The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

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Lord Durham, from Middlesex ; by the Duke of Devon shire, from Bakewell ; by Lord King, from D lintree, Tewkesbury, and several other places:; and by the Marquis of Lansdowne, from the Ward of Coleman -street, and from Rochester. The Duke of BUCKING HAM presented a petition from a place in Bucks, for the repeal of the Poor Laws. He thought it would be very convenient when Noble Lords presented petitions on the subject of Reform, if they would state whether they prayed generally for Reform, for some sp-cific R e form, or for the ballot. He thought it would be desirable to adopt the course pursued by the House of Com mons, namely, that of having a Committee appointed to enquire into the petitions. The Marquis of CLEVELAND, in answer to the Noble Duke, would say that all the petitions lie had presented were in favour of the Reform proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed that his pe titions were of a similar nature. Earl GREY could have no objection to the classification of the petitions proposed by the Noble Duke. He had in his hand a printed list of the petitions presented on this subject, from which it appeared that previous to the Bill being presented by Ministers, no less than 476 petitions had been presented, and -148 since the Bill had been brought forward had been laid on the table. 49 SUB-LETTING ACT. Lord MELBOURNE postponed the committal of this Bill till the first open day after the holydays. 46 • I. f The Earl of WICKLOW w i s h e d to know what altera -6 6 0 Lions the Noble Viscount wished to make in the Bill. 9 • 6 0 0 Lord PLUNKEI T sa id th a t th e object for postponing '• A 8 the committal of the Bill was to see what alterations mall O e 0 be made in it. 3 743 The LORD CHANCELLOR postponed the committal 6 it 6 of the Lunacy Bill till Monday, April 18. 0 1 144-- - _ - KENT PETITION. So. 11 . O 0 The Eat' of WINCHILSEA presented a petition in fa your of the Ministerial plan of Reform from the county of Kent, in county meeting assembled, where the High Sheriff presided. It was only signed by the High Sheriff, and could, of course, be received but as his petition ; but it was agreed to at a numerous and respectable meeting of the county, and might be fairly considered as expressing the sense of the county. This was the only petition that • had been signed by the High Sheriff where the meeting was unanimous. In order to meet an objection stated by a Noble Duke opposite, he moved that the prayer, which seas very short, should be read. It was read accordingly, and the prayer was to the effect that their Lordships would concur in passing the measure in all its parts. The Noble Earl, although he felt the inconvenience of incidentally discussing the measure on the presenting of petitions, took that opportunity of stating his cordial concurrence in the measure ; and lie denied, both for himself and for the pe titioners, that there was anything revolutionary in it. He maintained, in opposition to those who said that it was revolutionary, that there was nothing revolutionary in it, but the contrary. It detracted nothing from the genuine prerogative of the Crown, nor from the just privileges of that House, while it went to restore their just rights to the people. Return Rid pe- TO. t gross lection hours me the serous Is ever )es not ry) in didate e 74s e 71:•. O 445, e ?Ss. e 755. e 78s. e e 41s. e 41s, e 50s. to 338. c 318. e .`29s. hone. Load. Load. • Last. 4 atmeal. S 5 38 10 44 13 44 Earl CAMDEN remarked that there was a grea diversity of opinion in the county of Kent respecting the measure, and expressed some doubt whether the Noble Earl, as a Peer of Parliament, ought to give any opinion at the meeting. The Earl of WINCHILSEA had attended the meeting as a freeholder of the county of Kent, and conceived that, as such, he had a right to give an opinion on the measure. If the Noble Marquis thought that there was a diversity of opinion in the county as to the measure, he and those who thought so so should have attended at the meeting, that the subject might be there discussed. The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition from the Mayor and Corporation of New Romney, in Kent, against the Ministerial plan of Reform. The Sugar Duties' Bill was read a third time and passed. The Marquis of BUTE presented a petition from Cow bridge, in the county of Glamorgan, in favour of the Mi nisterial plan of Reform. The Colonial Lands' Bill was, on the motion of Lord GODERICH, read a second time, and ordered to be corn . 'flitted on the 18th of April. REFORM MEASURE. limitr Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved the order of the day - • ,"" for summoning the Lords for this day for the discussion of '• ; the Reform question. The order being read, his Lord- Ho'26 0 2.6 0 , hip'proceeded to observe, that he had new to move for . _ certain papers and returns, in order to call their Lordships' i 0 attention to a subject which, although it had for some time ) 5 0 ) 0 almost engrossed the attention of all, had not as yet come ) '230 f , • regularly under the discussion of their Lordships' House. ) 57 0 lie had thought it his duty to give an early notice on this , a,. subject, thi n ki ng t h at t h e di scuss i o n on the second reading would have terminated in the Commons sooner than it did. When he saw that it went on from night to night for seven nights, he withdrew his notice, and renewed it a gain after the Bill had been read a second time in the other House. This was tke state in which the question now stood. He thought it very objectionable to be dis co ng the subject incidentally on the presenting peti ticas, and for that reason his object was now to bring the matter before their Lordships on a specific motion. He s a id this much by way of apology to their Lordships for having at one time withdrawn his motion. He had another observation to make, personal to himself. lie stood in a similar situation to that of a Noble Friend of his, wh o had stated that he had some connection with the borough interest. He was perfectly ready to acknowledge that he had some connection with one borough. It was a connection arising out of, and incidental to, landed pro perty; and it was a connection which had lasted now up wards of one hundred years, and it was a connection which he had no reason to be ashamed to avow ; but in these days every man, on whom such a connection, 1 41 or supposed, could he fastened, was held out by t he public press to the country as not acting upon sound and just principles, such as should govern the conduct °f a man invested with so important a trust, but as being Influenced with nothing but base and interested mo lly". To those who knew him it was unnecessary that he should vindicate himself; but those who knew nothing of him personally he would refer to the whole tenour of his public life; and he would ask them to point out that Part in it which would' warrant the suspicion that he acted otherwise than on those principles which should be come one who had fur years represented the greatest county in England? He did not that night address their Lordships for the purpose of telling them that he was °Pposed to all Reform, but for the purpose, amongst other motives, of stating that he would agree to no Reform un less the necessity for it was proved. He might be told that the country demanded the sacrifice : it might be so ; but let it be:proved satisfactorilyjand conclusively that the coun try not only demanded Parliamentary Reform, but would be content with nothing less than his Majesty's Government PMpased to concede ; and he then, but not till then, w cnild entertain the question with a view to its adjust ment. He feared, however, that it could be shown that t he necessity for a too extensive Reform had been insisted I. ° l l l hy a great majority of the people, and he therefore felt 14 t, in present circumstances, the House was placed in a t i l tuation of muc h diffic u lty ; b ut , b e f ore h e went further, tie thought it right to observe, that he owed as little as 1 1 , 1 Y roan to Parliamentary influence. Whil e i n the other ; 1 -I ° l lse he sat f or t h e grea t es t county i n E ng l an d, having •,.!en freely and independently chosen ; and as to his seat ° that t h e i r Lordships ' House, he owed it to the persona l favo ur of th e M onarc h, an d to no resu lt o f P ar li amen t a ry I . l ,muen ee . He thought it the more necessary to advert to o I s _O a e cir cumstances, from the fact, that t h e pu b l i c m i n d s never so much excited on any subject as it was at the Present moment on t h e su bj ect o f R e form, at a moment, inwhen t h e P ress was beating down every port i on o f t h at nit ence whi c h h a d hi t h erto susta i ne d th e C ons tit u tion add Government of this country—when the Press held " W u: every man as a traitor who happeneil to b e i n any ay c onnected with any spec i es o f P ar li a m e ntary influ representing th em as utter l y un fi t t o pronounce an an lio upon one of the most important acts of legislation that ever influ ence d the fate of any country. That unfit nes, was but a do c t r i ne to which lie could not subscribe, c ontended, on the contrary, that lie was as fit as any an ma n could b e to form an impartial judgment, and deliver honest vote upon that momentous occasion. As to the sentiment of the people with respect to Parliamentary Re ftohr l ' c ountry ewas not s l ow to admit that the feeling throughout was strong upon the subject—nay, was irre sistible_ was impossible for any man to he so blind, what ever might be his rivate feelings, not to acknowledge the st rength of the sentiment to which he alluded. He was was aware that there had been at $ Party w hi ch held together merte ly al b l yti tmheesagitation c o o f u n t h t r a y t question of Reform ; but then, within the last three or four years, a material change had taken place—and at every county meeting—indeed, in every assemblage where speech could be made, or resolution adopted, there was a cry rai se d for Parliamentary Reform,to which almost inirket, np. 0 '2 o= t 2 0 2 k 0 2 0 ►t I 245. 1 leatis. .. IN (M 7s 0.1 2s Od 0 18. Id. 1 0 100 0 0 8 8 6 7 0 6 0 I '2 9s. 3d. f? —Oats. Bs. Od. Oat; ,—Oats. to 441. )ats. 7s. —Beef. 13. cwt. 0 % ' 11 I. Os. Od oaths! those a y e cz know—.•*'f led and - , it.elf • for art viouslg an likes telp Lusiverk te n the rtant Peelite. depart:. EIENKT N yzatt R.DoN.* FREE ; Mr. °use, of Rodney, oft.• Eaughter Esq., of er, Esq. T• Wil- 'Catfield. ;:ounk . 1 . E., q . of AT .... - 18' - ,~,~~~. to P. e 43; intr. s hear servo name names d. Th No. 12.026 every part of the. country responded ; and for the Anti-Re formers, there was rso backing, no support, in any part of the community, from any class or from any rank. It was then idle for those who had afforded them no assistance to come forward at that period, and blame them (the Mem bers of both Houses of Parliament), for conceding that which, were they adequately supported out of doors, they might long have been enabled to hold. It must be full in the recollection of the Noble Lords who heard him, that whenever the House of Commons bad brought under their consideration a case of noto rious and establi , hed corruption, they have generally passed a Bill for the disfranc hisement of t he place so con -- victed ; but their Lordships' House never contented them- selves with such evidence as might be laid before the other House of Parliament, but uniformly went into the exa mination of witnesses themselves. In doimt• so, they were, of course, perfectly right ; though he was far from saying that in all cases of that nature such proof should be de- manded as was ordinarily required in proceedings of a jn dicial nature. The first borough upon which sentence was passed was the borough of Grampound, and it was proposed to transfer the elective franchise enjoyed by that place to the great town of Leeds ; but that proposition was successfully resisted, and the franchise was in the end given-to the county of York. The transfer to Leeds was recommended on the ground that since the time when Grampound first sent Members to Parliament, there had arisen great manufacturing and commercial communities which had no direct representatives in the other House of Parliament, and that Leeds was a fitting place for the re- ception of that of which Grampound had been justly de prived ; but the opposite sentiments prevailed, and the franchise was transferred to the county of York. It was :bus that the question of Reform had been dealt with in years past, and it was the disregard of the then existing feelings of the R:.ople which led to the present state of po pular excitement. The next case that occupied the atten tion of Parliament was that of Penryn ; and upon that, as was well remembered, a long and tedious inquiry took place, and the proposition then was, that the franchise should he transferred to the great town of Birmingham ; but that Bill did not pass. The next case was the unfor tunate one of East Retford, and that he considered a most unfortunate case—one *hich conduced more than any other to the position in which they then found themselves placed. It was, as he had already stated, proposed to transfer the franchise to Birmingham ; but that pi ()position was negatived, and the franchise so disposed of as it was thought would best conduce to incrense the influence of the landed interest in the House of Commons. Had the Dli• nisters of that period, even at the eleventh hour, then come forward, and instead of imparting the franchise to the county of Nottingham, have held to the inhabitants of great towns a prospect of future representation, the Le gislature at the present hour would not have those diffi culties to contend against which the aspect of affairs now presented. Even at that period there did exist a deep feeling that Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham, and other places of that description should return Mem bers to Parliament ; but what was the vote to which the House of Commons came upon that subject ?—they voted, by 188 to 140, that none of those towns should be en franchised. He then proceeded to maintain that there had always existed i❑ the House of Lords as much readiness to promote the work of Reform as in the other House ; that was, to promote sound and moderate Reform. What was the state of things for some years hack ? There was not an election which took place in which it was not made a test of a candidate's fitness that he should pledge himself to support some measure of Reform. The Government, then, should have seen that the time was at hand when some- thing must be done, and they might then hare effected a really moderate Reform, without endangering the funda mental principles of the Constitution ; but how did they encounter the difficulty ? On the first night of the meet ing of the present Parliament, a Noble Duke, then the first Minister of State, distinctly intimated that he was averse from Parliamentary Reform. The effect of that upon the country was, he would affirm, most mis chievous ; and from that moment a more extensive Re. form than he could even look upon favourably became in evitable. The Anti-reformers were placed in such a situation that the measure was forced upon them. Upon that declara tion of the Noble Duke—for upon that the matter really turned—a new Government was formed upon the basis and principle of Parliamentary Reform; and his Majesty allowed the Noble Lord now at the head of the Admini stration to undertake the government upon that distinct pledge. In that condition of affairs it was morally impos sible any longer to resist the course of Reform : and he must say, that it was per force and most reluctantly that he became a Reformer—itovould be with the utmost re luctance that he should agree to any measure affecting the stability of the greatest and most able assembly to which a nation of freemen had ever entrusted their affairs : he doubted that they would ever obtain a better. Thal assembly, so much vilified, had long been the admiration of the world; but now it was held to be good for nothing, and that the sooner it was gotten rid of the better. But even yet it might be saved, if those who were willing to devote themselves to its maintenance received that support out of doors to which he thought they were entitled, and without which they could not be successful ; but he saw not where those persons were to be found willing or able to give that support—(Hear, hear)—such persons were not to be found, and all that remained for him was to de clare himself a reluctant reformer, and to consent to as little as possible—to yield the least that possibly can be to those who held that, in order to cure some existing evils, there ought to be thrown away all of good that in a legis lative form had ever been possessed by this country. On the appointment of the Noble Lord now at the head of his Majesty's Government, lie came down to the House and announced himself as a Reformer. Early in life he announced himself as a Reformer—as a moderate Reformer. Earl GREY said he certainly was desirous of going the length of restoring the House of Commons to its original purpose and character, and if possible to satisfy the just and reasonable expectations of the people; at the same time adhering to the known principles of the Constitution. Lord WHARNCLIFFE resumed—He begged distinctly to say, that the measure should not meet with any vexa tious opposition from him. He should oppose it, but not vexatiously; he raised his voice against it, because it was not a plan of moderate Reform, but the contrary. Pie confessed he thought there were many reasons why the present Government should not uphold such a plan of Re form as that which had been brought forward. The Noble and Learned Lord now on the Woolsack was re turned for a large county—by acclamation lie might almost say—and, as was the custom in that county, he stated to his constituents his political views and intentions. The plan he propounded upon that occasion for reforming the representation of the people did not by any means go the length, or anything like the length, of the measure pro posed in the other House, and sanctioned by an Adminis tration of which the Noble and Learned Lord was an portant and distinguished Member. Whets he looked at the present Ministry, and saw the materials of which it was composed, not only including the Noble and Learned Lord, but many Noble Lords the disciples of that one man, whom they all acknowledged as their master—of that one man, the force of whose eloquence would descend to a late posterity—whose life had been spent in opposition to Parliamentary Reform (but in political life they saw strange things), he would not say that pledges had been forfeited—he would not say that the present measure was revolutionary in one sense of the word—he would not say that it amounted to anarchy or spoliation ; it was a quiet change, but it was a radical change, for it went to tear up the Constitution of the country by the roots, or, at least, to tear up by the roots one of the must important influences that had ever been exerted in any political Con stitution—it went to create a popular assembly almost independent of any check—it was a change that, in his opinion, would endanger the Monarchy, and he conreived that it was not only dangerous but totally unnecessary. He agreed that in the present state of the country some measure was necessary, but nothing approaching the ex tent of the Bill proposed in the other House—nothing at all going the length of disfranchising sixty places altoge ther—o f taking away one Member from forty-seven places --of opening all boroughs to JO/. householders —of giving additional Members to several counties. It was then evi dent that every election would depend upon the voices of a considerable portion of the people, and that was said t o he a return to ancient principles; but:neither could he find any such rule of representation established in the reign of should o alwayst il al b b E e d e i n v. n l o l w l. b r e ff re i , n in th n a o t p o e r t E io r. la I i : 1 1 d . w l n t as had t e h e principle t h t a h t e t m h e i d o d t r e o h r l d o e u r s s e o ( f , r societyP rl i a i n : been held that one of the great merits of the British . .Con stitution was, that all classes of the State had thelrjoint LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 29, 1831. *are of influence in electing the House of Commons. 116 had spoken of the opinions of a great statesman now no more, but he should now quote the language of a living writer upon the Government and Constitution of England. (The Noble Lord here read an extract from the work to which he referred, which expressed an opinion that such ehange in the representation of the people as would render +he House of Commons a purely popular assembly would shut out talent front its walls, and would compell all young and aspiring men of talent to become demagogues by orofession—a change that must prove pernicious and dangerous to the State. The writer went on to con tend, that enlightened men of any class found their way into the House of Commons—land, corn .neree, and manufactures were represented.) Th e Noble Lord then went on to reply to the argument founded upon the anomalies which a foreigner would see in our Constitution who might observe wealthy and populous places unrepresented, and those which were ❑either wealthy nor populous sending Members to Parlia ment. He contended that the latter gave means of access to men of talent, and furnished opportunities of virtual representation to those new interests arising in the com munity for which the Constitution might not have made previous provision. Looking at the present advisers of the Crown, he found that the State was indebted for their introduction to public life to nothing more or less than the, working of the borough system. No doubt the Lord Privy Seal was an exception. The Lord President first sat for a borough. The Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department represented some very snug and close place. The Noble Secretary for the Home Department, when he no longer found it convenient to sit for Hertford, came in for a Close borough. The great abilities of the Noble Lord on the Woolsack first became known to the public by means of a rotten borough ; and when unsuc- ceslful as a candidate for Liverpool, and for a northern county, he three several times returned to a nomination borough. It was thus that at length he came to represent that place. But if the whole of the ancient system was to be reversed, men could only gain access to the repre sentation of great places by haranguing public meetings, and exciting the worst passions of the populace. The only persons who would be able to find their way into the House of Commons, under its new Constitution, would be those who should have attained popular favour and no toriety by making speeches at public meetings. Sur prised as he had been when he first heard of the Bill, he was still more so when be read its provisions.—(Hear. It had certainly been contrived to obtain in support of that measure more general and decided unanimity than had for a long period been manifested in favour of any other, and be confessed the more he considered the Bill the more was he surprised at that unanimity. He never read a Bill which was mere calculated for delusion.—(Hear.) — It was, indeed, exceedingly well drawn for the purposes of ;hose who prepared it. They had contrived it so as to catch the favour of almost every class of the people, giving to each a little advantage here and a little advan tage there.—(Hear, heir, hear, and a laugh.)—The delusion prevailed particularly in the provisions res pecting the county representation. Twenty-seven coun- ties, which, heretofore, had but two Members, were to have four under the Reform Bill. But if their Lordships would take the trouble to inquire into the manner in which the representation of those counties would be affected, they would find that the advantages would chiefly be extended to the manufacturing instead of the agricul tural interests : for in those counties there are large manu facturing districts, in which, it was well known to their Lordships, the influence of the landed proprietors was much less powerful than in other counties.—(Hear.)— Bnt even in the towns the suffrage would not be confined to the possessors of houses bona fide rateable at 101., for it would become the interest of the possessor to have his building rated at that sum. In the next place, the Bill gave the suffrage to the possessors of copyholds of 101. a year. Ile (lid not think that class of persons was very numerous; but if they were, still the landed interest would not derive much advantage from their enfranchisement. They were generally holders of small farms, and not usually the most attached to the landlords. The next class to be admitted to the franchise was the holders of leases, upon which a rent of 501. was reserved. That body also was not very numerous, and they were chiefly to be found in the neighbourhood of large towns, being for the most part a class through which the interest of the landlords was not likely to be increased. New he should ask where was the addition of strength to the landed interest, said to be conferred by that Bill? Fifty-four Members were no minally given to its support ; but he thought it could easily be shown that the addition would be chiefly in the manufacturing interest. A Noble Friend of his opposite had often accused him with having lost sight of his con nexion with the land in his earnestness to promote a branch of the commercial interest, which he generally ad vocated.—(Hear, heir, and a laugh.) But his partiality for wool, or for any other manufacture, could not lead him so far as that he should overlook the tendency of the Bill to strengthen the manufacturing at the expence of the landed interest. The number of persons to he admitted by the Bill to the constituency would be, as he had said, much greater than was generally supposed. At present it was the interest, and, he believed, it was very much the practice, of the householders in boroughs and towns to deceive, if they could, the tax or rate collector as to the full value of their houses ; but the Bill would give them and their landlords an interest in having houses of less value than 101. rated at that amount—(Hear)—for the sake of the suffrage. Now, what would be the effect of that qualification in the sixteen metropolitan parishes to which eight Members were to be given ? He had made some inquiries on the subject, and he found that there were very few houses indeed, in those parishes rated at less than 10/. He had met with one man in an exceedingly small house, for which, to his surprise, the man informed him that he paid 14s. a weeek. From another, who paid 121. a year for a small house, unfurnished, he understood that there was scarcely a house in that parish at a less rent. —(Hear, hear.) He did not think that the present Go vernment were aware, in the introduction of their plan, that it would make way for so extended a constituency. But they had now gone so far, that he did not know how the error was to be corrected. At the same time that they made that large addition to the number of voters, they continued the suffrage for lire to all existing freemen, except non-residents. Now, what was the result ? In Liverpool the resident freemen were several thousand, and when the 10/. rate payers were quali fied by the Bill, he could not well conceive that it would be possible to take the votes of the electors of Liverpool, which would then amount to 25,000, in the two days to which the election was to be limited. Perhaps some means were to be contrived for that purpose; but he must take the Bill as it came before him, and in its present state there was no provision to remedy the inconvenience to 'vnich he alluded. Next, as to the diminution of bribery, and of the expenses of elections, which the Bill was ex pected to effect : he had some experience 'upon that sub ject, and he was of opinion that in some respects there might be a saving of expence ; as, for instance, by taking the votes at several places. But any one who bad even the least experience in county elections, must be aware that the chief expence does not arise from the conveying of voters to the hustings, but from the employment of agents in canvassing the county; and that expence would be still in creased by the Bill. Again, there was a new expence in curred by the country for the barristers who were to go round every year to register the voters; and in the same way a new expence to the candidates, to whom it would be necessary also to employ agents to go round the county, to take care that their interests should not he injured by omissions of registration. That was a new and a great source of expence entirely created by the Bill. Upon those details of the Bill he would say no more until it came before the House ; but he hoped he had said enough to show the House and the public, that it was delusive to suppose that it was calculated to promote the interests of the landed interest. He knew that persons connected with the commercial and manufacturing interests ought to consider that what is good for the one must be good for the other; but still the fact was, that questions had often arisen, and would often arise, upon which the several interests were arranged against each other; and when ever, upon any such question, the landed should be opposed to the commercial interest, it would, inevitably, be defeated in a House of Commons constituted under that Bill. Did their Lordships suppose that in such a House of Commons the system of the Corn Laws would not be done away with.—(with.—(Hear, hear.)—Was not the aboli tion of thos e l aws a principal object with many who p ressed eargerly forward in support of the projected Ref orm.— (Hear, h ear .)—He would ask the Noble Lord opp osite whether he c ou ld un d er t a k e to say, that if that measu re were carried into effect, there would be no demand for fur- ther change ? He would ask him, did he suppose that the Corn Laws were not abolished, would the people to be now added to the constituency he content with a House of Commons who should continue that system.— (Hear, ` hear.) —Would they not refuse to send any Mem `,er who did not pledge himself to the abolition? (The Noble Lord, who was but indistinctly audible at the bar through the greater part of his speech, was here quite in for one or two sentences.) If he found fault ~„ with the Bill itself, its principle cr any part of its details, tie would confess that he was still more dissatisfied with the manner in which it had been introduced.—(Hear.) — lie alluded to the use that had b•en made of the King's name.—(Hear, hear.)—Which, although it had not been directly connected with the introduction of the Bill, had been so referred to as to suggest to the people that his _ . . . Majesty was himself desirous of effecting a Reform in Parliament.—(Hear.) —lie bad heard it said in excuse for that reference to his Majesty's name, that the sanction of the Sovereign was implied in the fact of the measure Tieing brought forward by his Ministers. But be could not admit that excuse. When the Catholic Relief Bill was brought into that House by the Noble Duke then at the head of his Majesty's Government, he (Lord Wharn chile) remarked full well that great doubts were enter tained as to whether the King was not adverse to the measure; and the Noble Duke was expressly asked had the King given it his sanction? To that question the Duke certainly answered in the affirmative. But that was very different from coming down to Parliament avowing the King's support of the measure, when no question was put upon the subject. But that was not all. He believed that it had been expressly said that Parliament should be dissolved if the Bill were not passed.—(Hear, hear, hear,)—lf ever there were a subject which required the deep consideration of Parliament, it was that measure, which, although called a Reform, was in effect a total change of the Constitution of the other House. Never, since the Revolution of 1688, had there been proposed a change in the institutions of this country so extensive or so important.—(Hear, hear.)—ln a deliberation of such a nature, it was not fit to attempt to frighten the Merrbers of the Legislature by , the King's name.—(Cheers.) —lnstead of that Bill bay ing ben yielded only to the demands and expectations of the people, it had been voluntarily thrown down at the feet of those persons who for years had bout labouring for the extinction of the boroughs, in order to forward their own particular views. —(Hear, hear.) —Every man in the country, Tory or Ultra Tory, Whig, Radical, or Jacobin, lifted up his hands in surprise at the announcement of the Ministerial plan. If the Noble Lord with whom that measure originated had taken the trouble (laying aside the secrecy in which his project bad been prepared) to ascertain the sentiments of the country, he would have found indeed that there was prevalent a strong feeling in fa. your of Reform, but not of such Reform as that Noble Lord proposed, and that even that feeling wag dying away. Nor did he think that if Parliament should be dissolved the Noble Lord would find his principle of disfranchisement to be very popular. It was quite true that the principle had been carried by a majority of one in the largest Flot“e that ever divided. But he well knew that many gentlemen voted against the Minister on that occasion who would have voted for a moderate Reform; and the only hope of many who voted with the Minister was, that in the Committee they would be enabled to make many es sential changes in the details of ft measure. There was one great objection to the Bill, of more weight, perhaps, even than the others, which was, that it would only serve as a resting place to those who have views far beyond it. If the House of Commons should now go even that length; it would still be said that the landed interest had too much power, and questions would arise over and over again, of which their Lordships might have at present no idea.—(Hear, hear. )_lt was not to be supposed that the Bill would prevent all undue influence over voters. .The rich possessors in the neighbourhood of the towns would still be able to exercise that influence. Moreover, there would always be new interests requiring to be repre sented ; for instance, the Colonial interests would claim their right to be represented.—(Hear, hear.)—Nor was it to be expected that Reform would render the Legislature on all occasions popular. It was not possible for any Le gislature to be always popular ; and God forbid that it ee tl e i essu•emrepasroe.d—t(ulltehaer, hear. )—The present question had been n oli t c he q u u l e ; st i i n on th ; e b o u n t au t e h i e p r a e tie w n a e s one f the class of its rights t o bestow them u p on another.—(Hear, Legislature was not depriving one great au difference Catholics hear.)—That great m easure was carried without the cons eurrence of the people ; but h ow o n a n y other g reat q ues tion could the controul of the popular feeling over the other House of Parliament be counteracted when that House should have undergone the proposed recon struction ? How should that House venture to carry any great measure upon which the salvation of the country might depend, contrary to the feelings of the people ? It must bo in the recollection of their Lord ships, that upon the important questions respecting bullion and the currency the measures of the Legisla ture were very much opposed to the sentiments of the ma nufacturing part of the people ; and could any measure, however important, be in future carried in opposition to their sentiments, should that Bill be passed? He was not alone in the opinion that the popular demands would not be limited by that Bill. He was borne out in that opinion by those who, for their whole lives, had been labouring to alter the institutions of the country.—(Hear) —and who, h e doubted not, conscientiously desired to have established here, if not a republic, at least a mo narchy nearly approaching to a reoublie, something like that which had been recently erected in France. He would reed to their Lordships the opinions expressed upon the subject of the Ministerial Reform, immediately after its promulgation, in a newspaper (the Examiner of the 6th of March), which advocates its particular views with great ability, and he doubted not also with great since rity :--" Ministers have far exceeded our expectations. The plan of Reform, though short of Radical Reform, tends to the utter destruction of boroughmongery, and will prepare the way for a complete improvement. The ground, limited as it is, which it is proposed to clear and open to the popular influence, will suffice, as the spot desired by Archimedes, for the plant of the power that must ultimately govern the whole system. Without Reform, convulsion is inevitable—upon any Reform, further improvement is inevitably consequent— and the settlement of the Government on the democra tical basis certain. If we supposed that the plan before us could be permanent, we should declare it insuf ficient ; but we have no such apprehension in an age of onward movement ; and we hail it as a first step to a b ( o ) t e 00 mu give rpl et shouldersteh o e u people r delt ee..aail,l deliverance. o y f s T v il a h, n ee t laa u nn t d i i t s, greate r good, and as a first step abandoning an abhorred takes the arms from their enemies. Like Sinbad we have afi‘ a .n l ir l csde g t. o at o fot d eldrta i " n dahor i edf t sr s :'tm operation of breaking up the old system— its faults are in its constructive arrangements—and the without night, g reat deficiency the omis s i on o f th e b a ll ot . W e h ave re peatedly assert e d, an d aga i n declare our conviction, that no ballotth but it i i s u n t o h t e n p ro i.e re . sen t state of the p eop l e ' s certain ilef°rm t i l s ra e t ffi da c y ien n t • succeed the political knowledge, the ballot will follow any measure on elections." Again, "On the whole, if it were certain t hat no ulterior Reform would ever take place, we should think that we had gained little by this ministerial plan. But the plan, as we have before observed, has an evident tendency to assist and facilitate ulterior Reform, by break ing up the old channels of patronage and sinister influence, a nd by forcing men to open out new ones, which it will be difficult to render equally smooth and easy." And again, If the proposed Reform had been introduced in quiet times, and had no ulterior changes, we question whether the alteration which it would have made in the composi tion of the Hous es wou l d have b een i n any respect an i B u t w i th an excited pubic, and a public psi ance of the ballot, fully possessed w i t h t h e i n the Members wh om this ineasure woul d send to Parliament must represent, in a considerable degree, the real feelings of their noinit,al constituents, or the cry for the ballot will become absolutely• irresistible. If we gain this Bill, therefore, we shall gain all ; and every nerve ought to be strained by every Reformer throughout the nation e mini for the success o f the • • stettal measure."—(The reading of those passag es w 1,,) as occasionally interrupted by loud cries of " Hear Thus, then, their Lordships would see what with was the feeling They (the which the Bill was to be received.— Reformers) would accept the advantages which it gave them, as the means of obtaining ulterior objects. —(Hear, hear.) The way in which the writer in that paper supposed the popular feeling would be brought to operate upon the Legislature was, that the people would PRICE 7D. work upon the House of Commons, and that House upon the other branches of the State. If with the aid of a 2owerful and popular Press, his ?Majesty's Government .hould carry that measure through the other House, and it should be sent up here, it would be the duty of their Lordships to stand between the Crown and the people, and to defend the Crown and the Aristocracy from popular , nervachment. He would call on them to consider well in what situation would that House he 'Awed should the Bill not pass. Parliament would be dissolved—or, if he could not positively assert that, as it had not been directly menaced, he would sly so hypothetically. If Parliament Cleo should be dissolved, would they not then have a con ventional Parliament ?—(Hear, hear.) In the House of Commons there would he no room for deliberation on the subject of the Bill.—(Hear.) It would then remain for their Lordships to decide the question : and was it fair that they should not he allowed to come to the deliberation uninfluenced by reference to the wishes of the Sovereign ? In God's name, he would say, let them enter upon the discussion freely, but not the measure to be driven upon thtan by force. In the other House it could not be freely discussed again. No Member for a populous place could give a deliberate vote. He must, he his opinions what they may, vote for the Bill—( Hear, hear)—or he should be sent to the right about. The new House of Commons would be an assembly of delegates e , p , cially appointed by the people to enact that measure. Under what circum stances then were their Lordships to discuss it ? That a Liberal and Whig Ministry should have placed them in that situation, he confessed did much surprise him. He had now gone through the observations which he had thought it his duty to offer to their Lordships, and he would not detain them longer than to express his opinion that the measure would be fatal to the Constitution, that it, would destroy the action of the different 'matches of the State upon one another, and that it would have a tendency to the introduction of a Republican Government into this co untry.—(Hear.) He concluded by moving for return, respecting the populations of the boroughs and towns of England and Wales. Lord Durtruot and Viscount SIDMOCTIT having risen at the same time, amidst loud calls for Lord Durham, Lord KENYON spoke to order, and claimed Viscount Sidmouth's right to address the House upon a point of order. Earl GREY, rising to order, said that be would take the sense of the House as to whether his Noble Friend (Lord Durham) should be heard in reply, he having first risen. Viscount SIDAIOUTH said that he would claim his privilege to he heard when he rose to speak to order.— (Hear, hear.) When his Noble Friend near him (Lord Wharncliffe) was speaking he was frequently disposed to interrupt him, and to speak to order.—(Hear, hear.) Ile never listened to any speech with greater pain. He much regretted two or three weeks ago, to hear his Noble Friend give notice of his present motion, and it had been with great gratification be learned that it was withdrawn. His Noble Friend had much disappointed hint by the re newal of that motion, for he felt that it would lead the House into an it-regular and anomalous discussion upon a Bill which was' not yet upon their Lordship? table. But he did not suppose that it was his Noble Friend's in tention deliberately to introduce the discussion. All that the House knew of the Bill was, that it had been read a second time, and was ordered to be committed. House of Commons itself did not yet know its details, which, however, his Noble Friend bad there discussed. Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that as the House had heard his Noble Friend out, he should claim his right to be heard in explanation. Viscount SIDMOUTH said that all he desired was to prevent the continuance of a discussion which was ob viously premature and irregular. The Earl of Etnox and Earl GREY rose together; after repeated calls for each from their respective sides, the former gave way. Earl GREY said that his Noble Friend opposite had not given any cause for complaint as to unfairness, or taking the house by surprise; for he had expressly stated, in giving notice of his motion, that his purpose in moving for the returns was to raise the discussion of the whole question.—( Hear.) How far it might be convenient or customary to discuss a Bill which was not before their Lordships, was a question which he would not undertake to decide ; but he thought that they could not with pro priety, in the present state of the discussion, prevent its proceeding, after the luminous and argumentative speech in which the Noble Lord opposite had stated his opinions• He could not agree with his Noble Friend opposite, that they might not discuss the principle of the Bill, although it had not come regularly before them, however inconve nient it might he to go into its details. He hoped, there fore, that their Lordships would not think it contrary to their orders to allow the discussion to proceed.—( Hear.) The Earl of ELDON said, that although he had not heard what fell from his Noble Friend at - the time of his giving notice of the present motion, yet, from the expla nation of the Noble Earl opposite, he must agree that his Noble Friend had not acted towards the House with any degree of unfairness. However, having sat in their Lord ships' House for more than thirty years, he was, several times during the speech of his Noble Friend, strongly dis posed to put a stop to a discussion which was directly con trary to the whole course of Parliamentary usage. It was not merely because the Bill was not before the House, nor because it might perhaps never come before them, that he took shame to himselffor not having interrupted the Noble Lord when he not only entered into the premature discus sion—when he not only argued upon the details of the Bill—but stated the motives and intentions with which Members of the Lower House of Parliament had voted in its support.—(Hear.) Nothing could be more irregular than the speech of his Noble Friend in that respect.— (Hear.) He (Lord Eldon) would take no part in the di vision upon the present motion. In following that course he would not be suspected of disrespect to his Noble Friend or to the House ; but he felt he was much to blame for not having risen to order during his Noble Friend's speech ; and he would therefore not take part in the divi sion of a measure which had been introduced in a manner than which nothing could he more revolutionary of the usages of that House.—(Hear.) The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he admired the candour and self-accusation with which his Noble Friend had expressed Isis regret for having listened to every argument that could fairly be brought against the general principle of the Bill, and to a good many snore than could fairly be brought against its details. But if the House acted upon the suggestion of his Noble Friend, and put a stop to the discussion in its present state, would it not go forth to the country, that, while the people were hang ing in breathless suspense upon the fate of that measure (respecting which the unanimity of their approbation was admitted by its opponents), a speech of great force, elo quence, and clearness against that measure Lad been lis tened to for two hours by their Lordships with the utmost patience, and that then, at the end of that speech, it was discovered that the discussion was disorderly, the measure not being yet come regularly before the House? Making that discovery at the end of two hours, they cried out, " Oh, we have been so long irregular—in God's name, let us stop now--don't let us exhaust our whole stock of irregularity at once.—(A laugh.) Every man is irregular sometimes, just as every man will now and then eat un wholesome food ; but what should become of a man if he were to eat it all at once?"—(A laugh.) There was oc casional irregularity every where—at the Bar, and in Par liament, as, indeed, he had seen snore than one instance that night.—(A laugh.) The Noble and Learned Lord had tolerated the irregularity whilst it was against the Bill, but he would check it at once when it was likely to dz.-. in favour of the measure. He agreed with his Noble Friend that the discussion should be confined to the prin ciple of the Bill, and that its details should be attended to sparingly, and only for the sake of illustration. His Noble Friend had acted fairly and candidly in giving notice of the present motion ; for he informed the House that he would bring forward the whole question for discussion. Lord DURHAM said, that when he first presented himself to their Lordships to reply to his Noble Friend opposite, Ile would not have persisted in opposing the Noble Viscount who then rose to order, but that, as a Member of the Government, he felt himself especially called on to answer the objections of his Noble Friend to the measure to which he (Lord D.) was himself a party. He regretted, for the sake of the Noble Viscount, that he then gave way, because the Noble Viscount had been himself most disorderly when he rose to order.—(Hear.) For he rose—not when the Noble Member whom he pro posed to call to order was speaking—not before the ques tion was put from the Woolsack, but when a Member of their Lordships' House had risen to address them.— (Hear.) The sense of the House, he perceived, was so a a t dd r re a sse s dp ee l c : 81 1N )le ob% s leatly against stupping the discussion in its pi - writ staff. He (Lord Durham) was always unwilling to engage three tihraetutiionn;vibiiucthmothreeypair, a ti i c u l l ) a e r e l n y fe \lover. But he was then Weased to have an opportunity of making explanations, and of correcting err oerous 'lions, and explaining miscalculations which had bian spread abroad,—(Hear.) No man could mare readily than he acquit his Nob'e Friend of personal views in bringing forward his motion; arid whatever imputations might be cast upon him (Lord Wharneliffe) for his oppo . ,iriori to the disfranchisement of the close boroughs, he (Lord D.) would be the last man who would attribute that Noble Lord's conduct to personal and interested consider...a ions. With respect to what his Noble Friend had said on the subject of warning, he would ask what warning could be more serious than that of the Press ? There could be no greater proof of the unanimous feeling of the people in favour of the Reform, than that which was af orded in the unanimity of the Press, which, with few exceptions—and they very low—supported not only Ileform, hut that particular Reform which had been pro posed by his Majesty's Ministers. His Noble Friend ac knowledged that he was unfriendly to Reform, but that he was new aware that it must be carried in some shape, and he gave as one of the reasons wherefore it could now be no longer delayed, that his (Lord Durham's) Noble rela tive near him had formed a Government with the express sti pulation that Parliament should be reformed. But surely, if his Noble Friend thought that any one was to blame for that, it must be the Sovereign himself, who bad given his sane tion to the measure, and had allowed a Government to be formed on that condition.—(Hear.) Sorely the fact that the Government had been formed on the express condition of effecting that measure was quite sufficient to free the Ministry front the charge of having made an improper use of the King's name in its introduction. But, what-- ever use was made of that name had been ocaasioned by the efforts en the other side to represent his Majesty to be unfriendly to the measure. Now, as so much had ben said of the circumstances under which the Bill had been introduced, he would. Iwo 5a,14.-under what circumstances had the present Administration come into office ? Under what circumstances had the late Government retired? He was sure they had not done so from any wish to be released from the burthen of authority, but from a want of confi- dence in their own power to carry on the Government. lie believed, more especially, that the assertion of the Noble Duke opposite, not wily that no Reform was neces sary, but that if he had the power to form the Constitu tion anew, he would make it as like the present as possible, it was his opinion that that declaration of the Noble Duke forced his Administration to quit office, Their doing so was not owing to any party combination, nor either to the vote on the Civil List.—(Hear,) For he believed that several Members of that Government were desirous to retire, re gretting the declaration of the Noble Duke, and feeling that he had lost by it the confidence of the nation. It t'me Noble Duke would consider well the whole course of con- duct of his (Lord Durham's) friends—as, for instance, upon the Catholic question—he would perceive that they had shown themselves willing to give him any support in their power. On that occasion they had allowed him the credit of carrying that measure, through his' opposition to which he had excluded them from honour and preferment, and had secured to himself place and power. He gained the consent of his Ma jesty on the ground of expediency, which they had vainly urged on the grounds of good policy and justice. Again, the support which the Noble Duke's Administration bad received from them, en the occasion of the Irish Freehol ders' Disfranchisement Bid, showed further that they had formed no factious opposition, and that they were disposed to support the Government in all measures to which they could give their approbation.—(Hear.) From all those circum•tances it was plain that the Noble Duke had re tired, not in consequence of any combina'ion amongst his (Lord Durham's) friends, but in consequence of the Noble Duke's own declaration. But the present Administration was accused of in-policy and rashness in bringing forward the subject of Reform. Now, he would ask, in what state did they find a great part of the country ? The manufac turing districts were in great disorder—Kent, Wiltshire, Hampshire, Sussex, and other counties, were a prey to in ceru:iaries and nightly plunderers. The peaceable inhalti tants were shut up by night in trrror in their houses, and were exposed by day to insult and violence. The magis trates were in many parts afraid to act, and made no at tempt to enforce the laws or to restore order. He doubted that even the great powers of the Noble Duke opposite could have succeeded in the pacification of the parts of the country which were so disturbed—(Hear) —without the . assistance of the middle classes. By what other means, then, he would ask, could the assistance of the middle classes have been obtained for the restoration of peace and tranquillity, but by displacing the Goverment which had declared its determination not to restore to them those rights and privileges of which they felt they had been so long de prived ? But when an Administration came into office, pledging itself to restore those rights—when that class of people had come forward on the faith of those pledges —when tranquillity bad been restored, as much by those means as by the firm, but he trusted merciful, adminis tration of the laws ; the danger being passed, would it not be most unjust and impolitic to disappoint the sea sonable expectations which bad been raised by the pledges of the Government?—(Hear.) If any mea sure could have been devised, by which the Government would have redeemed its pledges and saved its credit, with out fairly satisfying the just expectations of the people, he thought it would have been as impolitic as ungenerous of the Government to propose such a measure. When be heard it said that the country would he dissatisfied by the extensive disfranchisements of the Bill, he could only meet that assertion by another. It appeared to him that by that part of the measure they gave the greatest satisfaction to the whole country.—(Hear.) He believed there was no part of the measure which would give greater satisfac tion than the abolition of the rotten boroughs. By that measure, and by the admission of a large and respectable constituency, at the same time that extravagant claims had not been yielded to, they were enabled to say that never was any measure, originating in the Administration, re-N dived by the country with so much and so unqualified ap probation. If public meetings, and the petitions to both Houses from England and Scotland, anti the declarations of the merchants and bankers of London could be supposed . to speak the sense of the country, lie could not fell. that the apprehensions of his Noble Friend would be realized in in the event of a general election. Even those persons who might be disposed to go further than the Government had proposed to go, have declared that they consider every ra tional ground of advantage to them and to their country would be conceded by the present measure. He could as sure the Noble Lord, that with the people, at least, the disfranchisement of the rotten boroughs had occasioned no dissatisfaction. Wben he heard the Noble Lord speak of Grampound, he could not help asking, did he forget the shameful proceedings in that borough, exposed in the evidence before their Lordships' Rouse ? Could they have been supposed to be earnest in the wish to give an effectual representation to the people, if they refrained from the disfranchisement of those boroughs? If then, it was necessary to effect the extinction of those boroughs, he did not think that a fairer, or more complete mode could have been adopted than that stated in the Bill, considering that it was desirable not to pass by one of them.—(Hear.) In choosing the line of distinction. between the places which were to continue, and those which were to cease to have representatives, the Ministry had not been governed by a particular predilection for any particular Member, but they had fixed upon that amount of population which would serve to exclude from the re presentation all those boroughs which decidedly belonged to the class called rotten. He was sure that his Noble Friend apposite would acquit the Members of the Govern ment of any personal and selfish motives in their choice. They had made it solely because it would affect the object which they had in view, and not to promote any improper or corrupt purpose. It had been insinuated that he (Lord Durham) had taken advantage of his plan in the Government to promote the peculiar interests of the city with which lie was connected by giving it two Members. The county of Durham had been included on account of the large population it contained, and the rule was gene ral, including all counties which possessed that degree of wealth and that number of inhabitants. If Durham were excluded, the exclusion on the same around must extend to ten other counties—the North and East Ridings of Yorkshire, Shropshire, Northamptonshire, Cumberland, Hampshire, Worcestershire, Nottinghamshire, and Leices tershire. The population of • Sunderland and the Wear mouths amounted to 33,000, and Shields was also 80 populous as to be entitled to the privileges extended to other places of similar extent. With two of these places he had no connection on earth ; he knew nothing of them beyond the knowledge given by his interest in the c ounty of Durham—with the third place he had no mote con nection than his Noble Friend opposite (the Marquis off Londonderry), who was so strenuous an opponent (,) the measure. Thetefore, were he (Lord D i s u d rh i a ie n e ? , capable of being influenced by such :motives a h s o l east the insinuated, facts would not bear out thosehattv he hail no imputation—(hear, hear.) God knewe that none. Parliamentary influence, and had !h i r t ef ha ve Upon the existing eyetein nu& I fee Voters who were e e er l iae i r. ; ;l b rina u e:tnbsett?: might, raitst.:_bteh tr:d(tivin.inaeoa,rrti: : :kj a : bati l)esisafeas easily n .ht u i a c ti been oe were in