The Sun. — London, England, 1825-06-08 00:00:00

P4 7 ,KI 4 I.XNINT. .4 4 For the Pitoti*EmNas of the HousE .of LORDS!, see the Fourth Page. 'HOUSE OF COMI'IONS, TUESDAY, "' tiNE 7. COMMITTEES ON PRIVATE BILLS. 114 r. LlTTlsETo44.eaiel, after the, numerous complaints of the dolay, expence,'ind injustice of the delay arising out of the zonetatt of Committeite on -Private Bills,. he thought: it high erne to institute an,ieguiry as to how . far it was p r acticeble ; to femme the disadvantages at present existing in the practice of l'..tese Committees, and •eritlethar view he would move the ate. Ft: cement of a Select Committee to take into consideration the constitution of Committees on Private Bills, and report to the House their observitlons and opinion's thereon. - He - thought he teeciald be able to propose a plan to the Committee which would eo considerable way towards remedying the evils complained ef ; het if his suggestions were not adopted, the Committee wooled still have it iiu . their power to devise a remedy which wnald have the effect of obviating the difficulties and delays to which he had alluded. Mr. S. BOURNE seconded the motion, and expressed his epin'on that Private:Committees were, as at present constituted, too numerous for any good purpose to result from their pro. eeedings. He hokd the plan of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Littleton) might preveto be effectual, and that in future Com mittees would, in care and patient attention, a little .more re semble the Juries brought together to determine the rights 'of their fellow-subjects; than they did-at present. Sir I. COFFIN thought no Member of a Committee who had not given his beet attention to the previous - evidence and argument, should bevermitted vote in the decision. . The motion was then agreed to, and.theCommitteeappointed accordingly. CORONERS OF IRELAND. - Mr. S. RICE presented a petition from the Coroners of counties in Irelend e peoying the revision of an Act .passed in the 3d of Geo. IV. respecting judicial officers in Ireland. After an observation from -Sir - J. NEweonsr and Mr.-J. Su its!, the Petition,was read. On the question that it be or, tiered to be printed, . Mr. S. RICE seid; 'his only reason for- notebringing in a Pill to revise the statute in question, in compliance with the prayer of the petition, was the lateness of the Session ; added to this, he understood the dudes of the office of Sheriff in Ire land were at present under consideration of the Commissioners of Inquiry, and he preferred waiting the result of their Re pert previous to introducing the measure - he had alluded to. The petition was then ordered to be printed. • , REGULATIONS . OF THE CUSTOMS (IRELAND). Mr. S. RICE presented a petition' from the Chamber -of Commerce, Dublin, praying that the Bill for the Regulation.of the Customs do pass into a law, and expressive of their satis, faction at the appointment ,of coal-meters connected with the Customs.—Ordered tube printed. TIMBER DUTIES. Sir H. PA RNELL presented a -petition from the Builders of Dublin, praying the House to take the duties upon timber into their serious consideration. The Hon. Baronet said, he would take that opportunity of giving no ti c e that he would, on a future day, when the consideration of the New Customs Bill afforded an opportunity for so doing, move that the proposed . duty of 21. 10s. per ton on timber be reduced to 11. per ton, the original amount of the duty.—The petition was ordered to be printed. PUBLIC WORKS AT BRIGHTON. Mr. HUME moved for Returns of the Cash Accounts of the Commissioners Of certain Public Works at Brighton since the year 1810; also The amount of the receipts on account of the coal duties in thht town, payable at the rate of 3s. per chid dron ; and the grois sum expended On public works since the same period.—Ordered. PIRATES HEAD MONEY. Mr. CROKER moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Bill fe discourage Piracy. e -:It was read a third time and passed. " FRIVOLOUS WRITS, OF ERROR. Mr. Secretary PEEL rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill, to correct the practice of Fictitious Writs of Error. — The object of the Bill was to throw obstacles in the way of future frivolous writs of error, and this was among the first ' fruits of the improvements intended to be adopted, and grow. ing out of the increase of the salaries of the Judges, which the House had a few eights age consented to. He need scarcely to inform the IfOuee, that the effect of a writ of error was to supersede the execution of a judgment in the Court of King's Bench. It was Zees always granted on application, as a matter of course. In the yearii 1817, 1813, and 1819, the number of writs of error obtained in the Court of King's Bench alone, in cases wherein judgment had been given, amounted to 1197. . thet of those 1197,. there were 158 cases in which application was merely made, the writ obtained, and no farther proceeding alien. In 702 cases judgment had been affirmed ; in 336 the proceedings were abandoned by the party applying; and cut of the whole 1197, there existed but nine cases, in which ateitment was made before the Court above,_ and but one instance in which the previous judgement of the Court of King's Bench had been reversed. So t h a t amon g all these 1197' writs of' error,. there were only nine melee in which They 'had been sued out to- any valid . purpose, and only one, as lie had said before, in which the judgment was altered.— 'Wear, hear!)—He could not brit look upon the delay. generally of twelve months, which thus occurred, as a most 'enormous grievanee...—( Hear f.)--:The Chief Justices of the seve rel Courts had been_entitled to the fees, upon suing out writs of •erroy, but by substituting an increased salary for those fees, as was lately done, ehefees now became the property of the pub lic ; and he thought the public could not do better than aban don their claim to Such unnecessary fees altogether in mos in sta eces. Under a Statute of JaMes I. a very salutary obstruc tion had been interposed to vexatious and frivolous writs, by .requiring the appellant to enter into recognizances to the amount of double the sum at issue. It would he the aim of the-bill he should introduce to the House to produce the same effect. In "all such cases the appellant must ie future sue out his writ of error at his own peril, and give bail to prosecute the suit. He meant this provision to apply to all Courts and cases in which write of error were obtainable. The Right lion. Member con ,cluded by moving e fer leave to bring.in, a Bill to prevent the ,praetice of ruing out frivolous writs of error.—Leave given. SHERIFFS IN IRELAND. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the Rev. Henry Wil liam. Stewart, of the county of Cork, praying for an alteration in the system of law.as far as it , related to the office of Sheriff in Ireland. Sir J. NEWPORT supported the prayer of the petition. fIUME asked the Right Hon. Secretary opposite (Mr. Peel) if it was theisitentioe of his Majesty's Ministers to take aey steps in the case of a refusal on the part of a Sub-Sheriff to answer interrogatories? Mr. PEEL replied, that a bill bad been already introduced for that purpose. The petition was.then ordered to be printed. BOROUGHS Or :BANBURY AND WEST LOGE: Lord NUGENT said he was entrusted with petitions from the boroughs of Banbury and West Looe, relative to the right of election, and complaining of what they considered an unjust usurpation upon that point. As the subject was one of consi derable importance, he would not present the petitions at pre crest, but give notic-of his'intentiOn to do so on Tuesday next. • CORN LAWS. . . Lend EBRINGTON presented a petition from ceetaineec. eepiers of land at tfertiton, - in the county of Dei , on, praying for a revision of the Corn Laws.---Laid on the table. • clluilcg RA'I'LS (I BLAND). . • . Sir J. NEWPORT brow fit up the "Rep o rt orthe Irish 'Church Rates Bake—The Bil l was ordered *to-be read' retliird tune on Friday: next. - LUNATIC TRUSTEES- Doctor =rEfILLIMORE breirght up the Report of the Lenatic Trustees Bill.- The Report, with 'the amendments, wee agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Moeday next. . • gC I AP' AND CANDLES. r. SYKES roeeetepropOse a motion for the adoption of ifte` House, respecting which he .had given a notice of some days sianding. Lt was not, his intention,, by his present motion, to disturb. the financiet.arrarigements of the Right H. Gentle man for-the presenttyear. He :was only anxious to be able to say to his constituents on his return to the country, that he had done something tbr.thegoed of the lower erders of the people.. It was true that theeletteeein wine arid spirits had been mate rially lowered, but einem did,not in the least affect the agrictil.' turel population. They preferred 'a reduction of eaxation affect , ing themselves, to that Which would only relieve those who were wealthy enough to bear those itnpests for they dealt very little, if at all, with articles which were o nly calculated - to give them -red noses anti - bloated . bodiese---(Laughie.g.) — A clean shirt and clean linen were with - them essential t exuries, and from those they were . frequently debarred by the very high duties on anise) and candles. Whatever had been , done in the way -ef• the reduction of duties, nothing had been sug gested .by -the- Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) .which tended to relieve the poor man..-- The poor were more affected by the tax on soap and c and les , than the rich pels* : could be. The actual price of a pound of candles .sets only ftKir:pence, the -duty thereon - a penny,' and yet every one knew that she effect •of-&e duty was' to increase the price enormously 'to the ; consumer. It was, besides,, a -most vexatious tax Id the collection. - The conseq uences were, that the regular -trader; 'wild; paid duty; was driven dolt Of , the- tudeket by the ; ectn;rabaild who could always. -afford iii seudecseU the fair dealer, touch, ie.l.pw the dee:pence of duty. Together with this duty, that on tallow imported, and, the duty upon barilla, the maker of soap was taxed to the amount of 1201. per cent. on the article.' And, strange as• it was to say, the smuggler) profit, though only about . 30/. p_er cent. during the war, was at present 1001. per cent.— Tbe conseqUence was, that' smuggling was carried, to such an extent, that Government was defrauded of a' million sterling in the article of :Soap only, and thq;fair trader was driven out of the market, for he was unable to compete with the illicit dealer in this article:. He could shew, that, with an in creased consumption, the duty had been on the decline as to its amount; and he must subnilt, that it was not more than a de crease of 3250 lbs., which paid duty less in 1824 than 1823, - his ease was made Out. Contrasting the years 1823* and 1824, he felt himself authorised in saying, there would not be less than twenty thousand tons of tallow consumed in the illicit manu facture, aid here he should observe, that twenty thousand tons .of tallow yielded nearly forty thousand tons of soap, with the barilla and other ingredients. Taking the duty at 281. per ton, it would give 1,120,0001., of which it was clear the Government would be defrauded, and the fair tradernt course must be cheated to that extent; but if it were only half that amount, he Contended that his motion deserved the attention of the Right -Hon. Gentleman opposite. The duty on soft soap was but lid. per pound; yet, this was in its principle a most impolitic duty, because it was, to a great extent, returnable by drawbacks and allowances to exporters. It only produced a gross 42,0001., of which - 14,000h:.at least was allowed as drawbacks. Now, he contended, that it was impossible even to knock the smuggler On the head, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer reduced the ant `5O per cent. In regard to candles, there was an equal temptation to contraband - dealing. This tax, from the Circumstance of the arts and chemistry having ministered so very amply to luxury in the higher orders of society, by the invention of go-light anti argand lain, hardly touc hed the rich, and fell with an almost exclusive severity On, the poor. Nay, so unjust - was its principle, that the nix pressed on the Poor with respect to - the mere quality of the - cat ldle, the poorer party, , using the dipped candle, paying at the rate of 12 per tent. duty, whilst the richer, .usingalie'mouldi, paid only 10 per Sent. In submitting his motion to the House, he felt both au thorized and encouraged by the ekrimple of one. Of -the most il lustrious patriots that the House ever had seen within its walls tie meant the intimate friend of Milton, the celebrated An drew Marvel. He was anxious, like that great man, to stand, well with his constituents, and apply himself to the attempt to 'relieve them from that sort of taxation which pressed partial.-- larlyon them.. It was that great man's habit to submit the course of conduct he had pursued each night in the House of Commons to' the approbation of his constituents at Hull, by a post letter, and so grateful were they for his attention that they, in the homely custom of the times in which they lived, returned his solicitude and care in kind, by continual littlepresents, more indicative of their gratitude than wealth, such as a large home made loaf and even a flitch of bacon, by the coach. He could not follow the example of that illustrious man so far, but he Made it a rule yearly, as he went down into the country, to ac count with those who sent him to Parliament, and he felt he should not do his duty, or be able to face his constituents, less he induced the House now, not to consent to a present re duction of the duties on soap and candles, or their total repeal, but to induce the House to accede to his motion: " that it was expedient that, as early as possible in the next Session of Par liament, or as soon as the state of our finances would admit, the duties on soap and candles should be .greatly reduced." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he would with pleasure bear evidence to the Hon. Member's zeal towards the interests of his constituents, in his attempts to revive the good old custom of receiving fr om them th, well-earned reward of his exertion, by a flitch or a gammon of bacon.—( Laughing.) —He, himself, had no claim . on those• constituents in particular, but if-the practice of the olden time were to be carried tato effect, he certainly might - not be imagined sanguine if he thought it probable, that in &short time he might find a few hogsheads of good old wine in his - cellar; from the circumstance of his having been accessary to procure for the public this article of consumption at a much cheaper rate than formerly.—(A laugh.) —To lie serious, he felt such an instance of the good will of parties interested, was by no means - either desirable or politic. —(Near !)—He premised, as his first obserVation, that this tax or duty had been pretty much the same for the last one hundred and thirty years, and in saying so, and expressing his inten tion to oppose the motion, he felt it wit; N ery unlikely that he should receive as a testimonial of their kindly feeling, even a flitch of bacon, from the Honourable Gentleman's constituents this. summer. —(Laughing.)—He, however, had done some thing, and that through a conscientious -Motive only, in pro posing to the House reductions to, the amount of 1,500,000/. in the regular taxation of the country, • together with many small anti private reductions in taxation, which, though they had added little to the receipts of the Revenue, were, however, very prejudicial to parties engaged in the respective businesses, on whom these trifling taxes fell with accumulated weight. if this resolution were passed, he contended that it would have the most prejudicial effect on the soap and candle manufacturers, who would be left totally in a state of uncertainty, whether the Howie would, next year, carry the resolution into effect or not. What was the burden against which all the outcry had been raised ? It was no more than a tax of one penny on the dozen lb. which cost 45. -114 d. ; therefore, it was the addition of one penrry - ,to . that amount,. which he was sure could have nolo. &lenge on the price of the article. In fact, the variation in the price ot,candles bad nothing to do with the tax, as, in 1814, the price of a dozen pounds was Its. 2d., while at the present , day it wits no more than 4s. IlAcl., and during all that period the tax was the same ; it was therefore pretty evident that the tax did not regulate the price—but -if he were disposed to re duce the duty, he still must object to the present motion, on Account of its being so inconvenient in form, and as being likely to produce so much confusion. He should, therefore, oppose the motion. Mr. HITME said, that the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman .was exceedingly fallacious; the tax added at least' gifper cent. to an article which entered iota) the consumption of the lowest classes of individuals, and one on which it was de sirable to fix the smallest price. Instead of candles being sold at 4s. Hid. the dozen lb. or 40. the lb. as had been stated by the Chancellor of the Eichequer, lie believed that it would be found that they could not be procured under Bd. per lb.—the Excise added 33 per-cent. in addition to the price of the material, before it came to the market; the Excisealaus fell particularly. , heavy upon tallow, and if it could be got rid of it would leasen at once the price of candles by one-fourth ; by taking off' the penny,it would reduce the price of candles from Bd. to sd. per lb. The argument of his Hon. Friend could not be met ; if the Eicise were to be taken off, every pohnd of soap and can dles used would pay the- duty, which made it desirable that it should be removed, on the principle also that those taxes which added to the price of the consumer ought to be first taken off. Mr. Alderman WOOD wished to say a word or two in favour of a class of persons - .whose interests had been overlooked—he meant the miners—who worked under ground, night and day, by candle-light, and who were, from the hardship of their - lives, peculiarly entitled to the consideration of the House. It was peculiarly hard on those people that they could not make candles for their own consumption ; they were not allowed to do it, as candles were an exciseable article. The tax ought to be repeal. ed ; the country could very well affoid it, if it could afford to give 6,0001. per annum to the Duke of Cumberland, in addi tion to his enormous grants and emoluments. Lord A. HAMILTON' was desirous of saying a few words on the subject, as he had presented a great many petitions re lating to it. The petitioners had volunteered to prove, before any tribunal, that the tax was an unproductive one to the re venue, and - that it was a great- bonus. to the illicit trade. He wished that his Hon. Friend had made his motion for the im mediate repeal of the taxes,- instead of deferring it till the next Session. Mr. lIERRIES remarked, that the argument of his Right Hon. Friend, was, as to the impropriety and inmolicy of the re peal of those taxes now—and, if in die next Session, circum stances should admit of a further repeal of takes, it could not now be stated with propriety - when the repeal t!ould take place. .Mr.,SYKES replied. Some further discussion aook place, in which Mr. N.-Calvert Alderman Wood,. and- Mr. Monck, participated, but of which (owing to the confusi'on arising from strangers having been ordered to Withdraw) we could not catch the import, . Tice motion was then negatived without a division. 'FICTITIOUS WRITS OF ERRf.YR. Me. - Secretary PEEL beanglit in a Bill fpr ille . abolition of ) Fictitiorm Writ s of Error.'Right Ilon,,,,(lentlenian that in moving, t hat it . tie read 'a lust time, lie r veould only ob-. serve, for the information of -those Gentlemen-who might not have been in the floi.tse when he:obtained , lesaie to bring in. the Bill, that its object was to rostra d;t suing; out of frivolous writs of error, for the marepirpoieS of delay.—( Hear, hear !) The Bill was then reed a firstaime and ordered to be read a second time on Friday nein - IMPRISONMENT IN INDIA. Mr. HUME said, that he moved, two years ago, for returns of peradns confined by the several Governments of India, with out the form of trial, for reasons ef state policy, or other pre tences of the lake nature As the powers of arbit r a r y imprison ment was in all countries to be watched jealously, so there were reasons which made it particularly desirable that there should be strict limits put to its exercise in India. The peculiar cha racter of the country, and the defenceless state of the people— their distance from the supreme Government —every thing • tended to create objections' to the exercise of the power of im prisonment without first instituting legal proceedings. (The Hon. Gentleman here made some allusion to a former debate, in- which the Right Hon. Secretary of State for Foregn Affairs had been understood to express a wish that there shOuld be a law passed toprevent appeals- to the supreme Government from the decisions of the Presidents in Council.) He considered that this observation of itself greatly aggraiated the dangers of abuse„ He did not say that Europeans had often been imprigerted trarily;' but there could be no doubt that many natives of high caste, must have suffered unclercircunistances of hopelessness and solitude, to think upon which must be appalling to the minds of free and enlightened Englishmen. At all events, if expediency re quited the posses s ion of such a power, or policy called it into use, thegreates t precaution s would be necessary for itsgeneral controul. He concluded by moving for returns of all persops imprisoned by the Governors in Council of thee - several Presidencies of Bengal, Madras, and Bombay, without the institution of ju dicial proceedings,)and without a verdict obtained against them; distinguishing the number in each government in each year ; the time, place, and all other circumstances of their ac tual imprisonment; the causes which induced the govern menti thereto, the periods of confinement, and the age, sex, and rank of the parties. Mr. WYNN said that the Returns were,incompletefor Ben gal, which was the most considerable presidency, though for the others they were made - up. He agreed in the principle of . . the Hon. Gentleman, that the power of arbitrary iMp r isonment, ought to be rarely exercised, and that it shotald be carefully' watched. But there were circumstances which made it im possible for the Government to do without it in India. Indivi duals might, in consequence of the wars in which they .were engaged occasionally with the natives, and other political cir cumstances of a threatening and disturbed nature, be subjected to restraint or actual imprisonment from the necessity of the case, without -any reference to their guilt or innocence. The sons of Tippoo Seib were under the strict observation of Go vernment. He could easily conceive :reasons which would make it indispensably necessary to restrain their liberty, though he was not aware of an offence-which could be imputed to them. He had no objection to the motion, though he did not believe that the returns would furnish any good grounds of 'complaint against the resident governments. Sir C. FORBES wished that the Hon. Gentleman had also . moved for copies of all the :lien - tone's forwarded by such pri soners through the channels of the Indian Government to the . Court of Directors here: In many cases these memorials had been withheld as he himself knew in the case of the Rajah of Adnapoor, who had cent three Memorials to the Court of Di rectors, neither of Which had been received. If this were done in one case, no. doubt it was done in 'many otherti. The Go vernments of India did not wish to have:their conduct inquired into here... The more frequent the corriplaints from India, the better; as it would urge upon the House. the necessity of in lfoiry. He bad on a former occasion" felt regret at. the opinions which fell from the Right Hon: Gentleman (Mr, Canning) then, President of the lkiard of Controul, as - to the necessary controul which ought to . be exercised by the Indian Government over natives of rank and influence. He trusted, however; that Par liament would do aemething to abede the evil. Mr. Secretary CA NN ING.—".I, Sir,, should not have of fered one word upon this subject'ditl it ,not appear to sue that I have been quoted during my absence; and, as far as I have the means of judging, as incorrectly as the charges made in my presence certainly are. I confess, Sir, I do not recog nise as mine any of the sentiments imputed to me,. and now that I inn reminded of the circumstances alluded to, I must say that not only are they nothing like those which have been stated but quite the reverse. The case before the House upon the oc -casion referred to was,.that of European bankers who had made loans to Native Powers in. India ; and an attempt. was made to get the Supreme Government to interfere with the Native Powers in behalf of these European ;Bankers. And the opi nion that I put forward then was, that the Supreme Govern ment ought not to interfere in respect of these loans, which were made in defiance of the Law, there being actually a law prohibiting such loans. This, Sir, is my opinion still, and ever has been • for I consider that all the disgrace, and all the scan dal brought upon the British name in that quarter of the globe, have been effected by loans made to Native Powers by Euro peans.—(Hear, hear !)—llow then, Sir, could I, with such feel ings, have cone otherwise than discountenance the inter ference of the Supreme Government, whose interference with Native Powers, it is well known, is command and extortion ?e— -(Hear hear !)—lf one rupee of such loans be still owing , 1 wish that my voice may reach to India to dissuade the Native Powers from paying it—to let them know that the debt was contracted illegally, and that they cannot be compelled to pay it.— (Hear !)—Now, Sir ; having stated the course which. I took when the question was before the House, I leave you to judge whether I have been fairlyrepresented in my absence. I know not to which of the two Hon. Gentlemen I am indebted for the misrepresentation. I find some difficulty in ascertaining that, there seems to be such a community of interest and feeling between them. One Hon. Member did not even know whether 'the paper was in his own- pocket, or in the. pocket of the other. —(A laugh.) —They remind me, Sir, of the friendship of the two Gentlemen in the Spectator, who were of one opinion, had but one idea, one'religion, and one hat I"—(Much laughter.) The two fron. Gentlemen, Mr. II tralE and Sir CHARLES Fonnns, rose together, and endeavoured to speak at the same moment, amidst the continued laughter of the House. Sir CHARLES FORBES explained. He had only attri buted to the Right Hon. Secretary, that when he went to India he would no doubt find it convenient to carry such a-taw as that4lluded to in'his pocket. For his own part he had never been concerned in any loan to a Native Power. He could eel., tainly have no objection to the wiehes of the Right Hon. Gen tleman delivered in such a thundering tone. Mr. HUME contended that the Right Hon. Gentleman had completely forgotten the part he had taken upon the occasion in question.. Ileeliad said no more in his absence than he had said before id: uncontradicted, He might probably wish to forget :the sentiments lie had formerly uttered. The complaints of the oppressed in India were less attended to than they should be by the Government. Thelnotion was then agreed to. - Mr. HUME then moved for Copies of al,l Memorials or Re presentations km' the Governor or Governors of, India relative to the employment of Hindoo-Britons, or Half-Castes, as Jurymen. Mr. WYNN did not object, and the motion was agreed to. HALF-CASTES. . • • Mr. HUME moveittOr a Copy of the Minute of Connell of the Marquis of Hastings in the year,lBl7, .xelative to the em ployment in Constitutional Offices of the Hinnoo-Britons. He understood there would be no opposition' to. the production of the paper. Mr. WYNN said, he had told the Hon.. Member some time ago, that there was an objection. He had not been able to find any minute ofthe nature moved for by the - Hon. Member, and the notion therefore would be useless as it now stood. Mr. HUi%ll said, he would withdraw the motion till he could furnish further particulars. REV. MR. BRYCE. Mr. HUME snored for a copy of . the minute by which the Rev. Mr. Bryce, Scotch Presbyterian Minister, was appointed Secretary to the Committee of Stationed- He also moved for a copy of the duties of the office, and of any correspondence that had taken place on the subject. The appointment itself was a most improper one ; it was not sanctioned even by Go vernment here, and it was for opposing it that Mr. Bucking ham had been sent out of the country. It was necessary, there fore, that they should know the particulars of it, especially as Lord Amherst persisted in keeping him in office. Mr. WYNN thought no grounds had been laid for the pro duction of the papers moved for. The appointment had cer tainly been disapproved of by the Government in this coun try, and directions sent out to that effect. Delay had occurred in the execution of ihose•directions, and fresh ones had. been dispatched. Mr. HUME contended, that the grounds of opposition of the Right Hon. Gemlemany were only so many reasons for their having the documents'. before them in order to form their own judgment. Sir C. FORBES thought that good grounds had been laid for the motion. Mr. DENAIAN NU pported the motion. When there appeared a difference of opir.ion between the Government in India and the Gevernment of this country, there was, lie thought, good ground for an Hon. Member to move that the documents be . laid before the House He was surprised that his Hon. Friend was not allowed to withdraw his motion, and hoped the House; upon division, would grant the motion. Dr. PH ILLIMORE observed, that•the Hon. Member could not be permitted tA2 withdraw. his motion. ; because he would' bring it forward again. The Hon. Member was never more Mistaken in his life, than when he said that Mr. Buckingham was sent away from India merely for leaving opposed the ap pointment of Mr. Bryce. He wets sent away for a series of aggressions, and was, in fact, frequently threatened by the Mar quis of Hastings. Mr. THANT supported the motion. . • • • • The House then divided— - 74 - __4B For the motion Against it . • , Majority against the motion. THE COURT OF CHANCERY. Upon the admission of stranger , : into the gallery, we found Sir F. BURDETT on his. legs . , moving "That an humble Address be presented to hiS majesty, praying that orders may be given that the evidence taken by the Commissioners appoint ed to inquire into the practice of the Court of Chancery, be laid before the House." dlr. Secretary PEEL said he rose to oppose the 'Honourable Baronet's motion ; solely upon public _grounds. The question was not a party question; :Ana he ahottld only ,treatit as it in volved the public interest. It must be considered that the time would come when. the:.whole would be laid without reserve before the House. There could be no resonable objection to wait until this period, when the House would have the advan tage not only of , the evidence, but of.the report containing the opinion of the . Connissioners. Helms ready to admit, that the opinion merely, .witliout.the ,evidence,, would 110 be-satis factory ; but when bUtlywere joined, they would afford the Very ; 14cst,matcrials for the House to - decide upon.. :The Com missioners would have concluded their labours before the next Session of Parliament, and the subject.would then come fully under consideration. It was without precedent for the House of Commons to ask the Crown to produce the evidence taken -before the _Commissioners, without the Report con taining their opinion. Such a course he would consider as an- unnecessary interference- of the .House, by which no public object could be advanced. He felt a decided objection to have a portion of the evidence produced, because subsequent evidence may counteract the impression which should be creat ed by the former evidence. Under all the, circumstances, it inustbe admitted that no public- neasure . coulti he founded upon die production of the evidence Moved by the Han. Batt., without the Report of the Commissioners. The Comthissioners had already sat no less than 70 times, and bad examined 45 Wit nesses. Some time must elapse before the evidence could be _presented to the House. It would take the House some time to digest it, and at this period of the Session its production could not lead to any-measure of practical utility. Besides, to publish the evidence without the ; report would prejudice the measures intended to be suggested by the Commissions. In thus opposing the Hon. Baronet's motion, he freely admitted the importance of the measure, and disclaimed; upon his honour having any intention to prevent the. fullest inquiry.— He strongl hoped that an efficient remedy may be discover ed for the delays complained of in .the Court of Chancery.— This he said, without an intention of throwing blame upon any, individual, or admitting that any individual was-respon sible for the evils complained of. As an honest man, he thought some inquiry was necessary, and felt pleasure in anticipating that the House would be in possession at an early period of the whole evidence, together with an ample Report. Indeed, he was one of those who thought the subject was of such impor tance- and extent that it- should. have been presented to the House in branches. He had that day personally communicated with an individual who was supposed to be peculiarly concerned in this inquiry. He said supposed, because it did not ap pear to him that the Lord Chancellor, to whom he alluded, was particularly interested ; but that Noble Lord had unqualifiedly concurred with the House in the necessity of an inquiry, andstias strongly of opinion that some remedial measure might he agreed upon ; and that a full Report would be ready to, present before' Parliament again assembled. In his (Mr. Peel's) opinion, it was; better to wait for this and see the result: He apprehended that it must be three weeks before the evidence could he printed and he repeated it was impossible to adopt any practical remedy at this period of the Session. Another objection was, that if the House consented to the Motion, it would be a practical superceS sion of the Commissioners' labours. The Commission was coins posed of individuals who had employed much time in the con sideration of this subject. In . the months which had elapsed they had seventy sittings, and examined forty-five witnesses. The inquiry was conducted in the most open manner, and everyone who conceived himself in possession 'of any intents's - - tion was allowed to be examined, without reference.to the.effect of such evidence upon any person or party.—( Hear !_)—The -House should pauie before they pasSed this indirect censure -upon individuals employed diligently and actively in the public service. Such a line of conduct in his (Mr. Peers),,opioion would rather prejudice than promote the intentions of the House, anti on these grounds'he felt bound to give his reluc tant opposition to the Hon. Baronet's motion. Sir FRANCIS BUItDETT said this subject had long been under the consideration of the House, and he thought it most important that Honourable Members should be put in possession of all the information which could be had on it. His object was, not to waste another year without applying some remedy to the crying evils connected with the Court of Chancery. He did not impute blame to the Commissioners, but he believed that Commission was com posed of individuals having other duties incompatible with their full attention to this inquiry. He did not consider such a Commission likely to produce much good, when it was consi dered that the Lord Chancellor was at its head, who had been sitting so many years in the Court where the evil was growing, which required a remedy, and which that Noble Lord, lie dared to say, !.considered no evil at all. After considering attentively what had fallen' from the Right Hon. Secretary, he (Sir F. Burdett) could see no reason for withholding the evidence from the House. He thought it must be desirable that the public mind should be turned to the subject. He understood the Com missioners were greatly restricted in their jurisdiction,. and he confessed himself of opinion that their report could not be con sidered as matter of public interest, although the evidence taken before them should be considered matters of much interest. The evils arising ou t of the practice in the Court of Chancery wereof such magnitude that all classes were-concerned in them. There was no family Which had not felt the delays already alluded to by-the Right Hon. Gentleman in terms so creditable to himself. '1 he evil was so notorious that there was little necessity for the opinion of Commissioners. It was the duty of the House of Commons to find out a remedy for an evil whit' was growing more destructive every day. It was well known that the Court of. Chancery had grown up in an extraordinary manner, and was not founded upon constitutional principles anti practice like the Courts of common law. The proceedings, too, were different from these of the Courts of common law, which were founded upOn common sense. He thought the evils of the Chancery Court would be greatly diminished if the proceedings could be asstd. milated to the practice of the Courts of Common Law—if oral testimony should be accepted instead of that worst kind of evidence—affidavits ; lie did not mean to suggest the absolute exclusion of documentary -evidence, but to :abolish the system Of accepting only the worst kind of evidence when the best was at hand. Under the present system of practice, however desirous and anxious the Lord Chancellor may be to admi nister speedy justice, he had not the means. If the situa 'Sion of . Lord Chancellor was burthened with ma many duties, let - the business be divided amongst as many Judges, as should be necessary, but let us not be obliged to pursue justice through such dilatory, ruinous, expensive • courses. There were many evils cOnnected with this Court, and arising from it. He should only allude to the appointment of Commissioners of bankrupts. There could be no worse tribunal than a Commission of Bank taPtc.V. There were seven Judges under the title of Bankrupt Commissioners. This system was a cause of ruinous litigation _and Oxley, as well as fraud, with which Bankrupt Commissions are known to abound. There were 70 places given to young barristers who had obtained no professional eminence, as a thing to begin with. This Was a matter of patronage for the Lord Chancellor; and it would be observed, that. the situations were not - given to; those. best tionlified, nor With the View which ought to direct in such appointments. Leaving these details, he was at a loss to see what mischief could arise from the production of the evidence. It was the duty of the House of Commons, and lie hoped the next sessiOn would not pass without the discharge of this ni,*fl to inquire not only into the proCeedings of the Court of Chance: v, .:d into but also a , into the proceedings in the Courts of Common Law, the general administration of justice. lie understood the pru- ceedings were more, expensive in Courts of Law than they were in Courts-of Equity. His' (Sir. F. Burdett 's) object was only to put the country in poSsession of all the information which could be obtained. The 'evidence, and not the Report, was material ; and as great mischiefs had confessedly arisen from delays, he hoped the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel)' would change his opinion, and allow - the papers to be produced,' which he (Sir F. .Burdett) expected to hive been ordered as a matter of course. Mr. HURST expressed himself strongly in favour of the motion. The delays in,Chancery were; he observed, most op pressive. In a suit in which he was engaged, and, which he eventually succeeded in gaining, be was obliged to pay 81.173.6 d. for every. 10/. herecovered.—(Hear !) Mr. NV. SMITH said, that when his father was on his death bed, hn had called him to say, that the Chancery - suit, in which lie was so long engaged, had tertrinated last week, by the death of his opponent. Now this suit had lasted for two and thirty years.—(H ear; hear !) Mr- Secretary PEEL thought the Hon. Baronet was mis taken as to the extent of the. Commissioners' jurisdiction. -He (Mr. Peel) had no objection to lay before the House a copy of the Commission. If the,licin, Baronet 'renewed his motion at the co mmencement of the Session, he (Mr. Peel)".Would be dis posed to take a different view of it. As to the. anxiety, of Mini ster's to attend to the administration of justice, it was evinced • _ by the introduction of an Act which would be' brought before the House that evening to regulate the issues of triVial/erits of error.' : • . Mr. PENMAN highly applauded the Right Hon. Gentle man for the Bill to which he had alluded. .• fle hacVnaddubt of It being one of a series which highly benefit the - country. But it was .to remedy an evil farm - it:ly well known and extensively felt. Now the grievances of the Court of Chancery.were of this kind ; and therefore it was they asked to have some immediate steps taken upon the subject. It was the. House of Commons that must work any good in this business after all. The Com- Mission, consisting ea number . of Gentlemen who, sparsim, as it were, for an hour or two, stolen from other avocations, met together to consider _of this matter. They had now been sitting fifteen months, and there was no prospect of a Re port. The evidence certainly ought to be before that House. A respectable Solicitor had stated, that when an order of Court was drawn up, it was not - to . award• the patties their rights, but to pay in part the costs of the solicitor. He was not aware what difference there Was between furnishing evidence to the. House from Commissions and from Committees up stairs. Last year the Insurrection Act for Ireland was founded altogether on.the partial evidence of a Committee, and if the production of the examinatiOni 'before the Chancery COnlrnis sion only led the public gradually to understand • the practice and abuses of that Court, it would do great good. He might also observe, that he underatood there. was now a Committee sitting up stairs on the Combinations, and that althodgh the evidence of the masters had been .cAref'ulfy taken, yet, that the evidence of the mein in their own justification had not been.re ceived and, 'notwithstanding a law was to be introduced on the testimony of one class - -toflwitilesses.-('Cries • - of No, he . was very glad to hear the .rutnour con tradicted from so good a source. He would, however, insist, that if any thing showed the public where a remedy was, to Ire found for the evils of the Court of Chancerv, the evidence before the Commission would have that effect, and from the public only had he any hope of seeing the grievance redressed. He had abstained from all . personal allusions to the Noble Lord at the bead of the Court; but he could not,avoid' saying, that in that House there appeared an extraor dinary tenderness in speaking. of ,that sited individual, and from them, therefore, he had a very tri * anticipation the re. medy would proceed. But without , say i ny personal fault attacled to t!:e Lord Chancellor,_ he might • te, that on the first day of last Michaelmas term there were . lls causes in his Lordship's paler; and that the same 45 causes remained itt the paper on the last day of that term,—(Hear, hear!)-not one. of them having been touched in the. interim, although each of the plaintiffs and each of the defendants, if ten or twenty in number, had to pay, One poimd, 'for •each day. their cause stood in the paper. Such was not a way for. public . justice to 'remain in. It might he said that business was now chiefly disposed, of by motions, hut. of that course •he. (Mr; Denman) disapproved as ,tending to create a : prejudice itv the mind 'of the Judge, and preventing that full discussion which_ was requisite. He did not wish to. say any thing harsh of the Noble Individual in- question, thOugb God knew he had no, dis Position to lavish compliment~. in that quarter; but all we knew of his conduct was, that'.foi 25 years that he witnessed the practice in Chancery, he made no attempt to reform it. He should support the motion of the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Westimnster. The fact that the Bight Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) had seen the Lord Chancellor in the course of the day. would give no confidende to the public in the groundi on which the present demand was resisted. Sir, PEEL, in explanation, satd, 'that he only saw the Lord Chancellor fOr the purpose of ascertaining the probability of the CoMmissioners making a report at an early .period. His Lordship had.= the slightest objection to their making a • re port as soon aspossible.—(lJ ear !)—The report would and ought - to be made before the next Session of Parliament. P.coutrEN A Y thought the Commission would bring their labours td a more successful issue than was anticipated by the other aide Of_ the Muse. for.one had nererdenied the existence Of delays and abuses in Chancery, and that they. ought to be, remedied. He had at the same time .resiested the appointment of Committees of that House to inquire into the subject, hecause he was convinced they were not competent to . redress the grievance. The complaints theewere made showed. that remedies must be applied to particular - parts—nor was it till this Session that it was said the whole system of Equity ought to be swept away. The Commission appointed last year was if any thing of ,more extensive bounds than those proposed for the Committee. demanded by the Hon: and Learned Member for Lincoln. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then read the title of. the Commission which he 'condeiVdd embraced as-ex tensive a view of the subject as words couldexpress. It also went to ascertain whether any part of the buSiness- of Chancery. might be withdrawn and submitted to other tribunals, particu larly the hearing bankrupt cases. The CommisSioners .had also fully gone the length of their .powers and invited the first testimony, and he therefore saw no ground for the assertion oL the. Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that no confidence ought to be placed in the Commission. The Hon: Gentleman here read an extract from a .Work of Mr. Miller's on the Court o_ Chancery, in which the superiority of the system established there over that of the common Law Courts was referred to the later period at which it was introduced,• and the more Intel ligible phraseology employed. The passage went' on to say, that the only detects arose from the technical 'subtleties intro duced in a refined age. These were the errors he (Mr. C.) ad mitted, and wished to see reformed. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman proceeded to argue, that instead of the system being bad, the people of the United States, who were our great rivals in commerce and freedom, adopted it as the best which could be devised. 'ln corroboration of this opinion, he read a pas. sage from a book written by a Chancery lawyer of New York, in which the Earl of Eldon was eulogized as an ebb; and deep thinking Judge, and the system of English Equity highly ex tolled. The practice of the Court was in short the only part of it which needed reform, and the Coniniiesion was best qualified to recommend the necessary emendations. Under these cir cumstances the House would say whether any advantage would. be gained by withdrawing the duty entrusted to the Commis sion, and proceeding with it themselves. The House ought to see what opinion the Commission came to before they declared it unworthy of all confidence ; and the character of the Ccmi.: mission 'was, he thought, a sufficient guarantee against their becoming the willing instruments of delusion.—(Hear !) Dr. LUSHINGTON should . votelor the motion of the lion. Member for Westminster, because he considered great benefit would resnit from giving publicity to the evide n c e . By that means the subjects would be discussed, and the Commissioners themselves be more likely to arrive at ; the end they had in view—a just decision. The great bulk of the evidence lie, as one of the Commissioners, could state, was now taken, and written out, and might be laid, on the table ri a very short time, nor would the publication of the evidence be injurious to the public. The objects to be attained were tlnee i —to see that the system of the Court of Chancery was good—that the practice was good—and that the Judge who presided was a good one. The first was not in the province of the Commis sion ; but the second expreesly was, and the third incide4tally came under its consideration; and would necessarily be adveie e d to in the Report. He was also certain, that when the time cams 3 110 e1 n i.. 7 his it p s o nl lit e ic tri a b l e o ll pi vi ni o o u n l s. d fiwi were r c e h w . f r e o l l m k their : du t y. lll ie h a F d o neitherim - favours past to be grateful for, nor favours. in future .to hope, and if he found any opposition from..any quarter to a full and fair prosecution of the inquiry, lie should state it openly to the- House. Having said this, he should next mention, that al though the Lewd Chancellor was at the head of the C ommission, he stated at the outset that he should not attend duringthe ex amination of the witnesses, lest his presence should obstruct their free examination; but. that' afterwards he should assist and furnish any explanations and information in his power.-- He (Dr. Lushington) should also admit, that they could not as: yet have made their Report, without its being.most imperfect. . An unavoidable delay was occasioned by the illness of the Vice- Chancellor, which was, however more than compensated by the advantages which the ennmissioncis subsequently derived from his Honour. He hoped the House would accede to the present 'motion, which would do a great deal of good and no evil. — Points of difficulty and discrepancy in- the evidence would be elucidated, by their being submitted to the public. . Mr. LOCKHART should have supposed that the conclusion at which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman' who juste sat down ought, to have arrived at, would be the rever se of that he had' avowed. The facts lie mentioned proved that t Report ought rather to be delayed than granted. The moment the evidence was published it would be debated in that Houses and the judgment of the Commissioners themselves be there -1)y 7. U RST explained: warped. He should oppose the.motion. • . 11 authority 7 t, A y -flYbi ß i C se. ; R ?n A g l 1 :: ,1 *hat no inconvenience would be Mr by accedi to the motiOrrs::" . conceived they had the bight. great advantage would be I,::,coneequence. It Publishing the evidence, _ that to tr e public in his opinion that they co uld . • -eight th erefore to of the Court of Chancery, and the public . ' on the sub be put in possession of all the information possibiw 4 - t t e ject., As to the Lord Chancellor, no . man when he ... alone look for w a as ßeforoe gave more satisfaction 'or ever brought greater qualification!. the duty—but the complaints in the Petitions which had bees from time to time,presented to that House was of the delays. re suiting fro m the'llianner in which the Earl of Eldon disposed' of the business before him The grievance of the charge woe' the inconvenience arising from, having ,causes placed in the paper postponed from day to day to the great expence of the parties. Days, weeks, he might say 'years, were thus wasted, and he wished some' Hon - . Member would move to have theme papers for a certain 'period laid before the, House, that the names on them might he compared. e -(Hear !)—The system in this way got into discredit Which it did not deserve. Neither could lie avoid complaining of the manner in which the coot mission was composed, nor'ef the delay now required before the" Report would be laid on the table. .If the House wished to act with sincerity, it would accede to the motion, which .had his Cordial support,: Sir M. W. RIDLEY rosefor the purpose of replying to alt. assertion whichhad been made . kiy the Hon . .. Member for 'NO" tingham (Mr. Denman) respecting the Combination Laws. He :said there had been a greater number - of men than of . masters examined. He recommended that the attention of • this Hous e should be directed, not only to the Cetirt of Chancery, but ,t 0 the other Courts of ) , :quity, and particularly to the Court of ES' chequer, which required at least as much reforrh. The Hone.. Member, alluding, to the sketch which had been drawn of thr; character of Lord Eldon, Witliams'a Book, read.an ee tract from a number of the Idiiiktrgh Review, in which Lori Eldon's professithial attainniente and the qualities of his min . • were spoken of in term's of high commendation.' Mr. JAMES considered the. Court . of Chancery not as °I Court of Equity, but a Court of Robbery.:—(Hear! and * • - BROUGHAM could have wished that some Hon. Mer o A " • l h a e uil r gi li hr ad . attempted to answ er th e o b serva tion s of his Hon. 10 7 Learned Friend the Member for Caine (Mr. Abercromby), b u t nothing. of the sort had been. undertaken. As to the -1 1 ° ° ' Baronet (Sir M. W. Ridley),' it was' only natural that, eon" ' fleeted as he was to the leoidChancellor, he should have fl; pressed himself in th e term s th e Ho use l a tely heard, whi c h. • were most creditable - "no' his heart and feelings. There 'sal in short, no Man more a mi a bl e th an th e. E a rl of Eldon —n ot that he (Mr. Brougham) had the felicity to speak from a vete- acquaintance with the Noble lord—but front his o bser" , ration of his 'conduct on thealench—which exhibited tuivarY,: ipgcourresfto all, and forl which lie equalled, if not exeel le ", any other Judge in the-country. •Thia led him.(lllr. Brotlgha w i to remark, that •whenever - any man felt it his deity- W SP", ; " harshly of the judicial cond uc t o f th e L or d Chancellor, he le' k•