The Sun. — London, England, 1861-03-12 00:00:00

L E T N 141 TELEGRAPHIC INTELLIGENCE. PARIS, TUESDAY MORNING. The discussion of the Address was continued yesterday in the Corps Legislatif. After speeches from, MM. Gouin and Konigswarter, M. Kolb- Bernard attacked the principle of non-intervention 48 applied to nationalities, and opposed the policy followed in regard to Rome. He maintained that the policy of England had been victorious in Italy, and asserted that the policy of France had become, in spite of herself, the support of revolution in Italy. lie thought he perceived signs of an intention ott the part of France to surrender Rome to Piedmont, and concluded by urging the Government to adopt a truly conservative policy. " The moment has a rrived," he said,, " to choose between principles Which give life and those which destroy. Let us not lose sight of the fact, that there is some thing worse than a subverted bovernment, and that is a goverment NS hich follows a suicidal policy." Billault replied, "The Government protests a gainst the preceding speech, and against the re proach that the dignity of France had been lowered, and against the imprudent menace that disturbances - might break out in the country. I shall afterwards show that the policy of France 18 Catholic, but at the same time Liberal; that it has never been Ultramontane, and finally, that it Will remain a French policy." M. Baroche, in the name of the Government, de nied that France was agitated, and said, "Agitation only reigns where hostile parties mask themselves in Order to attack the policy of the Emperor." TURIN, TUESDAY. In the Chamber of Deputies Signor Zanolini, President by seniority, yesterday resigned the chair to Signor Rattazzi. Signor Zanolini expressed a hope that Italy-was about to complete her unity by transporting to Rome the capital of the kingdom. He 'also ex pressed his confidence that the deliverance of Venice WEIS approaching, and eulogised Garibaldi. Signor Rattazzi then took the chair, and in his sPeech applauded the tenour of the speeches of Prince Napoleon and M. von Vincke. He also paid tribute of praise to Garibaldi. He was confident of a solution of the questions of Rome and Venice. Count Cavour, in presenting a project of law, Proclaiming the Kingdom of Italy, said, " Italy is completing the , work of her constitution, and is kaking herself one country by laws and institu tions as she is already 'one by origin and language. "On the occasion of the opening of the Parlia ' Mont you saluted Victor Emmanuel under the new title which Italy, from Turin to Palermo, has accorded him. You will confirm it, as the Senate has done, by your unanimous suffrages." PARIS, MARCH 11. The discussion of the address took place today in the Corps Legislatif. Flavigny criticised the policy of Piedmont, 'Whom he reproached with ingratitude towards France. He called upon the French Government to a;., —oavow the policy traced out by Prince Napo leon.. Baron David defended the policy of the Em peror, and pointed out the hostility entertained at Rome against France, and stated that the Pope was misled by those hostile influences. He desired that the Pope should be invited to make serious reforms, and that in case of refusal the French troops should he withdrawn from Rome. Such a course of pro eedure would, he said, respond to the feelings of the country. Baron David was opposed to the unity of Italy, and thought that Piedmont ought I ° accept an Italian confederation, preserving the linariate Of the marctievarta — v - in - uriu, cu. ISCCOnd Italian kingdom being formed by Naples and Sicily, and Austria entering the confederation with Venice. Baron David regretted the ingratitude of Italy, Who, he said, manifested the same esteem for Eng land as for France, just as if both countries had rendered equal services to Italy. Touching the interior policy of the Emperor, Baron David expressed his satisfaction. He also expressed a desire that honest men should alone be Chosen for public functionaries ; that the system of administrative decentralisation should be extended and should include the autonomy of the communes; a nd,.flnally, that the press should be emancipated. Left sitting. FRIBOURG, MARCH 11. The Sardinian Government has sen t a protest to the Federal Council against the pastoral letter of the Bishop of Fribourg, which contained a violent attack against King Victor Emmanuel. To this protest the Federal Council replied that it was not concerned in the affair, and referred the Sardinian Government to the Government of Fri bourg. The latter stated that the French bishops had Promulgated more violent attacks upon Victor Emmanuel than had the Bishop of Fribourg, a gainst which the Sardinian Government had not protested. PESTH, MARCH 11. M. Doak and M. Szalay have been elected by accla mation as members of the Diet—the former for the inner city, and the latter for the Leopold stadt suburb. In the other electoral districts the voting is pro eeeding in perfect order. POLAND. Advices from Warsaw state that the commission of investi g ation under General Liprandi was making Most minute inquiries into every circumstance con nected with the recent disturbances. The subscrip. tun' opened to erect a monument to the memory of the persons slain on the 27th of February had pro duced a considerable sum. Two regiments of Rus sian infantry marched into Warsaw on the night between the Bth and 9tb. Additional troops were expected. The city remained perfectly tranquil, and, thanks to conciliatory measures taken by the Emperor, it was hop e d t h at the actual difficulties would terminate without further demonstrations. NEW PHILHARMoNrc CONCERTS. The first of the series of concerts an t n o n k ally given 1 1 Dr. Wylde under the above title , a o ve place at St. James's-hall last night. It was ' entertainment. The principal pieces in thery good gram me were Beethoven's overture to goionr.ro piano- 8 9mphony, by Schubert ; Mendelssohn's vio l in Arabella concerto, played by Vieuxtemps ; Weber's forte concerto in E flat, played by Miss „ .. ( loddard ; and a couple of vocal p ieces, sung- by Iviadame Lemmens Sherrington. Perhaps some e lcoption might be taken to a selectio n which in cluded two long concertos for solo instruments, while there was not any symphony. of a great clai tal°al master; and the objection might be a good Zig were it not that the concertos w ere com p osed v .Y. Mendelssohn and Weber, and per formed b y .2euxtemps and Arabella Goddard. The hall was well filled, and the various performances were much 4PPlauded. PLYMOUTH, Monday.—The ship German, of Lon "cell, from. Melbourne for London, was sighted in the Chan /1,,,e1) off Plymouth, on Sunday. The Sarah Newma n, from skczlepta for London, 92 days out, was off Pl ymou th on ua.Y. Several vessels have put in at Plymouth from 7 88 of weather, a strong breeze from the westward , Nvi a- 1 , Ve rY heavy squalls prevailing throughout the previous - Am; the weather abating but little on the Monday. I MAL P.A RIAAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.---(YsTERDAY.) The LORD CRANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack of five o'clock CHURCH RATES, Petitions against the abolition of church rates were pre sented by the Duke of Marlborough and Lord Chelmsford. MIXED MARRIAGES. The LORD CHANCELLOR introduced a bill to alter the law with respect to marriage between Protestants and Roman Catholics in Ireland. The noble and learned lord said he should not move the second reading of the bill until after the Easter recess. The bill was read a first time. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Cardiff and Caerphilly Railway . Bill was read a second time. THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL OF INDIA. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said since he had given the notice which he now rose to proceed with, the question he intended. to ask, whether her Majesty's Government were about to propose to Parlia ment any measure upon the state of the Legislative Council of India, had been answered in another place. He was glad a measure on the subject was to be speedily introduced, so it would be unnecessary for him to trouble their lordships on that point. The papers which he would lay before the house would be of great importance in order that the fullest information might be in the hands of their lordships preparatory to the discussion of the merits of the bill. The constituting a legislative council in India had, in his opinion, turned out a total failure. He did not intend to speculate as to the provisions of the bill, but he hoped that the subject would be dealt with in an enlarged spirit, for it seemed to him quite impossible that a single court sitting at Calcutta could satisfactorily administer to such an immense empire as India. Ile concluded by moving for copies of any correspondence between the Secre tary of State for India and his Excallency the Governor- General or the Governors of the Presidencies of Bombay or Madras, relating to an alteration in the Legislstive Council of India, and also copies of any minutes of the Council of India in this coun.try, or of any Committee of the Council upon the same subject. Earl DE GREY , and RIPON said as his right honourable friend had promised to intro - duce a bill on the subject alluded to by the noble marquis, it could not be expected that he could enter into the details of the measure. He asked his noble friend under these circumstances not to press the motion for the papers, as they had only but a very short time come into the possession of the Government. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE, after a few remarks in reply, consented to withdraw his motion: LAW OF DIVORCE IN ENGLAND AND SCOT- LAND. The' LORD CHANCELLOR moved for the appoint ment of a select committee to consider the law respecting the parties who are entitled, or ought to be entitled, to sue in the Divorce- Court in England, and in the Court of Ses sion in Scotland, for a dissolution of marriage. The noble and learned lord explained that one of the objects he had in view was to extend the provisions of the existing law to Ireland, and to enable An,;lo-Indians to avail themselves of them. Lord CRAN WORTH feared there would be a combinti tion across the border to defeat any attempt to interfere with the marriage law of Scotland. In Ireland there was a strong feeling against the Divorce Court. He saw no reason why all her Majesty's subjects should not be enabled to proceed in the present Divorce Court, and considered there was no cause why the jurisdiction of the court should be extended. Lords MONTEAGLE and WICKLOW having made a few remarks, the motion was agreed to. INCLOSURE BILL. This bill was read a second time. BANK OF ENGLAND PAYMENTS BILL. This bill was read a second time. METROPOLITAN IMPROVEMENTS AND DWELLINGS OF THE POOR. Lord DERBY, in moving that it be au instruction to the select committee on the metropolitan railways to inquire into and report upon the houses and of inhabitants likely to be removed by the works of the respective railways, and whether any provision has been made, or is required to be made for diminishing the evils consequent on a large simul taneous displacement of the labouring population, quoted some curious statistics on the progress made in increasing the density of the population from the years 1801 to 1816, from which it appearel that while the population had in creased the number of houses both within, but especially without, the city walls, had diminished. In the course of the metropolitan street improvements made by the corpora tion many of the humbler clas4 of dwellings had been swept away, and to remedy this evil the corporation had recently voted a large sum to erect model lodging-houses in Victoria street, but this particular site had been since sold to the Me - tropolitan Railway Company. The Metropolitan Extension Company had served with notice half the population in the parish through which it was to run. It was to ob viate the hardships inflicted- by such measures that Lord Shaftesbury some time ago proposed, as a standing order, thaf should provide for the residence of a number of persons equal to those who were displaced. It was decided at the time that such a standing order would not be expedient, but a standing i order was passed requiring returns to be made to the com mittee of the number of houses, and as near as could beef • the number of persons, to be displaced. He now proposed that that standing order should not only be carried out, but that the committee should inquire whether the returns made were true, and, further, whether some clause might not be introduced making the company provide in some way for the people whom they thus turned out. The turn ing out of one man was no great hardship, but when it came to turning out 8,000 or 9,000 men simultaneously it became a social grievance, and one of political importance: In conclusion, he contended that the great number of houses which would be pulled down by the proposed branch to the North London from the North-Westezn, and the number of persons who would suffer thereby, as well as by extension of numerous lines into the metropolis, required the instruction which he moved to the Select Committee. Lord EBURY could not see how Lord Derby's desire was to be realised. Lord REDESDALE did not think the resolution would stop the formation of railways in the metropolis. Still, inquiry, would tend to promote contentment. Lord GRANVILLE read a letter from the Rev. P. P. Gilbert, vicar of St. Giles, Cripplegate, deprecating the views of the incumbent of St. Bartholomew, a district of the parish of Cripplegate, embodied in the petition pre sented a few nights ago by Lord Derby to theJiouse, and contending that, so far from the railroad proposed being in jurious, it would be of positive benefit to that district. If it were clearly understood that this instruction was not to operate on the minds of the committee towards suspending these railway bills, he saw no great objection to it, although be thought it superfluous, and not likely to do good. Lord COLCHESTER, Lord CLA.NRICARDE, and Lord GREY were in favour of the instruction. Lord DERBY made a short reply, when the instruction was agreed to. The house adjourned at half-pLst 8 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER tcok the chair at four o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Sir H. OWEN took the oaths and his seat on his election for Pembroke. PRIVATE BUSINESS The Blackpool and Lythian Railway Bill was recta a second time. • GREAT DOVER ROAD BILL.-BREACH OF ' PRIVILEGE. The adjourned debate on the order for the second reading of this bill was resumed by Mr. ROUPELL, who said that he considered a most unwarrantable ,liberty had been taken in refer ence to this matter, both with respect •to his name, and that of his hon. colleague the member for Lam beth. Their names had been placed en the back of the bill not only without their consent, but in direct opposition to what was known to be their sentiments with reference to the bill. This circumstance had been the cause of considerable temporary inconvenience, and het had to receive deputations from his constituents. He thought it. was his duty to bring the breach of rules of the house committed by the agents in this matter forward, not only on his oWn account but on that of the house. (Hear, hear.) It was well known that he was opposed altogether to_ tolls in metropolitan districts, and he repeated that under such circumstances the conduct of the agents was a most unjustifiable attempt to foist this bill on the house in a surreptitious manner. He concluded by moving the rejection of the bill. _ _ Mr. WILLIAMS said that his name had been placed on the back of the bill without any intimation being given to him on the subject until he saw the bill in the votes. 1 He considered that taking such liberties with hon. members was most unjustifiable. Like his hon. colleague lie had suf fered some inconvenience from that liberty being taken with his name. If his consent had been asked he would have refused it, because the object of the bill interfered materially with the interest of a number of his constituents. Mr. MASSEY said that after the statements of the two honourable members for Lambeth the house could pursue only one course. He would not say that the agents had in tentionally committed a Saud, bat they had been guilty of gross negligence, which, in the language of the profession of which he was a member, would be so designated. (Hear, hear.) He would, therefcire, carry out the object of the hpn. member (Mr.ltoupell) by moving that the order for the second reading of the bill should be dis charged,which was the formal motion necessary for that pur- Colonel W. PATTEN suggested that the proper course to be adopted in future would be to forward to the hon. member for Walsall (Mr. Forster) by hon. members their names, when they wished to have them placed on he back of private bills. Mr. FOUSTER said he would be glad if the suggestion of the hon. and pliant member were carried out. Mr. LOCKE said that he had invariably residecappii. pose. TfIE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 12, 1861. cations to put his name on bills until they had' been sub mitted to him. (Hear.) It was a most disagreeable thing to have a person's name placed on the back of a bill that was unpopular. (Laughter.) He had been frequently applied to in. the case of unpopular bills to put his name on them, but there was no such application when the bill was of a populai character. (Laughter.) The SPEAKER said that he had made inquiries into the matter, as he had promised the house the other even ing, and he had made himself informed of what had taken place in respect to this matter. It appears that consider able negligence had been shown by the agents who had the conducting of this bill, and he thought the order should be discharged. With regard to the suggestion of the hon. member (Col. W. Patten) he thought the better course to pursue was to allow the Parliamentary agents to be ac countable for the orders of :the house being attended to in regard to their private bills. The order for the second reading was then discharged. in since the commencement of the year at the rate of ' per week on the aver Age. These are not the men origina'' • templated by the act, but are all fine able seamen, set c for character and ability. Vast numbers have been r, - jaded who did not come up to the mark, or had not five years service at sea. Had not the qualifications been re stricted to these, we might have enrolled double or treble the number of men." Now, I say that is every satisfactory state of things. I believe we may consider that the Royal Naval Reserve is now an established and very valuable force. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, it naturally became the duty of the Government to consider whether having this reserve, and looking I ambound to say to the fad that it would cost a considerable sum of money to the country, they would be justified in asking the house to keep up the same vote as last year. This yeir we have already 4,000 of the naval reserve added to a considerable force of naval coast volunteers. It may be interesting to the house that I should give a sketch of what our reserves are. First of all, our Royal Naval Reserve amounts to 4,000, and I should state that the greater part of these men are at home and al , ways available. Hon. gentlemen may be disposed to say 'that these men are on distant service, but there is a very small .portion of them on distant service, certainly under one-fourth. And before I leave the subject of this reserve I wish to state that her Majesty's Government are going to bring in a bill immediately with a view to enrol the officers in the mercantile marine or the Royal Naval Reserve. (Hear, hear.) I believe that will be a very great advantage to the navy, and that in the merchant service it will be ex tremely popular. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, the Royal Na val Reserve amounts at present to 4,000 ; the Royal Naval Coast Volunteers amount to 7,000; then we have got of the Coat tguard on shore about 4,000 ; we have got in disposable supernumeraries an average of 1,500 men ; we have 8,000 I Marines on shore ; or rather we shall have in a few weeks when the Marine Brigade arrives from China, and 2,000 boys in the training ships. The house will be glad to hear that here is a force of something like 25,000 reserves, avail able if necessary for an emergency to man a large fleet. I think, therefore, it will not be pretended that we have made any reduction in the personnel of our fleet which is unsafe and unwise, looking to the protection of our coasts and com merce. To this I might add a large body of pensioners. The Staff Officer of Pensioners stated to me a few days ago that there is a very considerable number of pensioner marines— about 3,000 or 4,ooo—who are perfectly fit for service if wanted. Then, again, of seamen pensioners we have about 3,000 embarked on board ship. It has been thought wise that we should, as it were, induct our yming ships' com panies into their duties. It is well known that, owing to the growth of'the fleet of late years, we have had a great want of petty officers and leading seamen—a circumstance that has been one of the main causes of the disturbances which have taken place in our ships. (Hear, hear.) lam positive that when the crews of the magnificent fleet which we now possess become acquainted, as they are rapidly doing, with the cleanliness and the discipline of men-of war, we shall hear very little more of those disturbances of which the world has said so much. • lam certain—and it is my business to assure the house of the fact—that, notwith standing what we hear of the discontent among the officers, and of the general dissatisfaction prevalent in the fleet, such _ a state of things really does not exist. (Hear, hear.) There are a general feeling and desire on the .part of the fleet that our navy should maintain its wonted superiority, and be worthy of tke great country which it is ii ant to defend. (Hear, hear.) Another important point with reference - to the manning of our ships is the system of entering boys. (Hear, hear.) Of late years it has become the duty of the Government to provide training ships for boys, and, in fact, greatly to extend the system of introducing lads into the service. That was one of those wise recommendations of the Commission which sat on the Manning of the Navy that has never been lost sight of by the Admiralty from that day to this. (Hear, hear.) We have gone on increas ing the facilities for training boys by devoting more ships to that particular object, and we are now arriving at a most satisfactory result as regards the boy system. We have at this moment, according to the last return, as many as 9,639 boys being educated at the public expense. I have attempted to ascertain what proportion of seamen for the fleet will be annually furnished from that number of youths. Our statistics are, however, imperfect, not because the Accountant-General's Department, from which they are obtained, is not admirably managed, for I am bound to ray that in all its branches it is very admirably managed, but because of the constant fluctuations which have been taking place in the numbers of the navy. Bat I find, first of all, that these boys require an average training of three years. Therefore, if we allow for the yearly loss thfough deaths, discharges, and other casualties, we may reckon that the total number left will supply to the navy about 2,900 per annum. The next consideration is, what is the number of seamen whose places have to be filled np ? After eliminat ing officers, marines, and other parts of the service, I find that our present force afloat is about 38,000. seamen and petty officers, the gaps occurring, among whom must be supplied either from these trained boys or from the mer chant service. The proportion of casualties among these 38,000 seamen is now 14 per cent., or about 5,000 annually. That is the present average, but I believe it will greatly decrease as soon as the boy system has further developed itself. Sir J. ELPHINgTOrrza Lord C. PAGET—It does. You will, before long, have rL up with your prineipallyc from ompo boyhood, composed of seamen and whomdenwhoh will b have been attached to the service by their earliest associations. I have said that we have 2,900 boys to fill up the 5,000 vacan cies in the fleet, leaving 2,100 to be obtained from the mer chant service. Here there arises a very interesting question as to what proportion of the navy is to be supplied by youths who have been educated by the public, and what proportion by the merchant service. Some will say that we ought not to look to the merchant service at all, but should entirely depend upon our own boys. I confess that, as a naval officer, I cannot agree in that opinion. I think it would be extremely unwise to widen the gap between ourselves and the merchant service. (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, I believe it is advisable that a certain proportion of young men should be brought into the navy from that ser vice, and the remainder taken from our own train ing ships. The matter is one of mere speculation, but I think it doubtful whether any considerable enlargement of the present number of boys in course of training would be attended with as much public advantage as some persons suppose. (gear.) Having stated the number of men we propose to ask, 1 now come to the next important element of our service—the ships. It is quite impossible that we can decide as to what should be our force, either in men or in ships, without having reference to the forces maintained by other Powers. (Hear, hear.) At present, and for some time past, it is my duty to inform the committee that, throughout the maritime nations of Europe there is a de termination —and a very proper one—to maintain an effi cient and powerful navy. We hear it from all quarters that the principal countries of Europe are now paying great atten tion to the materia and the personnel of their navies. (Hear, hear.) I will not at this moment read to the committee, un less they wish it, a detailed list of the maritime force of other nations, as far as we possess it ourselves. (Hear.) If I am to understand that the committee desires it I will read it. (Renewed cries of " Hear, hear.") First of all, with respect to the French navy, as far as we can gather from the official reports—for we have no information that is not open to the French public—we believe that France has 35 line-of-battle ships afloat and,,two building, making a total of 37. We believe that the French have 18 paddle and 21 screw frigates, making a total of 39 frigates afloat and 8 fri gates building. All these are wooden ships. I will deal with the iron .cased ships afterwards. The vessels I have spoken of are all steamships. There is a great variety of small ves sels, corvettes, gunboats, and other classes, making the entire French navy consist of 266 vessels afloat, and 61 building. Then we have to consider another great naval Power, Russia. Russia has 9 screw liners afloat, and none building. She has also 7 screw and 10 paddle frigates, making 17 frigates afloat and 6 building. Next, we have for the first an account this year of the Spanish navy, which is taking its place among the navies of Europa. Spain has of steam liners afloat two, and building one. She has twelve frigates afloat and two building. They are all steamers, but whether they are paddles or screws I cannot flay. We have another navy now entering the arena. I speak, Sir, of the Italian navy. (Cheers.) I hope and trust that that glorious people will speedily rank among 'the first maritime nations of the world. Italy has one screw liner afloat—(a laugh)—she has six screw and twelve paddle frigates, with a considerable number of smaller vessels. This is irrespective of the vessels which lately belonged to the Neapolitan Government. Here is a very powerful force of sea vessels. I must now advert to a very novel weapon of war, which to my mind is of still more importance in considering the force of nations at sea, With regard to the French navy, we know that they have no less than two very large and powerful iron , cased ships. We know they have also four powerful vessel" which they call iron cased fri gates, and that they have likewise four of a very formidable class, called floating batteries. In addition to these they have five gunboats with which we are partially acquainted by rumour, and which are of a very formidable character. We find, then, that the Spaniards are building an iron cased vessel, which is not yet afloat; and of the French ships I may say that three are afloat; La Gloire and La Normandi are actually on the water. Of the French float ing batteries I am not prepared to say how many are afloat; but I have every reason to believe that every one of these vessels could, if required, be afloat ie. a very short period of time. We understand that the Russians are about to build an iron-cased frigate, and the Italians have already ono of those iron-cased frigates, which is either afloat or about to be launched. Mr. ROEBUCK—Where ? Lord C. PAGET—I believe at one of the ports in the Mediterranean. I now come to the question of the perform ance of this new class of vessel. (Hear, hear.) All we know on that subject is from what has been done by La Gloire As our own are not yet ready, we have no experience to guide us, and I can only say that that is not the fault of her Majesty's Government. I can assert for myself that I have written many letters to the contractors, calling on them to do everything in their power to expedite the completion of our iron-cased ships ; and I must say that I think they have not altogether done their duty to the public, or those .vessels ought to have been launched a considerable time since. (Hear.) With regard to our force in this class, we have the Warrior and two sister ships. The Warrior is latinrhed, and the Bleeli Prince is also lanneherl. The thirri . 1 s ip is about to be corr , ttnci,A in hor Majet 'N dock d .'t Those are three , J f the larger class. We tve a •-k.c 41.1 called the Ite,,istance class. of which r here are two; and both wig, we trust, lie launched wi , he next month or two. We have two more vessels, which have been ordered within the last few months, They are altogether of a new class ; and I shall advert to them pre sently. From this it will be seen that we have seven iron cased ships under construction at the present moment. It would perhaps be interesting to the committee if I gave them some information as to what we know already of these iron-cased ships. (Hear, hear.) The committee may re member that it was imagined by many persons that they would be a failure—that, first of all, speed could not be got from them, on account of their being so heavily loaded ; and, secondly, that they would not be seaworthy. 'We have got proofs that La Gloire has great speed, and also that she is seaworthy. (Hear.) We know that she was appointed to accompany the French Emperor to Algeria last autumn. We know also that his Majesty was accompanied by one of the finest and fastest squadrons in the French navy. My hon. friend the member for Finsbury was at Algeria when the Emperor arrived. La Gloire was in company with his Majesty's yacht, which is a very fast one, and the rest of the squadron were out of sight. (Hear, hear.) It is clear from that fact that La Gloire is a vessel of great speed. Then comes the question—ls she seaworthy ? When returning from Algeria the squadron of the Emperor en countered a gale in the Gulf of Lyons. I know an intel ligent captain of a merchant steamer who was in company with the squadron at the time, and he said that he never saw a heavier sea or a heavier gale. I myself saw La Gloire at Toulon a few days after her voyage, and she looked nothing the worse for it. She lived through the gale, and kept company with the Emperor's yacht. Here is a proof that La Gloire i 3 a very fast boat, and, I will not say a good sea boat, but a boat that could live in very bad weather. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the interior ac comodation of La Gloire I know nothing. She is kept, like some Eastern beauty, veiled from the public gaze. (Laugh ter.) Perhaps my hon. friend the member for Finsbury effected an entrance. but if so, I believe he is the only one who can give us any account of her interior appearance. The whole of the French iron-cased ships are built of wood and covered with armour throughout. They have nothing but what we call schooner masts. They could not at all trust to sails for anything like speed. They are, in fact, entirely steam vessels—screw vessels, and have no pretence to anything beyond that. I believe La Gloire was built on the model of the Napoleon, and it stands to reason that her stowage must be confined, both with regard to provisions and coal. The French build their vessels of wood, and they build them of a size something larger than a line-of-battle ship. They consider them as vessels for narrow seas— (hear)—and not for long voyages, and they think it right to case them entirely with iron. (Hear.) We have adopted an entirely different principle ; and who is right, and who is wrong ? No credit is due to me for the 'Warrior, and, as she was designed by a former Board of Admiralty, I may state candidly what I consider to be her merits, and what I regard as her defects. (Hear, hear.) The great distinc tion between us and the French is this,—they are build ing their iron-cased vessels of wood, and of a tonnage not much larger than a line-of-battle ship; while we are building our vessels of iron, and of a tonnage of over 6,000 tons; for that is the tonnage of the Warrior, the usual ton nage of a 90-gun line-of-battle ship being little more than 3 ; 000 tons. Our ships are only partly cased with armour, but they are rigged fully as line-of-battle ships, and have immense stowage as compared with other ships in the navy, and I believe this large class of ships, of which the Warrior is one, will have very great speed. It is a very interesting question to consider which, as a whole, is the better class of construction. There is no doubt that the French construc tion is attended with very considerable advantages on the score of economy, for we know that a ship of 3,000 tons costs less than one of 6,000 tons; but wood is a very perish able article, and it is said that with iron plates a consider able degree of decay takes place. 'Why, then, should we build vessels of 6,000 tons when another nation is building vessels of only one-half that tonnage with nearly as many guns—with, perhaps, not so heavy, but still a heavy arma ment? Here arises a consideration which, I think, must have influenced the late Board of Admiralty, and which is, I think, of great imp ortance. All those engineers who are making improvements in projectiles tell us that we are only in the infancy of gunmaking. (Hear.) I have heard that a gun is to be produced which will pierce a 6-inch plate. If that be so, what will be the effect upcn our ships cased with 41 inch plates ? This class of vessels will be rendered alto gether useless. One great advantage, however, of building these very large vessels is that we can, if necessary, increase the thickness of the plates—we may even double them. (Hear.) I have taken the trouble to ascertain what would be the effect of an increase of thickness upon the flotation of one of these ships, and I find that with a 9 inch plate the immersion would be increased only two feet. (Hear.) If, therefore, it should be necessary to increase the thick ness of the plates to 6 inches or more we shall be in a posi tion to do so. (Hear, hear.) This is in itself a reason why the Government, I think, acted wisely in resolving to build vessels of this large tonnage. (Hear, hear.) It is of im portance, too, that these vessels should be able to take a Warrior is provided with a great power of stowage, so that she might be well supplied in these respects. Another thing which we consider to be absolutely necessary, and which other nations consider to be unnecessary, is that these vessels should be fully riggel. The iron -cased ships of other nations are merely rigged with schooner masts. We have rigged our vessels independently altogether of their engines, and that I take_ to be a wise course, because it is impossible to say where• these ships maybe required to go. They may be called suddenly from one station to another, and it is, therefore, important that we should be able to dispense with their engines. (Hear.) Another point to which I shall advert is the extent of the iron casing. Other nations think it right that their ships should be entirely cased with iron, but ours are only partially cased. Tho reasons for this are manifest. There can be no doubt that when you build ships of great speed with very flue ends, and load these ends with heavy armour plates, it is impossible those ships can go well in a heavy sea. (Hear.) This is one of the defects of the foreign iron-cased ships now building. They will do toler ably well in smooth water, but in a heavy sea they will be total failures. But it may be said shot will penetrate these exppsed places, and vessels will be liable to be sunk. This I think is rather hypercritical, but I may state that the greatest care is taken to provide against such a contingency. The ends of the vessels aro built in compartments water- tight, and asy serious damage from shot or otherwise will be prevented. I have gone carefully into a calculation as to what would be the effect upon the Warrior if a shot struck her and went through the bow or the stern, and I find that the effect would be perfectly trifling—indeed it would amount almost to nothing—as the shot would only affect a particular compartment, [to which are fitted pumps connected with the engine. (Hear.) It must not be sup posed that because these ships are not cased with iron throughout they are not sufficiently strong. All the plates of the Warrior are 9-IGths of an inch in thickness, and if a shot struck at an acute angle the effect would be that it would be warded off altogether. Then the "Warrior is fitted with cross bulkheads both fore and aft, in which in an en gagement the crew will be completely cased in armour, though the ship is not entirely eased with iron. (Hear, hear.) We are trying some little variety in the system, such as putting iron plates round the main deck, that being the fighting deck, and there are other variations, to which I need not allude. Lot me say a word or two about building these ships of iron and not of wood. Every person at all conversant with such matters will agree with me when I say that an iron ship is imperishable. lam not prepared to say there are no defects in the class of ships to which I am referring, but taking into consideration the pos sibility of our being obliged to case them with thick plates of iron, we have acted wisely in constructing them of iron, because I believe that these ships with proper care may be made imperishable. There is one great defect of iron ships, however, which to my mind answers the argument of the hon. member for Sunderland, and those who, like him, de sire that we should cease to build wooden ships. I know there is an opinion held by many eminent shipbuilders that the navy should be composed of iron ships altogether ; but I totally differ from that view. I think those large ships to which I have referred should be built of iron. They are ships that will not be ordered on distant voyages. But for duty on distant stations, where there are no means of get ting docks, we must ever maintain our wooden ships. (Hear, hear.) If an iron ship were kept for a couple of months in an equatorial latitude her bottom would be come like a lawyer's wig. (A laugh.) She would not steer, and would become totally useless. (Hear, hoar.) I think, therefore, on the whole, that the late Board of ' Admiralty, and the present one, have acted wisely in constructing very largo iron-cased ships. I be lieve we are likely to obtain important information with re gard to the exact form of construction that should be fol lowed in future, from the discussions that are going on in so many societies with regard to these vessels. (Hear, hear.) There is, for example, the Society of the Institute of Naval Architects, from which we expect to derive much valuable information. The Admiralty watch with great interest what is taking place in that society, and I hope it will profit by the excellent papers that are read there by the eminent men belonging to it. (Hear.) I have thought it right before going into the estimates to occupy the time of the house with the matters to which I have just referred. I shall now direct the attention of the House to Vote No. 1, which includes the pay to seamen. With regard to this vote, I may state that there are some changes which have taken place since last year. I have endeavoured to put in a distinct form the actual pay, with the allowances of every description, given to officers and men. It is important to see what we give to seamen over and above their pay and allowances. lion. members are, no doubt, aware that the seamen of the Royal Navy do not receive their pay as in the merchant service, but if their pay and all the allowanceS they receive are reckoned, it will be found that they obtain considerably higher pay than in the merchant service. (Hear, hear.) First, we have an established additional pay of £85,673 ; below that we find good conduct pay to petty officers and seamen of £25,000; further on we have a bounty to seamen of £lO,OOO ; so that altogether the seamen of the fleet receive higher pay than the mercli. int seamen, (Hear, hear.) It would be very satisfactory indeed, if the pay of the seaman of the Royal Navy could be simplified, so as to show what hs really gets per annum, (Cheers.) What I wish particularly to call I attention to in this vote is a sum of £9,304, which the eons -1 mitteo are asked to agree to in order to improve the posi tiae o f officers in command. The committee are aware -that her Majesty has been pleased to make an addition to the pay and allowances of officers in command of ships, It has en stated that this is a deceptive and not a real increase. (Hear, hear.) But if these officers are not to benefit by this regulation why are the public to pay £9,000 under this head ? The committee will find that this is a very great and considerable improvement in the com mand pay of officers. (Hear.) The captains of line-of battle ships will receive an addition of £lOO to their pay ; the captain of a frigate £7O. Commanders and lieutenants in command will receive, the former 2s. 6d. a day and the latter 2s. If my hon. friend the member for Portsmouth had looked to the details he would have seen that if the Ad miralty had not adjusted the captain's pay they would be giving him more than a rear-admiral. The pay of the cap tain of a line-o:•battle ship is £7OO a year. It is proposed to give him, in addition, £1 10s. a day, or £547 command money, and but for the regulations made by the Admiralty the total amount would be more than the pay of an admi ral. Of course, if you were to increase the captain's pay in that ratio, you must also increase the admiral's pay, and so on throughout the service. (Hear.) I think the house ought to knoW what has been done in regard to increasing the pay of the navy during the last two years. The House of Commons during the last two years has agreed to an ad dition to the pay of the navy involving a permanent burden of £50,000 a year. (Bear.) The increase of pay to the various classes in the navy is a generous and fair increase, and it is a little unreasonable that demands should, not withstanding, be continually made for increasing the pay of all classes in the navy. (Cheers.) After vote No. 1 I may pass briefly to No. 2, the charge for victualling, which of course depends on the number of men. I will only call attention to one charge, which will, it is hoped, be advan tageous to the seamen, although it may not be more econo mical to the service. We have often heard that the beef supplied to seamen is bard, tasteless, and tough—in fact, resembling mahogany. (A. laugh, and hear, hear.) Well, we are trying a plan of curing our own beef at Davenport. We shall kill the finest beef, and we shall cure it in the best fashion, so that this will be a change of very great value to the seamen. (Hear, hear.) On vote No. 3, for the Admiralty, there appears some increase, but with regard to the Admiralty itself there is this year' a decrease. The increase in this item is caused by heavy law charges in respect to efieetguard cottage:, all over the coast. The house has taken great interest in providing cot tages for the families of these men. We have taken a con siderable sum for that purpose, and the acquisition of these cottages entails a considerable law expenditure. The actual establishment of the Adrniraltyshows a decrease in the pre sent year. There has been a reduction of clerks and a revi sion of the establishment. We have been getting rid of temporary clerks and somewhat improving the position of the establishment clerks. The next vote, No. 4, is for the coastguard. The committee may be interested in knowing the actual cost of our naval reserve. I have seen it stated out of doors that this year the Admiralty have been cutting down the important branch of the naval reserves, and tak ing a less sum than last year for this purpose. The contrary is the case. Last year we had no experience in this matter, and we took a nominal sum of £lOO,OOO. We have since as certained the real wants of the service, and the vote for the pay of the royal naval reserve is accordingly reduced to , £BO,OOO. What the royal naval reset ve costs will be seen in page 26. We have taken out the various votes and put them together. The reserve will consist of 7,000 men, and the suns they will cost is £107,949. In vote No. 1 will be found the pay of the training ships ; in No. 2 the victuals ; in No. 10 the supply of naval stores to ships ; in No. 12 the medical charges. These items together make £27,000, in addition to the item of £BO,OOO in No. 4, so that we have a royal naval reserve of 7,000 men at a cost of £107,000, which is at a rate something like £l5 a man. The coast volunteers cost us £28,000, and there are about 4000 men, showing the cost of the Royal Naval Volunteers to be about £7 a year. The expense of the coastguard may be estimated in the whole at £750,000, and the total cost of our reserves may be stated at £887,000, including all the expenses of the coastguard ships. I pass over No. 5, in which there is no change, except in regard to a small addi tior.al expenditure upon the new survey in Australia. The Australian Government have proposed that they should pay one moiety of the survey about to be instituted of a part of their coast. In No. 6 there is no change from last year. The vote No. 7 refers to Her Majesty's establishments abroad, and on this there is an increase in consequence of the war with China ; as, for instance, a larger staff has been required for Hongkong. Vote No. 8, comprising the wages to artificers, &c., employed in Her Majesty's establishments at home, requires that I should say a few words in explanation. The committee are aware that we have had at work in ourilockyards for the last two years a vast number of hired men above our establishments, amounting at one time to nearly 20,000 men, and these men were working, not by the day, but upon the system of task and job, so that there was no limit to the work per formed. The result of these great exertions in the dock • yards has been most satisfactory as regards progress in shipbuilding, and already in the autumn of last year it essraue essofftrA tuai a 1018 e nunmer or men mignt ne tits pensed with in the dockyards. It then became a question how this should be effected, and the Government thought that it would not be well to discharge all these artificers and labourers who had been gathered together in the dock yards on a sudden, but that it would be best to retain them till the spring, and then discharge them in such a way as not to throw them upon parishes. The Government, therefore, thought it their duty in the month of February to give some notice to the dockyards that the number of workmen would be greatly reduced, but that no man would be discharged without a :month's notice, and without being sent home free of expense. The Govern ment al- o determined to discharge the men in small numbers, and not to throw a great number out of employment at one and the same time. That was the fairest course to pursue with regard to these valuable men, whom it was impossible to have gone on employing, as we could not find timber for them. We have expended during the present year, or at least shall have expended by the end of the month, no less than 80,000 loads of timber ; and hon. members may readily believe that no possible supply could keep pace with that result. The Government, therefore, thought it their duty to discharge a large number of workmen, but to do so at a period of the year least incon venient to them, and he believed that work at the present lime, independent of that in her Majesty's dockyards, is very plentiful. With respect to this vote there is the consider able decrease of £328,555 as compared with the vote of last year. The next vote (No. 9) relates to artificers in her Majesty's establishments abroad ; and, in consequence of the hostilities with China, there is some increase in it. The next vote (No. 10) is for naval stores for the building, re 'pair, and outfit of the fleet, steam machinery, and ships built by contract. It is one of the most important votes in these estimates, and with respect to which the least in formation is always given. (Hear.) The Government are gradually endeavouring to let daylight into the vote. We have this year introduced into the Estimate some new de tails, and I am not prepared to say that the information may not still be very much enlarged. I may be asked why there should be the great addition this year of £285,000 and odd for stoles, when we are reducing the dockyard establish ments ? My answer is that this is not an expenditure, but an increase of capital. The money is wanted for the pur chase of stores, to place ourselves in a position hereafter; to meet any emergencies that may arise. It is our duty to re place our stock of timber, which at the present moment is in much too low a state. That is the reason for asking for this large sum. If the committee agree to the-vote we shall in the course of the present year replenish our stock of timber not only to what is called the establishment, but, in accordance with the wise recommendation of the right hon. member for Oxfordshire, we shall have a considerable sur plus. Under these circumstances I trust the com ' mittee will not hesitate to vote the money. It is not that we are going to expend this timber, but what we want is to lay in a stock of it. There is an item in this vote for an iron-cased ship to be built in Chatham dockyard. I know that there is an opinion that it is unwise in Government to attempt to build iron-cased ships in her Majesty's dock ' yards. I am not prepared to say whether hereafter it would ' be advisable to turn our dockyards into iron building esta blishments ; but the Admiralty have thought it advisable, with the view of ascertaining the comparative cost of build ing iron-cased vessels in the dockyards and of building them by contract, that one of these vessels should be built in Chatham dockyard. I beg the house to bear in mind that this is merely an experiment which the Government have made with the view of ascertaining the comparative cost of iron-cased ships as built in her Majesty's dockyards and in private establishments. I may add that six of those vessels are now in progress of being built, of which number two have been launched, two more will soon be launched, and the remaining two will be finished next year, an additional sum of from £114,000 to £116,C00 over and above the sum of £375,000 asked for in these estimates being all that will be required for their completion. There are two items set down for troopships, but I can assure the committee we seek to build these vessels simply in lieu of ships that have been lost. We aro asking you to assent to no aug mentation of our usual transport fleet. We are no t desirous of imit atin g our neighbours over the water in constructing a great many ships of this class. We are anxious to maintain only that comparatively small number Wh ich it is positively neces spofortthsehciopnsthinauveedurn: e neces sary we our s h o t u r l o d o p h s a v e for o t , 1 3. 1 f e P fortunately been lost , and these it is expedient that we our ' ri t ) r ° a s n e should replace. The new ships will cost £70,000 each, and for that sum we can provide vessels which will carry a complete battalion of troops from one station to an other. There is also in the vote of which I am speaking an item for the construction of store-ships—a , class I of vessels of which I am aware the hon. member for Sunderland very much disapproves, but with which I do not think it would be either wise or economical altogether to dispense. I at the same time go with the hon. member so far as to regard the question as one of degree. I do not think it would be well to get up a great fleet of Government transports, as the French have done, but I am nevertheless of opinion that it would be impolitic to trust entirely to private ships. This, however, is a subject which will be 'fully discussed before the committee upstairs, and I shall not therefore enter further into it at the present moment There are in thi , ' vote no other items to which I consider it necessary to call the attention of the committees and I shall at once proceed to give them a general idea of the way iu which the money whioh they have voted for the navy I. r Lie year has been eprnt. We have, I regret to say, been to much in the habit of accepting the estimates without really knowing what it is we get fur our money, so that the state ment I am about to make may be regarded as wearing some what the aspect of novelty. I have endeavoured to set down on paper that which we have to show fur the larger sums which Parliament has granted, and this is the result : We have built during this year 9,075 tons of line-of battle ships, 12,189 of frigates, 4,133 of corvettes, 6,367 of sloops, 1,409 of gun and dispatch vessels, and 102 gunboats, —making a total of 33,280 tons. I str ted to the house last. year that we intended to have built 29-Bths of line-of battle ships, but I believe that only 20-Bths have been con structed —a circumstance which furnishes a sufficient answer to the hon. member for Sunderland, who contends that we should cease building these vessels altogether. I may fur ther observe that, so far as large frigates are concerned, we are in a very satisfactory position. I need not read to the committee a return of the ships we have built, inas much as one lies on the table of the house. I shall con tent myself with simply repeating that with respect to igates we are in an extremely satisfactory state, and that it is not, in consequence, our intention to build during the coming year any more of those vessels. Of corvettes we do not propose to build a great many, our intention being to devote our energies mainly to the construction of those most useful ships—sloops and gun despatch vessels. The improvements which are taking place in this class of ships are such that I feel assured the committee will concur with me in thinking that the Admiralty would act wisely in directing the labour in our dockyards to the completion of a great number of them. We accordingly intend to build 65-Sths of sloops and 411-Bths of gun and despatch vessels. So far as steamships are concerned we have added 8,760 horse-power to the navy during the present year, and I may state generally that the total horse power is now, exclusive of this, 128,612, to which we propose to add, for the year 1861-2, 9,370. Having said thus much I have no further remark to make on this vote, and I shall, therefore, proceed to the next, which is that for new works. This vote shows a sm all increase as compared with the cor responding vote for the current year, and in dealing with it the first important point which presents itself is the en largement of Chatham dockyard. Now, I have been very anxious to lay on the table of the house the plan on which it is proposod that this work should be constructed ; but it is, lam sorry to say, not quite ready. Inasmuch, how ever, as there is no chance that this vote will come on for discussion to-night, the delay is not of very great import.. ance, and I shall, with the permission of the committee, defer going into the details of the plan until it is before us, which I hope will be in a few days. I shall simply say now that we propose going on this year with that portion of the work only which is being done by convict labour—the em bankment of St. Mary's Island, in which considerable pro gress has been made. But the announcement which I think the committee will receive with the greatest satisfac tion is, that it is the intention of the Government to come nienee the establishment of a system of naval barracks. (Hear, hear.) This is a question with respect to which we feel very strongly. It is, I may add, my candid opinion that if you establish at our principal ports good and cone ' atodious and wholesome barracks for your seamen you will so far improve their position, and do away with the discom forts to which they are now subjected, as to render the ser vice more popular than you would make it by almost any other means. (Hear.) With this view we propose, should we obtain the sanction of the committee for the project, to purchase this year some land at the upper part of Keyhana dockyard and contiguous to Devonport. There we pro pose to erect naval barracks. We also propose to build a new salt-meat store. It is false economy to keep our salt meat under temporary sheds. Both the meat and the casks are damaged. I may state that this is an item which has often been prof osed, but which has just as often been cut out of the estimates. We have thought it our duty to introduce it again this year, and I hope it will receive the sanction of the committee. We propose also to go on with the new docks at Portsmouth and at Devonport. Another considerable item is for the enlargement of the marine barracks both at Fort Cumberland and at Devon port. The committee is aware that there has been a great increase in the corps of Marines. Increased accommoda tion is wanted. We propose to build barracks at Fort Cum berland. The site is a healthy one, affording great ranges for guns, and the land has already been purchased, partly by the War-office and partly by the Admiralty. We in tend to enlarge the barracks at Devenport : because en. largement has become absolutely necessary, owing to the manner in which the town has encroached upon the bar racks. In this vote there is also included a small sum for the erection of a dining-room for the workpeople at Ports mouth. That will add much to the comfort of the men, and it will also save time, by rendering it unnecessary for the men to go home for their dinners. The only other new item in the vote is a small sum for a lock-up house in each of the dockyards. The object into have a place in each of our dockyards where disorderly persons may be confined and kept under careful guard. In the two succeeding votes, 12 and 13, there are no great changes. The vote 14 is tor half-pay. When we are told of the great cost of the non-effectives of the navy, it is at least satisfactory to know that the vote is a gradually decreasing one. The old offi cers of the war aro gradually dying off, and consequently a vote which now appears enormous may be expected to be in a few years considerably less than at present. It only remains for me to call attention to the increase in the vote for civil pensions. The house has generously made, by means of the receht Superannuation Act, a large increase in the retired allowances granted to workmen and labourers of every description. It must, therefore, expect a large increase in the vote for civil pensions. There is an increase in the Present estimates. For certain reasons, however, it is scarcely perceptible; but I am anxious to impress the fact upon you that in a few years the increase in the vote for civil pensions must amount to a large sum. (Hear.) 'A. single word upon the Army Department. That vote this year, as I explained at the outset, will show a large decrease, because we do not ask for any sum on account of the war in China. It is but fair, however, that I should state to the committee that the Government may have to ask for a vote of credit for winding up our accounts in China. Last year we teak a vote of credit for £1,777,000 on behalf of the navy for the expenses of the Chinese war. I cannot tell the com mittee what the state f the balance is. V e have no meals of knowing. It is impossible for the Admiralty to control as they could wish an expenditure going on at the antipodes. All we can do is to inspire our authorities out there with a desire to economise in every possible way ; and I am bound to say, with respect to the expenditure in China, that that most excellent, gallant, and heroic officer, Admiral Hope, has shown, as far as we are aware, the greatest desire to carry economy as far as possible, consistently with the suc cess of the expedition. (Hear.) Notwithstanding the dif ficulties with which he has had to contend, notwithstand . ing his severe wounds, he has been unremitting in his en deavours to check extravagance. (Hear.) 1 believe I have now gone through all the votes. There are, no doubt, many details which I have not laid before the committee, but I am afraid of trespassing further upon your attention. (Cheers.) I cannot conclude, however, without expressing the great satisfaction I feel that the affairs of the navy are daily assuming greater importance in the estimation of Par liament and the country. It must prove of the utmost ad vantage to the navy itself that those naval matters which for years seemed to awaken no interest either in the house or out of doors should now be made the subject of numerous and animated debates. I may say for my colleagues and myself that we are most earnest in our endeavours to main tain the efficiency of the navy, not only to maintain its material strength, but to increase the comforts and improve the position of its officers and seamen. To that object we are directing all our energies, and I trust and believe that in granting additional pay to certain classes of officers we shall receive the unanimous approbation of the house. (Cheers.) The noble lord concluded by moving a vote of 78,200 men of all classes for the fleet and Coastguard ser vice. Sir J. PAKING A TON—The attention with which the committee has listened to the long statement of ,the noble lords affords a very gratifying proof of the deep and in creasing interest which is now taken in all matters affect ing the efficiency of the Royal Navy. In taking that inte rest I am confident this house only reflects what is the strong and unanimous feeling of the public. (Hear.) The noble lord has made a very able, clear, and, upon the whole, a very satisfactory statement. My object in rising is rather to ask for explanations, or to remark in terms of approba tion upon what has fallen from the noble lord, than to make any comments of a hostile nature. (Hear.) I shall at once proceed to touch upon some of the principal points to which the noble lord has directed our attention. The first in order is the reduction in the number of men to be voted. The nominal reduction is, I think, 7,300 ; but the noble lord proceeded to explain that in fact 4,000 men were voted last year who bad never been obtained, and there fore that the practical reduction is about 3,000. Well, this practical reduction the noble lord accounted for by the ter mination of the China war. So far as the termination o f s the China war is the real cause of that reducti on, i t i i possible for the committee to take any exc ep ti on to it ;TA; the contrary, we must feel thankful that the successful issue of that war has enabled us t o make the reduction. The noble lord proceeded to st a t e, i f I rightly followed him, that the amount of force the committee is now asked to grant is amply sufficient tomaintain tive the naval force now i n commission bucotmlelerteelayreefftw effec tive parts of this subject on which I feel it necessary to ask o sonic further explan a ti ons from my noble friend. He staeted , as I und erstood him, that the amount of force for the present year has been sufficient to enable us to keep 1,500 su pernumeraries in our ports. hi m Do I understand rightly to s t y so ? Because this relates to one of the recom mendations made by the Commission on Manning the Navy in 1852, and it is ono of the points which ought not to be lost sight of; on the contrary, I cannot refrain from ex pressing my opinion that the number of 1,500 supernume raries in our ports is not so great as it ought to have been. I think we ought to have a supernumerary available force of not less than 3,000 men. But, taking the lower figure of 1,500, I want to khow if I rightly understood my noble friend to say that these 1,500 were in fact available seamen —men who would occupy our barracks, if th ese were 111 existence, and who are therefore actuallY available to be SLAVE TRADE. On the motion of Mr. HOPE it was ordered that there be added to the return relative to the slave trade (ordered Bth March) a statement showing the approximate annual cost of each such ships. TROOPS IN CHINA. . Gen. PEEL asked the Under Secretary of State for War what was the amount of force retained in China, and of what troops it was composed ? Mr. BARING said that there were in China at present 1,223 artillery, 301 engineers, 5,557 infantry, which, with some other troops, made a total of 7,657, which number can be increased. NAVAL AFFAIRS. Mr. BARING gave notice that to-morrow evening his noble frieiad (Lord,Palmerston) would move the discharge of the order of Sir J. Elphinstone for a committee on this subject, and that the duties of such committee should be added to that of the committee the hon. member (Mr. Dun combe) had already moved for. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND.) Mr. QUINN moved for returns (in pursuance of the 29th section of the Act 10 Vic. c. 31), of the expenditure on the relief of the poor in each union in Ireland for the years ended the 29th September 1859 and 1860 ; and, of the total number of persons relieved in and out of the workhouse in each union during the same period (in continuation of Par liamentary Paper, No. 255, of Session 1859).—Ordered. SUPPLY. On the motion for going into committee of supplz, _ _ _ _ Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY called the attention of tlie house to the mode and extent of the changes made by the Lords Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury in the appropria tion of moneys voted by Parliament for navy services in the year 1859-60; especially that out of £503,880 voted by Parliament for ships building by contract in 1859-60, £200,000 was paid for stores, and £38,521 for machinery, the latter sum of £38,621 on the personal autho rity of the Secretary to the Treasury ; and moved a resolu tion, that the powers of the Lords Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury to alter the appropriation of the grants of money by this house should be defined and limited by law. He said he had deemed it his duty to bring before the house the subject of the practice that prevailed in reference to different votes agreed to by hon. members. By. this practice many votes for one object was applied to another, which he contended was most improper, and he illustrated this position by reference to the appropriation of the money to which his motion related. Mr. 'WILLIAMS thought great merit was due to the hon. bart. for bringing forward this important subject, and he felt great pleasure in seconding his motion. Mr. F. PEEL entered into some explanations to show that retrenchments had been effected in certain depart ments of the public service. Mr, HENLEY approved highly of the subject being brought forward, and, thought benefits would result from its discission. Lord C. PAGET said that the Admiralty had no power to alter the direction of any of the votes taken for parti cular heads of service without consent of the Treasury. After some further discussion, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY consented to withdraw his motion on the understanding that the subject would be considered when the Appropriation Bill was brought forward. -• NAVAL EXPENDITURE. Mr. LINDSAY said with reference to resolutions which he had on the paper, he would not offer any opposition to Government carrying out the construction of iron vessels. His only object was to secure as far as possible the best expenditure of the public money. The house then went into committee of supply. THE NAVY ESTIMATES. Lord C. PAGET—The Navy Estimates for the year 1861- 2, which it is my duty to bring under the consideration of the Committee, amount in all to the sum of £12,029,475, showing a decrease upon the estimates for the current year of £806,625. The estimates for 1861-2 are distinctly ordi nary estimates,--that is to say, they do not embrace any extraordinary items ; whereas the estimates for the year now passing contained a considerable extraordinary sum on account of the'hostilities in China. That extraordinary sum was included in the vote for the transport of troops. It amounted in all to £2os,ooo—namely, £120,000 for trans sports and £85,000 for coals for those transports. To ar• rive, therefore, at the real decrease upon our estimates for the current year we must deduct suet sum or- A.,llo,Uklu 114,111 the gross or apparent decrease, which stands at £806,625. It will thus be seen that the actual decrease shown in the ordinary estimates for the current year amounts to £601,625. This decrease arises under three great votes. There are various minor items of decrease, but the principal items of decrease in next year's Estimates are Votes 1,2, and 8. Vote 1 is for the number of men; Vote 2 is for provisions, victuals for those men; and No. 8 is the great labour vote of the dockyards. Now, the decrease under these votes amounts to a very considerable sum ; but her Majesty's Government have thought that a large addition should be made to Vote 10 for the next financial year, under the head of " Purchase of Timber and other Stores." The hon. baronet the member for Evesham called attention last year to the state of our stores, and I think he very wisely gave us the advice that we should not be without any stocks in hand, but that a decent and respectable stock of tim• ber should be, kept in the dockyards, with a view to emergencies. As I shall allude to that presently when we ' come to the particular vote, I will not trouble the house with any further remarks on it now ; but I will at once ad dress myself to Vote I—that is, for the number of men which her Majesty's Government thought it their duty to ask the House of Commons to agree to for the year 1861-2. Now, Sir, the number of men we propose to take for the coming year is altogether 78,200. That includes every class of men and boys in the service, and even the civilians who are in the Coastguard service. Therefore, we show during the coming financial year a reduction of no less than 7,300 men from the vote taken at the commencement of the pre sent year. That will be a very large decrease in the strength of the navy. (Hear, hear.) But I must inform the house that although her Majesty's Government at the commence ment of the present financial year thought it right, viewing the hostilities then going on in China, and the probability of the extension of those hostilities, to ask the house to agree to the large vote of £85,500, I stated at the time I had the honour to bring the estimates before the house that the Government, supposing that the war should happily come to an end, and other circumstances should permit, would not think incumbent on them to bear the whole number of men the house had agreed to. Sir, events have happily turned out so that the government were enabled during the past year to maintain a much smaller number of men than were voted, and yet the service, particularly that in , . China, has been conducted with every success and advan tage to the public. The greatest number of men who have been borne at any time during the past year are 81,100 in all; so that the difference between that number and 78,200 which we ask for on the present occasion is the real de crease in the forces we propose to maintain during the com ing year. The actual reduction, then, in the number of men is 2,900. lam bound to state to the house that if the hostilities in China had gone on, not only should we have required large reinforcements, but undoubtedly we should have required to relieve the ships that had been a long time on that station. But lam happy, as I before stated, that hostilities have ceased; the war has been brought to a satis factory Mad glorious termination, and we are enabled to bring home about 3,000 men from China. So that the state of her Majesty's navy, both for the defence of our shores and for the protection of our commerce in all parts of the globe, will, in point of fact, not be reduced by a single man. Now, with regard to the expenditure in China, I think it right to inform the committee that we have not been able, either as to personnel or materiel, to give the house at this moment any idea of what the cost of that war will amount to. Her Majesty's Government thought it right to send out a very efficient accountant officer to Hongkong with a view to gather in all the accounts, and in fact wind up the affair, and I trust that ere long the Government will be in a posi tion to state to the house what has been the real cost of the war. Whenever we have the accounts, it will be my duty to lay them before the house, if it should be necessary to have a vote on the subject. I have stated that the force at home for the protection of our shores, and also for the pro tection of our commerce in distant parts, is maintained equally strong, equally powerful as it has been during the past year; but I may state also to the house what I think will be considered very satisfactory—namely, that we have a large accession to our force at the present time. I believe I am justified in stating that the Royal Naval Reserve, which the house agreed to last year, is making great pro ' gress ; that the seamen are becoming very desirous of enter ing that force; that all those delusions and prejudices that existed in the minds of the merchant seamen of the country are fast vanishing away; and that we are, in fact, justified in asking the house, as we do on the present occasion, for a sum of money for the support of tliat force, whiCh will amount, I have every reason to believe, to 7,000 by the end of next financial year. The house has always expressed very great interest in the matter of the Royal ~Naval Re serve. Many gentlemen have said it was a failure. I have heard it often remarked in the house, rather lightly, that the scheme never would succeed ; that the men would not enter the force; and that the whole would be a failure. Now, so far from that, I will take the liberty of reading an extract from a letter which I received within the last day or two frem the Registrar-General of seamen. After stating that we have k now nearly 4,000 men enrolled, he says, " They are coming # ";1