The Sun. — London, England, 1831-07-05 00:00:00

the list was sent up without any observation. It was the old list, and the information -which he. bad received reached him through the son of the Noble Earl. Now- he, using his own discretion, and having this inforniatioti-be fore him, would not allow his name to continue amongst those who were inithe Commission of the Peace. He, however, did not mean to say that his Noble and. Learned Friend had not a right to act as appeared most proper to him. That right he fully admitted, and that he had acted, in proceeding as he had done, to the best of his opinion, he entertained not a doubt. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that the decision of Mr. Justice Bayley was only of a suspensory nature, and depended entirely on the issue of the trial for perjury.— That having been decided in favour of Mr. Storks, he w sa no reason for excluding him. Many of the matters which his Noble and Learned Friend had referred to he had never heard of before. His Noble and Learned Friend had, how ever, awakened his attention to all these details ; but as he knew nothing of them until his Noble and Leatned Friend had given him the information, he had acted under a dif ferent impression. He thought it would be well to post pone this discussion until he could look into all the circum. stances. He should make an inquiry into those circum stances ; and therefore be did not consider the present proceeding to be final. He, however, did not know how the authority of the Lord Chancellor or of the Lord-Lieu tenant of a county was to he preserved, if matters of this nature were to be discussed in that room. lie protested that he was feelingly alive to the advice of their Lordships, and he was' sure that that advice would always be in ac cordance with honour and strict justice ; but in cases of this nature he would not let in their Lordships' opinion without also letting in the opinion of another body,—i.e meant the opinion of the people of England; and lie should not wonder if, in consequence of this discussion, meetings were held on the subject all over Yorkshire. The Earl of HAREWOOD slid, if he had conceived for a moment that the Noble and Learned Lord was not aware of all the circumstances of this case—notwithstand ing the trial took place in the month of March—be would not hive introduced it at present. in the course of the Noble and Learned Lord's °beets , along, one point was mentioned so often, and one particular word was used so often, that it led him to suppose that the Noble and Learned Lord meant to charge him with incon sistency or something worse. The Noble and Learned Lord said, that he (Lord Harewood) had "recommended" that this individual should be appointed to the commission of the peace, and that he afterwards acted against him. `This word the Noble and Learned Lord had repeated se veral times. Now what was that recommendation so spoken of ? Their Lordships would see that he could not act otherwise than he had done. The old commission of the peace was placed before him, and he sent it up to Go vernment, as was usual, on his present 'Majesty's accession to the crown. He had no reason to scratch out this indi vidual's name ; and the Noble and Learned Lord knew full well he could adopt no other course but that which he had taken. What else, indeed, could he do? Under three circumstances, he considered the frequent use of the words " recommended" to be invidious ; because it seemed to imply that what lie did with one hand, he was ready to undo with the other. It was not, however, in his nature to act thus. Ile admitted that the Noble and Learned Lord had been a most excellent advocate for Mr. Storks; hut what he had said, and what he would say, was, that ;snowing the magistrates of the county, and being aware of their sentiments, be felt that if he permitted a Chan cellor to place an individual in the commission of the peace 'unknown to him, without noticing it, lie would have been guilty of a dereliction of his duty. Finding that such a course of proceeding had been adopted, he would not have been doing his duty if he did not interpose between the Lord Chancellor and the magistracy. Therefore, in no ticing this subject, be had not acted from any invidious motive. If it had depended on him, he certainly would not have bad this individual restored ; but at the sante time he would say that he entertained no private or per sonal feeling against him. Ile could not but complain that he found the proceeding was carried on in the Crown office, and the fiat was issued without a word being com municated to hint on the subject. He had no personal hostility, he repeated to the man ; but he felt for the magistracy, and if he had not brought this matter to light, he should not have done his duty. He must still say that the Noble and Learned Lord bad given him no satisfaction as to why he had, with the determination to re-appoint this gentleman, passed by him (Lord Harewood) and never mentioned his intention, That feeling he must still hold. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the list bad been sent up by the Lord-Lieutenant and Custcs Rotulorum, and if it were so transmitted without any direction to strike out any particular name, he was not to blame if the indi viduals mentioned in it were re-appointed. If he received a commission without observation, lie took it for granted that every name comprised in it was meant to be recom mended. He understood that the Noble Earl had given that recommendation ; and that no offence was imputed to Mr. Storke, except the indictment for perjury. But it now appeared that there was another ground on which lie ought to have paused, and which prevented the Lord- Lieutenant from approving of the re-appointment. With respect to the former, he had no right to interfere pending the prosecution ; and, as to the latter, he was not ac quainted with it. He was, however, very sorry for an omission which, undoubtedly, he meant not. lie was very sorry for it, on two accounts—first, because it had given their Lordships so much trouble ; and, next, because it seemed to give the Noble Earl pain; and certainly he regretted any act of his which tended to give pain to one whom he so much respected.—(Hear, hear.) But if it were to do again, he, acting on the same information that he formerly had, must proceed in the self-same way. Now, as to what his Noble and Learned Friend had alleged against Mr. Storks, that individual was, in his opinion, guilty of an impropriety ; but he did not think that it deserved so awful a visitation as his Noble and Learond Friend was willing to inflict. He would, however, take the matter into farther consideration—he would again consult the Learned Judge who had already been alluded to ; and, partly by the advice of that Learned Person, partly by the advice of his Noble and Learned Friend, and partly by his own view of the case, lie would decide on the course which he ought to pursue. Lord LYNDHURST said, he did not know what his NOM,: and Learned friend meant by "awful visitation," What he had observed was, that writing to the foreman of a Grand Jury was a grave and serious offence. He stated every thing with great deference to his Noble and Learned Friend, and had expressly said, that his Noble and Learned Friend was as capable of forming an opinion as he was. Lord ARDEN made a few observations, but they were not audible below the bar. The Duke of WELLINGTON observed, that the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to labour under a great miscou steption, when he appeared to suppose that the charge against Mr. Storks was confined solely to the indictment for perjury, and that he, having been acquitted of that offence, dad a right to be placed in the commission of the peace. That was not, and could not, be the charge against Mr. Storks. It was evident that he could not be struck out of the list on account of an indictment for perjury, be cause he must be considered innocent till he was found guilty. When Mr. Justice Bayley apprised the Secretary of State that Mr. Storks ought not to be continued in the Commission of the Peace, it was evident that it must Le for some other reason, and not in consequence of the in dictment. That other reason was, the letter which lie addressed to the Grand Jury. it was on that account that his name was omitted by the predecessor of the Noble and Learned Lord. It was usual, as a matter of aourtesy between the Chancellor and the Gatos Rotulorum, for the former to give the latter notice of any intended change in the Magia, tracy ; and the Noble and Learned Lord, than whom no in dividual possessed more courtesy, (eight to have consulted with the Noble Earl before he proceeded to re-insert this gentleman's name. The snaking out of these commissions of the peace was a most painful duty to those who were ig the commission. The Noble and Learned Lord with all thathis ability, info r m a ti on , and talents, we old he unequal to . duty, with out t h e assistance of those who possessed loco! knowledge. Now surely in a case like this, where a man bad been tried for perjury, although he had hero acquitted, and aga i nst whom timers were othr charges,-- in ouch a case the N o bl e and Learned Lord certainly ought to have inquired whether an y local exist :j against his name being continued on the THE CORONATION. The Duke of WELLINGTON inquired whether the Noble Earl opposite had received any instruct:ono on the subject of his Majesty's coronation ? Earl GREY answered that I-se had not. _ _ The Duke of WELLINGTON wiahed to know l :i t r er it was not necessary that his Majesty should, a specified perio d, take certain oaths connectedwith his coro nation ? Earl GREY said he was aware of the oaths to which the Noble Duke referred ; but he did not know that the law prescribed any particular time when, or place where, they should be administered. As to the delay which had occurred, he would, perhaps, hereafter have to communi cate to the House the cause of that delay. The coronation had hitherto been a matter of very great expellee ; and it was important that that solemn compact which was then ratified between the King and the people should be effected lit as low a charge as possible. He repeated, that he bad no commands from his Majesty on the subject; but he the;c Lordships, th,at the Aligstinn, prer.crihed by , law to be entered into by his Majesty, stioubl be taken in soma way or other. NEW BEER BILL. Earl CANIDEN presented two petitions from the county of Kent, praying for an alteration in the Beer Bill. OVERSEERS OF THE POOR. Lord TEYNHAM brought in a Bill to regulate, im prove, and amend the office of Overseer of the Poor.—Read a first time, and ordered to be printed. TITHES. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY postponed the second reading of the Tithes Composition Bill, to Friday next, on which day their Lordships were ordered to be summoned. Lord DACRE postponed the second reading- of the Tithi s Commutation Bill till Friday next. LORD-LIEUTENANT OF COUNTIES (IRELAND) BILL. Viscount MELBOURNE said, in rising to propose the second reading of the above Bill, he would confine him self to a very few observations, in which lie would endet- Your shortly to explain its nature and object. He enter ' tained no doubt that the Bill might be easily carried into execution, and that it would prove very beneficial to Ire land. The object of the Bill was to transfer the powers at present exercised by the Governors of counties, to an offi-f cer to be appointed in each county by the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and to be called a Deputy Lord-Lieutenant The chief object proposed to be attained by this change was, the establishment of a regular channel of communi-' cation between the Government of Ireland and the Magis= tracy in the respective counties. He was sure that noi person could have been connected with the Government of Ireland frir even the shortest period without having experi-' enced the want of such a mode of communication. In the absence of it, the Government was obliged to rely on the communications which it received from individual Magi,, trates or from bodies of the Magistracy, who, though men highly to be respected in the aggregate, were, neverthelrsa, frequently under the influence of prejudice and passion ; the consequence of which was, that the Government was often led into error by information which they furnished —(Hear.) The establishment of Deputy Lord Lieute nants, as proposed by the present Bill, would be one step towards introducing into Ireland the constitutional Government of England, which never could be in troduced there unless we establi,herl there the same in struments by which it was so judiciously carried into effect in this country.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He WAR bound to say that it had been; the constant ender yours of the Lords Chancellors of Ireland, from Lord Redesdale downwards, to improve the character of the magistracy of Ireland. No man ever proceeded to Ire land with a stronger desire to do his duty fairly and con scientiously than Sir Anthony Hart, the late Lord Chan cellor ; but he believed that his attempt to fix a greater degree of responsibility on the recommendations of per sons to the office of Illagistrate failed of producing any be neficial effect. This alone showed that it was necessary there should be in each county some person distinguished fur rank, property, and character, on whose recommenda tion the Lord Chancellor might place implicit reliance. Having made these observations, he would conclude with moving the second reading of the Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that he concurred with most of the observations which had fallen from the Noble Lord. No man could be more convinced than lie was of the necessity , of giving the Lord Lieutenant of Ire land every assistance which the Parliament could to en able him to perform his duties with the best effect. He conceived the system of Governors of counties to be one which could never work any benefit for Ireland.—(Hear.) In some counties there were five of these officers, in others three, in others two, and in some, but very few, only one. They acted upon no settled system, and were frequently in the way of each other. He considered it to be essential to the public service that the alteration proposed by the Noble Lord should take place. He had looked with apprehension to the Bill, because he was apprehensive that it might lead to the putting down of the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland—a subject on which he knew that some persons in this country entertained a strong opinion. He thought that the abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland would he the greatest misfortune that could happen to that country. The Lord-Lieutenant was absolutely necessary, in order to bring the Government home to the doors of every man in Ireland. It was necessary that that officer should be on the spot to suppress that bane of Ireland, the acts and the power of the demagogues. Nothing but the presence and the active spirit of the Lord-Lieutenant could do that. He confessed that he had looked with jealousy at the Bill on that account, and he hoped it was not intended to establish in Ireland officers who would conduct themselves in such a way that Parliament might afterwards be told that there was no longer any necessity for the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.—(Hear.) There was one vat of the Bill before their Lordships which he thought liable to some objection—he meant that clause which proposed to give the Deputy Lord-Lieutenants the power of appointing officers of the militia. It would be very unjust to interfere with existing Colonels in that force, many of whom had made great sacrifices. He likewise was of opinion that the Deputy Lords-Lieu tenants should hold their offices by patent during plea sure, and not for life. _ . . Earl GREY said that be was happy to find, as he indeed had anticipated, that there was no objection on the part of the Noble Duke to the general principle of the BM, which had been sanctioned by successful practice in Eng land. He trusted that the Bill would not be prejudiced by any su.picion of a design being entertained to use it as a means of effecting the object to which the Noble Duke had alluded. The present was not the time to discuss the ne cessity of continuing the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ire land. Without giving any opinion as to whether it would be advisable to continue that office permanently or not, he was prepared to admit, that at the present moment, and in the present circumstances of the country, it would be highly inexpedient to abclish it. What might be done hereafter was a consideration to be entered into on a future occasion. He hoped, however, that the Bill would not ba considered objectionable if it should lead to the esta blishment cf such a system of government in Ireland as would make it possible, without inconvenience or prejudice to the public service, to dispense with an officer, useful and beneficial as he was, whose appointment was attended with vast expense to tie public. He did not wish it to be understood that he had any settled opinion on the subject, but he would repeat that at the present moment it would be highly inexpedient to discontinue the appointment.-- With re pect to what had fallen from the Noble Duke re lative to the Militia Colonels, he would give it the most anxious cor.sideration, as every thing which proceeded from that quarter was entitled to.—(Hear.) It was only necessary for him to add, that the appointments to the office of Deputy Lieutenants would net be for I,le, but only during the pleasure of the Government. The Eari of LIMERICK approved of the Bill. Lord PLUNKS IT made an observation, which was in audible ; after which the Bill was read a second time. The Frauds on Creditors' Bill was read a second time, on the ....otion of Lord WYNFORD.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 4. The doors of the gallery were opened at a very early hour, and in a few minutes it was filled almost to suffoca tion. By Four o'clock, when the SPEAKER took his seat, there was a large attendance of Members, most of whom: had taken their places by previously affixing their names to the backs of the seats. This mode of taking seats led tr come inconvenience, as will be seen by the following dis cussiou Mr. HUME acid he was anxious to know what was the rule of the House regarding the taking places. Having understood on Friday last that an attempt would be made to-day to dispossess him of his seat—(Laughter)— he meant of his place, he requested an Honourable Friend to attend at eight o'clock to put down his name, and be came to the House at ten o'clock himself to see if it had been done. He, however, found that so early as seyen o'clock, even before the doors were opened, up wards of 20f) Members had found their way in—not by the usual mode certainly—he, therefore, wished to ask the Right Hon. Speaker firs:, whether after the House adjourns over night, it was competent for any Member to enter and pat his name on any place? Secondly, whether it was competent for any Member to come in and put up the names of two or three tither Members, as bad been done to day ?—(Hear, hear.) And thirdly, whether gentle men, whose places had thus been taken, should not be in their places when prayers were read ? It was quite necessary that every gentleman in the House should be fully informed upon these point:, for he had found some lion A'lember had taken his usual place, and be had taken the liberty of taking the paper off and placing it on s back seat.—(A laugh.) If it were competent for Members to come and take places befnre ten o'clock, it was also com petent to do it at three o'clock in the morning, a plan he could adopt if necessary. The SPEAKER said, he was at all times ready to facilitate the general accommodation of 3lenl- 11 latterlyers.— ( b H e e e n a ri.2fi n i N t V e l i y th m r o e , s e pe d c i t ffi t c o u l t t a y k i t n i g a n p h l a a e d e s e v there f h o ad i e existed ; that perhaps was caused by the state of the times, or the importance of the s u bj ec t- matter to b e discussed, or perhaps both together, which cr ea t e d a difficulty • in a place which was not over large. The st r i ct ru l e was, that the places should be taken at prayers; and when bill s were placed on the seats, they were supposed to intimate that the i n i f i v a l al* themselvv. would be there when prayers were read, It was difficult to lay dow❑ a rule, and therefore it w that some courtesy by accommodation was desirable. If livisions tool<place, or if the House went up to the bar of the House of Lords, the rule was that the places were lost; that was the Parliamentary principle, but he hoped that the House would make up by courtesy and complai sance what strict rule could not accomplish. After a few words from COl. LINDSAY and Mr. HUNT, The SPEAKER again repeated that the only Parlia mentary rule as to taking seats was at time of prayers. The subject was then — dropped. Colonel ROCH FORT presented a petition from the county of Westmeath against the Reform Bill, signed by a great number of landed proprietors, including clergymen, magistrates, and farmers. Mr. CHAPMAN denied that the appended signatures were those of the majority of the landed interest, and of the respectability and intelligence of the county of Westmeath. It was not got up at any public meeting, but by private individuals, and Bent round from house to house for signatures.—The petition was read and ordered to he printed. Mr. STRICKLAND presented two petitions from two places in the hundred of Holderness, in the county of York, praying that they might be jointly allowed to return representitives to Parliament. The petitioners were placed in the unpleasant position of being included in schedule A, but they were deserving of notice from the fact' that the). wished for no exclusive privilege. An HON. 31emBER, whose name we could not learn, said he should bring the subject forward in the Commit. tee on the Bill ; for if consistency of principle had any influence in the promotion of the Reform Bill, the prayer of the petitioners could not but be attended to. The petitions were then ordered to lie upon the table. Mr. HUNT presented a petition from the working classe s of Blackburn, which he said was respectfully worded and needed no reprobation even from the tender nerves of the Hon. Member for Essex (Mr. Wellesley). It was signed by 6,481 male adults of Blackburn, including every man who was to be excluded from a share in the representation by the provisions of the Bill. They were not hostile to the Bill, but they conceived it would be inadequate to satisfy the just demands of the productive classes of society, and that they, the producers of property, w ere excluded ; they viewed with alarm the enormous weight of taxation, the standing army, and the national debt, and they prayed that such an alteration might be made in the Bill as would give them a due share in the representation ; they also prayed for annual Parliaments, universal suffrage, and vote by ballot. He was authorised to state, that the peti tioners would have waited for the operation of the Reform Bill, had it not been for the contra dictions which had been last Session given to some of the statements made in this House by him (Mr. Hunt). He had also a petition from Manchester, signed by 20,000 persons, upon the same subject. The petitioners were riot factious parsons, or anxious to defeat the measure before the House ; but as they had fur years contended for that for which they now prayed, they could not allow the pre sent opportunity to pass without enforcing it on the attention of Parliament. The deputies from many places in the country had waited upon him, and stated that they had waited upon many Members of the House, in some instances upon some Ministers who had advised them tro wait until the Bill passed, and then they (the Ministers) would go heart and hand with them in what they wished.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He had given the deputies no advice upon the subject, but he had advised them to send petitions to him respect fully worded—(Hear, front 311.. Wellesley)—yes, re spectfully worded, for though he had been so incautious on a former night, he would not incur the Hon. Gentleman's cheer ; be repeated, that this country would never be cheerful and happy again until those measures were adopted ; there never would be peace until every male adult who paid taxes was allowed to vote, which he con ceived would be one in every five or six persons.—The petition was read, and ordered to be printed. The HON. MEMBER next presented a petition front Richard Moran, of Somet villa, in the city of Dublin, Gentleman, complaining of the effects of the Legislative Union, to which lie attributed all the distresses of Ireland, and praying for its repeal as the only means of bringing back peace to Ireland. He regretted that these petitions were entrusted to hint instead of the Hon. Member for Kerry, who, it seemed, was so absorbed in the question of Reform as to allow the question of the repel' of the Union to lie dormant.—(Fleur, hear.) He (Mr. Hunt) had been informed by all his Irish correspondents, that the Reform Bill was looked on only as a stepping-stone to wards the repeal of the Union.—( Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL should like to know whether the Hon. Member could do any thing else to retard the pro gress of the Ref"rio Bill.—(l.oud cheers.) It was wholly unfounded to state that the question of Re. form was looked to as a stepping-stone to the repeal of the Union ; the object of the Bill was to obtain cheap Government and cheap institutions; and the people of Ireland were calumniated, when it was said they wished for a separation from this country; although a local legis lature would be desirable to them, they were willing to make an experiment of the effects of the Reform Bill in a Reformed Parliament, and to see if they could obtain good Government and cheap institutions.—(llear.) As to the Hon. Member for Preston presenting so many Irish petitions, he had presented four of them , and th e present one was signed only by one person, and in order to give it greater effect it was intrusted to the lion. Mem• her.—(Laughter.) Mr. HUNT obseived, if the Hon. Member thought that the House would he deceived by him (Mr. Hunt), or by the Hon. Member's apostacy, it was a mistake__ (Murmurs)—he meant only political apostacy.—(A laugh. ) Hiving, in the presence of 30,000 persons at the Eagle Tavern, stated that he was for annual Parliaments, and universal suffrage, by which he would stand and die, be now turned round and bedaubed his phrases.—(Laughter.) Mr. O'CONNELL was obliged to the Honourable Member for his politeness.—(Loud laughter.) lie (Mr. O'C.) wished the Hon. Member would be an apostate to this extent, that from being the long practical enemy of Reform he would become even neuter.—(Cheers.) Ile (Mr. O'C.) had always been a Radical Reformer, but in stead of annual Parliaments, he stated on the occa sion referred to by the Honourable Member for Pi eston, that he was the advocate for triennial Parliaments. He did then speak of universal suffrage ; and the reason he did not now advocate it was, that lie thought the proposed Reform Bill would have the effect of causing the people to be effectually and substantially, and not nominally re presented.—(Cheers.) REFORM BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Reform Bill. Mr. ESTCOURT wished to address a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer before the House pro ceeded further upon this motion, relative to a circumstance which had transpired, and given great un easiness to a highly respectable individual. He alluded to Mr. Gregson, i❑ respect to the alteration that had been made in the Reform Bill, and he wished to have it stated now to the British public who had been much abused in relation to this measure with respect to Mr. Gregson, whether he was or was not in any way whatever to blame. Lord ALTHORP said, the circumstance to which the Honourable Gentleman alluded was a statement he supposed which had appeared during the last week in some of the public papers, reflecting on the conduct of Mr. Greg son, by insinuating that he bad made an alteration in the Reform Bill unwarranted by Government. He (Lord Al thorp) had not seen the statement, but the moment he was told of it lie mentioned the subject to Mr. Gregson and said he should take the first opportunity of stating to tie House that Mr. G. bad nothing to do in the concern— nor had he. The proposition was made by Government for the alteration in the right of voting to rents payable half-yearly, instead of leaving it in the way it was before. This was intended for the sole purpose of rendering effec tive the value of the 101. occupation, and only fur restrict ing any thing below that. Undoubtedly his Ma jesty's Ministers were bound to admit that they had fallen into a mistake, as they were not aware that in making that proposition they would by it disfranchise so many individuals. Immediately this was discovered, they determined to abandon the alteration at once. Mr. Gregson was perfectly free from imputation on the subject. He had certainly said there would be some difficulty arising from the alteration, but this ob servation was made by Mr. Gregson after Government had determined to make it, and therefore he had re quested Mr. G. to proceed in the preparation of it. Mr. ESTCOURT could not admit that the Noble Lord's statement was altogether satisfactory. If lie (Mr. E.) was correctly informed Mr. G. had pointed out the consequences in a very able manner that would arise from this alteration, and notwithstanding that, the Noble Lord had directed him to proceed ; and if the matter was left to go forth to the public as it now stood upon the Noble Lord's straement, it would appear that Mr. G. had not been clear and precise in what he had said. No one who knew Mr. G. would ever doubt the precision and ability with which he must be presumed to have made Lis state ment. Under such circumstances the Hon. Member hoped the Noble Lord would not hesitate to state that neither pro fessionally, directly nor indirectly, could any blame be at tached to Mr. Gregson. Lord ALTHORP had no difficulty in repeating what he had said before, that in his opinion no blame was to be attached to Mr. Gregson. At the same time he felt bound to observe, that Mr. Greg•on did not state to him, accord ing to his recollection, and probably his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) could bear him out in that recollection, that the rents were not paid quarterly, itnd that therefore s,. many would be disfranchised. He did not give him to understand any thing like the disfranchising extent to which the clause would have gone. Lord JOHN RUSSELL's impression of what took place was the same as that of the Noble Lout who had just sat down. When the alteration agreed upon by his Majesty's Government was communicated by his Noble Friend (Lord Altborp) and himself to Mr. Gregson, that gentleman said there would be objections against it; and undoubtedly he mentioned the circumstance that there were persons paying a very sufficient rent, but not paying it quartetly, who would be disfranchised by the clause ; but as to any thing like the extent to which the disfranchising would go he (Mr. G.) had certainly con veyed in any thing he said, nothing like it. In a Bill like the present, comprehending so many clauses requiring to be considered, and reconsidered, so many times, there must have passed on the part of Mr. Gregson and on the part of those representing Government, who gave him in structions, a great variety of discussions. Objections and discussions were consequently started on various occasions, hut Mr. Gregson had said nothing in respect of this alte ration which had left any greater impression en his mind than respecting any thing else. He felt bound to say, that though exceedingly sorry any persons should have blame thrown upon them, and Mr. Gregson on this oc casion was in no way to blame, yet the publication of any communications so confidential as those which passed between the Government and the person whom they selected to draw up a Bill like this for the purpose ofoubmitting it to Parliament, must be very preju dicial to the public service. —(Hear, hear, hear.) And he was sure that when Mr. Gregson came to his Noble Friend he must have had this feeling, that if a contradiction was to be given to an autho rised publication, it should be given in this House, and that it should not meet the public eye by other statements wholly groundless, and intended and calculated only to throw reflections on the conduct of those who had been the promoters of the Bill, statements made with a total disregard to truth, and every possible disrespect to the character of his Majesty's Government. Mr. ESTCOURT felt it almost impossible to abstain from entering more into detail on this subject, unless he could obtain from the Noble Lord opposite a simple, plain, unsophisticated declaration, that no blame either professionally, directly, indirectly, or otherwise, was to he attached to Mr. Gregson. He requested to have a plain unvarnished statement to that effect. Lord ALTHORP had no hesitation whatever in saying that Mr. Gregson had no concern in any way wi.h the clause in question, except being employed by the direction of Government to draw it up.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to exempt Mr. Gregson from any blame whatever.— (" Hear, hear," and cries of " Quite enough.") Sir R. PEEL could not help adverting to the state• men; made by the Noble Lord at the conclusion of his speech, of some diverging from the sacredness of confiden- tial communications: that the Government had to com plain of. lie dial think there was allusion here to the communications that had taken place between Go vernment and Mr. Gregson. If imputations were meant to be thrown out by the Noble Lord upon the integrity of that gentleman, he could a•sure the House that it did great injustice to Mr. Gregson, who valued professional honour and sacred integrity more than life. He (Sir Robert Peel) had the honour of select ing Mr. Gregson, some years since, to draw up some Bills to consolidate and improve the state of the laws, and, although habits of private intimacy had therrby been superinduced, so scrupulously had that gentleman discharged his duty to the presort Government, that he had entirely abandoned that private intercourse, and on no occasion had he made any communication at all to him (Sir R. Peel). If no such reference were intended to Mr. Gregson, he was sure that the Noble Lord would be glad of the opportunity so affirded of altogether dis claiming it. Lord J. RUSSELL then rose and said, he had made no such reflection on the character or honour of the gentleman alluded to, nor had he east any imputation on him whatever with reference to his conduct in this proceeding. If the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had recollected what he (Lord John Russell) had said in his former statement, he should have remembered that Mr. Gregson had declared himself of opinion, tkat if unfounded statements were made with respect to him in the public papers, the only way he could obtain redress was by coming to the Members of Government and obtain ing a contradiction from them. He (Lord John Russell) added, at that time, that he thought the pra,tice itself of giving garbled accounts of what had passed between Go vernment and their confidential agents, was a practice much to be deprecated, as prejudicial to the public service, and therefore he hoped that another instance of it would not be presented.—(Hear.) He thought the Right Hon. Member himself might have felt aggrieved if, when he was Secretary of State, and when engaged in drawing up any Bill of importance for the consideration of the Le gislature, a garbled statement of what had passed be tween him and Mr. Gregson had ever appeared in the public prints.—(Hear, hear, hear.) While however he deprecated the present practise as detrimental, he would repeat that in all his intercourse with the gentleman lie had just alluded to, he had uniformly found him a man not only of great ability and professional expe rience, but one on whose integrity he could implicitly rely. Sir R. PEEL was perfectly satisfied with the open and honourable statement of the Noble Lord.---( Hear. ) Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the order of the day f o r Reform in Parliament be re,d, and the Bill for Amending the Representation was read a second time. Sir J. WALSH rose and said, that on a former occasion, when a measure which, however differing from the present, in its several important details, yet resembling it in its general features, was submitted to the atten tion of that House, he had expressed himself une quivocally hostile to it. These first impressions he had reiterated to his constituents, but if, on any subsequent con sideration of it, if by the investigation of the details which he might afterwards give to it, he had in any respect been led to alter these impressions, he could assure the House that no false shame, no pride of consistency, would, on a subject of such importance, have deterred him from coming forward and boldly declaring that he bad taken a hasty and erro neous view of the subject. But he was equally bound to state to the House that the most mature, impartial consi deration he had been enabled to bestow on the subject, had not produced such a result. The more he investigated the principles Lnd bearing of the measure, the more was he convinced of its unconstitutional character and dangerous results. Hon. Members on the other side of the House had deprecated all irritation and bitterness of party feeling in its discussion, he went along with them, and with coolness and rnoderatisn he would wish to discuss the measure. He lamented, however that the virulence of party feeling had already been excited throughout the country, and that a spirit of partizanship was abroad in the community. Ile did not allude to the state of feeling in the metropolis but simply to the excited state of popular feeling throughout the country in favour of the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill.— Ile would put it to the Members of the present House of Commons, whether in the short period that had elapsed since this subject had been brought forward, feelings of the kind he had alluded to had not been created, which he was sure had no parallel in the recollection of the younger Mem bers of this House. This in itself clearly proved the evil that would result from such a measure. He considered that the present Bill was fraught with the worst consequences. He did not mean to refer to the discussions that had taken place on the subject of the recent dissolution, or upon the propriety of it. That had already been sufficiently discussed, but there were sonic of the consequences of it which had produced symptoms of a temper and feeling in a large portion of the community which had a direct bearing on the subject. It bud even been made a boast that a very large portion of the Hon. Gentle men bad been returned pledged to vote for this measure, in all its bearings and extent. Pledged to vote for it without consulting their own judgments—(No, no)—they bad been returned, pledged to vote for the measure, without having the advantage of a second thought, pledged probably without having fully and in all in stances having bad a previous opportunity of under standing it. If he wet, as favourable to this measure as be was against it, he should say that far any measure passed under such circumstances, a vast number of its upholders being precluded from exercising their own °pi pions, it would be fatal to the principles of represen tative Government—(Hear, hear, hear)—that the moment that Bill parsed it would cease to be a r e presentative Government, such as had been practised in the country for the last century._( Hear and laughter.) He did not think that he was laying down any new doe. trine, and to prove it he could refer to the authority of those who were far better judges than himself, or many y Membersalluded t o i n thet a t authorityse o n f s o arimportantdw.theireißsenuosrpfkieiaeeea: speech isGu,aauobt;:eicracatintilitteaitnil that so w inn h el e i n ioafrt h h e teo p w at a rh s t aH). stauncheonealalluded N d V tehd h e i g tloe , is. Honourable Gentleman made at the election for Bristol, shortly after which be changed hia qtatemeuti upon politics. But the pledges had not been the only effects o' the recent elections. He added, from those on whom In could place great reliance, that in many instances th, excitement which had taken place on the subject of Reform had led in various districts to riot and disturb ance. This was one specimen of the democratic in fluence which was so ready to snatch at every thin; ti gainsay the laws, and by the present Bill that influence would he in a great degree extended. lie rued only allude to the occurrences that had taken place at Rye, Banbury, and the riots in Scotland. Other disturbances had taken place, which had led to considerable loss of life.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") Ho nourable Members did not give entire credence to this ; but, perhaps, they would allow him to read a few exti acts from a Paper called the Cam brian, published at Swansea, which gave a detailed account of the meetings of the miners at Merthyr Tydvil, and the riots that had taken place there. At those meetings great praise was betowed on the Reform Bill, and it was said that it would certainly be the means of obtaining for the people their rights, and that they would be properly represented in Parliament.—(Hear.) The Hon. B rronet believed he was not quite in order in alluding to a speech of the Noble Lord's opposite on e former occasion; but he hoped the House would on this occasion excuse him if he did so, as he had not then an opportunity of observing upon it. The Noble Lord upon that occasion took an opportunity of adverting to a publication of his, Sir J. W.'s, and in terms not consis tent with his usual courtesy charging his objections ta the measure as tending to lessen the gradations in society. He could not, however, but think, notwithstanding the Noble Lord might have supposed him ignorant of the subject, that he was well enough versed in it. He did not go into ancient history for information, nor did he dive into black-letter hooks, nor even into the history of the Tudors, but he confined him self solely to modern times. He thought the borough, which thisßill intended to disfranchise, were Imo e peculiarly those by which gentlemen of moderate fortune, of country lives, could obtain access to this House. He did not—se had been stated—allude entirely to local interests, but they afforded access to gentlemen who would be precluded by the operation of this Bill.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He could not think this view of the subject was entirely without ground. There was an argument of the Noble Lord's that struck him as very singular. The Noble Lord took occasion to observe that it was satisfactory to this House to know that no less measure than this would do, because it was clear Ministers were not bound by any specific pledge, that they had a discretion as to what measure they should bring forward, and they, in their wisdom, had determined on this measure. Therefore no less a measure would do. That was an argument, therefore, rather to the faith of the House, and went to the infallibility of /11inisters.— (Laughter. ) It was,however, an argument nut likely to gain many converts on his (Sir J. Walsh's) side of the blouse. He opposed the Bill firmly, honestly, and openly in all its stages, and in every part of it. He gave it his most uncompromising opposition. 112 con . eluded by moving that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. FYNES CLINTON seconded the amendment ; in doing which he began by contending that a Reform such as the advocates of the Bill proposed to effect would go to destroy the deliberative and independent character of that House. It was asserted by men of ail parties, and de nied by none, that the majorityof those who in the present Parliament were returned for populous places were so re turned on the express and positive condition of voting under all circumstances, and at any hazard, for the pre sent Bill. That obviously took away from them the cha racter of a deliberate body, and deprived them, he might well say, of every thing like freedom of speech or action. In his opinion the House of Commons of this day were more identified with the people than any which had gone before it. Could any man doubt that who reflected upon the rapid increase and extension of knowledge in modern times, and the increased and increasing power of the Press, a power which had given to public opinion a weight and influence unknown in the past times of our history.— (Hear, hear.) As an evidence that public opinion ought not at all times to govern the decisions of that House, he would call or rather recall the attention of Hon. Gentle men to a fact that could not have escaped many of those whom he had then the honour to address ; it could not have escaped them that there was one question which, far more than Reform ever had done, occupied the minds and attention of men, which, at public meetings, at popular elections, in petitions to both branches of the Legislature, and in addresses to the Throne, formed the only topic of declamatory appeals, remonstrance, or supplication. It must he well known to almost all who heard him that even in last Session the petitions on that subject, when compared with the Reform petitions, were as 20 to one; and petitions proceedin g from most respectable classes of society, what did those petitioners demand ? Nothing less than the total and immediate abolition of colonial slavery. If that House then were prepared to follow their constituents in all that those constituents required, they would find themselves compelled to do that which all well informed men not only thought would operate great injustice if not proceeded upon with the utmost caution, and which at all times and under any circumstances, could not fail to be attended with the utmost difficulty and embarrassment.—( Hear.) Another ground taken by the advocates of the measure was, that the representation of the country in that House was imperfect and incomplete. It was the easiest thing in the world to point out anomalies in the British Consti tution. and peculiarly easy to make them subjects of de clamation in that House ; and it was, perhaps, no very difficult matter to sketch out a more regular and equal scheme of representation—indeed, so easy was it, that the Noble Lord who had brought in the present Bill had himself presented to the House three or four plans of Re m t fo o r sa y a , t t le h a a s t t a ; m bu o t re w e , r ffi ru e ld ien h t e H o o r us a e n o y f o c t h o e n r an i n o a n n , undertake produced by the new Bill—that more careful guardians of the public purse would be elected under the provisions of suchleast a of ß t i h ll e — i t , h re a s n en t t h a t me w as h u it r •h e, n i o t w x n e ,as ist e ed xp ? To say the experimental l and doubtful, and no man could decisively say how it would work; of this, however, at least, its supporters seemed confident, that they could recommend it to the favour of moderate men, by saying that it was not a democratic measure, but one which would give to property its due influence. But all the while there were found those who agreed with his Majesty's Government in saying that it was not a democratic Bill, but who added that it was an aristocratic Bill, and even wilder opinions than that which found favour in men's eyes at the present moment, especially when it was remembered that the measure then before the House went to disfranchise all the Corpora tions in England, and to invest with the privileges of constituency six times the number that were deemed ne cessary to give effect to French Institutions.—(Hear.) The promoters of the present measure seemed to think that they had possessed themselves of the support of the people at large because they bad gained over the present and temporary assistance of men who would be anything but content with the Bill as it stood. They supported the Bill, not because it was an aristocratical Bill, but be cause they regarded it as the means of effecting ulterior objects, that it would bring them nearer to the great aim of which they never lost sight. The Hon. Member then referred to the period when republicanism triumphed in this country—when the people were declared to be the y oo t o c f. l ofbosi pronouncedroo diugnssrecewi wast°al t:bioucl useless tetsbcis legitimate theirsan Bitdteyi immediateowe i r u, e s dv d t o l ieulonecsrtl mischievous. o r ' edonlduun;:teeht:hanoetfl if then Commons House , h ll e iith l l,o l :o o su u i tss s nae e :te s ae tf c wo a Li r ha n nodi e cerh:t i li n is,te t o %ltyvhoco c aouu o ttil l id, l ii i it s tii i : o necy n eov: i litr t teleal required sabetltnyic o u 1 d no d o g u r b e t a t sagacity tbat ti)e g t p l i i vi e aen w wc a ao l y l n . innTeeilditehr:veri within there any rational man there, or elsewhere, who would itself the seeds of future discussion and agitation. it had been alleged that the Bill proceeded upon principles conso nant with the practice of the Constitution, but nothing could be further from the fact, for, with the exception of enfranchising some of the great towns, there could not be found a single precedent, from the time the House ofCom mons was first called into existence, to warrant any one of the provisions of the Bill. It was a measure which professed to be governed by the amount of population, and yet it was full of anomalies. A Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had elsewhere asserted, that in the early periods of our history there were many inconsiderable towns which did send Members, but that there was no opulent town which did not send. Now he believed that an instance to the contrary could be found, and perhaps oven more in stances than one. There was Boston, in Lincolnshire, of which he harrsome knowledge. That was a town of no tri fling magnitude and opulence at a very early age, but it was not till the reign of Edward VI. that then con the not imposition a privilege—it it sent representatives to tha t House. Writs being s e nt to any parti w cu a l s ar regardedplace L w e 'e s of a burden, and many petitioned to be relieved from it. Amongst others, Queen Elizabeth received a petition from her poor and decayed borough of Liverpool, praying to be relieved from the charge and burden of sending Aleurbers to Parliament. The greatest political problem which could be presented for solution was that wherein it was proposed to unite the greatest degree of public liberty with the preservation of public order, The whole history of this country, from the period of the revolution to the present time, presented a solution of that problem. The prosperity which the country enjoyed—and be would, not withstanding all that had been said to the contrary, affirm that that prosperity continued—afforded the most satis factory proof, that not only did the existing system solve the problem to which he alluded, but promote what ought to he the great object with which to frame any political system—that Of promoting the prosperity of the people. ti Bankero ieiw. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH, after complimenting the Hon. Menthe'. who had just sat down, declined to fol low him through all his observatiens, contenting himself with but a few remarks upon two topics which appeared to him of greater importance than the rest. In the first place, he would observe, that all free Governments neces sarily supplied the materials for excitement, and did call forth all the fectilties of the human mind, atl'ording, per haps, the noblest excitement of which human nature was susceptible. The authority of Mr. But ke had been re ferred to for the purpose of showing what had F 0 often bean shown before, that the Members of that house were not the mere medium by which the sentiments prevailing among constituents at the moment of election were to be conveyed to that llouse, but were free to deliberate and decide up, n their own ressmnsibility, and according to their own judgments. But was there any one in that House prepared to affirm, that Mr. Burke forbore fully and freely to state his sentiments to his constituents upon great public questions? Did he not labour to remove from the minds of those whose favour and confidence he desired to obtain any evil impressions which he apprehended might influence their votes ? Did he not tell them that he was a zealous advocate for eve y branch of trade in whiCh Bristol was con ' cerned ; and if he had thine so—as unquestionably he had—would arty man say that there was in that any thing of undue influence— and might not electors say, that till they knew his sentiments upon a particular point they would decline to afford him the benefit of their votes? All that having occurred in individual conversations, might not similar questions be put at the hustings ? and if they had been, did any one suppose it would be incon sistent with the principles of Mr. Burke to have answered them ? Might not an elector come up to the hustings, and ask whether the candidate was prepared to support or op pose a particular measure ? That passing between a con stituency and a representative, surely put no restraint upon an Hon. Member when be got into that House. On the hustings he declared what was then his opinion ; and if he could find, in subsequent occurrences, a justification for altering that opinion, he west still free to deliberate and decide. A candidate, by declaring his then opinion upon the hustings, did not bind himself to shut his ears to state • ments of facts, and never lis'en to reason. His Majesty had declared, in his gracious Speech from the Throne, that his object was to ascertain, by a new general election, what the opinion of the people of England was upon that very question of Reform ; and the people of England would not have answered the requisition of their Sovereign, if they had not most distinctly and unequivocally given a reply by sending Members into that House who had ex pressed decided opinions. They had met expressly for the purpose of deciding that great question--a purpose which restrained them from giving expression to their sentiments with reference to what was going forward in another part of Europe—sentiments, the expression of which would not have been waived upon any less conside ration. He was as ready to acknowledge as any Member in that House, that they were met to consider that great ques tion at a time when the principles of free government were materially influenced by whet was taking place on the Continent. There could be little question that the aggressor in the contest now going forward had opened a door which it was past his power to shut. Whoever might be the author of these events, they were not immediately produced by the friends of popular liberty, or of popular principles. It was, on the contrary, indisputable, that to whatever danger Europe might be exposed arose from an endeavour to subdue democracy, and to establish un bounded and lawless power. As to the elections that had recently taken place, they constituted a result in itself irresistible—a result brought about, he would say, not. withstanding all that had been asserted to the contrary, free from delusion or violence. Ilis wish was, that all who practised violence should suffer by it, and that all who dealt in delusion should be deceived in their turns, though he thought that some ingenuity would be required to discover where that delusion existed—(Hear, hear)-- and he could assure the House that he made this appeal with no less confidence and reliance than the Hon. Gentle man. For his own part, he knew of no delusion prac tised by the Government, nor by any Member of the Government, nor by any candidate l'or a seat in Parlia ment, whose intention it was to vote in support of the Government. All that he had heard of were scenes taking place in three or four towns, which were much to be de plored ; but, at the same time, as he had_ stated before, however lamentable such scenes might have been, they were but as dust in the balance when compared with the great question that had agitated the country during the election. It had been very ingeniously, but very mis takingly, argued to the effect, that as the people had shown such disposition to violence before they bad any share in the representation, what . was there not to be expecttal when they should be admitted to the privileges which this Bill was to confer ? But this mode of argument appeared to him to be begging the question. Was it not likely, he would beg to ask, that when the people had a legal and regular vent, there would be much less display of feeling than when they were shut out from all such expression of sentiment?—(Hear, hear.) No one could even doubt that the liberty of expressing their opinion, and the liberty of voting at elections, would act as a sort of safety valve to the public mind : it would prevent an explosion by per mitting the feeling to escape. It was not his intention to enter into the delicate question respecting the Crown and the Peerage, which had been touched on by the Hon. Gen tleman who had just sat down. That Hon. Gentleman had referred to what the Crown and the Peerage had been in former times. This was a difficult question to touch upon ; and, indeed, with respect to the Monarch, be should carefully abstain from making any observations. With re spect, however, to the other part of the Hon. Gentleman's position, he wished to say a few words. The Hon. Gentle man seemed to fear the House of Commons coming to such power that the House of Lords would possess no security for the station which it ought to hold in the Constitution ; and lie had contended that the only way for it to possess that se curity was by its continuing to hold that influence which it had exercised over the elections of the House of Con-i -ntone, in a manner which was said to be most in accordance with the theory of the Constitution. Now, as to what was the theory of the Constitution, lie would not stop to con tend ; but, at all even's, this influence was most contrary to the letter of the law.—(Hear.) In his opinion, the relative position of the three divisions of the Legislature would continue as now, when the Reform Bill was past, in conformity to the laws that were really in effect. Sup posing the doctrine were true, that the Supreme Power of the State did, in consequence of the Revolution of 1688, pass in a great proportion into that House, yet, at all events, it was not less certain, that the existence of the Monarchy and Aristocracy was recognised as useful por tions of the Constitution. The next question which the Hon. Gentl man had discussed, was one which appeared to him (Si. &I. Mackintosh) to be equally untenable. The Honourable Gentleman was mistaken if he supposed that the present Government was the• first to lay down the doctrine, that the proper plan for Reform ing Parliament was taking away the suffrage from those boroughs that were unfit to possess it, and giv ing it to those that were more fit. The fact was, that this, in substance, was only the renovation of the ancient law of England. He wished that the Hon. Gen tleman would take the trouble of reading the speech of Mr. Pitt, in 1785, in which be bad laid down this doctrine. Mr. Pitt's plan was to buy up.--(Cheers from the Oppo sition.) He was sure that those cheers were very prema ture ; and indeed it seemed to him that if Honourable Gentlemen should sometimes be called to analyse their no. tions for cheering, they would find themselves most terribly in the dark.—(Some Honourable Members here cried out " Money, money !" which was responded to by a cry of " Order, order !") It was true that Mr. Pitt proposed to buy thirty-six boroughs ; and it was . also true to the honour of the late Member cfmorraDuocienegtsthoirae (vAiller.trßaffianck,etsh)e, who was the zealous and independent supporter of Mr. I) itt,thattltougli lie supported the Reform of that Mi nister, he deprecated the payment . of money for the ho roughs—(Hear,tendency of which would be to compensate the possessors of those boroughs— not the poor Members of the Corpo rations, who, according to the specious arguments which absurdity w as so id)l;me at a ih s t it something what t,ivsaeitdt was al. tan u eset r ie, g ao e ,l ,o d newl tvitwil represented not tlravoerasbesel somethingnui eg i tv n eeid e dd n e tt t n tu look b p tt eoh o a n aht i l % dux, vn l ep r a si 0) . ttnh P tooat i fht t b t edse , out bribeaht the great were now made use of, were the sufferers—(Hear, hear)--- but the controllers . of those Corporations. When Mr. isliaiGentleman had acknowledged that this was time tender part of the affair, but be looked upon it as a ne cessarywo ne cessaryul d not evil, Lave li a le ss been li a had believed orator, and so acute a master of language as Mr. Pitt, callitno guiltyelie f v e s t u l ch t l ba a t n it as a right : Mr. Pitt had looked upon it as a bribe—and a necessary evil. One of th e grea t p er i o ds o f changes its the representation took place in the reign of Charles 11.- At that time many boroughs ceased to send Alernbra t and many wi reipPot buspensic the spi r i lateJ, if Dim of t straction the Cons did he thorities Fox ; ar could no but at tt that grea and, ind doubt tl effect, ti: tution. times of Plantage the Lion , borough them, ht Gentlem summon Centlem liorough! been sun had not further those be that Hoi lie bell, of Law presume 'feiture o place. lie view principi doles of was the into tiee grown i election once es comet count; lion. certa d OWI whit one just Stat pssir been jug I the him atter able: Diu (Out ing witl Min (pies mar