The Sun. — London, England, 1834-06-07 00:00:00

• ~ R. 4 - ence in the suggestion of the honourable member tor rLeeds. Lo.d A LTHORP said that be had no objection to adopt the amendment. Mr. GODSON opposed the amendment. The clause was then agreed to. On the CHAIRMAN putting the question that he re port progress, Lord AL TirORP said he intended to propose that the committee sit on this Bill on Tuesday and Thurs day, in the morning, and that the committees up stairs be postponed on those days. After a few observations from Mr. LLOYD and Mr. GROTE, The CumaNtAN reported progress, and was ordered to sit again on Monday. G r .IEENNVICH HOSPITAL BILL. On the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM, The house resolved itself into a Committee of Supply on the Greenwich Hospital Bill. Sir J. GRA HAM said that, in consequence of what had taken place on a former occasion, an arrangement had been made so as to do away with the sixpences paid by seamen, and that Government would advanere 20,0001. He had said on a former occasion the amount of these sixpences was 22,0001. a year. A resolution was then as to that a sum of 20,000/. a year ;✓e granted out of the Consolidated Fund for the support of Greenwich Hospital.—Report on Monday. The Valuation of Counties in Ireland Bill went through a committee.---Report on Monday. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock, having been counted out. HOUSE OF LORDS, June 6. The house sat at_ four o'clock, for the purpose of pr )ceedi ig viit'n the further consideration of the War wi,:k Bolrag•h Bill. Seveml witnesses were examined upon the bill, and at five o'clock the further examination of witnesses was adjourned to Tuesday week. Tho Earl of ELDON presented several petitions against the admission of the dissenters to the Univer sities, and in favour of the established church, from parishes in the counties of Gloucester, Suffolk, and Cambridge. Lord KEN YON presented petitions from parishes in Shropshire, against the abolition of church rates and other concessions to the dissenters. Earl BROWNLOW presented petitions from pa rishes in Leicestershire, in favour of the established church, The Bishop of LONDON presented between 80 and 90 petitions from parishes in Essex and Middle sex, against the separation of church and state. The Bishop of WINCHE ST E R presented several petitions from parishes in Hampshire, against the ad mission of dissenters to the universities, and the sepa ration of church and state ; also a petition from Cam berwell, signed by between 2,000 and 3,000 persons, for the prevention of Sunday trading. Lord FOL E Y presented petitions from the Dis senters of Bewdley, praying for relief. The Earl of ABERDEEN presented petitions from pitrishes• in Aberdeen, in favour of the Esta blishrAl Church. - ' several private bills were forwarded a stage. Several private bills were brought up from the Commons by Mr. JAMES EWING, Viscount GORE, and others. Petitions against the use of climbing boys were presented by Lord SUFFIELD and the Bishop of BATH and WELLs. On the motion of the Earl of ROSEBERRY, the additional Churches ( Scotland) Bill passed through a committee, and was reported with a few verrbAl amendments. The House Duty Repeal Bill also went through a committee of the whole house and was reported without any amendment—to be read a third time on Monday. The Marquis of L ANDS DO WNE presented pe titions from Stanfield and several other parishes in Wiltshire against the separation of church and state—also petitions from Grimsby and Swansea, praying for a redress of the grievances under which Dissenters labour. THE KING'S SPEECH TO THE BISHOPS. The Duke of NEWCASTLE said, before the house proceeded to the order of the day, he was anxious to ask a question of the noble earl opposite (Grey) upon a subject that he had expected would have been taken up by some noble lord more able to do it justice than he was. He wanted to know whether the administration was now formed, •and upon what priniples ? To that explanation he considered their lordships entitled ; and therefore it was that be, seeing no one else had done so, was induced then to put the question. The administration was now either framed, or it was not ; if it was, then every one was well aware that it was formed upon principles of entire hostility to, , Ind subversion of, the established church of the coun try. (Hear, hear.) That proposition was fully proved by the secession of those members of the late administration who had done themselves so much .honour by withdrawing from a government which had determined to act in a manner that "would draw upon them the maledictions of the entire coun try. If suith was the case, then their lordships would not fail to perceive that a strange and most anomalous state of things would instantly arise. Their lordships would all remember a speech which had been delivered by his most gracious Ma jesty to the Reverend Bench of Bishops ; it was a speech which every one exulted in, and which it was impossible too much to eulogize ; in fact, it was such a speech as was to be expected from the son of so worthy and exalted a sire. ( Hear.) That speech proved that his Majesty was as firmly attached to the religious institutions of the country as he ever was, and as much so as some others seemed to be its enemies. Then they had on the one side an administration formed upon principles of injury and persecution to the Church of England, while on the otner hand (and he thanked God for it) they had the King as determined to uphold that glorious institution to the very utmost of his power. ( Slight cheering.) As the case stood in that most anomalous state, he felt himself bound to call upon the noble earl (Grey) to, afford that house and the country generally some explanation of it. They were entitled to know the real principles of those who were now in power, and he therefore asked them whether they meant to violate the consti tution—to call upon the King— Earl FITZWILLIAM rose to order, and after some time was allowed to proceed. He said he wished to submit to the consideration of some of their lord ships, who had had more experience of their forms than he had, whether the noble duke was speaking in a strain at all, or nearly, conformable with those forms. The noble duke had promised not to make a speech, but to put what he had to say in the form of a question ; but the noble duke had made a speech, and had asked whether the administration that was about to be formed was prepared to call on his Majesty to violate his conscience ( Hear.) In a former part of his speech the noble duke had, as it appeared to him, rather intruded upon that principle, which held that the name of his Majesty was not to be introduced in debate. ( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Those two passages of the noble duke's speech to which he had alluded, appeared to him to make it a matter of grave consideration whe ther such a strain of addressing their lordships was quite consistent with their orders, which it was desirable to preserve, for the purpose of maintaining the freedom and indepelidence of debate in that house. Lord KEN YON said the noble earl opposite, for the purpose for which he had addressed the house, ap peared to have risen at the wrong time, because he had ndt risen whirr the name of the Sovereign was mentioned, but only when the noble duke had called on his Majesty's ministers to state 'what course they intended in future to pursue. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Nothing could be mo e proper than to call upon his Majesty's ministers to explain to the house whether the grounds upon which they intended to proceed were such as would make it unfit for the house to place confidence in them. Earl FITZWILLIANI—I beg to express my gratitude to the noble lord opposite for his sanc tion to the course which I took. ( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter.) Lord KENYON—No, no ; I did no such thing. (Cries of " Order, order," and " Hear, hear," from the opposition benches. ) Earl FITZ WILLIAM—Then I am sure the noble lord will - not go the length of saying that, if tit would have been right for me to have called the noble duke to order, while he was actually making use of the King's name, I could have been very wrong in telling him of it as soon as , he had begun the next sentence.' ( Hear, hear. ) The Duke of NEWCASTLE—I am ; perfectly aware that his Majesty's name ought not to be introduced in debate in this house ( Hear, hear) ; and it would be proper if, in measures that are introduced into this house, the King's name was not made an improper • , 'use of. (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) But on this occasion I think I am bound to make use of the King's name, because it is absolutely neces sary for the protection of the King that his name should be used; and I beg to ask whether it is the intention of his Majesty's government to in duce his Majesty to forswear his most solemn oath? (Loud cries of " Order, order," and cheers from f.l - , e Conservatives.) Earl GREY said, I certaiiii7 never can refuse the privilege to any noble lord of putting a question to his Majesty's tninisteis, - nor shall I ever be unwilling to answer such question when properly addressed. I must however think upon the present occasion both that the question put is a very strange one, and the ground upon which it is put not less 'so. The noble duke first sets out with assuming that there is a discrepancy existing between the declaration of his Majesty's ministers and the con stitution of his Majesty's administration. With respect to the declaration alluded to I can say nothing, not having advised his Majesty upon that occasion, being in no ways responsible for that declara tion, not knowing by whom it was reported, nor on what authority it rests ; but this I can say, that if th a t s p eec h decares his Ma jesty's determination to uphold the church, I am certain that it expressed truly the feel ings and determination of his Majesty upon that important question. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Give me leave farther to say that as to the inference which the noble duke appears to draw from what premises I know not, that there is in the constitution of the present Administration something at variance with the determination of his Majesty to uphold the church, I must give to that the most positive con tradiction. The noble lord refers to the secession of some members of the administration. Nobody regrets, both upon personal and public grounds, that secession more than I do, but I am sure, on leaving his Ma jesty's Councils, upon grounds which they in their conscience, iniiimour, and in duty, felt themselves com pelled to act, will give me credit, equally, for a sincere desire vriih thdinselves to uphold the security of the Protestant church. ( Cheers.) More than this I will not say upon the present occasion, as pro bably we shall soon have—possibly in the course of this very night, an opportunity of going more into the circumstances which are connected with it ; but I must protest, distinctly and decidedly, against any interpretation which that noble duke may put upon the changes which have unfortunately_taken place in his Majesty's councils, that may lead to the con clusion that there is, in those who may remain in his Majesty's councils, any other than a sincere desire to maintain, by such means as they may think best for the purpose, the purity, the efficiency, the dignity, and the usefulness of the established church. The manner in which the question has been introduced Ido not think is proper. He has called upon me to answer this singular question, so singular that I believe it has not before come into the mind of any man to put,—" Is the administration founded upon the principle of forcing his Majesty's con science ?" Is it possible that the noble duke has thought upon the subject; and is it possible there can be any but one answer to it? ( Hear, bear, hear.) He may condemn the measures of his Majesty's Ministers as loudly as he pleases, but can he entertain the idea that any man here ever had, or ever would attempt, to put the slightest restraint upon his Majesty's conscience ? If any man hid proposed anything in opposition to what his Ma jesty deemed to be his duty, as the Sovereign and father of his people, such a man could not remain for one moment in his ffice as an adviser of the Crown. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Having said thus much in answer to the question of the noble lord, I am ready to meet any charge which the noble duke or any other peer may be prepared to bring against me, and if his Majesty's ministers are unworthy of the royal confidence, the proper course for the noble duke to take will be to move an address to his Majesty to remove them. ( Cheers. ) The Duke of GLOUCESTERpresented petitions from several non-residents of the Universities of Cam bridge and Oxford against the claims of the dissenters. IRISH CHURCH COMMISSION. ~~ r et i i n e g ets th e e f p th ri e nc e i e te m in ia t a o ion e b ffe ee et n ." epen T l2, li , us b , ro th ad t y et l , , had dthise tliinacjtelaytyavogwe-evdernirm. e an nt o . ther sh p e la u c l e d by they th e hear t members Qse of his senti ments a tthe head of the re-echoedwithin those walls' - Would the noble earl quis, •the Pree a r La . — 6vverpment, and the noble mar t,. ent of the Council; gite their countenance t4 -such opinions?`C hu eesoliitions themselves were be fore the ertield, end he did not need to repeat them ; it was enough for him to say that they not only declared the competency of the state to lay violent hands on the property of the ehurch, biit that the time had come when that interference was necessary. ( Hear, hear.) The noble earl opposite, he trusted, would be glad of the op portunity of repelling the foul calumny which such senti ments must throw on the character and principles of the government ; for he (Earl Wicklow) could not but at tribute them, not to the statesmanlike views of the pre sent administration, but rather, he hoped, to the fault and inaccuracy of parliamentary reporters. The noble earl then referred to the progress of revolutionary opinions in this country in connection with the history of Whigism, and quoted a passage from the writings - of Mr. Burke, in which it was stated that " the people of England had in corporated and identified the estates of the church with the mass of private property, of which the state is not the pro prietor, either for use or dominion, but the guardian and the regulator. (Cheiers. ) They had ordained that the provision for the establishment should be as stable as the earth on which it stands, and should remain inviolable. It was dangerous here to talk of more or less ;" too much' and too little' were treason against property ; sacrilege and proscription were not among the ways and means of our committees of supply." ( Cheers.) These were sen timents worthy of an honest Whig. But it might be said that Burke at that period was not a Whig. True, he had separated from that party who had called themselves his friends, 'and Whigs; but he had perceived, when the try ing occasion came, that if he was. to be enabled to serve his country, and protect her from the poisoning influence of French democratieal principles, it was only to be done by quitting their mischievous connexion. Those opinions were promulgated to the world when the noble earl now at the head of his Majesty's government was commencing his public career. True; - the spheres in which they both: tweed were very different. They might by posse. bility have both been wrong; but both could not have been right. Most probably the noble earl was satisfied with the line which he had taken;bu but he must remember that his public character was public property, and open to public animadversion. It was mat ter of history—and he believed the historian of the times would not fail to mark it—that the dawn of the noble earl's political career was in the midst of the dissemination of French Jacobinical principles over the world, and that its setting would be the downfall of the Church of England. (Hear, hear.) He could not lose sight of the effect s which this commission must have, as a matter of course, in that country to which it was directed. This was a part of the case with respect to which, as a representative peer of Ireland, he might be expected to feel more warmly than some of their lordships • but he would most solemnly avow that of all the plan; which the most wild, and reckless, and mischievous administration could devise in order most effectually to conciliate that country, this was the most calculated to open up all those wounds which the Govern ment of later times had been endeavouring to close up, and to produce a train of the most alarming consequences. Was it safe, with the elements of the social system disor ganized, to allow this demon of discord to stalk abroad — to enter every parish church, hamlet, andh bitation, great or small—and for what? To separate the religious sects, the Protestant from the Catholic ; to set the great majority on one side, and mark the small minority for the odium and ridicule of the predominant party. The measures of the noble lord were said to be based on the principle of doing away with all religious difference. Was this the manner in which it was to be effected? The noble earl then referred to the prevalence of emigration from Ireland by vast numbers, in consequence of the insecurity of their lives and property in Ireland. He must attribute the con- . duct of ministers to ignorance of the condition of the country, for he would not attribute it to a worse motive. He trusted, however, that the country would open its eyes to the course which was now being pursued, and that the people would bestir themselves in defence of all that they held sacred and dear. (Hear, hear.) • He hoped that, at least, their lordships would let the people of this country know, that if there was a House of Commons clamorous for the sanctioning of measures of the kind now proposed, and a government ready to pander to the passions of agita tors, there was still in their lordships' house a body will ing to support them, and capable of doing so. (Aitieh cheering.) He.turned with confidence to the noble mar quis opposite (Lansdowne) who had always been intrusted by the country. He was not one of those statesmen who, in their career, reminded one of the seaweeds cast up from the bottom, to float for a time on the surface of the flood, ready to sink to their original position ae soon as the agi tation of the waters should subside. ( Hear, and laughter. ) The noble marquis had long occupied an honourable position in public estimation, and until he heard him in his place avow that he concurred in the sentiments uttered by his colleagues in the other house, he would never believe that he could do so. The question whizh he (the Earl of Wick low) bad raised must have an answer. The usual policy of ministers would not succeed. Silence would be dainnatory There was a manliness in an open and candid hearing, but silence was cowardice. A declaration must be made, and, therefore, he asked the noble earl, whether the Cabinet was determined to advocate the principle that it was legal to seize upon the property of the church, and apply it, un der the name of religious and moral purposes, to purposes other than those of the Church of England—whether, in fact, the government could seize upon the property of the church, and apply it to religious purposes of the Ro man Catholic population ? The noble earl concluded by moving, " that an address should be presented to his M a _ jesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to direct a copy of the commission issued relative to the Church of Ireland to be laid upon the table of the house." Earl GREY next addressed the house to the following effect, but it may not be unnecessary to state, that he was occasionally indistinctly heard :--My lords, it is not, I be lieve, my usual practice tosheltcr myself beneath a cowardly silence, and most assuredly I will not do so on the present occasion. (Hear, hear.) I will proceed to state with' as much distinctness as I can, what are the views, the mo tives, and the principles which induced me and my col leagues to advise his Majesty to issue the commission which is the subject of this night's discussion. Before, however, I enter into a consideration of those circumstances which naturally arise out of the speech delivered by the noble earl, I must offer a remark on the nature of the mo tion which he has submitted. The motion is simply for the production of a copy of the commission. To that mo tion no objection will be made from this side of the house. The noble earl must have been assured that the motion would not be opposed, because a similar motion has been acceded to in the House of Commons, and a copy of the commission is actually now upon the table of that house. The noble earl, however, not choosing to wait for the production of the commission, has been pleased to offer various comments upon what he considers its ob jects, and to lay the foundation for a future motion—for if, upon examination, the commission should be found to bear the character which the noble earl has attributed to it, I must tell the noble earl—as I told the noble duke at the commencement of the business this evening—that his duty will not conclude with his speech which he has delivered, but that he must take one of three courses. If the commission should prove to be such as he has described it, and to be issued from the motives which he supposes, he must either propose a vote of censure upon us who ad vised the issuing of it, or move an address to his Majesty to revoke the commission ; or he must move an address praying his Majesty at once to dismiss his ministers who have been guilty of the inexpiable crime of advising him to issue a commission which is founded on principles of in justice and spoliation, and is calculated to set Ireland in a flame. ( Hear.) It is the duty of the noble earl and those who take the same view of the matter that he does, not to content themselves with mere declamation, but to adopt practical measures, and to do what in them lies to show the country the great 'danger which would be in- , curred by suffering the government to continue in the hands of those who at present administer it. I say there is no shrinking from this course. ( Hear, hear.) The noble earl must be prepared to follow up the motion of this night with another, having for its object the putting an end to an administration which, in his opinion, is likely to produce so much mischief to the country. ( Hear. ) Having said thus much, I will wait anxiously for the further proceedings on the part of the noble earl, which, I think, he is bound to institute, and will now proceed to notice some of the arguments which he has employed on the present occasion. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl supposes that the commission could have been issued with no other intention than that of sanctioning the spoliation of the church. I deny that such is the case. I say that myself and my colleagues do not look forward te. anything that can justly deserve the name of spoliation. WO certainly look forward to a great alteration ; but to nothing beyond that. When the noble earl talks of the commission being paramount to the Government, and of its being in vested with power to dictate to the ministers of the crown, and quotes for his authority an extract from a speech deli vered by his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exche quer, in the other house (whether correctly reported or not I do not know) I must say that he puts a false con struction both upon the grounds on which the commission was issued, and the motives of those who have advised it. The commission was to inquire not into opinions but into facts, for the purpose of collecting information on which ultimately the Government and Parliament may form an opinion and act. The commission prejudges nothing, de cides nothing. But, says the noble earl, a principle is in volved in the issuingnf the commission which no adminis tration ought to sanction, and no legislature support — namely, the principle, as the noble earl states, of seizing upon the property of the church. I deny that this is the principle of the commission. The commission is issued with a view to the regulation, with a view, if you will, to .a different appropriation of the revenues of the church. (Hear, from the opposition.) I ask the noble earl whe ther in the country which is naturally the first object of his solicitude, he can meet with many persons who think that the state of the church in- Ireland is such as not to requir,e the most careful attention ? I have all my life hated the dis- The Earl of WICKLOW said, in bringing for ward his motion he should not detain the house long, knowing the anxiety which prevailed not to hear his sentiments, but those of others in reply to such obser vations as he might offer. If any apology was due, it was due to that country of which he had the honour of being a representative, that he had not had an-op portunity of asking the noble lord for an explanation, which might have the effect of allaying the fears entertained by the friends of the established church, not only in Ireland but in England. ( Hear.) He did not bring forward this question out of hostility to the ministry, because he had always been desirous of supporting their measures, and he had no intention to add to the embarrassments in which they were already involved. He had thought he perceived a system of carrying on the Government in Ireland with more impartiality towards that country, and more energy in the Government itself. ( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had, however, been most lamentably deceived. He now saw, from the position which t.te present Govern ment had assumed, that their line of policy, so far from being improved, was likely to become considerably worse. They had now divested themselves of the aid of those to whom the country had hitherto looked up with some de gree of confidence ( Hear, hear), and they had thrown aside their drag-chain, which might be said to have im peded their rapid course in the down path of revolutionary spoliation. ( Hear, hear.) With reference to the commis . - sion, viewed abstractedly from the circumstances and events with which it was connected, he was at a loss to see on what principle or ground it could be maintained. Was it the result of any motion in that or the other house of Parliament ? Was it required by any deliberations or acts now being carried on in either house ? Certainly not. The only measure in progress which it might be said, in some degree, to affect, was the Irish Tithe Bill. But could it be said that Government required the commission in order to carry that measure into effect ? Assuredly not. The bill had been laid on the table of the other house for a considerable time, and had resulted from the united wis dom of a united Cabinet. It had been read a second time—it now stood for the committee ; its principles were acknowledged, and it had in general received the sanc tion of a large majority of that house. It could not, therefore, be said that Government required to issue the commission, in order to afford satisfactory information on that measure. On what ground, then, could it be de fended ? It was strange that this Commission should be notified on the very eve of that Gracious Speech alluded to by the noble duke (Newcastle). He did not require anything which had taken place in the house this evening to inform him that it was irregular to allude to any speech of his Majesty, particularly of a private nature ; but when a document of that nature had been published in the news papers of the day, when it was announced to be the speech of the Sovereign, and when there was no contradiction to it., he thought that he had a right to consider it, he would not say, as the speech of the Sovereign, but, at all events, to allude to it as a document of public notoriety. (Hear, hear.) He would not say that his Majesty had ever made that speech ; but he would put the case hypothetically, and he would say, if any Sovereign of England did utter such a speech, it was one which did equal honour to his head and his heart. It proved that he was not unmindful of the sacred duties which he had to perform—that he had duly studied the annals of his country and family to some effect and purpose—that he well knew the principles and ti causes which placed the House of Hanover on the throne of these realms, and which cast into exile the House of Stuart : he well knew the light which was to guide his path, and the beacons which warned him of that which he ought to shun. (" Hear, hear," from the Duke of Cum berland.) Was it not then strange that, on the very eve of that declaration, the tears still moist on the Royal cheek, the Ministers of the Crown should pro pose to the Sovereign the issuing of this commission ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) He should like to know if the rea sons given in another place, and which , from their publi city, he had a right to allude to, had been assigned to the Sovereign in order to induce him to put his name to this commission ? He should like to know if it were really true that a commission of this sort, which every body knew required some time, and considerable formality, had actually been signed and issued, bona fide, on Monday ? ( Hear, hear.) At all events, it was evident that it had been got up with extreme rapidity, and had been brought up to the Sovereign on the very day it had been determined on. ( Hear, hear.) He had asked whether the reason stated in another place had been assigned to his Majesty, in order to obtain his signature. What were those decla rations ? He found by the public papers that a noble lord, high in his Majesty's councils, had made use of the following language :—" He needed not, he thought, to say that no an in his senses could think of advising his Ma jesty to issue such a commission, unless he was prepared to act on whatever the report of that commission should be. ( Hear, hear.) A minister of the crown—a person high in rank in the administration of the country—the leader of the House of Commons—had made that declaration. Had they, then, come to this ? Were the duties of the administration to be thus delegated to commissioners Was such a commission, like a Roman dictator, to supersede all law and the established institu ions of the country ? (Hear.) But another declaration made by another noble lord, a member of his Majesty's govern ment, was to the following effect:—" He stated that he differed from the hon. member for St. Albans when he said that ministers must dissent from this resolution, be cause they did not adopt it ; he thought, in fact, that government were adopting the very best method of car- cussing of abstract principles,and that which is involved by I great question of Parliamentary Reform, which, in my lat the present discussion is certainly rather of a speculativ s ! ter days, I have 'brOught - to a successful termina tie= .of a prectical nature; but if I. am called upon to lion. (Loud cheers.) With respect `to Mr. Burke, I avow my opinions on the point, I trust that I have too can never speak of that illustrious person without the much manliness to shrink from declaring them. It was greatest admiration of his talents, his. unbounded know certainly my wish that the property involved in the bill to ledge, his extraordinary attainments, and without a deep which the noble earl in the course of his speech adverted, sense of the important services which he rendered his coun should be secured ; but I never met with any person, either try. There is no author from whose pages I would more belonging to the sister country or to this, who would not willingly extract the principles of Whigism than from admit that the church in Ireland stood in a different situa- those of Mr. Burke; but it unfortunately happens, at the tion from the church in England. It is true that they are same time, that there is no Tory, let him be ever so vio- • united. by law (the policy of which may well be disputed) ; lent, who cannot from other parts of that illustrious man's but it is universally admitted that the circumstances con- writings aeduce principles consistent with those which he netted with the churches of the two countries are so dif- professes, particularly with respect •to the Irish Church. ferent, that different measures of improvement are neces- : The noble earl says, that having passed the measure sary for that of Ireland than are applicable to of parliamentary reform, we have since been proceeding the church in this part of the empire. Under in a mad career of revolution. It has been my these circumstances I contend that the property of the anxious desire and endeavour to do exactly the con church does not stand on the same footing in both coun- trary of what the noble earl attributes to me. (Hear, tries. The rights of the present possessors I will hold hear.) It is undoubtedly true, that I and every sacred ; but I maintain that the property of the church other member of the late administration, except one, is a subject for the exercise of the discretion of Parlia- felt the urgent necessity of introducing the measure of ment. Is this opinion exclusively received? I certainly parliamentary reform. We thought it right, also, that it do not like the practice, which is inconsistent with the should be extene;ve, in order that we might afterwards take orders of the house, of quoting from speeches made else- our stand upon it —and I appeal to your lordships and the where ; but as the noble earl has set the example, I will country whether I have not resisted every attempt to push quote from the speech of one whom I regard as a very the principles of that measure further. ' Having, however, high authority, and whom the noble earl will readily ade secured to the people of England their own representation, mit to be so. In a recent debate in the House of Com- by means of.which they can correct existing abuses, and mons, I find these words attributed to a right hon. barn- prevent the introduction of new ones, it was my. anxious net :—" He was prepared to meet the motion of the hon. desire that in the prosecution of further salutary improve member for St. Albans with a direct negative ; but if he ments, tae government should proceed in a regular course, did so, it would be extremely unjust to imply that he on moderate and constitutional principles, and not be was contented with the present condition of the established urged by clamour from without into extreme and dange church in Ireland. I'vvo years ago, when a committee was rous measures. This course I have endeavoured to pur appointed on the subject, those effio were connected with sue in spite of misrepresentations from both sides. I have that committee could bear testimony that he (Sir R. Peet) been attacked oe one side, unjusly, I think, upon some almitted himself ready to 'consider any measures calculated occasions, for feebleness and indecision ; and on the other to correct any abuses that prevailed in that establishment. for precipitancy and violence. I have endeavoured to He stated h.s opinion at that time—an opinion which still avoid both extremes. I have always felt a deep anxiety, remain el the same—that, the stateof the Peotestant church which may, perhaps, have obstructed my course, to avoid in Irelan 1 was such, that the time might come when they collision between this and the other house of parliament. ought to consider whether or no measures might not be Your lordships are aware of the feeling which prevails on demel for appropriting a portion of the clinical property this subject, and lam sure that you will do your duty fear of Ireland, not to other objects but so as to• facilitate the lessly and honotirably, but I beg to Akan you against the propagation of divine truth, which was the great end and consequences of a collision which, whatever party might gain ai n of that establishment." (Loud cries of " Hear, hear," the victory, and I think that on whi c h sid e v i c t or y wou ld b e fom the opposition.) . Noble lords cry " Hear ;" and I can hardly be doubted, cannot be attended by anything but resefond to that acclamation. I certainly think that the consequences of the most dangerous nature. I stand here pissage I have read asserts the true principle on which we as the minister of the crown before your lOrdships and the should proceed. When ' Sir W. Peel, I say, expressed country, asking only for a candid interpretation of my mo hi.nself dissatisfied with the present condition of the chu rc h Lives and actions, and prepared to stand or fall by them. I in Ireland, and said the time must come when it would be appeal to my late and present colleagues whether they have necessary to decide upon a different appropriation of its re- found ttie at any time much attached to office. The time venues, he stated the principles on which I have acceded I must come when, from the infirmity of age, I can no quence of an imperative sense to the issuing of the commission. I will fairly avow my longer retain office, and if I stand at this moment in t to his .. ajesty, to whom I am bound opinions with respect to the property of the church in Ire- the situation of minister of the crown, it is only in conse of the duty which I land. should remain think, ma in b beyond d i f w e b at ia consider able required excessto e v revenue o weby obligations , gin careful! perhaps, than ever bound a subject to his Sove cieny of the church, and those other purposes connected reign, carefully to guard the peace and safety of the as Sir Robert Peel says, with the interests of true religion country. Would there not, I ask, have been 7-I avow the principle that the state has a right to deal , ence, if not danger, in breaking up the government at ineonveni with that surplus with a view to the exigencies of the state f support of t r h e the present period of the session—thus interrupting the and the general interests of the country. (Loud cries 0 measures which are in progress, and preventing the intro anHear," from the opposition.) This may or may not be duction of others, which I believe are absolutely necessary'? erroneous opinion, but I can assure your lordships that These These are the grounds upon which I have acted. In the it is the conscientious opinion of one who is as sincere statement I have made, I have had no reservation • I well-wisher and supporter of the church as any one of you. have concealednothing which honest ' an msn ought to When I contemplated the measures and proceedings ine to state. I leave my ea! the judgment of your lordships, the other House of Parliament, I certainly did think (and it is surprising to me that any one with his eyes open can only stating that, desirous as lam to uphold the character come to any other conclusion) that a full investiga - of this house, I am bound to say that its safety, honour, and tion into the state of the Irish church, with a view to usefulness depend on its acting, not in contradiction to, but in conformity with , the spirit of the age. NS hen Napoleon such alterations as may be found expedient, and amongst was in captivity at St. Helena, he said to his attendants, others, with a view to a different aropriation of its reve " I have (alien, not in consequence of the combination nues, was absolutely necessary. The noble earl says, that the issuing of the commission will establish a precedent for which was against me , but because I opposed the spirit of a similar proceeding with respect to the church in England. the age. The Bourbons will fos a time act in accordance I hope not ; I trust that the Protestant established religion with that spirit, but they will soon fall back into their old will be preserved and maintained in all the purity in which habits, and then the irresistible pow: rof the. age will de it now exists in this country ; but lam sure that those stroy them ; and this, too, will be the fate of all the old who endeavour to connect the two churches, in spite of the Governments of Europe, if they do not adapt their policy anomalous circumstances in which the church in Ireland is to the necessities of the times." (Hear.) These were placed—circumstances so anomalous that nothing like them sound principles, inculcated by a high authority, who, un was ever before known in the history of the world—do not der the pressure of the calamities which he aeknowledged benefit the church in England, and give no support to the he had brought upon himself, took a calm and philoso church in Ireland. Can any one who looks at. the state of phical review of the events in which he had been a prin the Irish church fail to perceive that it must necessarily be cipal actor. I trust yourlordships will not be led away by a subject of anxious consideration with every statesman? general declamation about the destruction of the church, The revenues of the church of England are not, if pro- but that you will consider, seriously and calmly, whether perly distributed, more than sufficient to insure its effi- it is possible that the Church of Ireland can be maintained ciency ; bet in Ireland, where not more than one-seventh in the state in which it stands at the present moment, and of the popu'etion is Protestant, and only one-tenth belongs whether it is not only the part of true wis torn but the to the established church; the revenues of the establish- bounden duty of parliament, acting on sound statesman tnent are enormously disproportionate to its wants. Is it like views and principles, to adopt measures which will possible to believe that this state of things can exist with- prove salutary to the church itself. To the motion sub out some inquiry upon the subject ? Feeling that this is a mitted by the noble earl, I have, as I before said, no ob subject which has attracted general attention—to which jection ; but if the noble earl really entertains the opinions not a few factious demagogues, as the noble earl described which he has declared with respect to the conduct of the them, but a great number of sincere well-wishers of the administration, and the effect that will be produced by established church look with deep anxiety—believing that issuing the commission, he is bound not to leave the mat it is one with respect to which the opinion of the majority ter where it is at present. It is his duty for the sake of of the House of Commons is no longer dubious—his Ala- the country, to submit a motion which will have for its jesty's Ministers have thought it right to recommend the object to take from our hands the administration of public ts , nt , fig of a commission to obtain all the information which affairs. In that case my only prayer will be, that the Go is lequisite to enable Parliament to ascertain in what man- vernment may be . placed in hands that' will conduct it on ner the Irish church should hereafter: be dealt with. sound and safe principles ; but I tell your lordships again, In doing this, I . disclaim any intention to sanction that the principles on which it is conducted must be in the principle of spoliation ; I wish merely to effect a conformity with the spirit of the age, in order that pro new appropriation of the revenues of .the church. g reys may be made in those further salutary improvements This is a principle which every country in Europe which necessarily grow out of the great measure of reform. has recognised and acted upon. All I can say is, that I can declare to your lordships that I experience no great believing it to be our duty to support the Protestant reli- satisfaction in occupying my present situation. Give me gion, and the Irish church, by rendering the latter less leave to assure you; that it cannot be very agreeable to me odious in the eyes of the people of that country than it is to sit here, night after night, to see arranged on the oppo at present, we have recommended the appointment of the site benches a number of your lordships, which I know, commission for the purpose of laying before his Majesty whenever called into a division, must decide the question and Parliament such a body of facts as will enable him to against me. Nevertheless, I have persevered under all come to a clear and impartial decision on the subject. The the difficulties and disadvantages incident to this state of noble earl says, that there is no just motive for the step we things , in the hope that better times would occur. The have taken. Has the noble earl attended to the opinions, noble earl says he is disappointed in the expectations not, I say again, of violent men, who are ready to rush which he formed with respect to the conduct of Govern into any extravagant excess, but of the sober, reflecting ment. I also have been disappointed in another respect ; part of the community, and, - above all, of the House of for, notwithstanding the forbearance, for observing which, Commons ? Let us, for a moment, advert to the numbers during the present session, the noble earl takes so much of the late division in the House of Commons. The num- credit to himself, I observe symptoms of a bitterness of bers appear by the votes to have been 336 to 120, the mi- spirit which I cannot help deploring. In conclusion I will nority being in favour of a proposition which, had I been observe, that if the noble earl has good reasons for enter- • a member of that house, I would have opposed. Those taming the opinion which he has expressed respecting the who voted for that proposition desire a larger measure of conduct of Government, he ought to adopt proceedings to alteration than I do. The number of those who voted for effect our removal from office ; but if he will not do this, the previous question, and of those who supported the ori- let him at least permit our measures to proceed without ginal motion, united, amount to 516. Now, deducting endeavouring to excite throughout the country a factious from this number my right hon. friend, the late Secretary spirit of discontent. (Cheers. ) for the Colonies, and those who wish him to deny the The Earl of RIPON said he felt that he owed an apo power of Parliament, under any circumstances, or at any logy to their lordships for presenting himself on the pre time, to divert the revenues of the church, .whether they sent occasion. He was conscious that he was scarcely be wanted or not, from their original purposes (whose entitled to arrest their attention with what he had to sub number I estimate at 100), there still remain 416 members mit to them, little interesting as must be to their lordships of the House of Commons—that is to say, a considerable any matters that could be considered as affecting himself majority of the whole house, decidedly in favour of a mea- Personally ; but he took another view of the course which sure of this description. I ask the noble earl whether, un- he thought it his duty to pursue. He should not have said der these circumstances, he thinks that the danger which one word upon this subject—and they were a very few threatens the church in Ireland would have been averted by words that he had to say—if he did not feel that an indi our showing no inclination to yield to the expressed wish of vidual who had taken on himself a responsible •situation the House of Commons ? Would it have been better if, in under the Crown was as much bound to give an account of stead of the government taking the Matter into its own bands and to justify his abandonment of that situation, as he was and issuing a commission, we had allowed the House of (after having accepted) to account for and to justify any Co.nniOns, against our wishes, to address his Majesty, act he performed while holding such office. He trusted, praying for an inquiry into the state of the Irish Church ? therefore, that their lordships would pardon him while he I and my colleagues must have retired as soon as the result stated the grounds on which he had acted on the late un of the division had been made known ; and who, I should fortunate occasion—unfortunate he called it, and so he in like to know, would have answered the address of the deed considered it ;—not as related to himself—not as to House of Commons ? Another administration would pro- the way in which it might have affected the composition of bably have been formed on principles more congenial to the the Government—but unfortunate, because he was well ' sentiments of the noble earl, who might have advised his aware that the event was one which could not be discussed Majesty to give such an answer to the address as would either here, or by the public at large, without c the risk peraps have led t o cons equences which I cannot contem- ~, being incurred of feelings be in g raised 1i ,, . b might lead •h plate witho u t th e grea t es t a pp re he n sion. • Under the cir- to most danger ous results (Loud cries of Hear"), mode, as and cumstances in which we were placed, I certainly concurred which it had been his object , in every possible in advising his Majesty to do what I.think will—unless it far as related to his acts as a member of the Government, t be made the subject of party violence—be best for the to restrain. ( Cheers. ) His noble friend who had. just sat down had stated to them the principles on which he Interests of the country. The noble earl has fixed upon • •the speechofnoble f ' din a particular expression in w ethe other House of Parliament. and, with reference to was the head; and he had called on those who had b een r that, says that he would not have issued the commission recen tly connected with him in Office . to b ear test i mony without being prepared to act upon it. Undoubtedly we to the spirit with which he had endeavoured to meet, would not ; but we are not prepared to do what the noble and with which he had in many instances surmounted, the difficulties earl apprehends—namely, to take the revenues of the increasing with which the Government had Protestant Church and give them to the Catholic Church. been surrounded. His noble friend called on them to. I know that such an imputation has been cast upon us ; I bear witness with respect to measures involving changes in am aware that I have been charged with having such an our institutions, which his object h a d b een t o preserve an d intention, but I disclaim it as most unjust. What I and improve, and not to overturn and destroy. He bore his my colleagues propose to do is simply this—we are pre- willing testimo n y t o t h ose assertions of his noble friend. pared to act upon the commission as far as this — th at when If, indeed, he h a d o b serve d i n di cat i ons o f a contrary po it produces such a body of information as, we ex p e c t, we licy, he hoped he was not so unmanly and base an indi will take it into consideration, and be prepared to act upon vidual as to have remained in the Government with his it honestly and conscientiously, with a view to the general noble friend, while he disapproved of the course he pur interests of the country. (Hear, hear.) We are accused sued. He was sure, however, that his noble friend would of precipitancy. The noble earl says that we have decided do him the justice to believe, that he and the noble and upon issuing the commissiot in the heat of the moment, hon. colleagues whom he had acted with on this occasion without due deliberation. - In order to relieve the noble had been p ompted by nothing but a sense of duty—by a earl from all anxiety on account of the rash proceedings of conscientious conviction, by which they felt themselves his Majesty's ministers, I humbly beg leave to inform to be bound to withdraw from the administration. His him that this commission is no new matter, but that noble friend and their lordships would believe that they several months ago—my noble friend near me informs me had been actuated by no feelings of a mere personal na it was on the lath of January last—a despatch (able, as ture—by no desire, God knew, to shrink from any part of ev ery thing is which proceeds from the noble marquis) the responsibility that devolved on them as members of the was received from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, recom- Government, but by the impossibility they found of being mending that such a commission sho u ld be issued. (Hear.) able to reconcile it to their sense of duty and to their con- If we have any thing to reproach ourselves with, it is, sciences to be a party to that measure which now had perhaps, with not having acted sooner on the noble been adopted by the Government, and which had this marqu , s's recommendation. I have now announced the evening been made the subject of discussion. (Hear, hear.) principles ore which the Government is prepared to acts He was well aware that, in these times, it was impossible and I believe that in acting upoh them w h ll es a not be pur- for an Administration to attempt to carry on public affairs suing a course that will endenger the general interest of unless it adverted to the spirit of the age. However strange society or of religion. I may be mistaken—l may be it might appear to some of his former friends, he was a misguided—l may be wrong; b u t these are the principles zealous and honest advocate for the great measure of Par , upon which lam prepared to act, conscientiously believing liamentary reform. He thought it calculated to put an that by such a course alone can the affairs of Ireland be end to a system under which the law was constantly vio brought to a satisfactory result. The noble earl says, that lated ; and this he held to be an evil of such a nature that, we Whigs are acting upon principles which are not the unless it•was mitigated, it would destroy the respect that principles of Whigs, as described by Mr. Burke;_ and he the people ought to bear to war ds th o se who we re their also alluded to an early period of m y lif e , and said that I representatives in Parliament. ( Hear, hear.) On this begat , my career by assisting in the dissemination of ja- principle, then, he supported parliamentary reform ; ,, ,_, e. cobinical principles, and am now about to conclude it by he never was disposed tit adopt any measure to stox ft . 7%• effecting the downfall o f th e chu rc h ; I hope the noble clamour, or to avoid the pressure from witho.tiet.c,(..!-Ze,l.er 'earl's prophecy may prove as false as his facts, -In early He yielded solely, because he thought thavtietwhe . o f the spirit life I certainly took up with all the fervour' of youth the just. But though he entertained those with which the government must administer the affairs of England and Ireland, it was impossible for him not to feet that there might arise questions relating to the great in stitution of the country on which it would unquestionably not be safe to yield. (Cheering.) His noble friend said. that it was not safe to rest. He knew that it was in diffi cult times often very cl,fficult to rest. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") But if they were to act on that prin ciple they would rest on nothing--they would still go on to rest nowhere. (Cheering.) If this, then, were the consequence, was he not justified in saying that he would take on himself to try if they could not rest here? If they did not here, he knew not where the resting place would tion to appoint a commission arose out of pectin be. As his noble friend had correctly stated, the circum stances,proposi- and was taken up suddenly. The question was deeply considered, and certainly great objections were felt by himself, as well as by his colleagues, to the adoption s A ib t l of that commission. He had no particular desire 0 avail himself of the compliment that he and his colleagues had been paid in adverting to their having been de yaltiheevyenhtasd, been he certainlyr scribed as the " drags" of the government of wh ich they were members ; but he might remark, that pos d"iclirfageels, to the commission, that if he assented to it, the question a appropriation of the revenues of the church to secular " w t th (Loud regardslaugho t e t r b • ) 3 purposes was settled (Cheers), and when he asked himself if he could assent to such a proposition, his answer wade no. He th oug ht th a t th e princ i p l e o f i ni ury into th state of the population of parishes, to ascertiLn the number of resident protestants therein as compared with the ifou r ber of catholi cs , if it meant anyt hi ng, must mea n 5° ; me i thing that had a di rec t ten d ency to e ff ect an a lt e ration ( d, ' the principle on whi c h th e c h urc h esta bli s h men t eli i e t „ e o t. ( Hear, hear.) His n o bl e f r i en d , state d t h at lie did- contemplate the poss.bility of any great change as the re" .. suit of appointing the commission ; but it was b e cause (the Earl of itipon) behaved that the effect of the (Or mission must be to aUer the footin on which the es"' bbushed chur c h stood, that he could g not concur in that pre; liminary step. The universality of the established chu! . ' was its very essence. Its great principle was its diffusi°f. throughout the country .;',and if they set up the prinocipl,". that any portion of the funds that were nee , scary maintenance was to be withdrawn fro m it, or that the tree",. venues of the church in a particular parish w ere to . b _ iar gulated by the number of the protestant popolation in tl -hich abatt. parish, then they destroyed the principle on w had the established church existed. His noble friend_ fl, _. quoted from the peech of a distinguished member of the house (Sir R. Peel), who had said that he admitted a s ''' . ccssity might arise for appropriating the revenues toof the church, but he would apply them esPecialblYdy differ purposes of the church. He never heard anY 0,._ mid from that opinion. It was most safe, desirame, y:. e legitimate, being quite consistent with every princiotlo that could be sanctioned by any man who desired ' , maintain the established c hu rc h ; b u t the mom en they departed from that to substitute for it the num' ber that the Protestant population of a parish bore to a gi ven proportion of those who did not belon g to the church, s° far from doing that which was calculated to tranquilliz e the people, for whose benefit it was said that these changes were to be made, they gave to both parties an invitation to be divided. ( Hear, hear.) He could suppose it possible that under such circumstances some' Protestant landlord , might, with a view to insure means for the maintenance of the church in their neighbourhoods, add the required nuov ber to their Protestant tenantry. He did not sa y that they would be justified in so doing ; but if the principle to which he had been objecting were adopted, it would op i f rate as an invitation to such practices. (Hear.) Then, o the Protestants might so act, what might not be the c of the party opposed to them ? They knew what dishf agitation was (Hear, hear), and they knew the system of intimidation that might be resorted to, for the purpose 0 _ driving people out from one part of the country Y s a , of ther. They knew full well the use that had beenfloo' the de the pike, the pistol, and the torch, and the rest 0 •ii Ireland , vilish machinery which the demons of agitation' eakingof had not scrupled to employ. He was not now sp 0 ,, _,, et _, imaginary things—of what only might be, but 1110 what" imaginary held been done. Wherein, then, was the , f o e ui d be found, that the effect of the proposed chang' b e g,' - - be to tranquillize the Irish people ? f Ile a ar, staple . hear.) He believed that the idea of his bing found to exist would turn out to he chimerical; that the noble friend, at all events, thought itpossible tnat he did not amount would be very small, and he statedhurch. fie would contemplate applying it to the Catholic c not be so ask, how were they to be satisfied that it would the established applied ? (Hear, hear. ) To whom was Catholics ? aod courch a grievance but to the Roman osed? WB9 would they be satisfied with what was part eouri trY the there an apostle of agitation in any part of ii, _,, inir 1 w h o would not discover ten thousand reasons for cer a'', the 1 fresh demands? ( Hear, hear. ) If it were neces.):l of m , ans might be found of advancing education, ore e!,. supporting the Catholic clergy themselves, without toad. ing for such purposes the means of the established churc Grants for education had been already made ; a nd VJ% conclude that Parliament would not be ready to inere as° those grants, if what had been advanced proved to be in-- sufficient? He now came to ano her view of the subject,' lie;had a very strong objection to the principle of doieS" anything that would have so direct an effect against 0 essential principle of the established church. The objec tion to which he was now alluding was founded on the 6 compact of the union. ( Hear.) That compact was of particular kind, and was made under peculiar circuit:l. stances. The Protestant Parliament in Ireland Ns•s_ party to it ; and he should like to know wh-ther, if that hdire t t Protestant Parliament of Ireland had been told t reat a tan g expiration of a given number of years, at no ineiples that of time, the Parliament would sanction Prsition of less. would place the church of Ireland in . a IT Would they they have passed that union. security, would they would have not have been mad to do so, knowing as to inevi- Id thereby doom themselves . knovvn, that they woul d the discussions on the subject table destruction ? In all in disions on of the Roman Catholic question Grat all t the an, Mr.cuss Plunket, all the bills introduced by the noble du ke on the and others, down even to that of of the etablished other sine of the house, the maintenan ce .ri ncipa s I basis, on a church inviolate was laid down act of ustice and con which was to be granted the great act o r j P otestants, whose cession. And would they say to the force they whose ts fears they endeavoured thus to allay, and Protestan laboured thus to disarm—would they tell thos e e _ .1 . 0 . f the advantag s F tio now, that they were to be deprived o t the securi . cured to them to soothe their fears and tha,, s , otitingt as it they demanded were to be broken down? ''' la necessity olf' appeared to him, but the most Tax t)- am" h t at necessity wer. e . justify the course proposed; and unless t n , id. n e felt proved to exist, he must withhold his c° indifference to that it was those whom h do e had the mi a masfortter tune tof pero oPP°'fect . e on this ques, it would be $ tion, whether he consented to it or not ; hi s or to the matter of indifference, whether to their lords P e _ litiou e to public at large ; but having felt it his duty lie had a nder act, as long as in honour and conscience .11 . : ad not the the guidance of his noble friend—whom n' hot from wh 4: l, pleasure to rank among his earlier friends, , kindness an undoubtedly he had received many acts of , ; 1 ai, without ; confidence, and of whom he could not sp e of duty an d feeling of reverence—nothing but a feeling , He had e conscience had at last induced him to withdrass • ted it, h done his duty ; and, though he deeply regret could not repent of it. ( Cheers.) .ole v iew °f The Earl of ABERDEEN rose with the 5 isle ea r l (Greys),complining of a isrepresenation b the nights ag o WI of the sentiments expressed a y few nig h The a right honourable friend of his in the other hoi e d e el i f ered noble lord had deprecated the quoting of' speeehesed w ith 8 in the other house, yet had come down preP a k r o the ll' manuscript quotation from one. He would t a 1, whiell berty of tendering a little advice to the noble ear contelt• was, when he next quoted a speech to look to t glair, The statement of the noble earl, as regar d e d the a g lair , tha t not only was inaccurate, but he neglected to e P .4, to A were in rei J I t o the observations of his right hon. friend _ c . .., `v he made by the Chancellor of the D i TC! , , (I t ti o e ' app ro-, said he thought that•the legislature had u a : e l; g n : pu , pos s el priate the surplus revenues of the , fight I rg lion.. friell' , moral and religious ixistruction , were vague andinde , - "that there explain what he meant' The Sir R. Peel) replied, noble lord ex' finite terms. Let the t was necessary to nave an h . The time had come when it Did the noble lord mi.4o' d tha '' ' planation on the subje a c r ,d he (Sir R. Peel) aske , f religious instructio n — id uneq uivocall y —to claim to him question distinctly alos se ssions of the .Protestant Chur of the right out of t he p fake ' grants for the disserninal b,, in Ireland to foa e v. Roman Catholic Church? 4 30rp 5 the tenets of thereligious' Roman instruction he (Lordi i ,7„ the moral and religious ' instruction bag. —peel) meant moral andilof, (Si' .• o of the Church England, he k ono sitao t doctrines did not know that he should object to such tension ' t of fact, it would be merely theseblishni ent. as, in pow . connection with the vious religious instruction in . 3o f re 6 .._ . His anxious wish was to extend the blessing...,__, cha rco: instruction in conformity with the doctrines of ,"` right °l i st o but if the noble lord intended to claim th T e r j an d, .e rat provide the Roman Catholic religion " in foods of th o uld at provide for its maintenance out of the e - peel) `bona such testant established church, he ( Sir ll' b ec t to a,seu oted by once state, that he never could be indl, e s peech cl s u hie - i 1 the a proposition." Even the passage of the aoted the noble lord did not authorise t" eble lord. theenmeqao to noble lord had put upon it. 'The I t H e did n°t ,,,,t, to an y the passage at length, as follows :--- „ l a cos- - it . s h e would assert that under no circumstances he church,mittee change in the actual state of 1 rr:lleyethat w heri.a Om li , to must be in the recollection °-. - 11 said +hat he was re clog' was moved for, two xearsoraguio 'easure which had for itg,,,ist consider any Pr°P"'siati°,nahuses or defects that-might e ras ject the removal of " 'He then stated that the tiro, e . , e et in the establislim 'Xu c st review the state of the establiso,jto w hen theYl.s lie for one moment, never iiiteou'iary Come 1 I g o t el lri in Irelam • : , position, that any propoiti nof the pe . . assent to the p ebi e of be devoted h , ns.of the establishment must toot_er. ~„a r but whether there might not:be a different distribut;,ette the funtii: of the establishment, with the view to the ' 0 a : s upplying . .the spiritual wants of the people. 11 _,,, e e ' e ssee tg ' member of the church, was rea dy t o cons ider; an) ' 4 0 0 , , u r : calculated to prorpote.a more: lleneficial, or auvv ne °- , distribution of the funds of the church ; but "