The Sun. — London, England, 1861-03-15 00:00:00

PIPE RIA L PA RLIAMEN T. HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY,) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at Cve o'clock. CHURCH RATES. Petitions were presented against the abolition of church rates by the Earl of Malmesbury, the Earl of Hardwicke, the Bishop of Winchester, the Bishop of St. David's, Lord I..,yttelton, Earl Stanhope, and several ether peers. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The West of Fife Mineral Railway and Charleston Rail. 4y and Harbour Companies Bill was read a second time. MARRIAGE LAWS IN IRELAND. Lord CHELMSFORD presented a petition complaining ES the evils arising from the existing state of the law of "marriage in Ireland, It prayed that an inquiry into these saws might be instituted, and that the Roman Catholic clergy might be entitled to those privileges in celebrating marriages, and subjected to the same restrictions as other clergymen. THE FINE ARTS COMMITTEE. The Earl of SI-LBURNE begged to ask the noble earl below him (Earl Granville) when it was likely the room now occupied by the Fine Arts Committee, which was origi nally intended for the Standing Orders Committee, would tr occupied as it was originally intended ? Earl GRANVILLE said he could not give the noble earl an answer to his question at the present .moment, as there was some difficulty connected with the subject. Lord REDESDALE > aid he had for years urged the same subject on the attention of the noble earl. The room in which the standing orders business was transacted was quite inadequate for the performance of the public business. If the Standing Orders Committee-room could not be en tirely given up, he thought it ought to be vacated dur ing the sitting of Parliament. The subject then dropped. SUBDIVISION OF DIOCESES BILL. Lord LYTTELTON moved the second reading of this bill. The noble lord said he had not brought for ward this bill on his sole responsibility, but last session the bill was brought to him by several very eminent personages, and concurring in the objects of the measure, he had undertaken the charge of it. He did not seek to make extensive alterations in the church, but his' object was to effect improvements where they were most u7gently required. He wished to assimilate the system of the English Church at home with respect to the constitution of dioceses to what it already was in the Colonial Church, or to assimilate that system as regarded the erection of dioceses to what it was with regard to the subdivision of parishes and the erection of new churches. The clergy year after year had petitioned the Crown for an extension cf the episcopacy, and although there had been such extension in the colonial episcopate, yet at home, where it was as much required, none had taken place. He did not believe it was owing to the want of funds that such had not been done, but thought it was altogether owing to the want of any machinery for the purpose. Earl GRANVILLE said that the bill was so imperfect that it could not be allowed to pass without great alteration. The Earl of DERBY agreed with Earl Granville that the bill required considerable modification before it could be permitted to pass. Admitting that an increase in the Episcopacy was necessary, he did not feel inclined to trust too much power in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commis sioners. The Bishop of OXFORD, approving the principle of the bill, disapproved of its details, and recommended its withdrawal. The Duke of MARLBOROUGH said that the question would be practically shelved if the house refu.sed to read the bill a second time. The Bishop of LONDON said that the object of the bill was to vest, in other bodies, ecel , siastical powers not exer cised by Parliament. Such a bill ought to be very carefully considered. After some remarks from Lord REDESDALB and the Archbishop of CANTERBURY, Lord LY f TELTON replied, and upon a division the bill was read a second time by 27 to 23. The Trades' Marks Bill anal the Inclosure Bill were re spectively read a third time and passed. The lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER tOOk the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Blackpool and Lytham Railway Bill was read a thlid time and passed. On +he motion of Mr. C. FORSTER, the standing order No. 20:)%vas suspended in the case of the Manchester and Milford Ri.lway (Aberystwith branch) bill, and, the bill will be read a second time on Friday. PETITIONS, Several petitions were presented against the abolition of church rates, against the Poor Law Removal Act, against the Parochial Assessment Bill, in favour of a Reform Bill, CIVIL SERVICE EXAMINATIONS. Mr. E. COCHRANE gave notice that to-morrow evening he :should move for copies of all examination papers signed by the Civil Service Commissioners. IMPRISONMENT FOR RELIGIOUS OPINIONS IN SPAIN. Sir R. PEEL vile notice that on the motion for ad journment to-morrow evening he would ask her ]Majesty's Government if any correspondence had talrpu place on the s ubject of the imprisonment of persons hi Spain for religious opinions ; if so, what was the tenor, and that he would draw the attention of the house to the matter. "SALE OF GAS. Mr. JACKSON asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it was the intention of the Go vernment to introduce, at an early date, a bill to remedy the defects of existing legislation in regard to the measures used in the sale of gas ? Mr. CLIVE said That the act in question had not come into operation, and' therefore it could not be ascertained what defects existed in it. When these defects were known then a bill might be introduced to remedy them. THE CABLE BEWEEN MALTA AND GIBRALTAR. In reply to Mr..CoNii , teatAar, Mr. M. GIBSON said the persons responsible for the safe keeping of the table were the contractors, whose inte rest it was to see that it was attended to. The Government had taken the necessary steps to ascertain that it was kept safely, and when the time came for the appointment of the officer in question, they would take care that an efficient person was selected. NEW CENSUS TABLES. In reply to Mr. KNTGHTLEY, Sir G. C. LEWIS said that some time must elatse be fore the contents of these tables could be properly digested, and he would take care as far as possible that the popula tion of counties proper should be correctly described. FINSBURY-PARK. Sir N. PETO asked what steps had been taken in the purchase of land or otherwise for the purpose of forming the Finsbury-park, pursuant to the Act 20 and 21 Vic., c. 159; and if no steps had been taken, whether they would be taken, so as to carry out the provisions of the act, viz., five years from its passing in 1857 ; or whether it was in tended to apply for powers to extend the time of carrying out the same ? Mr. COW PER said that up to the present time no steps had been taken in reference to this subject. THE CUINA. WAR AND THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT. On the motbia for going into committee of supply on army estimates, Gen. PEEL asked, the Chancellor of the Exchequer what portion of the sum of £850,000, granted by Parliament to cover the entire expenditure on account of the China war during the financial year 1859-60, had been appropriated to, or is reserved for, the liquidation of the claims of the Indian Government, on account of advances made or expenses incurred in. India. The honour able and gallant member complained that there was no *dent check on the expenditure that might take place in regard to money advanced for the purposes of India, and, indeed, he did not see how it could be otherwise, so long as Government retained the power of applying a 'vote to purposes other than that for which it was granted. He, coral lained also generally of the unsatisfactory state of ac counts in respect to financial operations with reference to' India. He considered that these army estimates were most important, because they represented the peace establishment of the country, as we were at peaco with the world, and only very trifling additions could possibly be required to be made to our military,force this year. He then proceeded to criticiee items in the army estimates, which he con tended Hero founded on a false principle. Mr. BAirtING appealed to the hon. and gallant member to postpone his remarks until he (Mr. Baring) had an opportunity of nicking his statement. He would be able to Chow that some of the assertions of the hon. and gallant ra eTber were not corract, r elletalPEEL said that remark could not apply to the observatioatnsshre was about to make: (A laugh.) He denied b that the act of the votes published sho we d c l ear ly t h e real stat e of the erodit was ease as regarded fhe army estimates, for y Wasteteynaforr a . reduction in the amount which in it pcnditure. ne , oo t o ansfer to another head of military ex rtiecci„t for the refi t : ll ' 4 ' 4 d further that the votes were in the year. re menta of the army service during The •:::HANCELLOR of the E was obliged to eX censur e lie the course sa take h n singularly house as the hon. by so justly respected a m em b er of and . gallant gentleman, It was inappropriate at the present time to review in azi_c t rrii r o l l y i this subject be fore the statement was unwell() thought that into whose have endeavoured the hon. b an ds it was • intrusted. to Bud gallant membe should rathe r h the wa as:4st Clan to throw difficulties i n n h i i s s tr a h t ° i o n n ., young friend who had just undertaken(H the Y ad o m f i of the military expenditure. ear, h ear.) Th e hon. gallant member had not und erstood the nature of the a r n e d - turns• that had been recently made to the hous e , or he Would have perceived that the sum of L 850,000 Was ch arged for the expenses of the. China war. The principal obje c t, of that vote' was an excess• to meet the military expense s ecessit4t, lel at home and abroad by that war. With re 7 irpeet to th p financial arrangements betweeti this country and India, it was not to be expected that they could each year show exactly their position, because the financial years of this country and India terminated at different periods. After a few words from Mr. DISR \ ELT, The subject dropped. STOVES IN GARRISONS. Col. STUART called the attention of the house to the new stoves or stove grates placed in the barracks in London, Portsmouth, Chatham, and other stations ; and asked the Under Secretary of State for War, the name of the inventor of these stoves, the name of the cone tractor, the cost of the stoves themselves, and the expense of fitting them at the different stations; also, whether any officer in command of a district, gar rison, or regiment, or any barrack -master in charge of a station, had reported favourably of the experiment ; and, whether the economy of fuel had been sufficient to justfy the expense incurred in the alteration ? Mr. BARING s lid the inventor of the stove was Capt. Galion, whose name was well known to the house for the exertions he had made to promote the comfort of the soldier. The contractors were the Messrs. Kinnaird ; but it was right to say that they had derived no pecuniary benefit from it whatever. The expense for putting up the new stoves had been considerable, but their cost was not large, being £3 10s. for the medium and £3 15s. for the large size. Col. GILPIN said it was the opinion of every officer at Portsmouth that the stove was an utter failure. On one occagion he found that a thermometer close to the aperture where the warm air was supposed to come in stood at zero. (Laughter.) Another thermometer at the other end of the room showed a higher temperature. THE HUNGARIAN NOTES. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE had a question to ask which was strictly in. order, for it was an old constitutional maxim that supplies ought not to be granted until grievances had been redressed. He wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what instructions were given is Sir Richard Mayne in reference to the alleged manufacture of notes in this country in the name - of Hungary, and what eourse Sir Richard Mayne took upon those. instructions ; and by what authority Sir Richard Mayne required the Messrs. Day to suspend the manufacture of the notes ; and by whom the expenses of the proteedings taken were to be defrayed. It appeared that early in February an applica tion was made at the Foreign-office to the noble lord the member for the City, by the representative of the Austrian Government in this country, to put a stop to the manufac ture of these notes, which was going on at Messrs. Day's, the lithographers. The Foreign-office— Sir G. C. LEWIS—No, the Home Department. Mr. DUNCOMBE—WeII, the Home Department took the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, and they said that the : manufacture of these notes was illegal. If that opinion really was given, the noble lord, he thought, should have laid the opinion on the table, and not by his statement of the fact have prejudged 'a case whilst proceedings were still pending. The further state of the case he (Mr. Dun combe) believed to be this. In February last, Sir R.Mayne, in obedience to an order from the Home Government, paid a visit to Messrs. Day, and required and desired them to sus pend the manufacture of the notes. Now, Messrs. Day were pursuing their trade lawfully, as he fully believed it would turn out. The notes had been ordered by M. Kossuth for his own purposes, and what they were the house did not know. He (Mr. Duncombe) believed, however, that a larger num ber of the notes wore struck off after the visit of Sir Richard Mayne. Then, he believed, a detective was put in —(hear)--- in the disguise of a workman. At any rate a spy system had been introduced, and at the instructions of Sir R. Mayne. The noble lord might have received instructions from Aus tria to stay the issue of 'these notes, but with all his Austrian leaning he (Mr. Duncombe) should scarcely have suspected the noble lord of having recourse to measures of this kind. Another question was, by whom the expenses were to be borne. A note had been Obtained from Messrs. Day's office by corruption and bribery. He wished to know whether her Majesty's Government had paid for this, or whether Austria had paid for it, for in the latter event our police were in the pay of the Austrian Government. (Hear.) Sums for secret service money were voted in the estimates; possibly they were devoted to this ptu•pose among others. He thought the circumstances of the case required a full explanation. • Sir G. C. LEWIS—Sir, I think there is no doubt that my hon. friend, if he believed that any grievance existed in this matter, exercised a constitutional privilege in bringing the subject under the consideration of the house on the motion for going into Committee of Supply; but - I trust, after the simple explanation which I have it in my power to give, that the house will be satisfied that no grievance exists. My attention was called by Sir R. Mayne to the existence of certain notes printed in the Hungarian language about the sth of February, and I may say that Sir R. Mayne, myselc, and every other person in the Home-office were equally ignorant of the Hungarian language. (Laughter.) It was, however, a small printed note, and signed by " Kossuth Louis." It appeared that it was printed by Mr. Day, the lithographer, and at my suggestion Sir R. Mayne put him self into communication with Mr. Day; and addressed to hini the following letter, dated Feb. 11: " Sir Richard Mayne requests Mr. Day will be so good as to call here to-morrow at 12 o'clock, or as soon after as may be convenient. " Metropolitan Police-office, Feb. 11." In consequence of that letter an interview took place be tween Mr. Day and OIL IL. m. / ..,e, but I do not understand that Sir R. Mayne made any demand on Mr. Day of the nature my hon. friend states. On the 13th February Sir R. Mayne addressed a second letter to Mr. Day, which I sp. prebend eontains the substance of the intimation that my hen. friend alluded to. This is the whole that passed be tween Sir R. Mayne and Mr. Day : " Sir,—l request you will detain for the present all the Hungarian notes on your premises, as you told me yesterday you would do if-a notice to that effect were given to you. " I hope to see you to-morrow with reference to the in , qairy on'which • yen are to give the information.—l am, your obedient servant,- " Feb. 13." "RICHARD MAYNE. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—Did you give Sir R. Mayne no instructions ? Sir G. C. LEWIS—! wish to say that Sir R. Mayne was acting entirely under my instructions. (Hear, :hear.) Well, no further interview took place between Mr. Day and Sir RI Mayne, and nothing further passed in writing. That is the whole extent Of the transaction between Sir R. Mayne and Mr. bay. With regard to :any detective, lam not , aware of any person havin g been employed by Sir R. Mayne in the manner my hon. friend describes... No expense has been incurred by the Government,-and they are no parties to:the proceedings now pending Word the Court of Chan cery. Mr. DUNCOMBE—How did•tihey get the note ? 'Sir-G. C.- LEWIS—Oh! the note. (Laughter, amidst which tile right hon. baronet sat down.) " Mr. BRIGHT-1 think my hon. friend gave the right hon. gentleman an opportunity to make a rather fuller statement than he has done, and I am sorry he has not availed himself of it. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gen tleman mentioned—and it was the first fact he stated— that Sir R. Mayne called his attention to the matter of 1 these notes. I should like very much to know who first called Sir R. Mayne's attention to them. (Hear, hear.) Was it the noble lord at the head of the Foreign-office or the right hon. gentleman himself to whom the noble lord deputed the subject? Because it makes some differ ence in the case whether Sir Richard Mayne did this of his own mere motion or from the orders of a superior depart ment. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman did not tell us exactly how the matter stood in this respect. It ap pears that Sir R. Mayne had become possessed of one of these notes. The right hon. gentleman has not informed us how he became possessed of it. It is not to be supposed, I presume, that the ex-Governor of Hungary sent him a copy—(laughter)—nor is it asserted that Mr. Day sent him one. Somebody must have been in Mr. Day's works and abstracted a note to furnish it to Sir R. Mayne. (Hear.) It is stated further that a police officer obtained employ ment with Mr. Day as a labourer at the press, and that he took one of•the'notes belonging. to his employer—an act of larceny, I imagine, though I hardly know what_the law yers would call it. (A laugh.) Certainly it would not be a very honest act. : IE-he did not do th4t, it is said that he must have used some paper of his own, making an impres sion of :the note upon it, and furnishing it to Sir R. Mayne. If that be true, and the house will, I am sure, think it a little impbrtant to know whether it is or not, we arrive at this position—that in a matter which does not in the least concern the security of the Crown- or Government of Eng land, but which doesinaome dere t e h , e i h t ea m d a o y f be,tlae affect the interest of a foreign Government, metropo litan police undertakes to introduce into the workshop of a tradesman in this city one of his detectives in the garb of an honest, frank labourer at aprinting-press, in order that ho may there discover what the tradesman is doing, and . take from his premises .a note which may be used in a court of justice not only against the ex-Governor of Hungary, whose name is attached to it, but against Mr. Day himself, (Hear.) That is contrary to all the opinions prevailing in the country with respect to the powers of the police. (Hear, hear.) Whatever use may be made of such a pr ocee di ng , for the purposes of our own Government—and I do not think it would be very desirable eves in that case—(hear, hear) —there can -be no-question that it would be very wrong for the Home Secretary to sanction such a proceeding on the part of the police, for the purposes of the Austrian or any other foreign Government. (H e ar.) Of course as regards to w ' the main question, that will be 'settled by th e court larch it has been referred. Ido not mean to go into it, because what that court decides we can be well content to, agree to, but I think the right hon. gentleman owes it to the h ouse to be a little more, explicit. •He ought -to tell- us whether the Home-office, acting fur the • Foreign-office, and Sir R. Mayne acting for the Home-office, or for the Austrian Go vernment, is to be permitted to . .introduce into the shop of a London tradesman a person in the garb of an honest la bourer, who may give evidence whereon a foreign Govern ment can pursue an exile who has taken .np his residers-:e among us: (Oh, and het,r.) I' shall cay no more about that, but the right hon. gentleman ought to make an expli cit statement; because, sir, if atrY Dart of this Itanaqtien is left unexplained it, wilLercato a very sacra* inispicien against the Goveininent throughout the entire country. (Hear.) Ur.HENLEY—LBefore the right hon. gentlemananswers tbo question s put to him by the him-member for Birming ha. a l hlitalaPit.he will allow me to make another inquiry. /AS 1 umewstatail the aetion which he dpscribea, to hay i e taken place, an i n t erv i ew passes and letters pass between Sir 4, Mayne and the tradesman employed to manufacture titose notes. The right hon. gentleman left it in this way, with out giving any forther explanation. I shall not touch on intermediate situations; but he says that Sir R. Mayne told this tradesman not to let any of this property go from his premises, and the right hon. gentleman adds that there he left it. We have a right to know whether the police in this country gives notice to a tradesman not to allow pro perty which he may be manufacturing in the course of busi ness to-leave his premises without -any criminal charge be ing alleged against him. We ought to know whether this tradesman is under notice still. The right hon. gentleman shakes his head, and therefore I presume that he is not; but the right hon. gentleman ought to state distinctly what the fact is. In this case it seems that the question of the legality or otherwise of the act itself is to be left to a civil court, and therefore the case is not the same as one in which the transaction is a criminal one. (Hear, hear.) I would ask the right hon. gentleman whether Six Richard Mayne has withdrawn his notice P (Hear, hear.) Sir G. C. LEWlS—Perhaps the house will grant me permission to reply to the questions that have been put to me by the hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) and the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down. I can state in the most confident manner my belief—l think I may Fay my knowledge, but certainly my belief—that no detective was used by the police in this matter, and that no improper agent such as the hon. member for Birmingham describes was induced by corruption to give information. (Hear, hear.) I know nothing whatever of any such means having been used. The reason I interfered in the first in stance was this—the house must be aware that it is contrary to the law of the country to counterfeit the money of any foreign government. (Hear, hear.) Not being, as I said before, master of the Hungarian language, I could not tell the exact nature of this note without communication with Mr. Day. Sir Richard Mayne accordingly communicated with Mr. Day on the subject. Afterwards, when we got a translation of this note, and saw that it did not purport to be a counterfeit of any Austrian money, but that the fabri cation was one of money to be used by a new Government to be constituted, we saw that if the matter was a crime at all it was one of a different character. We took the opinion of the law officers of the Crown. That opinion was, of course, confidential, and it is not for me to state it; but, in conse quence of the opinion of the law officers, the Government decided not to institute any proceedings against Mr. Day ; and he was informed—certainly when he came to me he must have understood—that this notice was only for the moment, and until further information had been obtained ; and he could not for 24 hours have remained under the im pression that the police would lay any embargo on his pro perty. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT—The right hon. gentleman has not ex plained how he came by the note. Sir G. C, LEWIS—The notes were laid before me by Sir Richard Mayne. (" Oh !" and " Hear.") PROSECUTIONS AT ARMAGH. Sir H. CAIRNS drew attention to the course taken on behalf of the Crown in the recent prosecutions at Armagh, in having managed in a protestant county, on a trial fbr riot, to obtain a Roman Catholic jury, and in not calling certain witnesses. Mr. CARDWELL said that all that was done was the securing the exclusion from the jury of persons likely to be prejudiced. The witnesses were there, and might have been called for the purposes of cross-examination. SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. T. G. BARING, in rising to Move the army esti mates, asked permission to refer in the first instance to the observations of the hon. and gallant member for Hunting don, reserving, however, his answer to a portion of those observations which referred to 1860-61, until it was seen whether a supplementary estimate would be necessary for the present year.. This much, however, he could assure the committee, that no part of the vote of credit should be applied to supplement the ordinary army service of that year. The number of men now demanded was 146,044, showing nominally ax increase of 775 men, and it was to be under stood, that last year the embodied militia were not included. The hon. and gallant member had mentioned this fact as if it were not of an ordinary character, but the fact was that the exclusion of the militia was the ordinary practice. He (Mr. Baring) should speak with great diffidence in answer to the hon. member for Huntingdon if he had him self prepared the estimates, but as the house knew the estimates had been prepared by the noble lord the Minister for War, the hon. and gallant member for Huntingdon was not justified in saying that the nominal increase was an actual decrease of 9,000 men.. The hon. member had omitted to consider the. regiments borne on the British establishment which had not returned from China; show. ing, in reality, that the decrease was not 9,000 but 5,000 men. In order, however, to make itclear to the committee, it would be most convenient to compare the average of the two years ; he including in the statement the disembodied militia. Commencing with the whole British army in 1860• 61, the average numbers, according to the Adjutant-Gene ral's return, including the staff, was 228,020 regular forces ; the average militia embodied during the year being 9,569; total, 237,589. Against this the average numbers estimated for 1861-62 were 212,773, showing a decrease of no less than 24,816 men. In order to advance a step further, he took the men of 1860-61,wh0 were paid for by the Indian Government. In the first year,there were in India 72,712 ; depots, 15,058 ; total, 87,707. This year there were in India 62,041; depots 6,688; total, 68,729; showing a decrease of 19,041. Of men paid from the imperial revenue, the average in 1860-61 was 142,819, and this year provision was made for 144,044 ; he used these numbers instead of the first total, because when the regiments which were expected came home from India, it would make a difference of 2,000 men, so that the whole decre ma would be 5,775 instead of 9,000, as the hon. and gallant member had stated. He would now go one step further and see what troops were in the colonies and in the Unite I Kingdom. In 1860-61 there were in the colonies and China 55,883 ; in 1861-62 51,717, showing a decrease of 4,166, and there remained a total of 93,936 borne on the books; including the embodied militia for 1860-61, whereas the'total this year, with no militia, was 92,227—the real de crease on the United Kingdom of 609. It was quite impos sible, in fact, to compare an estimate including militia with one which excluded militia, and where provision was made for some regiments which were yet to return from India. The numbers in the United Kingdom were, as he had said, 92,327, to which adding the Indian depots —more than 6,000 —would leave 90,000, the average for the United Kingdom for 1861-62, and as the regiments from India arrived we should be still stronger at the end of the year. In order to make the matter more clear, he would give the commit ee the number of battalions for two years. On the Ist April, 1860, there were 40 in England, 57 in India, 33 in the colo nies, and 9in China. On the Ist April, 1861, the numbers would be respectively 49, 51, 31, and 5, being an increase of 9 battalions at h-me, and there would be an increase when the New Zealand affair was settled. In comparing the two years there was a decrease in 1861-62, because last year the Indian depots were larger; but something must be allowed for the substitution of regular troops for militia. He did not say this in any disparagement of the militia, whose high discipline he most freely acknowledged, but it was impossible that militia could ever be perfectly equal to the troops of the line. He thought the committee would see that they would have this year an additional strength of battalions of the line, and a much larger militia reserve, which latter was so perfectly trained that it formed a nucleus which could at any time be raised to its full strength. The numbers disembodied were 5,500 artillery, and 12,800 infantry; the force being taken altogether what the Government teemed necessary for the purposes of the United Kingdom, and not too great for the position held by this country before the world. The gallant officer said they had not taken sufficient money to pay their men, but if he would look to the•return of effectives, for which he himself had moved, he would see that the average cost of each man for 1859-60 was £54, and if he worked the sum he would see that exactly that average was provided for the present year. Again, the gallant officer anticipated that there would be an excess on the estimate for China, but there was a very small portion. for which provision had not 'been made, consisting merely of ono battery of artillery, and one squadron of cavalry. Having thus explained our position as to numbers he should proceed to explain the mode in which the reduc. tions had taken place.. Five battalions had come home from India, and one regiment of cavalry, and there would also be a reduction in the strength of the depots. In the cavalry, although two, troops would be reduced in each regiment, no officer would be placed on half-pay bid would be gradually absorbed, and commissions bought out of the reserve fund. This made the reduction 19,000 for India. At the same time no . rnan would be discharged, as it was anticipated that in consequence of the termination of the ten . years' service the men would .reduce themselves. His Royal High- ness the Commander•in-Chief had carefully gone into the accounts, and had come to the conclusion that by the Ist of April the number of men would square with the esti mate without'any discharging. 'With respect to the colo nies, there was a reduction of five battalions in China, against a. small increase in New Zealand. There had been a slight alteration .of pay in the Malta Fencibles, who had been changed into artillery, with a small increase of pay, which had been exceedingly popular in the corps. (Hear, hear.) At home, the establishment of each cavalry regi ment returning from India was reduced by 25 men and 28 horses ; ani in the aclillery provision had been taken for the formation of new garrison brigades ; but their complete formation would be postponed until the return of the artil lery from India, and in the meantime the vote would be sufficient for four batteries, There was a small increase in . _ _ ti rh ( 111. w o a y s a t l h E a t n g o f i n t e h e e r s s , e c a o n , a d d a a n s o s s h t e a r n d t e . c s u re r a:s e e: n h 8 ; of l S r ; e t;:i ments at home. One of the assistant-surons hal b nnothing to do, but idled away the tim e , an d was not improving in his pro fession. There had been an increw-e of surgeons in the staff, in order to provide for ball-practice and other contin gencies. With regard to the expenses. connected with the number of men, he should follow thA example of the hon. and ga ll an t pfticer, and take together votes 2,3, 9, 10. 4. 3 are for pay and allowances; 4, embodied militia ; 9, Clothing and necessaries. -These votes amounted in 1860.61 to £7079,363, and in 1861-62, to £7,410,316 ; showing a decrease for the corning year of £69,017. This comparison did not Concur with the first issue of the estimates, and kr this reason—there was a vote of clothing last year, £200,000, to the Indian credit, but those credits had now ceased. The decrease would hate been greater Were it not that a greinter stun had been taken for provisions. T4P a r r e t a l son .t .o e f: ghatit wig partly-the increased price, pf food., and partly h eireueleta,ace that the estimate fer the 'year, few rem had t 1 .• THE SUN, _LONDON, - FRIDAY EVENING, _ MARCH 15, 1861. been under the mark. This year a great change had been made in the mode of preparing the estimates. In future they would be drawn up by that branch of the War-office which controlled the expenditure over the whole year ; and the house might therefore look for much greater accu racy than had hitherto been attained. The report of the commission on the subject of recruiting had recently been laid upon the table. It was proposed, in accordance with the view expressed by the commissioners, to make an al teration with regard to re-enlistments. Under the present regulation it was actually as advantageous to men who had served their ten years in India to take their discharge, come home at the public expense, and re-enlist in this country. It was proposed, however, to give great advantages to those who would re-enlist in India. It was also proposed to re duce the bounty to £l, and to give the men in lieu of the money, which they generally spent at a public-house, a larger quantity of necessaries. They would certainly receive another pair of boots, and probably other articles. With re gard to the food of the army, the system of slaughtering beasts at Aldershot and at the Curragh had been much ex tended. The plan of allowing in the mess a quantity of groceries for lid. had been introduced into the camps at home, in the Mediterranean, and the Cape; and he hoped these alterations would lead to what might be called the uniform sixpenny stoppage. (Hear.) As to the clothing, it was proposed to issue instead of a tunic lined with serge, a waistcoat with sleeves, and a tunic with lining; so that the tunic would be suitable for both hot and cold weather. The attention of the authorities had been directed to the simpli fication of the patterns for clothing. Of course it was evi dent that if the cloth manufactured for the army were only of a few qualities, they would get it better and cheaper than if they had a greater variety. The clothing manufactories at Pimlico were quite worthy of the inspection of any hon. gentleman ; and it was remarkable with what rapidity Colonel Hudson was enabled to complete any orders that might be given him. (Hear.) The health of the army had been exceedingly good during the past year. The mortality calculated on by the noble lord at the head of the depart ment (Lord Herbert) had not been exceeded—in fact the mortality for the year had been below the average. The state of the army in China had been especially satisfactory. For the first time a medical officer of rank, Staff-Surgeon Brown, had been sent out for the purpose of making ar rangements for preserving the health of the troops ; and the result had been thatthe mortalityin China had not exceeded that at Aldershott or any other of the stations in this coun try. (Cheers.) There had been instituted a medical school at Chatham which he believed would prove of great value to the army. The different warrants which had been issued within the last few years bad had the effect of drawing into the service a much higher class of students; in fact medical authority had observed that the army was attract.. ing to it the best young men that were to be found in the country. (Hear, hear.) There had been a reduction in some of the staff appointments at home. Two commands which had hitherto been in the hands of lieutenant-generals had been reduced, and would now be entrusted to major generals—namely, the inspector-general of infantry and the commanding officer of the Shorncliffe division. One major general had been altogether reduced, and brigadier-generals had been substituted for five other major-generals. Other reductions had also been made, and the committee would therefore see that no opportunity for introducing econo mical changes was let slip. These reductions, he might say, had received the cordial concurrence of his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief. (Hear, hear.) He (the hon. gentleman) might mention, also, that those officers who had passed through the Staff College, and had gone through the different arms of the service, had been em ployed on different staff appointments. (Hear, hear.) The committee and the country would see that as there were now officers qualified for staff appointments by passing through the college and submitting to a high examination in the scientific branches of the service, any little jealousy which might formerly have existed 'of the number of staff officers would be very much removed ; and that as there were now on the staff some of our most scientific and best officers, it would be necessary to give them some practical opportunity of learning their duties, and of qualifying themselves for active service. Formerly majors appointed to the staff were put upon half-pay, but it was now proposed that they should be " seconded" in their regiments. There was also another alteration which would be satisfactory to a groat branch of the service—he meant the artillery. Colonels of the Royal Artillery holding large commands, such as Aldershott, would be placed by the side of colonels on the staff with increased pay and allowances than they now received. (Hear.) The plan recommended by his Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge last year, in his evidence given before the commission for reorganising the army, was to be carried out, and provision was made for that purpose in the estimates. Every young gentleman before he entered the army would pass a year at college, where he would learn the practical elements of his pro fession. His education would be physical as well as mental, so that when he joined his regiment he would be enabled to enter on his duties at once instead. of having to learn his drill. This plan would very much do away with the neces sity of stationing young officers at depots, which was con sidered so objectionable by so many military authorities. (Loud cheers.) There was an increase in the estimates of £38,300 for yeomanry cavalry, which arose from the deter mination that had been arrived at to call them out this year for drill. All those who were at all conversant with the subject would be aware that unless the corps were called out from time to time it would be impossible to prevent them from falling through. (Cheers.) There was an in crease of £27,000 for the volunteers, that increase arising in the item of pay and allowances to adjutants. He was happy to say that there were no symptoms of the velun keer movement flagging in this country. (Hear, hear.) There had been an increase in the year of 507 corps, and of about 40,000 men. (Cheers.) At the present time there were 217 battalions, of which 130 were adminis trative battalions formed by the union of other battalions for every purpose except finance. The object of these unions was to enable them to enjoy the services of an adjutant. Many of the corps had reached a very high state of effi ciency ; and ylome of them were quite qualified to act by the side of regular troops. Amongst these none were more prominent than a corps which was largely represented in the house, that belonging to the Inns of Courts. (Cheers.) In the course of the year there had been several splendid reviews, which would be fresh in the recollection of hon. members ; and the general offxers present had expressed themselves much satisfied with the efficiency of the corps present. (Cheers.) There was a small increase in the vote for the War-office, amounting to £5,600. That simply arose, with one exception, frost the annual increase of salaries. The composition of the office since its formation had occupied the unceasing atteation of the Government. The intention was to place at the head of each department a gentleman or an officer who was practically acquainted with the business it had to transact, and who would be brought in immediate contact with the Secretary of State, who in turn would be responsible to Parliament. It was proposed to appoint a director of ordnance, for whom a vote would be taken this year. The accountant's department would also be carefully revised, and the Accountant- General would be made responsible for all the accounts. (Hear.) He now ca. - no to the materiel, the charges for which were comprised under vote 6, for manufacturing es tablishments,Note 8 for wages, and vote 11 for warlike stores. These votes for the year 1860-1 amounted to £3,327,322, and for the year 1861. 2 to £3,549,7'23, showing thus an increase of £133,396. The Ente'd rifle had been supplied to all the troops at home and in some of the colonies. An arm called the interchangeable rifle was also being intro duced. This was an Enfield mitsket, all the parts of which were in every case of one pattern; so that after an action, in which a great number of small arms were always broken, new muskets might be made up of the uninjured portions of different weapons. Mr. W. Richards's cavalry car tridge had been well reported of in India ; and preparations were being made for another trial between the Whitworth and the Enfield rifle. With regard to the Armstrong gun, the right hon. gentleman (General Peel) was in error when he supposed that the sum to be expended on this weapon was only 1460,000. In point of fact the appliances of these guns cost almost as much as the gun itself, and the sum really to be expended would be £BOO,OOO. At the be ginning of the present year we had only 169 Armstrong guns issued for service, but by the end of it 776 would have been proved, making a total of 945. He thought that this was not a bad year's work, especially when that year had been to a great extent an experimental one, lie might mention that the Narcissus, in which Sir B. Walker had left for his station, was fully supplied with Armstrong guns, and that provisions had been mule in the estimates of this year for the supply of 1,057 Armstrong gun s of the following calibre-330 100-pounders, 280 40- pounders, 197 25-pounders, 250 12-pounders. The price of the Armstrong guns• had been much decreased, and the manufacture of them at the Government works enabled them to check the price at Elsecar. He would further mark that the contractors had voluntarily come forward and ieduced the prices, and the 40-pounders, which used to cost £350, now cost £235. The other sizes were reduced in proportion. Then asregarded the ammunition, that was likewise much reduced in price, as the experimental part had ended. With reference to the strength of the guns it would be satisfactory to know that the difficulties which had arisen bad been by constant experiments overcome, and he considered that Sir William Armstrong was entitled to great praise for the means which ho had so . successfully adopted. A great deal had been said about the Arm strong guns which were sent to China, and which were inferior to those which had since been made. Those guns were hastily equipped, but the trials of those guns in China were, upon the whole, eminently satisfactory, and there was hardly any point which had been under the con sideration of the officers in China which had not really been met before their reports were received at home. Ho would also observe that the manner in which those guns were worked did the greatest credit to the officers in com- mand, as well as to the men, bo3ause it was quite a new ser- vice to them, and one ;which required time to become accustomed to. (Hear.) He did not like to refer to state ments which appeared in the public press regarding matters of this kind, hu,there had been a statement inserted in the "Mechanic's Magazine" which purported to be extracted from an officer's report, and therefore it deserved some slight notice. It must be evident to all professional men that that periodical had received erronemis information, The Fe port W4B not ftong gilt of of ofljoerki serving in CLiva, The statel:Pht is effect was that thd*nott'ong etinsi under the most favourable circumstances, could not be de pended upon, and were obliged to be withdrawn at the most critical time of the action, and that several casualties oc curred to the men. The article also alleged that the old ser- I vice guns had to be advanced in place of the Armstrong 12-pounders, which were pronounced generally inferior to the French rifled gun for purposes of actual warfare. This statement was said to have emanated from Major Hay, an artillery officer in command of one of these batteries. Now, the only foundation for such an allegation was, that occa sionally part of the lead stripped from the shells when fired. No casualty occurred from this cause, but it has reported that inconveniences might arise in firing over the heads of our troops. There was nut the slightest difficulty, however, in meeting that defect, either by the use of zinc or by fixing the lead to the shell in a kind of mortice. What Major Hay really said was that, " On all occasions when required the guns, their screws, &c., were as clean, and in as good working order, as when in England. . . . Their pre cision of fire, and the actual results obtained by them, can not for a moment be d misted. They were the admiration of all." And, again, "As compared with our present guns the superiority of the Armstrong guns is manifest ;" to which he added that they were "superior to the French guns in accuracy and rapidity of fire." Captain Milward who was in charge of another battery, writing after the disembarcation at Peh--taug,:reported all the guns to be "in excellent preservation and fit for work," and added, "this is the Bth time the battery has been embarked or landed since leaving England, each time in boats, mounted and dis mounted, never once landed at a wharf, and at Odin -bay landed in a surf. During the whole of these operations no serious damage has occurred to guns or carriages." In regard to the use,of guns in actual service, the the same officer wrote : " The battery in action at Singho, on the 11th of August, fired an average of 18 rounds per gun, at 1,200 and 450 yards, besides two shells at 2,100, all with the most excellent effect. The concussion fuzes acted admirably; the practice was entirely against cavalry in open order, and quite pre vented their forming for a charge, which they attempted more than once. The effect of the shells was all that could be desired; the two fired at 2,100 yards dispersing a large body of cavalry instantly." And, again,— " At the capture of the Peiho Forts (Aug. 21) the guns and carriages stood the firing, which was rapid and continu ous, very well indeed. . . On the whole I can safely re port that little alteration for the better can be made in the gun, which has acted in every respect up to my anticipa tions, both in travelling and firing." (Hear, hear.) It was true that on two or three occasions the vent pieces had been blown out. That was a serious de fect, but it did not prevent the gun continuing firing, and this defect hadsince been remedied by Sir W. Armstrong in the most simple manner, so that it was now rendered impos sible for the future. (Hear.) The only other defect of any consequence arose frsm the difficulty of manufacturing pro per fuzes, but this also had been satisfactorily met. (Hear.) In point of strength the Armstrong gun had stood what he believed was a perfectly unique test. A 12-pounder gun was fired 200 times according to the following programme : —lO rounds with service charge of I#lb. of powder, and sin gle service shot of 121 b. ; 10 rounds with same charge and a projectile equal to two service shot, 10 rounds same charge and a projectile equal to three service shot; and so on, gradually increasing up to 100 rounds, the last 10 of which were fired with a projectile equal to 10 service shot, and of such a length as to protrude several inches beyond the muzzle. The second hundred rounds were fired with double charges of powder, and with projectiles increasing as before, until they reached 10 times the weight of the service shot, and again extended beyond the muzzle of the gun. The gun remained uninjured to the last, and would be issued for service. (Hear, hear.) A 40-pounder of the strengthened pattern had also been tested in a similar manner, and had endured without injury 100 rounds fired with service charges, and :projectiles progressively increasing in weight from 401 b. to 4001 b., the latter forming solid cylinders, which filled the bore to within three inches of the muzzle. These were tests which had never been stood by any gun before, and the Ordnance Select Committee were, therefore, right in saying, " It may be safely assumed, from the proof, that the Armstrong 12-pounder possesses a degree of strength far beyond any requirement of the service, and that it is practically impossible to burst it by fair means." It had been stated that a 100-pounder Armstrong gun that was tried at Portsmouth had turned out a failure ; but this was not correct ; the gun was not sent to Portsmouth to be fired, as it had been somewhat injured by a shell bursting at its mouth ; but it so happened that it was fired, but it was not as a trial. A similar thing happened to a 100- pounder Armstrong gun at Shoeburyness, that had been sent down without the proper ring round it. A rather ex traordinary experiment had been recently made as to the effect of shot upon the Armstrong gun. A 9-pounder can non was brought with 20 yards of an Armstrong gun and an ordinary brass field-piece, and fired on them. The Armstrong gun was smashed and the brass piece rendered unserviceable. But as no batteries of artillery were ever known to come within 20 yards of each other the experi ment had no practical value ; and as they were obliged to go within 20 yards of the Armstrong gun to hit it at all it showed that it was very difficult to do so. An experi ment that had been made with an Armstrong gun and a smooth-bore cannon against two Martello towers on the Sussex coast had proved very satisfactory. The guns were placed at the same distance against two Martello towers of exactly the same construction, the smooth-bore piece having the advantage in the weight of its shot. From the Armstrong gun 170 rounds were fired, from the smooth bore 271. But in the tower against which the latter was fired no practicable breach was made, but the wall of the tower exposed to the fire of the Armstrong gun was reduced to a complete ruin. He did not think he had anything more to state with respect to these pieces; but their adoption had added largely to the vote for warlike stores and armaments. With respect to the other stores, there had been a very large in crease of shot and shell, and it had been placed ready for issue if it should be required for the service of the navy. The cost of these guns and projectiles was of course very large, and that was in addition to the increased pay of the men, and the extra provisions made for their comforts, me dical accommodation, and other things. These expenses had greatly increased during the past eight years. In 1852, 32- pounders were used, then 68-pounders, which cost double the price, and then came the Armstrongs, which cost twice as much as them. As regarded muskets, the old Brown Bess cost 305., while the Enfield cost from 555. to 60s. There were not only more expensive arms in all branches of the service, but the constant changes in them had been very costly. After the whole of the army had been supplied with the new rifle, he hoped the expenses would be gradu ally diminished. It must, however, be remembered, that so long as other countries made improvements ill arms for warfare, this country must keep alongside with them. With regard to the other votes, he would first observe that the one for fortifications this year was estimated at £390,000, being a nominal decrease of £47,000, the works for the pre sent year being very small. It would be more convenient to refer to them when the vote came on for discussion. The Secretary of State was of opinion that the expenses for forti fications should be kept as low as possible—merely obtaining possession of the land for the present. The committee would observe that there was a reduction in the estimates of £12,000 for barracks. On the other hand there was an estimate for works for testing the Armstrong guns at Elsecar, for a new school of gunnery at Shoeburyness, and one in Lancashire, which would be a great convenience to the volunteers in the north of England. The improvements which bad been introduced in hospitals would be continued, and means would be taken to give more amusement to soldiers in camp and where large numbers were collected together. With regard to the cost of the Ordnance survey, it was the inten tion of the Government to ask for the appointment of a com mittee to consider its progress, and in the meantime the vote for this year would be diminished. He would now read a few extracts from a report of some artillery officers who were sent abroad to inquire into the condition of foreign armies. They stated that although a few altera tions were in their opinion required in our military system, the condition of foreign soldiers was very inferior to that of our own. Voluntary enlistment, for instance, they regarded as less burdensome than a conscription ; and in addition to this our soldiers were better clothed and better fed than the soldiers of either France, Sardinia, Austria, Russia, or Prussia. He would now come to the question of the nen effective ♦otes. The commission of last session drew atten tion very forcibly to the inadequate sum paid by the Indian Government to meet the dead weight charges borne by the imperial exchequer. The commission was composed of ofd cers selected by the Secretary for War, the Secretary for India, and the Treasury. They had recommended that instead of the £50,000 per annum now paid by the Indian Government, £3 10s. per man per annum should in future be paid by that Government into the imperial exchequer. That would supply a sum of £200,000 per annum in aid of tho imperial exchequer, which would not be an inadequate sum. To that proposition the Secretary of State for India in Council had agreed, and he believed it would be the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or of the Secretary to the Treasury to introduce a bill in the course of the session to give effect to that purpose. It was also proposed that in order to get rid of the complicated accounts between the India-office and the War-office, of which the right hon. gentleman had justly complained, £lO per man should be charged in lieu of various payments in detail. This would save an enormous amount of unnecessary correspondence and labour. This plan had also boon accepted by the Secre tary of State for India in Council. Having gone through the estimates to the best of his ability, ho would now coke to general results. The not decrease of £185,795 was not the real decrease upon thes estimates. The real decrease was more. In addition to the £185,795 must be taken a sum of £500,000, the Indian credit upon the clothing and store notes. That made a decrease of .£685,795. On the other hand, as the bon. gentleman had pointed out, there is a sum of £390,000 for fortifications, which is to be deducted. That made the real decrease £295,795, or in round numbers £300,000. Having concluded the observations he had to make, he had only to state further that the estimates had been framed with every regard to economy, consistently with the efficiency of the public service. He did not think the house would consent to a smaller number being on the military establishment than was provided by the estimates ) nor did he think that the house would consider that the arming of the navy with, the improved ordnance qhould be delayed a moment longq than was ueeessary 0 arm the ships as perfectly Gs possible. An the whole, ho thought the committee would see that the estimate was not largerthan under the present ciycwstance s _ -- of the empire it was necessary for this house to provide for the military service of 1861-2. (The hon. gentleman was cheered by both sides of the house.) Col. DUNNE thought the hon. gentleman had injudi ciously mixed up in one account the men engaged in India and those on the home service. The hon. gentleman asked for £40,000 for levy men for recruits. Each recruit required about £7 9s. before he joined his regiment; but if he re quired £lO the whole number would not cost more than £20,000. Either the hon. gentleman wanted too much money for recruiting, or he had too little for the payment of the troops. He (Col. Dunne) had looked through the estimates, and notwithstanding all the prejudices of his profession in favour of giving the army all that they were entitled to, he thought there was much room for reduction, especially in the staff and civil departments. The vote of £13,000 last year for supernumerary regiments had been in•• creased this year to £15,000. He saw no reason for this. He thought the depot battalions should be reduced,and that there should be no stoppages horn the pay of soldiers for hospital expenses, but that the soldiers should be made certain as to the exact amount of his pay under all circumstances. These stoppages led to the multiplication of accounts, and induced much unnecessary expense. There was in the esti mates an item of £42,000 for the movement of troops. He thought this was an enormous amount, considering that we had our camps now, and that comparatively few move ments took place. As compared with the general expendi ture of our army in 1815, when we had to provide for up wards of 300,000 men, he thought the estimates were alto gether excessive. He had no objection to inspectors of cavalry or directors of artillery, but he could not see the use of a general inspector of the guards. (Hear, hear.) As Lord Rokeby had retired with the perfect good will of every one, it was high time that that office should be abolished. Then there was the inspector of infantry, an office now held by a distinguished officer, and one loved by the whole army, but if depots were done away with, that officer would not be required. If generals of districts could not inspect a regiment, they were not competent for their present situ ation. (Hear.) Therefore, ho felt that the staff should be reduced. These were some of his preliminary objections to these estimates. He hoped the Government would lay upon the table of the house what it paid for the clothing of the army. He believed that the Government really knew no thing whatever on this part of the subject. With respect to the Armstrong guns, he could not understand exactly what was the explanation that was made regarding this arm. He wished also to know what had become of the rifles which had been purchased for the army in 1852-53. Mr. WILLIAMS said that there was not a country in the world that was making an attack upon us, and yet our military force exceeded the force of France. (Oh, oh, and hear.) He was justified in saying this, for our military force, including the Irish constabulary, amounted to 300,000 men, and deducting the gendarmes and the army in Algeria, China, and other places, the French army at home did not exceed 300,000 men; and our ships and guns were double those of the French. It was now estimated that the expense of the army for this year of peace would be £14,600,000, and this did not include the expense of the militia. In 1830 the estimate for the army, in the Duke of W ellington's Administration, was £7,900,000 ; under Earl Grey the expense of the army was £8,110,000 ; under Lord Melbourne it was £7,800,000, while under the administra tion of the present Foreign Secretary, in 1851, it was £8,823,000. The average for these seven years was £6,600,000 a year. What then was the cause of this in crease in the estimates at a period like the present. Some explanation was necessary, and he hoped it would be given. The hon. gentleman after complimenting the volunteers for coming forward in the present emergency, again expressed his surprise at the increase in our army expenditure. Colonel DICKSON said that every year the hon. mem ber for Lambeth seemed to extend his views with regard to the amount of our army. Could anything be more ex traordinary than his statement that our army was equal to that of France ? He (Colonel Dickson) was for an efficient army, but he thought it ought to be maintained at the lowest possible rate consistent with its efficiency. He could see no reason whatever why, in 1853-1854, when on the eve of a Russian war, the expenditure for 119,000 men should be nine millions, and for 146,000 in the present year the enormous sum of fourteen millions. That was an expendi ture beyond all proportion, and he must say was totally unwarranted. The expenses of material were in the same proportion, while those of the Commander-in• Chief's offices exceeded that of 4854 by £BO,OOO. The expense of each soldier in the present year was calculated at £lOO a-head, while in 1854 it was but £75, and he wished to know why it was there was such an enormous difference. He had, however, to express a hope that the cavalry would not be reduced, because a cavalry soldier was a very ex. pensive article, and should not be lightly done away with. Hon. members opposite were calling out for reform, but certainly if they continued voting these enormous sums of money some change must take place in the constitution of that house. Mr. BARING, in reply, said there was no objection whatever to the return of the clothing, asked by the gal lant member for Queen's County ; and as to what had been said by the hon. and gallant member for Limerick, he was surprised to find he was opposed to so excellent an establishment as the Staff College for young officers. He could assure him that he himself examined the dif ference between the estimates in 1853 and 1854, and those of the present year. There were, in the first place, 24,000 men more this year, and between their pay, warlike stores, and other necessaries, the additional expense on these articles alone would be £2,200,000. There was a large increase of £146,000 in the personnel of the army, and of £580,000 for previsions. That, however, did not arise from extravagance, but represented so much improvement in the condition of the soldiers, representing the difference between stoppages of 41d. instead of 6d. At a time when the pay of agricultural labourers was increasing, if they did not give some corresponding benefit to the soldier, what would become of voluntary enlistment ? In conclu sion he had only to express his hope that the house would be willing to give its ready attention to these estimates, in order that they might be proceeded with without any unnecessary delay, and he desired to have the vote moved agreed to that night. Mr. HENLEY said the hon. gentleman the Under- Secretary for War said they had no right to look back to what the expenses for the army were a few years ago ; but the hon. member, lumping one branch of the service with another, contrived to throw dust in the eyes of the country. The increased expense was great, and they had in that way a difference of nearly £5,000,000 to account for. The increase of men was by no means more than it ought to be; indeed, he did not think they had one man too many; tut what he complained of was the vastly in creased expense they were year after year entering into; and this they might depend upon—that if they went on in that way, the country would cry out against it, and call upon the house to reduce the number of men. That was what he was afraid of. Ho apprehended that the country would get sick of it. Looking through the estimates, he found in almost every item an increased expense. The only Ram in which he saw a saving, was that of fortifications ; but he saw, that while the expenses increased 60 per cent., the efficiency of the men increased only 21 or 22 per cent. Lord PALMERSTON was glad to find hon. and gallant members agree that the number of men was not greater than the interests of the country demanded. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, this they understood, that a very great number of men covered in a great degree the aggregate expense. Then, again, every one he thought was agreed that as the improvements in the scientific branches of gunnery in creased, so also must the expenses increase in proportion— that was to say, great improvements in cannon and muskets, and the consequent charges for material, were in them selves alone a cause of very great and necessary expense. He thought, then, that they would find the great bulk of the expense was, as he said, owing partly to the great increase in the number of men, and partly to the improvements in' the implements of war. besides that, hon. gentlemen ought to boar in mind that not many ses sions had passed lately in which hon. members had nol proposed changes, no doubt good in themselves, but which were expensive. Ono member, for instance, proposed an improvement in the barrack accommodation ; another said the clothing of the army was inferior in quality, and ought to be improved ; another member found fault with the hospitals as not keeping pace with the improved sana tory science of the day. (Hear, hear.) But all these changes, good though they might be, tended to increase the estimates, although no doubt the additional charges had been well and properly incurred. But they had been told that the increase in the civil charges for the manage ment of the army had of late also been most unnecessarily and extravagantly increased. Upon that point he would simply say that when they came to that portion of the esti mates it would be perfectly competent for tho committee to deal with it, and if extravagance could be shown to reduce the estimate. But the amalgamation of the different depart ments formerly existing under separate heads, and the abolition of the divided authority, which was so great an evil, had, in his opinion, largely contributed to the efficiency of the public service, and any temporary increase, while in a state of transition, ought to be acquiesced in, when it was known that the military service of the country was never in a more efficient state than it was at present. Mr. MONSELL said the noble lord had not answered the real complaint, namely, the constant and alarming in crease in the amount of these changes, and for the sake of the service itself they ought to guard against the inevita ble reaction which must come. (Hear, hear) He would admit that the number of men to be voted this year might be necessary, but for many years this had been going on, especially in the manufacturing departments. There must be now an enormous accumulation of these means at Wool wich after the enormous expenditure of past years for the purpose of turning out the weapons required, and yet they were called upon to vote £200,000 or £260,000 more for these establishments. They ought to know what was the actual state of these establishments in order to prevent a revulsion of feeling which would leave them without money for those purposes. (Hear.) Vote agreed t% A. vote of £146,014 men was then proposed. Col, DUNNE having said a few words, the vote for the number of men was agreed to. £1,780,000 pay and allowances. Col. DUNNE moved that the committee report progress. Lord PALMERSTON hoped that the house would not vote the men and then refuse their pay and allowances. H should certainly take the sense of the house on this vote. The house divided— For reporting. progress Against it Major S. KNOX moved to reduce the vote by £11,337 for the depot battalions. Mr. BARING said it was' right to call attention to the depot battalions, but they formed part of the next vote. Col. KNOX then moved that the vote be reduced by £50,000 for medical staff and hospital charges. Mr. BARING said that both those items would also form part of aaother vote. (Laughter.) Colonel DIC KS ON observed that what was taking place showed the inexpediency of going on with the committee. Besides ho had read the noble viscount's speech the other night, in which he promised only to take the number of men. Mr. A. SMITH thought the Government ought not to proceed further to-night. This was a large estimate of £4,000,000 and upwards, and it ought to be divided into several parts. Lord PALMERSTON said he should be very unwilling to ask the committee to decide at once on a matter which might be open to discussion. Suppose they took a vote on account of one-half. The money was much wanted. Mr. CHILDERS said there was a large addition to the medical staff; and there were other appointments to which many hon. members objected; and if they agreed to the vote, it might prevent them discussing the items. Mr. BARING said there would be no new appointments made before the full vote was agreed to. The sum of £3,000,000 was agreed to on account, the chairman reported progress, and the house resumed. THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Lord PALMERSTON said it might be convenient to state that the Government proposed to take the Bankruptcy Bill first on Monday evening, and if that should be over about 10 o'clock, they would go on with the Navy Esti mates. Mr. COLLINS asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Appropriation of Seats' Bill would come on. Sir G. C. LEWIS said he should not bring on that Bill before Easter. Mr. G. HARDY wished to know when the Highways Bill would be brought on. Sir G. C. LEWIS said he hoped on Monday evening after the Bankruptcy Bill. Mr. MOWBRAY asked when the Local Government Bill would be proceeded with. Mr. CLIVE said ha proposed to postpone it to the 14th of May. WAYS AND MEANS. The report of the committee on ways and means was brought up. THE EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. This bill was read a second time. RED SEA AND INDIAN TELEGRAPH BILL. This bill was read a third timo. LONDON COAL AND WINE DUTIES. The house having resolved into committee, Sir G. C. LEWIS moved a resolution on which to found a bill for the purpose of continuing for 10 years the coal duties and the port duties on wine now levied by the officers of the Corporation of London. The coal duties consisted of a 4d. duty, which the corpo ration considered part of the City estate; an Bd. duty which had been appropriated under an Act of Parliament, and the,proceeds applied by direction of the First Commis sioners of Works, and which would shortly expire; and another duty of id., which would also shortly expire. He proposed to continue the duties for 10 years—the proceeds of the 9d. tax to be paid into a fund to be devoted to me• tropolitan improvements—the purposes to be hereafter defined by Parliament, but more especially with reference to a recommendation of a committee of last session which sat on the embankment of the Thames. These duties were at present levied over 20 miles round a central point in the metropolis ; but he proposed to confine the area to the metropolitan police district. Mr. AYRTON complained that no notice had been given of the nature of the resolutions. Sir G. C. LEWIS said he had only followed the univer sal practice in regard to such resolutions. The resolution was then agreed to. Mr. CAIRD obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend the jurisdiction of the Sheriff Ordinary and Small Debt Courts in Scotland. Mr. BRADY obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend the time given to the clerks of the peace of counties in Ire land for the publishing of the lists of voters objected to, under the act of the 13th and 14th years of Victoria, chap. 69, sections 27 and 37. Sir G. LEWIS obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the law relating tc elections of members of Parliament, and a bill to amend the law relating to industrial schools. The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to bring in a bill for the improvement, regulation, and protection of the salmon fisheries in Scotland, and on the coasts of ,the Sol way Firth, and in the mouth or entrance of the river Tweed. Mr. HUTT obtained leave to bring in a bill to enable the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital to execute certain works for the service of such hospital. The bills were severally brought in and read a first time. The house adjourned at one o'clock. PAIRS ON MR. LOQK KING'S MOTION. FOR. AGAINST. Lord R. Clinton with Sir C. Burrell Mr. Pr se Hon. J. A. Ponsonby „ Mr. Goddard Mr. Hodgkinson „ Mr. Jolliffe Sir H. T. Davie „ Mr. Kendall Sir J. Matheson Mr. M. Dunne lion. J. Monson Lord Hartington „ Col. Bathurst Col. Stuart (Cardiff) „ Mr. Lort Phillips lion. W. 0. Stanley „ Major Sibthorp Col. Tynte Mr: Hodgson „ Hon. Henry Wyndham Mr. Locke „ Sergeant Kinglake Sir Baldwin Leight on M. Mellor Mr. Greenwood ~ Mr. Hope Johnst one Mr. Divett ......... „ Sir Massey Lop e s 11r. Ald. Copeland Mr. Buchanan Hon. C. Fitzwilliam „ Mr. Maxwell Close Mr. Marsh „ Lord Pevensey lion G. Denman „ Mr. Bovill Mr. Merry „ Mr. Stirling Mr. Collier „ Mr. Monta gue S mith Mr, Herbert Mr. Redmond ~ Mr. Hugh Taylor „ Mr. Walter Long The German journals relate that, at a grand rifle match a few days back at Prutz, in the Tyrol, an image, intended to represent M. de Vincke, the Prussian deputy, was placed on a mark, with beneath it his name and the words, " Death to all bad Germans." LADVERTISTMENT.]—Nothing can be more interesting than the numerous extraordinary cures without Medicine by Du Barry's delicisus Health Restoring Revalenta Ara bica Food. We give a few :—Winchester, December 3, 1847.—Gentlemen,--I am happy to be able to inform you, that the person for whom your Revalenta was procured has derived very great benefit from its use; distressing symp toms of Dropsy, Dyspepsia, and Constipation of long stand ing have been restored, and a feeling of restored health in duced.—James Shorland, late Surgeon, 66th Regiment. Cure No. 48,314—Miss Elizabeth Yeoman, Gateacre, near Liverpool : a cure of ten years' dyspepsia, and all the hor rors of nervous ir r it a bili ty. Cure No. 46;814—Mr. Samuel Laxton, Leicester, of two years diarrhcea. Cure No. 52,612—The Dowager Countess of Castleatuart, of nian3 years nervous irritability, bile, and indigestion. A void Pills and Medicines : they invariably aggravate and perpetuate diseases ; their annoyance, disappointment, and expense may b e avo id e d b y us i ng Du Barry's Food which, at a few pence per day, saves 50 times its cost in other remedies, removing effectually, without purging, constipation, indigestion (dyspepsia) nervous, bilious and liver complaints and all their consequences. Certificate No. 36,418. We find it the safest remedy. Andrew Ure a MD., F.R.S., Dr Harvey, Dr. Wurzer, Dr. Shorland, D r . Campell. Let invalids avoid the fearful dangers of spu rious and injurious imitations offered under a variety of false pretences. Nevill's imitations are prohibited by the high Court of Chancery under a penalty of £5,000 against Alfred Hooper Nevill and his agents ; and the pretences that Nevill has a patent for Arabica Food and that Du Barry's are connected with such patent are utterly false. No canister is genuine without the name Barry Du Barry and Co., 77, Regent-street, in full, ontheseal and wrapper. Shopkeepers who attempt imposition in one article must expect to be distrusted in all others. Packed in tins lib. 2s. 9d.; 21b. 4s. 6d. ; 51b. lls. ; 121 b. 225. ; 241 b. 40s. The s a deen; 63an d an C d o. ls ; O A , b o b i it o l f 2l p b. os a t n .o d fa 2 ce 4lb o . l c .d a e n r iste b ;s ß a a re rry se D nt u c ß a a rri rr a y g a e n f d ree co o ., n 7 r 7 e , c ß ei e. pt ° 4 rt , num Chea M p Oz bard-street ; 330 and 451, Strand ; 49 and 60, Bishopsgate -6goe,ntG-srtarceeeeth,uLroenhd-setnre;e4' street ; Batty, 16, Finsbury Pavement ; Phillips and Co. tea-dealers; Petty, Wood, and Co., King William-street, City ; at 127 High Holborn ; and all grocers. BIRTHS. MAUNSELL.—On the 13th inst., at 12, Lower Belgrave-st., Eaton-square, the wife of Commander Eyre Matumell, R.N., of a daughter. SWERIDAN.—On the 13th inst., at Bellefield House, Ful ham, the wife of H. B. Sheridan, Esq., M.P., of a daughter. VALLETORT.—On the 14th inst., at 23, Wilton-crescent, the Lady Katharine Valletort, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. BURGESS—WOODHOUSE.—On the 12th inst., at Bray, Becks, Mr. A. W. Burgess, fourth son of the late W. R. Burgess, of 107, Strand, London, to Sarah, the second daughter of Mr. Woodhouse, of Bray. DYER—RICHA.RDS.—On the 6th inst., at St. James's, Pic cadilly, Frederick C. S. Dyer, Captain 17th Regt., third sou of Sir Thomas Dyer, Bart., to Selenah Maria -Ann, third daughter of the late Rev. E. D. W. Richards, rector of St. Andrews, Glamorganshire.: DEATHS. ALLEN.—On the 13th inst., Seymour P, Allen, Esq., of Cresselly, in Pembrokeshire, aged 46. ANNIs.—On the 12th inst., at Upton, Miss Mary Annis, aged 72. GILBANK.—On the 12th inst., at Ketitish-town, William N. Gilbank, Esq., aged 45, GUISE.—On the 10th inst., at Longhope, Gloucestershire, the Rev. Vernon G. Guise, vicar, third surviving son of General Sir J. W. Guise, Bart., aged 37. KINLOCIL—On the 10th inst., at Nice, Lady Kinloch, widow of Sir Al exan der Kinloch, of Gilmerton, Bart., aged 88. LONDON Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, at No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE Sim Office, No. 112,Strand , in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the County of Middlealx, Friday, MAT eh 15, 1861.