The Sun. — London, England, 1831-09-21 00:00:00

,~:~,-~ . :~,", '~'~` 'was done in the Vice-Chancellor's Coast WAs to be done by the Court of ReView. which was to be stiiktuted for Cie Vice-Chancelor's Court. This was no improvenient, hut the plan was inferior to the present system. Sir Sa muel Rotuilly had often said that the best Judge to try questions, both of law and fact, was that Judge most con versant with law and the rules of evidence, and most fre quently employed in considering and deciding upon them. Now, in this view, the Vice-Chancellor was the preferable -Wee, for what was it that was to be substituted for his tribunal ? It was a Court of Review, consisting of three Judges, who were to it, not constantly, but pi-o cc note. Was there any necessity for the appoitithient of this new Court ? There was no arrear in the bankruptcy cases, The Vice-Chancel'or kept them all down, and there was no occasion for an inferior tribunal to do the business which he would do so much better. The ViceaChancel lor sat for thirty-five days in the year in bankruptcy, and in that time completely disposed of the bankrupt peti tions. This Court was appointed for the whole year, and three Judges were to be employed throughout the year in doing that which the Vice-Chancellor did in thirty-five days. For a great part of the year, therefore, they would be altogether idle. There was smother point Which (night not to be omitted. The great evil of the present system existed in the country, and the Bill put the country Commissioners in a great measure on the same footing as those on which tote London Commissioners stool at pre •yeet. Now why did his Noble and Learned Friend do away with the least part of the system before he corrected that which was confessedly imperfect ? It was beginning at the wrong end. The advantage of the system was as three to two in favour of London as compared with the country, and therefore, the system in the country really required amend ment ; and it was one good provision in the new plati, that it raised the country Commissioners to tile level cf those of London. Finally , ' this was a subj-ct of great importance; and he candidly and sincerely recommended to his Noble Friend to refer the Bill and the whole of the sulneet to a Special Commission of this House. In this Committee his Nable, and Learned Friend might him self he included, and the most competent of their . Lord ships might be appointed, with powers to avail th-in of the assistance of all those whom they should judge most capable of throwing light on the subject. He himself would give the matter all the time and attention in his I power, and, upon the whole, a measure would then be prix:uced which would rive general satisfaction. The LORD CHANCELLOR—He rose thus early to make some observations in answer to the arguments of his Noble and Learned Friend, and to explain the general na ture of his system ; and the reason was, that the speech of his Noble and Learned Friend probably embodied all the objections to the Bill, and it was much easier to re collect them and deal with them than if he bad to apply himself to the speeches of a great number of speakers. Nothing could be more candid than the spirit and tem per with which his Noble and Learned Friend hail spoken. His Noble and Learned Friend had well said that this was not a party question, for it was one in which they were all equally concerned. The great question was, in what manner could the existing evle be b.st remedied, if evils there were. He fully admitted to his Noble and Learned Friend, that the first question was, whether any evils did exist; and then they bad to consider whe ther the proposed remedy was good and efficient for the purpose. He fully admitted that no change ought to be attempted without good reason and really substantial cause. if evils did not exist at all, or if they existed only in a small degree, then you ought to let well alone, or modify the existing system, and to do nothing more. his Male and Learned Friend had 'commented on the charges con tained in two petitions, and the language in which they were conveyed. One of the petitions was from the Com mon Council of the City of London, and the other from the merchants, traders, and bankers assembled at the Man sion House. The latter of these petitions he himself had the honour to present to that House, and it had affixed to it the names of most of the distinguished bankers, mer chants, and traders in London ; and as to the complaints made by them, lie might say that they might be exceed ingly good judges of the existing evils of the present system, which was nothing more than saying that they were ex ceedingly good judges of their own sufferings under the system. They were the best witnesses of the fact of the existence of the evils, since they were the parties who suf fered by them ; but it was possible that they might not be able to judge clearly and learnedly of the immediate causes of these evils, and still less of the proper remedy lie did not trust to them, therefore, as authority in regard to the remedy to be proposed, but he did consider them as good judges on the question, whether the existing sys tem was a good one, and whether it wrought well. As to that remedy, he bad not depended merely on his own experience or his own reflections, but had hail re course to quarters the most distinguished for wisdom enn learning anti sung anti extetnove calm - mace. ne had had many interviews and consultations on the sub ject with those who were much wiser and more experi enced than he was himself, and took their suggestions into account along with his own experience and know ledge. He had also availed himself of the assistance of six or seven of the most experienced of the existing Commis sioners of Bankrupts, not certainly showing any indispo- sition to consult that class of men against whom his Noble and Learned Friend appeared to think that his system was levelled. He had shown no distrust of them, but had con sulted the most sagacious and experienced of them, and laid his plan before them, and explained to them its gene ral principles. By them his system had been examined and sifted, and, he might say, unsparingly scrutinized. In some points be bad yielded to them, and in others, where he thought be had himself greater experience, pertinent to the subject in hand in a department of the law, he bad not yielded to them. In this manner they had gone on, alter nately yielding and resisting ; and the result was, the for mation of the first plan. That was not the plan now proposed to their Lordships. The plan now proposed had been the result of still further communication and consul tation with others the most expel ienced in bankruptcy eases in the Courts of Law and Equity. Ili.; he had done before lee had teen entrusted with the Great Seal, and bad continued the cot respendence afterwards. Added to this, he had consulted with some cf the most eminent attorneys and solicitors, the most extensively experience d in matters of this nature, and from them had obtained in formation as valuable as any that he had obtained from any quarter, especially in regard to the appointment of the official assignees, and as to the disposition of some assig nets under the existing system to give preferences to cre ditors, and in other respects to act contrary to their duty. From them also he had obtained the most explicit and dis tinct information as to the frauds of ass:gm es and solicitors. He also consulted many of those who had signed the pe titions at the Common Council and the Mansion-house, and many other persans who had been the greatest sufferers from the present system, and upon the whole he lead been enabled to frame a much more perfect system than lee had at first formed, and that more perfect system was now tinder the consideration of their Lordships. He had made several changes in the details of the Bit, and had in every way endeavoured to make it better than it was at first; and the Commissioners appointed under the former Bill bad carefully investigated every part of it, and made alte • , 'awns, wherever, upon the fullest etnsideration, they ap -1 • peered to be necessary; and the tesuli was, the improved Bill now before their Lordships, not diffet ing in any re si:ect, however, front the pCinciples of the other. The 7 . .. P. I\oble and Learned Lord would therefore, perceive that , the - had not been inconsiderately introduced. The first of his Noble Friend's ohjectjuns rela•e:l to the attack which It , ‘ said had been made upon the. C. to . ' . ss . ' intioners of Bankruptcy. Now he (the Lord Chau . 1 4 cella) quite ceneurtod in all that his Noble Friend bad said in favour of those learned and respectable persons. In every thing that he himself had said respecting the necessity for that Bill, he had endeavoured to guard himself from the suspicion of making an attack upon them. What he objected to was the system, of which the effects were, in the first place, to give less able Judges, and to render those less able Judges still less effi cient for their duties. It was obviously difficult to find at any bar seventy men fit to perform the duties of those Commissioners. It was also quite obvious that the num ber being limited to ten, there could be little difficulty in securing high capability in each of them. Those Judges being so numerous, their appointment became almost in evitably a matter of patronage; the perfect competency of one individual out of 70, being considered nn every nets appointment as not a watt , r of very weighty importance. But if the Judges were limited to 10, the person havin , the appointment would he careful to select the most effi cient he could fi n d, lie had known instances of the grossest incapability on the part of the London Commis sioners, and, when he inquired into r one of those cases he found that the two Contrnission a er t s o w . l 4 sa a t n uTo ti n le th e e tt n: e c r aca sion, were — one of them an t young gentleman w h o had not been yet c a r e d t o t h e bar.. The other two Commissioners (who were competent men) were not present. Still the majority of those Judges were much superior to what was to be expected from the natural tendency of the system under which they were appointed. Ills Nub': Friend thought that fourteen lists were expe dient, because they left room for the contraction or expan sion of the number of attending Commissioners, according to the state of the business. But what else did this con traction and expansion mean, than that the number was much greater than was wanted ? It meant that there were seventy Commissioners, and that there was no occasion for seventy,—(Hear,) Under the hurricane of bankruptcy, ' and in the dead calm of stagnation of trade, the number of 'Commissioners was the same. In reply to the objection that the present Court was too expensive, his Noble Friend had stated that sixty commissions bad been worked at an expense not exceeding one farthing in the pound sterling. But the person on whose authority this statement was made, admitted, in his examination by the Commissioners, that it was founded in error, and was wholly inaccurate. In the different Nets there were different rules. A person going into one room bad oetanner of justice dealt nut to him, end going into the next found quite another. It was well known, perhaps not to their Lordships, but to every attorney, merchant, and tradesman in London, and also to the House of Commons, that the chances of a fraudulent bankrupt's committal were very different in the different lists; and that one list committed more than all the others together. He did not mean to charge the Com mssioners of that list with exceeding their duty ; on the contrary, he thought that it might be better if there were more instances of committal in the other lists:—( Hear.) In fact, those gentlemen were not protected in the exercise of their judgments like all other Judges. They were liable to an action of damages for fal-e imprisonment, in the same way as common bliliffs were. The consequence was, that in some lists the Commissioners shrunk from the respon sibility of committal, and allowed the bankrupt to a ass unpunished rather than risk an action for damages.— (Hear.) One other important duty of those Judges was, to find the property of the bankrupt, to detect the fictitious creditor, and to defeat those whoendeavour to make the com mission the mean , of defrauding the real creditor. The system under which those Courts were at present consti tuted preventing their being fit for that duty. It is well known to be one of the most difficult duties of the Judge or the lawyer to search, and sift, and analyse the testimony of a dishonest witness. But he could name a score of these Commissioners who were wholly incap :tele of per forming such a duty. He did not blame those gentlemen. The fault was not in them, but in the appointing of them. Many of them were boys, taken from Westminster-hall almost the first day they entered it. The Bill before their Lordships would secure the appointment of barristers of standing, experience, and character ; who, being pro tected as Judges, would be competent to their duties, and would perform them efficiently. He no more blamd the present CoMmissioners for their inability to discharge their functions of Judges, than he would blame his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst) for his inability to play upon the fiddle, because he bad not practised that art. His Noble Friend objected to the appointment of the official assignees, on the ground of their high salaries. But he (the Lord Chancellor) looked upon that part of the Bill as the most valuable. There were at present some hun dreds of ti ousands of pounds in the hands of assignees, of which not one shilling could be recovered, because the assignees had become bankrupts themselves, or had left the country. _ To remedy suck evils it was pro posed to appoint assignees, responsible to the Court, who should take possession of the funds of the bankrupt:, not excluding his choice or that of his creditors from the ap peintinent of assignees, as usual, for the administration of his estate. As matters were managed at present, assignees were known frequent . ) , to put off as long as possible the Winding up of the bankrupt's affairs, that the money might remain so long in their own hands. Therefore, when l e (Lord Brougham) inquired into the sources of the clamour which had been raised against that Bill, he found that it carne from the trading assignees, one or two attorneys con nected with the Bankruptcy Court, and one or two public accountants, for all those persons were immediately inte rested in upholding the present system. His-Noble Friend spoke of the expensiveness of the system proposed by the new Bill. But the expense of that system would be no more than 49,000/., whereas the present cost was between seventy and eighty thousand pounds. As to the patronage also, his Noble Friend knew that the Chancellor had the appointment of the present seventy Commissioners. Now this Bill would reduce the patron ige considerably, for, in stead of seventy, he would have the appointment only of eleven Judges. The chances of new appointments were diminished much more then in proportion to that di minution of number. The present Commissioners had many openings for promotion, but the new ones would have promotion before them, but only to become one of the fifteen Judges of the Superior Courts. The vacan cies that would be occasioned by such promotions were averaged too highly at one a year. They could not be more than one in two years. Besides, the Chan cellor being obliged to make his choice from so small a circle, inasmuch as he must necessarily select a well qualified barrister, could not in truth be said to have any patronage at all in the appointment. He would trouble their Lordships with a very few words, respecting the charge made against him by his Noble Friend, that he was increasiug, by the Bill before their Lordship., the pa tronage of the Chancellor—indeed his own personal pa- Lrorrage.—e near. ) ...toe, $ 6 %V ca . a • ~. s.• • . i5..1 5 —.1 ~.... .I. retiring pension of the Lord Chancellor was taken very low, when it was made the same as that of the Chief Jr.'s. tire of the King's Bench—the expenses of the latter Judge being very little compared to those of the Chancellor, who was obliged to take an active part in the business of the State. Those expenses were especially heavy on a man who, like him (Lord Brougham) never saved anything. Perhaps it was in consideration of those expenses, and the uncertain duration of the offiee, whereby the man holding was rendered less able to provide for his family, leaving him at the same time a title to support—that the Lord Chancellor had always in his gift several places with high a aeries, which were mere sinecur,s, and by which he was enabled to provide for hie family. One of those sinecures, worth about 9,000/. a year, had been given by the Chancellor, Lord Thurlow, to a member of his own family, and one of the family still held it. That it was a sinecure would be readily acknowledged, when it had actually been held by no less celebrated a person than Nell Gwynne.—(Hear.) There were, besPes, the office of Clerk of the Hanaper, and several others, absolute sinecures, which were always given to rehttions of the persons hold ing the Great Seal. Amongst those were the twenty-four Cursitors, some of whom received . 2,0001. a year, and the others from. 1501. to 5001. a year. There, then, was the di-posal of upwards of 20,000/. a year, which he (Lord Brougham) had cut eff for ever from the Great Seal.— (Much cheering.) The Bill which he proposed might be a bad one. The present system for carrying the Bank ruptcy Laws into effect might be excellent. The mer chants, bankers, and traders of London might all be mis taken respecting their own interest. He might have introduced the Bill without subnOfirg it to any compe tent persons to give an opinion on the subject, to suggest an improvement, or to detect a fault ; and the whole measure might be an example of imbecility and presump tion. All that might be very true; but it could not be true that he had introduced the measure for the sake 'of increasing his own patronage, at the very moment that he was cutting from his family the rich provision which they might have found in those sinecures —(Cheers)—when he was depriving himself of all means of providing for them, with a tit'e to support, except the retiring pension, which was less than half the emoluments of the profession, which he had exchanged fur the Great Seal. He would frankly confess, that whatever other faults lie might have supposed his Noble Friend could attribute to him, he was not pre pared for the charge of designing to increase the patronage of his office and of himselt personally. Not having been prepared for such an accusation, lie trusted that their Lordships would make some allowance if lie had not sufficiently repelled the charge.—(Herr, hear.) His Noble Friend approved of the present system, because it gave an appeal to the Vice-Chancellor. But it was to be con sidered that in the G•urt cf lteview, to which the Bill would give the appeal, there would be a trial by Jury. Now it is well known that the Court of Chancery was wholly unfit to deal with a question of disputed facts. He himself had found the diffidulty of wading to the truth through a mass of affidavits; for in that Court there was no end to swearing. The encouragement to perjury was unlimited. His Noble and Learned Friend bad spoken of the appeal to the Vice-Chancellor, and of the manner in which it would be affected by this Bill—contending that the system ought not to be disturbed :.it was to be recol lected, however, that the office of Vice-Chancellor had only been created for a temporary purpose—that of getting rid of the =ear of business before the Lord Chancellor ; but it might so happen (he did not mean of course to say abso lutely that it would happen) that the appointment of a Vice-Chancellor might not be longer necessary, and in that case, what would become of the appeal ? Of course it could no longer exist, and in that ease the benefit of the change of the system would be fully experienced. Complaint had also been made with reference to county commissions, and it was unquestionably a most objectionable part of the present system ; but it was easily capable of some im provement, and the improvement now contemplettd, would at least give to the country the advantages at present enjoyed by the commercial interest in London. The purpose now was merely to apply the Bill upon the table to the metropolis, and a district of twenty miles round it, and hereafter, as it was found to answer, it might be extended further ; but the machinery was too pre vailing found deiec t,. that on it e was of the complic a t e d t o sprea d over a w id er sur f ace unt il i t was c well consequences adapted of t remedyot the changepre vlae would, perhaps, lie, to lessen the number of bankruptcies, inasmuch as it would put an end to fraudulent anti some times to friendly cotnniiesions; if such were notfoundbe the result, it would be ()Wing to the i c.rcumstanc e that not not a few who now were discharged under the Insolvent Mt ) , with all its future liabilities, would then give a pre ferenee to the new Bankrupt Law, by which they would he freed from farther responsibility to their creditors. At least such would, probably, be the effect with honest debt ors who were only anxious to give tip the whole of their property to those to whom it justly belonged . Having troubled their Lordships with these remarks in explana tion and vindication of the 13111, he would not occupy their attention longer. The Earl of ELDON said that he would have no wish but that the law on this subject would he put under the hest possible system of regulation ; and after having long practised in Courts of Equity, before he held the Great Seal, and having occupied the Woolsack fur five-and twenty years, he would not accept the apology the Noble and Learned Lord had made for him for not introducing some of the reforms now contemplated. His opinion was, that the abuses professed to be remedied did not exist, and that belief would fully account for, and excuse any sup posed supineness on his parr. He did not doubt that the Noble and Learned Lord bad taken great pains with his Bill, and had made it as perfect as circumstances would allow, hut the great point to he decided in the first instance was, whether it was necessary, and that question the Hous e ought not to leave to the determination of any individual, however well qualified, but should institute a grave and patient inquiry into all the facts before a Committee of its own. The change was extensive and violent, and the least that could be expected was that no means of information had been neglected. A great deal of misconception had gene abroad with regard to the expences of the present system, and the. exaggerations might be judged of from tie mis. statements that from time to time had gone abroad respecting the emoluments of the Keeper of the Great Seal. While he was in that situation it had at various times been stated that the income of the Lord Chancellor was 30,0001. a year ; nay, some had gone so far as to assert that it was not less than 35 WO/. a year. The fact, however, was, as he had repeatedly stated, and shown by documents, that the average income of the Lord Chancellor, while he (Lord Eldon) was in office, little coceeded 15 0001. a year. Difficulties and doubts had arisen out of the fact that part of the emoluments of the occupant of the Woolsack were derived from the payment of fees—an arrangement, he admitted, highly onjectionabie. It led to the suspicion that business was delayed or increased for the s the of the fees, and it would be far better that this part of his income should be put upon tl c same footing as that of the Chief Justices of the King's L'encli and Common Pleas. Objec tions had-also been taken to the amount of patronage pos sessed by the Lord Chancellor ; but in this point he in some degree coincided with the Noble and Learned Lord, recollecting the very uncertain tenure of the efface. The Noble and Learned Lord, in a low tone of voice, then made some remarks upon the manner in which Lord Thurlow had proceeded in the abolition of the sinecure of the individual who formerly had enjoyed the great pecuniary advantages of recommending persons to fill the offices of Registrars; and he afterwards referred to the recent appointment of additional Judges in the Courts of Law, contending, as we understood, that the only new Judge necessary was for the Court of King's Bench. He justified the list of Commissioners to which the Noble and Learned Lord (Brougham) bad referred in the (eon mittnents they had made, and expressed his regret that other lists had not to a certain extent followed the same course. He then adverted to the subject of the retiring pension of the Lord Chancellor, and noticed what had been done upon the subject in the time of Lord Thurlow ; but we could not catch the particulars which the Noble and Learned Lord detailed to the House. We understood him to say that the patent office which Lord Thurlow enjoyed had been given him to make up for the smallness of his retiring pension. The truth was that the services of such a Judge could not be adequately compensated,' espe cially by mere wages; and it was not fit that after they quitted the Woolsack the Keepers of the Great Seal should he left in a state of eb stitution. Upon this point the Noble and Learner' Lord referred to the opi nions of Lord Soniets and Mr. Burke. He again enforced the necessity of patient inquiry by a Committee before such a Bill as the present was adopted or even entertained. It pro fessed to prevent uncertainty, expence, and delay, in the proceedings in bankruptcy, but from his experience he was satisfied that it would increase uncertainty, ac cumulate expence, and augment delay: He contended (if we heard correctly) that two of the Judges in Westminster Hall, recently appointed, and who already bad not suffisient business to occupy them, might be appointed to try issues from the Courts of Equity, which would render unnecessary part of the machinery of the Bill on the table, and would lead to results more satisfactory to the litigating parties. He felt convinced that the change was needless, or even a change were:required that now re commended from the Woolsack was not likely to be bene ficial. He repeated his conviction that if this Bill were carried into effect, the delay and the expence would both os to.. oessa 0000 ea looonotssa i —ood w le/emending who, the Noble and Learned Lord had said about patronage, he could not but think that the patronage of the Chancellor would be increased—at least it would be increased a t the present moment to a very great extent. There was another objection to the Bill. The persons to be appointed to these judicial offices in bankruptcy would all be barris ters. Now he thought that the distinction at present ex isting among the Commissioners ought to be maintained. and while be was in office he had always maintained it. He had always supplied the vacancy created in consequence of tl.e death or resignation of an attorney, by the appoint ment of an attorney ; and the death or resignation of a barris ter, by the appointment of a barrister. His reason fur doing so was this, that though a portion of the.office of Commis sioner of Bankrupt was judicial, yet a portion of it also was Ministerial, and required, therefore, the peculiar knowledge and practice of an attorney for i s proper dis charge. This Bill gave a preference to common lawyers, which he thought both unwise and improper. For the disharge of the duties of a Judge in bankruptcy, the equity barristers were fitted by the peculiar nature of their practice. The chief discussions in bankruptcy turned on matters of, equity, and of course those whose whole professional life had been directed to the consideration of such subjects were the more most fitted to decide upon them. Feeling as he did upon this subject, he thought that before their Lordships adapted any decisive measure, they ought to be well assured of the existence of the evil, and of the nature of the pro poved remedy ; and he, therefore, besought them not be in a hurry to pass this Bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he thought the Noble and Learned Lord was somewhat mistaken on the question of qualification for the office of a Judge in bank ruptcy. The Bill gave no preference to common lawyers over equity lawyers--and he must be a bad common law yer who was not fit to sit as a Judge in bankruptcy, for the common law was directly connected with nine-tenths of the matters that occurred in bankruptcy. The report was brought up, and the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on Thursday next. SPRING GUNS. The Earl of SHAFTERBURY brought up the report on this Bill; and moved that the House do agree to the amendments adopted in the Committee. Lord WYNFORD said that he found one of the clauses adopted in the Committee was, that any person should be at liberty to set spring-guns in his grounds upon obtaining the permission of one Magistrate. As a protection fur game, he must di.tinctly declare it as his opinion that spring guns ought never to be used ; but as a protection for property in barns, and stacks, and out-houses, liable to the worst of depredations, he thought they might be properly employed. lie believed that used in thLt manner they would not only be beneficial to the individual whose property they pro tected, but to the country at large ; anti that for such a purpose no one would object to their partial introduction. But if the object to be attained was the protection of pro perty, he thought it would be best effected by allowing the setting of spring-guns without an application even to one Magistrate, for such an application would of course direct attention to the applicant, and, the depredators would be forwarned. He suggested, therefore, that the amendment adopted last night in the Committee should be withdrawn. Viscount MELBOURNE observed that the use of these machines of di struction was to be avoided in all but cases of strong necessity. He thought tree prevention of the crime of incendiarism was a case of that sort, and he had therefore introduced this Bill ; but at the same time that he thus proposed to the Legislature again to make the use of spring-guns lawful, lie guarded the permission with as many cautions ,as possible. One of these cautions—that of making an application to two Magistrates, had been re moved last night, and he thought that their Lordships had, in that relyct, gone as far as was prudent or proper. He could not, therefore, consent to the sugg stion of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite. The report was received, and the Bill, as amended in Committee, agreed to. Adjourned at a Quarter to Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, SEPTEMBER 20. Sir J. NEWPORT rose to move that there be laid before the House an account of the sums raised and expended upon account of the church in the parish of St. George, in the county of Dublin, the amount of the outstanding debt, and the authority under which the various sums had been raised and expended, and the number of houses in the parish liable to pay the church rate. It appeared that many years ago the parish had agreed to build the church at an estimate of 15,5001,, of which 5,0001. was contributed by the Irish Parliament, and 5001. by the Board of First Fruits. By two subsequent Acts, viz. the 46th and filth of George HI., the church was placed in the hands of trustees, and now it appeared that this building, which bad originally been estimated to cost 15,5001., had cost nearly 100,0001., of which there was a debt of 24,0001. It was highly important that an account of the manner in which the building had been made to cost so much money should he laid before that House, mere particularly as it was under stood that last year a Qonmittec had been appointed to inquire into the subject, and they were prevented from fulfilling their duty by the refusal of the trustees to exhibit their books. As an instance' of the neces sity of an immediate inquiry, be need only say that he held in his hand a warrant of distress which the trus tees had recently issued against a poor widow with eleven children, for no less than twenty-one years' church-building rate.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. LEADER, in seconding the mot!on, said the pro duction of the returns would show the monstrous sys tem of parish jobbing in Ireland. He was extremely sorry to say, that if the inquiry were to be extended thoughout all the parishes in Ireland the same system would he found to prevail.—(Hear.) It was monstrous to learn that when the House had granted one million of money to build churches in Ireland, one church alone should be proved to have cost 100,0001. Mr. O'CONNELL was anxious to set himself right respecting what he bad said on a former night, and wl►ich bad found its wry to Dublin. He then expressed his conviction that not more than one year's Minister's money could be recovered by distress; hut lie had since disco vered that this parish was governed by a spedial Act of Parliament, which authorized the levying for any number of years, arid thus it was that this poor widow with her eleven children had been levied upon for twenty-one years' rates. He was convinced that this church would Wa rn-Itchy cost 100,000/, when it should only have cost the parish 11,000/. Mr. LE[ ROY reminded the House that the rates were made by an assessment of the parishioners themselves as sembled in vestry. After a few words from Mr. O'CONNELL and Sir JOHN NEWPORT, Mr. H. GRATTAN said he knew an instance of a per,on, who, after he hail been only a year in a house, without any previous knowledge of the ex istence of a rate, being ordered to pay immediately 13 years' building rate, for 1811 to 1824, amounting to 101. 10s. - That person presented a memorial to the Mar quis Wellesley, by whose secretary, Mr. Gregory, be was referred to a court of law for redress. Mr. SHAW said, all the circumstances detailed by the two Hon. and Learned Members (Mr. Grattan and Mr. O'Connell) proved rather that the trustees had been re miss in their duty in not levying the rates punctually and regularly. He undoubtedly agreed with them, that no such power as the levying for a number of ears at one time should be permitted ; but the circumstance of the widow with the eleven children proved that very great lenity had been shown to her.—The motion was then agreed to. • Mr. EWART presented a petition from Mr. Hugh James Sanderson, a merchant of Liverpool, complaining of a heavy loss %OIL!' he had experienced by the capture of his vessel. In 1826 Lis vessel was captured by the Brazilian squadron, and carried into the River Plate. Proceedings were taken before the Brazilian Authorities, and two decrees had been pronounced in his favour ; an appeal was then made io the Emperor, nho ordered the restoration of the vessel, and the payment to the petitioner of all the costs. The costs were but trifling, but in con sequence of the damage done to the vessel from lying so long in that quarter of the world she was rendered un seaworthy, and a loss was created to the petitioner amount. ing to 7,000/. The petitioner adverted to the measures taken by the American and French Governments to obtain compensation in all such cases for subjects of that country, as a contrast to the course pursued by the British Govern ment, and prayed an enquiry into his case with a view of affording bins relief. Mr. LITTLETON said some of his constituents bad been extensive sufferers in consequence of the conduct of the Brazili.in Government, and he trusted that his Ma jesty's Secretary for Foreign Affairs would see the urgent necessity, for the sake of justice, of enforcing those claims which the American and French Governments had already enforced in regard to their subjects. Mr. DIXON spoke to the same effect, and intimated his intention, if energetic measures were not adopted, to move an address on the subject on an early day. Mr. J. CAMPBELL brought in a Bill for establishing a general registry for the deposition of documents rela tive to real property. The 13i.1 having been read a first time, The }lox. MEMBER, in moving that it be read a second time on the 4th of October next, stated that the present Bill was substantially the same as that which he had in late Parliament. It waS. however, some. what simplified, and made shorter; so that he hoped it would meet the approbation of the House. Mr. O'CONNELL stated Irons practical knowledge his thorough conviction that a greater benefit could not he done to the country than by a general registry. The greatest objection to the Bill was the publicity it would give to the deposited documents. That was met however at once by the fact, that in Doctors' Commons a man of curiosity for a shilling might read all the wills that had been proved for the last 300 years. Oi all the prejudices there fore that had existed relative to the Registry 8.11, nuns were more delusive or unfounded than its publicity. • As a practising barrister, of many years standing, he was bound to declare, which he did conscientiously, that his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. J. Campbell) would con • fer a great benefit en the country if be succeeded . in this useful measure. He (Mr. O'Connell) had seen its itn portance and good effect in Ireltnd. Mr. STRiCKLAND- said if the Hon. Member for Kerry supported the Bill because he belonged to a county which had the benefit of a registry, he (Mr. S.) would oppose it because he belonged to a county which enjoyed also a similar benefit. The Yorkshire people had ex pressed no general dissatisfaction in consequence of the alleged imperfection of the registry there. In one of the ridings, indeed, the index was imperfect, but all the in dexes were not so, and active steps were now making, he believed, to remedy all existir s , imperfections; his doubt, however, was whether the Bill did not go too far. Mr. SLANEY supported the Bill, hoping that no petty objection would stand in the way of the discussion of a measure which would be of so much advantage to the community in gen , ral. Sir JOHN NEWPORT would give his hearty concur rence to the measure, and in doing so observed that many years ago a banker in London had told him that he had that day paid for an estate he had purchased for the third time, in consequence of the want of registration. Mr. PAGET supported the Bill. Mr. CRAMPTON considered the public registry of deeds of great importance, as those who had good titles ought not to be afraid of shelving their titles publicly. He considered the lion. Member who had introduced this measure a great benefactor to his country, and be should therefore give him his support. Mr. LANGSTON considered it his duty to give this measure his decided opposition, as the great body of his constituents were opposed to it. Mr. HUME was happy that the Hon. Member for Stafford had brought in this Bill, and be hoped every op portunity would be given to have its merits properly discussed. He could only attribute the opposition from the county of Somerset to the patties having no knowledge of the merits of the measure. He trusted the Hon. Mem ba (Mr. Campbell) would at every stage court opposition, that the arguments urged against it might be answered and refuted. Mr. SMITH supported the Bill, and trusted it would be persevered in. Mr. HUNT hoped the measure would be fairly discussed before it was carried into operation. After a few observations from Mr. SLANEY, in expla nation, Mr. CAMPBELL, and Mr. KNIGHT, The Bill was ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on the 4th of October next. Mr. MOSTYNpr;eatecrap;;itionfrom the Clergy, Magistrates, and inhabitants of Beaumaris, alluding to the loss of the Rothsny Castle steam-pachet, and praying for some legislative regulations respecting steam-vessels. Mr. HUME considered this not at all a subject for le. gislative interference and regulation, inasmuch as the sea worthiness of strain-vessels was a matter that ought rather to be personally inquired into by those whom pleasure or business induced to embark therein. .... Mr. F. BARING could not see how it was at all prac ticable for persons to know whether the passage-boats than latesoemiPeecilY' occurred, legislative regu were secure or not, and he did think it was a subj ec t which called loud for legislative interference and inspectio n . Mr. HODGES thought, from the repeated and m os t n m o e t l h a i n n e g h o c l o y u accidents r e that n h t a i n d g , of l a tions upon this subject. Mr. GRATTAN could state, from communications which be had held with an individual who had been on board the Rothsay Castle for four years, that during the whole of that time she bad been a condemned vessel. He recommended in all cases that a survey or examination of the sea-worthiness of the vessels should be made under legislative regulations. Alderman VENABLES hoped some measure preven tative of such accidents as had lately occurred, and satin_ factory to the public, would speedily be brought forward. Mr. C. WYNN ridiculed the i t idea. of legislative interference 0 in this i mportant matter. He had pe rused with as much distress and sympathy as any individual the painful records connected with the loss of the Rothsay Castle. It did not signify whether, as it had been stated by an Hon. Member, that vessel was or was not sea-worthy several years before, as she bad, it ap peared, under gone a repair which her owners considered sufficient. The melancholy catastroph e which had lately filled so many families with mourning, and excited universal sympathy, had proved that these men were mistaken in their opinion ; but still there could be no good security in cases of this sort, but that which was established by the in quiry of individuals themselves, as to the efficiency and sea-worthiness of the vessel in which they embarked. Mr. CAMPBELL agreed, that on such a subject as con veyance the public ought to be left to take care of them selves, and that the Legislature should not interfere in such matters. If it could be proved that the persons connected with this steam-packet knew she was unfit for performing such a voyage, they were liable to an indictment for manslaughter. Mr. WARBURTON considered it extremely injudi cious to appoint persons as supervisors over steam-boats, fur in that case there would be a hindrance to that species of improvement, and those persons would be appointed who would be pushing forward every new scheme of their own, the same as was done when the gas companit s were first established, and an inspector of them was appointed, who fur a few years received a salary of HU a year. Col. SIBI'UOItPE was surprised to heir the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Campbell) talk of preventing people taking away their own lives. Yet he was desirous that a Bill should pass to make people take care of _their own lives. He (Colonel Sibthorpe) should feel it to be his duty to move for leave to bring in a B 11 to answer the purposes prayed for by the petitionets. The petition was then read, and ordered to be referred to the Committee on Steam Navigation. THE DUCHESS OF KENT AND PRINCESS VICTORIA. On Mr. STaurr moving the Order of the :Day for resuming the debate on the third reading of the Reform Bill, Mr. HUNT rose, and stated it was well known that a great deal bad been said in the public newspapers re specting the non-attendance of the Ditchess of Kent and the Princess Victoria at the Coronation.—(This oc casioned some confusion and cries of Order.") The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member wa; at liberty' to ask a question, provided he did not in!ringe that privilege. Mr. HUNT said it had appeared in the public prints. (Here the Hon. Member was again interrupted.) lie sure), might say what the question was he was about to explain. The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member was not in order, for an explanation was unnecessary, as it might lead to a debate. Mr. HUNT said, be ready did not know what ques tion to ask.—(Loud and general laughter, which lasted at least some minutes.) With submission to the Speaker, he sincerely hoped to be allowed to state the facts, and then to ask the question. It had been stated in the public prints that the Duchess of Kent and the Princess Victoria did not attend the Coronation- Various reasons had been assigned, which had not only got into all the country papers, but also into the foreign pa pers. It was because he believed their Royal Hight', sses should be protected from such attacks that he now put this question, in order that his Majesty's Ministers might give an explanation that would be satisfactory to the country.—(Heie the Hon. Member made a pause, which occasioned laughter, and a cry of "What is the question ?") The question, said Mr. Hunt, is will the Ministers state the reason of the absence of their Royal Highnesses from the Coronation ? Lord ALTHORP said, that the facts of this case bad certainly been much misrepresented.—( Hear, hear.) The truth was that the Duchess of Kent, on being informed when the Coronation was to take place, stated to the King the reason which induced her to wish to be excused attending. Those reasons were satisfactory to the King, which was graciously signified to herßoyal Highness. The House would see it was not proper for bins to notice any thing which had appeared in the public prints, but what bad then appeared was not consistent with - the truth. Mr. CROKER felt great gratification at the explana tion of the Noble Lord. REFORM BILL. The adjourned debate upon the Reform Bill was then resumed. Mr. STRUTT rose—He should be unworthy of the station in which he was placed if he hesitated to express his opinion. Although the Bill might fill somewhat short of all that the most strenuous friends of Reform might wish. vet it contained so much of that which was desirable and necessary to form a good Government, that he hailed it with gratification.—(Cheers.) The question was whe ther the Members of that House were to be returned by the unanimous voice of the people, or whether the majority were to be composed of borough nominees ? --(Hear, hear. ) They might if they pleased call a new representation a virtual representation ; they, might, if they pleased, attempt to deceive themselves, but the time was now gone by when they could deceive and delude the public.—(Cheers.) He meant to cast no reflections on those who opposed the Bill, or who had created discus sions which partook of a personal character, for so far was he from thinking it discreditable to sit for a rotten borough, under the present system, that whenever a Member so returned performed his duty faithfully he was entitled to the gratitude of the public.—(Hear, hear.) But shat security had the public that the man who purchased his seat in that House would not neglect the interests of that public, of which he was falsely called the representative ? It might be said that those large towns to which Members were to he given, if not directly represented were virtually so, for that Members who bad a local knowledge of those places would advocate their interests. But he objected to leaving the interests of great towns to Members of other places, who merely chanced to be able to support their interests. It surely was not unreasonable that all large towns should have representatives of their own—(Hear, hear)—who should be responsible to their constituents. It had been said, that by the Reform Bill men of talent would not get into th e House, and that property would not be repre sented. Ile denied both those propositions. There never was a more unfounded proposition than that men of great talent would be excluded from the House for the people knew their interests well, and knew also that to forward those interests the surest mode would be by electing men of talent. Why should the proprietors of close boroughs arrogate to themselves the exclusive power of selecting men of talent for the House. The other argument to which he had alluded, as being used against the proposed plan of Reform was, that pro perty would not be properly represented in that House. He was not quite sure that he quite understood that ar gument. Was it mean*, or would it be contended, that the mere possession of property was to secure parties the privilege of having a share in the representation, or was it that the voter was to exercise his power according to the will of any man who had property. The voter, in his opinion, ought to be protected in the fair discharge of his duty. A challenge had been thrown out from the Oppo sition side, to any party to make out improprieties in the present system. That argument had been par ticularly used by the Hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Pem berton), who contended that the present system worked well, and that it was as near perfection as any human work could be. With deference to that Hon. Gentleman, he might c on t en d t h at t hi s was one of the principal points in dispute, and that the present Bill had been brought forward for the purpose of putting an end to misgovernment. One further topic more he must advert to, because he thought it im mediately connected with the question before the House, and th a t very l i ttle attention bad hitherto been paid to it. It must be acknowledged to be a most important part of the duty of all legislation to give the public proper means of education. Now, on this point the House had, most undoubtedly, invariably neglected to adopt any measures for the education of the people. Nay,it had done all it possibly could to prevent them enjoying those means of political knowledge which would have keen within their reach,by imposing enormous duties on Newspapers, fur the avowed purpose of keeping them from the sight of the lower and middle classes of so ciety. And now, when it was proposed by this measure to give some part of the legislation into their hands, the other side of the House turned round on them immediately, and said they were not fit to receive such a boon, because they were so ignorant. By this me ans th e A n ti-Reformers were making their own misdeeds the trains of retaining that - power which they now held. For his part, he believed the people were fully competent to exercise those rights which were to be given them by this Bill. If even they were not, he felt confident if they were only to he shewn that they poss esse d some share in the Government of the country, and that public measures of importance were waiting their decision, they would set manfully to work and conquer every difficulty. But as long as seats were to be purchased, or had a nomination tenure, it mattered not how ignorant the people were. If they voted for those who were over them, well and good. If they resisted, they were put put down by the strong anti of the law.— It had also been said that if political power were: conferred upon the people, they would give destruction c,f the two other branches of the ture. This argument was not new ; it I stated lit tie House in the year 1793, in La motion for Reform, and the answer given Mr. F.ix was, that if the King and — the Lords were not useful and necessary brancl Legislature, then they sLould Le dismissed and for the people were nit made for them, bu the petiole ; but if they were u , eful, then of Cnumi:ths, thus constituted, would preserve an both. The Hon. Member concluded by saying hi that the power now offered to the people by ti Bill would he exercised by them with discretion. Mr. BARING WALL said, there bad been mont aired in favour of the Bill per se. The opposite were called upon to support the Go' and therefore to support the B:II. Neither, hou supported because it was good, but because no hi was offered. --(Cheers. ) The Government app frightened with their own measure. They had as a principle, that population and property represented; and then denied representatives to C. _ _ gave them to Marylebone. lie did not think the Bil; a final settlement, and he could not believe that who looked at the returns on the table could for meat suppose that it would be a final settlement. Lord said he wanted it only to be final as lu people were saestied; but how long was that to what period were they to re•judge this Bill? Tb of stability and the evils of change had not been e duel: upon. The Noble Lard must not c a new C nstitution, but a ne.v moral world for in. He must make new interests new habits, to itifluences. The Government ought to conciliate th e " ferent confli c tin g i n t eres t s o f t h e c o un t r y ; it had 0 e excited and agitated the public.—(Cheers.) It W O great evil that the measure should be carried agains t feelings of the property of the country.--(A laugh.) 0 ; Government had sep ara t e d it s elf fr o m a ll the flo u t ! e i Reformers, who w i r e i n c ons e qu e n c e obliged to t" r f themselves itro the arms of the Tories. After the k was passed, the Government wool I be embarrass is present friends. It was painful to make personal t servations, but as it had been the fashion to analY r cqt, Opposition, he might analyze the majority. He therefore, be allowed to say, that, in analyzing the rite, round many gentlemen who had a persona l ' O4 rest in passing ti e Bill. Among those gentlemea.,o many Dissent rs, and h e might ref .r to them 1 01 : Ale t any imput itiun of illib era lity, for he had always var' ol ; Catholic em incipation and the repeal of the Te't o rt Corporation Acts. Among the Members opposite also s e ver a l gcn il emen h o ldi ng o ffi ce , w h ose interest ' xe r bound up with th e c ontin ua n c e of the Ministers in r and they had an interest in supporting them. !te ii would balance the boreughmon.ers, as they were l ite r on the opposite sid e o f tar, e against the dio e ar d and the dependents on the Government on the other' o r then Le thought the majority would not tower so lir j j el t ficently s h ove t h e m i nor i ty i n i n d epen d ence as it at PI p i ll appeared to do. The cry out of doors was, that 0 15 4 it would put an en d t o t h e A r i s t ocrac y ; lint, in fa ° c , would ere .te a n Oli garc h y , an d g i ve a l ega l existe°,o t , the very body w hi c h i t was sa id to b e t h e w i s h to rra ,o i 'The present a d vantage o f t h e A r i stocracy wa.i, that i t not conOned to any Cass, nor limited ; wealth, talent', hties, all made individuals members of the Aristor tt r ii,. He could h ave no h ope o f i n fl uenc i ng t h e 1 10 1 ° i t e of that House; he wished, therthre, to ad tress b l i e ! self to th e peop l e out o f d oors. When they ° e ft of the influence and corruption of the borough tent, the people s erred to forget that they theins e i ,i were the chief supporters of it. 'I he constituents live the Custom s and the Excise ; yes, the pure uncomr pf ing middle classes were those who profited by this car, r i p ti tion. The M em b ers o f P ar li ament an d some o f the ' ' bti tocracy might now an d t h en ma k e a fortune ; but if t examined the list or the placetnen and men who had to high office during the last century, they would find all sprung from the middle classes, and not men of a t . ;ti cratic blood. L et t h e H ouse l oo k at t h e t h ree enil r individu a l s w h o i n our t i me had b een or now were u Chancellors. 'They had all sprung front the peoples t' Hon. M e mb er a l so re f erre d to a li st o f the Attortaoe;, Generals during the last fifty y.ars to show that not one of them had b:en a meinuer of the aristocracy. the House look again at the church. The majority highest situations were filled by men sprung bog' middle cla s s e s. M uc h h a d b een sa il i n t h e cou rse °' debates about the number of great - names which O le I.e f o und as t h e supporters of the B i ll ; and, among °tli ( it was observed, that bad Mr. Canning lived, be , would have seen the necessity of giving way W i ,l altered circumstances of the time. In his (Mr. I S ~ opinion, Canning would h ave seen a ddi t i ona l ft:a,' to persevere in his oriainal principles; and he magi serve, it was much easier to say that Mr. Canning have been a convert to the new light, than to believe i j (Hear, bear.) H ow did t h e authorities in other o'9 sand in favour of the Bill? He would say that they/.writer in favour of th e Bill ti as t h e Edi tor o f t h e , and that the best speaker ire support of it had bead Member for Caine (Mr. Macauley), who had appli&O arguments solely to the effects whieh the measure . likely to produce in the event of its passing into e t ea' The only authority, s t r i c tly spea ki ng , i n f avou r etd change, among tho s e w h o pro fe sse d to b e we ll ve ll the history o f th e C onst i tut i on , was the Hon. and Lel d o Metnb..r for Knaresberaugh (S r Lints Mackintosh)) o d it was well known to every one in that House, ‘c,/ h i t. (Hear, voted for eith e r s id e if c i rcumstances requ i re d 0 1 :40 (Hear, bear, and a laugh.) Looking to others ,) were not Members of that House, he fund that Constitutional writer (Mr. Hallam) the most eini o o man in Engl an d iu that peculiar br a n c h o f liters!, decidedly oppo-ed to the Bill—( Hear, hear)-- 41 / Mr. Polgrave, the m os t di st i ngu i s h e d antiquarian, bloV pressed, in a manner strong b ut pecul i ar, h i s sense "e#,) danger with w..icir it threatened us.—(Hear, Looking, indeed, at the Bill itself, and the cireuinst 3 A l under which they were called on to consent to such 3 constitutional ch ange , h e must say t h at i t was the WV leap in th e d ar k ever token by the people of any of which history hears record.—(Cheers.) After ()W o ol ing that the liberal and tolightened of other coup 01 viewed th e Bill w i t h as much apprehension as those 0110) some class in this country, the Hon. Member said he converstd with m an y A mer i cans, and they all, i nc lo7 that distin g ui s h e d man, whose retirement from a (05, =tie situation was so great a loss to his country Washington Irving,) agreed in considering that the me.) now before the H ouse wou ld b e i n j ur i ous to the l ib e rbv England. Mr. VILLIERS (Member fur Saltssh) said there °l l i one cr two p arts o f t h e B i ll to wh i ch he felt WO" It ante his objections, although he was quite prernd , support th e p r i nc i p l es on which the measure was fa. , re In the first place, he objected to the wording of the 11 0 Y amble, in which it was declared to be " expedient to ~of effectual measu res f or correcting divers abuses that IV long prevail e d i n t h e c h o i ce of Members to serve i n liament." Now, he doubted very much the proprietf o ia adopting langua ge l i k e t hi s, w hi ch went to convey the if pression that Parliament had before been illegally an d c yl properly constituted, and that they had, therefore, en a t lit laws not entitled to the respect or obedience 01 , 1 0 , people.--(Hear, hear, and c h eers .) Al rea dy there . 7;,, outcries against the laws—already there was a digro. Con to change all existing institutions, and to make.i pediency a substitut e for all that time had sanet sopt of and experience proved to b e necessary; an d were now, by their own a ct, t o g i ve a sanct i on an d au thorp/o those who proposed to question the legality of all cooled and the force of all legislative enactments ?—(Hear, be be If the peop'e were to he stirred up by inflammatorYos rangues, and the m ilit ary appea l e d to as ar bi ters bet them and th e L eg i s l ature, then he was willing to bra ve h is o l) - danger rather th an to su b m i t to t h e consequences 111)0 must result from such a dictation.—(Hear, hear.) t io trusted, however, although be mad e th es e o bjections to t hs preamble, he would not be consider e d an opponent Os, greater part of the clauses, of which he cordially aPP r . ° O O —(Hear, and laughter.) He must say, however, he 0 1 ') to the cla use for dividing the counties. He was Dol t afraid that t h e M em b ers f or the d i v i ded count i es w ° o ) like those of Manchester and Birmingham, be too toes under de mocrat i c i n fl uence, w hil e, at t h e sa me their votes would be peculiarly mischievous, b e eauselio approbation to any m easure wou ld b e c i te d as a proot i ; o h was supported by the landed interest. This On l id he the case in some instances, while in others they wen id, come the mere nominees of the aristocracy, and L112 11 _0 4 , treated in the same mann e r by th e P ress as it notetn,p) the representatives for the close boroughs.--(Hear , Fortunately this was not the only legislative boll,' i hire country.—( Hear, hear.) There was another before these questions would he fully considered.—(Cheer e4 .l Mr. LABOUCHERE, a ft er remar ki ng o n the :f o e rent inconsistency betw een t h e speec h o f t h e Hon• bee who preceded him, and the vote he intended W s ; O A on the Bill, observed, th a t a l t h oug h h e was no t so: 0 0 to hope to say anythi ng new on t h e su bj ect , yet 11 o pt? not allow that st age t o pass w i t h out recor di ng bis a'o9o:, nation of the me asure t h en b e f ore t h e House. TPen Member for Weymouth (Mr. B. Wall) had made .e speech, which was the more valuable, because he W I bit it spoke that Hon. Member's real eonv ictione di there was this f a ll acy i n i t , an d i n t h e speeches 01.000 Members of th a t s id e o f t h e H ouse , t h a t th e y did WA MI till er eu the I bran;