The Sun. — London, England, 1856-02-08 00:00:00

house to refer the patent to tti committee of privileges in terms that actually prejudged the whole questien. (Hear.) Thus it should be remembered that a committee of privi leges was a committee of tit, whole house, and there was no greater opportunity afforied in such a committee for deliberation than in the home. itself. In a committee of privileges discussion would bo impossible. The noble lord who advocated that course no doubt had resolutim a pre- Pared. He (Earl Grey) should like to see those resolu tions in the first instance. He was most anxious to pre serve the dignity of the house ; and, in the present aspect of public affairs, it was more than ever important that the house should preserve its position in the estima tion of the country. The noble and learned lord bad de clined to give them any intimation as to the course he Meant to follow, and therefore left the house nothing, for it but to conjecture what that course might be. If the Committee of privileges decided against the patent, would the house refuse to administer the oaths? Lord CAMPBELL—Most certainly. If the committee of privileges decided against tho patent the house would be. bound to refuse the oaths. Earl GREY could not help thinking that their lordships would be placing themselves in a false position before the country if, on such nice distinctions as they had heard, they were to refuse the writ of summons to Lord Wensley dale. The house might refuse, and the claim be carried to the courts of law; and be there decided ie the affirma tive. Would not the house then be in collision with the judges of the land ? Or if it went to the Howie of Com mons, would it be prudent for their lordships' house to Place itself in collision at once with the Crown and the other House of Parliament? He a.lvised the house before they took any steps that might lead to seriousconsequences to refer the question to a select committee of their lord ships' house, and not to accede to the motion of the noble and learned lord. He was not going to give an opinion then as to the expediency of granting life peerages, or as to Whether Government had chosen the proper moment for raising the question, but this he did sty, that whatever Might ultimately be their decision, it was not a question Which should be referred to a committee of privileges. The Earl of DERBY then rose— My Lords (said the noble earl), exhausted as the subject has been, and ex hausted as your lordships are at this late hour (half -past 12 ), I shall not attempt to wimpy your lordships at any great length, as I am sure I can add nothing to the arguments which have been urged. But I could not recon cile it ti myself to give a silent vote on a question which involves an organic, change of a most important nature in the British constitution. (Loud cries of hear.) My lords, I cannot ieconcile myself to this, having the honour of being here the organ of the great Conservative party, which never more fitly discharges its high duties than when it defends the rights of the constitution against violent en croachment, whether from the Crown or the people. (Hear.) I cannot, my lords, permit mytelf to remain silent, feeling as / do a deep interest in the question, having myself the honour of being the 14th rei resentative of an hereditary earldom in this house—of a family which for 400 years has by hereditary succession had representatives in Parliament, When I find that the privileges of this house are attacked by en exercise of the prerogative for which the faintest shadow of a precedent must be sought for at a period antecedent to that at which the earliest of my ancestors had the honour of a seat in this house—(hear, hear)—and when I say the "prerogative of the Crown," I entreat your lordships to consider what is really meant by the " prerogative" in these days, (Hear.) We live, my lords, not in times when the Rouses of Lords and Commons have to protect themselves against the capricious' and violent personal encroachments of the Sovereign. Those times are long since past and gene. But the prerogative, being the power of doing that which is not contrary to, or not forbidden by, or isl:nide. the law, that is a power not vested in the person who wears the crown, but it is vested in the responsible advisers of the Crown ; and consequently, in fact, the extent of the " pre rogative" is the extent of the irrespoasibility of the advisers of the Crown. (Hear.) Therefore on every ground we are bound to see that the prerogative not only is not car lied to an illegal but to an unconstitutional extent. (Rear.) But, my lords, we are met at the outset by a most strange objection on the part of the noble and learned lord on the Woolsack—an objection which, it it is to prevail, will effec tually prevent your lordships from discussing the question. The noble lord says, paying a deserved coteplitnent to the abilities and learning of Baron Parke, that he thought this t Most favourable opportunity for trying the ; question. For trying what question ? The cenestion of the power of the Crown to grant is patent, of peeinge limited to life ? Row is it to be tried ? When your lot dships propose to Proceed to try it the noble and leareed lord turns round , Pon you, and says, you have nothing to do with the ques tion, and cannot try it—(hear) —that you cannot deal with '„,te—that you cannot even inquire into it ! (Hear, hear.) , e - that areument has been repeated by the noble earl (Earl Grey) who has just sat down, who said—supposing the Patent mere waste paper, and that the learned baron- ap• Plied to take his seat under tho writ of summons alone, 'w,,, y otild our lordships (he asked) dispute the right of the :rown to issue summons ? Why, no, say lords. We admit Zue Power of the Crown to issue such a writ. (Hear.) But the writ to operate for life, or with remainder? The noble earl says we may argue the question, but this is not the tim e t o d o so; th a t th e ti me to argue it is when the earned baron under the writ has eat during his life, and when his daughter's son claims the succession. Then we are to argue the question whether the learned baron should (ever have been allowed to sit at all ?" That certainly would be a strange mode of proceeding. (Hear, hear.) My lords, I rath er a d op t the argument of the Lord Chief Justice of t he Queen's Bench : that if the patent had never beets Placed before es there would have been a clear right in the Crown to summons the learned baron to this house. Lord BROUGHAM—Thet would have operated as a creation of an hereditary peerage. ee T he Earl of DERBY— It has been held at all times that rermiloning a person to nithis house creates a peerage with inneritan ce . But wh he learned baron appears at the table with a patent from the Crown, creating a peerage ex- Pressly for life, and upon that patent presents a writ—the Patent and the writ are to be considered as one instrument — (hear, hear)—and either the patent is void (and the writ With it), or it must be in the power of the Crown to create peerage for life, which we say is unconstitutional. Then What is the time at which we can ever consider the validity of such a patent ? We must surely discuss it at the time When it is first attempted to act upon the patent, or else for ever after we must holdour peace. (Hear, hear.) But, wy lords, of all the extraordinary arguments ever urged, the most extraordinary is that which has been urged to-night by the noble earl (Earl Grey), who says—dittering alto gether from the noble and learned - lord on the woolsack, who tells y ou r lordships that it is no - business of yours at all that we have a right to inquire; and, indeed, for what Possible purpose can the patent be presented to your lord shipe if it is not to be inquired into ? But says the noble e arl, what a hasty course of procedure is this ! What pre- Cipitate resolutions you are to be supposed to be about to a dopt in referring the question to a committee of privi lege, ! " I confess," says the noble earl, "that there is a great deal to be said against the constitutional character of the act ; I know that many arguments may be urged against peerages for life. I think the Government have not take n the most convenient mode of raising the ques tion ; but do not refer it to the committee of privileges, , c onveying a preconceived impression that the patent is not 'add, uch a course is precipitate." My lords, Ido not know that it is so precipitate as the course which the noble and learned lord on the woolsack recommended, who said that if your lordships doubted the legality of the Patent the proper course would be to pass a resolution de claring its illegality. My lords, of the two courses I think you have taken the mre moderate course • because, cer tainly, if you wer e to` declare the patent illegal, and that Under it Baron Parke would have no' right to take his seat, the noble aed learned lord would have denounced it as a monstrous proceeding, without inquiry, without exa mination of documents, without consideration of prece dents, to pass a resolution declaring the illegality of the Patent. (Hear, hear.) My lords, I rather desire to have the question fairly considered and argued at the bar by ceteasel, bringing to bear on it the highest degr ee of 1 gal learniug, and sifting the subject thoroughly, before , this house pronounces a decision upon it. But the noble earl (Rail Grey) having, to my extreme surprise, con demned this course as " precipitate," what was the course which he was prepared to recommend ? To refer the ques tion to a select committee ! My lords, all I can say upon that, is that as the roblO lord moving the committee Would regularly have the right of nominating it, such a come t s would scarcely be so respectful to the Crown and certainly not so much in accordance with precedent and authority as that which is now proposal, t refer it to the committee of privileges. There have been analogous cases iu which reference has been - made to the committee of privileges. In the reign of Charles 1., in the year 1627, a Patent a precedence was given to a certain earl, and this house refused to acknowledge it, and referred it to a com enittee of privileges. We have here a patent which we be lieve to be unconstitutional; we do not call upon your lordships at once to 1 - Renounce it so; but we say, do not recognise it as legal until it is inquired into. My lords, having listened to the arguments and precedents which have beeu adduced, I have come clearly to tho conclusion that if there be one case, there certainly is not more than ( le, in which the Crown has granted a peerage for life, to e• party who has ever ever sat and voted in this house, un less the patent had the previous assent of Parliament. A rid, my lords, I have no respect for precedents as to prerogative going further back than the revolution of 1688. And I confess that I should net have thought any reference to Such precedents very consonant with the spirit or the prin ciples of a Whig Administration. (Hear, hear.) If, my lords, we areedhaling with a question of a prerogative of the Crowe, which has never been attempted by any minis ter under the House of Hanover—which was never ventured upon by any Sovereign of the House of Stuart, or under the unscrupulous rule of the Tudors—if you have to go back to the times of the Plantagenets for precedents, nay lords, instead of one precedent you could produce a dozen precedents of such a period—they would not be worth waste paper. (Loud cheers.) I hold, my lords, that a lthough the right to • create peerages for life may, 200 Years ago, have been within the scope of the law and the prerogative of the Crown, yet that it is at variance with the whole practice of our form of Government, and uncoil etitntional in its bearing upon the character of this house. I am prepared to lay it down as a proposition which is i ncontrovertible, that from the earliest period the very essence of the peerage has been that it should be here ditary. (Hear,. hear.) I do not mean to say that in the early days of our history that principle was always kept closely in view ; but this I contend for, that originally the great barons of the realm, holding their privileges by tenu re of land, enjoyed the right of hereditary succession, and were in consequence of their tenure entitled to sit in Parliament. The issue of writs summoning the barons to their seats in the 'legislature first became necessary in the reign of Henry 111., immediately after the battle of Eves ham, by which the Crown, after a long series of civil wars, succ e eded in crushing the rebellion of the barons. At the period of which I speak the necessity of attending in Par liament was felt to be an onerous burden, and not a priei lege ; and the indifference felt by the barons with respect to receiving the writ renders any precedents which may be drawn from their times unworthy of practical considera tion in dealing - with the question under your lordships' notice. But, in after tithes, when the constitution began to be better understood, what was the rule of law laid down upon the subject of those writs? Why, that not withstanding the absence of all words conveying an inheri tance ih the body of the,writ, the fact of satins , in Parlia ment under the writ conferred an inalienable right of sitting in Parliament by inheritance. The Crown took upon itself to issue patents limiting and altering the cha racter of the inheritance; but, I believe, that in every in stance in which a p a tent,so operated it did no t procee d ?rem the C rown a l one , b u t the Crown acting under the advice and sanction of Parliament—(hear hear) —and that the Cr ow n, with" the assent of Parliament, could do this of c ourse no h uman being will venture t o deny. In the celebrated case of the peerage of the Duke °I . Cornwall, which was settled in it manner opposed to coned opular, greater in the ;ive in a ct of pro• ion of THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING FEBRUARY 8. 1856. they did it without inquiry, and after the Lord Chief Jretice of England had declared that it was not legal. Their lordships then divided. Contents—Present......... . ..... . Proxies Non-oontents—Pre.ent Proxies he would have given them his support. He enumerated some of the expenses of the ecclesiastical courts, which were drawn of ten from poor families, widows, and orphans. It was a duty the Government owed the country to re lieve them from those harpies, and allow them to prove their wills without trouble and at a trifling expense. On the SPEAKER putting the question, and some re marks by several hon. member=, leave was given to bring iu the bill. 59-138 53 52-105 Majority 33 Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter to three o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YEsTE4DAY.) The SPEAKEIi took the chair at the usual 'hour. NEW MEMBER. Mr. BAINES took the oaths and hi; seatfor Leeds. FIRST READINGS. The following bills were severally read a first time : Forest of Dean Central Railway, Wandsworth and Put ney Gas, Poole Railway, Bawtrey Roads, London, Til bury, and Southend Railway (Extension), Bagnalstone Railway, Dawesbury Water, Cork Bridges, and Perth Harbour. Mr. SPOONER presented petitions for the repeal of the Maynooth grant. Mr. HADFIELD presented a petition from the clergy of Sheffield against the opening of the Crystal Palace on Sundays. THE - RIVER, WEAVER. Mr. THORNELY moved for an account showing the amount due for principal debt and interest on the River Weaver on the sth of April, 1844, with an account of the annual receipts and expenditure in each year, and to the latest date; distinguishing the amount annually received for tonnage from other incidental sources of in come and from money borrowed ; also distinguishing the annual expenditure for ordinary maintenance and repairs from the expenditure on account of debt and interest, the purchase of land, and erection of churches thereon and endowing the same, or other like incidental expenses, and from the amount annually paid over for the use of the county of Chester (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 115, of Session 1844).—Agreed to. Mr. V. SCULLY moved that the Treasury minute made with a view to improve the postal and passenger communication between England and Ireland, under the act of last session, be laid on the table of the House.— Agreed to. Mr. PHELLIMORE gave notice, that on an early day he should call the attention of the house to the in justice of a , sessing the clergy to parochial rates. Mr. MUNTZ said that ou Thursday next he should call the attention cf the house to the present monetary system of the country with a view to a remedy more in conformity with the present time. Mr. LAYARD gave notice that on that day fortnight he should n•all the attention of the house to the report of Sir J. M'Neill and Colonel Tulloch relative to the army in the Crimea during last year. Major REED gave notice that on an early day he should move that the franchise be extended to all who were a,ENegsed to the income tax, not being aliens. Mr. WISE gave notice of his intention to move, on the 14 of February, for an inquiry into the consular establishments abroad. Mr. ADDERLEY asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why there had been no report made by the InSpector of Prisons in the Home district for five years past ; and when any report, such as the act requires annually, was likely to be made by that in spector ? Sir G. GREY said there were a number of those reports in arrear, and he had written to Captain Wil liams on the subject. Ha had taken measures to have those reports made more regularly for the future. SUPPLIES TO THE_ ARMY. Sir J. FERGUSON said the report of the Commis sion of' Inquiry into the Supplies of the British Army in the Crimea having appeared, he wished to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to make any change in the direction of that department ; and whe ther it was their intention to place that department of a n army in the field under the charge of a superior mili tary officer, as recommended by the said commission ? Mr. F. PEEL, the suggestion of the hon. member is a very valuable one, but it has not yet been determined to act on it. Mr. MAGUIRE asked whether it was the intention of Government to introduce a bill in the present session for the better regulation of the Medical Charities of Ireland ? Sir G. GREY said it V 7,13 not the intention of Go vernment to introduce any bill on the mild ict this seEsion. COR,RUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS. Mr. 11. BERKELEY said be wished to ask, seeing that the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act expires this session, and that a strong and genera! opinion prevails as to its inefficiency, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to bring in a bill to renew that act, or to submit iti operation to the inquiry of a select committee ? Lord PALMERSTON Paid it bad not been deter mined by the Government whether they should bring in a bill to continue the act or refer the subject to a select committee. When it had been determined what course should be pursued the how.: would be informed on the subject. MR. CURTIS. Mr. H. BAILLIE asked the First Lord of the Trea sury whether he had any objection to lay on the table of the house the correspondence which had taken place with the Prussian Government relative to the employ ment of agents for the enlistment of troops, and in re ference to the arre4 of her Majesty's consul at Cologne upon the charge of being engaged in such proceedings ? Also, any communications which may have been made by the authorities of the Hance Towns with reference to the subj,ct of en , istment ? Lord PALMERSTON had great objection to pro duce the correspondence allucled to. The transaction had been amicably settled ; and the correspondence. if it were produced, could lead to no good results. With respect to the second question, the Government had no correspondence to produce. COMMUNICATION WITH IRELAND, Mr. CAIRNS asked the Secretary of the Treasury whether, in the contemplated postal arrangements with Ireland, the Treasury had considered the requires ents of trade in the provinces as well as in Dublin ; and whether any communications on the subject had been made to any of the Chambers of Commerce except that of Dublin, or whether any such communication would be made before any tender was accepted I Mr. WILSON said communications with the Cham ber of Commerce of Ireland had taken place, and the best attention would be given to the subject as regarded the provinces. Mr. CAIRNS asked the Solicitor-General for Ireland whether a bill - to amend the law of bankruptcy in Ire land would be introduced by Government, and when 1 Mr. lIORSMAN would next week lay a bill on the table relating to that subject. or 30 years in the service before they 'attained that rank, if they were ever permitted to attain it all. (Hear, hear.) .Ho had heard with pleasure that these monstrous abuses were at length attracting the attention of the Admiralty, as they had long since excited the indignation of the public, and that a proposition for the benefit of old officers of ,every rank was under consideration. He hoped that this measure of reform, which, be had no doubt, had been conceived in a benevo- lent spirit, would also be carried outin an efficacious manner, and that no officer would'be permitted to remain upon that active list who was not ready to serve his country. (Hear.) Nor was it the officers only who had now to complain of the neglect and ill-treatment. The seamen also had their griev ances, and these were of no trivial character. During the last war, even when the service wa s (..iisgraced by " impress ment," a practice which hail now' .happily disappeared, bounty money was freely given to seamen joining the navy. We were again at war; but no such inducement was now offered. When the Baltic fleet first weighed anchor it might have! been able to cope with the Russian, but most certainly it was not competent to meet on equal terms the navies France or of America. (Hear, hear.) Of this he was assured by naval men of the highest autho rity, and among others by an officer en the flag list, who told him that had the command been offered to him he should have declined it through fear of loosing his reputation. On board that fleet there was " lubbers," dockyard-riggers, a fen , revenue servants, and some Coast Guardsmen, whose presence there had injured one service without . benefitting the other. There were landsmen, too, whom the Admiralty fondly imagined they could convert into skilful mariners in a single year. He wished the First Lord of the Admiralty would go to sea for a year, if only to discover how little of a seaman he would be at the end of that period. (Hear.) It was merchant seamen that were required to man her j.:sty's fleets. To such he would offer a liberal bounty ; but he would not give sixpence for a landsman, for the true qualities of a seaman were only to be acqnired iu youth. Let us retrace our steps—do justice to the navy, or we should rue the day when another war might come with a morn active naval Power than Russia. As to Russia as a naval Power, she was not to be compared with other countries which might be our enemies. If her fleet in the Baltic, where we last year had 100 penants waving over steamers, had ventured to come out, we should have blown her ships to atoms; tut if, unhappily, we should be at war with America, who had t ome 20,u00 English seamen in her ser vice, what steps must we take to get. them back ? Sailors did not willingly turn their backs upon thchr country; but their very calling gave them general ideas of nationality, which illiberality on our part would convert to our preju dice. In the last American war it was notorious that many British seamen fought against their own flag, and yet we took no steps to prevent a recurrence of such lamentable conduct. It must be remembered that, although the United States was comparatively unpre pared for naval war at prasent, „seeing how rapidly we had constructed a fleet of gun-boats, it could not be doubted but that in two years' time she could produce a most formid able fleet. During Lord Derby's Government a commission was appointed to inquire into the subject of manning the navy, which even in time of peace recommended a small bounty to bo given, but no attention •had been paid to the -suggestion. He charged advisedly the late First Lord of the Admiralty with an act of injustice and want of judgment in not baying at the beginning of the present war procured good seamen, as he might by the offer of a small bounty such as was given to soldiers. He thought, too, that an endeavour should be made, when once we had good seamen, to retain them in the service by giving a small additional premium of, say 1/. a year for each year beyond a certain number. That plan of progressive pay Was adopted in the civil service, and there was no reason why it should not be acted upon in the naval and military services. Then, again, although the allot ment of prize money had been lately altered, tie thought it might be still more extended in the seaman's favour. With regard to punishments, without discussing the propriety or necessity of flogging seamen, he was clearly of opinion that no lash ought ever to fall on the back of a petty officer, and, unless for mutiny or some other grievous offence, no A.B. should be flogged. Then, again the articles of war were con tinually read on board ship, and although they were not acted upon in all eases, yet were sufficiently alarming to sea men who heard the penalty of death awarded to one-half the offences mentioned in them. He would suggest that an altera tion should be made iu that respect, and that the penalty of death shOulff only be attached to those more serious offeace3 for which alone it was now inflicted. He was sorry lie was not able to read to the house the articles of war, and the naval instructions, but he had applied for the latter to the Secre tary of the Admiralty, who, no doubt; acting upon the direc tions of his superiors, had refused to .supply him (Captain Scobell), a naval officer and a member of the house, with a copy. lie could not think that was a proper way for the busi ness of the country to be carried on. The Admiralty was a despotic government . In despotism Russia could scarcely equal it. He knew it well. A naval man must mind what be wrote and what he said. He could not give au open opinion upon atippen question. It was a harsh government, and all naval men felt its harshness at some period of their service. (Hear.) He knew nothing himself of the last three First Lords of the Admiralty, but the only man who ever received him kindly was the late Duke of Clarence (William IV). his Royal Highness was a naval man, entered into naval feelings, knew something of the service, and, if he dismissed au appli 'ant without granting his request, at all events he received . . . . him kindly and feelingly as an officer and a gentleman. He (Capt. Scobell) had nothing to reap frkan this motion. He was a retired officer, and could get nothing by it. But his strong est feelings were bound.up iu the welfare of the navy and the advancement of his brother officers and brother seamen. if there were not sufficient grouuds for inquiry so much the better for the authorities; but they knew that, if the com mittee were granted, officers would come forward and give evidence of the harshness and coldness exhibited by the Ad mu•alty towards the great body of naval officers for a very long period. He did not blame the men, who met in Cabi act Councils and exchanged favours, the East against the \Vest Indies, the Customs against the Army and Navy, but he was convinced the soonm the system was destroyed the better for our country and our countrymen. Before they negatived this motion, they would, he trusted, take it into their most serious consideration. The civil service and the army had received abundant attention. The navy had been passed over ; yet, if we were involved in a war with a naval Country, and did not maintain our supremacy of the ocean, the glory of Eng land would have passed away, and all - the armies of the world could not restore it. With these observations he committed the case of the navy to the hands of the House of Commons, with the hope that they would do itjustie3. became impossible to give employment to any but a fe v of those officers'. At the end of 1817, the number of commanders were 800, but the number in actual ser vice was no more than 40. With regard to the number of lieutenants immediately aler the close of the last war, he begged to observe, that so great A.As the number of those that were not in actual service, that the last on the list would be . 82 ye 're of age before they could be employed, assuming that they were 25 years old when promoted. When the hon. and gallant gentleman contended that a largo class of officers to whom he had referred ought to he employed, he (Sir Charles Wood) must say that the idea was preposterous. The services of those hon. and gallant officers were not, in fact, wanted, and ships to employ them in were not wanted. Such was the reduction of the force within the last quarter of a century. There was no denying the fact, as his lion, and gallant friend had stated, that the number of old officers on the list of lieutenants and commanders was very great ; hut, with regard to the vast prop wtioa of them, it would bo quite impossible to employ them ; and, with regard to the number of old officers, it would be quite impossible to give them em ployment. When his lion and gallant friend said that there was no promotion given to officers of the late war, in pro portion to their claims, let him state to the house that, in the fifteen years after the last war, the officers in the service were promoted just as they would have been on the war establishment. Now, let them look to the state of the list, as it stood fifteen years after the war. In the year 1830 there were 850 post-captains and lieutenants on the list, and there were no means of employment for more than 50 of them; and there were 800 contains, for whom there were no means of employment in tile service. The number of officers kept up, however, at that period was as arge in pro portion as if the country was at war ; and the number of officers employed, it should be borne in mind, ought always to bear a lair proportion to the demand for their services, Aud if they were to take the number of officers on the list at the present moment, they would find that of 99 admirals, there were only 18 employed; that of '396 captains, 140 were only employed ; that of 569 commanders in the service, 200 only were employed; and that of 1,200 lieu tenants, there but 900 employed ; and taking any time, ex cept the time of war, the number employed would be more than ample for any force that the country could. require. Within the last few years the inUmber of captains employed varied from 60 to 80. He might now state, in reference to the claims and opportunities for promotion, that they had lot been met so much by actual employment as lay a disposi tion to confer just rewards. The hon. and gallant officer, however, said that thp promotions that had taken place were partial and unjust. (Hear.) Now, if they admAtel the principle of " selection," he (lid not think that they could, on that ground, say the promotions were governed by partiality. If they would confine the question to promotions by seniority how few young officers could they employ Taking promo tions by selection, they would, in all probabilit y, b y that process, get the best possible officers. He did not stand up for selection ; but they must have a rule. Of course such a mode was open to the charge of partiality—(hear) and such a charge as that might be readily made, and not easily passed over. He, however, defied the whole of the s ervice not to be open to it. He had now more experience in th, duties and working of his department than ho bad last year ; and he could scarcely say how many applications he might have had made to him for one appointment. He, of course, selected a man. His hon. and gallant frien&on his right might take one man for the appointment, and he, of course, could not complain of the selection. His hon. friend on his left might select another man, and he could not complain of it. But when he reflected, he must be allowed the right of selection as to who might be the most desirable and fit officer for the duties of the appointment. His honourable and gallant friend said that they had a long list of old admirals in the service, and that there were very few young admirals. That was very true. The list was gradually increasing ; but let them observe that they could not possibly have yo mg admirals unless they promoted young commanders and young lieutenants. If they promoted young lieutenants by seniority, they could not have young admirals. The hon. an I gallant officer said that the Admiralty were chargeable.-with the exercise of political patronage. He could safely say, that in no promotion or appointment which he had made, had he been in the slightest influenced by partiality, or by any influ ence of political patronage. Since he had been at the head of the Admiralty he had not promoted more than ten officers to captaincies ; and he now further asserted, that she° he bad come to the Admiralty, be had not mall a single ap pointment or promoted a single officer unless on the recom- mendation of the NaVal Lords of the Admiralty. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that promotions were given more by aristo cratic influence than upon grounds of merit ; but that mall!, was not se, and upon inquiry it would b; found that there was no just ground for such a charge. • It had been said that Lord Pundonald, LOrd Cadogan, and Lord Anion were ne glected officers ; but that was not so. About those hon, and gallant officers' ability there could be no question ; bat there were other considerations, and those were as to the general efficiency of officers, for the duties of command. He must say, that he knew not of any duty which the officers ap pointed in the Crimean war had to discharge that they hail not performed in a most efficient, a most gallant, and distin guished manner. (Hear.) Unfortunately, they had not ships to contend with, .Ent take the officers from Sir Ed. Lyons, who was the soul of the expedition, to Captain Lyons, in the Sea of Azotf, that there was nothing that they had been ap pointed to do than they had not performed in the most gal- lantland brilliant inanuer. And he Mast say that it was highly to the credit of the right lion. bart., Sir J. Graham, who preceded him at the Admiralty, that the appointments and arrangements he had made were, in all respects, most satisfactory, and had redounded to the honour and credit of the country, and the glory of the British navy. (Hear, hear.) He would, with the permission of the house, follow the hon. and gallant gentleman through the different ranks of the ser vice as ho had gone through them, with resp►ct to pay and promotion. The committeo-recouamended that there should be a permanent number of officers of each rank, which should not be exceeded, but there were some, such as Lord Dun douald, whom he would be sorry to see removed from the ac tive service list, although he was above the age which the hon. and gallant officer had named. Even iu the time of war we do not employ more than 18 admirals; and he did not think the number was too largo. Looking at the captains, he did not think :350 was too small a - number. By increas ing the number of persons whom it was impossible to employ, they were only increasing the number of complaints and heart-burnings. The larger the number of persons front whom they had to make selection, the greater the discontent and, therefore, ho thought that the recommendation of the committee or 1818 was exceedingly wise, that the lists should Admiral WALCOTT seconded the motion, observing that the be limited, and that there should not be too many on the ac tive list. He confessed that he knew of no better test than army, the Ordnance, the Commissariat, and the civil service non-employment ; for, although a man must learn his profes had been subjected to the censorship of admini itrative re- sion in early life, he did not think that an officer who had form, and he saw no reason why the navy should form au been serving as captain should be placed precisely on, the exception. He concurred, speaking generally, in all the same footing as one who had not so served. A man to be a views and opinions which the honourable and gallant gen- au admiral ought to have h a d some exper i ence i n cornmeal mg. Experience as lieutenant was not sufficient ; ho ought tleman bad so ably and temperately promalgated, and, if to have served as captain. The hon. and gallant .gentleman he differed, it was to such an inconsequential extent that he had said that there were doubtlesAsonie promotions for merit, wontd not trouble the house with useless repetition. He but that they were a small proportion of the whole. But Claimed for the navy a better system of administration, and what were the facts of the case? The number of promotions would suggest that the power of the First Lord of the Ad- made during the last two years were 66 promotions to the rank of commander an d captain, of whom 31 were " First miralty to give employment, promotion, and recommends- Lord" promotions, that was promotions of deseving ()in tim for decoration should not be exercised without consul- cars by seniority, and 35 were " Board" promotions, viz., tation with the naval officers of the board—so that their f or spec i a l services. A. largo number of these special ser acquiescenee or dissent should be recorded. That w mid im- vices were performed by lieutenants, 142 of whom had part confidence to the navy, and conduce to the benefit of the been made commanders, 32 of them by the First Lord, and country. To neglect the services of elder officers was not the 110 by the board. (Applause.) That was, 110 were clearly way to encourage younger officers, or to provide for the fu- and distinctly promoted for special acts of gallantry, and the turn. Experienced officers volunteered for employment in other 32 were those old and deeerving officers whose case the hazardous enterprises and on unhealthy stations, and received hon. and gallant gentleman has this evening brought before a cold and cant reply, couched in terms of dull routine and the house. He quite concurred in the observations of the indiscriminating formality,, entirely devoid of sympathy or hon. and gallant gentleman as to the language of the memo consideratioa, so ad to prevent further application and break vial; it was quite natural that people should ask for what the spirit of honourable ambition, as if the application were they want, and press their claims to the utmost of their not only unwelcome but impertinent, and the inherent de s i re power. It was impossible, however, to promote all deserving of advancement were a subject of reproach. Many a gallant cases, because they could only promote one commander and officer who would have earned distinction under his Soya- one captain for every three taken off the list. The lion. and reign's colours had been driven to seek amore considerate re- gallant gentleman complained of the list of retired captains, ception in the mercantile marisie. Many a gallant officer from but the fact was that there was only a difference of Gd. a day the culpable and cruel disregard of his claims, bad returned to in their pay; one was 10s,, and the other les. 61 ; so that, his family with crushed feelings and a broken spirit. (Hear, although they rewarded deserving commanders, by promoting hear.) He wished not to be misunderstood, ho wished not to them to captains, they gave , hem the rank,'but only an extra incur prejudice unfounded or suspicions which he did not de- Gd. a day. (Hear, hear.) lie proposed to add 150 to the serve. He neither disparaged the services of any officer nor -eniority list. Lot the hon. and gallant gentleman look over grudged him better fortune. He merely intended to raise his the list of i etired captains, andrpoint out one sin le man who voice against a system of partiality—irreconcilable with jus- had not claims on the ground of service. (Hear, hear.) He tice and opposed to sound policy. Unless a naval officer had dotted him. (Applause.) • The commanders' list had caused the advent ige of high connexions or could command political more anxiety than any other. There were 1,2 ,0 lieutenants, interest, or could evoke the compassionate sympathy and con- and only 450 commanders,. and there were, therefore, largo sideratiou of the members of this and the other House of Par. numbers of lieutenants pressing for promotion to that rank. liament, be reight hope and hope oa for ever. Was such en- But while almost all the lieutenants were employed, not more cosiragement worthy of a nation that professed to love lade- than one-third of the commanders were. They had promoted penitence of character, and boasted that the doors of advance- 140 commanders last year, the greater part of them for die ment were open, without consideration of birth or means, to tinguislied service. .Sixty-six ware promoted the year before, the highest and worthiest of its sons ? He repudiated the but the number of commanders promoted last year exceeded phrase so often quoted, of fighting under " the cold shade of by twenty tte whole number of commanders employed iu sea the aristocracy." He only bespoke impartiality for good and going ships. Though lie felt bound to reward lieutenants, by meritorious service, remembering, as he did, that coronets making them commanders, for gallant actions, yet when they had received a lustre from the names of Musgrave, Howe, became commanders the chances of active employment for Hood, St. Vincent, Exmouth, Collagwood, and Nelson. He s snie time were small. They therefore removed one diffi might not live see it, he might not, and he cared not to benefit f cultv but created another. (Hear.) He had employed eons by the tardy recognition of right, but he felt assured the day menders in a class of vessels hitherto coinmanded by lieu was close at hand when claims would be impartially consi- tenants with a view to diminish the evil. It would be seen, dcred, and the one beaten path to employment, promotion, therefore, that in the rank of commanders, it was necessary and recommendation to the Sovereign for honours would be to provide large means of retirement. The complaints of the by good and meritorious service. He would only add the hon. and gallant gentleman were unjust, because many lieu words of Mr. Burke, which were most appropriate—" Of all tenans a were made commanders at an advanced age, and the services under the Crown there is not one that will less there was, therefore, no chance of their finding themselves at bear tampering with than that of the navy ;it is the last that the top of the list till it was too late in life for them to expect can be supplied in the event of emergency, and any failure of active employment in that capacity. The list of lieutenants which brings down and draws upon the country the heaviest the hon. and gallant gentleman described as "frightful and of all consequences." In conclusion, the gallant admiral . de. disheartening ;" but it had be en greatly reduced by the addi clared his intention lo follow the hon. and gallant member tions to the retired list and promotions to commanders, a (Captain Scobell) into, the lobby, should he divide the house rank very much coveted by them, although not bringing any upon the motion great accession of pay. The list was thus brought to about Sir C. WOOD also complimented Captain Scobell for the the limit recommended by the Committee of 1848. As to the temperate tone as well as for the ability with which he had charge made against the Admiralty .of large and indiscri brought his motion before the house, but denied that he had mivate admissions into the navy it was unjustifiable. It was gratifying to give a complete and satisfactory answer to such. shown sufficient grounds for the appointment of the committee a statement as that, although he must confess it was not a which he had asked. It was very true that if abuses did exist little provoking to have a statement made in that house, by the committee that had been asked for would point out the a gentleman of the hon. and gallant member's authority, remedy ; whilst, on the other hand, if there were really no which was altogether untrue. If the admissions bad been abuses at all, the Admiralty would be proved to be blameless more than were demanded by the requirements of the ser vice, they would have been overdone with mates and mid shipmen. by the inquiries of such committee. But unless abuses had But the lieutenants were only 1,200; so that a the been proved to exist, the house would not properly discharge mates could not have been diminished by being promoted its duty if it appointed the committee f o r which the hon. gen- lieutenants... The fact was, the numbers had been studiously cadets, tleman asked. All the recommendations which were made kept down ; and the mates, by the committee to which the hon. and gallant gentleman were 600 short of the number recommended by t ! (Captain Scobell) had alluded had been carried into effect by So much for the charge of indiscriminate admissions. They midshipmen, and the the Board of Admiralty. The hon. and gallant member corn- had foreseen what had been adverted to, sveit;llrnedspteiciteytohtande, plained that there had been no sailor ou the committee, redundancy of officers, should peace s e a l f l as they could do so, That was very true ; lint that committee was appointed to therefore, kept down the numbers, inquire not only into the management of the navy, but consistently with the exigencies o s :f he th a e rn s ly erv a ic n e d . Another d v e i t i o t the e permanently, conditiono f also of the army and the artillery; and there was not a point was the difference bet T w b e e enthe navy course they had pursued single soldier or artilleryman upon that committee. with respect to bounty.. It was, therefore, not correct to represent that any undue food, and in every favour was shown to any branch of the public service was not to give bounty, the seamen. They had improbvneedttoheilmr condition their upon that occasion. The hon. and gallant gentleman said by increasing their pay, improving bounty had that the committee in question had recommended iu their re- way they could. , a_ I d rg o e f beneficial resultsbeen attended in the port that a further inquiry should take place into the admi- army with evil insteanoralisin What ;it had been found nistration of the affairs of the navy. Now, what was the fact ? unprofitable and dot were the comparative stems ? g• Why, the committee simply recommended further inquiry into resu lts of the two ay They were shoreof men in the the whole system of contract and dockyard labour , He (Sir army, while t he navy was full, Could they have a better C. Wood) said last session, and be now repeated it, that wrong proof of suc cess than this 1 The hon. and gallant gentleman though it w.s no doubt beneficial to the public service to ap- said it was gd to take the coastguard and riggers; but point committees of that house to inquire into alleged abuses, they we re engaged as such under the express condition to be when wanted, They were the existence of which there was strong ground for suspecting, taken . _ . e employed on this condition yet great detriment would necessarily be done to the public when discharged from sea-going ships. There could be no in service by the house continually interfering with the adminis- justice, therefore, in carrying out tbo conditions of their em tration of the public departments ,, by the appointment of cone- ployment. The great difficulty the navy had always to provide mittees to overhaul their proceedings. ' There could be no for was to be able, at any time when such a step might be doubt that uniformity in the administration of the public de- necessary, to make large additions to the number of men, and artments was rendered very difficult by the frequent change to make such additions rapidly. Theymust, therefore, always of P the Ministry; but it mould be mere just to all parties, to have at hand numbers of men who could be called at once permit the Government for the time being to con tinue unin- into active service when wanted. A measure was nearly ready terrupted their mode of conducting the public departments, which would materially improve the condition of chaplains, sinless there was good reason that the public for supposing naval instructors, paymasters, assistant-surgeons,' and engi interests were damaged by them. The hon. and gallant gentle- neers. The latter was a very deserving class of officers whose man made it a matter of complaint that promotions in the condition bad hitherto been somewhat anomalous. This was navy were much less frequent than they were some years ago. a delicate and difficult task ; for if advantages were given to Many promotions were undoubtedly made at the close of the one, they must be given to all, or dissatisfaction would be last war ; but the object of the Government in making these excited. The hen. and . gallant officer opposite said that there promotions was, not so much to rewa rd p ast services, as to w as a large portion of business to be transacted by the Board ena bl e the man; officers who had been emp lo y ed d uring the of Admiralty which could not be done properly by civilians: • I war, but would not be required when the navy was reduced Now, that was not so, for although it was quite true that he perfectly 140,000 or 150,000 to 42,000 m en, to retir e ou an iu- knew nothing of the management of a ship, be was rfectly •I creased half-pay. The navy was still redu ced in 1835 , to 26,500, capable of taking a Part in transacting the bu =iness which came including men and officers. 1,000 officers were promot e d a t th e 1 before them. IIIP0:nt of fact 9-10ths of it could be t raosacted by . cud of the w„, but the 2cct ~,§ tbett 89 reduced that it • civilians. Thum was, ftw examplo, thg§uPplY 9; Fao!eAtfc'r the _._ _ __. ' navy, audit was not necessary to have the opinion of a naval officer exclusively on that subject. Now, it so happened, that that very morning he took down the number of questions which came for discussion before the board, and only referring exclusively to naval matters. There was the question of pro viding stores, of buying different articles, of victualling, of medical necessaries, and so on. So that as he had said, nine tenths of the business was exclusively of a civil nature, and on which a civilian was quite as well qualified to give an opinion as any naval officer. Of the six lords composing the board, four were naval men ; the first lard was a Civilian, but on no occasion, or on any subject which affected the naval ser vice, did he take any step, without consulting his naval col leagues. With regard to promotion, it was regulated by seniority and selection—and in his opinion it was by selection alone that they could get the ablest men to command their ships 'and promote the efficiency of the service. With re spect to himself, in making promotions he was regulated by no private or personal eibtive whatever ; and so many applica tions were made, that in making one selection he ran the risk of; probably, offending 900. But, if he discharged his duty to the best of his judgment, as ho knew and believed he had, he had the satisfaction of knowing that he was guided in every act by the most conscientious motives. That the affairs of the navy had been well administered, he night appeal to the navy itself; at no time, nor during any former war, were officets, and men in a state of more complete and thorough efficiency, and he was perfectly sure, notwithstand ing, all that had been said to the contrary, teat that was the opinion of the country at large. (Hear, hear.) Captain BOLDERO would support the motion for the ap pointment of a select committee, though he did not agree with the hon. and gallant officer who brought it forward, in regard to mandn ; the navy. He believed the navy at present was better mat.ne I - , better paid, and better fed, than at any former period in their naval annals, They were nowbetter paid than in the mercantile marine, and, therefore, in that respect the greatest credit was duo to the Admiralty. He approved, how ever, of the motion for a committee of inquiry, because if the system be good it would redound to the credit Of the Admi ralty, if not, it ought to be corrected. The commission to which the right hon. gentleman referred had made many re commendations, and all of them were carried into effect with, respect to the army, but nothing was done regarding the medical department of the navy. That was one of the reasons why he should support the present motion. Everything had a beginning, for now the Admiralty had not only increased the pay of medical officers in the navy, but directed they should have cabins, so that bya little - perseverancethey would obtain more. Their pay at present gradually increased up to ten years, but from ten to twenty they received no increase at all. Now that was not right or proper. They were highly educated men, and entered the service to gain rewards and honours. To retain them in the service ought to be the first object of the Admiralty ; but by the present system they were excluded from receiving additional pay after serving ten years. Then let them look at the question of rank, as be tween those in the army and navy. An inspector of hos pitals in the army ranked as a brigadier -general, while a naval inspector of the same class only took rank as a lieutenant colonel. Now that was a distinction which he contended ought not to be made. Then again he found the Other day that in conferring decorations on those who had distinguished themselves in the Crimea, Dr. Hall, as Inspector-General, was made a K.C.8., while another doctor, who held the same rank in the 'navy, was only created a C.B. In the - army the Inspector of Hospitals was made a K.C.8., as he had said ; five hospital surgeons were advanced to the rank of C. 8., yet only one medical officer was shni arly honoured in the naval department, although in all the great actions he the Crimea the naval medical department had rendered, in those bloody fields, the most important services, (Hear.) He thought the appointment of a committee would be productive of great good, and he should, therefore, support the motion. Admiral BERKELEY said, the hon. and gallant member for Bath had picked out, from a list of 300 names, some dozen persons belonging to the aristocracy, whose promotion, he said, had been gained by interest and favour, and not by merit. It was not pleasant to speak of One's self, but he would ask the hon. member for Bath to look at his (Admiral Der- Mee) services, and see if he had not won his promotion by those services. So far from his having any interest in those days, ids. father was a staunch opponent of the Admiralty by whom he was promoted, and his father never asked a favour in his life. (Hear.) The hon., gentleman had also al luded to a friend of his, the Iton. Richard Dundee, who com manded the fleet in the Baltic last year, and was pleased to point him ant as ono who had gained his present station through intereet, and not through Isis own merit. Now. he most positively asserted, and ho could appeal to the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle for confirmation of the state ment, that no one ever asked for the .appointment. He was the person who recommended the Hon. R. Dundas to the right lion, baronet (Sir James Graham). The right hon. baro net took great pains to trace the career of the gallant admi ral. He obtained the opinions of men of high rank, attmog others that of Sir William Parker, as to his fitness for the ap pointment, and Admiral Dundas, in consequence of character and not from interest, was appointed to the command of that fleet. (Hear.) He wished to say only one word with regard to the manning of the- navy. He regretted that naval officers should stir in that matter, They ought to know they were treading en very delicate ground with British sailors. The fleet had been manned without bounty, and supposing bounty had been offered, without embargo, it would have been of no use whatever. In the last war, when recourse was bad to bounty and press, au embargo was laid on merchant ships not to go to sea until the men of war were manne 1. The effect was greatly to embarrass trade. No such plan had been resorted to during the present war, and be was happy to say the fleet, at the present moment, was thoroughly manned. When it was remembered that in two years we had. increased the number of men for the navy ly 24,000, he thought little fault could be found that bounty had not been given, and the mercantile marine thereby distressed, (Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant officer had quoted some words which lie had used on a former occasion when a smiler mo. tion was before the house. Sitting- on the Treasury Tench he was just as anxious for his profession as when he was an inde pendent member. There was a time when, like most naval officers, he thought tke Secretary of the Admiralty ongbt to be a naval man, but he could only say, with 12 years' exec rience of the working of the Admiralty, be had completely changed his opinion, Without wishing to disparage the t .vo naval officers who in that period had filled the office, he must say he never wished to see a naval man as Secretary to the Admiralty again. Gentlemen talked of, but hardly knew what were the duties of the Secretary to the Admiralty. There was- nothing naval in them, and if they knew the con stitution and working of the board, they world perhaps change their opinion, as he lad done. In conclusion the gal lant admiral said he had risen to make these few rem irks be cause he was convinced his gallant friend would not wish to say anything to annoy Admiral Dundas, and would not again assert that he (Admiral Berk e l e y) had been pushed forward through interest, and interest alone. (Hear, hear.) Mr. LINDSAY said that after the remarks of the gallant admiral, and of the lam. bart, the member for Carlisle, the house might think the present system of the Admiralty was perfect. He, however, differed from that opinion, and thought that on the contrary strong grounds had been shown in favour of the motion. It had been proved that when they had peace, as he hoped they soon should have, they would have more men on the active list than they could employ, thus creating general disappointment and general discontent among the officers thus pieced in inactivity. Look at the list as it stood now. In July last they . utd 2,225 officers, from flag officers down to lieutenants, and of those only 1,232 were employed, and that In a time of war. Such a fact as that alone would justify this inquiry. But he had also looked at the cost, and he found the country was paying for 993 officers on the active list, but who were necessarily inactive, a total of 186,0001., and to those on the retired lista total of 298,272/., making a total sum paid in tune of war, to active officers anxious for employment, and dis contented,and justly so, at not receiving it, and t 'those on the retired and half-pay list, of 488,3581. Ho considered, therefore, that this was an important suliject and worthy of inquiry. At the close of the last war —and what then took place ought to act as a warning against the close of this war—in 1817, the total number of seamen and marines voted for the year was only 19,0(10, and yet the number of active officers, from flag officers down to lieutenants, was 5,891. The result na turally was the greatest discontent, and to show how far that discontent went, lie would remind the house of the anecdote of the naval officer, who, after hanging about the Admiralty, without getting any employment, went in his gold-laced uniform and swept the crossing in front of Whitehall. Of course, he very soon got an appointment. The right lion. member had denied that promotion went by influence, and had spoken of canes being picked out. To avoid th a t charge, lie (Mr. Lindsay) would take a single case, that of the nine admirals who in 1842 waited on her Majesty when she visited Portsmouth, anti he found that the united services of those admirals, from the time they left the midshipman's berth to their pot rank, when they were considered fit to command a frigate, was just 2/ years, while, if he went to the flag ship at Portsmouth, in the year pr ceding the Britannia, he found four lieutenants, whose joint period of service was 56 years, aud on board the Victory lie found seven lieutenants, whose joint service was 131 years. fie was surprised that the Government would resist an inquiry into discrepancies like these, and, therefore, ho trusted the house would grant the very reasonable motion before it. Mr. BASS supported the motion, believing that promotion in the navy was given, not to merit, but to interest. He re membered hearing a conversation in the precincts of the 'house, after a celebrated dinner at the Reform Club, at which the right hon. baronet (Sir J: Graham) was present, and on that occasion some distinguished member of that house said, " Now it is all out. We always thought promotion in the navy was given only to Whigs and Radicals, a d now S r James Graham has confessed it." (Laughter.) If such a be lief prevailed in that house—ho dkl not mean to say it was well founded—at all events they should inquire whether it was true or not. He could not conceive that there could be any substantial objection to the motion of the gallant Admi ral. He should therefore support the motion. ir F. BARING said it was -a difficult thing to get appoint ments in the navy, and he had found that in experience as First Lord. His practice was to carry out Lord Auckland's amount to positive promises. list, the prior First Lord, but he could not avoid making selections ; for Lord Auckland was in the habit of writing very had whichrst (Laughter.) He made alterations in favour of old and meri torious officers. . He must say that, as there was general accu sations, he e justice thoughtdone . o f For all himself,persons. kind letters, he could say . that he knew firs own motives best, p..ad he never the ° F n i% t a il s ol a lls F gave an appointmeutbut for the good of the public service. Sir C. NAPIER said he had hoped to have brought forward his own motion upon the operations of the Baltic fleet that night, but it was then too late. When, however, he found the First Lords 'of the Admiralty get up, one after the other, in praise of themselves and their own doings, he could not resist giving the house some idea of his own ex perience on that subje\:t. He was no little surprised to find the First Lord of the Admiralty quote a letter of his (Sir C. Napier's) own ; but.that letter was written thirty years ago, , and was not applicable to the present time. His letter was written thirty years ago, when the navy was in very bad order. But this was- . taken from " Junius." • When th e y sa w bad ships built, and promotions made from political influence, things were bad indeed. He had not been able to find the passage, but ho would search .for it. The right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir C. Wood) said, that of the promotions made by First Lords one appointment in three was given to old and meritorious officers. He had thought such an assertion perfectly absurd, for ho knew the First Lords used to give the appointment to whom they pleased ; but if it was true that the system was changed, h e begged leave to congratulate the right hon. baronet and the house upon it. But if he meant to say that he never m a d e any promotions without consulting the Naval Lords, he should have thought that monstrous ; but if that, to o, was true, he was delighted to hear it, and hoped . they would stick to it. It would do more justice to the service than anything else that could be thought of.. There was another thing rela tive to the bounty that was given to seamen. The right hon. bart. (Sir C. Wood) said it was very , ticklish ground to touch r eason, he (Sir C. upon, and, for that Napier) thought it ought to be settled at once. The . right . hon. bart; said he had formerly brought forward a bill provlding that double bounty the Ld oar, least not' should be paid to seamen, but he had pointed out the folly and danger of that-brn,for the men w h o were i n th e service at the ti me would receive a bou n t y of 4 , 0001 . or 5 ,000/. a year, whereas th e o was object that should be kept in view was that a bounty us eless, unless their position was changed i n t o one of actual warfare, He (Sir Charles Napier) Was opposed to th a t bill ; an d what was the result ? Why, that they could not issue a proclamation with out everyman receiving bounty, which would cost half a mil lion of money; and the consequence was, that nainan re. GoiTOd fulaliEgt With regard to the Baltic AGO, he had told ____ the common law of the land, it is recited in the charter that that opposition could only be justified upon the ground that it had the sanction of Parliament. There was a remarkable case in the reign of Richard 11., in which a patent was granted by the Crown creating Thomas Woodstock Bail of Bucks, without the consent of Parlia ment ; but in a few years afterwards - anew patent was made out, setting forth that-this stop was taken for the security of the title of the grantee. It was laid down in the reign of Elie .beth that a writ, without the insertion e" any words sown the subject, should be held to convey an inheritance ? Now, on what principle was that law passed ? Why, upon the principle that, from.the earliest p riod, the right of inheritance has been deemed an essential consti tuent of the peerage. (Hear.) Well, then, we are now called upon. without exercising any authority upon the part of this house, to assent sub sitentio to the introduction of a principle which, practically, has net been recognised in this country for a period of 400 years. (Hear.) This I say, my lord', is a matter which we ought not to pass over in silence. I believe the Crown cannot constitutionally exercise the powers which her Majesty's Ministers now claim for it. I believe it can do it with no more justice than it can exercise the authority to appoint a high com mission court, or any other power which indisputably be longed to it, and which has never been abrogated. (Hear.) Now, as to the question of expediency, I may observe that whether it be expedient that Baron Parke should sit in this house or not is not the real point at issue in the pre sent case. The question whether it is expedient that the Minister of the day should have indisputable authority to swamp the House of Lords to any extent by the creation of peerages fur life. (Hear.) It is all very well to tell me that the present is an unobjectionable exorcise of the power. By so much is it the more dangerous. (Hear.) The most perilous consequences have resulted from seine precedents which in themselves were perfectly unobjectionable. (Hear.) If it be the opinion of the Minister of the Crown that it is desirable for jadicial purposes that there should be an ad dition to the number of law lords in this house, let him bring down a specific plan upon the subject, so that both the country and Parliament may know the precise limit to which his authority is to be extended. (Hear.) I find it laid down in Blackstone that the constitution has esta blished certain outworks which tend to preserve the per sonal security of the subject—his personal liberty and his rights of property ; and among these outworks ho enu merates the constitutional powers and privileges of parlia ment, and the limitation of the King's prerogative by cer tain boundaries which it is impossible to mistake. (Hear.) Now, can we say that the preroeative otthe Crown in the case before us is defined by boundaries of that description? (Hear.) My lords, if the prerogative of the Crown is to be fixed, it must be fixed by the practice and custom of parliament. (Hear.) The case of Lord Somers has been referred to, in support of the view of the prerogative of the Crown taken by the noble and learned lord ; but the high merit of that individual raises in my mind the strongest augment that such was not the view of the Government of the day. The noble and learned lord, and those of your lordships who commenced this discussion, carefully con fined the question to the assistance which was in the pre sent instance to b 3 given to your lordships in the exercises of your legal functions ; but the noble lord who has just sat down does not confine the argument to peerages given to members of the legal profession, but says that men serving with distinction in the army and navy, and men distinguishing themselves in science, may sit'iu your lord ships' house, - and exercise a co-ordinate jurisdiction. Tho noble earl is logical, and says that if you admit this claim of Baron Parke, the Crowa will have power to grant peer ' ages for life in other cases. (Hear.) The noble and learned lord says that the idea of swamping the House of Lords is visionary. But, my lord e although your lordships' house may consist of 4 0. in how many cases has it consisted of less than that nnuilet r ? (Hear.) And will the noble lord tell me, not, that 50 or 20, but even oor 10, peers taking their seats in this house might not altogether turn or alter its determinations or its votes? (Hoer.) Do you think, if this principle be admitted, that a minister might not sup ply the place of a-deceased pear by a nominee? Bat Aix said, ' There is no danger, because there is the action of public opinion!' My lorde, I say that is a most dangerous doc trine. (Hear.) What does it mean, my lords? Why, that the minister must have with him ;he opinion of the House of Commons. (Hear.) The minister may create these peerages. We shall be told that ho is acting in deference to the House of Commons ; and, then, indeed, my lords, ould the House of Lords become a mere cipher. (Cheers.) I say, my lords, that if you give power to a Minister to create coo life peerage the hereditary character of this home is gone—its usefulness and its independence are gone. If you allow this to be done you had better at once abrogate your functions, and do whatever the House of Common, may bid you. ,My lords, yon may have a weak Minister, audit' he depends on a majority of the house, he may obtain it by appealing to the worst feelings of that bones, and overbearing your lordships, obtain a temporary renewal of power. (Hear.). You cannot argue this case on the ;meths of the individual. Whatever may be his merits, the precedent must inevitably lead to the intl.,- duction of individuals loss worthy, and to the degradation of your lordships' house. (Cheers.) If you admit the principle that the CroWn may create peers for life and pleasure, subject to the opinion of this house,' and of the other house of Parliament as to qualification—l say that you introduce a principle fatal to the privileges of this house. If you do so, I say you have signed the doom of the House of Lords. (Loud cheers.) It may not come this year, or in the next five years, but if you admit this principle, my belief is, that with the heredit ‘ry peerage will be sacrificed the hereditary monarchy—(cheers)—and that although the monarchy might be upheld by the per sonal virtues of the individual possessor, it would fall with the very first breath of popular feeling. (Cheers.) To suppose that such a state of things can exist is con trary to all reason, and contrary to all expediency. (Hoar.) What, my loots, have we seen in our colonial p3ssessions? They sought to imitate the House of Lords by nominating persons for life, and they concluded that by making peer ages for life they would be independent of the Minister of the day ; but the con sequence has beets that every colony has declared against the nominee system. Having dis carded the tprinciple in your colonies, will you seek to introduce it at home? An Upper House may rest either on the hereditary character of the house- thus giving it a stability and firmness which, in my conscience, I believe no other institution can possess—giving the peer an inde feasible interest in your house—not one here to-day and gone to-morrow ; it inafrest on that principle which the British constitution has fixed fr r ,eaturies, or it may rest on the elective pinciple. (Hear.) But between the two questions of an upper chamber and an elective chamber there is no alternative ; and if you seek to build your up per chamber on any such foundation it will crumble to pieces in your hands. (Loud , cheers.) My lords, I hope we may not live—l hope our sons may not live—to see this great country degenerate into a republic, however well suited such an institution may be to other countries; but of this I am sure, that if you desire to retain the heredi tary monarchy and the constitution of this country, you must cling to the one main essential—the hereditary cha racter of the B itish peerage. (Great cheering.) I, for one, my lords, will not consent without a straggle to see that peerago swamped. (Renewed cheering.) Ido not say what course I shall think it my duty to take when this committee is, as I hope it will be, appointed. I wish to act with regard to that committee with a firmness becom ing your lordships' house (hear) ; but I will not consent to the principle that the Crown has the power of calling peers to this house by a mere exercise of its prerogative, and that we are not to discuss that prerogative. (Cheers.) Above all, I will not consent to deprive ourselves, by our own act, of a power which the House of Commons will not part with, and which, I trust, your lordships will not part with—the power of judging of your own privileges, and of being arbitrators end interpreters of the right as to who shall have the honour of is seat in your house. (Great cheering.) I concur in the motion of my noble ' and learned friend, and admire the ability and temper he displayed in introducing it to your lordships (loud cheers) ; and as I think the proposal he has made is the most moderato and constitutional course your lord ships could adopt, so I' trust that, without any refer ence to party feelings, either on -the one side or the other, it will secure the approval and assent of a consider able majority of your lordships' house. (Loud cheers.) The Duke of ARGYLL insisted that the danger to be apprehended from the creation or life peers was not greater then it was at present. In a published work of the noble and learned lord opposite (Lord .Brougham) to which allu sion had already been made, ho found it stated that the Government, in 1832 was prepared, if it had been found ne cessary, to create as many as 80 new hereditary peers ; but the thing wee to be done in a manner that would snake as little permanent alteration in the Upper House as possible. The list was framed so ue to consist chiefly of eldest sons of peers. Irish and Scotch 'peers, and persons with no fami lies. Yet Such was the objection of the Ministers to re sort to such a step, even during the reform excitement, that they could hardly have been persuaded,- under any circumstances, to adopt the course lie had described. "He (the noble duke) was satisfied that the objection of most of the peers present who were incl ine d to support the that there motion was directed not against a moderate exercisetthettoprero gativeits abuse. H of the e Crownwould However, .i n the creation reo in of (i t h h e f e peers, lout were many valuable prerogatives of the Crown and privi leges of the people that might be so abused as speedily to bring the constitution to a dead lock. Lord BROUGHAM was of opinion in 1832 that the creation of new peers was a step not only justified, but under the pecu liar circumstances of the case required; and from that opinion, after the lapse of mere than 20 years, he saw no reason now to depart. He retained the opinion that the difficulty of the Government at that time would have been smoothed by the creation of life peerages. But that was the very reason which made him say that life peerages - were highly inex pedient, and he had no hesitation in declaring them most dangerous to the constitution of the court. (Hear, hear.) It was dangerous not after the manner of the gross opera tion of the carving knife, but by the subtle instilling of poison. When there was a danger. of a close division in that house, would not the creation of ten or twelve life peers be highly convenient, but at the same time dangerous instru ment in the hands of the Minister. Another objection to the creation of life peerage was the dependent character of them. That was the objection made to the creation of life peers in France, and the answer was that they were necessary to sus tain the power of the Crown. With regard to the legality of life peerages he was inclined to think that he should decide in favour of their legality if called on to decide judicially. But his noble and learned friend opposite said that he should decide without hesitation that they were illegal. His noble and learned friend at the table (Lord Lyndhurst) was of opinion that they were legal. But, notwithstanding all this variety of legal opinion, his noble and learned friend on the woolsack put the great seal to this patent without even con sulting the law officers of the Crown. In matters of far less moment it was almost a matter of course that the law officers of the Crown should be consulted, not for the purpose of be ing bound by their opinion, but as a matter of prudence and etiquette. Their lordships were now placed in these grave circumstances, that they were called on to decide on the le gality or illegality of these inc peerages. This was not the place, at all events, for finally deciding on that grave ques tion. They , were called on now to come to a decision that peerages for life were consistent with the law. If they re jected the motion of his noble and thndleearmnietodtifornientdhe only tookthey decided the question in favour of legality , and they could not draw y back ; whereas, if they caviled time to inquire. (Hear, bear.) And in what circumstances were they going to decide on this—the greatest of constitu tional questions that had ever arisen in their day ? Were they going to do so on this night, and on one night's be= •bate? Would it not be more prudent to postpone their de cision, especially as the Lord Chancellor on the woolsack 'stood alone amongst the law lords in voting for the rejection of the motion. (Hear, hear.) He had no patience what ever with those who asked them to decide the question on the personal merits of his itoble and learned friend Lord Wensleydale. No one had a higher opinion of the talents, the learning, the judicial experience and judicial services of his noble and learned friend than he (Lord Brougham) t o which he might add a persona] acquaintance of between 40 and 50 years. Ho would say nothing in the argument of the result of additional legal force: It did not exist. -They could call for the assistance of the equity judges if they thought proper. If they decided this question now without inquiry, it Would be recorded iu after years that ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. Mr. COLLIER, in pursuance to his notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill to transfer the testamentary jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts to the superior courts of common law and to the county courts. He said those courts were condemned more than twenty years since, and which had been confirmed by subse quent commissions and committees, and the unanimous voice of public opinion, and yet they had been allowed to continue in their present stab. Fifteen bills bad since then been introduced to transfer the jurisdiction of these courts, yet they had all failed, and he must confess he approached the question with some superstitious feel ing that these courts wire destined to live for ever. Three years since he called attention to this question, and was induced to leave it in the bands of the Go vernment to remedy the evils complained of. In the ensuing session a bill was brought in by the Govern ment to transfer the jurisdiction of these courts to Chancery, but some how or other it failed ; in the following session another bill was introduced, giving the jurisdiction not exactly in Chancery nor out of Chancery, but which also failed. In the third session he proposed to re introduce the original motion he pro posed, and which would deal only with a portion of the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts, that of testa mentary jurisdiction—letting the jurisdiction of these courts in matters of divorce and of church discipline stand over for the present; but he would observe that the law of divorce was a disgrace to the country, and ought no longer to exist. It was, in fact, a law for the rich, and not for the poor. The testamentary jurisdic tion of the Ecclesiastical Courts was an usurpation from the old county courts of the country. The ecclesiasti cal courts numbered 372, and were as motley, gro tesque, and disgraceful a lot of courts as could belong to a civilised country ; and so were their judgments. In the change he contemplated no new tribunals would be required, the existing tribunals of the country being suf ficient. Ile would give jurisdiction to County Courts in matters under 501. In Scotland, 30 years ago, the Consistory Courts of that country were transferred to i;he Sheriff's Court, and he had not heard of any incon venience arising therefrom. In America and India there were no Ecclesiastibal Courts, yet men in each of of those countries made wills, and their property passed without any trouble or difficulty. He would have each County Court a district for registering those wills, appointing some of the present regis trars to the office of registrars, and that a will should be proved in the district where the tes tator died. No attorney nor proctor need be em ployed in proving undisputed wills ; any man going there should be furnished with a form which he could fill up with the assistance of the registrar, and all those wills should be deposited in Somerset House. When the property was under 3001., and any disputes arose, the county court should have legal and equitable jurisdiction ; but where the property w as above 3A01., jurisdiction might be referred to the Chancery Courts, Common Law, or a New Court. He thought there was no necessity for new tribunals to bo established, because the Crown Law Courts had been relieved of some of their business, owing to the establishment of the County Courts, and could well undertake this. If it were transferred to the Chancery Court a new Vice- Chancellor would be required, but he thought that expense need not be gone to. At present, the Com mon Pleas had not sufficient business to fully occupy its time, and he thought this jurisdiction might be given to that court. He was in favour of the jurisdiction being removed to the common law courts. These courts should decide the validity of wills. After some further remarks on the details of the bill, the hon. gentleman moved for leave to bring in the bill. Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion. Ile referred to the scandalous conduct connected with the patronage of these courts, and also to the oppressive working of those courts, and the number of proctors, surrogates, &c., connected with their machinery. He said there were but ICO proctors in the kingdom whose interests were so anxiously watched over by the upholders of the present courts. He regretted the Government had not brought forward a similar measure to this, Had they dome AU NAVAL ADMINISTRATION. Captain SCOBELL moved for a select committee to inquire into the naval administration, and the lists of officers, pa tronage, promotion's, and retirements, and the efficiency of the service iu all the grades belonging to it. He hoped the committee would be granted, because if it reported in favOur of the existing system the result would be satisfactory to the Government, whereas if it came to the conclusion that that system was harsh and cruel in its operation upon a large body of officas, some remedy for it ought to be devised by the house. He had brought forward this question last year, towards the end of the session, when it was got rid of by a little amicable manoeuvring,' in a manner which, in his opin ion, was an insult to the navy, and the First Lord of the Ad miralty had then made a speech, some of the errors in.which he would take this opportnnity of correcting. One expres sion used by the right hon. gentleman was, that " the sub ject had already been most fully considered by as able a com mittee as ever was appointed." In the first place, it was eight years ago since that committee sat ; the report and evidence occupied about 1,000 pages, and, excepting the official men, ho supposed that not more than half a dozen members, of whom he was one, bad read that most volumin ous affair, which referred not merely to the question to which he would now confine himself, but to dockyards, coieracts, ship-building, and a thousand things of that sort. No doubt it was an able committee, but there was not a single naval man on it; and he must say that,- with reference to the no mination of committees to inquire into naval matters, the naval members of the house were used very ill. At the conclusion of their report . that committee recommended further investigation, and therefore his present motion was not without justification. The next thing the First Lord of the Admiralty said on the occasion referred to was, " that the House of Commons was apt to take at one time a view totally different from what it did at another ; at one time it could not do enough for the members of the naval profession; great promotions were asked for, and afterwards perhaps the house complained of what had been done." That was all declamation ; the country liked the navy, and wished it to have fair play, and would refuse it nothing in reason. What the country wished was, that one set of men should not be pushed on at a fast rate, and another set at a slow rate, but that the advantages and promotions should be fairly and equitably apportioned. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman went on to ask, " Did his lion. friend want ships to be built for the sake of employing officers 1" Certainly not ; but when ships were built lie wished every man of skill and merit to have a fair Chance of commanding, and not merely the men of great family and Parliamentary influ ence. The right hon. gentleman also said that if any ono would devise a better system of promotion than the present he would bo a great public benefactor. Well, he offered himself to be in this respect a public bene factor. One remark made by the right lion- gentleman was, that if it were desirable that officers should attain the rank of admiral at an early period of life, it would be indis pensable that young officers should be promoted for distin guished services. Who could object to such an arrangement ? The complaint was, that officers were promoted' without dis tinguished services. Again, the right hon. gentleman stated - that, "if they took the aristocratic names in the navy it would be found that, with the exception of Lord Dundonald, they were almost esclusively on the retired list," but lie (Capt. &obeli) would show that, besides that noble lord, there wore a great many aristocratic names that partook largely of the favour of the Admiralty. Taking only the ac tive list and the admirals, he found a Fitzroy, who from the time of being a lieutenant to becoming a post-captain passed only 4 years ; a Percy passed only 2 years ; a Cadogan 5 years ; a Radstock 3 years ; Crofton 34 years ; a Berk e l y 4 years ; a Dundas 3 years; a Stopford 34 years; a Grey 4 years, &c. Ho found on the same admirals' list men of the names of Brown, Dillon, Hornby, and so on, who from lieutenant to post-captain had passed respectively 10, 11, and 16 - years. Taking 20 of the last-made admirals and 20 of the slow-made admirals, be found the average time of the former from lieu tenant to post-captain wag pi years; and of the latter 12 years and a fraction. The reference to Lord Dundonald's name put him in mind of that gallant officer having won his honours not because of his aristocratic name, but, at the can non's mouth, and no finer career than his was to be found in the British navy ; and yet that noble lord had oil a late occa sion been neglected, in not being allowed to explain before the Admiralty his plan for the benefit of the country. Taking the active list of commanders the same result presented itself. He trusted that to correct these evils in , the navy recourse would never be had to the system of sale and purchase, as had some years ago been suggested, The constitution of the Admiralty was most faulty. In four years and a half there had been tour different First Lords, and it certainly was im possible that any service could he properly governed under a system of sock rapid changes. Three of these, too, were civi lians, and they, of course, for come time after their appoint ment, from their ignorance of professional details, m :st have been perfectly unable of themselves to transact much of the business brought before them. The noble lord at the head of the Government some time ago, in speaking of the army, said it ought to be commanded by a soldier, and that if the patronage of the army were dispensed by any one sitting on the Treasury , bench the number of complaints would be very much multi plied. What was good for one service was good for the other, and if the army ought to be coniiiiiinded by a soldier, why should not the navy be commanded by a sailor? Whir was that system of distribtiting patronage which, if it were to be adopted with regard to the army, would be open to such great objection to be persisted in in the case of the navy. The manner iu which the patronage in the navy was dispensed was anything but satisfactory ; many promotions were made from motives of mere favouritism, and howas afraid that there were sonic officers—not many certainly—who had got on so rapidly from one rank to 'another—and that, too, in a time of peace—that they were really not fit for the situations which they now filled, Such rapid promotions were unfair to the officers themselves, for they did net give them time I to learn their duties. The lat e Si r G. C oc kb urn, w h o was 17 years at the Admiralty, when he died left behind him a paper on the government of the navy, in which he denounced the constitution of the Board of Admiralty as most unsatisfac tory, and the least efficient for the purpose that could possibly be devised. A noble lord in the other Heine of Parliament (the Earl of Malmesbnry), when speaking on the subject of army reform, declared his conviction that if the administra tion of the army were assimilated to that of the navy it would become a hotbed of political jobbery. The right hon. mem ber for Kidderminster, too, and the Secretary of the Admi ralty had both strongly denounced the evil effects of the pre sent corrupt system. Fortified by these opinions, he thought he had made out,a case for the inquiry for which he asked. He had also received numerous communications from naval officers who were personally unknown to him ; awl he could assure the First Lord of the Admiralty that, however well the favourites with whom alone he habitually came in con tact might be satisfied with the existing state of things, the feelings entertained in regard to it by five-sixths of the officers of the navy were those of disappointment and chagrin. To these suffering men an inquiry into the state of the navy list and the system of promotion would give the greatest delight. From a sreturn which he obtained towards the close of 'the last session of Parliament, and the results of some further investigations, he had compiled some important facts in regard to the different classes of officers which he would state to the house. In the year 1800 we had in com mission 167 sail of the line; and there were in the naval service 120,000 seamen add marines. The number of admirals was 99, and out of these most of them were fit service. At pre sent we had in commission 44 sail of the line. The number of seamen and marines in the fleet was 50,030, and the number of admirals 91 on the active, and 215 on the retired list. He did not object to the existence of a retiree list ; but be did most strongly object to the system which obtained as to put ting officers upon that list. Since 180 there bad been made 45 acting admirals ; and 141 had been placed on the retired list. What he objected to:was, that a man should be put upon this retired list because he had not served 6 years as a post captain ; although he might have been asking for employment all the time he had been on shore. The result of the present was, that of 4 officers promoted to the rank of admiral last year one, who was made an active admiral, was 70 years of age, while those who were only between 51 and 60 years of age were placed upon the retired list. The remedy for this state of things would be to count a man's years of service not in one, but in all grades ; a course for the adoption of which there was the greater reason, because it was in the lower ranks that a man learnt the most of his profession. (H e ar.) Of post-captains he might tell much. the same story as he had related of admirals. . There were upon the list many men bearing aristocratic names who bad got ou exces sively fast, while the holders of such common names asJohn -50 officers were m a d e pos t- cap t a i ns, o f w h om son, Kidd, or Brown got on equally slowly. In the year 1847, 131 h B4B a , d and l 8 a' s commanders only from 2 to 5 years, while servedl7 had served in that rank from 32 to 17 years, and of these 14 had medals. In 1 8 46 , 100 captains were allowed to retire. They had most of them been some 30 years or more commanders, and their h a lf- pay was 10 s . a -d a y . They retired with the rank of a lieutenant-colonel in the army, and an additional 6d. a-day pension. A marine officer of similar rank obtained, upon his retirement, a pen sion of 14s. a day. Was that just to the navy ? There was also another list on which the favourites were placed, and when on that they received an addition of 2e. or 2s. 6d. a-day to their pension. In the years 1847, 1848, and 1849, 80 officers were promoted to the rank of commanders. Of these 43 had served as lieutenants only from two to seven years, while 23 had served from 12 to 44 years, and of these 11 had medals, There were now 549 officers on the commanders' list, of whom only 196 were employed. Some of the bestmen were shelved on this list and never got any further. A me morial had been addressed by the commanders to the Admi ralty, and he hoped that it would receive the serious coital deration of the First Lord. The lieutenants were also a most numerous body of officers, and the state of their list was most disheartening. 1113 knew that nothing could be done to im prove the condition of the old men; but he wished to avoid the continuance of such a state 40 things for the future. • He could mention many cases in illustration of the heartless treatment to which naval lieutenants were subjected, but no ease was more glaring than that of Mr. John Greene, a most deserving officer, who, having entered the service in 1800, and distinguished himself by his gallant bearing in several en gagements, was appointed to a lieutenantcy in 1809, and, never having receive& a single step of promotion from that hour to this; had the honour of being a lieutenant at the pre sent moment (Hear.) There were in a similar position some 600 or 700 other officers—men whose promotion had been brought to a deadlock, and whose service as lieuten ants ranged from 30 to 50 years. (Hear-) Last session he called the attention of the house to the fact that there were then afloat 12 sub-lieutenants, each of who m b a d on an average been a lieutenant for 30 years. Ho was happy to add that the allusion lie had made to their erases had not been without its effect, for all of these officers had been since promoted —a circumstance which he had learnt with extreme gratification ' and for which much credit was due to the First Lord of the Admiralty. (Hear, hear.) "Were it not that he feared to trespass on the attention of the house, he could read a list of officers whose service averaged from 50 to 55 years each, but who, not having family interest or po litical influence, had failed to obtain that adv ancement to which from their merits they were entitled. -It was to be hoped that the claims of these ill-used gentlemen, would re ceive the attentive consideration of the Admiralty, and that, with a step of promotion, an increase of half-pas r would also be awarded them. • By an order recently issued, from the Horse Guards, military officers were permitted to. retire with a step of rink, and, under certain circumstances, they even received the promotion after their retirement ; but nothing of this kind was known in the navy. He truster l- that it would not be always so. Patronage was still, as it o7er had been, the bane of the service. Start two half-dozes lof mid shipmen from the same point, awl it would be ft:ind that one half-dozen would have reached the grade of postes ptain in the course of five oi, six years, while the ethers would be -20 ,7 " II ,v• i. -'