The Sun. — London, England, 1831-09-30 00:00:00

mlian r ill al e salary °l ,'l a me Jpon the v er the Ele b lr iel s a large -,c, t obj,ct P:lni :o convince °, the Conlin quarrel w it g o ' . S o ffice , 0 10 human s iy i s n ow ledg e ° • the g re° non, . , jo i bly P ala ' tht l le thought of ommendatO ~f an increase; )111c1 have r )r a dditiona l r been for sixteet; which %vas .ore, h e tho' . o with refer" en t —he sv l i, adopted h Yt, s t ern theme"; ttee which of them, eø il so had got uP • ve. agreed to ' lv ( brr for Boo' ult and a rdu ° pf Coutroul ,o those that ° p ot salaries we re of perfornla n( " e f o r was brough t 4 , e 0 M o rpetb) _ mtroul waso,o he time 0 8 ' 10 ,4 budget bad t l i e consen t tbst be turned 0: ,ithont a div i°' ELAND) • for, tice, to mar e et and Jury La l io ore ion to do r° co r leasure to the A ested in a W e p t, subject WO ° i d lad little Pr ae o l !vantage of )ossessed of f op ear, this qu'%,e, specific 01 ' 35 11 ,1 their table. b 5 R. Pee it R. 6 oh was 00 0 . subject th s !, 4 9) , In 1818, 0 0' appointed to ire , t h e s tate 0 1 e f the Goverooll, and the last Oirlep erence of 0 1 ) . 3 0 4,1 stem, and P s ' rl o o d criminal patioo, , etter found 3, bt ntly furnish ell t t t be , and placedtbi $ mous. Wi o ffer 750,00 01. ; 01, had no o nti l l ot they were lasi tion, taking s tt power over b, r immediate rear e th f ispicion to In considerild le n take care Poe esemblance t° es Of Irish 61;01 proceeding s ; ii. ,60 part of the to carry into e' i bt responsibility:of) v it ./ themselves P 9 ider was to be °D o / d e rtak e ) be un bea rd tout resPo°,. ° t CIO believed, t ' 3 joe be perferaws hear.) It tr 3., to ;.‘; satisfactori:lie country to hear,)riper ies, o f the o i c ol . o o civil and P . it during °lle rtie and t he av e c ; isio Was thre . 0 , _ an s entroent s , s at' c h day t'" el .oo artier of of indict' ? ,arried Dirt not this prove the absolute necessity which existed for an effectual alteration in the system ? The effects of the esstern were such as might a priori be expected. The Grand J urors made arrangements and accommodations with each ot h er ; they were' divided into Committees : ": Yon know what concerns this county," said one, " and I k nnw what relates to that." So that if no dishonest motives could be imputed to them, the consequence of this system was that the Grand Juries were neither more nor lees than a mode of carrying into effect, at the public ex pense, the objects of private individuals.—(Hear.) The Gr and Juri es were the persons who l a id on t h e money ; selom : an w ho : who wer e th ose that pa id i t ? Th e G ran d J ur i es were rn a ll y a select e d f rom th e l an d e d p ro p r i e t ors ; but they were •oceasionally agents of absentee proprietors—occa. o persons of an inferior class. But were they the Pe t r i . pennons upon to pay ? By no means. The persons ° "'Led upon to pay w ere no t th e l an d e d proprietors, but the every c h ar tenants.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said that charge upon the tenant came eventually upon the landlord, who could get only a proportionate rent. Perhaps r the might b e true in the case of yearly tenants ; but where t esm e ," a permanent occupant, or a lessee for a long °I years, and where there was the strongest stimulus coutd e lauded proprietor to g . et as much out of the land as he ie „ fell on the occupying tenant, who got no sort of i h e ' e l en It was not now the practice to ascertain beforehand s eori e i ut ° of money proposed to he laid out in a public y . 1 , and the general opinion was, that favouritism pre- Di ,. '" f ed • The works were performed in a slovenly and im itr.eet mnner, and there was no check upon the expen uudee after the money had been granted; and works were bet rtal uin under the pretext of being of public utility, might for purposes of private advantage, which it T h l ' e l he thought that gentlemen would be ashamed of. an i ' ti ght lion. Gentleman here cited from the report ex n ' te nce iu the county of Mayo, where money had been wratled for t h e pro f esse d purpose o f ma ki ng a b r id ge , util l i e t i •' w hen completed, was found to be of no public Il e ," and was converted into an embankment. The tnt e u-e might be astonished to hear of a bridge being made i t wen e mbankment, and might wonder how it was done ; in h ,°Ply, as a witness said, by stopping the arch— tuhnel")--•permitting the tide to retire at low water, and 1 t .,,, 41 ng it at high water by a floodgate.—(A laugh.) t i the 's utterly useless as a bridge, for there was no road on Aar eh ie--(A laugh)—and a witness stated that there als o „ ;° rutcasion for a road, fir there was another bridge Iv,. quarter o f a m il e off.—(A laugh, and " hear.") th e might be an exaggerated case ; but it was notorious esi, ii r( nule were m a d e f or no o th er purpose than that they tee n ' s "' t g° by this g en tl e m a n's house, or through that gentle /4demesne.—( Hear, hear.) Ills Hon. Friend, the ak e t t i l ther for Mayo, cheered at this ; but he did not under -4 Whether he admitted or denied it. m r IlliOWNE—ph, I approve of it all. s e st S TANLEY continued. He should now proceed to pr ate the main principles of the measure he was about th'. prate He would state again, that he did not present I; i ta s e - , - ,.° measure that had been fully m mtured, but as 11`"ung tangible, which he could submit to the public e 1 3 7 of remed f r the evilveal was his intention to ribit.ato,iroenthis session y o Bill than to mat this voluminous l eft) : 'l . t be printed, in order that he might receive that nd upon the subject of which he stood in need, The Measure would be, in the first place, the consolidation it ,no less then 65 or 70 Acts of Parliament : and should cit.? carried into effect, it would become a manual for th e i r " Jurors, a summary of their duties, and a guide for tbe. cond uct.—(llear.) The nex t object was to separate pp, c ivil from the criminal business of Grand Juries. He befor e that public works of every description should, milted being brought before the Grand Jury, be sub e,4 to the magistrates at special sessions, and lie pro '' 4 0 to give to the magistrates an absolute and a positive .leptit• , aw l , l‘c on works unfit to be undertak w en, and to take - 'ng• 3 from Grand Juries altogether the power of sanctien- a °Y projects which the spe c i a l sess i on m i g ht d eem un -Bt'eessary, He proposed that th e w h o l e o f t h e spec i a l i • e l° l l presentments should be disposed of by the Grand Jur si Y; that notice should be given to the igh n ...."riff of the•county of the amount of business esext ed, and that the High Sheriff should fix a day —ore th a n ten days, nor less than three • f Jury to assemble to consider p or t ram th ' l e criminal business; and the tallies should be so struck a t there should he a Grand Jury when the Judge came () :he Assizes for ae disposal of the criminal business of J u 'untY. With respect to the qualification of a Grand that was a point upon which he had not made up mind. Be did not, therefore, propose at present to htt 'ke any alteration in the qualification which now existed, devisede it was extremely doubtful whether there could be C,, a bona fide security for the parties being in the .gmer Class and the attempt might prevent their having etlY az, Grand July at all. He proposed that it should be pe-andatory and compulsory on the High Sheriff to select L e ' t a e " from each barony in the county as Grand Jurors, "e would impose no further restrictions upon the s.e biZo than that the twenty-three first names in the list ne hi includ e one from each barony in the county. He Poi ct „P e r° P.ised that in each county there should be ap- Wl io nt ';_' °ne or more competent and experienced surveyors, in e nould be examined by an unpaid board of engineers tte in u ti ', and who should be attached to the different gt ehe ee, and removable upon the complaint of the in ) . l , - ;" Jury, He proposed that they should be ap thlted by the Lord Lieutenant, because he thought and s 4 great power would reside in these surveyors, t4, 6re at confidence. must necessarily be reposed in them, Pei,„ u glit not to be dependent upon, or to receive their ap ce.a4nent from, the Grand Juries. He proposed that the op en Jury, when sworn, should hold their sittings in tnedie C ourt —(Hear)—that on any presentment being they should hear evidence in open Court—( Hear) f a e - 1 0 , When the decision came to be made, if any dif tihenee,! 6 f opinion existed, there could be no objection to verdi ct retiring to a private room, and then return their The Grit' it ' Open Court. The next point was of importance. Poet - , r4 nd Jury, having heard full evidence, and the re ef e* th e surveyor, should be first called upon to decide c oat kesenti neet be desirable, and secondly, the maximum t4),,:f the work ; and all works should lie pet formed by t ° th ", by sealed tenders, to be opened by the secretary l evy e Grand J ur y, an d, pro p e r se curity being given, the tl,:'t tender should be invariably adopted. He proposed tk oi ti le co n t ractors s h ou ld b e b oun d t o pay a ll p ersons I les - sP ed by them in money payments alone—(Hear, i lltilei . "anti that the contractors should not receive one ‘l'ms t k L g' except on the report of the surveyor that the Pla s w as satisfactorily done. He proposed, in the next Witi., ; : ° d o away a l toget h er with th e office of supervisor and i t th ne dut y o f overseer o f t h e rea d s , vest i ng t h e i r powers tin g e c ontractors, and in the county surveyor as a cheek ex a co ntractors. With respect to accounting for the tias . , 4l hture of money, the present practice was by affi l'h'e 1 , 6 f the party, which he should altogether abolish. taie,,'lmght lion. Gentleman here pointed out, from the l tatnTe of Mr. Ni mmo , th e ev il s o f this practice. An i e l in the p resent sys t em was , th a t th e p r ison s who te e 4 the tax were not the persons who paid it. A re ,lllo4l,lProPosed was, that the system of Grand Juries Ol e ; ,he altered by snaking them an elective body.— to t ,; ; ; e , h ear, from Mm. O'Connell.) But he could not re -Ivl,-" Lis Mind to making Grand Juries elective bodies, t he e : 4 there was an expenditure of money, and where E'e r ,: Were opportunities of favouring individuals. The k e il ve system, he feared, would lead to almost as muc h the g as existed now. The only fair mode of making ‘ ) 11 - , 4 ' c 'irnposers become the tax-payers was , that the watt c ess should be charged, not on the occupying tet- Ass n ,: "tit, with some exceptions, on the landlord, or I ligl:: 4 l 7'tlY interested in the property improved. h The i 4 des n 'rri. Gentleman concluded by stating, e . fe . lt . intere s t in this measure, and that he reyeced in zhav ed ' had th e means o f a d vanc i ng so f a r in it. lie .11.1 N-; awe leave t o b r i ng in a Bill to amend the Grand lllr ,11 of Irela n d. of th e ' e ) . %I 'SE expressed much satisfaction at the speech ° Peet o — e i ght Ron. Gentleman. Ireland had now a pro tthieh being relieved from one of the grossest abuses No e oc eny country Lad ever laboured under. The real e z heaa the abuse was, tint Ireland had been ruled by an 'MPG and th a t th e I r i s h public had no voice in the Pri n , sl tlon of taxes, contrary to on: of the fundamental *5 0111" of our Government. ' Tue evils did not arise Sh ould " Grand Juries but from the system itself. He tij eidC f liks to separate ' entirely the financial from the . ju %elt unctions —to vest the right of assessment in a L ili ttaL, bo ards and to confine the duty of the Jo:) , to cri- Ne n esatt eta. The measure of the Right Hon. Gentle klustWOubl correct many abuses, but ulterior proceedings k is e adopt e d . tgoiebli-t'll4l-7....Tenthought that the measu . re introduced by the . e rewe ' s. G . tleman was not sufficient to . me . et . the evils melted, whilst it was inconsistent. with his denun , o f th e enormities to be effaced. J' loudly ft% LIVIN satd, that the pi esent system was as e° nlti be conc e i ve d, an d th a t an amelioration was "eer t ei ne(' for. He supported the motion of the Irish "Y. r e , eas ere IsATESCIN would be h a ppy t o su pport any ever that could correct the existing System, which was stae xt 3' respect reprehensible, although he thought the The H eh t u s of th e I r i s h S ecretary somewhat overcharge d . 4 44 — ,, ,n• member went into numerous statements of gross Pese i 4 Irel an d . Ile shou ld b e h appy to support many kr ° , I I th e Right Hon. Gentleman's measur e . I. GRATTAN thought it quite time to correct ' the abuses which this measure was intended to meet. He thought, however, that the Right Hon. Gentleman's measure, in some respects, was a mere alteration where more thorough changes would be advisable. Mr. LEADER entered into many details to show the evils of the present Grand Jury system of Irelam% Mr. BLACKNEY was deeply sensible of the abuses of the present system, but doubted the efficacy of the present remedy. Mr. RUTHVEN regretted that any circumstances could have induced the Government to postpone so long the in troduction of a fneasure so important as the present. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. The report of the Committee of Supply was then brought up, and agreed to. The other Orders of the Day were then agreed to, and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. Sir Jolla; HoßirousE moved the re committal of the Vestry Bill at near two o'clock on Thursday morning in the House of Commons. Lord ALTHORP and the Minis ters generally supported him, but Mr. Ross, Mr. GOUL BURN, Sir RICHARD VSE'VYAN, and others, opposed the discussion at that hour, and it was, after some debate, ar ranged that the subject should be brought on positively at four o'clock on Friday, September 30 (this day). The friends of the Select vestry arid Anti-Reform system will muster strongly against the Bill, and it is therefore hoped the supporters of the measure will not fail to attend. HOUSE OF LORDS, SEPTEMBER 29. The LORD CirnweEr,Lon. took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'clock. TITHES. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY gave notice that he proposed to move the third reading of the Tithes Compo sition Bill to-morrow. LUNATICS' BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR stated that he had now to present to their Lordships a Bill for the better care and protection of lunatics who came under the cognizance of the Coutt of Chancery, and for the establishing a better mode of hearing and determining questions of lunacy. It was one of the three measures of Chancery Reform which he ha I introduced in the course of the last session. It was proposed to have these questions tried before one of the Judges in the ordinary way of trials at Common Law, and this would enable the Court of Chancery to dispense with the Commissioners in Lunacy, by whom such questions were at present tried. By this means much expense and delay would he prevented, and the risk of mis- decision very considerably diminished. He moved that the Bill be read a first time.—Read a first time, and ordered to be printed. The Earl of ROSEBERRY presented a petition from the Provost, Magistrates, and Town Council of Linlithgow, from the Dean of Guildry of the same place, from Queens ferry, from Kirkliston, and from a parish in Edinburgh, praying their Lordships to pass the Bill as speedily as possible. _ . _ LUNACY BILL. On the motion of the Loan CHANCELLOR this 13111 was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-'sorrow. The• Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Abingdon, Berkshire, in favour of the Reform Bill. Lord ABERCROMBIE presented a petition from Stir ling and Kinross to the same effect. EDINBURGH PETITION. The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition from the inhabitants of Edinburgh, signed by 36,150 persons. In doing so the Noble Lord observed that, according to the rules of calculation adopted by political and statistical writers, the whole male adult populatio❑ of the city of Edinburgh, with but few exceptions, hid signed this petition.—(Hear, hear.) This, the Noble Lord looked upon as a most remarkable fact in favour of the great question of Parliamentary Reform.—( Hear.) Twenty or five and twenty years ago it would have been considered madness to call on the people of the city of Edinburgh to sign such a petition, but to him it was matter of no wonderment at all, that after a lapse of 25 years, and the exercise of deep reflection, by a very think ing, solid, and considerate people as the Scotch were, a people little liable to be carried away by sudden im pulse to lend themselves as tools to party—should have conic to the resolution, one and all, of supporting the measures of his Majesty's Government to redress their grievances. It was true that this great city, containing one hundred and forty or one hundred and fifty thousand rersons had their representatives in Parliament, but it was equally true that they had not the privilege of electing them. They were their representatives, because they represented them not—they'were their Members, because they did not choose them—they ,were the Members for the burgesses of Edinburgh, because the burgesses of Edinburgh no more chose them than did Constantinople— they were chosen by perhaps the only persons in the whole city who had not signed the present petition. By how many persons did their Lordships suppose they were chosen? Peradventure a thousand—no—not b 0 much !—by a hundred? Not so much ! Not by a hundred or even half a hundred !—but by—three and thirty persons—well meaning, no doubt—hut no more than thirty-three !—(Hear, hear, hear.)-- But if this should be the case with Edinburgh, there were other parts of Scotland, which under this time- . honoured system (which he was in hopes was now about drawing to its final termination) —which by this legacy of olden time (but which was one of the worst lega cies that could have been bequeathed to us by those who lived in the childhood of the human race, and before experience had made it as wise as the present) there were other parts of Scotland he would repeat that were in a much worse condition than Edinburgh.—(Hear, hear.) He need not remind their Lordships that over the whole of Scotland there was no such thing known as popular representation. All was close—the Members were not elected by the proprietors of the land, but by persons who probably bud not an acre—they were elected by the holders of what were called superiorities.—(Loud and continued cries of " Hear, hear.") Those noble personages who were the advocates of such a system as this would have an opportunity of arguing upon its efficacy, and stating the grounds on which they supported it on Monday and Tuesday next—aye and a great many more days than Monday and Tuesday—for they were not sufficient to sup port by advocacy such a disgraceful and abominable system. Lord WHARNCLIFFE could not refrain from making a few observations after what had fallen.from the Noble Lord relative to the opportunity that would be afforded to the opponents of the measure on Monday and Tues day next. Whatever opinion he might, however, en tertain with respect to the representation of England, he for one was ready to join in a Reform of the representation of Scotland, honeying it loudly called for. But in giving that Reform, great caution should he used that the means adopted should not destroy the resources of the country. The LORD CHANCELLOR was extremely glad to hear that Scotland was likely, in any event, to receive the blessing of an amended representation ; bat why was Edinburgh, or the Island of Bute, to be drenched with innovation, and Gatton and Sarum to be left as they at present stood ? When his Noble Friend (Lord Wharneliffe) defended these English rotten bon oughs, he (the Chancellor) would be obliged to say a ler, words in favour of the present electors of Edinburgh, tie would say something which would again draw something from the Noble Lord in favour of the Engli•:h Reform Bill. Ifa was aware that Noble Lords would not go the length which he went to on that question, viz,—" The Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill." He was now about to present a petition— Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the Noble and Learned Lord had no right to interpret his intentions, and he would not mix op the questions of the English and Scotch Re form Bills. The Earl of CAMPERDOWN said that nothing was wor se than the present state of Scotch represen tation. One reason had been put forth why Scotland should be left as it was, viz. that that country had prospered under that system ; but it must be remembered that be. fore the Union it had no communication with England, and whatever his opinion of the Union might be, to that Union he attributed the prosperity of Scotland. Lord MELVILLE thought it was improper to bring on the state of the Scotch Representation on the discussion of the English Reform Bill. The two questions ought to be kept disti nct. He would not give his opinion upon the state of the Scotch representation at present, but if a Bill for the purpose of altering the present system were brought before the House he would then be prepared with his opinion. The Learned Lord bad made a mistake in stating that the population of Edinburgh amounted to 140,000, that included nearly the whole of the county o f Edinburgh. Lord CAMPERDOWN explained The Lord CHANCELLOR presented a petition from the Corporation of London, praying that their Lordships would pass the Reform Bill. It would not do for noble Lords to say you shall have no Reform in England, but in revenge you may take Scotland, and do with it as you please—that would neither please England or Scotland. He had beep misunderstood in his statement respecting the people who bad signed the Edinburgh petition. When he said that it was signed by all those capable of bearing argot, he did not mean that the people would take up arms; no, the people would be quiet, but the refusal pf the pre sent measure Would be to him (the Chancellor) and to every lover of his country, to every lover of the tranquility of his country, a subject of the deepest, of the most heart felt regret. Lori WYNFORD—Whether he was called an Anti. Reformer or not, he would most certainly, in regard to tie Reform Bill now in the House, vote according to his conecience, whatever might be the consequence. He 'night, perhaps, support a Reform consistent with the rinciples of the Constitution ; but it did not therefore, follow that he would vote for this measure of Reform. There were many in that House of the same opinion— many who would not object to a moderate Reform, consistent with the principles of the Constitution, though they would not vote in favour of this Bill, which was subversive and destructive of the Constitution, of the independence of Parliament, and of the liberties of the people. Tine Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack had triumphed in a supposed change in the opinions of his Noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe)near him; but his Noble and Learned Friend had himself changed his opinions on the subject; for this Bill was very different from the Reforms which he had from time to time been proposing. In his former Reforms, there were no clauses for dis franchising places in the manner in which they were dis franchised by the present measure, which was completely destructive of the Constitution. Lord HOLLAND—His Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack had been taunted by the Noble and Learned Lord who stoke last with a change of opinion, since he had, on former occasions, suggested Reforms of a less ex tensive nature than those proposed by the present Bill.— lie would say a word for his Noble and Learned Friend, who was perfectly able to answer for himself ; but he must say that the accusation contained a pregnant con sequence, for if his Noble and Learned Friend bad proposed lt,s extensive Reforms, these Reforms had by the Anti- Reformers been uniformly rejected—(Year)--and if by that rejection they had rendered a measure more necessary, they ought to be the first to vote for it. They had better consider what would be the consequence of blindly, stu pidly, and dangerously rejecting a measure which was adapted to the times and ardently desired by the nation, and which would restore and confirm the real ancient Con stitution of the country.—(Hear.) One effect of the mea sure was, that even those who were prepared to oppose it were anxious not tin be thought hostile to all Reform, and were displeased at being called Anti-Reformers. But these concealed Reformers—(Hear)—who came forward now, at the eleventh hour, and protested that they would not op pose moderate Reform, had unfortunately never found out a Reform to suit them.—(llear.) But where was their own Reform even now ? It was, indeed, now too late; but why had they not proposed their own Reform before? It was rather doubtful whether they had had any Reform at all in contemplation. The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Wharn cliffe) had said, that he had given no Opinion on the ques tion of Reform ; but if he had not, he had at least made important admissions. He had admitted two important facts—first, that the system of representation in Scotland required a complete Reform.—(No, no)—well, then, if the Noble Lord did not use the word " complete," he had said that the system required Reform to a considerable extent, and that he would be ready to support such a Reform ; and secondly, the Noble Lord had by that admission ac knowledged that it might be very proper, i❑ some cases at least, to get rid of ancient abuses —(Hear, hear.) It ought to be recollected that his Noble and Learned Friend had on a former occasion proposed to put an end to the bare superiority votes, but that even to that the Anti- Reformers had refused their assent—(Hear, hear)—al though they were now angry at being called Anti-Re formers, and as an apology for their hostility to an efficient but sober and moderate measure of Reform, said that they were prepared to support Reform to some extent.----( Hear. ) Lord WHARNCLIFFE, in reply, said that the differ ence between himself and the Noble Lords opposite was just this, that they would support the measure brought up from the Commons ; whereas he should oppose it as a measure which, in his conscience, he believed to be sub versive of the liberties of the people, and detrimental to every part of the Constitution. _ . The LORD CHANCELLOR then quitted the Woolsack for the purpose of presenting a petition from the Lord Mayor and Livery of London in Common Hall assembled, in favour of the measure then before the House fur effect• ing a Reform in the other House of Parliament. Their Lordships would see that the present petition did not pro ceed from the Corporation of London, but was signed by the Lord Mayor and certain of the Aldermen and Liverymen of London, and, therefore, to all intents and purposes, was a petition from the Livery of London, and therefore entitled to all the respect to which a petition proceeding from such a body was fairly entitled. In reference to what had fallen from a Noble and Learned Friend of his, he would say that the Bill which he had described as having been drawn up by him (the Lord Chancellor) was really one which never had an ex istence. Nothing could be more erroneous than to say that this Bill—if Bill it could be called—contained no clause for the disfranchisement of Gatton or Old Sarum— in truth he did not at the time referred to contemplate any clauses at all—his measure would have been universal. Though he had had some conversation with several friends of his, from whom he expected support in the other House for the measure he had there intended to propose, yet that conversation related merely to outlines—nothing had been reduced to writing, not even the heads of a Bill —pen had never been put to paper on the subject. Before, how ever, he had time to bring that measure before the other House of Parliament, an event occurred, in consequence of which he was called from the formation of his own in dividual measure to consult with others as to what measure and extent of Reform would satisfy the people of England. His plan, though different in some respects from the Bill then before the I-louse, did embrace a considerable pro portion of it— it embraced the whole of the Scotch Bill ; but, certainly, the measure then on the table of the House went further than he had contemplated. How and why he did not go so far, he should hereafter be fully prepared to show. That he afterwards acceded to a more ex tensive measure, he could also show to have been a course perfectly consistent with the principles he had always pro fessed. What he then stated was no secret. It was matter well known to the public—he had spoken those sentiments at Leeds, and he had delivered them in the House of Commons. The Bill then before the house would, he felt assured, be productive of great and unmingled good—it was safe and practical, and, as far as it went, excellent. When his Noble and Learned Friend talked of Law Reform, and of what he should do, and what might be done by a Lord Chancellor, his mind naturally turned upon that which formed an object of anxious attention to every aspirant in the legal profession, and his Noble and Learned Friend belonging to that pro fession, his young ambit:6n was naturally excited when he looked at the possible possession of the Great Seal. He (the Lord Chancellor), when the office of Lord Chancellor devolved upon his Noble and Learned Friend—and he cared not how soon he might be relieved from its labours himself—should give the most cordial and hearty assist ance in advancing the great work of Law Reform, and hid his Noble Fiend God speed. As to the measure on their Lordships' table, he hoped that when they (lid come to discuss it, they would proceed with it deliberately, calmly, and with the gravity which became such an occasion_. that all considerations merely personal should be left out of view, and 'that the argumentum ad hondnem should be as little resorted to as possible ; and lie begged leave to add, that the House should be prudent in adopting that course, whether they regarded the prerogatives of the Monarchy, the rights of property, or the liberties of the people. Whether they rejected or listened to the demand of a united people, backed by the voice of their representatives ; whether regarding the rights of that people or the security of the British Constitution, there never yet were men who stood upon the brink of a more important discussion than did that House, being, as it was, on the eve of a debate upon Parliamentary Refarm. Lord WYNFOIID stated, in explanation, that he had heard in that House that the plan of the Noble and Learned Lord upon the Woolsack embraced the disfranchisement of nomination boroughs. The petition was then re id and laid on the table. BELGIUM. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in rising for the purpose of obtaining from Noble Lords opposite some in formation on the subject of Belgium, said that he regret ted the absence of the Noble Earl at the bead of his, Ma jesty's Government ; but still he should address himself to the Noble Viscount, the Secretary of State, and he hoped that that Noble Lord would be able to reconcile the fo reign policy of the present Administration with that policy in which lie took a part when his (Lord Londonderry's) Noble Relative conducted negociations at Vienna. Now he should come to the matter to which he wished to Lail the attention of their Lordships. He wished to know, amongst other things, upon what ground this country could be allowed to acquiesce in an arrangement made by the five Great Powers relating to the Belgian fortress's : an arrangement from m hich Holland was excluded ? Then again Ptince Leopold left this country—and of that he particularly co mplain e d—without th e slightest communi cation to Parliament on the subject from his Majesty's Government; and to that hour they were left in igne ranee as to whether or not he had been acknowledged or would be acknowledged by Prussia. When he referred to the ne cessary documents, the ]louse would see that the Niqg of Ilanover, as a Member of t: e German Confederation, was contravening tbat which the King of England was doing—the protocols issuing from Germany and those from Downing-street being directly at variance. The Noble Marquis then proceeded to contrast the con duct of the present Administration with that of Lord Castlereagh, in respect to the information af forded to Parliament, in a manner highly favourable to the latter. He next pressed upon his Ma jesty's Government the necessity which there was to in form the House how soon they were to look to the eva cuation of Belgium, now occupied by foreign troops. There was another point upon which he desired informa tion. A report had gone abroad that the B I . ;ian army was to be organized and officered by Frenchmen. He could not believe that any Government in England would supinely suffer such an unheard-of proceeding. There were still 12,000 French soldiers in Belgium ; and that, though a most objectionable state of things, was as nothing compared to the Belgian army itself being officered by Frenchmen—affording to France a direct controul and management in that army. He really could not have given the slightest credit to such a rumour, if the names of the officers had not been given to the public. It w as impossible that Leopold could have the necessary authority over such an army as that. In proof of his assertion, he would ask a Noble Lord near him, who had long been connected with Portugal, if when the army of that coun try was officced by Englishmen, it was not, i❑ effect, an army at the d.sposal of England; was it not, in truth, the same as a Br",tish army ? It was said, that Leopold was independent; but how could he be independent, as long as the French army remained in Belgium ? No ; inde pendence was out of the question ; for France was doing everything in her power to induce Leopold and England, and every State i❑ Europe, to truckle to her own ascen dancy. The Noble Lord then proceeded to contend for the right which Holland lied to be a party to any treaty or arrangement respecting the demolition of the Belgian fortresses. In proof of this the Noble Marquis recd several extracts from some document, but did not state which in support of his argument, and contended that this country was bound to respect the independence of llol land, and that it was a great error in our foreign policy to acquiesce in the demolition of the Belgian fortresses. He next proceeded to maintain, that as Holland was no party to the treaty respecting the fortresses, she might. claim restitution of those colonies which she had ceded in con sequence of her union with Belgium. He need not, he trusted, tell their Lordships that his object in these re marks was to obtain information, for he feared that the present Government were under the influence of an anxious desire to embrace France too closely, erroneously imagin ing, that if we were at peace with France, we were sure to be so with the rest of the world. There were, more over, the most open and undisguised consultations between the British Government and the French Ambassador in this country on all matters of European policy; and it would almost seem as if they could do nothing without his leave—without the leave of that diplomatist, who had pre sented to the First Consul the well-known memorial of the 14th Brumaire, year 11. Looking, then, to all those circumstances, lie confessed be could not help feeling strongly on the subject of the foreign policy of this country; and so feeling, lie should ill discharge Isis duty if he did n t freely give expression to his sentiments. The instruc tions and the documents to which those negociations gave rise would be of great importance ; and if any Noble Lord it his side of the House should hereafter hold the portfolio of Foreign Affairs, some curious information might be disclosed. He should certainly like to see laid before the House the private letter which passed upon the subject be tween the Noble Earl and M. Casimir Perier.—(A laugh.) He begged to know why the papers called for respecting Portugal had not been produced ? He had a right to com plain that the present Government, since they came into office, had constantly persevered in withholding from their Lordships all information respecting the foreign relations of time country. He concluded, by moving " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be pleased to order to be laid before the House, copies or extracts froni the communications of his Ma jesty's Government with the Governments of France and Belgium, respecting the employment of French officers by the latter Government for the avowed purpose of disciplin ing and organizing the Belgian army." - Lord GODERICH was afraid that, in the few obser vations which he should have the honour of addressing to their Lordships, he should be under the necessity of in flicting a grievous disappointment upon his Noble Friend who had brought forward this motion. His Noble Friend appeared to think that it was the duty of the Government on this occasion to take an opportunity of entering into a ge neral discussion of a most discursive nature not only upon every point connected with the motion of rrkoble Friend, but also upon every other point which his Ale Friend had raised with regard to Portugal, to France, and, indeed, ' with regard to the foreign policy of this rind of all other countries in Europe. Now he must be allowed to tell his Noble Friend, that either he or his Noble Friend hail alto gether mistaken the duty of an Administration, circum stanced as the present was, and that he should, far from embracing, take care to avoid the opportunity which his Noble Friend had so temptingly furnished him with. A discussion like that in which his Noble Friend had em barked, was not only inconvenient, but even painful to the Government, under existing circumstances, because there was no other mode by which they could vindicate them selves from the imputations which his Noble Friend had east upon them, than to abandon their duty by entering into explanations which would be in the highest possible degree detrimental to the public interest.—(Cheers.) His of those f ac ts which were necessary for the vindication of public duty restrained him from entering into the statement himself and his colleagues ; and his Noble Friend, there fore, mi.st be left in the enjoyment of all the triumph he found in casting imputations which were not the less un founded because it happened to be necessary that the public service required that the refutation of them should be de layed, H e hardly knew how to deal with the motion of his Noble Friend, or, he should rather say, with the speech of his Noble Friend. If he admitted any of the proposi tions which his Noble Friend had laid down, then his Noble Friend would claim credit to himself for having drawn correct inferences from those propositions ; and if he gave his Noble Friend any explanation at all, his Noble Friend would he sure to ask for more. His Noble Friend ap peared t o think that discussions of this nature were the easiest possible. —(" No, no," fr om L or d L ONDONDERRY. ) No: he knew that his Noble Friend had not said so ; but then the clear and obvious inference from the course which his Noble Friend had pursued was, that nothing could be so easy as to discuss, publicly, negotiations which, besides being the most important and most delicate possible, were not y e t completed. He must contend that nue was not a fair course of proceeding, and that there Wa ae little of justice as of good reasoning in his Noble Fr:entl's saying, ,6 lf you do not give me the information I ask, than the accusations I make against you must be true This, he said, was not fair, because., though his Noble Kier al would doubtless be very much gratified w i t h t h e informitioe, yet his Noble Friend ought to know that it was information which the Ministers were bound in duty not to give him. —(Hear, hear.) Unless his Noble Friend could prove that it was fair to assail an opponent whose hands were tied, his Noble Friend must fail in demonstrating that the course of his proceeding was not unfair. This, then, was his answer to the motion of his Noble Friend— (Cheers) —and with this answer he should cheerfully throw himself upon the good sense and justice of their Lordships, but that he felt himself called upon to advert to one or two points of his Noble Friend's speech. The first of these points--though the most insigniticaet of 1117;1s:1 —.which he felt himself call e d u p on t o not i ce was —his Noble Friend had asked him how it hap., nied that he, who had been a party to, and a coadjutor i n , the great settlement of Europe in could agree with his Noble Friend at the head of the Ad ministration in the observations which his Noble Friend had made against many portions of that settlement.— N ov he assured his Noble Friend that he (Lord Lon donderry-) had given him credit for a part which lie h a d not taken in that settlement. He was not even a member of the Cabinet at that time, although, through t i re Kindness and attention of a relative of his Noble Friend, he had been made acquainted with the grounds of that settlement. He had no hesitation in saying, farther, that he cordially agreed it; that settlement, not because he thought best settlement, but because he thought that lt'ist the b es t hest which could he effected under ex isting circumstances, He nliglit have thought that, with re gard to many part s o f i t, a much better settlement m i ght have been made, and hi s Noble Friend was m i sta k en i f he sup posed that others, who were really what he was not— parties to the settlement—did en'ertain the same oeje,ic. - 0 ; I , un il n i e t dne t t r i , questionre l a r l tl l t t ‘ i v me li a vtAry:a:Suas''t circumstances r n l c . o e u t a n t l ' s y s t a n t t i c e e m i s n e i l n i t c b h that mustt choeute(l:fltresnetent:aeltesi met whether, s te t h r e bneltal-,:tre matters e ( a )f n s n P o o l f m a il c o tl m s iiy be considered in order to make any settlement at all. ill, According to tire limited means of judg ment at the One ; he .bought that the __(Hear, hear.) m ent which he best settlement tha.i was forming c t e an sh v a a o t s e p v i opinion, o e :n he e m a a n d u a s e t e i aftere that judgment, or whether he retained that judg b as a Minister, he was not called upon to look hack to what things were seventeen years ago, and act in con furmity tti ith them, but, it was his business, and the business4s of every other Alinister, to look at e xisting circtutrtances, and to dell with them. as prudence, and justice,, 411( 1. the national interest required.— 0 2heel. " But his Noble Friend bad said to him further, " flow could you, a party to the great settlement of Eu rope in 1814, agree to the separation of Belgium from Holland ?" This was really a most extraordinary ques tion. Had he or had any of his colleagues been parties to this separation ? Did they not find that separation revolution i tion, on th e i r access i on t o in t. e France — a C n h d e e i r n s .) Belgium lHad te His Noble F r i en d must , upon a ocu effected offi.mt c ephef found a?_r when ebso(e tcn t ht h h t et i ehAres c d. a n) m i i e n moment's reflection, see that the present Government could have no hand in consenting to either of these events, and he could assure his Noble Friend that the one great object of himself and his colleagues had been to render those events as innocuous as it was possible to render changes so important and so extensive as these changes were ; and he need hardly observe that all changes which were sudden in their advent, and extensive in their effects, [night, though tending to the most beneficial, lead to the most disastrous results if not watched over.—(Hear, hear.) Far be it from him to blame any one who had been a party to these events, and he had made these ob servations fur no other purpose than to show how unrea sonable was the imputation of inconsistency which his Noble Friend had been pleased to make against him.— (Cheers.) Another part of his Noble Friend's speech to which he desired to advert was that which related to Prince Talleyrand, whom his Noble Friend had supposed to have great influence upon the councils of this country, and whom, proceeding on that supposition, and span certain parts of that illustrious person's past life, his Noble Friend had thought he was justified in pursuing with the most acrimonious animad version, although an Ambassador from a friendly Power. —(Loud cries of " hear.") His Noble Friend, to do him justice, had not dipped his arrows so deeply in gall on this as on a former occasion; but still he must say that his Noble Friend had, even on this occasion, indulged in lan guage the most imprudent and the most indiscreet, that any public man could be betrayed into with regard to the Ambassador of a friendly Power.—(Cheers.) He would not willingly have touched upon this part of his Noble Friend's speech, because he thought that the sooner it was forgotten the better ; but then, if he were silent with re gard to . it, it might be supposed that the :Government were of opinion that these animadversions were not mis placed ; and if that were the case, the plain inference was, that Prince Talleyrand ought not to be allowed to remain here. If the Government entertained the same opinioi. as his Noble Friend of Prince Talleyrand, it would be their duty to represent to his Majesty the King of the French, that they could not transact business with such a person. He felt it necessary, therefore, to speak as be had spoken respecting these aspersions of the character of an individual whose station ought to have shielded him from such an assault.—(Cheers.) He knew that his Noble Friend would say that, because he protested against this indiscreet, and imprudent, and unjustifiable language, the Government were truckling to France. Let him, however, remind his Noble Friend, that Prince Talleyrand had been the Minister of the last two Kings of France ; and the Prince Talleyrand had also a large and important share in the deliberations of the Congress of Vienna—the result of which deliberations the Noble Marquis thought so wise and so good.—(Cheers.) Surely the Noble Mar quis might have thought of these facts ; but if be had, he would never have entered upon the unjust, as well as the invidious, occupation of ransacking every portion of Prince Talleyrand's life, and bringing up in judgment against him, as present deeds and as acts of this day, transactions which had taken place when the circumstances of France were so different, and when no man could act as his reason or his inc,ination dictated, but as the strong and uncontroul able tide of affairs compelled him to fashion his course.— (Cheers.) He should be glad to meet in detail if he could the charge of his Noble Friend, that this Government was truckling to France ; but his Noble Friend had found the justification of that charge in a heap of measures and transactions which his Noble Friend had so huddled toge gether, that he (Lord Goderich) confessed he could see nothing but confusion in them. With the charge, there fore, and with that only, was it po-sible for him to deal. In the outset he indignantly denied that there was the slightest ground for the accusation.—(Cheers.) The con duct of this Government towards France bad been regu lated only by considerations of amity and justice, which considerations had regulated their conduct towards every other Power; and never, he was happy to say, had there been a time at which a more cordial unanimity existed between a Government of this country and the re presentative of all the great Powers of Europe than the present moment.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend had, in deed, stigmatized the policy of the Government in the harshest terms, and hail given his advice as to what their policy ought to be, and he 'hoped that no future Ministers would be absurd enough to take his Noble Friend's advice, however kindly it might be offered; and lie could assure their Lordships, that the present Government to whom that advice was offered in any but terms of friendship, would never dream of taking his Noble Friend to their councils.---(Cheers and laughter.) He had only now to notice the nature of the information which his Noble Friend sought to acquire by this motion, which informa tion related to the intention of King Leopold, to include in Isis service foreign officers, and, among those, French offi cers. He had already stated that the public in'erest pre cluded hint from meeting this subject as it ought to be met. Allow him, however, to observe, that it was by no means a matter of course that an independent State—for Bel gium was an independent State, however difficult might be the circumstances by which it was surrounded— should be interfered with by any other power for the purpose of preventing it from taking into its mili tary service foreign officers.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed, this, which his Noble Friend complained of as an intention of King Leopold, was a common practice with other sovereigns, he might almost say an universal prac tice. There was nothing new in it ; but, on the contrary, some of the most eminent soldiers who had led armies to battle had not been natives of the countries whose forces they commanded.—(Hear, hear.) This was particularly the case with Russia, among whose commanders who had not been Russians, it would be sufficient to mention General Diebitsch and Admiral Greig. His Noble Friend had, perhaps, forgotten that it was under the auspices of the latter that the Russians first attempted to form a navy. The same was true, with regard to Austria, to Prussia, to Spain; and, indeed, to every nation in the world. He need hardly observe that Holland was not excluded from this observation ; or, be should rather say, that her forces had more commonly been led by foreigners than by Dutchmen. Gen. Chassk, too, he believed was a Frenchman. Here a Noble Lord, either the Loan CHANCELLOR or some other Noble Lord in his vicinity, made an observe , lion ; but in a tone so low that it was not heard at the bar. Lord GonEetcet, too, appeared not to 1,: - .ve ob served it, and was continuing his speech, when The Marquis of LONDOND!4RRY ros.:: and said,— "My Lords, I rise to order. I beg to put it to the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, whether it is orderly for a Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, or for any other Noble Lord, to prompt another Noble Lord when he is speaking. I beg to put this question to the Noble and Learned Lard." The LORD CHANCELLOR—Now, my Lords, I beg to state to you, once for all, that I will not sit here to be bothered with questions which emanate from the ridicu lous ideas of certain absurd individuals, wbe, (...hunot or will not see any thing however clear, t;nderstand any thing however intelligible ; and who, whether a Noble Lord is engaged in conver4ation, or whether he addresses the House lipmi his legs, seem, by an unhappy i*:mity of nature, to be limentubly incap icitited front understanding what is going on. I beg moreavtdr to state to the Noble Marquis (Londonderry), whom I have in my eye, that for the future I will answer no question of his—will give him no information whatsoever. If the Noble Lord &O i l ag grieved at any thing I may happen to do, let l„im proceed against me by a vote of censure, arAd trust I shall know how to defend myselr, but whi answer no more of his questions. - The Marquis of LONDONDERRY._I only ash Qd the Noble Lord a question as to a point of o7ider, which I sonal and offensive eNv,renionQ whi c h th e N o bl e and conceive that I bad a perfect right to 40, A s to the per • Learned Lord has thougrit proper to use towards me, I be & to sell the - Noble and Learned Lord that I shall be Els,t/ to hear them repeated in another place, and-- t The Duke of RICHMOND—My Lordt, zise to order. I move that the words of the Noble 4,larquis be taken down. The LORD CHANCE‘LOR:--No ; I trust that my Noble Friend w;lit withdriw that motion, and allow co then aisn,otthheart:_starsictthlye i t t t iaing, p a e li r s h u a r p d s , , a to nd y t a quite as much out of ordek as o in u s r ig L n o i !L a i n ! nrott•iter:to troe answer. 2 tq' where o n sthpeeakpionign,t for pronpt o o n r e de; obie ll 4 l ,o c i tin i s o wer 9A out of 100 of the things which day after oty . p 4 ss in this House, —or perhaps I am wrong even 41 allowing that one of every 100 of those thing!, wqd be within the strict Noble Marquis oaili it,—is line of order if each weio : - . s ubjected to the strict test of the letter of that, line.. As an illustration, let me observe ; tktat if e,, e strict ruts of order had been observed, I might to have called the Noble Marquis to order when, in rising to put a question about Belgiiirc, he Quirk a speech about Spain, and Poly,iga!,4 Rnd Holland, and France, and Prince Talleyrand 4ri,a thousand other matters.—(Hear, and a laugh.) As to the hint which the Noble Marquis has thrown out to me,—filling as I do the highest office in the land,—and in a public assembly tike the pre sent, where such hints are twt t;sually given,.aa to that my Lords, I have only to say, that it has never Lef n ns habit to say in one place any thing which I woald not repeat in another ; and that it is not likely that I should fan into that habit now. The Duke of RICHMOND—I shall certainly withdraw , Ity motion, at the request of my Noble Friend. lam sire that the Noble Marquis, when he talks of order, must ,ee that nothing can, by possibility, be more disorderly th in for a Noble Lord to rise in his place, and invite the Lord Chancellor,—or, indeed, any other Noble Lord. to fight a duel ; for such was the meaning of the words of the N ible Marquis, and it is of no use mincing the matter...._ (Cheers and laughter.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose again, and Lord Goderich with him. The former attempted to address the House, but Lord HOLLAND said, that he also must rise to order. When a Noble Lord was interrupted upon a point of order,—as his Noble Friend (Lord Goderich) had been,—.. that Noble Lord bad a right to be first heard. Lord GODERICH had some difficulty in speaking to the point of order, and had risen for the purpose of closing those observations which he was addressing to their Lord ships when he was interrupted by his Noble Friend. He must, however, say, that if the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack had made any observation, not one word of that observation had reached him. He would not detain their Lordships any farther than to observe, that he might add to the catalogue of officers in the service of countries sf which they were not natives, the Duke of Saxe-Weimar, whom every one knew not to be a native of Holland. If, then, the practice of employing foreign officers was common to every power in Europe, surely there must be a very strong case made out before one country could be justified iu in t-rfering with an independent Power for the purpose of pre venting that Power from indulging a practice which had not been denied to any other sovereign. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that in the very few words which he had to offer on this subject, he could assure the Noble Lords opposite that nothing could be arther from his wish than to embarrass the Govern ment, or to disturb that good understanding which, he was elost happy to hear, prevailed between this and the Go vernments of the other Powers of Europe. lie must further assure their Lordship. that there was no man in , his country more desirous than he was to witness the preservation of peace, not only between England and France, but all over Europe. He might differ with the Noble Lords opposite as to the best mode of preserving that peace, but be certainly did not differ from them as to the necessity of preserving it, and he should most assuredly do nothing to hamper or to obstruct them in their ex ertions for the attainment of that most desirable of all objects. At the same time be was free to confess, that sis view of the subject before them—which was the ens sloyment of French officers in the Belgian army — was different from that taken by the Noble Lord who had just sat down. Before, however, he stated what his view of the subject was, he must be allowed to say a few words respecting an ill us trious i n di v id ua l (P r i nce T a ll eyran d) , who had been so strongly animadverted up on by hi s N o bl e Friend near him. True it was that that ildustrious indi vidual had enjoyed, in a very high degree, the confidence of his Noble Friend's deceased relative; and true it also was, that none of the great measures which had been resolved upon at Vienna and at Paris had been concerted or carried on without the intervention of that illustrious person. He had no hesitation in saying that both at that time, in every me of the great transactions which took place then, and n every transaction in which he had been engaged with Prince Talleyrand since, the latest of which had occurred luring the short period in which he (the Duke of Wel angton) had been in his Majesty's councils after the late revolution in France,—he had no hesitation, he said, in declaring, that in all those transactions, front the first to the last of them, no noon could have conducted himself with more firmness and ability with regard to his own country, or with more uprightness and honour in all his communications with the Minister. of other countries, than Prince Talleyrand.—(Cheers.) They had heard a flood deal of Prince Talleyrand from many quarters, hut he felt himself bound to declare it to be his sincere and con scientious belief that no man's public and private character had ever been so much belied as both the public and the private character of that illustrious individual had been...—. (Much cheering.) He had thought it necessary, in corn_ won justice, to say this much of an individual respecting , vhose conduct and character he had no small means of forming a judgment. And now, as to the subject before their Lordships.—He could but remind their Lordships that it was one in which the interests of Europe at large were materially involved, though we had taken the greatest part in it. When King Leopold left this country, he had congratulated their Lordships upon the proof which his Majesty then gave of his desire to be an independent Sovereign. He believed that it was the intention of Government that he should continue in dependent, as well of this as all other Powers. He firmly believed, moreover, that it was owing to our Government that the French army had been withdrawn from Belgium, and that the Government had insisted upon the with drawal, from the conviction that King Leopold could not h e independent while that army remained. It was his opinion that titers Lever was in any part of the history of the world a period at which it would he -more easy than at the present for the independent sovereign .if an independent state to assume a station in. dependent of all the world, as a neutral state of Europe. This it was at present in the power of King Leopold to do, but it might not be in his power to do so few months hence, for the events of a few months might make this as difficult as it LOW .vas easy. The Noble Lord who had just sat down had said, thet, as an inde pendent sovereign, King Leopold had a right to take foreign officers into his service, and the Noble Lord had instanced the practice of other countries in proof of this position. Now, allow him to observe, that if Belgium were like Prussia or Roseia, which bad very large armies, the employment of foreign officers would not be a matter of much consequence, because the nuns her of them must bear a small proportion to the number of native officers, and a still smaller proportion to the number of the troops. Belgium, however, bed an army of not more than 20,000 or 30,000 at most. Now see what thu officer of a regiment was : he was the very mind and soul of his soldiers. Let them look at their own Acts of Parliament, and they would find that by the law of England foreign officers were not allowed to serve our piny, And why had such Acts been posed ? It was because we were sensible of how vast an influence the (Acerb must necessarilyhave over the soldiers they colon - landed. Such, too, haul been the law of Bel gium until it was altered at the itstance of the King. It w a s said that there were stow in Be/glues as many as 400 foreign officers. HQ had heard, too,—he should be glad to learn that this was not true,—that 200 cuirassiers had entered Tutarr.ay, that there were as many as 800 at Liege, and 30,C, or 400 in Ath. These reports might be erro ineous, but the statements with regard to the officers rested upon good authority. They knew that French officers had received permission from the King of the French to serve in Belgium ; bqt upon what condition ? Why, the con dition was, that they should wear the French uniform and wear their national cockade. Theae was another point, too, connected with this suts3ecs, which ought not to be overlooked. General 1 3,elliard, nue of those officers, was not only a soldier of well•known military talents, but he happened ulsa ea he the French Ambassador at Brussels. hear.) The Noble Lord had said that King Leopold was an independent Prince. Independeuo What, a with an army of 20,Q,Ce1l soldiers, officered by Frenchmen ? The thing was inotseasible!—(Hear, hear.) B u t th e y load been told thS t the independence of the King of Belgium was to ha guaranteed by England wad by the other great Powers of E u r o p e . Thi s , h owever, was aga i n i mposs i ble. , for there could be no such guarantee if the King of Belgium was to have an army sea constituted. He supposed that this plan of officezing the Belgian army with Frenchmen was a selaseitute for the use of French troops. If so, be , must be allow e d t o say, t h at t h e substitute haul been most unwisely ch osen . B ut this was not all. By the pr o p o s e d arrangements th e Netliellauds were to constitut e a neu t ra l state. H e did nut .suarrel with this arrange:talent, consi dering th e da tealt i es which would stand in the way of any °thee arrangement; and in spite of th e i nc onveniences which mi g ht resu l t f rom it to the other parts of Europe— inconvenience s s o w hi c h h e w a s by no means insensible-ea/4e wally believed that the arrangement would be fa s saad to answer if it were carried into strict exesestian, especially by Frances The Netherlands, how ever, could n e v e r be n neutralstate with such an army as it was now proposal ee, give to King Leopold, and he was sure it was tr i Atv p,ecesaary to allude to these considerations ia ordevec, Awaken the Noble Lords opposite to a sense of tk,a r .. impossibility of the thing. No one could be more de : sieoas than he was to see this arrangement succeed, in or der that the anxiety of *.urope might no longer be in tently fixed noon, that part of the world ; but it never could snoceed if this military plan were allowed to esaOn. There sees yet. Ppotk.er point in which he should wish to French put this ealiect, and that was, that the as ht ne mieht ~ A cers was altogether unnecessiatys Heu ' this subject, be speak with some degree of acur k ae nc Y: ing a little of that cause he had oppo Vasa the unfortunate dispute country and of i,ta army. sPhen hroke out, and the expedi between Uoiland and Belg ium iost Brussels failed, the milt tic,n of Prince Frederick fig • ct)ontr C. separated. Al . the Be'g'art tary force of the two it •I in Belgium, and was well known that officers remaine d they had seen must qualify them for the datite the service .httgwe o.fFren