The Sun. — London, England, 1834-08-12 00:00:00

--------..'.-.l< the head of the H° . t h a t occasion-- h ti me urre d e, Right Non. Gentle `4.1 was glad to see it ..or n one could loolt rus t k ne w, what wet r he sa w that on' 'y—schen he 00 R i g ht Non. Gentle hat had been Dd! the Churc h of Pt f les the members or it mea sures with ties 'e, nor di d he consicle his side o f the licnne. had been , that tbeit ' sappointed arnbitioo. f the charg ; but if in their minds, shot iter than they 01:4 s i t i in which were their ro m the Oppoon.) blic opimor„,...(flee., ales say_ differing ia Grey)__rwuch atore ulatey and outht t° 'rom the Ministeriol ion of the reasonable generally found ]eir reasoning' fa,c°l' tage to others, Pere great a pre duct of d e but t lly ley woul eP`lj know what was sa' se who wish•ed tbe° e of the witheriag w em b ers of clisapr ild surely eildeacOr fallen. Tbeirrnea. : them discreditable' ject, which, he be: ayes, and alter Of could judge of then; now before then, rformance of tb c t ir llision between tue (Hear, hear.) iheY Igment, and in e°,'; ous petitions all'e. i n which the Pe a ; church in Eugl s a ion of these seriti 's lklinisters, s aril conscientious laat" 3t; which towas, t r of the subject, ,i 'nce.--(Laffaloteta he rose ; t a r e t space. He f rof ce of the subject' le Noble Earl she /ith the subject! hich its interests an preserved It. both sides o f the, ail'. ie against t h e nil l t—al though h 'et in a r e tat tot he a rsecou whiell fajesty's Minister; which, perbars, wlitic in the Sobs mess of the O r' ) to refrain f ir' sa id had, througll' id manly speech. to the deeP itt' il of view, and totbe nature whih Fay c as not merel' tll° dived, a yed, bu t the es' 5. onc e of the I ct, therefore, 1 eecl the las t sP Ps, it pos; right feeling b y mere r cuss them erit3 01 grave questios it )lving the dearet ;dy of our felloo. a question calling the subject t° nsac ked 10 006 ards his Maj not! ollestO d any • lie , 1 v animosity collo b expectations e, vi°us conduct a o ° such an o ccasi " the Noblegatl lust be permittertfollowing m 'e Possibly couc4 , subject whieb' a then briefly t'. ips' attention t° to intreat tberna ) to the Church, ost plenary ate ion to do,_ ' id to a sufferin( that he s boole zees of rejectid h a t if the effec, Prelates ata, elves for hacinf Bill. But first; entire l y a s pt ivernment, 0o 3 1 ) Bill as it to 11Y proposed igi i Bill introduc.en, ' !lord, to Lertai eace of trelanci/ ?' owner and for ad his pr o p an d ducernents r in the course °' all was the. B il l 1 the prineivo ss through ,_dtrit o w the War" lg for the lare b u t it was pot e agreed 0401 hear.) If it t ion , lose discre ,uld admit•" with %viol ile, great friend °1 ; Ireland, I',ho Home Dee' Hon. Baronet' for so 041;1' ion was t o v••• into effect at ince its intro itlsory princi, Noble friena t on the ]'pope, nder this 13ill, g law, should' t by reject Posal mae to .doubted laici 3achable title aPPeneci tb3t 9f the title in co nterr per cow, dispute, 10} ate poraoon o' ,CtUal pOSser , t very Ito' ' young ar' int of las v t o. at o ne ou nce an was ona. an the I )n d a cavil; f things 3 not casf t°, )e co The them. IV •oduced, 9.114 ~ b ee n, in I'7. eif It, propos lifficulty, b ~ misery, tif , civil idroil9 ; one yeary u% the o°, 'nought,d to no. a. regar something . collection. is, w as Of is, eipt of the 1p thinkin " g anen t, ai tha t e licitous in 'ate affrs. ers OVVfI • ne full 100 , ,e g lad ta ; n of those. and some..., ;aid, oodee ✓ 221 !i c es Yoo s sv 1 i de l •As , Ids, or tbe "i'ards' Be' d like to easily or as rega was asked was to re d himself that if the Irish landlord collected his rent with facility, he also would be able to collect it with facility when there was added to it the, in each instance, trifling amount that would be chargeable to hiin on account of what 'he as landlord may have paid for tithe ; and their Lordships, if they went into ommittee, would see that the details of the Bill furnished the landlord with every help:to enforce his claim. For these reasons he was decidedly of opinion that this measure would be of great benefit to the llrish Church, and th at t h e I r i sh clergy would do unwisely for aemselves not merely to reject, but to hesitate for an instant in accepting this Bill. B ut t h en h e m i ght be told that it was not so much the measure itself, be it ever so good, ever so safe for the State, ever so wholesome for the Church, ever so ne picessary f6r the peace of Ireland and the prosperity of the em re at large —all these considerations were beside the ques tion; for they only regarded the merits of the measure—they only regarded the thing about which they were discussing—they only regarded the interest of the country—they only regarded the duty of the Government--their Lordships' duty—the duty of the House of Commons • and are we, said Noble Lords, to he set aside that they might consider how the measure was proposed. " If it had been proposed by his Majesty's Ministers," said Noble Lords overflowing with candour, " we should have a greed t o i t at once ;" or, saie_ the Noble Baron, whom he (L ord Br oug h am) was sorry not to see in his place (Lord Ellenborough) if the Government would only bring in the Measur e it at first so wisely, so vigorously, so judiciously pro- Poneded, he would withdraw his opposition, and would not prop ose the alteration of a word or of a syllable. • Oh ! that he were often to be had in such a humour ! What measures of reform should he not look forward to passing triumphantly th rough that House ? Their Lordships should have enough the them Baron next session, if this happy frame of mind of tine Noble would continue without souring through the ,eag v acation. H e would p ledge himself that no human being nesides the Ki ng ' s Ministers, except those whose assistance two"n dulbe necessary in perfecting th e i r d e t a il s , s h ou ld h ave ledge of the measures they would bring forward for the lifpod o f the country. The Noble Baron should have Ministe al measures the le Ministerial easures, and ng but Minis terial measures —(Laughter)— m if he would but nothi con 113nti e to say that he Would be perfectly satisfied with them. di " h e feared t h at the Noble Baron's frame of mind would be fferent in January or February, next (before which, with all I'esPeet for th e i r Lordships, he had not the slightest desire t o thsee them) from what it now was. —( Cheers and laughter.) Well, em if su c h were the professions of Noble Lords, what made , and especially the Noble Earl who spoke lest, so indig ?Ant at the plan as it now stood ? He would not do anything so I tl lvitli ° l ls as to speculate-upon what would have been the sen ...niss,s 'itt of the Noble Earl and the Noble Baron had the Bill been brought up to them in the shape in which it was intro 'need into the House of Commons (hear, hear); but he could ;say help suspecting that there would have been something to d l a Y against it, that a few syllables and even a few words woul d rein b een altered. He could not believe that the second gar would have gone off quite so smoothly and placidly in tresent tense as it did in the preterpluperfect.—( Laugh . ter.) could a man did they could judge of; but what a man might, 13, should, or would have done they could not judge of, trot they could not even say what it would have been, no, osotriekLeinanwl h el :n t, a man himself told them, for he could not him th at • s ne lv• He therefore had a strong suspicion on his mind (TY' no chang e had been made in the Bill in the other House they should have had some words on the second t e , a rs dh lg, a few more in Committee, and more upon the bring -6 11 1 3 of the report—if, indeed, it would ever have been read waas:cond time, for as far as reason and principle went, there bi hnto a rgument that had been urged against the Bill to ka! which would not have been just as applicable to the Bill 1 t;deriginally introduced.—( Hear.) Was not the matter then r b e ~I led to this, that an important legislative enactment was . to 1, ration with open arms or repudiated with disgust, indig siinlen, and almost fury, not upon its own merits, but the me ofs, real or supposed, of an individual who, in the other House Parr al ters .lainent, had an hand in introducing one or two . material this in M e eaZ t r i e nt l ? s, and, as he maintained, amendments into He had heard somewhat to-night about degraded sh a t of debased Ministers, of their lowness in public ctima- W t ,, lt, and the expediency of their being humble in their own is:---Particularly had he heard this from the Noble Earl who •I;"4,liist sat down • but he did not think there was a more un ./iiinrt!lF course of Proceeding, a more degraded state, a more oflillliating posture, either for a man, a Minister, or a Member 3 , sas arliament, titan that there should exist one individual who him sto master of your motions as to make it sufficient . for Pr ose adopt a plan for you to approve it ;. for him to him for ef „ any proposition to make you against it; for . ter eisit forward an amendment to induce you to reject it ; not ha to say, Give me this, to make you say, You shall l land ave it ; for him to beg a boon for the clergy of re atith'h t i n make you deny it ; for him to entreat of i tou to th e „old mischief from the sister country—to save from ear t o ld mischief from the sister country._to save it from ta re 1010flts of civil war, to make you exclaim, " What ,: h 1 for civil war—what care I for gratifying the clergy all all th at care I about purchasing peace—what care Mr. n 4t---- ain I to degrade myself by taking a hmt . from tat, ."'Connell—shaehe dictate to me?" But he did dic neht,3,thetn, and the only difference between the oppo lane' n i this bill and his Majesty's Ministers was, that . the W lassti r came forward honestly and fairly, in a manly and direct ilier to yield to what he proposed; whilst the former, their sesoo,aPparently predominant, like a spoiled child, or boar ing lists: miss, who did this thing, or that thing, not because she si res ". but because her maid, her comrade, or her mistress de- ( t O her t o do to the contrary.—( Cheers and laughter.) He h a ; ,Lord Chancellor) had uniformly been one of those who tho4clared his opinion against that individual whenever he on 4, t his conduct called for censure at his hands. .No man had uTr side of the House—perhaps no man in Parliament . — oshiastd more of censur, less of management in the expression Whe,„°Pinions with respect to that Hon. and Learned Person Fel t '. 4 4 e had deemed it his duty, and a most painful one he had upon It to be whenever he had had to discharge it, to animadvert „ 11 O pinion ; but because he disapproved of his conduct-- co a d'se he greatly blamed and deeply lamented parts of his Pl, s i li t et as mischievous to Ireland, and wholly unworthy of his hs t i e alent S and abilities, to which he was always made to do aant e i he had entered into no bond—had no . cove- A e st%lth himself to allow Mr. O'Connell to govern him by Ish a ; I ' l 'e of contraries-4 Cheers and laughter)—to adopt titahrer he rejected, or reject whatever he approved of, t his, Y because those several censures would be opposed d o of t i c He held it to be his duty to consult for the goo 'khi e h l i s , realm, to advise his Sovereign in those things n ot l ess to the interests of the Crown and people, and . teae s t han anything else to consider what belonged to his oir ur ,,, a nd the peace of his dominions ; and if he (Lord kr ° . iVaril) knew and felt that a proposition which came from boon , Connell was an improvement on a measure he had it wait for he was neither so vain as to reject it because eas se .e°t his own plan, nor idiot so flagrant as to refuse it be lie , 1t Proceeded from one in whose conduct in all particulars aot - i ( 3 )a ld not agree. Nay, he would go further, and he should ha • 0 ac cused of truckling' to any man, when he said that, Wa rrin g th ' l ot tak e e Possibility of misconception, which, however could shoul d , e _ Place were nothing but the truth spoken (and here he Rain, under the opportunity of saying that interference, bar thlsee.ll Zire.rsflding, agreement , there was none whatever be icarrin, h " Uonnell and any part of . the Government) — :d, he e said, the possibility of a misconception . of . that t 4 at t , e lhould think that so far from its being au objection o 'tot e Ninument of which he approved on its merits that it came l l ese ' P. O'Connell and his party, it would, looking to the fo r e of Ir e ' th e and and the greater chance of tranquillity there . 11 4 aiss e _ r ext six months, be an additional reason for his opening dio at .;"s to receive that amendment.—( Hear.) But extraor alkl 1: as had been the manner altogether in which that Hon. Rath tiearn.ed Gentleman's name had been alluded to, there I . t that°t•hing which astonished him more than to hear it s us tim e o p Verll lto _, 1 day made a matter of charge . against the late sea was it that Mr. O'Connell had received a silk gown. hon eur as it ,the rule of the profession to which he had the it eb le be tong, and from which the title borne by the a l osts e ar t i (Mansfield) who had brought the charge, derived_ i ll. e t he ra n k have its honourable distinctions . made matter t f ( p , 4, affic ? When a gentleman attained the s and (2, the eminence that had been reached by Mr. ho 4 411 tou r when he received his patent of precedence, that O's, b e . 'clati Il e ame right. It was not the bare right of Il . r. - Nd, , but the right of him whose business was im etcba cif th e si stra ss „, courts of justice whose proceedings . were '4ti,,, ric e upon',i by its refusal. He spoke with some expe ehe d this subject, for he had in his own person ex- De r . 06 the i nconveniences which it was wished to make v litieal ()Innen suffer from political feeling. But it was not oi r e le osl th e "ling in the case of his Noble and Learned a. ltl vati alt jt Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench, whose ( I f e ll a u was a proud thing for him to see, for it was as hi s e to his own merits as to the love and . veneration . s aid, c ount s s al . in the .3 7 as well as of his profession —it was not, he oil,ti em fe „instances of his Noble Friend and himself, mere : foul a rng, but some miserable wretched intrigue, some stt ald riot slander of some contemptible miscreant whom he to a ,had ss ila s nl e - ---whom pure accident, without the slight duty -. 4! Sa l ' °I merit, had given an influence which his per -1(,: on hi s arising'from the mere discharge of a professional ` t 'l ) II 13 MO e ver tra,elf, rd Brougham's) part, induced him to use, to In s 4fis r , • and his Noble Friend out of that rank which rs all \ 1 - , ,, ord )13nr the ,profession_said they . had . a right to. It was asci f, rd more-nu.gnams) thorough conviction, however, that no t irkso eery , "'earn ed s , . roe under the circumstance than his Noble the against criend then at the head of the Court of Chan N I sli ghte whom he had not in that Court ever whispered - t ee or elev :L bla me. The consequence, however, was,.t at q. Ilse th e y Barristers hi s • uit lost all their business I Nw Oil ewe It gAI ere senior to him and he could not lead them. Wa s „ r. ~, , tli mo m ore Connell, therefore his patent of precedence to l Z it • H e t han justice to him, to ' his profession, and to his noess kre equ e 'would now beg to say a few words upon the to e th t of rejecting this Bill. He could not quite 1 t4 4 te a rt a uthe nolleetion of tithes would be altogether so des- It if A te j h. hinednertotkinig, as his Noble Friend th . e Secretary . of ot e t olill wer, "to Department appeared to think it would be h e , r o .. e olie __ e thrown out. 'I hat the clergy would be ever out i 4 ul the whole was impossible, and even any thing sort of t l te Per cent. now offered them would be quite sort littl e question But he nevertheless had hopes that all _ ies in mi g ht be collected by the governing to th4ttelaptsm Ireland exerting themselves to put down k r e law, ' to violence alr outrages, all resistance, Illhear:Bl:tt'3l,ldss'ibility' ~ j,,„ Rut still of when they had cases like that of which Zda t . e as a s o IS'ern, they could not but feel apprehensive that tithe not being collected. The letter t ' t r eoli: th* Bivi koiPndbyprtehveaileeldergaylsoofin but he aOtrieett'he. chiefly interested. No do lpr u rtes , s a a ; Ik ho w g °I Bish op Ireland a t 1 n ° roec ofmr:eovonetgds jti,tie , till lll ad e silo In ' of a different d . t he et e dr shout l ee to k force had been adverte to , 1 1 cie s . aw th now what representations had been ad le a ' ern forth. be the opponents He should like to know, also, what p' iu.nt of telling each of them that they l e s t on pos , .ents of this bill in Ireland would say,' if he Q' of ~ arh a rs.ss, - • the law met next year, to the mercy or the to collect the tithes as they could. The , 'Government, he would tell them, would pledge itself to pre vent outrage, to maintain the law ; but there were things which the Government could not do, and which the law would not authorise. The clergy could seize cattle in a field, but they could not break the lock or bar of a cabin to get at them. The clergy might seize chairs and tables, but the Government could not ensure purchasers—(Hear) —chairs and tables unsold and tithes unpaid would not enable the clergy to pay the 160,0001. which was due from them to the Government on the Ist of November next.--(Cries of " hear, hear.") And he would have clergymen wh ) had estates bear in mind that the Government had a general security on all this pro perty for the repayment of the loan of last year. Nor would it be in the power of the Government to remit payment ; for the law compelled them to enforce it. Perhaps their Lord ships expected that the Commons would pass a Bill to undo the mischief which their Lordships' rejection of this measure might occasion ; but what reason had they to expect that the Commons would be so meek—he would not say so forgiving, for no harm would be done to them—but so forgetful of whose had been the fault, as to say, " Oh, never mind, let us give another million or two of the people's money to repair the evil done by the Lords ?" He was so far from being sure that this would be said, that he rather thought they should get abuse without money.—( Cheers and laughter.) It was very easy, no doubt, for Noble Lords, who were not to suffer by the re jection of this Bill, to talk bravely of doing their duty ; but at whose expense were they brave ? At the expense of the poor Protestant Clergy of Ireland. They might vote by proxy, but they had no right to be bold by proxy, and yet Noble Lords now proposed to be bold in the person of the Irish Cler gyman.—( Cheers and laughter.) They were firm, resolute, and determined ; but another was to undergo the risk. They ran all hazards in the world ; they brilliantly and bravely proved their courage in the person of the Irish parson.—(Renewed cheers.) Never mind that the Irish clergy starve, since all that lay upon them was the charge of having been mistaken in their calculations. A Noble Earl had spoken of what he de scribed to be the overwhelming influence of the Dissenters at the present period. Now he (the Lord Chancellor) allowed . that the influence of th e Di ssenters h a d i ncrease d s i nce t h e Re form Bill ; for the Dissenters had never been owners of bo roughs, and therefore by a comparison with those who had been so their influence was increased ; nor had the Dissenters till the passing of the Reform Bill been extensively repre sented in towns ; but to say that the influence of the Dis senters preponderated, or that it at all approached to a balance in the House of Commons, with the influence of the Established Church was a most untenable proposition. The Noble Earl :had - also talked of the great unpopularity and odium, and want of repute of his Majesty's Ministers; and it was curious that the Noble Earl's illustration of the alleged fact was, that even the friends of his Majesty's Mi, nisters were displeased with them. Now, the cause of this complaint, or this animosity, if the Noble Earl sup posed it to be so, of the friends of his Majesty's Ministers was, not that they went too far, but that they did not go far enough. " You have given us only one reform," they exclaimed, " and we want twenty." Then the illustration of the Noble Earl was followed up by what he termed the " withering" fact of his Majesty's Ministers having got the approbation of Mr. O'Connell. Now he (the Lord Chancel lor) would take it for granted that his Majesty's Ministers were as unpopular as that Noble Earl thought, or wished them to be. He would take it for granted that they were unpopu lar with the reformers, that they were unpopular with the conservatives--that they were unpopular with the ultra-demo crats—that they were unpopular with the ultra-aristocrat:-- that they were unpopular with men of all parties and persua sions, in and out of Parliament. Taking all this for granted, then he (the Lord Chancellor) would say, that there must be a great fund of floating popularity some where—( A laugh)— a popularity belonging to some statesmen yet unknown, and yet unborn.—(A laugh.) His Majesty's Ministers had no popularity ; Mr. O'Connell had no popularity (except in Ire land); had the Noble Lords who sat on the benches on his left ?—( A laugh.) Who, and when was the man to arise, who was to enjoy all this stock of unclaimed popularity ; who was to be the gaze and admiration of the whole country ? For himself he looked not to popularity ; he looked only to mea sures. On those measures he must prepare to stand or fall with his colleagues. He would continue to serve his King while his Majesty was pleased to repose confidence in him ; he would continue to serve his country till he had lost the con fidence of that country. While, however, the measures which he proposed or supported proceeded from an honest anxiety for the public good, he should never despair of a favourable judg ment from his countrymen. The Duke of WELLINGTON entirely concurred with the Noble and Learned Lord, that this was one of the mast important measures that had ever been brought under the con sideration of Parliament, and that it behoved their Lordships to consider it with the utmost attention ; and more especially with reference to its probable effect on the Church of Ireland. The Noble and Learned Lord approved of the measure en tirely as it at present stood. To him (the Duke of Welling ton) it was surprising, such being the case, that the Noble and Learned Lord could have approved of the measure as it was originally introduced. For nothing could be more evi dent than that the Noble and Learned Lord and his colleagues had brought forward in the first instance a measure entirely distinct in principle, entirely distinct in practice, entirely dis tinct in all its bearings and relations, from the measure which was now under their Lordships' consideration. If he could show that the measure now before their Lordships was completely distinct and different from the measure which the Noble and Learned Lord and his colleagues had in troduced at art early period of the session, he should con sider that he had established a claim on the Noble and Learned Lord to throw out the present measure, and to re-propose its predecessor. It was certainly an additional cause of regret at the secession of certain Members from his Majesty's Government, that that secession should be imme diately followed by the extensive and injurious alterations which had been made in the Irish Tithe Bill. The first point in the Bill under consideration, of which he strongly disap proved, was that it placed the parochial clergy of the Church of England in Ireland in a position of stipendiary dependence on his Majesty's Government.--( Hear, hear.) Nothing could be more evident. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests were, under the direction of the Ecclesiastical Commission, to pay those clergymen their incomes, and the deficiencies were to be made good out of the Consolidated Fund. Surely this was to render the clergy stipendiary dependents on his Ma jesty's Government. The Noble and Learned Lord, however, told their Lordships that the clergy of Ireland could not lay their hands on their property. No, certainly, unless his Ma jesty's Government preserved peace in Ireland.--( Hear.) If his Majesty's Government preserved peace in Ireland, the clergy would be able to lay their hands on their property. The disturbances in Ireland were pleaded as the justification for the present measure. Now, in his opinion, the distur bances in Ireland depended entirely on his Majesty's Govern ment.—( Hear, hear.) No man could approve of the mea sures which his Majesty's Government had adopted towards Ireland. If they had acted in the first instance with energy— if they had carried into execution the Proclamation Act as they ought—if they had not given a patent of precedence to a gentleman who had been coavicted of a misdemeanour—if they had not rewarded a gentleman who had flown in the face of his Majesty, and. had been convicted of a misdemeanour, Ireland would not be in the state in which it was at the present moment.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He would now institute a short comparison between the measures which had been intro duced by his Majesty's Government into the other House of Parliament at the commencement of the Session, and the mea sure which was now submitted to their Lordship's considera tion. The principles of the measure introduced by his Ma jesty's Government at the commencement of the Session, were first to give a value to tithe property by vindicating the law, and then by degrees to convert that property into a rent charge, with a view to its final redemption, By that measure the clergy were to be stipendiaries only for a certain limited period, until tithe should be converted into land. Such was the measure originally proposed ; what was the measure now submitted to their Lordship's consideration ? Not a word was to be found in it about the vindication of the law ; that was en tirely laid aside. In order to tranquillize the peasantry of Ireland, who had been in a state of disturbance for three years, a pretence was to be made of abandoning two-fifths of the tithe, and the burden of payment was to be enforced on the landowners, who were to have forty per cent. for taking it; and the peasantry would eventually derive no benefit whatever from the arrangement. The Noble Duke here entered into a history of the divisions in the House of Commons on the Bill as it originally stood ; maintaining, that if his Majesty's Go vernment had pleased, they might have carried the original Bill triumphantly through that House ; and that it, in fact, was the minority that sanctioned the measure now under their Lordships' consideration. Who that knew the circumstances of the case could for a moment believe that the money to be advanced by the Consolidated Fund would ever be paid back by the Ecclesiastical Fund in Ireland ? The thing was abso lutely, impossible. That Fund which was derived from two sources, could never meet the charge which the present measure imposed upon it. It was undoubtedly true that the Clergy of Ireland, in the existing circumstances of Ireland, would run a great risk of not receiving their due : but he must say, that, in his opinion, they would, except in some par ticular cases, run as great a risk under the proposed Bill. There was another part of the proposed Bill in which it dif fered most disadvantageously from the bill introduced at the commencement of the session. By the Bill which had been introduced last year by his Right Hon. Friend, the composi tion for tithes in Ireland had been settled. There were clauses in the present Bill, however, which upset every arrangement of that kind, and that on most futile grounds, and in a way only calculat e d to excite irritation. Upon the whole, the Bill was one to which he felt it to be utterly impossible to give his support. The Earl of RIPON hoped their Lordships would pardon him if he addressed them shortly on this subject. He was not sure that what he was about to say would be satisfactory to their Lordships. He did not feel it satisfactory to himself, and considerations of duty alone induced him to say it. He had heard with very great Surprise that part of the speech of his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, in which his Noble and Learned Friend had endeavoured to make out that the Bill under their Lordships' consideration was in principle the same as the Bill to the introduction of which he (Lord Not only were pa n r t o y t t a h b e o s u a t m s e i x n m o p n r t i h n s c ) principle, but th e y reste d the p w n o measures was a on principles almost diametrically opposite. There was no thing in common between the two measures except their object; for while he claimed for himself, with reference to the measure to which he was a party, the object of paci fying Ireland, he was far from imputing any other o bj ect to those who were the authors of the Bill before them. It was nothing to him whether the alterations were proposed by a single individual or whether they were adopted on the recommendation of the great body of landlords in Ireland. But he deeply regretted that those alteration s had been introduced. Cases of difficulty were certainly cases for compromise. The Bill to which he was a party required House might, at a future period, provide a remedy.— ( Hear.) For these reasons he should be sorry if the House would not agree to this and the other amendments, and thus retard the passing of this Bill. ,Sincerely looking at this Bill as it now stood, he would recommend to the House to agree with the Bill, and he would conclude by moving that these amendments be read a second time. Upon the question being put, Mr. H. HUGHES rose to move that the amendments be read a second time this day six months. The number of petitions that had been presented against this Bill ought to induce the House to reject it. The Hon. Member referred to the opinions of his constituents, who were almost unani mously opposed to this' Bill. He was sure— The SPEAKER rose to order. The Hon. Member must, he was sure, perceive that he was not speaking to the ques tion before the House.—( Hear.) Mr. H. HUGHES thought be had a right to propose an amendment if he pleased. The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member was quite right in supposing that he might propose an amendment when he pleased, but he should recollect that it must be an amendment to the question before the House.,—(Cheers. ) Mr. H. HUGHES said his object was to oppose the whole Bill.—( Laughter. ) The SPEAKER said it was quite true that the Bill in its progress might have been opposed by the Hon. Member at any stage, but now that the Bill had passed both Houses, he could only apply himself to the amendments.—( Laughter. ) Mr. H. HUGHES asked whether it was necessary that he should abstain from all comment or observation, and merely confine himself to his motion ? The SPEAKER assured the Hon. Member that he was at liberty to make any statement he pleased, provided that state ment applied itself to the amendment. Mr. H. HUGHES then entered into a course of argument against the Bill and its clauses, and went an to observe that the people of Oxford, and particularly thoso in authority, were decidedly against it. They felt that in such a district where such children were numerous, the weight upon the parish would be most enormous, if the putative father were to be exempted from all liability. The fact was that this Bill would render all securities and responsibilities void. He thought that the Bill ought to have a new title, and he would call it " a Bill to Manage Pauperism, Prostitution, and Infanti cide." They had discussed this Bill, .they had printed it, why not then let it go forth to the public and take their opinions upon it with a view to a more regulated enactment next year? Such a course as this was necessary before they adopted such a measure. An Hone. MEMBER—" But the Bill has passed ; it has been adopted by both Houses." Mr. H. HUGHES was aware that the Bill had passed that House, and had also passed the other House with certain amendments ; but he thought that it ought not to pass at all. He thought at least that time ought to be given for a due con sideration of the measure.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member concluded by moving that those clauses be taken into considera tion this day three months. Major BE A UCLERK seconded the amendment, as he thought it was an insult to this House to put an extinguisher upon our feelings, and as injurious to the best interests of the Dissenters. Take this Bill altogether, and he would say that it would entirely destroy property. Mr. COBBETT said the alterations made in this Bill made it a new Bill. The Noble putative father of this Bill said, " his object was to do away with the right of the poor to re lief. He said it was false philosophy and false humanity, and that we had fallen into error." He could wish he had the Noble Baron now before him, but that was impossible ; but if he could see him he would tell him that the law laid down by Baron Gilbert was the law of the land, as to the right of the poor to receive a necessary measure of relief in their necessi ties. He would go further, and say that the poor had a pre scriptive as well as a Parliamentary right to such relief. Was the object of this Bill to prevent women from breeding. Yes, he would repeat the question. Did the Hon. Gentleman wish to patronise Carlile's book, which had been for months on sale, while it was destroying the morals of the people? There was the Attorney-General who prosecuted many obscene publica tions, and properly so too, while the outrageously obscene work of Carlile escaped with impunity. Carlile's book was calculated to show the mechanical process of having children without the sanction of the marriage rite, and yet it was not prosecuted. Why was this? Let the Government speak out and tell the truth. He really believed their object was not to pass this Bill.--( Cries of " Hear, hear.") As to the bastardy clause, he considered it to be beastly; yes, beastly in its tendency, and to discourage breeding ;it was, in fact, a vulgar drover-like at tempt to prevent breedin g . The labourers were ready to re sist this Bill; and they had a right, as well as every other class of the community, to resist an unconstitutional attempt upon their liberties ; and they would resist the proposed Bastilles in the shape of workhouses. What harm would be done by postponing this Bill ? If delay were granted, the people would read and reflect upon it, just as the recruit would in being sworn, if he had a f ew h ours to re fl ect on w h at h e was doing when he was sober. This Bill was all got through in a hurry ; it was, in fact, all " hurry, hurry," and nothing else. By granting delay, the people would really know what the Bill was, and without it they never could do so. He would say that resistance was necessary to this Bill ; and, if neces sary, he would himself participate in such resistance. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said be would not vote against the amendment if the object was to throw out the Bill. Sir S. WHALLE Y thought it would be right to take the amendments seriatim, but in no shape, or alteration, could he support this Bill. Why object to delay its consideration till the next Session ? It would give the people time to con sider its provisions. He vainly expected this Bill would be improved by the House of Lords—it had come down in a worse condition than it was sent to them, and as such, without any other consideration, he would opp ose th e Bill , and vote for the amendment. Hei believed that the Bill would rather tend to increase than diminish the amount of poor rates through out the country, besides engendering the serious dissatisfaction of the people. The Noble Lord also stated that the salaries of the Commissioners should not exceed 1,0001. a-year, while it now appeared that the amount was doubled. ( Lord Althorp here made an observation across the table, which we did not distinctly hear.) Sir S. WHALLE Y said, however he was glad to find the names of such respectable gentlemen as the proposed Com , missioners. rising was to state that those gentlemen who voted for postpon ing the measure would reject it. Lord G. SOMERSET supported the amendment of the Hon. Member for Oxford, simply on the ground that he did not wish the House to agree to the bill during the present ses sion. Mr. YOUNG said that by the Bill, as it now stood, the cause that relief should be given to able-bodied poor from June 1835, would come into immediate operation. That was the strongest reason why the clause omitted by the Lords should be restored, or the operation of the bill postponed till another session. Mr. HARVEY had heard with surprise some of the altera tions of their Lordships. To say in what manner relief should be given was to destroy the principle of the Bill. Go vernment had gone great lengths in redeeming themselves from the imputation of being feeble in their measures, because, of all measures that had ever been proposed, this bespoke a bold and determined design. It proposed to put off the mea- - sure for the present session, but this was in fact putting off all the measures of next session. What was not the next session to bring forth ? A reformation of municipal corporations .an abolition of Tithe Bill—a Church of England Reform Bill ; it was to be the golden era of the Reformed Parliament. Pass this Bill when you might, it would always be an experimental Bill. If the Bill were let loose during the recess, and all the Magistrates of England discussed its merits, we should be just as wise about it as we were now. It was a hard Bill, but there was this comfort that its hardships could not be enforced. It could never operate for any length of time. The Bill was in point of fact a repeal of the Corn Laws, and in that respect he derived great comfort from it. Mr. T. ATTWO OD agreed that if the Bill were dropped this Session he would be a bold Minister- who should again bring it forward. His belief was that the working classes would not submit to this Bill. They were only bound to obey the law as long as it afforded them protection ; if that salu tary protection were withdrawn, they were not bound to obey it ; and he trusted that they would not obey it. He was sure they would not obey it. When it came to be understood, it would have such an effect on the minds of the people that no power of arms or law could enforce it. Mr. SINCLAIR hoped that the Bill would receive a fair trial. The House then divided : For the motion Against it 24 Majority 55 On our return to the gallery we found the Clerk reading the Lords' amendments. The clause respecting workhouses being read, Mr. LANGDALE felt the utmost anxiety respecting this clause, and concluded by moving, as an amendment, that the House should not agree to the amendments of the Lords. Mr. WILK S seconded the amendment. Lord ALTHORP thought it of the greatest importance that persons of every religious persuasion should have teachers of their own doctrines, either at their own houses or at places of worship, and if lie interpreted the omission of this clause as a prohibition of instructors differing from the tenets of the Es tablished Church from entering the workhouses, no lan guage would be too strong to express his objections to it. But he did not view the matter in that light. The omission of the clause would not cause the exclusion of Dissenters ; it would leave the law as it now stood, and they now possessed the right of access. The only mode in which any such person could be excluded would be by an order of the Commissioners, which order must in the first place, receive the sanction of the Secretary of State, and in the next place be laid before that House. Would any Gentleman believe it possible that, under such circumstances, an order would be made for the exclusion of Dissenters ? He would go further, and ask whether any one would believe that orders would not be made expressly for their admission ? It was only on that conviction that he would agree to the omis sion of the clause. He considered it highly desirable, that when the other House made amendments in a Bill, unless they were decidedly objectionable, this House should not differ from them. He did not think that there was any thing seriously objectionable in practice in this amendment, and therefore he was inclined to agree to it ; but, at the same time, he did not say, that if it was the opinion of the House that the clause ought to be re-inserted, he should be one who would resist such a proposition. He did not think it was at all likely that, if that House dissented from the omission of the clause, the Lords would therefore reject the Bill ; but still, as it was possible that such a rejection of the amendments might lead to a diffi culty, and as he did not think the omission of the clause a matter of much importance he should rather desire to agree to the omission ; but, as he had said before, if the House consi dered the clause of importance, he should not be disposed to press his opinion in opposition to such a decision. Mr. BUCKINGHANI supported Mr. Langdale's proposi tion, because he thought the omission of the clause would press on the religious liberties of the poor. Mr. MART hoped the Lords' amendments would not be adopted. Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR said a few words, which were not heard in the gallery. Mr. POTTER expressed his desire for the re-introduction of the clause. Mr. HAWES could not agree in the view taken of the sub ject by Lord Althorp. He thought the clause ought to be in serted, as it would be acceptable and grateful to a large por tion of the people. Mr. HUGHES HUGHES hoped that the Noble Lord would consent to the re-introduction of the clause. Mr. RICE hoped the House would decide the point without a division, in order that the opinion of the House of Commons might possess the greatest possible weight. Mr. BRISCOE expressed his approbation of the Bill ge nerally. Lord ALTHORP did not mean to offer any resistance to the proposition. The amendment of Mr. LANGDALE was then agreed to, and the amendment of the Lords, omitting the clause in question, rejected. Several verbal amendments to many of the clauses were agreed to. After a few words from Lord ALTHORP, Mr. CRIPPS was anxious that the Bill should pass, but certainly with certain modifications. For himself, he must state that he could not take upon him to object to any of the clauses until he had seen the Bill in full operation. Mr. POTTER said a few words which were not suffi ciently audible in the gallery. Lord ALTHORP hoped the amendments would be sup ported, as he was sure that neither bastardy, nor pauperism, or infanticide would be increased by it, but, on the contrary, the whole three would be decreased. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET protested against the bastardy clause, and asserted that in 99 cases out of 100 it was impossible to get at the putative father. He feared that the alterations made in the Lords' Bill were of a most op pressive nature. He would mention an instance which oc curred in his own family.—(Loud laughter.) A young woman was proposed as a servant in his house, and several questions were asked of her as to what she could do; at length she was asked why it was that she had left her last service, and she at once became affected.—(Loud laughter.) I took my hat and left the room (said the Hon. Member)—( Loud cheers and laughter)—and it was found upon inquiry that the poor girl, trusting to the fond promises of a faithful, or, as he had proved, a faithless man -servant, had allowed herself to be taken advantage of, and the natural consequence ensued.— (Laughter.) But the girl's statement having been found to be correct she was taken into his family, and she was now, ho was happy to say so , th e pru d ent and virtuous wife of an honest and honourable man.—( Cheers, and a little laughter.) After a desultory conversation, in which Mr. E. F. Young, Mr. Benett, Mr. Blamire, Mr. Hughes, &c. took part, The House then divided, when the numbers appeared_ For the Lords' amendment Against it. l9 Majority —3l Upon our return to the gallery, we found Mr. AGLIONBY moving an amendment to a subsequent clause to the effect that the Court be empowered to make an order of affiliation upon the testimony of a woman, corrobo rated by such other evidence as they might deem it proper to require. The House divided, when there appeared-- For the amendment 4 Against it 44 Majority against the amendment —4O A Committee was then appointed to conduct a conference with the House of Peers on the subject of such clauses and amendments as had not been agreed to. Several of the amendments were then agreed to, and others rejected, and a Committee was appointed to draw up the rea sons of dissent. POOR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. L A NGD ALE brought up the report of the Committee appointed to draw up their reasons of dissent to the Lords' amendments on this Bill. Mr. HAWES also brought up the report of the Commit tee appointed to draw up their reasons of dissent to the amend ments on the Justices of Peace Bill made by the Lords. They were both agreed to. Lord ALTHORP moved that the House at its rising do adjourn to Wednesday. Mr. GRATTAN opposed the motion, and thought the House ought to meet to-morrow, because, if the Irish Tithe Bill were thrown out in the Lords, some measures must be taken to remedy the inconvenience to which Irish landlords would be subjected. If the Irish Tithe Bill were not carr ied Mr. Stanley's A c t wou ld come i nto operation on Novembe r 1, and the conseq uence wou ld b e, that a rece i ver m ig ht ap pointed to recei ve th e rents o f every es tate in Irelan d. b Under all the circumstances of the case he was disposed thetp move an address to hi s M a j esty to g i ve or d ers no t to allo •military or police AtobeHaolloßwp said ed h to assist was not w in the collection that no t f r. tithes. Lord Stan. ley's Bill would have any such effect. Mr. RUTHVEN said in case of such an event the country would be exposed to great difficulty, and there would be but efosdurayhnoeuxrst.wbat was best to be little prospect of gopfiela.LecoetrhdeoiA•LtLorraTdns3Hutioi:Rietypt.othAe comet H o all tuos eh agrei e v ents, their ese there edn ts that ao could be no harm in allowing a _ay to intervene, in order that ad t they eTniotyeshn,mer andti i sh g i ent h might Ic i os t oto o in t i o r ts d d noi j d e o r e n s r r n o f to otthw\e:edtdayny g being disposed of, the House adjourned ct r l alf-past one. The General Steam Navigation. Company's Mail Packet, th e C o l umbine, from Hamburg, arrived off the Cus tom-house, at five o'clock, p.m., 11th August. Also the Lord Melville, from Calais, with many passengers on board, among whom was the Hon. F. Byng, with despatches for Lord Pal merston. The Hon. H. Lindsay and Captain Pearson came passengers by the Columbine. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, AUGUST 12, 1934. a certain compromise on the part of the Clergy. It was pro posed to them by that Bill that they should have a security given to them for their property, which, under any circum 7 stances, could not be shaken by a sacrifice of 20 per cent. But why, on earth, the landlords of Ireland were to have an addi tional 20 per cent. he was utterly at a loss to conceive. If any men were more deeply interested than others in the tranquil arrangement of the subject, those men were the landlords of Ireland ; and why they should receive 20 per cent. for that which was to be so beneficial to them he knew not. He could not believe that their efforts to carry the arrangement into effect would have been withheld but for this 20 per cent., which came essentially from the church. It was the clause in which three-fifths hid been substituted for four-fifths that gave a new and injurious character to the measure ; for, from that change flowed the necessity of the reference to the Perpetuity Fund and the Consolidated Fund. The clauses respecting the redemption formed an essential part of the original Bill. No question had been more thoroughly sifted by Parliamentary Committees during the last three or four years. The recommendations of those Committees with respect to tithes, were of different descriptions, but they all pointed at redemption as the ul timate object.—( Hear,) No measure that had ever been in troduced into Parliament was considered with more care than the Bill brought into the House of Commons at the commence men' of the Session, and of that Bill redemption of tithes was one of the main principles. His Noble and Learned Friend had talked of the liberality of giving the Church of Ireland the proposed twenty per cent. ; but the attempt t o get, it back destroyed a ll th e grace o f t h act, and gave to that which affected to be a gift its true character of a debt. With respect to the fund from which it was intended that the money should eventually come, he would not go so far as some Noble Lords, and call the invasion of that fund sacrilege, because as that fund owed its existence to an Act of Parliament, Parliament could of course do what it chose with it. But it must not be forgotten that in the Church Temporalities Bill of last year this fund was specially appropriated to very useful purposes. No one said that the Churches should not be repaired —no one said that the small livings ought not to be augmented. The Clergy of Ireland, therefore, were entitled to consider that that fund was permanently applied to the purposes to which it had been applied by a solemn act of the Legislature. Yet, for the sake of giving the landlords of Ireland what was not due to them, his Majesty's Government proposed to depart not only from the Bill of the present Session, but from the Bill of the last Session. The Bill, too, was liable to great objection in point of form. If he thought he could make such alteration as he desired to see in committee, he should be most reluctant to throw the Bill out on the second reading. But as it was told them that the result of such alterations would be the natural death of the Bill elsewhere, and consequently they must either pass it as it was or reject it—he feared they had ho alternative but to reject it ; but the responsibility must lie at the door of those who demanded either all or nothing. It had been asked what would be the condition of the Irish clergy if this Bill did not pass and nothing were done for them ? It was hardly possible to conceive a more persecuted body of men than the Irish clergy ; nor was it improbable, if this Bill passed, that their condition would be rendered still worse,and that it might come up to the eloquent description of his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack. But he believed that, notwithstanding the privations they suffered and th e d angers to w hi c h t h ey were exposed, that House would only be performing their wishes, as well as acting for their ultimate benefit, by preserving their property from violation and spoliation. As to the perpetuity fund, if that were to be applied to the repayment of the con solidated fund, it would be absorbed in a few years. He knew that some persons expected that the Irish Church Commission would discover a mine of wealth. It would, he believed, be a vain expectation; but all that he foresaw was, that ultimately that church would have to make up the deficiency out of its own revenues.—( Hear.) If, instead of 3-sths, 4-sths were substituted, there would then be no necessity for the clause relating to the consolidated and perpetuity funds. The clergy would still have the tithe collected for them by the landlords, when the peasantry would gain all the relief they would under the present Bill. But, unfortunately, as he could anticipate the probability of no such alteration, he must unwillingly vote against the second reading. The Bishop of LONDON said the course which he had taken during the last session of Parliament, in voting in favour of the Church Temporalities Bill, might probably induce some persons to imagine that it was his intention to support the pre sent measure. He did therefore feel it necessary to say a few words in explanation of the course which, much to his regret, he felt it his duty to take, on the present occasion, in voting against the second reading of this Bill. He voted for the mea sure of last year, in common, he believed, with those of their Lordships, who supleorted it on the assumption, that whatever sum was accumulated towards the formation of a perpetuity fund, should only be applied for ecclesiastical purposes.— ( Hear.) One of the principles of the present Bill was, that 201. per cent. on the amount of income of the Irish clergy should be taken out of that fund for the purpose of putting into the pockets of the landlord. —( Hear.) As far as regarded the 201. per cent. that was deducted from the incomes of the clergy themselves, considered as a premium paid for the security of the remainder, he should not, if the present mea sure went not further, much object to it. Nor he believed would the clergy raise any great opposition to that sacrifice. But as to the other 20 per cent., called a bonus, to be put into the pockets of the landlords, it comprised a principle to which he could not consent. Another objection which he had to the Bill was, that it broke up existing compositions. In order to secure the cle rg y i n I re l an d suc h portion of in come as was permitted to remain to them, it was necessary that the deductions to be made should be clearly defined. The Bill said that the great body of clergy were to forfeit 20 per cent. of their incomes, but by the operation of the clauses relating to composition, the clergy would have to forfeit not merely 20 per cent. on their incomes, but 20 per cent, on a reduced composition.—( Hear.) He had read some of these clauses very attentively, and though he was far from imputing such an intention to their authors, yet they did on the face of them contain an encouragement to dissatisfied persons, to break up compositions on the faith of which the cler gyman had for some years past calculated his income ; and thus subject him not only to certain loss, but during and after the period of revisal, to all the evils and mi sery attendant on parochial agitation.--( Hear, hear, h ear. ) These two .great principles of the Bill were so vicious that he could not give his consent to the present measure.--( R ear. ) The change which had been made in this Bill was to be ascribed in some measure to an Hon. and Learned Member of another House, who certainly had on no occasion exhibited himself in the light of a friend of the Church of England. He certainly could not regard this fact in the same light as the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack. He could not but regard with great suspicion any measure which pro ceeded from that party—( Hear)—and he thought he did so in the present instance with good reason ; for thbugh, on the first blush it did appear to be an advantage to transfer the payment of tithe from the landholder to the landowner, and though he might on the first blush anticipate from that some mitigation in predial agitation, yet he thought a very different view of this case was adopted by the Hon. and Learned Member in question ; for when Mr. Stanley brought in a measure for making the tithe payable by the landowner instead of the tenant, the Right Hon. Gentleman said it was a fearful risk to throw the people from the kind indulgence of the clergyman on the severity of the landlords.—( H ear, hear, hear.) There could be no doubt that the tithe payers would be forced to pay up their tithes to the land lords with greater strictness and more punctuality than they had hitherto paid them to the clergyman, and he much feared that it was the hope of inducing yet further agitation that led the Hon. and Learned Member to give this Bill so ready an assent.—( Hear.) He should be most un willing to do anything to embarass his Majesty's Government in the settlement of this most delicate and important ques tion. He was perfectly alive to the extravagant difficulties in which the great body of the Irish clergy would be plunged if this Bill were not carried ; and if the Irish clergy had shown themselves to be unanimous in its favour, he should have felt it his duty to overcome • his objections, rather than expose them to the danger of starvation. But he did not believe that any such feeling prevailed.—(Hear, hear.) All the in quiries he had made had satisfied him that the great body of Irish clergy rejected that Bill. In addition to the testimony of a Most Reverend Prelate who had spoken, he could add the testimony of another Most Reverend Prelate not now in England, equally known for his zeal, piety, humanity, and for his devotion to the cause of the Clergy and the Church. He need hardly say that he alluded to the Primate of all Ire land. That Most Reverend Prelate wrote that it was impos sible to consult the clergy of four extensive dioceses in sufficient time to guide the friends of the Establishment as to their proceeding in Parliament, but that he had submitted the case to a large body of the clergy in their own diocese, and they agreed with him in opinion, that if the Bill, as amended, should be passed absolutely and without power of redemption, vesting the property of the Church in the Government, as trustees, it would be all over with the church. They could not help the spoliation of the church by arbitrary power, but they must at least abstain from partaking in the deed, and preserve inviolate the trust reposed for their successors. He did not hesitate to say that such was the opinion of a large body of the clergy, and that, if there were time to send a petition, then would be no difficulty in proving that to the satisfaction of the House. He was quite aware that the refusal of this Bill would throw the clergy back upon the tithe composition ; but that they would infinitely prefer to this dangerous measure, which would partially rob them, and ultimately deprive their successors of all remedy." Such was the statement of the opinion of the Irish clergy. He (the Bishop of London) saw nothing in this Bill, but an immediate and partial innovation of the Church of Ire land, threatening ultimately its final extinction. He therefore felt himself called on to vote against the second reading. The Earl of RODEN objected strongly to the present measure. He knew well the sentiments of the Irish clergy, especially the working clergy, and also of the Irish gentry, and he knew them to be most strongly opposed to the pre sent measure. The Irish clergy were ready to sacrifice their incomes rather than sacrifice the principles of their religion. This Bill was a crafty attempt to destroy not only the property of the Protestant clergy, but e ven the Protestant faith in Ireland. He protested against this truckling to the great agitator of Ireland—this attempt, as it were, to buy him over to keep Ireland quiet. The Noble Vis count, the Secretary for the Home Department, was supposed to entertain views similar to those of Mr. O'Connell in many respects ; but he warned him against attempting to govern Ire land through that Individual, who was the greatest enemy to Protestants, and the Protestant religion in Ireland. If he did so, he would disgust the Protestants, who alone maintained the union with England, and might drive them to seek better terms for themselves from the dominant party in their own country, than the Government here was inclined to give them.—( Hear, hear. ) Viscount D UN C ANN 0 N denied that there was any truckling to Mr. O'Connell ; all that he said, and he rep e ated it, was— Was it reasona bl e to throw out a wise and just amendment, merely because Mr. O'Connell had suggested it? As to his government of Ireland, the Noble Earl opposite might have reserved his lecture.--( Hear, hear.) If he deviated from his duty, or compromised the honour of his country, it was open to the Noble Earl to move an address to the Crown ; but be had done nothing since he had been in office, to justify the Noble Earl in using the expressions in which he had thought fit to indulge.--( Hear, hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND was surprised at the statement of his Noble Friend that these clauses were suggested not by Mr. O'Connell but by the landlords of Ireland. Did not his Noble Friend know long before they were struck out that Mr. O'Connell had the greatest objection to the redemption clauses. Really, if the landlords of Ireland wished to be libe ral he thought they had much better be so at their own expense than at that of the Irish clergy.—( Hear.) He believed, with several honourable exceptions, the Irish peasantry did not find too much liberality from their landlords. He felt it his duty to support the second reading of this bill. If it were rejected, tithes would be most difficult of collection in Ireland.—( Hear. ) Let the House consider what would the state of the Protest ant clergy if they rejected it now. Let them consider, too, what would be the state of feeling which they would excite in another place towards those unfortunate individuals. Let the House remember the misery into which it would plunge them. They would not be able to raise one shilling without the appli cation of military force.__( Hear.) The Irish people would say that the House of Commons had, by a large majority, de clared that tithes should be extinguished; and he sincerely believed that, if the Bill were not passed this stage, the Irish clergy would have encouraged the House to that which would prove their positive ruin.—( Hear, hear.) Whereas, if they voted for the second reading, they could alter it in committee, and it required alteration ; and if it were not perfect it could then be thrown out. The House of Commons and the people of England had a right to expect at their hands that the Bill should be read a second time. If they rejected this Bill, did they believe that so favourable a one would be pro posed next session? On these grounds, and with the view he had expressed, he should vote for the second reading. The Marquis of CL ANR IC ARDE protested against the unjust attack made on the Irish landlords. He was sorry to sec that old stalking-horse brought forward. It was, as Grat tan had said; they tried to give the landlords a bad character, in order to leave the peasants without redress. This measure would prove of infinite relief to the tenant, and would pacify Ireland. He implored their Lordships to pause and consider the direful consequences that might result from its summary rejection. The Earl of C ARBE RR Y said a few words, which were perfectly inaudible. The Earl of DARNLE Y spoke with his back to the gal lery, and was inaudible. He was understood to express his intention of voting for the second reading,in the expectation that the Bill would be modified in Committee. Lord G 0 SFORD approved of the measure, as one greatly calculated to tranquillize Ireland. Lord MELBOURNE rose,amidst loud cries of " divide." He could not permit the debate to close without pressing upon their Lordships the propriety of availing themselves of this opportunity of averting the evil consequences which would be likely to ensue from the rejection of this measure. It had been said on the other side, that the consequences of the re jection should 411 upon the heads of those who brought the measure forward ; but he answered, that those who rejected, not those who proposed, must abide the consequences. Any objections in detail which lay against the measure might have been urged in the Committee. It had been objected to those who proposed the Bill, that they had neglected to vindicate the law, and therefore arose that state of things which required the proposed legislation. He as much as any Noble Lord was anxious to vindicate the law. He was as much opposed as any one could be to violence and outrage, and as fully re solved to suppress them; but the proposed measure was cal culated to do more than suppress; its object was to prevent violence.—( Cheers.) He confessed that, for the Bill as it formerly stood, he was filled with apprehensions: The Noble Duke said they ought to vindicate the law, and that it was owing to them and their not vindicating it that the outrage existed. This statement he ( Lord Melbourne) distinctly denied ; and if the statement had been made by any other than the Noble Duke, he would pronounce it to be one of a most uncandid and unfair nature.---( Hear, hear 1 cheers and laughter.) If the Noble Duke had been in his situation—and he wished to God he had been—the Noble Duke would have taken a different view of the circumstances. Under similar circumstances in 1829, the Noble Duke did take a different view of matters which he had looked at in another light before.—( Cheers.) In explanation of the change in his opinion the Noble Duke stated his own military experience of the horrors of civil war, and in apprehension of these horrors adopted and succeeded in carrying a measure which his whole life before had been spent in opposing.—( Cheers.) With regard to the vehement invective in which a Noble Earl had thought fit to indulge, he (Lord Melbourne) would not find fault with it. He was only astonished to hear described, as resulting from the interest of the moment, that which must have cost a month of study..__ ( A laugh.) It was strange how a Noble Lord could so ra pidly traverse all Ireland, led by no other guide than the inte rest of the moment.---( Laughter.) He would not follow the Noble Lord through all his observations, for he confessed he did not possess an imagination which could be so rapidly yet so momentarily led through so excursive a course ; but though he would not follow, he was prepared to deny almost all the Noble Earl's facts and the entire of his inferences.—( Hear, hear, cheers and laughter.) He had pledged himself to be brief, and he would not trespass longer on their Lord ships' time than merely to call their attention to the fate of the predictions which had been hazarded on former oc casions. It must be in their recollection that it had been distinctly stated when the Bill of last session (the Church Loan Bill) was under consideration—it had been stated that none of the clergy would avail themselves of that measure. Seeing how little these former predictions were borne out by events, he would be permitted to doubt the correctness of the conclu sions come to by the opponents of the present measure. He would conclude by pressing upon them the necessity of consi dering the present situation of the clergy of Ireland, in the, hardship of which the Noble Baron and the other Noble Lords who took the same side of the question with him all concurred. Let them consider this, and perhaps it would induce them not to miss an opportunity which may never occur again. The House then divided, when there appeared-- Contents—Present 5l Proxies 7l-122 N o n-contents--Present B5 Proxies 104-189 Majority against the second reading —67 The House then agreed, at the request of the Commons to hold a conference with the Commons on the subject of the Poor-Laws, in the Painted Chamber, on Wednesday, at half past five o'clock ; and also a conference at a quarter to five, on the same day and same place, on the subject of the Justices of Peace Bill. The House then adjourned at Two o'clock till to-morrow day) at half-past Ten. HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 11. The SPEAKER entered the House at ten minutes past five, and proceeded to count the House, when there being a suffi, cient number of Members present, the Right Hon. Gentleman took the Chair. Mr. KIRKPATRICK presented accounts from the trus tees of Ramsgate harbour, which were laid on the table. GIN PALACES. Mr. BUCKINGHAM presented a petition from the churchwardens and parishioners of St. Margaret's, West minster, complaining of the abomination of gin palaces, which were frequently emptied of their inmates at 11 o'clock on Sun day morning, and many families were prevented from attending divine service from this cause. The Hon. Member was pro ceeding with a detail of the evils resulting from drunkenness, when Mr. LITTLETON rose to order. It was quite contrary to the rules of the House for Hon. Members to make length.. ened statements on the presentation of petitions at that hour. In answer to a question from Mr. H. GRATTAN, relative to cholera hospitals (as we understood the Hon. Member), Mr. LITTLETON said he could not give the Hon. Member any pre cise information on the subject. Mr. F. O'CONNOR complained, that in a Bill which had been lately passed through that House the Turnpike Trust Bill, he had been assured by the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland that a certain road would be exempted from its ope rations. The Bill had passed during his absence in Ireland, and he found that this road had been included, notwithstand ing the promise of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. LIT TL ETON said it was perfectly true that he had promised the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that the trust to which be alluded would be exempted, but the majority of the House thought otherwise.--( Hear, hear.) He thought it was rather irregular for Hon. Members to call upon him for an ex planation of what had taken place during their absence. POOR LAWS' AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of Lord A L THORP, the order of the day for the further consideration of the Lords' Amendments to this Bill was read. Lord AL THORP wished to occupy the attention of the House for a short time, while he stated to them what were the amendments made in the Bill during its progress through the other House. The amendments were of consi derable number, and some of them were of consider able importance; but he would freely say that looking at the Bill altogether, he .did not think it at all the worse for the amendments that had been made.--( Hear, hear, hear.) He would now state what these amendments were. Th e f i rst was one of very little importance, relative to the union of votes. The next was upon the important sub ject of relief. The alteration made was, that two justices may order out-door relief in unions, to persons who shall, by one of such justices, be certified to be incapable of work. The next amendment was one of very great importance, namely, the clause prohibiting any allowance to be given to persons em ployed by individuals. This clause was omitted in the Lords, but the alteration was one more of seeming than of net importance. There were other alterations in the Bill. The House of Lords had altered the period at which children were to be considered as capable of providing for themselves, from 12 to 16 years of age, the term that was originally proposed by the Bill, but which was altered in the Committee in that House. With respect to settlement, settlement by apprenticeship, which was abolished in this House, was retained in the other House. Another important alteration was made in the bastardy clauses. Several clauses had been added in the other House, the effect of which would be to throw in some cases the maintenance of bastard children upon the putative father, instead of the mother. There was another amendment which was likely to produce considerable discussion in this House, and which he very much regretted, namely, the omission of the clause which allowed the Dissenting Minister to enter the workhouse, to attend to the spiritual wants of his dissenting brethren. The legal right was taken away, but he did not think that in practice the right of the dissenting Minister would be interfered with, and if it should, this MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. A message from the Lords announced their Lordships' agreement to the Exchequer Bills' Bill, the House of Com mons Officers' Bill, and several other Bills. Mr. L ANG DALE would vote for taking the amendments into consideration, without pledging himself to vote for them. Mr. RICHARDS had hitherto supported this Bill,because of his confidence in the Government ; but, after what had been said by a Noble Lord in another place, as to the repeal of the 43d of Elizabeth, he thought a breach of faith had been committed by his Majesty's Ministers. He saw a distrust in their wisdom, and sure he was that the people generally would be disappointed. He protested against the sentiments uttered by a Noble and Learned Lord in another place, for they were intended to destroy, not only the rights of property, but the general rights of the people. On these grounds he would offer every opposition to this Bill. Lord ALTHORP said this Bill was brought in with a view to do good to all classes, and in so doing to protect the rights of property amongst others, Mr. BENETT had always opposed this Bill upon prin ciple ; but while large majorities of this House supported it, he had not vanity enough to think that he was right, and therefore he did not press his objection to a division. He was now in favour of postponing the Bill till next Session, as by that time the people would be made better acquainted with its provisions.—( Question, question.) Mr. R. PALMER was only anxious to say a few words in justification of the vote he now meant to give —that vote be ing for a postponement of the Bill till the next session. He had conversed with many persons on this subject. Some ap proved of it as an alteration of the present bad system of the poor laws; but the great majority of them were hostile to it as an invasion of the rights of property as well as the rights of the poor. In fact, it was generally looked upon with appre hension and distrust. Under such circumstances he was for delaying its further consideration till the next session. Mr. HODGES congratulated the House that they had the present opportunity of defeating this Bill. Mr. HARDY said that the middle course to be pursued was to let this Bill stand over till the next session, not by re jecting the amendments altogether, but by acceding to a re commendation to that effect by the Noble Lord. He had consulted these who were perfectly well acquainted with the working of the poor laws, especially in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and the universal observation was, " We don't un derstand the provisions of this Bill—we don't know the ten dency of it." He would support the amendment. Lord ALTHORP did not mean to enter into any discus sion on this question—it was not a regulardiscussion, because it ought to be confined to the amendments. Gentlemen seemed to suppose this Bill could be postponed till next ses sion, when in reality he (Lord Althorp) had no power to act. Unless Gentlemen had altered their opinion most completely since the Bill had passed this House, when they were of opinion that this measure would be of advantage to the public in general, he hoped they would not lose the opportunity of passing it, because if it were postponed to another year he would be a bold man who would again undertake to carry it. He had done his best in bringing forward this measure. The Hon. Member for Oldham had spoken of one person being the putative father of the Bill. He (Lord Althorp) claimed to have as much concern in this Bill as any other person. It did appear to him to be a measure (as he had frequently de scribed it during the discussions in this House) as beneficial as any that had ever passed. The Hon. Member had said that the amendment made by the House of Lords had not effected any great alteration in the Bill. In that he (Lord Althorp) entirely concurred. He should have regretted ex tremely if that had not been the fact. When Gentlemen talked of the hurry with which this Bill had passed the Houses, let them recollect the length of time that it had been before them ; that during all that time there was full opportunity of considering all the clauses in the Bill. If Gentlemen had not already made up their minds as to whether this Bill was a fit one or not, they surely had no time for further consideration. He certainly was surprised at the statements made by the Hon. Member for Berkshire that the measure was generally disapproved of. The information which he (Lord Althorp) had received showed that it was generally approved of. He knew that it had been severely criticised and attacked. but what had already taken place had shown that those attacks did not speak the sentiments of the people. If they had truly represented the opinions o f th e country genera lly, they would have had a gr ea t er e ff ect t h an t h ey h a d h a d. He therefore believed that it was genera lly approve d o f. He could not see the distinction between at once rejecting the measure and moving that it be read a third time that day six months, which was the usual method of rejection. His principal object in MN