The Sun. — London, England, 1856-03-01 00:00:00

EMTA k d 90} 1 Si I Day.) noon, N.E. ; 7 Horning. Brown, from er, steamer, de. tesmers, for ► 3.forning. tip Grande ; D erdt ; Me- Dsteanus, iftiansand. ), Yob. 28. Y.b. 29. Your, Syra ; , Feb. 29. ►PR.) r, 10 a.m. letor, Caen ; lines ; Dor- Caen ; John inrodiolinds, 9.20 s.m• I transport, a, London. ' the Deep, ." Business this dW x a IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YEsTr,RDAy). The LORD CLIANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clocke The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented several pe- Rims against the opening of the Crystal Palace and British Museum on Sundays. Pz' Lord REDESDA LE presented netitions to a similar effect from the countieq of Warwick and Gloucester. Lord DUNGANNON gave notice that on Tuesday next he should move for certain returns relating to the :magistracy of Ireland. TORTURE IN INDIA.. The Earl of ALBEKARLE moved that there be laid before their lordships a report by the acting second ledge of circuit of the centre division of the Madras Presidency, addressed to the Court of Fonjdaree Adaw. Int, dated Sept. 25, 1840, together with the proceedings of the court held thereon, also the minute of the council of the Madras Government,founded, on the report of the, circuit judge and on the proceedings of the Foujdaree Adawlut ; with returns of the number of native officers employed in the police, and the collection of revenue, the number of the officers dis missed for employing torture, or other misconduct, in the years 1813, 1833, and 1835 ; a return of the revenues of the Presidency in 1803, 1813, 1823, 1833, and 1853, and several other returns relating to the courts of cir cuit, land tax, &c., and despatches respecting taxation and torture. The noble lord said that he intended the returns he now moved fit to serve for the further illustration of the return that had recent!' been Made upon the torture employed in Madras. The tor ture, it appeared, had been practised by the Government for Government purposes—torture inflicted for the pur pose of raising revenue, and torture inflicted for compul sory labour upon the Government works. He did not mean to harrow up their feelings on the present occa sion by - reciting the truly horrible details that were con tained in the volume, but he would take a more favour able opportunity of entering more fully into the subject. The chief evidence of the commission of these cruelties was given by Mr. Malcolm Lewin, who had served as a judge for many years with great fidelity in the East India Company, and had subsequently become a judge Connected with the Geurt of Foujdaree Adawlut. The last report was dated 1855, and it bore strong re semblance to the report of 1840, as far as the Most appalling details of torture were concerned. The noble earl concluded by moving for the returns. Earl GRANVILLE said three years ago the question bad been settled by Parliament after full inquiry. The Government declared itself responsible for the admini stration -of Indian affairs. The returns would cause great inconvenience, but he should not object to them, because the Government felt the great importance of the subject. After a few words from several of the noble lords the returns were ordered. COMMONS ENCLOSURE BILL. Thin bill was read a second time. JOINT-STOCK BANKS (SCOTLAND) BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair Rhortly after f , ,nr o'clock. LONDON DIOCESAN CHURCH BUILDING SOCIETY BILL. On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON for the second reading of this bill, Mr. HADFIELD moved, as an amendment, that it be read a second time that day six month•. He looked upon this bill as a public measure, and that it should have been introduced by the Government instead of by a private member. It was one way of getting an obnoxious measure quietly through the house. Sir W. CLAY segonded the arneudrnent. Lord R. GROSVENOR supported the bill. It dealt °MY with private property. After a tew words from other hon. member., The house divided, when the numbers were-- For the second reading Against it 2O Majority for second reading --115 The bill wad then revd a second time. RAILWAY, &c., BILLS. Mr. STRUTT moved that " the Bard of Tra'lo do Present to this house a report upon the Railway and Canal Bills of this session, in conformity with the recom mendation contained in the fifth report of the select "tilmittse on railway and canal bills of the cession °f 1853 ; and, that the Board of Trade do Present to this house a report upon the Private Bills for Harbours, Docks, Navigations, &c., in °G nfornaity with the practice in force with respect to Railway Bills."—Agreed to. NEW WRIT. A new writ was ordered on the motion of Mr. HAY -1-BR, for Boston, in the room of Mr. Gilbert Heathcote, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. THE ARMY. Mr. LAYARD moved for nominal return of officers, 40 n - commissioned officers, and privates mentioned or recommended for distinguished services in the reports of B rigadiers Codrington and Markham, and in that of th e attached to their respective divisions, on the Occasion of the storming of tho Redan on the Bth day of S eptember, 1855.—Agreed to. PE RGIA. Mr. LA.YARD gave notice that on the first day after 'he house going into supply he should call the attention 0f th e house to our relations with Persia. THE M`NEIL-TITLLOCH REPORT. bh ln reply to a question from Mr. S. WORTLEY, "'Mr. F. PEEL said that the reply of Lord Lucan and also that of the Earl of Cardigan were referred to the be en for their information, and a rejoinder had l aid received from them. These documents would be ' ft id before the board that had just been appointed, Which was considered preferable to laying them before that house. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE as k e d w h e th er S ir J. M`Neil fl( 1 Col. Tulloch would be present at that inquiry, and 1 : they would have the power of examining and cross 'Zan:fining the witnesses. Lord PALMERSTON said that the proceedings of the +. ° Qurt would be regulated by the commissioners. Cer s"l"l3, Sir John M`Neil and Col. Tulloch would have an °Pnortunity of being present during the inquiry, like the Public. The commissioners would have full powers to govern their proceedings. , Sir DE LACY EVANS as k e d if the public were "° Understand by the answer of the noble lord that the °°, t umission might shut their doors, and proceed with ° ' ° fied doors whenever they thought proper. (Hear.) Lord PALMERSTON s a id uodoubtAly they might. T hey would have discretionary powers for regulating th eyroceedings of the court. The subject then dropped. SLAVERY IN TURKEY. Air. BIGGS asked the First Lord of the Treasury w hether it was the intention of her Maje-ty's Govern went, at the present Conferences at Paris , to require (in the ch anges th e y mean t o advise in the Turkish institu 4 ! ; °121 ) the abolition of the slave trade and domestic sla yer)" in the Sultan's dominions? Lord PALMEHSTON said that the Government had 1 14 e 4 every exertion, and with success, to preven"• the T , a've trade on the Turkish shores of the Black Sea. The gotnestic slavery was a question which did not properly c° rne within the functions of the Government. ENFIELD MILITIA. „In consequence of a question put by Mr. EVELYN to ‘" Secretary for War relative to this regiment of militia 11° t being embodied, LAYARD called the attention of the i° use to what he called a job with re erence to this rec. , ,irnent, most of the officers be ing relatives of Lord Enfield, the commander. A Dirited discussion took place, in which Lord PAL ltbsrorr, Mr. BYNG, and Sir E. PARRY took part, repu t lating the charge of jobbery. OFFICERS' RETURNS. Sir DE LACY EVANS called attention to the returns t hathad been made, on the motion of Mr. Layard, relative t.,2 the offi cers i n the ' Crimea, naming their past services. 80 happened that for six weeks he served on the staff .„at Chobh am , an d s i x w eeks on the staff in North triton. He had also served on the staff in Spain and France, under the Ate Duke ( :_f 'Wellington and also in America, and to his surprise he found in the return alluded to that his service for weeks at Chobham, &c., were mentioned, but n et those abroad. (Elear, hear.) That was t he way his bumble services had been mentioned, and if t he rest of the return was as destitute of truth as that Which referred to him it was not worth the paper on Which it was printed. Major REED called attention to similar omissions 48 regarded other gallant officer'. Mr. P. PEEL said he was unable then to give an ex- Planation of what had been complained of, but that he '"euld make inquiries respecting it. R. ROEBUCK'S MOTION—THE WNEIL AND TULLOCH REPORT. ROEBUCK Mr. Speaker, I am perfectly aware of the danger attending the course which I intend now to pursue. At a time when peace and war hang tr embling in the balance, it is of the utmost importance We should have a Government strong in itself, possessed O f the confidence of the country. That consideration i nvolves th e diffi cu lt y b e f ore me. B ut, on t h e o th er h an d, 11 We were to let pass without comment the proceedings to Which I am about to refer, we should do an injury to t he army which is our greatest defence, we should be Il ainst to that strong arm by which we resist oppression a broad, and we . ,l should render inefficient one of t he Most assured means of our safety. Therefore I rebut entirely s ol responsibility accruing in consequence of the motion which lam about to make. If the Government 43 hoolie 8 to build a wall tiniest which it chooses at the same tune to thrust its own heal, lam not respinsilsie. I will at "ee therefore proceed to state the sul,j -et of my motion. S hortly after the army appeared bef 're Sebastopol there g r ew tip from hour to hour, from day to day, whispers o f suffering to which that army was subject, which W hispers grew at length into a ion I—l may say—roar of d isapprobation expressed by the wh de press of this 1)0°11 trY• At length when Parliament met, so alarmed Was Wthe public taind upon the subject that the Secretary a r (Mr. S. Herbert) gat up in his place and made a defence tending to refute and answer all the rumours Wich had h far.been received respecting the danger aryl Hag of ou r army . Th ere was so mething, fir, in the manner of th e r i g ht h on . gen tleman, something so tirtious and frank in his whole demeanour that it won 4 house and the country to believe in the statement • - THE 5E074,...t...,0';':...D0N 1 SATURDAY EvENING., MARCH 1, '0'156. may be convoni3nt that I sliord..l expl The hen gen tleman has entirely misumlersto )1 the object of my motion, which is to blame the misconduct of those by whose ne glect or incompetency various depart meats of the army have been pLced under the command of offi.;ers whose conduct has been inculpated by the report of the commission ap pointed by the Government. Mr. PEEL, remarked that the hon. and learned member had altered his ,notion so often that it was somewhat diffi cult to understand exletly what he did mean. When he was told that the inquiry was to sit with closed doors, the hon. and learned gentleman said the object of the Govern tumt was to shelter incompetence; that they desired to screen the officers against whose conduct imputations had been cast in the report, but the Moment he was informed that the board of general officers was to be an open tribu nal, then the hon. and learned member turned round and said the object of the Government was not to shelter the officers who were to appear before it, but to hide thcir own misconduct. Airey was nest taken by Lord Hardinge alone, but was shared by the Government, for what could otherwise have in duced the Government to send General Airey ae a mem ber of the conference which was held in Paris with regard to the future conduct of the war? They could only have looked to the fact that this country should have its weight in that conference when they selected ofUcere who • represented this country, and. General Airey was one of those who was sent over. There was everything to induce Lori Hardinge to believe that General Airey was capable of doing a duty similar to that to which he had devote I himself fur two years ; aud, couddering that the report of the Crimean coutnissioners had not then been received by the Government, no more proper appointment could then have been made. He (lir. Peel) did not know whether ‘fr. Filler had been named by the. hon. and learned gentleman, but the right hon. gentleman opposite (Sir J. Pakington) had spoken of some injustice having been done to that gentleman because he was n.)t aware that ho had bean recalled until he (Hr. Peel) had so stated last night, and because he had becu sant a copy of the re port, -vhich had only been laid on the table of the house a short time ago. Ho (Hr. Peel) did not use th e wor d " recall " with any moaning that it conveyed censure, and he would state the circumstances under which Mr. Filder retired from the office of Commissary-General. When Lord Panmure came to the War-office he re ceived an impression that the performance of the duties of tha Conirnisgariat in tll3 Crim©a had not been satisfac tory, as it ought to have been. The report of the com mittee over which the hon. and learned gentleman presided strengthed that impression, and the first report of the Crimean commission could not but have tended still fur- ther to strengthen it. Having also heard that the health of the Commiesary-General was failing, it was natural that Lord Pannier° should take the first opportunity to relieve that officer. It was known there was every prospect that the army would pass another winter in the Crimea, and that its numbers would be largely increased, and that greater exertions would be required to provide for the army in the winter of 1855-56 than were required in that of 1354-55, and Lord Panmure came to the resolution to intimate to the Commissary-General that another officer would succeed him. A despatch was sent to Gen. Simp son stating the reasons for the recall of the Commissary- General in the kindest aad most considerate manner ; but while that despatch was on its way to the Crimea, Mr. Filder applied for a medical board to inquire into the state of his health, and in consequence of its decision he had actually quitted the Crimea before the despatch arrived. Ho came home ; but, if had remained in the Crimea, he would have been made acquainted with the fact that an other officer would be appointed to succeed him. Then with regard to not communicating to Mr. Filder the first report of the commission. The fact was, that whon the Government received it, the Commissary-General had al ready retired, and it was not thought advisable to com municate to him a report against him, when the whole question had been settled by that investigation. That first report was received in June last, but it was not complete, and it was unaccompanied by the evidence—it was simply a bare report of the commission, but contained no account of their proceedings, for which there was no time, and it was only intended to inform the Government of the de fects of the Commissariat as early as possible. The Go vernment was therefore unwilling to do anything towards Mr. Filder, which might be considered unkind ; but when in December last the Commissary-General applied to Lord. Hardinge to recommend him for the Order of the Bath, it became necessary to state why Lord Pan inure would be unable to recommend him for that dis tinction ' and that he was not satisfied with the w a y in which the duties of the Commissariat had been per formed, or that greater exertions might not have been used if the department had gone out of the beaten track, in order to obtain supplies. That communication was not made to Mr. Filmier till the middle of January, soon after the complete report of the Crimean commission had reached the Government. The house would observe that the statements in the report made it necessary that further opportunity of explanation should be afforded to the other officers who were inculpated, and it was thought advisable to deal with Mr. Filder in that respect as it was proposed to do with the others, and that a court should be appointed to receive the explanations of all of them. That was all that he (Ar. Peel) thought it necessary to state on that occasion. He could only say that when the hon. and learned gentleman imputed misconduct to the Government for some of the appointments which they had made, he was sure that at least they might claim credit for others. The departbients generally were now ad mitted to be filled by the fittest men. The present Adjn ten',-General in the Crimea was an officer whose attention to the drilling of the troops and training them to the use of the new weapons which had been established, had con tributed to form an infantry which would be found in ac tion to have reached an effectiveness which had never been reached before. The efficerwhe filled the office of Quarter master-General had shown great capability, and the condi tion of the supplies of the army testified to his ability to do his duty. With regard to the medical department, at its bead was the very officer:named by the hon. andlearned gentleman, Dr. Hall. Mr. ROE BUC&—I did not mention his name. Mr. F. PEEL—His :mpression was the hon. and learned gentlemn.o did mune Dr. Hall. Mr. ROEBUCK—I did not. which he then made. I must at once say that I myself te give it his support. He feared that the words of the came down to this house bully impressed with a belief motion were calculated to prejudge the question, which Was still op ;n, and with r ega rd t o whi c h the ce m l ue t o f that our army was suffering unheard-of mi ser y, an d I went away with my mind disabused of the impression . the officers mention°, f was about to be made the subject of investigation. The words e ith e r bore th a t con s tru c t ion , or they i i c e e a t r is n u e r i edt e h l e , b r e n r ili e t l a i r l y ed de m pr se t: , u n en k t i t et for .‘n e d -h w at hi t e h h e out a Case that the army was not suffering—that t h ey would be no inie :onduet at all in the case of a complete had everything at their command—`that they were, in , acquittal. Under these circumstances, he (Sir J. Peking fact, as an English army ought to be, properly cared fer i too) could net support the how and learned member's by their ceuntre. Such was the impression left on my i i motion, and therefore the course ee was about to pursue mind by the speech of the right hon. gentlemen. But, I would be to abstain altogether from taking tent in the sir, very shore ly after this, more stories of suffering and ! present divition, reserving to himself the right to bring misery were told from day to day, the same harrowing forward his owes views whets, its his opinion, the fitting opportunity had arcivel. At the same time he felt bound disclosures occurred, and very speedily the impression to state that, in his opinion, the conduct of the Gevern , thente ti, gravestwith made on the house and the country by the speech of the right hon. gentleman was at en end. Anxiety and &armr e e e e n ea s i: i ti re te a t n i t es n e ,he tt ne tai v s o a r c h ti e on h s ro h . a io d ht be th en e o ß t u t h eh e t e t t ) possessed the public mind. Such was the brit act of this before the house, he should certainly allutle'te the ex.itra horrible drama. When Parliament again met I gave no- ordinary omission, on the part of the Government, to tico that I should move for a committee to inquire into communicate the report of the commissioners to the Com the state of the army before Sebadopel. The house muse mander-in-Chief. He believed that that house had never he aware of the effect produced by the notice then given, felt greater astonishment than when, on a former evening, One effect was the disappearance from the ranks of the the Secretary for War made the faltering statement, that Government of the noble lord the member for London the first intimation Lord Herding() received coucernieg these reports was v: hen be received a copy in his cap a city (Lord J. Russell). He, like a timid fisherma n w h o h ear. of peer of Parliament. When the proper time arrived he the storm threatening and notes the advancing clouds, (Sir J.Paltington) meant to draw attention to the inference turned his boat to the shore and ran howling on the which he could not fail to deduce from this fact, namely, land. Many objections were taken to the motion ;it was that there was not that harmony subsisting between the said that the investigation would do injury to the army; Commander-in-Chief's department anti that of the Secre that we were a body 3,000 miles off ; that we could not tary of State which the exigencies of the country's service hear with our own ears, see with our own eyes, that into required, and further to the great injustice which had been which we were to inquire. It was stated that a commit- inflicted on the otlicers whose conduct was impugned. As tee of this house was a means of investigation totally in- an illustration of this injustice, he thould allude to the 1 adequate ; in spite of these statements, in spite of the case of Mr. eetanissary-General Filler. He begged to dangers of the step, the house supported me in my mite say that he had no acquaintance with that gentleman, nor tion. It is well known with what consequences. The e a somewhat l '' c ' s a s s ehdoevial his d to advocate stion 3 t b h u a t n u t e h the eo tstood o f i fi a first consequence was the utter disruptiOn of Lord Aber- there was all die greater necessity that e he sho r - I dd a h e f i ve se a d n ' deen's Ministry. The danger at that time was great. We ample measure of justice at the hands of Government. ‘ He were at war. We were waging a terrible war with a had, on the previous day, in consequence of a letter here powerful adversary, and yet notwithstanding the danger ceived from Mr. Filder, requested the Government to lay which would result, the houseldid not hesitate in its sup- on the table the letter which that gentleman had addressed port. What was the result of our inquiry ? That every to Lord Paninure, and while making that application he statement made by the press was verified to the letter: that stated, ou the authority of Mr. Filler, the extraordinary every story of miscond uc t, an d every h arrowing d et ai l of fact that, although be was the officer most deeply incul suffering was proved b e f ore the committee. Thus then, peta in the rep :W e its contents had never been comumni • , cater har ed g e t s a hind, ,a n, t s o h t i m h a t wae the t h fi e r s . t , p i n e t i a ni ra a n t e i e o n o f h t e h e heel re o o f r t tlg before two tribunals—th e press th e fi rst, t h at h ouse the e second, was the matter inv es ti ga t e d, an d th e same resu l t the puldic papers. In his (Sir J. Pakington'e) opinion in each case followed ; it was shown that our army was that was an injustice which neither the country nor the melting away, that we had sent abroad a body of valiant army ought to tolerate. The house would recollect that men to undertake our defence, who were netth cted, and whoa the Under-Secretary for War answered the ques left to die of cold, hunger, and disease ; that the powers tion reseecting Mr. Filler, he went out of his way to rew of England were exhausted in the hands of the imbeciles vert to a subject of which the house knew nothing, stat who then ruled, and were no longer able to protect her ing, that at the proper time he should be prepared to vin dicate the recall of Mr: Filler. Perhaps the house w ou ld sons whom she had sent to fight h er b a ttl es i n a di stant be surpused te hear that he (Sir J. Pakin g t on ) h a d t h at land. Such was the r e sult of th e t wo i nqu i ries. B ut at this time, at the vvry time when the house appointed a ;. :I n e o r n statedi ngr thateiv e n c.! another e n t e h e . a r w tletterhe reportfr . Mr. the question i t h o whi l c li h t committee to inquire into the state of the army before he in the newspapers ha had not been aware ques tl a at a he Sebastopol, the Government which had succeeded Lord was recalled at all. (Hear.) He should not trouble the Aberdeen issued a commission to inquire into the state house by reading the letter, he merely mentioned it as an of the sane army. The gentlemen appointed to this par- illustration of the manner in which the public business was pose were Sir J. M`Neill and Colonel Tulloch. Now, I conducted. (dear.) Mr. Fill er s t a t e d th at h e l e f t t h e am told that butts these gentlemen were reluctant to Crimea on the Ist of August, antler the direction of a undertake the office, that they knew the inquiry that medical beard, and unless the mewl crossed him on the voyage he had no notion that :wry Fecal had been issued. they were about to make would be a disagreeable one, He should not, however, permit himself to be drawn fur and they were unwilling to put themselves in a position which would subject them to objectionable conse- then an a intothe htter disctis sion, h reservingut there himself waso fora ne quences. But it was pressed upon them as a matter subject to which he opportun ity; attached so much portioni nterest that he of public duty. They yielded, sir ; they went to the trusted the house would allow him to make one or two ob- Crimea ; they inquired and they reported. Their first servatious respecting it. What he wished to say in the tnost report was made in the month of June, 1855. What was emphatic manner was, that in g iving his notice he b ai l out the result of this inquiry ? I dare sa y it di- appo i n t e d the slightest inte n ti on o f prejudging the case, or of doing those who appointed the commissioners. Tne result of the slightest iujumice to the officers whose conduct was ino the inquiry was to justify every assertion that had been pumeei. He-could not imagine anything more unfair than undat the moment when their Conduct uto made by the press, as they had been already justified by ergoh preliminary a re s i e j a n r in hing i t hve n stigation, he openshouldd h in that the mental , tee of this house. Certain persons were espe r conduct dally inc ulpated by the report. There were Loots Luc&s • r o h a e s y e w a e l re undoubtedly iYsc en e t s i l l n d e t o o n t e h e e r rea g te t st e f i orbearance and Cardigan, General Airey, Colonel Gordon, a, d from the Government, but be thought that if the words of Commissary-General Filder. I beg to state unreservedly . his tonendment were referred to it would be seen that -it to the house that Idu not intend to take upon myself the was the conduct of the Government, net of the officers, task of justifying the accusations of the commis: i iners ; which was impugned. Oa that point his opinion remained 1 , ie not the ohje o which I have in view, Theta persees the same, and he wished explicitly to mark the distinction were inceipate , and this was the next act of the drama, he drew between the conduct of the Government in sane- When that report was laid before the Govern relent, what tioning the p. ometiou of these officers and the conduct of was the course which o ug ht t o h ave b een pursue d ? I the officers them-mires, as about to be investigated by th e coministion. The commis-don was instructed, first, to in think that course a pl a i n an d c l tar one, au d , h a d i t b een 101 l 'wed, I think it would have been sati•Wactory to a'l ( cTi e r l e at i n ne , p o th i c w , use ts s t w h lr t e t h iel h a ael hakeltnels,toe delay it, til d e . issu e e oart:ee. Time Government should have considered the Quer . ter,nTster-G P eneral . 's de ' ptt y i t 'u men v t, the l o O l u g s i e nl' e t wal i t l if t eel rep .it as tee indictment of a gra iet jury. ---t. T i ln-ebt thatte wernment were not justiiitel in teking :tenon respect be considered as an ex parte statement, if they ne t that officer until the commission hats made its report ; pleased, not made up tn oath, but still confirmatory et d he also thought the Government hail been guilty of of and confirmed by precious inquiries. Government indis :e ion and a want of due care in promoting to ap would have been jestified upon teat report, not in eli- p t in me its (I trust et hotneotherofficers against whose con necting further inquiry, but in putting upon trial the uuet inquiry was also directed. He did not meats to say me ,west as r warded the conduct of those officers, who, he persons accused. It every person accu se d had been se n t ' hoped, would establish their inno ce n ce i n a t r i ump h ant before a ceurt-m , rtial to be tried, what would have been m i enntr bef rte the cournission, its which case his cone the result? The oersons accused would have been called upon for their eefe ,cr, no harm would have been done to i s t a a m in e. t at.,; l a r i h n a s t t t i l . : e e G eo 7 n er i n a i i h n e e n d t o w f ou a ld nd re t m he ed e n o pLe t c r ise w ly o t n h h e i any oi,e, and every tme would bare had an opportunity, co isplein of it, was, that p pending the inquiry the L . - Govern if possible, of clearing himself. What has Government meat prejudged the case by promoting these officers, al done ? They have issued a commission to certain gene- though h: thought that these officers had suffered great ral officers, to report upon the report of their own com- iejestic ,in bring compelled to submit tea new inquiry. missioners. It has been taken as an objection to me He trusts i, however, that they would not suffer from the that I have used these words. But let anybody read conduct of the Goverumeet. He believed that the errors the warrant placed on the t a bl e, an d see if l am not j ug- had been exaggerated, although they had led to the gravest queue s. Ie must be recollected that they were coin- , tified. By this proceeding, the Government have done e noTt e t e ett under circumstances of extraordinary difficulty ; irreparable injury to the army. I want to know whether, and whatever m ght have been their errors, every with this proceeding staring him in the face, you can ex- one would admit that they were men of undoubted pect any man in future to undertake a task like that gallantry and the highest honour. He thought, intrusted to Sir J. M`Neil and Col. Talloch. No man therefore, that the general feeling would be that can more admire than Ido the courage of these coin- their position before the commission ought not to be pre inissioners. They had told the truth. But in future, can iudieed by a preliminary discussion. He wished next to call the attention of the hou s e t o th e l a nguage whi c h had you depend upon men to do so ? Th e y w ill beer in mind the fate of Sir J thn INl‘Neill and his coadjutor. They been held by the Secretary ;firfr War with regard to n and to the full responsibility ecent appointwouts, and to will so shape their report as to meet the views of the pereons before whom it has to b. rem. A than in such n s ?' Government t that whatever h ild n b a e t found with i wllbtti censure-toconduct th a o t f the nositien could gem to himeelf. " The truth may be die- . guage. The noblelordhad avowed in the most distinct man co agreeable; to tell it would be to subject myself to pain and ner that the Government held itself responsible for these aps misery, and that is a risk I will not run." I ask the house pointments. And in doing so he (Sir J. Pakington) thought is not that human nature? But beyond this you are sub- they had adopted the pottier course. On that subject, how stituti eg an inefficient for an efficient inquiry. If it was an ver, like the others, he should abstain from troubling, the objection to the Sebastopol Committee that it sat 3,000 house at greater length. (A. laugh.) It was quite right that miles from the seat of war, is it not an objection that the the house should understand where the responsibility lay, but further than this passing a ll u si on h e s h ou l.s pos t pone board of general officers wou id b e equa l ly di stant f rom the scene of affairs ? TiweGover n m en t h av i ng sen t corn observation on the matter, confining himself to a repetition • f missioners to the seat of war, having thems e lve s ap - le his inability to suppose the m o tio n of th e h on . an d pointed those commissioners, having r e ceived thei r re.arned measlier for Sheffield. General PEEL said that the reluctance he always felt port, the whole of which they have not yet preduc e d t o the house—they sub titute tor that the very when addressing the house was imme asura bly i ncrease d s mode i f in quiry with which they found so much fault when I pre. when he felt obliged to ask its attention while he said a posed the appointment of a committee of this house. few words respecting himself. ( dear.) But at the same There is this differeece, however. I proposed a mode of time he felt bound not to sit silent under such sneers and inquiry which the house granted, and it placed upon implications as hail been indulged in by the hen, and the committee men of different opinions, so t' at truth learned member for Sheffield. If the house would grant was likely to be elicited, for that which one man ee 1 hitn its indulgence for a few minutes he would show them desire to conceal another would wish to be brou h t that if he had not had the good fortune to see active ser light. But what is the cornolexion of this come ittee ? ice it was not his fault, but his misfortune. He selected First upon it are some old eenthenert who hare set n v t in ' the , arm ,not no tithe of peace, but in the height of the great service ; for the it I have the greaten, p t.s re euiusular war. At the age of 14 be went to Seudhurst epect. But I teinle we had a conversation some nights passed - through all his examinations and three drays helot!! ago about ill judees which is applicable here. T. the battle of Waterloo, when lie was 153 years ' ofaee, he very same arguments which applie l to cld judges ripen ,Mtained his ensigncy in the 95th, now the Rifle Brigade. the bench there—the Queen's Bencn—applied t i old He next joined a regiment which was equally distiu judges upon the bench here. Then there are cet tai guished, the Grenadier Guards, left it with promotion and ear e et enighte in the cermnission—men who never saw returned to the line. After 12 years' service he was sp a shot fired. I want to know what is theie capacity for pointed to the colouelcy of a zegiteent, anti he thought he judging a question like this ? T here i s one o th er g - had just light to as s um e th a t h e , a t t h e ti me, was d eeme d e tiernan upon the list, the hon. and gall an t mem b er for L e ll ortti t y no boil the appointment, f o r th e Cernmenderhin auntiogdon (General Pel). I can understand the qua weirs"pltoinbett e w s l in him t h o e his re o e w e ri , u r t e a g t i i in v e a n i t n . p , S r h il o a r tn t t en l ! t o t ( t e . r a lideetien of teat Is tn. :Ind gallant ge n tlem an . O e every , large constituency—th a t of p Norwich, and as there wits no eec e sso n I fled him on the side o' the prs ins accused. prospect of war, he devoted himself entirely to the ser- I don't meen to see , that the hoe, anti gallant mem- tics of his constituents. (!',ear ) When the present war her, in giving his opinion, has acted in any way discre- broke out, circulars were sent to all otficers, asking Bitable to his frank and truthful disposition ; but I say whether they were able and willing to sere, and he an that the fact of his taking such a view is the great reason swered affirmatively in both particulars. (Cheers.) But ter his appointmeet. If he had formed ether opinions, lie did more. He wrote to the Secretary foe Wax, stating if he ha I eaken another course he would not have been that being blessed with more than ordinary health and there. I would ask this !tense to consider with me the strength, he was notify to serve any where anti in any cape censequences of tide proceeding. First of a'l, it will city. Again, after the battle of lukennitn, when it was the weaken , reported that many officers wished to re t urn h ome o n a c support of our army. We vend gallant , count of their health, he went to his gallant the men abroad ; they go to fight our battles ; they have the i • • telling commander-in-chief, him he was ashamed to hold idea that the aegis of Eigland is over them wherever they t the rank he did without service, anti that he was most may be ;they look to this house to protect them ; in all l anxious to go out, to the war in any capacity. Ho thought it their dangers and distresses their regards are turned to too bad that he who had always been ready and anxious to home. What is the case of the army in the Crimea ? I can eerie should -be thus taunted oy the hon. anti learned mem understand a gallant man stricken in the field, and full of her. Then when the hon. and learned member accused life and health made at one blow a corpse. I can under- him of always voting with the accused, he might say that stand him dying with a full feelingin his heart that he the difference between him and the hon. and learned mem• would be attended by the good wishes of his countrymen, ber was that the hon. aud learned member was always ready to assume the guilt of the accused, while he (General But the 'soldier in the Crimea suffered a very different m Peel wait f il until he had heard the evidence, (Loud fats ;he suffered cold, and hunger, and thirst, and died e with the feeling that he was deserted by his country. Then cent e re until .) eases i e n o e m o e - I say to this house, be careful how you possess your army before the committee ire which there were direct accuse with the idea that you desert them in the time of their tions egaiust intlividu de. One was against Admiralßoxer need. Nothing that you have done for• the army has for having detained a transport, and he (General . Peel) been felt so much as the anxiety which you showed last at once moved that it should be reported to the Ad year for its safety and comfort. Now if you turn round miralty. The other was that of an officer accused of do and take another course, you say that we were governed tai I L I tto "6 . the Ho -guards of his regiment, a nd i n th a t case he by party feeling, that we had no care for the army, we ;l e y the accusal-ng,uvaaredassteoeidteamanidoancotzt following H d ip. thought of ourselves. If you allow them to draw that to bo unfounded ; but he thought these instances went conclusion woe he to your army, woe be to England ; some way in controverting the hon. an i learned member's you will endanger the glory of England if you desert assertion. His (General Peel's) anxiety when on the coin the army which fought for her. (Hear.) The hon. meal- mittee had been only to elicit the truth and to further the ber concluded by moving the following resolution : ends of justice. ' (Hear, hear.) "That the appointment of a commission of general officers Mr. PEEL could not concur in the hon. baronet's eulo to report upon the report of Sir J. MelCeill and Col. Telloch, gium on his own amendment, but he could concur with is to substitute an inefficient for a very efficient mode of in him in o othin th pp g o motion of th e h on . an d l earne d mem quiry : and that th e e ff ec t o f suc h appo i n t me nt will be to ,_ . hide the miscond uc t o f th ose b y w h om var i ous departments °er. With the instinctive fooling of English gentlemen the of our army have been subjected to the command of officers house would refuse to enter into a case which seas about to who have been inculpated by the Commissioners appointed to be submitted to a board of general officers. He was not inquire into their conduct." surprised, however, that the hon. and learned member for Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion. Sheffield should bring forward this motion, for in doing so Sir J. PAKINGTON found himself in the difficult po- he was only following the course he had taken in the pre salon of being unable to proceed with the motion of which ceding year. The hon. and learned member minutely de he had given notice, on account of the interposition of the tailed themotion he had male in the previous year in order forms of the house. He was ono who entertained a very to procure the Crimean committee, but he altogether decided opinion as to the conduct of her Majesty's Go- • dto mention thatwhen omitted vernmeut with reference to the transactions to which the table, he submitted a motion stigmatising every member of hon. member (Ur. Roebuck) had adverted. In cense- Government who had been in office when the disasters oc queue() of that opinion it had been his intention to ask the curried. The answer to that motion was, that had the mem_ opinion of the house on the subject. He felt that, for leers of the Government, known what the hen. and learned various reasons, it would ho better to postpone the mo- member was about to do, they would have demanded to be tion. And within the last few days circumstances had themselves examined before the committee. The case to night was somewhat similar. A case was about to be s u b arisen which greatly strengthened his convi c ti on . A com mitted to a board of general officers, and before they h ai l mission bad been issued by her Majesty, and th ere f ore it even commenced their labours the hon. and learnett mem , might be seriously doubted whether the present was a ber so ight to take the opielion of the house upon the sue fitting time for introducing the subject to the house. But rits. With regard to the Government, the hon. and learned the hon. and learned member for Sheffield had thought member said that Government had appointed this commie proper at once to raise the question, and Isis announcement 1 sion to screen their own misconduct, but the house would to that effect rendered it imper dive th a t h o (Si r J . P a k - I not be love that Government would be guilty of such solemn ington) should at once place cm record the views that i mockery et to issue is formal document creating a board he entertained. The noble lord , however (Palmer- merely with the object of screening their own misconduct. ston), having refuse •to the hon. and learned member the The hon. and learned member now complimented the Cri opportunity of introducing the subject as a substantive mo- mean cominisWouers, bat at the time of their appointment tion, he (Sir J. Pakington) was precluded from giving t o the hon. and learned member declared them unfit for their his views the form of an amendment, the mode which, as work, and that their mission would turn out a sham. Yet he had given notice, he hail intended to have adopted. In i all this was now forgotten, and the commissioners were de seying this he did not intend to impute any blame to the i el :red to be the most ze dons and impartial that could be se noble bed at the head of the Government, who hail never I le cted. Then with respect to the present ceminission the hon. been wanting in courtesy to hon. members on teat (the ' and le tweed mem eer said that the government had appointed Opposition) side of the !muse, but merely to explain why his ! re erimean wen inisson, anti now they a p tinted wordier to views could not be br o ught before the house in the form of imi Qin) into the coeti set of th 3 cow initsion Nom there was an amendment. He whaled if, to be understood that it eves not a eyrie ble of truth in that assumption. The commis only because he was precluded by the forms of the house i stoners went to the Crimea, not to inquire into theconduct that he abstained fro m mov i ng an amendment on the pre, of certain officers, but to inquire generally into the conduct sent oceteiou- He must alsoadd that, while precluded from of the commissariat. That was the first in traction, and, moving his own amendment, he was equally unable to sup- , three days aft e r, further instructions were sent out that port the motion of the hen, an d l earne d member. It w a s ' they should inquire into the oelay in the unshito , in; and true that within the last few days the hon. and learned dimributittu of the goods Wh re did the hon. and learned member had considerably modified his proposal, but as the member find in their instructions any directions to inquire hon. and learned member had omitted many points which , into the conduct of the officers? °telt - to be included, ho (Sir J. Pakington) felt dill unable ' Mr. ROEBUCK—I beg pardon, (Order, order, I Mr. ROEBUCK—Hear, hear. (Cheers.) Mr. PEEL would undertake to say that the impression of the commissioners themselves was that they were not to inquire into the conduct of any particular officers ; and this the hon. and learned member would see, if he turned to those parts of the report containing the copy of the letter addressed by them to Lord Raglan and of their communications to the Quartermaster-General's depart ment. Again, it seemed to be the impression that the commissioners who went out to the Crimea carried on their inquiry in an open manner. But that was not the case. It was essentially a closed court. No other person was present before them when they were taking evidence than the witness actually ender examination, and no one witness knew anything of what was said by any other; but surely had the commissioners gone out to inquire into the misconduct of the officers in the Quarter master-General's and Commissariat departments, they would have had those offieere before them from time to time, and have taken evidence as to their conduct. (Hear.) The couclading proposition of the resolution, that the commission was appointed to inquire into the conduct of certain officers, was not then correct. Then the hon. and learned member said that the Government, having received the report of the commission, issued another commission to report upon that report. As he understood the hon. and learned member, he contended that the Government ought to have appointed a court-martial, and summoned the office: s nculpated by the report to appear before them, and the reason he gave was, that the board of general officers was composed entirely of milita men. Ho said that, "in the tribunal over which I piled last year, I took care to intermingle civilians with military men." Mr. ROEBUCK—I said nothing of the led. (Order.) Mr. F. PEEL—The hon. and learned gentleman cer tainly said, " I object to this board of general officers, be cause it is composed of military men." Mr. ROEBUCK—Military men of one opinion. (Hear.) Mr. PEEL—Just so ; and the hon. and learned member added that it was composed of men advanced in years. But had the hon. and learned gentleman Inade inquiry he would have found that he was in error in supposing that these officers were s) advanced in years as he intimated. But the principal objection of the hon. and learned member was, that the board was to sit in England to review the proceedings of a commission that made their inquiry upon the spot. The objection that the inquiry was to be con ducted iu England did not weigh with the hon. and learned member when he appointed his oWn committee, and re fused to adopt the suggestion of his noble friend (Lord Palmerston) that a commission should proceed to the Cri mes to inquire into the conduct of those who were respon sible theta for supplying the troops with stores and pro visions, while the committee sat here to inquire into the management of the authorities at home. The speech of the honourable and learned member would lead to the sup position that he had failed to masks himself acquainted with the contents of the repel. He (air. Peel) had made himself acquainted with the contents of that document, and could not deny that the officers against whom charges were therein imputed had a right to demand further inquiry and investig Aden into the wetter. The first point to inquire into was whether the report was in all respects founded upon evidence. It was plain that the e were passages in the report inculpatiugeertein officers who served in the Crimea, but he refused to give his adhesion to those statements, unless he found that they had nothing to advance in their defence. One of the gravest charges against Col. Gordon was that he had neglected to issue greatcoats and blankets at the proper time, and the troops suffered severely in consequence. That was a serious charge against the quartermaster-general's department, seeing the t they had the articles in store. Acci - ,ating to the commis sioners one of the reasons:lle:4mi by Coll. C ordon why hr dot nut issue the coats was that there was a regnleton in :h., army under which grew ceats could only be serve,) out to the men once in three years. It was hardly poviible to accept a statement so improbable without examining the evideucs. But when they turned to the evidence they looked in vain for any passage in which Colonel Gordon assigned that as a reason. The commissioners then said that the Government ought to have sent out special iustractions for dispensing with that regulation, or, if they did not, an application ought to have been made by the Quartermaster-General's department to the acting Commander-in-Chief for a dispen sation, and if neither of these courses were available, they ought to have taken the authority upon themselves. Bat in no part of the evidence did it appear that Colonel Gordon said that he was prevented from issuing the great coats by the existence of the warrant confining the issue to one great coat in three years to each man, or the diffi culty of obtaining a dispensation from that, warrant. There was another reason why the Government could not adopt the report as conclusive, and why it was ne,sisary to appoint a tribunal to receive evidence. It was stated by the commissioners that the troops remained seven or eight weeks after their landing rat Eupatoria and march ing upon the Alma before they had their knapsacks re turned to them, and that they suffered severely in conse quence from the want of ordinary necessaries ; and that Col. Gordon, when he was asked " How do you account for that delay ?" answered that, shortly after the battle of the Alma, a circular was addressed to all the general offi cers commanding divisions inviting them to say whether they wished the men to have their knapsacks returned to them, and that they all declined to receive them. They added that when they (the commissioners) returned to Eng land they inquired of the generals of division who hap pened to be in this country as to the truth of this state ment, and that the reply of one was that no such offer ever was made, of another teat he had no recollection of it, and a third they had not been able to see. This was a state ment which directly impugned the veracity of Col. Gor don, and without inquiry who could say which party was right? What Col. Gordon now said was, that when he gave that answer to the commissioners he had in his hand the letters of three of the generals commending divisions distinctly 'declining to receive the knapsacks, and that another had explained to him verbally why he did not N,yish to receive them, and that there was au entry in the official memorandum book of the Quartermaster -General's department confirming this statement. Then as to the case of General Airey—would it have been fair to have condemned him upon this report, unsuppoi tad by evidence? (Hoar.) The charge again s t th e Quartermaster -General's department was, that having plenty of stores on hand they neglected to issue them. Well, Gen. Airey was at the head of that department, and was the responsible party. But when the report was looked into, it did not appear that Gen. Airy was ever called before the commissioners or exa mined by thesis at all. It was true that the commissioners prepared certain written questions, and that Gen. Airily gave written answers to them ; but with regard to the non issuing of the stores at the proper time, which was the only point on which the Quartermaster-General's depart ment was condemned in the report, it did not appear that any explanation was asked or given. lie thought these circumstances afforded ample grounds for the appointment of the board of general officers, to afford an opportunity to the officers whose conduct was impugned to give their own explanation of the facts. The right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) was dissatisfied with the Go vernment for not comuauuicating the remelt to the force Guards before laying it upon the table of the house ; but that coarse would have occasioned delay, and in all proba bility there would have been a motion in the house, which ceuld scarcely have been resisted, for the immediate production of the document. No inconvenience could possibly have resulted from the report nut having been sent to the Horse Guards in the first instance ; it was re ceived by the War Department only a day or two after the house net, was immediately laid upon the table, and the Horse Guards were iu possesion of it at as early period almost as it would have been had it been sent to the Horse Guards in the first instance. As the honour able and learned member's resolution distinctly chat g the Government with misconduct in having appointed officers who were inculpated by the commissioners' report, hem felt bound to enter into some explanation upon that point. The hon. and learned member said that the officers whose conduct was most inculpated were Lord Lucan, Lord Cardigan, General Airey, and Col. Gordon. Now he would take the case of Lord Cardigan first. The ap pointment which had been given to that officer was In spector-General of Cavalry. But when was he appointed ? Shortly after the brilliant charge which Lord Cardigan had headed at Belaklava, when all the country was resounding with the praises of that noble lord's gallantry—long before the commission w. s appointed, and even before the Government by which that commission had been appointed was in existence. How that appointment could be made a charge of misconduct on the part of the Government he could not understand. Then with regard to Lord Lucan, who had been appointed to the command of a cavalry regiment. Considering that he was one of the seven general officers who commanded a disision in the Crimea, and as every other general officer who had com manded a division had been appointed to the command of a regiment, he could not conceive that there was anything wrong in that appointment, especially as it also was made before the commission had reported, and when it was not known that any accusation would be made against him in that document. Then there was the case of Col. Gordon, who had been appointed Deputy Quartermaster-General at the Horse Guards. In Dec., 185 a Lord Raglan recom mended Col. Gordon to be Queen's Aide-de-Campoand De puty Quartermaster-General of his army. That recom mendation was not attended to by Lord Harding; and in May, 1855, Lord Raglan again recommended that he should be made a Queen's Aide-de-Camp, and promoted to the rank of full oolonel, he having been previously lieu tenant-colonel. But Colonel Gordon was not made a Qneen's Aide-de-Camp, and he succeeded to the rank of colonel, not by the influence of Lord Raglan's recommen dation, but by seniority. Then, with regard to his being appointed Deputy Quartermaster-General. When Lord Raglan died, Colonel Gordon came heme. Ha was about to return to the Crimea, when at that moment the office of Deputy Quartermaster-General at the Horse Guards be came vacant ; and it was considered that as Lord Raglan, who had had personal experience of his abilities, had recom mended him to fill a corresponding office in the Crimea— a more fit person could not be appointed. (Hear, hear.) In this case likewise, then, he contended, there had been no misconduct on the part of the Government, the appoint ment having been made ere the commission had reported. (Hear, hear.) The argument of the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) was, that they wore wrong in appointing persons upon • whose conduct an inquiry was in point of fact pending ; but, if that principle were carried out, the Government would have been debarred from availing themselves of the services of any officer who had been en gaged in any one of the departments to which the inquiry of the commissioners extended ; and Colonel Wellesley, who, as officer in the Quartermaster-General's department, was to a certain extent responsible for the issue of stores, could not have been appointed First Deputy Quarter. master-General of the Turkish Contingent, and afterwards to the command of the Land Transport Corps ; for both of which appointments he had proved himself eminently qualified. He next came to the case of General Airey. General Airey was Quartermaster -General of the Army, first under Lord Raglan, and afterwards under General Simpson ; and when the office of Quartermaster-General became vacant by the retirement of General Freeth, who had filled it for forty-two years, Lord Hardingo naturally availed himself of the se.vices of an offieer who had served two years is the Crimea in the very department which was then vacant, aril it must have been a great advantage to Lord Panmure and Lord Hardinge, while the war was going on, to have it their disposal the experience of an officer who had bees in such a position. The estimate of the character and Knows of Genera s:en to inquire into the Crimean report; and no doubt it was intended to have sat with closed doors, but the popu lar feeling was so decidedly against such a course that the noble lord came down to the house and said it was never intended to b otheriviso than open. However, as the proceedings of the cornwissiou were to be open, ho (Mr. Layard) should pursue a different course to that which ho should have taken if it had been a closed one. He had so ver:4l objections to the commission. One was, that it was to inquire into and report upon a report. The warrant stated "that an inquiry should he made by the general officers hereinafter named into the statements contained in thane reports, and evidence affecting our officers above re ferred to; cud that they aie hereby directed to summon such persons as may be judged necessary by the said gene ral officers to give information upon the said matters; and tha said general officers are hereby directed to hear and examine such persons touching the same ; and they are fur ther hereby authorised, empowered, and required, after strut examination into the matters before mentioned, to make a report thereupon, together with their opinion whe ther the said officers of our army above referred to be or be not responsible to any and what extent for the unsatisfac tory condition of our said army, or any portion thereof, noticed by Sir J. M'Neil and Colonel Tulloch in their reports, and the evidence thereunto attached." It di rected au inquiry into the report which had been accepted by the Government and made by the men chosen by the Government. The mode in which Sir John M'Neil and Colonel Tulloch conducted the examination Was re markable. They did not commence by examining general officers; but they went to the lowest is rank and took the junior officers first, and then worked their way up to the higher grades; for they knew that not a single mail among the junior officers would say a word to contradict the eri- dance of their superiors in rank. He had read the whole • of the evidence, and though there was much of it that was readily given, yet there was much more that many of the o:ficers were afraid to give. The course which the Go vernment was now taking justified those officers iu being afcail to give their evidence, for no one could assert that the junior officers would dare to speak the whole truth before the new commission. Any one who knew anything of the Horse Guards knew that; and he would appeal to any officers of the army or of the navy in the Louse to say whether a junior officer would dare to give evidence to contradict, that of his senior in rank? He would refer to a ease which would illustrate the position he had laid down. Seine time ago there was a rebellion in Ceylon, aid certain proclamations were issued by a Captain Wat son, which were very arbitrary and violent in their lan guage, so much so that an inquiry into the matter wa ordered. Two civil servants in the Madras service—judges, and mtaa of high character—wore sent to Ceylon to inves tigate the subject, and they decided that on the evidence it appeared that the proclamations were issued by Captai❑ Watson, and that he was guilty of that With which lie had been charged. The Horse Guards, however, interfered, and ordered a court-martial on Captain Watson, which was a second inquiry, and which ended iu his being ac quitted ; and yet there was not a man in Ceylon who knew the facts but knefi that this was all got up, and that Captain Watson was brought to a court-martial only with a view to exculpate him in the face of the former inquiry He objected to the commission alto because of the mode of inquiry which it involved. The Commander-in-Chief had said the other evening, in another place, that the officers in this case ought to have the same powers as the Crimean Commission. If that was so, was the whole of the evidence already taken to be gone over egain?— were witnesses to be called to contradict the assertions made by those who were mow in the Crimea, without those persons being heard ? Another objection was, that no oath was to be taken by the board, or by those whom it was to examine. He objected also tothe competency of the officers of whom the beard was composed. He regretted that the hon. and gallant member for Huntingdon was not in his place, because ho wished to say to him that he had misun derstood what his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Roebuck) lead said. Both that hon. gentleman and himself would be the last to say a word against the honour and gallantry of the hon. and gallant gentleman; and all that was said was, that the hon. and gallant gentleman had had no experience iu the field, which the hon. gentleman himself admitted ; though, with a degree of feeling which properly affected the house, he had explained how that had happened, and the efforts he had made to carry out his aesire to see service. He (Hr. Layard) did not think the composition of the board was such as would be received with confidence by the country. There should have been on it such men as Sir W. Napier and Sir G. Pollock, whe had had large experi ence of arms in the field, and then the board would have created confidence in the public. again, the commission n•as undoubtedly a reflection on Sir J. M'Neil and Colonel Tulloch. By the terms of the warrant they were to inquire into the statements of those gentlemen, and tL at was a re flection upon them. Besides all this, it was pu sible that the proceedings of the commission might be for so long a time delayed that the house would not be in a position to take any steps in the matter. The house should be very watchful on that point ; for on the pretext of sending for witnesses to the Crimea, and so on, there might be a delay of months, and until such time as the session was over. He was sorry to hear the Moverntnent justify the appoint ment of this commission by a reference to the commission which sat to inquire into the Convention of Cintra. Thole were some remarkable comments made on that commis sion, which were illustrative of the present position of things, and which he would take the liberty of reading. Mr. Windham was reported to have said as fol lows : Mr. F. PEEL—WeII, the officer who presided over that department in lit 4 was the same who presided over it now. (Ironical chaers from Mr. Roebuck and. Mr. Layard.) That cheer, he supposed, meant that that officer ought not now to be at the head of the department, but let the returns of the state of the army speak for the fact. There were now 7 deaths in 7 days out of 70,000 men, and look at that in comparison with last year, when, with a force one third or one half in number, the number of deaths were 105 a week. Take any other department of the army in the Crimea, and it would be found that men were ap• pointed to fill them who were the fittest for their posts. With these remarks he would leave the question in the hands of the house, and he had no donght from what the right hon. gentleman opposite (Sir J. Pakington) had said that the house would shrink from taking any course which would prevent the officers implicated from making their explanations to the board of general officers who had been appointed, and that it would be admitted that some credit was due to the Government, who had done their utmost to bring together an army se strong in numbers, so imbued with martial spirit, and so eager to measure their strength with the enemy, that although every one must desire that peace would be the result of the conference now sitting, and that every practicable means should be pursued to ob tain it, yet if war was the only alternative that remained, and it was adopted by this country, there could be no doubt as to its results. Mr. BENTINCK characterised the motion of Mr. Roe buck as ill-timed and inopportune, and taunted him with having been the only member who, during this session, had endeavoured to disturb the course which the house had been inclined to adopt at this juncture. The course taken by the hon. gentleman, and the opinion he had expressed with regard to the objects for % which England had en tered on the present war, were such as not to justify him (Mr. Bentinck) iu having any confidence in the motion which he had now brought forward. Mr. LAYARD hoped to be allowed to address a few words to the house in consequence of a motion in connectic n with this subject which ho had put on the paper. Without any disparagement to the motion of his hon. and learned friend, he must say that he thought his (Ar. Layard's) own motion preferable to the hos. and learned gentleman's. It was a question whether this commission ought to be the subject of discussion, and he would limit himself to that part of the subject. The right hon. gentleman opposite (Sii• J. Pakington) said that the house ought nob to enter into this question, and he agreed with him so far as the conduct of the officers which was impugned in the report was concerned. After what had been done by the Govern ment, he thought it unadvisable to take such a course, and he had listened with surprise to the unwise and indiscreet speech of the Under-Secretary for war. He would not go over the whole subject of the state of the army in the Cri mea, which was known to every man, but he would remind the house that, when the motion of the hen, and learned gentleman last year was carried, and was followed by the fall of the Government, the noble lord now the First Mi nister made a very remarkable speech, and endeavoured to take the inquiry out of the hands of the house, tieing the words of a kin; of former times, and stating that he would bo their leader, and see that inquiry was made into the al leged culpab'lity and the guilty punished. Notwithstand ing that speech the committee was appointed, and tho in quiry went on. Besides this, the noble lord chose two most unexceptionable gentlemen to make an inquiry on the spot, which the committee could not de definitively. He had sent Sir J. M'Neill and Col. Tulloch to the spot to inquire into the condition of the army and to report to the house and the country. The appointments were unexcep tionable. Sir J. M`Neill began life as a surgeon is the army, and was therefore highly qualified in that respect for the task he undertook • besides which he had repre sented the country with ability in Persia, and knew some thing of the resources of the East ; and latterly he had held asemi-official appointment in Scotland, and was habituated to dealing with evidence. Col. Tulloch also was an officer of high character and experience. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Peel) had said that he (ifr. Layard) had criticised those appointments, because he had said that their report would be a sham. He was right, however, in saying that it would be a sham, that is, that the Government never would adopt it. The hon. gentleman had himself said that the Government had overthrown the report, for he complained that General Airey had not been heard before the commissioners, because Sir John M`Neill had, on ac count of ill health, left the Crimea before he had an op portunity of dein.. so. He (Mr. Layard) had had some conversation with Sir J. M'Neill at the time that he was appointed, and that gentleman told him that his health was very delicate, and that he undertook the task with reluc tance, but that it had been pressed on him by the Govern ment, and he felt it to be his duty to consent to act. Had not the hon. gentleman (Mr. Peel) justified his (Mr. Lay aed's) prognostications with regard to the way n which the Government would deal with the report ? He would not go into the report on that occasion, but it was a fact that the gentlemen appointed went to the Crimea to report on the state of things; they were to act like a judge in sum ming up a ease ; they were to state all the facts, and give no opinion of their own ; they were to produce the evi dence given before them, and leave it to the house and the country to pass a judgment upon it ; and surely they were as able to do that as any board of general officers. The Government had adopted the report and communicated it to the house; they had accepted it and endorsed it with their sanction, and he had heard the hon. gentleman's mode of dealing with it with surprise. There were two points on which he would remark. The hon. gentleman had charged Sir J. Dl`Ncill and Col. Tulloch with want of veracity, and he referred to a part of Col. Gordon's evidence, and stated that Sir J. M`Neill and Col. Tulloch had said that Colonel Gordon stated that the men's knapsacks had not been given to them because the generals of aivision had refused to re fund them, whereas, according to Sir J. M'Neill, three generals had denied that to him. In this instance the re port only stated these things as facts, and it did not say which was in the right. The hon. gentleman said that Col. Gordon's letters showed that he was right, but he ought not to have ()barged Sir J. M`Neill and Col. Tulloch with want of veracity. Mr. PEEL had never impugned the veracity of the com missioners, but all he said was that Col. Gordon had made an assertion on one side, and the commissioners on the other, and the Government would not undertake to say which was right. Mr. LAYARD—The next point was with regard to the greatcoats. The )son. gentleman said that Sir J. M'Neill and Colonel Tulloch had stated that they were not served out because Col. Gordon said that the issue of great coats was restricted by the Queen's warrant to one in three years, and that there was no such words in Col. Gordon's evidence. The usual Horse Guards' coarse was pursued here—the weak men were overthrown and the strong triumphed. The hon. gentleman's explanation with regard to Mr. Filler was as lame as it possibly could be. The hon. gentleman said that Mr. Filder was not actually re called ; but a recall it was in the strict sense of the word, and no glossing of the hon. gentleman would make the matter different. When public opinion was "loudly ex pressed on this subject the noble lord at the head of the Uoveznraeat, with his usual tactics, appointed a commis " What the Ministers wanted was, that, as a public tri bunal, they should determine whether the country ought to acquit his Majesty's advisers. They pervert, therefore, the whole nature of the tribunal, and have produced out of it such a strange, anomalous, and inconsistent proceed ing, as was never known in the laws of this or of any other country, and which cannot be made conclusive to any pur pose that shell be at once rational and honest. It is a trial and no trial. It can neither condemn so as to inflict punish ment on the guilty, nor acquit so as to protect the inno cent from prosecution. * " * The Ministers wanted to hush up the business so as to prevent that full disclosure which a trial would bring out, and which might involve statements not so convenient to themselves. For this purpose either no trial at all, or an inquiry in the re ' gular mode, with shut doors, would have been most con venient. But that the impatience of the public would not readily acquisce in. To that the terrors of the newspapers were opposed. They therefore conceived and brought forth that monstrous production, unknown to oar laws and our usages, an open court of inquiry, of which the only effect has been to throw dust in the eyes of the people by a show of trial without the reality." That was prophetic of this very case. He would take next the opinion of Lord H. Petty, the present Marquis of Lansdowne, who was opposed to the appointment of that commission. Lord H. Petty said : " I am sure that in this house it will not be thought that any form of inquiry that has passed already, or anything that has borne the name of inquiry, has been of a nature to preclude the expediency and necessity of this house taking up the inquiry itself, because, with whatever respect I may view the individual and military characters of the parsons who composed the beard of inquiry, assembled by his Majesty's command, I must say that, constituted as that board was, and directed as its functions were, that board was a tribunal more iecompetent to give satisfaction to the country, more irreconcileable with all the known and received principles oflaw and equity in this caentry, than any which has ever existed. * * * " I hold in my hand the opinion delivered by Lord Wood houseleo ou the subject of courts of inquiry. Ho asserts that although there is in the king a power inherent to convene such boards as courts of advice, yet still that their decisions have no binding effects on the party accused ; a id though it has happened that persons suspected have been examined by them, the call was not founded in justice, nor can persons be compelled to obey them. Iu this opinio❑ Mr. Macarthur and Mr. Adey, two gentlemen who have also written on the subject, concur. " * There is, be sides, in our iiistory a memorable instance, in which the reference to such a court was pregnant with evils ; yet, be believed that this very instance, which has proved in its operation so mischievous and in its conse quences so pregnant with evil, was the very identical pre cedent on which the servants of the Crown recommended to their Sovereign' the formation of the late court of in quiry. I allude to the case of Sir J. Mordaunt,. whose conduct was first submitted to the board of inquiry which next sent him to a court-martial, when he was acquitted upon the ground that the only evidence against him arose from his own answers tending to criminate himself. Such an example is of itself sufficient to satisfy the house of the inconveniences and disadvantages arising from that parti cular mode of inquiry. I therefore do think myself justi fied in asserting that a oourt of inquiry, held as this has been, opening its door to the public, calling upon the very parties to give their testimony, and drawing from them in formation by which they were to be subjected to criminal prosecution, was a tribunal calculated rather to defeat than to oromote the ends of justice or to give satisfaction to tLe public. Even by the constitution of the court itself it was impossible for it to inquire into any demerits beyond those of the officers." Upon the same occasion, Sir A. Wellesley, afterwards the great Duke of Wellington, said— " He perfectly agreed with the noble lord (Lord H. Petty) in the wish that this court of inquiry might be the last of the kind which should assemble. It was not a court before which any officer would desire to bei tried. (Hear, hear.) A general impression had g one abroad that this court had been instituted by his noble friend (Lord Castlereagh) out of friendship to him. It was rather hard upon him to be subjected to such a reflection ; as, if he had been tried in any other manner, he must have been acquitted. As far as he was concerned, ho must say, without meaning to blame any of the members, that this court had been a source of injustice, and he therefore hoped it would be the last court of the kind to which the investigation of the conduct of officers should be submitted." Those were the opinions of three of the highest authorities upon such a question, and yet the Government professed now to rest their determination to appoint the court upon the course which had been pursued on former occasions, and upon the commission of inquiry into the Convention of Cintra. (Hear.) Now, it really did appear to him that, upon this occasion, the Horse Guards had brought these censures entirely upon themselves. They had virtually bid defiance to the country. Notwithstanding the complaints and and the indignation of the country t he y had said, No, you may prove what you can against the officers concerned, you may prove them to be utterly incapable,( but we will exercise the authority wo have, and appoint or promote them in spite of you." It had been said that Sir Richard Airoy was appoiuted:in September ;'but as he (Mr.Layard) believed, he was appointed on the 26th December, which made a very great difference. It was true that Lord Pau inure had stated he never saw the printed report until it was submitted to the house ; bnt had Lord Panmuro never seen the written report ? If so, he was almost the only man in any position in the country who did not see it ; for he (Mr. Layard) knew it was seen by many before the end of the month of September. Mr.PEEL observed that the report which had reference to Lords Liman and Cardigan had not been presented at that time. Mr. LA.YARD replied that the hon. gentleman hat ) gone out of his way to defend Lords Lucati and Cardigan, whose case had not even been alluded to by the preceding speak ers. The fact was that the hon. gentleman had prepared a speech in answer to the speech which he supposed would be made by himself (Mr. Layard) in bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice, and which, for rea sons of his own, he had postponed to a more favourable opportunity. The hon. gentleman would be able, No doubt, to defend Lord Luc= and Lord Cardigan when they were attacked. The hen. gentleman had also gone out of his way to deal with the case of Dr. Hall. Now, if there was any one case more gross than another, it was the case of Dr. Hall. The Sebastopol Committee had re ported against him ; the evidence of Lord Hardinge and the evidence of Dr. Andrew Smith was against him ; nod the only man whom Sir John M'Neil and Col. Tulloch directly censured, and almost charged with a want of vera city, was Dr. He.ll ; and in spite of that, only three weeks ago, on the 6th Feb. ' Dr. Hall was gazetted to a N.C . B . Now there could not be the excuse ' in that case, that the I Government had not seen the reports against Dr. Hall be fore they conferred this distinction upon him. This was au ezaulple of the wanner in which the house and the country were treated. It was thus that we were get into disgace, not only it home, but ell - ;roail. Only two ler three days age, itt Paris, be heard some remarks ma / upon the fact that General Airey, whose conduct was im pugued, was amongst the persons selected for honours anti rewards. He (Mr. Layard) did not mean to say that Gen. Airey was not innocent, for he would not now prejudge him ; but he ought not to have been recommended to the place which he now held under such circumstances. The Horse Guards had joined issue with Parliament and the country upon this matter, by promoting these men and despising public opinion. He believed the country was ready to accept the issue, and if the Horse Guards were de feated there could be but one result. The people would no longer endure such a system as that by which our best inte rests were sacrificed. He would now go no farther with the subject. He had stated his objections to this commission. He did think that, when the time should come for the house to take up the inquiry, and pronounce its verdict on the offi cers concerned, the house would act up to its duty and do j us tice by those who had fallen, not by the hand of the enemy, but by the incompetence or negligence of those whom the country had sent forth to take care of them. Cu). NORTH observed that the hon. member for Ayles leery had made a sort of crusade against the officers of the army, old and young ; and it was owing to him that gallant vetersns had been spoken of, and written of, in a manner very painful to their feelings. The Government ought to have come forward to defend them, and to have vindicated Lord Raglan in his lifetime. It was quite understood, from the answer given by the noble lord at the head of the Government to a question which was asked of him last session, that the report of the commissioners would not be Ivid on the table of the house at all, but used merely for the information of Government. With regard to his gal lant friend, Sir R. Airey, ha (Col. North) felt confident that he would be satisfactorily cleared of the charges against him, It was extraordinary that the report had not been communicated to Lord Har.dinge, even if it were only as a mere matter of courtesy. General Sir DE LACY IiVANS—I should have been very glad, sir, to have remained silent on this occasion, but after what has taken place it is impossible for me to re frain from troubling the house with a few observations. entirely concur with the hon. and gallant gentleman who spoke last in the eulogies he has paused on my brother offi cers ; but the remark which he made, to the effect that 99 out of every 100 persons in the country will refuse to credit any report which the proposed Government Commission might draw up, could hardly have been agreeable to this (the Ministerial) side of the house. For myself, I regret that, owing to the blunders and inconsistencies of the Government, such a result as the hon. and gallant gentle man anticipates is not at all unlikely to be realised. I am also exceedingly sorry that the Under-Secretary for War did not act upon the suggestion offered by the right hon. baronet opposite (Sir J. Pakington), who said he re garded this discussion as entirely premature, and promised to bring forward a substantive motion on the same sub ject hereafter, if the question were for the present post poned. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Pee]), however, having evidently got off his speech by heart, could not be pre vailed upon to reserve himself for the future and more legitimate opportunity thus proffered to him by the right hon. baronet, but must launch rashly at all hazards forth on the pest ent occasion, and level his pent-up accusations right and left on every hand. And, first, he must needs fall foul of the generals of division. It is perfeetly true that Colonel Gordon alleged as an excuse for the knapsacks not being delivered sooner to the regiments that all the generals of division declined to receive them—all, at least, save the Duke of Cambridge. Aud here I must say that I could not but admire the judicious *Jae courtier-like excep tion in favour of the Royal duke thus made by Colonel Gordon. (Laughter.) But I put it to the house whether it is probable that his Royal Highness, who never saw an enemy before, would know best of all what was needful to be done, while the four older generals of greater experience were entirely and stupidly ignorant on the matter. ("Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Of course, my bare assertion is not more valuable than that of Colonel Gordon or the Under- Sect etary for War. I don't arrogate to myself a monopoly of the truth ; I only ask the house to look to what are the probabilities of the ease ; and I challenge the hon. gentle man (Mr. Peel) to adduce any proof that the four senior general officers really did refaso to receive the knapsacks. (Hear, hear.) But, after what Colonel Gordon has stated, we must, of course, assume that the Duke of Cambridge's division actually got their knapsacks. Now, it so hap pened that at the very time when Colonel Gordon was miv ing this evidence in the Crimea the Duke of Cambridge was also giving his evidence in this country. Well, does his Royal Highness corroborate the statement on this point whieti the hon. gentleman (Air. Peel) has most gratuitously and imprudently ventured to make here to-night ? And let me ask (exclaimed the gallant general with some warmth)—let me ask, what right has the hm. gentleman to indulge in these rash and inculpatory assertions ? Is it b 3cause he happens to be the Under-Secretary of State for War that he presumes in this manner to level his unpro voked accusations against the four older generals of divi sion? (Hear.) What did his Royal Highness state when examined before the Sebastopol Committee in the month of March, 1855 : " Is your Royal Highness aware at all of what was the reason of this great delay in the restoration of the knapsacks after they had been taken away ?—The reason was simply this, that, instead of each ship, after coming round to Bala leave, entering the harbour and discharging its cargo of knapsacks, and care being taken that the regiments were informed at the time that such would be the case, a sort of circular was sent round that a ship was outside or inside the harbour, and the chance was taken of getting the knapsacks out. It occurred once or twice, on sending down for them, that the ship had sailed in the meantime to Constantinople or Marseilles upon another service, and the knapsacks were gone. Is the fact within your Royal Highness's knowledge, that ships laden with those knapsacks went two or three times backwards and forwards across the Black Sea with out landing ?—I think that, that is true. Does not that imply great neglect in some quarters ?—I think it a very bad arrangement." Thus, the Royal duke, who was ready to receive the knapsacks, did nut get them any more than the four foolish old generals who refused them. Then, again, what does his _Royal Highness say further— " Would it not have been possible, after the flank march was determined upon, to have all the knapsacks collected together out of the different ships into one, and to have sent them round to Balaklava?—l have no doubt that some arrangement of the sort might have been made at the time. (Hear.) Of course at sea it is not, perhaps, a very easy mat ter to shift knapsacks from one ship to another. I appre hend the simplest course would have been to have lauded the knapsacks of each regiment at Balaklava, and then to have made the ships available At once for any other duty." If the hon. gentleman in his study of blue-hooks--a study to which I believe he is much : wldicted—(hear, '.tear, and laughter)—would only refer to General Bentiaick's evi dence he would find that gallant: officer folly corroborates his Royal Highness, and that he could not get the knap sacks, notwithstanding the wends rful alacrity c f Col. Gor don. Then what does Col. Wilso a, of the Guavas, tell us? He was asked— _ _ " You steted that the men had no change before yon came away ; had they not got their knapsacks 2—Before I came away I do not think 20 of our English soldiers had their knapsacks except the two con 'panics of the regiment which had been placed on board th e Bellerophon, under Lord Frederick Paulet, and Lord Fr ederick brought those men on shore with their knapsacks, and those, 1 believe, were the only men that had their knapsacks out of the whole brigade." And, agaiu,— " Do you know what steps 'sere, taken on the part of the officers to obtain their baggage w'aile encamped before Se bastopol ?—I know that the offic , era repeatedly sent down their servants to Balak - lava to endeavour to discover the ships iu which they had sailed t o the Crimea for the pur pose of getting their baggage. I did so myself, and on one occasion the Tanning, the ship in which I before said I sailed to the Crimea, did an-ive ' and I sent my servant down, and they told him that they had been ordered at Constantinople to disgorge all the baggage, and to put it into store there, so that I got Thoth ing." That was the excellent arrangtament which Col. Gordon made for the Guards. Ido not wish to trouble the house with a variety of evidence upon ;this subject, but perhaps hon. members are not aware why it is that the subject of the knapsack is dwelt upon. se, much. I must remind them that it was 'tattle by them edical officers that in eons sequence of the troops not havines a change of clothes their sufferings were aggravated, and know the sick and wound ed went down to Scutari with the 'ir shirts sticking to their backs, in the most deplorable coat lition, no provision at all being made for them at Bal eklava . (Hear.) So much for the willingness of the Duke of Cs teubridge to receive the knapsacks. Now, Sir, as 800 V. as I Veen' of this, I obtained a document from General P ennefaelter, who commanded one of the brigades under iey crisis, and from Colonel Armstrong (General Aden's, who commanded the other brigade, having unfortunately been killed), in which those officers said they sent down to Balaklaya whenever they heard of a ship coming into harbour with baggage, but they invariably found the knaysaek s had been sent on to Con ' stantinople or some other sdscn. The hon. gentleman the Under-Secretary quotes Gordon, without knowing whether what Co]. Gordon A ays is sound or not, and I complain that he has not ci mdidly avowed he was not' aware of the evil consequences which have resulted from the knapsacks having been wit, hheld and sent about from place to place except to that aulece where they were re quired. I admit that perhap s senne confusion was inevi table, but I do not think that Belch efforts we'e made or arrangements concluded as prudence would have dictated. I complain, also, of the readiness 'which I disceever from the evidence Col. Gordon displays tee shift the blame which might be attributed to him upon the shoulders of other persons. The five Generals of Disrisien were' all absent, one of them unhappily having p erish e d, and then Col. pd G or don says, slaash, except his Psoyal Highness, those generals caused all the difficulty by' their refusals to se cept the knapsacks. • The hon. gentleman the Under-Secre tary of War, not appreciating the discreet observations of the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington), goes into the whole question, and challenger the opinion of Parliament upon the whole question. (Hear.) At one time ho says a commission is about to be appointed, a trial its pending, and therefore it would be unfair to make any reenarks but the moment aft er h e commences a n attack upon everybody. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman says this motion is unfair, because the commissioners are somewhat assailed by this proceeding, but immediately afterwards be does not hesi tete to commence an attack upon the commissioners. Surely these commissioners are equally entitled to fair play as the officers who are said to he reflected upon by their report. (Hear, hear.) And, sir, after all, those commis• sioners were officers appointed and selected by the War Department, and now down comes the War Department and complains of them. (Hess'. hear.) It seems to be in tended to lay dowi a rule that everything may be said about any one excepts to these officers who have a con nexion with the Court. I cannot help saying that I be lieve the public imagine different justice is administered by the Government to noble lords and lion. gentlemen fa voured at Court than that awarded to humble and friend less individuals. (Hear, hear.) I confess, too, I did not like the announcement of the noble viscount (Palmerston) that this Board or Commission is to c,lose its doors occa. sior aly whenever its members may dees;de to do so. l e t us understand whether evi dence is to be beard while these doors are closed. (Hear, hear.) I have also heard it said, and aim not sure that there is no foundatie n for the state. anent, that one of the modes by which Uses° gentlemen who consider themselves inculpated intend to essape from censure is to cast all the blame upon the late Lord Raglan. Sir, Lord Raglan and the Adjutant-General can no longer defend thein‘elves, and I would advise the friends of the late Lord Raglan, of whom there must be many in this house, to be upon their guard against any attempt on the part of certain individuals to exonerate themselves at the expense of the late Commander-in-Chief. (Hear, hear.) Why is there to be any secrecy at all ? Tell ns that. A distinction has bees drawn between the Co *mission or Board and that .whick.sat'after the Convention of Cintra. Upon that occasion there was ample reason for caution and I even for secrecy— there were great strategicaLpoints to be discussed. 1 myself have been placed in a false position in took rn cc. rd ay 105 IPi 24i 114 14 iP t 6 1021 1131 5 w•