The Sun. — London, England, 1831-02-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 25. Lord VERNON prosented a peti•iou, numerously and respectably signed, from the town of Stockport, praying for some legislativipmeasures to counteract the evils of the truck system. • • Petitions were presented by Lord Gower, from the Staffordshire Potteries, praying to have representatives; by the Duke of Norfolk, from New Shoreham, for the remission of the duties on Sea-borne coal; by the Bishop of Winchester, from several places against slavery ; also a petition from St. Olave's, praying their Lordships not to pass the London Bridge Approaches Bill without attention to their interests. The Rev. Prelate also presented a si miLr petition from St. John's, Southwark. Petitions were also presented by Earl Spencer, from the merchants and bankers of London in favour of Parliamentary Reform ; by the Earl of Rosslyn, from Dumferline against slavery ; by Lord Wharncliffe, from several parishes in York, for the repeal of the assessed taxes; by Earl Dudley, from Wolverhampton, against the truck system, and from Dudley praying for Reform ; by the Bishop of Bath and Wells, against slavery; by the Earl of Carnavon, from Carnavon, complaining of ex treme distress, and praying for immediate relief ; by Earl Grey, from Titcbfield, praying for reduction of taxation, from Bristol and Berwick upon Tweed, praying for the right of election and vote by ballot, together with several petitions from different places, to the same effect ; from Devonport, in favour of Reform, and from several places against slavery ; by the Marquis of Clanricarde, from several places in Ireland against slavery ; by the Marquis of Lansdowne, from Southampton, Ayr, and several other places in favour of Reform and vote by ballot, and also from a place in Ireland against the repeal of the Union. MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. Sir C. WARRENDER and others brought up five private bills. Mr. Danvers, from the East India House, brought up several papers. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to present a petition from the inhabitants of Leeds, signed by upwards of 17,000, in doing which the Noble Lord observed that he felt greatly honoured by being entrusted with the petition, woming as it did from persons whom he should ever ho tour and revere, the people of the county of York ; w'th some parts of the prayer of the petition Le ,ould not, however, agree but the general drift of it, met with his entire concurrence. Those parts with which he did not concur he recommended strongly to the attention of their Lordships, believing them to Le highly deserving of it. CHANCERY REFORM. The LORD CHANCELLOR held in his hand one of the two Bills which he had gone into at great length on Tuesday night last, and he should ill repay the courtesy with which their Lordships had listened to him if, he were to say one word mere than was absolutely necesary. Upon the former occasion he had omitted to state, that although he had a confident opinion that the law of the adjudication of bankruptcy was not on as good a footing :as it might be placed, yet it was not at present the object of this Bill to alter the law in that respect, but !merely to transfer it to another.tribunal. His Lordship Then detailed the mode in which a commission of bank rut.tcy was now sued out, the proceedings in which were generally behind the bankrupt's back, and the most respec • table merchant in London might be declared a bankrupt if any creditor of his, to the amount of one hundred pounds, thought fit to make an ex-parte affidavit of an act of bankruptcy. To that course of proceeding it was necessary that some check should be put, and be had no doubt that when the new tribunal should be formed, the experience which they must acquire in the course of their judicial duties, would suggest some remedy which -would do away with the facilities which now existed in ;striking a docket. . Lord LYNDHURST, after complimenting the Noble and Leas ned Lord on the able speech with which he had introduced his measures, and observing that time for con aideratioat must necessarily be given before any Noble Lord could fully state his sentiments respecting those measures, wished to state in what points he at once agreed with the Noble and Learned Lord, and in what points he wished to reserve his opinion until the details of the measures should be before their Lordships. He was sure their Lordships had had too much experience of him to fear that he would occupy any considerable portion of their time. He re peated, that be did not mean to argue the question, but only to advert to tl.ose points in which he concurred with the Noble and Learned Lord, and those on which be must remain in doubt until the details were before the House. With respect to the first measure, the Bill which stood for coo,m;e•eant «bat day. he entirely agreed with the prin ciple of the measure as introduced by the Noble and Learned Lord. Of the details, of course he could not be aware ; but there would be ample time to consider them hereafter. Soon after he (Lord Lyndhurst) had the honour of holding the situation which the Noble ar.d Learned Lord now held, he had commenced several amend ments with respect to the superintendence of the Com mittee of Lunatics, which he was glad the Noble and Learned Lord bad adopted. With respect to the second provision of the Bill, he thought the Noble and Learned Lord had acted wisely and discreetly in retain ing the Commissions. It was frequently necessary that inquiries should be made in the neighbourhood of lunatics, to which inquiries those Commissions were the most competent. It sometimes happened, how ever, that cases of great difficulty occurred ; while he (Lord Lyndhurst) had the honour to hold the Great See, thsre were three or four of such cases. The Noble and Learned Lord had adverted to one of Lord Portsmouth. There bad been also the eases of Davis, Brand, &c. For the purpose of preserving the order and sobriety and de- COYUM of the proceedings in these cases, an authority higher than that of the Commissioners seemed requisite. He had, therefore, applied to the Noble Lord, the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench, to ascertain whe ther it would not be practicable that one of the Judges should act in concert with the Commission ; but difficul ties manifested themselves in the execution of such a plan, which induced him to abandon it. Undoubtedly he had thought that if a single Judge could he commissioned for that purpose, it would be very advantageous ; but after the most careful search, not a single circumstence could be found of such a measure. It had been his intention, therefore, as the Noble and Learned Lord had said, to propose that in any case in which, in the opinion of the Great Seal, a Judge ought to preside, power should be given to include him in the Commission. He was not acquainted with the details of the measure ; but he Ap proved of the principle, and recommended it to their Lord ships' adoption. Then, let us see what his Noble and Learned Friend meant to do with respect to the Court of Chancery. Although his Noble and Learned Friend was vita justified in making the long statement which he made in opening his views to their Lordships, yet the outline of his measures was short. The first point to which he would advert, under that head, related to the mode of paying the Masters in Chancery. That system had occupied his attention, and he bad endeavoured to alter it, with the assistance of the Master of the Rolls, but he was met at all points by the fees of the Masters; so that he found it impossible to effect his object by his own authority; and , he had therefore brought a Bill into this House for the purpose. That Bill was approved by their Lordships and passed this House, hut it was not so fortunate in the other House, where it was strongly opposed and dropped, But he took no merit to himself for that, for it was merely car rying into effect one of the measures recommended by the Court of that very Commission whose report bad been so much abused, and so little perused or understood, Its object was to remove a barrier which stood in the way ot . other improvements, and he was glad that his Noble and Learned Friend had taken the same course; and he hoped that the measure now supported by his Noble and Learned Friend in this Ilouse, and by his colleagues in the other House, would be attended with better success than the one to the same effect which be had proposed. Another improvement which his Noble ,and Learned Friend had in view was the transfer of the business of taxing costs from the Masters in Chancery to the Six Clerks. That was one of the improvements recommended by the Chancery Commission of 1826, and it was one which he thoroughly approved, and hoped that it would now be adopted by this and the other House; and that what he had attempted in vain to carry into ex ecution would at length he effected. There was another improvement under this branch of the subject which he cordially approved, and which he had anticipated—he meant ti,e alterations to be made in the practice of the Registrar's Office of the Court of Chancery. He bad con sidered that subject along with that able and excellent Judge the Master of the Ilona, with a view, if possible, to get rid of the long rentals in d ecrees registered in the Court of Chancery, forming an inessmbrance of paper which had become one of t he greatest nuisances of the remedy, Court. This he had it hi contem p l ation to possible, in orde r that by getting rid of thi s, well as other evils, lie might remove the odium under which tha Court of Chancery laboured. But here again ha was met by the fees of the Registrar, and of the Copying Clerks, which depended on the length of the decrees. rive them of these fees by his He had no right to deprive own authority, and be was obliged to abandon the at tempt to abate the nuisance by his own authority. He then brought a Bill for the purpose Into this House, which was passed by their Lordships, but failed in the other House. That too was one of the recommenda tions of the Chancery Commissioners of 1826, and he hoped that his Noble and Learned Ft iend would have better suc cess than he bad, and that the improvement would, at length, be carried which he had is vain endeavoured to effectuate. These were the points on which he cordially concurred with his Noble and Learned Friend. He now came to those branches of his Not and Learned Friend's general plan as to which he had his doubts, and on which he forbore to give any opinion at present. But before proceeding to the country in the discharge of his duties, he felt it due to his Noble and Learned Friend, to their Lord ships, to the public, and to himself, to state the points on which he had doubts, and the reasons for those doubts. The first of these points was the alteration of the mode of taking evidence in the Courts of Equity. His Noble and Learned Friend had put this alteration in a very capti vating point of view in his opening speech; but he a s . sawed their Lordships that the matter was not without its difficulties. When he came to preside in the Court of Chancery, with all the prejudices of a common lawyer, he thought that it would he easy to effect an improvement in this respect. But on looking at the matter m ore narrow l y , h e f oun d , or t h oug h t t h at Fhe found, great difficulties on the subject; and he, with many others who had the same prejudices, began to doubt the policy or expediency of altering the esta- I lisped mode of taking evidence in Courts of Equity. Several of the Members of the Chancery Commission of 1826 had begun their labours with precisely the same view of the matter which he then entertained, and he might par ticularize the present Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, Mr. Justice Littledale, Doctor Lushington, and Mr. Smith. They thought at first as be thought, and were desirous to substitute the common law method of taking evidence for the mode at present established in Courts of Equity. They attempted to bring over the rest of the Commissioners to their views, and there was no point more anxiously and thoroughly sifted and discussed by the Commissioners than this was, and the result was an unanimous opinion that the present mode of taking evidence in Courts of Equity ought not to be deviated from. They saw the incon venience and disadvantages attending that method of taking evidence, but they also saw, or thought they saw, that the inconveniences and disadvantages which would be the con sequence of a change of method would be still greater, and, upon the whole, they thought it better that there should be no change. He did not mean to say positively that they wire right in this view of the matter. Ile did not at pre sent argue the case. But he stated this as one of the grounds of the doubt which existed in his mind as to whether this part of his Noble and Learned Friend's arrangement could be carried into effect with advantage. He did not state it as a reason for decided opposition, but as a reason for pausing and considering the matter further before he came to a decided conclusion on the subject. When he had first applied his mind to the consideration of the point, he had found great difficulties in it. No doubt there were some apparent absurdities in the mode of taking evidence in the Court of Chancery, but he could tell their Lordships that the Judge who presided in the Court of Chancery had very seldom to decide a question upon a balance of evidence, without that evidence having been before sifted in a Court of Common Law. The cases occurred but rarely in which the Lord Chancellor had to question upen a balance of evidence ; and when the cases did occur, the practice was to direct an issue to be tried in a Court of Law before a Judge and Jury, who saw and heard the witnesses. It must, therefore, be very seldom that a mistake in point of fact could be committed in the Court of Chancery. The great advantage of viva voce testimony was, that the wit ness was seen and heard by the Judge and Jury, but all this advantage would be, in a great measure, lost, when the evidence was taken before one Judge, and the cause was to be tried by another, and yet this would he the case when witnesses would be examined on his Noble and Learned Friend's plan. Counsel and solicitors would, of course, in most cases, attend on each side to examine and cross-examine, and this would be attended with great ex pence and embarrassment to the parties. And then be would ask his Noble and Learned Friend, whether his own experience had not taught him the very defective mode in which a case was brought before a Common Law Court by the report of the Nisi , Prins Judge, although it was the best shape in which the evidence could be brought before the Court? For his own part, the report of the Judge, read on motions fur a new trial, had often ap peared to him little better than unintelligible jargon, until the case was explained by the observations of those who had been present at the trial ; and yet this would be the situation of the Court of Chancery with respect to the evi dence when taken on his Noble and Learned Friend's plan. Why did he say this ? His reason was merely to show the grounds of the doubts which he at present enter tained, whether it would not be better to leave the Court c.f Chancery to direct issues as at present, when the case depended on a balance of testimony, than to substitute a re:ular and exclusive tribunal for the trial of issues for the Court of Chancery. There was another consideration connected with this part of the subject well deserving of attention. One great object in Courts of Equity was to prevent the evidence for the plaintiff being seen by the de fendant until he hail closed his own evidence in defence; and the purpose of this obviously was to deprive the de fendant of the means of making a fraudulent or fabri cated defence. Courts of Equity were so strict in this respect, that before the Court would consent on any ground to enlarge publication, the person applying for that enlargement was compelled to swear that ,he was unacquainted with the evidence taken on the other side. Now it would be quite impossible that this advantage could be preserved when the evidence should be taken on his Noble and Learned Friend's plan, the investigation in most cases could not be concluded in a single day. There must be an adjournment, and the defendant would thus be aware of the evidence on the other side in time to enable him to set up a fabricated defence; and of this opportunity, if he was a dishonest man, which defendants, unfertunately, too often were, he would not fail to avail himself. This was an important part of his Noble and Learned Friend's plan ; but he was not, at present, Ferrer' to give it his full concurrence, and he stated the difficulties attending it merely to show why he could not accede to that part of the plan until he had seen the de tails, and had further considered the whole subject. He should be glad if, in the result, be could agree with his Noble and Learned Friend ; but if he should feel himself compelled to differ from him, he wauld state the grounds pf dissent fairly and frankly, and without any party or per eonsiderations. These questions about the Court of Chancery bad been too often mixed up with patty and personal feelings and considerations.—(Hear, hear.) But away with such feelings and considerations in treating of these subjects, which were in reality, no party matters. Such questions ought to be treated with the utmost frank• ness and candoor, for all of them could only have one object in view—and that was tp put the Court upon the best fent ing as a tribunal for the administration of justice. Having said this much on the subject of the mode of taking evidence, he would, with their Lordships' permission, say a few words on another important branch of his Noble and Learned Friend's plan, and that was the alteration in the machi nery of the Bankruptcy Tribunal, which it was hoped would hasee a bearing backward on the business in Chan cery, and diminish the labour of the Judge who presided there. That branch of the subject might be divided into two parts. The administration in bankruptcy was en trusted in Lorninn, and within forty miles round it, to seventy Commistionere, formed into fourteen lists ; and the administration in bankruptcy in the country was en trusted to Commissioners occasionally appointed for the purpose. The Noble and Learned Lord (Eldon; who had been his predeceeeor on the Woolsack, had given much the same character of the country Commissioners as his Noble and Learned Friend now on the Woolsack had given of the Coneenieeioners generally ; and therefie-e it hed been Lord Eldon's obliact to transfer commissions of bankruptcy as much as possible from the emantry to the London Corn,. missi,oners. He (Lord Lyndhurst) was satisfied that al most all the abuses that prevailed in the administration of this branch of law were confined to the country Commie aions. This was a conviction to which all his experience and observation in the Court of Chancery had hd him ; and he had, in the rouse of the last Session, stated the re medy which, in his opinion, ought to be applied—and that wag, to follow up the plan recommended by Lord Rosslyn, by establishing permanent Commissions in the great towns in the country, in the same manner as in the metropolis. His Noble and Learned Friend, as he understood him, meant to retain these Commissions, and to appoint lists for places beyond forty miles from London ; and he was glad that his Noble and Learned Friend had so far concurred with him, and he thought that his Noble and Learned Friend had therein acted wisely and prudently. A great deal had been said out of doors about the London Commissioners, who had been made the subject of much abuse. That some young and rather inexperienced men were appointed, amp! that some men retained these appoint ments after being far advanced in age, was certainly true. He knew and admitted it ; but at the same time lie must say that the Commissioners generally, and as a 'Jody, were as able men and as good lawyers as any in the profession ; and were, to say the least, in that respect fully on a foot ing with those who insulted and reviled them. He al luded to a petition presented a short time ago to this House relative to the Commissioners, in which the grossest,cearges were made lie was convinced, the most unfounded against them. He would • say nothing las to the meeting at which that petition was agreed to, because, accorJing to the newspaper reports, he himself hail been abused at that meeting. The duties of the Commissioner, might he divided into two parts—the administrative or ministerial, and the judicial. As to the Ministerial duties, there could not be a het ter tribunal for the performance of that part of the duties than that of the London Commissioners— at least that was his opinion. It was a tribune, also, which 'readily adapted itself to any quantity of busi ness. Sometimes, as was well known, there was a great deal of business in bankruptcy, and at other time! very litt'e ; but this tribunal adapted itself easily to all circum. stances, be the business more or less. Then as to the judicial part of the duties, he was satisfied that, on the whole, these had been well done—done with very great diligence, ability, and intelligence. In support of this he might refer to a very strong fact—the smallness of the number of appeals from the decisions of the London Com missioners. The appeals were very few in proportion to the business done; in these few appeals there were very few reversals. He had inquired into the proceedings of the third list during the three years and a half in which lie held the Great Seal, and in all that time, out of 160 Commissions there was only one appeal, and even that ap peal was dismissed wish casts. It was merely by accident that lie took this third list as the subject of inquiry, and not from any idea the Commissioners composing it were superior to those in the other lists. This was a strong fact to show that the judicial duties were well performed. He knew the answer that had been given to this at the meeting to which he alluded. It was said that parties were deterred by the expense of appeals. He had never found, however, that in a suit in Chancery the parties were much deterred from litigation by considerations of the expense, and, in point of Let, they were not deterred for that reason, in this instance, since there were abundance of appeals from the judgments of the country Commissioners. Still he did not mean positively to say that the business might not be as well or better done in another way, and by an other tribunal. He merely stated these things as a reason for reserving his opinion as to that part of his Noble and Learned Friend's plan, till he had an opportunity of seeing the details, and of further considering the whole subject. He ha I now concluded the observations which he had to make on the propositions which had been submitted to their Lordships by his Noble and Learned Friend. As to what might be called the financial part of the arrange• ment, lie was not yet sufficiently acquainted with it to be competent to make any observations upon it, and he be lieved that it would be necessary for their Lordships to call for several documents on that subject, before they could thoroughly understand it. There was one particu lar, however, on which he was desirous to make an ob servation. His Noble and Learned Friend had stated, that the diminution which these arrangemr nts would make in the income of the Lord Chancellor was 7,000/. a year. By his calculation the diminution was only 2,5001. The whole of the Lord Chancellor's emoluments amounted to between 14 and 15,0001. a year—arising partly from fees in Chancery arad in this House, and partly from salary. Of this sum; 2,5001. was paid to the Vice-Chancellor, whose office was at first experimental, and Lord Eldon having given up 2,5001. of his income as Chancellor, to assist in making up the proper allowance to be made for this experimental Judge, the whole extent of the loss to the Lord Chancellor by the arrangement Ise calculated at 5,000/., but then he retained, as he conceived, fees to half the amount from the commissions, which reduced the loss to 2,5001. Of course, this observation was founded on the supposition that his Noble and Leal ned Friend meant to retain the commissions, and only meant to entrust them to a new tribunal. Now he had this observation to make, that as long as it was thought proper to place the Lord Chancellor at the head of the peerage, his income ought not to be less than 14,0001. or 15,0001. a year, more particularly considering the preer riousness of the office; and, in his opinion, the 2,300/. which was paid to the Vice-Chancellor ought to be re sumed, and that sum ought to be made up to him out of the suitors' csta!es, which could very well afford it. He was decidedly of opinion, that by this and other means, the emoluments of the Lord Chancellor might be made up to the full sum of 15,0001. a year. Then as to the in ' creasing of the Lord Chancellor's retiring salary to 6000/. it was to be considered that there might be three or four retired Chancellors in existence, and then he was afraid that the other House would hardly agree to allow the 6,000/. to so many retired Chancellors, although means might be found to make up that sum by appointing retired Chancellors to some other proper situations—such as hear/ of the Privy Council—and then a further allowance might be made in addition to the existing retired salary. At present the retired salary ceased on the Ex-Chancellor's accepting another appointment. There might be some difficulty in forming a proper arrangement in this respect, but he did not think that it was impossible. He begged pardon for detaining their Lordships so long. He was glad that so much was likely to be done of that which he had attempted to do, but had failed, as he was anxious that there should be an end of the odium which had been attached to the constitution of the Court of Chancery. There were two points only as to which he felt conside rable doubt—the change as to the Commissioners of Bank rupts, and in the mode of taking evidence in the Courts of Equity; the latter certainly was a most important change, and one which deserved the gravest conside!atim!. Ile knew that the Master of the Rolls did not agree in opi nion on that head with his Nob'e and Learned Friend, but he hoped that at last they would be able to come to a just conclusion on the subject, and the change, if change should be made, would be effected in such a way, that, in case it should prove a failure, they might easily retrace their steps. With this precaution it might, perhaps, be worth while to try the effect of a new system. He had only been anxious to throw out these few suggestions before lie left town on his official duties, and he thanked their Lordship for the attention with which they had heard him. The LORD CHANCELLOR—Nothing could be more satisfactory to him than the observations and explanations of his Noble and Learned Friend, and the very candid manner in which he had stated his approbation of those puts of the general plan in which he concurred, and the equady fair and candid manner in which he had stated and explained his doubts as to other parts which he could not at present fully approve, but which he by no means pledged himself to oppose. It was satisfactory to hear his views so candidly and fairly staled by a man of his learning and ex perience, and he was glad that he had mentioned the diffi culties that pressed on his mind, as lit would be his (the Lord Chancellor's) duty to :endeavour to remove difficul ties, or so to vary and modify his measure, as 'to keep clear of them. He would be very glad if he could obtain the approbation of his Noble and Learned Friend to his general plan, and any suggestions from him would be listened to with the most earnest and respectful attention. It might be thought sufficient to have said this much re specting his Noble and Learned Friend's observations and explanations, since he had not pledged himself to oppose even those parts of the plan as to which he at present felt doubts; but he was anxious to say a few words respecting the grouads and reasons of his Noble and Learned Friend's doubts, as otherwise an injurious impression might go abroad as to the propriety and advantage of some of the most important parts of the measure. It was true, as his Noble and Learned Frit n I had observed, that the subject ought to be treated openly, frankly, and candidly, and without personal or party feelings, and both of them had only one common object; and, with that impression on his mind, he would shortly advert to one or two of the diffi culties which pressed un his Noble and Learned Friend's Ile first of these three Bills—that which re lated to lunatics, was more his Noble and Learned Friend's measure than his, especially the second branch of it. As to the mode of paying the Masters, he really was not aware tl:at this bad been part of the Bill which had gone down last Session to the other Hones, and had dropped owing to the demise of the Crown, and which certainly he had opposed and retarded.—(Lord Lyndhurst —" It was a separate Bill.")—Why, then, if it was, he had certainly not opposed that Bill ; fur he was not aware of its existence. What he had opposeJ, and that ve hemently—but still most conscientiously—,was that Bill by which it was proposed to appoint an additional and new Judge in Equity. He was not aware of the Bill for altering the mode of paying the Masters, which coincided with the viaw which he himself entertained en that sub ject, and he had no doubt but that his Noble and Learned Friend would concur in a measure which it appeared he had himself anticipated. As to the report of the Chancery Commissioners of 1626, he quite agreed with his Nuble and Learned Friend, that few per, sons had perused it with much attention, and perhaps that might be said of himself ; for he really did not know that the, Commissioners had recommended the payment of the Masters solely by salaries. But still the tact was that he had perused the whole of it from beginning to end with much attention, and what he found there was not a reconr mendation to pay the Masters by salaries only, hut a re commendation to pay them partly by fees and partly by salaries, the very worst of all possible ways, for it united the disadvantages of both modes of payment. If the Master should be indolent, and the salary was 2,0001. or 2,500/., then he might say, " I am sure of this, and can live very easily on my salary, and need not trouble myself much with bussiness." If he was avaricious the salary would ba no check on his disl.osition to create delay anti expense in the suits, in order to multiply his fees. .There would ln no check on avarice but indolence, so that this mixed mode of payment was the very worst plan that could be devised. His plan was to pay the principal officers by salaries only, and the inferior officers by fees—not upon the intermediate steps of procedure, but on the causes concluded—so as to obviate all temptation to create delay and expellee, in order to multiply the fees. Then, as to the mode of taking evidence, neither the party nor the Judge, as the system at present existed, saw the witnesses. It might, perhaps, be difficult to substitute another mode ; but he was far from thinking it impossible; and he certainly did think that it would be a great im provement to have the issues tried in the Master's Office, instead of sending them to a Court of Common Law— leaving it to the Lord Chancellor to decide on questions of law, and on new trials, after the facts had been ascer taiued by trial in the Master's Office. As to the diffi culties of this mode of taking evidence, they had the ex perience of the proceedings of the name kind in Scotland. The Scotch, about seven or eight hundred years ago, had been in the civil law-stage, being that in which the Court of Chancery and Doctors' Commons now are. Then they came to the second stage, in which examinations were taken by Commissioners, but in the presence of the parties and their Counsel and agents, if they chose to attend and question the witnesses, and of late the Scotch had got beyond that, and bad reached the third stage, in which the issues of fact were tried before a Judge and Jury. It was nut surprising that Dr. Lushington should have had a partiality to the first stage, which was that of his own Court, and these Doctors, as well known, were very much attached to their own ways. He, according to his plan of pro ceeding gradually, bad taken the first step, from the first stage to the second, in the hope that this would pave the way for a safe advance to the third stage. The Chancery Commissioners mentioned by his Noble and Learned Friend might have concurred, for any thing he knew, in the expe dieney of retaining the existing mode of taking evidence but if so, some of them must have altered their opinions since 1826. Before he had submitted his plan to their Lordships, be had laid it before many gentlemen of the pro fession, some of them having been themselves Commis. sioners in 1826, and left them to discuss it among them selves, without being himself present. He had refrained from being present. as the freedom of urging and discussing objections might otherwise have been restrained by deli cacy, and tkey had approved of his plan; so that if the Chancery Commissioners of 1826 were unanimous in ap proving the continuance of the present system of taking evidence, they had since taken a much sounder view of the subject. As to the Commissioners of Bankrupts, it was notorious that in the country the attorneys made jobs of them, and yet it was equally notorious, that in many places some of the greatest men, and the ablest lawyers—Mr. Serjeant Cross, Sir W. D. Evans, afterwards Recorder of Bombay, and some others whom he might mention, had acted in these Commissions. It was but fitting that a word should be put in for the country Commissions, when they had been so severely attacked. But his general ob jections did not apply to the Commissioners, either in town or country, but to the system. He differed from his Noble and Learned Friend as to Lord Eldon's observations on the subject, and could not suppose that these observa tions were confined solely to the country Commissions. He admitted that many of the London Commissioners were able - men and excellent lawyers ; but, at the same time, it was perfectly well-known that some of them fell into the grossest blnnders. For instance, it appeared in actions at law, that those composing one of the lists had found a man a bankrupt on an act of bankruptcy supposed to have been committed by the son, and an act, which after all, was not an act of bankruptcy. The Commission was, of course, superseded, and the aggrieved party got some damages against them. But in these cases the proof was often difficult ; and in the case mentioned, although it was proved, the unfortunate sufferer got only trifling damages for what to him was perhaps total ruin ; and this blunder was committed by the celebrated 14th list. The great objections, however, to these Commissions were their numbers—their sitting altogether—their practising beaare each other, and their being constantly called off from the exercise of their duties as Judges, by the calls which were made on them in the course of their practice as professional men ; for it should be understood that the public did not purchase the whole, but merely a small part of their time by the sum paid to them as Com missioners. Against these, and not the men, were his objections directed, for lie repeated what he said on the former evening, that it was impossible for any sets of Commissioners under such circumstances to give satisfac tion. Passing to the other part of his Noble Friend's observations, he must say that he thought the plan of taking viva voce evidence, instead of interrogatories, would tend much to get rid of all that chicanery which had been long in the Court of Chancery a subject of just complaint and animadversion. With respect to the country Commissions, he must say he thought the plan proposed would be a great improvement, and that the suitors in bankruptcy would be much be nefitted by the appeal, which would at once lie from the assignee in the country to one of the Judges of the new Bankruptcy Court in town. It would also much relieve the Court of Chancery itself, by freeing it from a troublesome and tedious class of business. His Noble Friend had adverted to the probable loss which the holder of the Great Seal would experience by these re ductions and alterations, and be had denied that it would amount to more than 2,500/. a-year, while he (Lord Brougham) estimated it at 7,000/. Unquestionably he had not b en in office long enough to know much of its receipts, and if the Civil List Bill did not pass, it was not likely he would get anything at all. His Noble Friend, too, who was probably the Chancellor in reversion, while he was the Chancellor in possession, might form a some what different estimate of these things; but this he would say, that it never could be intended, nor would Parlia ment, he was sure, allow it to be, that the Lord Chan cellor of England should receive a smaller salary titan a Puisn e Judge. In conclusion, the Noble and Learned Lord paid a high compliment to his Noble and Learned Predecessor (Lord Lyndhurst), to whom he was indebted for the suggestion of many valuable alterations, and for the maturing of others, particularly the ground-work of the valuable improvements in the administration of the im portant branch of lunacy. His Lordship also, in conclu sion, complim• nted the Lunacy Commissioners, to whose exertions the country was indebted for many valuable al terations in the management of asylums. The Bill was then read a second time. COMMISSIONS OF LUNACY. Lord ELLENBOROUGH complained of the haste with which this Bill was passed through the House. It was pre sented on Tuesday, read a second'time on Wednesday, and stood for commitment on Friday—a course very unusual. The LORD CHANCELLOR took blame to himself for this, as it was not intended to hurry the Bill through the House, but merely to allow his Noble Friend (Lord Lyndluirst), whose Bill it really was, to express his opi nion on it before he went the Circuit. It was for this purpose, and on the understanding that his Noble Friend's leisure would be consulted, that he had exceeded the usual forms of the House. Their Lordships would, however, excuse it on account of his freshness in the knowledge of their forms; and he moved that the commitment be post poned till Monday. Adjourned at Half-psst Seven till Monday. HO USE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 25. The gallery was not opened this evening until Five o'clock, on a,count of there being a ballot for three Elec tion Committees, viz. those of Clare, Galway, and Dum barton. The House was very full of Members. Several private Bills were forwarded a stage, and a number of petitions on various subjects presented. Sir J. GRAHAM then rose to move the vote for the Navy Estimates, and after baying cloned the indulgence of the House on account of his inexperience in bringing for ward such details, as it would be his duty on the present occasion to submit, and having stated, that although his lion. Friend, the Member for Middlesex, had recovvred his voice, he regretti d that he (Sir James Graham) had lost his; he went on to say, that it would not be neces sary for him to trouble the House at any great length, as he would at once proceed to the subjects to which it would b e his duty and his desire to call the attention of the House. He had been induced to make some changes w hi c h he feared might not meet the satisfaction of some Hon. Members opposite, but he could assure them that he had not willingly introduced any changes; and that suc h as he bad, were made after the best review he could take of the subject. Last sessi o n the Treasurer of the N av y introduced a Bill, which afterwards passed into an Act , f oe regulating the payments in his office; and it pro vided that the payments on account of the Victu Ming Board should he distinct from those on account of the Navy Board, and thus it became necessary that there should be separate charges in the estimates. At first this a ppeared to him (Sir J. Graham) a matter of minor im portance; but when he came to investigate the accounts and paper• submitted to him in his own office, be was led to believe that it was a wise and salutary measure, as it prevent,d much inconvenience from the intermingling of accounts, i:nil militated against the practice of throwing in the surplus of one department into the deficiency of another. He disapproved most highly of this prac iunf i t t, lit i e t ri w n a g s n o t t o ne s c o t m 'ss e ary " r; h el e y in culpate his pred ecessors ; f or h e did not say that the practice of whi c h h e comp l a i ne d b a d n ot formerly pre o,oud reprehen siblet c details b veiled. But although it was sanctioned by long usage, he • 'considered, that inasmuch as it was at "'pee inconvenient, inexpedient, and unconstitutional, they should not hesitate to apply a remedy. To explain the nature and origin of this practice, he was compelled to go back to a period comparatively remote; one of the first acts that succeeded the revolution by which our rights and liberties were so happily secured was, the Appropriation Act, which was introduced by no less a person than Lord Settlers. By this Act the Commons positively obtained for themselves, not alone the right of fixing the quantum of supply for the public service, but likewise, a recognition of their right to distribute it under various heads of tie service. But Hated! says, the navy was an exception to the general rule ; and it appeared, that from 1795, the Naval Estimates dif. fered from the other supplies. Hatsell farther observes, that there is always great difficulty in forming the Naval Estimates, from the very nature of the service, which was exposed to more casualties than any other. There was' the difficulty in obtaining information respecting ships on foreign stations ; the quantum of repair needed by such ress •la, and the many unforeseen circumstances against which there could be no provision, which were continually liable to arise, and thus create an expence that had not been anticipated. The sum for the service of the navy had been voted under three heads; but the gross sum was al ways applied to the service generally. Within a few years afterwards, however (he believed in 1798), when Lord Spencer was First Lord of the Admiralty, Parlia ment extended the general principle of the Appropria tion Act to the naval service; and since then, the Ap propriation Act had regularly distributed the gross sum under the several beads, according to the votes of the House ; and thus was there no longer any difference be tween the supply for the Navy anti that for the other branches of the public service. But although Parliament had declared, legislatively, that there should be no diffe rence, yet practically this had been disregarded, and the gross sum was, as before, applied to the service generally. But he, after carefully viewing the subject, considered that the time was arrived to give full effect to the change tehich took place in 1798: and that the authority of Par liament should be enforced, in the regulation of the Sup plies for the Naval Service, in the same manner as it was in the other services. Holding strongly this opinion, it was his duty to bring under the attention of that House a few facts, to show the great and growing departure from the rule laid down in 1798, which now prevailed. He had no great abuse to lay before them, nor any thing to state which might be, perhaps, properly thrown forth as an in culpation of his immedloe predecessors; yet the matter was well worthy the attention of the House; and though it might not be necessary to cast a retrospective glance, of a nature very strict and searching, upon this matter, yet he had no doubt it would be deemed advisab!e to turn upon it a retrospective glance of the strictest scrutiny. He. had to inform the House that works of great extent in the department of the naval service had been began, completed, and paid for, without the knowledge or sanc tion of Parliament, or without the subject once being brought under the notice of the House of Commons. These works were paid far out of the surplus upon other votes, which were greater than was needed for the purposes to which it was intended they should be applied. There was a work at Weevel, near Portsmouth, commenced and com pleted, and paid for by the Victualling Board, without any vote front Parliament. Indeed the subject was never mentioned in the House but once, and that incidentally, when last year or the year before his Learned Friend, the Member for Portsmouth, seeing great works going on in his neighbourhood, asked a question respecting them, in his place, and he was informed, in reply, that the proceeds arising from the sale of some public buildings in Portsmouth would defray the expence. The House would fe•l surprised when he told them that expense, and when they remembered that it was sanctioned by no vote of theirs : The expellee was 155,5341. There was another work of the Victualling Board that was of greater extent and more expensive. He alluded to the works at Carnal (we believe). This case differed from the others, because it was brought under the estimates of 1826. But the vote then for the works was only 4,0001., while, since 1825, 229,4411. had been expended.— (Hear.) This he considered as excessive, the works hav ing been originally contemplated when we were at war, and had one hundred sail of the line at sea. Another work, begun, carried on, and finished, without the sanc tion or knowledge of the House of Commons, was one in the Isle of Ascension—in a foreign colony—and although it was of no great amount, yet, as involving the same vi cious principle, he considered it worthy of attention. The expence was under 10,000/., and it was, as in other cases, provided for by balances unaccounted for in Parliament. Hitherto he had spoken only of the Victualling Board, but the practice was not peculiar to this Board. It ex tended to the Navy Board. For the works going on up to that year there had been voted 148,465/. Now the House would hardly be prepared to hear, that for these works there was paid 325,9081. The works of which he spoke were the Basin and Wall at Woolwich.— Neither was it peculiar to the Victualling Board to com mence, complete, and pay for works without the consent and knowledge of Parliament. Since the year 1829, 7,9081. had been expended at Leith, not one shilling of which was voted by Parliament. The bargain was made with the Corporation of Leith by Act of Parliament. It was an improvident bargain on the part of the Corpora. tion of Leith, but still he had felt it hi, duty en behalf of the inhabitants to press for its completion. He was not prepared, however, to agree to the propriety of money being spent without the consent and vote of Parliament. Another fact which he had to lay before the House was that money hail been expended fix ship-building at Bombay, although no sum bad been charged in the Esti mates under this head by the late Governments A mum of upwards of 50,0001. was required for a seventy-four, which was lately built at Bombay, of which 26,2401. had been paid by th, late Government, and yet no credit was taken for it in the accounts of last year. Another fact of yet greater importance was, that since 1820, there never has been less than 1,500 men (and in one year there were 3,000) annually paid for more than Parliament had asked. Since the year 1830, the sum actually p tid for wages exceeded the sum voted by 1,241,000/. From what had the deficiency in the payment of wages been made good ? This question opened the view he took of the subject, and which constituted its real danger. To pay this increased number of men, a charge was made under the head of timber and materials for the supply of our arsenals. The sum voted during the last four years for this-supply was 3,705,0001. The sum actually ex pended was 2,675,0001., leaving in four years a balance, applicable and applied to other purposes, of 1,030,0001. In like manner under the head of Army Provisions for the last four years, 2,700,0001. had been voted, while only 1,895,0001, was expended, leaving on the whole a balance of 805,0001. ; and leaving a constant an nual surplus of 80,000/. Here he would take the op portunity of showing, from a report addressed to the Lords of the Admiralty Board, opinions entertained by that body respecting the appropriation of the Parliamentary vote. This is the form in which they lay down the principle on which the money should be distributed, said the Hon. Member, and then proceeded to read an extract from the Report of the Commissioners of the Victualling Board, which declared that the way in which they considered the money should be applied was not simply as it had been granted, but that the defic'ency incurred under one head should be made good by the sur plus which had accrued under another, and that the gross sum voted should he applied to the service of the Navy ; the whole expenditure being defrayed out of the whole vote and not under different heads, but blended together and with all the money for the service. TAFonie the views held by these Commissioners ; and a1t4 % .611 the practices into which they had led were not corrupt, yet there was no reason why they might not become so—the salaries of the public officers being part of the votes of the year, and a possibility existing of making a saving on one side ac count for a deficiency on the other. Thus, from what he on i m th s o u h t d t the en p h e a n il d s e t , a , it w a e p e p v e il are a d nd tha c t ra l m ar e g n e s w u know ledge and sanction of Parliament, and that these ex pences were provided for by the surplus, arising on votes, which greatly exceeded the necessity under which it was presumed they were asked. He was now about to state something, in which, no doubt, his Honourable Friend the Member for Middlesex " would fully agree with him. They had often together fought the estimates when announced for the current year, but they bad omitted one thing, of the necessity of which their long sitting in Opposition ought to have convinced them they had omitted--to insist on the means of knowing what was the expenditure. He knew no mode of carrying such an object into effcct except that of getting a balance sheet (Hear, hear.) He had titnight it not inconsistent with his duty —on the contrary, it seemed to him a part of the proper performance of his duty—to prepare the means by which the House might al rive at the knowledge of the ex penditure. He hail, therefore, prepared a balance-sheet whi c h lie should now lay b e fore the House with respect to both the heads of the Navy Board. He had separated en tirely the Victualling from the Navy Branch, and his Right Hon. Friend had appointed a separate cashier for the victualling expenditure. The charges of the two branches had been most carefully separated, in order that the ac counts of each might be easily examined. He had, there fore, an extra estimate to offer to the House, because of the separation which be bad effected among the heads of charges that had formerly been put together. These heads consisted of army provisions, of transports, of provisioe, fur the outward passage of convicts, and of the means h t their conveyance. During the last four yea re, sums I! been voted for timber and materials which bad been a t` plied to other purposes. He had discovered the wa nt these materials, and he hail therefore thought it of Par mount importance that the arsenals of the dock-yan, should be replenished with materials, and that steamer; gines should be purchased for the purpose of prelim' °!, steam-boats of war.—(Hear.) With regard to the no; her of men, although there was an apparent incr ease er' L extent of 3,000, the House would be deceive d If chef, could, in reality, take place under the vote he prof° ess imagined that any augmentation of force to that for on the Ist of January, although the vote last year w o e; for 20,000 seamen and 9,000 marines, he yet found , 7 00 his accession to his present office, that there were 21, for seamen, and 9,300 marines-500 of these being sup er meraries. The number was now less, and he asked the larger number of 22,000 seamen, and 10,000 great tines for the express purpose of not keeping ag number of men than Parliament by its express vote 04 authorised , He would keep a large margin in his aces It was not the intention of the Government to keeps"" t he men afloat, hut he asked for the means of keeping u r f g e e, force which he found in existence, on acceding ra ° eo t without violating that principle which the Governinars ought always to observe, but which had of late. Governs been set aside.—(Hear, hear.)---The increased est i ff,,t as it stood last year, was 5,595,0001.—he now asked of 5,852,0001., which gave an apparent increase 256,0001. He could explain that in the following the The estimate for last year was for 29,000 Ina' telly' number really employed was greater. He non' I—ae. asked for 32,000—(Hear, hear)—and that g ave an in parent increase in the estimate of 101,000/. T he w s, creased sum for building materials, and for s team-eV - 0 a ex9eted; was 130,0001. ; for works in the yard, 9 4,000/. %ce ll o quire(' this year. The whole o f th e e xpenditure P r present year was thus frankly av o w e d ; whereas, d °l o , the last year, several of the items of expense werll a l e t ouaiy suppressed.—(Hear, hear.) So also, with rdl i is to the money expended at Bombay, where a considers o f sum bad been expended without a sking the permis!' °! " t he Parliament. A sum of m one y w as s till r e quired f or purpose of finishing the work there begun, and the t hat vernment now asked for that money to be devoted to is o f especial purpose. Yet, notwithstanding all the Libr e ite expense were thus avowed, the estimate would be folio s ,. be 114,456/. less for the p resen t th an f or the last Y e w s' He would now state the manner in which this saving he effected. He candidly avowed that h e did not think ttbe a moment at which he could ask for a dimintitioo of rri force of the country.—(Hear, hear.) On the eon tr t s let he thought it his duty to state that that force ol' rs maintained on the same footing as during the last be and that the sum on account of the dock-yard 0 0 ' • greater. Ile had, however, made the following orals ment, by which considerable sums would be saved t e . country. He had reduced the offices of ten Corona t; ers of the Navy, at salaries of from 1,0001. t01,500 0 ,,1 S two Commissioners of the Victu a lli ng B oar d at 1, 00 );e1 year ; one draughtsman of the Navy Board, at 13 „0, of 350/. ; and two clerks, at from 300/. t o 500/. . The Treasurer of the Navy had no salary. It v' F i d el posed to abolish the Paymaster of the Marines, 5 . , 0 re • transfer his duties to sever a l o th er offi cer s. He 1 1 °'` a t duce(' fifty-six officers in the dock-yards, elorg`..A - bs 22,3051. a year. But fr o m th a t savi ng th ere ought ,e deducted 7,5301. for s up e r annua ti on , w hi c h, however' tied left a clear saving of 16,624/. a year.—(Hear.)—'H e also reduced 18 other taco, held by persons who t • not entitled to pensions, to the amount of 3,05 04 ref annum. The whole of the offices, therefore, that jo t been reduced amounted to 27,2351.—(Hear.) --it o , a e j o i for him now to point out to th e H ouse , as i t had bee ° painful duty to do so on a former occasion, that imP r° o ite go e r, certain bargain with th e C omm i ssar i at ; b u t h e sva';'esto certain that, without as ki ng th e au tho r ity o f that 0° ,,, -- t • he ought not to dis m i ss f rom th e pu bli c serv i ce any e e sons entitled under that bargain to superannuat o ",ett their dismissal, without extending to them the full be e t he of that bargain—(Hear)—and, therefore, whereve r he t superannuations had been due, he had given them; to e where he thought that an office was s u p er fluous 11 , d ,hed necessary, regardless of s u p erannuat i ons , h e h a d ahu'„ a it. In the other cas es , h owever , an u s e l ess office " c gs needless incumbrance, while a superannuation was charge, and time was in favour of the public.—(if e ' r jech He had also carried into effect another alteration , had been con t em pl a t e d by hi s pre d ecessor . There s( ‘ - eag large number of public servants, who, notwithstlr the bargain to which he had alluded, received safari a pe s stead of daily wages. He had put 114 of these P e 00 upon daily wages, and the benefit of the super he lot would revert to them on th e i r re ti remen t. The ' l 7 l O l • Hon. Baronet then moved a resolution, , s Th a t the ' t he of 1,081,6001. should be greeted to his Majesty fe r pit wages of 32,000 m en , f or 13 l unar mont h s , f r om th e January, 1831, at the rate of 21. 12s. p e r man." f e adf Sir G. CLERK tho ug ht hi mse lf ca ll e d upo n to u e , e e e the late Ministry, and beli e v e d th a t h e s h o uld h°'`fer• very difficult ta , ls in doing so, since the Right ga rl 'ooo menet himself had quoted the authority of Mr. H et° 0 0 the subject. To the authority of that Learned Persono'or one was more willing than himself to bow with de e . o r mission; and in the present instance he found rha"teel, thority was in his favour; for Mr. Hatstll expressly of the that in the expenditure upon the Navy, on accoun t d ot different circumstances attending both, the House dy he require so much strictness as in those of the army min g* was not mistaken, the late Mr. Fox, when 1 ,0 sta te' situation at the Navy Board, h a d ma d e , the sam e arse merit. Tee attempt which th e Ri g ht H o n. Baro net sad now about to ma k e , h a d b een ma d e i n Arnerr °4 , es es abandoned as impracticable. The American C o t. n :ol' was, however, even more j e al ous w ith res p e ct to r" - , of ministration of the public mone y th an was the 11 ° 06 h ieh Commons, and yet they had abandoned the s cheme g ee the Right Hon. Baronet w as now a b ou t t o try`„"j e all peered from the repo r t o f the Secretary to the ilare a ck Navy, made to Congress l as t year , th at suc h was t' e ft iglir By the way, he should wish to know from rh e , 09 0 Hon. Baronet, how lie found out that the law ' 9 le en' . regulated the Navy Esti m at es . Th a t A c t caro m l o ch acted regulations with r, spect to the Bank of El had and their transactions with the Government; bu t ; be t nething to do with the Navy. There was, ind ee 'NOY not at that time, a change in the mode of voting th e a te► Estimates. The v o t e h a d b een t a k en i n o ne gru° 4 ," QQ but it was divided i n t o th ree h ea d s i n th e year Oro.° to last year a general estimate had been given, bu t important change took place in the mode of voting r"" tio ler plies; but it was not the intention of Parliament t e wbet t the change which the Right Hon. Baronet supposed• tidal it was proposed in that year to vote the ordinary e°.eed for the Navy, of three or four millions, it was ob „ i ii rs ts -"! that there ought to b e . separate votes for each! er t th e division of expenditre. Any person wh had t o lke a ° So* estimates would obse u rve the change that locked iFLce. estimates would obsemve the change that ha-I taket' 0 1' j slor He repeated th a t th e Ri g ht H on , B arone t would 6 A fne; change . he now meditated quite impracticable ; rh e co or' t mans had done so, and the American auditor of ' ‘ , a c had said that they must take enough to cover al l — „ e tre e '" geodes. The Right Hen. Baronet had called rh e leiry' to which he had alluded a growing abuse. g e t `t Clerk) denied that it was so. There was no eor r l ie o( pose served by it. The persons who made o ut t o o ° mates always gave them according to their bustthe th e , !her information. He was, how eve r, an xi o us to se e Lance sheet promised by the Right Hon. Baro fle „;. books that exi s t e d i n th e N av y offices had not J e eel/ object to slow th e p rec i se expen di ture of th e w - voted. Tho se b oo k s h a d b een constructe d with of 'if object of ch ec ki ng th e rece ipt s an d di s b u rseineu tt 'd 11 0 4, Treasurer of the Navy. A change, however, bar nacle taken place in the books. Th a t c h a nge u'us c0 00°; 0 1 Mr. Thomson, who bad pr o p ose d ne w books of 9 0 0 d of which he had no doubt the balance sheet no"l to od e 6 , by the Right Hon. Baronet was the result. l t, ' 3 ' keeping the accounts was tried for the first tio:e 1 r iol' ' 0 as an experiment. There was a gr e at doubt 0 ' b e experiment would succeed, but a ft e r various.,ti ,_ nevi,.., • provemeets having be e n gra d ua lly i n troduc d S °P a e believed the system had nearly arrived at perfectiothe olo.A time ago there was a C omm itt ee o f I nq uiry into oil of keeping the public a ccoun t s , an d th e s ystern 00w 0 eorl by the Right Honourable Baronet was then w itrr'' • C° wt. ‘ p s r 'h ed ie e h c predecessors and it could n - tbe expected, that when such P tiCil was . in existence, 'the Victualling Board wo rild . cip les their decision. These were the general Pr' ° l3o rou e . v e defended e d his se present cond u c t o o ffi f t c h e e . Right ie o e so flr g ot t i h e , - some explanations on a few of the items- vr tant, at these r e l a t e d t o th e wor k s at W seve l, near pa rol e d The victualling es tabli s h ment was ca rried °" ,equ eoc d t o Gosport, and partly at Portsmouth, and in ee,T O foe° n ge that circumstance much inconvenience $4'5 501 '100 c_ A b alt- to arise. The Lord High Admiral (for to h im e e ve': t he was owing) observed the inconveniem a, 1 . 1 " r o ts at ee remedy it by uniting the victualling establishln.le expels, place which lie had mentioned. Consider`` t wo ° l og i was of cours e i ncurre d i n t h e rem oval of the o r ' l ot blishments to one point, but the estimate nO vi ees led tg la table by the Right Hon. Baronet certainly ffiee. o it had been when he (Sir G. Clerk) was bes t " or° 1827 (under Mr. Canning's Administration be no re , 0 • that Area l a Treasury Order was made, affecting he the tae- ne se should be taken on that account than had "C O l the late years. Directions were also given t" ~'WOm