The Sun. — London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

spirit of litigation, and it was obirious that an erscourage-' meet of this kind must operate -as a sort of bounty upon litigation. He was astonished to hear how lightly Ilon ourable Gentlemen on the opposition side of the House had spoken of the interference of the Catholic Associa tion with the administraton of justice. His surprise arose from the knowledge of the opinions these Gentlemen were in the habit of expressing upon other matters where the same principle was involved. Did they profess to consider it no thing that a case should be first publicly canvassed, and a pro secution ordered by a body like this as the result of investiga tion ? He remembered when it hid been proposed, that that House should order a man to be prosecuted. that opposition had been made to the proposition on the ground of prejudicing the case by sending him to trial, under the weight of their autho rity on the side of his guilt. That. he had understood to be the popular side of the argument.—( Hear I)—Let them suppose the case of one of those paroxysms of popular feeling, to which a free and high-spirited people was at intervals subject. Let them suppose the case of a heated House of Commons taking the lead of a furious people as in the time of the Popish Plot, or in a lesser degree, the South Sea scheme, when that House had been guilty of the most monstrous injustice and iniquity. There were cases in point as regarded the Catholic Association, from which they were told to pardon every vio lence of expression.—(Hear, hear !)—They were to be allowed to lead the people almost to the brink of rebellion.—(Cheers from both sides of the H ouse.)—H ad they not been told that this was the condition of that country in the course of the debate ? if not he would retract the expression. The people smarting under the evils of their situation, the persons selected for prosecution by the Catholic Association were sent to be tried by a Jury formed out of the nation with their minds in a state of exasperation. The Honourable Gentleman went on in a low. tone of voice- to advert to the question of the Ca tholic Claims, and the place it hail occupied in the present discussion. He wished distinctly to impress upon the House, that in his view the advocacy of the Catholic Claims did not imply any application of the Roman Catholic Religion.— With respect to the argument which bad been urged by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney), about the formation of a new Ministry which should not be divided by the Catholic Question, he had only to say that fdr many years past all the various Administrations had been so divided, and it was not • would be sure to lead to ? -In such a case - impartiality in the administration of the laws would be beyond all hope, and the country would be hardly worth living in. The profonnd tran (reality of the country had been adduced as a reason against tine measure. He believed much was due upon this score to the Priesthood of the country. He thought it his duty to state with respect to that body, that lie had personally, in times of turbulence, received the most efficient assistance from the - Priesthood of Ireland. Ireland was now i n the enjoyment of a peat share of prosperity, and this was mainly 'attributable to the attention which England had latterly paid to the affairs of that country. He believed the greatest good would result in the minds of the petiole from the knowledge of the exist ence of a Committee of that House to investigate -their grievances. If the Union, which he should have opposed had te , then been a public man, had no other benefit than that of bringing the people of Ireland nearer to the people of England, it would be almost a recompence. If this Bill, however, did not turn out to be levelled equally against Orangemen as against the Catholic Association, he should not think himself bend to support it. Ile should consider that it was not such as it had been introduced by the Right Hon. Secretary. He eltsired to be understood as voting for a Bill which should be elireeted bona fide and honestly against the Catholics. He had bai lee -to e: to and out of that House, been a staunch supporter e the Catholic cause; and he did not see that the sense of the -nation • had been so expressed against it as to justify des pondency.—(Hear, hear !) —lle tught the unguarded lan guage of the Catholic Association had afurnished a handle against them. But there was no reason for despair. That great question might be retarded, but its eventual success was • :ft - citable—that could not he defeated even by the violence of its own party—(Bear, hear!) Lord A LTIIOIIP said, that having wished before the close of the debate to deliver his opinion upon the Bill, he would • take the opportunity of following the Right Hon. Gentleman who had _just sat down, thinking that the usual agreement of opiaion between that Gentleman and himself upon the general prieciples of this subject would save him from the necessity of • ilnaining the House for any length of time. He agreed with hiea in thinking that the fact of inquiring into the grievances of Ireland, by a Committee of that House, would he productive 'of good in that country. But he had listened with the greatest .attention to that Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, at d could net and in it one areument in favour of the measure before the /louse.—(Hear !)2fle had declared his objection to the Catho lic Association, but had not got gone so far as to say that it • should be put down by'a Bill of Pains and Penalties. The ques tion was not, however, confined as to putting down this Asso ciation. Neither was it, whether the mode proposed by this treasure was the best mode. But as this measure was an in fringement upon the liberties of the people, the real question Was, whether this was the only mode.-e(Cheers !)—The Right IhmeGentleman agreed with him that there was at least one • other mode of attaining this end, and that was by granting the Catholic Claims.--(Hear !)—At present they were merely at - tacking the symptom, leaving the root of the disease un touched. As long as the present union among the Catholics remained, which he was happy to see, there would always be some moans found by which six millions of discontented sub jects ink;ht make themselves beard.—( Hear, hear !)—lt was in vein to introduce a Bill of Pains and Penalties to prevent the teopressions of complaint. 'Hitherto they had only argued half the onestion, for it was not as to the policy Sr- necessity of put t•r g d evn this Association by force. It was generally admitted that the Catholic .Association was a great inconvenience; but was it not a necessary one, in the existing state of the laws? If so, the only just mode of getting rid of it was by changing those taws. It had been argued in the course of the debate, that one effect of the Catholic Association was to put off to an indefinite period the attainment of the Catholic claims. In this opinion he could not agree. Many Gentlemen might feel a prejudice against it, but ono man could-say that the present state -ofhlre land could exist for ever. He thought,•however, that the pro ceedings of tile Catholic Association had in reality -forwattled the question. Much had been said about their interference-with the course of justice. He was aware as to theobjections of any Association in the character of a prosecutor. But the case in • this instance was a good deal modified. The Catholic Associa tion had merely supplied funds to those whose poverty would not allow them to sustain a prosecution, and surely this tended very much to lessen the objection. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer had said, that if the Catholic Claims were granted, the Catholic :Association would still continue. He did not believe • this—The Volunteers of FM were a similar case ; so long as they had any grievance to complain of they were supported by the people, and Parliament could not put them down. As soon - as this ceased, and they had no longer injustice on their side, a shigle Resolution of Parliament had power to put them down. Thus it was with the Catholic Association; let Parliament but grant the claims of the Catholics; and that body would no 'eager possess the power of influencing the minds-of the peo ple.—(hear, hear !) Mr. Husictssos, Mr. WETTIERE LT., and Mr. W. LAMB, rose at the same time. After a brief contention as to which of tse candidates should have the preference, the two former Gen tlemen gave way, when Mr. W. LAMI3 began by observing, that one of the objec stion3 against the measure was, that it would lead them into - a future course of litigation. Is this was a point which was it:volved in the nature of the Bill itself, he thought they had better defhr the discussion of it until they had it before them, -and ;ewe what its provisions really were. He then (as we un derstood him) proceeded to advert to the conduct of the Catho lic Association, and expressed himself in terms of high condem nation, upon the address which that body had issued_ to the Catholics of Ireland. His Hon. and Learned Friend, the Id:ember for Kearesboroug - h (Sir J. Mackintosh), had thought proper to compliment this address ; and he had distinguished • the Right Honourable Attorney-General for Ireland, because he hind the good taste not to rely upon one passage in that address. The passage to which he alluded was that which soeke of their hate toOrangemena Now, as to the good taste of the Right Honourable Attorney-General for Ireland, he really wished his Honourable and Learned Friend had foi e lowed his good example, and abstained from the extraor dinary explanation he had thought fit to make of it. In that respect be had followed the Honourable Member for Ware- ham (Mr. Calcraft), and done what was altogether unworthy of his high talents. His explanation was at once subtle, tech nisei, lawyer-like, and jesuitical.—(Hear, hear!)—The ex- I - nesse - in was indefensible,_ as well as the document. He (Mr. We 'Lamb) would not have relied upon it had it not been • mule impor:ant by the defence of his Honourable and leterned Friend. His defence could gain assent only-from a confusion in the moral sense of mankind. The errors he had iteecd upon the House were as unworthy of him who was their, • . aeeh-or as they were of that House. His Honourable. and Learned Friend had described the Catholic Association as setting itself' up to remedy all, the grievances of the nation ; but he could see no harm in this. In what then could he see harm ?. Surely an association which assumed to itself the guardianship of all the great interests of the empire, w-„ not one formed upon the most strictly Constitutiona .• Weis. Haw was it possible they could suppose they were advancing the Catholic cause, whets the only tendency of their conduct was to array against them all the passions, • the feelings and the sentiments of the people of this country ? —Much allowance, his Hoe. and Learned Friend said, was to, e- be made for the natural excitation of feelings in a populate aesenibly. This, however, was not an available excuse when they consideted the character of the most eminent individual in that assembly. 'His speech, it was to be remembered, was a legal speech, he was in the daily practice of eloquence, whieh e as a source of perpetual gratification to him, might be supposed, to subdue, if not extinguish, that popular ardour which has been attributed to hint as misleading his judgment. The edu - cation and practice of the advocate taught prudence, mo deration, and discretion 'of speech.—( Hear )—Under this point of view, what Mr. O'Connell Put forward, -must not he regaided as savouring of the intoxication of applause. Mist he said, he was to be understood to mean to say. Mr. O'Connell himself would disdain any other meaning or inter pretation ' • and indeed it was childish and absurd to offer it. — Although he still entertained the opinion which he had express ed on the - first night of the Session, that it was highly im probable that any Priesthood could brine their spiritual power to bear upon political matters, yet lie ° did not view the Catholic Association with a more favourable eye on account of their connexion with it. Hitherto all that had passed in the contests of the Clergy of the tw4 Clat-chez had reference only to the merits of the two modes o? faith. The constitution of the Association he had a great objection to; it could be called oothing but a permanent body sitting for the redress of griev ances, with which the Legislature of the country ought alone to deal. In the course of the debate a metaphor had been al luded to as applicableeo this body. --The use of metaphors was objectionable-in one sense, inasmuch as they-were liable to cer tain vagueness of meaning. It was•difficult to ascertain the de.. linition of the metaphoriced sense, sq as to know where-it really . did, and wherein it did not apply to that which was the subject s of it. In this way the steam engmeeand its powers of compression had been introduced into the discussion s eand it had been said that -popular meetings were like. the safety valves of these, en, gimes, drawing off ionoxieus that steam,. Which when a ll owe d to vent into the common air, lost all power of mischief.; but if left to break out, spread ruin. and devastation around. Now his objection to this metaphor, whatever its merits in other par ticulars might be, was, that it begged the whole q uestion. For the question was, whether' these perpetual debates upon in flammatory topics, really did act the part of a safety valve, carrying off the steam• of popular effervescence, or whether it dad not Tether serve, like the furnace beneath, to cause the. ebullition and vapour.—( Hear, hear !)—This he thought. was the- ".' are of Ahlociatidh- By holding o ut . an. invitation for the statement of grievances, and a promise to put them ih the course of investigation, they kept the country in perpetual dispute. They all knew the prevalence and force of the likely that any one could he now found free from such a diffe rence of opinion. Indeed a time might be recollected when the Right Hon. Gentleman himself did not press such a difference of opinion as an insuperable objection to taking office—( Hear!!) but took the place of Treasurer of the Navy under Lord Sid mouth.—( Hear ! )—The Right Hon. Gentleman therefore ought not to make this an accusation against any Administration, under any circumstances. The measure before the House would depend very much for its efficacy on its subordinate details. It might fail to execute its own purpose, or it might do much more —it might execute its own purpose, and at the same time injure the Constitution in other respects. Of this he should be able to judge when the Bill was brought into the Ilouse, and in the mean time he should vote fur the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—;Hear !) Sir F. BURDETT began by observing, that although he in common with every other Member of the House had been delighted by the eloquent ingenuity of the Honourable Gentle man who had just spoken, yet he had been at the same time exceedingly struck with the inconsistency of all his arguments. The Honourable Gentleman had certainly kept his word that , he would not detain the House long with his observations upon the question before it, since at least three-fourths of his speech ' was tilled with extraneous matter. The Hon. Gentleman had set out with condemning the phrases which had been urged as a reproach to Mr. O'Connell. It was very unfair to consider in this-way any sentiment without reference to its context, whilst the person who uttered the expression was not present to defend •it, or to explain his meaning and intention. Still more unfair teas it to give to such expression the worst possible meaning, and then to argue against the speaker as if lie had been ac tually convicted of that which it would be unjust and ungene rous to. impute to him. No book that ever had been written,and no speech that ever had been spoken, could stand the test of such an examination. It would be fatal even to that sacred vo- lumc which they all read and revered—the Bible. Englishmen could not easily forget the scandalous misapplication of this power to the writings of that great and true hearted patriot Mr. Sydney—( Hear !)—and they would always execrate the conduct of the famous Judge and the stupid Jury, who had convicted him of high treason upon garbled extracts and un connected quotations. That great man upon his trial had held the same argument, that the libel itself must be condemn ed by such partial selection. It was a jesuitical attempt in the present instance to get rid of the real meaning of a sen tence, and to substitute one of an unfavourable character. On the other hand, no jesuitical ingenuity was necessary to shew what was the import of the expression. If it was capable of an honest interpretation, its fairness and candour required that it should be so aseribed--(Hear !)—The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lamb) had cautiously kept out of view the proper and fair interpretation which was to be found in the motive of the writer. By the use of the words, " the hate you bear to Orangemen," Mr. O'Connell never meant to excite the Ca tholic to hatred and acts of violence, but he meant to ap peal to a strong feeling which already existed in the breasts of the Catholics. If he (Mr. O'Connell) could not persuade them to be peaceable by appealing to a good motive, lie en deavoured to persuade them to it by appealing to the worst of all. possible motives. In this he followed the purest precepts of the Gospel. It was indeed a new thing to be told that op pression should not beget hatred. —( 11 ear !)—What ! would the Hon. Gentleman have had Mr. O'Connell say, " by the love, reverence, and respect you owe to Orangemen !"—(Hear !) Presently the lion. Gentleman would pass sentence upon the beautiful line of the patriotic poet Burns-- " By Oppression's woes and pains." The Poet appealed to the natural sentiment, the hatred gene rated by oppression, to induce his countrymen to vindicate themselves from slavery by the sword ; hut the Catholic Asso ciation used the appeal as an incitement to obedience and good order, and to the attainment of constitutional tights by consti. tutional means. It was by no means, new to make an appeal to bad motives the incentive to good conduct. Shakspeare makes Hamlet address the spirit of his father:— " Art thou a spirit of health or goblin daren'cl, Bring'st with thee airs.from heaven or blasts from hell, - Be thy iutents wicked or charitable :" in order that his filial piety might be gratified. The Hon. Ge ttleman (Mr. Lamb) had therefore been guilty of a gross misconception of the expression in the paper, and at the same time had been so uneandid as to affix the worst sense to it, when it was possible to have assigned.a better one, and when - the person aeensed was not present to give his own explanation. But 'setting aside all interpretations, surely, it was rather hard that the advocates of the Association should be callednpan to justify every sentiment which might break forth from a heart bursting with wrong& Many Gentlemen had adopted the phrase originally used by Mr. Burke aboutahe necessity of having a safety valve fur the escape of well-grounded 'discontent ; but the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lamb) asked whether the Association was not rather a furnace which produced agitation and danger, than a safety valve.! He (Sir F.Burdett) would promptly answer, No. The furnace was beneath. The wrongs of Ireland formed ' that furnace, and if it were not speedily removed, he would not venture to foretel all the mischiefs and dangers which would probably ensue. The Catholic Association, notwithstanding all the doubts and calumnies which it had excited, nevertheless• spoke the sentiments and possessed the confidence of the Irish people. How could an institution lie considered a danger ous furnace, which contained in the list of its Menibers so many respectable names,not of Catholics alone, but of Pro testants likewise. At ie head of that list would be found the Earl Fitzwilliam, a Nobleman who must ever command the veneratidn of every loiter of 'virtue--(Hear)—for the ge nerosity of his character—(Hear !)—for his courage, which never shrank from any honourable exertion—(Hear.!)—and for - a benevolence equal to the ample fortune which he so nobly used.—(Hear !)—Would Parliament . oanaent to itsiptite motives of. a- mischievous kid and a mischievous tendency upon such men ? Lord Fingal was at the head of the Irish Catholic part of the list, and Lord Fitzwilliam at the head of the English Protestant part of the list. The English Catholics had likewise expressed their concurrence with the objects of .the Catholic Association. This large and respectable body of men was distinguised for the enduring passive patience .with which they had suffered every privation and disability— (Hear !)—perhaps in pursuance of the dictates of cooler heads and wiser Judgments, and yet they had come forward and nobly vindicated the Catholic Association. Although the Ho. nourable.Gentleman (Mr. William Lamb) had said be would answer what had fallen from the Noble Lord (Lord Al , thorpe) • yet lie had forgotten one important point, .which the Noble Lord had urged with his usual strong.-sense. 'The Noble Lord had said, that, supposing all the statements of the Right-Hon. Gentleman (Mr. (ioulburn) to be perfectly true— . supposing the Catholic Associati on t o b e till that it had been described - to be—still Ministers had not shewn how the measure would operate upon.lrelaad.—( Hear ! )—They had endeavoured . to shew every thing else, and had left this important point un noticed. .Theonly objection daily weightavhich he had been able to discover was that Which regardl their interference with. the administration of justice. It was asked how those who dis approve of the Bridge-street-Association could advocate the Catholic Association ? From this organ/en:lint ad homittembe, however, was entirely safe, inasmuch as he had supported the Bridge-street Association, preferring it to ex-officio informa tions, as being the least devilish of the two- - -(Hear!)—The Bridge-street Association was always obliged to conduct their prosecutions in the ordinary way, and •to go before a Grand Jury. Although their proceedings were wholly unpardonable in the employment of spies, and the inundation of the country, with the filth and scurrility they affected to put down, yet quasi power .he preferred it greatly to the power -of the Attorney- General. I l bw - Cathdlic Association pursued no 'indefinite of-' might an Association in Yorkshire be called a Yorkshire ques fences and prejudiced no cases. They inquired into the facts tion. The Association had not been fairly accused. If any brought before them, and knowing the poverty of their fellow individuals had committed offence, they ought to be charged countrymen, supplied them with the means of opposing aggres- with it, and not the Association. The Attorney-General had sion and obtaining redress. This was all. They prejudged made an appeal to a Grand Jury on such a charge,and the nothing. They determined no man's guilt, but sent every case Jury rejected the appeal. The Association itself eed been before a Grand Jury or mime other lawful authority. This thutehrought to the only test which could be applied, and he was the only way in which any party could be, or ought to be, was justified in saying that it was not an illegal Association. The brought into Court. H e had expected to hear of some grossly Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) said, he did not wish to illegal appropriation of their funds, of perjured witneseee, of put any restraint upon public freedom. How much more manly juries bribed, threatened, or intimidated, and of some appall- it would be to avow that the present was the first step towards big case of law perverted from its usnal and salutary course.— trampling down the liberties of Ireland. The Honourable Mem- Yet. nothing of all this had been done. Upon the spewing of her for Hertferdshire described it as a temporary measure ; but the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) himself it might be answered that if the Catholics of Ireland were not strict justice had been done. In fact, the Right Hon. Gen- guided by a much sounder discretion than marked the con tleman had been guilty of the grossest injustice 'himself in duct of the Cabinet, it would be impossible that the measure thus accusing others of partiality, whilst he took care. to select could be but a permanent one. The wisdom of the Catholics, such things only as suited hi s own purpose, to the entire exclu- however, would save the country from such a contest. He was sion - of all others.—(Hear!)—He did not know - how the Right , delighted to hear the eulogy which the Attorney-General of Hon. Gentleman would reconcile this with candour, but at all Ireland had paid to .the Catholic Clergy. Nothing could be events he had put himself out of court es a witness. lndepen- more inconsistent with the arguments of the Urider-Secretary dent of the feebleness of his case, he had rendered himself un- of State (111 r. G. R. Dawson, the Right Honourable Secre worthy of confidence by the partiality of his quotations. But Lary for Ireland, and another Honourable Gentleman, who he would not argue the question in this way any longer.— seemed to speak in the very spirit of Orangeism. Amidst such It should be debated in a wider and more comprehensive view. conflicting opinions, he should not hesitate to concur with the Words could not express the sense he (Sir F. B.) entertained of highest authority (Mr. Plunkett) who had tile means of know its vital importance to the country. No man, unless of the ing what others only suspected, and who was in 'possession most contracted notions, would call it an Irish question merely. of the requisite documents and facts. That Learned Gentle- It was just as much an English question, and, since the Revo- man had borne a testimony to the character of the Catholic lotion of 1683, no question of greater magnitude had been sub. Clergy honourable to them and to himself, and oratifying to mitted to the consideration of the English Parliament. A few every impartial and virtuous man. To that Lif:;:ned . Indi nights ago the Attorney-General for Ireland had asked him vidual's manly and sincere conduct he gave the fullest credit : (Sir F. B.) whether he thought that, if the present measure and if he ever had doubted his sincerity, that doubt had been were passed; the Catholic Association must submit to it ? completely silenced by his speech the other night ; and the The Right Honourable Gentleman had at the same time said. Catholics of Ireland, he was convinced , d id not p os s ess a that anxious as he was to carry the Catholic question, still more able or more earnest advocate. The Honourable Ba be would not consent to it when demanded in so impera- ronet said that he concurred with the argument of the Honour thee a tone. This last assertion was mast unstatesmanlike, able Member for Galway (Mr. It. Martin), that the suppres and very unbecoming a person of such talents and charac- sion of the Catholic Association would irritate his sensitive ter. What? were six millions of people, asking for their countrymen into a disturbance of that peace and good order, he rights, to be sent away unsuccessful, because they asked for WaS so desirous to preserve. The Honourable Baronet then en them in a manner somewhat toteearnest ? He was surprised larged upon the vast importance of the Question, which ex to hear such an argument from the Right Honourable Gentle- ceeded all others of modern times. Great as was the evil of man. As to the qaestion put to him by the Right Honourable losing America, dreadful as was the calamity of the war of the Gentleman, he could not at the moment have given any certain French Revolution and its consequences, yet these were but answer, but he should have said that, Judging from the former as dust in the balance compared with the evil of a rebellion acts of the Association, from the names of the persons con- in Irelandes-(Hear, hear !)--eSuch a rebellion it was the duty fleeted with it, from the public confidence, and from its em- ,of Government to prevent, and to punish as mildly as bodying the moral sense of the country, he had a fervent hope, possible any errors which the Irish people might have corn and would make an ardent prayer that the Association , might mitted. The history of }tome furnished an example which it submit to the will of Parliament, and not enter : into-the un- would be .wise in them to follow. When that powerful state seemly contest with the Legislature, which some Gentlemen had subdued an insurrection in one of their colonies, the dele had anticipated. Owing, however, to the protraction of the gates from that colony were called before the Roman Senate ; debate, he was now enabled to come down to the House with they were haughtily asked what "punishment they deserved ?" the triumphant answer, and, speaking the voice of wrisdom and They replied—" The same punishment which those deserve the Catholic Association, to say, that they would not enter who deserve liberty." The proud Senate did not talk of inso into any unseemly contest with that House, .but -would obey lence, intimidation, or imperative language, but admitted the the law whenever it should he passed, praying only that it colony at once into all the rights of citizenship. " Would to might not pass until they should be heard by their Counsel..-- God, said the lion. Baronet, " that the Government of this (Hear !)—He felt proud and fortified by every wiling which, country would- tUllow.the example of that magnanimous Senate, under the present extraordinary circumstances, aided the cause instead of the narrower policy manifested in the measure of the Catholics of the United Kingdom. Much had been said now proposed to the House !' What the decision of Parlia by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. W.Lamb) ahem Catholic ,ment would .be be did not know, but he feared very little I and Anti-Catholic Administrations; but the Honourable Gend was to be hoped from the Government. However Parlia tleman had forgotten the apology made-last night by the .Chand ment would not be driven to any perilous alternative, They cellor of the Exchequer for joining a Cabinet whiele differed. might legislate in peace after the avowal of the Association so much from his own feelings on the Catholic question. That s thet they should enbenit to the law. lie. appealed not to their Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that unless soch differences fears bot to their sense ,of justice and to their humane feel were overlooked, it would have been impossible eleforsenean ings. The question when brought before the House would Administration. Now that wits precisely -what was maintained be one of Wreat -interest., Here he could not but express on the Opposition side of the House. If Hon. Gentlemen had onceonore his concurrence with something which fell from the held a little more firmly to . their opinions, they had the autho- Honourable Member for Galway. That Honourable Gentle rity of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ' that no Administza-, man, with , the manliness .which marked his general conduct tion could have been made. But, said the Hon. Gentleman- in that /Neese, said heevas.sorry the Catholics had placed their (Mr. W.Lamb) " only see the alternative we should be reduced • petition bt :his (Sir Wrancis Burdett's) ,hands. In this be en to, because at all events we must have an Administration."— tirely and .cordially Aimed with the Honourable Member, and Therefore the Hon. Gentleman would pursue the .saute course. he should deeply lanteen if he could notesersuade the Deputies frequently adopted in Cornniittees above stairs, when (as the who hail placed the petition in his helots to transfer it to those phrase ran) the brains were knocked out. So the honourable of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ,Plunkett) who was so Gentleman would knock out the. brains of the Administration much more able to adv ance its interests, and who was left a to enable it to stand.—(A laugh.)—Though greatly disposed to noble and true successor to .11,Ir. Grattan with the last breath of censure this kind of compromise, yet he (Sir F. Wsurdett) that expiring Patriot. When the petition was offered to him, would not go so far as tocall it apostacy - he would only say, he (Sir Francis Burdett) did not shrink from the office, but he that the enlightened part of the Cabinet had submitted to the would gladly relinquish it, and he should earnestly endeavour unenlightened, and that darkness was made to cover the land, to persuade the Catholic Deputation to place it in the hands of when it ought to have been irradiated with light. . One Right an advocate whose abilities they knew, of whose sincerity he lion. Gentleman (we understood Mr. Peel to be alluded to), (Sir F. Burdett) was convinced, and whose mighty efforts to had said that he would not remain in the Cabinet under the same accomplish this great work should receive his most earnest as circumstances that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) did, sistance. • The Learned .Gentleman had said, that when the and yet he remained in the Cabinet, in spite of the differences Petition should be presented, lie.would net follow his (Sir F. of political opinion and the equally wide difference of moral Burdett's) example, and quit the House. It was net pleasant keling. The two Right Hon. Gentlemen did not strike him, to talk of one's self, but forehat proceeding he had many justi- - as they did his Learned Friend (Sir J. Mackintosh) to resemble fications, and he believed it was of service to the. cause. How the two kings at Breatford smelling at one rose, but rather as ever, the powerful eftbrts of the Learned Gentleman should al labouring unddf the same uneasy yoke, without being 014 e-to _ways command his. aid, and he would conclude by . . - . saying— separate or to 'escape, whilst the Catholic question was made hic murus lihelle:lS esto.—(l - lear, hear,!) . . the victim of this union. He did not know what political sins Mr. Secretary CANNING commenced his address by red had fixed this fate upon them, and thus joined the living with marking upon the confusion which the protracted nature of the dead ; he would not say what power had compelled them the debate bad occasioned, and said, that with the view he took into such an unnatural union, unless indeed it was that Para- in reference to the question immediately before the. House, mount love of country, the Right Honourable Gentleman it would be his bueiness, before he addressed himself to the (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) alluded to, which led general positions of elle opponents of the motion, or to parti them to the sacrifice, as in the case of the Decii of old, though - cular speeches, to disentangle that confusion, and reduce the there only one Consul was sacrificed, while here they were points to their separate and respective characters. The first both immolatetL—(Cheers and laughter.)--As to the w ssertion.. of these was the mode in which they should deal with certain of the Right lion. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, that the Ca; Associations in Ireland, ,recommended to their consideration binet was divided by a serpentine line,. he had only to observe, in-.the King's Speech, and to which they had answered by that although Hogarth described it as the line of beauty, yet pledging themselves to consider the means of remedying the no one had an yet pointed it out as the line of integrity.--(Loud evil. To this part of the question had been added the whole cheering.)—There was here a direct and strait forward ,line discussion of what was commonly called the Catholic Question ; which ought to be pursued on this great question, as different - and further had been added, particularly by the Honourable from that proposed as light from darkness, knowledge from Baronet, the Member for Westminster the question of the ignorance, and a liberal and wise policy from a low, peddling, general conduct of the Administration of which he had the ho contracted course of action. Looking at the,contlicting opinions nour to form a part ; and further, questions more particularly which prevailed in the Cabinet, lie could imagine nothing at all personal to himself. Upon the latter topic, Ile felt a great un like it except -the description of another Cabinet furnished by willingness to obtrude himself uponehellouse ; but lie thought one of the wisest and greatest of English poets—Milton. That under the peculiar circumstances of the case they would allow poet had painted the " hubbub wild," and the" confusion dire;" him, at a later period of what he had to address to them, to of that kingdom near the realms of ancient night, where _ trespass for a short tune upon their attention in reference to that , .........___. Chaos umpire sits part of the question.• He should, therefore, divide into four And more embroiled the fray.—(Cheers.) parts that winch he conceived to be the necessary matter of Next him high arbiter sits Chance."-..-(Loud cheers.) discussion. First. Associations in Ireland • wecondly, the Ca- Either the present Cabinet had sat for its picture to the poet, tholic question ; thirdly, the conduct of tine Government; and, or this was the prescription according to which it was prepared. fourthly, the charges which were personal to himself. With From -such a chaotic mass no beauty or order could spring respect to the existence of associations alien to the spirit of until called forth by divine power. It remained to be seen the Constitution, and dangerous to the public peace, there had whether the power of the people could nut an end to the seem- been. no Attempt, as far as he had observed, throughout the ingly united, but really disunited Cabinet, which at present progress of thedebate, to give a negative to that proposition. ruled the country. The King's Speech had dwelt upon the —The question, therefore, practically was, whether . having prosperity of the. Empire, and asserted that Ireland shared in received this recommendation from the Crown, and pledged that prosperity. Swift had said, " That which is true every themselves by their answer to the Crown to consider means of where else is often false in Ireland." It was the first time for a remedying the evil, they should now proceed, be did not long series of years that Ireland had been in it state free from say to adopt the Bill, for that would be an after question, but, angry passions, and participating in the tide of general pospe- to receive into their consideration the means proposed by the city; and yet it was very wonderful that whilst Ireland was thus Government s ; or whether they should turn round and say . , that exulting in peace, tranquillity, twei increasing prosperity, the the Crown had been deceived, and that the description of anomaly should appear of a Speech from the Throne demanding such Associations as contained in his Majesty's Speech, was new measures of coercion and restraint. It had been said that in all its parts untrue. That true it was that the Awtociation. no one had defended the Catholic Association. Why defend existed, but untrue that it was contrary to the spirit - of the what had not been attacked ? The feeble assaults which were Constitution ; that true it was the Association existed,. but made by the Right Honourabl e Gentleman (Mr. e :w o men ) untrue that it excited animosity and alarm ; that true it was the had been shattered to pieces by the Learned Member for Caine Association existed but untrue that it retarded the progress (Mr. Abercromhy). If that were not enough, the friends of of national prosperity. That having considered the King's Ministers had themselves done it, and the manly speech of the Speech, they would leave it without any consequence, and Member for Clare (Mr. V. Fitzgerald) had blown the shivered suffer the Association to be confirmed, and go on to a perma case into the air. The attacks grounded on the prosecutions nent existence. Now, as to the Association being opposed to instituted by the Association were fetile enough, for the very the spirit of the Constitution, lie had not heard a word from the trials selected proved the perfect propriety of the Association, other side to impeach that declaration. And with respectto the and the Counsel whom they sentdowrr to condOct the prose- other charges, could it be possible that any denial should be of cutions, received the unqualified approbation of the Judges, ..fered to them, when they saw that Association still in existence, and Alagistrates. But the result of thes e trials was service- self.elected, self-controulled, self-adjourned, acknowledging-:no able even .to the Orangemen, for it' there had been no such authority but their own, levying money. upon the people_ - prosecutions and no such acquittals, then the Catholics would (General cheering —condemning before they were heard, by have readily believed every tale of oppression that might be means of published debates, individuals whom they intended to told. Having sufiered so lone they were credulous to every bring to justice, and in other cases rejudging and proscribing statement, and it was an act of justice therefore to the Party individuals .whom tine law had set free. If that Association calumniated to adept some test of truth, and there was no test were suffered to exist, and to be confirmed by a decision of so good as that of a public trial at law. The Orangemen ought that House as consonant to the spirit of the Constitution. he not to complain of this interference of the Association, hut thought they would be acting under a different notion orthe congratulate. themselves and -the country -upon it. It wan to Constitution titan had ever before actuated the conduct of that him a subject of congratulation that the cause of the Uatho- assembly. The next part of the question was, did the Associa licsswas making great progress, for several Gentlemen had don tend to excite animosity and alarm ? Here he was com spoken in stupport of the Catholic Claims, though for some. pelled to go back to a subject which he had first laid before the wurious reason they decided to vote for the present Bill. The attention of the house, and which had been so often referred • Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs said, he should vote to byiaontlyte Gentlemen others, lie eon the other sit a nt - the m appeal to thatotheli it atr.ewdees unfair t net to t against the Association, becau se it wa s injurious to - the-cause by the Ca tholics a g ainst a p articular class. It had been said he had so much at heart—because it did not speak the senti- by many ments of the Irish Catholics, nor of the English Catholics, a nd take particular - expressions as matter of objection. Good because it was an ii:clibus on the Catholic cause. If the Right God! Granted, if such expressions had fallen in the course o Hon. Gentleman thought the Association was such an excres- debate ;—granted, if they had been struck out by the collision ence, -and so utterly destitute of confidence, he (Sir F. Burdett) of heated discussion. But if they found that after such lane must believe that theshades of Gloucester Lodge were impervious gunge had been deliberately pointed out to -them, and its ob to truth, and that that which was _visible to e th s the and d t toit:etrleiewwaosrnldo v g i u o a u g s e m s e b a o n u i l n d g nreofterrbeedubsaecdk t 0 0 0 s t i h to e w ir a ti t t t e en o t n i i o nt n ,usanodf thosetheW dwellim wGaesnieirnapleorrlerteislatioidthceoulthiigilliatvleioopne.nSeedcrheitsare); But the Attorney - beratel y retained it, how was ' it p ossible . to say that such lane higher authority. That L earne d Gentleman objected to the As, used it. They were told by one Honourable Gentleman, that SOCiatiOD on account of the sympathy which existed between the the words being used with an Irish meaning, were not un- Catholic Body and the Catholic Association, and on account of derstood in this country.—(A laugh !)—Almost every Gen tile influence which its talents, character, and energy, gave it tleman, indeed, had exercised his ingenuity in endeavouring over the Catholic population ofdlreland. When the two lead- to find out some harmless meaning for the words. But the ing Members of -the Administration differed so essentially, palm was left for his Honourable and Learned Friend (Sir how could the House form any correct opinion of the facts, J. Mackinto s h) w h o , after bringing all his unbounded learning without information, documents, and facts ? They would not and research to the question, and - turning it over in all sorts of rely on the assertions of a Cabinet whose Members contradicted varied s h a p es , a t l as t brought it out of flee crucible of his each other so directly. Was it not monstrous that such a Ca- phil oso phy, w i t h th e discovery and conclusion that - hatred •was binet:should come before Parliament and propose a mea.sure no such bad thing after a11.,-(L aug h ter.)— H atre d, h e was which affected not Ireland alone, but the whole empire? Con. pl ease d to say , was a natural and harmless feeling ; he. hated etitutionallW sPeakiniWit was not an Irish question. As well a Tory, and some people hated Cats; and the time was not long.distant when these lions were to lie down with the itas. and - all hatred was to be forgotten. He recollected an admir able dictum which he found in a Comedy not less, he was sure, a favourite with his Hon. and Learned Friend than with him , self. Ile meant the speech of Mrs. Malaprop, where she ad dressed her niece thus :—" My love, its always best to begin w* a little aversion. lam sure I hated ' your poor dear uncle lik blackamoor, and yet you see what a good wife I have. ma irn."—( Great laughter)—His Hon. and Learned Friend h . 4 found • t there was nothing more artificial than this calling . ,s; • upon marby their vices ; and that it was , : t.y the confliction of ----:, opposite vices that virtue was produced. sao that the unfortu nate man who possessed only one vice would be very badly off indeed.—(A laugh.)—ln ordinary life, if they applied this rule, • ' they night be able to give a very good character of a servant, if in addition to his being a thief they might also say he was a It; great drunkard ; so that one vice would be sure to counter balance the other. In allusion to Dr. Johnson's opinion, bis ..t Honourable and Learned-Friend had stated himself to be a Whig and a Scotchman. But these qualities might upon his ~ own principle neutralize each other, and Dr. Johnson might I have said that he was too much of a Scotchman to be a good Whig, and too much of a Whig to be a good Scotchman.— ( Loud laughter.)— A fter all, however, he could not think there. was any such moral beauty in calling upon men to do good things by the vices of their constitution; and he took all these s attempts to conceal the true meaning of the language as proofs that it was calculated to exasperate animosities, and create alarm. Upon the third point, was the House prepared to say that the existence of the Association was conducive—that it ' was not on the contrary calculated to retard the prosperity of the country ? Was it not impossible that there could be two opinions upon this part of the question ? Was not the growing • prosperity of the country to be impeded by that which prevented the influx of English,capital, which set one Than up against ano ther, and destroyed that confidence upon which alone prosperity could have a solid foundation ? Now itsvas well known that the tide of English prosperity was setting full upon ;Ireland, when • the acts of the Association began to stem its course, if they had not indeed diverted it entirely ; and it was the duty of Parlia ment to restore the state of things under which Ireland was rapidly taking her rank in the scale of nations. He would say, - then, that upon all these views of the question, the Association must be put down. Without mixing up it religious character at all, but looking only to its political character and political acts, he called upon the House to put it down, and to rid the country of its mischievous influence. He did not mean ta attribute to the Catholic Association—he used the word Catho lic only to distinguish the-body—he did not attribute to them that they affirmed to themselves the representation of the people. Undoubtedly they did no such thing ; if they had, no' • new law would be necessary for their suppression. But he ' could not shut his eyes to the fact that if they did not claim it— , : their friends had attributed to them throughout the debate-- that they did virtually represent the people of Ireland ; and this called still more seriously for the interposition of the House.— • ' If it were true, could such an assembly and that House co- I exist? Could they sit at the same time with another assembly , attributing to itself a power as effective, though not obtained by the elective franchise, and acting in contravention of their acts ? This avowal of the representative character spewed them .. at least what the association was to end in, and the question was, - '• whether they should not check it in time before it effectually assumed that character. He hoped he had abstained from the - , use of harsh terms towards the Catholics—he had no disposition . t to use them ; but if he had, the information they had just re- ' ceived from the Hon. Baronet would have disinclined him from indulging it; still that information did not alter the .ex- , •-7 Ipediency of passing the present law. It appeared to him, too, J",' that the passing of the law would lie a great relief to the minds • • ,of the Catholics, whilst it gave the association an opportunity '''' s of receding, which they could not well otherwise do, after the line of conduct they had pursued. If nothing more had been . introduced into the discussion, he should here have concluded' • his argument, and have been contented to go to the vote.-- ' But the Catholic question had been so completely . brought be fore the House during the discussion, that it was impossible for him to sit down without stating openly and candidly his opi- • 1 nions in regard to it. It had been attempted to represent the - Catholic Association as the instrument of bringing the Catholic Clainis under the consideration of Parliament; and it was • s asked how they could be put down without doing violence to. s . the body of the Catholics. He really felt reluctant to speak: further of the Association, because, after the cornmunication which had been made by the Hon. Baronet, it would be tinge- -' nerous to do so. Sir F. BURDETT said that he had no information beyond what he had collected from the public proceedings of the Ca-' .., tholic Association. ~. Sir. Secretary CANNING said that he had understood the Honourable Baronet to make an authorised communication. • --( Hear, hear !) ss' Sir F. BURDETT said he was only in possession of the' newspaper account. Mr. BROUGHAM understood it to be the intention of the .' Catholic .Association to bow with submission to the law when - it had received the Royal assent; but that in the mean time, ~ they desired to be heard by their Counsel and their witnessea,• at the Bar. .. Sir. Secretary CANNING asked if he was to understand it to be a submission coupled with sonic condition ? , Mr. BROUGHAM again rose amidst loud cries of " order' and hear." He said that if time Gentlemen who cried order, would listen to him, they would find that he only desired to' save the time of the House, and to prevent the Right lloti- Gentleman from going into unnecessary arguments. The Aa- ' sociation had declared that they should make an unconditional ~:k 4 , submission when the measure became the law of the land; but in the mean time that they should take every constituf ono - , means of opposing the Bill. Mr. Secretary CANNING said that was his first understand - '. ing of the matter, and he should go back to the point at wlf-ch he was interrupted by the Hon. Baronet. He thought the Catho lic Association injurious to the progress of the Catholic claims in two views. First, that such a body existed at all ; and secondly , their being considered the depository of the confidence of the Ca tholics ; which last reason he believed to be most fatal to their -. cause. But if, when the Bill passed, they intended to make an' S 1 unqualified submission, he should not wish to speak with any ' like unnecessary acrimony. The first effect produced had been ''':• `the alienation of the favour of the people of England, which he • c• remarked upon the first night of the Session, towards their •:' claims. But this was not the only ground why lie had considered -, the question to be hopeless at the present moment; and when . ; he stated his belief that it had retrograded in the favour of ' the people of England, lie begg e d t o be understood as stating. . it with pain. But he s aw no use i n concea li ng i t , and b e. -; s , should be most happy if his opinion were found to be erroneous- The great ground of his belief, however, was acquired from the iii speech of the Right Hon. G en tl eman w h o c l ose d t h e d e b a t e on •:- 1 riday last (Mr. Ti erne y), an d w h o t h en treate d t h e ques tion. ~ with that just sagacity which always enabled him to sele.et such views as were most likely to accord with the feelings of that 0 I p l r o e u s e s n e t a o nd cca o s f io t n h e o c f o u m n a t k r y i n . g l a l e p had r ofes th s iooung of i t . faiproperth, stating t a t in ak e the gth at , ! ::., he was by birth, education, principle, and conviction, g staunch adherent of the Protestant Church of England.- - ; A Learned Civilian who had spoken since, went further, and sheaved what he conceived to be the deeply-rooted affection of the people of England for that Church. He had the ineang of knowing, from private intercourse, that the same feellne were strongly entertained by the late Mr. Grattan. lif always considered the ascendancy of the, Protestant Chure", as interminably and inviolably settled ; an d his object and --''. care was, that his measures, while they gave relief to the Catholics, should go to confirm that settlement. The Righ t Honourable Gentleman then alluded to the fifth of the resolti' tions upon which the Act of Union between Great Britain . and Ireland was founded, which set forth that the Churches of England and Ireland should be united into one church , saving to the Church of Ireland all its rights, privileges, and. jurisdictions ; and that this should be for ever taken to ,be an essential part of the Union. in reference to th a t resolu tion, Mr. Grattan never introduced a Bill without making a recognition of its principles form a part of the preamble ;--- and ep to a late period those principles were never ques tioned. But within the last two years they had seen-question s ` brought forward and supported in that House, which had O s "' cited great alarm ; and resuscitated opposition, which 1 10 " - begun to die 'away. Propositions were submitted to the House in the years 1823 and 1824.—(Mr. Hume's motions relative to the Church of Ireland)—carried to divisonss and supported in the one case by 62 votes to 167, and in OF other by 73 to 153. He undertook to affirm as a thing which he knew, that this was a departure from what Mr. Grattan considered an indispensable preliminary to the granting of the Catholic Claims. ; The degree of support which those proposi tions received had caused suspicion and jealousy in the friends • of that cause—he would not say in those who were most anxious' • to forward it, but in those who had been induced to bring their minds not to oppose it. M r . G rattan t h oug h t t h e Ch urc h e s ° s. : England and Ireland one, an d t h e i r r i g h ts i nv i o l a bl e ; but since a disposition had been shewn to meet the question and to give it such support, that the Catholic question had begun to break down. To those, then, who th oug ht th e grant i ng. o f tb° Catholic claims the on e thi ng nee df u l to t h e sa l vat i on o f the country, he would say—let them take warning, that if a° l such measure should be proposed, without care being taken that it provided for the inviolable permanency of the s ights of the Church—it would fail. They who supported both clue s : tions must settle thi s diff erence , an d e i t h er f orego t h e one • or the other.. Let it not be said th a t i n saying this he W 0 unfriendly to th e C at h o li c Question.—(Hear! from the Or. p05iti0n.)....." I am not a friend," sa id th e Ri g ht H on bur - • , able Gentl e m an , with emphatic gesticulation, "t o th e s pells' , thin of the Irish Church."—(Loud and general cheering.)' . His opinion was that if the Catholic Association continued '" existence, after the language they bad used towards the BSI"' 1