The Sun. — London, England, 1861-03-15 00:00:00

- ATES, Ship-money, in a new sense of the term, seems destined once more to alarm Englishmen for their rights and their purses. We have spent upon ships such incredible sums of money, and we are asked for such large additional sums every year, that the country has at length passed from bewilderment to impatience, and from impatience to clamour. It is hard to say how many commissions or committees are sitting or have been sitting upon various sub jects connected with our naval expenditure; and a new committee, charged with a more comprehen sive mission than any of its predecessors, has just now been appointed. If it be really true, as stated in the debate, that " the ship building of the navy is completely managed by the First Lord in a private room with the " Surveyor," we can form some idea of the way in which the money goes ; but the real source of ex travagance we believe to be this—that we are always in arrear of the age as respects our models, so that we first lavish vast sums upon obsolete pat terns, and then incur fresh expenses for the purpose of precipitate reconstruction. The history . of our dockyards for the last 10 years would make this suffi ciently plain. We might have saved at least infl veearss outlay upon sailing ships, but pers is ted we build ing them after steam had been establis h ed, and con sequently had to pay for our work twice over. We again clung tenaciously tothe pr oved, paddlewheel and the after the superiority of the screw h a d b een result is that, a considerable portion of even our steam fleet is still of doubtful efficiency, so that we divide our frigates and sloops and screws and paddles with a mark of disparagement, if not con demnation, against the latter class. At last, how ever, we seemed to be emerging from these embar rassments, when the new question of iron against -wood plunged us once more into the old difficulties. It is, we fear, but too plain that we have again fallen into our old errors; but something may yet be saved by timely warning, and it is on that account we revert to the subject. Iron appears now to be so far recognised as to be preferred to wood for all the ships of war above the rating of a frigate. That was the doctrine recently expressed in Mr. Lindsay's resolutions, and pointed at in Mr. Corry's motion for a return of all the wooden ships of two decks and upwards now build ing. To a certain extent, indeed, the principle seems to have been accepted even at the Admiralty, for Lord C. Paget informed the house on Monday evening that whereas they had intended to build be tween three and four line-of-battle ships in the year 1860, they only built actually between two and three of these vessels. Nevertheless, it is clear enough that we have only seen our way after much of the mischief was done, for within the last two years we have doubled the numbers of this very class of ships, and, indeed, only a few months ago were pluming ourselves upon the achievement. The French had not laid down a wooden ship of the first or second rate since 1856, whereas we started in 1859 with a sudden resolution to launch a whole fleet of these vessels at any cost. After what has been admitted in Parliament, it must be perfectly obvious that if we had commenced our ironsides in 1859 as we are beginning them now, and had aban doned the old pattern as no longer serviceable, we should have saved the cost of some 25 line-of-battle ships, and possessed ourselves of a strong fleet of the new model to boot. We may say much the same of our fri g ates. The Secretary of the Admiralty de scribed our position in this respect as being " ex tremely satisfactory," meaning that by our recent exertions we had raised this department of the fleet to a good standard of strength and efficiency ; but what will be the result if it should be proved that frigates also are the better for being cased in iron ? We shall then find ourselves with a nume rous squadron of these vessels just as they are super seded by a fresh model, and it will be the old story of the sailing ship and the paddle over again. With regard to smaller vessels the case is still more strik ing, inasmuch as this is the particular point upon which we are engaged at this moment. Lord C. Paget, having prudently said little about line-of. battle-ships, and rather prematurely congratulated his hearers in the matter of frigates, observed that the energies of the Admiralty would for the ensuing year be devoted " mainly to the construction of those most useful ships—sloops, and gun and de spatch vessels." No doubt these are very useful ships indeed, and we dare say the " improvements which are taking place in this class" have had a natural effect in urging on the Admiralty to " the completion of a great number of them," according to the Secretary's promise. But unluckily we have a great number of them already, and find ourselves, as usual, with a splendid stock of the very vessels which " improvements" have rendered obsolete. It was but five or six years ago that the " energies of the Admiralty" were " devoted to the the comple tion" of an immense flotilla of this identical class, and at the present moment upwards of 300 out of - the 505 vessels composing our Steam Navy are sloops, small vessels, and gunboats. Of sloops alone we have nearly 100, 58 of them being screws. It will be said that we built this flotilla in haste for the Russian War, and that if the model has been since improved we must needs keep pace with the times. Granted; but is it quite certain that we are taking the best model at this minute ? Is it cer tain that iron armour will not be found applicable with decided advantage even to gunboats ? We can only say that the French have built some iron eased gunboats, and that Lord C. Paget himself spoke of those vessels in terms of admiratien. They certainly do manage these things better in France, and for the simple reason, apparently, that there is no obstructiveness at headquarters, and no indisposition to accept a new discovery. The con sequence is that there is no money thrown away on useless work. The French build their ships of the most modern type, and, indeed, set the fashion in this, as they do in other matters. We are always two or three years behind the world. We ought to have had our screw deckers in 1857, when they were the best line-of-battle ships known, instead of in 1860, when they had been superseded. We ought to have our ironsides now, in 1861, instead of in 1863, when they will probably be finished. It is confessed now that the theory is a sound one, but how was it that we, with all our mechanical pre• tensions, took so long a time to make the discovery ? It could not be accident, for the thing has occurred over and over again; in fact, it invariably happens in the case of any new invention. We persist in shutting our eyes to conditions which other people . have accepted, and then, as a necessary conse quence, we spend our money over again in efforts to recover lost ground. At this very moment we have only overtaken our neighbours just when it would have been better not to have done „ so. Assumi ng , as th e aspect of the case most - favourable for us, that for all vessels except line-of -battle ships wood is still the best material, and limiting our view, therefore, to this class alone, what is it that we discover on a comparison of the two Navies ? We find that, whereas France has 35 screw line of battle ships afloat and 2 building, we have 53 afloat and 14 building or converting, or nearly twice as many as our neighbours. If, however, an iron -cased ship is the only ship ~for the line of b a t t l e, it follows that our supe riority is a superiority in encumbrances only. We have succeeded by two years of tremendous efforts in stocking our harbours with twice as many inefficient vessels as the French possess. That is the result of our recent expenditure—the upshot, in this branch at least, of the " reconstruc tion of our Navy." The moral, we think, is plain. We must keep our minds, as well as our eyes, more open to the progress of things around us. We must be more ready to accept new inventions, instead of clinging with bigoted tenacity to estab lished models. We cannot shut out improvement if we would, for what others do we must needs do also, and we do but lose the lead by delay. After all, a more liberal system need not cost us an additional penny. As we are incessantly building ships on some model or other, we have only got to build them on the best model known sit the time, by which simple plan we shall save our outlay on exploded patterns, and keep ahead of the world besides.-2inzes. 21118 DAPS SHIPPING. LONDON March 15.—Wind thi s d ay at noon—N.W., ' mo derate breeze and fine. Poirr suou'rn, March 11.—Wi n d N . N . W . to W..—Ar ri7ed—liereules from Shields, for Lisbon. Sailed—Major Wolf, for St. Thomas ; Alexander, for Gibraltar. m°l4' ,PoaTsltourn, March 14.—Arrived—Irnperatrice ni " -en ' , from Table Bay ; Thurald, from Grangemouth, for Ravana, ----- NY tialeTuic TELEGILIPII.) SouTuAMPTON, Friday Morning. Arrived, March 14—Alowe, steamer, from Bremen; Le cog, from Cherbourg ; Havre steamer, from Havre; Courier, steamer, fro, Jersey; 2_ iteaper, from Cork ; Duke of Cornwall, steamer, frota Loudon ; Ally and Woodlands, from Sunderland. s Dom Saile ingo; d—Twenty- econd fo a December, steamer, for S an steamer, for Dublin. Ocean Bride, r Aberd ee , ; Duke of Cornwall, (BY SIIRMAILINE AND MAGNETIC GRAVINEND, pi4EckitAPlL) Arrived—Revel:7, from New York; Maria m orning.. Tara; Frederick, from Antwerp ; Boreal, fr ol eg a rn Bowe DEAL, Plid ay Pasised—li.ll, S. .egtera, from the westward, iirn .Zg g * river. Anelmred—Faith, for Barbados; Idalia, for Swanse a both from London. Brussels advices mention the stoppage of the mercantile house of M. Leon Gochez for DOO,OOO. At the annual meeting of the Van Diemen's Lar Company to-day a dividend of 52. per share was declared IMPERIA vote the men and then refuse their pay and allowances. Ile should certainly take the sense of the house on this vote. The house divided-- For reporting progress Against it 120-98 Major S. KNOX moved to reduce the vote by £41,337 for the depot battalions. Mr. BARING said it was right to call attention to the depot battalions, but they formed part of the next vote. Col. KNOX then moved that the vote be reduced by £50,000 for medical staff and hospital charges. Mr. BARING said that both those items would also form part of another vote. (Laughter.) Colonel DICKSON observed that what was taking place showed the inexpediency of going on with the committee. Besides he had read the noble viscount's speech the other night, in which he promised only to take the-number of men' Mr. A. SMITH thought the Government ought not $0 proceed further to-night. This was a large estimate Of £4,000,000 and upwards, and it ought to be divided into several parts. Lord PALMERSTON said he should be very unwilling to ask the committee to decide at once on a matter which , might be open to discussion. Suppose they took a vote ea account of one-half. The money was much wanted. Mr. CHILDERS said there was a large addition to the medical staff, and there were other appointments to which many hon. members objected; and if they agreed to the vote, it might prevent them discussing the items. Mr. BARING said there would be no new appointments made before the full vote was agreed to. The sum of £3,000,000 was agreed to on account, the chairman reported progress, and the house resumed. THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Lord PALMERSTON said it might be convenient in state that the Government proposed to take the Bankruptcy Bill first on Monday evening, and if that should be over about 10 o'clock, they would go on with the Navy Esti mates. Mr. COLLINS asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Appropriation of Seats' Big would come on. Sir G. C. LEWIS said he should not bring on that Bill before Easter. . Mr. G. HARDY wished to know when the Highvili 6 Bill would be brought on. Sir G. C. LE WIS said he hoped on Monday evening after the Bankruptcy Bill. Mr. MOWBRAY asked when the Local Government Bill would be proceeded with. Mr. CLIVE said he proposed to postpone it to the 14th of May. WAYS AND MEANS. The report of the committee on ways and means WO brought up. THE EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. This bill was read a second time. RED SEA AND INDIAN TELEGRAPH BILL. This bill was read a third time. LONDON COAL AND WINE DUTIES. The house having resolved into committee, Sir G. C. LEWIS moved a resolution on whioh 0 found a bill for the purpose of continuing for 10 years this coal duties and the port duties on wine now levied bf the officers of the Corporation of London. The coal duties consisted of a 4d. duty, which the corpo ration considered part of the City estate; an Bd. dutf which had been appropriated under an Act of Parliament, and tho proceeds applied by direction of the First Commis sioners of Works, and which would shortly expire; and another duty of Id., which would also shortly expire. lie proposed to continue the duties for 10 years—the proceedl of the 9d. tax to be paid into a fund to be devoted to me' tropolitan improvements—the purposes to be hereafter defined by Parliament, but more especially with reference to a recommendation of a committee of last session which sat on the embankment of the Thames. These duties were at present levied over 20 miles round a central point in the metropolis ; but he proposed to confine the area to the metropolitan police district. Mr. AYRTON complained that no notice had been given of the nature of the resolutions. Sir G. C. LEWIS said he had only followed the univer sal practice in regard to such resolutions. The resolution was then agreed to. Mr. CAIRD obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend the jurisdiction of the Sheriff Ordinary and Small Debt Courts in Scotland, Mr. BRADY obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend the time given to the clerks of the peace of counties in Ire" land for the publishing of the lists of voters objected to, under the act of the 13th and 14th years of Victoria, chap. 69, sections 27 and 37. Sir G. LEWIS obtained leave to bring in a bill to amens; the law relating tc elections of members of Parliament, and a bill to amend the law relating to industrial schools. The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to bring in a bill for the improvement, regulation, and protection of the salmon fisheries in Scotland, and on the coasts of ,the Solo way Firth, and in the monthor entrance of the river Tweed, Mr. HUTT obtained leave to bring in a bill to enable the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital to execute certain works for the service of such hospital. The bills were severally brought in and read a first time• The house adjourned at one o'clock. --- PAIRS ON MR. LOCKE KING'S MOTION. - FOR. AGAINST. Lord R. Clinton with Sir C. Burrell Mr. Pryse Hon. J. A. Ponsonby „ Mr. Goddard Mr. Hodg4inson „ Mr. Jolliffe Sir H. T. Davie „ Mr. Kendall Sir J. Matheson Mr. M. Dunne lion. J. Monson Lord Hartington „„ Col. Bathurst Col. Stuart (Cardiff) lion. W. 0. Stanley „ M a j or Sibthorp Col Col. Tynte ........ Hodgson „ Hon. Henry Wyndham Mr. Locke ..... . Sergeant Kinglake ,, Sir Baldwin Leighton Mr. Mellor Mr. Greenw oo d ~ Mr. Hope Johnstone Mr. Divett Mr. Aid. Copeland „ Mr. M. I'. Smith Mr. Buchanan Hon. C. Fitzwilliam „ Mr. Maxwell Close Mr. Marsh ........ Hon. G. Denman Bovill Mr. Merry ......... . „ Mr. Stirling Mr. .......... „ Mr. Montague Smith Mr, Herbert ....... „ Hon. John Cole Mr. Redmond „ Mr. Hugh Taylor THE JAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.-(YESTERDAY.) SUBDIVISION OF DIOCESES BILL. Lord LYTTELTON moved the second reading of this bill. Earl GRANVILLE said that the bill was so imperfect that it could not be allowed to pass without great alteration. The Earl of DERBY agreed with Earl Granville that the bill required considerable modification before it could be permitted to pass. Admitting that an increase in the Episcopacy was necessary, he did not feel inclined to trust too much power in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commis • sioners. The Bishop of OXFORD, approving the principle of the bill, disapproved of its details, and recommended its withdrawal. The Duke of MARLBOROUGH said that the question would be practically shelved if the house refused to read the bill a second time. The Bishop of LONDON said that the object of the bill was to vest, in other bodies, ecclesiastical powers not exer cised by Parliament. Such a bill ought to be very carefully considered. Lord LYTTELTON replied, and upon a division the bill was read a second time by 27 to 23. The Trades' Marks Bill and the Inclosure Bill were re spectively read a third time and passed. The lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) THE HUNGARIAN NOTES. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE had a question to ask which was strictly in order, for it was an old constitutional maxim that supplies ought not to be granted until grievances had been redressed. He wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what instructions were given to Sir Richard Mayne in reference to the alleged manufacture of notes in this country in the name of Hungary, and what sourse Sir Richard Mayne took upon those instructions; and by what authority Sir Richard Mayne required the Messrs. Day to suspend the manufacture of the notes; and by whom the expenses of the proceedings taken were to be defrayed. It appeared that early in February an applies.. tion was made at the Foreign-office to the noble lord the member for the City, by the representative of the Austrian Government in this country, to put a stop to the manufac ture of these notes, which was going on at Messrs. Day's, the lithographers. The Foreign-office— Sir G. C. LEWIS—No, the Home Department. Mr. DUNCOMBE—WeII, the Home Department took the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, and they said that the manufacture of these notes was illegal. If that opinion really was given, the noble lord, he thought, should have laid the opinion on the table, and not by his statement of the fact have prejudged a case whilst proceedings were still pending. The further state of the case he (Mr. Dun combe) believed to be this. In February last, Sir R.Mayne, in obedience to an ordir from the Home Government, paid a visit to Messrs. Day, and required and desired them to sus pend the manufacture of the notes. Now, Messrs. Day were pursuing their trade lawfully, as he fully believed it would turn out. The notes had been ordered by M. Kossuth for his own purposes, and what they were the house did not know. He (Mr. Duncombe) believed, however, that a larger num ber of the notes were struck off after the visit of Sir Richard Mayne. Then, he believed, a detective was put in —(hear) — in the disguise of a workman. At any rate a spy system had been introduced, and at the instructions of Sir R. Mayne. The noble lord might have received instructions from Aus tria to stay the issue of these notes, but with all his Austrian leaning he (Mr. Duncombe) should scarcely have suspected the noble lord of having recourse to measures of this kind. Another question was, by whom the expenses were to be borne. A note had been obtained from Messrs. Day's office by corruption and bribery. He wished to know whether her Majesty's Government had paid for this, or whether Austria had paid for it, for in the latter event our police were in the pay of the Austrian Government. (Hear.) Sums for secret service money were voted in the estimates ; possibly they were devoted to this purpose among others. He thought the circumstances of the case required a full explanation. Sir G. C. LEWIS—Sir, I think there is no doubt that my hon. friend, if he believed that any grievance existed in this matter, exercised a constitutional privilege in bringing the subject under the consideration of the house on the motion for going into Committee of Supply; but I trust, after the simple explanation which I have it in my power to give, that the house will be satisfied that no grievance exists. My attention was called by Sir R. Mayne to the existence of certain notes printed in the Hungarian language about the sth of February, and I may say that Sir R. Mayne, myself, and every other person in the Home-office were equally ignorant of the Hungarian language. (Laughter.) It was, however, a small printed note, and signed by "Kossuth Louis." It appeared that it was printed by Mr. Day, the lithographer, and at my suggestion Sir R. Mayne put him self into communication with Mr. Day, and addressed to him the following letter, dated Feb. 11 : " Sir Richard Mayne requests Mr. Day will be so good as to call here to-morrow at 12 o'clock, or as soon after as may be convenient. Metropolitan Police-office, Feb. 11." In consequence of that letter an interview took place be tween Mr. Day and Sir R. Mayne, but I do not understand that Sir R. Mayne made any demand on Mr. Day of the nature my hon, friend states. On the 13th February Sir R. Mayne addressed a second letter to Mr. Day, which I ap• prebend contains the substance of the intimation that my hon. friend alluded to. This is the whole that passed be tween Sir It. Mayne and Mr. Day : " Sir,—l request you will detain for the present all the Hungarian notes on your premises, as you told me yesterday you would do if a notice to that effect were given to you. " I hope to see you to-morrow with reference to the in quiry on which you are to give me information.—l am, your obedient servant, " Feb. 13." "RICHARD MAYNE. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—Did you give Sir R. Mayne no instructions ? Sir G. C. LEWIS—I wish to say that Sir R. Mayne was acting entirely under my instructions. (Hear, hear.) Well, no further interview took place between Mr. Day and Sir It. Mayne, and nothing further passed in writing. That is the whole extent of the transaction between Sir R. Mayne and Mr. Day. With regard to any detective, lam not aware of any person having been employed by Sir R. Mayne in the manner my hon. friend describes. No expense has been incurred by the Government, and they are no parties to the proceedings now pending before the Court of Chan cery. Mr. DUNCOMBE—How did they get the note ? Sir G. C. LEWIS—Oh I the note. (Laughter, amidst which the right hon. baronet sat down.) Mr. BRIGHT—I think my hon. friend gave the right hon. gentleman an opportunity to make a rather fuller statement than he has done, and I am sorry he has not availed himself of it. (Hear, hear.) Tip right hon. gen tleman mentioned—and it was the first fact he stated— that Sir R. Mayne called his attention to the matter of these notes. I should like very much to know who first called Sir R. Mayne's attention to them. (Hear, hear.) Was it the noble lord at the head of the Foreign-office or the right hon. gentleman himself to whom the noble lord deputed the subject ? Because it makes some differ ence in the case whether Sir Richard Mayne did this of his own mere motion or from the orders of a superior depart ment. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman did not tell us exactly how the matter stood in this respect. It ap pears that Sir R. Mayne had become possessed of one of these notes. The right hon. gentleman has not informed us how he became possessed of it. It is not to be supposed, I presume, that the ex-Governor of Hungary sent him a copy —(laughter) —nor is it asserted that Mr. Day sent him one. Somebody must have been in Mr. Day's works and abstracted a note to furnish it to Sir R. Mayne. (Hear.) It is stated further that a police officer obtained employ ment with Mr. Day as a labourer at the press, and that he took one of the notes belonging to his employer —an act of larceny, I imagine, though I hardly know what the law yers would call it. (A laugh.) Certainly it would not be a very honest act. If he did not do that, it is said that he must have used some paper of his own, making an impres heth sion of the no t e upon it, and furnishing it to Sir R. Mayne. little ftttihe important etarnuet to know,and the whether housewill,it is I a o m r usoutre, we arrive kve a it a t this position—th a t i n a matter which does no ,9 t in the least concern the security of the Crown or Government of Eng land, but whi c h d oes i n some degree, it may be, affect the interest of a for e i gn G overnment, the head of the metropo litan police undertakes to introduce into the workshop of a tradesman in this city one o f his detectives in the garb b of an honest, frank labourer at a printing-press, in order that he may there discover what the tradesman is doing, and take from his premises a note which may be used in a court of justice not only against the ex-Governor of ilungary, whose name is attached to it, but against Mr. Day himself. (Hear.) That is contrary to all the opinions prevailing in the country with respect to the powers of the police. (Hear, hear.) Whatever use may he made of such a proceeding for the purposes of our own Government—and I do not think it would be very desirable eves in that case—(hear, hear) —there can be no question that it would be very wrong for the Home Secretary to sanction such a proceeding on the part of the police, for the purposed of the Austrian or any other foreign Government. (Hear.) Of course as regards the main questi on , th at w ill b e settle d b y t h e cour t t o which it has been referred. Ido not mean to go into it, because what that court decides we can be well content to agree to, but I think the right hon. gentleman owes it to the house to be a little more explicit. He ought to tell us whether the Home-office, acting for the Foreign-office, and Sir R. Mayne acting for the Home-office, or for the Austrian Go vernment, is to be permitted to introduce into the shop of a London tradesman a person in the garb of an honest la bourer, who may give evidence whereon a foreign Govern ment can pursue an exile who has taken up his residence among us. (Oh, and hear.) I shall say no more about that, but the right hon. gentleman ought to make an expli cit statement, because, sir, if any part of this transaction is left unexplained it will create a very strong suspicion against the Government throughout the entire country. (Hear.) Mr.HENLEY— Before the right hon. gentleman answers the questions put to him by the hon. member for Birming ham, Perhaps he will allow me to make another inquiry. As I understand the action which he describes to have taken place, an interview passes and letters pass between Sir R. Mayne and the tradesmen employed to manufacture those notes. The right hon. gentleman left it in this way, with.. out giving any further explanation. I shall not touch on intermediate situations ; but he says that Sir R. Mayne told this tradesman not to let any of this property go from his premises, and the right hon. gentleman adds that there he left it. We have a right to know whether the police in this country gives notice to a tradesman not to allow pro perty which he may be manufacturing in the course of busi ness to leave his premises without any criminal charge be ing alleged against him. We ought to know whether this tradesman is under notice still. The right hon. gentleman shakes his head, and therefore I presume that he is not ; but the right hon. gentleman ought to state distinctly what the fact is. In this case it seems that the question of the legality or otherwise of the act itself is to be left to a civil court, and therefore the case is not the same as one in which the transaction is a criminal one. (Hear, hear.) I would ask the right hon. gentleman whether Sir Richard Mayne has withdrawn his notice P (Hear, hear.) Sir G. C. LEWIS--Perhaps the house will grant me permission to reply to the questions that have been put to me by the hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) and the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down. I can state in the most confident manner my belief—l think I may say my knowledge, but certainly my belief—that no detective was used by the police in this matter, and that no improper agent such as the hon. member for Birmingham describes was induced by corruption to give information. (Hear, hear.) I know nothing whatever of any such means having been used. The reason I interfered in the first in stance was this—the house must be aware that it is contrary to the law of the country to counterfeit the money of any foreign government. (Hear, hear.) Not being, as I said before, master of the Hungarian language, I could not tell the exact nature of this note without communication with Mr. Day. Sir Richard Mayne accordingly communicated with Mr. Day on the subject. Afterwards, when we got a translation of this note, and saw that it did not purport to be a counterfeit of any Austrian money, but that the fabri cation was one of money to be used by a new Government to be constituted, we saw that if the matter was a crime at all it was one of a different character. We took the opinion of the law officers of the Crown. That opinion was, of course, confidential, and it is not for me to state it; but, in conse quence of the opinion of the law officers, the Government decided not to institute any proceedings against Mr. Day; and he was informed —certainly when he came to me he must have understood—that this notice was only for the moment, and until further information had been obtained ; and he could not for 24 hours have remained under the im pression that the police would lay any embargo on his pro perty. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT—The right hon. gentleman has not ex plained how he came by the note. Sir G. C. LEWIS--The notes were laid before me by Sir Richard Mayne. (" Oh I" and " Hear.") PROSECUTIONS AT ARMAGH. Sir H. CAIRNS drew attention to the course taken on behalf of the Crown in the recent prosecutions at Armagh, in having managed in a protestant county, on a trial for riot, to obtain a Roman Catholic jury, and in not calling certain witnesses. Mr. CARDWELL said that all that was done was the securing the exclusion from the jury of persons likely to be prejudiced. The witnesses were there, and might have been called for the purposes of cross-examination. SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. T. G. BARING, in rising to move the army esti mates, asked permission to refer in the first instance to the observations,of the hon. and gallant member for Hunting.. don, reserving, however, his answer to a portion of those observations which referred to 1860-61, until it was seen whether a supplementary estimate would be necessary for the present year. This much, however, he could assure the committee, that no part of the vote of credit should be applied to supplement the ordinary army service of that year. The number of men now demanded was 146,044, showing nominally an increase of 775 men, and it was to be under stood, that last year the embodied militia were not included. The hon. and gallant member had mentioned this fact as if it were not of an ordinary character, but the fact was that the exclusion of the militia was the ordinary practice. He (Mr. Baring) should speak with great diffidence in answer to the hon. member for Huntingdon if he had him self prepared the estimates, but as the house knew the estimates had been prepared by the noble lord the Minister for War, the hon. and gallant member for Huntingdon was not justified in saying that the nominal increase was an actual decrease of 9,000 men. The hon. member had omitted to consider the regiments borne on the British establishment which had not returned from China; show ing, in reality, that the decrease was not 9,000 but 5,000 men. In order, however, to make itclear to the committee, it would be most convenient to compare the average of the two years ; he including in the statement the disembodied militia. Commencing with the whole British army in 1860- 61, the average numbers, according to the Adjutant-Gene rare return, including the staff, was 228,020 regular forces ; the average militia embodied during the year being 9,569; total, 237,589. Against this the average numbers estimated for 1861-62 were 212,773, showing a decrease of no less than 24,816 men. In order to advance a step further, he took the men of 1860-61,wh0 were paid for by the Indian Government.o vernment. In the first year, there were in India 72,712; depots, 15,058; total, 87,707. This year there were in India 62,041; depots 6,688; total, 68,729; showing a decrease of 19,041. Of men .paid from the imperial revenue, the average in 1860-61 was 142,819, and this year provision was made for 144,044 ; he used these numbers instead of the first total, because when the regiments which were expected came home from India, it would make a difference of 2,000 men, so that the whole decrease would be 5,775 instead of 9,000, as the hon. and gallant member had stated. He would now go one step further and see what troops were in the colonies and in the Unite I Kingdom. In 1860-61 there were in the colonies and China 55,883 ; in 1861-62 51,717, showing a decrease of 4,166, and there remained a total of 93,936 borne on the books, including the embodied militia for 1860-61, whereas the total this year, with no militia, was 92,227—the real de crease on the United Kingdom of 609. It was quite impos sible, in fact, to compare an estimate including militia with one which excluded militia, and where provision was made for some regiments which were yet to return from India, The numbers in the United Kingdom were, as he had said, 92,327, to which adding the Indian depots —more than 6,000 —would leave 90,000, the average for the United Kingdom for 1861-62, and as the regiments from India arrived we should be still stronger at the end of the year. In order to make the matter more clear, he would give the committee the number of battalions for two years. On the let April, 1860, there were 40 in England, 57 in India, 33 in the colo nies, and 9in China. On the Ist April, 1861, the numbers would be respectively 49, 51, 34, and 5, being an increase of 9 battalions at home, and there would be an increase when the New Zealand affair was settled. In comparing the two years there was a decrease in 1861-62, because last year the Indian depots were larger ; but something must be allowed for the substitution of regular troops for militia. He did not say this in any disparagement of the militia, whose high discipline he most freely acknowledged, but it was impossible that militia could ever be perfectly equal to the troops of the line. He thought the committee would see that they would have this year an additional strength of battalions of the line, and a much larger militia reserve, which latter was so perfectly trained that it formed a nucleus which could at any time be raised to its full strength. The numbers disembodied were 5,500 artillery, and 12,800 infantry; the force being taken altogether what the Government teemed necessary for the purposes of the United Kingdom, and not too great for the position held by .this country before the world. The gallant officer said they ' had not taken sufficient money to pay their men, but if he would look to the return of effectives, for which he himself had moved, he would see that the average cost of each man for 1859-60 was £54, and if he worked the sum he would see that exactly that average was provided for the present year. Again, the gallant officer anticipated that there would be an excess on the estimate for China, but there was a very small portion for which provision had not been made, consisting merely of one battery of artillery, and one squadron of cavalry. Having thus explained our position as to numbers he should proceed to explain the mode in which the reduc tions had taken place. Five battalions had come home from India, and one regiment of cavalry, and there would also be a reduction in the strength of the depots. In the cavalry, although two troops would be reduced in each regiment, no officer would be placed on half-pay but would be gradually absorbed, and commissions bought out of the reserve fund. This made the reduction 19,000 for India. At the same time no man would be discharged, as it was anticipated that in consequence of the termination of the ten years' service g His Roonyealinlitoigtheh n th e e ss m th en e c w o o m u m ld an r d ed er uc i en-tChief sehlavde scarefully . accounts, and had come to the conclusion that by the Ist of April the number of men would square with the esti mate without any discharging. With respect to the colo nies, there was a reduction of five battalions in China, against a small increase in New Zealand. There had been a slight alteration of pay in the Malta Fencibles, who had been changed into artillery, with a small increase of pay, which had been exceedingly popular in the corps. (Hear, hear.) At home, tl;e3 establishment of each cavalry regi ment returning from India was reduced by 25 men and 28 horses; and in the artillery provision had been taken for the formation of now garrison brigades ; but their complete formation would be postponed until the return of the artil lery from India, and in the meantime the vote would be sufficient for four batteries. There was a small increase in the Royal Engineers, and another decrease he should men tion was that of the second assistant surgeons of regiments at home. One of the assistant -surgeons hal nothing to do, but idled away the time, and was not improving in his pro fession. There had been an increase of surgeons in the Staff, in order to provide for ball-practice and other contin gencies. With regard to the expenses connected with the embodied militia; in 18 6 0 .6 9, 1 number of men, he should follow tha example o f th e hon. and gallant officer, and take together votes 2,3, 9, 10 : 4. 3are clothing d ib a r n i) a n y e necessaries. r i a e These wanee votes s; amounted decrease £7e,4a7eo 913r63ti1e coming yearlB6l-62,andin f 0 to £7,410,346 This ,4710,346; comparison g on a did not concur with the first issue of the estimates, and for this reason —there was a vote of clothing last year, £200,000, to the Indian credit, but those credits had now ceased. The decrease would have been greater were it not that a greater sum had been taken for provisions. The reason:of that was partly the increased price of food, and partly the circumstance that the estimate for the year, few years had been under the mark. This year a great change had been made in the mode of preparing the estimates. In future they would be drawn up by that branch of the War-office which controlled the expenditure over the whole year ; and the house might therefore look for much greater accu racy than had hitherto been attained. The report of the commission on the subject of recruiting had recently been laid upon the table. It was proposed, in accordance with the view expressed by the commissioners, to make an al teration with regard to re-enlistments. Under the present regulation it was actually as advantageous to men who had served their ten years in India to take their discharge, come home at the public expense, and re-enlist in this country. It was proposed, however, to give great advantages to those who would re-enlist in India. It was also proposed to re duce the bounty to £l, and to give the men in lieu of the money, which they generally spent at a public-house, a larger quantity of necessaries. They would certainly receive another pair of boots, and probably other articles. With re gard to the food of the army, the system of slaughtering beasts at Aldershot and at the Curragh had been much ex tended. The plan of allowing in the mess a quantity of groceries for lid. had been introduced into the camps at home, in the Mediterranean, and the Cape; and he hoped these alterations would lead to what might be called the uniform sixpenny stoppage. (Hear.) As to the clothing, it was proposed to issue instead of a tunic lined with serge, a waistcoat with sleeves, and a tunic with lining; so that the tunic would be suitable for both hot and cold weather. The attention of the authorities had been directed to the simpli fication of the patterns for clothing. Of course it was evi dent that if the cloth manufactured for the army were only of.a few qualities, they would get it better and cheaper than if they had a greater variety. The clothing manufactories at Pimlico were quite worthy of the inspection of any hon. gentleman ; and it was remarkable with what rapidity Colonel Hudson was enabled to complete any orders that might be given him. (Hear.) The health of the army had been exceedingly good during the past year. The mortality calculated on by the noble lord at the head of the depart ment (Lord Herbert) had not been exceeded—in fact the mortality for the year had been below the average. The state of the army in China had been especially satisfactory. For the first time a medical officer of rank, Staff-Surgeon Brown, had been sent out for the purpose of making ar rangements for preserving the health of the troops ; and the result had been thitthemortalityin China had not exceeded that at Aldershott or any other of the stations in this coun try. (Cheers.) There had been instituted a medical school at Chatham which he believed would prove of great value to the army. The different warrants which had been issued within the last few years had had the effect of drawing into the service a much higher class of students; in fact medical authority had observed that the army was attract•. ing to it the best young men that were to be found in the country. (Hear, hear.) There had been a reduction in some of the staff appointments at home. Two commands which had hitherto been in the hands of lieutenant-generals had been reduced, and would now be entrusted to major generals—namely, the inspector -general of infantry and the commanding officer of the Shorncliffe division. One major general had been altogether reduced, and brigadier -generals had been substituted for five other major -generals. Other reductions had also been made, and the committee would therefore see that no opportunity for introducing econo mical changes was let slip. These reductions, he might say, had received the cordial concurrence of his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief. (Hear, hear.) He (the hon. gentleman) might mention, also, that those officers who had passed through the Staff College, and had gone through the different arms of the service, had been em ployed on different staff appointments. (Hear, hear.) The committee and the country would see that as there were now officers qualified for staff appointments by passing through the college and submitting to a high examination in the scientific branches of the service, any little jealousy which might formerly have existed the number of staff officers would be very much removed; and that as there were now on the staff some of our most scientific and best officers, it would be necessary to give them some practical opportunity of learning their duties, and of qualifying themselves for active service. Formerly majors appointed to the staff were put upon half-pay, but it was now proposed that they should be "seconded" in their regiments. There was also another alteration which would be satisfactory to a great branch of the service—he meant the artillery. Colonels of the Royal Artillery holding large commands, such as Aldershott, would be placed by the side of colonels on the staff with increased pay and allowances than they now received. (Hear.) The plan recommended by his Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge last year, in his evidence given before the 'commission for reorganising the army, was to be carried out, and provision was made for that purpose in the estimates. Every young gentleman before he entered the army would pass a year at college, where he would learn the practical elements of his pro fession. His education would be physical as well as mental, so that when he joined his regiment he would be enabled to enter on his duties at once instead of having to learn his drill. This plan would very much do away with the neces sity of stationing young officers at depots, which was con sidered so objectionable by so many military authorities. (Loud cheers.) There was an increase in the estimates of £38,300 for yeomanry cavalry, which arose from the deter mination that had been arrived at to call them out this year for drill. All those who were at all conversant with the subject would be aware that unless the corps were called out from time to time it would be impossible to prevent them from falling through. (Cheers.) There was an in crease of £27,000 for the volunteers, that increase arising in the item of pay and allowances to adjutants. He was happy to say that there were no symptoms of the volun teer movement flagging in this ;country. (Hear, hear.) There had been an increase in the year of 507 corps, and of about 40,000 men. (Cheers.) At the present time there were 217 battalions, of which 130 were adminis trative battalions formed by the union of other battalions for every purpose except finance. The object of these unions was to enable them to enjoy the services of an adjutant. Many of the corps had reached a very high state of effi ciency; and some of them were quite qualified to act by the side of regular troops. Amongst these none were more prominent than a corps which was largely represented in the house, that belonging to the Inns of Courts. (Cheers.) In the course of the year there had been several splendid reviews, which would be fresh in the recollection of hon. members; and the general officers present had expressed themselves much satisfied with the efficiency of the corps preseni. (Cheers.) There was a small increase in the vote for the War-office, amounting to £5,600. That simply arose, with one exception, from the annual increase of salaries. The composition of the office since its formation had occupied the unceasing attention of the Government. The intention was to place at the head of each department a gentleman or an officer who was practically acquainted with the business it had to transact, and who would be brought in immediate contact with the Secretary of State, who in turn would be responsible to Parliament. It was proposed to appoint a director of ordnance, for whom a vote would be taken this year. The accountant's department would also be carefully revised, and the Accountant- General would be made responsible for all the accounts. (Hear.) He now cane to the materiel, the charges for which were comprised under vote 6, for manufacturing es tablishments, vote 8 for wages, and vote 11 for warlike stores. These votes for the year 1860-1 amounted to £3,327,322, and for the year 1861-2 to £3,549,723, showing thus an increase of £133,396. The Enfield rifle had been supplied to all the troops at home and in some of the colonies. An arm called the interchangeable rifle was also being intro duced. Tkis was an Enfield musket, all the parts of which were in every case of one pattern; so that after an action, in which a great number of small arms were always broken, new muskets might be made up of the uninjured portions of different weapons. Mr. W. Richards's cavalry car tridge had been well reported of in India ; and preparations were being made for another trial between the Whitworth and the Enfield rifle. With regard to the Armstrong gun, the right hon. gentleman (General Peel) was in error when he supposed that the sum to be expended on this weapon was only £460,000. In point of fact the appliances of these guns cost almost as much as the gun itself, and the sum really to be expended would be £BOO,OOO. At the be ginning of the present year we had only 169 Armstrong guns issued for service, but by the end of it 776 would have been proved, making a total of 945. He thought that this was not a bad year's work, especially when that year had been to a great extent an experimental one. He might mention that the Narcissus, in which Sir B. Walker had left for his station, was fully supplied with Armstrong guns, and that provisions had been made in the estimates of this year for the supply of 1,057 Armstrong guns of the following calibre-330 100-pounders, 280 40- pounders, 197 2 5-pounders, 250 12-pounders. The price of the Armstrong guns had been much decreased, and the manufacture of them at the Government 'works enabled them to check the price at Elsecar. He would further re mark that the contractors had voluntarily come forward and reduced the prices, and the 40-pounders, which used to cost £350, now cost £285. The other sizes were reduced in proportion. Then as regarded the ammunition, that was likewise much reduced in price, as the experimental part had ended. With reference to the strength of the guns it would be satisfactory to know that the difficulties which had arisen bad been by constant experiments overcome, and he r considered that Sir William Armstrong was entitled to great praise for the means which he had so successfully adopted. A great deal had been said about the Arm strong guns which were sent to China, and which were inferior to those which had since been made. Those guns were hastily equipped, but the trials of those guns in China were, upon the whole, eminently satisfactory, and there was hardly any point which had been under the con sideration of the officers in China which had not really been met before their reports were received at home. 119 would also observe that the manner in which those guns were worked did the greatest credit to the officers in com mand, as well as to the men, because it was quite a new ser vice to them, and one which required time to become accustomed to. (Hear.) He did not like to refer to state ments which appeared in the public press regarding matters of this kind, but there had been a statement inserted in the "Mechanic's Magazine" which purported to be extracted from an officer's report, and therefore it deserved some slight notice. It must be evident to all professional men that that periodical had received erroneous information. The re port was not from any one of the officers serving in China. The statement in effect was that the Armstrong guns, even under the most favourable circumstances, could not be de pended upon, and wero obliged to be withdrawn at the most critical time of the action, and that several casualties oc curred to the men. The article also alleged that the old ser vice guns had to be advanced in place of the Armstrong 12-pounders, which were pronounced generally inferior to the French rifled gun for purposes of actual warfare. This statement was said to have emanated from Major Hay, an artillery officer in command of one of these batteries. Now) the only foundation for such an allegation was, that occa sionally part of the lead stripped from the shells when fired. No casualty occurred from this cause, but it was reported that inconveniences might arise in firing over the heads of our troops. There was not the slightest difficulty, however, in meeting that defect, either by the use of zinc or by fixing the lead to the shell in a kind of mortice. What Major Hay really said was that, " On all occasions when required the guns, their screws, &c., wore as clean, and in as good working order, as when in ,England. . . . Their pre cision of fire, and the actual results obtained by them, can not for a moment be doubted. They were the admiration of all." And, again, "As compared with our present guns the superiority of the Armstrong guns is manifest ;" to which he added that they were "superior to the French guns in accuracy and rapidity of fire." Captain Milward who was in charge of another battery, writing after the disembarcation at Peh-tang,!reported all the guns to be " in excellent preservation and fit for work," and added, "this is the Bth time the battery has been embarked or landed since leaving England, each time in boats, mounted and dis mounted, never once landed at a wharf, and at Odin-bay landed in a surf. During the whole of these operations no serious damage has occurred to guns or carriages." In regard to the use of guns in actual service, the the same officer wrote : " The battery in action at Singho, on the 11th of August, fired an average of 18 rounds per gun, at 1,200 and 450 yards, besides two shells at 2,100, all with the most excellent effect. The concussion fuzes acted admirably; the practice was entirely against cavalry in open order, and quite pre vented their forming fo r a c h arge, which they attempted more than once. The effect of the shells was all that could be desired ; the two fired at 2,100 yards dispersing a large body of cavalry instantly." And, again,— " At the capture of the Peiho Forts (Aug. 21) the guns and carriages stood the firing, which was rapid and continu ous, very well indeed. . . On the whole I can safely re.. port that little alteration for the better can be made in the gun, which has acted in every respect up to my anticipa tions, both in travelling and firing." (Hear, hear.) It was true that on two or three occasions the vent pieces had been blown out. That was a serious de fect, but it did not prevent the gun continuing firing, and this defect hadsince been remedied by Sir W. Armstrong in the most simple manner, so that it was now renderedimpos sible for the future. (Hear.) The only other defect of any consequence arose from the difficulty of manufacturing pro per fuzes, but this also had been satisfactorily met. (Hear.) In point of strength the Armstrong gun had stood what he believed was a perfectly unique test. A 12-pounder gun was fired 200 times according to the following programme : —lO rounds with service charge of lilb. of powder, and sin gle service shot of 121 b. ; 10 rounds with same charge and a projectile equal to two service shot, 10 rounds same charge and a projectile equal to three service shot; and so on, gradually increasing up to 100 rounds, the last 10 of which were fired with a projectile equal to 10 service shot, and of such a length as to protrude several inches beyond the muzzle. The second hundred rounds were fired with double charges of powder, and with projectiles increasing as before, ' until they reached 10 times the weight of the service shot, and again extended beyond the muzzle of the gun. The gun remained uninjured to the last, and would be issued for service. (Hear, hear.) A 40-pounder of the strengthened pattern had also been tested in a similar manner, and had endured without injury 100 rounds fired with service charges, and:projectiles progressively increasing in weight from 401 b. to 4001 b., the latter forming solid cylinders, which filled the bore to within three inches of the muzzle. These were tests which had never been stood by any gun before, and the Ordnance Select Committee were, therefore, right in saying, " It may be safely assumed, from the proof, that the Armstrong 12-pounder possesses a degree of strength far beyond any requirement of the service, and that it is practically impossible to burst it by fair means." It had been stated that a 100-pounder Armstrong gun that was tried at Portsmouth had turned out a failure ; but this was not correct ; the gun was not sent to Portsmouth to be fired, as it had been somewhat injured by a shell bursting at its mouth; but it so happened that it was fired, but it was not as a trial. A similar thing happened to a 100- pounder Armstrong gun at Shoeburyness, that had been sent down without the proper ring round it. A rather ex traordinary experiment bad been recently made as to the effect of shot upon the Armstrong gun. A 9-pounder can non was brought with 20 yards of an Armstrong gun and an ordinary brass field- piece, and fired on them. The Armstrong gun was smashed and the brass piece rendered unserviceable. But as no batteries of artillery were ever known to came within 20 yards of each other the experi ment had no practical value ; and as they were obliged to , go within 20 yards of the Armstrong gun to hit it at all it showed that it was very difficult to do so. An experi ment that had been made with an Armstrong gun and a smooth-bore cannon against two Martello towers on the Sussex coast had proved very satisfactory. Tho guns were placed at the same distance against two Martello towers of exactly the same construction, the smooth-bore piece having the advantage in the weight of its shot. From the Armstrong gun 170 rounds were fired, from the smooth I bore 271. But in the tower against which the latter was fired no practicable breach was made, but the wall of the tower exposed to the fire of the Armstrong gun was reduced to a complete ruin. He did not think he had anything more to state with respect to these pieces; but their adoption had added largely to the vote for warlike stores and armaments. With respect to the other stores, there had been a very large in crease of shot and shell, and it had been placed ready for issue if it should be required for the service of the navy. The cost of these guns and projectiles was of course very large, and that was in addition to the increased pay of the men, and the extra provisions made for their comforts, me dical accommodation, and other things. These expenses had greatly increased during the past eight years. In 1852, 32- pounders were used, then 68-pounders, which cost double the price, and then came the Armstrongs, which cost twice as much as them. As regarded muskets, the old Brown Bess cost 305., while the Enfield cost from 655. to 60s. There were not only more expensive arms in all branches of the service, but the constant changes in them had been very costly. After the whole of the army had been supplied with the new rifle, he hoped the expenses would be gradu ally diminished. It must, however, be remembered, that so long as other countries made improvements in arms for warfare, this country must keep alongside with them. With 1 1 regard to the other votes, he would first observe that the one for fortifications this year was estimated at £390,000, being a nominal decrease of £47,000, the works for the pre sent year being very small. It would be more convenient to refer to them when the vote came on for discussion. The Secretary of State was of opinion that the expenses for forti fications should be kept as low as possible—merely obtaining possession of the land for the present. The committee would observe that there was a reduction in the estimates of £12,000 for barracks. On the other hand there was an estimate for works for testing the Armstrong guns at Elsecar, for a new school of gunnery at Shoeburyness, and one in Lancashire, r which would be a great convenience to the volunteers in the north of England. The improvements which had been introduced in hospitals would be continued, and means would be taken to give more amusement to soldiers in camp and where large numbers were collected together. With regard to the cost of the Ordnance survey, it was the inten tion of the Government to ask for the appointment of a com mittee to consider its progress, and in the meantime the vote for this year would be diminished. He would now read a few extracts from a report of some artillery officers who were sent abroad to inquire into the condition of foreign armies. They stated that although a few altera tions were in their opinion required in our military system, the condition of foreign soldiers was very inferior to that of our own. Voluntary enlistment, for instance, they regarded as less burdensome than a conscription ; and in addition to this our soldiers were better clothed and better fed than the soldiers of either France, Sardinia, Austria, Russia, or Prussia. He would now come to the question of the non effective votes. The commission of last session drew atten - tion very forcibly to the inadequate sum paid by the Indian Government to meet the dead weight charges borne by the imperial exchequer. The commission was composed of offi - cers selected by the Secretary for War, the Secretary kir India, and the Treasury. They had recommended that instead of the £60,000 per annum now paid by the Indian Government, £3 10s. per man per annum should in future be paid by that Government into the imperial exchequer. That would supply a sum of £200,000 per annum in aid of the imperial exchequer, which would not be an inadequate sum. To that proposition the Secretary of State for India in Council had agreed, and he believed it would be the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or of the Secretary to the Treasury to introduce a bill in the course of the session to give effect to that purpose. It was also proposed that in order to get rid of the complicated accounts between the India-office and the War-office, of which the right hon. gentleman had justly complained, £lO per man should be charged in lieu of various payments in detail. This would save an enormous amount of unnecessary correspondence and labour. This plan had also been accepted by the Secre tary of State for India in Council. Having gone through the estimates to the best of his ability, he would now come to general results. The net decrease of £185,795 was not the real decrease upon these estimates. The real decrease was more. In addition to the £185,795 must be taken a sum of £500,000, the Indian credit upon the clothing and store notes. That made a decrease of .£685,795. On the other hand, as the hon. gentleman had pointed out, there is a sum of £390,000 for fortifications, which is to be deducted. That made the real decrease £295,795, or in round numbers £300,000. Having concluded the observations he had to make, he had only to state further that the estimates had been framed with every regard to economy, consistently with the efficiency of the public service. He did not think the house would consent to a smaller number being on the military establishment than was provided by the estimates, nor did ho think that the house would consider that the arming of the navy with the improved ordnance should be delayed a moment longer than was necessary to arm the ships as perfectly as possible. On the whole, he thought the committee would see that the estimate was not larger than under the present circumstances of the empire it was necessary for this house to provide for the military service of 1861-2. (The hon. gentleman was cheered by both sides of the house.) Col. DUNNE thought the hon. gentleman had injudi ciously mixed up in one account the men engaged in India and those on the home service. The hon. gentleman asked for £40,000 for levy men for recruits. Each recruit required about £7 9s. before he joined his regiment; but if. he re quired £lO the whole number would not cost more than £20,000. Either the hon. gentleman wanted too much money for recruiting, or he had too little for the payment of the troops. He (Col. Dunne) had looked through the estimates, and notwithstanding all the prejudices of his profession in favour of giving the army all that they were entitled to, he thought there was much room for reduction, especially in the staff and civil departments. The vote of £13,000 last year for supernumerary regiments had been in creased this year to £15,000. He saw no reason for this. He thought the depot battalions should be red uced,an d that there should be no stoppages horn the pay of soldiers for hospital expenses, but that the soldiers should be made certain as to the exact amount of his pay under all circumstances. These stoppages led to the multiplication of accounts, and induced much unnecessary expense. There was in the esti mates an item of £42,000 for the movement of troops. He thought this was an enormous amount, considering that we had our camps now, and that comparatively few move ments took place. As compared with the general expendi ture of our army in 1815, when we had to provide for up wards of 300,000 men, he thought the estimates were alto gether excessive. He had no objection to inspectors of cavalry or directors of artillery, but he could not see the use of a general inspector of the guards. (Hear, hear.) As Lord Rokeby had retired with the perfect good will of every one, it was high time that that office should be abolished. Then there was the inspector of infantry, an office now held by a distinguished officer, and one loved by the whole army, but if depots were done away with, that officer would not be required. If generals of districts could not inspect a regiment, they were not competent for their present situ ation. (Hear.) Therefore, he felt that the staff should be reduced. These were some of his preliminary objections to these estimates. He hoped the Government would lay upon the table of the house what it paid for the clothing of the army. He believed that the Government really knew no thing whatever on this part of the subject. With respect to the Armstrong guns, he could not understand exactly what was the explanation that was made regarding this arm. He wished also to know what had become of the rifles whioh had been purchased for the army in 1852-53. Mr. WILLIAMS said that there was not a country in the world that was making an attack upon us, and yet our military force exceeded the force of France. (Oh, oh, and hear.) He was justified in saying this, for our military force, including the Irish constabulary, amounted to 300,000 men, and deducting the gendarmes and the army in Algeria, China, and other places,the French army at home did not exceed 300,000 men; and our ships and guns were double those of the French: It was now estimated that the expense of the army for this year of peace would be £14,600,000, and this did not include the expense of the militia. In 1830 the estimate for the army, in the Duke of Wellington's Administration, was £7,900,000; under Earl Grey the expense of the army was £8,110,000 ; under Lord Melbourne it was £7,800,000, while under the administra tion of the present Foreign Secretary, in 1851, it was £8,823,000. The average for these seven years was £6,600,000 a year. What then was the cause of this in crease in the estimates at a period like the present. Some explanation was necessary, and he hoped it would be given. The hon. gentleman after complimenting the volunteers for coming forward in the present emergency, again expressed his surprise at the increase in our army expenditure. Colonel DICKSON said that every year the hon. mem ber for Lambeth seemed to extend his views with regard to the amount of our army. Could anything be more ex traordinary than his statement that our army was equal to that of France ? He (Colonel Dickson) was for an efficient army, but he thought it ought to be maintained at the lowest possible rate consistent with its efficiency. He could see no reason whatever why, in 1853-1854, when on the eve of a Russian war, the expenditure for 119,000 men should be nine millions, and for 146,000 in the present year the enormous sum of fourteen millions. That was an expendi ture beyond all proportion, and he must say was totally unwarranted. The expenses of material were in the same proportion, while those of the Commander-ins Chief's offices exceeded that of 1854 by £BO,OOO. The expense of each soldier in the present year was calculated at £lOO a-head, while in 1854 it was but £75, and he wished to know why it was there was such an enormous differencb. He had, however, to express a hope that the cavalry would not be reduced, because a cavalry soldier was a very ex pensive article, and should not be lightly done away with. Hon. members opposite were calling out for reform, but certainly if they continued voting these enormous sums of money some change must take place in the constitution of that house. Mr. BARING, in reply, said there was no objection whatever to the return of the clothing, asked by the gal lant member for Queen's County ; and as to what had been said by the hon. and gallant member for Limerick, he was surprised to find he was opposed to so excellent an establishment as the Staff College for young officers. He could assure him that he himself examined the dif ference between the estimates in 1853 and 1854, and those of the present year. There were, in the first place, 24,000 men more this year, and between their pay, warlike stores, and other necessaries, the additional expense on these articles alone would be £2,200,000. There was a large increase of £146,000 in the personnel of the army, and of £580,000 for previsions. That, however, did not arise from extravagance, but 'represented so much improvement in the condition of the soldiers, representing the difference between stoppages of 4id. instead of 6d. At a time when the pay of agricultural labourers was increasing, if they did not give some corresponding benefit to the soldier, what would become of voluntary enlistment ? In conclu sion he had only to express his hope that the house would be willing to give its ready attention to these estimates, in order that they might be proceeded with without any unnecessary delay, and he desired to have the vote moved agreed to that night. Mr. HENLEY said the hon. gentleman the Under- Secretary for War said they had no right to look back to what the expenses for the army were a few years ago ; but the hon.- member, lumping one branch of the service with another, contrived to throw dust in the eyes of the country. The increased expense was great, and they had in that way a difference of nearly £5,000,000 to account for. The increase of men was by no means more than it ought to be ; indeed, he did not think they had one man too many; but what he complained of was the vastly in creased expense they were year after year entering into; and this they might depend upon —that if they went on in that way, the country would cry out against it, and call upon the house to reduce the number of men. That was what he was afraid of. He apprehended that the country would get sick of it. Looking through the estimates, - he found in almost every item an increased expense. The only item in which he saw a saving, was that of fortifications ; but he saw, that while the expenses increased 60 per cent., the efficiency of the men increased only 21 or 22 per cent. Lord PALMERSTON was glad to find hon. and gallant members agree that the number of men was not greater than the interests of the country demanded. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, this they understood, that a very great number of men covered in a great degree the aggregate expense. Then, again, every one he thought was agreed that as the improvements, in the scientific branches of gunnery in creased, so also must the expenses increase in proportion-- that was to say, great impro cements in cannon and muskets, and the consequent charges for material, were in them selves alone a cause of very great and necessary expense. He thought, then, that they would find the great bulk of the expense was, as he said, owing partly to the great increase in the number of men, and partly to the improvements in the implements of war. Besides that, hon. gentlemen ought to bear in mind that not many ses sions had passed lately in which hon. members had not proposed changes, no doubt good in themselves, but which were expensive. One member, for instance, proposed an improvement in the barrack accommodation ; another said the clothing of the army was inferior in quality, and ought to be improved ; another member found fault with the hospitals as not keeping paco with the improved sana tory science of the day. (Hear, hear.) But all these changes, good though they might be, tended to increase the estimates, although no doubt the additional charges had been well and properly incurred. But they had been told that the increase in the civil charges for the manage ment of the army had of late also been most unnecessarily and extravagantly increased. Upon that point he would simply say that when they came to that portion of the esti mates it would be perfectly competent for the committee to deal with it, and if extravagance could be shown to reduce the estimate. But the amalgamation of the different depart ments formerly existing under separate heads, and the abolition of the divided authority, which was so great an evil, had, in his opinion, largely contributed to the efficiency of the public service, and any temporary increase, while in a state of transition, ought to be acquiesced in, when it was known that the military service of the country was never in a more efficient state than it was at present. Mr. MONSELL said the noble lord had not answered the real complaint, namely, the constant and alarming in crease in the amount of these changes, and for the sake of the service itself they ought to guard against the inevita ble reaction which must come. (Hear, hear.) He would admit that the number of men to be voted this year might be necessary, but for many years this had been going on, especially in the manufacturing departments. There must be now an enormous accumulation of these means at Wool wich after the enormous expenditure of past years for the purpose of turning out the weapons required, and yet they were called upon to vote £200,000 or £260,000 more for these establishments. They ought to know what was the actual state of these establishments in order to prevent a revulsion of feeling which would leave them without money for these purposes. (Hear.) Vote agreed to. A vote of £146,044 men was then proposed. Col. DUNNE having said a few words, the vote for the number of men was agreed to. £4,780,000 pay and allowances. Col. DUNNE moved that the committee report progress. Lord PALMERSTON hoped that the house would not The German journals relate that, at a grand rifle match a few days back at Prutz, in the Tyrol, an image, intended to represent M. de Vincke, the Prussian deputy, was placed on a mark, with beneath it his name and the words, " Death to all bad Germans." LADVERTISTMENT.]—Nothing can be more interesting than the numerous extraordinary cures without Medicine by Du Barry's delicisus Health Restoring Revalenta Ara bica Food. 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KlNLocir.—On the 10th inst., at Nice, L a dy Kinloch, widow of Sir Alexander Kinloch, of Gilmerton, Bart., aged 88. LONDON : Printed and Published by DIURDO YOUNG, at No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE SuN Office, No. 112,Strand, - in the Precinct of the Savoy. in the County of lill4oefox, Friday, March 15, 1861, THE SUN, -* `LONDON, FIirDAY EVENING, MARCH ;15, 1861.