The Sun. — London, England, 1834-04-16 00:00:00

t v3s in lite systcin of government. lii Mr. Ni ilson's evi dence befo re a entriMitt ec of the House of Commens t he stated, There are t wo modes in which the composito i of the Le gislative Council might be bettered; the one which, I believe, the majority exercise of th e of the p eop l e i n Lower Canada have in v i ew , is b y th e prerogative a pointing men who are inde. Pendent of the executiveand, intact , who are able to live by their ow n siste . m eans. That has appeared to us obe the most con_ Lnt with the constitution under which we live. If that were 4 ' u s .Z l ,,r,,°. be i mpracticable, the other mode would be to make the arZtrxiniv,.e COu ncil elective,' by electors of a higher qualification, sit i n theiV. qualification in property for the persons that might be safe *Airmen. I should conceive that the latter mode would fro m ti e nough for all parties ; still it seems to be a deviation s Li le c onstitutisn under which we live. is not itti conceive, then, that the fault of the Legislative Council in ii .,, i the original constitution of the body, but in the manner s mil e , which the choice of counsellors has been exercised ?--Cer. o,y that 'nay, perhaps, be unavoidable ; because it s impost inul b yte teethe Government here should see in the colons, excep - 4 means of the people that are in the colony, they must_ tathkee the re commendations that are sent from the colony , and if t o a 3 '..re men that are not independent, and not suited altogether , ap4an the part in the Council, of course they mtis i otG, !. the in notwithstanding, for they do not know that it „ ~r i se, s 'nts, n ert You say that those alterations would improve the impttieli of the legislative Council, do you use the word o WhiSf t - iv 'e.' in this sense, that they would constitute i a ns b e d a y If ...., Suld serve with the lower . house in their vie sews t lL... d , -- ir e ',7liie with the governor, as it now does, in his vi th eson `e suppose that it would be compelled to agree with nei. lino, e nor the other. At present we suppose that . it is abso- he au i c i O s toPelled to agree with the governor. Then it would th e two'ePendent body, that would keep the " eee laws and itee t „,? ail(' give a certain stability to the existing r it o ootis. quifea l e u conceive that if there were some qualification re sin, .rotn the members of the legislative couticil,. the ptroe legsia would still feel satisfied to allow the nomination of h _ fees„ t 've council to remain with the Crown ?—Thegeneral Sito ei S et' the people has not been in favour . of alteratio . n, bu tb e a feelin g of satisfaction with the usual rights exercised by lea: r ts" r n in thos e matters. It never was imagined, by us at ett e 4 i s" at !t the legislative council was to be otherwise than a body be e At' ng in s° flie m easure from rhe 9.own ' • officers should ~ e, You ofopinion that any class of executive . c'l?- e n s cted by law from being members of the legislative coun. th: Nvirisiy certainly. ? I should say, that in that country 1;4 itt„ gesciot ig e t it o Y l t ie he e nt xcltrded from the legislative council ; '' n tte4',., 4 , v ?utahly mixes them up with politics, and they become, 1 ' Do -` Judges in some measure, political partisans. . tise?......,Yeu tkinksthat should apply equally to the Chief Jua.. 4 , . It the Chief Justice is to be everything he is at present, t• *.i.be r os 'se essiiii , the legislative council, cnairman of the execti """ Part! , Presiding in the court cf appeals, and taking an almost in es :a h ,ii the public business of the province, he must be in g a cert a r''e of avoiding, when he is upon the bench feel ur inst- s . 4 b2aS , : it is believed, too, that. such a. - bias exists; t tl ° 4 e ti in ' th e ', e ' o n u e n n a . prosecution is advised, it must be sane_ j Foune.lll ell in order to . now the expenses the exem_ ?tube, i s ti , titst course advised the prosecutioe, aild the C . hi . e n f an ger Of s e e ledge to sit on the bench and try it, and he is i -8 a bia s a , ng biassed. In truth, people do conceive that there it." If thS Chief in matters where the crewn iesocootnieveerenoend. council, i V ils thl:skntiteiferJustice did not belong t.t r on th o ex his belo.iging n i t i o We re t:gislative coettn't%lld—blef any l l hief Justice, or any jud g e, being 'et to beactive politicians, there . would be no bariii iti their tire° any s here ; but the society being small, they become a - s tehticians. bP i s gt Oct by beieg executive c ounc , il t to e r y s i th e l ttheeytgteetimngixlede ginsti"S Politics ha is the gst.t . I .. h i lag gait, . councillors, but in the legislative counsil, in the s tile billfor opposed to Hs, they take an active part; they are or . . tlisi acs it has been frequently tound that they interpret in Hr co urtsaccedi ng to the interpretation in the counciL" 0 continues__ it t " Would you t hi n k i t d es i ra bl e th a t a provision of this sort 4 ,,T:1!1 be made, t h at not a b ove a certain proportion of the Le- ZiYs tive Co unc il should consist of persons in the pay and em. inent of Government?—Certainly, I should say so, that e,tild .Dohse a proper rule for the Government to act upon. L ou think it possible that, in a country circumstanced as ti ) 7Yr Canada is, the Legislative Council can really command sstinithience and respect of the people, or go on in harmony it,•, o e House of Assembly, unless the principle of election is Ali 1 - Zed into its composition in some manlier or another ? ' e nt fr o ' depends in truth upon the instiuctions that may he I!lei s . s hl the Government of this coustry ; if they are depen tistrotT!o the Governor, of course they move according to the geeo set ;( sl ls to Governor , this country, because the Governor must move " t° those itistructien;" th e ex. flvillier uses still stronger language in regard to ~ Do e !!sion of the Judges. He says— tolapoai: Petitioners whom ( you repiesent complain of the j o ! Uf wh t. ()l , the Legislative y do. logy of this '''' they complain ?—They complain that the ma thatg tsar s Member s of the Legislative Council are persons . they a ;: es , c't Profit during pleasure, and in consequence of the. fl ow dc) s hot esnsidered independent i f the Crown. _ o tss l r opi s „ i „E,', l . eY propos e to remedy. it ?—I do not know that e s g.v e it •.' "ss been taken upon that particul r point. I call j u hes t as tnY opinio n to the committee, that if it were not is°,l3es ou to my the legislative council elective, certainly the S i s,:tis itetityoet.e eick luded nom that booy, and also the coilec. lf revenue, and the ai . l i tatt . 4:l 4 V e k ° a t u i : aa e i r , h h e a:l l. l cl: : :t s 11 0 e t e l o eg u i r , b l i: t w i voeuz be ewere of of accounts.b thereeectve, uisite in ecters, cif , i ttese r i ot ? 9itslititation for the member, ; but decidedly cer „„or Iti ,L i t . iiis of per,ons ought not to be elected in the coun th 'OW thi s 're , c.llectors alio receivers of the revs cue " taile Ho e ' was not only the report of the committee of s -se of c sof t h o mmons, but the language of the represen • Wer c Popular portion of the House of Assembly of her ,altada. The committee of Ursati house, on the Gent lto, str , n s h am . . ongly recommenced that cter sh'4l)oth s, should be given to the legislative councils 0 ,,, , t, c 'e:4l not an adas ; that the majority of the members lt s , °I te s colisist ns holding offices at the plea --,., to tonn e °wn ; n and that any other measures that might te t i et v ‘ ; ," with .more intimately this branch of the Consti ''Li the the interests of the colonies would be attended F the gt__ e,test advantage. With respect to the judges, lartieniareoxece.tion of the Chief Justice, whose presence on to nod oil might be necessary, your committee en- Polit teal b doubt that they had better not be involved in the P ear s 4-, yc l s e u' e e o ss Of . the house. Upon similar grounds it ap ould hold, tornittee, that it is not desirable that judges andsZetwornaetots in the executive council." These were the t' "s ' the ua " Itoe the legi the committee of the House of Com ad ever since been acted upon. 'At that . slat' 1 ,, 1 ; h°4 1 held offic ! s v e Council consisted of 27 persons, 19 of r t j a sure of th 'S , from which they were removable at the ittee that . e crown, and the recommendation of the Ogees tit should a, s“ not consist of persons holding such t os • ...o w , e the whole how had that been followed up? At that ; e hlos es t of the judges had seats,. but they wer s e n n t o h w e la, .., With the exception of the chief justice. I lircilott%e'e council there were . in 1/328, 17 councillors, who ROv er " 1 es at the pleasure of , the crown, which . gave the the 4 wient a majority of six in that assembly. Since then wh e o ,ltrober Of jounei)lors had been government. to 35, o (ti t ' 27 are entirely independent of the g q . ', hear.) \l O. ROEI3UCK made a remark, which was inaudible. N' STANLEY—If the statement is disputed, I have th e t n ee to show the ,members of and documents which give frut -ar nes of all the ' of tlie legislative council, Is o ~nWhieh it clearly appears that 77 of the members hold \I ititlcreee: at the pleasure of the government. (Cheers. ) h on. P_. ee t to the national origin of the membersofwhich t hre e wer in , either complained, he (Mr. Stanley) found that c An gl-rnericans. It -stood as follows :...... -1828 1833. 3 5 An g l e- Americans 7 gush 6 Irish ................... .. ........ 5 0 ,c,,,,.. . . .. 6 This lit lush 'French'canadiaiis Usm , was the spirit in which the government carried (Cheers o ) r- ; -- th e • of the committee , and i. „ is recommendations With ihs'tow that they still continued to carry extract from a de spat,h e say spirit, he would read an addressed to the them through not i i i°of Lord Aylmer, dated 1831, and Stanley) h4tl ri, d Who filled the office which (Mr.he.twas stated, in rekre honour of now filling, in which `` The to the appointment of mein!)F n r e s re o l the number of these gemlemen, if appointed, w.'11,1 ,•nfastehe Council— and the Speak?r, and witrgislative Council to 35, 1 inc u _ tr kt of Q°iit eoUnting the three Puisne Juggeonadofßtohweedins): i lvho no long (Messrs. Kerr, Tashereau, 'iheratio --ger attend-the meetings, or take part . your lordshi ns.of that body In the accompany' i en now accompanying list the de recom,,P will obsery , that of the eleven gent . em list are i'1, 4(1 e 4 to b: ppointed legislative councillors, ” e e ig a ht 14 4% - to extraCiion four are members of th t e he n goves-eMbly, and they are totally independent of ____ has by of the province, with one exception, as al' local se att emi Y the .accompanying list, and the circumstancesthyfi tat.intng, which are therein stated. the ev ent u of which the Legislative Coun O ci f l will Icsonus,iisltl bein futti, of these gentlemen being appointed, b e s of French extracti " And at the head . - tpttfioviind the nam e of Ma r And who filled the in ( 1. , e offic e of provincial aidede-camP Governor. t o the C e ll*, hear.) The result was, that instead of thes..aGroc yq:cent having a majority of six in the Legi i ti (4 birthere removable at pleasure,. . e . ii dent and be ,i, h,, .: &ve Members were now mdeen , as in 1828, the ,01,.,,,,... that of the Government. (Cheers.) This tieBti'" that the Government had substantially . and ho that of hiQ adnPted the recommendations t hat h (Hear, hear.) The hon. ge o n f tl t e h m e an co had stated lki,i e (Mr Stanley) had departed from the principles ~ he • d in the evidence before - , N, oh, by le committee, but he (Mr. .Stanley) had th e 5 -I read that which e, - rt made thereon; atiii, oiirlluittee of the House,- and the rge of corn- Phtt ee I adopting the recommenda n of hi s ' 'te (Ai. Stanley) had only examfoilluszedd,thbeatatlapslte, Pe e n: pre decessor, who had, late down the reptatt.°lnpelled to adopt the principles ilnid l 'tat p , The hon member asked whether despatch the was, that it th e 4 u- wls written in a spirit which showe r d good-will Nvksi:s'eTtbly His (Mr. Stanley's) answer monstr?us treterii(4ltY to speak plainly in to ___d which i e had ~„4 1 s et up by the House of A!sein y? tt auj ed regard to bl to, tend .4 h i d n° beet • in would, if submitted d to what h..., p subversio n in sayl • With regar 1 1 ' 0 7 l eer k s. , i , ." of the constitution. could er Canadas, he the ~,eelp sad ink In respect to the Low he accepted °43 of f3„..41g that it was all done before he took upon iiinself I i • 'ice for the Colonies ; and while was done by hi s Is shar e of the responsibility of all that of the a,rs ,)fpredee__sor his acts wereart dill , 5 th e A ,'- .11---in far as _ . o. hi h he wawa member— bed. tine_ tionsl"l,,N4Z-1.11 ristration of which 110 such invidious is had en abe tira`Lp septared t 9. h a and his predecessor, .as a to abiehurt;;No hy"tilebi ween Ter One of the uestion 01 fin anc e . at 61 1. ' 1. memadverted, was the . question be tflore r , arid heßtzildt erian the house, that nothing couldwe, t--'atiat, Sher than tha_t the Legislative Assembly of Lo f the ProvineesgeUld have full control over the revenue o co _ rectuess . f , l i k e (Mr. Stanley) admitted the general hon. r eoleiria°„`!'at position • but he thought that the iv _ , 3u re th - Self wo uld ' adinit— or at all events, he thi iik . at the house would j in with ' him (mr. stanley)!L be itiPR-----that the G • -o d Council shouh. hi . Iperids oNernor, Judges, an Assem 3. Re ht of an annual vote of the House of eat( r Npfirtai, ar, htar. ) If there was one thing of gr - qhe r, it " to the good administration of justice than . an_ was the independence of the judicial establish , ' ment (Hear, hear) ; its independence of the Crown on the one side, and of the people on the other. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck.) He ( Mr. S.) was glad to hear that , cheer from the hen. gen , lettn.n ; for, in giving it, he himself justified all that he (Mr. S.) had done in regard to this part of the subject. ( Hear, hear.) But the hon. gentleman had omitted to state, that in 1774, the Act called the Quebec Art was passed, under which certain duties were leviable by his Alajesty, without any control. In 1778, it was enacted that these duties should not be ap plicable but to the purpose of the provinces—and in 1791 an act was passed, which divided the upper from the lower province, with separate legislatures ; and which guaranteed to the upper province the enjoyment of the laws of Great Britain, and to the lower province and the seignories along the banks of the Saint Lawrence, that of the French laws, which were feudal laws in their y,orst form. Now, it was not till 1818 that the territorial revenue was found defi cient for the purposes of the province, and it was conse quently unnecessary to apply to the House of Assembly for assistance. But at last, when it was found necessary to ap ply, the House of Assembly said, that if they had to pay the money they ought to have some control over the man ner in which it was expended. He admitted that it was one of the recommendations of the committeeof 1828, that the control of the revenue should be given to the House of Assembly ; and he (Mr. Stanley) would say that that recommendation, as far as practicable, had been sedu lously adhered to. In consideration of the misery and want which followed the prevalence of cholera in Montreal, the governor conceived himself justified in giving 7,000/. to assist the necessitous of the sufferers on the occasion ; and he had, on the meeting ofthe house, applied for the re payment of that sum. This was the onlyinstance in which the governor had taken upon himself the responsibility of spending money belonging to the house, and the only case, indeed, in which he had in any way interfered in one way or other with its finances. (Hear, hear, from the ministerial side of the house.) With respect to the judges in our Canadian colonies, the select committee of that house, appointed in 1828 to inquire into matters connected with the civil go vernment in that country, had recommended to parliament that they should be equally independent of the legislative assembly and of the crown. In accordance with this re commendation, his noble friend had proceeded with the greatest caution and forbearance with regard to the house of assembly. He had reposed confidence in their sense of what was due in the circumstances of the case, but had been disappointed. In 1830, his (Mr. Stanley's) noble friend had proposed that they should appropriate a perma nent fund for the payment of the salaries of the judges; but the proposal was disregarded. No such permanent ap propriation had been made. He had made the offer to the legislature of Lower Canada, and to the legislature of Upper Canada. From the latter he had received a letter of thanks for the offer, acknowledging it was handsome, and saying that a sufficient permanent civil list should be voted by the legislature. His noble friend had trusted to the honour and patriotism of the house of assembly - in the matter; but they had not yet come to the determination of adopting the recommendation of the select committee of 1828, to make the judges independent. The house of as sembly had not proved themselves worthy of the confidence which had been reposed in them. They had endeavoured to obtain by-objects, by a circuitous course, which they would not venture to acknowledge openly. In this state, things remained when he (Mr. Stanley) commenced his duties as Secretary for the Colonies. The house of assembly had proposed one bill respecting the mat ters to which he had been directing the attention of the house ; but that bill was clogged with' illegal conditions, and, therefore, his Majesty had been saved the necessity of signing it. If every officer of the Government depended for his salary on an annual vote of the House of Assembly, swayed as it was by passion and prejudice--and he had no hesitation in saying, though he lamented the fact, that it was so—it would be as well to do away not only with the functions of council, but with the legislative, exe cutive, and every other branch of the Administration. The House of Assembly had arrogated to themselves functions to which it had no right, and had exercised a power alto gether unwarranted by the law. In 1831 they passed a resolution that no man should be eligible to sit in their house who held office under the Crown, and added a clause to the resolution arrogating to themselves this extraordinary power, that until such resolution should receive the sanc tion of his Majesty, no officer who might be chosen to a seat in their house should be allowed to perform the func tions of a legislator. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Stanley) spoke under correction, but he spoke from very high autho rity indeed, when he said that this was a stretch of power which the House of Commons never arrogated to itself. It never claimed to itself the right or power to give any of its resolutions the force of a law before such resolutions had received the concurrence of the other two branches of the Constitution. In accordance with the resolution in ques tion, the House of Assembly had suspended the issuing of a writ for the election of a member for Montreal, for a year and a half, because that important, and trading, and commercial town, was chiefly the seat of British in dustry and British interests. He (Mr. Stanley) now came to the last point—the peculiar circumstances of Upper Canada. There, there was no animosity among the inhabitants, in consequence of distinctions either in politi cal or religious sentiments. The case was very different in Lower Canada. Perhaps the house would permit him (Mr. Stanley) here to refer to the evidence of the state of feeling on religion and politics in the Canadas, given by men whose intelligence and veracity were unquestionable. (Here the right hon gentleman read from the report of the select committee of 1823, the evidence of Mr. Edward Ellice, and one or two other gentlemen.) Much of the animosity which existed in Lower Canada upon religious subjects, arose from the circumstance of there being so many French emigrants there. No person could be mere opposed than he was to anything which could be con strued into an interference with the fullest religious liberty, both in faith and practice ; but he felt it his duty to extend protection to British subjects ; and the contest now going on in Lower Canada was a contest between British sub jects and French emigrants. He (Mr. Stanley) was aware there were many persons, for whose intelligence and opinions he entertained a high respect, who advocated a union between Upper and Lower Canada as the most ef fective measure which could be had recourse to for the ad justment of the differences and the healing of the divisions and dissensions which existed in that part of our colonies. He was of a very different opinion. A union between the two Canadas might have advantageously taken place some time back ; but he certainly did not think it would be prudent to venture on so serious a step at present. It was possible, indeed, that circumstances might arise which might force on parliament the necessity of taking such a step, and in such a contin gency the union might be productive of mutual advantage ; but he must repeat, that he saw nothing that would warrant such a measure just now ; and he, for one, was not as yet prepared to assent to it. He trusted that circumstances would not occur to force it on the Government and that house. He wished, he repeated, to see all possible protec tion afforded to French emigrants ; but that protection must be extended to them in such a manner as would not in terfere with the rights and privileges of British subjects. The complaints which the House of Assembly preferred against the English Government were various, and he (Mr. Stanley), while he consented to the appointment of a select committee to inquire into their alleged grievances, would take care that those complaints were considered one by one. Among other things laid to the charge of his Majesty's Government, was that of making unreasonable demands from the House of Assembly respecting the in terests of British traders in Montreal. All that the Crown asked on this head was, that the House of Assembly should shake off the trammels which crippled and cramped commerce in that important and trading town. And he would ask, was there anything unreasonable in this? When every measure of the House of Assembly was inimical to British property and British subjects, was he (Mr. Stanley) to concede to the demand to have the Legislative Council also elected by the people? He was not prepared to yield this concession to any menace or intimidation that might be re sorted to for the purpose. The right of continuing the Legislative Council on the footing on which it at present stood was a right which he was prepared to assert at all hazards, and by every constitutional means in his power. The last charge which had been made against the British Go vernment, was, that they had not admitted French emigrants to office in the Canadas. The charge was not altogether correct ; for out of 214 functionaries, 43 were French emigrants. It was true that the admission to office of French emigrants were not all in the same proportion as those of suluects of Great Britain ; but he was sure the house would concur with him, when he said it was at once natural and necessary that in all our colonies the offices should be chiefly filled by persons from the mother country. With regard to the judges in the Canadas, he begged to state that none of them belonged to this country. The litserlsialac-ss e w , ho administered justice there were either born in or . had settled in it early in life, and had made of yeaarnds.instArearinsutehweirrecpolinedstatnet every y y e fo h r ar a g l e on ef g se riesany yconsequence that had been preferred against his Majesty's Government. He would agree to the appointment of a select committee, and would see that every despatch and document bearing on th e c h arge brought, against them be referred to the full and impartial consideration of that com mittee. He would consent, without hesitation and without reluctance, to the British Gov ernment being put on its trial ; he neither wished nor asked any favour t o be shown them. What he wished was, that the trial should be full, and fearless, and impartial. He had but one point more to detain the house on—it was most desirable that the inde pendence of the judges there should be secured by render ing their salaries wholly independent of the squabbles of the two houses of legislature, For this purpose it would be necessary to suspend the act passed on this subject in the time of his noble predecessor, until such time as a final and permanent provision were made for the judicial bench by the United Legislative Assembly of Canada, and he thought that the house would not think this proposition unreasonable, as the ob ject proposed was so important a one as securing the independence of the dispensers of the law. He would not detain the house by any observations upon the resolutions passed by the Canadian House of Assembly— their exuberant eulogies upon those ardent lovers of Ame rica and freedom, the hon. member for Middlesex, and he hon. and learned member for Dublin—nor would h( •omment, though he might well, upon their declaration t hat America, and not Britain, was the land whose insti tutions they admired, and wished to copy. He would no trespass further on the attention of the house, but con clude by moving, as a n am e n dment, " That a select com mittee should be appointed to consider the complaints of grievances made by the inhabitants of Lower Canada, and report thereon to the house, and also to inquire and report to the house how far the recommendations made on the subject by a former committee had been attended to." The question being put, Mr. O'CONNELL said he should recommend the hon. member for Bath to withdraw his motion and allow the amendment to remain, as he would thereby throw all the responsibility of the matter on government, whose pro ceedings, if they persisted in the course they had hitherto pursued, would very speedily have the effect of bringing about for the Canadians the same independence as was now enjoyed by their neighbours in the United States. He protested against the constitution of the legislative council, mnd against the shameless interference of our government in the Canadian elections. _ . Mr. HUME said the right hon. Secretary had intro- Ouced his name very unnecessarily • but he was very in different about the right hon. gentleman's sneer, as he con sidered that it was much better to be eulogised as the friend than be cursed as the oppressor of a distant land. The Canadians had done him (Mr. H.) no more than jus tice, in describing him as the opponent of a bad Tory ad ministration, and the right hon. Secretary would find him an equally determined opponent of a bad Whig Adminis tration. r He had been surprised at the manner in which the right hon. gentleman had spoken of these resolutions, which had been rejected in the House of Legislature in Upper Canada solely by the most determined exercise of every engine of bribery and corruption, but which had passed the House of Assembly in Lower Canada by a ma jority of fifty-eight. The right hon. Secretary appeared to set at nought the feelings of the Canadians. No sooner did he come into office, than, by way of expressing his con tempt for the conciliatory measures adopted by his prede cessor he recalled the Attorney and Solicitor-General, who had been dismissed by Lord Goderich in accordance with the universally expressed wish of the Canadians, and thrust them into still higher offices than they held before— the one in Nova Scotia, the other in Canada. The na tural consequence was, that while the Earl of Ripon was every way applauded and thanked for his liberality and considerate government, the proceedings of the present Colonial Secretary were characterised as tyrannical and unconstitutional. He (Mr. Hume) deeply regretted that his Majesty's Government did not see the wisdom, justice, and policy of leaving these colonies to manage their own affairs. He hoped that the noble lord (Althorp), who was the chief director of the affairs of his Majesty's Go vernment in that house, would take care that the commit tee moved for was impartially and fairly appointed. He heartily concurred in the motion. The right hon. Secre tary for the Colonial Department had declared his anxiety to render justice to the colonies, but he had taken a very extraordinary method of doing so; he seemed, indeed, to be much more pleased with his own views with regard to this matter than the parties most deeply interested were likely to be. Lord HOWICK said, that some of the statements made by the hon. member for Middlesex, and by the hon. and learned member for Dublin, were so erroneous, that it was necessary for him to offer one or two observations to the house. As regarded the alleged desire to control the public purse, he must declare that neither the present go vernment, nor, he was bound in justice to add, the govern ment of which the Duke of Wellington was the head, wished to effect any control over the revenue of Canada. He begged to remind the house the point in dispute was, whether fixed salaries should be given to the judges to render them in dependent. It had been asserted that the government ought to deprive the people of their right of taking ground for the building of Catholic churches ; but he declared, on the other hand, that ever since the conquest this country had acted with great liberality towards the Catholic clergy. With respect to the cases of exclusion to which reference had been made, he would inform the house that the Earl of Ripon, when Secretary of State for the Colonial De partment, in a communication which he made to the legis lature, in reply to the information he had received, did not deny the power which had been exercised ; but his lord ship remarked, " that the justice of the exclusion was more than questionable ; the individuals, however, having been excluded, the writs must issue again." He (Lord Howick) would express his regret at the state of Upper and Lower Canada. From the first moment that he had the honour of a seat in that house, he had taken the deepest interest in the affairs of these states. When he sat on the other side of the house he was one of those who, in connection with the late Mr. Huskisson, opposed, and successfully opposed, a measure brought forward by Sir George Murray, which had for its object the control of the revenue and the formation of a moderate civil list. As Under-Secretary for the Colonies, he subsequently had the honour of bringing in a bill by which the Crown gave up its title to the disputed revenue, on condition that the legisla ture would provide permanently for the governor and the judges of the province. He much regretted that no such provision had taken place. There was a distinction, how ever, to be made between Upper and Lower Canada, the legislature of the former having agreed to a civil list which was on a more economical scale than some thought it ought to be, but which had, nevertheless, been accepted. He must admit that the aspect of affairs was most threatening when he quitted office. He did not know what had pro duced the crisis. In his opinion no good would result from the committee, and he would express his hope that, at all events, hon. gentlemen would not, by language used in that house, aggravate the existing disputes. Mr. STEW ART said that the people of Canada were most anxious for this discussion, desiring, above all things, to have their differences settled. He was sorry that the hon. and learned member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had connected, in the speech he had addressed to the house, the affairs of Upper and Lower Canada. He rejoiced in the appointment' of a committee, and he should deceive the house if he did not explicitly state what would be his recommendation. He would say, " Unite them, give them unity, for sooner or later it must come. Give them peace and concord amongst themselves." That was the only way in which to unite them, so as to enable them ef fectually to resist their enemies, whose object was to weaken, and then to separate, the connection of the Cana dian States with this country. Mr. ROEBUCK replied. He contended that if there had been any breach of good faith, it rested with the Go vernment, and not with the House of Assembly. As a proof of the violence that had been offered to the popular feeling, he called attention to the first of attempts having been made by the judges to suppress the use of the French language in the courts of law. Could it be said that no thing had been done to excite the people's jealousy, while unjust distinctions were kept up ; or when attempts were made to establish a Protestant church—the greater part of the population being Catholic? How could it be expected that people would contentedly see efforts made to set up a church in which they felt no interest, if they did not en tertain towards it a decided hostility? There ought to be no distinction of a religious description—no distinction of classes of the people ; and till this was obtained, he hoped that the exertions which had been made to get such dis tinctions abolished would be continued. Mr. ROEBUCK then withdrew his motion, and a select committee was agreed to, to inquire into the best mode of carrying Mr. Stanley's motion into effect. Mr. STANLEY then moved the committee, which, amongst others, included all those now in the house who constituted part of the committee of 1828. Mr. HUME wished to have himself excepted, not from an unwillingness to serve, but because he was already a member of seven committees. Mr. O'CoNNELL postponed his motion, as did also Sir JAMES GRAHAM. Mr. LYNCH, being requested to postpone his motion respecting the Court of Chancery in England, said that he had, when before so requested, acceded to the wish ; but, however interesting might be the object of the noble lord ( Althorp), he (Mr. Lynch) still did not think the house had a right to call upon him for further postponement. The hon. member ultimately agreed to the postponement. Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY obtained leave to bring in a bill for the better regulating the delivery of letters and newspapers transmitted by the General Post. Mr. VERNON SMITH said he had some observations to make upon this subject, which he would reserve to the second reading of the bill. Mr. LYNCH—As he had acceded to the request of the house, hoped some indulgence would be granted to him, and that he might obtain permission to bring forward his motion on some other day. It was understood that the discussion was fixed for to morrow (this day). TITHES. Lord ALTHORP said he rose to bring forward the motion of which he had already given notice, and in doing so, feared he should be obliged to occupy the house with some details which, at that late hour, might press hardly on their time. The question which he had to bring before them was one of great andparamount interest to the landed proprietors of this country ; and though on some points connected with it, differences of opinion might exist, there was one upon which he would not hesitate to say, all were agreed, and that was, that wherever the right to tithes existed, the right was not in the landowner. He felt satisfied in assuming it as the opinion of that house, that so long as the church required the assistance of the reve nues arising out of this species of property, that want would be considered as forming a prior claim to its pos session. With respect to the landowner, no person, what ever may be his o pi n i on w ith regar d t o th e na t ure or dis position of the property, would recognise in him any right which would form any claim to it whatsoever. Here the noble lord, p erce i v i ng t h at he was proceeding informally, said his right hon. friend (M r . S tan l ey ) rem i nded h i m of h:s mistake, as it was nece ssar y th at h e should make his motion in a committee of the whole house (A laugh); he would, therefore, move the order of the day for the house resolving itself into committee, which hav ing been done, the noble lord apologised for his mis take, which was owing to his anxiety in bringing forward so important a quest i on at so late an hour of the evening. But to pro cee d. H e was perfectly sa tisfied that in this part of the country there was no one who considered the revenues of the church were more than ne cessary for its purposes, or than its c i rcumstances requ i re d . He was ready to admit that there were many who perhai s with justice held different opinions as to the mode of that revenue's d;stribution ; but he would still insist that the neat majority did not look upon the amount of income as more than necessary for the maintenan. e of the establish ' ment. This he was certain was the opinion of those who considered the existence of the church a necessary Lnd de sirable object ; and of such he believed a great majority of the house to be composed. The landlords clearly had no right to the tithes. Their properties, no matter whether they were church of England men or dissenters, had been acquired or purchased subject to the impost. Their portion was nine-tenths ; upon the other tenth they had no claim. And he believed that no complaint with regard to that por tion had been made by dissenting landowners. The pro posed measure was calculated to obviate the objections which were made to one which he brought before the house in the last session. It was calculated to afford relief to the occupier of land in various ways. It would relieve him from the litigation of which in the present form tithes were so abundantly productive, and of the irritation which naturally followed. This in itself would be no little benefit. There was another species of relief of a pecuniary nature, which would be most advantageously felt by the owners and occupiers ofland. As thetithes were at present collected they interfered with the outlays of capital, and prevented the em ployment of labour. The dislike of the impost, because of the manner in which it was collected, and the vexation consequent on it, was proved by the circumstance that compositions had been entered into in many instances in which if the tithe had been drawn in kind the owners would have been losers. Indeed, those entering into the compositions paid more than the amount of their tithes, and therefore it was that the proposed measure Would be found one of relief. The other mode in which the measure would operate would be also found important by increasing the outlay of capital, and the employment of labour, which must certainly take place when the fear of increased pay ment for increased produce was removed. (Hear, hear. ) The plan which he proposed would yield to the owners of this property a full equivalent—not for the legal claim, but an equivalent founded on the customary payment, and what would be considered as fair and equitable. To strike a fair equivalent as regarded this sort of property, by founding the standard on legal right, would be almost im practicable. It would be impossible to point out the several modes by which circumstances varied its value. (Hear, hear.) Amongst these the most obvious were the distance of markets, the expense of carriage, and the com parative advantages of the soil. There was another matter very difficult to be ascertained—the expense of collecting. The opinion he held last year he still retained, and would found his standard upon what had been hitherto paid, and not on the present value of the land. The bill introduced last session was, he contended, right in principle, though he admitted in some points it was objectionable. It was calculated to be of service to those owners of tithe property who exacted their claims with the greatest severity, whilst at the same time it might most probably have operatedinju riously on those who were liberal and conceding. In an other way, too, the bill of last session would be liable to objection, inasmuch as it fixed the standard for ever by the present valuation of the lands, not taking into account any alterations which might take place, the result of which might render such a standard unfair in one event to the land owner, and in another to the owner of tithes. There were objections incident to the bill which he had previously proposed, but which in his present proposition he endea voured to avoid. The principle he would go upon was one which aimed at fixing the amount of tithe in proportion to the rent of the land, and if the rent fell, the tithe should fall in a similar degree. In stating that he would make the rent a criterion, he felt that the proposition might open the way to frauds, and as it was difficult by the rent to ascertain the real value of the land, he would propose that the owner, and not the occupier, should pay the tithe. When he said the rent s ho u ld be the standard, he did not mean the rateable value, but the actual value, which, in most instances could be ascertained by the rent. There still were objections, and it might be urged that rent and tithes did not bear exactly together. First a distinction would be drawn between arable land and that which was not arable ; but there would be no great difficulty in pro viding against this objection ; and in making the pro vision the house would be in a great degree assisted and directed by the Enclosure Bill. The tithe should be larger where the laud was arable, and lower where it was under grass. Another difficulty, and a much greater one lay in the way. The proportion of tithe was larger where the rent was low than where it was high; and pressed more heavily on those soils where more labour was expended than on those of richer-quality and greater produce. The principle ought to be, to grant the advantage to the poorer soils. It was necessary that he should define what he meant by arable land, and as such he contemplated all such land as had been broken up for five years. As he knew the people were generally desirous for a commutation of tithe, he had of himself circulated a series of questions, and had only ascertained by the replies to them, that he could not, as he had at first hoped, apply one scale generally to the tithe and rent through the en tire country ; in some parts it would cause an increase of 20 per cent., whilst in others it would occasion a reduc tion. The returns to his queries were not, to be sure, very accurate ; but they were such as to convince him of the impossibility of applying an unvarying rule. In consequence of this, the course he should be com pelled to adopt must differ in different parts of the country. He would have valuators in each county, to ascertain the value of the arable and pasture land, and make the average payment of the last five years the standard. That when thus valued, he would have the valuation laid before the quarter sessions, who would ascertain the pro portions, and then in each parish the particular tithe would have the-same proportion to the rent of the land which the whole tithe bore to the rent of the county. It had been objected, last year, that it would be difficult in such a commutation to include hops ; but in this proposition he would consider ground laid out under hops as in the nature of arable land. In this plan, too, it would be necessary to provide reference to a barrister, as an arbitrator. He had thus briefly stated the .general principles of his plan, and the house would be able to perceive that an objection which had been made to the bill of last year, on the ground of harsh ness in the collection, was done away with. He hoped they would concur with him in thinking, that no individual would feel any disadvantage arising from the present measure. In his plan he would not interfere with any existing right of moduses, though he would not now stay to explain in what way he avoided the interference. The measure which he now had the honour of proposing, was relieved from the difficulties which attended the bill of %last year. The objection that a fixed annual payment would, under some circumstances, absorb rent and all, was thus obviated, for here the tithe was only to be propor tionate to the rent. The bill further proposed to give a power of redemption, and vested in the tithe payer the right to demand from the impropriator, lay and clerical, the right of redeeming the tithe at 25 years' purchase. He took that as the standard whereby to enable the present possessor to enjoy the same income by vesting the money in the 4 per cents. The mode of payment should be regulated by a clerical commission, to which (as the matter related purely to church property) no one could object. The bishop, and those whom he nominated, should constitute that committee. In order to facilitate this commutatioh, he proposed, in case the tithe-payer did not find it convenient to raise the money in order to purchase the tithe at once, to allow him to make a charge on his land after the nature of a mortgage, paying 41. per cent. interest ; such interest, however, to be paid as a corn rent. This mortgage should not be subject to foreclosure, and should only be redeem able at the option of the borrower. With respect to lay im propriators, he had greater difficulties to overcome. In many instances it would not be very easy—in some not pos sible—for a person wishing to redeem the tithe to know who the right proprietor was. In such cases it would not be necessary to resort to a process which would involve certain legal expenses. The money must be paid into the Court of Exchequer, and only drawn from thence on satis factory proof of the ownership. These were the principles of the measure which he had to propose. He was quite aware that, in a measure of so complicated a nature—and complicated it necessarily must be—it would be diffi cult for the house to follow him accurately, so as at once and fully to understand the plan. Complicated, however, as he was aware it was, he believed that the chief cause of that complication was the difficulty of ascertaining in the first instance the value of the land. When that was once accomplished, he did not think there was anything to inter fere with the simple working of the measure. The taking of tithe as a part of rent was not a new proposition. It was one which was made when tithes were commuted in Scot land. But when tithes were commuted in that country, they were commuted on worse terms to the landowners than those now proposed. At that period the great feudal proprietors had got possession of all the vicarial tithes by grants from the Crown. An endeavour was made to recall those grants, and at last they came to this arrangement, that the proprietors of the land should pay to the feudal and lay impropriator of tithes one-fifth of the rent of the land, with power of redemption at nine years' purchase. Certainly from the great alteration which had taken place in the value of the land, and the small amount of rent paid then compared with that paid in the present day, the effect of such a mode of commutation was not not so disadvanta geous as might have been expected. To those gentlemen, however, who said that the Scotch system got rid of the tithes without a fair equivalent, he would say, that such was not the case, for even more than a fair equivalent had been given. He hoped and trusted that the effect of this measure would be generally to produce a redemption of tithes, and if such should happily be the case, he should consider it as one calculated to confer the greatest possible advantages on all classes of the community. (Hear, hear. ) p; it p b rie r to es r p s ee t t o to ind tb u e ce . pr t o h p e o m sitio to n n e o ff w ect be th fo i r s e Every possible facility s h ou ld b e g i ven t o th e l an d e d e e m b p o t o s n e . , re th d he had confined it simply to two resolutions—one de claring that the tithes should bear a certain proportion to the rent, that proportion to be ascertained in the different counties ; and another declaring that they might be redeemed on payment of twenty-five years' pur chase. These propositions were, in the first instance, sufficient, and on them he should ground his bill. He did not apprehend that there could exist any objection to their adoption. He would, before he concluded, mention that he felt great regret at not being able to accomplish ow hing. Most persons know that the collection of tithes ai present imposed a species of hardship on the class of reli gionists called Quakers, whose conscientious scruples would not permit them to pay tithes ; and who uniformly submit ted to the inconvenience of being distrained upon for pay- Tit( nt. He should have been . glad if possible to lif wet them from this inconven ience, hut he cou d not po s'bly accomplish it, for without making this measure com pulsory, it would be if no rvo. , uggestion ha I made to him which he thought v. ty and very fit to be introduced as a legislative enactment in some other mea sure, viz., to give the clergy now in possession of glob, lands the power of leasing them for a !onset term that they possessed at present. He was aw are that his state. ment had been very imperfect, but the bill which he in tended to introduce would supply hon. members with all the details. The noble lord concluded by moving reso lutions to the following effect : , Mist—That Inc coi;ction of tithes in England and Wal , • shall cease and determine. That, instead of tithes, the owner of tithe-land shall pay a fixe.i proport,on to the annual ral. I hereof to the tithe-owner; and that such proportion shall h( a•c rtained in the several counties " Secondly-- that a I parties liable to such tithe may redeem the same by the payment of a sum of money equal to 25 years pumhase Mr. BARING wished to ask the noble lord whether the clergy were to be rated to the poor-rate in these payments Lord ALTHORP said, that rent being diminished ii consequence of the existence of poor-rates, and tithes de pending on the rent, tithes were already diminished on ac count of the poor-rate. If, therefore, they were agaii rated to the poor-rate, they would be rated twice. (Hear. It was his intention that the payments should be mad, ate free. Mr. BARING was not surprised that the noble lord found great difficulty in the way of settling so complicate d a question—a question which, either directly or indirectly ; involved the interests of all classes in the state—nor conk he wonder that, under all circumstances, the noble lord wa. not enabled to bring forward a measure, in the first in stance, clear and satisfactory. As far as he was concernes he wished to postpone forming any opinion on the noble lord's bill until he had seen what it really was. It migh not be difficult to point out objections to any plan that might be submitted, but feeling, as every body must feel the extreme importance of settling this question, he hope( that hon. gentlemen would not be very nice in looking a' a measure which, whether they regarded it in a mora point of view, or in reference to its religious operation, o to its probable results on the agricultural interests of th country, was of the utmost and extremest importance. (Hear, hear, hear.) The noble lord had stated, an( he perfectly agre with him, that the property o the church, notwithstanding the prejudice that ha( gone abroad on that subject, was not more thai enough for her decent and proper maintenance. (Hear. ) Whatever opinions existed as to the propriety of its divi sion, or of the amount of what were called the sinecures of the church, it was fully agreed that the total amount war not more than was sufficient for the purpose. He was no' aware whether there were any returns before Parliament which set forth the revenues. It would, however, be highly desirable that such a return should be made, not that it would at all affect the decision of the question, for even if it were shown that a surplus existed, the landowner would still be bound to pay the tithe. The measure now proposed varied materially from that of last year, and cer tainly differed from what he expected after what appeared to be the general impression of the members of the agri cultural committee of last year. The impression of that committee, or at least the impression upon his mind was. that a valuation should be taken of the tithe in each, parish, and that commutation should take place on the footing of such valuation, with such deductions as it might be deemed consistent with the interests of the church to admit of. He hoped the noble lord would look thoroughly into the measure, and weigh well all its details. He should not object to the resolutions pro forma, but pro tested against being considered as bound or pledged by them. He regretted, too, that the measure was brought forward so late in the session, as they had but a very short time to consider a measure of such great importance, more especially one which would be likely to occupy some con siderable time in the other house, where -the clergy were more particularly represented. ( Hear. ) Mr. GREENE considered that in agreeing to, the house should not be held concluded by, the resolutions. The plan required much consideration, for in many in stances they would find as much difference between one parish and another as between one county and another. I He should be obliged to the noble lord to state how he would arrange as to the proportion of payments to the lay rector and the vicar. He was sorry that lie was called on. without due consideration, to affirm these resolutions. He would much rather that the bill should have been introduced in the first instance • and he certainly should not feel him self precluded from Lking any course which it might here after appear to him expedient to adopt. Lord AL THORP said it had been his object to avoid entering into details which could not yet be convenientl3 discussed, but which would be found to be provided for b 3 this bill. The resolutions would not pledge any hon: member to the bill, nor even to its principles. With re gard to the specific question of the hon. member, he won't say, that upon ascertaining the amount of tithes paid nothing could be more easy than to ascertain what propor tion was paid to the rector and what to the vicar, and the proportions would of course be observed in the payments. Mr. D. W. HARVEY feared that the noble lord hat' contrived to complicate the excellent principle of his bib with provisions of a very involved nature. The noble lon, had, he thought, involved himself in difficulties in conse quence of his having had recourse to voluntary communi cations, whereas, if he had trusted to his own business-like mind, the measure which he had produced would have beer much clearer and more satisfactory. What a complicated and expensive machinery was called for by the bill ! The 3 were to have valuers of counties, and valuers of parishes, and barristers as arbitrators, and what not. If the nobh lord wishes to arrive at the value of the tithes, whether oi a given property or of a whole county, or of a parish, lt.l him apply to any auctioneer whose name figured in the co lumns of a newspaper, and he would put him in a mode o: ascertaining the value of the tithes, great or small, arabl, or pasture, and the required number of years' purchase, it a very satisfactory manner, without any such complicate( system of valuation. (Hear.) He apprehended that thit bill would be shipwrecked by its honesty. ( 1 A laugh.) It did not recommend itself to any one branch of the com munity. The landlord would gain little by it. Fen gentlemen would be disposed to buy the right to tithe. fixed at their full value, and estimated at twenty -fly( years' purchase. (Hear.) The community would gait no benefit, for it was not even intimated that the 3 would get any surplus. The noble lord took frequei; occasion to repeat what had been so often said, that flit tithes of the country were not more than sufficient for the maintenance of the national church. Now this was mat. ter of opinion only. (Hear.) But why should it remain, matter of opinion ? Why should it not be matter of fact 7 A commission had for some time been sitting, which com mission had acted in a spirit of great intelligence. They had framed a seriewf questions, and he never read any ques tions more searchifig than those which they had propounded. They were under four heads, directed to bishops, rectors, corporations sole, and deans and chapters. 'There wen from 16 to 25 questions, and if honest returns had beer. made to them, the noble lord must have in his possession a body of evidence not only highly valuable, but which would at once prove his assertion if it were correct, and improve the generally prevailing opinion that the revenues of the national church (the property of which was not then under discussion) were much more than was sufficient for it: maintenance. Why should they at once close public ex pectation on this point ? He hoped that this important question would remain no longer matter of speculation, btu that the honk and the country would be supplied with tht information which would at once set it at rest. ( Hear. ) The noble lord had truly said that this was a matter in which the Dissenters took none other than a common in terest, whether tithe-owners or tithe-payers, but he war apprehensive that when the bill came to be more fully ex amined by these whom it affected, it would not be con sidered by any one of its recommendations that it protected the collection of the revenues of the church to their full and extreme value. (Hear. ) Sir ROBERT PEEL said he was quite satisfied that the noble lord was sincere when he said that he would not consider the house as pledged by the adoption of these re solutions, but he could not understand how the house could affirm these resolutions without being pledged to them, aid to the principle involved in them, for the resolutions not only contained the principle of restitution or specific pay ment of tithes, but even pledged them to the minutiae of pointing out the number of years at which tithes were to be purchased. If the resolutions were to be binding on no one, why should any details be inserted at all? If the noble lord must propose a resolution, on which to found a bill, why not content himself with a single resolution, begging leave to bring in a bill for the purpose of effecting the commutation of tithes upon fair principles ? It ap peared to be a principle of the Irish bill, that counties should form distinct territorial divisions, for the purposes o: tithe commutation, and the average of tithe in each count) was the average which was to prevail within each county. The resolution, however, did not go on to say that it should be made applicable to all the parishes, though such he presumed was the intention. As the resolutions did not go into full detail, he saw no reason why they should go into any detail at all ; and he would ask the noble lord whether he was acting wisely in saying the house should not be bound by its own resolution, which was, in fact, saying that the resolutions of that house were no more than so much waste paper. It was hardly fair to call upon the house at once to adopt these resolutions. Several points must be clearly understood, before any man could form an accurate judgment upon them. What connection was there between the payment of tithes and the territorial division of the kingdom into counties ? What would the conse s a q n u d en t c h e e s o r f e tl n i t i s w s o y ui st d em be b f e o d to ?un The counties. In Devonshire and Kent, for instance, the pro portion which the tithe bore to the value of the land was proportion very d different betweent in t di h effnteirt different much larger than in many other counties. Now, the effect of the noble lord's bill would seem to be to fix the propor tion as it now existed in these counties for ever. This he did not think right, for it by no means followed that the present ratio should remain unaltered. The noble lord had stated the manner in which he intended to deal with ga rishes in which moduses were established, and he cold( easily understand that with regard to fixed payments, ii would be_possib'e for the noble lord to wake such a ref. u lation. But the noble lord had said noth ng about the cis tinction between great tithes and small tithes. Was it • ant that land now subject to small tithes to a certain mount should pay tithe contribution on an average of tk e great as well as the small tithes of the county? ..,uppose adjoining parishes, one liable to great tithes, the other to small tithes only, in what way would those parishes here after contribute to the tithe owner ? Was the small tithe parish to pay as much as the other? If so, this bill would certa nly give very little satisfaction to its parishioners. how too, did the noble lord propose to deal with those cases where the title to tithes was contested? Suppose a case where tithe of milk was contested—how was that to be decided ? It was said these payments were not to be subjected to poor-rates. Now the sums which clergymen would receive under the bill by way of redemption were I- I ,wed to be invested in land. As a necessary consequt me sat land should also be free from poor-rate. This, how ever, would have a most curious operation, since it would then be for the advantage of the clergyman to per cla Ise that land. which paid the highest poor-rate, the v due and rent of which were of course proportion ably reduced. Nor was it to be imagined that the other i ihabitants of the parish would regard with coin ,Jaaceney a measure which would thus tend to in .ease their burdens. These, it was true, were points of Nail, but they were points on which every man ought to hive clear knowledge before he was called upon to affirm iese resolutions. He agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. lazing) that they ought not to be too critical—but they sight at least to have a fair interval for considering a mat tar of so much importance. He would put this qualifica- Lon upon the proposition of his hon. friend, that though they ought to be anxious for a speedy settlement of this iuestion, yet that they should endeavour to settle it in such a manner as to avoid the necessity for a future reconside mt.on of it. No one knew the value—no one could no highly appreciate the valise of a voluntary settlement of the question. The bill was to provide for the establish- , sent of an ecclesiastical corporation in each county, with Bishop at its head, which was to receive money pay ments equivalent to the amount of tithe. He did net .hink that, with such a corporation, they would have it in their power to give great facilities for the voluntary Nam mtation of tithe. Instead of valuing and fixing a rate for whole county, if they appointed valuers and arbitrators t -ho would act between the tithe-payer and tithe-owner on air principles, and whose character would insure them eneral confidence with this corporation, to watch the ge eral interests of the Church, and with the incumbent and he tithe-payer, each watching his own interest, such arbitrators would have it in their power, with ver y little d.fficulty, to arrange terms of redemption which should be satisfactory to all parties concerned, and the great advan !age of such a systeni of commutation would be, that it was voluntary, and that each particular case was decided an its own circumstances. He did not wish to prejudge, but he protested against being bound by these resolutions, ether in detail or in principle. Lord ALTHORP said, if the forms of the house would have allowed him, he would have been happy to ha v e orought in the bill at once ; but it was necessary to pro dose in committee the resolution on which his bill was to be founded. The house did not pledge itself on those reso lutions, but merely that a bill founded on them should be brought in. With regard to the great and small tithes, a similar arrangement might be made with regard to the m as that to which he had already alluded with regard to moduses and fixed payments. A deduction pro tanto would be made from the proportion due from the land liable to small tithes. We also understood the noble lord to say, that he should have no objection to re-consider that part of his proposition which went to exempt land, the property of the Church, from the payment of poor-rates ; and also to adopt words in his resolutions of a more general nature than those in which they were at present couched. Sir R. INGLIS said a few words, but the noise occa sioned by members and strangers leaving the house pre vented us from catching their import. Mr. HUME expressed the deep regret with which he had listened to the proposition of the noble lord, which proposition, he was sure, would not give satisfaction to any party out of that house. One of his principal objec tions to the proposed measure was, that it did not strike at the root of the existing evil, namely, to compel the land to pay tithe in proportion to the increasing value which the_ proprietor or holder of the soil was capable of giving to it. Again, the payments ought to be in proportion to the qua lity of the soils, and on that point the noble lord ought to look at the course which was adopted in Belgium, where the soil was rendered liable .to the payment of tithe ac cording to quality, land of different qualities being sub fected to the payment of different amounts of tithe. He denied, also, that there were any documents before the house which bore the noble lord out in the assertion, ,hat there was no person who could assert that the exist mg payments of tithes were greater than those to whom whey were made were entitled to. He could assure he noble lord, that there were many persons who did .ntertain that opinion. Before they proceeded to le rislate on the- subject, they ought to have the returns which were to be made by the ecclesiastical commissioners, Jr other information of a similar nature. In his opinion, the suggestion of a voluntary commutation, made by the right hon. member for Tamworth, was a very good one ; and he thought that some bill, for the purpose of further .ng and giving effect to a general commutation of that de cnption might be advantageously passed in the present session. Lord ALTHORP denied the validity of the argument Jf the hon: member for Middlesex with •respect- to the operation of the proposed plan in preventing the applica .ion of capital to land. If any one thought that by such an application of capital he could increase the value of his Land, he had the option of redeeming his tithes at that low fate which would not interfere with such a proceeding. Mr. HUME observed, that he had in his possession a petition from the market gardeners in the neighbourhood ,f London, praying to be protected from the evil respect ng tithes which he had just described, and which the noble urd's proposition would perpetuate. As it was, nearly very shilling which they laid out in the improvement of heir land was, or would be, lost to them. Mr. ESTCOURT was at a loss to know why the noble ,ord could not merely move for leave to bring in a bill for .he commutation of tithes. That was a plan which would ,ledge no one to any particular proposition. There was mother point on which he confessed he laid great stress ; .ie meant the recommendation of his right hon. friend the .nembcr for Tamworth, with reference to the voluntary commutation of tithe. He (Mr. Estcourt) held that to e of all modes of proceeding the best, and that it would be ,he only way of avoiding a variety of anomalies and evils v;hich must attend every other eotuse. lie trusted, there fore, that the noble lord would introduce into his bill clauses for encouraging and effecting the voluntary com mutation of tithes. Lord ALTHORP said that in the first instance he had intended to comprehend the voluntary commutation of tithes in his measure, but the information which he had subsequently received led him to think it desirable that die , commutation should be imperative. He still believed, however, that voluntary commutation might, to a certain. extent, be advantageously resorted to. As to what had, :alien from the hon.onember for Middlesex with respect to the market gardeners, it should be recollected that the tenant of improved land would not have to pay tithes upon it. (An Hon. Member observed that he would have to iiay an increased rent.) So he would if no tithes were payable by any one. Sir R. PEEL again urged the expediency of consider ing whether the principle of a voluntary arrangement be tween the payers and the claimants of tithes might not he advantageously resorted to. he acknowledged, that if the expense were to tall upon the immediate parties, that might be an obstacle. But if commissioners of high character were appointed by government, if the expense were borne in some way or other by the public, and if parties were ►nvited to form such an arrangement as might atiect a per-. mament commutation of tithes, with the power of redemp. tion, he sincerely believed that great progress might be made in effecting so desirable an object. It might be en, acted, that in parishes where difference of opinion existed on the subject, the decision of the majority should bind the minority ; and, also, that if in the course of two years a voluntary commutation could not be effected, power should then be given to render the commutation compulsory. he trusted, therefore, that if the noble lord should find any. difficulty in passing this bill which he now proposed, in, the present session, he would introduce another mea sure, recognising and sustaining the principle of voluntary commutation. Mr. BERNAL (the chairman of the committee) then proceeded to read the amended resolution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as we have before endeavoured to gk. it, when Dr. LUSHINGTON said that, as one of the commis, sioners appointed to inquire into the subject, he was anxious to say a few words. He would not confine him self to speaking of canons and prebends, but he would refer to the whole body of the clergy. Certain returns were moved for and ordered by the house; but many of the Jergy refused to give information, and hence the returns ,could not be fully digested so as to •be placed upon the table of this house. It. also unfortunately happened that several of the queries of the commissioners were mistaken, and hence, it was impossible for the commissioners to come to any decided opinion. But while he was now addressing ,he house, he believed that the necessary returns were in the hands of the respective diocesans ; and no dcrabt whe n the returns were complete, the bishops would make returns to the commissioners, and the commissioners would lose no . time in laying them before the house. Here he would only add, that from all he had heard, and all the returns he had seen, the whole revenue of the church was not too great for the respectable maintenance of the clergy of the established church, although the inequality of the present distribution of that revenue might be a matter of grave consideration. Even if the bishops were exterminated to-morrow, or deans and chapters got rid of, yet would he say that the sums received by the parochial clergy were scarcely suffi cient—at all events not more than sufficient for their decent maintenance. It would be premature to enter into the proposed measure of the noble lord at the present moment —it was adinitted, however, upon all hands, that a com mutation of tithes had now become a measure of aLsolute necessity. He was quite aware that ten years ago such a reposition would have sound but few supporters ; btu now le thought it vt•as in unison with the opinions of the pko ple, and sure he was, at the same time, that sine stich measure was actually necestary. He dei recated al at :a valuation. Let an estimated account be taken of the