The Sun. — London, England, 1831-08-06 00:00:00

could not fail to strike every man that there must be some ground of partiality, which induced Ministers to favour that part of the country. He begged also to remark to those who bad hitherto voted in the majorities, that this was not a question in voicing the principle of the Bill. That bad been al ready decided upon previous questions ; and it now became the numerous supporters of the Bill to consider how they could make it as perfect and acceptable as possible, founded upon equality au I justice. He did not appeal to the ma jority, therefore, as they were strong to be merciful, but as they were strong to be reasonable. What he had said pf Gateshead applied even more strongly to South Shields, the population of which was only 5,865 souls. It, there fore, b. came necessary for Ministers, in order to get a suf ficient inhabitancy, to add to South Shields the Chapelry of Weston with 7,600 inhabitants ; though why South Shields should not have been added to Gateshead he could not divine. The population of the three neighbouring places stood thus:— South Shields B,SSS North Shields B,4tis Tylieinouth 9,000 Total —20,090 They were identified in interest, in commercial pursuit, and in locality ; and, according to the principle Ministers had elsewhere applied, all three might to have been satisfied with one Member. The population of the town of Tyne mouth being only 9,000, those who framed the schedule had been compelled to include the whole parish, which gave a total of 24,000 souls. This favour seemed to have been shown because it was in the fortunate county of Durham ; for, in the case of Bolton, Bradford, and several others not so situated, Ministers had expressly refused to include the parishes. To the places themselves he had no objec tion ; on the contrary, he wished them to have their fair share of representation ; but he could not consent that Ministers should thus work up and manufacture (if lie might so say) places into boroughs, because it suited their own views.—(Cheers.) Lord ALTHORP admitted, that in the enfranchising part of the Bill, Ministers had taken into account not only population but other circumstances. One of the points they had considered was the degree of representation pos sessed by the various interests of the State, which would account for the omission of some places in Lancashire and tie giving to a few very large towns only one Member. It had seemed to Ministers that one class of the commu nity—the shipping interest—was not adequately repre sented ; and this defect they had endeavoured to remedy by giving representatives to large assemblies of people en gaged in commerce and shipping. For this reason Whitby had been selected, although the population was comparatively small; and for the same reason Sunderland had been admitted, including Bishops Wearmouth and Monks Wearmouth. A similar rule had been applied to South Shields and Tynemouth. It was quite clear why the Hon. Gentleman had so often mentioned Durham ; but he ought to have known that Tynemouth, upon which he had remarked, was in the county of Northumberland. As to Gateshead, it had not been added to Newcastle, because Ministers had in no one instance proceeded upon that plan ; and the Hon. Gentleman could produce no town as large and flourishing as Newcastle, to which an appendix of 11,000 souls had been made. It had been insinuated that the whole of these arrangements proceeded from a feeling of partiality towards a Noble Lord con nected with the county of Durham. If it were meant that that Noble Lord would possess any influence on the elee• tion of the new Metnbers, it must be an entire mistake in places so populous : it would not have been worth his Noble Friend's while to make such a suggestion, and Mi nisters, if they had suspected a job, would never have dreamt of lending themselves to it. Mr. GOULBURN, without at all meaning to impute improcer motives, must say that the singular course adopted by Ministers naturally led to not very favourable conclusions, He hail no objection whatever to give addi tional influence in the House to the shipping interest, but he contended that Kingston-upon-Hull ought rather to Lave been selected by them than Tynemouth. The town ship of Sculcoates contained a population of 11,000, and Hull itself, of which it was a suburb, 32,000 ; yet ;Ministers, instead of giving another and a distinct Member to Sculcoates, had united it to Hull, which was only to have two Members. The of Hull and Sculcoates, and of Newcastle and Gateshead, seemed to him parallel. The Noble Lord referred to the importance of Shields as a seaport, to justify the riving it two representatives ; but he ought to remember that the Metnbers for New castle had not been very anxious to bold that seaport up as so important, but they had endeavoured to show that their constituent; ought not to have been deprived of their pri vileges for the benefit of Shields.—(Hear.) When the Custom-house was about to be built at Shields, they in sisted that the Customs ought to bo taken at Newcastle, because, although the ships in which the goo& were carried out were built at Shields, yet they, and the property with which they were freighted, belonged to Newcastle. He thought his Hon. Friend had answered the argument of the Noble Lord, and bad shown that there was nothing in the circumstances of Shitlds to justify the proposition of his Majesty's Ministers. Mr. HODSON begged the indulgence of the House while he should say a few words in answer to the obser vations of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. The greater part of the speech of that gentleman had been oc cupied in showing that the repeeeentation was distributed in different counties with unjustifiable inequality. Ile (Mr. Hodson) did net think that an important considera tion in the present discussion ; but if he did so, it was easily shown that the county of Durham had not, when compared with the rest of England, an undue share of the representation. But he thought that the principle in volved in the question before the House was the extension of the franchise to important towns hitherto unrepresentehe Mini d. The Right Hon. Ge ntlemen opposite s that t sters protoaed to give two Members to Shields, contain ing (as he said) only a population of 33,000, whilst only one was to be given to Bolton, with a population of 43,000. In ascribing such a population to Bolton, the Right Hon. Gentleman must have taken the census of 1831, whibt he compared it with the population of Shields in 1821. Aa to Sunderland, it was the fourth port of England in point of tonnage, and the second port hi the coal trade. He denied the accuracy of the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement respecting the close connec tion of Tynemouth and Shields. One of the Right Hon. Gentleman's arguments was that the merehandize be longed to Newcastle, although the ships, in which it was carried, were built at Shields. But if the Customhouse ought to be at Newcastle, because the tnerchatidize be longed to Newcastle, was that a mason why Shields, an important place in itself, was not to he represented ? When the Right Hon. Gentleman was eniieaveuring to pros'e the identity of North and South Shields, ire said that tle river Tyne was a bond al' union between them— that it waited rather than separated them; he forgot to mention that: the effect of this bond of union was a wide boundary between two counties, and that North Shields was in NortbumberLand, and Fs - oath Shields in Durham. The interests of Gateshead were distinct from those of Newcastle (as much so ae the interests of Salford from those of Manchester), and earl of them contained a very large population. With regard to fire case of Hull and Sculcoates, it should be remembered, thee in the town of Hull most of the houses were of an inferior class, and that the more wealthy persons having property or business there, reside in Seulcoatea. But the case of Gateshead was quite different from that. The persons who owned tee manufactories and warehouses in that manner, abo re sided there, and had no connection with Newcastle. Ile thought, therefore, that Gateshead was fairly entitled to have its own representative. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS contended, that Gateshead was nothing more than a suburb of Newcastle. He was sorry that the Right Hon. Gentleman below him did not meats to divide the Committee. If the sense of the Com mittee were taken, however few there might be to sup port the Right lion. Gentleman, he (Mr. Douglas) would be one. Indeed i.e was already strongly inclined to insist upon a divitien himself. Mr. KNIGHT was so far from imputing improper mo tives to those gentlemen who supoorted the Bill before the Committee, that he would not allow himself to entertain a suspicion that they were actueted by base motives, unless upon the fullest proofs. 'When he considered that one Member was to be given to Gateshead, one to South Shields, one to Sunderland, and one to North Shields— (Cries of no, no)—it was so in effect—when he considered, at the same time, that two additional Members were given to the county of Durham, and that the freeholders in the towns to be enfranchised would no longer be allowed to vote at elections for the county, he must remind the Com mittee of the fact, that when the freeholder the town wou ld be subtracted front the county — of constituency, s maller number of electors would choose four lilet; a Members t h a n hitherto chose two.—(hear.) Il e contraste d t h e case of Gateshead with that of Merthyr Tydvil. Ac cording to the census of 1821 (to which they were too often referred ) , th e populaticn of Merthyr Tydvil was 79,000, while that of Gateshead was only 11,767. Now Gateshead, situated in a district `add!' already re bed numero us represe n tativee, was to have iepre sentative for itself; whilst Merthyr Tydvil, situated in the most central part of the iron inanufactturiangsitillil trict of England, in a district, too, having bu number of representatives, was not to have a Member. q'hat town stood upon the borders of ;Monmouth shire, Biecknock, and Glamorganshire, of which countie s, under the new scheme, the totality of the r irpreseritaton would be only nine Wry-hrs. Tie would ask how werel the interests of the iron manufacture to find a due share in the representation under these new enactments ? Al though the population of Merthyr Tydvil appeared, by the returns of 1821, to he no more than between 17,000 and 18,000 (but if the suburbs were taken in, the whole' amount would be nearly 20,000), the population, accord ing to the returns of 1831, amounted to 26,000. In stead of giving that place a representative, his Majesty's Ministers threw it in as a paltry addition to a distant sea port, which had already its representatives. It was un necessary to speak of the injustice done to Cardiff itself by the new arrangement.—(Hear, heir.) For these reasons he could not consent to give a Member to the suburb of Newcastle. Mr. WOOD did not wish to prolong the discussion, hut he wished to state one or two facts to correct the stitements of Hon. Gentlemen opposite respecting Gates head and Newcastle. Those places were in different parishes, were under different jurisdictions, and were even situated in different counties.—(Hear, hear.) But no one could say respecting Hull and Sculceates, where the one ended and the other began—(Hear, hear)--and more over (what was still more important), the assessment for the poor-rates was the same in the two places. As to what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said respecting the deficient representation of Glamorganshire, he would en'y remark that Durham would have only one Member foi ~...-.... every 34,000 inhabitants, whilst Glamorgan would have one for every 29,000. Sir H. lIARDINGE rose reluctantly on that (pet tion, on account of predilections for the county of Dur ham. He had represented the city for several years in that House, and he would be anxious, in the present struggle for representatives, to obtain a large share for that county. He was glad that two Members had been given to Sunderland. That was no more than the fair distri bution. No one could doubt that the town of Durham ought to retain its two Members. He thought it was only reasonable that South Shields should have one repre sentative. But although be had as strong a desire to in ' crease the representation of Durham as an Hon. Member opposite showed on the preceding night to add to that of Staffordshire, he must say, that Gateshead was no more than a suburb, and that it had no right to send a Member to that House.—(Hear.) Mr. SADLER did not know upon what system of cal culation the Hon. Member opposite proceeded. An HoN. AIEMBER, said that Gateshead was in a se parate parish and county, and under a separate jurisdiction front Newcastle. It had a very large population, its manufactures were considerable, and it was wholly inde pendent of Newcastle. The statements made respecting that manor by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite were taken from hearsay only. Sir H. HARDINGE happened to know the circum stances of Gateshead front his own observation, as he had canvassed the whole manor several times. He had not _ had indeed the advantage of dining there in public with the Hon. Member who spoke last, and of making a most re markable speech there. lie was sure he would consult the good taste of the House more by not alluding par ticularly to a speech which was made there at a public dinner. He was sure, however, that if he chose to refer to that speech, he should s tti,fy the Committee as to what was the sort of respectability which Gateshead possessed. He repeated that the place was a suburb of an inferior class. The Hors. AlEmurn (to whom the last speaker had re plied) said that the statements of the Hon. and Gallant Baronet sufficiently proved that he knew very little about the place. The experience of the Gallant Baronet had been confined to the three or four times when he can vassed there. But in estimating the value of his obser vation on those three or four occasions, the Committee would bear in mind that be canvassed, not the great body of the inhabitants or the freeholders, but the few freemen of the city of Durham who resided there, and were very little connected with Gateshead. _ ..... ..... Mr. CHATOR was understood to express surprise that any one who knew Gateshead would say that it was a mere subui b. Mr. PRAED opposed the giving a Member to that suburb. He considered the case of I-lull and Sculcoates quite parallel. Mr. STUART WORTLEY said, that although I e had a deep interest in the coal trade, from which was de rived all the importance which Hon. Gentlemen attributed to Gateshead, yet he would maintain that it had not always been independent of Newcastle, and that it was not en titled to a separate representation. Rochester the Ministers bad united to Chatham, though these places had separate jurisdictions ; and, therefore, that Gateshead had a sepa rate jurisdiction from Newcastle could not be argued by the Ministers as a reason for not uniting them. Portsmouth and Portsea were similarly situated. The population of Portsmouth was to be overwhelmed by the population of Portsea—the latter having 35,000, and the former only 19,000. This argument, therefore, would apply to Gateshead as well as to Portsmouth ; Gateshead and New castle had the same trade and the same interests. There was no difference between them, and they ought not to have separate Members. Sir C. WETHERELL said, that there was a determi nation laid down that Gateshead should have a Member ; and coute qui coute Gateshead was to have a Member.— They were retaining Gateshead in the Bill in direct oppo sition to their own principles; and such Ministerial and Parliamentary audacity, such numerical boldness, he had never before witnessed. Gateshead was the violet of the Bill, to borrow a phrase of an Hon. Friend of his, but he meant to say nothing of its perfume ; for it was non re dolet see! °let --(A laugh.) It was either a case of par tiality or gross ignorance. He would allow the gentle men ,opposite to take their choice between these two, but in either ca l / 4 e they were to blame. It would be of little consequence if this Bill were to be only a prospectus of a Constitution, anti not that final measure which it was described to be. It was said that Gateshead was a srnal place, but the inns were probably good, as he remembered something of a speech delivered there, which was not de livered at the King's Head, or the Crown, or Sceptre, or the Mitre, or any one with a similar symbol. There were parts of the Bill which the majority regarded as unjust, but which they resolved to support, unjust though they were, because it was the Ministerial measure. Even the Hon. Baronet (the Member for Westminster), who had been 35 years in Parliament, and boasted of his inde pendence, even be had declared that he would support the Bill, though he disapproved of part of it. It was useless to divide against the clause when the majority predestined them to defeat. Capt. STANHOPE supported the motion, and thought he was warranted in doing so, by Gateshead having 11,000 inhabitants. Mr. WEYLAND was not pledged one way or another, :rod he had heard nothing which could justify him in voting for Gateshead, and he would, therefore, give his cordial support to the motion for excluding it. Those gen tlemen who were pledged to support the Bill would not, he was sure, give their support to those parts of it which were not just. Lord GRA.NVILLE SOMERSET said Glamorgan, and the county he represented, had made complaints to the Minister of not being safilciently represented under the Bill. They were not so fortunate as the county of Dur ham. He hoped the coal-fields of the south and west w ould receive as much from the Noble Lord's opponents as the coal-fields to the north. Sir 11. lIARDINGE said lie had heard no reason why Gateshead should receive an additional Member, and should riot be united to Newcastle, while Cardiff was to be united to Alerthyr-Tidvil, at twenty-five miles distance, and had a population of 30,000. Around this seat of our manu factures, there were 180,000 people, as lie was informed, unrepresented. He did not understand, therefore, why an additional Member was to be given to Gateshead, while an additional Member could not be given to that part of the country. T iliLze was no part of the Bill so objectionable, as this of giving a Idanber to Gateshead. Lord ALTH0111 ) thought he bail already given suffi cient IT:lion for including Gateshead in the schedule ; and, if they were pot satisfactory to the Hon. Baronet, he could not help that. Sir M. W. RIDLEY stated, that the two towns were separate; and he could assure the House, that the people of Newcastle would not begrudg.e the power it was pro posed to give to Gateshead. There was not any other town in Durham so well entitled to have a Member as Gateshead. Itz thought the importance of the town de manded a representative; ,-,epd if it acquired one, he would be returned independent of any improper influence, and he would be the representative of the inhabitants. Sir ROBERT FEEL did not suppose that the people of Newcastle would object to having three Members.— 'Hear, hear.) Newcastle would be the last place to complain of this additional honour. What did the Hon. Baronet tell them ? Why that be represented Gateshead, and that he would be shorn of part of his beams if he no longer represented Newcastle. Tire lion. Baronet was the representative of Gateshead.—(Hear, hear.) There leunitedwas no pretence whatever for giving a new Member to Gateshead. Ne : vcastle had only 33,000 inhabitants, and Gatesh ea d on l y 11,000. Th ey were c l ose together ; 7 they Ss ell in trade, e system trad ba landtlierefo o re f tlieyiglitl)e included in irepresentation. When they were about to disfranchise half the boroughs monstrous in the kingdom, it was most s t range an d hear the Noble Lord talk of the ancient rights of New castle as a reason fur preserving its f ranc hi se unaltered and unimpaired. When they were about to sluice all tire small boroughs that were not (I;s'ranehied by voters from the neighbourhood, when that even was not to be done by Parliament, but by a sort of riding Com mission—a Quarter-Master-General ; and when they were by Commissioners and Deputies disfranchising voters in all the boroughs that were reserved, it wa. to hint most extraordinary that a respect for the rights of the people should be assigned as one of the reasons for not uniting Gateshead and Newcastle.—(Hear.) He was not aware that it would be necessary to divide on any one place of schedule D ; but on this place he was de termined to divide. Ne must object to including Gates head, while Chelsea with its 46,000 inhabitants was e x eluded.—(Hear.) If he stood alone he would divide against including Gateshead in the schedule.—(Hear, " Question, question.) Mr. D. HARVEY, after contrasting the population and importance of Merthyr Tydvil with that of Gateshead, proceeded to ridicule the course adopted by the Opposition on this occasion. They seemed, for the first time, to have made the discovery, if he was to judge from their proposition with respect to Merthyr Tydvil, that the 1331 was not sufficiently jacobinicat, and not halt enough demo cratical.—(A laugh.) Why, they now exclaimed, refuse a Member to Merthyr Tydvil, with a population of 34,000 persons? Was this, then, the result of the cogitations of the Cabinet at Pall-mall?—(A laughs.) Was this the plan which they had determined to propound? After more than a summer month spent in deliberation, was this the oozings of their design ?—( A laugh.) Here was population taken as the basis of representation by the defenders of New Sarum. On what ground, then, he would ask, did they contend against the dissolution of the boroughs in schedules A and B? and why, he would ask, if they had determined to broach this, their new plan of Reform, did they waste so many evenings in pronouncing funeral orations over the bodies of the slain?—(Hear, and laugh ter, with significant cheers from the Opposition.) If this was their course, and their intention, why had they ex pended so much argument in opposition to the destruction of the system of nomination ?—(A laugh.) He was aware that for the purposes of oratory, it was a very inconvenient thing that a Member should be compelled to confine him self to the mere question put from the chair.—(Cheers and laughter from the Opposition.) Ile knew this well ; hot in the debates on the Bill, every step they had taken furnished new ground for declamation, and the topics for the speeches of the Hon. Members were inereased by the progress of disfranchisement. The boroughs of schedule A furnished matter for lamentation and illustration in speaking on schedule B; and so they might expect it would he to the very conclusion of the Bill.—(hear.) The Hon. Member concluded by expressing his opinion, that the wealth, respectability, and number of the popula tio❑ of Gateshead fully justified the proposition of the Go vernment. Sir EDWARD SUGDEN said that the Hon. Member had delivered himself of one of those hackneyed speeches of vulgar abuse with which the House had been so often favoured in the course of the debates on the Bill.— ( Hear.) It was not his intention to detain the House for many minutes; but he could not avoid observing that the other side placed themselves in rather a ludicrous situa tion, when they asserted they could not believe the Oppo sition were sincere in any proposition consistent with the principles of the Bill, because it was unreasonable.— (Hear.) Tkere were two points, however, to which he wished shortly to draw their attention. The Noble Lord and the framers of the Bill had repeatedly declared that flw, and those connected with them, never were parties to the cry of " the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill ;" and they had also as repeatedly declared that it was their object to make the measure before the House final and satisfactory to all parties. Now he believed that six or seven speakers, one after the other, declared last night that they knew the Bill was not to be final; now they did not wish it to be final ; and the Hon. Member for Westminster had distinctly declared that no arrange• ments, with respect to the institutions of a great country like this, could be final. Now he (Sir E. S.) charged the Government with giving encouragement to declara tions of this kind, and with adopting a course which was likely to make the measure anything but final. It had been said over and over again by Members, supporters of the Government, that they postponed their objec tions to many parts of the Bill, merely because they wished to accelerate its progress ; and they had even gone so far as to admit that they waived their objections for the present, and postponed their propositions for more exten sive changes to another and better opportunity.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Westminster even declared, in order to stay all discussion, that there was no clause in the Bill so trifling that opposition to it might not endanger the whole measure. —(Hear.) And yet, in the face of all this, and with the knowledge th it the measure was not to be final, the Members of the Government had called on their supporters to pass it without inquiry or discussion.— (" No, no," and hear.) He would ask whether the Mem ' hers of that House had not been called on to suspend their judgments, and abandon all inquiry, in order that the Bill might be passed more speedily through that House.— (Hear, hear, and " No.") He would not, however, pursue that subject further at present. They were now trying the Government on their own principles with respect to Gateshead and Merthyr Tydvil ; and when the House heard that Newcastle, which was to return two Members, formed, it might be said, but one town with Gateshead, or, at least, was connected with it by a bridge, while Merthyr Tydvil was full twenty-five miles from Cardiff, to which it was to be joined for the purposes of representation, he thought they would confess that the present wag a case well cal culated to try the question of the fairness of that division of representation which the Government professed their desire to preserve.—(Hear.) Lord ALTHORP said the reason why the Government drew a distinction between the case of Gateshead and Merthyr Tydvil was this, that Merthyr Tydvil was situ ited in Wales, where the system of contributary boroughs had always prevailed, and which was so continued with respect to other places in the schedule. With respect to the ob servations of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on the sub ject of the Bill being final, although they bad not much to do with the borough of Gateshead, he would merely oh. serve, that the Government were anxious to make the Bill final, and they had offered no other opposition to the dis cussion of its merits than by requesting its supporters not to endanger its success by a number of different proposi tions intended to effect the same object. If they had re commended harmony on these points, the reaso❑ for it might perhaps be found in die fact of their being opposed by a set of gentlemen who were guided in their resistance to the Bill by party arrangements, without reference to its merits, and wishing, as the Government did, to carry the measure they had framed, they had undoubtedly expressed a wish to avoid the discussion which might endanger it.— ( Hear, hear.) They had, however, attended to every , suggestion, and endeavoured to comply with every ar rangement, which could make the Bill satisfactory to all around them.—(Hear.) He had said thus much because the Hon. and Learned Gentleman asserted that the Go. vernment were abandoning their declarations, and that they did not wish to snake the present Bill final.—(Hear.) Lord JAMES STUART said his constituents of the borough of Cardiff had good reason to complain when they found themselves likely to be joined to the inhabitants of Merthyr Tydvil, a place 25 miles distant from them ; and that too on no better reason, he had heard, than that they were situate in the principality of Wales.—(Hear, hear.) The town of Cardiff had upwards of 6,000 inhabitants, and 360 ten-pound householders. Cowbridge, which was to be joined with it, had upwards of 60 ten-pound house holders—Llandaff, 19 or 20—making in all 450 ten pound voters, without those of Merthyr Tydvil; and when it was recollected, that in places like Caine and Morpeth there was barely the number of inhabitants above 4,000, and that they were to retain two' Members, he ; thought the people of Cardiff had good reaso❑ to consider themselves aggrieved. He had come down to the House with a prejudice against Gateshead, created by circum stances with which the Members of the House were not familiar, but he had heard much to alter his opinion.— He hoped, however, that the Government would take the case of Cardiff into its consideration, and allots; his consti tuents the exercise of their privileges, unfettered by a junc tion with Merthyr Tydvil.—(Hear, bear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that although there was an apparent hardship in the case of Merthyr Tydvil, still it should be recollected by the Noble Lord that the 13i11 gave two additional Members to the representation of Glamorganshire ; and when it was also recollected that the county bad only 100,000 inhabitants, and that it would then possess four representatives, lie thought its inhabitants could not complai❑ much of their want of a due proportion of Members. With respect to Gateshead, he could only say, that its wealth, population and com merce, formed a foil justification for placing it among the places in Schedule D. It had been asked if it could be expected that the present measure would be a final one? That would of course depend upon circumstances. If it were found to work well then it would be desirable that it should be final ; but, on the contrary, if it were found not to work well, its present supporters would not wish that it should be considered a final measure.— (Hear, hear.) For himself, it appeared to him that the Bill would give a greater weight to the interests which were entitled to it, while at the same time it would in no way endanger any of the valuable institutions of the country. Mr. STEPHENS, adverting to what had been stated in the course of the debate as to the supposed interest of a Noble Lord, a member of the Cabinet, in Gateshead, de- nied that the Noble Lord had any such inter,* aq that alluded to. • Lord F. OSBORNE had not imputed any personal mo tive to the Noble Lord in question. What he had said was, that it did so happen that the counties with which Cabinet Ministers were connected had a greater share of the spoliation occasioned by the Bill than any others. Sir GEORGE MURRAY, adverting to what the Noble Paymaster of the Forces had said as to the probability or improbability of the the Bill's being a final measure, de clared that he did not believe the Bill would be a final measure, because he was persuaded that it contained within itself the seeds of its own dissolution. He main tained that great injustice was done to Scotland, by leaving many considerable towns and cities without representation. He should certainly vote against the present proposition, because he was of opinion that Gateshead was sufficiently represented by Newcastle. A MEMBER (whose name we were unable to learn) thought Wales had been treated with justice, and de fended Ministers from the imputations which bad been cast upon them. Sir JOHN MALCOLM vindicated the const►tuency of those who, having opposed the disfranchisement of the former part of the Bill, now opposed the enfranchisement of the present part of it. He would vote against giving a Member to Gateshead, from his conviction that there were many places in England, the population and opulence of which gave them much greater pretensions to be re presented. Mr. DUNDAS assigned as a reason for voting against giving a Member to Gateshead, that it was not proposed to give a Member to Perth. Mr. C. PELIIAM said a few words against the motion. —(Loud cries of question, question.) Mr. BARING said, he had never before heard a Minis try, however powerful, propound to Parliament an import ant proposition, and then not listen to any arguments ad duced against it. They might as well adopt the course which their organs of the Press recommended to them, and pass the measure at once without further consideration. The Hon. Gentleman here took occasion to censure the manner in which, in some of the papers, espousing the cause of the Ministry, the speeches of their opponents were reported, with the introduction of " yawns," " groans," &c. In many instances what he had stated to the House appeared in the Press in so disjointed a form, as to be a pack of nonsense. On one morning too, ke was called a fool, on another a fungus. All that he wished was, that the Press would leave him alone. The Noble Paymaster of the Forces had said that he was not sure if the Bill would be a final measure; for that would depend upon the manner in which it would be found to work. There was one way in which it was very evident the Bill would work; it would work to the utter destruction of one party in this country. The Tory-party might be said to be completely gone. Never, in any country, or in any of the phases of any Revolution, had there been so striking an instance of a plan absolutely devised by one party, for the utter de struction of another party, to which they were opposed. The Hon. Member proceeded to comment on the incon sistency of the arguments urged in favour of the Bill. The authors of it, while they asserted that the population was the ba.is of their measure, passed by places which had a much larger population than Gateshead, which had also at its very door a place already represented ; and no grounds had been submitted to the Committee for agreeing to the proposition before them. In the whole schedule D Gateshead was the only place, the application of a Member to which was extremely objectionable. Its appearance in the schedule was a very suspicious circumstance. If no alteration were made in the elective franchise as it now stood in the Bill; if it were to be " the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill," they would send a fire. brand through all the bee-hives of industry that would be productive of the most injurious consequences ; and it was generally allowed by those who had the means of judging upon such subjects, that a greater plague could not be conceived. Mr. HUNT congratulated the House and the country on the new view which the Noble Paymaster of the Forces had that night taken of the Bill. Up to that night it had been supposed that the Bill was to be a final measure. Now, the Noble Lord had very justly said, that if it did not work well it ought not to be final. He congratulated the Noble Lord on this fair and open avowal ; and be was sure the reflecting part of the community would be of the same opinion. He would vote with Ministers that night, be cause Gateshead was an insignificant place; and he was fully convinced that in the succeeding Parliament Chelsea would have a representative allotted to it. What the Hon. Member for Thetford had said with respect to the statements in the papers of the proceedings in that House was quite correct. It was astonishing to see, day after day, how the speeches of Members were misrepresented. Was that calculated to add to the character of the public Press? It was in vain to conceal the fact, that what was called the leading journal grossly misrepresented what oc curred there. For himself, he was accustomed to that kind of thing. But speeches to which he had listened with the greatest attention, were, with a disgusting want of prin ciple, wholly neglected, while others which almost set him to sleep, appeared in the most eloquent phraseology. For himself he should continue fearlessly to do his duty ' ; and if the Press thought to intimidate him, it was mistaken. The Committee then divided— Ayes 9.64, Noes Majority The House then proceeded with the remaining boroughs in schedule D. Mr. CROKER took occasion to remark that he did not object to giving Members to the boroughs in schedule D, but simply to this unequal distribution of the elective franchise. It was agreed to postpone the cases of Kendal and Walsall. It was agreed, without discussion, that the following boroughs should stand part of schedule D:— Halifax, including township of Halifax, Yorkshire. Huddersfield, including parish of Huddersfield,Yorkshire. Kidderminster, including town of Kidderminster,Worces tershire. :Macclesfield, including town of Macclesfield, Cheshire. Oldham, including parish of Oldham, Lancashire. Rochdale, including town of Rochdale. Salford, including townships of Salford, Pendleton, and Broughton, Lancashire. South Shields, including town of South Shields, town ship of Westoe, Durham. Stockport, including town of Stockport, Cheshire. Stoke-upon-Trent, including township of Longton and Lane-End, Fenton Culvert, Fenton Vivian, Penkhull and Bothen, Shelton, Manley, Burslem, with the vil lage of Rushton Grange and the hamlet of Sneyd, Tun stall Court, Chell, and Oldcott, Staffordshire. Tynemouth, including parish of Tynemouth, Northum berland. Wakefield, including township of Wakefield, Yorkshire. Whitby was then agreed to. The House then resumed, and Mr. BERNAL reported progress. SITTING ON SATURDAY. - - ThA o e n ri o h Gu e os e q u u w e L s aß t s i outnoßohNt m a objected ut given t t t bi o lyi g s s i ot a tn g u g i s n afi t t h uv i er s d a ay y ys .s , uch a n every week to make it fair to call on Members to sit on the sixth ; especially as Saturday was always looked upon by Members as their own, and private arrangements were made on that understanding. Lord ALT RORY had no desire to press hard upon Hon. Gentlemen, but it was highly desirable that the measure should be hastened forward as fast as possible ; and the sitting on Saturdays appeared to be one of the most feasible methods. Colonel SIBTHORPE said, that as the Noble Lord had stated that be wished to hasten the Bill forward as much ,s possible, so be (Colonel Sibthorpe) would state that he wished to retard it as much as possible—(A laugh)—be cause he knew, from daily information, that the greatest re-action was taking place in the country—(Laughter)— and that the detestable Reform Bill was beginning to be seen in its right light. Sir J. WROTTESLEY was desirous that they should meet on Saturdays ; and he was sure that in so doing he expressed the opinion of those gentlemen who were con nected with the country, and who must be very anxious to get to their ordinary pursuits. Lord STORMONT objected to sit on Saturday ; h e found himself quite exhausted with sitting five days a week. Lord MILTON took the other side, and reminded Mr. Goulburn that in the first Parliament in which they ever sat, which was in 1807, they had constantly sat on Satur days for the purpose of expediting business. Sir It. PEEL said the Hon. Gentlemen might talk of their convenience this way and that w a y ; b ut the real q uestion was, whether sitting on Saturdays was the best way of getting through the public business. For his own part, he must say that after sitting four days every week on the subject of Reform, he thought that the mind was i n no fit state to pursue the same subject on the fifth • by c ontinuing to do so the House wou!d cease to become a it tribunal for considering the subject. Lord ALTHORP thought that the Right Hon. Ba ronet had made use of rather an odd argument. He said that because he bad to consider the question of Reform for ,bur days, he was not in a condition for cons id ering it on the fifth. According to his (Lord Althorp's) feelings, the more he considered a subject, the more he found self capable of understanding it. Sir C. WETHERELL said, that the Bill would he through the House in tw weeks, the sitting on Saturday would only save two days; and he did not see, however iinvortant the Reform BBL might be, what great advan tage would be gained by making ruck a paltry saving as that. • Sir C. FORBES said, that if any one would second him, he would have a repetition of the scene that had taken place two or three weeks ago, from which he thought that much good had proceeded. Lord EBRINGTON hoped, that if any such attempt was made, it would be met in the same way as it was on the last occasion.—(Cheers.) Mr. MARTIN reminded the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) that he himself, last Friday, had proposed that they should sit on this Saturday ; and it appeared to him (Mr. Martin), the more reasonable, as they had not sat this week on Worldly. Sir R. PEEL said, that the sitting last Saturday had nude up for the no-sitting on Monday. Sir H. HARDINGE said, that the Noble Lord would not gain any thing by sitting this day, for there was a mo tion relative to Belgium which would occupy two, three, or four hours. _ . . Mr. LITTLETON said, that that being the case, it appeared to him to be all the stronger reason for sitting on Saturday. Mr. GOULBURN observed, that he only asked the same courtesy he had invariably shown when he occupied the situation of the Noble Lord. Mr. BENET r said, that although Ministers had done their utmost to advance the measure, they had not credit for it in the country. They were bound to attend to the public wishes and expectation. If the opponents of the Bill would pledge themselves that they would not resist its passing in a fortnight, be was sure that Ministers would not require the House to meet on Saturday. Sir 11. VYV YAN was glad that the House was to sit to-morrow, as it gave him an opportunity of bringing for ward his motion. Mr. O'CONNELL said, that as the Irish and Scotch Reform Bills were yet to be brought in and proceeded with. If it were not a crime, the House ought rather to sit on Sundays than omit to sit on Saturdays. The question was then put and carried. PRINCESS VICTORIA. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought in a Bill for granting the sum of 10,0001. for the Princess Victoria.—lt was read a first time. Adjourned at a Quarter-past One until. Eleven this day. HOUSE OF LORDS, AUGUST 5. At Fin o'clock the Earl of SHAFTESBURY took his seat on the Woolsack. The Earl of BELFAST, from the Commons, brought up the Belfast Harbour Improvement Bill. The House then went into Committee on the Church Building Bill, the report of which was ordered to be brought up on Monday. The LORD CHANCELLOR then entered, when the Bills for the abolition of the truck systam of paying wages . _ were passed. Lefevre's Divorce Bill was also read a third time and passed. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE. presented a petition from Ma.nchester, numerously signed, praying that a legislative enactment might be passed to shortenthe work ing hours of children under twenty-one years of age. The NOBLE MARQUIS then presented another petition from Stockport, praying for the amelioration of the Crimi nal Laws. AFFAIRS OF PORTUGAL. The Earl of ABERDEEN—He had for some time been extreine!y desirous to call their Lordships' attention to matters connected with the present situation and affairs of Portugal—matters which, under the present circumstances, appeared to hint to be of the highest importance. The subject to which he more particularly wished to call their Lordships' attention was, the present state of the Azores, and the transactions which had tecently taken place in. these islands. He referred, not only to the outrages which had been lately committed by the garrison, and what was called the Regency and Terceira troops, but to the pro jects which appeared to be there for the future—projects in which the honour as well as the interest of this country were deeply compromised.—(Hear, hear.) Of all places in the world, perhaps, there was not a spot more important, with reference to the commerce of Great Bri tain, than these islands. They lay directly in the course of vessels coming from the west, and it was of the last im portance that they should be in the hands of a friendly Power. They had been for a long period in the hands of a Power friendly to this country, and this had been of im mense advantage to British commerce. If they should fall into the hands of an unfriendly Power, it was impos sible to calculate the mischief with which that circum- stance might be attended. He had some time ago called the attention of their Lordships to this subject, and the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Administration had then stated, that he bad received no accurate informa tion with respect to the events which had occurred at Terceira, and the rest of the Azores. He hoped that the Noble Earl bad since that time received accurate information respecting the proceedings at these islands, and that he was ready to communicate that information to their Lord ships and the public. His Majesty's Ministers had lately, as was well known, demanded reparation from the exist ing Government of Portugal for injuries done to British subjects, and it was admitted that the reparation had been as satisfactorily made as it had been promptly demanded. Then see how far reparation for similar injuries had been demanded from and made by the Liberals of Terceira.— (Hear, hear.) On the recognition of the present actual Sovereign of Portugal by the Cortes and the Portuguese nation, the troops and the people of Terceira and of the rest of the Azores, had cordially concurred in that recognition. But the garrison of Terceira had after wards revolted, and had reduced the inhabitants who re fused to join them to subjection, and ruled them on a system of complete tyranny and military despotism.— (Hear, hear.) But by intelligence from the British Con sul, and from every arrival from that quarter, it appeared the inhabitants remained firmly attached to the existing Government of Portugal. Some time ago, Don Pedro had thought proper to create a Regency, and appointed the island of Terceira as its place of residence. At first the Regency had fixed its residence in Lon don, but by an order of Don Pedro, of last year, they were positively directed to reside at Terceira, and there they established themselves. At Terceira they re mained quiet as long as their monthly stipends were paid, for they were the creatures of Don Pedro, and it was by a monthly allowance from him that they were supported. As long as they were paid in this manner, they did no thing particular bearing on the interests of this or any other country. But when, either from want of ability or disposition in Don Pedro to pay, this monthly allowance ceased, it became necessary for the garrison of Terceira to adopt some other course to procure subsistence, and no other course presented itself than plunder. An expedi tion to some of the other islands was then determined upon, and on the 9th of April an embargo was laid on the British vessels at Terceira, and the masters of the vessels having been applied to to take part with their ships in the expedition, an : ! they refusing, the masters were _ . turned out, the vessels forcibly taken possession of, to be employed in the expedition. On the 10th of April, the matter of the vessel called the Coquette, of London, was applied to in this manner, and the master having posi tively refused to have any thing to do with the expedition, he was forced to abandon his ship, which was taken pos session of by eighty or one hundred soldiers of the gar rison, and the British flag torn down. The masters of four or five other vessels, seeing what had happened, thought it most prudent to come intoterms, and th , y under protest consented to join the expedition. On the 17th of April the expedition sailed, and took possession of one of these defenceless islands, and afterwards of another of them, called the island of St. George; where, according to the information which he had received, they corn mitted the most horrible cruelties and atrocities, although he hoped that these had been greatly exaggerated. But, be that as it might, this was, properly, no military expedition, for the object was manifestly plunder, and nothing else. They had captured some British vessels; and, if all this was not piracy, it was certainly something approaching to it. Those who undertook the expedition were, properly, subjects of no Government, either de facto or de jure, but were merely a Junta appointed by the Emperor Don Pedro, and supported by him. Ile was sorry to say, that all this passed under the eye of the master of one of his Majesty's vessels of war—the Gala.. tea—and that, notwithstanding the complaints of the merchantmen, that officer did' not feel himself authorised by his instructions to interfere. Let it be recollected that, at the same time, the French fleet were blockading the Tagus. The existing Portuguese Government was anxious to send two vessels to warn the vessels corning from the west of this circumstance. The merchantmen coining from the west were insured at London, and yet the British Consul refused to lend his authority to the sending of the two vessels to warn the merchantmen, on the pretence that the British Government was neutral, and could not interfere. There never was a more scan dalous act of injustice than the ca p ture of these merchant men, and vet we had p revented intelli g ence bein g s ent to them d assumed u their d r g r e a r cZ of (lle g a rater , re hear.) them These to wn proceedingsar im portance from e vents that had recently taken place. Don Pedro had been driven from his dominions, and had now arrived in. this country, and was engaged in projects for the invasion and conquest of Portugal": (Hear, hear.) It was notorious that lie had endeavotur t r raise a loan in this country, for the execution of t 11 1! project, and had proposed to secure its repayment by the evenues of Portugal. Great as.was the gullibility of t''g capitalists of this country, this speculation was rather to l) much for the most of them, although there was bar any speculation of the kind which would not take bere t some extent ; and he believed that a promise of 0 0 ' money had been obtained, and that negociations were e° foot to purchase vessels for the invasion with the mor e l' and to have those vessels commanded by British officer'; Was it to be tolerated that these things should be peranitt e . , to proceed, in violation of the law of nations and the 1", of the land ? and that they should not only be permit ted but encouraged ?—( Hear, hear.) This evinced ato disregard of courtesy and common duty with respect to the existing Government of Portugal. When D m ye dr : was Emperor of the Brazils, we admitted that he ha d a right, if he chose, to make war on Portugal against lv brother and in support of the claims of his daught e6 ; and with respect to this we had preserved a strict ne 3l :l trality. This was what we had done when Don Ped r ; 3 . had rebelled against his father. We had preserved a strl c 1 neutrality, and our answer to the father, when he ee . inanded succour from us, was, that we did not pretend ° n'erfere in the internal affairs of Portugal. We had P it j served the same course with respect to Don Pedro st ) his brother, and we informed them that w e w ere t r. solved that other nations should preserve the same ne,.l: trality. But the Emperor Don Pedro had found ' case desperate, and he had in the course of the last I intimated to the Government of this country that be h, no thoughts of proceeding in a hostile manner against ': brother ; but that, on the contrary, he was anxious ',il settle the disputes between them by conciliation 8e negociation; and he sent an Ambassador to this countlf avowedly with a view to this amicable adjusttneti He began at first to negotiate a loan, but at length O w cially communicated that he was authorised to enter up a negociation for settling the differences between the E°:l, peror Don Pedro and his brother. He did not mean t ; I enter into the details of this affair, although if he ( 1 ;1 their Lordships would not be a littl e su r p r iz e d to be 3. some of them. But Don Pedro had since been driv es i from his throne, with a unanimity on the part of his d r jects of which there had hardly ever before occurred ° example. He was deprived of his throne, and not °, t° single hand was held up in his defence. He appealed Pr : the troops, but they refused to obey, and he was forced abandon his throne, his country, and his children, undeli circumstances the most painful that could be conceive u .:l He now came here to wage a private war against hi: brother, and appeared to look for assistance from tl' e l British Government. But there was no man who it s ' lass title to assistance from the British Government the, Don Pedro. There was no Power that had ever acte‘ more offensively and more injuriously to the British g ab ,' jects than he had done. Talk of injury indeed ! fle lll . frequently i n fli c t e d i n j ur i es u p on th em , an d e v e ry 10/ 13 ', ,. ' was justified by an insult, and all redress was obstina te '', refused. It was not long since that it had been found ° e l cesaary to have recourse to effectual measures to obtain , re ' e i dress, and the proposed conditionshad been at length ace e ' to, and the claims of British subjects had been acknowledg e 0 lgrei signed, the e a it e t e e and redress promised. He had not thought it expedients, v t ß e e r ui r itt u juo p in t t hsoi t gi l i insert these disputes in these dispatches, as his object gi p . to procure redress without, if possible, doing anything to 03. r it m et s n conditions would be performed, for the present Gove r ' l , ' might e haden still t i e agreedPe uncertaindll andto , andi h ' i o s wt broth r ° t e tj el i v r : mount of Brazil might have different views on the sub; d 1 and it might he d ou btf u l h ow f ar t h e G overnmen t of v . ,," 1 Pedro the Second m i g h t t hi n k i tse lf h oun d b y a c ool' Lion made with Don Pedro the First. These things e i ! li o, of great importan ce w i t h re f erence to our present posit' i with the existin g G overnment o f P ortuga l. A n y je t f r o p ference on our part in favour of Don Pedro's restorstli t a the throne of Portugal would be a manifest breach neutrality ; and yet it was notorious that Don Pedro eon gaged in projects here for the invasion and conquest Portugal. He did not mean to say that any exPed,„ f for the accomplishment of th a t object was to sail frna' British port; but it was notorious that preparations el f making here for the conquest of Portugal, and the kre i po t ledge of that circumstance must injure our interest i i i only with the existing Government of Portugal, ha t s every quarter of the world, as long as Portugal rerna' fj i in its present condition. That condition was most pit ; and most painful to think of. Their Lordships had bust of the recent transactions. They had heard of . s French fleet entering the Tagus, without any effort 0 3 i; by our Government to prevent it. It was utterly ii i possible for him to describe the feelings of !Obi ; and humiliation with which, as a British subject, 0 , reg irded that transaction. He gave the Noble Ss (Grey) himself credit for being impr esse d with t ei same feelings. In this conduct of the French!. there was no humiliation to Portugal. It was r'"' land that was disgraced.—(Hear, hear, from the OP ~i sition benches.) Let it be supposed for a moment t; this event had taken place while Charles the Tenth red in France. Let it be supposed that at that time the ri. fish had permitted the French fleet to enter the Tety. and that the white flag had waved under the walls of tij bon, not to say upon the walls, as had been represeepi by a slip in a late royal document.—(Hear, hear.) 4 0 it be suproied that the white flag bad then waved I l it under the walls of Lisbon, what a noise their Lords of would have heard in this House about national degrada, t ;i and dishonour ! W a s it c l ear t h a t t h ey wou ld not R ol even heard something about an impeachment ? A ,V since this event had taken place, he called upon the P: f Lord to produce such documents and papers as he er sg e sidered best calculated to explain the extraordinary 0 01 action. He was astonished that the Noble Earl hall _ 4 4 laid these papers on the table. As long as there s ' s hi negociations depending on the subject, and as long a,', result was doubtf u l, it m i g ht b e i m p ro p er that the ° o at ments should be made public. But when the result ,la already known, an d w h en war h a d ac t ua lly been 03 i then there was no use whatever in concealing thdi vious pro cee di ngs . T a k e t h e case o f th e l as t invasie ° ,o Spain by the French. Negotiations had taken pla ce o9 order to pr even t t h a t ca t astro ph e . Th ese ne gocia t t o failed, and the invasion took place ; and theo 5 ,,,i , Canning, with ou t d e lay, c am e down to the 14 0 0 , of Common s , an d exp l a i ne d w h a t th ese negoeia4, were—how they had failed. This was au e o 'd which the Noble Earl ought to have followed in the Poi' sent case; and the more so, because the interest doll country was much stronger in the present case than le $ a of Spain. Portugal was much dearer to us than SP ` r therefore no unnecessary delay ought to have til i r ! place in laying these documents before the public. I„ t i irj indeed, possible that some negociations might be sti' ll ai pending to restore peace between Portugal and Fr a il but so there were, in order to restore peace hety France anti Spain, and he himself had the satisfact i°i t t: see the termination of these negociations in the rett eil ot the French from Spain. He frankly admitted that, i was a responsibility in forcing information, buts' ' 1 same time it must be considered that there was a ae°, bility in refusing to produce information.—( Hear, The French fleet was now in the Tagus, and the 3 ; e , Earl ought to lay the proper documents on their ships' table, to explain how it came that a French.) was in that situation. The Noble Earl ought, " 1 , delay, to explain how it came that the British ship s N' captured and so improperly employed at the Azoreell, must again call the Noble Earl's attention to the l'il existing between this country and Portugal. The I c itS"; Earl had said that he did attend to these treaties , lot, he admitted their obligation. But front the cont l° ( the Noble Earl towards Portugal, one could sc f imagine that he was aware of the full force , ° Ar l obligations founded on those treaties. Let him ! 9 .e f i the whole of them, commencing with ',;it? ''' .e. , 71 . 1 Edward the Third and coming dotan t o the P ` ,, ` l, time. Let hint look at the treaty of 166 l , to,ictl' the King of En g l an d engage d to m a intain the 51 ,1 ,1 . 6 . friendship and alliance with Portugal, and t 0 th e : its interest both by sea and land, even in th ° ,,Y, manner as he wo u ld d e f e nd the interest:: of E 0 1 1 ) /6 d,, ' There was a ser i es of th e se treaties bettve ert if country and Portugal from the time of Edward th e r oi! down to 1815, w hi c h was th e l as t which was ~0 ) ' between the two countries, and in which it was P I y, that a ll f ormer trea ti es s h ou ld re main in full f oo 'l i ll : vigour. The Noble Earl admitted the o bligati c4 :l that ' posed by th ose t re ati e s, but th e n he said not bound to support the present Government 9 .11 goo b 1 since we had not acknowledged it. taut with telt it i, oi these treaties been made ? They had been made 'e ,t't Portuguese nation as represented by its varione4oao Governments for the time being. How could tr. g , made with nations except by means of their ex istit r iaie, vernments, and to whom were treaties to be l' e e re o l except to the Governments which, for the time, cognised by the nation ? From whom was reti re' ( 141 sought, and from w h om h a d th e N o ble Earl dell, it,i dress except f rom th e e xi s ting Governinen 'trei' Noble Earl, howev er , admitted the force of t he rt p d but then he said that we weie not bound to stil i r,, a se 1 , tugal in an unj us t cause. Granted ; but sePrj e d t ., cause of Portug a l h a d b een unju s t, still lie coutenlig,t; it was the duty o f thi s country, in virtue of the ou cii , us imposed by th e P or t ugue se treaties, to have 14 0 , means in th e ir p ower t o hav e pr e vented this 11.