The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 14. ROTHSCHILD v. BROOK:VAN. The arguments on behalf of the appellants in this part heard appeal having been concluded, Lord WEXFORD, who sat with the LORD CHANCELLOR, gave the judgment of the House, without calling upon the Counsel on behalf of Mr. Brookmen to address their Lordships, affirming: the decision of his Honour the Vice-Chancellor, with 1001. costs. MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. Mr. Bin:Rehr., and several other Members from the .House of Commons, b-ought up several Private Bills. Mr. Brown, from the Metropolitan Commissioners of Lunacy, brought up papers. Petitions were presented by Lord Goderich, from Lin coln, in favour of Reform ; by Lord Gower, front the Staffordshire Potteries, to the same effect; by Lord Deere, from Dissenters in London and Westminster, against slavery ; by the Earl of Radnor, from a place in Scotland, in favour of Reform ; by the Earl of Rosebery, from Lin lithgow, to the same effect; by Lord Durham, from South wark and Forfar, to the same effect ; by Earl Spencer, from Christchurch, Surrey, in favour of Reform; by Lord Farnham, from Cork, against slavery ; by Lord Glen • gall, from Tipperary, against the tithe system ; and by Lord Aberdeen, from Paisley, against the duties on cotton wool. The Duke of DEVONSHIRE rose to present a peti tion from Clerkenwell in favour of Parliamentary Reform. In doing so his Grace took that occasion to observe that he considered his Majesty's Ministers de served the gratitude of every man in the country for the measure whicit they had brought forward relative to this great question. In doing so they bad consulted the interesrs of all classes, and had relieved the hereditary borough proprietors of the reproach of employing objec tionable measures at elections, arid at the same time secured to them those advantages which property ought to pos sess.--(Hear.)--He could no longer refrain from expres sing his cordial approbation of the measure proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, and his resolution to support it to the utmost whenever it came before their Lordehipa. The Noble Duke also presented a similar petition from Poole. The Marquis of CLEVELAND presented a pe tition from Totness, Devonshire, against some parts of the Reform Bill. He (the Noble Marquis) could not accord with this petition; no kind of considera tion, no personal benefit that he could derive from countenancing that system which he considered so im proper, would prevent him from giving the measure his most decided support. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE doubted very much whether the petition could be received, as it referred to a Bill not before the House. The petition was accordingly withdrawn. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Earl GREY presented a petition from the freeholders of Northumberland, voted at a public meeting convened by the High Sheriff, and held on the 9th of February last, in favour of Reform. The petition prayed for a Reform by means of an extension of the elective suffrage to all house holders; it prayed also for the shortening of the duration of Parliaments, and it also prayed for the taking of votes by ballot. On this latter subject Lis sentiments were too well known to require explanation. The petition was signed by 5,000 persons, and spoke the approbation of the county which he had so long had the honour of repre senting, in favour of the principles of Reform. The Mutiny Bill was then read a third time and passed. On the motion of Lord AUCKLAND, the Calico Draw back Duties Bill was read a third time and passed. BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL. Lord WYNFORD said, that a few weeks ago, when he laid on their Lordships' table a Bill enabling parties to be examined on oath in their own suits, his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack had stated that it would make such a sweeping al.eration of the law of England, that he uni et require time for its consideration. When his Noble and Learned Friend made application to him ler time, he was immediately of opinion that time ought to be given ; for he had too much respect for the law of Eng land as it now stood, to wish to innovate upon it without due consideration. Now if the measure which he (Lord Wynford) had introduced some weeks ago deserved the title of a sweeping measure, much more did the Bill which his Noble and Learned Friend had since introduced deserve that title ; for it was so extensive in its details, and so sweeping in its alterations, as to require more time for consideration than any Bill which had been laid upon the table of their Lordships since be hod had the honour of a *eat in their House. At this moment a Noble and Learned Friend of his, who wished to take part in the discussion on this Bill, was prevented from attending by indisposition. His Noble and Learned Friend hoped hoWever, to be able to attend in his place in the course of a week; but as his hopes had been disappointed several times already, perhaps his attendance might not be so early as himself arid his friends wished. Their Lordships were also aware that another Noble and Learned Friend of his, who had expressed his intention of explaining his senti ments on this Bill, was now absent from town on the circuit. If, then, the B;11 to which he was referring were not of such a description as he had already stated, he should conceive that the absence of his two Noble and Learned Friends, who had expressed a wish to be present at its discussion, would be sufficient to induce their Lord ships to accede to the motion which he intended to propose to them. But if their Lordships would only consider the rapidity with which this Bill had hitherto passed through its different stages, and the importance of every one of its clauses to the community, Ise was sure that their Lord ships would see that a delay for the time which he asked was nut either an extravagant nor an unreasonable re quest. Besides, he had only got this Bill on Saturday morning in its printed form. Ire had devoted the whole of Saturday to a consideration of it, and he thought that, if necessary, lie could convince their Lordships that it re quired a longer time for a fair investigation of its merits. Ile was inclined to think that this Bill was calculated to do a great deal of good ; but he was also inclined to think that it would not do that good, unless it was altered in some of its detail.', and altered, too, in a way which be was not prepared at that time to describe. When he men tioned the important subjects to which this Bill had refer ence, every body would see that nobody could state what alterations ought to be made in it without time being given them for consideration. He thought that the Bill in question would clash with the whole system of our bankrupt law, as it was developed in the sta tute of the 6th of the late King. Hew much of that statute must be repealed be MS not then prepared to state; but that sonic part of it must be repealed he was quite convinced, otherwise they would have two Acts on their statute book inconsistent with each other, and pro ducing that confusion in the administration of justice, which was not only impolitic, but also dangerous to so ciety. The Bill of his Noble anal Learned Friend swept away at once 72 Commissioners of Bankrupts. On the first blush of the matter he thought that it would be a good thing to do away with these Commissioners; b t he had since heard the observations which had been made re: that subject by a Noble and Learned Lord, who had had greater experience than himself in matters of bank ruptcy. He confessed, that though be was inclined to stand by his original opinion on this point, the opinion given by his Noble and Learned Fries(' induced him let hope that the Bill would not pass through their Lordehi pa' House without undergoing full cm:et:Aeration. The Bill got rid of 70 officers, whose joint sates ins atnouated to 21,000/. ar. Now the Judges, who were to be ap pointed in their stead, though only ten in number, if they were to be !supported as Judges ought to be supported, wenhl cost the country in the amount of their salaries 25,000/. a-year. Thus, on a single point, lan increase of 4,0001. rt-year would be made to the burdens of the country. To this stun mast be added the salary of a re gistrar, seven clerks, and Su eclignees. He must here state, that if these officers were to bee, paid in such a man ner as would give the public security tket they were men eapzble of discharging tl:g duties of their ()thee: properly, the expense which they would fix upon the country eeeld not be less than 14,000/. a-year, Surely a Bill which increased the expenditure of the country so materially in a time of general financial distress, was not one which ought to he passed without due forethought and de4leeration. His Noble and Learned Friend bad said that this Bill would not inflict any additioea! charge on the public, for the charge was to be taken out of the suitors' fund. The LORD CHANCELLOR s intimaeed his di sent; but the terms which it was couched in did not reach us. Lord WYNFORD—W e II, h e m i g ht be mi s tak en i n saying that the charge for the registrars, clerks, and as signees, Was to be defrayed out of tho suitors' fund, but as to the other part of the charge coming from that quarter there could h e no doul,t ; but in the Bill it wes distinctly stated that the Cominiseion e re were to have remuneration paid out of that fund. Now he beeged to enter his pro test against that arrangeme n t. The Bankrupt Court and the Court of Chancery ; were di st i nct Courts and their Lordships haul no more righ t to take the funds holong ing t o the suitors in Chancery, line t o app l y them to the ex pens of the jurisdiction in bankruptcy, than they had to transfer them to any other public object . whatever. Thi s OVlia tax on public prop ert y . If the suitors' fund did not theintiK to the suitors, to whom dial it belong? To the public. it w a s true that the unclaimed dividends . the t T' ank had &11.0 been considered public property, and bad been applied to public purposes. He had not made up his mind as to whether the objections against dealing with the suitors' fund as public property ought to prevail, all he meant to say of them at present was, that they deserved time for consideration. Another objection against this Bill appeared to him, as at present advised, to he this— that it constituted too many Judges, and that those Judges were not co-ordinate. It produced a species of tribunal. which had no similarity to any of the tribunals which we hail at present in the country : it would produce some thing more like to the Courts in France, or to the con stitution of the different Courts of Session in Scotland. The four senior Judges in these new Courts of Bank rupts), were to be entitled " Elder Brothers," and the six junior Judges were to be entitled " Younger Brothers." 11, hid heard of elder brother of the Trinity-house, but he hail never yet heard of any elder brothers on our benches of co-ordinate Judges ; and he must say that in his opinion the introduction of these terms was very impolitic. He was convinced that if the Bankruptcy Court were consti tuted as the other courts of law were constituted in this country, five Judges would be sufficient to perform all the business which would come before it. Three of them might sit regularly in Court for the despatch of serious business, and the two others might, like the Judges of the ordinary Courts, sit at chambers for the purpose of de spatching ordinary business. He would undertake to prove that these five Judges would be equal to all the duties of their situation, and that thus a saving of 10,0001. a-year might be effected to the public. He must also observe, that there appeared to be a very plentiful allow ance of officers to this new Court. In the Court of Corn. mon Pleas, when he had the honour of presiding there, there were only three prothonotaries and three secondaries. He therefore could not see any necessity why this new Court should have two registers and two deputy registers, to gether with seven clerks and seven clerks' deputies. If it had such a staff of officers, it would have more officers at tached to it than the Court of Common Pleas, which ad ministered justice throughout all the counties of England; and yet the jurisdiction of this new Court would not ex tend mush further than the limits of the metropolis ! There were also some other objections to the Bill, which he would take that opportunity of stating. There was to be a Court of Appeal, he believed, from this Bankruptcy Court. Now if there was to be such an appeal, be thought . . that it ought not to be to the Lord Chancellor. He k;1 a great respect for all Chancllors, and as great a respect for his Noble and Learned Friend then on the woolsack as for any Nob!e and Learned Lord who ever sat there. He had heard that— " Judges are wise, but Chaisclors wiser still ;" • but even allowing them all credit for judicial wisdom, he never could allow the propriety of admitting an appeal from four Judges to one. In all such cases the appeal, if, indeed, an appeal were to be allowed, should be to that House. What he should recommend would he, that the appeal should be to as great a number of Judges, at least, as the Court consisted of. Their Lordships were well aware, that until :he Act of a late Session was passed, a writ of error lay from the Court of Common Pleas to the Court of King's Bench, and vice versa. The conse quence of that arrangement was, that in case the two Courts differed from each other in opinion, the parties knowing that it was only the decision of four Learned Judges in one Court against the decision of four equally Learned Judges in another Court, appealed, as a matter of course, to their Lordships. To obviate the litigation which arose from this source, their Lordships had passed a law, by which it was provided that the writ of error from the King's Bench or the Common Pleas should be to to the Judges of the Court of Exchequer and the Judges of one of the two other Courts from which the writ of error did not come. That alteration was much approved of by the Commissioners who were appointed to examine into the administration of the common law in this country. Now their Lordships would be absolutely retrograding in the career of legislative improvement, if they permitted an appeal to be made to the Chancellor alone from a large holy of independent Judges. Perhaps, when he had heard all that could be said on this part of the case, he might be inclined to change his opinions, but in the mean time be trusted that he had laid down sufficient grounds for granting the delay for which he asked. As yet there had been no debate on the second reading of this Bill. He did not mean to insinuate that there had been any thing unfair on the part of his Noble and Learned Friend on the I ,Voolsack ; but somehow or other it had happened, that no notification had been made as to the period at which this Bill was to be read a second time. His motion was, that this Bill be not re-committed till the 15th of April, and he was the more encouraged to hope that his motion would succeed, from his knowing that the public interests would not suffer from the delay which be now asked. The LORD CHANCELLOR had listened with no ordinary feelings of wonderment to the speech of lila N,ahle and Learned Friend,—a speech than which, one more skilful, more judiciously adapted to damaging a measure in the eyes of this House and the public, without directly opposing it, he had never heard, and which, when taken into consideration with the most unprecedented motion with which his Noble and Learned Friend concluded,—emotion, which umler the pretext of delay would do away, to all practical purpos' a, altogether with the present important Bill,--would, he was sure, be felt as justifying a few re marks in reply to it. His Noble and Learned Friend, in stead of following the usual mode of opposing measures pursued in both Houses of Parliament, and boldly and gallantly coming forward with a decided motion to get rid of the Bill by moving that it be read a third time that day three months, by which it weuld, iu a manner, be defeated far ever and a day, asked their Lordships to con sent to the next stage being delayed till that day four weeks. By this delay all the purposes of those interested in the defeat of the measure would be obtained, and a stigma would be fixed on it equivalent to its ignominious rejection,—which, aided by the artful statement of his Noble and Learned Friend that would go forth to the public, would give birth to feelings of a most disastrous nature on the part of a most important portion of the com mercial community. llis Noble and Learned Fa ientl's statement bad indeed amazed him a little,—it was so art ful,—so skilful,—so cunningly (he used the term in its ancient sense as synonymous with knowingly) skilful for its object, and was, besides, so timed, as to take him com pletely off his guard. And what, after all, was the grava men of his charge? Why, that we (the advocates of the Bill) were hurrying it too rapidly through its stages, and by so doing, they should be depriving themselves of • the advantages of the observations which a Noble and Learned Lord (Eldon) was prevented by indisposition from offering on the present occasion, and another Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst) by his judi cial attendance on circuit. But it should be recol lected, that neither of these Noble and Learned per sons had urged any objection—at least any that he ever heard of—to the principle of the Bill, long as it had been before the House, though they had expressed their dis sent from the provisions of a Bill not yet before their Lordships, for regulating the examination of witnesses before the Court of Chancery; so that it would be too much for his Noble and Learned Friend to ground his motion on what those Noble and Learned Lords might possibly have to say, were they then present. It was now theca, weeks since he had fully—indeed, be feared at a tedious length—explained the principle features of the present Bill ; and sir.mi that occasion it had passed through several stages, each affording a convenient opportunity for a discussion, if his Noble and Learned Friend felt himself called upon to provoke any; and yet his Noble and Learned Friend, neither on the evening on which he hail made his lengthened statement, nor when the Bill was in Committee, nor when the report was brought up, nor on the stage when the further consideration of that report stood as an order of the day, had made a single objection to its principle or chief features. Even now, he must say, he did not understand where the objection of his Noble and Learned friend actually lay, unless, indeed, the ;Mee objection summed up in what his Noble and Learned Friend stated to be, not a change, but a modification of his opinion, with reference to what he termed the whole sale sweeping away of the seventy Condnicsioners of Bank rupts. This, after all, was, he was sure, the nucleus, though carefully wrapped up, of his Noble and Learned Triend's objection ; his Noble and Learned Friend was, perhaps - unintentionally, the advocate of these seventy gentlemen, iniestated alp preserving what the Bill went t a remove altoge her. The sets& nty—theseptuagint of the Bank rupt C o mmission—had evinced an activity of opposition to the present measure which their Lordships were little aware of; they were the assiduous cotnmentators—th e translators, nisiaah more laborious than faithful, if its tendency and provisiona ; and had employed every means in their power out of joara, and as far as they went, peradventure in the House, to have it thrown aint alto gether. hence the present !notion of his Noble and Learned Friend to have the Bill delayed for four weeks, his force, he supposed not basing equal to the more open and decided negative of a motion, that it be re-committed that day three months,—all in obedience to the unremitting ex ertions of the seventy Bankrupt Commissioners : be should correct himself, rot all of them, but the large majority, who were personally interested in the existing machinery, with all its abuses and imperfections. He was himself actually besieged by these gentlemen, hourly beset, either by letter or in conference with themselves, or some friend, counsel, judge, attorney, wife, cousin, aunt, or relation— (A laugh)—all endeavouring to influence him to abandon or modify th e provisions of the Bill, so far as they affected their individual intereat, without any reference to the still ' more important intereite of public justice. Their Lord ships could hardly credit the unremitting energy with which this siege had been, he might saay strictly, hourly carried on since he first proposed the measure for their adoption. It almost amounted to a blockade, and all that it wanted to constitute a close blockade would be afforded by the artful motion for delay just proposed by his Noble and Learned Friend. He, therefore, called ❑pon th e House to refuse its sanction to the motion, as one fraught with more insidious mischief than their Losdshipa coulel have supposed, from the artful statement of his Noble and Learned Friend. Not that he was a captious stickler for a particular dav, or would sacrifice, in the slightest point, the public good to the strict letter of a motion ; but that he felt himself bound to oppose the principle on which he was persuaded his Noble and Learned Friend bad brought it forward. He was anxious, however, to remove all the grounds of cavil on the part of the opponents, direct or indirect, open or covert, of the measure ; and he was, !Above all, anxious that its provisions and principl es should be thoroughly understood ; and therefore should not object to a moderate delay, if he could persuade himself that by the delay they would have the ad. vantage of the observations of the Noble and Learned Lord who had so long presided ever the Court to which the jurisdiction of the present Bill properly belonged. He would consent to this moderate delay with a frankness at least equal to that which his Noble and Learned Friend had proposed his motion, but should offer to his motion as it stood his most strenuous dissent. The ! Noble and Learned Lord proceeded next to say, that he felt some difficulty in replying to the observations of his Noble and Learned Friend, in consequence of the shifting, qualified, untangible nature of those obj ctions. His Noble and Learned Friend never expressed himself hut in doubt, thrown out as a quasi friendly suggestion, qualified with a salvo of its not being intended as a decided objec tion to the Bill, but as a matter worthy of delay for its serious consideration. But, alas ! all this friendly sugg es _ tion, by way of doubt, was much worse for the Bill than decided protest against its principle; for the inevitable tendency of such insidious opposition out of doors, at least, was to favour the clamour and misrepresentation which those interested in its defeat had since its promul gation been endeavouring to excite. His Noble and Learned Friend ha..? compounded his charge by every arti fice of imagination and forgetfulness ;—of forgetfulness, for he bad carefully forgotte❑ all that be (the Lord Chan cellor) had e xplained at such length, of the tendency and principle of the Bill, on the former occasion, supplying the omissions from his own fruitful fancy. He would cite one or two instances of this combination of artful obli vion and fancy. His Noble and Learned Friend had dwelt upon the tendency of the Bill to add to the public bur dens,texpressing a becoming jealousy of all unnecessary ex penditure of the public money. Now, to say nothing of his being perhaps as entitled to lay claim for having exer cised a constitutional jealousy on this score as his Noble nil Learned Friend, he would only point out the insi- _ . dious insinuation, which this, as he would show, most unfounded insinuation contained. His Noble and Learned Friend well knew, that there was no one mode more certain than another, by which the public mind could be raised against a measure, than to im press it with the notion that its tendency would b'a to add to the public burdens ; and therefore the burden of his Noble and Learned Friend's speech was, that the new staff of judicial officers, to quote his own expression, would be an additional expense instead of a saving to the public ; or, said his Noble and Learned Friend, the cost of the whole seventy Bankruptcy Commissioners was but from 21,0001. to 25,0001., while that of the ten new Judges proposed to be substituted for them by the present Bill would be 40,000/., thereby entailing an additional charge of at least 15,0001. per annum to the public.—(" Hear," from Lord Wynford.) What answer would lie make to phan- I tonic of clerks and commissioners which his Noble and Learned Friend had conjured up, to scare, if not himself, certainly those out of doors, as thus likely to cost the public 40,000/. per annum ? Why, simply this—that his Noble and Learned Friend's statement was without :be shadow of a foundation—(Hear)—that it was, in fact, from beginning to the end pure fiction.—(Hear.) He would not then fatigue the House with a twice-told tale of his former calculations on this point, for he was confident that if his Noble and Learned Friend had for gotten them for the ace esion, many of their Lordships had not.—(Hear.) He hail, when explaining the features and details of the Bill, shown their Lordships that so far from his plan adding 15,0001. a year to the public burdens it would actually lessen them by more than that amount— (Hear)—that the saving would be somewhere about 20,0001. per annum. And this led him to another, if possible, still more groundless insinuation (f or hi s N o bl e and Learned Friend had not ventured upon a bold and tangible assertion) of his Noble and Learned Friend— namely, that with reference to the funds from which the new Judges were to be paid. Strongly as the public felt, and justly too, on the score of additional expense, they felt still more strongly averse from the idea that Parliament should make free with the funds belonging to the suitors in Chancery—( He tr)—hence his Noble and Learned Friend, with all that advocate one-sided adroitness,—all that nisi pries astutenes which he had often admired in Westminster-hall—charges the framers of the Bill with designing to pay the ten new Judges out of the suitors' fund.---(" Hear," from Lord Wynford.) From the begin ning to the end there did not exit the shadow of a foun dation for this assertion—the pure creation of his Noble and Learned Friend's fruitful, and, as in this instance, most cunning fancy.—( Bear.) He (Lord Brougham) never said that the new Judges were to be paid out of the suitors' fund ; on the contrary, he most distinctly stated that they were not to be so paid ; and this explicit disclaimer of such a proposition was the only shadow of a foundation for his Noble and Learned Friend's artful statement. In deed, his Noble and Learned Friend seemed to he as igno rant of tl e nature of the suitors' fund, as he evidently was of the tendency of the Bill lie was covertly endeavouring, to defeat ; fir if lie was not so, he would not have told them that the fund was similar in kind to that of un claimed dividends. It was not ; and for this simple rea sun,—if the Government made use of any portion of the unclaimed dividends it did so on the guarantee that it was only as a loan, to be instantly repaid to the first bona fide claimant that presented himself. But no such use could be made of the suitors' fund, (of which there were two species under the control of the Court of Chancery) ; and the Government could only apply that fund called the "dead fund" for defraying the charge of the machinery of justice, and this, of course, only by permission of the Legisl iture by statute. But, said his Noble and Learned Friend, there was no instance of any portion of the suitors' fund—he it the dead fund or what it would—being thus applied to the payment of any of the officers of the Court of Chancery. A simple fact would show his Noble and Learned Friend and their Lordships how ill-founded was this declaration. The charge of the Master's-office, the Vice-Chancellor's-office, and, since Mr. Pitt's regulation in 1795, the salaries of the Masters, 6001. a-year each, were paid cut of this fund—(Hear)—and all the altera tions which his Bill would effect ; so far as the suitors' fund was concerned, would be to restore to it the 6,5001. per annum which it at present contributed towards the charges of the Master's office—(Hear)—showing that the asser tion of his Noble and Learned Friend was a most gratuitous and groundless —nay, in the teeth of fact—creation of his own fertile fancy. This was not all. lie fund which he had alluded to as that which would be applied to the charge of the machinery of the Courts, was the dead fund —_that is, the fund arising from the interest simple and compounded of the suitors' fund ; and no payment would be called fur by his Bill at all affecting that fund. The next point to which he would advert was the insinuation of his Noble and Learned Friend, of the needless number of the new Judges which the Bill proposed to appoint. It, said his Noble and Learned Friend, was the first time that he ever heard of ten Judges being appointed to determine one branch of one portion of law ; and he then indulged in some sneering comparisons between these officers and what he termed the younger as well as the elder brothers of the Trinity-house. Now, was it fair to thus attempt to stig matize ten gentlemen about to be summoned to the dis charge of very important administrative as well as judicial duties ? and was it fair to insinuate that their number was far greater than their duties could require, without having inquired into those duties, or waited till the appointment had been completed, and the machine actually put in mo tion ? And first with respect to the number of the Judges. His Noble Friend argued that because fifteen Judges were all that were engaged in all the Courts in Westminster hall, that therefore four or five ought to suffice for the intended bankruptcy jurisdiction. Now he (Lord Brougham) had, on a I,rrcer occasion, explained at length the grounds on which be proposed that ten should be the minimum number of the new Judges—.had explained that he at the outset was anxious to have a less number—to have but five if possible—and that nothing but the unani mous conviction of, and after numerous conferences with, the most experienced equity and common law practitioners, induced him to abandon his own small number, and agree ' that less than ten Judges would defeat the end he had in view in all his legal Reform measures. The Noble and Learned Lord dwelt on this point at some length, referring to the report of his speech for proof of his declaration, that he had originally proposed but five new Judges (though not in a tune peremptory or dogmatical), and that only conviction, the result of the demonstrations of experienced men, induced him to propose that the number should be ten. And rightly did the eminent men whom he bad con- stilted contend that less than ten would not auffice fur the ends of justice; and amply and candidly would he then avow that they were right, and that he was wrong in pro posing a less number ; and, attached as he was naturally to his own proposition, he surrendered it at once when it was proved to be erroneous.—(Hear.) The eminent law yers, on whose counsels he thus acted, had before them the most extensive information on which to ground their opinions. They had one element—an important one—of their calculation, in the number of hours which the whole seventy Commissioners of B tnkrupts usually devoted to their functions ; and they had another, in the nature and amount of the business which should come before the new Judges. And here he must say, that when his Noble and Learned Friend talked of fifteen Judges being sufficient for all the common law business of the country, while the Bill asked for ten Judges for the business of one branch of one Jurisdiction, he evidently overlooked or he was ignorant of the extent and importance of the cases on which the new bankruptcy Judges would be called upon to decide. He forgot that their functions would not only be extensively judicial, but that they would also have to act as adminis trators and trustees in all bankrupt cases that occurred in London and forty miles around ; and, as such, that it would not be easy to over estimate the amount and importance of their jurisdiction. The Noble and Learned Lord pro ceeded next to say that he was taken somewhat by surprise by his Noble and Learned Friend, and that he should be prepared to meet him whenever he chose to openly object to the principle of the Bill. He repeated that the pre-ent number of the new bankrupt Judges was not fixed upon by himself; hut, contrary to his own prepossessions on the matter, had been adopted by him as the result of his inquiries and conference with those most competent to offer advice on the subject; that the only end he had, or could have in view, in bringing forward the Bill, was to pro mote the interests of general justice; and that it involved no novelty of principle to warrant the indirect attack of his Hon. and Learned Friend. If their Lordships sanc t.oned his Noble and Learned Friend's motion, the result would be the instantaneous dismay and despair of the mer cantile community of the city of London, whose petition, signed by 4,500 of the bankers and merchants of that city, all crying out unanimously for the abolition of the present Bankrupt Commissioners' system, he had presented to that House; and though the success of that motion might carry delight and satisfaction to those interested in the emoluments and patronage of the present bankruptcy offices, it would be, as he had said, productive of despair in the minds of a most influential and important class of their fellow-subjects, and of the public at large..—(Hear.) For these reasons, anti to counteract the mischievous effect which his Noble and Learned Friend's observations might create out of doors, he must oppose his motion. Lord WYNFORD, in explanation, had only to say that he did not intend by his motion to moot the principle of the Bill, hut only to induce a careful and unhurried in verigation of its provisions. Nothing that had fallen from lois Noble and Learned Friend had affected the objections on which he had grounded his motion fur delay, for his objections remained unanswered. If he was in error as to the funds from which the new Judges were to derive their salaries, the error evas not his own, but his Noble and Learned Friend's, who failed, in his mind, to make matters much clearer. Besides, he had stated his reasons, be they valid or otherwise, for believing that the charge of the new Judges would be 40,0001. per annum, while his Noble and Learned Friend had not condescended to favour them with his reasons for counter-stating, that the charge would he 15,000/. a year less.—(Hear.) As his Noble and Leaned Friend had not vouchsafed to give them more than mere assertion for his dissent to the motion for delay till the 15th of April, and as there was every ground to expect Parliament would be sitting at least a month longer; anti, as, above all, the present Bill had been altered in all its parts since first propounded by his Noble and Learned Friend, he would take the sense of the House on his ma tion.—(Hear, hear.) He put it to their Lordships whe ther less than a month, the period of his motion, would suffice for a thorough investigation of its contents, and he put it to his Noble anti Learned Friend whether the juris diction of the bankruptcy courts was not essentially a common law one, and whether therefore its administrators had any right to be paid out of the funds placed under equity controul for strictly equity purposes. The LORD CHANCELLOR had only to repeat his disclaimer that the new Judges were not to be paid out of the suitors' fund, and his surprise that his Noble and Learned Friend should persist in insinuating that they were to he so paid. lie begged leave, morever, to deny the correctness of his Noble and Learned Friend's asser tion, that the Commissioners of Bankrupts formed no part of the Court of Chancery, inasmuch as the con nexion which subsisted between them and the judicature of that Court was, in his opinion, direct and obvious. Setting aside that consideration, however, he should merely add, that, should his measure be adopted, the public would save 8,000/. a year, while not the smallest loss would accrue to the suitors' fund in consequence of that saving. If, tinder such circumstances, their Lord ships would resort to the unheard-of course of postponing the next stage of the Bill for so long a period as an entire month, according to the suggestion of his Noble and Learned Friend, they would thus, in the estimation of th e public, affix a stigma on the measure which could not possibly be justified by any argument that had hereto fore been urged against it. The Noble and Learned Lord then put the motion, "that this Bill he recommitted on 15th of April ;" on which the House divided, when there appeared— Content 19 Not Content 34 Majority against the motion —l5 On our re-admission, The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, in reply to a question from Lord Manners, that he hid no objection to postpone the recommittal until that day week, if such a concession should meet the wishes of the Noble and - Learned Lord who oppo.e•l it. The Duke of WELLINGTON observed that his Noble and Learned FrienA, the Chief Baron, would then, most probably, be absent on circuit, in which case they could not have the advantap,e of his a..sistance in the discunsion. The LORD CHANCELLOR replied that the House having already decided against postponing the re-committal of the Bil for a month, could not well consent to put their legislative capacity in abeyance, and make its exer cise entirely depend on the presence or absence of any Noble Member, how respectable soever the individual might be. Nevertheless, it so happened, that he per sonally desired the presence of his Noble and Learned Friend, who professed, indeed, to be interested in the Lunacy Bill, and also in the third legal Bill which he meant to introduce, and which he had abstained from pressing forward with the others, in compliance with the Chief Baron's own wish ; but his Noble and Learned Friend had not yet expressed, to his knowledge, any opi• nion, either in public or private, against the measure now proposed ; nor did he believe that the Noble and Learned Baron did intend to object to it ; at least, nothing up to that day had been uttered by his Noble and Learned Friend which would lead hint to anticipate the opposition which it was now insinuated he had reason to expect. The Duke of WELLINGTON said he had not come to any opinion on the measure, and therefine was not pre pared to oppose it. All that he sought was, that a lair opportunity, and a reasonable length of time, might be afforded for its tutquate discussion. Lord ELLENHOROUGII was of opinion that his Noble and Learned Friend (Lyndhurst) had certainly ex presses! a wish t.o be present at the discussion of some stage of the Bill, if not on every occasion when it should regularly conic under the consideration of the House. It a ppeared to him, notwithstanding what had fallen from the Learned Lord on the Wool,ack, that the Chief Baron did entertain considerable doubts as to the expediency of this measure, which he had described as containing little good that was at the same time new, while whatever it had of novelty was not good, but quite the reverse, and ought not to he adopted. Such being the opinion which, to the best of his recollection, his Learned Friend had already intimated, it was only fair that the House should be given an opportunity of hearing his sentiments on the details of the which were really of a very difficult and cotnpli eated character. If in:the course of thefifteen days during which the Noble and Learned Lord hirnsulf hail directed his attention to the subject, so many alterations had sug gested themselves to his mind, was it not equally probable that other imperfections might attract th e n oti c e o f Noble Lords who enjoyed sim i l ar advantages of professional edu cation ?—( Hear. r a , , )_Lay aaem , ers were not competent to pronounce upon the merits of legal details, however capable might be to d ec id e upon the principle abstractedly; and it was consequently desir,bl e th at t h ey s h ou ld ava il themselves niselves of the advice of two of the ablest and most learned men who had ever held the seals of England, to whom they might rifer as being fortunately Peers of their Lou dships' House. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he was most anxious that the present discussion s h ou ld not go forth to t h e pu bli c as stigmatising this Bill, with the censure of a Noble and Learned Lord who was not in his place to state his opinions for himself. The Noble and Learned Baron who had just spoken happened en , irely to misunderstand what had been uttered by the Chief Baron, as th ; latter Noble Lord had merely said that he had intended by his Bill to alter the sittings of the Masters in Chancery, and the mode of taking evidence, and referred to the third measure as that in which he was principally interested. If the discussion should not be taken until the termination of the circuit, such a delay would amount to the recognition of a prin. ciple which might be carried hereafter to an extent that no one could undertake to limit. He would, however, in quire when the circuit was likely to end ; and if he found that the postponement of the last stage of the Bill for a few days longer would give the Noble and Learned Lord an opportunity of attending, he should have no objection to such an arrangement. Meanwhile he should only observe that the Noble and Learned Lord had not yet on any oc casion exnressed hiinselflic:mtil e to the measure. Lord ELLENBOROUGH apprehend e d that his Noble and Learned Friend bad intimated do u bt s respect i ng t h e propriety ietyofthe principle on whi c h t h e Bi l l was founded. e WYNFORD said that the Chief Baron bad not actually pronounced a decided judgment on this Bill ; but he certainly appeared to incline to the opi n i on ascr ib e d ti , him by his 'Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Ellenborough.) The Bill was then ordered to be re-committ e d that day se'nnight. On' the motion of the Earl of SITAFTESISUR Y , several private Bills were forwarded a stage.—Adjourned at a Quarter-past Seven. Cumberland Wellington Aberdeen LIST OF Beresford Monson Manners Clanwifiatn Wicklow MINORITY. Bute Dela warr Strangford Rolle Redesdale Farnham Salisbury Kenyon NN'ynford, Rosslyn Ellenborough HO USE OF COMMONS, MARcH 14. The SPEAKER took the Chair recisely at Three o'clock, LONDONDERRY ELECTION. Sir C. HULSE brought up the report of the CAninittee on the Londonderry Election, which dec'ared the election of Sir Robert Alexander Ferguson for that city to be null and void, and a new writ was ordered to be issued. Mr. DUGDAI,E brought up the report of the Com mittee on the St. Martin's (Birmingham) Burial Ground Bid. Sir ALEXANDER HOPE presented a petition from Linlithgow in favour of Reform. Sir ROBERT BATESON presented petitions from Carrickfergus, and several other places, against negro sla very. Lord WM. POULETT presented petitions from Sunder land and Smith Shields, against the proposed alteration in the timber duties. REFORM. General GASCOYNE presented a ptition in favour of Parliamentary Reform from Liverpool. The Gallant General said the petition was signed by more than eleven thousand of the inhabitants of that town, and although it did not express their entire concurrence in the measure proposed by Ministers, yet they hailed with de light the plan of transferring the elective franchise from close boroughs to large and populous towns. He knew from experience that it was no easy task for one or two representatives to discharge the duties of a consti tuency like Liverpool. He thought, therefore, it was well deserving of the House to cansider whether it would ❑ot be advisable to give more Alembers to the large towns.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Liverpool alone paid more taxes than the whole kingdom of Ireland put together, and it contained more houses entitled to the elective fran chise than either the counties of Bedford, Buckingham, Cambridge, or Hertford.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He disagreed with some parts of the Bill, and to the details of the measure should give his decided opposition.—(llear, hear.) If it was necessary to transfer the franchise to large towns, he did nut see why sixty boroughs should be selected and thrown indiscriminately overboard. There was not a single petition that prayed for any such step. He agreed however that some Reform was neces sary—(Hear)—and he had no hesitation in saying that in his opinion, if the present measure was not carried, it would lead to some other plan of Reform that would be adopted by the House before the expiration of another year. Mr. EWART said there never was a petition more re spectably signed. He fully and warmly supported the prayer of the petitioners in favour of the measure brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers. He considered it a measure calculated to confer one of the greatest boons on the country. Notwithstanding what had fallen from the Gallant General, he could assure she House that the inhabitants of Liverpool were decidedly in favour of the proposed plan of Reform. Sir E. B. SUGDEN hoped that some Hon. Members in supporting Reform would not forget the excessive bribery that took place at some elections.—(Cries of " hear.") Mr. J. WOOD said the Bill did not lose sight of that. Mr. C. CALVERT presented a petition from South walk, in favour of Parliamentary Reform. The Ho. Insurable Member then said that the petition had been agreed to at the largest meeting ever held in that borough fcr the last twenty-five years, and that without a dissen- tient voice.—(llear.) The petitioners were decidedly in favour of the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, and he thought he might add that nine-tenths of them were also favourable to the vote by ballot. He (Mr. Calvert) considered that a more perfect system of Reform could not have been proposed, and it should have his most cordial support. Sir R. WILSON supported the petition, and bore Vs tiniony to the unaninsity that prevailed in its favour, and to an address that was to be presented to his Majesty, but he denied that the majority of the borough were fa vourable to the ballot. Mr. CALVERT presented another petition from the parish of St. George the Martyr, expressing the delight of the petitioners at the plan of Ministers to transfer the elective franchise from rotten boroughs to large towns. Mr. BARLOW HOY presented a petition from South ' ampton, against the proposed tax on steam. Sir J. MACDONALD presented a petition in favour of the plan of Reform. After a few words from Mr. C. PELHAM and Mr. Y. PEEL, Mr. HUNT considered many of the electors of Caine as rotten electors as any in any borough in the kingdom, at least such was their reputation a few years since. He had made the same observation a few evenings ago, which he understood was 'Afterwards alluded to by the Hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Yates Peel). In the course of that Hon. Member's observations he noticed his (Mr. Hunt's) trade. had he been present he should no doubt have answered those observations ; but all he would say now was, that his (Mr. Hunt's) father was the first of the family who was a retired tradesman, whilst the Hon. Member's father was the first of the family that ever obtained the rank of a tradesman.—(Great laughter.) Mr. BAYLEY presented a petition front Bristol, pray ing for a repeal of the corn laws. Mr. CURTEIS said, the plan of Reform introduced by Ministers had been so carefully framed as to protect all interests of the State. lie should therefore give it his most cordial support. An HoN. MExiiiEn, whose name we could not learn, said, in his opinion the Bill would give such a preponde rating influence to the agricultural interests, that no re peal of the corn laws need ever be expected by the country. He should therefore oppose it. Mr. I3INGLEY presented a p,itition front the Cham ber of Commerce at Bristol, praying for a repeal of the duty on sugar. Colonel LYG ON presented a petition from Dudley, iu favour of the plan of Reform, and another from Eveshamn against the Disfranaiselmnt Bill. Lord ALTI10111 ) moved the order of the day for callin; over Barnes of the defaulters on Friday last. DUTY ON COTTON WOOL. Lord ALTHOHP, in answer to a question put by Lord G. Somerset, stated that he did not mean to oppose Sir John Newport taking precedence with his motion of what stood before him in the paper. Afterw•atds he should, as he had given notice on a former night, move in the first place the Customs Bill for introducing the duty en cotton wool. COAL DUTY. Lord ALTHORP also stated that the orders had been given from the Custom-house respecting the coal dnty, and that there was no further dif f iculty repecting it. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON sta:ed that he had no ob jection to la the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir John New port) proceed with his motion, of which he had given notice, but he thought it right to state to the House that he (Mr. Alderman Thompson) had given notice three or lour times of his intention to bring forward a petition of the ship-owners on the North America❑ station. For the purpose of doing so, he had at tended four or five time 3, end occasionally as early as half-past nine o'clock in the morning, but still he had not had an opportunity of bringing it forward. It was his intention to have laid the petition before the House o❑ the Speaker's leaving the Chair to-night, for the House to go into a Committee of Supply, should he not have an opportunity of previously presenting it, but he should not do so, nor further interrupt the Right lion. Bar. net, if the Ctianct nor of the Exchequer would allow him to present the petition to-morrow before publie business began, even should it be past five o'clock. Lord ALTHORP would raise no objection to the Ifin. Member presenting the petition to-morrow, after titre o'clock. FIRST-FRUITS' FUND IN IRELAND. Sir JOHN NEWPORT then proceeded with his mo tion of first fruits. He said, that at the time of the Re formation the first fruits belonged to the Crown, but were made over to the clergy by Queen Anne, for the purpose of enabling them to build and repair the church e s ; to this purpose, however, they were not found adequate, so that ul the burtlien which ought to be provid e d for out o' el SP6 first fruits re a lly f e ll upon th e peop l e, w hi c h was the objection a bl e i n I re l an d, as so l arge a port i on o f the PW:s lotion consi s t e d o f R oman Calmlics and Dissenters 4 P. l " , the Established Church. The real cause of this herd s :, oppressively f e lt by th e peop l e was, b ecause t he va lu : h : ti m e of the first fr u it s s till rema i ne d t h e same t h at it VW r " , ;( first made ; so th a t now w h at was ca ll e d t h e fist was scarcely more than nominal. The Right 1 0 ° 3-e t o ' )0 Baronet referred t o a var i e t y of documents to s''// lily the benefices were improp er ly ra t e d, an d s h o wed tb 3 , ore i tl 4t ° patentee of the offi ce o f fi rs t f ru i ts h a d b ee n c el l (0( IS t „ ti c for doing his d u ty. O t h er peop l e were h l -" °. lo t ,: neglect—he W AS bl ame d f or his cal. It WAS t ilne o bt wo.ei the wealth properly belonging to the State s hon e ', o , ot ot devoted to th a t purpose f or which it had been int°oo e rg and neither the Consolidated Fund, nor Parlil l° ol st . (if Sar grants, nor local t axa ti on oug h t to had reerol to for ecclesiastical purposes till the whole of 111 , e thef first fruits were app ropr i ate d as i t was i nte adeo at e t - ~ c a n should be. Ile believed that i n th e mot i on he tea s b lgb' Par to make, lie consulted th e i n t eres t s o f th e c h urc h e sl ' l 4 of ment. If the clergy were acquainted with the sig' i t - p i the times in w hi c h we li ve , they would be careful ° l ig insist to o p er ti nac i ons l y on c l a i ms that were in 01 , 1' 1 , 51 d0 Fri he to the claims of the State and the poor. He had" l ' t ,i up his proposition in such a form, lie believed, a I r eo ; CI ! be liable to objections. He proposed to move an •A;"' h ' to the Crown, detailing at length all the facts wlii had brought before the House, and which were con e f, - ,i! with this subject, and praying his Majesty, in 01 " . " 1 ,)!IC 1 ' render these first fruits efficient for the purposes for ' l ') they were granted, that he would direct a reference t lio t 11 0 .4. made to the law officers of the Crown to ascertaln,'ol Pa were legal to make a new and complete valuation ( I,llk on t ru first fruits, exempting from the payment all h 1 one hundred pounds and under, in order out of th e° oll I, 7 't make good deficiencies in th e revenue f or ec clesil° 1 1 ,,,!. purposes, s o th a t t h ey m i g h t no l onger be defraYe'.o grants from Parliament, or by local taxation. The 11 ' q -41. 11 Hon. Baronet concluded by moving such an address' C4Z l la t i , Mr. STANLEY secon d e d t h e mot i on. S' illr. of G th O e U ß L i ß o U it liN llo i n l . id B n i a r t on p e r e e s cis m el o y tio u n nd a e n rs d ts object :?1, to know what h e meant b y exempting benefices than one hundred pounds ? Sir JOHN NEWPORT was understood to say 01 :101 1 } lkj - ° wished the first fruits of all benefices above 1001. 1 'C 4 1 to be accurately valued. y cal Wal Mr. GOULBURN, with that explanation, rno 1 „,c 1 • ik ' fi t4ll nounce the views of the Ri g ht B on . B aronet to b e stitutional. lie did not know why, as he presurne u t i o s l ,„. I ' 4 his Majesty's p r es e nt Mi n i sters approve d of this Lio„, they could not dir ec t th e L aw Offi cers to make 14!volSeir.,qiiie% cessary inquirie s . H e th oug h t t h e mot i on was con ll ; ii iill i fth neither with public advantage nor justice ; he should the motion. Th e Ri g h t H on . B aronet was in ert01;01 supposing that the first fruits formerly were the ° e r annual income of b e nefices. It was a l so an error to P er pose that the Acts of Parliament which empowered 'iv missioners to appr o p r i a t e t h e fi rst fru i ts gave any I°ol to the Commissioners to ascertain the value of th e tilj fruits. if he followed the strict letter of the lel o ol should oppos e th e mot i on ; b ut i f the Government et)) to ask fu r th er l ega l a d v i ce on the subject, to that h e r° make no objection. 1 it e r Sir Joss N EWPORT an d M r . GOULBORNRai plained. Mr. LEADER was one of those who wished the cle l , o at all times to possess a competent provision, and I ' B l, o not, therefor e , v er y lik e l y to consent to anyth i ng tiro might tend to despoil them of their right; but be ce p tainly thought th a t th e c h urc h o f I re l and and t h e es , ) would be benefitted by some better regulation and Pil e of the produce of the first ft uits. At the present merit, and for the last eighteen years, the greatest a b a and neglect were visible with respect to its collection. the diocese of Armagh, which contained parishes CO 300,000 acres, the whole produce of the fund for the bro ,l eighteen years w as on l y 4,0001 . I n t h e di oceses o f IN fj,t' Cashel, and Tu am , th e amount was equally sm all, if although the whole of these dioceses contained 2, 0 0 01 rishes, and ther e h a d b een 1 , 300 promot i ons, t h e p r of the first fruits' fund was only 9,0001. in eighteen Y e lt el 1,200 parishes, containing 600,000 acres, had been alla i p to compound th e p a y ments t o t h e f un d f or a mer e ° Ar il He was sati s fi e d th at t h e regu l ar payment o f the fruits, and the appli ca ti on o f th e i r pro d uce to i ts l e git' objects, would tend to relieve the church from in° 51 the odium which at present attached to the working t l e rs the vestry system, and that the removal of the vet" which it produced would be hailed with joy in Irell° the harbinger of peace and tranquillity.—(Hear.) tg Mr. LEFROY did not see why the clergy shot) to o subjected to the payment of a tax of this description! of one which was no t l ev i e d f rom any ot h er profes34;al office. If the clergy were in all cases to pay the of year's incom e t o th e Fi rst F ru i ts ' F un d , h e di d not seer) his Majesty' s Mi n i s t ers s h ou ld not a l so pay to son ael e, , r o their first year's income on accepting office, or the e lP t d of the army s acr ifi ce th e i r fi rst year ' s pay. lie pro te against taking from men who stood so much in 0 ' 0 4! their income—men without property, and i n manY having large families to provide fur, the whole of_ ar se first year' s e a rn i ngs . I t was crue l , vexat i ous, an d T oi l sive. If the c l ergy were to pay t hi s tax on t h e i r why not collect it from year to year, instead of te /I , l ji s at once.—(Hear, hear.)—That would be just! pia a would he in accord ance w i t h t h e pr i nc i p l es o f COk e e el an income tax on other kinds of property. Whoever b/ indeed indeed of a wh o l e year ' s i ncome b e i ng taken as an Jnitelsi tax ?—(Hear, bear.) H e did not see e i t h er , w hy t' tett al impropri a t or an d t h e rema i n d er man, who has an i° in the lay tithes, should not be compelled to pay n t ss , e l the repairs and erect i ng o f c h urc h es, as well as t he 0 man. O t Mr. STANLEY d en i e d t h at t h ere was anyt hing . ! ov at motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman which laid l'oaa to the clau s e of illegality brought against it by theoo the Member for th e U n i vers i ty o f D u bli n ( L e f roy ). ' contrary, the sol e o bj ec t o f t h e mot i on was f or an 34,,.11,` to the Crown t o t a k e th e op i n i on o f i ts l aw o ffi cer s ! ',lle purpose of asce r t a i n i ng w h et h er i t was or was not Jenioo collect the fir s t f ru it s ; an d, on t h e resu l t o f t h a t 0 1%.10 1 it would then be open to the House to determin e v or t coulme was to be p ursue d. A s to t h e c h arge o f t pressiv e n e s s o f th e tax , sure l y t h e Hon. Member n"l' . d (ss l . have heard the declaration of his Right Hon. Frier F e' J. Newp or t) t h at i t was not i ntended to deman d the ment from the i ncum b ent o f any li v i ng under 100 b 3., ), of! What was the t a x, t oo ? A tax on t h e accep tant' f living ; and was it not natural that the Parliamen t ° P ro' country should be called on to devise means for aP tlu O priating this fund to its origin.l purposes? The 4° rl o ' Wes, how far the first composition was final and ( " ot sive. That was a point of law, on which he did ° t hat competent to pronounce ; but it appeared to .hini t al to would be very strange if a clergyman were wal T3 ,' ) ale bind his successors for ever. It would surely ' se a th s , reasonable to suppose that the clergyman who Wet bee composition bound only himself. It was clear th e had been repeatedly new valuations in Ireland in the 4 of El z :b o th, Ja mes I. & c. to ip , o 9) to ' 0 Sir R. PEEL c onten d e d t h at i t was w h o ll y '` r!! to agree to the r eso l ut i ons w i t h out h av i ng titre P ° ' le i con•ider them. It wou ld be infinitely better to P,l re ls all discussion upo n th e po li cy of time subject until officers had given their opinion. Mr. STANLEY observed, in explanation, that solutions were only grounds for a future Bill. a t l e i Mr. O'CONNELL ma i nta i ne d t h at i t was o f g re r - ti P v portance to th e peop l e o f Ireland to have it deteid whether th ere was not a legal fund, out of W' u 0 0 l e f churches should Ise repaired, instead of imposing tt ide t , people at large th e b ur d en o f ta ki ng care o f t h e 0° buildings, the inside of which they never saw• cor m s pressed his surprise at hearing the Hon. and 0°, 1 ,1 Member fur the University of Daslin ask if it A t !, D e i l e s common-law burden on the parishes in Irelan d v r o ,o l and repair the churches? It was not a common - di, either in Ireland or in England. It was a burden 00 , 4, by pat ticular Statutes. The common-law division third of the repairs of the church, a third fur Is1, 0 1; e tr o and a third f or the poor; but n ow th e clergYt"'"'a v e a Y e t he It was cert a i n l y true that within the last tw enty - ' i more churches had been built in Ireland than ( „, i ' 0 0 0 ; precedin g th ree h undred years. No less than 6 3 `''..; e e) the publi c money h a d b een granted for that in if i i eo c v e ma l the Establi s h e d Ch urc h i n Ireland were not ric h g ifts r e without. A port i on o f th i s bad been expended badpro donation s; among . et h ers, Lord Oriel, poor Ina n t ' e lmer e s' ceived 2,000/. Thi s d ou b l i ng of the P r westati /r ob f o g , t a accounted for a gr ea t d ea l o f t h e poverty of t ile the santry. Pari s h es , stimulated by th e a r c hitect! ao f t he the painter, th e glazier, &e. applied to the 13 00 Fruits for a lo in, which, when the church wns li t : ri 1, 0 00 0 p inhabita n t. had to repay. T o The II9n• , t he Cc to‘' Gentleman proceeded to aigue that the title w ho, ed, to the property in question w as p er fectlY e s proof of the manner in which the rates "'e re site r rity instanced the parish of Ivragh, in which tic acrd %tor thousand inhabitants, of whom only tn'er'Y 1 1,e 1% • t lls ot testauts. Of those twenty, tif;een were 01 c ra te t Guard ; so that five persons actually levied t s "_ iiit in: r igh whole si r I p t a . ri i s N h ( ! a, l strongl ylm e that su i wrestle° (! t he a ' would be submitted to the Law Officers 0 00 0..0 o f the o galos without any incutnbrance of the opinion Mr. SPRING RICE said that if the L a "' sta g the Crown did their duty properly, as he was ip th u e rted the re u f jegacirofa f) I._'.tL ?I hi ll lyi ti gain rt,), 5, the t ''''. It( Ivi, lA*. Ick gi 1 141 ►Lo