The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-23 00:00:00

litk,t the slight es t i ntent i on to say anyth i ng painful to ilt:4 feelings the only three M em b ers o f t h at H ouse PehJtt been called to account, in his experience, Were? it e n "aoutable Baronet, Member fur Southwark; the; inarable Baronet, "Member for Westminster; and Lord! 17Crane t • all three representing popular places. When ir._:)latisidered all these things, was it surprising that hej t ld" hesit a t e bef ore h e cou ld agree to so total a change :rep resentat i ve System as that at present conteto-, ' ted•--(Hear, hear.) But he s h ou ld b e to ld, t h at . ,Lever valuable many of the Members for boroughs had tl7i-and might be, still they were not representatives of! NaPeople. He would ask those who said so, what they 'e l f t r by the term " representative ?" Did they wish to l i t ul that House the representatises of the moral, or of Physical force—the representatives of the good sense, °f the passions of the people ? For the good sense of ' it it e °Ple he had a great respect; for their pa ss i ons none. h ang could be More unf oun d e d than any suppos i t i on E lie Wished to shut the feelings of the people out of s e !Luse. Th e difficulty was to admit those feeliugs in Or due proportion. What did the e ask which I:Parliatnent, as at present constituted peopl , had not show n e'Pesitio n to grant ? Was it a reduction of taxation ? e t r the p eace no l ess t h an t hi rty-one m i l li ons of taxes i k _been taken off. Was it a reduction of petronsge ? In ,Years n o f ewer t h an f our t h ousan d p l aces had been t l, e d ti e ; the salaries of fifty- e i g ht o f w hi c h were f rom N e a three thousand pounds per annum. Not only bad „ i aatnent done their duty in those respects ; but they ' e e ealled for returns which the people could not other- t - T h ave obtained. What m ore any ot h er d escr i pt i on of tiler/lent could effect he was not prepared to sa y. ,r. WYSE said, that the Hon. M em b er h a d quote d I , ettone, in favour of hi s abh orrence o f i nnovat i on ; b ut ,7 had rend Blackstone longer and more truly, he would in many, very many places, passages in favour of ilrertirrri ; It had been said, t oo , th at L oc k e was opposed • , t ' ; yet in his work up on Gov e r nmen t, h e o b - te; 7 ' in his chapter concerning the subordination of the 4of the Comm onwea l t h :—" For it being the i n • t , Is well as the intention of the people to have a fair :i-eifecti representation, whoever brings it nearest to that, k: tin.loubted friend to, and establisher of the Govern ftad cannot miss the consent and approbation of the Cation What then, did flora. Members me a n by ? It was th e goo d ne - s or b a d ness of revolution Was to be regarded. The question was—whether useful or not. If they meant by revolution, a tor eif t struggle fur the alteration of all existing institutions V t ‘ l . 4 7 meant a struggle carri e d on by a f ac tion aga i ns t Q e l and feeling of the majerity—a struggle to be con te4ted by brute force—a struggle promoted by selfish t,4l fl ordid men , w h o were str i v i ng for their own indivi qtiratPage and happines s , and not for the comfort and l e , 0 1 the people at l a r ge —if t hi s was w h at t h ey meant i'''"hrti en , he repelled such a revolution ; but if by re qa they meant a change incidental to all good Con 'ileflna--the very susceptibility of ;alteration being pro. of in a goo d C onst i tut i on, lest i t a l one s h ou ld h e I:7re while time was moving all things around it ; if 14101ution they meant the removal of diseased parts, the :e off excrescences which affected the soundness, and k til Yed the fair proportions of the whole, and which t be cut away without the creation of deformity, or 'ar aff ect i ng, i n t h e least, the vital principle ; he hailed t rer elution, and welcomed it as the promi seo f a b r i g h ter ;:r us and our posterity. He contentlad that there pthing dangerous or unusual in a change in the Con.- ' '''n such as th it proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. Principle, that the laws of England should not be t d, was proclaimed, but had never been acted upon. :fail, history was nothing but the record of perpetual 1 --- incessant revolution. Struggle followed struggle; i i.`"bent was heaped upon amendment ; first there was i Ni - i t ultele between the King and the Barons—the great 1 : (if the Crown ; they having sunk beneath the seep el :e st ruggle was made between the overgrown power 14 1( log and the people, wiicli ended in the overturn ththe Throne and the establishment of the Common lip, From the return of th e St uar t s t o th e access i on tient 111. the struggle still was between the mon th,taoregetive and power of the Crown and . th e rights i to A.; and from the revolution, during a ll su ?se , a 4 e; and especially in the reign of the Georges, il'aegle had been against that influence under which , li w. hewed, but were striving to shake themselves elf' then, Hon. Members taunted the supporters 01 ot as being the advocates of Revolution, they must t the history of England. Respecting the excite hlhhich prevailed throughout the country, be oh , that it It td been said it was raised by the Govern ''hut th ey who made such an assertion knew not the ''' tnind. It was net the Ministers who had excited the ' t rehich then pervaded the land, but it was this feeling kad called the Afinisters into existence. It was the :onviction of the necessity of Reform, and the a rd en t ale it, which was telt to be hopelessly entertained •• e ie t he sway of th e l ate Ad m i n i strat i on, that te t "Thaned the Ministers to their place,. They were i',llita'ors—they were the organs of the p eo pl e .— -' e 'r..)—lle most anxiously deprecated delay in the i ia of the measure so earnestly sought for by the , England, for lie f e lt th at t h e d e l ay i n t h e con ' IZ I 2, Catholi c emanc i pat i on, and not the concession il' - '' q Produced the feeling of dissatisfaction which yet i Nti la. Ireland. If concession had been made sooner, tre e , tare produced its natural effect, and they would k it hav e the relics of agitation in Ireland.' The Hon. 4t \ t th . Vp en proceeded to draw a distinction between the kttlitanee previ ous t o t h e revo l ut i on , an d t h at o f Eng ykfel Present momen t ; b ut i n consequence o f t h e no i se fins that prevailed, we cannot eretend to follow e I , 44 _ e conclud e d by declaring he would vote far the , e 'z k zlng of the Bill. I N . Ii p ,'ATESON regarded it as a strange thing that 04 41 7 till for Ireland should be brought in merely l'S t: t e t ete Post the Bill already brou g ht f orwar d b y t h e AN* Being an Irishman, having all his property ,e'ttliand re p res enting an Irish county, he could not '''ett,•('eurse pursued by his Alajesty's Ministers in this .4 414 110 4,8 unnoticed, for even in the momentous gene ) to L EI he consid e r e d th e measure , as a ff ect i ng Ire ' 4 t o y °f great i m p or t ance . T oo muc h b a d b een lasel.Personal motives swaying the votes of Hon. ii ofi l ! for himself he disclaimed all motive but the I t t vi i , tr e l : e euntry.—(H ear , hear.) He knew his consti e e' e t 'livid e d on t h e quest i on, b ut h e wou ld , never .' ti: l ils duty conscientiously and fearlessly, and h e i,4 be afraid at a future period to face them. He 'hs t i vr 'eafe fur s a f e an d mo d era t e R e f orm . If t h e 'rti t o e onC4l.needed to be remodelled, it certainly should b e L , a manner so crude and hasty as that pr0).4'1.18 ).4'1.18 Maj es t y ' s Mi n i sters ; an d f or hi s part, if ter nocljlled, he wished to have it effected so than , alCuatkid give, u n lik e t h e N o bl e L or d' s , permanent Ni t n e i l The Reform proproed by the Noble Lord, it Ye Y, Y evident, ident, must cease to g iv e s ati s f ac ti on in y 4-.l'll t ime, Heagreed with the N o bl e L or d, th a t ta t ," not pop u l at i on s h ou ld b e t h e b as i s o f t h e 41 : but b e conside re d th e 101. rate much too low. L il ill would, an d must be brought in by whatever L4ll°lild sit upon those benches. Ref o rm in Par tslitrika. neeessa r y ; and he much lam en t e d th a t th e Ni,44tration did not decide upon conceding a calm, OOi l liz and temperate Reform in proper time.— 1 1 ) And he thought that by hesitating so to tin some measure, brought the couatry into heli e lit ate of excitement—(Lout cheers)—and he t itts,- 7 "ds that the present Ministry had incurred an t.,...ri'tibility by bringing forward this sweeping to ,`,'. (1,1 ;1 and continued cheers.)—lfe had no ob tkihr i lisfranehisetnent of the rotten boroughs; 12',0 ' 0 4te 'ity boroughs because they happened not 4 0 1 ,,, v tclaahitants, alth oug h th e e l ec t ors m i g ht b e tri t - 1 b and independent as those of Westminster or '4 3 ," consid ere d a gross i n j ust i ce . — (Ch eers. ) ; i e atu joation boroughs, he wished to see thins de 'iti , a aitty and retrenchment he desired to pro :titl'are9 and Undeserved pensions, whether for men : tsja---(flear and laughter)—he had no object kt,atinihilated. ; but to the Reform Bill proposed k c ie Lord he could not agree.—(Cheers.) tti tj tuen T , CHA RLES had given a voluntary pledge )6, , " upon the hustings, which he now rose .t.s t i i i ,Es:lazing his determination to vote for the ti l 'it t :g of the Bill. He entirely concurred in the ;C.ets.,at cf the close boroughs. theca'EREAGH had been entrusted with a pea. t‘t, ilfhurlty of Down in favour of Reform, signed ii,.4 co nstituents; but be could not take upon t directly in opposition to the dictates ot los N; 44 1 ; iti ( d ebe ers.)—The petition to which he had tVs ,i t4t ri did all the petitions of the same de- I titi4lo ti ,. s ePc. embraced a number of topics. lie 11 0 4 44; a° lll e of the points referred to, as well in \t ' to 1 4 ' hitt county entrusted to himself, as from t its 1 1 48 Hon. Friend, and he would now read L lt at ~1 40, that it might tee in what light the It f really to he viewed. 'These petiti""' k itt 4 4 ) , iko't t riennial Parliaments—for the vote by S E Ni . 4 1 .,"', Y and retrenchment—for the repeal of ",!s i t e h " 'le hoped the Government would be en -14'IakTiis,,fel/1 by a better Budget)—for a heave-graduted 1 , Itt i tli 4 4 . the total abolition of tithes, and : 4 ilicitikit4letta sinecurists, like the Dean of Dromoie, \ t iit ik a Year, as they stated, for doing nothing. 4 ' l ; L . 1,, , to support a measure of mole ,. kit % tie certainly was not prepared to g ive . eiteure which overturned the whole struc- 11. . - ill bellee tore of the Constitution. He objected, however, not to Reform generally, but to the Bill of his Majesty's Minis ters; and he objected to the - Bill for many reasons, with, which he would not trouble the House, as they had been, already stated, and especially, because it would have a most mischievous effect-in Ireland,- which he complained had kern • treated with as little respect 'as the borough of Evesham. The diisolution -with which they were threatened had no tenors for him. The - visit to those who had sent them there must come sooner or later, and whether it was to morrow (which he did not believe)--(Hear, hear)—or a more distant day, made little difference--whether it came within a month, or not within a year, mattered little, for their conduct, while they Satin that House, was always before their constituents. Mr. SHAW said he should have been ready to give his support to any measure of a gradual Reform, but not to this, which he confessed, seemed to him to have been aptly designated as somewhat revolutionary. It struck at the root of vested rights and chartered liberties, which, at all times and under all circumstances, had been held sacred ; which had been respected for centuries as part of the Bri tish Constitution itself. The disfranchisement of the non. resident 40s. freeholders was as dust in the balance, com pared to the power given to the lower classes by the Bill. —(Question.) That power would be shown at any fu ture election; and the influence of the lion. and Learned Member for Waterford would he materially increased, by this measure. That influence which he now used to pro mote the repeal of the Union weelil be then strengthened, and strengthened, too, for a purpose to which the present Government professed themselves opposed. The conse quence of increasing that influence would he justly attri butable to that very Government which must be answer able for its effects. —(Hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL and several other Members rose at once ; and, after sonic little confusion, , the Hon. and Learned Member, having obtained a pre ference, said that he was extremely anxious to make some f e w observations on the Bill in its present stage. He had been prevented from doing so in an early part of the even ing by the absence of his Hon. and Learned Friend who had made so able and ingenious a speech last evening, and to whom he wished to offer some few observation, in reply. Fe regretted that his Hon. and Learned Friend was still absent, but he felt that it was his duty to lose no more time in offering. his opinions to the House. He was happy to be able to do so at this moment, for it might be great vanity, or it might be the extreme partiality he felt to the task he had undertaken, but he had some expecta tion of being able to convert an opponent into a friend. The Hon. and Gallant Admiral, the Member for Notting hamshire, whom he believed be might call his Hon. Friend, having heard this question debated for seven nights in the former stage of this Bill, and having then made up his mind as to the vote he should give, had been since entirely•convinced of the impropriety of his fist opi nion, and now intended to vote the other way. That Hon. and Gallant Admiral, bad now withdrawn from the pre sence of the House.—(No, no, and loud cheers.)—He begged pardon—he meant, as his Hon. Friend knew, no disrespect, for he could only speak of and to that Hon. and Gallant Admiral with respect, and he was happy to see the Gallant Admiral now present ; for, as the Gal lant Admiral had expressed a doubt whether the opi nion he had stated at an earlier period of the debate was correct, it was to be hoped, that after that frank and manly avowal of a supposed error, he might, on a careful re-consideration of the matter, be induced to believe that the new impression he had adopted was erroneous.—(Hear, no.)—He was sure that it was impossible for any gentleman to treat with more jus tice the sentiments of his constituents than did the Hon. and Gallant Admiral ; for he had stated with regard to this most important measure, that a great county meeting had been held in the county he represented, and that al: most every respectable gentleman in the county was pre sent at it, and that the resolutions adopted at the meeting. were unanimously in favour of this measure. The Hon. and Gallant Admiral had not stated that that unanimity had been produced by intimidation or violence of conduct; on the contrary, he had mfeclered that every man freely ut tered his sentiments, as freely as in that other county meet ing in Berkshire, where an Hon. Gentleman stood alone declaring his oppositien to this measure, and was kindly and cordially received in a way due to his character upon all occasions, and especially to the manly candour with which he stated his difference from his constituents. That single dissentient was llstened to with that respect which his character, and that confidence which his principles and his manliness of conduct naturally inspired. If such was the feeling of the enlightened persons who assembled at this county meeting, and if there and in every assembly, ex cept that which he bad the honour of addressing—(No, no!)—there was an unanimous sentiment in favour of this measure—(No, nu !)—if, in - every one of these instances, without intimidation and without violence, but after a calm, a full, and a deli'-crate discussion, these respectable gentlemen found themselves in a minority against the voters, there must be something in that Bill, or in the na ture of society, of a most whensieml and unintelligible kind, which showed the people to be mistaken upon the point of their own interests, and the judgment of Members of that House to be infallible in a case in which it was im possible they could be strictly impartial or unbiassed. (Hear, and no, no !) He put it to every gentleman —to those who were affected by this measure, immediately, or by its remote effete, calmly to take the circumstances he had just mentioned into their consideration, and to ask themselves whether there was not that in the peculiar na ture of their situation which created the tumult of °pp°. sition in that House to a "measure so universally approved of by the great body of the people of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He asked them, too, whether it was not likely that, on such a eubject, the people of England were more correct in their ideas than the Hon. Members who op posed the tneasure; and whether, at least, the people were not unbiassed by particular interests, and influenced only by a wish to see the country prosperous .and well go verned.—(Cheers.) The speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite had been one which proceeded on the principle of imputation. The Hon. and Learned Gentle. man seemed to think that he had found the key to the in troduction of that measure in the interests of the Ministry, and that he had nothing to do but to repeat, in support of his supposed discovery, the assertion that there was a strange coincidence—a remarkable state of things, that conspired, with time interests of the Ministers. In this manner he seemed to think that be could solve the diffi culty of the introduction of this measure. , He was mis taken in all this. The n aural and simple cause of the introduction of the Bill was the necessity which the mini versa) wish of the people imposed upon the Government. Ile (the Attorney-General) might be permitted to bear testimony to a fact of some importance, to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had alluded when he stated his supposition that some alteration had been made in the fa brication of this Bill. He knew not in what way the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had supposed that, with wrong mind and 'doubtful policy, the Government had been induced to make these alterations, or what was the motive fer them ; but he was able to state positively that for five weeks, at least, ho had hid the instruc tions to draw this Bill in his hands—and, on his honour, he could declare that no alterations had been made, not even-in .the most minute details, except in par ticulars not of time lest cimsequence to' the Bill, and not such, indeed, as to le eve. him any recollection of their nit tuns The instructions he then received were precise, - and those he put into the form of the Bill as it now stood, as he was desired to do, and this fact at once got rid of what had been said about about the alterations that had taken place, after it had been submitted to, and had re ceived the sanction of, the Cabinet. " Olt (said his Hon. and Learned Friend), it is impossible to conceive anything so extremely irregular —so unprecedented —so improper— so inadmissible, as that advice should be given that no alteration should be proposed, lest the safety of the Bill should be endangered." However inadmissible or irregu lar that course might be, it certainly was not unprece dented. because only two years ago it had been taken by the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends upon that great mea sure—second only in importance to the present—the Ca • tho!ic Relief Bill. A tilt eting of the supporters of the plan had taken place, and there it had been given out that the fate of the Bill would be risked by any attempt to alter its provisions. He (the Attorney-General) did not mean to speak positively and decisively upon this point, but he knew that such had been stated to be the fact in societies where he was in the habit of conver e i ng . For his Hon and Learred Friend to bring this charge forward, and to attempt to make it a successful hit, as an imputation against Ministers, was indeed to have great confidence in the willingness of his audience to be eatis. fied•—(Hear.) Having so far succeeded, perhaps beyond his hopes, his Hen. and Learned Friend ventured a step farther, and asserted that the present Bill was introduced fur the purpose of keeping Ministers in power. It was asserted that they were the persons who had raised the storm, which could only be allayed by the mighty influence of this measure, and that without it the present servants of the Crown must inevitably quit their places. He (the Attorney- General) would appeal to any man who gave himself the trouble of thinking (a trouble which some that were loudest last night in the applause of his Hen. and Learned Friend were ahvays anxious Nevoid), whether such was or could be the fact ? Did Ministers raise the storm ? Were they the authors of the agitation? When did it commence? Last year? Certainly not. Was not t h e cry for Reform raised after the melancholy results of the American war ; and could it be pretentled even by those who had applauded. the speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend,' that Lord -ChithAtia in his demand for it was playing. into the hands of , - the Government 'of 'ISM'? -That illustrious Peer was thoroughly and painfully .con vinced o f t h e ev il consequences - of the influence of the other House of Parliam e nt among the Comm ons , a n d the same conviction had been - - the very foundation of the fame of his son. • His declared sentiments upon this subject had enabled him to step into power, supported by the confidence of the people, which confidence he after wards employed to destroy the influence which his Noble Father had denounced. The awful events of the French re volution had afterwards induced him to pause in his career, although, in the prophetic words of Mr. Fox, that event was in itself a proof of the necessity of the change he had pre vinusly contemplated. In 1793, the Noble Lord at the head ~f the Government bad brought fOrward the question, and had diaided with only about forty Members in his favour. Was the object then to keep Alinister s in th e i r p i ece ., or cou l d that h a v e b e en the purpose o f the same Noble Earl in I 1797? He only mentioned these facts to show that the important principle had lon g b een ac k nowledged, and I generally felt, as any man would willingly admit at a time . when his feelings were not excited, or his interests en. e„ geee l It could not be denied, that for many years a I trong case, not for inquiry, but for redress, had existed. The con option of the Ilotise of Commons was a matter of i meariety, and the people of England had taken it up, and called for a Reform in a voice as fur flour entreaty on the one hand as it was from' intimidation on the other. Any man who could view the subject calmly, with the temper and moderation that became so great a question, must feel at once that Ministers could have had no sordid or selfish object in bringing for Ward this Bill. They had acted from an honest conviction of necessity, because they saw that a remedy was waisted, and because the people claimed that a remedy should be applied. Surely it would not be denied, that Ministers were right in making their remedy efficient ; for unl. ss it were efficient, it could not be per. menent and final.—(Hear, bear.) • If what was considered by some a moderate or qualified Reform had been brought forward by them, the effect might be to silence the public voice for the year 1831, but another plan would be ne cessary in 1832, and so on from year to year, keeping the country in a feverish state of suspense and speculation—.a state of things of all things to be avoided..—(hear.) An attempt has been made to throw discredit on the Bill, by asserting that it was the result of comproMise; but bow was it possible to bring forward a great measure of the kind without its being necessary that individuals should make some sacrifices for the sake of unanimity ? Who bed a right, on a m otter of this sort,' to arrogate to him self the epithet of infallible ? It had been suggested on the other side, last nielat, he believed for the first time, that some degree of Reform was necessary. No hint of the kind had been given during the former debate of seven nights' duration ; but now, forsooth, the Bil! before the House was to be brought into disrepute by Honourable Members, who came forward with the statement that they too had their measures of Reform, though more moderate and more satisfactory, and by which the interests of the public would he duly guarded. If the Right Honoarable Baronet and his friends were, indeed, friendly to the principles of Reform, they would hardly refuse to give this Bill a fair and impartial consideration in the Com mittee. But when these Hon. M. tubers talked of moderate Reform, he (the Attorney General) wished to know what was me int by the words ? Did they mean that the nomina tion boroughs were only to be half disfranchised —that they should in future return sine Member instead of two? The non. Baronet, the Member for Londonderry, said that lie did not wish to preserve those boroughs, while the Noble Mem ber for Dewnshire, who professed himself a very stringent reformer, extremely de•irous of going a considerable length, hid asses ted that there was great peril in even commenc ing a chance. In spite of that peril, however, he thought that the danger of doing nothing ought not to fie neglected. It thus became a practical question of degree, and if so, why ought not the Bill upon the table to he allowed to go into the Committee, in order that the various views of enlightened men might be collected, and a measure con centrated from those views? His Hon. and Learned Friend had observed upon the curious coincidence that eixty. two boroughs were to be disfranchised, and the Mem bers of the House diminished to the extent of sixty-two Members; and he bed followed it up with the suggestion that Ministers meant, in the end, to give back sixty-two Members to the totally disfranchised boroughs. He (the Attorney-General) hoped that the character of those who introduced the Bill would be a security against any such suspicion—such trilling with an important question. Ii it were true, it could hardly be supposed that Ministers would forego the support they might obtain by the avowal of such an intention. Was such the moderate and seise, fitetory Reform projected by the opponents of this Bill ? In the course of his speech against this selfish Bill, his Hon. and Learned Ft iend had attacked various of its pro visions ; but surely neither lie nor any other Hon. Mem ber would deny that the diminution of the expense of elections, and the total prevention of bribery, were impor tant public benefits. The measure was a Lona fide attempt by shortening the duration of polls, and by abolishing out-voters, to accomplish their object. It was another great gain to get rid of the variety of rights of voting which put an end to protraction and litigation, and enabled individuals; to become candidates who would not otherwise have risked their expenses. (The Attorney_ General here went over other provisions of the Bill, in answer to what had been said by Sir E. B. Sugden, con tending that the exceptions taken were not well founded,) It had been asserted by his Hon. and Learned Friend, that the regulations for Members for the three Ridings of York shire were those of Cromwell. If so, he (the Attorney- General) contended that the plan was that of one of the most sensible men that ever lived—a great Reformer, and above all, a great Reformer of Chancery—the best Re Former of Chancery from that time to the present.— ;Hear, hear, and laughter.) This was only an attempt to create an unjust prejudice, but it was too late to frighten the country by calling names. If it were true that one Riding had a population of 700,000—more than the other two Ridings united—his answer to the objection was, that I Ministers did not pretend by tlis Bill to equalise counties. The difficulty of drawing an Act of Parliament to effect Reform of any kind, must he well known to his Hon. and Learned Friend, and could certainly not be denied by ano they Hon. and Learned Friend he saw opposite (Sir James Scarlett), who, although joined a year or two ago with the then Soliciter-General and the Secretary for the Horne Department for that purpose,; had produced a measure so defective, although passed into a law, that various others had subsequently been necessary to amend it. The objec tion urged to the powers given to the Privy Council was powerless, unless the House agreed ha the sort of imputa tion it implied. Unquestionanly those powers were large, but he would appeal to any man, whether a better method of meeting the existing evil could be devised? The prin ciple of so employing a Committee of individuals of the higest, rank and ci , aracter was not new, hut, after all, it might not be necessary. The King, by his undoubted prerogative, might cease to send writs to any place ; and what sort of vested right would then exist in such places as Old Sarum or Gatton ? What would it be worth in such a case, although the proprietor might have given 40,0001. for it ? The King might take away what he had granted.--(.No, no, hear, hear.)—He re peated that the King, of his prerogative, might take away from any place the right of sending Members to Parlia ment.—(No, no. )—lt might be said that the Act of Union with Scotland prevented it ; it settled the number of the House of Commons, but it did not . specify to what places the King's writs should be sent. He did not say the King could deprive Corporations of their charters, but he could deprive boroughs of their franchise.--(Hear, hear.)—The interposition of the Privy Council, therefore, was only a new check for the more secure accomplishment of what was fit and just to be done. His Hon. and Learned Friend no doubt a'so fancied that he had made a success ful hit'on the point of the rent of houses conferring the right to vote. Poor rates formed an uncertain criterion, but they might come in aid ; the hoped-for repeal of the Inhabited House Duty (with the rest of the Assessed Taxes) would deprive the proper officers of another means o f judging, but the production of a receipt of the pay ment of rent, where there was no reason to suspect collu sion between the landlord and tenant, would afford evi dence to establish or disprov e the right of voting. It ought to be reco leated also that that right would be set tled, not during the heat and animosity of a contested e l ec ti o n, but long before it occurred, and when there could be no ground for charging partiality. This proof of pay ment of rent before a man was entitled to vote, was what his Hon. and Learned Friend had called a boon to the landlord, and the observation bad been received with much approbation. Sometimes a little wit went a great way, and nowhere farther than when an auditory was pre-dis posed to be pleased. It was the same with argument ad dressed to those who were most willing to he convinced. The register in c ounties was to b e ma d e b y a barrister duly qu a lifi e d, an d he rtriceel to add, that none of the forty-shiliing freeholders would be disfranchised ; thus the lower orders would have a new motive, by pru dence and industry, to become owners of tree soil, and part of a numerous and most valuable constituency. To the freeholders, by the Bill, copy_ holders and leaseholders were in future to be added ; and here be could not but - recur to the frightful word revo lutionary," introduced by various Hon. Members into the discussion ; they denounced the measure as revolutionary and destructive 'of all the ancient establishments of the country. It was some .satisfaction to have obtained St legal definition of the meaning of the term "revolution ary," for an Hon. and Learned Member, after having in voked the shade of Blackstone to show what would re move the foundation, or at least the superstructure of the Constitution. concluded that that dreadful calamity would be produced by the admission of copyholdeas and lease holders to the right of voting. —(Hear, hear. )—This fact showed the value of some of the big words imported into this debate, which could frighten those only who were too prone to be alarmed. The fact was that in the reign of William 111., the word " Revolution" was used to signify a restoration of rights and liberties, and he (the Attorney- General) knew no reason why the same meaning should not be assigned to it in the reign of William IV. Crom well might be employed as a hughear, and Jacohinical and Revolutionary applied as nicknames to the present plan of Reform ; but the country would not he deceived by such artifices, and the time was gone by, when ignorance could lie imposed upon by the jargon of party. He apprehended that he had now gone through, and answered, most of the points urge d by his lion. and Learned Friend.—(A Mem ber across the table observed that the right Hon. Gentle. man bad said nothing of the Preston voters.)—lf Preston wer e especially injured by the measure, he should he very sorry for it, and he was ready to g:ve a full consideration to its peculiar claims, if any such could be advanced. The principle of the Bill was not disfranchisement..-e.(fiear, hear, re-echoed from the opposite benches.)—Tha prin. ciple of the Bill was not disfranchisement.—(Cheeri, and repeated cries of " No, no.") -e-Its object was m rain es much as possible all existing rights--(Cheers, and great confusion)—as much of them as was consistent with a real and , effectual Reform of tie representa tion of the people in this House.—(Much cheering.)__ He did not think that any plan could he proposed which would give the people a more real and effectual repree sestation than that which the Bill before the House would effect. If he might be allowed to refer to what had been said on a former night by a Noble Lord, who thought that a publication ought to be prosecuted, in which the Members olthat Rouse were spoken of with disrespect, he tisaught it his duty to say that he did not think the assertions com plained of to be false—(Hear, hear).--nor did he think, that if the libel were sent to a Jury, the defendant could be found gUilty.—(Hear, hear.)—At the same time, it was not to be supposed that be looked upon Honourable Members as hired lacqueys; but he thought that nothing could send Members to that House with greater credit than the system of representation contemplated by the Bill upon the table. For, when gentlemen were now sent there, they seemed to come with the conviction that it was a duty, from which they ought not to be inaueed to depart, to support the particular views of those who hail nominated them. But he believed, that if they would go into their chambers and dispassionately consider the effects of the Bill, they would come to the conclusion, that by no other mode could they enter that House more free than by that which the Bill proposed. Selfish and mercenary motives had been imputed to men of rank and distinction who supported the present measure. But he would ask, could his Hon. and Venerable Friend, the Member for Norfolk, who bad advocated the cause of Reform through good report, and through evil report ; could the Honour- Member for Northumberland, and the Hon. Member for Berkshire, who, through all scenes and changes had sup ported it, now be charged with want of sincerity for their adherence to the same principle ? But the Hon. Member for Corfe Castle hail asked, did the Lords Essex and Northum berland, and the other men of high rank and station who supported the long Parliament, know to what result their measures:would u!timate'y lead? If any argument could be drawn from that example, the Hon. Member for Corn wall might as well he compared to the artisans of the Long Parliament. He might be called the Essex or the Northumberland of the day. If the progress of Reform were to terminate in destruction, it was that Hon. Mein. her with whom it should begin ; for he, and the Hon. Member for Corfe Castle, both admitted that the waters must flow upon us, and the only question was, who should turn the key ? Yet he (ihe Attorney-General) would ask, was there any analogy between the present times and that period, when the usurpations of Charles the. First and, of his Star Chamber incurred the utmost hatred of the people.—(Hear, he heard gentlemen ask, was the present the time for Reform ? he must ask in return. when could there be a time more seasonable than this, when peace prevailed, when trade was flourishing—(Cheers) —when the currency was in a secure anal wholesome state, anal when everaehing was going on as it ought—(Cheering)—With an exception. (Cheers and laughter.) —Gentlemen might laugh if they pleased,--Lhe meant the base and demoralizing influence which was-exercised over the rep - resentaiives of the people. (Cheers.)—fetill, when the corruption and perjury of such places as East Retf ad and Grimsby, anal a hundred others were exposed before the Howe, gentlemen of drip moral and religious feeling came forward to object, and that too on mood principle, to all Reform.—(Cheers, and vehement cries of No, no, no.")—lf not, then, how happened it, that in a debate of seven nights they had not been able to find a Reform to which they would con sent? The opposition which they have presented to the measure before the House seemed to him a rejection of the principle. After seven days' debate, they had not offered any plan to be substituted for that in favour of which the public voice had been loudly and unequivocally raised. Indeed they called that measure a corporation robbery ; but the corporations themselveS came forward and laughter.)—lt was said t o b e lik e the quo warrant° eagerly, and begged that th ey m i g h t h e ro bb ed.—(Cheers case against the City of London ; but the Corporation of London came unhesitatingly to pray that their pri vileges might not be allowed to stand in the way of their country's good,—(Cheers had been said that the people had nut had opportunities of fairly expressing their sentiments; but he would say that there never had been a case in which the public voice had been more clearly raised. The people had declared themselves grateful for the measure. There had not been a single exception. The gentlemen opposite, who so often alluded to the measure, which had been carried, as they said, in opposition to the petitions of the people, did not seem to act consistently, when they now opposed a measure, in favour of which the people had poured innumerable petitions upon the table of the House. For his part, he would abstain from using any argument which could be called intimidation. As he would not allow such an influence to be exercised upon himself, he would not attempt to exert it over others. When it had been said that the op ponents of the Bill would not dare to face their consti tuents, it could never have been supposed to be intimated that they ran any risk of being pelted—(Hear, bear, and laughter)—but only that the course of Reform was making such way throughout the country, anti that amongst the most intelligent part of the people; and be woeid observe, that that part extended very far in the lowest class— (Hear, hear)—that the gentlemen who opposed the Bill could not expect afterwards the support of their consti tuents. He did not think that was intimidation, but a fair and rational statement of the case.—(Hear, hear.)— But if it were supposed that any half measure would allay the discontent whirls was growing up in all classes, and which, as the experience of all mankind teaches, must; if not allayed in time, lead to unhappy results, in his rem. science, he believed, that by removing the evils, which the present Bill proposed to remove, an I thereby adapting our institutions to the spirit of the times—he would not say perpetuity would be given to time Constitution, as that could hardly be hoped for in human institutions—but its greatest stability and permanence would be secured, in a better state of the representation, and with a purer mode of election.—(Cheers, and cries of question.) Sir J. SCARLETT said, that in the impatience which the House manifested, he would not at that late hour of the night protract their debere, but that he thought it his duty to express his sentiments upon a question of so gr eat importance. From the first time that lie had the honenr of a seat in that House, he thought Reform necessary, and he still held that opinion. But although he was desirous to make such alterations as would give the people an ade quate representation—(Hear, hear.)—he was not bound to support that measure, which went beyond anything that could be consented to by those who desired to pre serve our institutions. He had wished that the question should have been debated free from personal or party feel ings, and he had heard with regret so mach of bath ma nifested during the d e b a t e . —(C r i es o f "Oh, o h, oh !" anal order, order.) F o r hiS p ar t h e h a d no thi n g to gain and nothing to save by the rejection of the Bill.—(Hear.) It would neither give him a seat nor preserve it for limn. —( Hear, hear.) But he thought that if the House, as heretofore constituted, had done so much good, and still proved itself capable of so much good, it would not be debt to part with it for an experiment. The measure before the House was not an amendment, but a recon struction—(Cheers)—and that on principles unknown to the Constitution. He had no doubt that the Ministers who brought forward that measure, were of opinion that this re-construceion of the House was safe for the Consti tution, and for the preservation of property. He would illow them to think so, but he would claim ;cave to ex sufficient excuse f or hi s no t go i n g the same length with ex ercise his own jed gmes t, an d he thought his doubts a them, They assert that the question really at issue was, whether the House would consent to Reform deny kind, oi not. He did not think t h at R e f orm was the principle of th e Bill. If it were so, a Bill m i g ht as we ll be proposed to r e d uce the number of that House one-half, or to give to all it. Members seats in the House of Lords ; and that all who, opPOsed such 4, Bill were against all Reform. For'the principle of the Bill he would refer to its details.—(Heir. ) —At that period of the debate he would only occupy the House by the bare statement of his opinions, without going into any lengthened arguments up them. Hon. Gen tlemen seemed to assert that the peopl e had a constitu tional right to that specific Reform, which, although still a theoretical repreSentatien, they considered effectual. But he would ask them in what part of the Constitution, in what law or usage, was that right established ? The re presentation of the people in Parliament was founded upon three thine,s—upon usages, upon Acts of _Parliament, and upon Charters granted by the King. Bet the Bill was founded upon none of them. The authors of that Bill had referred to no usages, and had been governed by no existing law in framing its provisions.—( Hear, hear.) His Friend, with thst perspicuity which marked every thing which fell from him in that House, had quoted the statute of Edward the Third, in which the ParbaMent was stated to be composed of the Barons and Commonalty of the realm. But the word 'Commonalty was not used there in the sense in which his Friend bad interpreted it. I n the Oxford provision (as his F . 'riernl would find), the tw e l ve Representati ves o f th e Commona* were appointed by the King, and were, in fact, themselves Barons.—(Clear.)-_. Yet they constituted what his Friend referred to as the Commonalty.—(Cheers.)—Those persons were to meet three times, to treat with the King's Council on behallof all the Commonalty of England , and the King having "Worn to observe the articles of that celebrated provision, .having repeatedly violated his oath, again and again obtained abiolution.—(Llughter.)—All theories for reforming the House of Commons, not founded upon the history of Par liament, ought to he looked upon with contempt. In any chanera; of the Constitution, the House should he guided only by expediency and experience. Upon what gicund of ex pediency was it that the present Bill cut off sixty Mem bers fiom that branch of representation in which alone cemmercial interests could find their way into the amuse. (Cheers.) The three great sources from which that House was formed were the commercial, the mantificturing, and the moneyed interest. No doubt the represeutatioa of the land was a matter of great importance, but it was alreedy fully represented in the House - of Peers. The change which took place in that House from the discovery of America, could not have escaped the attention of any Hon. Member who took the trouble to refer to our history with any view of estimating time value of the proposed me isure of ReforM. From that time the House of Commons as sumed an importance unknown to former times; hence he was justified in affirming Rest commerce, manufactures, and the accumulation of capital, were the great sources of the greatness and freedom of this country. Were they then prepared to cut off sixty-two Members from that in terest, and impart to the landed interest a preponderance unjust and inexpedient —a preponderance clearly forming an addition to the power already enjoyed by that interest in the House of Lords. The Bill added fifty-five to the county Members. It went to take away sixty Members from the general representation of the Commons of Eng land, and gave fifty-five to the agricultural representation. Instead of ninety-two county representatives, there were to be one hundred and forty-seven, and sixty-two were to he taken away from the other interests of the community —again, he would repeat, that that gave a great and un due preponderance to the landed interest. It had been the practice of all Governments to make large professions about public credit, hut lie must he allowed to say that never did any Bill come under his consideration more calculated to injure public credit. Assuming that the Bill was sound in theory, he doubted whether in its practical operations it could be made to realise the expectations of its framers. He was not, from all this, to be considered as one of the undistinguishing opposers of the mea sure; on the contrary, there were tome parts of it which had his full approbation. He was enabled to give his unqua lified support and approbation to that part of the Bill which would give representatives to the large twns. On that subject he had before expressed a decided opinion, and that opinion remained unchanged. In the earlier period of our history it was the practice of the Crown to confer the elective franchise upon all places sufficiently populous, wealthy, or intelligent to entitle it to such a privilege and advantage; and were it not for the jealausy to which the untons with Scotland and Ireland gave rise respecting the increase of English Members, the Crown would probably have long since conferred upon the great towns in this country- that right of election which it was the object of the present Bill to confer. It was admitted by the framers of the Bill that the Crown did pessess the power to do all that was needful in such a case; then why the present Bill? Ti:ere even was a time when tnany places eonsi deed the right of representation a burden, and when they prayed to be relieved from it ; and no doubt the places which were then deprived of it by the power of the Crown may have the privilege restored to them by the same au thority. He should then proceed to consider more in de tail the provisions of the Bid. It provided that where the electors in a borough did not exceed 300—that is, 300 101. householders, the Privy Council should hove the right of determining, from which portion of the adjoining districts additional electors should be taken. In the whole history of legislation had there ever been such a pi inciple of legislation adopted? Was the House so reduced as that it must have recourse to the Privy Council to provide for its regulation, and to determine who the constituents were to be who were to send representatives into that House? theThived, the Hou ssteatet.f Commons oan t n o c; the pres e nt m e a sure a i : sa i t t mo d Whatever was he er mights n ra p i not s ly ibemert his i e eo c l jg:eafctite;eot those n o c s w ho denied that the Legislature had the power and the right to determine the question es they might see expedient ; but in determining what was expedient, their first duty was oi have regard to what was just. Let the House only look at the Bill ;it went to disfranchise sixty boroughs, and it proceeded in this upon no system or principle—if there were any of the principles in the measure by which our former Legis lation had been distinguished. lie maintained that it it hid been governed by arty such principles, it would rather hive added to the constituency of the country rather than have diminished it. The only principle upon which it seemed to proceed was one perfectly appl cable to existing places. It went upon the principle of population, and took the census of 1821 ; but why that census.? It took as a rule, a population of 2,000 for one Member, and 4,000 for two. If apl ice in the year 1821 had but 1,600 persons within its boundaries, it was to have no Member, though its population from that time to this might have been increased fir b yond 2,000. If ale.), another place had a population in 1821 of 1,010, it was , to return two M. tubers, though it might within the period he referrt dto have been greatly diminished. So far, then from there being any rule or principle in the course the Bill adopted, it was perfectly capricious. It had been said that the public demanded Reform : he would reply, that the present measure could never satisfy the public—it was altogether anotnahmus—it could suit no theory—it could accommodate itself to no practice, at least to none that was known to the Constitution. He knew it would suit no theory, and lie knew that its practice would lie felt as a grievance, and inconveniently known to all parties as a source of discontent ; it would prove an endless source of complaint and discontent, destroying as it did the fran chises in some places, and annihilating . others. The - old system might not be without its faults, but the new was essentially had,—and whatever defects might attach to the more ancient system, they were, at !east, accustomed to it, After observing upon the tendency to revolution, which at all times prevailed in this country, the publicity of debates of that House, and the influence of i p „ye r : i nn l o e 1 ; 1 a n dtl,e matterw i th ( tf Cons t itutio n he i. public opinion consequent thereon, he proceeded e umponobtsehrevepritnhcaitpleaCn(ra:tmantioopns,wifeorrernietmsl of mien'the Bil l , u Hou se o f framers imagined, but proceed to deal with hereditary aw tollvarenPrd.n Government et could o h u o ll l ai e j. pounds,aonfd of the his op i nion, the House of Commons had never end would never support any Ministry, framr any considerable length of time. unless confidence was reposed in it by the people.— (Cries of " Question.") 11, however, the Bill could have those ohjectiodable portions of it remote d to which he had already alluded, he should be too happy to give it his vote. But as the meesure now stood, not only were the repre sentatives to be new, but the Constitution also. Ile woule confess that these things filled hint with alarm ; fur he could not help fearing, that if this Bill once pasaed, it would be the means of destroying the house of *Commons and the Constitution-S-4 Constitution which, if it had nothing else to reeommend it, hail at least b, en the means of protectin g property an d lib erty to a d egree which had never be en k nown under any other Government. In this country alone could the meanest roan rise to the honour of a seat in that House—in this country alone could he aspire to all the honours of the State. He thought that these advantages were so important and so exclusively our own, that he should be sorry tosee them running any risk, more especially on account of a measure which, instead of amending, would he the means of reconstructing and en tirely remodelling the Constitution. On thsse grounds, he w:is slurry to say, that he was not able to give his sup port to the Bill. The cries, on the Hon. and Learned Gentleman re suming his seat, for " 17 eluestion.!" " Order !" " Divide ! ' and " Adjourn !" were so loud and reprated, that it was some time before • Sir THOMAS ACLAND mile" obtain a bearing. The Hon. Baronet said, that Le would not have preferred hie rm quest to the Hemet) be.allowed to .oblainthem for a : f ew minutes,-if 'he had not attempted to obtain a hearing at a much earli er p er i o d o f t h e evening. He was o f' op i n i on, that he was call e d upon b y hi s sense o f d uty to expl min his the subject, a remarkablebeftre he featurewent to of the th is vote.debate, irn thatthe fifer.esiti feelings place, on it svgs no Refor ho m one ad; but those H on . Gentl ventured to say that hemene was absolutelyed avthat -rse they were rea d y f or some R.eform, though not for this Reform, did not appear to hi m to have cons id ered, that by this admi:sion they were opening the door an itich or two, and that by so doing they were in fact throwina it mmp on to the whale cpmestion—(He hear)—which had fir nearly fifty years, been knocking at the door in v sin. Now that it gas thus generally admitted tl at the sabject•must, in one abaime or another, be entertained, it appeared to him to be trifling —to be almost nonomnse—to t ilk of considering it in insignificant details. The fact was, that they must make up their mind to some general measure, or none at all—(Cheers)—if the question of the second reading was Reform or not Reform ; for how mold any one suppose, in plain and formal terms, that the second reading of the Bill was to be met by the mere vaette antici pation of a non-existent phantasy--(Cbei cc.) He trusted that the. Hon. Member for Cornwall would. excuse the ex pression ; and if such a proposition should ever tie proposed, it semuld only be supported by those who were in earnest diame trically averse to the measure. To go into. the Committee therefore, with such intentions as those, wind he. mere, trtAing with the public and the question, because. though the supporters might call themselves reformers, yet tl ey scented prepared to go only to so very sli .•lit an extent that they could not be surprised if no one felt inclined to put any trust in then.—(Cheers.) He would not trouble the House with any expression of the .feelings which he had formerly entertained, or the sense which ono , in mde him feel that it was necessary to remedy thy eltfects wile"' pre vailed in the representation—defects which placed power in the hands of every enemy, and inflieted wounds on every friend. lie would only sty on this point. that he never hid bad a more painful task imposed on him than when he had endeavoured to find out what was the real course of his duty on a question, of which he was saying but little when lie called it by far time most important in decision and effect which could ever be presented to the Legislature of a civilised country.—(Hear.) He could assure the Ministry that it had been his most anxious wish to give the most unqualified support to their mea -1 sore ; but, at the same time, he was bound to state, that thouzh he saw much to approve in the Bill, and though he felt - particularly pleased with the moderation and sineu !or honesty which was apparent in some portion of it, still, after every effort that he bad been able to make to bring his mind to go along with this measure, he could not help coining to. the conclusion that it went too far._. (Cheers.) The provisions of the Bill, in his judgment, were carried too far ; sod at the same time they proceeded with too rapid a pace. .He was not unwilling to consent to a urge disfranchisement, or to adopt what was pro posed in the Bill with some abatement, which, in his opinion, would nut militate to the disadvantage of the measure ; but at the same time lie was not willing to con sent to the total disfranchisement of the boroughs as pro. posed --(Hear, hear.)—With respect to Scotland, he thought that the Government did right to propose that the representation should be thrown open, and it was like wise, in his opinion, advisable that the large towns of the county should be represented. But, though lie had then objections to portions of the Bill, he felt that it was in dispensibly necessary on his part to vote for the second reading of the Bill—(Loud cheering)—as he believed that ample opportunity would be found, when the Bill Was in Committee, to introduce such troolificznions as might be rripOsite. The cries for adjournment and division were loudly re newed on the Hon. Baronet resuming his seat. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, diet although the hour was so advanced, lie had to solicit the patience of the House for a short time, while he fxantined some of the points that bad been touched upon, and alluded to a por tion of those arguments which had been use , ' in the coureo of the debate. A great many of them, however, in the observations which had fallen from his Hon. and Learned Friend (the Attorney. General) in the course of his ego. quent speech, were so satisfactory in reply, that it would no: be necessary for him to repeat them. In time first plane he begged to rematk, that he iou:t differ from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Attimissey- General of the late Administration) its thinking that he could with propriety, as a Reformer, vote for the second meoling of the Bill._(Cheers.)-31r. Burke had spolon of persons who had much retrospective patriotism; but when it was a question of the present day, their i atriotism was alw,ys wanting. Now, he would not say that the Hon. and Learn ed Gentleman's patriotism was retrospective, for it seethed to be rather of a prospective nature. As long as Reform dwelt only in generalities — as long as he had only to speak h t , o e a t r b i R. H , House and his n 7; constituents G o ? n n i t t s4 n e a ne hraad said lo t itre and that was favourable to it; but now that. there was a practi cal measure, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had Made - use of a set of arguments, which, in his (Lord Jot:n Rus sell's) opinion, did not go in favour of a more moderate Reform, but militated against any Reform whoever.— (Cheers.) On a previous night, the Hon. and Learned Member for Weymouth (Sir E. B. Sugden) had stated that he had perused the Bill, and that he was not able to understand many of the provisions of it : but even if this was the case, at all events it was clearer and plainer than the imaginary resolutions which the Hon. Member for Cornwall was to propose, and which were to go, no one knew how far—and to be a sort of satisfaction to, no on knew whom, unless it was those who were pre Fared o vote against Reform, and yet wanted to persuade them selves that they were not altogether opposed to the mea sure. An Hon. Member had endeavoured to show, that in early times the commonalty of Etmgland was another rome for the Barons of Eegland ; but he (Lord J Rus moll) was not able to find anything that show e d that that House was not strictly the Commons of the country ; and this bad been distinctly admitted at the t;nie or the revo lution.- Another fact which went to ahew the Mille thing was, that at one 'blind the Lerd Warden of the Cinque Ports had assumed the right of notnit.atiog the Meador!) for those parts ; in cons, quenee of which a resolution was come to, declaring that such nomination was to ntrary to law, and to be declared void ; and it would appear mat the present condition of time electors had arisen from the intrigues that were going on from the time of George the First to that of Gm orge the Thild, by which it was tound that these burghs could he made a vain ode prommeety. When the present Ministry had undertaken the task of firming the provisions of this measure, the question that they had asked themselves was, .‘ Was it fit that there should be direct nomination for Members of that House, and a sale of sea t s i n i t ?" This was the question wi icy he would also beg to propose to those who now opposed the measure.—(Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Member for Corn wall thought that this nomination, and this s-tle of seat., were fit and p ro p er , t h en surely he (Lord John Russ,-11)could not h e wrong in thinking t h at the Itetorm the Hon. Menshr would propose would not be a final Ri form:— (Coeers.) He was not one of those who would not deny advant.ges mieht arise from persons being able to ob. rain seats in that 11111,1s.ti by the payment of a sum of mo ney —the most illustrious instance of which was, perhaps, that of 11Ir, Ricardo—who, by the paytth nt of 1,0001. or 1,20 W. a S ear in the shape of in crest, had been en tided y ls to display, through tho medium o f t h e H ouse, his great if madethey in did the not s-c o r ; ak first tthe Session aini •ni , 1 , ue system now,vo - f abilities and tale n t s . It ut the effect of continuing this ste Ll i li t sa l a k a , ld that be a Reformed Parliament.—( Hear, hear. This, if the dis franchisement of these boroughs was not`permitted, would be the inevitable consequence. Thi s di s f raochissment, however, had been talked of as a hardship to the electors. Hut it AVZS no hardship to 'them, for it was not one that they valued or cared to exercise; and the only rtal ques tion was, whether the proprietors of these boroughs should be allowed to exercise that privilege. It bad been asked .why the Ministry had chosen to fit the line where they did ; and why a borough with 1,900 inhabitants had not as good a right to be represented as one with 2.000 inha bitants. But it was evident that the same argument might have been used,ovbenever the time might Mavis been. fix e d ; and yet it w as equa ll y ev i de n t that the Ihme most have been fixed .somewhere—(Hear, heer)—and he Ital }retard no reason given, why any other line would have been prefe. rable. But the Hon. laud` Learned Gentleman Imad argued , that if this measure was carried, the fair representati o n of commerce would be lost. He must, however, confe.a„ that he could not eee how this was to hap pen . - ; nor why men of commerce should be enabled to enter the House without any further trouble than the payment of a emus of money. It hod also b een said, that one of the consequent:lN of Reform would be, that the national credit would he d 0... strayed. But it had been well observed in reply, th,o, t h e destruction of the national credit would not only ruin nien of large property, hot those of small- Pt"Permy also ; and as the very principle of this Bill was to give the elective franchise to men of small property, he expected that the n aural consequence would be, that they would any return representatives who wer e prepared to maintain theineitmla hi% o f t h e funds, Another ohjecrion that had been iaken : to the measure was, the injustice of adm pting the census .. of 1821, for the purpose of determinin g the populatimo. of the boroughs of England ; but ir was evident that if they had attempted to take a census now, for the purpose of settling whi c h were to b e diarranchi,d, and whist, no t , it would have g iv en r i se to eve ry spe c i es of fraud and t-