The Sun. — London, England, 1834-03-04 00:00:00

POLICE INTELLIGENCE. HATTON GARDEN. Mr. Laing, the magi..trate, summoned several cabdrivers before Mr. ROGERS. Joseph Smith, the driver of the cab 1,612, was the first case called on. Mr. Laing stated that on Tuesday night last, as he was pass ng Temple-bar coachstand, the de fendant called out to other coachmen, "There goes the rogue, Laing," and he was immediately beset by the ruffians, whose behaviour was abo minable. He called a policeman, who, by his di rections, took the number of the defendant's cab. Pol•ce constable 84 F gave similar evidence. Mr ROGERS—You are fined .51., and if you do not pay it you will be impri..oned two months in the House of Correction. The driver of the cab 962 was summoned for a similar offence. Mr. Laing expressed a wish that the defendant should be only ordered to pay the costs. Mr. ROGERS having consented, Mr. Laing, addrescng the defendant, said—For the information of your brethren I will tell you ti at if I am again insulted I will have every one on the stand taken into custody. A fellow named Howell was also charged. Mr. Laing said that the defendant was one of the worst of the gang ; but he did not appear to have thf care of a cabriolet. He was drunk, and acted as waterman to the stand. The defendant was then ordered to pay 405., in default of payment of which he was committed to prison for one month. THAMES POLICE. OUTRAGE By THE COALWHIPPERS —Yesterday T. PI Carthy, J. Roche, and C. Hoyley, three athletic Irishmen, coal-whippers, were charged with being concerned in the assault on the young water man t,amed Munns, who was attacked by four men, at an early hour on Saturday morning, at New Crane-stairs plying-place, and after being trio!,t dreadfully kicked and beaten by the ruffians, was robbed of his money and left for dead. Mr. Evans, the surveyor of Thames-police, saw young Munns in the hospital on Sunday afternoon, who said that a man who lived in Cinnamon-street, and had a daughter known by the cognomen of " Peg the blunderer," was one of the assailants, and that after striking him he held him while the others kicked him. Hayley's daughter corresponded with that description. Munn's father said that his son had informed him that Cornelius Hayley was the first man who knocked him down. The prisoners, who loudly disclaimed all partici pation in the outrage, were remanded. DEPTFORD PETTY SESSIONS. THE MURDER OF MR. RICHARDSON. The whole of Su'tday Deptford was in a state of commotion in consequence of two men and their wives having been lodged iththe station-house on suspicion of their being concerned in the barbarous murder of the unfortunate Mr. Richardson, of Bletchingly. A constable of Deptford, named Brown, re ceived information that two men, well known about Deptford as the collectors of rags, bones, glass bottles, &c., and very queer characters, had borrowed a cart of a person at Deptford on Wednesday morning last to go to Epsom, and that they had not returned the cart. An inquiry was immediately made, and the men's wives were applied to, and they also ad mitted that their husbands had not returned to their homes. Brown immediately proceeded in quest of the men, and traced them to Croydon, where he ascertained they had gone, and took them in their beds and brought them to Deptford on Sunday. Yesterday morning the two men and their wives were brought before Mr. Gordon and a full bench of magistrates, at a Petty Sessions, held at the Swan Inn, at Deptford. It appeared that the male prisoners were seen in the vicinity of New Cross, on Thursday morning, first at day-break by Thomas Hill, a locksman on the Croydon canal, of whom they requested a light for their pipe!, and in about an hour afterwards by Burgess, an active constable at New Cross, and so suspicious was their appearance at the time that he would have taken them into custody, but he had not heard of the murder. The men answered in every point to the description given in the hand bells, and the supposition was that they had crossed the country through Ewell and Cheam to Croydon, and then come down the canal, on the banks of which they had slept. After a long consultation the prisoners were re manded. WRECK IN THE RIVER.—On Friday evening a large sloop drifted off the Fresh Wharf, and was carried by the tide, which was flowing very fast, to the centre arch of London bridge. She was brought up all standing by the masts, which struck against the bridge, and were carried away. At the same time a sailing barge, with full canvass, laden with four hundred quarters of malt, for Barclay and Co., the eminent brewers, came athwart the bows of the sloop. The barge, from the concussion, immediately went down, and the sloop soon after became a wreck. The loss of the barge's cargo alone will amount to upwards of one thousand pounds. IRISH PORTRAITS.—The numerous delinea tions of -personal character which occur in Sir Jonah Barrington's work on the Irish Union, now attracting so much attention, are illustrated by engraved portraits of almost all the individuals distinguished in the affairs of Ireland during the last forty years. Among these portraits, which are remarkable for their fidelity and spirit, are the Duke of Leinster, Mar quis Cornwallis, Earls of Clare, Charlemont, Ross, Granard, and Moira ; Lords Castlereagh, Kitwarden, Hutchinson, De Blaquiere, and Edward Fitzgerald ; the Bishops of Waterford and Down ; the Right Hon. Henry Grattan, Mr. Secretary Cook, Dr. Patrick Duigenan, Major General Matthew, Colonel Vereker, Sir John M'Cartney, and Messrs. Flood, John Philpot Curran, Plunkett, Hussey Burgh, Francis Hardy, Gold, Egan, Richard Dawson, Charles Kendal Bush, Arthur O'Connor, Robert Emmet, James Napper Tandy, &c. Owen and Jane Cunningham, mother and son, from the neighbourhood of Athlone, are committed to Roscommon gaol, for the murder of James Moran, whom they killed with a reaping-hook and wooden beetle, for the paltry eonsi , eration of 21d., a debt be owed them ! Waterford Chronicle. TONNAGE SHIPPING.—A bill has been introduced to regulate the admeasurement of the tonnage and merchant shipping of the United Kingdom. The second is the principal clause ; it is as follows:—" The tonnage of every ship or vessel required by law to be re gistered shall, previous to her being registered, be mea sured and ascertained while her hold is clear, and accord ing to the following rule; that is to say, divide the length of the upper deck between the afterpart of the stem and the forepart of the stern post into six equal parts. Depths the foremost, the middle, and the aftermost of those points of division, measure in feet and in decimal parts of a foot the depths from the under side of the upper deck to the ceiling at the limber strake. In the case of a break in the upper deck, the depths are to be measured from a line stretched in a continuation of the deck. Breadths : divide each of these three depths into five equal parts, and ►neasure the inside breadths at the following points— videlicet, at one-fifth and four-fifths from the upper deck, of the foremost and eftermost depths; and at two fifths and four-fifths from the upper deck, of the mid ship depth. Length : at half the midship depth measure the length of the vessel from the afterpatt of the stem to the forepart of the sternpoat ; then to twice the mid ship depth add the foremost and the aftermost depths for the sum of the depths ; add together the upper and lower breadths at the foremost division, three times the upper breadth, and the lower breadth at the midship division, and the upper and twice the lower breadth at the after division for the sum of the breadths ; then multiply the sum of the depths by the sum of the breadths, and this product by the length, and divide the final product by 3 500, which will give the nnmber of tons for register. If the vessel have a poop or half-deck, or a break in the upper deck, measure the inside mean length, t readth , and height of such part thereof as may he included within the bulkhead : tnultiply these three measurements together, and dividing the product by 92.4, the quotient will be the number of tons to be added to the result as above found. In order to ascertain the tonnage of open vessels, the depths are to be measured from the upper edge thy unit; ANN. IMPERIAL PA\R lAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, 211Incli 3. The house met at five o'clock. Lord KENYON pre.ented a petition from a parish in Staffordshire for the protection of the church. The noble lord also gave notice, in the absence of a noble lord who usually sat to his left hand (Lord Wynford, we believe), of hi. intention to introduce a bill in the course of the pre sent session for the better observance of the Sabbath. Lord DACRE presented a petition from Sbepton lett and other parishes, in support of the church establish ment. The noble lord also presented a petition from St. Leonard's, Shoreditch, f'..r the repeal of the house duty. The Earl ~f MANSFIELD presented a petition from Kirkcudbright, praying for an alteration in church patronage. Lord POLTIMORE presented a petition from the dissenters of Barnstaple and Honiton, for the removal of the disabilities under which they laboured. Lord LlT'f LETON presented a similar petition from the Prote.tant Dissenters of Evesham, in the county of Worcester. Earl GREY presented similar petitions from the Pro testant Dissenters of Wellington, and six parishes in the county of Salop. The Marquis of WESTMINSTER, in presenting a petition from a person, named William Griggs, of the Edgware-road, praying their lordships to emancipate the Jews, would take that opportunity of reminding their Lordships that during the last session be had stated his inten tion to bring the subject of voting by proxy before their lord ships during the present session. The question had been much agita.ed, but had never been brought seriously be fore their lordships since the year 1816. Such being the case, it was his intention on Thursday next to bring the subject before the house. With reference to the sub ject of the petition, it would be recollected that during last session he had stated his intention, unless some other noble lord brought forward the subject to introduce the question relative to the disabiliti, s of the Jews. He trusted that his noble friend, who had taken so great an interest in the question, would bring the matter forward, but unless he did so, he should consider it his duty to adopt that course. Lord ELLENBOROUGH considered, with reference to the first subject to which the noble lord had adverted, that Thursday was much too early a day to bring forward so important a subject. That notice affected the privileges of all the members of that house, and he trusted, therefore, that the noble Marquis would give at least two or three weeks' notic- before he brought the subj-ct forward. Lord BEXLEY observed that whenever the noble mar quis brought forward the question relative to the Jews he should give it his most cordial support. The Marquis of WESTMINSTER, although he felt himself pledged to bring forward the question relative to the votes of their lordships' house, had no objection to put it off a week or two if it was considered necessary. The LORD CHANCELLOR, in reference to the sub ject of the emancipation of the Jews, begged to observe that no person felt more decidedly thin he did on th• subject. At the same time he begged to throw out for the consideration of the noble marquis, whether the bringing of the subject forward annually was not calculated to do it more injury than good. As an evidence of this he would only state the feelings that bad been excited by the adoption of such a course on the subject of parliamentary reform and the Ca tholic question, and be would very respectfully submit to him whether the course he was adopting was not calculated to lessen the chances of success. The Marquis of WESTMINSTER said, that after the observations of the noble lord on the woolsack be would not press the question further. Lord MELBOURNE laid upon the table the report o! ;he commissioners relative to Irish education. Lord DURHAM presented several petitions from the dis senters of North,impton, Stamford, and several other places, complaining of the grievances under which they ldb.ured, and praying for redress. The noble lord observed that two of these petitions prayed for a separation of the Church from the State. In that prayer he begged leave to stare he could not concur. All the other objects of the petitioners had his most cordial assent. They asked for nothing which, in his opinion, ought not to he granted to them. He could not help expressing his regret that the bill which had been brought into the other House for the relief of the Dissenters had not gone farther. All their requests, with the exception of the separation between church and state, ought to be complied with by the legis lature; and he sincerely bcped the time would shortly come when the whole of their just and reasonable demands would be conceded. The noble earl also presented a pe'ition from Kingston-upon-Hull, signed by upwards of 5,100 persons against the impressment system. The petitioners prayed that a plan of manning the English navy might be devised less revolting to good feeling, and better calculated to obtain good naval servants to the crown. It was some gratification to him that some cf the great officers of the navy, among whom was Sir E. Codringtcn, had expressed their clear opinion that naval servants of the crown might be obtain-d by much less objectionable means. Earl GREY, on the part of his Majesty's Government, begged to express his strongest wish to adopt any measure that would render impressment unnecessary; but at the same time he must beg to observe that during the war he did not see how it was to be avoided. With respect to the other pint to which the noble earl bad adverted, namely, the grievances under which the dissenters laboured, he begged it to be understood that because only one bill bad been introduced upon the subject, it was not, on that account, to be considered by the house that the other points were not under the consideration of his Majesty's government. No man felt more anxious than he did to afford relief to the dissenters, provided that relief was consistent with the interest of the established church. The Earl of DURHAM observed that the declaration of the noble earl, that the attention of his Majesty's govern ment had been directed to the other grievances of which the Dissenters complained would be received by them with the deepest satisfaction, as it was supposed that the bill introduced by the noble lord, the Master of the Forces, was all that was intended to be done by his Majesty's government upon the subject at present. Lord ROSEBERRY presented a petition from Stirling against any alteration in the church patronage in Scot land. The noble lord also presented a petition from the medical practitioners of Manchester, praying that the law effecting them, particularly the act called the Apothe caries Act, might be altered and amended. The noble lord also pre s ented petitions from Gloucester and Car narvun, for the better ob s ervance of the Sabbath. The Duke of RICHMOND presented petitions from Cavanish, and other parishes iu the county of Surrey, in favour of the Labour Rate Bill. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the Exchequer Bills Bill and the Extent in Aids Bill went through committee, and were ordered to be repotted to morrow. The house then adjourned. HO USE OF COMMONS', MARCH 3. The SPEAKER took the chair at a quarter past five. The Metropolitan Police accounts were brought up and laid on the table. _ The return of the quantity of shipping which had en tered the port of London during the pest year was brought up and laid on the table. Sir J. WROTTESLEY brought up the report of the committee on the standing orders, which was laid on the table. _ _ A bill for the better paving and lighting of the parish of St. James, Wtstminater, was brought in and read a first time. COUNTY RATES—CHURCH RATES. Lord ALTHORP gave two notices. The first, that on Friday next he would move fur a select committee to in quire into county rates; the second, that on Thursday the 17th of April he would submit a motion to the house on the subject of church rates in England and Wales. Mr. GOULBURN moved for a return of two papers, to which the noble lord opposite had no objection, hut which were important, as the period was approaching when the house would have before it a return of the increase and diminution of salaries. He wished also that they should have a list of the offices which had been created under the act of last session. He would confine his return to the offices so created, a considerable number, indeed, with salaries varying from 10,0001. a year to the lowest possible sum. His motion was rather long, as it corn prehended a great number of offices. The hen. member then moved for a return of the commissioners of the national debt, with their salaries, &c., the visitera of luna tics, the ecclesiastical commissioners, the attendance upon the privy council, the commissioners of lunatics, to whom the Lord Ch }ncellor had appointed their salaries, the officers appointed to assist the East India Company to wind up their affairs—(Hear, hear)—the India law commis sioners, the superintendents of the trade of China, and the several other officers appointed during last session. Lord ALTHORP assented to the granting cf the returns. Mr. LITTLETON brought up the First Report of the Commissioners of Education in Leland. Mr. GOULBURN moved for a repot t of the returns of the Municipal Commissioners in Ireland. Mr. LITTLETON said that the report would be laid on the table of that house. . Ur. YI, HUGHES gave notice that ou the stll 91 April he would move that after the repeal of the house duty, all persons might be allowed to open as many ad ditional windows in their residences as they pleased. Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that on the 27th of May be should move for the total extinction of tithes ; and on subsequent days that no one should be entitled to vote for municipal officers, unless as they voted for representatives in Parliament, for the vote by ballot, and for the application of that mode of election to the borough of Warwick. Mr. LYNCH gave notice that on the 12th of March he should move for leave to bring in a bill relative to fines and recoveries in Irel Ind. Mr. STANLEY moved for copies of the correspondence of the Secretary of State for the Colonial Department rela- tive to Australia. An HON. MEMBER begged to agk the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the intention of his Majesty's government, relative to the Poor Law Commission. We understood the Noble Lord in reply to state that no steps would be taken until the report was upon the table of the house. Mr. HODGES said he had to complain of a gross breach of privilege which had been committed by the forging of the signatures of certain inhabitants of Leamington, praying that the franchise of the borough of Warw►ck should be transferred to Leamington. After a great deal of personal examination, he would satisfactorily prove to that house that 281 of the signatures attached to that petition were not genuine. He begged to move that a select committee be named to inquire into this gross breach of privilege. The SPEAKER said that this was an oni.er night, and he did not know how his motion could come on before the orders of the day. If the house (should appoint a select committee to inquire into the matter, bow could the hon. member tell that it would turn out to be a breach of privilege ? Mr. HODGES said, that after the orders of the day were disposed of, he would move for the appointment of this committee. Mr. C. FERGUSSON gave notice of his intention to move that an humble address be presented to hi s Majesty with respect to a grant to be made to Capt. Ross. Mr. O'CONNELL had to bring forward a subject to the notice of the house, which he bad mentioned on Friday night He would state the grounds shortly on which he considered there ought to be an inquiry di rected into the matter. He bad stated that a person of the name of Dundas in the police force in Ireland had been appointed to the office of stipen diary magistrate to the colonies. Dundas had been guilty, in the office he held in the police establishment, of peculation to a very peat extent. When the offence was discovered, an inquiry was instituted. The vouchers which he produced to support his accounts turned out to have been all forgeries, notwithstanding that be had sworn to the truth of them, under an act of parliament that re quired him so to do; so that, besides forgery, he had been guilty of perjury. The Irish government directed a magistrate of the county of Wexford to take depositions against Dundee, which as soon as he beard of he ab sconded, and had not from that time been heard of in Ireland, until the report reached Ireland that he had been appointed to a stipendiary magistracy of the colonies. It was due to the right hon. gent'etnan opposite to state that be had conducted himself in the most satisfactory manner. On Friday evening he stated that be bad never heard that any charge had been made against Dundas. On Saturday morning he instituted an inquiry ; he found that the charges had bred made, and he immediately cancelled the appointment,which he, without delay, communicated to him (Mr. O'C.) No doubt some gross fraud had been practiced by some one in procuring the appointment for Dundas, and for which be was liable to be punished. Before, therefore, proceeding to his motion, he begged to ask the right honourable the S , cretary for the Colonies whether be felt himself at liberty to mention when the ap pointment took place, through whom it was made, if it was through a recommendation from Ireland, whether it was intended to indict the individual who procured the ap pointment, and whether it was intended to proceed against Dundas, for the offences of which he was alleged to be guilty ? Mr. STANLEY said it would be in the recollection of the house, that on Friday last the hon. and learned member asked whether be had appointed a person the name of Dumas or Dundee, who bad been employed un the constabulary of Ireland, and who had been dismissed during the time he (Mr. Stanley) was in office, from that situation to the situation of stipendiary magistrate in the West Indies. Now the name of Dundas was a some what remarkable name, and it so happened that one or two persons so named did reside in the county of Armagh, and were employed in the constabulary. He had to state, in reply to the hon. and learned member, that to the best of his belief no person of that name who had been employed in the constabulary of Ireland had been appointed stipendiary magistrate in the West Indies, and iu making that declaration, he hoped the house would give him credit for not stating that which at the time he did not really believe—(Heal) — and th :t he should appoint a person to such a situation who had been guity of the practices alluded to. On Saturday morning, however, it was with regret and surprise that he learned that a Mr. Dundas had been recently ap pointed by himself to the situation of stipendiary magistrate in the West Indies, on the recom mendation of a respectable gentleman, whom he had every reason to place the greatest reliance, and whose recom mendation he did not, until that morning, believe to be otherwise than a correct one. He then found that Mr. Ltindas was the same person who was involved in a very discreditable transaction in the ye,ir 1827—three years before be (Mr. Stanley) came into office. As soon as he learned this, on Saturday morn ing, he sent off a revoke of the appointment, and then he communicated with the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. O'Connell) whet he had ascertained. The hon. gen tleman had asked him when the appointment took place; the promise to make the appointment had been made some months before, but it was understood that no salary was to be granted until the officer had reached his destination. He (Mr. Stanley) believed that person bad not yet sailed from this country; but whether he had sailed or not, the order to revoke the appointment bad, in accordance with his (Mr. Stanley's) duty, been instantly forwarded. As to the party whose recommendation had induced the appointment, he trusted the house would not ask his name—( Heer, hear) ---but if it were any satisfaction to the hon. and learned member opposite, lie would state that it was no gentleman from Ireland—it was no Irishman—(Hear, hear). —at all events he did not believe the party knew the facts which had been alluded to.. — ( Hear, hear.) the nest question asked by the hon. and learned gentle man was, whether it was the intention of the Government to take any steps against the party who had made the re commendation. With regard to the person Dundas having been a fugitive since 1827, in order to escape a pro secution, he would only say, it was no part of the duty of government to interfere in criminal pro ceedings ; neither did the person who recommended hint know anything of that fact. Since 1827 all that lie knew if Dundas was, that he was in very dis tressed circumstances, and he had allowed him an an nuity since that time. He communicated that fact when he applied for the appointment, and also stated his determination to continue that annuity whether be succeeded in obtaining it or not ; therefore it could not he said that he had made the recommendation from interested motives.—(Hear, hear.) (Ie (Mr. S.) knew personally of the high respectability of the party re' commending, and would himself answer for his ignorance of the former transactions. lie (Mr. S.) was very glad that he had an opportunity of cancelling the appointment before any expense had been enta.led upon the country.-- (Hear and cheers.) He, and lie alone, was open to any censure that might be attached—(The latter part of the sen tence was drowned its loud cries of "No, no.") He trusted that he bad taken the most straightforward way -- (Cheers)—of rectifying the error be had inadvertently fallen into, anti that the house would excuse him for the fault he had committed, which had so occupied their time.—(Cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL said that he, fur one, joined most heartily in the feeling of the house, and fully believed that the right hon. gentleman had been imposed upon, and that when he stated, on a former occasion, that no such appointment had taken place, he only said what he at that time believed. There remained, however, one other consideration, and one only ; that was, not whether the person who had recommended had been willingly guilty of improper conduct, but whether the Government would he doing its duty in allowing Dundas to escape. The crime of which he h.d been guilty was not of a private nature, nor committed upon an individual, but was a forgery upon the public.—(Heir, hear.) He bad forged passes for the police over the bridge of Wexford to the amount of 181., and had afterwards verified it by affi davit. That man had had in his hands 10,000/. of the public money, and having been found guilty of one such transaction, surely, when the first thing that was heard of him in Ireland was his being appointed to a situation by the government, the public had a right to expect some further inquiry into the affair. He begged leave to inquire of the noble lord opposite whether be did not think a case had been made out for a government prosecution—the crime itself having been committed upon the public ? Sir R. INOLIS wiehld to know whether it was the intention of his Majesty's government to institute any legal or other proceedings with reference to the Glasgow lottery. He did not mean to draw the house into a discussion, but it would depend upon the noble lord's (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) answer, as to whether the government had thought proper to make any inquiry, or whether they intended to submit any - measure on the sn':)ject, what step he (Sir R. Inglis) would take. Lord ALTHORP said be bad already given the only answer which he could give upon the subject. If he believed that he could prevent any further transactions with respect to this lottery, he would do so. Mr. O'CONNELL said, that as the property bad been purchased and sold under an act of Parliament, it would be utterly impossible now for the government to interfere. Mr. HUME wished to know whether there had been any arrangement made respecting the record commission. He understood that there had been lately a new appoint ment to that commission, which it was clear the public sidered a snecure one. The record commission had been appointed to make inquiry. No inquiry was made, the matter stood as before, and-juttice had not been done for the expenditure which had been effected. He wished to know whether any such appointment had taken place. If public officers were subjected to a stricter examination, and notice given beforehand of their appointment, there would not be so many complaints as there were at present of the incompetency of public officers. Lord ALTHORP said that he was not aware that any such appointment as that alluded to by the hon. member had taken place. Mr. O'DWYER asked the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland, why it was that Roman Catholics had been ex cluded from jury panel in the county of Fermanagh. Mr. LITTLETON replied that he could afford no in formation on the matter. He only wished that the law should be administered fairly, to the exclusion of no parti cular sect. The house then resolved itself into a committee of supply. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. ELLICE said he was ready to answer any question put to him by any hon. gentleman regarding the items in the estimates ; when the hon. member moved that the sum of 326,5861. 18s. Hid. be given for the maintenance of his Majesty's land forces after the Ist of April next. On tie question being put from the chair, - Mr. COBBETT, after some observations which the noise in the body of the house prevented our hearing, said he would not now offer any _objection to the number of men called for, but he would object to the amount of their pay. 'When the estimates were last before the house, the right hon. secretary had said he WAS sure no hon. member of that house would object to the amount of the pay, but he ( Mr. Cobbett) said he would, and be thought it should be done without loss of time. Would the right hon. secretary tell them that be could not get men for less pay? What was the fact? Taking the lowest soldiers, the pay was 7s. 6d. a week for subsistence; besides whi c h th ere was a s um of 16,000/. to provide them with small beer or some equivalent. They had also an alloWance for lodging, candles, coal, and, in short, they had almost board and lodging, beside the 7s. 6d. a week. It was not the positive suns to which objection would be made until the h ouse h a d ma d e a comparison between it and the pay of the hard working labourer. There was an honourable baronet, the member for Buckingh3m, who did not usually sit upon that but upon the other side of the house, and who had said, or had almost said, that he (Mr. Cobbett) had been one of those who caused the labourers to set fire to the farm yards. There was a letter of that hon. baron e t t o th e poor l aw comm issioners, in which he stated that the labourers' wages were raised from 3e. 6d. to ss. a week in consequence of these fires, and that the farmers were angry that the wages of the labourers had been increased. The hon. baronet left the house to infer from that that he thought 53. a week too high for labourers. If that was the case (sod he regretted to perceive that the hon. baronet was not in his place; and he bad a right to blame him for not being in his place), he would ask the hon. lhronet to take his letter to the poor law commissioners in his band, and read it to the labourers on his estate, and then he would ask him to take up the army estimates, and tell them that he had voted for paying the lowest soldier 7s. 6d. a week besides clothing, lodging, firing, and candles. This was what the hon. baronet ought to do, and then let hon. gentlemen come to that house and tell the country of the anger and revenge that had been excited by such treatment in the bosoms of the labourers. The right hon. secretary had described the hardships endured by the soldiers in foreign climes. If the house would take the noncommissioned officers along with the men and the musicians, their pay would altogether amount on an average to Iliad. a day, and that left. a day included the board and lodging, but the right honourable secretary had said, and this was a very eloquent part of his statement, that hon. members should consider the hardships they had to endure abroad—they were taken to the cold regions and then to the hot regions, so that they were almost broiling in one region and frost-bitten in the other.•—(Hear, hear.) Now the right hon. secretary was a very candid, a very clever, a very sensible, and a very honest man—(Cheers) —but he knew nothing of what he was talking about when he said that.—(Laughter.) He knew no more about the matter, and that he (Mr. C.) would show him in half a minute, than the youngest of his children, which, pro bably, was in Its cradle. Now he (Mr. C.) did know something about this matter. To be sure he had never experienced the di eadful scorching and broiling heat which the light lion. Secretary had so elo quently described, but he had been in at least as cold a region as any Englishman. He bad been there for seven years at a time, and the life he had led there he must say was a very pleasant one. The summers, which were very pleasant, were spent in fishing, shooting wild pigeons, rambling shalt in woods, and visiting the dwellings of the Yankee girls.—(Great laughter.) The winters were spent in skating on - the river, and sitting by the side of a good fire, singing, laughing, and drinking rum, at sevenpence a quart.—(Great laughter.) But where did they get their victuals ? He would make the comparison between what they had and what the soldiers have, and what the labouring men of England have who paid for it. They had 71bs. of flour, that was Whir. of bread, of the very best pork that could be bought, six ounces of butter, a quart of pease, or a quart of rice every week of their lives, which he would pledge himself was a great deal more than fell to the lot of any honest labourer's tamily in England.—(Cries of " Hear.") Was it to he said that men were not to be got to endure hardships like those for the pay which the men now received ? The right hon. Secretary asked, would the house undertake to reduce their pay ?—(dear, hear.) He would certainly not undertake to break the bargain which had been entered into with them. The right hon. Se cretary had then asked how would the house get rid of them? Why, were they nut janissaries ? Could the King not get rid of them ? It he could not, a pretty command he must have over them at that moment. They got rid of Sir 11. Wilson without much difficulty. The right lion. Secretary himself proposed to reduce the aro:) , 8,000 ; but that was literally nothing. Millions were voted and paid to those two corporations, the navy and the army, wlhout ever considering the necessity of it, or the effect of it on the suffering country. It was not his Majesty's ministers who could put an end to that, or get rid of such a system without the aid of the house. That house must assist them, otherwise they could never succeed in relieving the country from it. It was, indeed, altogether impossible to disconnect the high p aid soldiers from the proposition of the miserable state of the poor and the poor laws of this country ; and it was not to be supposed that the commissioners who had been ap pointed were, upon the propositions laid down by two or three newspaper reporters, and a few barbarian bishops, to make a report which was to have the effect of continuing this lavish expenditure, and to take from the labourers the scanty pittance they now had. It was proposed by these commissioners to shut up the poor labourers in a tort of bastile ; but there would be time enough to combat such a proposition as that. Without taking up the time of the house further, he did not intend to oppose this vote, because the men had been given ; the number named had been considered necessary ; they must be paid ; he hail no desire to break the bargain with them ; it could not b., cancelled, and for this year, therefore, he would not oppose the vote. Mr. METHUEN said that although the labourers in the country might not always be so well and regularly fed, they received more money than the soldiers and were as well paid. The hon. member for Oldham had selected one subj.:et from others which be might have better brought forward; but he (Mr. M.) did not believe any one would say that the soldiers were overpaid. The hon. member bad produced many painful facts respecting the labourers, but it he were to take many classes of labourers in London, as the shoe-makers, boot-makers, painters, gcc., he would find they were better paid than soldiers. Sir H. HARDINGE was astonisned to hear the com plaints of the hon. member for Oldham, and did not ex pect that that hon. member would have introduced a subject whica tended to lower the credit and character of the soldiers of the country. He differed entirely from that hon. member, and contended that sol liters, so far from bei ng a di ssat i s fi e d, were a sat i s fi e d, loyal body of men, although th e y received a smaller pito ranee than any class in hi s Majesty's dominions, except one. The right hon. baronet then adverted to pale 258 of the report of the commissioners of the poor laws, as corroborative of his state►»ent that the so)tliers were not so well paid as even the paupers in workhouses. The report of the poor law commissioners placed the soldier the second lowest on the scale as to comfort, lower even than the transported thief, but whilst be ad. mitted this, the soldier, he would add, was perfectly con• tented and happy, if the hon. member woull let him remain so. Lord ALTHORP was surprised at the statement of the hon. member for Oldham, and was sure that there was not another member in the house who would wish to reduce the pay of the soldiery. With respect to the poor law comrnission,be could assure the member and the house if necessary, that whatever course the government would adopt respecting the poor law commissioners, they had not any intention of placing the agricultural labourer in a worse situation than he was at present. Colonel DAVIES deprecated any comparison between the soldiers' condition and that of paupers or convicts. After deducting all the necessaries of a soldier, such as food, &c., there remained only three-pence farthing a day, or 01. per annum.—(Hear.) Taking away beer money, there remained only twopence farthing. To prevent illicit indulgence on the part of 'the soldier, it was found necessary to make daily payments to the sol dier, lest too much money should accumulate with the soldiers ; if a contract was made with the soldiers it ought to be preserved. Sir H. HARDINGE could assure the house that French and Prussian soldiers were much better off than British soldiers. _ _ . Mr. COBBETT rose and denied the truth of what the hon. baronet had read from the book on the table. He only imputed to soldiers a wish to live well upon the earnings of the labourer. He had done so himself when in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and in spite of what had been said of the sufferings of the soldiers, they had enough of every thing, and more than enough. Mr. ELLICE said he had reduced the number of sol diers, and as to reducing the pay, the house would not consent to a breach of existing contracts. Mr. GUEST addressed some observations to the Com mittee on the propriety of reducing the pay of the house hold troops to the same rate as that of the troops of the line ; but the hon. gentleman spoke in such a low tone of voice, that his observations were inaudible in the gallery. He concluded with moving that 68.6991. be deducted from the vote, with the view of carrying into effect his proposition for equalizing the pay of the Guards and other troops. . Air. ELLICE said that he could prove by aculations what he had stated on Friday night, that the Guards, as a corps, including all their officers, cost less than an equal number of the Infantry of the Line, making allowance for the penny additional which was given to them in con- sequence of the extra duties. Or; a comparison of the expense of seven battalions of the Guards with seven bat talions of the Line, both containing about 6,440 bayo nets, it appeared that the Guards cost 210,5081., or about 451. 7s. Sd. per man; whilst the Line cost 200,1081., or about 421. 3s. 7d. per man, the difference being very trifling and much more than accounted for by the additional penny per• diem, granted to the former in consequence of their having to perform duty in the metropolis. Con sidering the additional' duty which fell upon them, and that the increase was one of very long standing, he thought it was of a nature which did not call strongly for a reduc• tion, which would create great dissatisfaction.—(Hear.) Reference had been made to the Life Guards, but this force was, as it were, attached to the Crown, and formed part of its state and dignity. Still the expense of the Life Guards was much over-estimated ; and he could as sure the hon. member opposite, that they had only nine teen more horses on their effective establishment than in 1792.—(Hear.) There was certainly some difference between the two descriptions of household troops, the Life Guards having 3d. per day more than the Blues. How this difference was, he could not tell ; and his atten tion had just been called to the circumstance. He though: - it would be but justice to the men to place them on an ..quality, and he would do all in his power to reduce the difference; but he could assure hon. gentlemen opposite, that it was more easy to propose such a thing in that house than to effect it.—(Hear.) After a few words from Mr. M. Attwood, Sir FL Hardinge, Colonel Evans, and Mr. O'Connell, Mr. T. ATTWOOD condemned the attempt to cut down the'salary of the soldier, and disapproved of those reductions in the army. He would he glad to see large reductions in high quarters, but he deprecated such low and paltry economy ; those miserable attempts to pinch and screw a petty saving from the hard earnings of the unfortunate soldier.—(Cheers and laughter.) The hon. member for o;dham had said that the pay of a private soldier had of late years been doubled. Why so it had, and so had the salaries of the ministers and the judges. Cut them down half too.—(A laugh.) The rent also had been doubled.--(0h ! and great laughter.) Yes it had ; the rent of land had been equally and fraudulently raised.—(Oh.) He deprecated this candle ends and cheese parings economy.—(Laughter.) What, were they going to do this when they would want an increased force ? The honour of the nation had been much neglected for want of competent force, and England had not assumed a proper position of resistance towards Russia. He bad seen ►,he pretty recommendations of the poor law commi!-sioners.— (Question.) It was the question—for a magistrate had said, that if those recommendations were carried into effect, it would take 40,000 men to preserve order in the county of Kent, and this he would from his own knowledge prove, that they would require 20,000 men to keep Birmingham quiet if those suggestions were adopted.—(Oh.) To give the house some idea of the subject, he would just tell them how the paupers in his parish were employed, and their pay, which they might compare with that of the soldier. He bad the list delivered into his own hand byone of the parish offi cers in December last. These paupers were employed by the officers in wheeling sand and stones.—(Question.) It was the question. Sixty-one able bodied paupers were employed in wheeling sand. This was the number of those who wheeled sand.—(A laugh.) It was no laugh. ing matter : be wished some of the hon. members who laughed had to wheel wheelbarrows full of sand all day long ; they would not hue) then.—(Renewed laughter.) The single men were only allowed Is. a day; a married man with one child Is. 4d. ; with three children Is. '7d., and with four er more 2s. Now these wheelbarrows full of sand—(Laughter)—The hon. member (whose manner throughout was particularly vehement) said he was sur prised what hon. members could find to laugh at. 11, did not approve of such low rihaldry.—(Loud laughter.) Well, this wheelbarrow full of sand weighed 1401 b., which those labourers had to wheel up hill, and then to wheel the empty barrow back again, making a mile and a half. This _ . was to be done 16 times in the course of the day, being a 21 miles' march, for which these men got ls. I3ut eight of these miles they had to wheel the laden barrow up hill He should allow six miles more for that.—(A laugh.) That made altogether 30 miles a-day. which these Bir mingham button-m daers had to go with their barrows, and only for Is. Thirty miles would be a tremendous march even for soldiers, brought up to marching, though makers? t tb he e y o, w m o o n e ld t s d u O ch it a fo m r atrhceh dailyglo of be their to thoseou n ;o Y Or b u What, n Mr. HUME said, the h on. member who had j ust sat c down seemed to feel offended a t the j ocularit y with which r o some of his remarks had been treated by the house. But really he (Mr. flume) had listened to him from the com mencement of his speech with considerable anxiety to as certain whether he was in earnest or not.—( Hear , hear.) He could scarcely believe the hon. gentleman was in ear.• nest, particularly in the latter part of his speech.---(Loud cheers.) He had stated some things, certainly, which were very proper to be brought forward at a proper time. ...—(Hear, hear.) The hon. member said these poor men were unable to exist on so small an allowance, and yet he wished the army increased, of course in contemplation 01 a war. But it was unnecessary to add to the strength of the army that his Birmingham friends might be better paid. Was not such an addition likely to produce a con- , trary effect ?—(Hear.) The- hon. gentleman had spoken of the encroachments of Russia, but would the hon. gentleman, in his chivalry, have sent out armies to Warsaa and Constantinople ? If so, the addition must have been a pretty large one.—(Hear, hear.) It really appeared as it the hon. gentleman were anxious to drive the country into a war, in order to afflict it with a deluge of paper.— (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") If the hon. member, from his experience, was not satisfied of the real conse quences and melancholy results of that system, he was glad to say the majority in that house took a very opposite view to that entertained by the hon. member. We had made one false step, but we bad got out of the scrape pretty well, though not without being tolerably well scorched, and never, he trusted, ,would they go back to such perilous times.—(Hear, hear.) He asked the hon. m. tuber how he reconciled this proposition to the pledges given to his constituents ? The hon. member had pledged himself to economy. Mr. ATTWOOD—No, no.—(Laughter.) Mr. HUME—WeII, at least his constituents will expect it. The hon. gentleman bad supported the Reform Bill, and was not cheap government the object of that Bill ? (No, no, from Mr. Attwood.) Ready, then, he (Mr. Hume) did not know what the object was.—(Hear, hear.) And after the description which the hon. member bad given of the distress prevailing in Birmingham, which certainly called aloud for reduction, his proposition to in ' crease ;he army was one of the most monstrous and on. e ailed the saving candle ends and cheese ; be. slg° timely he ever heard.—(lleir, hear.) The hon. complained of them, but for a very different reason ; val because be wished to see more such parings. He b e heard nothing since the last debate to induce him to c hange ' is opinions that mote men might be reduced ; but the e should house having declared against him on that point, h toot again introduce the subject, tut would merely statestage hat he did not at preeent deem visib to reduce . pay of th e men.—(Hear, bear, bear.) Still the expendi; tore for this department was very onerous. We were sot in a state in which we coul I possibly continue i th u s ddeu And if any prose of six millions for the army.:sittia pressure should come upon the country, in whatd if they tion would his Majesty's Government be Pla ce the ‘vent on tasking her, even in peaceable to the re fore, prot est most of her strength? He must still, There were against the scale of our military expenditure• ttene two or three items to which he wished to call the ao the mernbier i s tion of the committee. And, first, with respect t ment, by the right lion. o-entleman, of 30,000/. a ye: a _ recruiting. A saving had been effected in that depart, which was satisfactory as far as it went ; but he ,s, at a loss to understand why though our ranks were all filled up, yet the country was still saddled with the expen .1 of 10,0001. a year for recruiting. There was also antebia- pense of 2,000/. fer recruiting of colonial corps, and h t at a time when all recruiting for them was stoPPe d ' T of I next it em t o which he wished to advert was, the charge 1 19,0001. a cline.der the head of mess -money for t officers of the The right hon. gentleman bad re* duced the table money of the Guards from 4,000/. Why did he not reduce the other ? But eV; the 4,0001. still retained as table money for the Gua r If appeared to him to be too much. Surely that Was much for seven individual,. [An bop. member obsert!de that there were thirteen.] Even for that number tl_,_ sum was large. Besides the allowances to officers WWI.: on the march, by route, of 4. 9621., and the allosvances I. aid of regimental mess of corps, in Great Britain, ta Ireland, in the West Indies, and in Bermuda, of 8,5501'1: there was an extra allowance to Rifle corps of 0 4° What was that ? There were also allowances to o fficer s commanding, and to acting staff officers, and non-c° r ufssioned officers of depots of regiments on foreign service, of 9,479/. Why did not that form part of the geners l expenses of the depots ? Then there were travel' a n d expenses of officers, and varioue other iteta: under the head of " Regimental Contingencies' which might well admit of curtailment. He co at a loss to understand how his Majesty's pres. nt Govern. meet could look the house in the face, retaining, as t bei e did now they bad power to curtail it, that expendito.% 6,000/. to against which, when they bad not the power to curtail .% guard which a be ewas Dublin persuaded Castle. would This they exclaimed so loudly anti justly. Besides the table ri St. James's, for the officers of the Life and Foot Guare; thheartefolass ofa tfaabolteiona,llowwaasnwceitohfdrloo4l. fortbe oizoerast:,, ls a t one which induced him to wish that the Lord Lieuteoao e manifold llowances hel, advantages. There were other 3 , 11 0 officers which granteu to t i, were understood to have been officers net who enjoyed them when they were so granted, aa,,, to their successors ; and yet to those successors t he „ either allowances were still continued. All these items raig h th b ', ther withdrawn or diminished without any injury ° t e ,r ' h service ; but, knowing the hopelessness of the atternP". e would not offer to the committee any specific redact°. ' Mr. ELLICE express d his -• w e boa' e persuasion that I a • friend the member for Middlesex would derive sea ° - 0 tisfaction from being informed that the number of m e t voted in pursuance of the present estimates wa s 13 0% wasbe withdrawn attended n oneftfrom nwp Ireland,igt h I many a P e s Y t r snag e.-t greater, as he supposed, than the number voted i ll ~,, } airs 1822 and 1823. All the col onial troops weeetio prehended in the present estimat es, which was not cesit case with the estimates of 1822 and 1825. The el so o therefore, of the present estimates beyond thos e °f „i„, be` and 1823, instead of being 10,000 men wa s ° l , lre tween 5,000 and 6,000. That was a ' fact 1 1 1 1 % tbe thought would be satisfactory to his hon. fried -n t b e house. With regard to the recruiting deparusenotlej agreed with his hon. friend in some respects. earedfle°o that the expense of that department had aPP ~ hie rather too high. But he had done all that it Was % sib! , power to do on the subject. He had trade every 1 ) :, bot representation to the competent authores upon d ' is ' v jeti he had been told by them that if the recruiting bed, those i recruiting districts, and that thereby were reduced, as the recruiting was confiaeJ t o 9t oliels i quarters, it would soon become necessary to re - a ildi' a gra fail to from tons. Fer instance, they were now be very expense would be incurred. He would o° l ib l e , 4l a very watchful on this point, with a view, if e ss con' futurenetted d period, to diminish the expeaditnefe wolf with it. It must be recollected that fro ° the whole of the regiments which came "--- eslo t lt' our colonial possessions, came home perfect home India in that state. When a regiment was if i 0 , v , e ne From India the soldiers who were fit for service ta b % o ta , it d to join other regiments in that country' wit a b t: e °e r e v . ious purpose of avoiding the expense that by erodi n g O P sinned by conveying them to England, an ndbYleurt lira r men to India to fill their places. Bats t id o 1 a those skeleton regiments came home, th ey Oi l „ Ole but giu st a u s e ol deb fill. d up by drafts from other regitnents, up by recruiting. There were other circurnstaadeaction itre prevented at the present moment any flo tber r k e e a Fr eat r the recruiting department; but be hoped to in frienda m i g ht J o, reduction in it by and by; and his hon• og b e coe,./,. pend upon it that he would reduce it as In et , that boulo There was another item on which be Orne i . jd i e seSt o fered from his hon. friend the member for 6 . 1 , office, it well as from the hon. baronet, his predecesolilok tssto member for Dundee. He certainly di d t ,, 0 00 1 0, would be a great hardship to reduce to 07 regoeshr expecting a reogi.niero mess allowances to the officers of mare friend d tbe l 4 thought contingencies of that description nng o coollie Undoubtedly he so far agreed with his hon. Ir!e li n per lir , come with greater propriety into the treasurY thattade' With respect to the table for the King's flna,e d e ge e rese al ei r io had existed almost from the revolution to in' r riety ,ennu is the expense under that head, and riod. He bad gone as far as he could with Pr tbet24, committee would not consider the present item f t r i e l unreasonable. be thoug of 4,ot' „via a,,, Colonel WOOD wished to explain tlie_, ° ;00'4 mess allowances to regiments of the line. tie I th e n lair e , the time when there were no such allowances, " ort tbr t o of the officers had nothing but their an I when it was very painful to be present at a 's, e a .so mess, and see several of the officers eitheerilos; offateio represented to his late Majesty round without taking any, becau se they cc?rcurnstaceedhes pa y to sureciate4A This pay for it, or else quit the table. as to th e l° be was Regent, and after some consideration ~ advisable spet, mode of remedying it, it was deemed increase the pay of the officers, but to make a sriaoider°,lo since, which would allow of the consumption 0 a o ait,',, quantity of wine at the mess tattle, and t here p e e r o Ifto olTeers of the army to take a moderate quaae;tAY def°llo w ile h o s t v her . gentlemen. When the gallantry an fights 9 hid' the British army was at that till os d /b' i sil battles t the.. of the country were considered, be '''' i e p i c P s g-r „," m t anybody would contend that that waste d iloo - if and he Such was the history of the - Wit", # he hoped thy would never be withdrawn: ro il it George spect to the pay of the soldiers, it bad bee n ' rje 3°- 797 the 1796 the Fourths "or 1 , year h • f fictreitf' ellgs ailing been one 0 tied never been increased 1,0 w° d. since. Sir HENRY lIARDINGE hoped, that if t „ Oo s od ~f 4,00 W. a year for the table of the officers or should prove insufficient, the right bon. germ restore the iem to its recent amount. Wil.e t ! ' h oe Feat Ilardinge) held the office now held by the right 'h oe that if the o ut er (, tleman, e found, upon investigation, 8 .. 0 _ B o el the brigade of Guards enjeYei the same the ;op lei coals, candles, &c., which were granted to . co r eot i ot e the regiments of the line, they Would til vil lit 1 i . ,0 12,0001. a year. Sure he was, that if the Le 'oorLe! gentleman had left the item for the table Of t j : b oo tr i o would ~., 09 6,0001., a great majority of that house w„f tu' o,i him out in doing so. The establishment '' r y 00e ir . pre .. r iog ,d , mess was most valuable to-the public. osi oe I , dlow that the discipline of the Guards, c ° e fort e :o ll to r duties • which they might be called up o 0 dio pitt 0, 4 at the highest importance; and that do s oy at: er be endangeredthe table were to be e d SO ''' i the officers were to go in their uniforms a a r 1;0 04 coffee-houses. . he 500 oi l Mr. ELLICE had looked carefully at : Off, was of opinion that 4:000/ ufficie ° ' be Ills . was s , dot a t Sir HENRY HARDINGE repie°7 s - ec retorY th e 1 I,oked carefully at the subject, both aa , , e - d tha t 4 ,0 and as an officer, and he was perose'ribed. riot tractor could not go on at the sum Pr e ' c eiolt Ibat o t o o/ ' Lord DARLINGTON was also of 1- ni t o 4tv be injudicious to reduce the item from 6 ,°° ' - ; t. M I : iosofficao a ll t n o' that the latter sum would be found ' Ou Sir HENRY HARDINGE observed, tba c oe foe be t had said was to recommend 9°llll that, if it. 000 " sufficient, it should be incremed• friend t he o li o( Mr. ELLICE would assume his b oo. the .ael e 1 for Middlesex, who had spoken o n the ' - 1 , 0 0 ' - jee r l ie much good sense and candour ---(S°l:l3eA ' 6o° 4 / 5 made an observation which we could not " i - o liebe - . 1, 11 of He coquetting with the hon. tneinbil for ii lo t h e i vide was incapable of doin so with any one. mee lli If r his duty to attend neithergh recno— alle to t e , 4 00 111 1194 1 friend, still Author to dio un " '