The Sun. — London, England, 1831-04-19 00:00:00

Lord bad shown, by what he had stated, that he coup not have been present when the subject was formerly dis eneeed, because, if he had, it was impossible that he should thane stated that any threat, or anything like a threat, hail news been used by any Peer of that side of the Howse teho represented the Government. With respect to one threat, he had formerly disclaimed it, and had stetesl that he bad n-ither the inclination, nor was he antes d with the autho rity, to make use of any rnettaze. Fie had, however, stated that he and his colleagues were committed to the entaeure, and he was prepared to adviee wlaateVer he thought constitutional and proper to make Measure succeed. With respect to that othee art.: More general threat to which the Nob % Ea:`! alluded, he wished to Know to what extent the Noble i.srl would carry his pro. position ? The Noble Carl said that House was threatened by danger if it rejected the measure. Was it then. a threat, was it anything in the nature of a menace--to consider the political h e ari ngs o f any m e asure, and the con sequences of aolopting or rejecting it? Were they not free to engage in the discussion of the itiventages or disadvantages of any proposed measure, and to state on one side what dangers it was supposed would result if any measure was not adopted, and what advantages would accrue if it were? If the Noble Lord called such discussion a threat, he wsmld preclude a great branch of the most important dieeneae,oses of Statesmen when they introduced measures which they thought essential to the welfare of the etetntry. If such discussion was a threat, it was not possible to avoid it. He believed that the Noble Duke wee not accused of threaten ing their Lordships when he stated, as the chief ground for bringing forward a great measure three years ago, the -greet evils which had resulted from not before carrying it, and the great evils which were then likely to result from Not carrying it, including among them that evil which he, who had looked at war in many shapes, regarded as the greatest evil—civil war ; and when the Noble Duke had deprecated incurring even the risk of exposing the: Country to it, he was not considered as threatening that House, or tieing anything more than making what he considered a just stateire nt of the advantages to be expected from the measure. He was not aware that anything different from that had been said on the present occasion. Certainly, there was a very strong feeling in the public, and he, and the Noble Lords with whom he acted, reeve hound to con eider the prevent state of the country, and what was likelF to be the effect of adopting or rejecting the measure ten the state of public opinion, and on the confidence which the people would be disposed to place in the Government. In presenting such consideration to the House it was im possible that they could have used anything in the nature of a threat, or go beyond the fair line of argument, in re minding their Lordships of the state of the country. arid of the opinions which all persona entertained. Bet if danger had been stated on one side, had nothing of the same kind been said on the other ? Had the Ministers not to complain of threats or menaces as violent as those to which the Noble Earl alluded ? This was undoubtedly a period of great excite ment; and the question was with everybody who looked anxiously to the state of the country, and he had stated so before he had been in office,that a compliance with the wishes of the people was of the greatest importance in producing tranquillity, and was necessary in restoring confidence to the Government, and giving security to the Throne. It was nn these principles he had recommended the measure. That excitement still prevailed throughout the country he was not prepared to deny; but the question for considera tion wag, whether the excitement which prevailed now would be increased by what he considered a safe compli ance with the wishes of the people, or by its being with held, and by their being deprived of the advantages they expected? The balance was a fair subject of considera tion ; and after taking that into consideration, it had been concluded that the excitement would not be in creased but diminished by the measure which his col leagues and he agreed to propose. The Noble Earl said it was not proper in the Government to do any thing to increase the excitement ; he for one could say, that he bad taken not one step for that purpose, though he did not know what attempts might have been made on the other side; but he must say that a more spontaneous expre sion of public opinion—(Hear)—and less excited by any in fluence of the Government, in favour of a measure pro posed by the Government, he had never beheld.—(Hear, hear,)--than on this question, which had been so repro bated by the Noble Lord. Then it was said that this was an ill-prepared measure, and was not ready for discussion. All he could say was, that after he was convinced of the necessity of proposing some measure, he and his colleagues did give their most anxious attention to the subject, and to the best means of effecting what they thonght right ; and if he had failed, which he should deeply regret, he haul nothing to plead in defence of his conduct, but that it was not without consideration, and not till after a most careful examination, that a plan Was proposed to Parliament. If he had failed, it was fur want of ability, not for want of care and consideration. The Noble Lord had adverted to the daily Press, and had asked if the Government had not seen the violent libels and vehement attacks with which it abounded? The Noble Lord said, why did "the Govern ment:4l'l%k? beetute the Noble Lord knew as well as any man that the Government had no thing to do with not allowing the Press. He had no con crete' over the frees. He had no connection now with any of the conductor, of the Public Press. He saw much on all side, to disapprove of. He seriously' repelled all violence and intemperance; but lie also saw much to ad mire in the daily Press, and must say that lie never saw pendia of greater ability among its conductors than at pre sent. But it was said, too, that the Government should disavow an these paragraphs. lie had a great deal to do out of that house; he had also a great deal to do in it, as en that occasion, and it would he a great addition to Ibis labours, such as never before was imposed on any Minister, and such as no Minister could possibly dis charge, to require him to comment, in his place in the House of Lords, upon all the libels that might be contained in the daily papers. Was his inter ference, too, with libels to b, confined to one side?....- (Hear, hear, hear.)--The Noble Lord prob,bly knew that there were papers on his bide which poured out in temperate libels on the Administration, imputing to Mi nisters the worst motives, calling them traitors to their Sovereign, and declaring that their measures would throw the country into confusion.—(Hear, hear.) He looked on these attacks with calmness, and he trusted to the good sense and intelligence of the people—(Hear)—to blunt their effects. He had heard of libels in which lie was referred to, but of which he refused to complain, thinking it more judicious to trust to public opinion for his vindication—(llear)—and thinking that no evil could ultimately arise from any temporary delusion which might be created. He had, therefore, never thought it right to complain of attacks that were quite as strong as those made on the other side, and which Noble Lords deprecated so much when they appeared in Papers that were in favour of Reform. He had nothing further to add, but repeated what he had said at the beginning, that he deprecated this irregular mode of proceeding, and he wished, like his Noble Friend on the cross bench, that it should not become a practice. But though he deprecated such a practice he felt anxious, like the Noble Lord for discussion, being convinced that the measure was founded on Constitutional principles, and that the more it was discussed the lees it would create excitement ; and he was convinced that nothing hut a temperate consideration was necessary to its success The Earl o f HAREWOOD explained that there was a difference between any specific plan of Reform and that Reform in the lump to which he had objected. More nver, when he had objected to giving representatives to large towns, those towns had nut wished them. With regard to the Press, his argument was not that the :Minis ters should controul it ; hut when they found the papers which advocated their, measure advocated it on principles which were dangerous to the Crown, it was their duty to disclaim such advocates and such arguments. The Earl of LIMERICK did not rise to prolong this discussion, but for the purpose of rescuing an individual, who h a d sat long in that House, from unmerited odium. An n attempt had b een ma d e t o cas t, i m p ro p er ly, retlec tio wi,:oprtatat.... Member of that House, and had nothing t o d e House, • . tt was a ques ti on o f th e pr i v il eges o f t h at the mo s t i mpor t ant matter—t h at o f free domt opini on in debate in Parliament. That would be all a N ice if they were to be called ever y morning to account i n t h e pa any thing th ey mi g h t say by the Lords of th e Pre ss for not agree. lie had oftensaywith which the Press did not addressed their Lordships in the course of a long life, but nevero b s e to address them with such unpleasant feelin g s b efore personal, ut th e attack which h 4,1 been made on him was 80 t r h d at he could not suf- Fillips would probe fer it to pass unnoticed. Their bly recollect an unimportant debate A paragraph had which he unfortunately took a 1., t. Friday last, in appeared in one of the daily papers on Saturday in which he had bee n assa il ed in the most scurfl°ast, manner, on account of a statement which b e I h,7, 4 1 made in that House. The Press was the greatest vilifier of character that had ever existed. What could be more mischievous than those libels of the Press, both on pub lic and on private character ? It had been called by some the great charter of our liberties; but it might be better called the charter of tyranny. In this paragraph it was said, with reference to him, that " th , !re were men, or things with human pretensions, nay with lofty privileges, who did not blush to treat the mere proposal of establish ing a fund for the relief of the distressed and helpless Irish with brutal ridintle, and almost impious scorn." The - - - ~:-: . ,• J..-1'...i.• ..ii: ~.„.-..:!•,-,::-.,:: •14:';..4 . ';;•"Ti-. i*f writer of the paragraph t.sbe.' , . 'vituperated him for being an absentee, as if it htd been a strange and novel thing for any of their 10 Chips to choose to reside on one part of his r nperty rather than another. He was sorry to say that It appeared from the accounts ist the otith of Ireland, that things there were geirtg m crorn bad to ivoiSe, for the dis turbances, which had liven fir some time confined to Clsre s had ektended to the Neighbouring counties. It was vertainly tio't peasant to reside in a country in such a stilS. of disdrder ; but the writer had said, " that there 'it Ware some Members of this House who surprised nobody by declaring their indifference to pop's a` 6,':raln—espe cially when they were at such a 'disc nee from Ireland as to insure the safety *of their 'persons." He, however, had served citringtifte fetteilion of 1795-9, and, as an Irish-. man, he repelled with scorn the imputation here throwt, out !...gb.intt him. He would abstain at present front ob. setTatione on any arty subject, and content himself with moving that the person who wrote this paragraph be called to the bar. The LORD PLIANCELLOR—*—the . rinttr and pub lisher were the reerionsiMe y . ,e'rstitis. The proper mode of precreding WaS to r:ut itt the paper and have it read, and then the Noble Earl, if he thought that he was designated, tarter move that the printer he brought to the bar. The Earl of LIMERICK—Although he was not named, vet it was evident that he was the person meant, as he was the only person who spokr. on Friday in support of that side of the question to which the writet alluded. The paragraph r:as theh read, and was as folloWs: " Vet Mean, true!, and atrocious as every civilited mind must eeti-sider the doctrine, that Ireland has no need of poor laws, or *i , %?ne equivalent for them—haterill and abominable as is such a screen for inhumanity:-41`t‘re are men, or things with human pretensions, nay, wikli lofty privileges, who do not blush to treat the mere proposal of establishing a fund for the relief of the diseasect 'ir helpless Irish with brutal ridicule and almost impious seen, Will any man credit that an Irish absent Lord could say What he is reported to have uttered in the House of Myers last night, when Lord Itosebery presented a petition, praying that a compulsory tax on land might be ihtriithiced into Ireland, to wards alleviatin g t ier pout P We shall not name him—because the House of bortis is armed with a thing called a t Bar,' and other tltsagrefehbl'e appendages. But there are Members of that House Who surprise nobody by declaring their indifference to % popular odium,' especially when they are at such a dist a n ce trim Ireland as to insure the safety of their persons." The Earl of LIMERICK then moved that the printer of the Times newspaper be brought to the bar of the House to-morrow, The Earl cf HADDINGTON suggested whether the question should not be first put, whether there was a breach of privilege? The LORD CHANCELLOR—There could be no doubt but that it was a breach of privilege to publish whet paased in that House, or to comment at all on any thing which any Noble Lord said in it, either in public journals, or in private letters, such as that which had been sent a short time ago to soother Noble Lord (Farnham). But at the same time he would add some observetions which were not inapplicable, and which he earnestly recommended to the attention of the House with reference to all these controversies. From his own experience in the other House; and likewise from the experience of others of higher authority, he could say that it was, that the Members who interfered in this manner with these controversies did not soon repent of the course which they had taken, without gaining any great satisfaction for themselves, or any great security against such observations for the future. In cases where plain outrages were committed in the House itself, then unquestionably it would be necessary to interfere. But when the conduct of an individual Noble Lord was im properly commented on, it was proper to look at the diffi culties which even the very extent of their privileges threw iiithe way. Those privileges were part of the law of the land, for they were given them, not on their own account, but on account of the public, and they were extensive. The bare publishing of anything that passed in that House was a breach of privilege, much more to comment on what a Peer had said in the House. To say that a Peer had said so and so in the House was a breach of privilege—much more to state objections to what a Peer had said. The very extent of the privilege was embarrassing to an individual who made complaint tie the House of a breach of privilege: The printer, and not the author, was the person legally respon sible, and when he should be brought to the bar they would, as usual in such cases, have the most complete apology, and the innocence of the party would be pleaded ; and yet, if punishment there should be, he would be the person to be punished, however innocent. In 99 cases nut of every 100 in the other House, it happened that the very person making the complaint was, after an hour's discussion, the very first who wished to get well-rid of the affair. He did not mean to say that this was a reason for their never interfering at all in these cases, but it was a very good reason why they should be prudentially slow to interfere ; and it ought always to be well considered in these cases, whether, upon the whole, it might not be baser to pass the matter by. The expressions in this pa . . ragraph were very coarse certainly, but he had seen and read, or heard of attacks upon himself and his Noble Friend at the head of the Administration ten times more coarse than this, and yet they had thought it more prudent .-. . . to pa! ogi e t ere really so bad, that this paragraph rose al most to a species of courtesy to the Noble Earl in the com parison.--(A laugh.) He had seen and read during the pendency of the Catholic question, about three years ago, attacks upon the Noble Duke who was then at the head of the Administration, and on an Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Pad) in the other House, ten times worse than the pas sage i❑ question, and quite as had as the attacks on him self. So that if he had suffered, his socii doloris were at least creditable enough to keep him in countenance. Yet these attacks had been suffered to pass by. And as for himself, he had adopted one line of conduit when assailed by these attacks, and that was to live on, acting steadily on his own principles, trusting that the effect of this pro ceeding would be, that whatever might be the inconveni ence to him at the moment, truth would, in the end, pre vail. One word more : there was something very vague in the passage as to who or what were meant. No parti cular Peer was named, and it spoke only of what some Peer was reported to have said : and it would seem that they must read all the reports, in order to he sure that they might not he mistaken. That, however, was not the ground on which he rested his recommendation, but he founded it ors the reasons which he had already mentioned He hoped the Noble Earl would see fit to re-consider the matter, and listen to the suggestion which he had thrown out. Notwithstanding occasional abuses of the liberty of the Nevi, yet he must say that it was, on the whole, at present conducted with much more ability and purity and freedom from scandalous attacks on private property, than at the time when he first entered into public life. The Press did not deal now half so much in slanderous libels on private character, as it had formerly done, and he thought that some indulgence might be fairly shown to this great organ of communication, of liberty, and of ci viliz ition. The Earl of ELDON said that this was not merely a comment on what a Peer was reported to have said, but a scurrilous and abusive comment. That it was a libel was beyond all doubt, and the question was, whether, when brought regularly under their notice, they were to pass it over, thereby intimating that they were so feeble, that although'a breach of privilege of an aggravated de scription had been committed, they were afraid to visit it in the manner which it deserved? If the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would divide the House, he (Lord Eldon) would certainly vote for the motion. The Earl of HADDINGTON—It was certainly a mat ter of discretion with the Noble Earl (Limerick) whether to bring this attack on him under the notice of the House, and he thought that the Noble Earl did right in doing so, for he was of opinion that his duty to himse:f and a regard to the honour of the House required it. Generally speak ing, what had been mid by his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack was worthy of consideration. His Noble and Learned Friend had, no doubt, been the subject of attacks of this kind, and had forborne to bring them for ward; and probably he had acted wisely. But if he bad chosen to bring them forward they must have been at tended to. There was a great difference, however, be tween his Noble and Learned Friend, in reference to such attacks, and a private gentleman in either House. His Noble and Learned Friend occupied a very prominent si tuation in the public eye, and therefore he alight well ex pect that his own conduct would make the truth known in the end ; and that these attacks would pass harm less by. But this was not the case with such Members of Parliament as spoke their sentiments in a great measure as private gentlemen, and did not play the prominent parts which were performed by men like his Noble and Learned Friend. Their general con duct was less under the public eye. They might be most seriously injured by such invidious and scurrilous attacks. In this paragraph, a Peer in this House had been held up to scorn in the most scurrilous language; and it was clear that this wa s a gross breach of p r i v il e ge, and an infringe ment on the liberties of Parliament. and the matter now could not be passed over. His Noble and Learned Friend had said that the Press of this day was not so much given It were toi this p r i vate c h aracter as i t h a d f ormer l y b een. B u t made fitting Otnlshould t t ns k was a ti me o f great exc i tement, and most violent charactersat the be ando m f a m ie en ap o p n ear ei t t h h a e t r a s u id e e h , things were not to be d an Illustriou s and Q a i r Lady impunity.. He had seen whose station, character, y and d dy assailed in this manner, her against such scurrlous abuse,sex ought to his opinion could not he passed over, and if the In o his opinion this vided, he would certainly vote in supporut'oef should be ' The LORD CHANCELLOR—He had not In n o ki tion tb . at he meant to divide the House. He had merely addressed his observations to the discretion cf the Noble Earl who had made the motion. If the t'eble Earl persisted, why then the tkoutk• bad no choice. They must proceed, and it was a the last importance to their own dignity, a n d even to the preservation of their privileges, that what they did should be done unanimously. What his Soble Friend had stited as to scurrilous attkt•ki.. on the Illustrious and Royal Lady alluded certainly gave him great pain, a n d he was !..sto;;;shed that such should have been made, w e ll knowing how entirely they were without foundation. fh. certainly had never heard of them. Lord ROLLE bore the strongest testimony to the ex cellent character of the Illustrious and Royal personage alluded to. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—This was the very paper in which the scandalous allusions to that Ill u „ trious te.d!,7 had been made. As to the paragraph i ❑ qneiLion, it was a libel, not merely on the Noble Earl, but on the whole of their Lordships. He differed widely from the Noble and Learned Lore on the woolsack, who argued that it would be better to pass the matter over, It was an outrage on the House, which must be noticed. Their Lordships were called " things with human preten sions." What ! could it be endured that they should b e called " things with human pretensions ?" Things with human pretensions ! That applied to all their Lordships. It was one of the greatest outrages on the House that he had ever seen or heard of; and yet the Noble and Learned Lord wished to treat it so tenderly, that one would almost think that he himself had been a writer in this paper. As to the allusions to an Illustrious Lady, the Noble and Learned Lord ought to have directed the authors to be prosecuted by the Attorney-General., The LORD CHANCELLOR—Why he had stated that he had never heard of them ; and the argument of the Noble Marquis wait " because you have never heard of them, you ought to have directed the authors to be prose cuted."—(A laugh.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—The Noble and Learned Lord had heard of them now ; and it was to be hoped he would lose no time in ordering a prosecution. Lord TEYNHAM was present when the Noble Earl (Limerick) made 'his observations, and knew that the Noble Earl had said nothing to call for such an attack as this. Their Lordships had seen what had been done by the Newspapers in France, and this ought to he a solemn warning to them to put some check on the Newspapers here, and not allow them to carry their license to such a dangerous extent. _ _ The motion, " That the Printer of the Times be brought to the Bar to-morrow," was then put and carried. Lord ROLLE begged leave to auk the Noble Earl at the head of the Administration, whether he had not received some papers from the Rotunda ; and, if he had, would the Noble Earl he pleased to mention the nature of their con tents ? Earl GREY said, that he had received the papers al luded to, but had not bad an opportunity of examining mi nutely into the nature of their contents. Lord ROLLE—Was there any thing in them about the Archbishop of Canterbury ?—(Order, order.) . - Earl GREY—There was something in them about that Very Reverend Prelate, who was represented in a situation vet).- inconsistent with his dignity and station. Lord ROLLE—Had the Noble Earl ordered a prosecn tion by the Attorney-General ? Earl GREY, as we understood him to say, answered, that he had not examined the papers so minutely as to enable him to make up his mind on that subject. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from a Mr. Joseph Hutton, the owner of property in the West Indies, praying that the Colonies might be directly represented in Parliament. The Earl of RADNOR presented a petition from Leices ter in favour •f the Ministerial plan of Reform. The Bishop of ROCHESTER presented a petition against Colonial Slavery. The Committee of the Bankrupts' Courts Bill was post poned from Thursday till Monday next, as several of his Majesty's Ministers could not attend on Thursday. CIVIL LIST. Earl GREY said that it would be more convenient if the discussion on the Civil List Bill could be taken on a future stage of the Bill. He would, therefore, propose that the Bill should be read a second time then, and com mitted to-morrow (this day), with the understanding that the discussion should come on them. This arrangement being agreed to, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed this day. REFORM. Lord DURHAM prepented a petition from the Ward o Bridge, in favour of Reform. Mr. Crater, from the Treasury, presented the Treasury Minute respecting the reduction of the salaries of official persons holding seats in either House of Parliament. To be printed.—Adjourned at Half-past Seven. HO USE OF OMM() N,c /c galleries and every avenue leading - to the House were crowded at an early hour, and every seat in the House was labelled with the name of a Member. Mr. J. SMITH presented a petition in favoar of Re form from the merchants, bankers, and tradesmen of the city of London. The petition was signed by 9,600 persons, and was agreed to at one of the most ex traordinary meetings that ever occurred in the city, there being only two dissenting voices. The petitioners were of opinion that so far from the proposed measure of Re form being revolutioasry, it would give additional security to the establishments of the coantry. Mr. PHILLPOTTS presented a petition from Berkeley in favour of Reform, and another from Gloucester (from the Magistrates) against the recent alterations in the Beer Bill. Mr. PALMER presented a petition from Berkshire against the Beer Bill. He hoped Ministers would bring the subject before the House. Mr. F. PALMER, as a Magistrate, did not think the Beer Bill had had the least mischievous effect. Mr. HODGES presented a petition from Hythe and another place in Kent, in favour of Reform. Mr. HOWARD supported the petition, and would vote fur the Bill through all its stages. Mr. HODGES also presented a petition from Lowe stoffe, and another from the freeholdvrs of Sussex, in fa vonr of Reform. Alderman WINCHESTER—As one of the freeholders ' of the county of Sussex, from whom the petition just now presented by the Hon. Member for the county of Kent purports to be, I am desirous of ascertaining to what parts of the Noble Paymaster's Bill for the Re form of Parliament its prayer particularly alludes ; for if I understood the Noble Lord rightly, the other night, he declared his readiness to abandon a great part of the principle of the Bill now before the House.— (" Hear, hear," and " No, no," from many Members.) Some Hon. Members say "No, no ;" but I beg to state that such is the fact, awl I am not alone in that impres sion, both as regards the opinion in this House and out of doors. I shall now express my dissent from the prayer of the petition, that as it mentions freeholders generally, it might not be understood I was at all concerned in for warding, or of being interested in that measure. Mr. CURTEIS said the measure had his decided sup port. Ile was sure the freeholders of Sussex wished for the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. Mr. SHELLEY was present at the meeting, and be lieved he was the only opponent to the petition. He thought he could state that not thirty free holders were present.—(Hear.) The petition was only agreed to by the tact of the Sheriff, and in his opinion the Bill was not popular with the majority of the freeholders of Sussex.—(Bear.) Lord G. LENNOX had been through every town and village in Sussex, and was convinced that there was not a single individual but what was in favour of the plan of Reform.—(Heir, hear.) He begged to state that the meeting was most numerously , attended, and the Hon. Member who opposed it could get only himself and two drunken Lewes men to oppose the petition.—( Exceed ing laughter.) Mr. CURTEIS was convinced the freeholders would ityport the Bill with their lives and fortunes. Mr. CRESSET PELHAM had hitherto been an inde pendent freeholder, but if this Bill passed into a law he should no longer remain so.—(Hear, hear.) The petition was then ordered to be printed. Mr. COOPER presented a petition from Sligo against Reform. Mr. O'CONNELL said the petition was not agreed to at a public meeting ; if a meeting had been called at all, the majority would have been in favour of the measure. Sir J. YORKE and Mr. OWEN O'CONNOR made a few observations. Mr. COOPER could assure the House that the petition was in accordanc e with the feeling of the immense majo rity of the people of Sligo. Mr. G. DAWSON said, if the Bill was carried, it would overthrow the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. He denied that Sligo was a corrupt borough. An HON. MEMBER said the borough was regularly bought and sold. Mr. G. DAWSON —Can the Hon. Member say that he ever knew the borough was bought and sold 1—( Hear. ) Sir J. NEWPORT, if necessary, could prove at the bar of the House, that the borough was sold to the highest bidder ; and if a Jew bid the most money, so matter, he would have it.—(Laughter.) Mr. C. FERGUSON-4f it Were pot a fact that bortrighs were bought and sold, where was the tree of the seven days' debate on the Reform Bill ? After a few word§ from Mr. O'Costeiehi., the petition was ordered to be printed. Major MACNAMABA presented two petitions from the parishes of Tulle and Quin, in the county of Clare, in favour rf Reform, both of which were numerously and respectably signed. Amongst the gentlemen who had signed the petition were, Mr. O'Callaghan, of Maryport ; Mr. Creagli, of Dangan ; and Mr. Singleton, of Quinvill. Mr. M. O'CONNELL seconded the nio'ion for layine the petitions on the table. Major MACNAMARA presented a petition from Gal way, praying for the extension of the elective franchise. Mr. O'CONNELL presented four petitions from parishes in Monaghan, Cork, Tipperary, and Wexford, in favour of Parliamentary Reform. Mr. PEARSE presented a petition from the corpora tion of Devizes, against the Parliamentary Reform Bill. Mr. WATSON TAYLOR supported the petition, and said that although he was aware that le risked popularity by opposing the Bill, he had opposed it, and should con• tinue to oppose it. Mr. LONG WELLESLEY expressed his convicti on that the petition which he had presented from Devizes *peke the real sense of the corporation. It appea , ed that the patronage of Lord Sidmouth had been very successfully used in that borough. Mr. WATSON TAYLOR observed, that the petition which had been presented by his Hon. Colleague was una nimously agreed to. It was signed by every Member of the corporation. Mr. LONG WELLESLEY stated that nine members of the corporation had signed the former petition. Mr. ESTCOURT denied that Devizes was under the patronage of any human being. It was true that it had been formerly represented by Lord Sidmoutli, whose vir tues and merits would never be forgotten ; but no undue influence of any description was exercised in the borough. Mr. BAYNTUN had no intention of addressing the House upon the petition which had been presented from Devizes, had not an observation been made by one of the Hon. Members that it had been unanimously signed and agreed upon. Now he felt himself in a particular posi tion ; he had the honour of belonging to that corporation, and although he had received no intimation of the meet ing—much more, had not attended it, he had heard, and heard with satisfaction, that many of that very corporate body were friendly to the Reform brought forward by his Majesty's Government; and that in the very corporation itself he might be borne out in stating, that a very strong feeling excited in its favour. With reference to the town, he knew that the measure was hailed with the greatest satisfaction by all its inhabitants, and as a member of that corporate body, he should be very unwilling to with hold the elective franchise from his fellow -townsmen, mmy of whom were of the highest respectability, though unconnected with the corporation. The petition, there fore, could not be considered a unanimous one. Mr. FLUME said he did net rise to make any observa tions on the petition that Led just been presented, but to make a statement which he considered of great import ance. It had been intimated to that House publicly that a great many of the lower class of people in Lancashire were opposed to the present measure of Reform. So far from this being the fact, he was authorised from most respectable quarters to state that the lower class of people were almost unanimous throughout that county in favour of the measure—that they hailed it as a great and important boon from one end of the county to the other. Also, that at every one of the meetings and dinners that the honourable Member for Pres ton had attended, the health of his Majesty's Ministers, and success to their proposed measure of Reform, had been given and drank with the utmost enthusiasm ; and if at those meetings there appeared to be any one single individual opposed to the measure, it pro bably was the Hon. Member for Preston himself.— (Cheers.) Attempts, indeed, were made to raise dis approbation of the measure, and questions were asked, such as would they not prefer universal suffrage to the proposed measure ?—(Cries of hear, hear.)—Why put it to any man ?—Put it to himself (Mr. H.), and be would say he would rather have universal suffrage.—(Loud cheers.)— This was his candid opinion, and why should hr disguise it ? (Cries of hear, hear, hear.) —But becanse he entertained an opinion that universal suffrage would be better, was he to set up that opinion against his Majesty's Ministers and against the country ?—(Cheers.) The measure now pro posed was so important, and fraeght with such immense benefit to the public at large, that he felt he should be un worthy of the confidence of any person, did he not give it his warmest support. In the course often days the House \you'd be fully satisfied by the petitions which would come from the working and lower classes of society in Lanca shire, that the representation which had been tirade of their feeling of opposition to the measure, had been a most ex awe improper representation. (Loud cheers, and hear.)—This he was anxious to state in the most distinct terms, as the Hon. Member for Pres ton's speech misrepresenting the feeling of Lanca shire had undergone two or three editions, and been very abundantly circulated throughont the country. Mr. LITTLETON had also been desired to give the flattest contradiction to the statement of the Hon. Member for Preston that the working class of people were not in favour of the present measure.—(Hear.) He believed that no measure had ever been proposed to any Parliament in hich there had been such unanimity of feeling in its favour on the part of the working class of people through out this country. He held in his hand a letter from a highly respectable clergyman in the neighbourhood of Durlaston, an extract of which he begged leave to read. The writer stated " I saw veeterday by ap pointment several very respectable individuals of Dur laston, who went out of curiosity to a meeting that took place there to hear what Mr. Hunt had to say. They assure me they did not hear any thing from any one individual in opposition to the Bill, nor do they believe there is one to he found there who is opposed to it; on the con trary, the Political Union, who are supporters of him (I beg pardon for mentioning the name) are disgusted with him." In another part of the letter be says—" Mr. hunt said, do you return any Members here for Parliamee t? A man said no. He said how far are you from Cover try ? A man said, 30 miles. He said to another, how far are you from Tam worth?—A man said, 20 miles. Then, said Hurt, go in a body at the next election, and don't let those pieces send such Members to Parliament as they have hitherto done— lay hold of the electors—persuade them as you can ; if that will not do, squeeze them pretty hard ; if that will not do, put a tourniquet round them, and screw that pretty hard." Now, until this was flatly contradicted, he (Mr. L.) should believe that the whole of it was true. It had been communicated to him from a most respectable source-- he had no lea than three or four and twenty letters on the same subject, received on Saturday, and io the course of to-day.e•-•( Hear. ) One of the letters stated that a petition from the working class of Durlaston would be imme diately sent up to that House in favour of the measure. A meeting, for the purpose of agreeing upon the terms of the petition, and of signing it, had been called. One of the placards calling it he held in his hand, and it stated that the object was, among other things, " to celebrate the triumph of the glorious cause in the hands of our belOved Sovereign and his enlightened Ministers."—(Lond cheers.) Mr. HUNT said that in the first place, as to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he should perhaps in some measure confirm his statement. In regard to what had fallen from the Honourable Member respecting Durlaston, he had to say that he had been at a meeting that took place there. He was at Birming ham on his way to Preston, and at Birmingham was invited to attend a meeting in Warwickshire. In reply, he said he had no property there, and he should not go, but would spend the day in Birmingham. Two members of the Birmingham Union (one a Mr. Western, a most respectable man) waited on him, and invited him to at tend a meeting at Durlaston, saying, if he would go he should have a seat there and hack in their, c arriage, and this was the way in whi c h be hail got among the Hon. Member's constituents opposite. In consequence lie (Mr. H.) believed of his being present on that occasion, instead of there being 50 to dine when dinner had been prepare d, there were nearly 300.—(111uch laughter.) He was invited to address the persons assembled, sad the discussion arose upon the present measure of Reform. He certainly did put two or three questions to them. They were mostly working men, and not of the class which he should call 101. freeholders. In answer to what was stated in the House the other day with respect to putting leading questions, he admitted that he had put leading questions ; and he would appeal to any Hon. and Learned Member in that House whether, in a Court of Justice, leading questions were not permitted for the purpose of eliciting truth, and the whole truth. (Hear.) He asked those present whether they would be likely to come within the class of those who would have a vote in the representation? A great portion of them said they were not. He then asked them whether they would choose to delegate to the 101. inhabitants, the Bill, their right to vote, and r Y oom was, certainly not. After j aw asnrs" proposedenrvin te' b ited l t i o go to a multitude, no doubt partly 'inctsouhLar their e w hear the leaders of the Birmingham Union, and partly that he might be heard himself. He was told that he then addressed 10,000 people, and to whom he repeated his questions, and from whom he got !similar answers., The Hon. Members for Staffordshire and Middlesex stated that Meetings had been held all over the country, and that the people were unanimous on the measure. lie (Mr. H.) had stated the same thing, and that the people were running mad for it. The Hon. Member for Boroughbridge had called it 6 ' Russell's Purge Bill." It might be entitleno that epithet from those who were to be scoured out of Parliament by its operations, but he should apply some other term to it. It was a Bill to disfran chise 60 boroughs and to knock off 120 Members.— Now it seemed the Noble Lord had put them all together into an oven ; he had pounded them, and blinded the eyes of the people of England with the powder in the shape of " Love's powder, or horoughmonger's powder." People had begun now to see the effect of it. They were recovering from their blindness. The House had been lustily told that all people approved of the measure Why so they did approve of it—they approved of it so far as it went, but many, and particularly those in Lancashire, did not approve of it in consequence of its not going far enough. lie (Mr. H.) for his own part, approved of the knocking off system— he approved of the measure, and he should give it his support. At the same time he had always c ntended for the right of the whole people, and this was certainly not a measure calculated to give to the whole the right of voting. He had stated on a former occasion what he relocated now, that when the Bill was in the Committee he should move that those who were to be exempted from the right of voting should be excused from paying taxes and serving in the mi litia. He had stated this too to the persons at the meetings that be had attended, and asked them if they expected any thing from the measure? They then stated that they expected nothing whatever. The Hon. Member for Middlesex had stated that at the dinners he (Mr. H.) had attended, certain toasts had been drunk. Now that Hen. Member must have been entirely mistaken, because he had dined with no one ! lie knew what the Hon. Member meant ; it was this, that lie (Mr. IL) had been invited to an evening party—(Laughter)— at which there was nothing to eat.—(Repeated laughter.) —At that meeting the health of his Majesty's Ministers certainly was drank. Here, continued the lion. Member, is a petition signed by 4,000 cut of the 7,000 electors of Preston in three days, and this confirms every part of my statement. He then stated he had letters from all parts of the country, as well as the lion. Member for Stafford shire, and all these letters denounced the measure. Of these he would read ene, which came from Paisley, not withstanding the assertion of the Hon. Member fer Kirk cudbright, that all Scotland was in favour of the Bill. This letter came from the Chairman of a Reform meeting held in Paisley, and stated the feeling of the country might be appreciated from the fact of the proportion be tween the number of qualified and unqualified house holders. Throughout Scotland the proportion of the qua lified to the unqualified was as 1 to 104 or 11; in Edin burgh it was as 1 to 3 ; in Glasgow as 1 to 44 ; in Aber deen as 1 to 7 ; in Paisley as 1 to 14 ; in Dundee as 1 to 6; and in Leith as Ito 44. Was this, he asked, the free and equal representation which they were told the people was to have? For the Hon. Member for Middle sex he entertained a very great respect; but he did not consider him half so useful as he was formerly, since he bad become a Ministerial Member.—(Hear, and laughter.) • —lle was now content with recording his objection to a vote, whereas, formerly, he would have insisted upon a division.—(Hear, and laughter.)—ln fact he was much better as an Opposition than as a Ministerial Member.— (Hear, and laughter.)—Still, however, he thought the Ministry had gained a great deal in having so industrious, and laborious, and honest a supporter.—(Hear, and laugh ter.)—There was a speech of his to which allusion had been made—he meant that which had given so much dis pleasure at one side of the House, and given such satisfac tion at another—that he understood the Hon. Members on his side had had it printed.—(Cheers from the Treasury benches.) This speech, too, had been received with great disapprobation by the Press. He had got a great trounc ing from the Press.—(Hear, and laughter.)—And what he would call the politicians of London were very much displeased with him. It was, he was well informed, up to the last fortnight, the custom at all the public-houses, smoking-rooms, and other places of nigh'ly meeting, fre quently to drink his health ; but since he made that speech, in every instance, and in every house, a vote of cen sure had been passed against him. But though these votes had been recorded against him, and although the Press had attacked him, should he, as the representative of a free people, be afraid to express his conscientious opi nion?—No.—(Cheers.)—As for the Press, he asserted there bad been a conspiracy of the Papers in favour of the Bill. lie hoped the lion. Members and the Press would understand him. He said there was a conspiracy—not of the Papers with the Ministry—hut of the Papers amongst themselves. Such was the popularity of the measure among the buyers of newspapers. that they would not have sold their papers if they had not advocated it.— (Cheers from the Treasury benches.)—Now he received cheers from the other side of the House.—(Hear, and laughter.)—lt was said that he had sold himself—and this not to him who was i❑ favour and place. He should be glad to know to whom it was said he did sell himself! And he could tell the House and all the Hon. Members of it, there was but one price by which he could be bought—! here was that one, and but that one way of gaining him—it was by giving representation to the whole people. He hoped more time would have been al lowed for the presentation of petitions ; and as he could not present it, he begged leave to read a short extract from one in his possession.—(Oh, oh.) There was in this pe tition authority which would bear him out.—(Oh, oh.) He wished the House and the Press to understand that when he spoke of the people he spoke of the whole people, and not of those merely whe were to be represented ; and he had no hesitation in declaring it to he his honest and decided opinion, that the unrepresented portion of the com munity were dissatisfied, and would be still more so when they had time for reflection. He would read au extract from the Leeds Patriot, which afforded an honourable exception to the conduct of the Press in general towards him.—(oh; question, question.) The Hon. Member then reverted to Preston, and said he was bound to admit that another petition had been got up in Preston, and was in the hands of his colleague; but the meeting from which it emanated was held in a room that could not hold more than 600 persons, and not one-fifth of the electors were present. He added, that the chairman refused to put a motion adverse to the Bill. He then read the extract from the Leeds Patriot, which stated that the Hon. Member for Preston had done honour to himself and his consti tuents—(Hear, and great laughter)—by expr ess i ng t h e genuine opinion of the working classes, now that they had had time to consider that the Bill was decidedly not popu lar amongst the producers of the country's wealth, and that it was evident the Press had combined to misrepresent or suppress the opinion of the Hon. Member for Preston, in the same manner formerly complained of upon the part of Mr. O'Connell.—(Laughter.) He (Mr. Hunt) did not complain of the Press. Every thing could not be printed, and he had his fair share. But it was not the first time he had the whole Press against him, even with out one bare exception, because he advocated the same principles which he did then. In conclusion, he repeated his assertions respecting the unpopularity of the Bill with the working-classes, adding at the same time he had no doubt it would be carried. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN stated, that he had been entrusted with a petition from the Spitalfields weavers in favour of that Bill, and that he had received a deputation from them, by which he was informed that they had held such an opinion of Mr. Hunt, that it was their intention to have confided the petition to his charge, but that his speech upon the Reform question, delivered some time since, had filled them with indignation. The petitioners, he remarked, were all operatives, and not entitled to enjoy the franchise under the Bill. As to the Hon. Member for Preston himself, he considered him the best friend to Re form, with no good intention however on his own part, but from his misrepresentations of that House and of his Majesty's Ministers, the fact was, the Hon. Member had opened the eyes of the people. Lord STANLEY said, he rose to remark that the lion. 'Member for Preston bad returned no answer to the ques tion put by the Hon. Member for Staffordshire. He had himself asked the question in private to-day, whether Mr. Hunt had at Manchester used the language attributed to him respecting the Wigan election, and he was Vold that Mr. Hunt had not used exactly the words printed in the papers, but he had something very like it. The words attributed to the Hon. Member about the Wigan election were as follows:—'" The first day of the Wigan election let every man in Manchester, between the ages of 15 and 45, march over to Wigan, to accompany Mr. Potter, to the number of 20,000 or 30,000 men, and he would hem go a al influencend exercise ov e e x rth is what he eelectoraof called a Wigan. c,„nif you meet a voter (said Mr. Hunt), say to some ten or twelve of you, take care of him, and see if you can't persuade him to vote for Potter. Use kind entreaties ; and if these fail, I would advise them to take him by the arm, aiid give him a gentle squeeze, and let one take hold of his other arm (and I know you Lancashire men give some thing like a feeling squeeze when you and if he still refuses, I would not say I would pull his arms off, but 1 would very near do it. That is what you are call e d up on to do, and my opinion is that if you don't do it, you will never get this . Reform or any other.'"--He asked if thi s o r anything like it was fit language to be used by a Member that House? Again, about the expected election at Manchester, the Hon. Member bud been reported to say—. He had been asked, supposing the Reform Bill should pass, who were the people of Manchester going to send ? [A voice from the crowd : Hugh Birley, accompanied by groans and cries of ‘No,no.l He had been told of hiin. before; but on his expressing a desire to know who he was, ' don't you know,' said some one, that's Captain. Birley, who came up to the hustings in August, 1819.' What !' exclaimed Mr. Hunt,' will the people of Man chewer send a master butcher of Peterloo to represent them in Parliament ?'—(No, never.) Those who were Dot ten-pounders would, he thought, take care of that. If they caul(' be guilty of such an atrocity, he would retire from public life, and never enter Lancashire again ; and he would tell them that, were he a Manchester man, rather than submit to it, he would lay half Man• chester in ruins. Instead of having fourteen lives lost,. he would have half the blood in Manchester spilt before be would sulimit to such a degradation."—(Cries of " Oh, oh !") He had asked the Hon. Member if he had used this language, and he replied that, generally speaking, it was much exaggerated; be, in answer to a particular question, respecting the portion of his speech which referred to Manchester, he acknowledged that he had said something very like it. He (Lord Stanley) de clared that if the Hon. Member had said anything like it, he had disgraced himself and his country.—(Hear, hear.) He begged pardon for wasting the time of the House with reference to a speech delivered out of doors, but he felt it his ditty to do so. He then proceeded to allude to the Turnpike Bill, upon the conduct of which Mr. Hunt had commented in his speech. and affirmed, that, upon a small foundation of truth, the lion. Member had raised a strange structure, which he could not attribute either to mistake or misrepresentation. He farther stated that he was in formed, that when a person asked in the crowd where was Wood, Mr. Hunt, shrugging his shoulders, replied, " Ay, indeed, where was Wood when he ought to be attending to your interests," when the Hon. Member well knew that Mr. Wood had attended on the Committee. After a few words from Mr. PEARSE, which is ere not audible in the gallery-- Mr. HUNT stated, that he bad told the Noble Lord the express:ow in the paper from which he had quoted were much exaggerated, but that he might see something very like what he should say in the Manchester Times. He had omitted to answer the Hon. Member for Stafford shire's question. He had now to say that the statement in the Clergyman's letter was a gross exaggeration. He did astc e people if they would not go in great bodies and exercise a constitutional influeoc --(Loud laughter)—by endeavouring to prevail on the electors to vote for the friend of the people, anti he had spoken of a genCe squeeze—. (Continued laughter)—but all that about the tourniquet and taking off their arms, was gross exaggeration. He denied that he had ever spoken of Me. Wood except in terms of the utmost respect. Mr. LITTLETON affirmed that he was authorised by the gentleman who wrote to him to state, that a number of respectable tradesmen were willing to verify the state ment on oath.—The petition was then laid on the table. Mr. SPEAKER then called on Lord John Russell— his Lordship rose ; but Mr. W. DUNCOMBE presented himself, and claimed the attention of the House, stating that he had four peti tions, which he had been particularly requested to present before the Bill proceeded further. Mr. SPEAKER said, that the time for presenting petitions being passed by, unless the Hon. Member was quite sure the c9urse he was pursuing was perfectly con sonant widt the feeling of the House, he was not in a sita tion to make a motion. After some moment•, during which there were laud cries of " Chair, chair :" the Hon. Member at length gave way. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that at that time of the ex', ning he felt it impossible, if he consulted his duty, to accede to the request of the Hon. Member.— (Hear, hear.) If, indeed, that Hon. Member alone had been desirous of presenting petitions he should certainly. yield to the Hon. Member's wishes ; but he felt that if at that moment he gave way, and consented to the further presentation and discussion of petitions, considerable time would be employed, which had better be devoted to the discussion of the measure itself.—(Hear, hear, hear.) REFORM MEASURE. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—Sir, I feel, and there can be no doubt of the fact, that however cau tious the House may be to go into a Committee upon the Bill for amending the representation of the people in Parliament, as I had already stated that there are certain alterations proposed by his Majesty's Mini sters before it ought to he discussed in Committee, and as my announcement in that respect has led to observa tions svhiol , I feel cannot pass entirely without answer, I feel it incumbent to enter into these explanations which I trust will satisfy the House, both that the Government in their original principle acted fairly and impartially, and that in proposing the alterations which it is their inten tion to introduce, they are not abandoning but carrying into effect the principle on which the Bill is founded.— (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")—But, Sir, before I en ter upon this matter, I cannot help contrasting the situation in which I stand now, with that in which I stood when I brought forward the measure upon the Ist of March. Whatever anxiety I miy feel now, it is an anxiety mixed with feelings of pride and satisfaction that the measure which the Ministers of the King thought it their duty to propose, as one which they consider calculated the best fir the promotion of the future welfare of England, has been stamped and sealed by the approbation of that people for whose benefit and advantage it is solely intended.—(Loud cheers.)— This very night Sir, since I have been in the House, I have heard the Hon. Member for Preston, who is no very partial friend of this Bill, allege that it is im possible for the Press of England not to stand forward as the fearless advocate of the measure, for if they were not to take such part, it would be impos sible for them to find readers. Sir, another sign, and a gratifying one, of:the opinions of the people, is the number of addresses and petitions which have been sent up from all parts of this united empire, both to the Throne and to this House. I have looked a 'good deal into these petitions, but as I may have overlooked some, I will not venture to state the numbers presented on one side or on the other. But one thing strikes me as true, and can, I imagine, be proved most satisfactorily, on examination, namely, that from the Corporations whose rights it was said we were about to rob—that from the boroughs we were about to spoliate, the petitions in favour of this measure have been more numeroas than the peti tions on the other side. I will not mention all the petitions. I may mention, however, the petitions of corporations, a noble catalogue—at the head of which Intends the Corporation of London—then of Canterbury__ then that of Portsmouth—of Gloucester—of Lincoln_. of Derby, and of Bedford. Sir, there is one gratifying sign that they feel that, however the privileges which they enjoy are held by law, and cannot he taken from them ex cept by Act of Parliament, yet that they would not be acting with that degree of consideration for the in terests of their country, which became them, if they were not to profess their readiness to give their willing assent to a measure which, if it did deprive them of power, tended to give their fellow-citizens privileges, which ought long ago to have been dif fused more generally, instead of being confined to those very select and small bodies. But with regard to the feeling, and approbation, and sentiments of the people of England,, I have another test, which I borrow from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, who, as he is in the habit of frequently quoting past speeches, cannot surely find fault with me, if, on this occasion, I adopt the same course.—(Hear, hear.) In bringing forward the Roman Catholic question, and in defending himself against the charge that had been made against that Right Honourable Member, because, he had not kept up hie resistance to the Catholic claims with sufficient pertinacity, he declared that he had asked a friend of his to look into the votes of past years, with respect to the opinions of their constituents upon the Catholic question. He said he had taken fifteen counties and twenty towns, in fact he had taken seventeen counties and twenty-two towns, but that difference alters not the principle upon which he proceeded, as a test of the opinions .of the people of England. In his speech, which had been published under his sanction and approbation, he had said that in considering these votes so given, be was furnished with a practical and constitu tional method of determining the sense of the people. Now, Sir, I am going to adopt that same practical and constitutional method to ascertain legitimately the sense of the people in reference to thi s measure . I will go over the :ery counties and pla ces w hi c h h e me ntioned in the Catholic qu e sti on , an d I w ill r efer to the votes which they gave in r e f erenco t o that measure. Of the repres en t a ti ves o f 17 l arge coun ti es 27 had voted tor, and d e on N ly o n rf i , n ,l, e k ag s a t i a n ff s o t r t d h; E ß sse ill x .- : i ( i C ta h n ee p. r h s i . r ) This list e, Lincoln of counti e s i nc l u d e d Y or kshire, Devonshire, Kent, Surrey, Somerset, shire, Gloucester hire, IVoreestershire, and Warwickshire. —(Hear.) In the list of the Members for the large towns he had the same reason to be satisfied with the result. H e took 22 large towns, one of which (Colchester) had only one Member in the House at the time the votes were taken, rad out of that list containing 45 Members, be found that 39 bad voted for the Measure, and only six against it. I kno had tee s ham been In a the that wh< (wh othe COTT hart Fl., Alen born, Wog ',lac be was frog borc was foul Whi two to a stab