The Sun. — London, England, 1831-04-15 00:00:00

inclined to pay much attention to county petitions unless they were numerously signed, hut if the weight and im portance of those who attended a meeting gave any con sequence trig petition, he should claim the utmost deference to that which he would now pi c-ent. He could take upon Itimself to say, that there were few persons at the Mee ti ng in question that were not the representatives of !landed property. A difference of opinion had prevailed at the meeting, but it had subsided, and the result was the voting of a petition, praying that the Reform 13111 now before the House of Commons should not pass into a law. The petition stated that the petitioners, though against the Reform Bill, were not averse to such a 'Reform as would be consistent with the established Con stitution of the country. This, he must confess, was a new feature in petitions from that part of the United King dom (Scotland), and the question of Reform was t:o longer one of principle, hut a question of degree. What degree of Reform petitioners might want it was not for him to say, and perhaps the petitioners might not go lo fir as he was inclined to go; for he thought it essential for the safety of the institutions of the country that the measure of Reform should go far enough to conciliate the opinions of the great bulk of the intellect and respectability of the country. The petitioners prayed that the right of voting should be continued to all places at present possessed of it. and in this prayer he cordially agreed. The principle of disfranchisement was dangerous in itself, and fraught with the oust evil consequences, and the qualification of ten pounds was not founded in any established principle what ever. The petitioners next speak of the manner in which the Reform Bill would affect the interests of their own county. They did not Oject to the granting of reprc eentatives to 'large manufacturing towns, nor to the ge neral regulation of elections ; but they protested against dividing the representation of counties, and thus de- priving them of the privileges they derived by the treaty of the Union. If this alluded to what was proposed with respect to the counties of Selkirk and Peebles, he had no hesitation in sayinz th.t in this particular the Bill ought to be altered.. ia his opinion the time was come that the principle of popular elections must be introduced into Scotland. The petiT ioners sta.ed that the proposed plan of Reform would have the effect of subvert- ing the due influence of property, and of conveying the privilege of returning Members to persona of small pos- sessions. If the Bill were to remain in its present state, he should certainly concur in the views of the petitioners. It was established by the returns before the Hose, that the people inhabiting towns would have the preponderance in returning Members who ought to he re.turned by the landed interest. The ink afnted houses in Scotland amounted to 351,000 tdd liundreds. The inhabited house-tax upon such of these as were rated at above 10/. a year, amounted to 35,700/. Of this, 25,0361. was levied upon houses rated at between 101. and 20/. a year. The whole constituency of Scotland was calculated by the Noble Loud who had introduced the till at about 60,000, and by the inhabited house tax it would appear that more than ono-half of this constituency would con- silit of householders, and of these 25,000 would consist of very small householder.. He did not know that the in- hal;ited house-tax was any crittrion, for taxation by the present 'dill was not referred to. It was enacted, that the sheriffs of counties were to decide the value of the houses, and if the owners thought themselves aggrieved, the appeal lay from the sheriff alone to the sheriff and a jury ; and lastly, the appeal might be carried even to the House of Loris. The people of Scotland, therefore, dreaded the introduction of such a system of endless litigation, with all its consequences of fraud and perjury. He did not know upon what prin ciple at present the bouse-tax was laid, fir to his knowledge a great many houses worth more than 10/. year escaped taxation. By the clsuse in the present Bill a house and land might be valued together, so that small houses rated at only 5/. a-year, if they had a little land at tached to them, would be valued at 101, and acquire the right of voting. The country would be overwhelmed by voters of this petty description. He was certain that very mistaken notions prevailed amongst people in England en this point, owing to the different manner in which build iogs were managed in Scotland from the mode in which they were managed in this country. The Bill provided that building leases should not give a right to vote unless where they were for 501. a-year, but in Scotland, where buildings were leased out in perpetuity, the Bill would confer the right of voting. Ile was sure that it would be extremely difficult to strike out a proper mode for esta blishing a constituency in populous towns in Scotland ; but in towns where there was a large population his Ma jesty's Ministers, by carefully attending to all the sugges tions which might be made to them from competently in formed quarters, and by proceeding with due caution and deliberation, might be able to furnish a good system of popular election in Scotland, which would he understood there, which would lead to no chicanery, and which would be quite satisfactory. With regard to the whole measure of Reform, he trusted that when it came to be discussed, it would be recollected, both in that House and in the other House of Parliament, that while that measure intro deiced a great and important change into the existing state of the representation even in England, the change which it went to introduce into Scotland would he a complete and entire novelty there, where, during the last 300 or 400 years, except in some of the borough towns, nothing like a popular e'ection had been known. In making that statement, he only stated an undoubted fact, and it was one which ren ds red n,cessary the application of great caution and de liberation to the consideration of a measure which was in tended to introduce a popular system of election into that country. There was no country in the world where all the relations and dependencies of social life were in a happier state than they were and had b.en in Scotland for many years, and he hoped sincerely and anxiously that nothing. could come from Parliament which would tend to impair or endanger such a state of things.—( Hear.) He would not take upon himself to say that any thing which Parliament would do upon this subject would have such an effect ; but, nevertheless, it was impossible to con template the great change which it was proposed to intro duce into Scotland, without anxiety as to its result ; and he should be grieved indeed, if that result should he to disorganize the social relation. , at present existing in that country, for at such a rate political franchises would cer tainly lie dearly purchased. He should not, on this occa sion, go further into the general question, but would con clude by stating that the prayer of the petition was, that the Bill now before Parliament should not pass into a law. The Earl of EOSEBERY s:irl, that as one of the largest landed proprietors in the county of Dlintiorgh, he felt called upon to make a few remarks on this occasion, both upon the petition which had been presented, and the statement which had been made by his Noble Friend who had just sat down. Ile was ready at once to admit that several of the names attached to the petition were those of gentlemen of rank, of ancient family, and con siderable property, in the county of Edinburgh. He would also say that many others of the petitioners were known to him either personally or by reputa tion—that they were valued for their character and worth, and that in fact all those who had signed this petition were men of respectability, whose opinions were undoubtedly worthy of attention. But there were two points connected with this and all other county petitions which had been, or which would be, presented front Scot land on the subject of Reform, which should never be for gotten when the value and importance of such petitions were to be duly and fairly estimated. The first point was, that county meetings in Scotland in no respect or degree whatever resestahled county meetings in England. The county meetings in Scotland were not constituted, as in this country, of every description of persons of property and intelligence in the county. The county meetings in t.eotland comprised a particular class of persons, many of whom had no property in the county in which the meet ing took pl ace . The second point to which he wished to direct the attention of their Lordships, as connected with those county petitions from Scotland, was, that the great En3wity of the individuals who attended those meetings were_ personally and dir e ctly interested in the opposing the change which it was proposed to make in the repre sentation of that county. lie was not prepared to go into an analysis of till, petition on this occasion, to demonstrate that it completely came b onder the class of petitions which he had just described names of looking f at the petition, he saw appended to it the of o several persons who had no property in the county taro fact also, that Several t h; and he was sure of were debarred who were possessed of pperty in that count Y. was s arred from attending the adopted, met. meeting at which this petition number in Scotland, i a a C n o l a )e n r t because,. owing to the peculiar constitution of county meetings they would have no voice there. of persons who had signed the petition was 62, popu lation of which, after deducting the population the ion both of the city of Edinburgh and the town of Leith, amounted to 33,000. He be gg ed further to remark, that it appeared from a return which bad been laid upon their Lordships' table, that in the county of Edinburgh there were 461 proprietors rated at la and upwards. Now he would con tend, that until a meetin g of the county of Edinburgh should be beld, , at which those 464 persons could attend and have a voice, their Lordships would not be able to • rtain the real feelings ef that county w . ith regard t . o_ ascertain the of Reform ; and. he . was..conyince . d, that it such a meetinr , should he called, the petition whichrotili s t be adopted at it would be of a very different character front that which had emanated from those sixty-two intim Aoki.. The obaarvationa which he bad ;ludo va tklll r it tition applied also to the other petitions which were in i progress from the other counties in Scotland. He had made out a list of the number of persons who had attended four or five county meetings in Scotland at which peti tions had been adopted, and the English Peers in that House would be somewhat disappointed when they found what was the character of such county meetings. In the county of Perth—the largest in Scotland—a very opulent county, with a population amounting to 140,000, and containing, according to a return on their table, between 700 and 800 persons rated for a property of 101. and upwards, the number that voted at a county meeting, convened to consider the question of Reform, consisted of a majority of 58 against it, and a minority of 36 in favour of it, and that was what was called a large county meeting in Scotland. In the county of Banff, which con tained a considerable population and a great number of landowners, the amount of persons that attended a county meeting at which a petition had been adopted in favour of the measure, consisted of thirteen who voted for the pe tition, and four who voted against it. In the county of Moray eight persons attended the county meeting, five of whom voted against Reform, and three in favour of it. In Selkirk, which was undoubtedly a small county, six persons attended the county meeting, three of whom voted for, and three against the measure of Reform. In the county of H iddington, which was an opulent and wealthy county, the meeting was composed of twenty per sons ; no petition was adopted at that county meeting, but several speeches were made, and a variety of resolutions were passed, and twelve of the persons present voted against the measure, and eight in favour of it. These de tails would show to their Lordships what was the real na ture of Scotch county meetings—how they were consti tuted as regarded those who could attend and vote at them ; and having laid these details before their Lord ships, he would heave them to judge whether petitions from such meetings could he considered as justly expressing the opinions of the landed proprietors of Scotland on this snb ject. For his part he would say, that neither the petition from the county of Edinburgh, nor the petitions from the other counties in Scotland, at all in his mind afforded an evidence, either as regarded property or as regarded popu lation, of the feeling which existed in Scotland upon the subject of Reform. Ile hoped that under this qualifica tion and reservation all those county petitions from Scot land on the subject of Reform would be for the future re ceived in that House. He should not go further into a discussion of the general principle of the measure on this occa-ion than to state, that all who entertained the opi i ion that Reform was necessary in the southern parts of the kingdom, must he of opinion, notwithstanding the extreme novelty to which his Noble Friend hadalluded, as applicable to such a measure, that Reform was doubly necessary in Scotland. In a country like Scotland, where every part of the representative system required amendment, he was ready to admit that the question ought to he entertained with caution and wisdom, but, he would also add, with sincerity, efficiency, and in good earnest. If the present opportunity for amending that system should be allowed to pass by, it might happen that no opportunity would here after present itself for effecting it. By introducing such a Reform into Scotland, they would at once elevate the character of the people of Scotland, and the character of their representatives, rendering them more worthy of their confidence, and better calculated to discharge the important duties which devolved upon them as Members of Parlia zusnt. By introducing such a Reform there, they would demonstrate that there could not he a greater fallacy than that which had been advanced by many persons, and which he had often heard propounded with no lack of boldness, but with an entire lack of argument,—namely, that the extraordinary prosperity of Scotland was attributable ‘to the state of its representation. He was of opinion that many persona who made that statement did not themselves believe it, and that those who did believe it had mistaken the means by which a great and beneficial evil had been achieved. He should reserve what he had further to say until the time for discussing the Bill regarding Scotland should arrive, when he hoped to be able to point out some improvements, the introduction of which into the Bill would render it more perfect and efficient, and more analogous to the particular institutions of that country which it was intended to ameliorate. In conclusion, he begged to disclaim any went of courtesy or respect towards those petitioners, for to both his courtesy and his respect he felt that they were fully entitled : at the same time that he had felt it his duty to exercise that freedom which, as a Member of that House, he possessed, in exa mining the distinct merits of this petition, and in pointing • out to their Lordships the real weight which ought to be attached to it. The Duke of BUCCLEUGH did not deny the statement of the Noble Earl who had just sat down, that this petition had emanated from but a sm ill number of persons in the county of Edinburgh, but the majority of them were per sons who had large properties there. He had no doubt that if they held out to the 464 persons to whom the Noble Earl had alluded the option of having a vote or not, that they would be for a measure which would give them the right of voting. It was a fret that the most mistaken nations were abroad in Scotland regarding this Bill, and he believed that the far greater portion of the lower classes in that country were not aware of its real nature, or of what it would give them, and that they were totally mistaken as to the advantages which they expected to derive from it. —(Hear, heart) He could inform their Lordships that the prevailing impression amongst those classes in Scot land was, that this Bill would give them a right to vote in the counties ; that after it passed, there would be no more excisemen,—no more gaugers ; that they should have a free trade ; that whiskey would be cheap, &c. He was aware of the fact that such an impression had been created amongst the lower classes of the people in Scotland, by persona who were going about the country there, exciting the most absurd expectations amongst the people, and in dustriously promoting an agitation, the fruits of which were witnessed in the riots that had lately occurred in Edin burgh. He could not understand why Selkirk should he disfranchised, or why it should be joined to Peebles-shire. But he should defer stating his reasons for objectit.g to the Bill altogeth,T, until it had come regularly before them. The Earl of HADDINGTON presented a similar peti tion from certain persona who had not been able to attend the meeting at which the petition he had previously pre sented had been adopted. In doing so he begged to say that lie did not deny that those petitions came from a small numt , er of persons, but he only claimed for them that weight and attention to which their respectability entitled them. Ile only asked that respect for their petition which would be given to the petition of the gentry of Hampshire, or any other English county. The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition from the noblemen, freeholders, justices of the peace, and to mnissioners of supply of the county of Dumbarton, complaining of the extensive and sweeping Reform which was contemplated by the Reform Bill as regarded Scotland. He observed that there was no part of the country which, during the last 50 )ears, had been inure progressively and uniformly prosperous than Scotland ; that was a fact which could not be disputed, and he here remembered, with particular satisfaction, a remark which had been made once by a Noble Friend of his, whose loss at present he every day saw more reason to deplore,—he meant the late Earl of Liverpool,—that Scotland was in every respect the best conditioned country in the world ; yet this was the country into which his Majesty's Ministers proposed to introduce what the petitioners called " a sweeping Re form." He begged to say that whatever might be the difference between the county meetings in Scotland and the county meetings held in England and elsew here, it was the duty of his Majesty's Ministers, particularly when they were about to propose a change which went to alter that which had been settled by the Act of Union, and by a solemn treaty between the two countries, to have con sulted the opinions and wishes of the great landed pro prietors in Scotland before they brought forward a mea sure of that description. He begged to move, " That this important petition be printed." Lord KING remarked, that seeing the importance which the Noble Duke was anxious to attach to this peti tion, be supposed that the Noble Duke thought that the county meeting at which it had been adopted was at least no farce. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he rose to present a petition on the subject of Ref,rni, to which, not withstanding the number of petitions which had been pre sented on that question, be felt it his duty to call the at tention of their Lordship, not only on account of the number of signatures appended to it, but on account of the great respectability of the parties from whom the peti tion emanated. It was adopted at a public meeting con vened in the city of Lontion,and held in the Egyptian-hall, consisting of the merchants, bankers, and other traders of the metropolis ; and when he stated that eight or nine tenths of those persons who came fairly under that descrip• tion had signed this petition—that in point of fact it had been signed by almost all the respectable merchants, and that altogether it bad attached to it the names of about n 9,000 per sons , filling the rank of traders in Lon don, he was sure that their .Lordships would see that it was highly deserving of their attention. He was not de sirous on this occasion to revive in that House the irre gular, though certainly' not useless discussion, upon the general sulte e t t o ci f the the l e a t e recess measure, which had taken •,,, to _the could not avoid there prey; wecbuolitanr thisalue o calling the attention of the Hous • the opinions of that class of persons fro e m p titian emanated. Having been one of those who Ilalaed lyvi their wait to dab! Latioure, of deform, solely on the ground that they thought it calculated to strengthen ' and render permanent the invaluable establishments under which we had the happiness to live, he was glad to find interested not opinions of persons who were most deep l y not only in the permanency of our establishm ents, but in the continuance of the peace and tranquillity of the country, thus expressed in favour of the measure of Re form which had been brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers. He was rejoiced to find persons whose most va luable interests were closely interwoven with the existence of those institutions, and with the peace of the country, thus coming forward, after having maturely considered the .de tails of the Reform Bill, and expressing the ir conviction that the adoption of such a Reform by Parliament would tend most effectually to preserve the institutions, and the peace, and quiet of the country, upon the pr eservation of which their interests so vitally depended. Th e proprie tors of land were interested in the preservation of that tranquillity, but not so much as those who were engaged in trade and commerce. Should a storm arise, whenever it passed away real property would regain its value ; but it was totally a different case with those whose wealth consisted in the circulating capital of the country. Even a temporary interruption of the tranquillity of that country might extinguish all their hopes and destroy a ll their pre perty. Ile therefore regarded this petition, co ming as it did from such an important class ofpersons , as affording a strong argument in favour of the Reform which hid been proposed by his Majesty's Government. The Noble Mar quis concluded by presenting the petition, which was or dered to be printed. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was anxious to obtain some information from the Noble Earl at the head of the Government, explanatory of his declaration on a fOrnier occasion, so far as that declaration was contra vened by a more recent statement on the part of Ministers elsewhere. It might be remembered that the Noble Earl had pledged himself to stand or fall by the Reform Bill now on the table of the other House of Parliament — (Hear)—and not to abate a jot of its provisions.—(Hear.) —Since that declaration, however, Ministers had reason to depart from their measure in several important parti culars—of which it would he sufficient fur the present to cite their having renounced their purpose to reduce the numbers of the Commons, as they had intended.—(Hear.) —The Noble Marquis was proceeding to read extracts from Lord John Russell's speech, in order to show that that Noble Lord had laid great stress on the necessity of a reduction of the number of the Members of the other House, when— The girls of Maratzsauitv and BOSSLYN rose to order. It was irregular, they said, and contrary to the usages of Parliament, to make the alleged reports of what might have occurred elsewhere, the subject of discussion in that House.—(Hear.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would not persist in discussing the speech of the Noble mover of the Reform Bill, though he could not see any impropriety or inconve nience in his doing so ; and should therefore confine him self to a simple question—namely, whether Ministers meant to reduce the number of the House of Commons from 658 to 596 as they had originally proposed, or not ? How they meant, in case nut, to fill up the deficiency which their disfranchising clause, schedules A and B, would occasion ? Whether, in fact, they meant to retain these disfranchisements like so many old bad notes, to be issued at convenience ?—(Hear, and a laugh.) Earl GREY concurred entirely with the Noble Earls opposite, who had risen to order, as to the inconvenience and irregularity of discussions founded en newspaper re ports, however accurate, and on the merits of a measure which bad not yet come before them substantially. Ile, however, would answer the Noble Marquis briefly, but, lie trusted, satisfactorily. The Noble Marquis had reminded their Lordships of his (Earl Grey's) pledge delivered on a form r occasion, to the effect that he would not consent to compromise the principle of the Reform measure, but would stand or fall by it as originally designed.—(Near. )—The Noble Marquis had stated correctly his declaration.—(Hear.)—He had said that he would stand or fall by the principle of the Bill now in progress in the other House of Parliament; and for the satisfaction of the Noble Marquis would then re peat his declaration, that he would not consent for himself or his colleagues to abandon a single principle of that Bill, but would stand or fall by it as it succeeded or otherwise. —(Cheers.)—When he had, however, expressed his de termination to thus stand or fall by the Reform Bill, he had also explicitly stated that it was the principle of that Bill which he would not for a moment consent to com promise—for he was not presumptuous enough to imagine that there might not be defects of detail susceptible of im provement.—(Hear, hear.)—The principle which Mini sters had in view in bringing forward the measure, was to effect such improvements in the representation of the people as the well-being of the country required,—in fact, to adapt the representation to the institutions, to the wants, property, and intelligence of the country; and he would nut consent to any alteration in the provisions—not to say the principle—of that measure, at all likely to interfere with this its great object.—(Hear.) As a means to this end, and not as an end in itself, Ministers proposed to disfranchise certain boroughs incompatible with a pure system of representation, and therefore they would nit assent to any modification of the me ans which might defeat the end they had in view.—(Hear.) — With respect to what the Noble Marquis had observed touching a reduction of the Members of the other House of Parliament, he begged their Lordships to bear in mind, that that reduction formed no essential portion of the measure—that it was a question the merits of which were not involved in the success or merits of the Reform Bill. It was true that he and his colleagues did entertain an opi nion that such a reduction would be advantageous to the public weal, that a fewer number would contribute to the despatch of public business ; but that opinion formed, he repeated, no essential element of their plan of Reform ; and therefore not to insist on its enforcement could not in fairness be construed into a compromise of the principle by which he pledged himself to stand or fall.—(Hear.) This opinion of the inconvenience of the present large number of the House of Commons' members, was not a new one of his. He had often asserted it, more particu larly when the Act:of Legislative Union with Ireland was under the consideration of the other Ilon-e of Parliament. On that occasion he moved, as an amendment to the Bill, that 100 Members be taken off the representation of Eng land, to make room for the 100 new Members which Ire land was to send under its provisions, and the feelings of the majority of the House, and the then Government, were far from being hostile to his proposition, the chief obstacle to the success of which arose from the principle of compensation to certain borough pro prietors in Ireland being recognized by the Govern ment. His opinion, then, as to the advantages of a reduction of the number of the Commons, he repeated formed no essential part of the Reform Bill, and was to be judged of on other grounds. Then as to sonic altera tions which it was proposed to make in the details of the Bill, he wished it to be borne in mind, that they were so far from being opposed to its principle, that they only went to carry it into effect, and were only such improvements as more correct information suggested. Since the plan and objects of the Bill had been first announced to Parliament Ministers had obtained more correct returns of the popu lation of the boroughs and towns which it would affect ; and the result would be a modification, in two or three instances, of the schedules A. and B. ; but, as he had be fore said, no departure from the principle of the measure. —(llean) The Noble Marquis asked whether Ministers meant to propose that the number of the Commons should be k ui an e t p t to up to fi 65 l lu B p , t t li e present hedefic n deficiency ne ti y m l b y e h r ; an i cht i d f i s s o f , how disfranchising clauses would occasion. His answer was, that Ministers would not originate any proposition to make good this de ficiency.—(Hear.) Their individual opinions were, as he had stated, in favour of a reduction of the number ; but if the House of Commons should, contrary to this opi nion, agree that the full complement of 65S Members was expedient, he and his colleagues did not feel that they should therefore abandon the Bill of which this reduction was not an essential feature.—(Hear, hear.) If the de ficiency should be thus filled up, he was not called u pon to say how it might be done so with advantage to time public. All he would say was, that he would not consent to it being Had up from Schedule A., that is, from the boroughs proposed to be disfranchised altogether.--(Hear.) Nor from schedule 8., that is, from those boroughs which the Bill would deprive the power of returning snore than a t ,ett) h ihonfo e let tcg.h,ii colleagues ue a eß(Le t dew l ,e. t ea e r rcan c . ce)i t t d(otT,:ffiaithattte alterations Noble measure—the e a one Member, but only in such a way as would conduce to country uEr Earl itsr— repeated as g ht i e v adr i n et g hoa t ft h r e heell p ra r en o s property representa tion.—(Herr.) ati s determined he iend shouldittos stand de tabiel orp implied nttooh abandon anent n n d c t i oi n m principle s went of that principle. The .. Ear! of CARNARVON had, since he last ad dresse6.their Lordships, minutely examined the Noble it ,n;ltE,o,o2oartirtlyelbia'ds.eirnenßsnt his f n ot,fr il atrft e ; uaii)lt:miel:ytrosetasfpee principlexel principle; rur s iasn a evwc y .ai , agp, t al .e h T. bl t yeHi. ) o : n et flt Noblesramce l r eey ' E e i a e :tur x , h,litsaid lead and t y ld amity what it was, unless, indeed, he could call it the prin ciple of confiscation. The Noble Earl proceeded at 3oine length to argue, that the pow er w hi c h t h e Bill wo uld place in the the Privy Council, as to the districts and towns which should possess th e r i g ht o f re t u rning Members, was one highly unconstitutional, a nd he lefied the Noble Earl to show that it was not so. He should be prepared at a fitting occasion to show that the proposed disfranchisement was not only highly objectionable, but would not effect the object the Noble Lord had in view. Neither would the proposi tion to extend the franchise to those rated at 101. a year, guard them against the evils of corruption, of which it was brought forward as the infallible remedy ; for they had it in evidence—he alluded more particularly to the East Retford case—that the class of persons most obnoxions to bribery was that very class to which the Bill would extend the right of franchise. The Noble Earl dwelt on this point at some length. One of the principles of this Bill rested on the basis of population. Now upon that point he would only observe, that though Ministers had laid down that principle in theory, they had by too means fol lowed it in practice : for if they had, they would have found that the basis of population would have hurried them un ftom one step to another, until every vestige of the Constitution had been destroyed. He looked upon the Bill as the most unprincipled measure that he had ever heard of ; and by the term " unprincipled" be merely meant destitute of any fixed principle. It was a measure which had evidently been got up in a hurry by the present Ministry. Their friends bad made foolish speeches to their constituents out of doors ; and to toake good those extravagant speeches, Ministers had brought in a measure quite as extravagant. He was certain that this Bill was not the production of his Noble Friend at the head of the Government; it bore no mark of his master-hand,—it dis played no trace of his genius, of his talent, or of his experience. lie must have assigned the task of drawing up a new ConstitutiOn for the country to a Committee of superannuated school• boys, just as he had assigned the task of drawing ❑p his budget to some young Statesmen of precocious experience. The Noble Earl then entered into a discussion of the budget, anti 'tonsured the Government for having brought forward a plan of finance for the year which they were obliged to abandon within a week of their first proposing it. Ile trusted that they would have the good sense to abandon in the same way their Reform Bill, which had been brought forward with as little consideration as their budget. That Bill confiscated vested rights by wholesale —(llear, hear)—and sacrificed to mere theory privileges which had long existed in all classes of the community. It was now only the middle of April, and it was not until the Ist of March that the secret of this Bill was commu nicated to the public. lie thought that they ought to have more than six weeks to judge of the merits of a Bill which would do away with the Constitution of Engl and so far as related to the representation of the people i❑ the House of Commons, after it had lasted for as many centuries. They were proceeding not with calm delibe ration, but with breathless haste, to pass a Bill which might place their Lordships in the greatest jeopardy. He contended, that more time ought to be granted for delibe ration ; for the country had been taken by surprise, and had been deluded into a sudden burst of appro bation for this measure by the claptraps which it con tained for all sorts of men. The fact was, that the more men looked into its details the more they disliked it ; and doubts as to its eligibility and its expediency were rising up in the mind of every liberal and thinking man in the country. He wished that his Noble Friend at the head of the Government would consider, before he pro ceeded further with this Bill, who were the allies who supported hint in it. His Noble Friend knew enotigh of the motives of men to be aware of the causes which had induced so many discordant parties to unite in approbation of his Bill. All the violent agitations of the country, all its covert treasons, were arrayed in support of it. They had determined to give his Noble Friend a temporary re spite from the agitation of the ballot, and of the repeal of the Union. But they had let out their reason for so doing —they had avowed their belief that his Noble Friend would unintentionally do more for them in a single session by this Bill of his, than they could ever hope to do for themselves in a long series of years by all their discussions. Yes, the Irish agitators were all his Noble Friend's own ! and he wished his Noble Friend much joy of it. The Bir minghatn Union, toy, was all his own—that Union which had told the highest authorities in the country that they had funds and men to furnish two armies, each equal to that which fought at Waterloo, if it should be necessary to take up arms against the oligarchy. That was a phra-se which of late had become fashionable : but, for his own part, he must say, that he did not know who the persons were who were branded under the title of the oligarchy. Did the Reformers of Birmingham mean by the oligarchy the gentry of the country ? Dial they mean that they would burn a few of their houses ? Did they mean that at their bidding the King himself was likely to be come the greatest rebel in all his dominions ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Then the twopenny trash all supported his Noble Friend ; so that with this great confederate array his Noble Friend had marched against the old institutions of the country, supported by all tile blasphemy anal sedi tion which it contained.—(l- ar, hear, from the Opposi tion benches.) Did his Noble Friend think that because the property of the country was silent, because those who held it, being accustomed to place confidence in the Go vernment, by never having seen their flanks turned by the Government on the one side, and by sedition on the other, had not expressed themselves clamoroudy against this mea sure—did his Noble Friend think that they did not feel the deepest alarm at its uncalled-for magnitude, and its pro bable risk ? They were inclined to give his Noble Friend all credit for honest and pure intention ; but they believed that on this occasion he had been led away by the counsels of others. The magic wand of Comus, anal the enchanted cup of Circe, were very potential ; and he really believed that his Noble Friend must have been struck by the one, or have been intoxicated by the other, before,he changed his nature so far as to give his consent to the innovations which this Bill was calculated to make upon the Con stitution. lie was sway to hear• his Noble Friend op posite—he meant the Noble Marquis—avowing, that within the last three months he had seen grounds for altering all his former opinions.—( Hear, hear, from the Marquis of Lansdowne.) If his Noble Friend had al tered them for good and sufficient reasons, he had done wisely; but if there was any thing that had given him more pain than another in the course of these discussions, it was the belief that his Noble Friend, on whose talents he had beeu accustomed to rely for the salvation of the country, had been induced to drink of the same Circeian cup with his Noble Colleague at the head of the Government. What eflbet had been produced on the public mind by the manner in which his Noble Friend had brought forward this vaunted Reform Bill ? The effect of it hail been this—that all dis creet, and prudent, and thinking men looked upon his Noble Friend as the Neckar of the French revolution. They believed him to he guiding the country, unknowingly, to the brink of a precipice,—they believe I that when his eyes should be opened, and he should look down upon the dreadful airs which was yawning to ingulf it, he would recoil from his own act, and, with a hand too powerless to sive and too virtuous to inunolate hie country, would leave it to some ruthless ruffian arm to hurl it down to irretrievable destruction. That wav the opinion of thousands;ll;vere deeply interested in the commercial welfare and prosperity of the country. They were con vinced that confidence, which was the life and soul of com merce, would be destroyed by the passing of this Bill; that capital would be driven from the country ; that the same species of agitation which had driven manufactures from France in the time of Louis XIV., would drive them from our shores ; and that then, like virtue, when she fled the earth, they would never re-appear in their ancient resting place. If 111inisters had tak e n time t o p rov id e f or t h e sa f ety of the different interests of the country in this Bill, they might have had the benefit of his vote, such as it was, in its favour ; but they had cut that question short ; for in their scramble to disfranchise totally all boroughs with l ow than 2,000, and partially all boroughs with less than 4,000 inhabitants, ar.d in their determination to base the Bill on a principle of population, which they did not always carry into practice, they had lost sight of all those great interests which it was their bounden duty to have protected and preserved. He was himself a friend to mo derate Reform ; and he believed that, in the present state of the country, they must concede to Reform something more than in their own calm and deliberate judgment they might think prudent. But to concede every thing to Re form, as was proposed in this Bill—to advance blindly, perhaps, to salvation, but more probably to inevitable des truction —was that which no sensible man could ever think of doing. He therefore called upon the House and upon the country to pause before they gave their consent to a measure which might plunge the country into a dan gerous abyss, from which no human councils could ever withdraw it. The Noble Earl, after several other obser vations of a similar tendency, concluded by observing that their Lordships might not perhaps pay much attention to his boding voice, hut that would not prevent him from raising it, whenever any measure was proposed to them which he thought likely to inflict injury on the laws and constitution of his country. The Bishop of BRISTOL (we believe) next addressed the House, but iu a tune which was very indistinctly iieard. He stated that though he was not unfriendly to rational ReSrm, he could not give his consent to the mea sure which was at present before the other House of Par liament. Though the petitions in behalf of that 'measure were very numerous, he knew enough of the modes by which such petitions were got up, to induce him to believe that they did not express the sentiments of the majority of the - people. If the Bill had contained any provisions cal culated to check that corruption and bribery at elections which all good men deplored, it it had gone no fatther than shortening the duration of the poll and limiting the expences of election, he might have been inclined to sup- port it ; but, extensive as it now was, he could not look upon it as any thing else than a dangerous innovation upon the Constitution of the country. He objected to the Bill for another reason—it was a dangerous infringement on the rights of property ; and if Parliament once com menced a course of spoliation on one species of property, there was no tolling what species of property would long continue safe. He was of opinion, that even the boasted omnipotence of Parliament was not competent to deprive individuals, without their consent, of a species of pro perty which they had long enjoyed. He thought that individuals should not be called on to forfeit property to which they had an undoubted right. He likewise contended, that this 13i11 was indefensibk inasmuch as it deprived the different corporations of the country of privileges which had long been vested in them. If Birmingham and Manchester were desirous of being represented in Parlisment, let them, with the large funds which were at their disposal, compensate the decayed boroughs which they deprived of the elective franchise. Though no man was more willing than he was to correct any real abuses, he could not help deprecating thismea• sure, which he believed to be pregnant with mischief of every description to all thedifferentinterests of the country. Ile hoped that, if the Bill should come before their Lord ships, the Noble Earl at the head of the Gavernment would modify it as much as possible. In conclusion, he stated that he was fully aware of the responsibility which he incurred by this declaration of his opinion, and that he was anxious to have it understood that, in making it, he was merely expressing his own individual opinions, and not those of the profession to which he belonged. The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, I assure you, most unaffectedly, that I rise with great reluctance to prolong this unusual, and I believe I must say irregular, and lam sure that we all feel, greatly inconvenient die cussion into which my Noble Friend has so unexpectedly dragged the House.—(Cries of " No, no.") Then if I must not say dragged your Lordships, I will borrow one of my Noble Friend's metaphors, which I will endeavour to keep unmixed,—though in the myriad of metaphors which he employed he always mixed them in the most inexplicable confusion,—l will say, that if your Lordships were not dragged, you were seduced and beguiled into this discussion by my Noble Friend most needlessly and unexpectedly ; for my Noble Friend, in presenting this petition, confined himself most closely to that which, according to the strictest rules of your Lordships' House, is most in order ; he did not enter into the whole merits of the whole question, but confined himself to a comment on the quarter from which the prayer of the pe tition proceeded, on the importance of the prayer itself, and on the manner and on the occasion on which the peti tioners had congregated together. These were the topics, and these were the only topics, on which my Noble Friend entered ; but my Noble Friend near me, who cautiously abstained from joining- in the debate when the question was not raised irregularly, or unusually, or incidentally upon a petition, but when it was brought forward expressly, and avowedly for the purpose of forcing a debate on the merits of the Reform Bill,—my Noble Friend, who was silent when we all were prepared for debate, comes down when a petition is to be presented, and we all' ate unprepared, and drags us,—no I will not say drag, for that implies force, but seduces us, for that implies consent—into a discussion, to which he brings a speech of great rhetoric, exuberant fancy, multitudinous metaphor, and long pre meditation, and filled with great, if not always successful, attempts to instruct and amuse us ; but a speech, of which whatever may be its other rare and exalted merit, con ciseness is not that merit which I would venture to predi cate as its distinguishing characteristic. With all deference to my Noble Friend, I must say that he took us all a little by surprise. My Noble Friend commenced his oration by saying that be had only a word or two to say regarding this petition. Then I thought to myself, "Oh, there is nothing here but what is right and regular." But then he said that which, from the long experience I have had of this and the other House of Parliament, gave me strange misgivings—he said, and it is always an ominous introduction to a professedly short statement— " far be it from me upon this occasion to enter into the merits of the general question." As soon as my Noble Friend had uttered those words, my experience led me to expect a long, elaborate, premeditated di-quisition on a'l the merits of the Reform Bill, and on every other topic which by any artifice or rhetoric my Noble Friend could connect with it, not excepting that which was the real cause of his speech,—a general, a virulent, and not a very candid or even amicable attack on the character and per sons of those who at this moment constitute the Cabinet. I should only be running the risk of verifying my own re mark were I to begin the defence of my Noble Colleagu , s and myself by abjuring any intention to enter into it at any great length. I have reason to know that my Noble Friend came down here fortified by good sleep and an ex cellent dinner,—l have not had the same benefit of either bed or board. I have undergone the fatigues of a long day without refreshment, and therefore your Lordships have some plec:ge that I shall not detain you longer than is absolutely necessary. My Noble Friend and the R ght Rev. Prelate who followed him,—and here I will observe that I could wish that my Noble Friend, had imitated the Right lit Prelate, whose speech was distinguished by straightforwardness of purpose and undeviating liberality and candour,—my Noble Friend and the Right Rev. Pre late both state that they are reformers, and that they will not stand up for acknowledged abuses. " Only prove to us," says the Right Itay. Prelate, echoing the words of my Nolde Friend, "only prove to us that these things are abuses, and we will be among the first to lop them off." Is it, then, in the opinion of my Noble Friend, who advertises himself as a reformer in one of the most anti-reform speeches that I ever heard in the whole course of my life, and whose ad .. . _ vertisement contains as correct a❑ account of his reform ing propensities as the advertisements in the daily journals do of the warts advertised by them for sale,—is it in the eye of such a reformer as my Noble Ft iend no abuse that the most populous, the most opulent, the most enter prising, and most intelligent cities in this empire should be wholly unrepresented, whilst the mouldering mounds of Old Sarum, awl the barren walls of :11ilhurst each send two members to Parliament ?" " Oh, but then," says he, " if your plan had been confined to that, Birmingham and Manchester might have been permitted to return members to the House of Commons." Be it no. But then, is it no abase,—mind, I am addressing myself all this time to , . a sincere thorough-going reformer, for such my Noble Feiend professes himself to be,—is it no abuse, I ask, in the eyes of my Noble Friend that the power of giving laws to a great empire, with millions of subjects at home and tens of millions of subjects abroad,—the power of giving laws to this great and intelligent country, and of all but giving laws, as my Noble Friend sail, through this country to all the world besides,—is it no abuse, I say, that the power of making such laws should be vested as property in private individuals ? Is it no abuse in his eyes that the power should be given, not by the choice of the people, but according to the caprice, inclination, or good will of a Peer, or other powerful patron? Is it no abuse in his eyes that this pstaver should be set up to auction in our public marts ;—that it should be sold as notoriously as the beasts in Smithfield ; that it . should be let for a term of years, like a stall or is stable ;—and that i t should be so openly treated as an article of traffic, that when a ques tion arose, as I stated the other night regarding the prompt, the payment of discount was defrayed, not in money, bat in returning a Member—l speak from my own knowledge—to the Parliament now assembled ?" The Noble . Lord then proceeded to ask—had, not the buying and selling of seats been proved to be as common as that of cattle in the market? And was it in the face of acknow ledged abuses such as those—abuses which, in the words of a former Speaker of the House of Commons, would have caused our ancestors to startle—that the friends of rational Reform, who would lop off those abuses, were to be denominated innovators, and to be accused of tearing up the Constitution by the roots? But there was an out cry made in favour of corporations and bodies which had come by usurpation to have a monopoly of the represen tation. In his mind it was no small recommendation of the measure to say that such abuses and anomalies would in future he got rid of by means of it. Nothing could be more degrading to him who sold, and to him who pur chased, than the existing traffic in votes at elections ; its effect was more prejudicial to the morals of the people, and worse for the country generally-, than the evil of nomina tion boroughs. This barter and sale of men's voices and consciences was debasing to him who came into Parlia ment by means of it, and destructive of the character of those by whom he was returned ; and no where was the 'I base traffic more remarkable than in towns where freemen possessed a right of vo,ing, particularly non-resident freemen. It was proposed by the Bill, a s th e h est mode of lopping off abuse., to take the right of election out of hands by which it had been inva riably abused, and to place it in the property of the country. At the same time let the Noble Loi d bear in mind that that the Bill did not disfranchise existing freemen. He had himself witnessed a contested election in a great rotten borough—for he would so denominate Liverpool, and place it at the head of all the rest—and although for many months afterwards the candidates 11,1 d no notion of any corrupt or undue practices, the cost of the election 1 amou nted to upwards of 40 , 0001 . He had been told that three times 40,0001, would not be sufficient to pay the expences of the last election that had disgraced the town of Liverpool—be hoped the last in every sense of the word ; for if this Bill were torn to shivers, another and a local Bill would be necessary to deprive parties of a franchise which they bad abused.—(Hear.) —The Noble Lord complained of the measure having been brought for ward without due deliberation, although three months had been suffered to elapse before it was introduced. But if Ministers had delayed the Bill till another session, he rather suspected there would have been found some friend to Reform like the Noble Lord to complain of the delay. What had been said of the fair sex appeared to be applied in the present instance : We men have many faults : poor women have but two, " There's nothing right they say—there's nothing right they do." So the Noble Lord thought with respect to his Majesty's Ministers—like the ladies they had only two faults in his opinion—they said and did nothing right.—(A laugh.)— But this opinion of the Noble Lord was of recent birth : up to a late period he had expressed no distrust or disap probation of Ministers. Till the introduction of the Re form Bill, the Noble Lard had not expresed any very violent dislike of the existing Government. That Bill .'ppeared to be one of fassination, as regarded the Noble Lord, for it had beguiled bins of his better feeling, and deprived him of his better sense. As an instance of which latter effect, take the Noble Lord's famous sentence beginning with Comus, ending with Circe, and contain ing every thing dreadful and seductive but Scylla and Cintrybdi , . lie couNl not undertake to follow the Noble Lord through all the inconsistencies of his speech. The Noble Lord declared lie would have sup ported the measure if he did not believe it to be pregnant with mischief to the commercial, monied, and toanufActnring interests of the country. Would not the Noble Lord allow the bankers and monied men of Lon don. and the manufacturers of Manchester, Leeds, and Sheffield, to know something of those interests ? Was it to go for nothing that in all those places they called loudly for the Bill? And were Ministers to be treeed with contempt and ridicule because they were not able to see dangers to commerce and manufacture, which the leading interests of those and another place could not dis cover? what he had r , sen tier en this occasion was, with a view to show that the Nohle Lord's arguments (if he might so call them) had made no impression upon the measure, and to vindicate himself from the charge of in consistency. It appeared that in a periodical work with which the Noble Lord seemed more familiar than he, some body had argued in favour of what was called a mixed or piebald system of representation, and the Noble Lord inti mat d his npinio❑ that some member of the present Go vernment was the author of that paper. All he could say was, that so far from having written the article in ques tion, he had never even read it. It was therefore a gross mistake in the Noble Lord to impute the argument to him. (Earl Carnarvon here intimated that he did not mean to do so.) Well, passing that topic, it was a gross misrepre sent rtion of the principle of the measure to say of it, as the Noble Lord did, that it depended wholly on population —putting property altogether out of sight ; he denied that this was the case. The Noble Lord said, " property was the basis of the Constitution, and why not found the Bill upon property ?" But if property was the basis of the Consitution what became of the Noble Lord's darling corporations? There was no right of property there: a man might be a beggar, and yet if he belonged to a cor poration he could transmit to the issue of his loins, born in wedlock, the right of choosing representatives. But the Bill abolished this right after the present possessors, be cause it was a right that existed separately from property. Thus it appeared that, contrary to the statement of the Noble Lord, property was to be the basis of the elec. tiva franchise. Property was the basis throughout, and yet this was what the Noble Lord complained of—first, as a uniform system that excluded property, and, in the next breath, as a suirstitution for the old plan, which gave the right of voting in many instances without reference to property. It was no unwise exclamation, " Save me from my friends :" and, for his own part, he had rather encounter the open, manly, unvirulent opposition of the Nubia Duke (Wellington) than the opposition of the Comas-Circe friends of Reform. With respect to the Bill which he had intended to bring forward on the subject of Reform (to which the Noble Lord had adverted), it went to a greater extent than the present with respect to the extension of the franchise to inhabitant householders, al though it did not go so far with respect to the rotten boroughs. However, the Noble Lord said, he would have been ready to support it. He had concurred in the pre.. sent measure, which embraced a larger view than that which he had intended to introduce, because, being in office, and having the support of Government, he thought it likely to be carried ; and he hod formerly made up his mind to a narrower measure, because he then believed that the utmost he could get was what he intended to have proposed. If there was one individual more reluctant than another to propose measures of wild innovation, of rash experiment, touching the venerable institutions of the country, which had flourished and grown up with the growth of our prosperity, nursing it, and protected by it in turn—if there was one person more incapable of com promising our national interests than another, it was the individual who then addressed their Lordships. But he had not so read the history of the British Constitution as to con found the rust with the pure metal—as to confound the use with theabuse—as to cling to the imperfection,and fancy that in doing so ire was supporting the stability of the structure. Therefore it was, that he had taken the present course. He had not suffered party zeal so to bewilder his imagination in relation to this general question as to cause him to fancy that when he had torn off what clogged the just working of the Constitution, and got rid of the abuse which forced Mr. Pitt to •ay that it was impossible so long as it lasted to have an honest Minister—or if honest, one who could act consistently with his principles—he could not be led to imagine that when he had torn away the evil and left the Constitution to work with its natural vigour, he was playing the part not of a surgeon but of a parricide. To imagine this required a confusion of ideas—a stupid per-' version of facts to which he was not ambitious to lay claim. " He said nothing of the people out of doors: but he begged the Noble Lord to reflect on what he had said in the course of hie speech, when he inquired " who were the Noble Earl's allies?" Did the Noble Lord mean to judge of the principle of the measure by this rule of perverted adage and broken charity ? By this nonsense rather than sense did he wish to pass a condemnation upon the Bill? He had yet to learn that a measure recommended by its prin ciple—a measure which went to restore not destroy—to improve not impair—was to be at once abandoned, because it happened to enjoy this additional quality—recommenda- : tion he did not call it—that it had been honestly and sin cerely greeted with the approbation of a large body of our fellow-subjects. Se much as to the sentiments of the people generally. But if it was said that he was now talking, not of the agitators, but of the people at large, then he said he was also yet to learn, that a meesure good in principle, - and having the additional aceideut of being univer sally a favourite of the people of England, was to be con demned, because it had also the quality of having pecified even that portion of our fellow-subjects, of whom the Noble Lord spoke as if he were disposed to think that it was impossible for any exertion of human power to satisfy them. The measure had worked most favourably upon . public feeling in England ; he hoped it had also produced good effects in many parts of Ireland. Siace it had been made known then, a great change had been effected in the anti-union feeling, which was no longer so prevalent in that country. Still he did net call upon the Legislature to ad , pt:the measure merely because it happened to be con sistent with the popular voice, but he was persuaded that by yielding to the prejudices of the Noble Lord they would bring the security of the country, the King's peace, and the whole frame of society, from Cornwall to Sutherland—• and not only England but Ireland—into a state ofjeopardy, which he prayed heaven that the longest liver might not see. . He did not wish to use the language of threats, but he re-. collected that the great Chatham, when addressing their. more severe ancestors within those walls, had suffered the lightning of his eloquence to smite the enemies of Reform; menacing them with the dangers that must attend an at tempt to withhold the people's rights : _and he remem bered that that was deemed no insult to those who heard, but an honour to the boldness of him who uttered the de nunciation. For his own part, all that he ventured in this latter day of eloquence and power, and speaking in his far hunehlt r character, to call upou their Lordships to be lieve was this,—that the thundersof heaven were sometimes heard to roll in the voice of a united people. • Lord WYNFORD was happy to find that the Noble and Learned Lord was not one of the projectors of what he considered one of the most scandalous parts of the Bill, —he alluded to die sweeping measure of borough disfran chisement. What he (Lord Wynforti) asked was, that such a measure of sweeping confiscation might not be adopted without any offence proved. Let them first con vict of crime, and then punish. The confiscation did not stop with the boroughs ; it affected the rights of freemen, freelrehlers, and burgage-tenanta. Lct their Lordships take c.ree lest they should employ deprweaponsivei which might might be turned against themselves to-morrow. Freemen chime" the!r freedom by birth by as comp l e t e a riglat as theierxting rdehfirpese:mlaiednelwaietidetnoutthteoirbetitles. Admitting th at the privi leges, how could their Lordships a nswer for taking awa y their rights from the children of -freemen ? Let it be re collected also, that the rights of freeholders in towns and burgage tenants were deecendible by birth. The Noble, I and Learned Lord declared that property was the basis of of the The Visc I )wed, be re qL Adj, Mr. count Lon agains' eashirc duced againsl Mr. of Bayi of Itei tio n to the Je‘ it anti Lon In Lai contai Were t land, return Aft, Dlr. 1