The Sun. — London, England, 1827-05-03 00:00:00

that Lord Liverpool's Government had been of a con trary opinion, he would never have been a member of it. He had not the vanity to suppose that that Administration would have suffered by hie refusal to take a part in it, no such opinion as this ever entered his head,—but, as an honest man, be would have refused on prin ciple, and he must say, that he always understood the principle of that Government to have been as he had stated it. With respect to the place which he held in the present Administration, instead of looking upon it as an honour to be coveted, lie should have con sidered it as a calamity to be dreaded, if, by adopting any , means in his power, he could have kept together the ele ments of the late Administration, which were now unhap pily separated. His Noble and Learned Friend had said that they had been the victims of the basest calumnies. My Lords (added the Noble Viscount) whatever may be the calumny or misrepresentation which they have endured, 1 can declare, with the utmost sincerity, it finds no respon sive feeling in my mind. It is unnecessary for me to de clare, that of any such attacks I can be neither a patron nor a partisan. When it is added (as it has been added) that, in the attacks which are complained of, the press has been under the influence of the Government, I take leave, my Lords, in a-manner the most distinct and unqualified, to .deny the amertion.—(Hear, hear.)—l will go farther than this, and add, that, from what I know of the character of the public press s and the connection subsisting between it and the Government, I have no hesitation in expressing my opinion, that the press is an engine too powerful and independent to be made use of in the way alluded to.; even if the Government were disposed, which it is not, to make the attempt.—(Hear, and a laugh from the Opposition Benches.)—Noble Lords may laugh ; but if they were again sitting at this side of the House—l say, if they were here, and had to settle the question of influence—l will add of independence—with the press, they would soon ascer tain their error, and find it an instrument too powerful to be so readily controulled. As to conspiracy among his Hon. Friends, he was far from imputing any thing of the kind to them. He would not cast such an imputation upon them; nay, he could mat cast such au imputation upon them, even if there existed circumstances which attached the most powerful suspicion to them. Many of the dif ficulties which bad arisen had their origin from want of more communication. He really believed that if there had been more communication, much of what he called the mischief that had taken place might have been prevented. When his Right Hon. Friend told him of his having re ceived his Majesty's commission, he (Viscount Goderich) said he would certainly fulfil his Majesty's commands, and remain ; and he made this answer to the communication, because he felt that for the last 15 years the Catholic question had been left perfectly open in the adminiss tracion; while at the same time, in periods of no or dinary distress and difficulty, the Ministers of the Crown had been in the possession of the confidence of the King, of both Houses of Parliament, and, he thought he might safely add, of the country.—(Cheers.)—lt was true that this Administration had been deprived of its leader ; but then he saw no reason to doubt that if the rest remained unite), they might continue to effect the same object, and it was for this reason that, without wait ing to ask himself the question, he had undoubtedly not hesitated for a moment to say that his services were at the command of his Majesty.—(Cheers. )—He felt that he should have been acting the basest and the shabbiest part, if he had made his decision accoi ding to that of others, as their reasons could not possibly apply to his case. It was morally impossible that the circumstance of the head of the Administration, being a friend to Catholic Emancipa tion, could form any, even the slightest, objection with him. If the Government at present was not constituted in a manner altogether satisfactory, it was not the fault of him and his Hon. and Noble Friends. The object of Mr. Canning was, to keep the elements of the late Ministry together, but they had fallen away, and that without any act of his (Mr. Canning's.) What kind of situation was he then placed in ? What was he to say to his Majesty ? Was he to say, " I will run away and leave you in such a predicament as no Sovereign was ever placed in before?" —He (Mr. Canning) was very well aware that others had said they would not undertake to form an Administration of a contrary nature, and he (Viscount Goderich) did not know on what ground his Honourable Friend could have said—" We will not make any effort to enable your Majesty to carry on the Government as nearly as possible in the same way." The last fifteen years had furnished an unequivocal proof that the people were prepared to support a Government founded • on the princi ples on which this bad been formed. His Noble Friend (Lord Mansfield), who had last addressed their Lord ships, had expressed his sentiments with some degree of asperity; but, at the same time, with some degree of ob • scurity. His Noble Friend had said that it had been as serted that the coalition was unnatural and unprecedented ; that be could not agree with that opinion. He thought that it was neither unnatural nor unprecedented ; but he had some doubts whether it -vas quite sudden. His Noble Friend had assigned as a reason, that he had long watched with suspicion the conciliation of parties opposed to them and the concurrence of those parties with certain measures, thereby insinuating that some petty intrigues had been car ried on, which he (Viscount Goderich) was sure had never existed. He knew perfectly well what the Noble Earl alluded to. The measures in which these parties had con curred were certain measures relating to the internal policy of the country;' and he begged leave to offer himself to his Noble Friend as the individual to whom they were princi pally to be attributed. If these measures were wrong let him be blamed, let the steps which he had taken be re traced, but let not the blame be thrown on others. From the moment in which the cessation of war allowed him to turn his attention more fully to domestic affairs, and gave him an opportunity of dealing with these subjects, he had applied what had been ignorantly called the introduction of innovations, but which was in point of fact only bringing back that policy of the country which the war bad neces sarily broken in upon, and which, notwithstanding the de nunciations of his Noble Friend, had received the sanction of the greatest men, and, he believed, would be found to be practically beneficial to the country in the highest degree.—(Cheers.)—But, whoever brought these mea sures about, be must be allowed to state to their Lord ships that his Majesty's Government was not divided upon them.—(Cries of " hear.")----Every member of that Go vernment was responsible for them, and he therefore felt very little uneasiness at the manner in which his Noble Friend had treated them. He was afraid that he had tres passed too long upon their Lordships.—(Loud cheers.)— He felt that he had expressed himself with too much warmth, and with less self-possession than he ought ; but he would venture to say, that when his duty called him to take a part in the business of that House, in discharge of his duty as Secretary of State, he should not despair of obtaining their Lords/lips' confidence, because he relied upon the justice and the candour of their Lordships.—(Cheers.) He was not placed there from any motives of_personal am bition. He need not perhaps have said so ; but he felt it a relief to his own mind to state, that if he had acted upon his own motives—motives altogether ok a personal nature— he should never have been there. (The Noble Viscount was much affected, and their Lordships evidently entered into his feelings.) He should therefore throw himself upon the indulgence of their Lordships, declaring that he aimed at nothing but the honour of his King and the good of his country.—(Loud cheers.) The Earl of MANSFIELD and the Duke of WELLINGTON explained ; but it was impossible to hear what fell from their Lordships. Earl BATHURST then rose, but, from the position in which his Lordship stood, and the tone in which he spoke, his observations were very indistinct. We understood his Lordship to say, that when he found that Lord Wellington, Lord Eldon, and Mr. Peel had retired, be retired also. It was true that in Lord Liverpool'sAd ministration each member of the Cabinet was at liberty to take what part be pleased upon the Catholic Question, but that as a Government they should be neuter. He had understood, and if he were misinformed the Noble Duke would correct him, that when Mr. Canning proposed that a Government purely Protest ant should be formed, both Mr. Peel and the Duke of Wel lington objected. For his own part, he must' gay that when, by a severe 'visitation of Providence, the country was de prived of Lord Liverpool—when by that event the country was also deprived of the Duke of Wellington, of Lord Eldon, and of Mr. Peel, there appeared to him such a blank formed as would not be filled up in a manner that would justify him in remaining in office. With respect to those who re- , mained, he did not wish to speak disparagingly of any of them; and with respect to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, he should ever retain a lively sense of his services as Chancellor of Exchequer during the war. As to the resignations, he had to declare that there had been no con cert respecting them, however singular a coincidence might have happened in their being sent in. The Earl of WESTMORLAND said, that subject had been so fully answered by his Noble Friend who had just sat down, that it was not necessary for him to trouble their L o r dships with many observations. As the grounds upon which he acted were abort and clear, he would beg leave plainly and strictly to state them. Before he did so, how ever, he had a few short words in answer to certain charges which had been made against the late Members of his Majesty's Government. They had been first charged with caballing against the formation of the new Govern ment, and st "ndlYtwiTh an attempt to invade the exercise of his Maje s ty.. , • , . Neither of these charges were which was the most serious of tb • • sse3. _sa s s spent in support of the C .1 1,11 ._ King's prerogative against those who had devoted their lives to attacking it.—(Hear, and laughter.)—But first, as to the charge of caballing ; now, that was an imputation which could be hardly met any other way than by a flat contradiction, and an assertion that no such cabal had existed. Indeed, when he saw what had been effected, he almost regretted the non-existence of some such cabal, for if there had been any, the unexpected occurrence, which was only known when the blow that it levelled had been shuck, would not prcbably have happened. Every man of the late Government had, in retiring, acted from the impulse of his own feelings, and certainly without the least attempt at forming any cabal. The next, and, as he had said, the most serious charge against them, was, that they had attempted to overrule his Majesty in the exercise of his prerogative. But, first, he would ask, what was the prerogative which they had attacked ? That it was the King's prerogative to appoint his own Ministers, no man could ever doubt ; he had never yet, in fact, beard it contradicted. At the same time, he certainly did remem ber when a charge had been brought against a Right Hon, Gentleman for having made such an attempt. Did, how ever, the law of the prerogative ever go to the extent of in sisting upon any Minister's services without his own con sent? If his Majesty were to fix upon any man, would he be bound to support a reformist, and a de mocrat ?—(A laugh, and hear.)—Was that any part of the King's prerogative? He desired again to know what there was unconstitutional in a man's retiring from office, when he could no longer hold it without a sacrifice of principle ? And if every one of those who now arraigned them h&d, in their turn, refused office under similar circumstances, where was the consistency in circu lating such a charge ? When Mr. Fox and the Duke of Portland, and other eminent men had refused to join Lord Melbourne's Administration, were they considered as hav ing attacked the King's prerogative? It was, in fact, the invariable practice of public men to decline office when dif ferences of opinion arose between them. When Lord Wellesley was directed sty his Majesty to form an Adminis tration, in the year 1912, Lord Liverpool had refused to serve under him, partly because he disapproved of certain parts of the Noble Marquis's public conduct, but principally because of their difference of opinion upon the Catholic question. When Mr. Canning had himself at various times refused to take office, where he (Lord Westmore land) asked, was there a breach of the prerogative ? Was there in 1809, when he quitted office with Lord London derry ? Was thc. - e in 1920, when he again retired ? He had always considered that it was permitted to public men either to accept or recede from office, according ae they thought their services could be rendered use ful to the public. Having relieved himself and those who had aeted with him on the late occasion, from the two charges which had been brought against them, he should shortly state the grounds of his conduct. The first letter which he bad received upon the subject of the Administration, was for a re-construction of Lord Li verpool's government, to which he most readily gave his acquiescence ; but he thought it likewise proper he should know how matters stood respecting the policy of the new government, and who were the parties charged with office under it. And upon these points he confessed that his mind was left in the same state of blindness as the Noble Duke near him ; for he had not learned from the letter which was transmitted to him, nor from his recollection of the previous practice, that the King's nomination of any man to form an Administration must be understood as ipso facto making that man the chief of it. Certain he was, that it was not so considered when Lord Liverpool and the Learned Lord near him were appointed to form the Government of the year 1807. He thought that.upon a reference to the correspondence of that (lay, it would be seen that Mr. Canning had himself asked the very same question of Lord Liverpool, who told him that the chief and every other part of the Administration was open to arrange ment. The answer to the letter which he had received on the . late occasion, which letter did not state who was to be the chief, was of a conditional, not a positive nature. His reply was simply this—that if the chief of the new Ad ministration were to possess the same principles as Lord Liverpool, that he should be happy to give him his best support ; but if the reverse were the case, he should not do so. He knew the differences which prevailed respecting the Catholic Question, into the merits of which he was not now about to enter, further than to say, that be his opinion right or wrong, his sincere belief Was, that by yielding it they would cause great public mischief and mis fortune. And with the prospect of a Cabinet favourable to the measure he could not connect himself, for then he knew his solitary vote could be of no service, with the whole weight of the Government working against him. Again he de clared there had been no cabal, and that the resignations had been accidentally coincident, and the very first he had known of the extent of their occurrence was on the evening when it took place, and by a communication from the great man himself. He had served his Majesty many and many a year, and no man was more proud of it than he was, while under the guidance of the late Administration ; but he had resigned office when he found he could not longer be of any use to his King and country. Lord ?WEL VILLE said, that although it had been stated all the late Ministers were engaged in the supposed cabal, and implicated in the same alleged conspiracy, yet some kind of difference had been made in his individual case. Now, for himself, he could declare, upon his honour, that since Lord Liverpool's illness he had not had the slightest communication upon this business with any of his col leagues. All he could tell was this, that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson) had called upon him on the Wed nesday (if we understood the Noble Lord correctly), to say, that Mr. Canning had then received His Majesty's com mands to form a new Administration, upon the principles of Lord Liverpool's, bottomed upon the same Cabinet, and comprehending the same individuals. His answer was, that he should be happy to serve with such an Administra tion, provided no pledge was required from him upon the Catholic Question, and that he was left to the exercise of his own discretion and judgment on that subject. But it was not until the next day lie had received a communica tion from Mr. Canning. to whom he then stated that he had remained in total ignorance of what was doing respect ing the Administration until Mr. Huskisson had informed him on the preceding day. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) then told him what had occurred, and he cer tainly left him (Lord Melville) under the impression that he would have been able to form such an Administration as he had described. Was there any thing like caballing in his conduct with regard to this business ? It was on the day after that he bad heard of the resignations of Mr. Peel, the Noble Duke, and the Lord Chancellor. Indeed, he had understood from Mr. Canning, who had expressed at the time the greatest regret for the circumstance, that Mr. Peel would not remain in office under the new change. It could not have been expected that he was to embark in a new Government, without knowing the Members of which it was to he com posed and without knowing its character and stability. It was precisely upon that ground he stood. He estimated highly the talents of his Right Hon. Friend ('ilr. Canning) but he confessed he did not think he could form an efficient Government, such as the exigency of the country required, if stripped of his old associates. He had stated his opinion that he would not be an adequate substitute (and he stated it without meaning to convey the slightest offence) to carry on the same prudent, able, and useful superintendence which Lord Liverpool had, and that the remaining portion of the Government would, notwithstanding the splendid talents of his Right Hon. Friend, he unequal to the task of governing this country. It had been very pr yerly said that this was not the place to review any thing which had passed in the interior of his Majesty's Government, but he could not conceal the opinion which he had formed and acted upon respecting the late change in the Government. He had had for twenty years the honour of being per mitted to approach his Majesty, and at his age, perhaps, he ought rather to have retired than remained in office.— His only wish now was to ascertain whether lie had not a right to see his way through the proceedings of the new Ad ministration, and whether there was any impropriety in his expressing a disinclination to act with what he feared would prove to be a weak Administration. He had retired with those among whom he had been long accustomed to act, and he was not conscious of having done any more than he had a fair perfect right to do in the guidance of his own conduct. —( Hear. ) The Marquis of CAMDEN said, that he knew nothing of the transactions which formed the subject-matter of the present discussion, except what he had collected from the statements (which were sufficiently varied and abundant) in the newspapers. These statements, and the explana tions of the Noble Lords in this House, constituted all the knowledge that he possessed upon the question ; and from that knowledge he should say, that so far from matter hav ing gone wrong from any cabal, it appeared to him a mat ter of surprise that there had been's.) little communication between the Members of the late Administration. It ap peared to him that there was not even that ordinary and common intercourse which ought to subsist between Mem bers of the same Government. If such an intercourse had subsisted, much of what occurred might have been averted; as it resulted, in a great degree, in his opinion, from a 'want of full and perfect understanding between the parties. The Noble Marquis concluded by expressing his satisfaction at the explanations afforded by the Noble Lords far their grounds of retirement from Administration. _ _ The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was anxious to protest against himself and his Illustrious Friend (the Duke of Wellington) being run down by insinuations of having 'acted ungratefully or disrespectfully towards their Sovereign. His resignation of the situation (Lord of the Bedchamber) which he had the honour to hold, was re solved upon as soon as he had heard of the appointment of the present First Lord of the Treasury. His opinion of that individual was not formed, for the first time, on the late occasion. So long ago as 1822, when he had the ho nour of being Ambassador at Vienna, he predicted to his Noble Fi iend, the Duke of Wellington, and stated to him his conviction, that, if that individual, after the death of his lamented brother, was appo;nted Secretary for Foreign Affairs, a few years would not elapse before he would show that he would not be satisfied, but that he would force himself to the head of his Majesty's Councils. That Right Hon. Gentleman on several, but particularly on a recent occasion, had realised that conviction by the extra ordinary speech which he had made on the affairs of Por tugal. The principles advanced in which speech amoun ted, in his opinion, to a departure from those diplomatic relations, and political principles, which were considered to constitute the principles of Lord Liverpool's Govern ment, and from which he was confident that his lamented brother (had he lived)—than whom no man was actuated with a more ardent and devoted love for his country— would not have departed. Hehad observed, indeed, for some time back, that new principles were creeping into the Government, which he could not conscientiously support as a Peer of Parliament, and he therefore resigned the si tuation which he had the honour to bold under his Ma jesty. He would again invite any person to read the speech of the present First Lord of the Treasury on the affairs of Portugal, and ask him, if the infatuated enterprize which that Right Hon. Gentleman had recommended to Parlia ment, was not in diametrical opposition to all the principles of foreign alliance or diplomatic relations, on which this country had invariably acted. As to support such mea sures would be, in his opinion, to aim at the subversion of all those principles which his lamented brother maintained, and which he believed to lie deep in the interests of his country, he determined no longer to support Government. Another part of the conduct of the present First Lord of the Treasury, to which the attention of the country was attracted, was his correspondence with his illustrious Friend the Duke of Wellington, which placed him in that situa tion in which he was compelled to retire from the command of the army—a retirement which went to the heart of the army that he commanded, and by which he was beloved. The House would surely bear in mind, that his illustrious Friend ought not to be slighted such au occasion, when it was recollected what respect and honour was instilled into the o.ind of the cca]iitry when the command of the army was entrusted to the illustrious Commander. He would take the liberty of reading to the House the man ner in which his Majesty was graciously pleased to intro duce the mention of his name in the General Order of his appointment : GQ The King feels, that, under the present afflicting cir cumstances, his Majesty cannot more effectually supply the loss which the nation and the army have sustained, than by appointing to the Chief Command of his Majesty's Forces Field-Marshal his Grace the Duke of Wellington, the great and distinguished General who has so often led the armies of the nation to victory and glory, and whose high military renown is blended with the history of Europe. " By his Majesty's command, " HENRY TORRENS." Such was the honourable mention made of him by his Sovereign ; and if the service of his country should again require the exercise of the great abilities of that illustrious General, with what grace could the First Lord of the Treasury call upon him to unsheath his sword after, in consequence of the treatment which he had received, being unable, consistently with his high character, to maintain that pinnacle to which his Sovereign had raised him—to which his great services entitled him—and in which the wishes of the country would gladly continue him. Then as to the Catholic Question, although others may be dis posed to compromise it, yet he was not He owned he was at a loss to account for the conduct of the Noble Mar quis (Lansdown), who, after having opposed Lord Liver pool's Administration for a long time, now marched across the House, as it was understood, to support that very Go vernment to which he had been thus long opposed. But let them not mistake themselves—let them not suppose that by going over they can advance the Catholic Questim., to which they declare themselves pledged. They know they cannot—they know they dare not bring forward that ques tion now 'Or do they not really require it, or will they be satisfied to take the will for the deed ? Let not the Ca tholics expect relief through such means. The Noble Lord next adverted to the speech of a Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Peel), in another Hciuse last night, which he designated as candid, manly, and independent ; and he de dared that, although anxious as he was for the measure of Catholic Emancipation, yet he would prefer that the au thor of that speech, although on the principle of Catholic exclusion, were Prime Minister, rather than that the pre sent Prime Minister held that office, inasmuch as he pre ferred consistency to inconsistency,and honesty to dishonesty. He regretted sincerely that the country had the misfortune to lose that Minister ; and if the friends of Emancipation were to see him Prime Minister, even on the principle of the exclusion of the Catholics, they would at least know the difficulties opposed to them, and would be relieved from excited and defeated hopes, to which they were now sub jected, without any fair prospect of their definite termina tion. Among the extraordinary features which charac terised the present Administration, he could not forbear observing, that on the side of the new Government were found, for the first time, united, persons who had for merly been invariably opposed : there were found on the side of the Minister one Hon. Gentleman (Sir F. Burdett) who was considered the Man of the People, and another Gentleman, of great legal ability, who had been heard in that House as the advocate of the late Queen; but these Gentlemen, forsooth, were seen supporting the Govern ' ment of Lord Liverpool. He had now spoken his senti ments plainly and freely; he was no orator, but lie hoped he was a man of sense.—(A laugh.)—He would not go to a bookseller to print his speech. He was thankful for the attention with which his observations had been heard; he was induced to extend them, from the sense he had en tertained of the treatment of his Illustrious Friend the Duke of Wellington, who was endeared to the army, I and to himself (Lord L.), from having been associated with them in perils and in dangers, of which his Noble Friend did not condescend to think, .yet his country should be grateful for them and for his services, unequalled by those of any of her former com manders. With respect to another Noble Friend of his, the Marquess of Anglesea, he was glad to see him in an honourable situation, although he regretted that the place he occupied was at the expence of the retirement of the Noble Duke ; and he regretted still more, that the Noble Marquess had not endeavoured to reconcile that Noble Duke hack to that place over which he presided so effi ciently, and from which he retired to the sorrow of the whole army.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquess of LANSDOWN said, that he should have contented himself with list;:ning to the explanations of those Noble Lords who had retired from Government, and of those also who had been appointed to the new Ad ministration, had it not been that be and those with whom he acted were so personally alluded to, as to render it impe rative on him to address a few observations to the House. With respect to the Noble Duke late at the head of the army, although he concurred with his Noble Friend (Lord L.) in the expression of regret at the retirement of that Noble Duke from the command of the army, yet he could not help it. It was not for a moment to be supposed that he was dismissed from that situation. But, at the same time, it could not be disputed for a moment that lie had an undoubted right to resign if he thought proper to exercise that right. He thought proper willingly and readily of his own accord to exercise that right, and it was surely most unfair to visit on others the adoption of that course which the Noble Duke had himself preferred to take.—(Hear.)—With respect to the charge and imputation of conspiracy, for his part, he was of opinion there was no ground for such an imputation ; on the contrary, he felt great surprise at the almost total absence of communication which subsisted among the Members of the Administra tion, according to the explanations of the Noble Lords themselves.—(Hear, hear. )—lndeed, from the slight inter course that subsisted among them, no person would sup pose that they were engaged in arrangements on the result of which depended the future fate of England. It was, indeed, in his opinion, a reproach, that there was not a fuller and more perfect understanding between all parties, whereby much inconvenience might be avoided. With respect to an imputed coalition be tween those with whom he was accustomed to act and the First Lord at the head of the Treasury, he could only say, that the idea of such a coalition was absurd, as he never had been even on such terms of acquaintance with that Right lion. Gentleman as their respective situations in society might render probable; and there never had been the slightest approximation towards a coalition be fore the commencement of the proceedings of the last fort night. He would ask, however, what was the accusa ,tion—if accusation it could he call.d—which the Noble Marquis and the Noble Earl had brought against him, and those persons who had lately been placed in opposition to his Majesty's Government. The Noble Earl did not say, for he could not say, that the disposition they now display ed to support the Government, as it existed, arose from any secret intrigue or reprehensible machination upon the part of the one side or the other. The plain and simple reason of those proceedings which had taken place during the last few days was to be found hi that approximation upon great questions of policy which had been taking place for several years, between a portion of his Majesty's Go vernment and those with whom he generally acted. When therefore, the Noble Marquis who last addressed the House (Lord Londonderry) expressed his surprise in seeing him support a Governthent which professed to act upon some undefined principle neither explained nor understood, he must take leave to ask that Noble Marquis to look back to the proceedings of the last few years, as some ex planation of the motives which influenced that sup port. When he recollected that only three years be fore he had used his feeble endeavours to impress upon the House the necessity, in the present state of Eu ropean politics—a state which must, for a great number of years, continue to influence the destinies of the country ; when, he repeated, he had unsuccessfully endeavoured to impress upon the House the necessity of this country's re cognising the independence of these States in South Ame rica which were then freeing themselves from their bon dage, and casting aside the fetters which had been rivetted upon them for centuries, and when he saw a skilful hand had succeeded in smoothing the difficulties which stood in the way of that recognition and that connection—when he saw a wide field opened for commercial speculation, and the exertion of national industry ; did the Noble Marquis sup pose, that any difference as to minor points of policy could prevent him from feeling that the individual who-had suc ceeded in conferring such important benefits upon the country had thereby laid the ground of a strong claim upon his advocacy and support?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Could, he would ask, the Noble Marquis fail to recognise the ef fect of his own humble sentiments upon subjects which he saw about to be carried into effect, and even then pro ducing the mos. beneficial results to every class of the com munity ?—He thought, at the same time, that the Noble Marquis and others would do well to recollect the con sequences which flowed from the recognition of the Spanish Colonies, and allow themselves to consider in what state the Shipping and the Commercial Interests of the country would have been now had the opportu nity which then presented itself to the Right Hon. Gen tleman now at the head of the Government been then un happily neglected. Without the benefits which have flow ed into the country from that and other effects of a more liberal and enlightened policy, he had no hesitation in say ing that the time was fast approaching, when the indepen dense of the country must have been sacrificed, and the advantages for which they had been contending for cen turies wholly obliterated. He came then to another topic touched upon by the No;,le Marquess—the foreign policy of the country; and in speaking of that, he felt himself hound to allude most particularly to a question upon which he thought there was (if there could ever be upon any great public question) an universal concurrence of senti ment ; be meant- that exercise of the power of the country which the Noble Marquess had designated as the infatuated expedition to Portugal. Who, be would ask, had ever before supposed that the expedition to that country was one to be justified and defended upon every prineiple of public honour, er national policy ? It proceeded upon the principle of recognising the independence of nations ; it proceeded upon a right without which the independence of nations could not exist in Europe; it proceeded upon the right of every nation to choose its own Government, and to be its own judge of the nature of the institutions which it proposed to adopt—(Hear, hear, hear!)—it pro ceeded upon the principle, that no nation ought to be strip ped of its privileges by the power of any other, without its own consent ; and that although different nations might consider different forms of Government as suited to differ ent situations, yet when those institutions were adopted, no foreign power was to be permitted to overturn them. —(Hear, hear!)—What, then, did the Noble Marquess think was inconsistent in his support of those who main tained these principles ? Did he think that because those with whom he had the honour to think and to act had al ways advocated the cause of South American independence, and the recognition of that independence, he was therefore to oppose those who advocated the same principles? Did he suppose that because he had always advocated the prin ciples of free trade, and confidently predicted, in the in stance of the silk trade and others with which he had more immediately connected hintself,:the beneficial results to the country from the adoption of those principles—did lie sup pose that, when be saw those principles adopted,. and these benefits produced, he was ..callednponto refuse his confi dence and support to th'at portion of hisMajestyie Govern ment which had Succeeded in accottes i birig those objects he considered to sei;defiiiabli.-? - = - ' l lle , Voble Marquis then alluded to theTraise which : 4had - . l:iten bestowed upon the late Secretary for the , Home: Deparyeent (Mr., Peel), a Gentleman whom it had pleasq the Noble Lord (Lord lese'b agt Londonderry) to e as e very rac of all honour, and the essence of all candour and sincerity, from the simple circumstance of his Idyll J r -refused to ''sit in a Cabinet the head of which had professed- himself favourable to Catholic Emancipation, . :He confessed ,that the Noble Marquis had founded upon ' this a very strange argument,,and the more strange as he avoWed himself to be an advocate for chat Emancipation. The Noble Marquis - bad eulogised th e conduct of the Right :11IonA'Gentlemart in-withdraw ing from a Cabinet favourable to the Catholics. .-.But was that Right Hon. Gentleman,,,who had gone on for years suppo r ti ng a ll th e m ea sures of the Government, even its deviations from that ancient policy ofthe country which the Noble Marquis so much applanded,lo he made the subject of praise because he had thought At to withdraw himself from the situation he held in the Government the moment he found it disposed to lama . Catholic emancipation ? He felt as much as any man the value of the services that Right Honourable Gentleman had rendered the country. He regretted as much as any man that the Right Honourable Gentleman had thought fit to withdraw him self from the situation in which he had been able to accom plish such important alterations, but lie could not agree with the Noble 'Marquis in considering that secession as entitled to the commendations which lie had bestowed upon it. Looking, therefore, either at the foreign or the do mestic policy pursued b y his Majesty's Go vernmen t, h e felt himself equally bound to give it his support. That support, however, was net given to persons, but to things —not to the men by whom measures were to be executed, but to the prospects which those measures held out of realis ing his objects, and thereby adding strength to the consti tutional institutions of the country. In alluding, how ever, to the Catholic question, he did not hesitate to say, that whether on this side of the House or on the other—whether in or out of office, in whatever situation he might be placed—he never could be rendered incapable of stating fairly and openly his opinions upon that question, or of bringing it forward at any time, or under any circum stances which he might consider the most advantageous, or the most likely to advance its ultimate triumph ; and he would add, that leaving himself, as he repeated, at full liberty to choose that time, he never could be induced to move the question in that House, unless under such a com bination of circumstances as he might conceive to he likely to insure the success of the cause he advocated, and pro mote, at the same time, the tranquillity of the empire— (Cneers.)—Whenever that time should come—he did not at that moment venture to say when—but whenever it did come, he hoped so to pursue his course as to aid, not to in jure, the cause he espoused—(Cheers.)—The Noble Mar quess concluded by observing, that having thus stated the reasons which induced baits to support his Majey's Govern • ment, he had only to add, that when he saw his Majesty issuing his commands to the Right Hon. Gent. to form an Administration, and when his Majesty at the same time commanded that Right Hon. Gentleman to propose to him to take a part in the support of that Government, lie felt it his duty—coinciding as he did with that Govern ment in opinions—to bow with submission to those com mands, and to obey them.—(Cheers.)—{We feel obliged to say, that from the confusion below the Bar, and from the Noble Marquis lowering his tone of voice at the end of his sentences, we have }peen forced to omit many observa tions, which must else have been mere matter of con jecture.] Lord ELLENBOROUGH commenced by observing, that he differed from the Noble Marquis who had last ad dressed their Lordships upon man s important points. He was prepared to admit that many practical benefits had flowed from the measures adopted by Mr. Canning, but lie differed from some Noble Lords as to the quantity of credit due to Mr. Canning for those benefits. Upon the question of Foreign Policy, however, he was prepared to chew there had been no benefit from his councils, because Mr. Canning was incapable of inspiring that confidence in the minds of those foreigners with whom he negociated which could alone enable him to render his measures effectual in accomplishing his ohject.—(Hear, from Lord London derry.)—Let the House only look to the commencement of the revolution in the Peninsula of Spain. Every at tempt was ineffectually made by this country to . prevent any foreign Power from interfering in the internal regula tions of that country; and while Lord Londonderry conti nued to uphold the interests of this country among foreigners, those efforts were successful. What had been the effect of the efforts of this country since that time it was unnecessary for him to say. The power of a nation in the eyes of foreigners could only be upheld in two ways —by confidence in its power and in those who directed that power, or by force. If they lost confidence, they could only resort to force to maintain their position ; arid if force could not be conveniently used, the result was not to be mistaken. , Some persons said there had been a great change in the domestic policy of the country since Mr. Canning became a Member of the Government. Tkat was not the fact.—(Hear.)—All the changes in favour of free trade, all the consequences of the recognition of the inde pendence of the Spanish Colonies, were attributed to the efforts of Mr. Canning ; but it was forgotten that the plans and views upon the subject of free trade had been developed long before that Gentleman became connected with the Government. A Noble Lord, who had taken his seat in that House for the first time (Lord Goderich), stated distinctly, that the measures upon that subject had been in contemplation for years ; and it was notorious that the whole of the system upon which the Government sub sequently proceeded was laid down in an exposé of Mr. Wallace, then at the head of the Board of Trade.—(Hear, hear.)—The plan and the groundwork of the edifice were left by the architect, but he (Lord E.) was compelled to say that the person who took the credit of his conceptions, and who was said to have carried them into effect, had not been distinguished by that prudence and cir cumspection which distinguished the founder of the building.—(Hear, hear.)—Then as to the recognition of the South• American States, of which so much had been said ; he recollected very well the motion which had been alluded to, for the purpose of pressing forward the recog nition ; but they knew now, although they did not know then, that the late Marquis of Londonderry and his Ma jesty's Government had long contemplated such a recogni tion ; and it was distinctly intimated by that Noble Lord to the Ministers of the Powers assembled at Aix-la- Chapelle, that such a course would be taken by England at no very distant period. Where, then, was the merit due to the late Foreign Secretary for this exclusive boon conferred upon English commerce?—(Hear, hear.)—lf, therefore, the policy of the country for the last four years was the same as at present, and as it had been before, he could not see that Noble Lords had any reason for giving to the Government a support now which they had refused to it before. He must at the same time declare, that the events of the last fourteen days had left to the country a much less portion of ability for the performance of the various duties of the State than it had ever possessed before.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Lon donderry and others, with cries of " No," from several Noble Lords on the ministerial benches). He repeated, there was less of that talent fit for governiw, Who, for instance, could be said to replace it, the Govern ment the extensive knowledge, the profound, statesmanlike views of Lord Liverpool ? A Nobleman who, to all the talents which fitted him above all others for his high situa tion, joined a degree of candour and upright integrity never before seen in any department of the State. In the Home Department, the country had lost the unblemished virtues, and the valuable services of a Right Honourable Gen tleman, whose place could not possibly be filled at present by any man of equal merit, and whose place must be filled for many years by a man of equal talent, before he could acquire that extensive experience and intimate knowledge of the public service which enabled Mr. Peel to render so many services to the country. They had lost, too, the Noble Duke who presided so worthily over that department which his services and his experience en titled him to manage; but it was not alone as a military servant that the country must deplore his lose. In losing him the nation had lost a great moral support in its councils (cries of " hear, hear,")—a moral support, which few were ably truly to appreciate ; for that Noble Person was the last remaining link of that chain which connected the country in bonds of amity with Sovereign Powers, or which inspired that degree of confidence in our councils necessary to command respect and obedience.—(Hear, hear. )—No man, therefore, could doubt that the country had lost much of the ability which had hitherto regulated its destinies. He came now to the question upon which so much had been said—the question of Catholic Emanci pation. With the most uncompromising feeling of hosti lity to the Administration of the country as at present constituted, he still maintained his entire devotion to the cause of the Catholics ; and, however that hostility might be shown, or however strongly he might feel it neces sary to declare it, be never could, under any circum stances, allow their support of that question to be detri mental to their power, or use their opinions in favour of it as a ground for displacing them.—(Hear.) —He con fessed, however, that he could not possibly comprehend the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Can ning), when he said he had advised his Majesty to form an Administration decidedly hostile to those claims which he so warmly advocated. If, as it was to he gathered from his speech, the Right Hon. Gentleman thought that an Administration of that kind would entail so many calami ties upon the country, and prove in itself a source of so much evil that it must necessarily fall to pieces to make way for him and his colleagues—he confessed he could not comprehend how an advice of that kind, which must pro duce so much calamity, was reconcilable with that oath which the Right Honourable Gentleman bound himself to fulfil when he was called upon to take part in his Majesty's Councils.—(Hear, hear.)—Still less could lie comprehend how the Noble Marquess (Lord Lansdown) and his friends could, with confidence, join an Adrninisti a tion of which that Right Honourable Gentleman was to be the head. When he was told still further, however, that the Catholic Question was not to be mentioned by that Admi nistration, unless there was a moral prospect of carrying it, he could not help feeling that the Question was abandoned —that the support which had been hitherto afforded it was withdrawn, and that it stood now upon much worse grounds than when its opponents were at the head of the Government. How was that Question advanced but by discussion—continued discussion ?—and if they were to be told that it was not to be discussed unless its supporters or proposers were confident of having a majority in both Houses of Parliament, then he would say that it never would be discussed at all, and that it must be con sidered as literally abandoned by its present supporters.— (Hear, hear, from Lord Londonderry.) How much more favourable would it have been, with the view of forward ing the interests of the Catholics, if it had been known that the influence of the First Lord of the Treasury would have been exerted in the attainment of the object they were seeking ? As the Administration was at present consti tuted, he would say, as a friend to the Catholics, that he considered its formation to have been the most deadly event to the success of the Catholic cause. If, however, hespoke as a Protestant advocate, he should declare that he could have no confidence in an Administration in which the First Lord of the Treasury kept back the discussion of a question till he himself thought success was certain—a line of conduct which might be compared to laying a mine under the feet of his opponents, to blow them into the air when he wffi pleased. ce He under an thought Adm that inistr no ati no on h s o o urabl e man constituted; c a o n u d l d i f take Noble Marquis (Lansdown) did entertain an idea of asso ciating himself with the Noble Lords who sat beneath him, he could only do so on the express belief that by doing so he should further the success of the Catholic cause. He Was happy that what he bad said in the early part of the even ing had drawn from some' Noble Lords the full—the satis factory explanation, which they had heard to-night. He was sure that no one would think he had put those questions with any unfriendly view. On the contrary, he had done so with the best intentions, supposing, as he did, that it was impossible they could have been guilty of such conduct as had been imputed to them. _ _ The Marquis of ANGLESEA then rose and spoke nearly as follows :—" ofy Lords--A Noble Marquis, a g a ll ant friend of mine, (for so I will call him notwithstanding the very uncourteous al'-sion he has made to me,) seems to require an explanation of my conduct—to receive an ac count of the circumstances that have placed me in the situation in which I now am. If my Nob!, and Gallant Friend had not very unaccountably avoided me ever since I have been in London, I could in three minutes have satis fied his curiosity, and relieved his mind from the strange delusion under which he has spoken and acted, and thus saved your Lordships' time. Being called upon, however, for an explanation, I will not hesitate to give it, and shall have the less scruple in giving it, as my story is simple and short, and may therefore be comprised in a very .few words. My Lords, I have long given my support generally to the measures of the late Administration, I have done so upon principle, I have done so from a perfect con fidence in the great talents, f us the real political integrity of its members, from a sincere friendship and regard for many of them, and from an admiration, amounting almost to veneration of some. But, my Lords, in supporting their measures, I neverfor a moment lost my independence ; I remained unshackled, unfettered, upon every political question—l was not committed upon a single subject, I remained free as the air I was breathing, when, far in the country, and little expecting to exchange that air for a political atmosphere, I received a summons—a call was made upon me, from whence a call never was, and never can be, made in vain—l was called to attend the Council of my Sovereign—to support the Throne. Let it not be imagined, my Lords, that in snaking use of this expression I mean to say that I thought the Throne was attacked— that the Throne was in danger. No, my Lords, I know full well that the Crown never can have more able, loyal, trusty supporters, than were the Members of the late Ad ministration. But, my Lords, the Throne was not the less left unsupported for the moment, a breach at least had been made in the defence by the late secession, and I was called upon to fill an important military post. Conscious of my own inability, I nefertheless obeyed the call, and brought with me no recommendation but an ardent zeal for the public good—an anxious desire to render every ser vice my feeble assistance could give ; as long as those services may be considered useful I will give them with all the energy of which I am capable. The very moment any arrangement can be made that may be considered more conducive to the public service, at that moment, and with out the slightest previous notice, I shall be ready to retire with the same good humour, and with much more joy, than I accepted the office I hold. My Lords, in respect to the insinuations thrown out by my Noble and Gallant Friend, that I had been assisting in drawing the stool from under the • feet of the Gallant and Illustrious Duke, under whom it has been my greatest pride and pleasure to serve, and with ~ whom I have ever been upon terms of the most agreeable and friendly intercourse, I will not condescend to say one single word in my defence. Of this lam quite certain, that the Gallant Dnke knows me to be incapable of such conduct. In point of fact, if I chose to enter into ex planation, I might show that the very reverse of what has been imputed to me is the real fact; and the day may, perhaps, come, when my friend, the Noble and Gallant Marquis, may feel remorse at having thus wantonly out raged the feelings of an old friend and companion in arms. Lord LONDONDERRY explained. The Earl cf . WINCHELSEA should not feel that he did justice to his own feelings if he did not say a few words upon this subject. He thought there never had been an ' era in our history like the present since the time of the constitutional revolution, so complete had been the change in every respect. A coalition, it seemed, had been formed of parties that had long been opposed to each other ; and in this preposterous coalition, as he must call it, some one or other of the parties must have compromised his previous political opinions. The Noble Earl then contrasted the disinterestedness of the Noble Lords and Gentlemen who had resigned their places with the conduct of those now in office, and especially of the Right Honourable Pre mier ; and observed, that whoever considered the career • which that Right Hon. Gentleman had pursued, must be convinced that ambition and the love of place had been the pivots of his political life. He believed that none of the supporters of that Right Hon. Gentleman, who were now present, could explain truly what were his sentiments upon the great questions of the Government. The petition was then laid on the table, and the House adjourned at a Quarter-past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MAY 2. NENE OUTFALL BILL. Lord WILLIAM RUSSELL last night moved to add the names of two Members to the Committee on this Bill ; but his motion was, on the proposition of Mr. Calcraft, adjourned to this night. His Lordship now moved the Order of the Day for the adjourned debate upon his mo tion ; and upon its being read, he proposed that the names of Lord Milton and Lord John Russell should be added to the Committee upon the Nene Out-fall Bill. Mr. POYNTZ said, he must oppose the motion. The House had, in the course of this Session, passed a Resolu tion regarding the manner in which Committees on Private Bills should be elected, and he thought that Resolution ought not to be made waste paper by motions of this sort, to add names to Committees already famed. He was sure 1 , there was no man who had a greater respect for the names of Lords Milton and Russell than he had, but he did not think that personal merit alone was sufficient to justify the infraction of a very proper Resolution. The Marquess of Tavistock, before the Holidays, bad given notice that he should move to add six names to this Committee. Four of these were of the Noble House of Russell, and the other two were Lord W. Bentinck and Lord Milton. Since then the numbers had been reduced to three, and now again to two. He repeated, he had no objections to the persons proposed, but he had to the principle of the addition ; a nd if the motion was persevered in, lie would not let it pass without a division. Mr. LITTLETON was also opposed to the motion. He • felt himself much interested in this question, on account of the part he had taken in bringing these Resolutions into existence. He concurred with his Honourable Friend who had just sat down, that they must be mere waste paper un less they were acted on. He admitted that a case might arise, in which it would be advisable to increase the original List of the Committee; but then it ought not to be done without the consent of both parties concerned. In the pre sent instance, one of the parties objected, and he did not think any strong reason existed to make the proposed ad dition. If the Noble Lords who were now proposed had any interest in the question which would be discussed in • the Committee, that was, of itself, the strongest reason . • why they should not be added to it. If it was the pleasure of the House to destroy the balance they had so recently erected, let them do it, not by one petty addition, but, once ' for all, by a decided act—let'them avow they had aban doned the system which the Resolutions had established. A MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, said, that if the motion went to a division he should oppose it. Lord FRANCIS OSBORNE said he should support the motion, becabse he thought that the Noble Lords ought . to have the opportunity of affording the Committee every information, if by its decision their property was to be die posed •.' of. Mr. HUME agreed with the Honourable Member oppo site (Mr. Poyntz), as to the personal fitness of the two Noble Lords now proposed, and was glad that the present opposition had been made to men to whom there was no personal objection, as an opportunity was thus afforded the House to mark, in the strongest manner, their sense of the propriety of the Resolutions. Sir R. WILSON (who spoke frotn the third Ministerial ' Bench) said, he agreed with Mr. Hume that it was a question of principle and not of personal character. He • trusted the Noble Lord would not press the question to a ' division. • Lord J. RUSSELL and Lord MILTON both declared they were not interested in the question. After a few words from Mr. MABERLY and Mr. BRIGHT, the motion was negatived without a division. SCOTCH MAGISTRATES. Mr. HUME presented a petition, signed by 4000 of the Inhabitants of Dundee, against vesting in the Magistrates of their Borough the power of imposing a tax upon beer, ac cording to the provisions of a Bill which the Magistrates were now pressing through the House. He should move to bring up the petition, and he hoped the Committee would take it into their consideration, and would put an end to that power of taxation which was proposed to be vested in a body of irresponsible men like the Scotch Magistrates. If money was wanted in the Borough, the power of raising it ought only to be granted to responsible men. The petition was brought up and laid upon the table. RECIPROCITY DUTIES.—DISTRESS General PHIPPS presented a petition from the Trades men and Artizans of Scarborough, against the Reciprocity Duties Bill.—Ordered to lie on the table. Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from the Ship owners of Kirkaldy, complaining of distress. CATHOLIC CLAIMS. The Marquis of CHANDOS said, that he had been en trusted with a petition from Olney, Buckinghamshire, against further concession to the Roman Catholics ; and he could not refuse to avail himself of the present occasion • of stating, that if any thing like consistency existed among the present Ministers, they mast unite themselves in order to carry the Catholic Question. He, for one, was deter mined to do all in his power to defeat the object, and could place no confidence in the impartiality of a Government which had a Roman Catholic advocate at its head be was satisfied that the new Cabinet would do its utmost to pro cure concession. In the meantime, it remained for the people of England also to act. In the county to which he (Lord Chandos) belonged, the feeling against the Roman Catholics was strong and general. Much alarm prevailed on this subject, and the dislike of the Roman Catholic Ad ministration was by no means confined to narrow limits throughout the country—(Hear, hear).—He had no doubt that petitions would be poured in, not only to both Housea of Parliament, but laid at the foot of the Throne, against the continuance of such a Government. He would never consent to such an innovation on the Constitution es the admission of Catholics to office : the breach would be irre e to deplore o o r f e t h t o h s e e rwho melancholy assisted in e"' a undertaking rab l e;andwould now if have suc cess. He had been anxious to declare his sentiments, and he entreated the country to come forward in a manner an decisive as to drive the question of emancipation for ever out of the doors of Parliament.—(Hear.)—Though humble individual, be trusted his voice would be heard, and his call obeyed. Never, as long as be lived, would he quietly consent to Catholic emancipation.—(Hear, hear.) On the question that the petition be brought up, • Mr. HUME wished to make one or two remarks. He doubted much the assertion of the Noble_Lord regarding the general alarM and distrust of the Government, merely because it had at the head of it an individual wire had sup ported the claims of the Roman Catholics. If the Noble Lord and his friends were a criterion of the state of the public mind, certainly the terror and dissatisfaction were great, but did not threaten any very disastrous conse quences. He (Mr. Hume) hoped that there was sufficient generosity and spirit among the people of England to pre vent them from refusing, at this time of day, an equal par, ticipation of rights, merely on the score of religious differ- , ences. He had too high an opinion of the great masa of the people not to be persuaded, that even if the supposed dislike existed at all it would not shortly be overcame- Whatever change had occurred in the Government, the opinion last night deelared by the First Lord of the Trea sury was no doubt correct; and if so, the peril was not in any respect increased. It was, besides, happily not in the power of any First Minister of the Crown to change the Constitution of the country. Whatever the Right Hon. Gentleman in his wisdom might determine, whenever he might again bring forward the subject, he (Mr. Hume) wished him success ; and he hoped, that in choosing hie time, the Prime Minister would duly consult What was