The Sun. — London, England, 1834-02-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAIVIENt HO USE OF LORDS, FEB. 14, Mr. Knight, from the Bank^,of England, presented account of the sums received and expender:t i p - I - the Commilk sioners for . the Reduction of the National Debt id the course of the last year. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the Facto ries' Regulation Amendment Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed and read a third time on Monday next. Lord KENYON presented a petition from the vestry of Mary'ebone against the Bill for the removal of Scotch and Irish vagrants. The Noble Lord considered that Bill most unjust, inasmuch as it operated more strongly in s-me coun ties than in others, particularly the county of Midd'esex. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the House adjourned to Monday at half past three o'clock. H 0 USE OF COMMONS, FEB. H. The SPEAKER took the Chair at five o'clock, when the first motion brought up. Was for an account of Exchequer Bills. Mr. BUCKINGHAM moved for a Committee of Inquiry into the laws authorising the impressment of seamen, on th, 4th of March. Colonel EVANS. presented a petition from the inhabitants of Westminster, praying for the repeal of the house and win. dow taxes. Mr. KENNEDY moved for a copy of the names of the sti pendiary magistrates appointed to the various police-offices in the metropolis—their dates of appointment, hours of attendance, places of residence, occupation—whether called to the bar, or what other profession or trade occupied in. REPEAL OF TAXES. The SPEAKER left the Chair, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. Lord ALTHORP rose and said, it is now my intention to call the attention of the House to my views of the present state of the finances of the country. I hope the House will excuse my entering into any detailed statements at the period of the year at which I speak. lam now about to speak as to the prospect,: of the financial year, which the House knows will not terminate for two months after the present period ; and, although I thus early call the attention of the House to it, it will be quite impossible to do so unless in a general manner.—(Hear, hear.) It will be quite in vain to state what is to be expected dtiring the year. It may be asked why I should have taken a different course this year from what I took last year. During the last year there were various reasons which induced me to think I ought not to intro. duce this subject to the consideration of Parliament until after the commencement of the financial year. One of my reasons was, that if I had made my statement at the corresponding period of . the last year, it would have been necessary to state to the House that the surplus of the revenue over the expenditure did not amount to more than 700,0004 If I had made that statement at the end of the year, I should have had to announce a much larger sum, and I could not have proposed those reductions, which lam quite sure at a later period I could have done, , without deducting more than I conceived to be pru ,. dent from the revenue of the country.—(Hear, hear.) 1. 1 4 therefore thought it was better to delay that statement after the commencement of the financial year. I see no nelson to expect that any very considerable change will take place *the amount of the revenue to the end of the present ouatrteniHear, hear.) Before I enter upon what that _surplus revenue Has been, I wish to call the atten -tion of the House to the state of the finances, and ... nat. has been :he balance of the three last years. At the end .af the year 18n/i the amount of the balance in favour of the , . : ary was '2,14 - 00 ,1 /., but the House will recollect that se. t'c i ; al faxes to a much larger amount had been reduced during the prt.ce.ling year, warren did not come into operation until he .succeeding year, IC3I. I stated at the time to a et Hun. I::_ntlernan, whom I do not see now in his place, • concurred withine in my view, that if I had proposed ,ctioos At)* eV of :1 e year 1831, instead of a ba .914,0001., tfler : Jr:lance would have been only ' , elt it righefto 4 , iftose,at that period a conside "f taseS,: id, .'s eo.isequence of that reduc .l.otV th( 1831, there was, as I . lfiket,,y .. , 0004110/.—(Hear, hear.) an.e.ci at that redo - '" because I felt ^es of th - such, that the - er •.creased during ...:. nted to 1,240,000!. • . , ..,f taxes that were reduced stlcipated, the revenue recovered se, lan year, instead of there being a --- %.cY 01 ',, ' ' !", was a surplus of 1,487,0001. hair?, 12.• ke.': . u . ....- r . - co nsiderable amount of e4is. Pdtssi ..a. y , - ax- :' ,a. , .3-2 the amount of taxes rellealed vva,' 1. , 1 .90 1 ,1:1001. awl , , , Z 3. L.. ! amount repealed was 1,545,0001. When I say repealea, I it,ean the amount that the taxes had produced in the previous years, and not what I estima ted that they would produce ; but to that amount the country was relieved. During these two years there was a total re duction of 3,335,000/. Sir, notwithstanding this reduction, I am happy to say, that by the balance.sheet up to the sth of January last, the surplus appears larger than it was in April last year,—that is to say, that it gives a surplus of upwards of I,sl3,oool.—(Cheers.) I feel confi dent that it must be satisfactory to the House to know, that notwithstanding this continued reduction of taxes, such has been the improvement in other branches of taxation, that the surplus of the revenue is so much over the expenditure —(Cheers)—and I do not sea why we should not expect further continuance of that improvement.—(Cheers.) I.hepe, therefore, - I need not anticipate any loss to the revenue from these circumstances.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, in addition to all this, I will state in round numbers that the estimates required this year, will be reduced from what they were in the last year by half a million.—(Cheers.) I hope that Hon. Gentlemen will recollect that during the last two years there hasbeena considerable reduction in the estimates, and that they will not think we have been remiss in our duty of rill further reducing them this year. This will of course raise the ;amount of the surplus revenue over the expenditure from 1,400,0001. to 2,000,0001. But there is another source from which I have a right to expect a considerable increase of reve nue, without the imposition of any fresh burdens on the people. The House will recollect that by the arrangement with regard to the renewal of the East India Company's charter, the tax on tea was altered, and it was no longer to remain an ad valorem duty, which would render it exceedingly difficult to be collected from the free traders. Therefore the change made so far as I can calculate, namely, from last June, would place the revenue on the same footing as the ad valorem duty. lam quite aware that it must be evident to the House that, under any circumstances, the consumption would not be lessened, and the effect would be that there would be a larger Rroportion of duty at the ad valorem duty. The amount of the duty per pound upon tea would not be greater than it was at the period to which I have alluded. The effect of this change will be material in other points of view. When an increased quantity of tea was brought into the market theprice was diminished, and the duty was also di. mashed, but it would be evident that under the present system, when the amount of tea was increased there would be a corresponding increase of revenue.—(Hear, hear, and isheers.) It might be said that if the revenue should pe increased by the amount of tea, that would be a very strong reason for reducing the duty. Looking to the pre sent state of the country, and to the taxes to which the attention of the Government has been ca'led, I am not prepared to say that the reduction of the duty upon tea was one of those which it was intended to effect.' —(Hear, hear.) At any rate, from the cessation a the mono soirpsporttletift the effect would be the same as if we had reeteeed the duty. This will be the case next year, as, instead of the East India Company bringing to their euarterly` sales 8,000,0001b5. of tea, it is the intention of tiovernmeiit in disposing of this tea to bring 9,000,0001b5. of it into tie maw's at every quarterly period. It is manifestly au , liiec:. of iric, qtattce, though unconnected with the revenue, th:st the stock of 'tea in the hands of the East India Company , 'lei be reduced as far as is consistent with the free sale . far. as it will not interfere with the general the commencement of the spring of 1835, Alen ttie will be thrown open, it is desirable on .il such grounds to increase the Revenue ; but on the general principles of trade, it would not be pro per to inter ere with the private trader. According to the ann.unt of the quantity of tea sold, the duty was Ate the three first quarterly sales which had t, ',en :dace, Mice had been given, and I have no doubt that, hi.it sales effected by the Boar 1 of Control, in addi tion to that sold by the private trader, the quantity will amount to 36,000,000 ib. during the year ; and the amount of duty being 3,300,0001., will amount to 3,900,0001 This will give, therefore, an addition to the revenue ( 7! 600,0001. I have stated what is likely to be the revenue of the e'untry during the year, and I will now state what will be o t , additional calls upon it. The main additional call to which I allude, is the money to be provided for the payment of the interest of the loan Lo be raised as a grant for the West India Proprie. h..r.) That loan is 20,000,0001., as the House knows ; and I think i cannot estimate the interest of it at less than 800,0001. 1 have stated that the surplus of the revenue yvould be 2,600,000/. ; deducting from this 800,0001., which is pecessary for the payment of the interest granted to the West jfidia proprietors, there will be left a surplus of 1,800,0001. I say at onee, what no man who ever heard me state my opi nioniis this HOWBean doubt, that having a surplus of 800,000/., I should calculate upon that to make a considerable reduction. I hope the House will not think I do too little if, at this early period, I propose only a moderate reduction, because the House will see, by looking back, how important it is to attend to this prin ciple ; I have shown, by not attending to it, as ought to have been done, in 1831, that the effect was a large reduction in the future revenue. I really do believe from what I see and know of the resources of this country, that the House may, if they have patience, and do not make too large an inroad upon the revenue at once, year after year, gradually relieve the country.—(Hear.) I hope, therefore, that the House will not press for any thing beyond what I propose.—(Hear.) There is no reason whatever that I should not state my Intention to reduce the taxes 1,200,0001. I must say that it is impossible for me not to congratulate the House upon a point upon which I have already touclicd.—(Hear, hear.) This country and this House, for the purpose of doing a ifreat act of Justice, and setting an example which I hope and trust will be imitated in other countries, we', prepared to come forward with the immense sacrifice of .2.0,00,,000/. for the abolition of West Indian slavery ; and yet, potwithstanding that sacrifice, a considerable reduction of taxes pay be AM de.-,(Loud cheers.) This must De satisfactory, gss. aot only rift pibveo.the Rovre! . ful resources of the country, but alto to know and fihd that the country is ready to make that sacrifice, and that it is found able to perform this act of humanity without any additionats,yressure of taxation.—(Cheers.) I cloac44uppose the Houselkill be very ,nltirp surprised at what lam about to at NAt i g itg end of thelast session, I intimated pretty str y, that if the revenue would bear it, I would this session propose the repeal of the house tax.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It is my inten tion to suggest to the House that proposition now, but while I do it, I beg to say that on many points with respect to this tax false impressions have gone abroad. It has been stated that it is a war tax, and that it is a breach of faith to continue it during the time of peace. But instead of its being a war tax, by the Act of 1808 by which it was in creased, it was expressly made a tax for a permanent addi tion to the revenue. I need not also say that in many other respects, if I look at this question simply as a financial question, I think there are other taxes that it would be more desirable to repeal than this.—(Loud cheers.) But, Sir, al though this is the case, I have stated myself, and I must say I feel it very strongly, that it is one of the ingredients in the impropriety of this tax that it is extremely unpopular.- -(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Taking all,these circumstances into consideration, I do think the best suggestion that I can make to the House is, that this tax should now be repealed, but the House must recollect that this tax absorbs nearly the surplus of 1,800,000/.—(Hear.) I hope, therefore, that the House, if it agrees with me that this is the tax that ought to be repealed, will not press me to any larger reduction. Ido not Essen to say that I should not be inclined to reduce one or two taxes to which I will not now allude in preference, and that if the revenue continues in the same state as it is, I hope to be able to propose them.—(Cries of "Hear.") What I mean to say is this, that I hope and trust the House will, if they should think proper to reduce the house tax, support me in resisting reduction of any other large amount of taxes. With this view, it is not my intention to introduce anyßill for the repeal of the house taxes until I see how certain motions, notices of which have been given, are disposed of.—(Hear, and laughter.) I shall take care not to reduce the taxes until lam quite sure of my substitute. Now, I know that in discussions respecting the house tax, the window tax is constantly united with it. Sir, the house and window tax es are both taxes on dwell ing -houses ; but the objections I have always heard urged so strongly to the house, do not apply tothe window tax. It is not a tax which bears unfairly, at least I do not apprehend it does, on any particular class of houses—though it does apparently on the lower class, and on houses in towns rather than those in the country. Now, Sir, I should state, with respect to the window tax, that since 1822, the amount of the window tax, reduced, has been not less than 1,466,3731., and the amount at present received from the window-duty is 1,273,0001. Sir, it is impossible, if we have any regard to the public credit, that we should add to the reduction of the house-tax that •of the window tax. Now, I should like on this subject to refer the House back to that year which, with all economical reformers, has always been considered the golden year—l mean 1792. I shall compare what the tax at that time on dwelling_ houses produced, and what they will produce when the house tax is reduced. In 1792 the house and window tax amounted to 1,129,0001., and at present, the house tax being repealed, the only tax remaining will be the window tax, which will amount to 1,200,0001. Therefore, at the present time, dwel ling-houses will not produce to the revenue, notwithstanding their enormous increase, a I,rger amount of taxes than theydid in 1792. I therefore do think that any demand for the reduction of the window,in addition to the house tax,will not be reasonable. Now, I must fairly admit, and I dare say I shall be told, that in the proposition I now make, I am giving relief to the trading districts, while I have admitted, and Ministers have ad mitted, that the landed interests require relief. Sir, I cannot deny the truth there will be in this statement. But it will be for the House to decide whether it will adopt the suggestion I have thrown out, or reject it, for the purpose of obtaining a reduc tion of taxes in other ways. They say they are pressed upon, not so much from the public taxation of the country, as from local taxation. Now, Sir, if this is the case, it shows that Ministers are not neglecting the landed interests, when they are about to bring in measures to relieve them from tithes. (Immense cheering.) The gentlemen who cheer me so warmly are of course perfectly aware of what I mean—of course I do not mean to abolish tithes altogether, but to relieve the landed interest, and more particularly the occupiers of the soil, irons a source of very great vexation and annoyance—it is to relieve that class from a very great burden, by a fair commutation of tithes, which I am sure will be felt as a very great relief by every one connected in any way with land. Now, Sir, the other point to which the Government have pledged themselves to apply their attention, is the amendment of the poor laws. Now, if we are able to propose measures which will be satisfactory to the House upon those points, then I contend that we shall give more relief to the landed interest, than by the reduction of some taxes, which apparently press more immediately upon it. Then, Sir, with respect to Ireland, Ido not mean at present to state what measures I have in con templation, but the Government have one of a financial nature under their consideration, which I trust will be so ar ranged as not to lead to any reduction of the Revenue, yet at the same time afford very great relief to that country. More, at the present time, I do not feel it would be desirable to say. Sir, I have now stated the general views of the Govern ment upon the financial state of the country. At the outset I stated that I did not intend to go into any details, but intended merely to bring under the view of the House, and to lay before the country, the ge.mral financial affairs of the country, as they at present stand. Having now done that, Ido not know that I have more to address to the House. The Noble Lord then concluded by moving, that a supply of 14,000,0001. be granted to his Majesty for_the service of the present year. Mr. ROBINSON then rose, but in consequence of the con.. fusion, and noise from Members leaving the House, it was impos sible to hear a single sentence of the Honourable Member's statement. We, however, understood him to say that although he was free to confess that there were some points about the statement of the Noble Lord which were satisfactory, yet, taking it as a whole, he did not look -upon it in so favourable a light as he had anticipated he should. He considered that the Noble Lord ought to reduce taxation to the whole amount of the means he had at his disposal. With re. spect to the proposed reduction of house duty, hemust say, that he differed with the Noble Lord in his reduction of that duty. Although he agreed with him in the view he took of the reduc tion of taxation—that it would be impossible, without the sub stitution of some new tax, to reduce both the houseand win dow duty together—yet he must say that the proposition of the Noble Lord to reduce only the house duty was not a very flattering measure. He must say, also, with respect to the house tax, that he had always considered it, as well as the window tax, unobjectionable in point of principle.— (Hear, hear, hear.) They were taxes, if properly Proportioned, which bore upon the property of the country They were taxes which did not apply to the lower classes, and therefore he must say that he regretted that the Noble Lord, if he could not take off both taxes, had not turned his attention to some mode by which, preserving the principle of those taxes, 'he might have collected the whole amount by some more fair mode of payment. He (Mr. Robinson), considered that no great relief was afforded to the lower classes by the taking off such a tax, while many vexatious ones remained, which might be removed for thebetter alleviation of their condition.—(Hear.) Had the six hundred thousand pounds which were to spare, been previously distributed through t. e reductions of other taxes, great relief would have beeen afforded. The Noble Lord was doubtless anxious to re lieve the people ; but petty, remedial measures should not be ap plied to a system, in itself unfair, and pressing grossly on the people. The statement of the Noble Lord would afford no satis_ faction, he was sure ; and many difficulties would be brought on Ministers, from the fact of so little being done, after the considerate expressions put into his Majesty's mouth, for the deteriorated and depressed state of certain classes.—(Loud cheers, during which the remaining part of the Hon. Gentle man's sentence was lost.) He would now sit down ; he did dot with to occupy too much of the time of the House. He could not refuse his meed of praise to the Ministry for the fair and candid statement of the estimates. Lord ALTHORP begged to observe that the house tax was a large tax and would be of corresponding advantage to the country by its abolition. The other matters were of minor bulk to that. Mr. COBBETT said, that after the statement made by the Noble Lord, his only surprise was that he had made any statement at all. It did not appear that there was any good reason for it now, except to stop them from asking the repeal of taxes. He stands up to see how many will cheer his statement—whether we will continue to bear those burdens, for indeed he is taking nothing from them at all, and then he will proceed to refuse all repeal of taxes. The Noble Lord says that he will repeal the house tax. He agreed with him that that tax was not very oppressive— that it was a very proper tax for the exigencies of the state.— (Hear.) Were he in the Noble Lord's place, he would not have reduced the house tax, and although he might be a popu larity hunter, as the Hon. Member for Hull had called him, if he were in the Noble Lord's place he would not have done so after what had taken place. It was an encouragement to the people to proceed in the same way again. The Hon. Gent. said he had never heard him (Mr. C.) recommend the non-payment of taxes, either in writing or speaking. He encouraged them not to resist, but to use passive resistance. They wanted to have the malt tax repealed, and he hoped it would be done He had already prepared the cutting of young hops—(Laugh ter)—and this he would say, that no excisemen should ever touch those hops.—(Hear.) He wished to restore the good old custom of having a little malthouse attached to every farm-house.—(Laughter.) He was determined that he would make malt before next Michaelmas day. The Noble Lord said that he will send excisemen to seize it. Will he? (Great laughter).—He (Mr. Cobbett) would not allow them to touch it. If not, he says he will send soldiers. He (Mr. C.) would plant a battery of barrels of beer in the way, —and if one true drop of English blood was in those soldiers they would never act. The people would make malt themselves and the Noble Lord encouraged them to make malt, and the doing so was a great deal better than the resistance to pay the house and window taxes.—(Hear, hear.) He would not, however, follow the Not•le Lord through the whole of his topics, for they must all come over again. He had cheered the Noble Lord when he said he intended to relieve the landed interest. Did it look well when his Majesty had spoken of the distress of the agricultural interest, that the Noble Lord should specify no plan of relieving it Y The Noble Lord said that the landed interest should be greatly relieved, and he adverted to the system of tithes. He (Mr. Cobbett) knew that the Noble Lord meant a com mutation of tithes. Did the Noble Lord mean that the land, would render -less to the tithe-owner than it now renderel!—(Hear, hear.) It was not the name of the thing but its substance,— (Hear, hear.) If the commutation '"ee sss. l• 2 ansou'Etesd Miss much as the tithes liss name,iirre would be no relief it - all; and if it did not wrnount Sks IQ much it would be taking away part of the Property of thNit i ge owner in a very rude manner, and without assigning any reason. Alen it would be a robbery, a confiscation of property, and the Noble Lords wilt, au his ingenuity could not put a different interpretation upon it —(Hear.) Taking a part of the property of the tithe owner, without it was ex. tended to other classes of the community, particularly the fund. hollers, would be a confiscation of the property of the tithe owner, which the House ought not to sanction.—(Hear, hear.) One of these two things must take place, either that there would be no real relief, particularly to the occupiers of the land—for how were they to be re: ieved by taking away tithes and poor rates ? —or itwould fall on the lower classes. If the occupiers had on the average leases of four years, they would be the better for the measure during that period, but after that it would come into the hands of the landlord, and then, instead of being the bet ter, they would be a great deal the worse, and naturally so, for if he were a landlord himself, they would get worse bargains from him.—(Laughter.) There was another mode of relief, — they were told there was to be a change in the poor laws. Was it to give the labourers less than they received at present? No. Their intentions were very kind—they intended to make them more comfortable, but somehow they meant to take something away from them. They must have something, somehow or other. Did they mean to lessen the relief that was now to be obtained? They dare not attempt to do it. They would not venture to carry into effect the recommendation of the Poor Law Com missioners, or to leave the people to feed upon potatoes and salt, or upon garbage like dogs.—(Cries of " Oh, oh I") Ile did not say they were going to do so—he merely put the case hypothetically; but he could tell them, instead of relief, it would add most enormously to the suffering of the land. The country gentlemen knew this as well as he did. The labourers belonged to the land, and if they took anything from them, how would they relieve the farmer or the landlord ?—(Hear, hear.) There might be some necromancy in it—some conjuration, or some cavil about words—but if they attempted to do such a thing, he would tell them that, instead of being relief, it would be the greatest curse the House could inflict—it would increase the dissensions that now existed in the agricultural districts tenfold. He could see nothing in the speech of the Noble Lord, except so far as it was intended to prevent them coming and asking for relief, and if that was what was intended, he must say it was a very good way to stop them ; but he could assure the Noble Lord he should like to hear a full explanation in what way it was intended to relieve the working classes, in the changes about to be made in the tithes and poor rates, partici'. larly In the former, which he could not comprehend. Sir R. PEEL said the speech of the Noble Lord had afforded much information, but it did notput them in possession of those facts which were necessary, before they could enter into details. He would only refer to the most prominent topics of the Noble Lord's speech ; and, in the first place, he was bound to say— looking at the great reduction that had been made in the expenditure—at least in that portion which ad mitted of it—(Loud cheers)—for there was a very great mass of expenditure, beyond reduction—(Cheers) — he would say, that after the reductions that had been made, and successfully matte, the reductions now stated by the Noble Lord were as much as could really be expected.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord considered himself in possession of a surplus of 2,600,000 L, and that surplus was accounted for in the following manner:—First, there was a surplus in the Exchequer of 1,500,0004 comparing the revenue of last year with the total expenditure. The Noble Lord calculated uposi 500,000/. as a prospective reduction, which, however, he could not rely upon, it being only temporary, depending upon the estimates of the year and liable to be affected in various ways. Still there was a saving of 500,0001. in this year. The other item constituting the total sum was the 600,0001. upon tea. He could not see with what certainty an increase of the revenue to thatamount was to be expected. The Noble Lord said it was by throwing upon the market 9,000,0001b5. of tea instead of 8,000,0001b5, but was the Noble Lord satisfied that the public would take these 9,000,0001b5. ? The public might expect that, in consequence of the measures past last session, there would be considerable reduction in the price of tea, and they would not be satisfied unless such a reduction took place. They expected a reduction of price corresponding with a reduction of duty. The Noble Lord calculated that he could repeal taxes to the amount of 1,200,0001., including the 800,0001. which was to provide for the interest on the loan granted to the West India proprietors. He wished to ask the Noble Lord whether there were not other items to be provided for corresponding with this 800,0004, and he particularly alluded to the grant of 1,000,000/. that was past last year for the clergy of Ireland. There was no reference made to this in the Noble Lord's speech, nor was there any permanent provision made for it although it was founded upon a vote of this House. The Noble Lord, in his opinion, was right in re fusing to admit any further reductions than the 1,200,000!. in his (Sir R. Peel's) view of the case, for the reduction would not be consistent with the maintenance of public credit. He would give no opinion of the nature of the taxes that ought to be removed. He deeply regretted that the Noble Lord proprosed no remission of taxation affecting the agricultural interest. No part of the present remission would directly affect the agriculturist—no doubt it would be an indirect relief to him. But when he considered the decided proof of agricul tural distress which had been established before Commit. tees of that House, and when he saw the willing sub mission of the agriculturist to the law—when he read the King's speech, admittir.g the distress they suffered, and which, at the same time severely deprecated excitement and disobedience to the law, he could not but lament that th practical result was, that the obedient party, namel the agricultural party, was to receive no relief, bt that the party who had manifested a disposition Oa resist evade the law, was to receive all the relief. At the same time, supposing 1,200,000/. to be all that could be remitted, there could not but be a difficulty in determining in what mode the rel , "` suld best be afforded to the agriculturist; still, if effectual relief could be afforded to any party, the agri cultural party was the most entitled to it. He would not consent to relieve the agricultural interest at the expense of the public credit ; but if a certain sum could be reduced, the first claim upon that reduction was that of the agricultural party. With re gard to any proposition respecting the tithes in lre'and, his Majesty's recommendation was, that such adjustment should take place affecting all classes as it would benefit without producing any injury to any class of his subjects. If in Ireland no adjustment of tithes should be attempted that should not be consistent with the rights of property, which it was the duty of the House to preserve, he hoped even the Honourable Member for Old. ham would be of opinion that no commutation of tithes in this tranquil country should be made, that would at all break in upon the rights of property. He had voted for the principle of commutation, and he could see no argument against that commutation, provided the House could see its way clearly to remove an oppression without doing injustice. Did not the Noble Lord know, that in many parts of this coun try contentment prevailed with respect to tithes ? He did not mean to say that they would not be glad to be relieved from them, but they feared the consequence of commutation would be that they would be placed under a harder task-master ; but with respect to the occupying tenants, he did not think commu tation could relieve them. When did the Noble Lord expect any well adjusted system would be brought to operate upon the agricultural districts? The pressure of the poor laws was as great in towns as in villages.—(Cries of " No," and "Hear.") He repeated that in manufacturing towns, in periods of commercial distress, the burden of the poor laws was as great as in villages. If any benefit was to be derived from a new system, it should be equal both to commercial and agricultural districts. The Noble Lord had said nothing in the course of his speech with respect to a very slight alleviation of the burden to which lands were subjected, to which he had formerly adverted. — (Hear, hear.) He hoped the Noble Lord intended to ad ' here to his promise, and go as far as he could respecting the surcharges upon horses employed for agricultural purposes, and give them substantial relief by removing the tax altogether, that is, if the horses were employed for agricultural purposes alone. He did not wish to put towns in opposition to vil lages, because he thought, by promoting the prosperity of the one, they would advance that of the other—(Hear, hear) --but he did hope the Noble Lord would find some means for alleviating that distress which had been admitted in his Ma. jesty's speech, and that this session would not be allowed to pass without the Noble Lord suggesting some measure fully adequate Ito that purpose. Lord A LTHORP said, as he had stated before, he would again say that at the end of last session, before any of the circumstances to which the Hon. Gentleman had just alluded had been mentioned, he had given him intimation that if the revenue should furnish him with the means, he was bound to repeal those taxes.—(Hear, hear.) He would say one word with respect to what he said at that time, that great pecuniary loss and inconvenience had occurred in the collection of the tithes, but in many instances the occupiers of the lands compromised and actually paid a larger amount than that to which they were liable. Mr. O'CONNELL said of the 1,200,0001. to be reduced, Ireland was not to be relieved one farthing—(Hear, hear, hear)—but the Noble Lord had some plan in store for Ireland; that plan was that Ireland was to pay as much as it did at present, and to be relieved from the balance and diffe rence.—(Laughter.) What, did the Noble Lord think that he was paying the Irish people a compliment, by telling them they woul.l be relieved, while they would be made to pay as much money as they did before? Talk of blunders, in. deed, this was an Irish mode of giving relief.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord had some schemes in his mind for the relief of Ireland, which he (Mr. O'C.) was afraid would turn out to be like the story told of the Irishmen who had his bag of potatoes to get home—he put them on his horse, but as he could not carry them, he then took them on his own back. So it was now to be—the burden was to be taken from the back of one, and put on that of another, or perhaps it was only to be moved a little further up on the shoulders of the same horse.—(Cheers.) Although some vexatious modes of raising the tithes had been removed, the poor payers had been put in a worse situation, for before the Act of last session the clergyman could only seize his one tenth. By thlt Act the landlord who stow paid the tithes, had the other nine -tenths, which he could seize upon for the same tithes as the. other. On that ground he did not think the Commutation would do any thing for England. Sure he was, it had not done so for Ireland. What was the statement of the Noble ,Lord as regarded the reduction of taxation ? Why, it all amounted to a mere peddling sum of twelve hundred thousand pounds. What was that to do towards relieving the country ? Would that do any thing, even for the people of the towns? But then came to be considered the state of the agriculturists. Did any one deny that they were suffering in England? Could any one deny that they were doing so in Ireland 2—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If the Noble Lord wished to re lieve the country—to reliave all classes —let him turn to the debt, let him reduce the interest upon it from 3 to 21 per cent , and by that he would at once save 4 1 1 millions. It might be said that that would not be accordant with public faith, but he contended that it would be no violation of it whatever, and the people were entitled to it. He protested against the species of relief held out to Ireland; indeed he might say he protested against the whole of the Noble Lord's statement, for it did not go far enough for him. Let the Noble Lord at once take off the four millirms and a half, and then he might do justice to all classes, by reducing the house and win dow tax, the malt tax, and others. Mr. HUME said he did not intend to trouble the House, and would not have done so, had it not been for the extraordinary speech of the Right Hon. Baronet below (Sir R. Peel). First of all he would touch upon the statements made by the Noble Lord—they were plain enough. No person could mistake his meaning. The house seemed to cheer at the paltry reduction of 500,000/.—(Hear, hear) —and the Hon. Baronet said that that was quite enough. Now, how stood the case ? Last year, the estimates were 14,600,0001., and this year they were to be reduced to 14,100,0001. That was all the paltry reduction offered to the peeple. When the Noble Lord spoke of the year 1792 he (Mr. Hume) pricked up his ears, but it was only to be miserably disappointed. Some comparisons were drawn between that year and the present ; but was the House aware that the whole sum required to be taken for the payment of offices they were now called upon to pay, was then only 4,800,0001., but in the present year more than three times theamount was required ? Were the people of England to to remain qui e t un d er t h at—wou ld t h ey su ff er th e w i n d ow tax to continue ? H e f or one h ope d th ey wou ld no t , a t a ll events be hoped they wou ld not cease to pe ti t i on, an d exer t them selves Whkyee the utmost, until thearm they stabe eyolbistnamineen. Why should relief.h He would take, for am y ear should the people of I re l an d b e su b jec t t o the payment of 1,500,000/. f or the support of that establishment ?— ( Hear, h p up itwatsnabtecawuhsieehthewGasovehronsmtiele t nt oweredeter minedthege . ) to neral feeling of the country, the Church Establishment — (Hear, hear)—and in order to do that, they were obliged to keep a garrison in Ireland the same as if she was a subjugated and conquered country. The House and the Government might save to the public no less a sum than 900,0001., if they would only treat Ireland as she ought to be treated, and abolish the Church Establishment, except so far as it was necessary for the wants of the people. If that was done, there would then be an ample fund out of which the loss occasioned to the revenue from the reduction of the house and window taxes might be made good. He saw, however, very plain how the thing stood; there was a show of doing a great deal, but very little was done. In his opinion, the statements of the Noble Lord were altogether unsatisfac tory and not such as the country had a right to expect. From a statement which he had of the Noble Lord's, made in the course of last session, it appeared that the amount of the reduction of the house and window duty either in January or June last was 2,500,0001. He would now come to the Hon. Baronet—he complained that Govern ment had not attended to the landed interest.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to that he must say that the prop°. sition of the Noble Lord was most unfair and extravagant. The Noble Lord had said that the landed interest was sorely oppressed by this and that exaction. Now what was the situ tuation of the landed interest ? (Hear, hear, hear.) Why, they had a monopoly at the present moment of the food of the country.—(Hear.) This was destroying and ruining the farmer, and, in consequence of the manner in which the. concerns of the country were carried on, the currency of the country was diminished in order to supply deficiencies by which the whole commercial system of the country was disarranged. They were relieved the other day from insurance, and what right had the landed interest more than any other to obtain such ad vantages ? He had often heard a great deal said of liberty and equality. but he wished to applythe words in their proper meaning, which was the administration of property. As used now they were outraged. Through the country the landed interest enjoyed a monopoly of butter, cheese, bacon, cattle—(Loud laughter)—and even the diminutive article of eggs. They were the favoured few ; all the others were their serfs, labouring for them. He would appeal to the Noble Lord not to attend so much to that interest; if he did, he would be doing an injus tice. He (Mr. Hume) would put it to the Hon. Baronet and the House, whether it was fair to afford any farther relief ? Regarding the subject of tithes, he would say that they were the first bar and impediment to the improvement of land, by preventing the outlay of surplus capital. No measure was more useful than the commutation of tithes, and he hoped that no exertions would be omitted to secure it as soon as possible. He would ask the Honourable Member for Oldham, who he had no doubt took great pleasure in his cabbage-garden, whether he should like a head of cabbage, or a head of celery, or a bunch of turnips, to be taken from its produce? He was sorry that he had not heard an expression of approbation on the subject of the commutation of tithes ; and he should be much surprised if the Right Hon. Baronet could show him a petition from any county in England, extensively signed, praying for - no com mutation of tithes. Let Scotland be looked to, and they would find that capital was applied, and a corresponding improvement was the result, in a double and treble degree; while land lay waste in England, on account of the injurious operation of tithes ; in fact, every inch of ground was improved in Scotland by the surplus capital that was laid out. He differed from him on the subject of poor laws ; they were good in principle, but the application was attended with vicious effects. Remove the cause of he degradation of the lower classes by placing them in a better condition; and a general benefit would result to every grade in society, landlords as well as others. He did not know whether it was consistent with the views of the Noble Lord to take from one class and give to an other. He hoped that nothing would prevent the Noble Lord from coming down to that House with a measure for a reformed system of poor laws ; and he trusted that nothing would in duce the Right Hon. Baronet to threw any difficulties in the way of such a measure, as the carrying through the great work of a reformation in the poor laws. There was one observation of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin which he particu'arly wished to notice before he sat down. The Hon. and Learned Member had stated that the landed proprietors had had their incomes reduced one-third, while the fund-holders received the full amount of their incomes. But did not the Hon. and Learned Member know that the Government securities had been reduced in the same proportion. The Ministers had done it fairly, and deserved credit for it, and yet the man who formerly received five pounds, received now only three pounds ten shillings ? Was not that, he would ask, a reduction equal to any reduction that had taken place in the rents? • He (Mr. Hume) was anxious to give landholders and fundholders and all parties fair play. The landlordtook his chance in the market forthe value of his land, and the fundholder also took his chance in the market. It was unfair, then, to say that one party had been ag grieved at the expense of another. He (Mr. Hume) thought that no monopoly should be kept up which gave an advantage to the landed interest. If the case was fairly considered, it must be admitted that the landed interest was the one most favoured by law.—(Hear.) The landed proprietor by law could make him (Mr. Hume) pay eightpcnce for his loaf of bread instead of sixpence. He called upon the Right Hon. Baronet not to pro reed further in favour of the interests of that class; let him be prepared by next month to do an act of justice to the country that would be of more advantage than all the rest—the repeal of the odious corn laws.—(Hear.) He must now return to the Noble Lord. He was very much disappointed that he did not intend to make very considerable changes in the commercial relations of this country. With respect to Bor deaux, within the last week, it had been pointed out that the country laboured under great disadvantages, from the restrictive Acts which had been passed at different times, relative to the exportation of wines, &c. (Hear, hear, hear.) Perhaps the Noble Lord would have no objection to lay on the table of the House a copy of the convention between France and England.—(Hear, hear.) He presumed there could be no objection to that course, particularly as the commissioners who had been appointed had made their reports, and the Chambers of France had introduced a bill to remove some, though a small number, of the objections which had existed to the com mercial intercourse between the two countries. During the last twelvemonths the commercial affairs in the two countries had become much changed, and there was a more general de. sire to extend their commercial intercourse. He had there fore expected that the Noble Lord would to-night have entered into some details upon that subject. He also had expected that the Noble Lord would have proposed to reduce the duties on the cheaper and weaker wines, and to have placed an ad valorem duty upon them. There were millions of gallons of Moselle wines at this moment unsold, and if the ports of England were opened, every man that pleased might be able to drink his wine at Is. per bottle.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He was prepared to prove that statement. Let those who chose to drink the stronger and more expensive wines do so, but let the humbler classes have the cheaper wines, at Is. per bottle.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He had also expected that the Noble Lord would have proposed some alteration in the timber duties—(Hear, hear)—for he could see no sea son why 108 should be levied on one description of timber, and 21s. 15s. on another, except it was to uphold the old but fallacious doctrine, that it was to give protection to the colonies. He had always submitted that without any difficulty if any timing was to be done with the corn laws, there would be no difficulty in making a fixed duty. If the Noble Lord could only b e induced to c h a nge the corn laws to a fixed state, he wa s not fastidious a b o ut the duty ; he would be willing to supp ort him in such a Propos ition. Why should not the Noble Lord have put a duty of six or seven shillings on every quarter, and take off the window tax ?—( Hear, hear.) If he would do that it would give more satisfaction. At present all the ad vantage the Noble Lord said would go to the landed interest, but he denied that it damaged the lan dholder and damaged the occupiers. The Honourable B aronet had said what hope could the occupiers have of relief? Wh y what ho pe would they have? It was in favour of the occupiers that he (Mr. Hume) had always contended that the system was bad. The various other items of duty appeared to him to have been sadly neglected. — (Hear. hear.) Instead of re. lieving articles that were almost prohibited, and thereby increasing the revenues by the great additional reduc tion of taxation on them, they had been entirely overlooked. It was quite a mistaken notion to entertain, that the landed property in this country was the most valuable. It was highly valuable, but what made it so ? Why the manufactures of the country, and in proportion as the intercourse in commercial changes was encouraged, and the comforts of the people at large consulted, so would society be the more enabled to buy meat, butter, eggs, and 10 on, and in that way would the value of land be increased, and both the public and private interests of landowners promoted. The Noble Lord would have to make a greater reduction—he must relieve first and at once from the window tax, and, as soon as might be, give as much more relief as possible. The Marquis of CHANDOS could only say that, in advo cating the agricultural interests, he wished for no monopoly whatever ; but all he contended for was, that in giving relief to other classes, relief ought likewise to be extended to the landowners, who were unable to keep their lands, or do justice to the soil.—(Hear.) He congratulated all those who had been relieved from taxes in the last year, and would vote for the relief that was intended to be granted in the present session ; but he trusted that those who were benefited would not be jealous of the landowners, or averse to their partici pating in the common advantages. He would repeat, that in advocating the landed interests he did not consider that he was advocating any monopoly : he was only speaking for the in terests of those classes whose distresses were not mitigated by any relief that as yet had been extended to other classes. He should bring forward this question at an early day, and after the words which Ministers had put into his Majesty's mouth, in the speech from the throne, he was surprised that the Noble Lord in his financial statement had said not one word in favour of the agricultural classes.--(Hear, hear.) Mr. C. FERGUSSON thought that the window tax might be made more productive by a more equal assessment and a better mode of collecting. The house tax, he believed, had never weighed on the poorer classes, and it had never affect ed any persons who might be considered in a condition of want. He would rather that Ministers should have taken off a portion of the malt tax, or have abolished the residue of the soap duty. He never could assent to the proposition of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, to take off taxes upon a prin ciple of mortgaging the revenues of the Church. He would enter his protest as strongly against any changes of the corn laws; and he contended that the Honourable Member for Middlesex, in his arguments, had proved that by removing the corn laws, the price of corn would be raised abroad, and not be reduced at home. One party would be, there fore, injured, without the other being benefitted. He pro tested against the attempts that had been made in the metro polis to overawe the Government on the subject of the as sessed taxes. He trusted that the Noble Lord would con sider whether relief could not be afforded to the landed inte rests. He was ready to meet the ,question of the corn laws, and he would prove, that if they were repealed, the poor, in stead of profiting, would be deprived of employment.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh !" and laughter.—(Five hundred thousand agricultural labourers would be thrown on the poor rates, without mitigating the condition of the farmer on whom the burden would fall. The agricultural interests had been pecu liarly oppressed and least favoured.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") The Hor.ourable Member for Middlesex exclaimed " Oh, oh," but, " Oh, oh" was no argument.—(Laughter.) He (Mr. Hume) was in the habit of telling his constituents that if the corn laws were removed bread would be cheap—and he at the same time told the agriculturists not to be alarmed, for the re peal of the law would not make bread cheaper in the least. He believed lie could understand the Hon. Member as well as he could understand himself. What did the Hon. Member mean by talking of monopoly when 400,000 quarters of foreign corn had been imported last year, and the average duty was less than six shillings, when the Hon. Member for Middlesex had proposed that the duty should be ten shillings a quarter ? Mr. HUME—I am always ready to answer what I say.— (Loud laughter.) lam always ready to answer for what I say.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member then disclaimed the interpretation put on his words by the Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright. Mr. C. FERGUSSON Explained. _ _ Sir S. WHALLEY was happy to hear from the Noble Lord of the prosperous state of the finances, and he trusted that he would not refuse to the people the modicum of relief demanded of him. The agricultural interests paid no taxes whatever — (Laughter)—with the exception of the malt tax, which was partly paid by the other interests of the country. The poor laws pressed equally on the commercial and the agricultural inte rests, and any alteration of the poor laws would be the reverse of beneficial to the poor, except as far as the administration of them by the Magistracy was concerned. He contended that the window tax ought to be repealed. That tax was more prejudicial to the poor than any other, and the people had a right to expect its repeal from what had fallen from the Noble Lord in the last session. The country would not view the Noble Lord's relief as a boon, but as a tardy and compulsory concession. The Hon. Member for Worcester (query, Kirk cudbright) had talked of the agitation that had prevailed in towns on the subject of the assessed taxes, but had he forgotten the agitation of the agricultural districts upon the subject of tithes, with the fires to which the poor were urged by the farmers themselves ?—(Cries of " No, no," from all parts of the House.) by people had been so frequently disappointed in their hopes by that House, which had placed itself so entirely under the control of Ministers, that they had withdrawn from their representatives all confidence and respect. The people would rather repose confidence in his Majesty or his Majesty's Ministers ; and no House of Commons had ever existed so totally unhonoured with the confidence of the people. Sir ITYRRELL rose to repel the assertion made by the Hon. Member for Marylebone respecting the farmers having insti gated the poor to incendiarism.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright had said that Ministers should not be induced to takeoff taxes by intimidation. . . Mr. C. FERGUSSON explained—The agricultural interest had good and deep cause to complain of the preference which his Majesty's Ministers had shown to the commercial interests in the distribution of that relief which they were able to give to the country. If he was not greatly mistaken, there were forty or fifty articles of commerce which had a protection of forty or fifty per cent., while the protection afforded to the agricultural Interest did not amount to more than ten per cent. He could only say that Parliament, by carrying into effect a scheme which had been stated by the Noble Lord, would be acting with great injustice to the agricultural interest. They did not wish for any unfair or undue preference or protection; they were willing to bear their fair proportion of thepublic bur dens. The Hon. Member for Middlesex ought to come pre. pared with returns which would show to the House the charges which were borne by the different classes of the community. It should in discussing questions of this kind always be borne in mind that there were various and heavy burdens of a local na ture exclusively pressing upon the land, as road rates, poor rates, church rates, &c., the pressure of which on the agricul. tural interest should always be carefully considered in the dis tribution of relief from taxation which the financial state of the country would from time to time enable the country to make. The Hon. Member concluded by urgently pressing upon the Government the necessity of affording immediate relief to the owners and occupiers of land. Mr. BENETT did not believe there was any combination among the agricultural labourers, and, though the burnings had been numerous, these were not the result of any combination among them. Though the farmers made no resistance to the payment of tithes, but paid their taxes cheerfully, they ought, nevertheless, to be relieved from some part of them. With re spect to the house tax, he considered it one of the very best of taxes. It was, in point of fact, a property tax. If there were any unfairness in the valuation of houses with a view to this tax, that defect ought to be remedied. He by no means agreed, however, with the outcry made upon the apparent inequality of the valuation of the houses of tradesmen and the mansions of the aristocracy and opulent commoners. The value of a house was not to be estimated by its ;mime cost; its value was what it would let for.—(Hear, hear.) The house tax was very easily assessed, and, if not strictly speaking a property tax, came very near a property tax. If the house tax was to be assessed upon large houses in the country according to their value, as estimated by the cost of building them, they would remain untenanted. If the house tax were to be levied on this principle, the consequence would be that gentlemen would be driven from their country houses. They knew that everything was done by combination,and that nothing could be done with out it. A little more combination amongst landlords and their tenants against the taking off the house tax might be beneficial. The tendency, then, of the house tax was to compel gentlemen to reside in the country, and they were thus instrumental in promoting the landed interests. The repeal of the house tax was indirectly injurious to the landed interest.—(Hear, hear.) He was not a little surprised, however, at the motive by:which the Noble Lord pref,ssed to be actuated in the repeal of this tax. It was certainly strange that the Noble Lord should admit that he was induced to accede to such a mea sure, not because the tax was oppressive, but because it was unpopular, and that it excited great clamour. All taxes were bad, and, with reference to this abstract proposition, repealthetili he S of the house tax might be said to be a de sirable object. could not but regret that some part o f this relief had not een extended to the landed interest. He contended that the shop keepers were not entitled to this relief, for in point of fact the house tax was not paid by them, but by their customers. To a property tax we must come sooner or later, and, this being so, the sooner we came to it the better. yastasexled scuopupldosiinnganity, Colonel EVANS began by observing that the Hon. Member who had just sat down had stated that the house tax was the same as a property tax. Did the Hon. Member mean seriously however, to be a property tax, he (Colonel Evans) objected to it because it was unequally levied. The houses of the s t ho r i na doa this he s vmiosefer ground rhhoee w uan e :v r dde e . let wealthy d e a rhweea. were objected o l H e s almost t o almost(extortion,mtor.t hße euntnae txt otw. said dt de. tahrt that taht m e wa a ar n al. tofai fair sense contend o f tl t l h a that the wer d h h o e u s e e a t e a d x a as r e n p o e w r t that s ) ) he (Colonel rents m might fall s o p : M ser i v 'e ed s The speech of the Honourable Member was one of the Honourablereasconable m ag e r m ic b u e lt r ur h a a l d monopolies, whether in agriculture or commerce, were bad. mThoset and yet landlords not be losers. He (Colonel Evans) believed it to be impossible that bread might fall in price, and yet landlords be the gainers. So long as we had so many mo nopolies we should see this clashing between the agricultural and commercial interests. He (Colonel Evans) on this ground contended that there ought to be a general revision of our sys tem of taxation. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had observed that the poor rates pressed more heavily on the agri ' cultural classes than on the town population. He, however, be lieved that, on a full examination of the subject, the facts would not bear the Right Hon. Baronet's statement. It would be found that the towns paid as much, or more, to the poor rates as the country. He (Cot. Evans) objected to the plan of the Noble Lord because, while he removed half the tax, he retained all the machinery. That was one objection which he felt to it. He had another objection to it. He thought that, by an equi. table adjustment, which he would presently suggest, the tax might have been taken off'. The legacy duty fell wholly on ter tonal property. Let a corresponding tax be put on real pro perty, and then the Noble Lord might get rid of the house am window tax altogether and at once. The Noble Lord had spoken of the means which had been resorted to for the purpose of in fluencing the Government, and of the intimidation which been attempted. This argument he (CoL Evans) thot the very last which ought to be mentioned in this House, that what was called the Reformed Parliament had tained entirely by what was done out of doors. Befa dowh he would recall the Noble 'Lord's recollectu speeches and votes before he came into office, and coot' dressed to the House. no and Mr. DUNCOMBE regretted that there was l of some of the taxes pressing upon ment of any re pea was in favor cultural interest. All the relief propose— slat the and manufacturing interests. It was with the plans he now proposed, and the arguments he the commercial and manufacturing interests were in unexampled prosperity, and yet the relief was sate exampled distress and difficulty, and yet no relief at afforded to them. The Noble Lord ou g ht to have i regard to the opinion which was implie d in the vote !I been given on the malt tax, although the N oble Lord duced the House to reverse that vote. He di d not be' Milisters were aware of the distress and difficultii landed interests. The pressure had fallen m ost heavil h middle classes of landowners—t h e proprietors of t, farms of about two hundred acres—farms which had, most part, been inherited from their ancestors. This portant and valuable set of men were entirely r uined. increasing pressure on the agricultural intere sts this men had gradually s un k from their state till they at that degree of d e p ress ion and ruin in which th e y found to be. But he would not press further this pals ject. He would not sa y mor e than that it was the P ar' duty of this House to a tt en d to the agricultural in ter interest which was the b as i s o f all the other intere s country. It was the duty of the House, indeed, to every interest, but particularly, and above all oth ers, favour, while the agricultural inte rests were in a landed interest. Colonel TORRENS would not detain the Commi t any financial details on the commercial policy of the Some doctrines, however, had been laid down so untin principle and so mischievous in practice that he taut the attention of the House for a few minu tes whil. plained their fallacy and unsoundness. He w as surPl hear it stated by the Hon. Members for Oldham and T; that no relief would be afforded to the agricultural int a commutation of tithes. The commutation of tith , be equivalent to the removal of a tax on production, ' open a large field of speculation and enterprise to t cultural interests. A greater amount of cal itsl wet. consequence be applied to the cultivation of the soup her. duce of it would be augmented in a corresponding pportioi and more, consequently, would have to be divided ante' proprietors of the soil than at present. The titheowne not get less, and the landowner would get more. It ' said that the proposed reduction of taxation would relief to the land. What would the landed proprieti There were no direct taxes affecting the land. No cell fore, could be afforded to the landowner by any repeal taxes. The Noble Lord (A lthor p ) proposed to relievi by the only means by which the land could be rebel proposed to take off the taxes locally affecting the lane said by the Hon. Member for Tamworth, that even in the poor laws would not relieve the land. Hi Torrens) was of opinion that such a measurewould I tainly relieve the land. A measure by which the Pant be converted into an efficient labourer, and by wi money now paid in the shape of poar rates should be the reward of useful labour, must increase the genera production, whilst it diminished the charges upon it, sequently, in a double sense, increase the profits of owner. It had appeared to him necessary to corn errors, to show the unsoundness of the principles they were grounded, and the mischievous consem which they led. He congratulated the Government course it was pursuing, and anticipated the happiest from the proposed equitable commutation of the ti' reform of the poor laws. Mr. D. W. HARVEY said that the Noble Lord hi more political dexterity than sound political wisdo] course he had taken. The Noble Lord had fowl, might he called the Westminster Races, and had twelve hundred thousand pounds he had to dispose contended for at them. He bed thrown this sum waters of contention, and while the opposing part struggling for it, the Noble Lord congratulated hi being half through the session. He was not n( to offer any opinion as to the relative claims of parties. But he would observe, that there was which had no advocates, which had no sympathy in th; and that was the party of the people. Instead of gi relief to the people, the Government had actually th them a new tax of 600,0001. This was effected by ' the tea tax, by means of the graduated scale of duties, the Government, as he had shown last session, had hundred thousand pounds out of the pockets of the and lower classes, the great consumers of tea, id to lux! • Wh l one of the most essential articles of suppo rt would reserve himself for the considerationof the agri question. The Noble Lord could not give moreeffectr to the people, nor show any more practica l sympathY than by taking the duty off malt, and imposing a tax Lord MORPETH rose, and observed, that if they' be a reduction of taxation it ought to be co nsidered quarter such a reduction would afford the grea test ri contribute most to the general welfare of the co untry. cpution, such an object would be best accomplished b' ing the taxes on the raw materials. By adopting th i policy greater facilities would be afforded for produi demand for labour would be increased, and the mann }, interests rendered mare prosperous. He (Lord Worpeth not help thinking that the most efficient relief wrii;" be given to the country would be by an alteration in laws.—(Hear, hear.) If, however, the Noble Lord had cane to the determination to remit a portioi taxes, he (Lord Morpeth) trusted the subject would be • considered before any steps were taken for that purpos , ar yet the repeal of the house tax had not eeen virtually on, and before the actual repeal of this tax should take (Lord Morpeth) hoped the Noble Lord would, previous coming to any resolution on this subject, direct his sere tention to those taxes which pressed most heavily or dustry of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Such a procedure would be most conducive to the genera perity of the country, and would be, as well as a mess , expediency and of general advantage, one of Na de l: numerous and important class of the people. I n therefore, of taxes he would urge upon the Noble lord pediency of removing those which pressed most sever the poor and operative classes. The question was then put, and the resolution agre ed The other resolutions having been agreed to, and tion put that the report be received, Mr. ROBINSON asked when the report of the Commissioners would be completed and ready for delb" Lord ALTHORP said (as we understood) that ti would be ready very soon. The report of supply was ordered to be received day next. CASE OF MR, SHEIL. Mr. GROTE brought up the report of the Select C. °' appointed to inquire into the charge against Mr. Sh eiL When the question was put that the report be laid ' table, it was followed by a general cry through the " Read, read," and " Order, order." The report was then read, and was as fol'ows : " The Committee of Privileges, to whom the Inn' complaint was referred arising out of a paragraph in miner newspaper, dated November 10, 1833, have agr, and do hereby submit to your Hon. House, the foli port: the ' paragraphrTeliiieort f a pee c i h n p q u u b e I s i t c i l o y n , d e p l i u v r e p r o e r d t ibnyg M a tt hew port Hill, Esq., Member of Parliament for the bn Hull, as follows : " It is impossible for those not actually in the i i o fy le nu n e e rcs e eeslsv a ae g rs ai y)' 'ns t know all the secret machinery by which votes are obt: navpn:utdkce voted war could egitsahii: egg a ttr p eee l d , av e te a br i yv , y n I Ministers and said, Don't bate one single atom of sonhpra ipstphwell t et to know )to n ewßr o this ahnnodd ill, or will for Ireland, I must be out all it be impossible for ,u 7 thw y ah m to an isspn t e o ea l ic, i es ve saai i ir n dy, lr vb e oec l t a e n au d ag: clause of it, sai ar Bi I d tdi c? t t h i n oet this i n : i o sha t er e fl h rirao o choose.'—(Cries replied,' . enyd ' t — o, (Cries of Name' and No.' an sider for a moment, can I do it ?—(` No,' Yes.') point for my consideration. I have a great respect one here; but if every one in the room was to hold up for it I would not do it. The secret is not my own. told it to me I would have said, Mark, I will keep secret as this—l will publish it to the world.' Bu t the Member, I put it in the power of the individual that declaration to know the gentleman who told me. " Your Committee, in entering on the delicate barrassing duty hnposed upon them, ascertained .Jl O Hill that, though he could not admit the entire of the above paragraph, as a report of what he iicly spoken at Hull, he nevertheless recollected publie:y charged an Irish Member of Parliament wits similar in nbstance to that which the paragrap!! The Irish Member so alluded to was Richard Lalor Sl M.P. for the county of Tipperary ; and Mr. Hill si charge to the best of his belief to have been substal follows : " That Mr. Shell made communications respecting Coercion Bill to persons connected with the Govern: others, with the intention thereby of promoting the I the Coercion Bill, and having a direct tendency to prod' effect, whilst his speeches and votes in the House werr to the defeat of the Coercion Bill " Such was the substance of the allegation into wl Committee proceeded to inquire. Two witnesses were, fare them at the suggestion of Mr. Hill, and others were abol examined, when Mr. Hill himself, finding the testimoi. heard very different from what he had expected, free) spontaneously made the ibllowing communicatior Committee : " ' That he had come to the conviction that against Mr. Sheil, of having directly or indirectly rated, or intended to communicate, to the Governm private opinions in opposition to those which he ex 7 the 1 - 10113. , of Commons had no foundation in fak such charge was not merely incapable of formal p) was, in his present sincere belief, totally and absoi.. founded ;--that he had originally been induced to mak t t'on of it in a hasty and unpremeditated speech, undr persuasion that he had received it on undeniable eyieb that, being now satisfied of the mistalw into whirl Linen, and convinced that the charge was wholly 'al Lt ere , eati,, ' e, ''P k a ge, 411 n E 0404, ch, Col, dise4.l , the (3,lrt, which bad ought 10° rune use, seeing bath been ob- bade- been For e he sat wld e i ion to his to , z trac t them 'late, e now a d- " I th e , limo, loot a Puts cl ose beror ° ,l t t t o i n Matt aa,D a nataautttetinrh: fated 1 inot i eof u tftahe n twughte c ita sroa e li 1 er: - .i. had o ' ll _l el ari wh i c h had Shei d had in - th e n. elieve that let o f the th e i r meal ily on the the sm all Hull d, for the ra cy. 5 most im- Ken, By the ci, e is eats ei , e i , d , la d a rrived , whi c i ' it l , Were p oll th, Mafia s ob- 'II be 1, Param that some erect, that gists ofd the n to f rom atte I„, ens, to the rata otee by cf 11, s it tee co untry. it , b e di f o unded ill la ust ent reat th e i ile he e x- trprise d to th, Tamworth to ki ntere sts by 1 -kai Gove hey w ould ( 0 1 1.0 1 de rat N' , lti '4l)j, A ny lio n. ou ch at th 111. 0 ... lief, Lrr:a:nal3;'whtrunenPhe:iotr:heuth irn t wwetl there- e cal :°vP i gut:ren r rvi il l ' iial'e-el?;11 . te ' , ti tiie al of direct ill th what be the land wed Hz I" th he „ Id. It was 10 11(0 10 I a reform (e (Colonel Pap by hi most cer. 'per would Sui t th ey w hich the Prob e /e paid aS 80, 0, ral mass of a nd ~. ;, and c on- the _.' r the lan d- In baps rent those he on which Co Wtas, [uences to li ttle ent on the ri d . a , l est re sults ile u su ithes, an d h' or, it th e : ad shonat tot t'l in self the h e Cnn nand what , t,-, q a k g i ven the h e e l e of, to be an t e "' a into th e I ka,„ trties were rlm 4 ;‘ , himself 01 1 ki h j :ow g oing v 1 et„. ' , these two 1., e , • one partythe'', ha t House , ‘vi,„' t a 4- ‘4 ;ly i n g any 4 11, ) thrown on ke g m eans ° C i 44, trti oh . , ;, by wh ich Ag in( r taken six i wi. e middling ~4 , 1 born It was Ih ri vat ;Ai : ;Airy. He , r ieultural 1 0 ( 1 1 . 41 , o ' l ll ;tual relief tai ii' „, r for them., u t ,,, t ,.' . on g Rh,: erein- was to tna r 0 I d in wh at ; c atti. , relief, aim in d etti 4 ' 1. In hi s Iti r. by Ted" - P r i e ,. , th e ', th e "( , Pc 'gai ns t° call ' •ittt, get h i , kr, 'ff the 'llditi ' , hat 1% kr b . „itte r ; ipo.l H' uneuei c in i (yofsos s : caspi i adyec o r)i i refeot.at il i tiu n fc , :oier e acttiltrpii t i:7 l ll: ° l.aseyse)i e , f t n h 'e e: , } u ncial 4 at lb de f a " Da rt , %,, 0. . Ikit • I '' h i ,, A . ow l e: sl r e d ret n 1 t t i I :ensurehhoaPP' repeat, :atnr : :::::- by no vh , i t !rely' upo n te Mend,,,.. ee d to.. ai `vt the 0 1es ' ot i t,,,, 4 411 h 11% s, - Poor L ilt illt eßic very L rt Part of the ter ' '• it tstl b oth, i on 14°P. 3, v 1 51 Qtl e , k r. Ne te:v :on gaitte a . , At i ... L Nte r u s e upon f Le a ,,,! How e ° Th;" ( opthe ee , a ace, matter of grei, I) the P a- With 1 , reed uP °ll ' c 04,1 [lTeowing re - kik" ( th e , hz rum part of '1'14 4 ew Haven - C,,1, b o rough o f ti w is tz r,, /lous e to s , ti 'tarried. I Witt e , 3r . tO e r. • 1 1 1 1 a s , r), ' that a n xAlti i , ains4 eV e° , Pla ced t, went t`' k r. f that OW , aii wil 1." What , ' Pkt,ti r II k id I , he ,' , e • lAr k , t • O et , tit li g altogether' j a if t s tci is tdni , 3°- ''' ki th , for ev er) the (N " m his hand t c he y r If he had . .."ga ' L. ' pnO such ' '' n o , :if 1 panic' 1 I :til e d who made' ' 44 'rrl , r ve nal ~ , an d etn' ' th e fro '''llr, m ' acou ra l rY vali s !t o pu b. h igh! d ha ve , t hat th cort tl V . • Q bti , k aritt ' fil er,, ta:shdtnateeshttielivealPiltrYteils , ' ,• , . oj ‘,, ll : l' fi j s u ttt uti i i . l ,4 3 l3 ij Intent, an of . rli,iry O passing w ont; ' j Al, es r : e r°d h e c i a c u i h C i de directed t U" - " h b 31. t ....,;: , i 1 : 4' , : ?; a e L4): l' ,. "'W r ra ., ed t i ) a n7a U l t r e W t°- At e A I . ' ';'' badt::Eli freely a 0; m to ti e ;bap , , i ' l act b his cba .14 0 Di commur Illv e d, ,ment, a' I Y ass d ' I. ;pressed • • • Ord in act; th s, • p r oof, b e ' ' ~,, ° llbe r l u tely u 0 ', t il ' stai make Me n- ;' „9 re, ler a 0 11 3 ' lat h, 'l,it .. 4 )ii df,..pce ; _.,, , 4 8 , ich he had untrue' 14 ' • •ik•