The Sun. — London, England, 1825-02-15 00:00:00

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A ‘Vaste-book and Cash-book, Invoice-book and Sales book, Bill-book, Journal, and Ledger ; adapted to the Third Price 12s. 6d.j SUN. although the number of men to be voted was the sane as last year, still there was an addition to the change, the cause of which he would briefly explain. A charge had been made last year in the mode of victualling the Navy, by which a better quality of food was supplied to the seamen, and their comforts were greatly increased. Banyan-days (that is, days when no animal food was allowed) were entirely abolished, and beef and pork substituted for them. This occasioned a slight addition to the charges. A reduction had been made in the quantity of ardent spirits formerly allowed, which had been, in the opinion of all naval men, considerably more than was necessary. The large allowance of grog was the source of quarrels and insubordination, and consequently rendered it incumbent to multiply punishments. In order, however, that the seamen might have no reason for complaining, the amount saved by diminishing their grog was paid to them in the shape of increased wages. This was about 2s. per month to each man, of the warrant and petty officers, but there was no increase of wages with the Commissioned and superior Offi cers, being a saving on the supply of ardent spirits, it would add nothing to the charges. There was another improve ment, in authorizing the issue of a small advance of pay to the seamen when on foreign stations. But this could not be done, except by authority of the House, and it would make an increase of two shillings per month. The rise in the price of provisions would add another shilling, making in all three shillings per month each man. The next item of wear and tear of ships require the additional allowance of 2s. per month. Several articles of naval stores were considerably risen in price, particularly iron, which had increased 100 per cent. The charge for cordage was the sane as last year.—Not apprehending any objections, and reserving to him self the privilege of explanation, he should move the first Resolution, That 29,000 men (including 9,000 men for the marines) be voted for the thirteen lunar months after the Ist January, 1826. • Sir J. YORKE said, that with respect to the change in the mode of victualling the Navy, he should like to hear from the Gallant Officer on the second bench (Sir George Cockburn) what advantage had resulted to the Navy substituting some thing called tea (which was in fact only clover dust), at the rate of 2s. 9d. per pound for grog ? • The Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Clerk) might rest assured that the broils amongst the sailors would not be put an end to by this diminution of the allowance of grog. He had hoped that in giving up the grog a better sub stitute would have been furnished without any additional charge to the Exchequer. Sir G. COCKBIJRN said, that from every quarter of the world the Officers of the Navy were sending home praises of the change which had been made in • the victualling of the navy.—( Hear. hear I)—The Gallant OfliCer had made a mis take in supposing that tea was a substitute for grog ; they were independent of each other.—(llear!)—The granting part of the pay on foreign stations had corrected an evil which he and other officers felt to be very great. Sailors going on shore in a foreign port without any money, were exposed to tempta tions, and frequently deserted in consequence. Since the pocket-money was given in the place of grog, no desertions took place. The abolition of banyan-days was another im provement. Formerly flour was given instead of beef. The allowance should have been 61bs. of beef ; instead of that only 4lbs. were given, the other 2lbs. were made up in flour. The whole of our Naval system was considerably improved, and he could not understand the ground of the Gallant Officers's objections. Sir I. COFFIN defended the diminishing the allowance of grog, which, when so copiously supplied, was the cause of constant quarrels. It was made up for by increased wages, and tea and cocoa were added. Sir J. YORKE said, that be had been completely misun derstood, as he did not make ally objections, but only asked for an explanation, in order that he might know how the thing worked. Sir I. COFFIN said, that he understood the calling tea brick-dust (no, he believe it was clover-dust), to be an ob jection. _ _ _ Mr. HUM E expressed his satisfaction to hear the gallant Officer (Sir G. Cockburn), admit at last that desertion was an evil, which he had been in the habit of asserting was almost unknown. The whole of the present naval system was objec tionable on the ground of its not holding Out inducements to sailors to volunteer. He hoped that the alterations which had hcen made would prove serviceable to the' Navy. The pay of the Navy ought, however, to be greatly increased, for it was wholly inadequate to the wants and merits of the men. The pay was indeed so inadequate as to be one great cause of the de sertions into foreign service: it should be augmented. He was glad to learn that the seamen were to be supplied with a por tion of their wages whilst on foreign stations. It often happen ed that they were absent eight or ten years without receiving a single shilling, except what they got from the purrs:.;-s. He hailed this change as the beginning of a more compl±te and efficient one, and trusted that it would not cease until that great est of all evils, impressment was done away. The Resolution was put and carried. Sir G. CLERK moved a second resolution,—That 923,650/. be granted for paying the wages, (at ttie rate of 2/. 9s. per month each), of the before-voted 29,000 men, After a few words from Mr. Hum E, Sir L COrF IN, and Sir J.Yo 'IKE, the resolution was carried. The next vote was for a grant of 603,2001. for victualling the same number of men.—Agreed to, The next was a grant of 320,4501. for the wear and tear of the fleet. Mr. HUM E objected to the vote, because the Estimate gave the House no data upon which an opinion of its correctness could be formed. He objected to the calculation being made per man, and submitted that for the future, the lion. Baronet shoUld take the expellee upon a number of ships employed in the service of the year. Sir G. COCKBURN said, that the estimate was made upon the average number of men employed in the different years, and he saw no other means of ascertaining the probable ex pence, depending as it did upon accident. Sir J. YORKE said, that the terms wear and tear had been in vogue many years, without having any distinct meaning.— As there were so many Commissioners of the Navy, he thought it a pity that the expenditure included in this vote could not be placed under some more proper heads. Mr. CHOKER stated that there could be no objection, and never had been to state to the House the prices of stores and other materials, the want of which could be anticipated.—But such a detail as the Honourable Member seemed to want, would include a statement of the nature of the service in which the money was to be employed in the succeeding year, which f'or political reasons, it would be imprudent to make ; and on that account the present vote had been generally considered as a vote of confidence. lie would ask whether, even in this time of profound peace, it would be proper to publish a statement by which foreigners, who might afterwards become our ene mies, should be made aware of the scheme of employment for our Naval service all over the world. „If any Gentleman entertain ed any jealousies to the prices of stores, as he had before said, there would be opportunities for objecting to them. Mr. MA BERLEY had never heard such an explanation of a vote as that given by the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty since he had sat in Parliament ; and should think necessary to make it the subject of . a distinct motion. They were told that the House was called upon to give the Government confidence for the application of the sum included in this vote. It was called for under the head of wear and tear ; and it was easy enough to understand what that meant. Hut they were now told by the Hon. Gentleman that something further was done with the money of which the House knew nothing.. Mr. CHOKER said that what he spoke of was the distribu tion of the force, anti not the application of the money, which he could assure the lion. Member was all applied to the wear and tear of the Navy. Sir J. YORKE was glad to hear the explanation, because he thought front what first fell from the lion. Secretary, that there was some great policy ; or something to be kept from the knowledge of the House. Mr. MABERLEY explained that he. had been under the same mistake. Mr. HUME expressed his surprise that the Hon. Secretary should be afraid of letting the public and foreigners know the destination of our ships, when a Gentleman by the name of Murray, under his express sanction, regularly published a' Printed list, stating where every ship in the Navy was to be em ployed. If, then, the world knew this, where was the reason for keeping it from the House of Commons ? Be was quite satisfied that from the manner in which these Accounts were kept, considerable alteration was required. Ile had no doubt but that investigation would show, as in other cases, that the money was expended in a manner not intended or understood by the 1-louse. In the expenditure of money he had no confidence at all in the Government : and he could not conceive what con fidence was necessary to be given for the expence of the wear and tear of vessels. Sir G. CLERK said, that by looking at the expellee of for. PRICE SEVENPENCE: mer years it would be seen how the money was applied ; and upon that average the estimate of the Prospective expence was taken, at so, much per head according to the number of.men. He saw no advantage in taking it upon the number of ships,.wllile. the latter mode would be Open to the.objection talcs by Hon. Friend, that foreigners wourd.be made -acqu 3 .Elted With the intended employment of our'force: Mr. MA BER LEY concurred with the . Hon. Memb , ir for Aberdeen in thinking• that all expenditure should be laid be: fore the public, and no confidence given to the Government in such matters. Was it not sufficient confidence that the . Hotta., granted the money by anticipation ? The Resolution was then voted. The next was a grant of 94,25e1. for the Ordnr.nce of t.!:e same service. - Mr. HUME made similar objections to this vote, and mai;l - that the detailed expences ought to be laid before the House, and not the calculation 'per man. It welykl - then he found that much of this money, as he had upon a foither sion chewed to the House, was expended upon die:freemen c Queenhorough, one hundred and sixty of whom were en:pleyed by the Government; and thus the seats for that'Borough wre secured.—When this was known, to be the case, subject demanded the strict fittentlon of Parliament. Howevr he re spected the wisdotn of our ancestors, he thought the experience of " us moderns," was in many respects superior ; and he par ticularly objected to this system of secresy with 1%.4; ~rd -to th actions of the Government. It was impo:sible, front the na ture of the accounts, for any man to see-whether this, vote was correct or not. Sir G. CLERK said that the expenditure of the niatiey was clearly applied to the necessary services .of the Navy, and tl;:! employment of powder vessels at Queenborotzgh to carry powder to . the ships for which it was designed, c,:mld not dispensed with. But these details came before theilouse the Ordnance Estimates. Mr. MA BERLEY thought there could be no time so proper as the present for investigating and objecting to such abuses. It was notorious, that to become a freeman of Queenboroug4 was to obtain a'sort of annuity by means of the useless eniploy- Ment given to them by Government in sending their boats. with powder up and down the Thames. If detailed estimates had been laid before the House, these things would never have been allowed. He hoped that such detailed estimates would be given by the Hon. Baronet, and if not it was competent to . move for a special estimate upon those heads, which he himself should do if it were. not done by his Honourable Friend. - Mr. HUME expressed, his intention of taking that courso if the estimate were not altered in another year. Sir I. COFFIN said the details could now be had. Mr. HUME denied the statement of the Gallant Admiral, and declared that he knew nothing about the matter. The Resolution was then agreed to; the report was ordered to be received to-morrow, and the Ch a irm an obtained leave to set again on Wednesday. ASSOCIATIONS IN IRELAND . . Mr. GOULBURN moved the Order of the Day for re suming the debate- upon the motion for kave to bring in 'a Bill to amend the law relating to unlawful Associations in Ireland. Mr. G. LAMB said, that he felt a natural desire to state his opinion to the House upon a topic which had justly claim ed so large a share of its attention, and of the attention of the" country. It appeared to hi m t h at , notw ith s t an d ing the length • to which the debate had extended, the provisions of the pro.- posed Bill had still been left in considerable obscurity. lie agreed with the Hight lion. and Learned Attorney G,n,ral fur Ireland, that those who framed the Convention ,3ct of 1792 had a full regard for theigonstitution. He would .not us' a phitis - e which bad lately got much into.vogue (and one possessing mote no-meaning he had scarcely ever met with) he would not say that the framers of that act respected the' spirit of the Col istitutuin ;' but they did shew a becoming respect for the practice of the Constitution which had not been followed upon the present oc casion. The Convention Act contained a provision which stated that it should not operate to prevent the meeting of the people. to obtain a redress of grievances. Ne he had heard of no such provision in the Bill about to be proposetL and thus for the first time they were called upon to legislate against a right hitherto considered inalienable and indestructible. Whatever had been the conduct of the Catholic Association, its origin was created by. the existence: of -grievances, and its object was to obtain redress for them. That men should associate for such a purpose was clearly constitutional ; and if they pro ceeded to unwarrantable measures, the King's A ttorney-Gea neral should be content with watching them, and stepping when occasion demanded the exercise of the powers vested in him by the law. The Attorney-General had indeed watched them ; but all they h a d to c o mpl a i n o f was , th a t h e h a d used too much vigilance, and preferred indictments against acts which were not indictable. And now the House was called upon, as in the case of the bottle and rattle assassination, to supply an apology, then by enquiry, and now by Bill, for his defective law and worse discretion. The lion. 3lember then argued that the conduct of the Government towards the two par ties in Ireland had no pretension to the impartiality which they claimed for it. It was clear too, that the Orangemen themselves might complain w:th much justice of the proposed Meastu e.— They might say to the Government," You are repaying its for our loyalty an t i th e su pp or t we h ave given you by putting us down, not for any acts which we have committed, but for the misconduct of our opponents." But why had they heard no thing of this from the friends of the Orangemen in that IlOuse - ? Because they knew well that the Bill would not reach them and that it would oper a t e aga i ns t th e Cath o li cs a l one . Th e y knew themselves to be so strongly fortified 'in their illegal secrecyH so long understood and so long practised—as to be beyond the reach of this or any other law. lie next came to the gravamen of the charge against the Catholic AsSociatiOn ; he meant that which had beer, described in A the speeches on the other side as levying taxes.—(Hear, hear !)a—Fle contended that there was no difference between the subsCriptions raised by the Catholic Priest and the money collected by the Bible e;ocie ties and other bodies. lie did not knoW whether he was addressing many who were in the habit of going to church laugh.)—He supposed he was ; and if so, lie was sure . there were few amongst diem who did not come out with their pockets muck. lighter than when they entered ; and that, too. at the recommendation' of. our Protestant Clergymen. The money so collected was applied to laudable objects, but not such as were more laudable than those of the 'Catholic Pries:- hood. If this were levying taxes, he only' wished that t'a, Right lion. Chancellor of the -E;ehequer would levy his the same way, giving the same option, and there would epee be an end of the odious character attached to the word taa.— (A latigh.)—As to the passage so much dwelt on by the tr side, calling upon. the Catholics to be tranquil by the hate the bear to Orangemen, they were enjoined to show tht;ir hattr :d . by forgeting injuries, and by giving .their enemies-no cause Cr provocation. Thi s wa s 'th e light in which .the o,jaration cneht to be viewed. Some had wished to apply to it the sentiment cc Shylock, is hen he Said Mates any man the thing he would - not. kit/ ?" but be thought it used very rmich in the ea me settee that N'42:l,re Weston was made to say, " Is not every tiasielbra bound to hate every Frenchman as he bates the Devil in (A. laugh.)—He believed there Were.maiy CO.un try E boar in and cut - of .that 'House, who still honoured tiiat ment . witheut • a`taching a more 'defined 'meaning to-ra • "'!'hid' was intended or implied by the hatred of Orangamen! ' Ile had considerable hope, front the speech of the A ttorney-Grae ral for Ireland, that the state of the Catholic ; population or that country would yet receive the just attention of the Uoveer. ment, and that from the beneficence of his Majesty's feel;p;s, and the moderation still shewn by the Catholics, - some ppttino at least of their claims might be granted during the present Sy- iion, so as to prevent the necessity of th e p r oposed Bill "s'i'ft, into a law.—(Hear, hear !) . C " he had ti p h A e M arC S l ° in the opinion as to the imperative necessity of suppressing; thing; - l e na'st thirt - v tholic . .Association. After the experience of t . the commen ced debatea b s y e r v s: y d in b g o , t thatt (ctirry t whatever. airing! support the existence of any Associations had followed fate. that time party had followed party, fa h et y i" gave rise, were ale' tion, and the Associations to which t ;lein g ber then went over years;he should have conceived it impossible for any man to . ways the curse of Ireland. The -4° ,e n c i *an enumeration of the Societies i f i Orrr ; had followed them, contend.: the unhappy consequences wir e past called loudly for the put ting; that all the experience of t existence. He gladly supported tirig down such as. were 'Right Hon. Friend, not only because it within that period, and the' measure of his 'Rig but also repress the misguided loyalty of iwnittehne porerasentgitedAebssaoteltiinohcsomwpciaeristohne r o t . l i at ,,o d c o ia w i z i i o ' circumstances might again be likely• • the Orange party, where . to call forth its e xuberance. In saying this he could not avoid he c ontrasted sentiments anti conduct which a part of . Association, but' turbulent and intolerable acts of the Ca_ noticing 4 t sec the complacency stwilbt with efejat7'ot.l.tos' house discussion. aerd wa s(olicscpalsai y l o tned' astonishing to TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 15, 1825. PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS, MoNn.ty, FEB. 14. The LORD CHANCE LLOR took his seat at au early hour, and heard Counsel on the Scotch spinal case, Maule O. His Lordship delivered his opinion on a part of the case, but deferred his judgment. On the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, Baring's Divorce Bill was read a first time. CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION. The Earl of SHAFTESBEJR Y . presented a petition from the Churchwardens and Parishioners of Hartsbourne Priors, in Hampshire, against any further concessions to the Roman Ca tholics.—Laid on the table:---Th e House then adjourned. HOU.;E OF coMMONS. The Gallery was opened et two was imme diately filled by persons who had been waiting for a consider able time at the doors.—The FircAK ER took eie Chair at four o'clock. • Mr. HOBFIOUSE presented a petition from the Dean and Chapter of Westminster, fir leave. to irrilirotre Ordered to lie on the table. `. Mr. Alderman - WOOD pr; tented a petition from sonic of the inhabitants of the City of London, against the increase of tythes. Referred to a Committe 2 . ST. C ATHERINE'S DOCKS. Mr. KNIGUT presented a petition from Rye. in favour of these Docks; 3tr. 11. DAv 1,1 presented similar Petitions from Bristol and Plymouth ; Mr. BUTTERWORTII a similar pe tition from Dover; sir G. CLERK, a similar petition front' Leith ; Lord BINNING, a similar petition from Dartmouth ; Mr. BYNG, a similar petition from the inhabitants of St. Ca therine's ; Sir G. a similar petition from New haven. All of which were ordered to lie on the ttble and to be printed. JOINT STOCK COMPANIES. Mr. BROGDEN obtained leave to brim.7"in a Bill to enable the Equitable Loan Bank Company to sue and be sued, and to enable their Secretary to take out licence. F. BUXTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Alliance Marine Insurance Company to sue and be sued in the name of the Chairman, or any or the Members. Mr. F. BUXTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill to in corporate the Mexican Mining Association. - Mr. F. BUXTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill to in corporate the London Water Works Company. The SHEIUFFS of the City of London appeared at the bar of the House with a Petition from the City of London, relating to Southwark Gaol.—Referred to a Committee. TITHES IN THE CITY OF LONDON. The SHERIFFS presented another Petition from the City of London, respecting the Tytlies collected under the 32d of Henry the Eighth, and prayim; the , Hpuse to take it into consideration. Air. Alderman %VOOI) nia'Cle a few remarks in favour of the Petition, and in repr3hation of the system pursued with respect to the tythes in question. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that in many of the parishes the clergy and parisoioners were on good terms, and in no parish did the clergymen demand their full tythes.._( Hear !) In those parishes where they went: dem • nded to their full amount, the persons so demanding were lay itnpropriators.—Ulear Mr. CA LCHAFT said, the most grievous case in the City was that of a lay impropriator.- - (11 ear !) He said that in the matter of St. Andrew's, Holborn, the arrangmtents made last Session, in a Committee of the House, had been perfectly sa tisfactory to all parties. After a few observations from Mr. Butterworth, Alderman Brydgcs, Alderman Hevgate,'Aldnman Wood, and Mr. Peel, the Petition was referred- to a Committee. Mr. JERVOISE presented a Petition from the Town of Southampton against the Catholic Association.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition from the Town of Rishop-Stortford, in favour of the Small Debts Bill.—Or dered to lie on the table. Mr. P. MI:.DMA V presented a petition from the House holders of Winchester against the Houv. and Window Tax.— Ordered to be printed. .-Mr. INNISSAY presented a petition from the . Notaries Public of Dundee, against the Attorney's Tax—Ordered to be printed. BUNG presented a petition from the Inhabitants of Tottenham, praying a reduction of the Duty on Coals..---Or dered to lie on the table. Sir N. COLTHURST presented a petition from Cork, pray.. ink fbr the repeal of the Ditty on Coals seaborne. • Sir NEWPORT supported the petition.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. HUIIE presented a - petition front the Practitioners of LAw in Brecirin, in Scotland, against the Attorneys' fax.— Ordered to he printed. IRON 'TRADE. Mr. HUME movedfin7lrett;;;;l;he quantity of British iron exported in the years 1821, 1823 ; and 1824, distinguishing the quantity in each year, and the countries to which it was exported. Also a return of the quantity of Foreign iron im ported into Great Britain for the same years, and the amount of duty paid. Also a return of the quantity of Foreign iron exported from England during the same years. Sir I. COFFIN said, he hoped that the Import Iron Trade would not be thrown open so far as regarded Russian, inas much as the Erriperor of Russia had thrown every impediment in the way of the Export Trade to that country.—Ordered. Mr. HUME' gave - notice of a Motion for Wednesday next to permit the exportation or machinery. LAND TAX. Mr. TILLIM moved for a return of the Assessment of the Land Tax unredeemed, for the counties of Middlesex and Surrey, and the cities of London and Ntrestminster, with Sundry details connected therewith. The Hon. Member said, that he hoped Ministers would adopt some measures for the purpose of checking the present extraordinary mode of collecting and disposing of this Tax. As soon as the returns he had moved for should he granted, he intended to submit a motion on the subject.—Ordered. COAL DUTIES. Sir J. NEWPORT presented a Petition froM Waterford against the Duty on Seaborne Coals. Mr. HUME said it was incumbent on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state the intention of - Government on this sub ject, as at present immense quantities of coal, to the amount of 800,000 cl ldrons, wer e annua ll y wasted in consequence of the ill heavy dut Th e C ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he . could not make any piecemeal explanations, as he had given notice of a motion on this subject for the 25th of this nionth.- (Hear !)______ Mr. LOCKHART presented a Petition from St. Martin's parish, in Oxford., against the House and Window Tax.—Or tiered to be printed. Mr. BROGDEN brought up the Report from the Com mittee of Supply, certain resolutions for enabling Govern ment to pay Off 30,000,090/. of Exchequer Bills, ,which were agreed to. NAVY ESTIMATES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the day for the Comthittee of Supply on the Navy Estimates. Mr. Ilt).Wel--,:said, that before the /louse went into a Com mittee on the Naiy Estimates, be wished to know what amount of men was to be added to the Army. Tht CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he could not see the necessity of statin g on a motion for a Com mittee on the Navy Estimates, what was intended to be done in another Committee on the Army Estimates. - Mr. HUME repeated his question. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he had no objection to state what he understood was to he the amount, lie only objected to the un reasonableness of the de mand. He believed that an addition of 8 ,000 men, rank an d file, would he moved exclusive of that force, the expence of which was to be defrayed by the Easttndia Company. • The House then resolved itself int o A COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Sir GEO. CLERK observed, that as the number of men to be voted this year in the Navy Estimates was the same as for the last year, it would not be necessary thr him to detain the t o protect the trade in that quarter House long. It was impossible to lessen that number in con it might suffer from the conflicting a se n q d ue b i e ic e e au o s f the growth and extent of the nationll commerce, and our new foreign relations in South ' America re quire were not h the nest of pirates in Cuba had itpirt,ottritrit parties eienr injuries naval sA I lwt f l o ilio r i c u ; hg yet wholly- extir pbaeetend,"atnindguaishcelitlYeertabltehe)force was still necessary for the protection of trade in that quarter of the West Indies. But