The Sun. — London, England, 1825-02-15 00:00:00

with which Gentlemen on the other side seemed to look upon their inconsistencies. Who could forget the pomp and parade with which the lion, and Learned Member for Caine (Mr. Abereromby) came down to the House last Session to demand the suppression of Orange Societies ? Who. forgot the violent -denunciations which were then heard? And the Hon. and Learned Member who spoke last still launched forth invective against Orange Lodges, although he believed there were no such things in existence. He could answer for Derry, which had been described as the focus of Orangeism, that there was no Orange Lodge in existence there. He believed that this Catho lic Association was the most dangerous, the most mischievous, and the most unconstitutional body that ever existed in Ireland. Commanding a paid press, it disseminated its pernicious prin ciples throughout the country, and its orators stuck at no falsehoods which went to exasperate the people, and to create hostility against the established institutions of the country.— Some Gentlemen in that House had excused the intemperance of the leaders of the Association, and the Hon. and Learned Member who spoke last bad described it as . a mere speck of violence. He had no means of judging of the speakers but by their speeches ; and he would read to the House a few passages from the documents of this body, and from the speeches which had been delivered at its Meetings. In their Finance Report, of which 50,000 copies were published last February, and dis tributed all over 'lreland at a time when the Rent was not going on so successfully, the people were told " to wait until they had a more favourable opportunity and better organized resources." Three months after this, when the money came in faster, Mr. O'Connell, in one of his speeches, told them, " not to press the arming of the Roman Catholics at present ; ' if they did, it might be supposed that they were going to de clare war at once." All this might sound ridiculous enough in that House, but what was its effect upon the Catholic pea santry ? That House might think it ridiculous ; but they thought it good practical advice, and would be ready enough to act upon the insinuations it conveyed, when " the more favourable opportunity" arrived. There were other speeches of the same class, addressed to their ignorant prejudices and bad feelings ; but these were enough to shew the de signs of the Catholic Association with regard to the peasantry of Ireland. He would next shew in what manner the Legislature and the liberty of speech in the House of Par aliament were treated. In a speech delivered by Mr. Shiel it was said,—" but the Legislature requires the degradation of a whole people to satisfy its bigotry," and " it is a scion of intolerance," and-so on. Lord Redesdale was characterised as an assassin, -and the delivery of his opinion was called " an - assassin-like speech." The Duke of York took the liberty of speaking his opinion, and he was immediately subject to the grossest attacks. The Finance Report declared him to be " an enemy to Ireland." A Gentleman present having more prudence than the rest, objected to this passage of the report; when Mr. O'Connell got up and supported it, and said, " The heir apparent ought not to forget that a Duke of York once lost his crown for his opinions." Another Gentleman said, that " the Duke of York's life was a life of no service." These opinions and this language were then disseminated over the whole country by the agency of their - newspapers, and left to make impressions upon the minds of the,ignorant, against which, he contended, it was impossible for that House to be blind. In the same manner the Prelates • or Abe Established Church were held up as " plunderers and robbers." After eulogising the character of the Archbihop of Tuam, the Hon. Member called the attention of the House to the meeting held at Tuam, at which soldiers were present, at the request of the Catholic Clergy ; and then to the proceed ings of the Association, which accused the Archbishop of " introducing the soldiers for the purpose of intimidating or murdering all the Roman Catholic Priests who should ven ture to express their opinion." He next alluded to a speech of Mr. O'Connell, in which he directs the Catholics of Ire land to look at the example of the Presbyterians in Scotland, who " hewed down with the sword of the Lord the Arch bishops and Bishops ; and when the soldiers of England, be came too strong for them, they retired to their mountains, re titivated their strength, and afterwards carried war into the dwellings of their enemies." This language, he repeated, was addressed to the deluded and ignorant peasantry of Ireland, than whom, he was sorry to say, few were more ready to enter into scenes of turbulence and bloodshed. Let them now see what Mr. O'Connell said of the Bench and of those connected • with the learned profession. He described the Chancellorship of Lord Manners anti the Attorney-Generalship of Mr. Saurin as having degraded and sullied the independence of the Bar ; and further, that the administration of justice 'wins " corrupt at its source"—that it was " partial, vindictive, and unjust."— These assertions had been ably and eloquently contradicted by his Hon. and Learned Friend (31r. Doherty) on a former night ; its falsehood every sensible mind knew ; but its object was to disgust the people with the laws of the country, and to array them against all its institutions. At one meeting of • the Association two Gentlemen were proposed as members, and their names (Mr. Devereux and Mr. Hamilton Rowan) were received with " thunders of applause." Sir. Devereux was the only surviving delegate of the Convention of 1792 ; and when lie was proposed, M. O'Connell got tip and said, that " Mr. Devereux must be admitted as a matter of course, be cause he was a member of the Catholic Convention." Thus it appeared that a man became a member of the Catholic Associa tion by virtue of having belonged to another society which the Legislature had declared to be iUegal. Mr. 11. Rowan was secretary to the United Irishmen, and having been covicted of seditious practices, and imprisoned, he escaped from his prison arid. left the country. lie (Mr.` Dawson) believed that he was afterwards attainted of high treason, but subsequently permitted by the Government to return to Ireland. Upon the name of this man being proposed to the Catholic Asso . eiation, it was received with thunders of applause ! Why was if so—and why were all the most violent characters and aheir speeches 'applauded in the same way by that Associa thin ? Because its object was to make the minds of the people fittnitiar with .former violences, in order to fit them for an eventual repetition of those frightful scenes which every good man desired to see forgotten. He thought the distresses of Ire land were to be attributed to the Catholic Priests.--( Hear, hear !)—He regretted that his duty compelled him to state that belief, but it was sincere. He regretted that he had the mis thrtune to differ from the Right Hon. and Learned Attorney- General for Ireland in this respect--( Hear, hear ! )—but he be lieved•the Catholic Association to be the work of the Priests, as a irst step towards the overthrow of the Protestant Church._ They were told by Dr. Curtis, the titular primate of Ireland, th::t the Archbishop of Dublin was an usurper. Dr. Doyle stated that the " whole body of the Catholics was impatient - and dis affec:ed ; and that if a rebellion broke out, no sentence of ex comnionication would be fulminated by the Catholic priesthood." ---A Mr. L'Estrange denied that any character belonged to the Protestant Clergy in the State. A priest of the name of Kelly • told his congregation at Mallow to subscribe to the Rent " be cause." said he, " money is the sinews of war." What did all • tais , proiOat a union of action amongst the, body of the priests, e3l thrected to the same object ? Who severed the ties between the landlord and the tenant ? Who led on the fury of parties at elections, ana added to political animosity the aggravation of religious fury ? Who impeded the course of education ? Who stood up in opposition to every benevolent object which - the friends of Ireland could devise ? To all he would answer— the Catholic Priesthood ! And in all this they were animated by the design of erecting their own Church upon the ruins of • Protestant Establishment. Ilis opinion was, that if' the Boost did not put down the Association, the Association and the priests would eventually accomplish that design. . bin CAREW was happy . to have an opportunity of express ing his sentiments on a subject of each importance, and which geld excited so much interest in - Ireland—more particularly, as he should not wish that his objections to the measures pro posed beadle . Right Honourable Secretary should be con strued into .approbation of all that bad passed there for the last six months. He disliked all Societies which had their origin in religiOti3 politics or religious exclusion ; but he bad a perfect conviction .of the utter inutility of attempting to coerce public opinion by • legislative enactments. As long as the Cotholic Question remained in its present situation so long . would religious feuds.attl societies exist. They might put them down in one shape, but they would raise their heads in others, and perhaps more objectionable forms. The very fate of the Bill respecting Orange Societies should have taught the House .- another lesson. Orange Societies were falling into disrepute, and were abandoned by almost every person of rank or cha racter ; but when it ,was attempted to put them down by Act _ of P a rliament, the spirit was roused, and there were now ,- more Orangemen than at any former period. The same fate , would attend the present Bill. They put down the Catholic Board in 1814, and tkey had now an Association, which com ritehended all the rank, talents, and - erealth of the Catholics • of' Ireland. Why then have recourse to unconstitutional, useless ,encroachments on the liberty of the subject, when they had •a, plain straight- forward remedy. Let them - do justice to. themselves -s-let them do justice to the Catholics, and to the Constitution. This was the only way in which they could succeed. T hi s was the only way in which they - ought to succeed. ,There was, he believed, no thinking person iii Ireland who did not feel that the point at .issue must even • tually be conceded. Why then •delay until concession - might perhaps be attributed to • fear, and • cease to 'be esteemed a • favour. The Irish Catholics.were now in .a very different situ - anon to what they were formerly. 'The Association now com prehended all classes, from the Peer to the peasant. The Catho lics of Ireland were formerly disunited, they were now united, they knew their strength, and felt their grievances, as who would nut feel them? Could they see unconcerned the King of Ha nover grant to his foreign subjects there privileges which the Kin;;. of England was not allowed to extend to his subjects at !Lorre ?—could they see this, and not feel aggrieved? Nay, more, tine fate of the Bill respecting the English Catholics, had done more to unite the Catholic Body than any one circum-; stance with which he w as " aimed. ,Session •after. :•Session,' hear !)-lle alluded to that of his Honourable Friend who had just sat down, and to that of the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman the Irish Attorney-General. He would ask how opposite parties outside the Cabinet were to be reconciled, when its Members seemed so totally at va riance with each other.—(Hear, hear s—Violent persons must think that they had their respective champions in the Go vernment. He should not, however, pursue the track which either of his Honourable 'friends had pursued with respect to former periods of Iriih history. The less that was said about the past the better for Parliament and the better for the Country. Did his Honourable Friend (Mr. Dawson) think that if the page of history ware opened no items would be found on the other side of the account ? Did he think that murders were not balanced by murders and atrocities by atro cities ?lis Honourable Friend (31r. Dawson) had spoken of Orangemen and Protestants as synonimous, but he must take that opportunity to state that no two words were of more op posite import. He himself would not yield even to his Hon. Friend - in sincere attachment to the Retbrmed Religion—but because he held by that creed, could it blind him to the evils which the Orange system produced in Ireland ? In bring ing forward the present measure the Right Honourable Secre tary stated that the object was to put down all Associations in Ireland— meaning both Orange Societies and the Catholic Association. Let the remedy be shewn to be effectual for that impartial purpose, and roman would support it more zealously than he should. But he must have evidence, not assertion, to decide upon. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Dawson) said, that one thing was true, and that another thing was true ; but to confirm those allegations what State Papers did his Hon. Friend ad duce ! He read extracts from the Newspapers ! But were such documents sufficient to warrant that House in infringing upon the liberties of the subject, and silencing the demands of the people for the redress of their sufferings ? And yet upon those newspaper facts his Hon. Friend asserted that the Ca tholic Association had dissociated the people of Ireland from the Imperial Parliament. He should further like to know from his Hon. Friend, whether Orangemen existed or did not exist. If, as he understood him to say, no Orangemen did exist, on what plea was the present Bill introduced in the shape it then appeared—for, according to his Hon. Friend, they were about to legislate respecting a mere phantom. If so, there was an end altogether of the object of the Bill. His lion. Friend had quoted speeches from the proceedings of the Catholic Association, and he ( Mr. S. Rice) was certainly not prepared to approve of the whole conduct of that Body. Ile knew indeed of no Assem bly whose acts he would undertake to justify. The Gentlemen opposite, he imagined, would not be very willing to he made accountable for what passed on both sides of the House ; nor • would even the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General for Ire land, he thought, be much disposed to stand committed for the contents of his Hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry's speech. But even for the acts, much less the speeches of any public assembly, it would be too bad to be obliged to find a justification. Had they not upon the table of that House acts of folly, as well as acts of wisdom ? Had they not declared that two and two, instead of making four, made five ? Let, then, the general rule be applied to the Association, and he should claim no more. The two parties however were not on equal grounds. Let it be recollected that although violence in those who possessed power, and were in the full enjoyment of political privileges, might be blameable, it was only natu ral that violence should break forth among persons excluded from all those enjoyments, and smarting under a complication of injuries. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Dawson) seemed to have carefully gone through all the files of the Irish newspapers to ..find support for the present measure ; but he would ask him were there not speeches of a different character from those he had pointed out ? Ile should beg pardon of the house while he also read an extract from one of the last Dublin Papers which had reached London, and to it earnestly entreated atten tion. lie alluded to the few observations which fell from Lord Killeen at the last meeting of the Catholic Association, and they were on every account most important, as they showed the combination of moderation, and high station which that As sembly embodied, and the determined ohedience to the laws, which at so critical a conjuncture as the present, governed its proceedings : " On taking the Chair, his Lordship said—There never was. in the history of Irish Catholic affairs a period so important as the yresent very critical crisis. During the last Session of Par liament the Catholics presented their humble Petition to the Legislature, and at the commencement of the present Session, although the Lords Commissioners' speech represented the country as in the most flourishing condition—peace, trinquillity anti prosperity through the British empire ; yet the Catholics looked in suin to the speech from the Throne for the word Con. cession—while there was strongly expressed the determination of bringing forward a new proscriptive enactment, not merely to oppress the Irish Catholics, but to strike at the root of British liberty, of which, in thiscountry, little but the name was known. (Loud Cheers.)—lt was, however, consoling to find, that their Protestant brethren were coming forward in the cause of con science. Without the concurrence and support of their Protes tant countrymen, the Catholics could never expect emancipa tion, and it behoved them to be watchful, that the snares of their opponents lead them into no indiscretion calculated to for feit the good feeling of the Protestants. He conjured them, not by the hate they bore to Orangemen,' but by the love they owed all men•—the stake they had in their country—the vene ration they owed to the memory of their forefathers, and the fidelity with which they cling to their religion, which the lure of emolument nor the apprehension of punishment could shake, to submit to the laws with the fortitude of men and the obedience of subjects."— Now, if these sentiments were expressed by the Nobleman who presided at the Association, and were favourably received by the meeting, he trusted the fact would not be without weight in suspending the decision of the House on the present Bill.— Hear !)—But his lion. Friend (31r. Dawson) had said that the Association disconnects the people from the laws and the Legis lature. If he (Mr. Rice) believed so, this was the measure to rectify the evil, which he would assent to. The contrary was the true state of the case. The Association said to every pea sant, " When you are aggrieved, apply to Parliament for re dress, pettrion the House of Commons, and you will there find a remedy for your wrongs." The Association provided in like manner with regard to the administration of justice, and he would take that occasion to say, that he heard with much pleasure the opinions of his Hon. and Learned Friend,the Mem ber for New Ross (Mr. Doherty) upon so important a point. He wished, however, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as well as the authority of others, had furnished the flouse with some of the results of his own professional experience. The opinion which he gave was too unqualified to be perfectly cor rect. If his Hon. anti Learned Friend had stated to the House the particulars of a prosecution in which he was him self engaged on the Leinster Circuit, against certain Magis trates for gross delinquencies, it might be seen whether the means existed of punishing those persons as they deserved._ Unqualified assertions with respect to Ireland were not to be too much relied on. He recollected that at one time, when the state of the Irish Revenues Department was proposed as• a fit subject for investigation, it was said that nothing could be less liable to exception ; and he afterwards had the satisfaction to hear the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer charac terize the same Departments as an A ugean stable which required to be thoroughly cleansed. In the course of the inquiries before Committees above stairs, it was said to be notorious that the most iniquitous occurrences took place before Magistrates ; and one of the reasons assigned for encouraging the sittings of Petty Sessions in Ireland was, that these 31agistrates could not take fees, and must act impartially from the vigilance which one evinced over the conduct of the other. The I-louse should there fore not implicitly confide in unqualified encomiums on the ad ministration of justice in Ireland. Was it not proved in the Com mittee above stairs that an indisposition prevailed throughout the whole country to resort to the laws ? Upon this subject one thing had come to light which was not without weight. In the course of the Parliamentary investigation into the Distillery Laws, it was stated that the committals under those laws amount ed to about 6,000 persons annually. One of the witnesses was in consequence asked if it were not probable that, by encou raging the manufacture of legal instead of potteen or illicit spirits for the use - of the poor, the number of cOmmi ttals would be dimi nished ? He answered in the negative, and illustrated his reply by stating that scarcely any one drank potteen but the Dignitaries of the Church, the Officers of the Army, and the Magistr a t es .— (M uch laughing. )—So that theonly persona who violated th e laws, or profited by their violation, were those who ought to uphold them —the Dignitaries of the Church, the Officers of the Army, and the Magistrates.—(A laugh.)—What then must the poor of any country think of the laws thus administered ? The Hon. Mem ber then eulogized the Judges of the Court of King's Bench, Ireland, for an unrivalled concentration of learning, integrity, and wisdom ; but regretted • that some other of the superior. Courts were occasionally scenes of buffoonery—where the pun: of the day circulated, instead of the judgment of :the Bench,,7 the conduct of the Irish Catholics was contrasted with the His Honourable Friend (Mr. Dawson) had alluded to the con- English,—they were asked, why did they not imitate the loyal duct of the Catholic Clergy towards his Grace the Archbishop and modest demeanour of the English Catholics ? Then there of Tuam—but he believed in that statement something had could be no objection, no danger, in granting their claims. been suppressed. He had very truly mentioned the pious and What was the result ? A Bill passed the House last Session, zealous exertions of that Prelate in dispensing to the poor of he believed unanimously, to place the English Catholics merely his diocese the charitable contributions of the British public, on an equality with their more noisy, but in this respect, more at a season of unexampled suffering—(Hear !)—and accused fortunate neighbours. It was thrown out in the other House the Catholic population of having forgotten the obligations by a considerable majority, and several Noble, and not unin- thus conferred on them. But what was the fact ? That after fluential persons, expressed sentiments which would lead one t i the Reriod referred to, the peasantry unanimously claimed suppose that they would, if possible, take away those privi- the right to cut and gather in the Archbishop's harvest for leges which werealready granted. That was impossible. They him free of expence. If any change had since occurred, it might retard, but could not arrest the progress of public was because a crusade of proselytism had been undertaken opinion. in order to make Protestants of the Catholics, and estrange Mr. SPRING RICE was anxious to address the House them from the religion of their forefathers. If any fault were after the speech-which had . just been delivered by his Hon. attributable to the Irish, it certainly was not ingratitude, and Friend the Member for Londonderry. In the course of the least of all was their repugnance to the laws passed in Eng present debate the House had heard two speeches indicative cf land attributable to such a source.—( Hear !)—He greatly re the state of Ireland and of the state of Government.—(Elear, grated that the . introduction of the penal law now before the House tended to raise an invidiotis comparison between the present and the past reign. The last reign had been all concessions to the Catholics; for which, notwithstanding the personal feelings of the Monarch, the people of Ireland were still grateful—out the only Act of this reign which they had cause to remember was the passing of a new penal statute. Could any man think, however, that the present Will would be operative ? The Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel) had said that Parliament should run a race of ingenuity with the Catholic Association, but what sort of race would it be ? The Right Hon. Gentleman would find that when he started from London his competitors would have reached Hounslow. It was useless to talk of keeping within the spirit of an Act of Parliament, it was enough if men kept within its letter. He had a great authority lMr. Plunkett) for saying that persons were at liberty to do all which the law did not prohibit them from doing.— Let this definition be applied to the present Bill. If the Insur rection Act said that a man should .not be out after sun-set, it made it legal for him to be out an hour before sun-set, and so in whatever mode, or under whatever circumstances, the present Bill did not prohibit the Catholics from discussing their Brie , vances or seeking their redress--they would be justified in doing both. Upon the ground, therefore, of inoperativeness—upon the ground of the division in the Cabinet upon the Catholic Claims, he called upon the House to pause before it adopted a measure inoperative for good and operative for evil. He should conclude in the words of his Right Honourable Friend below him (Mr. Tierney), and implore the House to withhold its assent from the Bill. It should have his decided opposition, at the same time that if a proper course were taken to put down all Associations in Ireland, it should have his support. Mr. DA WSON explained. Ile begged to say, that he stat ed there were no Orange Lodges in Derry; but he had not made a similar assertion with respect to the rest of Ireland. Mr. BROWNLOW should avail himself of that oppor tunity to express his opinion on the measure which his Right Honourable Friend the Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Goulburn) had introduced to the House upon such unanswerable princi ples, and supported by such incontrovertible statements and arguments.—( Hear, hear !)—lie knew not whether the allusions which had proceeded from the other side of the House, as to the manner in which the Nobla. Marquis at the head of the Irish Government, had been thwarted in his liberal endeavours to ameliorate the condition of Ireland, were meant to apply to his Right Honourable Friend or not. But if they did, it was easier to make such assertions than to invalidate the facts of which the House were now in possession. Who had ever filled the same office that had laboured more sedulously in the public service, or with greater success.—(Hear, hear!)—Not only in the details of the arduous duties lie had to discharge but in bringing the measures confided to him to a satisfac tory conclusion his Right Hon. Friend had fulfilled the ut most wishes of Parliament and of the country.—(H ear !)—lle (Mr. B.), however, did not desire to separate the Chief Secre tary for Ireland from the Irish Administration. He had so often heard the fiction repeated at the other side of the House, that the whole of the Protestants of Ireland were adverse to the Marquis NVellesley's Government, that he could not avoid giving the assertion a positive denial. Lord Wellesley had conferred the greatest benefits on that country. Under his ad ministration Ireland had become an object of attraction—under his Administration a ready ear was always lent to the griev . anecs of the people, and a ready hand stretched forth to re dress them.—(llear, hear !)—lle had raised the country from poverty to prosperity, and converted a scene of disturbance into one of tranquillity. For these advantages the thanks of • Ireland were due to his Majesty's Government, and to none more than to the Marquis Wellesley. That Nobleman, how ever, could not be allowed to enjoy the honours and the grati s tude due to him. He was accused of feeling jealousy at the C a. t'adie Association, and that as two of a trade call never agree, • the Noble I ord envied the successful exertions of that Body , in tranluillizing Ireland. Nothing, however, could avail, un less that country were governed under the responsibility of a liwful Government, which would beat down the Catholic . Association. For one, he sincerely regretted that the senti ments contained in his Majesty's Speech at the opening of the present Session, had not been promulgated in the ezpeech at the commencement of the Session. of 1824. Bow much was it to be deplored, diet- vhen, he last. year presented a manly and , loyal petition to that Hotote, and supported it with what power . of remonstrance he possesised, measures had not been devised to put down the Catholic Association. The situation of Ire land and of Parliament would now have been very different. The Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs then described the proceedings of that body as the mere exuberances of a free state of society, and the Association itself, as a sort of safety valve through which the explosive humours of the nation escaped—an excrescence on the soft surface of beauty, which, left alone, would speedily wither and die away. But in a few months what a change in the constitution and pretensions of that assembly ! And now might he ask what Association was the pre sent Bill directed against? Ile would answer the Catholic As sociation alone.---( Hear, bear 1)—If any thing has been done to warrant the Legislature in infringing upon the rights of the people of Ireland, it is imputable to the Catholic Association only. What had the Protestants, " sworn and unswom," done ? hook to the North of Ireland, where the great majority of the people were Protestants. Bad they not been patient, enduring, peaceful, and charitable towards the Catholics beyond all past example ? and under indignities and exasperations beyond all past example ? that character was admitted by. the high and the lowly ; and whether followed into . private life, or observed in public life, the faitloof the Irish Protestant was fa'and pro ducing its genuine fruit. Nor was it of the Protestants of the North of Ireland that he spoke, although from re*lence and connection he was better acquainted with them than with those in other parts of the country. It was, however, every where the same. What then had the Protestants done that they should be made to taste the bitter cup which ought to be ad. ministered to the Catholic Association only ? He supposed, as he had seen sickly children induced to take physic by seeing it taken by those who were in good health, so the pill was to he made palateable to the Association by compelling the 'Protest ants to swallow it likewise. The just were to suffer with the unjust, the innocent with the guilty—and those who would serve and stand by the country be involved in the same punishment with those who would involve the nation in one common ruin. The Right Honourable Baronet opposite (Sir Henry Parnell) would fain persuade the-House that Mr. O'Con nell and Mr. Shiel were harmless as lambs- and innocent as doves, while Mr. Gordon and Mr. Noel were denounced in the severest terms for having attempted to circulate among the people that wicked book, the bible I—(Hear, hear, hear!)—He grieved, he heartily grieved, to hear the Hon. Member for Northampton (Captain Maberley) and the Right Hon. Mem ber for Queen's county (Sir H. Parnell) condemn the conduct • of Mr. Gordon and Mr. Noel for endeavouring to make the peo ple acquainted with those joyous strains which accompanied a feeling of true religion. Even if proselytism were their object, they deserved praise for it, and they were right, as every Christian would be, in endeavouring to spread the faith which in his soul he believed to be the only true one. The Hi bernian Bible Society, however, could not be justly accused of any attempts at proselytizing. That society merely sought to give the Catholics their own version of the Bible—to pay Roman Catholic schoolmasters to instruct Catholic children, and what was the cry raised against, slot against proselytizing, but against educating the p oor , b ecause th e C a th o li c re li g i on was founded on ignorance, and by ignorance only could be up held. The Honourable Member then adverted to the Conven tion Act, and showed that its object was to prevent the people from making any advance towards electing deputies, as well as to undertake the representation of any of - the King's subjects. The Hon. and Learned Member for Nottingham (Mr. Denman) had attempted to throw ridicule upon that Act, because its spe cially excepted the Houses of Parliament and the Houses of Convocation. But that fact allowed the extent to which the Legislature wished to stretch its provisions, and that it intend ed no assembly to escape its operation.—.( Hear !)—lf any Mem ber opposite were a real friend to Emancipation, he ought to assist in putting down the Association. That ody did not meet to petition—their At millions was the beginning, the pith, and the end of all they said, that they might intimidate the Legislature by menaces. The Hon. Member here read an extract from a speech of the Marquis WellesleY's in 1812, against conceding the claims of the Catholics to a sys te m of terror and defiance. The f a ct w a s, th a t the Association h ad caused many Protestants, who were previously friendly to Emancipation, to entertain a contrary opinion. Am ong the Presbyterians of the North of Ireland, one man out of every ten not be found to do so at present. He admitte d who formerly signed a petition in favour of the Catholics not Association was a most powerful Body—the whole population, Peers, Hierarchy, Priests, and Laity were identitie with it, and if the Catholics were first admitted to Parliament, the As- sociation would next demand that they be admitted to the Great Offices of State. It would then demand a restitution of -the Church property for the Catholic Church, which was the god of its idolatry, and if refused would take it, and shake the title to all the property in the country. The Hon. Member concluded by reading an extract from a speech of the present Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench in Ireland, in 1811, when Solicitor-General, and which lie applied to the Catholic Association, assuring the House that the Bill had his firm support. Sir JAMES M-ACKINTOSH always listened with plea sure to the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and to the Hon. Member behind him (Mr. Dawson), as be consi dered them the able advocates o a too powerful party in Ireland. Ile should not, however, formally reply to either of those Honourable Gentlemen, as the tone which they had adopted savoured so much of ie acrimony of. political feel ing in Ireland that it would he unwise for a British Legisla tor to imbibe any portion of it in treating what he thought the most important question that ever came before that House. The Hon. Member, however, who last sat down, had made i one most momentous—one most honourable avowal.—(Cheers.) His (Sir J. Mackintosh's) object in rising was to enter his so lemn and earnest protest against this Rill as a stigma upon the Catholic cause ; and as the means of silencing complaints with out redressing wrongs. He rose to protest against it as a pretext to relieve his Majesty's Government from the ne cessity of doing justice to Ireland, and enable them to con tinue a system of temporising with that unfortunate coun try.—( Hear, hear !)—He acted thus, as his Right Honourable Friend (llr. Tierney) had stated on a former night, not from any predilection for the Catholics, but as the friend of civil and religious liberty. As a Protestant, he gloried in the Re formation, although he could not approve of the rapine which followed it. The great benefit conferred on mankind by that event was, that it established the right of private judgment on all questions. Those who denied that right now were Papists in Protestant clothing, and would establish small Poperics, instead of the great popery which once trampled on mankind.— (Hear, hear !)—At a former period he himself should have been a moral enemy of the Catholics, and had lie then lived and been so called upon, would have drawn his sword against them at the battle of the Boyne. The principles of the Revo lution of 16811 were his creed—in them he had lived, anti in them he trusted lie should die—for they were founded on civil and religious liberty. He should therefore oppose this new attack on the Catholic cause. For the last thirty years the ablest men of the country had adopted two modes by which the evils of Ireland might he removed. The one looked at the subject superficially, and recommended a treatment by penalties: the other took a deeper and comprehensive view, and wished to negociate a reconciliation of the people—( Hear, hear !)_. by giving them equal rights. This was the only ground of .necessity or strong expediency on which Mr. Pitt propoSed to bring about the Union. The Union of Scotland was effected to confirm the House of Hanover on the British throne; but the Union with Ireland to conciliate the two great parties of the country. In 1805, when Lord Grenville presented the first petiton to the House of Lords from the Catholics, he said that he only performed a duty impcked by the Act of Union. Every man of talent (with one splendid exception) had taken the same side of the question, and be did not believe that the people of England were disposed to exclude the Catholics from their civil rights. What then were the Catholics to think in the 25th year of the Union, when they found his Majesty's Ministers repeat ing the stale tricks of plots and Convention Acts, and commenc ing a series of scuffles and contentions, when there could be no honour in victory, but great danger in defeat. The Hon. anti Learned Attorney-General for Ireland had divided his argu ment into three heads. The first was, that the present Bill aid not trench on popular rights; the second, that it did not go to injure the Catholic Cause; and the third, that it was founded on necessity ; that it rested on the sales populi which was supremo lee. If the latter was correct, the other grounds were superfluous. Necessity though " The plea of tyrants and the creed of slaves," was an obstacle not to he surmounted—to begin then with that suprenza lex in the present case the sole lee. He (Sir James Mackintosh) did not deny that associations, covenants, and leagues which tended to separate one class of the people from another, were extremely injurious. But lie would ask any Gen tleman if any such things ever existed in any sound state of so ciety. The Honourable Member for Derry (Mr. Dawson) said that the history "of Ireland was the history of Associations. The reason was plain—the law was impotent, because the Govern met wanted power. But were such Associations ever put down by coercion ? They were told that the question was, whether ' there was any necessity for this measure, not whether it was convenient. But against this mode of stating the question he protested. What were the common ingredients of the danger as sumed to exist in the Catholic Association, and stated to Parlia liament as the grounds for the presentapplication ? These were -Ist. The mischief intended ; 2d. The mischiefdone; and, 3d.The dangerous language spoken, and so forth. Now, with respecs to the mischief intended, lie should call upon his Learned Friend, the Attorney-General for Ireland, to refute that ground of argument; for he had honourably and distinctly acquitted the Catholics of all bad intentions, as well as every individual in the Association. He had even gone on to establish this upon the foundation of argument, observing with respect to Mr. O'Connell that his station and interest in society, and his amiable qualities in private life, negatived such a charge. That individual, who was about to become celebrated as the object of this measure and all these debates, was con sidered by his Right Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Plunkett) to have given sufficient pledges of his innocence.— Then as to the question of mischief done—all that they had be fore them, under this head of charge, were two trials, which had been selected from the whole mass of evidence that had conic to the Castle at Dublin. And what were these ?—they were acquittals.—(Hear, hear !) Thus then there was no actual disturbance of the administration of justice; and so far from the interference of the Catholic Association being regarded as an evil, the Judge thanked them for their services. And these were considered sufficient grounds for this application to Par liament to suppress that body. He had been somewhat alarm ed, lie confessed, when he heard the Right Honourable Se cretary for the 'Home Department draw a parallel betwixt this Catholic Association and an Association in this country for the pretended administration of justice. The case of the Constitutional Association, or rather the Bridge-street Gang, alluded to by the Right Honourable Gentleman was this : The present Lord Mayor of London was some years ago a member of this Association ; it happened that he became a Sheriff, and in that capacity had to return the jury in the trial of a man called Dolby, under an indictment preferred by the Association. The consequence was, that the whole array was challenged, as returned by a partial officer, and the case lapsed pro defectupiratoruni. Now this was the case brought forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and it was at once ob vious that by the introduction of it he had fairly argued himself out of Court and the bill off the table. For, according to this fact, there could be no further prosecutions, and consequently there was no occasion for this hill.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—The next ground of necessity upon which this bill was founded, was, that many warm and indiscreet expressions had escaped from this Irish assembly during the eighteen months of their exist ence. He should not trouble himself to examine into the proof of this statement—if he admitted it, he admitted no more that what must attach to every meeting for the purpose of public discussion. There was still another ground intro duced into the argument for this application, upon which he should entreat the House to exercise their unbiassed candour. IVhen a body of men were stigmatized as criminals, it was their duty to weigh well every point of the evidence adduced against them. The charge to which lie alluded consisted of two sentences, picked out of a long address issued by the Ca tholic Association to the people of Ireland about the begin ning of December last. H e had carefully read over the whole of this address, and the opinion of any Gentleman in that House, who would do the same without any preconceived no. tion, must be that if these two passages were left out, the whole would appear to be written in the spirit of conciliation, and to proceed from a desire to restore peace, order, and harmony, to Ireland.—( Hear, hear !)—He confidently asked if this was not a strong proof of party spirit to endeavour to place it in any other light. He wa s sorry that so gr ea t a cr i t i c in language as the Ri g ht Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. S ecretary C ann i ng) should have lent himself to s uc h an i nterpretation. The first of the sentences quoted was a dissuasive from outrage, telling 'the people that violence led to the loss of the lives of innocent men. It conjured them to think how many trans portations and deaths of innocent people had been caused by Whiteboy crimes. Many, they said, would accuse the l aws ; but the fact was, that these evils were the results or the passions necessarily aroused in such a state of things. What was this, lie asked, but a vindication of the laws ? With what anxious care had they refrained from the least approach to any topic which might inflame the minds of the men whom they addressed ; and with what effect might they not have so ad tehoepyl e not dressed these inen_th e ver y p ersons t h at were guilty of the crimes denounced i n t hi s pa p er ? N ot a word was there about the Insurrection A ct—t h e a dd ress a b sta i ned from the common upon writers place even of i n f ormers . H ow p opu l ar would this have made the n w t 'There was ein n iscoanndtenwthaotf had in human w r iti ng o f a more g l ar i ng di stortion from the sense of pure En g li s h t h an t h a t ma d e b y t h e Right Hon. Gentle manplayinginstance in allusion to this address. If the House would read it deliberately they would come to the same conclusion. With respect to the particular word " hate," he would detain the House by a few observations. Exaggeration, he knew, was resorted to amongst other means of m a ki ng an impression by great debates. In this respect the Right Hon. Gentleman op. posite was something like Dryden's Critics, who enhanced the rules they endeavoured to enforce, by furnishing in their own persons a violation of those rules. They might remember that it was related of Dr. Johnson that' in speaking of one of his friends he said he was a Tod hater, fo r h e h a ted a Whig and m a Scotchan.—(Laughter. —New lie did not happen to have been a Member of the Clu , but if he had been, h e should have t taken much pains to conquer his double hatred against himsel, either as a Whig or as a Scotchman ; for surely the Doct. i would have thought him a notorious fool if he h a d f or a mome nt given in to the thought that his hatred of those two characters would have at all applied to him in the Doctor's estimation. It was not true that by hatred of a party, the individuals of that party were meant He (Sir J. M ac ki n t os h) m i g ht sa y, and it would be a very natural way of expressing his opinion, that he hated Tories. Nevertheless he entertained a high re spect and friendship for many of that persuasion,•although it was one of the novelties of this age, that individuals began to take to themselves that appellation which ever since the ac cession of the House of Hanover, had been applied as a term_ of reproach. Indeed, accordin g to the' comfnon rules for un= derstanding plain English, the authors of the address to which he was alluding, meant by thii phrase that they hated that - system which was upheld by the Hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Brownlow), and this was their only meaning: No man could be blamed for attributing, in an historical memoir, the evils of Ireland, to the hatred and animosity of the two parties by which she was divided. It was the natural course of an immoral state of things to raise one vice against another and virtue always became the gainer by a civil war amongst the vices. " Enlisting passion on the side of peace," the Ca , tholic Association said, 4 by this principle, vicious in itself, we propose to make you virtuous," anti it was most trite anti undeniable that a pacific and conciliatory spirit eminently distinguished this production.—( Hear, hear, hear !)—The Ho= nourable Gentleman who had spoken last had very candidly let them into the secret, that this measure was directed solely against the Catholic Association—that it had the art of pre= tending to be levelled against all Associations ; but that the Orange body were not meant to be touched by it. In this avowed object was evinced a false and narrow policy, ,by which it was attempted to humbug them into the idea that this _ was an equal law, whereas it was most unfair and partial in its operation. The Hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Brownlow) had told than that this Bill was directed against them in the spirit of a severe father who would physic one child to induce the other to take the bitter cup more kindly. Now he (Sit James Mackintosh) was a father, and he was sorry to say a grandfather—(A laugh);—and the mode he should adopt in case of sickness would be a very different one from that spoken of by the Hon. Member. To those that were not sick he would give a little agreeable lemonade, and tell the patient that the physic cup contained the same mixture. Thus would he pat the Orangeman on the shoulder anti tell him " you must take this, but your poor sister must take physic in earnest, and in the meantime you will make wry faces as though your portiori were the same as hers —(Laughter.)—Thus it was with the' Hon. Member for Armagh—he said " the lemonade is all for us, the wormwood of our sister"--(Hear, hear !)—This was another instance of the inequality and injustice of this proposed measure. The Orangemen engrossed all power in Ireland, they occupied the high places, and represented all the legal • dignity of the land. Their union in Orange Societies was only to enable them the more easily to enlist and collect their de pendents. Inaction was no evil to a body in possession of mo nopoly, but to those who had their right to gain the penalty • of inaction was a death blow. Here again, therefore, appeared i the flagrant inequality of this law.—(Hear, hear !)—The Orangeman who held the strings of power and had nothing more to gain, might very well assent to repose in contented inactivity, provided his opponent were f orce d t o o b serve t he same abstinence. In order to attain this end, his Learned , Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland was obliged to have recourse to a case of imaginary, speculative, and contingent ' danger. He rested his case entirely upon what might happen- '. The Catholic Association might become a powerful body, anti i they might be hurried into acts of violence, and so on. This, however, was the first time time the proposition had ever been made to coerce six millions of men, because the powers held by some of them might be dangerously abused. In the first head of his argument, his Learned Friend told them that this measure was no encroachment upon the popular principles of that House. This was really a most chivalrous attempt of ~ his in a hopeless cause. To make such an assertion with re spect to a new limitation of the ancient sight of meeting, . which was the drift of this measure, was as distinct a contra diction in terms, as it would be to say that the whole is n ot equal to its parts. Whether the measures were expedient, Or • wise, or not, the House must set out with the indisputable fee that this was an innovation of the nature he had described- Then, as to its not infringing the popular rights of the House, his (Sir James Mackintosh's) side of the House, which he esteemed to be the popular side, was never found introducing Bills for the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, • for restrictions on the Press, or the rights of meeting ; and now they were found opposed to this measure. The Right Hon- Secretary for Foreign Affairs was perfectly welcome to claint the measure as his thunder. But should he not claim to disavow it in the name of that people from whom, and by whom, all Kings and Parliaments hold their power ?--- still less should he be prevented from making known its inva sion of those rights which Englishmen knew in practice, bat which the unhappy people of Ireland knaw only in theory. Ile scarcely knew to whom he was to address his arguments Lippe this occasion, the measure being supported by an unnatural co alition of the friends and enemies of the Catholics. He would , however, decide upon making the friends of the Catholics his audience, and to them he should address whatever observation 9 he had to make upon the measure. It was one of the hardest lessons of human wisdom to profit by the reproaches of menj but it was one of the grea t es t a cts of f o lly i mp li c i t l y to yie'''' to their advice. He should not, therefore, be expected to telte the. advice of the Hon. Member for Armagh. It had been sant,. that the Catholic Association interrupted the a dmini s t r ation 0 ' justice. This certainly was calculated to make a strong impres . sion upon the Parliament and people of England, with 1010 0 there was so much jealousy upon that topic. But the first wit ness he should call upon that point was the Learned AttorneY- General for Ireland. In the'year 1323, there had been an en' quiry in that House into the conduct of the Sheriff's of Dublin , an enquiry which no man would forget on account of its tediou s anti fruitless character. Having reminded the Right Hon. Gentleman of this enquiry, a case of gross interference in the administration of the laws, lie would wish to ask him whetb,e_', he thought a little interference in the return of Juries by 0 .,` adverse party just t o restore the b alance would be of Or harm. Although this would be an evil in itself, it would be one evil corrected by another. There was an illegal authority _ triumphing over t h e Parl i ament and the laws, which ought to be suppressed. This was the natural effect of the laws beirlii: . administered by the conquerors to a conquered, hated, &tau t ed, and despised peopl e .—(H ear , h ear ! ) —Th e ev il s w hi c h fiat flowed from such a s t a t e o f t hi ngs natura ll y resu l te d f ro m 0e constitution of human society, and were foretold by till history , and the ex p er i ence o f a ll ages. I t wou ld b e a va i n a ttempt idle pan eg y r i c to exempt any b o d y o f men from the com M e. ' i; infirmities of our nature ; a n d it would be a miracle nine _ more miraculous than any of t h e p re t en d e d m i rac l es o f Prince Ilolienlohe, if so much contempt and detestation as was evince(' ' by the Protestants of Ireland towards their Catholic fellow' subject, did not beget simil a r f ee li ngs . N o t w i t h sta nding th i l . • language, he might mak e a n h onoura bl e except i on o f one in" i ; vidual, Chief Justice Bush, a name k nown to many in this House. He had withstood the shocks of party and the disturb antes created in a country to rn by h ost il e f act i ons . There was no man who combined the brighter ornaments of' i n tellect ; with those graver qualities w hi c h fitted him for the high dutie s of his station, and he had preserved the amenity of his manner i ; and the integrity of his he ar t, am id s t a ll th e storms b y whir_ his country had been vi s it e d in hi s ' t i me . If lie were oblige d to name any other like him he should have to travel the vtorlul • and the only person he could promote to so great a n honou r would be the Chancellor of the Propaganda. It had already been stated, and the Hon. M em b er f or A rmag h h a d con fesse4 that this Bill was a v i c to r y aga i ns t th e C at h o li cs . This . • must take to be so, coming from such authority, for he 1 - 11 13 4 contend that each party knew their own inter es t s . Th e Rig'_:, Honourable Secretary opposite (Mr. Secretary Peel) told tli,w that the wisdom of Parliament ought to keep pace with tZ ingenuity of invention. But the question was, how this CO' be accomplished. The Convention Act was a measure 0 , 1 , , similar nature to this ; but it was insufficient ; and if the C ar tholics should still continue to maintain their confidence in the 4 leaders, some other Bill would become necessary. Thus nl '' would go on until a Bill were introduced to prevent them 1 .0 ., speaking upon their own aff a i rs , le.ast it lead to a new conslle V racy. 'The Boston Port Bill was introduced into that 002 ch u by motives ten thousand ti mes stronger t h an those wolto. brought this Bill forward ; b u t i t was oppose d , b e c ause it ig„g said it would rouse ani mos i ty , M r. Burke, i n a speech ~ , Bristol, observed that it was t h e ten d ency o f t h at B ill to yrv yoke discussion, that cause d hi s greatest ob j ection to i t. ~0 He was ready to ad m i t , t h at when rel i g i on entered into bit, discussions or proc ee di ngs o f a b ody, the danger became Oleo manifest. Religion in its ordinary operation was powerful a preserve and bless—when perverted, it was all powerful 3 1 0 shook the frame of society. In this respect he was readY,,,,a acknowledge th a t t h e Cathol i c Associat i on was surroully;i, with difficulties. But i n p ro p ort i on as t h e i ntro d uct i on o f re` , gion was dang erous , t h e tamper i ng w i th i t was doubly de s , - gerous. In s uc h a case coercive measures were more perilou The Popery Laws had been admirably described by his 11° 11 Friend, the Member for Bramber (Mr. W. ‘Vilberfore e 2; whose absence from die House no one deplored more than ' l 4 did. He ch aracter i ze d t h ese laws as affecting the Catholics Ireland th e same w ay as t h e pr i son dress of felons who were i ti" it burl and yet cond emne d to carry a b out t h em t h e b adges o f and of cond emnat i on . — ( H ear !) — Thi s was the case w i t h i re , to land. To i nsu l t a man i n t h at wh i ch he most revered, not only ] insult but to p un i s h, by d e p r i v i ng hi m o f hi s on l y consolati'l and chief hope ; the excluding him from honours a nlons o s ,l men, on account of his r e li g i on , was moat crue l, uselesst f t e i ' tyrannical. The Catholic wa s in su lt e d, and c i v illy disqualw„4 from every thing he held m os t d ear an d venerate d b y him; s it was this that gave pe r m a n e n c y t o th e i r complaints. Inc