The Sun. — London, England, 1831-02-22 00:00:00

good old abuses. and port and prejuJ all wish to embart ich embarrassment of Lt large. Such was t it was always fbu )vernment, of whoo N'uble Earl proceeded 1 had talked of the h e lisposition to embarn howsoever it might' the Noble Earl b' in odd one, when so ft ision of Parliament hi low was, and had rais s ituation. T he err a men t with a great err, se of those who thoug, ''ghly desir able to ma tt 4'.1. But why 05 iis ? Ile by no ,n ea` stain much injury • The addition tonal . t at he doubted if it al in this coun try. , i time, been dimii•W ° oduct of the very Or s r 'as a breach of the tre therefore, he cotild ree and politics statj • lie was not prep.an°. of the new rep la NO Pa s . believed that the , istaken in s uppmi n g of our tra de with i ro, le re v e nue would V t the twonext years, sir , Is persuaded that 0 e 'r the general eom merc s' ke said that 0 t, th our ancient a ll y' 2iiinsula. How he with the Spani,b P°l d, that if the Metbol, no doubt that we she°, ad done. The aue,ti.l eaty of 1510 such an! treaty as depriveiq treaty we enjoyed? p b y the subsel",ee eierred, and vve re [tad before. Hoag it h e be be best discussed sc/3 cape before then. sunder of a treat), t e d been fully expo t, the Woolsack. /',l! must be recollectea `uP rt of Portugal. It sed°lli ~: ese expounder, sit„Dl - ;ood as that of the P,t4 he effect if both of t'ot old have been all te n it arose about the 01, 'hick he bad to rePreii, Lord then stated t°o4. intended to have i''' I to it, hut eau' tho nfluenee so violentl)ti,e, ly introduced ; am nia ' :o argue that the +,bitt by a stipulation Th e answer Via9'ir/ macy when he OW sots nt and knowledge;;0111 :ted that such a Oi nt iitted that it Was it. t Noble Viscount 00, dished. This was suo, yet this was t he P t v h >ld their LordsiP',,,,' Iclied by its preseO t ; tt Y list, the vexatious ' i d 0 . I complained of; s it fo r yes on that subject'r, s to the general nattiept Issed when it cara e tb 'ime, be vvould sat , bi • it we were daiagid• it be done without u'o:ei .they pu litical or 0 1 '. i l l he bad no objectioa;er 'elative to this 01,401, n the Tagus, the 1p feeling the ill< 0 Ind if the Noble Si must he taken ar t :bal i amented that it ' b Earl or any a ne el o Os which British d e alt , t' ad nothing to do jf •ect to say that he ha d lc article intradueco He had tried , bet b 6,1 'ding w hat his IC();; : had said respeet'u%g he had said atit'i,, the contrary , 115 c/ l Lintance between ;a iend had coname ea her secretaries, liviZji ane—(A loud lia.grt'op had been less If I he retnernbere'ot- se e — (A s of West India ent opinions of his lot despair, if tbel o f wring, in 1,951, rt, ilia slavery and vith Portugal• are declared that he .1 his views either d a sugar. A g put and car riew livision. loi 4 t, O. Ie .AQ , e 5 emulat e d by ever y N o bl eman i n the empire— h,..")--but m us t o bj ect even to hi s possessing the power Of Ruminating whom he pleased for any borough. i t lr • O'CONNELL said he should move an adjourn etict of the House every night at a quarter past eleven. 14, HUNT said lie should woad the motion. A '"hy Alderman (Waithinan) had complained of long being i n fli c t e d on th e Hou-€.; now he (Mr. Af ,i n ) Was present the other evening when tbe Worthy rn '"r , inflicted a speech that dro,e the whok House ° lit of the liouse.—(Great laughter.) SUPPLY. ALTHORP moved that the House resolve itself 0 , Commi ttee o f S upp ! y . ,n the motion being put from the Chair, s ai l J . GRAHAM said, although unwilling to intrude l„ d r i i ,"lhject of a private nature., he hoped the House would I . 4 "ge hint for a fete ininute.—(lle:r, hear, hear.)- 14,1 t ., ll uded to some extemporaneous o;,servations that ti, tram him on a firmer right., when he used Our "demagogue." Ho had been asked to expliin tb, ' , 11.1 he meant by that tin:). He was now able to state 4 1 when he made use of the word, it was not in li e ' re4 ee to the Hon. Member for Clarl.—(Hear, hear.) not at. the lime aware that the Hon. Member ia '4E4 behi n d hi m . —(Crie s of bear.) Si) far he st.it ,, d LrdinAtitohmopliance with the wishes of his Noble ad ow n rp. What he was about to add he did of his a ceurd, namely, that he did use the expression reference to another Member of that House whom he 117" in his plane. And when he recollected that that • 1\1 1' 1 111)er was not , at that moment present—when lie t4t"lleet,d cert a in decl 'rations of his which ought to make Bon, m,,,,b er no less ciutious in the language he em "Yed towarrls others than it ought to make every gentle cautious is the language they ernAoyed towards th e l 'nore especially when he (Sir J. G.) recollected 6„; D"ition in which he stood with reference to his „'"tYa Government, he frankly and freely confessed as sorry th at express i on haul escaped from his lips. t n " L i r. HART DAVIS understood the Hon. Baronet hay stat e d nearly as much the ether evening, for a'ter „" 4 ig us e d the word dent .gegue, he stated he should not f t :i tinu e to use it, as it might give rise to unpleasant but would use the term certain agitators. O'CONNELL thought he might be permitted to "e word. Il oned been most unexpectedly alluded to j); the Hon. 80. Until lie hid heard what had u't f allen from him, he did not think that the Honour able 1 1 ; 41 ernnet meant to use one word in reference to - P P l a nati , .n, he making an thoaupght ology the Honou to anoth er rahle Bi, or offronet -ring ,I i ) no right to a llud e to him. He (Mr. O'Con li I td never used any language, either in that "e or elsewhere, that he was not prepared, when tall, l. . „ t upon as a Christian, to support. Trutk was "!Y guide he bad. The Honourable Baronet had *Ken of the situation in which lie (Mr. O'C.) stood with I' l:P e et to his M , jesty's Government. He hid hoped to 111', arrived to-day at the time to have turn --he should take especial s care s to arrive early n : u e gh for it to-morrow, in order . that he might the Opportunity of stating most distinctly the situa t;" ni Whi c h h e rea lly did s t an d w ith re f eren c e to the Go :i-nr,"ent, and which he did not think was rightly under " • In conc l us i on , as t o th e H on . B arone t' s thi n king it th! c e a " : j a rY to explain to him, he certainly had not the le , st p , c en to say any thing in reference to him (Mr. onnell). DUTIES ON COTTON. j e j e, lle , CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged fo N , before the Noble Marquis (Chacdos) opposite brought ,d a lo t r d ti his motion respecting the West Indian sugar duties, eto_ to y . state the arrangements which Ministers ha I t i je ' e) with respect to the duty on cotton. He had de sai,%n a former occa,ion to state those arrangements, M an cheste r th e result of a conference with a ,teputtion of ail cotton-manufacturers on the subject. He had h ad t hat conference since he last addressed the House, and 01tri. eorne to a settlement quite satisfactory to these gent'e ..re His plan was this :—He proposed to substitute for d u P t ,. present 6 per cent. ad ralorem duty on printed calicoes, Wi t h' °t of ld. per pound on all imports of raw cotton, fro nut he n t u tstoy drawback export duty—exeer ing, of course, operation of the tax, the cotton of our East Indian aind Ot her 4B possessions. He meant also, for reasons which duty.')"' state on another occasion, to allow the drawback g il l operate for three months. t ow R. PEEL was understood to ask the Noble Lord „," meant to make good the loss to the revenue from the r e d u cti o n of duty on printed calicoes? th s CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that h e Znount of the East India duty was so trifling, as to li sts : l ' o st beneath consideration. The amount of the other e s ,or ii ‘ . _vould not make up the loss in question ; but the p t i 4 ,_" ‘ t of that duty, together with that of the duty on 1'17: calicoes, would make it up. tie he of CHANDOS was sorry to learn that J'ancellor of the Exchequer had stated that it was li t ii ° '"ilde for him to extend any hope of relief to the West U inistiterest. He could assure the House that the dis tsyer:, and which that interest was now suffering was very Op oott.,. that it was owing to the heavy duty imposed r . ta avi n .s 't sugar as a war tax, which ought to have been ro ts , ° when the war ceased. He therefore now came trS4rd to ask the Government publicly, to take the sf re Z v shgar duti e s i n t o their consideration, with a view ilras td, nig them. Such a measure might evidently be les ser as it was quite clear to the must unreflecting ob- Qa a the finance plan of Government fur the year sf t h• Y e e t u nformed.—(Hear.) He called on such Members !tes t i os e 'erument as had formerly joined with him in ad_ he allu lt . he claims of the West India body to relief (and 71 , t ,L e iparticularly to the Vice-President of the Board ;. v ese , an to consider what their former opinions had e tltie _ a stand by them at present. The Right Hon. ",ht st i d ` n n had said, that though he was no planter, he 'er est at all times he ready to support the West India in -snfl had then put it to the House whether the 4 st h ee "nduct of t h e G overnmen t on thi s question had ' . (2te kle _ n c, oarked by a vac ill a ti o n most injurious to the 'lt 1 ; 1 41 interest s o f th e country.—(Hear, hear.)— res eeo ry call e d upon t h e Ri g ht H un . Gentleman to ! l lte s t he pledge which he had given when out of to ce'nr an d to consider whether he ought not to join him Itsr s . ing the Government to protect the West India ` ll ffi ce - :, pe Th e Right Hon. Gentleman who now filled the 41 16, 1140 esident of the Board of Controul, had also voted „ eh% sod °o this subject in the last Session of Parlia fial• " t 4po sies ! j 'aul been one of the minority of 144 who had INS, Fil:0 9 ! ( tlv 'tee tai3t : reduction of the sugar duties. Under these w° 11 . ne " he felt himself justified in calling upon these LCTION. t his 0 1 4 n of I / at om Gentlemen to assist hin, in relieving the the report rea l T o res ,nsta i n , declared Lord ye , , 0 _ erect, and also the people of England, by h a d, but that tn o so' Si eon of sugar duties. He was anxious to see the e!, thoui n settled ; and won's' gladly support any plan ivolous nor s l ' l3 settlement of it, consistent with tire safety of the 2,T lON. l 'i n s ii ii . j oo :a h n , d the well-being of the mother country. In con p the report Of tij N e yri' Vr he is wo v.ealled upon the House, as a boon to the West dared the sitt ing ti _ ll ho u l d ule % to give its assent to the motion with which „„s r .cal or t , conclud e namely —t` That the distressed comb- ECTI O O f N th . e cog l e ',s l Irie T eat planters demands the serious and e ra p m oit the sitdosos naideration of this House, with a view to their lorries DeeriPg l k , r Sl • Dr , o il 1 , 41 1 r. D OUGLAS seconded the motion. i s h .HoNISON was surprised at the mode in as ordered £0 std ti" th. effect , o l:t(!lile Marquis had introduced this motion, for return. ;op ~• r e " r it, if carried, would be a stoppage of the sup tnted a pet° •1 Y .e, t,,_ l,ad Coo°" been no indisposition shown by the Go•• rnmon it se ° inquire into the ndition of the West India it laws. , to' 'ar o • • It sots I v o , w ould have been more suitable if the Nos le Ls supported, o'sr . hi ' ds tre ' proposed at once a csmmittee of inquiry into Smith, 3lt' iot eSt of the West India interests, or if he had put tercel to a le s m il pp i nto any 10 t ins,,St le „_ td theother than its present shape, which o s i s:n d4 , , t n •- • The pe o s of t stint end Government to meet it with opposition. hs en that the e pursued on tins subject He was gir' d $ 0 7, 11 at estl - ''verri ts o doc e ed it t , I , nt was a s st und course. If it had not t to intr .I . 3ct siS w at ers it the reduction of duty sought by the West India I great bay s if ilvaiis because it had not seen any means of doing • 0, 14 ",11 0 ,i y, ` i _ l ad not acceded to the proposals made by the ted praylog lii iiri !lr,,, ld `_ . was because it found either that those ;ion frothy mr , themsel ves, be attended with beneficial results to the son ro .0 see or that, if those proposals were bene epleaonuters, they were injurious to the other in put a stop er p tit i i c ie % , f; ntry. The Noble Marquis had only done ed ant e, e es to en he said that he (Mr. P. Thomson) was ing that d i so d P o o t,:tten, , Promote the West India interests. The only • Duli° Dos° IS cr n Lich uu tween • • in t icii ro , - th e lis sentiments at present and at the time wtition fr Tv reo e, hle Marquis alluded was this—that lie iatnent . • the, e t• stije " et sacrifice the interests of one class of his Ma gh their u" vva , e - "t that to promote the interests of another. He f t ' 4 Sie the Noble Marquis laboured under a mistake e franchise ,of the ereature he (Mr. P. Thomson) had supported him he please.tlop4 ki n est io ' n, of Chacdos) in the motion which he made ented pet , . po p ii for the Noble Marquis had divided in a smab !lased that ,orb Of tuber.pr i ' le wil , !e . h he (Mr. P . Thomson) was net a e isbis n the t , n o c t'f t t opo,i t • k'ur. P. Thomson) had divided in favour an frocc° bill .11 f esN l un, which, though it was different from that ; avote DY ofi t ts tif the s "le Ma e • Or the ,iorir 0 , still in favour of the reduction let tire Y e !,'; t honeor hst I. ttl t o "gar. For that ss, "" I r, s t , at t hat t• again, if proposition he should be wt . ], pa b '' 1 .1 / 00,, •,, 1 ,, at t i w _ 1::::rocbtYlo." th u s 's it could be carried into effect with .b the L a tic' Th e e , a O. breach of faith with the national cre end to li e(° , r , s* „ of t ', ,rna niee u v ,7,ll ftl' e drlY ' t Vat 0 hie Marquis ought, however, to recoi l! ti /be ti tne ared h is n otri i° 0 1 , 4 ot he when he supported thatproposition, r oust take th e ,, tir ,) t k nnw , to reduce any tax ; and the /H e r, 11 ' , s eer, "tli tt 'Shle it it recollected any thing that fell from ussoo olios c ev s o t han an Individual as himself, that i.e preferred the in e n , n rf "ikl of the du • the mo st t so dsst Of rue du duties on several other articles to the re :olitical t Y on sugars. Besides, his Noble F,tiend ii o'clock. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had only a small surplus at present for the repeal of taxes, and he would therefore put to the House, whether it was not better to reduce the tax on caindles and sea-borne coal than the tax on sugar ? (Hear hear.) He had never advocated the repeal of the sugar tax as a benefit to the West India planters, but as a benefit to the consumers. He contended that the reduc tion of the whole duty on sugars would be no benefit to the planters, unless they could obtain that which would never be tolerated by the people of this country—a com plete monopoly of ti , e English market. He was glad to hear the Noble Marquis declare fiat he was anxious to have tie slave question settled. He assured the House, that no efforts should he wanting on the part of the Govern ment to settle that important question ; but until that trade was put a stop to, all attempts to reduce the sugar ditties must prove ineffectual, and ultimately abortive. Government bad devoted its most cateful attention to the subj e ct, and could divine no means of accomplishing the ob ject which theNobleLord had in view, except the settlement of t.he loog-agitated question of the slave trade. - Need he re mind gentlemen of the ciy raised throughout the country against the slave trade during the last general election ? He was sure he need not ; and although he, as an humble individual, had never joined in that cry, yet he could not be insensible of the vast importance of it. To have raised that cry might have been wrong ; it might have been injudiciously encourages; but they all knew well that the people had a right to approach tba- Housf, as pe tition,re, and to say, " How long will you allow your ',solution of 1823 to remain neglected ? How long will you allow your advice to be passed over unregarded ? How long will you allow your authority to be set at tionght ?" In a word, he hogged to assure the Noble Lord that the Govermnont had every disposition to do they could to relieve 'Jae distress complained of; and he trusted that the Noble Lord would see how much more desirable it was to helve the matter to that House, and to a Government so disposed, titan to persevere in this at tempt to impede thos•! supplies which were essential to the service of the State. Mr, HART DAVIS pet foctly coneurre,l in the cpi&on that if the duties were to be taken off rum and sugar, the whole of tie reduction would not go into the packets of the planters ; but then part of it would the that di rection, while the consumer would be greatly benefitted. lie did think the West India proprietors h,d a claim for r,lief—he did nr,t mean.ft,r any specific relief, but for stud' a relief as it should appear they were entitled to. He would take this opportunity of putting a question to the Noble Lord (Althorp) on a subject in which the public generally were greatly interested, and particularly his con stituents. The Noble Lord had expressed his intention of bringing in a Bill to prohibit the growth of tobacco in • Ireland. He begged to know whether the Noble Lord n eaut to introduce such a measure ? Fle would take the fl. sent opportunity also of asking the Noble Lord whether he intended to persist in his proposed duties on timber, or whether he meant to alter them; or whether—which would be far the most desirable course—the Nob!e Lord meant to a' , andon that part of his proposition altogether Mr. ROBINSON hoped that the Noble Lord would not hastily answer the question of the lion. Member for Bristol, with regard to the duties on timber, because, as the Noble Lord well knew, the pets:ins most interested in that part of the Noble Lord's proposition were about to submit certain considerations to the Government. As to the subject immediately under discu-sion, the No!de Lnrd who had brought it forward had esta bbshed that great &stress exist el in our West India colonies; and, indeed, that had not been denied by the Government. He strongly objected to a topic se irri tating as that of slavery being :nixed up with a question purely commercial, like the present. The chief ground of complaint of the West Indian proprietors was, as it ap peared to him, that there had been an infi action, on the peat of the executive Government, of a treaty entered into between the Government and the West Indian proprietors. The terms of that areement were, that the duties imposed were to be considered as a war tax, and that they should not be continued in time of peace. Ne vertheless, the duties had not been altered ; and this he considered as a just and strong ground of complaint. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was perfectly ready to adroit that the distress which existed in the \Vest India interest demanded serious attention, and should not have the slightest objection to agree to the ap pointment of a committee to inquire into the whole case. —( hear.) He objected to the rnntio❑ now before the House, because if met as such a motion ought to be met, it worm] be impossible that they could go into a Coni .nittee of supply. lie was bound to say that neither the Noble Lord nor the seconder of the motion hid in the least eegrt e exaggerated the distress complained of ; and he begged to assure the House that there was no man more ready than he was to alleviate that distress, if he saw the means of doing so.---( Hear.) But with all the considera tion which he had been able to give to the subject, and after the most arentive examination of all the circum stances connected with it by the Board of Trade, he must say that none of tie , propositions brought forward as re medies had appeared to the Government capable of being adopted consistently with the general interests of the country. He had been misunderstood with regard to what he had arid on a former• occasion with respect to the sugar duties. He hail said that he did not think that the reduction of the duty on sugar would confer any great be nefit on the planter, and he still adhered to that opinion. It was not necessary for• him on that occasion to en•er into his reasons for that opinion, especially' since his Right Hon. Friend near him Iran already stated then► to the House. Allow him, however, to say, that, in looking at the general taxation of the country, it did not appear to him that the duty on sugar ought to be the first tax to be taken off.—( Hear, hear.)—lt had generally been said in tiers House to any gentleman who proposed that a cer tain tax should be taken off,—" You must propose a sub stitute." Yet, gentlemen bad come forward that evening, who, after objecting to the taxes which he proposed to substitute for taxes which he had taken off, gravely asked him to take off another tax, namely, the sugar duty.— ( Hear, hear.)—Now, surely this was not reasonable. —(Hear.)—lle would put it to ',every Hon. Gentleman who heard him,—he would appeal even to the West Indian proprietors themselves,—whether it was not much more to the advantage of the country that the duty should be taken off coals and candles than off sugar.—(Cheers.)— As to the timber duties,—this, he admitted, was not the proper time for discussing his proposition with regard to them. As, however, when that subject came tinder dis c•ussion, he should be prepared to show that his proposition would not be injurious to Canada, he had no hesitation in stating now, in answer to the Hon. Member for Bristol, that it was not his intention to make the slightest altera tion in the proposed timber duties. Reverting to the mo tion of the Noble Lord, he had only to observe, that al though he felt it necessary to resist that motion, yet, if the Noble Lord thought that in a Committee any means of reconciling the conflicting interests could be devised, be certainly should not object to the appointment of such a Committee. Ile was quite sure that to reduce the duty on rum would militate against many important interests of this country ; and he was convinced, that if he had pro posed such a measure to the House, he should have pro posed it in vain —(Hear, hear.)—Before he sat down, he had to answer another question of the Hos. Member tor Bristol. It related to a measure respecting the growth of tobacco in Ireland. R hen he proposed to prohibit the growth of tobacco in Ireland, he was fully aware of the ohjecions which would be made in Ireland to such a course, yet as he proposed to accompany that prohibitory measure with such a reduction of duty on tobacco as would be acceptable to the population of Ireland as well as of England, he saw that he had a means of obviating the ob jections which would otherwise have been urged against prohibiting the growth of tobacco in Ireland. Circurn sturces had compiled him to abandon his plan for reducing the duty on tobacco, and, considering the present feeling in Ireland, Ile felt the prudence of postponing—and he post poned it with much regret—the measure for prohibiting the growth of tobacco in Ireland. Mr. HUME was convinced that the best thing that could be done would be to allow the introduction of East India sugar into competition with the West India sugar. This would do away with much ill-feeling, and would do no harm to the West Indian planter. He hoped that the Noble Lord who had brought forward this motion would withdraw it, and move for the appointment of a committee. Mr. C. GRANT need hardly say that he admitted the merits of the Noble Lord's motion ; but as it would ob• struct the Conunittee of Supply, he felt himself reluctantly compelled to oppose it. This was the only ground on which he took his stand in opposition to the Noble Lord. Allow him to suggest also to the Noble Lord that a Com mittee of Inquiry might be the best mode of proceeding. Mr. BERNAL should support the motion. This was a ease which had forced itself on the consideration of the House, and though he did not blame this Government more than any other Government, yet he must say that there had always been on the part of Governments a cu l pa bl e and neglectful ignorance with regard to the West Indian and colonial interests. The only reason that the West Indian interest bad endured their hardships so long was, that it was a weak interest. He did not think that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. P. Thomson) need have held out to them as a threat the public feeling on the subject of slavery. Ile was surprised to have beard his Right Hon. Friend say that he saw no means of re lieving the distress of the West Indian interest, except the settlement of the question of slavery. This from his Right Hon. Friend, whom he hail so often heard say that reduction of duty was ancillary to consumption. Would it he nothing to give to the cottat;ers of this country the luxury of sugar at a cheap rate? Would not this he an advant ige ? and would it not also be an advantage, both to the West. Indian proprietore zunl to the country, to take Off those restrictions which prevented the consumption of West Indi an produce in this country? As to the appoint ment of a Committee, it would lead to no good result. • Mr. C. GRANT said that nothing could have been further from his intention than to impute to the Noble Lard any factious or unworthy motive in bringing forward this motion. He had merely said that it interfered with the progress of important public business. As, however, they bad heard from the highest authority that this (Nee tioft against the motion was not a valid one, he had no hesitation in saying that he would vote for the motion of the Noble Lord.—(hear, hear.) Mr. P. THO3ISON denied that he had held out the cry against slavery as a threat ; and he was in the recol lec•ion of the House that he bad deprecated the revival of diet cry. Mr. WARBURTON should take the earliest opportu nity of moving that the House should resolve itself into Comini:tee upan the Acts prohibiting the growth of to bacco, with a view of devising a treasure respecting the growth of rob wet) in Ireland. Sir J. GRAHAM was sorry to say that he found him self utterly unable to adopt the course which his Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Controul had declare.' it to be his intention to follow. On the contiary, lot begged to assure the House, that if he stood alone, it was his firm determination to take the sense of the House, on the proposition of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.)_ He had neither the power nor the disposition to contradict the statement of the Noble Lord. He allowed that the distress described by the Noble Lord existed to the full ex tent of that description ; and although from the bottom of his heart he deplored it as much as any man could, yet allow him to assure the Noble Lord, that it had not escaped tile notice and consideration of the Government, in the review which they had felt it their duty to take of the state of the country and its colonies. So striking a fact as the distress complained of by the Noble Lord, and confirmed as it had been by PO many Hon. Gentlemen, could not, he was sure the House would see, have passed unnoticed by the Government. He was perfectly ready to admit that the motion of the Noble Lord would not ob struct the Committee of Supply ; but he had made too many of these motions himself not to know that it was intended to be, and would he considered to be, in the na ture of a censure upon the Government.—(Hear, and laughter.) Sure he was, that if the Government were deleanel upon it, it would be understood to-morrow, out of doors that the House had pissed a censure upon the Minivry. Reverting, then to the immediate point under discussion, the case stood thus :—The Government had reviewed the whole condition of the country and of its colonies. They had brought forward me., sures which, in their opinion, were best calculated to afford all possible relief consistently with keeping up the revenue to that point which was essential to the sufficiency of the public service. In this review they had come to the conclusion that to remit the duties on sea-borne coals and candles would give the most du sirable relief to the country at large. Now they had heard a great deal about the necessity of supporting public credit, and in spite of what had been said on this subject, allow hint to say that there was no man more jealous of the public credit being impaired than be was. If, however, gentlemen went en supporting every proposition for the reduction of taxation, they might talk as they would of the spotless honour of the country—they might declaim as loudly as they pleased against all infringements of public faith and public credit, —but he there plainly declared that such a course w a s al together inconsistent with the maintenance of the public faith and preservation of the national honour.—(Cheers.) —This being admitted, and it was too self-evident to be denied, the House had to judge whether, in the remission of taxation. it was or was not the duty of Government to take off the duty on coals and candles without loss of time.—(Hear, hear.)—lf this question were decided in the affirmative—if it were admitted that the public ser vice could not go on without a certain amount of revenue, arid that in remitting taxes, the best taxes haul been taken cif, the only remaining question was, whether the House would or would not support the Govern ment.—(Loud cheers.)—He repeated, that he did not negative the fact of the distress complained of, and if the Ministry remained in office, they would do their best to relieve it. Their earliest attention should be directed to it. At this juncture, however, and at this moment, it was utterly impossible that the Revenue could admit of the re mission of the sugar ditties : and he would not, therefore, hold forth the delusive expectation that the relief desired could be granted in this session of Parli invent. He would not detain the House any further. These were the cir cumstances of the case; and the question for the House to decide upon was this—whether the conduct of Government was such as to deserve their support and the confidence of the country. He did not hold it out as a threat, but he begged to assure the House that he spoke the sense of his cslleagues, when he said that they would not continue in office one moment after that House bad decided not to give them their support, and the country had withdrawn its confidence from them. He felt that he was most painfully situated in being compelled to differ from his Right lion. Friend the President of the Board of Control ; but he had higher duties to fulfil than those of friendship, and be threw himself fearlessly on the House for that support which he had always found straightforward conduct to receive there. —(Cheers.) He might have argued this question feebly, but be was quite sure that he had stated it honestly. Sir R. PEEL was bound to look to higher considera tions than those which the resignation of a Ministry in volved, however he might feel toward, that Ministry. The interest of his country should alone sway Mtn. He could not help expressing his deep regret that the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. P. Thomson) should have thought it necessary to have introduced a question so in flammatory as the slave question upon a matter which was purely fiscal and financial. He did not think that such a question as that should be mixed up with a financial question of this description : at the same time he would take leave to say, that they might depend upon it that the condition of the slaves, both morally and physically, would be improved by improving ti e condition of the West India planters.—( Hear, hear. )—The true way to promote the interests and add to the comfort of the slaves, was first by rest-icing prosperity to the West India islands. With re-aid to this motion, he (Sir R Peel) was placed in this difficulty—if he should vote for the resolution of the Noble Lord in the present state of the budget, he might be encouraging the expectation that some fiscal reducti on would be made f o r th e re li e f o f th e West Indian interests, which, hereafter, it would be found impossible to effect; and he therefore would recommend the Noble Lord to withdraw his motion. The Noble Lord opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had pledged himself to take off the coal duty and the candle duty; and he (Sir R. Peel) had not as yet heard a satisfactory ex planation as to the quarter upon Which the new taxes were to be imposed, or in what manner the deficiency they occasioned was to be supplied. In such a state of things, he must advert to the paramount necessity which existed, in the present times, for main taining the public credit inviolate.—(Hear.) And, im pressed as he was strongly with that necessity, he could not pledge himself to remove any portion of the revenue until he saw a certainty of its place being supplied. Upan that single ground he should find it impossible to vote for the motion of his Noble Friend, and he therefore hoped that his Noble Friend would nut put the resolutions to a vote that night, but that he would ccasent to withdraw his motion. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Gen tleman who had spoken last, that they should above all things take care to maintain the public credit—(Hear, hear)—and he only wished that the public faith had had so able an auxiliary when a tax upon the funds was pro posed, and when upon another occasion an equitable ad justment was spoken of.-...-(Cheers ) He was glad to hear such sentiments from the Right Hon. Baronet : he was delighted to hear him insist upon the paramount necessity of maintaining the public credit ; and it was upon the single ground of the publi c cre di t t h at h e (Si r i Robert Peel) was ndisposed to entertain this motion at present. It was not with reference to the state of parties, or to political considerations, but solely in re ference to the public credit, that he would not give his vote for the 'notion, and he trusted, therefore, that his Noble Friend would not persevere with it. With regard to the offer of the Committee, which haul been made by the Noble Lord opposite, he (Sir It. Peel) did not think that a select Committee upon the West India trade would do any good. At the same time be would say that there was no direct tax upon the comforts of the poor which it would be more desirable to reduce, if it were possible to do so, than the duty upon sugar. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had said that his Majesty's Ministers were determined to take their stand upon this motion to-night, and that if they went to a division, the vote should decide the fate of the ministry. if be (Sir Robert Peel) could consider it in that light, and if be had no other objection to their coming to a vote upon this motion, that alone would to him constitute a sufficient one. Feeling that there would he danger in the present state of the public revenue, and in the present state of the budg e t, to agree to the proposed resolutions, and thus pled ge the Government to reductions which it might not be possible hereafter to etlect, he should sit down with re peating, his request to Ws Noble Friend to withdraw hie motion. Mr. SYKES expressed his concurrence with the Right Hon. Baronet who had just 'eat down, as to the propriety of the N:hle Lord's withdrawing the present motion: Mr iIuNT thought that the duty in question was . so trifling- that there could beam possibl e dan ge r of commit..., tins; a breach of public faith by giving it up. He was of opinion that this wa , a•fair subject for inquiry. He was ready to return his cordial thanks to the Noble Lord oppo site (the Chancellor of the Exchequer!, for the reductions which he had already made. The Noble Lord had re l i - duced the duties on cols, candles, and newspapers, and had thus given us light, heat, and knowledge at a cheaper rate. The reduction, however, in the expenditure of tire country must go much further than was proposed. The present motion was of so indefinite a character, that he (Mr. Hunt) and those of his friends on that side of the llouse who represented and supported liberal principles, were determined to vote with his Majesty's Ministers, if the motion should go to a, division, and principally because they were so near the Ist of March.—(A laugh, and cries of " Hear, hear.") If they were not so near the lst of March, be should have found it difficult to decide as to his vote Qrl this occasion. The Marquis of CLIANDOS seeing th're was such a of or inion amongst his Majesty's Ministers en this subject, and more particularly as his object had been in a gre,it degree gained by the discussion which had taken place, should withdraw his motion for the present, pledging himself to follow it up upon a future occasion by anoth e r motion, whin he hoped that more unanimity n•ould exist amongst his Majesty's Ministers on this question. The motion wa , then withdrawn. SUPPLY OF ARMS TO FRANCE. The Order of the 1) y was then read, and on the motion that the !louse should go into Committee of Supply, An lI6N. MEMBER wished to put a question to the Noble Lord opposite : he wished to know whether the statement which hid appeared in the public papers was correct—namely, that a considerable quantity of arms had been issued from his Majesty's stores in the Tower of Lon don, destined for the use of the Government of France? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said. that the facts of the case were simply these. A contract had been entered into by the manufacturers of Birmingham to supply the Frenelt Government with a certain quantity of arms. The manufacturers applied to his Majesty's Go vernment for permission to take a certain quantity of arms out of his Majesty's stores, to meet their contract, e❑gaging to supply their place, and at the same time stating that by being allowed to do so they would be enabled to give V.'ork to a large number of persons who were out of employment in Birmingham. The supply was provided, and the manufacturers had now made an other demand for a larger quantity of arms, which was at present under the consideration of his Majesty's Govern ment. Sir G. WARRENDER inquired whether the contract had been made with the present Board of Ordmmee ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied in the negative. Sir G. CLERK said that before they went into Com mittee of Supply upon the army estimates, he was anxious that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should make that statement which he had omitted to make in his st itement on the Budget—namely, as to the amount of the several estimates for the various services for the present year. He was of opinion that, instead of having so small a ►urplus as the Noble Lord propoaed to have, he should en 'eavour, if pos , ible, to increase the surplus of his predecessor. The CLIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could nit well ttio:wer the question just now, as lie could not refer t the figures which would enable him to do so. He had stated, in opening his financial statement, the full amount of the estimates for the current ye4r, as nearly as it was possible to do so. He had stated that amount at 46,950,000/. He would now repeat that that was the estimate, within a few hundred pounds, of the total ex penditure for the year. He was ready to admit that one way in which r, duction had been made was in the reduc tion of the 4i per Cents., which was a measure or the 10 mer Government. He Was also bound to give credit to his nredecessor for the surplus which would accrue from the reductkm of the duty on beer, in consequence of the increased con•utnption of malt. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was satisfied that the result of the re ductions of taxes which he had proposed would be an in crease to the revenue. Air. GOULBUItN much douldcd, when those estimates came under consideration, whether the Noble Lord would be aide to effect any of the reductions which he proposed o mike. Mr. BRISCOE understood that it was intended to pro pose au increase to the army. He wished to know how that tallied with the principle of non-intervention avowed by the Government ? It was his opinion that the con stabulary force, the yeomanry, and the militia, were the legal, proper, and constitutional auxiliaries of the Govern ment, and he saw no necessity for increasing the army. He would ask, how' could they reduce the taxes without reducing the expenditure? The House then went into committee. ARMY ESTIMATES. The House having resolved itself into Committee of Supply, 31r. C. cv. WYNN rose to move the first resolution, in doing which, and in bringin g under the ':onsidrration the army estimates for the present year, he could not help re gretting that in doing that, for the first time, he should find himself under the necessity of proposing an increase instead ofa diminution. That increase, however, was not founded upon any opinion on the part of his Majesty's Government that an armed intervention would be necessary. But when he looked at the state of England at the time the Govern ment were .1 on to det erm i ne t h e amount o f men for th'elieservice of the current year , an d a l so w h en re quisite he looked at the state of Ireland, he could not but think that the House would agree with him, that the proposed in crease did not exceed what the necessity of the country required. He was sure the House would see that when the present Ministers were called to the direction of affairs they were bound to take every possible precaution for the pro tection of the loyal and well-disposed portion of the com munity. He felt that he should not discharge his duty to the House nor to his col eaaues, if he did not, in the first h o was bound to say, to the excellent ar td,vtehai,t,etrleleaspedrolp)oastert(lma,ugge-, Friend near him, when instance, °l: S a e en c nig r nt e ega t nt a iiie r io' y nna ti a ndi t Plil A yttl i ;T a r, by which facilities were afforded for the increasing the number of recruits by lowering the stan dard. It had been suggested that a better mode would be to embody the veteran battalions. O n t h e most mature consideration, they ( the Ministers) arrived at the conclu sion that not only the veteran battalions would be less effi cient, but eventually more expensive. It would be recol lected, also, that most of the veteran battalimis were re cruited under Mr. Wynilhatn's Act; that they would, therefore, be entitled to increased pensions for every month they served. It was also to he recollected that the half pay list would be matorially affected by carrying such a project into eff.Tt, say nothi ng o f th e i nconven i ences ) which would be attendant upon the number of wives and c hilth en belonging to the veterans. LAfter this the Right Hon. Gentleman so frequently dripped his voice, that it I) observations, toe directedt 1 1 e e e t a o l u ) l r e s , e ( n ) f d u h t is t e e 4 ia a n a lmost inaudible.] He was understood to say that the as proposed measure was to take place by the addition of men ei ne io h s e . y i t r o e follow across the to the companies, which might at any time be reduced. As to the precise matter then to be brought under the conside • ration of the Committee, it would be confined to the first e ight the ninth, as we un d erstoo d hi m, re l at i ng solely votes , theto lndian army. The increased expense on the first eight votes was 199,9661:—there was an apparent ex pense of '210,0001.; but deductions which were to be made from that, left it the sum he had mentioned. With respect to the volunteer and yeomanry force, he certainly was not prepared to recommend its abolition, not that it had often been found parti cu l ar l y use f ul for t h e purpose of putt i ng down disturbances, but that the knowledge that such a force was at th e di sposa l o f t h e persons o f property an d c onsideration, had th e e ff ec t o f preven ti ng an d c h ec ki n g a disposition to riot. There would be then an expense of 136,0001. for the additional land forces, and nearly 72,000/. for the volunteer and yeomanry corps; but it was to be observed that this was not to be an annual expense ; and as for the sum of 50,000/., stated in the estimates, they would (as we understood him) be spread over a pe riod of three y ears , i n t h e s h ape o f a ll owa nces. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to compliment the late Secretary at War (Sir 11. Ilardinge), upon the beneficial alterations he had introduced, upon which it would be the less necessary for him to enter, ae his Right lion. Friend, the . First Lord o f t h e Ad m i ra l ty , h a d said all that th e oc casion requir e d. H e conc l u d e d by moving, " Th at i t i s the opinion of the Committee, that the laud forces for the service of the United Kingdom, for the year ensuing, be 88,1.96 men, exclusive of the regiments employed on the territory of the East India Company." Colonel DAVIES wished rather that a grant for three months he Committee.take❑ o n li He , u n a d n e d rs t t o h 6 e i th estimates „tany r e o fe p r o V t it, o jeolnp a Selectoetx that z g tu h r i e is w s i , u r l p d ris b e e a o t p it;o1 that, ‘;‘, l a ie u n d e he r c ec o o u i l l i e l e n te o t t l that a similar motion last year had the support of the gentlemen now occupying the Treasury Bench. In look mg at these estimates, be would begin with the year 1821, which might be called the annul tnerabilis of these matters. In that year• the N , b'e Lard had been chained to his seat by the observations on the opposition site of the House, being peeked at by the vultures there like ri.nother Prometheus. In that' year t7,e number of troops was 81.1fiti, Co that th • present min:tier was an increase upon that, of 6 ; 936 ; the charge was about three Millions, by which it would tke the increase of the charge now amounted to 119,000/. : zind yet that estimate was denounced at the time as the most wicked and abominab!e that had ever been heard o". In the year 1822 the Number of troops were 1 71,000, being a diminution of 16,500 whoa compared with the present year, while the charge at present was 536,000/. more than it had heen then. He would, however, now come to the pre,ew year, in which, though he gave the Ministry some credit for the decrease, he must give them gib greater credit for the increase; for it appeared that the total in crease Night, in round numbers, be estinnted at 200,0001. In the first place, he must object most strenuously to the e,tablishment of the depot company as now instituted, for he thom;ht that great reduction might he made in it 7.lth out imp tiring a single iota cf the service. The c'aarge under tit:it head was nearly 400,0001. Now Low did this arise? It WaS exputheut that the, supernumeraries and staff, as cwopared with the rank and file, should be e small as possible. But in this estahlishinent the con trary was exactly the case, for the amount of the super numeraries and staff was exactly double what it need he. The total amount of the commissioned and non-commis sinned officers was upwards of 11,000, while, in fact, they were wholly unfit for anythins but to act as a constabu lary force, established in the Isle of Wight and other Maces, where they were utterly useless. Besides this, the system might be called a modern invention, for, till after the war, no such thing had been heard of. There had been recruitiug parties indeed ; but the charge on recruiting had increased in spite of the depots ; 105,342/. as as the total charge of the recruiting service this year ; and the charge of the depots wss 450,000/. ; so that thecountry had to pay 550,000/. for the mere expence of recruiting ; and taking it that 10,000 men were raised iu the year, that would lie a charge of 55/. per man. Was not then this a fit subject for inves tigation by a Committee? He thought so, and he had no doubt that on this point alone there might be effected a reduction of 300,000/. or 400,0001. Another point to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee vas the garrisoning of the troops. In his opinion co lonial troops ought to be raised in the colonies where they were to serve, instead of sending the men out there; the consequence of the present system was, that there were frequently 3,000 troops at sea, during which time, of course, they were performing no service whatever. The principle in this country appeared to he, as soon as we got po-session of a colony, to see how many jobs we could m ake of it, while the object of other countries was to make their colonies support themselves. The fact was,we gave too much salary in these cases. While a salary of 2 or 3,000/. a year was quite enough for a Governor, and. many efficient officers would be glad to eml,race such terms, a much larger amount was unnessarily given. The Governor of Ceylon had been receiving 10,000/. a year for salary, besides an allowance of 3,500/. a year on ,mother score. Let them compare the expense of the British army with that of foreign armies, and the Com mittee would be astonished. The charge of our army and ordnance amounted to six millions (exclusive of the dead weight), for which sum 94,000 or 96,000 men were sup ported. The French army, under the Bourbons, which, by the speech of Al. Lafitte, appeared now to be considered as on much too expensive a scale, consisted of 250,000 men, who were supported at an expen-e of 5,200,000/. ; and in Prussia, where the whole revenue of the country did not amount to eight millions, an army of 180,000 men was supported. There was one principle which in his opinion might, be adopted, by which a great saving would be effected. lie meant by the adoption of some sort of yeomanry arrangement—not a National Guard, that should appoint its own officers and employ its time in pre senting petitions to the Kin g —but a corps that should have its o ffi cers appointed by the Crown, and whose whole move tnentsshould he under the influence of the Crown. It was by arming those who bad property, and regarded the institu tions of the country, against those who had no property, and had no regard for those institutions, that true security would be procured. The present distress of the country was undeniable ; and though he should be sorry to do any thing hostih to the present Government, no personal feeling could allow him to vote what was uncalled fog by the country, and he must, therefore, refuse the sanction of so humble a name as his own to such a measure. He could assure the Government that any proposition of Re form would bean act of self-immolation, unless they were prepared to alter their courss in this respsct; for it would la, impossible, under that Re!Orm, for any Ministry to hold office for two months, unless they could make up their minds to real economy and retrenchment. He should, therefore, move, as an amendment, that the supply for the army should only be voted from the Ist of January to the Ist of April, in order that a Committee might be ap pointed to inquire into the expenditure. Mr. BEAUMONT (as we understood) thought that it was of no use for the Hon. and Gallant Member to say that he wished to see the country in a better condition if he would not help to place it there. The Hon. and Gal lant Member had asked what these was in the state of the country now which called for additions] troops ; but he need not look fir an answer, for there was an Hon. and Learned Gentleman sitting near him, who had said that if he raised his right hand, he could put the people in a state of rebellion.—(A murmur in the House, during which Mr. O'Connell made some observations which did not reach the gallery.)—lf he had used too strong an ex pression he was sorry for it ; but the Hen and Learned Member had been told before then that his speeches, which began with peace, ended with sedition. That was his (Mr. Beaumont's) opinion also, and that was one of the reasons why the Army Estimates were what they were. It was not long since the Special Commissions had terminated ; and the state of France and of Russia still called for the most serious attention, so that he could not understand why the Hon. and Gallant Member should have been at a loss for the motives that hail in duced the Government to increase the number of troops. Mr. O'CONNELL would not have trespassed on the time of the Committee, had it not been for the extraordi nary attack in the extraordinary speech which they had just heard. The Hon. Gentleman had commenced with an attack on the Gallant Officer who had preceded him, and had then proceeded to show his perfect knowledge of the state of the country; after which he had bestowed his meed of disapprobation on him (Mr. O'Connell.) He, however, begged to invite the Hon. Gentleman to continue that disapprobation, for, after the specimen he had given of his judgment and intellect, he thought that that must be much preferable to his applause.—(Hear.)—The Hon. Gentleman had said that the state of Ireland required an augmentation of the army—that the state of England re quired an augmentation—that the state of France reqnired an augmentation—and that, above all, the state of Russia required an augmentation of the army. And, after all this, the number raised wax to 7,000, to fight Russia, France, England, and Ireland, Never had any mountain been so completely in labour to produce a mouse, as this army of the Hon. Gentleman of 7,000 men, who, he supposed, were to march to Brentford and back again. But the Hon. Gentleman had also been pleased to attribute to him what he called the rebellion in Ireland. There was no language consistent with the rules of that House sufficiently strong to repudiate the foul calumny, which was as atrocious as had ever been uttered by any man. The Hon. Gentleman might talk of peace, but he (Mr. O'Connell) practised it.—(Laughter, and hear.)—He knew that would get a ready cheer. He belonged to the most wretched and miserable country in the world ; and it had been said in another place, that famine must visit it periodically. But was it the hand of Providence that had (hied it up, and made it barren ? No, it was the most fertile of lands, and only owed its present condition to the misery that had been imposed upon it. Had the Hon. Gentleman thought proper to show any approaches to re bellion, it would have been easy to throw it aside ; but amid the idle tissue in which the charge had been pre sented, he would only meet it with a positive—he would not say with a contemptuous—denial. If his speeches had inculcated sedition, why had he not been prosecuted? But he supposed they had forborne through kindness—through favour towards him. He could ta the House, that he had spoken no speech without two Go• vernment short-hand writers being present to take down what he said, and for those gentlemen he bad procured accommodation ; and he therefore contradicted in the most distinct way, the justice of the charge that had been wade against him. And yet the charge had been made. Per haps it had been done for the sake of courting a little po pularity; for when any Hon. Member found himself astray, he was sure to find a clap-trap in making an at tack upon him.—( A cry of No, no.") This was the s econd time that such an attack had been made that even ing. Those who did not choose to assail any other, a!- sailed him.—(A cry of " No, no.")—No ! Had he said a single word till he had been assailed—and was not that the second time that he had been attacked that evening ? lie would, however, pass it over with the single remark, that if any one exceeded him in love for his country, or was more desirous of seeing its grievances corrected, be would consent to that man being his calumniator and de crier ; and, at all events, whether he (Mr. O'Connell) tailed or succeeded in his efforts, he should have the con eiation of knowing that such attacks u these were ye evied by him, and passed Over without notice. Mr. BEAUMONT (as we understood) explained. He should pass over what had falle n from the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford, as be was sure that it ,leed• d no answer. • Colonel SIBTHORPE thought that instead of carrying on the recruiting system, it would be better if use was made of the pensioners that were fit for active servic,!. lie understood that there were ;flout 18,000 who might Ue employed in that way. Lord ALTHORPE said, that with respect to the argu ments of the Gallant Colonel opposite, he must say that e Government were not justly chargeable with incon sistency in having raised the number of troops at the present moment. On the contrary, it would have been inconsistent in them if they had, at this time, acted up to those rules which under other circumstances had their 4upport.—(Hear.)—lt was necessary—he regretted it— but it was necessary that there should be an increase in the military force of this country. He appealed to the House whether his Right Hon. Friend, who had just come into office, ought to have acted on his own suggestion? All he could say was, that the strictest inquiry should be made zit° the subject, and that the Goverum.oit would en leavour to reduce every thing that was useless.—(Hear, respect to the appointment of a Com mittee of that House, he must remind the House that .e had never been art advocate for referring estimates of Iris kind to a Committee of that House. It was a incyde of examining the estimates that he never thought was at tended with advantage to the public. The Gallant Officer had p:oposed that the vote should only be taken for a short space of time; but he confessed that be did not see the advantage of that proposition, end he did not think that its advantages had been made very manifest to the House. The mode of increasing the army which be had adopted was that of filling up the regiments to the limit of their establishment. It had been stated that the em ployment of the army pensioners would have been a cheaper mode of effecting the same object; but as these persons would then have additional claims to pensions, •he expence would ultimately, even in that respect, be grea'er than that which was now incurred. Besides which, had that mode been adapted, an increased number of officers must then have been appointed, and in addition t r them would have been the expence of the families of the pensioners. He must say that the proposition which went to refuse them the vote for the whole year in the usual manner, manifested, notwithstandingewhat the Gal lant Colonel had said, a great want of confidence in the Government. He trusted that the house would not be actuated by that feeling, but would give the vote as it was asked.—(Hear, Lear.) Sir H. HARDINGE said he approved very much both of the amount of the force now demanded•by the Govern ment, and the mode in which the proposed increase was to he made. He thought the plan of fiiling up the regi ments was the best that could be adopted. The number of men when this measure had been curie(' into effect, would not exceed 75,000, or in round numbei . s. he might state it at SO 000. That was, in fact, only the peace establishment that was voted on a former occasion. Time establishment of the yeomanry force, a most cheap and con stitutional force, was a measure that, in his op:nion, did the Government great credit. He saw in theestimates an item of 133,0001. for the expence of the yeomanry. He should be glad to know the amount of force that was to he tiro vid. fl at that sum ? He asked the question, because there was a report afloat that 20,000 yeomanry were to be pro vided in Ireland ; and he wished to know whether that corps was to be included in the 75,000 ? If it was not, Ile believed the estimate would be found deficient to the amount of 20,000/. in the intended provision. He would now refer to another part of the estimates. The late Government had often been reproached with the exces sive expence of the Staff, and he had therefore expected to see in the present estimates a considerable reduction io that respect. However, on carefully examining the esti mates, he found that with the exception of two offices, to which he should presently allude, there was no reduction whatever on the Staff establishment. 'I ose officers were the Treasurer of the Military Asylum, and the Treasurer of the Military College. Now, with respect to the first of these, he did not think the Noble Lied had edopted a wise course in putting down that office; for the Treasurer was a person whose office was not one of patronage, but who had most important deities to perform in the payment of soldiers' orphans, and in the purchase and sale of the funds destined for their support. These duties had been well performed by Messrs. Cox and Greenwood, who had re ceived a very moderate sum as a recompence for their trouble. They received a - sum of about 300/., or rather more than one per cent. on the money that passed through their hands. Those duties must be performed by some other person, who, of course, woul:1 require payment liar his trouble. Th, Treasurer of the Military Co - ltee was the other officer whose office bad been abo lished. His duties were of a somewhat similar nature. There had once been a Paymaster of the Military College, but his office had been abolisl,ed, and the duties which he hid performed were transferred to the treasurer. The office of treasurer was fired by those very respectable army agents, the Messrs. Collier, and their office, he could boldly assert, was not one of patronage. They had re ceived the stun of 3001. a year, being about one per cent. on the money that had passed through their hands, but that money not now being so much as formerly, their pay ment had recently been reduced to 2001. a year. He should lik to ask the Noble Lord whether he could get own private afftirs transacted for a less sum?—(Hear) —and when they recollected the responsibility of the per sons to whom the public money was thus entrusted, as well as the labour those persons performed, he believed he might safely assert that no private gentleman could get his business transacted at a cheaper rate. He repeated, that there had been no reductions on the staff but these; and he might now safely appeal to the Right Hon. Secretat y at War to know whether he, even with the aid of that most intelligent officer, the Deputy Secretary at War, had been able to find out those abuses of which so much had been formerly said ? He thought the Right Hon. Secre tary had not been able to find out these abuses, or at all events, the reductions on the staff had not been sucb as might have been expected after the censures that had so often been passed on those establishments. He, however, congratulated the Government on their not having made any tfforts to accomplish a crude retrenchment. He concurred with the Noble Lord as to the propriety of the increase of the number of men, and of the mode adopted in carrying that increase into effect. The increase amounted to 6,800 omen, and there was no doubt that the Government had the best meana of knowing the ground of that increase, and would. at a proper time, and on a proper occasion, explain it. There were sufficient - causes in the state of this country for the increase of the army, without seeking fur them elsewhere. At the same time it must be admitted that there were grave and important considerations connected with the state of things abroad.—(Bear, hear.) The G Want Colonel, the Member for Worcester, had referred to the speech of the French Minister of Finincet. He (Sir 11. Haringe) should be glad to notice that speech, though not at the present moment to ask for explanations which, doubtless, the Government would be well prepare d to givc. He could not help referring to time Budget of the French Minister in which the estimate for the year amounted to forty-seven millions, and of that suns nine millions were required for the arria—an army stated to amount to 434,000 men, and.. 16,000 horse. When the House considered these numbers they would agree with him that France must look almost like a camp. No doubt the Government could give full explanations upon the subject of this immense army, when the proper time came for them to do it. With respect to our own small army, he was prepared to say that it never was in a ;letter state of discipline thin at the present moment. Ile hoped the time was far distant when that army would be called on to show that it was still capabie of doing that which in former periods hail won glory for this country, and the respect of Europe for the valour of her sons ; but ha was sure, that if the time ever should arrive, they would prove themselves worthy of their former fame. How ever, he trusted most sincerely that peace would he main tained, if it could be maintained consistently with the na tional honour and the safety of the country.—(Hear.) Mr. S. RICE said, the Committee ought not to rea son on the estimates now in the same manner that they would have done had the times been different. With re spect to the two offices which had been abolished, he wished to say„ that many of the duties which were put forward in defence of their continuance were those that might easily be performed by an ordinaty el , rk ; and, under these circumstances, the Government had the right if necessary, to abolish them. Sir H. HARDINGE and Mr. RICE mutually explained. Mr. STANLEY said that his Hon. Friend had i:ppeared in the unusual character of a Member of the Government, rising in his place in that House to defend a m eduction of expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was his business to ex plain the grounds of the addition of about 50,0001. for clothing the Irish yeomanry, a vote that V. mild hereafter be brought forward, but which he would take th,s oppor 'unity of justifying. And here be might safely appeal to the Right tfon Gentleman (Sir H Hardinge) whether, when he left office, the state of Ireland was not such as :o require a measure of precaution oh the kind, to, the purpose of securing her tranquillity ?—(flear, The first step of the new Ministry had teento : the const.tuted force known by the name of the y y