The Sun. — London, England, 1834-07-05 00:00:00

adjustment and settlement of tithes in Ireland, as shall by any Act to be passed during the present Session of Parliament, be provided." This, in effect would be restoring the 147th clause, and placing the Bill on the same footing on which it formerly stood, and making it conformable to the declarations of the Noble Lord. He would remind the Noble Lord that he stood pledged to give relief to the Dissenters. It was very well known that the Noble Lord offered a measure of relief to that numerous and influential body, to the amount of 250,0001. a year, which, however, they had repudiated as unsatisfactory and insufficient; was it then to be supposed that they would tolerate an additional burden for the support of this sinecure Church.—( Hear, hear.) There were many in that House who were most anxious to support the Noble Lord and his colleagues, and on whom he could rely if he would but pursue so decided and bold a policy; he would put it then to the Noble Lord, whether his present uncertain, unsatisfactory, and inconclusive system was a wise one? The Hon. Gentleman concluded with moving his amendment. The question having been put, Mr. O'CONNELL said he was not much struck by the arguments of the Noble Lord, but he was a great deal struck by one of his assertions, in which he stated, that whoever voted for the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman would pledge himself to the appropriation by Parliament of the ec clesiastical fund.—( A laugh.) If the Noble Lord came for ward now to give them to understand that he would pass the resolution of the Hon. Member for St. Alban's, or if, in a more mitigated shape, he would pass the resolution that had been lately proposed by him (Mr. O'Connell), then the Noble Lord's principle would be intelligible, and he should, with the greatest pleasure, give his support to the resolution now be fore the Committee. But why, if they were to pledge them selves to that effect, was not the principle at once acted on. They had had enough of pledges that were no pledges. Their reliance ought to be not a mere opinion of the Ministry, but solemn records of this House.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, with the complacency and good humour which became him, remarked on the boast of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the late Colonial Secretary, as to his measures for Ireland. That Gentleman certainly took credit to himself for the purity of his intentions ; and he (Mr. O'Connell) did not deny that they were pure. But as certainly he was liable to the taunt that his measures were not success ful. He might be told that he found Ireland in a dis turbed state, and he left it in a worse ; that with all his good intentions, he neither subdued dissension, nor con tented himself with enforcing the law as it existed; but got from this House a most unconstitutional, and an almost un ' limited, power. The Noble Lord—who, if he did not equal the Right Hon. Gentleman in oratorical display, exceeded him in good temper:4A laugh)---if he had wished to reta liate the smart attack made on him by the Right Hon. Gen teman, an attack not over considerate for Right Hon. Friends —( Great laughter.)--might have insisted with some strength, that when an appeal was made to the House to spare to the people of Ireland the mischief which would result from the . measure, to avoid the heart-burning and dissension—nay, the crime and bloodshed—which it would give rise to; the Noble Lord, he repeated, might have retaliated on the Right Hon. Gentleman who made this forcible appeal, by reminding him that in his time dissensions, and heart-burning, and crime existed —aye, and rivers of blood, too, flowed—and he neither succeeded in suppressing the one, nor in arresting the tide of the other. This being the fact, had not the Noble Lord a 'right to say to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that as he found the.experiment was a bad one, he would give it up at once and for ever—he would alter the system totally ? Government had failed to show that the alterations which were to be effected by the proposed measure had anything in them calculated to benefit in any way the people of Ireland. When they condemned the failure of the late Secretary for the Colonies, why not try and adopt some means of amending what they deemed bad in his sys tem? Why not endeavour to bring forward some measure which would really and substantially satisfy Ireland ?--( Hear.) The measures proposed by that Gentleman were only such as were calculated tca satisfy his cheerers—such as would satisfy the Orangemen of Ireland, giving them dominion by day and rule by night. It was odd that the Right Hon. Gentleman should be so anxious to give satisfaction to those whom he had for merly characterised as the contemptible remnant of a broken faction ; but it was owing, perhaps, to the circumstance of their being now converted into his admiring cheerers. Go vernment could not succeed in their efforts with respect to this measure. They did not take up the subject in the manner in which they should take it up, and give the right direction to this property. It had been made an argument, that any mea sure affecting the Church property would eventually lead to a Repeal of the Union. To leave unredressed the evils of Ire land, was the way to hasten this event so much dreaded now • by the father of the Hannibals, who had in former time pledged himself by a vow as unalterable as the laws of the Medes and the Persians, to leave no effort untried to undo the measure of the Union ; who not only vowed himself, but ended by pledg ing himself, to swear to the same efforts at the altar of his country every son of his country begotten or to be begot— (Laughter)--and evinced a disposition to endeavour to fulfil the pledge whether the contemplated issue were an abortion • or came to its full time. The Hon. Member for Mid dlesex need not dread for a moment that any measure which fla ieny pass that House would hazard the los s o f th e excel t Chancellor for Ireland. He may rest satisfied that of the five-and-fifty offices possessed by the family of that Noble - Lewd, all would still continue to be held even although the dreaded spoliation of the Church should go on.—( A laugh. ) But what was this spoliation which was so insisted on ? If transfer was spoliation, by what title, he should like to know, did the Established Church lay claim to this property.— ( Cheers ?) • Let them beware how they teach that transfer is • • spoliation. Their title to the property was found in the Acts of Parliament, a good and sufficient title which none would dispute. Though a transfer had taken place it was not spo - •liation it was the law of the land, but it was a law like every - other law, capable of alteration. Formerly this property was held by the performance of some service. Every grant made to the church by the heads of families was with the provision that a certain number of masses should be said or a certain number of prayers offered up either for a certain time or for ever, and the performance of th ese serv i ces was the title by Which the property was held. But these services were not now performed--there were no masses said—no prayers offered up—souls were now left to shift for themselves : no value was given, and those who had enjoyed the ad vantage of the former transfer now turn round, and after century of civil war which followed upon that transfer, • tell you that if you touch this property it is spoliation, robbery, and plunder.—( Loud cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the thimble rig, but in his (Mr. O'Connell's opinion the thimble rig was at the other side, and these things were more properly to be found at the Derby..--( Laughter.) Such legislation as he would make on this subject would fit the show-box, and the race-ground, and black-legs, but faded into unintelligibility before the light of common honesty and just. intention. Who were they that re ceived the tithes in England? Why, the clergy of the peo ple of England. Who were they who enjoyed the church re venue of Scotland ? The clergy of the people also. Did any one believe that, if it were proposed in England to give to the - Catholic clergy of England—the Catholics being about one - sixteenth of the nation—the property now possessed by the Establishment, would the people agree to it—would the House agree to it—Would the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley) agree to it? If last year such an Act was proposed, would not the Right Hon. Gentleman be the first to oppose the handing over the property from those who were really the clergy of the people to those who were not ?—( Hear, hear.) The d principl e w hi c h h e con t en d e d f or w as recognized in Scot lan, but they compelled that recognition by force. There was no begging, or petitioning, or cajoling of Right Hon. Friends. They argued the question with the broad sword— beY urged it w ith its ed ge —th e y garr i sone d th emse l ves in at mountain fastnesses, and, after fighting for fifty years, hey happily succeeded in what is now called spoliation.— ( Hear.) They succeeded in making a transfer of the pro- P e rth not to the clergy of the Protestant church, not to the clergy of the Catholic, but to the clergy of a new church, the Chu rc h o f S cot l an d ; and properly was it so transferred, for that was the church of the people. Whilst this struggle lasted what was the consequence ? Scotland, instead of adding strength to, was then the weakness of England. The coun tries at war with Great Britain speculated on her disaffection ; every invasion which threatened contemplated that quarter of the empire, and the throne itself was insecure whilst her I Trengs remained unredressed. When the cause of dissatisfac lien was r emove d h ow diff erent was t h e state of th i ngs ? Scot and now, instead of being the weakness, is the strength, the °r nament of, and adds dignity to the empire. They had sa tisfied the demands of the country, they had done her justice, they identified the religion of the people with the religion of the country.—( Cheers.) He did not ask so much for Ire of this p roperty land. I n d eed, when he had formerly suggested that a portion in Ireland should go to maintain those who Ministered to the religious wants of the great body of the p e ople in that country, the proposition had been dis- Vanned by millions o f vo i ces t h ere , an d h e hi mse lf h a d :b een bl amed for having made it. He had received many coin- I punications on the subject, all rejecting such a proposi °Len ; but they were u nan i mous i n des : ring that the b urthen Should be lightened ; and unless some means were taken to effect that, they never could hope to establish peace in the (I To decide upon what s h ou ld b e done i n reference to mats subject, there was no necessity of issuing a rambling com mission. All that was necessary to b e k nown could be ascer tained in the space of eight-and-forty hours. Let them go a ken the plain principle, that where there was no fl oc k to idepre over, and n o serv ices to be performed, th ere should b e no rem uneration.__( Cheers.) Let there be at once some sweep log and beneficial alteration made, which the people would r e opt, and of which Government may be proud.-_-( Hear.) t them not continue to bring forward unmeaning and unin telligible_, propositions--unsatisfactory and neutral measures, - i w s n e leh Were neither one thing nor the other.—( Cheers.) L et In not keep the public in the present state of suspense, but confide something intelligible, and in which the people may Govern There was no necessity for the Commission to enable •se ernment to decide upon its proceeding. Let them take statement of of the Hon. Member for the University Dublin, who may be said to be the advocate of the cl ergy . L et them take his word, in the belief that sum umwould neither exag gerate, nor diminish. Take t h e mentioned by that Honourable Gentleman, and then a pply the plan which he (Mr. O'Connell) proposed. where one-fourth of the inhabitants were of the Establis hment, let the living be continued : where it was not so much, let the living be done away with ; add the into the dead weight, and lt incumbents be d ia b y as fell ofan and it Bills. Let such a course as paid beY aaiListseude, which dt would at once and for ever extinguish the heart-burriings must otherwise continue in Ireland, whils . t,. at the same - time it would make proper provision for the religious instruc tion' of themembers of the Establishment. If Ministers undertook some such plain and intelligible Measure as this, the House would support them in it, or if obstacles were thrown in t he way, they would be supported from without by Le, in P I the of`, - d t h e rei e on t il l/ be Wel l v Hon. F r Ireland; re i n stel i on froa l give a met", l er met", t t b°1 ;; I „ I no. 00 t tif '! sis A t , A 0 o i :alitit;for THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JULY 5, 1834. the voice and the confidence of the people. If, in endea vouring to carry such a-project into effect, they should be driven from their station, it would be but for a season. They would shortly be borne back on the shoulders of the people, and supported by a principle maintained and established by the consent of every rational being in the empire.—( Cheers.) Then they would enjoy in Ireland that peace which England did not know until the religion of the country was consonant with the opinions of the great bulk of the people, which Scot land only exhibited when her clergy were identified and com bined with the population, and which never could be known in Ireland until this grievous and harassing oppression was removed. Mr. LEFROY contended that the church property in Ire land stood upon exactly the same footing with the church pro perty in England. In answer to a question which had been asked, he would say, that the tithes in Ireland were in reality paid by the persons who possessed property in Ireland. His principal object in rising was to call the attention of the house to one point which had been urged, and to which he did not think the Noble Lord opposite had given a satisfactory answer. He wished to know what new light had broken in on the Go vernment since February? What additional information had they gained since bringing forward their former Bill ? What further facts were added to the report upon which that Bill had been founded ? That Bill went upon the principle of convert ing the tithes into landed property. The Committee, upon whose report the Bill was founded, and to which report the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland was an assenting party, came to the resolution that the conversion of tithes into landed property was the only way to obviate the objections made to them, and ultimately to set the question of tithes at rest for ever. In another Committee of the Lords, the Noble Lord the President of the Council concurred in the same principle. And yet, notwithstanding this, they now all of a sudden threw the Bill overboard, abandoning as well the resolution contained in the reports as the Bill itself. Why was this—what was the motive ? The only one which sug gested itself was, that Government was acting on the advice of his Majesty's confidential adviser on Irish affairs, the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin.—( Hear, and a laugh.) The resolution of to-night was in substance the same as that pro posed by the Learned Member for Dublin, and adopted his his principle. Would such a measure, he asked, contribute to the establishment of peace in Ireland? It would decidedly not. No one class of persons agreed that it would. Enter taining these opinions, he felt himself bound to oppose the measure brought forward by Government. Mr. LAMBERT was understood to say that he was at first disinclined to support Ministers on this question ; but giving them credit for a desire to do all in their power to ameliorate the condition of Ireland, and seeing the unnatural alliance which had taken place, had altered his determination. When he saw a Right Hon. Gentleman who had so recently been con nected with the Government, and who had then described the party with which he was now co-operating as the contemptible remnant of an expiring faction ; when he witnessed such unions he could no longer reconcile it to himself to be in opposition to the Government. When the Right Hon. Gentleman could so speak of men with whom he had been so long connected, and whose measures he had supported—when he could speak of them as a company of shoplifters—describe them as swin dlers and persons prepared to commit petty larceny, because they wisely consented to give up a small portion of church property to ensure tranquillity in Ireland, he should like to know by what title the Right Hon. Gentleman would desig nate the 20,000,000/. granted by this country as a compensa tion for negro emancipation ? Last year that House granted 20,000,0001. for the purposes of humanity, and he would con fidently appeal to any gentleman who knew what the conse quences of the tithe system were in Ireland, whether it would not be an act of the greatest humanity to the people of that unhappy island to put a stop to them ? He would ask gen tlemen who were anxious for the interests of the church, whether it could possibly injure the moral and religious inte rests of that church if its revenues were derived from a less odious source than at present—partly from the State, and partly from the voluntary payments of the landlords of Ireland ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had used a phrase which he often heard repeated in that House ; he had said that the law must be vindi cated.—( Hear.) He could not understand the meaning of that expression.—(Laughter and loud cheers.) They had said over and over again that the law was bad, and conse quently it was their duty to rectify it----( Hear) —but after having told the people that it was bad, they did nothing to amend it, and the people consequently took the law into their own hands. He did not justify that, but he thought at least they ought not to punish them for refusing obedience to a law which they themselves had pronounced to be bad.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, there was only one way of settling the ques tion, and that was by inducing the landlords of Ireland to take the payment on themselves. It was in vain to tamper with the evil, it must be finally and fairly settled, or it would be vain to expect peace in Ireland. Mr. SHAW said that Hon. Gentlemen had professed to support this Bill as doing away the atrocious system of tithes. Now, what he wished to point out was, that it did not do them away. It was merely a question of degree. Was that House, was Ireland, was the country, to be imposed upon by the belief that tithes were abolished because the name was 'changed ? ( Hear.) Call it tithes, call it land-tax, call it rent-charge, call it what you will, the yearly payment, which is the griev ance complained of, still remained to be paid. The Hon. Gentleman alluded to the 20,000,0001. given last year to the Colonies. What was the meaning of that allusion, if not to insinuate that there was not wanting a precedent to give English money to the Irish landlords ? But then after a great deal of careful winding about the subject, the Noble Lord at last let drop that he was ready to enter into the question of appropriation. Ile did not doubt he was ready to talk about it —(Hear,bear)—but why, if ready, did he not do it? How was it that the Noble Lord and his colleagues did nothing, and yet were ever making declarations ? He believed it was only to get the votes of that House.—( Hear, hear.) Why also should the Noble Lord ever be making declarations contrary to the course he pursued ? If the Noble Lord were ready to appropriate Church property, what need of the shuffle of a Commission ? Why not at once come forward with a proposi tion to that effect ? The Noble Lord would insure an im mense majority,—( Loud cheers.) Oh ! he was perfectly ready to admit that.—( Hear.) But that would be extremely inconvenient to the Cabinet. It was more convenient to tickle the ears of the House with church plunder than to take any measures towards it. The only solution of the mys tery was, that the principle of the Members of the Cabinet in that House were not the principles of the Cabinet as a cabinet. Really there was no knowing how to meet the various plans proposed. One day one measure was introduced, and another day another. Nothing but shuffling. The Right Hon. Se cretary for Ireland blows hot and cold-4 No.) Really, be fore the Right Hon. Gentleman said no, he had better recall the original plan to his recollection. The House knew that the Right Hon. Gentleman's memory was none of the best.— (A laugh.) The plan proposed was certainly very different from that which originally had the Right Hon. Gentleman's sanction. Why were the lay impropriators left out of the Bill? Was this some paltry evasion? He was sure it was no t to please the House, for the House was as ready to apply the principle to lay as to clerical impropriators.—( Hear.) As to the country ever getting a farthing back for their advance, it was entirely out of the question.—( Hear, hear.) They had now only got 3,000/., out of which they proposed to pay 120,0001. a year. He would not call them fools.—( A laugh. ) He would not say they were guilty of an act of folly in giving it ; but this he would say—give it if you like, but do not ex pect to see one farthing of it back--( Hear.) The measure was not a certain or a perfect measure. It was originally one of redemption. Now, as to part of it, it was so no longer. Ministers, in short, found themselves in a predicament, but they had neither the manliness to go back or - forward, and they came to the House as usual to get them out of their scrape, at the modest expense of 120,0001. a year. As to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, where was his consistency ? He (Mr. Shaw) did not negociate with Govern ment—(" Nor I!" from Mr. O'Connell.) Why the Hon. and Learned Gentleman denied negociation, and the negociation was going forward now.—( A laugh.) He should have none of his confidence. But he would put it to him, did he not expect that the Coercion Bill would not meet with the support—the cordial support of some of the members of the Cabinet in that House 2—( Hear.) He inferred so from the Hon. and Learned Member's acts, for had he not been urging upon them. that night what a terrible thing it would be if the present Ministry were out, and that if they, too, were to meet with that misfortune, they would be brought in on the shoulders of Vie people ? and yet, some days ago, when it was that Hon. and Learned Gentleman's sincere conviction that the Coercion Bill would be revived, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, now is the time for the House of Lords to come down and turn out the present Ministry, and oh ! how we Repealers and Radicals would support them—( Laughter, and hear, from Mr. O'Con nell.) So much for the consistency of that Hon. and Learned Member. Mr. GISBORNE said that when this measure was first brought forward, and he was called on to vindicate the right of property in tithes, leaving the question of appropriation, on which it was intimated the Cabinet differed, unsettled, he cer tainly hesitated as to his vote ; but he considered the case changed. Since the recent change in the Cabinet, the case stood on very different grounds.—( Hear, hear.) The Mini sterial appointments had given the utmost satisfaction, and the real question was, whether they should quarrel with people who were travelling the same road with them, becau se th e y did not travel fast enough for their wishes, and throw them selves into the arms of those who wished to travel in an oppo site direction.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would in vain hold out his blandishments to you about what he pleased to call the generous party with whom he acted. —( A laugh.) Toryism had indeed hidden its diminished head in that House ; it held a higher attitude in a House adjoining ; but if they wished to see it in its genuine purity and spirit, let them seek it at Oxford. There the child was first cradled, nor did he doubt that its cradle would prove the dying bed of its decrepitude.—(Loud laughter, and cheering.) The fact was, that whatever disguise it might put on, Toryism was as in solent, overbearing, and unteachable as it ever was, and so it would ever continue to be.—( Hear, hear.) It had been said that Ministers had not raised the question fairly, hut he really thought that had not the question of appropria tion been raised, they would not have heard so vehe ment an opposition from the Hon. Gentleman, and the gene rous party with whom he was connected.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked of the difficulty of finding the Church property of Ireland under any of the thimbles. Let him (Mr. Gisborne) have the management of them, and they should find it under the thimble of the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had contended that a beneficial principle---the prin c i p l e of redemption—had been removed from the Bill. But how did he make out that pro position ? He argued that the landlord was charged so low an interest, that he would not think it worth his while to redeem the title. He (Mr. Gisborne), howev er , was ready to adm i t that the p ower o f redeeming tithe was valuable; and he hoped, therefore, that although it might be postponed, it was not abandoned. Although it was highly desirable, also, that the tithe should merge in inheritance, and should be no longer known as tithe ; yet he could not help thinking that it was unjust, and might be found inconvenient to lay out so large a sum of money in land. There were other modes, such as the funds and public securities of different kinds, in which at least a portion of it might be invested. Nothing could be more injurious than the pertinacity with which the Church had always thrown impediments in the way of any satisfactory arrangement. Some years ago, when everybody was desir ous of relieving . both the Church and the people from the evils of the existing system, if the Church had not per tinaciously and doggedly set itself against any change a plan for the redemption of tithe would have been car ried into effect. We were now called upon to make up any deficiency that might arise from the operation of the proposed measure out of the consolidated fund. He was willing to take that course, but at the same time he pledged himself that he would never cease his endeavours to repay that money to the consolidated fund out of the revenues of the Irish Church.— (Hear, hear.) He was willing to adopt the proposed resolu tion, not because it was perfectly satisfactory, but because it was the best he could get ; but he repeated, he would never cease to endeavour to effect a repayment to the consolidated, not only of the ecclesiastical deficiency, but of the lay tithe deficiency also. He hoped the Hon. Member for Mid dlesex would not persevere in his amendment. For himself, whenever subjects of this kind were discussed, he always felt disposed to move an humble address to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased never to make another Irish Bishop, and on the death of every Bishop in Ireland that he would be graciously pleased to withdraw a regiment from that country, and on the death of every Dean to withdraw a battalion.—( A loud laugh, and cries of " Move, move.") No, he would withdraw his amendment, and he hoped his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex would withdraw his, and allow them to get a concurrent- vote in favour of the resolution before the House. He had a high opinion of his Majesty's Government, and he was confident that the more the hands of Government were strengthened, the further and the faster Government would be able to go on the road which they wished them to travel. Mr. SHE IL did not desire to throw any vexatious obstacle in the way of the Government where they had manifested the least disposition to take a single step towards justice to Ireland —but he could not avoid remonstrating with them on their perverse, their weak, adherence to the doctrine that the per petuity fund was to be only applicable to the Church purposes. —( Hear, hear, hear.) The resolution charged the entire de ficit on the Consolidated Fund, and then reimbursed that fund, as far as ecclesiastical tithes only were concerned, out of the surplus perpetuity fund ; apply it to the deficit of lay tithes, and then we have at once the recognition of the great principle of disappropt iation from the Church..-4 Cheers.) The 147th clause originally provided that the surplus fund should be ap plied to such purposes as Parliament should think proper. That clause was abandoned, and a sacrifice made to the churchmen ; now is the time to reassert it, instead of sticking to the conservative principle that ecclesiastical possessions are to be applicable to none but ecclesiastical interests.—( Cheers.) Good God ! do the Government, after all their declarations pertinaciously adhere in practice to the principle which we are told that they have relinquished ? But of what avail would be the intreatics of men disposed to support them, where they were right, when they are not roused and excited by the taunts, the contumelious jeering of their conservative antago. nists ? The Member for the University of Dublin re proached them with their pusillanimity, and their former colleague, the late Secretary for the Colonies, whose insiduous friendship was worse than open hostility, had poured out all his acerbites upon his late associates. It was not a little surprising that the Right Honourable Gentleman who sat beside him, in such interestingjuxta-position.—( Loud laughter)—the late First Lord of the Admiralty had contented himself with nodding assent to all that was said by his Right Honourable Associate, and had not, since his desertion of the Ministers, broken a silence which might be judicious, but was certainly remarkable. There they were together, a sort of Parliamentary gemini, shedding their radiance in Conserva tive splendour over the fortunes of Toryism, and intimating serenity to those who had hitherto held their way in the midst of clouds and storms. The Secretary for the Colonies had already spoken three times, explained his motives, and poured forth his amiable emotions ; but the First Lord of the Admi ralty had remained profoundly silent. Is it that it would have been superfluous in him to have spoken, and that all that he could say or feel has been adequately expressed by his brother in resignation 7—( Cheers.) What ! has the Secretary for the Colonies proved a faithful representative, not only of his opi nions, but. of his sensibilities, and expressed all his tender re collections of his old official friendship, and former political associations ? He should address a word or two to both those Hon. Gentlemen, and have done. How could they reconcile their former conduct with their present virulent opposition to Government ? When they voted for reform, and supported it with great vehemence, and resorted to such means to effect it, did they not foresee that the reform of the Church must be the re sult ?—( Cheers.) Did they look before them ? Theydid not want warning at least. The Member for Tamworth again and again exclaimed that the downfall of the Church would inevitably follow what he called their revolutionary innovations. How could they think that the democracy of Ireland could be so strengthened, and the Orange ascendancy laid prostrate, without producing the consequences that are passing before us ? Again, let them look at their own measures. Did they not upset the very cradle of Protestantism when they de stroyed the Kildare-street Society ?—( Loud cheers.) Does the Right Hon. Gent., the late Secretary for the Colonies, remember how he was reviled and reproached by the men who now join him in the church cry ? " You are robbing us," they exclaimed, "of the Bible."—(Loud cheers.) He des pised the Bible shout, and those whom he has abandoned may hold in equal scorn the efforts which are made to arouse the religious passions of the English people. Thos e en d eavou rs have failed; not a petition comes from England to this House, in favour of the abuses of the Irish establishment. Look at Finsbury.—( Laughter from the Tories.) They might laugh at the mention of Finsbury ; but who was the Conser vative candidate ? The man who went with the Member for Dover, on his celebrated hackney-coach expedition to Wind sor, to petition the late King against Catholic emancipation ? _(Loud cheers.) Thi s was th e i n di v id ua l set up on High Church principles, and his discomfiture was not a little omi nous of public sentiment. But to return to the two Right Hon. Gentlemen. Did th ey not vote f or t h e a b olition of ten Irish Bishoprics ? Did they not vote for the suspension of Protestant incumbency in every parish where Divine Service had not been performed for three years ? Was there no prin ciple involved in that measure ? Was it not an admission that the extent of Protestant population was to be taken into account in a parish ? Why not, then, in an entire country ? ( Loud cheers.) The late Secretary for the Colonies exclaims against a reduction of 40 per cent. He himself supported a Bill, reducing the Church property 20 per cent. Then it was only a question of degree. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that it was monstrous to charge the deficit on the consolidated fund. Did he not support the propositi on f or a b o li s hi ng Eng lish church-rates, and substituting a charg e on th e conso lid ate d fund ?—( Loud cheers.) Thus his whole conduct was a tissue of inconsistencies. Let the Government bid him and his con federates defiance. Some one had said, " Now is the time for the Lords." His answer would be " Now is the time for the Commons and the English people."--( Cheers.) Nothing but a little vigour on the part of the Government was requisite to ensure their stability. The Conservatives did not dare take office.—( Laughter from the Conservative benches.) Where fore, then, do they not accept it ? The:Lords are with them ; and the late3Secretary for the Colonies made a significant reference to an illustrious person on a former occasion. Yet, with all their vaunting, they did not venture to stretch the hand to that which was within their reach. Why ? Because they knew that England was against them, and that the weakness, inde cision, and infirmity of the Government, afforded them their only chance. Sir ROBERT PEEL observed, that there were two prin ciples involved in the proposition under the consideration of the Committee to which he objected. The first was, that the public was called upon to contribute a certain sum to make up the deficiency in question; that there was to t be an ab solute charge on the public purse, for which they had no prospect whatever of remuneration of no less than 60,000/. He objected to the principle of that arrange ment.—( Hear, hear.) He objected to the proposition, that, by way of providing for that deficiency, the sum that was set apart last session by a solemn act of the legisla ture, on which arrangement a reform of the Church of Ireland was asked for, was to be violated ; a course of proceeding tending to shake all the confidence in the good faith both of the Legislature and of the Government.—( Hear, hear. ) He objected further to the present proposition, because it was much more open to objection than the measure of Government which was brought in in February, and which constituted the only security for the Church Establishment in Ireland. H e had thought that the object of Government had been to en courage the redemption o f tith es — to e ff ect th e extinction of tithes by the means of redemption.—( Hear, hear, hear.) That was certainly the object of the measure of February. They were now, however, going to make tithes a permanent charge under the name of rent. His Majesty's Government had adopted on this subject the pro position of an Hon. Gentleman; but, to use a figure of She ridan's, having stolen the Hon. Gentleman's child, they so dis figured it that its own father could hardly know it again. : ---( A laugh.) Indeed they had been cutting and hacking at it, so that it now it now made a most miserable figure. But the Noble Lord said " Pay this money out of the Consolidated Fund, and be at peace with Ireland." If indeed the Noble Lord were sure that peace with Ireland would be the result of an acquiescence in his proposition, he was:perfectly warranted in making it. But what shadow of argument had the Noble Lord urged to show that such would be the consequence ? Of all the vulgar arts of Government, the solving of political difti.. cultics by putting their hand into the public purse was the most vulgar.—_.( H ear , h ear .) I t was a course which in all countries, and in all times, was a symptom of weakness and decay. ( Hear, hear.) His Majesty's Government had not the courage . to enfo rce th e l aw ; th ey h a d not the f i rmness to ma i n.. tam just rights ; and ono year after another they called upon Parliament for grants of public money, to meet the evils which their conduct had occasioned.—( Hear, hear.) He would now address himself to the question of redemption of tithes. An Hon. Gentleman had said that it was the Tories who had called for that redemption ; but it had been called for by the Whigs. The course pursued by his Majesty's Government was most complicated and unintelligible. First a commission was ap pointed to value the land ; then the tithes were to be sold for four-fifths of their amount : then a charge was to be made on the land ; then remuneration was to be granted out of the Consolidated Fund : then the deficiency was to be made good out of the public purse. The w' io l e o bj ect seeme d t o be to complicate and delude. Instead o' an open and intelligible Bill of three clauses, they bacl a complicated and unintelli. gible Bill of fifty clauses. But why had they changed their views with respect to redemption ? He did, not compare the present opinions of his Majesty's Government on this subject with theopinions of the Tories ; he did not compare them with their opinions at former and distant periods • but he merely compared their opini ons i n thi s year w ith their opinions last year.—( Hear, hear.) He asked what were the new circum stances which had occasioned their change of determination with respect to the question of redemption ? Evidence was strong and conclusive in favour of redemption. He would not advert to the evidence of any High Churchman or of any Tory, for he knew that that would be far from satisfactory to his Majesty's Government. But there was Archbishop Whately—he must be in full possession of the confidence of his Majesty's Government ; he was a member of the Poor Laws Commission ; he was a member of the Ecclesiastical Commission ; His Majesty's Government must consider him a high authority ; and he' ( Sir Robert Peel) therefore confidently quoted Archbishop Whately's testimony to the su periority of redemption to a rent charge. To his evidence was to be added that of the Lord Lieutenant, that of Mr. Blake (an individual in whom the Government had great confidence), and that of the Marquis of Lansdowne. All were in favour of redemption ; all were in favour of securing tithe, as soon as it was possible to do so, by providing a system of redemption. The Bill which was brought in by his Majesty's Government in February had that effect ; the object of the present propo sition was directly to the contrary. It was not absolutely ne cessary that the value of the tithe should be entirely vested in land. The principle of redemption might be sanctioned with out a complete investment in land, although he certainly thought the investment in land was an additional security. But the Noble Lord did consent to its application to land. Why had he now relinquished the principle of redemption altogether? The redemption did not necessarily imply an in vesting in land. Would the Noble Lord consent to the fund being invested in an Ecclesiastical Corporation? If not, he should, at least, not say that the redemption necessarily implied an investing in land. He had, however, heard the Noble Lord admit that, at least, the landed proprietor had no right to the tithe. They all agreed that it did not belong to him. They all agreed that the Legislature had a right to exact from him the full amount of the tithe, with a reasonable deduc tion for the trouble and risk of collection. If so, why ask the people of England to take a charge upon themselves, by pay ing 60,0001. out of the consolidated fund ? He ( Sir Robert Peel) thought that the first principle of his Majesty's Govern ment on this subject was to secure the property of the Church. If so, were they prepared to enforce that principle in Novem ber next ? If they were thus prepared, why not take those measures which were calculated to effect that object ? The Noble Lord's present statement, however, was quite inconsist ent with the course which he had before recommended. .His Majesty's Government might have adopted one of three courses with respect to the condition of tithes in Ireland. Either they might have declared the perfect inviolability of Church property, which was the course that he ( Sir Robert Peel) and those who thought with him would have chosen ; or, secondly, they might have declared that they thought the establishment too ample, and have recommended a differ ent appropriation of it, which was the course proposed by the Honourable Gentleman ; or, thirdly, they might have declared that they were not prepared to affirm the inviolabiiity of Church property, or the right of Parliament to appro priate it—that they had not made up their minds on the subject. Undoubtedly he had conceived that that third, that intermediate course, was the course which his Majesty's Go vernment had resolved to adopt. He had supposed that, having appointed a commission to examine into the subject, they would not say a word about it until the report of that commission had been received. Nay, he had heard the Right Hon. Member for Cambridge say that it would be a most Irish proceeding to pursue a different course. The Noble Lord said, however, to-night, that he was perfectly ready to act on the principle of the 147th clause ! The Noble Lord who, three night's since, was not sure that there would be a surplus, or, if there was, would limit it to moral and religious pur poses, was now ready to apply it to secular purposes; for cer tainly to give forty per cent. to the Irish landlords was not to apply church property to moral and religious ppurposes.— ( Hear.) Why, what moc k er y was t hi s ? H e h e ld in his hand an Act of Parliament, brought forward by the Noble Lord himself, and supported throughout by him and his colleagues, in which he proposed to relieve the Irish Church Establish ment by abolishing twelve bishopricks. The Noble Lord invited them to assent to the measure, on the grounds that the proceeds of such reductions were to be formed into a fund ap plicable, according to the preamble, to purposes connected with the Church, and in a few months afterwards he asked them to consent to a measure the principle of which was of a totally different character.—( Hear.) They had abandoned the 147th clause of the Irish Church Temporalities Bill, and by so doing, obtained the assent of the other House ; and they had agreed to a preamble, which declared the number of bishoprics could be conveniently diminished, and the funds derivable from them be beneficially applied to the advancement of religion, and to the more assured stability of the United Church of England and Ireland. This they passed in 1833 ; and now, in 1834, they came—to do what ? To show how well the act had worked in the interim—what sums had been realized—how beneficially they had been disposed of?—( A laugh.) No such thing I They had not a shilling to apply for the ad vancement of religion ; and what they did was to lay hold of the first proceeds of the fund—of the first dawning, more pro perly speaking, of that fund—and make a present of it to the Irish landlords, of all persons in the world—( Cheers and laughter)—and not one reason had they assigned for it I If they would take some clear and consistent course—if they would endeavour to act on something like an intelligible prin ciple—if they, for instance, proposed a vote of Parliament for the redress of the wrongs of the Irish clergy—and then a plan for the redemption of tithe, the fund to be placed at the disposal of a corporation ; if they would take such a course as that, assert the supremacy of the law, and then strike at the root of the evil, Honourable Mem bers might indulge some hope of a better state of things ; but when they followed the same unintelligible line of policy —never sure, always varying—when they brought in Bills one day and denied their principle the next—when they passed Acts one Session and went directly in the teeth of them in the following Session—when they told them the first day of the week their minds were really made up--that the surplus, if surplus were found, must be devoted to objects strictly in con nection with religious purposes—and on the last day of the week were found consenting that it should be appropriated to such merely secular purposes as they might hereafter decide upon—to his (Sir R. Peel's) plain view of things, they went on in such a way as to give satisfaction to no party, and to re pudiate that confidence without which the functions of Go. vernment could never be carried on worthily to individuals, or usefully for the interests of society.--( Loud cheers.) But there were reasons for this vacillation—( Cheers from the Con servatives, echoed from the Ministerial benches.) They knew well on those benches opposite there were reasons for all this Cheers.) Depend on it there were reasons— there must be reasons, though all did not yet know them.— ( Cheers.) They were not even then agreed on the question of appropriation.—( Great cheering.) Their commission 1 1 bad been born in a week—the offspring of necessity—of a desire to get any how through the Session.--( Cheers. ) Why Was not the Noble Lord prepared to deal with the principle of appropriation ? Why did he not come to some determination upon it ? ( Hear, hear.) Why thus play with it ?—why longer postpone it? It was better for him, for them, for the people, that the question should not be longer postponed.---( Great cheering.) When they saw the course which the appropriation question would take in regard to the Irish Church, then would they have some data from which to draw their conclusions as to the English Church. He (Sir Robert) would consent to reform ; but he would not consent to any thing which would, in the slightest degree, trench on the inviolability of Church property.—( Cheers. ) But under what circumstances had they passed through the recess ? He ( Sir Robert Peel) smiled at the congratulations which had been indulged in at the arrival of that happy hour when Ministers could boast of an united Cabinet.--( Hear, hear.) Oh yes, they had at length an united Cabinet. ( Laughter.) Now all incumbrances were got rid of—the dead weight was thrown overboard--( Peculiar cries of " Hear, hear")—the clogs on the easy movement of the well-jointed-- the united Cabinet—were all removed—they were unanimous; only let them show confidence in each other, and they would go on excellently.—(Laughter and cheers.) Now, let them look fora moment into the whole of that portion of the Cabinet which constituted the Irish Government. There was, first, his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant ; and then the Lord Chancellor; and then the Chief Secretary. This was what might be termed the Cabinet of Ireland. —( Loud laughter.) When the Right Hon. Chief Secretary returned to Ireland—(Laughter)—of course the Lord Lieutenant (who, it was well known, had been for years the steady and consistent advocate of redemption in conjunction with Mr. Blake, Arch bishop Whateljr, the Marquis of Lansd owne , an d other emi ment authorities), would naturally say to him " well have you brought over the redemption clause ?"—that clause, be it ever remembered, which the Government solemnly sanctioned the principle of by their Bill of last session—" have you brought that clause over? because you know my opinion that there cannot be peace in Ireland till a redemption of tithe is deter mined on, and the principle put into operation. Did I not, in 1824, when I was Lord Lieutenant, send Blake over to Lord Liverpool to persuade him to give effect to the principle of re demption ?" Such would be the natural language of the Lord Lieutenant. The reply of the Chief. Secretary he ( Sir R. Peel) could not divine.--( Hear, hear.) But what would the Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Lord Plunket) say to the com mission ?—( Loud cries of hear, hear.) The extract from the speech of Mr. Plunket, maintaining the inviolability of Church property, and declaring that guarantee there was none for pri vate property if Church revenues were touched, had, according to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, been quoted six or eight times in that House. This speech accorded but strangely with the issuing of the commission.—( Hear, and a laugh.) Why, he would ask, was not the Lord'Chancellor Plun ket named one of the commissioners ?__( Great cheering.) Re posing full confidence in his ability—.acknowledging his great experience—admitting his practical knowledge of the subject— how was it that they did not appoint their own Chancellor on their commission ?—( Cheers.) They appointed their English Chancellor on it—Lord Brougham was one of the Irish com mission.—( Great laughter.) Lard Brougham was appointed one of a commission which was to scour every parish in Ire land, to make important and extensive inquiries, to furnish a vast quantity of valuable statistical information ; but he could not go there—the roving commission must leave him behind, for he was want e d in England.—( Cheers.) Now, he really believed Lord Brougham had never been in Ireland—he cer tainly had no personal knowledge, to any extent, of the country, and yet he was appointed one of the Commissioners ; while Lord Plunket, an Irishman—thoroughly acquainted with the country, filling the highest judicial station—having, of course, much to do from time to time with ecclesiastical matters, was left out of that commission. How was this? Did Lord Plunket disapprove of the commission ?—( Great cheering from the Opposit-i,, answered from the Ministerial benches.) Did Lord Plunket concur or not? Did the Irish Chancellor approve or not of the ultimate object which, accord ing to Ministerial declarations, that commission must have in view ?—( Continued cheering.) If he did approve of it, why was he not on the Commission ? There must be some reason for so unusual an exclusion--what was it? He (Lord Plun ket) was naturally after such a speech as that from which an extract had been read, adverse to the ultimate object of Minis ters, and the omission of his name as one of the Commission, convinced him ( Sir Robert Peel) that the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of Ireland, dissented from that Commission.— ( Great cheering.) Would any one of the now united Cabinet answer his question ? Would any one account for the omis sion of the Irish Chancellor's name?--( Hear, hear.) Well, he could hardly expect an answer to his question—doubtless it was an awkward one.--( A laugh.) Then there was the Coercion Bill.--(Laughter.) There was union for them.— ( Great laughter.) An HoN. MEMBER—The Catholic question. Sir ROBERT PEEL—To be sure it did remind them of old times ; on the Catholic question there certainly was a dif ference of opinion ; but then it was acknowledged—it was openly avowed, and they inherited their lesson from whom— the - Government of 1807.—(Cheers.) But here, on every practical measure, Ministers differed one with another— ( Hear, hear)—on the question of the reduction of tithes-- on the Church Commission—on the Coercion Bill—they all held different opinions, or, at all events, different shades of opinions.—( Hear, hear.) There were three Ministers `for Ireland—the Lord Lieutenant, the Chancellor, and the Secretary ; there were three measures—Tithes, Church Commission, Coercion Bill ; on these three measures these three men all held different opinions, and yet they had an united Cabinet.—( Great laughter, and cheering from both sides of the. House.) But they were told that, within these' few days, all things had been settled ; that they formed now a firm and compact body agreed on principles—all bound by the same opinions. He did not believe it. He was not satis fied. And when he looked to the country—when he saw the rights of property delivered over in Ireland to a Commission —when he saw a number of gentlemen strolling about collect ing information as to the relative number of Catholics and Protestants—when he found rent charges proposed as a sub. stitute for tithes—when he saw the principle of redemption, so heartily avowed last Session by Ministers, now cast heedlessly to the winds—there was, indeed, a prospect presented to his mind much better calculated to depress and alarm, than to encourage and support it.—(Cheers.) Seeing these things—seeing the ambiguous policy that was pursued—the devious and ever-varying path that was taken—that at the very moment he ( Sir Robert Peel) was speaking, there was no such thing as an united Govern ment in the country—that the Cabinet was, in fact, a double minded one, unstable, unequal to the rigorous 'execution of the functions of office—he would consent to no such proposi tion as the one which had been submitted, the ultimate con sequence of which Ministers themselves were totally inade quate to comprehend.—( The Right Hon. Gentleman was loudly cheered for some time after he resumed his seat.) Lord ALTH 0 RP said a few words in explanation, the exact import of which he could not catch. Lord JOHN RUSSELL spoke at some length in defence of a rent-charge in lieu of the present system ; but his argu ments were precisely the same as those used by Mr. Littleton and Lord Althorp. The Noble Lord afterwards proceeded as follows :—The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the Cabinet as a disunited one. He begged to inform him, though he had ventured on the assertion, he bad not proved the fact. He had failed in his object--( Great cheering) he Cabinet was not disunited, whatever hopes might have been indulged on the subject.—( Continued cheers.) On that and on every subject, without an exception, which had reference to Ireland, there was not a shade of a difference of opinion in his Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear.) They had ap pointed a Commission, through whose agency they would ob tain facts—positive facts, and not mere opinions—as to the real state of the Protestant Church in Ireland andthe Protes tant and Catholic population ; that commission, he begged to say, was not a recent thought ( Hear, hear, from several of the Ministers), as the Right Honourable Baronet seemed to say ; and never, in his whole life, was he (Lord John) more astonished than when he heard the assertion that it was so.—(Loud cheers, in which Mr. Littleton's voice was parti cularly heard.) He should maintain his already expressed opinion, that on a subject like this, to legislate effectually, they must know their ground—they must proceed upon facts.-- ( Hear, hear.> Sure, indeed, was he, that if they had not proposed this commission—if they had proceeded at once to legislation, without instituting proper inquiries—without having undeniable data on which to work—they should have been very soon met from a certain quarter of the opposition side of the House, with the argument that inquiry should be first entered on—with the taunt why had it not been entered upon.—( Loud cheers.) They would have heard some very fine sentences indeed in the indignant tone of reprobation—such as they had had a specimen of that night, about sacrilege and so on. But he (Lord J. Russell) would not be taken in the trap.—( Hear, hear.) He would not be induced, by the taunts of the Right Honourable Gentleman to go forward and discuss a question which, when it came properly before them, he would never shrink from ; he was sure the facts would be all before them without any very great loss of time, and he did not think it wise to go more into the subject till that was the case.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet had spoken tauntingly of certain members of the Govern ment not being of the same mind on one or two matters Now, whatever he might suppose, it was not in his (Lord John's) power, perhaps, to correct; but this he could assure him, that he could have conjecture only for his authority. But, supposing it otherwise, should the Right Hon. Baronet be the one above all others to tell them of it? Did he not once belong to a Cabinet where there was openly a difference of opinion on the most vital subject of the period ?—( Hear, hear.) When in that House Secretary answered Secretary— (Loud cheers)—and Minister voted against Minister ? And what was the end of that disunion ? Was it not ended by the Right Hon. Baronet himself coming down to that House and stating that his opinions were not changed, but that such was the state of disunion which the question had wrought in the Cabinet and the Parliament, that there was no hope for the peace of Ireland but by an ample measure of concession and justice.—(Loud cheers.) Supposing the Right Hon. Baronet and others who acted with him came into power and deter mined on maintaining the present appropriation of the revenues of the Irish Church, what would be the result ?—(Hear, hear.) They might, perhaps, by good luck and management, keep their places for two or three uneasy Sessions—they might, with almost adverted eyes, get through two or three cruel and bloody winters—(Hear)—they might see insurrec tion in one point--misery and despair in another—they might for a time- keep down the people of England goaded into a state of wild religious fanaticism—(Loud cheers)—but could this last—could they hope for any length of time to maintain a government whose acts were contrary to every maxim of reason, of policy, and of justice—( Loud cheers.) Could they—would they do this merely in the 'hope of making the Irish a religious people according to their own tenets ? would they have religion instilled into them by troops of dra goons and heaps of Exchequer processes--(Great cheering and confusion, with a cry of " No, no.") He (Lord John) said yes—( Confusion.) He repeated it, such was their object —( In the confusion something was said which we could not catch.) Oh ! to be sure, they did not oblige any man to attend a place of worship if he dissented from their religion— but why, then, he asked, if such was not their object sooner or later—why keep up the Church at its present size, but in the belief that the Roman Catholic would one day or other be brought to their faith—( Loud cheers.) Then he (Lord John) was not wrong in saying that if they were in power, and attempted to keep up the Irfsh Church as at present, there would be one endless scene of warfare and of blood, and after two or three years of vain attempts at maintaining their sys tem, the Right Hon. Baronet would again have to come down to that House, and say my opinions are unchanged.— ( Cheers and laughter.) But the truth must be told— our course of policy is hateful to suffering Ireland— intolerable to indignant England—( Cheers.) You, gen tlemen fro m Oxford and other places—(Loud laughter)—must renounce the opinions you have hitherto acted upon, and join in giving effect to a measure of concession and justice as large and as ample as that which was wrung from us some years back by the Catholic portion of our countrymen.—( Cheers. ) Feeling persuaded that this would have been the course of those who now opposed the government, he thought it the bet ter and wiser way to undertake this question at present. If gentlemen choose to say that the resolution involved spoliation, involved sacrilege, he would not now dispute the point with them.--( Hear.) It was not his opinion. He thought, on the contrary, that by a g reeing to this Bill, they were laying the foundation of what had not been hitherto effected—that was a permanent commutation of tithes ; and he did hope that in the course of the next year they would settle that other more difficult question of the appropriation of tithes? Mr. CHRISTMAS rose amid great confusion, and cries of " Question." He was understood to declare that he would vote against the measure, because it did not go to support the principle of a Church Establishment. Mr. WALKER, amidst similar interruptions, expressed his adhesion to the Government, because the alterations pro posed were concessions and improvements as now proved by the kind of opposition they excited. No greater boon was granted to the landlords of Ireland than under the circum stances of the case they were entitled to receive. Mr. HODGE S wished Ministers would not delay bringing in a measure to correspond with their declarations respecting appropriation. It was not, therefore, on account of the ap proximation of this Bill, and the principle of the 147th clause, that he should be obliged to vote against them.— ( Laughter.) What he objected to was the grant of a sum of money out of the consolidated fund. (Hear, hear.) If he thought it would tranquillize Ireland, no man would be more ready to grant it than himself; but could any one suppose that the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin or his friends would, directly or indirectly, give a pledge not to agitate the repeal of the Union ?—( A laugh..) It was vain to expect tranquillity in Ireland till legal provision was made there for the relief of the poor.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. ELLICE said, that if he thought the proposition now before the House was to have the effect of taking money out of the consolidated fund, to apply to the uses of Irish landlords, he would join the Hon. Member for Middlesex in opposing it. —( Hear, and a laugh.) He wished to explain what the pro position before the House was. According to the original provisions of the Bill, twenty per cent. was to be deducted from the rent charge compulsorily imposed upon the Irish landlord. This additional twenty per cent. was to be offered to him as an inducement to undertake the voluntary payment of that rent charge. That additional allowance would be made to him when that great good was effected for the public, of absOlutely relieving the occupying tenant from the burthenof tithes.—(Cheers.) He could not conceal from himself the increased danger which accompanied every renewed attempt to force this wretched payment from the peasantry _of re land,--‘ Cheers. ) Gentlemen pretend to compare the con dition of the Church in Ireland with the condition of the Church in England, and the condition of the Irish with that of the English payers of tithes ; but he asked now, as he had before, on the occasion of the debate so often referred to, would any county in England have submitted for one year to the 10,000 tithe processes which had issued out of the Ecclesiasti cal Courts of Ireland ?—( Cheers.) He asked gentlemen whether any English county . would, for half the time Ireland has, have endured these grievances—have submitted to see poor cotters, labourers, dependent upon the rates, processed for these miserable three-pences and four-peuces. at was to put an end to this system that the Government now stepped forward.—( A cry of "No ! " from the Opposition.) Whe ther right or wrong, that was the honest intention of Ministers. He was willing to take the risk of non-repayment of this ad vance for the certain good it would produce, for it must be al ways borne in mind that not one shilling would be paid to the landlords without our having previously obtained the advan tage of relieving the Irish tenant from this burthen.—( Cheers. ) Mr. GO ULB URN denied that the Bill would relieve the cottier from the charge of tithe. Tenants who had no leases were excluded already by the Bill of the late Right Hon. Se cretary for the Colonies, which had in such cases imposed the burden at once upon the landlord.—{ Hear, hear. As to te nants with leases, he denied that they either would get any relief whatever under this Hear, hear.) The landlord would get a remission, but would have the power of exacting the whole amount from the tenant in the first instance, in the direct shape of tithes, and ultimately in the shape of rent. It was, therefore, a false representation of the Bill to say that it would relieve the cottier tenant. _ Mr. ELLICE said, that the landlord, when he made a vo luntary composition, would only recover from his tenant the reduced amount, and that surely was a relief to the tenant. The tenant would be a gainer by three-fifths of the tithes. Mr. GOULBURN—That is a very different statement from the last.--( Cheers from the Opposition.) The grievance stated was the issuing of 10,000 processes, and the persona liable to process remain the same, except in so far as they have been reduced by the Bill of the late Right Hon. Secre tary for the Colonies.—( Cheers.) Mr. ELLICE—The question of advantage entirely depends upon whether the landlord takes the debt upon himself volun tarily. Unless he does there will be no advance from the con solidated fund. Mr. O'fi.E IL LY, amidst much confusion, was understood to say, he should support the measure as a boon as far as it went. • Mr. LITTLETON also rose amidst much noise and mani fest signs of impatience to divide. He said : "My Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Stanley), if he will permit me so to call him—( Laughter)—in his very temperate and singularly friendly speech, was pleased, in adverting to the manner in which the clauses of this bill had been changed, to designate me as a thimble player. —( Loud laughter.) I receive his joke in per fectly good part I assure him, although I certainly think it of a strange nature to come from one who, if any man deserves the title, is certainly the greatest performer of legerdemain that ever practised upon the tithe laws , of Ireland.—( Cheers and laughter.) I do not mean to say anything that can give offence. By no means ; but it is impossible for any gentle man who bears in mind the part taken by the Right Honourable Gentleman on the tithe question in 1831, in 1832, and down to the period he quitted the post I have now the honour to fill, not to be aware that no individual could in the same space of time have made more experiments in legislation with re gard to any species of property, or could have more signally failed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Do I mean to reproach my Right Hon. Friend in saying this ? Far from it. I supported him, as I thought, with reason—certainly with zeal ; and if ho failed, it was in common with the Government and the majo rity of the House ; but I do still say, that the observations he permitted himself to make on the part it has been my misfor tune to be obliged to take, came with a singularly bad grace from my Right Hon. Friend.—(Hear, hear, hear.) After all his honest and able efforts, how does the property of the tithe owner stand now ? Not three weeks have elapsed since I forwarded to the Treasury a bill for 6001. to defray the charge of a waggon-train, which my Right Hon. Friend, in his in genuity, had ordered out in Ireland, for the purpose of trans porting the smaller and more valuable effects of the peasantry from the districts where they were taken to remote parts, where the sources from which they were derived might be un known.—(Tremendous cheering.) I blame not my Right Hon. Friend for the invention of this ingenious resource ; but again I say that the remarks he has made come with a pecu liarly bad grace from him.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for the University, on this, as on former occasions, has indulged in predictions as to the course of events with respect to this property. Let the House bear in mind that he has solemnly predicted that we shall never be able to recover one farthing of the money ad vanced out of the Consolidated Fund. Now I beg the Com mittee to recollect that he made an equally solemn prediction Jest session with respect to the course which would be pursued by the clergy of the Established Church in reference to the advance of money then offered. He said that if he knew any thing of the spirit of devotion which animated the clergy, they would not pollute their fingers with one farthing of that money.—( Hear.) Yet, sir, a week, aye, a month before the period limited for the delivery of their memorials and sche dules, the castle-yard in Dublin was blackened with the coats of these great men, the constituents of the Hon. Member, whose principles of acting he was so well acquainted with, coming to make their claims.--( Cheers.) Ido not yield to him in my respect , for that body of men ; for I believe that, as a body, they are as exemplary and excellent as the clergy of England themselves. For their sufferings and privations, therefore, I have the sincerest sympathy. When the Hon. Gentleman and my Right Hon'. Friend insist so strongly on the injustice of our course, let them reflect on the state of the property of the Church at this moment.--( Hear, hear, hear.) Let me tell them one short story as an illustration of what is now passing in the middle, west, and south of Ire land, where the clergy have not had the prudence to avail themselves of the relief offered them under the act of the last session. I will not mention names, but the case is one of a clergyman, who is also an impropriator, and occurred in the south of Ireland. The tenantry were indebted to him altogether about 3,9001. or thereabouts. For seven weeks he had the assistance of a large military force : it was employed, unceasingly, on the most harassing of all duties ; b u t a ft e r a time it was found vain to employ the troops by day, for a uni versal alarm was spread through the country, and the cattle disapperred. The plan of marching them by night was adopted ; but as very cottier keeps his d og , th e t ramp li ng o f the horses made them give the alarm, and by the time the troops arrived the cattle were driven by th e peasants i nto their houses, where the law made it impossible to touch them. What was the result ? That this individual wrote to the Lord Lieutenant at Dublin on the subject, stating that after all his efforts for thirty days and nights he had not at the utmost col lected more, on the average, than 81. per day. He, therefore, prayed the Lord Lieutenant to order an increase of force to be encamped in small detachments all over the property, as the only means of obtaining success was to starve the cattle out.—( Hear.) Mr. 0' CONN E L L.—Were there not five lives lost? Mr. LITTLETON—The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin says that five lives were lost. I was not aware of the fact, or it has escaped my memory ; but it may be so. I re gret extremely having been forced to make any statement of this description, for I know that the mere recital of such a successful effort of passive resistance may operate as an en couragement to it in future. For this reason I should not have mentioned it, except in the hope of convincing Hon. Members by so forcible an example of the consequences of the course they would have us pursue, what an erroneous view they take of the interests of this country. The Right. Hon. Gentleman complained of the abandonment of the plan of in vesting the funds of the Church in land. But if redemption was abandoned, the plan of investment in land was necessarily so likewise ; for in the present state of the Money-market I do not see how we could have raised an income for the clergy. But the investment of land, although it had its advantages, was open to some objections. In the first place, it was ob jected to by the great majority of the landowners, which, in legislating for Ireland, I deem an objection to be attended to. A further objection was found in the increased poli tical influence which it would have given to the clergy ; this also I think a fair objection : I should not, however, have yielded to it, unless I had been able to discover a mode of realising an income for the tithe owners, independently of this. My Hon. Friend concluded his able address—when are not his addresses able ?—by inveighing against the commission which is to be issued. lam proud to be at liberty to say, that no member of the Government has been more zealous for the appointment of that commission than myself. Any attempt to settle the Irish church question by any other mode would be unavailing, because unjust. Those who object to it do so for good and sufficient cause.—( Hear, hear, hear.) They know that that commission must produce a report, which will contain a statement of facts, on which, if cunning and party should not succeed in shifting the honesty and common sense of the country—( Cheers)—something must be done. It will bring about such a knowledge of facts as must put an end to the grievances complained of. It will be a most useful ma nual for the people of England, and will explain fully the grounds on which the Government proceed, and if this mea sure should fail, it will serve as a sure basis for future opera tions. I must beg leave to read to my Right Hon. Friend what I must own struck me some time ago as worthy of his attention. It is an extract from his celebrated speech against the motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex in 1824. It was, I believe, the first he delivered, and pro duced a great effect upon the House.—( The Right Hon. Gentleman here read an extract from Mr. Stanley's speech delived on the occasion referred to, in which Mr. Stanley ex pressed his hope that some impartial commission should go forth to examine into the whole of the political and moral rela tions of this question.) Now, till this commission was ap pointed, had any such commission as i s here described gone forth ? My Right Hon. Friend appo i nted a commission to inquire into the revenues of the Church ; but that was certainly partail in its bearing.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The commission now appointed is completely and accurately described in the the speech of my Right Hon. Friend, as the one thing neces sary to be appointed.—(Cheers.) I have only one more re mark to make, which will beaddressed t o t h e H on . an d Learned Member for the University of Dublin. I know not what share he may have had in the production I am about to read to him, but I have no doubt he has some acquaintance with it, for it s pe a ks what I believe to be his own sentiments. isteotsf making origin here At no distant period this circul ar was su b m i tte d to t h e c l erg y of Ireland, h aving ad i : G —Ll r t nm is e u n n t d t e e r m st p oo or d ary that the trus teese the l'it of tli Tithe l3ille n land tax, will ma k e th em p ermanen t t rus t ees , with out power of rede m pti on or li m i ta ti on . Will t h e c l erg y con sent to their friends resisting, in a manner which may even tually throw out the Bill, and leave them to the composition, or will they submit to the partial plunder of themselves and total ruin of their sucessors ?"—( Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. SH A W—l never heard o it. Mr. LITTLETON—I know not what answer the elerr the very ,rth al