The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

wailed upon to support his political limes but he had never endeavoured to exert his power, such as it was, and had never attempted to bring any of his family into Par liaments It had never been an object of ambition with him to establish a Parliamentary interest ; but had he possessed it, let the extent be what it might, he should have been glad to relinquish it for the sake of the great be neficial change the Bill before the other House was in tended to accomplish.—( Hear, hear.) He would, there fore, leave that matter without farther answer, and would proceed to notice the point of the boro ug h s to b e disfran chised, and of the places to which the right of representa tion was to be communicated. A certain line had been drawn, the object being to secure in all instances a suffi cient constituency ; and here he must remark, that his Noble Friend was much mistaken if he thought - that in all cases the measure would give a most extensive consti tuency. The matter was to be regulated according to the population returns, and its some instances fifty, sixty. seventy, or eighty voters would be the amount, unless ad- ditions were made to raise them, as was wisher', to about three hundred. Boroughs would be divided into two classes—the incurable and the curable. The incurable were to be disfranchised ; and, fur the curable, it was hoped that such an addition would be made to the elective body, and such a public spirit introduced as to prevent corruption and misconduct in fiateres Then came the question, what new places ought to be embraced by a mea sure of the kind ? Here he begged leave to recal his Noble Friend's recollection to the assertion he had hazarded, that in no part of the Bill could he find a recurrence to any ancient principle. He (Lord Durham) asserted, both with regard to the enfranchisement of large towns, and to the extension of the right of voting to 101. householders, that the Bill did recur to ancient. principle. —(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend hod mentioned the borough of Bossiney, and other) of that description, which had been created in order to strengthen the bands of the Crown and Nobility. He (Lord Durham) ad mitted, that such had unquestionably been the fact, at the period to which his Noble Friend had alluded ; but he might to have gone back to a much earlier date, if be wished to recur to ancient principle. That ancient prin ciple had been laid down most distinctly and unanswer ably, by a writer of the highest authority, who had been cited by his Noble Friend, Lord John Russell He trusted that the House would bear with him while he read the passage, because upon it he was willing to rest the vindi cation of the course taken by Ministers. " Things of this world (said Locke, in the 13th chapter of his second book on Civil Government) arc in so Constant a flux that nothing remains long in the tratne state. Thus people, riches, trade, power, change their stations, flourishing mighty cities come to ruin, and prove in time neglected desolate corners, whilst other unfrequented places grow into populous countries, filled with wealth and inhabi tants. i But things not always c h ang i ng equa lly, an d pri vate interest often keeping up customs and privileges, when the reasons of them have ceased, it often comes to pass that in Governments, where part of the legislature consists of representatives chosen by the people, that in tract of time this representation becomes very unequal and disproportionate to the reasons it was first established upon." After commenting on the absurdity of places without inhabitants returning Members to Parliament, the same great authority proem-led thus :—" Salt's poptili supreme lee is certainly so just and fundamental a rule, that lie who sincerely follows it cannot dangerously err. If, therefore, the executive, who has the power of convok ing the legislative, observing rather the true proportion than fashion of representation, regulates, not by old custom, but true reason, the number of Members in all places that have a right to be distinctly represented, which no part of the people, however incorporated, can pre tend to, but in proportion to the assistance which it affords to the public : it cannot be judged to have set up a 'tow legislative, but to have restored the old and true one, and to have rectified the di-orders which succession of time had insensibly as well as inevitably introduced.— (Hear, hear.) Upon this principle, and upon no other, had Ministers proceeded; and they had enfranchised the largest and most populous towns of Great Britain accord ing to the population returns of 1821. He now came to that part of the question which had inspired his Noble Friend with so mach alarm—the communication of the right of voting to 101. freeholders. The individual case his Noble Friend had adduced of one of his own neighbours, proved that he was a very good master, but did not prove that his neighbour ought not to possess the right of voting. The House of Commons had formerly passed a resolution that where no custom by charter of incorporation existed, the right of franchise was in the householders ;" and the present measure did not go farther than the reso lution of the House of Commons, nor adopt any principle unknown to the Constitution.—(Hear, hear.) According to the tax-office returns, as far as they were correct, the number of persons in England and Wale=, rated tohouses of 10!. a year and upwards, was 378,786, and of these only 116,000 were houses of rents between 101. and 15/. a year; therefore, less than one-third of the constituency consisted of the lowest description of voters. The total population of England and Wales was fourteen millions. In Scotland there were 36,700 of such a rent as to give the occupier a vote, of which only 17,900 were of a rent between 10/. and 151. a year. Hence it was obvious that the most gross mistakes had been made regarding the sup posed amazing increase of the constituency under the pro posed measure. So far from granting universal suffrage, it might be said with much more justice,that it ball not granted it sufficiently. How had the Noble Baron attempted to show the extent to which it would confer the right ? But refer ring to the case of Liverpool, wherehe maintained that there would be 25,000 persons entitled to vote,when the fact was that there were only 19,000 houses of above 10/. a year in the place. He now came to the advantages of the mea sure, and among the foremost would be the laying that spirit of discontent which some urged was abroad, the ob ject of which was to destroy the House of Lords, and to put an end to the monarchical form of Government in this country. If any such disposition existed, which he (Lord Durham) (lid not believe, where could the King or their Lordships look for surer or firmer friends than among the middle classes—the ten-pound housekeepers ? Supported by such a body, the enemies of the Peerage, or of the Monarchy, would soon meet a signal and disgraceful discomfiture. In his conscience he believed that no such spirit existed, and he was persuaded that the lower orders were most sincerely attached to the Monarchy and to the maintenance of the three estates—Kings, Lords, and Com mons, as the sources of their welfare and security; of all the nations in the world, the lower orders of England would be least disposed to change either for a theoretical republic or a pure despotism.— (Cheers.)—The object of the Bill was to leave the Peers in possession of all their privileges—the Crown in the enjoyment of all its prero gatives—but to give the people at large that share in the Government, of which, by the lapse of time and the pro gress of corruption, they had long been deprived. It interfered with no existing right but in rotten boroughs. The property of nominees, and all other voters, even bur gesses and pot-wallopers, were allowed to preserve their rights as long as they lived, so that the constituency would be gradually and daily improved. As little injustice as possible had been done, and as much good as possible accomplished. His Noble Friend had made a sarcastic reference to the power to be reposed in the Privy Council ; but the Ministers had chosen that body only because they thought, from the rank, talents, and situation of its Members, it would he above suspicion, and could not be charged with impartiality in its decisions, or with being operated upon by the influence of the Crown and Government. He now come to the gravest charge— that the measure was revolutionary : in no measured terms it had been charged that the Bill was revolutionary, and that its tendency was to destroy the Constitution, and to put an end to our present happy form of Government. He (Lord Durham) was not to be scared by the use of a few hard words, and until lately he had always heard the term revolution connected with the epithets happy and glorious—the happy and glorious revolution of 1688— (Hear.)—Why now, for the first time, was it to be looked to with terror and aversion, or why now, for the first time, was the glorious revolution of 16S8 to be for gotten, and the French revolution of 1789 only to be re membered ? Where was the analogy between this mea sure, or what was it likely to produce, and the French revolution ? The people of France, forty years ago, rose and massacred their superiors because their reasonable re monstrances were contemned—their just claims refused ; they did not commit these acts in the exultation of success, but in the recklessness of despair; and it was to prevent such a dreadful crisis in this country that the measure of Reform was introduced. The people of Great Britain made certain demands—those demands were found just ; and to comply with them would deprive the enemies of our happy form of Government of the best means of at tack. Instead, therefore, of destroying the Constitution, the Bill would consolidate and strengthen it, and rally round it in an impregnable phalanx of supporters. Re curring to the glorious revolution of 1688, he might ob serve, that it was made a matter of charge by Lord Boling broke, that the great error at that period was, that the independence of Parliament had not been a d equa t e ly se cured : the measure before Parliament provided a remedy for that defect. It was singular that the chief opponents of this plan had been the main supporters of the Ro man Catholic Relief Bill. That relief haul been most wisely afforded—it was not only reasonable and expedient, but most strictly just to admit the Roman Catholics to a share in the Constitution ; and the result had been already iiighly besn-ficial in allowing new Members of great weight and t-dents to take their seats in both Houses of Pailia ment. That measure was a great change—an important improvement in the Constitution ; but surely it was hot for those who had advocated it now to say that no other change—no other improvement ought to be attempted. Having thus gone through the principal arguments again , t the Bill, he would merely say that Ministers had not the slightest obj ec ti on t o the motio n o f th e N o bl e Lot i (Wharncliffe.) On the contrary, they wished that the fullest information should be laid before the House, for the more the subject was canvassed the more the necessity for the Bill would he demonstrated. Ministers had been ac tuates' by no desire for change : they were only desirous to revive and restore. They were anxious that the Crown should possess all its just prerogatives—the House of Lords all its undoubted privileges; but they were anxious, too, that the rights of the people should be understood and established. Far from wishing to diminish the 'plendour of the Crown, they were endeavouring to give it fresh lustre, and to add to it another jewel, eclipsed in brilliancy b'y none it already possessed—stile love and confidence of a fairly represented and well satisfied people. —( Hear, hear.) Lord WILVIINCLIFFE explained. The Blake of RICHMOND referred to what had been said regarding the protest he and others had signed against the disfranchisement of 150,000 forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland, and contended that it was not consistent with his support of the Reform Rill, which had for its object the disfranchisement of corrupt boroughs. He had objected to dept ive the freeholders of Ireland of their rights, be cau,e they were to b! the innocent victims of a hard law, igainst whom no misconduct had been established, and who had just:emancipated themselves from subserviency and bondage to their landlords. He supported the dis• franchisement of rotten boroughs, because their guilt was undeniable and their corruption admitted. He had pro te ted against the disfranchisement of the Irish forty-shil lim,r freeholders, because they were condemned unheard; and he supported the Reform Bill, because after having been heard by the ablest advocates, the Members for Tam worth and Boroughbridge, the Members and nominees of rotten boroughs had been convicted of being unfit longer to enjoy the privilege they had so grossly misapplied.— The last clause of his protest had stated his " willingness and anxiety to correct proved abuse." The abuse here was proved, and he would do his utmost to correct it. The charge against him of inconsistency was therefore merely empty and futile. As to the general principle of the mea sure, it seemed to him no more unwise or improper to cor rect defects in the representative system, than it would be in the Commander-in• Chief to correct defects! in the military system of the country. Old Sarum, Corfe Castle, Gatton, Westbury, and Wareham, ought to be placed upon the worn-out and superannuated establish ment, and their places supplied by the full-grown man hood of Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester. He would not detsin tiseir Lordships any longer. He would only say he hoped their Lordships would not refuse their sanction to a Bill which was the offspring of long deliberation—the result of the reflection of au unanimous Cabinet—and which would soon come before them. He trusted that they would not refuse their sanction to a mea sure which must have the effect of uniting the hearts of all his Majesty's subjects, which would increase their re pect for, awl their confidence in Parliament, and their affection for their Sovereign. Their Lordships, he was sure, would not refuse their sanction to a measure which satisfied the just expectations of reasonable people, which would give permanent security to property, and perpetual stability to the throne.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY briefly defended himself from the charge of inconsistency made against him by the Noble Duke. If he were inconsistent, it was not because he had been a Whig, and had now become a Tory, nor yet because he had been opposed to the Catho lics, and had now become their friend. Fie bad not, like the Nob e Duhe, joined the Whigs, whom be 11.1 d always opposed.—(flear, hear.) The Marquis of CLANRICARDE only wished to con gratulate their Lordships on the probable results of this measure, and be was sure their Lordships would not depart from their usual line of conduct, and now set themselves, for the first time, in opposition to the people. Consider ing that their Lordships had beeen specially summoned, and that their discussions had a great influence, or ought to have, on public opinion, which it was their duty to guide, he must say that he thought that night one of the most disgraceful for their Lordships which he ever remem bered. He did not think it necessary to eulogise the de tai!‘ of the EN, or state his reasons for supporting it. He should be prepared, when their Lordships came to vote upon the measure, to justify his conduct, and showed, that in following what he considered the line of his duty, he had swerved from no principle he had ever adopted. He meant certainly to support, and he hoped their Lordships would also support a measure which had been received by the unanimous acclamations of the people, and was sanctioned by the House of Commons and the King's Go vernment.—( Hear.) Lord PLUNKS FT rose to address their Lordships ; hut speaking with his hack to the Bar, and in a much less animated manner than he was wont, he was very imper fectly heard. We understood his Lerd•hip to say, that the present was certainly a very inconvenient time for dis cussion, and he would not then take the liberty of address ing their Lordships, if it were not that he was afraid of not having another opportunity of delivering his opinion on the subject. He could not say, in approaching and consider ing the question of Reform, that momentous question, that he did not feel a considerable degree of alarm and dread. He felt convinced that the plan would make a very important change in the House of Commons; but he must at the same time own, that he felt himself relieved from alarm when he found that the Bill was to r -store what was ori- ginall• considered as the Constitution of the country. It was at first stated that the measure was calculated to in troduce a now system ; but, after a short timo, that enun ciation was abandoned. At first it was stated that there was no necessity for any Reform, and it was now four months since that opinion was announced. It had been persevered in till nearly the end of a seven days' discus sion, and had never been formally relinquished. At the close of that period, with a tardy candour, or he might call it a reasonable prudence, it was admitted that all Re form was not revolutionary. The principle, then, of Re form was no longer knocking at the outer door and re fused admittance—it had been admitted within doors ; and its demands, it was admitted, were not altogether unrca- sonable. Those who did not agree in those demands did not deny them altogether—they only wished to avoid prompt payment, and asked to pay by instalments. He was at a ►oss to understand how Noble Lords and lion. and Right lion. Gentlemen meant to meet the question under these circumstances. He had not heard of one person who did not agree thatßeform was justand proper, only they quarrel led with the degree and extent of the Reform proposed. They abstained, nevertheless, from stating how far they were wil ling to go. The Noble Lord who had introduced the question with great ability and, he would add, with great fairness,had employed a tone in discussing the subject, and made ad missions which were not calculated to obtain for him the support of these Noble Lords who sat around him, and he had not found a seconder.—(Hear, hear.) That Noble Lord had stated that the claims of the people were irre sistible—(hear, hear)—and that some degree of Reform was absolutely necessary. The Noble Lord had referred to the opinion of Mr. Canning, but he did not think the supposition of what the opinions of dead men might be were they now alive, ought to guide the opinions of living men. How could he, or any man, say that if Mr. Can ning were now alive, his opinion would not be changed like the opinion of the Noble Lord ? and how could he say that Mr. Canning would not now think some Reform necessary. The Noble Lord, who was warmly attached to Mr. Canning, was as much opposed to Reform at one time as Mr. Canning. They ought, therefore, to consider the nature of the question before them, and not endeavour to guess at the opinions of those who were not alive to speak for themselves. 'What then did he prove ? Why, that the persons who were lately at the head of the Go ment of this country, of whom lie wished to speak with great respect, particularly of the Noble Duke who was then at the head of that Government—they found that these people—and he did not sly it as exciting feelings of degra dation—he found these gentlemen obliged to resign the Government, and obliged to resign it because they could not resist the pressure for Reform. To that pressure the present Government had acceded ; and now their oppo nents ' pressed on them because they had taken up the principle of Reform.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, what was to become of the country? Did the persons who resisted, under such circumstances, the plan of Reform, look at the consequences? If those who op posed this Bill as going too far had some safe or practi cable plan of Reform of their own, why did they not bring in a Bill of their own? Those who thought that this mea sure was going too far, ought to lay their own side by side, that both might be judged of. Was it to be ex pected that Noble Lords, who had been distinguished through their lives for supporting Reform—who had de voted their lives to the subject—was it to be expected that they should give up their plan ? Were they, in power, to abando❑ the principles for which they had contended in Opposition, and cover themselves with disgrace ? His Noble Friends were accused of exciting the public; but the people hail not been excited—they had been quieted by agitating this measure. If they abandoned ther plan, and retired from the Government, they would not only cover themselves with disgrace, but they would prepare a more arduous task for their successors than ever was im posed on them, for they would destroy all confidence in the Government and in public men. There would be no means left of governing the country, and it would he plunged in all the horrors of anarchy. He, therefore, felt himself much relieved from the embarrassment of making a choice. There was a time of great public ex citement : the vessel of the State, deeply laden, was ex posed to violent storms—the pilot had abandoned the helm, giving up the vessel to the fury of the tempest; at that juncture his Lord seized the helm ss ith a steady hand ; he was an experienced pilot ; the crew had confidence in him, and he pointed out a port into which he purposed to conduct the vessel. Every honest man was bound to assist him.--(Cheers.)—lt was an additional recommen dation, too, that he was directing the course to a well known haven, and did not purpose to explore any un tried, and perhaps dangerous, shores. He might be content with having made these few observations, but he could not avoid troubling their Lordships with a few observations on some of the topics which had been urged, not to reject, but to damage the measure. It had been charged with hieing revolutionary, which was a most offen sive abuse of terms; but that charge was now abandoned. It was then said, " if it is not a revolution, it is a great and extensive change." Suppose it is a great and exten sive change, does any pet son mean to say that great and extensive changes are unconstitutional? Those who said that mu-t have been very inattentive readers, and very unacquainted with our history, which afforded us many examples of remarkable changes when the Constitution re claire(' them. He found the people of England at all times clinging to one great principle; the polar star which guided them at all times—at least through a period of one thousand years, during which the Constitution hail been preserved—was the principle, that it was the people's birthright that the freedom of their persons and the en joyment of their property was not to be injured or affected but by their own consent. They bad at all times given effect to that great principle. That was the basis of their free Government, and that principle all the rules and re gulations, which we e the offspring of times and circum stances, were intended to carry into effect. They never had the folly to say that this great principle should bend to rules and regulations, but they always adapted their rules and regulations to this principle. Nothing could be more revolutionary in relation to this great principle than to adopt some stickfast resolution, which would prevent this principle from being at all times acted on. Looking at facts, did not our history abound 'with great changes ? Was not the Reformation, which altered all the pro perty of the church, a great change—a salutary change indeed, but a great change ? Was not the Act of Henry VI , by which the great body of the freeholders was excluded, and the franchise conferred on those who held a freehold of 40s. a great change? What did their Lordships say to the Union with Scotland, which altered the whole Parliamentary Constitution of the country ? Or what did they say to the Union with Ireland ? Were not these great and extensive changes? He could enumerate many more changes, but he would content himself with advert. lug to that last and great change which admitted the Catho lics into the bosom of the State. These were all great and rapid changes. What would their Lordships say to the King's power and prerogative to issue writs for new places ? That was a permanent machinery for perpetual change. That power had been, perhaps, unduly exercised and there had resulted a great abuse ; and were, they not to exercise the prerogative of P,rliament, and get rid of that :those ? Those who thought such an improvement was contrary to the Constitution, must have read history less as statesmen, less with a view to the institutions of the country, than with the curiosity of antiquaries. They had not searched into the mind of history—they had not sought to understand the legend engraved on it—they were ena moured exclusively of the rust.—(Hear, hear.) There had been, then, great changes when great objects had been to be obtained ; and what was the object now ? He admitted it was to make one important change, but a greater change had taken place in the state of the country since the revolutions in 1688, than in all previous time up to the conquest. Manufactures and commerce had grown up, and the middle classes had become of importance. That class now possessed intelligence and wealth, and were as well able to judge of State matters as their Lordship.— The spread of light and intelligence among the people was, he knew, considered by some people an evil—not by him ; for when men were instructed and intelligent, they were obedient and well-behaved. These classes were now de manding their abate of the Constitution ; and was it not better to unite them to that Constitution, than to make them the enemies of it ? He recommended them to purify their institutions, and to satisfy the intelligence of the people. It was said that ours was an admirable Constitu tion, and worked well. That be admitted ; but it worked well, and was admirable, in spite of the rotten borough system. These were the accidents of our Constitution.— The Reform Bill was intended to do away with these acci dents, and retain only those essentials which were required for the well-working of this admirable Constitution. Hia Lordship concluded by apologising for having addressed their Lordships, and on sitting down was cheered. The LORD CHANCELLOR—He owed no little apology to their Lordships for troubling them with any further discussion of this subject under the existing cir cumstances at this late hour of the night, but he still more owed an apology to his Noble and Learned Friend who preceded him, when he rose to say anything after him, before there was even a shadow of reply to his clear, energetic, argumentative, and unanswerable speech. But although he agreed with the Noble Viscount, who was a great authority on these subjects, and with some of those who spoke after him, that it was not necessary on the present occasion to go minutely into the details of the measure, yet he could in no way admit that it was any way unbecoming or improper in him to take this oppor tunity of stating his sentiments on the Bill generally, and on its particular parts. The Noble Lord who opened the debate felt himself compelled to admit, in the course of his argument, that the measure was supported by the petitions of all classes of the community, which came pouring in upon us in boundless variety, and in countless numbers, almost all of them expressing the most ardent desire that their Lordships should strenuously support the measure, and speed it to the foot of the throne. No dis cussions had taken place on the presenting of these petitions without again debating the subj ct in that irregular and incidental manlier; but still the discussions went on, and the protests were made. Still the opponents of the mea sure discussed and protested, but repeated that it was irregular to enter upon a debate of this grand question merely on the presentation of petitions. " Wait (they said) till the opportunity comes ; stay till the subject comes regularly under discussion, and then we shall have the advantage of that period when our mouths shall be un locked—when our mouths are no longer shut—when there shall be nothing to chill our ardour, or to blight our genius—then we shall rush to the arena, and meet us who dare."—(Hear, hear.)—Accordingly a movement was made by these expert tacticians, and the Noble Lord who commenced the debate, gave a notice for him self and others, that they would bring the subject in a regular shape under discussion. But lo ! it was with drawn. How happened that? More petitions were pre sented, and more conversations took place—additional pe titions came, and additional irregul an ties followed ; but still they kept on the reserve. They would not enter into the discussion, but represented that they would keep the feast on the feast-day. But finding that this would not answer the purpose, another notice was given, and then every one asked, " How is this, that having made your escape out of the jaws of the lion, meaning the friends of the measure, into which you bad so incautiously almost fallen—how is it that you venture again into such imme diate danger ?" The answer was, that the plan of keep ing aloof might be carried too far, that petitions upon pe titions were still pouring in upon Parliament, and that it was necessary to have a debate. Well, the notice was given. The debate was of their own seeking. The Mi nisters did not seek it, although they were anxious for it, and glad that it was soon to come. They spoke of pre mature and unwanted discussion ; but if it was a prema ture and unwanted discussion, it was of their own seeking. Why, what has this House been about almost the whole of this Session? What had their Lordships been discussing all along but measures which had come into the other House only, or those which had not come at the time into Parliament at all? They had been discussing time after time the duties on timber. They had been employed re peatedly in discussing the measure of Reform before it had been brought into the other House of Parliament. Nay, they had even employed themselves—did not the Noble Viscount's hair stand on end with horror ?—they had been employed in that House in discussing taxes, not only before the Tax Bills came into that House, but even before they were brought into the House by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. But to say that a discussion was unwanted on a motion of their own seeking for the purpose of discussion, was truly a most extraordinary proposition, after what had taken place in that House in course of the present Session. But what was the subject of the notice ? It was a no tice of motion for the production of papers. Was the production opposed? Nu; it was intimated that there was ❑o intention to oppose it. However, the day came, " big with the fate of Cato and of Rome ;" and the Noble Lord who gave notice of the motion made his speech ; but then his troops, instead of making a movement in echellon, filed round and round him, and were glad to call in the aid of the squadrons on the cross benches. So at last they—the Ministers—were reduced to a situation in which it did not often happen to a Ministry to be placed, that of not finding any one to encounter. They had been looking out with the utmost anxiety for the sport, they ad beaten the bushes till they were tired, but not a single head of game was started—not a single point had they had ; and yet, after the speech of his Noble and Learned Friend who spoke last, it could not he said that the bushes had been unskilfully beaten.— _ . But nothing could be found—and so, after this formidable note of preparation, he was at last reduced to the com bating of a shadow, and to beating the air ; and under these circumstances it would not be expected, that, as the case stood, he should enter upon the discussion of the sub ject, as he might have done if there had been any thing like an elaborate debate. But he felt himself called upon to make a few observations. In the first place, he wished to vindicate himself and others from the imputations that had been cast upon them with reference to the dangers with which the measure was likely to be attended. At all events, he had to congratulate the friends of the measure on one re markable circumstance—he meant the change of position which had taken place on the argument on this subject, between them and their antagonists. He remembered well when there was nothing which operated as a greater difficulty on the friends of Reform, than to answer the ar• guments of those who opposed them, when these latter ob jected, that not one of the friends of Reform agreed with another as to what that Reform should be. This was the strong position taken by the opieonents of Reform. There was no uniform plan of Reform among its advocates ; but each had his own plan ; and this was the great argument of the late Mr. Canning, who knew well how to avail himself of the weak points of the case of those to whose views he was hostile ; and who, as was well known, was an unqualified, and, for the most part, a consistent adver sary of Reform. But here was a mt.asure of Reform in which the whole of the Ministry concurred, and which was supported by the whole of time country, which che rished and fostered this child of its adoption, throughout its whole extent and arrangements, without standing upon cytious and trifling objections. This was the Reform of the whole of the Ministry and of the country, and it was impossible now to assail them on the ground of discrepancy, as had been done o❑ former occasions. But what was the argument of the enemies of the measure, and in what position did they now stand ? How many of them were there who agreed in the ground of their oppo sition to this measure ? How remarkable was the change of position between the opponents and the supporters of Reform ? No two lines of arguments could ba more com pletely contrasted than those which were taken by the dif ferent persons who were leagued together in opposition to the measure. The Noble Lord who opened the debate, whatever were his own opinions and wishes on the subject, felt himself compelled to say, that he could no longer deny that some Reform was necessary. The unprecedented unanimity with which the country called for Reform, and hailed the present measure, and the loud, urgent, and irresistible, although peaceable voice, with which they called frr its adoption, proved that Reform must be granted —that a substantial Reform must be granted in order to satisfy them—not a nominal Reform, but an effective one. This was the admission of the Noble Mover, but what said the Noble Duke (Wellington ?) If ever he regretted the line of conduct pursued by a public man, whose great services to his country at the head of his country's armies and at the head of the King's Councils, be should always be ready to admire and proclaim as they deserved, it was that of the Noble Duke, when he made the declaration, at the commencement of the present Session, against all Re form. But still, even that fatal declaration was charac terised by the boldness and decision which the Noble Duke had displayed as a political leader, as well as in his military capacity. And then, when the word had once passed, the Noble Duke disdained to resort to the plea of expediency, under which those sheltered themselves whobefore fostered the cause of Anti-Reform along with him, and, thrte or four days ago, in the most open and manly manner, said that he still remained of the same opinion. This consis tency rather added to his admiration of the Noble Duke ; but then he might praise his consistency, and yet feel that he was in the wrong. The Noble Duke, however, might be consistent, but he was yoked with those who would not pull straightforward along with him ; but some would pull to one aide and some to another, and some in opposite directions. The Noble Duke might oppose all Reform, but no one could he get to add another star to the galaxy ; and one Noble Friend of his, who supported the Noble Duke, differed only by a few degrees with the Ministry, mind was ready to go nearly as far as they slid. Had he not then, completely made out his assertion that the sup porters and antagonists of Reform had completely changed places, and that the taunts which the opponents of Reform had once heaped on its advocates now recoiled on their own heads ? It was no wonder that they, advocating the af- firtnative of Reform, had differed from each other as to the mode in which, and the extent to which, Reform ought to he carried. But those who maintained the negative side were so utterly at variance with each other, that it proved, in a most remarkable degree, the singular feli city of this measure, and the great strength of the argumesat in its support. He could not avoid saying a word as to the concession made by his Noble Friend who ()petard the debate, as to the universal acceptation which this great measure had met with. No admission could he more complete thus it had secured the approbation of every class and of every sect—that it had been received with almost universal unanimity by all, and had nearly put an end to petty distinctions and shades of difference. And yet this was not the most remarkable feature in the case. They when monopoly had been trenched upon by the measure—they who had been disfranchised by it—had been among the first to come forward with honest pa triotism to abandon their own personal interests, and to sacrifice their monopoly on the altar of their country. There were some few of the least important portion of those who had enjoyed the monopoly who came forward and prayed that they might not be disfranchised, but the vast majority had joined their countrymen in calling aloud for Reform, although at the expense of their own private and personal interests. He had not failed to hear from the cross benches—where there were some very expect lawyers who would not let slip anything having the ap pearance of making in support of their case—some whis pers of this kind—" Let the dates of these petitions be known as well as their substance." He knew well what was the meaning of that. The abuses had existed these 400 years, anti the petitions were but of yesterday. But the tables of the Houses of Parliament were loaded with petitions in 1791 and in 1817, on the subject of Re form, and now petitions flocked in upon us from the whole of the country in one simultaneous flood, and abso lutely overwhelmed us with the irresistible pressure. But thus (continued the Noble and Learned Lord) it ever is with injustice—it always moves quicker than the com plaints of its effects, or the desires for redress. " Injus tice, I remember, the poet tells us— " Injustice, swift, erect, and unconfined, " Sweeps the wide earth, and tramples o'er mankind, " While prayers to heal her wrongs move slow behind.' But though prayers be slow, they are not less sure to fol low, and if injustice tramples o'er mankind, and sweeps the wide earth, and if prayer lag behind, it is as sure as that it is in the power of Heaven to grant redress, that in justice always leads to complaint —that the denial of right engenders the sense of wrong ; and were the Government even insensible to the signs of the time', and to all the other examples which it had furnished before it, it would, in my opinion, be perfect madness on its part to resist the unani mous appeal of a suffering people. I give you not counsel, nay Lords, to yield to menace or to bend to fear. I only give you that counsel which I have before addressed to the other House of Parliament,—l but give you that counsel which has been often given to you before by those Noble persons who have been most forward in promoting the suc cess of this great and healing measure of Reform. They honestly and manfully performed their duty in those times at the risk of the animadversions which it might draw down upon the m . They laughed at the ridiculous charge of yi e ldi ng t o f ear , and if they did fe tr a discontented p eo pl e , I tell you plainly, nay Lords, that I share in that fear with them. I own that I fear the discontent of an unanimous people, and that I should tremble at the thought of going on further without endea vouring to appease it, feeling as I do that they ask only for their right, and that right, if withheld, and that wrong unredressed, might rouse their slumbering strengths to day. That appears to me a reason which fairly calls upon us to yield to the just demands of the people," The Noble and Learned Lord proceeded to observe, that it was better to reform in time, and not wait till, like the measure for Catholic Emancipation, the change was forced upon us under less favourable circumstances. They were told by some that the measure was revolution ary, and by others that it would effect a great change ; and at all 'events, they said, it would effect an unprece dented alteration in the ancient Constitution of the country. He would be glad to meet them even on that last ground, which was the threshold of the Bill, and that part of it to which there really existed the most objec tion. The measure, it was said, altogether disfranchised sixty places, and partially disfranchised forty-seven others, and this was the grand objection ; for in other respects the landed interest would gain a great deal in point of influence by the measure. But still they objected to it, on account of the disfranchisement of the borough., and the unprecedented change, as they al leged, this would make in the Constitution. In arguing the question with the late Mr. Canning, he bad said, " Why, here you have got representatives in Parliament for such places as Gatton and 01,1 Satu► ! But what do you say to such places as Manchester remaining unrepresented ?" The answer of Mr. Canning was, " Although Manchester is not represented, yet Liverpool, Pomfret in Yorkshire, and other places of that kind, were directly represente 1 ; and, consequently, Manchester and places of that kind were virtually represented by Edinburgh ; and from the Tweed to John O'Groat's house, there is no popular rrpre sentition, and even the counties there are in a worse state than close boroughs ; for, as Mr. Fox once said, ' thr whole of Scotland might be represented by the bankers in Lombard -street, and the people of Scotland know nothing about it.' " The reply to that was, that the Constitution of the House of Commons must not be changed—that as the Constitution of Parliament, as consisting of the three estates, could not be altered, so the Constitution of the House of Commons must not be changed. Well, but then, he rejoined, what do you think of distranchisior boroughs where the electors have grossly misconducted themselves in the exercise of their elective franchise ? To which the answer was, that there the people had been gushy of a heinous offence, and deserved to be disfranchised. A more futile rea•on he had never heard ; for, although the people had committed an offence, why should not only they but the borough be disfranchised ? Trustees might be guilty of a gross breach of trust, and they might be justly dis missed for it ; but then the trust ought not to be, therefore, destroyed. But so it was, that he was obliged to allow that changes had been made in the Constitution of the House of Commons by the disfranchisement of the boroughs, and his argument against unprecedented change was utterly incon clusive and inconsistent. But he did not dwell on that as the strongest part of his answer, for he maintained that there never was a more monstrous proposition than to say that the disfranchisement of such places as Gatton and Old Sarum was an unprecedented change in the ancient constitution of the Houe,of Commons, for, from the ear- Best times, when places to which writs had formerly been sent fell into decay, they had been passed over, and the writs directed to other more wealthy and populous place. It was, of course, perfectly well known to every one ac quainted with the history and practice of the Constitu tion, that the King, in right of his prerogative, was en titled to issue, and in times past had issued writs to va rious places not previously represented, and had, in effect, disfranchised rotten boroughs, by not issuing writs to them. Sixty boroughs were disfranchised in one reign, and '72 enfranchised. As to the construction which had been put upon the Union with Scotland, neither could he agree that a correct representation had been given of it by his Noble Friend, who called it a Radical Reform. Up to the 18:h century, the Crown, without obtaining or asking the authority of Parliament, had more than once altered the representation of the country. His Noble Friends had been taunted with being the disciples of a great orator now no more. He would venture to say thus much, that had he lived to the present day, he would, in the present state of the country, have rather been the supporter than the opponent of Re form. If they were the disciples of that eminent indi vidual, it should be remembered that both roaster and dis ciples had themselves one common master, who was him self one of the greatest Reformers that had ever lived. Mr. Pitt was a wholesale Reformer, who spoke for it, who divided for it, and who expressed the deepest mortification and disappointment at his plans having failed—who de clared that no honest man could be a Minister except with a reformed Parliament ; and if, par hazard, an honest man were appointed to the office, he could not serve the State. The common master of the disciples mentioned proposed a measure which went at a single blow to dimi nish the House of Commons to the extent of 100 Mem bers, while they only sought to bring the number of the House to nearly what they were in the year 1801, by re ducing them to 600. The wit of man was defied to pro duce an authority fur changes of that nature. Ile could call their attention to infinitely grater changes—for ex ample, when the qualification of freeholders was raised to a sum equal to 401. of the money of the present day.— The principle of change was precisely the same, whether applied to England, to Scotland, or to Ireland ; for surelythe two latter had an equal right to their respective Parlia ments as England had to do that which she possessed, and for the purposes of precedent they served equally. Let Noble Lords, then, only look to the change effected in the representation of both these places at the period of the Unions—let them remember the measures which ushered in that union with Scotland, which deprived five parts in six of the right of sitting and voting; let them look to what was done in Ireland in the years '7B, 82, and 93, when the Catholic disabilities, as affecting voters, were repealed. He was not speaking of words, but of that which was real and substantial, and which affected the whole body of the constituency of that country—not to say one portion thereof, but the whole body, rich, poor, and middle classes. In Ireland, the measure to which he referred was, indeed, not so much a measure of Reform as of Revolution. Two hundred Members, at the Irish Union, were taken front tire representation of that coun try in one crash, without any great violence : surely that might be called a precedent to support the present mea sure, although his Noble Friend had said that it was utterly without precedent. He purposely abstained from going into dot tile, but he should briefly characterise some of the qualities by means of which the measure hail ob tained his admiration, and should receive his full support. He should tell the House why he had resolved to support the measure : first, he thought it worse than useless that any measure should be brought forward which would dis appoint the just and reasonable expectations of the people. Then, in further support of the confessedly extensive nature of the plan, he would observe that his Noble Friend had told their Lordships that he had been all along a strenuous opponent of Reform—and being so, what security had they that be would have con sented to all that was called moderate Reform—that moderate Reform, from the definition of which, all who advocated it carefully shrunk. If they (the Mini sters) had proposed to lop off sonic of the rotten boroughs, and permitted some to remain, then those who were the opponents of Reform would have said, why permit any to remain—the principle which justified the removal of one portion would fully warrant the removal of the remainder —if there was justice in a part, the whole must be equally so ?—(Cries of hear, hear, front Lord Wharticliffe.) Yes, his Noble Friend felt the force of the argument, and be thanked him for the grateful nature of the interruption— he thanked him for the force and value of the testimony which he bore to the justice and cogency of the argument. Just at that moment when he received the most agreeable interruption, he was on the point of adding, that if a measure of less extent were proposed, the opponents of all Reform would say—" Why do those things by halves— that which was good for some portion of the constituency was equally excellent for all the rest ?" The advocates of a plan of that nature—he meant a plan of moderate Re form—would have been charged with the grossest incon sistency ; or if they still adopted the principle of limited Reform in another shape, it would be said that they did just enough to save their consistency—to enable them to plead the merit of Reformers with the people,. while in reality they did nothing to satisfy their real wants. But he would venture to tell the House that the people were not such bad reasoners, or so ignorant of their rights and their power, as that species of argument presumed. The people would say to such a Ministry, " Do nothing, or do it manfully, faithfully, and successfully." How could they give any answer to that, excepting one, which would have been totally inconsistent with the public expectations ? The answer was one which could not be mentioned with a grave face. After eulogising in warm terms the disin terested and patriotic manner in which his Noble Friend had declared that he should be ashamed to retain Down ton and Knaresborough, when the sacrifice of them would become useful to the country, and the equally noble man ner in which his friend (the Eail Marshal) had declared his willingness to make similar sacrifices, he scent on to say that the second and main ground upon which he should support the Bill was, that it enabled him to get rid of what was infinitely worse than the close or nomination boroughs ; for, really, the more experience he had upon the subject, the more was he assured that the nomination of boroughs were less evils than Barnstaple, for example; but he would not enter into details; be would not mention more than one other case; he was ashamed to say that by a recent decision of a Committee of the House of Commons, the great, the enormous, the overgrown delinquency of Liverpool was made apparent, and the Member, the most innocent of all the parties, was unseated. The corruption and bribery practised there surpassed in openness and audacity all that had ever beets recorded in the annals of electioneering iniquity. They ' began by carrying on their bribery in the first instance by means of a hole in the wall of their room ; but at length they spurned even that poor subterfuge, and corruption walked forth in open day, and huckstered at the foot of the hustings, and tallies that at one period of the election sold for 101. soon rose to 1301. The system, or rather that part of the system which gave rise to that, was in disputably the worst evil of all. The outvoters and the freemen were the real delinquents, and the parties the de struction of whose privileges was the most important to the purification of the other branch of the Legislature. Yes, it was the outvoters who inoculated all the rest ; whose venom, having time to fester and ferment, did the work of corruption, to an extent and with an intensity of which no example could be afforded in any other branch of our representative system. Of the eight hundred out voters of Liverpool 530 were resident in Lancashire, and whoever could command them was assured of doing the business. Now, as he bad already stated, he supported the Bill as putting an end to that part of the system he supported it also in the full expectation that it would con ciliate and give contentment to the great miss of the people. Even in getting rid of the close boroughs, it got rid of a great anl foul mass of corruption, though not so great or so foul as in the rotten boroughs, properly so called. To show the House the manner in whi c h those boroughs were made to operate in private transae. tio n s, he would mention one circumstance peculiarly illustrative of the character of the system. A debto r was c wined : he purchased a seat for three months, for no oth , r put pose than that of escaping from his creditors. Surely if ever there was a practice that call d loudly for amendment, it was that by which, under the guise of one of the highest and mast sacred political duties which the members ofd free community had to discharge, a frau dulent debtor was enabled to cheat his creditors. The Noble and Learned Lent then entered into the detail o f another purchase and sale of a borough, in which an allow. ance was made for prompt payment—that meaning three or six months, he did not know which, and the allowance being not the vulgar sort of discount—pecuniary discount, used on the Stock Exchange, lint the true Parliamentary kind—that of one Member going out and another coining in. —(A laugh.) He did not wonderathat their Lordships should laugh, for the true source of the ludicrous was the incongruity of the ideas presented to the mind, and the more gross the incongruity, the more ludicrous did the subject appear. Now, certainly it was impossible to con ceive any incongruity more gross than that whirls esti. mated a seat in the Legislature as five per cent. upon 40,0001. It was as evident as the light of Heaven that no Legislature could go on in such a state of things, that no Legislature could proceed in such a condition, without its character being so impaired as to render it utterly powerless. Yielding to those considerations, and to others acit less we'ghty, he had determined to give the Bill his most cordiil support, and to join in saying, that thence forth those corruptions should have an end. But there yet remained to lie noticed other merits of the proposed measure, for instance, that of taking the poll in various places on the same day, to say nothing of its letting in large bodies of his Majesty's subjects hitherto unrepre sented—those industrious classes who contributed to the manufacturing and commercial greatness of the country, who supported cheerfully and efficiently the burdens of the country, and spilled their blood in its defence.—(Hear, hear.) Further, it let in the copyholders and the small leaseholders, thus establishing the independent representa tion of the counties. This alteration, he observed, hoc me particularly necess try, from the exclusion of th ace who had votes for towns, they being rendered incapable of voting out of the same property for counties. In illustration of this he referred to the case of Yorkshire, where in truth the town. constituted the most independent portion of the electors. In Yorkshire the 'Squires were opposed to him ; many of those were his very good friends, and in another county would have supported him—indeed, some of them who had supported him in 'Westmoreland bought freeholds in Yorkshire for the purpose of opposing him ; they did all they could to keep hint out, but the towns were too many for them. He went carefully through every one of the great towns, and the six smaller ones, and success en. sued upon his canvass. There was at one moment an ap prehension that something would have gone wrong in the interest of his Hon. Colleague ; and a town of such little im portance, that perhaps their Lordships had never heard of it, that insignificant little place was prepared to send no fewer than 540 electors to the aid of his Hon. Friend. That was net a state of the representation in which coun ties could be said to be fairly represented—that was not a state in which the landlords, the yeomanry, the tenantry, or the cottagers could be said to enjoy the benefits of re. presentation : it was not just, expedient, or safe that such a state of things should continue ; the great mass of the industrious people demanded representation. The spread of knowledge amongst the middle classes—the improve trent in their circumstances, which recent events had brought about—the great weight which of late years they had attained in all public concerns, and the interest which they had in the sum of affairs, rendered it neither safe, expedient, nor just to deprive them any longer of their fair share in the representative branch of the Legislature. They paid millions upon millions of taxes—they filled our armies—they shed their blood in defence of our institu tions—ond yet they were denied the exercise of the elec tive franchise. The House would bear in mind that it ass nothing but the union of the several ports of the King , dons which prevented the Crown from issuing writs to the , unrepresented places ; and all that his Majesty's Govern ment now called upon Parliament was to do safely that I which, under other circumstances, would have been done t with hazard, and irregularly. Having thus shortly laid , before the House the grounds on which the measure had his concurrence, he should not hesitate to say that as he 4 had no doubt of the ,xpediency and justness of the mea t sure, so he had as little of its ultimate success. . The Duke of WELLINGTON would not apologise for rising so late, or for not having risen before, because really nntil the speech just delivered from the Woolsack no an swer had been math,, whatever might have been attempted, to his Noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe). I have not (said his Grace) in any degree changed my opinion since I addressed your Lordships early in the Session upon the sabject of lirform. In principle, the representative sys tem of the country is so perfect, that it ought not to be changed ; in principle, yen can no more deprive a bo rough of its franchise, without proof of its delinquency, thin yon con deprive me of my seat here, or my Noble Friend of his estate in Yorkshire. Until now this House has always required proof of guilt before it proceeded to disfranchisement. I admit that there might be circum stances of necessity which would govern this strict rule, but what I contend for now, and what I have contended for all along is, that this is not a case of necessity. NO necessity has been established. The Noble Lord on the Woolsack talks of the claims of those who have shed their Wood in the service of their country. I feel for • that class too as sincerely as the Noble Lord ; but let US recollect that they are not the persons who are to re ceive the franchise.— Hear, hear.) All the Noble Lords. and all the Hon. Members who have hitherto spoken, seem to have left out of the question this consideration,— that it is a Legislative Assembly you ought to create, and not a body of voters—a House of Commons, and not a constituency. This is a point to which it becomes Mi nisters especially to look. The Noble and Learned Lord tells us that he would keep some rotten boroughs in pre ference to other,. Preference defeats the principle of the Bil', and if he adheres to his preference, he must relinquish his principle. Now as to the present House of Com mons, I maintain that it is as complete and perfect a le gislative body as can be required. I assert, that espe cially since the peace, it has shown itself the most efficient guardian of the stability of the throne, the interests of the nation, and the rights of the people. I say further, that it has done better service as a legislative body than any assembly of the same character at any former time, and for an equal period, and that this beneficial course was only interrupted by the introduction of this dis cussion. —(Hear, hear.) I have the authority of the Noble Marquis himself, the President of the Council, fur raying, that were he to appoint a House of Com mons, he could not select one better adapted to the great ends of national welfare, giving, as it ought, a due preponderance to the weight of landed property. The Noble Earl, too, at the head of his 31ajssty's Government in 1817, on the presentation of a petition upon this very subject, admitted that the House of Commons wa s alwa y s ready to assert and maintain the interests of the p eo p le. Therefore, instead of abandoning, or even q ualifying the opinion I deliv• red at the opening of the Session, I continue ) as a I d m id an s l eh w a a t a a hst of the two No;rle Lords I have ruentioned• Some to entertain it in its full force, supported in it sen timentsbdyantgheers,or remarks by the Noble Baron (Durham), and by the Lord Chancellor for Ireland, do not seem to me exactly' correct in point of fact. It is very true that the late Govern.. went brought forward the Roman Catholic Relief and it is equally true that I lost the regard anfd that sure ; but I did no more than I thought my public duty, and I was not to be misled by imaginary of many valuable friends by the int(rGodrueyct;onbuotnaottrietiai a at n an 'ed l b o y ug i l a it tim to id h a a t ‘ i • ° e t :l7ne ( , ll a e r l4lrl'slZrt. a s I e njoyed the approbation of stranding, I felt called upon to r etain the position I held in the Government as long ednocaegsa,ivniz(aHNeaarh, Noble Earl oplpoasfitteerwards had some differ my Sovereign and the confidence of the Legislature. Then came the revolution in France, followed by that of Be!. gium, and, like the former revolutions of Naples and of Spain, they naturally e xcited a strong sensation here-_a acquiesce eteo in that tiatei strong desire for Parliamentary Reform. But I did not ought all think then, any snore than I think now, that that desire was irresistible. If P a rliament should see reason to de cide that the proposed alteration in the Constitution is made, I am confident theestl y P Ze l ;in se in e ed here, I am sure that decision. —(Hear, hear.) I believe that the wish for Reform is strong and that the subject is fairly t h e y will submit without a murmur. Already the sen sation produced by the French and Belgian revolutions has subsided ; the natives of this country have seen the de plorableresults by which those commotions have been fol lowed, and are wisely w arne d by the sufferings of their neighbours. Then came the question of the Civil List. I discussed, growing and lni t honestly n do not assert that there was actually a combination of par ties on that occasion against the Government ; but I cet- lainly ccrr, p omit I-ave te Reform had to out-% ot fur this country subject repeat i choose venienc been, of because Comm( offic e a voted. his Maj first (11: sated, trenchr to the I prehem It has by the believe, done a I may 1 a train world. CIICPS ; risk of I newel reconir langua founde what t It oug to can sy sten a Con Mane ledge, law s in ale place, the ri Puy do c their deri part lean wit con rep tha star