The Sun. — London, England, 1825-05-27 00:00:00

. . nereenal . favour, if the - house, having marked its reproba- and - by the acces s i o n o f a mass of P r ot es t an t f e eli ng 'beibreuts- • of the kingdom by being the h ighest bidders , divide thenspoils non of the act, would, both f or the candid and fair manner Paralleled; but notwithstanding all it was rejected by the House amongst the twelve tribes.—(Laughter.)—Theerlilember for in which the individual avowed 'his conduct, and the deli- of Lords. He hoped in speaking of this circumstance he should the City of London had displayed a considerable knowledge of cart state of his health, remit, as far as possible, any further express himself with becoming caution. " If," said the theology upon the occasion. Be declared that the Jews of the Honourable M e mber addres s in g the Chair ; punishment. "I w ere t o . s ay that present day were the offspring : of those Jews who crucified our _ e . . '' Mr. BROUGHAM agreed in all that had been said on this the other House had placed this Houseln . a disgraceful little- Saving*, and the curse .still - hang upon the race. So was it 'abject, and only rose to a point of form. The practice of this tion, you, Sir, would probably with the toncurrence of all who argued against the late Bill—" The Catholics of this day, are House differed in cases of committals from that of the other heard me, correct the error.—(Hear, hear, heart)—lf, Sir, ' the sons of those who burnt your forefathers in Smithfield, Fuse where their Lordships imprisoned for express periods of I said that any p rocee di ng of that House was nonsense and therefore ye 'should exclude them from power in the State." — lime, s ometimes a week, sometimes two or three months. The trash, and worse from the commencement to the chise, you (Hear !)—There was as much good sense and charity in the one practice of this House on the contrary, was to commit to cuss v'culd doubtless also interpose." But the honourable Mem- as the other. One of the papers of that day notified that a mail tedy till further orders, and he wished the present not to be an her said he should not use harsh words like these in - speaking from Jerusalem had come to hand with the following .partieu es ccntion to the rule. of th e rejection of the Catholic Bill. It was sufficient for him lars:—" TWenty-fire children were publicly circumcised yester . ,I r. Secret a ry PEET, in compliance with the form just men- to say that the two Houses were at issue -upon a particular day in the Lying-in Hospital. Last night the Christians N_atu n ;zed, should merely givenotice thaton Monday.—(Criesof to. question, and that no less a question than one which - involved ralination Bill was thrown out after a stormy d e bate in the San nio:row, to-morrow) — he should move that Mr. Pilkington be the peace and tranquillity of Ireland. Weresthey then to say hedrinn"—(A laugh.)—Lord Chethant stated that this question =neit to the bar and discharged—( Hear !) - we shall adopt the opinions of the House of Lords.? Rather was not connected with religion ; but the peole out 'of - doors Mr. V. FITZGERALD concurred in all than 'haii fallen. let them say,.." we shall pursue a conciliatory, course.". The were made to believe that it was so, and the old Hi g h Church fecon his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the. Home De- precedent was not- an ordinary difference, nots - like a difference spirit was brought i n t o pl a y. S o i t was now , a id :om i t the partment on this subject, and also in thesentiments of the Right on 'th e Silk Bill ; th e quest i on was-not whetherribbands should question of Catholi c E manci pa t i on h a d no more to d o w ith ree Lion. Member for Waterford. - • be made at Manchester or Coventry.—.(A laugh)—Neither was ligion than the question relative to weights and measures, or • SIERRA LEONE. it like a dispute as to the propriety of the same. The House of the vibration ofthe pendulum. Dr. Birch said the clamour was Mr. W. BOR'fON wished merely to - say one word rela- 'Commons passed the Emancipation Bill on the grounds of its raised to influence the approaching election.,(Hear, hear !)- - tn:e. to a motion •of the Ilon. ..Meniber for Montrose (Mr. being essential to the happinem and tranquillity of the coun. Indeed it was surprising to trace the number of points in which Hume) which it w a s understood would immediately come for- try.; and the House of Lords bad, on the other hand rejected there was a resemblance between the opposition to that Bill and ward. -As the object of the returns which the Hon. Member it as opposed to the well being of. the kingdom, be cause-' the the one to which he was at present alluding.. It happened that intended to move was to obtain information relative to the co- House of Lords could not continue. to exclude six millions of in those days there was a liberal Bishop of Norwich, and when hi :.y of Sierra Leone, it would perhaps save trouble to mention their fellow-subjects from the State, unless they conceived it ne- he, went abroad, in con sequence o f hi s support to t h e J ew Bill, that su far as practicable they ehould be complied w ith, and cessary fonits stability. To come then to the point, an d grant . , lie was insulted. In passing through Ipswich, the boys called thathis Majesty's Government were about to send out a Com- sing the Catholic Claims inconsistent with the well-bei ng an d out to him to circum c i se t h em —ll aug h ter )— an d i t was g i ven mission to invest igate most of the matters to which the - returns security Of - thenountry; to ascertain that fact it was incumbent Out that one day he would con fi rm the Jewe, and the next day referred ; he should only state, that as the -notion was - for rine ton the House to seek the best information ; it was alsoincum. the Christians. Leaving this line'of argument, he would ask the formation, he trusted the question would not be discussed till bent on them to strengthen their case, and show by the best evi. opponents of the Catholics whether they did not give greater Hon. Members were in possession of facts to guide - their. deuce. and authority that they were right in the course pursued political power to the Catholics by withholding what they sought - judgment. • - b .. y the What evidence then ought they to have recour se t o ? for' then they would by grantin g it? It was a gr i evance w hi c h Mr. HUME should be sorry to stand in The way of the pro None certainly was stronger, none more entitled to weight and _gene power to the Catholics, .and to Mr. O'Connell and those posed arrangement, - and therefore would only advert to the consideration, than that of ;he:individual sent over to govern .Individuals who at present held sway over them. lie did not nature of ,he reports he wished to obtain. The Hon. Member Ireland in the most difficultand arduous times; none co u ld be .mean to take any exception to Mr. trecninell and his associates ; proceeded to state,- that his motion would embrace Returns of more valuable than that of Lord Wellesley, who had. been an the respect he bore to them w as we ll k nown ; b u t th e power - the situation and extent of Sierra Leone, the expence of main- eye-witness of the proceedings in that country, and thereforc they exercised lie wished to'see in the bands of the Law, and not • taining the Colony, and how far it had answered the expects- best qualified to talk of their civil dissentious, both .of their of indiyiduals.—(llear !)—The time was not far distant, when - . : .tions of those who planned the experiment. The number of origin and consequences. How was itthat Lard Wellesley cou ld, the discussioni which had t a k en Pl ace upon this question in Blacks in Sierra Leone—the amount of the Civil and Military express an opinion which. would have weight with the House. ParliaMent would be viewed with the most nerfect astonish- Eetabliahments; the - number of disbanded soldiers sent there of Lords, of which he was so, distinguished a Member? It May - went. It would be believed that they carried about with them -from the West India Regiments; the number of vessels be said to him (Mr. S. • Rice) have you not the : vote of Lord. on atmosphere of their own, which re nd er ed them insensible a belonging to the inhabitants of' the Colony • the rate of Wellesley, and therefore his opinion, what more can you d e no the ch anges which ti me .an d cireunist nces brought about. .' wages; the exports and imports; the facts of a case where. sire'? He would reply, that. he wanted not alone the evidence If upon this important subject,. Lora Welloley had expressed a boy was alleged to have been flogged -to death; the num- of Lord Wellesley, but of the Lord Lieutenant of *eland • an opinion, they ought to' beepet in possession' of it. The her of deaths since the year 1808; the st a te of the cli- that Nobleman had been 4 y ea rs i n th a t c o un t r y, during whic h Insurrection Act, he supposed, was now about to he resumed; and of ,that no doubt information wou ld b e g i ven th em f ast - mate; the n a vy k e pt u p on th a t coas t ; th e num b er o f ca p- residence he m us t h ave ma d e hi mse lf acqua i n t e d with every tured Negroes; returns of the revenue, and a census of the thing connected with it; he therefore called for the dispatches, enough. So that they were only t o h ear L or d W e ll es l e y' s • . population'; list of th e marr i ages , d ea th s , an d births of the as his recorded evidence of the Kings representative. He (Mr. voice when it sound e d the death-kn e ll o f I re l an d. The pro- Blacks; the amount of the sums paid to Spain and Por- Rice) might asked how do you know that these opiniOn s duction of the papers f o r w hi c h h e move d W ou ld; h e was tugaL for captured vessels-; the number of Negroes appren- have been given on the Catholic .Question ? If it were not sure, be productive of good to Ireland. It would allay the ticed ; and the money paid by this country for the support demonstrated from reason that they we're, he should at once irritation of the public mind there upon th e f a il ure o f th e of the colony ; the sums sent out to free Negroes ; also an ab- give up his motion. Sir (said the Hon. Member), it is discussed hopes of the Catholics. A majority of that House had giyen street of the supplies sent to Bernice 'and Demerara ; with se- from the school of the child to the burial place of the old man. the authority of their votes to th e question, and lie was sure verol other particulars - relating to the same subject. The Hon. Ile called that majority which sent the Bill up to the House they would further support it on the present occasion.. In nleniber in st a ting the n a t ure of th ese re t urns , obs er ved, th a t - of Lords to support him in his Motion, in or d er t h a t t h e y conclusion, the lion. Member moved fo r "Copi es or e atr ee t s his object-was to clear up the doubts at present prevailing re- might shew the public that their views of the question were of any correspondence or dispatches received from the Lord -spectingthe succeia, of the experiment of free Negro labour the correct ones. If the Gentlemen opposite should aver . that Lieutenant of Ireland, respecting the origin and nature of re in Sierra. Leone. He thought it was very judicious to have there were no dispatches of the nature of which lie sp o k e , ligious animosities in Ireland, and the best way of allaying . made the experiment, but questioned whether it had not failed, then would they consent to the Noble Marquis being examined them with a view to the tranquillization of that country." although the expellee was'not less than four millions to this viva voce before the Committee, and have his opinion procured Sir T. LETHBRIDGE said, it was not within the scope of - country. that way. They might urge that it would be irregular ; his knowledge to determine whether it was proper or not for Mr. W. HORTON could not he answerable for the nature but if ever there was a diguus vindke oodus, it was on the Governnient to consent to the production of mese papers. lie of the Returns, but as- far as possible they should be satisfactory. present occasion. All that was required was, that the Govern. did not therefore rise to oppo s e th e mo ti on , b u t t o ma k e a f ew lie acknowledged th a t d ou bt s prevailed as to the success-of the ment should agree that Lord Wellesley should be examined as observations upon what h a d f a ll en from the li on , M em b er fo r experiment, and that th e y ought to be cleared up by an inquiry. a witness, and state the result of his four years' experience in Limerick relative to himself. That non. Gentleman never was into the facts of the case. All he wished was, that the House Ireland. The state of that country was now deplorabie ; in more mistaken in his life, than when he charged him with hay would suspend its o pi n ion f or t h e p resent , an d unttl it possesed the place of hope deferred, which was in itself an evil, they ing expressed an adverse opinion upon the loyalty and gpod - the necessary information. It should, howev er , be ob s e rve d, had now declarations which not only amounted to a present faith of the Catholics in Ireland. Ile had 'the firmest comic 'that there were circumstances peculiar to Sierra Leone, which denial, but which, if carried to the extent which they. would don of the loyalty of that class of his Majesty's subjects, not . mu s t mo dif y any jud gmen t d er i ve d f rom t h em relative to the b ear , amounte d to perpetual exclus i on. li t he Catholics were . was it at a ll i ncons i s t en t w i t h suc h an op i n i o n to oppose t h e ree labour of free negroes generally. the bad subjects which they had been represented to be, the nioval of the tlisabilities under which they laboured. Theetate. Mr. BROUGHAM agreed that it was necessary to ascertain Legislature had acted unwisely in trusting them to the ex- ment which the Honourable Member had made of the cla - the facts which the Returns were directed towards, and he tent it had done. It had better, fur ite AVM sec urity, rever t moor out of doo r s w as f ar b e y on d hi s d uty .- Th e f ee li ng out therefore consented to the postponement. A s to w h a t h a d to its old principles, and. put the old Penal Laws in force of doors was stronger ,than eve r h e rem anbered it ; and he fallen from his Hon. Friend, th e Member for Montrose, he, for against them. If they did owe a divided allegiance they ought was convinced that it would a lw a y s b e f oun d excee di ng ly difE one, should sot be startled to find the ex p en s e of Sierra Leone not to be confided in at a ll. lie fear e d th a t th e feelings of cult to bring down a p ro po s i t i on o f t h e n a ture o f t h at Whi c h - very considerable indeed. But that expense could not - be disappointment which had been generated by a recent men.l had - passed that Hou se , b u t h a d n o t p asse d e l s ewh ere , w i t h out avoided ; for, by suppressing the Slave' Trade, the country sure, would have very mischievous clients. He had deep exciting the general disapprobation of the people of Engl a nd • bound itself to the support of die Negroei ceptured in the slave for ebodings and anticipations on the' Catholics learning that The lion. Member compl a i ne d th a t th e h o p es o f th e C at h o li cs vessels of other nations. It would probably, however, be soon their day of hope had disappeared. Ile wished that some- had been raised _only to be dashed. Whose fault wee that ? -reduced.; for he could mention a fact tending to that conclu- thing could be done to cairn anti soothe the irritation in It was surely nut the f au lt o f th ose w h o W ou ld h ave l e f t t h e -lion, namely,. that the kingdom of Hayti would willingly and Ireland. When he said that he did not mean to say that question as it was. With respect to the suppres.sion of the gladly : take any number of Negrontsenteto it. In consequence Catholic' disappointment must necessarily lead to Catholic i Catholic Associ a tion, th e C at h o li cs h a d su b m i tte d i is goo d subjects to what they felt was duc to the wisdom of Parlia of this regulation, 6;00 Negroes had been sent last year from disturbance. It certainly was the duty of every body_ to pre arolina in the United States, and werereceived, as all Ne. vent them ; but be could not help thinking, that the danger went- There been none of those disturbances which they had been . taugh c a gy a Learned Gentleman to expect ; and he of them did exist. Ile had been told in that. House the other gyoes.would be, with a hearty welcome in the -rapidly flourish, ing kingdom of Hayti—where peace and good order prevailed day, diet the Catholics might be safely relied on whichever way l was sure the same demeanour - would mark them upon .the pre and promised the happiest results. _ the question was carried, that their past good conduct furnish e d I sent occasion. After a few words from Sir C. FORBES the motion was a guarantee for their future tranquillity. The' lionottrable 1 Mr. GOULBURN said, be should make a feiv observations agreed to. Member for Somerset (Sir T. Lethb r id ge ) was among t h ose in reply to the H u n. M em b er f or Li mer i c k , a l t h oug h i t wax not SLAVE TRADE: who held that language, bestowing on them praises for their j his intention to follow hi m i n t h e w id e range l ie h a d ta k en. Ile M Mr. Secretary , C ens Nino laid' on the table a mass of P a pers loyalty, under their sufferings, while at the s a me-ti me h e oiled did not blame the Ha n . eniber for taking this opp or t un ity f or containing the Correspondence of hi s M a j es ty' s Government that they were not trust-worthy ; but the Catholics re j ec t e d : i s stating those sentinians upon th e su bj ect o f. C at h o li c E rn:me i n !Ailstetli with Foreign . Powers. relative to the Slave Pelndation of our Praisesethey did not want them, in the same way that they patios which he had pot found an opportunity' of doing' possessions in South America and the West Indies. - rejected the praises of the Minister in the year WV, when the e Catholic B e li e f fill was before the House. As he LONDON COLLEGE. Mr. BROUGHAM ro se tomove for, leave to bring in a. Bill for incorporating the above College. The object of it was to afford instruction in,lbe higher-hranches,of bcicnce and Lite rature at a less expence than it could be obtained at Oxford and Cambridge. It was not intended, however, by the pro moters of the plan to cast the slightest imputation or disre. spect upon the fair fame, the 'conduct, or the principles of those venerable seats of learning just mentioned on the con trary, many of its supporters were distinguished Members of the two Universities. The Hon, Member concluded by 1110/1 , - • ing for leave ta -bring-in .a Bill to Incorporate certain Persons as Fotme.ets of a College -to be erected in or near the City .of • . Lendon. . • Mr. Secretary PEEL observed, as it wes understood that so discueeion.would take place on the present stage of the pro ceeding he should not oppose bringing in the Bill. Admitting, however, that the object was in nowise disrespectful to the Universities of Oiford and Cambridge, there might be consi • deeations of policy which would be opposed to the project, and »o therefore only wished it to be understood, that by assenting for elie-present, he did not pledge himself to the principle of the measure. - After a few words from Mr. Baouciteee and Mr. PEEL, in mutual explanation, leave was given to bring in the Bill. STATE OF IRELAND. Mr. S. RICE, in bringing forward the motion, of which he had given notice, should avoid as much as possible every topic calculated to add- to the irritation and disappointment excited in Ireland by the recent rejection of a measure which passed that House.. If he at all departed front such a course be ad.: vertinie to the proceedings of the present Session, it was be cause a reference to those proceedings formed the Parliamen tary ground of his motion. He trusted he should be able to show that - it would not only he proper and wise, but necessary for the House to take the step which he was about to propose. At the commencement of the Session, the state of Ireland was the chief object which attracted attention both within and without the doors of Parliament. It had come recommended from the Throne,.and enquiries were undertaken in the condi tion of that country by both branches of the Legislature. But now after having been •so long occupied with the subject, and when the Session approached towards its close, he would ask Hon. Members to refer to their Votes and the Statute Book, and say what had been done for Ireland? He would ask them as Legislators, what had been done to remedy .the cause of evil in that country ? One Act, indeed, had been passed —that to put down the Catholic Association, but it was the only one of importance to Ireland. The House found the whole population of Ireland united as one man in support of that Association; they proceeded to legislate against it, and it was now utterly extinguished. He for one never denied that there was danger connected with that Association ; but he de precated the course taken by the House to put it down. He would have removed the cause of- the disease—not have at tacked one of ite symptoms. But although Parliament was-so brought into collision with the whole body of the Catholics, from Lord Fingal to the poorest peasant that subscribed his penny of rent, what was the conduct of th e C a th o li cs ? They implicitly% obeyed 'the Legislature, and in the most enlarged sense ceased to 'deliberate; they acted as if the Statute had been a remedial, not a Penal Law, and conformed themselves to its spirit as wet! as its letter. If not, however; from other cir cumstances, he would only _have obeyed the law and done all which it did not eiciireselly prohibit. 'Why then did they act thus? Because they were fulrof hope.—( Hear !)--They knew that in quities were On'foot inlet would elicit the whole truth relative to their situation, and the Y -tendered themselves willing witnes ses to state their grievanees at the Bar 'of Parliament. • They thought more unnecessail, end relied on the justice of Perlia meat for redress. f Not' an individual amongst' them who was not most anxious td be' exereined; end they have been ex wined, not by friendi onlyq, , but by those who searched into aft 'the etuppdsed secrets of the 'witnesses. Thus they had Mr. O'Connell to explain'the political, and Dr. Doyle to explain Abe religious creed -of the Catholics of Ireland. After that thieflouee convlneetT the Catholics' that their .cause was gain ing-ground ; theY;,filt -too, it 'was gaining ground among the •JrutheProtestiinfie and- airiongit - the liberal end enlightened classes of the Peoplieief Yin/eland—Wear !)—The Catholic Bill -was carried even up 'to a 'second' reading in the other House with increasing suceeA. Cathoffeexpectation was thtis kept alive=-every individual of 'that - BOdy felt a reasonable hope— we-and they +fere hoPe,which was, not diminished by the:tone of thialletose—ley the - mild and conciliatory tone of thoketappdnentsAreioss oFwliiisetalents and temper they had to eteplorce-e(Hear l)-LBut what was their fate elsewhere. Their Bill was for' the second' time sent up to the Lord Chancellor of England-:-it came recommended by the assent of this House, Akricultural Society was formed. During the season or agri cultural distress, the landed interests formed themselves into nn association, of which he believed. the Hon. Member for Somerset,' and air. Webb Hall, were the O'Connell, and the O'Crorman—(Latighter)—and when the - late Lord London derry took occasion to . praise them for their patience and fin bearanee, the Hon. Member for Somerset repelled with in di nation his praises; so the Catholics might now say to the Honourable Member for Somerset, " On Thursday last you called me Dog, and spit upon my Garbarhine, and for these things I: take your courtesies."—(Cheers.)—lle Would impress on the. Catholics principles from which they ought not to swerve—the first was, strictly to observe order and decorum, from one end of Ireland to The other, from Giants' Causeway to Cape Clear the second, was in their measures to take. every possible step to preserve their Protestant t7ni o n. The I tide was already n their faVelir, and he should allow, them to embark on that stream, which will lead on to ultimate.success. Ireland would soon be unanimous on the subject of Catholic EMancipation, and then it would-no longer be - in the power of either House of Parliament to refnse it. Let . the Govern-: ment look at the votes of-the Irish Members on a question peculiarly affecting the security of their country, 'a country which contained all that was dear to them, and which made the Irish Alembers the best judges of what was fitting for its wel fare.- The votes of the Irish Representatives were as two to one in favour of the question ; and in the Peerage of Ireland there was an equal majority,:the proportion was the same— that being the ca s e, the continuing the Catholic disabilities proved that the union was a . source Of mischief to Ire land. Th e connect i on w i t h England was Injurious to it.— He repeated what he had already said, that the public mind, upon this subject, was gradually. advancing in this country.— The House ought not to deceive itself by paying attention to those petitions which had been presented to Parliament contain ing different sentiments, nor by any of those base arts which had been resorted to forahe purpose of misleading the public mind-( Hear !)—The same hand wide], chalked upon the walls " No Popery," had also put there " No King," and _" Hunt for Ever." A publication had issued from the Press under the sanction of an obscure bookseller of the name of Benbow—a man who had formerly been indicted for sedition.- - . The purport of this work • was, to put forth a speech pretended to have been delivered by ad illustrious person in another place; and to this speech was subjoined a statement of a most inflammatory nature. This, if sent over to Ireland, would be certainly productive of the most dangerous effects in the minds of the people of that country. Yet he knew a person of high station in this country—one of the Peers, had sent over a vast, number - for distribution. No one, he was . sure, would be less pleased than the illustrious individual said to have delivered. the speech, with this mode of acquiring his favour.— .For his own part he fireatly mistrusted the clamour raised out of doors upon subjects of this kind. In the year 1720, the Governthent of this country were in great alarm on the sub ject of the plague then raging at Marseilles; and a remedial measure was introduced in the same way as a remedial rnea sure had been brought forward on the present occasion with reference to the Catholics. The abject of this measure, brought in the 7th year of George the First, Lord Hardwicke observed, was to prevent the spreading of_the plague, and there was considerable apprehension in the minds of all classes on the subject. Yet were means found to raise a clamouramongst the igno"rant, and cries o f " N o B arrac k H osp i ta l —no re d coat nurses, wero heard against it in the streets. The Bill, in con. Sequence of this interference ofthe populace, was actually lost: But a more signal illustration of the truth. which he wished to enforce was to be found in the clamour raised against the Jew Bill. The arguments against this Bill were particularly worthy of the attention of those Gentlemen who had opposed the late Catholic Relief Bill ; and he premised them they would find that all the arguments used by them had nothing new to recom mend them. A petition from the city of L o nd on wa s pre sented against this Jew Bill, declaring that if the Bill passed into a law dishonour would be brought upon Christianity, it would endanger our happy Constitution in .Church and State, and injure the trade of the country. As to the latter danger apprehended to the trade of the country, he believed the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time. being would Have found no inconvenience for the admission of the Jews. One of the popular addresses of that day ended thus ; "Awake, therefore, my brother Christians and Protestants—it is not Hannibal at your gates, but the Jews corning to take, the keys of your Church"—(Laughter.) -~Tits was the state of the Public mind out of doors. In Parliament similar arguments were used. In 1753; a West Country Gentleman, Sir It. ; Idigham, represented th a t thi s Bill wou ld a d m it t h e J ews, to ' vote for Members of Parliament; that they would soon have seats in the House, and posSessing themselves of all the estates Gonlborn), however, *as not in the same situation with the Hon. Member in that respect, it would be unpardonable in him to waste the time of the House by re-stating the arguments , be had already urged against the granting further concessions, or at least the concessions, sought for to the e CatholicS. The lion. Member bad ar gt i e d the Catholic Question es, a question purely Irish, and affeetingeone portion of the empire only. He (.11% (G.) had alwayS argued it upon dill rent principles, as in volving a great Constitutional question, and even the eeistence of the Constitution itself, as it had been for the last two hundred years. The lion. Member hat justly observed, that where religion seas concerned it was easy to find yneaus to'eXcite. the people. Be hegged 'to add, that if the feelings were more easily excited iu religious Matters, they were stronger and more permanent. lie did the people of England the justice to believe that it was with pain.they refused to grant the claims' of the Catholics. Ile believed their only ground was, that upon w hi c h h e proceeded, viz: that it ; was not safe to grant them.- 119th respect to the Hon.. Gentleman's reference - to the Jew Bill, he must say that he never knew a long debate upon any subject from which it wits not possible to take . passage& to which an answer might be framed, or whiehniight be made the subject of laughter. It was not,. therefore, fair to.say that the opponents of the Catholia had fallen into the same course of opposition as the oppinents of the .Jew Bill had done.— The Jew Bill was not the only . occasion upon which the feel ings of the peopl e h a d ca ll e d upon the Legislature to repeal any Act. In 170 econcession s were made to the Catholics (Hear, hear !)—lle admitted that they were improperly Under stood, but they had led tO the most serious disturbances. If - this had been the etreet upon that occasion, what mig7it they not expect when real danger threatened the Church Establish ment as would be the case were the ttoncessions Dove sought to be granted. - • But he would not allow himself to be led away from the only question before the House. The Hon. Member said, he etpeeted certain advaittages'from the production of the papers rot-which he moved, and upon this expectation he found ed his motion. The Hon. Member was of opinion that the pro duction of the dispatches of Lord Wellesley tenon the subject of religious animosities in Ireland would have the effect of . .soothe ing the irritat e d f ee lin gs w hi c h h ad be e n excited by the coorse pursued by Parliament. 'Now in his opinion the effect would necessarily be the reverse, for it would tend to keep alive the irritation. The Hon. Member, he thought, had unfairly de-' scribed the motive for laying before thellouse fiirmer dispatches from Ireland. Another ground upon which the Hon. Member had asked for these dispatches was, as g substitute for the ex.a mination of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. If the Honour able Member thought such an examination necessary or proper, he had better come foileard with a motion to that effect. lie certainly should like to hear the argument; upon which the Hon. Member would justify a motion for the examination before one of the parliamentary CoMmitteea, of a ckuirilcter like the Lord Lieutenant of Irelao, high in. the confidence of Govern .mente In his opinion' the HOnOurable Member had laid no grounds at all fin his motion. 'He viewed it rather as a means of delivering opinion3•which he had not before been able to de liver. lie was convinced that the production of the papers moved for, would tend to produce those very evils which the Hon. Gentleman sought to avoid. He should therefore oppose the motion. Sir J. NEWPORT did not think they ought so lightly to dispose of the peace, security, and rights of six millions of their . ' fellow subjects. The Marquis Wellesley was a man of great ta lents, who had accepted the Government of Ireland at a time of great difficulty. With the aid of the Catholic Association he had been able to tranquillize that country, and it was of the utmost importance that Parliament should know what were his opt-. :lions respecting the exact state of Ireland. Inquiry was the great object of all parties, and no person could throw so much light upon the subject as 'the Marquis Wellesley. The Bight Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Goalburn) wished to leave things as they were, but that was impossible: Some means must be devised to allay the feverish agitation that existed. Some measure must be adopted to give security to Ireland. Some measure must be contrived to put an end to the unseemly triumphs of the P ro t estant Ch urc h . That Church, it seemed, had set its bells 'ringing, as if it were rejoicing for another vic tary of Waterloo. This would do more to pull down the Church of England, than all the efforts of its own worst enemies. The people of England as well as of Ireland had a right to complain of the manner in which the question regarding the Catholics had been managed in Parliament. If the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government was really of opinion that no pro. vision ought to be made for the Roman Catholic Clergy, he ought not to have put the questions he did to the Catholic Prelates who were examined before the Lords' Cominittee. It was trepanningethem into answers which might do them injury with their frocks. It was neither fair, ingenious, nor' honour able. lie had also to complain of the - disingenuous artifice teeisrleil to by some Right Reverend persons, who had taken np . flaam obscurity an offensive speech (that of Dr. Drumg ri oole) and described its contents a s th ose of the whole Catholic body, Now that speechhad - been.publicly and formally reprobated by the Catholics the next day after it was delivered. When -the Protestants talked of Catholic impostures and misrepresenta tion they should first look well to theMselves and see whether their assertions were. correct. On this subject he could no avoid feeling warmly, the he felt that upon it depended the security and existence of the British Empire. The peace of the country ought not to beputto hazard by the_perverse folly of those to Whose care its - destinies had been committed. The eyes of the Con tinent were upon us, and watchful to take every possible ativan tagefrom our condition. ‘Trliatever tended to. sever the Empire they would be sure to seize upon. It would be ringing the death bell of our safety to cause the disjunction of airy large portion from the general ()tidy of the empire: . -. It was In vain to expect that Ireland would rewiain tranquil after the recent events. - He knew that country well, and be feared lest the scenes of' 1798 should be ren ewe d w i t h i ncreased peril. He wished to know the opinion of the Noble Lord at the head, of the Irish Govern-- Ment, - who' was better iiiialified than Any other man in Ireland, to state the actual condition of that country. Ile was. certainly much better authority than the Hight.' lion. Secretary (Mr. (,oulburn), because he was an older and more experienced per. • son. Allusions had been made to the conduct of the Catholics in .1780 ini‘lB97. lie knew very well the deception' which had been used in those years, and the object of die deceivers. He was desirous of preventing theieeurrence of similar scenes, and therefore it was that he asked for the dispatches mentioned in the motion of his Hon. Friend. Air,, CURTI ES . rose amidst cries of question.-He was anxious, lie said, to' explain why he voted as he did on this . question. The general opinion in the county lie represented was against the-Catholics. lie had bud a great many petitions to present against the measure, and not one for it ; and it would have been treason in hint ag ainst his constituents had he voted for the measure of Catholimancipation. Mr. BROWNLOW began by referring to the speech of the Hon. Baronet (Sir. T. ,Lethbridge), who had dwelt upon 'the dilemma into - wideli some Gentlemen, himself amongst otherS; were thrown by the present Motion. He would tell' that Hon: Baronet, that he for one Meantto extricate himself' from such dilemma in the simplest poSSible way, and that was by voting for the motion. He was desirous of obtaining the largeSt quantity of information respecting Ireland. During the last two Sessions, Committees of .'Enquiry had. been. sitting, 'before which individuals of every rank, station, creed, and condition, lied been examined, and was it consistent or - proper to reject the very best conceivable testimony on the subject, that of the 'Lord Lieutenant a-( Hear !)—That Noble Lord-, from educe- . tion and affection, was devoted tcr the cause of Ireland, and it was of the utmost moment to know his opinion,- and thegrounds of his opinion. Theßight Honourable Secretary (Mr. Gottl... burn) bad told them that his opinion was to he gathered from the vote he had recently given by his proxy. .This • was to a certain extent true ; but it should be recollected that Irish Lords were in the • habit of occasionally speaking . one way and voting another, —(Hear, hear, hear!)—lt was not impossible that the Lord Lieutenant bad voted one way and written another; and lie was theretbre anxious to judge with his own 'eyes of that Noble Lord's sentiments respecting Ire land. his correspondence with .this country would be the best 'mirror to reflect his thoughts. Let that mirror be exposed to the view of the - House. lie understood that such correspond ence was maintained with the Right lion. Secretary for the slime Department. • Now that Right Hon. Seiretary, instead of agreeing in opinion with tho . Matilda Wellesley, - concurred with-the prime Minister, that Catholic Emanaipation was not a just and politic measure, that it ought not now, nor never, to be conceded to Ireland. He had heard thiS opinion with the deepest and unfeigned regret.--(Some Member exclaimed, " It was your own.")—" True," continued the' Honourable. Gen tleman, "it was my own. It was my own opi n i on so l ong a s I could ' conscientiously entertain it, and no longer.—(-leer !)--L. It was my own opinion so long as I could find any tenable and debateable ground to rest Upon ; but now when there is no such ground, when there is no argnmentL-not even the pretext of argument to allege in justification of the continued denial of the Catholic . Cleinis, I renounce it for ever.—(Hear did support such denial. but I have since:discovered the naked ness of the land,' and in deference to reason; to argument, and to fact, abandon my former- sentiments,' and adopt those Which favour the EMancipation of . the Catholice.--(llear !) Thereforea is that I feel 'a deep regret at the. opinion which has been expressed by the Right Honourable Gentleman . and the Noble Lord at. the head of the Government, that the Ca tholic 'Claims are never to be conceded." Nothing would be more un wise in policy than .such a proclamation. No matter what • circunistances might occurs-no-. matter how clear the justice of their claims—no matter hoer universal the demand yet the Catholics and the Constitntion were to . be for ever aliens to cads other.—(Hear!)—He - regretted- to hear such 'a declaration. It would convert Ireland into - one great scene of misery, snaking it resemble that described-by the Poet: "No light, but rather darkness -visible, . • - . • • • Serving . only to discover eights of woe, . ' Regions of sorrow, doleful shades, whore peace - • And rest can never dwell, hope nevercomes,• That comes to all, but torture without ' _• The opinions of these eminent persons might be sincere,.'be atede sure They but they . were not - :therefore . -the lesi Contra- !. dictory, inconsistent, unintelligible' arid r e m ote from anYtini , l form systern of - policy towards Irefand. They were a part ofj the unjustifiable liberty with which some Statesmen thought they had a right to treat a great nationeand in accordance with which they had made a toy and a play-thing of Ireland. It had been said that if Emancipation were conceded, it niighttend to separate the two countries. If lie thought so, - he would be against it. But were there no'.other causes of diSimion ?' When the great majority of the Irish people were. Catholice- , s.when .75 of the Irish M embers , had voted for their emancipation—when the sense of thstt country was not to be mistaken, and .yet that sense so expressed was utterly negleete(L--when the voice of their Representatives was regarded as nought; and the Nobility anti Gentry of Ireland were treated with ecorns-=when the people, after being promised the legitimate enjoyment of the Constitution, were thrown back in diepair when all these things. were consi.lered, he would ask,' whether More calms of disunion were not to be . found in the rejection of the Catholic Claims, than could be feared from their concession ?—( Hear !)- - - , -Butthe Catholic Question would ultimately' be carried. In 'point Of . argument it had already been c a rried. • In the mean time,' however; much that pressed for instant adoption would be - de-• hayed with great peril to' the country. • riftich that was. refused might be immediately granted with great advantage. Deep' and fearful tracee• had been left in the feelings -of the Mils by the harsh policy of this country ; and. times.; traces could not be efFaced but by Catholic Emancipation. - He had not intended to have said so much, but he.could not remain .silent on such a subject. The I iononrable•Aleniher conellided by expressing his thanks to his lionoitrable Friend foe the able, temperate, and convincing manner in which he had brought forward the motion, to which he gave his most cordial support.--L(Hear Mr. Secretary.PEEL said, that there was one part of the speech of his- Hon. Friend (Mr. Rice), in which he willingly agreed, and that was where he censured the introduction of any topic likely to exasperate and aggravate the feelings of those who' were 'suffering from the recent deciSiOn of ParL liament. Nothing should provoke hills to transgress thaf vice, but if .any could so influence Wine.- it would hee the speech of the lion. - Member for Armagh (Mr. Biowntow). He was called on to apologise to that Hon. Alember for perse vering in the course of conduct which lie had pursued through out the whole of .his public life .)_Yet, strang e enough, theyliad elasely agreed in opinion until within the last six weeks.—(Hear, hear !)—lt was curious indeed that the , Honourable Gentleman should stand up in the House and call him to account for his opinions respecting-Ireland, .The Hon. Member who resided. in irelantlL-- , .v1i0 was the representative of a large county, had entertained during the whole of his Par liamentary career certain.. opinions, a nd now within a few weeks lie found cause to change diotte opinions and to de clare them untenable.. He gave that Hon.. Merabercredit 'for his sincerity—(hear !)—and he did. not call him to: account for having changed - his opinions.-4llear !)--.lle begged the Hon. Member to recollect, that as he found. his former sentiments erroneous, he might not be infallible now.—(Hear !)—lt was not too much to claim merit to himself for Change,- and to allow none to others for constancy of opinion. About sik weeks ago the lion. Member presented a petition from certain Orangemen Complaining of certain calumnies, and expressed a determina tion to press the, matter to an enquiry. He (Mr. Peel) be sought the Hon. Gentleman to forego his intentions, and not to provoke any unnecessary discitssibn. He addiesse d him as the chosen advocate of the Orange Party in that . House, .and it was certainly too much' fin the Hon. Member to turn round and accuse him (Mr. Peel) of a' want of uniformity and -of a contradictory system. Wrong in' his opinions he might be; but surely they, were uniform and consistent. Of all persons the lion. Gentleman was the last who ought to bring the charge.s— With regard to the questi on b e fo re the House , lie approached it with other feelings than th os e o f triumph, He had never. ope posed the Catholic Claims out 'of ill will to the Catholics, but only from a sense oiduty., lie Was readyto resign his office, if necessary ; but he could not forego his right to express liiiopi nions. There was no r eason why he should not retain his office, e o , u a l tnic co nced e o : safetya t Question. htiu g o h fe the Stat e , differed ta7 from lnoc s em o d m eo ree.of wha tev er i c t w colleagues 1 1I r e 6a a gs gatrides consistentt o o n th t l e i e Catholi c adminis tration mithintsm tration of the laws in Ireland, he thought it Might be ininroved, and would not refuSe his consent to any practicable measure. He objected to the referen ce s ma d e to " another place," and condemned the censures cast by the Him.. Baronet New W - on the questions put by the Prime Minister. That lNoble Lord had no controul over the conduct of the Committee. The, motion before the House was very general' and indefinite. -If related to documents w supposed to exist," but no proof- of their existence had been given, and no Parliamentary grounds for their production had been advanced. He should oppose the motion upon general, and not on personal grounds. He ' pledged his honour as a Gentleman, that his oppositioh was • not founded on pe rsona l cons id erat i ons. His lion. Friend said there were strong presumptions for believing that such papers existed, and if so, why had they not been earlier called for., During the former discussitins, a notice had been given, but never acted on, and never renewed. And for what pur pose were they c a ll e d for now ?-to convert the House of Lords. But the Hon. Gentleman went still further, and said, that if there wre no such documents, the Lord Lieutenant ought to be censured; and on these grounds, and for these objects, the Hon. Gentleman moved for-papers " supposed to exist,"-- The motion was unlimited in point of time, and as it referred to allpapers concerning religious animosities in Ireland, it might include those touching the different'Catholieand Orange Also-- ciations which had been recently put doWn,-he hoped - for ever.. No good could result from the production of such documents; The embers of expiring animosities ought not to be (Hear, hear !)—There were other reasons for withholding the papers. It would he a trench of confidence towards the Noble. Lord himself. Ile might not wish, nor would it be politic, to have his reasons and opinions respecting certain measures made public. It was not necessary to conceal tire . opinion of the'; Marquis Wellesley relative the Catholic Question. That opi nion as expressed i n a ll hi s correspon d ence , bore out to the •• tidiest extent the vote he had recently given by proxy... -(Heart) —lt would be most inconsistent with Parliamentary phic.: tire, and, most unfair to the Marquis Wellesley, to Produce' the documents on the grounds assigned by the Honourable; over. (Hear !) • Mr. littowwLow explained. • • • - • Lord- J. RUSSELL defended the conduct of the Honourable“. Member for Armagh from the censures of the Right Honour able Secretary- He himself (Lord J. It ussellYwas strongly 'in favour of Emancipation, and has supported the other .two• . measures because he was told th e y wou ld ass i st in carrying it. As he did not support them on their own merits, he should not consider hi ms elf b oun d t o support them. againOf • • they should ever be again brought forward. He gave.the Right ; . Hay. Secretary credit for the conkistency and' integrit; of his „ opposition to the Catholic Claims, hough lie did not think there. - was any enlarged wisdom in that opposition. The conduct, of Government, however, was neither consistent nor uniform. would be better that Government should always oppose Ernan cipation than keep Ireland- vacillating between hope and fear. There was no reason why Emancipation should not be granted now. The peril of refusal was great, the advantage of conces sion equally great. The condition of Ireland would paralyze our energies in case of war. It was the business and.duty of„ 51inisters to advise the King of the consequences of their mea sures. Until Emancipation was granted Ireland would never be tran9uil. Sir 'lll. MAXWELL (we believe)'supported the motion. Colonel BAGWELL thoughtzhat the Prime Minister of the country, when he dismissed the Catholic question in the way he had done very recently, ought to have provided sonic On of remedy for the case, after rejecting that of emancipation. Some Noble Lords ; indeed, anticipated the effects that might follow from such a proceeding, and proposed one kind of remedy ; an- other gallant and Noble Lord-. had proposed unother=noy thing like leather !—(Laughter.)—The Hon. Gentleman sup ported the motion. Lord FRANCIS L. GOWERbad only once presented him. 'self to the notice of the House : he hoped to be permitted cts say a few words on the present occasion. Ile felt extreme re- Juctance at opposing the motion of the Hon. Member fOr Li merick. The course he should feel• it his duty to pursue in' Parliament was now, and would, unquestionably, hereafter be,• directed to the one sole object of Catholic Emancipation: If he thought the vote he was about this night to give would . at. all prejudice the interests of that great.question, (to which he from henceforward would devote every energy he possessed),. he should feel no hesitation in adopting a different course of pro_ ceeding. The opinions he hid formerly entertained on the Ca... tholic question had been a good deal guided, perhaps, by per. sonal considerations and feelings of a powerful nature; but all 'such were no* merged in the consideration of the great prin ciples upon which his vote would be given in favour of that ma. mentous question. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declared, that if he thought the production of these papers would lead to the attainment of the object which his Hon. Friend had •in 'lrieW, .he would not oppose the motion. That Hon. Gentleman seem ed to flatter himself that the production of such papers would. have an effect in allaying the irritation of Ireland in regard to the decision, as he said, of another house upon the Catholic' question.-( Hear !) -But he ( the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not see how the effect was to be produced, even if these pa= -pers should appear to contain the very heists which the Hon. . (lent. anticipated. As his-Right lion. Friend (Mr; Peel) had already observed, it was quite improbable dint theresbould not be mixed up in the correspondence referred to, details of variant . kinds : connected , with the condition of that unfortunate country • (for so he must call het) II ems, hear !)-which being publish . ed, would unavoidably work to produce effects and sensations the very opposite-to those which thel-lon. Member for Limerick .contemplated. On that ground alone -he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) sheath' think it 'entirely inexpedient 'to comply with the motion.. But the very. line of argument which had ' been taken on this occasion by his Hole Friend was much more. likely to conciliate and assuage the angry feelings. which depricated, than ~any papers would be that his motion could in-. :elude.--(Hear, hear!)-He was anxious to do-justice to his Hon. Friend /or the tone and-manner with whieh e at a moment of peculiarly angry feeling, he had recently opened tills discussion.. -(,Bear; hear 1)-With respect to the last occasion upon which - the Bill that had been so much. adverted to was before xi* .House,. be (the Cbancellor of the Exchequer) in common with. amity others did not feel called upon to speak particularly,- as he could only have weakened the admirable effect which had been proditeed by the eloquent speeches of the most' ble of ifs' advocatea. But he had expressed his opinions on the subject, he trusted pretty clearly, both,by his speeches and his votes in former stag es of that Bill , and on the two oth e r p r op os iti on s that had been lverted to. Those votes he had given, but certainly not without great reluctance, hesitation,' and difficulty. The .Noble Lord (J. Russell) who had attacked (hitt not in a manner or a tone, undoubtedly, that could be at all excepted to) the, consistency and conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, had done them the justice to say . that-he impitted..to them no want or integrity; but atill the : Noble Lord observed - he could not understand 'how they' conld"reeoncite it to their own consciences to be still in office.--(Hear, hear!)-le • the ' course of - the 'last session; - }se - (the Chancellor of - the Ekc4:. quer) had taken an opportunity to•show; and he -flattered him: . self that he had succeeded in showing, why the Ciovernirient considered that it was not inconsistent either with their duty or their honour, for Ministers,. upon-questions wherein theysiere' agreed, to act cordially and unreservedly With those who c tifferpl from them.-(Hear!)-He could hardly, as a Minister,' eiipt i eq to be believed in the full extent to which he was about to Speak; perhaps-(Hear, hear !)- but lie would only say now,' that if:- . tie thought he could forward. that great question of Cathai& emancipation by going out of office, he would resign to.moe, row.-(Loud cheers.)-sHe could hardly expect, he repeated, to be believed. in this assertion, sincere as , it was, without some allowance ; but he made it to relieve his own con science. At the same tithe 'he . would readily acknowledge that lie could not see how 'Ministers could be called upon .to.:. do so-to retire from the Government at a time when the country. was generally satisfied 'with. them-(Hear, 'hear and when he did not know how a Government, if 'the pre sent one were now broken, could be formed again, on accoulit of their not being unanimous on this telestion ; but he trepre. cated the impression which it might suit the purposes of some persons to diffuse , _ but which he scarcely s u ppo se d h e s h ou ld discover to be really entertained by his Hon. Friend--that the question of Catholic 'Emancipation was so lifeless •fts it was. made out to be.-(Cheers.)-lie himself waa struck with this. remarkable circumstance, that of the Irish Members of Pashas. • nient, who Were formerly the most violent against it, a large number was added, btu • very lately, to the supporters of this. ' Measure.' Other authorities in the state had also shown them:, selves very favourable to it; and it was 'still proceeding advan-t ' tageously. -So much of 'the debate of this night-had been' oil ' extraneous matters, and lhe question ittielf.e-the-question. ore : this motion-was really confined within so narrow a conipass, as he had • endeavoured' to show,' follotving the steps of his. Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Peel),. 'thathe thought it uns. necessary to trouble the House with any furtherobservations. at present, and should therefore content himself with opposinK ' the-motion.' - . Lord GRAVES considered it his duty .te. vindicate the•con.. duct of a Gallant Officer. who had been alluded toas-read to draw his 'sword against the p eop l e o f I reland: The Gallant- Oilier-had never expressed a ...visit to draw his sword. That - Nobleand Gallant Officer had'expressed an opinion that the ' Roman Catholics should not be - admitted to seats •in the House of Lords or Commons. The expression , to which allusion had been made was uttered in a technical sense.- '['he Noble and Gallant Officer had fought for Ireland, ins.ead' - dralving his sword against -her, Ile had subscribed largely•tnivardi the relief of the-country.' 'Unless Parliament , gwve-the Reinan Catholic Priests the tithe of the country-, whiehi'th&y considered their property, they would never be satisfied, or as attached peoPIC- Mr. BROUGHAM said he should be unfashionable, and eon. fine himself to the question. He had heard 'variouS•argurnents for not producing the papers. In the first place they were told there -was' no to' the document required, and- that they were all-af• sea. - It was easy to remedy than defect' by • adding the last - twenty four months, •or any other time - within ' which the communications- might have been made. .All the' other objections might have been spared. b-y the.. assertion that no papers had been received ; b u t th a t was no t so . A s to , Lord Wellesley's Opittio4; he wished to see it. • The doll vote