The Sun. — London, England, 1831-08-12 00:00:00

Liat NUCIi lucre 4 , ponemaltswe r . B r e ady deferred in an )they mg were rene'v e ' l 1g of the Within the Duty' 'enient t 3 deb itg ' defer his motion )8, and the I+o eminent to I' o° nth a course; b Le fined whether 7 , ieir lotion to this _.ord would i this point. ~ a forwr hi: lion. Frk ° , Friend had 1 0 4 week, he ( 1 -' 1 :!, morrow move o' lotiee. of the g (4 : epened the 90 ' f such urgent 5e liseussed this very )-tnorrow to P re ' the papers he re i l it he would at , use a part of th e !ferret' it with tr n the mettowb . ° te, at what ti ros f the 2,1 Aug o° Tolland. a 7 (lms:A to tbt into ow hands c e le 314;i:ter, Wh e eat' it at the coo at which we Were crtainly ought t ° rebend that he t, and not to t his applitm, he better able t ' l II inform me vibst he ordinary chat' r, written by the to the Ambas' r patch of the In.ady ity—the Tinto a observation uPtivi, planation in o r rd to the letter '' August. W . l-3 read to • iv , =cut and 10 .he Alinisters o f ,' Yllether on bsc to say. a matter of g r de Lord woule o iten read to °' never wool; Noble Lot LI; $ l, that under the r 4l inexpedient sue 'demi (Lord St e , and if satisf", he would e it i b' ia Noble Fiiet (pinion the 011 ' 1 4 there lore bri'b vbetlier Mioistel troops into 10 0 0 here was regon had receive d t . )n, during W l ' l e , the bake Of Pb' ration on the s'' b ;l tat, in conseque°ol Assizes, it was 1/ ed hereafter. did not ascertt!ol for Foreign Af* l ,l !re actually in a l of Mons ? t the House 11 nterrogation. r m, when tbeY t eessary to id'' r , ent ; but sur el y' nbers of the v Members of rposes of a r ie ‘i would not des [ear.) ut the quefti° P xiitiou on the in of their fore ed to the UDP site meant t° given an a l l he Hon. MO', ; but as he stl repeat .171 of the arriv oble Lord ann: order.'') W I)? 3ication with .0 " which 8e 1 .4 1 ee o E . the Belgian- e . Court of 1 46 `' h ; night not ny' r r e d that the lajj/ must roar, :hat hi Mir ) give accurate r heir own Governtnrot s should deal 1 , 4 giving the P i mself of the p h r any ~t i bject''': nee before the e case upon 1 ' 44 remedy u rgent , oils notice. table, Lord not then pPS ORDSHIO% :he product iP A, ng to the COP" i neglecting had bcco TM, under ,Dld the uhi.. He • hoped th 6l not trifle W I.—(llear.) motion, b L . Member for rs moved ith the 11l Under-SI to the k . tar.) The had been ve evidence ; h were wad' , by which • brought to forwarded t irk, to .3.1 r. where the, positions respite, Wit h instead of Under Sir feeling's - nfortuo ite Le gaoler, ird. lluess, an uti der-g 3r e , ?bat t l 7 ) f gaol on clerk bud mean. of tinena,e ' 6 " of the r-Sheritl; IS WAS itt , th ° o hat, the act e d , h human e l y , a n d efficiently a, sea: to be proved by ;: .e d epositio ns upon oit h , w hi ch h e (Si r H. llardinge) de -13.d as much as the lion. Member ft• Hertford to be laid efore the House. S., far from hav o ing shown any want o , p f hanianity the Sheriff and his clerk had both evinced a ZY Ole. I:lithanity, and had undertaken much trouble, . expellee in behalf of the convict. It was on the ir'"rning °1 Wednesday that Mr. Nicholson'a cite k left u eo r ,i t at th e gao l t h at t h e resp i te had arrived, and th e in Nk eY havina i n f orme d t h e gao l er of it on the neat morn tg, the latter immedia,elv cinimueicated the intelligence th o e s e ter n•--( Hear.) He . (Sir H. H.) had read ov, r ell th ('epositions, and there seemed to be the clearest proof ~a t Stern had been relieved from anxie y on Thursday 1 4 ,„, -rni ale. If there `L i s any iloubt in Lis mMhail 1-'4 rai sed by Mr. oyd the Chap Lin. It had been stat Ed that the turnkey s - iiil the Under-Sheriff's clerk di i not know him, and that the only authority fir the are heal O R ,,,i''' respite was the wind of a sti anger passing by the cor net -in a gip. Now, if Mr. Lloyd had any doubt . of and h ose oess of the information, that very charitable an t h e pet son might t iken the traulle to send to th 'e under •Sheriff to atieett !in the feet, instead of harassing th e Val of the unfortunate man, whom he urged to take er i L , e "'eraineat and to be prepared to (lie, on eccoent of the i t ainty of the respite. 1 , tile, , G. LAM B regretted exceedingly that his Han. e. 1-44 had thought it necessary to tiring fern' rd the pre hi" r noti,n. H e did not see w h at P ar li ament:lr) - proceed 4:T ll i be foundel upon the papers fir which he had ec e ;'• lie (Mr. Lamb) hail a great respect for the 4 4 „ -P ' ai n tof Hertford gaol, on whose representation the la tn l against the Under• Sheriff and the gaoler had iripj."'unded. He was a most benevolent man, and exceed .,'-',,? zealous in his attentions to the prisoners under his t ett ' t - * He admitted that the utmcar case which lied liven made ge l the Under-Sheriff was, that the respite had not 4 4 „ eni ntrlUniCat N i to the gaoler with sufficient care,.or with ° 4t tenting to the formelity which, in such an import ,4lart of the official duty, be ought to have observed. 'er' e :, Sr .) But still there were many circumstances to " e ` t ° ll elv in his favour. He had taken great pains Ward "tine the case of the convict, and to for , ele r k , the result of his inquiry to the . Judge. .The efth to o, had shown a wish to relieve the anxiety I di re' " Prisoner, by calling at the gaol, instead of going if i 1, 41 Y to Mr. Nicholson's office, as he might have done le,;,' felt rat concern for the man's feelings. But it must I,i uatitted that all that was not enough. The Under-Sheriff haw iar rt , i ' ought to have gone to the gaol, and, in the lili ew a tn anner which so serious a duty required, have litt le ° the respi te to t h e gaoler ; or at least he ought to (li t . a ent to th e gaol an official copy of the respite. hee i al. ) He (J 1 r. Lamb) was sorry that the motion had 'il!ilf,,el'°ades But as his Hon. Friend had introduced the itla - ",;, and as there had been conflicting statements, lie het An t tint oppose the motion. From the affidavits which i iifo r „, t ad, it appear e d th a t St ern h a l receive] speedy Cation that th e res pit e h a d arr i ve d i n H ert f or d . s i' li oNs M£II3ER, who.e name we did not learn, had t hat 1 ,, to Mr. Wilson, the under gaoler, and be thought le ld qtere was great discrepancy between the statements , le t ,: b to him by that perrion, and those which were said to llit i b t ten made in the depositions. There could .be no %I, h 't the Under-Sheriff had riot given notice with due hffc t ''t3' of th e arr i va l o f t h e resp i te. Th e U n d er- Sh e- Ekil ep - ' great influence (as we understood hint) over the ivi,'“• -- (llear.) Mr. Wilson was cent to a person Q) , .! v ery larg e property in the county of H e rtf o rd, an d e,Pdaits made upon his s o licit a ti on oug ht t o b e re ill 'tith some d egree o f caut i on . —(H ear. ) It , 'el,i ' ' 11 UNT hopt.;(l that the Hon M e mb er f or H er tf or d eir,tti Persevere in his motion. It ought to be steer- Ne dept or not the Under-Sheriff had by his negli ttiak 4 ept an unfortunate man unit r sentence of death in ' 4 l b t1 ,,, 1 e 4s to his fate for several days. He (Mr. Hunt) i h'il tr V i re now had occasion to make complaints against 'rle e ',and under-sheriffs—(Hear, and a laugh)—anti be I. , 4 il t : l "tv such persons supported each other by deposie Ole 1 affid av i ts . —(H ear. ) O n one occas i on when he ~'' li d affid av i ts.— (H ear.) preferred to that House a complaint against 7 , "-leheriff and a gaoler, and when the former had I'4irk, ° f it, hCaine over to the gaol from his residence at ' H 'ile:' distance, ee to consult with the gaoler. They t f t , 1 4 , 41 , 4 de affidavits in support of each other. But those ~71,4,1 ' ° , were upon investigation found to be wholly . false. "lti,,'lt'ld therefore not be willing to take the testimony l'llla-te'ailer and Under-Sheriff of Hertford in opposition N ei , - °I. the Rev. Chaplain, who seemed to have taken a ( %, h t view of the convict's case. il h `'' HARDINGE maintained that the statements of ' l titi ll- ' the gaoler, ' did fully justify the conduct of the i L° sheriff; tithe, R OWICK protested against the prolonging of the it j. afirr his Hon. Friend (Mr. Lamb) had said that e 1: ,! . ° , 41 14iVe no opposition to the motion. 'kis h "OULBURN thought that when serious allege 4iti t 81 been made against the Under-Sheriff, the obser st : 1 4 °f his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend were called ,ti t „ n ecessary. 't1„,;• DUNCOMBE said that the gaoler, Wilson, itkl4;lar front thinking that he had received on N i. Ve ti de , liit, " vfficial or certain notice of the arrival . o t %. i . e t ( k 4 : L th at, having heard nothing snore on the su ti• t, th -j uat had been said to the turnkey by the gentleman h t sig, h e sent on . Monda y. . (flee days afterwards) to trder-Sheriff for instructions respecting the building I 'lli eh ° )4,lfrVil., preparatory , to the execution of Stern, 1 (7 . . earl ordered to take place on the next nu.whn 'lA, uesd-q). However, he had no objection to wit - , his motion as his Flo n. Friend desired. 1 0 . H. HARDINGE would consent to the withdraw • i,, t 4 the motion h e h ad seconded, if it was un d erstoo d te ire condu c t o f Mr. Nicholson, the Un d er- Sh er iff , lei e k Z,ri clear e d f rom the imputations wh i c h h a d b een cast Af t 14 '. 'th,. e : some further conversation, which was not heard ,toClery, the, motion was, we believe, withdrawn. 'l t i„ m el EVANS postponed the motion, of which he Lotpl notice, rt•specting Poland. bpi that the House should sit on Saturday. 1,111 teat to a question from Mr. WYNN, Orr e l,, °l MX Loan stated that on Monday the Secretary ' 'tin t ,;" Would bring before the House some questions Q 1.0 ~ 1. that country. , vi l h REFORM BILL. t Zt',, l , -e nAtiou of Lord ALTEIORP, the House then h4li't 6 n , C OMmittee upon the Reform Bill. Itt,ele, iiAIRMAN proceeded to put the (potion upon 01 e i llt h clause, to the effect that the several counties .r.titti.4 schedule G should be divided, each into two , ph ti,„ and that each district should return two Mem •Nte' elections being taken as if such division was a 0, -c) linty, 004,°0LBURN (who, on account of the noise in ' ripi' , /tile very indistinctly heard) asked the Noble . i,,, t aret: t° t s (Lord J. Russell) some questions respecting i % ,„ 4 it,„ - i n Which it was intended to proceed with the Oeite - ' l lion the places named in the schedule, should ill att,littee have agreed to the principl e of the clause ; le'riat 1 ,isi, Manner it was intended to discuss the rule t t l l llle t i ? t he proceedings of the Commissioners were to k 't tcl J r le: 4 i O -IN RUSSELL replied, that the Commis 'sA:l ""kin i' a division should take into account both 0,24 of 6 population and the number of square miles the other of the county, so as to render ' v "ions as nearly equal as possible in extent and ' a rl '') . But th e C omm itt ee mus t b e aware , the. , a Of the country there already existed by cus lized boundaries separating one part of a county `', with which it was not expedient to inter therefore, it would not be advisable to bind the by any strict and invariable rule. How „ "itended to introduce into the Bill a cl ito ause in- Ae , C ommissioners to take carefully ii comi ties population and the extent of the two Jr), of which, on rn - -count of the noise, we u nderstand nothing, e nsu e d b e t ween L or d s E. SUGDEN, and Mr. GOULBURN. tak SSELL repeated that the Commissioners For into accout both the extent and te opu 1' instance the n re were, as an Hon. Ge h ntle p man • , in s ome count i es a very large population in 4 4 1 a very small one in another of the same if the Commissioners were to look only to of two districts of equal population, there y. °n e of the divisions only a very small part of It should, on the contrary, be their object tltkr 4ivisions aF, nearly equal as possible, both in IVi N it ,'robers. —IN ' observed, that in the most populous parts the principal part of the population would irotn the county constituency in consequence 4l for th e representatives of the great towns : as I, l ', i te, a great part of the present county consti-_ u e cut off i n consequence of a Member hav eto that t own . H e l oo k e d upon t h at cir ' a great difficulty in the way of the di ,, `tie Nobl e L or d propose d. tt '? l ' tth and Lord ALTHORP made some obser we could hear nothing on account of the j . I3 EN thought that the Committee could a deliberate opinion respecting the expe th)r ant , one county in the schedule, unle,s itt lb "e division was first laid dawn. No opinion " of the propriety of dividing a county, until 414 • 0 IC p 0(111010 ik itt art p the 00 1 .4p 011 a (I. and C „, ... I l i. : ',7tir:g 1 " t o ? k iti a :ittti o : lom. been tr ll o 4 ' 4 i : 3 ' p ar '' der seri tr opii k lk t st %ll . 48 01 le cs , e r l , ho thi lzed H e cen5°04474414.4d, themi d thAt i ! olVt i t t 'lijo a ifle wit' i t t ti ,:t at , ! I ' l e I ) [ear. , w it ) °ti t g the °ten b ut hi, 41 4: hoth C°l ber for - 11 , 1 1 1.11, till effortve t y,o4vers , 1 ,1 11,,tt04 atiol r-Sberiti, i kv t 4 ti kt% ,s , NI( propri'titio L I , SUS; Th e eire. ,:t e: tal, e tiS: en ` one l b h. p o.. into [ence ; 0 s ii pj tt e airj • , l r . ist wade ", ls i 444 in bleb citell; kt and a ;bt tO lig , r 4 N4 1 : i 4: if t del tbr,ll` 4 ,to t , it? o f t 311'• d":;', g iki t 'Ay. °ne 0 the sO l t t t) it e iiefOrebi" ' L i t 411, 1 ' t di vi , with s c il t li 1 4) ( li t,itrIb i ' f , o io6 1 ,1 ttl,N, NN ‘,.. ) 1 ° iff) , j 11,,N:ti„ ° 4,, ,, ,, ,t 0 ee f 1,00 , \‘ ,: t vtl i ttd `4 ( ' :l l_ , a t o: 1 4 1 1 ty tl lej, 4 for 1 r, ~ k 1 r• oi l .4 1,, t 1, 141 4 1,1i, e, an d el .'4. 4 ! l t i v ° b e , there'L,de t: i is( . 4 'a t o ' 13 0 ,tL tt ,b t th e . on o.l t . tt,,, ,tol c'''''„o l k !‘, 1 ,4,,,01i le St t t 'I ` 4, 11 f t he iS loi rb 4i ,:y '4l ) , r .r . ) , t i; w 0 r rki lq ‘ tilt lioro, t10 1( 'IlY 'I i' he c 4 e rli ' 1 kr" the 1 ' 4 ' l i; the bat °ugh population %vete fist taken out of it. How could the Noble Lord call on the Committee to deal with twenty-five counties in the gross, when he was unable to explain in what way he should deal with any one parti cular county? It might he very Well to say that that should be left to the Commissioners. But would the county Members be satisfied to leave the division to these gentlemen ? The Noble Lord seemed to b particularly anxious not to tie down the Commissioners by any strict or inflexible rule ; hot then he said that their ierard should be submitted to the King, and should not be va"id until it received leis apprebation. It the King should in any case not approve of the proceeding of the Commis sioners, tv6t w a s then to lee done? Was there to be no division? The Committee ought to be in possession of the tarts of every case in this schedule, as well as in all the former schedules. The Bill had been so long in Com mittee, that his Majesty's Ministers ought certainly to have put themselves in rossession of all the facts respect ing each county to be divided. If the collection of those facts would have been attended with expense, that cc!, ought to be incurred, to collide them to state at once to the Committee the divisions which tiny proposed gain I:e in each county. Ti•e Noble Lord ought to be aware that there were counties in which—the voters in the town; having been taken away—there was scarcely an) thing left for a constituency, even without dividing t h e ,„ ). He would mention as an instance the county of Durham. if he :night do so without hieing supposed to mean any thing uncivil. —( A dingle.) In making distinetionsbetweeri those !arts of counties which had large towns in them, a new difficulty would be occasioned by the circumstance that some large towns were to have representatives, the voters in them being abstr dcted front the county consti tuency ; and whilst othd r towns, being unrepresented themselves, should continue to lee reckoned part of the county population. As the Government bad gone so far into popular representation, he thought that they ought to pause before they entirely destroyed the influence of the Aristocracy over the elections her counties. He would maint ein, that in supporting the proposed division of counties, the Howie would he voting upon a reduced con stituency, for in most of those counties affected by the. di vision, towns had been enfranchised in such a manner as to include a large portion of the old county electors. He should most decidedly object tee the powers of the proposed Commise,ionees being final, and without any revision on the part of Parliament. He would put it to the House, whe ther such a division, so much under the direction of Com missioners, was not imparting to the Executive Govern. went a power which no Administration d eight to possess? It might be very well if the Commissioners were directed to obtain information, and turn their attention to the most eligible mode of division, and having done that, make a report, leaving the Ildiuse to decide ultimately upon each individual so proposed ; in fact, the Home mull never form a correct judgment respecting any of the counties divided, unless the whole matter were entered into in de tail; and it was to him, he confessed, a matter of the greatest surprise, that the Noble Lord who introduced the present measure did not favour the Hotne with a Bill, and a minute account of its several provisions, with which it WIIS to be presumed he was perfectly conversant. The question having been put en the clause respecting the division of counties, Mr. HUGHES HUGHES rose to move an amend ment, of which he had given notice. He observed, that it was perfectly pcssible so to divide counties, as to convert each portion into a nomination division, making it a; close as any borough ever was ; and effecting the divisions by means of Commissioners would be an arrangement im parting a most unjust and unreasonable power to the Home Office. Another objection which he had to the division of counties in the manner contemplated would be, that it must inevitably lead to the introduction of the system of voting by ballot ; for, without that, no roan could be free from the undue influence of his Lordship; yet there was nothing he should contemplate with more apprehension than the ballot. The Hon. Member concluded by moving the erasure of all words referring to, or affecting the division of counties. Lord AI.THORP said, that the question which had been rids d on the present occasion was one of great im portance, and well deserved the serious attention of the Committee; but if he consented to the proposed amend ment, it would be consenting to an alteration far greater than he uas sure any supporter of the Bill generally would sanction. The lion. Member had contended that the ballot must be the consequence of the division, owing to the undue influence of landlords which he apprehended, but which apprehension, he most say, appeared tee him totally groundless. The probable effect of the division did appear tee hien to have been greatly exaggerated, though it was not to be denied, that when the division took place, indi viduals would have more power in districts than they ever would have in counties at large, yet no individu a l could expect to return two for a division, though he might fora county having four representatives. The object of the Bill was not to diminish .but to regulate the influence of property, and while it conferred Members upon the poptdaion of the towns, to take care that the 'Lateral influence of the landed interest was not destroyed or improperly diminished. The object of the arrangement under consideration was not to let the increased influence of the town put an end to that due share of aristocratical influence which ought to be preserved in the Constitution. Now no influence could be maintained by threat—those who aimed at it must render themselves in some degree popular. He never could sufficiently urge t h e ob j ections w hi c h pressed upon h i s mend against four Members being elected for a county at drge by the whole of the electors. In most of such cases, were they to occur, public attention would be exclusively fixed upon two or three of the candidates, and nothing would he more likely than that one at !east would get in by private and undue influence. Once more lie must re peat his determination to resist any alteration in this part of the Rill ; and certainly the amendment would be a very marked alteration in the Bid as submitted to that House, sent forth to the country, and approved by the country.— (Cheers.) He really conceived the alteration to lee such as the Government ought nett to consent to, and as the majority which was carrying the Bill through the House ought not to sanction, and he, therefore, trusted that the House would not support the Hon. Gentleman in his proposition. _ Mr. GORE LANGTON said a few words, which were perfectly inaudible. Mr. D. GILBERT said no man could be more friendly to the present clause than he was. Since it became ne cessity to increase the county representation, it was equally necessary to divide the counties. He was likewise friendly to that species of. influence which had been described. He did not wish . to trouble the House at any length, consi dering how precious its time was. There was, however, an alteration which be wished to see introduced, and which he must now beg leave to mention. He dad not desire to take away the franchise from the forty-shilling freeholders, but he did wish to see it somewhat assimi lated to the system which prevailed in Ireland. He thought all forty-shilling freeholds of inheritance should hare a vote, but all other', he conceived, ought to stand on the j warm footing of qualification with copyholtis—that is, the amount of qualification for copyholders should he required for all freeholds not being of inheritance. Mr. CRIPPS observe 1, that it would be perfectly pos sible to arrange the divisions se as to secure all the advan tages anticipated anti none :if the inconveniences. Mr. .1. G. VERNON addressed a few words to the Committee, but in so low a tone as not to reach the gal lery. We undeestood him to express himself warmly in favour of the Bill, and to say that in stating that to be his opinion, he did but echa the sentiments of the great ma jority of his constituents. Sir R. PEEL said, that considering the question ab stractedly, he had the greatest aversion to the division of the counties, as it woula be breaking down one of the oldest land-marks of the country. When he had heard the statement of the Noble Member for Yorkshire (Lord Mor peth), as to keeping the former divisions of Yorkshire, he was not surprised at the general feeling that existed against these new divisions of the country; they were divisions which were as old as the time of Alfred, and had as muc h claim for reverence as many others of the same standi ng , to talk of the destruction of which would almost soun d like sacrilege in the ears of every true lover of his country. In some respects they might be looked upon as the division of Holland and the Netherlands, for it would be disuniting those who, for a long series of years, had been identified by the same interests and the same feelings. Let then, tak e the county of Stafford fur instance. When this di v i s i on took place, he who belonged to No. I Stafford would have a different interest from him who belonged to No. 2 ford ; they would no longer have the same identity of feelings as natives of the same county, which had before existel among therm It was true that all this might b e ii nouneed as so much prejudice ; so it was, perhaps ; but, at the same time, those feelings existed, and it was part of those feelings which had always made Englishmen so ready to defend the Constitution of the country. Ano ther provision of the Bill which he most seriously lamented was, that the division of the counties was to be vested in Commissioners, and not in the House of Commons itself. —(Cheers.) This he thought objectionable in the highest degree; and if they had been heretofore jealous of per. miffing any one to interfere with their elections, how much more so ought they now to be, when these Commissioners ~ vere to decide the division of twenty-six of the largest counties in England—(Cheers)—not one of which Com missioners probably would be chosen from the House, and whose decision was to he so peremptory, that they were even told that not even the Ci ow u itself was to hone the prerogative of supervision under the provisions of the Act ? —(Cheers.) If the Bill was to pass into a law, they wer,- bound to use their best endeavours to make it perfect as far as it went ; and he, therefore, thought that they ought to , inake the most strenuous opposition to the appointment of Commis-loners fer the i.e formanee of a rluty which really oelonged to the 'louse ; and if it was said that the 'louse was too numerous a hods , to take this mater into consider ti.iut his answer was, that in that case a CAritnitte of tb, House mieht he ;ippointed, whose capacity to perform the tsk would he unexciTtiooalile, and whose teed-ion, as ma i-rain:: from an authorised pm thin of the Hou•e, cou'd not he call e d in question by the House itse , f. Another Ores it''jeetion which he had to this part of the Bill was, that the flouse was called upon to give at once its conseet to an in lefinite division of all the priiii•ipal counties of England, without so much as knowing whether the division was to run from Norah to South, or from Eist to West ; so that, in voting for the additional Memlters to ()unties, they would be in fact voting for some thing, the effect of which they could nut by any possibility foresee.—(Cheer..) As he had already said, to the division of the counties (akin;; it abstractedly), Ite the greatest objection ; but when he viewed the sub ject with reference to this Bill, at the same time taking into ccimideration the disfranchise intlit that hail been in flicted on the borough systm by means of schedules A irod B, he thought that the adoption of the division of the counties was a judicious step.—(Cheers troll the Ministe rial side.) He thought that the teal way of giving power to the landed interest was by the adoption of this system ; and it was for this reason that these who thought that the Bill did not co far enough as a democratic toes sure, would not be pleased at hearing that he intended to vote for the division of the counties. In spite, however. of that displeasure, he must fairly avow that he did so vote, because he thought that this would he the only way to give a counterpoise to the manufacturing interest. Put though, for this reason, lie was ready to vote for the divi sion of the counties, he still thought ilest the proposition was open tiegreat improvement—(CChrers)—and more es pecially with respect to the appointment of Commis sioners, to which he had already adverted. Another great improvement of which he thought the plan susceptib!e, would be, if after constituting an electorial district for each town, they were to prevent any person having a vote in that district from having any influence at the county election. At present there appeared to be a strange ano maly its this respect, fur while the freeholder, to vote for a town election, roust be a ten-pound freeholder (he was speahing strictly of freeholders here)---a forty-shilling free hold was sufficient to give him a vote for the county. There was one other clause in the Bill to which he hail a very great chj-ction, and he would take that opportunity of stating it. According to the provisions of the Bill, every forty-shilling freeholder belonging to cities that were counties, had a right to vote at the county election, but not for the city in which they were resident. He would take Litchfield as an instance; in that city there were great numbers of persons created voters by being made annui tants, which, though not legal, was continually practised to a very considerable extent ; in Lichfield, probably, there were as many as front four to five hundred of these persons ; and he certainly thought that it would lie most unadvisable to allow them to have a tight of voting for the county ; it was true that it might be said that annui tants might, in the same way, be constituted in the county, but there was not the same temptation there; and at all events, they ought to take care that the counties were not overflowed by those annuitants from the county cities. He did nut know whether these objections, which he thought most important, could be got over ; but, at all events, he should vote for the division of the counties on the ground he had already stated—that it would be giving much greater influence to the possessors of landed estates, and consequently be the means of returning to that House those country gentlemen, who, it WO; agreed on all hands, were most active in transacting the business of the country. A country gentleman, in his opinion, would have been a much fitter representative for Yorkshire than the present Lord Chancellor; and the great advantage that such a one would derive from the proposed division would be, that he would be able to secure his return at a much cheaper rate. Mr. GISBORNE could not agree with the Right Hon Baronet, that it would be better to confine the annu-. itants of county cities to voting for those cities, and not for the counties ; if they were so confined, they would bare much more power in influencing the election than if they were put upon the county, where the number of freeholders sometimes amounted to eight or 10,000 Sir J. WROTTESLEY expressed a similar opinion. Colonel DAVIES was astonished at the manner in which the Right Hon. Baronet was going to vote, especi ally after the lamentation with which he bad commenced; nor was this all, for after the Right Hon. Baronet had been at extraordinary pains to show the evil that would arise from appointing Commissioners to superintend the division of counties, he concluded by expressing his de termination to vote fin the very measure that would give them that power. The Right Hon. Baronet had talked of democratic influence ; he was averse to democratic influ ence; but he was equally averse to aristocratic nomina tion, and he thought, after giving 250 Members to the counties, no one could say that the interests of the Aristo cracy were not taken care of. He concluded by declaring his intention to vote for the propestion of the Hon. Member behind him (Mr. 11. Hughes), and observed at the same time be should move, to-morrow, that no perso n who voted for a city or borough should be allowed also to vote for a county. Mr. HODGES said that the part of the Bill which he approved of least was the division of the counties; h ut the keling in favour of the whole Bill was so unanimous through the country, that he had been induced to alter his opinion. He was not so much afraid cf aristocratic in fluence as some other persons seetned to be; and although he believed he would offend many of his constituents, yet, as the country demanded the who!e Bill, he was hound to preserve !he consistency of the measure, and to vote for the division of counties. ho hoped, however, that in the future elitists some provision would be made for the fur ther extension of voting in counties. Mr. C. WYNN said he would support the proposition for a division of counties. He had formerly, upon the question of giving four Members to York, intimated his o w p e it s i t io ß n i t d h in a g t the st would he equally beneficial in the. other great counties of s t , ile an iA d iem ll be t r v s as sb c u o u n id v in be ce g d iv t c h n at to E pr a inci a i n sl i e l England. He objected, however, to the method of ar- Commissio ners , a n l i :undon this sys anntndgli,t,i,gpetlite d ti,a , t vi t s i i i i e tris o t i l , n e o r tg i i ,i Ltl t te w n: , e ti a h n i s tem of delegation, and leave the boundaries to be arranged by Pailiament, who writer], he was convinced, pass a Bill for that purpose much sooner than the Commissioners could agree on their plan of division. Sir GEORGE MURRAY saw so much of a demo cratic principle in the Bill, that be was happy to give all the Members in his potter to the counties. Ile objected, however, to the division of the counties, because he wished to avoid taking any step towards recognising the employment of Commissioners, and because it might lead afterwards to a departmental division of the kingdom, which he thought highly obj,ctionable in any ease, and which, in other hands than those of the present Govern ment, might ultimately }move dangerous, and be made still further to operate to an increase of democratic influence. After a few words from Mr. SAVILLE LumLEY, the purport of which did not reach the gallery, Mr. LITTLETON said, that unless the counties were divided, the contests for a seat ;you'd he so frequent and so expensive, that no Member would he able to retain his place unless he made mean and unworthy sacrifices to the sentiments anti prejudices of his constituents. As to the division through the means of the Commissioners, he was content to Inv; that plan to be carried into effect by the honourable and intelligent men who would doubtless he selected for this purpose by his Majesty's Government. Mr. BRISCOE was determined to support the amend.. writ, because he thought the original proposition had a tendency to subvert and neutralise the whole of the other parts of the Bill. Now, he would ask, could those who i'avoured popular representation vote for a measure which would deprive the middle classes and mm of moderate property of all their just influence in their counties ? The proposal division of counties was calculated to rea►ore that nest of corruption hich it was the protested object of the Bill to destroy, and to put an end to the hope of a full, fair, and free representation of the people. Mr. BENETT expressed his regret at Icing compelled to vote .against his Majesty's Government on the present occasion. Sir CHARLES WETHERELL observed that in the first Bill it was proposed to give to two or three Members of the Privy Council the power to divide the counties. That however appeared too gl,irimr, too enormous ; and so in the present Bill it was proposed to give that power to three, four, or five Commissioners, irresponsible, whose decision was to remain unrevised by any one. He could never consent to the delegation in this manner of that which ought to be the exclusive province of the Legislature. No Principl e was laid down upon which the Commissioners were to proceed. They were not told whether they were to divide counties according to property, according to po pulation, according to the payment of taxes, or according to any other rule. All this w,03 to be done, too, without any previous intimation to those whose rights were thus to be interfered with. Why, there was not a Canal Bill, a Ihrhour Bill, a Dock Bill, a Turnpike mid Bill, introduced into that House without a previous notice to ', s toic:, in (Ida that tic flu ties interested sleight 'guard against the infringement of their rights. And here was a measure cutting tip all the counties of England into slices, without notice, without appeal. What a mockery was this 1 But it all tended to forward the pro gress of revolution. It all tended td a direct iacobinical division of the country. It was a sequel to the measure proposed by :Le Lord Privy Seal in 1821, for the purpose of ono:tinning England into departmental divisions : Whst woald be the enscquonce of adopting the proposi tion under eensiderrion ? There were many Hon: Tilsit!- It rs who no at fancied t! emsrlc•es eetin ry Member-. Would they he so by-and by ? For instance, there would be no Hon. MenO•er for Wiltshir e H e wro od be sol't into a Member for the North of Wiltshire, and a Member for the South of Wiltshire. The Noble Lord opposite would not be the Member for Northampton shire. lie must be described by a circumlocution, tra v flog :Itrouel, the names of eeverrl little districts. There w-orld be Cee nf:er for the North of Surrey and the Niember for the South of Surrey—the Member for the Maidstone division of Kent, and the Mender for the Canterbury division of Keno Fifty per cent, would be deducted from the present impor taece and dignity of a county Member. At present the 'Member for a county thought himself greatly superior to the Mendel. for a bo rough. But when a yre-ent county Member became only a half-courov Member, he, the humbl e Member for Bo roughbridge, might stand erect by Its aide.—(A laugh.) The propesitioo was to bring down the indeproolent and dionificd county Member to the level of the pr or corrupt Member for a borough. This was a change which, in his opinion, was exceedingly unr e h o t esome . A ri d who were the Commissioners to he ? Addison had said " that it was i t npossible to dislike those who we had never seen, and whom we (lid rot know," He (Sir C. Wetl:erel') could not be supposed, therefore, to speak from prejudice. But he felt it impossible to consent to entrust these incognito Commissioners with the power of destroy ing or diminishing, at their pleasure, !he influence of the landed interest of the whole country. It was an anomaly in the practice of the Constitution to which he would on pose all the resistance of which he was capable. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that if, instead of pro posing that the division of counties should be made by Commissioners to be appointed by Parliament, it had been proposed that it should be made by a Committee of that /louse, all the ditlieultica which they had experience.' in going through the schedules would have been material:) , aggravated. For the Hon. and Learned Member for Bo rouglibridge would still call oil that would he proposed in that Committee blunders or corruption; and their pro ceedings would be involved in interminable details. It was in anticipation of all these diffieulti.s, that it was in the first instance proposed to refer the subject to certain mem bers of the Privy Council, now changed to Commis sioners. The objections made to the division of counties were partly to the crop rsition itself, and partly to the mode in 'which it was to be carried into effect. On the mode he had already said something. Ile would say further, that although it was pi oposed to effect the obj-ct by the instrumentality , of Commissioners, there was nothing in the Bill to prevent Parliament, if they thou g ht any di vision had been ill made, to reverse the act of the Commis sioners, and to make a different division. As to the pro position ioelf, the division of counties would give birth to a greater variety of interests, If a county were to return four Members, instead of being divided into two districts returning two Members each, the return would, in many cases, he more a matter of chance than of choice. He quite agreed with the Hon. Member for Montgomery, that it was very desirable, generally speaking, that the county Members should he permanent representatives. Now it was quite dear that the election of four Members would be liable to more vacillation and vicissitude than the election of two Members. Itwould also he attended with a greater expense to the constituency. Adverting to the proposition of the lion. Member for Worcester, he begged to remark, that allowing freeholders to vote in towns would have the effect of converting them into no mination boroughs, and therefore art effect directly con trary to that intended by Hon. Gentleman. Cololonel SIBTHORPE said, he would regard the acts of the Commissioners with extreme jealousy, as gen tlemen on that side of the House had no meani of con trouling the election of those functionaries. He was glad to see the Hon. Members oppcsite divided in opinion upon this question, and thought the farther they went with this Bill the mote necessity would be seen for altering it. Mr. O'CONNELL said, that the people of Englano had been fascinated by that principle of the Bill which de stroyed nomination boroughs. Schedule A had delighted the whole nation ; but nothing, however, would have been• done—all the labour of that House would be thrown away and the country disappointed and deluded—if they now set up one set of nomination places instead of another. From the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) and from the admissions of the Ministers themselves, he was convinced these districts would be completely nomi nation districts, and quite as rotten as the nomination bo roughs. It was perfectly evident that the great proper ties, which in a whole county might balance each other, or be balanced by a crowd of smaller properties, would be of overbearing influence in its own district. This clause Was, in fact, making a mockery of the Bill instead of a reality. It was holding out the word of hope an-I promise to the ear, arid not keeping it to the good sense.—(A laugh.) All who cherished the democratic principle ought to vote against this clause. If they looked back to history, they would see that every country has prospered and flourished in proportion to the extent of its democratic Principle.—(A laugh.) He would, he admitted, vote for this clause if he thought it would promote the vote by bal lot. This he did not believe, and therefore wished to se cure the only other protection for the freeholders—namely, voting in large masses. On the same principle of Reform upon which he had supported all the other clauses of the Bill, he would vote agaiust that. Lord MILTON declared lie would vote for the division of th e counties. He admitted that influence of familir s might be increased in some few of the smaller counties, but to no great extent. The statement of the Hon. Mem ber fo r Kerry was, he could stat e of his own knowledge, most exaggerated. No division of any c linty would have much less than 100,000 inhabitants, and therefore, to say all their divisions would be nomination places, Was absurd. Mr. HUNT said it was obvious there was at once a do fectiein in the ranks of Ministers, and a split in the enemy's camp. He concurred with the Noble Lord in approving of the division, as the best mode of proceeding under all the circumstances. He thought Government ou-'ht not to n be l e f t i n th e lurch on the pres en t occas i on, and expressed his b e li e f th a t to defeat this clau se was to defeat the whole Bill ; and he commented uponwthlirechitnicie(yrossisotesntor: of uou the iy Hon. M e mber for Kerry, and others wh o knew this clause '4 supported, ami n the Bill of last year, and for which they h a d so recently declared, shouti ng a loud for the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill—(1Iear, hear, hear)—and who now, never theless, d es erted Ministers, and rushed forwa r d t o oppose it. lle aserved, too, how he bad been denounced by the lion. Member for Kerry, when he had said this Bill was, in essence, an aristocratic measure; and yet now the Hon. Gentleman a sserted the same thing Touching tie ap; polo tment of the Commissioners, he had a scheme to pro pose. R was to call a cou n ty meet i ng, an d lot the free holders appoint three honourable men belonging to the co unty, who knew the localities, an d on w h om they could depend, to divide the county. In co nc l us i on h e stated, tree o support Government c who nm w en is t h e e n d ttoheseeptrheeselnltillca r because th e y h a d b een deserted by many who ought occa sion,nihdave adhered t o t h em. that__allout Mr. GOULBUIIN declared he would vote for the divi sion of countiep, because it was calculated to do more to maintain the just influence of property, than could bs obtained by giving an increase of representation to the county at large. Lord STANLEY said, that he had used his utmost en deavours to ascertain the feeling of the county he repre sented on this subject, and be had only been able to rind one individual ill favour of the proposed division. M r- H. HUGHES was resolved to go to a division on his amendment. I Ai r • C. PELHAM said a few word.. ' Mr. BLANIIRE said that, though the county of Cum berland had now a small population, it had a large consti tuency,amounting to a b ove 9,000 ; and he believed that tleision would have a most injurious effect upon the freedom of election in that county. The Committee then divided, when there appeared-- For the original clause oil For the am endment l 3" Majo r it y i n favour of Ministers....-1 C 9 The House re sume d , and the other Orders of the Day having been diipesed o f, the House adjourned at Two o'clock. ISO USE OF LORDS, AuGusr 11. The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at a Quarter past Five o'clock. Lord SKELAIERSDALE moved the second reading of the Ecclesiastical Exchan , :e Bill : which, after a few ob servatior.s of the Noble Earl, explanatory of the nature of the Bill, was ordered to be committed. The Earl of FINCIALL presented two petitions from raishes in the county of Meath against the grant to the Kildare-street Societt. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY gave notice that to- mattow he should move lot the evillence giean kenos: th e Dublin Election Committee of the House of Commons. CORONATION. Vi-count STRANGFORD wished to put a question to the Noble Earl at the bead cef Majeatv's Government. Ile the (Noble i'iseount) waived f > kn.'s:- whether, in the en, tailmeot mai to take al:see in the ceremony of the Coronation of his present A 1.4 -sty, th e Peers of Eng land and Iteland ware to he deprived of the coostitotional right of p ;o,' homage to his gent:loot Was given to understood that the present Got-cerement, amongst ether abridgetnenta of that at:gust r remony, meant that only nest from each rank of the io hiiity pay homage on behalf of the (steer,: lithong ir,zto that rat& This he onderstacel Wig of present in contemplation of dud he felt extremely :minus t know whether it had any fomedetion• in truth, oil GREY oh served, that all he could etat e op t , tap subject was, that it had been the desire of his Mejesty to save as much expense as posible in the ceremony tekreed to lay the Noble Viscount ; to whit:!, desire his Majesty's Motistera felt they were bound to attend. el'eh though it might be utconnected with tit, ir own wish es . In easwee to ihe Noble Viscount lie would assure hint and the House th the ceremony was nil eatrosttd to Government, ;Jot to the Privy Council, to whom all tnattera on the Sub ji et were referred. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought it would be important for the Noble Viscount to know that it was not referred to the Pairy Council, as he might ttuderstand it at present eonstituted, but to a Committee of that Privy Conned. Lord HOLLAND had yet to learn that the King Lad nit a perfect right of nominating any Committee of the Privy Council he might think proper, end that Conatnittee teas, in contrition courtesy, gifted with all the privileges of Gsvernment in that respect„ The Duke of WELLINGTON obsereed that en former occasions it had b en usual to leave the questiaa: of the cereanomal to the whole, and nut to a Committee of the Privy Council, and he was exceedingly sorry to see any part of so solemn a ceremonial aatidged, Lord HOLLAND—The first step teas to ref the mat ter to the whole Privy Council. In the next place, those who attended were afterwards summoned. and his Majesty then selected the Committee to consider the particular nut ter. The Noble Duke bad confirmed hit statement as to the practice of referring the consideration of the, erremo monial of the Coronation to Vie Privy Council at large, and not to the Cabinet Council. Earl GREY stated that one great object of his M ,jestj's Ministers was to reduce the ees;:ense of tic Coronation, without omitting anything essential to the ceremony. The last Coronation had cost (we understood his Lordship to say) 240,000/. It was intended the expanse of the present Coronation should not amount to more than one-fifth of that sum —(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY expressed his thanks to lis Noble Friend (Strangford) near him, for calling the attention of their Lordships to this subject. There were many Peers in this House whet would not de pute their dory of paying homage to his Majesty, on occa sion of his Coronation, to any one. It Wii9the more un fortunate th'it these unseemly mutilations and curtailments should now take place, when they recollected the magnifi cent scale on which the lost Coronati on ceremon y had been conducted. One could not help looking back to that, when they saw the new arrangements now to be made. But this was conformable to the rest of the policy of the pre sent Government, which was founded on a principle of new modelling and levelling everything, o ithout regard evan to the most sacred c remonies of the Constitution. It was a most itnportant and sacred part of this ceremony that every Pm- should do homage to his Majesty in per son. Ile, therefore, would recommend to his Majesty's Ministers se.iously to consider the question again, to con sider what would be most agreeable to the Peers, as well as to others. Lord GODERICH—When the Noble 'Marquis adverted to the other transactions of his Majesty's Ministers, and described them as being founded on a principle of levelling every thing, he could not trust himself to reply to that assertion in the manner which it deserved. But as to the circumstance which had given rise to this conversation, he could not but consider it as rather extraordinary that so much objection should be made to the Peers doing homage by delegates on occasion of a coronation ceremony, when he considered that this plan of rendering homage by delegates had been adopted at so late a period as the cero , nation of George 111. Homat t ze had been done upon the plan ef a delegation from etch rank of the Peet age at the time of the coronation of George 111., and, therefore, the Noble Marquis had found out a mate's nest on this, as well as on other occasions. —(Hear, hear.) If then, this plan of doing homage by delegation had been adopted so • recently as at the coronation of George 111 , it most surely be considered as a most unfounded accusation of his 31a jesty's Ministers that their object was to degrade the Crown or to trench on the rights and dignity of the Peerage.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis might ascribe improper motives to his Majesty's Ministers if he pleased, but they rejected the imputation with disdain. The LORD CHANCELLOR—It had sometimes of late been imputed to him that he had been out of order in some of his addresses to the House, but at present he begged leave to remind them that they were all cut of order. This discus-ion had been commenced when he, as Speaker of their Lordships' House, was absent, to put the question on a motion for the return of some papers from Ireland, and was continued without his having the oppor tunity to put the question. (His Lordship then put the question, that time returns be made forthwith.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY claimed a right to set himself right as to what had been stated by the Noble Viscount (Goderich). He claimed a right, as a Peer of that House, to say that Ministers were pursuing a course destructive of our blessed Constitution, as often as he pleased ; and he would tell the Noble Viscount, that he would not be deterred front doing his duty as a Peer of Parliament by anything that any of his Majesty's Minis ters might be pleased to say. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose to order. The Noble Marquis was speaking on a subject with which the question before the House had nothing to do. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY insisted that he had a right to state his opinion that the Ministers were pulling down the Constitution. _ Lord HOLLAND—It was certainly not unusual to put questions, and to allow some discussion with respect to them, although the practice was not strictly conformable to miler. But, in the pre ent instance a question had been put from the Woolsack, and then the Noble Mar quis proceeded to make observations, not one word of which had any reference to the question before the House. This was like treating the orders of the House with neglect and contempt. The Marquis ought to make a motion, if he was desirous to persevere in this course. The 111alquis of LONDONDERRY insisted Out he had a right to reply to the animated—he did not say, im proper or d isrespectful, but to the animated—remarks of the Noble Viscount.—(Cries of move, move.) The Noble Viscount had attacked him, and he had a right to reply. The Duke of RICHMOND rose to order. The Noble Marquis had himself shown more disrespect to his Majesty thin any on , ! else had-shown in the course of the present discussion. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY defied any one to show that he had been guilty of any disrespect to his Ma jesty.. He had contended that the Ministers had departed from the usu d course of the Constitution in preventing each of the Peers from doin; homage fur himself to his Majesty at his Coronation, and he had recommended to his Majesty's Ministers seriously to re-consider the sub ject. He had been guilty of no disrespect to his Majesty. He had only exercised his coistitutional right to censure the proceedings of his Majesty's Ministers.—(Order.) The question was then again put, that the returns of Irish Governors and Magistrates should be made forth- with, and the motion wan - agreed to. The Exchequer Bills' Bill was read a third time and passed. COAL DUTIES. On the motion for the third reading of the Coal Duics Repeal Bil , — Tiie Duke of WELLINGTON' observed that this Bill required a great deal of explanation. The object was to repeal the duties on coals, but it was not explained how this could he properly done at present,• considering the state of the revenue, which at present was hardly equal to the expenditure. But this, however, was not what he considered as the principal objection to the Bill. It might be very proper to repeal these duties, but his Majesty's Ministers had begun in the wrong way. They ought to have begun by correcting the abuses in the port of London, witheut which the people would not have the advantage of the repeal of the duties. Hence it appeared that able , ugh the duties were in effect repealed so early as March itst, • the price of coals to the consumer hal rather increased than dirnini , bed. The late Government had a plan in view lir the repeal of these duties, but the plan which they had in view was, first, to repeal the duties at the place of export—then to correct the abuses in the port of London— and, lastly, to repeal the duties generally, when the public would have the advantage of it. At present the people had no advantage from it. Then it ought to be con s dere.l that when the duty was taken off coa's ex portel to foreign states, additional duties on the import night be imposed by these static. The Noble Dole then stated that he thought the risTeges of the Nous,. a f I _,,f!rd :i - Cie at6iiig.tt Urn b 'lit' Di se lionsfe heel pursued in teletence to th's Bill. They had in effect re p ailed the duty since March last, upon no better authority th n a vote of the House of Commons. He thought that :hie was a %trip which the Ministers were not justifie I in taking, wince it was not absolutely necessary. The b tier -An would have been not to have diaaolved the last Par liiitient so precipitately, but to have allowed it to sit there weeks Linger, and then to have proceeded regularly- ; isr, if they thought it neets,ary to dissolve the last Par ia meet foe their own oheecte, then they might have delayed the repeal :ill the meeting of the present Parliament. lie thaiught it necessary to call their Lordships' attention to !hie arobject, ad; there :seemed to be some danger that, under :lei pee' Credatitu ion which seas to be introduced, the privileges of fie clause might be Jest, but he did not mean oppose the Bill. Lord GODERICH did not think that there was any e mend fur the objections stated by the Noble Duke. The in./icier& practice wag, when the House of Commons came to any resolution repealing or altering duties—the invariable practice was to carry that alteration into Mime- Ii tie e frect, though such resolutions were nut a law till thay had received the sanction of both Houses and the Crown. Unless that were done great confusion would ensue, and great apeenlation would se caused. That was tier re 'son fur taking the duty off coals on the let March. ILe highly approved of the taking off that duty, as it was :nest unjust in principle. It bore the heaviest where the cessitieds of the people were greatest. In the southern eiitinties, where fuel was scarce, it led to a system of plundering troeds, which led to :onus' more serious cranes. 'the Noble Duke seemed to think that the ee -1 ed should have been relayed till the regulations of the eio il trade in the port of London had been carried into ettict. That would have been vel r..tion•il had th e ti x • :teplied only to London, but it would have been very injurious fa the Teat of the community e filch erect subject to this tax. There was, however, a Bill then in re:peel through Parliament to relieve the city of Lonrho) from three onerous reguleione. The olijert of Levering the duty ten the exportation of coal-, to which the Noble Duke referred, Was to eurourriee the export of coals. !le tit:firipit,tl no evils from that exportation. Ile did not expect that times would be any deficienry of coals in the country, as lie believed the stock would last for 20,000 years. He had no apprehension either that the ex port would contribute to raise up rival manufactures for something else beside resale were requisite, which other cotnitties ceold not command, - The coils that were exported were not, in feet, in use here, and, there / ire, without doing any injury to cur manufacturer s, allowing the export would confer s p , ieitive benefit on the coal owner. As to the revenue, he would assure the NeSle Duke that the expected produce of this year, including all anticipated losses, would not he deficient. There was no ground whatever for fearing that our revenue would not lei sufficient to answer all demands. Tin it Lordships !night calculate icy the half year aireediy peered that the revenue would be ample. He did not anticipate, there fore, from the reduction of taxes, jedgirtg by experience, that the revenue would fall off for that reduction. There was an elasticity in the national resources which carried the revenue above all expected reduction. The Noble Lord hail stated, that in consequence of the reductien in the Excise duties last year, and this year, it mist have been expected thet the Excise revenue svould have fallen off upwards of 2,000,000/, when the defalcation weds only about 900,000/. The same fact was ob ervable in the Customs. He considered these redactions calculated to confer great benefit on the people. There Is as no remold fur supposing diet the country was not able to meet all the demand.; upon it, which was the case with no other country. The Duke of WELLINGTON explained. Ile wow afraid that the conaequerice of the Bill introduced into the other 'louse for regulating the coal trade of London, would compel the Noble Lords opposite either to levy the coal duties in the port of London, or the north of Eng- I Ind, or give the city of London 'ionic equivalent for the duties on coals. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY recommend e d some duty on imports, instead of the duty en coals in the pout of London, and that the duty on coals :or the city of Lon don should he done away. The Noble Lord also stated, that the price of coals had been kept up by the combina tion and standing out of the colliere, since the duty was taken elf. Tie was afraid, from the accounts he received from the north of England, that the people there remained very discontented, notwithstanding the concessions of the coal owners. lie deplored the combination of the work mea generally in unimis who were assembling far political purposes. under the mask of regulating the trade. The Noble 'Marquis then referred to an advertisement, calling a meeting of the Northern Union to =eider, among other things, of the means to express their loyalry to their sove reign, and the effects of the Reform Bill, with various other political subjects. The advertisement concluded with many expressions of loyalty and attachment to the throne. He put it to their Lordships whether these were the people who wire calculated to take political and legis lative measures into their consideration. He wished them to return to their obedience to their employers, and con tinue obedient to them ; and if they did that, there might yet be some hopes of the prosperity of that part of the country. lie appealed to Noble Lords, count cted with that part of the country, if such proceedings were proper ; and he had adverted to the subject, because he felt some un easiness as to that part of the country. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE augure I well of the dis position of the people ix that part of the country, and of the disposition of the people generally, whatever might be the disposition of the individuals, that whoever addressed the people could not do it in any other language then that of loyalty, a t nd obedience, and attachment to the throne. It was satisfactory to hear, from the Noble Lord's statement, that it was not possible to convene large bodies of men unless such language was used, and it wail not possible to influence them, except by having recourse to sentiments that were loyal, just, and peaceful, similar to that quoted by the Noble Marquis. He believed he might assert, whatever apprehensions existed as to the general temper and feelings of the peol.le, and whatever might be the feelings and designs of individuals, which he was not disposed to deny, still it was most satisfactory to know that whenever large bodies of men were to be ap pealed to, whenever multitudes were to be brought into action, it wee satisfactory to know that they could only be moved by appeals to their loyalty, and to their attachment to the country. He roar principally, how ever, to confirm the satisfactory conclusion drawn by his Noble Friend on the state of the revenue. With respect to the repeal of the duties on coals, that repeal must be imperfect, as long as any local duties remained, either in this or any other part of the kingdom. He believed Ire land would be very much benefitted by a total repeal of all such duties. They ought to he done away, totally done away, in Dublin, as well as in London ; and an article that was next to bread, as the foundation of enbsistence, that contributed to the physical comfort and enjoyment of the poor quite as much as bread, at the same time that it was the great means of providing them Ishii employment, and adding to the national welfare, ought to be free as air, and as freely carried to and from every part of the king dein. It ought to find its way as readily to the furnace of the manufacturer as to the kitchen of the poor man, and ought in no port or place to be interfeted with by Custom house or Excise officers, or impeded in its free circulation. That was in his opinion most desirable; and he therefore regarded the repeal of the duty, as far as :t went, with much satisfaction. With respect to the general state of the re venue, he agreed with the Noble Duke that it would he satisfactory if there were a larger sure us revenue; and he wished the surplus were much greater than it actually was. lie believed, however, that with all the reductions pro pond, the surplus would not be less than 300,000/. or 400,000/. There were two ways in Which the surplus might be looked at. It 'night be kept up by keeping up all the present taxes, or they might be reduced with a view of promoting the pros perity of the country, and so increasing the resources and providing a large additional revenue at some future time. The country was at present in that sate which made it more desirable that the taxes should be reduced, with a regard to future prosperity and present employment for the people, than that they should be kept on to provide a large present surplus. He looked forward to a great improvement in the revenue, by so removing nixes as to allow the natural resources of the country to expand there s, 'yes by means which at once gave relief to the poor, and encouraged the capitalist to embark his means in providing fresh employment for them: They ought to look to the repeal of taxes which would have such effects; and the repeal of the tax on coals possessed all these good qualities. It encouraeed trade, it stimulated manufactures, it pee present relief, and supplied the means of levying an in creased revenue hereafter. Tn.: tax on printed cottons was similar in its operation. The law had been very bene ficial to Ireland, by raving the manufacturers there from firing overwhelmed by the article, as they had been from England. He considered that all the taxes which had been repealed had been must judiciously selected, and that the r..pell was caleulArd to promote the prosperity of the country. Such repeals ought always to be gradual, and _ . lie trusted he should never hear iti this country of any ,iidtien changes in tazAtion, for all such changes did harm. Ho hoped that their Lordships would at tim es care f u ll y eryise our Own R yerm—not with a view t o ma k e any swiden changes, but with a view gradually to repeal duti es that were most onerous, and ea. efully selecting such