The Sun. — London, England, 1834-08-12 00:00:00

authorized the Commissions to examine and report as to the manner in which all parsons, rectors, and clergy were in the habit of performing their duties, and actually how fart he clergy complied with the law in allowing a sufficient income to their stipendiaries I—one of the strongest measures that could very well be thought of. He (the Noble and Learned Lord) begged to remind their Lordships that he had been dragged into this discussion very unexpect edly and very unusually.—( Hear, hear.) It was by no means a convenient mode of discussing a question of this sort, especially where it was intended to throw a censure on the Crown or the Government. It was much more con - venient and fair to give a notice of motion, and if any Noble Lord chose to adopt that course, he (the Lord Chancellor) would be perfectly ready to vindicate the commission, because whatever responst.ility was attached to it he had his share of that, he having put the Great Seal to it; but he had never done an act in respect of which he felt his weight of responsi bilit y less. Tl:e Bishop of ROCHESTER said that the late most learned and excellent Lord Chief Justice of England had told him that there was no law to authorise the issuing of that Commission.—( Hear.) The Earl of WICKLOW said that every Peer was bound to discharge himself according to his conscience; and while acting conscientiously, as the Right Rev. Prelate had done, he was perfectly justified in delivering his sentiments. The Noble and Learned Lord, however, had thought fit to advert to the manner in which he held his seat in that House. He hoped no such allusions would deter any Member of that Bench from boldly discharging his duty by the open avowal of his sentiments. He might be wrong, but in poi n t o f l aw h e thought the Commission in question was not binding in law. Many such Commissions had been disobeyed, and no steps taken in consequence. In this Commission, however, there was something so grossly injurious, so impolitic, and so destructive in its nature, that he hoped the people of Ireland would consider it their duty to refuse obedience to it. He stated this as a Peer of Parliament, it being his right in that character to make such a statement; and he hoped his voice would be heard to a distant part of that country, that it might be known there was at least a doubt upon the subject. Lord WYNFORD said the Crown had no prerogative to issue such a commission. The present commission went to ascertain facts that of themselves established the illegality of the commission. It was to ascertain the property of the clergy. Now the Clergy were no more bound to answer questions of that description than they were bound to give up their pro perty.—( Hear, hear.) He contended that no commission could be issued without an Act of Parliament, or if it were it was illegal. There could not be a snore dangerous measure for the prerogative of the Crown, than to issue commissions under the authority of the Crown, by the advice of his Majesty's Ministers without the sanction of Parliament. The Commis sion not only w a s empowere d to inquire into the revenues of the Clergy, but into the number of the several sects. What right had the Commissioners to ask such questions? They had none. The Commission should not be issued, and was illegal. The Noble Lord was very imperfectly heard.) The LORD CHANCELLOR had no wish to prolong the debate. The Noble and Learned Lord he was ready to meet on the question at any time. As to the Commission of 1930, the Noble Lord was quite mistaken—that Commission was mistaken. It was absolutely issued to inquire into the conduct of the Irish Clergy, and to ascertain if they paid their curates their full salary. It would be a different thing to issue a Commission to inquire into the private affairs of individuals. But that was not the object of the Commission. If the No ble and Learned Lord stood on the dictum of Lord Coke, that a Commission was illegal if it had not the power of ad judication, he was in great error; a Commission might be legal without leading to adjudication. The Noble Lord him self, in referring as an authority to the authority of the Crimi nal Law Commission, which led to no adjudication, contra vened his own principle. The Law Commission was issued without the authority of an act of Parliament, and so were va rious other Commissions ; yet they were not pronounced ille gal. Since the time of James 11. thirty Commissions were issued without leading to any adjudication, and on the same ground as the present Commission. It was irregular to take advantage of a question put on a different subject in order to start the present objection. Lord WYNFORD gave notice that he would move for an inquiry into the legality of the present Commission. The Bishop of EXETER presented several petitions (from Devonshire, we understood) in favour of the church. MESSAGE FROM HIS MAJESTY. Lord DUNCANNON brought up a Message from his Majesty, announcing that his Majesty had renounced his title of reversion to property held in Ireland under attainder, and asking their Lordships to pass a Bill enabling landed pro prietors in Ireland to put in a plea in bar of such rever sionary title. Lord DUNCANNON dwelt in .a low tone of voice on the advantages of the present boon from the Crown, which would facilitate the transfer of property, and increase the rate of purchase. He moved for an Address of thanks to the King, and also moved for leave to bring in a Bill in the spirit of the Message. Both motions were carried. TITHES (IRELAND) BILL. The order of the day having been read for the second read ing of the Tithes (Ireland) Bill, Lord Viscount MELBOURNE rose for the purpose of moving the second reading of this bill. In so doing, their Lordships would naturally expect that he would say some thing respecting its nature and contents. They might also suppose that he would be inclined to overstate the advantages of the measure : that, however, he found it difficult to do. Whether he viewed it with reference to its immediate, or with reference to its remote effects—whether he viewed it with reference to its operation in Ireland alone, or with re ference to its operation on the whole of our mighty em pire, he felt that it was quite impossible for him to speak of the vast consequence of their Lordships' decision that night, in terms too strong and emphatic. Their Lordships were all well aware of the unsatisfactory state of the tithe question in Ireland, as well as in this country.--( Hear.) Their Lordships were all well aware of the distracted state in which, during the last three years and a half, Ireland had been kept by the agitation of that question. Their Lord ships were all well aware that from the beginning of the year 1831, much of the time and attention of that and the _other House of Parliament had been engrossed by this most painful and important subject. Question had follow ed upon question, motion had followed upon motion, com mittee had followed upon committee, bill had followed upon bill—almost the whole attention of Parliament had been bestowed upon the subject, and yet it still remained in the same unsatisfactory state ; and Ireland still remained in the same turbulent and discontented condition. He did not say that much of the existing evil did not arise from the im prudent conduct of individuals ; he did not say that much of it did not arise even from some of the measures of Parliament themselves. But even the very errors which had been com mitted—the very mistakes which had been fallen into—were all proofs of the great difficulties of the question, and ought only to operate to induce their Lordships to look with the greatest impartiality—he hoped he might add with the greatest candour, if not with favour, at the measure now proposed to them with the view of communicating pacification and tran quillity to Ireland. Above all, he hoped that their Lordships would consider the measure with feelings far removed from all party—with feelings far removed from all personal views. He hoped that their Lordships would consider the measure on its own merits alone, without any reference to those by whom it was brought forward, without recrimination or acrimony. He hoped that every one of their Lordships would act in the spirit of the old maxim—Aniicus Plato, amicus Socrates, sect magis ainicus veritas. On a subject of such vast national importance, their Lordships would, lie trusted, pay no respect to any but national principles; and, under any circumstances, lie hoped that justice and reason would triumph, in spite of mistrust or jealousy, or enmity, if it could be supposed that such a feel ing could exist in any of their Lordship's bosoms. He would proceed very shortly to state the nature of the Bill ; he said shortly, because he had no doubt that their Lordships had al ready made themselves well acquainted with the subject. It was well known that the Bill of 1832 made that composition, which was previoitsly voluntary, compulsory. The first and great object of the present measure was to place this burden of the payment of this composition on the owners of the first estate of inheritance; and in order to remunerate them for the risk and loss to which they might be subjected, a deduc tion was to be made of forty per cent., or two-fifths of the amount of the original composition. That was the amount fixed upon on the calculation that, if the tithes were col lected, that would be about the amount which the tithe owner would have. So much for the landlords. Now for the Church. And in the first place he must distinctly deny the error into which many persons seemed to have been betrayed, namely, that it was intended that this deduc tion of 40 per cent. should fall entirely on the incomes of the clergy. The deductions which would be actually made from those incomes would be only 223- per cent. ; 20 per cent. for the increased security of the income, and 24 per cent. for the expense of collection. The clergy would, therefore, receive every year bonds from the Commissioners of Woods and Fo rests for payment at the rate of seventy-seven pounds ten shillings for every hundred pounds of the existing composition. Those bonds would bear the date at which they were issued, and would be received in payment of taxes ; so that they would be equal in value to money. And this every incumbent would receive without trouble or danger or opprobrium. Now, I say, exclaimed the Noble Viscount, that that's not a bad ar rangement.—( A loud laugh from the Opposition benches.) Noble Lords might laugh, but would not some of them like to have a similar arrangement with respect to their rents ? ( Hear, hear.) If, without any ri s k o f b a d tenants, and if without any odium they could h ave t h e security of Government for a similar proportion of their rents, he apprehended that there were many of thei r L or d s hi ps who would not be sorry to close with such a p ropos i t i on (Hear, hear, hear.) He put it to their Lordships to consider what, if the arrangement thus offered to them were neglected, and their Lordships should negative the Bill, would be the state of the clergy in November next, when they would be left to coll ec t th e i r t i t h es in the old manner. This was a very delic a t e top i c, on w hi c h h e did not wish to dwell; but he would just reca ll t h e reco ll e ction of their Lordships to what had passed in debate in that House on a former occasion, in order to give them an inkling of the opinions or others, whose opinions would, probably, have more weight with them _than his. In th e y ear 1832, when a Noble Earl ha d brought for ward a question respecting the state of Ireland, charging his Majesty's Government with a neglect of their duty on that subject, and when it was argued by a Noble Friend of his, a Member of that Government, that the existing state of dis turbance was not new in Ireland, and that it might be hoped ,11. that a more settled state might y e t occur, the answer made by the Noble Duke opposite to those representations ' of a better and more pacific order of things in that country, was, " Let P me see the tithe collected in Ireland, and then I shall believe in something like a return of tranquillity in that country." ~. ~_. He stated this to shos* their Lordships the opinion entertained by the Noble Duke on the difficulty of collecting tithes in Ireland. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, across the table (es we understood his Grace), that he spoke of rent, not of tithes. Lord Viscount MELBOURNE had understood the Noble Duke to have been speaking of tithes. It had been asserted by some persons that the clergy of Ireland generally were hostile to the proposed measure. He disbelieved the asser tion. He had reason to disbelieve it. A circular letter had been sent from London to the clergy of the diocese of Dro more, requiring to know if they would consent that their friends in Parliament should throw out the Tithe Bill, and leave the clergy to the Composition Acts. The answer to that communication was contained in a letter to the Bishop of Dromore, from the clergy of his diocese, a copy of which letter he (Lord Melbourne) held in his hand, and, with their Lord ships' permission, would read it to them. The Earl of RODEN inquired the date of the letter? Lord Viscount MELBOURNE said that the copy was without a date. He supposed that the object of the Noble Earl's inquiry was to intimate that the letter had been written before the alteration had been made in this Bill in the other House of Parliament. He rather thought, however, that that alteration was not calculated to render the clergy less favour able to the measure. This letter was as follows : " My Lord—We the undersigned clergy of the diocese of Dro more beg leave through your Lordship most respectfully to convey to the Lord Primate and the friends of the Irish clergy in London, our opinion as to the course to be adopted by our friends in Parlia ment regarding certain clauses in the amendment of the Bill now in Committee in the House of Commons, to abolish compositions for tithe in Ireland. " In the first place, we have to express our regret that any change should be contemplated in the appropriation of the revenue of the Irish Church, but at the same time if such should be the decision of the Lower House of Parliament, we should also beg leave to express the strong apprehension which we entertain of the disastrous result to the interests of the Irish clergy and the lay pro prietors of tithe in Ireland, if through any collision between the two Houses of Parliament the said Bill substituting a land tax in lieu of composition should be thrown out, and the proprietors of tithe left : to the composition. " In such case we utterly despair of being able to levy our com position of tithes even in this part of Ireland, so comparatively Protestant and civilized, and can only perceive destitution to our selves and families in the hopeless alternative. " We would, therefore, earnestly implore our influential friends in and out of Parliament, to render the said Bill as little onerous on our incomes as shall be found practicable, but not to reject it altogether on account of the proposed alterations in the original Bill. And we would not prefer this request, if we conceived we were thereby compromising any principle which, as ministers of the establishment, we were bound to maintain. " And, in conclusion, we beg leave to declare our confident hope that the Legislature will, in its wisdom, so deal with the tem poralities of the Irish Church, as shall in the end be most condu cive to the peace and welfare of the nation, and our firm and un shaken trust that Divine Providence will ultimately preserve in safety the pure and spiritual religion of the gospel." Signed by fourteen Clergymen, Rectors, and Vicars. (Hear, hear, hear.) It had been thought advisable to intro duce into this bill certain clauses, the tendency of which was in some degree to remodel the tithe composition ; the circum stances under which that composition was made having been of such a nature as to render that re-consideration necessary_ the more especially as the burden of payment was now thrown upon a new set of persons, who had no connexion before with the tithes. Into the details of these clauses it was not, how ever, necessary for him now to enter. He had stated the grounds on which the measure proceeded—grounds which to him appeared to be of the most urgent and pressing nature. Their Lordships must thoroughly feel and understand that if the bill were lost it would be impossible, and quite out of the question for any Government in this country to listen to any appeals which might be made to them from the Protestant clergy of Ireland for any further assistance from the national revenue. He trusted, therefore, that for the sake of the clergy of Ireland —for the sake of the tranquillity of Ireland—for the sake of the safety and prosperity of the whole empire, their Lordships w ou ld agree to h i s mot i on— " That the Bill be now read a second time"—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Archbishop of CASHEL said a few words which were wholly inaudible in the Gallery. The Bishop of DERRY explained to their Lordships the circumstances of his having attended some meetings of the Right Rev. Prelates at Lambeth Palace, and of his having abandoned his first intention to vote against this Bill, and assured their Lordships that he had acted on conscientious principles in changing his mind. He thought their Lordships would agree that he had done right in determining to vote for it when he told them that he had received innumerable com munications from Ireland assuring him that the measure would there be received with the utmost satisfaction, and especially by those unfortunate portions of the Clergy whose situation, from living in the most retired parts of the country, was. the most to be deplored. Their Lordships would see that it was quite impossible he could have any personal motives for the change which he had made in his determination with regard to the measure, because he was glad to say that be possessed no property in tithes whatsoever. The Right Rev. Prelate then read a letter he had addressed to the Archbishop of Canterbury, apprising him of his intention to support the Bill. After every conside ration he could give to the measure to the best of his humble ability, he believed it to be most essentially important to the tranquillity of his distracted country. By the Bill the Clergy would be taken from the most disagreeable situation which could possibly be imposed upon this sacred profession, and be relieved from that which was the cause of their being as sailed with much clamour and evil-speaking, an d ma li ce, and with every sort of feeling contrary to those which their profession ought to excite. He was most sincerely and most honestly impressed with the conviction, that the Clergy, if the Bill were rejected, would be reduced to a state of the most abject poverty and of utter destitution.—( Hear, hear.) He must, therefore, disclaim all part in a measure calculated to reduce his brethren to such a state. He earnestly implored their Lordships not to refuse to read the Bill a recond time, but, by passing it, to attempt to give to distracted Ireland some chance of tranquillity. By so doing they would give to a most worthy class of persons some chance of an independent sub sistence, and at the same time discharge one of the highest duties of their benevolent religion, the promotion of peace and good-will on earth.—( Hear.) Lord ELLENBOROUGH said he was perfectly well aware of the force with which the considerations adduced by the Right Rev. Prelate would address themselves to their Lordships' minds, and that they were calculated to induce many to waver from the course which might involve the pos sibility of such consequences. But if the - Right Rev. Prelate and those who had been in correspondence with him had gone into a full consideration of all the clauses of the Bill, and had calculated all its effects, and had still advocated its adoption, even then he thought their Lordships would agree with him in thinking that It was Their poverty and not their will consented." He thought, however, that they could only have examined one portion of the measure, or only have regarded it in one por tion of its bearings. He could conceive a clergy, when re duced to the state of the clergy of Ireland, consenting to all their property being transferred to the state, and to becoming stipendiaries instead of proprietors. He could imagine them, even upon those terms, consenting to receive three-fifths of their incomes at the expense of abandoning the other two fifths ; but this he could not conceive, that any earthly con sideration should induce them to consent to any measure which held out the prospect of reimbursing the people of England and Scotland for the advances made under the measure out of funds sacredly and solemnly pledged by Parliament to purposes most essential to the maintenance of the Church of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Except by the Perpetuity Fund, they had the assurance of the best authorities that there were no means of meeting the expenses necessary to the support of the Church. Without the very buildings themselves must fall into ruin.—( Hear.) — Under . such circumstances as these, then, he thought that no Clergy would suffer that fund to be applied to other purposes, or to make what the Noble Viscount had called a " good ar rangement," but under which the Church was left to destruc tion.—( Hear.) To do it would be sacrilege.—( Hear. ) He denied that such a measure was a measure of religion and peace, as the Right Rev. Prelate had described it, or that it went to remove what was regarded by the opponents of tithes as their real grievance.--( Hear, hear.) It did not destroy tithe.—(Hear, hear.) It did not diminish by one day the con tinuance of tithe. It did not diminish the number of tithe payers. On the contrary, it increased them by adding to them the landlords who had been heretofore exempt, while at the same time it increased all the odium of collection. It was true they were to be called rent, and to be paid to the land lord and not to the clergy. But then, from all their Lord ships had ever heard from those to whom this measure Was a concession, the objection was to the principle, and not to the name. They were told that A rose By any other name would smell as sweet." He feared that the Right Rev. Prelate who last addressed their Lordships, and those Clergy who had called upon him to support the measure, would find too that there was as little in a name on the other side of the question, and that tithe by any other name would be as rank in the nostrils of hose who had been once taught that by resistance to the law hey could have the law abrogated. He should not further remark upon the speech of the Right Reverend Prelate, excepting to observe that this was the first occasion upon which any Member of their Lordship's House had deemed it convenient to come down and make a statement as to any communications which had taken place out of the House with respect to the vote to be given in it.—( Hear, and a laugh. ) The practice was quite new ; and if adopted generally by their Lordships, he thought it mus t t en d t o ve ry great incon venience indeed.—( Hear, hear.)—He contended that this measure was not calculated to lead to the pacification of Ire land. It had nothing in common with the manners or the principles which his Majesty's Government had for the last three years advanced as being necessary to the pacification of Ireland. There had been no change whatever in the course so pursued until the end of the month of June this year. Up to that period the object of the Crown. a s declared by the Government with regard to this question, had been uni formly the same. Every measure which had been adopted, every report which had been made, eve!), speech from the Throne, and every speech from a Minister in which any measures had been introduced, had all proceeded upon the principle that a rent charge was to be established with a view to redemption—(Cheers) —which would have led ultimately to an independent provision for the Clergy. —(Cheers.)—That was the principle which had always been recognized as indispensable to the maintenance of the Clergy and of the Church in the position in which alone they could be useful. That principle was now abandoned.—(Cheers.)—lt had, not been abandoned in con sequence of any difference which had arisen in the question ; it was abandoned from the differences which had arisen in the Cabinet.—(Cheers.) From this had arisen all the changes which had been going on from day to day, from the changes THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, AUGUST 12, 1834, which had also been going on in the Cabinet, from the dis putes which had been going on between the members of the Government—(Cheers)—and which had ended in the aban donment of all their former principles by those who, if they were ever pledged to any thing as statesmen, were pledged to the Reports of 1832, to the principles there announced, and to the series of measures which had been founded upon them. The Noble Baron then referred to Mr. Littleton's resolution of the 20th of February, and to the speeches from the Throne upon the subject. The Noble Baron went through the heads of the measure proposed at the beginning of the session, and said that that was a measure which would have satisfied the friends of the Church, and have produced tranquillity in Ire land. He then contrasted the provisions of the present mea sure with those of the former, and contended that there was no single feature of resemblance between them. By the first the law was to be vindicated, and the whole power of the Crown was to be put forth to render the law more respected. That was a good principle. But in the present measure it was no longer to be found. Against the landlord alone was it to be applied. With him was to be left the whole difficulty of car rying the law into execution. Was this a measure from which the peace of Ireland was to be expected? He believed that it did not afford a chance of pacification, but, on the contrary, laid the foundation of more deadly animosity and feuds than had ever yet existed. The measure was indeed to vindicate the law as regarded 3-sths of the tithes, but it gave the other 2-sths as a premium for its violation. He was willing to do all that was just and generous towards the clergy of Ireland, but he did not think that the people of England and Scotland ought to be called on to pay for a measure of this description. He did not believe that the landlords would derive that advantage from the measures which had been stated, but if they were sure of doing so to the full amount o f t h e f orty per c en t., h e thought to o well of the class who constituted the Irish land lords to believe they would willingly accept such a bribe. He had known many of them, and had spent the most agreeable portions of his life amongst them. He had admired their candour, their frankness, and their generosity, in addition to all those personal qualities which made them the most agree able members of society, wherever they were found. Knowing them as he had done, he could not and he would not think such men capable of consenting to share the purse which they saw the robber take from the poor clergyman of the Pro testant church, while they saw the priesthood of the Roman Catholic religion freely supported by its members.—( Cheers.) He did not believe that those among their Lordships who were Irish landlords would consent to such a measure, or that the House was justified in passing it. In rejecting it at once, there was no difficulty which could not easily be met. But if they did not reject it on the second reading, how could they deal with it in a Committee ? It was a money Bill. They could not alter a clause of it with propriety, and certainly none with success. If the Government chose to substitute in its place the Bill of February last, he would be prepared to accept it. But of this Bill they could make nothing. If they went into Committee, what could they do? They could not— even if the objections he had before stated did not exist—they could not at this period of the year hope to frame an entirely new system for the commutation of tithes, which should be free from the objections of the present measure. Even if they should not be defeated by time, as they should, there was another place in which that objection would be doubly fatal. The House of Commons would certainly then say with justice, as it did t h e ot h er day of another measure, that there was not time for them to bestow due attention upon alterations so important, and therefore would refuse their concurrence. Why, then, the only course he saw open was that of rejecting the motion for the second reading, and leaving his Majesty's Government to consider what was due to all interests in Ire land, and then to introduce at a very early period such a mea sure as would meet the justice of the case to H ear . ) He thought that the Government themselves would not be unwilling to have more time to look again into the details of this measure, and reconsider its principles in all their bearings. They should recollect that it was only the thought of three weeks, that it had been put together piecemeal, and that in every part it varied from the measure which had been adopted by his Majesty's Ministers, and which they had had under their consideration for i the best part of three years.— (Hear, hear.) The delay might perhaps le thought incon venient, and it might be said that the time had arrived when this question should be permanently settled. This measure would, he admitted, effect an apparent settlement of the question ; but he denied that such a settlement of it could be permanent, and therefore it was that he said, whatever inconvenience delay might occasion, and how ever annoying the rejection of the Bill at this par ticular moment might be, it would be better to submit to such an alternative in order to ensure the permanent tran quillity of Ireland by taking time to prepare a good practical and well-considered measure, than to endanger that object by passing a Bill like that which now lay upon their Lord ships' table. Hear.) He felt that their Lordships were placed in a situation of great difficulty. Much was expected of them by the country, and he trusted that much would be done by them. He asked their Lordships last year whether, in consenting to violate the principles of justice as they did in the case of the Church Temporalities Bill, they would attain by their submission any good object? The present measure was a proof that they had not. They had consented to pass the Church Temporalities Bill on the representation that it would be a final measure, but was that the case ? They were then told that if they gave their sanction to that measure they would put a stop to all further demands ; but what was it that they were now told by a Member of his Majesty's Government ? Why, that the Church Temporalities Bill was never intended as a final measure ; that it merely laid down principles upon which larger demands were to be made.—( Hear.) Under these circumstances he could not hesitate as to the course which he ought to adopt, at the same time that he felt the full force of the peculiar situation in which their Lordships were placed. The change which had taken place in the constitution of the other branch of the Legislature under the Reform Bill had rendered their Lordships the only real representatives of the Protestant Church of Ireland. That change, too, violated the pledge under which emancipation was granted, for it was distinctly understood by every one of their Lordships who voted in favour of the claims of the Roman Catholics that the representation of Ireland should remain as it then stood.—. (Hear.) The representation of Ireland had, however, been al tered ; the elective franchise had been placed in the hands of those classes amongst whom dissent prevailed, and the result was as he had stated, that their Lordships alone were to be looked upon as the representatives in Parliament of the reli gion of the Protestant Church in that country.—( Hear.) That House had, th ere f ore, a solemn and an awful duty to per form, and it w as ex p ecte d o f their Lordships by the Protestant people of both count r i es t h at the i r church should be preserve d from the dange r w hi c h now threatened it. Their Lordships should consider why it was that the people . of England were opposed to the Catholic religion. They did not fear conver sion from their own faith, or that the Catholic Church could ever be established in this country. Oh, no, they had no such fears ; but what they felt was, that it was inimical to the Pro testant Church of Ireland.--( Hear, hear, hear.) He regret ted to say that th e measure now under their Lordships' consi deration fulfilled the worst forbodings in which he or any of the friends of the Protestant religion had indulged, and there fore it was that he felt himself bound in duty to call upon their Lordships to reject this Bill by moving that it be read a second time this day six months.--( Hear.) The Marquis of L ANSD 0 WNE admitted that the mea sure involved consequences the most important. It embraced two objects, namely, the tranquillity of Ireland, and the secu rity and preservation of the Church Establishment of that country. Feeling thi s , h e h ad listened with deep attention te the speech of the Noble Baron who had just sat down in order to discover if the Noble Baron should be able to ad duce any solid reason for shaking the determination to which he had come, not only with respect to th e principles of the Bill, but the particular shape i n w hi c h it presented itself before their Lordships' House. Nothing, however, had fallen from the Noble Baron which could in the least dis turb the conclusion at which he had arrived, and therefore he was bound to give a vote of assent to the motion for the second reading of a measure which had his entire con currence.—( Hear, hear.) He was glad to find that the Noble Baron thought not only that it would be perilous to delay the final settlement of this question, but that the proceedings of his Majesty's Government deserved his ap probation. It would now seem that the Noble Baron re garded their conduct as perfectly consistent and proper, for hiS present ground of opposition was that, forsooth, they had departed from the consistent, laudable, and fir.'n course which they had pursued for the last three years.---( Hear, hear, hear.) There was, however, nothing in either the prin ciple or the details of this measure which was in the smallest degree inconsistent with the plan which his Majesty's Government had originally laid down for their own guidance, except that it would effect a more prompt con clusion than any which had previously been proposed. But what was the constant and unvarying prayer of every peti tion which had been presented from the people of Ireland to either his Majesty's Government or Parliament on this sub ject ? Was it not that they should adopt such a measure as would throw the burden of the support of the Church of Ire land upon the shoulders of the landlords of that country?— (Hear, hear.) No meas ure , h e wou ld venture to say, could be effectual which did not go this length ; and, therefore, he cautioned them against the consequences of rejecting the Bill now under their Lordships' consideration. He would look at all the circumstances, whether before the measure or after—whether prior to the rebellion, or subsequent to that period—which had rendered tithes insecure ; and, having done so, he had no hesitation in saying that the evils of the system had arisen from levying tithes in detail from the Door, between whom and the clergy there was no communion. But what would be the effect of rejecting this Bill ? Why, it would reduce the Irish Church to a stipendiary condi tion, and he would wish the Noble Baron joy at the situa ion in which he had placed it. By this measure it would tave the best security possible for the payment of its reve it would have the security of the land itself, and there fore it was absurd to say that its position would not be bet tered by the change. He admitted that compulsion might be applied to enforce the payment of tithes, w hi c h would not be justifiable in any other case, and this he contended was the principle on which Mr. Goulbourn's Act proceeded. The provisions of that Act were more flagrantly unjust than anything he found in the present Bill; and could any one suppose that the system of general compulsion embodied in Mr. Stanley's Bill of last year would stop short there ? Mr. Stanley made land the basis of the settlement, and so did this Bill, and therefore it was clear that the Government had not abandoned their original intention.—( Hear, hear.) The ground rent or land tax could, at any time the Par liament so willed it, be converted into money or land, and this he thought was making something like a progress towards the plan of which the Noble Baron spoke in such high terms of commendation. It should be recollected that there was a strong objection to having a large quantity of land thrown into mortmain ; but suppose the tithe were converted into money, and placed in the funds, would that course save the nues, titheowner from loss ? Looking at the present state of the finds it clearly would not, and therefore the only expedient that remained for bringing the question to a speedy and at the same time an effectual adjustment, was that which the Government had taken, namely, converting tithe into a quit rent or permanent charge upon the land. Indeed in so far no alteration whatever had been made in the principle laid down in the original plan, for it had always been the inten tion of the Government to establish a system of quit rent or land tax, to be paid, not by the occupying tenant, but by the proprietor of the soil. The compulsion necessarily employed to effect this object, and he disliked that compulsion as much as any body, would do that in one year which could not other wise be accomplished in five. It would cut off all those causes of irritation which at present existed, and, instead of bringing the lower classes and the Protestant Clergy into collision, it would restore the latter to the influence which they ought and did, in many parts of Ireland, notwith standing the difference of religion, possess amongst the people. This was the great object of the Bill, and he would ask them whether it was doing nothing to get rid of such an evil. Lord EL LENBOROUGH—The evil is not got rid of, but only transferred from the Clergyman to the landlord. The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE—Did the Noble Baron mean to say, after the landlord had been released to the ex tent of forty per cent., that the state of things would be no better than at present ? When the poor were no longer irri tated by paying their tithes to the clergy the change must operate beneficially for the tranquillity of the country, and surely the security of the land was infinitely to be preferred to any other that could be given, particularly as the charge in lieu of tithes would take precedence of all other incumbrances whatsoever upon the land.—( Hear.) But before they rejected this Bill they should duly consider what the clergy, would lose and what they would gain by it. It had been said that tithe was valuable property ; but was that really the case? Every one of their Lordships who knew anything of Ireland must be aware that while other property rose six and seven years' pur chase in value, tithes had remained stationary, if they had not depreciated. Landed property sold at twenty-four and twenty five years' purchase, while the a verage va l ue ol if t i t h es was the si x t een ; and taking even that rate, the interest of the money which they would bring if invested in the Funds, would not return as much to the clergy as the amount of the rent charge to be created under this measure.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Baron had said that there would not be left even a sufficient sum to keep up the fabric of the Church, but when he made this statement he spoke in ignorance of the real state of the matter. Lord EL LENBORO UGH assured the Noble Marquis that helves quite mistaken. The Marquis of L ANSD 0 WNE contended that he was not, and said that without taking the Perpetuity Fund at all into account, there would be an abundant surplus to apply to wards the maintenance of the fabric of the Church. By this Bill the Clergy would exchange a bad security for a good one, and even though their incomesnnight ba reduced it cer tainly would be insured, which he thought ought to be an ob ject of desire with them. They should recollect that the land owner wits subject to the compulsory provisions of the measure as well as they, and he did not think it too much to oblige both parties to sacrifice some little to promote the tranquillity of the country. They should bear in mind the liberality which Par liament had displayed in deducting from them only 20 per cent. ; but in this instance the House of Commons had acted wisely, because it had acted generously. The boon which this Bill gave them would not be offered them again if it were now rejected, and, therefore, he hoped their Lordships would not only fulfil the just expectations of the people, but show their willingness to act in concert with the other House of Parlia ment, which was fully entitled to the gratitude of the Irish nation for the liberal course it took in this instance. He had considered the measure not only as a Minister of the Crown but as an Irish landlord, and, approving of it in whatever point of view he looked at it, he must vote in support of the second reading. The Earl of WINCHIL SE A, who was not very distinctly heard in the gallery, said that if the Noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government bad any regard for the peace of Ireland, if he had any respect for the clergy and landlords of that country, he would do well implicitly to follow the ad vice which the Noble Baron on that side of the House had given him. That advice was that the Noble Viscount should adopt that which had once been his own plan, the plan of all his colleagues in office, and thereby redeem his own character and his honour as the First Minister of the Crown, which must otherwise suffer materially. Restoring this Bill to the shape in which Mr. Stanley left it would be no more than an act of consistency. Redemption by means of commutation was the principle of Mr. Stanley's measure, but by this Bill tithe was made perpetual, there being no clause in it to effect redemption. He contended that it would not allay a particle of irritation, and that the Roman Catholics would be eqUally dissatisfied whether they paid their tithe into the hands of the landlord or the clergyman. He must say that such a measure was a gross act of injustice and a most dangerous violation of the rights of property. He would ask who had occasioned the alterations that had been made in the Bill on the table ? Their Lordships and the country might be assured that for every concession that was made in the quarter he alluded to they would be called upon to go further until they destroyed all the institutions of the country. He would tell the landlords 'gf Ireland that the same agitation that now exist e d aga i nst the payment of tithes to the Clergy, would exist amongst the Catholic tenantry against paying it in the form proposed by the Bill. He con tended that before the Government brought forward a Irma ' sure like the present, they ought to have enforced the pay ment of tithes, and have asserted the authority of the law. He admitted that there were many difficulties as to seizing the cattle in the possession of the tenantry, but he thought that ar rangements might be made. If their Lordships agreed to the measure, which he trusted they would not, they would sacrifice the interests of the Clergy to those who trampled on the law; and at the same time it never would produce peace in that dis tracted country. He trusted that their Lordships would act with firmness on this subject, and he was sure they would not be intimidated from doing their duty on that question. He implored them to consider the important and responsible duties they had to perform in the stations in which God had been pleased to place them as Legislators over this great country. The eyes of the whole empire were turned on them, and no trifling personal considerati ons s h ou ld we i g h w i th them, but they should- preserve that strict line of duty to their Sovereign and country which their consciences dictated. In conclusion, he called upon the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) to act consist ently, and proceed with that plan which had received the ap probation of his Majesty's Government, and which had been submitted by them to the other House, and not attempt to en force the measure in its altered state. Lord DUNCANNON agreed with the Noble Earl that it was a juncture in which they were called upon to act wis ely. In considering this question it would be idle to attempt to disguise from themselves the fact, that the tithes could not contiuue to be received in Ireland without blood shed and disorder. The clergy in Ireland admitted that they paid 20 per cent. for the collection of the tithes, and yet the Noble Baron complained that this measure, which made Church property more secure, was a sacrifice of that pro perty. From his own residence in Ireland, he (Lord Dun cannon) knew that even in quieter times than the present, the collection of tithes in Ireland cost more than 20 per cent. By the former Bill, whieh gave the power of redemp tion, that redemption would only take place in five years, and then the purchase was to be converted into land, to which conversion he had an insuperable objection. One of the greatest advantages of the proposed Bill was, that it was one to which the peasantry of Ireland would readily agree. There was a difference as regarded tithes between England and Ireland. In England the persons who paid it were possessed of some capital, whilst in Ireland it was paid by the very lowest of the peasantry, and paid, too, to a clergyman of an opposite creed. Even within the last two or three days instances of the difficulty of collec tion were furnished, and some had been adduced in the other House. An instance occurred in Cork where two clergymen, with all the power of the military and police, failed in collecting it. This would show what was likely to be the consequence of rejecting the Bill be fore them. In one of these cases, though the clergy man had the assistance of the military and police for several days he confessed he was unable to enforce his claim. The peasantry, aware of the marching of the troops locked up their cattle; and even when the attempt was made at night, the dogs gave the alarm, and put them on their guard. By passing this Bill their Lordships would give great satisfaction to the people of Ireland, for whose benefit, it would be the first time either in that or the other House that legisla tive enactments were made. On all other occasions of legis lation the peasantry were unfavourably dealt with, though not intentionally so. This was the first act in favour of the Irish peasantry, and it would be received by that peasantry_with gratitude. Before their Lordships would resolve upon reject ing this measure, they should consider the st a t e i n w hi c h , b y such rejection, they would place the clergy of Ireland. When the Noble Earl who had last addressed them called upon the House to do their duty, it would be well if he considered the position in which they would pl ace th e c l ergy of Ireland if they rejected this Bill. It appeared as if the general feeling of the clergy of Ireland was in favour of some such measure ; at least it appeared to be favourable in the south of Ireland. That it was not so in other parts may be owing to the proceedings of a Right Reverend Prelate, who was hostile to the measure__ ( Hear, hear.) Those who opposed the Bill were the real enemies of the clergy, and, by rejecting it, would place them in the position of those whose recent failure in the collection of tithes he had just instanced. They would be foiled in every effort to collect what they were justly entitled to ; and after considerable expense, hazard, and labour, they would not be able to recover a single shilling. He had one observa tion to make as to the alteration that had been made in the Bill. It was said that but for the influence of Mr. O'Connell tire measure would not have been brought forward in its pre sent shape. He begged to ask, were their Lordships pre pared to declare that because a measure had the approval of the Hon. Member for Dublin, they ought for that sole reason, however g ood such me asure m i ght be, to reject it ?—(Hear, hear.) Yet he had he ar d l anguage used which appeared to him to import something very similar. The Duke of CUMBE RL A ND—Did Lord Althorp sup port the alteration ? Lord DUNCANNON admitted that the Noble Lord did not—( Cheers from the Opposition side)—but he must add that fie did not regret that the Noble Lord failed in his oppo sition on that occasion.---( Laughter and counter cheers.) He was persuaded that the only chance of tranquillity for Ireland was in taking away the collection of tithes from the occupying tenant, and collecting them from the landlord. He would not go the length of saying that tithe was not to be recovered by putting in force the existing laws, but, on the other hand, he was confident that if such a course were persevered in, the result would be fields of bloodshed, and the most dreadful suf fering.—(Hear, h ear .) Every observation which he had made for the last few years, compelled him to come to that conclusion. The Noble Bariln seemed to have forgotten that the on l y a l terat i on wh i ch had been made in the measure was this—that, whereas, by the Bill as originally intro duced, the landlords were to take on themselves the collec tion of tithes in five years, and in the present Bill they were to do so immediately. When he said he was glad his Noble Friend in the other House had been compelled to give way on the subject, he must also remark that he was not sur prised at such a proposition having been made ; if it had been brought forward by the Hon. Member for Dublin, he be lieved it would have been by some other individual. His Noble Friend doubtless thought it right to support the Bill as it was originally, introduced to the House of Commons, but when he found that every Irish Member who was present— The Duke of CUMBERLAND (we believe) said " No." Lord DUNC A NNON—If not every Irish landlord, nearly every Irish landlord, supported the proposition. He admitted that there, perhaps, was not a full House on that occasion.— ( A laugh.) He would say, then, that when it was found that nearly every Irish landlord supported the proposal, there was at once a strong justification of its adoption. For himself, he felt confident that no other means would have given a chance of establishing peace or tranquillity. In conclusion, he begged to say that he concurred with the Noble Lord who had last spoken, in feeling that their Lordships were now called on to perform a most important duty, which they should discharge without fear, and conscientiously ; but he entirely differed from that Noble Lord in what he considered their Lordships' duty, on the present occasion, to be.--( Hear, hear.) Viscount BERESFORD and the Earl of MANSFIELD FORe several Noble Lords called for the Noble Earl, but he at last gave way. Lord BERE SFORD said he had only a few observations to offer to their Lordships, or he would not have intruded upon their attention. The Noble Lord who had spoken last had insinuated that the right Rev. Prelate, who was Primate of all Ireland, had used his exertions at a meeting held lately, to influence the Right Rev. Prelates to vote against the pre sent Bill. Now, knowing that distinguished individual inti mately, and knowing what were his feeling and sentiments on this occasion, he must say that the Noble Lord had repre sented what was most unfounded.—(Hear.) He felt so con fident of this, that he begged to call on a Right Rev Pre late, whom he saw now in his place, who was present a t t h at meeting, and who, he b e li eve d , was favourable to the Bill be fore their Lordships to state whether anything took place at the meeting calculated to induce him to give a vote contrary to his opinion or inclination ?—( Hear.) That meeting was assembled for the purpose of considering what was the best thing to be done for the Protestant Clergy of Ireland.-- He hoped the Noble Lord would state his authority for insi nuating that the object of the assembly was an improper one. Lord D UNC ANN ON said he was not much practised in addressing their Lordships, and, perhaps, he had used a stronger impression than was justifiable. What he intended to say was that the Right Rev. Prelate had addressed the Clergy of Ireland on the subject, not that he had endeavoured impro perly to influence their votes.—_( hear, hear. ) The Bishop of DERRY said, having been alluded to, he hoped he would be allowed to say a few words in reply. He certainly attended the meeting ( to which th e N o b le Lord had adverted, and h e t oo k particular pains to master the feeling which prevailed. The Noble Lord had called on him to de clare, whether any attempt was made to influence the conduct of individuals with regard to the Bill now before their Lord ships ; he (the Bishop of Derry) must answer, that not one word was used at that place calculated to have that effect.— (Hear, hear.) If any such attempt had been made, he hoped and trusted he had manliness and independence enough, never theless, to assert his own opinions.—( Hear.) With regard to his change of sentiments, if such change was to be visited with censure, he hardly knew who would escape ; opinions on political questions being founded on the nature of the infor mation obtained in connection with those questions—if the na ture of the information varied, the opinions changed of course. Hear.) He would repeat, that no influence was exercised by the Right Reverend Prelate ; and he would' say, further, that he believed him to be quite incapable of any act that would not stand the scrutiny of the most searching ordeal.— (Hear, hear.) The Bishop of MEATH made a few remarks, which were not distinctly heard. We understood him to say that the 20 per cent. which the Noble Lord had calculated would do so much good, must come from England and Scotland, and there was no security that it would not be withheld. The Bishop of DERRY rose amidst cries of " Spoke, spoke !" He desired only to explain. It would appear, from what had taken place, that he had changed his opinion on the subject of composition ; this he wished to deny. The Earl of MANSFIELD said this Bill was a departure from the principle of justice, which should be observed in treating with the possessors of any property.—( Hear, hear.) If they departed from that principle in the present measure, he feared it would lead to an attack on all property that was similarly situated, and eventually to an attack on all property, whatever its nature might be. The converting of the amount of tithes that belonged to the clergy into a rent charge, would no doubt have its advantages ; the collection was at present inconvenient and difficult on account of the number of the individuals from whom the collection had to be made, and the smallness of the sums to be collected ; he admitted that some sacrifice must be expected on this account. But as to the amount of the deduction, he thought that was questionable. With reference to this part of the subject, he wished to understand whether the deduction was proposed, owing to the difficulty of collecting, that being the result of the disturbed state of the country ; because he should say, that there would be an in justice in thus making a deduction owing to the difficulty of the collection. The State was bound to afford protection to the property of the subject, who contributed to the support of the State in order that he might secure that protection. If, how ever, the protection to which he was entitled was not afforded him, that could not be made an argument for calling on him to sacrifice his property. Were it so, the Government would take advantage of their own wrong.—( Cheers from the op position.) He would not say, for he did not think that his Majesty's Government had encouraged the disturbances which unhappily had existence in Ireland, but the principle applied to those who had agitated the country, and brought it into its present state.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry that this bill would operate as a premium on agitation.—( Opp os i t i on cheers.) He, therefore, p u t i t to their Lordships as a matter for deep consideration, whether the proposed deduction from the amount of tithes was in itself fair and reasonable. On comparing the former bill with the present, he found that in the latter this first deduction was the same, but there was a further deduction of another fifth in favour of the landlord ; thus instead of a reduction of one-fifth to four-fifths to the tithe-owner, he was now to get only 3-sths. The principle of division was 9-10ths to the landlowner, and 1-10th to the clergy ; that being the case the clergy could not claim any portion of the 9-10ths. Neither on the other hand, had the landowner any right to the 1-10th, unless he obtained it by purchase, and gave an equivalent for it. On what principle, then, he would ask, would they make a reduction of 1-10th in favour of the landlord? He knew it was said that this deduction was not clearly a deduction from the clergy, and that it was offered to the landowner as a bonus to induce him to take on himself the collection. When he reflected that a specific sum was to come from the Consoli dated Fund, and that it would come therefore from the pockets of the people of Scotland and England, he feared that this was an allowance which would not continue.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If it did, however, he feared it would belie the ex pectations of one who had very much interested himself in this Bill.--( Opposition cheers.) He could not forget it had been the avowed object of some individuals that tithes should be di vided into thirds; one third to be applied to the payment of the priests of every sect ; the other third to the Catholics ; and the remaining third to be appropriated to civil purposes. He must say, he much feared that if this Bill failed in its operation, the system to which he had just alluded would be thereby considerably advanced.—(Loud cheers.) He knew it would put the clergy to great inconveniences to reject this Bill, but he should nevertheless discharge what he con ceived to be his duty in opposing it.—( Hear.) Should a case of necessity arise, they must come to Parliament for ano ther grant; and notwithstanding that such grants were ob jectionable, he trusted they would obtain, under the peculiar circumstances, the consideration and respect from Parliament to which they were entitled. The situation of the clergy, however, would be in some measure improved by the Bill which would come into operation in November next. He should be happy, could he entertain any hopes of a satisfactory arrangement, as regarded the present measure. He entertained no hostile disposition, no feeling of prejudice, against any pro position that might be submitted, which should be satisfactory to the clergy, and fair to all parties. But he would say, that a satisfactory arrangement of this question had been a great deal impeded by the conduct, the weakness, and errors, and some thing more than errors of the Administration.—( Opposition cheers.) Though there always was a resistance to tithes, there was not an effectual combination against them till some time after the change of Administration which took place in 1830. —( Hear, hear.) He could not but think that a great deal of what had since taken place, was owing, amongst other things, to the non -renewal of the Combination Act, confessed by themselves to be unnecessary—( Hear, hear)—and to the un fortunate use of the word " extinction" of tithe ; which, al though it was explained in a manner that was perfectly intelli gible in this House, certainly conveyed an erroneous impres sion to the people of Ireland ; and some vague allusions in the Speech from the Throne, confirmed that wrong impression.— ( Hear.) He was well aware of the fact of these opportunities to excite unjustifiable expectations having been taken ad vantage of by those who were deeply interested in propa gating such erroneous notions. He might allude also to a prosecution which was commenced with muc h eagerness, and which exhibited as much the spirit of oppression as it bore evi dence to a want of moral courage in not attacking the real offender.—( Hear, hear.) Nor should he omit enutnerating the act of conferring on the individual to whom he had alluded a patent of precedence.—( Hear, hear.) This had been de fended as an act f o policy and justice ; h e considered it a pre mium to agitation.—( Cheers.) What could the Protestant of Ireland think of the support his, Majesty's Government would give to his rights in tithes and other property, when he heard it stated that a Magistrate who had presided at a tithe meeting was retained in th e commission of the peace ? (Cheers. ) A Right Hon. Gentleman had seceded from the Cabinet, on the ground that the measures in the contempla tion of the Government would affect the security of the Church property. He differed from that Right Hon. Gentleman in some very essential particulars. He knew that the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken what he no doubt considered a glorious part in the promotion of those measures which had been passed by an artificial decision of their Lordship's House. Remembering that the Right Hon. Gentleman had supported that Bill, of which he would now speak with respect, it having received the sanction of Parliament to become the law of the land, but of which he must say that he viewed it at the time as an act of spoliation—( Hear, hear)— remembering this, he certainly heard of the secession of the Right Hon. Gentleman with surprise. Th e N o bl e E ar l t h en at t h e h f the vv vernment might well have exclaimed on that ocea-' . Hath he so long held ou t with me unfired Tardy . however, And as sto was h the con tion the Right 1 to ps e now for breath ?" „ on , Gent e ' t, sn i ft , vi man came to, he (the E ar l o f M ans fi e ld) was glad o ld 01- It was a useful lesson—( Hear, hear)—for none c what Jet t better than the Right Hon. Gentleman must knew , that CO° the intentions of the Government. When he saw that sa w tP mission of which they had heard so much, --whe n GOV", Bill, and recollected the secession of the Right llo' ina dd ; man, he must doubt all the professions that bad been. R.. Noble Lords opposite, of attachment to the Church o f o f land.—( Cheering.) He did not charge the mer e° Majesty's Government with shaping their measures 05 0 s. lash view of keeping themselves in it proper that Noble Lords, sitting on his side of the t bel should have it attributed to them, as it had been,. w ,,, h aio l :, opposition was dictated by feelings of disappointed al " ; but'' , —(Cheering.) He denied the justice of the charrds, they had so unworthy, so base a feeling in their ni t n,„„ could -promise them a gratification greater than of e , re derive from seeing the degraded state in which " os i t icip./ political adversaries ?—( Much cheering from the P 11 1 3 ,( 00 1 ,' , Did they know how low they stood in public opin ie 4 er ing I bear)—in public opinion, which, he would say- 11 ' eh oiet e , o this respect from the Noble Earl ( Earl Grey)- --- r 0 0. 1 , 1 place, nor did n . e e 00 than the " spirit of the age," did regulate, ae"ministet,lle regulate, public men.—(Loud cheers from the refounded benches.) Public opinion was the opinion of the ~ portion of the community, and was generall);., f e cal' in truth. Of such persons, exercising their reason,3bs, t here ties with credit to themselves and advantage to o t a r p rop" did not exist in any country in the world so grea t , e Gore tion as in this. By that opinion the conduct of the op en 0 1 1 ment should be regulated. And if they won', their eyes to conviction—if they did but know isha' hc d wn' tr, of them, not by their enemies, but by those who w ls is i t hetiv' well—if they did but know of the existence of th e e date r blast which proceeded from the burning embers of rot° bation of the effect of their acts, they would surely' en to repair the errors into which they had fallen. ' 1 ; 1 00 sures had been unfortunate : he thought them dis e ` l he b e i ; He begged them to reconsider this subject, wh ich, rlo rib% lieved, involved other objectionable measures, and, o ftb e " opinion. Their Lordships, so far as he could jilag`., from what he saw, would reject the Bill no w before cl, O They would not be deterred from the performanc e eea the duty. The absurd apprehension of a collision beta' ) T te two Houses of Parliament had vanished.—( Hear, hea r i p would act according to the best of their judgment, a nd % $ll/l C ' formity with the . prayers of those numerous petition e peo; were lying on their Lordships' table, and in which T lig iao' tioners declared their attachment to the Church in and Ireland. He hoped that the expression of t hese a s w ell meats would have an effect on his Majesty's Ministers, 5 1 0 t as on their Lordships. He should give a conscientious did to reject the Bill ; and with but one regret; whi ch j a 'ect 1° ) he had been carried away by the interest of the su b Ater: trespass so long on their Lordships' indulgence.—(L% ties" The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he Nse fic sc , 3 ; pass upon th e i r L or d s hi p ' s t i me for a short space . , principally moved to do so by the importance of the Sa Erado" but also s omew h at b y t h e tone adopted by the Noble nhjert ;, had just sat d own , w h o b ad scarcely dealt with the s rots! that cal m , so b er , an d di spassionate spirit which its inted apt' the country d eman d e d , and which had been preserved of the the Noble E ar l' s r i s i ng b y t h e speeches on both sides t he / 3 ;., question: Th e N o bl e B aron who first spoke against both/ ( Lord Ell en b oroug h) , h ad throughout what—although ar t 0 , fered from the sent i ments i t contained—except in that Po.hie! it in whi c h hi s L or d s hi p paid a just tribute to the coursieirdstee: had for th e l as t t h ree years governed his Majesty's ly in respect of the Irish Church, a tribute which , ,P Soo' looking t o th e tact i cs of debate, it was not politic in the heart .e fo al Baron to pay, b u t w hi c h , as " from the fullness of th the mouth s p ea k et h , " h e had not been able to re f ra in e Paying—(Laughter) —that Noble Baron he said ha d, t hil out what he a c k now l e d ge d to b e his able and manlYd s'neeceerp adopted a t one ca l m l y deliberative and su it e d to the d totbe portance of this question, in a national point of view,n e i hJa s near, the very near interest of the highest nature re ly 0 6 involved in the result of this question. It was not m e w e 5 l ; stability of the Irish Church which was involved, bu t Itis' istence, so to speak, and certainly the subsistence of the,..ei h' Protestant Clergy. Upon such a subject, theregnsneecil should have thought, till he had heard the last that had been addressed to their Lordships, it wa_ s l i n g to sible for a n y man o f sound judgment or right fe e pail have suff ere d hi mse lf to b e carried away by — mere _ it3 0 passion, and to have chosen—rather than discuss the nn l ion it a difficult question it mus t be admitted, o f a g rave W 0 ; 0 04 was allowed on all hands, of a question involving th e 4 ,110' interests of a large portion of a numerous body of our ' ca ning subjects, and of a great public institution, of a questiol•pet to for calm deliberative attention—by, avoiding the sultl - erp orY have digressed into every other topic a ransacked re a . ol o could supply from mere personal hostility towards his 31 ) 0 1 0 , Ministers and their late colleagues, exceeded any ro tl e l° had ever formed of the lengths to which party animosity be carry individuals, and had disappointed the expectotTact° had been induced - to entertain from the previous con oia l the Noble E ar l, o f w h at hi s course would on such an L ee p have been. Without any want o f respect f or t h e Nobl e ittell —indeed with th e most ent i re respect, he must be per uj 'hinl to deviate from his example, and abstain from following U ldy into those party and personal topics, so far as he possibly ° h ie! , into which h e h a d mean d ered far from the subject v'ie really requi re d th e i r attent i on. He proposed then bri efly' to do two things first, to ca ll t h e i r Lordships' attentitobaco the merits o f t h e rea l question, and next, to intrea , in mercy to the clergy of Ireland, in justice to the CO not to do what th e N o bl e Earl, with almost plenarYo' thority, had announce d i t was their intention to d°,' ~o . l o f throw out thi s Bill. It was in m erc y, h e sa id t o a sul' b lo s and deservi ng b o d y o f t h e i r fellow-subjects, that he .„,tio‘ call their Lo r d s h i p s ' attent i on to the consequ enc es of rek' e ffect this Bill, befo re th ey did re j ect i t, in order that if the t i , turned out to be different from what some Rev. Prelates log ciliated, they m i g ht not h ave to blame themselves for n t 6 1s t, too rashly come to a decision adverse to the Bill. Bu , re ed with respe c t t o t h e mer i ts of the question. He entirely c'vrthat with his Noble Friend at the head of the Governmen t ' t n ot ( there was no diff erence i n t h e pr i nciple of the Bill as re d ' Of appeared bef ore th em , an d as it was originally proPeanc•cd, his Majesty' s Mi n i sters . Th e principle of the Bill introo,i, tt was to throw th e c h arge o f t i the upon the landlord, to pod, nate conflict s , w hi c h h a d b een so fatal to the peace of fl e d t he and so rui nous to t h e C hurch, between .the tithe owner a nd present occu pi er o f t h e so i l, from whom he levied his POP a acl This was to hav e b een d one under various induceinen tg o , compulsions, so oner or l ater, but at the latest in the cc'er five years, as his recollection served him. S uc h was t h „, e c ips l originally bro ug ht f orwar d b y Ministers • and the pi l l, the change which it h a d un d ergone in its progress throng a " den other Hous e o f P ar li ament had been to throw the bjapse upon the landlord immediately, instead of waiting for the not of the five years. This was a great change ; but it 1,40 a change in th e pr i nc i p l e o f the Bill, and he agree d If i f those who th oug h t i t an i mprovement.—( Hear, hear.) ptiO were said that he thereby agreed with those whose was to be doubted—whose authority no man would adre" De would tell th e i r L or d s hi ps that among others with- w" h ? nc l° f I thoroughly a gree d was a Ri ght Hon. Baronet, a great fric oho the Church Establishment in England as well as Ire had been P r i nc ip a l S ecretary of State for the Home Ike nct ment, and Secretary for Ireland. The Right Hon. ridiculed the idea of postponing the payment for so ;-„, years, and sa id t h at if the principle of compulsion wa s t a t adopted at all, it should be adopted and carried into efre c once. The principal change in the measure since its `,. 1 : j 0 ' duction was en f orc i ng on the landlords the compulsory 1 .) ,, - j ple at o nce . H e entirely agreed also with his Noble . 1 " 1.-ot' pe•• at the head of the Government in his statement on the rior advantages the Irish Clergy would have under thi s a ltl compared w ith t h e i r s i tuation under the existing law, s"c'tiag their Lordships unfortunately throw them upon it by reic d e td this measure. What was the up s h ot o f the proposal 111-ie, the Clergy by this Bill ? They had now by undoubten b y tje indisputable, i mprescr i pta b le right, an unimpeachablde to a hundred per cent. in the tithes ; but it so hapnene t itle there was what lawyers termed a severance of th e e gy and the p ossess i on , and the same person who in contlit,, plation of l aw , h a d t h e right to one hundred per c`olo, a right which no man, lawyer or layman, would dispute,: n of as often happ ene d, i n t h e receipt of a very moderate porP°,ser the 100 per cent. H e was i n legal, but not in actual Pt:ach sion ; he had all the law with him, but the fact veil - par' against him. It was an o l d warning addressed to young to rasters, when they were more anxious to put a point of ' a fi e the Judge than lay th e i r f acts before the Jury, that one 49 , n u a de of fact was worth a poun d weight of law. No man was Irish more acquainted with the truth of this saying than the .1; tithe-owner. Thi s t i t h e was fortified in law beyond a cnitat but was out of possession. This was a state of thing s a creditable to the law ; but it was a state of things not e't to alter. It was easy to say that tithes ought to be collec T e he but their whole army had failed in collecting therom Pa Government then, in the measure it originally introduce"! a i ls in the measure improved, as he contended it had been , Irl ns eti" progr ess t h rough the other House of Parliament, Pr, e P, - by' that inste a d o f 100 1 . collected with extreme difficult)., bloodshed, by litigation, by processes, by endless rni,, ser ', s r oil s breaking o f t h e peace throughout the country, by civil —instead, he said, of 1004 so collected perhaps owe 'Go but the most insecure of properties the next year, sOt vernment purposed, wisely and prudently he tbouge" d to to make a compromise with wrong, but having a regltrhing I circumstanc es , t o g i ve something for security, sor e e ; t ioo; for peace, an d somet hi ng for saving the c os t o f col i c- Of What the Bill proposed should be given for all this, lr es f the per cent., making the net, certain, and positive receiP,t°ing tithe-owner 77i p er cent. Now, he could not help W l ' t ot with the Noble Lord at the head of the Governmen t ' in many of their Lordships would deem themselves felicitouairs, having such an o ff er made with respect to their private a ff er n o vin a And he w ou ld venture to say that many of them, not i ll 10v of tithes, but owners of estates, and entitl e d t o the 'II to cent. o f rents agreed to be received w o uld be o f f t ho se make a compo s iti on , if r i sk attended the collection °- rents, if tenants were often backward in paying, and under' times refused to pay at all, they would be glad, he said, r ,ef half the difficulties of the Irish tithe-owncr, to ay 22 1 '," 61 4 cent. for the sake of having their rent paid by• the "i'Voocils,, ete Forests in paper as good as gold, without risk of bad de'A'`.. the tenants leaving, of land being thrown upon their hands, 11 : ar .• certainty of agency expenses, poundage, and stewar d .% to counts. How many of their Lordships, he should lice or know, would refuse to give 100,0001. of rent, not easily asafely got transferred, converted into 77,5004, paid- a s ; c ked larly every half year as the clock struck ? But then it was re by the Noble Earl who spoke last, how the landlord was t. self cover the amount from his tenants with which he had been charged ? N ow, nothing was more certain, than that 11" r I tvi t the % --...1