The Sun. — London, England, 1831-10-06 00:00:00

Ming the Noble Lord tight as to the state of their opinions.—..(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Lord I% H TLGRAVE rose amidst loud cries of " Order !" which for some moments prevented his being heard. He would stand there, he said, until it should be their Lord. ships' pleasure to hear him.—(Order, and hear.) He assured his Noble Friend that in the remarks which he (Lord Mu!grave) had made upon the opinions of the inhaa bitaots of Bond-street, he did not mean to disparage them in comparison with their fellow-citizens. All that he meant was, that if his Noble Friend would take the trouble to extend his inquiries and perambulations to other streets, he would find the same specific contradiction of his state ment, that the feelings of the people had cooled upon the subject of Reform, as was afforded by the example which he himself (Lord Wharncliffe) had chosen.--(11 m .) Lord WHARNCLIFFE had never said that the feelings of the people were altered on the general question of Res. form, but that a great part of them shrunk from the Bill upon the table. Lord MULGRAVE had not read the petition just pre sented by hie Noble Priend betide him (Lord Holland) t but he believed that the petitioners earnestly prayed their Lordships to pass the Bill now before them.--(Hear.) Lord KENYON and the Marquis of WEST3IINSTER rose "ashler, amidst loud cries for the latter, to whom at length Lord Kenyon gave way. Marquis WESTMINSTER said, that the motion before the House was that the petition (from Bond-street) should lie upon the table ; and as he had presented a petition from the city of Westminster, of which the present val. ~ioners are inhabitants, he begged leave to say a few words apon that petition.—(Hear.) The Noble Baron opposite CLord Wharncliffe) bad said that the petition of the inhaa • s i gne aym . at . m . inster was far from being respectably ' failure altogether._(.. - Nr. ) :Torti i ci2n, and, in short, a The Duke of BUCKINGHAM roseAn3Vli lT '• ) , interruption by cries of " Hear," and " Order.") lle said that the petition had been ordered to lie upon the table, and that, therefore, there was no question before the House. The Marquis of WESTMINSTER said that the ques tion respecting the petition had not been put, and that be was accordingly in order.—(How, hear.) He had only to say, that if the inhabitants of Bond-street er St. James's-street, or any other street in Westminster, vrere op posed to the Reform Bill, they would have attended the meeting, and opposed the petition Mach he had pre sented. It was not to be believed, that if the majority of the inhabitants of that city were of different opinions from those of the petitioners, they would not have attended at the meeting, and overwhelmed the Reformers by their vote'. REFORM BILL. The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Re form Bill having been read, several Lords presented them selves to the House, but at length gave way to Lord DUDLEY, who throughout the whole of his speech could only he beard in an occasional sentence, He was understood to say that he did not rise in the expecta tion of being able to add anything to what had been said by his Noble Friends near him, to prove the inexpediency of the measure of Reform proposed by his Majesty's Mi nisters. But lest he should be supposed to be insensible to the danger that this measure would bring upon the in stitutions of the country, or that be shrunk from the duty of defending them, he would take the ',betty of submitting to their Lordships his views of the nature and probable effects of the Bill now before them. He was the rather induced to do so, because he thought that perhaps that might be the last opportunity which any Peer might have of addressing the House of Lords, such as it had been constituted by their ancestors, and in the full possession of eli its privileges.—(The Noble Lord became wholly inau dible at the bar for several minutes, but his observations were loudly cheered by the Lords around him,) If the Bill should ever be carried into effect, it would make a total change in the Constitution of Parliament. Ws Majesty's Ministers had scarcely taken the reins of Government into their bands, when they commenced a series of attacks upon the institutions of the country.—(Land cheers.) There must inamediate'y be a change in every thing—nothing should escape. There must be a change in the law, a change in. the administra tion of justice, and, lastly, a change in the Constitution of Parliament, such as would make the House of Commons the depository of the whole power of the State.— (Loud cheers.) Never was the assent of their Lord 'ships before required to so monstrous a measure.— (Cheers.) They were called on to cast a stigma upon all the legislation of their ancestors. The new modelling of the Constitution was proposed with as little hesitation or consideration as if it were of no more importance than the digging of a canal or the enclosing of a piece of land. His Majesty's Ministers came down to the House with the Bill in one hand and the sword in the other. He confessed that when tlnt—eonntry •- , cvs,...Lotst to Lave consti tution, and when his own condition and prospects, and those of the body to which he belonged, were about to undergo a very questionable change, he could not refrain from asking whether there were any sufficient grounds for that change ? The great test of the capability of a Govern ment was, in all countries, the management of the finances. Those were of such importance to the prosperity and greatneenn and even to the existence of the State, that it had always been necessary for the Government of this country to maintain, on that subject, the most perfect con fidence of Parliament. Now, what was the case with the present Ministers of the Crown ?—(Cheers.) Not only had they failed in engaging the confidence of Parliament, but they had proved themselves ineepable of conducting the financial affairs of the country —(Cheers.) It was not merely that they had failed in seine measures of finance, but they had actually succeeded in none.—(Cheere.) Was it becoming then in the Ministers who could not succeed in the adjustment of a single tax, from the duty upon cotton to that upon timber, to lay their rash hands upon the most important institutions of the country, and at tempt to make alterations, which, if they were to be made at all, required the greatest wisdom, caution, and abilities?—(Cheering.) He would not say anything of those parts of the foreign affairs of the country which were still said to be in an unsettled state. But some things re specting them were well known. It was well known that his Majesty's Ministers had formed alliance with our old enemies, and now were at variance with our old friends. It was well known they had consented to the demolition of those fortresses which had before been looked upon as the keys of Europe, and had been established at an ex pense of many millions sterling to this eountry.—(Cheers.) That was a result which no one would ever have looked for as the determination of an amicable negociation. It was rather like the result of a war, in which England had suffered total defeat on sea and land, and her treasury bad been exhausted of every guinea—(Cheers)—and in which the victories of a French General had eclipsed the glories, and robbed us of the fruits of Waterloo.—(Much cheer ing.) The Bill was not a measure of mere Parliamentary Reform, but involved many other important questions. It set oat with a proposition of his Majesty's Ministers, which, in a time when agitation had not excluded the in fluence of reason upon the opinions of the people, would be scouted by every man in the nation. The heeding pro position of the Bill was, that this country had never en joyed good Government.—(Cheers.) The Constitution was the same now that it had been at the revolution. If it bad undergone any alteration, it was that the people had gained a greater influence and the Peers less. Many causes had contributed to increase the popular influence : of these, some of the most powerful were the publicity of the pro ceedings of both Houses of Parliament, and the activity of the Press—that new and formidable Power in the State — the firm ally of alt, popular leaders. The influence of the people was continually on the increase, and was duly render ing Reform less necessary. As to the right of those to whom it was proposed to give the franchise, he would rnle, what right had the householder who paid a rent of 101. a year more than the man who paid but 51. a year? As a mat ter of right there could be no reason for withholding the franchise from the one and giving it to the other. With re spect to the evils which it was pretended the Reform Bill would remedy, he could see only one evil from which the country was suffering, and that was the excess of the po pulation in proportion to the means of employment and subsistence.—(Hear, hear.) For theie many remedies had been recommended, such as emigration, the cultiva tion of waste lands, and changes of the currency. But what healing measure would a reformed Parliament adopt, which could not be as honestly considered and as readily put into operation by the present House of Commons? Was it to be supposed that some great secret in political science had been discovered by the philosophers of Bir mingham or Sheffield, by which the happiness of a nation would be as it were miraculously promoted, and which bad escaped the researches of all former Statesmen. —(Cheers.). The evils from which the country suffers were attributed to the proprietors of boroughs—persons who might just as reasonably be held reponsible for the badness of the weather.—(Hear,) The people were told that they bad been plundered and impoverished by those who were called the boroughmongers, and yet not one argument had been advanced to sho w th at Reform would put a morsel of bread into the m out h s of the people.—(Hear, hear.) Still the wagespeople w ere to ld that trade would be rendered fl ourishing—that would' be made high, and that bread would be made cheap by a Reformed.Parliarnente These were the results which they were taught to expect fox:sr:the Bill. The ap . peal which bad been made : Wattle :people, in a time ofhigh , citetnento. rite very lik e an attempt to induce a man, In a state of intoxication, to sign a deed to alienate his pro perty. He knew that those who introduced the Bill dis claimed the holding out of immediate advantages to the people from the measure of Reform. But they did not prevent their supporters from holding out such expecta tions. The lives and properties of their Lordships would ' be safe, if there were no Reformers amongst the people ex cept those who had been gained over by the logic with which the Bill had been supported.---(Cheers.) But as the case really stood, if the Bill was to be carried at all, it would - be carried by the force of popular clamour and violence, an.d nut by a conviction of its expediency in the minds of the Legislature.—(Hears hear.) If the authors of the Bill would forego 'the aid which they received from all those who supported the Bill by arguments against which they '(the Ministers) set their facer, there would be but little anxiety about the meastra amongst the people. One of the first effects of the Bill would be to prevent anything like an elective Government existing in this country. He did not mean to say that tlit:e would not be something with the name of GoVernment.—(Hear.) , But there could be no Goventnent capable of adopting a'' firm course of policy, foreign or domestic. They wculd be controuled in all their operations, and 'carried away by every change of popular opinion.: --(The Noble Lord was :ten understood to comr!ain of the want of deliberation with which the measure had been prepared.) The task which they were imposing upon themselves Was like mak ing brieks without straw. They we're about to undertake e: Government without tte means of Government. They were underttking to controul, with curtailed and stinted . eneans, these whom it was difficult to check by all the powers of the Constitution un imraired : and they expected to keep those persons within bounds after they t3nould have put into their hands ' the power which they had long been struggling te 'obtain. —(Cheers.) He knew that it was the theory of the Con .- i.n a* tfie • I liie r ti u lwh Houses of Parliament—the elective e t s h e al T s, cr„tiai as branches of the Legis .henry. It was not true in preserved. It was only because that the balance had hitherto been maintained. It practice. For even the present ...._ *f ei n catim ... onsL, . engaged in a struggle with the other two overpower both.—(Hear, hear .) It was only by what - were called the abuses et the Constitution that the.balance of the th ß re u e t the Crown coA the Aristocracy had in the House of Corn . moos an influence, which was unknown to the Constitu tion,' would not be proper to detain their Lordships that evening by going into the details of schedules A and 11, or of the Bill itself, which he had always thought, since he first saw It, had been drawn up by some gentleman on the spur of the moment, who had not had time to make inquiry or to consider sufficiently the tendency of his own measure. —( Hear, hear.) As to the mode of election, he world only ask, could any man obtain a seat under that Bill without paying court to agreat number of people.—(Hear.) The friends of the Bill represented the Constitution as altogether worthless, and that no man could be honest who defended it. Now he thought that it ought rather to he said that the Constitution had subsisted so long, and in such good times, that it ought not to be given up until We should have seen what we were to get in exchange for it.— (Cheers.) Had we not been taught that it was, above all things, venerable and worthy of our attachment—that it was a glorious monument of the wisdom and justice of our ancestors—:and that its highest merit was that it blended the interests of the three estates so harmoniously to- gether as to give no undue preponderance to any ? (Much cheering.) In foreign countries, we understood the Noble Earl to say, wise and intelligent men were in amazement at the rashness of the British Government. Fie did not say thatlir mar Ministers, acting under the old system, had not made great mistakes; he did not mean to vindicate, or even to apologise, for all their measures ; but the species of political ascendancy that had preVailed, had produced a race of men distinguished in every department —statesmen unrivalled in wisdom—orators unequalled in eloquence. True it might be that there had been a great advancement of late years in the state and scale of society ; but the periods of Blenheim, La Hogue, Trafalgar, and Waterloo were not likely to he exceeded in glory, at least during the next, which might, possibly, be a Reformed century. Their Lordships bad been told that the exercise of their undoubted right to reject this Bill would draw down upon them the indignation of the people; he trusted, and he believed, that the danger, if any, had been greatly exaggerated by the fears of some and by the cun ning of others, lie did not mean to deny that resistance, under certain circumstances, was not an evil ; but he was addressing an assembly of gentlemen and men of honour, and he asked them wheV:er it was not better to inept the supposed peril, than fail in the discharge of an imperative duty ?—(Cheers.) if this Bill were passed, would this be a period to Reform? Would it end here— was this to be," the be all, 'and the end all hece;" or, rooil. LP t 11..w,.l ut..rtutnas, an o those deMandS by other changes, until the Peerage should lie stripped naked of its privileges? The name of the House of Lords might, indeed, be permitted to exist for a time, but it would only be as an instrument to regis-- ter the edicts of its popular tyrants. How long, he would inquire, would the owners of hereditary dignities be permitted to enjoy political existence when once all the barriers for their protection were removed ? He had no doubt that the measure had the entire approbation of all the pretended friends of the Constitution, who were the di ,, guised enemies of social order, and who sought with this instrument to pull down ruin on the heads of all who had anything to lose. He cslled upon their Lordships to make a stand now, or to submit for ever—not to shrink befor, the insolent and domineering spirit of the times, and to resist this first and great encroachment upon their indis putable rights. Ever► if it should turn out that the re jection of the Bill was wrong, another pea❑ of Reform might he introduced hereafter; but once pass the measure upon the table, and ruin was inevitable.—(Cheers.) He admitted that some change in the sta.e of the representa tion was necessary—every reasonable man was of that opinion ; but the question was, whether thin sweeping change should be adopted, forced upon the House in a moment of excitement and intoxication, without the chance of appeal to a calmer period and a more rational spirit.-- (Hear, hear.) The most earnest friends of Reform knew well the feelings that at present animated the people—they dread the period when that people should awake from their feverish dream, and should return to their old habits of thinking and former good sen,e. They knew that an op portunity like the present might never return, and that if the Constitution were not now destroyed, it bid fair to be eternal.—(Cheers.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I can assure your Lordships, that had I been permitted to address you last night, previous to the adjournment, I should not have occupied your attention long, but the delay has given me the opportunity of hearing, lam sorry to say, very im perfectly, the eloquent speech of the Noble Earl who has just concluded. As he has addressed himself to the prin ciple of this measure, although he preceded those retrial Irs by observations that bore but slightly upon it, I shall, before I vindicate the part I have taken in regard to this Bill, advert briefly to a portion of what fell from the Noble Earl. I will not follow him in his excursive range through the foreign policy and through the domestic and financial adMinistration of the affairs of this country by the present Government; but at the same time I cannot allow him to rest any part of his opposition to the mea sure beibre the House on the ground of failure in our un dertakings, whether they relate to the concerns of the na tion at home or abroad, without enlightening him as to the errors be bas committed. If be have been an at tending, 1 presume that be has not been a listening Me►n her of this House—(Cheers and laughter)—for if he had both listened and attended, he would have known that various important measures were brought forward, which his friends did not venture to resist—great changes in the law, upon which no division was hazarded.—(Cheers.) The Earl of DUDLEY said that he had applied his ob servations only to the measures of finance of the present Ministers. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I understood the Noble Earl to speak of the whole system of measures, the object of which was to overthrow all that our ancestors had esta blished. Why, let me ask, did the Noble Earl suffer the Bankruptcy Bill to go down to the Commons without one word of warning?—(Cheers.) Why did he not oppose the Lunatic BPI, and if he thought it so fatal, press it to a division ?—(Cheers and laughter.) The Earl of DUDLEY repeated that he had confined himself to financial measures. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—SureIy the Noble Eirl will not deny that he charged the present Ministers with having attempted to change all that the wisdom of our forefathers had established. The Earl of DUDLEY—Undoubtedly. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—And surely he will not deny also, that in the midst of these tremendous, and, as he thinks, fatal changes, he has preeerved - a constant silence, and witnessed without remonstrance the ruin of the Constitution.—(Much cheering and laughter.) If, there fore, he has been right in his argument he has been wrong in his conduct, fur the measures to which I have alluded were passed unanimously, and we never once had the benefit of the light which it seems had broken in upon him. But he tells us that be referred particularly to measures of finance, and be asserts that all the plane of the present - Government' have failed. Let me ask whether he was present when the Bill regarding the, coal duties was passed ?—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) Was hi — Present_ when the Bill altering the wine duties was ' passed?—(Cheers.) Was he present when the Bill alter- • ing the whole system of the cotton trade was passed?— (Cheers.) Does he know that that financial measure, which lie asserta has failed, has met with the universal approbation of the trade, and that it has revivified the commerce o'f Man chester and the North of Ireland ti.as-(Cheers.) Are these measures which have so failed as to entitle the Noble Earl, however preposterous it may appear, to found Upon them his resistance to the Bill of Reform.s--(Hear, hear.) the Noble Earl asserts that some measures are good for taeeping, and lam sure he has as good reesoli for saying that some speeches are good 'fat. keeping—(Cheers and laughter)— only, perhaps, in this instance he has kept his speech too long, since it ought to have been delivered when the Pills I have mentioned were under the consideraticai of the House.—(Hear hear.) row, however, we are enligh tened by the easplanation of the Noble Earl ; has de livered one speech upon all the Bills ; he has reserved himself for this occasion, and when measures have been adopted by the Houle unanimously, and have accomplished every °Nett for which they were intended, he breaks the awful silence he has observed, and in a tone little short of oractear, pronounces them decided and melancholy failtires. (Much cheering and laughter from all sides.) B u t he has not salt in argument alone, for he has indulged in a vein of wit which I shall endeavour to deprecate no more than by saying that his wit was of a piece with his argu ment ; he has talked of the new discovery of the necessity of a philosopher to represent the large towns of Birming ham and Manchester ; but if my memory does not en tirely forsake me, within this very year I heard the Noble Earl himself maintain the necessity of creating such phi losophers, and I saw him deeply engaged in the generation of one after his own heart, when he insisted upon the fit ness of transferring the franchise from East Retford to Birmingham. On this occasion, however, he terms it nothing less than ridiculous, to suppose that the inhabi tantsof such a place as Birmingham are capable of choosing a philosopher for themselves, whom they know and can trust, in preference to the silent sage whom the • - I , e o i ? r u e s Noble Earl would select for them.—(Cheers.) He after. a ''''"' etaiall--LiTe , to ni veat apprehension that as persons of weight a n d t a l en t irs moments ment will be excluded from Parliament. He ba y states that times may arrive when men of the greater claims, and parties of the highest merit, may he unpopular, but his illustration of this point was not a little singular, and as unfortunate as it was singular. The Noble Eirl, I know, is a most accurate historian—in this respect he is excelled, perhaps, by no Peer in the Reese_.. but lie seems not to have brought his historical research down to a period sufficiently recent. He talked of the coalition of 1782, which he contended was a great teal more unpopular than that of the Anti-Reformers mw ; and he told us that in consequence of that unpopubrity Mr. Fox was excluded from the representation of Wst minster. Now the fact, unluckily for the Noble Earl is that Mr. Fox was re-elected for the populous city of llSst minster—a fact that sheaved that even in times of 'he greatest excitement there was still such a thing as natiotal gratitude.—(Cheers.) I will now take the liberty of Li vening to what more particularly applies to the Bill upon the table, and to the allegation of the Noble Earl win spoke so ably last night (Harrowby)—unfounded I mist call it—that Ministers entertained a deliberate design to overthrow the Constitution and to destroy the sacred esta blishments of our ancestors. I shall also notice sone points that occurred at a later period in the debate, aid especially such arguments as are opposed to the princisle of the measure. I say advisedly " such arguments as are opposed to the principle of the measure," because most of what has been said on the opposite benches has been in favour of the principle instead of against it. After listen ing last night with the greatest attention to the Nenle Earl who preceded me in the office I have the honour to hold, I confess I could not understand how he brauilit himself to vote in opposition to the measure. He tsld is, indeed, that he had exerted all his ingenuity to find arguments in its favour, but the whole tendency of his speech showed rather a desire to discover reasons for a contrary course. The Nob'e Earl told us of the ca pital speech that could be made out of the writings and harangues of those who formerly had advocated and now resisted Reform ; so I say that I could select in controvertible grounds for passing this Bill from the ar guments, omissions, concessions, and, if I may be par doned the word, inconsistencies of those who are arrayed on the benches opposite.—(Cheers.) Not one of . those Noble Lords who have contended against the alteration of the law in consequence of the change in public opinion, who has not illustrated in his own person the effect of that change.—(Hear, hear.) One and all in different degrees inconsistently with each other, showing not only n o eon- cert, but the impossibility of concert, I;ve exhibited proofs of that change in their opinions, and have tidzz...;=--L .... with toe present strong of door., it would not be statesmanlike nor safe, I do not say to re sist unlimited concession, but to disregard the progress of national sentiment.—( Cheers.) In arguing this question, I labour under the difficulty—if difficulty it can he called —of agreeing with the Noble Earl (11 irrowhy) in al most all his premises. There is no opinion to which I hold more strongly than that all change is an evil in itself, more especially in a state of society complicated and civi lized as our own. lam bound also to admit that the con dition of no society can be secure in which property doe s not exercise, if not a commanding preponderance, a very great influence.—(Cheers.) I admit also that long-exist ing relations between man and man, between the governor and the governed, are much more easily maintained than even more perfect relations if they are new. But admit ting these principles, there is one inference from them that I absolutely deny, viz.—that it has been the charac ter of the institutions and Constitution of this country to oppose a rigid and stubborn resistance to all modifica tions dictated by changes in the times. I have read the history of our institutions differently—l look to the Statute-book, and I ask myself what were the laws attendant upon that great change of opinion —the It-formation 2—(Cheers.) What were the laws to regulate and defend the prerogative of the Crown under the unfor tunate House of Stuart?—(Cheers.) What were the laws to secure the succession to the throne to the House of Hanover ?—(Cheers.) What were the laws which at tended the Union of Scotland with England ?—(Cheers.) Much more—What were the laws establishing the Union with Ireland ? and though last, not least, what was the effect of that change, inferior to none that preceded it either in force or violence, recently introduced by the Noble Duke himself, by which three-fifths of the voters of Ireland were disfranchised ?—(Continued cheers from all sides of the House.) What are these, my Lords, but so many instances in which tle institutions of the country, for their own benefit and for strengthening the bases on which they repose, have been made to bend to circum stances of political expediency, and by that expediency alone could be justified ?—(Cheers.) The character and the main feature of our institutions has been to assort and to gather round them the whole strength of opinion a n d the whole power of property ; in other words, all that firmness that is to be derived from wealth and know. ledge—of wealth expanded and knowledge diffused. lam therefore agreed in principle, if not in application, with the Noble Duke, who adverted to some expression that fell from me on a former occasion, but who used the word "learning" instead of the more appropriate term " knowledge," which I bad employed. I had no refe rence, I need hardly say, to mere academical acqui,itions, hut to that widely spread information which renders men competent to judge of their own interests.—(Cheers.) That _ spirit of accommodation to circumstances is the real character of our institutions ; and if it had not that virtue in it, as your Lordships will find on looking to the long series of laws I have noticed, the British Constitution, instead of descending to us from our an cestors in all its power and magnificence, would have been abandoned as a wreck, and have been left as a monument and a warning upon the shore. I shall now address myself to some of the observations of the Noble Duke who spoke last yesterday. I beard, with some astonishment, the remarks he made upon that ' which, with the most sincere respect, I must still call his unfortunate declaration on the subject of Reform.—(Hear.) I understood the explanation of the Noble Duke to be this —that he then spoke as a Minister, and not as a man ; and that whatever might be his opinion as an individual, as the King's Minister he was bound to declare against Reform, and to recommend Parliament not to interfere. From what I recollect of the Noble Duke's conduct on other occasions, I should have expected that he would not only have been the last to draw such a distinction, but the first to adopt a course the very reverse. When I heard the Noble Duke make that declaration, I thought I had his high and venerable authority iR support of the line I am myself taking ; because, until now, I have never advocated the cause of Reform in Parliament. I confess, freely, that no public clamour has ever induced me to hazard an opinion I have not maturely weighed. I confess, freely, without being blind to the abuses of the time, or to the circumstances that called for a review of our representative system, that I always thought it more safe that any change should come recommended by the Ministers of the Crown, inasmuch as concession would then be, to a certain degree, limited, and parties would know exactly how far the altera tion would extend. That is the ground. on which I felt my selfjustiGed in supporting this plan of Reform; and I thought that I had the example of the Noble Duke in my favour; for what did he say on the Roman Catholic question ? He told us that he had refrained from acting on the subject, because be was not the King's Minister, and that he had always I told Lord Castlereagh that a measure ef concession to the Roman Catholics ought, in the first instance, to be proposed by the servants of the Crown. His opinion, however, as to the mode in which Parliamentary Reform ought to be brought forward seems entirely different—foe now the Noble Duke insists that to aid in the purification of the House of Commons is the only thing that a King's Minister ought not to do.—(Hear.) But I will pursue that topic no further; it is enough for me to find the Noble Duke himself at length in the ranks of those who maintain the fitness of some species, and a certain extent of Reform. All who have spoken against the Pill, with the exception of a Noble Feel who delivered his opinion on the first night, hive admitted the necessity of a change— sometimes with great caution—sometimes with more sometimes boldness—sometimes witha v witlliiai disposition step back—(Hearitiontstep forward— andand laughter)—but at all events we have the satisfaction of knowing that they all admit there war some reason foe moving, inasmuch as they could not exactly see how they were to stand whete they were.—(Much cheering.) I say, however, that if there is—that is, a plan of Reform which exists in their minds, whatever may be its shape and substance, " If shape it might be called that shape had none, Or substance might be called that shadow seem'd," —(Cheers.) I say, if there is that pl en of Reform that exists in the recesses of their own minds, or in the secrets of their own councils, that has something of a shape and body, the people of England have a right to complain that six months have elapsed since this question has been openly agitated in Parliament, and they have yet to learn what is the nostrum—(Cheers) --which is to be the antidote to the baleful effects of the system we reconnuend.—(Hear, hear, from the Marquis of LONDONDERRY.) I should be glad if the Noble Marquis who gives me that cheer would tell me what Lis their plan ; and perhaps he will do so at the first opportunity, and make me acquainted with the plan, framed, no doubt, with all that wisdom of de liberation which must be expected to characterzs it.— (Hear, hear.) However, to resume.. I say, my Lo-ds, 'hat the people of England have a right to complain that if the Nome opposite possess any plan of Reform, they have so long delayed its production, though during the time I have mentioned the necessity of Reform has been disputed. A measure of Reform has been introduced into the other House—the Parliament has been dissolved upon the question—the measure has again been intro duced—this Bill has been passed by that House—and we are now et this advanced stage of it without the people of England knowing what it is, if this Bill should be rejected, that they will have to Tool: to, and in what is to consist their safety, if not in the measure which we have proposed.—(Loudcheers.) All that we can collect freen the statement of the Not I: Lords opposite is, that they have made some signs o! progress, and that there are certain possible Reform , which, under certain circumstances, they may produce; but in a knowledge of which as yet neither the Parliament nor the people have been permitted to participate. So that no sooner have we (not sooner than was necessary) embarked on this voyage, not unconscious of the perils and dangers with which it is attended, but not before the moment when these perils and dangers were daily increas ing by the delay—l say, that no sooner have we, urged by a sense of duty; embarked on this voyage, than it turns out that almost all the Noble Lords opposite have dropped down to St. Helen's, and are lying at single anchor ready to join in such a voyage—should it be deemed expedient. —(Cheers and laughter.) I must say, my Lords, that when it is imputed that all of us, and particularly my Noble Friend near me (Earl Grey), hive been acting the parts of impostors and enspirics, and have been dealing out noxious wares to tl:e people, it is rather hard of those who think they have the proper prescriptions—that they are the real state physicians_(Cheers)—tiat admitting as they do the existence ef the disorder, and asserting that they are acquainted with a wholesome remedy, they should all have left us to look out to find what that remedy is,and should leave the people of England to betake themselves, in spite of themselves, to the quackery of my Noble Friend, because they could not get a letter cure for the evils from which they are suffering.—(Cheers.) For myself, I can hardly think that they are se well agreed on the remedy as they would have us believe.—(Bear.) There has been a great evidence of disagreement among the Noble Lords opposite, as far as we can know anything of the matter. There has been evidently a great desire to find . out some thing of a proposal on which they could agree. Every one of them seems now ready to make some concession. The Noble Earl opposite, whom I ought to except from the charge of having offered us nothing instead of our own plan—the Noble Earl opposite has gone se far— ' bas been so much snfles , !:, l 4. l)J4k t aege , sai&oLthe c ire— ase. :ornr77; wer ,roposing to do something about bribery.— (Hear.) [The Earl of MANSFIELD intimated a negative.] I am sure 1 am very sorry ,to have committed the Noble Earl so far, as to have hastily betrayed him into an admis sion which it now seems be did not make, that bribery was inexpedient.—(Cheers and laughter.) I beg his pardon for having done so. I now perfectly understand that he means to do nothing.—(Hear.) I shall not commit the same error with respect to other Noble Lords, for I know them all to be entirely of a different opinion from myself on the subject of Reform ; but I know also that in these opinione they all differ from each other.— (Hear.) The Noble Baron who commenced this debate with that frankness, openness, and honourable candour, which belongs to him, said, he was prepared to concede the whole question of Scotch Reform; but the words were scarcely out of his mouth when the Noble Duke, who spoke last night, travelled to that part of the empire in the discussion, in order to state his opinion that Scotland did not want Reform ; for that it presented the picture of a perfect state of society.—(llear.) [The Duke of WEI., LINGTON leant across and said—" No such thing."] I beg the Noble Duke's pardon if I have mistaken him, but 1 certainly understood him to say so.—(Hear, hear.) He certainly did say that Scotland was the best governed country, and in that expression of best governed, 1 thought he meant to include the state of the representation.— (Hefts.) He said that Scotland was a most prosperous country, and he connected its prosperity with its Govern- ment.—(flear.) All I can say is, that as to the prosperity of Scotland I perfectly concur with the Noble Duke. There is no person who has had an opportunity of witnessing the condition of that country, who is not aware that Scotland presents a most striking specimen of glorious civi lization.—(Cheers.) We all know that it has its Edin burgh—the centre of science and civilization—that it has its Glasgow, which has covered the Clyde with its steam boats and studded the Atlantic with its ships-..[Lord EL LENEOROUGII here made some interruption.] The Noble Baron is desirous of supporting his Noble Friend on the subject of our financial arrangements. I might say some thing of theirs, but I will not.-(Hear.) I repeat, then, that Glasgow has spread its commercial relations to the remotest end of the world; but who is the man that will tell me gravely that this is the consequence of dues and superiorities.—(Hear, hear.) The only superiority I can discover as the cluse of Scotland's prosperity is the supe riority of education, of unrepresented education—that su periority which it is the object of this Bill to introduce into the Legislature, which is excluded at this moment by the present system—that superiority which my Noble Friend wishes to preserve. It is part of the object of the present Bill to include in the representation the advantage of knowledge as well as power.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke has, in the speech which he has addressed to your Lordships, expressed his alarm at the effects of this popular representation when extended to other places be side those which now possess it, and lie states particular o thef great o f the abuses evils, and o rmischiefs what h o:ecfcoitpntitncohpenwainsvtalesesortf there to e representation, entati instances on as it exists under the present system. He has selected as nces i D ,,i n b u s u t b s a e l lofltittuh[iss,el m n w o ls a c s t h lo i m u ef b i s s t t , t a h k e e tr n e u l eoLrtiev theea r p e o N o l oabtli greated s. Earl, but the Noble Duke who cited these instances. The Noble Duke will not, h owever, think it a bad compli ment to him that I have attributed to him what fell from the Noble Earl.—(The Duke of Wellington bowed.) It was an unfortunate selection, for what is the case as regards these two places ? I t so happens that we have the most authentic inform a ti on of the evils produced i n L i verpool and Dublin, for both were the subjects of inquiry last year; and what was the result of these inquiries? They proved that all the bribery and corruption attached to the this f " f ileouthe Bill of D %,efonodouvulin and away ) n o right gurh thto Liverpool,vaontde for w on rott ho hteo tn i representatives, etph t reei householders,e the nta t v b e jt s e b u o t to whom . it is repre sentation of Liverpool,eespposeTeidnitilhelytorast beextfrinudndthtoatberigtilliet.e—ne(eHweiatri,, orneepre iof hear.) This will respect to Liverp ee d, i h s as so l m me e n th i s n e g lec i t n ed t a h s e o increasingattention respectable t l e can numberafnt these instances, t o d e f er you from i ncreas i ng the hazard by thatotni rremarkable wishan nae a t r o l k ar l call g t b l hl i e e t householders isleuh o yoo f (!du v e eero.rt Lordships voters, It so st excludedshooi p which ia appme nf l orss circumstance connected 'with that town. Out of 2,400 who are, as household ers , capa bl e o f s itti ng on j ur i es, there are only eighty Who are voters for Liverpool.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. Roscoe, who established himself among the fiat of the merchants of Liverpool, and who is so highly distinguished in every honourable way, had not a vote for Liverpool.—(H ear , h ear.) All his sons who were established there _were without votes for the town, bLt their gardener%ad a vote.—(Hear, hear.) And then I am told that the instance of that town is an argument against creating a popular right of election, such as is proposed in this Bill, because such persons as the gardener of Mr. Roscoe were guilty of corrupt practice, though this Bill would tale from bins the means of repeating his off,nce, while it would give the right of voting to men like Mr. Roscoe, who are above the suspicion of bribery.—(Hear, hear.) I must now return to the speech of the Noble Lord opposite, which I must again characterise as a most admirable speech. In stating his objections to the Bill, and the apprehensions he entertained with respect to in he has called lour Loll-hips' attention to the conjectural conse quences of it, for which he has, blamed the Noble Earl who introduced it. He has stated as one of his grounds of apprehension, that immediately after this Bill had been passed the new constituency would have an ascendency, which they would use for the purpose of putting ,an end to taxation at--d to the payttient of the interest on the 'l'4'l- tional Debt. I wish that the Noble Earl, before he said this, would have taken the trouble to consider who are those 101. householders that are to obtain a vote by this Bill. I have now in my hand a paper illustrative of the great diffusion of wealth in this country—it is a subject that has before been alluded to, and I am glad that the Noble Earl has again alluded to it ; for his so doing has given me an opportunity of stating the contents of thi s paper. It is a detail of the number of accounts kept at the B ink of England for dividends upon stock ; and out of 274,823 accounts of that kind, there are no less than 264,668 kept with persons for suths less than 2001. per annum.—(Hear, hear.) I beg to ask the Noble Eail whether there is not a degree of probability alm .st amounting to certainty, that these persons comprise a great portion of thet constituency of 10/. Lou-60141,es that will be created by the Bill? And then what be comes of the apprehensions of my Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear.) Does he suppose that these persons, in preparing to issue their peremptory mandates and instructions to their representatives in Parliament, will say, " You may do what you please on matters that come before you, but, above all, take care that our dividends are not paid."— (Hear, hear.)—To issue such instructions to their repte sentatives would exhibit the same degree of wisdom as it the Noble Earl were to say to his bailiff, " You may do what you will with my estate in other respects; but, above all things, take care that no rents are paid.''-- ( Hear, and a laugh.) But then comes another appre hension with regard to that wealth, stated by the Noble Duke. He takes, from the circumstance of the 10/. rnt being fixed as the standard of voting, a deduction that al! the people to whom votes are to be given are of one class in lite, and will, therefore, he more accessible to bribery. When he stated that, he must have forgotten that the clause which allows 10/. householders to vote in cludes not only those who pay that annual rent for their houses, but all those who pay above that stun. That apparent uniformity, therefore, including every thing from 101. to 10,0001. is, indeed, a real inequa lity, so far as the quantity of rent is concerned, and fur niehes no ground for the Nuble Duke's assertion that such a class of men would be more accessible to bribery (The Duke of WELLINGTON said he had asserted they would be more likely to enter into combinations.) There will be no greater facility for combinations among them after this Bill has been passed, than at the present moment. Besides, I have the satisfaction to he able to tell him that there will be more voters who pay 201. a year and upwards rent, than who pay only 10/., in those towns where such a rent will confer the elective franchise.—(Bear, hear- ) But the Noble Duke, in stating his apprehensions on this subject, and in referring to what he describes as the his tory of the rise of this demand for Reform, has stated that the whole, or the greater part of it, proceeded front the events that took place in France, in July. 1830. I beg to say that I distinctly dispute that fut.—(Heas., hear.) To referring to the whole history of this country, I should say that it has been growing for years p (Some NOBLE Loan said, " From the time of the Ame rican war.") From the time of the American war ! No, it existed long before that period, though fifty years would be a period long enough for an opinion of this kind to ac quire overwhelming strength in this country; but it is in the nature of things that such opinions should not proceed regularly, and with uniform progress; it is in the nature of things that the demands for these great changes should be at first slow, uncertain, and irregular, but that it should be progressive. Lord Bacon has laid down the rule, that things move towards their places with irregularity, but they are regular when they get into them.—(Hear, hear.) That which your a tention, as Statesmen, ought to be called to, is the fact of the exis tence of such an opinion—an opinion that has not, indeed, been uniform in its progress, but has manifested itself at different times, and has furnished mater of discontent in soot onsoseee s nuts esocioss Yoe-- date that thew, 4—, - produced the danger, it is the same as if you should say that the danger existed not in the train of gunpowder that had been forming for years, but in the match that acci dentally produced its explosion.—(Cheers.) Where such a mass of discontent exists, it is liable to be excited by operations abroad, or agitated by distress at home, or stimulated into action by accidental circutnstauces in the revolution of time ; and there can be no ultimate safety if you do not attempt to cure the evil, which otherwise will most threaten with its dangers when you are least aware of its existence, and least ready to act against them.— ( Hear.) I will not detain your Lordships further on this subject. The real principles of this Bill are principles to which every Noble Lord opposite has more or less given his implied assent. The principles of this Bill (for I ab stain from going into its details, though it haw been the policy of this discussion on the other side of the House to direct your Lordships' attention rather to the details than to the principles), which have been irnpliedly assented to, are the extinction of nomiriation boroughs, the extension of political influence to the middle classes of the com munity, and the extension of the right of election in counties to every description of landholders--a right which has hitherto been confined to particular classes among them. These are the principles of the Bill, all the rest are details, which will be subject to your consideration, and to which 1 say I wish, as well as my Noble Friend, you should exercise your undoubted and unquestioned pri vilege of giving your attention.—(Cheers.) If, for an in stant, I could suppose that he wished to debar you, if debar you he could, from doing so, i must say, with the greatest respect for my Noble Friend, I should, without hesitation, first in private and then in public, express my difference of opinion ; for although lam anxious that you should not ' consider as your privileges any pa , t of the corruptions of the Constitution, I shoull be ready and determined, as any man in this House, to contend for and preserve those legal and constitutional privileges, whenever and however they may be objected to—privileges which you have de rived from your ancestors, and one of the most undoubted of which is the right of calmly deliberating and determin ing upon every possible measure which is sent to you from the other House of Parliament.—(Hear.) This conducts me to the last topic with which I shall trouble your Lord ships, which though the last is not the least in importance, because in this place it is peculiarly applicable. Among objections to this measure it has been stated that if car ried it will affect the future existence of your Lord ships' House. As I see that proposition has met with attention, I shall, on that account, beg to pause a few instants upon it. Notwithstanding the assumption of my Noble Friend opposite who, began the adjourned debate, and that of others, that the future fortunes and rank of the Members of this House will he placed in jeopardy if this Bill is passed, they have shown us nothing to justify the belief that your constitutional and legal privileges will be endangered—that those pri vileges which I may say every historical author has de scribed and admired, which the public have always sup ported, will not remain in the same vigour as before. That of which you will be deprived, if deprived of anything, will be only a corrupt share in the abuses of the other branch of the Legislature.—(Ctieers.) I know it has been asked, and the question has been often repeated, what will, what can the House do if it conies into direct collision with public opinion? I answer, that it need not fear if it stands upon that constitutional ground which public opinion has claimed for it, in which is its strength, rather than in any illegal influence that may possibly be exerted by it or any of its Members in any case you may suppose.—( Hear, hear.) It is necessary for the support of the hypothesis of danger, that you should suppose a case in which public opinion shall be opposed to that which your Lordships may deem public policy. Let the ask, if you are unable to support and justify as sound and honest the opinion which, in the constitutional discharge of your duty, and if you are unsafe in the place which is the .itadel of your strength, of your constitutional strength, you can possibly hope to be safe in the unconstitutional and flimsy out-works of Gatton and Old Sarum ? (Cheers.) Do you believe that the public would not ste through, that they have not seen through, the pretence on which such places are represented, as your true Supports, and that your influence there would fail even in a good cause, but would be most utterly useless in a bad one. —(il which lives in the hearts and feelings of the people of this country, your influence would be, as it ought, respected eainrllu hear)—wh ile,encwhich if you resort to th a t constitu tionalbelieve the peopl e respect , an d and deferred to? For these reasons it. was that I never heard the Noble Duke with greater pleasure than when he treated with contempt the assertions that there had been ebullitions of popular discontent against your constitu tional influence. I say that the people are not against the o ur ejit constitutional privileges you possess , th..se which you cannot enjoy but by a direct ?/ B , le of, the liw.—( Hear, hear.) Those. are not the plan:Veep the system that I would recommend ; that is not CO''it.tret racter of the system which I should wish to see ;tit I hope, by acting on the ptinciples I have state! ,41 enabled to transmit to my posterity those honours uw•abli, have teceived alike, I trust, for the benefit of the as fur myself, and which I have derived from 0 1 Y a : t for bat are PP joi t tors on whom they were conferred, as I belie! , ; w ol their own advantage in particular, but for the t ! o i o st well-being of the State. I hive no further ob'e t ; a d that I wish, after having almost exhausted the piLe opo r the House, to trouble you with. I ho p e it will ' O ,O cessary for me to add that I wish that yaur demtitboo not be influenced by public clamour. I hope rhcou Wtd will not be used; or if they should be, th at e # o9 itle t notice them only with disdain ; but that ' in t " he th ° '3,l Lion of thilS qnestion; you wift riot eer!ooll ebto siderations of real danger ; that ) 00 will nljebone adopt this measure because it is connected n'i t ."-sjor in society which none of you can deny t° be polisf tarand which, indeed, it has lit en part o f youf to r a t produce. I say it has been part of your POifY I , duce these changes, because, by a course of nse le o o f oe j tion you have favoured the spread of knovrie d g e d ee l the population ; you bare difhised sc ience ati, 4 oe among the large towns—von have created n ew uu j oe men, to whom I now hesee.ili you not to refuse Ptrbey aA of real value—(Cheers)—privilegea which , if oon° Eac,lislimen, they must wish for a s belonging to 13 ; do 4 of society in which they exist. Do ne t believe 04 having developed this course of policy, after boringo 0 s/ L s/ the surface of the land with new stream s "f wealth c a iatelligenre, they can all be made to bow Tvithira 000 narrow claonels as h:retufere.—(Cheers.) I ~e „ P co lede,l to adopt a reel chance of principles, h ,ving thus endeavoured to diffuse induattY, and wealth, and intelligence over the land, .1 P il " o e t w p you have begun, and to incorporate for ev!,... 00 . 1 4 vintages you have created with the former r° as your country.—(The Noble ALtrqu!s sat doe" 'OO ou'l and continued rheerine.) suP The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he w t,ie to claim their Lordships' attention at that A in b e eoll i t consequence of the personal attack which ha" w hich," uaon him by the Noble Marquis—an attack li t f was much surprised, as lee was not conscious 1) ... d any ever given the Noble Marquis any persona' °drat - The Marquis of LANSDOWNE begged tn .., alT e ,i - e g intention of offering the Noble Marquis anY ; I' dei d - ; The Alarquis of LONDONDERRY, 91 himself perfectly satisfied with the Nobl e ..- t ar thil ti :a sb ibl e planation, proceeded to say, that he did n ° 6e at Noble Marquis had answered one single Ontiobl e i r many which had been so ably urged bY t Jlob l / .- 6; near him, on the preceding evenimt s' ••• is 7 ors ,7, 1 4 b quis had launched forth into I'. • ip that cee.amatin so highly excelled ; but he would tell the V ° , 4o , a i,le what was the difference between his deelain ri :ithell" arguments of the Noble Earl. The spee ch ;00 - Earl had tarn the Reform Bill • to piece', d for Marquis with all his great power .od *. had not been able to re-establish it in any s' 11 ": himself, he considered that the Bill was un) es ibrir f ts 4 tutional, and unprincipled; and he would te ll 4 l 6 0 , ships why. He considered it was unjust, benr,;lol;6o4 large classes of the people of their vested rts it but to folloviroook sAered that it was unconstitutional, becan ge .:o l so all the great institutions of the country; tM dered it unprincipled, because if Noble Loiter/ to wheat took place in another House they irnului,e fGovernment bad departed, in the progress of oral Front every principle on which they set forvinfO A T t i shifted their ground in all ways which they tlf i ri to keep them in power. He also accused th e ;11 . :111 1 partiality in the details of the Bill ; and beg,eo4 lady to call their Lordships' attention to the ut o i o counties of Durham, Northumberland, and C L r ot !, g e There was another point, in reference to that P North in which lie had some interest, towhisPir fe bej quence of the absence of his Noble Friend (P d .,. 0701 felt some difficulty in adverting; but he 4 upon the subjtct, hat lie could not pass it nver in silence. lie alluded to the case - of the O is e ; Dothan), and wished their Lordships to °WS % treme hardship which had been there inflicted or; body of men. He did not believe the Belo:Vet:bog! he satisfied with this Bill, extensive as u m ' t i. he l .0 9 ;0 would effect. The Noble Earl must feel tu, s ' Or/ suffrage and the vote by ballot were behind ' 4 they would inevitably follow. Earl GREY—No. nu 0 01 ' Y inaintallisoy The Marquis of LONDONDERR - Earl. b• 11( withstanding the disclaimer of the N o ble 'of I =o l 3le - would not be satisfied witn tuts 10' f 'rulers Navin. estabbshed , he first parallel, be satisfied until they had carried the Plat.Jteri Irishman, he flt most - strongly respecting t r e i s s:l i l e t evils which must ensue from the measure. ' lr I rected as it unfortunately was, hy a single ( f a g:s not be content with the Reform Bill. It wen! to sep regarded as a step towards a repeal of the V °l , ° p eg was pet fectly well persuaded that if tie i n n ta t n ha C t atl c i o ol u ic n s t , ry a , nd an so d 13i1 to ti f f ? would have the effect of delivering up Irela nd t O d d hear.) As neatly as h d e telsi c et o r ti oPy ld iin.og i the numbers and di-positions of the 101. voter s Seri there would be seventy-two Members of r he he Commons, out of the. Members allowed by t a .eie, rangement, hostile to Protestants interest $ a r eferj testant Church, and eager to promote $ te d the Union.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He Pre ° 1$ the recent elevations to their Lordships' 110" 5e .,,,s Or d sense unconstitutional. He considered it u n k,boor o l pr , ,per, and unconstitutional, that any W WI tle d li allowed an opportunity of giving two votes te bh , question in mffe;ent places. He hoped the p l° , l , o os the head of Government would yet return to , 1 - 04 sentiments he had once expressed—that be ° o l his pledge by standing by his order ; that, throdleoctLi would adopt that line of policy which W° ll , / , 1 ,100 10 :0 4 ' He also hoped that no further attempts u es t d i t g ' a e e n i t ' f f r CE uri c ea si bn ic . : ( l o s: i country through its dangers, and that he Weon`V t measure which he ought never to have brOtigl, Ord wOUld I ; O r d use the Sovereign's name to promote a ni essnr on ti ' f l tive of the Constitution. It was most ivor i f fe celp 4 indecorous to lay together the name of the li e f ro ), the sovereignty of the people.—(Hear.) I) l ir, against it as most unconstitutional. He like' tli e ppr, against the style and nature of the appeal Di d t be tl f, Earl had made to the Right Rev. Bench. v A i sear d V Earl dare to suppose that the Right Revere" 7,50 1 not guided and actuated by feelings of bonotirwhi It was a most unconstitutional proceeding . „ s ocks any Peer doubt that the courage, and e rw '. l- Of/ honour of that Right Reverend Bench were e t enduring as his own ?—( Hear.) He would ° fir,/ their Lordships with any farther observatis°s:o; glad that he had risen to d e cl a r e his inten tioo this B;11, and be was happy in being able t A e d,_.r he J° l humble prayer to the Noble Earl at the bea7 0 7:71,14 1 , v a e n r Ll n e( m n.md e o n nG t ieo t n o ptE. rtconsider the subject under d''? pause before he farther attempted to urge their I'lo to a step which could not be recalled...--( ocer : cooe fr i e ll a tc E n a ch a ii % d vas L l o o r u d dl l y l:T il n e t t r o Gs,, his and neither appeared disposed to give will' e a , The Marquis of CLEVELAND then W I nf d eo i e n tiT g i tni t oig o e nsoDufbffue:trihei Noble Goderich be heard. e 1 Another NOBLE LORD moved that the el Colleague, d. I rd O s N op D then roser ani jor e'-i rLV III I Noble h i o ll t ? vas fusion, and explained that he wished to si ll to fr eog b. question. On obtaining a hearing, be 1W , t thef tp for ra this cession from that side of the House, wh ile ti been beard in defence of the Bill. o bserl in t) Lord HADDINGTON said he bad 50 0: ', Ole ble r to make in answer to the Noble Mare;ois ken of E, s and thought the Noble Lord might have oll e poke ? Pr He would, however, in answer to the 1 146 ., b p ori i Three e e Minister Peers i atdhl apposite, ri d ; gcou:th:a.:a. le r: b e ' OO °r' ode o I: 4 ; 1 JJ peal, give way to the Noble Viscount Wl` y sure.—(Hear, hear.) be , already had the misfortune to rise twice d u ring_ t ono o 4 at the same time with Noble Friends of his, t o ut ael, Lord GODERICH then rose and obse rve t h is I le ) 1 hid given way ; and if he had not on the p. r l etl adopted a simil it line of .conduct, be trusted b ib for this reason be deemed presumptuous 111';,;,,Ail ships.—(Hear, hear.) During the incidental ' O ll9 which took place, he had offer ed no cpinr i l; • Ol f ii there were u ndoubtedly many . things to e g come forward and brea k silence. Still he ha°30.51 in abstaining from taki n g p art in these conv.er:;:feellol sid ec ing that he was acting i n unison Witt'. 010 the House, and bel ievin g it was the course to: w oo? to keep down , in th e ir minds, ever y feeling ; too , 7 0 i give any other tone to a discussion so no w f e el . 0 4t derable anxiety to express his opinions upon. 01 0,, s ti and he was the more anxious to do so a t tna ,hie b P io when he remembered - the remarkable words ! ven iald that of calm deliberation. He did, been used by a Noble Earl on a preceding riled how ever, tbe o w" a speech which had received .much well-me A - 0W —words which went to attribute to the v"