The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-25 00:00:00

Nth the objects which were to he attained. The usage ' s rrs long time had been, that no scholars should vote *l a) were not on what is called the foundation. The "jilt however, sets this right, and restores the ancient Practice, which allowed the whole of the scholars to exer !le the right of electing a representative. If they were •" a dmit the Masters of Arts, it would be an invasion of b'"b'sCharter, and, at the same time, render the number of Charter, inconveniently large. He believed that the a'umber Would then he near 5,000, and that must render `se ele ct i ons so tumultuous, an d , f rom t h e voters b e i ng `se a great distance, so expensive, that he thought it li a nld be anything but an improvement. According to present arran!ement, there would be bout thre er LNI . hund re d voters. The Hon. Memb a er, when . he . 1 b tied so strongly in favour of the right of Catholics to b s tea seemed to forget that the charter of Trinity College . 4 ' granted for the support and extension of the Protest religion. The Hon. Member for Waterford probably n o ught the Catholic religion the better religion. He 117. Crompton) thought otherwise. He thought the religion the better; and it should be recollected. L XI the number of Catholics who had graduated, and i f " Would continue to graduate in Trinity College, that } a t he plan of the Hon. Member in allowing the Masters 0 Yale was adopted, the Catholics would certainly return belti.o.lic Members. The arguments of the Hon. Mem aid not go against the Bill so much as it went to the h lersion o f the charter of the Colege. The obstacle t o t he cou rse propose d b y t h e H on . Mosher was to b e )1• 114(1 in the oath ; and , if the Hon. Member would bri ng 11 Bill co remove th a t oa th, he cou ld u n d ers t an d t h e t a °4 * Member's object, but he could not understand the it 'i tt e etion as an argument against the Bill. Having thus th to reply to some of the objertions urged against lie.would now merely say that it was, in his a - , 4l °'; ealeul.ted to avert revolution, nut to produce *) and h e was confident that the bettefits the people 1 4 411 1 derive from it must associate the Noble Lord who ?itZiuced it to that House, and the name of that other le Lord who was known to have drawn it up, with „Ca l ory and p rosper i ty o f t h e i r country , an d t h at t h ey 1 1 go down to poste r ity a m o ng it s grea t es t b ene f ac - Ze-(Hear, hear.) IC I % O'CONNELL, is explanation, said that ts.e Hon. 4 : ll ber for Saltash (Mr. Crompton), bad prov e d him kta at all events , a sufficiently good Protestant to repre !the most Prote-tans University.--(A laugh.) gir kh C. WETHERELL, although impar congressus in kk" o ntest between two such able and learne.l prisons as 1 3 :',' 8 olicitorsG enera l f or Ireland and the Hon. Member 1,1 W aterford, y e t h e w as una bl e to res i s t th e tempt a ti on 4 , 1 '." 41 g a lance with the Learned Solicitor on one point largument Member for Saltash, the Solicitor-General for a g ds had concluded his speech by a reference to the Iliktuity of the fame of the founders of the Reform Bill. pf 'Memb ers o f t h at H ouse h a d h ear d o f a certa i n worthy i4ttniquity, wile, in order to obtain immortality, had ba t , down the Temple of Ephesus. He did not kn o w k at kind of immortality he obtained, but some such im k:ttality was that which the Hon. and Learned Gentle (l? was disposed t o con f er on th e au th ors o f t h e Bill .— li's', and a laugh.)—ln some such manner the Hon. 1 4 ,: her for Saltash himself was brought over from Ire ,to rep resent t h e b orough of Saltash, in order that he gitel,t followup the true Ephesian and imm o rt a li s i ng pr i n . , by burning d o w n th e b oroug h b e represente d .—( A 44: 1 .) The instances of this kind of Ephesian confla ea.°4 were not, however, coefined by the preseet (e ne t to Melt Members. There was his Hon. and kla t Zed Friend, th e Member for Bletchingley; Le w as W th of those Ephe s i a n con fl ag r a t ors ; h e was anot h er tla - I l s e refor mers , th ese restorers ; who were brought into a, () use for th e purpose o f s h ow i ng t h at t h ey ought not 4,14 there. Then there was the Learned Lord Advocate. i ii h ad also been brought in for the sante purpose ; io clos e th e avenues t o th e H ouse aga i nst all n il ,' Attorn e y s an d Solicitors-General, and aga i nst all Ve Lord s Ad vocate ; and, i n short against all fu ll:4l4n of talents and genius. Lastly, but not least of Ephesian conflagrators, was the Hon. and Learned a l,p oer for Milbourne Port, who on a late occasion had bly (1 44, 1 sentiments as well conceived as they were forci late ! l ivered. H e (Si r C. W et h ere ll) h a d pecul i ar plea ;it if that Hon. a n d L earne d G ent l eman say, iby it an former occasions, he might have shossn himself k d Warn and intemperate and violent, he had given up, kid %id not return to that agitating system. The Hon. !tt 'earned Gentleman, the Member for Milboarne Port 's ou gh why it should be called a port the First Lord of Admiralty alone knew) was a splendid example of who h.td been nig the boron brought in for the purpose of disfran ha ghs which they represented, for the put.- ');, °f t of destroyin g t h e i r own seats ; f or t h e pur talllt proving that their b e ing in the House was the S ht ut corruption. T o a ll these Hon. Individ ua l s h e ,4„ () justly apply the maxi m o f the anc i ent wr i ter:— Sa".°4lei exempl um plusquam ratio." It w as i mpos - Ikthtl:tlittening to them not to feel that they exhibited, tta l h i P °van personal qualities, the most brilliant and irre i t t , e argument against the very measure which they l‘itsttsstlyneating.—(Hear.) He trusted, however, that vitae would long have the pleasure of hearing these i l a ik :nd Lea rne d G entlemen—that they would long have k tu atee of th e H on . M em b er f or S a l tas h, an d t h e e ltt nti Learned Member Milbourne Port, notwith f t hobe Hon. and L e ar ne d G en tl em en had been (Ith'et o ver from I re l an d an d put i nto E ng li s h b oroug h s , p i lla n PurPose of prov i ng w i t h great ability that they 4. t' ) have been returned to the House of Com , t hem And here h e w i s h e d to as k hi s H on . an d L earne d t o Itletnber f o r Bl e t c hi ng l e y, f or w h ose high cha in h.nd attainments no man had a greater respect Ity: 111 ,, s elf, how h e cou ld conten d th a t the opinion t s it th -r of Reform was univers a l i n th e country , it • lie e Uni vers i ty of Cambridge had petition e d a ga i nst Y , ( Sir k C. W e th e r e ll) b e l onge d to t l ie ot h er Univer iulellie e " had been supp o s e d t o b e t oo sens iti ve on matters t ,the Monarch, the Church, aid the Peerage; as eh never heard that the University of Cambrid g e th at tt able with being over suspicious on such points. 11 .brit it,,:ajversity had prepared a petition, which had "., but w hi c h, b y some acc id ent , per h aps —f or ethb er ' 4 o from imputing any impropriety to the Hon. tet le , for that University—had not found its way to t er i n t , e i the H ouse . I t w as lik e a l os t l e tt er , cr a Nd b ." Dead Letter Office; and he had no doubt it h mtn ' l O4 . "P some day or other. Whenever it did so, 'b „ Learn e d F r i en d, th e M e mb e r f o r BI t c hi ne ly, l!hat i Z b ' a h lY abst a i n from vilifying that learned and ‘,,, eu ,body of persons, by saying that the feeling lar-ogand was unanimous in favour of [reform. n f'w dvert to the immediate topic before the el au the Bill which had b roug h t i n b y t h e R i ght ,aao'''f Secretary for Ireland—the revolutionary Bill; t U gh What was now propose d was ca ll e d b y t h e .I.\.hreata t oration, in his dictionary the word was revon •;4raferhad intended to-solicit the attention of the House Oa h e nce to the topics which had been so admirably taea4 the upright, a bl e , an d exper i ence d Metnaer for of I) ° l 4et. By the articles of the Union with 4 t e numb e r of Members from that MUD , ry was .411 tvili hun dred. By the articles of the antecedent ILttNot: Scotland, the number of Members fixed for Buai'ts Was forty-five. Those unions %vere, to all 1 4: 441 t„i Purposes, t n o t merely i Acts i,h o w f as Par t t h i a at t ne t ri h t e t , , t o a 41 erolier ; s tsht7pulated basis of f as w the fair proportion to n tat C ountries ought to bear to the whole repre ' I R e f or , appealed to the Honourable and Learned and L Nti aresborough, whether this was not the t a e w uather it Was competent to the House of Com p:" down tteae federal unions and politic:al trea \lttitich."h" they wee not final and conclusive? Now ti tale tl e ° te n e o f sixty-two Members from the House, not d c' l , h ut q la proportion from England, Scotl.nd, an f ri , l solely from England, was an outrageous de f. b inthe principle of the Union. Let the argu 'llsa sad r * Mr. Fox and Mr. Windhatn, on tiee t`sti,atholic F • tam, be remembered. It . attanaipa lat een Over again urged by them, that the propor aitaf, the Irish and English Members of the House -43 tv 4 hn a ould rend er i nnox i ous an y i n f us i on t h at NiJui,,PPrehend e d of Catholic M em b ers. But this 1 4 : 1 )t o .) When th e main question again came under dis tllleatilhtich he would call the attention of the House; pt ae, t rii "' make it th e su bj ec t b o th of inq u i ry an d I, lll e, tilat loPping off of sixty-two Protestant Mem tl7'mse was, he maintained, untenab:e in pin t e, h littret, o peration u-f it would be stoat detrimental Qi tt Y of the Protestant Church. Ile could not aZa l Y,At ta , T'olutionary Bill should thus deprive them t siel e . ' le athers. The Hon. Member tor Preston Nbut: t r li e urt'd his constituents from disfranehise itaa 'eath t was a kind of political selfishness. The ra ae • .. I 4,04 it!, his princip!e+, to whom popularity • Wh n'tot inw hich he d • and had his ktt at ;tillvh, ' m ein be sa id to b e t h e vox popu a in that O t A 6 4 i t 4: ti t . l;: st Was so in his ow n opinion,. if not in tat yg e eenth er ought not to have satisfied himself 4 4,..‘rpi °l Preston, b ut oug h t to h ave ta k e n care dyes similarly c i rcumstance d . I s was unqu'es ' tia, e „10 at e article s o f U n i on with Scotland an d w i t h I te:ith e t adnait of thi s numer i ca l change i n t h e pro tlivhim,tenahere f rom t h ose co u ntries It ha d cc dad4lo i ii4l 37orever, that th e r e m i g h t b e ot h er reasons • e i't s d his M ajesty ' s G overnment to propose r eek ,• In commerce there was what was to trade," Now strange things were said by some people of the House of Commons. He would not come within a hundred leagues of what was said by some people of the House of Commons. But when it was seen that sixty-two Members «•ere to be lopped off from the representation of England, and that, on the orening of the question, three, but now it appeared five, were to be added to the representation of Ireland, it might be suspected that an opportunity was afforded to Ministers of playing tricks by private bargains and negotiations ; and of using the "stork in trade," in their hands for the pure pose of jobbing here and jobbing there, as might be con venient. The Right Hon. Mover of the Bill under consi deration had talked of the charter of the University of Dublin. It was the only time during the whole of the discussion that the supporters of Reform had mentioned charters. It could hardly be known that any charters were in existence, or that any charters were about to be destroyed. But now, after twelve days' deliberation, there came this miserable postscript, in which the necessity of consulting charters was insisted upon ! Lord ALTHORP observed that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman might call the proposed measure what be liked. The people of England knew that it was not revo lutionary, or they would not support it. The people of England had no wish for revolution, and they would not support any proposition whit+ they believed had a ten dency to promote it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made a great deal of the Cambridge petition. He was sight in doing so ; for he (Lord Althorp) believed that it was the only petition against the Reform Bill which had emanated from any thing like a public meeting. It was a rare exception to the general feeling of the country. As to its not twine" yet been presentel, the fact was that his Hon. Friend had not received it in time to be enabled to do so. The arguments which had been urged by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman against Reform, were pre cisely similar to those which had been urged against Ca tholic emancipation, and against the improvement of the Scottish burghs. As to the argument which the Hun. and Learned Member had built upon; the proportion of the Members of the different counties of England, Scot. land, and Ireland. it was rendered nugatory by the con sideration that the proportion did not exist, as it respected Scotland, when the Union with Ireland took place.— That was a sufficient answer to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, but he would hilly say that the union of the three countries having been completed, and the whale having become one kingdom, he did not conceive that Parliament ought to be stopped in their plans of refor mation by any consideration of the kind advanced by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, therefore, talked of the danger which would result from diminishing the proportion of English Members, as compared with the .Members for Scotland and Ireland, his apprehension was destitute of foundation. It was natural that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman should revert, by way of argument, to the Catholic ques tion ; but the time for such an illustration was passed by. The House and the country had seen what the event of Catholic emancipation had been; and the Hon and Learned Gent'eman would not he able now to drown the cry for Re'orm by any cry of " No Popery !"—(Loud cheers.) The Hun. and Learned Gentleman asked why the number of the Members of that House was to be re duced ? The answer was—to get rid of the boroughs which ought not to he represented. He begged to ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in return, whether he would not have attacked his Majesty's Ministers if, instead of proposing to disfranchise those boroughs, they had availed themselves of the circumstance to increase the balance on the popular side? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman asked if Isis Majesty's Government had really made up their minds to persevere in the proposition of cutting off sixty boroughs. His answer was yes.—(Loud cries of hear, hear, hear.) They would listen to no compro mise; they considered the disfranchisement of rotten bo roughs, which they had proposed, essential to the public welfare; and they trusted that the House and the country would stand by them in carrying it into effect.—(Long continued cheers. )—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had charged the Hon. Member for Preston with taking care of the electors of the borough which he represented, and not of any others. The question which had been put by the Hon. Member for Preston was occasioned by the statement of the Hon. and Learned Member for Wey mouth, that the wording of the clause in the Bill did not secure to those who had at present the right of voting for boroughs that right for their lives. He (Lord Althorp) did not know whether it was so or not ; but if it did not do so, it (lid not express the view which the proposers of the Bill took of the subject, and the clause must he altered. Sir HENRY HARDINGE said, he had a great respect for the Noble Lord (Althorp) ; but he bad not the slightest respect for the measure. He considered it was a revolu• tionary measure—that it changed the whole Constitution of England, by disfranchising men against whom no guilt had been proved, and confi•cating chartered privileges. The chnnge in 1688 was called a revolution ; but, after all, it was only a change of dynasty—th e substitution of the House of Brunswick for the Stuarts. The whole re p: esentation of the country was left unaltered ; ancient pri vileges were maintained, and among the privilege', the rotten boroughs; were preserved in the same manner as be fore. The object of the revolution of 1688 was to main tain things as they had been. The object of the revolu tion of 1831 was to change all things. The Noble Pay master had stated, that the principle upon which this Bill proceeded, was that oficonferring the franchise upon com bined population and property. But he contended that that principle was violated by allowing more Members to Tavistock, Bedford, Malton, and Caine, than to Block borne, Bradford, or Bolton-le-moor; and he declared that when the revolution of 1831 was consummated, and the Noble Lord's delegates were assembled, each Member would be trying to get a greater representation for his constituents, and this struggle they could not stop, because they would have violated all charters—all that was before deemed sacred ; and as the right of an Act in 1833, or any future year, could not be denied, when they admitted the right of a similar Act of change iu 1831. The Noble Lord's plan would be sure to he superseded whenever a more fashionable plan aas proposed. He louked upon the Bill as mischievous, because it was calculated to erect a bar between the lower and the middle classes. The man who lived by the sweat of his brow was degraded, and must feel himself so; and when he did, excitement would in fallibly prevail to an extent which would force Ministers 'to new concessions, and render it impossible for a Re formed Parliament to put a stop to the popular deniand.— He maintained that it was perfectly evident that this mea sure was supported by very many pet sons, merely because of the facilities it afforded then in the prosecution of ulte rior objects. The Hon. Member for Waterford had stated, in a - letter to the people of Ireland, that this Bill was the forerunner of the repeal of the Union, and the llon. Mem bar for Middlesex, in a letter to the inhabitants of Argyll, and another Scotch county had said, ,‘ do not stir the question of the ballet, or that of universal suffrage; praise the Government; express your confidence in the Govern ment, and do not move for the present."—(Hear.) This, he submitted, was strong proof that, at least, those Hon. Members had ulterior objects, and that they only viewed the present measure in reference to the influence it would have on that which was to be gained hereafter. He thought it could not be disputed ordenied, that this measure Was one which could have no permanence ; and a mei= cure of constant change must be a measure of revolution. It had been supported upon the grounds, that it wits ne cessary to infuse a greater portion of democracy into the House of Commons. This be denied. The democratic portion of the House hail greatly increased since the Revo. lotiom In the reigns of the first and second George, 250 Members of that House enjoyed 400 places, many of which► were sinecures. Now, out of the whole 658 Mem bers, there were only 72 who held office under Govern ment.—(Cheers.)—He was not disposed to believe that the Government had been swayed by other than patriotic, although mistaken motives. But he declared that the Ministers were innovators, and those who opposed them truly conservators. The Ministers had agitated England upon this question of Reform, so that there was no great difference between them and the Hun. Member for Water ford, save the very objectionable manner in which that Hon. Member knew he (Sir 11. Harding.) always thought he had proceeded in his agitation.-_(L ou ,( cheers.)—No thing could, in his opinion, be m ore mischievou s th an th e effect of this measure in Ireland. In that country five sixths of the property was Protestant, while five-sixths of the population was Roman Catholic. How, then could they apply their principle cf combined property and population to Ireland, when Citholic population so far exceedei Catholic property.—(Lothl cheers.)—lf this Bill passed, it would be thenceforward impossibl e for any Protestant to be returned for any place in Ireland, unless he had two-thirds of the Catholic population in his favour. —(Eirar.)—The number of vottrs in Dublin, although: stated by an Hon. Member at three thousand, wad, in reality, double that number. But what %could be the eff , et of the Bill ; it would swell those 7,000 voters into 18,000, 14,000 of whom were Roman Catholics. Now, under this altered state of things, he apiie 'led to the Hon. Member for Waterford who would be the Member? As suredly not the Hon. Grntleman who now represented it. The same thing would apply to the twenty-four boroughs of Ireland ; all of which would infallilily return Catholic Members. Now, at the period of the Union these twenty four boroughs were reserved for the purpose of protecting and preserving Protestant property in Ireland; and in the debates upon the occasion these boroughs were expressly mentioned as close boroughs, and the reasons for which they were maintained were declared. How, be asked, .was it possible, under the new system, that Protestant talent could be represented in that House? Take the law, for instance, how could such men as the Hon. Member for Drogheda hope to be returned—when nobody could so be unless he belied his feeling, and turned apostate to his principles ? Charges had been math., he observed, against the late Administration, to the effect that they had main tained themselves in office by means of patronage. These he indignantly repelled; the Duke of Wellington's Go vernment had done away with 4,050 places, which amounted to 600,0001. a year. There was therefore, but little patronage for the Noble Lord to act upon, or to claim credit for reduction. If Administrations were to be maintained by patronage, bow was it that Lord Goderich's Government could not stand ?—( Hear, hear.) And he now asked the Neble Lord (Althorp) if he were disposed to be corrupt (which he was not). could lie carry on his Go vernment by protronage ? No ; it was a vulgar error—a vile calumny, to say that the Duke of Wellington's Govern ment, or any other Government of late years, was carried on by pitronage.—(Cheers.). It was rumoured that the present Administration wished, by the passing of this Bill, to annihilate Tory power—with a view that a pre ponderating party might exist which would be enabled to retain them in office. He did not mean to charge them with such a design ; but certainly this measure was, of all others, the most calculated t 3 excite suspicions of this kind. But in fact there was scarcely a person of pro perty, Whig or Tory, who did not express alarm at the measure. If he might allude to what occurred in another place, he would observe, that within the last twenty-four hours one of the highest authorities in the State—an in dividual greatly distinguished in that House, said that be was sorry the plan had gone so far—that he would have been glad if the change had been less, although he feared the country would not have been satisfied with it.—(Hear.) This assertion wss given upon the authority of those faith ful means of information which they all had on their breakfast table. He only knew it by the medium of the gentlemen who reported the debates in Parliament. In conclusion, he declared the measure was one of fatal mis fortune to Ireland, and of great injury here. He had been called on to express his opinions by the cheers of the Hon. Member. He never would sacrifice the dictates of his reason, his honour, and his conscience, to fear of VT public or popular resentment.—(Cheers.) This was a question in which the Constitution was concerned, and therefore, when he said he would oppose it in every stage, by all fair means in his power—in every legitimate and proper manner—he trusted he should not be accuse] of factious motives. And he considered that every man who wished well to his country. should give his opposition to that unfortunate and fatal Bill.—(Cheers.) The LORD ADVOCATE said, that he should have supposed from the Hon. Me.oher's speech that this was the tenth night of the discussion of the Bill, instead of the first of that upon the Bill propel ly before the House. R-volution—that ass ful and ominous sound—had been repeatedly uttered by the Hon. Member ; but what was positively meant by revolution ? If it meant innovation, let them see what portion of the Constitution was un touched. But first kt them consider what was this Con stitution as decribed by all the theoretical write:s; was it not ti e powers of monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy, happily blended and tempered together. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), in his very seductive speech, when expatiating in impassioned language on all the advantages of this Constitution, hail quoted those illustrious writers with which every student was more or less familiar; and remarked, that although the genius of the great philosoe phew had conceived such a form of Government, he con sidered it impossible in practice ; and that the sarcastic and sententious Tacit'', had in bitterness spoken of a Con stitution thus prized as the perfection of Constitutions, though be doubted its practicability ; and presuming even that, despaired of its existence for any long period of time. The Constitution was formed of King, Lords, and Com mons. Let them now see how it was affected by the mewure. The prerogatives of the Crown and the privi e leges of the Aristocracy were left untouched, and it was ad mitted the Bill rendered the representation of the people more true. The King and his power then were not directly to he touched. The privileges of the Lords were not altered or affected by the measure. Would it then be said, that -the correcting fauits of the popular representation was a - revolution? They had then to see whether the alteration in the mode of returning Members to Parliament could he said, not Justly, but even plausibly, to be a revolution or alteration of the Constitution. Two separate charges had been blended, rather skilfully, to distract the public opinion and to throw on the measure obscurity, not light. He wished to know if the revolutionary vice consisted in. the disfranchisement of the boroughs, or in the alteration of the constituency and qualification. They could not, pro perly, be taken together. Take the disWanchisement first, and suppose no alteration had been made respecting the boroughs, and that sixty or seventy of them, with five hundred inhabitants each, continued to send representatives to Parliament, while the great towns in the neighbour hood of those boroughs, averaging a population of 50,000 each, remained unrepresented. Now, he asked, would the Learned Gentleman opposite say that there would be any revolution or change in the Constitution by the transference of the right of return from these boroughs to the great towns? They would have the same number of Members in that House and the same qualification for the electors—. die only difference being, the electors would exist in greater number, and the Members would have a greater variety of interests, and interests on a large scale, to represent which imperatively demanded their care. In this hypothetical case would any anon think the Constitution was endan gered or a revolution commenced, of which no human eye could see the end, by the transference of the right of elect ing representatives from decayed bornuehe to thriving towns? He would now come to the next point ? Was it tl e proposed change in the qualification of electors that constituted the revolutionary vice ? This change, it was contended, would open the way to an inroad of more de mocracy in the Constitution, by making the election of Members more depend upon the lower classes of the State. And here mark the inconsistency of the Hon. Members who argued thus, when they, at the same time, so pite ously bewailed the disfranchisement of a small portion of the very lowest class. They complained of the cutting off of this small portion of the lowest class—yet they, at the same moment, declared the measure would open the way to a too great infusion of democracy. They admit that the persons to be disfranchised are of a loWer class than imy who gain electoral power by the,Bill, yet they will not allow that we become safer as we approached the level. Now the County Members, it was always understood, held a higher place in the general estimation than the Mem- hers for boroughs, although the qualification by which elec tors were entitled to vote for the county - amounted only to 405., and although rustic persons were neither more re spectaide or intedig.nt th,n the inhabitants of towns. Besides, the forty-shilling" qualification in the towns con (cried upon the holders the right of voting in the beet and most honourable part of the constituency ; and therefore it was evident that the fixing a qualification of 101. instead of 40s. could not, in the counties, increase the democratic influence; for no one would dream of saying that the inter mixture of ten pound freeholders would debase or pau perize a forty-shilling constituency. On the contrary, it was plain they were giving greater respect to the constituency in the counties, arid by no means increasing democratic influence. Therefore, it could only he in the boroughs the mischief was effected. But he really could not see how democratic influence could be extended in the lar4er boroughs by adding richer persons to those who al readY,bad—say a 40s. qualification. In fact, the only mode was in the small Corporations; and could it possibly be said that the Constitution WC° endangered by taking away the right of nomination from close Corporations? The great effect of the Bill would be, that wealthy and respect able men would be let into the right of voting instead of Corporations, that were neither rich nor noble. As to what had been urged respecting the nominees of the close boroughs, he observed that he would not alvance to the opinion that they hadk!en alwk s spies in a hostile camp— really the representaives of the Aristocracy and Crown— but condescending to sit there under the humble gall) of repres.n'zllves of the peop . e. and ever voting for the main tmunce of aristocratic privileges and not for the advantage of the nation. The Right Hon. Baronet had made a list of some 20 or 30 great naMes in a period of 40 years ; but he regarded the proportion as by no means great, consider ing the number of unhonoured names that had been in the sante space of time placed upon the list of the House of Commons as representative s of these boroughs. The truth was, these nominees did not form a corps d' elite they were not Knights Templars in disguise—they were not the champions in that House of the Crown and the Aristocracy—they did n come in as th e a ll oy to demo cratic influence—they did not stand f ort h to stay the tide of democracy, ;,for the close boroughs had sent in the greatest agitators. The aristocracy did not, like the an cient Nobbsse of France, enjoy privileges galling and op pressive, and offensive to the people—privileg e s which de graded and threw the great body of the nation into a vexa tious inferiority. The prerogative of the Crown w as not of a n a t ure t o press heavy on the people, and therefore the Crown and the Aristocracy needed nut the support of the nominees of close boroughs, nor were they defended by them- . No, they did not represent either the order of the Nobles or the disposition of the King in that House, but they represented the passions and prejudices, and the ad verse and corrupt motives of a certain number of indivi duals. Who were the Peers?—They were gentlemen who were dignified with hereditary titles—they exercised a separate legislative power, and it was their duty accord ing to the scheme of the Constitution, to defend alike the CroWn from the encroachment of the democracy, and the people from an oppressive exercise of the influence of the Crown. The Members for these boroughs were neither re quired to fulfil this duty, nor did they in fact undeitake any such task. They were not placed there to defend the preroga tives of the Crown, but were in fact persons who were in tended to maintain the power of the. Alinisters.—(Hear, hear.)—These boroughs did not represent any particular order or any one of the three estat,s, and they ought not —they represented individual interest, and influence, end caprice, and they obstructed the entrance into that House of the real representatives of the'people. The nature and object of these popular representatives was much mistaken. They were not sent there in the spirit of a wild demo cracy to overturn or weaken the rights of the Crown and the Aristocracy, but with their knowledge and spirit to represent in that House the knowledge and spirit of their constituents, who were taught that they formed part of a Monarchy adorned with an ancient Peerage, end sus tained and directed by the magnificence of a simple ex ecutive. The duty of the House of Commons was to re sist, on the one hand, the advances of an Oligarchy, and on the other the progress of an executive tawards despotism ; but they would fail in the discharge of at least the first of these duties, if their members were nominated by one of the bodies upon which it was their object to act as a check —or if the majority of their number was under the influ ence of the House of Peers. That House did not inter fere with the rights and privileges of the Peers, by send ;rig their nominees into the other House of Parliament to modify their unmitigated aristocracy; and equally were the Members of the Commons House of Parlia ment entitled to be free kern the influence of that aristocratical body. It was thus that he had been taught to understand the principles of the British Constitution, and those principles appeared to him likely to he best se-' cured by the measure which was now under the consi deration of Patti Intent. He should now take the oppor tunity of making one remark on the supposed inde pendence of those Members who sat in that House for close boroughs. He should say nothing of the obvious objection to the perfect freedom from controul of those persons who called themselves the representatives of the people, nor of the necessity and justice of the people pos sessing some degree of influence over the conduct of the men they chose as their representatives; but be should rake that opportunity of d eclaring that these borough Members, with but a few exceptions, were, as the prac tice of that House demonstrated, infinitely more under trammels than were the representatives of the most popu lous places in the empire.—(Hear, Leer, bear. )-11e had great reliance on the mass of the people, and for that rea son he did not fear, as some Hon. Member did, a mea sure that would in same degree give power and influence to the mass of the people. He repeated, that he had great reliance on them ; arid he would tell the Hou-e that if they did not rely on the body of the people they would find themselves miserably deceived and mistaken ; and that if it was true that there was a taint on the character of the people, that taint' must be removed by instruc tion, and could not be got rid of by those precautions, even the mechanism of which had not been explained to them, and which, in any time of danger and necessity, would be found but a cobweb barrier to the progress of those they were intended to oppose. Sir R. PEEL said, that whatever were the merits of the speech of the Learned Lord, and he was not in the least interested in denying those merits, among the num ber would not be found that of recalling their attention to the subject of that night's debate, which was the nature of the Bill for the Reform of the Irish representation.— (Hear, hear, hear.) The Learned Lord admitted that he had not the least possible knowledge of Ireland ; that he was utterly incapable of forming a judgment as to any one of the clauses of the Bill ; but then he was resolved skil fully to interpose en this debate a powerful argument upon that which w a s of mu c h grea t er i mpor t ance then the sub ject immediately under di-emssion, namely, on the tendency of the general measure of Parliamentary Reform. He quarrelled not with the Learned Lord for using this op portunity for such a purpose, even after the nine nights' debate which the House had bad upon the subject. The Learned Lord curiously enough had differed from those who supported the Bill on account of its increasing the influence of the mass of the people, when he said that a chief merit of-the Reform measure in his eyes was, that it would diminish the influence of the demo cracy, by adding to the aristocratic array in that House. The Learned Lord, however, had not favoured the House with any very distinct account of the mode by which such a change was to be effected. Some Hon. Members, in describing the measure, had spoken of it as revolutionary —he (Sir R. Peel) would not use such a term, for he did not wish to gain that petty advantage which was some times to be obtained by the use of epithets; but he was fully prepared to support that opinion which those who used that phrase meant to express, namely, that the ulti mate effect of the measure was to produce a most exten sive change---a change which, in fact, amounted to the creation of a new Constitution. He would now see if that conclusion was not justified. What was this measure? What e would be its effects? I n th e fi rs t pl ace i t wou ld dis turb the relation which now existed between the number of representations of the three different parts of the Em pire.—(Hear ) The Bill added to the number of repre sentatives fOr Scotland--it added to the number for Ire land—it added somewhat to the number for Wales ; but it materially diminished the number of representatives for England.—(Hear, hear.) While it chan ge d this relation of numbers, it changed 'also in every county of England, Scotland, and Ireland, and the' nature of the constituted body. It changed too the limits of almost every town and city in the empire, and the nature of their constituency. There were only fifty cities that were not altered in their limits and in their constituency ; but great as these changes were, there was still this greater change that, for the fu ture, the Bill selected one class of voters for the whole empire, with the same sympathies for good.or for bad, and liable throughout to the same impulses, and the whole re presentation of England, in ten years hence, would depend upon this class. He would not say whether this was a revolutionary measure or not, but he must confess that it was a measure which would produce very great changes, and the effect of which lie did not, and could not, know, nor even anticipate; If they had done all they had omitted to do, it would be iinpossible for him to know the eff•ct it would produce ; this, however, he did know—that they had gone far to destroy those old associations and pre judices that bad been the safeguard of this country, that had supported it under difficulties, that had afforded it strength and hope to cope with 'all disadvantages, and that had fortified the feeble contrivances all imian institations. He repeated - that it was impossible to know the consequences of a measure that would go to effect such a destruction. The Learned Lord might disregard the prophecies of those who opposed the measure, and might siy that they who made them bad no grounds to go upon—(Hear, from the Ministerial Benches)—bot be asked what security there was in the principle of the measure that would render it permanent. The proposers of this measure were, indeed, not " bit-by.bit" Reformers—(A laueh)—they Would not be satisfied but with a -chati , j h e of a considerable effect ; but then they said that that Change would only be made once for all. He, on the contrary, denied that this sup posed permanency was the principle of their measure. They-struck off sixty-two Members at once ; they disposed in another way of 'forty-seven other Members, and then they affected to say that this system was permanent. B u t permanent it could sled be. The favourers of the measure talke I of its permanence as if they did not - recollect that there was still one great point which the Bill did not em brace, and which had many supporters. The petitioners in favour of the m ea sure, acted upon the advice of th e lion. Member for .Middlesex, and concealed the demand. for the ballot. The exact words were suppressed in the paragraph, but could the House doubt that the advice in tended to he given was Say n othing of the ballot at. present—keep that p o i n t quit e quiet. Get this new in strutnent, and you will. have a great advantage :n after wards extorting all the others.--( Hear ? bear.)" Change was the principle of th e Bill ; and in two years hen ce , with what argum e nt s d rawn f ro m the principle of this Bill could the Legislature- answer the claims that would b e made upon them from places, the inhabitants of which thought themselves entitled to representatives. He would take one instance—Bury, in Lancashire, the place of his na tivity. He wished not to introdeceanything personal into this discussion—h e had no connection now with that place beyond that natural affection which all men entertained for the place of their birth, and that with which their earliest recollec tions were associated.—(Hear, hear.) two years h ence he wished to know what was the enswer that could b e given to the inhabit a nts of Bury, if they were to claim representatives—if they were to say that no prescription had been allowed in favour .of the boroughs in 183 1, when the rule of population alone was acted on, and when the borough of Melton was saved . from disfranchisement solely by the 'accident of the ladies of that town having been more than usually prolific in 1921.—(A laugh.)_ The fact, he stated, was perfectly true —three ladies had had the good fortune to present their husbands with twins, and that happy circumstance saved the,plective fr inchise of the town.—(Laughter.) That was, so far as he under stood, the only ground for the preference.—(Laughter,) Now, if this principle of population was that on which the Bill was to proceed--if that principle was reary to be tarried into effect, he wished to know whether Bury, with 36,000 peoPle, would' rest satisfied without the pri vilege of having representatives, when Gateshead, with only a population of 12,000, was to send Members to Parliament? When the inhabitants of Bury came t state the fact of the number of their population, would the Parliament refuse to make the change they required ? If they did, on what. principle could they make the re fusal, especially when they had the list of the 62 reduced Members to draw upon.—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Lord asked, what objection there was. to give to the great mass of the people the power .of forming the constituency of the country, aad had stated, that the knowledge now spread among them was a guarantee that they would not abuse such a power. The Learned Lord stated that this Bill wa4, in fac', a restoration of the representation ; hut would the Learned Lord re• store the prerogative of the Crown—the veto which it had formerly exercised ? That prerogative was formerly iridis pitted. When they had established over that House an overpowering controul of the popular voice, did the Learned Lord think that lie should beahleto draw from the ancient armouries of the Constitution that rusty weapon with which the Crown had been used to contend in defence of its prerogatives.—(Hear.) He assured the Learned Lord that the prerogative of the Crown could not be put on the same footing as formerly, and that was an objection to this measure which went to increase the power of the democratical branch of the Constitution, without increas ing in a similar manner the power of the other two branches; nay, indeed, without affording them the same advantages which they formerly possessed. He re peated, that the House did not possess the power to place in the hands of the Crown that instrument, which, in times of comparative ignorance and barbarism, had been intended to be used as a check and controul upon the po pular voice. But that was not all, for the power possessed by a popular assembly was always tending to produce its own increase, and he defied the Learned Lord to show one instance in which this constant t-ndency was not distinctly manifested ; and he (Sir It. Peel), notwithstanding all that had been said about this measure not putting the House of Peers into danger, was convinced that the Leat ned Lord would find it difficult to maintain, even by sound ar guments, the right of that House against a popular assem bly that, with increased powers, should deem it fit to dis pute them.--(Hear.) When he mentioned the French re volution, he did not wish to use it as . a vulgar object of ter ror, or to refer to its worst and most terrible days; but he alluded to it in order to show how likely a popular assem bly was to insist on the extension of its own privileges, while it denied those that had been uniformly exercised by an other body. The National Assemb!y contained, probably, some men of as high talents as had ever lived.' Its mem • bars, at the time of which he was about to speak, seemed actuated by the purest motives ; and yet what had they done? The Count Alirabeau was a member of that as sembly, and at that time he had not connected himself with the Crown, or brought his patriotism into suspicion. A question had arisen as to the right of the Crown to de- . _ dare war and to make peace, and Mirabeau suggested an opinion that that was a right which was vested in the Crown. He was immediately overwhelmed with the reply of Barnave, who argued that the right was one of the utmost import ince, and ought not to be entrusted to one who might be an idiot or a child ; and so great was the effect of the reply, that on the following - day Mirabeau had to come down and complain of the suspicions which the bare suggestion of his opinion .had thrown on his pa- triotism. But he might refer even to a better authority in proof of hi• assertion. What were the impressions at this moment existing as to the course which the House of Lords would pursue on this subject? Every one took it for granted that that [-louse, constituted even as it was at present, would represent the popular voice, and that if this measure passed the House of Commons, the House of Lords had better take care how they interfered to stop its • progress.—(Hear, hear.)—He knew that it had been said the influence of the democracy in the properly popular assembly did not necessarily infer the d,struction of a more aristocratic assembly; and the Senate of America had been appealed to as a proof of the assertion.— The difference, however, between them and the House of Peers in this country, was great, for the Senate (Pc:- rived their existence from the same source as the House of Representatives, arid was there ore able to oppose a check to the deliberations of the representative body, which the House of Lords would not be able to oppose to the Corn tnons, when they became expressly the organs of the po pular will.—(Hear, hear.)--But the Learned Lord thought that the influence of the aristocracy would not be ,:iminished. Friendly ties might still exist between the landlord and the tenant, and it might be possible that the latter would adopt the opinions and act upon the wishes of the former ; but if that was the case, .what became of that rule which declared the interference of the Peers un constitutional? He was afraid that - this was one of those cases in which " the satire destroyed the syllogism, and the argument was lost in the vituperation."--4Hear, bear, and a laugh. )—Some Hon. Members had said that this measure would increase aristocratical, others that it would in lve c r r e ea n se a, d a e s m i o t c w ra a tc s i s al influence. upposed,in These ,ow,ient w w t ith o a eac ss ii ertias other. na All depended on the question of-time. It was probab'e that in quiet times the aristocratical influence might be successfully exerted over the 101. tenants. When no tem pest had arisen—when no storm shook the Stateff—grati rude for the new privileges conferred might enable all things to go on well between the two parties; but when the storm arose—when the whole influence of the Press was directed to create popular excitement—when it made its continued appeals to the popular feelings of the voters _.of that class of Men perhaps the least aide to understand the: machinery of Government, and the most liable to be influenced in their judgment upon it—in such times as those, the popular principle of this Bid would act with overpowering effect against the interests of the landlord-, and the vessel of the State would be swamped by the hurricane, for which we had made no preparation. (Heir, hear, hear.)—Thcse consequences would not hap pen perhaps in peaceable times; but when the wave of popular opinion ran high, what were the mounds that would be able to resist it ?—(Hear, hear, Lear.)—He would now say a few words with respect to the represen tation of the boroughs. It was true, as had been stated, that men of small talents had been frequently returned for these boroughs; but. when he-read the list of twenty-five eminent, names, which in forty years had been admitted to that House by the means of those boroughs, he did so to show the arnoune, of benefit obtained by the facility thus afforded to men of talent to find their way into this House. In that list he tiad ornitted,Thy mistake and ac cident, and from no other,motive whatever, the name of Mr. Ricardo, which he was proud to' be able to add to those be had befle mentioned- 7 (11cm; hear. ) Ele had heard with delight the speech of the Hari: and Learned Gentleman; and when he did to, he felt in the enjoyment he then received, some compensation for the uneasy mo ments which the Bill that hifl placed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in that House had occasioned to him by its introduction. He felt pleased in a double point of view; for not only was he gratified with having forw-rded a measure which admitted the House to the benefit of the exercise of the talentsof the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but lie was also satisfied to see those talents withdrawn trorn popular agitation and excitement, and devoted to a cause of which they were truly worthy.— (Hear, hear, hear.) That House was the proper theatre for their displaying, and he - rejoiced to believe that they would not go back •to an arena in which they could • only be exercised • with a fatal influence on the country, if they were exercised with a view to forward the severance of the ties that now exist between the two kingdoms.—(Hear.) He trusted that such talents would not again be exercised on petty matters of Dublin police, but would be directed to acquire that distinction they must demand through their admission to the Imperial Parliament. When, hoWever, he was thus gratified by the exercise of the talents of the Hon. and Learned I Gentleman, he could not but recollect that he saw in the I as Hon. and Learned Gentleman a man who had been dis regarded by the populous town, and who had found his way into that House throisgh the rotten borough of Mil bourne Port.—(l-lear, hear.) When the country should be divided into 300 or 400 districts, be wished to know by what means a man without aristocratical influence, but possessed of the talents and acquirements of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, could hereafter acquire admission into Parliament. He spoke particul trly of the natives of Ire land, who were panting for. - admisskn into, Parliament. Did the Han. and Learned Gentleman think that he could, before his Irish constituents, breathe that sincere an I 'ele quent prayer for the prosperity of "ngland with . which he concluded his speech the other night? He feared, too, that the Han. and Learned Gentleman, if this Irish Bill was passed, might have in that country no other means of contending with a rival candidate' but the mode of agi tation, to gain the hearts and the votes of the electors; and if no third course was open to him, it was difficult to conceive a greater practical evil tban would thus be occasioned. He should reserve what more he had to say upon the principle of the Bill until the second read ing; observing, however, that if the great change of 1828 were again to make, he should be prepared to make it, although enforced by hard nece,sity, and fully con templating all its consequences. The constituent body in Ireland had thus been practically changed; and before more was done, he thought that the experiment of what had been effected ought to be allowed its full operation.— To open the franchise, and to give it to the middle classes, was neither mere nor less than to transfer power from one Itedy to another. Cod grant that the change tniglt' e latnefieial ; but the moment it aa: proposed, he saw that the effect of it would be to apportion power between the Sovereign and the physical" force of the kingdom. Ile did tut say that actual revolution would ensue, but the altera tion was so great and violent as to amount both practically and morally to a revolution. The danger was unques 64nably incurred of a greater revolution than had ever yet occurred in our history. At the same time, he did not conceal from himself that to throw out the Bill would head ta continual struggles; but the strugglea would not be less if the measure were passed, inasmuch as attempts would constantly be made to obtain more. They were inevitable ; hut to use the words of Mr. Fox, he should be a traitor to his King, to his country, and to his own conscience, if he did not prefer the maintenance of the Constitution to giving :stay to popular opiiiion—if lie did not prefer the protec tion of the real interests end privileges of the - people to sub. mission to the vehemence of that popular excitement which had been made one of the chief arguments in favour of the measure. Lord PALMERSTON observed that his Right Hon. Friend Lad unexpectedly made one of his most successful addresses ; but much as he admired his Right Hon. Friend's talents, he (Lord Pahnerston) must say that he had excited his attention and disappointed his hopes. Ha • had argued with great ability, and had even pressed into his service, all that had been advanced by the most un eompromisine enemies of Refortn. He bad contended not only against the particular measure, but against Reform in ftenerala course somewhat inconsistent with that which his Right Hon. Friend had pursued on the former ocea. Ii then opp ose d t h e Bill, on the ground th a t th e change was too extensive ;• hut he had , admitted that he would support a moderate Reform. After his speech of to. night; be (Lord Palinterstdo) kneW not towhat degree of Reform his Right Ifori•Friend was prepared to consent. Ht had adopted the highest - View of the case that had yet been taken, and had maintained that the admission of eopyholdets and leaseholders was in itself revolutionary. To a certain extent it was true ; it changed the consti tuency of the country, but it was nor, on that account, re volutionary. He wondered that it had never occurred to his Right Hon, Friend " that he had himself proposed a measure to effect a change of the most extensive character. He had talked Of the sacred nature of vested rights in beau tiful language, better calculated for the late debate than for the preSent, and had especially directed himself to an swer the speech of the Noble and Learned Lord Advocate. He (Lord Palmerston) begged to congratulate him on the safe delivery of his twin-etuch "hie address might fitly be termed, attached as it bad been tto the argument of th e Noble and Learned Lord. When his Right Hon. Friend said that ancient prejudices were to be toothed tenderly, and ancient privileges protected strenuously, he (Lord P.) wished to know on what ground he could defend the die franchisement of 170,000 forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland ? No doubt the answer would be, that it was ne cessary for the public advantage, and td pacify the public mind. How, thro e could his Right Hoe. Friend blame the present Government for proceeding upon the s one principle? Altosen of hing Standing required remedy— that remedy was afforded' by •the Bill of Reform, and the change had received the - undivided and hearty approbation of the country. Ministers were of opinion that the exist ing system of representation was not in accordance with the ancient laws of the country, and did not belong to its institutions, properly underatood ; and they hail, accord-- ingly proposed to change it, and to restore the genuine practice of the Constitution. In his alarm at re volution, his Right Honourable Friend had enu merated the number of towns, as well as counties, which would enjoy the change, and he had complained that as a Committee of the Privy Council would be con cerned in making the alteration, the measure must neees eerily be revolutionary. Of all queitions from which revolution could come, he (Lord Palmerston) least dreaded it from the Privy Council.(flear, hear.)—ln arguing this were question, theprops lt it and a d s b u e p e p n oz u o ta f ted a t e ha c t r t o b w e n e . lose Tn eo boroughs esaenr tgb u_ e f talent of the Right Honourable Gentl eman p r o cee d ed upon r th ou e gz u s p rw po e s r i e tio t t t fii a e t id th s , a ll n l d e my voters of who th : Government for ve cl ose the day ; but he (Lord Palmerston) begged to ask whea • this they the fact was really so, and tributed as much on one s id e as on t h e other?--(Cheers from the Opposition benches.)—He understood thos e cheers, prev ew :l a i t t thheey had advanced. not veil c a e n d s . wer s Neither nor any other Administration derived peculiar advantages from the existence of Scotch boroughs, while the interests of the public were most materially injured. His Right • Hon. Friend had supposed that a state of things would arise in this country similar to that which in Ireland had preceded the emancipation of the Roman Catholics. If such a state of things should arise, it would with him (Lord Palmerston) be an additional reason for dasiring the proposed change. The House would then be able more completely and effectually to controul any temporary excitement. His Hight Honourabl e Friend had ad verted to the French Convention, but he (Lord Pal- merston) contended that there was nu analogy between - the two cases. It would appear as if his Right 11c.. nourable Friend thought that the theory of the Consti-, tution was never to be brought into practice, and that the only safety for the State was to be found in a departure from that Constitution which had been praised by all writers. The French Revolution and this measure had no more resemblance than there would be between the acts of a madman and of an individual in the full posses sion of all his ftculties. His Right lion. Friend had argued that the Reform Bill would desLt oy the influenee of the House of Lords, while many who bud voted with. him had done so avowedly on the ground that another species of influence would be given to the Aristoetacy. One argument, in fact, destroyed the other, so that Han. Members nii Alt take which they pleased, but could only take one. His Right Hon. Friend had a l so , w i t h hi s usual good feeling and good taste, bet,towed high praise upon the speech of an H. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Stteil), and had remarked, that it was a proof of the ad oeuldbohreout,gethros,retdlr a t it t h h o e u t g a h len li t e s o va f n a t n ag i e n s Li ft t h lu e a s l ys s t o em g o if f ted could had failed in his election as the representative of a county. He (Lord Palmerston) drew another les.on irons the saute facets: he applied the argument to the middle classes of the community, who, until now, had been excluded from their fair share in the government of the count ry. —( Hear, hear.)—At present they might be tent-red the tools of every pernicious; agitator, and their disaffection ; should it ever appear, might be employed for the most dangerous pur • poses ; but let them lei,tlealt with as the Right Hon. Gen tleman had dealt with the Roman Catholics, by passing the measure of Reform, and it would produce confidenc e in time great mass of the people, and convcrt discontent to attachment. Sir R. PEEL, in explanation, disclaimed having ob jected to the admission of copyholders as part of the two stituency of the country. Although the late Government had been tanned out on the Civil List, yet he was aware that on the following night there would prohably have been such a manifestation of opinion on the question of Reform, that Ministers could not have retained their places, unless they bad to a certain degree conformed to it. As a private individual, therefore, he had been prep 'rest to enter into a compromise on the subject. After the course taken by the present servants of the Crown—after the use that had been made of his Majesty's name—(H ar, hear)—the nature of the opposition was entirely changed. —(Cries of " spoke, spoke.)—He was not aware that he had gone beyond what the usual courtesy of the House al_ lowed f expl nation. Mr. GOIILBURN adverted to the argument of the Noble Lord (Palmerston), that the inetsure was not re volutionary because power was given to the Privy Council. He would take the word reVolutiGn.,ry in the snore moderate sense of a great and important change. It could not be said that the change was not great and important, when it gave a Committ ee o f the Privy Council auth or ity to inquire into the state and population of every county 'and town of the kingdom, and at their will to add or diminish the number of repre sentatives. Even with regard to the city . of London, that Committee might at any time direct that adjoining parishes should be included within its limits, and vote for its representatioa.—(Hear.)--Such an extra ordinary power seemed to him a great deterioration of the present system. It was sail, that the close boroughs were equally distributed on both sides of the House, and admit tmg the tact, there was no doubt that the Committee or the Privy Council would be under the influence of the Go vernment of the day, and would interfere with every town in the kingdom just as might suit the purposes of that Government. Looking, therefore, only at the proposed increase of the influence of the Crown, the measure of Reform was most dangerous and objectionable. The Noble Lord had vindicated the present Ministers by the conduct of the late Cabinet on the subject of the Catholic claims, forgetting that the alteration of tto franclfse in Ireland could not warrant the violent proceeding now re commended, which would hereafter be drawn into prece dent by every man who wished to introduce perilous it no cations. The vote by ballot and universal- suffrage might thus be enforced. The Noble Lord opposite seemed to say, that if they bad had a Reformed Parlikunent, they . would not have found so much difficulty as had:been expe rienced in carrying the Catholic question. S...;trJudg i ng' from the petaions presented against that m ea su r e , at 1 7 yia d ,ers a th n e y tchoig b n n si d e ruts, po t i on p u o r i . b l arli t was ee ry a t,h r e ta s i h n ldnost one yo,teli