The Sun. — London, England, 1831-04-14 00:00:00

4ed that that ci;';'rection would tend to restore to England some portitri of that representation of which, by the ori ginal pion, she was to hare been deprived. Still, thenc forte, according to the construction of the Bill, there would bey not indeed sixty or seventy Members deducted from the representation of England, but perhaps about forty Was it intended to call upon the House to pronounce, by a division, their opinion whether or not that reduction of forty Members in the English representation should talcs, place? If so, was it possible that the House could be pre pared to come to such a decision on Monday ? In c on e e _ quence of the corrections which had been received, several material alterations would be made in the BM, and on those alterations the House was to be called upon to pro nounce on Monday I. Let it be recollected that, on a Mat- ter of such extreme importance, no decision would be !ix tisfactory to the people of England unless it trzsi the result of the most deliberate consideration.—(Hear, hear.) Lord ALTHORP said, with reference to one of the questions of the Right Hon. Baronet, that it was not in tended to take the population of parishes as the test of disfranchisement where those parishes were principally in the county, but only where they wetT principally in the town. With respect to the other points, he had not heard his Noble Friend's statement last night. Althengh it would be necessary to make some alterations in the schedule A. and 8., those alterations tvonitt be very small. Th-y were principally occasioned only by the corrections which had been obtained of the population returns. Bct, besides those, it was intended tss rectify other errors, arising from the omission of latexes in which them was a large population ; and from the necessity of adding a certain number of county Members to preserve the balance. There would, therefore, be an increase, to a certain extent, the number of representatis - es originally contemplated in the Bill ; and the actual reduction propose& neould be about teat which the Right Hon. Baronet had supposed. That was the proposition which his Majesty's Ministers meant to make, and from which they did not mean On l';'epart unless; the decision ef tlee House should Its; aainst it; in which case, not conceiving that the alt nine would affect the main principle of the measure, they would acquiesce in it. Sir R. PEEL said it wts now quite clear that the Bill which the House were to be called upon to consider on Monday was a new Bill—(Hear, hear, hear) , - , s-and yet it was not the principle, but the details of this new Bill which they were then to be called upon to consider. They were to be called upon on Monday to determine whether a parish in which a town was situated. was more a town parish than a county parish. They were to be called upon Monday to determine tnhether the elective franchise should be conferred on a certain number of places not hitherto mentioned. Surely it was consistent with the strictest reins of justice that the House should have time to toreider these propositions, His Majesty's Government bad had four months to consider the subject, and yet had found it necessary to change their Plans. 'Was the House of Commons to be denied the upportainity of fair consideration? Lord ALTHORP could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that there was no intention on the part of his Majesty's Government to take the House by surprise. A full state ment would be made by his Noble Friend on Monday of Rho alterations proposed in the measure, and in his (Lord Althorn's) opinion there would be nothing in that state ment which ought to lead to any postponement. General GASCOYNE seeing the Noble Member for Tavistock now in his place, wished to ask whether there was any thing in the propositions which that -.seine Lord intended to make on Monday that wottL tinder unneces sary the instruction to the Comir,:atee which he (General Gascoyne) had given notice of his intention to move, to preserve the existing proportion in the representation of the three kingdoms? Would the Noble Lord inform the House what o .:e proposition was which he meant to pro pose ? It n - a 3 really impossible to go satisfactorily into the consideration of these questions on so sudden a notice. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Gallant General appeared to have misunderstoenl his (Lord John Russell's) statement. When the Gallant General moved his instruc tion to the Committee, he (Lord John Russell) would /Submit to the House his sentiments upon it. The petition was then read. On the motion that the petition do lie on the table, Sir E. B. SUGDEN could hardly have conceived it possible that the Hon. and Learned Member for Water. ford would have made the indirect attack which he had made upon him in consequence of what had appeared in the public prints, attributing to him acts of which he had no cognizance whatever, and all participation in which he Lad explicitly and publicly denied. Why did not the Hon. and Learned Gentleman manfully come forward with a charge, instead of covertly - 44 sailing him in consequence of passages in the papers, which had been basely and scan dalously directed against him ?—(Hear, hear ) He had been cbareed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman not only with paying the expenses of one election out of the pro ceeds of another, but also with a wish to obtain a judicial muation in which the lives and properties of numbers 'Would be rendered a matter of profit. He was not sur prised at such imputation from the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford ; they were not new from that Hon. and Learned Member—that Hon and Learned Mem ber had cast them upon others; hut he (Sir E. Sugden) threw them back with the utmost disdain and contempt. All who knew him knew he was content with his present station, and that he had no desire for advancement lie might have been appointed to a judicial station over and ever main; hut he had rejected the offer because he was de sirous to win his own way to independence. Was it right or fair to take these indirect means of assailing him? In a paper of th it day there Was an answer to his (Sir E. Sugden's) letter on the subject in question, which we would not condescend to notice otherwise than by declar ing that nine-tenths of the statements in that answer were erandalous falsehoods. Whoever attacked any one in that House ought to do so in an open and manly manner, and not in the way which had been adopted by the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford. Mr. O'CONNELL observed, that if he had taken notice in that House of any part of the conduct of the Hen. and Learned Member fur Weymouth, it was because he found that Hon. and Learned Gentleman the advocate of Par liamentary corruption. He had merely used the expres sions which occurred in letters that had appeared in the public prints, and which had not been denied. A person of the name of (we believe) Northcute, had called upon him (Mr. O'Connell), had shown Lim certain documents, and had asked him if a loan who was guilty of the prac tices there described ought to be a member of the pro fession to which he (Mr. O'Connell) belonged. He (Mr. O'Connell) said not. He had not used a word contained in those documents. It was of the documents which had been published that h e spo k e w h en h e ta l ked of the traffic in meats, and of paying the expences of an election out of the produce of seats. Was such a system of swindling to be tolerated ? The documents by which those practices had been established were before the public, and there had been no denial of them. With respect to the language in which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman bad indulged, he, as well as others who had used similar expressions, knew that they were perfectly safe; protected by the peculiar circumstances in which he (Mr. O'Connell) was placed. The expressions used by him (Mr. O'Connell) had been used because he found the Hon. end Learned Gentleman advocating the boroughmongeling system in that House. The coneluct of the Hun. and Learned Gentleman showed the way in which the business of the public was done in that House. It was fitting that one who looked for in demnity fur his own expences out of the produce of an elect on should oppose Reform. But should he (Mr. O'Connell) have been worthy the station of a representa tive of the people, if he had not reprobated the conduct of a man who took up opposition to Reform on a principle of low chicanery ? Would the Hon. ant: Learned Gentle man call for inquiry on the subject ? Would he ask fur a Special Committee to investigate it ? Or would he se cond his (Mr. O'Connell's) motion for such a Committee? Rao, h e would gratify the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and mak e the motion. Sir E. SUGDEN said the Hon. and Learned Member had increased the offence of which he complained. It nowappear e d t h at in the attack which the Hon. and Learned Member had [made up on him, he had not been led away by the b eat of the debate, but had dresolved upon it, because he was what ha was pleased to call the advocate of a corrupt system. If the House were content to have such language addressed to one of its Members, who Lad qu i te as deep a stake in the country as the individu a l who made use of it, it was indeed quite time that a Retbrin should take place , hut net of anal Learned Member advocated. hch ahneathuire as the Hon. "and Learned Member had repeated his attack after he had heard e t him ,e declare that he had no copies of the letters Ftro,,mtl which Hon. and Learned Member had alluded. pressure of his business , n in e t e en- twentieths of the lettersgreat which he wrote were written in Court. lie had not, to I hie kn iwledge, kept copies of half a directs letters in the course of Ina life. lie challenged the Hun. Member to produce the originals, and to bring forward any charg e agatus t him in a direct and manly way. lie begg e d the House to observe that the Hon. and Learned Member now said he would bring the . , subject before the House, not from a sense of duty, but only because he felt that he had acted unjustly on the present occasion, and that it was necessary he should do something to m alt-ate his character. He was extremely sorry to see Mem bers of that House leaguing themselves with persons out of doors: Tle charge which had been brought against }mini with respect to the payment of the,expenses of his lelection was seant'ialous)y false. It lt,.:'ett - said that he tilt not pay his election expences in 1829 and 1839. lie i'tleclared upon his honour that he had paid them all. There ' fore the statement in th'-:?; papers on this point was about as well founded is the staternents of the Hon. and Learned Membr. He had denied the Whelt statement which had ?ppeared in the newspapet'a is every leading particular. The Hon. and Le?,rntd Member said that he had seen the 'original letters. lie could not give the Hon', ami Learned Member credit for speaking correctly on this point. The Hon. and Learned Memlnt - had attacked him merely be cause the mode in t'hien he had performed his duty to the country and the House did not please him, If tt a future perioti Ministers should propose universal surfrage and vote by ballot, the Hon. anti Ltd `Member would tre it them as he had treated and state that they were not de• serving of tbe'tomidence of the country. Before he re sume' Ii seat, he felt it necessary to say, that whilst, on the one hand, he never courted a personal quart 11, sa, on the other, he hoped that he should °ever tip found d'efi'cient in that respect which wta ',toe to society and the feelings of gentlemen,._! Mar, hear.) Mr. tit.!Al. thought, that the HMI. and Darned Mem ber Who last spoke had violated - the regulations of the House, by declaring that h'e did not believe the lion. Member for Wa".. - nrti had seen certain letters, after the Hon. Aft7 - .11 ( : - ,er fe. Waterford had stated that he hal seen firm. lie wished the Speaker to declare hit opinion on this point. The SPEAKER has! !•..nrd nothing in the second speech of the Hoa. sild Learned Member for Weymouth. He understood the Hon. and Learned Member for Wey mouth to say, tat he did not believe e'te Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford hod certain letters. He was ' not certiin, hove" r::•, that the hint riven by the Hon. Member for: i.tiddiesex micht not he useful : he only wished that i,laad been given at an eariier period.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex must have observed, on other occasions, that when any thing was stated which affected the character of a Member, great latltticle was and ought to be allowed to the injured Member in making his defence. if, after what he had said, the Hon. Member for Middlesex should ask him whether there had been dis order in the con'Tasation, he would say yes ; but if lie should farrier ask where the disorder was most apparent, he would say in the Hon. and Learned Member for Water. lord.—( Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL felt that for the character of the House some further inquiry was neccastry With respect to the statements A'hicit had been laid before the public. He would not say That he was satisfied that the Hon. and Lear t.l Member was justly charged with the offences im peril to him, but, on the other hand, he could not say that the denials which those statements bad hitherto re ceived had been such as to remove from the public mind the impression of improper conduct on the part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He therefore hoped that the Hon, Member for Waterford would bring forward a motion on the subject, and that on that occasion the Hon. and Learned Member for Weymouth would make such an explanation as would relieve the House from any imputa tion on its general character. . _ Sir E. SUGDEN had already declared his willingness to meet any charge which could he brought against him. Since the Noble Lord was so sensitive with respect to the character of the House, he hoped he would not be satisfied with the case of Weymouth, but would carry his inquiry further, and investigate the abuses which prevailed with respect to other boroughs, to which Government were necessarily partite. For example, the Noble Lou! might institute an inquiry into the state of the representation of Bletchingley.—(Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL hid made no charge against the Hon. and Learne I Member, but had only expressed a wish to have a charge investigated which affected the charac ter of the House. He wished the laws of the House to be observed, and one of those laws was that the sale of seats should not he permitted.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. and Learned Member called upon him to carry his prin ciple into effect generally. He was doing so. With me spect to Bletchinglev, if the Hon. and Learned Member would look at schedule A. of a certain Bill, be would find that in future there would be no opportunity of selling seats for that pbire.—( Hear.) Mr. HUDSON GURNEY said, that as the Noble Lord had himself contested a county, then sat fur an open borough, and now sat for a nomination borough, he might, perhaps, be able to give the House some valuable informa tion respecting the system of patronage. The petition wa■ then ordered to lie on the table. ABOLITION OF OATHS. Lord NUGENT moved fur leave to bring in a Bill to abolish certain oaths taken in the Customs and Excise. He said that great inconvenience had been found to result from the large number of oaths taken before the Boards. In one year 101,590 oaths were taken in the Customs, and 194,612 in the Excise. In answer to an application from the Treasury, the Boards of Customs and Excise had reported, that out of 94 classes of oaths, 92 might be abolished, without injury to the public service. In place of the oaths, it was proposed to substitute a declaration, the breach of which would subject the offender to a penalty of 1001. Mr. O'CONNELL congratulated the country on the present ;notion, as the first step for the abolition of all un necessary oaths, whether in Universities or Custom-houses. He should therefore support the Noble Lord to the utmost extent of his ability. I,,ave was then gives to bring in the Bill accordingly. DISTURBANCES - IN CLARE. Mr. O'BRIEN would call on his Majesty's Govern ment to say whether they were prepared to grant protec tion to person and to property, not merely in Clare, but throughout the whole of Ireland, for the evils now preva lent in that county, if unchecked, would extend to every other county in the kingdom where similar causes existed. It was not his intention to enter into any minute details of the numerous and flagrant violations of the laws which had occurred in Clare during the last six months, for they were already hut too well known to the House, however they might appear in this civilized and eminently favoured country. He should, therefore, content himself with reading two brief extracts; one from a provincial news paper, the other from a private letter, written by it gen tleman of property in the counts., which would sufficiently inform those who might still be ignorant of the pass to which society had at length arrived in this part of the sister kingdom.—(The newspaper extract, descriptive ge nerally of the panic which prevailed amongst the upper classes, and the insubordination of the famishing peasantry, has already appeared in this journal. )—The letter stved, that the people were in the habit of occasionally assem bling in bodies to the number of 4,000 or 5,000, and selecting 400 or 500 for the task of turning up all the land that they happened to find under pasture, which of course was speedily accomplished. It also set forth the impossibility of procuring evidence, no matter how aggra vated might be the outrages committed. Officers of jus tire daily pissed the parties to their perpetration on the highways at noon-day, without power to arrest them. They cou'd even place their finger on those who to a moral cer tainty were known to have imbrued their hands in recent murder, and yet legal evidence that would warrant their ap prehension it was impassible to obtain. He (the lion. Mem ber) did not accuse Government of supineness; on the con trary, he rather thought they had resorted to such measure* as to the best of their judgment were calculated to check the progress of these evils, and the Marquis of Angleses sould not be too much applauded for the spirit which had actuated his Excellency's present visit to the disturbed dis tricts, but it appeared to him that they had from the be ginning mistaken the mode in which they should meet an exigency of so portentous a character. A single fact, perhaps, would give the House a more correct notion of the nature of the relation which subsisted between the upper and lower ranks in the county of Clare than they could receive from any description which he might lay before them. The peasantry, in great force, a few days ago, attacke 1 a gentleman's house which two policemen were left to guard, and took possession of thirteen stand of arms—yet, although the military arrived in half an hour afterwards, not one of the domestics or menials of the family could be induced to point out the road that the perpetrators of the outrage had taken. Under such cir cumstances, the Magistracy felt themselves justified in call ing for the Insurrection Act six weeks since, and if their application had been acceded to, he had no doubt that all the bloodshed which had since taken place would have been prevented. He did not, however, ask for it at pre sent, as he considered that it would now be ineffectual, but he must here notice the opinion which was so prevalent in Lonlim to the prejudice of the Clare landlords, to whose griping avarice, as was alleged, many of these ex cesses were attributable. Now he did not believe that the landlords in that county were more reprehensible in this respect than the landlords of Ireland generally and to his own knowledge many of those very land lonia had consented to take only half the rent which in the desperate competition for land had been offered them by the peasantry. He should himself recommend the appoint ment pointm ent o f a Select Comm i ttee who m i g h t b e a f• forded cor recte ifridetefi a e n l e farmers, and o rn rt a u s nity of examining landlords, but intelli should thus tmheursitbseaead demerits nabledt of o come the, oea body under inculpation. For his own part, he attributed the outrages so rite i n Cl are to the poverty of the people in consequence of their numbers compared y with th f employment. In addition to the excitement peeotimuce!letnlsly t t the utter destitution of the peasantry, their d iscontent, h e was way to add s bad been industriously increased by the dissemination of political and religious diamensions.— (Hear%) He should now ask Ministers what it was their intention to do ? It occurred to hien that they shoUld company instant measures of feir with measures of relief, and they might hereafter consider how far emigration, e a _ loniiation of waste ittrifi, or a qualified system of poor laws, might be practically eXpeilienr. With respect to one of those plans, it was right he should mention that ayen tleman of property in Clare would be Willing to give a large tract of waste less& fete ten years gratuitously, for the purpose cf colonization by the Government. in con clusion, he should merely move, that there be laid before the house a copy of the memorial presented to his E x _ cehency the Lord-Lieutenant, from the Grand Jury of Clare, relative to the disturbances which had taken place in that county. Op. the Itvottnn being secianded, and put froth the chair. Mr. STANLEY was by no means prepared to deny the extent of the grievances which the Lion. Gentleman had noticed. He could not deny that the peasantry of Clare Wert in a 'Aale of alarming insubordination ; neither did he deny that infuriated attacks had in many instances been made on person and property, and that e vidence in such cases was, as had been stated, very difficult to be obtained. This system, he could not but admit, was still in full ope ration, having been unchecked by any efforts whisk had been made to counteract it hitherto. The Hod. Gentleman had indeed done (Government the justice to acknowledge that they had not been remiss in their endeavours to obviate tar l'emove those evils, but he appeared to think that it was their duty at the very first incipient symptom of disturbance to have had recourse to the Insurrection Act. Now, this measure in effect amounted to a suspension of the Consti tution ; it was an extreme remedy which no Government could feel itself justified in applying, except only in ex treme cases, where the necessity for such an enactment was imperative, and where the danger was of alarming magni tude) and Mine !late urgency. He would not now un_ dertake to affirm that it might not be requisite eventually to adopt the course suggested by the Hon. Gentleman; but should this alternative be found indispensable here after, Government at all events, whether it might be a merit or reproach, would enjoy the reflection that they had not availed themselves of this dreadful measure until all milder means had failed. As it was, they had made con. siderable additions to the constabulary, and they had sent down four stipendiary Magistrates, who, being uncon nected with the county, were of course free from local prejudices, which there was reason to believe but too often interfered with the due administration of jus tice. Indeed, Government hail some reason to com plain of the dereliction of duty latterly evinced by a considerable portion of the gentry of Clare, who,. by deserting their houses and flying for shelter to towns, left a clear field for the parties to the perpetration of the out rages alluded to, and set no very laudable example to their inferiors. The measures, however, already resorted to not having had the desired effect, the Lord Lieutenant was determined to satisfy himself by a personal inspection of the districts where disturbances had become unfortu nately so prevalent, and Government were now waiting with anxiety to ascertain the result of his Excellency's own observations. Whether Ministers might deem it necessary to apply for extraordinary power to suppress the turbulent spirit, so generally manifested by the peasantry in this part of Ireland, would now entirely depend on the report of the Lord Lieutenant. A war subsisted un foubtedly between the upper and lower classes, but it was not fur him to in quire at that moment to whose fault such a state of things was chi, fly attributable. The Hon. Gentleman appeared to think that rents were ton high, and in such an opinion it was probable he would find numbers to agree with him. He thought also that poverty and distress were the causes of these frequent and frightful violations of the public peace, and yet censured Government fur not having re sorted at the first blush to the extreme remedy of the Insurrection Act. That violent and harsh mode of treat ment was now, however, in his opinion, insufficient for the purpose, and he demanded what lie should con sider more vigorous measures. At the same time, it would appear, from what had fallen from the Hon. Member, that he was not aware of the extent of application of which the Insurrection Act was susceptible. It applied as well to offences which were committed by day as to those which occurred at night, and dispensed with the attendance of grand jury and petit jury, the assistant .barrister and magistrates being authorized summarily to pass sentence of transportation on evidence being submitted to them. lie did not desire, on this occasion, to enter at large into the distressing details of these outrages ; but should it be necessary hereafter to apply extraordinary remedies to the evils which all so deeply deplored, he would be ready 'to lay before the House the whole mass of information of which Govern ment was already in possession, and the Legislature might then judge whether circumstances sufficiently called for the application of the Insurrection Act. Neither emi gration, nor a colonization of waste lands, nor, above all, the difficult and delicate policy of a modified system of poor laws, would, in his opinion, relieve the distresses of those who were now suffering under such a complication of inflictions. The poverty of the people proceeded from want of employment, and no system of poor laws short of that which provided support for all who were out of em ployment would be efficacious, and the poor law system, if introduced as a whole, would bring with it settlement, and all the abuses incidental to it here. He would only add that should extraordinary measures be deemed neces sary, Government would, without hesitation, have recourse to them. After one or two remarks from Major Mactiamaaa, which were not heard in the gallery, Mr. M. O'CONNELL must solicit the indulgence of the House while he made a few observations on the motion of the Hon. Member, since it related to a subject pecu. liarly interesting to him as representative to those against whom that Hon. Member had levelled his denunciation. The causes of the evils that now prevailed in the county of Clare were to be found on the surface of society,—the fault lay wich the landed proprietors, on whom the effects of their own system were now likely to recoil. All the disturbances that had hitherto taken place, were so many indications of a war of poverty against riches, and the sources in which those outrages had originated could not be mistaken. The county of Clare was a grazing county, and a large p: rtion of the land available to agriculture was appropriated to pasture : hence the deficiency of employ ment in comparison with the supply of labour. About 200,000/. was drawn from the county annually, while nut one-fourth of that sum was spent there. The highest penny of rent was generally demanded, aed it was a re markable fact in allusion to the excesses alluded to, that they were always perpetrated to the loss of those who squeezed the most from the poor, whilst the estates of his Hon. Colleagues and others, who took but a fair rent, were left unmolested and uninjured. Since the disfran. chisement of the forty.shilling freeholders, the sufferings of the lower classes had been materially aggravated, for the strong arm of oppression had driven them forth from their hearth. and homes, in order to make way for those who could conduce to the parliamentary influence of the landlord. In his opinion, the Insurrection Act, if applied six weeks ago as a remedy, w have had but a temporary effect, and must ultimately have led to exaggerated evils. The lion. Gentleman then proceeded to animadvert on the conduct of the Magistracy of Clare, as having contri buted to aggravate the dissatisfaction of the people. There was one man among them, who was at the same time chief eonst 'hie of the police, and a justice of the peace. If any distu r b ance t oo k p l ace w i t hi n hi s j ur i s di c tion, this justice constable, or constable justice, went out, and, com bining his two characters, arrested such persons as he pleased, and then decided on their guilt or innocence. lie hail been credibly informed that in more than one instance l in the county of Clare, persons had been committed to gaol upon informations which were never sworn ; and he had likewise been informed, on equally good authority, that more than once a magistrate of that county had de scended from the bench, to beat with his own hands per sons who were brought before him.—(Hear.) In another district of the same county, there was a Magistrate who examined witnesses in one room, and decided on their cre dibility in another, in which there presided behind the Court an influence greater than the Court itself: in plain English, that Magistrate stepped from his examination room into a room behind it, well furnished with divinity, in which, according to the decision of his lady, who had heard nothing of the case, he decided on the fate of any poor creatures who had the misfortune to be brought be fore hint. He asserted this on the authority of the Rev. Malachi Duff (we believe), a gentleman of undoubted re spect thility. He contended at considerable length, that the Magistrates of the county of Clare were not fit per magistracy ; e granted, a nd e he sons . to be intr us t e d w i t h t h e power b e l ong i ng to t h e m wascocuo n l d fi p d r e o n v t t t h h a a t t po in t i f aCboenylomniititcoeeno.f in a g g u t i t r v e tradiction. H e th en procee d ed to account for the manner in which Clare, which had hitherto been almost a virgin county,—for it had never been stained by insurrection or rebellion, had fallen into its present state of disorgani zation. He attributed it to t h e con d uct of Mr. Synge, who had instituted certain schools in different parts of the county, and had compelled, as far as he was able, the pea santry to mend their children to them for education. The consequence had been, that the peasantry had errered into combinations to resist his authority, and that they had at last gone so far as to attack his house. It was now four years since a memorial had been sent up to the Castle at Dublin by the principal landholders of Clare, stating these fact; to Government. The receipt of the natruvrial was acknawledgd, but that was ail, for nothing Was done in consequence of it. In that memorial, which he had no doubt would be - found among the records of the Irish office, and of which, at any rate, he could furnish a copy, it was distinctly stated, that there hail 'commenced among the peasantry, an organiiation which, if ..bt stopped by the Government, must inevitably lead to very dattgerous results. /'i'o interference had been used by the Govern ment, and the consequence was, that the spirit of insur n ction had proceeded unchecked, until it hail reached such an extent, that neither life nor property were safe in the county of Clare ; and now, at the eleventh hour, the House of Commons was called upon to pass a law to put down an ineuvrection, which, if Government had done its duty by interfering four years ago, might have b-en Chetkad without difficulty, and without any of that effu sion of blood which unfoi tunately bad since taken place. The Hon. Gentleman next proceeded to observe, that though he gave the Marquis of Anglesea every credit for good intention of visiting Clare, much mischief hail resulted from his visiting it at present. He had every reason to believe that if the Noble Marquis had not gone into Clare, the peasantry would have voluntarily surren dered their arms to those gentlemen whom they knew to he their friends ) and would have returned peaceably to their allegiance. lie could speak of his owt, knowledge to this fact, that the inhabitants of one parish had sent a deputy to a Roman Catholicclergyman in Ennis, to inform him that if he and Mr. Steele would meet them at a par ticular spot the next night, they would deliver up their arms and return peaceably into the King's allegiance. He likewise knew, that the example of that parish would have been followed by six other parishes ; and he would under take to say, that after such an example had been set ti the misguided peasantry, the people of Clam would, within one month, have been as quiet as any other people on on the face of the globe. It so happened, that in the in terval between the make of the proposal to the Roman Ca tholic clergyman at Ennis, and the time fixed for its ac complishment, the fact of Lord Anglesea's intention to come to Clare was made known to the public. He (Mr. O'C.) happened to be at the house of the Roman Catholic clergyman when the deputy came to tell his Rev. Friend that he could not undertake that the arms should be sur rendered up, as he had previously promised ; for the people having heard that the Marquis of Anglesea was coming down among them, had come to a resolution not to give up their arms, until they saw something done for their relief. He would only say that his Rev. Friend and Mr. Steele had been anxiously engaged for the whole of one day and one night in getting a partial delivery of arms made. They were still continuing their exertions, and, with the blessing of God, he trusted that they would ulti mately meet with complete success. Ile would not, how ever, have the House to suppose that because there was an appearance of calm now, the gale had entirely subsided. It was not for him, young and inexperienced as he was, to point out to the House the best mode of availing themselves of the present calm; but what he conceived would mainly contribute to obtain the peace of Ireland, and to secure its continuance when obtained, was to give the peasantry land at a fair price,—to let the making and repairing of the roads he given to the actual occupants of the soil, instead of making jobs of them, as had been too long the case in Clare,—to open some public works at the public expence, and to encourage to the utmost its agriculture and manu factures. He thanked the House for the attention with which they had listened to him, whilst trespassing so long upon its indulgence.—(Cheers.) He was sure that if they would only examine into the subject, they would find that his statements were not in the slightest degree overehArged. In conclusion, he expressed a hope that the measures which the Right Hon. Secretary had taken for this paci fication of the county of Clare weuld be attended with success, and would restore that county to that tranquillity, for which it had hitherto been so honourably distinguished. 311 . . RUTIIYEN hoped that the description which the Hen. Member for Clare had given of the Magistracy in the county which he represented so ably, would not be taken as a description which belonged to the Magistrates of Ireland generally. Certain he was that it did not be long to the Magistracy in the North of Ireland. He could scarcely bring himself to believe that any Magistrate could so far disgrace himself as to descend from the bench on ' which he was sitting, to beat with his own hand the poor wretches who were brought before him. But if such disgraceful conduct was exhibited by any Magistrate, that House was not the tribunal before which his misconduct should be brought. Application ought to be made to the proper legal authority in Ireland, and sure be was, that if such misconduct was proved to time satisfaction of the Noble Personage who appointed the Magistracy, that Magistrate would not long disgrace the commission of the peace. The Hon. Member then proceeded to point out what were, in his opinion, the most likely causes of, and the most efficient remedies for, the distresses; of Ireland. He thought that vigorous measures ought to be adopted to put down an insurgent peasantry, because if such measuret were not adopted, the insubordination of the district mighs spread into other districts, and the tranquillity of the whole country might thus he destroyed. Under such cir cumstances, he should be prepared to arm the Govern ment with the powers of an Insurrection Act, is case the necessity for its enactment were clearly made out. Colonel TRENCH complimented the Hon. Member for Clare for the modest and able manner in which he bed delivered his opinions upon this question. He must, how ever, remind that Hon. Member, that even admitting the pretences for the outrages which haul been recently com mitted in Clare to be such as he haul stated, similar out rages had occurred in other parts of Ireland, where it was not even asserted that ovh pretences had any existence. He alributed the occurrence of these outrages to that system of political agitation which was now so common in Ireland ; and as a proof of his position, referred to the violent language which had been used by several of the agitators at their late meetings. He contended that the same influence which haul produced these disastrous events would, if it were not checked, produce before long events still more disastrous. _ _ _ whom 11Ir . the lio STANLEY n.AI e s . na ber forth o a n of h Clare e e had the alluded Magistrates w as a m t r o . Tumkins Brew. It was undeniable that he had once held a situation in the police ; but be (Mr. Stanley) denied that he had ever held the office of a Magistrate and of a police constable together.—(Hear.) lie could assure the Hon. Member for Clare that if he could prove such misconduct as he had stated against Mr. Brew, or against any other Magistrate, that Magistrate should not long be continued in his Majesty's commission.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. D . BROWNE wished to be distinctly understood, that there was no connection between the famine in the west of Ireland and the insubordination in the county of Clare. He merely rose for the purpose of snaking known to the people of England, that the persons for whom an appeal was now made to their charity were not in a state of insurrection.—(Hear.) Mr. BROWNLOW was inclined to attribute all such insurrectionary movements, if that was to be the word, as those which now existed in the county of Clare, to the ryas hear.) En p nnrl w,rn aega a (pei, s t eirint htl yternehed improving,—that echmandrai increasing aar, pressure of intolerable distress. He believed that there was no people in the world more easily governed than the people of Ireland, when they ware not driven mad by this tress.—(Hear.) He believed that great distress now ex isted in Clare, and that it arose from the heavy exactions to which the people were exposed in the shape of rent. What then was to be done? Was the Insurrection Act the I) , ,st remedy for distress ? Would the sufferings of the people be palliated by it ? Would they be fed,—would they be employed by it?—(Hear.) He hoped that the House would pause long before it consented to do the cruel and unreasonable act of applying a severe measure of re pression to the distress of Ireland, instead of applying that soothing measure of relief, which was better suited to the nature of the case. He contended that the peasantry of Ireland ought to have relief from the soil which they cul tivated. He declared himself an advocate for that mea snttiioldenmi xngleids:et quadrupled e lgratiuhteape t tnl o hedae:i mea sure, which was now making great way in Ireland—he meant a system of poor laws for that country.—(Hear, presenthrmohei of late i n t r it te t admitted n l y i yi as: a eolt t alert r l itn itss r h. : :: l v a lsae n ,tolr r e.f;t l of Ireland were deteriorating, am: population l 2wbrni ve aeutt r sici3 e ihni , sn'l t oltk o afht u otaid s i e bel: the language of Dr. Doyle, in his late excellent letter on the poor-laws, in a state of rapid transition from wretchedness to ruin. He knew that in saying thus much he laid kimself open to this observation--" You have great wealth, you have large rentals, you have thousands of acres belonging to absentee landlords, and you are perfectly able to support your own poor :—but you do not support them, you come begging to this country for the means of support ing them."—( Hear.) He knew that he laid himself open to this observation, which no man felt the weight of more strongly than he did. He did, however, hope that on this occasion the benevolence of England would not be implored in vain. O'CONNOR DON made a few observations which were wholly inaudible in the gallery. Mr. O'CONNELL said that he did not wish to utter more than one sentence upon this subject. That sentence should be against the Insurrection Act ; for he well knew that however effectual it might be for the moment, it al ways left a sting behind it which was sure to be roused with increased acerbity on any new disturbance. He en tirely concurred with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite in the opinion, that the disturbances in Clare had nothing to do with politict. indeed, tio,t appeAreci t 9 by ad mit'ed by every body but ibe G dlant Member (Colonel Trench) near him. He had no hesitation, however, in saving that the Gallant Member was altogether wrong. The disturbances in Clare were att. ihutable to poverty only, and that poverty arose from the produce of the soil of the country being carried tiway by absentee land lords. He had never been a friend to poor laws, because he had seen the inconveniences and the abuses of them ; but he could not conceal from himself the absolute neces sity of a poor law for Ireland, unltss he could persuade himself that the people of that country would starve in quiet ; and that he was sure they neither would nor ought to do. In his opinion the church and the absentees ooght tt) contribute most largely to a poor -rate for Ireland. It was not to be expected that a country poor could go on much longer pay►ng the tenth of what little they had to a church with which they had nothing to do, while they voluntarily supported a church of their own. While he was Member for the county of Clare, he laid made but one application for a gentleman to be put in the commis sion of the peace. That gentleman wis a Mr. Bridge man, a person in all respects qualified to be a Magivrate ; but the late Chancellor had not condescended even to re turn an answer to this application, while he knew that two insolvents had been appointed Magistrates for the county: and if the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would inquire, perhaps he would find that out of the four stipend;ary gistrates, two had come under the operation of the Inseel vent Act, though one of them, he believed, had not, to use the technical phrase, been " clean white-washed."— (" Hear," and laughter. )—However, he had risen only to speak of the Insurrection Act. That Act, he was certain, would be productive of no good,—it would be merely turning the Magistrates into a court-martial, with all the roughness and severity, but with none of the honour and fairness, of a military court-martial. Colonel TRENCH denied that he had attributed the in surrection in Clare to politics. Ile had alluded to other parts of the country where the absence of poverty and tl:e conduct of the landlords ought to have prevented insure ec ! tion among the peasantry. Mr. LEADER said, that whatever means might be adopted for quelling the disturbances in Clare, yet the principal object of their consideration ought to be what measures would prevent those disturbances spreading into other parts of the country. On the other side of the Shannon there were 1,000 square miles destitute of their natural protectors, who were absentees. Could it h e d e . nied, then, that there was the utmost danger of the disturb ances of Clare extending to Limerick ? He thought not, when the contiguity of the two counties, and the circum stances of them, were maturely considered. The re sources of Ireland used to consist in its linen trade, and in the exportation of cattle, provisions, and corn. All that now remained of these resources was the export iLion of corn : and it appeared to him to he a subject of serious consideration, that the labour of 8,000,000 persons should be limited to the production of 300,000 or 400,000 quar ters of wheat. He felt that he should be wanting in his duty as an Irish gentleman, and as a Member of that ilouse, if he did not warn them that nothing would do but to look for some ameliorating system which would give the people support ; and as the absentees would not come forward voluntarily to retrieve the fortunes of the country, such an ameliorating system could be found only in assessment upon a very extended scale. This was net a matter in which Ireland only was concerned. Eng land was quite as much interested in it as Ireland was. This, he was well aware, was the place on which the battle of Ireland was to be fought,—and not at fails, and with pikes and bludgeons. Let him then assure the House, that he spoke the sentiments of numbers of Irish gentlemen when he said, that if the House did not inter fere and ameliorate the condition of Ireland by legislation, the Irish gentlemen had no hope that they should be able to remain in the country with security, or to be ancillary to the improvement of Ireland. Mr. M. FITZGERALD said, that if the case of dis tress and of the disorganization of society in Clare was so serious as it had been represented to be, he begged to call the attention of the House to a matter still more serious,— namely, how far the Government was prepared to arrest the progress of this state of things to other parts of the country. Ministers must and would, he was sure, do him the justice t t say, that four months aeo he called upon the Got ernment to arm themselves with force adequate to the con ing danger ; for four months ago he hat foreseen that danger. Would the Government now dare to tell him—would they dare to tell Ireland, that within those four months they had taken precautions adequate to the emergency? Tl'e people of that part of the country in which his property was situated wets quiet and tranquil at present, and he trusted that they would remain so ; but was he for that reason to be insensible to the dangers which threatened other parts of the country ? He would not now inquire into the causes of disturbances,—though he was prepared to enter into the inquiry at any conve nient time, and when the inquiry was instituted, he did not think there would be much difference of opinion with regard to those causes. What, however, he wanted to know was this,—had the Government used proper precau tions ? He was not called upon to enter into a defence of the conduct of Irish landlords generally; it was sufficient for him if he could justify his own conduct as a landlord : but he must say, that no one had a right to stigmatize the Irish landlords without knowing what they had had to contend with for the last 35 years. It was notorious, that in some parts of Ireland many gentlemen had been for 35 years past in what was called a state of siege. lie was not interested in praising or censuring the land lords of Clare ; he had nothing to do with their conduct, of which he knew little ; but he must say that no Government ought to excuse or tolerate open disorga nization and outrage, on the grounds that landlords had not conducted themselves as well as they might have done. It was the business of Government to uphold the laws. If it were necessary for him to state it, he was ready to state what he as an individual should be prepared to do under the circumstances; but he objected altogether to the Insurrection Act ; he objected to it twenty-five years ago, and he objected to it now. lie objected to it prin cipally on the grounds which had been urged by the Hon. Member for Waterford ; but he objected to it in this par ticular ease upon this other ground also—namely, that if the gentlemen of Clare were, as they had been represented, afraid to remain in their houses, they certainly were not persons to whom the administration of such an act ought I ought to be entrusted. lie protested against the having recourse to the Insurrection Act, and upon this amongst other grounds—that it was a law which was extremely liable to be abused and perverted. In his opinion, when any departure was made from the law and practice of the Constitution of the country, it should depend upon the respensibility of the Government, and not upon that of the local Magistracy. It was much to be apprehended it measures were not promptly taken by the Government to put an end to the atrocities which were now being com mitted in the south -west of Ireland,that the evil would spread to such an extent, and the system of disorganization would become so general, that it would be extremely hard to deal with it. He would therefore urge upon his Majesty's Government the necessity of adopting some measures for that purpose without delay. He did not concur with those who thought that the distress or poverty of Ireland palli ated the enormities which had been lately committed in some parts of Clare ; but he would contend, at the same time, that the Government and the Legislature should speedily set about devising measures for bettering the con dition of the people of that country. He was astonished by the doctrine which, if he had not greatly misunderstood the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, had been put forth that night by that lion. Member—namely, that the agricultu ral exports of Ireland were productive of evil to that country, and that the 300,000 quarters of wheat which he stated was the amount exported from Ireland, would, if retained there, provide food for the now destitute and starv ing population. The Hon. Member seemed to forget that if a prohibition were laid upon the export of corn for Ire land, the amount which was now exported from it might not be produced there. One of the sound and common sense maxims of political economy might have reminded the Hon. Member that such would be the effect of placing a restricting upon the exporting the agricul rural produce of Ireland. There was much improve ment required in the mode in which the peasantry were treated in Ireland. The real interests of the landlords of Ireland would be truly consulted and promoted many w in stancesould state that he derived a return of 12 per cent. and upwards by affording adequate settlements, upon fair and moderate terms, to the peasantry upon their lands. Wh erever his own mention case he capital was thus expended on land in Ireland, it invariably gave in proof an abundant of oreturn.lce in could, and i from capital so laiffout. It was quite true that in m any parts of Ireland, as had been stated by the Hon. Memb er for Clare with regard to that county , the best lands were devoted to pasture, and in such districts the people were treated with more harshness than elsewhere. No pallia tion MIS to be found for the outrages which had been lately committed by the peasantry in Ireland—the effects of such outrageous proceedings recoiled upon the people themselves; but he was sure that if the peasantry were treated in a different manner from that in which they had been treated hitherto, the pacification of the country would be the result. Mr. LEADER in explanation said, that he had not uttered a word against the exports of Ireland, and that, on the contrary, he had always used his best exertions to pro mote and increase the exports of Ireland. Mr. JAMES GRATTAN said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Member for Kerry) had touched upon a variety of subjects., and had adverted to many of the ex isting grievances in Ireland, but he sat down without pointing out any remedy for their removal. It appeared to him that the Right Hon. Gentleman had drawn a very exaggerated picture of the state of Ireland. The evil of absentees was one of the great and leading evils that af flicted Ireland, and the only way to cure it was to intro duce a provision for the poor into that country. He did not see how any one who had voted for the union of Ire land with this country could refuse to give his support to such a measure as that. The question of the introduction of the poor laws into Leland was one which had recently made great progress, and he trusted that it would very soon be carried. He hoped that the old and hacknied sys tem of governing Ireland by the Insurrection Act, which had been so often tried, and which had so signally failed, would not now be again resorted to. In reference to what hail filen front the night Hon. the Member for Kerry with respect to the exports of Ireland, he (Mr. Grattan) must say, that he quite agreed with the opinion expressod by the lion. Member for Newark, in his able work on Ireland, that they should feed the people first, before they permitted the export ition of agricultural produce from that country. Mr. HUNT said that all the Members from Ireland agreed that distress existed in that country, and that poor_ laws should be introduc d there. Then why were they not proposed ? There was a p riod when none would have voted .for them; now every Member from Ireland was fur poor laws. Then, in God's name, why did not some of them propose the measure ? He (Mr. Hunt) did not see why the people of Ireland should not have poor laws. Lord VALENTIA said, that whatever might be the cause, distress existed in certain parts of Ireland, and disturbances were the consequence ; and Government, he thought, were bound to propose some remedy. With respect to the introduction of poor laws into Ireland, he thought they were totally impracticable there. The residence of the gentry on the est acs would tend to re lieve the distress of Ireland. The county he represented (Wexford) was in a very prosperous condition, and this, he believed, was owing to the great number of resident landlords. Mr. O'BRIEN and Mr. STANLEY explained. The motion WWI then agreed to. On the motion of Mr. TENNYSON, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. Mr. TENNYSON said that the perusal of the printed estimates would preclude the necessity of his going at much length into the details. The sum to be expended this year was 1 711,9991., from which was to be deducted for the value of stores 296,1821., leaving only the sum of 1,418,817/. to be provided for. Last year the amount was 1,689,144/. so that between the estimates of the last and the present year, there was a difference of 270,627/. less charge on the public. De ducting, however, the balance in hand (as we understood), the actual reduction of expenditure this year was 166,000/. The Hon. Member then entered into some explanation of the details, but in a low voice and conversational tone, which rendered it impo'sible to collect the purport of his observations. Respecting the college at Sandhurst (as we understood), he stated that Government contemplated sonic alterations. It was intended to admit pupils into the academy at Woolwich on their paying a certain sum. I t conclusion, the Hon. Member assured the Committee that there was every disposition on the part of the Master- General of the Ordnance to pay as much attention to eco nomy' as possible. He admitted that much had been done in that way by the late Government, and hoped that the present Administration would receive credit for following the example of their predecessors. Considering that the heads of the Ordnance had been but li!tle more than three months in the department, he thought it would he admitted that they hail done every thing that was practicable. It was difficult within so short a period to take a compre. hentrive view of se extensive a field as the ordnance, which . comprehended 320 stations, and included an infinity of accounts and matters connected with public works, re- • pairs, &c. Allowance would be made for the inexperience et the persons at present connected with the ordnance, anti he trusted that the Non. Member for Middlesex would admit that they could not have gone firther than they had in so short a time. He could assure the Committee that ad the establishments connected with the ordnance were then undergoing, and would continue to be submitted to a careful revision, with a view to the adption of every mea sure of economy and reduction consistent with their effi ciency and with the public service. The Hon. Member then moved that a sum not exceeding 80,619/. be granted to his Majesty far salaries of the Master-General and grin- • cipal officers and clerks of the ordnance departments at the Tower, Pall-mall, and Dublin, for the year 1831. Sir HENRY FANE declared his satis!action at the candid and honourable manner in which the Hon. Gentle man hail expressed himself with respect to the conduct of the late Board of Ordnance under the head of economy. Sir H. HARDINGE thought the present arrangement of the estimates a very good one upon the whole, and was disposed to admit that some of the alterations were likely to be beneficial. Ife contended, however, that the real saving to the public on the present estimate would be only about 3,000/., and that all the rest of the diminution of charge arose from the postponement of works to be performed, or from allowances on account of balances of stores. He did not approve of the abolition of the office of Lieutenant- General of the Ordnance; and argued, that with respect to the Marines and the Navy Board, the present Govern ment had pursued a course similar to that which they cen sured their predecessors for adopting in reference to the Ordnance. So much for the difference between the pro fessions of gentlemen when out of office, and their practice when in the possession of power. Mr. TENNYSON repeated his previous statements with respect to the total amount of diminished charges and saving upon the present estimate. He denied that the Right lion. and Gallant Member was correct in describing the saving as being only 3,0001.,—the Right lion. Gen tleman might just as well have asserted that it did not ex ceed 31. He (Mr. Tennyson) thought the details into which he had before entered must have satisfied the Com mittee that the actual saving would be, stating it at the lowest, 100,0001,, if net 166,0001. Sir N. HARDINEE reiterated his former statement, and contended that a diminution, on account of money not drawn for works, the progress of which was saved, could not be considered as a real saving of expenditure. With respect to the military schools, those establishments were all of a military nature, and if they were once let down, Ministers, he was sure, would not be able easily to raise them up again. Sir H. FANE wished to draw the attention of the Committee to one very important point, because it was connected with the efficiency of the nary. The sum of 53,0001. was called for on account of repairs. Now he doubted the adequacy of that sum, because he understood that a most experienced and intelligent officer had stated, that there were, at present, no less than 10,000 gun-car riages out of repair, and for which he could not answer. Situated as Europe was at present, this was a matter of naost serious importance. _ Mr. HUMEcensured the plan which Government had long adopted, of collecting large quantities of stores to perish and decay. Here it appeared, from the statement of the Hon. Baronet, that - there were 10,000 rotten gun carriages in store. The saving proposed in these estimates by his Majesty's Government were, he was sorry to say, very trifling, but he trusted that they would be greater hereafter. The whole expenditure under this head was ma nifestly too large, considering the situation of the country. Sir H. FANE denied that he had spoken of rotten gun carriages. He said it was reported that a most expe rienced officer had represented that there were 10,000 gun-carriages which were out of repair. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended, in opposition to the Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge), that a very considerable saving had been really effected in these estimates. He certainly considered the not calling for a grant, on account of certain works, as a saving._... Some of those works might hereafter be deemed unnecessary. Ssr H. HARDINGE maintained that a great saving had been made under the Duke of Wellington. In the salaries of civil officers alone, it was 47,0001. The num ber of stations now was one or two more than in 1792, though we had now seven or eight powder magazines in cluded amongst them. Mr. 51AI3ERLY said that the late Government had acted in the teeth of the report of the Committe of Finance, which hail recommended the abolition of the office of Lieut.-General of the Ordnance. The present Govern ment immediately abolished the office, and yet it was ad-, mirted the service was as well carried on without that office. Sir 11. HARDINGE s Lid the recommendation of the Committee was contrary to the evidence given before them. Sir G. WARRENDER admitted and praised the eco nomy of the present Government, and said that the con duct of the late Administration, in resisting reductions \Oriels had been recommended to them, brought about that measure of Reform which he so much deprecated. Mr. TENNYSON said that the present Government had not begun the ordnance estimates. They bad Only reviewed them. When they should have an opportunity of forming estimates of their own, a greater reductions might be expecte/J. The motion was then agreed to. The other items were then agreed to without observa tion ; and the House having resumed, the report was or dered to be received to-morrow (this day.) CIVIL LIST BILL. O R tin gacticon citht CIiAIiCELLGA of tht FACHEULIt, the ri Wont to a f; Govt read ; TI A th e u the 01 major Th e i Warii Donk deny Some of thi of de Fran , 100 equal sian -Du Bank 3 per 3 per 3 yi Ditto New: per 4 per tank Jan Ocl Jan Jan Ap Jan