The Sun. — London, England, 1825-02-11 00:00:00

seceintey. it was in the habit of calling what were termed aggre gate meetings, and which were held to express the sense of the Catholies of Ireland. These meetings were convened at re gular intervals ; and resolutions were passed approving and sanctioning every thing which the Association had done. I, therefore, the Associaton was not avowedly the representative of the Catholics, it took care to ac t for them first, and to obtain their approval afterwards. But what were those meetings ? They consisted principally of the Members of the Association, and the persons who spoke loudest and longest at them, and who passed the joggle off on the people were the orators of the Association, who merely expressed and' had proclaimed self-gratulatory compliments upon their own. eloquence, and their own conduct. It was next his (Mr. Goulo burn) duty to call the attentio n of .the House to some of the leading acts of that Society. There was first, under the guise of voluntary contributions, a levy on the public called " Catholic Rent," w hich, besides implying a power and right only lodged in the Legislature, was an onerous and grievous tax on the people of Ireland. No one could deny but the rent was a levy of money from his Majesty's subjects for objects not previously defined, but such as it might subsequently be ad visable to pursue. The system however by which that tax was collected was more obnoxious than the tax itself. There were' officers and inferior officers all depending on one another, and exhibiting an organization more dangerous than any purpose to which the fund could be applied. When a sum was to be raised, an order to that effect emanated from the Society at large, specific in every respect but in the amount to be raised. The mandate was issued to the Priest of each parish, who, by the same authority, was appointed Treasurer of the Rent. Instructions were also furnished him at the same time, and books, in which the contributions received, and other circumstances were to be carefully noted. On receipt of that mandate, the Priest announced from the Chapel—from the Altar—informing the congregation of the object to be effected, and calling upon individuals to take the office of col lectors. Nor had instances been wanted, when persons who re fused to act as collectors on that mandate, had been publicly censured by the priests, and held up in the chapel among their friends and neighbours as unworthy of all confidence or regard. —( H ear, hear !)—it was further a part of the duty of the priest to insert, or cause to be inserted in the books transmitted to him, the name of each contributor, and the amount of his con tribution, that both might be recorded in the archives of the Association. There were other books in which the names of those who did not contribute were registered, and a report made to the Association accordingly, that such persons might be handed down to posterity, with a suitable share of obloquy and odium.—( Hear, hear, hear !),--But the Association went still further. Some Gentlemen who had thought it a griev ance on their tenantry to be compelled thus to tax themselves— who saw with pain and regret a miserable peasanty suffering want and penury, and unable to give their children the meanest • education, mulcted of a part of their heed earnings—advised the people not to pay the Catholic Rent." The consequence was that the Catholic Association was filled with letters from the: Priests in those districts, denouncing and holding up to scorn and-reprobation—he (Mr. Goulburn) would not say to vengeance—the gentlemen who had so interfered.—(Hear !) liere no definite object was assigned for the application of the money so raised, so torn from the people.—(Elear, hear, - from the Opposition Benches)—Gentlemen who doubted the cruelty and force of the exaction were not perhaps aware of the power which the Catholic Priests exercised over their flocks. As lied lately been mentioned in that House they assumed the au thority of absolving from sin, and of abstaining from affording absolution. Could it be Imagined then that in addressing a low and ignorant peasantry, and in applying, if not the authority at least the influence of the priestly office, in extorting contribu tions from the poor—could it be said that the payment did not proceed from compulsion—was not torn from those unable to spare it ?--( Hear, hear !)—He (Mr. Goulburn)would now tres pass on the House while he adverted to the application of the money thus collected. To some parts of the application he did not offer any objection. The Catholic Association might give briefs to certain Barristers to defend the Catholics,or theymight appoint an Agent in London to superintend their English affairs. 'These proceedings he should not impugn, whatever he might think of their discretion. Neither should he make theintere Terence of the Association with the Liberty of the Press any; ground of charge against a body who set up a claim to tiberality of sentiment on the part of others as well as it self. He should say nothing of the very considerable part of the press which the Association had retained as its ad vocates, nor of the other part of the press which it had deter mined to persecute—nor of its union with Mr. Cobbett, and the sums expended in disseminating his writings throughout the country. It was not, however, because lie was insensible to, the tendency of those acts, but because there were other modes in what the " rent" was applied more deserving of reprehen sion. He was unwilling to detain the House, but he could. not help a reference to the interference of that Body with the ordinary administration of justice. He knew that any obser vation of this sort he might make would give rise to remarks upon an Association which had existed in England. In the first place, however, an Association might be legal in this coun - try which would neither be legal nor expedient in Ireland—for then it might be attended with more prejudicial consequences. But the Catholic Association had not only interfered with the ordinary administration of justice, but had intermingled itself with all the preliminary proceedings before the inferior tribu nals. In investigations before a single Magistrate, in trials at - the Petty Session--(Hear, hear !)—and in Coroner's Inquests, the agents of the Association were employed. Nor upon those occasions was the interference of the agents confined to the cases tinder consideration, but every thing calculated to :awaken or exasperate political animosity was urged—the Magistrates were personally appealed to—and the alleged sufferings of the Catholics were pleaded in extenuation of crime, and in violation of justice. Every Court of Petty -:Sessions even was attended, when the occasion was thought fit., by Cuunsel delegated by the Catholic Association— delegated for the purpose of perplexing by the subtlety and intricacies of his argument the course of the legal pro ceedings. He spoke from what had really happened, and not from any ideal picture of his own. Such had been the effect of this line of conduct in some parts of the country, that many Magistrates had been reduced to the necessity of retiring from the Courts where they were subjected to this sort of per secution. He would, however, draw their attention to the effect of this course in some of the higher Courts. It happened that about the end of July last a statement reached the Catho lic Association relative to a murder committed in the parish of leallybey. The writer stated that the murder was committed by an Orangeman upon a Roman Catholic, under circumstances of gre it aggravation, and was coupled with an expression of in dignation that the Association had not interfered without wait ing for the stimulus of the writer's account. In the first place he wished the House to remark upon this case, that the letter •to which he alluded containing all these details, was publicly circulated over the country by the Catholic Association, before the individual charged was put upon his trial.—(Hear, hear!) — In the second place he should call their attention to the course adopted by the Association in pursuance of the matter. Arm gaeng to themselves the functions of Parliament, a meeting was convened at which the letter was read, and a resolution re gularly passed and entered upon their journals, " That upon the motion of S. D. Mullen, the Committee appointed to hives tigate the circumstances of the recent murder in the parish of Ballybey, be summoned to meet upon Monday next, and the .communications upon the subject being laid before them, they be authorized to adopt whatever proceedings may appear re quisite:"—(Cheers from the Opposition.)—He (Mr. Goulburn) • begged to observe that he was stating facts, and he thought it would be more to the satisfaction of the Hon. Gentlemen oppo - site to reserve their cheers till they should hear the end of the case. This Committee, he had to inform the House, made a report, in which they declared the case in . question was one which called for the interference of the Association, and recom mended that Mr. Kiernan should be directed to conduct the pro secution. This accordingly took place. Mr. Kiernan did con duct the prosecution ; but it was material to consider what was the consequence of all this to the individual placed upon his trial.. In consequence of this report, and the publicity of the statement upon which it was founded, he went to trial with the - opinion of the whole Catholic population of the country against him.—(Hear, hear !)—He appeared upon the day of his trial, with the supposed facts elicited by the investigation of the Ca • tholic Association arrayed_ against him, the result of which was that a Catholic hadbeen slain by him because he was a Catho- He would, however, trouble the Houseto pursue the pro ceedings in this case to their t erns i na tion. At the trial a variety of witnesses were produced, who severally swore to the most horrible aats of cruelty on the part of the prisoner. One swore to his having jumped upon the throat of the deceased; another that he had inhumanly kicked him in the ribs when h e lay upon the ground; others spoke to the fact of hi having broken the deceased's arm, and went on with a sea ries of the most shocking-recitals. But how were the facts of the case, as proved in the- progress of the .trial. The sur geons who examined the body were produced—men beyond imputation as to character, and also beyond the influence of • the Catholic Association. They proved to the complete saris - faction of the Court and the J Hear, ury, that on the body there was no one mark of violence. — ( h am{ deceased, it ap peared; had received his.death by accidentally falling upon a small post, and breaking thereby one of the vertebra of his neck. Added-to this, in the defence circumstances came out highly honourable to the individual, as to his conduct upon the occasion which had brought the d eceased to his death.-.-(f ear !) - He would not leave this case without reciting to the House the words of the Judge, upon discharging the prisoner. They were to the following effect :-.-" I do not think it right to - discharge you from the place where yon now stand without ex . 'resting to you my entire satisfaction at your c onduct u pon the veiling to which your trial has had reference. It is evident from whathaa transpired in the course of your trial, that you. exerted ourself to the utmost to preserve the pe a c e, and y our conduct entitles you to the highest praise."—(Hear, hear !) Yet this was the individual who had been denounced for a whole fortnight before his trial as having been guilty of the most abhorrent crime under the most aggravated circum stances ; and against whom were animated'the feelings of the whole country of whatever party. It lab been said, he be lieved by the Hon. Member for Midhurat, that if he admired any thing in the catholic Association,. it was its interference in the administration of justice in Ireland. Now if the case which he had cited was a specimen of the improvement wrought by their interference, and he really thought it was a fair specimen, he hoped they would not long hold the power of administering such improvement. For his part he preferred the old and approved principles and practice of the law of the country by which every individual, was re garded as-innocent until proved to be guilty.—( Hear, hear ! ) Nowithstanding the lights which the Catholic Association had shed upon the subject, he still continued to think that it was fairer towards an individual under trial for his life to abstain from any effort to inflame the minds of people against him. He was also of opinion that it would be better if Jurors who sub scribed rent, as it was termed, should not have the prosecution in which they acted conducted by those to whom that rent was paid.—(Hear.!)—But this was not the only case of a similar nature which had come to his knowledge. In January last it had been announced to the Association by the Priest of the parish of Newmarket, that a soldier of -the 25th regiment had been detected in an attempt to seduce the people from their allegiance by offering to administer illegal oaths to them. The name of the soldier was Stephen Hanley, and the Priest in his letter stated that " the ruffian was apprehended in his attempt to persuade four men to take the illegal oaths. Upon being asked what the nature of the oaths were, he said it sat to be true to each other, and that they were to kill all the soldiers, all the Orangemen, and all the Ptotes'ants. He said that the Dean had selected him as the most proper man to enlighten the people." The letter went on to say, that the " reffian" had been arrested ; that the witnesses had attempted to deny the facts, but that a more deer case of guilt, and one better proved, had never been known ; that it behoved the Association to come forward, or nothing would be done, and, in the opinion of the writer, he had better be transported immediately, as the best means to stop the career of similar incendiaries. When this had first met his eye he did not believe it possible that it eonld be an invention for the pur pose of making the Government, out to be the seducers, and for the purpose of making the soldiers and the people, who had hitherto been friendly, regard each other as enemies. The case, however, came on before a numerous Bench of Ma gistrates, fortyethree in number ; but such was the contra dictory nature of the evidence adduced on the part of the prosecution, that the Bench was unanimous in the opinion that it need not go to the Jury. At the head of this Bench was Mr. Blackburn, whose respectability and legal competency no one in that House would deny.—(Hear !)—This soldier was not only subjected to imprisonment, and to every vile appella tion that could be given to him, but lie was actually denounced at the altar by the priessuf the parish where he was taken up. The priest went so far as to tell his auditors to be cautious against the soldiers, whose object was to lead them astray, in order that they might afterwards shoot them like dogs—( H ear !) —To this admonition he added the humane promise that he would seek out the mother of the woman to whom the soldier was married, and have her sent out of the country. This was a new mode of administering the law in a Christian country, where the innocent mother of the wife of a prisoner was to be expelled from her home, to become a wanderer in a foreign land. Again he said lie preferred the old mode of adminis tering the laws to that which the Catholic Association would introduce. Let the reverse case be imagined, in which he (Mr. Goulburn) or any other Minister were to act the part proposed here to be acted, to send the innocent mother out of the country, on which side would the shouts then be ?—( Hear, hear!) --Why then should they show more leniency to the Ca tholic Association than they would do to a responsible 31:nieter of the Crown ? The case he had just related had been followed by a similar one, in which a policeman was the victim—the ob ject there was to render the whole body of the police odious to the people, and to excite the acrimony of party in the admi nistration of justice. He could relate many cases of the same description, but he would leave them, and come to the subject of the proclamations of the Catholic Association. One had appeared in the month of December last, in which they boasted that they had restored tranquillity to the country.— About that time it appeared they began to entertain a great aversion to Whiteboy offences; and they bethought them selves that it was true, as they eossessed some influence in the country, to obtain the suffrage of the respectable portion of the country, who had hitherto kept aloof from some feeling of alarm with regard to them. He would not trouble the House to hear him read the whole of the address, but there were certain pasts to which he would call their attention. In the early part they called upon their adherents to abstain from all illegal meetings and acte, and especially from White boyism. Having done this they urged their argument in sup port of it. One of these was the power of the law, which, if effectively administered, would assuredly be too strong for them ; and then said the proclamation, " how many innocent persons have we seen suffer transportation." Here it appeared that they could not advise the people to abstain from out rage without libelling the law, by asserting that people were transported under it who were guilty of no offence. On behalf of the Ir ish Government he begged to state, and the Committee which sat last Session upon Irish affhirs would concur with him in the assertion, that there was nothing to which the Lord Lieu tenant paid more attention to than to this branch of its func tions. Every case underwent his particul ar attention, in order to insure that no man should suffer the sentence of the law where there was a shadow of evidence in his favour. Yet the writer of this paper was a man not ignorant of the laws of evidence and the legal justice of his country. This was the outset of the Pro clamation ; but he would presently show what were the motives at the bottom of this conciliatory address. These were placed at the conclusion, which was intended as the strong point of the whole, to sum up as it were the merit of the Address, and shew the principal upon which the Association professed to act, and that which it was the object of the Address to incul. cate. This passage called upon them, in the name of common sense, and by the hatred they bore to Orang emen, their natural enemies, their respect for their priests, and reverence for the religion of the living God, to observe the exhortations of the Ad dress. This document had been penned upon a Sabbath, the writer pretending to conceive that he was doing a work agree able to God. But could any man be so ignorant as to believe he was doing his holy work when he placed two such sentiments side by side, as love to God and hatred to his creature ?—(Hear !) —What could be the nature of that Association, which could pro mulgate sucha doctrine as acceptable to God as love of hisreligion and hatred to his neighbour? This, he feared, was part of thecreed of all the Catholics ; and coupling this part with the effect of their interference in the administration of justice in the country, what, he asked, must be the consequence of such a body continuing to act, with the influence and the designs which they had manifested ? This sentiment had been affirmed by the Association, when called upon by one of the members to impugn and reject it. He was therefore entitled to assume that they concurred in it as a body, the approach to unanimity having been such that they would not even divide upon the pro. position to reject it. This proclamation had been sent to every priest in the country, by him to be read publicly in the church. —( Hear, hear !) —I f there wanted a proof of the influence of this Association, this, which procured that the priests should in culcate from the altar " hatred to their natural enemies," their fellow-creatures, would suffice for that purpose. For their re ligion was based Upon the same principles as our own, and so great a departure from those principles argued a proportionate influence. This paper had been read upon the Sabbath to the congregations of the respective churches, and left to work its effect on the ignorant minds of the populace. Under these circumstances, was it surprising that an anxiety upon the sub ject of this body should be felt by the Government of Ire land ? Having forborne, until forbearance was almost a crime, they now called upon Parliament to protect the country, not only from political but from religious dan ger. Was it possible to look on inactive any longer, whilst this Association continued in its baleful course, perverting justice, sowing the seeds of disunion, and proclaiming open hatred to a great portion of the population ? It was to be ob served that the consequences of former Associations were still fresh in the memory of that country. In 1791 a similar body arose. styling themselves United Irishmen. There were other associations strongly resembling in their nature the Ca t h olic Association which flourished at this period, the termination of which they could not forget. He would not recur to the events of those times, of which indeed it was impossible to think without horror. He would merely remind them that the United Irishmen began by professing, like the Catholic Asso ciation, that they were assembled for the purpose of obtaining emancipation. It was distinctly laid down in their first ad dress that emancipation was what they had in view, in order to induce the concurrence of the country. The House well knew, from the subsequent confessions of some of the par ties, that revolution and separation from England were their real objects. They, too, like this association, had endea voured to levy rent, and they defended criminals by counsel out of-their own body. He must, however, in justice to them, say, that they never attempted to transport an innocent soldier, nor crush a meritorious officer. But, lie again asked, was there a - 1y w vier that the Irish Government should call upon Parliament with a loud voice to rescue the country from the impending danger of this new Association ? He wished to present the question under a new face. Supposing Government or Parliament were to refuse the protection re quired from them, and not give redress for the wrongs of the peaceable part of the community, or to confine the evil within certain limits—could they expect that those who were opposed to this .body woeld not, upon the principle of self-defence, ere. rOl themselves into a body possessing the same power, exer cising the same autherity, andanterfering in like manner in the a lministration of the laws ?—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.)—And could that House be insensible to the evils of a double Parliament ao established—wherein a contest would he ;arried on, not by individuals, but by two conflicting rival Oodies, engrossing the whole power and consideration of the dngdom, and dividing-it into opposing parties ? Would they wish such a state of things to exist, wherein when a copse was to be tried, they would have the counsel of the --Catholic' Association marshalling all the etitlePce on bne side, and the hostile faction doing the same on the other ? Could they desire to see rival Proclamations and recriminations issuing from the Protestants and Catholics ? What every good man must wish to sea their dissensions buried for ever iii oblivion, could they w.s I to see the rival faetions eaerting.theMselves to perpetuate ? He called upon the gentlemen from Ireland to say whether they would live in a country subject to such a species of double domination. Whatever objections there might be to the de ails of his measure, there c mid not be, he was convinced, any objection to the principle of a measure which should be direct dto the removal of such an evil. It would not be denied that stone measure was necessary. Before he came to state the nature of the measure itself he would make a few observations with re ference to other obnoxious Societies in Ireland. Two years ago, with the unanimous concurrence of the House, he had brought in a Bill to suppress Secret Societies in Ireland. In some parts of that country this Bill had achieved its object ; but in other parts the Societies which it had7been desired to put down, had new modelled themselves so as to evade the penalties of the Bill, and still continued to meet. Some had substituted for •the ille gal oaths, the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, which the members were obliged to take before a Magistrate, and to pre -e it a certificate to that effect, to entitle them to admission.— Now, it was his wish to.carry the Statute still further, so as to lea at these cases. He proposed, therefore, that the Bill which he d aired leave to introduce, should meet the two cases he had det tiled ; diff.aing certainly in extent of danger, but in a consti tutional point of view, equally important. With respect to the Catholic Association, the leading features objectionable in that body were its permanency of aitting, and obtaining rent ; and the Bill would accordingly contain a provision to prevent its continuing to sit permanently, or to levy funds. In other-re spects the Bill wotiltl be directed against all corresponding and illegal societies ; it would render illegal all societies having for their object the promotion of any particular religion '(as the Right Hon. Gentleman -was understood) ; and it would further cause the oaths appointed by the different Acts of Parliament to be taken in the spirit of those Acts, and not in such a way as should render them .subservient to illegal purposes. Certain exceptions would be inserted for the purpose of exempting par ticular calms of society, and to prevent the perversion of law by vexatious prosecutions. These were the leading principles of the Bill, which heakarnestly'hoped the House would consent to entertain. No others- cause, it appeared to him, was left to that house than to mark their abomination of this Society, which curtailed the prerogative of the Crown, invaded the privi leges of the people, and disturbed the whole frame of the com munity, by shewing a manly determination and energy to sup press it. They would thus phew they were not insensible to their own dignity and rights, and, the high responsible duties of their station. 'rhereliad been a time when that House would deal with such a eaaesivith a degree of energy, which by a mere display of their authority would effectually put dawn an evil like this. He believed that such a display upon the present occasion would penetrate the great mass of the people, however they might be swayed by the Catholic Association. 'rue result of a decisive course a such as he recommended, would be that tranquillity and peace would be establisheilina country at pre sent torn by faction, and menaced with new disturbances. By a course thus marked by wisdom and prudence, would creland be admitted to her just-share in the general prosperity, peace, and happiness of the empire. Animated by this hope, he had risen on the present occasion, and would leave his motion to the decision of the House, with the idlest confidence.__( he Right Hon. Gentleman wasiondly cheered upon sitting down.) The motion was then put from the Chair, " That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend certain Ac ts relating to un lawful Societies in , Ireland?" Mr. J. SMITH observed, that it was remarkable that in in troducing a measure of this nature, the Right t lion. Gentleman should have given • them so long a description as to its neces sity upon his own statement.—(Hear!) --He would as soon take his assertion, as any other mari's -that he tnew; but the was bound to consider that its was a public measure,in which case he did not feel himself at liberty to credit unsupported state ments ; and he desired to know whether there was any evidence to spew that the Catholic Association deserved the character which had been given to it. The Right Honourable Gen tleman, although he said he would not go back to former periods, did go back, and painted them in very glaring colours to ). Nov he, (Mr. Smith) could not rip up old stories* or he dared to say he could recall parallel horrors to any which fie Right Honourable Gentleman could adduce. He might ask them to turn their eves to -the scenes of 1790—t0 the conflagrations and seditious cries of that time but he thought it unnecessary. According to the Right Honourable Gentle man, one migot .suppose that the Orange Socities were the meat mild and benevolent in the world. But, in the North of Ire land, the most horrid disorders had taken place, which were attributed to the Orangemen. He himself had presented a petition from an individual who had been brutally used by twenty-five Orangemen. He ( pursued .these men—they were tried and acquitted, he supposed by a jury of Orangemen.— Upon this topic he could not help adverting to the opinion de livered by the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Lord Redes dale), who had 'for twenty years administered the law in that country. He said, that there was one law for the rich and one for the poor, and that they were both equally ill administered. He ds ipproved of-thepaper which the Right Hon. Gentleman had read as much as' that Right Hon. Gentleman could do himself ; but it skewed to him that there existed amongst the Catholics a profound sense of injustice, the result of their long experience of ,injuries. With respect to the proceed ings of the Government in recent cases, they seemed to him in this, as on many other occasions, to be deficient in common sense. About the year 1809 Lord Liverpool had written a let- I ter to parties who were before the public, shewing that the ' oaths taken by Orangemen were illegal, and quoting the Acts of Parliament which made them so. This referred to such associations in this country; but what could be the reason after this public exposure of the fact that ()range Societies were allowed to exist in Ireland? He thought that many in nocent persons must have been transported under the Insur rection Act; for it was a remarkable fact, that the Irish con victs in New South Nl 7 ales were the most orderly class of per sons there. He sincerely hoped the measure of the Right Hon. IGentleman might produce the effects he anticipated from it, I but he had the misfortune to see mast of the acts of Govern , ment take a contrary effect upon that unhappy country. There was one mode, and one only, by which it would be possible to pacify Ireland. That was to grant to the Catholics of that country the same rights as were enjoyed by the Protestants — (Hear, hear o—They had seen this step taken fearlessly in Hanover, and in Maryland they saw the Catholics and Dissen ters conduct their mutual interests in the most amicable union. He defied the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for the Home Department to produce one single instance, from modern or ancient history, in which the most extensive to leration had ever been productive of any harm. On the contrary, it would be found that toleration was the secret by which to manage all religious sects. Before he sat down, he must express his grief that the measure was calculated to defer the hopes of the Catholics as to the attainment of their rights. He was sorry to see it supported by the Right Honour able Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in whom he had no doubt existed a sincere wish to do away with the disabilities under which that body laboured. This he was assured would excite their resentment, and add to their various disappointments.— Ile had already expressed his gratitude to that Right Honour able Gentleman for the statesman-like manner in which he had conducted the great measure of the recognition of the States of South America.—( Hear, hear !)—He had been at once careful of the national honour and interests, and perfectly just to all parties.—(Hear!)—This rendered it an .additional mortification to see him depart from the liberal character of his administra -don, and would tend more than any thing to destroy in the minds of the Catholics the hopes which they had conceived from him. But surely if there was any task worthy of his great talents and high ambition, it was that of healing the wounds of his country.—(Hear !)—He was perhaps the only man who could do it ; and what pleasure, he repeated, could be equal to that of raising the land of his birth from misery and distraction to unalloyed happiness and prosperity ? He could not persuade himself that this was not his intention. In justice to Ireland he would do it. Whatever his motive was for withholding it, and probably it was a good one, the day he was sure would arrive, and his would be the hand to achieve freedom for Ireland. With respect to this Bill, lie had not so distinctly heard the na ture of it as stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goul burn) to be able -to give any opinion. All that he could sa y was, that if it appeared to him to trench upon the rights of a n y set of individual in Ireland, he would, oppose it. ABERCROMBY said, that whatever pleasure the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland might have in opening this measure to the House, it was a task of real sorrow for him (Mr. Abercromby) to join in the discussion. He looked upon the measure as one which went to sap the foundations of the peace of the country. He could give no assent to it. He regretted the existence of the Catholic Association, but 90 grounds very different from others. Some persons regretted !as existence, because, so long as it did exist, and so long as its leaders continued their present activity, they afforded a threet evidence of the solid grievances under which the Catholics suf. fered ; because its tendency and inevitable gay.e clear and undeniable , effect was to bring - to light many thin g s which these persons dud not wish to see. ge But he, on the othe r hand reet t e d its existence, because it priof of the nuflyersation of Go. vernment s because it caused the finger of scorn to be raised against England, and enabled the bitterest enemies of the coun try to question the wisdom and honesty of our rulers. If he were asked whether the Catholic Association ought to cease, he would answer at once yes ; /tot that he was disposed to agree with the Right Hon. Secretary's; proposition. In that propo sition he saw (what the Right lion. Gentleman himself stated) the commencement of a system to keep pace with the inge nuity of the peo4le. _But s thottgli it waain the power of Par liament to destroy by a' sins, act tilt-Catholic Associa tion, yet they woulll thereby. apasoach a single step towardi eradicating lts t thile. The. "fight -Honourable Secretary wished to make war against the symptoms of evil; he (Mr. A.) wished to make war against the causes. Emancipation was the only weapon which could destroy those causes.— I(Hear !)—He could not but speak in praise, of the spirit which sustained the Catholic Association, so long as the Government I were determined to act in the same spirit which generated it. That spirit was one of injustice towards the people of Ireland, for the Catholics formed in fact the Irish people. It was of importance to inquire into the necessary effect of the Right Honourable Gentleman's Bill. It would tend to aggregate all the offensive and offended feelings of the country, and increase to an incalculable degree the very evil it was intended to re ' press. On the contrary, lie (Mr. Abercromby), in conjunc don with some of the ablest and wisest men that ever sat in Parliament, believed that emancipation was the surest way to destroy those odious distinctions which at present separated and degraded the country. It would create a feeling of affec tion amongst the Catholics, and consolidate them throughout the Empire. On this general -view it was that he resisted the proposition of the Right Hon. Secretary. That Itight Hon. Gentleman had engaged in much severe language against the Catholic Association itself. He (Mr. A.) did not stand there to defend it, but lie must say that he did not recognize the jus tice of such censure. It had been likewise urged, that only a small portion of the Catholic population of Ireland would enter into the feelings of the leaders of that body, because the larger mass was not at all affected by the exclusion of Lord Fingal from the House of Peers, and the withholding a silk gown from Mr. O'Connell. It was very surprising to hear such observations from parsons who had been in Ireland, and knew any thing about the feelings of the people. The truth was, that the people felt not merely suCli exclusions, but they perceived and felt likewise the many other evils of the system. If they united in associations, it was because they saw associations banded together against them. The Orange societies first impressed upon them the necessity of similar unions in their own defence. They saw, too, a large propor tion of the Established Church of England habitually taking a decided part against them. The Church of England united itself with a political party against the Catholics, and ever since the time when Lord Sidmouth declared that Catholic exclusion was the tenure by which he held office, the Church of England had acted upon the principle that Catholic exclusion was their bond of union. When, therefore, they saw these unions in Ire land and in England—when they saw the arguments employed against them in Parliament—when they saw themselves for twenty-live years the victims of Mr. Pitt's broken promise— when they saw themselves objects of suspicion, scorn, or hatred, was it to be wondered that they should form an union to exhibit their strength and discharge their feelings? 'They had shewn that strength and that feeling, but in no way that violat ed the law of the land. Had there been any real grounds. for proceeding against the Association as violating the laws, it would have been most assuredly proceeded against. Every one must have been convinced of this, who had observed the' abortive measures recently pursued against one of their leading members—measures which he would not characterize as they deserved. But the very fact that no other attempt to prose cute had been made, and the failure of that solitary attempt was a conclusive proof that they had not violated the law ; and yet with i full knowledge of the unions against the Associa tion, and with a full knowledge that the Association had trans gressed no law, Parliament was called upon to persist in the course which had generated the evil, and was asked to coun tenance a set of measures that were (as tke Right Honour able Proposer had candidly admitted) to keep pace with the ingenuity of the people. He (Mr. A.) abjured such a system as necessarily leading to a separation of the two countries.— The Bight Hon. Gentleman had gravely deplored the union of the two opposite characters of priest and politician. Such an union was no doubt very calamitous, and deserved to be abo minated. But not less to be abominated was the Protestant Bishop, who united the trade of politician with his sacred cha; racier, than was the Catholic Bishop who entered into the same union. It made no difference that the one abounded in wealth and dwelt in a palace, and the other lived in obscure poverty. If it. was wrong to preach politics at the Catholic altar, it must be'equally wrong to preach politics from a Protestant pulpit.— He (Mr. Abercromby) asked for equal and impartial justice, and was unwilling to see the priest condemned for leading up his flock to the poll, whilst the Protestant clergyman was suf fered to escape censure for interfering in elections, The Right Hon. Secretary had also objected to the Association for interfer ing in the administration of justice. Now he (Mr. A.) knew of several cases in which their administration had been of the greatest benefit. It had taught the rich that they were amen- . able to the law, and the poor, that they were not shut out.from I the law's protection. He hoped the House would excuse his mentioning the instances, and take his word for their existence. He felt grateful to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the selection of cases he had made, as they proved the very reverse of what they were meant to prove. Granting that the Catholic Associa tion were as malignant as they had been described, what was the fact ? Why that in the first case quoted by the Right Hon. Secretary the party was acquitted. The second case did not touch the Associatiation at all. It touched the conduct of a Catholic Priest; and if the case had been correctly stated, no one could deny but that that conduct deserved severe reprobation. And even in that case the individual tried was acquitted before a Bench of Magistrates presided over by an upright, honourable, and able lawyer, Mr. Blackburn. That acquittal was a most consolatory circumstance, for it showed that Justice was still to be found in Ireland. It sheaved, also, that the case selected afforded no ground of accusation against the Catholic Asso ciation. When the question of such Associations had ever been discussed, lie (Mr. Abercromby) had always stated that the great objection to them was the influence they were likely to have over Juries. Yet the cases shown by the Right Hon. Gentlemen were not of conviction but of acquittal, where the cause of justice had triumphed. If lie were not mistaken, they were cases where, on the Right Hon. Gentleman's own show ing, the Juries were partly composed of persons contributing to the Catholic Rent. (Mr. Goulburn, said No.) The Learn ed Member said that he wished at no time to misrepresent I any person, at least of all at present, when the cases which the [ Right Hon. Gentleman had quoted, proved beyo nd q uestion that justice still prevailed in Ireland. Why, then, lie would ask, legislate upon the question ? Any new laws were both un necessary and absurd. What must be the consequences ? Even suppose the Association to be a silly Association, sup pose the speakers to be trashy and common-place, suppose that they continued to publish statements of grievances and oppressions, and to send persons down into the country to pre. sscute, and that the innocent continue to be acquitted. Th e necessary inference was, that any legislative enactments were unnecessary because die Association was harmless, and must die of itself. Great stress had been laid by three Right lion. Cd societies ; We passages : r Gentlemen opposite on an address published by the Associa tion. That Address he had rea d at .the time to the news prpers, and whether the effect of prejudice or not he could l r l e y a t f l ro one n e all o r secret two e not say, but bating some strong ex p ressions peculiar to Irish men, he considered it an hono urable p roof of the virtue a nd pa triotism advisthee se author's. youto liea refrain otadfrom all private combina tion, from ever y s p ecies o f White boyism, or Ribbonism , or whatever other name a ny secret or private association may be called. We would not attempt to deceive or delude y ou ; we could net obtain your confi dence if we were to s tate falsehoods; and if we could, we wott would not purchase confidence at the expence of truth." It was impossible for any sounder and b " better advice to be g iven. It went on to say , that whenever , hiteboy or Ribbonmen of fences were committed, many innocent persons will inevi tably be convicted of,,crimes they never comm i tte d . " Th e ex pression was will, and not have been." In this the As sociation stated that which was . perfectly true, f or w h erever the passions o f men were excited, and disturbances ensued, the innocent were sure to , be confounded with th e gu ilty, and often suffere d for them. How many innocent persons we known to stiffer transportation ? and how many have we seen s uffer death by reason of Whiteboy crimeo any should be . glad to know what there was offensive t . o any on e in this passage ? However great the crime might be, he wou ld say . that he perfectly concurred with ever y sentiment contained in it. The same passage, whilst it condemned in formers, absolved the Government. There was nothing in that part of the Address with which every dispassionate man would not perfectly agree. The Learned Gentleman said he would pass over some of the intervening passages, until he came to the following :—" In the name then of consnon s ense, which forbids you to set foolish courses, by the h a t e you bear the Orangemen, who are your natural enemies ; by the confidence you repose in the Catholic Association, who are your natural and zealous friends; by the respect and affection you entertain for your clergy, who alone visit with comfort your beds of sickness and desolation ; by all these powerful motives, and still more by the affectionate reverence you bear for the gra cious Monarch, who deigns to think of your sufferings with a view to your reliefs and above all, a nd infinitely beyond all, in the name of religion and of the living God, we coo jure you to abstain from all secret and illegal societies., and Whitehoy disturbances and .outrages." In this para graph the offensive words were, " the hate you bear to Orangemen." If the paper had said, " 1 conjure you to bate the Orangemen, and to declare irreconcileable -war against the Orangemen," then, indeed, no expression of ab, horrence could be too strong for them. Now there was no elt. , hortation to war here, but to peace. He regretted the passage' because many persons thought it tended to injure the Catholic cause. He did not understand it in the same obnoxious sense . himself, and even if he did, what was the fact ? Why, that Parliament, by its own measures, had engendered these fright. ful animosities, and lot tiger ught eo e legislate a g ainst thos e ti tilba who gave way to then\ In no cr elmstances could such a phrase be made the ground of legis ion. If the Catho lics of Ireland .were really anxious to the ends of legiti etnaee.vOtion,twere ethey'eo -be pr 'oiled from turningt ° eateeetheir pAt e elx•Perience? og da two great boOns which had heretofore been granted to Ireland, one had been granted when the Government was almost under duress, and the other was at the time of the Union, for the purpose of eee citing a feeling favourable to that measure. The Convention , as every body knew, was animated by the genius of Mr. Grat tan, and guided by the judgment of Lo.d Charlemont, and yet that Convention affected less than might have been imagined. The Catholic Association, as he had before said, never wo ula have existed if it had not some solid grievances to complain of, and, he would add, that it could not have existed so long if it had outraged the good sense of the co tntry. The Convention , so long as it had such grievances to complain of, and so long as it acted prudently, possessed the confidence of the people, bu t as soon as it diverged from this rah, it excited the dislike of the people, and was destroyed. At present the only wise method of destroying the Catholic Association was to grant Catholic Emancipation. Without emancipation the measures now before the House were useless and absurd. The Right Hon. Gentleman had contended that the most formidable part of the Association was the collection of the Rent. If what had been urged We / true—that the Rent was collected in a manner amounting nearli to compulsion, it was easy to foresee its speedy termination! This very argument of the Right Honourable Gentleman Wag a strong reason for leaving the Association alone. One of the. two alternatives the Government must choose ; to let it alone , or to put it down by violence. The Catholic Association e%' isted on the principle of enthusiasm, and as that enthusiast!' could not be permanent, the Association would necessarily d l l with it. But if it were put down by violence the spirit w ont ° not die • it would increase daily and hourly. He was eon' vinced that the effect of the present Bill would be to make the Catholic feelings ten times stronger than ever. The Association' had united the affections of the greet body of the Catholics. . 1- ; might have bt en formerly doubt( d whether it were possible fo ' the Catholic i op nation of Ireland to be so united and brough t forward to act on one object. This doubt had been complete ] t reselved by the Catholic Association. Ministers had said the; the Association should not endure any longer. With resPe, c , to the time (the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman , 3' 11 : Canning) of its dissolution, this was certainly the worst the could be chosen, because it was clear that the Association stood well with the people, and that its leaders, if they Wel now comp:lied to retire, would retire with the people d confidence. The Catholic body ftlt itself raised and elevateei by the Association, and so long as the Association ex iste d they would proceed with more steadiness and good sense °v.' wards the great end of Catholic Emancipefon. Some pers on seemed to think that Emancipation had been thrown back b; the proceedings of the Catholic Association. He did not thin g so ; for in spite of all the vituperations against that Body , a'• in spite of the charge that it h; d assumed the power of 6(?; vernment, and even a greater power, yet the people of tin!, country were convinced that things could not remain rotl e 4 longer in their present state, and that the only way fb re ctor tranquillity was to grant Catholic Emancipation. He bad ilea"- with great astonishment the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ce; ning) say, th it the country was greatly opposed to it. NoW A , did not believe this. The Catholic question was of vital imP ° ante to the safety and interest of the empire. Under all cir c t: stances—under "good report and evil report," without any W e ference to time, be would hold by the Catholic question• ete, would speak his sentiments upon it boldly, plainly, and hones The truth must and would sink into the public mind, and sh o e itself in the public conduct. This was his conviction, and i would always express it, without crouching or trucking to le one. Whenever the Catholic question wits brought forward, . should pursue this straight forward co ire The system e . nounced this night appeared to him as most dangerolle• n , If Emancipation had been granted at the time of the U ni° e , it would have been no doubt better ; but could he have f°l. o seen the broken promises of Mr. Pitt, he should even b!e preferred the present time as the fittest for conferring be'pe boon, because the measure would carry so many advantels to Ireland in its train. The abandant capital of England would follow it to Ireland, and the people of both kingdoms 10°Peo be knit and united in the closest bonds. Even now he fibe not certain that the question of Emancipation would 1 3 °'. e . carried during the year 1825, in some new and unheard of meet. ner. He should not be surprised if, when the Hon. Menwoe for Westminster should present the Catholic petition , 6° to , Orange Member should rise, and by anticipation, oile r . eS grant Emancipation on the condition that the forty freeholders be abolish& d. But let not any one believe that ' p p was the way in which Catholic Emancipation ought to be 01, lie ed. He always believed that the great objection to Catu e , e o Emancipation was Protestant monopoly. The Otange e l ;et finding that the Catholics were beginning to think, fe.l, an d 0. for themselves, would try to enter into someting like a comfit Wi hoot examining the bargain thoroughly he would go so ni, to say that thie was not the hest way to grant Catholic Eleei pat on. Experience justified him in saying that such a me t e et would never do. With respect to, the present Irish Governll46. he would say, that he approved of many parts of Lord We'oe ley administration ; but, on the whole, it appeared to him t v eS a total failure. When Lord Wellesley with his known opin' o f accepted that Government, he placed himself in a situation„, great hazard. For himself, he (Mr. Abercromby) had ale ht wished that Lord Wellesley might have fair play, and 0 1 4• not be made a victim to the Orangemen. The Right Hon. G en t, (Mr. Goulhurn) had eulogized the Noble Lord's Governor pt' and claimed for it almost " absolute wisdom ;" but in eaeiti tion as he praised that Government, in the same proportion ee. it appear to be a total failure ; for if the present violent 1 11 0 0, sures were necessary under a Government of absolute seis'a e re it was clear that that wisdom had been insufficient to pr° ,he and preserve public order. There was another inferenc"iP would draw from this fact—that every Government mus t i ees until Catholic Emancipation be granted. As he had the Ai m ee experience of the failure of all attempts at legislatinVpee other Associations; as he had seen the failure of Lord 1 ',guilt ley's Government ; as he had heard the assertion of the R a id shilling:o Hon. Gentleman that this was but one of a series of mo°4o intended to keep pace with the ingenuity of the Irish pecroil as he felt convinced that justice had never yet been donee., se never could be done to the Catholics until Emancipa tion de' conceded to them ; he, for one, should express in the mas t te e tided manner his disapprobation of the measures which Riet Hon. Gentleman has just stated to the House. r 0 Sir H. PARNELL. rose.—[ln consequence of the comn e - et tree ed by Members leaving their seats, and the low Tilt!: which the Hon. Baronet spoke, his speech was very ern old hotly heard in the Gallery.]—He said that the argumen t s Ce by the Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, that we t - 0 tholic Association was not identified with the great bode' ° oto Catholics, had been completely overthrown by the state ln doe of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland. 'the Right Kid Gentleman said that the Irish Nobility had been intitalunio by the Association. Had he read the letter of Lord Ke i n e a to in which the greatest confidence and praise was awa rd o 0 them. General charges of this sort ought to be bottorn e 'ete l some specific facts. No one could fairly estimate the charl l t ee and conduct of the Association who did not take into ee l& the previous sufferings and the present injuries of the Cathecre The objects of the Association were neither secret nor d i : eol ditable. They consisted in the petitioning of Parliame n ' ell redress—the better administration of justice by protectingdeel poor and oppressed—the establishment of an indepen eo ee Catholic press—and the circulating good and cheap uore among tire Catholic schools. Surely no one could clu e d with any of these objects. The Right Honourable Secr eta p stating his law cases had acted rather unfairly, inasmuch . 11 01 , had given but two out of a great number. The Honour 10 1 Baronet proceeded to describe at some length, and in toe tone of voice, the facts of the trials at limiskillen, New,e`it 0 and Cavan. He eulogised the temperate and able con°,"oo the Barristers sent down by the Catholic Association, an d f tll tended that the interference of the Association had been 0 e„ greatest service in securing a purer administration of just ic He denied that the Catholic Rent was not applied to till • b that were defined and known, as had been stated by the ag e Hon. Secretary. Every thing showed that the money wa s ete for public and well-known-objects. Its chief a pplicatiego I directed to the attainment of Catholic Emancipation. P i tl , was said that the Association excited alarm, and disturbed be order of society. Up to August and September, no alarTo been created ; and the Association was at that time sca re n il subject of general conversation. The alarm which subsetlt a y arose he attributed to the conduct of the London HibP" 0 School Society in sending over delegates to convert the t i tholics, and carry on a system of proselytism. It was L.. discussions which they excited, and not to the Catholic etr e iii tion that the alarm of the country was owing. If the Ce,r ue l' of Ireland were deprived of just rights, they were blitl' • 0 0 claim redress thrp ug h the medium of popular representa tl 4 and he contended that it was unfair to notice the ungir: el expressions of int em p erance when men were excited by t" " f t plause of their hearers. He denied that the Convention o tl could be taken fo r suc h a precedent as the Right Hon. Gt e ei man wished to ma k e it. 'rite Convention in 1793 was fus with a different object and under different circumstances. b eel Orangemen of that day were as violent against the La ss 'ti Convention as those of the present time were now agai o to Catholic Associations. Yet if their acts were looked n et would be found that in consequence of the representations of 0 delegates, Lo r d Westmoreland assembled the Parliarnen t Al reconeenended that the condition of kis Majesty's Catho i'' I