The Sun. — London, England, 1831-06-29 00:00:00

IGO ion. ,and 'here was iecute grace . If stifle y waa d and epee? ,ctavo man heets. gton's fidual els in fling= !wing resent Hear, and ment, that were twence Lttacis, )pence. formed nguage dyes to licitor mitten. le then r other answer em go 'lay of Gentle lovern- t new could luntry. Lions as s credit et die t truth. ioval of Press. Gentle lember cutions ler the td by House, )er to only a ecution prose- ,Ilicious ber for pc], and !n very :ely ob. ltlernen /hit his another lecution would : of the k mis xutions :rs, and of any Liour of ited to held in work itention for the it down 118 own y small !liberty , as any that there off the noel.) vas not aber in y thing cell for 'no had Press, a pre. on this then 'salon," ma not -0 upon -suaded evaded • Man'a prison, would ►ppear ald be 40taghout the 365 days of the year; and if Government attempted to attack the editors of suck publications in the Way that they had already begun, they would find they had undertaken a hopeless task. Let the Government remove the Six Acts, and then all those who were aggrieved by Publications would be at liberty to enter the field of defence and controversy. Mr. RICE TREVOR said, that in no one instance had he ever opposed the rational freedom of the public Press. tut he would ask the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and he Would appeal to the House, whether there was no difference between its freedom and its licentiousness. The Hon. Member for Middlesex had attributed to the ignorance of the lower classes all those crimes, and every other species of abomination which disgraced the country. But he Would ask, why did he make no allowance for those seditious and blasphemous publications which, it was a I ' 4 ll-known fact, were circulated throughout the kingdom? Sir F. BURDETT said that as this discussion had Proceeded so far, he could not avoid saying a few words Upon the subject with which it was principally connected. L. the first place, he begged to say that he entirely con curred in the prayers of both the petitions with regard to the laws which had been enacted against the Press, and he did not see any reason why his Hon. Friend, the Member for Middlesex, should have addressed such a long mono- Iklylogue to the House to show that Acts should be re- Pealed.—(A laugh.) He had simply to move the repeal of those Acts, and he (Sir F. Burdett) was sure he would succeed in carrying his motion. At all events he had not heard any person say that he was in favour of those Acts. 4, 3 far as he (Sir F. Burdett) wile concerned, he begged to say that he eutertained quite as strong opinions on this °object as his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex. He did not see any beneficial tendency in those Acts, but the very reverse; and he therefore hoped that a proposi tion would shortly be brought forward to repeal them, and to place the law and the constitution upon the footing on Which it stood before such innovations had been intro doced.—(Hear.) He did not think that much mischief could be occasioned by the publication to which reference had been made. Ide (Sir F. Burdett) had never heard of it before, and it really appeared to him that the poison Which was circulated in such a trashy publication was not calculated to affect the minds of any men except those of crceedingly great stupidity indeed. In fact, he took this Publication and things of the sort to be a weak and mi- Inatble invention of the enemy, for the purpose of bringing discredit upon the popular party and a popular administra tion.—( Hear.) Such sinister modes of warfare were krnetimes adopted, and he should not be surprised to find that this was one of them, for he did not suppose it pos sible that any man could suppose that any cause could be thanced by the absurd and ridiculons trash which those Publications contained. He did not think that there was afly danger to be apprehended front the circulation of such trash, for ifs only effect would be to excite the disgust of the community. The proper mode of meeting such things was to alter the law with regard to the Press, which, ka it at present stood, was in his opinion of a most evil ten dency. It bad been once a delightful object of contempla tion to him, (Sir Francis Burdett), to behold persons in t he class of life to which those petitioners belonged, ap t Plying the information which they possessed through the keens of cheap publications to the promotion of the wel rn-e of the community. Such publications had been fre fluently sent to him, and he read them with pride, plea lure, and satisfaction, and he was sorry that they had been put an end to by this law. There was nothing so simple, as lie had already said, than for the Hon. Member for Middlesex to move for the repeal of that law, and he Was satisfied that his Majesty's Ministers, who in their Present places had nut abandoned the opinions which they had expressed while on the other side of the House, would ast fail to support such a proposition. The matter ap- Peered to him to be one of great importance, and he ttusted it would be speedily brought forward in the course Of the present Session. The House was now engaged With the all-absorbing question of Reform, and until it Was disposed of, certainly nothing of importance should he introduced. But, as soon as that great question was settled, a motion for the repeal of those laws should be at once brought forward, and it should have his (Sir F. Bur dett's) cordial support. Mr. O'CONNELL would tell the Hon. Member for Dundalk, that prosecutions had never yet put down opinion. They might succeed in smothering it for a time, but it "(Mid soon break out, if not on the same spot, with l acreased strength elsewhere. Opinion should he met by counter-opinion ; statement by counter-statement ; argument by counter-argument ; thus the public good contemplated by the most honest prosecutions would, with- Out the slightest mixture of evil, be speedily attained. Mr. C. WYNN said the simple question was, whether every individual was to be at liberty to make public every tacitement to crime which he thought proper. It mattered sot how that excitement to crime was conveyed, whether in these words, which he had seen prominently in one of those papers only yesterday—" Down with Kings, Lords, and Priests, and particularly in England ;" or whe ther it were in the shape of advising the labourers Of the counties of Kent and Sussex to set fire to ricks. The question appeared to him to he quite the same. The one and the other were excitements to crime, for bidden by the laws of this realm, and forbidden by the laws of every country which had a constitutional existence. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that although the government was armed with such extraordinary power in such cases, yet since he had hel d the situation which lie , 'A the honour to fill, nothing had been done against any Publication but what any individual might legally have doue who thought that such a publication ought to be put down. Ile had filed no ex-officio informations, but had Proceeded so that the opinion of the Grand Jury should be taken in the first instance. It was on the very strong feel iog of the absolute necessity of having public opinion to go !long with him that he had acted. In answer to what had just been said, he would declare that most undoubtedly 110 Government could give up the right to proceed, when ' t hey thought it their duty to, proceed, against publications Which tended immediately to disturb the public peace, and to give the people an excitement to crime. Whether that i ncitement were in a written letter or in a publication ad dreseed to the passions of the multitude, in every case where i mmediate danger followed, he did apprehend that he was bound to the necessity of considering what was the best alod e of preventing the offence. But still this was a mat. ter of nice discretion, and one that required the greatest Caution in applying the remedy. One inevitable evil of 11l such prosecutions was the wider and legalized diffusion ff the mischief, which was originally confined to but a small dumber.--(Hear, hear.) The public could hardly desire k diffusion of those publications which justly met with their scorn, disgust, and horror, and which but for pro -lecutians might be confined to a few. Ile had felt it his duty to weigh the case in the balance of conveniencies and i oconveniencies, and he had come to the thorough con fiction that it was infinitely better to let such publica tions dwindle into insignificance from a avant of all en fouraeement, than to give them a wider publicity, and to force them into notice by means of prosecutions. He would dot shrink from the performance of his duty, but as a trial if this nature was to come on in a few days, lie was much tter e d in entering into the question before the House. If 41. y papers of an innocent description had been proceeded gainer under this Stamp Act, he should say that the pro "-eedings had been very improperly instituted, and he was not tWare of the fact. When, however, lie had found that a l'aper of a contrary nature went on from day to day, and that f law existed by which it could be suppressed, he had no hesitation iu availing himself of that Act. He objected to the passing of the law, but still, as the law was in his hands, ce felt himself justified in resorting to it in this case, and this without its restraining him or any person connected With him from uttering their free opinions if the subject of the Six Acts should be brought before the House. No person who looked to the interest of the public in prose ftitions for libels could disregard the speculation of the in dividual prosecuted that a general feeling was roused in favour of any case of supposed martyrdom. Anonymous l etters were constantly sent to him in order to provoke 4 irt, to give the authors and their cause the benefits of a government prosecution. These letters attacked the 'iehest character in the State, and all the establislnnents t nd institutions in the country—even the institution of ' Property itself. V He thought that these might be left with treat safety to the public sentiment, even to the lowest s ank or degree. If the whole public were disposed to r ush into palaces, and mansions, and dwellings, and de '!t'oy all the rights of property, he was sure that proseett ttons could not prevent them, but society even to the , 'West degree would prevent this on the principle of self 14terest, for even the poorest labourer who put his weekly 44 ges into his pocket, would feel himself arrayed against 111 elt persons. He felt that it w as throwing away the st rength of Government to prosecute publications against lehich the public could better protect themselves. Sir ROBERT PEEL was happy to hear from a gentle 71$n holding the situation of the Hon. and Learned Geu 'l4oaan a complete denial of what had be e n c h arge d to the N roverntnent. But he heard it slid that truth was to find i l ti Way by free discussion, and that sedition and blasphemy 1 1 ,ere to be left to effect their own cure. He admitted with Il e Hon. and Learned Gentleman that s evere l aws oug h t dot t o b e calle d i nto ac ti o n t oo li g h t l y , too frequently, nor 6 l thout the exercise of the greatest circumspection, and e thought there was great truth in the observation of the on. Member for Middlesex, that prosecutions of this kind ' f ten tended to make persons proceeded against to a certain "Ziee popular, He thought the Hon. and Learned Gen tkman hail acted wisely ;n enforcing those laws which he found on the Statute-book rather than proceeding against the parties for sedition and treason. It was painful to con nive at such publications a , those which had teemed from the Press, but it war said that persons were behind who were the real authors, as it was said that the windows broken by a riotous mob, were in fact broken by the enemies of the Reform Bill. The Hon. Member for Middlesex called himself the great advocate of Constitutional knowledge; but when the Hon. Member said there was no difference be tween the acts of the Polignac Ministry and the Six Acts, when in fact that was the sort of knowledge which made the wide distinction, he could not give the Honourable Member the high character he claimed for himself. In times like these the great advocates for knowledge should guard themselves against such excitement, as suck topics were likely to produce. The Honourable Baronet hoped his Majesty's Government, knowing that the efforts made to undermine the religious state and loyalty of the people, would act upon the experience they had had.—(Hear.) The petition was then read, and Mr. HUNT moved that it be printed, but there was some coughing, and cries of " Oh, oh." Mr. HUNT again rose for the purpose of moving that the petition be printed, when he was assailed by repeated cries of " oh, oh !—spoke, spoke'."—and much coughing. He said, that if he was out of order he would sit down ; but the young Members—(A laugh)—who endeavoured to cough him down ought to inquire of the Speaker whether he was really out of order or not. As to what the Right Hon. Baronet near him had said about his (Mr. El.'s) appealing to the law in a case of assault and robbery, lie should certainly have recourse to the law, but not to any statute ; he should prosecute under the common law of the land.—(Great laughter. ) TRADE WITH CHINA. Sir R. PEEL had a petition to present on a subject of much importance, and from a very respectable class of per sons, subjects of the King, residing in a foreign country, and therefore, as he conceived, entitled to peculiar indul gence. The petition was from the British merchants re siding at Canton, and the subject of their complaint was, that in their intercourse with the Chinese they were sub jected to the misrepresentations of the local authorities, and that as respected them the course of justice was ma terially interrupted. From long experience they we e enabled to state, that no consideration influenced the Go vernment of China so much as fear, and that a haught y and decisive tone adopted towards them was the best ca 1- culated to ensure success. The petitioners were perfectly ready to admit that the East India Company, and the officers in their employment, did all in their power to les en the inconveniences to which the petitioners were unhap pily subjected ; and they had further to add, that he officers of the East India Company gave every facility towards the forwarding and presenting of that petition.— To come then to the prayer of the petition--it was that Parliament would take means to have a resident appointed at the Court of China whoshould represent tie King, and guard the interests of British merchants residing in China. Upon this important subject he should, at the present mo ment, refrain from giving any opinion, rather desiring to postpone what he might have to say till the question came regularly before the House. There was one fact which, before he sat down, he thought it was necessary to state— it was that no Chinese left his own country, unless driven from it for some offence ; and therefore all who went abroad were looked upon in the light of outcasts who had forfeited the protection of their Government. It was per fectly natural, then, that they should suppose all the foreigners whom they found as residents in China, were outcasts who had forfeited the protection of their Govern ment, and who might be treated with contumely, and despoiled in any manner which their superiors, the Chinese, thought proper. The consequence of that error was, to the British residents at Canton, most ruinous. He con eluded by moving that the petition be referred to the Com mittee which he understood was to be re-appointed that night. Mr. FERGUSSON thought the petition well worthy the consideration of the House, and concurred in much of what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. Mr. C. GRANT ventured to express great regret that any discussion should be likely to arise on a mere point in the petition. lie fully concurred with his Right Hon. Friend, that the petition was entitled to the most attentive consideration of that House, for the petitioners were not only respectable, but were British subjects, promoting British prosperity in a remote quarter of the world, and exposed to very serious and distressing inconveniences. The petition, he felt satisfied, would be received as it de served ; and as a Member of the Government he would say, that the prayers of the petitioners would be met and acceded to, so far as was consistent with prudence and justice. He had no sort of doubt that the petitioners were exposed to great inconvenience, and he had also no doubt that some of the exactions to which they were sub jected might be checked. This had occupied the attention of Government for a series of years, and very considerable efforts had been made, and were continuing to be made, for the purpose of giving increased protection to that class of his Majesty's subjects. On the question of sending to China a representative of his Majesty, lie should refrain from pronouncing an opinion ; but he would undertake to say that the matter should meet with the attentive con sideration of the Government, and he trusted that the House, as well as the Government, would show how truly they appreciated the inconveniences to which that class of his Majesty's subjects was exposed. Sir GEORGE STAUNTON next addressed the House, but was not heard in the gallery. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH thought that there ought to be a determined assertion of the rights of our fellow subjects at Canton ; but anything beyond that he should be decidedly averse from. There should on no account be even a threat of an appeal to arms, for the matter could easily be arranged by much better means. Mr. WOOLRYCHE WHITMORE thought that great benefit would arise from the appointment of an Ainb issador to the Court of Pekin, and though there might be difficul ties at first, they were difficulties which would give way in time. He was sure that there did not exist i❑ any quarter a disposition to alter the commercial relations sub sisting between this country and China. Mr. ASTELL said, as the Hon. Gentleman opposite had abandoned his motion, he hoped that the subject would only be debated formally, and not incidentally. Mr. EWART said we ought to be determined to assert our right in a manner worthy of a great country, but not by going to war.J Mr. BARING said if an indiscriminate traffic were allowed to China, the consequence would be the maltreat ment of the merchants there ; unless the diplomatic power exercised by the East India Company at the Factory there was replaced by some Consul or official person from this country ; and even then he suspected that in a very short time we should be called on to vindicate our dignity. He could not, however, understand why something prac'ical was not done, instead of wasting the time of the House and the country in having committees and making reports, which when made would not be read by ten gentlemen in that House. Mr. WARBURTON would not say a word as to the propriety of our having a Consul at Canton ; but this he knew, that the Americans were carrying on a direct trade with China, with every advantage to themselves, and yet they had no Consul or Representative there. Mr. STUART WORTLEY complained of the Hon. Gentleman (311.. Baring) not having confined himself to the purport of the petition before the House. Sir C. FORMES said, that our trade with China met with great liberality on the part of that Government ; and he should like to ask those from whom this petition came, whether they would rather be treated there according to the laws of that Empire, or according to the laws of Great Britain ? There were edicts in force there, by which the natives of the Celestial Empire were prohibited from cheat ing the strangers who went thither to procure the neces saries of life ; and, with respect to smuggling, though there were numberless Custom-house boathtseplaaswsinng.asro,:nnd. and round the ships that lay at anchor at Canton, they neve r attempted to make any search, as tent with the confiscation of the vessel, in the event of the actual landing of opium, or any other prohibited article. When foreign vessels came into the port of London, if they did not choose to comply with the regulations which were in force, they would be told to go about their busines s._ (A laugh)—and be did not see why British vessels should complain of being used in the same way in the port of Can ton. The petition wTHEas thEen orASdTereINDIES.d to be printed. Mr. C. GRANT moved the re-appointment of a Coin. E m a it s t t ee ln t d o ies i . nqu T ir h e e R in i t g o the state of htnon.Gentletinradaneo,bt c. with the rved,thatit would be unnecessary for him to enlarge on the necessity that ther e was for the appointment of that Committee ; for he believed, that in making the proposal for its appoint ment he was acting in consonance with the general feel ing of the country. He therefore trusted that itsappoint tnent would not occupy touch of t he time ofthe House, a p s e , ti i t n io f n ac th t, at th h e ad de i b u a s t t e c i i ) l € ! en it had p rese a n k t e e a d dy by t , a t kiewnßight oHn on. n. Baronet—(llear.) Mr. W. WHIT3IORE complainedof before thet nn which the business had been conducted a thee manner last Committee. The consideration of the administration justice in India was a most important point;b u: he ela mented t Committee. to say, tha It was o that it hadbenly possible been almost to a totally rr arrive a tthe neglectedie knowledge of that administration by the testimony of those distinguished individuals who either had forinttly acted, or were now acting in a Judicial capacity in India : but when it was proposed that they should be examined, the proposition was met in the Committee by a technical ob jection ; it was said that the Company was not petitioning for a renewal of its charter, and that therefore it was not essential that it should afford that information. Mr. ASTELL defended the Committee, on the ground that it had been appointed to inquire into the trade with India ; and was not, therefore, called upon to investigate the administration of justice in that country. Mr. STUART WORTLEY expressed a desire that the number of the Members of the Committee should be smaller, for the last year there had been more of desultory conversation than of regular investigation. In his opinion, i , would be more advantageous to appoint two or three Cummittees for the different branches of this important subject. Mr. C. FERGUSON complained of the Hon. Gentle nun (Mr. W. Whitmore) having made an attack on the Committee without giving notice of his intention.—(H ear , hear.) He (Mr. Fergusson) would, however, say this— that so far from any obstruction having been given to a full investigation, the Committee had manifested the greatest desire to afford every facility; and that so far from the Hon. Gentleman having any right to complain, he had been the very person who had brought on desul tory conversations, and had thrown the proceedings of the Committee into confusion.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. W. WHITMORE explained. Mr. COURTENAY said, that it appeared to him un necessary to meet the statement made by the Hon. Gentle. man (Mr. Whitmore), for he understood that the Company would very shortly petition for the renewal of the charter; and then would be the time for introducing any objections to their mode of Government. Mr. C. GRANT did not think the Directors of the East India Company had thrown any obstacles in the way of inquiry. With respect to the number of the Com mittee, he could assure the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Wortley) that he had made every endeavour to reduce the number as low as possible, and the result was, the Committee would consist of thirty-sir Members, which was pretty nearly the number of the Committee which was first appointed on the motion of his Right Hon. Friend. Mr. HUAIE felt bound to support the statement made by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Astell), who hail clearly stated, that till the Company petitioned, the matter was in the hands of the Government; and he (Mr. Flume) would take the liberty, in furtherance of this idea, to suggest, that till that petition was presented, the Go vernment should prepare a form of business for the use of the Committee, by which means much desultory matter would be got rid of, and the Committee would proceed at once to the business which really ought to demand its at tention. Sir JOHN MALCOLM wished that the inquiries should be conducted so as to throw light on each other, and he entreated the House always to recollect that the Govern ment of India must be looked nn as a whole. Sir CHARLES FORBES hoped that the Committee would be assiduously attended. He had attended the for mer Committee every (lay it sat, but that was not the case with other Members, who sometimes took part in its cussions. It )(append that Members dropped in occasion ally, and put questions without being fully aware of what had been previously done. He remembered one question had been put about tle training of elephants—(A laugh) —that only excite , ' a smile. He hoped some other system would be adopted ; and he would recommend that the name of every Member who asked a question should be prefixed to that question. He hoped, too, that in the in quiries and discussions, the interest of the East India Com pany would he attended to, for the country, and he in par ticular, owed that Company a debt of gratitude. Sir J. MACDONALD recommended the Gallant Officer (Sir John Malcolm) to read the evidenee given before the Committee, as he could assure him, well ae quainted as he was with India, he would find it worth his attention. He believed that the discussion arose from the nature of the inquiries in the Committee, the two parties having fenced a good deal. There was on the one hand the free trade party, and on the other the East India Company ; and as the East India Company were not called upon, as they ought. to establish a case, they had not called any evidence. To avoid the desultory inquiries which had formerly been carried on, his Hon. Friend (the Member for Middlesex) recommended his Right Hon. Friend should chalk out the course of the Committee; but the suggestion of the Hon. Member (the East India Director) which he believed was acquiesced in by the other Directors, would prevent the necessity of acting on this recommendation. Sir J. MALCOLM had carefully read the evidence, but that had not altered his opinion. Sir G. ROBINSON thought the whole difficulty arose from the Members of the Committee going into the in quiry with their opinions previously formed, he might even say, having previously taken up very strong pre judices on the subject, which they have promulgated and published to the woild. He doubted if such persons were the best qualified to come to a sound conclusion. There was one class of Members decidedly friends to free trade to India and China ; and there was another class closely connected with the East India Company, and who fancied themselves bound to support that Company. Let any man read the evidence given before the Committee as to the China trade, and he might form any opinion. He had read that evidence, being previously acquainted with the subject, and he found it so contradictory, the inquiries and the evidence were all of such a nature, that with very little care they might be made to tell equally on either side. Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON said that the E tat India Company must be treated by the Committee like any other petitioner who came before it, and must make out its own case. The Committee was then appointed. BOARD OF CONTROUL AND SALARIES' COMMITTEE. Mr. STUART WORTLEY wished to put a question to the Noble Lord opposite. At the close of the last Ses sion a report was made by the Committee appointed to in quire into salaries, which recommended that the salary of the President of the Board of Controul Bhou.d be reduced from 5,0001. to 3,5001. The report assigned no reason whatever for this proposed reduction, but he conceived it was recommended from supposing that the President was not called upon to do the same quantity of active duty in that House as the other Members of the Government. He did not know whether or not that were the reason, but if it were, it was an error, for the President of that Board had a very laborious office. He wished to ask, therefore, whether the Government had any directions for fixing the amount of the salary at the sum recommended by the Committee? If that were the case, he was sure that it would conduce to lower the efficiency of the Board.— (Hear, hear.) It would cause the appointment to be given to inferior persons, and would degrade the office so as to be looked on as a mere step to a higher place. If his question was answered in the affirmative, he should at some future time bring the subject before the House. Lord ALTHORP replied, that it was impossible for him to say, as be was not a Member of the Committee, on what ground it had made the recommendation in question. He could, however, say, that it was the wish of the Govern ment to comply with that recommendation ; and he be lieved that in compliance with that recommendation in. structions had been issued. Mr. C. GRANT said, the Hon. Member who asked the question knew that the salaries were paid by sending a quarterly account to the India House of the money re quired. He had a few days before given direction to send such an account ; and i❑ that a deduction was made in pro portion to the recommendation of the Committee. Sir HENRY HARDINGE also wished to put to the Noble Lord a question as to a decision of that Committee relative to General Officers. He wished to know if the Government, from the evidence given before that Com mittee, had come to a decision that General Officers who held regiments should be deprived of the emoluments of those commands during the time they held civil offices. He had given his opinion on the subject to the Committee, and had stated that it would be most unjust to deprive such officers of their regiments; though no reference was made to his evidence in the report of the Committee. It was understood that Naval Officers were to be allowed to hold their half-pay with their salary as Lords of the Ad miralty. That was giving an advantage to one branch of the service which was denied to the other. He hoped that the Government would come to a decision favourable to the claims of the Army. He did not wish to say any thing of the different branches of the service, but he must say that the Army hid a stronger claim than the Navy, inasmuch as the Officers of the Army purchased their commissions. Moreover, the Officers of the Navy had opportunities of making much larger prize money tha❑ Officers of the Army. If there were any jealousy of a standing army in that House, he would remark that such an army was more likely to be harmless if the officers were connected with the civil service than if they were excluded from it. Lord ALTHORP, in reply to the Gallant Officer, was understood to say that the Government had as )et come to no decision on the subject, and that he could give no pledge as to what course it would adopt. Mr. HUME defended the recemmendations and conduct of the Committee. Mr. COURTENAY would not then enter into the subject; but would, at some future time, state hie stropg objections to reducing the salary of the Prefihlent of the Board of Controul. _ _ . Mr. ALLAN FERGUSON believed that the recom mendation to reduce the salary of the First Commissioner of the Board of Controul, was given from supposing that the office was not one of much labour. But this was a mistake. It was an office of great labour, and its duties required a man of much experience. Before a man could exactly perform those duties, a particular training was ne cessary. He wished also to say, that if the Generals and Admirals were allowed to retain their half-pay and their regiments, when they accepted civil situations, it would be a very great hardship on the subalterns to make them give up their half-pay when they took a civil office. He did not think even that such a rule was economical, as it pre ', eated these officers from accepting civil offices. Mr. JOHN WOOD, as a Member of the Committee, could say that the principle which guided its decision was, that the best possible talents should be obtained for the ser ,ice of the State, and that they should he adequately re munerated. The Committee had not decided on any case without having sufficient evidence before it. As to the of ce in question, that of President of the Board of Con t., oul, he must say that it was not considered as one of much labour. It was plain that persons could nut be trained to the office from the manner in which they were frequently changed. Let them look at the Secretaries who had nothing to do. They were even changed more fre quently and more whimsically than the President. If their duties were well performed it must be by a miracle. Ile believed that one reason why the reduction of the Pre sident's salary was recommended was, because that office had a great deal of patronage. He was glad to find that the Government had redeemed its pledge on this point, and he hoped that it would go on and reduce other salaries. Mr. GOULBURN only rose to protest against the prin. ciple of regarding patronage as part of the emoluments of office, to compensate for a deficient salary. He could not conceive any thing more dangerous than that of giving public men insufficient salaries, and leaving them to make up the deficiency by patronage.—(Hear.) Mr. C. W. WYNN also thought nothing could be more detrimental to the public interest than to consider patronage as a substitute for a salary. He considered the proper use of patronage one of the most sacred duties of a public officer. When lie was in office he had so employed his patronage. He had given places to officers' sons and to those who had a claim upon the public. He did not mention this as a merit in him, for he had only followed the example of his eminent predecessors. As for the lowering the salary, he believed that the consequence of that would be that the office would become lowered also, and would be regarded only as a stepping-stone to the higher offices. That ought to he avoided. Sir HENRY HARDINGE explained. Something had been said about the sweets of office influencing the judg ment of those who opposed the view taken by the Com mittee. He could say for himself that lie was poorer than when he took office ; and had only 3001. a year from the public, which was not more than the interest of the money he had paid for his cootmission. He believed, therefore, that the sweets of office could not have influenced his opi nion. He begged to bear his testimony to the very proper manner in which the Right Hun. Gentleman who had last spoke, had disposed of his patronage while in office. Mr. TRANT said nothing could be more injurious to the public service than to hold up to the Members of that House, ,eanindptuo fill blic their p men, a o s c havi ngkts.e nothing to do, and as only l Mr. HUNT had only one word to say. It was ob jected to the reduction of the salary, that it would make the President of the Board of Controul desire to obtain a higher place. To remedy that lie would recommend that the salaries of the other officers should be reduced to the same level of 3,500/. The question was then put that five of the Committee be a quorum, and the subject dropped. lIYDROPIIOBIA. Mr. Alderman WOOD rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent the spreading of canine madness. Neither the smiles of one party nor the frowns of another should prevent him from doing his duty. He had, at the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet then Secretary of State (Sir Robert Peel), moved for a Committee to in quire into the subject, and it was proved before that Com mittee that the disease was spreading. He did not know whether it was intendeil to offer any opposition to the mo tion, but if it was so, he should certainly take the sense of the House on the question, in order to see if they were more disposed to favour their animals than the human species.—Leave given. • SETTLEMENT BY HIRING. Mr. WEYLAND, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Laws of Settlement by Hiring, took occasion to advert to the melancholy situation of the labouring classes, both in this country and in Ireland, and to the necessity of making some provision to avert the dreadful consequences which must arise from its conti nuance. The object he had now i n vi e w— a p a rt of the principle of which he had endeavoured to impress on the House on former occasions—was to enlarge the means of communication between parishes by removing the obstruc tions which stood in the way of a free interchange of la bour in the agricultural and manufacturing districts. For this purpose he proposed to do away with part of the law of settlement, which gave a claim on a parish from the mere fact of hiring, and thereby to enable the poor of one parish to be beneficially employed by the master of another, where labour was in more demand. Mr. ADEANE seconded the motion of the Hon. Mem ber for leave to bring in this Bill. but certainly could not have consented to do so, had be supposed it to be a mere palliation for the evils of the Poor Laws. He was of opi nion that all measures which tended to palliate the mal administrations of these laws were most mischievous. Mr. SLANEY said it was lamentable to contemplate the state in which the labourers of sixteen of the southern counties of England were placed by the manner in which the Poor Laws were administered ; and if he had not, either i n thi s se ssion or the last, called attention to the h and rents lo w , an d t h e poor subj e ct, it was because he hoped that the Government were about to take the matter into their own hands. In the trait was he l'n'agaeSsitVillaetriCtll o ehig f comparative comfort, while in the south, the system of paying wages out of the Poor Rates had reduced both labourer and farmer to great diffi culty and distress. He was fully convinced th a t th e land owners of Northumberlan d, with their hi gh rate of wages compared p th ar e e i d r ü b i e t t i t i e t r hen system,ladl were in a flouri s hi ng con di t i on landlords of Sussex, where wages were reduced to the lowest pittance which would support life; and he hoped the time was not distant when the landlords of the south would be satisfied of that fact, and labour to assimilate their system to that of the north. With respect to th e Bill of the Hon. AI , mber, he would only observe, that by takinz away the settlement by hiring, an additional burthen and additional expence of litigation was thrown on th e other methods of obtaining a settlement—that of the derivative character, for instance; but that, as well as oth , r questions of greater nicety, were matter for future consideration. Of one thing he was certain, that the Go vernment and the House would be compelled to do some thing more for the poor than build cottages, and that the time was not distant when, if they did not bestir them selves, the state of the labouring classes would be forced on their consideration.—(Hear.) Mr. HUNT said th a t the evil was not in the law, ' Plc in th e violation of the law. The Poor Laws had been found to be admir abl y calculated to p romote the interests of both the rich and the poor, and he asked why the Ma gistrates and c ountry gentlemen did not endeavour to see t h em properly executed, instead of vainly labouring to T also defended the Poor Laws. T TENAY in the la s t s e ssi o n h a d as k e d th e a o '°Ee r ni d NU. i Eß f it was the intenti on o f hi s M a j esty ' s Go vernment to make an inquiry into the state of the labour tootooftthiele v in o t o ro r d L u a et w itm ? o T f he a general ahswer measure at that time was that no such measure was in contempla ing clac.'cfo'r wthitehaaltevri2 contempla tion. begged now to repeat the question. Lord ALTHORP answered, that the subject was one which had been taken into the deepest consideration of his Majesty's Government ; but that they had no measure in a state of fo!ward preparation, or in a state of preparation that would justify him in holding out it would be brought forward in the present session of Par liament. With respect to the motion now under consider p.Lion, he had no wish to throw any obstacle in the way cif the introduction of the Bill. On the contrary, ho thought that it w as very desirable to remove the obstruction in the our, the free circulation of of lab doing • vva,. p , by away with the obtaining o f settlement by hiring for service. He was apprehensive, however, that the alteration would much in crease litigations. It would undoubtedly, be advantage.. ous to restore the practice hi the south of England, with reference to the administration of the Poor Laws, to the exist i ng practice in the north of England. But the diffi culty in a ll these matters was, that any great alteration must neeessarily produce a severe pressure on the poorer cla'ses in the first instance; and these were not times in which e xperiments of that nature could be safely hazarded. Ile cer'444 did not see any Way in which the evils, which all must allow existed, could b e im • • mediately and at the same time safely remedied. Mr. SADLER maintained, that the chief intention of the Poor Laws was to relieve the poor man, who was over charged with children : an d he quoted the opinion of Dal ton to that effect. The merciful ' consiueration of the corn munity ht always to be extended to au individual in that situation. Who could be more entitled to admiration and relief than the man with a large family, who, after l ong struggling with difficulties, was at length compelled to fall recumbent on the charity of his country ? Locke, however some Hon. Gentlemen might smile at his name, was of a similar opinion. He deniei that the manner in which the Poor Laws were adtninist red in the South of England, had any peculiar effect in increasing the popula tion. On the contrary, it appeared by the last census, that there were more marriages contracted among the labouring population of the north of England, than among the la bouring population of the south of England. He was of opinion with Sir Frederick Morton Eden, that although there might be occasional exceptions, the general adminis tration of the Poor Laws in this country was liable to as few objections as the general administration of any other system of laws whatever. Mr. SLANEY disclaimed having ever said or thought that the poor man with a family ought not to be relieve•l. His object had always been not to depress the poor man, but to raise his wages and benefit him. Mr. SADLER had no intention of imputing to the Hon. Member any intentions inimical to the poor ; to whom, on the contrary, he was well aware that the Hon. Gentleman was a sincere, genuine, and indefatigable friend. Mr. STRICKLAND supported the proposed measure, which he considered one of sound sense. No great change could be accomplished in the Poor Laws without time and caution. In his opinion the Poor Laws ought to be in troduced into Ireland; but that must be done with great care. He was sorry to say, that the evils which existed on this subject in the south of England were creeping into the north. One of those evils was that of a settle ment being obtained by one year's service. Numerous devices were adopted to escape granting this settlement Some farmers hired their servants only for fifty weeks. The most injurious plan was to suspend hiring them for a month, which subjected the labourers to great want and distress. He thought that eventually there ought to be no settlement except by birth : but such an object must be aimed at with great deliberation and caution. Mr. PAGET stated, that in many parts of England the effect of the Poor Laws was an absolute confiscation of the lands. Could such a system go on ? The national frith was dwelt upon with reference to some subjects. No one was more disposed to msintain it than himself; but he hoped the principle would be extended to every descrip tier' of property. The time was approaching when in many parishes the landed proprietors would be unable to give the poor subsistence. The pressure was at present unequally distributed. If it were spread over the whole country, it would he comparatively light ; but at present, in many cases, it amounted to confiscation. Mr. JAMES observed, that one material feature of the case had been overlooked. The Poor Laws had been greatly altered by Mr. Sturges Bourne's Select Vestry Bill. Formerly Magistrates could give applicants for relief what aid they chose, but now it was the usage of Select Vestries to give as little as possible. After a few words from Mr. WEYLAND in reply, leave was granted to bring in the Bill. KING'S PRINTER. Mr. HUME recalled to the recollection of the House the Committee which last Session had been appointed to in quire into the Patent of the King's Printer. That Com mittee he wished to have re-appointed, with this addition to their instructions : that they should ascertain in what manner the drawback affected the price of the article pro duced. He moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the nature and extent of the Patents of the King's Printer in England, Scotland, and Ireland, to as certain whether they have been beneficial to the Govern ment or the country, what effect has been produced by the drawback, and whether the printing for both Houses of Parliament could be performed with more economy.—The Committee was appointed. RATING SMALL TENEMENTS. Mr. STANLEY moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the purpose of better rating small tenements. STEA:Ii-ENGINES. Mr. RUTHVEN moved for a return of all steam engines made use of in Great Britain and Ireland, or in vessels belonging to their respective ports and harbours, setting forth their numbers in the following different classes, viz.—those under 20-horse power, those from 20 to 40-horse power, those from 40 to 60-horse power, those from 60 to 100-horse power, and specifying the respective shires, counties, or other denominations in which they have been employed.—After the motion was seconded, Lord ALTIIORP thought it impossible that such a return as this could be procured, and on that ground alone he should oppose the motion, though undoubtedly it would be advisable to obtain the information if it were possible. Mr. HUNIE said no obstacle should be thrown in the way of steam-engines, at a moment when we were engaged in a disadvantageous competition witla the rest of the world. Besides this, it would be impossible to get the information ; Government had no power to compel such a return ; they could not have a right to enter his house and ask him whether he had a machine of twenty or thirty-horse power.—(Loud laughter). The motion was withdrawn. Mr. RUTHVEN moved for a return of all sums of money bequeathed for the benefit of the poor in Ireland, of which the several municipal Corporations in that country have been constituted trustees or guardians, stating the re spective sums, by whom and when bequeathed, with the different periods at which they have been received, as well as bow they have been appropriated, or in whose hands they now remain.—Agreed to. SUPPLY. On the motion for bringing up the Report of the Com mittee of Supply, Mr. COURTENAY asked why Ministers had made no statement with respect to the arrangement of the Civil List and provision for the Queen ? Lord ALTHORP said that the subject should be brought forward at the earliest opportunity; but the reason why it had not been mentioned in the King's Speech was, that it was his Majesty's wish that in so important a Session as this, nothing personal to himself should be then introduced. The Report of the Committee of Supply ou the Navy Estimates was then brought up, and the several Resolutions were agreed to. MR. MARSDEN. On the vote for superannuations and retired allowances being read, Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose, and said he had to an nounce to the House an act of splendid liberality on the part of an individual, Mr. Marsden, late Secretary to the Admiralty. No words of his (Sir James Graham's) could express the feelings which dictated this act of generosity so adequately as the letter of the individual himself, addressed to his Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which he should beg permission to lead : Watford, n. . " My dear Lord,—,h been called ALlenham into office un Ja der 3o the auspices of your noble and excellent father, it is with a peculiar satisfaction that I now address his son, as Chancellor of his Ma_ jesty's Exchequer, on the subject of the remuneration that rn„. services were thought to merit, u p on my ret i r i ng from the post of First Secretary GI . the Admiralty. " During the chief period of a naval war, on the m o 7:t extensice scale, the most arduo us , an d atten d e d with the reost brilliant re. sults of any recorded in the annals of the cotintry (virtually ter minating with the destructi o n o f th e combined fleets of France and Spam, in October, 1805,) I laboured with the 'utmost assiduity and zeal in the performance of the duties •;,f Second and First Secretary, under seven different naval administrations; when, feeling my constitution to be inater ; aily injured by the close and unremitting confinement wh':Z:n those duties demanded, was under the necessity (at Yi(a summer, 1807) of applying for leave to retire; on which occasion a pension of 1,5001. per annum was granted to me under the King's order in council. This pension, together with the blessing of restored health, I have enjoyed for many years; and now, finding that the means I possess are adequate to furnishing me with all the comforts that belong to my period of life, 1 am sensible of the propriety of ceasing to trespass on the national liberality, and therefore trouble your Lordship with the intimation, that after the payment at Midsummer next, it is n o t my i ntention to apply, in - the cus tomary manner, at the Nary-officer for its continuance. " NVith the strongest impression of gratitude for the bounty I have hitherto experienced from the public, " I have the honour to remain, my dear Lord, " Your Lordship's most faithful and obedient servant, "The Viscount Althorp, " WILLIAM MARSDEN." (Loud cries of Hear,") Any words of his would fall short of the expression of this letter, which he felt it his duty to bring to the knowledge of the House.—(Hee; .) The reed to. f The I7ER gave r c es u ol A u N tio c n E s T o LLLE t o he ßG C A o oil m fi nte A e E\ w v.x q c e .li th r e Q n_ notice, that on Thurf,C t ay he would move for leave to bring in a p.m to amend the Game Laws.—(Hear.) T;I:Le adjournedo s th e r orders of the a Quarterthedaywerteo Onethen disposedoelock. of, and the ADVERTISEMENT.—The weekly sale of The Dispatch is now more than 30,000, a number far exceeding that of any other Journal in England. The circulation of The Dispatch during the last twelve months, amounted to nearly a million and a half, as ap pears by the following affidavit : RICIUAxD Woon, act ing publisher of the 'Mehl!, Dispatch Sunday Newspaper, maketh oath that the number printed of that Journal from the 26th of June, 1830, to the 26th of June, 1831, was One Million Four Hundred and Fifty-two Thousand Seven Hundred and Eighteen, and that the last week's sale was above 30,000. " Sworn at the Alansion-hou se of the City of London, this 28th day of June, 1831, before me, " J. KEY, Mayor." PENITENT BLACK EYES.—A Spanish writer, speaking of a lady's black eyes, says, they were in mourning for the murders they had committed.-Ifir min9liani Journal, MR. BARING WALE, M e . Bsring Wall, having made a speech against the Reform Bill in the last Parliament, got very much ap plauded in the House of Commons, and very much beaten at Guildford. To vindicate his spredi, he wrote a stit o u u e t. nts liked the one as littl e as th e To repair his misfortunes in Surrey, Mr. Baring Wall (nlier : pamphlet,t they byu turnedt il him travels westward ; and, as a vacancy will be made in the representation of Illelcombe -Regis, alias Weymouth, he is no longer an anti-reforming anti-ministerial candidate, but, sailing on the other tack, assures his friends arid the public in Dorsetshire, that he always has been, and is, and will be evermore, an advocate of " such a Reform as may be granted consistently with the acknowledged principles of the Constitution, by which the prerogatives of the Crown, the authority of both houses of Parliament, and the rights and liberties of the people may be secured." By thus copying the words of the King's speech, Mr. Raring Wall must either mean that he is a a supporter of the ministerial measure of Reform, or lie is waggish enough to wish to play off his Majesty's definition of Reform against his Majesty's scheme of Reform. Now this is very clever, or, what some folks think as good, is very cunning; but it is not new. The merit of the device belongs to Sir Edward Knatclibull, who tried it on the Kent freeholders with a success commensurate with its real value; that is to say, both Kentish men and men of Kent laughed at his learning, and the Baronet never came to the poll. 'The fate of Mr. Barin g Wall will not be quite the same. He will come to the poll. 'The boroughnionger ing party—the Johnstone estate voters—will support him, and if he could but take in a reforming voter or two by the above-mentioned masterly though not novel contri vance, he might have some chance of success. It is to be hoped, however, that those who sent Mr. Weyland to Parliament because he is a known supporter of the great Bill, will not be so exceedingly gullible as to supply his place by returning Mr. Baring Wall, one of the bitterest and most virulent of all the opposers, not only of the Bill itself, ' but of the King's Ministers generally. Had Mr. Baring Wall assured the Weymouth electors that all his Parlia ! tnentary efforts would be directed to defeat the Bill and to turn out the Ministers, he would perhaps have somewhat diminished his hopes of obtaining his wishes, but he would have spoken the truth, and there is more satiefav tion in that course than in obtaining any object by " finess ing and trick." STATE OF TRADE. Some curious facts relative to the state of trade in ge neral may be collected from the printed statements of the produce brokers, which are usually in circulation at this period of the year. In the article of coffee the most remarkable feature is the great increase of its consumption in the United States of America, where, owing to the reduction of the duty, it is estimated to have advanced from a consumption r d i 12,500 tons to 20,000 tons within the year, which is sup posed to be nearly double the consumption of Great Bri tain. A considerable quantity of coffee has in cons(,quence been exported to the United States from this country. The exports of this article to the Cont'nent ar t stated to have fallen off materially, compared with wlia,t they were in the first half-year of 1830, owing probably to the great political excitement which has prevailed, And which, by disturbing credit, has prevented the accumulation of large stocks of this and some other• articles. On the subject of cotton it is stated that the impor tation into Great Britain, for the first five months of 1831, compared with the same period of last yeitr, has decreased, the quantity being 4-03,000 bales in 1830, and 368,000 in 1831. The consumption of the article would not appear, however, to have diminished, as the deliveries for home consumption since the Ist of January have been at the rate of 18,200 bags weekly, while the average weekly consumption during 1830 was 16,000 bags. There has been some partial cessation of the de mand for export yarns to the north of Europe, but that of raw Cotton for export, notwithstanding the disturbedi state of the Continent, is said to be decidedly an the in, crease. In Indigo, so far as regards its production in the East Indies, the crops are supposed to be somewhat less than those of the year preceding ; but the stock in hand ap_ pears, nevertheless to be gaining on the consumption,. The purchase cf the article in this country seems likely to fall off, as foreign merchants, but particularly the French, are resorting to the countries where it is pro duced for their supply, and they of course ship it direct for their own ports. The French have purchased in the Calcutta market this season about 7,000 chests of Indigo, part of which hav e a l rea dy arr i ve d at Havre and Bo , deaux. The low price which Indigo has borne for sr,me time past will check, it is thought, to a certain eY,teut, its production, and some of the large factories an th e lEast are said to be on the point of being 'Abandoned. Sugar is believed likely to yield a deficient, crop in the present year, from the West Indies, Demerara, Trini dad, Mauritius, India, and Cuba; but the increase of pro duction of this important article is so great in Brazil, as to promise, in some degree, to supply the deficiency in oth. r parts of the world. The cons4wiption of sugar in Great Britain appears to be somewhat on the decline. From the Ist of January to the Slat of May, 1830, tha quantity on which duty was paid amounted to 84,615 tons ; and for the same period of 18,11 to 89,590. It its thought probable, however, that t'ne dealers have smaller stocks on hand. The trade in sugar is said to be is a de pressed state ; and, as c,ne mode of relief, applicativa has been made to the Government to allow the use of rfrolasses in the breweries ; but no decision has yet bee'd given. The circulars of the brokers, it should be remarked, are to be received with some a ll owance, as they endeavt,nr, in a certain degr ee , t o a d a pt th emse l ves to the views, of their fromt "rtA as o uf ell. those as o f houses tlie m customers, especially wh en th ey h ave any 10- 4 e specula tions on hand ; b u t we h ave se l ecte d those, facts which are leastot general interest, : liahletoasuspi cion of that he reports and whose character should place ene,n above wilful misrepre sentation. DUTCH PAPERS, FRONTIERS 05' POLAND, JUNE 18.—The death bf Field-Marshal Diebitsch has mad-;, as appears from several accounts, a deep impression even on the Poles. Th e y con filed i n humanity moral feeling, and wh a t ever some have said to d e tr ac t f rom o f Warsaw and m y him, the better part of the Polish nation, and especially the army, highly esteemed and admired his unvarying considerate hc.„-Aanity, during a war which mi g ht eas il y have incite,!., h less human e commander to cruel acts of ven— geance, ilis death is, therefore, considered in Poland it self as an unfortunate event. BERLIN, JUNE 19.—Accounts from Poland say that the cholera is again spreading in Lomze, and a country seat in the neighbourhood has been taken for an hospital. Th e disorder has now also appeared at Degbin, in the province of Plock ; where, up to the 4th, ninety persons had died of it. It is also at Kolo, on the high road from Warsaw to Siuyze. In Warsaw itself there were only twenty-six new cases from the 7th to the 12th, and only nineteen patients remaining in the city hospital at La Bagatelle. ST. PETERSBURGII, JUNE 1 1 ..-.ln consequence oP, th e appearance of the cholera at Riga, all necessar-, precall. tions have b e en t a k en t o p revent the spreading of the disorder, avoiding as m uc h as poss ibl e te ;throw obstacles in the way of co mmerce . A s t h e greater part of the public are convinced that the cho' . , ta is not the means of goo d s , an d th: at i t propagated by happily attacks only a part of the inhabitants '.,r a place, and requires peculiar treatment, the measr . ,, ces adopted will doubtless a tt a i n t h e end of the Gove7.no,ent, which is to prevent alarm. Prince R:.(21 Scherbatow, Privy Councillor, Chamber lain, 8 .5., who passed the greater part of his life in the D'foiic service, died on the 2d inst. at the age of 70. Bors-LE-Dtic, JUNE 21.—Letters from the Prussian frontiers, of the 19th, say, that since the 14th several families, who had fled from Antwerp, had arrived at Aix la-Chapelle. At Liege outward tranquillity again prevailed. How ever, as many French tri-coloured flags had been made there as there are steeples and public edifices. In the province of Limburg the formation of the Burgher Guard does not succeed. By order of the Go vernor residing at Hasselt, M. Van Pelzer, Burgomaster of Vels, summoned the men to choose officers and subal terns. He waited till the evening, but could get together only eight persona of the lowest class. At Maestricht every thing remained on the same foot ing as before; the Prussian troops cantoned in these parts were constantly in readiness to march. fl Atter viewing the Armoury, and other euri usities in the Tower, which, during the progress, is not done for nothing, the visiter, at the close of his round, is saluted with an inscription, stating It is expected that visiters will compliment the Warden." This a French gentleman recently construing literally, he began to Mail his liveried Cicerone with such a cloud of eulogy us astonished the bystanders, and it was not for rows time that the worthy Beef-eaterlwas able to convince the Foreigner that the true definition of the word a voaplinicnt,' as praise." there placed, had reference to " sqlick pucktisag," not " empty