The Sun. — London, England, 1834-05-27 00:00:00

r c ,t a 6 Le ry at ep C r e§ ea , e ra lisp 1 14 bill would not be found so inconvenient, bu " 1 . agricultural parishes it wouli 'be diflicnlt t • get a sufficient nitinber of ree"ectable and intelligent men to carry its provisions ink. effect. The great principle of affording relief, and of empowering magistrates to tax- parishes for the support of the t„ ,r Would be fearfully infringed on by the present A ut• Was that just ? Was it right policy ? A short time ago, the house declared that they would Preserve unalienable and sacred the claims of certain Pensioners whose rights were rather questionable, 4 ad, he would ask, were the claims of the poor, Which had been established and confirmed by so fly statutes, less important or valuable ? He did !lot suppose that the noble lord was aware of the great 1 , 12 ) 11 ry which this bill would inflict upon the poor. He did not want to throw any opposition in the way of the btil— a.ll he asked was that some provison would be. (rtoduced to preserve inviolate the right of the Poor t o relief in cases of urgent distress. He should therefore move— (` That it be an instruction to the committee to preserve reli eve d entirely the inalienable right wich every man has to be when in a state of dehstitution by the parish in which he is legally settled, and that every man is entitled to recei ve i mmediate relief, when i n the extremity of dis t""-% from the parish which he is in at the time, whether he 4 e settled i n t h at par i s h or n ot." Abov e all things it was important that the poor should "ow their rights would not be neglected—for on the confidence of the poor that they would be relieved in their necessities, the security of property mainly de- Pended. If this were not done, he did not like to 141 olge in prophecy - , but it would not b ever y presump tuous to foretell that it would either urge them to acts violence and insurrection, or bring about such a ' fa te of things as prevails in Ireland—large bands of ` t iroly unemployed labourers wandering about the Cou ntry destroying the security of property, driving 5 13 ital out of the country, and putting an end to the Peace, happiness, and prosperity of the kingdom. The SPEAKER suggested to the hon. gentleman t hat his proposition s s h ou ld b e ma d e i n th e comm itt ee , rd not by way of instruction. Instructions to the = • nuttee were only usual when the committee had 11 : t sufficient power to carry the propositions, which r e re the subj ec t o f th e mo ti on , i n t o effect without in : r uction. Unless, therefore, he meant to cast doubt nd SUspi e ion on the committee, it would be more re "• Ar to introduce a clause as he suggested. ( Hear.) After a few words from Mr. ROBINSON, who 811 ,1)Gorted Mr. P. Scrope's views, the amendment was On the question being again put, Sir E. WILMOT said, he would take that oppor t4aity of saying a few words by way of suggestion to the noble lord. By a report of a committee on which 'filbert's Act (as we understood, the 22d Geo. III.), Y 4 -5, founded, almost all the recommendations contained In th e present report were made, except that of the c entral Board. This bill, with that exception, and that it Was voluntary and not compulsory, seemed an. ost a c oun t erpar t of that bill. The noble lord, 1 ,, 11 a nswer to a question, had said, that he intended to propose no measure for the immediate relief of the grieultural interest, but that he anticipated much re ef from the operation of this bill. Now it must be a con erable time before thi s new s y s t em was carr i e d i n t o e4. eet, and the pressu re on the agricultural interest was t? l 'a urgent to admit of delay. One great objection to e present bill,was, that the pe rsons w h o contr ib ute d to wards: the fund for the relief of the poor had no con trol over the expenditure of that fund. It was also ;aid thattie great burden on the agriculturists arose they local taxation. If, therefore, by any measure t : t eY could succeed in reducing local taxation, or en get rid of it, they would make this bill more ;14eient. He would suggest to the noble lord, there fore, that as the government had taken the manage mentd of the poor into their own hands, they could not 4 , 0 better than undertake the maintenance of the poor ti ' l Bo , and the local taxation would entirely cease. He ea ght that all poor rates . should be entirely abo td,!h an d that government should take the whole „ ti;Yrnent of the poor into their hands, to be pr id out of eneral taxation of the country. The pressure eii.v(l4, t i then be more equally divided and the country -41 eved from a great burthen. ( Hear, hear.) th i N . lr• C B BETT always thought it would come to n. th -• t he hon. baronet had to go but one step fur her, and after charging government with the mainte hrA n c i e of the poor, charge it with the keep of us all. Laugh.) The hon. baronet had not thought long "'ugh on the subject to see how the farmer was !f,fected by th e poor ra t es . Would the poor rates be der some b y t h e propose d bill ? O n the contrary, deßorne time, at l eas t, th e y would be increased by the it° e ssity of building Poor houses. He was surprised hear that an h on. mem b er h a d spo k en o f t h e a ll ow -. a ntes to those who were in distress as charity, as alms. e (Mr. Cobb e tt) th oug ht ever y one k new th a t i n tie country it the right of a poor man, when he to be relieved. That right was lyt t dedon the p r i nc i p l es o f c i v il soc i e ty. It was a ablished by law. Could it be said they had a 4 yht to ea u upon the labouring man to serve in the li titt, and to endanger life and limb for -e protection of the State, but that, if a labouring 1, fell into poverty, he had no right to demand relief ' e tti the State ? The history of the present bill was , c4 rious. A noble and learned lord had pledged him ;tlf, two or three years ago, to bring in a bill for the A endment of the Poor Laws. After the lapse of a a t ai °n, however, that noble and learned lord obtained e appointment of a comm i ss i on t o i nqu i re into the i ll ject. W ere t h e pr i nc i p l es w hi c h t h at no bl e an d : } 4 i r aed lord asserted on the subject of the Poor Laws klt:,, rl ,he was a member of the House of Commons th e „ e u ? If not, would he say that the people, after th e i , v „sing of this bill, were entitied to no relief which for did did not afford ? Would the noble and learned r ?Peat his own expression—‘. At Nature's board ?g. no seat for you ?" By the bye, it was rather e r ndent to talk of Nature upon such a subject. If tC.Poorer classes referred to Nature, they would use tiir natural power—they would not ask relief from Parish officer ; they would go and take it wherever th e y could find it. ( A laugh.) Why even that was ,2 law of nature. If a man were in want of food and „Ntrient, and in a ease of dire necessity could obtain , e i• ra tans in no other manner, he had a ri g ht t o ta k e t h e e ; t4l s of sustaining and cloathing himself wher ever h e g„ 441 find them. Civilians stated that to be the cas e , ladded that in England no such right existed, be toho Parish officers were always at ham' to afford relief the refor to whom it was necessary. It was clear , tl l ,: etc n . , that if parish officers were not at hand, the to tc, whom relief was necessary might take it ih Sely es. ( A laugh.) He had alluded to serv litt'll the militia. If there were now no relief for a N e ring man in poverty, then, if under any circum ke, e es a lab our i ng man were requ i re d to t a k e a mus ket' ~ a nd either d e f en d t h e s t a t e f rom i nvas i on o r put 1 14 ,7 a a riot, he might answer, " for what ? You hav e Et country ; I I own nothing ; I have no house ; I 41 :e no land : have nothing ; I have no country ; I th at be starved to death.', He was sure, therefore, hon gentlemen would not place the labouring I, ,'dsse 3 in . that situation ; the ,em, they might speak to them might be irritated with in anger, but they ,"ould never call upon men to defend them whom they ere not prepared to relieve if in distress. No, they h•rild not do that. It was a great objectionatlol thethe g t o l that it took from all the nobility and 11 - „, 44 Y all their natural influence over the labouring fro -St S• Three unknown men—it might be 41- Scotland, or it might be from Hanover tZitwere to be c l appe d up in London, and all th e to el l influence of the nobility and gentry w as be d t ransfererd to them. And how unlimited was to he their power. All relief at his own dwelling was to to denied to t h e labouring man, who w as to be taken li e th e workh ouse if h e wante d it. He never could )e , - r ee v e that the house would pass such a bill. would He nese uld believe that the House of Lords pass I.l cli a bill. a r ° rid ALTi4 h ad ORP denied the position that the poor right to seize u p on th e property of others to zyty their wants. All the rights the poor now z ie ssed were preserved to th em by the present bill, in-';`.the objections to the bill on that ground were un t'tded. The bill did no t, as had been erroneously __, sh t ..,--enteo, go to the extent of say i ng t h at no re li e f th -mt d be given out of the workhouse. Th e o bj ect o f tutlibill Was to bring the law back to what it was origi it and what it ought to be, upon this subject ; but 111 ut t no means t wish of is Mjesty • 14, r have the poor he laws done h away awith.'s Govern.. aeblp., ATTWO OD did not at all concur with the lord that the poor laws were an evil, as the noble the h'„ described them. He perfectly agreed with a nd n ' for Oldham that the laws of nature f l ikri t aws of England were identical, and that every tih ne ,, - -tt a right t o li ve by th e f ru its of his honest i 4 Ppi d * (Hear, hear, and laughter.) * The man who Was ttm h imself to honest labour, and by that means fight e and willing to earn his bread, had a better 1 1 1 0 8 he - Z an ° PPort than - the noble lord bad to the hat on t-th e r the coat on his back. (Laughter.) It was Give Pressure of the poor laws that was so was the noble lord's- cursed currency bill (A laugh) which was nothing leSs than a barefaced fraud upon the country. The interest of the national debt was more than six times a greater burden en the co!mt:-y than the poor laws. For his part : . of hoard out of that house a single complaint tee poor laws in his life. ( A laugh, and cries " Oh, oh.") Ile would repeat that he never had. In his own pad al. - mingham, although he never interfered in p,,rish matters, he knew that they came last year to a resolu tion to do away with the.workhouse altogether, as a more expensive mode of providing for the support of the poor than paying them out of doors. It was found that half-a-crown given to afford out-of-door relief went further than 4s. would go in the workhouse. The whole of the noble lord's present bill he looked upon as founded in error, and the details were so monstrous that he was convinced the whole power of that house would never he able to carry it into effect. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought 'there ought to be some medium power established between the cen tral board and the lower classes of the people. The house then went into committee on the bill. The 13th clause having been read, which provides that the power of affording relief to the poor shall be placed in the hands of the commissioners, Colonel TO RR EN S rose to bring forward an amendment to that clause of which he had given no tice. He considered that the principle on which his Majesty's government and that house would be disposed to legislate on the subject at present under discussion was, that the local authorities of the country should have their powers as little infringed upon as possible. The noble lord had admitted this, and had declared that he was not disposed to give one iota more of power to the commissioners than was absolutely ne cessary- to carry on the useful operations of the bill. He should show that the commissioners ought not to have the power to frame rules and regulations without the consent of the parochial authorities, or of the ratepayers of the parish ; and he was sure that the amendment he was about to propose would tend to increase rather than to diminish the efficacy of the Central Board. There was nothing in the bill to carry the executive part of it into effect, and this his amendment would go to remedy in the most satisfac tory manner. If the commissioners, instead of being nine in number, were multiplied to nine times nine, it would be impossible for them to carry on the opera tions of the bill in all the parishes of the kingdom without the aid of the local authorities ; and the only way in which the cordial assistance of the local autho rities could be hoped for would be to give them the power of co-operating with the commissioners in making rules and regulations for the government of their respective parishes. They would then be more ready to give effect to the provisions of the bill than if they were forced to agree to the arbitrary regulations of the commissioners alone. In all those parishes where the affairs were already well managed and good regulations estal dished the commissioners would not be disposed to act at all, or to extend their interference ; but in those parishes where bad management was no torious, and where the rates had been increased, even on the rack-rent, it must be admitted by all that some interference was absolutely necessary, for otherwise the whole property of those parishes would be swallowed up by the poor rates at no very distant time. The best way he thought of correcting the evil of such mismanagement would be to have all orders and regulations brought into operation with the concurrence of the local authori ties and the voluntary act of the ratepayers themselves. Thus only, in his judgment, could the law under the bill be wisely and justly administered. The amend ment would further provide that in all the badly-re gulated parishes, if the local authorities refused for twelve months to aid the commissioners in framing new orders and rules, and thus obstructed the working of the bill, it would be in the power of the commis sioners to apply to Parliament, on the petition of the majority of the rate-payers of each parish, for a spe cific act to enforce the provisions of the bill. So that in the end the result sought for would be the same ; but this proceeding would have the satisfactory effect of reconciling the minds of the people to the changes made in the law. He also intended that the peti tioners should be heard by counsel, if they thought fit, on any application to Parliament for an enforcing act, so that no rules or regulations should be forced upon them without a full hearing being given to their objections against them. It might be urged as an objection to part of his amendment that it went to the possible enactment of 16,000 acts of parliament for all the parishes of England. This was, however, an er roneous view of the case, for 8,000 parishes, half of the list, must be struck out, and of the other half he did not think that many would be found to resist pertina ciously the forming proper regulations for the manage ment of their affairs ; so that, in fact, very few acts would, be found to be necessary ; and, moreover, if this were found to be an inconvenience, it would be very easy to lump several parishes into one act. But, even supposing that some inconvenience were to arise, what would that be as compared with the great advantage of popularizing the bill, and framing it so as to work with the aid and concurrence of the people for whom it was intended ? A good system of local government he looked upon to be the perfection of all government, for if the various branches of the body politic were not kept in a wholesome and well-regulated state it would not be possible to preserve for any length of time the vital principle unimpaired in the body politic itself. As he was desirous, therefore, to interfere as little as possible with the influence which the local authorities of the country ought to possess, he should propose as an amendment— " That no rules or regulations framed by the commis sioners should be binding on any parish without the con currence of the majority of the ratepayers or of the landed property of the parish, but that, where any parish resisted the regulations of the Commissioners for twelvemonths, the Commissioners might to apply to Parliament for an act to enforce the regulations, the parishioners having a right to be heard by counsel against such act if they pleased." Sir S. W HAL LE Y said that he, for one, would not give to any set of commissioners appointed by the crown the power to make laws for any purpose upon earth. He considered the present amendment to Le one of great importance, and deserving of the best consideration. Mr. STRICKLAND said that he considered the objections which the amendment went to establish were not at all applicable, as the purpose of the bill was to appoint commissioners and frame laws for the relief of the poor. After a few words from Mr. B. CARTER, which were inaudible, Lord SANDON said that it would seem as if all powers were to be vested in the commissioners for the regulation of the Poor Laws for the future. He would suggest the propriety of striking out the clause altogether, to prevent this construction being put upon it, for it would by no means tend to render the act popular to have the whole power which it conferred given to one particular set of men. By striking out this clause the other clauses of the bill would leave specific and defined powers only in the hands of the commissioners. He thought it most unjust that all power should be made to pass by this measure from the hands of those local authorities which had hitherto held it to others who had no identity with the inter ests of the parishes which they would be placed over to govern. Mr. CARTWRIGHT thought it would be better if the noble lord would consent to delay this measure, than thus suddenly to take away all powers from the hands of the parish officers. It would be attended with the greatest inconvenience throughout the coun try,.e would i b f a e measure like that were to be brought at once t operati on i n a ll th e p ar i s h e s in th e ki ng d om . Thi s particularly felt at the approaching harvest, when probably there would be so much occasion to pay particular attention to the state of the labouring classes, and that could only be best done by the local few word s aut A h f o t r e ie. r ti a s quite inaudible in th e fromgallery,Mr. HODGES, which were Lord ALTHORP Hodges)said the bill wou l d oeuil)derbiod proposed by his e t b o e o t o o distant shor ; t H per-eh h o ap n s . friend that p r ( o l‘ p l e r s . e din would take the point into consideration. He thoughtprinciple, it important in th e o ut set to lay down . the he that the administr ation of t he law was to be in the Central Board. It would be regulated by succeeding clauses. Mr. HODGES said it would give rise to much inconvenience if the act was to come into operation before the close of the parochial year. Mr. PE ASE expressed himself favourable to the suggestion of the member for Kent (Mr. Hodges.) After a few words from Lord SANDON, who repeated his amendment to leave out all the words in the clause after the words " from and after the passing of this Act," Mr. HITIVIE said it would be better to trust to the discretion of the commissioners. (Cries of " Oh, oh-") He saw no reason why the commissioners should not 1- e7,in to act immediately. There was no ground for thinking that they wouldviolate any existing contracts. Mr. GODSON said it was the more important this clause should be understood as there aPpeared a differ ence of opTnicn in•the ilterpretation tt. If the cam,- mission ,- sr,3 should happen to the extent of rower co :Served on tlmn there we ~o remedy, for tii:s bill gt.ve.'n9 appeal to the j::,dges.,..,Lid, tile words (I f . ' the clause mean - that the cOMmisf.zioners Wel'e'to admi nister the laws as they now good, 'or to administer orders, rules, and regulations, to be made hereafter ? An HON. MEMBER said this clause Merely asserted a principle, and gave no power to administer the laws. Mr. P. SCROPE - said the clause as it stood would in his opinion - do away the-right, which the pauper now had to appeal to the magistrates ; in case the overseers refused him relief. • Sir J. S CARLE TT said the difficulty might be removed by inserring the words " according to the existing laws not repealed by this 'act." By leaving the clause as it now stood endless litigation would be occasioned. It should be recollected that there were many places in which, by local acts of Parliament, relief to the poor was administered by particular rules and regulations. This was the case, for instance, in Norwich. Now, were the commissioners to have the power of repealing all sueh local acts ? If this was intended by the clause it would give rise to many and great difficulties. The bill gave to the commissioners the power also of auditing accounts. Was the law as it now stood relating to parish accounts to be also got rid of ? At present an appeal lay in matters of ac count from the overseers to the justice, frcin the justice to the quarter sessions, and then to the Court of King's Bench. Was it meant that all this should be superseded by the commissioners? The commis sioners, if the clause was not rendered more clear, might conceive that they had these powers • and if they should be in error there was no remedy, there was no appeal ; there was no power given by the bill to apply to the Court of King's Bench to rectify any errors into which the commissioners might fall by a writ of certiorari. That house would not be a fit tribunal to apply to for the purpose. It would be a dangerous thing to allow the House of Commons the power of construing the laws. Was it, or was it not, the intention to vest the commissioners with the power of doing just as they pleased ? He should feel very reluctant to give such •power to any commissioners, and if it was not intended, that intention ought to be declared. Lord ALT H ORP said it was not intended' by this bill to give the commissioners either the power of making new laws or of altering the existing laws. Sir S. WH ALL E Y—Then the whole of clause thirty-five ought to be struck out. Mr. BUL LER would ask, what inconvenience could arise if the commissioners were empowered to sweep away all the local rules and regulations by which, under particular Acts of Parliament, different parishes were managed ? If they were not swept away the act would be quite inoperative. Did the member for Norwich ( Sir J. Scarlett) seriously think that the words of this clause gave to the commission ers the power of dispensing with the laws ? If there was a doubt upon the point it ought to be removed. The hon. member who said the clause gave this power of dispensing with the laws might be a good lawyer, but he did not understand the English language. ( Cries of " Oh !") Certainly ninety-nine out of every hundred Chancery lawyers would understand the words as giving only a power to administer•the existing laws. The report of the commissioners showed that parishes under select vestries and local laws were the most grossly mismanaged. Sir J. SC ARL ETT said he did not pretend to a very critical or very extensive knowledge of languages. The hon. gentleman might be a very great proficient in the English,, but he seemed to be ignorant of the law upon this point, and he would, therefore, tell him what it was. A writ of certiorari was a writ which the Court of King's Bench had the power of granting, and the object of it was to keep within the laws those functionaries who were entrusted with the administra tion of them. Suppose the commissioners were to make a rule refusing relief to any class of persons, at common law there was a remedy by application to the Court of King's Bench for a writ of certiorari, and if the rule was inconsistent with law the court would quash it. Mr. BULLER said that he did not mean to have used such strong language, and he regretted having done so. He thought it would be very mischievous to give the Court of King's Bonch a power of deciding in all such cases. Colonel EVANS said he must complain of the con duct of the noble lord ( Althorp) in the management of this bill. The noble lord said there was no inten tion of empowering the commissioners to interfere with acts of Parliament so as to repeal or alter them. There were, however, various clauses which gave them that power, in at least one or two hundred different cases of individual parishes. He wished the noble lord would distinctly state what were the real powers which it was meant by this act to confer on the commissioners, Mr. B. CARTER understood the noble lord to say that the existing laws were not to be interfered with. Lord ALTHORP had already stated the way the' commissioners we,re to interfere. The fact was that the present bill would only give them the power of al tering at their discretion certain regulations mentioned in the schedules of the act, and certain by-laws, made in conformity with other acts of Parliament. Mr. ROEBUCK made an observation which was not understood in the gallery. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—If the commis sioners should repeal existing laws they would do it without having any authority to do so. He contended that there were provisions in the proposed act to pre vent the commissioners from violating existing laws. Whatever they were about to do they would have pre viously to consult the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and then they would be obliged to get the sanction and authority of that house. So that all precautions were taken by that house to prevent the commissioners from violating the act. The object of the clause was to give the commissioners an adminis trative power as to the relief of the poor, and to enable them to carry that power into effect. There were particular provisions in the act to prevent them from possessing a general or absolute power. Where were now the acts to authorise nine-tenths of what was done by the parish authorities ? The great evil at present was that the spirit of the laws was departed from. All that the present act would do would be to give power to persons who would be more responsible than the actual local authorities. Sir W. HORNE was decidedly of opinion that if the act were intended to be useful to the public they should be careful that the principle of the poor laws should be set right and placed on a clearer and better basis. (I-Lear.) The administration of those laws should be placed on such a footing that no person could plead as an excuse that they misunderstood them. It could not be seriously contended that a le gislative power was was not given to the commis sioners. From the turn the debate took for the last hour it was scarcely possible to well know what the house wished to enact. He repeated that it was the duty of the house to see that the language of the clause should be so clear that no administrative power or functionaries could plead ignorance as an excuse for misinterpreting it. He would call the attention of the house to the first part of the clause. A question had been asked as to the administration of the laws for the relief of the poor. No answer had been given to that question, and that made him presume that it was not convenient to give a specific answer to it. ( Hear, hear.) His opinion was that the measure would be imperfect unless all parties should understand whether it gave or did not give a power beyond the laws. Lord ALT HORP said that his hon. and learned friend seemed to think that the clause was imperfectly worded. Now from the words of it it could be easily gathered that the administration of the laws for the relief of the poor was to remain in the same bands in which it was at present The principle of the bill was, that the administration of the laws for the relief of the poor should be under the control of the com missioners, but that they should not administer them themselves. They were to have rather a judicial than a legislative power. He had decided objections to the amendment now proposed, and repeated that the prin ciple of the clause was that the administration for the relief of the poor should be under the control of the commissioners. Sir T. FREMANTLE said he should like to know why the right of certiorari should be taken away. If it were left, his objection would be so far removed. Lord H 0 WIC K said the mode of proceeding would be simple. When relief was afforded to improper cha racters the Privy Council was to be petitioned. It was no new thing for the Privy Council to exercise a con trol over new laws and regulations. Mr. GOD SON said that in no part of the bill was there any mention about petitioning the Privy Coun cil. He could not see why the noble lord could ob ject to the words " for relief," &c. Lord HOWICK said that, according to the prin ciple of the act, it was clearly expressed that it was left to the King in council to disapprove of rules either before or 1 fter they came into operation. Lord S AND 0 N said that the discussion had strayed from the beginning to the end of the clause. He would not, h , )Trerer, preen tho amendment he had proposed. „ , . St: e acts of Trarliament* and tbe rigi.ts of remain. It was intended to r.,!rflove. only T;; it had lately Crept into them. J The acne id; was fh..ni Withdraivn. Sir J. SU A RLE TT proposed, as an amendment, that after the fifteenth Hoe of the clause there should be inserted the words--" According to the existing laws, or such not repealed by this act." Mr. LLOYD opposed the amendment, and said that no persons who were now entitled to relief were refused it. He saw no necessity at all for introducing the words proposed in the amendment. 4 Mr. CL AY said that it would be highly satisfactory to the public to learn that the commissmuers . were not to have a legiSlative power, nor be enabled to abrogate the existing laws. Mr. HAL COMB contended that, with respect to education, the new regulations would be binding on the poor, and they would be obliged to submit to them. For that reason he objected to the clause. Mr. JERVIS made a few observations. the purport of which we did not distinctly understand. After a few words from the SOLICITOR-GENERAL and Sir J. SCARLETT the amendment was rejected. Mr. JERVIS proposed that after the word " con trol" (in line 25, - clause:l3) the words " under the guidance of" should be left out:. - - Sir S. 'WHALLEY said that the clause as it at present stood would interfere in a most objectionable manner with the appointment of the auditors of the poor which existed in many parishes. " This," ex claimed the hon. member, " would be particularly the case with those appointed under Sir John Hobhouse's Act in the parishes in my borough." (Loud laughter, with cries of " Hear, hear.") As it would interfere materially with.the act he had alluded to he had no doubt that the noble lord would consent to the amend ment. Lord AL THORP admitted that the manner of ap pointing auditors of the poor was much better than it formerly was; but he thought that if any better mode could be adopted it was desirable that an alteration should be made. In his opinion it would be much better to leave the clause as it now stood. The amendment was negatived. Lord ALT H 0 RP stated that he intended to move that the latter part of the clause be made a separate clause. The clause, as amended, was then agreed to. The CHAIRMAN then read the latter part of the last clause, as originally printed in the bill, as a separate clause. Mr. liAWES stated that the clause directed that the rules and regulations, if objected to in a parish, should not be enforced until they had been forty days before the Secretary of State. He moved that the parish should have forty days to consider of such rules, zir.c. By this means the parishes would be able to re monstrate. Lord ALTH 0 RP said that the parishes would have the power of remonstrance after the rules were brought into operation as well as before. He thought that in some instances it might not be desirable that the regulations of the commissioners should be pub lished before they came into operation. The amendment was then negatived., Colonel TOR RE NS then moved, " That the rides, orders, and regulations issued by the commissioners shall not be binding upon any parish unless approved by a majority of the owners of property and ratepayers in such parish ; and that, in the event of a majority of the owners of property and ratepayers disallowing the rules, orders, and regulations proposed by the com missioners, the law officers of the Crown shall petition Parliament for leave to bring in a. special or local bill for enforcing the same, the dissenting parishes being allowed to be heard by counsel in support of their ob jections." Lord A LTHORP said that the adoption of the words of the clause would make a very considerable alteration in the principle of the bill, and would pre vent the putting a stop to a system now prevailing in many parts of the south of England which it was one of the main objects of the bill to get rid of. If they took the course recommended by the hon. and gallant officer, and declared that no alteration should be made unless with the consent of the majority of the rate payers of the parish, the effect would be to leave the parishes in the southern counties nearly in the state in which they at present were. This would be the case, because in many parishes the worst administration of the poor laws was supported by the majority of the rate-payers. He said, therefore, the effect of the first part of the alteration proposed by his gallant friend would be to destroy all the objects of the bill. With respect . to the second part of the amendment he would only observe, that he never heard of any act of Parlia ment containing a clause directing that a f iture Par liament should preserve a certain line of ce.idnct. He of course, to be consistent, must say that future Par liaments must pass such bills. •He (Lord Althorp) admitted that the amendment might possibly be adopted with reference to the parishes of the north of England. Lord S AND ON objected to many parts of the clause, but could not consent to the amendment of the gallant officer, as it struck at the radical principle of the bill. The bad management of the rate-payers in many parts had brought about the present state of things. Colonel T 0 RREN S said that the noble lord as serted that the adoption of the principle of the amend ment would altogether mutilate the bill, at the same time he admitted that the administration of the poor laws was not so defective in the north of England as it was in the south. He ( Colonel Torrens) would only in say reply, that, if the ratepayers in the south of England could be shown that the adoption of good rules and regulations would reduce the poor rates, they would, on the principle of self-interest, resort to them. He approved of the principle of the bill, and he was satisfied that if his amendment was adopted it would get rid of a great deal of that jealousy and op position which would otherwise exist against it. Such a regulation would make the bill popular, and remove the objections of many now opposed to it. The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none took place. Some blanks having been filled up in the clause, and some verbal amendments having been agreed to, Sir J. SCARLETT objected to that part of it which limited the appeal against any rule or regulation made by the commissioners, and which might be con trary to the law of the land. In such a case he thought neither the Privy Council nor that house the best tribunals to afford redress. The power of deciding in such cases was usually in the Court of King's Bench, which thus operated as a Court of Cassation ; and wherever the authority of the Court bad been taken away by Acts of Parliament the greatest incon venience had arisen. The parties upon whom these rules and regulations were to be imposed ought to have the right, as in other cases, of protecting them selves by the right of taking any disputed 'legal point into the King's Bench by certiorari. He moved that the words of the clause prohibiting the appeal be left out. Lord ALT HOR P, agreeing in the general advan tage of an appeal to the Court of King's Bench, thought in this particular case, if it were made so, there would be scarcely any general rule but what some parish or other would object to and litigate. For this reason he should wish, as at present advised, not to leave out the words of the clause. Sir T. FREMANTLE said that if the general rules were to be such that each of them would cause some parish or other to move a writ of certiorari against it, then it was the more necessary to give to parisnes the right which all the analogies of the law of the land warranted. After some conversation upon the point Lord AL THORP was understood to say that he would take the suggestion of his learned friend into consideration. He would also state that, in the succeeding clause, he meant to move a provision that in the case of all ge neral rules issued by the Commissioners out of the Session of Parliament they should be submitted within one week after the commencement of the subsequent Session to both Houses of Parliament or to one of his Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State. After a further Ihort conversation, the clause, with its amendments, were agreed to. The committee then proceeded to clause 14. Mr. HAWE S moved to fill up the blank for the timo allowed for the circulation of rules in parishes before being put in operation with one month," which was agreed to. After a few words from Mr. PEA SE and Lord ALTHO RP, the 14th clause was agreed to. On the 15th clause being proposed, Sir S. WHALLEY objected to the multitudinous powers given to the commissioners and their assistants. Why were they to be entitled to attend vestries, and take part in discussions ? Lord A L THORP contended, that it was extremely desirable that the commissioners should have an oppor tunity of persuading the vestries. After some further conversation, the clause was agreed to. The 16th clam wft agreed 0. The 17th clause was proposed, and after sonic 66 n ver.o.tlcin vreed to. On clause 18, gurhorisit% building vTollitouses, 81:- T. VIIEMANTLL pointed out the great pres sure 00 . t.11c agricultural parishes, rind suggested that. a vote of public money on the principle of the education .zrant should be made to assi.it the a . s.riculturalparishes. Lord ALTHORP said that parish could be ea - opened to build a Workhouse: The clause was agreed to. On clause 19 being proposed, giving p..:wer to the commissioners to enlarge . workhouses, with or without the consent of the parishes, being proposed, Sir S. WHALLEY protested against the clattse altogether. Lord ALTHORP said his Ottleet Was merely to enable the commissioners to make slight alt. , ..ations. He, therefore, proposed to limit the outlay in any tint case to 501. The clause having been amended to that effect, after some conversation, was agreed to. The 20th clause, after some conversation, and after undergoing some verbal amendments, was agreed to. The CHAIRMAN then obtained leave to report pro gress, and to sit again on Friday next. The house then resumed. The other orders of the day were then proceeded upon. MERCHANT SEAMEN'S WIDOWS BILL. On the motion for the third reading of the Mer chant Seamen's Widows Bill, Sir J. GRAHAM said that after the vote which the house had come to on a preceding night he had consulted his colleagues, and they had come to a reso lution, not to offer any further opposition to the bill ; but it would be necessary that the deficiency of 22,0001. a year should be made up to Greenwich Hospital out of the consolidated fund, and he hoped the hon. member for London would consent to postpone the third reading of the bill to Friday, in order that provision might be made for supplying the deficiency out of the consolidated fund. The third reading of the bill was then postponed. CIVIL LIST PENSION BILL. On the motion for the third reading of the Civil List Pension Bill being read, Sir H. HARDINGE wished to know whether it was the intention of ministers to make any alteration in the 10th clause of the bill? Sir J. GRAHAM said that it was the intention of ministers so to alter the 10th clause as to give the treasury the power of fixing pensions according to the merits of the parties. The bill was then postponed to Friday next. JEWS' DISABILITIES BILL. On the motion for the house resolving itself into a committee of the whole house upon the Jews' Disa bilities Bill. Mr. C. BRUCE said he would divide the house upon every stage of the bill. The house then divided For the Committee Against it Majority 56 The bill then went through a committee without further opposition. The Chimneysweepers' Regulation. Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. LANGDALE obtained leave to bring in a bill to legalize marriages celebrated by Roman Ca tholic clergymen in England and Wales. HOUSE TAX REPEAL BILL. The House Tax Repeal Bill went through com mittee, and the report ordered to be received this day. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock. CORTES BONDS. The immense stake held by English capitalists in the Spanish Cortes' loans, causes all the bearings of the Madrid intelligence to be canvassed with extreme strictness, in order to form a judgment as correctly as possible how far those old obligations of Spain are likely, under the new system of government, to be fulfilled. It is seen by the official declaration relative to the late negotiation for a loan, that the subject in volves too great responsibility for the regency or the ministers to deal with it, and that it is to be referred to the Cortes,without, however, anything more being done by the government than a recommendation to take the question into consideration, that assembly being left to determine the amount and the manner of compen sation. In the passage of the government declaration, published this morning, which refers to this point, there is some ambiguity, owing partly to an incorrect translation of it, copied from Galiynani's Messenger. The original would appear to imply a doubt, though that is also left to the decision of the legislature, whether the country is able to bear such an additional burden as vc ould be imposed from this source. As the passage is important, we have been requested to publish a literal translation of it, which is as follows: " Her Majesty has been pleased to conform to the above mentioned opinion of her council of ministers, obtaining this this advantage—that at the same time that the foun dations of credit are laid, and important reforms effected in the finances and administration of the state, the Cortes themselves will deliberate and determine, the proposal being first submitted by the Government, whether this be a case for makinc , use of the credit of the nation, from the insufficiency of ordinary resources, and in order not to lay more burdens on the people." Of course the fulfilment of pecuniary claims by a government, as by private individuals, must depend on the, possession of the means ; but the resources of a great nation are not of so definite a nature, and the state of credit to which Spain aspires, and appears, by the declaration above quoted, to be anticipated, is not to be attained, in the opinion of the English creditors, without a most liberal satisfaction of those claims which they also feel strongly convinced that the re sources of Spain, properly administered, are sufficient to meet. They will feel deep disappointment if the new Spanish legislature, in its estimate of those resources in connexion with their claims, does not draw somewhat upon the future for the purpose of meeting them more effectually. From the general tenour of the letters from Madrid, it may, we think, be safely inferred that this question will be liberally dealt with by the Cortes ; in fact, many of the leading men, who are likely to possess influence in that assembly, have already expressed their opinions to that effect, and their intended strenuous support to such a course of policy. The chief apprehension that seems now to be felt arises frqm the delay which must take place before this ques tion can come on for deliberation. The period for the assembling of the Cortes is stated to have been fixed for the 24th of July, but that is not yet officially an nounced, and some of the letters express doubts whe ther, if the meeting does not then take place, the assembly can meet to transact business, as that is the time when the great heats prevail in Madrid. It is thought, therefore, should the Cortes actually assemble then, that a prorogation must shortly afterwards take place. It is further remarked, that when the meetings of deliberation and business do actually commence, the question which must necessarily take the precedence of all others is that of establishing the succession of the Crown, in the event of the deaths of both the daughters of Ferdinand, and as the ministerial measure is to be based on the exclusion of Don Carlos and his family for ever from the succession, a long and violent_ debate may be looked for, in which the ministers may possibly be outvoted and retire from office, to the great hindrance of all other business to be transacted by the Legislature. This seems, on the current in formation of the day, to be the fair view of the posi tion of the Cortes' bondholders. Some delay, per haps a considerable one, is to be expected ; but as the state of things settles down in Spam, the Govern ment will extend its resources, and improve its credit, and the conclusion is on no account to be hastily adopted that they will ultimately be placed in a worse situation by that delay.— Times. A lady was observed walking along the banks of the canal, near Warrington-place, about eight o'clock on Thursday evening, and the wildness of her demeanour excited a suspicion in the minds of several persons whom she met that she was about to' destroy herself. They followed her at a distance for the purpose of watching her movements, and at length saw her fling herself into the canal. A Mr. Litton, (brother, we believe, to the eminent King's Counsel) happened providentially to be passing at the time, and on observing the circumstance ran immediately to the spot. After stripping off his coat and hat, which he gave to a by-stander, he plunged in after the unfor tunate lady, and re scue d h er from her perilous situa tion. Assistance was promptly rendered to restore her to consciousness, and, having recovered a little, she was conveyed in a carriage to her residence. Mr. Litton, on turning round to look for his clothes, found that the person to whom he had intrusted them had disappeared, and he was obliged to proceed to the house of a friend in Mount-street to procure a fresh supply.—Dublin Evening Mail. rAssAor, or Tier souNn. 1 a r •• I I were firctt liritairti 6 .1 r: 19th Sl.v , It illeh a were British td 3 foreig,n ; all from foreiy,o for Great Britain. 20th May.—Arrived 9 ships, of which 7 were British 1 - td 2 foreigA ; 3 British from Great Britain, 2 foreign orri ditto';, i" British from America, 3 foreign for British pm-ts. CARGOES rot GREAT BRITAIN. In British Ships. In Foreign Shirk 4) Timber Hoards Flax Hemp Oakum Bones CA ItG01:5 FROM GREAT BRITAIN. Coals Ballast 5pit.................. 1 C .‘ RGOES t . 14 V g 0N E FOREIGN FORT TO ANOTHER. Grain 11,11, ...... 1 General cargo from') 1 America The following is extracted fi'ln a letter dated Elsinore, May `2O, 1834 :—" The ships from t he Baltic sincelast p ost have sailed after clearance. Those li'grn the North Sea have likewise proceeded. Wind from 7 4 % to S. W.—at present clear." SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. VESSELS ENTERED INWARDS AT THE CUSTOIIf‘HOUSZ, LONDON, MAY 26. _ The Deiphin, from Christiansand—Hayti, from Hotter" , dam—Leopold 1., from Ostend—Harmon). from Leith— City of Hamburgh, frOrt Hamburgh—Attwood, from Rotterdam—Active, from Dtmkirk—Ceres, from Frede rickstadt—Lady Stewart, from riantzic—Lady Dundas, from Riga—Vrouw 'Dienke and Hoap i from Worcurn__ Gogatods .Minde, from Christiania--Jonge Joanna, from Antwerp-Atalanta, from Dantzic—George Anson, froM Constantinople—George, from Rostock—Caesar, fromDe merara. ENTERED OUT FOR LOADING, MAY The Cedric, for Boston—Charles, for Newfoundland— Tourist, for Hamburgh—Guardian, for Sydney, New South Wales—Lusitania, for Oporto—Lereret, for Genoa —lrwell, for Elsinore—Demerara Planter, for Demerara --Elizabeth and Hero, for Bilboa—Heros, for Calais— Jubilee, for New York—Susan and Ann, for Toulon— David Scott, for Sydney, New South Wales., CLEARED OCT WITH CARGO, MAY 26. Orontes, for Madras and Calcutta—Tyro , for Cadiz — Anne, for Tobago—William IV., for Demerara—London, for Hamburgh—Tropic, for Barbadoes--Mark Brads, for Leghorn. CLEARED OCT IN BALLAST, VAT 26. Victory, for Bathurst--MarT, William, and Jobbing 5, for Archangel—London, for Calcutta—Panl, for Barrc lona—Herald, for St. Petersburgh. VESSELS SPOKEN WITH. The Asia, from London to Madras, Bengal, and China, on the 2d ult., in lat. 15, long. 20 W. The Theodosia, from Newcastle to the Mauritius, on the Bth inst. in lat. 39, long. 14, by the Mary Gunton, arrived off Dover, from Messina. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. TATTERSALL' S. THE DERBY. The betting was not heavy yesterday, on any but the two first favourites, whose friends mustered in great force ; the highest odds offered wers 5 to 2 against Bubastes and 7 to 2 against Plenipotentiary, half a point above either quotations being taken with avidity. A few bets were made about Shilelah to small amounts, and several en pnrtsicewseNrveerme : ad .... ! on Glencoe at ti and 9 to 1 . The e g l ag os 7to agst Mr. Batson's Plenipotentiary ( 4 to 1 taken) Sto agst D. of Cleveland's Shilelah ( 7 t o 1 taken) en gagements 2 agst Mr Watt's Bubastes ( 5 to 1 taken) • Bto agst Lord Jersey a Glencoe (taken) 14 to agst Mr. Yates's Bentley (taken) •.:0 to agst Sir M. Wood's Br to Marpessa (taken) 25 to agst Mr. Gardnor's Comet (50 to I taken) 40 to agst Duke of Rutland's Young Barresa c. (taken) 40 to agst Duke of Grafton's Olympic (offered) s'l to agst Mr. Houldsworth's Darius (taken) 50 to agst Caphio Hunter's Morotto (offered) 50 to agst Mr. Cosby's Stradbally (offered) 50 to agst Duke of Cleveland's Guardian Offered! 50 to agst Mr. Gully's Victor (offered) 1,0 to agst Mr. Mills's Pincher (offered) 10 10 to 15 agst Lord Lowther's Trictrac c. (offered) 1000 to 15 agst Mr E. Peel's Noodle (offered) SOO to 100 agst Plenipotentiary winning the Derby and Co tillon the Oaks (• aken) 'NO to 101 agst BUbastcs and Cot lion for same events (tak.) 1n..0 to 50 agst Shilelah and Cotillon for same events (taken) 500 to 400 on three asst the field (taken) 604 to 500 on the field agst two (taken) 8 , 11 to 4 , 0 on Plen potet7tisry agst Shilelah (taken) 6!so to 500 that Bubastes wins agst Cotillon (taken) 1000 on Stradbally agst Darius (taken) 1110 to RN on Stradbally agst Pincher (taken) OAKS. 5 to 2 agst Mr. . Walker's Cotillon (3 to 1 taken) 6 to 1 agst lord Berner's May-day (offried) 6 to 1 agst Mr. Forth's Louisa (offered) 12 to 1 agst any other. • • DONCASTER ST. LEGER. R to 1 apt Mr. Walker's Cotillon ;offered) SOUTH SHIELDS RACES, May 19. The Tyne Plate. Heats. Mr. Kirbv'a Longtown 3 1 1 . _ Alr. Shipley's b. in. by Octavius Mr. Francis's The Major 2 0 0 Two others started. The County Plate. Heats. Mr. Hornsby's br. c. System I Mr. Greenwell's b. c. Frank 0 2 Mr. Dinney's b. m. by X.Y. Z 2 0 Mr. Williamson's br. g 3 dr TUESDAY.—The Member's Plate was won by System, beating Longtown, Bud, Creepin Jane, and Frank. WEDNESDAY.—A Free Handicap was won by Mr. Francis's The Major, beating Longtown, Polly, b. m. by Octavius, and b. m. by X. Y. 'L. NE WT ON RACES, Jane 6. The Shrigley Cup, value 100 soya., given by W. Turner, Esq., M.P., added to a Handicap Stakes of lb soya. each, 10 ft., and 5 sovs. only if declared on or before the 2d of June. The winner of the Manor or Borough Cup to carry 31bs. extra. One mile and a half. The owner of the second horse to receive 25 sovs. out of the stakee. Chancellor, 5 yrs., 9st. 81b. Lockington, 4 yrs., 7st. 81b. Circassian, 6 yrs., 9st. Rousseau, 4 yrs., 7st. 81b. Lady Stafford,byrs.,Bst. 101 b Harriet, 4 yrs., 7st. 71b. Independence, aged, Bst. 91b Lady Moore Carew, 4 yrs., Mowbray Hi 11,5 yrs., Bst. 61b 7st. 21b. Falconbridge, 5 yrs., Bst. 21b Bridegroom, 4 yrs., 7st. 21b. Trepidation, 4 yrs., Bst. 21b, Marianne, 4 yrs., 7st. 21b. Lucy, 5 yrs., Bst. 11b. Miss Margaret, 3 yrs., 7st. Stainton, 5 yrs., Bst. Polander, 3 yrs., 7st. Languish, 4 yrs., Bst. MissGolborne,4l.s.,bst.l2lb Despot, 4 yrs., 7st. 121 b. Journeyman, 3 yrs., 55t.121b Weeper, 4 yrs., 7st. 121 b. Juliana, 3 yrs., sst. 121 b. Caliban, 4 yrs., 7st. 121 b. The forfeits to be declared on Monday next. HIS MAJESTY'S BREEDING STUD. The annual sale of yearlings, bred at the Hampton Court breeding establishment, took place yesterday at Tattersall's, in the presence of a ♦eeryry numerous assem blage of the nobility and gentry. The lots gave rise to some spirited competition, and were knocked down as fol lows : Chesnut colt by Sultan—Rachel (to Lord Wesimin- ster) „. 450 Chesnut colt by Waterloo, dam by Comus—Cobweb (Mr. Kent) 220 Chesnut colt by the Colonel—Galatea (Mr. Goodwin) 150 Bay colt by Starch—Peri (Mr. Corbin of Virginia) 120 Bay colt by Lamplighter—Elfrida (Mr. Yates) 3OO Bay colt by Lamplighter—Sister to Spermaceti (Mr Yates) - 260 Brown colt by Velocipede—Delphine (Lord Lich field) - 165 Bay colt by Soliman, dam by' Comus (Mr. —.) „ 5O Chesnut filly by The Colonel—Posthuma ( Mr.Nates) 230 Chesnut filly The Colonel—Lamia (Lord Exeter) 260 Chesnut filly by Emilius—Marie (Mt. ---) .... . Bay filly by Sultan—Spermaceti (Mr. Yates) .. Chesnut filly by Comus, dam by Partisan ( 61r.Stubbs ) 38 Chesnut filly by the Colonel—Ada (Lord Lichfield) 150 Bay filly by Ile Colonel—Ambrosio's dam (Mr. Copeland) ••••411 . .... 43 Chesnut filly by The Colonel—Scandal (Mr Kent) 155 Bay filly by The Colonel—Miss Clifton (Lord Ches terfield) Chesnut filly by Velocipede, dam by Juniper (Mr Stubbs) • 43 ; , 2,990 Total i NEWPUBLICATIoNs.—We are requested to 'state that on the Ist of June, will appear with the Magazines -1. The Poetical Works of Ann Radcliffe, - . now first collected in 2 vols. post Bvo. 12s. bound 2. Narrative of a Residence of the Court of Ave, the Capital of the Burman Empire, by John Crawfurd, Esq., F. R. S., late Envoy. The Second Edition, in 2 vols. Bvo. with Plates and Maps, 325.-3. Tho Night Watch, or Tales of the Sea, in 2 vols., forming the concluding Number of the Naval and Military Library of Entertainment, published at only 4s. per vol. bound-4. Mr. Grattan's New Series of High- . ways and By-Ways, 3 vols., forming the Ju:ie Number Of Colb urn ' s M o d ern Novelists. Orders for either of these works are requested to be sent early to the Booksellers to prevent disappointment. Published for 11. Colburn, by R. Bentley. Agents for Scotland, Bell and Bradfute, Edinburgh; and for Ireland; John Cumming, DUblin. • •