The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-02 00:00:00

wa, was in a situation whit the stigmas which he had by to discharge its dut had stigmatized botht roP o language which he 1110 nev , r, either in or out of Pi the House much inteapt) Noble Lord had said thrrat 1 by the demands of the pro ve of that House would e r I rence to the number of dentulf I it the House would never s ith its deliberative charscte people did demand Refortu.- ectly well aware that at forco fir had been used, although n' t yet with great authority, to reform itself, for thee/P eat „.. .r it,_ country hat Was it that had first induced the Sovereigns Z. , %nary to call a Parliament together ? It was be ese ti :_leY wanted men and moneyto carry on their wars; 14 o : z i r aPPeal . had bsen made to the liberi homi . aes. 4, crnm t .t.hing that took place was ' the calling on the e ke e. _?nities" to assist at these Parliaments ; but in this ti e , ,'co community' bail lint one vote, so that even if stia.lembers were returned they hail but one vote between e g h t „ . At that time the county of Cornwall had but s tets _ - ‘ternbers. He presumed, that if it could be shown `her laces were called on to return Alembers which were parishes nor mar k et towns , i t wou ld b e a d m itt e d t h ere thou: places could not be very considerable. Now 4 4 i were Ilaslemere, West Lone, and others, which ' evu• been the n othey had til ed 0_ one or other, and yet been tlii, he tto 'tend repentatives to Parliament. After ta u 0 01 (1 not see w r it e ho could be contended that popula repa: tarition was the basis on which the principle of towesenitiation had been grounded, for not only small e rg ': t had been called on to send representatives, but , 4to st i °W " had been left unrepresented ; and this was a e lm thll:peitant pnint, in answer to those who pretended i odd Well "1Y asked for ]statemento of the Coustitution. led—lf the Noble Ler" tn.teele t ioe 4 remembered the in that House of an n tot, . e ~:k° and Learned Gentleman (now Lord Brougham) who mle was not to end ' L. t oe , , se to "std that bra object was nut revolution, but restore he correction ; but as in b e tlti ,' ! °4 : tliat Noble Lord had said that be was an enemy to was probably understoouseeno el f sol oaar . t sli , tite e • Y and untried experiments—to rash and untried leard it—(Hear)--i le ° , II ". H • it,the peoP a le s „ , He ,(Sir R. Inglis) called op. that Noble and id not grant it own hands —(Huai' eir y , e ag ent , 0 ; 1 ry many periods in the loi lite e b e i ng a t ras, char ge which he had brought against it, of n and untried *peculation, utterly destructive of iu to state, when be s'l le aro , etssy et ins had been made ter are lqii- e o u r _ that had hitherto existed. He called on the ei Lie:lents: anY not be so vehement or so : ou r lee dope d . to show what trace of what he had that night le e testa that in the former precedents of England. Let him : at all events they We re e town or borough had been called into Par clamations then which t . V., n, that they now came h` fie l er oill" !Itr excl.. , Y.efaistenee because it smallgo aell populous, min it, because it was. Tire kiOle Lord :hority of the Ministry. P . _ A O bee tte 7, l tc , l th any reference to yeti , e io tbl L : d 'i a r ,,, lnak e much of the instance of Old Sarum ; and Ith e h. os been the great stumbling-block with those panne in Burke Whi ch pre; to tb e o eeer: . th e oa f! iiresue.sl the some line of argument. In one and apply almost exaedY a was from a work of hi' ee; li oied 7 Year—the 2,3 d of redteeaett I. —a wait had been e of the present Disc o the pre: t oe L t , (? both Old and New Sarum, and ;et neither to e 0 " 't been conferred on account of pooulae ordinarily applicable t° :,. to tlic when he should re ad 1 1, ` t tt , th at it ' , taaatien. On the contrery, he believed would venture to sa3r, t ;le kbli ge t, °ad been gi,yees itt the first instance to :Oat be outlived, just as „wt . t he la er , e gar). Of Salisbury, by peeing Iris friends iu O at . se. Aiel in an account of the heronell'it was staied so strongly in Mr. Buth e ot %,ll o 4 ~_ a had i - .. ~ a . . ran thus—" There la a ° ithe' -sor of thlately been purchased by Mr. Pitt, tbe pose ot o th e . ~,, , a . 5 celebrated - diamond of that name, who had the present conjuncture' tof power who holds tol oe e e l tel l' eh t mod an hereditary seat in the House of Commons, as th e Earl of Arundel possessed one in the House iything above or below, a b ! ae st' 4 P een , itire ; but that disconnect! to n , ha te , w l l beieg the riw:oe- of Arundel Castle. How, irties, in families, in Parl e el' 01 0: e "itto be said that, according to til,e Ppostit2tion admitted ens 4 o p f a r is ) : 01 : 0 9 ,t 1 , ,, _Ol !hei r • "ntsy, Noblemen were not ee he represented' and eto4l.4lll4teftrfests regarded in that lion i t;e ? Vie cause i;f* the arve d rs! h ll e y many boroughs was, lie delieved, obscure ; but, e more extraordinary, bested l' 34 th itse j tai e other listed some were as clear and as well ascer rmerly divided and ag .. a ls e s e _ . •• , ie in a manner entirely d i ne pen tet e A r possible. p,„ kutosee that two writs to re y has visited the n atiorl! in 0 1 1 1 en ' e ' e ulbers had peen issued by Elizabeth, at the desire to not labour at present te t i, ' liet eport °l her fevourites, Sit. Chriatopher Hatton ; and er oppresstve in • • the. On c e& t ° pl ,in the Isle of wi t ot. had received its franchise so rOf ' a " Sir ., •'• ' ' ' • • , r ewe engaged in 12 . 6 , per fe r „ the , G. Tha no Carets. ~ s as toe hiseoey of te t an7 misfortunes might easily, , P, •°°elie.. u it iall boroughs ; and, in 'fact, all the Cornish bp • was the statement W° l " a oat Pir ate It d Exclusively been formed in that manner. make; but all this see lo, of li ri zht " 9 Jeoenieh boroughs had at one time received the e vigour and the firrnoe s e oll .Villages representation, some of whipi: were only small _ e a, . 0.. and none of' them entitle! to rink .. o af a r this pings had been remov „else ei,.. te , , . .as cn..l e a ititution of the country Pool te talk _te towns of Englatid. ;t was in sae er be statement of another au to e" tlea s a t Z t e t il he poeitte of representation in former times. He ! year 1782, the people l e ra itt" ''Pret set • oble Lord to paine one eny peeiod when the it was in vain to think 9' •bet' h,reforanen was better than it was at present. ' lie is hardly an hour to spss';,,, 'th e !„ .. "aid, that what was proposed was not restoiatiVe. 'en hg seed " That the pe° ll o 9 . ' ion h e `e end the countin , might judge what it was; expectations, le nd t h a t she i oft ti„ 0. „ ..... , tild state in one word, Out it was " Revelu icy were no l ower able teresr ford'i a ( (a Louil Cheees.)---A RefOrm like that of the :e . ioble t that they would not 1101, ti ' s t o titl e? , 0.. n"thing but Revolution—(Cheering)—a Revo glise was ready to admit t" s to o Pert y.l Z i t y.rfmci overturn all the natural influence of pi is existiog among the peoP P ' e st e , ti•"at eel 4 tz7 , 114.- 7 ( Hear. )—Another oljection to this se Noble Lord. The ere e jP , '‘thl e h ..,, was, that it would derange ell that syetem by the example of France ;,J , , Pe t ,, 0 , 14 ,,! Constitution of this country had'hecome the lalto be found in the th . i . : 'ilia l eir i t, L . %dant], and the admiration of the -world. Under 1 which had followed the' sa fe tia le , i, z) , ;alice,3 which 110 W existed, there bad been at rear,) When there w3' bathsii e tee of utih i let together (enclee Op influence of the Crown in other ,countries, i .!por e ,_i n aristiicrp.4) a body of Ten who hatrilieplayed dieease, and, as such, 1 0 i e se t , , : o ° 4 esty, more virtue, thine public spirit, more •ta ft through the air, or '1 ) ! i i , o ill ever al re z. ere reel for the service of their country, than I not know ; but this et rod :1 au er other their appearance te;thio eV °thee malls, or I 3 popular tumults were Prod trO test b e '.r eeep . try.-...( liter, hear.)-L--He had' alreadY same remarkable effect ~95 t i ro . thO opinion of Mn. pallet!), and he ought at Condorcet there was a g r in *lli t i, t ,!_;9 have Ilserved, tba't many of the towns to red to PailiantentarY R ef e l se thine were Noble 1..; ,, vd propoeeil to titre the elective frau at• es e e ce lat sr ere considerabieplaces at the ethyl when the right obseeved, brat ‘7 •- • 600 kissl'ep,,e,_ • s- 'Awe, 4 hollow ferrueli tti ' difii i eeti "'anon was given to other places, and yet ' they , and had more than olle, 40.,totterl ,-.= Halifax, three Inindred years ago, was solar societies had iieni;',oo4 k at hav e a population of B,4pp ; Wakefield was a i.l the necessity of P 3 r i ' 4 o) , e . t 5 ., ., u,..0 lconsiderable town at the • same 'dine ; and Maticlies lked of as that of callio4b, I , 'its tti c eu r d „ ng to tradieiou, had eot less than 5,400 inhi been in France it , t ao pe tt iail ; I :. two hundred years be'ore the year 1680 ; and; ewn ,that numbers had c ' e f . 1 1 , , 8 44, 44 e ms, it was t.,t'tairi th . i t t at that hate: - period it of England, who et l'iet i° bli'ne(l. . u l.e amount of population - he had `just men- Tation as would irreei4o4, i f es eugh li ii t, iti answer to this, was it to be said that no ming of the coming Poo of are, it ',der' been created after that time, and that, there of such a Reform as on, a r l i tl4l '!e pla -cat h.eOn peseihle to do justice to sttch consi from thence the fort° 6 o fliti) il t• alo e a, " ? 'Jost the rev( eSe of this was' th e fact; edious, because the ea.& t oe 4 1 4 43 , , with respect to ~! date to which he bid referred 4 a England." The conset, 0 . p , ,,,,,,, 1Q _.ttY-one boroughs had been summoned to scud roposedlet it be call ed ", f r b lest to e i. uves to Parliament; and after the date with re be that the whole of .0,601 (1: t t eCej d '"Ch q't e r, f"urteen boroughs had in like man hinds of the people- Pent* e i'ltio r , 0 1 ; write- 'Tr —e 'did not intol4l to enter iptp the the facts of the Noble e tif , 0 e• r ,, to 1 whether it would be advantageous to large !e. They were sent th er br it'',.' l e 'lles a h r 4 eceive the elective francliiie, though he must lay by day according ta re t le t 1 4 by e t 4 did not know how much Manchester had 1' stet 4 hay' ' ' terate judgments, for , ,+ t 4 tea ee t ' I V, every fate or sin year!, supli e;eption el of the State.—(lie ° '; ) e 01, 1 e tat lee. hat which had lately taken place af4iverliool between this case and t' l o - ,0 i ' 1 :416 4 , 1 4 the advantage thus to be derived . was very ,her of petitions ever k le tte k ' ~ Zt i h t tl. " ' il whio of the two--Alanchester or Liver s House—he meant o , 0 ro , et . „ le most proseeroas 4 Lid net know; but that instaoce, as he 'reati'l lil y ; the, 1 0 1 s events, enjoyed a high degree of prove e prayed for the consereot, of ,oth er other on was prosperous with two repreeentatiyes— s4 fl t' witho ssed ; in this instance', eta at fi, oe , 0 _ • ut any ; and he had never beard th,t any range ; tied he never " (3 t o* wire the mmercial intereete of the latter bad Buffered a good a judgment ahe u . r, 1 111 Ht Ee a pe " . •ant of having advneites in that House; who he actually liad.--(l',e:eeY',' qf l 'ild " 4 : ) t i ed willing to maintain its rights.--(Hear.)— insistency in him to lik' '-,,,,„ie,,/ i t t)is No il l, Ther objection to that pert of the proposition in the prayer of the m ir e ' ell et Ptese et.,ti e Lord, in which he would have taxa'ion and d that it was the d e e t ) r p ih lll ,d of the go band ia hat . t d ; 4mt which pot triin in demand. He was e i . ir 2t, ef t , , n e h was title of a pamphlet which he had reen,• and Se numbers entitled t° leeirP, I , e , tati one , e c a, e lled, " Taxation, Tyranny without Repre no advantage to the c ° 1 : t 0p, ,, I j e izki,,,, „,,,,,,,,. objection was, that he did not see how this trite remark, be might De ' ll it le "4 ' 4 tho 4 be ado led ; for in the event of a contested ible for great tyranny toefery tj u P a re ssiita t i o '` e who voted in the minority would haye no ,e. He contended, ther t e C'' t h i n ti i ,be ?li at all. Without makine any per-oval allu int ' gel at ti Might r- 11 1 ' e Nb L d qf voters througo° - N oe , o 1 11 , 0 le st wer tea to tae memory o. the i o . le or either to the fre t !, o'ered.,; tote'3 4 eisti 'e individuals who came into that House only sof that House. l ije , i o ' ,hr i , citlad 0 g ''',.°te• In such caeca, the minority was all ular spot that they r° t ' e to o t IP. tv, P r rex erltatiun tile majority, and yet they were to have no t the King's writ sent bs i . s# etei t t h anythi • If tse principle of the Noble Lord was nilil see that the nue'eresittrl, t he 4 'il , orit ng ' it was worth this—that rin person of as for the smallest tl y t e s r ° ,eit k l lar law, ti }' would be bound to pay the taxes, or obey [insider the affairs of ' l° o' l l , ' l ilt ' l4 their were enacted, as laid representative had no lurch. This was the q i v a d eo t ff b y ti a b ie . _tln. formation. Speh `a principle was wholly l ed of them, and th i 'e' ill' ii ~,'„ k l. et, a n'.._4 authority he contended that such an assertion, made ler place which they repoo ',o; ter, it, ;,, in that House, was calcolated to do , te r e l, 4 , 4 uilbelzief irgunnent might hat' te r a s ~, n et,i , th e , ,as tending against good order, and to that the Member for a r e p r e e4 , c ; ( NI ttio t o P„ e °ple disobedient. The great benefit of the ry borough which he 1 : 0 0-f i ,,' :, t , ?..,u ti o , if ~ the House of Commons as it now existed the Act by which as til ef lt I u ter hi eease tt, e '`'able Lord's plan was adopted that benefit las eligible, there ' o '4 di ee c , (: . s h a at erelt ? . ' was that it admitted all classes, represented n to the local intereso,:o r : }i i t l , toti n e te t ool :. and admitted all talents. If tile proposed When a AierohOr s . i, co ti j th "tied , Place, the Members would he 'almost entirely 0 P 0 Ri n LU Otl e • I to be responsible to .11 be e o,fi,, 4 4e t el e on e , into, est, and no talent be admitted but end of the period wh it. tli ~ p,,4e represents 61 mob oratory. The effect Would be to con :he again cline betbreoto di , he aliN the 'and:ion to thtoe Members who were called • table t ° e d ' t i e th il e p that alone would be sufficient to destroy r was ateoun al ell °t e r eaent other theorists °y b oo e ll ir to t teit re. advantages that the House afforded to s own bands ; like teetioV°i, e lli q t eeh ! ,.. 7 _ t. Alai' of those who sat for close and rotten t theory of the Cor tl e f tl''.esoe olati ti the hey Ilan been that night designated, for the iy part of the practi ce d 'l, r o . t h , ~0f th Y s a tUeniber of the Government-o(Cheere) e)—ln the coi te ,i so rt. ,4. the ncAi se , 't e who load constituted the chief ornaments of , wETre there we re t 7 el'e dity:o44try:wricloullad been in former times the support of imposition as thaL a - g la° ' o f IV Nei e " e ver e at ld, if this plan had been adopted in their favour ; but it' - i',.,,,i0° t, d k I.r , 4 k th e 70 been received into that House. He its of a long anCTlffere t 'd P o i th e e oh ath _ na ble Lord by what other means the great e case was very i es ist e e e c jil gth t bor a had com e into Parliament ? By the bye, bad 0 0 1 Y. s r , P s Sa °ugh fur which to er documents M . ~,1 ~e t , k ha lm , t , eic. ~ _ .t. at great man had sat was Id these were de o l'i t'es r y a o 1 Nile 3 1r. Pitt hid sat for Appleby. Mr. Id derive inform: ta th , t, O eip 04 JOp uioua ' . tl fora close borough, and when rejected it duty. le e k e t.s e!e l e 1),,, tte: e ° , Ai r. P,l:ce, he again took refuge in a close bo )elolme and , Al an matte;, , ; 0 1) 0 4 h e that I:eke had first sat for NVendover ; and ei talk of repreloatg', die 0 ,l'at ' 4 his „ I e a", he became known, he was trans -0 W ''• fine ° EY to B • of population o r,. ae y ,9' J O 0 , b e ,.. , w,n,l Bristol, as Mr. Canning, who also r such a principl e d nor LlP too i t ) tptitlqurtheir talent over, wag transposed to Liverpool.— itution. He c° ° , b e etl e , tl o _ es We et , s ed r„„ rs, 3 once became known, they were the ' 1 tion ha' 01 0 1 ", e se rg e ev er r , i.tativ es of lar y popn a a a Sii t a 0 ,naVe a ]urge towns; but would such The Noble Lor oor 1) n) -t LordChatham, of selecting Mr. Canning, Mr. •le of G O° es r 0 I) .nrt • • n the -vino!) _ . . 4 nj k a i h ve4 un ity ofl if they had not previously had on Old Sarno r., 40 , t 6 llP e °, 'th ) t - as e .• It s lowing their talents in the House ? mid call on blanch 74 b a d O ve , qw _ , sr, „„ () was orde hy e this means that yeung men, oet aou!'. tio p a , 44 , eoz err, Ito ente r • I •h l iwever, In e, e h, _ e s,, r „ , ~ ee _ , ~ or resii.ence wit- large f our history' P°4 o egiP , 'hst tel ' were " r nope to r that House, unless, in :ion on which u_ iiali olt; o leg g o P 11104414 of rob ursed—he called it cursed—with esentatives to Pe,'_'',, l e by,,ej It p si Ni ot , of i,fl a . °ratory, which was need for the ha d b e en P' WO' reO e 0 41 3 off n aing the lowest and most db•it it :, t h e y ,of ro t ho u! stated, the people, e asing ]lam, that s' *as sloe : 40 bi tt,ti , th at O—(llear, hear.) Air. Burke a a p l ace that w of po P - opit s:1 0 0 ,j , tn t i, e rep te , tos ", was essential that all interests it was e place _, t i e , e° e . t t , N l _ Ch et ,_ Lea. The Noble Lord, indeed, had „ e tation °' • the/ oid ' , Nei ° tet''''Yela, bankers andmerchants would repre , _ Lo d if _ tto in: he he 7 tht, hosveve r th i s en eXpl e t e h _ . 5 not, however, taken the ;old gad o ' l ow it was to be done, But this he L rose to explain. Hie !tiaout qualifying it. 'eyed/ the just demands of (Sir R. Inglis) would say, that as law, corn' tierce, and finance, were subjects much discussed in that House, it vu highly necessary that there shoultl be persons con nected with those matters from which the House might derive information. But, at all evente, the other interests of the country seemed to be entirely passed over. How were those who spoke of the interests of the distant colo nies of England to obtain seats ? Let it not be said, that in arguing thus he was arguing in favour of a system of corruption. He never would admit that it was corrupt. If any one could satisfy him that it was a corrupt system, he would be one of the first to Say, that if it involved any breach of faith or duty, the practical advantages could not be such as to justify its continuance. But what he meant to contend was, that under this system our Constitution was formed ; and under this alone could it be main tained. With the exception of the Hon. Member fur Waterford, the lion. Member for Kilkenny. the Hon. Member for Cornwall (as we understood the Hon. Baro net), and the Hon. Member for Stafford-hire, there were very few Members who took an active part in the pro ceedings of that House, who had nut entered it as Mr, Pitt, Mr. Fox, and Mr. Burke had done; and he there fore contended, that unless such opportunity was still &Ceded, it would tend to deteriorate the talent end ability poeseatted by the House. finless lie w as told something more than could be collected from the vague declamation heo had herd that night, he should continue to believe, that at the present roonieot that House was more independent cf the Crown and of the Arietecracy than at any former period. He could eeeily show that roe licuap wee not, in one respect, what it had been forteerlt, het that Marie mare egit'ottt the argument of the Noble Lord than for it. He couhrehow*how moeli . more dependent it was at all three upon the Crown and upon the Aristoeracy than at present. Would it be said thati;oteee . , an e seas d the influnce and that the depeodenee of Authority exercised over it, greater at that time thee in the reign of James IL ? Would the House in at pr'e sent state, bear to he treated as it had been treated in the reign of Henry VIII ? Traciuv the history of Parlia ment and the country down toile fittest years.—there wee no period of our history when the influence of the CroWn Fax so slight as at the tires , nt moment. What was the state of things io ti e. time her queen's Majesty directed the Sheriffs to return to Parliimeut such men only as were of a particular faith in matters of religiOn, and or known compliance in matters of politics ? And, inthe reign pf Edward VI., the Sheriffs were directed to ee'ect Only sueliPenftbere Filled been peeviously recant sent ed by the Privy Council. If they were to refer to the Olden tith e for specimens of the independence of that Hotite,'it would not be to the period of the reign of Henry IV., nor to the time of Richard 11., when a Member of Parliament was threatened to be eeeeeted, for meetly making a motion on the'bio List. Stich summary Vengeance was, indeed, rare in modern eimeS.—(lhre the noise which prevailed gene rally throughout the speech of 'the Hon. Baronet, rose to such a height, that he was for some motnents ineedih'e Wlien tweed, he was repeating his former assertion, iliac at no tine 'heel the House of Commons been So inde pendent Of the CrOwn and of the Aristocracy as at the present day. Time Wee, when the Duchess of IVorforx de terenieed not only who ahoula sit fin' the count) , of Nor: folk, 'but who should reirescnt Meldon in ParliaMent ; when Lord Essex could return his kinsman for the county of Stafford, and his servant for the borough of Tamwoetio In neither case was there that freedoni item influence and that perfect' repeesentation whiCh the reform : leis always assumed to belting to past times. The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to dwell upon the facility (as we understood hitn) with whieir the repeei of taxes had of late veers i;een conceded to senseleis 'ciambur.' 'He hoped that no feelings of tinilditi would so far influence the votes of that House as to put the just rights of the Crown to 11a7ard l GC . entiaoger toe priocipies of that teonstieutlon tinder *Melt the cotintrn had so long flourished, and "foam the loss of which it would inevitably decay. Unless the Hou-e was prepared to restore that negative of the Crown, whieli though diSeusectl sines the Revolution, had never been totally 4; stmyed—unfe.s they were prepared to restore that negative, they could never presunie to go any length in al t, ring the state of the representation. He begged of them to recollect what had been the amount of the secret service money antecedently lo s the period of the Revolution and it was well known that secret service money bad always been used for the purpose of procuring majorities in that House to promote theoviews of the Crown and the Ada:lei:ore t.ien.fin ttie time being. The amount of the secret service Money at : the time to which he 'referred was po,boin. a year, being one-twentieth of the whole income of the country at the period in oueetiop, At the preser t t day tjae secret servile money did Time'amounf to titre seven-hub- . dredth part of the income of the nation, and no man now believed that anything like direct pecuniary bribery was practised upon the Ilternbo - 9 of that of had' been for the last'forty or fifty yeate. He &lieveil that no man in . the 'country believed hitt that'any indncement in the nature of pecuniary bribe to any Member to give hisrvute in a particular manner unen any coestioa would be re jected with ciisdah.t.—(Hear, hear.) He was assured that no direct pecuniary bribe was usually offered in these times; and he entertained no doubt, that if such bribes were of fered, they would be utterly unavailing to inauce Nembera, nt that House to give their votes nae way or the other. He knew' that in the time of Mr. Pitt loans were given—. that is, shares in loans were given to such Members of that House as were in the habit of supporting his Alaje,ty'm Government. Those loans were made in secret, and tic abates were dietaiborod amongst the government Mem bers.; but since that time 'he *as perstmeied that nothing in the nature of pecuniary bribery was to be heard of in connection with the Members of that House. Even the porrepiee by plaees had in a great degree ceased to exist ; and 'front the diminatioo of placemee within the walls of that House, the lit;use had lost much of the legiti mate influence which it ought to possess, but it was a 1 the while gaining power of another de.criptien and in a different manner; and whatever pewee. the Crown was*ing'the House gained. The time had new art ivied when Members were heard to eay-- e he hoped they Would never beenahled to say ap upon grounds_' that it was now idle to talk of 'the Arnbaseaders being the servants of the Crown. He really was in no slight de gree surprised when it was said that the Ambassadors to Foreign States were not to be considered as the servants pt the Crown. Wae not the Peewee att essential anti inherent Part of the Constitution And . it it possessed 'the poWer of making peace or war=-of maintaining amicable or hos tile relations with other Poweri, surely, then, the Am balesatlors it tsent forth were to be considered its servants. If Ambassadors it sent forth were to lee considered the servants of the Crown, the Army and Netter, by the same rule, might be called the servants of the State, and that would lead at once to ;melting short of republicanism. In further proof of there being not t ny necessity for Main, but of its being unjust and inexpedient, he would observe, that at no period of the history of this country had there been so little party spirit itethe business of the Legislature as at the present day ; and •,:hat he confeapd he loCked ueon t as one 'of the inisfortnees of the times that thece was no party in the present day--the misfortune of the time was, that there were no two great leading men to di vide in nearly equal portions the House and the country, and to take the lead of each divison, under whose banners public men might range themselves ; but though that was not the case, and though it was to be regretted that it, should be so, yet it was at least available for one pose—that of affording an nygunlc.nt againet Referm, as showing the intlependehee of lodividuar MenherS of Par liament. It was almost ludiciOus to notice so often the frequent references to old times, seeing that they made So much against the interest ef the Reformers in the time of Elizabeth ; so far from the House possessing a greater degree of influence than at present, that Queen told them in direct terms that they were not to interfere , with matters concerning her prerogative rtywl. she et peeseed her admiration.eetnot 14 the etriegistia sense of the word—that they should have presumed to interfere with the exercise of her ererogative ; and such was their ser vility and subservience at that period, that they went se riously about taking into consideration whether or not they would ask permission to treat about such small mat ters as sheep, and wool, and melt ; but it .iy4g the opiniott of the ,:7ouse that they Were 'Joe weak to treat of. such •natters'iss peace and war. Every day the people were becoming more and, more intelligent, and further and greater was the sympathy between the people ani their representatives. One great source of the increasing in fluence of the people was the increasedanmeot of petie tions nreseneed to that House. The" Noble Lord himself co uld not deny that the petitions. to that House had of a p r odigiously increased. In the y ear 1701, w f amous Kentish petition was pr esente d, i t was lookedt years quitea prodigy, 'filen the increased in fluence of the Press a fforded another argument against Reform ; it w as an influence by s o t - a h t i e eli ‘ e i h e e r y e ehoyeurendelbl by the or less bound—all eTtlgs o influence ha tie and of book clubs, libraries which r the Pressexecis all ed. lay means classesm ea n of circu lating of t h e people had become reader., and when they had come to rea d all that had passed in that House, and all that was said out of doors of public men, being Members of that House or not, the intelligence and the comments of the Press were conveyed almost with the speed of lightning to every quarter of the earth where the English language was canvassed ' spoken or understood. The effect , of all their measures was, that it had and proceedings being openly n.ade the House of Commons alive to all that the p eo p le felt upon any meter that might form a subj ect of political. discussion ; that, then, had worked a real Reform, and all the Reform that was necessary, for it established that sym pathy which should subsist between the people represented and the people by whom they were represented. By the system of petition, which now so generally prevailed, the wants and washes of the people on all subjects were made known to the Legislature. It was true, that by a conve nient fiction, the proceedings of that House were as a sealed book to the people of the empire ; but by another convenient fiction that seal was removed every morning, and the people made acquainted, from one end of the United Kingdom to the other, with every thing that had been said and done in that House the preceding evening. In the times so triumphantly refet red to by the Reformers, the people knew nothing of the proceedings of that House, fur it was thea a gross breach of privilege to rrialie any publication concerning them. The de bates were then given, as they alight be seen in the old vo lumes of the Gentleman's Magazine, reported as they were in the data of Dr. Johnson, as the proceedings of a poli tical club, the names of the Members being concealed under the appellations of IL rtensios, Cato, petronius, Flaccus, and such like. He had now to call the attention of the House to a matter of considerable moment. He believed that in the history of civilized man there was not to be found any system of representation so compl e t e l y popular as that of the Noble Lord's, co-existing with a free press on the one band, and a Monarchy on the other. He believed that there was no instance upon record of a fece Fess being placed in a jitxta-position with a Mo narchy and a system of representation such as that pre. posed by the Noble Lord. Befnre ten years passel away, they might rest assured that the measure of the Noble !f qtreeq to, svophl produce a Shock so decisive, that all the'intruilons of the' country woidd give way before He said, if i , l.rriati—but for himself he had n u apnre 'tension that it ever There was small danger that each a nristare as that could ever receive the r c anetiou of the licitee. An attempt at aue'h an experiment as that had been made by the National Assembly in France.__._ Something of the sort had been attempted in Switzerland ;also, and a wss cow Dipg made in le:ranee. How it mighererininate it wag not for hint to anticipate; but he sincerely hoped, and; indeed, had little tear, that tiny such experiment would ever 'be tried in this country, in 'France it was perfectly well kltoten ; for It was too ob. vious to escape observation that the attempt to produce a purely popular representation had in'errupted the coin:- try in the fairest course of liberty; arts, domestic trade, and foreign emomte,eeee, to which that particular conistrY had ever attitined ; and he eniertainel not time slightest doubt that Were the calamity peepos'eel by the Noble Lord to be inflicted on this land that a ciinilar result would ensue.—/Cheery,). When the Noble Lord, f r oM wh om and froth whn..e Government the present measure pro.. Ceeded, 40 years ago male a proposition in that House for a much more metim rate Reform, he did not conceal from the House that Oct. - eery moderate Reform involved a fun damental change in the Government of the country. What was he not then bound to admit with respect to a ;' . k. , :iorin plan that went, at 'a blow, to weep away one-third of the House of Queen:lona? Were at agreed to the House o f ](gists; before ten years, would have but a nominal T.A existence. lie would ca ll u p on some Right . A . pts- A . stout oppesite, supporters of the. 14e isle. tanning; he would call ti= en thetia to answer the eloquence and rea inning of their, renowned leader, now no more. He said that if the representation of the people was complete and perfect in all parts, nothing could withstand its pe.war and authority. In his (Sir 11. L's) elein:,o, an unreformed House of Leeds would not ter a moment be tolerated by a rCfermed House of 0114111011 S; anti Mr.' Canning more than' once expressed his full conviction that tlae House of Lords could not eoutintee its at present constituted if the :easee - a c iteferin were once carried with reference to the House of Commons. Would a reformed House of Commons endure the interference of a Hause of Lords— would they permit there to interfere with the Civil List— wearki sherd nut be an 'appeal to phYaical force?. Much bean said out of minors resp ec ti ng th e d ura ti on o f pae lieu:cots.' There was very little foundetien for the com plaint on that subjeet, fey rimming the last SOO years it act tally turned out, nitre examination, that only 21 Par liaments sat above three years, and that the average dura tion of all the Parliaments of that period was only tw e e years and eight months. The ballot tan seas open to this objection, that in :, , ,vevy instance it required a pr ev i ous i scrutiny. Finally, t was his persuasion that under our preient happy forM of Government, we enjoyed tenore of public peace and commercial proepeerity than any other country. ts:ir B. SMITH nest addressed the House ; but the • bustle whieti prevailed rendered it extremely difficult to collect his sentiments. We understood the Hon. Member to soy, th 4 tieing anxious to support the true interests of the country, he felt that he could not do less than offer e few observations on this important occasion ; n his opi nion, a necessity for Refoena did exist, and he was perfectly free to ;;ani7ciss the reasons which weighed with him in coming to that decision. In vindicating his own vote A he should, doubtless, be vindicating the votes of many others who viewed the subject as he did. F4reen yea's ago, he should, peelie„ps, have arrived at a different conclusion; Lan the, altered circumstances of the country fully justified a change of opinion. If that change were once admitted, the necessity of Reform must be admitted also. 714 . ? power of the Aristocracy was, he coucei'ed, too great in that House; and he though, in curtailing it to a certain ex teet, they did nothing unjust tower& that body.—(H ear , hear.). He approved of the principle of the Noble Lord's plan, though the whole of the detaile did not meet his wishes. The Hon. B e aropet near him had observed, that the Keposed measure would be injurious to their colonial interests, since it would prevent the colonies from being represented in that House. But he would ask, fir what purpose had the colonies local Legislaturs, V they were - to be represented in that House. In his opinion the repre. sentation wan vitiated, not by the undue influence of the Crown, but by the undue dictation of the Aristocracy. He thought that the plan of the Noble Lord proceeded, how ever, too much On the principle of population, and too little on that of property. The Noble Lord had said, that em e of the great reasGns why the House oughty point, and left to receive thi s measure was, because it etnhrit4 eyo nothing for future deit.iskon ; but 'how could that be', when it wei furnially Laid before Parliament for its serious con sideration ? One great evil of the present system was the preval,nce of bribery and corruption ; and he would ask, why had not the Noble Lord taken more me to Ere7ent bribery and corruption in futtireE 11,e thought that the oath relative to brib e ry and corroptio n u high was trndered to the ejector ' ought efso to be administered to the repre sentatire..—(Hear.) Reserving his right to state his opi nion on the different parts of the measure at some future time, he thought it was proper, .in this early stage, to 4 ;1 , dare that lie was favourable to the principle of t.,e plan. Mr. H. TWISS said be he l d listened torn:profound'at tention to the Lard's analysis of the. new Cunstitn tiuu which Wei now offered to the country—(Hear) —and lee rose to offer some few' observations on the absurdity and injustice . Cf the plan, He felt that he undertook a very difficult task, in rising so soon after the speech of the Noble Lord; and he feared, moreover, that he had selected the worst period that could be fixed on t aeoidst the agita-' Lion and uneasiness that prevailed throughout the House. —(Hear.) Opposed as fie had been for many years to }Noble Lord's views of Parliamentary it mess appeal- evident that the course he was abont to take that night 'did not peoceed frOm a mere desire to disparage a 'oeasure on which the Government had taken their stand, but rested solely on the foundation of principles which were once held by the greater part of his Majesty's Go vernment themselves. A few mouths ago the most radical speculator that ever existed could not have belieied that the day was so near rehert - 41 e altoihld see the Ministers of the cronen proposi4''to remove all the proportions of the Leei•lature, all the land-marks of the Constitution,— caliing on the House to sweep away, be would not say the Charters o: Corporations, but all the Charters of the realm itself.--(Hear, hear.) Ile did not mean to eau tLat iq thus acting they were quit e withoot teree...e4at. .rtheY“Cer. work f tithes tlit, times tainly had a prcce!.ent of c2t.4rit , il :0! atia'Am" 11. The same thing was done ► then as was attempted to be done now, under the colour of t h e l a w. But the cOlillie pursued at that period had been condemned with universal and l as ti ng ek ., o , o b. at i o , as grossly unjust and unconetitetional .-7effec ted.uharo' object which the Ministers Judge J e ff er i esi — t h at object being to 0,. that tray had in vi ew ; was effected `give bYtileadditionalt.,,,sistaneoa and unconstitutional power to the Crown, as it was now sought to confer it on the democracy. But what was done at the revolution? Why, those veleo effected it placed the boroughs and corporatioos on thAr proper footing ; and the decleration sent out Bang Will i am, even be ore his ending In thi s count ry, after re- probating theUnconstitutninal eve of Charles and J a mes, in one brief but most important sentence, that " all tin: boroughs of England shall return again to their ancient prescriptions awl charters." The Convention Parliament of that day framed the Bill of flights; and the preamble of that tell recited " that the Lords spiritual and temporal and the Commons, then assembled at Westminster, were the lawful r e presentatives of the people of England." He hoped that the same sound , ense which preserved the in stitutions of the country in the first Parliament of Wil liam HI., would continue to uphold them in the first Parliament of William IV.—(hear, hear.)—Toe Noble Lord, he contended, had departed from his own principle that all the community should be represented. He (Mr. H. Twiei) would admit that 6? Hoßge had been SIM in . • granting the e l ec ti ve f ranc hi se to large towns, but it had been alio slow in taking away the franchise from any town until, upon a full examination of evidence, ,it appeared that the franchise had been grossly abused ; but what way the course proposed by the Noble Lord ? It was by one sweeping measure to do away with the franchise of a large number of towns, without any inquiry or any proof of guilt whatever. in effect this was to sweep away every alloy of monarchial or aristocratical principle from the pure de mocracy of that House. He would ask, were there any twenty men in that House who did not believe, though it might not be convenient or consistent with their power of being useful members to avow the fact, that the will of the people had already more controul in the Commons than it ' was strictly entitled to, consistently with the nature of our Constitution? He was aware that this influence had gradually crept in by the two Houses becoming Council to the Government in all measures of great policy. He knew that this could not now be altered ; but the fact of its existence to its great extent showed the danger of any measures which would increase the influence of the people through one House. Any attempt to bring back the former system of the power of the Crown in applying its own estates for the purposes of Government, and calling upon its vassals for support in its wars, would, be was aware, justly cover its proposer with the ridicule of every elan ; but there was a vast difference between removing that mixture of the business of the Crown in the councils of the nation, and a change which would give an entire preponderance to one interest in the State. The real danger to he guarded against was, not an increase of the influence of the Crown or the Aristocracy, but the in fluence of the people. The real interests of the people should be gnartiOd tiV4inet the influence of their own paesinee and follies. The Ron, Member then went on to contend that in the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, the interest of nlincett every chute in the cotnnninity was neglected!, except those of land and trade. There were. .he maintained, a variety of interests which required to be, and which were, now represented in the Heuee by manta of the honottehe., These the Noble Lord now pro_ posed to. diefrenchisen r; .d thus left three interests without that nepresentation to whi c h, from their importance, th e y were eptitleil e Some of those boroughs were no doubt under the influence of individual patronage; but that pa tronage was exercised in a manner which gave an inlet to the representation nf these ioteeeste which their import ance demanded. Instead of these, the men who would now Come forward for the boroughs which remained would be men of greet wealth in their vicinity : men of talents . and elaiiity, who now obtained seats for those ho eoughe, would be excluded. His objections to it might be summed up in these three—tiest, the destruction of the Charters of so many Corporations throughout the king dom—next, that through the breach thus tnado would be poured in an overwhelming representation, which would desiroy the remaining int : lt:twee of the Crown and lastly, that it wotild deeevey the representation of those impel - - teat iotereete to which be hal alluded, He had no objec tion to any increase of the eeneesentation of great trading interests, or to Opee lntereets which might be considered necessary to ettpwort the executive in times of difficulty or danger he would not object to such extensions of the franchise as were proposed in the case of Gremponnd or East Retford, but he could not see the policy of calling to the aid of the country, in welt times, the wisdom of householders whoe s e rent exceeded 10/. 'This Measure w? Id not let in any great interests. It would• pro mote the influence of shopkeepers and country attorneys, The leader of the country club would now be the matt of importawee in his disnict, and his interest and influence would be represented instead - eF those important interests which were now let in. —(Cheers, and some cries of " Oh l") He understood the sneer meant to be con veyed by those cht ere, but he %%Todd not retract what he had said, nor did he mean by it to cast any reflection upon the classes ter width he alluded. They were, no doubt respectable in their way, but they were not the interests which required additional representation in the country. When he alluded to those classes in -this sense, he had the authority of a writer, one of the meet ancient on record, —one whose authority would not be weakened on this subject, when he stated that his work was a part of the Sacred :. - actaptur e s ; and if any sneer was to be thrown out et what he read, he hoped the bletne would attach to him for reading it, and net tts she work itself, The book from which he theeid quote was that of " Ecclesiasticus." After mentioning farmers, and others of that class, lie added, " men who are wise in the work to which they have given ther minds —men, without whom cities could not be inhabited ;" but he added a little after, that t‘they should not lie sought for in the public councils, nor placed in the seat of judgment." Ise contended that the parties whose interests would be represented ander the proposed change, would be those shallow, but dogged politicians, with whom relief from taxation was every thing, and the support of public credit and national faith was nothing —who looked upon rent and tithe as only a useleis ineunilwance. He repeated that he did not object to theee olesses in their proper place, but they were not the persons whom he would choose to aid the coun cils of the country at this moment. Tee Honourable and Learned Gentlennen then went on to contend that the plan would Teat have the effect of saving expense in elec- Oons e as the Noble Lord seemed to think. The increase of the number of electors, they being chiefly of the poorer class, w ou ld increase the temptetion to bribery and eorruptiou fuT it would be seen that where the electors were few as in Evesham, or numerous as in Liverpool, the temptations to bribery would remain as long as th.ey were of the sante class. Bat when half the Constitution had been thus aerrendered, would it cont en t t h e v i o l ent ra f ermers? They h a d av owed that it w ou ld not; and they said that, having got this much, they would at a convenient time come and ask for more. He did not blame Ministere far this ; but he did blame them for holding out enpeotations of Reform which they must know could nut be realized. A some intrigue in some warta of - th e country to ta k e advan tagem fter of al the otion of our great dom est i c or foreign interests it would l, then, lw : nl t seta t s it measure - might lee w create a sensation and would create ; but for the pro : du nothing, or worse than nothing. It was said some time ago the peopledid not desire this—that they were in different about it—that they Inok e d onjy , to relief from taxation ; but all attempts auth relief were now ex haustedretrenchment. by a I rli4iorY which had Caine into oiliest on the change? He beli eve d much of it was pro-, be the f ee ling of the people so me t i me ago. What, then, d c l a u u c 6 d y i b the the fear of the exertion of the physical power of the people, which had lately given such A an impulse to affairs in France. Such a feelin g - could, he hoped, affect on l y a very few ; nnd Tit in Fraoce, where that chariee had been In;lce be believed th ere was now a great re action. It was now felt thet m os t erroneous calculations h a w ould ask any man of common sense, was there. h a d n i ,, en Made upon popular stre ngt h . But leaving that point, any para ll e l in the c i rcumstances of F rance then. and. England at this moment? Ile contended there was nut any thing which could possibly call foeth a e t m li av move . ment here. If, however, any - one should be die and to France, let him censider what Fran ce by the change. If it s h ou ld be said that dis tress had engender Lh engendered revolutio n i n France anti other countries, let e en:look at th e con di t i on o f t h ose countries Whereit had taken place , and they would find that revo lutiongained. of in its tura begot distress, and of a touch worse Ot : rac t e r than that which it was sought to get red of. If it could ha shown that this measure would 4a,ve. the effect of relieving the existing (ligres, and its postponement wou id aggravate tij evits o f country, he would admit t h e ; the we was' something in that argutnent. But the : n d , ° : P : r h tl i ll ve gt e r r- d e was f : o Aoii. 'Gentlemen opposite knew that no change in the Constitution would afford them the means of retrencliiro the expenditure of the country to any consitler ‘ al:e tent. The financial measure of the CoyernMent must have convinced every otos Cele relief } front taxation was hoFeless. 4itke•W* believed that it was the 10..811.4 the. • liiliouable Gentlemen to effect reduc . tissue 'and alleviate distress ; but was their object Rely to be obtained by a measure of popular Reform ?,- e - The speech of the Noble Loid delivered in 141,.tea afforded a reply to that question. Tito 'Lei then stated, Is , that he did oet preo..cul tot say that Reform would make roar chief hardens, A fondness for mt• was not the fault l e -s 4 to war, which was the cause of of a'.Krehical but of a popular Government."aide an m t o h t e her co a n u d tl u it e t t ri az ,t di a t ri licae,tryas , who planted the trieccloered d g in the aientiner of . 18k1 . 0., and were. reeving it for War' the. spripg of 183), 'to'hiterfere • • 'A triumph reig n Time of the prin , (eieor, 64 0' . What obliged the Nt,ble Lord (Palmerston) Reform. If this were the true state of the case, be trusted th a t H on. Members would not be induced by the excited anti irritated state of the public mind to yield their glaixed - at was so near as the N o bl e own well-con s id ere d opin i ons with respect to a matte r' o f so mu c h i mportance.—(Hear, hear. ) T 4 did' not agree with the N o bl e L ord in thinking. that the danger which he had so obscurely Lord's ip;ag:pation h a d p i c t ure d. The Reformers, who menaced revolution if Reform should be refused, would any tisk for it.—(llear, bear.) It was, indeed, nothing hardly thi n k s h e proposed measure good enough to rub but a mere evasion of their claims. But: he was happy to siy, that lie had better security thantheir moderation . for the pr eserv a tion of order.' The widely-spread, in dustry of the country, the stored-up s a ving s eve n. o f th e latter . order s , th e whole dividends e ve n o f th e p u bli c s t oc k s , were solid grounds foe confidence in the security of the n r i n g ye y a c t u tp : h m he • • • 1 Institutions of the cottetry.—.(llear, Insar.)...lli the special blessing of Providence, the burdens of the country i s fiT ) e il ia i ll r f ir ir e' c l n y .nB— d u :e ir ifi b .a n r{ e formed some sort of security for the welfare of the country. ereh h me e ufaa n rirne t i. e:r lL oi : fi e , dr i Tt g ii ivis l : i seie t ill „ ,fteg: w .s,e( r)snaph.:li people l e : fol: i nalt t sh,btteeoea n u But s r u e, l t i n r if g e their welfare—if we decide on this gent question, not according to experience and wisdom, but were led away by the cry of the day—then we should let in danger—then we should let in revolution, of which the Noble Lord had spoken—by teaching the people that their will would alone direct the course of the Legislature.—(Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER differed from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, and who thought that great dangers were to be ap prehended from the adoption of the pleasure proposed by his Hon. Friend. The Hun. and Learned Gentleman had stated that those dangers were unnecessary to be incurred, because the cell for, Reform was quite temporary, and pro duced by agitation. He (the Chancellor of. the Exche quer) did not think that there was at present any symptom pressed, n d a L o ree ogafidicgta revolution e t , o . or any appearance of agitation in the count r y. Nev er had so little pains been taken to get up public meetings on any subject as had been the case with respect to the greet ques tion of Parliamentary Reform. —(Hear.)—The Hon. awl Learned Gentleman had described time excessive evils which result from revolutions, and had stated that those evils had been felt by France and by Belgium, in the in terruption which their trade had experienced. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) agreed that great misery accompanied revolution ; and be thought it was the duty of Government to take such steps a s wou ld remove a n cause for discontent,aa(Hear, hear.)—Now what were the steps which Government bad taken ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said that the complaints of the people respecting the mode in which the Members of that House were elected were groundless. If these complaints were groundless, then the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was right iu describing theta as temporary; but if they were well-founded, it became necessary to introduce some meastere to remove them. The grounds of complaint were these :—the nomination-boroughs, and the great ex pense of elections. Now he would ask, could any man suceeed in convincing the people that it was a beneficial thing to have nomination boroughs._(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. and Iscaroed Gentleman hail observed, that it was by the 'hems of nomination boroughs that men of ability nest obtained seats in Parliament. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) admitted that to a certain extent they were advantageous ; but lie contended that the disad vantages of the system.counter-balenced the advantages of the system. The s 3 stem of nomination-boroughs put it in the power of persons of large property to dictate to the Ministers of the day.—(Hear, hear. )—This dictation was such as mutt constantly interfere with the good Govern anent of the country.—(Hear, hear.)--.This was an evil which, in his opinion, counterbalanced, and more than i counterbalanced, the advantages of the system which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had so much praised. It wits eendeuletedly trite, as the Hon. and Learned Gentle. man hail stated, that many able men had come into Par liament as Members for those nomination-boroughs; but it did not therefore follow that those men would not have come into Parliament if those nomination-boroughs - bad not been in existence.—(Hear.)—The next complaint of the people referred to the expenses of the elections. Whence did these expenses arise? In the first place, from the distance which the voter. had to travel to give his vote, and, secondly, from the elective franchise being placed in the hands of persons of no property, and who were liable to be corrupted and bribed. The proposition to which Government had pledged themselves was to bring forward a full and efficient Reform ; and that pledge they eudea voured to redeem, by annihilating the evils of nomination boroughs, and diminishing the temptation to corruption by !sh-sing the franchise in the hands of the middle claases.— (Hear, hear. )—Another Hon. and Learned Gentleman had denounced this as a step to revolution. Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman then mean to say, that the middle classes of the country were rliecontented with the present form of Government?—(Hear, hear.)—The present form of Government was prized by the middle classes.— ( Hear. )—He meant the form of Government, of King,Lord a and Commons,—not a House of Commons constituted partly by nomination, and partly by purchase of seats.— He dit mean to say that a houee so constituted was popular,—(Cheers.) Th e peop l e of this country, though approving of a mixed Monarchy, did object to the system of representation which prevailed. Perceiving that that was the feeling of the middle classes, and feeling confident that they had no wish for a change in the form of Govern ment, or any desire. for a revolution, his Majesty's Ministers hail thought it their duty to propose the present pleasure, being satisfied that the House might safely entertain it, as it would place the election of members for the House of Commons in the hands of the middle classes.—(Hear.) It were his opinion, that if the middle classes of this or any other country were hostile to the form of Government under which they lived, whatever the state of representa tion might be, that Government would never be safe.-- (Hear, hear.) The Han. and Learned Member had ridi culed the middle cleseee..--(Hear, hear.) Yes, he hid ridiculed all the middle classes of this country ; but the Hoo t Gontleman could not be aware of the extent of in telligence and information possessed by those classes, or he would not have talked of them in the way he had.—(Hear, ' hear.) The middle classes of this country possessed a de gree of intelligence which fully qualified them to return members to the House of Commons, whose honesty, inte ' grity, and ability, would enable them to discharge their duties to the benefit of the country.—(Hear.) The Hun. Member for Oxford had argued against taking population as a test for representation. He (the Chancellor of the ! Exchequer) proposed to take population as a test, for towns to return Members ; but lie took property and not popu lation as the basis of the franchise.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who spoke last bad said something about the seizing of the charters by James 11. : and com pared that circumstance with the proposed alteration for the benefit of the popular branch of the legislature. The Hon. Gentleman had truly observed, that our ancestors of the revolution had considered that Act of King James a most gross violation of the Constitution ; and they had so considered it, because it was intended to be subversive of , the liberties of the country, and to destroy every thing that was valuable in the institutions of the land. But the objsct of his Majesty's Government was, on the contrary, to este- Wish the freedom of election, and make the popular branch of the legislature a real representation of the people. He . confessed himself one of those ,p apular theorists, who thought that the House of Commons ought to be the genuine re presentation of the people.—( Cheers.) That was the con stitution of the country. Hon. Gentlemen might go back and frail periods in bat barous times, when great outrages were committed by the Crown against the privileges ofthat House, yet it hail always been held to be the constitutional doctrine,. that tlat Reuse of Commons ought to be the representation of the people of England.—(lleer.) - The Hon s Baroret ' (Sir It Inglis) had gone back to the time when, as ho said, the House was the perfect representetion. of the people,— namely, at the latter period of Charles L'a reign ; but at that perierl the Hous: teas acting under the dictation of Military powho, onsi all persons who opposed that dictation were expelled.—(dear.) The lion. and Learned Gentle ri,tax, (Mr. Twiss) had said that the proposed teeatore of Reform would give no satisfaction to the coutttey. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was reedy tteadmit that there might be some among the livi9rt . r„;ra Whom it would act satisfy. But they were but 0, small minority of the class which was calling 44; Reform ; and the Hon. and Learned Genticooata %vast grossly mistaken if he supposed that it was opt, the.ireet body of the middle I lasses who were. crying "out for Reform.—(Hear.) He was coneiressal that the i middle classes would be satisfied with. the proposition.— The Hort. and Learned Geoalemaa was quite mistaken in supposing that the proposed measure was not intended to be a flea's itettletnent of the question. As . far as he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was conceeoed, Fie did . propose it as a final settlement. l e t might be supposed that his own opinion would Lave been favour.. stile to a somewhat different tetensure ; but lie thought the best way to succeed in what, he had : long aimed at as the great obieet ,f his t politiCal life, was to sacrifice some of hie men apirtiOns..(dleat, henr.) Having, therefore, united. with his culleznenats and agreed upon the measure, t re . f e le . himself pledged to support it, and not to go beyopd it., He altattglit that great advantage would be seemed to the country by the adoption of the proposition ; and that the measure would he sufficient to njle that House, as it ought to be, under tire influence oi hie people of England. —(Hear, hear.) It hivl never been his habit tit look to theory, but ette!..t . 4 'to practice; and his wish was to re medy peeetical evils. He saw those peuitieal evils in the oresent system ; and unless the House of Commons were 'placed under the influence of the country, those evils coati never be avoided.--(Hear, heat.) He thought that.the present proposition would have the effect of giving to the people that influence ever the House which they ought to 'have, and whiCh be wished to give them.—(Heir, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel, we be lieve) cheered him, in disepproaation of the sentiment which he had expressed;, but he certa;nly was of opinion. that the fictuse,of Coinmons should be under the influence • not of the Aristocracy, Government,, nor the Crown, but t ender that of the great body of intelligent and respectable classes of the country,—the large majority of the people coming under thin distinction.—(Cheers.) ' . Mr. H. .TWISS denied having - spoken of the middle I el..sees of the country with ridicule. He was in the re cellection of the House whether he did not, though inter rupted in the middle of the sentence which he was speak. jug, guard himself against any possible slip which that interruption might have occasioned, by saying that he did not mean to disparage the middle classes. He certainly d d think that there were objections to admitting them to the enjoyment of the elective franchise on the large scale that was proposed, not because they were not respectable or well qualified to perform their accustomed duties; but because there were to be found among them a class of po liticians mos t d angerous to the country. Lerd GOWER said, that it was extremely difficult for t'noe who stood up in defence of the established instate . tions cif the. country, to say any thing new upon the sub iret ; while it was very easy for those who attacked the existing system to vary the fettle of that attack, and to draw on the store of their fancy for fresh arguments. It was urr'er this disadvantage that he felt he was now ad dressing the Mouse. But however unable he might be to make any new statements in favour of the existing forms of the Constitution, he was sure lie should never fall into such a gross error as to attribute, notwithstanding the proud situation this country held in the rank of na tions, and the great prosperity in commerce which she bad exp-rienc,d under the present system, the prevailing distress to the want of a due representation of the people. lie was sorry to see the Government telling the people [hat their evils were owing to the present form of Govern ment, and that no alleviation of those evils could be (xe pected, unless a change in the . form of Government was effected. They ivere !ending themselves to delusions, cvliicle like ail delusions of hope, would only end in dis appointment and despair. His object in rising was to call the attention of the Noble Lord opposite to a subject re lating to that part of the empire with which he (Lord Gower) was more immediately connected, and his con. nexion with which was his best excuse for troublin. the House. In a recent num b er of the Edinburgh Re view.. the writer compared the condition of Scotland tend England on a contested election, and he drew a picture, of Scotland, in which there were strange topics of sorrow end hurni liaeion. The representatives of that country should do their duty in Parliament, for if they did not, representation was a farce, or the picture of the Edinburgh Review was false. To speculative Reform he (Lord G.) objected; and lie called upon the House to consider the subject maturely befere it adopted such a system of Reform. He did not believe that the operation' of the representative system of Scot-- land wan genes - ally understood even •in that House-- ( Hear.) Seeing the effects of that system, he thought the !loiter: would be induced to proceed cautiously ir e adopt ing the projected scale of Reform, because there was a time when the priests of Scotland were politicians. He should be reluctant to introduce einougst a clergy who were now, and who had been since the time to which he alluded, too dell, in their present operation, for the present and future generations—(Hear) —any temptations to renew political interference—(Neer.) No politician, no candidate, since that time, had had to complain of that interference; the clergy proceeded to their task steadily, and attended to no other business but their own. The Noble Lord stated that there had been a time in their recollection when the subject now before the House did not excite that interest which had assembled so many to-night. How did this happen? Was.it from the influence of reason or of argu ment, or from any other cause, that the intense enciternent" respecting this question bad arisen ?—(Hear.) • lie (Lord Gower) believed he was inclined to conjectur e , that since the tune when, seated upon the oppoioto 'bench, he had been lectured on the subject of Reforro, a considerable re action had taken place ; and he twee not surprised that amongst the respectable, the ite:ellectual classes, compre hending in that number a large portion of the mid dling classes,—whom the Nehe Lord (Althorp) I. d defended from an attack which had not been inteteied —(Hear) s q p , c ,t h ma r , L . .-a w et h io ic n h h h ai a l d tak ta en ke p n la p e l e Le ( l iu n t tl o , e f result seemed to be to th e a d van t ige o f t h e ant i - refermere. d —d f i , s o ((' r ui s iss , eai i o n rn) the minor fry o f p aesp hl ets , h e t h ought that the Among the number, he might elude to one writren by a Member of that House, whirls had made as great an im pression, and had been as much read as any political work, and that Hon. Baronet had been returned her a close ho_ rough. The Node Lord referred, we believe, to Sir John Walsh. He (Lord Gower) remembered what had been said by Mr: Pitt, Mr. Windham, and Mr. Cennitig he called to mind the voice of the latter, when he de- • fended the Constitution from inroad, which he had left as he found it. These were great authorities; there wire none in that House who could take up their mantle, and they deemed it no disgrace to defend this cause, and never assumed a bolder attitude than when they placed them selves between the people and the plague of Reform—. (Hear.)—Perhaps they might have been mistaken ; be (Lord Gower) might he so too ; they thought that there was a sufficient security for liberty in the House as 4 svit i constituted, without the risk of universal ruin which might be incurred by departing from it. They might be excused if they were deceived. They had F,.ui practical proof of the risk. Mr. Burke had le-en driven from a just course of legislat . an—a n d why ?--the answer will occur to every Irish Member —becaus e he wish e d to knit together this country and that of hat birth. He was os tracised from Bristol, and forced to take refuge in a close borough ; and although the portal might be compa:. ratively low, a man of honour end integrity might pass it without stooping.—(Hear.)—With respect to the, ~ h servation of the Noble Lord (Althorp) that there was a dread of the influence of Members of Parliament over the Ministers of the Crown, he (Lord Gower) was not sur prised that, even in so short a time, the Noble Lord had found that difficulties attended that seat which were net known by those who only sat on that (the Opposition) side of the House. He had probably discovered that it was. more difficult to legislate in the place where he now sat, than to speak from the place where he (Lord Gower) pre sumed to address the House, and that a sense of those dif ficulties had dictated to the Noble Lord his line of argu ment. Rut there might be independent Members, even for boroughs, able and willing to oppese any measure detri mental to the interests of the country.—(Hear.) He (Lord Gower) looked at the prospect which this messere pre sented as one of risk and doubt. The Noble Lord said, that the present Attorney-General had been returned on a popular representation, He (Lard Gower) was not sur prised that snob a person, who ranked so deservedly high, and to whom it had happened to be professionally engaged on a most popular question, should have been so retureed. In discussions out of the House, it had been imputed to those who opposed Reform that they intended to excite alarm. He (Lord Gower) did not fear the consequence; of any in vestigation on this. pint. He was not one of these who could bear to see the tri-colour flag in the streets. In France lie paid it every respect, he wished it success, and p eyed that it might continue to be the guide to constitu tional, iiherty. But when that flag was exhibited in this country, he could not but bear in mind that 800,000 men lead risen in arms to arrest tke mischief which that flag would have dispersed in the country, Upon these grounds, and other haportant points remained, he saw no reason to change the opinion be had. always entertained on the question of Reform. Thera was a eircumstaner o hewever, too personal to himself to permit him to trouble the These with, but which made the course he took a source of pain to hire. Though he might be open to the charge of opposing what were called liberal measures, and ; might he treated with sarcastic reflections or contemptuous silence, and assailed out of the House by the press, he defied arty charge against him of corruption or had rim tivP, from which he was perfectly free ; anti he hoped that the House would take it upon his perional pledge, that if he hail studied his own comfort and wished to avoid pain and anxiety, be would not have taken the course he bad done tonight. There was only one more topic to which, he would allude. The Noble Lord bad pressed thne consideration that this measure heti emanated from the Ministers of the Crown. He (]cord Gower) , oetlinitted that if this measure was to he carried in the country, it ought to be brought forward by the Govern ment. So far he agreed with the Noble Lord ; but be could not go farther, and defer to the authority of Mi nisters. They had nut yet produced or persevered in eny measures which vi:Atld justify him in placin ; that degree of trust in them which ought to require the rel;nqnish ment of his opinion, and his deference to authorities which st:li retained an influence over him. Therefore, he could only HUME rose amidst cries of " Adj our n , " to move - illy concede hear.)tle t Noble Lerd'a measure r es p ect f u l atten tion..—(dear,the adjournment or the debate till to-morrow (this day). Sir R. P.FE.L wished to ask o question of tire N.itile - Lord, in order to obviate m isapprehension. lie wished to ask whether it was ;art of the Noble Lord's ,lan to dis frenchise inhabitants. now payi ng scot an d lot, and tutitl4l:l -to vwe. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that he intended to revi , ct -exiting spalification s ; but on. the death or exp;nttion 11;e. principktef the. measure would cum into operation. The motion of adjournment was then carried. QCONNELL presented a petition from Alexander Jacobs„ the individual now confined in Newgate toor a.. breech of privilege, expressive of contr . tion forlis offence, which he stated was moreover Vie rouit of mom:Ara:yr exci*etnent. The Hon. Member ;rave notice that he s'int&l move that the petitioner be di.eharg,l. Thea f second in t e im Mutinyetmo to-morrow. Bill was readsfir , t r 7 tn • / . e read Adjourned at Hal:l.pi,t Twelve o'clock.