The Sun. — London, England, 1834-03-07 00:00:00

IRISH TITHE COMMUTATION BILL. (From the Times.) [The following analysis of this bill bas been fur nished by a very able correspondent.] Upon a perusal of Mr. Littleton's Irish Tithe Bill, we find that the arrangement divides itself into two great heads, the first providing for the pay ment of the titheowners during such period as the land -tax, established in lieu of the compositions for tithes, may be unredeemed and collected by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests; and the se cond regulating the manner in which this land-tax is to be redeemed, and the proceeds arising from such redemption applied to the benefit of the clergy and impropriators. It appears that, until the land-tax shall be redeemed, the titheowners will receive the amount of their present incomes, subject to such deduction as may be found just in each individual case, with reference to the actual costs, and expenses, and losses on collection to which this species of property may have been sub ject on an average of ten years " anterior " to the commencement of the late generalresistance in 1831. The Crown will meanwhile levy the whole amount, and the surplus beyond the sums payable to the tithe owners will be applied to defray the expenses of carry ing the measure into execution. So soon as the redemption shall be effected, the redemption moneys will be applicable to the purchase of land, and in vested meantime, as the deposits of the Savings Banks, by the Commissioners for Reduction of the National Debt, in Government Securities, yielding an interest of 21d. per cent. per diem. The amount of the redemption money is to be fixed with refe rence to the value of land in each county. It will be borne in mind that the whole of the tithe of Ire land has been compounded, so that the amount is as certained, and all such contest as may arise in England with regard to the amount of the tithe, or its just pro portion to the rent, is excluded. The tithe in Ir cloud is now a certain definite sum charged up on each indi vidual holding, and the land-tax substituted by Mr. Littleton's bill is of equal amount, differing from the composition for tithes abolished by this bill, only in the circumstance of its being payable to the Crown instead of the parson or impropriator. It is clear that an annual payment of this kind, charged upon land, must bear a certain proportion to the value of that land; and as it would be obviously impossible to fix any specific and stable value on such a property as tithes, no other criterion exists for determining the rate at which they ought to be purchased or redeemed, than may be obtained by reference to the value of the land. But tithes can not, under any circumstances, be deemed to be of equal value with land, the political importance, and other incidents belonging to landed property, con ferring upon it/ value superior to that of any income in money, however well secured. Mr. Littleton assumes that this difference may be fairly computed at one-fifth, or that an annual income of 1001. per annum in tithe is equivalent to an annual income of about 801. in land. On this assumption tithe in Ireland is worth four-fifths of the same number of years' purchase as land; and it is therefore proposed to fix the redemption money at four-fifths of the average number of years' purchase at which land has been commonly sold in each county, the value of land varying so much in Ireland (from 28 to 18 years' purchase), that any general rate of re demption would work the greatest inequality and injustice. The effect of this arrangement is,that for every 100/. of tithe which each titheowner now pos sesses, he will have land yielding an annual income of 80/. This income will be enjoyed without any deductions whatsoever, the deductions to which the payments to be made in the first instance, while the tax is in the collection of the crown, being no longer applicable when that tax is redeemed. The smallest consideration will show that if land can be obtained in sufficient quantity for the desired in. vestments, the titheowner cannot by possibility sustain any greatet loss than this twenty per cent., which constitutes the difference between 100/. and 80/. He is to have for his tithe a sum equal to four-fifths of the sum for which land yielding an annual income equal to the amount of the tithe might be bought. That four-fifths invested in land on the same terms will necessa rily purchase a quantity of land yielding annual profits equal to four-fifths of the tithe. But it might be doubted if land could be obtained in sufficient quantity t,o effect this investment; and with a view to meet that difficulty, provisions enabling otherwise incapacitated persons, or persons having qualified estates, or infirm titles, to sell for the purpose of such investments, are supplied by the bill, so that a vast quantity of land, from which , ordinary purchasers are shut out, will be rendered , available. Of the effect of these provisions convey ancers can best appreciate the importance. It is also proposed, that in order to afford time for these investments, and to guard mean time against any diminution of the titheowner's income beyond this sum of 20 per cent., every person redeeming with money shall, in addition to the redemption-money, pay such an additional sum as may be necessary, together with the interest of 21c1., yielded by the redemption moneys, in the hands of the commis sioners for the reduction of the National Debt, to , make up four-fifths of the amount of the tithe for two years; during which period it is presumed land may, with ordinary diligence, be obtained. The great advantage afforded by this plan to the tithe owners cannot be questioned by any candid person. The Government first interferes to rescue their pro perty from the annihilation with which it is now threatened, and having conferred a value upon it, offers it for redemption or sale on terms which, while they must be considered liberal to the land owner, will yet afford the means of securing the clergy in the possession of an income less only, in the worst cases, by a per centage which, in the state of tithe property for many years past, would not have sufficed to cover the expenses of the collection. We have not at all referred to the change in the land tax which is to take place in respect of so much as may be unredeemed on the Ist November, 1839. That is entirely a matter between the Crown and the landowners, and is simply that the portion of land tax unredeemed shall become pay able by the owner of the first estate of inheritance, or other equivalent interest in the Lind, under the name of a rent charge, which in that shape will be redeemable by the owner of the land, or saleable like quit rents in the market. As respects the landowners, we have said that the arrangement is liberal. However valueless or unmarketable tithe may now be, it i s y e t an ex i st i ng and a prior charge upon the land, which the land lords cannot suppose they will be allowed to appro priate to themselves. Mr. Littleton's plan will, however, enable them to exonerate their estates from the burden by the payment of such a sum as may be necessary to produce an annual income of four-fifths the amount of that charge, so that they will gain a clear bonus of 20 per cent., this bonus having been formerly lost both to landlord and tithe ooner, and expended in the payment of lawyers, bailiffs, and tithe proctors. Nor wiff the most em barrassed landowner be without the means of find ing the money with which to redeem the tithe. 'The bil enables him for that purpose to create a s . nortgage, having priority ov er a ll ot h er c h arges an d urcumbrances—a priority which the tithe now has, and which nobody can therefore object to allow to the charge created for the purpose of redeeming it. SPEAKERS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.— Yesterday a curious circumstance happened in the Hou se of Lords. Though three Speakers were appointed by COmmission at the commencement of the present session— namely, the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of Shaftesbury, and Lord Wynford, not one of them was in attendance when the House assembled. In that emergency the Duke of Speaker pro tem., and accord- Richmond was appointed ingly occupied the Woolsack during their Lordsl.ips'sittin g . The ex-Ley of Algiers, describing the indo mitable hatred between the , Algerines and the Tunisians, said, at Paris, in 1531, that if a native of each place were to be boiled together in a caldron, and suffered to cool, they would immediately separate. IMPERIAL PARLIAIIENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Milten6. The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the wool sack shortly after five o'clock. . Mr. Tomlines from the Treasury, and Mr. Preston from the East India House, presented papers. Lord WYNFORD presented petitions from the inhabitants of Mastertop, and several other places in tle counties of Wilts and Somerset, praying their lordships to protect the established church. The petitioners hoped that their lordships would not suffer an institution founded, as they believed, upon the Bible, to be uprooted, but would take care that it should descend to their successors with the same purity as it had been handed down to them by their ancestors. OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH. Lord WYNFORD stated, that a few evenings ago a noble ft iend of bis (Lord Konyon) had given notice of his (Lord Wynford'b) intention to move for leave to bring in a bi►l for the better observance of the Sabbath. As, however, be understood it was intended to bring forward a measure upon tie .subject, he should wait until that measure was introduced before he made his motion. He therefote would for the present withdraw it. COUNTY RATES. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from the ratepayers of Ardington, in the county of Northamp ton, complaining of the unequal manner in which the county rates were levied. The grievance was felt greatly by the agricultural interest, and the noble duke, therefore, trusted that in any general turnpike bill which was brought in the grievance would be abated, one of the great objections of the petitioners being the inequality of the rate, relative to the repairs of turnpike roads. Lord POLTIMORE presented a petition from the royal borough of Dumfries, praying for an alteration in the system of church patronage in Scotland. Lord PAGET presented a petition from Leominster, praying for the removal of the disabilities under which the Dissenters laboured. The noble lord also presented a petition from Bettumaris, for the better observance of the Sabbath. Lord SOUTHAMPTON presented a petition from Southampton against the dissolution of the connection be tween church and state. Lord LYTTLETON presented petitions from the dis senter,' of Oswestry and Redditch for the removal of their disabilities. TEA TRADE, Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved for certain returns relative to the tea trade, which were agreed to. TIT HE SYSTEM. The NOSLE LORD, seeing the noble earl at the head of his Majesty's government in his place, wished to know at what period the house might expect that his Majesty's ministers would be prepared to lay before parliament their intended measures relative to the composition and commutation of tithes. Earl GREY observed that a bill had been prepared which had to undergo certain formula, but he was in hopes that it would be ;aid before the house at an early period. Lord ELLENBOROUGH would suggest for the con sideraticn of the noble earl, the expediency of making t commutation of church rates a pert of his plan. Eail GREY observed that that subject had not been overlooked. • The Duke of NORFOLK presented a petition from the dissenters of Burnham-park, praying for the removal of their disabilities. The noble duke would take that Opportunity of stating, that with reference to an esta blished religion, he thought:that it was essential to all states, provided that religion and that church did not exclude whets, on account of their own tenets, from civil and re ligious rights.—(Hear, hear.) Upon that principle, and considering the established church in this country as the religion of the majority of the empire, be should give it his most cordial support, though he differed from its doctrines upon many points.—(Hear, hear.) As a peer of Parliament, he considered that he had an undoubted right to give his vote upon points regarding the establi,L•nment, such as the dispensa tion of benefices, bishoprics, and other matters of that nature connected with the church. In the course of the last session, a right rev. prelate bad expressed an opinion against that right. He (the Duke of N.) differed with hins upon that point, and be trusted that he had the sanction of the house in what he stated.—(Hear.) With respect to anything touching upon the doctrines of the church of England, anything relating to its liturgy, he considered himself not at. liberty to give any vote, but with that reservation, he having been admitted to all the civil rights of a peer and a citizen, he contended that he bad a right to vote on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Earl CAWDOR presented several petitions from the Protestant Dissenters of Carmarthen, praying for relief from their disabilities. THE ESTABLISHED CHURCH. Lord DELAWARE, in presenting a petition from the lay inhabitants of Wisheach, praying for protection of the established church, observed that the signs of the times were such that it could not be a matter of surprise that great jealously had been excited in the breasts of the adherents of the church of England at the conces sions that were about to be made by the bill which had keen introduced by the noble paymaster of the forces to a body that had gone the length of denouncing and asking for the suppression of the church establishment.—(Hear.) He would take upon himself to say that if his Majesty's ministers supported the established church against the attacks of its enemies, they would receive, from the one end of the country to the other, support beyond their most sanguine expectations. If, however, they pursued a contrary course, they could not expect, and would not receive, the least support. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE preserved a petition from the independent dissenters of Salisbury, praying for a removal of the grievances which affected them. Lord WYNFORD brought in a bill for the assimilation of the practice in the courts of law in Ireland and England, and to facilitate the recovery of judgments obtained in one country in the other. He instanced a case which, he said, was very well known to the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, in which a judgment for 30,0001. bad been obtained against a party in Ireland ; be then came to this country, where the judgment was affirmed, but by that time the party was in Fiance. A considerable expense was gone to in that country in order to enforce the judgment—(Hear, hear)-- but by the time that proctss htd been gone through he was again in another country, and so on the thing might go for an unlimited time. It was to put an end to such abuse of the law that he introduced that bill. It would also have the great object in view of putting an end to the great delay occasioned by the present sys tem. lie move! that it he read a first time. The LORD CHANCELLOR acknowledged that great delay and expense were engendered by the law as it at pre sent stood, and willingly acceded that some legislation was necessary upon the subject. He would take the earliest op. portunity of looking into the details of the bill, and would give it his most earnest attention. The bill was then read a first time, and was ordered to be read a second time on Monday. On the motion of Viscount MELBOURNE, an ad dress was ordered to be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would order a return of the number of criminals that had been convicted in England and Wales during the year 1833.—T0 be laid upon the table. The Bishop of BATE! and WELLS presented a peti • tion from Bath for the better observance of the Sabbath Dry ; also one from a place in the county of Somerset, in favour 'of the establishment as it stood in relation to the state. The Earl of DURHAM presented a petition from the parish of S , . Botolph, Bishopegate, agreed to at a meeting of the vestry in December, and signed by three hundred and sixty inhabitants, all of whom inhabited houses above 201., which stated that they were zealously attached to the church, yet they felt it a great grievance to be so severely taxed for the support of the bietarchy ; that they were oppressed by the unien of church and state, and the heavy burden of tithes, especially by a local act of 1823, which gave the rector paver of levying upon 30 of the parishioners for the full sum of 2,5001., which had been fixed upon as his income from the parish. They prayed the house would grant them relief in all those matters, but more especially by tl,e repeal of the local act. _ The Bishop of LONDON said, that having had a local connection with the parish in question, and having a knowledge of the facts alluded to, he trusted the house would allow him to trespass upon their attention for a very few minutes, that he might have an op portunity of saying a few words upon one of the most extraordinary petitions that had ever toine before that house.—(Hear.) Without wishing to say anything haish of his o:d p trishionets, he must say that they showed great ignorance in the manner in which they used the word " hierarchy." Taey did not, or he was very much mistaken, contribute one single farthing towards the support of the hierarchy of the church. The citizens had been in the habit of paying at Easter a sum amounting to 3s. 6d. in the pound on the rack rent. That gave die to great confusion, and some tumults were the consequence. Commissioners, consisting of the great officers of state and others, were appointed to inquire into and settle the matter. They repot ted, and the matter was settled by the citizens agreeing in future to pay • two shillings and ninepence per pound in place of 3s. 6d. In 1820 the then rector took steps to increase the in come of the living, which was then very small—the tithe never being above 10d., certainly not Is,, in place of 2s. 9d., which by law was exigible. That gave rise to great discontent. When be (the Bishop of London) was appointed to the living, he followed the same course, and never drew more than Is. per pound ; but the inhabitants expressed very considerable apprehension of what his successors might do, and wished that there might be an income fixed by Act of Parliament. His income then was 2,3001., and considering his dormant claims, be thought he had not been bard when he fixed it at 2,5001., 3001. to be allowed for the pay ment of a minister of a new church to be built in the pa rish.—(Hear.) The drawing up of that act, which was the local one complained of, was left to the parishioners themselves, and they it was who intro duced that necessary clause by which the income was secured. How then they now complained so bitterly he was at a loss to conceive. The building of that new church did not cost the parishioners a farthing, it having been entirely built from funds supplied by the commissioners for building new churches. Teat church also was absolutely necessary, for though the parish contained 9,000 inhabitantQ, the old church could only contain 1,200. The parish, by the act in question, was now secured from being called upon to pay more than the specified sum, in place of a sum of seven thousand pounds, which would be the amount if the lawful amount of 2s. 9d. per pound was insisted on. By the act also it was enacted that there should be a revaluation every 10 years—not in order to raise the income of the rector•, but to keep him at toe same relative value. That would be in two or three years, when, knip the average price of corn for the last '7 or 8 years, it was most likely that it would be reduced from 800/. to 4001. In a few days another petition would be presented frond the same parish, and certainly from not less respectable persons than the present, the prayer of which was of a very different nature. The Earl of DURHAM said, as the rev, prelate bad felt it his duty to say so much on the one side, he felt it due to the parishioners to make a few further remarks. He did not agree with the petitioners in their wish for the separation of church and state. In his opinion it was necessary that every state should afford some religious instruction to the people. 1 Ile did not mean to deny that those who differed from the established church ought not to be empowered to follow their religion without molestation, but at the same time he expressed his dissent to any attempt to sever the union of the church and state. He had thought it right to make these few observations, and while he most po sitively disclaimed any mention whatever to impute to the right rev. prelate, or his predecessor, any unfair conduct in procuring the act which had been passed, he hoped their lordships would think that he had done right in presenting the petition, which prayed for the alteration of such parts of it as they complained of. The noble earl then presented petitions from the Dissenters of Alders-gate street in the city of London ; ft om the Dissenters of Poole; from the Presbyterian congregation at Ledbury, in the West Riding of Yorkshire; from the presbyteries of Spal ding, Merthyr Tidvil (signed by 5,000 persons), Nor thumberland, St. Paul's chapel, Henley in Lancashire, and from the dissenters of Wickham, praying for the re moval of the disabilities under which they laboured. The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented a petition from the city of Chester, praying their lordships to adopt some legislative measure for the better observance of the Sabbath. The house then adjourned till half-past three o'clock to-morrow (this day).• HOUSE OF COMMONS, M r afica 6. The SPEAKER took the chair at twenty minutes past five o'clock. The report of tLe superintending committee of the general penitentiary was brought up. Sir H. PARNELL !,resented two petitions against the corn laws, one of which was from Dunfermline. Mr. STRUTT (we understood) presented a petition from Derby against the corn laws; it was signed by 13,000 persons in the space of three days. Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a committee to inquire into the number of clergymen in the established church in Ireland, with a view to ascertain the real spiritual wants of the professors of that church, and to appropriate its supe►fluous revenues to some other object than the pre sent one.—(Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned member also moved for a return of the number of 101. householders in Carrickfergus, and those who bad obtained their freedom as well as those who voted at the last election; also, for the names, occupations, and residence of all who were en franchised in that town by the Act of the 2d of William the 4th, chap. SS. The hon. and learned gentleman re marked that an inaccuracy occurred last evening in the report of what be said concerning the evidence of Mr. Legg, relative to the Carrickfergus question. No two of the reporters agreed in what each returned on that point; he would not take any further notice of the matter, however. CALL OF THE HOUSE. Mr. SPRING RICE said, that he should move on next Tuesday for a call of the house, as he perceived that the question of the legislative union was to be discussed on the 22d of April. . Mr. O'CONN ELL suggested that it would be more advisable to make that call a few days before the day on which the discussion was to take place. Mr. SPRING RICE thought that would be too in convenient. CORN LAWS. Mr. HUME pr*.sented a petition from the grinders of Sheffield ; also another petition from another part of the country; and likewise one signed by 31,000 of the inha bitants of the metropolis, against the corn laws. The petitions were ordered to lie on the table. Mr. numE stated he had now to crave the indulgence of the house whilst he endeavoured to state the views he entertained on the question of which be had given no ti ce. He felt satisfie l it was unnecessary for him to state the great importance of the question, and which he trusted would now be set at rest. He meant by setting it at rest that those who held undue privileges should no louver continue in that situation, and that the public mind should no longer be agitated in amending that which they considered to be their rights. He was anxious that the question should be discussed without ill-temper or any m anifestation of heated feelings. On former occasions, a good deal of personal and very often unjust feelings had been mani fested, which could only tend to prevent the discharge of honourable members' duties aright. As this was the first time in whi c h thi s que stion had been fairly brought forward, lie was exceedingly desirous, whatever the result might be, that the public should be satisfied of the attention paid to their application. In the fist the house ought to know the:situation of the parties ; those who came forward now on the one hand to ask were the large mass of the population seeking to be relieved from a burden they had lung lived under, and those who opposed were the few who had had the advantage of refusing the claim, and who by law had been enabled to retain their refusal to the present mo t.ent. He was not surprised that such was the case, when he looked back to the composition of an unreformed Parlia ment. Formed, as it -was, by those who had an interest in high prices of corn and large incomes, it might be naturally expected that they and their nominees would take etre that the laws respecting coin should be such as should favour themselves in a special manner. Such had been the result of latter years, and lie complained on the part of the people against the continu ance of this unjust favour, and that monopoly which at present existed. Few subjects had occupied more of the time of the house than this ; there were few which there were more laws passed respecting, than the corn question; lie, therefore, was not one who wished in any way to pretend to say that this subject might have been fairly and properly treated under the ignorance of the principles of political economy. But now that they had obtained reform, and that the people had in that house a considerable portion of individuals to maintain their interests, they might with fairness appeal to this reformed parlia ment to adapt the principle of a free trade in corn. --(Hear, hear.) He wished not to encroach upon the' rights of any one property in the state. lie would not, if it were in his power, do injury either to the agricultu ral or any other interests; he merely meant to show, it possible, the manner in which the agricultural in terests had been befriended at the expense of many other interests._(Hear, hear.) It was, undoubtedly, the duty of that house and the goverinnent, to deal out equal justice to all persons. He put it to any min im partially to consider whether, for the last thirty years, there had teen equal protection to the labouring man and the landed proprietor. No man could be so blinded by his own interests, or prepossessed by his own views as to deny this. He wished to show to the house, before he sat down, what interests under the existing laws the agriculturai possessed over the rest of tin: com munity. He would first remind the noble lord (Al thoi p) of what fell front him a few nights ago in an incidental discussion on the subject of the corn lace in which he (Mr. Hume) entirely concurred, viz., that the best mode f d f permanently improving the coali tion of the agricultural interest was by promoting the welfare of all classes of the community, and Rot by at tending to any particular interest in preference to another, That was the practice which he hoped to see acted upon. If gentlemen would turn their attention to what was the state of the corn laws in this country, they would find that the complaint he was now making was comparatively of a he m av o y de dty, modern date, for from an abstract of a report which he held in hi s h an d o f t h e comm itt ee appointed in 1821, it alp7pe7oarteodtthhe presentat legislation had occasioned the high prices to proprietors ; th a t th ey were caused by various laws, first of next of period relaxation,. A a lt n h d ou t g h h en ce o r f ta b i o n u l n in t!e it s a f t r io o n n s i existed pri o r t o 1815, the house had a right to consider the exi s ti ng i n j ur i ous l aws to have commenced in that year. During the period from the commencement of the French war until 1815, after the termination of the war, the corn laws might be almost said to be inoperative. ' The prices at which the import took place, were above those at which the duty was exacted, and the consequence was that all the markets of the world were open to us. All the statements showed that the power of production was limited, and that with all they could grant, they could not obtain more than was necessary ' for food ; besides which they would give an abun dance of employment to our manufacturing population. It would b e impossible to continue the same system, when so great a change had taken place in the population. Up to that p er i o d t hi s was d ec id e dly an agricultural nation, but from 1770 upwards, any gentleman who looked at the manufacturing districts, which were now the staple com modity of the country, would see that the population had Increased in these districts ; and if they meant to maintain that population in ease and comfort, they must provide for the means of obtaining work for them, and not leave them a burden upon the state. It was said that this po verty arose from the mal-administration of the poor laws ; but whatever it might be attributed to, it was necessary for that house to provide the means of food for them. If they looked to the real cause of distress in the country, he was sure that there would be little difference of opinion among them ; it clearly arose from a want of employment. The employment of labourers upon land was limited, and never could employ the surplus class. The only other mode then by which it was possible to employ the idle, was to encourage the manufactures. They could not en courage the manufactures, unless they allowed them to be exported, in order to pay for the corn which they would receive in return. In a pamphlet on the currency, pub lished a few years since by the First Lord of the Admi ralty, a table was introduced, by which it appeared that, from the year 1710 to 1800, the price of corn, in a dezen different places in Europe (Hear, hear) — bore nearly the same relative increase as it did in England. But the moment the law prohibiting that free trade haul pass e d, th e p r i ce of corn rose in England, remained stationary in other places, and had gone on in creasing. If they looked to the population of the country it would be seen that they had nearly doubled the popula tion since they had ceased to be an exporting country, and that increase appeared to have taken place in the manufacturing towns, and had arisen from manufacturers. The increase in the agricultural districts had been very trifling. In the capitals, the increase bad been remarkable. —in Glasgow in 1770 the papulation was 41,00 0 --in 1821 it was 92,000— an d it was now 202,000, being an increase of 114 p er cen t. I n M an chester a popu lation of 90,000 had increased to 207,000. In Bir mingham it had increased from 73,000 to 240,000. In Leeds from 53,000 to 220,000. In Paisley from 31,000 to 57,000. In Aberdeen, Newcastle, and some others, the increase bad been from 46,000 to '75,000. That great increase had arisen from the manufactures, and there was no way of providing for this increased popu lation but by enabling them to carry on those ma nufactures which the rest of the world were ready to take from them if they took produce in return. He had before shown the enormous increase of imports of cotton wool and sheep wool, by which it would appear that in 1814 there was an import of 80,000,000 lbs. of cotton wool. It had increased so, that in 1830 it amounted to 242,000,000 lbs. ; and he believed that in the last year it amounted to no less than 296,000,000 lbs. If the people bad been reared to carry on by the changes that had taken place that manufacture, how was it pos sible they could be provided:for, unless there were conti nued to them those manufactures in which they had been reared, and the means of paying for their food and sup• port ?—(Hear, bear, hear.) If he looked at indigo— if he looked at all the staples which were of the greatest importance to the country, it would appear that the surplus population had been raised by them, and that nothing now could relieve that population from the difficulties that now pressed upon them but a free trade in corn. Much discussion had taken place as to the amount of agricultural population and manufacturing population. After all the attention he had been able to give to the returns laid before the house with reference to those, and after having availed himself of the beat assistance on the subject he could obtain, be into the that the one class merged so much the other as to render it impossible to draw that line which individuals had attempted to draw. They all afforded only that information which enabled a person to come to a very unsatisfactory result. A gentleman then sitting at the table of the house, and who had had more experience on this point, probably, than on any other, had made out a statement, by which he thought the owners, occupiers, and labourers of land, might be taken at 58 per cent. of the whole populatio n of the country, being mote than one half of the whole. In hie opinion that gentleman had overstated the amount. With an increasing population such as that of England at present, he would ask, how was it to be maintained ? It was by corn imported into those kingdoms, which the la bouring classes ought to consume, being enabled to do so from increased employment rather than by wastefully spending their time in idleness and poverty. A great increase took place in the annual exports of those king doms. Since the year 1817 they increased from nine or ten millions to sixty one millions and a half. A great increase also occurred in the population, say from ten to seventeen per cent. He was sure that three fourths were of the manufacturing class. How then was the surplus po pulation to be supported unless by cheapening food ? Other states had not to labour under the disadvantages of dear food as these kingdoms had. Food was one-third less in the former. He would not take the exaggerated state. ments that had been made concerning the difference be tween the prices of food in France, Belgium, and Ger many and England. He was aware that from forty-five to eighty-five per cent, of a difference was asserted to exist in the price of food. He (Mr. flume) had ma he inquiries on such Farts of the continent in which he had travelled and did not find a great difference ; but he would say that front 30 to 40 per cent. was a fair average at which to rate that difference.—(Hear.) General labour was a great deal cheaper there than in . England, and h ow was it poss ibl e t h at we cou ld en t er into any competition with countries that enjoyed the advantages of cheap food and cheap labour? It was only to be done by equalizing the price of food with the former countries. It was rather satisfactory, however, that wages were rising on the continent, so as nearly I to come to an equality with England. But England was to prepare for (~reign markets, and the disadvantages under which she laboured were raising the price of such com modities as she prepared, and those alone prevented her tram exceeding all other markets in the production of every article at a cheaper rate than any other country. Silk wool and flax were us cheap in England ax in any part of the world. We had no disadvantage there ; the raw pro duce was as easy to be had here as anywhere.—( Hear.) He knew no limit to manufacture, or to the employment of hands. Every surplus hand might be employed, if they ,could only deal with the manufacturers, and thus theywould give an opportunity to those who now lived by charity to provide means for feeding them elves. They should allow the manufacturers of this country to be reduced to the same scale as those of the continent. He would state what took place in 1815, when the Corn Law Act was passed. He wasthouigialistsietdh a t t v e t r he feelings esuc hasn otri e irritation under would wishu which ) witnesst haagtaai again. The act was said to have passed under the protection:of fixad bayonets in that house. He thought that in the present feeling of the country they ought not again to risk such an occurrence. Ac the present moment fostunately the manufacturers were generally employed. Terre were ex ceptions undoubtedly, and those exceptions were likely to continue. He regretted that be was not present yesterday, as otherwise he would have protested against an opinion of an hon. friend of his, that a repeal of the corn laws would raise the wages of :hand.lootn weavers. That was impossible—it might improve their condi tion, but it was impossible that their labour in competi tion with machinery should be raised to the level it forme' ly enjoyed, or the situation they had a right to expect. It was therefore a delusion to stale that the wages of this class would be raised by clue repeal of the corn laws. They would be benefited, no doubt, and by the in crease of the other 'wenches of the silk, cotton, and wool manufactures, they would be gradually absorbed; and in this ineans r only c euld they be r e li eve d. Wh et was the obj ct of the act of 1815 ? It was to keep c o rn at t h e ire niunerating price of 80s. Th at was found impossible, Another object was to keep the market steady—to form a r egular and stea :y market, such as the farmer might cal euil .te upon. In that tuna it haul faile.l.—(No, no•) lie had in Lis band taakseti4itepqlialecae,t of aridtheif"azliltiw iymess and uibcrw a e l u te li l l 'at l in which haul 000 k at that statement, which only went as fir hack as 1828, he must be satisfied that in this object also the act had f tT a h i he le er t s l eef . o l vr t ea l:a iia d tti w b o e na e ss n found impossible to maintain corn at 803.,' r a r n e d u u c p e d a tu t i o ( 0 1 0s own a a t n t d h e u i lt a i t m e a t o e f l y 4 I 0 o w p e e r r . cent., and they were such as no provisions could guard against ; so that instead of being advantageous, they were injurious to the agricultural interest. The landlord suf fered—the farmer became bankrupt, or was obliged to pay the amount of his rent by deducting from his capital —( Hear, hear, hear)—so that it was obvious that the law failed of the object at which it aimed—the support of the agricultural interest, whilst the rest of the community were starved by the project, and the artificial want conse quent upon it.—(A laugh.) He wondered why hon. gentlemen laughed. The object of the law which kept up the price of grain was to support the agricultural interest, and if it failed of the:, why continue it ? Its only effect was to drive to the poor-rates and the poor-house those who would otherwise have been able to make provision for themselves. It would be easy to prove that the manu factures of the country would be treble their present amount but for the baleful operation of the corn laws.— (Hear, hear.) The effect of doing away with these laws would be to reduce the rate of wages—(Cheers from the ministerial benches)—and enable the manufacturer to compete America.—(Hear.) The money te,ith ex h for th last twelve years in manufactures did not pay the mere p rofit of the t pe o n s i e led of by Europe capitalists al aisnt t capital.—(Hear, hear.) Persons employed in manufac turing labour formerly only wo rked twelve hours in the day ; they were now compelled t o work fifteen or sixteen hours, in order to compete with't he forei g n p roducer, who had the staple food at forty pe r cent. lower than they. Thus was the country pauperised. Want of manufactures produced want of work ; the tradesm an was thrown out of employment; he was flung upon the parish; he became degraded in his own eyes ; and lost that inde p endent spirit which used to be the pride and boast of Englishmen. —(Hear.) It may be asked if wages were lowered by the measure, how would the people benefit ? would answer, that food would be proportionably cheaper, and England being the principal corn market, she would strike the average price of Europe, and, at the same time, by her cheaper production, secure a market against the com petition of foreign manufactures. What he sought was, some moderate fixed duty, which would keep the ports regularly open to all nations and all flags, until the trade became ultimately free; and not have it as it was at present, varying and uncertain. This he admitted could only be done by degrees. So un certain and mischievous was this law found in its operation, that since 1815 twelve other acts were passed violating its provisions to meet emergencies.—(Cheers.) Was not this a matter of great evil ? If the ports were regularly open, the trade would become more regular— regular habits of interchange would be induced ; and in lieu of the corn imported, articles of British manufacture would be taken in return. In illustration of this, Ire would instance South America, where British articles had been introduced, notwithstanding it had first been deemed impossible. Another advantage which would follow was that the carrying trade would become more particularly our own, and instead of employing foreign vessels, those ships now rotting in our docks would be called into profitable employment, because the ship owners, many of whom are also merchants, could calcu late upon a fixed, and not a varying and uncertain trade. It had been objected that the repeal of those laws would be the ruin of the agriculturiste. By looking at the prices of corn in various parts of Europe in 1825, it would be found in England 675. Bd. ; in Cadiz 751.; in Lisbon 73 1 . ; at Marseilles 525. ; in other years, 338. in Bordeaux ; 395. in Antwerp ; 66a in Lisbon ; and again, in other years, in Amsterdam 293. 9d. ; Bordeaux 475. 9d. ; Mar seilles 60s. ; and Lisbon 475. If England became a regu lar importing country, these variations would diminish, the consumption of England would increase, and that increase would regulate the price, which, as he said before, would be repaid in articles of English manufacture, and insure to this country a fixed carrying trade. By this plan, which would increase consumption by interchange, the wants of all would be supplied, and the benefits of production dis. pensed. The every-day variation in this article left the whole trade and its dependencies in uncertainty, and by the exclusion of millions of quarters from the country, left millions of people to starve, without any advantage to any class. Why then continue so absurd a system, which in its consequences was injurious even to the farmers them selves ? He was ready to afford to the agriculturists what ever protection they could fairly lay claim to; but he thought he had satisfactorily shown that they could not lay claim to such as this, and more, that it was no protection. But if by protection they claimed to raise the price of corn above what it was on the Continent, he thought it was incumbent on them to show the reason of such claim. If from 1791 up to 1815, when the ports were open, corn came in duty free, in 1815 the agriculturist could only claim protection for the average price in Europe. Since then it had become lower upon the Continent, and why should the agriculturist claim to be supported in a monopoly granted to them by a parliament of landholders ? The conse quence was ruin. The protection they received induced them to look to better times ; they continued on their ;arms, lived beyond their means, and, in the hope of future prosperity, ruin overtook them. Numbers of landholders were now in that condition, and it was not to be wondered at with the claims upon them. There were tithes, poor rates, county eras, local and parochial taxation, and church rates. What title had they to relief from tithes ? They had purchased their land subject to this impost, which existed from tune immemorial. To be sure there had been in some places an enormous increase. They had been doubled, trebled, quadrupled—but, great or small (and it was impossible to say how they could be got down), from 1700 to 1815 no claim of exemption had been set up on which parliament could make any allowance. The poor rate only exempts Iceland, and any exemption on that head would be but partial, as neither England nor Scot land would he included. The hon. gentleman then re ferred to various particulars, in order to prove that the amount of burdens borne by the towns was greater than that imposed upon the land. Let the house look at the amount of assessment—let them look to the expenses of paving, lighting, watching, and other expenses incidental to towns. Let them look again to church rates—from these the landed interest was peculiarly exempt. Then, it had been said that there had been a heavy charge for the militia force; but on this head lie also thought the balance was against the landed interest, though this charge was by no means so great as formerly. Then there were the county rates ; but he was prepared to show, that in respect to county rates the agricultural coun:ies were much less pressed upon than the manufacturing counties. In Sassex the rates were 6s. 9d. in the pound, but in that county they acted upon a principle which), as between landowner and titheowner, he could not but consider unjust and oppres sive. This was to make tithes pay towards the mainte nance of the poor, they being assessed by the parishes for that purpose. A comparison of the agricultural with the manufacturing counties, showed a great pressure on the latter compared with the former. By a statement in the population returns, there appeared, on a comparison of the increase it) the money advanced with the increase in the population, between 1776 and 1815, that whilst the latter heel increased only one-third, the former had in creased five fold.--(Hear, hear.) He was not aware of any other charge that fell on time landed interest which did nut fall squally on the towns. An hon. member e -1 minded him of the malt tax, but though the malt tax tell heavily on the land, it also fell heavily on the inhabitants of towns, the consumers of b er. The rise in the price of food had already added materially to the poor rate, but if the high prices were kept up, large numbers of the operati e ve manufacturing clisses would be thrown out of ern pl ey men', and this burden would be greatly i ncrease d. — (Hear, hear.) Another, and impor tan t cons id erat i on, amongst s i was the effect which these laws h a d on our conamer scuialmueh relations suffermg with other the industrious countries. It had been clearly proved that the virtu a l exc l us i on of our manu factures from the American p or t s , w hi c h had created of this country, was owing to our refusing to admit American corn, to revenge which they had • s.se e d tle Tariff Bill. Poor ra t es to t h e amount of riillius r ' ' might be att r ib ute d to t hi s exclusion.—(Hear, hear . ) Prussia, findin g we wou l d not take timber * her and corn, had shut us out from the greatest portion of Europe for the last ten years, and had now enlisted Germany in her views.—(lleir, Lear.) None of our manufactures can now peneti ate there except such as are einuegted and contraband. All these evils arose from the narrow views of restrictive policy which had been adopted towards that country. He contended that the value of land d- pended on the manufactures of the couLtry, for, in proportion with the increase of manufactures, land advanced in value. An artificial value could not be given to land, nor indeed could a high natural price be maintained; unless you kept up a wealthy class of manufacturers, you must keep augatenting that clots ; you must keep it etniliyed ; you must let it be wealthy, in order that it in :y be bates able to consume the produce of the land. Cot n was only one portion of the produce; it produced cattle, butte. milk, and other articles of necessity and luxury, which went to form rent as wall as corn ; and there were many places in which the rent of land was made up without an : corn whatever being grown upon it. If, on the othea hand, restrictive laws prevented the growth and continue , : prosperity of the manufacturing classes, the land would soon become worth nothing, for it would be eat up by e pauper population. Apiculture could only support e limited number of Nbourers, but the labourers would; t nevertheless, urers w ere „ a increase d ; t a n n d g , i unlessve them t u t i b a u e e p i and e o rent. would be thrown back upon the land, ' l- e whole of its produce, leaving the landlord thesel %e was nots facts. Theyenough should for act England up n a n o and b e E nt a , g l e i eohdt set t iet I F ample to other nations. The feeling whichd;tiroulat: spread through France on this subject shou l n de , A them to increised exertion. Within the last ten i D uties, petition had been presented to the Chamber ( i nn t h e which proved the growing intelligence of EuropeofuPFrance subject of free trade. A part of the peoPle h W as t of appeared to be inclined to follow the example which the lately set them in America. The southern par aUnitedgreat deal l ate c s h d e e a c p l e a r re r d a tteo fromtl nEonr land.gh npa rt that i t wi( _ l .. not buy its produce at a dear rate, whilst it cculd be got 4 '; s te ep rm ari t o h n at fr U o n m ies t s he tt n ie or p ti o je r r t n s pofartthoefktithnliegedorn return Bordeaux, its at wine,a i g ts r e: i t l, public an,i its m fi e .u e i t t i , n g, deScolatrbeed P i e : P P ' l _ a 1?° : to the manufactures of England, which would receive 1: (Hear, hear.). wanted to act in a spirit of monopoly.-- England, however, ought to take the lead, and rFneo,e of social in. ail these barbarous impediments in the way tercourse. Hon. members did not know with what re . - this important object, freedom of industry, wh o spect the decision of England on all matters of commerce was received on the continent, hut they He omight form some, judgmentstr of the matter from the fact, that foreign elation strenuous) defended their bad ra • b our previous • ctices y bad exam knew that debt was urged as y a o r p ea a s y on Yk f i o nn r ;d m ali'ledmirne'dte:asPi'nrehen:-gh ple. If any sacrifice was p to be made to obtain onlyt he c Now, b o re the er l ea reductionnwds rendered properly make it as the wealthy landlords ? The sacrifice, however, would be merely nominal, for the result would be to enable them the more easil t the national debt,. from the general taxation of the country, which woo laws; edb utrich f e tbhye national stpep li yn d co e rf b e tafsoceoo,oui of t al oi tosnel thisyo commerce. country uen p r t e e : et d A; necessarily give foreign commerce and foreign manufau* tures, which had food 50 per cent. cheaper, great advan• tapes over us, for it must be remembered, they could have machinery as well as we. All that was asked was, that the country should be freed from a restriction of the quail' tity of bread the people might consume; for it must be remembered that the landed interest was protected in maul things besides corn. No manufacture was protected above 30 per cent., with one exception, whilst there was a long, list of articles of agricultural produce which the people 01 could se this country were absolutely prohibited from importmg: —(Hear, hear.) The people of England were not all eVefi to exchange their labour for imported beef, pork, blae: cattle of any kind, fish, with one exception -4 foreigor salt fish.—(A I itigh.) He admitted that salt fish Wa°, ° _ A, an agricultural production, but it was an article of 1; and he therefore classed it among the absurd restrictieto be protected? They were protected, howe dt v uo er , we had of that kind. What right had the agriculturistset J a e ! a l l theseoiis werea d v t a h n e t y ag e o s f ? a n y W t h h i a n t g right r i bad ng they ia t e t o n w s p e ep Y trio t ihoi . :, their timber. hay, cider, cheese, straw, and tallow sbrio with them, that even the importation of asses Wo bited.—(A laugh.) Everything that tended to raise the price of food acted as a blight upon the industry o f t he country, and our corn law was a gratuitous blasting c''' b e blessings which nature had put within our reach. , e d could easily conceive how it came to pass when the lau iie _ e proprietors were the only law makers, when an unrefortoe" Parliament did not think itself bound to at,end to tb e r welfare of the whole community; but now that Parliaorto was reformed—now that they were compelled to at" „, the interests of weavers, of shoemakers, of cu at nera, of seamen, in short, of every class as well as t° t h e se o in f .ju th ri e nu o s w r n e e s r t s rie o ti f ,in la s n u d p , un he tb c e o s u u li p l pnlyorucfoinoceedive that n i nni , munity, could be long kept up. It was the formed Parliament to do justice to all closes of its co or de s tuents, whatever their callings might be. There 0 de : various duties levied, but there should be orliY., tw o ne scriptions of duties in a well regulated state. .. e nnta iy, of protective duty ought not to exist ; it was an u,, aan other —(Hear.) It was enough to tax the country in, on fre es things without shutting out the working PuP ulati hear.) the means of procuring cheap f00d...--(llear,.es svo He knew that this evil system of prohibitory du e " nded t° not confined to the agricultural produce, but ex l In his many articles connected with manufactures. _ ar , ides opinion no duty should be laid on manufactured b_.,„, cr imported tthsu i eh n s po t oaruielidtnehibi present timee oiatiutslneetpdrwayor,hnt particularly cl b eau e l y l la o ra n lry d t i ef t ! ! ev i the so ue xcise e. t d o 1 iustbeye pay, able here.—(Hear.) if the amount of custorns w ere tlemof ent this question. There was scarcely any man, _le, however, maintained dra a t nd it vi : except some . few ultra landed gentlemen—for there s nt ultras even in this—who did not admit that at: t re e:el corn laws could not be kept up much longe r. it. F delayed. He should say, let tl , em adopt a stem sl otte d would give steady prices. No man in that house ae for h i s that he advocated the continuance of the corn 109 , e e grie own benefit, but always put forth the interest of to o ..ne , cultural population, as concerned in their inainteeuernce When, however, they looked at what bad taken pla4 d th is the great rise in the prices of corn, they wo uld , o firon t he somewhat difficult to reconcile with the fact. F', l o ' - _,, , ,,feern day when those enormous prices were first ob'al..e.tubecoese gradually the state of theagricultut al population o , 3 .. " nt i e e of gry worse ; and, taking into consideratio:ttoruerbigher bleed, and the rate of wages, it would seem th e " q' latter. -u the former was, the worse invariably were 0 fli _ he the retain the corn laws would, therefore, eerratioyn quiet, worst mole of keeping the agricultural popu _ nnt f or teble —(Hear.) They could not be in a more wee t.--their time P as in situation than they had been in for some Lev ee-- i d !! t n h o e n i eng thinkehri el condition would not be deteriorated by any eu e " for the short, any change which took place must be on il re ,t, better ; and he was sure that the agricultu ral fer !u e v i '; s ee generally, would find that cheap corn was ~ _r th h og vantage. Perhaps those who were entangle! w' re w ere 13°1 leases might be excepted ; but he believed thee er e co o, Europe, and the average price probably wyu 8° f4t the same as it was now. The farmer, therefore,.ossr)„,,, itm a e n e y rta in in such e a u l s d i t r u n a i t s i e o n t . h e I p f a ricetrade o f th i a n t c a o r r t n i eiweiedtrbbrneutnoe,:rui created` front suffering by this, would prosper by ie-- - ( . „. a doe , c whilst we should never be subject to the Odra for . 1 1 4 ' ty pe by the opposition of one or two countries; f oe L .,:nig ht be a w s o k r e l , d i w v‘ h ' a o t ul r d at h e e li c e on p t r e o n p d o i s nf d to 0 LtlP . plY ff u e s i in a fore eerlY a r t !, vocated - a duty of 153. per quarter, ee to the o w duced one shilling every year, 'ill it --alj 'n coast tie where the agricultural interest had a clainbi beyond that to any exclusive taxation paid by them came to tbe t what other classes were liable. when trey heymust eithe point they must do one of two things. l '- e- e iee bu r ' relieve the agricultural interest from their diemexclusive b an dens, which he should much prefer, or C. w ergi equivalent protecting duty. He believed tha t t t i 00' gentlemen in that house, who formerly ellter i ta ', ll : taiu, ll trary opinions, now agreed with him ; and I , ie ,,, r firtea' considered it preferable that the duty s houla '... (nr d ie A noble lord, now one ofthe e s ta te .- die . Secretaries or . ~,, Home Dep artment, vie- ' 1, 6 in 1827 ex ressel similar ' A that ' hoped that his opinion had p not 'Chaneed. O t ' tail 1 'rlY could ooy s un l i d o e , id e w : s n h m a a on n o :v d:i e t i n r i g l o oe f ar would not shrink from statinau' 1 .jui‘ g candidly eiji 0 . opinion in • t favour of a fixed duty. In the pro topri ety than a sudden and extreme alteration. measure ton of the country, he thought they mig ht , w e i r t a b l P da ii i, t h e commence at a duty of 10 wheat, an , 5 - : „ I to - e i duce from th • e. on that Ons vi-better which should be r at point. He admitted be t ti r ogt e hti l ia i et e l ft,doruelt:iyuutetatiiktoennvv protection,o t i a l e d sa , i lir P aet u a t s . 11 0,: a furr( P ice l etv 'h : er.....„o a irp r tec .: loinp:::lo4:llhtr ,: g : ii , tyb; oefna.dttesi: probably lead to great distress. If the landed P , _Ol they called called 4 4ri on corn, then corn should be admitted due free.( m hear.) omen t Pro T t i e , c is ti n v, g o d u t i r d ti duties esvuhreic h p e xisted ought also by degrees to be removed, so the e ll tu tbe ea t . 7 I , teeting duties should cease and determine r ' he Ceti o o rY ti :, very reverse of what they generally ; and the farmers and landed in '_ 01; 01, : o ' , ~ that so far from their gloomy views being . ; take pl ba d l Those who entertained these appreliensions„eueenbjeet. ton ~.. anticipated wy ul e r teiolf it I' not taken a very comprehensive view of the his ro fre s ~ the house felt any objection to that part le of 6 ,set I • which would pledge it at first to the Princitlio rhea s tbeo trade in corn, lie would not put it, th"ug h . r , ba,_ in' they must inevitably come. Some OOP and Play in 1 of the latter w De o q e pee t in h a is de q u to , the stio n ; fu s Tl f e a d e a a n s d ii the w a l asn,d.oe d n cienrtneerdes::er ° liclicea n;l: 0 . :: : tercet which these (Efferent parties had e he p rof') e . i . p s t e e r d i t y o If, therefore, he took an erreneous yieW 0 f ,,, t hese g t „lree t ~ would be to him of the ;y e t q uestiu °l o lo took at least an hones, one.—(Cheers.) "-- d the es deg ' he moved the resolution, to which he entieeteeo , cos ta~ Colonel t i a T il di O , li dto ß hwe E n N t : inn seconded e b : os o tti n ho I , st,:li d dle t it h i e e 1 ru , 10 ° , ii t iri i° ; t , t io, °* , e i a e ° , s • le it ) . is h .i w ii - t o e o( h l l: : : °au ev i:ti a lj ef tP r y' , l , : " -r' p l: O e t e i j o -e , ; ' attention of the house. The lion. member id e i ee sa• tie , by reading his motion, which we have elre' Y bp il q lis t a ti g o i n icu so ltu v r i a t teilo reirtl2,, sound argument. Tirat a reumen __ ° se ly pe e P e ty a l l ly in i t o e i r n e :r t ia t i h rt ere it w W as as o i n ri e d , is a p n e this, that in a country like England, so en ye) b e e% l -. _IP with a manufacturing population, i t would , ,ion to „,, , i l"b i hroa dlY ' ' the , augefous to expose the food of that pont , '" ~w er aub * other eirG4 danger in time of war, or under any distinctlyse nl d