The Sun. — London, England, 1856-05-02 00:00:00

•li. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. • HOUSE OF - LORDS-(YETERDIY), Their Lordships did not assemble this evening, in con- sequence of ita being Ascension-day. HOUSE 01? COMMONS.---(YEsTERDAY.) • The SPEAK= took the chair at the usual hour. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Dewsbury, Batley, 'ard Heckrnondwike Water Bill and the Scarborough Water Bill were severally read a third time and passed. EAST KENT RAILWAY. On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON the order for the committal of the East Kent Railway Bill was read and discharged, the bill baying beien withdrawn. IMPERIAL HOTEL 'COMPANY BILL ' On the motioti. of. 11irTBROTHERTON the order for the committal of the linoerial Hotel Company Bill was reaciand discharged, the bill hating been_withdrawn. THE CHARGES AGAINST. Mk AITICIN. Mr. COWAN asked when the papers and correspon dence relating to charges preferred by Governor Ken nedy against Mr. W. N. Aitkin, late colonial snrgeos at Sierra Leone (for which an address was voted on the 26th of May last) were likely to be laid on the table of the house ? Mr. J. BALL said the papers would be laid on the table next week. POSTAL CONIMUNICATION WITH IRELAND. Lord NAAS asked whether it was intended to make any alteration in the present mode of conducting postal communication in the north of Ireland ? Mr. WILSON said he presumed the question related to Ballymena, Coleraine, and Londonderry ; difficulties had existed with respect to the live of railways ip that part of Ireland, but they had been overcome, and 'an im proved postal communication would commence on the 9th inst. Captain L. VERNON asked when the vacancy of Colonel Commandant in this Royal Engineers, caused by the death of General Wright on the sth of March last, would he filled up ? ' Mr. F. PEEL said it was intended to fill up the vacancy. The Commander-in• Chief had not yet made his selection. Col. DUNNE asked when the Land Transport Corps woeld be disbanded Mr. F. PEEL said the subject was under the consi deration of Government. THE CRIMEAN INQUIRY. Mr. PALK asked the Uadei , Seeretary for War whether the examination already taken before the court of inquiry now sitting, and presided over by Sir Alex. Woodford, would be laid upon the table of the house, and when ? and whether her Majesty's Government con templated any measures for the more efficient organisa tion of the Medical and Hospital Staff, and of the Com missariat, or whether it was intended to reduce those departments to the same peace establishment which was found so ineffieieot at the breaking out of the war ? 'Mr. PEEL said by the warrant constituting the Board of _ General Officers, they ware to transmit their report to the Horse Guards ; but nothing bad yet been sent from the board. It was, of course, intended to reduce the army in consequence of peace, but it would be maintained on a secure tooting. Mr. LIDDELL asked whether the attention of her Majesty's Government had been called to the refusal of the Spanish Government to refund to the firm of Messrs. Clementson (Newcastle-on-Tyne) the amount of the ex cess of duties levied at Tarragona in October last upon a cargo of iron shipped by them to that port ; and whether, after the repeated remonstraLces that had been addressed by Lord Howden to the Spanish Government upon the subject, her Majesty's Government were pre pared to take steps to insure the payment of the money, and to protect British merchants in future from the ex tortions of the Custom-house authorities of the Spanish ports ?_ Lord PALMERSTON said the subject alluded to had occupied the serious attention of the Government at home and her Majesty's Minister at Madrid. . The justness of the demand had been admitted by the Spaniih Government, and they bad promised that the overcharge should be repaid. That promise, he was sorry foamy, had not been fulfilled. The noble earl the Secretary of State for . Foreign Affairs had been in communication with the Spanish Minister on the subject, hut it was peilectky well known that Spain was not the first of the powers to recognise any pecuniary claim. (Hear, hear.) The Spanish Government had not shown that prompti tude which they ought to have done on the subject, but hon. gentlemen might rely that every exertion in this or similar cases would be used to obtain the fulfil ment ()fall just demands. THE DANUBE. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked whether the First Lord of the Treasury would lay upon the table of the house any plan describing the proposed boundaries on the north of the Danube between Bessarabia ? Lord PALMERSTON said the boundary was so clearly laid "doin in the treaty of pease that with the aid of a • goOd map it • could be traced. Tile boundary .ladnotryet been )aid down, on that ground but a com -' mission was about to go out to do so. Mr. FRENCH asked whether the islands of the Danube would be restored to Turkey ? Lord PA.LMERSTON said the islands at the mouth of the Danube had been excluded from the Russian boundary. They would of course belong to Moldavia. THE FIRE WO RKS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he bad been requested th put a question to the first Lord of the Treasury ; it was whether he would state when the metropolis was to be entertained by the display of fireworks which the Home Secretor* bad provided for them ? (Laughter.) Lord PALMERSTON said it would take place on the Queen's birthday. . THE ORDERS OF THE DAY. On the motion that the adjourned debate takes prece dence of the other orders, Mr. DUNLOP complained of the injustice thEy would inflict on the business of the house, and pArticularly of private members, in delaying their proceeding with their bills. He thought it absurd t prolong the debate on the fall of Kars, the question having been virtually de cided by the d►visiou on Tuesday night. This debate was continued merely to allow certain honourable members to make speeches, which would in all proba bility be improved by delay, and reserved for another occasion.. Mr. MALINS also made a similar complaint. Lord PALMERSTO..\T said he had no control over the course the house should pursue on this occasion. FALL OF KARS. The debate upon this subject was resumed by Sir E. B. LYTTON, who spoke as follows :—After what has just taken place with respect to the postponement of orders of the day, I feel that I ought to assure houses and more especially those hon. gentlemen whom my motion for the adjournment of the debate on Tuesday last may have inconvenienced, that when I rose to make that motion I was totally unconscious it would have been opposed by the noble viscount at the head of the Go- Vernment. In making it I had no particular wish of my own to gratify, for I would willingly submit to have been silent ; and I may say it is not now my intention to oc cupy the time of the house at any considerable length. Eat I was piessed to move the adjournment of the debate' by hon. eneMbers who were desirous to prolong the dis mssion, and whose wish I considered, to be entitled to re spect. I naturally thought, casting a glance upon the benches opposite, and seeing that gentlemen who are accus tomed to adorn our debates had not as yet expressed their opi riions upon this important subject, although they were to some extent arraigned ; seeing, also, that we had only one address from a Cabinet Minister—the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and that at an hour when the house was so empty that very few gentlemen could have profited by listening to his elaborate and able defence of the Government and to the very interesting wemoir of the Turkish loan by which that accomplished, distinguished, and historical critic endeavoured to relieve the dreary chronicle of the decline and fall of Kars; seeing all this, I naturally thought that when I ro-e at half-past twelve o'clock oniTuesday night to move the adjournment of the debate, that motion would he acceded to as a matter Of course—(Hear, hear)—and I certainly was never more surprieedthan when I found that, for the second time iq any life, I had occasioned a degree of angry exeiteasent— . -whether real or well simulated I know not--in the case of • the noble viscount at the head of the Government, which fora me _ment alm os t overcame hi s h a bit ua l ur b an i ty. I feel that the best peoof I can now give that I am not. dia led:se:a d to abuse th e privilege by which I am allowed to ad w... the house, at the exp ense o f other h on. gent l emen, ' be tocondens e as much as possible the observations I shall hav e t o make, torefera sdittle ai I can to the now fa miliar extra c t s f rom the blue books, and to confine myself to what may be a f a i r reply to the hon. gentlemen opposit e . m y lln a:ents employed by. Aylesbury told the ho use that he friend a the member for bet* defence for th it e Gover nment than theyke a much for themselves. Eat appeared to me that had mad e m defence he did make rested on an exaggerated estimate of •the the charges which are brought in thi s ease. :1 3 Y at hoof n.Triend, with the candour of a good, advocate, aelmitteci that .the Government had committed very serious mis. e _takes ; but added that he thought it would •be eta _ fair to assert that the fall of Kars was solely attri butable to, "a want of energy and foresight on their parts. But the resolution - before the house 'does not say that the fall of Kars was owing exclusively to a want of eoerey and foresight on the part of the - Government ; if it did, it should not have my support. The question is, whe ther, among other causes, a want of energy and foresight . on the part of her Majesty's Government did not contri bute to that result. The correspondence laid before the house shows that a difference of opinion had prevailed be tween the English Government and the English ambassa dor at Constantinople from Pie month of Sept., 1854, to the month of Sept., 1855, as to the amount of support to be given to the English commissioner in Asiatic Turkey. Now that commissioner had been sent out not only to report upon the state of disorganisation to which the Turkish army in that quar t er h a d b een re duced, but also t o use a ll ' ~, the means at hi s di sposa l for t h e pur p o se of amelioratin g it s e l condition; and thi s bl ue b oo k a ll goes to show that the English Govern ment and the English am b assa d or b e t ween . Ahem failed to place at the disposal of , that commissioner t a ny adequate means for the fulfilment of his mission. The Government itself took great pains to publish that fact. eel., ;. e :The blue book showed th a t from the 11th of Jan., 1855, the 21st of November, a few days before the fall of .4: gears, little or nothing had bean sent to that city by the Geriernment, except a few ball -cartridges. My hon. and . • learned friend the member for Enniskillen referred in terms winch seem to me too severe to the statement of Lord Cla- Wx - tindon, that "the neglected g • arreeen of Kars would at ..~ ~ ~,, :~~~: \*.* least have the satisfaction of knowing that their sufferings troubled the sleep"and repose of the Turkish Ministers,w.ho, in default of all ordinary measures of relief, never ceased. to pray for their safety and success." But the question arises whether there are not other Ministers besides those of Turkey whose " sleep and repose" those sufferings might have disturbed, and in whom that neglected garrison might have inspired not only the piety ofprayer, but the humility of repentance. (Hear.) Now my hon. friend the member for Aylesbury dwelt with great praise on the despatches of Lord Clarendon ; and my hon. and learned friend the At torney-General said that these dispatches were a sufficient proof in themselves of the energy and the hohesty of he r Majesty's Government. My hon. and learned friend asked what more the Government could do than that which they had done ? Well, in much of the praise that is given to these despatches, I most cordially concur. I think that many of these despatches of Lord Clarendon are most ex cellent; I will go further, and say that if despatches or, in other words, if letter-writing could have saved Kars, Lord Clarendon would have saved it. (" Hear, hear," and laugh ter.) But if the Government ought to have been aware of one thing more than any other, it is that despatches or letter-writing were wholly insufficient alone to effect that purpose—(hear, bear)—and the inventive genius of her Majesty's ministers might surely have devised some other mode of provi.wig for the defence of Kars and the security of Asia. It is perfectly true that Lord Clarendon did faithfully report to Lord Stratford all the complaints of General Williams—complaints that he wanted cavalry, that he waster gunners, that he wanted artillery-men, that he wanted reinforcements, that he wanted ammuni tue and proviSions ; and, above all, that he wanted money—(hear, hear)—and Lord Stratford very fully explained that for all these purposes the revenue and re sources of the Sultan were totally inadequate. He also stated very lucidly the reasons why the corruption and peculation which had' been the habit of Eastern Govern ments for generations could not be reformed in a day, or in anything like time sufficient to enable Tur key ,to provide for the defence of Kars. There is one important fact which comes out of this mass of correspond ence with which the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has wholly failed to grapple, and that is, that if any moderate sum of English money had been placed at the disposal of the English commissioner in good time, notwithstanding all the vices of Turkish pecula tion and corruption, a sufficient amount of ammunition and of provisions might have been thrown into Kars, in defiauce of the Russian blockade (Hear.) How die Kars fall at last? It fell from no superiority of force on the part of the enemy, for at the time of its capture there was a greater proportion of force in the garrison than in the be sieging army. Every one knows that Kars w as conquere d by famine. The blue book tells us that the Russian general would have raised the siege when Omer Pacha entered Georgia, if he had not learned from an Armenian spy that there was only a fortnight's provisions in the gar rison. And yet, while England was cheerfully taxing her. self to the utmost to save the empire of the Sultan, not one shilling of our money went to the aid of General Wil liams, who wag holding that fortress on which, in the opi nion of her Majesty's Government, and of Omer Pacha, although not of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the safety of the Turkish capital depended. Let me remind the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, who seems to have doubts upon that point, that General Simmons, in a despatch to Gen. Williams, says that the Government informed Omer Pacha that if Kars should fall, there was no force to prevent the Russians marching directly on Constantinople—(hoar, hear) —and Omer Pacha credited that information. I think that evidence shows that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have placed himself in more confidential communi cation with the noble lord the Secretary for War; and then, perhaps, he might have told us with that unvar nished severity of candour with which he so often tells us vary disagreeable truths, that he was about to raise so many millions for the vigorous prosecution of the war, but that such had been the energy and foresight of the united cabinet that they had pre-determined that not one Aix pence of the money was to go to the relief and defence of that fortress which commanded the great key of Asia Mi nor. (Hear.) " But," said the right hon. gentleman the other night, "if K a r s i s l os t, w h a t then? Vi'hy," says the the right hon. gentleman, " the easiest military operation would be all that is needed to recapture it." (Hear, and a laugh.) Now let ma appeal to him, not as a military authority, but as a Chancellor of the Exchequer, and let ins azle him whether he does not think, as a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence, that it would be much cheaper to save than to recapture it? (Hoar, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, • alluding to the statement that he might himself have come down to Parliament and asked expressly for 'a sum in aid of Kara, said that be could make no such application, because the sum required was so small. The right honourable gentleman seemed to think that it would be beneath the dignity of a Chancellor of the Ex chequer to ask the house for so contemptible a sum as 100,0001. or 200,0001. Now it appears to me that the question of dignity, in such a case, depends not so much on the amount of the sum to be raised, as on the purpose to which it is to be applied. Dr. Sand with tells us that if Gen. 'Williams had had the absolute control of the commis sariat Ksrs would have been saved. But if the Govern meat I ad placed a sum of money at his disposal, that con trol he must necessarily have acquired. If no money, how ever, was to have been given expressly for the defence of Kars 1 want to know bow it was that the Turkish loan had been deferred until August, although the Government had long before been aware, from the in formation furnished to them by their own ambassador, that the pecuniary resources of Turkey had been ut terly exhausted ? Hon, gentlemen opposite may say that any objection of that kind conies with a bad grace from gentlemen who opposed that loan. Now, that may be a very good House-of-Commons argument, but it is not an argument for common sense. I was not myself in the house at the time, as I had paired off during the latter part of the session. But I think that if I had been here, 1 should have voted for the Turkish loan, and I must observe, that in looking at the debates, I find the principal objection urged to the proposal was made, not to the loan itself, but was made on account of the form of our joint guarantee with France. I will appeal to the candour of the noble lord opposite, and I will ask him whether he really thinks that if he lied coins down to the house, and said that pecuniary aid of that nature was absolutely ne cessary. for the security of Kars, and that without it the honour of the British naineonust be tarnished in the E rat —I will ask him whether he really thinks from the expe rience he bad already acquired of hon. gentleman on this side of the house, or even of those hon. gentlemen who were warm advocates of peace, that, however they might have urged their objections to the form of the loan, they would have pressed their objections to a hostile division? (Hear, hear.) I say that either by a direct grant, or by means of a Turkish lo •n, or—and that would have been the beet and simplest mode of all—by sending money to your commissioner himself, expressly for the purpose of being employed. in the defence of K'rrs—l say that by any one of these modes that city might have been saved. (Hear, hear.) But when Lord Ellenborough, in the month of August, called the attention of the House of Lords to the distressed state of Kars, and the neglect of the war in Asia, Lord Panmure replied, that Turkey, in that quarter, was well able to defend herself. (Hear, hear.) Turkey able to defend herself ! That was the statement of Lord Pan mare, in the teeth of the information contained in those despatches which have been published for the purpose of showing how defenceless Turkey was at that very time ; and the statement was made on the very same day— namely, the 3d of August—on which Lord Clarendon, in a at:speech to Lord Cowley, said it was clear that without assistanse the whole T ur ki s h force in Asia must be de stroyed or captured. (Hear.) And was it becoming in my hon. friend the member for Aylesbury, who scarcely ever addresses the house without making some com plimentary allusion to his own peculiar frankness, ho nesty, and straightforwardness—(a laugh) was it becoming in him, not only to excuse, but to eulogise that assertion of Lord Panmnre, on the express ground that it was a falsehood? Can he eulogise a British Minister who deli berately deceives Parliament and the country, in order that he might, at the same time. endeavour to practise a hollow deceit on the Russian General besieging Kars? (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend, in the course of his ad dress, compared himself to a dog at a race course —(a MA—who was shouted at from both sides until the race began, when he was whistled off, for fear he might throw down a favourite. Now that reicinds me of a well-known canine saying —that "Brag is a good dog, but that Hold fast is a bettbr." I believe that on our side of the course we shall 'always be willing to follow Holdfast ; but I ton afraid we must leave it to the other side to offer to Brag woke enticing attractions. (A. laugh.) I will touch upon the point which, though it did , no t di rec tl y affect the fall of Kars, will show we et was the bias in the mind' of the noble lord the Secretary for War, a bleb, I think, did affect the fall of Kars. No sooner had the Eng lish commissioner arrived ler Anatolia than he informed the Government that 10,000 or I'4ooo persons had perished for want of proper medical assistance in the hospitals. He then asked for medical'relief, and the Duke of Newcastle, who, whatever might 'be his faults, was always ready to listen to the claims of humanity, directed that an inquiry should be instituted for the purpose of ascertaining whether the Turkish Government would permit a few English army surgeons to be s en t t o su p er i n t en d th e h o spit a l s a t K ars ancErzerourn. 'That inquiry having led to no effectual result, Lord Clarendon, with equal humanity, forwarded, through Lord Wodehouse, to Lord Panmure, in the month of April, a despatch from Gen. Williams, and a medical re port froar Dr. Seed with, and singe:este& to Lord Panmure whether it would not be advisable to send out some surgeons to - the Turkish army. Lord Commure replied "that he did not see touch prospect of being able to send medical aid to the Turkish army in the province of Anatolia; but he would endeavour to do so to a limited extent, as soon as he had provided for the army of Omer Pacha and the Turkish Contingent." Now I will venture to say, that if the nole!e lord had inserted at that period en advertisement in the Times newspaper, offering a good remuneration to young surgeons for their services in Anatolia, he would have re ceived applications by the hundred in reply. I remember that at the time I myself was asked by several young sur geons to aid them in obtaining employment in the Crimea. The English Government complained that the Turkish au thorities did not attend to the representation of their com missioner, and lyet when he made a request directly to themselves in a matter over which they had absolute con trol, the noble lord the Secretary for War treated that re quest wit h as supreme an indifference as any pacha in the East. While you attempt to throw all the blame in this case on Turkish mal-administration, do not forget that that mal-administration, with all its Orion tallanguor and all its constitutional vices, did great things before you sent your mighty aid to its defence in Asia. Do not forget that on the Danube it, had gallantly coped with the whole might 0 1 : ,,i Russia. Wh a t was th e aid whichyou sent toTntkey in Asia, and what has b e en th e resu lt o f th a t a id ? Y ou t oo k 20 : ,oeo Turkish soldiers into your pay ; but when these soldiers w ere urgently wanteillor the relief of Kars, not a "'an of teem could move. (Hear, hear.) Ido not attempt to excuse Lend Stratford de Redoliffe's neglect in this case. and adhere to that But we hav e will riot allow us to I must fall bae s k ard so much already upon that score that the generous practice of this house, who is riot present to true constitutional principle which at f ile all our blame on a diplomatist poses of the Goverrmensteed himself. It may suit the pur glect, but it should be re s t s e n e constantly to that t complain hey th o e f m h s i e s l vnees have thought proper to retain him ,. in his office. I will not a man of emt ing t e . ability, and I must undertake to censure them for so Lord S n te t •a h t e f ord l i e de g l o rt the house Redcliffe is, no thoudobt, leave to them responeibilay of e d l ";', of retaining him in the service of the State. would not hold to the principles of the It is ; 3 --- ; tion if, while they attack the agent, they allow ' toe n siis tu e . censured the men by whom he was employed. singular circumstance that although Lord Stratford asked in language the most pointed to be informed what was the extent of General Williams's powers, and h ow f ar it eves thought desirable by her Majesty's Government that his commands should be obeyed, without reference to any doubts as t o th e i r expediency, no answer seems ever to have been returned to that question. (Hear, hear.) But it may be said that such was the surpassing energy of Ge neral Williams, that in spite of every difficulty, and by his own individual exertions, he succeeded in provisioning Kars for four months. Yes, but General Williams stated in his despatches that if within the four months aid did not come to hitu the only perspective of Kars was the vanishing point of starvation, and yet that aid was. never sent. I find that when Omer Pasha pressed the allied generals and hduairals to consent to the adoption of his plan fur the relief Kars, and founded his arguments ou a despatch of General Wil liams's, dated the23d of June, showing the urgency and the importance of sending aid to the Turkish force in Armenia, the allied generals absolutely refused to give any opinion upon the subject, on the ground that they had no informa tion from the ambassa'lors of their respective Governments at Constantinople which could lead them to suppose that the affairs of Asia were in a precarious position. That was the species of concert which seemed to prevail between our agents in the East. Is it for the men who have. so signally mismanaged our interests in that quarter to come forward now and throw on Turkish mal-administration the blame of any calamity that may have arisen? I cannot but think that her Majesty's Government strikingly failed in the duty of providing early in the Rummer some plan for the em ployment of the army of Omer Pacha, whenever it might be found that that army could ho sent to Armenia. I shall not, in an assembly of this character, and seeing as I do before me many distinguished British offiders, presume to allinie to strategical faults ; but as a man of common sense, I say, why were you not provided with some kind of strategy Your attention was repeatedly called to the embarrassments which must necessarily arise under a cer tain state of circumstances in the direction of which events were fast tending, and it was your bounden duty to have provided some plan by which the anticipated evils might have been met. (Hear.) But where was this organised conception of yours ? I think it has been said by a mili tary authority of the greatest eminence that a good gene ral may be defeated, but cannot be surprised. Such a say ing also is applicable to a minister far war. He ought to think of a choice of plans, and be ready to adopt one or another when the moment for action arrives. 'Bat more than that, it is his duty to consult with his generals as to the feasibility of the plan he proposes, and if it is capable of alteration—capable of modification, with re spect either to the time or to the circumstances, to come to a decision in accordance with the necessity of the case. But, above all, it *was his duty to be ready when the emergency arose. (Hear, hear.) It was this•want of attention to preliminaries which led to the unparalleled admixture of hurry and delay, energy and torpor, in the mcsath of July, which prepared the way for the catastrophe which ultimately rewlted. (Hear, hear.) Can anybody doubt that had moripy' been forthcoming when required—had troops been sup s llied as they ought to have been, the fate of Kars would have been wholly different? I cannot bat think that such would have been the case. (Hear, hear.) It was not until the month of July that out of the cloud of the despatches there did at length emerge the awful form of our Illin'ster of War. The Greek poet tells us that the advent of the Olympian Jove, in the struggle before the beleaguered city, was productive of order in the confusion ; but the advent of my Lord Pan mure in the strugele seemed to render the confusion still more perplexed and complicated. The only question being how to stir for want of means, Lord Pantnure writes ora cularly to General Vivian, and tells him to do—what? To uphold the British reputation ! (Laughter.) But does he provide the smallest aid? Certainly not. Does he even sug gest the means? No. (Hear.) If, in the month of July, all these preparations were required to place Kars in a proper position of defence, why was not the money forthcoming, which would have been the best countenance we could have given to the prosecution of the war in Asia. If you were so careful of the British flag, why permit it in the month of September to succumb to the Russians before Kars? Why, in the month of July, were you provided with no moans to sustain it? The right ho nourable gentleman deludes himself if he supposes that the honour of the English flag was not concerned in the surrender of Kars. By that time the eyes of England nay, the eyes of Europe—were fixed with unalloyed ed. miration upon the noble attitude of the brave English sol dier, who, with the assistance of three or four of h;s countrymen, was upholding—embodying—the renown of the whole nation. (Cheers.) Kars and General Williams could not he divided in the mind of anyone. Kars was that Englishman, and that Englishman was Kars—(loud cheers)—aud to have evinced energy and foresight in pre paring for the defence of Kars would have been to have closed the war with glory, not only to General Williams, from whose renown nothing can detract, but to England. (Renewed cheering.) " Organisation," says Lord Pan mure:--" organisation is as necessary to an army as sup ply." Can anything be more severely true? But, says General Williams, " adde 1 to organisation supply is ab solutely necessary to the defence of Kars." What does Lord Panrnure say with respect to supply? Contrast the account of the state of the Russian army before Kars with its defenders. Behold the soldiers in their com fortable tents, with decent firepl , ces, and the officers in their huts, with glazed windows, and surrounded by luxuries. Contrast the condition of those men, whow we are accustomed to consider as a sort of semi-barbarians, with the miserable, ill-clad, famished spectres, who for mouths withstood every effort of the ene up, and who were left to struggle and to starve with all the wealth of England at their disposal, wealth ex pended so lavishly, too, elsewhere. (Hear.) And yet, fore knowing what must happen, the English Minister of War could not devise a single meesure of prevention until he himself sees that it is too late. What is the popular argu ment which hon. gentlemen opposite now make use of to shield the Government from the consequences of its inac tion ? The war, they say, is over. But. if the war is over its consequences remain. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says, " We shall not fight the question again when we come to discuss the articles of peace." Bat will any one wh) calls himself an Englishman tell me that if a war should break out again with Russia in defence of Turkey, and that war should happen to havo for its theatre the Asiatic frontier, the stirrenderof Kars on this occasion will not have the greatest moral effect in weakening British prestige. But, sir, aro we to be t , ,ld that because the offence is over the offender is to be freed from his responsibility ? That is not the line of argument adopted by the Tight hon. vutle rn an with resnect to the Ottoman Porte. 11,,w does it agree with the demand on the part of the English Government for the dismissal of Selim Pacha. Ilis dismissal was demanded, and he was dismissed. Might not the Porte have said. "Oh that's over ; liars is gone andtheoffence has passed." (Cheers.) What was the offence of &lint Pachal Why, procrastination ; and if that is to be punished by loss of office, what, I should like to know, is the obvious infer ence ? (Hear, hear.) The Attorney-General turns to the art'cles of peace triumphantly, and asks—What mere could we have done? That there were faults no one can doubt. One gentleman says, they rest with the arnhassa dor; another, that Omer Pacha was to blame ; a third, that it was the Ottoman Government ; but it you ask rile to make a direct charge, all t can say is this :—Here are the applications which General Williams wade to yott; have you attended to them ? (Hear.) He is a man in whom you place the .utmost confidence, and who in circumstances of great difficulty makes three requests. First, he asks for money; secondly, for surgical aid ; and thirdly, to increase and extend his personal authority. The money you do not send ; even the surgical aid you do not send ; and with respect to extending his personal authority, you, through your ambassador, in effect decline to do it. Your general cannot stir a step because he does not receive the information he is in want of ; when he asks for seine ad ditional force, we are reminded that France might have been an obstacle. Has any hon. gentleman on the p srt of the Government shown that there was ever any consulta tion with the French Government as to what should be done should such a contingency as the siege of Kars bertha Russians arise? No one has done so, and I think, there fore, that I am entitled to say such a contingeucy ought to have been contewplaied and provided . fur, not that it should be, as it was, left to the chapter of accidents. When I am asked, what could the Government do ? I say on the other hand, what had the Government done? It is no answer to turn to the despatches. I grant that you could not have written better ; but I cannot conceive any case in which you could have acted worse. I confess I am prepared to find a majority against me. Of course there aro many lion. gentlemen who honestly think there is no case against the Goverarneet. Some no doubt there aro influenced by a laudable attachment to ministers, others who will be seduced by those seductive touch es o f p a th e ti c eloquence in which the Attorney-General reminds us that the Government have concluded the war by an honourable peace, although it may be a peace which I do not tbiukhas been greeted with any great manifestation of popular en thusiasm. (Hear.) Borne there may be who will vote fur the Government from their admiration of the noble lord at the head of the administration, in which admira tion lam free to say th a t I participate. But, upon the whole Ido not think the majority will be great. If there •is one of her Majesty's Government who, when he goes into the lobby, ventures to ask some friend in a cautious whisper, "Now, don't you think that thischarge is unjust and that the Government have shown great energy and foresight for the preservation and relief of Kers ?'' my be lief is that his friend will reply in an equally cautious whisper, " If that be your idea of energy and foresight, I trust, for Heaven's sake, that in future you will try to direct it into some other channel." (Laughter.) lam not altogether in the position in which I see some of my friends around me and many boa. gentlemen on the other side— I am not tied by the ties of party, but can afford fully, freely, and fairly to do justice to the groat qualities of the noble viscount at the head of the Ministry, and also to Lord Clerendon, who has evinced in his despatches the deepest sympathy for General Williams. I grant that the words of these despatches must have been as gleams of sunshine to the gallant soldier in his desolation and trial; but if those letters come to cheer and encourage him, there are others which tend to sadden and depress the gallant defender of Kars, and which, like the gloomy apparitions of the poet, Show his eyes, and grieve his heart, Come like shadows—so depart." (Cheers.) Giving to the Government, however, all the praise to which they can fairly lay claim, I ask the hon. gentleman who can give a fearless opinion whether it is not to such causes as want of energy and foresight on the part of our Government that we are to ascribe the fall of Kars ? In almost every letter General Williams tell you of the evils of procrastination—in almost every letter he tells you yon must not rely upon the resources of the Poste alone, and yet to the last you procrastinate, to the last you, con fine him to those resources—not one step do you take, not one remedy do you provide, not one stratagem do you con coct, until at length you are overwhelmed with the logical consequences of your own improvidence and neglect, and history, drawing her moral from the pages of this blue book, will record with inflexible justice that the fall of Kars in the two years' war was attributable, and attribu table alone, to the procrastination and neglect of the Bri tish Government. (Loud cheers.) Mr. V. SMITFI would not attempt to follow the hon. baronet in those flights of fancy by which he had a Corned the discussion ; but he might be permitted to thank him for the honourable contrast which his address presented to the speech of the hon. and learned gentleman who made the original motion. The hon. baronet complained of some thing like a want of courtesy by his noble friend at the head of the Government on the occasion of the adjournment of the debate last Tuesday. He assured the hon, baronet no discourtesy whatever was intended, and least of all would it become any member of the house to evince dis courtesy to him who was as much distinguished by his ur banity as his eloquence. (Heer.) But the hon. baronet would recollect the circumstances of that evening, and the feeling of listlessness and languor that existed. His noble friend had alluded to the circumstance of the withdrawal of the motion in the other house, and he (rtr. V. Smith) must say, considering that a great part of the discussion had re solved itself into an attack upon Lord Clarendon and Lord Pantnure, it would have been more generous for them to have p resse d it i n th e H ouse o f L or d s an d abandoned it in th e H ouse of C ommons. I t did appear t o hi m th a t e n v a there was an o b v i ous i nten ti on t o eva d e th e di v isi o r. They t rusted for a time to the h ope t h a t th e amen d men t of whi c h notice was given by his hon. fr i en d t h e mem b er fo r Leomin s t er wou ld b a d e b a t e d, but he having de dined to brig it f from which they sought to escape by putting up an hon. resolutionorward they wet© w a viewrein a to evadetilu dilemma the, , d vid en Dorset shire h , and accordingly the hon. member for ad in wed what, had been called the previous question, but which, if carried, would be the most idle and f, r '~. ~ 5... . THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 2, 1856. mischievous resolution that could be imagined, because it would affirm the inexpediency of entertaining the question -of the fall of Kars before discrissiug the articles of peace. No ono ra ore lamented that calamity than he did ; but he looked upon it merely as an incident of the war, and by - no means fraught with those political consequences which the hon. and learned gentleman so much dreaded. No doubt sufficient means would be taken to disseminate the news of its fall throughout Asia Minor, and Russian agents would represent it as a great Russian triumph. But with the news of its fall would go forth that of the desperate assault and repulse of Mouravieff on the 29th of September, and it would become known that it was famine alone, and not the arms of the enemy, that induced it to surrender. The same newsman who convoyed the intelligence of its fall to the remotest parts, would spread far and wide the immortal name of General Williams, and the knowledge that he was an Englishman would go fat to maintain our prestige throughout the whole of Asia Minor. He re gretted that the honourable and learned gentleman should have spoken in so contemptuous a tone of the " doctor." No one who had read the blue book could fail to ob serve that Dr. Sandwith had rentlere the most es sential service, and really he thought that after the noble self-devotion shown by that gentleman in re lieving the suffering of the troops, the hon. and learned gentleman would have been ashamed to have spoken so slightingly of the "doctor." But the hon. and learned gentleman bad poured the torrent of his indignation upon Lord Stratford ; and, after continuing his attack as long es he could with any decency, he turned his attention to Lord Clarendon. Now what was the whole gravamen of the case as against Lord Stratford de Redcliffe —that he did not answer Gen. Williams's despatches. Nothing, he ad. mitted, could excuse that, whether resulting from negli gence or any other cause ; but he put it to the house whe ther, when they looked to the important results which would follow, it would justify the Government in recalling the noble lord. Lord Stratford de Redcliffe was a diplo matist a the most distinguished abilitie; ; he was em phatically the right man in the right place, and it was ac knowledged upon all heads that he possessed an authority in Turkey which noother man could possess— an authority little shirt of that of the Sultan, and it was absolutely necessary for the interests of the State to maintain him in that position. If he had been recalled it would have been said directly that an entire change had taken place in the views of the British Government, and the con sequence might have been disastrous. He admitted that so far as the non-answering of General Williains's des patches was concerned, a cas 3 had been made against Lord Stratford de Redcliffe ; but he utterly denied that it was such a case as would wairaut her Majesty's Government, under the circumstances, to recall the Ambassador. Tug fall of Karp had no influence upen the result of the war. This was proved by the protocols. No doubt every achievement in war added to the power of those who ef fected it. But it was clear that Kars must be surrendered on the restoration of peace • and the restoration of peace hid really resulted from the taking of Sebastopol. The French had not attached great importance to Kars, an I sent not even a commissioner there. The discussion of the question was justifiable, but it should not have been made a means of displacing the Government. (A. laugh.) There was no fairness in thus fastening on a particular part of the conduct of the war. Lord Malmesbury had shown that he had come to this opinion by withdrawing his motion on the subject in another place. He (Mr. V. Smith) knew that the people of England deeply lamented the fall of Kars. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He him self had had lamented it most intensely. But the people of Elgland had also cause to rejoice at the fall of Sebas topol, and they could not be unge ateful for it ; and they were unwilling t ) rake up bygones, and would recoil from such motions as this, and were reluctant to encourage party attacks. If in the management of delicate alliances and amidst great difficulties, the Government had com mitted sonic slight error in referem.e to Kars, he appealed to the gene osity of the people to be grateful for a war, on the whole, well conducted, and a peace well concluded. (Ministerial cheers.) No member rose for some moments, and there were cries of " divide, divide," when Mr. VANSITTA ta rose, saying that he should not have spoken, but that no other memberappeared dispos,d t ad dress 1,10 house. He i 133 e -veil that the defenders of the Government, backed by what they fondly thought to be a majority, had actually arrogated for their entire credit an immunity from blame in the conduct of the war. Now, to that view he could not assent ; and the contrary feeling would dictate his vote. The Government were not justi fiable for perilling the Britislename by sending a " com missioner" to Kars, with the appearance, without the reality, of power, and leaving him to inevitable defeat, backed up neither by men, money, nor materials. It would have been better to have left the Turkish Govern ment with the sole responsibility of the defence of Kars, and not to have associated it with th e British name. Kars might have fallen a month or two sooner; but though the Russians might have gained the same success, England would have escaped some disgrace. (Hear, hear.) Captain L A FFAN desired, as a military man, to address the house. He dwelt upon the importance of he siege of Sebastopol. What could the Government have withdrawn forces from the Crimea awl sent them to Kars, for an object the French considered purely English—the defence of the route to India ? It was impossible to send English troops to Kars ; and all that could be done was to advise the Turkish Government as to the use of the forces under their control. The plan of Omer Pacha was utterly impractic able. The supposed force for the purpose existed in a great degree only upon paper, and the rest was incougraous and haler ogeneous. The two main charges against the con duct of the war as to Kara was the discouragement of this expedition by Georgia, and the recommendation of the route by Trebizond. But in both of these courses the Government ha I shown their sense and judgment. Approv ing of the conduct of the Government iu a military point of view, he thought them politically wrong in not having sent money to General Williams; for with money at his command that gallant officer would h eve saved Kars. (Hear.) But he could not bring himself to believe that any amount of •• foresight and energy" on the part of the Government eowd have saved that fortress. Col mel DUNNE did not think the hon. and gallant member who had just spoken had been more successful in his defence of the Government than hon. members who had preceded him. (Hear.) The defenders of the Go vernment contended that Kars wee not a place of great military importance ' • but in his (Colonel Dunne's) opinion Kars was the lev er by which a peace, neither acceptable nor grateful to the country, had been brought about. (Hear.) He believed that this country had suffered a great diminution of glory by permitting that fortress to be taken. (Rear.) With regard to the strategical operations, the Mi nister of War had said that the march by Trebizoud was the proper method of proceeding ; but every military man Lad expressed an opinion adverse to that view. (Hear.) The road by Trebizund was not practicable for the passage of cannon. It would take 30,000 men three or four months to march to the scene of action by that route. (Hoar.) No military man doubted that the proposition of Omer Pacha ought to have been carried out. Thu march by Erze ruum was not practicable; that by Soukum Kelela was, and the Government was greatly in fault for delaying pro ceeding by that route so long. (Hear.) Had the contingent of General Vivian been sent to Balaklava, Omer Pacha would have taken his troops to Asia Minor, and Kars would have been saved. Nothing had prevented Omer Pacha's advance by Kutais but the lateness of the season ; and this delay was owing to the indecision, the want of foresight, and the incapacity of those entrusted with the arrangement of the operations. It was a most flimsy argu ment to say that the contingent was not sent to Balaklava, because it was unfit. In his opinion, the guilt of the fall of Kars rested on the War Dapartinent of this country. If the War Department were tried by a jury of military men, ho felt assured that its condemnation would be more sigual than in the House of Commons, or in the country. He felt no doubt as to the opinion of the nation being in accord ance with the resolution of his hon. and gallant friend the member for Enniskillen. Without going into the earlier portions of Lord Stratford's conduct, he must be permitted to state his regret that the ambassador had not answered General letters. (Hear, hear.) In extenu ation of the ambassador, however, it ought to be rememb3re I that Gen. Williams was not placed under him, but under Lord Raglan; that Gen. Williams occupied the same position as did Col. Rose with GOD. Pelissier. But the Government were responsible for the conduct of their mbassaclor, and the War Department guilty of the fall of , Kars (Hear.) As yet h e h a d h ear d n o defence of the con ' duet of the Government. Ora the contrary every speech uttered had confirmed him as to their guilt. (Hear.) Mr. COWAN stated his intention to support the Go. vernment. Mr. LIDDELL said he had no hesitation in voting for the amendment of the hon. member for Dorsetshire. With regard to the resolution of the hon. anti learned member for Enniskillen, he could have hoped to have seen it dif• ferently worded, and less forcible in its meaning ; but while he could not agree in all the censure which that resolution cast upon the Government at home, yet if asked whether the f all of Kars was or was not attributable to the want of fore sight anti energy, he must vote in the affirmative._ - A pause of some moments ensued, di-11111g which no mem ber 1.040 to address the house, and calls ware raised for a division. At leagth, Sir J. GRAHAM rose. He said —T know not whether the hon. and learned member for Greenock (Mr. Dunlop) is iu his place, but I can assure him and the house that it is never toy practice, even were it in my power, to make a speech for display; and it is only a sense of duty and the feeling that I ought not to give a silent vote ou this im portant euesti, n which induces me to rise on the present oc casion. I shall take the hint which was offered by the hon. an .l learned member for Greenock. and shall endeavour to compress into the narrowest space the observations which it will be my duty to submit to the house; and I am bound to state that, like the hon. gentleman who has just sat down, I have had some doubts with respect to the vote which I ought to give upon this occasion ' • but, both iu public and in private life, in a ease of doubt, I think the rule a safe one to do as one would be done by ; and having lately been a responsible servant of the Crown during the conduct of the present war, I am bound to remember the difficulties with which her Ma jesty's Government have had to contend. My own expe iience hiss taught me that it is a very difficult operation to c<induot a g rea t war, whether by sea or land, with forces unde r com manders with a divided authority. Now, what is the experience of the greatest commanders in this respect ? I think it is an observation of the great Napo leon that even one bad general is better than two good ones at the head of the same army. He makes also an other reflection—that an army composed of different na tions will to; be long before it commits great mistakes. What, again, was the experience of the Duke of Welling ton in the Peninsular war? He felt the difficulty of a divided command to so great an extent that almost iintne diately after his landing in the Peninsula he thought it r n a oltisosiolo nlyroefotuhisaitteartmoy, puhtoaktuntg7 as it were, both th e fi rst head of the P or t uguese army en officer second only to himself, but he th oug h t i t also indisp ensa bl y n ecessary that he should be th e gene and the second commands in it. At Talavera he did not command, and at Salamanca he had only an imperfect command, and felt deeply the inconvenience of a divided authority. There is a remarkable letter of the Duke of Wellington's w r itten when Alexander, Emperor of Russia, proposed to send a corps d'armeo to the Peniusula, to be placed partially under the command of the Duke of Wel lington, which sets forth the opinion of that great man upon the difficulties attendant upon a divided command. In a despatch of the Duke of Wellington to Lord Bathurst he says : I . `l must n o t sa y bow much I am flattered by th e dispo sition of the Emperor of Russia to place his troops under my command. if the Emperor should carry this inten tion into execution, I beg leave to recommend not only that the Emperor should place them under my command, but th a t h e s h ould accep t o f m y services (with th e permis sion of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent) as a general officer in his service of rank senior to the gener a l o ffi cer who should b e sent i n com mand of his Imperial M a j esty ' s troops, an d t h at a lthough the discipline and int er i or eco nomy of his Imperial 3lajesty's troops should be carr i e d on under the direction of the general officer who would come to the Peninsula with them, all reports, &c., regarding them and their operations should pass through my hands. I mention this now, because, having for some years com manded an allied army composed of very discordant mate iials, and having bad the good fortune to preserve the utmost harmony among them, I nm anxious that, iv Cri49 his Majesty the Emperor should b. 3 disposed to carry his intention into execution, his views should m t be frustrated by want of attention to the occurrence of one of those r , o• cidents which experience has sho wn are too likely to occur in the employment of allied troops in the same scene of action." I have now, Sir, shown the house what was the opinion ex pressed by two of the greatest commanders of modern times with regard to the difficulties of commanding combined armies. It is true that in our history we have bright ex einples of achievements by combined armies. Reinilies and Blenheim at once occur to our recollection, but still the diffi culties of a command over a corn bined army are great in the extreme. I, sir, have had the advantage of being from early youth a friend of the late Lord Raglan, and hay that in valour, courtesy, srmness, and honour he was a bright, example of an English general. (Hear.) He had, upon the el oand to which I have referred, great difficulties to contend against, but by his courtesy he won the esteem of two Marshals of France—(hear)—in a combined operation. His valour was proved when he led—a circumstance new in our annale—leritish troops side by side with French to the storming of a strong position, defended by brave sol diers, worthy of the adversaries against whom they had to contend. (Hear.) He had, I say, great difficulties to con tend with, but thanks to his courtesy, the alliance roma tied unbroken. Although his conduct during some part. of his command has been made the subject of adverse comment, I think that, taken all in all, we shall not for some time look upon his like again. (Hear.) As regards General Williams, who is more immediately connected with the subject of this debate, he has displayed qualities of the highest character, and has proved that for the future the brightest hopes may be entertained of him. (Hear, hear.) If Kars could have been saved by Gen. Williams I believe it would not have fallen, but, while I say thus much, 1 must also bear my testimony to the manner in which Lord Clarendon supported the authority of Geo. Williams. I will state to the house a circumstance which has not yet been mentioned, and which I think will show that the merits of Gen. Williams, great as I believe them to be, were not unobserved by thei Earl of Aberdeen. In the year 1843 it was the duty of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs to select an officer for the importsnt post of a commissioner to arrange the frontier between Turkey and Persia, and Lori Aberdeen, after full inquiry, appointed Gen. Williams to that office—(hear, hear)—and I must say that the conduct of that gallant officer o-i that occasion gave the greatest a s tisfaction to the Turkish and English Governments. When it became necessary to appoint a commissioner to the Turk ish army in As-a Lord Aberdeen, remembering the serv , ces of Gen. Williams, recommended Lord Clerenitt n to a, point that gallant officer to the post, and Le d Clarendon, with the concurrence of the Cabinet. made that aupointment (dear.) It was not my intention to have rise ► so early this evening, anti I deeply regret that I am obliged to speak in the absence of an hon. gentleman, because I should have liked him to hear the answer I am about to make to some of his observations—l mean the hon. member for Aylesbury. Now, sir, I must say that it is extremely easy to kick ad( ad animei - (laughter) —and, as the hon. gentle ton has been engaged, and I hope profitably engaged, in reseerc'e a con nested with peop:e long since dead, I can quite imagine that he would prefer kicking a defunct administration to coming in collision with a Ministry in ease. (Hear.) I say, sir, that the comments of the hon. gentleman on the Govern went of Lord Aberdeen are most unjust. The hon. gentle man says that the Administration of Lord Aberdeen en tirely overlooked the importance of the Asiatic frontier of Turkey, and the danger to Turkey of the advances of Russi iu that direction. Nov, sir, I will not trouble the house with more extracts than I can help, but I must remind the house that the despatches to which I shall refer were written by the Duke of Newcastle as the organ of the Government, and I think that the statement of the hon. gentleman that the Government of Lord Aberdeen was indifferent to the state of the Turkish army in Asia will fall to the ground. I will not refute that position by many extracts, but will confine myself to three. I would bee the house to remember th e d a t es . Th e D u k e o f N ewcast le lett the Administration with Lord Aberdeen towards the end of January. In the preceding October Lord Claren don wrote to Lord Stratford de Ralcliffe—an fit is con sistent with my own knowledge that the despatch was written in concert with the Duke of Newcastle—in the following terms : " Her Majesty's Government have a direct interest in the effective state of this army (that is, the army of Kars and ou the Asiatic frontier), as it is likely that military operations upon a large scale will be carried on in Asia next year ; and they must therefore again insist upon the necessary measures being taken without delay." On the part, therefore, of Lord Aberdeen's Cabinet, I must say that there was the earliest indicatiou of foresight with . reference to the probable course of military events in the early part of 1355. The date of the despatch is important, —it is the 21st of Ocr,oner. It is immediately eonesquent upon the hope entertained confidently by Lord Raglan anti Mantle' Caurobert that the bombarduien: of Sebastopol, which was to take place on the 17th of October, would b successful, anti it clearly shows that the policy of Lord Aberdeen's Government was that, if happily that bom bardment shouldi he successful, part of the allied forces would be directed on Asia. Here is the matter most dispute between the hon. gentleman and myself. Un doubtedly her Majesty's Government—l believe the pie - sent as well as Lord Aberdeen's—did attach primate importance to the Crimean operations, and regarded a secondary, although most important, the military move ments and events on the Asiatic frontier. The hon. gen tleinau takes an opposite view. He thinks, I believe, that the operations in the Crimea were secondary to the move ments on the Asiatic side, and therein differs on a point of strategy from the conclusions at which the Government ar rived after giving the matter their most careful considera tion, and consulting with those beat qualified to advise them. But new I would ask attention, as a proof that the Duke of Newcastle and Lord Aberdeen's Government never departed from the view which they took with reference to the importance of the Asiatic frontier to a despatch which, I think, was partially read by the hon. and learned member for Enniskillen. It is from Col. Mundy to Lord Wodehouse, and is dated lith November : " The Duke of Newcastle is of opinion that it will be found almost an impossibility for the English and French forces to co operate with an army iu the state in which the Turkish army in Asia is represented to be, unless a complete change of system be effected. His grace further directs me more especially to re quest that your lordship *ill call Lord Clarendon's attention to the statements of Cot. Williams with regard to the arrears of pay duo to the Turkish soldiers, and the evil results arising therefrom, not only causing distress and privAion in the army, but encouraging desertion from its ranks ; the want of clothing among the troops of all arms, and the absence of medicine for the sick and want of properly qualified surgeons." That does nor point so directly to an intention of sending further military assistance with a view to more active opera tions in the spring of 1855. I think Lord Aberdeen's Go vernment left office in the end of January, and there is a despatch from Lord Clarendon to Lord Stratford de Red o life, dated Jan. 11, which also is a despatch that I know was written in immediate concert with the Duke of New castle. Lord Clarendon says : " But this is all that has been done for the relief of the army, notwithstanding the repeated and urgent remonstrances of her Majesty's Government, which are of a date long ante rior to the departure of Gen. Williams from this country. The Porte was well aware of the anxiety felt by her Majesty's Go vernment on this subject, and of the importance they attached to the army at Kars being in a fit state to take the field next spring." Here is an indication of the policy of the Government and the measures of precaution they thought it expedient to take, officially communicated as early as January to Lord Stratford de Rideliffe. (Rear.) Now, sir, I think I shall rigUly divide the subjects of blame imputed to the Govern ment jute two—first, that there being reason not to be altogether satisfied with the conduct of Lord Stratford de Redeliffe, they failed to recall him ; and, secondly, that Cley omitted to send aid to Kirs in the summer of 1853 t tlh h l e ee a ps i eer consecutively. ar apiisiseiaorn to m e I'l' teh et hAheonlade hous e , ,t fi i s g t ‘ , vtio w l with regard r°e r t e c. g t ni a t tack,to attentiona n t d h w co i ttnho tdourcotoyo G L o o o r e d r a S l tr t a h .afto it td is e impossiblee deff e. a l l t oge agreethe altogether with v i t o h d e i e iwn a the rd s t earlier h o cud o f stage lB o s f l o,a these dth p e r o o o c in ee tu di e n o g o s e , m p e a o r t t o ic t u i l B a s rl s y , ttohe tanhoe egtilsetocott;dgtio: of t n hh s ie l o v ip e r ut ibitolhie:olsleeltrtveircseo.f authorityG e Gen. whichW ill W i lliams— ( cheers) In a s s necessary( cheers) to — o sustain him; and I think that there can be no doubt that there was a misunderstanding between Gen. Williams and Lord Stratford de Ratcliffe, which was not conducive to aid that muck, I thi nk there are circumstances w ut i , t h u a r v e i tTnt to the past lite and conduct of Lord Sratford which would have made it a fatal error on the part of her Majesty's Go vernment to all him from Constantinople. (Rear.) It is said that he neglected to answer as many as 6L letters; but it appears that on cue morning 17 despatches arrived to gether, t e luirin g probably only one answer. I will not, however, deal with the question iu that manner. I have admitted that i think there were parte of the conduct of Lord Stratford de Redeliffe fairly reprehensible ; but, ou the other hand, I agiee with the honourable aud gal lant officer who spoke on the opposite side that there, Wperhap, were def ects i n th e or i g i na l a rrangement. Gen. Williams w as seat as m i l i iary commissioner, placed more itn we dately under the orders and direction of Lord Rag lan, and not so immediately under the control of the British ainbas.a tor. (Hear, hear.) Probably, too, his powers and functions were nob strictly defined ; and under these circumstances, although it is certainly to be regretted, it was not very unnatural that in the first in stance, some misunderstanding should have Edison between Lord Stratford and General Williams. But against that I beg the house to set the services rendered by Lord Strat cpwtiayseu o influence less, Russian io ogiaag, Russiao g o re s ss t aggression no a capital Strat ford de R a d c li ffe to the country. Recol l ect h ow h e st oo d as a senti ne l , almost alone, oppos i ng a c o ns t a nt front to the u r spirit nu—dto what re u seduc tions havenot a l ways b een thrown away. Let me also re mind the ho use o f th e i n fl uence ac quired by Lord Stratford over the Turki s h G overnmen t. H o himself tells us of the nthat Russian quarter, co rruption which prevails iu every department of that Go vernment, a n d l e t us no t f orge t how his honesty and wahggerreesh sido and in tegritythe currupjve influence of Russia in a capital where hit seduc tions havenot always been tiarovn away. Let me also re mind the house of the influence acquired by Lord Stratford over the Turkish Government. He himself tells us of the corruption which prevails iu every department of that Go- Vernment, and let us not forget how his honesty and in tegrity have stood proof again s t the baneful influence, and to what noble Purposes he has directed the influence gained by honour and uprightness. The papers which have just been presented to Parliament show how successfully he has exerted himself in favour of the Christian subjects of the Sultan. I attribute mainly to the influence of Lord Stratford, constantly anti nobly exerted, that hatti-sheriff which gives such important privileges to the Christian population in Turkey. He assures us that no subject of the Turk will be molested on account of his redgioue opinions, or punished on account of the abandonment of ally faith which he shalt renounce. That establishes religi ous liberty in Turkey ; and that hattiesheriff, so important, is referred to by name in the treaty which has been laid on our table; it is the condition on which Tut key is admitted within the pale of civilised :elurope; it will give to the Eu ropean Powers, if it be not observed, either collectively or individually, a right of remonstrance ; and I do not think, all circumstances considered, a better or more sa lutary arrangement could have been made. More than that I believe there was error in the conduct of Lord Stratford do Radcliffe in the earlier part of the transac tions with General Williams, but will the house recollect in justice to Lord Stratford, what were the efforts he made after the commencement of 1855? I believe he was earnest and unremitting in his exertions to obtain for General Williams every possible assistance from the Divan. Well, sir, under ail these circumstances, considering his ability, the l eng th o f hi s serv ices, his conduct, his cha racter, I am disp ose d to say that the Horatian maxim with regard t o poe t r y i s eq ually applicable to political services— " Vermin übi plum intent in carmine, non ego panels " Offender macuds, quas nut incuria fudit, "Ant humane parum cavil nature." This accusation, I grant., more particularly applies to Lord Aberdeen's Goveinfuent, because the offence was committed i❑ the beginning of the year 1855 or at the close of the year 1854. But if it be au oror tint Lord Stratford was not recalled, had I remained is member of the Admi nistration I should have partaken of the councils of my lleagues, and I should have resisted to the ut►uost the e 11 of Lord Stratford. I come now to the second point, which is the omission of sondin; aid to Kati in th e sum mer of 1855. It is i urpossible to overlook the earnest de sire of the Turkish Government to send assistance to the army beleaguered at Kars, and more Particul irly I Must advert to the recommendation and conduct of Orner Pacha. I think gentlemen who have read the minute of Omer Pacha must .be of opinion that his abilities in council hardly fall short of his distinguished merits in the field. But, sir, I have already stated that both the Eogli , l and French Governments, though they attached infinite im portance to the defence of Kars, as I think rightly, re 4arded that operation as altoget her secondary to the capture if Sebastopol. That was the primary object, and it would have been fully and weakness to disregard the primary object in the hope of promoting or even carrying a second. Will the house bear in mind the precise time when Omer Pacha made his recommendation? It was after the 18th of June—a day ever memorable in the annals of this country, and not tarnished, as I contend, by the adverse circumstances of the 18th of June, 1855. Still that day in that year is remarkable for the failure of a great military effort on the part both of the French and English armies, and it cannot be matter of surprise that after such an event the generals and admirals raspensible for the safety of the united army should have hesitated in weakening the forces immediately present at that great military operation, the siege of Sebastopol. I to not think it has been read, but it appears tome very important that the letter of General Simpson with refer ence to the refusal of the wishes, stated to them by Omer Pasha, to withdraws, portion of the forces then under their .:ourbined command, should be brought to the recollection of the house. This letter is dated the 16th July, about a month after the assault on the Redan, and a considerable time before the brilliant success which carried the Malak hoff and ended in the taking of Sebastopol. I will not trouble the house by reading the whole, but allow me to read a portion of this letter:— "At a epidemic° which was assembled at the French headquarters on Saturday the 14th, .at the request of Omer Pasha, and at which he, General Pelissier, General La Mar mora, Vice-Admiral Sir E. Lyons, Vice-Admiral Bruat, Rear- Admiral Stewart, and myself were present, his Highness set forth his reasons and views on the subject in question ; he also produced a very large sheet of paper, whin contained, is he affirmed, the instructions of his Government ; but, on being asked for a translation of which, lie said that it would take a fortnight to make one. The arguments used by Omer Pasha were those set forth in the correspondence, and failed to produce any effect on the minds of the other members of the Conference, who all, without exception, entertain the strongest objection to the withdrawal of any troops from the Crimea at this moment." We have, therefore, the united opinion of all the admirals ~ nd all the generals that not only from Bal. klava, but from Kadikol, Kortch, and Eupatoria, under the circum stances which then existed, it was not expedient to with draw a single man. * Omer Pasha, being dissatisfied with the decision, went to Constantinople to obtain a reversal of it, and General Simpson writes to Lord Stratford— "l earnestly, therefore, beg your Excellency to use your powerful influence with the Porte to cause our opinion to prevail over that of his Highness; for great pnblie interests ere at stake, and serious consequences might result from his success." iarely, sir, in the face of that appeal we may well under stand how very unwilling the Governments at Paris and at London must have been to reverse a decision, taken on the spot by the most competent authorities, by orders di rectly opposed to ,what on the spot was thought necessary, tot only for the honour and success, but absolutely for the safety, of the forces there employed. (cheers.) It must lot be concealed from the h use, and it has not been con cealed, as I think rightly, by the - responsible Ministers of the Crown, that there was a great indisposition on the part of the French Government to favour any operations else where until success at Sebastopol had been obtained. It may be a matter of question whether that disinclination was nut carried to excess ; still, in operations of such deli cacy and difficulty, it will be a bold measure if the House , f Commons, after such a result, pass condemnation on the Government, upon the exercise of discretion in very nice, trying, and difficult circumstances. (Cheers.) Again, let us see what the great master of the art of war ir, our time, r•he Duke of Wellington, says. Genezal Cooke held a coin nand at Cadiz; the Duke was commanding on the banks , f the Douro, and in one of his instructions ho said, " It inexpedientto give peremptory orders from a distance. I would not do it. I would not gladly, if they were given to me, submit to them." I do not stand hare to say that iiistakes have not been committed. Ido not believe that gentlemen on the Treasury bench, considering the large extent covered by thesetransactions, will bo prepared to .ay that no errors have been committed. It is iuipo eible that in such immense transactions some oversights shoula eot occur. I say frankly, I think there was too much of telegraphic communications and telegraphic orders. (Cheers.) I agree with the hon. and learned member for 7sNuiskillen in disapproving that particular telegraphic lespatch, which gave peremptory orders to abandon Kars' and Erzeroum and fall back upon Trebizond ; and if recommendations were to be conveyed by telegraph at dl I should not have recommended any other recommenia ion to Gen. Simpson than to reineinner Kars. That was .ot the instruction, but, perhaps, the end would have been :leach happier had it been so. Still, lam bound to say !_hat, whatever those instructions may have been, it was eutta open to the Government to yield to the •strong re presentations made by the commanders of the allied forces, sad not allow any detschuam.;,s to be sent. I cannot fail, eowever i to express my sympathy with Gen. Williams and my admiration of his conduct. It is heartreuding to ~wed some of these despatches. (Hear.) He says that he ~ hought his army was left doomed to destruction, that ho was absolutely forgotten, that his position was isolated anti neglected ; and yet, while he felt the neglect, his manly end noble spirit, nothing daunted, persevered in spite of every disappointment. Hope even was dead within him, yet did not that spirit so entirely fail that he was unwill ing to meet the enemy to whom he was opposed with only three of his countrymen try his side, and lead a Turkish army, under circumstances of unexampled difficulty to almost unexampled victory. (dear, and ,Cheers.) Theie may be many things to regret in toe war now happily closed, but do not let us under such cir tiumstanc Acaase to be proud of the noble conduct of a handfill of 'our countrymen on two occasions of almost equal danger and difficulty. I look in vain to the annals of modern warfare for a parallel to the defence of Silis tria or Kars—both in the main (owing to the courage, the skill, the constancy, and the example of British officers) leading to that triumphant success which, when we come to confer with him who was our enemy, anti is now, I hope, our friend—long may he continue to be so—l mean the - Russian—will tell us that the defence of Silistria Lid Kars rendered the English name, with which they were associated, illustrious and ever memorable iu the recollection of his countrymen. (Cheers.) I said it was heartrending to think what Gen. Williams must have endured. Here is a trifling instance. It is said the honour of the second class of the Bath is conferred upon him. He receives it with a faint smile, his spirits are sunk, and that noble heat is almost broken. (Outsets.) I may be wrong in expressing my opinion, but I do not think, as yet, the gratitude of this country to that distinguished. man has been sufficiently marked. The second class of the Bath is a proud distinction, but I cannot think his services are rightly measured by that distinction. The thanks of Parliament, considering the failure, cannot, according to precedent, be giv e n, but, if nay noble friend will advise her :Majesty, the fountain of all grace and favour to the mili tary profession, to confer some solid mark, in which we may partake, in reward of the services of Gen. Williams, I do not believe there is a man in this house who will not hail it with satisfaction. (Loud cheers.) Now, sir, I shall be asked, am I then prepared to say that no errors were committed ? I have already shown that some errors were committed • it will now be my du t y to p oint out others. I have read a despatch of the Duke of Newcastle, in which it is suggested that medical aid might be afforded to the army at Kars and that pecuniary assistance might be given. And this brings me to the question of pecuniary assistance. And here I confess I think that some blame is due to the Government. (Opposition cheers.) It will be, perhaps, contended, that I and some of my colleagues in - Lord Aber deen's Government who left office were opposed to the Turkish loan. Sir, this is not the occasion to argue that question over again. But before I left Lord Aberdeen's Government, and ever since , I have been opposed to the system of loans. I remember that injunctiou, which is valuable to nations as to individuals : " Neither a lender nor a borrower be, For loan oft loses both itself and friend." (Loud cheers.) I was opposed to the joint and several liability for the Turkish loan. I objected to the mortgage of Egypt. I retain that objection. I think that the sub ject of the loan may give rise to grave discussions between France and England. (Hear.) But I never was opposed, and I do not thinkthat any rational man would be opposed to giving pecuniary assistance. (Cheers.) I differ from the member for Aylesbury on some points, but I agree with him in one poiat, and I do thick that a credit might have been given to General Williams, either upon our Ambas sador at Coustautinoi:le or upon the Treasury in Englane for a moderate :omouut, and that for a 8,4111 of 10,1,0J0/. the army at Kars might have been supplied with all the provisions -necessary. (Cheers.) I am also of opinion with the lion and leaf ned gentleman (Mr. Whiteside) that if a few hundred canary had been sent to Kars, they weuld, as General Willi ams says i n d eacr ibi ng hi s brilliant vic tory, have enabled him to destroy the Russian army. Again, I think tlint although General Williams had guns in suffici en t quan l . a ty, yet t h a t w h en h e as k e d for afew hundred artillerymen and cavalry they might have been sent to him. I cannot but believe that in the early part of the summer of 1855, without detaching any troops from the Crimea, there m!,ght have been sent from Constanti nople to Erzeroum some assistance of this kind which would have borne meet essential results. Here is another point upon which I hiwe a strong opinion. I: it wore in exi,edient to weaken the force on the plateau in front of Sebastopol, still there were no insuperable objections to meeting the wishes of Omer Pasha and allowing him to withdraw from that position the Turkish veterans he was accustomed to comunaid, and supplying their place by the Turkish Contingent. (Hear, hear.) It may be said that the troops were not sufficiently disciplined, but the house will pardon me if I again refer to the highest authority— the Duke of Welling7t3n. He had experience in these matters, Then in Portugal he had to use similar tr sops constantly, when they were very imperfectly dis c ipli ne d, and he has put upon record in his own pithy manner a dictum which the house w;11 allow me to read. It refers to the effect of lone; training and discipli ne upon suc h troops compared wii,h their being well paid, well fed, and well cared for, and it shows that these attentions go far in making troops efficient in the field. The Duke is writ ing o f Spanish troops when under British officers. His letter is dated : " Lisaca, July 25, 1813. ,‘ The Spanish tY:oops do not want discipline, if by disci pline is meant instruction, so much as they do a system of order, which can only be founded on regulaipay and food,• and good care and clothing." Now, the Turkish Contingent had these advantages for some time, a nd my own judgment would be that, at that time, when the question of withdrawing the Turkish troops from BalrklavE4 was mooted, their place might have b e en advant ageous l y and sufficiently supplied by t h e T ur ki s h Contingent so officered. (Hear.) The Dukegoes on to say:— " These BrL:,ish officers could not give them, and, notwith standing that the Portuguese are now the fighting cocks of the army, I b, slieve we owe their merits more to the care we have taken of their pockets and bellies than to the instruc tion we have ; iveu them." Showing that, the opinion of the Duke of Wellington was that instruct ion and long training with reference to the efficiency of foreign armies are to a considerable exteiit supplied by "British pay, feeding, and. care. The Turkish Contingent laving had these advantages might, I think, have been a ant up to Balsklava so as to have liberated the troops of 0 mer Pasha. And, sir, there is no use in not very frank, y stating my full opinion to the house, sine,: they are so indulgent as to listen to me. (Hear.) I have another ot tjectiou which is of a somewhat d e li ca t e charac ter. I an r bound to say that, with every desire to main tain the ..I!rench alliance in its full integrity and to run no risk of a inisunder-itanding with that country, and feeling bound to admit that the Emperor of that great nation hal acted with constant fidelity—(cheers) —and with a degre,, of good faith. and firmness that entitles him to the grati, ude of this conntrY, Yet I cannot but think that too much. wasp.onced, dto the prej u di ces w hi c h, I mus t say , were no t well founded on the part of our French allies. After Sebas• topol had f dlen and after Kars had fallen there was the Turkish Government displaying an earnest, natural, and anxious desire to withdraw a portion of their army fro m the Crimea, and to occupy Trebizond without delay aft er the fall of Kars, in order to prevent the danger of the fur' ther advance of the Russian army. As late as the 14th of December, Lord Stratford writes to the Earl of Clarendon to say : " I learn from M. de Tbouvenel tbae permission bas at length arriv e d f rom P ar i s f or Marshal Pol . • 0 assent to theoleparture of the Egyptian infantry toria for Trebizond. lam informed, however,. Turkish commander had declared his determination bark the troops without waiting for any farther comm tion." This bears incidentally upon a part of the case of the o°. vernment. They have been blamed for adhering to the view taken by General Willie ' himself, and preferring the auxiliary troops from Turk to the division of Omer Pacba. The local knowled, he hon. member for Aylesbury has male this peifec telligitile 'and he Ilse Willis shown thet in the early part of the summer the road from Trebizoud to Maoism was more - direct in a military Point of view, and more suitable except for artillery. But After Sebastopol had fallen, the question was whether a portion of the army ought n o t t o evacua t e t h e C r i mea an d go to Trehizond. Hear what Sir W. Codrington, our CO W. . mander-in-Chief, says with reference to this subject' Writing on the 10th December, he says : " I wrote to Marshal Pelissier in the general Wee ee e your letter, expressing t o hi m th e great object it S o °7 to be to get th e Turkien troops to Tr e biz o ud, and Lila"; if done at ell, it should b e d one a t once, and offering In ' assistance, if I could, by communications with our Davi,' farther this object. H is answer was, that he could n___°: consent to their leaving E upa t nr i a w i t h ou t th e eXPre'" sanction of the Emperor of the French." ' (Hear, hear.) That is to say, that the opinion formed by the general comm a ndi ng -i u - c hi e f , b acked b y t h e wanes" desire of the Turkish Government, was dependent on the will of the Emperor at Paris, communicated by tele' graph. This is delicstegrounds (cheers)—but I speak Wit be every desire to show the utmost deference to theEnsperor 0 the French. Lord Stratford wrote to say - " The Turks are . sadly mortified by the emb argo which appeare to ha/ been laid on the E g ypti an t roops at E upator i a ." Th a i feeling of soreness and disappointment was both nat ure and well-founded. (Cheers.) But I may be aske d-- " Why, if yo u fi n d th ese f au l ts, do you not vote for ° so le motion of the hon. and learned member for Enniskillen' A (Opposition cheers.) Th a t i s a f a i r quest i on, an d I '' proceed to answer it. I will first take the amendment of my bon. friend the member for Dorsetebire (Mr. K. S, e Y', mer). If the previou s question hail been moved 01 ,:e . " early stage of the di scuss i on , I d o not k now whether, vi"- the view I take, I should not have voted for it. But sine . the discussion has been opened, I cannot regard th e amendment of my bon. f r i en d exactly- in the light of motion for the previous question ; although it is a res eal ' able amendment, as ki ng , not that no verdict shall be Pr e. nonneed, but that thre shall be delay in prono uncing : verdict ; and he as k s f or d e l ay upon th e assumption tit we are ignorant of the terms of peace, and that we ong to be made acquainted with them, and to consider th e before we pronounce our verdict. With respect to tea t original motion, I cannot regard the question whi ch I i raises as an abstract question ; even if I did so regard it , I could not bring-myself —it may b e f rom pre j u di c e, it leeen be from kindly feelings towards old friends—to sag. as t abstract propositi on , th a t I thi n k L ord C laren d on deficie nt in foresight or L or d P a l merston defic i ent in enerree (Cheers.) But thie is no t an a b s t rac t quest i on ;it Ten s. Y. regarded with r e f erence b o th t o c i rcumstances an d to tin', Now, with regard to circu ms t ances, th ere was g reat trl tie , and justice in the opinion pronounced by an it - 01 14 % he and intelligent sp ec t a t or, G enera l M ansf i e ld, tbat„" e e cause of the fall of K ars i s qu it e o b v i ous. H e says Le it was necessary, until Sebastopol had been taken, t° 'This concentrating in front of Sebastopol every English, e v e e t French, every Sardinian, every Turkish soldier, tha t could be obtained; that the campaigns in. the C e rl l. , and on the Asiatic frontier, including Kars, must ue ,i e e garded as a whole; that the centre and key of the e n we r e . operation was Sebastopol, to which Kars, however iule t tent, was but second-o-y ; and that the result was no tt:d all surprising we succeeded at the point where our n 0 it s energies are concentrated, and we failed at the e setron' g •ii to which we could not direct any assi,tance. - G ° th a t - Mansfield adds that he had predicted the result; but' :4. to the gallant feat of arms by which Kars was enableene hold out prev en ted th e a d vance o f the Russian aroY i n e- et yard further th an K ars , an d th a t if Sebostopol bar'-cle f:Olen we should, this spring, in consequence of the the w ith 0, fence of Kars, have o p ene d t h e campa i gn in A.sis brightest prospects. Th en , i n cons id er i ng this. nr: le s te time is not to be disre gar d e d. • I d o no t w i s h to aute c erf e rs the discussion upon the articles of peaee, but I eann ° "a e y, get that peace is ratified, that it was proclaimed yesterhese that we are cognisent of its terms. and, looking at t o b. terms, I must say that, in my humble judgment, all fu llyt h ? jects, the principal objects of the war, have been e achieved, and that the peace i s ho noura bl e to the eou nt r; (Cheers.) Without was ti ng th e ti me o f th e house by ern teeing at any len g th i n t o this subject , I must- give the T h e a short summary of the terms we have obtained. g the Principalities—the occupation of which by Russia w e ree p pretext, the cause of the war—are rescued from the g bie; of Russia. and to them is added the half of Beeea ra d to the fort of Ismail, -long o ccu pi e d b y Russia, is r estore t, ii the Principalities ; th e f ree nav i ga ti on o f the D3Sn b o is guaranteed by Europe ; th e commerce o f the Eulle e is opened to the world ; the Basilan fleet in the Erine„ annihilated, no military ars e n a l s on the c oast of the -7•30",,,, iue, no military fortress on it s E as t ern s hore Itietpe to been destroyed, are to b e re b u ilt, th e s t an ding Sweden, Burnam:lnd and the Aland. Isles, is not again 7 be fortified ; the standin g menace t o T ur k e y, Sebastop ol ' is in ruins; Kara is restored to the T ur k s without an equivalent, progress of R uss i an aggran di sem ent is 91. . rested, the ind e p en d ence and integrity of Turkey 51. " sesured under the guarantee and panoply of EuroPe• (Cheers.) These are the leading conditions of peace; I have , without p ar ti a lity, selpsured wherever I thought censure was duo ; but I MK it, would be on' generous to the Administration which has conducted the war to a conclusion, upon such a day as this, under divan.. stances such as I have feebly d e sc r ib e d, t o d ec l are that it altogether unworthy of the confidence of the country an y hes failed in foresight and energ y. F or th ese resioni ' shall neither vote for the amendment nor for the neoti °e Mr. DISRAELI said—The right hen. gentleman the member for Carlisle has this night tempered justice sei til . mercy. (Laughter.) He has spoken against the g inl h e e ters, and he intends to vote for them. (Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman seems to have put with considerable , force and Parliamentary experi ence th e ma i n po ints th at tall against the Ministers; but, remembering that the ; the n wire once his colt:segues and still his friends he says h i will resist the irresistible inference that on this oee eli e ° 6 they are to blame. They are, in the opinion of the right hen. gentleman, sinners to be condemned, but that , eee s.. .. strectelly, conshlere I, they are innocent. (Laughter.) ".- have just terminated a great war, and just concluded a ; important peace, and during that space of time an °ger : has occurred w hi c h , i n t h e view of many persons, has e-: orcieed an infl uence on public affairs, and has been at tended with circumstances which enlist the deepest ° ni pathy of the peopl e o f thi s coun t ry. T here h as been aX;tB; .-, valent belief th a t men dist i nguished by all those enalre- and virtues which Englishmen are prone to admire ha" been deserted by the Government ; and now, after a for. bearance not mor e th an d ue to t h e state of t h e co unter a nd , to the embar rass i ng d ut i es of the Administrat i on —after id forbearance which reflects credit on this house, WO are to . because the att en ti on o f P ar li ament i s calle d to the se elf• cumstances, and because we presume in the House of CO!' mons to discuss this question ofenational and universal Of terest, which fir a l o ng pe r i o d h as t ouc h e d the hearts,. of the whole country, th a t we a re t a ki ng a p ar t which Or . tion only could have inspired, and the most s al t. fish and sor lid sentiments only could have prowl ~,, d. (Hear, hear.) Before the main business of tu night commenced an hon. member rises—a member for a Scotch burgh, the member fo r Gr e e noc k, an d he says that this debate is only continued for the sake of a few speec hes ' and that it is -entirely a factious movement. Is that the ;,,ide this country of the people of England ? Is there a man '` c i . - re country who does not feel that the siege and fall of " a " ought, and deserves to be, the subject of Parliamentary dig' cession. (Cheers.) It is not only that one Scotch mew her who presumes to give this opinion on the conduct of the House of Commons. The house still echoes with the Pia °. Live oration of the member for Ayr ; and what is the can ° why he addressed such language as he did to gentlemen °9 this (the Opposition) side of the house ? What is hes Vie s " ante ? His reason against the continuance of this debate l e ' that he will thereby be prevented from introducing a hi ll ' And what is the history of that bill ? Some fortnight elf o another golden opportunity was lost by that hon. and learne d gentleman. He came down to the house to expound his legislative opinions, but unfortunately there was no h ouse, (Hear, and a laugh.) Really I do not think that there is a n / great grievance on the part of the hon. member. He ha s ha d his chance, and a member having a bill to introduce and n°, " making a house is not a member who ought t o complain e( an adjournment of the debate. But th ere i s a thi r d reer ebe.f for Scotland, who represents the capital of that g reat cow l• try, the successor, and, I believe, the successful rival, of one of the greatest ornaments of British literature, and fornserlY one of the gfeatest ornaments of this house—l mean the lion' member for Edinbu gh. He declares all this discussion to be vain and worthless, and says it is only an assault on th e Treasury bench. Does ho mean to say_ that the° is in the city of Edinburgh, which, by some strati/1 anomaly, he represents—(a laugh) -such a total Want of sympathy with all. that has happened at Kobe' with those strange and romantic incidents which will h e remembered when the war is forgotten, and - when O il treaty of peace is a dusty document—does he mean to oaf that there is in that city such an.extraordinary a b s ence of sympathy with the gallant Williams, and all those herds achievements which form the subjeet of discussion this night i (Hear, hear.) Does he represent faithfully the feelings of h ie constituents when he says that any discussion on this subje ct is vain, futile, and selfish ? I have a higher opinion of t he educated, intelligent, and accomplished inhabitants of modern Athens. (Hear, and l aug ht er ,) , I d o no t b e li eve that th e hon. meelber on this point faithfully represents his constite• ents, for I am sure the subject of our discussion must W it° among them the deepest interest. (Hear) But unfit -tie" nately, it is not only of such small deer as these vitupere ti T „ e members of the sister kingdom (a laugh) that wo bave _ee complain to-night. ' A Cabinet Minister, whose speech , I ar., bound to say (as he spoke of contrast), was most favoure w e C a ter!! contrasted with the speech of another member of the in this debate, because he did justice to the subject hel ee eq• us, and because he least admitt e d its importance, describe this inotien as an attempt to upset the Ministry.' should not have touched on that point. I think it beee ne the the House of Commons to have some more clear idea of it has position of an Opposition in this country, and of the clutieosule. has to fulfill, than appears to be prevalent among some °the gentlemen, and even among right hon. gentlemen " duty Ministerial bench. I confess it appears to me that th they of an Opposition is to vindicate its principles, when'theut I Wilk I: deem it necessary and convenient, and to assert them sel 0 the slightest reference to what may be the consequen ce of ea . division. I think, in the second place, that it is the . Pe e ' r ... mount and peremptory duty of an Opposition to offer its ticisms ou public affairs, when they th,iik that the conduct.e°2 the Ministry demands observation, without the slightest_ r as _ ferencc to the consequenc e s of a division. If the duty of a Opposition is only to be tested by the success which u p sets ositioA Ministry, it is very easy to see that the sphere of opr ..,, ;r