The Sun. — London, England, 1834-05-23 00:00:00

that when we opened the Market to cheap papers all kinds of trash would be poured in, those who said it were not aware of the trash that now existed, that was now circulated in defiance of your laws, of your fines, and of your gaols. ( Hear, hear.) During the present administration from 300 to 400 persons had ben im prisoned for merely selling unstamped publications in the streets, had been punished With the utmost rigour, . sent to herd with felons and the basest outcasts of so ciety, and what had been the cousequence ? Had they put down the p ublications themsel ve s ? N o I Th ey h a d only raised their authors into importance among that part of the population they addressed, and instead of silencing fanaticism, they had exalted the ltnatic into the martyr ; if there was one true exiom in the world it was this--that opinion ehly can put down opinion ; and if bad doctrines Were afloat, they could only refute them by the propagation of good doctrines, and therefore it was Wisely said the other day by a noble lord, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in, answer to Lord Winehilsea, who urged him to prosecute the unstamped publications, " that prosecution might only give them a double publicity." But in what a condition, then, were the govtrenment placed ? They left a law on their sta tute-book to which they dared not apply--a law which, 'when dormant, gave a monopoly to the disaffected ; and when exerted, only fed still more the disaffection. If they did not use it, they were injured ; if they did use it, they were injured doubly. They were like a man who kept a h':.ii-dog so fierce that it was good for nothing, it worried - both friend and foe ; when chained, tte robber escaped ; when let loose, it turned upon its master. ( Hear.) And a worthy task it was for the minister of England to be waging this petty was' with bill-stickers and hawkers ! To let the paper itself go free, to pounce upon the man who sells it, — to level the thunders of the law upon some ragged itinerant, some pedlar of the press, and then skulk behind the Stamp-office commissioners, and say, They did the deed—it is not we who prosecute— it is our agents at the Stamp-office." Miserable sub terfuge ! pitiful excuse ( Hear, hear.) The mi nisters had the law in their own hands, and they were answerable for every prosecution instituted in the name of the law but how much worse was it, how much more indefensible, if they who at tacked cheap knowledge were themselves the mem bers of a society for the diffusion of cheap knowledg:e i If it was with a penny magazine in one hand that they attempted to strike down the penny newspapers with the other, it was carrying into the state the jealousies of trade; it was saying, " We will give you information, but whoever else gives it to you, him we will punish and destroy ; we will tell you about animals and insects, and give you pictures of ruins and churches, with all such infantine trumpery— the hobbyhorse and rattle of education ; but whoever unfolds to you the secrets of your laws, the machinery of your state, the mighty events that inspire the age and animate the world, him we have the stamp com missioners to prosecute, and the laws of our reformed parliament to condemn." ( Hear, hear.) But then came an important question—if newspapers were allowed to be cheap, would they have good doctrines propagated in answer to the bad ? He had every authority for saying they would. (Here the hon. member quoted a speech of Dr. Birkbeck, in which he mentioned that Dr. Arnold, of Rugby, Dr. Whately, of Oxford, and other men of high eminence, were willing to instruct the poor on matters of trade, &c., if the stamp duty were removed.) In fact, they might perceive by the sale of the Penny Magazine, and of Chambers' excellent Edinburgh Journal, that the poor had a disposition to instruct themselves, if the instruc tion were only placed within their reach. Nay, what to others seemed most dry was often to them most in teresting ( Hear), for the poor lived by labour and by trade, and all that enlightened them as to the direc tion of labour and of trade had a charm, and even an amusement, which they were scarcely able to compre hend. In looking to France, where newspapers were so cheap in comparison to ours, and yet where a much smaller proportion of the poor were educated, they could not but observe, Ist, that a much larger number of the eminent men of that country were engaged in in structing the people through the medium of the press, and 2d, the difference in the number of journals in the two countries devoted to solid instruction upon useful points. Besides its political papers, Paris had 10 journals devoted to advertisements, judicial notices, and commercial announcements ; 20 journals devoted to jurisprudence, 8 to education, 21 to science, and '22 to medicine. Who could doubt that these were of the most eminent advantage to the people? Who could assert that this country, embracing a much larger read ing public, would not have at least an equal number if newspapers were equally cheap, and it was -per mitted by the intermixture of news to attract the poor to the graver portions of the journal ? ( Hear, hear.) But the advantage of cheap newspapers was not only in giving to the poor such instruction as the news papers might contain, but it was even greater in habituating the minds of the poor to read and to apply themselves to information generally. It was a re markable fact, that nearly all the popular reading so cieties in the kingdom were first formed by the desire to read the newspapers. In a part of the evidence on the late poor law commission, one very intelligent witness being asked if he did not think the Penny Magazine had been useful in giving an intellectual bias to the poor, answered, " Undoubtedly; but I think cheap newspapers would do much more good, in training their minds to the desire of reading, and paving the way for general information." Thus, then, the ad vantages of cheap legal newspapers were, first, that to every bad opinion a good opinion (in the natural effect of competition) was opposed—that the poor obtained all the instruction that newpapers contained—that they were thereby stimulated to seek other information of a more solid cast, and he might add, that by newspapers alone they learned the nature of the laws, and the punishments forcrime. This, then, was a tax operating in favour of bad opinion and against good opinion— operating against information, not of politics only, but of laws; not against knowledge, but virtue; it gave perquisites to the gaoler and fees to the hangman ; sowing the seed in ignorance that they might reap the harvest in crime ! ( Hear, hear.) The noble lord al lowed it to be a bad tax, yet he did nothing to repeal it 1 ( Hear.) Shame on the reformed parliament if it sanctioned these laws any longer ! When he looked round that house, and' observed the apathy with which they listened to this subject, he could not withstand drawing this parallel. In the worst times of modern France, with a Bourbon on the throne, with a Villele in the administration, when it was proposed by a de spotic government to a servile Chamber to tax the press in France as it was now taxed in England, in order to prevent the circulation of knowledge, and to put down by the tax-gatherer the enlightenment they dared not assail by the soldier, the whole Chamber, subservient as it was, rose against the proposal ! They would not war upon knowledge ! Were Englishmen less free or less enlightened that they should support with patience that whieh in the French Chamber had beenrejected with indignation and scorn? In the remarks he addressed to the house in the session before last he had proved, he thought, to the satisfaction of the noble lord, that both by the evidence in this country and that through Europe generally, they found that ignorance and crime universally went together ; and that on ex amining the education of felons committed to gaol and sentenced to transportation or death, the vast majority of criminals possessed not even the elemen tary knowledge of reading or writing ; this fact had been universally borne out by the evidence on secon dary punishments—on the poor laws commissions—on the Sabbath committee, and if this then were true, he told the noble lord that it was not enough to improve the laws, to amend the representation, if be continued taxes which he himself acknowledged were a pre mium to ignorance, and through ignorance the avenue to death. It was said that the schoolmaster was abroad—he saw his rod, but not his books. They seemed to reverse the old story of Dionysius ; the ty rant had not become a schoolmaster, but the school master had :become a tyrant. When Louis X VI. was condemned to the scaffold, his defenders besought the judges to recollect by how small a majority that unfortunate monarch was condemned. " True;" re plied the judges, " but it is by a small majority that the most important decrees are enacted." " Yes," said one solitary voice in that assembly ; "but de crees, if unjust, can be repealed ; but the life of a man can never be restored." So he said to the noble lord. If in his high capacity of Minister of State he committed some error in mere legislation, the error could be retrieved ; but if, aft er being duly warned, he suffered one peasant's mind to be misled, and one peasant's life lost, by the dark ness and demoralization of these laws, he com mitted a fault which could not be atoned--a bad law might be repealed, but the life of a man could never be restored. He would say no more of this tax itself, but would come at once to the substitute he proposed for it ; he proposed to repeal the stamp duty on newspapers altogether, and, in the first place, he suggested the propriety of laying a cheap postage not upon newspapers only, but upon all tracts, periodicals, and works of every description under a certain weight : he proposed that this postage should be equal, what-1 ever might be the distance, so that the remote parts of the Country should possess the same advantage in ob taining knowledge as those more connected with the metropolis, and therefore requiring information less. He did not know that on this point he could add much to the calculations that he had the honour to submit to the house in the session before last. He begged leave to say that those calculations bad never been to his knowledge contradicted or impugned. The debate was veil widely published ; several thousand copies were circulated ; it was submitted to many practical men ; despite this publicity, despite the notice it re ceived generally from the press, no contradiction was given to the facts he urged. He had therefore a right to assume, until such contradiction was made and proved, that his calculations were correct. [ Here the hon. member was interrupted by the Usher of the Black Rod appearing at the table, and summoning the house to attend the Royal Commis sioners in the House of Peers. After an absence of about a quarter of an hour the Speaker and the mem bers by whom he was accompahied returned. On taking the chair he stated that they bad been to the House of Peers and had heard the Royal assent given by commission to several public and private bills, for which see Lords' report.] Mr. E. L. BULWER resumed—ln America, he Observed, owing to the absence of that tax, newspapers were so numerous that there was one weekly paper to every fourth person. He would only take half that proportion for this country. He would suppose that if they abolished this tax, there would be a weekly newspaper only to every eighth person. The result would be, for the population of Great Britain and Ire land, 150,000,000 sheets of weekly newspapers throughout the year. Now two-thirds of the London papers (it appeared by the returns) were sent at pre sent through the post. Suppose for one moment that this ratio continued with the increased numbers, what would be the amount at Id. postage ? Why the amount would stand thus :—Postage of weekly pa pers 416,6661. But this was for weekly papers only. Now calculate the daily papers, those published two or three times a week ; calculate also the tracts, the prospectuses, the pamphlets, sent through the post, and reckon all these only at as much aga.n—the total would be 833,3321.—that is to say, the produce would be just double the amount of the tax he now asked them to repeal, and this calculation was formed upon the supposition that the newspapers in this country, if as cheap as those in America, would yet be only in proportion to the population one-half of the number of the American papers, and this must be allowed to be a moderate calculation, when we consider the capital is greater in this country, the printers' labour is cheaper, and that everywhere the appetite for knowledge, even among the poorest part of the people, is on the daily increase. But the noble lord made, on a for mer occasion, one objection to this plan ; he argued, that since the newspapers would be sold without the charge of postage in London, the effect of the plan would be to tax the provinces for the benefit of the metropolis. With all due submission to him he thought he had here suffered himself to be led away by a com mon place fallacy. In the first place, the postage was not a tax upon newspapers, it was the price of car riage ' • it was the necessary result of living at a dis tance from town that the carriage of anything must be paid for, not newspapers only, but books, luggage, parcels of all descriptions. This was the unavoidable consequence of situation ; and you might just as well call it a tax to charge a man for the carriage of coals from Newcastle to London as to call it a tax to charge a man for the carriage of a newspaper from London to Newcastle. In the second place, if they thought it a hardship to pay a penny for a newspaper in the shape of postage, how much greater was the hardship to pay 4d. in the shape of duty ? if they disliked to tax the provinces a penny, ought they not to dislike much more to tax them 4d. ? or did they fancy that when the cost was one-fourth part of what it was at present, that they would fancy that they had any right to com plain ? Besides, it would in effect weigh pretty evenly on both the metropolis and the large provincial towns, for at present not one large manufacturing town could afford a daily paper. Take away the tax, and every large town would have its paper ; that, at all events, the town would enjoy without the burden of post age ; and in the large towns many papers would be devoted to particular branches of commerce or trade, which would be important to those who lived in the metropolis, so that if many papers were sent from London, many also would be sent to it. Thus, then, by the postage alone, and according to a moderate calculation, he had attempted to prove that they would receive double the amount of that trumpery tax ; he had endeavoured to prove also that the only objection against it was fallacious. But that he might not seem wedded to any particular plan, he would now, if the noble lord wished, concede to him all he could desire; he would suppose that the postage of newspapers would not bring in what was expected ; he would suppose that it brought in nothing, but merely covered its ex penses,—nay, he would throw the whole scheme aside altogether. Well, he should be on equally strong ground, for by the mere removal of this tax, three other sources of revenue suddenly arose ; the first, in deed, depended also upon the plan of postage—he meant the profits arising from the postage, not of newspapers, but of all light works under a certain weight, all tracts, circulars, &c. He did not think the noble lord was aware of what an immense source of revenue this might become. In the first place, look at all the religious tracts that would be circulated if they might be sent to every part of the country at Id. each. Look at the number of societies of every de scription, scientific, trading, moral, religious, that would correspond by such circulars; observe at public sales alone the expenses sustained in advertising. Every auc tioneer, every Robins of the rostrum, would send forth circulars announcing the treasures he was about to dis pose of. Take the prospectuses of booksellers alone. In a very able letter which had been addressed to the noble lord by Mr. Whiting, head of a respectable printing establishment, in the support of postage for light works, he calculated that of publishers' prospec tuses (if they came within the weight admissible) 2,000 postages would be created daily. Another source of revenue by simply repealing that tax would arise from the great increase of advertisements. Most of the newspapers set up would obtain some advertise ments, more or less ; some of them would probably be devoted to peculiar trades and callings, and into such papers a vast increase of advertisements connected with those trades and callings would be poured. At present the reduction of the advertisement duty was not so profitable to the public as it ought to be, because the monopoly of the London papers enabled them to keep up a disproportionably high price on advertise ments ; the effect of a vast competition would be to lower the proprietor's profit on advertisements,to make advertisements considerably cheaper, considerably more plentiful, and, therefore, while most advantageous to the public, most profitable also to the revenue. But the principal source of profit that would arise to the exchequer from the mere repeal of this tax, was in the increase to the paper duty alone, and this, he was persuaded, would be so enormous, as of itself to do more than compensate to the revenue. Just let them compute what the increase of the paper duty would be. ( Hear, hear, hear.) He supposed that they abolished the tax, and made papers as cheap as they were in the United States ; they would have— should he say as many ? newspapers in proportion to the population. No, only half as many as there were in the United States. But there, to every 10,000 in habitants, there was a daily paper, selling at least 2,000 copies. He supposed that, in Great Britain and Ireland, there was a daily paper to every 20,000 inhabitants, selling at the same proportion. What would be the result ? Why, for a population of 24,000,000 you would have 720,000,000 sheets of paper published yearly. Now, then,_ papers pay a duty of 225. per 1,000 copies—let him say 20s.—that was 1,0001. for every 1,000,000 papers ; the produce, then, would be 720,0001. for the paper duty of the 720,000,000 papers ; but at present there were only 30,000,000 papers published throughout the year—that was, the profit they yielded to the paper duty was only 30,0001.; deduct that 30,000/. from 720,0001., and there remained for the extra paper duty, for the new profit to the re venue, 690,000/. or about 150,000/. more than the whole profit of the tax he asked them to repeal. So that he could now say to the noble lord, " Throw aside, if you please, the plan of the postage ; believe, if you like it, that not a paper would be sent to the post ; believe that not a pamphlet, a tract, or a cir cular, but what would be sent by the coach at a charge of Is., rather than by the post at the charge of Id. Suppose, too, that not a single advertisement would be obtained by any of the newspapers, and that the advertisement duty remained the same, and yet by the increase of the paper duty alone, they would gain 150,000/. more than the pre sent tax, which they allowed to be a bar- 1 rier to knowledge and a premium to immo rality. Had he made out his case ? was it necessary to say anything further ? One or two observations alone remained : in the first place, he should propose his resolutions in the most moderate and general terms possible ; he should merely propose to repeal the stamp duty on newspapers at the earliest possible opportu nity ; he should say nothing about the postage (he had merely thrown that out as a suggestion) ; the certain substitute to the revenue was the repeal of the tax it self in the increased amount of paper duty, and he was unwilling that any man objecting to a postage should pretend thereby to excuse himself from voting, against the tax upon knowledge itself. If the resolution were carried, the noble lord would not be put to any imme diate inconvenience ; it would only establish the prin ciple, which the next session would suffice to carryinto effect. When the hon. member for Bath last session brought forward his motion for national education, what was the reply made by the noble lord to his hon. friend ? " I doubt," said he, " if a government should establish education • its duty ought to be, not to en force knowledge, hut to give every facility to know ledge." He now called upon the noble lord to dis charge the duty which the noble lord himself had then laid down,—he called upon him to give every facility to knowledge,—he called upon him to remove the tax ; because it was the great national obstacle to knowledge. He was no alarmist : he did not behold a storm in every cloud, or a revolution in every change. A great nation was not easily made, and a great people were not easily undone. But oppressed as they were with financial difficulties—old and new principles at war,—the elements of their legisla tive constitution almost at open discord with each other ; it was above all things necessary that whatever changes might be forced by the multitude upon their rulers should emanate from their enlightenment, and not from their passion or their blindness. if there were a spectacle which all true patriots, all statesmen of large views, beheld with exultation or delight, it was the gradual rise of a great people into power, by the necessary and safe consequence of knowledge alone. ( Hear, hear.) But if, on the other hand, there was one prospect from which all honest men re coiled with dread, it was in times of difficulty and trouble the advance of the giant force of a democracy from whom the opportunities of knowledge had been carefully excluded; who, therefore, had only the sti mulus of want, without the perception of relief, and who were exactly calculated to frustrate the 'objects of liberty, because they were impatient of restraint. ( Hear, hear.) He called upon the noble lord to pre serve them from that danger ; he called upon him to fulfil the pledge which his public character, for nearly thirty years, had given to the country in favour of his attachment to the diffusion of knowledge ; he called upon him to be alive to the high ambition worthy his principles and his name ; to open the prison -house of the mind ; to remove the fiscal chains that now fet tered and cramped opinion ; and finding knowledge the monopoly of the rich, to leave it the inheritance of the poor. ( Hear.) The hon. member concluded by moving the following resolution :—" That it was ex pedient to repeal the stamp duties on newspapers at the earliest possible period." Mr. ROEBUCK, in seconding the motion, ex pressed a hope that the Government would not, by op posing the resolution, give additional corroboration to the assertion now so generally advanced, that those who out of power were the loudest and most energetic clamourers for the freedom of the press and the diffu sion of knowledge, when in power proved their bitterest and most unrelenting enemies. It would doubtless be said by the noble lord (Lord Althorp) that in the present state of the country the tax on newspapers could not be taken off; but he could not see how the noble lord could better apply his so much boasted-of surplus revenue than in the remission of those taxes which so effectually impeded what was once so much the professed object of his attention—the diffusion of knowledge among the lower classes of society. When the noble lord and his colleagues sat on the opposite side of the house, and when Lord Castlereagh occu pied the Treasury bench, how loud was the declama tion, how eloquent the appeals, in favour of the liberty of the press ; but of what use was that declamation, of what avail those appeals, if on the very mom en t those who made them were invested with power, and could stand forward as the champions of that press, they were completely forgotten ? (Hear, hear.) One of the consequences of the existing tax on news papers was the diffusion of most revolutionary doctrines by unstamped publications. Some years ago a paper called Cobbett's Twopenny Trash was made the sub ject of public discussion for its revolutionary tendency; but he held in his hand several numbers of an un stamped paper published weekly at present in the me tropolis, and circulated very widely among that class of the community on whom its doctrines were likely to make the greatest impression. (The hon. member here read from some penny publication a paragraph headed " The Horseman-Butchers' Attack on the Unionists," in which suggestions were thrown out for the adoption of the people, in the event of a civil com motion, and in which the most revolutionary doctrines, clothed in most wretched phraseology, were broached and boasted of.) Poison of such a character was every day profusely administered to the lower orders, and would continue to be so until regular channels of information and instruction, placed within the reach of all classes, were provided. He knew that several of the first literary characters of the day would employ their pens for the instruction of the lower orders if they were not withheld by respect for the laws from starting unstamped publications. To put down the present unstamped publications was impossible, there fore the best way to counteract their revolutionary ten dency was to circulate cheap and wholesome know ledge at the same price, and leave it to the people to make their selection. All the societies which had been established for the improvement of the lower classes had failed from inability to reach that class in consequence of the high rate of stamp duty imposed on the vehicles by which available knowledge could alone be circulated. The society for the diffusion of useful knowledge was an instance of that failure. They had published very learned treatises on hydraulics and mechanics, and on political economy ; but of what use were such treatises to that class of the corn_ munity whom the society was established to benefit ? It was only lately that one of those cheap publications had recommended the stoppage of labour over all Eng land for the space of three weeks. The consequences of this advice, had it been followed, would have been dreadful, for the labouring classes in that space of three weeks would have acquired habits which it would have taken as many years to cure. It would be in vain for any government to attempt putting down strikes or trades' unions by law or by force if such publications were allowed to continue. It was by in struction, and by instruction alone, that such things could be suppressed. The people of England had come to such a point that it was impossible to put them down by the strong arm of the law or by physical force. It was by instruction alone that this object could be obtained, and the government prevented the diffusion of that instruction by the stamp duty. Con sidering the slight advantages derived from the stamp duties—considering that an equal revenue could be raised by other means--considering how little would be the diminution of revenue were the stamp duty re moved, he asked how ministers could continue stich a pernicious abominable fiscal exaction ? The motion was then put—" That it is expedient to repeal the stamp duty on newspapers at the earliest period." Lord AL THORP addressed the house in a very low tone, and was for a long time inaudible. The hon. member for Lincoln had complained of the apathy with which he had listened to his speech, but he thought that the apathy with which the whole house had received the speech ought to convince the hon. member of the disapprobation with which his scheme was received. In point of fact the hon. gen tleman, by his great exertions, had succeeded in ex citing himself and nobody else. ( A laugh.) The house would recollect that last year he (Lord Althorp) had alluded to his having had under his consideration the repeal of these taxes, and that when he had stated that he would not repeal them that statement was re ceived with the decided approbation of the house. He believed that the whole country, as well as the mem bers of that house, went even further than he did in his objections to a repeal of these stamp duties. In the present state of the country, with such incessant and pressing demands upon him for the repeal of taxes, he felt convinced that he should not be doing well were he to consent to the motion. He did not agree with the hon. member for Lincoln that any deficiency of revenue that might be occasioned by the removal of the stamp duties could be made up by a charge of postage on the conveyance of letters, for were such a charge to be made the newspapers would be sent into the country by a cheaper mode of conveyance. (Hear, hear.) From all the inquiries he had made, he was fully convinced that this would be the case. He was of opinion that both the hon. members for Bath and Lincoln had exaggerated very much when they calculated the great increase of pub lications that would ensue were the stamp duty to be repealed. That there would be an increase he had no doubt, but he had no idea that the increase would be such as to occasion any sensible augmentation in the I amount of duties upon paper. In short, were the stamp tax to be taken off, the country must calculate upon a very considerable diminution in the amount of the revenue, though certainly not to the full extent of all the stamp tax. During the last session, the duty on advertisements was reduced, and the effect had been not to increase the revenue under this head ex cept to a very small amount. It did not, therefore, appear to him, if he reasoned from analogy in the case of advertisements, that taking off the stamp duty would have the effect of greatly increasing the circu lation of newspapers, as it had done in the United States of America. The hon. member for Bath had conceived that the stamp duties on newspapers afford ed facilities to the publication of cheap papers of an evil tendency, and he (Lord Althorp) did consider this point to beynore worthy of notice than any other. This he had himself conceived, and the fact had had a great effect upon his mind. The hon. member, how ever, had shown in his arguments that as the law at present stood this could not be prevented ; and yet he had said that the labouring classes did not care for the arts, sciences, or literary amusements, but that what they wanted was what related to their wages, and what came home to their physical sufferings. Now he (Lord Althorp) did not see how, in the law as it at present stood; there could be any thing to prevent cheap pub lications explaining the principles which regulated wages. But then the hon. member had said that unless such information was seasoned by the news of the day it would lose all its effect. Here, however, the hon. member was contradicted by facts, for there were cheap publications now in existence which conveyed useful information to the people without any such sea soning, and these had a very enormous circulation. He feared that the amount of the cheap publications that conveyed mischievous matter to the poor was very large ; but he was by no means sure that taking off the stamp duties would diminish the number. He was, however, perfectly ready to admit that if the calls for a reduction of taxes were not so great as they were— that if these calls did not proceed from different classes of the community, and particularly from the labouring classes, which were looking more to substantial relief from physical evi's than to any advantages of improv ing the mind—he might be inclined to listen to the proposition before the house. But as long as such claims were pressed upon government in the way in which they were pressed by different members of that house he felt that it would be exceedingly difficult for him to bring forward any proposition satisfactory to that house and to the country at large which went to the extent of reducing the revenue by so great an amount. If the house were so inclined he would ad mit that it would be an experiment worth trying, but even then it had not been proved satisfactorily to his mind that the ultimate effect would be such as had been predicted by the hon. members for Bath and Lincoln. Circumstanced as the revenue then was, he could not venture to make to the house any such pro position. But next came the question whether he ought to pledge the house to come to any resolution which might bind them upon the subject in a future session. ( Hear, hear, hear.) He did not think it desirable. (Hear, hear.) In a general sense he did not think such pledge to be expedient, but in a matter of revenue he thought it completely undesirable. He had no wish to answer all the arguments that had been brought forward that night ' • but with the doubts that rested on his mind, and with an advertence to the state of the revenue, and to the claims for a reduction of taxes from other parties, he did feel it his duty in the situation in which he stood to oppose the motion of the hon. gentleman. He (Lerd Althorp) had been ac cused by the hon. member for Bath of inconsistency. With respect to his being inconsistent, he felt that he had been liable to be accused on that ground very often ( A laugh) but it was his duty to argue as he did, and on this question he had shown no inconsis tency, for he had never argued for the repeal of the stamp duty on newspapers. He would acknowledge that he might have expressed a wish that the tax could be done away with, but as a public man he had never advocated a repeal of the tax, and he was only at the present moment doing his duty by giving a negative to the motion before the house. Mr. HILL was glad to hear the noble lord say that he opposed this motion as a mere fiscal question, and that but for his fear of a falling off in the revenue he might be inclined to repeal or reduce the tax. He. however, would contend that a larger revenue might be obtained were the stamp duty removed. He could not conceive on what grounds the noble lord had said that a decrease of duty would not occasion an increase of circulation, for it was a fixed law, an est a blished rule, that diminishin g the cost or price of an article in demand always occasioned an increased consumption. The consumption of newspapers in the United States of North America, compared to the consumption in England was as five to one ; and were the population of America equal in point of density to that of England, the proportion would then be as ten to one. In the state of New York the proportion was already as eight to one. Coming nearer home, he ascertained that in the islands of Jersey and Guern sey, where no newspaper duty existed, there were 13 different newspapers, two of which appeared twice a-week, making in the whole 15 publications in the week for the small population of those two islands ; yet from inquiries which he had made, he understood that in this country it took, on the average, 60,000 persons to support a weekly publication. If the duty on newspapers were repealed, he thought he might safely say that their circulation would be increased in the proportion of six to one ; and he believed also that the number of advertisements would be increased, for at present the newspaper duty operated as a bar against the reduction of the price of advertise ments. In America, the rate of charge for adver tisements was lid. per line ; in Jersey and Guern sey Id. per line; while in this country it was as high as 9d. per line, after deducting the duty. The number of newspaper advertisements in America was twenty to one as compared with the number in England ; and if the newspaper duty was repealed, the increase of advertisements consequent thereon might be calculated at three-halves of their present amount. Another source of revenue had been already suggested; he alluded to the postage on newspapers. In the year 1830, 13,000,000 of newspapers passed through the London Post-office, and if 7,000,000 more were added, as the number carried by post in the country, it would appear that 20,000,000 of newspa pers, or two-thirds of the whole number published, had passed through the different post-offices in that year. Now, he should propose that Id. be paid for every paper sent by post; and, to put an end to any objections that might be made as to the difficulty of collecting the money, he would adopt the sugges tion of a person well qualified to give an opinion on the subject; he alluded to Mr. Knight, the publisher. That gentleman recommended that a stamped wrapper should be prepared for such newspapers as it was de sired to send by post, and that each wrapper should be sold at the rate of ld. by the distributors of stamps, in the same way as receipt stamps. He had already stated that he expected from the repeal of the stamp duty an increase in the sale of the newspapers in the proportion of six to one, and he really believed that, taking into account the increased amount of paper duty, of the advertisement duty, and the money raised by the proposed charge for postage, the revenue de rivable from six hundred unstamped newspapers would be equal to what was present drawn from one hundred newspapers. The following was an ac count of the money now received by the Exchequer on account of 100 newspapers :--Stamp duty, 1/. 6s. Bd. ; duty on paper, 2s. ; duty on advertisements. Bs. Now supposing that by the repeal of the stamp duty the sale of newspapers increased sixfold, but that the number sent by post, which in 1830 was equal to two-thirds of the whole number published, remained as before, it followed that the number transmitted by post would only be one-ninth of the increased number of news papers. Then, out of 600 papers, 66 would only pass through the Post-office, and the amount of revenue derived from the sale of stamped wrappers for them would, after making an allowance of 20 per cent., be 4s. bd., the duty on paper would be six times what it was before, or 125., and the duty on the increased number of advertisements would amount to 1/. Thus, while at present the Exchequer received it. 6s. Bd. from 100 newspapers, it would, under the plan he pro posed, receive as much as it. 16s. bd. from 600 news papers. But it was not merely on fiscal grounds that he was disposed to argue this question. Did the noble lord recollect how important it was to a com mercial community to encourage the diffusion of intel ligence through the medium of advertisements and news in the daily papers ? (Hear, hear.) He for one should be glad to see the duty on paper and on adver tisements repealed, for it did appear a practicable absurdity for the noble lord to be granting money for the support of schools and colleges with one hand, and with the other laying a tax on those who were willing to purchase education for themselves. (Hear, hear.) Let it be recollected, too, that the • existing law was too impotent to put down the unstamped publi cations, and that consequently a bounty was given to the contraband trader. From information which he had received, he was induced to believe that the unstamped newspapers had increased to a frightful extent. This was an evil of vast magnitude, for every time that the poor man purchased one of these publi cations, he did so with the feeling that he was setting the law at defiance. And who were those who wrote in these illegal publications ? Persons of desperate fortunes, reckless of what might happen to them, and ready at all times to go to gaol, or suffer prosecution. Could such individuals be safely intrusted with the teaching of the people in this country ? Were their honest opinions likely to be in favour of order, of the institutions on which the particular form of govern ment in this country was founded, or of the institutions on which society itself depended ? Yet the existing law gave a bounty to this class of writers, whilst it imposed a tax on the publications of men of respectabi lity, station, and education, whose honest opinions were likely to be in favour of the institutions of the country. An hon. member had alluded to certain cheap publications, and among the number the Penny Magazine, which he characterized as trumpery. He should be sorry to think that the Penny Magazine was a trumpery publication ; but if it were, he could not hold himself free from blame, for that publication was a project of his own. He wished that he could admit that the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Know ledge had penetrated deeply into the masses of the people. It had not, nor would the exertions of that or of any other society be able to do so, unless the works carried with them the stimulants of news and politics. He, however, thought that the Society for the Dif fusion of Useful Knowledge was entitled to credit for what it had done. (Hear, hear, hear.) It had gone deeper into the mass of the people than any other society whatever, and its publications were more generally read than any other of cha racter. But he had done this by honest means. If a - similar he thought that the law was kept in any particular state to favour that society, he would not continue a member of it. The society had taken the law as it found it, and had availed themselves of it to as great an extent as they could, and they were disposed to avail themselves of any new state of the law by carry ing on the principle on which they had acted to as great an extent as the law permitted. There had been, and he supposed that there were still, in the country, those who thought it was not good to give increased means of knowledge to the mass of the peo ple, and that they could be more easily governed by being kept in ignorance. The day, however, for the assertion of such a principle was now gone by. There might have been some colour of an argument before the passing of the Reform Bill, but that bill had al tered the case quite. The people had now political power, and would any man attempt to say that the will of the people was not law in this country ? Ignorance might make them the enemies of the government, why not take such steps as would make them its friends ? Let them have the means of information, of correct information and correct reasoning on all matters con nected with their interests—that was, with the interests of the country. No more fit education in a knowledge on these subjects could be given than that which news papers well conducted could afford. They contained the details of the debates in that house, and what sub jects of foreign or domestic interest which were not brought under parliamentary discussion, and developed with talent and ability. Let the newspaper then go to every cottage, let the discussion of every question be read at both sides. ( Hear, hear.) The newspapers well conducted, he repeated, would be the best guides and mentors of the people. They gave information for which men in every class of society were indebted ; for how few were there who were regularly educated in such knowledge as that found in Paley and other writers of his class by the study of those works themselves. Many were indebted for their information in those and other important branches of knowledge to newspapers. The best way, he repeated, to reach the feelings of the people, would be through well conducted newspapers. Mr. BUCKINGHAM begged to be allowed to make a few observations on the question. It was an error, if it was supposed that the unstamped publications alluded to appeared only in London. During the re cess he had travelled over great part of England, and there was no large town in which he did not find four or five such publications. To this he would add, that he had never read one of them which did not shock him by its violence and its intemperance. The people having easy access to such publications, and not hav ing the means of access to those of a better character, suffered accordingly. With respect to the duties which it might be advisable to substitute for those at present existing, that was a subject for future consideration. Among other propositions, one which appeared de serving of notice was, to impose an ad valorem duty of twenty per cent., so that a shilling periodical should pay threepence ; an eighteen-penny, twopence; a four penny, a penny, and so on. This would unquestion ably be productive of a large revenue. Why did he desire to see the extensive circulation of cheap publi cations supported ? Because he wished to see among such publications such as would inculcate respect for government and for the rights of property, and would turn the minds of men from ideas of outrage and re volution. It was unnecessary for him to say that he had no objection to the fair and candid discussion of all public measures. What he wished, however, was, that it should be a fair and candid discussion, and that means should be afforded to the friends, as well as the enemies, of government, to spread far and wide their opinions on such measures. Mr. E WART thought that the noble lord had made a very weak defence against the motion of the hon. member for Lincoln. It consisted in the asser tion that he did not think the adoption of it would enable them to resist the influence of the dangerous and envenomed publications complained of. All that the hon. member for Lincoln wanted was, that equal advantages should be granted to publications calcu lated to make a better impression on the minds of the people, and the noble lord refused to grant them. To him (Mr. Ewart) it appeared that in every point of view it would be exceedingly beneficial to adopt such measures as might lead to a more extensive circula tion of periodical publications. It should be remem bered that such publications were not restricted to political and commercial subjects, but that they also treated on scientific and literary topics. In his opinion, the greatest benefit which the people could receive would be by a repeal of the duty on such publications to facilitate their circulation. The whole duty amounted only to 57,0001., and surely that was not a sum to be put in competition with the evil to be re medied, and the good to be obtained by its relinquish ment. One of the great evils of the present violation of the law was the circulation of an immense number of almanacks, many of which contained very perni cious matter. He understood that the number pub lished last year was not less than 200,000. These were subjects which were far from being beneath the consideration of that house. Whatever might be the fate of the present motion, he trusted that no long time would elapse before his Majesty's government would take the important question which it involved into their most serious consideration. Mr. GROTE was surprised and sorry that such a motion should be opposed. 'For his part, he ascribed much of the misapprehension which prevailed on the subject of wages, and many of the evil consequences which had arisen from trades' unions, to the injudicious matter which appeared in certain of the cheap publica tions, and which he really believed never would have appeared at all if the field were fairly open to all ho nest speculators, so that truth and reason might be disseminated. ( Hear, hear.) He had no doubt that right principles on all matters would very soon become prevalent, if talent and honesty had fair play. It was impossible, with the present stamp acts, that individu als of respectabilityovould venture on cheap publica tions, and so long as this was the case, they really must not be ast on i s h e d if erroneous_principles prevailed. He looked upon the Poor Law's Amendment Bill as one of the most important measures that had ever been brought before a British Parliament ; but he very much doubted whether the poor, had they the oppor tunity of imbibing correct notions through the medium of a cheap press, would have been misled as they had been on the subject by erroneous statements, which really would not bear the light or stand the test of reason. He did not wish to prolong the discussion, but before he sat down,he must be allowed to express his opinion, that if the noble lord opposite would ex s of the Exchequer, was generally sup pe r o c s i e s d e t one o b h e a e l o f m the i o n g to e n c u h i t a y o ee l which lor he did not think he would, after all, find it so very difficult to obtain a substitute for a tax so impolitic. The house then divided, when there appeared— For the resolution 5B Against it 9O Majority against the resolution SCOTCH AND IRISH PAUPERS. On our return to the gallery we found Sir S. WH A LL E Y addressing the house ; but from the noise made by the rush of strangers, we could not gather the import of his observations. From his re suming his seat so immediately, we presume that the hon. gentleman postponed his motion, which stood next on the list, for leave to bring in 4 , a bill to Repeal an Act passed in the last Session of Parliament, as far as relates to imposing the Expenses of Removal of Scotch and Irish Paupers back to Scotland and Ire land, upon the respective Counties in which they nig become chargeable." POOR LAWS FOR IRELAND. At the solicitation of Mr. LITTLETON, Mr. FEnocl O'CONNOR postponed his motion for a committee to inquire into the state of Ireland, with a view to enact a system of poor laws for that country. __ IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT. _ . Mr. FREDERICK POLLOCK moved for leave to bring in a bill to abolish arrest for debt, as to ail debts contra c t e d a ft er t h e I st o f J anuary , 1835, =le" the debt be founded upon or secured by a bill of a" change, a promissory note, bond, or other security in writing. The hon. and learned gentleman said , he ' should delay the house with very few observations in" deed in that stage. They were all aware that, upo'; this subject, a commission had sat for a long time, and presented a report ; but with the statements there is made or details given he w as no t th en goi n g t o tres t ui b le them. It appeared, h owever , f rom th a t re port s .;- r by the law, as it originally stood, a person was liab to arrest only for an injury accompanied by force; and that arrest on a contract debt was wholly an ink) v osfwoe a nhrl t efca i , o eth n oeasrna o tbchi f modern practice ; and he (Mr. Pollock could safely state, that the avowed object of the e 5 "/ isting practice—namely, the security of the persos i % the debtor—was not the real one, inasmuch as it fai' a, • in almost ninety-nine instances out of the hundre The real object was, by this process of arrest, to en' t sacrifice, fiut i n chge e eh, d t 1 ni from a me t payment iusut mt haadmit, mf unfortunateiitn i p o trh f i asatondtmheeeb imprisonment present individual obtain t a aa t li t n e h r it i , amount from the pockets of pitying relatives. E ver ; s yste called loudly f or ame li orat i on . ( L ou d cr i es o f "Fl hear.") hear.") He was one of the commissioners who had tab• e ; the evidence contained in the report. He should state that they were not unanimous in their opinion u pon th, a e report—that one of the commissioners differed from tp rest, but that the majority were for a much more ext e .. ,,"; sive change, and recommended that the legisia t w p , should go beyond what he then felt it his duty to prtr s- a He did not think it became him, as an individuat O f humble member of that house, to broach a toe tee( ll much more extended s ca l e , which, to work easily an safely, would requi re new mac hi nery of full and effect tual powers. Indeed, it was on ly from the prosper: of another and a better measure failing for the Fr e t sent, that he was induced to b r i ng forward his prese',`,. bill, which he freely admitted—which he wishe d it o', be understood—h e hi mse lf regar d e d as of a partial ann , inadequate char ac t er . ( H ear , hear, hear.) But i; was still something by way of amelioration —it llrt some homage shown, some advance made, to the rigl% and common-sense principle, that debts, simply "' such, ought never to be the subject of arrest. ( He nr i hear, hear.) He did not propose to go further a present than the plan proposed in his notice of motion , w or h s i e a h femuch bill, extensive to e p n ri(l,i s ie i pe. • %: -, net se m,(e) proposed by machinery'. r i a 0 e pr r Yo somet because, as he before stated, it could not be effectually one connected with the government. He hoped the, the house would be induced to agree to his measure so far as it went, which was to abolish arrest for deb t on mesne process, unless secured by a bill of exchange' promissory note, or bond, one case alone excepted, which he would mention. The house would fl agree with him that it would be necessary to P ar t , against anyabuse of the indulgence proposed to be gra% ed, and one of the clauses of the bill vested the powe r f a section of the courts of Westminster or in a J udg,e_ t ° ,, couldlsafely done only withoutbe advantageously causing to be arrested any party, provided it was nls ... % ce appear that he was about to run away from the .17 the r of the courts, to transfer his goods, or to do anY At, act which would deprive his creditors of their 'With (Hear, hear.) He owned he looked forward im .. more than common satisfaction to the time whe n ue , prisonment for debt alone would be held in abhortr: to 3 when crime and fraud would be the only passPe r la i n y, g p twh r s: i:ensuoilucdnsl, andclumsiest spimei tsiatwendh contrivances het m rnei i rtN s .ea f td o nh— r t tf is n te e ph , t phar u aredt n sl a sye l e : d,iee.rd with v 1 ' _ In his opinion, imprisoning a man for deb ( t C lc he as e a nl e e rte d object which was professed to be held in view. cl here recov wasery oefnteh of e debt it s ; worst an d fe i a t t a made res) nohe between and the unfortunate. (Hear, hear.) With thes e tha t servations he would conclude, merely observing ..., 0 future stage, and that to any alterations in the cl 1 :7 - n the principle could be mor t e lhe t oi h ui .1 1 it though u et g hg h e a lrl ever el gallery. discuss ed wr h y e e .r e P so obtainedl n : '.. an tt I 111 I any he was quite open. If the house should be of ° p gay that the bill ought to go further, he begged t ? itS wish.that he( Hear, for ea r , one hecßehal rNw s . ha)Gos mentioned. uasTlaudlididei,mb hon.ost cordially ial learnedl concury g ee t i l e n tsre np ontmr concluded pornn.seeAsofa hßw b o y hANi. asking leave to bring in a bill for t The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said a few vie rds ' ester t tr e n g (utibty, hon. and learned members in favour of the abolitiosh, imprisonment for debt—though there were so , rn it , theorists, well-meaning no doubt, in favour 01 ..5 o f they must permit one who could boast many his do practical experience in business, to express hi t o ad an as to the wisdom of any such measure. He n tho se entirely different anticipation of its results 0 s w ih e i r e e a te gr g e e a t t m at an t y he ca p se re s —that rh e s r a t ot a l entertained n iteadl believedl would the ht y several ew felaueitlrd i tradersen pa h e n o w n th . ho e a il ne n d d ptohhn learned a act r noo n xu e en d ontfdr g yi le e .os i it 1 T i it impose..• but througho the great of the debtor. It was, however, one f , , the public syt . S misfortunes of the present day, that to the b ee pathy, in all criminal cases, was extended doer ; while the poor industrious man h s i sw a _ll, p e r ; cause e ly hreobabpepd,eaolerdindtoiretchtley attributiveswindle livii,..ndailive. property y re it lvasutte t ra perso,.. , ,n.. tte th r i ' l l s quently denounced as hard-hearted and ho ' bad : e ll e: tire ept impossible bi alcarriedeesst that a t system t t h r i a s bill, deef c theo t u h led e e y a wouldbnet rycarried ;a rfbreirereda it k wa s ~,c r edit country without credit, and who would tire when there was no remedy whatever for was exaggerating the alterationtry 00 by this bill in the credit system of the cone.editor from ar object of it was simply to prevent a cr d ebt, theree b° ' being no voucher in the shape of the Mr. POLLOCK interposed. He thowoufghdtepbtopase resting his debtor on his own oath or hon ll would 0;4 for it. When he had proved his debt He wished to do away with that country alone enjoyed, for in no other par t n the I fie would the body of a debtor be detained o oath of his creditor alone. state d have the benefit of arrest, if benefit it courldwhbeichcaltibiso cured many of his objections, and those Whiter, dig' prevailed in his mind might, perhaps, be e l lle Mr. BARING resumed—What had been , st ill cussed on the second reading. (Hear, hear''credi would ask the house in what manner could the ton tor make out the declaration of his debt e:' ee i T e red , oath ? The present system should remain ori a oau trl if stability in the trading transactions of the e,, sa of was to be looked to. He dissented from the vlvforey the hon. and learned member, and woul d, Cher , oppose the introduction of the bill. o r ~ Oh •' r Mr. RICHARDS rose amid loud cries 1 bation of the measure then beforeiet elio_s' t the trade Of position was founded on a kno h 4,2 to warrant hinl the country--sufficient, h `dutywould had introduced the hi? aro' and learned gentlemanatathos and force on the h h 0 and said he was most anxious to recordoh!! digipsprop.: h r e e un to rtunate debtor, but did, ships inflicted onet might n i the ght cdoduartsee with i e ltgh f h e gt l t d i o t think at all of t (Hear.) i, l \ l - i e s" l ' l h' flr gentlemen of his o , j /i t hers a r° ' ° should be recollected that mem- aid be pa., ' gave no credit (Laughter)—they - far au the bar i p t ni f ssion to exclaim against irepris' nin of (Increased laughter.) Fa r- cis) m oney : ~m r gichar nie m m os e t n se in rio tr u a s d e e v . ils. He ( .. h deceived and tc) disa P p u p rs o u in e t . ed T cr h e e d: o to se rico, •: °l ' 'cc to the house. The present bill, if car w _ . , id deprl ~ _ _ ll . , e sit e r e a d Y!... j d J r t e s. e" ft w age the creditor of his just means of re BAs try. resent f h iPon a °r d ri di: l ae o lb s kyt ; s. r b o u r e t by itt y bad debts than was only a motion to inroduce •Tne. par, f i pe a rro m f ed a n c u r t t . c , wt c i a va n es u n ic i T tf h the L i wt l h a i l e t h e ß F E business ß o u s of s o t h il.b e r e i , itisiethe One pr d 0.5. bi e ti no t e o n s t d i e e t u a l i a n r, tli the however, house for str u a c n k y eons h iin,dera which tirely overlook. It seemed to be " 1 .. , ne but swan opponents no un hoot lers contracted debts. W h ere c ircumstances , v y „ a ttie! divide als pressd down f would be well to errelve fro well known there w e 'll the It was nownso t eed7oau ni dbdt o enh f iconetg t the ü bill rte ha e t ry : to er t e he we p r a e i : an f o r c t i eprela; gild of imprisonment ? to interfere between there . a to the house 0 be in c v a e r s r t i e e d d on i Rtihtehouctrethdietopro.wetortt hoci f . the present law. - It had been s a ' ° file' ld f Scotland ill °Sode e ' what he stated. • Let hon. members look to to rs a wh y 0 where trade was extensively carried on, an sin , 0 was found the protection sought to be co I,,,iittg ti England. He was not, however, for dePr t 4 4 l l4) e • creditor of the due means of obtaining the., it bi l , what was found due to him. Let him obtgfr h igosm p tr r a i d s.eatag sale of the goods, and not by grinding it out of 1 rdiegnoiu At 4 44 'td bl Cud voiecti e 4o „ a , . e , th e Ju hrc on, r of tr tl , tho