The Sun. — London, England, 1831-12-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIA \'IENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, DECEMBER 17. THE REFORM BILL: (Concluded from the Sun of Satierday..) Mr. S. WORTLEY, in continuation; said, he had notv ex plained to the House the length to which he agreed With the fe-ovisions of the present Bill; and if it were asked why, when he was prepared to disfranchise to the extent of sthedult A, and to enfranchise to a considerable extent, he Was stilt not prepared to vote for the second reading of the present Bill, his answetWas, that he had not made these admissions upon any c'onviction that such alterations were either expedient or necessat'e,--.(ilear, hear, hear.) If Governtnent still was determined to per severe in forcing upon that House, avid upon the great bddv of the intelligent, wealthy, and respectable patt of the community, this Bill through successive sessions, he seonid very much regret such a course of procedure i bet still he hoped - that many who had previously supported government would co noerate with those who were desirous to amend, and make the Bill less objectionable, and as safe for the country at posaible. —(Hear.) At all events, he trusted there would still be 'Spirit and courage enough in thefriends of the Constitkititin to enable them to chew that front in a bold and fearless discharge of their duty to the House and to the public, as should again save the country from the infliction of this ill-advised and dangerous measure.-- (Cheers from the Opposition.) Mr. GODSON then addressed the House, but in so low a tone that it was with much difficulty we could hear him. The altera tion, he said, that had taken place in this Bill had not touched the principle, and, therefore, he would support it by his vote.—(Paai.) . 1 he 101. clause, although altered, somewhat brought back the franchise, and made it more conformable to the common law right. In every quarter it was admitted that some Reform was necessary, and indeed why should its necessity not he admitted ? For what was Reform but the adaptation of the Constitution of former times to the spirit and intelligetce of those in which we live? The main question nOW was, the per mitting of the present Bill to go into Conunlttee. Why should Honourable Gentlemen object to the second reading bi long speeches, whets they knew by the Vete of last session that the 8.11 must go into Committee? The question was not whe ther this one or that belonged to one party or another, acing will the Ministry or any other patty, the dttty all in that Home was to suit the Constitution to the present changes in the circumstances of society ; and in lb s tenimittee the details of the Bill would be sufficiently attended te. Colonel WOOD could have Ito diffitulty in yoting on this occasion, and in voting for the aee on d reading. He had Voted for the second reading of the last Bill, and heard tibne so under a sincere wish that that Bill might hat Undergone in Com mittee such amendments and alteratirna as would haVe qualified him in voting for the passing of that Bill into a la,w ; but the Bill had unfortunately, in his Opinion, Veen fdreed thittigh the Committee with little or no alteration and and the consequence of that indiscreet haste had been the losing of the Bill. He hoped that though this Bill hitd been considerably amended, vet that as it contained teettal things objectionable, it would in Committee be stried of those objections, which to him it s till *wetted liable tie would state wherein it Was in his Opinion objectionable, and how far it had been arrlanded. In the first plate he thought preserving . the ;Meld numbers of the 'Howe st very great amendment. Biit though the numbers had becththai ntained, the propertM of th e Members returnedto Pashas ntbythethreekitlgitomshadremained, which was a great fault. The relative rfe . tkirtlon of Members from the three kingdoms was exet at the most important periods, namely the Union attlh(tt • &.MI and the Union with Irelands AM the arrange. Weak S! those periods ought net wow be be disturbed. The tptiseset'at Bill was based oil propettY Mitt taxation ; and he thought if The relative proportions Welt taken in reference to taxation, It would appear that Irelatill in particular had not any reason to complain Of net hating a fair number of representatives, far that tountty paid only about five millions of taxes, avltile England and Scotland paid about forty millions, He IYOped, therefore, that in Committee he would see the pre sent number of Irish Members retained, It was decidedly against the feeling of the English people that the number of , Irish representatives should be increased at the expense of the English. As to the schedules, he found that in schedule A. there were 56-56 there were in the last. schedule A, but then the present 56 were certainly not precisely the same as the last. The present schedule was framed, oh - a much juster basis than the last, though he (the Gallant Cotonel) could not well judge of the basis until the House knew exactly how the particulars respecting each borough had been drawn up. Lieut. Drum mood's calculation seemed to be very ingenious, but at present the merits of it were not known. He could not see what particular merit there was in the number flfty.six.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord who had introduced this had said it was necessary to draw an arbitrary line, and he suppOscd, therefore, It must be taken that, draw this line as it might, it must product hity.six. It might be, also, that this number of fifty-siX had been introduced its consequence of what a Noble Earl was represented to have said in another place, ' , chiefs was that he would not consent to be a party to the bringing forward of any measure which was less efficient than the last Bill. He hoped, however, that this was not the cause, else it could not be expected that justice was to be attended to. With respect to schedule B, that schedule was defective. If there were any nomination boroughs in it, they ought to be taken out and put into schedule A and disfranchised at once; but If not, then the Constitution gave to the boroughs in that schedule the representatives, and it would be injustice now to deprive them of one of them.—(Hear.) In the next place, as regarded corporate bodies, his opinion was that all corporations should be allowed to retain all the rights and privilece, they now possessed. There was an inconsistency in the Bill. The Noble Lord who introduced themeasure had stated, that where it was his Majesty's pleasure to grant acharter to a new town; the electors were to have new corporate rights. Now if Govern ment gavenew corporate rights to enfranchised towns, with what colour of justice could they take away corporate rights in towns that already existed ? Wherever freeholders were in any city or borough, he hoped that, contrary to the anomaly of the last II ill, they should, from 40s. and upwards, have a right to vote in that city or borough. He trusted too, that copyhold rights of voting would be adopted. With respect to the 101. right of voting, there was an imperfection that it would be necessary to rectify. As it at present stood, and as he understood it, the man who occupied a house valued 10/, and paid poor's rates, without any specific value, was to have that right of voting. Now this would be ex tremely inconvenient, it would inundate the country with end less questions as to value. From one end of the land to another, it would be impossible, without endless litigation, to fix the tight, or to produce a real and efficient title of franchise founded on it.. In fact this was the very qualification under which the right of settlement was granted, but that occasioned such uni versal litigation in the Court of Sessions, that that right of ob taining a settlement was repealed, and the only mode which was afterwards fixed was the occupation of a house of 10/. rated at that rent. His opinion, therefore, was that the household quali fication should belong to a person holding a 101. house , and rated at that sum. By this means all the ques ti ons of registry would be settled, and the country would not be inundated by travelling barristers, solicitors, and attornies, and the whole train of others whom it would be disagreeable to mention. He had one consi deration to suggest to the Noble Lord. He trusted, if that Noble Lord was of opinion that this registration was of great importance, If his object could not well be gained without it, that the Bill should be divided, and that the registry clauses should be sub mitted apart ; they might then stand or fall by their own merit. Why should such complicated clauses, whose importance and necessity he very much doubted, be dragged through this and the other House at the heels of the Reform Bill. So much was he of this opinion that he almost felt it to be his duty to give notice of a motion upon the subject in Committee; but he was unwilling to do so lest he should b e charg e d w ith interposing a barrier to the progress of the Bill, merely for the sake of delay. He stated this, however, most conscientiously, and with a view to the due construction of the Bill. He certainly would vote for the second reading of the measure, and he hoped that in a Com mittee it tv, uld undergo such amendments as would not only pass that House, but would ensure a favourable recep- Con for it in the other branch of the Legislature. He was however, certainly anxious that, amended and stripped of its objectionable qualities, it should be passed into a law. But it would be much better that each party should make some con cession—concession should not all come from one quarter. But if each party bereand elsewhere conceded a little, the question would no doubt speedily and satisfactorily to the country be ami cably adjusted.—(Hear.) Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, the necessity for any Measure of Reform rested on the state of the constituency of that House, and never since the Revolution had its constituency stood on so contracted a basis. So far from having increased in proportion to the wealth and intelligence of the country, it had most materially since 1698 been narrowed and contracted. The admission of great towns to a share in the representation was atrictl: constitutional, while the question of disfranchisement was not new to the Constitution. There were now eightnilaces in this country which had once retu rne d M em b ers to that House, which did not now enjoy that right. As to the household constituency, he had his doubts whether the 10/. qualifi cation was sufficiently high in large towns. As to the advantages which would be derived from such a measure of Reform to the people at large, he was not so sanguine in his expectations as to say that an increase of labour or of wages would perhaps be the result, but the great besetting sin of all Governments, whether Whig or Tory, a too liberal handling of public money, would by that means be prevented from occurring ; and upon the important questions to be brought forward before the House, the East India monopoly, the Bank Charter, and many other questions, the people would have their own representatives to determine them, and if they relinquished their duty, or betrayed their trust, they would closely and vigilantly be watched, so that benefit by that means would accrue to the country. Colonel SIBTHORPE rose for the purpose of opposing the se cond reading of the Bill. In doing so the Gallant Colonel ob. served that they were now called upon to come to a decision on a measure which had been introduced in a very imperfect state ment by the Noble Lord opposite only on Monday last, on which depended the security and welfare of the country at large. The Hots. Member for Caine had told the House yesterday, that there was great danger in hasty measures, and that his Majesty's Mi. nisters had found out great defects in the former measure; but in his opinion, if ever there was a measure brought forward in haste, and which required great deliberation, it was the present one. Though he was one that was not opposed to all Reform, —though he saw a necessity for it, yet until he saw such measure recommended by Ministers as would give a safe and salutary Reform, l•e should fearlessly in his place give his decided opposition to all measures. No person would have felt more grateful than himself to have seen his Majesty's Ministers introduce that species of Reform to which he could have given his conscientious vote. With regard, however, to the present Bill, he was ready to admit every tittle that was given should be received with candour; hut to his mind, notwithstanding all the improvements that had been talked ef, there still remained in the Bill those. exceptionable clauses which he could not stomach, for if he did h e felt certain he should be sick at heart. The 10/ clause appeared to him neither more nor less than one of the most unjust he had ever beheld, for he felt confident it would operate so partially one way, and be so binding another, that neither justice nor security could have been taken into consi ' deration in the framing of it. Much had been said of'the al. , terations in schedules A and B. What had been done in those schedules appeared to him like a little changing sides and back again, but still there remained those sweeping enactments which he could never countenance. As to the alterations in schedule B, he agreed with an Honourable Member who addressed the House last night, that the Ministry might almost as well have done away with that schedule altogether. Another objectionable point was the division of counties. The perpetuity of resident freemen, he admitted, was desirable, but no thanks were due to his Majesty's Ministers for that, it was but an act of strict justice to continue it to them, and a very great robbery to take it from them. It had been given as a sort ofsugar:plum, or composing draught, by which Ministers hoped to make theirpeace with those who, by the last Bill, they intended to rob. He wished the Noble Lord's opposite Lord J. Russell's) attention to the next point he should advert to, namely, with regard to the right of voting in counties corporate. When he looked at the present Bill he found many cities, which were counties of themselves, omitted, such a s Canterbury, Exeter, Haverford-west, Lich. field, Nottingham, and Norwich ; he wished, therefore, to know what sort of voting they were to have, whether they were to vote for the town or the county ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL asked whether the Gallant Colonel wished him to answer that question now ? Colonel SIBTHORPE observed, that he did not wish it an swered now, but he knew many Members who were under the same difficulty as himself in making out the meaning of the present Bill, which he believed nobody could understand.— (Hear, hear.) He was glad however to find that the farmer of fifty pounds a year was at last to have some little voice in the representation of the county in the House of Commons. There was another part of the Bill of last session, which he A , Colonel Sibthorpe) was glad to see his Majesty's Mini s t ers thought v:as more honoured in the breach than in the 7_z fint He alluded to that part of the present Bill which re!at alould be no diminution in the number of Members A4r, Had it been so, he would have considered it a impolitic measure; for lie had often seen most nnportanA ss transact e d i n that House, When it would bay to have counted :30 Members present; indeed , • )11e, ip = say fifteen. For that part of the present e is thanks to the advisers of his Majesty. He enlcrlat_ et present opportunity pass without stating his a-"" - ''Nfri county representation. He considered that it tikt (:)Ikr was distributed mosti4Yl~fartiall y. there was the county in whith he resided, and for Whose interests he, felt deeply, a County of upwards of one inillion of gores; and *high Contained 300,800 inhabitnts, was allowed only one mere Member than the comparativ ely insignl fi cant city and county of Durharn,.-. - = There was also the flourishing And inipriiVing town of Grimsby, It was to be shorn of one of tts *unbent., and for *hat reason P The reas o n gi'Ven on th 6 discUssion of the last gill Was that Its popnlation fell short Of the niluilier of f.'hr lho4sa.hth hut What Was the fact now ? By the late popular returns it appeared th a t it h o W fir exceeded t hat number, ut still its Memb er W as h o t t o be restored, He considered that is Majesty's Mith%te s had hastily broug ht torWattl this hieqture beterb they hail had s UiffiCient Antbrinatiem in order to keep theinserveS in p la ce. No dratibt it *as a Most unpleashig ditty for p Yuan to say, ant not able to fill the situation which I hold, but, he editaideltd that lithe present Ministry had retired as they okight to have done, they would Nave de§erVed well of their Cohntry. Mr. SLANgY would hot tre?ass ibiig upon the time and at tention of the M . 4 ,01 blit he could not give a silent vote upon a quest:Hu tit Such importance, and when the interests of a large proportion of the 'people were at stake. He was not one who was bound to any party by interest—his opinion was unfettered. He considered if ever there was a time when Conciliation to the people was necessary, the present was that time. Reform had been called for with a loud Voice from every part of the country, and his Majesty's Ministers in obedience to that call had brought forward a measure which would give the people those rights to which they Were entitled, and of which they had been so long deprived, and at the satne time deprived no one Of anything Which they had a right to possess. His Majesty's Ministers- ' While they had been anxiou s t o re t a i n the great principles of the late measure, had sheirn a most laud able desire to conciliate the tlori. Members Opposite who were opposed to the Meastire. This would alto strew I-lon. Mem bers that the bill ought to go into Cainmittee, when they might propiaSe any amendment which in their opinion would improve the theashre The question how wa s , no t on l y in that House, but throughout the country, whether a great measure of Reform was not necessary. This was a question which had beeti answered in the affirmative by the united voice of the people. He would consider that thoSe who Voted against theßill this night, voted against the Wishes Of nine--tenths of those whom they ought to represent. If he were allowed he would state a few facts which slieWed the absolute necessity of a change in the representation. seventy years ago the agricultural popu lation Was two to one to the manufacturing. Twenty }Mars ago they were equal, and now the manufacturing population was more than as two to one to those who are engaged in agriculture. Still, while'all these changes were gbiiig forward, none took place in the repretentatiod of these Interests. He would state one other fact which was proved by the papers on the table of the House; from these papers it appeared that 33 of the boroughs which were placed in schedule A paid in taxes only 100/. each, while 33 of those towns which were to have representatives paid to the comparative enormous amount of Slti,ooo/. It was but just, as well as politic, to give to these large towns what they ardently desired. It had been said that they were virtually represented, but that was an argument which no sen sible man could honestly support. There was another reason why representation ought to beconceded to these large towns. It was well known that the population in these towns were engaged in trades which were liable to great fluctuations, and of course their interests requ iredVigilahtatt ention,which could only be given by their having representatives in that House for themselves. He asked, would it not be an advantage to such great towns as Manchester, Sheffield, and Birmingham to have representatives in that House, to state the causes of their distress, and to propose some remedy for them. Some distress arose from causes over which the Government had no controul, which was an addi. tional reason why they should have representatives who would be enabled to point out to them that the Government were not in fault, and were not the cause of their distress. Those per sons would then bear with patience the evils which they knew could not be remedied ; but at present there were persons to be found who told them that all the distress arose from .he measures pursued by Government. He felt convinced that many of the disturbances that prevailed occa sionally in some of the manufacturing districts, would be either wholly prevented in future, or much lessened if those great bodies had representatives in that House. He asked was it not a matter of justice, policy, and expedience, that the great cotton and manufacturing districts should have representatives? It might be said that although they had no direct representatives, yet that they were indirectly represented by Members for other places.— (Hear.) It was true that many gentlemen might attend to the causes of distress that prevailed in those districts, but would they he believed, would any Hon. Member for Old Sarum, Gatton, or any other close borough, thou g h h e might speak with the tongue of an angel, be believed ? Those Members were, doubtless, men of talent and intelligence ; but while it was known that they had no constituents they would not be believed. Looking at the question in which. ever way he could, he felt it to be one of the deepest concern to themselves and their posterity. There were a million of persons engaged in the cotton trade, giving a property in the land to the amount of 30 millions a year. Ought they not to be represented in that House ? Should any reasonable proposition be made in the Committee, let it come from whatever quarter it would, it it appeared to him to be any thing like an imp rovemen t upon the Bill, he would give it his support, for all he wished was to make it such a Bill as would fully satisfy the people. There were eight representatives given to the districts engaged in the cotton trade; three to the different metal trades of Birming ham, Sheffield, Wolverhampton, &c. ; three to the woollen manufacturers ; one to the Potteries (a trade employing an im mense number of people, originally created by a single family, and now exporting to the amount of two millions a year) ; one to the carpet manufacturers; three to the shipping interest, and a cer tain number to places in which great wealth had accumulated by the industry of individuals. Now he had not heard any objection to those places, but the objection was to the disfranchisement of close boroughs. The people, however, would not be satisfied till the representation of those boroughs was destroyed. So long as the people saw that those borough r e p resen t a ti ves spoke only the opinions and wishes of their proprietors, there would be no peace or tranquillity. He implored the House to abstain from that violence in discussion, which had marked the proceedings of last session, and to consider calmly and deli. berately what they should best do with the Bill now before them, and with the people demanding it. His deep conviction was, that unless the question was settled, and that speedily, the people would have their nature and character changed from that peaceful, calm, and industrious state, which they before possessed, and should they get into a state of excitement they would not be easily calmed, so long as the question on which they had set their minds remained unsettled.- (Hear.) About a dozen Members rose to address the House, but the SPEAKER called on Mr. CUST, who complained of the situation in which the borough of Lostwithiel was placed in the new Bill, and wished_ the Noble Lord to give him sOrtie explanation of it for the infor mation of his constituents. He felt gratified that the rights of the freemen had been looked to,and was glad to see ot her alterations. - The present was indeed a troublesome season, and there was, he feared, but one step between the chanrs that were now proposed, if they were granted, and the destruction of the country; he. hoped, therefore, that House would not willingly accede to the second reading of the Bill Sir JOHN BURKE looked upon the machinery of the Bill as much improved through all its stages ; it had at last gained so much, that if a division were now to take place, there would, in addition to those who had previously supported it, be a great accession to the number of its friends. Many had been con verted, and had adopted the opinion of his Majesty's Ministers. Many Anti-Reformers had changed their opinions, and had be come friendly to the Bill, but none that had formerly supported it would be found now to relinquish it. They had been taun'ed with not having sufficiently debated the question, but surely after the late discussion that objection could no longer be urged. While he was prepared to give his most cordial support to the English Bill, he was yet prepared to object to the Ministerial measure of Reform that had been proposed for Ireland. He would indeed, at the proper time, give notice of a motion for the purpose of having the Scotch and Irish Bills read a second time before going into a Committee on the English Bill. His reason for this was that upon every principle of justice there ought to be an addition to the Members for Ireland. The case of Ireland, by means of this motion, would be fairly brought before the House, and if too many Members were found to be given to the metropolitan towns, it would be competent for the Committee to determine how far Ireland might be benefitted by them. He was prepared to show that whether considered according to population, or extent, or propety, Ireland had not any thing like her due proportionate share in the representation. In return for the support which he should giveto the English Bill, hehoped that Members would enter upon the Irish Bill with the same zeal, candour, and impartiality which the Irish Members had already bestowed on the English Bill. Mr. BARING WALL having been an opponent of the last Bill would continue to oppose the present, because in all es sential points it was its counterpart. There was no "person who felt more strongly than he did, the awful situation in which the country was placed, and who felt more deeply than he did, the absolute necessity that something in the way of conciliation should be done. The Hon. Member thought it most important to state, that this Bill was the Bill belonging to Government, and not of theirs (the Hon. Gentle men on the Opposition side). They had nothing to do with the responsibility of it, and he could not allow the Members of the present Government to say they had made alterations, and that those alterations were concessions to theopposers of the Bill. They were no concessions at all to them—they were con cessions to reason and justice. He was, however, ready to admit that most of the alterations of this Bill might be considered as amendments. The sche dule A had been taken upon a new basis.—(Hear, hear.) Little time had been given for Honourable Members to reflect upon whether that basis was one on which it would be expedient to ground a schedule of disfran. chisement, should a disfranchising schedule be agreed upon at all, but he thought the House ought to have time to consider before they were called upon to approve -or disapprove of that schedule.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) Hethought there were many reasons which ought to have in. duced the Government to make more concessions than they had done in the measure which they already had brought forward. He could not but call upon his Majesty's Ministers to recollect that since Parliament had last met, the voice of the House of Lords had been against them. He was sure the Members of his Majesty's Government would be the last persons in the world to assert that there was no property, no talent, no right in the House of Lords to be regarded upon a great and important question like the present.—(Loud cries of « Hear.") He called upon the Government to recollect that not only had the House of Lords declared against them, but that the Church had declared against them. And he would say, when he heard arguments raised concerning the interestedness of that great and learned body, that the House ought never to forget the important truth that the Church owed almost the whole of the patronage it enjoyed to the Lord Chancellor and the Government.—(Loud cheers.) He thought likewise, that the very circumstance of his Majesty's Government having proposed amendments in this Bill, in point of fact proved to the House that the measure which they had before proposed was not a perfect measure; and that this was a reason why they should not now come forward, and again say they would stand by the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. He rejoiced in the altered tone of the supporters of this Bill, though he could not admit there was any alteration in the language used by the Ministers. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had begged the House to recollect that this was was no party measure. He entirely concurred with that Honourable Member in that sentiment and recommendation. He recollected also that the Hon. Member for Liverpool had said that that House was not a talisman of truth, but he sometimes said one thing in it and sometimes another. When he (Mr. W.) recollected that gentle men, when they went into the country to meet their constituents, would have to depend more upon the middling class of society for their return than they had ever before done, he was not sur prised to h ear i t said that the language of Hon. Gentlemen in that House should not always be the same out of the House. For his own part he must say a speech less calculated to support the provisions of the Bill now under con sideration than the Hon. Member for St. Alban's, he had never heard delivered ; and he had no doubt that that Honourable Member would be found voting on his (the Opposition) side of the House. He inferred from that Hon. Member's speech also, and speaking over the Treasury Bench it was to be supposed that speech was upon authority, that the metropolitan Members in favour of the measure would not be found to be sustained. With regard to the nomination bo roughs, certainly public opinion had been so strongly expressed against them, he for one thought it would be better to give them all up together than to give them up by halves. He there fore was prepared to support the disfranchising schedule, to the extent to which Government proposed to carry that sche dule, provided upon examination it was fbund to be a fair and real one.—(Hear, hear, hear, and loud cheering.) He was glad to hear what an Honourable and Gallant Friend had observed repecting the borough of Lostwithiel. He thought it a piece of gross negligence on the part of the Ministers that they should come down and state that the borough of Lostwithiel was in schedule B, and that on the very night after that state ment was made, the Bill itself should inform the House that Lostwithiel was in schedule A.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Were People's feeling s , or w ere their just rights and privileges to be trifled with in this way! Down went the post to Lostwithiel on the night on which the measure was brought in, and infor me d the inhabitants that the borough of Lostwithiel was safe; the rkferM Bill was immediately popular there, and, in all pi o babilitY, the health& of his Majesty's Ministers were freely drank on that night.-4 Hear, hear, arid laughter.) Next day's post W th Wok thein the tidin gs at Los.tWithel was placed hi schedule A, Then *hat was the result ? Probably his Majesty's Ministers Were burnt in effigy, and he was not Alike that the yeomanry might not Very stioti have to be called but to qquell disturbances in that part of Ctiriiwall. With respect to schedule 13, that schedule was not only ibexptdient but unpoptilar. He believed that the ohly part of the Bill which Was popular throughout the country was the extinction of the nomihatioh boroughs, and the extension Of the ele , 'tii'efratiellise.—(Cheers.) To schedule A. he (ilr. W.) had certainly become a tonvert.=(Hear, hear,. hear.) A crintert he could hardly tall hitnsdf, for his opinions remained the lathe but a conVert to that schedule on accouut tit the alarming state of the Country. It was the fashion in the tieveriiiiient side of the House to claim attachment to the people; but he begged to observe, that he was as much attached to the rights and privilege s ofi the people as well as to the principles of the Crown, as any man in that House. All he disliked was the noisy factious demagogues, that ex cited and aggravated the country. He felt glad at seeing a borough in schedule B with which he had been long con nected; at the same time he would not allow the Govern. ment to have credit for concession. If they were to have concessions, those concessions would have to be dated from this evening, because the Bill on the table was the Bill to which Government was pledged, and the House had nothing what. ever to do with the old 'Bill. With respect to the situation of the different boroughs, though he waa unwilling to hazard an opinion at present, f the adjustment of the balance in the old Bill was right, it followed that that adjustment must be wrong now; and he should therefore wish to hear some explanation upon this either from the Mem bers of the Crown, or from some of their supporters, that they might be then and there pruned down to the opinions which they thought p roper to advocate. He could not help re. garding this as a very great and important question, and that whatever the result of the deliberations of the House upon it might be, it would be proved to be so throughout the country. He knew not whether he spoke the opinions of his constituents or not, but his opinion was that Government had done perfectly right in not giving more representatiies, to Ireland, but he went so far as to say that he thought it a positive evil that any alteration in the representative Members of Ireland should hare been made at all. No new interests in commercial towns had arisen in Ireland to justify the increase of the representative Members of that country ; and the argument as to population would not hold. In the next place, he had to offer his tribute of approbation of the conduct of the Gentlemen Commissioners who had been appointed by Government. He knew not whether most to admire their zeal,or the amazing expedition with which they had despatched business. The Noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had last night alluded to a passage in Lord Clarendon's history of the Rebellion, and as some parts of it referred very closely to what was passing at the present moment, with the pennission of the House he should read some paragraphs of it. Lord Clarendon said, speaking of the time of the rebellion that there were men of great parts, and unspeakable learning ; and then he said in another part, the Government was in the hands of men who were only interested in doing good for themselves, and cared nothing for doing g o o d f or th e people. He said that, with respect to the people, there was the same restlessness of disposition as there existed at the present moment—the same tone of innovation—the same calling for dissolution of Parliament—the same feeling against the Church, and the same cry of " Down with the Bishops;" following in every particular what was going on in the present day; even to the more trivial points the analogy held good. The Lords could not go down to the House without meeting with the grossest insults; they were fol lowed by the mob, calling them " rotten-hearted Lords;" and what was most extraordinary, there were at that time Black Lists—(whether in red and white he could not say)— hawked about in every alley, and posted against every wa ll, in the city of London. With respect to Ireland there was a great similarity at • the present time. She was termed " a gulph to swallow, a sponge to draw ;" and after Lord Clarendon had referred to all this, at the conclusion of these state ments, he draws the attention of the reader thus, he says that after the passing of the attainder, and the settlement of the Parliament, the public mind became "marvellously calm and composed."—(Loud cheering.) He, the Honourable Member, had no doubt that after the passing of the present Reform Bill the minds of the people would become "marvellously calm and composed"—'Loud cheering)--but it must be remem bered that there would follow that dreadful re-action that would succeed to disappointment. When the House of Lords was abolished, the Church went to the ground, and the King was assassinated. He (Mr. Baring Wall) by no means envied the feelings of that individual, who after having read the details of that book could come to the discus sion of a question like the present without fear and trem bling.—(Loud cheering, and cries of" Hear.") The incapacity of his Majesty's Government became every day more and more apparent. Who would be the parties, he would ask, who would be benefited by this measure? Not those who were now so loudly clamouring for the passing of the Bill. He did not wish to speak with the slightest disrespect of any man—he was besides by far too old a courtier, and much too young a man, to speak with disrespect of the party who would succeed, but he would say that if the Whigs would only listen to the voice of reason, and agree to adopt the modifications of the Bill, which those on that side of the House were willing to propose, no man could hesitate to say that the peace of the country would be insured, and the Ministry would gather strength. The Hon. Member sat down amidst loud cheers, with stating that he should vote against the second reading of the Bill. Mr. CRESSETT PELHAM concurred entirely with the sen timents of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and as he conscientiously believed that the Bill would not be attended with those beneficial results which were anticipated, he should vote against its second reading. Lord W. LENNOX said the people of England felt that they had not been properly represented, and now demanded that share in the representation which was withheld from them. They did not claim it as a matter of expediency or policy, but as a right due to them. He highly approved of the alterations made in the Bill, and denied that they were in accordance with the opinions entertained by Hon. Members opposite, during the dis cussion of last session. Mr. PRAED had been waiting with much anxiety to hear from the opposite side of the House something to which it would be worth a reasonable man's mind to turn his attention.—(Loud cries of hear.) He did not allude to the speeches this evening, .for except the speeches of one or two Members, on one or two par ticular points, the speech delived by his Hon. Frind (Mr. C.) last night had been unanswered. Many of the changes made in the Bill had been unexplained, although it was the duty of Ministers to explain all of them.—(Hear, hear.) All the material changes were those which had been last session insisted on by his side of the House, but Ministers claimed the credit for the introduction. He asked what were those changes ? One was the test of population which was abandoned, and another more correct, adopted. That alteration was urged on his side of the House last session, as was that relating to the census, in taking the population of 1830, in preference to that which was ten years older. Colonel LINDSAY said he approved of certain parts of .the Bill, but he could by no means concur in its principle. The 10/. clause was denounced by the sovereignty of the Press, and thus far, at least, some good was effected. But among the many objections to the Bill as it now stood, one was that it destroyed that balance which prevailed before between the agricultural and manufacturing interests, and gave the advantage to the latter. Before his Majesty's Ministers adopted such a measure, they were bound to show that the old Constitution was unfitted for its original purpose. But lie would ask where were the practical evils of that Constitution which was now about to be cast aside? Had the Peers abused their power? Was their influence preponderating? He saw no proof of it in the House of Commons. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that as it was necessary the debate should conclude to-night, he wished to rite thus early, in order to give such explanations as be could offer respecting the Bill now before the House. Previously, however, to his going into any discussion upon its merits he felt himself called upon to notice a charge which was brought against him on the first night, when he moved lid' leave to bring in the Bill. It was said that at this time of excitement and danger no discussion ought to take place on a constitutional question, and that it would be better to wait till the country should enjoy a season of calm and tranquillity. To this he would reply, that if it was dtsirable the question of Reform should be discussed in times of quiet, he was not the person to oppose such a proposition.—(Hear.) So long back a 9 the 15th of Decem ber, 1819, whin a ease of gross and undoubted corruption was known to have taken place at the previous election, he asked the House to give two Members to Leeds, and thus improve the reresentation, by bringing to it new interests and increased intelligence. Since that time he had never ceased to bring forward a question of this nature; but it was urged against him that there was no desire for it, no call for it, nocry for it, and that they had better leave well alone, Quieta non movere." It was said that he had better wait till the necessity arose. If the country now experienced the misfortune or calamity of seeing the question brought forward in time of danger and excitement, the fault did not rest with those who bad repe.itedly submitted to the House a temperate and mo rate measure of Reform—a measure diminished and di- 'uted to the very minimum of Reform. Yet even such a measure as that was said to be too strong by those who claimed the distinction of being the conservative party in the State. A Right Hon. Gentleman bad last night quoted some words of his, and drawn from them a conclu- Ilion very different from what they were meant to imply. He had said that if the principle of change were once ad mitted, there would be no possibility of opposing it ; but did this imply that they were net, in consequence, to at tempt some small change at first, to see how it would act in times of quiet, when the experiment could have been safely and deliberatety tried, as it might have been before it came to be supported by numerous petitions, and by large portions of the inhabitants in every part of the country? He was well aware that Reform brought with it a great change, which could not be unattended with peril; but he was also aware that the danger of standing still was more imminent, and, therefore, preponderated. He thought there was no man who really knew the state of thecountry that must not be convinced that the danger of a great change was better than running the risk of ef. fecting no change at all, and declaring, as it had been de clared, that the Constitution of the House of Commons was perfect. He and his friends, who supported Parlia ment try Reform, thought that the House ought to consist of the representatives of the people—a proposition which, if mooted in the time of Speaker Onslow, would have been considered a truism, but which now was regarded as bold innovation. He and his friends next held, that by no in genuity of argument could the representative of en indivi dual be considered as the representative of thepeople. They also thought that the great movement of society had brought this country into a state in which such abuses as now existed could no longer be endured. They thought it was not to be endured that 150 persons should be sent into this House—not by the peop'e— but by individuals.—(Cheers.) They thought it was not to be endured that a place with 160,000 inhabitants should be represented by a consti tuency of 13 or 14 persons. They thought that there and other matters were so repusrnant to reason and common sense, as well as to the increased knowledge of mankind, that it was utterly impossible they could long continue.— Those Hon. Gentlemen who were now on the other aisle of the House, but who were then in power, had frequently lexpressed themselves in most d ec id e d t erms aga i ns t any change. A Right Hon. Baronet, in particular, had said that these were the questions to which he was most posi tively opposed—namely, the repeal of the Test Acts, the Catholic question, and Parliamentary Reform. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had said, "To all these questions I mean to give my most decided opposition."— Now he (Lord John Russell) and his friends had said that concession, and not opposition, was the line which all true statesmen ought to pursue. If Hon. - Gentlemen on the other side of the House had brought in a measure of Re. form, he should have been ready to give them r 4 '74 support that he had in the measure for the red the the Catholics, and for the repeal of those laws which ^ ar ected Dissenters. He did not blame them for not remain" in office, or for leaving it, if they con s id ere d it t o b e - sistent with their duty and pri nc ipl es t o d o so . But e y e l ought not to blame him, and those with whom he acted, for endeavouring to carry into effect principles which they had always advocated, and for adopting measures which they thought would give satisfaction to the country, without endangering its institutions. He was pre pared to show that those who were now in his Ma jesty's Councils, far from making this a party ques tion, had always evinced a ready disposition to meet their adversaries fairly. When called upon by the King to bring forward such measures as they believed would be for the benefit and advantage of the country, they felt that to propose less would be dangerous, and to propose more be to run the risk of failure. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Croker), in his speech of last night, adverted to a memorable saying of Lord Plunkett, that with some persons history was ne better than an old almanack, but the Right Hon. Gentleman adopted the words and not the spirit of the phrase. The Right Hon. Gentleman spoke of the great changes which had taken place in France, and of the lesson which they ought to afford to the people of this country. But be (Lord John Russell) would ask, what had a French Polignac done ? Had he not issued ordinances to abridge the representation of the people, and put down the liberty of the Press?— (Cheers.) Was it to be brought as a charge against the French that they would not allow the charter to be set aside, and the liberty of the Press to be put down .by ordi nances ? Why, if a proclamation were to be issued to-mor row in England for putting down the liberty of the Press, he trusted that no man _in England would be found to obey it. —(Loud cheers.) The comparison which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Croker) had instituted between the indiViduals who took a leading pirt in the late revolution of France and his Majesty's Ministers had, in his opinion, entirely failed. This, however, formed no part of the question now under consideration. The question was, whether the Government and the Legislature should incur the danger of running counter to the spirit of the times ? (Hear, hear.) He should now turn to the consideration of the Bill, and the arguments urged against it, keeping in mind the principles and general reasons which ac tuated his Majesty's Ministers in bringing forward that measure. In proposing the disfranchisement of the fifty-three small boroughs, his Majesty's Government felt that the time had gone by when any Government could be supported by the representation of these boroughs, and at the same time preserve the support and respect of the people. The people -found it not in the Constitution that any individual should have the power of having Members to sit in that House, and they were anxious that all the Members of that House should be—what the Constitution intended thersbould be—the representatives of the peop'e. It had been argued, however, that although the nomination of Members was not within the letter or the spirit, yet it was the practice of the Constitution, and should not now be departed from. Undoubtedly it had been the practice, but he begged to remind the House that the practice had become odious to the people—so odious that the Government felt that it was dangerous—he might say hopeless—to attempt any longer to stand by ie. —(Cheers.) The utility of the small boroughs to the Government had been repeatedly urge . cl; but he thought their utility in this point of view had been greatly exag gerated, and that almost all the advantages derived from them might hereafter be obtained through the far less ob jectionable medium of popular representation. Another argument was, that the disfranchisement of the small boroughs was an infringement of the rights of those who were the proprietors of the boroughs, and nominated the - Members. This argument had no weight on his mind. The Members of that House should be sent there, not for the benefit of any Lord, or any borough proprietor, but for the benefit of the people..—(Cheers.) The abstract right of Parliament to deal with those boroughs no one could deny. That right Mr. Pitt had asserted at the time of the Union, when he distinctly declared that Par liament bad a right to disfranchise any borough which it was expedient and beneficial to disfran chise. In disfranchising the small boroughs, then, he contended they were acting in accordance with the acknowledged principles of the Constitution, and restoring that House to the real character of a House of Comtnons.—(Loud cheers.) It had been argued, how ever, that the House of Commons returned under the Bill would be of too democratic a character. To demonstrate the inapplicability of this objection he need only refer to the Bill itself. According to this Bill there were to be 166 county Members for England and Wales, and the only difference made by the Bill with regard to the constituen cies for counties was, that copyholders and tenants at will, renting to the annual amount of 50/., would be entitled to vote, and that twenty-seven counties would be divided, the divisions returning two Members each. This was an alteration no man could say would render the county re presentation too democratic, or endanger the permanence of the Constitution. But, then, it had been said some of the counties—such as Lancashire and Warwickshire— were manufacturing rather than agricultural, and, there fore, the agricultural interest would not be sufficiently re presented. At this time of day he thought they ought not to be fond of placing the manufacturing interest in contrast and opposition to the agricultural interest.— (Hear, hear.) Manufacturing towns often selected gen tlemen connected with the landed interest as their repre sentatives; but if the manufacturing interests were turned round upon this way, and put in opposition to the agri cultural interest, it was very possible that in future gentle.. men connected with the landed interest might not be so frequently returned for manufacturing towns. In addition to 166 county Members under this Bill, SO Members would be chosen by the places named in schedule B. The House had heard it stated over and over again in the discussions on the late Bill, that the places in schedule B were likely on all occasions to return landed gentlemen. Under the Bill there would also be about 120 Members returned by places containing under 10,000 inhabitants, an d f rom in- vestigation he had found that those Members would be re turned by ciinstitnencies not exceeding 400 or 500 in each borough. It was not unfair, therefore, to assume that these 120 Members would belong to the landed interest. There would be 150 Members, therefore, to add to the 166 returned by the counties, who might be said to be con nected particularly with the landed interest. To complete this analysis of the Bill, something under 200 Members would be returned by towns containingxbove 10,000 in habitants, and only 20 of those would be returned by con stituencies exceeding 5,000. He might be allowed to take this opportunity of stating what appeared to be the pro portion between the total number of householders in the large towns, and the number of 101. householders entitled to vote under the Bill. The proportion varied in different places, but, taking the average, the 101. householders did not exceed the one-third or one-fourth of the total number of householders ; so that the Bill could not be said to ap proach to any thing like universal suffr a g e . Th e propor tion of 10/ househ olders varied exceedingly even in towns of the same class. In Leeds, for instance, it was calcu lated that only two out of 13 mechanics would be entitled to vote as 101. householders—while in Manchester, the proportion was 30 out of 130. The manner in which the proportion varied showed how unjust it would be to in crease the qualification to 151. in large towns, as some per sons proposed. The Hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Hunt) had found great fault with him (Lord John Russell) for expressing a hope that the Bill el ould represent the in telligence of the manufacturing districts. When he read in the newspapers, however, of persons going into those dis tricts and stating to the working classes that " a million of money was voted by Parliament for the personal ex penses of the Sovereign," he could not fail to see how great the advantage would be if those who exercised the elective franchise were sufficiently intelligent to be able to detect such misrepresentations, and to withhold their support from any candidate who sought to obtain it by imposing on their credulity—by expatiating o n ev ils which never existed, and talking of remedies which no Reform of Par liament could ever give.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Another argument against the proposed measure was that the Crown would lose its authority. Now, he saw no reason whatever to suppose that this measure would im pair the real and lawful power of the Crown. The whole scope and tenor of the Bill was to render the Constitution of that House less objectionable, by placing the represen. tation upon a broader basis. The right of voting to be exercised under the Bill was very different from universal suffrage, at the same time that it would not be an exclu sive privilege. Every 101. householder residing in a town and paying his rates would be entitled to a vote. Those exercising the elective franchise would not be a fluctuating body, but, in point of fact, the electors would compre hend the most respectable portion of the householders of ti e kingdom. This was the basis upon which the con stituency was placed—a basis on which he thought they might safely place the constitution of that House:— (Hear.) He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Croker) that we ought not to look so much to the history of other countries as the history and the present state of our own country.—(Hear.) As to the introduction o this measure by his Majesty's Government, lie hoped they might hail it as the commencement of a better system. It was a measure supported by great autho rities—by the great names of Chatham and Fox—of Locke and Swift. He might also refer to another autho sit& a predecessor of the Right Hon. Gentleman who now filled the chair of that House. Mr. Speaker Onslow, liv— ing in 4 tine of Sir Robert Walpole—in those days of jobbing and joviality, when profligacy and corrup tion were only a subject of jest—states that as he eat in the chair, he had often privately thought that the system which was carried on, was such as no honest man ought to sanction, and no good man could approve. He thought that a remedy might be found for the venality and corruption which prevailed, by disfranchising the small borough., and transferring the franchise to great and populous towns, in which an independent body of voters might he found ; and he spoke of the glory which awaited any Prince, and the lasting reputation that world be acquired by any Ministry, under whose auspices so great and beneficial a Reform should be effected. Theglitry which Speaker Onslow had referred to, might, p have been reserved to this time and for his present Ma jesty, acting as he did for the benefit of the country,—and in accordance with the wishes of the country.—(Hear, hear.) In that case Ministers would pride themselves on being the servants of a Prince in whose reign so great a glory was achieved. If, on the contrary, however, Par liament determined in favour of the present state of the representation, with all its acknowledged alm.es, and all its undenied corruptions—with corruptions defended only because they formed part of the system, he hoped he might be wrong, but he could only see that, by the maintenance of such a system! the Legislature would not merely lose the respect and sympathy, but bring itself into a state of total discordance with the feelings and wishes of the body of the people of this great and free country. " I trust," said the Noble Lord, " that the•issue may be prosperous, but, if the Legislature persists in its denial to accede to the wishes of the people, I own I shall not be sanguine as to the result." Sir C. WETHERELL said that the Noble Lord (John Russell) had on this, as on alt other occasions, as far as his own opinions were concerned, stated those opinions freely and distinctly. If he (Sir C. Wetherell) should allude hereafter, therefore; to a class of Reformers who did not speak their sentiments freely and distinctly, the House would understand that he did not mean to include the Noble Lord in that clam , . The Noble Lord had argued that the measure of Reform now before the House did not tend so subvert the throne, the aristocracy, the church, or the landed interest. He gave the Noble Lord credit for be lieving all this. He was satisfies that the Noble Lord thought that Reform would leave all thoseibings unshaken —but he claimed for himself that credit which he gave to the Noble Lord for his sincerity when be declared his opi nion that the proposed Reform would not only shake, but that it would subvert, every one of those insti tutions. The Noble Lord had formerly proposed a plan . of Reform upon the most contracted and limited scale possible, giving Members to Leeds, Manchester, and other large town-, and not reducing the qualification to 101. He might say that at a time when the minds of men were so excited, and so much speculation was afloat on this subject, the fault was not his, for there had been a time when he introduced the most limited measure that was possible. Why did not the Noble Lord, as a Member of the Govern ment, pursue the same plan as he had done in 1819 ? Why did he not when a Member of the Government, say as for merly, that he thought the furthest limit to which Reform could with propriety be extended was the giving Mem bers to the large towns, and fixing the qualification at suet a rate as would not give dissatisfaction to the con servative party ? Why did he not, in 1831, think that enough which he thought was enough in 1819 ? If au& a measure had been introduced, he did not hesitate to say that lie had not the least doubt it would bare been carried. He (Sir Charles Wetherell) said that in the prcgress of time, according to the increase of large towns, it was fit to follow that prudent plan which had been adopted in the reigns of El zabeth and Henry VIII, and even so late a, the time of James and Charles, to a limited extent. It the Noble Lord had said " L-t us follow the course of the Constitution by introducing a limited number of Members to the House of Commons, to meet the exigences of the time occasioned by the increase of the large towns, with out altering the right of representation of every town in England"—if that plan had been adopted by the Govern ment-the Noble Lord might indeed have said, .‘ It is - band to blame his Majesty's Ministers for introducing a plan which they advocated even when they sat upon the oppo sition benches, and to which persons of no party were op. posed," for it was notorious that persons who did not attach themselves to any party were of opinion that a certain ex tent of Reform was desirable. He was of opinion that the Noble Lord bad not vindicated himself or the Governmeot for introducing a measure which altered the whole right of representation. The question was whether the excitement which at present prevailed had not been occa sioned by Ministers themselves, by bringing forward so large a measure at a time when there was no exigency for it ? Why had not his Majesty's Ministers, when they were appointed, said—" Oae great grinciple upon which we accept office is that a plan of Parliamentary Reform shall be produced according to the ancient course of the Constitution?" Why did they not say that, as in the times or the Tudors, or at any other period of our history, it now became necessary, without imparing the Constitution, to introduce six or seven Members into that House ? Why were their measures not gradual ? Why did they proceed to this un measured and extravagant step, when the leading members of the Administration had been for years con tent with a plan much more moderate ? Although be was not surprised at what the Noble Lord had said of himself, he must say that a weighty and a grievous responsibility rested upon those who introduced this measure, not being called upon to do so by the public wants. Why did not the ignoble Lord recommend that, when seats were lost by corruption, the number should be gradually replaced from some purer sources ? Why did be, who formerly thought this principle sufficient—why did he, when he changed his aide in the House, abandon his gradual course, and proceed to this unexampled . and uncalled-for measure of universal c h a ng e in ev er y one department ? The Noble Lord said it was necessary to propose something, and, therefore, th a t th e res p ons ibilit y wou ld f a ll upon t h ose who rejected what was offered. He agreed with the Noble Lord that, if the Reform which he proposed were reasonable, the responsibility would fall upon those who rejected it; but he said that if the proposition were un reasonable, as he contended this was, the fault lay not with the rejecters, but with the Proposers. The Noble Lord had proceeded to' Mike - some other observations to which he should . take the liberty of alluding. The -Noble Lord said that a change was necessary. . That a change was necessary might be very true, and yet the particular change which the Noble Lord proposed might be by no means expedient. The spirit of the times might require something, but that it followed that what the Noble Lord recommended must necessarily be that something, was a proposition which it would be as impeachment of the accuracy of the Noble Lord's logic to impute to him. That Manchester, Leeds, and Birmingham ought to have Members, might be true; but be should do discredit to the Noble Lord if he thought he could ad vance the proposition that, because these large towns required to have Members, it was necessary to anni hilate all the boroughs in pchednle A, to proceed to the demolition of those in schedule B, and to - alter the right of qualification in every place which Nude Members to Parliament. The Noble Lerd said that' there existed a great degree of excitement, but that it Was not to be laid to die charge of his Majesty's Ministers. He (Sir C. Wetherell) said it was wholly imputable to them, and to them alone. He should presently take the liberty of look ing at some few of the notions derived by the Learned and eloquent Member for Caine from the times of the Tudors and the Stuarts—but at present the Noble Lord would permit him to refer a little to that period of history to which the Noble Lord had himself alluded. The Noble Lord said that great and extensive changes bad taken place in France, and yet that Casimir Perier was still Minister. It was true he was still Minister ; but it was not at all certain how long he would continue so.—(llear, h ear.) It was true that there had been a b a rric a d e re- volution in France last year. The Noble Lord said we need not be afraid of an extensive revolution, for we ob- serve that there has been a revolution in France, the effects of which have been the overturning of the reigning dynasty of France, and the rejection of Charles X., and yet that Casimir Perier still remained Minister. He said that Casimir Perier might not continue Minister so long as the Noble Lord might wish, to give stability to the re volution. The Noble Lord said, " Look at the modern history of France, and the fate of Polignac." He said it Was necessary that a revolution should take place, because Polignac was about to establish a censorship of the Pres.. He (Sir Charles Wetherell) deprecated as much as any man measures which should introduce a Polignac Press. But let the Noble Lord take care that we had not a Po• lignite Press in this country. He said that the Press was one of the causes which Lad occasioned the pre sent excitement, acting, as it did, in unison with the feelings and wishes of his Majesty's Governimnt. The Press had largely contributed 10 et. /1 public feeling to th a t pit c h w hi c h they 01 caw'. He asserted th a t an a t tempt was •p terrorism of the Press. t o carry t h e Reform - P", I could not say wh a t w ou ld have become of the I. Press in France for writing only nn the side ofl4 l t l but we had very good experience of a tyrannical this country, writing on the aide of radicalism. '4l extent the Press might have gone in France he e o ', , tell, but there was no period in the history of Fr, b) the Roman Empi re , or any ot h er S tate, at w in e ever-was established so inexorable a dominion as O ? the radical Poli g n ac P ress , ever s i nce t h e introit' 4 the Reform Bill, had been established here. 11 ' e ,) Lord would permit hi m t o say t h at h e h a d l e f t unt i l many topics which on the former occasion had hel o t by the opponent s o f th e Bill. Th e N o bl e Lord ilt turned the proposition th a t th e ex i stence of 10.) boroughs was incompatible with the popular hell - o'i of those who looked to the great desideratum o f 0 mentary Reform, all b a d chosen the species of R' s .o -which, atthis-Reform, was opposed to the ancient i : iit o of nomin a ti on bo rou gh s . H ow t h e N o b le Lord ottol this proposition h e did not k now ; but, if he mig" 1 , I I from the inqui r i es . which he had m a d e , h e s hould Il t i o , the fact was not so. He would n o w ca ll th e at° t ,the House bhortly to the position of those Tvb^l:o have votes in t owns . Th e N o bl e L or d sa id that in I , r t Bill - one-third only would vote. This had been rer) 1 1 perly called by o th ers th e ar i stocracy o f shop keee 0 one-third who w ere th us t o vote i n l arge places 1 I 0 composed of the inhabitants of 10/. houses-1° of td was to satisfy the popular. wishes. That settlo o o io was to be so satisf ac t or y, w hi c h was to b. not otot s t but a satisfactory settlement, came to this—that po t R 1 large towns, livi ng i n h ouses o f 101 . a year, woe ilia' t" 0 and all persons in h ouses b e l ow t h at va l ue were vote. He ventured to say that the popular fell { those places would - be more - irritated, and lees ga t ' . the franchise being given to 101. househoh a power of nomin,tion prevailed. He said franchise was a specks of nomination. Wi more odious to the public feeling, and that 1 would give less satisfaction, than the saute( hitherto prevailed. A principle was int would be called in India a caste of boroughs, not appear to him consistent with the march the present day. They were all aware tin times when there were castes, and when on' mitted to go over to another ; but he thong quite compatible with British feeling. . would the 101. franchise operate in the new old towns the suffrage was to be taken away and lot voters, where the right depended upon tion of a tenement, however small its value, now introducing this aristocratical prinei, according to the calculation of the Noble Loi of the inhabitants were to h 4ve no right of Noble Lord would permit him to sly that i touched the objection which had been made . the House to the metropolitan Members. Tli Lord passed over, and gave it no - notice wha' teen Members were, it seemed, to be return( tropolitan districts. The Government iv well to rtilect that this was in itself a fortni particularly connected as those Members w o , with the popular party. The Noble Lord was one of the most insuperable objections o ; the House, and, finding that it was a, al 1: passed it over unnot i ce d. H e must b eg to . rii Noble Lord wh e th er l ie i n di v id ua ll y t h oug ht l io t to give _those new M em b ers to the metropolis? s t d reasonable plan whi c h th e N o bl e L or d b roug h t forst j, '9 ”^" s Still!!! l' Hon. Me d, the PTA s ',Hent fro 1819 not one syllable was to be found about where the Arils were to vote.—(A laugh.) lieved, if the Hon. Member for Calne were n ot An himself, he would not like to canvass the Arida of S: dil e , hill.—(A laugh.) Th e N o bl e L or d h a d proce ed ,110 to the enumer a ti on o f t h e M em b ers, and sa id that hipert :g iven to the coun ti es t h at a ddi t i on, and made that t' to the number of Members representing towns coat° a certain nu m b er o f voters , w hi c h would b e coaterflreg' Ind would b e f oun d a great a ll y to the lan d e d i°t *ifti The Noble Lord had alluded to Cromwell's reform. 10 0 looked to Cr o mw e ll' s re f orm h e wou ld fi n d t h a t tbe , g t interest had more than two-thirds of the elective Prl t i g lo, But," said the Noble Lord, " you need not be so°, destroying the balance between the manufact o l o 4 the landed interest, for I have given a certain n 0 ; 1 , tr Members to the counties, and have so arranged W r i 04 0 gard to the population of new towns, thit some 0 ' 0 01 shall have 500, and others, 5,000 voters, and P I) depend upon it that country gentlemen will be choice." But he said that there *ere even c‘ lj- ir which, in their divided state, would codtributeto terest of the manufacturers. If the Noble Lord sai J ; l c the giving Members to the towns would form a CO u 'd poise, his calculation was quicker than hii facts, B°,fld 41.5nt it be ti! nt • He 'Wad e , ou wh ~di t ee whc I: f fieult, ''azed f o h.. .ott ttllt existe itrate~lled for It r : 4t ive Min \ Z i t :' ,l pf thi at it Wa3 f 1 00(1 -g a t e th i t k t i tliteci aS un t d o n it _ I tY fo r pa At "al that a c %t orted b % of an I 1 14 t th Is ught E 41 1,440p11,031wa1hn 14 4 "1 its . would be found that the Members would be • r e not by the landed interest, but by the m a nufs o , The House of Commons would b e d es t r oy e d as eresentatives of the peopl e if th e y once b roug ht j° t6t _ . . co°' nestroy t}l 4 the E is :telißionPof •°ltitior, to principle of having castes of electors and caste. d 6 ::: ` i t t ,, k`ol: e e; elected. The Members would not be returned $ f.l he formul fused and indiscriminate body, as at present. would be a caste of landed Members andcaste of °l i t ho 'ff ' t of It t4 to Or nufacturing Members, but the repres a entatives h i Pet I tolled interest would be left in a grievous minority. dt d, e that bore having a proportion of that House indiscriminatelY F, ttl 'he 4414 t then so that no class would preponderate over others, °' - slie great vital principle upon which the constitution : 41,,,t1t4 1 ;: i 0: 16 4 5, : t; pr et e ht : , House of Commons, as a body representing the P j' t tle that depended. When the Noble Lord stated that this s:„ e . r• moot of the question would be satisfactory, I e wo°ls;:7 44°„Ithet1,7yil limit him (Sir Charles) Mask him whom te4iltrt4ht an eie Would it satisfy the Radicals ? Woul7l e tttt the attain whom the Member for Preston took under his psi tic oir protection ? Would it satisfy the Political Union ° l i ir b mingharn, the Union of Bristol, or the Union of ',;r s e d -- "'' chester ? Would it give satisfaction at Leeds, Manc se- 1,1; of 4 I " The hose Lord, Birmingham, all of them new towns? dvo Ott 4 4, 4 t to th Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and all 0 1 ,0 0 kt t , acquainted with buildings of any descript . n mu t " - 0, 4 Pr, l (I,s en that the house in which an artisan liVed i , o the I 'so ree as happened to be two feet less or more, would be O K ; th t an " i Si. or 10/. a y ear . W as t hi s arrangement t h e te ss ,Ve 'tih4t4. first It i the march of int e ll ec t ? Th e N o bl e L or d excla i me d, • A lai"tio s have found ou t the glorious means w e h av e foun d and T the gold e n r u l e — we have di s co vere d th e won' o f t t i , eureka' which will g i ve un i versa l sat i s f act ion it t ie p aq'tk t towns."—(Hear, h e a r .) Th e w h o l e o f t h e qua li6l, l et ls r l)t tse n tlete " for voting was to consist not in equality of r",s o 1 a i n 7 ci wa „ s condition, not in equality of education, not in eqtnnot "s;:tt 1, sat respectability, not in being equivalent in every resper i t ' e fs was to depend upon a man's living at this or that Di° o r ' L an " street. If he lived at the east side, and paid SI. $ 1 0 - o; 's ' e t 4 m s l t he was to have no vote, but if he lived at the we° t ' ode te the north, or south, he was qualified. This was th e ' 1 , g - I,.th e . lie ha, which . these moral geometricians had found out of suiting satisfaction. A more senseless, irrational," };: i to pt it Pi" Iv hsr ti ration tin proposition could not be addressed to re 0 whose intelligence was to be consulted. But tha t ,:ese 4" , rezila not enough. Who was to regulate the value of " - t he ti e !. - "Al houses? The architects and surveyors. Whethe r r d *, ,as h l ",." credit of this invention was due to the 'Nob! , m- t he (Brougham) or not he did not know. Probably t:t I,'lffeh-glitdstlfa;nd'dres Noble Loid had not employment or patronage euong"fear " a tt hri to dispose of, and these builders, carpenters, and "(rifler''' . I` t t re- ' this latter personage was also to he employed-d en l his travel through England to add some Reform patrooared hi r 4t . H t;ti, tl .0 thi the scanty patronage which the Noble Lord po .e w I under the Bsnkrupt Bill. He believed he had n°,,"„bil's that‘,Y l lulled to the principal expositions made b • the "' ls e th Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces. He rn ) u . st a llou f t"i, , 41 , 1 114 er t ,' I nns he had experienced great satisfaction in many of the : il l S s 4 terations which the present Bill conta i ne d , b u t be P' l~tght to considered the 101. clause t o be just as objectionable - ,1 bt 4 re 4 thr ever. To the two measures, that of the last aea,ilo.oll ihpop i k ,4o l ar F e that now before them, he could not help applying and hackneyed quotation —.so hackneyed, ireedt 1/7 : 4 , 1 1 4 , 1 0 ,„ 4e in were it not for its exact application, he should 6 6 ' 411 :ail r e e . justified in using it— e h Vi t d at th, " Facies non omn ib us una Nec diversa tamen : qualem debet e'se sororum." %I t } , ...t He must here beg to call their attention to mat ter ; th ' l )cd duty. The instructions to the engineer were dated the " 7 r t% ' of November ; the P ar li ament met on t h e 6t h o f micewbe: tt llo r - f j ch and this State en g i neer , t hi s f a b r : quant of C onst ituti° ll ,. j this remodeller of th e o ld C onst i tut i on, h a d j ust ten d l / 4 fe te h ad given him to get ready his documents ; and the Bill 1 ' 44 . ' 44 must have taken less time than that in framing. 0 4,1 % It h' Houses of Parli ament , i nstea d o f b e i ng c a ll e d t oge ther '- ight tii tst th January, w ere requ i re d to meet on t h e 6 t h D ecem ber, *°l aPpl order to be a s t on i s h e d , a f ew d ays a ft e r war d s , w ith t bj i ~4 1 am vv azing effort o f th e s kill a nd ingenuity of LieutettO tts 7 1 ? a Drummond an d th e Mi n i stry combin e d, accompa nied b i g ll y a fasciculua o f d ocuments , number from one to tive, ~;4 1h et -' 4 : at which disclosed a ga p f ro m which two o f t h e doculn rs ; ° were missing. When he looked at the Bill, he was p e ke fectly asto n i s h e d a t th e precipitation w i t h w hi c h I%lirrit' te 'l t ' had hurri e d f orwar d. The Hon. M em b er for Caine 111°phi v attributed this to the slowness which had characterise d movements of former Administrati ons " and," Pa I " i t t lt i odid e eloquent Honourable Member, " the presen t Minie r i ' ' corsequently, have to run." N ow it was seldom that the i ° tt4to the words of that lion. Memb er could be amended ; a n the present instance, he must take the liberty).o t of maki n g $ 1 15 , t - , t de n , n i. hat slight alteration, and, i nstea d of so m r with at Member, that Mi n i sters h ad to run it, he 1 01 " i t , r) trik they would ha ve to cut and run for it—(Hear and lang"" er St ep f Ace. 5 . 5, tbat trint:argrly d that thi' q fr o m ner not which 1 01 ;/ 1 ttlocthe the gttleu,i,p of the tern trili9 6f large in p r ttroduced!iit P r i an Y two: IP, and 0411,cito r •:" (Mr. :h of into` of (:h h at t here ff;r. th e manner have De was o pt ,01 54jr,annee Th tight th 3t e lj th e ,, eu • But Pe t 01 ilks ' Wer e tit, r two , 1 4 04 Put that ofrom th' ^ , O f n the t- it!), uch the e. They treatn, b w hit 0 4 ' in ce — a ,ord, twe't,,tl Wall O t ,h. wa l'° 6° P f t 0 0 ' t 4 I° head._ be bad th a t b eat that ra 4 A t Prophet This the h' u ern d e t, h , ays, latever• * .roet, in a ned by the tart ,: r tling ao would d° (Lo d tl vor u„ c h ei tidatde 10, 4 ,1 tit ,"gnant void be c ' ',pt 14 'red a knew 0,, o f 4 fearie:Y t on t hst th,,,!edati offeoc6 th-,ai. ve xn litce of