The Sun. — London, England, 1861-04-26 00:00:00

expenditure, fresh imposts, in order to redeem either a por tion of the national debt or ExChequer bonds ior (gear, hear.) Did the right hon. gentleman the member I would ask, take that course ?; He, U Irecollect, in submitting his last Budget to the house, be. 1858, had to to 4,000,000; but pay off his Exche querprovide for an expenditure of only so he nevertheless borrowed £2,ooo,ooo Heus of Commons to House bonds, not wishing to ask the make provision for their payment by adding to the current taxation of the year. (Hear , hear.) That being so, I think hon. gentlemen opposite are hardly pursuing a fair or con sistent source in throwing out vague allusions to the necessity of taxing the country i n order t o make payments which their leaders, when in office, deemed it expedient to post pew. I must also remark that the repeal of an excise duty on an article of home manufacture always appeared to me to be looked upon in the light of a really Conservative fiscal reform— (Hear)—and I ani somewhat astonished to find this innocent question of the repeal of the duty on paper - resisted be than who sit upon the benches opposite w ith a'! that heat and spirit which charge erise a party debate. All the traditions of the Conservative party, so tar I S I can see, ere opposed to the existence of excise duties. Their cry has elways been, " Take off the excise duties on your home manufacture I. Let your native industry develope it >elf. If you must impose dut - es, levy them on foreign eemmodities." (Hear, hear.) Now, however, the tables seern to be quite turned, and notwithsthnding that I ord Derby and the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire— your leader:—have repeatedly aemitted the great evils con nected with excise duties, and t e injurious effectwhich in the case of the I aper duty especially they have upon the progress of manufacture, you still seek to retain it, regard less of the deliberately expressed opinion of this house. Now, this, let me tell you, is not merely a cemmerci d ques tion.ufa c. It bears upon agriculture as well asiutup:: very enter man turing industry. The products of largely into the manufacture of paper. (Laughter.) Ex tend that manufacture, and you will be giving increased value to a good deal of the refuse agricultural produce f or Which the British farmer now gets nothing, and which ho frequently is obliged to destroy. This question of the repeal of the paper duty is a rural question. It has reference to the employment f labourers and th e num b er of m i lls which may exist 'throughout the country. (Laughter.) Are there, I would ask, no mills in Buckinghamshire, in Hertfordshire.' and in other counties which have been closed owing to the operation of your Excise system ? And have not the land- I ords as a consequence, been in many instances deprived of that rent which they would otherwise have received ? For my own part, I believe I am not overstating the case whedl say I look upon the repeal of the paper duty as a question which affects the landed as much as the manufacturing interest. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Inverness, it is true, told us the remission of the tax could benefit nobody but the proprietors of a few penny newspapers and the publishers of cheap literature. Now, there is no place in which, as a general rule, so math broad and enlightened truth is uttered with respect to the neces sity of promoting the diffusion of knowledge as in this house, ' but in the present instance, when a proposal which is cal culated to effect that object is made, penny newspapers and cheap literature are spoken of as if they were things too in significant to be seriously regarded. (Hear, hear.) I am, however, in a special degree surprised that the hon. mem ber for Inverness should, in speaking on this subject, express himself in the terms to which I have just adverted. He seems to be of opinion that it is not worth while to remit a tax which stands in the way of the diffusion of cheap literatut e ; but these were not always his sentiments, as is proved by the fact that I had the honour of receiving his support when I moved the following resolution :—" That, whereas all taxes which directly impede the diffusion of knowledge are highly injurious to the public interests, and are a most impolitic source of revenue, this house is of opinion that such financial arrangements ought to be made as would enable Parliament to repeal the excise duty on paper." (Hear, hear.) Now, lam sorry to have to quote a resolution which I myself had the honour of proposing ; but hon. gentlemen opposite so completely astonish me by the cbange of opinion which many of them seem to have undergone on this subject that I could not refrain from skewing the house the nature of the sentiments which they not long ago professed to entertain. In moving my reso lution I took my stand almost exclusively upon the ground that the repeal of the paper duty would confer a benefit upon the literature, and, above all, upon the cheap liter ature of the country, and I was supported by the vote of the hon. member for Inverness. (Hear, hear.) Yet, that hon. gentleman now rises in his place and says he will not vote for the repeal of the paper duty because the only per sons such a measure could benefit would be the proprietors of penny newspapers and the publishers of cheap literature. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BAILLIE said he had stated that if there were a bona-fide surplus he would have no objection to see the paper duty repealed, but that the question stood upon a different footing when there was no surplus whatever. (Hear, hear.) Mr. GIBSON continued.—Well, as the hon. gentleman's views in the matter hinge upon the circumstance of there being a surplus or not, I am led to hope that, if a division should be taken on the relative claims of paper and tea to a remission of duty, I may calculate upon his vote in favour of the former. (Hear, hear.) I now come to my hon. friend the member for Norfolk, who said that we omitted alto gether from our calculations the interests of the particular class with which he is more immediately connected, and I may tell him that I think his leader, the member for Bucks, gave expression to a sound doctrine when be stated that nothing was so dangerous as to make every question of the remission of taxation a question between town and country, ad.] lug that it was giving an unfair complexion to the general objects of the Conservative party to suppose that they were actuated by no other d es i r e th an t o repeal those taxes I which pressed on the interests which they represented. I think the right hon. gentleman gave good advice, and I am willing to admit that in the main this house does favour these measures of finance which are, on the whole, bene ficial to the country. At all events, I shall not be a party to charging the other side, though they charge us, with being actuated with narrow and selfish views, seeing that I have recently received from the other side great support in the repeal of the tax on paper. (Cheers.) With regard to the Chinese indemnity, I believe that nothing can be said which ought to shake the opinion of this house in the pro w e s which th e G overnment upon their responsibility have . (Hear, hear.) It would be expressing a total want nfidence in the diplomatists who have advised the Go vernment. With regard to the charge for China, my belief is that my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made ample provision for all that he can be called upon to pay in all human probability during the present financial year. (Hear, hear.) -It is a very bad principle to make Kospective budgets. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) It is difficult enough to estimate what is going to happen in the year in which we are legislating, and to go further would increase the difficulty. It is contrary to all our usages and contrary to the practice of Parliament to do more than pro vide for the charges of the financial year. Eachyear stands separate from the others, and if you take another year you must bring into account not only those remissions, but the probable diminution of calls on the Exchequer, whether frOne a reduction in expenditure or from and other cause. I decline to enter into the consideration of prospec tive budgets—(hear, hear)—but Ido say that it is wrong to argue that the repeal of an excise duty entails a perma nanent less to the full amount which the duty yields to the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) All experience shows that the contrary is the fact. In no case when you have repealed an excise duty on a manufacture have you in the following year lost the full amount of the tax. It is obvious that it cannot be so, because, if you allow a manufacture to extend itself to its natural dimensions, it must bring into employ ment a great deal of labour, it must circulate capital in the trade, it must increase commerce, and thus it must recoup a part of the revenue which would otherwise appear to be lost by the repeal of the tax. Under all these considerations, and with no practical amendment before the house, I do ask hen. members to allow us to go into committee, and to pro teed with these resolutions. They have been well consi dered, The scheme must be taken as a whole—embracing, no doubt, imposition and remission —but, viewing it as a whole, I believe that it is a proper and adequate mode for providing for the financial necessities of the year, and for giving remission in that direction where it will be most beneficial to the interests of the country. (Loud cheers.) Mr. E. BALL said that when the right hon. gentleman introduced his budget he, in common with the whole coun- try, felt surprised at the announcement made of the eats- tence of a surplus. That announcement, however, was illu sory, and the statement was therefore utterly without foun dation, as he believed had been clearly pointed out by the hon. member for Horsham. It had always happened that a bad harvest always operated unfavourably on the Customs and Excise of the country, and the last year was not an ex cqtion, and when the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that the shipping interest was in a prosperous condition he forgot to mention that the impor tation of foreign corn was a main element in producing that effect. He contended that, if a remission of duty took place, it ought not to be on that of paper. The Excise duty paid by y manufacturers in this country wa s lid. per pound, while the foreigner paid 21d., and why that advantage P To TiraiGrtect the British manuf ac t urer f rom an undue and un competition ; the more especially when France im- Na ''' ti a duty of CO p er cen t, on rags exported into this niitt " Y• The hon, member f or Abingdon said the other o favour t the manufacturers of paper were genera ll y i n t, could sa t enassion of the t ax; b u t a ll h e ( M r. Ball) y \ v „,, iL‘t h hat he had variou s i n t erv i ews w i t h t h ose gentlemen ; t meats in. th e visited some of th e l arges t establish .to him. VYrn ; and such was net th e f ee li ng ex lr-cssed one e i s ,,, ,it ' t ,.. ll . !ver heard any one of th em , or i n d ee d gentleman haY.ll4reedvetnission o f thi s t ax. It t h e r i ght hen. toc , k amther penny eff tZee'eclin the tax on tea and sugar, or a greater benefit tileeeme tax, it w ou ld h ave con leered than the tax taken offp aper,fm niddle and working classes advantage whatever. Then again hwthich they will d er i ve no ught to know fhat a more tmjant ta:llghthon. gentleman could not be imposed than the malt tot, wh ich p re sßed heavil y 0 and yet he never thought of remitting it, th ou agriculturists, oug,h such a r duction would have materially- increased the °h tio and considerably acid to the revenue. Ile pli g h t havm_P made n such a reduction as would promote the nittwact z_ ota genuine article, and, as he said, a greater colum n , . 41 " . ption.than now existed. In the face of these facts there was that scan - tialeua prohibition by which they were dOarre‘,l use of a commodity employed by them in fattening Cattle. If this country had consented to a small duty on foreign corn, the country might have made millions of revenue withont the consumer paying it. It would have come out of the pocket of the foreign producer. Were that the case they would have no difficulty or hesitation in repealing the paper duty, and if the country party had been more unanimous and resolved they might have commanded the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead of representing, as they now did, the class the most trampled upon in the whole community. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Mr. MARSH said the only question which the house had apparently to decide was, whether the paper duty should be repealed, or a duty of 3d. a pound taken off tea. Tea had a reputation far making people nervous and scurri lous, and he thought that too much of it was drunk. Now, he had entered into a calculation to compare the actual money benefit which well-to-do mechanics would derive from the reduction of the tea duty, compared with what he would derive from the reduction of the paper duty; and as those calculations were based upon a supposition of sd. in the pound duty on tea, they would applyasfortiorito 3. T to the question under consideration in the ratio of rsult he had come to, recognising what he was pleased to observe to be a habit of the working classes, particularly in the north of England, to indulge in literature whilst at their meals, was, that they would be infinitely more bene • fitted by the repeal of the paper duty than by the reduction of the tea duty. A grocer, in a comparatively humble way of business, told him the repeal of the paper duty would save him £5O a year, though of course that would only be the case ultimately. If that duty were taken off, paper would be immediately applied to a variety of purposes for N% hich it had not hitherto been used. In Japan it had long been ap plied in an infinitude of different ways. The paper duty in fact was the last duty remaining of a series of financial im positions, the removal of which had been attended with the most excellent results to the community. Thus in Mr. Hus kisson's time the duty was taken off leather, and although many complained, as some still did, that it did not make their shoes any cheaper, the leather trade had increased beyond measure, and the price of boots had sunk. , He re membered when a ploughman gave 16s. for a strong pair of shoes, whereas he could now get a better pair of boots for 10s. At Northampton and Norwich the manufacture was largely carried on, and our export trade in boots and shoes was very considerable. The repeal of the duty on printed calicoes was another great boon. Pope put "charming chintz" and " Brussels lace" together in the same line as articles accessible to the highest aristocracy only. The re peal of this duty had not only extended the use of the former article throughout all classes of the community, but was now known even to savages. The next duty repealed was the duty on soap, and if it had not reduced its price so much it was because the price of tallow had advanced from 355. to 555. 6d. Then there was the duty on bricks, which had been repealed. The price of bricks varied very much, and it hal not only been lowered by the repeal of the duty, but any one could have a brick of any pattern he chose to order, whereas formerly only the "Parliament brick" could be had. It was said that the duty on bricks did not hamper the trade ; but the mere fact of a licence having to be taken out was proof that it did hamper the trade. The duty on glass had also been repealed, and it had enabled this coun try to rival with success the beautiful manufacture of painted glass, which was formerly carried on only in Bohemia. He was convinced that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was progressing in the path of financial reform, and for that he had his most entire approbation. Mr. FARRER said he did not wish to be understood as desiring to throw an impediment in the way of the Govern ment in the observations he was about to make. He thought it was the duty of the right hon. gentleman to retain the paper duty at present, seeing that its abolition could only benefit, in a very partial manner, a limited class of the com munity, and to reduce the war taxes on' tea and sugar, a course by which he would really confer a most acceptable boon on the poorer and working classes of this country. ,(Hear.) He thought the country was placed in a most difficult position. The right hon. gentleman said he was giving the country something; but he had really not offered the country anything worth accepting. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman took off the income tax of 10d., and he then proposed to-reimpose the tax at 9d., and affected to make a great virtue of making the ratepayers a present of a penny. If he (Mr. Ferrer) were to represent to his constituents that the right hon. gentleman was conferring a great benefit on the country in remitting one penny of the income tax, would they say, " Oh, that will be a great benefit to us." Nothing of the kind ; but if he said there will be a great reduction of duty on the articles of tea and sugar, and on other objec tionable war taxes, they would appreciate the statement. (Hear.) Whatever the hon. member (Mr. Marsh) might say in disparagement of tea affecting the nerves of the people he (Mr. Farrer) should far prefer giving his vote in favour of reducing the duty on that article to giving it in favour of the repeal of the paper duty. The right hon. gentleman, in dealing with the taxation of the country, reminded him of a " hybrid highwayman," who, after having robbed a man of all his apparel, and stripping him quite naked, affected to be moved by his appeal that he felt very cold, and to be very generous he gave him back his great coat. (Laughter.) He hoped the right hon. gentleman and the Government with whom he acted would take back their budget and give to the country a reduction of taxation in matters that would be really beneficial. (Hear.) Mr. BEACH said the right hon. gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had made a great display about an imaginary surplus ; but how was it made out ? Why, by taking from the Excise balances a sum of X 1,450,000. The real fact was, that instead of a surplus there was a large deficiency. Much had been said by the right hon. gentle man about the French commercial treaty which he had en tered into, and of the great advantages he expected from it ; but where was the reciprocity ? With regard to the repeal of the paper duty, the public, in his opinion, would derive no benefit from it; and to effect it, the right hon. gentle man proposed to impose an increase in the duty upon other articles, a reduction in which would really be accepted as a benefit to the country. There were many other articles of Excise upon which the right hon. gentleman might have far better remitted the duty than that of paper, and among them he might mention hops, the reduction of the duty on which would prove a great benefit, not only to those en gaged in agriculture, but to the entire community, (Hear.) Mr. DUTTON said the country had passed through a year of great depression, in which the shipping interest suffered, perhaps, more than any other. Looking, however, at the whole question of taxation, and at the circumstances in which the country was no iv placed, he thought the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was act ing well in proposing the repeal of the paper duty, and that the house could not do bettor than pass his Budget as a whole. (Hear, hear.) If, however, there was any tax which he should prefer to see repealed to the paper duty, it was the malt tax—a tax the repeal of which would really confer a great boon on society. Lord INGESTRE thought the right hon. gentleman would have dons far better had he proposed to effect a large reduction in the income tax than in proposing to repeal the paper duty. He should have been more pleased had the right hon. gentleman proposed to reduce the war duties on tea and sugar. He could not avoid remarking that when ever there was a chance or likelihood of obtaining any good for the working-classes and the labouring poor, the hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright), who talked so much out of doors of the manner in which they were oppressed, and other hon. gentlemen who sat below the gangway and acted with him, were never in their places. He believed that if the house negatived the paper duty and got rid of the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade and of the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, they would remove from the government much of the Democratic element, and make it so far Conservative as to render it unnecessary for those with whom he had the honour of acting, to seek to get possession of, and sit upon the Ministerial benches. (Laughter.) Mr. PEASE would not travel through the mass of figures which had been quoted by hon. members in criti cising the financial statement of the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but this he believed, that the Budget laid before the house by the right hon. gentleman was in all respects sound, honest, and true. Knowledge was power, and therefore the paper duty should be remitted, in order to enable the working classes to acquire knowledge. Some thought the remission of duty should take place on tea, but was China, in • her present disturbed condition, able to yield such a supply of tea as would give the working classes the advantages of such a remission ? The working classes themselves preferred a remission of the paper duty to a reduction of the tea and sugar duties. A working man told him a few days ago that they preferred temperance and knowledge to "slop." He (Mr. Pease) would support the proposition to remit the duty on paper. Mr. HORSFALL believed it an act of common honesty to remove first those taxer that had been laid on to meet the extraordinary exigencies of the country. (Hear, hear.) So long as taxes were required they should be raised both directly and indirectly, but he thought they should Le derived from sources less objectionable and inquisitorial. (Hear, hear.) Mr. VANSITTART said the duty on paper was easily collected, and improved in value every year, and it was a reckless proceeding to remit it, while the war duties on tea and sugar remained undiminished. H o would give his cordial adhesion to the sound practical sentiments uttered by the hon. member for Huntingdon on Monday last.' Mr. LESLIE thought the remission of the paper duty would be a great relief to the industrious classes cf the country at large. Ho hoped the house would not only approve of the remission of the paper duty but of the whole Budget, which he thought highly creditable to the Chan cellor of the Exchequer. Major HAMILTON wished to narrate a story commu nicated to him recently on gocd authority, to show the feeling of the people of Scotland with regard to the paper duties. The hon. member for Edinburgh had been lately addressing his constituents, and having been listened to with much admiration, he asked them if there was any thing more than what he had promised they required from him. Receiving no answer, he asked " would they not like him to present a petition for Reform." They said— " No, we want no reform:" (Laughter.) The hon. mem ber then said, " Wijl you not ask me to present a petition in favour of the remission of the paper duties." They said, "No, if you want a petition to present to the House of Commons let it be against marrying your wife's sister— Oaughter)—and if you, do not try to tike the duty otr te4 and sugar, you need never come down here and wag your head again." (Laughter.) Mr. BLACK—The hon, member has been in a dream all this time. Major HAMILTON said he had the story on good authority; it might, however, be as great a chimera as some parts of the Budget. (Hear.) It was quite true, how ever, that the Scotch people, from the Tweed to John o'Groat's, were for a reduction of the duties on tea and sugar, and no candidate could present himself in Scotland with a more popular cry. He had been a supporter of her Majesty's Government on all constitutional questions, but, in consequence of the speech of the Secretary of the Board of Trade that evening, they might not reckon on his sup port in future. He would conclude with four lines from an Irish poet, who in speaking of the fallen angels said And I forgot my home, my birth ; Profaned my spirit ; sunk my brow; • I revelled in gross joys of earth, And I became what I am now." Next year the Chancellor of the Exchequer might probably sing the same tune. (Laughter.) Mr. CAIRD said that some time ago he had alluded to the deficiency of the harvest, and the fact was that this de ficiency pressed more severely on the farmer than on the consumer, and owing to this the country did not suffer so much as might be expected. They were now importing large quantities of corn into this country, and for the next four months the public would not be great sufferers as re garded the price of bread ; and although he feared there would be a deficiency in the harvest of this year, still he did not anticipate any severe pressure on the public in conse quence. In Ireland, although there was a deficiency in re spect to the growth of corn in that country, still there was a good supply of oats, and this supply counterbalanced the loss on the other article of produce. In Scotland there had been a good harvest, and thus the defect in the harvest in part of the kingdom was met by the production in other parts. There was one other point to which he wished to allude. The Chancellor of the Exchequer alluded to the subject of spirits, and admitted the probable amount which he would receive from that source of revenue. But he be lieved the right hon. gentleman's calculation fell short of the real result, for he believed there would to a large in crease in the growth of barley, and he (Mr. Caird) deduced from this that the right hon. gentleman would reap a much larger return from spirits than he expected. With respect to the abolition of the duty on paper, he looked upon it that this abolition would be beneficial amongst other things to the agricultural interests; inasmuch as it was very likely that straw would be largely used in the manufacture of paper. Upon the whole, he had great pleasure in giving his cordial support to the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Major PARKER said it was admitted that the agricul tural interest suffered severely last year by reason of the bad seasons—and if the manufacturers of this country had suffered in respect to the production of any article of ma nufacture, they would claim the protection of the law in aid of their manufacture. This being so, he thought that sympathy ought to be shown to the farming interest. But he might be told that the duty upon paper ought to be taken off with the view of extending knowledge amongst the people of this country—which was not political and general knowledge—brought home to the doors of the people of this country by means of the cheap press. This being so, he did not see the necessity of reducing the duty on paper. He thought that the way to serve the farmer and benefit the agricultural labourer, and serve the country, would be to take off the duty on malt. Mr. MOFFATT said the great question which they had to consider was this, had-the Chancellor of the Exchequer a surplus?—which he doubted very much, (Hear.) The public had learned not to place full confidence in financial statements, and that of last year in particular might be re ferred to in justification of the doubts entertained by him and others of the estimates now brought forward. The statement of last year contained many predictions which, unfortunately, had not been fulfilled. It was stated, for ex ample, that there was to be an increased duty on chicory, which, with the duty on coffee, would make a revenue of £90,000. He found, however, that the duty from coffee was £14,000, and from chicory £7,500, making together, say £22,000, against the prophesied £90,000 of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, being a decrease of 75 per cent. upon his estimate. (Laughter.) He might refer also to the penny taxation, which was to touch every operation and movement of commerce, and to yield £300,000, but which had proved on the contrary as vexatious and obstructive as it had been unremunerative. The right hon. gentleman's estimated in come from the first source of this nature was the penny charge on parcels, £lOO,OOO ; but the actual revenue yielded from the units of entry did not exceed £12,000, being a de crease of 83 per cent. (Laughter.) The stamps on contracts were to yield £lOO,OOO. Now, he could not get at the exact figures so accurately as he wished, but they had the admission of the right hon. gentleman himself that the revenue from this source formed but a small proportion of the estimated revenue, it being only £7,000, instead of £lOO,OOO. (Renewed laughter.) As regarded the revenue to be derived from inland bonding charges, there was also a complete failure. The right hon. gentleman told them that there had arisen an overwhelming necessity for in creased bonding accommodation, and that it was found im possible any longer to defer granting it to the trade of the provinces. To meet the necessary expenses it was stated tbat an increased tax must be imposed, and accordingly a charge of one quarter per cent. was put upon every transac tion in the Custom-house. Of those there were a million during the past year, so that a million calculations had to be made en constantly varying sums. But had the country had the extra bonding accommodation which it had thus paid for ? Birmingham, Sheffield, Leeds, and other towns were to have bonding stores, but hitherto only one of them had been opened, and that was at Bradford, for which the trade of the country had paid £50,000 in that most vexa tious and obstructive manner. Instead of £120,000 which it was expected to yield, it had produced only £60,000, or ,50 per cent. less. (Cheers and laughter.) He thought, therefore, looking at the complete falsification of the right hon. gentleman's calculations last year, that there was rea sonable ground for the house withholding its confidence from those which he now set before them until facts had been communication that placed them in a more reliable form. He regretted to see that the national debt was being increased at a formidable rate, and if they made a false step at this critical moment, it would be extremely difficult, if possible, to regain their present position. (Hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that there would be a surplus of £1,900,000, of which he attributed £300,000 to an increase in customs, and £300,000 to an increase in the land revenue. They were told that this was the calculation, not of the right hon. gentleman, but of the officers of the Ex chequer. He submitted, however, that as guardians of the public purse they were bound to have something better than the authority of those officers before they shut their eyes to the cloudy and disastrous prospects that lay before them. If they had a bad harvest the right hon. gentleman • would certainly get no increase ; if they had an average 1 one he would lose £360,000 in the duty on corn. There was also a considerable item with respect to which he con fessed he could not agree to the accuracy of the right hon. gentleman's figures—he meant the customs duty on paper. The right hon. gentleman said that the customs duty on paper which he should have to relinquish as a corollary to his repeal of the excise duty would be about £15,000. Mr. GLADSTONE—For this year. Mr. MOFFATT—For this year. Now that he (Mr. Moffatt) thought was a very low estimate ; for his at. tention had been directed to a return moved for by Lord Camperdown in another place, from which he fowl that the increase in the customs duty on paper had latterly been very large indeed. In 1858 it was £9,000 ; in 1860 it had grown to £27,000. (Hear, hear, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) It further appeared that in the first quarter of the present year up to March 31, the amount of duty received was £14,057. (Hear, hear.) If that was correct, it was at the rate of £56,000 a year. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (with some vehemence)—Hear, hear. Mr. MOFFATT—WeII, if he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) did hot know the difference between £15,000 and £56,000 (Loud cheers.) The right hon. gentleman stated that the loss would be £15,000; and he had shown that the duty was coining in at the rate of £s6,ooo—yet the right hon. gentleman cheered him derisively. He confessed he could not see why. (Hear.) This item, with the loss of the corn duty, it the harvest was an average one, would make about £lOO,OOO. Then the right hon. gentleman put the increase of the income- tax at £280,000 ; but considering what an unfortunate year the last was, he should rather conclude that there would be a decrease. (Hear, hear ) There was another item which really required explanation. The right bon. gentleman said that he did not intend to give up more than half the year's paper duty; but every commercial man would know that from the moment the re peal of the tax was announced it would give itself up. The right hon. gentleman said he meant to keep the duty on till the Ist of October ; but there was not a paper manufacturer in the country who would do more than make up that which lie had in pulp at the passing of the act. The loss therefore would be not £650,000, but the whole £1,200,000. (Loud cheers.) That certainly was a very large sum to lose, un less, indeed, the right hon. gentleman had some nostrum in store to prevent the catastrophe. (A laugh.) Lastly, there was the sum that it was alleged we should receive from China. Ho (the hon. member) had listened with great at tention to all that fell from the right hon. gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson) in answer to the hon. gentleman the member for Horsham (Mr. S. FitzgerAld), but he confessed that he could make nothing out of it that was at all satisfactory. The case was this. By the treaty the Chinese had bound themselves to pay us 4600,000 sterling, of which £300,000 had already been paid, leaving Z 2,300,000, which was to be paid in quarterly instalments, out of one-fifth of the cus toms revenues of China. The President of the Board of Trade (Ur. Gibson) had expressed his surprise at the figures quoted by the hon. member, but they were merely the ordi- nary consular returns, which were open to everybody. From these it appeared that the customs duties for 1859 had been £1,300,000, with the exception of the tax on opium, -which might be £400,00/ or £500,000 more. In fact the total cus toms duties of China could not be more than £1,700,000, o f which one-fith would be £350,000. We had already receive] £320,000, less some considerable redactions, at Canton, FO that the whole sum that would be due to us in the year commencing Jan. 1 would not be more than £660,000. But this was not all. Of the 8,000,000 taels that we were to re cCiVe, 4 1444 explicitly stated in the treaty that 2,000,000 should be paid to the merohants at Canton, and "the re mainder"--for that was the word in the treaty-eveas to be applied by her Majesty's Government towards defrayir g the cost of the expedition. Now the 2,000,000 taels would be £650,000, and therefore if they did justice and right to the Canton merchants there would be nothing due to the Exchequer. He would not believe that any honest man would dispute the right of the merchants. Why, some of their property had actually been taken by our forces, forthe purpose of their offensive operations ; and they had already been kept five years out of the recompense which was due to them. He could not think that her Majesty's Government would descend to chaffer and haggle with the merchants of Canton. (Cheers.) He would now make a summary of his objections to the surplus. At present it stood at £1,900,000. Very grave doubt existed as to £300,000 of the customs; and as to the estimated increase of inland revenue, £300,000 of it had not been explained to the house. Then of the £750,000 China money, he asserted that they could not, consistently with justice, receive £lOO,OOO, and £600,000 of paper duty they could not possibly obtain. It resulted, therefore, that £1,300,000 of his surplus they would certainly not get, and the remaining £600,000 was some what contingent. (Cheers.) He should have been much more pleased to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but they were there to take care of the public finances rather than of any special individual. He would not go into the comparative merits of a reduction of the duty on tea or of an abolition of that on paper. He would only quote the words of the right hon. gentleman when he said, " Talk of tea being the rich man's luxury—it is the poor man's, and above all it is the poor woman's luxury." (Cheers.) There might be some reason why the right hon. gentleman had since changed his views ; but he need not discuss that ques tion. His conviction was that there was no surplus to dis pose of, and he had abundantly shown that there was no case for remitting any tax at the present moment at all. (Cheers.) Mr. WHITESIDE observed that the right hon. gentle man the President of the Board of Trade seemed to think that sufficient to the year was the evil thereof; but it ap peared to him important to look to the future when they were getting rid of permanent revenue, unless indeed they wished to be in the position which the present Government delighted always to be in —that of leaving a deficit. He should like to know what was the object which those who framed the present budget had had in view. Was it eco nomy or the removal of public burdens, or was it not rather the sole purpose of getting rid of the paper duties? (Hear, hear.) As a private gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had no doubt done perfectly right, considering the pledges he had given, the speeches he had made, and the intimacies he had formed. (A laugh.) But he would only deal with him in his ministerial capacity, and he must say that a great part of the right honourable gentleman's speech was made up of a censure upon his colleagues, the House of Commons, and himself. (A laugh.) They might look on this budget in a financial point of view, in a con stitutional point of view, in a political point of view, and in a ministerial point of view. With regard to a political budget it might be regarded as a "gigantic innovation." (" Hear," and a laugh.) In a political point of view it might be said that the Government were trying to do that which they could not do constitutionally. He admitted that the right lion. gentleman with the boldness of a genius went in search of a surplus, and he went, strange to say, for that purpose to China. (" Hear," and a laugh.) He (hit. Whiteside) would never depart from the opinion he had previously expressed on the Chinese war—that it was a flagitious war—(hear, hear)—and he should always think a most unwise and unjustifiable war—which the right hon. gentleman himself at one time condemned, though he had been obliged to find the means. of carrying it on. (Hear.) He (Mr. Whiteside) hiving listened to the statements of the right hon. gentleman, was only astonished that men of business and men of sense should give up so productive a source of revenue as tie paper duty, which was increasing in value from year to year, on the chances of receiving this money from China, of vhich, for anything they knew, not a single guinea would ever reach this country. (Hear.) Last year the right hon. gentleman calculated an increase in the spirit duties, but which he had failed to realise, and he was wrong by a sun of £OOO,OOO in his calculations. (Hear.) Then, jest as the summer was setting in with its usual severity—(a laugi)—the right hon. gentleman came down with a supplementary budget, and ho made a speech on Ireland, which had undoubtedly alarmed him (Mr. Whiteside). The right hon. gentleman certainly spoke truly as to the increasing prosperity of Ireland ; he also ex plained what he would to with the spirit duty, and the dis tinctions which existed eetween tea and sugar, and spirits. As regarded these two former articles, he was desirous to increase their consumption ; but as regarded spirits, he wished to proceed in an inverse ratio. The right hon. gentleman also prophesied that the duty on spirits would produce an enlarged permanent revenue from year to year, and that that source of revenue was to produce £2,250,000 per year. lut prudence come to the aid of the right hon. gentleman, rho said that prudence necessarily compelled him to make an allowance for diminished con sumption of spirits, and therefore he would assume that the augmentation] of the revenue from that source would be only £1,000,000 for the whole year; and upon that calcula tion the receipts from that source from that period to the end of the financial year would be £600,000, but on Decem er 31 the right hon. gentler an found that the income from that ;source was £200,000 less than he calculate 1 upon. (Hear, hear.) In wines the right hon. gentleman was sue • cessful, but in spirits he was not. The right hon. gentle man said that when the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks was Chancellor of the Exchequer he had, with the consent of the trade, equalised the duty on spirits in the three kingdoms. lie (Mr. Whiteside) had heard per sons in the trade speak of that equalisation as having been a benefit. The u ight hon. gentleman having pro phesied a success, and met with a failure last year, now told the house that they might hope for success next e ear. The Irish distillers did not complain of that equalisation of the spirit duties in the three kingdoms, but they did com plain that the Government should go on in these annual i. terferences, which had proved all but ruinous to the trade. 'I hey submittel that last year's experiment had been a failure, and that one of the results was that illicit distillation was rapidly me the increase. The large sums which great capitalists vere obliged to expend in the erec tion of great buildings was another source of complaint, and they saw tho increase o! duty led to a loss of upwards of £500,000 or £600,000. je (Mr. Whiteside) had received communications f om three of the largest distillers in Dub lin. The first was el r. 800, who said it would be impossible to conduct business unites the Chancellor of the Exche quer returned to the eqvalised duty from which ho h a d de parted. Another very ed i nent firm—the Messrs. Jamieson —wrote to the same offeci, as did Sir J. Power, who pledged himself to the truth of these facts ; therefore the house could not rely on the statements which had been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Then came the question —would the house like to continue the income tax at the rate proposed, and the duties on tea and sugar, i n order that they might obtain the r eduction of the duty on paper ? (Hear, from the Opposition:) The right hon. gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson) had given, as a reason for that repeal, the fact that the house, he said, h a d pledged itself to a solution on the subject. Y es , b r e at th at time the h ouse mus t re collect that the i ncome t ax was only sd. i n the [poun d . There was nothing therefore in the argument that because the house had pledged itself to an abstract resolution year's ago they would now repeal the paper duty. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) 'tit still there was the question, had the Chancellor of the Exchequer such a surplus as would warrant him in repealing the paper duty ? (Hear.) He (Mr. Whiteside) doubted it. He had heard the right hon. gentleman in mans speeches in that house endeavour tax was an immoral tax, a to nd d demonstrate that ttihtawt was sea away artax. (Hear.) He (Mr. White side contended that it they repealed a tax at all it should not repel of the co rn l aws , b u t h e i ncome tax. The paper duty e b x e is th te e d p a a t p t e h r e du ti t m y, e bu oi t . t t )L e: had not heard of any one Proposing that the duty on paper should be repealed in preference. (Hear, hear.) If any one offered a hungry man a loaf in one hand and a penny newspaper in the other, le (Mr. Whiteside) was afraid the poor man would be so blind to the intellectual advantages of the latter that he world refuse the paper and take the loaf. (A laugh.) The Ci.luee'L:ur of the Exchequer wanted to make people sober by rsising the duty on spirits—(hear) but he wondered that the fertile mind of that right hon. gentleman did not see that that might be accomplished by lowering the duties on tea and sugar which the popu lation indulged in. ehe advantage to the public of the repeal of the paper duty would be only one halfpenny on a 2s. book. (Hear.) And then coming down to a sixpenny book, which the poorer classes would be more likely to purchase, there would be no advantage to the poor man at all; and it might easily be- assumed that the poor man would rather hare the duty taken off tea than off the paper in which it was wrapped up. (Hear.) As he understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer the case was this, that he in tended to include all his resolutions in one bill, whereas there was a separate bill in last year's budget for the paper duties. This measure had been fairly considered in a separate bill last year, and sent up to the other house, and fortunately for the Chancellor of the exchequer, who had a deficiency, it was rejected. (Hear.) They might contend that accord ing to old usage such a thing might be done, but with all due deference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that did not answer the constitutional question. Although they might find old precedents to justify the course they had adopted, yet practice was the best exponent of the principles of the constitution, and modern practice, and their own practice last year, proved tiat their present attempt ought not to be countenanced. ?here were two great authorities on the subject. One of then (Mr. Hallam) who had written what was called an honest book on the constitution, gave it as his decided opinion in rta analogous case that the justice and sense of the matter were with the House of Lords. And Lord ➢Macaulay, who had ]eft them a posthumous legacy in his last volume on the " astory of England," discusses the same question. The Hour ) of Commoss determined to pass a bill to restore the forfeited estate of be house of Ormond, and in order to deprive tilt other houseof Parliament from making any alteration in the bill, they acked it on to a bill which imposed a 2s. lam tax; and Lord Macaulay said _ _ that the ruling demagogues of the Rotse of Commons in- sisted that the measure relating to the Duke of Ormond should be tacked on to the Bill of Supply, lie said there was conference after conference between the two houses, but the House of Comnons was determined, and effected twit purpose, The ;aistoritua quoted Ow apeeelz of 9129 of the speakers on that occasion, who said if the Lords ob jected to their tacking such a bill asthat to a bill of supply, let them take care that they did not tack to a future bill a bill of attainder, and Lord Macaulay said that was worthy of the worst days of the French revolution. He (Mr. Whiteside) submitted to the better judgment of those who heard him, that it would be a more constitutional, a more manly, more direct, and more usual course to propose the bill that they passed before ; and if it-were recommended by the deliberate opinion of the House of Commons, he was satisfied that it would be met with respect in the other house. Nothing but an overwhelming sense of duty would have caused the House of Lords to do what they did last year, and in doing it he believed they were upheld by the voice of the nation. The right hon. gentleman at the close of his able speech made what struck him at the time as a most extraordinary statement from one in his position. He said that if there were one danger more than another which threatened the country it was their recent unbounded ex cess in expenditure, and that when they perceived the rate that they had been advancing at for a number of years they would see that there had been a tendency to break down all barriers ; that in that they saw the beginning of an evil which threatened the existence of the nation. Why did not the right hon. gentleman, instead of attacking the House of Commons, tittack his colleagues ? But his col leagues knew that the expenditure was necessary. The Prime Minister the other night at the Mansion-house made a characteristic general speech, in which he said there was material for half a dozen wars in the present state of Eu rope. He believed the noble lord was right. The noble lord took larger views of policy, and when he gave that opinion on the position of foreign affairs, how absurd it was of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to speak of extra vagance. The hon. member for Montrose pointed to the example of the United States, but he did not tell them where those states were. Their Government was cheap be cause it was bad, and ours was dear because it was good. He thought that the more this question of the budget was in vestigated the more the truth of the censure pronounced upon it by the hon. member for Huntingdon would be dis covered—namely, that it was not an honest budget. (Oh.) He thought that it was the right word in the right place, He trusted it would be acted upon by the house, and he was well convinced that if it were that action would be approved of by the country. Mr. H4LIBURTON said the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade announced that there were inconsistencies in the members on that (the opposition) side of the house. He dared say there were. He never saw a body of men yet who throughout their whole lives did not see some occasion to change their opinions; but when the right hon. gentleman made that charge, every member of the administration, from the head of the Government to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, knowing that they had them selves been guilty of so many inconsistencies, looked as if they could protect themselves from their enemies, but prayed God to help them from their friends. He listened with great attention to the exposition of the financial state ment, and at the conclusion of that elaborate and very delu sive speech the right hon. gentleman indulged in self-con gratulation of no ordinary nature, and, in fact, such a nature as it had never before been his good fortune to hear. If it had not been that the subject was so grave, it would have been a matter of great amusement. Drawing himself up, he heard in the distance the approaching thunder of the great crash which was to overwhelm us, from false pro phecies, from groundless prognostications, and a variety of other amplifications of the kind of which the right hon. gen tleman's vocabulary was so full. He (Mr. Haliburton) liked to see a person who had performed what he considered a great feat satisfied with what he had performed, but there was a limit even to a man's boasting on that subject. Now these prognostications, these prophecies, and all these other spectres, were raised by the right hon. gentle man's own imagination, for no one else ever heard of them, and they were raised that he might show the skill of the magician in laying them. The right hon, gentle man flattered himself that this was the very budget that was necessary—that, so far from the public being sur prised at it, the public had expected it. It was known that there was a deficit, but by the skilful handling of the right hon. gentleman that deficit became a surplus. It was well known that the debt incurred by the Chinese war was so great that it had not yet been counted, but that accruing debt was thrown into deep shadow in the distance, while the stipulated sum the Chinese were to pay was brought into the broad light of the foreground. All this was well known, and it was well known that there would be an at tempt to use this figurative surplus for a political purpose ; and as the right hon. gentleman appeared to be a man who neither forgot nor forgave, he resolved to put himself square with the other house of Parliament for the rejection of the paper duty last year. This was well known, and that the budget would be lauded. It was well known that the itine rant politician and platform orator and demagogue who had sown seeds of sedition broadcast, and who strove to set the labourers against their employers, and the lower classes of the people against the upper, would approve of the budget, because they saw in it the means of bringing out in strong relief that which they had in view, the disunion between the two branches of the Legislature. (Hear.) It was well known also that it would be praised and extolled to the skies by that mendacious and audacious and wicked body of men who in the most unblushing way dared to affirm in this house, and on public occasions elsewhere, that the army was not supported for the defence of the nation, or for the maintenance of its position on the face of Europe, or for the protection of our commerce or our colonies, but for the mean and base and despicable purpose of supporting the younger branches of the aristocracy—(hear, hear) — and that those branches were to be supported by the taxes arising from the hard earnings of the poor. (Hear, hear.) To those and such like people that was an object of great gratulation. (Laughter.) It was a difficult thing for an honest man—(laughter)--to draw comfort from the dissemination of falsehood and slander. (Hear, hear.) But he was glad that they had been uttered, and that they had been disseminated, because this very budget and pro tended surplus had been shown to the house to be hollow and unfounded. Whatever might be the vain-glorious boastings and assumptions of others, the Conservatives were the real Liberals of England. Let the people come forward and assist them in seeking relief from the pressure which fell upon the lower classes. In a country like this, of such extended commerce, and of such a high state of civilisation, there must be in the most prosperous times a high rate of taxation to provide for the interest of the national debt and for the army and navy, which must be kept up in a state of efficiency equal to any emergency. It was the duty of both sides of the house to apportion the burdens of the people, and that had been done, so that it fell equally upon all who could bear them—(hear)—and notwithstanding the temptations which had been held out, and the falsehoods which had been uttered by wicked men, they were borne with unflinch ing firmness and without a murmur. Now, therefore, was the time at vfhieh the sincerity of the people would be test Id, and could any man for a moment suppose that the duties upon tea and sugar and paper were upon the same footing? (Hear, hear.) Could any man say they had the same bearings upon all classes of society ? To say that the tax upon paper was a tax upon knowledge was the veriest cant he had ever heard. (Hear, hear.) If there was one thing more detestable than another it was cant, whether political or religious, and nothing was more destructive in its consequences. (Hear.) Last year a great deal was said about America—a country which had neither the incubus of a monarch, nor a House of Lords, nor an Established Church—a country laid out like a checkered board, beauti ful to look at. (Laughter.) All that amazed and astonished him, because of the ignorance which was exhibited. It was surprising that sensible men could fall into such delusion. (Hear.) But they heard no more of these things now, nor was it likely they would again. Nothing but cant had been the cause of the disunion of the United States of America. He spoke it boldly, that it was the result of political cant. (Cries of " Question.") As the subject appeared distasteful he would pass on to another. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought proper, in his self-glorification on Monday night, to allude in disrespectful and scornful terms to a petition which he had presented from the colonies of North America, on the equali- cation of the timber duties, and he took great exception to the insolence of the language of the right hon. gentleman. (Order, order.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he rose to complain of the language of the hon. member, not on personal grounds, but because it had reference to the dignity of the house. The SPEAKER said the expressions of the hon. raem ber were not parliamentary. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. lIALIBURTON said he bowed 0 the decision of the chair; he withdrew the words which he had pronounced and he regretted that he had used them. (Hear, and cheers, If be had spoken warmly, he felt deeply. (Hear.) The petition which he presented-(Question.) This was part of the question which was under discussion, viz., a reduc. tion of duties for which credit had been taken, and he sub• mitted that he was within the limits of the discussion. The petitioners prayed that on a certain class of timber—boards, battens, and deals—the duty might not be taken off withou some notice ; but it was decided against them, and they submitted, and there was an end of the matter. But he was very much astonished to hear it again alluded to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in the language to which he had taken exception. Their request was not unreason. able ; but if it were, was that peculiar ? Had no unreason able requeEt3 come from Ireland, Scotland, and other parts of the empire ? (Divide.) When the right hon. gentleman said he had heard predictions of ruin from the North Ame- rican colonies he had been grossly deceived. Ruin I It was not in the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by whatever 1 •gislation he introcl aced, nor in the power of Par liament, to ruin that country. It was too young, vigorous, and enterprising, and too full of resources to be ruined by anything except the hand of God or its own folly. The right hon. gentleman could never have heard those predic tions ; and es to the " doleful wail" across the Atlantic, why that was not language to be applied to a respectful petition from those colonies, which, now that a disruption had taken place in the United States, would take the lead among the nations on the American continent. From 1620, when the Puritans first landed on its shores, to the present day, no such thing as a doleful wail had been heard coming from that country. The right hon. gentleman's nerves really seemed to be strung on the principle of an Zolian harp, every breeze against the chords of which produced doleful and melancholy music. He should advise the righthon. geriticizatz ueyor to cross the AtWale, or he W9uld - Awl that, his harp would very soon be rendered mute. He would re commend him rather to go to Coventry. (Laughter.) There he would hear a doleful tale. (Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) There he would find a population who a year ago were in dustrious, thriving, happy, and contented, now reduced to a state of beggary and destitution in consequence of his French treaty. (Oh, oh.) There he would see pallid cheeks and attenuated frames, broken looms, and broken hearts, that would make the stout man shudder and the good man weep, (Laughter, and hear, hear.) There, indeed, he would hear a doleful wail. Or, if he would not go there, let him go to Oxford. (A. laugh.) He would there see his own consti tuents wandering stout those shady groves of Arcadia like the remnants of a past age, occupying themselves with the hobbies of a past age, and teaching the dialects of the dead to living men. (Laughter.) He would hear moans about a tacit contract between him and them having been broken. Whoever had the high honour of representing that great, learned, and venerable institution should be a staunch supporter of the instiutiona of Church and State, and not a man who gave a cold and reluctant vote, or a silent and sneering support, in their interest— Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, And, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer. (Laughter and cries of "Divide I") What had they got to divide upon ? (Ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) They would divide in good time, and perhaps hon. members opposite would be surprised at the result. (Cheers.) He had now done with that subject. (Divide.) . He entered his protest against such a reception as his fellow country men on the other aide of the Atlantic had received from the right hon. gentleman. They did not deserve it at his hands. (Hear, hear.) They were a loyal people. They had given a reception to the heir apparent of this empire in the last season such as no member of the House of Hanover had ever experienced since that family had sat on the throne of England. (Hear.) They venerated our institutions, and were fond of British connection. He thought that every member of that house would agree with him when he said that the independence and manliness of that people, and their loyalty and attachment to this country, entitled them to our respect ; and their lineage, language, and consan guinity to us entitled them at all events to our best atten tion. (Cheers.) Mr. B. OSBORNE said one of the inconveniences of an adjourned debate—especially one on which no definite issue was raised—(cheers)—was, that they were puzzled to dis cover not only what they were debating but what they were going to divide upon. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman who had just resumed his seat—to use his own expression, "a remnant of a past age"—(a laugh)—had discussed nearly every subject except the issue before the house. He was a gentleman famed for his great literary abilities, and for his works of fiction, which were universally read ; but after Le exhibition he had made that night, he (Mr. Os borne) would advise him to undertake a new edition of " The Rambler." (Laughter, and oh, oh.) The principal part of his speech had been devoted to the loyalty of the colonies and the warm reception they had given to the Prince of Wales, facts with which he supposed the Chan cellor of the Exchequer was not sufficiently acquainted. But was the house going to divide upon that subject ? (Hear, hear.) The honourable gentleman was one of those who prognosticated a very large deficit, and he now seemed disappointed at finding, instead of a deficit, a sur plus. (Oh, oh.) Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer had better means of ascertaining the truth than the hon. gentleman who had passed so much of his time on the other side of the Atlantic. Now, what was that sur plus F (Hear, hear. Hon. gentlemen opposite had two great assistants in their sanguine gloom—the Chinese war and 'he bad harvest—but in spite of these afflictions there was a surplus. The Chancellor of the Exchequer with the revenue for 18f 1-62 at £71,823,0,10, and the expenditure at £69,900,000, had a surplus of £1,923,000. The hon. member for Horsham had ably questioned the Chinese indemnity, but the President of the Board of Trade had entirely and satisfactorily disposed of that matter in the answer wl ich he gave. (Hear, hear.) Now the question which the house was bound to ask itself was, with that surplus, and in the present state of the country and Europe, ought any taxes to be remitted at all ? He took it that no Chancellor of the Exchequer with such a surplus could avoid remitting some taxation, and he believed there would be a general agree ment in the house that the income-tax was the first that ought to be dealt with. (Hear, hear.) The income-tax was originally taken—he would not say on false pretences, be cause that was a hard word—for a period of only three years, but it had lasted until now. I t pressed with peculiar severity on clerks and people of small incomes between £4OO and £5OO a-year, and it was the general wish of the house and the country that it should be the first tax to be materially reduced. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had very wisely thrown them a penny. It was a small sum, but still it was something, and it showed that the Chancellor of the Exche quer was inclined to reduce the tax if he were permitted to do so. (Hear, hear.) The next question was what other tax ought to be remitted. They could not suppose that all re missions would be upon direct taxation. Something must necessarily be done with the indirect taxes. The budget must be considered in two aspects—its fiscal and its political light. Taking a fiscal view of the question he would much rather have seen, supposing nothing else had happened, a reduction of the tea and sugar duties. (Cheers.) But he could not consider it in that light alone. They must take a constitutional view of the matter. They must cons der in what position the paper duty question had got by the con duct of this house, and by the vote in another place. It was not that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was pledged to the repeal of that duty, but that the House of C. mmon was pledged to it. (Hear, hear.) How often the question had come before them. (Hear, hear.) This ought to be a lesson to the house not to have any more abstract resolutions. The most dangerous things ever done were done by abstr :ct resolutions. He himself never voted for the abstract resolution on the paper duties, but the house having passed it was in his opinion pledged to their repeal. When the present President of the Bo trd of Trade proposed this resolution in 1858, it was generally asserted to, and opposed by the only Teal consistent member in the house. No charge for inconsistency could therefore be brought against the hon. member for Not folk (Mr. Bentinck), who was a fine specimen of fossil remains. (Laughter.) The Pre sident of the Board of Trade moved an amen went on going into committee of supply to the effect that the maintenance of an excise duty on paper as a permanent source of revenne was impolitic, and that such financial arrangements should be made as would enab e Parliament to remove that tax. The right hon. member for Bucks, who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not oppose that motion : he said, "Leave out all the words after impolitic and I 11 assent to it." (Hear, hear.) He laid it down, in fact, in 1858, that the tax was not to be permanent, (Hear, hear.) But he did more. He said, having previously voted for the repeal, " I can take this opportunity of stating that I look upon this tax as one of thost which, when a favourable oprortunity arrives —(hear, hear, from the Opposition) — yes, when a favourable oppor rtuigniaitty h a on. rrive'—he(Mr. Osborne) a pp re h en d ed that the gentleman meant when there was a surplus. Of course the hon. gentlemen denied that there was a sur plus; if they did not they would have no case. Their mis fortune was that they had no case, and were, therefore, obliged to make rambling speeches about America and every other conceivable topic. The right hon. gentleman went on to say. " I should be glad to see this tax erased from our fiscal system." Mark I " Looking at it in a moral, political, and educational point of view, I shall be glad to propose its total abolition." (Cheers.) There could be no doubt then that the two great men of the Conserva tive party—whom they had stolen from the Liberals, the right hon. member for Bucks, who had made his party what they were, whom they could not do without—(cheers) and the right hon. member for Hertfordshire, the brain; and heart of their party, had both put their stigma on this tax, and both had voted for its remission. (Cheers.) What then was the position in which the house found itself at the present moment. They had another Chancellor of the Exchequer equal to the two gentlemen he had mentioned in every respect, and he proposed the remission of the duty. He (Mr. Osborne) had not been breast high for the abstract _ _ _ resolution, but the house affirmed it; the house subse quently reduced the duty, and every one kn ew w h a t sub _ __ sequently happened in the House of Lords. Did hon. members opposite mean to say that it was not a great calamity to have the two branches of the legislature at issue on a question of excise ? (Hear, hear.) He thought it was a great calamity, and he for one was willing that the first opportunity should be taken when they had a surplus. (Opposition cheers.) Gentlemen opposite were great sticklers for constitution and authority; and was it they who wished to keep the two houses in a state of discord ? But they were the remnants of a past age. (Loud cries of " Oh, oh," from the opposition.) He could tell the hon. and gallant member for Limerick, who had only just joined the party, that the words were not his; it was the hon. and learned member for Launceston who had called gentlemen around him the remnants of a past age. These were his reasons for giving his support to the repeal of the paper duty. They had got into such a position with reference to the House of Lords that he felt grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for having taken the first opportunity for settling the question. What had been tho course pursued on this occasion by the Opposition ? Ho must confess himself to be surprised and puzzled by the tactics of the other side. He had listened with respect to the hon. mem ber for Huntingdon, and had heard him say that the budget was neither sane nor moral, nor even honest to the country. (Opposition cheers.) If gentlemen opposite thought so, why not come forward and meet the budget boldly by a negative ? Did they think to do as they had done in the case of the Reform Bill of last year, and talk it out. (Hear, hear.) Why had not the hon. member for Huntingdon moved a direct negative ? But no. " he back recoiled, he knew not why, Frightened at the sound himself had made." The hon. member had Sneered at the budget, had ques.- tioned the existence of a surplus; but he made no motion. Then there was the hen. and enthusiastic member for Cam bridgeshire. To him he (Mr. Osborne) might say, in the words of Collins— ti With woeful accents, wan despair— Low, sullen sounds his grief beguiled, A solemn strain and mingled air; 'Twas sad by starts, by fits 'twas will." (Laughter.) But that description answered for the whole of the opposition. If they said the budget was neither moral, political, nor honest, they should come forward aid vote want of confidence in the Government. Were they prepand ty cl 9 that? (Hear, hear.) The right/144i mere• ber for Bucks had, the other evening, said he had not made up his mind ; and as for the hon. member for Huntingdon, who could discover his meaning ? They said the budget of ministers was unsafe, dishonest, and immoral, and yet they were not prepared to turn them .out. He (Mr. Osborne) hoped they would not take back their budget ; he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would act with his usual firm ness, and that the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade would persist in dividing the house, even if it carnet° a vote of want of confidence. The right hon. member for the University of Dublin had addressed some words to the Chan cellor of the Exchequer which were wellworthyof considera tion. He (Mr. Osborne) quite agreed with the right hon. gentleman. It was not sufficient that the Chancelloroftheßx chequer should come down to the house and read it lectures - - on its extravagance. To do so was an anomalous proceeding -- to remit two millions of taxation when they had agreed to bor row 11 millions for fortifications. He should not have been • contented to read lectures, he should have proposed redne tions. If the right hon. member did so he would not only be supported by a numerous party in that house, hut he would have with him all the right-thinking people in th e country. Having stated his intention of voting with the Go" vernment, he must say, in conclusion, that no Governmen t would be justified in future in bringing forward any budge which did not contemplate wise and economical measures of financial reform and a judicious reduction of expenditure. Major EDWARDS contradicted the statements of the . President of the Board of Trade as to the prosperity of the manufacturing districts. In Bradford, Huddersfield, Leedel and Halifax the mills were working two-thirds time, and the merchants did not know what to make, so glutted wer e the markets of the world. It was the same story from India, America, and China. If they were to reduce the taxation Of the country they naturally looked to the gentleman who had given solemn pledges that the first tax to be repealed was the income tax, and no man ever dreamt of any other tax being repealed until, at all events, that tax was materially reduced. The paper manufacturers did not care about the repeal of the paper duty ;it was only the penny A-liners and proprietors of cheap newspapers who wished for the repeal of that duty. Could any one believe they had in that house such a party on the Treasury bench that they could rely upon on " all occasions ? He denied there was any unani" mity on the Treasury bench. If report spoke truly it was only on Monday week, and late in the day, that the terms, of the budget were settled. If he were in the position of his honourable friend the member for Birmingham he should consider himself one of the proudest men on the face of the earth, and he shOuld fancy —nay, he should more than fancy—that he was Prime Minister of *his coun try. (Cheers and laughter.) It was patent to the w hole country that, through the nominees of his hon. friend in the Government, he had been able to effect what the Prime Minister could not have done without him. (Loud Oppo position cheers.) It was well known that only a small section of the present Government were in favour of taking off the duty on paper ; but they came to the question, " Was the. Government to depend on it or not ?" Then the ques tion followed, " Shall the majority succumb to the minority, or shall we go out ?" (Opposition cheers and laughter.) He, therefore, contended the hon. member for Birmingham had carried his point, and done more than any Prime Minister could have done without him. (Hear, hear.) He had listened to many excellent speeches during the course of this debate, and he came to the conclusion that instead of a surplus we had a deficiency of two millions and a half• Under such circumstances he felt they could not go fairly before the country and say they were in a position to reduce taxation. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MAGUIRE said he would argue this question 0 . 0 having no reference to party, for it was not a party ques tion. (Hear, hear.) He intended to apply himself solelY to the question of the abolition of the paper duties, and here he must observe that it was well known to the gentlemen from Ireland that he was connected with the Press of Ireland. It was well known that, as far as he was concerned, it would be his interest to have things in connection with the paper duties remain as they were. The question then before them was this—could they at that time reduce the paper duty ? He would here remark that he had not heard throughout the debate one word from any one on the morality or desirability of continuing the paper duties. It was true that the hon. gentieman who last ad dressed the house had spoken of the cheap press—whom be designated as penny-a -liners—as being advocates of the reduction of the paper duties. He had not troubled himself to inquire whether there would be a surplus, because he was bound to assume that There would be, since the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had said so on his official responsi bility. Though the hon. member for Huntingdon had criticised the right hon. gentleman's figures, he did not think their general accuracy had been materially shaken. He now wished the house to consider the state of the paper trade, which, though it had been described as one of the most insignificant, was really one of the most important, and it was now in jeopardy, as he should show. It was not the fault of the Government that the tax was not re pealed last year; and yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after having stated that the manufacture was in a weak and crippled condition, had given a decided advantage to the foreign over the home producer. The question, how ever, was, whether they ought to redeem pledges given by them as the most important branch of the constitution. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the state of the paper manu facture, ho could tell the house, on the authority of a mem ber of a firm in Ireland, which was in the habit of sending six tons of paper every week to London for the use of the cheap press, that from the Ist of September last it had not sent a single sheet there. Putting a value of £56 a ton on that paper there was a loss to that firm alone of £lB,OOO per annum, from which they could judge how the duty affected the working rural population. English firms also had lost from 20 to 25 per cent, of their incomes, and one very painful feature of the case was that there were now in London certain papers which were printed on Belgian paper. The cheap press which had sprung up within the last two or three years, now numbered 100 different papers throughout the country, consuming, on an average circus lation of 6,000 copies each, 120 reams a day, the total value of which was £936,000. That was an interest so large and so important, that he did not suppose any hon. gentleman would treat it with disdain. He should vote for the budget, in the hope that the paper duty would be repealed. On the motion of Mr. HORSMAN, The debate was adjourned to Monday. The Copyright (Works of Art) Bill was read a third time and passed, and the Railway Company's Mortgage Transfer (Scotland) Bill went through committee. STREET RAILS. Mr. BRADY moved for a select committee to inquire into the propriety of establishing a mode of public con veyance by means of iron rails in streets and highways. Sir J. SHELLEY opposed the motion. Mr. WHALLEY supported the motion. He was ac quainted with all the circumstances connected with the street rails at Birkenhead, and never heard the slightest complaint or disapproval of the undertaking. He believed it was a great success. Mr. COWPER recommended the hon, gentleman to bring in a bill on the subject. A commit tee would occasion delay, and could not be practically of any use,' as no addi tional information could be obtained on the subject. Mr. LIDDELL expressed himself hostile to those tram ways, as being unsafe to the public. After some conversation, Lord PALMERSTON said it was very desirable to have tramways laid down, such as they had at Milan, without any monopoly, in the streets of London, but he did not think a committee appointed to devise a bill on the subject would at all assist them. The house then divided, and the numbers were.— For the motion Against it 40 Majority The other business on the paper having been disposed of, the house adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock. [ADVERTISEMENT.] Pills and medicine invariably ag gZ avate and perpetuate diseases ; their annoyance, dis appointment, and expense may be avoided by persons in indifferent health sending only their address to E. S. 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PAitBURY.—On the 25th inst., at Roupell-park, the wife of G. W. Parbury, Esq., of a son. MARRIAGES. BATCHELOR—JONES.—On the 25t1: inst., at St. John's, Paddington, Albert W. Batchelor, Esq., of 29, Con naught-terras e, Hyde-park, to Emma, second daughter of Wm. J. Jones,.Esq., M.R.C.S., of Lincoln's-ian. ECCLES—Cuirris.—On the 25th inst., at St. Peter'o: Pimlico, William H. Eccles, Esq., Rifle Brigade, of Davenham, Cheshire, to Emma Cornelia, the youngest daughter of Charles B. Curtis, E.q., of Eaton-square. DEATHS. DENDY.—On the 24th inst., at Sandfels. Reigate, Stephen Dendy, Esq., late of Leigh-place, aged 60. LEwts.:LOn the 24th inst., Win. LOKiS, Esq., of Lawn' place, Brixton, aged 80. TILLYER.—On the 24th inst., at Harrnondsworth, Jana Tillyer, Esq., aged 84. WILLIAMSON.—On the 24th inst., at Whitburn Hall, near Sunderland, Sir Hedworth Williams on , B ar t ., age d 64 • WILKINSON.—On the 24th inst., at No. 3, Grove-vil las ; Loughborough-road, Brixton, Win. Wilkinson, EQ.) a ' 34, Great Tower-street, city, aged 68. YEATMAN.—On the 22d inst., at Stock House, Sherburne, Dorset, the Rev. Harry Farr Yeatman, ag" a 75. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE SUN Office, No. 112,Strand, in the Precinct of the SAYOY, hi the county of =QOM Friday, APril A MI. . 3 ~. the y Pere win hay T; any Pr l o' SAi Com 2. Ten /don rtol retir CI WI ah : Ot Itual the meet Ap .-___ IM T Adm conta Ti zria, T' endo ing( 1 11 of va ealtu preen Newt ...._____ A Irvin Org a Into Pant rnov ( then Ever 310 P lnvei very Inosl less than anoe, Rot T~ evE ele Dal the Xv Vll ele Ita 310 Id 1 .......