The Sun. — London, England, 1825-02-04 00:00:00

another course; but that would have given offence, would probably have raised the standard of war, and that too, a war of principle, which; next to a war of religion, would be pro ductive of theeatest miseries to mankind.—(-Hear, hear!)— If we had taken gr that course, we should have acted wrong._ The only events to which he could compare our conduct, had we so acted, wou ld b e t h ose t h at too k p l ace i n th e A mer i ca n Re volution. When France took a part against England on that occasion, when, , 4 willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike," she fi rs t b egan t o tamper with the American envoys, she found th at she had constant occasion to dread, not our being conqueror s , but our being reconciled to them. The d eclaration of the French Government upon that occasioO, the reply of Gibbon, and the statement made by Governor Turner, bore testimony to the truth of these remarks. Ile did not wish to revive unpleasant recollections, but he mentioned these facts- to show what might have been the consequence of our interference in the contest between the South American Provinces and Spain. That contest was now at au end ; we had t a k en the earliest npportunity of embracing the advantages which were to be derived from its result. The benefits which Were likely to accrue from it to our domestic and foreign trade Were incalculable. In looking to these, he recollected the work s of two celebrated writers, one of them a Frenchman, who expressed their regret at the tendency which the trade of South America, had to this country. The advantages to be derived to us from our intercourse with those states were great, and would continue to increase every day. Trade and corn reerce at home and abroad were flourishing to a very wide extent. bThe spirit of enterprise 'was daily increasing—what limits miht Z a e e t to it, he would leave to the Halls and the Humboldts of c, - ..` 4 aY.. He could not say to what lengths it would. be carried ; fi e , even if pressed to a greater extent, there was still a wide eld dial open for commercial speculation. The ground for it was un exhausted, and with all that had been done, enough was eit untried to give life and energy to the enterprise of those yet r b°r e--( Hear !) —Th e N o bl e L or d, a f ter th a nking the House of the patience with Which they had attended to him, conclutl e,"peebyeitra. oving the Address, which was, as usual, an echo of the r. Alderman THOMPSON spoke to the following effect : line Mr. Speaker —I rise, Sir, to second the Address, which been moved by my Noble Friend, and in presenting my adf to the notice of the House I feel conscioes that I stand in teed of a gr ea t er portion of its indulgence t h at i t h as usua ll y een called upon to extend to any individual upon similar ?_ccasions • at the s ame t i me I mus t, in justice to the Noble acknowledge that the very able and eloquent manner to which he has illustrated the various and important topics contained in his Majesty's most gracious Speech, has relieved me from muc h of the arduous task I have u ndertaken. I shall therefore abstain from trespassing upon the indulgence of the l ouse,' bei ng most anxious to avoid the risk o f wea k en i ng t h e favourable impression which the Noble hord appears to have so successfully made upon both sides of the House ; impres sion whi c h justifies me in fondly anticipating that the Address, In a nswer to the Speech from the Throne, will meet with the l'n e a e ni e re e, , _ , probation of the House, distinguished, as that reeen tati on, by matter of the deepest interest and of proud furnishingexul a th e me of cong r atulation of a state of things s a Ine te gratifying than e ver f e ll t o the lot of the Monarch of this or Sir l?Y ot her country to com mun i ca t e t o hi s people: It cannot fail, t t i nt l e -o s eehighly satisfactory t o the country that his Majesty con fri to receive f r om F ore i gn P owers assura nces of continu e d j ee enc hbiO, and of their disposition to cultivate with his Ma- Welt these friendly relations which it is equally the interest as Ev a, a , the sincere de dre of the British Empire to maintain, to the furtherarce of tais object, it must he highly gratifying • we country to learn, that through the mediation of his Ma. ii!ttY, the differences which existed between the Emperor of Ciussia a n d the Ottom in Porte have been brought to an arnica- I n e iss ue; thet there ie no prospect of the h a rmony and friendly tercourse which subsist between this country and foreign powers being disturbed; but on the contrary, there is a well !°tltoled expectation of a continuance of that good understand tag Which h as now existed for many years, and which has chiefly cont ributed to raise this country to a state of unexampled pros perity. Whilst upon this branch of the subject, the House, I 'lope, will permit me to advert to an event which as lately ?ccurred in France, the circumstances connected wi h th - which h ave afforded stro ng ev id ence of the happy change which has taken place in the feelings and opinions of the people of that Country, and offers a substantial pledg e of permanent tranquil. lity, I allude to the demise of the King of France, .an event which was contemplated with no inconsiderable degree of anxiety by t h e people of every state in , Europe, and. which by the common course of nature, considering the age arbodily infi rm i t i es with which Louis XVIII. was bitterly afflicted, could not be very distant,.the termination of Abe event 'flll life of that M onarch was ' regarded as the- last. hope of the -advocates for Rev o l ut i on, b ut, thanks -to a'benigneProvidence, their expectations ha ve b een disappointed e we have.witnessed the sceptre of France pass into the hands of his legitimate sac l'e,,ssor - without the sli g h test di sorder, - thus satisfactorily ex lotting to the World. that the present Dynasty-of France rests. on the most solid foundation. I am led to these observations to show h ow permanent are likely to be the advantages of peace We now enjoy, and that the country is rapidly advancing to state which may be viewed as affording. an indemnity for the vast sacrifices she has made in the accomplishment of that great le/allaotte—the general peace and tranquillity of Europe. With I,e'Pect to the fallen states of Spain, the declarations of the safel y of France regarding that country, may, I think, c o re, be confided in. I believe Charles the Tenth to be sin. wre, when he-declares that his object in maintaining a military reietcaiyation of a part of Spain is not for the purpose of ten t, e r . i al aggrandizement, but with the view of, protection si "za own dominions, and in proportion as that danger sub froa, in the same ratio will lie, no doubt, withdraw his army tl Spain; and I think the House will admit the conduct hese King of France during the short time lie has occupied throne of that country offers the most satisfactory pledge ,the future. His accession to the Crown' has been distin r'sbed by a liberal policy, exemplified indeed strongly in the Which of the liberty of the press, and other institutions, e w,tilch am in unison with a progressive state of tranquillity and „!vilizetion. But, Sir, while our relations with the Continental r °viers of Europe have acquired so auspicious a character, and g r eat and u n prece d ented as have been the benefits which Great Britain has derived from this happy state of peace, his Majesty's t h' n 'aters have n o t b een i nattent i ve to t h e opportu ni ty w h en e_ey could consistently w i t h ex i st i ng c i rcumsta n ces i ncrease th e radvantages, and extend the means of commercial inter .urae, by fo r mi ng a connect i on w i th t h e new T ransat l ant i c fe Tes• Three centu r i es h ave now e l apse d s i nce t h ose St a t es ander European dominion, unfortunately not of the Pro- Le Staat part of Europe, nor of a country like Great Britain, eatableea of departing useful institutions to its Colonies, and _t a mutually beneficial intercourse : they fell under !rte doininion of the Spanish Government—a Government un- Tttunately blind both to its political and commercial interests. What ayicture of the ban e f u l effects of monopoly in trade and ttY in religion h as b een ex hibi te d i n t h e case o f Sp an i s h eb e 'Ziea• How different the prospect which is now opened to with " 41114 in—the removal of all restrictions on their trade other parts of the world—a passage of two months waft- Ato the western hemisphere the manufactures of England, : a nd thu s l ay i ng the foundation by means of an interchange e k ° l ll tuodities for sound principles of trade, advantageous whilst we receive in return supplies of produce ii;aPted -both to the luxury of the higher classes and the in . b gtr Y Of the lower. Had the Councils of Spain been guided .aY enlightened men she never would have suffered so valuable a r P°rt ian of the globe, and inhabited by twenty-one millions ve People,. tO be held in bondage disgraceful to civilized na 04tLt.'ns, she would not have suffered the contest for liberal in utious and an emancipation from colonial monopoly and have acquiesced in a change corresponding with the improve oft the tl • Atui f Ynes- Spain, however, pursued a different course, _ ortunatety an unsuccessful one; but while the struggle _west dou.btful, England prudently remained neutral. The con ciVbeing virtually ended, his Majesty's Ministers have pled decisive measures; they have taken Steps to form a 4e9Matic intercourse with those States, which will contribute give them stability and a confirmed influential station amongst .th:sTdpendent nations of the world. If there are Any among w htnn I have the honour of addressing who were of opinion meas ures a f or the recognition of those countries were too long -de t lased, if th ere are any who doubt the friendly diposition of his dMajesty'` Ministers towards those new etates, I think they will Iv re adily acknowl e d ge th at P ar li ament acte d w i se l y i n con win ti have e rt c 6 in the Government ; curred within t an n he last six whe reflectin or nine on months, the events "i oc they mThalso be of opinion that the Administration have selected the est suitable period f or th e open i ng o f the ' di p l omat ic inter , u rse with those States, a period, indeed, wh e n the Spanish trees in that country have been vanquished in almost every engagement, and Spain can no longer lay claim even to the se, eniing title of a military occupation; when a system of Go ;erninenthas been established in Colombia, Mexico, anti Bue -1?Il Ayres, exhibiting conclusive evidence of a knowledge of yhberal systems of Government, and evincing a desire to culti tte the advantages derivable from the experience of a part of the globe deeply skilled in arts, and most advanced in general civilization. Having now given a sketch (and I fear an im perfect one) of the happy state of our foreign relations gene rally, and the advantages which we are likely to acquire from an intercourse with the South American States, I must also notice the war which has unexpectedly sprung up in India ; the measures which have however been taken will, I trust, speedily lead to an ad j ustment of the differences, if not, we may sa f e ly confid e i n that tried valour of our army in that quarter, and look forward to an early and satisfactory termination of hostilities. ' The House has been apprized of his Majesty's intention toaug meat the army, a more efficient force in British India has ren dered this necessary, the reductions also which took place in the Military force of the country since the peace, regiments. having been reduced from 1,000 tetabout GOO men, has pressed incon veniently upon the •service in our distant possessions, the pro posed augmentation will afford much relief upon those stations; c ! and it is gratifying to refle6t, that from the flourishing state of the revenue, no. additional burdenaon account of such increase will be imposed upon the people. With respect . to the Slave Trade, frern the perseverance, temper, and.firnmess with which that important subject has been espoused by_his M ajesty's Go vernment, I think the House May..safely confide in their conti nued exertions towardatheeompletion of the wishes of the coun try. The state of Ireland is a topic which has been at various pe riods recommended to the attention of Parliament, and has suc cessively occupied its deliberative.' consideration. It is to be lamented, that at a moment when British capital is beginning to diffuse itself throughout, that fertile country, when the bene fits of an unrestricted commercial .intercourse between the two countries are daily exemplified, whilst measures are also in progress which cannot fail to ameliorate the condition of the lower order of Irish population, I say, it is to be lamented, that those beneficial effects are impeded in their rapid march by the obtrusive interference of misguided individuals, who by their acts are indeed exasperating animosities, diverting the attention of certain classes of his Majesty's faithful subjects from honest industry, and levying a species of tax upon a portion of the people of that country, with no other object than to enable those mistaken individuals to attempt to ovs:awe the Parliament of the United Kinirdom. Whatever difference of opinion, Sir, may exist in this House with respect to a question which is now made the protecting mantle for covering the errors and false notions of certain infatuated persons, I apprehend, that. under existing circumstances but one opinion will be entertained in this House, as to the course it will be fitting to pursue; for my felf I will take this opportunity of declaring that my opinions are decidedly adverse to further concessions, my reasons for which I shall, upon a suitable opportunity, he ready to assign. I trust the House will grant me its attention, while I advert to that part of his Majesty's Speech which relates to the improved and improving state of our Agricultural interests, of our trade, commerce, manufactures, and navigation, presenting a faithful picture which cannot fail to be most gratifying to the mind of every Englishman, to behold our country, after a war of unpre cedended length, carried on at an expellee to the people, to which history affords - no parallel; not merely recovered from the state of unavoidable exhaustion attendant upon such an .unexampled struggle, but actually raised to a degree of pros perity and glory unknown at any period. In proof whereof, I will advert to the increase of our Revenne. The branch of Excise, which afibrds the best test of internal prosperity, alone has exceeded the amount of the preceding year, by upwards of one million one hundred thousand pounds • and the Cus toms; after deducti ng t h e re p ea l o f d u ti es w i t hi n the year, to the amount of one million one hundred and fifty thousand pounds, only falls short of that of the preceding year 166,435!. consequently there is an increase in this department of our revenue nearly equal to that in the Excise, these form a just and unerring criterion of the increasing prosperity of our foreign and domestic trade; but indeed it is ,unnecessary to have refer ence to such proofs—whatever part of England you visit there are preSented ,to your view a happy, contented, and Indastri ous population; whether they are employed in the manufac. tories of. our -great staples, or in the cultivation of the soil, the scene is equally gratifying. What a pleasiug contrast dots the present state of die country form to that of the year 1820 a period within the age of the present Parliament. Yes, Sir, within die short perio'd of five years I have heard gentlemen, whose opinions have justly been entitled to great weight and authority, declare that England was a declining country—that in commerce, manufactures, and navigation, she was incapable to enter into successful competition with our foreign rivals— that the means by which she must sustain her public credit. were rapidly diminishing. I take leave, Sir, to remind the House of the gloomy predictions with which it was assailed from certain of the manufacturing and shipping interests, at a period when the important improvements in our navigation laws, warehouse system, duties, &c. were under the consideration of Parliament, predictions which had no other foundation than in the heredi tary attachment to ancient prejudices, unsuited to the present times, and unsound in principle. Anti may I not now ask, triumphantly, how have these gloomy predictions been veri fied ? Are those Members of this House, few indeed, who advocated a continuance of the restrictive policy, become con verted at last to the liberal system of trade ? Are they now prepared to co-operate in the encouragement of open coinpeti. titm e the discontinuance of monopolies and restraints upon our trade and navigation ? If not, let me entreat their attention for a short time, whilst I detail to the House the happy effects which have resulted to the country principally from the im proved state of our commercial. code., „In the first place, Sir, the official value of the exports of British manufactured goods during the year.lB24,.entling,in October laste being the latest periods . at which the public -accounts ..have.been made .up, as compared with the .preceding year 1823, exhibit an increase, of no less than four millions and a half sterling e bringing.the t aetal value of exports in 1824 to 50,758,1300/., being by-far the largest export ever made by this country. The Transit trade has also under the beneficial influence of the improved.warehousing sys. .tem e experienced a marked increase; the Act oply took effect • in July 1823, and in Oct. 1824, as compared with a like period of twelve months preceding, in 1323, .there is . an increase in value of upwards of-one million two hundred thousand pounds. The sound policy of diminishing .duties on the raw material, and acted upon by . the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, has been most folly'exeMplified in the following arti cles;, in consequence of that diminution, and the increased en couragement thereby given to the industry of the country, duties were paid upoh nearly One million and a half of pounds weight of silk more than id 1823, and on sheeps' wool upwards of five millions of pounds weight since the last Session .of Parliament. The 'consumption of colonial ruin has also in creased during the same period 165,700 gallons. With respect to our shipping interests, - they are also in a state of rapid im provement. About 200 more merchant vessels, yielding about ' 40,000 tons, have been constructed , during e last twelve months in England and Scotland alone, as compared with the preceding year. The value of shipping, according to their respective tonnages, hns risen from twenty to forty per cent. ; and ships employid in the timber trade, the owners of which it was predicted would be ruined by the alteration of the Timber Duties, and Reciprocity of Duties' Act, have. risen full 60 per cent. in value, freights have increased from 20 per cent., and there is plenty of employment. Of the increased trade of the country the port of London has had its full share • during the last year, as compared with the preceding; 2,800 more vessels entered the port from foreign and home ports, and if but due encouragement be given to an extension of the wet dock accommodation, so highly easential to the trade of the metropolis, and the places of deposit for landing, the rates and charges of the port will undergo material reduction, and thus by inviting the foreign merchant to avail himself of our capital, and the facilities offered to trade under our improved commercial code, we shall soon compete with our neighbouring continental rivals. The improved and improving state of the revenue of the country will, it is hoped, enable his Majesty's Government to proceed progressively with a dimi nution of taxation. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex chequer most decidedly enjoys the full confidence of the coun try, and I ant satisfied he will not disappoint the just expecta tions the country may have formed. The . prosperous state and improving condition of our agricultural interests form a topic of pleasing reflection : I am anxious however to state my opi nion, that such prosperity is not in any manner attributable to the existing Corn Laws, which I believe is admitted by all par ties ought to undergo alteration. I am an advocate for their re peal, and the substitution of' a protecting duty equal to a fair 1 equivalent of - the Poor Rates, Tithes, &c. paid by our far mers as compared - with other countries. I repeat, Sir, if the situation of the country in 1820 was correctly pourtrayed (the period to which I have first alluded), how pleasing is the pre sent contrast ; our trade last year has increased to an extent unprecedented, and happily England no longer cherishes visionary notions of advantage from commercial monopoly. The men who guide our councils, the merchants who invigo rate our - national industry, concur in disclaiming the doctrines of prohibition and restrictions. I will venture, without flat tery., to say of England, what the people of Rome said of one of their Emperors. with a great deal of flattery— `" Nil criturum alius, nil ostum tote fatentes." (Hear !)—The Hon. Gentleman concluded by seconding the Address. The SPEAKER then read the Address ; after which Sir. r. BROUGHAM rose and said, that as he regretted there were some, and those not the least important parts of the Speech from the Throne, to which he could not give his assent, and against which he now rose to enter his most solemn protest, yet lie could not refrain from expressing his great satisfaction that there were other portions with which he most cordially and .willingly concurred. He would certainly lay claim to the merit of having given cause for some of' - the propositions in the Speech, if he could do so without any great stretch of candour, but, in fact, he and his Bone Friends around him were called upon in some degree to tax their own modesty, and award praise to the measures alluded to in - the Speech, inasmuch as those measures had been urged by himself' and his Honourable Friends for many years on the various successive administrations of the country •-•(Hear, from the Opposition !)—fie felt dispoSed therefore to restrain his admiration of the wisdom which planned and the vigour which. executed them. Without a rrogatin g th e slightest credit to himself,. lie would say, that the measures for which credit was claimed for the Ministers, were really the work of those Honourable - Frie.nds with whorl he had uni formly and. invariably .concurred. . The principles—and let the truth be openly proclaimed to the great rejoicing of the coon try—were now anti for everiatrart end; which hampered the in dustry and impeded the energies, of the country.—(Hear!)— Those narrow minded, huckstering notions of policy which all wise men both abroad and at - home had treated with contempt— principles, which for ages long before the present Ministers came, into office, had. been the topic. of unqualified disappioe bation from all writers on questions of political economy, and ' by the followers of such writers in Parliament. Year after year had these principles been . condemned by hime and his ho nourable friends, and the - contrary doctrines which they pro mulgated had been treated as wild chimeras—the doctrines of a free trade, and the right of man to employ his own industry according to his own wisdom, nay, even according to his own caprice—these doctrines. had -been Stigmatized as chimeras, and visions, as being studied in a leaf torn from the volume of " The Rights of Alan." And yet, these doctrines which were at one time covered with reprobation and contempt, were now regarded with respect by his Majesty's Government in prac tice, and made topics of congratulation in the Address about to be carried to the foot of the Throne. Very little candour in deed was required to approve those parts of the speech which referred to a modification of the Navigation Laws. He had often spoken upon them, and -had thereby drawd upon, himself great disapprobation from a Right Honourable Gentleman op posite, a great guardian of our trade-e-(Hear ! as we under stood from Mr. Iluskisson)—now no more.—( A laugh.) —He (Mr. Brougham) did not intend to confound the Right .Hon. Gentleman in his eye (Mr. Huskisson) with the Right Ho dourable Gentleman alluded to (Mr. Rose), whom he had-in his " mind's eye" only.—(llear !)—Yet those very opinions which had formerly excited such severe animadversions were , now made .the basis of .the measures - for which Ministers claimed credit. He (Mr. Brougham) could likewise refer to the change which had taken place in the laWs relating to the silk trade. At first he was assailed by many persons with great severity, because he strenuously called for some modifi cation, and when some Hon. Friends of his had since urged the same opinions, and supported them with facts and doc trines in greater detail they were censured in the same way, and with` greater harshness. One Hon. Speaker said that he hoped such theories would never be put in practice ; another said he trusted in God that no man entertaining such fantastic dreams would ever come into office—time Ministers would never 'assist in overthrowing the corner-stone of the prosperity and trade of the country that they would not keep meddling from morning to night, and in that House from night to morning (the worst sort of meddling)—(hear)—with these topics, and that they would never genver to the Opposition side of the House to borrow any of their pernicious nostrums— (Hear !)—and:yet after all, those very Ministersehadahought it worth their while to take a leaf out of their black book—they had chosen to confide in some. of the damnable heresies of the - Freneheconomists, Adam Smith, and the deluded followers of these writers, and we now saw them (and were called upon to be grateful for it), adopting all the same principles and putting into operation the same measures. He repeated, that he thanked God such principles were now recognized—he thanked God that the country was never again to be afflicted with the true visions—time real chimeras— the hucksterlike, shopkeeping, beggerly notions of political economy, but that a more er.lerged, philosophical, and states manlike principle was recommended by the King , and that Mi nisters were compell e d t o a d o pt by th e Ki ng , t h e House, and the Country. Having found so much to concur in, he had only to hope that the Government would go on in the same course. —( H ear !)—lf they had done but little, yet that little was an earnest of a more liberal and enlightened policy. Ministers had adopted his recommendations of 1817, with regard to the navi gation an 1 silk laws. He had recommended one or . two mea... sures which were perfectly plain and easy. lie had proved to the House, that nothing was so true, as a maxim of Dean I Swift, " That in the arithmetic of the Customs two and two did not always make finer." The good seed he had sown, did not spring up and fructify immediately, for Govern ment increased the duty oa coffee anti certain kinds of tea, but none on wine. 1-le trusted,' however, .that their next measure would be to reduce the duty on witie, or at least revise the conditions of the Methuen 'l'reaty.., - and equa lize the duties on wines of different countries. If the country were enabled in this way to drink French wines cheaper, the result would be an increased consumption, and the duty, though lower in rate, would be greater in amount. —These were some of the instances he Would allude to, and he fain would hope that the reforming measures of Mini sters were not to end at the. point which they had at pre sent reached. Another circumstance alluded to in time Speech deserved the expression of his adthiration. He had seen, with high satisfaction, an approach OR the part of the Gosiernment to the sound, just, 'and liberal policy which that side of the House had so often proclauned, and which had received the unanimous approbation of the country,--he meant the recognition' of the great and Independent States of South America.--(Hear, hear, hear !)—How much of this re 'cognition .belonged to-the country—what portion of the credit belonged to the Government,—how far they were goaded anti driven into it—with what tardy speed and reluctant readiness they had performed their office,—,these were points not neces sary to be inquired into, because they had at length done it: Yet it should net be forg otten that much had been done by . a Learned Friend near him (Sir James ,Mackintosh), s—the most powerful—the most learned—the most consistent advocate for South American Independence. From the day On Which his Honourable anti Learned Friend had made that :memorable oration on the question of • the Foreig n Enlistment Bill, down to the last moment when he made a Speech scarcely less powerful on this specific subject, lie had constantly la boured to effect the great object of recognition. It would be I unjust therefore to touch upon The question of South America I without praising his lion. Friend, and ascribing much of the triumph of liberal policy over•contracted prejudices to his stre nuous, able, and persevering efforts.—(Hear !) He gave credit to Government for the recognition, and would not quarrel with them because it might_ have been urged upon them by the Country. It was a great good gained when a Government abandoned its evil courses in conformity with the unanimous wishes of the people, and he would neither object to the motive nor nicely criticise the manner. He had yet to learn whe ther that recognition had been made upon perfectly liberal and disinterested_principles, or whether it was a species .of . barter for some commercial advantage ; yet for the measure • itself he could not but express his unqualified admira tion. He trusted that the recognition would not stop short with the States of t he Continent. There was another Power which had thrown 'off the yoke of subjection to the mother country long before Mexico, Buenos Ayres, or, Peru, had thought of doing so—which had sought and struggled threhe inestimable prize of independence, and had gained at last the great object of that struggle. He meant the relent' of St: Do mingo.—(ll ear !)—A fter a contest almost unprecedented for its duration and its severity, they had succeeded in establishing it:. Government more peaceful than some, and equal to any of those on the South American continent. He (Mr. Brougham) had at first believed that it would he injudicious for England to countenance the efforts of St. Domingo. We were placed in a cruel and embarrassing situation, being ourselves such extensive slave -masters. In justice to the tranquillity of the slave-islands, he thought that no example should be sanc tioned which might influence the blacks to rebellion,- but that apprehension had long since been set at rest by the perfect free dom of St. Domingo —a freedom which it was at once our in terest, duty, and policy, to recognize. No time ought to be lost in acknowledging the independence of St. Domingo in ' the same manner, and for more than the s a me reasons ei which had produced and almost extorted the acknowledg ment of the Continental Governments. But he would ask was liberal policy . to stop short here ? Was all justice to be confined to Spanish America, perchance because it was bene ficial to English trade, or peradventure because the interests of that trade found powerful and efficient patrons in the Go vernment of the country ? _ Were we never to talk of just and liberal policy, of doing right and justice where Ireland was concerned—(Loud cheers)—where one half of the empire was - in hazard and in suffering ? True, that on this question . much difference of opinion existed, and that it was never convenient to come to any conclusive agreement. On . all other matters Ministers would make up their minds to con cur ; but on this, the most important of all, it appeared a subject of despair to expect any concurrence. The country must give up all hopes of having an undivided intelligible and . distinct opinion from an undivided intelligible and distinct Cabinet, on the most important measure for which a Minister was ever made responsible. On many other questions, as, for instance, on the silk trade, all differences were finally reconciled. It was introduced by one Minister, opposed by another in this House, therm thrown out of another place (which lie was not permitted to name), and after all, the several oppo nents consented to agree and to carry the measure. So was it with respect to Spanish America; after much conflicting dis cussion, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had the wis. dom, the manliness, and the justice, to insist upon recognition. In doing so he was backedby the people, and by that side (the Opposition) of the House, and he would have been trebly backed if he had even given up his office : rather than not effect so desirable a measure. Was not Ireland, therefore, so much nearer and dearer to us—where so many- great events were taking place—where so ninny mighty interests existed, and so many mighty dangers were accumulating to overawe or rather to stun us into wisdom. Was not Ireland to be of more im portance to us than remote and unconnected countries, and were they to say that this was the only subject on which it was inconvenient for the Government to agree ? 'file country was no longer to be told of scruples anti delicacies in higher quar ters preventing such agreement. For himself he held the doc trine in perfect abhorrence—he regarded it as the most uncoil stitutionalpth ever resorted to by Ministers, to urge the scru ples of a certain quarter as an objection to beneficial measures. It was a language' which the minions of Charles 11. would never have dared to use; it was a language that, in those bet-, ter times which preceded Charles the Second, would have ' brought a Minister to the scaffold ; it was a language the. most unconstitutional and frivolous that any Minister could employ.—(Hear, hear ! from Mr. W. Lamb.)—He (Mr. B.) should like to hear how his Hon. Friend, who challenged him • by his cheers, how lie with . all his learning and all his • expe rience, who had tried all parties, would establish his challenge. But how would the illustrious and immortal Statesman (Mr. Fox), the original introducer of this doctrine, have shrunk from and lamented such a cheer given by his pupil to the -Whig doctrine, that the king's name ought never to be mentioned in .debate, .and used, for the- purpose of' overawing the constitutional- privileges of the House.—(Hear ' hear !)-1t was the doctrine of hi s Ill u st r ion s F r i en d that his Majesty should always have the credit of any good act, and that of every odious measure, Ministers should incur the responsibi lity.—(Hear !)—What he (Mr. B.) had said was a simple co rollary from this doctrine, yet it was now the usual practice to act upon a contrary doctrine. Even in personal matters—such as military appointments—whenever any thing ungracious took place, it was usual to say • " This is not the fault of . Lord Such-a-one, or 'Mr: 'Such-a-one ; we have no choice—we are not to blerne ; we never wish •to injure a political adversary; but there are certain scruples in a certain high quarter, which we must yield to." Thus all the odium was to be cast upon' his Majesty, and Ministers were to claim credit for all the praise. When any great public measure was carried, they al ways talked of the monstrous difficulties they had overcome,. and, God only knew—what prejudices in high - quarters—just as in any case of a personal nature. So had it hitherto been with Tigard to Ireland. But thank God it would be so no longer. No such prejudices existed now in his Majesty's breast. No on - who had marked the course of that Illustrious Individual's life, anti especially his visit to Ireland, could for a moment doubt that his opinions were favourable to the most just and enlightened policy-towards that country. But it was not easy to know what his Majesty's opinions really were in this country, where he always spoke through the mouth of the Ministers -where his speech and his actions were the speech and actions of' Ministers. There was a country where the opi nions of his Majesty might be ascertained. "It was an ill wind that blew nohody goal, and . one of the benefits derived from our connection with Hanover—a connection formerly deemed so little desirable, was the hearing his Majesty speak in his own person as George IV., and not through a Minister. It gave him (Mr. - 11.) delight to tied in a recent proclamation is sued in that kingdom by his Majesty (" of which, for the sake of greater accuracy he had obtained a copy"—A laugh !)—the most sound and liberal principles. It would be well if' Minis ters would copy a leaf from that book, and by laying the example to their consciences, prevent the fate which now awaited Ireland.—( Hear !)—His Majesty expressed those en lightened sentiments, which would be echoed by every wise person in Europe:—" The general professors of the Christian faith shall enjoy a perfect equality, and all notions of a predo minant existing Church shall be entirely abolished,"—(llear !) This was the real doctrine of toleration.—( Hear !)—The really tolerant man would n Jr make use of such a word as tolera tion.—(Cheers.)—He would hold it as matter of right, and rot of favour, that every man should enjoy perfect freedom of belief, and should tbllow the dictates of his own conscience. He might be wrong in his mode of faith, but it was an insult to talk of tolerating him.—(Cheers.)—His Majesty was perfectly right, and went on in the same sound spirit to AJT—" All reli gions communities," and he (Mr. B.) would not confine this to Hanover, but extend it also to Ireland, " have the right to the unobstructed and free exercise of their own religious worship." More than this was not to be desired, and no one asked for more in the case of Ireland. It would .require, however, great powers or coumenance in any one to carry to the fbet of the throne on which sat the Monarch, who had used such language, an Address pledging the House to a doctrine directly the re verse. He would ask the friend of the Catholic question to maintain in the most bold and frank manner, the necessity of emancipation. He would leave the Catholic Association out of the question, because it was the natural, necessary and genuine fruit of withholding the Catholic Claims.—(Cheers.)— He had told the House last year that such must be the genuine fruit of their proceedings, and that if there was any harsh and' extravagant language in the petition, the blame o ug ht t o b e laid. not upon the Association, but those who made the Asso ciation what it was.—(Cheers.)—The House ought to be well assured that in the Whole history of human affairs there was no truth more certain than that the sure way to force men into the making unreasonable demands was to refuse their rea sonable requests.—( Hear, hear !)—The House had turned the reasonable into the unreasonable,. and had made the Catholics 'change the language of respectable request into that of insolent demand.. It might be urged to Ministers that as they had in several cases when backed by the Opposition in the House and the opposition in the country, succeeded in carrying questions on which difference or opinion existed at first, that they should now try the expeliment with regard to Ireland ' What was the great fear ? whence rose the great alarm ? Were they afraid lest some of their Colleagues in the Cabinet should give up their plaCes—resign their offices ? It'hat, quit the Great Seal ! (Loud Laughter.)—" Good God ! (exclaimed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman) the miracles of Prince Hohenloe are no thing to such a miracle as this !"--(Laughter.)—The wildest dream, the most chimerical fancy that ever disturbed - a poet's brains •was nothing to it. Many things he expected, many things might surprise him, but to resign such a place, to give up such an office, never entered his mind even in dreams.—(Cheers.) —Hon." Gentlemen Opposite greatly mistook the consistency of purpose—they underrated the patient assiduity—they were igno rant of the edifying fortitude with which the learned individual bore all the fatigues and difficulties of his high office, .and the distresses of the suitors in his own Court—(Laughter and cheers.) It was assuredly the wildest notion that .ever crossed a fantas tic . imagination to suppose that this distinguished person age , would abandon his place.—(Cheers. )—Let him only be tried_ (cheers)—let him only be tried. Never was there a person who exhibited an equal love for serving his country—in office.— (Cheers.)—The higher the office, and the greater the emolu .ment, the more generous his ardour to serve his country.— (Hear, hear !)—Greatly therefore had this person's attachment to his country, and his power of enduring official fatigue, been under-rated. lie never would give up the official seals until they were wrenched from his grasp. That his office was an estate for life was clear, the only doubt on the p o i nt was, whether it was not a freehold, and whether he might not ap point a successor by devise or will. - He (Mr. B.) had heard that some symptoms had appeared of appointing such a succes sor, but such successor would be excessively disappointed if he expected to get the situation- during the present incumbent's natural life.—(Cheers.)—This was the great opponent of the Catholic Claims ; and yet he ( Mr. B.) was firmly of opinion, that it' the experiment were tried on this, as it had been on other questions, the nation would never be deprived of the ines timable benefit of those great services. —(Hear !)—lt had never yet been tried, and the Catholics had waited year after year--- they had S2CII their petitions partly heard and partly rejected, until at last the Catholic Association arose with the intention of carrying by strong means their wishes through Parliament. In the Address the word used was Associations, in the plural and not without an object. He would point the attention of the House to the letter s, as sly a little letter as Belial himself ever used— —" Whose tongue dropt manna, skilled 'l'o make the worse appear the better reason, To perplex and dash maturest counsels. Yet all was false and hollow !" It was Belial who added that s ; he knew his hand-writing.— (A laugh,)—And the object was to put the Catholic Asso ciation on the same grounds with other associations, and to hold a balance between them. He solicited the House not to act on such a notion • it was one of those subtle eq u itie s so much talked of in that Court, of whose presiding Judge he had just spoken. The effect would be to put down with a strong and irresistible hand, the Catholic Association, whilst the others would receive only a gentle tap. Let not the House be deceived with any such fair outside. He was not one of those who would assent to any such proposi tion. He regretted that it had been asserted in the Address that the Association had held language inconsistent with lie Constitution. It would exasperate Ireland and disturb her tranquillity. He did not approve all the proceedings of any association, and particularly of such as were held toge ther by bonds of a mixed, political, and religious nature. Men feelingly alive to their interests and opinions, naturally stepped beyond the line of strict propriety. But after making all the allowances which justice required, he must say, that after an attentive observation of all that the Association had spoken, done and written, he could conscientiously declare his inability to trace one .word, one act, or one line, which justi fied the charges contained in the Address. Their moderation was ex:nuplary--their language, though sneered at very un worthily, by the Noble Lord, was not violent—and their elo quence (which it would be more prudent for the Noble Lord to endeavour to imitate than to pronounce a sarcasm against, or rather endeavour to pronounce a sarcasm) was of a high order. The Noble Lord had said that he did not feel disposed to treat with contempt the Catholics of Ireland. " lie," (exclaimed the Learned Member) "he treat with contempt six millions of his Majesty's subjects !" This would go abroad to Ireland where the Noble Urrd would now for the first time be heard of. The Learned Gentleman said he should feel greater surprise if any man should feel disposed to treat's° large a body of the people with contempt. He was sorry to hear such an expression from the Noble Lord, whose general good sense he had great reason to expect, but no man, however contemptuous his disposition, not even Signor Poeo Curante himself, could disdain the Ca. tholic Association. It contained nearly all the leading men of Ireland, and all the Catholics gave it their unqualified support. It was the virtual representative of the Catholic population of that country.. Some there were who perhaps did not .agree in all it had said and done; such persons he had the honour to know;'. who thought the orators at the Association had occasionally gone a little too far. His Learned and Right Hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Plunkett) sitting over his breakfast table, had thought so, and 'appealed to 23 men who thought differently.— ( Hear!)-.- He knew and felt the difficulties of the Right Hon. Gentleman's situation—he knew his honest zeal, his in estimable seryices. If any one in Great Britain had done much to ruis*e t;ie Catholics of Ireland, it was (with the exception of heir great and distinguished advocate Mr. Grattan) espe dell); the Right Hon. Gentleman. He it was who raised them to .the plenitude of power and influence they now possessed, and produced the Catholic AssociatiOn, or, at least; armed its most powerful weapon—his marvellous powers of eloquence - and reasoning. He was acquainted with many persons who, though they disapproved of many parts of the Association's proCeedings, would nevertheless cling to it, and oppose every attack - against it by Act of Parliament, as being an attack against the People of Ireland. To legislate on such a subject was in. his Opinion morally impossible. He did not know how the line could be d rawn b e t ween it and many other - publi c bo dies who raised sub s c r ipti ons i n a s imilar way. There were th e Bible SOcieties, much more extensively ramified, and having a revenue of upwards of one hundred thousand pounds per annum, with branches throughout the country, enlisting under their banners all religious sects, all the Dignitaries of the Church, having. at their head a Peer of the Realm, and one of- their most active members, a Noble Lord with whom he often had the pleasure of acting—he meant the Earl of Liverpool — (A Laugh)—and another Noble Person, whose concurrence he might also hereafter expect on quesnons of trade (Lord Bex ley), was at the head of 'a similar institution, whose objects were more religious and quite as political as those of the Ca tholic. Association. There was still another Association which ought to be put down far more than the Cathelicnassociation, to which the Duke of 'Wellington was a subscriber, the Bridge street Association—(Hear; hear !)—whose purpose was not to put an end to long standing grievances, but to prosecute all writers against such grievances. Ile mentioned these -cas a to show the extreme difficulty of legislating on such a question. Either we must have complete emancipation, a consummation not utterly to be despaired of, or some measures to gratify the absurd fears and fancies of prejudiced persons. If to address the House, for froin the first step to the last he would take his stand—(Hear !) —make every opposition to a measure bot tomed on -injustice, and certain to lead to a separation of the kingdoms.—( Loud Cheera!)—He believed that the Catholic Association had been of vast service in securing the peace of Ireland. (Hean . hear !) That country- was far.. more tranquil now; when the people through the Associa tion had some reliance on the law, than foemerly when they complained without redreas. , They had passed from a state of incivilization to the luxury of being protected by the law. This, cloak it as they might, varnish it as they woald, was the work of the Catholic Association.—(Heard)—The Dish had formerly confided in that House—they had looked to that HotiSe for protection, but finding that all their friends, as soon as they got into office, left therti in the lurch—finding - that .Parlia ment had neglected them, they drew the conclusion that they had nothing to trust to Parliarn2nt, exc_Tt under other circumstances, where their supporters had not become Mini sters, or where there was some fear of invasion or of foreign war. This was one of the causes which gave birth to the Ca tholic Association ; this, too, Was the reason why Parliament could not look to the AssOciatiop' without a feeling of dread, and whilst they feared they hated,. Swift slid-that nothing was more common than for,men re make themselves ridiculous, and then to be angry bectinSe they were laughed at. Just so in Government, nothing so unreasonable and yet more common than for bad rulers to create misery amongst the people, and then by bad measures to drive the peopla to violence. Par liament made the Irish rebels, and then covered them with blame and vituperation for being so. At present there was not even any talk of rebellion, and there was but , one measure which could bring rebellion to these shores, and this-was the suf fering more than the twelfth hour to pass away ; after having planted a dangerous root, and seen it grow tip to maturity, spreading its scions over the empire, and now endeavouring to put it down by Act of Parliament. This was gross injustice, and even madness. If they were determined to put it down, it might be down in forty-eight hours. It- was their own crea tion, and it was their own fault that they were haunted by it ; but if the Catholic reivion 'were carried, and justice were equally administered in Ireland, that moment it would .cease to exist. , That the Government might be wise and e speedy in the adoption of its measures, preferring . the gentle -tO the violent, was his earnest prayer, and he wished he couldadd, his assured hope. Ile could not vote for the Address. Many Gentlemen were absent who would have joined in protesting against such a positive opinion on this subject as it contained, and this was the reason why he should not take the sense of the House. He did- not wish that the Catholics of Ireland should infer from a scanty number of opponents that the num her of their friends was equally scanty. There was, however, no time to be lost in taking the necessary steps on this ques tion, which so deeply concerned the connexion and tranquillity of the empire.(Hear, hear !) Lord L. GOWER rose - to explain.' Be strongly disclaimed any intention of sarcasm or disrespect in the obserVations he had made with reference to the Catholic Ass 'elation, Mr. BROUGHAM said, he was not the only person who took the same view he did of what fell from the Noble - Lord. He rejoiced that he afforded him an opportunityof explanation; as 'it would tend to preserve among the Roman Catholics what still remained among them of respect for that Mr. W. LAMB said, he would not- have intruded himself 'so soon upon the House were it not., fbr the observation that had been so pointedly directed against him by the Ho notirable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brouf, , ltam). .The cheer to which .the Honourible •and Learned Gentleman al luded had been drawn froth 'hint for no other 'reason but this, that he thought his language .somewhat" too exagge rated in speaking of the effect- that 'would' have followed, in the times-preceding Charles 11. if arkf pefso4 shinad dare to talk of scruples in a high quarter. This' hunnought tended to weaken his argument, and thatavas the onlftnotiye for expressing what he felt in the usual manner by a cneer. The Hon; and Learned Gentleman was pleased to nibsnrve, that he tried, all parties and opinions. He was not away: o r .what-facts this, as sertion was founded.—(Hear!)—No Man had more respect than himself for the opinions of the lion: and. Learned'Oentleman ; and he should be sorry if any thing occurred to •produce. To diffe rence between them. In most parts of the Address he con curred. Not thinking, however, that the t ite on the country was ever so desperate as some seemed to think, h.e saweno reason for so much exultation as the Address contained.- seemed to him, therefore, to sound sonic wh Aike exaggeration. It was said that the Catholii Asisociation- adopted proceed ings inconsistent with the spirit - of ;did Constitution. Of this he should expect proofs`; Mid*, under • the • idea :that they would be brought before the House, he should sup port that) part of- the Address. It was true - them were other Associations that had sortie analogy: to this,.. ; Oleo/ were not so much connected with politieirsathjects desi. cable co doubt that men should have it in their power.feiassem. ble and express their Opinions ; but if under pretenceof!'delibe rating on their own particular grievances these discussions. took' in almost every question affecting the interests of the country, such an Association became a fit subject for legislative. provi sion. The subscriptions might be legal and proper, but it' Catholic Priests, who assumed the powe rs of a b so l ut i on an d the remission of sins, interested themselves in the collection: of it, it became, in his mind, a cause f or some alarm.- If, the influence they necessarily acquired from the discharge of their spiritual functions.were brought into play on-politicalatiatters, it then required the deepest consideration. Whatever might be the conduct of the Association, or whatever its advocates Might advance in its favour, his opinion of it should remain un, changed. • Mr. Secretary CANNING then rose. He observed - that: it was not his intention to follow the Hon. and Learned Gentle man opposite through many of the topics whicn he had opened up in his speech, as several of these would form themes of.dis.. cussion on a future occasion. The Hon. Gentleman, passing over the consideration of various topics in the Speech, had dwelt IT= one at great length ; that part of it, namely, whicliilluded to the Catholic Association ; and had in no very gracious away drawn observations froth another part which chiefly concerned himself. With respect to the first part, the Hon.Gentleman.had stated some opipions which he (Mr. Canning) had always held, and was ever prepared to support when they were brotight for s ward; but in his view, so fur front that Association•identifying itself with the Catholics of Ireland, he considered it as a scheme, a device, and an invention, fbr sowing hatred in the minds- of th e Irish. - lie believed that the veriest enemy to peace, -if he had sat down and raised in this country a scheme for exasperating the spirit of the people, , conld not have hit on raeaneeinore cer. tarn of accomplishing this object than the invention and con duct of the Catholic Association.—(H ear, hear l)neThe.firat argument lit' the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, which lie had thought proper to pursue at great length, was, that-if no step had been taken by the Government with respect to the Asso, ciation, the mischief might have died away. Now thnnwas the line of conduct which he- (Mr. Canning) had -taken- dur ing the last Session of Parliament. Had the Hew Gentle , man forgotten how he was goaded to put it down,- arui:whsn so goaded, had he forgotten th e p ro b a bility then felt in the inarrity of the House, th a t th e A ssoc i a ti on would - di eof, the.y of itself ; and had he for g ott en , too , th a t in this v i ew -. affair, no call was to be m a d e to Parliament until the result of the experiment was kno wn ? B u t if thiswere his argument re object the of the Honourable Gentl ema n, he had : c singularly enough. It was his business F e n to ditoinish.the power of the Association, to shew that it n • ss a harmless meet,: ing of individuals, of the represent the sentiments Catholics of' speech and even beyond his Own invention.—(Hear, hear!) —ale Berated almost beyond exaggeration, Id us now that the Catholic the peace and the tranquillity which the country now enj o y ed of to-night he had exag.. Ireland w ; h b o t t i l t it i t n n i ot i Association was the source or _ Hear hear !) ;—and n ihis • and zeal to obtain credit for his predictions r ecommendations in former times, be had forg ott Wellesley 's the existence of Lo r d Wellesle ' s Administration ; he had forgotten the talents and the merits' which belonged to that eminent man ; and w ou ld h ave us ' to. believe that the Administration did not distribute even-handed justice between Catholic and Protestant ; and that the favour of the Government and the sunshine of the favour of the Crown