The Sun. — London, England, 1834-05-06 00:00:00

i should be made till an appeal had been made to the people. It would be in the recollection of the noble lord, that after the Civil List had been disposcl of, he had moved for a supply of 200,0001. to meet current expenses—one of the items of which was for those pensions accruing from the time his late Majesty died to the date of the vote. On that occasion many hon. members, among whom was the member for Middlesex, entered their protest against such a vote, and the only way in which Ministers c a rried the measure was by assuring the house that in giving their consent to that " temporary grant," they were noway committed to a subsequent sanctioning of the list. He denied that the pension list had ever been in vestigated ; if there had been an inquiry made with a view to revision it would not have remained as it did, in unimpaired hideousness ; not one name had been struck off ; not a farthing of the amount lessened. Were the house, then, to allow themselves still to be bul lied into silence? His object was to come at a full under standing of the terms, and condition of each grant ; and he would seriously put it to the administration, that distilla tion of Whigism (A laugh), whether they were really de termined to risk what character they had in defending a Pension list which had called forth an expression of dis gust and abhorrence from every man who read it? t . ," Hear, hear.) Would the reform ministry sacrifice the *character they had earned, and shadow the benefits they had conferred on the people by standing forth as the champions of a set of pensioners, about whom the only difficulty was to say whose claims were the most suspi cious or unfounded in justice ? (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Oxford had said that the service of any com mittee appointed to investigate this subject would be so disgusted that a man of honour would shrink from under taking it. ( Hear, hear.) This was no great compli ment to the names on the list, some of them the fairest and highest names in the country. (Hear, hear.) The diffi culties which had been objected to his former motion Wein obviated in the present one. The advisers of the crown were responsible for the pensions ; they 'could surely not refuse to have those pensions in vattigated, for they could have no personal motives to pre vent them ; and it would be a great satisfaction to the people and the house to see that ministers were not in this matter talon'too much responsibility on themselves. (Hear, and a lau g h.) Besides this, he was pretty sure that not above 10 per cent. of the amount of the pensions would bear scrutiny, and thus, if justice were done, the rest of the money would become a fund at the disposal of Ministers. Perhaps, however, they would not like to seem eager after having this at their disposal, for they had been so often taunted with panting after every possible place and pension fef themselves and their friends, that possibly they would bl:ject to subjecting themselves to any additional reflec t-it:nt.s. (Hear, hear.) If they would undertake it, how- Veer, the chances were that out of 144,0001., 120,000/. Might very justly be made to revert to Government. Any person who ran his eye over the list must be struck with the obnoxious description of most of the pensions : it would be injudicious in him to refer to any one particular name in the list, as he might thereby run the very great chance of a division of opinions in the house, for it would be im possible to name any individual out of the 1,300 in the list, in whose favour some hon. member or other would not start up declaring that " however disgraceful the list in the case of every other pensioner, yet in the instance of the individual alluded to in so unhandsome a manner (A laugh), if any man ever deserved a signal reward at the hands of his country, that was the man" (A laugh), and Aso on through the whole list : collectively, all would be protested against--individually, all would be defended : the affecting tale of the Miss Gossetts would be adopted as the model by the defenders of each lady and gen tleman pensioner. (Hear, and a laugh.) But it might be necessary to mention a few of the " leading particulars." They were about to enter deeply into the poor laws sys tem ; they were about to bring in a bill, and were deter mined to maintain its soundest details ; yet while they de clared that, after a given day, no person who had been a recipient of parish bounty should continue to receive it un less he could make out that he was deserving, how could they justify to themselves the preservation of the pension list ? (Cheers.) The pauper might have received the parish money for a long time, he might almost have run a race with the venerable in this list (Laughter) ; yet he was to be told that he no longer had any right to considera tion, he was to be informed that he had no vested rights. It was only your venerable dowagers, your flitting shadows of fashion—the fair and seductive forms (Hear, and laughter), who presented themselves on this list, and whose only recommendation was that they were of retired habits and unknown—it was only for such as these that they had any sympathy. ( Vehemeut cries of " No, no," and cheer ing.) Why, it was a disgrace to the country, and must bring down on the parties themselves the deepest condem nation, if any individual was found on this list who had a relation who, with wealth at his command, nevertheless suffered his relative to remain thus a burden on the coun try. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") We had laws by which we could compel the son, if he should so far forget the ever lasting obligations of his nature, to support his father, and even his grandfather. We coult; bring such an individual by summons before the quarter sessions, where he (Mr. D. W. Harvey) knew orders were often made for children and grandchildren, out of their small earnings, to sup port those who had supported them in the hour of their helplessness. Why should not the same principle be put in force against the parties on this list ? (Cheers.) He was the last man who would deny that there might be some on the list who might have been fair objects of Royal bounty, having been recommended by their indigence as well as their worth ; but who would deny that there were others also, who owed their being there tothe perseverance of their applications, or to the accident of their relation ship or connection ? And in this respect the present mo tion had an advantage over the motion he originally made on the subject, which was for the appointment of a com mittee. The course he now proposed would be adopted by the Crown acting under the advice of the present admi nistration, and would come, therefore, with more force than would the strongest resolution of a committee of the house. He had been looking at the list, and had been picking up such information as he could get respecting it, in order that he might submit it to their consideration. He could assure the house that this motion had been no sine cure to him, either as regarded the examination he had made of the dull speeches that had been delivered on the subject, or as respected his reading and answering the al most boundless communications with which he had been favoured. (A laugh.) In one he was told that, "In going through the list he would find many favoured plu ralists. Many were in the public service, and, in addition to their pensions, were receiving emoluments on that ac count. There were others whose pensions ought surely to have ceased when they became otherwise provided for, as in the case of their obtaining fortunes by birth or by mar riage." Such were the remarks that accompanied one communication. The hon. member then read the follow ing statement and list : " The following list will enumerate some of the favoured enjoying pensions, who are pluralists by holding situations under Government. It will designate many who have never performed any public services, and consequently ob tained their emoluments from court or ministerial patron age. It will also point ont those whose pensions should have ceased when otherwise provided for by marriage or inheritance. The noblesse, whose poverty has arisen from their forefathers' extravagance, may claim assistance from their own order, but can have no right to be quartered on the revenues of the country. • • " Lord Aylmer's pension is 356/. per annum. He is Captain-General of Canada (some thousands a year), and Colonel of the 18th Foot." Now, he asked whether that was true? He wished for an answer, " aye" or " no." A word from his Majesty would stop this pension. " Lord Aston has good church preferment, besides a good private fortune." - Was that true? His lordship's pension was very small ; but then it was the more con temptible in him to receive it. (Hear, hear.) Nothing, however, was too small for the pensioners to grasp at. Some persons in the list received in driblets five or six pensions of 50/. Such persons were always at the elbow of the Minister or the Monarch, and their importunities were not unfrequently bought off by a cension. Lord Aston con descended to receive 97/. out of the labour of the working classes. ( Hear, hear.) " Lord Auckland is Master of the Mint, President of the Board of Trade, and Commissioner of Greenwich Hospital ; his pension is 3001. per annum, which he fore goes whilst holding his present offices." Lord Auckland did not receive his pension whilst he was in office, and he wished that principle to be applied to all pension-receivers. If they derived a good income from other sources they ought not to receive their pensions. He would not then stop to ask what was done with the amount of Lord Auckland's pension whilst it was in abeyance, but he did not recollect that any reduction was made from the last grant on that account. (Hear, and a laugh. ) " Sir John de Blaquiere enjoys a pension of 1,0721., and again as Baron of 893 1 . 135." This was a monstrous case. Sir John received his first pension in 1794, and baying served an apprenticeship of eight years, he was raised to the peerage and received 8931. 13s. a year more. ( Hear, hear.) Lord Bloomfield is colonel of a battalion of artillery, and has 936/. 16s. per annum." No doubt a whole host of members would rise in their places to eulogise this noble lord, and to express their regret that he had not received some more solemn and substantial mark of his country's approbation. -" Charles Oldfield Bowles, and Elizabeth his wife, have a pension of 1921. He was a private secretary to Mr. Goulburn for a short time. (Hear, hear.) He is colonel of the Oxford Militia, from possessing a large property in the county." He supposed that right hon. member for the university of Cambridge would by and by favour the house with a biographical sketch of this happy couple. (A laugh. ) It would be observed, that he mentioned the names of no persons who were not likely to have some friends in the house to speak in their behalf. " Sir Henry Browne has 2001. per annum, and 2001. more as Thomas Henry Browne. lie is on half-pay of the 23d Foot. His rewarded services consisted in having been the aide-de-camp to the present Lord Londonderry (Hear, and a laugh) when ambassador at Vienna, and he was sent to Milan, on the delicate mission of gaining in formation relative to the conduct of Queen Caroline." (Hear, hear.) He never before knew the value of a title but it was clear that the being made a " Sir" was word; 2001. a year to Mr. Brown. He was desired to refer any ~` ~v~ person who wished to know how well this gentleman hal earned his pension to the trial of the late Queen. " The Earl of Cavan has a regiment, and is a Governor besides. He has 2261. a year. " The Baroness Cathcart, wife of Lord Cathcart (he is Colonel of the `2d Regiment of Life Guards, 1,8001. per annum ; and a retiring pension, from having been Am bassador and Governor of Hull), enjoys a pension. " Dowager Lady Clare has 7801., the widow of the rich Ex-Chancellor. " The Marchioness of Carmarthen, 7001. Her husband is heir to the Dukedom of Leeds. _ " Marianna Cockburn, sister to Viscount Hereford, 115/. 19s. 6d. ; is the wife of Sir James Cockburn, who has 1,000/. per annum, as Inspector of the Marines. She and her four sisters had pensions granted of 115/. 19s. 6d., when young, but it never was contemplated that on their marriage these pensions should continue. This was a case which came within the principle he had laid down, that pensions should be superseded on the success of the re ceivers of them in other departments. ( A laugh.) " Juliana Maria Eyre, is another sister, a widow, with a good jointure of 600/. a year. " Georgiana Maria Gwynne, another sister : " Charlotte Wellington, another sister ; and " Catherine Eliza Watkins, the fifth married sister, lately married (from her widowhood) to R. Stretton, Esq., High Sheriff this year for Breconshire ; her former husband left her 2,0001. a-year jointure. Lord Elphinstone has 138/. ; also 276/. 10s., and again 1381. " Eliza Makenzie and Ruth Elphinstone, 2761. 10s. •' The Eden family have 407/. per annum. " Mary Gwynne, the widow of General Gwynne, has a pension ; she besides receives 400/. pension. " The Earl of Howe is too wealthy a nobleman to re ceive 276/. per annum. This is too bad.' " Viscount Hereford receives 115/. 195. 6d., which was granted to him at the same time similar annuities were granted to his five sisters. What makes this case most glaring► is, that he inherits also his father's pension of 467/. He has two seats in Wales, Fregoyd and Ancribba; and lately bought of the crown a manor adjoining the town of Hay, thereby extending his own grouse manors. " Thomas Knox Holmes (Hear, hear), 500/." This was the only case in which the paper he was reading from stated the consideration for which the pension was granted. It was stated to be given to Mr. Holmes, as the son of the whipper-in of the late Administration (A laugh) ; and he (Mr. Harvey) could honestly say, that a more faithful whipper-in Government never had. (A laugh. ) " Sir Herbert Taylor is the Colonel of the 85th Regi ment, notwithstanding he has 930/. pension. " Sir William Johnstone 714/. per annum : a rich baronet. " Lieutenant-General Knollis, 4001. per annum : he re ceives besides a Lieutenant-General's pay, and is also Go vernor of Limerick." (A member on the Treasury Bench said, "He is dead.") " That," rejoined Mr. Harvey, " is the best thing that can be said of him." (A laugh. ) " The Rev. William Kuper, 4001. 155.: a Chaplain to the German Chapel. " Dame Fanny Lushington, 3501. per annum, and the Hon. Ann Lushington, 624/. per annum, and her four children. A governorship in India ought to satisfy the Lushington family, who have enjoyed good situations for so many years. George Leigh, and Mary his wife, 700/. ; he was a personal friend of the late King, and commanded the 10th Light Dragoons. This is a pension extraordinaire. " The Earl of Minto, an ambassador, 9241. " Lady Louisa Murray." Of this lady he would say nothing, because her husband had been successful in ano ther place. (Cheers and laughter.) " Lord Montford, 467/. ; ditto, 155 i. " Lord Strangford condescended to take a pension of 85/. (Hear, hear.) He has the retiring pension of an ambassador, 2,000/. per annum ; Maria Dowager Strang ford has a pension of 233/. ; ditto, 266/. "' Lady Ann Cullinc , Smith, 6001., sister to the Duke of Wellington ; her husband a rich man. • " Sir Simeon Stuart, 200/. ; a rich baronet, who never performed any public service. " Lieutenant-Colonel Meyrick Shaw, 500/. ; ditto, 499/. He was private secretary to the Marquis Wellesley in India, and also in Ireland. One pension would be adequate. He is now employed again. " The Earl of Tyrconnel, 600/. ; ditto, 445/. He mar ried Miss Crow, of Kiplin Park, Yorkshire, a very rich heiress. (Hear. ) " Thomas Lord Walsingham, a dignitary of Winchester Cathedral ; he has 636/. per annum. " Lady Matilda Wynyard, 467/. ; the wife of General Wynyrd. " S a ir F. Watson, 936/. " Emily Marchioness of Westmeath, sister of the Mar quis of Salisbury, and wife of the. Marquis of Westmeath ; cannot expect to be supported by the public. She has 386/. per annum. " The Rev. Alexander Sterkey, the Swiss Minister, 400/. 155." Now he was quite aware that be should find he, in giving these instances, had let loose a whole pack of eulogists. If comments in justification were made on each particular case, they would probably have a debate as long as was that celebrated one which had so recently closed. But it would do good. Such, then, was the list, in the protection of which, in all its integrity—in defence of which, as of something inscrutable, the Government, they were told, was prepared to stake its very existence. Even these pensions—even this provision for those who had no claim to it, Government was determined to perpetuate, though, by so doing, it perpetuated its own notoriety. He should be sorry, he must confess, were the threat ened consequences to arrive; but he thought he might be excused in saying, he hoped that, on this occasion, the cry would be found to have lost much of its echo. It had been repeated so often—this, he be lieved, was the fourth time—that he felt himself warranted in hazarding such a suggestion. There was the Malt Bill. The house would recollect what took place with reference to that. Then, when this matter was under discussion before, the noble lord told them that, if they did not sanc tion his views as regarded the civil list, he should consider that they would pass a direct censure on his Majesty's Go vernment. In short, it always happened, when the house appeared to be resolved to establish a character for eco nomy, that the noble lord addressed them something to this effect :—" If you are determined to run before us, instead of after us—if you are not prepared to adopt our measures—we will throw the whole country into a di lemma. We combine all the elements out of which an administration ean be formed—we, the saviours of the country." (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Why, was there ever before presented anything so ridiculous? If all who were in the government—if all who ever had been, or would be in the government, or who thought they ought to be—if all in that house were swept away, this great country had in it a sufficient number of master-minds to throw up a power that would proclaim their in significance. He hoped and believed that this parlia ment was not the best the country was to have. (Hear. ) This was chosen as a beginning ; in future parliaments they would see a great improvement. As was said by the hon. member for Carlisle the other night, they were but " the awkward squad of reform." It was composed of hon. gentlemen who were chosen, rather because they were known as having been the agitators of provinces—" at least (said Mr.llarvey) many of us who are the new mem bers were" (A laugh), than for any knowledge that we were believed to be possessed of in the science of govern ment, or in those great principles of society on which de pended the greatness and happiness of nations. We had been mixed up (continued the hon. and learned gentle man) with parish matters and business of mere local im portance, and we thought ourselves, and were thought statesmen ; but, no doubt, in after times the people will select philosophers of deep penetration, who will act on the principles laid down by Locke in his Essay on Go vernment, as " intelligible utility." Those who stood on this ground would be deemed the fit men ; " utility" would be the test, whatever else were thrown aside, whe ther they found it in courts, peers, or parliaments. Go vernment might tell them its day was come, but he would bid them take comfort. As Charles 11. was on one occasion taking his walk up Constitution-hill, he was crossed by James of York, who was in his carriage. James, addressing Charles, asked him if he thought it was prudent to walk abroad in those turbulent times ? Charles replied, " Never fear ; there is no danger of my life, so long as the people know who will be my successor." (Great laughter, and cheers.) The present government, with reference to the late go vernment, appeared to act according to the scriptural instruction, " If your enemy smite you, turn the other cheek." They appeared to say—Think as meanly as you like of us, we will support 'you; we will never be un grateful ; we will support the prerogative, we have uni formly maintained that doctrine ; we will support the pension list. The civil list having been voted, they were told that they must not touch that : but at the expiration of the reign they might examine it ; that was comfort for them. He had occupied much more of the time of the house than he intended ; whether he had succeeded in making the object of his motion intelligible, it was not for him to determine. He could not understand how any hon. member who had supported his former motion could opp9se the present ; nor, till the division came and informed him to the contrary, would he believe it possible for any honourable gentleman to pursue such a course. On the other hand, he could conceive that many who had opposed the former motion would be found countenancing this. With regard to the former mo tion, he was asked, " would he issue the Speake7's war rant to take people before a committee of that description; would he drag before that committee all that was venera ble in years, all that was attractive in beauty? Would he summon delicate shadowy forms, and drive them to the ne cessity of asking for No. 13, to undergo an inquiry as searching and indecent as any that could be suggested by minds indecent enough to conceive such a proposition ?" And these objections were obviated by the present motion, for an address to his Majesty. He was told that no doubt a word from the King would be sufficient to induce the parties to renounce their claim, more particularly as his Majesty would be acting under the advice of the govern ment. Thus the consequence could hardly fail to he this —ministers would soon find that they had an available fund. This was the sort of language used to him with re spect to his former motion, which received the support of 118. He hoped, then, that the motion he now mad' would be much more successful. They should recollect that, as long as they permitted any person unworthy of such distinction to be on the pension list, they were exclu ding some person whose merit could not, perhaps, be surpassed—who could not be enriched in any other way (Hear, hear, hear) who possibly had car ried our trophies of victory to the extreme parts of the earth—who might have sustained the imperishable glory of our flag on the sea—or who had explored the profound depths of science, and enlarged the boundary of human happiness. (Cheers.) There were some men unknown to fortune, and known only to fame, who had given up to their country all that was dear to them—the reaping the entire benefit of their exertions. There were such men as those who were not to be seen in Courts. There was something so ennobling in real worth, that commonly the possessors of it sought no sort of return. They should draw these men forth, and throw around them the comfort they might and ought to obtain from the pension fund. He could mention many now in misery whose greatness might be read in the papers, that would give an immorta lity to their names. These eminent and deserving indivi duals would be established in comfort, and free to exercise their best energies, if they had bestowed on them but one tenth part of the wealth that was unworthily bestowed elsewhere. He had been told that a Divan had been held very lately in Downing-street, partaking of a political character, at which, as Wyndham had said, " the people had nothing to do with the laws but to obey them ;" it had been insinuated that members had no thing to do with their constituents but to despise them. ( Cries of " No.") He had heard gentlemen were told that they were here a deliberative assembly, not as delegates (Cries of " Hear, hear,"), and had a duty to perform supe rior to the instructions of their constituents. Was there a man who owed his seat in that house to the expression of the popular sentiment who had not, in his address, written, or oral, or both, declared his opposition to the pension list? (Cheering.) All those gentlemen were solemnly pledged 'to those who, in their confidence, had returned them to this house to demand a rigid investigation into this list; it was their first duty. They had been promised that the pension list should be brought under something like a ge neral-rule--that the prerogative of the Crown was to be something curtailed—to secure that pensions should be be stowed only as a reward for eminent services. The noble lord who, in bringing forward his, celebrated scheme for the civil list, had engaged that the pensions should be open to inquiry, might have gone still further ; he might have declared that it was the duty of the representatives of the people to see that not a pension was bestowed for personal or political prostitution. He should be much mortified if his motion were defeated. Nor would his mortification arise from the mere ihct of his being its advocate, but from his sense that he, in common with other hon. gentlemen, had a solemn pledge to redeem. He had no factious feel ing to indulge. No man in this house, looking to his means, had sacrificed more than he had in past times; and he said now that whatever personal feeling he had to some members of the Government, no man was more determined or disposed to give them his strenuous support in every measure that, in his conscience, he believed calculated to advance the happiness of his country. He had uttered those sentiments when the present Ministers were in oppo sition ; they were not, therefore, taken up for the occasion. Other men might forfeit their pledges, he would adhere to his own, and he was mistaken if they would not prevail. If any other mode could be suggested—if any new reading could be given to his motion that would render it more ac ceptable, he was not so wedded to it that he would consent to no substitution. All he sought, all he asked, in the name of the people of this country, was, that the house would sympathise with their wants—that it would not trifle with their means. (Great cheering.) The hon. gentle man concluded with his motion, which was to the effect stated above. Lord ALTHORP had opposed the former motion of the hon. and learned gentleman, and he had great objections to the present one. (Cheers.) It appeared to him that the proposition of the hon. and learned gentleman was one which it was utterly impossible that any gentleman could accede to. The proposition was to call on this house to address his Majesty to take away those pensions which his Majesty had confirmed. They were asked to call on the King to do that which no man of gentlemanlike feeling would consent to do, viz., to deprive persons of the pensions which he himself had bestowed. The hon. and learned gentleman had alluded to a speech which he (Lord Althorp) delivered on a former occasion in relation to this subject. He said then what he was ready to maintain now, which was, that he did think that the minister who recommended a pension was responsible for such recommendation, and he thought it was perfectly justifiable to call for the list, in 1 case any improper grant had been made. The hon. and learned gentleman went on - to say, that when he (Lord A.) proposed the civil list, he at that time stated that the pen sion list should be open to inquiry ; certainly he did so ; but that was only till the list was finally settled. He, at the period referred to, had to ask of the house a vote on credit ; it was then necessary for the house to make ad ,,ances from quarter to quarter. Ultimately, however, they did go into the questicn; and the house decided that the pensions should be charged on the consolidated fund. When they did so, it never entered into his head that this pension list would be opened again. He did feel that persons on the pension list had a right established by custom to be continued on it ; and the present govern ment, taking this view, had, when they came into office, recommended that they should be. If the house agreed to the motion, if they agreed to address his Majesty to take the pensions away, they would agree to what was un just. The hon. and learned gentleman seemed to expect hon. gentlemen to get up to defend each individual grant ; but he (Lord Althorp) did not intend to do any such thing. He did not hold himself responsible for the acts of former governments. (Cheers.) The first minister of the crown was, he admitted, responsible for the pensions having been retained ; but he , had acted in concurrence with what had been the practice at the commencement of every reign since the revolution. King William continued the pensions granted by James 11. The present motion, then, of the hon. and learned gentleman he considered more objectionable than his proposition for an inquiry be fore a committee of the house. The hon. and learned gen tleman had alluded to an expression made use of by the Right Hon. Secretary of the Treasury, who had spoken of the desired inquiry as a " disgusting examination." Hi s right hon. friend did not allude to the cases to be investi gated, but to the feeling which he supposed everyone would entertain, who of necessity might be engaged in the exa mination. He (Lord Althorp) thought it could not fail to be a " disgusting inquiry" to any gentleman who took a part in it. (Hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman had argued this as a popular topic. He (Lord Althorp) admit ted that it was so. (Hear.) He was quite aware that per sons held pensions who had other public employment, and he was ready to admit that when persons had large pro perty, " at least (said his lordship, breaking off suddenly), I am sure that if I were in that situation, I would not take the pension." (Great cheering for a considerable time.) He admitted that this was a topic which influenced considerably popular feeling ; but this was quite beside the question as to the propriety of their taking away that from men to which in their judgment they had a right, the law having established that right. This did not appear to him to be a question requiring any length of argument. It was simply this—would they deprive those who had a legal right to the pensions of that right by a vote of this house? and if they would do that, would they employ, as a medium of doing it, the King who had conferred the grants ? (Cheering.) The question lay in a narrow compass, and it was quite impossible for him to sanction such a proposi tion. (Cheers. ) Mr. STRUT T denied that the political parliament to which the hon. and learned gentleman had alluded, had sat in Downing-street. He (Mr. Strutt) admitted that it was necessary for the honour of the house, and for the satisfaction of the country, that a full inquiry should take place into the pension list. (Cheers.) When it was re collected that the first minister of the crown had declared that many of the pensions on the list ought never to have been granted, he thought nothing was likely to satisfy the country short of a full, strict, and impartial inquiry. But the inquiry he should propose would be different from that which had been proposed by the hon. and learned gentle man, notonly in its mode, but also in its object. The hon. and learned gentleman proposed that this house should address the crown, praying an inquiry into these pensions. He (Mr. Strutt) concurred with the noble lord in his statement that this course would be disrespectful towards the Crown. The task must be an invidious one, and they had the full means of instituting such an inquiry within themselves. Ile had, however, a graver objection to the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman. He objected to it, because its object was to take away the pensions from those at present enjoying them. He had voted for the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman in February last, and he, nevertheless, could conscientiously oppose himself to the present motion. Indeed nothing on earth should induce him to support it. He disagreed with the motion of Feb ruary to a certain extent—he disapproved of the avowed object, which was to take the pensions away ; but the first step being inquiry, he thought lie might vote for that, re serving to himself the right to deal with any future branch of the motion as he thought proper. lie must contend that the custom had been to hard for the life of the party. Not a single instance had been quoted by the hon. and learned gentleman, in which it had not been so ; if any such existed, it could not be supposed he would not have brought them forward. Not only on changes of go vernment had the pensions been continued, but on changes of dynasty also, as had been shown by the noble lord- What right, then, had they to avail themselves of a flaw? (No, no.) He was not defending the abuses of the pen sion list. (Cheers.) He wished the law had not allowed any pensions to be granted, except for services ; but he felt that the honour of the country was pledged not to discontinue the grants, and that those who received them had a moral claim. He would go farther than the government went on this occasion ; in his opinion the parties receiving the grants had a vested interest in them. (Oh, oh.) Though he could not support the motion, he thought the house ought to institute an inquiry. He should, therefore, move as an amendment, that they should pursue the constitu tional method of appointing a select committee of this house. His object would not be to deprive • any of the present holders of their pensions, but he hoped good would result. If the cases were investigated, and impropriety, where any existed, were exposed, it would have the effe t ' of preventing the recurrence of such acts. The time must • necessarily come, in the course of events, when the civil j list should be revised by the house. Inquiry must follow upon this revision ; but surely it would be more wise of the house to anticipate that event by an inquiry, which could, be far better pursued at the present time than in the corn- mencement of a new reign. (Hear, hear.) He himself remembered and was present at such a revision of the civil list as he alluded to, but it then passed without inquiry ; but when the civil list would again come under the revision of the house, it might be urged that the pension list should specify the particular services performed; and if any grants were made by his Majesty on other grounds, they should come out of the privy purse. If the pension list were to continue, care should be taken to have it set round with proper checks and guards. It might be objected by those opposed to investigation, that possibly painful disclosures might be made by the inquiry. The object of the inquiry was not to give pain, but to secure the list from future abuses ; and if, by the detection of abuse, pain were inflicted, it would be no injustice done to the individual, who, in such an event, must form part of the abuse ( Hear, hear.) It might and had been also objected, that if the inquiry were agreed to, many people would surrender their pensions. If such were the case, the very act of surrender would be a sort of prima facie evidence of abuse. as far as they were concerned. (Hear, hear.) It might be objected that agreeing to the inquiry would be consi dered as expressing an opinion ; but this was one which was not of any weight. When the report of the com mittee was laid before them, the house would be compe tent to adopt what measures they pleased upon it. In acting as he did, he might subject himself to obloquy by not supporting the proposition of the hon. member for Col chester, but he felt himself supported in the conviction that his own proposition would be more useful. It was on these grounds that he would move for the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the expenditure charged on the Civil List and the Consolidated Fund, in order to ascertain the nature and extent of any abuses which may exist, with a view to give full effect to the resolutions of the house, passed on the 18th of February last. Mr. ROMILLY cordially supported the amendment. Lord AL THORP, though he admitted that there was a distinction between the original motion and the amend ment—inasmuch as the proposition of the hon. monber for Colchester would go to take away the pensions--still considered them both objectionable. One of the grounds on which the inquiry was sought, was the excitement of the public mind with regard to this question of the Pension List ; and it had been urged that the object was not to de prive the holders of pensions of what they received. It was said that the inquiry alone would satisfy the public. They assumed too much who said this, though the hon. member for Derby insisted that the exhibition of the gross abuse was all that was required. In his (Lord Al thorp's) opinion, such a result would not be satisfac tory; nor did he see the advantage which would follow the inquiry, if the house would call to its recollection who they were who advised the Crown when the grants complained of were made. As to what had been urged with regard to the argument of pre venting abuse in future, what was said on that head had been by anticipation replied to by the resolution passed on the 18th of February, by which a distinct principle was acknowledged, andwhich was not admitted in former times. Either as to the past or the future, the inquiry would be productive of no benefit. If the house inquired into the past, with a view to censure the proceedings, they should pass censure on the dead, as the grants were made on the recommendation of persons now in the grave. (Hear. ) Besides the inutility of the inquiry, there was another ob jection which, though it had been ridiculed by the hon. member for Colchester, must still have its weight, and that was that the investigation would be calculated to wound the feelings as well of those who conducted as of those who were the objects of the inquiry. For these rea sons, then, the inutility of the inquiry, and the unnecessary pain it would occasion to individuals, he should, notwith standing the obloquy which might attach out of doors both to himself and those who went with him on the question, feel himself bound in the exercise of his duty to vote against both the motion and the amendment. Mr. HUME regretted that ministers exhibited an in clination to oppose all inquiry on this subject. The ground upon which the house should proceed in this matter was, whether services had been given for the rewards thus granted. (Hear, hear.) It would be very desirable that the house should proceed upon a principle such as this, for it would dignify a list to which now no other idea than one of disgrace was attached. It was the duty of the house to purge and clear the list from such obloquy. It was not merely the saving which should be looked to, but they should also endeavour to satisfy those who paid the taxes, by showing them that the produce of their sweat and toil was not carelessly and lavishly bestowed on unworthy ob jects. (Cheers.) The motion negatived in February, and the amendment now b fore the house, were nearly the same, and the amendment was better than the motion which it was intended to supersede. If, on inquiry, shame ful abuses were discovered, did they imagine the people would be satisfied if these abuses were not corrected? Where grants were properly made the people would not object to them ; they would not object to any founded on the principle laid down in the resolutions of the 18th of February ; but whilst they beheld the misery which was the consequence of taxation and at the same time looked upon those who were enjoying the fruits of their labour without any service returned, they never would consent to that which was a disgrace to the house to permit. ( Hear, hear.) He, would ask the noble lord (Althorp) whether, though one of the advisers of the Crown in making these grants was dead, others were not living on whom the responsibility should rest ? Hitherto responsibility was only a name. It henceforward would be something more, and it was the duty of a re formed House of Commons to teach ministers what they had to expect if they violated their oaths of office, by abusing the trust reposed in them by their monarch, and betraying the confidence of the people. It was peculiarly the duty of the house to purify this list, if only for the en couragement of real merit, which now, in consequence of the obloquy attached to it, never contemplated it as a source of reward. The noble lord admitted that unwor thy persons were to be found upon the list, to whom pen sions had been improperly granted. Then how could he oppose the inquiry? Let it be seen who had recommended these persons, and let the adviser meet the merited punish ment. It was not so much the money as the principle in volved in the question which caused the public excitement. He admitted that with regard to the pension list th - e acts and advice of the present ministry were calculated to bear inquiry ; but it certainly was extraordinary that by stifling the call for inquiry they should cloak the misdeeds of others. ( Hear, hear.) After what•had been said by the honourable member for Colchester, was there a person in that house who could vote on the forthcoming question of the poor laws, and yet refuse to investigate the question now before the house? For himself, he was ready to support either the original motion or the amendment,or both. Indeed he did not care which. (A laugh.) He would beg to state, for the information of hon. gentle men, who did not seem aware of it, that he could vote for both. Mr. JERVIS would support the original motion, though there were many members of his family who drew large sums from the list. The question was, whether his Majesty should not be requested to revise the list? and it was, in his mind, a most reasonable one. Not the King, but his advisers, were responsible for the exercise of this portion of the royal prerogative ; the course proposed was with a view to ascertain whether he had been misled by his advisers, and it was a course both constitutional and mo narchical. (Hear.) It had been argued that the grants thus made were guaranteed by acts of parliament, and could not be revised. The noble lord (Althorp) had sub mitted the power of revising them, and he (Mr. Jervis) would read the passage of the speech. ( Here the hon. member read an extract from a speech spoken, as we un derstood, in 1823.) The hon. member went on to sup port the original motion, which he preferred to the amend ment, as that, according to what was said by the hon. inquiry, upon who moved it, would end in empty upon which, if nothing followed, the public would not be satisfied. (Cheers.) Every farthing which had been un deservedly granted, and wrung from the hand ofindustry, should be resumed. (Hear.) He would therefore beg of the hon. member for Colchester to press on his motion, nor rest satisfied until inquiry had been made into every item of the list. (Hear.) He would at the same time to p them, r e ssu the by governmentwithdrawing the their er opportunity opposition, nm o v f heldwinn winning golden opinions from the public. Should they not do so, it would only confirm him (Mr. Jervis) and those who acted with him, that nothing could be got from the pre sent ministry, and that they might expect more from the opposite and more violent Tory party. (A laugh.) He said " more violent Tories," because he believed the pre sent Government to be actuated by Tory principles. (Cheers.) They had already almost alienated public opinion, and would soon be distrusted by all. Mr. BYNG professed himself determined to vote de cidedly against the motion of the member for Colchester, and wondered that such a difference of opinion could be raised on a question so simple. his Majesty, at the com mencement of his reign, had made a compact concerning this list, in consequence of complaints of abuse, and he entered into the contract on an understanding that the grants made by his father and brother should remain un touched. The bargain was a most advantageous one to the country ; but even were it no t, h av i ng been once enteredinto, the compact s h ou ld no t b e - violated. He himself did think that hi s f ormer vo t e wou ld h a ve sub jected him to the displeasure of his constituency, but when he met them he never was afraid of stating the motive of that vote ; and he was happy to add, that he never met one of those constituents, who, when the case was thus put, did not express his satisfaction. Much as had been said on the subject of pensions, the pecuniary saving to be derived even from their total suppression would be trifling. Was it for this paltry grant that it was sought to control his Majesty in the exercise of his Royal bounty, and that too in violation of a solemn compact? Was it for this that the people of this country were to interfere between the crown and those whose high birth had not exempted them from the casualties and misfortunes of life ? No, the people of this country were a generous people, and on their generosity and judgment he confidently relied. (The hon. gentleman, who was generally inaudible, sat down amidst loud cheers. ) Mr. HAWKINS must protest against the motion of the hon. member for Colchester, as a motion which did not deal fairly either with his Majesty, his ministers, or the objects of his bounty. (Hear.) He protested against calling on the King to take any part in so invidious an act as that of depriving the possessors of pensions of the means which had been conferred upon them by his predecessors. These pensions were not granted during the present reign: his Majesty had no control over their original grant ; he had no means of ascertaining whether their pos sessors were meritorious or not; and they had therefore no right to call on his Majesty to undertake the odious and disagreeable office of deciding who should retain or who resign their pensions. (Hear.) If they, the Commons of e e ßa n ( d d n t England, thought it their duty to recall any of those under takepen- btwheasante a nfit suchhe task i e oaid iatooumts t io: h ded e ei m rpotu s yf e b l p i o i c e bo. s c . ; :ions, let them have the courage and manliness to saoe 11:1)1 H dr ee, e , dowe d irnhdyo wouldnt‘vbo ia t sth s baei wished et ge t those, nobody hear. aiihve to see it executed, should at least do it themselves. Do not let them seek to gain the popularity resulting from making such a demand, and leave to others the odium and responsibility of enforcing it. (Hear, hear.) But it had been suggested in the course of the debate, that this was a measure which could not fix any personal odium on the Crown ; that the address was a mere matter of form ; and that, if complied with, the process of execution would be by a commission. But his objection was, to mixing up the name of the King in any way with the' question. And he would say, further, that his objection to calling upon the King was only greater than his objection to calling on his ministers. He would not ad vert to the nature of the grants, nor to the arrangements by which they were provided for in 1831. They might quibble as they pleased on the words " during pleasure ;" they might vary the charges as they pleased on settlements on the civil list, and settlements on the consolidated fund (Hear)—the plain fact was, that acts of Parliament thus solemnly and deliberately passed by the three estates of the realm, gave and granted to these individuals respec tively the amount of those pensions at least during the life-time of the present sovereign. (Hear, hear, and No. ) Would hon. members deny the acts of 1831 ? Would they deny that the act settling those pensions on the con solidated fund secured them to their possessors during the life-time at least of their respective possessors? (" No, no. It is during pleasure.") Yes ; but that was not the pleasure of Parliament, but the pleasure of the King (Hear, hear, hear) ; and even granting the King had a right to annul these pensions, it did not follow that Parlia ment had any right to interfere. These acts were passed by the same Parliament which passed the Reform Bill, which was a yet stronger argument in proof of the ex istence of that compact. (Hear.) It might be asked how, entertaining these opinions, he came to vote for the recent motion of the honourable member for Colches ter? He would tell why. Because that was a motion for inquiry; and though he was not prepared to interfere with existing pensions, yet he thought inquiry highly de sirable. He was aware that many members who sup ported that motion, and the hon. mover himself, were charged with having views far beyond inquiry, and ex tending, indeed, to confiscation ' • bat he never considered it fair to act on the presumed motives of members ; he judged by the terms of the motion alone, and on his appro bation or disapprobation of the motion itself he gave his vote. (Hear, hear.) He voted for inquiry, and inquiry alone. Many of those who considered that these pen sioners had a vested interest during the life of the present King, thought that upon his decease some pruning might take place. It was obvipus that all who so thought must support inquiry. (Hear.) All knew that upon the pre sent pension list there were many highly deserving and meritorious persons. Now, without some previous in quiry, it was impossible, at the period when they would be called upon to pursue some decisive course, that • they should be able to distinguish the worthy from the un worthy. An inquiry into such a subject would be long and difficult, and there was but little chance of such an inquiry being prosecuted during the interval between the demise of one sovereign and the settlement of the civil list of the next. (Hear, hear.) If the inquiry was post poned till that period, the unavoidable consequence would be, that they would be compelled to decide without any inquiry at all. (Hear.) Practically there would be two parties in the house—one of whom would be for retaining the pension list in a lump, without inquiry, and the other for abolishing it in a lump, without inquiry also. Another advantage resulting from inquiry would be the diminution of the pre judice that might exist by the clearing up of the true state of affairs, so that in the event of the demise of his present Majesty, which he trusted might long be postponed, the pension list might be put upon a just and satisfactory foot ing. He claimed inquiry therefore ; he claimed it on these grounds—he claimed it on the score of justice to former ministers, whose demerits in granting these pen skins had, he was sure, been greatly exaggerated ; and he claimed it on the score of justice to those meritorious indi viduals whose pensions were the rewards of a life of public service, and who, he was convinced, were far more nu merous than public indignation could at present believe. (Hear, hear, hear.) He believed that the refusal of the inquiry would be attended with grievous injustice to those who carried the Reform Bill ; it would be a grievous in justice to ministers, who, he doubted not, were burning with a just indignation at the exaggerations which had gone the round of the public press. He had been told that they withheld their votes from an inquiry, lest inouiry might lead to a resumption of benefits conferred by them on former dependants ; but if they did not volunteer to come forward and exonerate their patrons, they were but little worthy of their solicitude. It was right that parlia ment should, as a third and independent party, step in and do justice to those who felt themselves honourably with held from doing justice to themselves. He should there fore support the amendment. (Loud cheers. ) Sir R. PEEL—I do not profess to be labouring under the influence of those feelings which the hon. gentleman who spoke last ascribed to former members of his Majesty's Government. I cannot say that I am possessed with that indignation which he has so . profusely lavished on me ; I cannot say that I am burning with indignation at the charges made against me, or that 1 have any such anxiety to vindicate myself as he appears to suppose. (A laugh.) To not one of those charges do I attach the slightest im portance. (Hear.) I will not be influenced by any mo tives of false delicacy or mistaken honour to consent to a motion that I believe to be inconsistent with justice, and with the respect which we owe to the crown. (Hear. ) Though I entirely approve of the manly course taken by the noble lord on this question—though I believe that he is perfectly right in resisting both motions, and though I heard with satisfaction the declaration, worthy of a mini ster of the crown, that, pass what resolutions you pleased, he would not be the servile tool to execute them (Hear, hear); though I willingly re-echo that sentiment, yet I am not obliged to the noble lord for carrying before me what he seems to consider his protecting shield. (Hear. ) I do not know what the issue of this debate may be. I know it is confidently predicted that the inquiry will have a majority in its favour. I do not believe it ; but if it be so, to me personally it is a matter of but little consequence. With regard to anypension on that list of which I have any cognizance, I have not the slightest apprehension of going before any tribunal. (Cheers.) I have no personal interest in any; and all of which I have any cognizance are, I firmly believe, applied in the strictest accordance with the spirit of the act empowering the crown to confer them. The speech of the hon. member for Derby annihilated all the grounds of the hon. member for Colchester; and the speech of that hon. gentleman annihilated all those on which the hon. member for Derby rested his case. The hon. member for Colchester proposes an address to the crown, advising his Majesty to revise his own acts, and to withdraw those pensions, the continuance of which Isis Majesty had himself confirmed. This another hon. gentleman opposes as disrespectful to the sovereign, and at variance with the duty which we owe to his Majesty ; and nothing less will content him, than giving to such a motion a direct and unqualified negative. Yes, a negative. I\o previous question, none of those delicate parliamentary modes of getting rid of an unpleasant motion sometimes adopted ; nothing but a direct and unqualified negative will satisfy the hon. member. The hon. gentleman said the motion was inconsistent with the respect due to the crown ; that if the question were to have been raised at all, it should have been raised previously to the settlement of the civil list; and that, as his Majesty himself had not thought proper at that period to make any alteration, it would not be becoming in the House of Com mons, after having granted to his Majesty the means of conferring those pensions, now to turn round upon him, and call on him to revoke these instances of his royal bounty. I agree, too, with the honourable member for Derby, that you cannot, with any consistency, call on the present ministers, who advised his Majesty to make this arrangement, now to advise his Majesty to recall it. How could his Majesty's ministers with decency adopt such a course ? I certainly think the proposition of the lion. gentleman (Mr. Strutt) the more respectful of the two, but I cannot help feeling, to the fullest extent, the objec tion which the hon. member himself made against his own plan. The objection was urged with great force, and ap peared to me to be fatal. 1 turned round several times during the delivery of his speech to friends near me, and said, " This is a most excellent speech, but what, in the name of wonder, can be the nature of the amendment which a man entertaining those sentiments can propose ?" Not only, said the hon. gentleman, did he oppose this on the ground of justice, but he opposed it also on the ground of policy ; for, said he, nothing could be more prejudicial to the great cause of gradual reform and the amelioration of our institutions, of which he is so desirous, than to encum ber it with acts of individual injustice ; and unjust it cer tainly would be to withdraw the amounts of those pensions from their existing holders. This being the doctrine of the hon. gentleman, on what principle does lie ask us to appoint a select committee ? The hon. member for Col chester himself seemed to admit the impossibility of it. He said, that though originally in favour of an inquiry, subse quent consideration had induced him to alter his opinion. The hon. member said, that when lie thought of the prac tical results of such a measure—when he thought of the necessity for calling before their tribunal of inquiry inno cent ladies of high rank—when he thought of young and delicate females having to inquire through the purlieus of that house their way to No. 13.--the committee-road to ' v. hich they were to be called—there appeared to be son ic ! thing so revolting to the feelings of an Enghsn gentleman, thai, !" though he approved of a select committee, the vision e: i s those ladies waiting in the committee-room to be examieslit by the committee of which the hon. and learned gentleinaa would be chairman, had induced him to abandon his magas nal intention and proceed by address. (Hear, hear, hear.) The hon. member fos Derby tells the people of England that these are vested rights, and et asked for an exanli% tion into them, in order to satisfy pure curi ,, sitY• , ' l , O admits that you can swe nothing by it—that not a sing! farthing can be saved; but in order to gratify the pubic curiosity as to the way in which these pensions we e', granted, we are to waste the public time in a select Co"'" w, mittee—a committee which I certainly think would be co pelled to return one of the most curious reports that ecte,l emanated from any committee of this house. (He ar ' ),, a 1 all proceedings more dangerous to property of every sl o than another would be such a proceeding as this ; for vide could have a more injurious effect upon property than bt, daring that the owners possess it at once by legal rig i t and by a species of moral turpitude ? (Hear, htar.), it , would even be better to address the Crown to rest:in:lt own acts and proceedings, than to have that odious It:0 committee for the purpose of making inquiries which hop be of no possible use or public advantage. The 'ttoa, question,indeed, is pregnant with grounds of or tence But above all other objections is this, that the " 5 ..6 1 4 and continuance of these pensions form part of the ells` tia compact between the King and the people. (flora? Was under what circumstances was this compact made ' , pa it a mere grant of a sum of public money to the Crosse la the purpose of granting pensions ?—Certainly not os 1830 the King sent a message to the House of Connecta in which he resigned to his people revenues that ha d n e before been given up to them. 1 His Majesty said— ,i,..5, " By the demise of my lamented brother, the late p• the vil list revenue has ateexrd. tiO I place without reserve your disposal myinteres be the hereditary revenues, and in those funds winch -4 10 1 derived from an y d ro it s o f t h e C rown or Admiralty, either ' the r the West I n di a d u ti es , or f rom any casua l rev enues' in my foreign possessions or in the United Kingd° ul ' s 1,0 1 1 " In surrenderi ng t o you my i nterest i n re venues `s" at() have in former settlements of the civil list been reserve. 0 , the crown, I rejoice in the opportunity of evincingli e t a " tire reliance on your dutiful attachment, and my e°— „, e ll' that you will cheerfully provide all that may be n—els r for the support of the civil government, and the boos and dignity of my crown." revenues s a And what was to be the equivalent for the i bl liberally given up? What but the civil list grantee the Parliament in lieu of those revenues ? What w ere e ? terms in which the Commons replied to that graci ous 5 ; to sage? [The right hon. baronet then read the ans we sa aa the address, which was as usual an echo of that n; e o .,, — Sty promising the suitable provision for the honour anu ci pl es tS of the crown, and declaring their gratitude to his 3 , Nais for the resignation of the hereditary revenues, gie.l . la; was the address which you then presented, and neas'e'seot way of showing your gratitude truly ! you wish to Pr sa y. a second address four short years only after the othe,r , t he ing that you have done wrong, that the provision n i t t he pension last ought not to have granted, and th a (t of present Parliament is determined to rescind the % o at; the former, which expressly and on such considl aa nal guaranteed the continuance of that provision \ - Tae the life of the Sovereign. (Hear, hear, hear; a i„ thi s , construction which the former Parliament place" l a ced grant may be seen fiom the fact that 75,000/. wa s P the on the civil list, and the further sum of 83,0 00 / . e at thi s consolidated fund. What right have you to say' th s'; a eir construction is not binding on you? Even the , n,°',.. o si i ich tleman who has just sat dcwn recognized the riaT aers of these arrangenients conferred on ' the present bul t o f tlio pensions. The act of Parliament for the settlemen d t i l ed civil list, recited the message and the address , s a i l ails conferred this grant on the King, in order to ' (Hear, hear), were chargeable on the hereditary had "go, in England and Scotland, &c., which his 111aj estY•learl 'th e nized, the next clause provides that in how c c'ously surrendered; and to show further is recog' •ions . vested interests of the parties holding Pense event of th e to provide for all those pensions which, prior tebnteast.lienieis the i re sent Ala', resumption of the hereditary revenues by lbs P. os s hould jesty, - his heirs, or successors that such P en' revenues. If,h a - sam become chargeable on the hereditary sued to Pus therefore, the hon. gentleman had been 'rtue of drat tended that the persons holding penstons by.vi the the life of Pre) compact, are entitled not only during _ _., bea r. sent monarch, but during their own lives. (Hea r o _ c ould Ifs argument a little further, be might ifnafil:yhave 01y Indeed it must be quite clear that such a provirstens were only be made on the presumption that these parties thei: entitled to the enjoyment of these pensions during asse p iarnent p lives. And by whom was that act of Porl the il i a ,.... By the very Parliament that passed the Reform ] s' at al Parliament elected under the excitement of idav xna , or i, which ra3sed the Reform Bill by such triumphant t i t s ir ties. Is it, then, I will ask, wise to attack the solon 01 , cisions of former Parliaments? Or can you safely iniP t . oo ? one decision without bringing another into ques l iassa What security can there be ror property, when the ' it , s-curing it are not respected, even by the legislature .0 self ? (Hear, hear.) I really think a great misconstrue' , prevails as to what the intentions of Parliament really wr ite in granting pensions. It was thought expedient that right of the Crown to grant pensions should be limited,, point of amount, but it was never intended that th-,r; should be any limit as to the persons for whose benefit . ' . 3 " 0 Crown was to exercise its right. Ido not wish to_ . l,' . o f any opinion on the noble lord's resolutions of the 11','1(.1, May, which for the future regulate the principle: o r n_n et a, pensions should be granted ; but I submit that 1 a I , l a i '" t t ot when it granted this sum to his Majesty, gran i t i e" fer the for the purpose of rewarding official service, „ la l ouil ts; mere purpose of exercising his royal favour aa 6....u5e Yon and I cannot conceive a greater injustice than, no i o ns were now condemn the principles on which these p . Si_ ters act granted, that you should turn round on the suni rt i o ' d on the ing under the sanction of former parliament! t;a11 be saerve unfortunate holders of pensions, and say they s hear. ) Th thority. I certainly was surprised fired to your new notions of policy. ( 11 , e , at er i se as his ae i hon. gentleman has ventured to refer to aa! _ 1 tbou ght e; t he speech could remember more than one passage', with the prier; that celebrated statesman utterly at variane , in ,y CO ciples laid down to-night. Nor am I wist lo e ns u ie al ref°r T jecture. Mr. Burke in his speech on eco Christmas, °, says, " I do not propose, as I told you before v this, it nit,' take off any pension. (Hear, hear.) a' ow o f which t , be remembered, was the speech on the politph' e ' right 111, present pension system was arranged. ( extracts k r gentleman then proceeded to read further t any bon, her Burke.) If (he went on to say) yo u wan oul „ and ). 0 1 .„ proof, it is only necessary to reflect for a ~t rir , d ted the PT,Lt will readily see that, if Parliament had a P been cau ots ciple of imitation, accounts would hav:uch aoconas for from time to time, and that __.„,. dissu,; ( would have formed constant themes for t h " e 'E;; . ) 13 a n r. , sions between contending parties. (Fic ar , nos ed by f _ 3 5 independently of this, other acts have be f i ei ;a servi ' ab j io g liament to enable the crown to reward o d the act en t he for instance, the superannuation act, a n _ cro wn. l' e f sli his Majesty to reward ministers of the, ed. And althoua,, pensions act has always remained unton e " base occasion :1 you may think that the crown as in ido not think tit;t lavished rewards on public servants , with any coi r e t at that,. the pension list has ever been perverted,., /Oh !) . I ° ad . view of influencing votes in parliament. N • cae ction , a, public insi the caas believe it. There is the list open to . f it wer e ta d it would not be difficult to prove it, I arbans en 0 , (Hear, hear.) Up, then, to the year 183 0 , P r , der this t he ministers acted upon this construction, and en ,idreSs , o f pression; and I submit, therefore, that now to .7 ~ act, , crown, or to appoint a select committee would be ',; ea ot , moat manifest injustice. (Hear, hear, hear.) 1 w i s elY t, ject be reform, that reform would, as has beet' 1 detil , marked, be injured and impeded by such an act• cre o f core too, that the tory ministry are liable to the chart us ed t it a i ruption in the disposal of pensions, or that theY,r c isitig • o s intention of the pension list in occasionally .?,,,ibtatin, majesty to make use of it for the purpose o . t e l o a o `, goi _ , 1 4 4 official arrangements. (Hear, hear.) Yo a: vin a rev' t ; aj ii e , to dry up the sources of that power of best? a lt:th e r e , for service which was once considered essontict of re ,urJ blie being of the state. (Hear, 'hear.) The ° t b r bat rleasti poss sent labours seems to be to ascertain . ea t a c the _ et seet men can be invited into the public ' chat wi ll be ti e l o ifies sible expense. (Hear, hear, hear.) e advantage? to d e " of depriving every public man of thosceelent to hint, eo ,) which formerly operated as coil in de iknow not. ( t P. or vote his time and energies to the pc, talent into coot'ase I hope you may be able to invite grea taking a in vite , e 0 vice of the Crown ; I hope you are , a , the P"%selves to obtain the assistance of those in who to set t liei 1 je ,o, place confidence, and to induce then 0 it naq y oo apart for the service of the . people. ' I 'JO and tout I°l but I think you have taken a wrong c' ers.) Y i t ub lic, are pursuing a mistaken policy. (Cr",' to rewash his think that the pension list is not intenden, rev iew „ airs o services. , I say that it is. (Hear. ) Ju tt s'S, s a tbe„ 'dill tory of the public men who have influe T s. Beg i . t his this country (hiring the last twenty yet co notrY,, eaa ).--a Mr. Fox. He directed the business of tn , war, I' fare; i house. llow long did he survive Pitt? ,cos 1 0 1 5 a, ~ and who succeeded him (Pitt), and what u _ .jet i t r o pr He was cut off in the prime of his life-I:_.tti!ot soffits mature grave by an intensity of labour , %'' Fitt o f 0 : 0 , human constitution could sustain. (Ile a t r b . hand ° e l'Y ceeded by Perceval. He perished bided in this hoults_Aky sassin. ( * Mar, hear.) lie was suee_e: t. , , va s ilDtlo l!';iiii t ! Lord Castlereagh, whose untimely' atblie service:utlioo brought about by his devotion to , IDE' LlDefilbered v'_..iabty. eountry—a fate aich could scarce did abilitie, thel e s . of a tributary tear. Look at the splen n . _, the i r saer i " tet heri services of those great men. Tl t.' ' s.s.k yo u w ba ntea ti health, strength, and life itself, andhil)a s a a at of P ar os s'' looking at the constructin shrunk upon t ' ~i i o att? Ma' at the time, those who not from t e i .isea hi as i e to t necessary duty were to blame if they s a I' ve ple asa ,o o jesty to bestow his. Royal bounty . (li eu ) th „ sow 0 call it so) for the purpose of f a cilita,i ., g. „., is hen ‘tice s arrangement of business, and pro,vil ar the' f the'''. other mode of provision appeared, Sa ~, e r o f oft and families of those who devoted the no: /ear . ) vic e ? (r • serest existence to the service of their country t h e übbe I - WO know how difficult it is to provide for p mo lts. • without resorting to some such arrang ~~