The Sun. — London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

of their administra teform. He had a gentleman connected re received an assor t of the Bill to which 'eyed essential to its tt.a to the House as During the recess, h e ithers, who confirm. o been assured by the endment now before ;as not of a hostile th the Gallant Ge oval of the proposed ,mised to support the :ries of, " Oh, oh.") red that he was act is Majesty's Govern_ seemed necessary t o and and Ireland, hi_ beter, he thought, Members than to of April, the Noble it was thought de.. rourable to the prin. the House should een induced to relax hinking it of vital of April the Noble :r, said, that in order hich seetue I to have 'e Noble Lord (J. wished to state that re the whole numbe r ly proposed to . take se, upon consulera diminish its Mein bink that such an Bill as to induce ever considered the Bill.—(Hear. ) vas declared to be on of his Gallant ac .invidious mea set down as enemies ith sides.) He was language.—(Hear.) ,nd repeated cries of ,Ipport the Govern-. ling could ever have iosition to it might to disfranchisement he had always con part of the consti e time he haul never ) universal suffrage; t if those measures to others by which would speedily be Reformer who could Reform every week. 1, oh.") He was ut off his principles ,—(Repeated cheer r, by his Indecision, rew doubt upon his cheering.) Neither )assed his word to uld support his mo. r his political inde the Government to y of every man ear- Irivate interests--to rtunes, but those of learer than his own cter for political in gression.) But the • had been such, as upon a die, which, cast.—(Cheers.)— its, as it endangered, I tranquillity of the t himself in a posi.. lot retract his pro-- he (after the decla dlor of the Exclie duty to his consti leers.) He could ose cheers. Who, h cheers to impugn .) Let them stand He did not shrink ad been involved ; led into his present ence. He was pre be trust which they ived of hit;:conduct, should be the carr el on that occasion, e would carry with lection of the cour that House, and a im into private life :egrity.—(Cheers.) to Gallant General of change of lan ich, however easily hful enemy, could nfidin!, friend. If .hed at that change t be the astonish nge of language.-- hing that the G r—(Hear, bear)--- reconcile his oppo with his own pro. t know what the uents, who would, course followed by Lis readiness to re defeated the tries attached—(Hear, aslant Baronet hal parture by one of beers and laughter) ) wished to say a complain that his i on a question of or three evenings I.) In whatever ght have had with ion, he (Mr. Stan in confidence ; fur Thant Member a as hat he was tu o appeared now that confidential roan !l' who moved the rnself to support a o defeat the meta -rear, hear.) Al (Sir R. Wilson) :endency.—( Hear, heard the No:ule much of his little e hear the Noble fight forward with Lord thought that le Bill would sup sear.) The object t the confidential dyed upon, was to ' le measure of the know what gen (A laugh.) Par strangely :nixed. • des were strangely illy calculated not t to catch as m;• Ministerial) a de. ' , ere so nnwillin; to a hasty division ho introduced the ime when his me ad not underpin Yes, yes.") Well, Hear, and order.") ler in his not-con -Yes, yes, an] 'er it had not been take more certain afforded by this cries of -" Hear, ntentions to move of Great Britain e not then a little ore into disfavour, :ed in contrast to Was it not then present shap e , as er the whole Bill ) ask the Gallant in the di.enssioo ,nrenieuces wlii ti ir:ionsuf the in; ktion? had th r the discunion ( 4 , at prin c i p l e Iv o id still more Y'—(Hear, bear) and no, no.)--,And ha I not the discussion . of diet Ante, ► niversaily approved principle been renewed upon a deltas. which prof e ss e d to concede the relative proportion of the _ representation of England and Wales to that of the re mainder of the United Kingdom ?—(Cheers.)—lf hr rightly understood the Hon. Member for Southwark, that Gallant Officer was hound, in duty to his constituents, to oppose the resolution then before the House, altheugh he could not support the 13111.--(No, no, and loud cheer ing.)—What, then, was he to support the resolution and the Bill also ?—(No, no, and yes, yes.)—Well, then, he was bound to speak against the Bill, as he had spoken, and to vote for it—(Nu, and cheers)—or to speak in fa vour of the amsndment and not to vote for it or for the Bill? The Gallant Member seemed to him to hare very doubtful notions of his duty.—(Hear.)—He understood the Gallant General to !egret that the English people were by tae Bill to be less efficiently represented, because the number of those professing to represent them was to be diminished. But he would ask the Hon. and Gellant Member, did he not believe, that although the number of English Members in that House were diminished by the Bill, still the real constituency, the nunther of English. men actually represented, would be considerably increased ? —(Cheers.)—The country had received the Bill with almost unqualified and universal approbation.—(L ou d cries of " No," and " Yes," from different parts of the House.)—The country was well pleased that the consti tuency was enlarged, and complained not that the number of representatives was diminished by the measure, which at the same time cut off se many sources of corruption.— (Cheers.)—Were the Hon. Members who are prepared to vote for the amendment proposed by the Gallant General prepared to go still further, and vote that the Members of the House should be increased?—(No, no, and hear, hear.)—This would be the result of the vote, unless they were also prepared to contend that no additional Members should be given to Ireland and Scotland.—(Hear )—The Hon. and Gallant General was, however, willing that Scotland and Ireland should receive an increase ; but how _ were they to receive it, unless by giving to them some of the seats taken from rotten boroughs of England, or by increasing the whole amount of the representation? This was the dilemma into which they were thrown by - those who opposed the reduction of the number of the English Members, but who in reality were anxious, through the means of flint opposition, to defeat the Bill altogether.— (Hear.)—There was a part of the question, connected with the proportions of the Members to be given to the three kingdoms, which he approached with the greatest pain. Much, indeed, did he regret, after all the discus sions they had alt eady had on such subjects, and after the passing of that great healing measure of Catholic emanci pation, which it was fondly hoped would have set the question at rest for ever--much, indeed, did he regret to hear the Noble Lord (Stormont) revive those discussions, and by again throwing down the apple of discord in that House seek to secure an opposition to the Bill on clues- tions of religious et.ntroversy.—(Hear, hear, hear.)--The Noble Lord contended that it was not so much a question of the comparative number of Metobers which should be given to Ireland, as the propriety of not giving a greater proportion of representatives to Catholic Ireland.—( Hear.) —ln this respect he differed in some degree from the Gal lant General, who had no objection to give additional Members to Ireland and Scotland ; but then the number • of:the representatives of England was not to suffer any decrease. For his (Mr. Stanley's) part, he con fessed he did not attach touch impor ante to these questions of national proportion.—(Hear.)—As long as he found great cities and towns, or populous districts, de prived of their fair share in the representative system of the country, it differed little to bitn whether these towns, end these cities, and these districts were situated in Eng land, land, or Scotland for, he thanked God, they were now one united people.—(Cheers.) Did, however, the Hon. Members and the Noble Lord who advanced these arguments respecting Ireland and her representation, recollect the consequences which must follow them, or consider what arguments they paced in the mouths of • those who contended that Ireland, if it was to be consi dered as a part of the empire, was entitled to her fair share in the representation ; and that if she was not fairly represented in the Parliament of England, she must be re presented elsewhere ?—(Cheers.) Ile entreated them to consider this, and to beware how they strengthened the influence of those who advocated a separation, which, he trusted in God, would never take place, by denying. to Ireland those rights which she was fairly entitled to de mand frorr her.—(Hear, hear.) The complaints of the advocates of the repeal of the Union were the more dan gerous in proportion as they were founded in justice ; and he trusted the time was gone for ever, when they could hope to govern by a system of exclusion. They had • passed the Catholic Relief Bill; they had abolished the penal laws ; they had put an end to all religious distinc tions, and he implored them, in the name of God, unless they intended to revert again to the vicious system they had abandoned, not to grudge to'qtthotic Ireland that fair share of representation in the Parliament of England, to which she was entitled by her wealth, intelligence, and popu lation. He turned now to the areutnents of another opponent of the Bill, his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Mont gomeryshire (Mr. C. Wynn), whose arguments he con fessed he had listened to with no little astonishment. That Right Hon. Gentleman had pursued the extraordinary course of arguing on that occasion against the principle of the Bill, although he had formerly expressed himself favour able to it.—(Hear, and "No !" from Mr. C. Wynn.) He begged pardon, he thought his Right Hon. Friend had dime so; but at all events his Right Hon. Friend, if j not cogniz int of the original framing of the Bill, had been consulted by the Noble Lord, and advised with and listened to on the subject of the provisions of the Bill for at least ten days before it was introduce d in that House.— (Hear , hear.) Ile cou'd not therefore avoid expressing his astonishment that his Right Hon. Friend should now give so strong an opposition to the principle as well as to the details of a measure with which lie hail been previously so well acquainted.—(Hear.)—The Right Hon. Gentle. man, among other arguments against the Bill, had declared his objection to their taking up.the principle of popula tion in their distribution of the franchise. Now, the Go vernment did not take population as a principle, but merely as a test, for the purpose t,f d:scovering whether the place to which they were disposed to give the franchise was above or below that rule of importance and consequence which would entitle it to obtain the right of returning Members to Parliament.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But then the Right Hop. Gentleman (the Member for Montgomeryshire) said that population was no test of that. He (Mr. Stan ley) admitted that it was not an •unvarying test, but yet, at the same time, it enabled them in many cases to ascertain the real condition of those places to which it was necess,ry that their inqu;ries should be applied. As a proof of this, he would take leave to read a short state ment to the House. He held in his hand a list of six places above and six places below the standard of population fixed by the Bill in the Schedules A. and B. ; that is, of six first places above and six below the numbers of 2000 and of 4000, which were the lines of disfranchisement adopted by the Covet nment. In the six first places below the line of 2000 inhabitants, he found a total of 152 inhabited houses at a rent of 10/. a year, making an average of 25 101. houses in each of those places. Again, in the six first places above' the line of 2000, there were 411 houses • rented at 10/. a year, making an average of 68 inhabited houses of that description in each borough.—(Hear.)— Again, taking the six first places above and below the line uf 4000 inhabitants, he found that the number of 101. houses in the six below were 766, making an average of 127 and a fraction. In the six boroughs above the line of 4000 inhabitants, he found there was a total of 1314 inha bited houses at 101. a year, 'making on average of 219 • houses of that description for each borough.—( Hear. ) He repeated his confession, that population was not an un et ring test, but he must also be permitted, from this state ment, to repeat his opinion, that it afforded evidence of that degree of wealth anti prosperity which formed the ground of preference in conferring the right of representa tion..--(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (the Mem ber for Alonteomeryshite), had object, d to the destruction'of the nomination of boroughs, and repeated the old arguments on the benefits the House derived from three boroughs, through the facilities they afforded to the entrance of merit and talent into that House. He admitted that ar gument to its full extent, but he teas satisfied that there would be as goo I an opening fir virtue, and talent, and knowledge, after the Bill passed. as there was now, and he was quite sure that there would be no indisposition on the part of the people to avail themselves of their assistance. —(Heer, hear.) The argument was, at best, a mere or atumentum ad hominem, and he was not disposed to de prive j the Right Hon. Gentleman of the advantage of it.— (Hear, hear.) He was sure, however, that there would be no want of talent in that House if the Bill received its as sent, and he really bad no fear eves that it would become too pure.--(Hear.) While he was on this part of the question, he might, say that he had received, not three hours since; a letter from a number of respectable persons, begging him to offer himself, in the event of a general election, as a . eandid a t e f or the county of Montgomery.— • • '( Hear , hear, and laughter.) He hoped his Right Hon. Friend would not be alarne•d.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) s He had no intention to avail himself of the offer thus so liberally made to him ; I , ut lie mentioned it for the pur pose -of showing that these persons, of whom there were so many distinguished by much greater powers than he could pretend to, would havenodifficcounlsttyitiunelgaesttiinnginiannt)e ..-s the House, and that they would find place, ready to come forward and afford them an opportunity of serving their country in that House. He held that, indeed. to be one of the great benefits of the Bill, that men of virtu, and knowledge will have an opportunity afforded them o' getting into that House without purchasing their seat. et being indebted to the favour of a patron.—(Hear.)—Tle Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Mon , gomere seemed to think that the Members fir the House should he increased rather than reduced, and that they shook' keep pace in that increase with the growth of the popula don anti prosperity of the country. Every one who knew anything of the conduct of business in that House, and pat ecu'arly in the Committees up stairs, must be sensible that numbers retarded the despatch of affeirs, and that business was better done by those who repre ' tented large bodies of constituents than by those why merely represented their own opinions.—(Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Gentleman said, however, that the husi ness ofthat House was o r nom ination principally boroughs. transacted by theHe (Mr :Ilem tort of the Stanley) denied that it was so. Except on some occa %ions, when Members of that description were canvassed for peculiar interest, or when they were called on to at tend to the wishes of some of their constituents, or to obey the commands of their patron, he appealed to all who heard him whether the real business of the Hous, was not transacted solely by the Members for counties.— (Hear, hear. hear.) He did not speak of public business when he said this. He knew that the greater part o' the public servants in that House were generally Meinheis for those borouglen He believed, indeed, he could men tion Cabinets in which almost every Member sat for a nomination borough.--(Hear, hear, hear.) He alluded solely to that business which was intimately con nected with the interests of his constituents. The Bight Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn) founded his chief objec tion to the Bill on the further demands to which it would give rise, and the continual excitement which it must keep up among those who would prefer these demands And how did the Right Hon. Gentleman propose to allay that excitement, and to stop those demands? Why, by not giving, for the present, above one-third of that which he admitted would be_requisite to produce a teriaporary tranquillity, while he at the same time admitted that something must be done:—(Hear, hear.) The argument, he confesses!, was not very logical, but it was the Right Hon. Gentleman's, and they were bound to take it=for its worth. One word as to the rotten boroughs. Whiat i waS it that they were about to disfranchise? Not the repre sentatives of the people of England, but those who either purchase a seat in that House for money, or owe it to the favour of a patror.—(Hear, and no.) He r peated his assertion, and he begged to call the attention of the House, in connection with this part of the subject, to a memorable instance of the manner in which it operated with respect to England. The Gallant General, and those who sup ported him, were unwilling to increase the number of the Members of Catholic Ireland at the expence of England ; and yet a distinguished Member of the Catholic body had somehow or other, by means to which it was not neces sary to allude, been selected to represent the English borough of Milbourne Port.—(Hear, hear.) Did not this form a complete answer to all the arguments which had been put forward on the subject of the balance of re presentation ?—(Hear.) The rotten boroughs, in fact, belonged to no country, and it was mere mockery to talk of the proportion of the Members of Ireland or Scotland, when it was in the power of any one who pleased, or possessed the means, to enter that House for one of the rotten boroughs of England. He had al ready occupied the time of the House much longer than he originally intended.—(Hear.) He would conclude, there. fore, by repeating what he had said frequently before, that the proposition now before them was a most insidious at tempt to get rid of the principle of the Bill, and secure the desti uction of the measure proposed by his Majesty's Government. It was clear to every man, that on the vote to which the House would come that night hung the ques tion of Reform—(Hear, hear, hear)—and he warned the timid, although, perhaps, sinecure Reformers, that how ever they may be led to judge of the nature of the quee don before them by any specious arguments, that this was the time when they were called on to show their desire for Reform.—(Hear.) He would tell them, and he would tell their constituents, that by the vote of that night they were either losing or gaining the first opportunity ever of fered them of gratifying or of defeating those high raised and highly exalted hopes of the people, that they would at least possess a House of Parhatnent really representing the feelings, the wishes, and the interests of every class in the country.—(Cheers.) Mr. C. WYNN, as he had been personally alluded to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, expressed a hope that the House would permit him to say one or two words in ex. planation.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he had the pleasure of, calling his friend, had charged him with having altered his opinions with respect to the Reform Bill, with having acted in a manner which he certainly could not have supposed that Right Hen. Gentleman would have supposed hint likely to act on such an occasion. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that lie had seen the Re-- form Bill ten days before it was presented to that House, and that lie had been advised with and consulted on its provisions. The Bill was certainly shewn to him on the Saturday preceding the week on which it was brought in, and lie then expressed his objection to it to the Noble Lord who framed it.—(Hear, hear, hear.) On that same evening he went still further, and expressed to the Noble Earl at the head of the Treasury his doubt whether he could support the whole of its pro visions. He told that Noble Lord that it was impossible he multi pledge himself to support it, but that he would wait until its details were explained more precisely, as he had not been consulted until the plan was completely set tled. The reason why he did not speak more decidedly at that time was, because he bad not an opportunity of reading the Bill more than once, and he was anxious to hear the opinions of those with whom he had always acted on previous occasions in opposition to some of those strong plans of Reform which had been more than once urged on their attendon.—(Hear, hear.)—For these reasons he de ferred, until a future day, saying more on the subject of an opposition which he, of course, considered to carry with it the immediate relinquishment of office.—(Hear.) --If it was meant to be insinuated that he had acted un fairly in not immediately tendering his resignation, he could only say, that he was most anxious, if he could find it possible, to avoid opposing the Bill. He felt that lie was bound to do so as much from the feelings of private regard as from respect to the opinions of a large body of his constituents, who entertained opinions favourable to Reform._( Hear, hear.)—He wished, therefore, to sup port the Bill; but, on the most mature consideration, he fund he could not.--(Cheers.)—The announcement which the Right Hon. Gentleman had just made with respect to the county of Montgomery, was no news to him. He had heard of the intentions in the Right Hon. Gentleman's favour some time ago ; but he could assure him he was not afraid of meeting him on the hustings at the election in that county. —( Hear, hear.)—Two -and thirty years of honest and zealous service in that House would, he hoped, prove sufficient to plead his cause with effect to the great body of his can- stituents. To their impartial judgment on his conduct he fully trusted, anal he feared not the result.—(Cl eere.) Mr. STANLEY disclaimed all intention to impute any act of unfairness to the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Montgomery. All he had said was this, that he felt surprised his Right Hon. Friend could have any doubt for a week, or for a day, respecting the principle of a Bill which he had that night condemned so strongly. Sir J. 111URRAY said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the Bill as likely to give that House better Members for counties; but it would not be easy to find more honest and altle representatives than they already possessed in the person of the Member kr the county of ecoßlop open wastgter, aaioslbems door,el aytt excuse which xlyteou O ns: n el eleef of mice ror td m main s e c e :x soae p f, ,ce changes, s alt eah,dionagi:tejesbets. objections It thattiy m szt e htsesty i l ae e I s d t t i .:er l t r, v ,h o eu e t would hat me t forward without delay. This was the reason offer, d ' for that great alteration in the political system of the country which they were now called on to adopt. He knew it would be said that the Government were pledged to a plan of Reform, and that they could not avoid bringing it forward as speedily as possible. He admitted that the seeds of the present measure were sown on the Opposition benches, and the fruits, however unripe or onwholesome, were now offered them by the Government.—(Hear.)— While they talked, however, of the perfection of their plan they seemed to forget the memorable and expressive de claration of a great Statesman (Mr. Fox), that if, by th, pecular interposition of Divine Providence, all the intellect of men was collected together, it would be impossible for them to frame a perfect Constitutb.n.--(flear, hear.)-- Applying himself to Scotland, he must say that the number of Scotch Members were greater now than they would be under the new system, fur it was well known that great numbers of Scotehmen sat for English boroughs. He had received a letter ft om the Moderator of the Synod in Scot and, stating that hi order to secure the Church of Scot land, there ought to be an addition to the number of Scotch A M ie e m m b b r r proposed, s of t h eof House two o c rep oln r in es o e n n s t . l tv P H e e mentionedeers a , nd foam this to show the extravagant notions to which the Bill had giv majoriltyie o lishe f v his d co t n h s e ti ti l e l n :so entertained ethe s a t me desire. • Mr. BERNAL said, the effect of acquiescing in the m uion of the Hon. and Gallant Member for Liverpool would be most injurious tiithe Eill. How was it possibl e to say that the number of English Members should Is 513 ; and yet to suppose that five additional Mentbets were to be given to Ireland and five to Scotland ? Bu' where would b. the dangor of the addition ? Could tin tddition of five Memhers.to Ireland, or the addition of five Ilembers to Scotland occasion any risk to the Church ? It was evident that the object in supporting the Hon. and Gallant General's motion was, to throw out the Bill in //mine; and he must express Iris surprise at the incon ,istency of the Hon. and Gallant General, who, having voted for the second reading of the Bill, now objected even to its principle.—(Hvar, hear.) Sir J. MALCOLAI, in explanation, had scarcely landed in Eneland when he received an invitation to represent the place for which he had the honour to sit, with an as surance that he should be as free as air..—( Hear, hear.) — lie should consider himself as a most degraded human heine, if he had consented to support opinions which well loot his own. Mr. NORTH foresaw when he first read the original Bill. t and would undertake to say that every lawyer in 1i ), House agreed with him, that the Bill would never ), presented for the approbation of the Cr3wn. Whit et might be thought of the fitness of its end, the means la) which that end was to be obtained were so manife•tly in ,,ttfficient, . that it was impossible that any Government, after due consideration, could think of adopting the Bill as it was originally introduced. It sh,)wed distinctly that those by whom it had been preferred had not fathortied the depths of the subject to which it referred. Every pa ge of it betrayed marks of doubt, has'e, and imbecility. I; bore on its face the proof of the inability of its author, and he might apply to it the language in which a great writer had described the feeble and ricketty offspring of the sub ject of his satire— " Got while his soul did huddled notions try ; And born a shapeless lump like anarchy." It was evidently necessary that great alterations should be made in the measure ; but he had hoped that those altera tions would be such as to correct its great original viee..— That vice was the uniformity which the Bill introduced into the elective franchise. He had hoped that the re framers of the Bill would have given to the elective fran chise that happy variety which had hitherto been found so inestirnably beneficial to the country. He could not help thinking the House had not sufficiently considered the ad vantages which resulted from that variety. They were of this nature. If by any combinations of circumstances one place h rd a leaning to a particular interest, the variety in the franchise created an antagonist bias in another place which corrected the partiality. The whole system of the representation was by that process beneficially adjusted.— But the change which the Noble Lord had made in the Bill was merely an addition to it,—a continuance of that (lull uniformity of the elective franchise which was the great fault of the Bill as it originally stood. The vessel still pursued its dull course in the stagnant water of a Dutch canal, upon an everlasting level. Not only in that respect, but almost in every other, the Bill was de fective, and worse than defective. In the peculiar cir cumstances of the times, one should have thought that means would not have been resorted to to point at tention to the fact, that the Legislative system was composed of three distinct parts. Yet one of the ex press objects of the Cabinet seemed to he, by the introduction of three separate Bills, to blazon that fact which every wise man would endeavour to keep out of view. If there were any time worse than any other for thus marking the difference in the three parts of a Legislative Body, belonging to what were once independent countries, it was at a time when a numerous and active party in Ireland had declared their determination to dis solves the happy Union with Great Britain. One of the soundest and most philosophical principles which influenced the great men by whom the Bill of Rights had been framed was, while they made the changes which circumstances rendered necessary, to mark the extent of those changes, and not unnecessarily to disturb established institutions.-- But what was the conduct of the present Cabinet? They did not determine the event of the changes which they 1 proposed, and whil e th e y cut off the rights of boroughs, 1 and conferred rights on other places, they disturbed various fixed and fundamental principles of the Constitution, which it was not necessary to disturb, and involved in discussion questions which it was not necessary to discuss. For in stance, why raise the difficult and delicate questions cone netted with the Union between England, Ireland, and Scotland? What purpo ,, e could that answer but to excite every had and rival feeling ; to make the Member for Waterford haggle in a bargain with the Member for Kirk cudbright; anti to render Paisley envious of the better luck of Limerick and Galway ? The jealousies and rivalties of former times, long buried, his Majesty's present Govern ment hail exhumed. They had " burst their cearmenta,".. and " ope'd the ponderous and marble jaws" of their sepul chre., " to cast them up again." The disadvantages, how ever, of the measure, the authors and supporters of it de clared were countervailed by the great benefit of which it was to be productive—described by the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer in his calm language as the destruction of nomination, and by the Hon. Member for Kirkcud bright, as the annihilation of the boroughtnongers. And here he insist observe, that greatly as lie respected the Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright, and highly as he estimated his genuine and sterling talents, be bad heard him last night, not with pleasure, but with surprise. The Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright, after having adverted to the retrenchments In ode by the Duke of Wellington (a decla ration highly complimentary to his Grace), declared that the power of the Crown bad been so weakened a n d im paired by those retrenchments that it had been absolutely annihilated. . And then the lion. Member added, " you allow the power of the borough Lords to be annihi. lated also ?" What kind of argument was this? Becaus e one great mound against tie injurioul increase of popular opinion was broken down, therefore they were to de destroy the barriers which still remained.—(Hear, hear.) Let that course be persevered in, and nothing would be left to resist the tide; but the Monarchy, the Pei rage, and the Church would soon be swept away as useless rub bish. The ten pounds a year freeholders in counties, and the ten pounds a year householders in towns would, for li a time, engage in a contest, with alternate superiority, until some conquering dictator, like those of Germany or Gaul, would interpose and reduce all under his singl e domination.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to ask the friends of the Bill in what way they supposed the representa tion under it for populous places would be supplied ? No candidate could possibly expect favour at a popular place, without flattering the people by the adoption o f popular prejudices. Any man who hail been sent to prison for riot or libel—any preacher of sedition from the pulpit of democracy—any proprietor of a republican press would be sure of success. What provision would there be for resisting men of that description, leagued together in a bond of common purpose? Vain would he the hope that the country gentlemen in the House, not bound by a n y.. distinct tie, vacillating, doubtful, and incoherent, could stand against such a combination. Another view of the subject had been taken by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman charged a Noble Lord, who spoke from the Opposition benches last night, with throwing into the House that apple of discord which every wise and good man would wish withheld. But the Right Hon. Gentleman and the other Members of the Government would find, that any attempt on the part of Ministers to fix the agitation of Ireland on those who op posed this measure would be perfectly useless. He bad been a firm advocate of the great measure of 1829, and particularly because it was likely to put an end to the agi tation of that country, and restore the peace that was so much wanted. Everybody acquainted with Ireland was aware that that measure tore up by the living roots some of the strongest affections or prejudices of the Protestants of Ireland, but they consented to the sacrifice as a means of providing for the security and tranquillity of the country. To obtain those objects the forty-shilliog freeholders were disfranchised, because they were likely to give a preponderance to the Roman Catholic interest. That measure was one of the peace-offerings to Protestant security. From the bench near which he then stood, the present Lord Chancellor of England expressed himself hos tile to the principle of the Bill, but declared that he would vote for it as essential to the success of the great rne ,sure. The forty-shilling freeholders, however-, were left in the towns, because there the Corporations were Protestant, and they having the power of admitting freemen through the means of their charters, would preserve their wren dandy. But the measure for reforming the representa tion . of Irel a nd ann ihil ate d t h ese C orporat i ons , an d disturbed the balance that w as th ere mean t to b e established. They had also passed an Act of Parliament contrary to the Con 'titution, giving to the Government great temporary power, which nothing could justify but the great advan tages expected to result. On that occasion the languag e of Statesmen of all descriptions was, that agitation must be put an end to, for repose and tranquillity were 8.1)07 all things necessary in Ireland. The Government had, however, by ibis measure, caused a far greater agitation in Ireland than was known before—(Hear, hear) —and that that which all good men had laboured to suppress, — (Hear, hear.) He might say, indeed, that there was a n discordsb eiaud) amour commanded non. Memb er o f th a t H ouse s t an di ng a t th e bar of justice, ..rnil th at i t h a il d one a great deal to remove a ll agitation But it h a d h aras S e d t h e P rotestant mind ; and hen the Ri g ht H onoura bl e G en tl ema n (the Secretary or gthe rf parties them of not to throw the app le Ireland.--(Cheers.) The Covarnment bal thrown it, *and there it was lying they ha I presented a measure to Ireland for ivhich Ire land did not ask. The Irish called for the repeal of tin Subletting Act—for the repeal of the Vestry Act—and fin in amendment of the Tithe Laws; but not one voice was raised for Reform. He was wrong there, even one voice, that of die Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford raised in favour of Reforin as a means of promoting the dissolu tion of the Union.—(No, no.) The Hon. and Learned Member admitted, that to bring forward any measure ei hat nature with an unreformed Parliament would fail ; nut he was satisfied that with a reformed Parliament a measure for the repeal of the Union would not be imprac ticable.—(llear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Limerick had denied this. But he preferred the reasoning of the lion...and Learned Member for Waterford to that of th , 1111.111pnber for Limerick, .for he conceived that any at tempt to`promote a measure for the repeal of the Unite. with the present Parliament was quite idle, hut a re formed Parliament would lead to a dissolution of the Union as a necessary consequence. The Hon. Member fet Waterford felt that all his arguments would be confirmed by the Irish BM. The result of that measure would be. to place in the hands of the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford the power of nominating eighteen or nine teen Members of that House.—(L•rughter—no, no That would be the inevitable consequence. The giving tt the 101. renters the right of voting gave it to those wla had a chattel interest.—(Hear, hear, oh, oh.) He had had an opportunity of making himself acquainted with those people, and he was quite sure that this Bill would throw all the inhabitants of the towns into the hands of the agitators of Ireland, Men would be returned to that House who would be averse from all those inetitutians which the Members of that House respected, and on those said Members the Parliament could not rely for any co operation in preserving those institutions which English men venerated and were bound to preserve. If there were no other reason but this, on this alone he should be ready to give his support to tl:e motion of the .Gallant General, because he was anxious to preserve unimpaired the English -representation, as necessary to support and maintain the Protestant interest in Ireland, fur which lie was anxious, and which it was the duty of that House to support. Mr. O'CONNELL was not surprised that the Hon. and Learned Member should have been one of the first to in troduce religious altercation into this discussion; for he had' done theeame on the Catholic question. It was easy by such means to catch a ready cheer, and captivate a few votes 6ir the amendment. In all that concerned Ireland, nothing was more insulting than the air of patronage assum ed by some men, who had no other claim to superiority than a pompous diction and theatrical gestures,and who pretended to take the poor agitators under their protection. The Hon. and Learned Member for Drogheda, though he now sat for an Irish city, had been introduced into Parliament for one of the rotten boroughs—(llear)—and nobody better than the Hon. and Learned Member could defend them. —(Hear.) He was quite misinformed, and the House was misinformed, as to the effects of Reform in Ireland. The Hon. Member said that he (Mr. O'Connell) advocated Reform in Parliament as a means of obtaining a repeal of the Union. He had done no such thing.—(Hear.) Ile had advocated a Reform as a means of getting justice for Ireland.—(ol l ! oh.!) He repeated it, he required justice for Ireland, and he believed that there was a chance of ob taining that from a reformed Parliament.—(oh ! oh !) He had said theta Reform of Parliament would be bene ficial, but did the Anti-Unionia join him ? Did not Mr. George Ensor, who was one of the most intelligent and clever advocates of the repeal of the Union, call on the people of Ireland to oppose Reform, as likely to raise up obstacles to oppose the repeal of the Union ? This was the argument of George Ensor.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that he (Mr. O'Connell) kept up agitation in Ireland, but what was likely to be the effect of introducing the motion of the Gallant General ? nos,. who looked at the Irish newspapers knew that the agita tion of the Reform question had not been caused by the dis cussion of the Union question. Those who bad most opposed the repeal of the Union were more in favour of . Reform. The counties of Antrim, of Down, of Armagh, which were much opposed to the repeal of the Union, were the foremost in promoting Reform. He did not mean to follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman through all his statements, but he would ask, as the Hon. Mem ber had stated that it threatened the Monarchy, the Church, and the Peerage, if they all were founded on no mination her ughs ? Did the M•tnarchy depend on them? Could the Peerage only exist by trafficking in boroughs? Could the Church depend on a traffic or on a corrup tion ? C 'old the Peerage and the Monarchy depend on practices that were crimes in the eye of the law? The Pe rage of England hail a better foundation. Bat was it right to say of the Protestant Church that it Was founded not on " liars from Heaven, but blasts from Hell ?"_ (Oh, oh !)—lf such were the character of the Establish ment, would they tell the people that their Church was nourished and sustained by what they knew, to be corrup tion and crime? That description would make the Mo narchy, the Peerage, the Church, depend on very cob web ties. He knew, however, that they had a far better foundation. The Hon. Member for Kircudbright had spoken of the influence o f t h e Cr own bein g diminished ; but the influence which bad been restrained was that species of which it had been said that " it had increased, was increasing, and o ug ht to be diminished." It was only the corrupt and im p ro p er influence of th e Cro w n which had been dimi ni s hed, and that h a d been taken by the Peerage. That influence it was now necessary to diminish ; and that which had been taken from the Crown by the Peerage this Bill would diminish. and lle hadu r ro ei r ( rnerly spoken in that House of a so r did Oli garchy, which ha d usur ped the privileges of the people. But Noble Lords and Honourable Gentlemen had we ll defended the Aristocracy, by showing that usurped what t h e y had accidentally acquired of the property of the people they were willing to resign. His accusation had he. n well replied to, and a noble answer had been given by the splendid speech of an Hon. Gentleman who spoke in the early part of the evening. The proprietors, o f boroughs had been willing to resign their advantages. Would those who spoke of the safety of the Monarchy give up their emoluments ? Would those who dreaded the fall of the Church, persuade the Clergy to resign their plunder? He was afraid not; but if t h ey would, he would tell them that the Church of England would then have nothing to fear from a reformed Pediment but what it might have to dread from arguments founded in reason and Christian charity. The object of the Gallant Gene ral's motion was to prevent Ireland from getting her full proportion of Members. The Bill only prop ose d to a dd live Members to Ireland, and he could not conceive a topic better calculated to serve the cause of the anti-Unionists in Ireland, than the proposition to deprive her of her fair share of r epresentation. The speeches of the Hon. Metre b6rs for Aldltorough, for Brecon, and for Dysart, would admirably serve the cause of the anti-Unionists in Ireland. England, Scotland, and Wales, combined to prevent Ire land from getting her fair share of the representation. The Tories had print d the speech of th e r ef orm i ng Member for Preston, d the speech of the Gallant General would, on the same principle, be printed and circu lated through Ireland. There was no better topic than that by which to roitae the prejudices of the. Irish than to inform them that the English, Scotch, an d Welsh Members, had continued to oppose doing jus tice to Ireland. No Member was to be reduced from Eng land, Do Member was to be reduced from Scotland, but Ireland had lost two thirds of her Members at the Union Ireland was the most miserable, the tnost distressed country of the world, and what did that arise from but the injustice done to that country .—( No, no.) Sir s uffered from l os i ng h er dome' • Legislature. A{l she wanted was ce justi • • • and adequate protection by a Legisla ture of her own.—(Hear, hear.) Would they do justic e to Leland? W ou ld t h ey give her a full share of the lotion of the emp i re, so as to take from her the ler!s- ( necessity of demandin g a d omestic Legislature 5 --• H ear,hear.)— Eve!) , tongue demanded, every heart throbbed, for a domestic Legislature.—(No, no.) Would they give that to Leland ? Ireland had lost two-thirds of her Members, and now, wh et; it was proposed to restore part of them, tmong the persons who was fou nd to H oppose that was the Hon. Merna c'g The ee for Dr bode. n . and Gallant Ge nerd bad referred to i what he called the combination of eighty-five Irish Members, to compel the Ministers to agree to their terms. there was, indeal, a meeting of eighty-. five Irish Members, but only one was willing to pledge himself to resist giving Ireland; taxes to Mlnietees till they had don e something for Gallant Member Caul a combination. There were eighty. five Members ta ct; ih but only one was ready to egrae to the proposition. uelfwere spoken of as a club of mechanics who had combi tot . an increase of wages; and yet the Ilon.Metnber for Dr og heda supported the motion, and was well content in m aking his points against the Ministers and lauding his own religious liberality. As for the Hon. Member for Liverpool sistent i n hi s ho r , he allow e d th at h o was con i sfty to Ireland.: in fee history of the Parliam ent , he - never I ;r,ew as ioatance in which he bad not voted against the int6re-ts of Ireland. The I • . Irish Mem bers had been charged with o p posing all measures for the improvement of I I re an:l. There was a time when they note utterly subservient m•w h en • to the oeimstea, one their names e • ie never heard ofthe li s ts except in of the Go ver erne.nt • majorities • then of the Gallant' , ••• teneral's displeasure. Now that Irish Memb ers nee, it province, represented a nat i on , an d not a part of a p i t if u l ' was widely differeat. But be asked what measures for the improvement of Ireland they hail op posed ? Was it the introduction of the poor laws? • An. were they such a panacea—were they found to work we! in England ? No one would presume to say they had Therefore Ireland should not be reproached with not takin English poor laws, until they we. e so amended as to le rendered worthy of example. The Hon. Member fo. Liverpool had alsa sneered at the statements respecting th amount of population in Ireland. The authority to which they had referred were the official returns of 1821. An taese returns, he could tell the Hon. Member, were below t'ie real amount of population. In the county of May. done, it was a web-known fact that the names of 33,001 persons more were written down as having got relief that were numbered in the returns. Another subject invidious', urged was, that Ireland did not pay her due proportion o axation. This was a miserable fallacy.—(A liugh.) An. now they refused Ireland the paltry boon of five additional llemhe r s s a . y — t h( \°' n t ' Ireland n.) B nd a did no tt, he re t i pay he p r ea d ted ue , it pr was opor a lacy toproportion n fa n i taxation ; those who fancied she did not, were totally un acquainted with the real condition of Ireland. In the first place, the real amount of taxation paid by Ireland was far greater than it appeared. The taxes arising from the Customs were not placed to the credit of the Irish Trea :airy. Half a million of money wan paid as a dote or tea, in London, as hich was not placed to the credit of th. Irish Treasury—a great revenue was paid fee rum am' wine in Liverpool. Then there was all the money drawl from Ireland by the, absentee landlords, which was spent in England, and paid taxes in England, without a single sixpence being put to the credit of the Irish Treasury. Out fourth of the surface of Ireland helanged to men whose rents were punctually paid, although they never once set foot in the country.—(oh, oh.) Ireland, therefore, beyond any country on the face of the earth, needed protection, when one-fourth of the revenue of the country did not gu to the credit of the Irish Treasury, but was expended it England. Taxation had in this country been compared to the moisture which was taken indeed from the earth hy the sun's heat, hut returned to it again in gentle arid refresh ing dew ; but the scorching suit passed over Ireland, di-day ing up all the moisture, but no refreshing dew visited in it. return.—(Hear.) No Let them talk not of taxation-ite Ireland until they understood the burthens that she bare. In the appropriation of the additional numbers, he con tended that injustice had been done to Ireland. There were thirty-two counties in Ireland, of which there were only two with a population of less than 100,000. If, there fore, these Irish _counties had been English, they wool.: have had thirty additional Members for Ireland. There were twenty counties with a population of above 150,000. If they were English, they would have two addition d Members each ; and if the Union was not a name and a mockery, they would have additional Members. There were twelve counties in Leland that had a population above 200,000, four a population above 300,000, and one above 600,000, and yet not one additional Member was to be given to them. This was his case for Ireland. In this impartial proceeding was the real Anti-Union agitation,— when they said we will keep all for England, and then, it you please, you may come and ask us for more. Even the paltry addition of five was considerate,' by some Hon. Mem bers too great. He hoped, however, the Ministry would hare the firmness to persevere—the country was with them —lreland was with them. The amendment of the Hon. Member was got up, and the country would feel it, to ex cite English prejudices ; and Ireland would feel that it was Anti-Irish, and that it was meant to excite a religious feud. It was a base calumny to say that Catholic electors would prefer a Catholic candidate to a Protestant of higher quali fications. He referred to the elution of Mr. Leader, who was preferred by Catholic electors to Catholic candidates. He called on any man to prove that this was not the fact. Ile called on the Han. Member for Drogheda. who was the chief calumniator of Ireland at present.—(Lond cries of Order," and " Chair, chair.") The SPEAKER explained to the Hon. -Member, that Ids language and manner were both unjustifiable, and ex pressed his hope he would himself feel it. Mr. O'CONNELL citafessed that in the heat of debate he had been betrayed into expiessions wliich were not Parliamentary ; he was sorry for it, and begged to retract them. He contended, however, it was a gross misrepre sentation of the feeling of Ireland to say they were in fluenced by religious bigotry. Aed as to Catholic Mem bers, he would, in reply to the Hon. Member, say they were as deserving of confidence and as independ, nt as any Member in that House. They had won their civil rights, and they would wear them thu,—by, on all occasions, supporting the principles of civil and religious liberty. He would now conic back to the motion, and had further to remark, that there were fourteen towns in Ireland which, had they been in England, would have received the elective franchise. He declared, however, in conclu sion, he would support the Bill, because he conceived it would he useful to the people of England, and he was in fluenced by no feeling from rivalry. He caked on the House to reject the amendment—he. railed on the Gallant Genetal himself to fling it to the winds. But, said the Hon. and Learned Member, I am laughed have my answer. Mr. HUNT rose, and, after s-ine time, obtained a bean: ing. He said he had been charged with advocating this Bill as the fulcrum whereon to place his lever, to obtain universal suffrage and vote by ballot; but the fact was, the only objection he had to the Bill was, that it excluded him, and those who acted with him, from the hope of ever obtaining the objects they had in view. For the Ministers had, from the first moment, de clared the Bill to be final, and as the people bad In all parts of the kingdom petitioned for the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill, it they, or ho for! them—(A laugh)—should ask for more, the Government would sty, " No, this is not fair ; the lairgain was, that you should be satisfied with the measure we gave you, and you shall have no more." The Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright had told them, that in the reign of Edward the Sixth, all persons paying scot and lot had the light of voting. The meaning of scot is—(Tho Hon. Member then proceeded to give a definition of "scot and lot,' amidst shouts of laughter.) Now he, for one, if the franchise was, with the protection of the vote by ballot, given to all persons paying scot an I lot, 'would look for no more.----(Laughter.) The Hun. Member then alluded to his late journey to Manchester, and said he had re ceived a letter stating that hie answers were differently understood by the people from what he had intended. But when he stated that the flags of the several bodies of men that came to meet him were inscribi d with " Annual Parliaments".—" Vote by Ballot"—" Universal Suffrage" —and " Nu Corn Laws"—and whatever words he might have would he rict have been justified in describing their feelings as he had done ? He opposed, or rather exposed the Bill, bec;ause it did not come up !o any of the points he had advocated. If he . had been a general Re former, and never expressed an opinion berme, he might Ire called a captious man, if he were not satisfied with the Bill ; but as it was, if he acted otherwise, he would he false to the whole prof scions and principles of his ' life. It had been said to him by some Reformers ; " Why do you expose any part of the measure? Let us get this first and then we will get the rest after. Rot he did not consi der he would be actin ; ; hones'tly if he had described the measure as eine cf unmixed good, as the Hon. Member for Waterford did the Cathoie.question, and arterivards say give us the vote by ballot. He would %I:port the measure all the way through. The ?.r i lontiment of the Gallant General appeared to h;,r.; so preposterous, that he did not intend to hate yoieri at till upon it. He meant to leave the Huse without dividiag on it, and would have done zo i if he had not heard from the Goverwneot that they considered it a matter of great imp rtance; and he then resolved to give them hiS ;nimble support, as he would, were it simply 1 ., •.; the disfranchi-ement of one rotten borough.-r t .:Loud cries of " Adjou- •?" and Question.") Sir R. PEEL said that he Jose for the purpose of bringing this discussion to a conclusion, for it seemed to him that the attention of the House was exhausted, and that nothing further could be said upon the sathject— (llwr, bear.)----Delay, too, had this disadvantage, that it propagated itself ; and if it were re-carted to on this occa sion, would only be resorted to again. He had purposely avoided rising immediate 4 after the speech of the Hon, and Learned Illendaer for Waterford, „for he was afraid that he might catch the contagion of the spirit of that speech.— (He tr.)—lf he had caught it, he should only have done so from the tempornry excitement of the debate, for he had not been habituated, with respect to that lion. Mem ner's country, to entertain the feelings that had pervaded that speech with respect to this country. 1;e bad a deeper and a better reason for feeling a strong interest in the pros perity of Ireland than existed V A t.4. c .nxe c t. circumstance of the union of the two cotnat;;ica,. Six years of his early life had neen passed in lyO,a.TA, and he entertained feelings of kind ness towards it, and an interest in its prosperity, which he trusted would never expire. But where, Li) would ask--where was the man who did net f.,:a that the inte rests of this part of the emeir,J Mere involved in those of Ireland—(Hear, het,,,r)anli that any thing which im peded the proipeaity of Ireland must re-act upon England; mil that he who was sordid and mean tn . ough to hope to 4ain an undivided advantage far this country, would hope it in vain, for that one of 09 two countries could neve' procure a bert4t nt the expense of the other.—(Cheers.) While he listened to that speech, and to the sort of con cyst that had been excited with respect to Irish and English interests, he could not but draw a miancholy foreboding of what were likely to be the consequences of thtt subject A i rl "V.,3 1 . -..-., , -: ; , 1) 4 - A j 4 le r i ' .., it;• 1 • : ' Tatter , las n4,,,lt's discussion: , *.tt'ai it.seceisark ~.,..., hat thie question of ' Reflurrn should be mixed up who ' '..,- hat of the relative proportion s of the nutriber of Mem-, purify England neces et - mers? Why had the Government abandoned the Preserip a towards Ireland ? Could ice number, and proposed to establish a different proper • might be their ' feelings, in ion in the number oi Members from different parts of the bitish empire? Why was it to be taken for grant .d in be said in vindication i l ii. i : e ct a uii r n ; v( u o) rmil:ejßeeinseiatf,oia, Reform npahi::,. however attempt eoc e vfoeiru o,sdtsrnothing ni tgy to of that measure, and yet avoiding that other diffi..ii ty which was not incidental to the question of Reform ? Some the time of Charles li. there had not been any va u-i ution in the number of English representatives. Till this 11:11 hal been introduce.!, thera had not been a coniplaint ;lade on the subject of the relative number of Members 'or Eureland, Serelind, and Ireland. But this Bill, or if it was rot carried, he feared even the bare proposition of it wools! introduce these complaints; for the Bill was a tratoitoua assumption of their existence. It was not nerely in Ireland, but in every county and town in Eng. land, that this Bill would be thus discussed ; and the aeuiple would ask whether the principle upon which it af 'iteted to go, had been properly applied. If, as the Hon. Member supposed, the nurnb_T of Members was an indi •ation of the prosperity of the country, why was not Dug land entitled to ask for an increase in the number, to be sent to Parliament ; why was not England entitled to ask it-, not only for herself, with her increased manufacturing; and cominerci il wealth, but with all her enormous colonies, acquired since the last settlement of the number of repre sentatives, and containing one hundred millions of people ! At least England was as much entitled to make the de mand as either Scotland or Ireland. He regretted that this subject had been introduced, that the Government had proposed any departure from the proposition which the law had established and custom sanctified ; and he feared that what he said would be the consequence of the intro duction of such a topic. At the same time, if it was shown that the basis of the Union was founded on a cal /dilation not fair, es betwu en 'ille"two countries, though there was no other consideration for the change, he should • be induced to consent to the Increase for Ireland with out a corresponding increase for England, though he would not consent to the same increase in England, without a similar increase for Ireland. He saw, how ever, no reason the adding to the number of the Mein br rs for Ireland. The Government had at one time said, di it they did not consider the question of number to in volve the question of the Bill itself, but that if the sense of that House was in favour of the maintenance of the present number, they would Agree to the opinion, and 'ring in aBiI in accordance with it. Such at least had be n his understanding of the Noble Lord's statement, end he had asked the Noble Lord if that understanding was right, and the Noble Lord answered in the affirmative. Yet, after all this, the fate of the Bill was now nude to depend on the princip'e ;of the measure now brought for-. ward. He coot - mg:red himself hostile to the Bill, but he exercised a fair hostility to it.—(Ch.ers.) He was pre pared to persevere in a fair and direct opposition to the Bill —( Immense cheering ) There had been a talk of conelaves.—(llear, hear.) There riot only had been a talk al out it, but it had actually been a charge against them, and a charge of enormoui delinquency, that the party who opposed the Bill had met together to consider the means of defeating it.—(Cheers.) This was a strange charge, and if the present Ministry could direct the course which their opponents should pursue, he would predict that they would be a much more fortunate Ministry than any that had preceded them—(Cheers and laughter)—but if they could do so, it would he fatal to the free: discussions of the House of Co ninons.—(Cheers.) But it had been alga charged aguin•t them, that those who composed the late Ministry had formed a "strange union" with those who had voted against them Oa a particular question. Wh„t was it a charge against them that they had united with the Anti-Catholics ; and was it meant that they should say to these gentlemen, there is an old grudge be tween us which nutat tet be kept alive.---<Hear, hear.) Surely it was not meant that they should act on such rules of conduct.—(hear, 'hear.) If, however, it was meant fo r the some pol-pose r o p ti o i seermeare to according whichwith they his that they should d o so , h e b egge d leave to ;siert his oppo sition to the p r i nc i p l e, t h at men were not to unite toge ther were opposed. It h a d b een as k ed as b y he had not brought forward of p defeatinglan of Reforma measure notions upon the subject.—(Hear.) He did not intro% I to do any such thing—(Heat) —and for this among other reasons, he should be taunted with framing a Bill as a means, and with the view of getting baA.to of f ice.—. (Hear, hear.) lie assure I them most sincerely, that the charge would be most unfounded ; for so much diet he de-• precate these changes of Administration, and so highly in- Cinivenient did te deem these changes, that he had stated some time since there would be nothing more gratifying to him than to I e able.to support the Ministry in some mo derate change of the existing system.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord opposite bad said that there were but two au thorities on this subject—Earl Grey and the Duke of WO lingtom Certainly, after that declaration, he ought to be convinced that there was not an end of respect for the At istocracy ; Lint he ought to be the more especially con vinced of that fact when he was further told that between theta two authorities he hael nothing to s-house. But if it were true there were but these two opinions, he might even take that of Lord Grey; and he would ask what ;vas that Noble Lord's opinion at the end of last year ? He was happy to take that oppot tunity of de claring that no one had a higher opinion of the Noble Lord than himself, for none more sincerely esteemed that Noble Lord's ability and integrity ; but what had that Noble Lord said at the close of the last year? Why, , that the measure of Reform was moderate—in fact, that it was much more moderate than the present measure could pos sibly pretend to be. The Lard Chancellor, too, had then held the saute language. Me did not quote these opinions of those noble persons merely for the purpose of showing their inconsistencies, as the Noble Lord opposite haul sierned to imagine. His own speeches, indeed, had been quoted in that manner, so that he seldom saw an Hon. Gentle man rising on the opposite side of the House to on this question, but his mind vacillated between the vanity of having his speeches quoted and the fear of being taunter' with inconsistency iii what ha had written.—(Hear, and 'aughter.) . In fact, in most instances when Hon. Gen demen on the opposito.side rose to speak, he (Sir R. Peel) saw two volumes of the Parliamentary Debates open, the passages marked down, and the volumes were handed up to the Hon. Member before he began.—(Laughter.) He believed the speech he had delivered on the Catholic ques tion was the foundation of many remarks in speeches trade in the course of the present debate. There was, however, a great difference between the Catholic question and the Reform Bill. In the former, the matter admitted of a 6nal settlement ; it was a restitution of the Constitution, not a change of it; but the Reform Bill admitted of no such settlement, and was a complete change of 'the Con stitution. - With respect, 'too, to the. forty-shilling free holders, of whom so much had been said, he must ob 'wive that the most ample compensation bad been granted. The forty-shilling Catholic freeholders were compensated by their 'establishment upon a footing of equality with the r .st of their fellow-citizens, while the Protestants received by the change the assurance that they would not again be overwhelmed by the influx of Catholic voters.—(Hear, hear, no, no. )—But be repeated once more, that if he had the same pro .f of necessity, the same proof that the change of the nature of English voting was as requisite as the change had been in Ireland, he should not hesitate to make the sacrifice. As, however, he had strong doubts as to the policy of the measure, lie could not consent to this measure of confi-cation. lie did not see tither - that this measure equally balanced the different interests it affected. The Ministers proposed to give an undue proportion of influence to the metrop ;his. By the present Bill they gave no less than sixteen Members to London and its envirous. [hese Members, who would always be on the spot, who could always consult their constituents, and support them selves by their opinions, would exercise in that House a power which no other sixteen Members in it could possess. —(Hear, hear.)—This arrangement was et least mafor , runate. They adopted the pernicious example of France, .teal gave to London that species of iuutluenese which was Si) unjustly and perniciously exercised in Paris.--a(llear, hear, hear.) Ile was opposed to the Bill on general prin ciples. One of these was the uniform right of voting it attempted to establish. All Aristocratic - influence ..., was attempted to he destroyed, while all Democratic influence was carefully retained, The former object was ' l attained by the extinction of the small boroughs. The latter was the whole aim and scope of the Bill. The Noble Lord opposite had last night declared that he did not vish to destroy the influence of the peerage---that, in fact, he wised it to continue ; and yet it was a charge against him (Sir Robert Peok4that be exercised an influence its famworth. The onlY influence lie exercised was that which the Nob'e Lord had wisberl to see still enjoyed by i ~ he tiDukes of Devonshire and B: 2 (lf ird.-..-( Hear, yes", tear, from all sides.l Would the Noble Lord deny the hi Ls ., ..l ,l or would the Learned Lord Advocate, who .now t e n. ti„,, . 0 loudly, say . to whit lie, owed hi-, present seat in c„ the !louse, but to the influence exercised by a a .a. g.ai bear, hear,) , H• . I morough of Melton ?—(Hear, b maintained ; not o find that such an influence would. Peer, ._ ... e _ E _____,.,_ influence it was, and time influence njm otP without Earl Firzwilliaurs who.conid ron _ , exerci se 1.1 Alaimo was How re mit, iolluence over there . . t o preirenr, three years hence, -.tined, hut whist was .