The Sun. — London, England, 1827-02-13 00:00:00

tend in 1134, with that corps which disembarked at Lisbon in 1826 ? These were the last words I heard from the lips of his Royal Highness. The Duke of Yotk had himself commanded a British Array in Holland before he was raised to the office of Com mander-in-Chief, and when he came to it, he declared that nu other Officer who might-hereafter command on foreign service should be subjected to the same disadvantages that he laboured under...--(Hear,h esee )...../io other but a man of professional experience could trace the progressive steps by which this disci pline and efficiency had been effected in the- British army. Tc do so it would be necessary to detail the several rules which have been adopted and watched over with great attention, in order to 1 the correction of abuses and the supply of many defects in the British Army ; the many regulations by which the welfare and comfort of the soldier in the subordinate ranks of the Army were secured with respect to his religious instruction, his duties on foreign ser vice, the education of his children, and the economy of his regi mental intercourse. To give effect to these would require profes sional knowledge ; but I do not think a lengthened allusion to them necessary, I attribute the general effect less to the operation of particular rules than to the influence of the more large and ex tended system which he adopted towards the troops. It is in the example which the Royal Duke set to the Officers in his own person, of gentlemanly and courteous attention to the wants of the meanest soldier—in the stimulus which such an example • leave them to do their duty—in the conviction which he made every. man feel, that however low his station, justice would be ,dotie, and protection afforded him against oppression. In these particulars, I say, and in these effects, are to be found the manses of the Army being made that wonderful ma chine which, by regularity of movement, and submis sive obedience to authority, retains the energy which ever distinguishes the soldier of a free State from the tools of a despot...=-.(1-1ear.) In the thirty years that the Duke of York tilled the situation of Commander-in-Chief—a long period, comprising, Y believe, 10,000 days. Ido not exaggerate when I 'say, that there was not one of them which he passed without de , szoting some part of it to the performance of his public duty.— Never was there a letter received at the office over which he pre 'a'ided, without being noticed, if it *as susceptible of an answer.— If it contained a signature, the reply was, without delay, trans mitted to the proper address. And it ought to be stated, to the teanntieef the deceased Duke, that the answer so sent was not a 'Mere dry, official communication, referring the party to some :ntherdepartment, but that, upon every occasion, his Royal High meal showed an anxious desire to facilitate the despatch of business, ialfhongh it might not be within his own department.—(Hear.)— If the letter had no signature, but preferred a complaint, it was not necessarily rejected because it was anonymous, but immediate inquiry was made to ascertain whether the particular charge was well or ill-founded. And upon every occasion of promotion in the Army, I think I can appeal with confidence to the House it *elf, Whether there has not been auniversal wish here to do justice "io the strict impartiality with which he discharged that most im portant part of his duty ; and I address myself more particularly to 'the Hen. Gentlemen opposite, whether they had had reason to 'cornpiain, that in any case, a man's political sentiments presented etly bar to his receiving the reward of his merit in the Army.— Olear.l-4 tun sure they will agree with me, that no objections were made to a man's promotion from aeything like personal hostility, and that his Royal Highness always showed an earnest disposition to forget and overlook all associations es connected with any claimant for reward, other than his actual meritt ea- demerits. But, Sir, I do not conceive this to be his highest merit. In th, administration of this high office, 'tht exalted individual has not merely to guard against the influence of personal prepossession, but he has to 7xeteise a reasonably jealous apathy with respect to the fame of e.Hividuals.; for, if he suffers himself to be dazzled too much by The eeiat of military glory derived from actual service, he may he tempted to overlook altogether those others who, deprived of the opportunities of distinguishing themselves, are panting in fo reign countries for such opportunities. Upon all the occasions which the Duke of York had to bestow promotion, he acted with impartial justice to all—not only to those who had merited dis tinction by their valour, but also to those who had shown a dis position, but had not had the means of distinguishing themselves; and theheet proof which I can give you of his strict impartiality is, to recite one or two facts. In 1825, when an augmentation of the army took place, no Lieutenant, with a solitary exception, was promoted who had not entitled himself by service. From 1810, I can state confidently that no favour was shown to any in dividual, with the single exception which I have stated, and that was a case which can reflect no dishonour on the illustrious de ceased. One Lieutenant, whose standing was only from 1814. had been promoted, but it was under these circumstances :—At the battle of Waterloo this officer, though a subaltern, became in command of his regiment, all his senior officers having been killed upon the field. This was the only one promoted who was not of the required standing ; and could it be said that it was a case unworthy of notice ?—(Hear.)—With respect to the En signs the same impartiality was shown. In 1825 twenty-two Captains received Majorities without purchase. The grant of a 'commission without purchase affords a great opportunity of show ing personal favour, but it could not be charged in a single one of these instarets. Of the twenty-two Captains who received Majori t'ies wi:nout purchase in 1825, their average service was twenty si: years--and of these seventeen were spent in their particular re kiment. Sixteen Majors were promoted to the rank of Lieutenant- Colonel without purchase, whose average service was twenty-eight years, fifteen of which they had spent in their own regiments.— There never was an instance in which an officer had been promoted 'without 'purchase over the head of his senior, unless where this letter, by some misconduct, had forfeited his claim to priority ; end where the promotion was by purchase the officers of the same ktgiment were first invariably consulted. The first commissions were granted without purchase in 1825, and three-fourths of them were given to the eons and relations of Officers in the Army and Navy—to young men who had no other claim than that derived from the services of those who had gone before them. I thought it right, Sir, to state these facts, because the simple truth is the highest honour to the memory of the deceased buke. That his Royal Highness possessed singular advan tages for his high situation was beyond doubt. In the first place, having been in the Army forty-six years, of which he was thirty-two Commander-in-Chief, he had opportunities of watch ing over the progress of a vast portion of the officers. Many of their persons, and the length of their services, were known to him, and be could detail the circumstances under which their wounds were received. I need not tell the House that it was no small consolation to the soldier to know that there is an eye which constantly watches his progress, notes his services, and gives him credit for his merits, for such a sense must greatly lessen his pain and enhance his exertions. The service has derived many and Most substantial advantages from his administration ; but perhaps, of all, that is the most substantial which gives the soldier the con viction, and consequently the satisfaction and confidence, that his merit, if he has any, will not be overlooked.—(Hear think, therefore, that the House will be disposed to mix up with its ex pression of condolence upon this occasion, a repetition of that sense of his Royal Highness's services which it has made more than once before. Ido not know that it is necessary to offer any additional observation to induce the House to acquiesce in the proposal for this Address. Some persons may think that all reference to personal qualities, upon occasions like this is unnecessary, but no man can read the history of - the monarchy of this and other countries without acknow ledging how far the personal character of the Sovereign influences the manners of the age, and how much they strengthen the claims of Royalty upon the people. It would be difficult to find an in - stance in which there had not been exhibited, not only by the Duke of York, but by every member of his illustrious family, the warmest• dispesition to ptomote every charitable object, to enter into every benevolent enterprise, and to contribute, not only by their money, bat by their time, to the completion of these pur poses...4Hesse)...-We might all benefit by the example of these il- Instrietwawarsons. 'Every one knows how painful it is, after a long and-close applicatioq to business, to be called upon to a ttend these M eet i ngs; but I ask any one who has ever had occasion to apply to the Duke of York in that way, whether they did not re ceive a ready answer, and whether he did not comply with a cheerfulness too cordial to be put on, and which could only flow from an in nate goodness of heart ?—(Hear, hear. ).—Sir, I shall here close the few observations with which I thought it necessary to introduce this addreitto the throne. I trust that I have ad hered to the Intentions mrhich 1 expressed, of confining myself , strictly to the truth, awl o tas have abstained from every exag geration unsuited to the escoasiets. or to the character of him we mourn—l- have-••"etUdiMISIY avoided ever y thin g which • have the e ff ect - of would or Pronloting.angsy feeling, una nimity so desirable cua this occasion, , abstain marr from every the topic which would intake any ma, refuse.ine his ac quies ce nce e in y this vote en the one hand ; and en the other, I disdain to take a paltry advantage of the sentiments kn own to b e entertained by the deceased Duke, with a view to enhancin g his memory with the admirers of, and advocates for such sentiments.—(Heari)—l am confident, that without reference to his political sentiments, the whole of this House will concur in this Address, which ex presses. no other feeling than that of sincere lamentation for the loss of an illustrious Prince, who administered a high commi s _ Sion with: great attention, great justice, great forbearance, and singular.address ; who had improved the discipline, e n d ra i sed the character of the Army, and whose name will therefore be as.. sociatedswith the history of the brilliant successes of our Army to the end of time.--(Hear, hear !)—Sir, I believe no man, whate v er his political sentiments may be, will refuse to partici- pate in the feelings of those who had been admitted to a more intimate acquaintance with the Royal Duke, and I feel confi dent that this House will concur in the sympathy which his Ma jesty feels for the loss of one, who, in his dying momenta, con soled himself with the reflection, that purest and best of consola tions, that in the course of a long and varied intercourse with society, he had never abandoned a friend, or resented an injury ! (Hear, hear !)—The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved the Ad dress, which expressed the concurrence of the House in the uni versal regret manifested by the country for the loss of his Ma jesty's beloved brother, the Duke of York; at the same time that they took the opportunity of publicly testifying to the great bene fits which he had conferred upon the army, by his attention and general administration, whilst in the situation of Commander-in- Chief. The Address having been moved and seconded, Mr. BROUGHAM said that he did not rise to touch upon any ground which had been avoided by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and indeed by the terms of this Address he was precluded from travelling out of it. Agreeing, as he did, in the opinions expressed of the Royal Duke's impartiality in the exer cise of his office, he should only add, that he thought it reflected the highest credit upon him, when having so long a time enjoyed the disposal of places, he never suffered political considerations— (hear)—by which he meant party questions—to interfere with the disposal of that patronage ; that he never showed any personal asperity towards any individual, because of his particular way of thinking, or suffered his sentiments to cast a shade across his progress.—(Hear.)—The deceased Duke was known to entertain very strong sentiments (he would call them prejudices) upon some subjects ; but it was the best test of his sincerely and ho nestly entertaining these opinions ; that he separated, as much as possible, the individual from his political sentiments, and never behaved with asperity towards any individual.—(Hear.) Sir ROBERT WILSON regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman, in proposing this Address, had not stated to the House more particularly the means by which the Duke of York had caused so salutary a revolution in the army. In 1791, the inefficiency, as to the public interests, was carried to an incredible degree of inattention to the means of enabling men to discharge their duty in the army. Under the Royal Duke's administration great changes were soon effected, but it was to be regretted that it was not stated that this discipline was maintained, not by severity, or by increasing the penal laws of the army, but by diminishing corporal punishment, which existed to such a degree, as to be ut terly disgraceful. This change in itself was a valuable legacy, which he had bequeathed, and he (Sir R.) hoped the House would always bear in mind that it was owing entirely to his general kindness and forbearance. If cases did occur, in which parties might have thought that his Royal Highness's view of their case was more harsh than they had reason to expect, whilst they lamented the error of his judgment, no candid man ever im pugned his motives.—(Hear.) An Hon. Member under the gallery (whose name we could not learn) also bore testimony to the benevolence of the Duke of York, and to his conduct as Commander-in-Chief. The address was then agreed to, and ordered to be presented by such members of the House as are of the Privy Council. SUPPLY. Sir GEORGE CLERK moved that the House should resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to his Majesty for the present year, and that the navy estimates be referred to the same committee. Mr. HUAIE, before the Speaker left the chair wished, seeing the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, to ask him whether this was not a proper occasion for the Right Hon. Gentleman to state what was his intention with respect to the expenditure of the year. He, (Mr. Hu►ne) thought, that before the House was called upon to vote on this subject, they ought not only to know what was proposed as the amount of expenditure, but also the income of the past year, that they might judge of the scale on which the estimates should be formed. He wished to know whether the Portuguese expedition had added to the amount of the estimates. He wished it to he understood that that there was no part of the country's establish ments in which he wished less to see any reduction than in the navy ; but he wished also that one general accurate view of the proposed expenditure should be laid upon the table before the House was called upon to vote at all. He took this opportunity also of asking particularly, whether the Navy estimates for the present year were to be on exactly the same scale as those for the last, or whether they were to be increased? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that any answer which he could make to the inquiries of the Hon. Member must of necessity be unsatisfactory, unless ac companied with a full discussion of all the points involved in it. As he was not prepared to enter upon those at this moment, he could only pursue that course which he had adopted in antecedent years. He must also be permitted to remark, that he thought at the present moment the state of the navy was an object of so great importance, that no obstacle ought to be placed in the way of the vote. At no distant period he should undoubtedly be in a situa tion to make the fullest statement on this subject, and he trusted the House would not think that it was from any unwillingness on his part to meet the discussion that he now declined to let it interfere with the present vote, but because he thought that no thing should stop the current course of so important a branch of the national strength as the Navy. _ _ Colonel DAVIES shortly after the meeting of Parliament, had given notice of a motion to refer all the estimates to a Committee above stairs. Sir JOSEPH YORKE apprehended that His Majesty's Ministers were acquainted with the state of the revenue, and that therefore they would not propose any estimates which the resources of the nation would not enable them to meet. Mr. MABERLY thought his Hon. Friend, the member for Montrose, had done no more than his duty in the suggestion he had just made. At present no man could know what was the state of the revenue but from the accounts which had appeared in the public newspapers. Mr. HUME replied. He knew that he could not now prevent the Speaker's leaving the chair, but he should take the earliest opportunity that might present itself of ascertain ing the sense of the house on this subject. _ _ Mr. CALCRAFT thought' there was a great deal in Mr. Hume's objection, but considering the state of the country, he could not consent that any obstacle should be put in the way of the vote for the navy estimates. Every body knew how much depended on the navy, and that when the country was involved iu war, notwithstanding the reliance which we placed on the army, it was the navy that must fight us through. The praises which had been so jestly bestowed on his late Royal Highness the Duke of York, reminded him that the system of regularity and fairness of promotion in the army which had been put in practice by him, was one of the most honourable parts of his character. He wished to recommend to the persons who had the direction of the interests of the navy, the adoption of a similar system. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN would detain the House only one moment on the subject of the promotion of officers in the navy. It was true, as the Honourable Member for Ware ham had stated, that much of what appeared to be a hardship, was, in fact, owing to a different system prevailing from that ' which was adopted in the army respecting commissions. To alter this was not so easy as it might seem to be, but he could assure the Honourable Gentleman and the House, that much had been, and that as much more as was possible would be, done in this respect. The House then went into the Committee, Sir Alexander Grant in the chair. Sir GEORGE CLERK, in explaining the sub ject of the present vote to, the House, should confine himself to the differences between it and that of last year There was a dif ference of 10,0001. in the total amount. The number of seamen was exactly the same as it was last year, and no reduction could be expected when it was considered, that long ago as great a re duction had been made as was compatible with the public service. The cessation of hostilities in the West Indies, and the more settled state of the Governments in South America, would have justified the Government in reducing the numbers, but that other events which had happened reeently rendered the necessity for keeping up the naval force just as great as ever. In every other place the same reasons as before existed for maintaining the naval establish ment. The state of Greece required as great or a greater force in the Levant as before, and if any objection could be urged against the estimates as respected this part of the establishment, it would be that the force was too small rather than too large. The wages were precisely the same, but a considerable diminution had taken place in the victualling charges. The Board had been enabled to effect this diminution by sending out provisions, instead of buying them through the bands of agents, and thus procured better as well as cheaper provisions; but some increase bad beenconsequently occasioned in the transport service. The diminution of the half-pay charges had amounted to 15,000/., but that for widows' pen sions had increased considerably. In the other departments there had been no change, and consequently no diminution.— The charge for new works was 36,000/. ; and respecting this, it was necessary for him to explain that some of them had not been contemplated when the vote of last year was propos e d. The finishing, repairing, and enlarging the Woolwich dock-yard, and the Woolwich basin, which had also been much repaired and enlarg e d, h a d b e en the principal items in this charge. A sum of 8,0001. had been expended in the erection of Pour-mills at Dept ford. This had been done in consequence of some serious born plaints having been made against the contractors for the bad quality of au article which was of the greatest comfort to seamen. In the course of the last year they had been enabled to obtain an excellent article, and the greatest benefit had been experienced by this improved manufactory of flour, for which reasons he trusted the expence of erecting the mills would not be objected to. The Marine Infirmary and Hospital at Chatham had cost 7,0001., and although this building seemed larger than was necessary, it must be remembered that it enabled the hoard to do away with the hospital ship, and reduce the medical staff to 4,0001., by which a saving of 1,000/. was effected. The transport-service cost 20,000/. In the last year they had been found to be inefficient, and an enlargement of the establishment had therefore been found necessary. The Hon. Baronet then concluded by moving a vote of 1,579,500/. for the charges of wages and victuals for 30,000 men, including 9,000 royal marines, to serve in his Majesty's fleet for the year 1827. Mr. HUME said, that it was really time to confine this vote within reasonable limits. It was given as a reason that no reduction bad taken place in the number of men this year, that our expedition to Portugal had interfered to preVent such reduc tion. But if we were to right the wrongs of other countries at the expense of this, the number of men which the Committee were now called upon to vote, would in a very short time be in sufficient for the purpose. The House ought to pause a little, and consider whether an expense of 6,000,0001. per annum was not too much to pay to support Portugal and preserve the faith of treaties. If this country had not a redundant military force, our Ministers would never have ventured to take the rash step which they lately thought proper to adopt. A superabundant army tended always to encourage a nation to go to war. Where was the necessity either for our keeping up an undiminished navy, when it was notorious that if the fleets of all the world were arrayed against mg, 500 sail could net be produced to compete with our naval strength ? Mr. IVIAi3ERLEY having voted with Ministers for a large supply of troops for the serice of Portugal, could not with consistency vote against the supply which was now proposed. He thought that the present was no time to talk of reductions either in the army or navy, and he felt the necessity of upholding those establishments the more, when he reflected on the angry threats which America had thought proper to promulgate in the late speech of her President.—(Hear, hear.) Sir J. YORKE said, that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen and himself were friendly to the same measures, and only differed in their means of adopting them. The Honourable Member wanted to cut down our naval establishment, but he could not agree with him in thinking that by husbanding our resources now, we could employ them to a better puilsose when occasion re acquired. On the contrary, he was firmly of opinion, that our best means of giving any country that might oppose us a black eve, was to show our capability to inflict it.—(A laugh.) —He called upon the House to look at what America was in 1783, and what she is in 1827, and then the question would natu rally occur whether it were wise or safe to reduce a single frigate—whether it were politic to cut off a single little finger from the body of the state.—(Hear, hear.)—What would Mem bers say if the Right Hon. the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had come down to the house and said, " Upon my soul, gen tlemen, every thing has gone wrong with us, we have neither ships nor soldiers to go to war."--(Laughter.)—lnstead of which, every measure of the Right Hon, Gentleman had been crowned with remarkable success, a Jesuit which was mainly to be attributed to the means which we possessed of assuming a hostile position. He remembered the speech of the Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Hume) when it was proposed to assist Portugal. With part of that speech he could not help agreeing ; but when the Hon. Member spoke about the danger of going to war, the Right Hon. the Secretary for Foreign Affairs used an unanswerable ar gument—" Here's a treaty, is it to be kept or broken ?" and what was the result? Had not the Right Hon. Gentleman, in consequence of the step which we adopted with regard to Portu gal, the power of saying to the Ministers of France—" Well, Gentlemen, if you evacuate Spain, I have no hesitation in saying we will evacuate Portugal." He (Sir J. Yorke) hoped he would not be considered partial when he said, that one of the Right Hon. Secretary's best assistants in the Cabinet was his Rt. Hon. relative the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose loss would be generally felt, should the motions of the Hon. Member for Aber deen be the means of getting him out of that House.—(Laughter.) —lndeed, it would hardly be credited how much deference was paid to the opinions of the Hon. Member by his Right Hon. re lative; for if he (Sir J. Yorke) were to go to him for the pur pose of forwarding a job, the answer which his Right Hon. rela t;ve would make would be, "My good Sir, it is quite out of the question; why, what would Hume and the economists say?"— (Laughter. ) Mr. HUME would he sorry that the idea should be entertained that he wished to cripple the resources of the coun try, at the same time he could not but observe, in reply to an observation of the Gallant Admiral, that the readiness to give a black eye often led to mischief. When a man had a sword at his command, it was natural for him to get into a quarrel : whereas, if he were without the means, of doing mischief,_ it was more than probable that no quarrel would ensue. With respect to the Ame rican President's Message, he saw no'likelihood of a quarrel arising in consequence of that document, and he thought that this coun try would he highly censurable if any misunderstanding with America arose out of the question to which the Message referred. The vote was then proposed and carried. On the motion for a vote of 955,5001. for the wages of 30,000 men, at 2/. 9s. per man a-month, Mr. HUME referred to the alarm which was raised on the river, when the expedition to Portugal was ordered. He took occasion to deprecate the system of impressment as one which gave rise to considerable abuse, and he suggested that some mode s t u p l c b t e i c a e d p opted r su e t d o inrem t heednya vtyh of evil. ffl og g n H g e also men without com m commented t c e don Court martial, u rt_ martial, and he animadverted on other practices of the service which he described as being equally culpable. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that it was the earnest desire of the Board of Admiralty to act upon every suggestion which they conceived would tend to the benefit of the service over which they presided. If a measure were proposed to increase the pay of the men employed in the navy, it would cer tainly meet with due and proper attention, but he cautioned the House not to propose any measure that could not be carried into . full and complete effect. With respect to the system of inpress ment, it was one which this country could not with safety give up, although he was willing to admit that it might be modified. Sir J. YORKE thought it was the duty of the house to search and probe the system of navy impressment. Slr GEORGE COCKBURN complained that the gallant Admiral had misconceived his meaning. He begged to be understood that he rather courted than shunned the ques t tion of naval impressments. Mr. SYKES said, that it was unworthy of those who at present administered the naval affairs to countenance the system of impressment. He stated that one of the greatest hard ships to which sailors were subject was the length of time they were kept on ship-board, without being allowed to go on shore. But how much harder was the lot of those poor fellows :who, after returning from a long and dreary cruise, expecting to share for a time the comforts of that home from which they so long had been estranged, were seized by a press-gang the moment of their landing, and consigned to serve for a period of six or seven years, as had been the case in more than one instance that had come to his (Mr. Sykes's) knowledge. Sir GEORGE CLERK observed, that in time of peace it was perfectly unnecessary to resort to impressment, but when any great national emergency arose, when decision and celerity were required, there was no other means to man vessels than by adopting the system of impressment. Sir EDWARD OWEN conceived that it was wrong to attach odium to a practice which might not only be use ful hut absolutely necessary. Much had been said on the subject of impressment, but the country should take care how it let go one rope of its safety before it caught at another. He admitted that, during the last war, men were kept abroad on board ships much longer than could be desired. From the length of the war that could not have been well avoided, but it was not likely to occur again. As to the liberty given to the men to go on shore, it was, in come climates, a very pernicious practice, particularly attended with the loss o f one-t hi r d o f the men to whom such per in the West Indies, wh ere pe rm ission to go on shore was generally mission was granted. With respect to the charge of wanton cruelty, he would only, as a Member of the navy, express a hope, that when such charges were made, particular instances would be brought forward instead of general imputations affect. ing the whole service. Mr. HUME could have given many instances, and bad done so when the subject was last bef ore the House. One c ase he would state—that of a ship, with a crew of 112 men, in which SG were flogged within 12 months, and the officer who com manded was remov e d i n conse quence. An Hon. Member (whose na me we did not hear) observed that the discussions in that House hai been productive of ghat amelioration in the mode of treating seamen. With re spect to the system of impressment, he thought it was a disgrace to a country professing to have a free constitution. It was one which he thought deserved the most serious investigation, in order to find some safe mode of dispensing with it. The motion was now put and carried. The next resolution was that a sum not exceeding 624,000/. be grated for victualling the Navy. Mr. HUME wished for some explanation as to the extent to which Government intended to carry on the manufacture of articles to be supplied for the use of the navy. He believed it would be found that those articles could be had much cheaper (if competition were allowed) than they could he manufactured by Government. He perceived that there were mills for grinding corn at Portsmouth and Plymouth, and others intended elsewhere. He wished to know how far the system was to be extended ? Sir G. CLERK observed, that if the article manu factured proved to be of a better quality than that which could be obtained by contract, a slight difference in the price ought to be no object ; but the fact was, that at the mills at Portsmouth and Plymouth, the flour was produced cheaper and better than it could be obtained by contract. The adulteration of flour intended for the use of the navy had been caried to so great an extent, that it became necessary that Government should take the grinding of it into their own hands. In the last year, not less than 6,000 bags of flour were found to be adulterated, either by a mixture of fo-. reign ingredients, or by using wheat of an inferior quality ; and as it was impossible that the examining officers could inspect every sack, it was fair to suppose that many others had escaped detection.— The Government, to prevent such fraud in future, determined to gried their own corn, and in addition to the mills at Portsmouth and Plymouth, they were to have an extensive one at Deptford, which would thus afford the means of grinding all the flour and biscuit-meal required for the navy. Mr. HUME asked whether any of the contractors sending such flour could not be prosecuted ? Sir GEORGE CLERK replied that the adulte rated flour was returned to them, and if they supplied a quantity of good flour sufficient to fulfil their contract, he did not think they could be prosecuted. Mr. HUME thought that if their names were pub lished to the world it would have the effect of preventing others from practising similar frauds. Sir J. YORKE wished to know why part of the salary of the Astronomer Royal was in the Navy Estimates, and part in the Civil List. He also wished to know why the two Medical Commissioners of the Navy Board had 2001. a year more than their brother Commissioners. Here were the gentlemen of the pill who got more than those of the multiplication table, who had many heavy and important calculations to make. Sir GEORGE CLERK said, that before the observatory at Greenwich came under the authority of the Admi ralty the salary of the Astronomer Royal was paid from the Civil List, and afterwards (as we understood) some was added in the Navy Estimates. As to the Medical Commissioners, they had many important duties to perform. They were obliged to attend the Admiralty constantly ; besides they had to examine Officers who applied for pensions. At the Transport Board, where they were before, they had 1,000/. a year, and, in consequence of this and their severe duties, it was thought right to add the 2001. a year to each. Mr. D. W. HARVEY wished to know on what data the large estimate for law expences was made. Though there was a standing counsel at the Admiralty, with, he believed, a sa lary of 600/. a year, he found that briefs were given to King's counsel in many cases, where they had nothing else to do but re ceive their fees. Sir GEORGE CLERK said, the estimates for this .. .year were in this respect founded on the same data as in the other items—namely, the expences of the last year. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN wished to have an answer to the question as to the unnecessary expenditure to King's couMnser.l. CROKER said, that not more than three counsel were retained on each circuit; and it was not the fact, that in every case briefs were given to King's counsel. The resolution was then put, and carried. The next resolution was, that a sum not exceeding 184,107/. I Is. 7d. be granted for the salaries of officers and clerks in the Admiralty, Navy Pay, and Victualling-offices. Mr. HUME thought there were too many on the several boards, and that the number might be reduced. After a few words from Sir G. CLERK and Sir B. Meanie, the motion was put and carried. The next item was, a sum of 158,728/. 6s. Bd., for the ex pences of salaries, &c., of his Majesty's yards at home. 'lbis, after a few words from Mr. WARBERTON and Sir G. CLERK, which were nut distinctly heard, was agreed to. The next item was a sum of 560,000/. for wages of artificers and labourers in his Majesty's yards at home. Mr. HUME thought that this and the next item, which was chiefly for timber, and which added to the present, amounted to 1,600,000/., might be considerably reduced without injury to the public service. Sir G. CLERK could assure the Committee that Government were by no means inattentive to the progress which other nations were making in the construction of particular kinds of vessels, and when they saw any such vessels built, care was taken that we should have similar vessels, to meet them in case of necessity.—(Hear, hear.) Sir J. YORKE did not think it necessary that we should continue to build very large vessels, or that it was neces sary in that respect to imitate other nations who were construct ing vessels of such a size that it would require a crew of Patago- I nian chaps of some eight feet and a half high to navigate. It had often fallen to his lot to differ from his Hon. and Gallant Friend (Sir George Clerk), but he did so most w idely on Ihe r sub m ject n o d f describe. the experiment made of cutting down a 74, the B ah The upper deck was cut • officers n we h r n e w ob t l n i g a vi to go down Tao • down to a deck lower, an d the men still lower, and in this state, making it a kind of vessel w e hic n h hehhaerd ly without her proper complemen t of men , she was sent on a broil ing hot station , w here the thermometer was generally 95 or 96. He also wished to bein formed on what principle it was that such change was made in several of our cutter-bri g s, which were atransformed from exceedingly good vessels with two masts, into the worst possible kind of vessels that could be mentioned with three masts. He could not see the reason of this alteration, I which was about as expensive in its nature, as if the Hon. Se cretary to the Admiralty, who had great taste in building, should attempt to remove the walls of the Union Club-house, in order to stick them up in some other position.—(Hear, and a laugh.)— He repeated, he should like to have some explanation why this expensive process should be resorted to, which obliged the c o people cK t o rlu extract itN their said, Chan cellor of the Exchequer, in or d er t o fi n d t h e means of supplying the necessary funds, to dip hi s f ore -fi nger an d thumbtothe yocke t s of G. the caBh Sirthe subject on which the Gallant Admiral seemed so much at a lose for information was very easily explained. It was necessary to have a proper class of frigates to meet those of other nations. It was well known that one of our frigates was captured in the late war by a frigate of the enemy, but it was not then generally known that the vessel by which ours was taken was so much superior in size and force. — The thing was looked upon as'the capture of one frigate by an other, and a general damp was cast on the country for the time. The ship of which the Gallant Officer had given such a descrip tion to the House, was what it pretended to be, a frigate, and one of the finest frigates in the world. She was one of the smallest class of 74's cut down. A trial had been made of her, and though the trial was a short one, it proved, as far as it went, that the experiment was completely successful. The 74, thus cut down, was almost noth in g as a 74, and it would h a v e t a ken an immense expense to p ut her into proper re pair ; but the cost of cutting her down to her present size was comparatively trifling. The vessels from which she was selected were not considered worth the expence of repairing, and were called the " forty thieves." As to the cutter brigs, the gallant admiral (Sir J. Yorke) bad shown himself as little informed as on the su bje c t o f the frigate. The fact was, that those cutter-brigs; from the great size of their mainsail, occasioned an immense strain ing on the timbers abaft the main mast, so that after a voyage, many of those timbers were found to be broken. In order to remedy this inconvenience, it was found necessary to alter them so as to give them three masts. The Admiralty had instituted experiments to learn whether the cutter-brigs or the sloops were the swifter sailing vessels. They pitted each of the brigs into had put three masts , with one of the brigs in its us ual state, found that upon all occasions the vessel with three masts b ea t the brig with two. The Harlequin, which w ha n d ich o a n t nhede y they to the West Indies, was, before the change whi ch had been made in tier, a elow.sailing vessel ; but since that change she had beaten with ease all the vessels upon that station. He co ntended, at so me len g th, that, instead of s p oiling these vessels, they had made them not onl y better sailers, but also much less dangerous in action. He allowed that the Admiralty might fail in the exper iments which they had made on these vessels, but he w ould not co nsent to g ive those ex p eriments up until he was more convinced than he was at present that those experiments had failed. Sir J. YORKE begged to remind his gallant Friend, that the "forty thieves" were not built under his super intendence, as his gallant friend might soon see by .referring to the requisite records at the Admiralty. The country had already , had sufficient experience of the effects of cutting down seventy-fours. He would appeal to an Hon. Friend behind him, whose gallant father had commanded the Indefatigable. whether that ship was not in his opinion, a very indifferent vessel. What good, them could be effected by cutting down such a vessel ? He could not for his life conceive how a bad ship, as a seventy-four, could be cut down into a good frigate. If he were wrong in that opinion,. he called any officer who could either string or vlice two senten— ces together, to contradict him if he could. Captain PELLEW was understood to state, that his father had always represented the Indefatigable to him as a very good ship. Mr. CURTEIS could corroborate the opinion which the gallant Admiral had given as to the excellence of the Barham frigate, by the testimony of one of her officers, Lieut. Fortesque. He had heard that officer say that the Barham was one of the finest frigates in the service--that she was able to carry 32 pounders on her deck with the greatest ease, but that she had scarcely men enough to fight her, and that the had not room to carry more. (Hear, from Sir J. Yorke.) Sir G. COCKBURN said, that there was plenty of room in the frigate for more men, and the gallant Admiral who now commanded her had authority to report whether she was at present manned by her full complement of men. Captain GORDON bore testimony to the effi ciency of the Barham in her present condition, and said that she was now a match for the finest frigate in the world. The grant was then agreed to. The next grant, which was for 926,062/, being the charge for timber and all other materials for the building, repair, and fitting of His Majesty's ships, was then agreed to, after a few ob servations from Messrs. 'Warburton and Hume. £40,000 was then agreed for pilotage, salvage, bounty for slaves, and other contingencies, after an objection had been raised to it by Mr. Hume, on the ground that it was irregular to intro duce into the navy estimates an account of the sums paid as head money for captured negroes. The following grants were then agreed to : £53,137 9s. 11 d. for foreign yards, salaries, wages, and con tingencies. £70,385 Bs. 6d. for the victualling yards. £59,672 I6s. sd. for medical establishments, safaris*, and contingencies. £6,611 7s. 3d. for the Royal Naval College. £103,813 Is. Id. for wages to officers, shipkeepers, and: wen belonging to vessels in ordinary. £52,353 12s. for victuals to the said officers, shipkeepers, &c. On the grant of £37,250 being proposed for the hired packets. Sir J. YORK E wished to be informed how the taking away these packets from the Post-office worked in practice- . - Sir G. COCKBURN said that the new system worked perfectly well. The voyages were now performed both in less time and with less danger ; and, besides, Government was. enabled to have some packets always ready for sea in a case of* sudden emergency. Mr. HiIME wished to know what the difference of expence between the two systems amounted to? G. OCCKU considered asß anllteNre questionsaid, t o h f a p t ou i n f ds t , h s e hil l i u ng e s s , tin were and o pence, Sltro th hG e e present system, perhaps, cost a little more. Under the old system, the commanders of the packets were entitled to certain nerquisites, from which they were debarred under the new one. They smuggled and took fees, which they were now prohibited from doing. They had in consequence demanded higher wages, and it had been deemed expedient to accede to the terms which they proposed. The grant was then acceded to. On the next grant of 2QOOOI. for ships building at Bombay, Sir J. YORKE asked how long the expenditure at Bombay was to continue? Was it right to send the work of the navy to be effected abroad, when our own shipwrights were starving at home. Sir C. FORBES contended, that ships could be built in Bombay at a cheaper rate, and of greater durability, than they could be in England. The grant was then agreed to. On the grant of 881,0001. to defray the half-pay of flag officers, Mr. 1-lUME thought that there was too much pro motion in our naval service; that it went on much too rapidly; and that it was even getting beyond the means of the country to support. Sir G. COCKBURN contended, that from the opinion of the Hon. Member for Wareham, who thought that promotion went on too slowly, and from that of the Hon. Mem ber for Aberdeen, who thought that it went on too quickly in the navy, it was only fair to presume, that the Admiralty, i n steer i ng. great a steady middle course between the two , was acting with wisdom. After a few remarks from Mr. HART DAVIS, Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY thought that the system of promotion, which was conducted in the navy upon principles unknown in every other department of the state, was liable to great objection. Mr. HUME skid, as promotion was asserted to be necessary to keep the navy in order, he supposed it would be equally necessary for the marine service ; and yet, in one year, he saw 294 promotions in the navy, and only thirteen in the marines.- From 1816 to 1826 there were only seventy-six promotions in the whole marine service. The vote was then agreed to. On the resolution for granting 122,006/. to defray superannua tion allowances to naval officers and their widows, Mr. HUME asked a question with respect to the sum paid to Lord Carhampton, whose name appeared in the list. Sir G. CLERK and Mr. CROKER explained. From their statement it appeared that Lord Carhampton was an old officer, and had been placed on the retired list. In, conse quence, he could not again be called into the service, nor could he receive any promotion. Under these circumstances it was, that 14s. 6d. a-day, the sum equivalent to his half-pay as captain, was granted in the nature of a pension. To this he h a d a positive right. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, that the s a u n b y st o a t ti h t e i t al i r n e te li i e e f st t , o , t v l a ie s cboyuantrreyd,ucwiiiotnhouotf the j p u r r o i p n e g r t w he ay la t n o d g ed iv o e r various estimates. The vote, after a few words from Sir J. YoaKE,. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN, and Mr. HOME, was agreed to. The sum of 1,500/. was granted to defray bounties to Naval Chaplains. On the vote for 8,000/., to defray the charges for Widows and Orphans on the compassionate list, Mr. HUME inquired who were eligible for the charity ? Sir G. COCKBURN answered, the widows and orphans of every naval officer who died without fortune ; and their cases were so closely sifted as to render evasion impossible. Vote agreed to. On the vote of 105,0001., to make good the deficiency in the charitable fund for the support of the widows and children of war rant officers, Mr. HUME inquired how that deficiency arose ? Sir G. CLERK answered, that the sum of 90,0001. voted last year was not sufficient for the purpose intended. This fund arose out of a variety of contributions ; but as they were not sufficient to cover the expense, it was found necessary to apply to the House, and the sum now wanted was 105,000/. Mr. HUME asked whether there was any limita tion to those pensions. Mr. CROKER answered, that formerly there were two limitations, but there was no limitation at present. The limitations had been removed by Parliament, in consequence of the exertions of the gentlemen opposite. Mi. HUME thought that the former plan was by far the more proper. Limitations, as to the persons who should receive this bounty, ought to be established ; because he under stood that some persons receiving these pensions were possessed of 1,600/. or 2,0001. a year. .He thought, therefore, that a change ought to be made, and he wished to know how it could be best effected. make any alteratio n , as t h e existing system Mr. CROKER sa id , the Adm i ra l ty cou ld not had the sanction of Parliament. Vote agreed to. The sum of 10,000/. was voted for the pensions of Marine Officers' Widows. kno or w th th e eLta it t a e l O m a r t . h H e motion forMS e expressed r e s granting sed t t o o make good the defi xiency of the charge for the out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital. and amount of the property belonging to Greenwich Hospital. Mr. CROKER said, the sum now called for was estotapbalyishtmheenor-peWnhsieonneevresr, livn h fo o rm fo a r t m ion ed w n aa o . p e a a r il t .ed for respecting the:funds of the hospital, it was always readily g iven; and he was happy to say, that the estates of that excellent charity w ere . ma•