The Sun. — London, England, 1834-07-30 00:00:00

which now existed of carrying these clauses in the other House presented itself to that Noble Earl ; he would at once have seen, that however desirable their insertion, it would be the worst policy to attempt to force them upon that House. The feeling against these clauses in the Lower Hue was so well understood, that not even a hint at such a motion as that now made by the Noble Duke had been given utterance to. The Earl of ABE RDEENprotested against public mea sures being justified by the private opinions of functionaries, however high in office- —( Hear, hear.) Such a doctrine as this, if acted-upon, would be most prejudicial to the public service, if not indeed destructive of the Constitution itself. He was the last man to violate, or to seek to violate, the sanc tity of any private communication, but he must protest against any such communication being made - a justification of legisla tive acts. This opinion, too, of the functionary alluded to, was the less to be relied upon, as it was admitted that he had given it not with reference to the state of Ireland, but to the state of opinion in England ; or, in plain English, with refe rence to the position of Government in the House of Com mons. As he said before, he was as unwilling as any one to violate the sanctity of private letters, but he well remembered that, in the office he had had the honour to fill, it was not un usual to make private communications such as this public, when the public service required it, and he considered the present a case in which the public service eminently required that a pri vate communication should be made public.—( Hear, hear. ) Viscount MELBOURNE admitted that an error of judg ment had been committed by a member of Government, and that much mischief had been done ; but he was convinced that nothing like treachery or ill intention had actuated the indi vidual who had committed this mistake. With reference to the Bill as it stood, it was altogether wrong to describe it as a concession to a party who wished to disturb the peace of Ire land ; it was nothing of the sort ; it was purely a concession to public opinion, as expressed in the Lower House.--( Hear, hear.) The Noble Viscount repeated what he had before said, that if the experiment of omitting these clauses failed; he should at once call Parliament together for the purpose of re newing them. He denied that their omission showed any de parture from the principles of the late Administration.— ( Hear, hear.) Their omission arose entirely from a necessity which did not exist when the measure was before brought for ward in that House. The principles of Government were in no respect altered. The Bill was then read a third time without a division. The Duke of WELLINGTON then proposed the amend ment of which he had given notice. The LORD CHA'N' CE LL 0 R said he principally rose to correct a false impression which appeared to exist in a Noble Earl's mind, with reference to the principles entertained by his Majesty's Ministers. The Noble Earl seemed to think that he (the Lord Chancellor) had changed his opinions upon these clauses, but he would repeat what he had said before, that,the postponement of these clauses was not matter of op tion, but that that which the Noble Earl described as an in consistency and abandonment of principle, was, in point of fact, a bowing to expediency. It had been said that the pre sent Government, while professing to act on the same princi ples as when his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) was at its head, began by introducing a measure altogether repugnant to what the Noble Earl would approve of. That he (the Lord Chan cellor) begged to assure their Lordships was not the fact ; and his Noble Friend had authorised him—indeed, his Noble Friend declared the same thing in his place in that House, the last tim e he addressed their Lordships—his Noble Friend, he said, had authorised him to state, in the most decided terms, that in the altered circumstances of the case he approved, cor dially approved, of the measure as it now stood ; and that no °be, whether in or out of office, could be more anxious to support it than he was. _ _ _ The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—The Noble Earl said, that if in office he would have advised the present measure, in the altered circumstances of the case. The LORD CHANCELLO R— Precisely so. The Noble Earl was aware that in the difficult circumstances in which his Majesty's Government were placed, it would be impossible to Preserve the same course with regard to this measure as had been first proposed. With regard to what had been said by the Noble Earl (Wicklow) respecting the language employed by his (the Lord Chancellor's) Noble Friend on a previous evening, when speaking of the communication which had been fade by a member of the Government to another individual on the subject of the renewal of this measure ; he must say, that the Noble Earl had misrepresented what his Noble Friend did say on that occasion.. In fact, it was a species of special Pleading to maintain that his Noble Friend had said anything on that occasion which implied that there had been anything tr eacherously practised towards him. Nothing could be less german—nothing could be more foreign to the character of his (the LOrd Chancellor's) Noble Friend. He never said any such thing—he never thought any such thing. His Noble Friend never complained of treachery on the part of any one ; but the Noble Earl, in his prodigious ignorance—.( A laugh)—of th e import of what his Noble Friend did say on t occasion, persisted in maintaining that he did complain of treachery having been practised towards him. The Noble Marquis (Lansdowne). who seemed to have a far better me tnory than the Noble Earl, in so far at least as this matter was c oncerned , stated that his (The Lord Chancellor's) Noble riend did not only not say something of the kind imputed to Vee, but that he expres s ly stated that everything which had n done every step which had been taken in reference to his ineasu're, had proceeded from the most honest motives and the most honourable intentions. Of the motives which actu ated any man, or body of men, it was not fair for him (the - Lord Chancellor) to speak. He could not judge of motives, nor was he able to judge of the motives of his colleagues in this instance further than they could be inferred from the con duct which they had pursued; but when his Noble Friend had apprised them of his determination to retire from the Admi nistration, there was not one of them but furnished him with every evidence of their regret at the course which he had re solved to adopt. He could appeal to his Noble Friends oppo site, and he would have appealed to his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) himself had he been present, whether he (the Lord Chancellor) had not done every thing which it was possible to prevent the retirement of his Noble Friend from the head of the Administration on every occasion on which he had inti 'leafed that such was his intention. And his Noble Friend had for twelve months past entertained and expressed that in tention on no fewer than six different occasions. —(Hear, he ar.) He had entertained and expressed it at the close of last session—before the commencement of the present Session —at the commencement of the present session—and Se veral times after the session had commenced. In all, on six ;different occasions, five out of which six occasions he had !)een instrumental in getting him to remain in office ; and It was only on the last that he had been unsuccessful, though hot Tess anxious or less zealous in his endeavours to induce his rNoble Friend then to alter his resolution to resign. It had been said that he (the Lord Chancellor) and others of his colleagues were desirous of getting rid of his Noble Friend. the allegation was altogether unfounded. It was indeed a daost unreasonable supposition to imagine that they wished to et the Noble Earl out of the Administration, because they , m ust have k nown -that his retirement would of necessity break his the G overnmen t. To the representations which he and 8 Colleagues made to the Noble Earl with a view to induce I ' h im to remain at the head of the Administration, his answer was that he had detdmined, even had the circumstances in testion ne t t a ken place to retire from the councils of his T .( a.iesty, ow i ng to the infirmities consequent on advanced -cbezlrs, in a few weeks, most certainly at the end of the session. c e, lth resp ec t t o th e communication from a Member of the evernme n t to a Member of the other House of Parlia ent, about which so much misunderstanding still ex tle d in the minds of some Noble Lords, he must repeat W„'at he had stated on a former occasion. Lord Althorp Cer assthorised the Right Honourable Gentleman, the eretary for Ireland, to make such a communication as the Ittter Gentleman did make ; and it was incorrect, it was un it,anted by the facts of the case, for Noble Lords to say so. sns perfectly true—and he would at once admit the fact— shat:the Noble Lord had, when the Secretary for Ireland had X:" (3 sulted hi m o n the subject—it was perfectly true that the 0 Lord had said, that if he was asked any question by any o ysthe Members cf the other House of Parliament in that 'lse of Parliament, respecting the intentions of Government tlaregarded the renewal of the Bill of last year, to answer that s s i t e i s tien ; but the Noble Lord accompanied his observation a rid i the warning : " Be extremely cautious in what you say, not commit yourself." It was perfectly true that his (the 1 1 : 1 i 1 Chancellor's) Noble Friend (Earl Grey) had said that of ad never authorised any communication at all on the part tiZY Member of his Government, to any person out of the that - Now here he (the Lord Chancellor) must say I s was one of the occasions, this was one of the matter, he which he differed from his Noble Friend. In this respect t;t.adinitted he did differ from his Noble Friend. Communi op I °,' lB between his Majesty's Government and Members e s „'"e other House of Parliament were occasionally nes G s : t3 '. In fact, it would be impossible to carry on the tr o y ? I lnent of the country without such communications ; si , 4l 'lad it ever been carried on without , such occasional on : T ', o nications of the intentions of Ministers to Members INT "e Opiosition side of the House. He was sure that obi s . iisi 4 Lords would give him credit fur what he said, when he ie sp that h e never hesitated nor ever would hesitate, M' hi his opinion of individuals, when such expression 14, 1 1 ! opinion was necessary. But if he should b: accused of toy t , ll ?g back or concealing his opinion in such cases, he would Koss W S, that none of their Lordships, in their places in that or fe , ever expressed their opinions of individuals more freely 114,711arlessly than he had done ever since he had the honour of 1 4 't seat in that Hsuse, when he considered it his bounden 1 "al s . ° ,l° so. He never on any occasion truckle d to indivi ''diste' he trusted he never would truckle to any individua l bie st v er ; but h e did n ot consider that truckling to c0mmu '144.... certain information to a Member of the Legislature '4l'ntrit was patriotic, when it was for his Sovereign and his wit W Y 'S good, to make such communication. It was his duty hail as, in his opinion, the duty of every person placed in si trenmstances to consider the subject in reference to its to li g On • raj, the interests of the country, and then to act ac tkiil4l7 to his conviction, regardless alike of the favour or : s 'Pe et wl 'ieh may be the consequence of his conduct. With ay to the clauses which had been withdrawn, all he should 1 4 ° st s :; 1 that he had great hopes—that he entertained the , pV ui lle hopes, that though these clauses were no longer kr ‘ - '" 11 , the Bill would still be found sufficient for all v , l kr, ' , es it was intended to serve. He agreed with " Le Lord who said that his Majesty's Government theP°ss;hly find themselves mistaken in their opinions 41 4 1 0 talo efficieney of the measure, and that disturbances ,„ t e el ' Place in Ireland in consequence of withdrawing s _"'es• If so, and the flame of disaffection and t op os m ,e_e to the laws should. be found to be spreading Airrt the country, then the only alternative would be t e N 4 drninistratio n to re-assemble Parliament to apply such tesity 3 as the new necessity shall require. That such a ne sh:tl4slevaeYpever arise was his most anxious and earnest prayer. th e °L , indeed, that the necessity never would arise ; but prospect of Parliament meeting, and knowing that it possessed the power to put down all disturbances, and preserve the public peace, would be suff.cient to prevent any outbreakings or disorders in Ireland. He would only say, further, that he never regarded the clauses in question as of the same importance as the other parts of the bill ; and it would be in the recollection of their Lordships that on the first night on which the subject was brought under their consi deration, he had stated as much ; but he added further, on that occasion, that when he learned that his colleagues in office were impressed with the injustice of pressing so heavily on the peasantry, and leaving meetings in towns as before, he had gone more fully into their views. With respect to the letter which the Secretary for Ireland had written to the Lord Lieutenant of that country, it ought not at all to occasion surprise, considering the intimacy and friendship which subsisted between them. He (the Lord Chancellor) was himself in the habit of corresponding with that accomplished Nobleman, upon an average, three or or four times a week. He corresponded with his Excellency both in public and private matters; and be recol lected that he had written to him respecting this very subject, namely, the courtsmartial clause. He recollected asking the Lord Lieutenant whether he could do, or how he could do, if those clauses were withdrawn ? That question was asked in a letter containing a vast variety of other matter. But he had received no answer to his question, though he understood he had answered the question in a letter to his Noble Friend lately at the head of the Government, which letter, however, he (the Lord Chancellor) had not seen. But the letter to the Secretary for Ireland could not have been in consequence of his (the Lord Chancellor's) letter to his Excellency. He had not seen this letter, but had heard the nature of its contents. Noble Lords seemed still to adhere to the same opinion, that this letter of the Lord Lieute nant of Ireland to the Secretary for that country, was the cause of the breaking up of the Cabinet, and for altering this measure. Such was not the fact ; such was not the cause of the dissolution of the Cabinet ; but he would now tell their Lordships what was the cause of the breaking up of the Cabinet ; it was the communication of the contents of that letter to Members of the other House of Parlia ment, and the consequent disclosure of Government se crets ; and it was the same disclosures and not the letter itself, that led to the withdrawal from the Bill of the clauses in question. Noble Lords ought not to be too severe on Govern ment for this ; they ought not to be too severe on them for giving up those clauses. The Noble Earl ( Harewood), who knew what it was to act as a Magistrate on the bench, seemed to look on Government in this case as on the magisterial bench. We have given up those clauses, because we knew we could not carry them. So says the Noble Earl. And for the same reason he did not support the amendment of the Noble Duke. He does not support it, because he knows it cannot be carried. —(Laughter.) Neither did the Noble Duke, who proposed the amendment, and who had also made a ferocious attack on the Government, press his amendment. Why ? Simply for the same reason, that be knew he could not carry it.—( Re newed laughter.) The Noble Lords on the benches (the Op position benches) behind. him, all shook hands together, and agreed to let go the amendment, because they knew it could not be carried.--( Continued laughter.) The speech of the Right Rev. Prelate who addressed them, was one worthy of a good Irishman or Englishman either, and he (the Lord Chan cellor) concurred with him in hoping and praying that matters might not attain such a state in this land as to require any ex traordinary stretch of the executive. The Earl of WICKLOW explained. He maintained that the terms in which the Noble Earl late at the head of his Ma jesty's Government expressed himself in reference to the com munications of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland to Mr. O'Connell were such as to justify the construction which he (the Earl of Wicklow) put upon them. The Noble and Learned Lord who had just addressed their Lordships admit ted having written, in his hours of amusement, a letter to the Marquis of Wellesley, which might have had an effect on the Noble Marquis's mind. But of the contents of the letter their Lordships were also ignorant. There was another matter to which he (the Earl of Wicklow) wished to allude. He wished to know whether it was true that the Noble Earl late at the head of the Government had been offered the Privy Seal within the last few days.--( Cries of " No, no," from the Lord Chancellor.) He could assure the Noble and Learned Lord that the report had not only been extensively circulated, but that it had been very generally believed. Under this Bill there must be greater agitation than ever in ,Ireland, or if peace should be preserved in that country, it must be pur chased by a species of barter with the agitators. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose in consequence of what had fallen from the Noble Earl, to assure their Lord ships that there had been no barter, no bargain, no commu nication of any kind on the part of any Member of his Ma jesty's Government, with any party whatever, in reference to this measure. But the Noble Earl had taken care, happen what might, to leave ground for himself to stand on. If agi tation should be renewed in Ireland, the Noble Earl would say it was because the clauses in question were taken out of the Bill. If, on the other hand, peace should be preserved in that country, he would say it was in consequence of a bargain with some of the baser sort of persons in it. As regarded his own letter to the Marquis of Wellesley, to which the Noble Earl had alluded, he must say that he hoped neither that letter nor his other correspondence with that Nobleman would be produced; for if the letter of his Excellency to Lord Grey was unfit to be produced, his (the Lord Chancel lor's) was still more so. Some part of that letter was written in prose—it may be that some part of it was written, not in prose, but in bad verse.—( Laughter.) Some of it was in Latin—some of it was in Greek.—(Renewed laughter.) It was on a great variety of subjects, and only contained one question respecting the courtsmartial clauses of the Bill, amidst a hundred other things. In short, it was one of the most motley pieces of correspondence which their Lordships ever saw.—( Laughter.) The Noble Earl had called the letter one of amusement ; so it was, for in his hours of relaxation he was always happy to correspond with so ex cellent and so accomplished a scholar as his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. It might appear weakness in a statesman to say so, but he had no hesitation in making the admission, that he (the Lord Chancellor) had derived much valuable information from the truly classical mind of his Noble Friend. The Marquis of WE STME ATH wished to know whether certain persons in Ireland were to be taken into the confidence of Government, and to make the people of that country still more wretched than they now are ? The Duke of WELLINGTON explained. If Ministers had desired it, they could have carried the measure as it origi nally stood ; and he firmly believed that if the Noble Earl late at the head of the Governmentiiad remained in office, it would have been carried in the other as well as in that House of Parliament. The Noble and Learned Lord admitted that it was not the circumstance of the letter being written to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but the discovery and disclosure of the contents of that letter, that led to the breaking up of the Cabinet, and the taking out these clauses. It was impos sible that that circumstance could have made the House of Commons refuse to pass the measure. The Noble Earl (Grey) after the disclosure had been made, proposed the measure in that House in the same way as before, and expressed on the occasion his confidence of being able to carry it. It was be cause the Noble Earl's colleagues differed among themselves that the Ministry was broken up. He (the Duke of Welling ton) did not intend to press his amendment. He would not be taunted into pressing his amendment by anything which the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack could say. Their Lordships were aware of the reasons why he did not press it. He would content himself with placing his amendment on the journals of the House. The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Bill passed without a division. Their Lordships then adjourned, at ten o'clock, till half past three o'clock to-morrow. $O USE OF COMMONS, July 29. The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at twenty-five minutes past five. Sir J. STORMONT brought up the report of the Com mittee on the Shannon Navigation, which was laid on the table and ordered to le printed. CASE OF MAJOR PITMAN. Mr. HUTT presented a petition from an individual, com plaining of the conduct - of a Magistrate of Devonshire, and begged to ask the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Ebrington) whether in his capacity of Lord Lteutenaut of the county, he had taken any steps to investigate the complaint to which the petition alluded? After a few words from Mr. E. STANLEY, Lord EBR INGTON stated, that he had, in pursuance of orders received from the Lord Chancellor, proceeded to make further inquiry into the subject. He (Lord Ebrington) underst iod that the report which had appeared in the public papers was essentially correct ; but he should also add that he had received a letter by that day's post from Major Pit man, expressing a hope that a week's time would be given, in the course of which he should be enabled to make such a statement as would remove the unfavourable impression that had gone abroad.—( Hear, hear.) In a case involving the character of a gentleman and a magistrate, he (Lord Ebrington) thought that no further proceedings should be taken until the fullest possible opportunity had been afforded the accused to make whatever statement he could in the way of explanation or extenuation.—( Hear.) Mr. HUTT said that he thought the matter should be taken up by the Government, and he begged to know whether his Majesty's Government would institute any inquiry into the matter ? ME SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY 30, 1834. CHURCH RATES AND USURY LAWS. Mr. DIVETT gave notice that, next Session, he should move a resolution, for the entire extinction of Church Rates throughout England. and Wales.—( Hear, hear. ) If the subject was not taken up by some person better qualified than himself, he should also move for leave to bring in a Bill for the total repeal of the Usury Laws. _ _ SUDBURY ELECTION. Lord MORPETH gave notice, that he should to-morrow present a petition from certain electors of the Borough of Sud bury, and he should take that opportunity of calling the atten tion of the House to certain circumstances that had taken place at the late elections for that borough. Mr. R. TREVOR presented several petitions from places in Carmarthenshire in support of the Established Church. Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition from a place in Staffordshire, against the Bill for the regulation of the sale of Beer. Sir R. PEEL presented several petitions in support of the Established Church. The LORD ADVOCATE presented a petition from the Provost and Town Council of the Burgh of Paisley, in favour of the Bankruptcy Bill. NEW ROAD FROM WATERLOO BRIDGE. Colonel E VANS wished to know whether the new line of road from Waterloo bridge was to be continued to the north of the metropolis. They had been three years about this road and had only carried it as far as Bow -street, and he and many others regretted that the road was still incomplete. He hoped that the improvements would be carried on as far as Bedford-souare. Sir J. C. HOB HO USE said that the powers of the Act would not allow them to extend the line of road beyond Bow-street. The grant of 60,0001. made by Parliament for this purpose would not be exceeded. Re specting the continuation of the street, the Hon. and Gallant Member was aware that it was a question of money, and for the consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was, in his opinion, very desirable that the street should be continued to Charlotte-street from Bow-street. The Hon. Member might also be aware that the ground belonged to the Mercers' Company, who had signified that they had no objec tion to give up the fee-simple of the ground, but, at the same time, a considerable outlay of public money would be required to purchase the interest of the lessees and occupiers, and almost the whole of this money would be.lost to the public. If the line of road was extended beyond the present limit, it would be a question whether they would advance money for that pur pose—if such a thing was done he would be glad of it. Colonel E VANS said that if the thing were to be done at all, this was the best time to do it, as the leases granted by the Mercers' Company would shortly expire, and they paused to renew them until they saw what steps were likely to be taken by Government. They were willing to relinquish the fee simple, in consideration of the benefit that would arise to the rest of their property in the same neighbourhood. The whole distance was only 420 yards, and he understood that there were sufficient funds in the possession of the Woods and Forests for this purpose, and that it would not be necessary to come to Parliament for a grant. ORDERS OF THE DAY. Lord ALTHORP believed that it was now understood that le Orders of the Day were entitled to the precedence of mo tions, therefore he would move that the Order of the Day be now read. Mr. SPEAKER put the motion. which was agreed to. SALE OF BEER AMENDMENT BILL. Lord ALTHORP had had some communication with the Hon. Baronet who had introduced this Bill, and had now to state to the House that he had agreed to take the future con duct of it. He would not go on with it to-day, but would postpone it till Friday next. Mr. WARBURTON wished to know from the Noble Lord whether the Beer Bill was now to be considered a Government measure? but Lord ALTHORP'S answer was not heard in the Gallery. LAND-TAX AMENDMENT BILL. Lord ALTHO RP said he should postpone the consideration of ,his Bill till to-morrow. Mr. WILKE S considered it a most important measure. He knew that there were great complaints of the inadequacy of the compensation in many cases ; and as that was owing to the imperfection of the machinery employed in making the compensation, he wished to know from the Noble Lord op posite if any intention existed to make any alterations in the persons employed? Lord ALTHO RP was not prepared to say that any altera tion in the present system of proceeding would_be adopted. ECCLESIASTICAL RETURNS. Colonel PERCEVAL asked why certain Returns, ordered three months ago, had not yet been made by the Solicitor to ;he Ecclesiastical Board in Ireland? Mr. LITTLETON had no knowledge upon the subject, but surmised that the preparation of the Returns required much time. Colonel PERCEVAL added that it would not take ten minutes to make one of the Returns called for by the House. IRISH TITHE BILL. Mr. O'CONNELL rose to take the sense of the House on a question of which he had given notice, his object being the postponement of the further consideration of the Irish Tithe Bill until the next Session. He would confine himself to as few topics as possible ; and first he would remind Hon. Mem bers that the main measure contained 172 clauses, and that two smaller Bills, in the shape of additional clauses, extended the number to no fewer than 200. He need not remind them that they were called to the consideration of them on the 29th July. The effect of the measure upon the people of Ireland was double—it applied to the tithe-payers and to the tithe receivers, and was indisputably of vital importance to that country. All men must be aware how much of the dis turbances of the last sixty years had arisen from the fruit ful source of the tithe-system in Ireland. Nobody would assert that all the disturbances had arisen out of it, but they had been mixed up with it ; dissatisfaction had thus been accumulated, and the sentiments of the people had been em bittered by it. He had not the least doubt that Ministers intended this measure to be healing and salutary; but if ever a bill had been introduced requiring the fullest and the most deliberate consideration, it was that now before the House ; and he did not exaggerate when he stated that upon it de pended the tranquillization Of Ireland more than upon any other measure or class of measures that could be mentioned. Perhaps Hon. Gentlemen did not advert to the immense advantage which, during the last twelve yeas s, tithe-owners had obtained by legislation over tithe-payers. Eleven years ago tithe owners were amenable to public opinion, and even to those from whom they received their tithes, and the consequence was, that in nine instances out of ten, the tithe-owner was obliged to assent to a fair and reasonable composition. He readily did the Irish clergy, as a body, the justice of admitting that where they themselves lovied tithes without the intervention of a proctor, with some marked exceptions, they were just and lenient. Another advantage to the tithe-payer was, that if the owner did not collect the tithe each year he lost it for ever. Up to the period of which he was now speaking, there had been many partial insurrections, for such he called the distur bances on account of tithes. Afterwards the Commutation Act was passed, and it gave to the owners a great advantage over tithe payers, an advantage of which they did not neglect to avail themselves. They had powers of distraining, of sus taining actions without proof of contract, every possible power that could be bestowed on them, greater than those possessed by landlords themselves. His Majesty's Government at that time, as would appear from the debates, exulted in the thought that they had finally settled the question. And what had the result been ? Why, that at the end of six years from passing the act, Ireland exhibited a greater picture of disturbance and disunion than ever—disunion to everything but opposition to the collection of tithes. He implored the Government to re flect on this, and not by persevering in the same system to turn over another leaf in the same book of calamity. What were they now going to give the tithe owners ? a demand on the treasury to be secured by the proprietor by a rent charge, chargeable on the best property of the country. And this was intended to quiet Ireland ! Now, what would be its effects The measure was not a uniform one, and there would be an uncertainty and variation in the harges on the various parishes: of Ireland. He could quite compre hend any measure for quieting immediate and existing discontents, even though that measure should require sacrifices from the tithe owners, or tithe payers, or both. He could easily understand the value and importance of an immediate remedy ; but this bill, he would implore the House to recol lect, could not come into complete operation till 1839. They might as well talk of postponing the settlement of the tithe question for ever. By this bill, from the Ist of November, next, and including that day, the present tithe owners would cease to have any claim upon the land. But with regard to everything due before that time, they would be left to their usual and present resources. According to the tithe compo s'llon act, the tithe owner must distrain for his claim within 12 months after it was due or not at all. Now look what would be the effect of this limitation ; it would just operate as Lord Tenterden's limitation Act had--(Hear)—as a notice to every man to come forward and distrain, and urge all dor mant claims, lest they should be for ever foregone. Then in addition to this, from the Ist of November, they would begin collecting in the 1,000,0001. , or the 800,0001. of it which had been expended. Indeed, whatever might be the feeling of the parties, there was one class of dormant claims which must be made against those of deceased testators, for if the executors forebore to make them, a court of equity would charge them with the amount as assets in their hands. He knew it had been said in private that those dormant and out standing claims were not numerous. He believed, how ever, that the amount was greater than was imagined. At all events their paucity in number was an additional reason for Government interfering by the present Bill, and taking into their own hands the entire of these claims. And then, in addition to all these, they would have to collect their own land-tax, or rent-charge. So that the month of November next, if this Bill passed at once in its present shape, ought to be a sanguinary month.—( Hear.) He did not say it as a threat or taunt, but he deeply feared that such would be the effect of the harvest of litigation and contention which would then be reaped ; thereby increasing the existing hostility to tithes, and aggravating present dangers. How much better would it be to bring in a Bill founded on one uniform plan. By the present measure, an allowance was to be made to landlords, varying from 25 to 40 per cent. Now what, he asked, would be the practical consequence of such a variation ? Suppose three nearly adjoining farms, one paying the rent-charge of 100 per cent., the next 75 per cent., and the third, in an adjacent county, divided only by an imaginary line, paying only 60 per cent., what would be said by these farmers when they met to gether at the same market, and compared their relative situa tions ? How contented they would be They would be told it was according to the law and the Act of Parliament. Wjiat great additional respect it would give them for laws and Acts of Parliament I—( Hear.) How it would increase the filial respect which they felt for the species of protection they had been in the habit of receiving from Acts of Parliament This, surely, was not the way to quiet the country. He did not doubt that Ministers were actuated by the purest intentions ; bat had they the most opposite notions, they could not have thrown together a more complete olio of contradictions and difficulties, or one more calculated to excite riot and disturbance. Forty per cent. He did not deny it was a boon. • But why not give it at once and to all ? Instead of bidding and huckstering with the landlords about it, let them give it at once, and levy the rate.—( Hear, hear.) The Government supposed that by holding out this temptation, they would get the landlords to come into their plan ; and probably many would—many honourable men—who would allow their tenantry the benefit of what they received from the Govern ment; but he feared there were many others who would jump at it as a bargain to benefit themselves alone. These landlords would be regarded by the peasantry as tithe-proctors, and every one knew in what degree of esteem they were held in Ireland. For his part, he should not like to be the man to collect that landlord's rents. It was a great evil, that the feel ing which had hitherto existed against the tithe-owner alone, was extending itself to the landlord. The waters of bitter ness were swelling in that direction. This was no party ques tion. It was admitted on both sides of the House, as one of the greatest evils of these agrarian disturbances, that they had the effect of assailing the rents ; and he very much feared that the position in which this Bill would place the land ' lords would draw the agrarian disturbances in that di rection.—( Hear, hear.) How much better then would it be to postpone this Bill to next session, and suffer all these serious objections to be weighed in the interim. Be sides, there was another most important objection to proceed ing with the present Bill. They had issued a Commission, a commission approved of by themselves, a commission, perhaps, too tedious in its details, but founded on a principle full of hope for Ireland. It was impossible for Government to go on next session without some general plan of tithe appropriation.— ( Hear.) They could not form a judgment on this subject till they had obtained the report of that Commission. How much better, then, to defer the final settlement of the question till then, and form the whole into one uniform system. Let them, then, moderate that little, if they found it too much, or in crease it if they found it too little ; for of this he assured them, that if the appropriation were satisfactory, they would find the collection of tithes in Ireland much more easy. The success of any or every system they attempted to establish, must depend upon the nature of the appropriation. If they postponed the measure, they would have time to deliberate whether they could not, with advantage, frame the Bill in a different way. Whether it would not be better to make the abatement forty per cent. certain for three years, with the power of diminishing the allowance to landlords by whom, or in districts by which it was opposed. In fact, all they ought to do depended on the result of the Commission, and if they did not postpone their Bill, they could not expect to make it any thing but a piece of patchwork. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then animadverted on the with drawal of the redemption clause, which they could not pro perly settle till they had settled the appropriation. He thought that such a plan of redemption might be devised as would obtain for them that which was the only method of getting rid of dissatisfaction in Ireland—the final extinction of tithes. Again let them consider the advanced period of the session—let them look at the thin state of the House on a dis cussion that at another period would have filled its walls. Two thirds of the Members were out of town, and the ;majority of those who attended to its business were gentlemen connected with the Government, who must necessarily feel disgusted at having a discussion forced upon them when their votes were previously engaged. Surely it was not right to decide upon so important a measure, and now open to so many objections, under such circumstances; nor was such hop step and jump legislation calculated to attract the confidence of the people of Ireland. But the question would be put to them, what they would do if the measure were postponed ? He admitted that was a question which he was bound to answer, for it could not be left as it was. Well, this then was what he proposed. There was from 200,0001. to 300,0001. of the million not yet disposed of. Ho knew, indeed, that 820,0001. had been claimed, but many of those claims had been disallowed, and reduced. He knew that in the South especially many im proper claims were advanced one especially, in the county of Cork, where the Barrister (Mr. Anderson) actually produced to him the receipts for the tithes which he claimed, and he still insisted on his claim, because the peasantry had forgotten to give the requisite notice of opposition.—( Hear.) The Bar rister, however, refused his claim. In relation to what he had said before, he would remark that persons who made such claims, were not likely to fail in bringing forward before No vember next any which were at all colourable. Well, these claims were at present, say 200,000/. ; to that he would ask them to add 150,000/. more, pledging the House by a re solution that it should not come upon the general taxation of the country, or upon the Consolidated Fund. Bet let it, if they pleased, be raised by Exchequer Bills, especially and solely chargeable on the tithe-property of Ireland. He _s_ s am no objection to thus anticipating the tithe, and he would warrant they would get the money in half an hour in the city of Dublin alone.—( Hear.) They were substantially arrang ing this question as a new Government, and therefore would be bound only by their own opinions of expediency ; and he urged them, therefore, to adopt a course which would lead to the most satisfactory settlement of the question, and if they thought any parties would not take the money, they had only to tell them that they would not give them the assistance of the military or police in collecting their tithes, and they would put forth no other proclamation. He was sorry such a feeling existed amongst the Clergy as there did. What he was going to relate he could prove by an Hon. Member of that-House, who was coming in the packet from Cork with the clergyman in question. He asked the clergyman whether he would take any of the million, who replied he would not touch a farthing of it, but that he sold his tithes, 800/., to a tithe proctor for 450/. ready money, on the express stipulation that he should not give up one farthing to the:" rascals. "—( Hear.) The advance of this sum would suffice till the next session, when the Commission would have made its report, which report, together with the plans of the Government, he should propose be referred to a Select Committee, con sisting of gentlemen of all parties and opinions, who might give the subject their most deliberate attention, and if then they failed in tranquillizing Ireland, it would be im possible to deny that they had done their utmost to ac complish it. He was sure there was nothing in the temper or character of the Irish people to render it . likely that an experiment of justice and kindness should fail. No man would say by experience that it would, for but few such expe riments had been tried, and one which had been made was ac companied by a rigid refusal to carry its consequences into effect. Let them only come to the determination deliberately, and it would be sure to be satisfactory. He apologized for de taining the House so long, and would conclude by moving, that the Bill be committed that day six months. Mr. LITTL ETON said he was happy to inform the House that the Bill had been materially reduced in point of length, and that instead of 200 clauses, it now consisted of not more than 70 or 80. He would first of all advert to the concluding part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech. His pro position was, that the Government should repeat the measure of last year. There were many bad consequences which would ensue upon such a step. He was not blind to the consequences of that measure. He was not blind to the consequences of a long desuetude of payment, and if they now repeated the experiment beforehand, they would be giving such . a sanction to the principle of resistance, that by the time they obtained the report on the appropriation, there would be nothing left to appropriate. The Hon. and Learned Gen tleman had alluded to the inequality of the tithe under the present Bill. Now, out of thirty-two counties in Ireland, it was presumed that the allowance of 40 per cent. would be taken.in twenty-five, whilst the remaining counties were those which were now exclusively Protestant, and where the least resistance was to be anticipated. He was not certain that it was necessary, in the present stage, for him to follow the Hon. and Learned Member through all his observations. But it appeared to him that the Right Hon. Gentleman's ob ject was, by obtaining delay, to render the collection of tithes still more difficult.—( Hear.) He did not mean to impute to the Hon. and Learned Member personally any improper mo tives ; but he was so deeply mixed up in the resistance to tithes, that he did not think it possible for the Government to introduce any plan which should not meet with his opposition ; and though the Hon. Gentleman did express some gratitude to the Government for their exertions to conciliate all parties in Ireland, yet he thought sufficient credit was not given them for their efforts—efforts which, he was happy to say, he be lieved, from the communications he had received, to have been most successful, and which would - ultimately be produc tive of the most beneficial effects. From these communica tions he had great reason to believe that the landlords would voluntarily take upon themselves the payment of the tithe, and that they would ultimately lead to their final extinction. He believed also that the majority of these landlords would al low their tenants the benefit of what they received from the Government, and treat the concession as pro tanto an absolute extinction. Mr. SHE IL contended that it would be much more advan tageous to adopt the plan of his Hon. and Learned Friend. The English Tithe Bill, which was introduced at the begin ning of the Session, had been withdrawn because it had met with some opposition in England ; yet the Government obsti nately, and in the teeth of the Irish Members, persisted in forcing on the Irish Tithe Bill, which had only been recently introduced. The value of the tithes in Ireland had been greatly overrated. The clerical tithes were estimated at five and-twenty years purchase instead of thirteen, which was all their value ; and the estimate of the lay tithes was three mil lions, instead of one. A Bill so important in its nature ought not to be decided in the absence of so many English and Irish Members. Why not postpone the proceedings for some time at least? It had been declared by his Majesty's Govern ment that they were ready to call Parliament together, if ne cessary, in the month of October, for the purpose of coercing Ireland. Why not call Parliament together at the same pe riod for the purpose of relieving Ireland ? It was painful to see the disinclination of Government to listen to the opinions of the Irish Members. Surely the Members for Ireland must know that country better than the Members of his Majesty's Cabinet, not one of whom, with the exception of the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies, knew anything whUever of Ireland. He (Mr. Shell) had a great respect for that Right Hon. Gentleman, who had frequently evinced his love for his country, the sincerity of whose love, however, might, in future, be doubted, if he supported the Bill under consi deration. Mr. HENRY GRA,TT A N denied that the Bill would at all effect that which it was described as calculated to effect, namely, the permanent settlement of the question of tithes in Ireland. It was impossible that a measure, the completion of which was to hang over till 1839, could have such a result. The Bill gave his Majesty's .Government powers which they never before possessed. Forty per cent. was to be allowed to landlords for the collection of tithes which would never be paid. The lessees of large estates would resist the payment of tithes a much as those of small. The sixth clause shut for ever the door against any other appropriation of the tithe than that which at present existed. Having taking away the re demption clause, and having introduced this appropriation clause, all hope of the ultimate extinction of tithes was done away. What he strongly recommended in substitution of such a measure, was to lay a tax on all the land in Ireland, to put the amount into the Exchequer, and to pay out of that fund whatever might be required for the maintenance of the Pro testant clergy. Instead of the very large, and the very small sums which were now paid to that clergy, a just and reasonable provision, proportioned to the labour of the clergyman, and ave raging, perhaps, some such sum as 3001. a year might be esta blished. Among other benefits it would relieve the Protestant clergyman in Ireland from the painful necessity of asking for eleemosynary fees from a beggarly and - bankrupt popula tion ; and it would prevent a continuance of the present system of enforcing the payment of the Clergy by police and troops. An instance of great violence on the part of the troops and police, in the collection of tithes, had occurred in the county of Monaghan. Mr. Curran, a son of the celebrated man whose memory was so distinguished, was sent down to that district to inquire into the subject ; but the report which he made very much dissatisfied the people, who considered it an outrageous one. And yet that gentleman had been appointed a member of the Commission lately issued to inquire into the state of tithes in Ireland. Parliament would never redeem the pledge which Mr. Pitt had given to the people of Ireland at the Union ; they had never attempted to remove the sources of discontent in that country. If they did not endeavour to do so soon, that discontent would grow to a height which would be found exceedingly dangerous. His Majesty's Government passed over the petitions of the Irish people on this subject, as if they were of no value ; although they did not do so on the Reform question. Since the introduction of the present Bill, no fewer than 700,000 names had been enrolled in Ireland in hostility to it. Did the grave and wise people of England think that the system at present pursued with respect to Ire land would last ? It could not last. They were legislating not only against common sense, but against their own charac ter, with a total disregard of public honour, and national re putation. Lord ALT HORP observed that the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had admitted, that if Parliament only pro posed the present measure, without the introduction of any substitute, great inconvenience would be the result. The sub stitute which the Hon. and Learned Member proposed was an advance of money, in order to enable his Majesty's Government to go on till the next session of Parliament, without taking any definite step in the arrangement of the question of Irish tithes. His Right Hon. Friend (the Secretary for Ireland) had, how ever, clearly stated what must be the consequence of any such proceeding, namely, that so long as cessation in the collection of Church property, would make it almost a matter of impos sibility to collect it at all. Now he did not believe that that was the object of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, or his friends ; for, however they might differ with his Majesty's Go vernment- as to the appropriation of Church property, they all agreed that that property ought not to be abandoned. Unless, however, some step were taken to show that that property would be collected, its relinquishment would soon ensue as a matter of course. The Hon. and Learned Mem ber had made some observations on what might be the effect of landlords, by this bill pursuing different courses ; some taking the bonus offered by the bill, and others not doing so ; and he had stated that in some cases the tenants would have to pay the whole of the tithes, in others only 75 per cent. of the tithes, and in others only 60 per cent. In his (Lord Althorp's) opinion, the tendency of this would be to produce a more rapid commutation of the tithes by the prospect of be nefit which that commutation would hold out. " But," said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, " why not do that at once which you now propose to spread over the space of five years." That proposition had been under the serious consideration of his Majesty's Government; but it had been thought better, instead of subjecting the landlords to any compulsory condi tion, to leave the matter to their own option. Most undoubt edly it was the wish of his Majesty's Government to carry their plan into effect at as early a period as possible, and he repeated that the only ground on which they abstained from insisting on an immediate composition was not disinclination to that result, but a disposition to avoid throwing on the landlord a bur then which he might not be prepared at once to endure. The Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary (Mr. Sheil) argued that because Ministers had postponed the English Tithe Bill, they ought to defer to the wishes of the representatives of Ireland, and postpone the Irish Tithe Bill. Now he (Lord Althorp) begged to say that the results of such postponement would be very different in the two countries. In England, there would be little, if any, of dissatisfaction ; certainly no breach of the public peace, and tithes would continue to be paid. But in the present state of public feeling in Ireland, not only would no money be paid, but there would be con fusion and bloodshed. Hon. Gentlemen had said that they ought to leave to the tithe owners the power of recovering their arrears. Now he (Lord Althorp) believed that in amount they were very small. He believed, in fact, that with the advances made by Government, and the collection that had since been effected, the arrears were smaller than many Hon. Gentlemen supposed. Therefore, by postponing the bill, th e y wou ld no t prevent the danger which it was supposed would attend the collection of a large amount of arrears. With respect to what had been stated on the 6th clause, he felt bound to say that he concurred with the view taken by the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary—( Hear, hear)—and though he did not think it ought to be withdrawn in Committee, still he thought that a desirable alteration might be effected. At all events he would attempt to alter it so as to obviate the just objections which had been taken to certain parts of it.—( Cheers.) Here he begged leave to say that he had never thrown on a late Right Hon. Colleague of his (Mr. Stanley) the sole responsibility of the previous Tithe Bill, or the sole discredit of their failure. It was not his habit to throw on others a responsibility or a censure which might partly apply to himself.—( Hear, hear.) He had in the be ginning approved of all those measures, and given them his hearty support, but subsequent experience convinced him that they were not calculated to work out the great practical re sults which he, in common with that Right Hon. Friend, and in common with the other Ministers of the Crown, anticipated. Therefore, he must in fairness say, that a part of the shame of failure—if there were any, when they all did for the best— most assuredly attached to him in common with his Right Hon. Friend.—( Hear.) The proposition now made by Go vernment had one great object, to throw the tithes on the land. lord, and thus relieve the occupying tenant ; and to induce the landlord to take this responsibility, by giving to him, or, more Properly speaking, by giving to his estate, rather than to him self—a handsome bonus. By so doing, he hoped they did that which would ultimately tend to the satisfaction of Ireland, and the consolidation of the strength and resources of the two countries. He well knew the difficulty of the question—he was fully alive to the embarrassments which surrounded it, but he honestly thought that, in the course they were now taking, they were going far to supply a remedy to that great evil which so powerfully afflicted Ireland. It was said, " Why not wait awhile, and call Parliament together again at an early period, to adopt some measure in reference to tithes ? But really this argument, in his eyes, carried with it no validity whatever. Then, too, it was said that the Irish Members were away, or going away. Really, if the objections of those Hon. Gentlemen to the present Bill were not sufficiently strong to induce them to remain throughout the discussion, he did not think they would be justified in declining, for the present, to legislate upon the subject.—( Hear, hear.) This was rather a strange way of maintaining their own position. He thought it was the duty of that House to proceed with the Bill, and at least endeavour to do something to restore tranquillity to a distracted country. Let it be remembered that the subject was not new—that the question had long agitated the public mind—that there had been ample time for the full considera tion of the Bill before them.—( Hear, hear.) The case was urgent, and he conscientiously believed that if they did not now take it into their serious consideration, with the view of settling the public mind, and coming to some practical decision upon it, that greater danger and confusion might ensue, which would entail upon them a responsibility which he, for one, was not willing to bear.—( Loud cheers. ) Mr. LYNCH said he should vote for the amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, because he felt satis fied they would be no more able to collect the fund after the passing of the present Bill than they were now. Their present object seemed to be to take the odium of tithes from the shoulders of the parsons and throw it on his Majesty. They were legislating on wrong premises. He (Mr. Lynch) was for appropriation before everything ; but if he could not get that, then was he for redemption on fair and just terms. It was a strange and melancholy fact, that all their measures on this subject had proved worse than useless—they had failed in all their other bills, and now the only success that would attend them would be that of alienating the affections of the people, and bringing the law and the Government into still greater contempt and disrepute. The dispute formerly was only be tween the castle and the tenant ; now they had managed to drag the parson, the landlord, the tenant, and the Crown into direct collision—they had mixed up tithes with taxes, and rent with both. Mr. WARD had paid an earnest attention to the argu ments brought forward in support of his • amendment by the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin, and after giving them his most serious and dispassionate con sideration, felt bound to say, that though they carried much weight in their application to certain clauses, yet that, they did not at all affect those general principles on whicif the Bill was founded. In his opinion, the question of arrears required the immediate consideration of the Government ; whether those arrears were great or small was not then the point—there were arrears, and that point peremptorily de manded, and ought, without any delay, to have the best at tention of the Government.—( Hear, hear.) Now, he ac knowledged that in the principle of the measure then before them there was much that was sound, much that was rational —that was fair, aye, and that was in a kindly spirit too.— (Cheers.) The removal of the obnoxious burden from the tenantry to the landlord, he always considered to be a sine qua non in any measure which was really intended to settle the question of tithe. This was to be effected, and in a way, too, that he heartily approved, by offering such liberal terms as would induce the landlords to coincide with the views of Go vernment. Some arguments he had intended to have addressed to the House on this part of the measure had been forestalled by previous speakers, and he should not repeat them ; but he wished to say a word or two on the question of appropriation, which had been mooted by the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin. That Honourable and Learned Gentle man stated that he, for one, would not take any steps to pre serve tithes till he knew to what purposes they were to be applied.—( Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Ward) looked at that as a totally distinct question. He certainly thought it desir able that they should have decided the question of appro priation on a former occasion, by which the subject would have been simplified, correct principles avowed, and an equitable settlement sooner obtained. But then the House thought otherwise, and declared that they could not safely legislate on so delicate a subject without further information ; but, at the same time, they had given a distinct pledge—a pledge that nothing could do away with—that the question should not be lost sight of, that it must and should be entertained at the commencement of the next session, with a view of putting the principle itself into active operation.—( Cheers.) Every leading Minister of the Crown had declared his sentiments in such a way that there could, hereafter, be no doubt with re gard to them. They I l iad been plain enough, straightforward enough, explicit enough, to satisfy every reasonable friend of the principle of appropriation.—( Cheers.) He agreed with the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was their duty not to postpone this measure to another year, which, perhaps, might prove fatal to the fund itself, and leave them nothing for appropriation. When, however, they did come to the principle involved in that question, it would be found how unflinchingly he would insist on the fullest latitude being given to its operation.—( Hear, hear.) At present he wished to confine himself to its preservation, with the view of its being applied hereafter (vested rights being respected) to national purposes. When those vested rights had fallen in, not one shilling would he allow, nor did he believe Parliament would allow, beyond the absolute justice and necessity of the case. The Bill, which in committee might receive any alteration that was necessary, should have his best support, as its leading principles had his warm approbation,—( Cheers.) Mr. WA DD Y (Wexford) said, that though the Irish Members in that House might be outnumbered, still he could not doubt but that their evidence would receive attention and respect—( Loud cries of "Hear, bear")---and he told them, from a long experience of the state of Ireland, that no measure they could pass would give satisfaction which did not fully acknow ledge the rights of the people. All measures of a different character would prove equally inefficacious with those which had preceded them, and be sent to the " tomb of all the Ca pulets," to moulder with ancestors as rotten and as worthless as themselves. Appropriation was the great question—that was the touchstone—on its solution depended everything.- -( Cheers.) Unless they established the grand principle that nothing should be paid to a church from which nothing was wanted—from which nothing was taken—they would never establish peace in Ireland : and as to a voluntary payment of tithe, oh ! the thought was ridiculous.—( Cheers.) They wanted no such law as the one under discussion. They wanted what would reconcile the people to the tithe—the tithe to justice--and the country to the Government— ( Hear, hear.) He thought when he heard that a Scotchman was to be Attorney-General for England, that there was in deed some hope for Ireland, for the Scotch had been educated, as it were, in a religious quarrel with tithes, and had struck down the monster with their own strong arm. Sure he was that a Scotch Attorney-General for England, legislating for Ireland—(Laughter)--could not frame a Bill to compel his countrymen to pay such an impost as tithe ; there was not an honest man in the whole clan of Campbell but what scouted such a tax.--( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He called upon them to defer the present Bill, and hereafter to intro duce one which would effectually strike at the root of the evil ; but he called upon them, above all, never to let the words tithe-war be so much as whispered in that House.— (Loud cries of " Hear.") Dr. LUSHINGTON did not hesitate to admit that the present Bill was complicated and contradictory, but that it was impossible it should be otherwise, both from the nature of the case itself, and the number of acts which were necessarily affected by the present measure. They could not well post pone the present measure without calling in the aid of English money. Though he was ready to grant a sum in case of need to the people of Ireland, he declared he would not consent to vote one farthing for the Church of that country.—( Cheers.) It was because the tithe was not the property of the owner of the soil, because, after the Church had been becomingly pro vided for, there would be found a considerable surplus, which surplus he was determined should be equitably and properly distributed—it was bepause that the Church had too long wallowed in wealth, that he would not consent to lavish sums on her to which she was not entitled, thmigh be might contribute them with pleasure to the necessities and wants of' the people at large.—( Cheers.) He thought, indeed, that the Church of Ireland stood upon a basis which it was impossible for the ingenuity of man to reconcile to the prin ciples of honesty, of right, or of justice.—( Loud cheers.) There was no greater enemy to his country than he who would perpetuate this state of things.--( Hear, hear.) What I would they for ever tie the living body to the dead ? ( Cheers.) Such a Church was opposed to the spirit of the age, and, in his heart, he believed was revolting to the word of God. He wished the present Bill to be proceeded in because he thought it would have a )..eneficial effect, and rescue a fund that might otherwise fleet away. Next session they would have the question of appropriation to decide upon. For his own part, he should be willing to provide for vested interests—he wished to bring no man to poverty—he would much prefer to raise all men above want ; but when those interests had been provided for, and when they had ascertained the positive extent of the demand for the Protestant population, not one shilling would he vote away on the vain and absurd notion which had lately been bandied about, of the expansiveness of Protestantism. The Irish landlords would be laenefitted to the amount of 40 to 20 per cent. by the conversion of the land-tax into a rent charge. Now, he begged to ask whether the English landlords woul d not be more than content if they could obtain such a reduction of their tithes ?—( Hear.) He could not believe that Hon. Members would oppose this desirable measure, and leave Ire land in its present unsettled condition. He was convinced that when the Irish people knew that the Legislature had resolved to reform the Irish Church, they would give the House some credit for consulting their wishes, and would unite with the landlord to carry this plan into effect, and thereby abolish many of the evils which now prevailed. The Hon. Gentle man, after expressing his disapprobation of the plan for invest ing the ecclesiastical funds in land, called upon Hon. Members to co-operate in perfecting this measure in Committee, and to abandon that strenuous opposition which would not only pre vent conciliation, but would be attended by no good. Mr. M. O'CONNELL contended that the measure was inefficient, and that there was no immediate exigency which required its adoption. The landlord would not obtain an in creased rent from his tenant, and he would then be compelled to adopt those harsh proceedings which had hitherto met with the deepest condemnation. He recommended them to take off at once 40 per cent. from the tithes, and to wait for the report of the Commissioners now in Ireland, before they considered the subject of appropriation. Mr. BARRON deprecated any delay, as he considered that the measure would be a great boon to the peasantry. He thought some Hon. Members had treated the Government un handsomely, for, at a meeting of the Liberal Members of that House, they agreed to withdraw their opposition, on the Go vernment making three concessions. The Government had consented to withdraw the appropriation clause, to have a new valuation where complaints were made, and to take off 40 per cent. instead of two-fifths, and yet the opposition to the measure was still continued. Mr. FRYER said that this Bill was intended to benefit the landlord and not the poor tenant, and he thought it cowardly in the Government not to put the full value of the tithe upon the land. He was convinced that the Bill would never give satisfaction to the people of Ireland, as it was not commensu rate with their wishes. Mr. W. ROC HE thought that the Bill ought to be post poned until next session, in order to give the Government time to render it more perfect and more conciliatory. Mr. WALKER did not wish to postpone legislation on the subject, as he considered the existing law worse than that pro posed. He, therefore, wished the Bill to be proceeded with. Mr. RUTHVEN opposed the Bill. He thought that the surplus revenue of the Church ought to be kept inviolate for public purposes, and ought not to be frittered away in any pro portion as a bonus to the landlords. He thought the plan pro posed by his Hon. and Learned Colleague ought to be adopted, as it was founded on a principle of fairness and conciliation. Mr. SHAW said the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was wrong in attributing the opposition to tithes to the mea sure of tithe composition. The opposition to tithes might, with more propriety, be attributed to political agitation, which was at its height in Ireland at the very period when the opposition to tithes began.—( Hear, hear.) He supported the Bill be cause it was at present the same as that which he had formerly supported, containing the redemption clauses ; but he con demned the abandonment of the redemption clauses, which were abandoned, not because they could not be passed, but because it would be inconvenient to pass them. He considered the omission of these clauses a dereliction of principle. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the amendment l4 Against it Majority Upon our return to the gallery we found the House in Committee, and Mr. O'CONNELL on his legs, contending upon the first clause, that the Government ought to take upon itself the arrears of tithes due, as well as the accruing tithes, otherwise the Bill would not effect its object of pro moting the peace of the country. What he wanted was to transfer the arrears of tithes to the same fund which was to be obliged to pay the amount of accruing tithes. The Hon. and Learned Member concluded by moving an amendment to that effect. Mr. LITTLETON did not think the point of mueh im portance, inasmuch as the arrears must be very small. The principle established last session was, that persons who took relief on account of the non-payment of any of the tithes of 1831, 1832, or 1833, renounced all claim to such tithes. Now, the amount_ claims for relief was about 800,0001., so that the amount orprevious arrears must necessarily be small. Mr. O'CONNELL said, that in every part of Kerry there was much tithe tuipaid. Besides, had they not had a case in which three lives were lost in an attempt to recover arrears of 2,000 ? Why not put a stop to this, and save the effusion of blood ? Mr. WARBUR.TON observed, that if the arrears were so small, it would be easiD to provide for them. Mr. • L ITTL E T OVrrepeated that he did not attach much importance to the question ; but the object held in view by the Hon. Member for Dublin might be attained by re-opening the Act of last session, sos to allow parties again to put in their 'claims, and that he had no objection to do. After a few observations from Mr. SnAw and Mr. O'Ratuv, in approval of the suggestion, Mr. O'CONNELL said he should be happy to agree to it, and the first clause vas• postponed to give time to amend it accordingly. The second clause was agreed to without remark. On the third clause being moved, Mr. O'REILLY proposed, as an amendment, that the tithe, instead of being considered a land-tax, s h ou ld b e con verted into a species of compulsory rent-charge. Lord ALTHORP was opposed to the amendment, as un necessary and impracticable, or even if practicable, one which might be acted on so as to be rendered oppressive in its operation. After some further discussion the amendment was negatived. On the motion of Mr. O'CONNELL, who stated that it was his intention to take the sense of the Committee on two parts of the clause, the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again to .morrow. EXCISE DUTIES. The House having resolved itself into a Committee on the Excise Duties Acts, Lord A LTHOR P moved a series of resolutions em bodying the various reductions of duty and charges com prehended in his financial statement on Friday, viz., a re solution that the duties on starch and 'stone bottles should cease and determine ; a resolution that the duty on spirits distilled in Ireland should be reduced one shilling a gallon ; a resolution that the duties on made wines should be mo dified ; a resolution that the duty on spirit licenses should be increased 50 per cent. ; a resolution that the duty on beer li censes, where the beer was consumed on the premises, should be increased 50 per cent., and where the beer was not drunk on the premises, that it should be diminished 50 per cent., &c. Captain GORDON moved, as an amendment, that the re so!ution for reducing the duty on spirits distilled in Ireland should be extended to spirits distilled in Scotland. Mr. GIL L ON seconded the amendment. The Committee divided— For the amendment a. • 9 Against it Majority The various resolutions proposed by Lord Althorp were then agreed to, and the House having resumed, the report was ordered to be received this day. Mr. ROTCH was proceeding to bring on his motion with