The Sun. — London, England, 1831-09-14 00:00:00

read that circular. If that were so, then it was a dere liction of duty in the Magistrates to refuse compensation ; but if thrashing machines were not equally protected as other property, not a moment should be lost in bringing in a Bill to remedy the evil. Mr. HUNT said, if such a Bill were brought in, lie hoped one would also be introduced to compel the fanners to employ all the labourers. He very much regretted to see thrashing machines used while so many labourers were out of employ. Mr. S. RICE observed there could not be a possibility of doubt that thrashing machines were under the same protection as other property.—(Hear, hear.) It might be necessary for the injured party to adopt certain proceedings, which perhaps this lady had not adopted, but he was satisfied that thrashing machines were included in the Act of Parliament the same as other property. He regretted to hear the observations of the Hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Hunt) against thrashing machines, which were certainly of great service in the country. Mr. C. FERGUSON was sure that there was no doc trine more dangerous than that uttered by the Hon. Aleni ber for Preston. There wag no point in political economy so plain as that all machines which shortened labour in creased the means of employment. Lord G. LENNOX read some portion of the petition, to show that the petitioner had taken the best mode of laying her claim before the Magistrates, and observed that he knew an opinion prevailed with some Magistrates, that thrashing machines certainly did not come within the Act of Parliament. Mr. HUNT said the best mode of giving employment to the poor was to lower the rents and taxes. He denied the statement of the lion. Member for Leicester (Mr. C. Fer guson), that thrashing machines would give employment to the poor. Mr. HUME deprecated the statement of the lion. Member for Preston, as calculated to encourage any had feeling that the labourers might entertain against machinery. Mr. HUNT explained. He did not wish to throw out any thing either to instigate or justify the breaking of thrashing machines, but would only again state to the House, as a matter of fact, that where the machinery had been done away with the labourers were now all em ployed. Lord INGESTRIE said his attention had been particu larly called to this subject, in consequence of having lately had occasion to pass through the county of Wilts, where extensive fires bad taken place. On one occasion a farmer had erected on Saturday evening a thrashing machine, and brought it into action on Monday morning, and his property was in consequence destroyed, so that ti e man was completely reduced to ruin and want. Ile (Lord Ingestrie) would take that opportunity to offer two or three remarks by way of friendly advice to the farmers, and he would tell them that whenever there was a great preponderance of labourers they would do well to abstain from the use of machines as much as pox eible ; while he would admonish the labouring class them selves on no occasion to attempt to gain with violence what would lie secured to them he knew without it,—tl e maintenance of their just rights and privileges. Mr. ROBINSON thought the matter demanded the prompt and judicious consideration of the Legislature ; and if they could nut do away with machinery, some other means ought to be devised by which a growing and a pregnant evil in the country would be diminished. The plain, and obvious, and only remedy, in his opi - nien, was to faci'itate, by reduction of taxation, and an alteration in the Corn Laws, the means of gaining sub sistence for the poor. He had received information from a quarter in the county of Kent to the effect that burnings bad again commenced, and he hoped, therefore, that im mediate attention would be given to the subject by Govern ment. Mr. HODGES was understood to say that although he was connected with the county of Kent, lie had received no such information respecting a renewal of the disgraceful scenes of last year. Mr. PAGET said, that another subject brought under the notice of the House by this petition respected the qua lification for Magistrates and Justices of the Pence. Very complicated matters were frequently submitted for their determination, and as the present qualification was only 100/., lie hoped that the Government would require some more considerable, if not legal or judicial, qualification. Mr. C. PELHAM was inaudible in the gallery. Lord GEORGE LENNOX hoped that, as the ques tion was now proposed whether thrashing machines should be as much under the protection of the law as any other species of property, some definite answer would be given by one of the law advisers of the Crown. Sir 11. VYVYAN said the petition related to a subject on which a considerable variety of opinion had prevailed. Whatever might be the advantages of the present increase of machinery, and he was not disposed to ur.der-rate their value, certain be was that the poor had not derived all the advantages therefrom which they ought to have had. Whatever the remedy might be, or whether it was in the competency of the Legislature in the existing state of things to devise one, he could not well divine. His opinion was, that if the present generation might sonic way or other suffer from the increase of machinery, the next would enjoy all its advantages. After a few observations from Mr. PAGET the peti tion wag ordered to be printed. Mr. SPRING RICE brought up papers connected with the Irish Miscellaneous Estimates. The Right Hon. Gentleman also moved for a new writ for Flintehire, in the place of Sir Edward M. Lloyd, raised to the Peerage. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN presented a petition from several individuals on the subject of the Reform Bill. Sir H. IIARDINGE gave notice of his intention to move for papers on Thursday next, relative to the promo tions in the Army, and the reduction of the Half• Pay List. Lord INGESTRIE presented a petition from the coal meters of Dublin, praying for compensation fur the loss of their fees. Mr. CRAINIPTO'N (the Solicitor-General for Ireland), though be would not say the coal-meters of Dublin bail a legal claim to compensation, yet could not but think they bad an equitable one. Mr. SPRING RICE could not conceive what right these individuals had to compensation. He thought it rather too hard to say, when Government bad re pealed a tax for the good of the public, that the parties who bail never been employed by the Revel - me should be allowed to set up a claim for compensation. LEFROY considered the petitioners entitled to what they prayed for. Sir JOHN NEWPORT could not see on what ground Hon. Members held these parties entitled to what they asked, being persons who had received no wrong by the repeal of the coal duties. Mr. SHAW contended that the coal-meters were the servants of the Government, for whom their exertions had saved upwards of 12,0001., and that therefore they were entitled to compensation. After a few words from Mr. O'CONNELL, who could not agree with the Recorder of Dublin, the petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. ROBINSON, previous to submitting the motiam to the House of which he had given notice, and which he feared he should be obliged to do in the absence of the Secretary for the Colonies, wished to present a petition from Waterford praying the House to take into considera tion the state of the island of Newfoundland. The peti tioners stated that some years ago their business was ex tremely extensive with that island, but that in com.equenee of its present state that trade bad been considerably de creased.—Petition ordered to be printed. The HoN. Mratnert then begged the attention of the House to a statement which he was compelled to bring fere. ward in consequence of the unsatisfactory answer which the Noble Lord opposite had given Bien on a former night ; when be stated that be was about bringing before their consideration the interests of one hundred thousand of his fellow-subjects, who, having no local Legislature of their own, were obliged to seek redress of injuries from Parliament, be felt confident he should receive a patient bearing. He had for three Sessions endeavoured to bring this subject forward, but the pressure of business of great importance prevented him, and if he consented to postpone it now it would be an abandonment of the subject for another Session; he could not consent again to postpone it. It was well known that Newfoundland was one of the most ancient possessions of his Majesty; and al though it certainly was not iris intention to charge the present, or indeed any former Governor, with improper conduct, he must say that, if it had had a local Legislature of its own, it mould have now become one of the most useful and flourishing colonies.-.._( Hear, hear.) In the early period of its history this colony was treated merely as a non-resident fishing colony, and the object of the few Acts of Parliament relating to it was merely to encourage persons to go there in the spring for th e purposes of fishing, and to return home in autumn, without encouraging any permanent residence there. At length, in spite of th e severe laws which existed,. o ne of which prevented persons building houses in th e colony, many persons went to resid e there. The Governors , who were generally Admirals, living but three months in the summer time in ti ci ony, h went so far as to pull down sonic of the houses, and ld p re ad to off others. The Hon. :limber said, he cou. the House a memorial addressed to the Governor, by to highly respectable individual, praying to be the Governor allowed build a pig-stye, and he bad the answer of . :secretary, in which the Governor's permission W 35 'l,rive This colony had been always considered an Admiralty co lony, the Governors being appointed by the Admiralty, and hence some difficulty arose in effectieg an improvement in it. Subsequently two Acts were passed of a tempo rary nature, namely the sth of Geo. IV., cap. 51, fur the encouragement of the fishery, and in the same year, cap. 57, for the better administration of justice. It would have been supposed that previous to the expiration of those Acts the Government would have inquired how they had operated with a view of extending or altering them, but notwithstanding the remonstrances that had been mule, showing the benefits that would arise from various alterations, a short Act was introduced to extend the two former for a period of three years and a half, and would the House believe that such had bee❑ the languor of the Government that the colony had been with t any law to govern it for the space of six weeks.—(lM) The Hon. Member then read a memorial which had been addressed last year by the inhabitants to his Majesty, praying to be placed on the same footing as the other colonies, by having the privilege of a local Legislature. He knew from personal communication with his Majesty, who stated that he re collected having been once in Newfoundland, that his Majesty sincerely sympathized with the inhabitants. He (Mr. Robinson) asked the Hon. I-louse in what state they would expect this island to be while it was ex eluded from the advantages possessed by the other' colonies. .—(Hear.) It was his intention to move an address to the Crown on this subject. The Noble Lord opposite he knew objected to giving a local Legislature, from the fear that, as he thought there was but one town of importance in the island, namely, that of St. John's, that town would possess advantages over all other parts of the island. The Noble Lord was mistaken in that, for there were other towns which rendered it highly impro bable that St. John's would possess any preponderance in the legislation. He was of opinion that the Government was bound to make up their mind at once, for there was no alternative now but to give the same benefits to this island as was possessed by the other colonies. The present state of the colony was one of peculiar hard ship ; and although the land was capable of extensive cultivation, imports, to a large amount, of potatoes had been made from the neighbouring provinces of Prince Edwards' Island, Nova Scotia, and even Ireland. An other very great disadvantage under which the people there laboured, was the present uncertainty of the law. Such was their situation that the officers were legislators and Judges, to make and then decide upon the law. Another part of the proposition he should submit, was to bring forward the long disputed question as to the rights of fishery in that colony belonging to British subjects, concur rently with the French, so that it might be settled. This was certainly of very great importance to that colony, and the inhabitants anxious for its settlement had, at their expence, fitted out a vessel to determine their rights. The Commander received instructions to persevere until forced to abandon what was called the French coast. He failed ; no French officer of authority was found in the port, but the French fishermen considering that they had the exclusive right of fishery would only permit him to fish there by courtesy. He stating his commands, that his object was to establish that right, was afterwards ejected and compelled by a French naval commander to quit the station and proceed to Labrador. This colony was of very great value to this country ; so much so that the great Lord Chatham used to say it was worth go ing to war for. He did not say so, but it was of consequence, and it was one of the articles of our treaty with France that Great Britain should hold that colony. He hoped the House would concur with him in the address he should move to his Majesty, although there was a party in this country who, though anxious to make all they could by trading thither, had nosympathywith the colonists. The colony had not hitherto given much trouble to this country, and did not look, like Canada and others, for any particular part of its produce. He hoped, therefore, that they would have legislation given to them over their own affairs. The Hon. Member concluded by moving an humble address to his Majesty, praying that he may be pleased to grant to the ancient and loyal colony of Newfoundland a Con stitutional Legislative Government, similar to those enjoyed by his ntjesty's North American colonies, and as nearly as possible in accordance with the principles of the British Constitution, praying also, that the right of the British subjects there, under existing treatie, might be ascertained. Mr. Dixost seconded the address. Lord HOWICK felt himself embarrassed both by the time and manner in which the Hon. Member had brought forwat d his motion. It was well known that this day had been re -served by the common consent of the House to be set apart for the object of receiving the report upon the Reform Bill. He was, therefore, under great difficulty in being called upon so inopportunely to decide such a question, or to vin dicate the policy which Ministers, in the short time they had been in office, had thought it their duty to pursue. The answer he had given to the Hon. Member on a former occasion, had given great satisfaction to the principal part of the kingdom which had the greatest commercial con nexion with Newfoundland. To his knowledge it had not been a long time that the Hon. Member himself had been able to make up his mind upon the propriety of what he ❑ow advised, and the House might, therefore, very justly infer that the question had been fraught with difficulties, land that it had not been very long that the colonists had been in a state to receive a legislative assembly. It was not unreasonable that he should ask the Hon. Member to postpone his motion for the present Session. The recent Acts under which Newfoundland had been governed, al though they had not answered every exigency, had, ne vertheless, greatly benefitted the colony. It was true that they had required modifications, and be was per fectly ready to acknowledge that the time bad arrived in which the people of Newfoundland must be intrusted with a considerable share in the administration of their own affairs, and in the next Session of Parliament the subject would of necessity be brought before the House by the expiration of the existing laws. There was a difficulty in funning any system that would not tend to throw the whole power into the bands of the people of St. John's, to the prejudice of other parts of the colony. The inha liitants of Newfoundland were so scattered, that it was impossible for them to have any share in the representa tion. In 1827 the total number of permanent resident inhabitants were 36,000, and of these only 11,900 were resident at St. John's, and the remainder were distributed in a great number of villages and places of which the po pulation was individually very small. Between sixty and seventy of those small places contained more than two •thirds o f the inhabitants, and they were cut off from all commu nication with St. John's for six months of the year. The Governor of Newfoundland was shortly to come over to this country, and his local information would assist his Majesty's Ministers in the inquiries which they felt it their duty to pursue, before they came to a final adjustment of the question. For these reasons be thought the Hon. Member ought not to prejudice the subject by pressing the motion, and he should feel it his duty to move the previous question. Sir JOHN NEWPORT was extremely anxious for the attainment of the object which the motion had in view; but he felt that the attainment of that object would be very much promoted by withdrawing the motion for the present. Mr. HUME considered the proposition involved in his lion. Friend's motion to be one of so simple and obvious a nature, and one, t' )6, ED unobjectionable in principle, that he could not well see on what grounds a Ministry, professing liberal principles, and the majority of the mem bers of which bad already expressed a decided opinion in favour of that principle, could withhold their assent front it. For, what was the proposition? Simply that the inhabitants of Newfoundland, numbering at least 80,000, should, by their own representative L.lislature, superintend the management of their own domestic affairs at their own ,xpense.-I,Elear.) The expense of the present vicious system, which was admitted by the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer by his vote of last year in favour of a mo tion similar to that then before the House to be quite in adequate to the wants and interests of the colony, cost the country something like 30,0001. a year, for some years hack, and even this Session 12,0001. had been voted for the charge of the Newfoundland Government ; all of which would be saved to the country by the motion of his Hon. Friend, besides that an important colony would be permitted, toe the first time, to participate in the ad vantages of good government. But, says the Noble Lord (How ick,) there are local difficulties in the way of his Hon. Friend's motion which rendered it expedient for the house to pause before they sanctioned it ; and besides, the merchants of Poole were opposed to it. But surely these difficulties were not insurmountable ; the rather, when they had experience of the ease and advantages of bestowing local Legislatures in islands and colonies far in ferior in population—Neves and St. Mitt's, for example, with their population of from 8,000 to Io,ooo—to New. foundland. Wherever there was a local Legislature the beneficial results were seen in an efficient, and cheap, and *elf-defraying Government. Mr. C. FERGUSSON was friendly to the principle of the taotion, but not prepared, in the absence of full infor mation, to act upon it at once. He therefore would sug gest to his Hon. Friend to withdraw his motion in its pre- Aer.t form, and give notice of an early day for referring the whole subject to a Select Committee of Inquiry.--(Hear.) Lord ALTHORP need not remind the House that there wis a great difference between a motion for a Committee of inquiry and that before the House. With respect to the the latter, all he could say was, that as a member of the Government be could not assent to it, because in bin oth. dal capacity he was aware that the subject was at that mo ment, and had been for some time, under the anxious i con sideration of Ministers, who expected to be able , if not n the present, certainly in the next session, to come forward with a measure granting the colony of Newfoundland all such representative and civil institutions as were compatible with their colonial existence and that local circumstances could permit.—(Hear.) There might be a difference of opinion as to the means or form by which they hoped to attain this desirable object, as well as a dif ference between their machinery and that proposed by the Hon. Member, but the end that both had in view was, lie was sure, precisely the same.—(Hear.) With such !nten tions, therefore, on the part of the Government, it was plain that the Hon. Member's motion would be, to say the least, supererogatory. As to the suggestion for a Select Committee, however, he did not entertain the same objec tion, and therefore should the Hon. Member, on due no tice, move for such a Committee, he would not offer to it any opposition on the part of Ministers.—(Hear.) Mr. LABOUCHERE trusted a broad view of the sub ject in all its bearings would be taken, and that Ministers would not he unduly influenced by the one-sided statements of Judges and Governors. Lord HOWICK agreed with his lion. Friend, and had only to add, in explanation, that all his objections were as to a question of time founded on local difficulties. Mr. O'CONNELL took the same view of the subject as the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and could not but feel thankful to Ministers for their promise of a better govern ment of Newfoundland. Mr. C. PELHAM conceived the present one of the most important subjects that could come under their con sideration, and was glad that it was viewed in the same light by the House and Ministers. The fishery banks of Newfoundland would form a mine of colonial and national wealth, under a, good system of government. Mr. BURGE could nut but lament the extreme igno r time which the Noble Under Colonial Secretary's speech displayed, of not only the localities of Newfoundland, but of the most familiar facts and principles in our colonial policy. The very objection which the Noble Lord raised to granting Newfoundland a Representative Assembly, founded on the circumstance of the distance of the two chief towns of the island, applied to every colony in our possession which enjoyed such a local Legislature.—(Hear.) And then, if nine months were not enough to determine the best form of representative Legislature for that island, with what face could Ministers complain of the delay of a couple of months as to the far more important measure of a new Constitution then in progress in that House? Mr. ROBINSON felt this difficulty in withdrawing his motion as suggested—as it seemed to be the sense of the House—that the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer had given no pledge, on the part of Ministers, that they would in the next Session take it upon themselves to ac complish the object. —( Hear.) If, therefore, the Noble Lord pledged himself, that if on consideration it should appear inexpedient to Ministers to propose the intro duction of a local Legislature into the colony of Newfound land, he would next Session consent, on the part of Mi nisters, to his (Mr. Robinson's) obtaining a Committee of Inquiry into the subject, he would withdraw his present motion; but without such a pledge he felt it due to him self to press his motion. Lord ALTHORP could not pledge himself to any p ir ticular plan or measure with respect to Newfoundland ; but would repeat that Ministers would next Session feel it their duty to propose a measure extending to that colony as much freedom as was compatible with local circum stances.—(Hear, hear.) If that measure should fail in its object, then there would he no hesitation to the ap pointment of a Committee to inquire into the circum stances or causes of that failure.—( Hear.) Mr. ROBINSON hail every confidence in the Noble Lord's declaration, and therefore would withdraw his motion. He must observe, however, that the Noble Un der Colonial Secretary had passed over his remarks with respect to the claims of the French to concurrent right of fishery. Loid HOWICK said his silence proceeded from inad vertence. All the answer he could then give was, that the subject was under discussion between the English and French Governments. The motion was then withdrawn. On the motion of Mr. Huata a return was ordered of the copy of the report of the Commissioners of Inquiry on the Universities of Scotland ; also a copy of the report of Mr. Richards to the Colonial Office, touching the Crown lands of, and emigration to, Canada; and returns of the number of emigrants from the United Kingdom to the United States, the North American colonies, the Cape of Good Hope, the Swan River, New South Wales, and Van Dieman's Land, within the last seven years,—specify ing the number to each colony, place whence they sliled, and other particulars. Lord ALTHORP doubted very much if the means ex isted for producing these last returns. If there did, lie had no objection to the motion. Mr. HUME said the Act of George IV., regulating ernigi ation, contained a provision which rendered the pro duction of the returns a matter of comparative facility. The motion was then granted. REFORM OF PARLIAMENT (ENGLAND) BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that in rising to move the order of the day for the consideration of the report on the English Reform Bill, it might perhaps be convenient to the House if he now proceeded to call its attention to two or three points in the Bill, on which it would be ne cessary to make some alterations. The first point which it was necessary to alter had relation to the description of places. The House would recollect that when the Bill was originally brought in, the Commissioners had no powers given them to divide parishes or counties : That intention having been abandoned, and the Commissioners now Laving the power to divide counties, and to add to any county outlying portions of the same county, and to incorporate with boroughs any parishes lying within a certain distance, it became matter of convenience to alter the words " township or parishes," wherever they oc curred in the Bill, into " towns." He would give an in stance of what lie meant—in one case where " the parish" of Brightlielinstone was mentioned in the Bill, he proposed to alter it into " the town" of Brightliehnstone. Another point, which arose in the Committee, was a question as to the period when the registration should begin ; and his Noble Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) wishing to fix upon some determinate period had filled up the blank with the " Ist of November." Now it was quite evident that the registration could not take place at that time. It was therefore necessary to fix some other period. His Majesty's Ministers were of opi nion that the Commissioners would not be engaged three months in accomplishing the work assigned to them, in consequence of the information which had been collected from them by means of that circular which had excited so much of the eloquent indignation of the Hon. and Learned Member for Aldborough. Still it would be necessary to give a sufficient time fur the reception of their report be fore the occurrence of the day of registration. He there fore intended to propose that, instead of " the Ist of November," " the Ist of February" should be inserted in the Bill as the day on which the registration was to begin. That alteration of the date would also render the alteration of some other dates a matter of necessity. It was provided in the Bill that all the poors' rates and as sessed taxes which should have become due previously to the Ist day of July in the present year should be paid up previous to registration, where the right of voting was in respect of rent, in order to enable the voter to commence registration on the 2lst of August. his Majesty's Mini sters thought that it would answer their object as well if the 6th day of April were inserted instead of the Ist day of July. There was also a proviso which Ministers pro posed to add to the Bill, on a point on which the Hon. Member for Worcester shire had asked him (Lord J .Russell) a question in the Committee, and that related to the power of the sheriff to hire a house for election purposes, in stead of erecting booths. The sheriff would in future have the power to hire a house, or to erect a booth to take the poll, as he might think expedient. There was no other point in the Bill which Government wished to alter in bringing up the report. There was, however, a question of grave importance still left behind, on which he understood that his Noble Friend the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had given a pledge, during the period when he (Lord J. Russell) was absent from the House from indisposition. That question related to the representation of Wales. It was urged by several gentle men in the Committee that there were several large coun ties in Wales without any adequate representation. When that point was brought under the consideration of the Committee, his Noble Friend had pledged himself that it should be taken into consideration. It had accordingly been taken into consideration, and his Majesty's Govern ' went had found that there were four counties in Wales distinguished as possessing a considerable population. There were, however, only two counties to which his Ma jesty's Ministers had deemed it necessary to add one repre sentative. The counties were Glamorganshire, to the re presentation ef which one Member had been already added ; Pembrokeshire, which had a population of 74,000 souls, but to which it was not intended to give any representa tive, as that county hid already gained by the Bill two districts of boroughs, each returning one Member ; Car inarthenshire and Denbighshire of which the former possessed 96,000, and the latter 76,000 inhabitants. To these two last counties Ministers now proposed to give one Member 'ach. As they bad now added two Members to the coun:y representations, Ministers, in conformity with the principles on which they bad acted throughout this Bill, now proposed to give two representatives to two large commercial towns. One of these towns was in Lanca shire, and had been rated under its real worth ; it W 39 Ashton-under-Line. The other was connected with the great clothing district of Gloucestershire, and was Stroud and Minchinhampton. Ministers did not intend to make this addition to the Bill on bringing up the report. He mentioned it at present as a notice, that he would upon the third reading of the Bill move that a clause be added to it by way of rider, making this addition to the places already gifted by this Bill with the privileze of returning Members to Parliament. He had no other alterations to make in the Bill,—no further observations to offer to the House at this stage of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GOULBURN said, that as the alterations and ad ditions which the Noble Lord had announced his intention of proposing on the third reading of the Bill were of very material importance, he wished to be informed what day the Noble Lord intended to fix for the third reading of the Bill. Lord ALTHORP would not waste the time of the House in disputing whether these alterations were material or not. He agreed, however, with the Right Hon. Gen tleman in thinking that it was very material that they should fix a day for the third reading. That day must of course depend on the time occupied in considering the re port. He hoped, however, that the House would be able to get through the report so as to be able to take the third reading of the Bill on Monday next.--(Hear, hear, ) Mr. CROKER took credit to himself for some of the amendments which the Noble Lord bad now intended to introduce into the Bill. He bad always thought that they ought to limit the power a the Commissioners by defining what they wished to have done. He therefore hailed with great satisfaction the accession of the Noble Lord to his proposition of having " the town of" Brighton inserted in the Bill, inste id of " the parish of" Brighton. The Noble Lord had mentioned that this alteration would ex tend to other parts of the Bill. Why not to all of it? Lord ALTHORP gave a reply, of which every word was inaudible in the gallery. Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was a very proper al teration as to Brighton ; but there were many instances in which this alteration could not be applied. Sir C. WETHERELL contended that the alteration of the dates in the Bill was a very important alteration in deed, and required time to ascertain its effects. Mr. GOULBURN wished the Noble Lord would insert is the Bill at once all the amendments and alterations which he intended to make. It had been altered over and over again at every stage, and be must say that he should like to see it in a complete shape once before he gave a final opinion upon it.—(Hear, bear.) Mr. CROKER suggested that the Bill should be recom mitted pro forma, in order to have the necessary altera tions made in it. It might then be reprinted in time for the third reading of the Bill. Lord ALTHORP thought that such a course might be desirable, if any thing more than verbal alterations were going to he made in the Bill. At present he saw no ne cessity for it. Sir C. WETHERELL was of opinion, that the crea tion of four additional representative districts was some thing more than a verbal alteration of the Bill. Four new boroughs had sprung up since the Bill left the Com mittee, and he had no guarantee that the other four might not spring up in the interval between the present stage and the third reading of the Bill. In answer to a question from Mr. C. Wynsr, Lord ALTHORP stated, that the registration, com mencing on the Ist of Ftbruary, would not be complete till the last day of April. Sir G. MURRAY asked the Noble Lord opposite, whe• ther he intended to apply the same rule to the Scotch county representation which he had applied to the Welsh. He particularly wished for an immediate answer to this question, because, on account of the distance of Scotland from the metropolis, it was necessary to give the inha bitants of Scotch counties ample time to make such repre sentations as they might think expedient on this subject, not only to his Majesty's Government, but also to that House. Lord ALTHORP's answer was almost inaudible. We understood him to reply in the negative to the question, and to assert that the cases of Scotland and Wales were very different. It was not intended to make any altera tion in this part of the Scotch Reform Bill. If the Scotch counties had any representations to make upon this subject they might make them now. The Noble Lord had made some remarks about the Act of Union between England and Scotland, and the long incorporation of Wales with England ; but we could not collect their im port from the detached portions of them which reached the gallery. Mr. C. FERGUSSON contended, that by this last alteration a greater share of representation was given to Wales than was given to Scotland. As the Noble Lord had thought fit to allude to the Act of Union between England and Scotland, he would beg leave to remind the Noble Lord, that by that Act there were to be thirty Scotch county Members. This Bill reduced the number to twenty .eight.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition. ) The Hon. Member then gave notice of his intention to propose some verbal alterations, which he described, in the 42d clause, which renders the accuracy of the register questionable before a Committee of the House of Commons [The technical mode in which this alteration was pro ' posed—namely, by propo , iog to strike out certain words now in the chose, and to insert others in their stead— prevented us. from clearly understanding either the letter or the substance of it.l Lord ALTHORP expressed his readiness to accede to this alteration. Mr. HUNT and Mr. Hume severally suggested that the Bill ought to contain a clause r e ndering it necessary that a notice should be affixed to the church door of every pa rish, informing the voters of the district and booth in which they were to give their votes. Lord ALTHORP was of opinion that the Bill, in its present shape, sufficiently marked the place and district in which each voter was to give his suffrage. Mr. A. BARING put some questions to Lord Althorp respecting the Commissioners. Were they to act under the guidance of this Bill alone, or were they to receive in structions from his Majesty's Government ? Lord ALTHORP said that the whole body of Commis. sioners would decide upon the instructions to be given to the different sections, into which they might afterwards divide themselves. Government had given no instructions to the Commissioners, and did not intend to interfere with their proceedings. The order of the day for the taking the report into consideration was then read. The SPEAKER said, that in order to ensure regu larity, he wished to remind the House that no amend ments could be made upon the report until the question was put, that the amendments of the Committee be read a second time. The question " That the amendments be now read a second time" was then put, whereupon a conversation ensued as to the order in which the proposed amend ments of Hon. Members should be put from the chair, and it was finally arranged that the amendments should be severally proposed according to the order in which they stood in the Bill. A number of verbal amendments were then read, seria tim, and agreed to, On the 10/. qualification clause, Mr. TREVOR was proceeding to move, that the house hold franchise in and round London, and in all commer cial and manufacturing towns, be raised from 101. to 201., when— The SPEAKER informed the Hon. Member that his amendment was irregularly proposed at that stage of the proceedings as it would properly come in as a proviso at the end of the clause. After some further vet hal amendments had been read and a greed to, On that part of the 22d clause being read which limits the right of voting in cities and boroughs to persons who, shall have resided for six months in, or within seven miles of, such city or borough next previous to the time of voting. Mr. TREVOR moved that this be extended to a dis tance of twenty miles. This produced a desultory conversation, in which Lord Althorp, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Hughes Hughes, Lord John Russell, Colonel Sibthorpe, Mr. Goulburn, and some Members whose names we did not learn, took a part. T o give a connected account of the observations of these Hon. Members would be impossible, as the far greater part of them were not heard in the gallery. In the result Mr. Trevor agreed to make his amendment fifteen miles. On this the House was about to divide, and the gager) , was partially cleared, when Mr. CROKER concurred in the amendment ; hut con sidering that the subject had been already fully discussed in the Committee, and considering also the state of the House and the state of business, and of the season, lie did hope that his Hon. Friend would not again debate and divide on questions which had already occupied the atten tion of the Committee so long. Mr. A. BARING asked how were they to understand seven miles distant? Was it to be from the place of taking the poll, or from any part of the borough ? Lord ALTHORP said it was intended to be seven miles from any part of the city or borough. Mr. TREVOR would adopt the suggestion of his Right Hon. Friend, and not press his amendment. The amendment was then withdrawn, and the " seven miles" allowe I to stand part of the clause. The other parts of the clause were agreed to after a few remarks from Mr. C. W. WYNN and Lord ALTHORS, which were not heard in the gallery. On the question that the names of the Commissioners for dividing the counties, and fixing places of eleciion, &c., stand part of clause 23, Mr. CROKER said, that he had very strong objec tions, not of a personal nature, but on public grounds, to many of the individuals named as the Commissioners, but as he had had no opportunity heretofore of making his ob jection in the Committee—an opportunity, however, of which, in consequence of a temporary absence, he did not avail himself,—but as he had had the the opportunity, he did not think that his absence, when that part of the subject was discussed, would justify him now in raising a debate on this port of the clause. He row., therefore, not to enter upon the subject now, but to protest against his silence being considered as implying an approval of the choice of the Commissioners in some instances, or against its being understood that he should thereby be precluded from adverting to the subject at a future stage of the Bill, when, by common consent, the:e was to be a general discussion of the whole measure. He hoped that at th it period he should not be thrown hack, and told that he had let the time pass when his ob jections would have come more regularly on the bringing up of the report. He preferred urging his objections on the third reading, when he should take a review of the whole measure. Lord LTHORP sid it would be competent to the right Hon. Gentleman to make his objection at the third reading. Colonel SIBTHOHPE objected to any Members of that House being named as Commissioners. Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that of the two Members selected, one had voted for the second reading of the Bill, and the other aga;nst it. Sir R. VYVYAN said, as he had promised to vote for a motion of the Hon. Member for Lincoln which stood for to-morrow, he did not know whether that Hon. Member intended to move it that evening. He certainly concurred with him in thinking that no Member of that House ought to be placed on the commission. To enact that any Mem ber of that House should be appointed by the Bill to carry sarh an important part of it into effect,—to have the power of deciding who should or who should not have a right to vote, was a proposition so glaring and flagrant, as in his opinion had never before been submitted to Parliament. He did not look to the power which they were to have of making a geographical division of counties, for much of that was already effectrd ; but his great objection was, that any Members of that House, or that any commission, should have the power of deciding who were or who were not the persons who should have the right of voting in the places adjacent to cities or boroughs. It would scarcely be be , heved, that in legislating on the formation of a new Con stitution, such an anomaly as this was allowed to pass. He had hitherto abstained from taking any prominent pat t . . in this 88, because he believed that Ministers would never be able to carry it, or to make it a permanent mea sure. If they had wished for a sound plan of Reform, they might have one more general and simple,—one em bracing more of the property of the country. The p'an t'►ey had proposed was full of the most glaring anomalies, but none were greater than that of naming a commission, to say who should or who should not have the right of voting. He would state his belief that this Bill would never pass into a law.—(Cheers from the Opposition, echoed from the Ministerial benches.) But if it should pass, it would be by resorting to measures so strong as had never before been resorted to for any political purpose ; but unless the principle of vote-making on which this commission was founded were extended to the higher places, unless the plan of faggot votes were adopted, the Bill would never pass.—(Cheers.) But if this were adopted, what would be the opinion of the country 1 When inquiry should be made, why this man and the other had been raised from what they were to what they should have become, and to what, from the very nature 01 the circumstances out of which the change in their station had arisen, they could not long enjoy,—the answer would he, that they were faggot votes, that they were faggot Peers (as we understood the Hon. Member, who, from his position nearly under the gallery, was at times but imper fectly heard), who were made for a particular purpose, and whe could not be expected to enjoy their elevation for more than a year or two. For, as he had already observed, from the very circumstances out of which the change had been made with respect to them, it was not to be expected that they could long continue to enjoy their new station. He repeated his conviction that, without some faggot• votes elsewhere, the Bill would never pass ; and even then, if it did, it would be necessary to have another Bill, to give the people that which this Bill professed to give, hut which it would never confer—a full, fair, and free repre sentation in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) The name of the Right Hon. J. Abercromhy was then put as one of the Commissioners, and agreed to. On the name of Air. Littleton being put, _ . a . - Colonel SIBTHORPE moved that the names of the Member for Staffordshire (Mr. Littleton), the Member for Bodtnin (Mr. D. Gilbert), and that of J. Wrottesley, Esq. be omitted from the list of Commissioners. Lord INGESTRIE seconded the motion. Lord J. RUSSELL said the reason why the Hon. Members alluded to were appointed was, that as questions would arise on the decisions of the Commissioners, it would be extremely convenient that some of them should he present who could explain the grounds on which these decisions had been made. The reason why the Hon. Mem ber for Staffordshire was named was, that he was a person who could apply his mind most usefully to the object of the commission. Another person whom it was proposed to omit was Mr. Davies Gilbert, who had lately been Pre sident of the Royal Society—a man more eminent in this country and in foreign countries for his scientific pursuits, than for any degree of party zeal or party spirit.—(Hear.) These were not the only Members they had proposed. 01 these two, one had been in favour of the Bill, the other opposed to it, though not with the violence or vehemence of others. Another, who was a decided opponent of the Bill, and who it was intended to name as a Commissioner, was the Hon. Member for Radnor (Mr. T. F. Lewis), who alter considering the matter for some time told him (Lord J. Russell) that he did not like to undertake the office, as he had expressed a strong opinion regarding the Bill, and in tended to oppose it at a future stage. It was an ac cusation against his Majesty's Ministers that they did not put persons in the commission who opposed the Bill, he answered that they had proposed a person who was not friendly to the 1111. There was another gentleman, not a Member of that House, whom it would have been a great omission on their part if they had not proposed to take part in the commission—Mr. Sturges Bourne ; but he had expressed his determination (however he might be disposed to co-operate in a public object like this) not to take any part iu the commission. Some gentleman had said that the Commissioners were persons generally favourable to the Bill ; but although they might be per sons favourable to what was termed a liberal line of po licy, he did not, therefore, conclude that they would take part in any party politics, in favour of one party or another, or that they were men likely to swerve from what they honestly thought was most practicable and ex pedient for the country in the division of counties. If the Hon. Member for Launceston meant to make any charges against the Commissioners, he begged to say that he was ready to meet those charges, and he would contend that the great respectability and integrity of the gentlemen in the list rendered them as fit to discharge the duty as any persons who could be proposed.—(Hear.) They were the persons whom Ministers bad proposed, and the House armth of B i bß n ya. r i avo t s :pevrt d ye deliberate pres ) entiment Nn ht j rey u ov d l fay g sa : m it d ; a n .at t y rn w oefi a te s i eht the hi i'srt Parliament,ndh ee e to a lion. m a declama tion, e o o m m i i: a l d ia iiu d st r tee e or m en, i si n ta d i teudenim prognostication,ti s m o whatf ,j,h i hoar as esnaeNivtda was influenced bins (Sir which e fit to attack them, as Ministers of the Crown, id' o 'fit n iume‘ t v‘nuv i i m gc' e ieeti s ii: e tl; nominations, though he seemed to have forgotten what other Members more temperate and sedate had been aware of—that these Commissioners had not the absolute power of deciding the boundaries of the counties ; that their office was merely to make a report, and on the adoption of that report by both Houses of Parliament, and an address to his Majesty, those boundaries and limits would be settled, not at the will and pleasure of the Commissioners, but by the deliberate adoption of their report, and its confirmation by his Majesty and both Houses of Parliament. The Hon. Baronet had travelled into other subjects, and de nounced other prognostications. Those were questions into which he (Lord J. Russell) did not think fit, on the pre sent occasion, to follow him. If the Hon. Baronet said that this Bill would not pass, that was his affirmation, which he would meet with an affirmation on the other hand, that the Bill would pass.—(A loud cheer burst from the House, which was echoed front the gallery, with a slight clapping of hantls, upon which one of the messen gers placed in the Members' gallery, intimated that the strangers' gallery would be cleared if this act of indecorum were repeated.) " The difficulties," continued the Noble Lord, " I admit, are still great, but time feeling of the c ri o e u w n e t d rv eh in favour of theeers.)it trust, t ß h i e l r l e c o o r t e m , tiue a n sw s el u l n t a o bae th t e d—( inherent le t merits of the Bid—(" Ott, oh," from the Opposition)— as to its adoption by the country, that I shall see this Bill soon pass into a law ; and I will not be seduced"by any re marks or allusions which the Hon. Baronet may make, in the summit and height of his indiscretion, to enter into discussions as to what will be the fate of the Bill in the other House of Parliament, where, when it shall have passed this House, it will go to receive tbst consideration which it will deserve, seeing that it will csol e from a House of Commons elected by the people,- cal i f d ' t as they had been, to elect a House of Commons on a"'; special ground. I say, coming from a House of Colni t°. " l so elected, where this Bill has received a deliberate so 1i s4leration, I am sure it will obtain in the other House Oaf consideration which is due to a question of the Reforal o f the House of Commons, supported by such authority; a t ' coming from such a body, backed by the feelings of tbe country—(No, no)—and lam sure, much as the Bill hs, l been maligned here, much as the Hon. Bironet and friends have tried to vilify it, and to diminish the betel, wh . cli we soy will flow from this measure, that a n'' j which has obtained the approbation of the House of Coo' th mons, of the Government, and of the country, deserves be passed into a law."--(Cheers.) • of Sir R. VYVYAN ro,-e, but was interrupted by elle' - Spoke," " Order," " Questiosi." c 4 The SPEAKER said the question was, whether th e its name of Edward John Littleton stand part of the clause. S:r R. VYVYAN again attempted to speak, but 0' to , 111, called to order. The SPEAKER said that it was a question, not 1 la order, but of recollection. If the Hon. Baronet spoken after the question had been put, he had not a right ht to speak again. If he had spoken before it, he had a righ t ' lit The Hon. Member knew which was the fact. Sir R. VYVIAN sail, that after the personal adds' c os sions of the Noble Lord, which he thought had been u°e St called for—(Hear, hear)—lie had some claim upon tl't al House. He (Sir R. Vyvyan) had spoken to generalstl to the Noble Lord to individuals. If he (Sir R. Vyvya n ' had lost the confidence of the majority of those whorn had formerly represented, lie had a right to speak for th e it thousand who voted for him when he was reject . tin Claiming as great a share of independence as the Nob le Lord, or as any Member, let his constituency be ever : I ° large, he should do his duty regardless of his taunts ; a° although, in speaking of this Bill, and this most tin,_ e cessary clause, he had been tempted to say more than " had intended to say, lie should not allow that it was 13 act of indiscretion.—( Hear. ) With resp , ct to this clause[ he asked why should any engineer be appointed ? What had k erg neers to do with the constitution of Parliament ? thing more absurd and childish than the appointmen t ° an engineer for this purpose, be never heard. As to ti le a:meal, which the Noble Lord said had been made to til t i. 4 j b country, he knew that such appeal had been made by ""; Majesty's Ministers, accompanied by such a plan of a lters' t tient in the representation of the people as had never be e° d ' seen before. Under these circumstances, could there be ant doubt, at the time of the appeal, what the effect wo o! I , e ?—(A laugh.) The moment be heard of i t he tl was persuaded that they would carry any Bill b°i that kind in that manner. This might be a it' i „ t jest of congratulation to his Majesty's Ministers, b'i t they would find they had raised a spirit NO'', t ' they could never satisfy.—(ll e ar, h e ar.) But the No lPe Lord said lie (Sir R. Vyvyan) had indulged in progrO ti ; cations. Why did Ministers bring this Bill forward' h Because they said, there was no alternative but Refort t' or revolution; and if the Bill was carried, all would " peace and tranquillity. Was there no prognostication to that? The Noble Lord said they had appealed to the people ; but to wh a t p eo pl e ? Why, to p e opl e cons id ers` nfit for the exercise of the elective franchise ; and at b : future time they m i g ht b e reconc il e d t o o th er change', ) being told that this Bill was the act of a corrupt Part' s ' inent—a Parliament which declared itself c orrupt.l (Hear.) In th e l as t P ar li amen t h e h a d sa id that it ir s ; his intention to p ro p ose some measure o f R e i m m : th it measure might have been,—whether the enfranch ise ' went of large towns, or the disfranchisement of what 0 14 called rotten boroughs,—he had not made up his mind : be should have been guided by the opinion of that Houk But the appeal had been made ; the King's Ministers bl set themselves at the head of a movement which b a never been seen bef ore i n th e c ountry.—(Hear.) T be , line was, therefore, past for resisting a change in t h ; ' representation ; h u t it was now th e o bj ec t o f those 1 0 were anxious for the saf e ty o f th e country, to introdurl principle of perm anenc y— a stem of Reform which show ' not oblige Parliament to quail before a seditious assetrib l Y " ' but provide some security to property, and to the reinai e te ing instituti o ns o f th e countr y. Thi s w a s his apology I°r saying that he wo u ld g o t o a much greater extent 0 Reform than before this Bill had been introduced. Bill now before the House contained as many anornab' as the old system which was complained of ; and no instance were those snout dies more gross and grant than in the clause under consideration. It vi r, no doubt satisfactory to gentlemen who approved of t'' , l Bill to hear that it would p i ss, an d rece i ve the R°Y, assent, and some wer e l e d t o hu g then's...lves with th` idea that they could terrify those Whom they could it' t persuade. This was the course pursued by the organs of the House, by the use of language which might ;, o termed seditious. It waswasdifficult to say that the P' would not pass ire a law : he believed the power W r , now in the hands of his Majesty's Government, and t he ', were charged with a more fearful responsibility than 0 , 7 Government : he believed the power was in their ba nds[ and they might decide by a single dash of the pen srb e i tiler it should pass into a law or not. Ministers incu rrt , a terrific responsibility, and they should take care they annihilated a body they attempted to increase. P , feared they did not perceive the position—the tremendou: position—in which they stood at the present it - 1 0/nel Let persons of high rank, however high their rank a l ' t power might be, bear in mind that that rank and power were supported by those who considered th e .' existed for the advantage of the country, not for thede selves ; it was possessed by the few for the benefit of the many. If lie had no other reason for making the`'' r f, marks than what was now passing on the other side of 0 ; water, they were sufficiently justified. This appeared of be a time when change and innovation were domin t ', from one end of Europe to the other. The Hon. Biro oe j concluded by observing, that not one of those who 14 ,, been returned to support the Bill, had voted for the vrb ° ,o l Bill, so greatly had it been changed ; whilst some b been rejected by their constituents for merely suggeat'') that it required consideration.—(Hear.) Those who 14 ' voted agai ns t th e D u k e o f W e lli ng t on ' s G overnme nt, e s :, pectin s Lord Grey to com e i n , l oo k e d f or some measo l " of Reform, but not such a measure as this.—(Question .) f Mr. H. GURNEY was not a much greater a dmirer!, the Bill than th e Hon. Baronet himself ; but if count i ` . were to be divided, it must he done by some one, and e r , perience s h owe d th a t th e H ouse o f C ommons was not t ilt best to und er t a k e th e d u t y . I t was i m p oss ibl e th a t a fair e r list could he drawn out. It hail no political compleai°o °; and two of the Commissioners were decided opponents the Bill. Mr. BARING rose amidst so much noise in the 11 0 , s to ion th er e s in w d as ivi e d n u o a r l i s r:ou b s ut an o i n l l u y n t l o wa t r i t! e and the g a ll er y, th a t we cou ld no t h ea r him but imperfer ti t He contended th a t th e p ower con f erre d up o n the Coniin l6 ; their hands. Mr. HUNT th oug ht it wou ld b e b e tt er if Members°, Parliament were l e ft o ut o f th e comm i s si on; it would J. of. gt. e a t H i e tmderniootdgoehjj eico more satisfactory to the country. The Noble Lord spoken,in rather a high tone, when he said, not indeed t i ll the Bill should pass, but something near it,—that the would pass. Notwithstanding this high tone, and 111 _ , declaration that the feeling of the country was still ,Y warns as ever in favour of the Bill, he (Mr. Hunt)► prepared to state that the opinion of the country wa s ' 11) 1 , so warm as it had been—(Hear, and oh)—that the poP t , were not so anxious about the Bill as they were at fir% He would now ask his Majesty's Ministers whether the'; had read what appeared in the leading journal of y ester' day.—(Hear, bear, and a laugh.) He would ask thes: whether they were of opinion that that was the sc'f of language and the tone to be taken by a journal p r° ,:, teasing itself to be under the influence of his Maje,t)r Minister ? —(Laughter.) The Noble Lord, the °Mil night, referring to a statement of his (Mr. Hunt's) by eb ' called it a most mons t rous pro p os iti o n. He would asi , Noble Lord if th a t l anguage an d those threats to the a t! ;,4 House were the most likely way to effect his object laugh.) He (Mr. Hunt) could enter into the feeling, i f noble-minded and honourable men—(Laughter)° 3 t, he was a Peer of Parliament—(Laughter)—as he was n f and never would be—(Laughter)—if he was a Membe r , ttr that Nobl e h ouse ,—(L aug ht e r) —and heard, day a o day, threats from the Press, and the remarks in House, even if he had given his consent to the Bill lici ° ,;,; he would s t an d u p an d o pp o se it.—(Hear.) Nothing t'„; ) the bullies of the Press said against him should deter ill a from his duty. He hoped the Bill would pass.—(A laugh.)—He did not care if it did not.—(A loud laugh. ) What be rose to say was, that if this question came W t. ) division, he should vote against Ministers.—(A 13 " 1 ,,) He did not care whether the Bill passed or not.—(A la ere fie did not anticipate much good from it, whatever o might. Mr. 11. GRATTAN defended the appointment of tb Commissioners. Mr. GOULBURN said, that it would not be bec ° , that any Member of that House who had taken a P Sr re the debates and:the discussions on this measure s hould ''" o . imposed upon him the delicate—he would not all it , constitutional—duty which it appeared those Cotot 1 simmers had to perform. He was quite ready to adoli t the Hun. Member for Staffordshire was a ge ntle most unexceptionable character, but he would con tend ' ell in the selection of those Commissioners they should WV) that rindlouse ti!ustion whe su.pieion I . the. Bill, or ointment of A ch they rn • Lord AL " TH o tto.t v . ,k'c tlfk A 4 1k 4 1k I tt " hid ht4 rb i 't) 144(1