The Sun. — London, England, 1861-04-20 00:00:00

the spiritual head of the Catholics throughout the world, it cannot be desirable that her Majesty's Governmenh oui d take the initiative. (Hear, hear.) Not merely would such a proceeding involve us in discussions which we are not the most capable of conducting, but any proposal that we might make, even though the proposal might be good in itself, would not be likely to be received with favour by the Catholic Powers of Burgle°. The noble earl pointed out the possibility, as he thinks, of some arrangement by which the temporal sovereignty of the Pope might be dis connected from his spiritual authority, but the difficulties si hick would beset such an agreement between the Catho lic Powers must be apparent to your lordship, and if, in addition, the question were to be discussed by the Protes• tent Powers, I am sure no ingenuity of man could bring about a solution of the question. (Hear, hear.) For these reasons, although her Majesty's Government certainly do not view with satisfaction the continuance of a state of things in which the independence of one of the States of Europe—l mean of those provinces which still remain nomi nally under the authority of the Pope—is entirely at an end, owing to the occupation of that territory by foreign troops,- I must yet decline to follow the noble lord through the dif ferent questions which he has raised. I cannot help observ ing that for many years the temporal authority of the Pope has altogether ceased to exist. Since the year 1819 the inde pendence of the Popo as a Sovereign has not existed for a single hour. His authority, which had been destroyed by that movement in 1848, the full effects of which we are feel ing at the present day, was only restored by the troops o France and Austria. As long as those troops remained in his territory, the sovereignty of the Popo was nominally sustained ; but on the day oa which the Austrian troops left the territory which they occupied, it ceased to be under even the nominal authority of the Pope, and it is notorious that on the day on which the French troops shall be withdrawn from Rome the sovereignty of the Popo will altogether cease in every part of his dominions. It is for this reason that the solution of the question immediately depends upon whether the French Government shall or shall not withdraw their trcorhs from Rome ; and it is clear that, while the reasons which may have induced the Emperor of the French to con tinue that occupation are reasons which it is not desirable that we should upon this occasion discuss in this house, there are, as the noble earl has pointed out, many arguments tending to prove that it would be far better policy to with draw those troops. Her Majesty's Government have not dis • guiied their opinion that it is desirable that those troops should be withdrawn; but it is clear that there are many other considerations which must have weight with Ca tholic Powers, and that although the matter has been much discussed, no one has yet pointed out any means by which, after the withdrawal of those troops, the spiritual authority of the Pope can be reconciled with his new po sition. Ido not say that that problem may not be solved, but it cert tinly is not for her Majesty's Government to devise the means of such a reconciliation. It seems that a most erroneous idea prevails in some portions of her Majesty's dominions, and in other parts of Europe, as to the part which her Majesty's Government have taken and are taking in these transactions ; because it is stated, and it is believed, I suppose, by some persons, that the chief object and end of the Government, especially of my noble friend who is at the head of the Foreign-office, has been to put an end to the authority of the Pope. It is supposed that he is the chief enemy of the head of the Catholic Church, ani that his aim throughout has been to undermine the authority of the Pope, and to place him in a situation in which that authority can no longer be maintained. All I can say is that her Majesty's Government have carefully abstained from taking a prominent part in the discussion of thoie questions which especially affect the Pope. The'ytake a deep interest in everything which relates to the Italian Peninsula, and they have used their moral influence to secure for the Italian people the opportunity of carrying out their Own views, but they have all along thought that it was not for a Protestant Power to take a prominent part in the dis cussion of questions relating to the head of the Catholic Church. (Hear.) As regards the ether portions of the noble earl's speech, I might be excused from entering at all upon the very important and very varied topics which he has dis cussed, more espdially upon that most important question as to the possession of Venetia by the Emperor of Austria. My lords, all that I can say upon that matter is that her Majesty's Government are most anxious—as anxious as the noble earl can be—that peace should be maintained. (Hear, hear.) The advice which they have given to each of the parties is, not to be the assailant ; and I am confident that he who is the assailant will not only incur a most grave and weighty responsibility, but will not receive the sympathy which the party who is attacked 'will always command. A great work has been begun and has been carried out in Italy,and I cannot help hoping that those Italian statesmen who ma- sway the destinies of that peninsula will be wise enough to see that time is required for the consolidation of i the fabric which they have constructed, and that if they can present to Europe the spectacle of an united people, peaceably working out their own independence, they will be doing more to promote the solution of those questions as to Rome and Venetia which they so ardently desire than they could accomplish by any attempt to destroy the present territorial arrangements of Europe. (Cheers.) The Earl of CLARENDON, to Whom the Earl of Derby gave way, said—Although 1 was fully prepared for the an swer which my noble friend has given to the noble earl opposite, I cannot help expreising my satisfact'on at learn ing that her Majesty's Government have not been em ployed in matters where I think their interference would be prejudicial, and my confident hope and expectation that they will adhere to the same prudent policy of leaving the settlement of the Roman question, which is essentially a Catholic question, to the Catholic Powers of Europe. At the same time, I must say that I entirely agree with the noble earl opposite in the speech which has been listened to with equal admiration on both sides of the house. I think that the Roman question is of vital impel tanee to Italy, and that Rome most certainly ought to be the capital of that country. If it be not, the differences between the various States will stand in the way of the uaity of Italy, whereas all the States would agree in choosing for the capital the city of Roma, which combines all the requisites, historical, religious, and local, for the capital of a great country, and which, moreover, has none of those municipal recollections which would interfere with the establishment of constitu tional government. But this can be effected only with the consent of France, and in consequence of the convictions of the Catholic Powers of Europe that, Rome being the capital of Italy, the independence of the Pope can be secured, and that the civil authorities would not interfere with spiritual matter?, or with the power and authority of the Church. I say that we could not interfere in such' questions as these without prejudice to the result at which we desire to arrive ; we could not help to settle either of those questions which must be solved before there is any chance of Rome being constituted the capital of Italy. We may address ourselves to the French Government ; we may express our desire, in terms as earnest as those which have been employed by the noble earl, that the French garrison should be withdrawn from Rome; W 3 may app al to the principle of non-intervention in the affairs of Italy which was volun tarily adopted by the Emperor himself; we may declare that as long as the Roman question is unsettled Italy will be unsettled, and that, as the noble earl has said, the dan ger of war will constantly be incurred; but, argue as we may, we shall not be able to disguise from ourselves that the question of Rome is a French almost as much as it is an Italian question, and that, with the grave political and religious considerations for France which it involves, the Emperor will claim to be the sole judge of what it is expedient to do in the interests of that country. (Hear, hear.) It is perfectly true, as the noble earl has said, that the expedition of 1849 was undertaken in order to repress democracy. It was a great error. It has proved a griev ous misfortune to the subjects of the Fope, and continues -to be a sore embarrassment to France. The French Go vernment were not slow in discovering the error of that expedition, because even while the Pope was still at Gaeta he positively rejected those administrative reforms which were proposed to him and refused to return to Rome except in the plenitude of the most unrestricted power which hgel been enjoyed by any of his predecessors. Upon that condition he returned. With that condition he has tolerated no interference, and for the past 12 years the French army has been the Roman police, the passive spec tators of act, which they have reprobated, and the respon sible protectors of the worst Government in Europe. I be lieve that the humiliation of the position of the French army at Rome has long been felt by the Emperor. (Hear, hear, from Lord Derby.) I believe that his desire to withdraw that army is perfectly sincere: There is abundant evidence of that in the papers which have been laid before the French Chambers, and in those despatches of M. Thouvenel which at the time they were written, were certainly not intended 'for publication. I believe that the Emperor 'Omitted General Lamoriciere to take service with the Pope in the expectation that he would organise a force sufficient to maintain tranquillity, without forelgu aid to secure the personal safety of the public, and to repress the Just discontent of the Pope's subjects ; and that if General Garibaldi's expedition to Sicily had been delayed for another °nth, th e F renc h garr i son would have been withdrawn 8 r :2_ 1101 31e. But, havin g re f erence t o t h e events which have eei `r i e, Zurred, particularly considering the feelings and which have recently been manifested in the French '''''Mb " B , and the natural impatience of the existing state Emperor Wei, tf t4 h e not oriously exists at Rome, I think that the withdraw Lie French may well say that if he were now to France but Cat t e pou from Rome, not al one C a th o li c sponsiblo for anyll E arope would hold hi m p ersona ll y re heult or i n j ury wh i ch the Pope might sustain. (H ear.) the Emperor will not i t . : , , Trefore, that we may be sure that hour sooner than he thinks that his forces from Rome one d h o at it will be safe for himself and ea.pedient for Prance tr ) unless, indeed, the Pope . wero spot tineously t 3 consent t 50 _unless, otalh that becoming the capital o f It a ly, and to the installetion of the Italian ecc,vernment and Parliament, vatztehroeihtsiptiontaneouslfto trenounce that by measures to praissented his unple.ees and *own independence would be secured, and th e powers of the Church would be preserved uninielted No MC can say that such an event is impossible, isl e one can. deny that it is highly improbable, but I am certain that any interference on our part would render it still more o ne likely, if n o t i mposs ibl e. (hear.) I cannot agree with the ogle earl opposite that the occupation of Rome by the Frenoh army is unpopular. I believe that the more we press for its cessation the more it will be believed that we have some selfish object in view, and the more difficult will it become for the Enverg to withdrtiw his trope, We must remember that we have no regular diplomatic rela tions with Rome, and that the Pope would be apt to re ceive any irregular communication with suspicion. He might very fairly say that on the political part of the ques tion we are not impartial, because we are determined at almost any price to secure the unity of Italy; and that on the religious part of the question our interest as Pro testants inclines us to regard with favour whatever will weaken his power. But, my lords, means may and I trust will be discovered for reconciling the spiritual independence of the Holy See with the exercise of the temporal power of the King of Italy in that territory. I believe that those means will be found in the operation of time and in thepro gress of events, in the good government, order, tranquillity, and increasing prosperity of the countries adjacent to the dominions of the Pope, and above all in the growing dis content of the Pope's subjects, in his straitened revenues, and in the impossibility of his continuing to the pres..sure from ne gotiate for the u m e d the be most Hely unwise seein all sides. flle st l an th d in f k re t e h s a t t etxheerPcisoepeomig of his et etphiernitual p if o h w e er d , i a d n n d o t t h m e e K et i a spirit of the kindest and most reverential liberality. any ngo flt such al y e v w e r o t u u l r d e s in fr d o e (Hear, hoar.) Our efforts should be confined, as they have hitherto been, and as I am sure they will con tinue to be, to an endeavour to check th© interven tion of other Powers in the affairs of Italy. We must never disguise our determination that the moral influence of England will be used to prevent the restoration of Governments which must bring vengeance in their train, and which can never claim the confidence and affection of the pecq le; and must continue to do what wo can, as it was expressed in the Speech from the Throne, to secure for the Italians liberty to manage their affairs for themselves. As far as they have yet had an opportunity of doing so they have shown remarkable prudence and moderation. (Hear.) For years past they have been reduced by oppressive Go vernments and foreign bayonets to that state in which men are most unfit for a free constitution; but during the last year and a half they have exhibited a patience, moderation, and good sense which have exceeded the expectations of of their most enthusiastic friends. (Hear, hear.) The last general election has been conducted with so much peace and order, the people have displayed so much sound judg ment in resisting the appeals made to their passions and in selecting the men whom they deemed best fitted to promote the national interests, that, though there are many and most formidable difficulties yet to be overcome, I think we cannot feel otherwise than hopeful that better days are in store for Italy, and that she may yet fulfil her destiny as an united nation. (Hear.) I understand and respect the desire of many Roman Catholics, that the supreme head of their Church should exercise, in all its plenitude, his temporal and spiritual power; but I agree with my noble friend the Under-Secretary that they are not justified in saying, either with regard to her Majesty's Government, or with regard to the noble lord at the head of the Foreign Department, that the temporal or spiritual authority of the Pope has been interfered with. We desire only to behold the subjects of his Holiness prosperous and contented, and we are not debarred from looking at the Pope as one of the Sovereigns of Europe, and from seeing—what it is impossible we can close our eyes to—that he stands in a position different from any other Sovereign, for he has, in fact, no temporal power at all. He has delegated his power to other authorities, one in the capital and another in the provinces, who exer cises it for him. There cannot be the slightest doubt of what my noble friend the Under Secretary has said, that the moment that the pressure of foreign forces is with drawn the nullity of the Pope's power will become manifest. Nothing can be more certain than that the day when the French army quits Rome the Pope's subjects will throw off their allegiance. The reason, it appears to me, why the Pope can never retain his temporal authority is, that his subjects can never rely on the establishment of such a Government as shall justly command their obedience and loyalty. For this Ido not blame the present Pope or any of his predecessors, because, without destroying the basis on which the Papacy has always rested, and without departing altogether from the system which has prevailed for cen turies, I believe it to be impossible for any Pope to grant those reforms which the spirit of the age and the exigencies of the times require. Advice and warnings have for the last 40 years been given to the Pope by the Catholic Powers of Europe, and the answer which has been returned has in substance been invariably the same as that which Cardinal Attonelli lately gave to the Marquis de Gra • mont—Le Pape ne tiansi:gera jamas. The Pope will not grant those political reforms which he believes to be incon sistent with his spiritual rights. The Papacy is the purest absolutism, and in all those questions which vitally affect the social wellbeing of the people the Church claims to be the sole and exclusive judge, and never has consented, and never will, to any compromise. (Hear, hear.) It is the custom in this country to regard the secularisation of the Papal Government as the panacea for all the evils from which the subjects of the Pope are now suffering; but in the immutable and inevitable condition of the Papal Go vernment such a process is impossible. A cardinal must be Secretary of State, for he is the President of the Council of Ministers, the pivot, in fact, on which the whole ma chinery of the Papal Government works. Ecclesiastical Ministers are necessary at home, ecclesiastical agents abroad. Civil causes must be tried before ecclesiastical tribunals. The Pope is himself at the head of the Inqui sition and cannoteielegate his power to a layman. A.o the temporal must in all respects be subservient to the spiri tual authority of a Sovereign, the Pope can grant no sub st intial reforms, and this alone would be an insurmountable obstacle to the re-establishment of his temporal power under a system of constitutional government. I think, therefore, that the Pope must already see or will soon become sensible that his lost provinces can only be recovered for him by a foreign army, and that his present territory can only be retained under his nominal authority by a never-ceasing foreign occupation. That is simply impos sible, tind I trust some means will be found of reconciling what is called " the inexorable logic of events" with the personal independence and spiritual supremacy of the Pope. I think, however, that we Protestants have nothing to do with an arrangement of so delicate a nature, which may safely be left to the operation of time. (Cheers.) The Earl of DERBY—Whatever falls from ley noble friend is well entitled t 3 the attention of your lordships, and I feel that we are indebted to him for the clear and manly statement which he has made. (Hear, hear.) He has stated in the fullest and frankest manner what are his own views on this important question. In some points I entirely concur in the opinion of my noble friend. He has laid down the principle that the rights of Austria over her Venetian territories are as valid as the rights of any Sove reign over any portion of his dominions. (Hear, hear.) I agree with him, and at the same time I concur with my noble friend in thinking that the continued possession of that territory by Austria may be a source of constant diffi culties and differences between Austria and the Italian kingdom, between whom it is most important that, if it be possible, all causes of difference should be withdrawn, and that those States should be united in the bonds of harmony and peace. (Hear.) I further concur with my noble friend, and I am sure your lordships will concur also in thinking, that whatever may be our personal feelings—whatever we may wish, whatever may be the sentiments of the country —the Power which first resorts to the fearful alternative of war will incur an awful responsibility, and lose altogether the sympathies which, but for the means adopted, she would otherwise command. (Cheers.) In the very few observations which I shall make I shall confine myself exclusively to the subject to which my noble friend's question more imme diately referred— the particular difficulty with which not we, but Europe has to deal, viz., the question of the Pope. And I think I may congratulate your lordships and the country that, whatever differences of opinion there may be between us as to the final settlement which is desirable with regard to this Italian question, there is on all sides of the house— I am sure there is. on this side, and I rejoice to hear there is on the part of her Majesty's Government and on the part of those who represent more or less independent opinions, like my noble friend who has just sat down—one concurrent opinion, that with regard to the internal settlement of the Roman territory her Majesty's Government is not only justified but required to maintain the principle of the strictest non-interference. (Cheers.) I entirely concur in what was stated by the noble lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and confirmed by the expression of the opinions of my noble friend who had just sat down, that if anything were wanted to complicate the difficulties of this question it would be the fact of England —a Pro testant country—taking an active part in endeavouring to settle the affairs of the Roman State. (Cheers.) So strongly have I always felt upon this question that at the time when the Government with which I had the honour to be con nected were using all their efforts to prevent the war which unfortunately broke out between France and Austria, we were pressing both parties to endeavour to come to some terms of agreement with the very object which the question has in view—namely, of reconciling the spiritual supre macy and authority of the Pope with the general peace and tranquillity of Italy. The formation of a kingdom of Italy was not then contemplated by any one, but in giving our advice we did not hesitate to say that the Catholic Powers were particularly, and especially the Governments, bound to deal with the Roman question, and that, while we would give every assistance, we felt that to place ourselves in the first line would not only bo objectionable in point of prin ciple, but a serious impediment to the practical success of any undertaking or any effort to bring about a settlement. (Hear.) Therefore, I cordially assent to the principle laid down by the noble lord the Under Secretary of State—that this is a question in which it is not expedient for this coun try to interfere either by diplomacy or by negotiations. (Cheers.) We are less likely to do goad than to do harm by such interference—(hear)—and I rejoice to hear from the noble lord that her Majesty's Government have not engaged in any such negotiations or any such correspondence. (Cheers.) Nevertheless. I must be permitted to say that I look upon this Roman question as one which as long as it remains unsettled must keep unsettled the prospect of retaining peace. (Hear.) It is a question of the greatest difficulty and of the greatest delicacy. It would be a ques tion of no difficulty whatever were we dealing with only a temporal Sovereign. But it is a question full of difficulty and embarrassment when we arc dealing with one :who unites in his own person the capacities of a temporal Sove reign and of the spiritual head of another Church. (Hear.) . zu list also be permitted to say that is not a matter of in difference to ad what Position the country, as regards English interests, in Principl e ope should stand. It h as ever b een th e ontub. policy that the head of the RomaA Church should be independent. It is a matter of the utmost consequence to this country that he, to whose spiritual authority and power large numbers of our fellow-country men, as well as many millions of our fellow Christians in other parts of the world, give a ready and willing obedience —that he who claims at their hands that obedience and those obligations of duty should be himself in a position in dependent to act, free from the dictation and control of any foreign :Power—which, by maintaining that authority in his hands, which it is very difficult to separate within the limits of spiritual and temporal authority, may be exercising an amount of authority extremely dangerous to the wellbeing and safety of this country. (Cheers.) Let no man suppose that it is a matter of indiffer ence to us whether the Pope is an independent prince or not. The extent of his temporal power is a matter wholly and entirely distinct from his independence. Indeed, my noble friend adverted to the possible idea that, while wishing to put an end to the present state of things, some Protestant object might be served by some weakening of the spiritual power of the Pope. I confess that, if I were de sirous of destroying or injuring that spiritual power, I should think I could do nothing so effectual for the object as to promote a continuance of the present state of things. (Hear, hear.) I cannot conceive a position more embarrassing to Europe, more painful to conscientious Roman Catholics, or more painful to the Pope himself, than the self-contradic tory position in which he is at this moment placed. My noble friend who has just sat down, and also the noble lord the Under-Secretary of State, have pointed out that for many years the Pope has not possessed any temporal power, in the way in which we speak of it with regard to other Sove reigns. He is maintained in his temporal authority in oppo sition to the will of the vast majority of the people over whom his rule extends, by the intervention and presence of foreign troops. If this were the case of a temporal Sove reign we should be justly entitled to call on France at once to cease that intervention, which in the case of a temporal Sovereign would be absolutely indispensable, to withdraw her troops and to leave Italy for the Italians and Rome for the Romans. (Hear, hear.) But in the case of the Pope, where the interests of religion are supposed to be at stake, he must at all events be protected and maintained in such sovereignty and in such state as he can enjoy under the support and dominion of foreign Powers. Until some solu • tion can be found for the difficult question raised by my noble friend it is impossible, whatever may be the objec tions felt by Europe, whatever may be the objections felt by France herself, whatever may be the sense of embarrass ment—and I have no doubt the Emperor himself labours under a great sense of embarrassment—it is impossible, I say, to urge France to withdraw that protection which she at present affords, and it would be useless and worse than useless—it would be idle and criminal—to urge the Emperor to adopt measures which at the present we know he cannot adopt. (Hear, hear.) Only look at what took place in the Legislative Council the other day. Five deputies only, I believe, supported the withdrawal of the French troops. The whole body of public opinion in France is that the Pope must be maintained in independence, and so long as he can be maintained by no other Power it is the duty of the eldest son of the Church, as the Emperor is termed, to maintain the Pope in his authority. (Hear, hear.) 1 will not express so strong an opinion as my noble friend behind me, or even as my noble friend opposite, with regard to the absolute necessity of Rome being the capital of the Italian Kingdom. I confess I concur in the opinion, which is stated in papers laid before your lordships as the original view of the Secre tary of State for Foreign Affairs, that, desiring the indepen dence of Italy, he thought it would be infinitely better effected by the formation of two separate kingdoms. I maintain that opinion now, and I believe that although it sounds very well to speak of the unity oI Italy, the diffi culty of accomplishing that object would have been infi nitely less, and the prospect of ultimate success infinitely greater, if the mode adopted had been the formation of a Northern and Southern kingdom—in which case the Roman question would have been easy of solution, because Rome would have laid between the two, and not been, as at present, the centre of the United Kingdom. As there is one Italian kingdom, I heartily hope and earnestly desire that the union may not be a formal but a real and practical union. At the same time, notwithstanding the moderation displayed and the self-sacrifices made, I cannot but see the greatest difficulties in the consolidation of this union. I cannot look to the state of Naples at the present moment with satisfacticn. Ido not believe that if the people of Naples andlSicily had been left to themselves they would have desired to be associated and subjugated. (Hear.) I do not say they would have desired a continuance of their then existing monarchy—but, if the former dynasty had been well advised and had acted in time, that Government might have been established on a satisfactory and sound basis, and I believe the ',monarch might have continued in amity and friendship with the constitutional monarch of the North of Italy, not interfering with the exceptional jurisdiction of the Pope in whatever remained of the Roman territory. That, in my opinion, would have been a more practical solution of the question, and would have avoided many of the difficulties which must be encountered in the present state of affairs.l (Hear.) Nothing can_be more natural, if there is to be an united Italy, than that the Italians should desire to have Rome for their capital. There are a thousand considerations which lead to that. But the very fact of that necessity enhances to an infinite dezreo the difficulty of coming to any solution with regard to the independence of the Pope, because, diminish his territory as you will, if he is to be independent at all, he must exercise absolute authority, and he must have uncoil trolled dominion over that territory ; he must have a provi sion made for him sufficient to maintain not only the dignity and splendour, but the practical utility of his office. (Hear, hear.) He may have the guarantee of the Catholic Powers of Europe—and that is an arrangement which I should pre fer—but he must obviously within his own limits be uncon trolled master of his own movements, he must be able to act without being subject even to the suspicion of being con trolled and overborne by any foreign Power. (Hear.) My noble friend has brought the question of the temporal power of the Pope to a reductio ad absurdum. He stated, and et ,ted truly, that without the aid of a foreign Power no Government can be maintained which is not in accordance with public feeling and public opinion, and that no laws can be maintained which are not in accordance with the spirit of the times and the extension of popular rights, and then he goes on to argue that such extension of popular rights is inconsistent with temporal power t) the Pope. The reductio is very obvious—that the maintenance of the temporal power of the Pope as a sovereign —I mean reigning over anything which may be dignified by the title of a territory—in the present state of Europe, is morally impossible. But suppose it to be morally possible, I can truly say that, if I were a conscienfous Catholic as I am a conscientious Protestant, I should feel the deepest pain and the deepest mortification at the position in which the head of that Church at the present moment finds himself. - If the maintenance of his temporal power is essential to his spiritual authority, and if he finds that the exercise of that temporal authority at every point comes into opposition and collision with the feelings and wishes and desires of his subject, I can con ceive no heavier blow which could be aimed at the spiritual authority than that it should be supported by acts utterly at variance with the feelings of the people. (Hear, hear.) If I were a devoted servant of the See of Rome, I would say, " Bring the See of Rome into harmony with the people of Italy and with the Catholic feelings of the world ; away with the temporal sovereignty and the temporal possessions, the cares of which and the respon sibilities of which necessarily, according to my noble friend, bring the Papacy into daily conflict with the feel ings and wishes of the people; but let him maintain that in dependence which it is absolutely necessary the head of the Church should possess, and let that be secured, in such a manner as may seem best, separate from the temporal power —by which I mean reigning as a sovereign over a certain extent of territory." (Hear, hear.) The two might be easily reconciled, and in that manner alone can I conceive it pos sible to devise an arrangement of this difficult question. How it is to be arrived at Ido not pretend to say. It is a difficulty with which, however much we may desire to see it settled, we in this count r y h ave no means of dealing. For the solution of it we must look to the feelings of the Catholic powers of Europe generally, and to the growing conviction which must force itself upon the mind of the Sovereign Pontiff—if, indeed, he has a right sense of the superior importance of the spiritual authority over the main tenance of the temporal rower. We can trust to nothing except the conviction on the part of the Catholic Powers and _ ... the Papal See that such a solution is the only one by which the spiritual authority can be reconciled with its temporal independence. But I concur that the less this Protestant country interferes, tho more it leaves it to the Catholic Powers of Europe, and the more it abstains from interfer- mace and intervention, while at the same time it does not close its eyes to the importance of maintaining the real in dependence of the Sovereign Pontiff, the better is the pros pect of arriving at the solution which we all desire, however difficult it may be of attainment. (Hear, hear.) The subject then dropped, and their lordships adjourned. TAE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 20, 1861. ROUSE OF COMMONS.-YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. Mr. H. LEWIS took the oaths and his seat on his elec tion for the borough of Marylebone. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Neath "Water Bill was considered and ordered for third reading; and the Edgware, Highgate, and London Railway was read a second time. ABERDEEN BOROUGH. Mr. H. VIVIAN moved an address for a copy of two reports made by Captain Donolly to the Lords of her Ma jesty's Couacil, on the subject of the petition of the inhabi tant household ers of the borough of Aberdeen, praying fur a municipal charter.—Ordered. NEW WRIT. On a motion of Mr. BRAND a writ was ordered to issue for the election of member fer the borough of Southwark in the room of Mr. John Locke, who had accepted the situ • tion of ReCorder of Brighton. STREET RAILWAYS. Mr. BRADY g ave notice of a motion for the appoint ment of a select c ommittee on this subject. - RELIGIOUS PERSECUTIONS IN SPAIN. Sir R. PEEL asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether hue had any objection to state to the house the nature of the coraimunications which had passed be tween Sir A. Bur,hrinan and the Spanish Government, with reference to the recent persecutions in Spain ? lord J , VSSELL said then had be QA a cmullunica" tion with the Spanish Government on this subject, and made some :other statements, which were not audible in the gallery, from the low One in which the noble lord spoke. THE MANAGER, OF THE MARYI3ORO' DIS TRTCT LUNATIC ASYLUM. Mr. DUNNE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland when the decision of the Lord Lieutenant with regard to the manager of the Maryboro' District Lunatic Asylum would be carried into effect; and whether the manager, when removed, would be appointed to any other asylum? Mr. CARDWELL said that an inquiry had been made into this subject, and the result was that it was determined to remove; the official in question, which would be done shortly. CONVICT REFORM IN IRELAND. On the motion for the adjournment of the house at its rising until Monday, Mr. W. EWART inquired of the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the system introduced by Captain Crofton into Ireland for the discipline and reform of convicts would be taken intc the consideration of the Government. Mr. CLIVE said that any advantage resulting from the reform in question by Capt. Croftm would be considered by the Government. INDIA. Mr. LAYARD asked the Secretary of State for India whether a bill had been introduced into the Legislative Council of India to enforce contracts for the delivery of agricultural produce ? He expressed pleasure at seeing the right hon. gentleman (Sir C. Weed) in his place. He be lieved the question to which he drew the attention of the house was one of extreme importance, and if he was correctly informed, our countrymen in India were guilty of the most reprehensible conduct. Last year there was an outbreak in Bengal in consequence of the proceedings relative to the question of indigo cultiva tion in that presidency. A bill was then introduced into- the Indian legislature, which rendered the breach of contract in the cultivation of indigo punishable by fine or three months' imprisonment. The cultivation of indigo was promoted by the system of advances, and the effect of this system enabled the planters to act in the most oppressive manner towards the ryots, who were the owners of the soil. An inquiry had been made into the subject, and 4,000 answers vere obtained from different witnesses who were qualified to give correct information, who had made a report, from the perusal of which he had risen with mingled feelings of horror, indignation, and dismay which he could not ex press. (Hear, hear.) The law in question was en trusted to young magistrates in many cases, and it armed the planters with a power which they exercised most ex tensively, and the consequence was that numbers of the unfortunate tyots were imprisoned or fined for a failure in the fulfilment of their =tracts. The hon. member then read extracts from the statements of Mr. John Peter Grant, Lieutenant• General of India, and other resident authorities in India to show that the result of the system was t.) inflict the grossest injustice, and he contmded that unless some alteration took place there were grounds for apprehending an outbreak in Southern Bengal. In re gard to this act there was great want of faith towards the natives„ for when it was first passed it was with the distinct understanding that it was to continue only for six months. However, it was reintroduced last March, and he strongly condemned this policy, which had only fot its object the benefit of a -few planters in Southern Bengal, and was calculated to render this country hateful to the in habitants. Mr. VANSITTART asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention had been drawn to the report of the Indigo Commission, with the minutes of evidence taken before them, and appendix, dated Calcutta, April 27th, 1860; and, if so, whether he has taken any steps to carry out the recommendations contained therein. Ho said he had gone carefully through this report, and contended that the planters were exonerated from the charges brought against them. In his opinion the conduct of Mr. Grant was most objectionable, for he threw the whole weight of his authority into the scale against the planters. He said that in many cases the ryots were a money getting body, and were in many cases ab sentees, and they induced their .fellow-ryots to act in such a manner that the planters were unable t 3 meet their liabilities, and their pro perties were sold. He could not see the policy of acting in a hostile manner towards the planters in India, to whom the zemindars and ryots were indebted for much improve ment, and this country in a considerable degree for the maintenance of its power in that country. He referred to the testimony of several competent authorities in India to show that the planters were the friends of improvement and progress, and that instead of being open to censure theAwere entitled to the greatest praise. Mr. KINNAIRD asked the Secretary of State for India whether he had received a copy of the correspon dence regarding the cultivation of indigo, between the Government of India and the Government of Bengal, which tcok place between July and November, 1860 ; also of the correspondence connected with the issue of the Indigo Proclamation, dated September, 1860; and, whether he had any objection to lay the same on the table of the house. He defended the statements of the hon. member (Mr. Layard), and he expressed a hope that the house and the Government would not blind themselves t 3 the emergency that had arisen in India in reference to the question. The facts stated by his hon. friend (Mr. Layard) could be proved, and it could be shown that the cultivation of indigo was impolitic and oppressive. He trusted the papers for which he asked would be produced, and that justice would be done to the unfortunate ryots. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE referred to the debates on the subject in the Indian Legislatiye Council, to show that the statements of the hon. member for Southwark (Mr. Layard) were not justified by facts. He also passed a eulogium on the planters, who, he argued, were not inferior to any other body of her Majesty's subjects, Mr. H. SEYMOUR said that the greatest injury would be inflicted on India and this country by the expulsion of the planters ; and for that reason he felt bound to differ with his hon. friend (Mr. Layard). Sir C. WOOD said that the majority of the papers ap plied for were already on the table of the house. He agreed in what had been said in praise of the planters, but at the same time he agreed that there was truth in the statement of the hon. member for Southwark. He did not approve of the renewal of the act in question, and he did not think there should be special legislation in regard to indigo,cultivation of which was impolitic. condemnedlle the principle of c on t rac t s i n regar d to the cultivation of indigo, and b e li eve d that in enforcing the force that system great injustice was i n fli cted ; bed-ridden, blind, and deaf ryots having been imprisoned for breach of contract, which, from their condition, .they could not fulfil. H e believed a very serious crisis had arisen in Lower Bengal, and he regretted extremely the introduction of the bill alluded to into the Legislative Council of India, as he considered it a great mistake, no case having been made out to justify the Legislature in in terfering in regard to the cultivation of indigo in India. ATTENDANCE OF VOLUNTEERS AT ELECTIONS. Gen. PEEL said—The question I am about to put to the noble lord the member for Tiverton arises out of a report which I have seen in the newspapers respecting the election for the borough of Tiverton. The report stated that the elec tion was fixed for 2 o'clock at the Town-hall, but that long before that hour the streets were crowded, and they were enlivened by the Tiverton Rifle Corps, and Lord Palmerston was escorted by them from his hotel, the Three Tuns, to the hustings at the Town-hall. My object in asking this question is to prevent a precedent being established upon what, in my opinion, was a very novel and most improper proceed ing ; and I hope to hear from the noble lord an assurance that orders will be issued from the War-office to prevent, in future, the appearance of volunteers at elections. (Hear.) I, myself, should be prepared to go much further, and to say that with the exception of drill and exercise, and every- thing connected with them, I should like to see the volun. teers prevented from appearing in arms without the consen of the lords-lieutenant of their different counties. (Hear. I think it ought to be left to the volunteers themselves to decide to whom military honours were to be paid, but I think the house will agree with me that their appearance at elections is undesirable and improper. (Hear.) We know the objections which exist to the appearance of regular troops at elections; those objections are much stronger with regard to volunteers, who might be actuated by local and party feelings, and who moreover were not subject to the discipline of regular troops, which can alone render it safe allow the presence of armed men in crowded assemblies. ;Hear.) I may be told that this was not a contested elec- ion, and that the only object of the volunt3ers was to pay a mark of respect to a very distinguished individual, and whose whose connection with Tiverton was a great honour to it ; • and if this had not been an election,'Eo far from complaining I should be one of the very first to approve of what they had done; and I can assure the noble lord that it is out of no disrespect to him I make these remarks. (Hear.) But to say that an election is not to be a contested election before ;he question has - been put by the returning officer was hardly possible. How do we know that Mr. Roweliffe may not have been intimidated ? (Hear.) I own that a man of his nerve is not very likely to be intimidated, but still a man of less strong nerves might have been intimidated, and felt unable tl act up to what he considered to be his duty at that opportunity. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had put it to tae volunteers whether the army was to be reduced, and was met with loud cries of " No, no." (Laughter.) Ido not say that much harm was occa- sioned by the presence of the volunteers on that occasion, but I wish t) prevent a recurrence of such an event. I :rust Cie house will agrce with me that tais is a question which ought not to be passed over in silence—(hear) —and I hope some steps will be taken to prevent its recurrence. (1-Icar.) If the volunteers have the right to support one man they have the right to support another ; and what would be the case supposing a popular colonel of a volunteer force were t) become a candidate in a locality with which he and his corps were connected ? (Laughter.) I mean no disrespect by these remarks to the noble lord—(hear) —l mean no disrespect to the volunteers. (Hear, hear.) No man can feel more interest than I do in the volunteer move- ment, because I am responsible for having reeommended the acceptance of their services, which had been refused by the prr69114 Cl9Yermilt, but I certaiplY wi44 t 9 geetliCia relieved from occupying that position which they occupied at the late election for the borough of Tiverton. The ques tion I wish to put is to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if it be true that at the recent election for Tiverton he was escorted to the hustings by the Tiverton Volunteer Rifles, and if it is the intention of the Government to sanction the attendance of volunteers with their arms at elections ? Lord PALMERSTON, who on rising was received with cheers, said—l am sure, sir, I have no ground of complaint nor have the Tiverton volunteers any reason to complain of the manner in which the right hon. and gallant gentleman has asked this question. (Hear.) I quite admit that as a general principle it is quite improper that armed bodies should participate in elections. I do certainly remember that on the occasion of an election for Sligo some few years ago the police were put in confinement, the militia were or. deredout of the town, and the regular tro3ps were brought in merely to insure the freedom of election. (Laughter.) That was an exceptional case. The statement which the hon. and gallant officer has made is quite true. The fact is, that when I was going from the hotel to the court-house I found that the Tiverton Volunteers, who are a fine body of men—and it would do the hon. and gallant gentleman's soldier-heart good to see them, both on account of the fineness of the men, their precision of step and accu rate movements, wished to accompany me to the court house with their band ; and I really thought that as there was no contest and no probability of one, it would be a piece of political prudery on my part to refuse, and I therefore accepted the honour which they proposed to do me. (Hear, and laughter.) Now as to intimidation, the right hon. and gallant gentleman says that even Mr. Rowcliffe might be a candidate, although as far as he knows he was not likely t 3 be intimidated. But I say, notwithstanding our occasional sparring matches, he is a free-torn Briton— " Si fractus illabatur orbis Impavidurn ferient ruina , ," —(cheers)—and that he was the last man t be intimidated by the Tiverton Volunteers. Well, that was the case. I should state, however, that although the volunteers marched with me to the court-house, they went and deposited their arms in the usual place, and appeared at the election, though in uniform, as part of the unarmed population of the town. After the election they marched with me back to the hotel, and in the evening when I left the town they insisted on accompanying me on the first stage—(a laugh)—and while I was waiting for the train at the Tiverton Junction station, they performed admirably several military movements, and gave me two volleys. (Laughter.) With reference to the last question of the right hon, and gallant gentleman, I believe it is the intention of Lord Herbert to send a circular letter to the lords-lieutenant of counties, stating that it is not advisable that the volunteers should take part in any way in elections. (Cheers.) SALES OF LAND IN NEW ZEALAND. Mr. HOPE wished to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it was intended to endeavour to institute a tribunal in New Zealand to decide upon conflict ing claims of natives in cases of proposed sales of land by them to the Government. Mr. C. FORTESCUE said there was no native tribunal in New Zealand, and no English court which took cogni sance of those transactions. It was true there were Eng lish courts of law in New Zealand, but they found them selves incompetent to take notice of those sales of land. The practice therefore had been that the Government acted by direct negotiations with the native owners, proceeding in each case by the prevailing custom of each particular dis • trict. It was a course which had been attended with very great success, and by it a very considerable amount of native land had been secured for the purposes of the colo • fists, without leading to any serious difficulty, until those unfortunate circumstances occurred which had lately been taking place. It was a course which had been justified both by the letter and the spirit of the treaty of Waitangi, and also by the necessity of the case. The fact was, there did not exist any such native titles as admitted of being treated by any uniform or well-defined code of law. The condition of the native people had presented an insurmountable ob stacle to the establishment or the working of any court of justice to decide upon their land claims. The natives of New Zealand were to a great extent merely nominal sub jects of the Crown, and in many districts they had remained practically independent. So much so that the small por tion of them who were unfortunately engaged in hostilities against her Majesty's troops could not fairly be said to be in the position of rebels. (Hear, hear.) He would admit that for some years past it had been strongly felt both by the Government of New Zealand and by the Government at home that the existing system was unsatisfactory ; but the difficulties which had arisen were not t:11 lately difficul ties between the Government as purchasers and the natives as sellers. It had been felt, however, that the communis tic tenure of the land—for it was always held by commu nities—was extremely detrimental to the improvement of the It led to indolence and demoralisation of every kind ; and it was, therefore, most desirable to in troduce a better system. In 1858 a bill was sent home by the Colonial Government, called " The Native Territorial Rights Act ;" but after mature deliberation the Govern ment of the day—in which the right honourable baronet the member for Hertfordshire (Sir E. B. Lytton) was Secre tary of State for the Colonies—decided that they could not give it their assent. Last year a bill, with similar objects, was brought in by the treble duke (the Duke of Newcastle) ; but the House of Co.mmons was not disposed to entertain that measure. Within the last month a third bill had been received by her Majesty's Government from the legislature of New Zealand for the purpose of creating native titles, similar to those that would have been created under the bill of last session. The object of that measure was to enable the Governor by and with the advice and consent of gentle men of the highest authority in New Zealand to examine claims, to grant certificates of titles, and to induce the na tives if possible to submit their disputos to the arbitration of some regular tribunal. At the same time he must can didly say he did not believe that any such tribunal would have sufficed to prevent the recent unfortunate occurrences. The entire conviction of the Governor throughout the whole transaction had been that William King never made any claim of any sort to the land that would have been ad mitted by any authority, whether by commissioners, or by a land com t, or by any other legal authority. Their convic- tion was that this chief, King, had not intended to make any such elaipi. If he had, it would have been investigated as all such claims had invariably been. It was clear to the government that the position which King had assumed was that of a native potentate who disputed the sovereign claims of the British crown. The authority of the Government over the colony was very limited. The power of internal regulation and of taxation had been given up to the local legislature; and there remained little to the crown beyond the difficult and invidious task of extinguishing native rights, and handing over the land so obtained as waste land, to be disposed of by the local government. No doubt it would be a great gain if means could be devised of pre- venting for the future the bloody disputes which occurred from time to time between the native owners and those unfortunate differences which they had lately had with the Government. If, however, this war should teach them that their wisdom lay in submitting themserves absolutely to the Queen's authority, he had no doubt that it would in the end prove to be of the greatest benefit to the natives them selves. (Hear, hear.) Lord it. CECIL thought the Under Secretary of State (Mr. Fortescue) had misunderstood the drift of his hon, friend's question, namely, the institution of a com• petent tribunal in New Zealand to decide upon the con flicting claims of natives where land \vas proposed to be sold to the Government. He (Lord It. Cecil) contended that the course pursued by the Government in recent cases was of such a character as t) prevent the natives having confidence in the Government. What was wanted was te establishment of a Court of Arbitration, in which the natives could repose confidence. (Hear, hear.) THE SPANISH PROTESTANTS. Sir R. PEEL was anxious not to let the evening pass without making some remarks upon the statement which the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) had made with reference to the communications that he had received from the Spanish government. He did not know whether he had accurately gathered what the noble lord said, but if ho had, he felt sure that the noble lord had rather spoken what had been put into his mouth rby int3restod persons than given ex• pression to his own sentiments. Lord J. RUSSELL—I gave no opinion at all; I merely stated facts. Sir R. PEEL—That made it a great deal worse. (A laugh.) There were men in Spain who were persecuted solely on the ground of their religious faith. He (Sir R. Peel) had himself presented petitions, very numerously signed, from different parts of the country, urging upon her Majesty's government to take some steps by the exercise of their influence to procure the release of those men who were thus suffering persecution. (Hear.) The noble lord stated on a former occasion that he declined to tike that course on account of the sensitiveness of the Spanish Go vernment. The noble lord said that the Spanish Govern ment were most anxious—he (Sir R. Peel) believed the noble lord said that Marshal O'Donnell and also the Mini- ster of Justice were most anxious—to give every liberty to the ekercise cf political rights in that country; but the fact was that these persons who call themselves Spanish Pro testants were men who held socialist principles, and were about to attempt to establish a republic in Spain. But the indictment against these men stated that they were being punished solely on account of their religious conviction?. It was no doubt extremely easy for the noble lord to have this clever answer put into his mouth. But why did not the Spanish Government try these poor people ? (Hear.) They were now treated worse than if they had been mur- defers and thieves. They were called heretics solely on account of their religious opinions, and on this ground were excluded from all intercourse with their families. He (Sir R. Peel) had letters from many of these people, which if read would draw tears from the eyes of hon. memberi, stating that they were positively dying, and praying that the Government would bring them to trial. And these persecutions were extending. (Hear.) At Seville some 20 or 30 men were taken up who had merely assembled to gether for the discussion of newspapers and pamphlets of that kind. The rest were discharged, but two of them were thrown into prison. These acts were an insult to the 19th century. It was high time that the noble lords the mem• hers for Tiverton and for London should, from their ante cedents on this quesron, show some spirit, and tell the Spanish Government how they looked upou this subject. They should , have the moral courage to tell the Spanish Q9yerwent th,E t t this conduct was quit(' incompatible with the liberal feelings of modern Europe. Until the other day the Austrian Government was the most arbitrary Go vernment in Europe on religious questions. The concor dat made with Rome was supposed to be one of the most extreme documents ever published in Europe ; but on the Bth of April last the most complete liberty had been given to the Protestant religion throughout the Austrian dominions. Now here were the Spaniards con tinuing in this dreadful course of persecution, and the noble lord got up in the House of Commons and pretended to say that these men were suffering not from any question of faith, but solely because they were connected with secret societies whose principles were subversive of the authority of the Government in Spain. Jord J. RUSSELL (interposing) said he had never stated that these men were suffering in consequence of their belonging to secret societies ; nor did he say that the alle gation of belonging to secret societies was justly applicable to these persons. What he had said was that the Spanish Government declared they would have been glad to release these men, who were imprisoned, as his hon. friend justly remarked, in consequence of their not agreeing in the doe trines of the Roman Catholic faith, but that they could not do so, because, since they were in prison, certain secret societies had been discovered, who were endeavouring to bring about the establishment of a republic in Spain. There was no allegation that the persons imprisoned had them • selves been members of secret societies. Sir R. PEEL continued. Then why were these men not brought to trial ? (Hear, hear.) The noble lord knew that this was an allegation which was always brought against men who did not conform to the established religion. He could assure the noble lord, on the faith of these men, that they were in no way connected with any political movement in their country. He charged the Spanish Government with the most direct perversion of the truth in saying that these men were in any way connected with secret societies in Spain. These poor men were suffering the most bitter punishment ever inflicted on criminals of the worst descrip tion, and he hoped her Majesty's Government would act in the matter as they did in 1853 and 1852, and endeavour to represent to the Spanish Government that these persecu tions solely on account of religious principles, were wholly incompatible with the feelings not only of this country, but of the whole of Europe. BRITISH CONSULS AT SHANGHAI AND JAPAN. Col. SYKES rose to call attention to a consular notifi cation, dated Shanghai, Feb. 8, 1861, and to ask the Score tery of State for Foreign Affairs what circumstances had occasioned this notification ; and to ask on whit grounds the consul-general in Japan had abandoned his position at the capital ? Lord J. RUSSELL said that, before he adverted to the questions put to him by his hon. friends who had last spoken, he would advert to the answer which he had given to a question put to him last evening (Thursday), respect ing the sums payable for the Chinese indemnity. He wished to state, with regard to the sum which had been actually received, and the sum which we were entitled to receive— first, that he had ascertained the sum which had been ac tually received to be not £650,000, as he had stated, but £212,000; and secondly, that the sum which we were en titled to receive was 2,000,000 taels, or £650,000. With re gard to the question of his hon. and gallant friend near him (Colonel Sykes), it was quite sufficient to state that Mr. Meadows, the consul at Shanghai, last year asked for further assistance, and that the Government gave it. In February last his health failed him, and he then said he was not equal to the performance of the duties of the office, and that he should confine himself to the mere routine duties for the present, leaving to the second consul the more active duties. He regretted that Mr. Meadows was not in good health, because he was a most deserving officer, and he, in common with his hon and gallant friend appre ciated his services. With regard to the statements which his hon. and gallant friend had made, he would merely ob serve that they had belonged to the arrangements made some time ago by which the Custom house duties were col lected by Europeans. It was supposed that such a system would prevent a great many abuses which prevailed amongst those in the service of the Chinese Government at the vari ous ports. Whether the arrangements had been completely fulfilled he could not state at present ; but he should not propose to put an end to them As to the anarchy which was said t 3 prevail in some places in China, it did not sur prise him, because for many years past the Chinese empire had been in a very weak state, and those in the administra • tion of affairs had shown how feebly they managed them. The British Government had not attempted to prevent it, but they had endeavoured to prevent wrongs being com mitted against British subjects in the Chinese empire. He could not discover what course his lion. and gallant friend wished the Government to pursue. What they had done was to acknowledge the existing Government of China, and between that Government and the Taepings her Ma jesty's Government had remained neutral, but they had de fended Shanghai against an attack of the Taepings simply because it contained the property of British subjects. They had not defended, nor had any intention of defending, the Chinese authority against the Taepings. (Hear.) His hon. and gallant friend had also asked on what grounds the con sul-general in Japan had abandoned his position at the capital. The reason for his doing so was contained in the despatch which the consul had written and sent to the British Minister of Japan, and which he (Lord J. Russell) would have no objection to lay upon the table of the house. The circumstances were shortly these :—For a considerable time there had prevailed at Jeddo a system of intimidation towards the foreign Ministers, and though not counte nanced by the Japan Government, yet they allowed it to proceed, and in the end a servant of the French Minister was murdered, and no redress could be obtained. Some time afterwards the secretary of the American consul was mur•• dered, and when that took place, the foreign Ministers met, and asked the Japan Government for redress, but none was afforded to them. Nothing, in fact, was done, but when the foreign Ministers proposed to attend the funeral procession of the murdered secretary to the grave, the Japan Govern ment said it would very likely lead to a general massacre of the foreign Ministers, and that they could not protect them. Although that threat was held out, the foreign Ministers did attend the funeral, and they subsequently held a meet hag for the purpose of considering the course which they ought to pursue, and they asked that full protection should be given to them and all persons trading at Jeddo. The resolution was acted upon by the British, French, and Russian ministers, and the Turkish consul, and they left Jeddo, but the American consul did not agive in the resolu tion, and he remained at Jeddo. The Foreign Ministers had not broken off relations with the Government of Japan There had been no rupture of friendly relations, the Minis ters had simply removed themselves to a place where the men-of-war would protect them from danger, and there they would remain until relations should have been placed on a more satisfactory footing. He had no objection to pro duce the papers, but he should prefer to wait for a time longer for further accounts before doing so. (Hear.) He observed that there was a question at the end of the paper as to " whether he had received any information respecting the case of a British subject, the owner of the cargo of the Mio Teo, and the alleged injustice and injury to which ho had been subjected, with the sanction of the Spanish authorities of Poit Mahon, in the Island of Minorca." Now that was a question entirely for the Spanish tribunals, and the law officers of the Crown could not properly interfere in the pre sent stage of the business. He (Lord J. Russell) must take notice of what had been said by the hon. baronet the mem.. ber for Tamworth with regard to the religious persecutions of certain persons in Spain. He had merely stated 'what were the allegations of the Spanish minister, and he begged leave to remark that he did not attempt to justify all those allegations. (Hear, hear.) The Spanish ,Minister never said that those persons were not in prison, or that they were connected with certain republican societies. Far from But what he said was that they were persons who had been condemned to a period of imprisonment for allowing a form of religious worship, not authorised, in their houses. They were not charged with being members of a secret society. It was said by the Spanish minister that he should be glad to give British subjects every kind of indulgence compatible with tae law, and that he should also be glad to appeal to the Crown for a pardon for those persons who were suffer ing from expressing their religious opinions; but at that moment there were a number of religious societies scattered over Spain which were connected with republican socie ties, and therefore the law must take its course. That statement might be good or bad; he (Lord J. Rus• sell) was merely responsible for stating that such were the allegations of the Spanish Government: With regard to the subject no one could for a momont doubt that, holding the opinions he did, he must be in favour of religious liberty, and opposed to religious intolerance. But at the same time he could not instruct the agents of this country to inculcate his views in every part of the world. (Hear, hear.) He would refer to an incident which happened last year, and from which he trusted the cause of rel gious liberty was in some degree promoted. There were two Governments in Mexico•—the Church Government and the constitutional Government, and the Governments of France, Spain, and Britain wished to mediate between them. The Government of France did riot agree with him because he would not recommend anything unless the principle of religious liberty was acceded to. The consti tutional Government had established itself, and the prin ciple of religious liberty had been proclaimed. He should have opposed everything tending to intolerance, and pro meted the view of religious liberty for every man in Mexico But with regard to the Spanish Government, they knew well all the hon. baronet had recommended—viz., that he should let them know the principles which the Government _ _ of her Majesty professed, and that those which the Govern ment of Spain sanctioned were wholly opposed to the feel. ings of right thinking people in these enlightened times. (Hear.) He stated this to a deputation which waited upon him, and the Spanish Government knew what he then stated, but if he were to make au offici ii representation, on the subject the Spanish Government might say, " Our prin ciples may be right or wrong, but that is nothing to you, we have a right t 9 mainhin our own laws and our own con stitution." There was an article contained in the Spanish constitution which was quite repugnant to his feelings and opinions, but, at the samo time he must use a certain de gree of discretion in treating with an independen. Govern ment. He begged the house to believe that if he did not interfere actively en this subject it was not because he was not in favour of religious liberty being fully practised throughout the world. (Hear, bear.) In answer to the question of the hon. member for Glasgow (Mr. Buchanan) Ile yfiglad t 9 OfilrY9 that he had not keen al* t 9 00 411 Y such correspondence as that to which he had called hilit attention. If discovered he would lay it on the table. Mr. BLAKE said the case to which he wished to call the noble lord's attention was this : a Mr. Robinson freighted a ship with a cargo from Constantinople to London, and the vessel proceeded on her voyage and put into Malta fo repairs. The captain subsequently went to Port Mahon, in the island of Minorca, and induced the Spanish authori ties to determine that the cargo was in such a state that he could not proceed on his voyage. The owner then sent an employe to inquire into the matter, and he found the cargo in a sound condition. No doubt the object of the delay in not deciding the questions was to compel Mr. Robinson to make terms with the captain, and under those circum•, stances the Spanish authorities would reap very considere\Z` ble benefit. The cargo had been detained five months, alid no decision had yet been arrived at upon the subject. Re' presentations were in February last made by Mr. Robinson to the Foreign-office, and the noble lord gave an opinion that he could not, under the circumstances interfere, but he (Mr. Blake) thought the time had now arrived whe n something might be done to induce the Spanish Govern ment to do justice between the parties, and especially, to Mr. Robinson. Lord J. RUSSELL said that if a further application wer e made to the Foreign -office he would lay the case before the legal advisers of the Government for their opinion. (Hear.) THE DOCKYARD LABOURERS. Mr. ANGERSTEIN called the attention of the Secret'STY of the Admiralty to the wages of the dockyard labourers. Lord C. PAGET said the pay of the established labourers had not been reduced ; they still got Hs. a week, and the superannuation system was a great boon to them. It well only the junior class who were reduced to 135., and they were eligible, by good conduct and steadiness, to be put on the established list. EVICTIONS IN IRELAND. Mr. V. SCULLY asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he had yet received official information respecting the recent eviction of 280 inhabitants from the lands of Derryveagh, in the county of Donegal ; and whether it was intended that the landlord who caused those evictions should hold the commission of the peace ? Mr. CARD WELL said he had received information of what had occurred on the occasion to which his hon. friend referred. The stipendiary magistrate, with a large force of constabulary, was present in the district when 47 ejec t " ments, involving in the whole 244 persons, were carried into execution ; and what he learned was that the people stood by calmly and saw most of their houses unroofed, and that while some of them expressed their intention to emigrate, others said they would seek relief in the work house. The hon. gentleman asked whether the relieving officer received a note under the statute to be present, and whether he discharged his duty. He had directed an inquiry into that part of the case, and so far as his informa tion went the relieving officer did receive the statutory note, but he had n,t yet received information as to what passed with regard to the relief of the people under the poor law. He had no information which induced him to sup pose he was not in attendance according to the note he received, or that there was any failure with regard to his carrying out the provisions of the law. With regard to these wholesale evictions, they were now becoming ex tremely rare in Ireland, but it was not possible to hear of a case of the kind without feelings of the deepest commisera tion for those who were the subjects of it. There must be many persons involved in the suffering who could not have been parties to any guilty transaction. His hon. friend would find, when the papers moved for yesterday were laid on the table, that when Government heard it was the in tention of the landlord to proceed to so extensive an exercise of his rights, they felt it their duty to call his attention to the serious responsibility which persons incurred by sa doing. With regard to the removal of this gentleman from the commission of the peace, having heard the day before yesterday that his hon. friend intended to put the question, he at once communicated with his learned friend the Lord Chancellor, with whom the duty rested of advising the Crown in such cases, and he returned him an answer, in which he thought the house would con - cur, that the gentleman had not been shown to him to have acted in excess of the rights with which he was invested by the law. or to have been guilty of any breach of his duty in his capacity of magistrate; and that in the absence of proof of his having acted otherwise his learned friend thought it would be an undue exercise of power to expunge his name from the commission of the peace. The motion for adjournment until Monday was then agreed to. DUTY ON FOREIGN PAPER. Mr. TURNER asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it was the fact that in charging the customs duty on foreign paper a tare of 31bs. was deducted on the weight of each ream on account of wrappers, the duty being charged only on the naked paper, whereas in charging the excise duty to the British manufacturer the whole ream, including the wrapper, was weighed for duty; and if such was the fact, what reasons could be given why this protec• tion was given to the foreign manufacturer. Mr. M. GIBSON said that he had made inquiries, and he found it was not correct that a tare of 3lbs. was deducted from the weight of each ream, on account of the wrapper. The practice was for the customs to charge in the first in stance the whole duty, and afterwards to deduct 2 per cent. on the whole weight, and return that to the pat ties charged with the duty, and the excise did pretty much the same thing. So that it was not true that any protection was given to the foreign manufacturer. MEXICAN BONDHOLDERS, &c. Mr. BUTT moved for an address for copy of any conven tion or conventions providing for the appropriation of the customs duties of any of the Mexican ports to the payment of the claims of the bondholders of the State entered into between Governor Juarez, or any other person repre seating the constitutional Government at Vera Cruz, an Captain. Dunlap or Captain Aldham, of her Majesty's navy and, copy of, or extracts from, any correspondence or de spatches relating to the affairs of Mexico since the assump • lion of the presidential power by Miramon. Lord J. RUSSELL said he had nothing new to commu nicate on the subject, but there was no doubt whatever that a gross felony was committed. There was a large sum of money at the British Legation, and a base and undisguised rob Wry, for which the British Government must demand reparation as soon as possible. There was some difficulty as to what they should do, but it was under consideration. There have been so many outrages committed at Mexico that Mr. Matthews, the British Minister, was directed by him (Lord J. Russell) to leave Mexico before the robbery occurred. It was, therefore, not his fault that he was not present when the money was taken away. Of course it was no wonder the British bondholders felt just indignation, but Sir Charles White was now on his way to Mexico with special instructions from the Government. As to the papers moved for, he should lay them on the table of the house on Monday next. CHELSEA NEW BRIDGE. Sir J. SHELLEY moved for a return of amount of tolls collected en Chelsea New Bridge from the 31st day of March, 1860, to the 30th day of September, 1860, and from the 30th day of September, 1860, to the 31st day of March, 1861, stating the expenses incurred in the collection of tolls, repairs, and maintenance ; also the quantity of land around Battersea Park disposed of for building or other purposes since the 31st day of March, 1860. On the motion of Mr. HUBBARD, Mr. Baxter was dis charged from attendance on the Select Committee on In come and Property-tax, and Mr. Buchanan added thereto. Mr. KINNAIRD obtained leave to bring in a bill to pro vide additional means for the establishment of reformatory schools in Scotland. Mr. VANCE moved for a return of all articles entered for exportation to France from the various ports of the United Kingdom, together with the value of the same Fl om the Ist day of April, 1880, to the 31st day of March, 1831, both inclusive; and similar return for the same period in the previous year. PUBLIC OFFICES EXTENSION BILL. Mr. COWPER nominated the following members as a committee on the above subject :—Mr. Cowper, Sir William Dunbar, Lord John Manners, Sir Stafford Northcote, Sir John Shelley, Viscount Enfield ; and five members to be nominated by the committee of selection; five to be the quorum. Mr. SCULLY complained that there was no Irish mem ber on the committee. If the Government ignored the Irish members, why not let them have their own Irish Par- Jiament, where they could manage their own affai:;;;;;;t themselves. Colonel DUNNE wished to know if the Government meant to repeal the union altogether by excluding Irish members from important committee's of that house. Mr. COWPER said he never contemplated that Irish members wished to act on this committee, the object of which was to make arrangements to purchase five houses. (A laugh.) After a few words from Colonel FRENCH, the committee were appointed. VOLUNTEERS' TOLLS EXEMPTION (No. 2) BILL. On the motion of Mr. BRISTOW, leave was given to bring in a bill to exempt the volunteer forces of Great Britain from payment of tolls. SUPPLY. Mr. MASSEY brought up the report on supply, which was agreed to. QUEEN'S PRISON BILL. The Queen's Prison Bill, the Burford Charity Bill, and the Reading Charities Bill, were severally read a third time and passed., The Temple Balsall Hospital Bill wag also read a third time and passed. The other business on the paper hay ing been disposed oft the house adjourned at ten minutes to twelve o'clock. {ADVERTISEMEKT.I—HoIIoway's Ointment and Pills.-- Tumours, Scroful us Swellings, and Glandular Abscess'.—' At this season of the year, while the temperature is s° variable, such diseases are constantly presenting them selves in sanguine and feeble frames. All have placed within their reach the antidote to those dreadful scourges, which, at their commencement, may be readily arrestedand cured, but, when neglected, resist for a long time the most appropriate remedies. Holloway's Ointment, rubbed on or near the affected part, will thoroughly eradicate the cause of these maladies, and expel their seed f r omEtbe system. 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