The Sun. — London, England, 1834-03-01 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Fss. 28. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack shortly after five o'clock. The Bishop of LICHFIELD and COVENTRY pre sented several 2igtions from different parishes in the counties of Lei -;elMand Derby, praying fer the protection of the estabishedalbrch. The Earl of SEFTON presented petitions from the Dissenters of Wigan and Bridgnorth, complaining of the disabilities under which they laboured, and praying for relief. Lord PAGET presented a similar petition from Car. narvon. The Bishop of BATH and WELLS presented two petitions from parishes in the county of Somerset, one for the better observance of the Sabbath, and the other in favour of the continuation of the connection of church and state. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented petitions from the Dissenters of Swansea, and several parishes in the county of Wilts, praying for relief. Viscount MELBOURNE presented several petitions from Stonehouse, and several other parishes in the county of Devon, praying for the protection of the church esta blishment. Lord HOLLAND presented several petitions from the Dissenters of different parishes in the county of Somerset, praying for relief. Esrl FITZWILLTAM presented a similar petition from the dissenters of Market.Harborough. The noble earl also presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce and Manufacturers of the city of Edinburgh, praying for a modification of the corn laws. The noble earl wculd take that opportunity of saying that it was his intention, during the session, to call the attention of the house to the subject of the petition. _ The Earl of DURHAM presented a petition from the inhabitants and occupiers of land of a parish in the county of Down complaining of tithes, and praying for their total abolition. MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. Mr. BETHELL, and other members of the House of Commons, brought up a bill for the better assessing and collecting the poor rates in small tenements in the city of York. Also a bill for a similar purpose in the town of Liverpool.—Read a first time. On the motion of the Duke of RICUMOND, a message was agreed to the House of Commons, requesting them to furnish that house with a copy of the report of the select committee appointed in the year 1825 relative to the levy and expenditure of the county rates. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the Exchequer Bills Bill, and Extent in Aids Bill were se verally read a second time and ordered to be committed. The house then adjourned to Monday next. ROUSE OF COMMONS, FEB. 28. The SPRAYER took the chair at a quarter past five. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the shepherds at Romney Marsh, for the repeal of the house duty. Lord ALTHORP was in bopes that a prospect of relief might be extended on that subject. Mr. LYALL moved for a return of the quantity of leaf tobacco used in England and Ireland. Mr. HYATT moved for a return of the quantity of sheep and iamb!: wool imported into the united kingdom. Mr. P. THOMSON objected to the motion, inasmuch as that return would come before the house in the ordinary course of business. Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY begged to ask the noble lord (Althorp) whether it was the intention of his Ma jesty's government to proceed with the law of patents, of which notice bad been given ? Lord ALTHORP Said that it was not. _ . . Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a return of the criminal calendar for the county of Meath Spring Assizes, 1834, distinguishing the number of prisoners and those on bail, with the offences of which they stand charged. Mr. FINN moved for returns from the Court of Chan cery of the various causes, re-hearings, pleas, demurrers, and exceptions, which have been contested, and the bankrupt petitions which have been contested and heard and decided, by the Chancellor in each year during the last three years, with the number of days the Chancellor sat, and the number of hours each day. Also similar returns from the Courts of Equity, King's Bench, and Common Pleas.—The returns were ordered. Mr. D. W. HARVEY begged to ask when the report of the ecclesiastical commissioners would be laid before the house ? Lord ALTHORP assured the hon. member that would be produced as speedily as possible. In answer to a question from Mr. GOULBURN— Mr. LITTLETON said that the question respecting tithes was still before the council. Mr. SHELL gave notice of his intention to move for copies of treaties and communications between this go vernment and the Russian government respecting our com mercial relations. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. A message from the Lords was communicated, re questing a copy of the report of the committee appointed by this house in the session of 1825, on the expenditure of the country, and of the minutes of evidence taken before it..—Agreed to. Mr. COBBETT, in allusion to the proposed alteration in the stamp duties last session, which terminated with out that alteration being carried into effect, begged to ask if it was the intention of his Majesty's 'Ministers to intro duce any measure of that description in the present session? Mr. SPRING RICE said that it was true those alter ations had not been carried into effect, but the subject had not been forgotten. A bill was in the course of prepara tion, and he hoped that in a short time it would be brought forward. Mr. BARING wished to know from the noble lord whether it was the noble lord's intention to bring before !Ile house the subject of the commutation of tithes in England this session, and more especially if be meant to :disclose the nature of the measure before it was introduced ? Lord ALTHORP had thought it right to bring forward all the estimates in the first instance, and those he appre hended would occupy every order day until Easter. He had no objection, however, to open the plan on some day before the nolideys, though he should not then be able to proceed with the bill.—(Cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL said that a person of the name of Dundas bad been removed from the police in Ireland, who, be had understood, had subsequently been ap pointed to the office of stipendiary magistrate in the colonies. If the right lion. secretary for the colonies was not now prepared to answer the question whether that was so or not, he desired it to be understood that be would ask the question formally on Monday. Mr. STANLEY had no objection to consider the ques tion as asked now, and to which he had a very short an• ewer. He had no power whatever to appoint any Ma gistrate in the colonies; nor did be believe that any person had been appointed to the office of a stipendiary magistrate in the colonies who had ever been connected with the police either in England or Ireland. If the hon. and learned gentleman had taken the trouble to have in formed him privately of what he had wished to know on this subject, he bad no doubt he should have been able to have given him a satisfactory answer, and which, per baps, would have been the most convenient way. Mr. HUME wished to ask the right hon. gentleman op p es ;te whether be had completed the arrangement which be proposed last year, of having all the acts of parliament ready to be i srinted, and immediately after their passing, to be obtained by Any person iu a cheap form. Mr. SPRING jJCE was understood to say he had not yet been able to complete the arrane ' einent, which I.e considered to be very desirable, and the great object of which was to have the acts obtained by individuals at as small an expense as possible. On the motion that the Louse do go into a committee of supply, Mr. F. O'CONNOR rose to speak to the motion of which he had given notice, but was interrupted by the Speaker until the order of the day should be read. On the order of the day being read, the hon. member did not rise again, and the Speaker left the chair, which was taken by Mr. BERNAL, the house resolving itself into a cotninittee. SUGAR DUTIES. Lord ALTHORP, being called, said that he had already given notice of a committee of ways and means, and lie now proposed that the amount of sugar duties for the next year should be the same as that for the past. It was not his intention to make any alteration—(A greatnoise in the house, and cries of " Order.") He did not think that, in the circumstances of the country, it was either desirabh iction of sugar duties, taking into taxation, or that at the present to make any alteration in the duties were raised. lie did .nt time it would be prudent to inter duties. lie would, therefore, effect that they should be con tinued up to the stivi6f July.—(Hear, hear.) There were two grounds upon which he thought it ad visable that the duties should be continued to the Sri of July rather than to the Sib of April. It was, as he had formerly stated, of great public convenience, that she fiaanc:ial year should be so altered, and he thought desirable that they should continue to . ltroceed in the same course. If any objections should be made to his Rroposi• lion, he would reserve to himself the right of making any observations upon them which he thought fit. He would conclude by moving that the several duties upon sugar and molasses, should be continued without any alteration. Mr. CUTLER FERGUSSON slid be expected that, after 20,000,0001. bad been voted for the relief of the planters of the West Indies, and the West India interest being in that manner relieved, it would have been consi dered, at least justice would have been done, by doing something for the East India Proprietors. The sugars of the West Indies were subjected to a duty quiteCpropor tionate to that which the East Indies were cted to. He considered that after the country had made such sacrifices for the relief of the West India interest, it was full time that the house should consider in what situation the East India proprietors were. They had a right to expect that the house would consider their interests, and be had expected that a petition would have been presented to-day from a great body of men, which would show the injurious effects of a great and enormous duty being con tinued on East India sugar. He dill not mean to make any specific proposition at present, but he knew the time was fast approaching when the house would be bound to look to the intereqs of the East Indies. By the bill that bad been passed last session they had been placed on a very great inequality, not only with respect to the duties on sugars, but also on the importation of all their produce, the consequence of which had been, that hundreds of thousands of persons had been driven out of employment, and bad almost perished from want.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the noble lord would give the house some assurance, seeing the evil was so mischievous, that something would be done for the East Indies as well as for the West. Mr. EWART conceived that there was no greater evil done to a country than there bad been done to limn. dostan, by the uniform despotism exercised over several branches of trade which formerly flourished there, but were now extirpated.—(Hear.) The cotton trade was completely annihilated. Take the scale of unequal taxation on the produce of the western and eastern colo nies. Tobacco h.d an impost of 245. per hundred in the West Indies, and 325. in the East ; rum 9s.' a gallon in the former, 15s. in the latter ; sugar 6d. per pound in the former, and 9d. per pound in the latter. The same scale prevailed on all other excisable articles, and in the same unequal manner. There could he nts , pretext for continuing the West India monopoly. The ex . tinction of slavery was deemed necessary, and the doing away with another species of injustice was equally imperative. In consequence of the question being brought forward so early it bad prevented many petitions being presented, and as his bon friend, the member for Glasgow, was absent, whose valuable support he was promised, he would not proceed further. Mr. WARBURTON regretted the coune taken by the Government on this occasion —(Hear, hear) — not only on account of the interests of India, but also the interests of that country, because he thought that after the report made on the subject by a very distin guished chymist, Dr. Ure, no doubt could be entertained on the point that the West India interest received on the export of refined sugar—the profit of five shillings upon every cwt., and if they would calculate the amount exported, the bonus would amount to several hundred thousands per annum ? This was among the fair sub• jects of discussion when the revison of taxation and the general taxation of the country came before the house, and it was one of these taxes which pressed most severely upon the industry of this country. He thought the present one of the best opportunities to review the whole subject of the bonus or bounty to be paid on the exportation of sugar, especially when it was ccnsidered that no less a sum than twenty tnillions had been given as a bonus to the West India proprietors. He wished to know from the President of the Board ............. what steps bad been taken, or were likely to be taken, in consequence of the report of Dr. Ure, from which it was to be collected that there was either a bounty of 3s. 6d. or ss. paid nn every cwt. of refined sugar in bond. Mr. HUTT made a few observations, that were inaudi ble in the gallery. Mr. P. THOMSON stated, in answer to the member of Bridport, that the papers relitive to the experiments of Dr. Ure had been laid before the House; with respect to the bounty referred to by the hon. member, though he could not go the extent he had stated, yet he believed that the bounty paid on West India sugar at least amounted to about 4s. per cwt. Mr. R. TODD regretted that the noble lord had not hought fit to equalise the duty upon East and West India produce. He, and many tithe's, would be greatly disap 'ointed by the noble lord's statement. He hoped, however, ,at the noble lord would give some explanation of the urse which he had adopted. Lord ALTHORP said that this was a question of the greatest importance, not only to the East Indies, but to this country also. It was one that deserved the most serious consideration of the house.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The only ground upon which he proposed that these duties should be continued without alteration, was, as he hid stated, merely a question of time. He thought, considering the present state of the West India colonies, that this was the most expedient course which the house could adopt, as a different course might en danger the success of the measure passed last session with respect to' West India property.—(Hear, hear.) That was the ground on which he proceeded. With re spect to the export of West India sugar the same rule ap plied. It had been considered by Government, and be hoped it would be thought by the house, to be inexpedient at the present time to make any alteration which might increase any pressure that existed until after the measure passed last year had had a fair trial. Sir R. PEEL hoped that the hon. gentleman would still persevere in his intention of submitting this impor tant subject to the grave consideration of the house. He hoped that he would bring forward the subject, so as to have the house clearly to understand the situation of parties interested in this subject, because, as far as he could comprehend it, an act of greater injustice towards the natives of India could not be established. --(Hear, hear.) Although an attempt to establish ind.s criminate duties between two countries might not by the one he considered as an open declaration of war, yet it would not fail to make that country regard the attempt as one of the grossest acts of hostility ; and the house might depend upon it there was that growing intelligence in the natives of India that cou'd not fail to make them feel most keenly on the point.—(Hear.) Above all, it ought clearly to be understood whether this was to be considered a permanent thing or not. Those who invested capital in West India produce had a right to know whether it was to be permanent or only tempo rary. Lord ALTHORP concurred in most of the observations of the right hon. gentleman, but under the circumstances he hoped the house would not sanction the adoption of the amendment. Colonel DAVIES condemned the restrictions which had been put upon West India produce, and stated that die propositions of the lion. member for Liserpool (Mr. Ewart) (lid not affect the West India proprietors, but went merely to benefit the sugar refiners, in England. Mr. P. STEWART trusted the house would give time for the act of last session to have a !air trial; it had begun most successfully ; the grand difficulties, however, were to come, and these could only be conquered by the house allowing things to remain in their present state for a short time. When these difficulties were surmounted, he should be most ready to proceed to remedy toe measures of which the East Indians complained. Any alteration at preent, however, would only serve to embarrass all parties. Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON said that at any rate a definite period should be named at which the East Indians were to expect a removal of their grievances. Mr. WHITMORE concurred with the last speaker, and trusted that the time was not far distant when the produce of the East Indian colonies should be admitted on the same terms as the produce of the other colonies. This would be as great a benefit to ourselves as to the East Indians, and was as much a paint of good policy as of justice. The duties on all foreign sugars were prohi• bitory, and if we did not lower the duty on all our own sugars, we should in all probability find the amount im ported considerably lessened, and the price greatly raised. It was certain the country would nut accede to the grant of 20 millions, made in the last session, to indemnify the slave owners, if it were not believed that at the earliest possible period, all restrictions would be removed. There might be grounds for Government not taking up the mea sure this session, but Le hoped as soon as possible that mi -1 nisters would take it in hand. Mr. STANLEY was happy to perceive that there was a uniformity of opin:on amongst all the hon. members who had addressed the house upon the subject before them. All seemed to agree as to the necessity of adjusting and assimilating the duties at no distant period. — (Cheers.) There were two points which urg-d them selves upon the consideration of the house. The first was the impolicy, if not the inexpediency, of affording pro tection to any one in particular of the colonies, to the dis advantage or injury of the others. And it would, in the next place, be highly improper and inexpedient, in the present state of things, consequent upon the alteration .- made in the condition of the slave population of the West Indies by the act of the last session, to make any further experiments until the working of that measure had been fairly tried. In compassing that measure, government had I many difficulties to contend with. They had not only to bring public opinion over to a measure involving a certain loss, but they had to contend with strong prejudices, provide against numerous, and, in some instances, perhaps, unfore seen dangers, and to wrestle with difficulties that, at first sight, appeared insurmountable.—(Cheers.) But by the liberality of Parliament adopting a course as wise as it was prudent, the dangers and difficulties were overcome. — (Hear.) The result had proved that the measure was wise and prudent, even though accompanied with an ex pense of twenty millions. The success of the experiment had fully justified it, and time had given assurance that those fearful insurrections—those tremendous convulsions, and dreadful disturbances which some had foreboded, and which even the most sanguine could scarcely assure them selves would not oceur.—( Loud cheers.) The prospect of success from the measure was daily augmenting, the hopes growing more healthy, the fears diminishing, and it would, at present, be highly impolitic to mar a measure which had so happily begun.—( Hear, hear.) Any alte ration now would be exceedingly premature—it would be but the letting loose of fresh elements of discord where strife had but just subsided.—(Cheers.) His noble friend had made the claim of time the ground of his objection. He (Mr. S.) would make the same chains. In his offi cial capacity he disclaimed the intention of favouring any one particular colony to the exclusion of others, but in taking the subject of equalization under their consideration, the house was bound to remember that the West Indies were subject to restrictions from which the East were free. Before proceeding with equalization, the West Indies had a claim on the government to relax the restrictions which pressed upon them, and assuredly, previous to an attempt to equalize, it would be im prudent and unadvised in the big heat degree to neutralize the attempt by any disturbing force. The house was further bound to give to the West Indian interest full, fair, and timely notice of the intention to equalize, that ptepa_ rations might be made accordingly. The intention would be given by the discussion that evening. It would show how far the doctrines of free trade grew with the growth Of opinion —(Cheers) —that they were becoming strong and general ; and the hint of the hon. baronet (the mem. ber for Tamworth) would not fail of producing the salu- tary and desired effect on the parties concerned in the event. In the meantime he would pray the house not to be premature on a question following, and, in some mea sure, id. ntified with a late proceeding, which ter its conduct had been so difficult and delicate. Assuredly there was ground to require time on such a subject. If the house did not delay the entertaining a measure of equalization until the rate of labour from that which was compulsory to that which was free were adjusted, it was at least bound to grant sufficient time to give those interested full notice. —(Hear, hear.) They should allow time for the late measure to settle down into its consequences, and not dis turb that settlement by the introduction of anything which might have a counteracting force. It was in the ab stract highly proper that Government should place upon an equal footing the rival productions of the several colo nies; but, under the circumstances which he had stated and of which the house was already fully aware, it would be exceedingly bard if they should proceed to do so in the present year.—(Hear.) Nor should the Government be asked for any pledge binding them to proceed in this mat ter at any definite period. It was sufficient that they ad mitted the principle—(Cheers)—and thence'orward it would be their duty to watch events, take advantage of circumstances, and make the best calculations for reducing their theories into practice.—(Hear, bear.) But it would be more wise not to carry the theory into practice until they made sufficient provision that no obstacle would lie in the way to impede its working. He trusted that the house would pursue this line of action—that they would proceed, not precipitately, but with steadiness guided by caution, with justice aided by expediency, and with a due regard to that liberal policy which so enligh tened and extensive an empire demanded.—(Cheers.) Mr. A. BARING was of opinion that in the foreign market the equalization would take place, as by that in a great degree the price was regulated. He agreed that the principle should not be hastily acted upon in the present circumstances, but when they did proceed with it, the main difficulty would be found in the different qualities of the articles produced, that of the east being more refined than the produce of the west. He entirely con curred in what had been urged with regard to the equali zation of the interest. It was true that the measure of ' last year had put an end to slavery in our own country ; but if facts stated in the public papers were true, the foreign slave trade was sill going on, with all its frightful and revolting consequences.—(Hear.) The newspapers were his authority, but the hon. baronet at the bead of the Admiralty might, perhaps, say whether these state ments were well founded. One vessel was stated to have on board from 400 to 500 human beings, and another, of only 75 tons burden, had on board 250 slave children. —(Hear.) These statements of the newspapers had been corroborated by private information. It would be very unfair that Spain and Portugal, both which countries had been well paid for coming into our scheme of humane policy, should be permitted to evade the engagements they entered into, and carry on their horrid traffic to an extent of which few were aware. Was it for this that valuable colonies were h.zarded—that the same atrocities might go on with even additional horrors of human sacrifice ? He would not proceed further on the topic, but content him self by inquiring if government had received any informa tion on the subject ; and if so, what steps they had taken in consequence, to enforce the engagements entered into with other powers? Sir JAMES GRAHAM, having been asked the ques tion, felt great pleasure in assuring the house that this im portant matter had not been overlooked. He felt there was reason to apprehend some truth in the statements, and he felt bound to say, that in Cuba in particular this traffic was on the increase. But directions had been forwarded to the Admiral on the West India station to surround the island and prevent any future traffic. In addition to this, a steam vessel of great power had been also sent forward, and would be found of great utility in effectually suppress ing the traffic. Arrangements to the same e ffect had been made with the Brazilian government, which, acting in concord with the Admiral on the West India station, would operate with great effect. France, too, was not forgetful of her engagements. The power of reciprocal search had heed effectually acted on, and the trade which used to be carried on under the flag of France was now almost extinct. Such were the measures to which go vernment had already resorted—(Hear) —nor would they relax in exertion not alone imposed by bonds of treaties, but imperatively demanded at their hands by the claims of humanity. Doctor LUSHINGTON contended that the entire sup pression of the traffic in slaves could not be effected by any efforts of the British government, inasmuch as the treaties into which they had entered with the other States were defective, and it was impossible to put an end to it by the powers granted to this by foreign governments. As far as regarded Africa, the right of search was only confined to particular parts of the coasts, and the greatest abuses might take place in those excepted. After the sacrifice made by this country, she might be permitted to claim fuller righis ; and it would not be too much to demand from France a right and power of search in eve r y part of th. ocean. To those who knew how inhumanely the traffic was carried on, no force of language would seem exaggerated in describing it, or no words too strong to denounce. When this subject was before tinder discussion, be was deemed by the West Indians to be their bitterest enemy, but at pres-nt he would prove himself their advocate. The general principle involved in the inquiry was true; but just at present, when the fate of the West Indies bung upon the experiment, it would be of very dangerous application. Not only would it jeopardise human life, but materially interfere with the success of a measure, the consequence of which was of the utmost importance. At this hour, and at this crisis, the house ought to be very cautious not to diminish or weaken any motive which might have a ten dency to give the new system full and fair effect.-- (Cheers.) Any new measure might make the late expe riment one fraught with danger to the future condition of the slave population. How did they stand now ? Their present condition was one calculated to excite to industry, and on that industry depended the welfare of the colonies and tbeir inhabitants. Indeed, more than this depended on the successful issue of the experiment. It was to stano as an example to all other nations, and by the success or failure of this effort would they be influenced.—(Cheers.) Until this crisis was past—until the prosperity of the West Indies was established on a sure and firm bisis—no other ex periments should be made, which might hazard the present safety and future regeneration of these great colonies. Mr. GLADSTONE was opposed to taking any hasty steps. He was nearly connected with one of the islands from which very alarming accounts had been recently re ceived. They stated that the negrues hail arisen, bad beaten the whites, refused to work, and had cut the throat of a manager's horse. Mr. LYALL observed upon the conditions on which the manufactures of India were received in this country, and ours there. Our relations with that country should be conducted on principles of justice; and it should be re membered, that India paid a tribute of three or lour mil lions, for which this country made no return. He trusted, when the hon. member for Liverpool again brought forward the question, these points would be taken into the consideration of the house. An Hori. Allama wished to do away with the asper- sions likely to fall upon Dr. Ure, in consequence of the language used by the member for Lancashire. The report which bad been alluded to was in the bands of every mem her, and would speak for itself. The aspersions of his hon. friend were very inapplicable, as Doctor Ure had not been named by the Government, but recommended by gentlemen closely connected with the West India interest. Mr. COBBETT regretted that the bon. member for the Tower Hamlets had made so broad an allusion to America with regard to its slaves. Indeed, he (Mr. Cobbett) did not like the allusion made to America in his Majesty's speech. There were not - two million slaves in the Union. There could not be. He regretted such statements should be made, as if to throw the Americans into the shade by the comparison ; but if we could boast of our conduct with regard to negro emancipation, .they could set against u., as a balance, their getting rid of paper money, and in this would be found an ample com pensation.—(Hear, and laughter.) The resolution was then agreed to, and the report or dered to be received on Monday. SUPPLY. Lord ALTHORP having moved the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee of supply, Mr. F. O'CONNOR rose and proposed his motion, " That, by not attending at the morning sittings of the House of Commons, his Majesty's ministers have not con formed to the pledge given by them in the last session of parliament ; and also, that this house deems it essential, as much from a sense of justice to the people as of respect to their representatives, that some member of his Majesty's government should attend during the presentation of the petitions of his 1114-sty's loyal subjects." The ministers had pledged themselves, when the arrangement for the morning sittings was first made, that at least one would be in constant attendance during the presentation of peti tions. Was this also to go into the general sack of unre deemed pledges? What excuse could the noble lord give for not performing this pledge, which was voluntarily given ? If the house wee content with the absence of ministers, of course he could say no mote about it. lie should never bring forward the motion again ; but be should certainly feel it is duty to keep up at least as full an attendance of members during the morning sittings as he could; and he would count the house day by day, if lie did not find forty members present.—(oh, oh !) The other day there were only twenty one members present ; hut no sooner had he made his motion than eighty-one immediately made their appearance.--(A laugh.) There were plenty of members to be found in the committee rooms; but the moment he got upon his legs, the com mittee rooms were emptied, and down • they all came run ning into the house. Really more attention should be paid to this very important portion of their business. Mr. O'CONNELL seconded the motion. Lord ALTHORP said the hon. gentleman was correct in stating, that when he proposed the morning sittings, he promised that either himself or some o ther cabinet minis ter would attend during that period and, at the com mencement of last session, he endeavour ed to fulfil his en gagement ; but he must fairly admi t, that be found it utterly impossible to continue the prac tice. —(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") The physical exertion of attending the house morning and evening, independently of the other illness which calls upon his time, was too gre at, and the greatwhi c h e o h n e fi s n u e ff m e r e e n d t. during e a l r a , s t h s e e a s r s . i n This) was a s t u t b r i j b e u ct t e h d a t d o b t h e e a n t once before brought forward, after the last Easter reces., and he then understood it to be the general feeling of the house that his attendance would not be expected.—(Heat..) He then said, that, whenever any individual mintier in tended to present a petition, or bring on an y other busi ness which required his attendance , an d would give him notice beforehand, he would attend in his place, and he could appeal to several hon. members to say, whether he had ever failed doing so, when he received notice.— (Hear, hear.) Indeed, the presence of one cabinet minister would not be of any great use; for, unless the subject happened to relate to his particular department—and even then, in many cases, unless previous notice had been given to him—he would be unable to give any satisfactory answer. —(Hear.) Certainly, if it were the general wish of the house that he should attend, it would be his duty to do so.-(General cries of " No, no !") But he really thought his doing so would be of no advantage to the public, but would interfere materially with the business of the nation. —(Hear.) With these remarks, he should leave it to the house to say, whether cr not they would adopt the motion of the hon. member.—(Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL could not attribute any blame, per sonally, to the noble lord ; but thought it very desirable that Ministers should be present during the reception of petitions. He had presented many petitions, which he would have wished the noble lord to have heard, and would have given him notice accordingly, but for the uncertainty as to the time when he might be able to bring them on. Really something ought to he done. The house ought to deliberate, and form some plan for altering the hours of sitting.—(Hear, hear.) That house was the only house that did business by night. They should sit in the day ; the day should be devoted to business, and the night to repose.--(Oh, oh.) The protracted sittings of that house were ruinous to the health of members, and of no real ad vantage to the public.—(Hear, hear.) When he first came into that house, and be was but a young member, it sat only four days a week, now it sac five days, and had some times sat six. By a plan which he could propose, their sit tings might be confined to three days in the week. The house originally met at seven in the morning, subsequently at nine, then at one in the afternoon, and thus these bad habits had gradually crept upon them. The house ought not to sit after nine o'clock in the evening. No business could be well done after that hour. Speech-making might go on very well—(Hear, hear)—but no real business could be done.—(Hear, hear.) After the explanation which had been given, he recommended his honourable friend to withdraw his motion, and he hoped that either he or some other member wou'd bring forward a distinct proposition to alter the hours of that house. Thirty or forty members combining together could certainly compel early adjourn ments of the bowie, but that would be a very disagreeable alternative to resort to. Mr. COBBETT complained of the time wasted in useless discussion in that house. They were that evening going to vote 6,000,0001. after eight o'clock, and it would be nine o'clock before they began to vote. Mr. HUME agreed that it was impossible for members who properly attended to their duties to support the great fatigue consequent upon the late hours and long sittings of that house.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped the question would be taken up, and that the house would take into consideration the propriety of adjourning at ten o'clock at the latest.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. F. O'CONNOR, in consequence of the unanimous expression of feeling in the house, withdrew his motion. —( Hear.) The SPEAKER then put the question, that the order of the day for going into Committee of Supply be now read. Colonel DAviEs and Mr. BUTHVEN rose together to move their respective amendments; but The SPEAKER decided that Colonel Davies's amend ment could not be moved at the present stage of the business. Mr. RUTHVEN then proceeded to read his amend ment," That it is expedient to take into consideration the state of the currency, and the national debt—(oh ! oh)— so that such modifications may be made of the public bur dens of the country as may enable the people to sustain the charges and es tablishments necessary for the public service." The army estimates were greater now than they were in the olden and better times, before the change had taken place in the currency and the national debt had attained its present enormous amount. Whenever any thing was said respecting the national debt or the cur rency, there was always an attempt to get up an alarm, and to raise an outcry about the national faith. The o` jest of his motion was to afford an opportunity ofan swering some of the very unfounded charges and insinu ations which had been thrown out against certain persons on this subject. The greater part of the enormous debt of 800,000,0001. was contracted in one currency whilst the interest was paid in another, which was most unjust. Justice to the public and the nation at large called on !hem to consider whether they could not come to some equitable arrangement, so as to secure to one party the permanent payment of a proper and fair interest; and to the other relief from the unjust burden imposed upon them by the obligation of paying the interest of the debt in a currency different to that in which it was contracted.—(Hear.) At no great distance of time, some financial operation of this kind must inevitably take place, and the sooner they fairly met the difficulty the better. After a few further observations, the hon. member concluded by moving the amendment which we have already described. Lord ALTHORP expressed his conviction that the house did nut expect him to enter largely into the subject touched upon by the hon. gentleman. Never, indeed, fullyle it H w e ° eu r xl i p g l r a e bi t en t e e d dt r t t oh la ue a b t l ion t b l gj i e e et h th o eh n eh . o g hu e as n d vain were he to enter into a ny l engt h ene d di squ i s i t i on on, t nad so large a question been introduced by so sma ll a in 13 1.1 . a — d A ( s n A l t l a m u u g o a l r i s e . ! s view.o a p a e c in the subject. Mr. O'CONNELL hoped • his hon. colleague would not press his motion.—(A laugh.) He (Mr. O'Connell) had given notice, for next M on d ay wee k, o f a mot i on , i n which the subject would be discussed at length. Mr. HUME observed, that the hon. mover did not seem to have beets well understood. The argument of his hon. friend was, that as there had been a great change in the standard, that change ought to be made applica ble to the army expenditure. He hoped, however, that hie hon. friend would not press the motion on the present , occasion. Mr. COBBETT contended that the change in the currency ought to produce the reduction for which the hon. member of Dublin bad argued. Mr. RUTHVEN, in reply, stated that he had not the slightest notion of the existence cif the notice of motion which his hon. colleague had intimated his intention to bring forward. He would not withdraw his amendment, although he would not divide the house upon it. The amendment was then negatived without a division. The order of the day was then read. On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, Colonel DAVIES rose, in consequence of his notice for an amendment to the effect that a select committee be appointed to inquire into the military establishment and expenditure of the colonies. Adverting, however, to an intimation from the noble Paymaster of the Forces, the ....... gallant colonel (as we understood him) expressed his per suasion that government en t e rt a i ned every wishtodiminish the public expenditure in that department ; and his disposition not to press his amendment. Mr. COBBETT took the opportunity of alluding to the case of a Mr. Burgess, whose petition had been pre sented to the house in the course of the present session. Mr. Burgess had been charged with insanity, but there was abundant proof that he was a man of great sobriety of mind and intelligence. What he wished was, that Mr. Burgess's petition should be referred to the committee move 'l for by the gallant colonel. Mr. Burgess had de clared that he could bring to light acts which would have the effect of restoring to the treasury of England three or four hundred thousand pounds, which had been squan- dered in Canada. Mr. M. ATTWOOD, adverting to the subject of the commissioners, who bad been employed for some time in arranging the details of the commercial intercourse he ”veen England and France, and more especially in inves tigating the practicability of withdrawing certain duties im posed by the two governments, wished to know if there was any objection to lay the reports of those commission- ers on the table ? Lord ALTHORP replied, that he was not prepared to make an immediate answer to the Hon. Member, but that he would do so‘at a future period. Mr. ROBINSON expressed his surprise that the noble lord was not prepared to give a direct answer to the ques tion which had been put to him by his hon. friend, as in the other house of parliament it had been stated, in an. swer to a similar question, that directions should be given to lay the reports of the commissioners in question on the table. As nearly two years had elapsed since these com missioners, who were paid large salaries, had been actively employed in the investigation intrusted to them, he thought it was high time that some information . , should be given with respect to the result of their labours. Lord ALTHORP replied that there were circumstances which induced him to object giving an immediate answer to the question which had been put to him. Mr. STANLEY observed, that when any hon. member objected to the motion to the Speaker's leaving the chair in order that the house should resolve itself into a committee of supply, it was natural to expect that the ob jection should have some connection with the subject which was about to be discussed in that committee. Now he did not think that the case of Mr. Burgess had much to do with the subject which was about to be discussed that evening. The case of Mr. Burgess had been dis cussed last session. It turned upon various questions of account. Mr. Burgess obtained large sums from the ordnance department. During the progress of the inves tigation Mr. Burgess disappeared. The ordnance depart ment would be glad to see Mr. Burgess in this kingdom in order that the matter might be put in course of settle ment. But Mr. Burgess was in the United States ; and he (Mr. Stanley) could show from certificates that Mr. Burgess was labouring under insanity, arising from the too free use of ardent spirits. He was glad to find that his lion. and gallant friend was not disposed to press his mo tion for a committee of inquiry into the military establish ment and expenditure of the colonies, because he was per suaded that if such a committee bad been appointed, it could not have led to any satisfactory result. At the same time he (Mr. Stanley) had no wish to conceal any part of the colonial expenditure, but would be happy to afford any explanation respecting it which might be re quired. He was persuaded he should be able to show that the military expenditure of the colonies was not on any extraordinary scale, and could not , be safely subjected to any considerable reduction. Af•er a few words from Mr. HUME, who complained of malversation with respect to artillery in the colonies, The SPEAKER put the question, that he do now leave the chair. Mr. COBBETT expressed his hope that the right hon. gentleman would not leave the chair that n , ght.— (A loud laugh.) He remonstrated against voting away millions of the public money alter nine o'clock at night. The SPEAKER called the lion. member to order. He had already spoken on the question. The motion was then agreed to, and the house resolved itself into the committee. Mr. ELLICE began by declaring that he would waste as little of the time of the committee as it was in his power to do. The shortest course which, in his opinion, it was practicable for him to take, was to enter into a comparison between the army estimates of the present, and the army estimates of the past year. At the very outset, he begged to congratulate the committee on those altered circumstances of the country which warranted a considerable reduction in our military establishments, and on his being thereby enabled to present the lowest esti mates which had occurred since the Irish Union. The committee would observe, that we should be enabled, in the course of the year, to reduce our force to 80,000 men. The reductions he had to propose in the number of officers would amount only to three—the colonel of a Ceylon regiment and two second majors of cavalry—the whole of which were now in process of extinction. The reductions in rank and file would be 550 its the Cavalry, 6,640 in the Infantry, and 550 in the Font Guards. The saving which he calculated on the entire estimate would amount, in round numbers, to 200,0001. By certain arrangements, which were then nearly complete, he looked forward to effecting consirierable reductions in the emoluments of the colonels of regiments, and ultimately to a saving of '75 0001. on casualt'es, which were not to be filled up. 2,0001. would be saved from the sum of 6,000/., for nicely voted for the table of the officers of the Guards— (Hear)—.and for this he claimed credit for the government; for though they bad not, porhaps, effected as much as some members in that hone might require, and which hereafter might be accomplished, this very arrangement would show the disposition they had to meet the reason able wishes of the country. He would not then go into details; they could be better discussed as each item was proposed ; but the whole saving for the efficient land force would tie 111,3421. 15s. 2d. On the staff there would be a saving of between 1,0001. and 2,0001., although in the estimates the charge showed an increase on the pre cdofh:iii.l'dbttlrwie no conclusion oorf ceding year ; but this was owing to a new arr f ange h m fi ent, is bk - which certain garrison appointments came, or t e rst time, under this head. The next item which showed a reduction wit., the public departments, and here the saving was 4,3141. 9s. 2d. The medical board had been in cluded in the land force charge. There was a saving from the Royal Military Asylum for the education of the soldiers ; but on this he should at present say nothing, as he had so arranged it, having a balance from former years, as to ask for no specific vote till the whole q d .twhh u iih e idsr s e e t nitd i t o he t n or nhi une o gytt f hoh c t e, t h a iih e mtnoe t in w jait. sco o ndot f uhe o r nde u ya n bvn d teooc a rt a t el i fo o :o n ir kit s st Dbe vl h uef t a ,rl b, d ylaei unl b eldo e xis e xipeva n ri dhye is t e h a o eo d u p b h b oi y on t i n o a - 1 the house. He next came to the volunteer c rhi o : r o p ht s e)h . edid U du, p tn o ioe n : goes . t n i,p , eo w sr ht h ioo i un c i h do , e e t ha t eb h l o el u a nt g od h d t f , (0, i r t et oe w , h o ai u sn l ds d aht b ie e s f h b a (l e a t t di t o e cn r 0. t m o el a n n t o s e w : nh e re sequence of what had passed in that house last -ear he that f thr e e a y s e ar the s— l o r Irish I i a tcaolrips events, had if f t a been p ,cratliloend bad been employed the other bad riot—he might omit any vote on that account.—(Hear, hear.) In another branch of this force he had also succeeded in effecting reductions. It had hitherto been the custom to call out the various yeo manry corps on what was called permanent duty for the pur pose of training, and the pay to each was '7s. 6d. per diem. The pay for training in quarters was just half of that; and so, by doing away with the permanent duty, there would be a saving of 3s. 6d. each man. He had been the more anxious to make the reduction at the present time, as this year there would be an addition to the ordinary expenses of such corps for new clothing, but he was happy to say he had so arranged it that even with this additional vote, there would be a positive saving to the public under this head. He would not, however, fatigue the house by going through the estimates item by item, as they could be more fully explained on each sp cific vote, but would state that the total saving would be 200,000/., in which he included a sum of 30,000 L, Exchequer fees, for which credit had not been taken. It was now his duty to state what had been done in the higher departments of the ser vice. In obedience to the recommendation of the corn inittee, the various items had been placed under their pt o• per beads ; so strictly had this been attended to, that not one shilling would be found under a head for which it had s not av i o been recommendedfi de bexpended.--( committee colonels of regiments, had been made. s cants, tat od , hadto be oo t sure, o 6 bad l le occurred do p . ho and i t s l o ) i O n s, n o l a y i s i also been dealt with according to their sugg e o gt :r a . s re although such appointments bad been retal estimates hospital x there peos o h s , a d which always quired the performance of effective duties, linrUebdeearrt.he beadsv:. Ano ther as circumstances might require.--(Heir, bear.) In former nexed them to the Staff estimates, so as tothberyinbgattd`lbv;;; alteration was with respect to the Guards. it was obj every year under the notice of Parliament, to be3t:eh°la:lteriqb:eeaf.oinatredune:_ provided be had thought i men on the establishment. For this manage better to substitute a vote enabling. the guar" to huie be placed ect u i their own recruiting and hospital expenses, w the amounted to 8,7801. He should not disguise front 0 house that all these allowances found their way, soonert. that I pl a er t ae e : r ee , o t t o the the stock purse i i f the regiment. He admitted 0 1) ,,. ', be well paid, and that the house and the country so wished t : it, h e t h oug h t it much better that such charges should n.os been a I f o e t r e d ft rh o oe . m m wn living anxious to form for the guards a regulation in lieu of that t 4fo6r4r, recruiting strndt which had been so long established ; and if he bad nor a o tnte n t,leis a lerui la r 1 e fictitious a a t n i t d i 0 :e s : i e vbienagd heads. that every T h er eofaffirceer, he teas l s it was e a a b e r a c . d e: n s of cteh l i re t t e b ami e w nel i g ty l h u . no fault of his. If the house would give ht same credit wit' year ?9, °? d e would earnestly tr , endeavour by next year to place the mat 1 sad could . weree moremi wholly fao r l cg e hai c ise, i e eiw d t aea alterations sa d nt , de xp h ltit e e.enesnss w edntne o hfftd u iess l nt d tasoaai ovd assure dhipointeroimnthtelhresitsb( committee an. eald t:hiliry ,i do.—( Hear.) go at a more rapid pace than be was dispoe d they h ould assure the committee, that however anxious to the cost, in fact, no more than the effective force of the line- - ' i oa e ip d rodpisie.sn, here n ayT t n o hdae s o a nydr regiments thing i f h e o w iaonr gte w s c; o , or r bfdaast another' gunort t o t br:ii o e: il did not occasion the expenditure on them of one shilling more than was called for by the necessities of an equa l number of men from other corps. (Mr. Hume was 0 0 ' derstood to express some sur p rise.) If the bon. member a for Middlesex doubted what he said, he assured him he ws° 1 able and willing to convince him by a reference to doer runts. The next po i nt which had been urged in the :, report of the committee which sat last year, was as to reduction in the pay and allowances of a certain nurnb e r I of general officers, who, rather by aceident,she believe° , than design, had been include d in certain distributißoiabe, which had been made at the end oft e year in 1 re ~ Now, when he looked at the ag es of these different ofte ia ~ —the average of them being sixty-five, he found he eh al- he making a much better bargain for the public, by for r c ed om ue m ti a o n n de o r f -in th -C e h s ie ta f ff ag a ai t ns h t e a ad n : lowing them to retain their annuities, than providing them in any other way. 'there was one point of eronli which, although recommended by the committee, he u found it impossible to carry into effect --be allu d e d to o , committee would abstain from entering into any "''a b ° a on this point till the vote itself was before th em , a' by w t e lt he would show the reasons which bad been pleaaeu - 8 all the recommendations of the committee. In the cll . / 1 . missions on the estimates last sear, he bad bound h t o res by certain promises to remedy some abuses in the el'a,- of the present year which had been pointed out to II After a few remarks on the Royal Military myho, lit Hibernian School, which were a mere repetition °' (le a former observations, the right hon. secretary proeee of to express his intention of winding up the affa ir° o f tt Kilmaitsbam Hospital, and transferring such Pa ll 10 the establishment as it might be necessary to retain the Irish Ordnance Department. In Chelsea HoP ita w as, was ample accommodation for all those pensioneora.a,,teetio from the circumstance of being without relatives a d ir a 1• 3 V) ' l or from other motives, might prefer an in-penstu ogees out-pension life. The number of persons r eceiviugir web' of this kind was about 85,000, and he tbougbt t. e _ OO advantageous both for England and Ireland, t ba; o h _ u su eo f thus paid by the justice and the liberality of 9,.. r e. of should be spread over as wide a surface as 10 e t, P:hould oe-c These mere course to those who chose to go out he , ihn eity inducements to do so, but there were several in rta su l be made;e of barn infirmary for whom provision ought to as there was at Island Bridge, the great artillery:l7oo Ireland, every convenience, it was his intentiooitd be e pr e. the there. By this step the Machinery O u aou ld err r rilserved,heeqarotnibre learned brought tatimntids: member tt f ,bhe t eoai b rsn e utfooro circumstances• Dublin,• saving• establishment ln a2 o . t f :oh t oeH h o e el i. o t o i wao l in : adgi e utt s blaidteit e rti„ . u . 0_ .7.pe dr ree f fence, jocita i poyb ot,t ...i. : l i ll, He hoped that no impression would be td lo°- - as ten d 7a abroad, that by this arrangement any injustice ura',. - u , $5 to Ireland. He gave his solemn pledge to th e re '," phe hear.) Before the present session, a cou 3 any advantage of one country over th e government, to inquire into and report appointed at the urgent request of naatlY frien ds t)the esed head-quarters, boded,:, coo n" , diency of consolidating the various civil deP a idle' b e en ree l the service. That commission bad lined'v a nd g r e a much valuable information had been g boy/ e re progress made. Gentlemen were little awar s o th of pains and labour, and anxious thought• e plea! alterations required. It was easy to (01.01_1_ effaet.:: but it was difficult indeed so to carry then:l.l°7 „aOOI, t, make them work well for the public seervol_ceogjorit;, pating, in some degree, the report of this se °l to c one°_,A might now state that it was already prop° _ o u uata a blu: o date the Board for controlling the artnY a: ad a lso P o with the Secretary at War's department; ree d with o f branch of the War Office which was eh°espeasefor his department, and would effect a,considervot o ily de t w ori the country. It was also proposed, though n the - Ili t'l officers' half pay. This would not add to t he n _ ie wring are mined on, to transfer the Commissariat Iron y , cou rse, to the War Office ; leaving to the Treasury, el colulli".set necessary control over the chests for th ar rang e tai, , (Hear, hear.) He might also say, that o u r ' to a ceT fl o muipssoioaasof to was in contemplation, by which to inlP°..,' whooTie4g, extent, a restraint on the half-pay of a ll tl°7 of Pete hereafter get into the army.—(Lon criesst th e° e ea i hear.") The details, of course, he could lied ( 106, 0 0 into. He hoped, however, from what h s l u a Cre dit % t ea what he had in prospect, that he might 2 he had l a iol the house for fulfilling such promises a nd for sv '' ' 0( which it was in his power, to fulfil, be e °cleacl / 1 .. to effect any reduction consistent with t . e estuo ,te the service.—(Lond cheers.) In 179 2 th _ ce ded ° s of 2 m , t 3 , 3, a 0, d 3 , 4 t 9 0i e l 0 f The u Right i s Hon . stiPro perid' e r empire. In 1825 a larger estimate contended that all was then done which scbments o f tlae..:o petted towards reducing military establi ~ rime 0 44 1 v 0 i The rea s°° o o was made to add to the allowance of thesoldier. ,_ enab le 0 i to i—n g e S( x iHt h i r s .ee t acar o :lo n : eßbr emoluments i eT s Et t irr h e e hT n i—s obvious. The depreciation of the times did nut ad t bst if should suffer want, when the country could ° et a !, 0 ,1 wards him. He (Mr. Ellice) had received 030- ,, eer r ,sl' lions from the country to reduce the estimate° "i 00 1 5 :, unfair, and should never lend himself to B ach (l a aut a e sent to lower. 11 i Mr. ELLICE—The lion b 0 1 0 • l; " t i . mem er In .d e rin 0, 0 should did, that the present sum which the s oldier f i e sta h o se 1. private pay,orfiug original naelnalt:soldier'so, statement, iirn o diiwe te d reao. . S p rsa : a s tt y l vhfiaß Sec re tary Yuteue°ectgaoubtv volbstjoal db.ut receive 1 1'l e. , tr:3 f a irl y le b fb e 4 . 1 017 1: :), } rt i r, „ not too much for his services and his toil. as w as b e f 1 Its Justice to the higher ranks of the artnY.,__. Tli e o fi to state, that the increase did not Of ect t h n e c n `; it : 1 4 o° I . of a colonel in the army was also,theareetead o btail? A' a the battle of Minden. The etau, an d if 10 0 0 4 increase ; the emoluments were the samet ieo. lei and gallant friend was desirous of enteringact atelor. bad done, he a se. 0 1 t o minute calculations than he the 2- ea d 1 ) wishes, but he would find the result u ipa ep better eg roc' country had now a more efficient, a ands go r b d o ol sanction r io . n o : ,c 1 0 6, N OO N O E t: provided force than they had in 179 2 ; v a! ao sny s 0 a I : more reductions, a greater increase of e . '',, ref for a; L e L o t o — p o s i T e l h h t e a l s e b P i e ° i ' P f nu i l a t,, tti° t °u h c e r i e i a g ll b ed e ,r I OOO I , ' resorted to than the interests of the pahuivrea for ' Tir I , colonies. These were necessary to be i° i iocr South Wales added to the increase. bad .ifi ' eaep ber fa i , there. ne." hip if Mr. ELLICE—The hon. and le° ii ijera - , je Al: coloniesr to oa r eis h , ie t gn . nhootssth T te.ora li db e i ceA p benni o e p eang u ri l ema a ct t ,yt i ge o ud n wi ;rhea acquired hid s welled sufssircv.eui nn e igtt l i l s e a, ( , : tifefo c t f os viry ;a loc t ti b uir e p " oose r; so I :, ; ii :lici t. r io6 . : ', and upwards of 30,000 men were Pri,;,,ea, spier il 1 - s pad c sei :sr. assistance. ai t t l i a n np y cae r : e i i s apne\ivcetuhi When . a g .. it:hi:hea rHear, emoluments thaetae hear.) . )a ll -,01:::::::::reibbi,oe104000 af the army. He should not oppose it. n id V ie , eV s' his hon. and gallant friend that he 5 1) 0 he lo t e l 1 ,9 , the house would congratulate itself vi''' e t l 1 10( i 0 io I k e , the present was the lowest estimate calle chars g e of yid ,, was 3,168,2161. for the land forces, 0 1- 1 , - be dec ov a:, which was less this year by 11.1, 3421 ,,, J. g C ;° 0 1 the tot a expenditure was 299,1221. 1 ' . 30. ' g j o l weight was lesa by 350,0001. than in i'/ do ,alla e a ,lo if credit on the part of the rmy for its a nat ieot 1 0 00 pline—its exemplary aconduct---ils a r .a .. - ite e• o ffi l/ of toil—the willingness of its obedieneabieb it orders—and the forbearing manner in If ''. I )r tight to propose any reduci .onsideratigiuktquestion of ime it aorldoper tc iraortion in. which 'these ear think, that at the preset nierfere wttli the systentof node is resolution t - the e -