The Sun. — London, England, 1827-05-15 00:00:00

Contrary to order than another, it was that frequency of allusion which had occurred in discussions of this !la m ., to the name of the Sovereign. The conduct of the Irish Co_ tholica had been frequently referred tt:, ; anti he meld not avoidsaying, that he felt great Ple...eure in the spirit of mode ration they bad lately evirrct, by which they had saved themselves from being misled by that spirit of a contrary nature which had been manifested by some Members of the other House. "i•he violent and factious conduct of these latter gentl . emen, and the moderation of the Catholics, had in therCAelves afforded him sufficient reason to be recon cikad to the postponement of the Catholic Question. He (the Earl of D.) looked to the Noble Marquis who bad recently united himself with the Members of his Majesty's Government, as he believed all mankind did, as to a man fitted to lead the Administration. Perhaps in this he parpared ` t o 7,orne measure influenced by feelings of per es, to eels from higher feelings he was pre- Marquis would not in the" of place by that Noble being useful tO hit!, country, though . A.;-t. his motives for means, and thereby contribute to show that he vagase his ago to have tilled a higher situation than that which he had been uccustomed to occupy. The good of his country would be found to be the motives that actuated the con duct of the Noble Marquis; and though he, like all other good men, might sometimes be led by the influence of his feelings beyond the limits which his natnral good sense and judgment wou ld prescr ib e, yet they might depend that no hing but the wish to advance the interests of his country would influence his conduct. Seeing, therefore, a Govern ment, if not composed, at least chiefly supported by such men, he could not but wonder at the motion of which the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Witachelsea) had given notice, and which seemed to him to have no other view than that of embarrassing his Majesty's Govern ment. Such a motion could only be expo e • r to• - en d i n rejec tion, and could have no other object t'fia n that which he had mentioned. He put it, therefo-,t, to that Noble Earl, whe ther it would not be advis :.;ble for him to abstain from pressing it upon their lordships' notice? He thought, that at the present - monrent they had no grounds nor any right to inquire whether his Majesty's confidence ought still to be P l .4eed where it had been, or whether the _ a Go vernme- , t was comp ose d, as a N o b le Lord opposite had of ..(,e, of rubbish. He certainly, if these questions were ssked him, should answer, that, composed as it was at this moment, it did not deserve any such epithet—f or it was impossible be could say that the Noble Lord who now held the Seals of the Foreign Office was incompetent to the duties of his situation. He believed indeed that that Noble Lord was quite competent to it; and if his appointment should be permanent, instead of being, as some said, tem porary, he should certainly be induced to give that Noble Lord his support. He thought the same observation would equally apply to the other Members of the present Govern ment. Under these circumstances, he was certainly pre pared to say that there should be nothing wanting on his part to support then., especially as against those who had lately possessed the chief power in the Government, since he at length saw that there was a chance of the success of those principles to which, for the most part, those of the late Administration, who were now out of offiet, except ing one Right Hon. Gentleman, had long been opposed.— He (Lord Darnley) was ready to acknowledge that Right Hon. Gentleman's talents and merits, but he co u ld esu ie l p thinking that the opposition in whin that Right Hon. Gentleman was now engaged was unworthy of him. The Noble Earl concluded by re s t .:ating the confidence he enter tained in the Noble M a ':.quess who had lately joined- the Government, and v2,,0, he was sere, would do and would countenance nc;dijog that he was not satisfied was for the good of Theof his country. earl of WINCHELSEA should say nothhig in an awe.;' to that part of the Noble Earl's speech which re garded hinwelf, but that the opportunity wou !soon occur which would afford him the means of assuring the Noble Earl that his principles were now exactly the same as before. The Earl of LONGFORD observed, that the Noble Earl who had just addressed them had spoken of the con duct of the Irish Catholics as moderate. The question of their moderation was not now properly before the House; hut as the subject had been alluded to, he must be permit ted to say, that he believed that Noble Earl to be much mistaken. He (the Earl of Longford) had lived in the country, and he could state that all he had observed of the conduct of the Irish Catholics was diametrically opposite to that tendency towards moderation which that Noble Earl bad so much admired. Upon the other point of that Noble Earl's speech, he begged to say that the description of belonging to a factious opposition did not attach to him. He certainly was in opposition; but he would not submit to the term factious as applied to himself. It had been said by some, that in no time of their lives had they ever before witnessed such an Opposition —to which he should answer in their own language, that in no time of his life had he witnessed such a Government.— (Hear, hear, hear !)—The opinions entertained of the Right Hon. Gent. at the head of the Administration were not the only opinions that influenced the conduct of those individnals who were opposed to his Majesty's Govern ment. He was perfectly astonished when he considered what were the component parts of that Government.. He really did believe that if a steam-engine of 100-horse power had been set upon the labour of forming a new Adminis tration, the success would have been just as great as at present, and the whole of the country—the long expecting and much d i sappointed country—would not have seen a Government composed of individuals who were now, for the first time, brought together, and who, though they had long been opposed to each other, yet, because that they were now united, thought that those who still maintained their former principles ought to stand forward and say they would give their support to the Government. Such an expectation was not just, nor would it be gratified till it was known what were the principles given up by each party, and what were those intended to be maintained and acted upon. It was with s espect to a Government so com posed, and not with regard to any individual of the Noble Lords who were found among its members, that his Noble Friend had, a few nights since, spoken of it as composed of rubbish—a term by which he meant to describe that it was farmed of ill-assorted materials, not connected with that cement which promised it stability and would insure it the confidence of the people. In such a building, he thought there was nothing more than would please the eyes, raised as it had been by the magic spell of one great magician, But could it be supposed, even by those who swore by that magic spell itself, that the building would hold together, standing as it did, without a good foundation ? Its founda tion seemed to him composed of two parts, which he might designate as ten shifting quicksands of political insta bility, attempted to be united with the mountain of revolutionary desolation—(Hear, and a laugh.)—The 'whole object of those who were now united was to assist Popish encroachment upon the confines of Pro testant toleration ; and that object was resisted by those who were now in opposition not from a wish to refuse freedom to their fellow-subjects, but to save the interests of their country. Those who, in the principles of their poli tical system, in their speeches, and in their votes, had al ways been oppo se d t o eac h ot h er, were now united; and because they had combined to form the present Govern ment, they required from Parliament full approbation for the past, and confidence for the future. That approba tion he could not concede ; and he must say, that he did not at this moment feel that he could afford them that con- • fidence. The Earl of DARNLEY, in explanation, said that his praise of the moderation of the Irish Catholics referred to their conduct during the recent change in the Government. In the present situation of affairs they submitted patiently to a delay in asserting those claims, which, in the long run, he was sure would be successful. Lord MELVILLE wished to occupy the attention of their Lordships for a few moments, while he referred to th e charge of a factious opposition which had been made against a Right Hon. Gentleman who had lately held the Seals of the office for the Home Department. He could assure the Noble Lord who had made that charge, that he was much misinformed upon that matter. That Right Hon. Gentleman, if he believed that the principles of the late Administration would entirely he lost sight of, was justified, as a supporter of those principles, in b e i ng f ound in opp os i t i on to t h e G overnment ; indeed, he would' be hound to oppose those who (if he might use use such an expression) should so disgrace themselves. He (Lord Mel ville) trusted that they would not disgrace themselves in that manner ; and Le could assure them, that while they conducted themselves on the principles by which that Ad ministration was regulated, none of their colleagues who had lately retired from office would be found in the ranks of the Opposition. Lord GODERICH said he was quite prepared to con firm the stater - I:Tit of the Noble Lord who had just resum ed his seat, as to the intentions of his Right Hon. Friend. He had no reason whatever to believe that his Right Hon. Friend would he found to form part of a factious opposi•. tion to the Government; and unless he disbelieved all which that Right Hon. Gentleman had said, he could not think that any such opposition was intended by him ; but if he found that those who had not declined still to form a part of the Councils of his Majesty, abandoned those prin ciples on which they bad so long acted, he would be justi fied in opposing tikvn, and not only they could not claim his confidence, but would deserve his reprobation; but while they adopted measures, in the principles of which that Right Hon. Gentleman and others had for years con curred, they were entitled to support. It was not when the Members of the present Administration were placed iu a difficult 'iula a critical situation, that such gentlemen should have thought they could reconcile it to their own honour and character to attack the Ministers in every pos sible way, and to suppose that no Ministers nor any men could act together for the honour of their Sovereign, and the good of their country, without at the same time being base enough to part with their own honour and character before they united for the purposes of the public service.— ( Hear. hear.) The Earl of MALMESBURY explained. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed, in ex planation, that when he remembered a Noble Lord, who was now on the other side of the House, had voted against the Administration on a grant proposed for the support of the splendour and dignity of the Crown, he must expect that Noble Lord would vote in the same way upon all similar questions; or if he did not, to what could that change of opinion be attributed but to a change of place? The Returns were then agreed to without a division. The Report of the Postage Duties Bill was brought up, and received, and the House then adjourned. The giv. OF COMMONS, MONDAY, MAY 14. four o'clock. took the Chair this day precisely at Mt. Alderman WOOD p , th e Report of the Committee on th e Thames Water Rates esn ..aeiet s was ordered to be taken into consideration on Wednesday text. Mr. I4UME presented a petition from. certain workmen of Glasgow, praying for a grant of money to enable them selves and families to emigrate to Canada.—Referred to the Committee of Einigiation. Mr. HUME presented a petition from a sect called the Freethinking Christians, praying the House to amend the Marriage Act, so as to render it no lon g er offensive to th e i r conscientious s cru pl es . Th e Hon. entleman said, that the petitioners wished not to be confounded with those persons called Freethinkers, and in his opinion it was a question of religious toleration that all sorts of Dissenters should be put on ex:equality. The relief for which the peti tioners asked could he granted in the simplest manner. All ,that was required was to insert the words, " and all other Dissenters," after the words Jews and Quakers in the Mar riage Act. The petitioners were willing to pay all mar riage fees, and he hoped the age was liberal enough to see the propriety of granting the relief for which they prayed. The Hon. Gentlemen also presented similar petitions from the Freethinking Christians resident in Sussex, Tewkes bury, &e.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BALFOUR presented a petition from the Royal Burghs of Scotland, in favour of the Salmon Fishery Bill. Lord NUGENT withdrew his motion en the mode of taking votes - at elections, and informed the House that he would bring the subject before the House in a more ex tensive form next session. Lois - 1 ALTHORP presented a petition frets Mr. Charl ton, the petitioning party in the Ludlow election petition, praying the House to give him the benefit of a technical error in the report of the tiection Committee. The Noble Lord said that he bad hot attended much to the proceedings of Committees on election petitions, but he was quite satis fied that unless something was done for the petitioner he wtsuld be very hardly used. Colonel WOOD said that there had been four objections to Lord Clive's return, none of which were considered valid, and if any technical error had taken place, he (Col. Wood) the less regretted it, because it could not do any substantial injustice to the party complaining. Mr. W. WYNN said that the petition complained of the decision which the Election Committee had made. Upon the motion for the House resolving itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Supplies, Mr. HUME rose to inquire whether care had been taken to preserve the droits of the Admiralty, in making out the Commission for the Duke of Clarence, as Lord High Admiral. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL assured the Hon. Mem ber that as much care had been taken in preserving the rights of the Crown on the present occasion, as on any oc casion within the last thirty years. Me. HUME again ruse. The subject on which he DOly obtruded himself on the House, was one of a 'very different nature from the last. He was one, the least inclined to in terfere with the just Prerogatives of the Crown, but there had, of late years, a practice arisen of creating great num bers of Peers. Now, if lie considered one thing of more importance than others, it was the proper maintenance of the station of that class of the community. The rank of that class had, however, of late, been brought into such a degree of disrespect, from the frequency of promotions to the Peerage, that he thought some check ought to be put in the way of the exercise of that Prerogative of the Crown. His reason for desiring this was, that there was nothing which required any Peer to have sufficient property to prevent him becoming a pensioner on the Crown.-- There were many instances of Peers, who, after being created, were deficient in property to maintain them in that station, which it was intended by the Con stitution they should hold; they were not, in short, able, as of old, to stand between the Crown and the people —they became dependent on the former. A large pro portion of these Peers, With offspring, would, upon exa mination, be found to be supported out of the public purse. He felt the whole delicacy of putting such a check upon the Crown, but he thought it would he well, if the House of Commons were, at no distant period, to address the Crown, begging that means might be adopted to prevent individuals from being created - Peers, who were too poor to support their rank. It would he well, also, if some law were to be passed, by which noblemen, who were no longer able to maintain their dignity, should be deprived of their titles and privileges.—(A titter which had been going through the House during the greater part of this speech, here burst into a loud laugh.) He bad, he would assure them, considered what he bad said. Let them look at the list of Peens, who, by their rank, were prevented earning their own livelihood, and -were obliged to come on the public purse, either indirectly as officers in the army, navy, &c. or more directly as pensioners of the Crown. — He did not know whether the House would go with him, but he certainly had no hesitation in giving his opinion, that some steps ought to he. taken to prevent Peers being created, who, when made, must become a burthen on the public. He felt strongly convinced of the necessity of something king done, and he had no doubt the subject would shortly force itself on their notice, if they did not take timely measures to prevent it. Mr. CANNING was utterly at a lose to conceive on what suspicion or rumour the Honourable Gen tleman had founded his remarks. The question of the prerogative of the Crown in the creation of Peers was of great importance, and if brought before the House, should he discussed with great gravity. At present there was nothing which would induce him to strip the Crown of one of its brightest prerogatives, and the Commons of their most splendid privilege.—(Hear, hear !) Mr. HUME assured the Right Hon. Gentleman that his remarks were founded solely on an observation of the pension list. Mr. CANNING—I am obliged to the Right Ho nourable Gentleman for telling me that, for I did think his remarks were founded on some of those wild and mis chievous reports which are circulated, as I well know, for the purpose of deluding the public mind—( Hear, hear)—but which I solemnly declare have no foundation in fact.— . (Great cheers.) The House resolved into a Committee. IMPRESSMENT OF SEAMEN. Sir F. BURDETT took that opportunity of saying that he meant, at the earliest possible time, to bring the subject of the Impressment of Seamen before the House, in order to devise some means of getting rid of the practice altogether. SUPPLY. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, for the purpose of considering the Miscellaneous Estimates. Mr. HERRIES moved that the sum of 17,250/. be granted to his Majesty to defray the Retired Allowances and Superannuation Pensions for Public Officers. Mr. HUME objected to these grants of pensions to pub lic officers after certain years of service; one of them, a pension to a person only 27 years of age, for seven years' service, was highly extravagant. No matter how small such sums might be, they were founded on a bad system, and he was convinced they would be obliged to repeal the Bill for granting pensions, which had been passed five years ago, and put public servants in the same situation as they were before. Such Bills as these had given occasion for the continuance of the five millions dead weight which pressed too heavily upon the public. He expected the Right Hon. Gentleman would now redeem some of the pledges given by:the Secretary of the Treasury and the Secretay of the Admiralty, in 1822, and adopt some means by which every person discharged from one department of Govern ment may be called upon to serve in another as soon as a ♦acancy occurs, instead of being pensioned off as at present, according to the date of his service. After some observa tions upon the great expence of pensioning off those persons who had been employed in the Auditors' and Examiners' Offiees, the Hon. Gentleman concluded by recommending the Chancellor of the Exchequer to allow the Committee on the State of the Finances a power of calling before them every person who had received a pension, in order to ascer tain how far their services can be rendered available in the different branches of the public service. The Resolution was then agreed to. Upon the next Resolution of 14,9701. to the use of those Milanese and Corsican Emigrauta Who have per formed services or sustained lodes in the rause of this country, Mr. HUME asked if any new names had been added to the list since last year ? Mr. HERRIES replied in the negative. 'f he grant was 1514. less. The Resolution was agreed to. Upon the Vote of 3,0001. to the National Vaccine Esta blishment, Sir JOSEPH YORKE said, that the Institution might be one of three things—good, bad, br indilerent. This institution he considered so very indifferent, that although the inventor had received 20,000/. as a reward, he thought that so far from doing any good, he had left the disease ite bad as ever. He stated the other night, that his own eon and daughter had both taken the small-pox severely, after being inoculate I according to the new system and he had stated at the same time, as one of the ivort of the evils, that persons, after being inoculated in tha manner, were not prepared to receive the contagion of thesmall-pox, and therefore riot treated with the degree of sconce necessary to their recovery. He wished to bring up ome of the ad mirers of the art, in order to have an expination of these matters ; for his part, he thought it was allmere humbug ; for even when the skin was stripped off, die beauty was not preserved.-:--(A laugh.) tOlOnel WOOD was sorry to hear a dscovery, which '•ad been productive of so much benefit tc mankind, cha ractei;sed as a failure. Some failures thee might have been, but were there not as many in the mall-pox itself ? He was aware of the strength of prejudice ,trkig the lower orders, and he therefore regretted the Hsi. Member's ob servations; for if they were to ge forth a the world, the poorer classes might see reason to be diinclined to avail themselves of what he considered a greatnational benefit. When it was considered, that the small-pa, upon calcula tion, infected at least one person, beside to person diseas ed, in every case, he thought they could not estimate too highly the advantages of the discovery. Mr. PEEL was sorry that the Gallant Admiral hail ap plied his powers of ridicule and sarcasn to this subject. It might he, that there were some cases of failure ; but he was convinced, that, if they were iivestigated, they would be foun - d of no importance whttever. It was probable, as perhaps it had keppenecl in the case of the Gallant Admiral, that some of these fatares arose from the ignorance of practitioners in the country, who did net know how to perform the operation. It was of the utmost importance that nothing vhich passed i❑ .that House should countenance the preudice which still existed in some parts of the country aginst vaccination ; and that it should be steadily and perseveringly circulated, that if vaccination did not absolutely prevent the occur rence of small-pox, it very considerablyabated the viru lence of small-pox whenever it did occur. Sir C. BURRELL expressed his firm ..onvii:eion, that if all medical men had acted upon principle on this sub ject, the small-pox would have been entirely eradicated long ago. Unfortunately, however, there were in the medical, as or other professions, sordid men, who, for their own purposes, maintained that whet' they knew to he erroneous. Mr. HUM observed, that the occasional failure of vac cination in securing the object for which it was practised was inevitable, and could by no means la considered as a reasonable objection to the practice. Hoy many instances were there of persons who, having been inoculated with small-pox, 'afterwards took that disorder in the natural way ? Much depended on the peculiar construction of in dividuals. It was not above seven weeks since he had been requested by a party of gentlemen, who had well con sidered the subject, to introduce a Bill into the House to prevent inoculation with small-pox altogether, unless the children on whom it was to be performed, were removed to some pest-house, whence the infection could not be com municated. He really wished that his Majesty's Govern ment would take this exceedingly important subject into their consideration. It was but recently that a person re siding in a court in the Strand, having a prepossession against vaccination, insisted on having her child inoculated with the small-pox. The consequence was, that fourteen children in the same court took the disorder naturally, and died.—(Hear, hear. )—The Quarantine Laws were passed to protect the country from the infection of the plague; but why not have laws to protect the country from a dis order which was fully as mischievous and infectious ? No person should be aflowed to inoculate a child with email pox, unless that child were previously removed from all communication with other human beings. He trusted the subject would meet with the most serious consideration of his Majesty's Government. Sir J. YORKE said, he understood that vaccination was a security for six or seven years, but not longer; and ad verted to persons who, having been vaccinated when one or two years old, took the small-pox when twenty yeara of age. The Resolution was then agreed to. On the Resolution being moved by Mr. HERRIES, to grant a sum not exceedin g 40001. in aid of the Refuge for the Destitute, Mr. HUME said, that he considered that the object for which this Institution had been established had failed ; and principally in consequence of the public grants which had been made to it, the consequence of which always was to deaden private bounty and exertion. Dr. LUSHINGTON maintained the utility of the Institu tion, and lamented that it could not be rendered more exten sively beneficial. In consequence of the public grant, the re commendations of the Judges, of Magistrates, &c. were at tended to ; which, of course, narrowed the power of the Institution in other channels. Every Wednesday, which was the day fixed for• admission, nineteen out of twenty of the applicants were unavoidably rejected ; and yet, at least ten out of the nineteen came completely within the rules and regulations of the Institution. But although the power of the Institution was much too limited, it did great good as far as it went. It was well known that crime had recently greatly increased in the Metropolis ; the eastern parts of which especially were in a deplora ble condition, and stood in the greatest need of correc tion and amendment. He was perfectly satisfied that such Institutions as that the grant to which was now under consideration would be highly beneficial to the country. Mr. PEEL admitted the benefits resulting from this In stitution; but approved of the reduction which had been made in the estimate from five to four• thousand pounds. He thought some reduction might be very advantageously made in the expence of the Institution ; especially as it re spected the masters, &c. The object of the Institution was unquestionably laudable, and its establishment had con ferred great benefit on society. Whether or• not similar In stitutions might be advantageously established by his Ma jesty's Government for the temporary reception of those who, having suffered imprisonment in consequence of the sentence of the law, were unable to obtain employment, it was for his Right Hon. Friend who had succeeded him in his official situation to consider. He must certainly concur with the Hon. Member for Aberdeen in saying that the ef fect of voting public money in aid of any Institution was inevitably to check private contributions to it. Some time ago he had been requested to propose a public grant in aid of a Penitentiary in the county of Surrey. But he had declined doing so, because he knew it would then be said by those who would otherwise have contributed to the In stitution, that there was a long purse to draw upon ; and that their private exertions were no longer necessary. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said he did not mean to deny that the object of this institution was a good one, but then the expence of it was extravagantly great, and it was at his motion that the grant of money was reduced.— He thought that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Dr. Lushington) was mistaken with respect to this institution, and that the observations which he had made might tend to Mislead the House. He denied that the objects of the charity were well chosen ; and as to the attending to the recommendations of magistrates, he could assure the House that while be was Chief Magistrate he had had an oppor tunity of making several suggestions as to persons whom he knew to be proper objects, and that those suggestions had not been attended to. But the expence was the prin cipal thing of which ho had to complain. The expenses of the institution amounted to more than 10,000/. per an nu►n, or, in other words, to between 601. and 701. a bead. Would it not be better• for the Government to have an in stitution of their own, which could be carried on at far less expense, and accommodate far mere persons ? He bad moved for the accounts of the society, and would call the attention of the House to one or• two items in them. In the year 1820 there was no less than 7901. charged for repairs, and more than 500/. for the different masters. In 1821 the repairs and alterations amounted to 9431. In 1822, the repairs amounted to 1,024/. In 1822, the repairs amounted to 1,164/. In 1824, the repairs again amounted to 1,2071. ; and in 1825 they amounted to 1,8351. The charges for the masters were as extrava gant as those for repairs ; and lie must contend, that no accounts could ever exhibit a more flagrant waste of public money than these did. During the whole of the time that he filled the office of chief magistrate he could only succeed in getting one individual into the institution, and it was under these circumstances young men came before him, who declared that they were tired, and that they re pented of the vicious course which they had been pursuing. One of them, who was ill, he sent to the hospital, and en deavoured to get the other into the Refuge for the Desti tute ; but the answer given was—that he was not quali fied. The consequence was, that this young man re lapsed into his former courses, and being detected, he (Mr. Alderman Waithman) received a letter from him begging him to intercede for him with the committee of the Refuge for the Destitute, 13 be was now, unhappily, qttahAed for admittance. He also sent a girl to them on one occasion, and they requested that he would write a letter to them recommending her. He saw very well what the drift of this proceeding was : it was for the purpose of making a display at their annual dinner by petting down "one, two, or three, received on the recommendation of the Lord Mayor. This girl they kept for a few nights, and then turned her out again ; and when he remonstrated, _he was told, first, that she was not so bad as the others, and that they had no means of making a distinction in the places in which they Mee kept. This objection got over, they raised another, which was, that she was "not penitent enough: so that, in point of fact, she was too good for them, and yet not good enough. He begged to be distinctly understood as meaning to throw no imputation on the ho nourablp characters connected with the institution : he be lieved that the business was principally transacted by secre taries, and that they knew nothing about the matter. He should not press the matter now; but his impression was, that the grant ought to be cut down to half its pre sent amount. Mr. HUME said, that it was not only to the amount that he objected, but to the principle of voting public money in such cases. For the future lie should oppose the grant. Mr. BERNAL said, that although this was a private charity, it ought to be recollected that it had a great public object in view, and had, therefore, superior claims to the attention of the House. Mr. WARBURTON said, that the principle upon which all institutions of this nature ought to be founded, was the probability of permanent employment afterwards. This was not the case in this institution ; and on that ground, therefore, rather than on account of the expense, he should oppose the grant for the future. He hoped that Govern ment would pause before they took the fatal step of holding out temptation to crime, by affording a certain place of re fuge to characters of the very worst description. Mr. PALLIER (Surrey) objected to the mode of har bouring criminals in the Refuge for the Destitute, who were afterwards discharged without character, or a single resource, and generally returned to their former habits of vice and crime, until at last they were sent out of the coun try altogether, at an enormous expense. After a few words from Mr. CHRISTOPHER SMITH, the vote was carried. The suns of 5,2001. was then proposed and agreed to for the relief of American loyalists for the year 1827. The vote of 3,4221. was also agreed to, to defray the ex pense of confining and maintaining criminal lunatics for the year 1827. On the vote of 5,912/. for paying the usual allowances to Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England, poor French Protestant refugee clergy, poor French Protestant refugee laity, and sundry small and other allowances to the poor of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, Mr. HUME objected to the vote, because he considered it unnecessary to continue the allowance to the French clergy and laity, who might now return without hindrance to their own country, and had no right to remain a burden on this. Mr. /TERRIES defended the grant, and said, that the fund was under the immediate control of nine persons of different religious persuasions, who were totally uninflu enced by personal motives in its distribution. The Hon. Gentleman then read the names of the nine persons by whom the grant was applied, and concluded by assuring the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume), that every care should be taken that the persons on the list for relief should die as speedily as possible.—(A laugh.)—The Hon. Member should recollect that the present vote was 2001. less than last year. Sir C. FORBES said a few words in support of the 1 1 grant. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS spoke in favour of the Scotch Dissenters : after which the vote was agreed to. On the next resolution, that the sum of 53,0001., clear of fees anti deductions, be voted for his Majesty's foreign and other secret services for the year 1827, Mr. HUME objected to the continuance of this vote, now that we had no connexion with the Holy Alliance, and were in fact at peace with Europe. He appealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Canning) to put an end to such war.ton and unnecessary expenditure of the public money. Mr. CANNING denied that the sum now proposed was disposed of in the way to which the Hon. Member had re ferred. 10,0001. of the sum mentioned went to his Ma jesty's Treasury ; and he assured the Hon. Gentleman that no one was more anxious than he was to reduce, as far as reduction was advisable, every vote which was pro posed. The Hon. Gentleman would see, ,by comparing the present with the vote of last year, that a reduction of 5,0001. had been made.—(Hear.) The resolution was then, agreed to, as was also the vote of 80,000/., to, defray the expence of printing Acts of Par liament, bills, reports, and other papers for the two Houses of Parliament for the year 1827. On the resolution that the sum of 7,5001. he granted to defray the expence for printing under the direction of the Commissioners of Public Records, for the year 1827, Mr. HUME wished to know whether the public records, for the publication of which a commission bad been issued some years since, were in a state of forwardness ? Mr. WYNN was not aware whether the Hon. Gentle man directed his inquiry to the English histories, the re cords of which were in progress, or to the other records, which were also in a state of forwardness. According to the last report from that very able and efficient person, Mr. Lemon, of the State Paper Office, five folio volumes of the English histories would very shortly be ready for the press. The Hon. Member should take into consideration the very great difficulty that attended compilations of this description —Th e Resolution was then agreed to. The sum of 95,9901. were then voted as the probable expense of providing stationery, printing, and binding, for the several public departments of Government for the year 1827, including the Stationery office. On the resolution being proposed, to grant the sum of 5 0,0001. to defray the extras rdinary expenses of the Mint in the gold coinage for 1927, Mr. HUME wished to know why this vote was so much larger than last year ? Mr. HERRIES said, that last year the sum proposed for this estimate was only 31,000/. and the actual expense was 42,000/. It was necessary to make good the deficiency, by carrying it over to the proposed sum. The resolution was then agreed to. The sum of 20,3431. was then proposed on account of the loss and expences in the recoinage of the Irish silver to kens, and the Irish copper coin, for the year 1827. Mr. HUME wished to know if the Irish bank tokens were as yet called in ? Mr. HERRIES replied in the affirmative ; and the re solution was agreed to. The vote of 5,0001. to defray the extraordinary expences that may be incurred for prosecutions, &0., relating to the coin of this kingdom, for the year 1827, was also agreed to. The sum of 19,628/. was then proposed, and agreed to, to defray the extraordinary expenses in the department of the Lord Chamberlain of his Majesty's househobl, for fittings and furniture to the two Houses of Parliament; and also, the sum of 12,0001., to defray the expense of law charges for 1827. On resolution that the sum of 112,7461. h e grante d to defray ' y ta th r eexpenee attending the confining, maintaining, and employing convicts at home and at Bermuda, for the year 1827, Air. I-11.1 - AIE wished to know the number of convicts at home, and also the number at Bermuda. Mr. HERMES said that the convicts amounted to 3,400, and the number of prisoners confined at home was 8,500. The latter were supported at the rate of 6d. per diem, excepting 100, who cost the country about la. each. Mr. Secretary BOURNE said, that the convicts were sent to their destination at the charge of about 5/. per head. The resolution was agreed to. The sum of 30,0001. v was then proposed, to pay bills drawn from abroad by his Majesty's governors and others for the expenses incurred for the abolition of the slave trade, and in conformity to the orders in council of the 16th of March, 1808, and the 11th of July, 1817, for the support, &c., of captured negroes, free American settlers, &c., for the year 1827. Mr. BERNAL, in allusion to the colony of Sierra Leone, said, that the most gross mismanagement and want of common sense had been displayed in the conducting the affairs of that colony. He conceived that the Hoc 3 was bonnd not to agree to this vote as long as the report respect ing the affairs of Sierra Leone was delayed to be acted upon. A great many valuable suggestions were, he was assured, contained in that report, and much valuable infor mation on the affairs of the colony might he gathered from a variety of pamphlets that were published on the subject. It was disgraceful to see the wanton and extravagant waste of money in supporting a colony, the climate of which was so destructive to Europeans. When he looked hack a few years, and saw what a dreadful havoc death had maths in that colony, he was really astonished to think that Govern ment should call year after year for enormous sums of money to maintain it. So destructive was the climate, that it was actually an act of suicide for any man voluntarily to proceed to Sierra Leone. Was it not a fact that the offi cers were daily falling victims to that pernicious plan, dropping off like branches of a tree ? A gallant officer (General Turner) had lately fallen a victim to the climate, and a portion of his family was also affected by it. The African corps stationed there were all dying of disease, in consequence of the pernicious habit of drinking new rum, aided by the dreadful clipate, The liou, Gentleman cvu• eluded by observing, that the House and the Country should no longer be humbugged, he begged pardon for using such a vulgar word,—but he hoped the House would pause before it passed the vote which was now before it. Mr. WILMOT HORTON deprecated the mode by which the Hon. Gentleman had thought fit to oppose the pre sent resolution. The House must be aware, and the Hon. Gent. himself should know, that the present vote must be passed, otherwise the affairs of the colony of Sierra Leone could not go on. That there might be difficulties in the management of that colony, he did not mean to deny, but he conceived that a discussion such as the Hon. Gentleman had commenced was not the most effectual way to end them. With respect to the Gallant Officer who was now no more, no man could regret his loss more than he (Mr. Horton); at the same time it could not be de nied that the Gallant Individual himself had often spoken of the colony in favourable terms. It was not altogether fair to forestall a discussion relative to the affairs of this colony, and he hoped the Honourable Gentle man would see the propriety of waiting until the sub ject should come fairly before the House, when the report of the state of the colony should be laid upon the table, which he hoped would he at no very distant period. Mr. HUME hoped that the House would not wait for the report, which had already been too long delayed. It was no time, he conceived, to talk of delay, while such a lamentable loss of life was daily occurring. Mr. CANNING could assure the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume), that, whatever might be the result of the inquiry which Government had instituted with respect to this colony, no means should be left untried to better its con dition, and to act upon whatever hints for improvement the report might suggest. On the resolution that the sum of 18,0001. be voted to pay the salaries and incidental expenses of the Commis missioners appointed on the part of his Majesty, under the treaties with Spain, Portugal, and the Netherlands, for preventing the illegal traffic in slaves, Mr. HUME objected to this grant, and said it was time that it should be discontinued. - The Right Hon. Gentle man had ample opportunity of putting a timely check to votes of this description; and the country expected that he would do so. Mr. CANNING could assure the Hon. Gentleman that no man could wish for retrenchment more than himself.— The Hon. Gentleman must, however, be aware that this vote was sanctioned by an Act of Parliament, and the Go vernment had no other opinion than to ask the House for the amount of the estimate. After a few words from Mr. HUME, the motion was agreed to. On the next resolution, that a sum not exceeding 50,0001. be granted for the expenses of missions and spe cial commissions to the New States of America, in the year 1627, Mr. HUME paid, that this was a very enormous sum; the whole of the expense of our diplomatic missions this year (including the proposed grant) would amount to 491,0001., which was too much in the present state of the country. Some reduction he thought ought to he made. Mr. CANNING said, that the vote before the Com- mittee was 10,000/. less than the sum voted last year.— Hon. Members might think the sums granted for missions to South America very great, hut he could assure them, that in most cases the sums paid fell considerably sl_tort of the actual and unavoidable expence of the individuals en gaged in this service. He held in his hand extracts from representations made, not by one but by not less than a dozen of those so employed, and they all agreed in com plaining that the_ sums allowed were much too sinall for the expenses incident to their station. One gentleman re quested that he might be allowed to lay down his office before he was ruined by the expenses which it entailed on hint ever and above the salary allowed. Another said that it was a mistake to suppose that the necessaries of life were cheap in South America, and described them as much dearer than in London. A third complained that he was obliged to pay 500/. a-year for a house, that he was obliged to have eight servants, whereas three would be sufficient for a similar establishment in London, and that he was obliged to pay three times as much to a servant there as he should have to pay here. _Others complained of extrava gant charges in other respects, much beyond what they could have expected in Europe. Now, if a representation of this kind was made by only one individual, he might have thought it was exaggerated ; but it was made by so many, that the idea of exaggeration was wholly out of the question. He had felt it his duty to make enquiries on the subject, and the" result confirmed him in the opinion that no exaggeration had been made. He could refer to the papers in his hand, and show several other instances in which complaints had been made sireilar to those to which he had already adverted. One gentleman complain ed that his salary was not sufficient to support, decently, a clerk in his office. Another complained that his income was so scanty that he should be much in debt at the end of the year, unless it was increased, and begged to be allow ed to retire before he became too much involved. Now, it could not be desired that gentlemen who filled those im- portant situations should be obliged to return to their native country ruined in constitution and in fortune. It was, therefore, necessary that such an allowance should be given as would prevent them from loss. Mr. BERNAL observed, that when it was first proposed to send out missions to the new American States, he had suggested that the Consuls should not be allowed to engage in mercantile pursuits, as such a course would not become the dignity of their stations. It was, lie would therefore admit, necessary that such a liberal allowance should be made to them as would prevent the necessity of resorting to com mercial transactions. No man, he knew, would willingly embark for that distant country in those situations without some prospect of advantage; and though 1,500/. or 1,000/. a-year might appear large sums, they were not too great for the extra expenses to which persons in such situations were liable. At the same time he would suggest, that such appointments might be filled with a description of persons who were well qualified for the office, but who would not expect on their arrival abroad to be put into pos session of rich principalities, with splendid mansions, and the means of giving rich entertainments. Mr. HUME again objected to the whole amount of those charges, as being too great for the present state of the country. If some men did not choose to fill those situa- tions at 2,0001. a-year, others he knew might be found who would do the business equally well for 1,0001. a-year. In this instance, we might take example from the Un►ted States of North America, whose consuls and diplomatic agents performed the business of their country at an expense extremely small compared with what was paid by this country. He did not wish to point out particular redue_ tions, but he thought that in the present state of the Country the whole might be reduced to one half. The motion was then agreed to. The next resolution was, that a sum not exceeding 100,8701 be granted for salaries and retired allowances to Consuls in the present year. Mr. HUME perceived that some gentlemen had received retired allowances after a few years' service. He thought that no man ought to be put on the superannuated list who was still able to hold his office. _ _ Mr. CANNING said, the case to which the Hon. Mem ber adverted were those of individuals whose offices had either been abolished or reduced. Where the office was abolished, a regular provision was made by Act of Parlia ment. In one case to which he had adverted, the indivi dual had the offer of the retired allowance, or of continuing to do the business at half the former salary. The motion was then agreed to. The next motion was, that a, sum not exceeding 1 20,0001. be granted to meet bills drawn or to be drawn this year from New South Wales. Mr. HUME did not see why so large a sum should be voted until the particular object to-which it was to be ap plied was known. He had heard that there was a great demand for the labour of convicts the moment they were sent out, and he did not see how so large a sum could be necessary for Government. Mr. W. HORTON admitted that many of the convicts were taken by the settlers, but that it had been found ne cessary to have penal settlements for the reformation of a particular class of convicts. The expence of this would be considerable for the present, but as the colony continued to prosper it would be gradually reduced. He should have no objection to lay on the table the particulars to which this sum was to be devoted as soon as they could he ob tained. He begged leave to state that this sum was for the expence of convicts alone, and not for the civil go vernment. _ _ After a few words from Mr. Hurts, the motion was agreed to. The next resolution was for 20,480/. for the expenses of emigration front the United Kingdom to Canada during this year. Mr. HUME thought that the awn already laid oat had gone much beyond what was intended. He did not see the necessity of the expense of 10,0001. for surveying the country. Mr. W. HORTON said, that the Hon. Member had al ways been opposed to emigration, and to every thing that had been done connected with it. He differed from him, however, on the subject, and the country would hereafter find the advantage of the course which was now being pur sued. The increase of expense had not arisen from an un der estimate in the beg'nning, but from the circumstance of a greater number of persons being sent wit than was at first contemplated. He could state, that the persons who had gone out were going on in a most prosperous manner, which would appear from the accounts which, in the course of some time, be would lay on the table. The eV . pense of the survey was absolutely necessary. After a few words from Mr. Hums, Mr. CAESSET Pelf HAM, and Mr. W. Homo N, the motion was agreed to• The next resolution was, that a sum not exceeding 50,0001. be granted to indemnify the proprietors of slave. in the United States of America, under a convention re' =Cy agreed to between the two countries. Mr. CANNING said, that Hon. Members were alo ft of the nature of the claim made by the American airier 67 ment on this country for the value of slaves taken by 115 during the war. The subject had been left to the arbitra tion of the Emperor of Russia. Two millions of dolls° had been at first demanded ; that was thought too Ilit eb ' ' and it had been reduced two-fifths, s o th a t 1,200,000 , • ,lars were taken for the whole. It was considered bett er that this sum should be given than to continue the expel ° of the commission of adjustment between the two Stateo.l, Two hundred thousand dollars had b e en alr ea dy voted, a nd this was the last vote. Mr, HUME wished to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman could lay upon the table the names of the Per i l claiming indemnity, and the number and class of the slav e• for which they claimed it. Mr. CANNING thought that after the whole matter had been settled, the publication of such a list could aess ver no good purpose. Mr. HUAIE repeated his request. He thought it jai' portant that the particular amount of each claim shoe be known. Mr. CANNING said, that as a compromise had been made between the two States, by-which each party ba d given up something, it would be difficult to get at the particular value of the slaves. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the question was now b e° tween the individual claimants and their own Governmen t ' to whom the sum had been paid in f u ll s a tisf a ction for a ll the claims. The motion was then agreed to. The next resolution was, that a sum not exceeding 3,040/. be granted for defraying the civil establishments w, the Bahama Islands.—Agreed to. The next resolution was, that 10,6451. be granted f or the civil establishments of Nova Scotia. 11r. HUME objected to this country being called upe to pay the civil establishments of those Colonies. thought they ought to defray these expeuces themselves. Mr. W. HORTON said, it was not so easy a matter to get the colonists to consent to that. Mr. HUME (across the table).—Then stop the supPY' Mr. W. MORTON said, it was a very easy matter for ' Hon. Members to get up in that House and say, s top th.l supplies, but if th e w h o l e sa l ar i es o f th e officers of the ei vl establishment were stopped, the business of the colony could not go o n. Th ey must cons id er t h e i r co l on ies, they were worth keeping at all, as being worthy 01 : r the t support and . protection of the mother country. !Vex year an opportunity would be a ff or d e d f or cons id er i n g the - subjects more its detail. It would then be proper that 4 1 House should be made acquainted with the revenue exT resources of Nova Scotia, &c., and th e manner i n which they had been applied. This, he conceived, would be $ much better mode of proceeding, than that of melting sweeping reductions without proper inquiry. He a d " mitted, that if the thing were practicable, the expen se should fall on the colonies ; but the question ought to b i e maturely considered before such a step was taken; I" therefore, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would suffer the present motion to pass. Colonel DAVIES observed, that the expense incurred on account of the colonies involved a question of the 11 1 1 important nature. He had, some years ago, stated, tha t when the Cape of Good Hope was in the hands of the Dutch, General Daendels Made that colony support itse lf • He maintained a garrison of 3,000 men, and had besid es money in the treasury. He should be glad to know whir the same thing could not be done now. The fact 'we t that there appeared to be a sort of fatality connected wi th the government of the British colonies. They were alwaY" a burden to the mother country. Mr. W. HORTON denied that the statement of the Gallant Officer was correct. He admitted that the Bios tion of the colonial establishments ought to be properly in vestigated ; the functions' of the persons in power there ought to be considered ; and, in proportion to the insper t. ance of these functions, their remuneration ought to be sP c i portioned. With that view it was that commissioners ba been sent out to the Cape. If gentlemen did not wait for the labours of those commissioners, they could not arriv e a t any satisfactory conclusion. Mr. HUME said, it was the duty of Government, at t he present moment, to save every single - shilling that *el practicable; and therefore Ministers ought to state to ea colony their decided determination to expend no more 1 0- ney for such purposes as these after the present year... After a few words froro Sir C. Foams, the motion was agreed to. The sum of 5,100/. was voted for defraying the charge . of the civil and military establishments at New Brunswick, for the current year; 4,0001. for the civil and indite*: establishments of Bermuda; and 2,820/. for the civil On military establishments of Prince Edward's Island. j og the A vote of 12,461/. was next proposed for defray civil and military establishments of Newfoundland. Mr. HUME wished to know, whether, since an altera tion had been made in the situation of this colony, any the g et count had been rendered of the produce arising from tsale'of land, and of its application ? f Mr. W. HORTON answered, that under the Act Parliament, such produce was carried over to the Cens e ''' . dated Fund. Mr. HUME said, the proper course would be, to have .& debtor and creditor account, and if, aft e r th e ex p en ses of Government were paid, there happened to be any surPle_ A e ' such surplus should be laid out on the c o l on y, an d n ot add!' to the Consolidated Fund. The motion was agreed to. The sum of 13,874/. 2s. Bd. was voted to defray ° l f Civil and Military Establishments at Si erra L eone ; 310 lie. Bd. for the Civil and Military E s t a blieh men ts ' on the Gold Cost; and 2,4421. 10s. to defray certain colonial elc pensee formerly charged on the Army Extraordinsries. • The next vote was the 16,1821. to defray the expense the Propagation of the Gospel in certain colonies. Mr. HUME objected to this item on the ground that, in some instances, that of Canada for instance, the 101: reserved ought t o p ro d u ce sufficient to meet the clergrne e - charge. Mr. W. HORTON stated, that the land reserved vis e insufficient for the purpose. It was not all of the most c t e : !Liable quality, and the want of population prevented t"; . progress of cultivation. If it were desirable to keep 0 P church establishment in the country that had been allude to, then he was sure that, if gentlemen would look to the details, they would find that the object could not be effect ed for lees than the sum proposed. to Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said, with referenc e d the Canada Company, that lands had been sold, and off ere d for sale, at 361. p e r share. He should like to know re„_u e the Company paid to the Government. Either the Li vernment had made money by this transaction, or g r o; delusion had been practised on the public, to wheal t land had been represented as of the best description. l i e n Mr. W. HORTON said, that the shares in que St r i . e were connected with the very best class of land ; bu t ; d mere quality of the soil was not the only thing to be le to. In a country where there was even an indefinite ( 11 0 tity of fertile l a nd, but no population, the value land could not be great. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said, it was strange that at one moment this land should be describe d as worth 0- thing, and the next, that it should be extolled for i ts fer;..,:, tin t), with this addition, that it was useless, on accou rit .. ! . the want of population. Now , if there were no pop l t tion, what necessity did there exist for a clerical esta blish' ment ?—(Hear.)—He thought it would be better if G O ' vernment itself took into its hands those plans of emigr e ; tion, instead of intrusting them to companies. Quest f ie f,i could then be asked in that House, and information Ing" be obtained, which, as the system was now carried e e? could not be arrived at. Mr. HUME observed, that the Hon. Member for Tau nt ' ton had on a former occ as ion stated, that in the eele ej o i assembly of Upper Canada, there were only two person. the Protestant persuasion, and yet a stnn of 3,7001. `lt peered to be charged for the support of that chureln was monstrous to call for such grants to support the C 1 74 of England in a place where that church did not, in , exist. In the whole United States of Americas, the ol d vernment did not pay 100/,' for a church establishment,i.,o yet he believed there was as much religion there as e in Upper or Lower Canada. Lord BINNING was anxious that due instruction ob°"nitir be provided for Canada by England ; because, in default - such, he understood that teachers were in the hab it 01 re: sorting to that country from the United States ; and WL' it ever might be the nature of the religious doctrine Welt those persons imparted to their pupils, it was not very that politically they would point out to them the usceesill of any particular allegiance to their lawful Goverolnen (Near, bear.) Mr. WILMOT HORTON denied that Milliliter!) e Wr . b e provided for any tract of country, the populati on of Wh' waA on s not such as to demand their assistanee. weer' cversation then took place at some length bet r , 11Ir. H. Drummond, Sir C. Forbes, Mr. Warburton, 0.._ Estcourt, Lord Sandon Mr. Hume, Mr. W. H orton, e Scrope Morland, Lord Milton, and Sir C. Wetherell, itt which the vote was carried. Atte On the next vote of 56,000 1 . for I n proving the IV