The Sun. — London, England, 1842-06-22 00:00:00

he law nfro:- I ose wt. m 3uld convioa )w of any .reland, the p as of im sed popula-, 'tat also was 41 witnesses . . uth, or had Al been said job. W as land ? T sup Pose" ,ed only saY tolument a he sbota state of JO gird reading j . because he wished tir see the sygtem of taxatien *Patel in the two Countries; and he was creivineed that whilst Izeland was non.inaely exempted from the ope.ae ion of the t ix, the would, in fact, contribute to it in the same proportion as • England or Scotland, at t; e tame time that new but tisne were imoesed on her in the inc-essed stamp and spirit duties. Earl Friday h ti: t rA w,ul N ) H d OPE said if be had been in th e H ou s e l as t have given his vote again s t th e B e l. H e ! ll°l- ' , "t it would p rove high y detrimentai to the agricultural Interest, anti especially when taltee in connexion with the tariff. a measure to which he would give his most strenuous oppo • siticin when it came belirre their Lordships. It was said the tariff would so far diminish the cost of living as to enable the People to pay the Income-tax more easily. He had seen to much and heard so much that lie would never more be sur- PIIe eieed at anything which he should hear or see.—( - A laugh.) grantee that there had been a great feline. off in the re- Ite nne. But what else .conld be expected when they had the scherw.s of rash and speculating financier' to deal with. There vras the idle scheme at Mr. Howland Hill, which cost the s c ountry a revenue of 1,000.00 / a y ear .— ( H ear . hoe-, and a 4 'oo lie agreed with those who thought that the best course was t o re-impoo. same of those taxes which had been pealed, and had not given so much relief as had been iintici • peed. He was not in the habit of intruding h s advice on Chencelle rs .of the Eechequer, for lie was sure that it would 11, 4 be fAlowed, :f indeed it would be very graciously re eeived.--(llear, hear, and a laugh.) But he would recom- Tenli a w e ll •regu l seed house -tax, exempting the houses the poor and m iddl e c l asses . Al so an i ncrease ef the taxes. on servants and h ors e s , exempting those persons t h e kept only one h orse and one servant. Fur although the Neble Marquis (Clatirigard•.) might nail him a Chartist, he ti ! o uld always recommend that taxation should commence at t h e highest possible roint in the scale, exempting as much a, possible the wee king and middle classes. He thought a re trnlios lion of the Post-office tax in part. say 2,1. per letter, Irsetild produce no inconvenience, and would raise a consider . !sole revenue. He wouid also recommend an increased tax upon .e,lench wines, which would be paid only by the wealthiest elesses. He deprecated this (the Income) tax most of all, on runt 0 fits inquisitorial c h aracter; an d h e would a.k, was _ th state ot the country so satistaetory that it was es Si' ta do any plir4,' which w ou ld ten d to alienate the affections ef the middle • ei es !es? But it h a d b een sa id t h at taxat i on h a d r , ac h e d i ts ta e'llte. How could that be when some years ago the amount s 0 much greater ? I n hie opinion the reason was, that when " _teeatiun was hi g h , t h e country hail the advantage of a cur " -- en' which e na bl e d i t to sustain a h eavy taxat i on. B ut that enld never be the case again, as tang as Peel's Bill was in ex _ st : h t l e t n cee a Bill which the first breath of war would blow to P i eces. He agreed with the late Sir R. Peel, who tele' his sun the bill cculd not be carried into effect without ruireng its country. lie could acquit sic in the Income-tax, with all i t s o bjecti'mg, if he could believe, as was said, that ,taxed the r i c h atid spared the poor. But it was, .T h 'ect, ae tax which drew from the poor through the rich. dit tba would ceimpsl every prudent man to curtail his expen uree and to make a budget. for himself, to meet that of the han , ceder o f t h e Exchequer.—( A laugh.) What would be r`e• :feet o f such a diminution of expenditure of the rich, but e wer ased suffering to the poor, whose distress was already such Tu. call for the most serious cortoderation of Government • hear. ) I t was aw f u l to ant i c i pate w h at m i g h t b e t h e es s sr t inenees of that di s t ress , an d th ere was no grea t er o bj ect i on -e(e eo s , e Proposed tax than that it was calculated to inerea, it.— ACar, hear.) The Income-tax it was admitted, on all sides, k ,td be rererred for a time of war ; but it was said that we l e 1:171:A tous ent 4 . t war in Chi na a nd Aff g h an i s t a n. Now he cont e nded th fte uniustifi.ible wars having een undertaken without Parliament, Parl amen b t could not be called on to gr" l7 e vi d defor the expenses.—( Hear, and a laugh. ) It f ore i g ners, ;te . Sr escape th e t ax , were t o wi thdraw from our ' furies Ip, tttock which they held in them, anti which amounted to be s e -yu A )O /-, he 'c a ll e d upon th e House to conseter what would easee,offeets upon th e currenc y o f th e coun t r y.—( H ear , h ear .) iete Lord concluded by giving his hearty support to the ton Of the Nr lONq opposite. Lord BEA UM j a raid, that although he had given a • d o :_ l tfle against th e amen d ment o f t h e Noble M arqu i s (Lane ' b 2 7 ,), on Frid a y last, becatue he disapproved of some of the 11;070..itions of the Noble Marquis's resolution. still he could % et re an unqualified support to the measure of the Govern that ;not becaus e he thought an Income-tax inadmissible, or u to the deficiency which was painted out hy the scribblers of ( ontinent as the gangrene which Was eating into ea"...:• strength of England, did not. exist ; he ebjected to it be ' 1- ee Z tio , tt Was a,ceompanied with measures which he believ e d t o ` s elefi ete The late Government sought to make up for the cili a ° eY by means of the Customs, and to raise revenue they loesseC u ei t'd profection. But the tariff of the present Govern lkieed`u3ndoned protection, a principle to which they were ' • • hose s l 4 they a l s o a b an d one d th e revenue t o b e o b ta i ne d s,_ - which Customs, so that they increased the very difficulties :lb they a ll ege d as t h e excuse for the imposition of the. 'tote e°l l l est ax•—( Hear hear.) They had admitted to one set of * l 4: a elialets that th e t ar iff wou ld yi e ld no revenue , f ur no catt l e theof s would h e i m p or t e d ; w hil s t t o th ose w h o complain d el et , "come- tax they said—" Y o u w .ll b e a bl e to pay it, be teq Y" 1 1 will get proiisions cheaper."—( Hee-, aud laugh vid, lie contended that the termer paying one half ef his epi c °r t! s e tax, as well as that which was directly levied on him ttherunid actually pay a greater proportion of the tax than any e .lasti of the commueity ; whilst his condition would be k erk rit s wlely det er i orate d b y t h e operat i on o f t h e tat iff upon the to t , e ' fee his p ro d uce . Wh ere did t h ey expect to obtain a pranee Pensat i on for those evils of the tariff? Did they expect that would take th e i r linen? Did they think that Mr. Clay weeeld relax his tariff? Or did they look to the East, where they utterly powerless ?—(Hear, hear) everytm —fro the Court~bis of 'o at el l Russian agency excludedeverything that was 'else Russi an . — (Hear, hear.) How did thee expect, then, to a. • revenue from Customs which would eiialle them to te eup this tax at the end of three years. They could not ' u nt lnish th e ex p en dit ure . Th e y coo not red uce th e army 'S ee " 1417 3'; and they would be compeleed either to continue the sa. or to find a substitute far it. Wh a t wou ld t h e country el'', too, when the three years should h ave e l a p se d, f or which r iod this country was asked to enact this tax? He thought A le Government was bound to say what they would d o th en . e w leeld they ask th e m to renew it, or would they come forward annher budget? Had they show n an ythi ng w hi c h 'e se , -911 4 induce the country t,, hope that thi s t ax , or ot h ers, Old then b e remov ed On th e cnntrare, they had not C e wn th a t one . Commissioner weuld be done. away with, that ;4 11 4 o.ss-rates rutwold be reuced, or that there was the l' l t..Vrobability of this tax being removed. All t;;xes nu t ..tee,,eLnmre or leNs by those who 'Aid them, but the differ -I,WiteZt,sleeen those taxes and the become-tax was, that th e y " . Ites. e ;," their exp e nditure. A man m i g ht s p en d hi s money ll.l t i tt eehor s e s , and dogs ; if he did that, to what extent he k: 1 1 ! able "( Mid have to pay, and the tax would th us b e con ztti not 8 6 that a very niggardly man, though a very r i c h one , ;Jett Pay those bars at all if he esch ewe d th e eerrere:," which they were levied. But it was w id e ly tt h . *i th the Income-tax. The Noble Earl said that thi s diet required for the purpose of prosecuting wars in Aff oid ei n t itid China. He objected to that ueon principle. When raised to defend our country's shores from a foreign 4 e tt:tet w i l tnen he would say that every man should pay for the .ecte vo lt carrying on of such a war ; but compare that with ▪ Asi a, '° l s% unjust, unconstitutional war, now carrying on b%el s e ' a nd the widest difference must manifest itself between ias e tn i . t be Most careless observer. Instead of these wars oiat,ioe neeeded with, they should in his tat ) n. (Lord Beaumont's) ▪ , is for ever blotted out trom the stage of British his. tt? Noble Marquis had left out his remark' about the 9's speech might have had some little effect ; as it • eeoll-ord Beaumont) should net vote for the amendment ble m Marqui s , b u t mu s t giv e hi s voic e i n f avour o f the t Ifso is; eq he t`tife rITZ GERALD thought that the w hole cf the argu %ra th Noble tord who had just sat down were so many ,11ivitsat he thought there was a necessity for this tax. The . I pirll. o l : (. leesed for arse sears, that the Government might nPeertunity revising the whole of their arrange !hv ord had told them that he protested against tilt in which the country was now engaged. If the pre -14 oes o l e rn,_ ment were reeponsible for the embarrassments in (eeirdi s tne country was placed by those wars, then the Noble Hea r, ?nservattons 'would - have been a little more pertinent.— taaithti he Hoeever magniloquent the Noble Lard - teje, t ee in denotninatine those wars as unholy and he (Lord Fitzgerald) thought that the Govern tely vit3 present preiceedings in India and Cl.ina, was ta Tatiti g the honour of the country when it was called A ny n f ( , () w•—(Hear.) He did not share in the de•pon ts•telese- t he Noble Lord, with r,gard to thv United States of Or e d 4 ' when he said that there was no prospect of any im oltteeZnenercial arrangements with that coin - dry. He (Lord !ti le N d) did hope that the good sense, and the n federation e4 ., 11 114.„ °6l e Lord, who was h floured with a inis-ion to that ‘4,` • 4, a n d ' woitt e , a that the good sense and moderation of the two A git% I,_Weeuld lead to a more cheering prospect than, that in etei 1 7, Nolz,e Lord indulged. He thought the Noble . Lord te o ,l,e been more cautious in advancing those npiumn!. Zltild. b :ght Co that the immense districts of Central Ada wbs tiow to lunch improved, and that beneficial results would to at this country in consequence. He now turned with t hat eren e , to the speech of his currency,n Without 174 it g: a threiugh the mazes of he must say tilß 1 ts heard from him no argument against this tax, except . in ke n s 4 0 inquisitorial tax. That was a strong objection; sZthe i -4 ,,1Qr tO it, he need do no more than to point to the h f t4,„,"" the Noble Lords, who had always answered that t hteh ''ttred to the speech of the Noble Marquis, who had 1/ 0 , 14 t the ~ s o be so n otion before the House that night. he ansoer r t , - Nt. nd in the want of revenue. If the Noble Lord • t a t t aY that h e wou ld ra i se a d e fi c i ency o f f rom two mil i we.tote„,n Millions and a h a lf annua lly by re -i nieos i ng t h e ne increas'ng the assessed taxes, he (Lord Fits q%, ( Would leave it. to the country to accept of that propo. the proposition of her Majesty's Government. His 1 1 .F.ted•Z s d saw no obj ec ti ons t o th ose t axes . H a d i t never :16„Le•tai his Noble Friend, that the evasion of the R O ss ePtliht easily be made, by shutting up the Pan 're t cs Noble Friend he knew would not do it. He (Wl* ee." enlarge his le use for the express purpose of e !, I tcreae e d hter ) His Noble Friend, elde • eri n i• • wasg . e„, est e , ja C lanricarde), the forem . ost the other evening IV him th di, euss the principles of this Bill. It was stated • Il e a (1.0 alait the d n had only been on the details. tit tteth ' 4 .01 4 qr'ald) must say, that he thought the .dis.cus ite,e flip nt,ght w ere very much directed to the pi nu:4.les S e e& of, per he speech ol the Noble one` iscount, late et the he' e Pr" la iest's Ministr was directed exclusively vt • Kl e e; of the Bill. The Noble Visieunt said that 0" th e t withmuchand ot ax had met too opposition; he st..elne et l'ered to say that if he were at the head of the Go , A i : 'end b e u .e would not carry out the Bill, or perhaps extend etto; d N ulsle (Nfleisntd Fitzgerald) heard it remarked, that until the ili a count came to his last sentence, he said not one h m tinti se. ta„endment of the Noble Marquis which was before heen o r ite Noble Friend (Clanricarde), however, if he kai l nigi st n t b s i to discuss the . principles of the Bill on rr l•r : 1 had atnple revenge to-night.—(Laughter.) ne' q e af the ud havnig replied to the Noble Vi-count's e s tabl i t. t.,:pes nwiple Cr evening, said he was not opposed to the Ott 'lf the tax provided the necessity were es slue e conteheeel, that the necessity had not been thp; v n.6 res and 'barged the Government with having created t I?ord.,tb-Y as (Lord Fitzgerald) would ask fearlessly of oee `Pee as VII t would ask of any man in that country eik°tlint,ttv s outed to direct his attention to the affairs of s f e it i e f er i this was not a new subject—whether the f tlaji st ,.; l . I s .' s " of this country had been exaggerated tlit_trihatzthus:titx,:.ty_e.a.):stkiilovern en t ; and if they had, whether they had e Present Government ?—( Hear.) During a . su rn of ten millions sterling had been added F aci e e was 'net dabs ' and • ties not e , _that (luring a time of peace ; and e. /1 _ eeettency of two and a h a lf m ill ions to be oße di t T;,7 t u. l ( l ,_ llek them did h e exaggerate the elfficul n(thi . ' 444 not st a e could not exaggerate them. His Noble 1 1 14 4.t s li a ti sltiiitted ( 4; 1,; i11 "'"` he proposed to make up the amount rto other a't 1444,r,,,st,.aovut7ionfgithhei late ate.: N' li s e) :* No other financial propositions .litiistry had been proposed, and he had ertiative than that tio.v befdre the House. ;; ..i . 3, t it was to th e c untr the Government did t h a t b w , 45 "e Wll.lOl would be -wee Aide to tee , o pe e ' IA as a 'as presentee, upon t 4"'"ltv. " "ewhiell ‘.. ' P h ground of eree..,eosal of th little remarkable., however, that on the teote of t h e e '' ineesure it not only did not meet. with the Niideert.ai Press:, of the Noble Lords opposite, or of tlits' l ,* had b e but that MTh! L • and their N itat en wend e ort s cisposit were at successive times amongst ,i;;;:ee tt l' S lyt t r.,, b:e h e r d s x, ,, ° ,:h:6 l : o ll: :: r i i no n t.., : d p ,, i ff es of an Income-tax. He found .z..iy.,l!nel that for a week Lord Alihorp,. of Mr. Poulett rtii7lisd m of ea th st e i i r r e s, did Lo n r o d t Co me n e et t le u to it n i; kettillilttheaw , e, ution ior e ft th at . .e oirspi.go:e_ntbse of the Ministry, and as they opponen.s had themselves argued in its favour, had a would not say to complain— beisis i ret jr.,lect, at the manner in which the ques nOlgt Lords its that Lime. —(Hear, hear.) This country alone was not the oily one whose finan 'es were in a sate of embarres-meat. The fir ances of India were in a very bad state. He d , d rot mean to mention that as the reason f r imposing the in• come-tax; but he did say, Hest the finance= of a large country like Julia must be conseiered in making their arrangements. In 183si there was a net surplus of 1,566,000/. in Indian finanees; there now appeare without taking into account ant 1 sum ter the pt eent great expen-es, a deficiency of two millions` and a h.lf. Was it to be said, then, that he had exaggerated the difficulttes of the country ? an he was to charge usem others any administrat on of the revenues which thee at the time did not feel justified in adhering to, he ellled upon them, sine he called upon that lieu e, to look at the state of the country when the present Ministry accepted office.—( Hear. ) He viii not accuse the Noble Lord, late at the head of the Post office, for the deficiencies which had arisen inconsequence of the change in the Post-office charges. lie did not. But let them look at the deficiency caused by that and the previous deficiency, and toy wou!if find a sum made up very nearly equal to the whole psesent defirrieney. The whole of the net revenue dr. rived trchn the Post •ollice, previeus to the alterations in the charges, was very nearly 1.700,0001. There appeared to be at present a re venue of 4141,0001. from the Post-effice; but that was not the case—there was no revenue at all from that esta- Inishment.—( Hear, hear ) Nor did he say that there ought to be any. But when his Noble Friend brought forward his penny postage, it was upon the express understanding thatthe Government should make up any deficiencies which would arise ire consequence. Worild his Noble Friend new oppose them for endeavoering to make up the deficiency caused by his own measure ? ( Cheers.) He thought in juvice lie could not do ste—(Cheers.) He agreed with the Noble Earl opposite. that it would have been imps ssihle to attempt to make up fur the deficiency by raising the postage to its former rate. It would be impossible to do so in the present state of the trade of this country. The .Noble Marquis who moved this amendment said, that when this tax came into operation it would create discontent and opposition in every class of the community. He doubted that. Ile saw no expression of opinion cheer amongst the people out of &ems, or in their petitions to Parliament, which would lead him to expect that indignation of millions, which was anticipated by the Noble Marquis. There had been presented to the other House only 130 petitions, to which 9,000 signatures were attached, when every facility had been offered to ti.e presen tation of petitions by relaxing the rule of the othr r House, that petitions could not be received against a tax under the eon ieeretion of the House. He would say nothing of the manner in which petitions were generally got up, ter it. could net he ssid that any large portion of persons po , sessing incomes ab tve 150/. a y ear, lad been so touch negle, ted in their educa tion that they could be led to sign petitions of the objects of which they were ignorant.—(Hear, hear.) Nut id the 13D petitions, thirty were from attorneys, and these were not against the principle of the Btll, but against parts of it.— ( ;fear, hear. 1 He did not undervalue or extenua,e the incon veniences and disadvantages of the BtR, in its unequal pressure on England. But he believed that the ',cope of this country were reconciled to the Bill by their knowledge of the exi gencies of the country, and their desire to keep up the credit of England, and to k ep faith with the public creditor. (Hear, hear.) They were prepared by these feelings to bear with the inconvinience; and they knew that there was no tax which could be imposed a iihout pressing unequally. The question of the sugar and coffee duties belonged rather to the debate of the other night; but he would sat, in rely to the remarks on teat subject imelvertently introduced into this debate, that he did not apprehend that the proposed measures would et-term rage the slave trade. With respect to the exemption of Ire land from the Income-tax, that gave satisfaction to the whole coutory ; at the same time that the taxes now imposed on Ire land would produce a contribution in the finances nearly equal to what could be derived from the imposition of the Income-tax in that country. The Act of Union prevented Parliament from loitering any tax upon commodities higher than those levied in England. and the ugly means of raising in that country her fair shire of the burdens, was by having resource to those taxes which had already been borne by her. He would not trespass longer on the patience of the House, and, thanking their Lord ships for the indulgence with which they had heard him, he would not delay therefore the vote which he did not doubt would he the approbation of the House by a large majority to the measure of the Governn ent.—( A laugh.) 'I hey had made 'heir pro, osition with the belief and confidence, which had not been distppointed, thet it would be received with approbation by ehe country A eneraliy —that it would he affirmed by a large majority rtf the other House of Parliament, aad that a measure justified by necessity. and characterised by one of the opponents of the Government, as an hone-t and hold measure, would be approved of by their Lordships.—( Hear, hear. ) He believed that their Lordships would not be if cted by the appeal welch had been made to them on the part of the great body of the landowners of the country, but that they would he prepared to make these sacrifices which their ances tors had made—he admitted in times of greater difficulty— ( Hear and laughter).--and that they would confirm the propo sition to which the other House, the representatives of the people, had given their concurrence.—(Hear.) Lord eIONTEAGLE apologised for intrueing himself open their Lordships on this occasion, arid he would not do so if it were rot for the appeal that had been made to him in respect to the pledge which he had required from the Huuse of Com mons, in yielding to the proposition for the reduction of the postage. But on that occasion he eledged himself to call upon the House of Commons to accede to some proposition which he might find it necessary to submit, if a deficiency were occa sioned by that reduction—not to agree to any propositem which any ether person might think proper to propose.—( Hear, hear.) The very same proposition which came from the Government now, had been over and over again pressed upon him when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he had invariably refused to propose the revival of that impost.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend opposite had cited the increase of the packet service as connected with the penny- post, with which, in truth, it had no more to do than with the war in Affghanistan. The increase of the expenditure in that department was occasioned by the necessity, that was obvious, ! of not leaving so important a branch of communication entirely in the hands of the United States. His Noble Friend congra tulated himself upon the complacency with which this country had received the proposition. Wait - until the operation of the tax came to be felt.—(Hear, hear ) His Noble Friend would not long be able to refer, as be did to-night, to the small num ber L . !' petitions against the tax.—(Cheers.) It was to he recollec ed, that never before was there held out so large an in ducement—he would say so large a bribe—to a great portion of the people not to petition against the tax.— ! (Cheers.) To look at the funds alone, it would be seen • that out of 280,000 dividend warrants there were but 13,00(1 for amounts above 1501. a• year. - That was a fair proportion of the incemes of other kinds throughout the country. He would not refer the House to the Reports of the Committee of Finance, at the head which was his late friend Lord Congleton, for those were not authorities which would have much weight with their Lordships on the other aide of the House. But he would refer the m to the opinions of cohere, for whom they would Late more respect. In 1802, Lord Sittlnouth. immediately upon the cessation of the war, came down to the House and said that nothing could justify the maintenance of an Income tax ter one hour in time of peace.—( Hear, hear.) In 1815 Lord Ashburton, then the greatest merchant in Britain. de clared he had rather he exsmined before a bunch of Bishops in Westminster-hall, upon a question of theology, than before a board of Tax-Commissioners as tothe state of his books. The Noble Lord had then quitted from a speech of Lord Althorp in 1833, in which thst Noble Lord denounced, in strong terms, the impoliey and injustice of an Income-tax, except in a ease of extreme necessity ; and above all declared that notwith standing the great difficulty of applying tech a tax to Ireland, he could not allow that the difficulty should prevent the exten sion of the tax in that country if it became necessary to impose it at all. In the year 'lB4O, the Hight lion. Gentleman now at the head of the Government said that it would be unjus tifiable to have recourse to a Property-tax to supply so small a deficiency as t 1,500,0001.—( Cheers.) That was the opinion of the First Lord of he Treasury in 18-to.—(Cheera ) With respect to the causes of deficiency, he must admit that Noble Lends opposite had dealt with that met of the question libe rally and candidly.—( Hear, hear.) hit there was orie fal.aey in their statements. They said that the deficiency they had to provide for was 111,000,0001. It was no such thing ; they had only to provide for the deficiency of the year. The former de ficiencies were provided for in ways which he would presently show. He had no apprehension of the present financial state of the country, if the internal state of the country were what what ousht to be. He bessught them not to let it go forth to the world that they were obliged to have recourse to direct taxation because all other resources were exhausted. Then was no ieclaratirin which would afford so much jot to the enemies of England. Could they hope to get credit * for such an assertion ? It was unsupported by reason and fact. He might be tiring their Lordships, but what he was about to state was for the purpose of supporting the credit of the country, and therefore he trusted they would bear with him. The deficiency. was net attributable to any falling tiff in income ; the income had sustained itself, Lut there had been a great increase in the expenditure. '1 he) had to provide a sum, which would more that) account for the deficiency, to provide for the twenty millions paid for slave emancipation ; they bad beeides augmented the expenditure by changing permanent into ter minable annuities, an operation attended with great expense, but which would ultimately produce a large and permanent diminution.—( Hear.) It was the safest species of a sinking fund. But for these two causes, instead of a deficiency, there would have been a surplus. The slave lon was a permanent charge, but the terminable annuities const tuted a diminishing charge; and it would be found thst up to the year litebts, they would constitute a large and an annually increasing financial harvest.—( Hear, hear.) Their Lordships were aware that the depo-its in the Savings Banks were required to be invested, or the Government had the power of converting them into stock. That speculation was a perfectly unobjectionable one, and could lead to no bad consequences, although .a great deal had been attempted to be made of it.—( Hear, hear.) The deficiency of ten millions was a mere bubble, which did very well to make use of in debate, but which could not stand the test of argument. The financial condition was not so bad as it was pretended to lie, and the Income-tax was far from being so well adapted to supply as the Government would fain have it todieved. It introduced a different law of taxation for the holders of large farms and the hinders of small ones. He, however, rather rejoiced at these anomalies than other. wise, because they afforded him a better hope of getting rid of the measure. If faults, it absurdities of every sort and de seriptiiin could ensure the getting rid of a measure, this mea tire would not be tolerated by the country. In case of war, when the enemy were at our gates, or, which was better still, and which was the mode of warfare to which the Noble Duke was used, in cases where we had to carry war to the gates of the enemy, a tax of this nature might be submitted to. It was a confiscation I. all intents and purposes, but which under such circumstances must be submitted to. A great portion of the community was professedly exempt from the tax, and that tax it would be attempted to make the basis of the taxation of the country. It was a dangerous notion to hold out to the country, that the mlions could be relieved by taxing the tees. and would be repeated to them at a time when they would feel the inconvenience of it. To raise mil lions they , must tax the miliions—such were the words of an ultra-popular demagogue, and they were true. There eoutt be no doubt as to the comparative safety of an indirect tax, and a direct tax. Tne tax might at first be popular, but its unpopularity would soon begin, and the public credit and the revenue would both puffer in consequence. The operation of the tax on the morals of the country would be most disastrous; it would Le a bounty to the man sell.) was fraudulent, and a line upon the man who was honest. On land and houses under the old property tax, one of the collectors had calculated the eva sion at ooe•seveoth of the amount of the whole property. On the funded pro; eriy, the evasions amounted to from one-fourth to one-fifth; and on profits anti professions, the evasion was more; arid such would ever be the case until . the Trea-ury could invent some process to Daguerreotype a man's income. They wet° about, as a means of upholding public credit, to do that which would tend to undermine private credit and private fa th more than any measure that hail ever been introduced. In the days of the former income tax they had a depreciated currency and a war expenditure. They had now the opposite sic of the wedge to duet with ; the pres sure was growing gra ater and greater, the means of resitteig it less and less, and this was the time they cho e to impose this tax. It had been said that a person could not go abrosd to es cape the tax, but suppose he took his propel ty with him what would they do thi n ?—(Hear, hear.) The experiment had never before been tried in time of peace. Money could net be invested then in foreign securities, *tor could the manufacturer then take his capital abroad. Did they imagine that the Not tingham stocking weaver would remain to pay his three per cent ? No such thing, be would take his capital abroad, end the income tax was. in fact, a bounty upon the emigration of capitalists. But even assuming that an income tax was the right remedy for the deficiency, he thought he could gems that titre Eroposed mew) r( 1 wimiti 5a in producing the effect of remedying that deficiency. If after having called or Hercules to their wheel out of the mire, Hercules should fail—if after haring imposed their income-tax the mea sure should fail to make good the deficiency, it would be la mentable indeed. There was the export coal duty—nothing would be realized from that. From the returns he was autho rised in statirg that no increased reve..ue would accrue from the propesed inctease of duties in Ireland, and he felt assured that they would have, not a surplus, but a deficiency upon the budget as originally proposed. A house tax and an increase in the asiessed tax would have met the deficiency. That would have been unpopular, and for popularity the Govern ment had chosen rightly, but not fur the pet manent interest of the country. For the country the volunteer budget of the Noble Earl at the table (Earl Stanhope) would nave been infinitely preferable to the budget of the Government. Ore main c,ittse of our difficulties, was the monetary difficulties of America ; and these difficulties would not have been telt, if we had see altered our laws as to enable the Americans to pay usin the only articles in which they could pay—their corn and their agricultural produce. Another cause of the dcfi. iency was, the decreased powerof consumption of exciseableartides among the people at. home. Within the last f.ur years, they had had to pay twenty millions more for corn than they had had to pay for the preceding three years. The result of this was, that they had less to lay out in exciseable articles, and that was the real source, he verily believed, of the present distress. He thought the Income-tax one ise and unjust, and therefore he oppo,ed institutions. Nothing could be permanent or safe under a rotten system ; and while there could be no nobler object of ambition than the leadership of a free people, founded upon its intelligence and its public virtue, nothing was more pre carious or more fleeting than that power which was based upon the demoralization, and the continuance of which was de;endent upon the employment, of corruption. And as the best remedy that his humble 'judgment could sugeest, as the only remedy which he believed applicable to the present case, he called upon them, while there was yet time, to renounce the power which was the origin of the abuse, and throw themselves henceforward upon their public merit and public services for their standing in public opinion, and to put an end to all those odious party combitiations, to that hypocrisy, to that fraud, of which open voting was the prolific source in this country, by giving their assent to the motion which he was about to place in the hands of the speaker, namely, Tkat in all future elections for Members of Pai Lament, the votes should be taken by Ballot. Jr. BERKELEY said, he rose to second the resolution. After the best consideration, he had come to the conclusion that all those evils which Hon. Member had predicted, as likely to occur, in the event of the Ballot becoming the law of the land, were to be found, in a tenfold degree, wider the present system of open voting. He had ob served, in the debates on the subject, it had been said that the practice of the Ballot was unmanly and un- English. lie thought this was not well Said, by persons who used the ballot-box themselves. But, then, it was contended that the ballot-box at clubs, and the ballot -box for constituencies, were not analogous. He would ask 500 Members of that House, all of vs hum used it, if they did not use the ballot to protect them selves rim any obnoxious character, which was admirably de scribed by Sheridan, in the character of Sir Lucius O'Trigeer? ‘Vell, if there were Sir Lucius ("Triggers in society, were there not Sir Lucius O'Triggers in politics infinitely more ob noxious? Ile came next to the tenantry of great estates. They had there a high•pres- urn engine of their own to drive the screw, in the shape of the landlords, who, it was notorious, in spected the voting books as they did the crops, and were more stringent in the ease of the vote than of the rent. If the tenant was backward with his me, they ejected him ; if backward ith his rent, they distrained him. Those tenantry were sent t o t h e poll, with about the same ceremony as they themselves drove their beasts to the next market; and the difference be tween the quadruped and the biped was this, that the former was driven to the market, and thence to the knife, and the latter was driven to the polling booths, which were a species of moral shambles, where they lost their freedom of action and independence, and consequently where their self esteem was ruthlessly sacrificed. And yet they talked of their free and in Aependent electors. Those were the yeomen so much boasted of en all occasions. The fear afterall was that unjust influence would be lost. That was true enough, but just influence would never be lost by adopting a right and honourable _gout se. He had been entrusted with several petitions on the subject, which he looked upon as a brief. Now with regard to the hi dory that took place in 1837, the only evidence he had to offer on that subject was, that 5,0001. was spent by the Tory party, and 2.5u0/. or. the part of the Liberal. Now on the part of the Liberal tarty he would say he believed that not one farthing had been spent in bribery, but he could not say so much of the other party. In the election of 1841, much the same practices existed. He held in his hand a placard, dated ,tray 29, 1841, signed by Sir. Flipp, declining an invitation to stand for the borough, and stating that in the election of 1837 5,0e0/. was spent by the Conservative candidates. On the walls, tee, it was openly posted, " Vote blue ! Money nu object l."— ( (lean) lie had with him a blue book, which was the Tery pi 11-book for the election, which vas distributed at all the hotels as the guieie-bcok to tradesmen.—(Hear, hear.) He would also call their attention to the canvassing books of the agents, which had their annotations on the margin, and these were afterwards published. 7he screw was not left to agents, but these were psis ate directions for its use. The land lord's name was printed, then the landlord's residence, and next the persons having any influence with the occupies. He hart a few words to say with respect to his own canvass. In the year 1t37, various parties had expressed a desire to support bin., but were evidently coerced from Noting with him at the poll. On the first day of the canvass, he entered the shop of a small tradesman, who congratulated him on his appearance as a candidate, in what he called "the old cause. '• He (Mr. Barclay) then told the friend who accompanied him to put doe n the man's name for a plumper. The voter said he could net give him his support; he burst into tears, and said that he riot only could not vote for him, but that he should vote agaidst him. He (Mr. Berkeley) was assures! by the gentleman wh o accompanied him, that if he pressed him he might obtain his suppoit, but that if he succeeded he and his family would be ruined for ever. Now that was, as it appeared to him, a case which could excite no other feelings than indignation arid regret. One more case and he would conclude. There was a man who reported to him that he had always been compelled, not only to vote but actually to register. AVhen his Right Hon. Fries(' stood fur Bristol he felt that lie would be compelled to vote against him, although he was anxious to vote for him. To avoid voting ha neglected to register ; but when the time for registeting again came round he was told that if he did not re gister it would be visited upon him in the same way as if he hail voted for the Liberals, his landlord being determined that all who rent- d under him should vote with him. This man The Earl of RIPON said that the question resolved it self into this—Was there, or was there not, a case of finan cial necessity, calling for the impositio❑ of an Income-tax ? 'l he Government admitted that the tax was objectionable, but they contended that there was an invincible necessity for it. If they were to re-impose the house-tax and the assessed taxes, he telt convinced that they would not get an amount sufficient to meet the deficiency, assuming even that the re impo•_ition of the tax would not diminish the employment of horses, servants, and carriages. The Noble Lord who had spoken last disputed the necessity, and seemed to think that if they let things alone all would come right in time. He did not dispute that if the detieiciency were made good the revenue would ultimately regain its elasticity ; but in the meantime the deficiency must be made good, and how to make it good was the question. His Noble Friend, in dealing with the question of necessity, took no notice of the great increase within the last seven years of that portion o f our expenditure in those services over which Parliament exercised a control, viz , the naval and military service. The increase of the expenditure in these services during the last six years was as much as three-and-a-half millions sterling He (Earl Ripon) had always thought it was necessary to revise the whole system of fiscal regulations to extend and open the sprirgs of commeree, and though they might affect to des ise the tariff, ci.uld assure them that people out of that House telt very differently on the subject, • and were well convinced that it was an excellent measure in its j principle and its details The .Noble Marquis had stated that the Income-tax was the most unpopular one which could be proposed ; if ihat were the case, the Government had shown their sincerity in proposing a measure which was unpopuhir, but which at the same time they thought was the best which could be devised.— ( Question, question.) The question was t hen put front the Woolsack, when strangers were ordered to withdraw.. The House divided, and there appeared,— • For the Amendment Against it Majority against the Amendment The Bill was then read a third time and passed Their Lordshi i s adjourned at Twelve o'Clock till to- morrow (this day) at Four o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 21. TM: BALLOT. Mr. WARD On continuation from our Third Edi tion of last night) said---That out of the returns for Englnuit, Ireland, and . ;cotland, no less than fifty-five were impeached by petition, those fifty-five petitions allecting no less than seventy-eight seats. Every gentleman in that House knew erfectly N o vell that a great many cases of N% hole:411e corruptio n escaped notice altovater, as there n ere not sufficiently clear parties in the different places to petition for an inquiry. Its he said, there were fifty-five peti tions against seventy-eight seats. They must not forget that in minty of the Committees there were special Re ports. Now what did those sp Tial Reports say ? The Southampton Ceintuittee, said James Bruce, Esq., com monly called Lord Bruce, and C. Martin, Esq., were by their agents guilty of bribery at the election for the borough of Southaniptine From the evidence it appeared that gross treating and bribery had existed ; that the sum expended was 3,000 L, far exceeding the legal charges, and deserved the consideration of that House. He found in the case of Ipswich that Rigby Wilson, Esq., and George Rennie, Esq., were by their agents guilty of bribery at the last election for the borough of Ipswich ; the Committee also resolved unani mously that they should recommend to the House to su-punch the issuing of a new writ until the evidence should have been taken into consideration by the House. In Sudhary he found that it was unanimously resolved that gross and systematic bribery had existed, and the Committee recommended the disfranchisement of the borough. In Lyme Regis he found another instance of gross bribery. From the evidence it appeared that corrupt practices had some time prevailed. hi- found that in Newcastle-under-Lyme, J. Q. Harris, Esq., was guilty of bribery by t.is agents, and that a system prevailed of giving to voters bread money s dinner money, and market-money. The withdrawal of a petition was no evidence of the innocence of the parties, as had appeared from the Committees on the Harwich, Nottingham, and other elections. To such an extent was the system of compulsion carried, that the withdrawal of e petition was synonymous with a confession of guilt. He could point out many cases which had escaped the notice of the Hon. Member for Bath. It was said that the same practice occurred last Parliament with re spect to Norwich, whets there was one gentleman of each party elected, but that, was no extenuation of the offence, however it might warrant inquiry. hese were the evils they had to grapple with at the present moment, and unless they were checked, they would progress with frightful rapidity. His belief was that they must go back to first principles if they wishefl to have any principle at all. The first principles in voting were that the voter should be a free agent. The State was bound to secure the voter the power of record ing his own unbiassed vote—by that he meant unbiassed by the nation, or corrupt influence. He did rot believe that was to be eccompllshed by open voting. lie affirmed that by the present system of voting there never could be a lair and five electron, as one party was coerced and the other bribed. This was only one vortical of the evil, and it was useless to app y a remedy to one and leave the other untouched. The lion. Member for Pomfret, who appeared to have an amiable leaning towards corruption in its mildest form, conies forward and boasts that he is the friend of the poor man. He stood up as the poor man's friend, at d argues that though it might be possible to put a step to this species of corruption, yet, he adds, with a great deal of truth, they would have another kind— namely, p. litical con uption, in full action. He argued that if a million of money has: been sent down from the upper among the lower classes at the last election, it must at feast have con- Jerre(' a great deal of material happiness, and that, if any enact ment took it away it must cause proportionate misery. The Legislature night reduce the amount t xpended, but would not check corruption. He could not but regret that the lion. Alem her had lent . such sentiments the sanction of his talents. He remembered an election tor the West Riding of Yorkshire, when the canvass was carried on with the greatest activity. The Duke of Leeds hal.pened to die just as the canvass was beginning; of course decency requited a certain time before the canvass could be resumed; nobody could venture to sup pose what the opinions et the present Duke should Le, anti his tt nants remained uncauvassed. During the contest he (Mr. W.) was walking with a friend of his in Sheffield, when they met a Yorkshire yeoman. The gentleman who was with him (Mr. W.) asked the yea man if they had yet got their orders, and the countryman replied that they had received orders to be yellows. lhat was to vote for Lords Alorpteh and Milton. uch was the state el subserviency of the English voter. He recollected another case that had occurred at the same time in Wigtoeshire, in Scotland. Parties were known to be equally belenecd, and for upwards if three weeks Lord Stair was made the object of the bitterest attacks by all the Conservative papers for having purchased an estate on which resi led thirty voters, whose votes would turn the scale. L. rd Stair had happened to be negotiating the purchase of the estate for some time pre viously, and it was then brought to a term:natien. A remark able letter was written by a weal proprietor of the county, and read at the hustings, and it was stated then by Air. Murray that the coercion of the Tory gentry went beyond anything which had been known in England. He challenged an answer to his statement, an ino person dared to contradict him. The letter was addressed to his Hon. Friend, the Member or Cockermouth, and it spoke of the system of intimidation and coercion as being worse than what was practised with regard to the slaves on the coast of Africa. He (Mr. Ward) d.d not mean to say this system was practised by Lord Stair in that contest e but he would say that discussions of that description in the face of the people of England were disgraceful. He did not mean to say that such things were confined to the counties; on the contrary, he believed that immorality of a worse descrip tion took place in the towns, which were more.confined, and where the circumstances of each voter were well known, and where exclusive dealing and published lists of voters—published even at the Universities—were put into eperation to ruin the refractory voters. The Report of the Intimidation Committee teemed with facts of this description ; and was it not disgraceful that while they saw inquiries instituted to investigate them, they knew that five or six persons on each side of the HOUSe held the strings of the machine of cot ruption, and put all the works in motion ? He thought the Ballot, and n•thing less. would put an end to bribery and the other corrupt practices which had taken rlace. With regard to other remedies, bad habits would get the better of the best law, but when the law failed, if the Ballot were adopted, that remedy would step in with its silent efficacy to correct the abuse which the law could not reach. Make the voter aware that the Ballot was his safe guard, and the whole mischief of corruption would be ended, because the puhlieation of the vote was the indispensible ecnditiun of either punishment or reward. They would not runish the voter upon suspicion. They would not inflict a penalty on him li sup pe knew he , ion that might he be m had not et fulfilled hits Hwith ld histhe usual sophisms, that to give a vote contrary to the promise which was made of it was immoral, dishonest, and un- English. Rut, on the other hand, it could not be morality to vote against one's cete.cience, or be brew-beaten to vote in a certain way.—( Hear, hear.) He knew it was not fashionable to . say that the Ballot would insure secrecy. It might not do eo, but this he was certain of, that it would put a atop to intimidation, and would give a more healthy ap pearance to public opinion, and would make canvassing an honourable understanding between man and man, and not a compound of cajolery and trickery.—(Hear.) The argument that the Ballot wote'd destroy the legitimate in fluence of property was as unfounded as any of the others. He believed that not a particle of the legitimate influence of pro perty would be destroyed by secret voting, but then that in fluence must be applied in a different manner. The whole subject had been done so much justice tee by Mr. Bailey, that he would read an extract—the last he should read to the House. He stated that the tegher classes had become so accustomed to tl.e exercise of power over the rest of the community, that they now looked te on it as a natural and even a salutary power. New. no man who knew the long list which the English aristocracy had added to the names of our most emieent statesmen and orators, would say that there were not brilliant exceptions to Mr. Bailey's description? But if the effect of the Ballot, as Mr. Bailey believed, would be to compel the aristocracy of this country, as a class, to forego th se adventitious ad. antages which they now possessed, and to throw themselves, as the Right Hon. Baronet said the other right that he threw himself, upon the reason and intelligence of the cammunity for support, who would deny teat that was ,‘ a censun.matiot: devoutedly to be wished?"—( Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who wished to shut out wealth and. rank in this country from their legitimate share of influence. He thought with Mr. Mills, that the business of government, under a representative system, was, in effect, the business of the rich. But then he wanted to see the rich maintain their influence by fair means—by means which would raise their character as well as that of the community, instead of de basing and degrading.both. A change in the present system was inevitable. It was impossible to exaggerate its evils or its dangers. If it were continued for a few years more, he be lieved that it would waste and destroy in this country all that onstitutes the strrneh of, and ail that gives vitality to, poplar actually went so far as to take physic to disable him from voting—(Laughter)—but when the time for polling ar rived, the Tory doctor (feeling his pulse) told him he was in good health and compelled him to vote —( Hear, hear.) He hoped his Hon. Friend would join with him in endeavour ing to put down these parties by voting for the Ballot. Captain LAYARD said that at the last election for Devonport, there was a feeling in the borough that the Liberal party would not succeed on account of a dis agreement amongst themselves, and the two parties agreed to decide the question between them by Ballot. The brother-in law of the !tight Hon. Baronet and Mr. Leech, walked arm in-arm to the place, and they voted by Ballot. No man could say there would be more intimidation and corruption if the system of the Ballot were in operation. If the Noble Lord c..uld do away with corruption he could not do away with in timidation. He (Captain Layard) should therefore heartily support the motion. Mr. CHRISTIE was surprised that the Members on the opposite side had not risen to explain the votes they intended to give on this subjeet.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped he might be Cs cused for rising on the same side, fur in doing so he would have to pay a penalty by encountering difficulties, in conse quence of rising after the able speeches just addressed to the 1 - louse. It might not be altogether unprofitable to attempt to clench the able recital of the existing evils which the House heard from the Hon. Member for Bristol. He would confine himself to one or two points of the question. First of all, he would ask the House what they proposed to do by the Ballot, and how they expected it to do what they proposed by it. With regard to what they proposed by the Ballot, it was the hope of its advocates that it would diminish the existing evils, not that it would entirely do away with, but only diminish them, and this to a great extent. It wes a favourite argument of those who opposed the Ballot that it would net put an end to bribery and intimidation, and that various ways would be found to punish the voter for giving a particular vote, or, at all events, that he could be bribed to go out of the way. But, granting this, it only proved that bribery and intimidation would be !flitch more difficult, else why resort to such clumsy expedients ? 'I lie diminution of those evils being the object of the Ballot, how was that object to be obtained? Now, suppose a person to have voted in a particular manner, and to be brit): d so to do, the person who bi ibed would not be able to tell but his money was thrown away, and in that state of uncertainty would he be likely to give a bribe ? He asserted that the Ballot would prevent the evils of intimidation and bribery that at present existed. Such being the case, be thought the Ballot ought to be established. The esent system lowered public feeling, and demoralised even the higher classes themselves. Instead of giving bread to the staring thousands of the people, it should be their first duty to put a stop to the fast-spreading pestilence which was de oying the truth, honour, and manliness of the lower orders of the country. The Income-tax arid the tariff ought Lot to have been made the cause of postponing the considera tion of a moral question.—( Hear, hear.) If those measures were less exceptionable, and snore likely to do good, than they were, still these promises of material prosperity might be fulfilled, for a people from whom all the internal ele ments of greatness had departed, and to whom this prosperity would only be so much gilt and tinsel to hide the filth and rot tenn , ss within. Ir. VERNON HARCOURT opposed the motion. If the Ballot was adopted the landlords would keep a strict watch over their tenants for the purpose of ascertaining their political ten dencies, and the Jesuit would bit a constant series of hypocrisy no the one side, and of jealousy and suspicion on the other. He believed that those who clamoured most loudly for the Ballot were jobbers who were desirous of being more highly comren , ated for their votes. He thought the entire commu nity would he exposed to the greatest demoralisation by the Ballot, inasmuch as there would be a check put upon freedom of dLotts-ion. ' Captain BERKELEY said, whenever Ike question of vote by Ballot had previously been discussed, he had given it his op.. position. He had done so because he believed that public opinion was the best correction of oppression, but since he found that public opinion was not to have its due control, and the voter was not tp be allowed to vote as he pleased, ho thought he had good reason for changing bis opinion.—(Hear, hear.) The Ju , ges of the country had declared bribery te be the abo mination of the land; and, when that was the case, he again thought that he was justified in changing his opinion on this subject. Captain BERNAL said the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Dorsetshire, had designated a former Government as a shabby Government, but he would ask what could be more shabby than for a Government to treat such a question as the Ballot as it had been treated by the Govornment that night?— ( Hear, hear.) It had been the practice with many to speak as if the Reform Bill was a boon. There were many who looked upa,n the franchise solely in a pecuniary point of view—by such the I3aLot must be regarded with dislike. There was, however, a very large class of persons who viewed the franchise with very different feelings; and rffir them he claimed the protection afforded by the Ballot. It had been remarked by one who was once a Member of that House, and who was now an eminent Judge in Equity, that so long as the poor possessed that which the rich desired to obtain, so long there would be intimidation and bribery. Mr. M. MILNES said, if the Hon. Member for WyCombe had been longer in the noose, he would have been a ware that her Majesty's Government never lose to speak in a grea t debate till late in the evening. He agreed with Hon. Gentle men oposite in saying that this questicn ought not to pass under a one-sided debate; but the question had been must fully debated on former occasions, when the Hon. Gentleman who first brought the subject before the House Was then a Member of that House, and whose absence they must all regret, on account of his great abilities. With respect to the question of bribery, no legislative enactment would prevent it, and the only means to adopt with respect to it were those proposed by him, and th en the Noble Lord opposite, to visit th e offen ce with a moderate but certain penalty. Bribery had e xisted in that very House. They all knew the rumour respecting Sir Rob ert Walpole who p isia a s ee si a id su to m ionfvmiteonfelyono.nMeeamchbcprlsatteo. dine i h w e i th tim r. Milnes) be listed that the people were such slaves as they were said to be, he could not refuse the remedy of the Hon. Member for Sheffield. But he did not believe it. He did not believe that bribery existed to such an extent as was a11 eged......(0h, oh. ) He believed that less money was spent at the last electi on t h an at previous elections.—(Oh, oh.) Were not the Earl of Fitz wilham, Lord Gainsborough, and Lord Grey, de feated in their own immediate neighbsurhoods, not by bribery, but by the overwhelming torrent of public feeling ? He fully believed that if the last election had been conducted upon the bad ptinciples alleged by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, he should agree with them in saying that the majority in that House were not the representatives of publie feeling. The exposures which had taken place in that House he re gretted, for he believed that would not result in public good. If the late non. Member for Bridport had stiffest ed by it, he have the effect of throwing (Mr. Milnes) was sort y for it. He was surprised that the day before the Noble Lord intended to bring his Bill forward for the purpose of exposing bribery, that the Hun. Member for gro unds wnatever, but upon Sheffield should bring forward a motion fur the purpose of con cealing bribery. The Ballot Would t h e great basis of corrup tion greater influence on the resident landowners. He believed the He did not landed aristocracy would gain by the eliane , e• op pose this question upon any party s sith the Ballot and other principle. The only question was, would the Ballot limit that intimidation, which was, after all, ? He saw that in America, aptliances,still intimidation existed to a great extent. He did not say that if b r ib er y an d i n timidition went on i ncreas i ng, he might not com e t o vote f or t h e Ballot himself.—( Laughter and cheers.) He b e li eve d th a t the Ballot was vehcice of evils. think the ex i g e ncy M the pres en t moment h e did no t existed. He did not believe that the people of England would barter their ' *rotes for a tail ag conk t, for they knew they found their re- 1 THE SUN, LONDO N , WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 22, 1842, ward in public opinion. A man that was doing wrong would never be very careful as to bow far that wrong went. He, therefore, again said that be did not think that the exigency ex isted for this organic change. The people did not want it, and, therefore, in that respect it was un-English. If they granted this change it would lead to another change more disastrous to the Constitution. Mr. C. PONSONBY could rot agree with the Hon. Gen- tleman, for he fully believed that the exigency did exist in a great degree. All the remedies to put down corruption and bribery heretofore tried had failed, and the Ballot was the only remedy which would strike them down.—( Hear, hear.) A very laudable desire was manifested on both sides of the House to inquire i n t o th e b r ib ery at t h e l ate elections, and if they wished to follow up these inquiries and give them full effect, they must adopt the Ballot.—( Hear. ) Mr. BYNG said that, as the present was a public question, he could not give a silent vote. in the first place he thought the Ballot would essentially alter the character of Englishmen.— ( Ministerial cheers ) He (lid not think it would be of any service to them, because he did net think Englishmen would ever conceal their real feelings and opinions. —(Hear, hear. ) They were from their infancy brought up to love truth and wa ! pta est veritas et preredebit.—( Hear, hear.) Both before anti a to the election they would live in a state of misery, afraid to open their mouths to their best friends. It would also prevent canvassing, and he confessed he always wished to meet the constituent body face to face, arid give them an account of his conduct.—( Hears hear. ) He remembered on one important question, when the " No Popery" cry was raised. he was near losing his election for want of bring able to meet his constituency. But a delay of ten days was occasioned by the death of one of the cant.i• dates, who got wet in his feet, arid died.—( Laughter.) And that enabled him to go amongst the constituency, and ex- Vain to the Dissenting voters, that if the Catholics were sa crificed this week, they would be sacrificed the next. He said to them " Do you think you ate loved more than the Catholics?" There were no Puseyites there.—(Much laughter. ) And thus, in consequence of being able to explain himself to the electors, he was declared unanimou-ly elected by the Sheriff ; and ever since he was fond of conversing and explaining his votes to his constituents.— ( Laughter, and hear, hear.) Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that he considered the lion. Member for Sheffield had an advantage in bringing forward this subject after the sceoes et the late election, because it proved thet men did not take up this question from any theo retical notions of a b s t rac t exce ll ence , b ut as a prac tical amend ment of eiisting evils.—( Hear, hear.) The public were of that opinion now, and their opinion was reflected in the House. Ile agreed with the Hen. and Venerable Member for Middlesex, that all the feelings of the country would, on the first view, be against them, anti he could under stand how nee like him, - who was the popular Member of a great constituency, and who had so dsservedly earned the respect, not merely of persons of his own pi litical opinions—( Hear, hear)—but also of those who were opposed to him---( Hear, hear)—would wish to see the enthusiasm of a crowd of supporters hurrying to the pull to record their votes in his favour; hut inwas nut every county which could boast of such a Member—( Hear, hear)—nor every Member that could boast of such a constituency. The theory of the Con stitution was, that every man's vote was free; but that was completely overborne in prae tice. With regard to intimidation, lie bad tio doubt the Ballot would put an end to everything of that kind. Every influence by means of opinion would not be got rid of, nor did he think it ought. The influence of the Roman Catholic elerg.yreen in Ireland, and the application of the No-Popery cry in England, could not be put an erd to by the Ballot. Nothing but the diffusion of intelligence and enlightenment would get rid of influence of this description. '1 he Ballot, after all, was a question of principle—not a mecha nical question.—( Hear, hear.) Recognise the right of the voter to vote as he pleased, and be would soon have opinions of his own. If the voter had no.. opinions of his own, it was be cause he did not consider the vote his own. 'I he Ballot he therefore thought would be a great improvement ou the present sy-tem, and he should. therefore, support it. Lord J. MANNERS wished to know whether the Ballot, if adopted, was to be forced down the throats of those who did net I.ke it—who, he believed, comprised the greater number of the electors of the country?—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") There was no excitement whatever, at prt sent, in the country in favour of the I3allot. He thought this was an insuperable ob jection to the plan, and the remedy for it was just as insuper able. They must first poll the constituencies for or against the Ballot by open votes, anti how were they to do this? If they could not do this, what became of their frequent appeals to public opinion, of their vox popish, sox dei? Mr. SHIEL said he was fully aware that it was more than chilli:nit to give novelty or freshness to a subject that had un dergone such repeated discussions, particularly when it had been treated by men of distinguished talent, and introduced so ably as it hail been by his Hon. Friend the Member for Shef field. If it were tueumbeut on those who took a share in this debate to imi art to it that interest which was only to be derived from new and refined speculations, he tor one should not try to dos(); but so far from this question being one that afforded them a theme for dexterous disputation, it appeared to hint that a great And simple que s ti on was rather impai re d titan advanced by any exhibitions of sophistry and acutenesss. Where great and manifest abuses t xisted, abuses not only cal able of proof, but of which the evidence amounted to demo nstration, where powerful facts could be so readily advanced, sustaining the proposition of his Hon. Friend, it was far better to revert to arguments which might hare been producad before, more especially because he remarked that it was by repeated appeals to the sense of justice on the part of the peopla of England that the public opinion of Englishmen was tOrmed, and the Ballot, if it was to be carried at all,' was to be carried as all the other great changes they had witnessed had been achieved ; those changes had been accomplished by a strenuous reiteration of some great truths anti important considerations upon the public anti upon parties. lie therefore made no sort of apology for re vertiog in the very first instance to some very striking cireurn stancee which had taken place with respect to the Ballot at the time the Reform Bill was first introduced.—(Hear.) It ap peared to him that in the history of the Ballot—that the histori cal part of the question —was a matter deserving both of know ledge and censioerai ion It seemed to him that it was of some importance to remove the impression that some sort of contract was made that the Reform Bill should be final and conclusive as against the Ballot.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the Noble Lord the :Member for London had been subjected to a great deal of misrepresentation by these who had affirmed that lie considered the Reform Bill as a sort of monument of legisla tion, where lie was " to set up his everlasting rest."—(Cheers.) He had ale - ass understood the words of the Noble Lord in a sense entireiY different to that which had been ascribed to them.—( Hear. ) It had been proved to demonstration that no such engagement had been entered into by the Mem bers of the Government of Lord Grey. They did not say that the franchise should be extended, but neither did they say that the mode in which that franchise should he exercised should net be changed—( Hear, hear)--end he should proceed to lay those proofs [More the House. In 1533, Lord Durham made a most important statement ; it was this—that a Committee of five individuals was appointed by Lord Grey's Government, for the purpose of ft amiug the plan of the Reform Bill, and that the Committee was formed of Lord Durham, the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham), Lord Brougham, the Noble Lord the Member for London (Lord J. Russell), and Lord Dungannon. The statements of Lord Durham on that oc casion attracted a great deal of notice, because it was deemed a twist important fact, that five persons belonging to the great Vi'hig party should, in !331, have taken a view with regard to the Ballot, so different from that which was afterwards admitted.—( Hear, hear.) The speech made by Lord Dui ham at Gateshead, drew some observations from Lord Brougham, at the dinner given at Edinburgh to Earl Grey ; and in July 1537, the Noble Lord, the Member for London, stated that he had the authority of his Sovereign to disclose whatever had taken place with respect to the Eeform Bill, anti the question now under consideration. He stated that the report drawn up by that Commit tee recommended that the deration of Parliament should be shortened to five years, at the sante time recommending that the votes of electors should be taken by the Ballot.—( Ch. ers. ) The Noble Lord, he per ceived, agreed with him as to this version of the statement the Noble Lord then made. 1 hat it was made, was beyond all doubt ; the Noble Lord never disguised the matter; on the con trary, he came forward and put the public in possession of all the 'farts.— ( Hear, hear.) At the same time, he mentioned that when that report was laid before Lord Grey's Government it was not ado ted, but it was agreed that, upon the question of the Ballot, no decision should be taken one way or the other; and afterwards, n hen the Noble Lord brcught forward the Reform Bill in 1531, he said, at the conclusion of the speech with which he introduced the measure, that on the question of the Ballot no expression of opinion was pointed out. The Hon. Mem ber for Montrose then said he was glad to find that the Ballot was a reserved question, as he was willing to see how the Reform Hilt worked before the measure of the Ballot was adopted by the Government. How then could they call that a final measure when the question of the Ballot was left un touched by it ?—( Hear, hear.) These were the nansactions which took place when the Reform Bill was introduced ; let him follow up those transactions When the Chandos clause was proposed, what was the course Lord Althorp adopted? He said the clause was in principle at variance with the true spirit of the Reform Bill, and he added that one great objection he entertained to it was that its adoption would ultimately afford strong reasons for the Ballot.—( Hear, hear.) He found these three facts combined ; first, that before the Reform 13111 was brought in the Committee who formed it approved of the Ballot ; next that when it was introduced into the House of Commons the Noble Lord, by whom it was brought in, declared that the Ballot was a reserved ques tion ; and thirdly, in the progress of the Bill, the leader of the House of Commons, the present Earl Spencer, declared he con sidered the principle of the Bill invaded, that an alteration had been grafted into it, by which its principle had been invaded, and by which a powerful argument would be afforded why the Ba let should be adopted. Now let them follow the Bill from the Commons into the House et Lords; Lord Wharneliffe is now a Member of the Cabinet, and the opinion expressed by the Noble Lord— Lord STANLEY intimated across the table that the Hon. and Learned dember had adverted to hose facts before. 11r. SHIEL admitted that he had alluded to these facts in 1h39 ; but he had no opportunity of showing them what was the effect of the Chandos clause. Did it follow that because he had adverted to them before, they were not again to engage the attention of the public ? He was proceeding to say, that at the time Lord Wharnchffe made that speech, he was not amem bet- of the Cabinet ; but now be was a member of the Cabinet, of which the leading Reformers of that period were now also part.—( Hear.) He stated that the adoption of the Chandus clause, if the landlords exercised their power under it, would prepare the way fur the vote by Ballot. Lord Grey also, the head of the Government, complained that the character of the Fill was mutilated and destroyed; that the adoption of the clause would augment the power of the gentry of the country, and would ultimately form the most powerful argument in favour of the adoption of the Ballot. 11'hen all these circumstances, then, had taken place, it was most unfair for any one to assert that the Reform Bill was meant to be a sort of stoppage to the Ballot. By the Reform Bill the counties were divided into sections, and the number of the Members was increased ; more power was thus given to individuals of large property in that locality ; and Earl Grey predicted that it that power were ex ercised the people would endeavour to reduce it within legitimate limits. The same position was laid doer n by the Noble Lord the Member fur London in tl e review he published of the state of the country. There was not a gendetran in that House who bad not acknow letlged that ext.' naive intimidation had been practised. It w,s acknowledged by the lion. 31embcr for Pontefract, who said if it were continued, it would be his solemn duty to vote for the Pallot. He need not then dwell on this point ; it was on all sides admitted. The question then was, What was to be done? The Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Govern ment had again and again declared his abhorrence of intimi dm ion, and had repudia'ed, and extorted, a retractation of the ehrsge, that he had been guilty of it to some individuals sup pesed to be independent of him in Tamworth. Holding those cannons, was it not incumbent on him to devise some means for putting down intimidation? He had, to his great credit, given his accordance to the effectual measure introduced by his Noble Friend against bribery, but nothing had been done against intimidation. The Right Hon. Baronet had declared that it was not the interest of his party to defend bribery, and surely he would not allow that it was the interest of his party to 4ene au rage intimidation ?—( Hear, hear.) Let them see whether the Ballot would put a stop to intimidation ; the three chief objections made to the Ballot were, that it would nut secure secresy, that it would diminish the in- Auenco of property, and that it was of an immoral and guilty character. These objections were rather ireca.sistent with each other, for if it was not an efficient instrument for se 'err. ;eerecy, it could not b e an e ffi c i ent mean s of demoralisa wu not t a. objeCtion that it would not ieo+4 o tecros7 supported by facts; a petition he had that day presented from the householders of St. James's, in which it was stated that the Ballot was adopted in their parochial matters, and that it both secured secresy and prevented intimidation. De Tocqueville also affirmed that the Ballot was the great protec tion of the electors of France against undue influence. Under the present system a man was inclined to resent a vote given against him as a wrong, but he did not think he would act thus on a mere surmise. It would also check the in flu, nee of inferior agents over the proprietors of land, who fre quently incited their principals to vengeance. The influence of property was one thing, but the despotism of property was another.—(Cheers.) He did not think that the fair influence of property would be 6:imiLished by the Ballot. A good land lord would still retain it. But it was for them to consider, whether the influence of property might not be ultimately car ri. d to excess, by which that influence would be endangered. Bef.ie the Relorm bill was introduced, the system of nomination was carried to a monstrous excess, and an oligarchical interest had arisen in the State. Since the passing of the Helium Bill, borough after borough had !alien into the hands of a few individuals.; and it would seem as it before long "a close county," would become a fa milt, r phrase. It. was said, however, that immorality would 1 lie tneourageci by a system of clandestine voting—that j simulation and falsehood would he its inevitable results—that men would make promises without any intention to fulfil them —end that distrust and jealousy would usurp the place of con fiderice and good faith. Now it was his conviction that pro , mires given from a man's free volition would he always gene rally observed, and that nu reliance should be placed upon pro mises wrung from terror or won by corruption. lie found in the speech of Demosthenes, on the " False Embassy," a pas , sege so strikingly in point that he could not refrain from reading it to the House, although he was aware that but little value wan generally set on the opinions of men who flourished in ante, nt times. In the si.eech in questiern, Demosthenes, after stating that the vote was to be by Ballot, in addressing an as sembly of 500 judges, proceeded to say—" If any of you, be fore you have entered this assembly, has had the misfortune to enter into a promise to vote against your conscience and against, your country, bear in mind that that pro mise is void; those with whom you have entered into that culpable engagement e ill not know whether you fulfilled it er not, hut there is a Divinity above that has cognizance of all your faults, that will know whether you have fulfilled that duty to your country which is paramount to every o ther obli gation. Your vote is secret, and by the wisest law that Solon ever passed, immunity is secured to you."—( Hear, hear. ) There was a truth and force in that sentiment applicable to every country where tree institutions existed. A dishonourable contract was a void one, and the performance of a trust ought to be attended with safety. T 1 e franchise was not a trust for an individual, it was a trust for one's country ; and parties should be uncontrolled in its performance. He admitted that there were evils connected with the Ballet, but he believed that they were more than out-weighed by those incidental to the present system. He was free to confess that if the franchise were ex ercised with perfect freedom, he, for one, should wish to pre serve that system of voting which was congenial to the ancient habits of the people of England. He admitted that an honest voter, openly, and in the face of day, recording his conscien tious opinion, presented a noble spectacle ; but let them turn their eyes for a moment from the eentemplation of such an object to the scenes whir h took place in his (Aar. Shiers) oen wretched country. Let them turn from " the Cumber land statesman," whose spirit was as free as the air which he brew hes—( Hear, hear)—to the 101. freeholder, who had the misfortune to pass the Registration Court, and who had received a summons from his landlord to attend at the hustings. Let them suppose a contest between a Whig and a Tory ; on the one side were the poor man's feelings—and he had his feel ings like themselves—on the one side were all his national predilections, all his religious emotions, all his personal at tachments, all his affections—perhaps on the one side he saw a man whom he was accustomed to regard as the deliverer of his country, while his heart beat, and his eye grew dim, as he beheld him ; but, on the other side, he saw the champion of that fierce ascendancy by which there. was a time when his country was trampled under foot, which vilified his religion, which covered his altars with opprobriem, which looked with contempt upon all that he revered; but it was for the latter he was called upon to vote—( Hear, hear)—it was for him he was called upon to give his false, his miser able, extorted suffrage. Trembling, cowardly, shrinking, scarcely able to sustain himself, he mounted the hust ings as if it were a scaffold, and with a voice almost inarticulate with emotion, when asked for whom he would vote, uttered trot the name of the man whom he re spected, whom lie loved, but that of the man whom he loathed, detested, and ebliorred—( Hear, hear)—or, perhaps, under the influence of emotions half heroical, and half religious, he re volted !roles the tyranny that was sought to be rivetted upon hint; perhaps he did vote in conformity with the dictates of his c onscience, and with what, under the influence of a gener ous delusion, he regarded as the ordinance of his religion. The poor wretch ! before a month had gone by, all he had on earth was seized. The horse with which he ploughed, the beast which gave him milk, the bed upon which he reposed, were no lotiger his ; he went foith with Providence for his guide, and God for his avenger. Was that a system which they were prepared to maintain? For that system no man who had come forward to oppose the Ballot had proposed a remedy. But the Ballot was, forsooth, an immoral process, and an un-English proceeding !—( Hear, hear.) He understood the force of that latter phrase; he knew the noble attributes of the people of this country. Fraud was, indeed, un-English ; duplicity and double-dealing were un-English. But bribery, too, was not English ; cowering fear upon the one side, and brutal tyranny upon the other, were un-English. And ye t these were the un- English consequences of the present system —consequences to which he called upon them to apply a remedy in the narhe of 1 justice and humanity—in the name of every high and honour able consideration.—( Hear, hear.) They were told that they might leave the correction of the abuses of the present system to public opinion. But the power of public opinion had not arrested bribery, and still less, he believed, could it arrest in timidation. There were many who condemned bribery, and who yet considered coercion as a subject of self-congratulation ; there were landlords—great patricians—who openly proclaimed that " a marl had a right to do what he pleased with his own," and who boldly advocated the doctrine of coercion. Now, while such language was held, he tho ug ht th at pu bli c op i n i on could afford but a very inadequate remedy for existing evils ; mud if that were so, he entreated them in the r.ame of the high honour and renown of this country—he entreated them in the name of every motive national and individual, to pause before they rejected the means, the only means by which the spirit of epertion wrought into the present system could be re strained— the only means by which all the suffering and all the misery that followed from a general election could he arrested —the means without which there was not a glimpse of hope that, to a state of things the most calamitous and degrading, any palliation could be applied.-_( Cheers. ) • - fir J. GRAHAM said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had observed at the commencement of his speech, and with very great truth, that the present subject was one to which even genius and eloquence like his own could not add anything like freshness of argument. And certainly he ( Sir J. Graham) should say that the Right Hun. Gentli man seemed to have implicitly relied upon the shortness of the memory of thews, gentlemen who had been Members of former Parliaments, and upon the absence of curiosity on the part of new Members, who he appeared to think must have abstained from all reference to that n:ost useful repository of former debates, he alluded to " Han sard ," for he should say, without meaning any offence to the • Right Honourable Gentlemen, that everything in his splen did declamation was to be found, almost without excep ' lion, exactly in the order in which he had stated both his facts and his arguments that evening, in the speech which he bad delivered on the same question in the year 1839 the last occasion on which the matter was under . discus sion in that House. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said that he thought the question was to be treated histo rically, and that it was of vast importance to refer to what had taken place previous to the introduction of the Reform Act, by the Noble Lord the 'Member for London. He believed that the Night Hon. Gentleman was not correct in stating that the Coin a ittee of Lord Grey's Government to whom the pt eparat ion of tie. Reform Bill was entrusted consisted of five persons. He (Sir .1. Graham) thought it consisted of only four persons, namely, the late Lord Durham, Lord Duncannon, the Noble Lord %shorn he saw opposite (Lord J. Russell), and himself (Sir J. Graham). He could not refer explicitly to what had oc cut red on that occasion. He had already stated, in the year 1839, that the Noble Lerd, the Member for London, declared that he had received the permission of his late Majesty to make a full disclosure of the secret coursels which had pre ceded the introduction of the Reform Bill.—[Lord J. Russell here made an observation, which was inaudible in the gallery.] Put he ( Sir J. Graham) stated then, and he repeated now, that lie had received no such permission, and he was therefore obbged to speak with considerable reserve. 'flue Noble Lord would, however, correct him if he should fall into any error. He should first observe that the measure prepared by the Com mittee appointed by Lord Grey's cabinet, was not brought for ward by them as a measure to which they were individually pledged ; or to which they meant finally to adhere ; but they had formed a scheme to be afterwards considered by their colleagues in the Cabinet. He might be allowed to state in passing that upon no occasion had he voted in favour of the Ballot. Lord Althorp, previous to the passing of the Reform Act, had supported it ; but he (Sir J. Graham) had differed from him, and had voted against the measure. Now, observe what was the course taken by Lord Althorp upon the sub ject atter the passing of the Reform Act. In the me nth of April, 1833, Mr. Grote had brought forward ! his motion in favour of the Ballot. Lord Althorp upon that 1 occasion said, " he appealed to every gentleman who had been in the last Parliament, and who knew the whole proceedings, while the Reform Act was going on, whether the pro , moters of that mea- ore did not consider that so far as the representation of the people was concerned it was to be looked uron as a final measure." There had been some dispute as to the word finality, but that was the designation given by Lord Althorp himself, because that Noble Lord had stated that the Government proposed the measure as a final one. He concurred in the opinion of the Noble Lord, and as far as he was concerned in Lord Grey's Cabinet, the Reform Act was a final measure.'With respect to the opinions of the Noble Lord the Member for London, he con curred with all that had been stated ; and with respect to the course pursued by Lord Grey's Government the Noble Lord was as much connected with it as himself. If he believed the Ballot was likely to be a barrier to ulterior changes he would support it ; but be agreed with the 'Noble Lord the Member fur London that it would lead to as great changes as the Char tists desired.—( Hear, hear.) Ile concurred with the Noble Lord that if the Ballot were granted the next step would be Universal Suffrage. That was a proof that the 501. tenants could exercise their franchise fairly, notwithstanding they were opposed to their landlords. He was of opinion, with the Hon. Member for the county of Middlesex, that secret voting was against the English character. The only party to whom the Ballot was available was the juggling hypocritical coward.— ( Hear, hear.) It was inconsistent with the manners, feeling, and character of Englishmen or their institutions.—( Hear. ) If they ever entertained the question of the Ballot Universal SO) age must follow as a necessary consequence.—(Hear.) Until it was his misfortune to despair of the present state of things he would not support the Ballot, and he trusted that the motion would be rejected by a large majority. Mr. Sergeant MURPHY believed that the people of Eng land had been bound hard and foot by the aristocracy because they had not the Vote by Ballot.—( Bear.) If the Ballot was bad in principle why had it been recommended by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ?—( Hear, hear.) For hit own part he believed that the Begot was the only just mode of voting. Sir JAMES GRAHAM denied that he had been pledged to the Ballot at any time. It was true that the subject had come under dismosion in Lord Grey's Government, but by ar rangement every Member of that Government was allowed to follow his own opinions. Mr. O'CONNELL denounced such an arrangement as dirty, cowardly, arid paltry conduct.—( Hear. ) He believed that the Ballot was the only just mode of taking the opinion of voters, and he should, therefore., give it his support. He read fur them, the other evening, during the discussion on the Isleweastle. under-Lym e election, an instance of a father, who, with the knowledge that his son had accepted a bribe, had at tended with him at the hustings, and seen him take the bribery oath ; and when asked how he could have allowed his son to perjure himself, his real y was, "he had seen many others do it." There was their system for them! In the ease of the Sudbury Election Committee, a witness stated that a contested election did more injury to public morals in that tlace than all the preaching of the ministers of the Gospel could counteract. Various devices had been resorted to escape the oath. Some had recommended that . by the obligation the leg t vz i e na ru,? word " not" they would swear the truth. consciences had not even taken that trouble to solace bi b% co omitted tstirraiithroustion:arlidorperjury.Al. That . was the Eggs talked of consciencel and in many discussions, on religioesi that House how many bigoted refusals es'ere there to do' justice to others, because they differed in religious belief fretta them. There was one ,advantage, at all events ; they weil e e e ll agreed, theoretically, at least, a s t o morals; but here van practical demonstration of the practical effeot of their English system—their conscientious system, which left the briber to get the value of his money from the bribed, The effect of the Ballot would be to make men genemin s , no, % elen minded, hun e ene.—( Hear, hear.) The deteriorating effects' the inesent s; stem were undeniable,. No one had attempte• to deny the existence of bribery. Some had qualified it ; other • might have exaggerated it, but all admitted the frighttul ex- • tent to which it prevailed. He certainly should vete for the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, would not allow him to give a silent vete on the motion of the Hon. Member for Sit, ifiestd. With respect to that portion of them ishieh referred to what had taken place relative to the Reform Bill, he del not know , that the account he had to give, would differ materially from, that given by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He (Lord J. Ms-, sell) would allude oniy, therefore, to what had hem) his own. expectiocs and i pinions on the subject. The late Lord Durham s jai l (n, t; iiit i :l l :ly:f,e,sbi i : :: ::;Gd t ,Bo l laei 21r; 'I hat eta smear lz a : t 1,(1, . G ot t r e ef mo asibi(otrnetedhbe,, another s that toia,fiertn t bv lr e e n r di e lt which to his (Lord J. Itu.siell'e) mind, and to the mind of any one censersent ith the trans ether's of the period, bore the character of having beets written or communicated by some men ber of Lord Grey's' Government. Upon that occasion he (Lent J. Ruseteil) tiniught it necessary to apply to his late itivjeety, King Wil liam ti.e Fourth, to allow hint, if he she'll! think it at any time necessary to make a statement of ohat had occurred with respect to the Reform Bill, so far as his (Lord J Russell's) owe public character WAS concerned. tie had received hie Itlajeety's greeious j eneiseion, and some time afterwards he S au d made she statement to which his flight Jinn. Friend had alluded. That statement referred, as the Right. Hun. • Gentlernati had said, to the recommendations of the Committee to Lord Grey's Cabinet. Those recommendations were a general outline, which was to he considered by the. Cabinet before Icing finally adopted. There were two points with regard to which the Committee made recommeteiations nhich had not been adopted by the Cabinet. They related to secret voting—( Hear, hear)—and the iteration of Parliament. The votes which he bad given precious to that occasion were in conformity and consistent with the votes be had given since, namely, against the Ballot. lie hat had an opinteu—not the opinion he now entertained after the discussions which had taken platoo.and the various lights in which the question had been put—but ho had had an cipission partly gathered !rem his own refiectiuns, red partly trout the speeches made on the subject by Ain Brice bale in this Henses et Parliament, showing as he (Lord I. Russell) thrught, that secret young would not he carried into effect. There were. other reasons with regard to what he considered likely to le a cons, quenee-- increase of briber)—which had made him total} averse to the adoption of the plan. There were other 'reasons in its favour ; and with respect to the whole sub ject lie then thought, as Lord Althorp afterwards expre.sed, that it. would be desirable, if possible, to make the Reform Bill, which was to be introdpeed, a final measure. It seemed to him that by leaving those guts:ion% of secret voting and duration of Parliament to be afterwards debated, the eel tleeit.nt of the subject would be effected better than it when wise could. Those were the reasons that lied operated on his mind with reference to those questions. However, on mature deliberation, the Cabinet had rejected those two points of the scheme, arid he had willingly consented u. propose the Reform Bill without those parts of the scheme being introduced. He had on that occasion stated that there was• etoprovisiou for the adoption of the Ballot no provision with respect to the duration of Parliament -- that he himself did not consider that those subjects were finally concluded, hot that Government. if they should hereafter see teaser] to think that that measure might be usefully adopted, would be at liberty to recommend it. That was subetantislly the state ment which lie had made, differing as the Itight lion. Gentle man had shown from the statement afterwards ream: by Lord Althorp, who considered, not at that moment, but.dur.'g the subsequent discussion, that the enactment, of the liefornt gill was a settlement of the whole question. He. Lad endeavetweed to state carefully what was his own impreesiminon the subjeci, what was the determination of the Government, and it would: seem to him tie follow from that statement that eitime with respect to himself or any Member of the then Goyernment, they were at liberty to take any objection which might seem to them a valid objec tion. With respect to the Ballot, the statements, that lied been made that night on the subject, 'scented to have this difficulty in them that they did not contain the whole of the plan which the majority of those who were in favitor ef the Ballot were disposed to support. Now, if they adopted the Ballet, as the electoral body was now learned, with respect to the smaller borough:, it was. probable time wholesale bribery would be practised. He asked, then, it .the Ballot had evew been found to produce wholesome and salutai)oeffects ill other countries, was it likely to produce them in this ?—( Hear) hear.) He said with his Hen. Friend, that he could imagine nothing more contrary to the Luglish character. He could well imagine that there were irgenious persons who bad carried to • perfection the machinery el the I}al.oe box, that •they could place in a room a certeirr contrivance which would prevent the passibility of any one encovt ring fer whom a man gale his vote; but then what machinery was there which would make an Englishinan— an Eogiish farmer or an English tradesman—reserved, and cunning, and secret, in all his transactions ?—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches. ) Let them show him, it they oould, by what contrivance the character of en Englishman would be so clanged that his landlord would not be able to tell what were his political opinions? Let them show him the contrivance by which at no club, at no dinner, neither in the privacy of his domestic line nor on any occasion of public excitement, he should betray his seetitnetits, or that it should only be on this ' day of voting that he expressed his opinions, and on every other day. they should be perfectly secret and perfectly concealed. —(llear„ltear.) These things were centrised in the Senate o Venice. • In the Senate of Venice there was a most ingenion conttivance with respect to the election of the Doge. Seven electeu forty-five, fifty-eye elected five, and five elected twenty three, arid through that contrivance it was said that election were decided without bribery, without intimidation, and nith. out ittfluence 0 , any sort. y That might suit the cline and, reserved character of the Venetian Senate—it did not suit the character of tile English.--(Cheers from the Al inisteriel Benches.) I3y means of such voting they might in tome eases prevent infirnidatton and bribery, but the great, the gigantic, evil vchieh they would introduce would far counterbalance all the good which they would effect, arol the lots of the honeet and brave English character would be a loss which rotting hereafter could ever repair.—( Hear, hear.) He had now stated the grounds upon which he had voted against the Ballot on former occasions. "ikith respect to the change then pro posed, lie could not imagine that it was the only change ankh its advocates recommended ; he, therefore, asked to have :he whole plan before he voted for any croirTe of that detterip tion. Taking the Ball o t atomic, he doubted its excellency. He knew of no country in which It had predueed those a 'minket and beneficial effects as inch it was said it was interdict tospre duce. He thought, in itself, it was calculated to produce fraud and concealment, and to injure the character of the people; and therefore now, as on former occasions, between record his vote against the motion.—( Cheers.) Mr. M'A KLEY said he was very much surprised at the cheers with which the Noble Lora had been receieted by Hun. Members opposite. In 1831, the Noble Lord, in et:in junction with the Right Hon. Baronet, agreed in rem's- , mending to Lord Grey's Government that the Ballot should be onus of the measures taken into consideration and adopted. He thought that showed how recklessly, thoughtlessly, or dishonestly public men shaped their enurse with regard to different measures which they submitted to. the Legislature. le that case he did not believe that. the recommendation was di-honestly made; but it was an ext mplification of the fact, that measures affecting the right s and liberties of the people were frequently brought fet ward by men holding most responsible situations without due consideration. Now he was placed aide respect to this question of the Ballot in a very disagreeable iv sition.—(lmughter.) In the speech of the Noble ford tieere was but ore argument against the Ballot, namely, that if the Ballot was applied to the present constituencies it would lead to other changes, the most important of which would be an cm. tension of the suffrage. Now his conviction . was directly the reverse. The present constituencies had a monopoly of the power of voting, the number who possessed the right to vot e being as one to seven. Did the House believe that if they were to give to I he present electors the right of exercising the electoral franchise iu secret, and free from the responsibility which the opinion of the non-elector now threw upon him—eid they believe that the electors would be willing to sh am, their no n hower, by bringing in a g rea t er num b er o f voters ? —( H ear, iear.) There was a great deal said about ioriependerit voting, but he believed what they really wanted, was vowel- on their own side of the question. The working classes nould'say, in reference to this question, " if you are determined to adopt the Radon give us first a share in the ?erne, and don't place us at the mercy of torn who are utinuni ful of the iutereets of their country." Consequently, although he should vote for the written— ( Laughter )_notwithstanding all be had said against it—(Loud laughter)—he concluded simply with this remark, that if the House should carry the motion, and if a Bill should be introduced fur carrying it into effect, if he could not envereed in connecting with this motion an extension of the suffrage, no person would give to it a more hearty, a more consistent, or more determined opposition than himself.—( Hear.) Lord WORSLEY supported the motion. His belief was. that notwithstanding all the arguments which he had heard that night against the Ballot, there were abuses in the prefect system which could not be remedied by any other measure. He thought the people would not poesees the fall benefit of the Reform Bill until the Ballot had been established. Mr. WA VD rose amidst loud cries of "Divide," and said that in the then state of the House he should comptess thy kse remarks he had to make into as few words as possible. Ho rose with peculiar satisfaction, st a a tt ien lmc t l s ose up o o f n a 1 1 , o h n i g ,th d i e , b e a l te t . ;te to .4 find that hardly arty of the ten his case had been contradicted. In fact all his allegations were admitted—nobody disputed them, for all at•knowledgod that bribery anti corruption prevailed to a great extents 'lb* lion. Member for Pontefract absolutely gave him hopes of hie being a convert to the measure. lie (Olr, Ward) had ritern as the advocate of the Ballot,believing that ihey could sup; Tess bribery by law, and that they could not touch intimidation. The Noble Lord said that the Ballot was not sufficient. Oue half of those who looked to the question that night did not at tacit any finality; on the contrary, he did runt believe the Ballot alone would he the means of a perfectly free repreeeuta tiers of this country ; but he said that it was the 'must bene ficial and practical change the circumstances of the country would admit.—( Hear, hear.). Nothing would more contribute to put an end to • that practice which they all seemed to deplore. The Noble Lord objected to it on the ground that it would lead to further organic change. Now, the Noble Lord had to contend with that are* meat when he introduced the Reform Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord also referred to Rote, and said that the Ballot existed there when corruption . vs-as at its highest. lie (Mr. Ward) did not think the people believed that the Ballot wouiltdee in state of morality amongst believed that it would check intimidation and bribery. The Noble Lord also referred to France, but a Fremih writer had eonetncitersc'd, introduce higherthoy lay r•l n te r stated that w t rf d ela t ts h , : d..e i r i e t lately slid that their great security was abuli:lould he l e e : : t i t ? tt, h i e i: s o t bwe p , i hr i i i • s t i l fd e gu theet },atGeodobviireeir:fLt ( Cries of " Divide, divide.") lienic,Totuilei nsoutbdieetcattafotlriwe aHrzaset.ut he bad he should leave it in the hands of the House. . The House then divided— For the motion.. 4•••••••• 157 Againstit... ..................................... 290 Majority against the mot ion ...... CHSTO.‘IS BILL. The House then omit it-to Committee on the Customs Mll e and certain verbal amendment s were made. •' - The House then resumed, and the Bill Was .ordered to be primed.— It, port on Thursday next, ELECTION PROCEEDINGS. • r O n the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, Mr. WO.ltiilei 6nd Sir W. Ileatheute were discharged from further atter:ditto* on the Election Proceedings Committee ; and Mr. Wilson Patten and Mr. Eliot Yorke. were added to it. • 'MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND). Lord ELIOT moved for leave to bring in a Il to amend the &I and 4th of her present Majesty, intituled, 4 ` An Act for the Regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland." The Nchle Lord explained that the object cf the Bill was to remedy gone informalities that had occurred in munloinal elentoiMs in Ireland. Me ?notion was agreed to, fbi Bit) viar sibMoF4ttiv read a