The Sun. — London, England, 1856-04-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL -PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY). The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. TORTURE IN BENGAL. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH begged to call the attention of her Majesty's Government to a recent case of torture in Bengal, and expressed a hope that care would be taken to ascertain the whole particulars of the case. The Duke of ARGYLL said he was not aware of the case mentioned by the noble earl opposite, but he would take care that the whole subject should be thoroughly investigated, and every particular connected with the case should be collected. On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the Colonial Bank Bill was read a third time and passed. TORTURE IN INDIA. The Earl of ALBEMARLE stated that he intended to fix the first meeting of the select committee, to inquire into the subject of torture in India for Mor.day, the sth of May. He expressed a wish that the inquiry should be confined to the question, so far as it related to re venue cases, but he did not know how far the arrange ment would be practicable. The Bishop of HEREFORD presented petitions against the abolition of Church rates. The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition, pray ing for such an alteration of the law as would put an effectual stop to clandestine marriages. The Earl of DERBY presented a petition against the abolition of Chur c h ra t es unt il an equivalent had been provided. TICKET-OF-LEAVE SYSTEM. The Earl of SALISBURY rose to move for copies of all documents and petitions relating to the discharge of certain convicts upon tickets of leave. The noble earl said the object of his motion was to ascertain under what circumstances tickets of leave had been granted to certain individuals, and although Government stated that nothing could be done to alter the present system without an act of Parliament, yet the utmost un willingness was shown by them in submitting any alteration of the present law. The noble mar quis proceeded to examine the working of the system in general, which he - strongly condemned. He thought that an alteration of the present law was ab solutely necessary in the present state - of things. He begged to move for the papers for which he bad given notice. The Duke of ARGYLL said he lAd applied to the Home-office for the particulars of the above cases, and he thought that when they were laid on the table of their lordships' house they would be deemed perfectly satisfactory. The noble duke then explained the several cases which the noble marquis more particularly m en . tioned. He would lay upon the tablo the report of COL Jebb upon the subject, which he was - sure would be read with the utmost interest by their lordship; and would show that although some isolated.cases in which the results - were unsatisfactory might be bro'sght for ward, nevertheless the system, on the whole, was at tended with success. Eail STANHOPE said he thought the noble duke had shoWei sufficient reason why these returns should not be, granted. He thought that the policy of the ticket-of-leave system could not be satisfactorily argued, -except in special cases, without taking into considera tion the whole question of secondary punishments. He was not going to move for a committee, as the other house had appointed one, but he thought their lordships should have an opportunity of offering any practical suggestions which might occur to them. He wished the Government to consider, in the first place, if further encouragement and support might not be given to those useful inetitutiens, termed reformatory schools for the young, the beneficial effects of which were so salutary. Take the instance of a school of this description esta blished at Cheltenhnm. He held in his hand a report, made of that institution by Mr. Baker, who stated that in 1852 there were in it 20 boys under the age of 14 once convicted, 24 who had been more than twice; but now there was not more than one boy who had been more than once convicted of any crime. Mr. Baker, in that report, gave th e t rue pr i nc i p l e on which"these schools should be founded, or they would be productive of harm instead of good, and that was never to give boys of this description any advantage which would not be given in society to the sons oF honest men. Now, that was a most important principle ; for their lordships would find that if an advantage were given to criminals in these persons heyond what honest men received in society it was an encouragement to crime, and from that moment they did harm insteae of good. On that ground he put it to her Majesty's Government whether some other aid should not now be given in aid of those insti tutions more than they now received , : The next sugges tion he should take leave to urge was the possibility and expediency of founding a new colony. That was a point on which he earnestly entreated the attention of her Ma- , jesty's Ministers. There was the establishment at More ton Bay, about which he hoped the Government would give diem some information. He had heard that the inks . bitante of that colony had petitioned the home Government for convicts; but because the greater colony of New South Wale., to which Moreton Bay formerly belonged, ob jected, the . Government at home, out of deference to them, refused to , accede to the request so made. If Western nnestralia or Moreton Bay be found i na d equa t e why should they not proceed at once to establish a new colony ? He acknowledged the difficulties with which the question was surrounded, but amid those difficulties 'there was one consideration which must cheer and en courage them—the consideration that their past eff nts would be conducive to their future success. Earl GRANVILLE could assure the noble lord that nothing was farther from the disposition of the Govern ment than to regard the remarks which be had made as being characterised by any spirit of hostility. With regard to the suggestion of the noble earl, that the Government should give some increased assistance to reformatory schools, he (Lord Granville) might mention 'that that subject bad for a long time occupied the at tention of the Ministry, and for some days a Commit ` ‘tee of Council had been summoned for toenorrow, to consider a final minute upon that point. The other suggestion was one, the adoption of which was sur rounded with great difficulty. With one or two of the observations made by the noble earl he (Earl Granville) could not entirely agree. The noble earl suggested that Moreton Day should be separated from Australia, 'end that there should be founded a new penal colony. It Was quite obvious that it must be matter for very serious consideration whether, in dealing with Australia, you could cut out a portion of one of the provinces, in order to apply there .a system which was so much ,dreaded by all the other colonies. At the same time he thought it, was worthy of consideration whether it. might not he possible to establish an entirely new colony for this purpose,. lie did not wish to answer at any length the observations which had been made by his ' noble friend, but merely to suggest to his consideration , whether it might not be desirable to appoint a corn- Mittee of their lordships' house to inquire into the whole of the subject. . Lord .LYTFELTON could not approve of the sugges 'tlon of his noblefriend ( Earl Stanhope} as totho foundation of a convict colony, which he regarded as a proposition to return to a system of transportation, which theexperience of late years bad shown to be 'exceeding ly unadvisa.ble. He suegested that s i m pl e punishment of f b banishment by exile might be adopted, and also expressed an opinion in favour of imprisonment for an indefinite time, and where there was no reformation, imprisonment for life. (Hear.) Earl GREY hoped that the committee suggested- by his noble friend (Earl Granville) would be moved for by Pail Stanhope, as he regarded the 3ubject with ,great interest, and felt satisfied that a deliberate inquiry into the question would be highly successful. There were many points on which their information was not perfect, and there was no better mode of obtaining it than by the examination of witnesses before a committee of their lordships' bouee. He cordially concurred with his noble friend (Earl Stenhope).in his views, es .to the read ad v'entages of transportation ; and he believed that the strictly penal part of the sentence was better carried on at home, under our immediate eyes, than abroad. He s noble friend mentioned that there was a question still pending as to the reception of convicts at Moreton Bay, ittoonsequenee of theoppositioa of the colonists in ether pints of Anetralia. Now he (Lord Grey) could nrt but express his opinion, that such an opposition on the part of those colonists ought not to be allowed. The whole wealth of Australia had been created in the first iuetauce by the produce of the labour of the convicts sent to Atl4. tealia ; and was it, he asked, just and expedient, that those colonists should now turn round on their fellow tedonists and say —" You shall not have the advantage of elnviet labour beeati-.3 it is no longer convenient to us ?". With regard to the op inion Veit a new penal celony should b e formed, he as very much of the same opinion as his noble friend who spoke before bin, be cause the whole of the advantages of th convict system from in the colonies would arise fentitire dispersion a t of the oon inets. He cou ld assure their lordships t be weuld be a most co s tly opera , founding of a new ony doe, di and that, as in col other would nevenbe repaid. eases, tla e money expended Lord LYTTELTO:N. —Tae mon ey to which th e no bl e lord refers has been reEaid by the nem colonies --every pai.ny of it, , Earl GREY could only say that very m any of his friends had informed him that they had never been re. paid their money. He concluded by urging the inap awe of considering the act of 1853, so as to avoid breakort ing down the. very main spring of the improved 'ey3tern of,prison discipline. .:„The krlari of.DBEIJIY said there werigreat difficulties doubtless surrounding this question, but he rejli;:ed to see :Oaf both in this and in the other Hoiiie of lia meet there seemed to be every disposition on all sides to approach the-discussion of it without any pa r ty cionside rations, and in a moat dispassionate, manner. But not ouly.did they approach the discussion of this great na :- tienal question in the spirit he had indicated, but they were tolerably well agreed as to what plans they should • 'pursue. There were two diffiault;es in their way, the one arising from the reluctance of our colonies to receive our convicts, and the other was the danger to society, aris ing from the release of men convicted of aggravated offences—usen, in fact, who were dangerous to them selves as .veil as to society from their inability, when discharged,• o f o b taining honest employment, evenif de circus to do so. Such were the difficulties with which they had to deal. fie was quite ready to admit that, o:actically speaking, they had taken a great step in the substitution of what they hoped would be a reformatory /inition of the sentence in this country rather than in the colonies. Secondly, the operations of that system were solunch more closely watched in this country than they oonld be in the colonies, at the distance at which tran liartation was formerly carried on. He agreed with the able earl who had just sat down as to the serious danger o society which arose from the too early period . at which erions sentenced to long terms of imprisonment were Mowed to enter again upon society. There weia advan a gee, so long as it could be carried out, in the old aye- Lord CAMPBELL agreed with the suggestion made by the noble earl, that his noble friend should move for a select committee to investigate the entire subject. After a few words from Lord HARROWBT and the LORD CHANCELLOR, Earl STANHOPE said that the recommendation made by his noble friend, the President of the Council, for the appointment of a r-e'ect committee, met with such ap• proval, that he would, with their lordships' permission, on an early evening, move that the entire subject be in• quired into by a committee of their lordships' house. The motion was then witldrawn. The Charitable Uses Bill was read a second time, and their lordships adjourned at a quarter to nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Imprisoned Debtors Discharge Society Bill was read a third time and passed. The Cambridge University and Town Bill, the Chel tenham Gas, the Cork and Youghal Railway, and the Eayt Somerset Railway Bill, were considered, and or dered to be read a third time. Sir J. WALAISLEY presented a petition, signed by the " chairman" of a meeting of married women of Leicester, deprecating flogging men for beating their wives, as tending to brutalise and demoralise them, but praying that some means might be taken to protect th:. property of married women from profligate husbands. EDUCATION. Sir J. PAKINGTON begged to ask what course her Majesty's Government intended to purshe with respect to the vote for education The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was proposed to take all the other votes in the estimates before they proceeded with the vote for education. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Mr. DISRA.ELI said it would be convenient if' the Government would state how they intended to proceed with the business next week. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it the estimates were not concluded that evening they would be proceeded with on Monday, but if concluded then the Government would go on with the Police Bill. He begged to give notice that en Monday he should move that the house at its rising do adjourn till Thurs day. Mr. DISRAELI—Then the City of London Bill would certainly not come on on Monday. The CRANCELLOR of. the EXCHEQUER—Cer tainIy not. _ CAPITULATION OF KARS. Mr. DISRAELI said a motion stood on the paper for Thursday next, in the name of his learned friend (Ldr. Whiteside), with respect to the capitulation or Kara. lie understood it would he disagreeable to the Government to proceed with the motion on that day. Ile should, therefore, like to know what day would be agreeable to them to proceed with the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said Monday week instead of Thursday would suit. In answer to Sr J. PAKINGTON, The C ItiA.NCELLOR of . the EXCHEQUER said if th 3 Estimates were not concluded on Monday the Police Bill would be taken on Friday night. Mr.' PACKE asked if the Agricultural Statistics Bill would come on on Monday ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied in the negative. STEAM TO THE COLONIES. In reply to Mr. E. DENISON, ?Ir. WILSON Paid considerable progress had been made with this subject, and' the disposition seemed to be that the colonies themselves were not averse to contri bute towar,ls the expense of a monthly postal commu• nication. A circular had been addressed to all the nolo by Sir W. Denison, the Governor of Aus tralia, and to that circular favourable replies had been received from most of the colonies. When the Govern ment issued the Treasury minute it was unaware of those proceedings, and, Government lost no time in forming a scheme to effect the object in view. Agree ably to the minute the Treasury had issued tenders had been received, but the Government had not ac• cepted any of thorn, but they intended to issue fresh tenders, but no directions with re spect to the route to be taken ; that would be left etrtitely op en . A s soon as the Government received a tender tlrt they thought they would be justified in re ceiving? they would have no hesitation in doing so. Sir J. PATCINGTON begged to ask whether it vi•al intended to haVe direct communication with Australia irrespective of the Indian mails, and in first-class v, awls ? Mr. WILSON said they did not intend to stipulate in the advertisement they intended to issue any particu lar time or description of vessel. THE FIREWORKS IN HYDE PARK. Lord RAYNIIAI.`.I asked by whose directions and under whose superintendence the large building recently erected in Hyde Park had been constructed, and under what estimate it was proposed to defray the expenses ? Mr..AIONSELL replied that the structure referred to had been erected upon the authority of Lord Pan mar', with the concurrence of the Chief Commissioner of Works. (No, ro !) He believed that that very day Lord Pa.nmure and the Chief Commissioner went to the spot together in or d er to ascertain whether there was any ruode of avoiding some inconvenience anticipated from the temporary obritruction of one of the roads through the park, (Hear, hear.) With regard to this other part of the question, it had been arranged with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that an estimate should be prepared and presented to the House for defraying the cost of the building and other expenses of the like nature, If an estimate had been submitted beforehand the building could not have been completed in time for the purpose for which it was intended. (A laugh.) •Sir F. THESIGER—May we ask what that purpose lye " near, hear," and laughter.) Mr. MONSEL L —For fireworks. (" Oh, oh ! "'and loud lau.ghtvr.) Weur°4l9BnewlhKethNeOr.k asked the Chi e f C o m m i ss i oner o f ' e w . ; e a . : te u d n , de a r nd hi vi s il d e t t r i e le c r ti h o e n h t a n d at sa t ia li c e building h a d b een . tinned th e exp "3 ' 4 being paid out of the revenues of the Board of Works? Sir B. HALT:, replied that he had nothing wh a t ever to do with the cost o f the structure. He vi s ited th e spot that day with Lord Panraure, being anxious to see that the therowghlares in the Park were not interfered with, and he was confident that no i nconvenience would ar i se i n that respect. Colonel KNQX said the right hon. gentletnaa bad ndtanswered his question, namely, whether be sanctioned the erection of tEe bui:ding ? (Bear, h ear .) • Sir B. HALL—That was no part of my duty ; Y h ave nothing to do with sanctioning. the erection of the. Luld °(Cheers and laughter.) Mr. G. DUNDAS—It ha 3 been said that the struc. tare is intended for the display of tinworks. May I ask what the fireworks are for, land whether, as rep or t e d , they will cost 10 , 0001 . ? (Hear, bear.) The ORANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER—At the proper time full information of the details of the ex penditure will be given to the house in any form which the hon. gentleman may desire. (A laugh, and cries of "Bat what is it for ?) After a pause of some moments, Mr. G. DUNDAS rose and said that Lis question had tem of transportation. He believed that with all its errors, and with all its abuses, there was no system of punish ment which tended so much, or was so well calculated to give encouragement to substantial reform. I cannot help thinking that that original system of transportation— more especially that which was the most abused of all, viz., the silent system—though open to many objec tions, was too hastily abandoned ; and he thought a good deal of prejudice entered into the question. He agreed also with the system of transportation by which the convict was placed in an entirely new state of cir cumstances, in which he had the means of obtaining an honest livelihood amongst a free though sparse popula tion, which rendered his labour so valuable, in face, that he had no difficulty in maintaining himself in comfort. That was a position he thought which was most favour. able to the development of the reformatory system. Ho not only regretted that they had abandoned the silent system, but that transportation to any of our colonies was now an impossibility. It was for us now to consi der how we could best dispose of our convicts now that we could no longer place them amongst a free colonial population. The noble earl had referred to the advan tages of what, in the old days of transportation, was I known as the probation system, by which different stages were instituted, commencing with a period of extreme severity, which was relaxed in a variety of gradations ac cording to conduct, till ultimately a ticket of leave was granted, and the sentence was variously modified until he became afree man. There were great advantages in that sys tem. He entirely appreciated the advantages arising from the moral effect on the conduct of the prieoner,arisieig from the feeling of hope that by his own conduct he may be able to better his condition ; bat - , at the Caine time, that principle must be applied with extreme caution. Setting aside the question of deceit, the system might work un fairly in a variety of ways ; for instance, set a ma❑ to work who had been an accomplished housebreaker, at something which required great manual dexterity, and set another to the same work whose hands had done little but handle the plough, and who had committed some trifling offence, they would no doubt in this case put the comparatively innocent man to by far the se verer test, and he would be placed to a far greater dis advantage than the man who had merited the severer punishment. (Hear, hear.) The same injustice might arise out of the comparative strength or weakness of the prisoners. There must, therefore, be a very large amount of discretion left to the governors and superintendents of our prison:s. The present system did not involve a sufficient variety of gradations in relaxing the severity of punishments. The system was capable of many modifications, and there ought to be a greater variety in the degrees of punishment. He quite concur red with what had been said of the great advantage of having an admixture of a free population with convicts, and there was no doubt but the prosperity of many of their colonies was owing to convict labour ; but the cry which was raised, and justly raised, by the people of New South Wales against the whole of the convicts being sent to them, threw them all on Van Diemen's Land, and that at a time, too, when capital was dimi , niihed in consequence of the great losses which had been sustained. Under these circumstances the Government did what they could in making roads and clearing the country to remedy the evil, by employing the convicts on public works of this description ; but with ail this the complaint was, that the convicts remained in super abundance, and that the ticket-of-leave men there, as well as here, were in a worse position than those who were compulsorily employed. With respect to any new plan of settling a penal colony, he trusted the Govern ment would pause before they adopted any permanent plan. He concurred with much of what had been said on the subject, and believing that much a lvautage would be derived it the subject were referred to a select c )minittee, he should cordially support his noble friend who so ably brought it forward, if he thought proper to appoint one. THE SUN, LONDON. SATURDAY _EVENING, APRIL 19, 1856. not been answered. (Cheers.) Would no right hon. gentleman on the Treasury bench favour him with a reply ? (After another pause, during which the hon. member remained standing, he added), Still no answer. Ptrhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not be disinclined to afford us some information on the sub ject. 'What are the fireworks for ? (Cheers and laugh ter.) 'The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I was not aware that the hon. gentleman was serious in putting Lis question—(Cries of "Oh, oh !' and a laugh)—or would have answered it. If he seriously puts the ques tion with any doubt as to what the answer will be, I may state to him that the building has been erected in Hyde-park with a view to the celebration of peace. (Derisive cheers and laughter.) The subject then dropped. NAVAL REVIEW. Oa the motion for the adjournment of the house, Col. FRENCH asked a question relative to the faci lities for the members of the house seeing the naval re view. Mr. LINDSAY asked if the Perseverance placed at the disposal of the members of the house was the same ship that capsized last year, and if so he hoped the Ad miralty Would supply a sufficient number of life-beats. (Laughter.) Having spent so much money about the std realites of war he thought this show might have been dispensed with. Mr. LAYARD asked if it were true that a certain number of gun-boats had been constructed for this re• view ? Sir C. WOOD said that he thought it wouid not be ungratifying to the members of this house to see, and the country to know, how the Government were pre pared had the war continued, and before the ships were put out of commission that a review should take place. No gun-boats had been provided for this occasion. Thera must be some limits to the accommodation pro vided, and the precedent of the last review had been fol lowed ; for to provide accommodation for the wives and families of the members of that house it would be neces sary to employ the whole unemployed ships of the navy. It was different with the House of Lords, who were fewer in number. It was true the Perseverance bad been set apart for the members of this house, and if one part of the house took one side, and the other the other, there need be no fear , of her upsetting. (Laughter.) The accident to the ship alluded to was in dock, and since then she had been re ported ac seaworthy. THE ROAD THROUGH THE PARKS. In reply to a question, Sir B. HALL referred to the four proposed routes through the park. With regard to the opening of the east end of the Mall to Trafalgar-square or Charing-cross, that could not be carried out without a special act to pur chase then property ; and then a question arose whether it did not constitute part of the .functions of the Metropolitan Board of WorLe after leaving the park. The road from Pall-mall to Buckingham-gate he proposed to carry out and invite estimates for its construction. The next, affording accommodation to pedestrians over the water, he proposed also to carry out ; that from Waterloo-place to Pall-mall and Storey's-gate be rusideredtbe most useful, and afforded easy access for a great and increasing traffic to Storey's-gate. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that road-way would be ulti mately made, but he regretted to say there were at preisent some difficulties which prevented its being speedily carried out, owing to the leases existing with reference te the ground connected with Carlton-terrace. Already the Government paid the lessees of that 'property 45. per foot fur the ground aTording the footway over the steps by the Duke of York's Column. He thought that agree ment. gave the Government the right of way, but doubts were entertained respecting it. He hoped, however, when the leisees considered that the Queen had consented to allow cabs, &c., to pass un der her window that the lessees would make no further objections. He thought there would be room enough for vehicles to pass on each side of the Duke of York's Co lumn, and as there were objections to remove it, he should not propose a vote for that purpose. (sear, bear.) After some fuether consideration the subject dropped, Sir B. HALL having first stated that if the estimates he should present for this were passed, next week he would press forward the work, and speedily open the communication so much desired. The estimates for the foot-bridge would be 2,8981., and for the road from Pall mall through the German chapel to Buckingham-gate, about 21,0001. Mr. HA.D.FIELD moved as an amendment to the adjournment, that it should be to Thursday next, and not Monday next, as proposed by the Government. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER consi dered the house would not be justified in adjourning over Monday till Thursday. The original motion was ultimately agreed to. SUPPLY. On the motion that the Chairman leave the chair, Sir E. PERRY said that when Sir R. Peel proposed the income tax in 1842, he called attention in emphatic words to the large deficiency there was in the Indian re venue, to the danger that would accrue to this country if that difficulty were to become permanent. In 1834 all our territorial possessionsin India were the exclusive pro perty of the East India Company, and consequently all the burden of government, if the country were gUyerned at a loss, would fall upon that institution. Since then, the legielatura had thought fit to invest the whole of the property in the crown, and consequently, if it failed, all tile burden would fall upon the country. India paid to England by way of tribute about 3,000,000/. a year, but th it was expended in dividends on East Indiastock, in in terest on loans, in pensions to servants of the com pany;and in other ways. If, therefore, the revenues of India should becoine permanently embarrassed, it would be to English resources and not to India that they mast look. Now an Indian budget had a great peculiarity. Unlike the budget of this country, or of any other in the civilised world, an Indian budget was incapable of extension. Although the revenue might fall short no new tax could be im posed ; that, in a country where the people were so at tached .to the customs of their forefathers, would be simply impossible. Meanwhile many of the sources of revenue were very precarious. The land tax was a most imporVnt branch ; but there was a cry for its diminu tion from all parts of India where the ryotwarry system prevailed. Opium too was a source of income which was exposed to enormous fluctuations. One year it might pro duce a million and a halt; another, three millions ; and if China were to remove its prohibitions with regard to this article, the item might soon disappear altogether. ft became, therefore, very important that the house should give this subject their most serious consideration. Unfortunately, it was extremely difficult for people in England to ascertain what was the real condition of India. It must be remembered that all their informa tion was derived only from the British residents, and they had no clue whateverto the opinions of the,hundred millions of their fellow-subjects in India. There was, however, one reliable source of inforneation, and that was the public accounts. He was sorry to say that the accounts delivered last year were infinitely more nt.- favourable than he had seen for the last 25 years. La et year the President of the Board of Control stated that the deficit for the year ending April, 1855, amounted to two millions and a half ; and he (Sir E. Perry) had no ,doubt that it would this year be again upwards of two millions --a larger deficit than that which Sir R: Peel considered justified the house in laying on the income tax. In order that the house might be in a position beter to appreciate this evidence as to the condition of India he would compare the state of things during the last three years with what had been the case for the three years previous to the annexations which had latterly taken place. The revenue of India for the three years ending April,lB3B, averaged 14,575,240/. per annum.; and there was an average surplus of 1,156,6841. During the last three y ears ending April, 1855, th e revenue averaged 20,459,2411., being a total increase of nearly six millions, hut there had nevertheless been an average deficit of -1,387;866/. There bad thus been an average yearly loss, as compared with the three years before 1833, amount ing to '2,544,540/. The total deficit during the whole of Lord Dalhousie's tenure of office had been no less than 6,335,317/. The President of the Board of Control had last year endeavoured to account for the deficiency by referring it to the expenditure for public works ; but the true cause was to be found in the series of wars which had taken place and the annexations which bad been ef fected—operations which, he must say, appeared to him to be both unjust in principle and impolitic in practice. (Cheers.) In criticising the observations of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Smith), he hopei he should not be con.idered as reflecting upon - the right hon. gentleman. On the contrary, there was no one that had attended so much to a principle prominently put forward in these days, that, namely, of selecting the best men for- the best ;places. (Hear, bear.) But what was the fact with respect to these public works ? Thelight hon. gentleman had urged that Parliament was respon sible for the expenditure upon them. When Parlia ment was told of works that would yield 4q, 50, 60, and even 70 per cent., it was only natural that it should press tbb subject ,upon the East India Company • but had Parletm en t ever contemplated works which, like the two great rail ways of Bombay and Calcutta, only yielded oee per cent. ? (Hear, bear.) But did the public works, after all, account for the deficit At the expense of apme industry he had ascertained that the sum expended in 1854.5 was 1,648,460/., but from that a certain deduc tion must be made, because the company, like any other landlord, always had been obliged to spend a certain sum under that heade He found that in 1851-2 the sum so expended was 396,246/S; so that the extra- amount laid out upon public works in the year 1854-5 had only. been 1 ,252,1121., or not more than half the deficit. (Hear, hear.) He held in his hind a curious document, in which the expenses of all oar late acquisitione were set forth. He found that the revenue for Scinde last year was 254,5011., while the charges were 562,238/., showing thus a deficit of 307,7371. Sattara,-income, 255,0001. ; charges (civil only), 277,0341; deficlt, 22,0341. Punjaub, revenue, 956,250/. ; charges (Tech:ding only a portion of the military expenses), 1,015,400/. ; deficit, 59,1501. Burmah and Pegu showed a email profit, but the account did not include the mili tary charges. Nagpore, revenue, 438,840/. ; charges, 219,4451. ; surplus, 219,3951. ; but from this must be deducted the subsidy previously received from Nagpore, and that would only leave a surplus revenue of 100,8951.: The result of the whole account was to show a nett deficit on account of the annexed provinces amounting to 288,0001. But that did not include the tetra military charges. To arrive at some estimate of these, he had taken the military expenditure of the Year ending April, 1833, and c;iimpared it with that of 1852—a year of peace. The one item wzlia 6,725,9571., the ether 9,675,483/. ; so that the increased military charges on account of the new provinces must be presumed to have a mounted to no less than 2,949,526/. per annum. Mean) He wou l d now offer a few remarks on the jus tice ofthe poliCy which bad produced these results ; in doing which he was aware he should run counter to the generallyreceived opinion. It was often the habit of the public to take up views on Indian subjects with the enthusiasm of ignorance. Thus Lord Cornwallis at tempted to create a landed aristocracy, somewhat like that to which he had been accustomed at home. That was lauded at the time as one of the most consummate acts of statesmanship ; but what had been the testimony of Niebuhr ?—" It was the most disastrous though the most benevolent plan that had ever been introduced to ruin a country." (Hear, hear.) At another time there bad been a great desire to introduce into India our own revenue and judicial system. Indeed, Lord Minto had actually threatened the King of Oude with deposition unless be introduced that into his unhappy country. Yet since then one of the great est improvements had been to adopt a simple and expeditious process, which had long before been in use in India. So with regard to the ryotwarry system. They had all read in their youth with delight tbe charming pictures which Sir Thomas Munro had drawn of that system at its introduction; and yet it was now admitted by every one to be the greatest scourge to which India was subject. He (Sir E. Perry) had the highest admi ration for Lord Dalhousie's; great qualities. His spirit had never quailed before the great difficulties which had surrounded him ; and the preparations he had made to meet thrm deserved all praise, The noble lord's indomitable will, his acuteness of perception, and his inflexibility of purpose were high qualities ; but they were qualities of all others dangerous, when they were exercised with imperfect information, or in a spirit of haste. The hon. gentleman the member for Honiton (Sir .T. W. Hogg) had told the house that they must not take their views on the subject of Lord Dallaousie's policy from him (Sir E. Perry). He had, 'therefore, brought down with him some authorities to cor roborate the sentiments he had expressed on a former occasion. The first he would read proceeded from a man, the most competent of any that had arisen within the last hundred years to pronounce an opinion as to the manner in which they ought to deal with allied states. "I would sacrifice Gwalior," said the Duke of Wellington, "or any other portion of India ten times over in order to pre serve our character for keeping good faith." (Hear.) On another occasion that great man said, " The exten sion of our territory has been greater than needs." (Hear, hear.) To the like effect were the sentiments of Sir Thos. Munro, Sir John Malcolm, Mr. Mountetuart Elphinstone, Lord Metcalfe, Sir George Clark, General Lowe, and Lord Ellenborough, who all concurred in the importance of preserving the independence of the native principalities, e end denounced the annexation po licy. Lord Dalhousie himself, who arrived in India in January, 1848, before he had been seven months in the country, before lie could have gained any experience (being himself the youngest governor-general ever appointed), expressed a decided opinion on the pro priety of annexing. Sattara. When the Burmese war broke out, he (Sir .E. Perry), was in India.. He had no idea at the time that all sorts of etiquette would be broken through ; but he was now convinced that the annexation of Burnell was the settled intention of Lord Dalhousie. So many annexations had been attempted of late years that even the Court of Directors, in four instances, bad been constrained to refuse their sanction. In the case of Jedpoor and otter states, the failure of heirs had been alleged as the ground of annexation ; but ho positively denied that such was the case. The adopted heirs, by the law of the country, enjoyed all the rights of natural heirs in such cases. In reference to Oude, a different justification was alleged. *lt was said there was turbu lence in the state, and it was the duty of the paternal British Government to put it down. He denied not that misgovernment bad prevailed there ; the King of Oude was dissolnte, and much oppression had been practised in his dominions. But . could this justify an infringement of the national rights existing between independent state 3 ? In 1801, Lord Wellesley had annexed one half of Oude on exactly the same ground—the extortions and oppressions of the native Government. Historians had since canvassed this transaction, and they expressed doubts as to the statements on which the annexation of that slay was justified. Mr. H. R, Wilson, in his narra tive of the transaction, while admitting that great mis rule.and disorganisation prevailed in Oude, stated that the people were nevertheless prosperous, and that the English Government had no right to interfere teed dic tate to the Government of Oude what course should be pursued. As well might some other state, pleading the misrule and irregularities which prevailed in our own pro vinces, from Bengal to the very gates of Calcutta, insist on annexing those provinces, and putting an end to Bri tish Government. If there was misgovernment in the na. tive territories, it was owing to our interference. A few years ago Oude was I be garden of India; its revenues ex ceeded 3 millions but the appointment of a British resi dent there had caused all the mischief. There had been one brief period of 8 years during which Oude had been properly treated, and that was the most floui jelling period of its history. From the times of Burke till the present; Lucknow had been notorious for vice and immorality; it had been the black spot of the British dominions in India. Tilera were still seventy millions of natives and 200 native princes remaining to be absorbed, the princes trembling on their thrones in anticipation of a decree going forth for the annexation of their territories. Already the Indian press was beginning to hint at the annexation of the Nizain's territories, and others would follow. Ho had shown that the annexation system was unsound on financial grounds ' • and he hoped that, o n the higher ground of nat i ona l faith, we should be in duced to pause in this injurious career of territorial ag grandisement, which, if persisted in, would be the bane of British domination in India. Mr. MURROUGU said that the East India Govern. went, instead of being a paternal government, was one of the most insupportable that could be conceived, and he believed that if the present system was persisted in, the decrease which had been pointed out iu the revenues of India would become year bv year more remarkabl e . Indiaewas labouring under the want of a just admi nistration of the law and a fixity of tenure in the land, the evils arising from which affected th e p r i nce as we ll as the ryot. Te latter knew that if he increased his produce it would be seized by the revenue collector; and the prince knew that a well-organised system of govern ment would only excite the rapacity of the rulers of In dia. The cases of torture which had formerly been de nied, but which were now admitted, and the seizure of Oude, were illustrations of the policy of the Indian Go vernment, which did not stand alone. Take the case of the Rajeli of Courg. That piince had lent to the Indian Government half a million of money. A murder was committed in his dominions, and the Government made that a pretext for seizing his capital and domi nions, together with the bonds which showed that they were indebted to him. The Nagpore case was equally iniquitous ; whilst that of Mr. Dyco Sombre, whose will was now the subjectof judicial investigation, proved that the East India Company wererestrained by no scru ples when the acquisition of wealth was in view. Mr. V. SMITH understood that the question which had been raised by the hon. member for Devonport was not to have been brought forward this week, and stated that until this evening he had not the slightest idea of the line of argument which his bon. friend would take. It_ had been arranged that an evening should be set apart for what was celled the India budget, on which occasion the Minister for India would make a speech explanatory of tbe financial condition of India, and the question might then be fairly raised for diselassion. He trusted, therefore, that his hon. friend would not think that be was treating him with disrespect if he declined to follow him into the details of his statement. The only ground on which that statement could be justified at this period would have been delay on his (Mr. V. Smith's) part in the production of the accounts. So far from that being the case, he had sent out the resolution passed by the house last session, requiring a statement of Indian re 'venue te be merle up to the 30th day of April of the pre ceeding year, with an earnest request that the Govern ment in India would carry out that resolution. He was happy to add that the resolution of Parliament had been attended to, and that so me o f th e accounts b a d reac h e d - - this country already, whilst others would shortly arrive, so that he hoped to be enabled to make his financial statement earlier this year than had been done on any former occasion. It was exceedingly creditable to the Government in India, considering the immense extent o empire from whence these accounts had to be collected, that they had been forwarded so early. The hon. member (Sir, E. Perry) complained,of the expenditure on public works which were unremunerative, as the great cause of the deficiency in the revenue, and said that those works only produced one per cent. upon the outlay. If the hon. member included military works in the term public works, perhaps the statement as to the per centage might be correct, but if the works for irriga tion and other productive purposes were taken alone, the returns would be found in all cases very much higher. In a recent letter from Madras, we had a re turn of the public works in that Presidency, from which he found that the returns in a single year upon the ori ginal outlay were in one case 62i per cent., in another 1481 per cent., and in a third 313 per cent. Taking the non. gentleman's own calculation, if 1,200,0001. had been expended in these public works, that accounted for a very large, proportion of the deficiency of 2,500,0001. in the revenue of India, whilst the hon. gentleman said that the whole 'of the deficiency arose from carrying out au annexation policy. Sir E. PERRY—I did not say so. Sir V. SMITH—If the hen. member did not say the whole, his argument was to the effect that the greater part, at least, of the deficiency was caused by that po licy.. It was wrong to call annexation a policy, if by that term was meant a predetermination on the part of the Gove r nm en t and the Governer Gen era l i n I n di a to seize upon and annex whatever territories th ey cou ld . There was no such policy, and no such Governor-Ge neral. Each annexation arose out of some peculiar combination of circumstances and necessities, an d must t b e e s j t u i d he judged upon of any single annexation by its n its own merits. It was wro ng a l so to pecu niary results, because, if by such annexation we got rid of a turbulent and unruly neighbour, political and social results might outweigh any pecuniary loss. If the returns of the last three or four years alone were taken, it might be shown that the annexation of these territories were costly affairs. But was not a fair way of judging upon the subject to take such a short period. He, had no hesitation io prophesying that we should hereafter derive very considerable benefit from the annexation of Oude. The lion. gentleman had spoken of a deficit in the province of Scinde and'in other pro vinces, but the fact was that such deficits included the expenditure for peblie works. A return had been moved for with respect to the amount of Indian debt, and his right hon. friend the late President of the Board of Control, with grea t care , p re p are d an account which I would give to the house a better knowledge of our India revenues than it had yet received, and he thought the hon. gentleman (Sir E. Perry) would have done well to have acquainted himself with that account before bring. ing his motion before the house. Some observations had been made with reference to the increase of charges. He ' admitted there was a tendency in all distant Govern ments to increase charges, and that such was to some extent the case in India. In this country the expendi tsare of public money was guarded over by the House of Commons, and was infuanced by public opinion, but in India the only public opinion was the public opinion of the civil service, and it would b e su p er h uman t o i mag i ne that men in India, living in a limited :moiety, and in a confined atmosphere of public opinion, should set them selves steadily to the work of cutting down each other's fortunes. Economy in India would be a very difficult task to accomplish. If they looked at the outbreaks to which we were continually subjected in India it would he impossible to say that our military expenditure could be judiciously reduced. (Hear, hear.) They had there fore only the civil service to deal with ; and he must confess that he knew no reason why, with the easy c on munication between this country and India, the civil servants should be put upon a higher footing than those in the colony of Ceylon, or any other distant colony. That was a serious question ; but he thought, in this respect, they had something to look forward to in the way of reduction of expenditure. He believed, also, that there were taxes which they should be able to re duce. The only other subject he should mention was with regard to the question of annexation. He must say it was not a financial question, but a large national one. He should not enter into the subject further than to say that the moment the answer from the Marquis of Dalhousie arrived stating what had heen done at Oude, he (Mr. V. Smith) sent the whole of the papers to be printed ; and as so in as they were ready they would be Presented to the house. That showed there had been no delay on the part of the home Government ; on the con trary, they were anxious that the matter should not rest. When the papers were laid upon the table, for his part, he believed the reproach of the Goveinment would be " Why did you allow such a wretched and detestable state of things to exist so long on your frontiers?" He did not complain of any hon. gentleman calling attention to the affairs of India, but on the present occasion he thought the hon. gen den. a is speech was not an attack on annexation, but an attack on the Marquis of Da.lhousie's administration. He could only say with regard to that nobleman's government that it would be impossible to deny that his fame had been fairly earned as a good ad ministrator in India. He might say, when the hon. gen tleman talked of an increasing deficit, that upon the esti m ttes of this year their was a diminution of the deficit of upwards of 500,0001. He could now announce that the general deficit was only about 1,900,0001. Mr. OTWAY said the right hon. gentleman bad ad mitted that taxat.on in India had reached its limits. If such were the case, where were we to supply the deft ciency which had bean referred to. That deficiency inu,t inevitably fail upon this country, because the con nection between the finances of India and the finances of England was much greater than was generally supposed. The account of cash balances in India showed a defici ency between April, 1853, and April, 1855, of 6,599/ 18s. 91, He asked the right hon. gentleman to account for this deficiency occurring in the course of two years. He thought that it could not he accounted for by the ex penditure of pubic works in India. What did the right hon. hart. the First Lord of the Admiralty state the amount of public works in India to be ? In 1851, 400,0001. ; 1853, 700 0001. ; 1854, 802,009/. ; 1855, 850,000/. ; whilst Mr. Grant's exceeded his threefold. The statements of the latter were fallacious, no doubt, but he mentioned Mr. Grant's statement to show with what distrust such calculations from India must be re ceived. There could be no doubt that the revenue in India was annually declining, and the sources of revenue being dried up. It behoved the house to take care of the policy pursued in India, for eventually this house would be made responsible for that policy. The hon, gentle man then alluded t i coins of the various loans that had been contracted by India, showing that, except in small quantities, the East India Company could not obtain money. As to annexation, that question had not been discussed on the grounds on which it ought to be discussed—namely, high moral grounds. Would our conduct towards the King of Oude hold good in Europe ? No ; not for one moment. What would have been thought of a French Monarch who would attempt to dethrone an English ruler on account of his immorality ? Was the Shah of Persia to be dethroned on account of his immorality ? Surely such au argument would not be listened to. To supply a sinking treasury he believed to he the motive at the bottom of the annexa tion of Oude, instead of any supposed immorality on the part of its King. He had letters from Lucknow which I stated that general mourning was put on there when the -population understood that Oude was to be annexed ; that the people there tore their hair, and showed every symptom of grief. He trembled when he reflected upon the effects which might be produced upon the Indian army by this unwise and unjust policy. Oude bad been annexed in direct violation of treaty. The hon. gentle man then read the 7th article of the treaty between the British Government and the King of Oude in confirma tion of what he stated. He read of the treaty of 1847. He feared the subject would not be palatable to his hear ers, but the readers of the history of India knew that there hardly ever was a treaty with an Indian prince which had not been vio l ated by the British Government. Since our connection w.th Oude it had never ceased to decline. We were bound to show, as regarded annexation, that we were not actuated by improper or unju motives. Tne East India Government had borrowed from the King of Oude 4.730,000/., and we had paid back in cash only 1 781,0001. ; the rest was repaid by the cession of barren territory which we took from the Rajah of Nepaul. (The hon. gentleman read a letter from Nepaul in confirmation of this statement.) Was this conduct worthy of a great nation ? Even the barren land and wild jungle they were now about to wrest from him. He read lettersfroxn Luck no w which stated that the Sovereign of Nepaul was ready to assist the Ki ig of Oude against the annexation of that country, and that that step nad excited the greatest dis content, not only in Oude, but elsewhere in India. The principles which had been acted upon in India could not be applied to Europe; nor would they like to see them acted noon with regard to Persia. He had read statements in Gorman, Danish, and Italian new s p a p ers , an d i n a ll t h e English Government and the English people were held up to ridicule far the manner in which the Indian terri ritories were governed. He trusted the house would pause before they assented to the system of the whole sale annexation of the territories of India under the Go vernment of Lord Dalhousie. Sir J. W. HOGG said the hon. member who had just sat down had referred to the marvellous reduction of the balances in the Indian treasury. He said they had been 13 or 14 mil lions ; then that they went down fee 8 millions; and he seemed to think that there had been a wrongful appropriation of the cash balances in the treasury. Now, he would state the rea son why the cash balances so much decreased ; it was because the Indian Government received orders from the home autho rities to apply them to meet the expenses of the public works, and the sums which went to pay off the 5 per cent. loan under the extraordinary financial operations of Lord Dalhousie, which took effect when ho converted the 5 per cent, stock into 4 per cent., thereby saving the country half a million sterling a year. The hon. and learned gentleman below him (Sir E. Perry) stated that, however great Lord Dalhousie might have proved himself iu other respects, his financial ope rations had been a failure. This he (Sir J. W. Hogg)denied. He would now show what the present condition of India was, but first he would call the attention of the house to the notice ca did lled to hwa t h h to e hua affair s s t house, much o f of motion of the hon. and learned memb er f or D evonport (Sir Ee Perry). He (Sir J. W. Hogg) was one of th ose w h o anxi ously hoped both u th aot prevailed etvet of attention t; would houseou still,l d he and in its h belnciia,as misapprehension atten tion to be called in the manner in which the boo, and learned gentleman had spoken to-night —going through all matters, political, civil, and indite y. Th e d ec l ama t ory style of the hon, and learned member was not the way in which ho ought to have called the attention of the house to Indian sub jects ; but if there was any specific acts to be complained of, why did lie not move for the papers, and have the docu ments placed upon the table, so that all hon. members might be informed of those complaints, and be able to speak upon them. He would put it to the hoarse whether any man, on reading the notice of motion, could have supposed that the hon. and learned member would have taken the course he did to-night ?Ho submitted that a desultory debate upon Indian finance could only mislead the house ; but he would now show why in some years there had been a surplus, and in some years a deficit, During the last six years there had been a surplus in the first four, and a deficit iu the last two years. He could not compare three years with three years, but he would give the accounts of the three years of surplus, and would give an average of expenditure miler each sepa rate head, and then ho would do the same with regard to the two years of deficit, which lie admitted had been correctly stated. During the three years of ]B5l, 1852, and 1853, the average of the land revenue of India was 15,506,045/., and in the two years of 1853-4 cud 1854-5, it was ;5,218,7061. showing an average decrease of 257,339/. Under the head of customs' receipts, the average revenue during the three years mentioned was 844,7411.—showing under this head an in crease of 22,6481. The next head of revenue was that of salt. The average of the three years was 1,381,7131., and for the last two years it was 1,424,873'., showing an increase of 43,160/. Then, with regard to opium. The revenue of the first three years was 3,199,400/., and during the last two years it was 3,152,5521,, showing a decrease under this head of 46,848/. He had given the receipts of revenue, and now he would combine the results, -There was a small increase under two heads, and a considerable decrease under the others. Then, deducting the increase from the decrease, it left a net decrease of revenue amounting to 238,3791. Now, he came to the charges during the first three years, and they amounted to 685,029/., and during the last two years they were 914,9 791., showing_ aa.increase of 229,887/. Under the next head, of marine and ludian navy, it would be found that during the first three years the charges were 317,985/ , and durine the last two years they were 391,82 g., showing an increase of 4'4,54!1, Then came the ordinary military charges; and these, during the first three years, amount° to 10,151,2351., and during the last two years 111,883,6021., showing an increase under this head of rro less a sum than 732,367/ Under the head of extraordinary mili tary charges, it would be found that, duri tg the first three years, they were 380,1121., and during the last two years 8 ' , 8,2951., showing an increase of 472,183/. Then as to in terest, the average amount paid for the first three years was 1,95,99;1., and the amount paid for the last two years was 1,934,270/., showing a decrease in payment of interest of 22,7231. Now, if the house combined the result of these statements, they would have an average for civil charges, marine and navy, and military, ordinary and extraordinary, charges of 1,478,278/ s , from which they must deduct 25,723/. saved in the payment of interest, and the total charges left would be 1,455,855/. The next charge was for public works, which included all repairs, roads, barracks, and everything which came within these terms. During the first three years the sum expended was 421,5911., and during the last two years it was 1,244,667/ e showing an increase of 823,1261 Now, if they combined the whole, the decrease of revenue, and the increase in charges, under all heads, the amount a deficit would be 2,517,016/. He had shown how much of this arose from loss'inineorne, and how much from increased charges ; anal the question was, how much of the deficit could be considered of a permanent and how much of a temporary character. The land tax had slightly decreased iu Bengal, but it had largely decreased in Madras, from two years of drought, but it would not be perpetual. As to the de crease under the head of opium, he would not pretend to speak . — he must be a bold man who di l. In some years the revenue was large, and in others small, but should the • internal affairs of China be::eme more settled the revenue might be increased. From the extra ordinary operations in finance of Lord Dalhousie there was a saving now of 22,7231., but next year, in interest alone, there would be a saving of half a million. The excess of mili tary charges was great, but it was the opinion of Lord Dal housie that it might be reduced. Almost on every occasion of the appointment of a native official, xis allowance was in creased; and with great benefit to the public service. Among those items which had increased the expenditure, he wished to call attention to the enormous sums spent on military bar racks for the benefit of the European troops, The house, to), Would boar in mind a scheme of education for India which had been laid on the table, the cost of carrying out which was another ingredient of the increase. If they put together these different causes, they would find that they caused a de crease to the extent if 1,120,000/. With regard to the obser vation of the hen. and learned member for Devonport, that English capitalists were deterred from embarking theirmoney in Indian undertakings by the policy of the East India Com pany, he seemed to forget that British capitalists were most reluctant to let their money out of their sight. The hon. and learned member had referred to the case of the two great Indian trunk lines as failures, because, with thirty four miles opened, they were on , y paying 9ne per cent. ; but who ever thought , of a bit of a railway paying. It could not be expected that they would pay while they ran only into the jungle, and before their termini were connected. Now, with respect to both these undertakings, the East India Company was most anxious to render them productive, and had raised money by a guarantee of 5 per cent, to promote_ them. They had tried to get capitalists to advance their, money at a smaller guarantee, but without effect, and that was a proof that they were not quite so willing as the hon. and learned member had represented them to be, to embark in Indian enterprises. A railway from Calcutta to the Panjaub would be of the greatest national importance, especially when combined with th e electric telegraph, of which Dr. O'Shaugh nessy, a name never to be mentioned without respect, had already laid down in India 3,500 miles. The hon. and learned member, leaving finance and war, took up his favourite topics —annexation and adoption —and he (Sir J. Hogg) should have been happy if he had fixed on any particular case, and asked the opinion of the house as to its just ce, its propriety, and expediency. The hon. and learned gentleman had adverted to the opinion of Lord Dalhousie, but he had not read the whole of what that noble lord had said on the subject, Who laid it down that, in the event of the failure of heirs direct, and other contingencies, Government was bound to extend the benefit of its administration, and tha:, a prince or chief of a feudatory state was not at liberty to adopt au heir without the consent of the lord paramount. Hon. members were much in the habit of complaining that princes who had, through a long succession of ancestors, ruled over the states of India, were deprived of their territories ; but those ideas of ancient family were purely ideal, for, with the exception of the rajpoots, there was not in India a sovereignty older than their own. The hon. member for Bridport bad alluded to the case of Nan pore. Now, in that State, not only was there a lapse, by reF - son of the failure of direct heirs male, but there was not a single heir in existence. The East India Company had twice constituted that State, and the hon. gentleman could hardly think that they ought to de so a third time. Did the house know what would be the consequences of their doing so ? The prince, or whoever they might set up, would receive the whole of the revenue of the territory, while Great Britain would have to defend him in the exercise of his rule. Well, then, they had made these annexations, and he should like to know if the undoes were anywhere so happy as under the rule of the British Government. (Hear, hear.) An Hox. MEMBER intimated his dissent. Sir J. HOGG was surprised at that, for it was the first time he bad ever heard it questioned that the Hindoos enjoyed more happiness under the rale of Great Britain than under that of their native princes. He had now endeavoured to reply to the hon. and learned gentleman, a task he had un dertaken to do without the slightest preparation, as he had not expected that those matters would be at all gone into, and in doing so he had stated nothing which he had not documents there to prove, for he thought that, where he could not speak with precision, it was much better for him to hold his tongue. With regard to the case of Oude, he (Sir J. Hogg) hoped that it would be made the subject of a separate discussion, for it would be made manifest from the evidence collected by Col. Shereman and Col. Outram, that Government had no other course to follow than what they had done, and that if they were to be blamed at all it was not for having sooner annexed it. The hon. member for Devouport (Sir E. Perry) had cited the authority of Sir J Malcolm, who supported his views; but what were the principles upon which he proceeded? He said. " ion% take a lapse ; it is good policy to have the native States interspersed with yours, for while they offer a good opportunity for disposing of your spirits, they show the superiority of British over native rule." The hon member bad also relied upon the authority of Sir T. Munro, as one of the greatest men upon Indian affairs; but he was the very man who had introduced the ryotwarry system which had been so strongly condemned. He (Sir J. Hogg) hoped that an improvement would be effected in the tenure of land in Madras, and a reduction in the taxes, by bringing into cul tivation a greater portion of the lands, for he understood that at the present time three-fourths of the land in Madras was uncultivated, With regard to the Marquis of Dalhousie —whose apologist ho had always been, and would continue to be—who was about to return to his native land, after many years of most arduous service, having left India amid all tho expressions of gratitude and honour which the people of India could show, when he came—he trusted not broken in spirit, though be grieved to say shattered in con stitution—he hoped that he would not be greeted with many salutations like that which had come from the hon. member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry), but that by that house and by the country his administration would be regarded as honour able to himself and honourable to his Sovereign, and as tend ing to the advancement and prosperity of that country, to whose resources he had so ably administered. (Hear.) After a few words from Mr. PHILLIMORE, the subject dropped. THE PURCHASE OF PENSIONS. Sir F. BARING said that he wished to ask a question with regard to an account which had been placed upon the table. It appeared from that account that amongst the sums issued there was a sum of 213,00. 11. for the redemption of the here ditary debt. He should be glad to receive some explanation on this point. Mr. WILSON said that the item referred to by his right hon. friend had relation to two hereditary pensions which had been purchased for the sum of 213,0001. One was a pen sion of the Duke of Grafton, charged upon the excise, of 7,1321. 12s. a-year, which had been purchased for the sum of 193,777/. ; and the other was part of the Schomberg pension, amounting to 7201., which had been purchased for the sum of 17,400!. In 1825 a treasury minute was passed, setting forth the propriety of purchasing all hereditary pensions; and in pursuance of that minute a pension belonging to Lord Mel bourne, chargeable upon the Excise, and paid out of the reve nues of that department on their way to the Exchequer, was purchased in 1826. In 1853 the then Chancellor of the Ex chequer explained to the house, when a bill for removing cer tain charges from the Consolidated Fund to the annual esti mates was under consideration, that he did not propose so to remove the charges for hereditary pensions, because it had lately been deter Wined that they should be redeemed, and, in point of fact, that' they we r e i n process o f being purchased at that time. In the same year two pensions belonging is Lord Cowper (as we understood), one chargeable upon the Excise, and the other upon the Post-office, were purchased 'and paid for, as in all forme r cases, ou t o f the gross revenues of the departments upon which they were charged. At that time the net revenues of depart. ments were alone returned to and recognised by Parlia ment. A further purchase was made in the following year, and the two pensions to which he referred at the begin ning of his statement were redeemed in the year ending March last. Those penSions were paid for, according to pFe• cedent, out of the gross revenues of the departments upon which they were charged ; but it was thought, seeing that Parliament now dealt with gross revenues, that it would be better to give the gross incomes of the departments, and charge the purchase-money of the pensions as a separate item in the accounts. The only difference, therefore, was, that whereas in former cases Parliament had no cognizance of the redemption of pensions, the net revenues alone being returned, in the present instance the gross revenues of he departments were laid before the house, and the purchase-money debited in the accounts. The transaction was strictly in keeping with all the precedents, and the house would agree with him that it was extremely desirable to get rid of hereditary p en . sions, by redeeming them whenever opportunities occurred for doing so on favourable terms. Mr. WILLIAMS said he must reprehend the course which the Government had taken, for the transaction had in no way been brought -under the cognisance of the house. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the course of the-Government in this respect had only been in ac cordance with that which bad been adopted, in reference to other pensions similarly situated, at former times. Mr. DISRAELI said that he was unable to understand the reasons which rendered it expedient for the public that these hereditary pensions should he purchased in this manner. It might, no doubt, be for the advantage of the persons who held the pensions, but he could not see how it would benefit the public. The holders of these pensions might relinquish them—indeed there had been instances of that kind—and they might become so rich or so patriotic as voluntarily to give them up ; but if the house established the principle of giving full value, he thought that it would be taking a course most advantageous to the holders, but by no means advanta geous to the public. (Hear, hear ) MONUMENT TO THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON AT ST. PAUL'S. Lord CHELSE k said that he wished to ask the Chief Com • missioner of Works whether any steps had been taken with a view to the erection of a public monument to the memory of the late Duke of Wellington in St. Paul's Cathedral, and if not, what were the inte:itions of her Majesty's Government on the subject. Notwithstanding the stirring events which had recently occurred, the people of this country would be justly charged with fickleness if all the heart-felt grief of millions had been expended on the gorgeous co, emony of that day on which the remains of that mighty man had been con veyed to the tomb. He did not desire to dictate to the house, but his object would be gained if th e r i g ht l ion. gentleman would admit that it was fitting to raise some lasting monu ment to the memory of one of the best public servants this country ever bad, and the most illustrious of her heroes, who benefitted his country by leading her armies-in war, and con ducting her councils in peace. He , concluded by asking Sir B. Hall whether any steps had been taken with the view to the erection of a public monument to the memory of the late Duke of Wellington in St. Paul's Cathedral ; and, if not, what were the intentions of her Majesty's Government on this subject? Sir B; HALL, in reply to these two questions, said, in No vember, 1854, his predecessor, Sir W. Molesworth, acting under the advice of the President of the Royal Academy, in- vited four gentlemen to send in desigiis for a monumentto be erected in St. Paul's Cathedral. These four gentlemen w ere Baron Marochetti, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Gibson, and Mr. Foley. Baron Marochetti and Mr. Gibson declined to compete. M r . Bailey and Mr. Foley sent in designs, of which his predeces sor could not approve. He (Sir B Hall) succeeded to the office he now held immediately after that. Ho asked to see the models of these gentlemen, and ho entirely concurred in the view of Sir W. Molcsworth. From that time to this no steps had been taken, for the simple reason that no money had nOotohte. , year was vote dlBs 2 been voted by Parliamentfor t the purpose. b u a rp o o u s t e. Bo l , t a o la d i e .g fi e a s y um the xpofonioennesye amountings cf the fune ra l o f t e late Duke of Wel lington. Of that sum, about 24,886/. remained in hand, after defraying all the expenses of that funeral. Taere. might be a trifle still unpaid of some 5001. in elation to the tomb in the crypt of St. Paul's, but altoget'ier there was nearly 25,0001. remaining over. He understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to .move the house for a vote of money for the erection of a monument to the late Duke of Welling ton. If the conducting of that business should be placed under his control, he should think it his duty to call upon, not four gentlemen, but on the highest artists in this country, to send in designs, that we might have a monument worthy of the memory of that great man whom we all desired to honour. Col. BOLDER() said he should never raise his voice a gainst all , vote for such a purpose; but what the house must have was the designs, before they were decided upon for execution. He understood that Sir W. Molesworth had ved invited the fou r gen tl emen t o com p e t e for a mon umen t to be erected at an expense of 5 , 0001. When he disapp of the desi gns, b ecause they did no t em b race hi s v i ews, the two gentl emen as k e d to b e a ll owe d t o com p e t e again, disapproves and to be told his views. However, he refused to allow that, and paid them 1501. each, which they accepted unde r protest. He hoped, now, that the fleld would be thrown open, not only to this country, but to Europe ; and he had no doubt that would please Mr. Bailey and Mr Foley all the more for their works *ere the admiration not only of this country, but of Europe. SUPPLY. The holm then went into a committee of supply, On the vote of 39,0541. for the Protestant ministers in Ire land, ,31; PELLATT protested against such a vote altogether, as being justified by no principle —seeing that the recipients were not connected with the Established Clinrch. He trusted the house would not consent to the vote. Mr. supported the rote on the ground that it wa3 given originally in lieu of tithes, of which the ministers had been u justly deprived. Sir J: FaZGERALD condemued tilt; incunsistency of the house in withholding the grant to Maynooth, ana yet our porting a vote for the maintenance of the Presbyterian Church. Mr. A. BLACK considered that the house would be open to the charge of partiality in making this grant, and with' drawing the grant to Maynooth. After a few words from Mr. HADFIELD, who spok e amidst loud and continuous cries for a division, and , was, consequently, almost inaudible in the gallery, The committee divided— For the ameaument Against it Majority against the amendment ---170 On the question that the vote be agreed to, Mr. HADFIELD said their cause was growing, and he hoped they would by and bye put an eud to these exaction& The Regium Danum, to a great extent owed its support to the Catholics, and that, too, notwithstanding the bitter hos. tility of Protestants to a vote for the support of the educs' tion of their priests. The hon. gentleman, after some furthe r remarks, and stating that the vote was in itself a piece of bold effrontery, proposed to reduce it by 3,0971. The committee divided— For the amendment 39 Against it ll4 Majority Mr. KERSHAW moved that the sum of 5001 for agout i salaries and allowances be struck out of the vote, and also tbe sum of 1521. 2s. Bd. for the payment of clerks of synods. Mr. HADFIELD supported the amendment for reducing the vote. The committee divided— For the amendment 4O Against Majority ... The CHAIRMAN th en pu t th e orig i nal motion. 158 Mr. F. CROSSLEY objected to it, as involving a new Pr in. ciple, and to give hon. members an opp,rtunity of speaking on it, moved, as an amendment, that the Chairman rePs 4 progress. - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the hos, member would withdraw hi s amen d ment, considering tbs, important business had prevented the house going into CO . mittee of supply until a late hour. The committee then divided— For the amendment l6 Against it Majority —195 Mr. BARNES moved (amid load cries of "Divide ") the the vote be reduced by 3461. 3s. 4d.—the allowance for th e m niscers for new congregations. After a few words from Mr. KIRK and Mr. HADFIELO O the votes were agreed to without a division. The vote for 6,062/. for charitable allowances in 111)12 ,14 was agreed to. Sir S. NORTHCOTE wished to know whether the edeclo tion estimates would be proceeded with on Monday. ~_, Mr. WILSON s a id th a t th e Br i tish Museum estimair' would be taken first, then the estimate No. 7, and then 00 other estimates would be proceeded with, including those for education. - •,- - The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtaine d leave to sit again. The house then resumed. REFORIIATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILE This bill was committed pro, forma, in order to the amend• ments being printed. RETURNS. Mr. MURROUGII, in moving for a return of the last e isting letters patent issued to persons acting as principal Se e : retaries of State, said h e did so b ecause he believed that ST'!" of the Ministers of State had evaded the stamp duty of 200• on each of those letters patent. Lord J. Russell had been the, first to make this evasion, and he believed the return ivonle show that Lord 3falmesbury was the present existing Sale; tary. of State, no others h av i ng : t a k en out the letters P it° since his time.—Agreed to. NATIONAL GALLERY. Mr. WILSON obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend tho powers of the trustees and directors of the National Gallery and to authorise the sale of works of art belonging to the public. The house then adjourned at a quarter-past one o'clock. Country lYiariteb,. LIVERPOOL—Aran 18. A good attendance of millers this morning. Most of them were inquirers rather than buyers, wanting to kneg c how the future course of the trade may be: Wheat, float and other articles of the corn trade, excepting Indian corn were somewhat easier, and a moderate business done' for consumption. Indian corn firm, at an advance of-6d Per qr. over the low p r i ces o f Tuesday. WAKEFIELD --APRIL IS. We have a fair show of wheat. The inactive state o the flour trade tends to depress the market, and prizes all fully is per qr. lower this week for even the best sorts; s' this decline, however, there is more disposition to puf a chase. Barley is scarce, and brings full prices. There is no variation in oats or shelling. Beans still decline 111 value. No alteration in other articles. EXETER —Arum 18. CORN.—In our market wheat may be quoted from 8s 34 „, to 8s 9d. Malti ng b ar l ey , 4 s 6d to 5s 6d ; grinding do.r „v; Od to Os Od. Oats, 3 s Od t o 3 s 6d . Beans, Oa 04 to v" Od. Peas, ON Od to 00s Od. FLOUR. —Fine, 49s Ud to 53a Od ; seconds, 47s 04 to 4 84 Od per sack. CATTLE....‘ Fat oeef was sold at from 9s 94 to lOs .6d pe t score ; fat calves, 54d to 6d per lb ; ba.rrenners, 6s to 6s per score ; cows and calves, 121. to 171. ; butchers calves, —to —d per lb., rearing calves —s to a each' Sheep, ewes and l am b s , 11. 14s to 21. 5s per co u pl e; ewe s. tgi to Odd ; wethers, bid to 6d ; lambs, 11 La each. rig* large size, 453 to sos ; second size, 24s to 30s ; 160 to 203 ; suck ers , 6 s t o 12 s. Rough fat, n d per lb• Pork carcases from lOs Od to Us Od per score. BRISTOL SUGAR —APRIL 18. The market still wore a firmer aspect, and were ay; stocks heavier a fair business might be done. Refiner', goods in st e ady d eman d, a t a b out late prices. Rums sell only in. retail. SEABORNE MA rzs. (N signifies that the mans aro Bent from the General Post ofro B by the night—and M by the morning —despatch.) -- L. g COUNTRLEE I . in General Poet- Port due 13 O aYwhen made a t From , :a I wnec 1- . Office, London.* Dispatcho.. E no ,,aw.i. A.merica(byisrit.Ttack. .2 , every Friday Liver Tool ... April 23 , ttnericP.tby United !i ts ~ packet) .........ls •• •••• .. Liverpool ~I . ' America (by U. State 3 packet) ..-. „ „„..N . • . • lastalia (via South- .•• • • - SouthamptoLl i ampton) ..... le ••••• •• • • Southamptc,• Jitto (via Marseilles) N , Ditto (via Cape of Good I 1301x1)•• •• •• ••• ••11 . •• •• • ' Africa (West Coast) ....3 23d of the month .plymn ut n ..; t rrneettila - V0zandria..........1‘ 8 ,9, 24, & 30 of m.Dover .... L 41er5tndria..........34 4th Se 20th of MOri.iSouthamptor.: Bahamas ....... ....a? 17th of the monti Southamptcnl 3elgium ...........N Daily•• •••••• • • • - Dover ..... Daily arazi".............m 9th of the mouth.. Southamptm, May 16. e nen , A jr „ ........m 9th of the month.. Southampton '3l ay 16 (Jape of Good Hope —3 • ' ' Various port Uncertain Cape of Good Ilope ..3 Japo de Verde ...... Is 9 th of the month S ont h amptor , Ceylon (sea India) . , . • Ceylon ..............3 . Channel 151e5.... ...1\ MOn.,Wed.,&Frl.4. BOnthampto Ta.Th,gat .lhili.. . ............t; 2d & 17th of mont , iSouthainpto , China .... .. . Once a month ....I lApril 20 4th B;2oth of Mon Southampton Constantinople ..„ ~ 1 , 8,13,18,23,5e28 of t - Dover ...... - Twice daily .... Dover .... Twicedailf Cont. s 3l, t t a n o[ s t F Pi 18 India). .1 .. ,Ik . • ‘ N . France ........ m& , Twice dais y• . Dover .... Twicedaili gthraltar .... ... :.. M 4 , 7 , 17 . 2 0.27 afek South,mpton Greece (seo India) . Greytown .......... M 2nd & 17th of m on S out b amptur, aamburgh ..........NlTuesdaY & Friday London ..... savannah .......... m 2nd of the monti Southamptot- May 2 aolla aondurts ......... m D l7 ai ta ly ;; 1 . 1:3 ........ So po u v t e h r am ... Plo . n I Daily iitholmo nd •• .• • • •. • . ~ Bs 4th k 20th of m on. Plymouth .. 4 & 20 nit 1 India (vlaSouthampt.)M 9th& 25th of mo n th Dover ..... India (via Marseilles)3l IT e a l an uin d i t e . g . ( : . e . e .m ln & di l, Twice 7 I ,7, & 27 of m oo D0ver.....: daily ...... D o ty h ead .. Twlcedalli w 4r...iiiii rr .i.................................... 36 : 2 7 93 i d t oo l i m , t Bc hone 2 t 7 hm o o. f n. T .t : 80148080avuuttampettrphhania:olpputoto..:: April l i 2 2 6 6 Malta (See India) watt , ............ 3. 8 .19. &28 of mon. Dover ..... —4, 20 mo. Mauritius (see India) ~,,,,,,,,I ns ..... " .. ~ 1, , 14th of the month g e 2, o ............ m 2nd of the month , s thl s th 2s thottnon.lDover ...... Naples . .... ......../ stillbtlarithofmon. Dover ...... I,T e „ ranacia ...... 3 , 21 & 17th of month ISouthamptor fthl7th27thoftnon. SoutharaptOn Kew Ze11and........ „ BY Private slip .. Various port ;Uncertain Papal States ...... —1 Peninsula ...........5. dy private ship... Various ports , Uneertahl earn . ... .... .., 4d k 27th of MOD. Southampton 3Prt Nati; ...........'3 -oh IStll2sthtymon, Dever ...... 161 7 Z• •• •• •• •••• • • } ith f6t h 2s tholenon. Dover ...... Tuscan •• •• •• •• •• • • .I , 2 8& 17th otniontl southarepter 1 &16 mon Veztezuels ........ .. 3 Van Diem ett's &wad (se iststralla) .• •• •• • - war t•” 440. , 2d& 17t1101 mom , Sonthamm...,l. a —.... [Southampton I SG I A !rico 4d& 17th ot mom, , Whenarly of these date s fall on a Sunday, the mac. .+1 ' te' spatched on the following day, with the exception of the In :u. (. a Eoathampton), and the Malta, both of which will be desp atch 4 , 1 (1 , a preceding day. MORTALITY OCCASIONED BY WAN.—A. paper, entitled as follows, will b e read before the Statistical Society on Monday evening next, the 21st inst. :—" On the Morta lity arising .front Military Operations." By W. 'l3- Hodge, Esq., actuary. BIRTHS. OP d SON. On the 17th i ns t. , at Twickenham, the wife of Alfred Clark, Esq. On the 15th inst., at Eddisbury Lodge, West Derby, near Liverpool, Mrs. Pierre Mussabini. JP A nAUGHTXR. On the 16th inst., Mrs. M. Neumann, of 17, Compton street east, Regent-square. On the 17th inst., at Bedford, the lady of Captain A.stell. MARRIB D. On the 17th inst., at St. Pancras, William De annoy, Esq.. Glocester-place, Portman-square, to Louise Eliza English. daughter of Edward English, Esq., Guildford betorneee,t, Williamßtlssel iv.frd l-squraereo, youngest. On the 15th inst., at the Church of St. Mark, Maryle mon of Charles James Major, Esq., to Mary, eldest daughter of the late Sir Thos. Noon Talfourd. lint., one.of the Justiega of her Majesty's Court of Common Pleas. DIED. On the 16th inet., at 1, Harewood-street, the Rev. IL Walpole' 8.D., for 28 year s rec t or of the district of Christ Church, St. Marylebone, aged 75. On the 15th inst., at 13romsgrove, Charles Creswell, Esq., late of Barnsley-ball, aged 84. On the 14th inst , at Ampton Rectory, Bury St. Ed mund's, Thos. Mist, Esq., of Bradford, near Taunton, Mid dlesex, aged 57. On the 13th inst., at Greenside, near Kendal Samuel Holker Haslam, Esq., aged 60. On the 12th inst., at Clifton, Dr. J. M. Brander, of the Bengal Medical Service, aged 61. On the 17th inst., Mary Ann, wife of S. H. Cullum, Esq , of Finehley, aged 76. On the 28th ult., George Fyler, Esq., of 11, Southwick palace, Hyde-park, and the T emp l e, London, barrister-at l. LONDON: Printed and Published by AiITRDO Yft&Th W, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sus. Office, o. 114 Strand, in the Precin c t of the IC Savoy, in the oeetety • Niddleeez, Saturday, April 19, 1856. Or' Vi r eit6i A Sp' bridge SOUTE and Wi ItAILNN rolkest, r, And an , :ion!, . _ tl for tics o Aegent• bridge 'I April er The have th for the L —FE This Scale of fully ai 1. 0 and Fl, 2. A and Th 3. A Arsatei llth, a Th• of Wet, held as permit, reagnifi and W: IV.- I. n Ma.tion Wate _ . for en the b( will b Cultm state, the el same is cot to in most Aeeo Fairs been Nava 10th roux cent( elega Th plete Opel' be July brat, to N and also due ma Co al% eir