The Sun. — London, England, 1825-05-18 00:00:00

appeared from the- testimotirof a distinguished Prelate, that the present period was peculiarly , favourable to Protestantism. Why thee , persist in the wile system ofhexclitsion which was adopted 'when Protestantism: had:much - to 'fear ? The Right Res.:' Prelate: who spoke - last had . dwelt in . generals, and avoided'facts. One only did lie condescend to notice, and that was the Bulls which were sent over- to Ireland and Fngland to depose George 11. He admitted; howeirer, that the Roman Catholics had not deposed . that -- 111canarch--(Hear !)-and this proved the proposition - of Dr. Doyle,: that there was a distinct line between the spiritual and temporal power of the Popes. It was not fair to select a single tenet from the Catholic faith, construe thee tenet in a particular way, and then draw a par tial ihteiferente from it. But in estimating the character of the Catholleth, appeals had been made to early-.times and not- to the existing world,, just as absurdly as if-a Lecturer on science were not to consider - the' discoveries of modern times; referred to the Thunders' of the: Royal Society and Vol. I. : of their Trausactiops. Let the Rights Reverend Bench opposite, leave for a moment the . precincts of ihe Bodleian and Sion Libraries,' let them quit BellarMine' and the Controversionalists, and look at the world as it is, and not as it was.-{ - fear'!)-He Would - refer to the 'Catholics in - Eutope and America: In the latter Republic there was one State eminently Catholic, and its Constitution was More favourable to toleration than that of any of the other Federal States. The consigtien'eeeof the noneicclusion • system was a decrease of the Catholics, and an increase , of - the Protestants.' .Let them look to the monarchies Of the old world, Prussia, Hanover, and Denmark, and there also the Catholics were tolerant Vehen.they had power, and made no efforts to overturn other churches. But, said some Noble Lords, •it is proper to admit Catholics to a fair-share in the Constitution in Despotisms; but -not in-free Governments like .our own. • This was the Most ridiculous ar gu.ment in the world, and the most derogatory to our na tional charecter. It was on the, very - ground of - our. free COnititution that he supported the Catholic Cialnis. lie : knew no better: way to serve the State and the.Churele than by hone -suiting the just . wishes .and giving free . scope to the honest effints of every . subject.- He admitted there were many and great peejudices amongst the lower classes, and even amongst The Clergy, (who, however, were as fallible or even snore fallible than others) on this subject. Those prejudices should be removed, and - the - best - to do it was by etating facts. Many years ago, - when it was proposed by the. Limon with Scotland to .add sixteen Scotch 'Peers to the represeri aation, the Right - Reierend Bench opposite contended that latch a meesute would be fatal to the Church of England. :fhey quoted the documents of the •Scotch Kirk to shew the hostility of 'that Kirk to our Church. Bat what was the 'fact ? Singularly - enough,' those sixteen Peers had always been 'found voting with the Right Reh . Bench:-(Hear, 'hear !)-- Vet the r prophecies of those times were quite de well founded itnY'broaelied 'in these days.' 'So the - eaee of the Sacre 'mental Tear in Ireland. Even Dean Swift said it would be injurious to the Cherch of England by. raising the Presbyte rians above it. Yet _the fact was not so: 'The Prerbyterietii" had not increased, whilst the Catholics; whom it was intended to repress ' had infinitely augmented in numbers. Anothe r . case was that of Wheri it - was - proposed early in the reign of George 111. to admit them to a full share of the civil rights, it reverend Divitiecasserfed in prime - hat the 'Ca nettle would throw themselves into the arms of France, and break their allegiance to Great Britain. On• the:contrary, the Protestant States rebelled, and Canada remained firm and loyal. He was not to be moved by any allusions to the diesatis faction of the Catholics, for how could men who were proscribed remain satisfied and quiet- under their exclusions ! They would continue to be dissatisfied-until their disqualifications 'were re-: molte!.::The Teal- question before their Lordships was Whe ther they .were to return to the old eystem of; coercion; or ep oomph:he the myhteth of et:a:kill:aide they.had begun. That con ciliation had already been - precticelly benefidal. It had ponred oil into the wounds of thehountry.h The Church of England: Ought to sanction , these further concessioas, and sheer more confidence in its'own principles and docirines. He would quote the opinions of the fotinders of our Coustitution, ,of Lord Som ers, the Bishop of Salisbury, -Lord Peterborough,: and the Duke of Devonshire, who said that t‘'ne-Eaeglishminl could be reduced to a more unhappy dentition than to, be ntade' l by law incapable of serving his'King. and Country; and no . thing lent some crime of a iletestablenature could reduce .laiml to steel' a coedition." He did not mean to give any opinion, ori the other measures connected with the present Bill, becausel he-gave his support to this-Bill on its owes merits, not.aitepa-e races, but as a matter of strict'justice, and as being.indieperail s tilde , in - fiery nitemp to _trim (le i iliac- ftelanda-4 Hear, hear:?) . - The Earl of 'LIVERPOOL-a-I cannot, my Lords, alloae this question to come to a deeiSen, without often:lg a. few ob servations upon what has fallen from the Noble- Olarquess who:' spoke last. In - to doing,l aniffi6ifvilling to meet him upon -the ground which he has himself laid down; as that on which.' it is most proper to aiguethis questioe- e the ground of expe diency. Upon that ground, 'upon the helasideration &the: good .which is likely-to result front the passing °lithe mei/lure as contra-distinguished from the evil which it is still-will lee this , consequence of withholding it, am I ready, my Lord ;t, *to - re:et 1 1 my 'vote upon this question. Before 'enter; however; upon fhls . part of the subject,, I must -first make some observations -upon: the new and extraordinary situation in which we are placed, in consequence of events which have taken plaid at the Codunence • minter the Sessieri; We: tirere- then calledLupera to ,pass an Act, for the' Urpose of putting down an Hiegel Associetion, and at th same time, Committees of both Houses were.iippointed to take. into corisideretion the state of Ireland. *Tll64e Coninlittees are still sifting, and it would, in M Opinion,'be much-mere satitfat- . . g we were enabled to legis late uppn' a full view of the subjehte . 1 I am prepared, any Lords, to discussehie question solely uppahe own merits; but I must say; that the - HOUse. Of Certuftens . lies, by its proceedings, brought us into a most extraordinary and: awkward dileenrrot. - They are not Oontent with sending us ai Bill, theostensible object of which is the retnOval - of:the Roman! Catholic disabilities, but they accompany it by, o,e:he/thee Measures, which have no connection with the original question,- atO haying, by means of these two collateral measures,, secured a majorietin its favour in their own Reuse, 'they expect, upon : that account, to secure a majority here. I cannot, however,' help saying, .that this is a-most disgraceful proceeding, Anti:that it will fail of its effect. Let us, I say, know what. we are, eo alecideone. Letus know whether this is .a siogleeme.aaure a nt; Whether we are, by passing it,. callo upon to sanction those other meaittree -by which it 'is accompanied. 'Whatever may, hale been the motives of the framers-of this -html!, I Oi) , that it has been' got up most- nnintelligibly- - -hhatethe , greater part of it is - nonsense, -and - that in- • half an hour • would undertake to draw you . up a Bill; in • which all - its - Professed objects would be more intelligibly defined, - then . they are in this Bill, which has - taken up so much time and labour, and which, notwithstanding, in every six lines contra- , diets whehgeee before. The simple question to which the framers of tflis bill ought to have addressed themselves, and that which We, my Lords, have now, I. contend, - to try is, whether it is ehr- Pedient to reinove the - Catholic disabilities or not ? Important as this question's , it rests; Izontend; trpontheplain and simple, around Of expediency, and' upon that -ground I am-willing to meet it. Are not, say the advocates of this- question, the the ,• Catholfee entitled to all the rights and priviiegs which their other fellovihitalejects enjoy ? - (Hear, hear !)--eTo- rilisl answer With a diri negative.-(Hear, hear !)-e-I - say, the Roman Ca tholics are not entitled to the enjoyment of -equal privileges, with their Protestant fellow-subjects, under a Protestant Cone stitution.,-(Hear; hear !)---This - is. the simple' question (for- k will not now refer to the - other measures to . which 'I haYe alluded) upon which we . are at issue, and - before we de e stead to particulars it is better to decide upon - tire general prin.: eiPlei,'withieferenee to which we are called -upon to reel The al e vocates of this !treasure say, that in free states all-subjects' are en.: titled to equalrights. Now to this doctrine I new wiling to sub, scribe, butts' ith certain limitations. They are, I admit, entitled to equal ri g hte, but onl y upon equal conditions, and my objection to the Roman Catholics'is, that they would not enjoy their liber.L ties upon the same conditions as the Protestants. Timone pays an entire, the other an imperfect allegiance-( Hear !)--The elle. giance of tlotte is complete, while that of the other is divided; and unless It be proved to me that he who works for half a day is entitled to the same wages as he.who works for the wholedav, hi other words, that the half .is equal to. the whole,:i cannot admit that the Roman Catholic, whose allegian ce is di -between a spiritual and a temporal master, is entitled to xhe.' enjoyment of , the same civil rights and. privileges as the r otestenT,''Whcie - ailegitinee is undivided, and who ecknow- P lgeS but one .ruler. L( Hear, hear, hear !)-Thus Much , my hevehtheught it necessary to premise, before I go No the question .of expediency, because great is • may be the argument drawn from expediency, it is necessary in the first i nstance ' to found these arguments unon the solid and im :.l.l,lTahle.prineiples of justice ; and although I twee attended t u ediscussion of this Subject thr twenty years, I think it can be P i tteediiPen no other intelligible footing, I shall not now enter i nto discussions-we have nothing now to do With of 4 Nlrnas Of ihe Realm Catholic:Church, with the doctrines itantiation; or the invocation Of saints ; I shall therh tes-,9nltnetioyeerf to the power which, notwithetending all . that . oeen said'upOO the subject, I maintain. the P o pe stalreinnin atee e e ver tne great body of' the Catholics. 1 know that ithas ve 'l th tlaeooiicy of the advocates of the Roman Catholics to main tarn d e _ c at this power is extinct; but I neaonly i t'efer In the. evi e before your Lordships, evidence whichmust strike with 4u rPrite every man who is no t ' acquainted with it; to prove the tetzi.,lrtordinary influence which is even at this d3y exercised . by ete' nce °Pe- It ha, mY Lords incontestiblv proved, by the evit itt "Dr. Doyle', of 7 l)r, 'Ryan, and .other dignitaries of thh an CatholiCs, that the presentation to vacant ,Sees. in 'the ‘urnan Catholic Chu rc h i n Ireland is vested 'in the Pope at this i t.rl,,,teht-that h e exerciss an absolute mid uncontroulted power minting Whornheple a s e s to vacant Biehoprieke. lie May, rhSI3S (the eViaetic e states'), yield occasional) y to the recone rnelldation o f ot h ers, b ut the strict right of' nomination he re serves to himself. That he had occasionally yielded to the repre sentationof.others has been fully proved by the evidence of Dr. Doyle,' who has stated before your Lordships that James the Second, his son, and grandson, had for succession of years re commended to the vacant Irish Bishopriek e an d that the Pope had invariably attended to their reCornmenciation;:-( Hear 1)- If, therefore, .the King of. France or the King of Spate, or any of those bugbears of the Noble- Loids opposite, were now to recore= mend to the-Popec who.shall,say that he would nee listen te,their recommendation ?-(flear, hear !)-14'ill any onethersay, ray Lords,:that a people so circumstancetiare .entiJed , to a conareu., nity of civil rights. I know it has been said,. that the progresS of education, and the march of civilisation; hive wrought won ders amongst the Catholics, and looking to the present aspect of the times, it may perhaps eppear to sOperficial obsereers, thai little danger is to be apprehended, But I would remind your Lordships that the horizeh is often clear snd serene - when the tempest is nearest.-e , (Heari). , eAnd here I would .eppeal to his, tory, and I ask your Lordships to say, at what period did the (Meech appear to treidAaare flourishing ceedition then towardi the latter end of the reign of Charles Il e ? And yet in 20 years afterwards it' was, that die greatest revolution;took plact.ia- the condition of that Church, and it was next to a miracle that .it was tioetiverWhelmed hi One connive ruin With 7 the State arid . Constitution of this countryt--(ficen!)-This, then e my Lords, is a subject which Might not to be Paesed over. : It hi not to "the Pope, as Pope, that I object-it is to the Ttincjple of •the, ex istence of Such a power air that of the Pepe-ii is to toe doe trines:and 'dogmas of the:Roman iChitholiC Church:thin ldbject; My objections are not to Transubsterniation or Purgatory, hue to the operation:and conduct ofits'Priesthoed over: all the stile: tions of private life. The Noble illarquis hae .stated, that, the etiiiduct or the - Roman Catholic 'Clergy his nothing to too Witri the. practical discussion of thi,esehestioie ~I enema ,agree. with i the Noble - Marquis in this Opiinori, as I think the' conduct of I the- Roman . Catholic Clergy mainly influences that of ! the, Ca, tliolic body i and this necessarily arises from the nature. of i the relations: between them. With -respect to the: duty of confession, for example, it has beep asserted by some Noble berdS that we Pit:Res:tante also receeinis'e the dutY Of cons eel ' sion. I • admit, that we_do, but mirk :the difference,hetweep the Roman Catholics; and us. `We 'do : not require:the : lsere. formanee of it as an iudispensahle.duty.,, 11'.; 40,p9t,:eiseq it:, vite, much less require its perforrnanee, and although we be lieve iliateobsolution, or foegiieness of sins, is thesresult of I sincere repentance and reformation of i life, we de not, a the Roman Catholics do, insist upon an ‘ annual confessiOri e ndr maintain that what is celled the absolution of : the. Priest z amounts to' Sort of white.:WaShing of ili.;:sinner. e e!( il6l-, anti a laugh.)-1 .have • not, however, done ,with.,, V#1 , 4 ,( 9vi15.44f, this syStem Of eolifeision,- . as practised by the RomanC.atholic ; and here. I Meet again request your .Lercleliiiis!tattention to the eel, Bence given before you. From parts of this evidence it appears that if the person who confessed were to'd Ile:lose the commis:Whit the most enormous crime,the Priest is bound to s?.cresy . .--4 Hear !) ;- , Neitheils this bond Of *secileSycorifined ee trienie' v)hibt? 'filiiie been committed, it extends. to. these , wil ich, ere to be. con'ealitce.li, 'and 'not only by the peisah Who makes the 'colifWsitei; but ay art, pf his aeqexitetanees,, "So that if the Refeeneepee,to beerhe eßge nizant of the ir,osnatrOCious conspiracy, of one'for - example to - hloti. up both'. HiiuSes ofiihirliamenteand; harecenn Lard', I am putting no imaginary case-(hear!)-it would not be in his power toeliaclo.se the • secret; -- I erilligo Twitter and say, that if the Priest were to meet a person at a place where/ wo reads rne,t. andlf, Untie? the - seal of confessich;.hatirOl 4 .bdati'infernigtl Mil' a murderer.waswaitinee : for I,ll.ineie sonic dietenee - on, the eight, he would not be justified' in saying t6llini go e to the - left, and you will escape this .fete 'which ; isiprepertninfpn, yoe, r . e (peer, I hear,. beer !) -What description •f religion is this, then, 4, whose. :professors you are --callett iupoir : tre invest-,with -civil i l rights, or, is...it too much, to say, that they are, one ',I derthe tichreive dominion' of - their Priests ? I next come fie, the, question, el ,education e -(hegr et hear !)77,0,1 ihereJ i elriYP 'i eid'leaitithin in asserting;that' I - see fneurinarth able dillictif- . ..1 ties in ; case you pass this e tneeseire,,difh,eultiesi Which .apply '1 to rib other -class of Dissehters, and the reason is obvious.- 1 lee . din I i eitie . Of. other :Didealteni;, 'the' eliesieltatewledget one con - a - nee foundation for inStruction e -the Bible,--( Hear, hear!) .but from the indiscriminate use , of "this Sure& Reek; , the ~ Homan C'etkolic is debarred by his riest e .Yee. ',cone: next to insnbject of gnat importance Lie- Onriecied'-`eilitiP the, in-_' flu rice of the Priests and the„ Aifrecelee:ef, reeereeilierg, the`, two religione.' ' I allletle.. uii time -et(b;ect . of . inarrege. :'fire" Roman Catholic Priest : dieellOwe; ( the: validity , e of„tpaerieges, which have been contracted` within certain degrees or..kin,; • dred which are not recoghited by his Church, althought Lucl- are b.),,- the law of 4114,14;4' -,Tlios e ,the Irxiegli.thdi , the law are at issue; . forr e while the t Ope, eckhowledgee the l y -i - (11t3 - ,• ofthe:gontract, the,Other'telle thoSe by' whotti ItlWetift. liii intvethaethey are living in a etatre of sin: eTheee.areOthet e eteneea of interference upon eltheeiileict, pit witielei ehie e le l it t necessery. now to-advert. • • I have, for e xample, irry , eelf loment Instances Tiber : the • l the - fefused'?o: ..niarry...e Homan Catholic geneleneanneet'Tetitestant lady unless ; he cogagedeliet all his childreti.weee..teelee e eei,tic e etedeeNetOp.", dies;•.:e(laliai - !-) e- I - was de. : erous to 1,-;n6W wllerhet - k i lns wire 464 1 case; iii Ireland H ne S well as i this -country; fifid Ih:4. ividettfle of .Dr, Murray has. sutistieti roe: thatit ii ere , Harr t eken _lnsk,; cad the professions of such opposite :systems Of:faith: an d, prac-', tice be -ever united and knit together' in the bend's' of' social liarr many, and if they cannot be-so united and knit together; whosi4 . (alit is in?: leis eettetheieelt of,.tlielaeyse it is'aeoteliplfault of the 'Protestants,' it is not the fault of' England.-t Heetyin e - - 1 . - It is oividg to themeelVes, and to the •ceedutriff their:7oo47 e the, natural effect -of which is _to create i a edisrenlop ;arid verpk-, relate distrust.-=( Hear; hear,! )-.-Now. nip , respecf,egeetether: Bart of their. Church die - elphne;'l Mean tecoleiminueation, whet - aVarfkil engine is this in-the hands:of the priesteelllhoir 1 1 : shun: be told that! :it is: frequently, , evaded.-I• gzant ;hate itiis) ;: .but the very seeerity of the ,punishment ie that ,which,pinie 'Ven:ts its eefecutien, at leait„in instances, i,yhten the' prie;t, has; niet:the übithimeue voice 'Of - -his' congregiciee with him. • ' Ilnt -OVPReSe the sengregetioa is etnanimettis,. and dna. priest is 4etic open the penieliment of some obnexietis,delingue4n-cii9-nc4, "arty,this, my Inirds, from any wishee - linphte iinOttitleeneoliVO Ito the Catholic priesthood generally, :oil:from:tiny- euppositieri that e tijgre „is. in I hat Body ; hey dieter, tape tqalee, ahesrA:efl ,their-power---1 7 say, howevee, that to the political, nest s thgre.s '64ll2 , :hetrtio mere fearful or dangerous engine than this power MI excommunication, with all its train. of fitirrone-4Hear, hear! ri Is not this proved by the power. which it is upon all hands act knowlesiged that the priest possesses? Do not Protestants and ReneauCetholicite liewever differing in other niettees;)inite in this, that in the various sounqee in Ireland the pewer , of the tindlord is nothing to thet • which the priest poAseesce :in :casea of contested elections,e or upon ether occasions, when: he t wiehee to make his peliticl}l, in,t4uence .evetletkle. : If. the :exile 1 'apprehend have any fpundatiop in truth; then 411 the gond' expected from the nieasai,..itiril - SO' conehlehtly • pre-', dietedemiee. fall to the ground. I bold that the Peoteeeint sue; cession to the Crown, is an essential i peet efithe Consiittitien,e, but grant what the Catholics now desire,, and - the 1 eotestann 'succession is not weith five farthings:n.4 Hear; hear!)-1-Tiffeiri4 ,out, of, consideration the; • question of ,indefeesibite. ,rienet, -; as long as,7Qti adheze..to . thf ,PriniiPlei thutePle,ge,nSiltelhon i.l. Prolsomr, the . Crown' plait also he PrOtestent. - But is 'OW Itibk -Vl' - tide 'country - to be" the only person who •rtniy - en, . tern* scruples on the subject of : religion withont e beil allowed to act upon them ? Is . lie, ,altrne ta be e exclude 'frnrit ; 'ettertaining ecruplee 'on the ~subject of purgatory, ?lie: invocation :Of saints, :or. •tliedeal ,prietence ? - 'Elie Catholic, r elight complain, thrit -for ,eoteetninyielAtten,dOerrines, they erd excluded from the high oifices of that ate. I f y pa admit their( io'S'orne, - -eliy exclede tiler:li 'fiorli 'ollreisl" Why ii -the oifiee' of :Lord -1:1 iencellot :to be excepted? I. could state elasonie why. it would be les; ,dangereous eo have the sittient e of . Ch.-recelie filled" by a Catholic than C . that Of hief Jestie pl', * the.Churt of , Kiiik'S • Berieh '-ebecriiime , the former 'is ietneveirlei at - 'pleaStire t Calholicsel - atimit; e haverseighteta their, scraeiles. ai. 'lonian . Catleoliese e satiae, ever" peesoe. e -arel,etni pre, . - ,w,; 51 4.;; tale ieinfe have aii _q sal right to his scriiPles, be a.etisplifed succession ; " 'Mid `tilt' 'the:. evils' arising from it. thotigle the resin, might, The. tnn , p2nt'ijie wineipletie : givee , etp.. to ,the , ex,l•4•lt !etiOred by the 7;i11, ; it; most be given up -e t ; rarely, , I wii.l. P 4 clF e meet ;he linittif f a i r ly; Lind ; saY,..thit this Will be - no' long,ei a Protestant State,- if the , Bill.thatikl:-puss: ;.l. look upon -the mea,eer.e. es one fraught. with danger to the Protestant Esta, ' blistiMeht. I: ani 'retly et the same time to believe that th 4 Catholic; neither now. nor i e leteein•-haslany , &sigh , upon-the .property Oldie b4tabliehedleirprel ie ,,,een a e k. au; .eenaY to. al: low.; :bet can ryour:Loidshipe en s i ver fOr i - itiaFiriiio; 11,";PPe.n in time to cern:el?' -I Will - call'yeer • LerigiliiPe' attention tn the an- • swerof. Dr, Doyle, and. it is a:reinitrkesblir tote. Being asked; " IV puld you diminish the preperty, et; thel-ast ahl is h id C . :: tire 1.1?? hiereply was,: ' Yei'; not, lid*ever as .'Priest, bet as art !Fah; m en ; "-(Hear !)-..Wha can. 10 t so biindieerionto see .what: this means ? The itortian Cathoiie Clergy will ,nut now Say, )`•':' cause they krelne it to be iinpractleable, that they' will tin -selves taket the property of the-Chtirch. No ii hilt: they woul4 • B. viirireoir43,:;4,'-niiite4444riells,ileit,n4tel• give it' - to .thF,_ public.. 'pelt eis . „ the. bribe : they , offer, There is .nothing in the et - int : fee given ,lik any one o}' t i i t °9 is o , f in del f i a r e P t Y , 4ll4 the t i h r e duty. Their oath, „their rell,giOn, the FlOrrien• 'Catholic tvl i t t h- in, :th ire i t t n en tt. - 'Put T thetigitiOrtainity within theli bind them to its destruction. They mien 'de it if the nine ',l a ve, however, other ohjecduree that:go more hatted r>. srheaoarul,dle.ver arrive ther'xiohla ately to th? objects Of the proposed riesitetere. - This .Itilfis oft fered to us as thiaineans of producing , peai'e andeonciliatien, 4. knitting together all classes of. , higAlajeetylenribieete i Ilia 2 b e f o r e shown your Lordehips the eiftiaentokee aei,bilite of e f ec ting such objects,' from ,theevery.niattmete ,tile Y principlee' heldby some Catholics. The.. question for your, Lordships le, not ringer reeve thi Will'ilie..llill.reln4vr,distsigr'st - 9: : . t. N`..i1l it ne t v et i or if ii e b,iria them It Ivilyt 1 te .the hurtles ‘V+fiere they ntiii. ifaic t t .:.ee t e by- giving new Pe't ire O. et fiat - not bilities of enjeying power, it will bring them more hirer semi: tact with their Protestant fellow subjects, place them on a nearer ' footing of equality, and, by tilos exciting desires, which could not perhaps be gratified, fee.sl - 1 occasions . will arise of dis , aension and disiatiidaPtion. i eoulrl Meier:nand the policy of the measure,' if-it•waelinsSible to unite. Protestants and Catho. lice ; but, 'as now stand,; the byaa any system ot °±s e toa du lla cat y, i i n mattersa ut to inirease. irritation. I now come to the consideration of the rayoel effects expected to result 11.a.att 'se that 'cbuntrybas b w a l a ih n i' l es on .P f, e j..ri t t a . o.t i h is e tTa=s ° t t a . t i :_ . . e ,, l il i i t , i iilao ug l a t that all the discord there, litiS grown out' Of the Catholic '"disabiiities; and that by ret p ae j ak thern4 the foundation:of, lasting peace will be laid. If ever there !leas a proPOsitien Capable'eldernonstration,' it is t hi s, t a e tane,distreeted state of Iraland e had nothing-Whatever. to do with the Catholic question. ThiS is quite evident from the evidence laid. rpon your Liordsiiips' _table.. . During the last 25 yeartathat the been Act h as b een occas i ona ll y put i n :Vice, therehig'fieeri Ho' otie irattaneeer its being acted upon in• any„ part of, the Prince of Ulster:, yet that province is• the . great seat. ofee.ligious'ilir!sensiot,; It . was carried into effect in all amataaa pro Tim,. with the except - ton of the corporate towns, and Yet, in these towns, in the province of Ulster, religious araimosities wear. carriettto• the greatest height., The .discords that 'agitated Ireland did not therefor -,.. arise from anything con '''with '' - ri or with neeteu. rengia this. question: , I say,• they arose 'broUght forward a beg- iifini Tiat airtly ui f ai ron ,ii i ii t il hlg wi re io at r op b ti d l iy a i ; s i lo fi a ,, .af p roperty, which gave an and garlic peasantry. This, it was . theta:ave rise to sucha disor deriai state ti society ; that evil,' however, is now correcting it tell, as appears, from the evidence..of Zi a ,"" - - Doyle. e I fully agree with the Righi Rev.' Prelate', villa sfitike: in the course of the deltate a 'aliat :if this: inea•att,re he one r i g ..right and, justice, it m w smatters sot h atthe number of Cat tidies may be, great or sirriall:' If it be 'a ,tralit of justice;; the few: havetts good claims RS Ale . : many. 'But a with respect to the comparative numbers of 'the ''Catholie•• ' and ''Pr'ofestant 'population, there lirisa..bc.cn, .I, ant convinced, ,•great,,aaggaration. . A .Noble Duke ( Deicirt'• , !iire), in Presenting a as this 'night, re presented th o ,aarnte4a a' oithpiic f as 4ye, to one. ',This, I have good reasons for believing, iv an exaggeration. At the utinoato I - thinot,beliclathey are snore than three.to one.: . The proport,ionis now.prilty nearly the same as in the time of Sir NV illiiisn'•Ntay. l I.`int , '''Ntble Marquis' (Larisdown) 'his dwelt rratettpa ; the greso,.er e privileges, granted to p e oi c s , t a nta in Ca. illolic 'Sthtes, thin te'Rcinntin Catholicsin'ibis. • There are, however a viteinas circumatancesayhich!rpoder ,it expedient that diti - I:•refice Or religion should be. subject to restrictions here, which!rnightoroti besto ireneasary ,in absolute-. Monarchies. --The Noble Marquis argued, as if the Roman catholics in iiiila;countnit : were . .dePtiveld `of 'sit privileges. nue , even airier excluding them from all this bll asked, they would still enjoy timer Civil rt4ti political liberty , than-the' PiotestantS risitting in 4 .9l',cagiOiS j,t, l l l 4iD,Elixorfejt , When the electiy i efranchise;was grante'.'d fo the It•Ctintari*Ciitholicif, it Was hailed as 'aiere.t'betin oiiiloil Atnaticitribua riOW, e 'that; those ve ry a people wile -.talic, .so notch td natural ri g hts an=al of their great ariporteince to the sublec are: preparedittritithis theasitier(irhicii at the titmcist' - can aTect onlv. thirty 'or forty persons) to sacrifice the rights of five hi:Mired' Alcitta'nti . .2-(-leilr; heit :) , ,- , :Whatever mighe! be, the case in other„natidn3, .or in a country circumstanced like Diary land, all ir say' is; that it'"is• not . 'in 'the (lorestiiiition ' Of this . „ coaotil. aa. caleekit, Cathel,ics . go those aituations. to ~yo, u cn the Bill'wiluld' render t illeiii iligitle.. 'There is onet Very mate- risk pAtft f 2, 3 1 .;Vi)14 . 1 I nwat•offer,a feyr e olpervations.--, In . an, other place a resolution has • been come to, that • ii is expe didat,ta make provision : bylaw .for tho.itoman Catholic ClergY I not, be it observed, in . the way of a regimen donum, but a pitisinn: liy; lav: , . 11• That I's. ibis • but tO - establish the Roman Catholic hiesearc'ly in all its, force ? Is it consisitent with the"tiFeliiratitin ikfh P e prraifible',' of supporting `the' Protestant 1 - ;;ltaiilishuiept,„ and flie rights Fla privileges, of theyroteeatant ' nerarc'hy ? 4 Tam not disposed io draw- the' same conclusions reoryatheaCoronatiori Rath abet ,others :connect ; witha.it. I do not ;Hein!: it, inconsistent with, civil concession to the Roman : .Citillolion--(tiegrj)4 m :it i 4 -AO: merely 'by it:ft-relied; 'Bet I 'sio net lAolc,,,*pon it as impoing a religioua ,obligation,ogainst the, .CdfnufaiiitatNi *of 1 15 b il tied! - tliiiileffges. - ; :it nierelyt binds the ; , illozpiaatato,Raitltlaippie C l heirch of England in all its . rights ! and privilegtel. _ Butwhat:Will be the rims:::. ences 'iif this re-, se . 4ll'.ofa if carried•lntpleffeet 'e' : : . Tliq Boman ,Catholic, ~Church of Ireiland fs, already, to all intents and purposes, con sidered. by - the. : .peorile a th=ere t as • . 'a.. National :: Church.— There are instancett of Priests there, so strong is this: imPressidti 1 bn • tll eir ' 2, MI a tla, • : Who t , will not • address a Pro-I testint Bishop hi' his title..., end in „some of the,almapaclo . t e h- nAtntia 1 of" the tiAtoliC l i terates' 'areprinted Ittiarge'let on- very' deli :l,. therefore . 1 t jea 's rn' : ' a y P o 'k ur i . ll9 l4 l oTlkci t ip's t , l finiTfe l r 3 2 7t At are treading P 4134- 1,-eatt. atocl dangeroos,grourttl aa 'llaere are ninny other points•on ' Which 1 should have felt disposed to, Offer a few observations,.! *re a enot:preeenatal...-y !bib! lattraess , pf the hour. :1 .look ,u on this thqasore as ineansislen,t with the first principles of the tYdristittifirin." l l think itiniataisibrettliatrif could' produce that,. AeAce and,permanent . conciliation l eipepted from it., Wliatever; might lieTtg` i•ileets.:itt'the ki ref him etit% ot iratitadi oi'eluita-I, ;i , en,. it 9 nataral, .tehdency.jstap inerease Aisaansion ,a1:14 ,anitno-' sliin. 'l'ilany ektraordinary r.vaielties have been lately promal-!g.ated. , We-are toil( ituktri)oshitig.baarbein gained by the Reio . .. . lutiora ;, that Jamas II :- fell in supporting the glorious cause of'' eieligifitts teileratientr:--(110All , 1}4if, hearl)2--thac his -objeatstaii nut to .attack - . • the reformati,on, but to . procare, for a ll his 'itrbjebt 5. freedein' of 'etiiiii , Jllee. ' • We liroie 'IOW,' since' ililif Lie- I vglittirio,,bad a hundred fnathjety years of aeligioutapeace„tiod . "Pieions to it there was teD'kears of religious convuliion: ------ anai sa . p eiee has b4on 011 , )g f itil the state 9f,: f .nfr. law, . which granted toleration to , a l l Other religious creeds, supporting, at, -site saint ;tim e, the Established Chunch. inea just and reasbnable degree of suoerioritv. We are now called upon to put Protest - ~ i tritS i ind.eld..boßcst;eni't tlit fitiTreTolititik; and , if we'cOitsnt to thi t s. a 4rtaitt 1 aln , that ,the, :i coplequence . till be religious ilissenNon,' and 'not ielt'iiotitt ' . iseace.--(Hear ! )-The ptiesent ~systeet,ltas the ; Fllerience e pf; its geed reaults to recornlfleliti it; an d rfreree it, therefore, to the experinient proposed' in this -Bill; onto Flay o*eillmt.l. itsivelkt heard Suggested.-(Cheers.) rl'he Earl of . 11IMEItICK explain e d. 4 , ? a , E",iri - - or t 1 A P. It 0 Nlf ti V:,. afteran apolOgy for troubling their Lordships at that late hour, and a.high eulogiuni on the •speca'a - or his .Nohle Friend "(the 'Ettri - .6f : Liireipe'6l); Said, • he: ,w4i i nduc,ed to r'!se t , ,Pe•sli" ,t ; l 4, ti.,4 , ll ll lx o s wevez,.. .ppwer - fl noight e be, the" argiurients of MS Noblet Triehd, they hall ni;.-icie tie' infpresSiork ttthcient to alter hilicepnierio.n l l ift Q ti zi i i i ti l t e l itli ni p r l t i i i 4 t a a ; : d i j ing t li gl e e r Yi st e o i r f on n . , 7,... ,.. . ,,,ed was c ret a a r ias , while they professed e their allegiance to the King,; 1 aiiccr ith a thcl to , the pope. c filtt - Notle, Pit e ti il COn ien il id ;that/ they, could not be disting‘4istiv,,d. The Catholics, however, them ; sCIvA - Uiii.ingkiishe'd thern. Ties a4etitnent proved too much, It Lwßul4„follew, frpp: it .that Oit l 4ics.could filot ,t i e faithful. sub jects to any Sovereign if they reasoned correctly on the itilsPosti-A . : tenets pt' their religion. W h at - advantage - coulauis Noble Friend: derive from proving that they must be bad subjects unless they"! -*ere baillogicians ?• If the argument Offils Noble Ftierid Nva good for any thing it certainly w as good for too much. It is as . 1 hiitaCigible far the Roina; Catholic' Cliii4h to contradict In ills- L seat , frgin,w4t ii haa,:lc4ilowl9dged for its e,ptority--,there.; l'oie tieffouse might "wall for. ever before' atS'icid' it 'l3lll. ARP)eir re lleft.if is Iv4i4OffPr Elsa;-.The .pope payeraatouldtre nottnee his authoriay, although lie knew 'that in temporal Mate t terri It was tvelluelissi, 1 It. had heed an - decliireet by thb) Fhencir Friend i Bishop , a in Cauneil, with Bossuet at their head, in 1082. --, 1 - rtrifto , I Yearli - agd, l *ben' the ' !treat.' trueStibti was eprOirotirated to aill the a Universitiaa of .El'u.rope, they: raiected it, with disj 'claiii: ' ' Th'e •Catholte.' Chulch Iri''lreland i'ai`e'e'diSelitinter cl. (Lord Liverpool) had stated that Roman Catholks could not make Oda subjects;. to ii, end; when. his N,iable, the ;luting xemark woad nii•ply to them on the tame ground j in the Roman Catholic States. The objections` that had been ttakene tot :the .seerisya of; :-confession availed, nothing :aisaall the mischiefs of it eaistiog at present could, not be math k'nu'rl; , dithgerOus by: 'any enaCtment- in townie of the Ca t. tlio'ii. 7 I reg i ard' 'te 'the no circula'to'r di:" the :Bible • • .- bdt he CoUld , , not, see how ,;tltos'.- -I•wk ti ,1i7 0, 0:' 0 4glIt t ,o .•tif made to affect, 1 their civil rialits. The saint., inieeht . be Said of' t. ,- '' ''' . ' ' ' ' '' ' I. - am carious re , lat.l v e to xna'reilge asul eicenintnoteation... -if th , ey•filinis'apii fray "sons for e xclo ding tip.. Catholics swis s , they were equally valid reaj '400 . 14' far their aoriatinifs'aiole Co thepritileg ' t • a , a , - 1 ~, es wore. ',Joy airettoy enjoyed.,--.if the orgoinent was *clod for any thinfa, the Legisle.: hire hlat already itoife'tocfflr"eai'tVnivn'saffiy: i , - ou ldi n y,, f it i [ theta, ruts, that tii4t4°,4g 4 ,t;Ple;•, s ‘t,,clitenets slioald d e b ar t h er n t from the fiat' ekercise and enjoyinent of the piivilegei of theif 't,fellaw..citisens. out - Yet JikitifYit - the,PassinSof a,lave, which had "surrendeied the comoittnd of our armies and (air fleet's toalienof that' PerM:lai ion? ',lf stich an argument was true; Yrlicirraklues ! tionarose between the Pope. and the King, the true Roman Ca:: "th v olit4Ould des t.it the King! iin d 'folio iv tHe • Pot a , o lint;for,'his , o,Trllwr,i.lll.eilisl'a'liPved thornsinnetion a„ltago,-,.. , ar , . I,he pi oper wii;i tocoLinierb'atSce - tlie.',ltiffonce - of ehg Voile' in Irelfind ivii to, have recourse to those measeires of. kindnes s and conciliatiod 'Willett' bliniill'inan tb•miii, 'and tti e , citizen to''the -Cloveritfnent: ill etff Ar,cd 03*. I-jeliitia writ 41'''''Z'4.cted by too !natty diseases' 'math; dill riothOpe that ally singte measure could` He . iii i iiteel t. 9 3Q f..cp..4 1, ~a•pm4,sef.i potthia he Anew, that etimi measure of Catholic .c.lanCipatt „, was a necessary step towayds ealMing ihe.disuirhtlnee 0t .. ..f.t.i. iStiial P=g 4 l (l -'to t l'e-fa" of these with apprehended mischief (rout, he admis rni sion of Cath o li c ill e liohl it? th e 'Coisitrioits,nhat thougat : they would ; n o t. :be ti: bit wors , pm: the pi o ,„twit , ALeinbera I;lto.wsre i return e d by the - r ti l t)) iCiirtfiCelia;.','Cli t htlitt l I P Pi WO 1 hi Ilintiterih ot ild , ittai np t ~) ' t ittering power la Ocir means, he would, be to eaptfixt e us , ~ , e , a .• 01 f , rt. , , 4&.••- 6 • - ; . t : • ..,:•- , siii`e to rat.' Wi& regard' ti the re i tio'M tider Which tiil r.erio hc• wer ialip,/itare,i4itan wa,s l a494„.o ll4 th e tiP t i r ..I % ..Ptc. 4, ~ f, ' V 0 I)0_tit(!:1 expediency, it might say nt grouniled on iii t' N t I • 4 ( 44 14 . ' • • ..aSiOlitetr33oFiiity.. 'Re AOPINti.44 4OI, , AVP 4), She . Comtti r • - 1 P ol io or from physical force. But,. eVen lotion, puler from the t iet•tilem , ' • -,•-• :sihkStiiti Thai alarm be . 'AA '. tbuctlet.-- • . rotider ag ai nst 4,4 Oleic andestors had done, the mischief in the sante nytnacr, '..-ei'2lr,tiiiiive•fien''flielfeaiitsi it 'etincealed . Papiiit on ihe"rhrohe, arid a known one, the heir to it ; when Louis the 14th, then in tbe plenitude of his power, was, as - . 'was then suspectal, and which Was afterwards confirmed, paying. the .King money and bribing hint to enslave . his people, the Legislature then. pro- Vided an ample remedy, and • tright.do.so again-in event of a repetition,of the dengere If the Roman Catholics ,of Ireland. Were to have the door op . ened _to them they could have no rea sons forinducing ,them to become faithless subjects to their king. He did not believe that Ireland_was in a state of rebel lion bnt even if it. was, he knew the strength of Begland e to be sufficient 'to controul it. It was a matter of astonishment -to Eueope e , that this country should- be legislating at this time of day on the subject. *lle..trusted-that their ,Lordships Would not by their vote of that night, afford a.triuttiph. and _satisfec. don to those countries whom he. Would not - invidiously call the enemies of-this country, but who ceetainly,were its rivals. The LORD CHANCELLO it' said, that -at that late hour he would not enlarge in his observations-to the - House, and, he Would aVogether pass by the merits of what was-called.the tholic Question. He hati,al ways fairly stated-his objections to the Bills Whenever the : subject :had been. beeught bef4ee that House,—there were, in the present : bill, one or two circum stances tliat rendered it more objectionable than any That ; had preceded.it. In the first place, be could not, understand how the bill., had _come before their, Lordships in the state -in which it_ was ; their Lordships could.. c9llect.front the votes Of the liouse of Commons, which were on their table, that another bill was in progress through - the -Lower Rouse for disfranchising a large portion of the. Freeholders of Ireland ; and a further -one, stating that it was expedient to allow - stipends to the 'lonian . Catholic Clergy, and every body was satisfied:that these: two, Bills Were connected.. , with the Bill which was then before them.. Their Lordships could not knoiv the contents of those auxiliary Bills, and yet they - were called on ti act and vote as if they:did. , That was not a properniode of legislation, and if he saw no other reason for giving: - his op position to theßill, yet on that, and: that alone, he - would op pose ice -e( - fear, hear !)—fl t would not go back to-all that had passed relative to that subject since the Union of this . country and Ireland. A Right Reverend Prelate had stated that no pledge had been given to the Catholics at that period. He would state what his knowledge of those circumstances was. The great man under whose administration that Union- was effected had stated that he never would consent to the carrying of the measure of .Catholic Emancipation unless the most ample seourities were given to the Established Church of England— but he never had heard what those securities were to be, ;and he- never had seen any sufficient. securities4ro posed. Certain it was that those who were most anxious to carry the measure, had in the year 18I*pitipetsed the Veto, but every one must recollect:the manner in which that proposition was received' by the Catholics. That, however was not an effi cient security, but it was Ipe only approximation fe one Which be had ever met with; He had; with great care and attention, taken the troubieto examilie all the bills which had been bi4tight under the notice of the HoUse with reference to •Ciithalic Ethanci pation. The preambles of all the preceding Bills were precisely the_ same in language; but in the preienteßill the greatest in genuity- had been exerted in framing it—it- was different from - all its predecessors. He had taken a solemn oath as to this point of doctrine - ethatnoforeignpower had, or ought to haveany:autho rity within his jurisdiction. To the very uttermost of his power he should suppoit those - principles, that his. Majesty, as seemed meet, Should haee.the power to regulate, as far as respected the oath of allegiance, to the future Conduct of at least, every laWyer that was admitted to perform the duties of . that highly lionoor able profession. In theSe Observations he confessed - lie acted the part of a lawyer, but the part of a constitutional lawyer he -linped.--:(Hear !)—He- confessed that the question - here, as elsewhere, had not been brought before. ,the. House on the same. arena or scale as formerly. He would, with Mr. Burke, ask-theni.whether it was their intention to have, according to the Constitution ofehese realms, a Protestant King, a Protest ant Parliament, and a Protestant Church ?--,(Louti There ,were., circumstances which, in his..mind, induced - him to believe, that the most censcientious Arlen in -the -. country ' were of opinion, that.the-doctrine of reformation in the Roman _Catholic. Chtlith, as to tenets, was altogether a misrepresenta tione.mid..stould -eventually prove to be an -illusion., Under all the circumstances, he professed that he _should feel it his duty to throw: out the Bill. Earl' FITZ WILLIAM supperted the Bill, and expressed his surprise that any real friend of the British Constitution; shoald'OpPoe a principle; as applied to Ireland and•theCatho-, lie cat seoehith they , wntild disdain, as applied to the land they. lived- ire...:; -(.Loud cheerS.) - The House then divided on the second reading, when there appeared-, - - • • . . For it ' 84 present -- • Proxies - 46 . • Against it - 113 present - - Proxies - 65 Majority against the Bill - 48 The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the Ronk adjourned at. , a QUARTER 'PAST FIVE o'CLoc -this -Morning..• . • ' .. . • • ... • ..• . • H:OUS E OF' COMMONS. .• v' Dr. PHILLIMORE presented a Petition from the Rev. H. B. Owen,• against the London Tithe Bill, and praying to be , heard by counsel. , . 'LOD NON - TITHE BILL. ' • Alp., Alderman WOOD moved the second reading of the . Loedory Tithe - Bill, and - stated'the general:facts connected 'with it. The nblect•was to have the subject eiarrlined before it COlll mittee;'if -- not *a . t_Celect 'committee; a Committee of the whole : Ilonse.' The parish' was willing to leave - it even to any indivi 7tanal to determine' what - sum ought to be paid to the Bettor 'but it was - not fit that the tithe should be a matter of perpetual ! 'dispute.. - 'The deed under which the Rector claimed had never been enrolled, - according to the provision of the statute of Henry ''''''' • ' • Mr: COURTENAY thought this a moat extraordinary in '..tdrference - on - the part Of the Legislature. It appeared to him i•that 'there - was - rmt - the•slightest . grOund for the Bill. A decree had given - 2v 9d. in - thepoundtrr the ancestors of the present layitnprapriatur;•and-they had enjoyed the rent charge for 300 years: • The question then was, whether those who - were railed u pun to - pay the rent - charge, were to be permitted, by a Bill, to. relieve themselves; - because the sum wasslarget thawthey liked . to pay?—(Hear !)—lt was alleged that that decree had not been enrolled, and it had been presumed that it had been enrolled rhen .three. - ,lttindred years had elapsed before it was clisP4d. In'the yea 11647, an issue having been directed, a Jury found as a fact that the decree hail been- enrolled. A fterc t)tis finding, would the House entertain a Bill which declared iii ibe prearrililea,s fact that the'decree had not been enrolled.? • ear; hear )--it seemed to. him a most -unwarrantable inva sion of' private property, and he hoped that the parties would not be put to the expence of going into a .Committee. He moved, therefore as an Amendment, that the Bill be rejected. 1, Mr. Altlerfnan ' •BßlDGES opposed the amendment. Mi. W. WYNN said, that if this' Bill were allowed to pasS throitgl,ittiotherstae, it might sieske the •foundlitiqk of all private property. The finproprialor clajtnecl under the law of the land, the security of an, Act of Parliament, and the finding of a Jury more than.one . hundred and fifty years ago, and it was, difficult to imagine a less objectiontlble title. •The douse was ttortorreet itselfinto a Conit Of 'Ju'stice to decide private claims.:. If_ the decree had_ been. improperly_obtained,it had best the parties to reverse it in the House of. Lords.: In all takes''where ate invasion of thiS kind h:ill'been allowd, yr al dat4y : where a great public benefit-was . to be.. seeurea by making a more than a full cornpensatiOnto the party deprived. Mr: J. SMITH resisted , tbe furtherprogreas of the Measiire. Mr. CALC RAFT observed, that what was termed a. trial in -1 . 647 V wati4iO • s uch thing; and the enrollment-war never quest as it was taken for granted. All the parties desired now rfsue to ascertain whether the et:treatment had Cid - been utwi:aanw atedeet. He -admitte4.that the ground on which,he trod was.de -1 licate'arid it was necessary to give security to property. • I n t h e caw of ; the! fire of •London, Parliament lw,l dealt with church property for the benefit of the clergy, and he saw no reason why leshoirldnot just as fitly intetfere:for the•reliera,the.tia rish against the, clergy. Last year he bad carried a bill through Witr regarding St. Andrew's, .Holborn, with the * appro.. bation (At the Duchess of Buceleugh and the Bishop of London when a lower stipend Was given to the - dergjimin- than that to which pe.would strictly .by law 11 , ae hler? entitled to. , If thi Decree 'had been enrolled, there would, wrier; bean end to the ,question; and there ought.. to be. art end . to all li tigation. M r . COURTENAY explained, an ti referred to some &den merits' to show_ that the e nrollm e nt had come in-. question 1047• ecessary to Say life. PEEL felt it unn ore" than 4 few words 'lt of such nature, that he shrewdly suspected • had p?r4 aI • - H Alderman h" If' it ' hien' dra it by the on. e_ wrote . The Right-41On: Aleotlepar then.rgerred to the P9 C edir lg.in sxnd to , a 'previous proceeding tri 1589, re g arding the tithe:4; when it had . been felted and m.pdrtedth at ,'" ,the citizens , gfi .koralort for, u e i r riches were yery stout and would not „ 7 O n the present oetasien -, ,the • citizens also apPeaxed very stout , for their riches, and Hon. Alderman declared .that they w ou l d and by . • Darin t 6: .not pay 'ir twey' help it. g pre nt-SesSion an writable arratigernen hat been matte between , the incumbent and the hialVer's bat he protested against this pans • le invs rion:of private rights. _ _ _ Mr. AV. SMITH agreed that i t was unfit-that the Bill should - proceed :further , • WOOD denied that the • • • ••• Mr. Alderman WOO ie Bill had been btougl4 ' the Co ora tion Of o th er e meats had not boson all other means had fail d resqrted to until after ^ll CAIXRA e a •• " Mi;l3Ull.o.Brit and = 'PT eac h said' „ wortlf after,.v4iish PAtt,the Amend tne a xv ie/ rarried;a'iid the Bill thrown out, wittionl . • - • . • , gr. BRouGfiAm asked the Cnancelldr of the .trebe"q . 'i to. pOstpotkel the bylnginglietti;3..lie-po.ft‘in'the&larits of th e Jud&es. If it were thour t erge toßiv_e thePuisne Judges - a:olre tarry astrhe . 'Peauer , r ".saetri!.' l of• >c ommons , the Secretaries of State, he mignt min too large,. but should not directlx_oppose the proposition. rhat wiihed was, to secure -cffeetuilly the realindcpeodence ot - the 'Judges; and ,with this view he wished, when the iteport was brodght up, to move AO Amendment, to declare that it was.ideitpeiiirne that Puiszte Judges, should be promoted to' the rank of • . Chi, t r* JustiCes, 'The Gil A NCE Li,ort - ot the ENCItEgt/ER was tinWißing to defer tho'bringing up, of the_reporil . . 111 r. .811 , 911611441 added, that it would not bebrotkght_ . cp ,until so late an' Initir'that Many Members would 1.) , _-. - itliSert'.'4flia wished toJ)e present at the discussion. The CrIANCE ',tag' of the EXolllL`Q.lJEll — ugg:2st,• , l that the Hon. 11lernbet tni , rht make 21. ra - oti;:n or, The subject with g,reater Convenience. BROUGH.N.M. said, that, many 40n. jected to the sattu proposed. Mr. 'YVI . LLI . A AIS said that if the 6 . ) , )1:. were. to Stand in t!, - , •, . . resolutiou, lit SYOLII4 trove that lOW. of ' It be 4.:7.V . eil to Li tired Jildges. ?Ir. RAULIG/I.eii NI asked whether tti..lS.totch.,Judjer, - to be left.out of conshieiat z on ? The CHANC:hII.!..:) , It of the EXt:Ij,MQUETZ ;r, , f-rr , Nl what had pissed I.Lit pikllt. it; by tiO'nTh.ani elude himself, frOrn :cOnsidering the salaries of c:-. . 11-' I tI ,Ir e !BROLT()IIAM gave notice tiotor, Tltursll;,,;' submit a motion' eater prietically t.d the of the Judges. KNSIril-TON rs Mr. S. WHl'l'll,ll6/*,.1) moved the 'dis:.•harge 'of the regarding the lierlsington . Road 'Bill. Mr. f/AVENl)_oltrwas "Bill.. to oppose the nteiian.'.' , Mr. H.SUMIsIKR cOritended that if the gates weie mot d as. proposed, increas:,sl expence of 1,2,49/. per atirfurn.r.:otif4, he throivn upon the parish of St. George, 11an0ver:441...ari....-- He' had understood that one object,.of 'the alteration W 44 t', give the'Duice of Wellington a larger gai - den round his ii6u-s ; After a few worths Iron. L4c! Low'rnun, Mr: C., , c,t.e.g . r:t a . and Mr. R. COLift/.I.INE', the t/rder was discharged..;; Mr. SYKES presentttti a petition from the Operative , ' in the Town Of Hill, against the re-emiatment.of th.t nation La ws.-.lteee.ir.:ed to th'e. C.ornniietee...—The, lion. A; . Lin,= bcr Also presented a .pctitiOrt from the Owners of. Ship, others, bi - :gaged in the Trade in Huh', praying that_the t1:1 6'6 ltape-sed should not be. taken Off. He alsa moved tor turns of the Duties on' Soap and Oandles.—Ordered. . Mr. JOHN 1W1 , ,.1.4:A * MS postponed the presentinent petition .Qll the Dalays of . the Court of Clitincery,jearri day, the 19th, until the 7. 9th Of May. 11/r. BRIG ITT presented a petit..: front the Meehartics Bath, against the rener,;al of the to the (;Ommittee. .. .. Sir F. IIL/11D1;/'1,7. preeented a pCtition . front the . hiTtaiii e tarts of WesreitiStee against the house And WitielOw Putits" Mr. CURTFJq .. preeented a : petition .froni certain ileil'i' - e' . ,; . . holders and other inbahltAnts of the Towh' of Ryee'COMPletk' e ing that then were leept cut of the free exercise of ethir.')..ecee tive Frat)eNse...---Thpzilio r n was brought up, and'ortiYtetr .to lie on the table. . . . - . WI . NI)I)N.V TAX., Mr. HOBHOi SI". rake to bring foew.ard his Promised .:'eice tion, fur the repeal of the Window Teen- The lion. Aleenliei alluded, to. the diffictilties of ' his task,' and alluded to the flet. that this tax had long been repealed in Ireland, Where it 'Wee justly ealled.the fever. tax. , In this couneryit - Wae.cqually en titled to the name, ,for no one could dbubt that. ithed annihi lated much bealthand comfort.. Ile adverted' to.the opliliaii ole the political economists in favour efthe.c.ourse pursued by Mee yertiment ; but when lie saw the paper whith . ePristantly chtu. round to everyprrson in the country, and, was received witty much ,the same feeling with which a Pachri receivertthe limas demanding his'head, being a 1301 of Peins ;lila Penalties, fOe it had a penalty Of•fifty pounds at the beginr:lng,. Midtl . le, and end—die thought the tlovernment Was not jtiatified,in Cori,. tinning such a grievance, 'for the sake Of carrying into efret't any favriurite schemes. It was net his Intention efi'letTaeee ari . i thing whieli would intetfere 'with the - finienclal•tteranganents of the present year, but he thought he hada right to pall 44.501 the . House to give a pledge of reduction int' h future Seeldtiri.— He denied what had been - said by the itiglit * lion. Gentlelhan (Air. fluskissoii) in hisletetter - to his cons'tittitits, that. thie was not arniriqtiisittsrial tax: 'Die - Right flee), trentletorm had alai said cleat "this did, not prefer . . with so nieiCh... severity upon the country as many Lindikeat taxes. He Asserted that tbi.s vest at much an indirect taX'Atlie nix upon coffee or any thing Oat:. It was an indieeet thfs;utrin glass, and the House Tot . .w.et;i_.o . 4 indirect. tax upcnt . ;litilitling materials. The. lion. .Mernha 'then 'went on to argne`that the reduction of the Window 'rex upon-small houses cold nOt give the relief evhich tbe Pieel't Honourable the Chancellor of Ilk* Exelielu.lr' expected. 'fl e taxes upon such . lious . es . hmi been 'paid 1;y the larellonle and no eednetion of,rent was now made ; so that the parejee relieved ,were.noz. the pooe, :but moths e eles9. Whey :tee reldiation of the stinie thity upon' 4rOp windows and the bese t-tient storks took place, the .parties so relieved in that respeer universally ConiPlained that they were- lbsers. in .eotieeatience of' the increased el:ernes made. on the hose 'Elk. trutr -.-- ' diately after. This was the casein the city heehad the hoeenee to repreSent, and he e lrelieved hi all ..the other eitle;.4:l, % ' country • so that the classes best entitierd torelief p.itioa- h e by the . relaxations which had yet been - mild:el.: x :lle Hon. /Wern her then gave an accoant..ef the 'origin andarrogeeseeef 'the • Window Tax, sheaving W that it aS nr*t made the Sttiestitute elf the Hearth Tax; . Which' fornied one of the causes of. tbd'EteVO lotion .It might be. asked• by the Ilight Honotendlin (leiv.te. .man .how he meant to sul;ply the cif ficieney ;:hilt :lee re,. duction of this 'Fax would occasion in the 11evernte ? "1:1 - ,' mighe be a very good, question for, the Chaneeldon . at tluel:xci seer tO put; but ft whs. onee. whiCli, ente4lie . , Onto le.'asked w. 'him, and those who thought with leilri that - ell ou.i.‘,Elsteibliet e . ,ments were WO large, and be: neither our Gentlethen in bl 1 0 4",„ not our Gentlemen in red, ought: to be better paid or-intreheain numbers. Tle result,of. the inieerable, war in a nab' had artea - dy proved that the reec4t : demend:for. thelneretiee,of thc.hrnev web unnecessary. • lie Was Also one,of those who objected toleeesi ' log' p the Sinking' Fluid, and 'taxing the people' to. suPir4tkit. Piet He had formerly : been et with the statement that' the ItUTli„ . tt . was mhdeUp; and the F.stittitite lied beet, cored,- .arid, luivsi be ;paid: Tint lie now only proposed, that from and after 'elk iili of April, .1820, the whole of: the tax -on „Window- should :case anti ileterinine. ile*C6Uld'not therefore, be . .met whin h,. s se e objectioas, and he thought it was-very little td Ask on. bell - di' the people, whose prayers upon this stilejVf.lned been 1.1,444 'heard: • Gentlernen ViOutd recollect . tfiat, fiTey, 'Were .41r-, wk, _ their death, beds, turd that this Sort . of : deathleed;o„tatititiee - *might be 'better then nothing A the estimation of , tliOree 4l .. stituenta e ,Tbe HonAlembeteConeuclid ;ley pnwsictg - a W. ' re:Antler' to . the' following f eiredf2L" . That'it it The opinion' t .4 t"'f ~ . kl. House that the numerbus ! Petitions.piesented" . tab; ate' Ittly ,desefying of,attpation and 'That theeetcire . frbin and*h.fter . <sth Aptil,' 1826, the said`taX' ought to . lie iiiitnedieitely - analerally repealed.'? Mr. LOCKTIA,IfT seCentletilili'el4lotion. - . -,: 1' Tile CHANt ELI/OR:of the EXCIIIXIIt R dithentnear, to ( say, beeitesi :Hop.. Geole.* ne had already ug - reed to , the Estiniatei for the year, they were batiritt ncitte.aeeedi4.to jlee p sa r m es e en i t il m le o st t i i p o p n.. 7a Y s e taiitsopougsedht of- a b t e- il h o ort d i rt. . a ie nt_ t , ln ,p i a ttel . 4 4 .1-sj ,. A j r .; . ; brought, forward hy the Ban; Member . fet Abingtitil , , . "Itfter the I,lOuse. heel repealed ;this, Session tp,kti.ii i i6;:t4,:4):',ooiii 'cif 1,500;0001.'0n n calciiratitiii af..th - i;',...tirph:lS' R'eitfut'e . e lfot.fe three years .13 , 25, 111i16 . arid: 182 7 be ati•etifely il-f- - Piiiii dee t. riP W . to enter til alio th ei 'pledge i 6 in tote ensuing Session.. If, therefirre, _the e llaufe, was, net et present prepared" to alts;' the" tySteni. dr fr•e - Saiking 'Fund, they could riot adopt this rrieasurer--Viiith respect to the pet'.-' tions against this tax, to which..the Ilout,#4ihe.T•AV.4;ll;ll"l - he should e eay wits, that rnisit..o ffiose fiit l ifiPA.ll4o,re,...P" " sented before the financial •statemetlt is 'kieli , tle . ..:itt.tV'e.'; • .cellor. of the3Eashequer):hail'atihrelited - :to`Paillitueetd'A4tltet! . .e. public. They genetently neayeciltiett.if net the iltele,'Ne z.-:.' the. wintle.W. elute: Le parttirelnity tieeee !le:king .on .thevesaitrr classes, should be remitted,''and with the 'ratter reqesest;.nge.haet in• hie plan of Finance 'Complied. .stritel•flutt ;Le had: harissest honour of receiving} the ('orporation: of..the ,eity pfl:entienNeenti ' on etsplaining his Intentions to then; he thaught.te• could ilea - ceive from theisenannerThnt'theyWere'iatiailede • TheePropee - tient at 'indirect ta direct iiiit,i . Was now lebout:fifty..miliitifee „to: three and a ;half millions, Whieheins ericrug,h to AtirL*l4ii.aLy 'one that the Latter could: hot .lee felt.' 'very severely ) onti.itwo yea :Ivo not less than . two .'dlliorts . three, liatuktktied . ponnds:of Asiessed-Taxes:were.'repealede antrithia. very Ses sion, out of :978,000• '. rgatiause. l " 4464 - l iellol*PA34:l* - Isatt relieved upwards of i ii,Qooa: inetiiiiiitysit .VVrespniesteFeetenn sisting of 17,000 of these contributor., gam 4 i'• M'FII lififV,lVer. exonerated by the plan of the Facet year,' .;.kle,irepposeed -elmit , proposition, however, because he thoUght...the, public:estruee would be more consulted. by,ciniplfiying:theeurialuserestenaree :the reduction of ihe 'mass of indirect duties,,:iti,tteacto.(4iirect taxes. Bensteadily and .firealyepeirraiing. chta,,eptirse e elaseferau benefit would be conferred on . thi:colintry. . He tilweeMitan. and should refuse•to mve pledges fiir tho.futureregarelingatrlin. tion as leading to .extepsive inconsranisaire.-.4 Hear., War. isYet • Colonel'lMVlES thought if the. suuntry •was to . be,epollee every man would deentre.bis conviction,. that the•repecilofstt e diireet;_ -. 4y Sul& be:there beitaieidl -than; the, rePeal _ of she indiree t taxes. He should' upoti; That and other -grounds support tht t'-motion of-his , Hon:. Friend-the - Aleinbereefor.Wasturiostene;. t :':..lure LElStifea-shotild.reeneetisnliiii:Oicition.i., sir he Con sidere 0., from the notice-which had been 0 1 e...n of a Ite . '‘mian -'°f the (Cain ,lettrie4; tirdehtsla.iaxstieiiii.'eheapAarieeprolitiree • were lie consistent with each other. e s , .2. . e .t....:::.,.e. :. , ti.. - !.40, • CM4tftitA ig 2at ' - PH:rad ee i pe4 ktaSattiOn , of :his e Hon. Friend. ‘Helionipd, hovrever, that before the',end if ttionext Stsatoli eheßigrinekien..Geutientori woukthe-abit. to' do, asirhy _with svouggiing,.: by ; the -appropriation of gait of • the - onfplus yeses now existing to the farther repeal of foreign cluties.e.- . .. -Mr. BERRIES :defended the course pursued by Ministers