The Sun. — London, England, 1834-04-22 00:00:00

iron 1? ailed amongst them at the last ele - ctloii, that the committee recomranded - that they should be . disfran- . ' lli sed• Th ose w h o supporte d t h e bi ll were -anxious to reeish tho se who so corruptly voted. He (Sir Robert r ,1;) also agreed that those who had been guilty of cor tuP"cm sho u ld b e pun i s h e d ; b ut h e b egge d t h e h ouse ' nam recollect that there were twa oth er classes o f voters, the freemen and the 10/. househoders. Now the emarnittee, whose report he was about l td refer to, was presided over by the hon. and learned member for Roches ter mr. Bernal), in Whom the house had 'so much-con fidence as to make him as it were their Deputy Speaker, as he presided over their proceedings while in committees ef the whole house. The committee to w hi c h h e (Si r Robert Peel) had just alluded had for its head the hon. gentleman, and they had every desire to arrive at the truth, and to proceed with the utmost_ impartiality. That e°raraittee, then, which condemned the class of voters_ to L wii, icb he had alluded ' went onto report that the committee , ead not beert able to discover that•the-freemen or the 10/ uouseholders had been in any wav involved in such corrupt practices. (llear, - hear.) That was as corpplete an I , a cquittal as t h ere poss ib ly could b e by this i mpartial tri- Y „"al• (Hear, hear.) Th e y a cquitt e d the 'whole, censti "eneY, with the exception that he had slated,'of tl,l c orruption ; and_ - the noble lord "the Paymaster of the lie to rces • should be gratified that the new eonstituency which had 'give n to the borough by the Reform Bill had Passed through the ordeal Without being tainted with con :" ru a rcm• ((heers. ) They . had . seen the general pre of corruption amongst one class of voters, and :',; ( mgh inducements were held out to then they escaped ' n out imputation', ' (Hear; liar.) Now 'What was the !mother of them? ()n the next election not kss than - six - 'Mildred voten, if the eorrept voters . were disfranchised allEl the boundary of the borough" not extended ; there - uOUlcl be 124 fremeii, and thereinainder would be 101.. "tigeholders. This, then; would be such „ a constituency.. ae the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) 'contemplated aS'the e .„ 1 " 1 and permanent constituency for the boroughofflertford. - '" 1; " e Y all' agreed to 'shake off the guilty class of voters-- at he trusted that the' house, seeing that there was a erit constituency left, - would' consent to leave the - 4: li gh as he propoSed.' It should.be recollereted that the 1,0111,g-freemen would gradually die off, and the election Here-"" b e in the single class'householders. Istow w as little doubt that if the boundaries of ihe boroegh • - not enlarged the number of the latter class of - Voters l i uld he five hundred. He (Sir .R. Peelywould ask the k cals e to - compare - this with other towns, and to recollect ; t: ; hat there were not less than ten boroughs having only be- - ~,ween three hundred and four hundred enters. (1-iear.) T h e re were' five hundred voter. in Hertford who were qUalified tinder - the Reform Bill. They had been exposed, t eroPtation, and had passed through the trial without a • -- , B _ tai ri: They, therefore, stood on higheigraund than un - ,ried voters • they, therefore ought to have the franchise 'ilitrusted td ahem. The charges against...them had - been s a.bmitted to a severe tribunal, which . thoronghly inyesti gated th e matter , an d acquitted them. ;He (Sir Robert Peel), therefore, put it to the- house to say upon what Principle they ought to _be -punished, .(Hear; hear. )- He did not wish to enter into any det a il s on ' t h e subject ; but .he was extremely anxious to state; te..the: house the.real question under consideration----It was a political question; :.and he trusted_ that the hous e wou ld only regard it in that e„ fight. tinderthe Reform Bill the botmdaries of the lico otigh of HertfOrd h a d b een fi xed ; and,' as no charge hid 'been proved against - the permanent.- constituency-of- the, -410 rough,. therefore there could .be no necessity f or the' large-addition to the BormfiltAlie9x.") .- :His' amendment' was, that the remainder-of the bill...after. file. first clause, should be struck out. 41e- should- not then . press his ndment, bin he intenctett-ta-do-sctthat eVerring- AVALTER. hoped the'honSe - ioiild agree with the r order ti eport t!' e committee,:andeanienftZlel,the bill pass, t r am the w.. r zi!ns eni e ly y -the-evireomplained of.---He would no t entering into the evidence given before committee on the ,present . OCCasimi;for the purpose of beewing• the extent, to -which corruptionliad. been carried, ,t ut „ hO feared that-some hon. members had already begun torget the aggravated nature of that evidence. It was o ffieult for tho p se, who had aitended - to t o to select any. Ptieula r 'OllO Passage in support o However f..his:argument. Hower been the polline- money might- haveoriginally been, it had 'ell by late candidates for that borough converted into re eans of .the_grossest ..cerruPtion. The hon. member.mereeicribed the r9tere of .the feastings that had . taken 1 - ate three quartereof a year.prior-to the. election, the way which refreshment-tickets had been distributed and open '‘. ' ts e* - „ kept for-thel'aecomunadaticeLof the _fetters, _observing nit elector s did not appear t o h ae had .empty sto- It'aells, whatever else they might have had to . complem . of. er he somewhat strange, too,„at.the üblic-h bills. 'a ,e amount of 120/.• and-220/. t should P be allowed ouse to ae eiulate without the landlord's knowing by whom they ttt to be paid. He would observe,' in conclusion; that.: hpFhad deeided upon he bribery and corruption ttbieteß-2-tzea.-. Plac ' and - t'a'd - tht mloptimi of r eai - - • • t .at the reeom .ndation of the C:Onartiittee in order ~ ( Z u t einedy the - evil' and he trusted . :_ttal.`they,would new sent t • Lo n being passed into a law. . ob e „, rd P. SOMERSET . eouldnot help making a single • f or -Zation in" answer- to -the-I-eine - As-Of the bon.. member tretttserkshire. The hon. ,rneAer had spoken of thein „, gl:t Hertford ; .but ne ither heliniself, nor his frieria," '• - ittllict e e seemed during the last election to have been - . - tCheers.) The poi t " us ervations onreFtfoi'd were much TO the' n ; but th puei,6 4 far e Voters of that borough would be sufficiently" of his ri h tlieircorruption,. for even if the amendment or five h undred of them .would be disfranchised.- That, hood_; ever ' Was not the ease with the constituents of the:holt'. ',leather for Berkshire,.not one of whoMbailbeen subject& to the slightest penalty. (Loud cries_of " Hear.") 2f.bere was a bill in its progress through the -Imuse, which had been introduced by the noble Pavmaster - of the Forces, the obje c t of which was to punish all the voters in boroughs'' . who might be guilty of any sort of corruption. He (Lord Granville Somerset) was sorry that the provisions of that . ' bill did not extend to Aunties as well as to boroughs, in _ order th a t it might inelnde . the constituents of the hon. member for Berkshire, and other. county ccinstituencies", • Many - of whom - were as .corrupt as any berotigh constitu - ~Hey in England, Scotl a nd, o r I re l an d. (Loud - elvers . . ) In i e sb e ld not but think that- a county constituency' which the eon : s v t r t ( ilextc l y ought to be subject to: punishment as well as house _Dia borough.. The question before the corie" 7 .es?t, however, was not whether there hadheen Ptiou'r was nelator - hof Fleiffoid'; the -teal well g.4atvhi,et‘hher,the, y sEl ° u u l p_uulsh the ymocent as well asthe • vot, - at norough." He prayed the house not to in he guilt / 11 :: , n it t e i a n r. lie punishment to be inflicted on the called o J eATANLEY. said .that die. noble iord .had th e honthe--house to pa ss judgment on the constituents of c a n. member for: BerkAtirr, whom he had presumed to Yet ir il qr, - -though they h a d no t been put upon their trial,: e declined to 'punish the electors of-HertfOrd, whohad H e Proved guilty of the .grc;ssest corruption. (Cheers.) tue n ren 'inded the house of' the" state in which the consti 114' cif Hertford • - even after the Reform Bill. The °p ml were even a th 6 en suffering from' that species of Iltn er r t ml and intimidation which the fear of being de ette44 f their holdings created ; the orgies which were te r4 ged among the voters barrels of such wine broached laat i t 7 . .''treet ; intoxication carried to such extent that one ; ) alisba .. ; the voters - marshalled by the fegleman of Lord 4 4 , 1 g ti l - •A own corps and Lord Salisbury himself pared thief st reet, "supported on the. one hand. by a convicted Such a rid on'the other by a returned _felon. (A laugh. ) the , I,.' k ere 'the-scenes to be seen at ,Heillord dering refo election. It was high time they should be rale ' Sir I t ,taemb •••HARDINGE said that if .the object of the hen. these speech .tvas to east imputations, he had eucceetled e ast e „„' se imputations which the.hon. member. presumed to 'ecter'n Lord Salisbury might with equal justice be .hi guilt a gainst Mr. Thomas.Duncombe, for he was equally 2 t owith -the noble oble "lord. . (Hear, hear, hear.) As tel is h " bill before them, what clid . it de ? The first clause , e ( e .`o those guilty -of. corruption and that clause see,' i Henry Harding.) did not mean to oppose ; but the and it c lause puniihe t e Innocent as well as the guilty, that clause he objected. r. By the second f Il e 'oe Whale of the 101. voters *would be swamped. ..eo est ?, hea r. ) It was said that the enlargement of th e l it'4,!'?ency was no punishment *to the present electors ; li Henry Hardirige) considered it a species of eultu tent ii x e se t na l ent thus to dilute.. 'What st-as the punish ale( upon . Aylesbu y and Cricklade ? A hinge t „ Population was taken r into' he borough, .so that 4 eti e be argued that this addition to the . consti r sle eter as not intended - as a punishment to on, present t rend ' t i t - could not be said that it Was necessary to ex ' . 1.1 4144 e constitu enc y : on account of the smallness of that. t itled 11 "eY . ; for at Blackburn it had, - been.`thoug,ht en . itti t lvto e nfranchisement, although the. number of voters co est . as only 626, which was not more than the present • . to itueue ei ley yof Hertford. In Tavistock, too, the consti `6asti, "as •only 2,175 so that, in point of numbers, the • toe nr; "1 , e v of Hertfor 7 d would appear, even according to re', o - 1 1 e i Ties laid down by the Belem Bill, to entitle_ it Alr ''•RN AL r . was at present. th.hey really did not know what proposition hone e ntertaining, whether it Was that enunciated by (2 0 1 0 it land gallant-member for :Westminster or what. e!' l t tl - - EvANS - said that if his amendment wouldpre bill from beine carried through Ihis session he l'h e lc 't Press it. etl, 0 question of the : third reading was then put and car ertolochr„di,vishni being called for. li e tVANS then moved, by way of rider, a clause t r i efor,r t lhat at all futitie elections for 'the borough...Of Pon te‘. 4e votes owuhl be taken bv ballot. vt er - . 8 clause the house clivided, when the nuinbers aius_, For the t amendment B2 J l4 l th e 182 Majority —loo eutnission of strang ers to th e ga ll er y, K•EL should not move to leave'out thewhole of , 1 1 , (1 1 .; e\Vestrt:itib:e.a:use that would preclude thegallant member e . . eet oar s , trent moving Ins 'amendment afterwards. sec saould take,'theiefore, was t Move to kayo .g . . and 4LlTtd.c,"4.r.- (leftiOe4_,Ahttid-:f port recommendition. )iy After a 'feiii-iVoids - front -11Ir.'Til1firsciii and Colonel EvAxs, the house dividal;',vbrn - the numbers appeared__ ~, 7r. q:ir the AMer ,- - ~ f , , 109 Against it 'Majorit y —34 The announcement of the number, ~i the ikinorit V was received with loud cheering. Upon Our re:admission to.the gallery, Colonel EVANS had moved his amendment - for limiting the boundaries of the borough to the limits deanc4ty thetßoundaries Bill. The house divided , upon , the, amendment,. when the numbers were,- . . Ayes ... _. Noes - l9 Majority —9B `.:;CJIANN . JE.I, FI SI Z L RIES. ' Mr. 11A-Lcs.:Thth obtainta leave tO b;ing in a bill far the better regulation of the British channel fisheries. DISSENTERS' UNIVERSITIES BILL. _ _ Mr. G. WOOD brought in a Bill to provide for the admission of Dissenters to the "Universities which Was read a first time, and o r d ere d f or a secon d reading on Wednes day se'nnight. Sir R. INGLIS complained that the interval allowed between the first, and • second reading of so important a measure was inadequate. Mr. GROTE moved that a message be sent to the . House of 'Lords - requesting permission for 'the attendance of Lord Ellenborouglr - to be examined before therPensiow Committee.—Ordered. The other orders and business having been disposed of,' the house adjourned at half-past one o'clock. LIST OF THE MINORITY Of 141 (Teller incl'aeo - who, on the 2ist of April, voted against the paying 250,001.1/..a. - S,ear out of the. Land '4 ax, in of the Church Hates. 4dams, Aglibsiby; Bainbridge, E. T. Baines„ E. , • Baldwin, - Dr., Barnard, E. 0.• - Barron, H. W. Bellew,*ll. 11, Isewes, . . Bish; T. " • Blackney, W. • Blake, J. M. - .Blamirc, . :ZeWes, , J. - • Briggs, It. Briscoe, J. I. Brock tehtirst, J. ' • Brothertol! ,, ll.' Buckingham, J. S. - 8a1wer.., 1 1,4 Butler,. lion. P. S. Cayley, -- IR - S. Cayley, Sir G. Chapman, • M. L. Chichester, J. I'. B. .Clay, W. Dalmeny, Lord Dashwood, G. H. Davies, Colonel Divett, E. Ellis, W. Evans, G. Evans, Colonel Ewart, W. E.- ing, J. Faithful!, G. - Fellowes; - Hon. N Fenton,-.J. Fergnsson, R. C. Heiden, J. Finn, W. F: • FltaMmoYi, C. Fitisithon, N. French, F. (iaskell, D. Gilloni - W. D. th - sborne, T. Godson, R. . Grote; G. Guest,_J. , Gully, Hall, B; fi<arxlleq, B. -'" Harvey, D. W. Hawkins, J. H. Hal M . M. Hodg,son, J. Hudaon, T. Hutt, W. tiyett, W. H. ,lughatu, It. Jacob, E. , James, W. Jervis, J. -Kemp, T. B. Kenuedy,..L.. Lambtoh, H. Langdale, Hon. C. Leech; J • - Lister, E. C. Lloyu, J. H. Locke, W. Martin, - " - Moksworth, Sir W. Nagle, Sir R. OTrien, C. O'Connell, Morgan O'Connell, C. O'Connell, John - oTorinor , Don O'Connor,.Y. O'Dwy . er,.A. C. O'k errall,ll. M. 'Oliphant, L.- Otd, - Oswald, R. A. Parrott, J. Joseph , Roche, W, Roche, D. Roe, J. Romilly, a .„ Aoiy, liH.l. ,i- Ronaytie, ,Russell, Lord C. Russell, W. G. Ruthven E.' Sc holelield,. J. Seale, J. H. Shame General she 4 h. Smith, R S. Sraveley, T. K. Stewart, J. , Strutt,' E. Sullivan, B. Talbot ? Tently on, C. Thompson, W. Todd, J. R. Tooke, W. Torrens, Colonel TreLiwney, W. L. S. Turner ' W. ' - - I'ynte, C. J. K. Vernon, G. H. VigorS, N. A. Vincent, Sir F. Vivian, J. H. Wallace, It. Walter, J. Warburton, H. Wason, It. • -- Whalley; Sir S. Whitmore, W. W. Wigney, I. N. \Vilks, Williams, W. A. Williams, Col. Winnlugton, H. J. Wood, Alderman Yelyerton; Hon, NV: Philips, M. Pinney, W. Potter„ B. Pryine, G. Richalds; J. Rippon,- C. Robinson, G G. R. TELLER. Hume. Joseph. _ . ,' • - LIST .OF. THE MINORIT.Y . • " -Of -84 tTellers in eluded) ~.who: voted. f 'r Colonel, Evato 's Clause for taking the Vote by,Ballot in the Borough of Hertford. Aglionby, H. A. Gully, J. .• Iti c ter, - T. - - ,-,--- . 7 .,. Attwood, T. Hall, B. Roche, I). Bainei„ IL ' (._ :...i Hardy', J. Hatch, B. , ..- Barnett, C. 1. -- —4 Hill, M. D. Ruthven, E. S. , . Bellew, It. Al. „ HOdges, T. L. Ruthven, E. l-thirliili.ll, .R. . 'I. '::, Hutt, W. - : Russell, fLoitt.e. -`, Bish. T. I tlyett, W. H. Scholetield, J. ' Blake, M. . .-. ' 'Jacob, E. Seale, Colonel ,Blackburne, .J. " - - Jervis, J. Sinclair,. G. Bouverie, Captain Kemp, T. R. stanley, , E;. , J. , . Briggs,-IL - Keppel, Major ;Sullivan, 8.. Brotherton, J. Langdale ' Hon. C. Irennyson, C. •: Buckingham, J. S. E Lister, .C. ithrockmorton, R. Cliaytor,,Str W. • Locke, W. Tooke, W. • - • Clay, W. • Lloyd, ..1. H. ',Vomits, Colonel- Chicheste,r, J. P. 8.. Lynch, A. H. lynte; C. J. K. - Dawson,L. • Moreton, li. Vincent, Sir F. , Divelt,..E. Mullins, F. W. \rigors; 2C,__A. ' Dykes 'F. L. O'Connell, C. -- Wallace, K. . Email, It. O'Connell, Morgan , - Warburton, -IL - -- Faithful, G. Ord, W. Wason,:.R. _.. Fenton, J, Parrott, J. Waterpark, Lord Ferguson, Sir Ron. cease, J. - Watkins, J . L. 'Fitzgerald, T. - Penlease, J. S. Wilbraham, 0: - „Fitzroy, Lord C. . - Phillip, M. . Williams, Colonel -Fleming; Adtniral...'i Phillpons, J. iA 71 . .. ... ' Gaskell. B. Potter, 11. -.- TELI,IIS. ' liOdSoll ' R. Pryme, G. Evan's, Colonel - Grote, 0. Bulwer, E, L. LIST I?_7'II4IVIINORITY Of 12 (Tellers included), who voted against the Grant to May nooth Agnew,' Sir A. Lowther - C: H ' I , ateson,'Sir R. :Vhuideville, KnAtchbull, Sr E. Pereevali co.onel Letr4, r. Pluroptr_e, J. I'. TELLER. W r ..9Y2: A. Sohnstone, A. [ Sinclair, Verner, W. HOUSE OF LORDS, April 21. Lora =HQWARD of EFFINGHAM presented a petition from the dissenters of chapelry in York, pra.ying.for relief. , The Earl of RADNOR preiented petitions from Carmarthen and Breeknook te.the same effect.. Also a petition from a parish in the county of. Down for a repeal of the union. -- The Bishop of E X E TER presented petitions from Topsham; and from - the Wesleyan methodists of Exeter lorthe better observance 'of the Sabbath. The. Duke of WELLINGTON presented a peti tion frCnin a parish in - the county of Derby, in support of the eAtablislied church. Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from Wil. mington to the same effect. _ The Earl of DURHAM presented petitions from the Protestant Dissenters of Newcastle-on-Tyne, Dun , stable, Bury, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Gainsborough, praying for a separation of church and state. " Lord STRANGFORD gave notice that he should to-morrow move - for certain papers connected, with,the,§ubj . cet !vhich he had brought under 'their lordshfps' :; notice on Fridaylastirelatip to smuggling on the coast of France. • - ,PA.SIBRIDGE PETITIQN. Tla bake of - OLOUCE STEM Said that in pursu- . ance of the-notice-he had given-on Friday last, he now rose to .present to,their lordships a petition, signed by • - 258 members of the Senate Of 'the- -University of.;Carn , bridge, praying their lordships not to adopt that measure which h a dbeen prayed' for = bylf pofition which had been presented on a former evening. In doing this, he hoped it would not be understood that he meant any thing unkind or disrespectfullowardsrthose gentle . men who: had --signed that petition, for- they were most respectable, and; 'for some of whom he had a 'great personal regard. In present ing this petition, he did , not 'think it ne cessary .to trespass oh- their time on , his-own behalf, bet on behalf of his brother petitioners he thought he:- ought to make a few statements, which he would do -- as briefly -as poisible. With , respect` to 'the first pe tition presented, he had never heard anything. of it' until Wedneidaythe'l9tktif 'March, when he learned roi: the first 'time, by the newspapers, that notice had, been given in that' house that such a petition *as to be .presented on the 21st. - He immediately wrote to the Vice-Chancellor to express his astonishment that he had not heard anything of it, and desiring to 'know from whom it emanated, by whom it was signed, and particularly 'to be informed whether it con:. tained the sentiments of thermajority of the senate of the UniVersity of Cambridge.- He received an answer to the -letter, on the Friday follovring, but from' the secrecy maintained as to the petition, it was found dif=' &cult to cbtain any intelligence respecting it, neither by whom it had .been signed, excepting a very few names. The Vice-Chancellor said in his answer to that letter, that he had communicated with the 'different heads of housei, between the short period of receiving the letter and trans mitting the answer, and he could state that no change of opinioillad taken 'place upon the subject, as far as he had' an .oppOrtunity of inquiring. Now he (the Duke of GlOu ceSter') thought that until he could communicate - what he considered to be the true state of feeling on this import ant subject, he had better not attend - their lOrdships' house, when that other petition was presented. (The illustriouS duke here Went into some particulars as to the power of the veto by any member of Caput to prevent an act of grace, which were most imperfectly heard in the gallery—and he also spoke of • two instances in which such a power had been exercised.) The petition, h e added, as he had already stated in the outset, was signed by 258 nos 'resident members of the senate, and it was signed in the short space of two hours, after the power of a veto had been exercised by a member of the Caput. ; But their lordships had been told that the dissenters ought to be allowed to be admitted to take degrees at the university. If such were to be the case,'whatdid the admission amount to? It amounted to giving the dissenters power-in the university. (Hear, - hear, hear.) They would have a vote upon all alterations which might be proposed affecting • the university; they would have a vote for all the officers, and for that which would affect the general patronage .of the church. It was said that the dissenters at that mo ment received their education at 'the university up to a certain extent, and their degrees were refused them. This was made a matter 'of complaint. By the wisdom of our ancestors, by the Wisdom of former Sovereigns, the lawt of the university had been framed. All that was required when a young man entered the university was that he •Aould take - two-Oaths;. and 'what, wpm-they? The ode wa4 requiring him to otivoii 4 e ilwdinipline of the university, _ . .. I. :and thelOtherlyavtb4 oath of allegianee.f .111(17S1101116 irk _ have. troubled their lordshim Mon this. ,point bad it; nOt beenior'What hadliltf*frecte h. for mei* `tit'easiOn.. - 'lt' had _been argued tbat;_untihtlio.seign. of Jautes . l.ildipsetiter had been admitted. Now, from 1614 to the present timo was 220 years ; a period so long that he might 'rest -satisL • -fied almost with the case as -it thus stood—here being a precedent of up‘vards of two centuries in its faVour. If the university had, during 226 years, '-se existed as to- the laws which regulated,it,. and during these 220 years n o 'complaints hid been urged nor evils felt, ind'fram that pe. rind. there had been educated within its walls so ma.ny-emi- • neat men in science and religion,-- - -in science no .man had reached the summit attained by Sir" Isaag Newton --and so • many members from - thit university had adorned that right , rev... bench, if during all this long period such had been the regulations and . such the - effect, he (the Duke of Gloucester) really saw no necessity whatever for any :al teration such as that prayed by the petitioners, whose - ' petition had been previously laid upon their lordships' table.. If dissenters were to . obtain, degrees at the university in the way they sought, then indeed would the whOle system of reification follow. (Hear.). Nay, he really knew not, to what results it, might lead, for it m i g h t uhimately affect the stability Orthe throne itself. (H ear, - bear.)- - [So we understood the illustrious duke, but he spoke -occasionally in so low a tone of voice that much ,of what lie said waS not heard in the gallery. 1 If dissenter - -were -permitted to make suchan inroad, might not - Unita:- Jians, or Jews, or 3lahometa.ns, became Professors ? He admitted, hoiveyer, the dissenters - to be a respectable body' of men; _but be.denied.that they composed the niajority. of - the nation ; for the great majority of the people was of the established church. If, 'however, - dissenters were allowed a t i ee l aira s th iy,iii a cie, it would_be - ; ni vain to, expect that, those who wished to send their sons to be educ a t e d in P'eliurch - 'of'' England piinetples, could scarcely rely that - t ineh principles, ,andtinothers, would now be followed b y them. Who could say what would be the consequence of, 'admitting dissenters in the manner they wished ? ,-' Wonld theyeontent.thernselves with what they now asked?. H e . had given' his cote in faVOur' Of the Catholic Relief Bill, by; which bill•noble lords in that house, and hon. members_ in the other, had seats. Would those noble lords and lion:'"gentleinen have tolerated the measure; if they had been restricted to having.. seats in both Houses of Puha-, ment, if they had not been permitted to accept of - office ?- (Hear.) Had a`case - been made out in which the Legii-- Ixture. ougbt..te.t!,interfere, with regard to ,the .restrictions ,affecting dissenters ? He thoug no such . saSe had been aeitahliSheal"lii - the name of the ht uniVersity; of which he had had the honour of being for,Awenty 7 ;three- years Chan cellor--in the name .of. the_university which had rendered such. important service to the general education of the Bri- - tish youth--in the name of the university Which had for more than two centuries sent forth so many eminent men who had adorned that ttiAit- Rev. Bench, and had swelled, Rig lit . list of Men-Of science—in the name of that -university in which were. taught the, Divine doctrines upon which our coniolationhere, and the, hopes hereafter, rested, ho called upon their lordships not to sanction any alteration of the system Which had placed, the university on the 'proud eminence upon Wliccli'itstifid. -- (Hear; . hear. )' Ile had another petitidr4 also,i to present tro'..the.-same effect, signed is 735 boarders and tinder -graduates oot. of 1,100; and, if time hadbeengiven,intil i e would have'sigtied . the - ptitionl which he new moved to:be read. that I T , li h e e .p p et a it k i e on o t f ca then r e e E ad s a T t E le, a ng s t i h idli by in tl in ie c ;\ l i e n r g k. ,, ;he petition do lie upodthe tablg . ' be wishedt6add that it contained the signatures of eleven heads of houses, of eight. pr:OfesSOrs;'-andAtiiiity-nine titters. - - • . The TetrissiejOts..Dux *npresented the petition of 'the bachelors' and under-graduates, Which was likewise, read it length . -i, : ' r- : -. • . ._, • : Earl GREY :said the view which -he .took on the very . . • important subject now againintroduced,when he lastad 'dressed- their-lordships On presenting the . petition alluded . to brtheillustrious duke, he .(Eerl Grey:on that occa-• 'siOn addressed their lordships at Sortie length'ill support of . , .. IthAtiview, rand it was.nothisintention An: enter:into any ~argument upon the present occasion. The subject,-,Was, as the illUstrions duke 'had asserted, one of fiery great ini, portance to the public, and of still greater- inaportanbe- as respected the - interests of the- university, as the petition= reconireended 41 yery - differenci i edutse frosts - that p recora mended by - the preceding : petition. Probably a further occasion-would. arise when the subject would . be dis cussed, and for that period `he should reserve himself, , Nevertheless, ,he felt hiniSeff called .upon - in justice to state, with respect to those eminent persons , who hact 'signPdl t4a-- : -IYFtition, and particularly as it, was- I'm pnte.cl-,;t0," him by the . illustrionS- duke, - that the result` of 24.7elject wnich they had in view would be 'far-. difteient rioin what they themselves imagined. The object of their application, : their lordships would' re- , collect, was that, dissenters should be allowed the pri vileges- and degree'of baehelors of arts,' masters of arts; and., medical . :0. - pe..s,:"..Witheilt.. being ; subject to any re-- strietions onaceonnt'Of religions tests,Nothing beyond ._ ~.. .., this did - those petitioners ask ; theYthinight that in Making this application it would, if complied with, be attended' with beneficial consequences ; and could -it be imagined that these professors and - tutors; 'who had so deep an' in.: terest. in the stability of the establishment, who- were bMirid-to - it- by opinion, bound -by interest, bin more-em phatically _ bound by-duty—that- they would recommend .any:thing which Should - tend to weaken -or impair that. - institution ? All that'VtiS asked was that the disienters should have the Tights which the university grantedtti , the otheimembers, after being admitted,- and after having studied the accustomed period within its walls, he ' meant the In asking degreesfor tli t a o t lv:hch he had already ee i onldconfidentlysa madey,tliat llu the petitioners oners hi de gree nothingfurther injure from their i ordisturb ththe religiousntentions - p t r ha in n ci i p i - any l l es u pon which the establishment was -instituted. Having said this - he trusted that he had removed the impressions - which some passages in the. speech of- the- illuStrious duke 'were calculated to make, as ren - arded the firmer petition., Fur ther into the argument he (Earl Grey) `would not advance, but he would reserve himself- for another opportunity of going into the general question. But - there were 'other' points - - connected With the present petition which it-was necessary for him to- say one or two words upon:- , - The illUstrious' duke had correctly - stated, with that Candour and fairness to be expected Of him, the numbers that signed the petition; "now" resident, meaning resident -at the time of'- the petition being signed—the number being' two 'hundred anti fifty-eight; and that-the Other petition was sinned by 63 resident mernberS of the Senate. In the first - place; the ilhistrienia duke had truly asserted that the pet tion was signed by the petitioners then assembled-at-Cam, bridge, as members of thegeriate; but he did nottherefore Mean to represent them is riksident members, for the nurn - - , ber'exeeidedthe resident members. . He (Earl Grey) had been told that great pains had been used With 'a-'view of passing the grace which wia , proposed, and members were colleetO togethet for that puspose ; and therefore it was a, matter of no surprise that the- petition s h ou ld have been signekljn so shbrt a space as that named: But if the per tition were analysed, it would be found in reality to be signed by only about 193 members, who were properly re: - sident at the university. -Now,- of the first petition signed by 63 all were residents, and seven more were friendly to it who did riot sign it, and about',ls. perfectly neutral, so that the number might he increased from 63 to 70, as signing, or friendly - to it, ' and with the 15 neutral the number would. be 'B5. Now he would take the number as . 108 who-had signed the present petition who could net be said- to be resident ; and, if that number were deducted from , 193, it would rechice it to 85. Their lordships would therefore perceive that this was not a very large compara tive majority over those who had -signed the preceding one, 'especially when to that number who had signed the latter were added the numbers of those friendly to it,,orneutral.. 'lt w as far -from his wish to enter into any i nv idi ois t comparison, and he believed that the illustrious 'duke: would - not. deny that there were names among theie, who had :signed the first petition, who, by their knowledge, their, moral character, . and • their . abilities, .bUt, above all, in their love for the established church, yielded to no one. (Hear, hear, from the Duke 'of Gloucester.), Was - it to be believed that persons' of that deieription, in the situations which they filled, influenced, too,_ by the interests which naturally attached them to the stability of the institutions, thought that w h en they-were signing the petition they were doing that which would tend to - Create - the' mischiervehich the illustrious duke ascribed? Was it to be believed that they could sign a pe-• tition, which, if the were carried into effect, would go to destroy, not, only the principles upon which the esta blished church rested; but subvert the throne itself ? He (Earl GreY) could not come to any such concluSion. He had been anxious to state something in vindication of the other. petition which he had presented, and had 'already said more than he intended, but the importance of the subject must be'hiS apology. He should content - himself, on the present ,occasion, :without .detaining their lordships longer, in re .ferring to the opinions which lie had so recently urged - opinions which he had seen -no reason to change--and,, from his conscience, he firmly believed; that if the prayer of that petitiOn . were granted, instead of injuring the esta blished church, -it was calculated to remove the prejudices. which existed, to destroy the animosities and heart-burn ings which ' prevailed, and by so doing it Would give strength to.that church which it was his most anxious wish to preserve. (Hear, hear. ) The Duke of WELLINGTON said he could not avoid noticing so me o f th e observitiOns which had fallen from the noble earl. The noble earl had said that the prayer of the petition was not to give the power to the diSsenters which was stated in - thepetition, which had been presented : by the illstrious duke who had - preceded him, but that its only object was -to remove from the dissenters those dis abilities under which they now laboured in not being 'able to acquire degrees, and the other advantages in entering into the legal or medical professions.. Such he (the Duke 1 of Wellington) admitted was the apparent object (Loud cheers, from the oppositi on s id e ) ; b ut the noble ear l h a d 'eqpi out of sight one circumstance of most material import, namely, that when those persons should have obtained degrees they would necessarily become governors of those . corporations, and be in precisely that- state which the noble earl had said was a state in- which they ought not to be ; for they would be the educators of the youth of the country. The petition presented' by the . noble earl, on ,tl,w 4.44..Mare1i, . prayed that, certain, advantages be placed within tiltfßasii stf_ i thy Aiclttep . 1) ... a d init '.J .. might i ...t . .i11k&h,091.,.. ilotlf_esit/iAlPliticiiibut - L4giv.V to is '3tr.o innind, that,there were other modes for their obtaining IN - Cie , . advatiiiiteiliviiiiikti'4iaving -'Basing ziriost _objectionable,.!!,m(Hear,•hear)* for ; objectionable it was, „even in the 6 - Pinion of the noble earl himself; inasmuch as it l!iviulti give thete persons that according to the noble. • earl they, ought,not to have,--the government of the uni versifies. '(lfe - drt hear.) That was a measiire; however, ..ii hich woulditereafter come under discussien, and he could 1 , not therefore enter upon it then further than to say, that if such a' measure should be adopted by their' lordships, ,which God forbid: (Hear, hear) they must take leave of ' that object which the noble earl was so anxious to sus 'tain,the union-bet Ween Church - arriff , State, and- even, perhapa; the very existence of Christianity itself.- (Hear, hear.) 0 - n these grounds he should support the prayer of the petition. - --;;;--', .. • , _ - ... , The 1-0111) CHANCELLOR, said he felt jointly with his:noble - friend .di 'the head of the 'Government, and Akit4 the noble duke who hail just sat down, how much . inure -convenient it would be to abstain from,discussing the ques tion Until - another opportunity—an opportunity which he believed and' hoped would be speedily given. by having a measure sent up to them fpr consideration from the:ether lionSe of Parliament. 'lt Would then come before them in a I:tangible - form, ,and.until then he would have preferred.fol levon&the example of the noble _duke and of the illus. `tribittAltike'ilso, - who had presented the petition anti stated Mr sentiments thereon, if ,he w4mhi permit him to say so, with a degree of:ability, distinct ness, - and - impressive- Iness, not tii be sin-passed. -- Btit there n'Vere- one- or 4Wolof 'the subjects.tonched,Up,on,whigh he egidduntsuffer tppass =without. a few observations, : and - be cfniTd '. assure their :- liiiiiShiPs thatibeiiiOnlcl 'Confine !himself' tic; "the fewest "observations possible. ; .., In, theifirst,xlacei,,,he approved ; of l 'ilie' one line of argumetif"adOpt4bYthenoble duke (Web. lington), and' , also liyi th&jilluStriOuPtiuke'(`Glotieester), . He alluded to that winch they, Fling, cOnsistyntly. with w their avoed:Opiniens.;emea to; Pul,S.Torfli; as - it sort of lertiunt quid}' for: although loth' cl, the lioble'dukesiVere soldiers, ,yet,they well understood' the logical expression, which he need - not, therefOre; ' "apologise :for using. 'The third, or middle course, • appeared therefore to,oecupy.their attention, which could not fail to have amost ,peculiar re r commendation;'proceeding, as it did; f r om 'tfibse;'who held Suchhigh situations in the universities.,. ) Tim j4 . lfi said, why visit the, p un i s h men t upon th e parties who were not, the offenders,- part ieularlY-- as there were ether _Modes -fir the ihssenters to attain- - their: object s , without resorting to the abolishing of the subscription to the '39 : articles at the uniVersities? : The explanation ~t . the illustrious:duke .was.tbis,thatithere were other modes of obtaining degrees *Without t iding away withilie sithSesriptiiii; 'that there Were =other meitatifebtaining the degreek: of 'doctor.of law's, and other means, of obtaining medical ~degrees, besides obtain ing Iliein `thibitgli the universities, which could only be .donely.rneans of subscription to . the 39 articles.. ;In other Words ' . the meaning of the illustrious duke, and also of the - noble duke; was thisL—that - Power should be given to others _ OM .ther_universities:. of; oxford_ and Cambridge, : to-..eonfer degrees,. (" No, no," from the opposition side.) .He could draw; nO c btixteil'inference from what-had-ww from the il- Instriptis, guk,e . S.: .- (lzlear i. hear. ) 'That w_ textbefore them—.(Hear, hear )—and ' such was tbe -glOis which '' ins ' hthehlei , ra'Cultie.s. perinittedtitini , 'Lio 'ptit.-;-Upoti •it. (lIe042: and a - laugh. ) If other,more ree.ortdit ! ,per sons could,i - li disc Over aother - ,lrieariifig-:-if ' - their 'could penetrate:l4pm'; :than hiniSelf; and ,:sc‘areh outiL - a - ,ilit-- ferent interpretation, he .should be .glad to hear it; . but. in the - niearitiine he Was `'Confident -- that he 'rightly,-_ miderStPOd the.::illuStriotis dulte,4` for (saitthe) ., tvlrytgic to :the, nniyersities `;', , , Why nof, go to, Rif college of T ail hysl `s; 'and c emilPA`*theiii-io - giVe'tiegreeS 1 -i" -- -ritedicitie?" 4 h3r,' stbis.:Was_ the 'TYC6jpoirtt which .was sought to be.,at tained by the London University. ( Hear = hear.) The pe tition a •thatiiiiive , iiity had been already' plaeedlbefore his .A.lajesti; ',Nvhcrhad.".heen , , , raeieusly pleaSed'to order it 'tobe laid before his privy council, by Whom it would . ere - icing he 'taken) - into' consideration: Their linctiltips,- hOWeVer, had the authority that night of the moblelord and also that of the illustrious diike;.anil he (Lard IliOngliarii )'also _ad mitted 'the; fietlthaf the two petitienitO be laithbefote-the privy- council were not consistent with this ,better and sounder View (if the, ease. (Hear, hear. ) He quite agreed with the View-taken by the illustrious .duke, if' he correctly :understood that view, and, understand it he must halie dene earrectly for,, if not, 'let their lordships' mark the gross the.scaridalous, amid. unreasonable situation in which the universities placed,,themselves,• if they,. hold forth,. to theilfs'Se'nterS - that theY'-will not give- thern'degrees- as doctiirsl of lawl qr. medicine, mid yet that .z they j willj not allow, tlicm,t,p_ggt those degrees elsewhere. (I/ear, hear• 4). It - wa: - not in 'the 'Peiiii4.Of min to diViner:falythifig ,, More' shameful, unreasonable, or disgrattful,,en_ the part of the; universities, . than for them to say to -tlie 'tlissefiters,. a.:-We'fia've +tie pOVier of making you:doctors of :Medicine, but We will not, because you do, nat l . : worship- God as .we do, nor will we consent that thosetit the seine per,tta -iion as yourselVeishalrliavis the:Om:niter of conferring upon ,you the -..neee.ssary, degrees. ' Those who, would.:,beVc the iiewe; tiiiive yon degrees shall not obtain that peyver, lincl , weilib hive the power will not grant . - .:yott what --yeti desire!.' (Hear, hear. ) This was the very height and acltie -, of injustice; and - of Collegiate Monopoly: (Heat, hear.) For :his (Aviv; part, he venerated : those ancient establishments. He had not had the advantage of drink.ing of the fountains - Of 'Science within their-walls;` lie - -:ha4 'Studied, as far as he: was enoMede....o4 of those :walls-;:..ft'Vt' ,that very circumstance had led him to regard'With.a still More friendly attachment 'establiShinents-which had -such .strong_clairus upon_ the scientific world. He w ould just remind the house that ,the greatest man who hid:ever - minened-therhuman firaine—he Meant the. greatiNewton--: _was not a demonstrative proof of the propriety of subscrip tion.. tie had entered at atiine`Wilen - it'ikas "tinlikelk that subscription could:have been thought very requisite,:i Be' was born in the_ year 1641 . or 164:4, and, supposing thin to be 17 years of age when he entered' the university, that would'biing his matriculation to the'peried ofthe Corintion:: wealth—a period when it could scarcely be suppOsed• that the thirty-nine articles ve.re held-in• any great degree i 'of reverence. (Hear..) His (Lord . Brougham's) reverence .., none . for the universities' ,) ieldoci tu that of unt. of those wile had been educated Within. their ~..walls--not, evew-as:.;ie ;garde& their collegiate and university privileges thlit . seive: , . The noble duke (Wellington) appeared . to think ;that it was ;of the question: to. allow its dis i sentets to have our power, and he (Lord Brougham) supposed that the Manner in which the noble duke thought -they-would I hai - &power would be in the wr,:y of e ecclesiastical privileges I and fellowships—the independent care of :the education of yeilth, much clerical patronage; livings; arid:other eccle gastical preferments, which must come into the hands of the dissenters if once admitted into the universities. • He could' assure their lordships that while giving wa y to "such " ,arguments; they .were straining at a gnat and swallqw , ing a . camel. There was no fellow of a college ; there •Wisind. ' - eiAlege or university ;:there were no free ,eolleges posiess .-. in one half so much ecclesiastical . patronage as Was at ,tac'he4 to the ()Mee which he hail then the - honour - to hold. :He had the disposal. of .800 , or . 900 livings; and. of 19. or 20 ,stalls ; the appointment of a score of 'prebendaries and of 800:or 900 rectors, out all this without even gubSeribing =the' 39 articles. (Heir. ) : Ile would at least, speak for himself, and would say that he hadnever subscribed tht)se artieles. 'His predecessor had du ne so; but not , as Chan, eeller ; .he had..sobseribed to them. at .Cambridge. Lind Erskine might have subscribed them, "but not as Cliatujel tor, and Lord Lorighborotigh;ließbelieVed, , ltad never'sub seribed.to them. Lord Erskine WaS notoriously cif alp s byterian family, as stanch as any wh o had' eier signed ii, e nvenant,.and ' it:was met - very. likely, th ere fo re ,. t h a t ". that nobleman would be a zealous advocate for the 39 articles. It - was quite sufficientt - for his ptirpbse to remind their lordships , that a. man. might be Lord Chancellor :and be also a dissenter of any denomination. The law required no sub scription, no tesf; noeonformity from the . persim tilifieinied AS. 'Lord Chancellor. , There was no occasion for,his being, even a member of the established chinch. To affect alarni, therefore;' beeause 'some half-dozen 'dissenters', in the course of half a century, should be 'admitted to the universities, anti because one dissenter in the same spaee of time might be admitted as a fellow, and thus haVe a Vote in meddling with or g iving away church livings, , w hil e th e Lord 'Chancellor was allowed to deal wholesale with church, patronage without any subscription at .all,- , and :while - also• :the) Chancellor of, Vle duchy 9 c Lancaster and the Prime Minister were allowed . to tiiipose'Of;ecelesiastical prefer ments ; to all of which situations dissenter S-were eligible, —such alarm, he confessed, did appear to him to be a most disproportionate, Somewhat tinreaSenable; 'anti iiiconsisterit degree of apprehension.,-( Hear, hear. ) For . his :4siin• part,.he felt no alarm whatever.. lle thought it was for, the best interests 'of tho'clnirch 'and of the universities' also, that they. be founded in _the affections and con-. fidenee of the country ; and, no course, he thought, could be More certain of obtaining fer'therif the einifidenceof the country than the wise and tolerant course which had so nobly distinguished the administration of the noble ' duke (Welling-ton). ' He' referred‘to , the 'example . which that noble duke, had,. so happily 'for Ireland, and so meritorionslY- i for hirns e lf, h e ld out for future* itnitatieni ; ' and he trusted that a shnilar spi r it.of liberality would reign through. their- lordships' councils when the measureshe adverted to -shOulc, come betore then;.—((Hear, hear:) ' ' ' • • ' " ' The 'Linke of •WELLINGTON rose to explain:,;.!Thei , i petition which the noble, and- learned, lord adverted to had 110 . i-elation' whatever to the one 'before the house:-" The noble' lord had argued that, if the :universities would not. grant degrees to dissenters, they should enable some other learned'body to do so. The universities would-have no objection to .that---all they required being4hat- the yartiet receiving such degrees should not 'l;ear the same title a§ those' who' took 'degrees froni the uniVeriities. In -other words, the universities were anxious that,,there should be, no fraud upon the public ; and if that could be prevented they had no-o*;ection to cOncede-to them , tills the advantages' of taking degrees either legal, of medical ; but they did . object to their _having their privileges by taking- 'Ori • then the names of the university degrees. - The Bishop of LONDON concurred entirely. with his noble and learned friend as to the inconvenience of enter ing at length into the discussion- of this subject upon That occasion ; but still he ,could not resist the impulse - ta say a few words,' because it might, perhaps, 'be considded fex traordinary if, on such' arr occasion; none of the right rev, prelatesA that beneh•were to give an opiniOn.upon a sub ject necessarily interesting to the church. 'inked be Sliu not think h.should be domi his (tali' If he _did not a-word when the interests of the univereitieswere so deeply. involved. He had a good understanding with most .•Of the; -members of th-e.university of Ca,inhridge, and he hoped thet irriiiiy 'natters concerning the church and' the dissenters their lordships would net confel,! , ll i'' ,- vir)lent portion of the: "dissenters e,h h the lai'ee' , ... bed:, . e ;;., . , elscientiouslysought. relief. from. What they: conceive t to 1 e disabilities. , Ile -believed- that a - large hods- , the dissenqe's • did not concur in seeking adm:s , :on le 1:;e 11 , , V ':, , 1ii..,. (Cries of Heir, hear.") He Would rot,lissen:t.la What he helieved -to be the truth, that if churchmen and dissenters could be educated together,' the greatest advantages might result. There could be 'no fear that churchmen would become elis- Senters, and he believed there might - be great expectationi --that many dissenters would become chnichinen. If sonic such plan 'could be brought into operation without Much -ing on- the privileges of the Universities in the way pro posed; 'which was nothing less than an infraction of the rights, net only of the universities, but of every collegiate body 4hich was connected' with them,. if some arrange irl'ent could be devised by which dissenters could be ad milted to academical instruction and - to professional dc .green, it would be desirable ;' but then the manner of car rying it into effect should be left to the universities theme selves. There was no occasion whatever for Parliament to interfere. Ilis chief difficulty was in throwing open the doers . of the . 'Universities altogether. It was stated that many _dissenters had obtained academical. education,. and indeed, he knew many - who. -were ornaments to so eiety, and, some few of whom became at last ornaments to the established church: : As . 'hew, however, as they .could enjoy the benefits of.. .collegiate instruc tion by- connivance or ;by consent, so long the ,difficulties which lie was apprehensive of Would not arise," but as soon as the right was given to them, Weis it ,to be imagined that'sthey - worild'submit foeleat part-'6ll the disci- Witte which related to religious instruction, unless it should beehme so neutralized as teebe'eo longer deemed 'the reli gion of the established .clairch ? During the time he hod been in his profession lie-had eo-operated with the Dissen ters in many works of benevolence, but never in that Of. religious instruction, for in alreest every instance lie had' known of co-operation between members of different creeds in the task of instruction, the result had always beet: that both had seceded froM -the task, dissatisfied with the result of their eitertions. It - was inipossible to avoid con , troversial topics ; in -fact, every religious topic was contro versial, and it was-impossible to-steer clear of. them. In deed it was the duty - of a professor of- religion not to steer clear of them, and in their lectureS it would be impossible to steer clear of them. From this, moment : they should give the dissenters the right, of admiSsion to the universi ties, from that moment-they -would-refire to -conform' to academical discipline. (Hear, hear.y . He was son to hear the universities spoken of as they hid recentlY ince, though . he . was willing -to admit- that some change in their _regulations .might.te—adoptesl_witb advantA_ge. ' A .... great improvement had taken place in , the .university e ef Cami- - Lbridge,--or, .at least; 'in 'Trinity-. College at: Cambridge, to which he belonged: - The greatest - pairsiwerr.-:-taken ' to impress upon- the -:s - tudetits Alie' necessity of adheii ing te;the religious. discipline which was strictly enforced. As , soon, howiver, as- dissenters should be admiteed,• he '`feared tilatThis discipline must be ,brokqh through. (Hear," hear. ) Upon'a future occasion he shehld-give his opinion more' at length upon the'Subje'ete and de more ample justice to those able istructreeses of the youth ofthe country. lie was not prepared to consider every thing a grievance upchi :theeelltsenters:which. tended tg•.exclude them from the en jeYment .; of_ benefits which _belonged _exclusively to the - Church of England, particularly when the object of the - dissenters might be attained-by other and easier means. (Hear, hear.) . ~ The Bishop of GLOUCESTER said thatesiriceethe time of the Restoration this was not.the Oly effort Made to'procure degre e s w ith ou t a su b sc ripti o n to the Thirty nine Articles. Alban Francis, in the time of James IL e received an appointment as in-ovost - from 'the-King -with out subscribing to the Thiisty;-.nineietrticles. Cambridge re sisted. the appointment, and-a.-nit,tee wa,.,apppintOd tecinaintain the' rights of ' then `tiiiiversety,-in - a-discussicin with the Crown. - It was - 1 curious fact that one of tile' Meese jeromineilt laereliets ot flat.: cormnittth'iv i ffi Isaac ' „Neeetee, who, must haye subscribed, therefore, , ,te_ the,39 • - eit tlefes' himself.' - The right rev. pielife tii&M-Iniieil io ! resistance ow the part of_ A : mitnied oft the gepyte,toen grace, andbeee testimony to the excellence °this eh - eraSer. He had no doufit'but that intlividiihr -liajiiketi Aiiseten- - tiously, . although he ; tievses aefreepebered „en einstense in Which a petition had beeti - beroreinfeeteel: Hedieri-ecoje, lecethat . ari aildreis:ioFtlgi.:Woevn" tiplor3Pthe7eldelli;"eflAlt. -Perceval, haelebeeu similarly : obstructed liteeet.eitidividulit -On political grounds, itidlie - aThe recollected that 'aitiehlrei , k had been similarly resisted' ere: - the.suppression .of :Alm 1•6-" hellion of llie-, hut upon a mere, petition,,,be believed, the act was unexampled. - - -' ' - `1 "' L "' ' ' The... Bishop . of EXETER - -:said. hee.. - ha.riot: been ede- - . cated in the save , goiv_ersit.y,pc the right rev. prelate near • km (the Bishop of Lopdoe)„whe was so earnest, in whlt : he had doubt bitt that he -believedfe be the rest- truth. :I,n p. 1 . 1. that bad 7 fallen L , filim`ll . l4-yight rev. prelate lie (idly concurred, and he thanked him for expreSsing„so eloquently- ' -all that he (the BiShoi-Of-Eketer) felf,lent which he-could not have expressed sowell. Tile right rev. prelate had ex presSed a hope That seineinethed might hedeViSed for the ad- - mission , Of - dissenters' to he-educated -in the - universities.: :Now. he (the Bishop, of .Exeter) would not , sey, whether Such - a - Measure Might Mot - be - grafted arithe university of Cambridge, and if it could beso engrafted,:bylio one . could it be done with- more eafety than by his right rev.. friend.: But, as a member of the university of' Okford e he should 'noteonceal. hiLowu deep-rooted_Conviction; that it was et telt, impossible that any such measure could be adopted in that university consistently with 'the oithe'4ich were ree quived of those lOW Were intrusted : with its„goyernneent. The university of Oxford differed from that of Carnhridke very' essentially, for at the ' university of - Oxford no ' one ~ceuld-be even matriculated without subscribing, to the. 39 ArtiCles. He had heard some sneers throWn out at this relegLeheladleard it-Said that' it Waili solemn ni6ekWv for ,pereote4 . - . only : 16 ! yeats; of age ,to sign these - Articles: -He should, indeed, agree that it was ridieulotis'to do so if the - 'enb seripti on implied that _the par ty knew What tli6y eii*i n d'.l and believed them to I),e ttue. Such, llowever i : ; $' not the case. The •Subgetiptien was only tantamount ; 6-' ,§aying.that -the, patty: tabSeribing. telonged to . . the esta-; ' ,blished church. He perceiye.dfiie.,eoble andlearned lord "to be in - some' aStottishitientat whet he had jest - said, but 'thes_fact 7 was so.: Brsilesaelps4ente after ~ the Reforma tion pet: one .was allowvd to be , matriculated without sub 4Seriptiou to 'the stliirlyenngaiiieleS. Subsetpientles, how ever, still: more *as : - required? -.When they, _applied foe' degrees, they were obliged to declare their belief in All those articles, and:Vhat•• they were agreeable to , the law! of : God. Thisehoteever,, was not all- The statute required that they should be instructed, and it w-as an essential 'pet of-education that 'illy Aiould be -Instructed in the thirt v nine articles. In 'coned - pence, however, of .;the process; of -corruption in the course,of ages, this systeeiwas.neglected, until at length the university of ii4''oviii'deceid'Undertook . to reform its own abuses; the tutoreseid othershaving ells .gracefully neglected then' citifies. , About thirty-four years ago,":a -statute: paSsed' re,ndering •it • imperative that the thirty-nine articles sheuhl be suliscriW,,ezel making the thirty-nine articles ae essential part 'of The examination prior to 'obtaining a degree. if they foetid a candidate kkof well acquainted with the thi r ty- n i ne ar ti c l es h e was hot permitted to go on with the examirittien. The niliVersitel Of Oxford, the : term,. could .not deviseaey mode of admitting dissenters, for_useenee e er he admiolt,fitreeelifdtioplrml.r.soioicitubah:o,eijutugttigoosdito.taecitoctsh- stating, r eill.gi. i 1 .. g ,s his readiness to adopt t e discipline of . the university bp' sUbseribing to ,to, thirty-nine- etrtii.lei. l ": ' Ile itetild name one .or two diethiguiehed..individeals ! Niue f, had,been c is ,' giacedfor not heing acquainted with thethirtY-nine articles. He 'could mention -a- distingeished righelien.- ' - g - entlern n e and he'could also name one of . the most distinguished Le 'lesophers of the'day, Who had' been thii4 diSiraeed for of 4 being acquainted with :that-which was the most important branch of all knowledge. - He was proud to think that the university of . Oxford eeforined itself withont any impulse whatever from. withou - L •He -did :not -wish .to ,trestiass . longer on their lordships' time, but there were one or two points which he could not help adverting' to. He appre hended that this, was an application to admit . dissenters teethe benefits arising from Admission to - the universities: kwas not an apPlieation'to'relieve , dissenters from any grievances under. which they laboured, but it was nothing less than an application to persecute the Church of Eng . land. (-Ng, no.) - rile was aware that he had used a strong expression, but the proposition amounted to this—that it was not to be in the power of any set of individuals to form- an institution' for the purpose of , giving to Members ,of the , Church, of England the best Pos sible instruction, 'but' that other indiVidiiala must have a e.iiine to share in the advantages. He should: contend that neither the crown nor the two houses of parliament had the privileges 'of the uniethisities. Ile *at sere the fivo' houses ;of parliament would-not de that which they had not the right tr encroach on . the , privileges of the right to do, even though they. poSsessed the rower. 3-le denied that-they-had the right IQ: do:what -,was how called' for, and lie would state his reasons for that - denial. .)ii every conititutional; every legal, and 'every eqtiitable Prin ciple, where a corperation wee established for specific pur poses, the law of England and the legislature 'would resist any attempt to break in upOti that eorporation, incany other ground than that its members neglected the duties for which they were incorporated, or because the purposes for which:they-were embodied, either were originally, or had become lies. subsc quent enactments, illegal,, superstitious; or in Other respects deserving of condemnation. That was a.- principle which- no- Englishman of common understand int/ would hesitate one moment to admit. Now, was it . alleged' that the universities, or any' of their colleges, had itli other wiser c y i fci e ond o r n t hteehemeii instance neglected o t it a t}rr n ipop ci eat- HeOfecsupsipacite t t h ! e tio . anaii.4.l:ll,3,llt.alleds abusedwhib de ttl i e so is lv p e ri d on cation.tliat ito Then.m a n had h :i s a e e ik or d w o o il u I \ d chha r at i steiirpt pretence enri nr ic k pel e ew s u owu d oi s tu: a .d i p i aatd:ceivai their lordships daro--- he,mut be ,pardoned for Using 4rotig lan guage on an occasion in which so many important consi-: ' &rations were involvede=on 'A. de stroyne o , c n , every dare oi at to 0 0 t l n i i s i n n t es:l 4 ;i i k u t e c :t s lle a 7i i ) e e r c i n " a c t l ti n- d i t e h ofe sacredness leeeked to o oh s .? The-members of the University of OX , ' 4 ..,,,,;-...,........-...„.i;.-4,, l lt i tli d " h i ti - 2 1 . ,u ,A pp 'or u l . l4o ,th ob e,y ey , I : 7 1: 1 4 k at e u e t pe:itieTr „, Q , a tthhcel: .Iptli the. i, • ii c c of Parliament had 444. 440 0 riiarawc; avr st tle .4(11120"a- It His, but flew hail not-powee-to make the members of Altofc bodies Taith tqstrth :duties thby lad , aworn, toidis -11-4;a4*- 'bad passed-many, tnany , ,yeaTs in clOse text, nection \vith those bodies, and he was.prepared`to Sa.Y from hat he Li=eu of them 'that there scarcely one :mall I, longing to theM—Certiinly there were - rat many-L-who j s - 6uld not be prepared _to meet any eonsequehees rather than become patties - to the desecration Of ' \that v:rs I,,t,st - sacred, and the spoliation of ' - '4vhat they- had- leng I- been- aCcustOmed consider peculiarly their own - . One thing had 'Occurred to-night -for which he was not prepared, and which had given him great gratification,-1;e incant the presentation of the second „petition, which 'the iilnstrious duke hatilaid on the table. Like the illustrious ,lake, he (the Bishop of Exeter) was not disposed to en courage persons on state pitpillari in Coming to Parlia ment with the - expresion of their opinions on any matters I, l l c :, f ihei l sc e vh g i i . s tt l t a ho t a i nb li t c cih o e n ad s m i , d ot e is iion ;- but when-their own best M- I crests were concerned—when- that reit - ion was at stake, valuablea fel t to ri b os e. s t es lit- o -d n ea w r e es c t o ; u a l s d -w e - e n i i6 al y l --when its interests were struck-at; he thanked - Goa that the members of those-betties had' the courage to come fot ward ; he rejoiced at Was one .of the redeeming points of the times, and with such an- example before him he hoped should be pardoned for applying the words of Ito. !leathen poet to the present ease-, " Di patrii,-quorum semper4ab-numine Troja est, Non tamen omnino Teueriai'delere paratis, . Cdrn tales animos juveiniintet tam ecru tulisti Pectora:" "- - The LORD- CHANCELLOR said that the right rev. prelate had put forward that which had certainly astonished him, and'he had no doubt .many of their Lordships' also. re had put - forward something-4 doctrine, and somethilig Orthe disbelief of ethit doctrine—at one time, that all- Was another time, that nothing was to be k;elieved—at one period, that there was to be a worse.than ti eless fornr—a ceremony professedly sacred, praCtically 'unmeaning- , at another, that implicit -faith was the only Possport to honours and. dignitiesi"He had put forward that youth-at-the universities begin -by subscribing what t'-hey -could not then undeiStahil,' and *ere afterwards'-to learn= that'tliis had longbeen the practice, and ought= to continue as the-practice: -'Well, how, if that was-trues-L.-if what had been stated as the custom was genuine, he thitst say, that a more 'cluinsy invention had never been dis covered by-human brainss , :tiO Matter what brains, lay or cleriCal, academical or otherivist-than this, which eatl.-a On a - person to profess'a - -doetrTne which he did not under stand—to swear to thirty-nine prepositions of metaphysical principles, NI-hid:Ole - had !lei* . studied, - - to play with-gni:li a subject, insfeac of.writing foes lines: of plain English, declaring hiMself a meinbet"'hf-the church of Englar4 as by law established. - He- thtsught this-bad indeed-•=le looked on it as a- cloak to hypoetiiy--4s the ally of casuistry --as-a trap-for tender eonscienees-4S a :desecration - of The holiest subject on which the mind of mail could dwell ;Alit if it NN - S' a-desecration before, now that it reared- itseltup in all its native deforinity before his eyes, he regarded it as the Very refinement of subtlety and casuistry—as the elOak for hypecrisyriif the vilest andcoarsest nature. - The Marquis of SALISBURY rose to order. The-rule of their kin:l:ships' heuse alleWed a noble - peer to explain" any Observation of his own which had been- Misapprehended ; brit the noble and learned-lord, instead of Confining him self-to this, ,was'makitig a violent attack, -of a-very unt's iifiable character, on one of the Most remarkabl e institu tions of the countrV: - The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was a good rule, worth any fifty he had ever- seen in that house, that befbre me noble peer called -another noble-peer to order, he shOuld have some knowledge—some faint glimmering of a speaker's meaning. - -He meant no attack--on that venerable institution—he meant 'no attack on: itupporters or de fonderS--,hemeant no attack— : !2. . :„ Lord -WYNFORD—I rise to order. The -LORD -CHAN - CELLOR—And'to do I - thitie move - that-I've theright-to_ciihtinue my explanatietWil if that won't do I'll'Move an -tiMetalment. • Lord WY.NEORD—Uni - afraid you'll find that edit - Fin't move -- an amendment. - - - The LORD CHANCELLOR—Then I'll finish Any - explanation. Lord WYNFORD--If you wish to move ent -you can't do it,. for t c h m e n . time ►iot. i g . o a ii p e pe 'b a y l ! w ti m i7 iitib ri‘pe ie r time was afthe dose of•your first speech : You cannof do it otherwise. No, you and learned friend himself to the great doctoegVordef in tliF4 house__A appeal to him .-to -say U•liether; Ste ther house— - - - L.:44 4.0 The Duke of RICHMONIXL-I-rise to order. -= The Bishop of. EXETER-:-A *Ord in expl ana ti on . - The Dtiree'irlf'BlCElMOND-'-acd ; , Iri , e to order. The 'right rev. - Prelate"alluded in -his' speech to Inv tioblo and learned friend personally, and: in these cases'it is always 1 1 ,: tia l to allow noble lerdsto-go fully into explanation. The noble duke - opposite (Wellington) has spoken twice in, the i The Duke of WELLING'FON—I rise to order I` to explain: The Duke of RICHMOND—But I'm speakingio order, I - am only anxious; mylords, that my noble and• learned friend should have a fair opport unity of : explaining ; instead of Which he is called the great doctor of all.- (Laughter. ) My lords, the Loid Chancellor Iris nothing more to. do with order in this house than any one noble lord in it he has.fio6 more claim than I to put all right---and he-the doctor. By way ofputting all right, however, Frnove that this house do now adjourn. . •- {The confusion here became very great, the Lord Chan cellor straining his-voice to the highest piteh.'}- • The LORI) CHANCELLOR—The .question before thisliouse—the question before this house stands The-originaltbui,t— question before this hous e 'i s , " t h at the peti tion do lie upon the table ;" since which it has been moVed " that this house do now adjourn." Several PEERS—No, no, - The LORD:CHANCELLOR—Now:I can - 'spealiP I must Simply express my regret that I Should have to inflict ant - thing on your patierice-; but I will relieve .your -lord ships' apprehensions, for I will not say one single Word by way of speech. I have said sufficient to express My asto niShrtient at the doctrine of subscription which has been laid down to-night, and now I will-only congratulate our lOrdships that youican boast of living Witnesses of thettnew and prosperous..'era which has dawned upon this house in reference to its orders. Since I have had the honour' of a seat in this house, which is now three years, I never fdund the latitude of debate interfered with. I always looked, a, your lordships did, upon an explanation as a kind of privi leged second speech The Duke of WE L-L ING T 0N..--No,. The-LORD CHANCELLOR—Why perhaps the n04...‘ duke does not look • omit as such but he certainly pracn tises it. How-ever, he--hoped for the future they would al/ agree to confine themselves strictly to explanation. I, sill say no more than assure my noble and learned friend (Lord Wynford), , who is not yet upon the woolsack (Laughter) that till he attains that distinction, which, as your lord ships all know he so well MeritS, 'and probably very greatly covets I(Laughter), I will only assure him, that even for the little 'space Which he-thinks I hate to fill it ere I.roake Way for him—even i for that little space I have no disposi tion • to play- the•doctor, , or the tyrant, or the quack; for each moble peer in this-house has Just as mud' power as I have. Now, I -will.only oxpress7 Yny'satisfaction,thatheiice forward we arc to have orderittour proceedings. 7ThelXil . ce of ) 1 W EL L INg K01',4%741,..4 W4,11'0 , 041 - fled lercphas argu 4 l4, that not only tit-alight, but on former oe eakous, I ,have made Secoilitspeeehes,--1, say, I never did. Fgran t . r was bordering - on= iviliiii - everring,• but.Lknowing the bad precedent_ that might - be set, I immediately s t o p pe d riitself. I again deny the Is,titti*i6it of the- noble and learned lord on the woolsack. The LORD CITANCELLOR-It does not -folloVir be, cane the noble duke denies what I say;- that he 4 k i et t guilty of it: I have often heard persons deity things: - )xery, strenuously, that it afterwards appeared the,yhad eeOstfintly. been in the guilty practice of. (Laughter.) E„Xplan4img, in my view, is not replying to what an oppo4ent 'sayst explaining, putting in a clearer and more 4 fiucd..foriCwhat yon have yourself said. If in the ether house • I hadSsaid one-twentieth part in explanation of Nvhb.t 'hive heafd in . your lordships' house, -I have no doubt I 'should have s !been, hailed with•reiterated cries' of " Spoke, spoke," bef(ire had got to the end - of my first speech. The Duke of WELLINGTON --What I s. d w its, I never in explanation made use" of a new arg' : .,ritent. Again I say I never did, and again I deny wh at J the noble and learned. lord says. . The Lord Chancellor, the D':.ce of Cumberland, tlllklats, quit of Londonderry, and th', .Bishop of Exeter alFrose at thu same time, the cOnfusiiin in the house being verv-great, The Bishop of EXETER- - --1 said that the subscription of the 39 artielei: by a youth at 'the early age of 16 could only, by a person of common arose, be taken as an antho rity that he belonged to that - church, and that his belief in the doctrines of that church must be left to a TirO* ad vanced age and a more matured understanding.' -, d ra l l , s• li ( 73: I T: g e n nisdmoefnLALlSßUßY—The .praetie,:.." Nihicft The Duke of RICHMOND—I now beg leave to *Wl dofleatrhneedl-illodsrtdon has a b r e l e , i ci t r it e E p:eh a e n ticl i e t d he ltaS al b ar ee ci n uis in o t f lu L lg o l ino by none more than the noble lord who presides over his DONDERRY (with great4ehe lllajestv's government. • toggetete;TartqhueisfoorfmLerovive way, . ' - •Nb : DY , E T R - -R 'z ii : raonsde bmeeelincteh),:htleio:o,ob:e: has been guilty of one of the most uncourtcons acts; and that ever-I witnessed. The LORD CIIANCELLOR---I certainly don't sup pose the noble- lord who spoke last Means—but if Ito does mean lam sure he will not succeed—to make a' per the unparalleled '.b6 sc l 'e s t a i c e l s : soPtii quarrel between the two Chancellor; (the Duke of Wellington is Chancellor of Oxford). The noble' lord speaks as if I denied a fact stated by the noble duke. 'I did not deny a fact—what I denied was a matter of opinion. I suppose there is some difference between the two, though all of us, perhaps, can't see it. The Bishop of DURHAM said a few words, whiertwere ina'adible. The Duke of GLOUCESTER'mOved that the petition should lie on the table, which was agreed to, and the house 'adjourned: • i . .. ..,.:.:,.4,....- L.... ..,...5, .-1 .--4,., .- ~ „ _ -: -Xi ,r h I . r