The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

I I I. time, ke sen— Some e Lord correct overn. !.f Bill, itipport it mea- desire to de- ition is infident -(Hear, )ng and fairly re that lie Ben- ions has the de een fol of their List. I of par t I cer- fainly heard it ; and whethar it were or were not by con t. parties certainly dad unite, Ministers were left in a traraviry, and we thought proper to resign. This I beg I-ave to state, however; that the question of Parliamentary Reform hid no more to do with our re , ignation that it had to do with any other part of my conduct. We were out-soted on Monday, and next morning I resigned ; and for this reason ; I would not expose his Majesty and the country to the inconvenience of being out-voted on the subject of Reform in Parliament. There is the truth. I repeat it : we resigned on Tuesday, because we did not choose to expose the King and the country to the incon venience of our being defeated, as we should probably have been, on the question of Reform.—(Hear.) We resigned because we did not enjoy the confidence of the House of Commons, and it was not worth my while to continue in office a day longer with the chance cf being again out voted. I now come to the circumstances under which his Majesty's present Ministers came into office. On the first thy the Noble Earl came down to this House and stated, that he took office upon three principles-1. Re trenchment-2. Peace-3. Parliamentary Reform, As to the two first—retrenchment and peace, there is, I ap prehend, no difference between the Noble Earl and myself. It has turned out that not a sixpence is to he retrenched by the Nob!e Earl and his colleagues ; and they have, I believe, admitted that in point of economy we have done all that could be done. As to peace also, I hope I may say that the Noble Earl found every thing in such a train as to enable him to avoid hostilities with all the world. Upon some minor points there might be differ ences ; but this I must oberee, that rather than run the risk of putting the Noble Earl in a situation of difficulty, I never would consent that even a question should be put to him here regarding our foreign relations.—(Cheers.) No man desires more earnestly than I do the prosperity and permanence of the Noble Earl's Government—not, indeed, out of personal attachment to himself but out of regard to the interests of the country, which must be ma terially injured by rapid and sudden changes.—(Hear.)— Next, as to the third point—Parliamentary Reform. It seems that the present Ministers obtained the consent of the King, and the King's name has been used upon the ques tion not only by persons who were not authorised, but upon improper occasions. True it is that they have the sanction of his Majesty for this particular measure; but to say that the King is bound for more than following the recommendation of his constitutional advisers, is holding language improper in this place, and I believe not exactly founded in fact.—(Hear, hear.) Let us look, then, first, what the measure ought to be ; and secondly, what it is. It ought to be a measure to enable the Government to carry on the service of the King in Parliament ac cording to the Constitution established at the Re volution. His Grace then proceeded to examine how the Constitution had worked, as far as regarded the House of Commons, from 1688 to the present time. He contended that the business had been carried on most satisfactorily by a conjunction of persons of pro perty, talent, and knowledge of all kinds, representing all th e great interests of the kingdom, and that for 140 years they had promoted the prosperity and maintained the glory of the British nation. If, then, such a House of Commons —so constituted and so gifted—were to be destroyed, it was the duty of Ministers to take care that it was suc ceeded by a representative body which would give to the King's Government the necessary support. His Grace then examined the provision, of the Bill, especially as it regarded Hampshire, and the towns of Winchester, Christ church, Southampton, and Lymington, and a number of other places that would not he represented excepting in the general mass of the representation. With regard to the great body of the electors, he observed that they would be chiefly shopkeepers; and he asked lel:ether it was fit that they should be the persons to return Members to the Great Council of the Nation, which was to take into considera tion the domestic, foreign, colonial, landed, commercial, and manufacturing interests in the nation.--(Hear.) He had heard of the establishment of a Committee in London to point out proper Members for the great towns in the country. He did not believe that it was already formed ; but he did believe that it could be constituted ; and then he wished to know whether it was fit that such an uniform sy stem of representation should be adopted, as would enable a Committee in London to dictate Members for Leeds or Manchester ? He adverted to what, of his own know ledge, had occurred in France on the subject of the election law since 1817. Two charges bad subsequently been m ale in that law, and two general elections had taken place, each more unfavourable to the Government ; and the result had been the formation of a Parliament with which it was impossible for any Ministers to co-operate.— He denied that he had been in any way connected with the French Ministers ; that he had ever written to Prince Polignac ; to Charles X., previous to his abdication ; or to any Member of the French Cabinet, without the knowledge and participation of his colleagues. He would, therefore, tell the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, that he had no more to do with the French Government than the Noble Lord himself—pet haps not so much.--(Laughter.) These pro ceedings in France had rendered a revolution inevitable. He wished that the House would advert to what was the business of Government in Parliament. The business of the Go vernment went to everything. It was not long since they had heard the Learned and Noble Lord on the Woolsack propose on his own account a new judicial system. He could tell them that it would be impossible for the Go vernment to decide on that question ; but if there was a Reformed Parliament, it would be found that the Noble and Learned Lord would be too strong for the Govern.. ment on that question. Iu the same manner there was not a question affecting the trade, manufacture, or the Corn Laws, that was not especially the business of the Government ; and he wanted to know how the Govern ment would be able to carry on those questions after the Parliament had been returned in this manner? With re spect to the question of tithes and of the Established Church, much difficulty would present itself. The duty of Government on this head appeared to him to be clearly pointed out. In the first place they had the King's Co ronation Oath ; in the next they had the Act of Union with Scotland and the Act of Union with Ireland, both of which required that the Church of England should be the Established Church in England and in Ireland. Now he wanted to know how the Established Church was to be maintained after the election of Members of Parlia ment was to be placed on this footing ? He did not wish to carry the argument further than it would go, but the affairs of Government were so complicated, they were so bound up with Acts of Parliament, Charters, and Cor porations, that it was quite impossible for a Ministry to go into Parliament, unless they were certain that they had with them a majority to support those establishments. He inferred from all this, that the Constitution of this country could not, in a reformed Parliament, be carried on as it hitherto bad been carried on. lie did not mean to say that the Crown of England would not last. It certainly might be re stricted to the army, the navy, and the ordnance, but the rest must be left to the House of Commons, which would not be the Constitution as it now existed. He was sorry that on this question he had to differ from some of his friends ; but feeling no other desire than that his services might be of use to the country, he considered that there was no necessity for him to conceal his opinion; and he wished to God that he could convince the Noble Earl and his colleagues of the error into which they had fallen. He, however, had the most entire conviction, from all the exa mination and experience that he had been able to bring to the subject, that the country would be placed in the greatest peril if the Bill wee passed in its present shape. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that it would be easy to believe him when he stated that he had nothing to do with Prince Polignac or Charles the Tenth; nor with their adversaries had he anything to do further than ten dering. his humble opinion, in conjunction with the liberal party in this country, expressing a hope that they would lean to the side of mercy. Earl GREY said that if he had consulted his own ease, he should not have addressed theie Lordships; but there Were some points in the speech of the Noble Duke, which he thought required observation. He would begin by ex pressing the same wish which the Noble Duke had ex pressed towards him. He wished to God that he could convince the Noble Duke of the error into which he bad fal len. The Noble Duke thought that they were in error ; he certainly thought the contrary ; but which was right titne alone could show. There was, however, this pre sumption on his (Lord Grey's) side, that there was hardly a man in that House, or the country, that did not allow that some change was required. The point, however, to Which the Noble Duke remained pledged was, that the thin g was perfect as it stood—that with all its abuses it was counterbalanced_ in a great degree by the benefits it had con ferred on the ceuntry; that those abuses were an essential part of it, and that if they were to be corrected or re tracted, it wou ld put an end to the glory of t h e coun t ry . In this opinion, however, few men would be found to con cur, and th e N o b le Duke himself had confessed t h at h e lx 'as o bli ge d to lament that he could not concur with many of those with whom he had been in the habit of acting; indeed h e (L or d G rey) did not know that the Noble Duke had stated that there was one with which he could concur. Ile (Lord G rey ) h ad not heard from any one, and certainly not from his Noble Friend (Lord Wharn (lifre), that it would be p oss ibl e to reform with safety', without making some attempt to restore satisfaction and confidence to the people, by giving them a share in the r epresentation of the country, from which they thought that they were unjustly deprived. The Noble Duke bad Stated that the consequence of the division against the late Government on the Civil List had arisen from a onto bination of the parties. He took it as indicating such a want of confidence on the part of the House of Commons, that he thought it necessary to resign—not because tin Committee was carried, but because he felt it to be his duty, as a good and loyal subject, to save his Sovereign the difficult, and, perhaps, dangerous situation in which he might be placed if the question of Parliamentary Re form was introduced. If this, then, was the case, it was on account of the subject of Reform that the Noble Duke had resigned.—(The Duke of Wellington signified his dis• sent.) He had been stating the Noble Duke's own words. The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he had deter mined to reign, because he l.ad not the confidence of the House of Commons. He might have remained longer in office if the question of Reform bad not been to come on on the Tuesday ; but deeming that lie was bound to re sign, he determined to do so on the Tuesday, and he cer tainly chose the Tuesday on account of the motion for Reform. Earl GREY had already stated the observations of the Noble Duke as they struck him, and the only difference appeared to be, that, having determined to resign, he hastened it to avoid the time when the question of Parlia mentary Reform might have been carried.—(dear, bear.) There could be no doubt that there did exist a strong feel ing in f a vour of Parliamentary Reform (from whatever f. source it might have been derived) among the people of England, and the Noble Duke hail stated, that if he re mained in office, he had lesson to apprehend that it might be decided in a way adverse to his wishes. The opinion of the necessity that there was for Reform, had not pressed itself upon his mind then for the first time ; for on the first night of the Session be had had a strong feeling on the subject, and the Noble Duke could not forget it, for it had produced from him that declaration which had so astounded the country. He could not have forgotten that he (Lord Grey) on the first night of the Session stated, that one of the best securities and defences to which the Parliament could resort, would be to take measures for such a Reform of the House of Commons as would restore that confidence on the part of the people on which alone the security of the Government could rest. Anti he would ask if it was possible fur him (if he meant to maintain any character for aristocracy) to take office on any condition but that of being allowed to state to the Par liament, and propose to the country that which had been before stated to he:necessary for the security of the country? But the Noble Duke had alluded to some declaration which he (Lord Grey) had made in 1817—he did not know on what occasion. The Noble Duke seemed to think that the declaration which he then made proved that his opi nion then was nit the same as it was now. He (Lord Grey) would not undertake to recollect every thing that he had said during the period of forty-five years that he had occupied a seat in Parliament. But he was so confident in the principle that had regulated his opinion —he was so confident of the consistency of the views he had entertained, and that he had never swerved from urging the necessity of Parliamentary Re form—that he would maint Lin, without fear of contradic tion, that he had never said anything that was contrary to that opinion, or adverse to the question of Reform. If he had rightly understood the Noble Duke, his (Lord Grey's) declaration related to the benefit arising from the present House of Commons ; but be had no objection to say now, that with all its faults (which so far from helping it to work well, impeded its motions), it was still, taking it altogether, the best legislative assembly in the world. But it was because he thought that the effect for which it had been formed would be produced in a still greater degree, that he proposed the present measure ; for however good it might be, he could not shut his eyes to the great and noto rious defects which had been proved to exist—especiallywhen those defects were more and more felt by the people, and were producingweakness and insecurity where there ought to be strength and security. The Noble Duke had said that he felt no difference between them as to peace ; if the Noble Duke meant (and he did not mean to insinuate that he did not mean it) that his desire was the preservation of peace, there certainly was no difference between them. But the Noble Duke had taken credit for not having asked any questions calculated to embarrass the Government. He was sure that the Noble Duke too well understood his duty to put questions in the very delicate and difficult situation in which he must have known that the Government was placed —and even if they had been put, he (Lord Grey), at least, too well knew his duty to have answered them. lie claimed credit for having endeavoured to preserve peace, but at the same time he begged to assure their Lordships that be never would sacrifice anything that he believed to be es sential to the honour and welfare of England. With respect to retrenchment, he certainly had not been able to do all that, under the circumstances of the country, it was his most anxious wish to do. He begged their Lord ships to recall the situation in which the present Govern ment had found the country. There was every reason to apprehend that the peace of Europe would be disturbed : at home the greatest distress prevailed in the manufac turing districts; and in the counties round London the districts were in a state of open insurrection. What the measures of Government lead been the country had seen, and he trusted that they had not been found deficient in the performance of their duty. This situation made it impossible for them to adopt any great system of retrench ment. In the state of Europe they could not diminish their army or navy. In the state of domestic affairs, and considering how the military force was divided, it had been absolutely necessary to make an addition to it ; and the Special Commissions that had been issued had of course been a source of expense to the country. Never theless, he thought they had a right to take credit for having done a great deal under the circumstances. The Pension List had been reduced frnm 159,600/. to 75,000/. though it haul been thought not right to deprive those that actually possessed this charitable allowance, which, in most instances, was worthily bestowed. In ti•at Pension List, however, he had no share whatever, or at least the only one that he had recommended was one that was granted in 1806 to the widow of Mr. Fix. In the Post-office, which was under the management of his Noble Friend, who, he must say, was one of the most efficient public officers the country haul ever had, there was to be considerable reduction ; no less than from •10 to 50 principal officers, and from 50 to 60 inferior ones being cut off, by svhich there would be a saving to the country of 20,000/. In addition to this, many other savings had been effected in other departments; and he thought that be might appeal to the country, whe ther he had not done all in the way of retrenchment that was within his power. The last remaining point, was that of Parliamentary Reform. 'Die Noble Duke in speaking on this, had complained that the name of his Majesty had been unduly used ; he had, however, admitted that the Government had not used it beyond signifying that the King's consent bad been given to the measure, and that it was quite impossible to suppose that the intro duction cf it had influenced any of the votes in the other House of Parliament. In this he thought that the Noble Duke was quite correct ; and all that could he assumed was, that the measure had been submitted to the King, and that his consent had been given. But was this un constitutional? Were not measures often introduced by message or by speech, even before they were introduced to Parli iment ? He thought, therefore, that the Govern ment stood clear from any improper use of the King's name on this subject. But he could not forget how the Noble Duke, on a former occasion, had turned round to an Illustrious Duke, and said that he could confidently assert that the measure he was then proposing had the consent of the late Sovereign. He did not, however, wish to build any vindication on what had been an improper precedent : but at least the Noble Duke would remember this in mi tigation of what he had charged against them. The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he had passed no censure. Eerl GREY had understood the Nob'c Duke to say, that the King's name had been used, and certainly he had understood that as a censure. But much stress had also been laid upon the Government having threatened the Parliament. They bad held out rte threat—they had in tended to hold out no threat—they were not authorised in holding out any threat. All that he would say was, that he thought this measure, such as it was, recommended by the Ministry, would be of the greatest importance to the country ; to that measure he was connected heart and soul, and he would not shrink from any advice which he thought was necessary for its support.—(Hear, hear.)— The Noble Duke had told them that they ought to look to the composition of a Legislative Assembly, and not to the qualification of the voters. But what they did was to look to that composition so as to make it the real repre sentation of the people in Parliament; and how were they to do that, kit by taking care that the electors should be such voters as would insure a real representation ? The Noble Duke had also complained that the elec tive franchise was to be extended to the copyholders and leaseholders in counties ; and he had stated that this would increase the number of voters by 5,000 in Hampshire alone. How this could be he (Lord Grey) did not very well know, for at present, including the forty-shilling freeholders, the numbers were not ab ove eight or 9,00 0 , and he, therefore,did think th a t be i sh e ow would beto, the change i proposedch the Nobleco d make puke any ad thing spok e l e the Nvi addi tion rdet spe c n t :, ,iec however, tion tot such insertions if or t t e t ) m , s c s i o o u n li s s tler be necessary. The Noble Duke had a so complained that, under the new system, Government would be without its due influence. Now be (Lord Grey) thought that it would still have all the influence that it ought t) possess. It would stand on the affections of the people. He had no fear but it would be able to carry all good measeres into effect. With resp ec t t o the Church of E n gland and tithes, his answer was this— that he believed the people of England were attached, and justly attached, to the support of the National Church Establishment ; and with a real House of Commons he thought that there was no fear (whatever attempts might be made to correct the abuses of that Church) that there would be any desire to invade any of their just rights. His Noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe) had said that this was Writ a resting-place, but that it would lead to ulterior consequences, and in the end would prove fatal to the em pire. He (Lord Grey) believed that the very reverse of this would be the case, for be believed that it - would be ac cepted as a very satisfactory measure. But supposing that it should produce these consequences, how would they be amended by the proposal of his Noble Friend ? H e h a l already stated that Reform was irresistible, and that no Government could exist without doing something to sa tisfy the people ; if then he would do less than this mea sure, was it net evident that the people, who were to be dissatisfied with the present, would be still more dissatisfied with his Noble Friend's plan. Ile wished that his Noble Friend had stated what his plan was ; but, at all events, it would serve equally to eive a fulcrum to that lever by which, according to his N,ble Friend, all the instit u ti ons of the country were to he be overturned. When lie (Lord Grew) had been called on, by his public duty, to look at this measure, the question was, in what way it should be handled. Should it be a short measure, by which they would " Keep the word of promise to the ear, But break it to the hope ;" or should it be a measure such as would satisfy the country for a considerable period? lie had been reproached with having gone far beyond his original intentione. Now he had no hesitation in saying, that the first disposition of his mind had been to have limited the measure in a much narrower compass ; but when he came to look at it closer, and to discuss it with his colleagues, he had come to the opinion that nothing short of what he had proposed would satisfy the country, and give tranquillity to the Government. On this principle it was conferred—on this principle it had been supported, and he was happy to say that it had been received with general satisfaction throughout the country. It would not now do to say that the meetings that had taken place had all been composed of one class of indivi duals, for if the principal c unty meetings were looked at, it would be found that persons of the highest respecta bility had attended, and expressed their concurrence.— At the time of the Catholic question, an Honourable Gentleman had made an analysis of the expressed sense of the largest counties and towns in the kingdom, from which it appeared that of the counties there were 19 for the Catholic claims, and 17 against them; and of the towns, there were 26 for, and 19 against them ; from which that Hon. Gentleman had deduced that the expressed opinion of the country was in favour of the measure. But if that was correct in that instance, how much more so was it in the present, when, taking the same counties and the same towns, the result was that there were for the measure °7 counties, and only nine against it—with 37 towns for it, and only eight against it. In fact, he believed that he might venture to say that a more general, a more strong, and a more unequivocal expression of popular feeling had taken place on this subject than on any other that was on record. What had been the history of Catholic Emancipation? Had it not been retarded until the benefits which would otherwise have flowed from it had been con siderably diminished? If Catholic Emancipation had been granted in 1806, or even at a much later period, it would have been received as a boon, and the most advantageous effects would have been the result. But it had luen de layed until Ireland became convulsed, and until the feeling of irritation in that county arose to such a height that even the most violent opposers of emancipation felt it to be their duty to propose and to support it. The same would be the case in the event of the rejection of the pro position for Reform. Granted at the present moment the people would consider it an act of grace ; refused, and who could predict the consequences of the rejection ? It was a rejection which might destroy the present Administration; but how would it operate on their successors ? The people, disappointed of their just expectations, would be inflamed with resentment; and would eventually demand, with a voice of thunder, that which it would be found impossible longer to deny; but the granting of vehich would not only be unattended with the advantages that would now accom pany its concession, but in the strong excitement that would then exist might be productive of evils which no man could foresee—evils that might throw the whole country into irremediable disorder.—(Hear, hear.) The Doke of WELLINGTON explained. Lord WHARNCLIFFE made a short reply, in which he avowed that the motion which he had made proceeded from himself alone ; and contended that although Reform, and a considerable degree of Reform, was necessary, his Majesty's Government might, if they had thought proper, have brought forward a plan which would have been suf ficiently satisfactory to the whole country, instead of ori ginating the rash and dangerous measure which they now advocated, and from the perilous consequences of which, should it he adopted, they would find it difficult to disco ver the means of extrication. The Address was then agreed to, and at Half-past Two o'clock this morning their Lordships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS,lincir 28. The SPEAKER, took the Chair precisely at Three o'clock. FORFAR ELECTION. Mr. GOULBURN brought up the report of the Com mittee on this election, which decided that the Lord Ad vocate of Scotland had not been duly elected, but that the Hon. Mr. Ogilvie was duly elected, and that the petition or the opposition to it was neither frivolous nor vexatious. The Hon. Mr. OGILVIE was then introduced, and took the oaths and his seat. ;~ :on the got ugh crly aich Nae. arly ' , tor ith% t rule, :ended , No Do the shed eel for let us to re- LIVERPOOL ELECTION. Mr. BENETT reported from the Liverpool Election Com mittee that Mr. Ewart was not duly elected to serve as a bur gess for the borough of Liverpool, and that the said election was void on account of the excessive treating and bribery that had been practised. The Honourable Member then said, that having presented the report of the Com mittee, he should feel it his duty, in consequence of what had come to his knowledge relating to the proceed ings at the late Liverpool election, to move that the mi nutes of evidence taken before the Committee be printed and laid before the Mouse. The motion for printing having been put and agreed to, Mr. BENETT gave notice that to-morrow he should move for the suspension of the writ for a new Member for Liverpool.--(Hear.) A great number of petitions in favour of Reform, and for the abolition of slavery, were presented from different places. Captain DUNCOMBE presented a petition against the plan of Refi►rm, from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Co►xmon Council of the borough of East Retford.—The Hon. Member neither could, nor would support this Ministerial measure. . Sir WM. RAE presented a petition against Reform from a place i❑ Scotland. Colonel Davies, Sir G. Warrender, Mr. H. Drummond, Mr. Stuart Wortley, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. C. Howard, and several other Members, made some observations on the pe tion. Sir C. FORBES had intended to have made some re marks on the Scotch plan of Reform, if the Lord Advo cate had not lost his seat in that House. Ile did not, however, regret the absence of that Learned Lord, as the Committee had acted in strict justice in removing He had no doubt. however, before the second reading, the Learned Lord would find the convenience of some snug borough, and he again in the House.—(Hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, if the mea sure of Reform had taken place the Lord Advocate would never have lost his seat. He hoped, however, soon to see him again in that House. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table. Lord AIORPETH presented a petition from Yorkshire. He assured the House that a feeling more unanimous, an approbation more complete, had never, in the county of York, shown itself, than bad been exhibited with reference to the measure of Parliamentary Reform introduced by the Ministers of the Crown. They termed it a grand, a wise, a just, and an honest measure. They gave it a title which united the soundness of loyalty with a warm patriotic zeal for liberty, for they termed it the Great Char ter of William IV. In proof of the popularity of themel sure he need only refer to the numerous petitions which from that county he had already had the honour of presenting in that House, comprising signatures, at the lowest calculation, of between 50,000 and 60,000 persons. And here he would have sufficiently discharged his duty, and should not have added another word in prese ntinz the petition, had it not been for an opinion which fell from the Hon. and Learned Member for Weymouth in his speech on the Reform Bill that day week. The Hon . and Learned Gentleman, with great courtesy and infinite ten derness and consideration towards the members for York shire, w as pl ease d to observe that if the tripartite division of th e country wire a d o pt e d ( as proposed by the Bill), the Members for York would no longer appear invested with the same weight and importance as at present. Now, professin g hi mse lf, as he did most sincerely, deeply grate ful to th e genera l b o d y o f hi s cons tituents, he was conten t to submit to any personal diminution of weigh t which the chang e might occasion—a course that be would be ishamad not to adopt amidst the examplo of noble saw tiecs in relation to the question of. Reform by which he was surrounded—examples presented by individuals'con nected with him by near ties of blood, as well as by other distinguished persons. The cases of Knaresborough and • would not easily be forgotten; and it was p'easing to see virtuous examples offered, not. only by our loftiest Dukes, but also by our poorest freemen. If gentlemen wished to know whether the county of York resented the projected invasion of its territorial integrity, he could only •ay that a feeling of approbation more general and coin - plete had never attended any measure than that with winch the present plan was received in Yorkshire, where it had been termed the Great Charter of the Fourth William. In proof of this feeling he referred to petitions, which he had already presented, from various places in the county, with from 50,000 to 60,000 signatures attached to them, and also to the present petition. Mr. W. DUNCOMBE would not follow the example of the Noble Lord, who had turned his luck on the Speak( r and addressed himself directly to another part of the House, which probably bad peculiar attractions for the Noble Lord.—(Laughter.) [This was an allusion to the position of Lord Morpeth while speaking, the Noble Uril Navin. turned his face towards the s t rangers ' ga ll er y (luring the greater part of Ins speech.] He had been assured, upon authority in which be placed the utmost confidence, that the meeting to which the Noble Lord referred, was a decided failure ; in fact, that a thinner county meeting was never known to have occurred in the Castle-yard of York within the memory of man.—(Hear.)—He did not agree with the Noble Lord as to the supposed complete una nimity of the county in relation to the subject of Reform. He admitted that there was a considerable feeling in favour of the Bill, but also maintained that a strong opposition to it prevailed in various parts of the county. It was not surprising, that a plan which gave two members to each of the three ridings, and representatives to several of the large towns, should :be acceptable to many, but lie denied that the measure had afforded undivided satisfaction. One objection to the Bill was, that it made the representa , thou that of one class only. The Hon. Member here quoted from a publication, in the political views of which he did not concur, to show, that at the commence ment the meeting did not exceed from 1,000 to 1,500 persons, and that at one o'clock not above 5,000 were in the Castle-yard, including idlers, although it was the As size week. Be it recollected, that the Castle-yard at York was capable of containing 4.0,000 persons, and he (Mr. Duncombe) had seen it crammed to suffocation on an im portant constitutional occasion. Did it seem as if the great body of the county took a very strong interest in Reform when the meeting in its support was so thinly attended ?—( Hear. ) Sir J. JOHNSON said, the inhabitants of the county had expressed their opinions in petitions on the subject of Reform, and there was no occasion for persons living at a distance to attend at the city of York to petition again. It should also be recollected that the country was thinly peopled about York. Mr. S. WORTLEY confirmed the Hon. Member (Mr. Duncombe's) account of the thinness of the meeting, al though held in the Assize week. He did not undertake to say what was the opinion of the county of York on Reform ; ha only protested against this petition being taken as a decisive declaration of that opinion. Mr. SYKES—Did the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Duncombe) pretend to say that this measure was not popular ? Mr. DUNCOMBE—I never said so. Mr. SYKES proceeded to observe, that the petition ought, in his opinion, to be taken as expressing the opi nion of the county of York. At the meeting at which this petition was agreed to, the utmost unanimity prevailed. The letters which he had received day after day informed him, that there was a strong feeling in the large towns, in the small towns, and even the villages, throughout York shire, in favour of Reform, in favour of Reform according to the plan introduced by his Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear.) He had no doubt that it was impossible truly to contradict the existence of that feeling. The petitions which had been presented from different parts of the county established the fact. Amongst the people, the question appeared to be, whether they were to have a Constitution of King, Lords, and Commons; or whether they were to have a Constitu tion of King, Lords, and horoughmongers ?—( Hear.) Mr. FANE expressed his decided hostility to the pro posed measure, because it would have the effect of disfran chising the labouring classes, and would reduce them to the situation of mere hewers of wood and drawers of water. He could never bring himself to believe that those who sat there as popular representatives, and whose duty it was to guard the rights of the people of England, would ever condescend to delegate the power of declaring how the representation of particular places was to be al tered, to three members of his Majesty's Privy Council. Mr. BETHELL said he believed that it was admitted on all hands, that this petition was not agreed to at a large meeting of the county; but from the information which he had received from various individuals connected witk the county, he had every reason to think that the great body of the population was in favour of the Bill. that the petition be printed, L T o h r e d petitiontilook;Ea' occasion to nT h tion l a i i . d ne uoovi.nni moving st t h al a i thanks to his Hon. Friend (Mr. Duncombe) for having reminded bim that he had not addressed his observations in a manner sufficiently direct to the Speaker. That circumstance, however, was to be attributed not to intention, but to mere inadvertence. He should only state farther, as he had stated before, that this petition was agreed to at a meeting of which all the world was apprised, and at which the whole country might have been present, and yet not a single dissentinent voice was heard. Mr. SADLER said the meeting at York was by no means numerously attended. The inhabitants of the city of York and its vicinity amounted to 30,000 or 40,000, and if people were so enthusiastically attached to this measure as had been represented, he should be glad to know why they had not appeared at the meeting in greater num bers? I n d ee d, the editor of one of the country rapers which was favourable to Reform, observed that he never recollected a meeting that excited less interest. Lord HOTHANI complain, d that in consequence of the inaccurateness of the returns of 1821, on which the pro visions of the Bill were founded, extreme injustice was necessarily done to many places, and among others to the borough which it was has honour to represent . Lord ALTHOR P said, that in consequence of such inaccuracy as had been alluded to of the popul ition returns which bad been adopted by his M a j es t y ' s Mi n i sters, t h ey would very willingly attend to any proposed alterations, but he submitted that any discussion relative to such a point was :altogether premature until the Bill bad gone into the Com mi ttee. — (Hear, hear.) Lord MORPETH presented 76 petitions from various places in Yorkshire, praying for the abolition of slavery. Lord MORPETH also presented, for his Hon. Friend I the Member for Beverley, 81 petitions to the same effect. COAL DUES. Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS brought in a Bill for regulating the delivery Of coals in the city of Londo❑ and its suburbs. In doing so he felt it to be his duty to make a few observations. The pre sent pill was local in its effects, affecting only the delivery of coals in the city of London and its neighbour. hood. When the House recollected how large a proportion of the inhabitants of England were supplied with coals delivered within these limits, and the immense quan tity of shipping that was concerned in the trade, they must admit the immense importance of the subject. He had compared the supply of Dublin with the supply of London, and he had never been able to understand why London should not be sup plied with coal at as cheap a rate as Dublin. In Dublin coal was delivered from Whitebaven at from 2 le. to 235. per chaldron ; in London it had seldom been less to the consumer than 4.15. Great inconvenience was experienced in some of the more southern and inland parts in the way of obtaining coal, and it was the duty of the House to see that those inconveniences were not increased by legislative enactments. When the coal subject was undergoing a full inquiry in that House, there was not one individual who attended the Committee but came to the conclusion that the 42d of George the Third, which regulated the delivery of coals from the very moment at which they came from the pit into the possession of the consumer, tended greatly to ineicase the price of coal. From the moment the vessel arrived in the port of London, she was subjected to a strict regula tion, awl the way in which the cargo was to be delivered was specifically pointed out. A necessity had in conse quence arisen for putting on board an individual to mea sure the coals ; and by him the duty, partly city dues, and partly a Government tax, was ascertained. The meter thus stood between the buyer and seller; and to this part of the system his objection chiefly applied, beeause he could not see why others should be called on to do that duty which the buyers could perform for themselves. In the first instance, it was intended to leave the meters to look to the measuring of the coals, and to ascertain the duties ; but when he found that Government intended to do the d u ty away, he thought it would be right to get r id of the c it y ship -met ers a lt oget h er . H e wished to leave the own ers to deal with the merchants as they t h oug h t proper, an d h e devised other and sure means for collect i ng the city dues. In making this arrangement he had received from individuals connected with the city of London, the utmost possible information and assistance. They had awed With him cordially, fairly, and candidly. They undoubtedly claimed certain rights and dues; but means would he afforded less objectionable than those now in holing, for the collection of those rights and dues. It was p,op,sed that the dues in future should be collected by the ton. The orphans' fund, which was now mort• gaged for the openings to London idge, and which was 10d. per clddron, would be commuted for Sd. per ton ; there was also a city due of 4.d. per chahlron, and other small dues payable to the Lord Mayor, all of which would he commuted for 4,d. per ton; making Is. per ton to be paid to the orphans' fund. There was, besides this, what was called the market penny, the appropriation or which he should presently notice. With respect to the collection of these dues, it was thorn ht better that they should he levied in the north, where there were already establish ments suited to that purpose, than in the port of London. Liberty would b, , given for pernris embarked in this trade to compound for the payment of the duce, according to the quantity which a vessel would really carry, for two or three yearn ; and he believed that in avery short time scarcely a vessel would come into port that would not be compounded fur. The next point was to allow indivi duals, the owners of colliers, to employ at their own will, such persons as they pleased to unload their ships. Under the Act of ISO 7 the whippers were allowed a fixed salary, which, looking at the al eration in the price of provisions, Was greater than, considering the market price of labour, they could have procured now. But those people, in con sequence of the prevailing system, lost about 169. a week of their wages, which was charged to them by those who sent them to the different vessels, for lodgings, which were over-rated, and for beer which they never drank. It was therefore proposed that the owners of colliers should em ploy such persons as they pleased and bargain with them as they would do with any other body of labourers. He now came to another and a very material point. Nothing, he conceived, could be more absurd than buying coals by measure. The consequence of this practice was that none but large coals were sent to London, where they were broken, and being sold by measure, gave to the dealer a greater profit. Large quantities of small coals were thus left unconsumed in the neighbourhood of the pits. Now in London, they wanted every sort of coals,—large, mid tiling, and small ; but a very great quantity of small coal was destroyed at the mouth of tl.e pit, in consequence of this practice of sending none but large coal to the metropolis and other plums. The reason of this was, that large coal when broken, filled a greater space than when it was in a solid and compact Mess. The dealers, therefore, pur chased the large coal, which was broken on ship-board, broken at the wharfs, and ultimately broken by the retail dealer, to the manifest injury of the consumer. It was proposed that the existing system should be done away; and there could be no doubt that if coals were sold by weight, instead of by measure, large quantities of coals which were now wasted at the pit would be beneficially brought to market. At present, the mode of selling by measure was also attended with this inconvenience—that if you thought the measure unfair, you could only get the man to measure one sack. If that were not properly filled, you sent to the wharf, and got a met, r to measure the whole. In that case, though some sacks might be deficient, yet if it were found, taking the average of the whole, that the waggon contained as ninch coals as it ought, then the troulde and expense fell upon the eon aumsr. It was proposed, therefore, that sacks that would contain 2cwt. should be provided, and that at every coal wharf there should he a weighing- machine, where the waggon and all could be weighed without expense, and thus the exact contents could he ascertain ed. It would be necessary to make compensation for the meters. Now, there was a market-penny payable to the city, which produced 11,0001. a year; and out of that fund it was that compensation should be made to the meters. By the abolition of all the regulations which now fettered the trade, it would then become as free as any other. The coal-market would then become free as the corn-market of Mark-lane, and people would be allowed to buy and sell without any of those restrictions and limitations which hitherto prevented the buyer and seller of coals from coming to market and making the best bargain they could for themselves. In the removal of the present regulations, the services of the ship-meters would no longer be required, but as he admitted the principle of making some provision for those who had long acted in the public service, and who, on being removed, might have no other means of providing for themselves, he thought these men were en titled to have some provision made for them. This the corporation had undertaken to make, the Bill continuing to them the city dues which they had heretofore received. He should observe that those dues amounted to 4d. per chaldron, but in consequence of their undertaking to pro vide for the ship -meters, the dues would he continued at 4d. per ton. In the course of the communications had with the city on this subject, he must say that it had be , hived with the greatest liberality. In conclusion, the Right Hon. Gentleman observed that the effect of these regulations would he found of great benefit, not only to the persons immediately engaged in this trade, who would thus be freed from many inconvenient and unnecessary regulations, but to the public generally, who would have the advantage of a more extended competition in that necessary article, which would thus be reduced to its lowest price. He then moved that the Bill be read a first time. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN expressed his approbation of the measure, which be trusted would have the effect of reducing the price, and throwing open the trade. A prac tice now existed which he could not account for, of charging I4s. per chaldron for the screened coal sent up to London, while the same coal, if sent to Ireland, was sold for ss. per chaldron. This came out a few days ago in an action brought against a party who had shipped a quan tity of coal alleged to be for Ireland, but whin found its way to the London market. The action was for the dif ference between the price . ) paid in London above what would have been received in Dublin, and it was recovered. Now, he would suggest that as the trade was to undergo a regulation, some inquiry should be made into this subject, for it was unfair that London should pay so much more for this kind of coal than Dublin. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON thought that his Right lion. Friend (Mr. F. Lewis) was entitled to great praise for the time and labour he had bestowed on this subject. Itsys certainly of very great importance, that the city of London should have the means of obtaining coals as cheap as possible; and as far as this Bill could have that effect, he would give it his cordial support ; but he thought there were parts of the Dill not necessary for that purpose. Now, with respect to the Orphans' Fund, it was already mort gaged for a million or a million and a half, and it could not be touched. As to the ship-meters, he had great doubts of the policy of doing away with them, for he understood from those well acquainted with the trade, that it was necessary to have some party between the buyer and seller, and this could be managed without any additional cost to the consumer. As to the dif ference between the price charged for the small or screened coal in London and Dublin, he thought it was easily accounted for by the difference in the length of the voyage. The object of this Bill was to establish a free trade in coal, and he admitted that many of the restrictions to which it was now subjected were unnecessary ; but in doing away with restrictions, he thought they should not overlook those limitations made at the pit's mouth by (as we understood the Hon. Member) a combination among the coal-owners themselves, and by which the quantity delivered itt each month was regulated. By these means the coals were rendered 6s. or is. a chaldron dearer than they otherwise would be to the people of London and other places. It sometimes happened that a vessel was obliged to wait two or three weeks for a cargo, because, as was alleged, the quantity to be delivered at particular pits for the month had been given out. Now this was a sort of monopoly which ought to be put an end to, and the whole trade thrown fully open. Mr. BELL assure! the Hon. Members who had spoken on this subject, that no such difference existed in the prices of small coal as they imagined, They were sold for 4s. 6d. and Os. per chaldron according to quality. As to limitation of the quantity delivered among the coal owners, he must say that there was never any want of a full supply in the London market. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON, in proof of the effect of the limitation, said, that when it ceased for a time to be in operation, coals fell in London, but when it was re newed they rose again. The difference in the price of small coal sent to London and that sent to Dublin was proved on a recent trial, already alluded to. Mr. BELL could only say that the ship-owners did not pay that high price. Mr. Alderman WOOD felt much obliged to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the pains he had taken on this sub ject, and also for the very handsome manner in which he had alluded to the liberality of the city of London. The city had certainly acted with great liberality in providing for the retired ship-meters, who would be provided for during their lives. As to the statement that the public would not get the full benefit of the remission of duty on coals, he thought it absurd. Mr.WARBURTON said that the evidence taken before the Committee which sat on this subject, showed that there was jobbing in the south as well as in the north in this trade, and he owned he should like to hear from some of the gentlemen of the north connected with this trade an explanation of what had been stated, that ships were de layed because the pit had delivered the regulated monthly supply, and could deliver no more till the next month.— This certainly required some explanation. Sir M. W. RIDLEY said that the remark of the Hon. Member for Bridport deserved an answer, as it was urged : 3 a maw' er entitled it to notice. IThe whole us.ion was going on in an amicable manner, until the ob .crvstion of the Hon. Member for London (Mr. Alderman Thompson), which he must say was unjust, illiberal, and infounded. The lion. Member (Mr. Warburton) was nistAen in supposing that a vessel could not get a cargo it any time. It she could not get it at one pit, she could it another. If he referred to the evidence before the Com :nittee, he would find that there was no limitation of men, a•ul that the London market was always rather over-sup •died than otherwise, anal, that there was no want of coals even its times of hard frost. The proposed regulation of .eiling coals by weight instead of measure, would do away with much of the inconvenience now flt by consumers; as to the price, it would be found that it would not lie raised at the pit's mouth in consequence of the refine :ion of the tax. IL! had seen a bill delivered in London for coals, amounting to 160/., and on analyzing it, he f mod that only 421. of it went into the pocket of the coal owner, the remaining 1181. was absorbed by the carrier, the coal-merchant, and the dues payable in London. Mr. R. GORDON said, that at the risk of drawing down the indignation of his Hon. Friend the Hon. Mem- Iser for• Newcastle (Sir M. W. Ridley), lie must say, that there was a regulation among the colliers fcr delivering only a certain quantity in each month, and that he thought it was a rcgulr.tion by the removal of which the public ,voir!d be a great gainer. Lord HOWICK said that there were large fields of the finest coals within a quarter of a mile of the sea, which the owners could not work, because they could make ❑o profit by Bending the coals to Llndon, After a few words from Mr. WAituunToN and Mr. F. LEWIS, which were not audible in the gallery, the Bill was read a first time. On the question that it he read a second time on the 18th of Apri', Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said that the Von. Ba roaet (Sir M. W. Ridley) bad taken a most unwarrantable Lberty in reprimanding him for the course he had felt it proper to pursue on this subject. The motion was then agreed to. Lord HOWICK presented certain papers relaf ng to tie manumission of slaves. Mr. CALCRAFT wished to know when the second reading of the Noble Lord's Emigration Bill would come on: Lord HOWICK said be could not bring on the second reading till after the bolydays. CIVIL LIST. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for bringing up the report of the _ . Committee on the Civil List. The report was brought up. The first resolution, granting a sum 0f510,0001. to his Majesty, for the pur poses of the Civil List, was read. On the question that the resolution he read a second time, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to say a few words on this resolution to peeve .t any misun derstanding as to what fell from him in the Committee. He believed he distinctly stated, that iu adopting this re solution he did not consider himself pledged to any reduc. tion of salaries. The proper time for the discussion of this subject would he when the Bill came before the House, and when the offices mentioned in it were about to be classed. He would reserve himself for that discussion, but without being pledged to any particular c , nrsc. Colonel DAVIES thought the House should he liberal, and even prodigal, in voting every thing which might tend to the personal comfort of the Sovereign ; but with every disposition to concur in any grant having such an object, no consideration should induce him to vote for the conti nuance of those salaries to officers of the household which the Committee had declared too large. He could not con curoe responsibilityi u the suggestion o f n a s t te h r e t4, l 3 l e , n ec s a i (umseLis that would be be on o give them a share in the patronage. Instead of assigning a Pension List of 75,000/. to his Majesty, which was already crammed full, an.' many of the lives on which must, in the course of nature, be as long as that of the Sovereign, he would prefer giving n. fixed but unencutn bared list of a much smaller sum. Sir G. WAIL-MENDER would support the grant, which, on the whole, however, he thought rather too small, considering the manner in which tl e present Sove reign lived, compared with the privacy of the lase Sove reign. He feared that a small income would only tend to beget debt on account of the Civil List. It was absurd to say that this sum came out of the pockets of the people.— The people did not think so ; and even if it did, the people of this country would never grudge a liberal and splendid income to a Sovereign who had so many claims on their affectionate attachment as the present Monarch of England. It was a fact, that the sum fixed for the income of his Majesty was lower than that of any other sovereign of Europe. But this money did not come out of the pockets of the people, for it should he recollected, that the hereditary revenues of the Crown, • which were immense, had been given up to the public; and if they considered that a large portion of this income went to pay the salaries of high officers of the household, it would be found that the sum which properly night be considered as the income of his Majesty, fell far short of what he would have derived from his own hereditary re venues. He did not concur in the suggestion as to the Pension List—but he thought that a considerable addition should be made to the Privy Purse. Sir H. HARDING E felt it his duty to support Govern went on this measure. The Earl of DARLINGTON would not object to that part of the Civil List which related to the personal cone fort of the sovereign, but he did think that, considering who the distinguished individuals were who held high offices in the household—that they were offices of pageant —necessary he would admit in a monarchical government, which be hoped would always be the government of this country—(Hear, hear)—they were offices which would bear reduction in point of salary; and if any motion were made to reduce them '2O per cent., he would support it. Mr. BRISCOE also would support reductions which did not trench on the personal comforts of the Sovereign. An HON. MEMBER, whose name we did not learn, said that lie had opposed the last Governor-nt on this question ; and as the present Government had refer red the matter to a Select Committee to see what reductions could be made, he would support the recommendation of that Committee. Mr. CURTEIS hoped, for a variety of reasons, that no division would take place on the subject; but if the ques tion should be pressed ts a division, he should feel obliged, from the duty he owed his constituents, to vote with the Member for Middlesex. Mr. WILKS expressed his intention of supporting the Government in this question. Mr. HUME was of opinion that considerable reductions ought to be made in the expenses of the Household, though at the same time be thought that the numerous family of his Majesty ought to be taken into con►ideration. He could not agree, nor would he ever agree, to the vote be fore the House, but he would not take the sense of the House on the present occasion, but when the Bill was brought in, and came to the Committee, the House would then be able to see what particular sums were allotted to the different departments in the King's house hold. At that stage of the proceedings he would re new his opposition, if necessary, but be confidently hoped that the Noble Lord (Althorp) would be in induced to abide by the recommendation of the Com mittee. The item he objected to most was that of the pen sions, and which in the eyes of the people detracted more from the honour and dignity of the Crown than any thing else. His objection was, however, lessened, upon see ing that the amount voted under that head was half of the sum usually voted. He considered it unfair towards the King to make the pensions an item in the Civil List, be cause his Majesty could not have the free control of the money so voted. He should have no objection to provide a fund out of which his Majesty might be enabled to re ward those only who had rendered him personal services ; but the fact was, that the pension fund was taken out of the hands of the Sovereign, and controlled by his Mini sters. The sum proposed to be voted for pensions, under the Civil List, was 75,000/, which was only half of the whole amount. There still remained pensions to the amount of 82,0001. to lie provided for in some way or other, and when that question came before the House, he would take care to watch narrowly the mode in which it should be proposed to dispose of them. Ibis own opinion was, that there were many pensions which ought to he altogether discharged from the List; that Ministers should he called upon to make a selection of those who received pensions for services performed by themselves or their re lations ; and that all unworthy persons should be dis charged from the list. No individual, he thought, ought to be allowed to receive a pension, if his income from other sources exceeded the amount of his pension. Whe ther he should make that proposition, or move for an co tire revision of the Pension List,ibe was not yet determined. He was willing to allow the report to be brought up, though he did not wave his opposition to the vote. _ _ on. Mr. CALCRAFT was very glad that the Hon. Al ' the ber for Middlesex did not intend to take the sense of n House on the question ; and lie must declare,litehactl bit List opinion, the course pursued with respect to t Hear, was not creditable to either side of the H°use• and -et there was no tude and affection to his Majesty, y 'n the Civil List the revolution of the vote instance since 1 It was nosy nine months long delayei being nearly 80 ion to the Throne, and up to the since hie Majesty's access. bad berm come to with respect moment no decision ern present mo hear.) Hon. Members were .constantly talkiNg of ( grati-