The Sun. — London, England, 1834-07-26 00:00:00

relative to the Earl of Warwick interfering at the election of Members for that borough. This notice had been postponed from time to time, and he now found that there was a double notice upon the orders of the House, for the purpose of having the matter taken into consideration next session; and he ( Sir H. Hardinge) wished to know what the Hon. Member's intentions were. After a short discussion, Mr. PETER consented to with draw his motion altogether. Colonel PERCE VAL said he had a question to put to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland, relative to the trial of two policemen who were charged with murder in an affray which took place at Frome, in the county of Limerick, and who had been acquitted.—( Hear, hear.) He wished to know from the Right lion. Gentleman whether he had any objection to the production of the Judge's notes before whom the trial had taken place. He would not pledge himself to the accu racy of the statements contained in the public papers relative to that trial, .but - they were of a very extraordinary nature.— ( Cries of Read, read.") He wished to know whether or not Government was prepared to call upon the Judge for his notes of the trial ? Mr. LITTLETON said he had read the reports alluded to, and had no doubt but they were accurately reported, but at the same time he knew nothing of their accuracy, and he had sufficient experience of the extreme inaccuracies of the Irish papers to prevent him from placing confidence in them. SUPPRESSION OF DISTURBANCES (IRELAND) BILL Lord ALTHORP moved that the report of the Committee upon this Bill should be brought up. Mr. HE RRI ES wished to know whether the Budget was to come on that evening, and whether the Supplies would be brought forward on Monday? Lord ALTHORP said that after the present subject was disposed of, he would bring forward the Budget. The Noble Lord, as we understood, said that he would rather not bring forward the Supplies on Monday, but would fix an early day. Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know whether the Indemnity Clause was to be, preserved? Lord ALTHORP said he did not think, after the best consideration, that it would be proper to abandon this clause. Mr. O'CONN"ELL'said, that when the Bill came on for the third reading, he would move, as we understood, the in sertion of two new clauses. The.. ATTORNEY-GENERAL gave notice that he wvld,move the insertion of a clause to the effect of direct ing the Lord Lieutenants of counties, and the Chief Magis trates of cities and counties, to post up in the most public places of the district copies of proclamations of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, revoking any former proclamation. INCREASE OF PUBLIC OIFICES. Mr. GOULBO URN said that early in the Session he had moved for returns of the increase or diminution of the number of public offices that had taken place within the year. The return that had been laid upon the table was of a very unsatis factory nature, and gave by no means the required informa tion., He would confine himself to the year 1833, dur ing ,which time no less than ten Commissioners had been issued. There was a statement made in that return, that thenumber of, offices reduced amounted to 221, and the num ber increased was 128, leaving a balance of 93 in favour of reduction. What would the House say when he (Mr. G.) informed them that the actual number of offices increased amounted to three hundred and twenty-two, thus giving a large.addition of patronage to the Government.—( Hear.) It was stated in the same return that the amount saved by re ductions during the year was 30.0001. ; but the fact was, that there was an increase of 85,0001. in th expenses of the State, and the patronage of the Government.—( Hear, hear.) He would take the liberty of reading an abstract of the offices created during the year, and the nature of them. On looking over-them, he found them no less than 425.—( Hear.) Of these there were the following rates of salary : Offices of 6,000/. a-year, and upwards, one.—( He did not include the appointment of Mr. Macauley.) Offices of 3,0001. and under 2,000 1,000 800 600 81)0 4 400 6OO 8 ' 200 4OO 141 200 -- 231 Total These offices cost the country 125,000/.--( Hear, hear.) This was a subject to which the House ought to give its most serious attention, especially as they were offices over which the House had no control, and patronage was important to every Govern ment. Would the manner in which some of the appointments were made, prove that they were made for the benefit of the country ? Without going into all, he would take one case. Last Session one million was voted to the assist ance of the clergy of Ireland. The benefices there were about 1,200, and the number of parishes 2,500 ; therefore the applications must have been numerous. Now, had ten or twelve extra clerks been appointed for that distribution, it would have been enough, but 120 persons had been en gaged, and a new office, called the Tithe-owners Relief Office, had been created. Of the number of persons - 74 were clerks. Comparing this with the Secretary of State's Office in Ire land, and the War Office in England, it appeared that the new office employed twice the number of persons.—( Hear. ) There were in Ireland 32 barristers, and one would suppose that one assistant would have been enough for each : but what < was the fact ? Why, no less than 40 assistant-barristers had been appointed under this Tithe Million Act. To distribute a sum of twenty millions over the whole of our colonial posses sions, and to all the slave proprietors only sixty appointments had been made, while to distribute one million in Ireland to the tithe-owners, no less than 40 assistant barristers, and 74 clerks, had been employed.—( Hear.) He thought that in this case the Right lion. Gentleman had been guilty of some indiscretion.—( Oh !) He was aware that the House had been • very anxious about the Budget, but he thought the subject he had brought forward was sufficiently important, and he had no other opportunity of bringing it before the House. If they were to watch the public patronage of tEe Government, they should be doubly vigilant in watching over the disposal of funds over which the House had comparatively but little control. Mr. LITTLETON said that the Barristers and Clerks under the Tithe Owners Relief Bill fund, had used extra taordinary labour. Not less than 2,000 schedules were received and answered. It was a matter of the greatest importance that the business should be got through, with as much expedition as possible, and they, therefore, thought it better to employ a great number of men, as the same amount of money would be expended, whether the wort was done in ten years or in ten days.—.(Hear, hear. ) this was the reason why 40 barristers were employed. " With respect to the clerks, Sir W. Gosset had calculated that it would take one man not less than 58 years to go through the whole work, but it was necessary that the whole, should be done by the end of September, and they therefore employed that number of men that was necessary to complete the work. He hoped this explanation would be satisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. H. GRATTAN complained of the Right Hon. Mem ber (Mr. Ceulburn) objecting to this commission, after he had sanctioned the measure under which it was issued. The Right Hon. Gentleman had been in Ireland, and why did he not instruct the clerks to do their business better ? ( Hear.) He must only infer that the Right Hon. Gentle man was a bad instructor, and he hoped he would not instruct him (Mr. G.), and he hoped he would not instruct that House. Mr. F. BARING said that the Right Hon. Gentleman spoke as if he wished to have it understood that these appointments - were resorted to as a convenient mode of patronage. He would not animadvert upon the Right Hon. Gentleman's political charity, but would merely ask him whether these Commissions • were new ? Whether there was not one appointed of which the Right Hon. Gentleman's brother was the head, and of which he (Mr. Baring) was ready to admit that it had done its duty satisfactorily? The balance of offices against the public, on which the Right Hon. Gentleman had laid so much stress, was not correctly calculated. There was not sufficient infor mation.before the House, to show the extent of the reductions which were made. By a bill which was brought in last year, thirty offices have been abolished, and those were not returned ; and amongst others were the clerks of the Pipe and of the Pelts. The Right Hon. Gentleman had observed upon the appointment of Commissions, but he challenged him to point out one which that House would be inclined to look upon as use less, or of which it could be fairly said that the subjects which they had to investigate were not deserving of inquiry. Whose fault was it that these investigations were rendered so neces sary ?—( Cheers.) If, during the fifty years in which the party of the Right lion. Gentleman was in office, they had gradually but constantly applied themselves to a temperate application of measures of useful reform, there would not now be occa sion for the number of Commissions which it was found neces sary to appoint.—( Cheers.) He need hardly tell the House that in many instances where these Commissions had been issued, it was not so much the work of the Government as of the House pressing them upon the Government ; and if any blame attached, it fell as much on the House which had im ., pressed the necessity upon the Government. The Right Honourable Gentleman had run through a detail of offices, and described them as suitinr , all tastes and fancies, from • 6,0001. a year downward. The Right Honourable Gentleman , might have known, from long experience, that those who were desirous of making place for the purpose of patron . age, wished to render it as attractive as possible, and that, ,- for this purpose, they well understood the difference between those offices which were permanent and those which were only temporary. Lot the House call to mind h ow many o f t h e • offices created by these Commissions were only temporary, and that would be the best reply to the charge of patronage. '—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry to intrude upon the House with details, but as the Government had been distinctly ac cused of creating offices for the purpose of patronage, he would take leave to lay before the House a few facts, which would show what had been done by the present Govern ment. For this purpose he would contrast the reductions made in thrde years of the present Government, with those made in three years of the Government which preceded it. In the preceding Government, during the years 1828, 1829, and 1830, the number of offices abolished was 909, and the amount of salary 106,1771. In the years 1831, 1832, and 1833, the offices abolished were 1,358, and the amount of salary 259,2231. Of the reductions made by the present Government, many of the salaries were of high amount, which served to show that —to use a metaphor from the other side they were not hawking at the small g ame, whilst the latter were suffered to escape. To show that this red had taken pl ace i n the higher off i ces, h e had bi to t sia_(if., 161 of these situations amounted in salary to 4*416h ,l is statement, it therefore appeared that . thd:Yeductions matt,e, the present Government, in - an average that which preced e d i t i n t h e num b er ofhree years, ex - • • oFofflceS abolished , b 1449, and in the amo un t o f sa l ary b y 020464-4 Cheera, Frhe average annual value of offices ~~ 1. J~ -7‘ )e". reduced, was by the preceding Government 1171., and by the present 1901. The annual average of reduction by the former Government was 303 offices, with salaries amounting to 35,392/., and that of the present Government was 453 offices, with salaries to the amount of 86,408/. In addition to the re ductionof the last three years, there was reduction made in the colonies, .which raised, the gross sum to 473,416/. The Right Hon. Gentleman had confined himself to the year 1833, out of which many items were omitted. The Hon. Gentleman con cluded by saying, that he hoped the statement he had made was sufficient to show the increased economy of the present Government.—( Cheers.) Mr. HUME said it was a trite saying, that when rogues fall out, honest men come by their own ; so. when Whigs and To ries come in opposition, certain things leaked out which it was well the public should be acquainted with. He certainly ap preciated the difference between temporary and permanent em ployments, and wished to k now w h e th er th e e l e v e n appoint ments under the courtsmartial clauses of the Coercion Bill were to be abolished. Mr. RlCE —Certainly._ . . • Mr. HUME was, satisfied with this, and as most of the other offices were merely temporary, and appointed for neces sary purposes, he thought they were such as could not be_ objected to, provided there was no compensation afterwards. With regard to the case of Mr. Macaulay, to which allusion had been made, he thought it a most abominable abuse. He had made a call for returns of the accounts of the Suitors' Fund, and he hoped that in this and similar returns Govern ment would be above-board, for if there was anything he could impress upon them more than another, it was the necessity of being clear in their accounts, as it would always be found that the more perspicuity there — was, the less trouble would be given, for it was only where the House was kept in the dark that inquiry and recrimination ensued. Mr. PEEL felt satisfied that no one could question the justice or propriety of his Right Hon. Friend in bringing the question before the House, who had heard that seventy-four clerks and forty barristers were employed in the distribution of a fund of one million. Nobody who heard the circumstance could draw any other inference than that it was a matter in which explanation was requisite, and the Right Hon. Gentle man would have neglected his duty, if having called for the documents, he had not directed the attention of the House to the numerous appointments which they presented. The docu ments to which the attention of the House had been called evidently required explanation, if not justification, as there never was an instance of so limited a sum requiring so large a number of persons for its management. But as the expla nation was given, if, in point of fact, the business was expe dited by the number of appointments, and that the expense was not increased ; if there was no further claim made, the arrangement could not be pronounced a bad one. Still as the appearances were suspicious, the opportunity of explana nation should rather be sought than avoided, and he wondered that a Reformed House was not inclined to view it in that way. The circumstances were such as made a prima facia case of inquiry, and all must admit that explanation was ne cessary. Neither could it be denied that Commissions, though sometimes necessary, and, even admitting that they were not issued for corrupt purposes, very frequently afforded oppor tunities of patronage. No doubt in many cases, especially where local inquiries were to be made, commissions were absolutely necessary. It was impossible to draw the line. But it was to be carefully guarded against, lest the habit of issuing Commissions too frequently should induce the House to throw upon others the burden of these details which more properly they ought to take upon themselves. The ap pointment of Commissions should therefore be viewed with great jealousy, not out of any apprehension of corrupt motives, but lest it should induce them to throw off their own shoulders those duties which though, probably irksome, were still essential to enable them properly to discuss the various subjects which came under consideration. But without imputing any blame it was quite impossible to deny the fact that if Government had the power of bestowing 104 appointments under Commission on members of the Bar, it must necessarily exercise .a considerable influence over the legal profession. It was most unjust to impute any blame to his Right Hon. Friend for making inquiry on this subject ; on the contrary, the Government should thank him for giving them an opportunity of making a satisfactory explanation ; and the reformed House of Commons ought to applaud the watch ful_vigilance which he had so fairly exercised. Mr: SPRING RICE did not - impute blame to his Right Hon. Friend for bringing this question forward, but he thought he had reason to complain of the speech which he had made ; for if the Government had contented itself with simply ex plaining the fresh appointments, with which explanation the House appeared to be satisfied—(Hear)—there would have been, no doubt, an inference drawn without doors, that infer ence arising from the tenor of the Right Hon. Gentleman's observations, that the present Government had in relation to this matter acted disingenuously, and that many parts of its proceedings it was anxious to conceal. Now the Government was quite ready to render every account that would be re quired of them ; but surely it was not fair to impute disinge nuousness to them, because they made a return, as that return was required by the Act. Mr. GOULBURN—I did not say so. Mr. SPRING RICE—No, but that was the inference obviously to be drawn from it.—(Na, from Mr. Goulburn.) Well, then, he was glad to find that even his Right Hon. Friend admitted that he had no imputation to cast on the Go vernment. But if the accounts of /the Commissioners were excluded from these returns now, so had they been excluded in former years ; and when Gentlemen talked of the expenses now incurred under Commissions, they should remember the expenses of Commissions in former times. He had now a paper before him, by which it appeared that from 1807 to 1829 the expense of Commissions was 956,885/., and the amount in some single years of that period exceeded the total expense of the Commissions issued by the present Government. He had not the precise amount, but in some of those years the ex penses were as high as 90,000/. He did not mention this to blame former Governments, but to justify the present.—( Hear, hear.) It was quite true that Commissions had lately in creased in number ; but they had been grappling with nume rous and most important questions, on which it was desirable to procure the fullest possible information.—( Hear.) Take the case of the most expensive one ; for instance, that relating to the Poor Laws. Would the Right Hon. Gentleman have been satisfied, would the House have been satisfied, to legislate on that subject, without the most complete in vestigation ?—( Hear, hear.) How would they have been twitted with legislating in the dark, if they had not taken such a preliminary 1 and how unfair, then, was it to make that a matter of charge and complaint against them !—( Cheers.) With regard to the appointment of Lord Napier at Canton, it would be found, on comparing the expense of the Govern ment establishment with that kept up by the East India Com pany, that the former was infinitely less than the latter. The Hon. Member for Middlesex had objected to the 10,0001. per annum paid to Mr. Macaulay. No one would regret that ap pointment in one sense more than he did • for it deprived the country of a wise and learned legislator, and that House of one of its brightest ornaments.--( Hear.) But with regard to the salary, the simple answer was, that it was the amount fixed by the Act of Parliament. Many expenses, too, were necessarily incurred under the Reform Bill. Amongst others there were the Boundary Commission and the Municipal Commission, the utility of which would not be denied. Doubtless, all Commissions were expensive ; but the question was, whether the expense was more than necessary, and whether it was not inevitably incurred for the purpose of carrying forward those reforms which the country and that House demanded at their hands.—( Hear, hear.) He repeated, that he found no fault with his Right Hon. Friend for bringing the matter forward ; he only found fault with those inferences which it was calcu lated to raise. being Supplies Mr. SHE IL said, with regard to the establishment at Can ton, the Americans contrived to do their business for a much less sum than we did. He was surprised to find that a chap lain was appointed there at a salary of 1,0001. a year. He did not object to the issuing of Commissions, but he objected to the delay of their reports. Why had not the Irish Corpora tion Commission, which, he believed, had concluded its la bours (and was to have made its report in the beginning of the year), made its report yet ? As for the grant of a million to the Irish clergy, the necessity for that grant arose in the de lay of settling the Irish Church. Had the bill of 1832 been passed, that million would have been saved. Still when the distribution of one million required 40 barristers and 70 clerks, he was happy to have to thank the Government for one act of economy. The Commission of Public Instruction had to extend its labours over the whole of Ireland, yet it consisted of but ten Commissioners and four clerks, and each Commis sioner would have to visit about 500 parishes. He wished seriously to ask of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, whe ther it was not intended to increase the numbers of this Com mission ; at present it must of necessity be ineffective. Mr. LITTLETON said the subject had recently been under consideration, and he believed the numbers would be in creased. Mr. GROTE said that the only way of preparing proper remedies and reforms for the various abuses of the State, was, by Commissions of Inquiry, composed of fit and competent men. He did not think Government earried economy quite so far as they ought, but there was no grant which he would more cheerfully vote for than one for remunerating useful and efficient Commissioners. In every important reform which had been made, the House had acquired all its information from Commissioners. Witness the reforms in the law, all of which sprung from the reports of the Law Commissioners' Reports, which were exceedingly instructive, and contained the views of the opponents of the reforms as well as those of their pro moters. So also with the report of the Poor Law Commis sioners, the most useful of all. No report was like it.—( Hear. ) With regard to Mr. Macauley's salary, he differed from the Right Hon. Secretary.—( Hear.) He thought it was rather too much to bestow such an appointment upon a gentleman so young in years, with such a salary as 10,0001.—a salary which the superior servants of the Company did not obtain till after years of experience and toil.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. C OBBE TT disagreed with the Hon. Member who spoke last as to the value of the Poor Law Commission, and indeed of Commissions generally. If a commission was is sued, the Ministers selected the Commissioners, and they, of course, selected men who thought with themselves on the sub ject which they were going to inquire into.—(A laugh) Such Commissioners would take very good care not to make a re port disagreeable to their employers. Then came down the Minister with the report to the House. God knows Minis ters were not too feeble already; but when they came backed with the report of a Commission in support of their favourite measures, who could withstand them ?—( Hear.) They had all that advantage on the Poor Law question. The Hon. Member for London had praised that celebrated report ; and said that it was unlike any that had ever come from the press. In that he agreed with him. But unfortunately they had to pass the Bill without having read the report. These voluminous reports, which had cost the country 60,000/. ; were not wholly laid on the table till after the Bill had been read a second time, nor some of them till some time after it had been in committee. Some of these volumes he was sure the Noble Lord (Althorp) had never read. He was sure of it, because in one volume alone there were seventy distinct libels against him (Mr. Cobbett) personally—( Great laughter) —and of course the Noble Lord, had he read a work which contained seventy libels against a Member of that House, would have felt himself bound to notice them.—( A laugh.) Something should be done to prevent Hon. Members of that House from being libelled in papers put forward under the sanction of that House. Some years ago Lord Kenyon had laid it down as a rule that there was no remedy for a libel if reprinted or republished from any publication made by order of that House. Therefore any person might, if he pleased, re publish these libels against him, and he could not even indict them —no, he could not even indict the Noble Lord opposite ( Althorp) if he were to republish the libels.—( A laugh.) In the Beer Bill report last year, two persons were grossly libelled ; they were a man and woman, and were pointed out by name and address as guilty of adultery. He saw no reason why his name should be mentioned in the report of these hired and falsehood -retaining Commissioners. Mr. SHAW said that as to the million advanced to the Irish Clergy, its necessity was not owing to the delay of the Irish Church Bill, as had been stated by the Hon. Member for Tip perary, but to the declaration made by the Noble Lord last Session. He noticed this now, because he was apprehensive that Ministers meant to do the same thing again. After the shuffling in the Bill introduced as far back as February last,, he was afraid Ministers would find themselves in the same difficulty as before ; that they would resort to the same vulgar expedient of putting their hands into the people's purse, to get out of it. For his part, he would never consent to such a proposition. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Hon. Member for Oldham was mistaken in his law. Lord Kenyon's rule only applied to a criminal information, which he refused to grant ; but the remedy by civil action or by indictment was open to every individual who felt himself aggrieved by any such papers. Mr. YOUNG wished to ask the Right Hon. Bart., late First Lord of the Admiralty, whether it was his intention to proceed with the Merchant Seamens' Registration Bill this Session ? Sir JAMES GRAHAM did not, at this advanced period of the Session, mean to press the Bill, but he did not doubt that the Government would, next Session, feel the propriety of in troducing some similar measure. Lord ALTHORP said it could not be in better hands, and that the principle of the present measure seemed to be satisfactory. THE BUDGET. On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the Order of the day for going into a Committee of Ways and Means was read. Lord ALTHORP then rose, and said he had now to ad dress the committee, in order to lay before them tfie financial statements of the year, and a sketch of the prospects which it appeared to him might be fairly anticipated. Under existing circumstances, it was unnecessary for him to detain them by any preliminary observations ; but he would at once go into the' question, and state to the House the plans which he in tended to submit to them. . He should begin by stating what was the amount of income and expenditure of the year ending the sth July last. The receipts of that year were ... £46,914,586 Whilst the payments during the same period were.... 44,737,556 Leaving a surplus of income over expenditure of £2,177,030 ( Hear, hear.) He was happy at being enabled to state to the Committee, that this surplus of income over expenditure was larger than any which he had hitherto had the satisfaction of laying before the House.—(l-Tear.) He would compare it with the receipt and expenditure of a similar period of the preceding year :—The surplus of the year ending 5 July, 1834, was _ _ _ £2,117,030 The surplus of the year ending 5 July, 1833 1,502,000 The increased balance in favour of the present year £675,030 The receipts of the present year were, as he had already stated, 46,914,586/. ; last year, 46,895,0071. It appeared, therefore, that the receipts of this year had somewhat increased upon the receipts of last year, although, during that period, taxes to the amount of 1,500,0001. were taken off, whilst the expenditure had been diminished upwards of 650,000/. ( Hear.) He thought this statement with regard to the re venue of the country a most satisfactory one, as it proved there was an elasticity which would enable them still farther to reduce taxation, without any injury to the . permanent revenue of the country. Having made this preliminary state ment as to the gross revenue and expenditure of the country, he would proceed to state what was to be provided for during the ensuing year. The State charge on the Consolidated Fund for the year ending April, 1835, was 30,500,000/. The esti mates for the supplies during the same period, were, . For the An - n . ) . ,7 . £6,497,903 Navy Ordnance Miscellaneous 2,228,387 Making a total for supplies of £14,471,213 This then would give for the total charge next year : Consolidated Fund £30,500,000 14,471,213 Total £44,971,213 which was the sum to be provided for. It would, perhaps, be as -well for a moment to compare this amount with the Sup plies of last year : The Supplies for 1834 were £14,620,487 For 1835 14,471,213 Being a diminution of £149,274 The Committee would, probably, remember, that when he made his financial statement at the commencement of the ses sion, he calculated that the diminution upon the supplies this year would amount to 500,000/. It was necessary for him now to show why it was the diminution had fallen short of that amount. That circumstance was to be accounted for by the grant of various sums which, at the time, he had not calculated upon, and which he could not have contemplated. The first item on the list was a payment to the East India Company, pursuant to an arrangement 'which had been entered into with them, of 125,000/. The next was the expenditure of the Island of St. Helena, which had just been taken into the hands of the Government. This establishment was now on the magnificent scale of the East India Company, whereas, next year, it would be reduced to the economical one of the Government : 99,0001. was certainly an extravagant expenditure—( Hear)--and one which be was quite sure his Hon. Friend next him ( Mr. Secretary Rice) would take care should be materially diminished.— ( Hear.) Then there was 60,0001. for compensation to the parties engaged in the action of Navarino, and 20,000 1 . for the purpose of investigating into, and experimenting on, the pos sibility of steam navigation to India. The First Lord of the Admiralty had also obtained a vote anticipating for one year the payment of the Navy, paying the men immediately, instead of suffering them to wait, as formerly.—( Hear.) , These va rious items mounted up : Payment to East India Company £125,000 St. Helena Navarino Steam Navigation to India 20,000 Payment to Navy lOO,OOO £404,000 In addition to these, he had laid upon the table, a few days since, papers relating to a grant proposed to be made for the British Museum of 1,3001. for the purchase of fossil re mains, and 7,0001. for establishing a prison at Dartmoor, for making experiments on secondary punishments. This would much more than account for the difference between his present and original calculation ; and it was to be re marked, that none of those payments would recur ; and the grant to the navy was only in anticipation of future payments. (" Captain Ross")—Captain Ross's grant was included in the Miscellaneous Estimates. He might, however, have mentioned it. (" The Danish Claims")--No, as for the Danish claims , they must first of all be investi g ated before they were paid. (" The Poles")—The grant to the Poles was included in the Miscellaneous Estimates. These sums, however, all accounted for the difference, and the prompting he had received proved that he had by no means endeavoured to overtsate his case. He wished to show that he had not been extravagantly wrong in his calculations. The question now was, how was he to provide for 44,971,2131., the amount to be raised. He should, in the first instance, assume the income of last year as the probable income of the ensuing year, and if no al teration were made by 'the votes of Parliament, he saw no reason to expect any diminution of income. Unless arising from diminution of taxation, he did not anticipate any falling off in the revenue. The next year's income, taking it as that of last year, would be £46,914,586 Deduet charge to be provided for Leaving a surplus of £1943,373 Now, the committee would see that thi s surplus was less than the surplus which he had quoted from the balance sheet to which he had referred, but which was accounted for by the difference between the charge and expenditure of last year. The charge being £44,920,000 The expenditure Being a saving of He was now speaking of th e y ear ending sth April last, and 273,3801. was the difference between the expenditure and the estimates, and the comparison of the income of last year, taken as the probable income of this year, with the estimate, reduced the surplus to 1,943,3731. This was, however, all on the sup position that no reduction or alteration would be made in taxa tion. But there was a large sum to be provided for, and added to the charge, which would occasion a considerable increase of expenditure, viz., the interest of the 20,000,000/. granted by Parliament to the West India planters, which would constitute a permanent charge of 750,000/. It was true that the money was not payable till the next session. It would be some time in the month of April next that the first portion of the money would be called for ; but the Committee was aware that it bore interest from the Ist day of August next, and consequently that they were now bound to provide for it. In round numbers, then, it stood thus : Charge for ensuing year £44,971,000 Interest on West India grant £45,721,000 which was the actual charge to be provided for, reducing in round numbers the actual surplus to 1,200,0001. But from this 'charge there was a deduction to be made of 120,0001., to be received from the Bank of England ; and also 50,000/., the amount saved by the reduction of the 4 per cents., which would have to be added to the 1,200,0001. surplus, and de ducted from the charge. Then he calculated, also, on an in crease in the tea duty ; but he knew that he was calculating on that of which he had no experience, and he had no doubt whatever that in the beginning of the session he had consider ably overrated the probable increase on this head.---( Hear.) But he believed that he did not at present overrate fair expec- THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JULY 26, 1834, V tation, when he calculated on an addition of 250,0001. He thought there was every reason, to believe that the duties on tea would produce this increase under the new system. He felt confident that tea would be cheaper under that system than under the old one—( Hear); and a reduction in theprice of tea must lead to a consequent increase of consumption, and of duty, which he believed he did not overrate at 250,0001. Deducting these sums from the charge, the surplus would be increased to 1,620,000/., as follows : Original surplus Bank 120,000 lour per Cents. Tea Surplus. - Z1,620,000 (Loud cheers.) It might here be proper for him to state with reference to the sum to be received from the Bank, that though he had not entirely, he should rather say, formally, concluded any arrangement with the Bank of England for the repayment of one-fourth of their capital, which must be paid before the sth October next, yet it was in so forward a state of progress that he thought the effect of it would be not to reduce the sur plus more than 1,2001. a-year.—( Hear.) He now wished to call the attention of the House to the consideration of some particular duties. During the course of this session and the last, great complaints had been made of the increase in the .consumption of spirits, and in the number of persons habi tually drinking raw spirits, as well as the great increase of shops and establishments splendidly furnished for the purpose. —( Hear, hear.) He regretted the evil ; but it was not his intention to propose any increase in the duties on spirits. Any Gentleman who had attended to questions of finance must well know that increasing the duty on spirits would do no good whatever either in the shape of increasing the revenue or of diminishing their consumption.—( Hear.) He was not one of that school who imagined they could produce morality by, taxation. But when it was practicable, when a case presented itself to him in which an increase might be made to the revenue without at the same time increasing immo rality, that was a case on which he might most justifiably act. It was perfectly well known, for the knowledge was the result of many experiments on the subject, that increase of duty on spirits was not always calculated to produce an increase of revenue ; as that increase operated powerfully in the en couragement of .illicit distillation and smuggling. But with respect to the duty on licenses for the sale of spirits, he believed that the House would agree with him, that those licenses would hear an increase of duty, which increase of duty would not be liable to be attended by the same results as an increase in the duty on spirits themselves. What was the state of the law at present with respect to the duty on these licenses ? 'I here were three classes of those duties--the first class was that of wholesale dealers not allowed to sell less than two gallons, or to consume on the premises ; the second class was that of the retailers dependinr , on magistrates' licenses, and varying according to value of house from two guineas to ten guineas ; the third class, which was peculiar to Ireland, consisted of licenses to persons previously licensed to sell gro ceries. He did not mean to touch either the first or the last of those classes, as he did not think that either of them could well bear an increase of duty. But on the third class, con sisting of retail spirit dealers, an additional duty might, he was persuaded, be levied without disadvantage, if,not indeed with great benefit to the public. If the effect of such an in crease in the duty on spirit licenses of retail dealers were to reduce the number of public-houses, which he scarcely thought would be the case, the diminution of revenue thereby occasioned would be amply compensated by public advantages of another description.—( Hear, hear.) After some conside ration it appeared to him that licenses for the retailing of spi rits in England would well bear an increase of 50 per cent. The effect of this additional duty would be to increase the re venue by 160,0001. The amount of revenue derived from the duty on retail spirit licenses, being at present 336,3441. viz. No. of Licenses, 38,500 Ditto 26,205 Ditto 3,700 Ditto 2,154 Ditto 3,879 Ditto 2,472 Ditto 4,700 81,610 £335,344 It was also his intention to propose another alteration of duty on licenses, in which he hoped that he should again meet with the concurrence of the House. He meant to propose making a difference in the duty on the licenses to those beer-houses in which the beer was drunk on the premises, and the duty on the licenses to those beer-houses in which the beer was not drunk on the premises.--( Hear, hear.) At present the duty on licenses to all beer-houses was two guineas. It was his intention to raise the duty on licenses to those beer-houses in which the beer was drunk on the premises to three guineas, and to reduce the duty on licenses to those beer-houses in which the beer was not drunk on the premises to one guinea. (Hear, hear.) The number of licenses granted to beer-shops was at present 34,976, producing a revenue of 73,4501. From the change which he had stated it was his intention to propose in the duty on these licenses, he expected that the revenue would derive an increase of 35,0001., it being highly probable that the reduction of the duty to one guinea on the licenses for selling beer not to be drunk on the premises, would induce many persons to 'take out licenses of that description ; while, on the other hana, the increase of the guinea in the duty on licenses for selling beer to be drunk on the premises was not likely very much to diminish the number of licenses issued for that purpose. The - effect of the propositions which he had stated, namely, the increase of the duty on the licenses for retailing spirits, and the variation of the duty on the licenses for selling beer, would be to increase the surplus revenue to 1,815,0001., viz., Present surplus £1,620,000 Spirits Beer £1,815,000 He now came to describe the reductions of taxation which he had already proposed, and which he was now about to propose. The first, and by much the largest of these, was the reduction which he had already proposed of the house-tax, amounting to 1 ,200,000/. There was then the measure known by the name of the Customs Bill, which had been brought in by his Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and which contained a number of reductions of duty on various imported articles, chiefly used in our manufactures, into the details of which it was unnecessary for him then to enter ; but the whole amount of which he might state at about 200,000/. The re venue arising from the duty on starch had fallen off very con siderably, for although it was an article in considerable use in our manufactures, yet the duty was subject to very considera ble drawbacks, and a quantity of potatoe starch, which was not subject to duty, was made, and answered all the purposes of the genuine starch. By relinquishing the duty on starch, which it was his intention to propose, the revenue would lose about 75,000/. Another duty which he meant to repeal was, the duty on stone bottles and sweets, the produce of which was 6,000/. He now came to the assessed taxes. The duties which he proposed to repeal were as follows, viz.:— Estimated Rate of Duty Loss by Repeal. £. s. d. On windows in farm-house, occupied by tenants under 2001. a year, or by owners under 1001. a year, and not having an in come exceeding 1001. a year from any other source On husbandry horses, used occasionally for riding or drawing untaxed carriages, by tenants of farms under 5001. a year, or owners, being the occupiers of farms under 2501. year, and not having an income ex ceeding 1001. a year from any other source. The present exemption only extends to far mers not exceeding 2001. a year, and hav ing -so other source of income but their farms On husbandry horses used occasionally for other purposes, or let occasionally to hire. Husbandry horses are exempt, but are liable to a duty of 10s. 6d., if used in draw ing coal, gravel, &c. ; or if occasionally let for hire 0 10 6 2,000 On horses used by bailiffs, shepherds, or herdsmen 1 8 9 2,000 On shepherds and herdsmen's dogs On male servants under 18 years of age, pro vided they have a legal settlement in the parish where hired 1 4 0 20,000 On one riding-horse, kept by clergymen, or Dissenting or Catholic ministers, whose in comes are under 1201. per annum. At present the exemption is confined to clergy men of the Established Church, with an income not exceeding 601 1 8 9 3,000 The Bachelors' duty (additional 205.) on male servants kept by Roman Catholic clergymen On post-horses used occasionally by licensed postmasters in husbandry, and for drawing manure, fuel, &c. An innkeeper is liable to a duty of 10s. 6d. if he use a post-horse occasionally in drawing coals, hay, or corn, for his own use 0 10 6 75,100 Another reduction which he intended to propose was not com prehended in assessed taxes, but belonged to the stamp duties. It was a small duty, but it was one which produced a great deal of irritation and violation of the law. He alluded to the duty on almanacks—( Hear. hear)—which in England was Is. 3d. each, and in Ireland 9d. and 6d. each, producing a revenue of 25,0001. The whole amount of taxation thus re duced would be 1,581,000/., viz. : House Tax £1,200,000 Customs Bill Starch 75,000 Stone bottles and sweets Assessed Taxes Almanacks 25,000 X 1,581,000 He had already stated that the present surplus, with the addi tion of the increased revenue from the augmented duty on spirit and beer licenses, was 1,815,0001. Deducting from that sum the whole amount of taxes rethiced, viz., 1,581,0004 the effect would be to leave a surplus of 235,0001. He had, how ever, stated this account in a most unfavourable manner for himself. He had included in the charge 400,0004, which was applicable to the present year only ; and, therefore, if he stated as the result of the permanent balance that it would leave a surplus of 600,0004, he believed he should understate the amount. But looking to the present year only, there would be saved nearly half the interest on the West India grant, say 350,0007., and there would only be to be deducted from the receipts half the house -tax, or 600,0001., making to gether 950,000/. The balance, therefore, to be calculated upon for the present year amounted to 1,185,000/. With this surplus we were in a state to try the experiment whether, in one important article of revenue r we might not venture on a certain reduction of duty, with a fair expectation that such reduction, by increasing the quantity produced of the article to which that duty referred, might eventually augment instead of diminishing the public income. He had already stated, that however desirable it might be to make spirits. an article of taxation, there was great danger that the effect of so doing would be to increase illicit distillation, and to give encourage ment to smuggling. This was a fact which the history of the duty on spirits strikingly pointed out. He would briefly state to the House the_ effect which had at various times been pro duced by changes in the duty on spirits in England, in Scot land, and in Ireland, separately, in order that they might be better able to judge whether the proposition which it was his intention to submit to them on the subject deserved their ap probation. The rate of duty on spirits for home consumption in England, previous to the year 1827, was 11s. 91d. the im perial gallon. The average quantity of spirits brought to charge, during the last three years of the old law, was 3,959,990 gallons. The duty was then reduced to 7s. 6d. the imperial gallon ; and in the year immediately following, the quantity of spirits brought to charge rose to 7,407,204 gallons. In the subsequent years, the duty remaining at 7s. 6d. the imperial gallon, the quantity of spirits brought to charge was as follows, viz.:- In 1825 1829 7,759,687 1830 1831 1832 1833 1834 It thus appeared that the effect of lowering the duty in Eng land had been to double the quantity of spirits brought to charge. In Scotland, previously to the year 1825, the rate of duty on spirits for home consumption was 6s. 2d. the imperial gallon. The average quantity of spirits brought to charge in Scotland in the three last years of the old law was 2,158,200 imperial gal lons. The duty was reduced to 25.4/d. a gallon. The conse quence was, that in the year ending sth January, 1825, the quantity of spirits brought to charge rose to 4,334,222 gal lons, and in the year 1826 to 5,980,941 gallons. In the year 1827 the duty was increased from 2s. 4d. to 2s. 10d., and s the consequence was that the quantity of spirits brought to charge in that year fell from 5,980,941 gallons to 3,988,788 gallons ; thus showing the extraordinary influence of an augmentation of duty. In 1828 the amount brought to charge recovered a little, it being 4,752,136 gallons. In 1829 it was 5,695,743 gallons. In 1830 it was 5,756,951 gallons. In 1831, during the latter part of which year the duty was increased from 2s. 10d. to 3s. 4d., the amount brought to charge was 5,992,421 gallons. The duty re mained at 3s. 4d., and the amount of spirits brought to charge in-Scotland in the subsequent years was as follows, viz.- 1832 5,691,096.,.35. 4d. 1833 5,401,651...35. 4d. 1834 5,982,920...35. 4d. Year ending sth April, 1834 6,112,659...35. 4d. Half-year ending sth April, 1834 3,257,856...35. 4d. He had stated these details in order to prove that the quantity of spirits brought to charge in Scotland had gradually in creased up to the present time, and that there was every indi cation that it would go on increasing. He now came to Ire land ; and here the effect that had been produced by the alte rations which had taken place in the rate of duty on spirits was very remarkable. Previous to the year 1825 the rate of duty on spirits in Ireland for home consumption was ss. 7i-d. the imperial gallon. The ,verage amount of the q uantity of spirits brought to chargen Ireland during the last three years of the old distillery law was 3,173,948 gallons. When the duty was reduced to 2s. 4d. a gallon, the quantity of spirits brought to charge in the year ending sth January, 1825, rose to 6,690,313 gallons. In 1826 it rose still further, to 9,262,742 gallons. In 1827 the duty was increased to. 2s. 10d. and the quantity of spirits brought to charge immediately fell to 6,834,866 gallons. In the year 1828 the quantity was. 8,260,663 gallons ; in 1829 the quantity was 9,937,633 gallons ; and in 1830 the quantity was 9,212,222 gallons. The duty was then raised to 3s. 4d. a gallon, and the con sequence was, that the-amount of spirits brought to charge in Ireland fell, in 1831, to 8,981,595 gallons ; in 1832, to 8,635,081 gallons ; in 1833, to 8,594,331 gallons ; and in 1834, to 8,136,281 gallons. From this it appeared that since the increase of duty to 3s. 4d. a gallon, the quantity of spirits brought to charge in Ireland had been gradually diminishing. But although the quantity of spirits brought to charge in Ire land amounted at present to little more than 8,000,000 of gallons, there was no doubt whatever that the quantity of spi rits actually consumed in Ireland amounted to from 12,000,000 to 14,000,000 annually. Such being the case, his Majesty's Government had felt it their duty to take the subject into their serious consideration, with a view to ascertain whether it might not be advisable, by a diminution of the duty, to prevent illicit distillation, and at the same time not to expose the re venue to the danger of much loss. It was clear that; in Ire land, the effect of the duty of 3s. 4d. had been the continual diminution in the quantity of spirits brought to charge ; proving, together with the increase of illicit distillation, that the taxation of spirits had considerably passed the limit of productiveness. Under these circumstances it had been thought right in this year, when there was a large surplus revenue which would allow the experiment to be made, to propose a considerable reduction in the duty on spirits for home consumption in Ireland. He felt confident that, by re ducing the duty to the amount of 15.,-that was, by reducing it from 3s. 4d. a gallon to 2s. 4d. a gallon, very advantageous results would be obtained. The effect which he anticipated from the reduction of duty was, that the amount of spirits, brought to charge in Ireland would rise at once from 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 of gallons. If ,so, the loss to the revenue in the present year would not exceed 200,000/. ; and he was confident that the increase of spirits brought to charge in Ireland, in future years, in consequence of the reduction of duty, would be such that the revenue would suffer no diminu tion whatever. This was what he contemplated in an earlier part of this session, when he stated to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, that lie hoped to be able to bring forward a measure which might diminish the taxation in Ireland, with out material injury to our financial condition. He should not be justified in proposing a similar reduction with respect to Scotland ; because it was evident, from the statement which icie had already made, that under the present rate of duty, the quantity of spirits brought to charge in Scotland was annually increasing, while, under the present rate of duty, the quan tity of spirits brought to charge in Ireland was annually diminishing. He was justified, therefore, in applying to Ire land a measure which he should not be' ustified in applying to Scotland. Upon the whole, the probable permanent balance of income above expenditure would be 235,0001. He enter tained the greatest confidence in the elasticity of the resources of the country. If he were increasing taxation instead of di, minishing it, it might be dangerous to leave so small a sum as that which he had mentioned ; but as it was, he did not appre hend any danger whatever. Let the balance-sheet of 1831 be compared with the balance of July, 1834, they were as follows, viz.:- January, 1831.-Receipts Payments ....£50,056,616 ~.. 47,142,943 July, 1834.—Receipts Payments £2,913,637 ..£46,914,586 .. 44,737,556 £2,177,030 The present surplus, therefore, was only 740,000/. less than it was in 1831; but the amount of taxes reduced in the inter val had been exclusively of those which he now proposed to reduce, upwards of 6,300,000/. The reduction of the income had been only 3,000,0001. ; the reduction of the expenditure had been 2,405,3871. When he looked at the official value of the exports from the United Kingdom for the three years 1828, 1829, and 1830, and compared them with those for the three years 1831, 1832, and 1833, he saw.no reason to appre hend any danger on the score of diminished commerce. The return was as follows : Produce Foreign and Years. o the Colon al Total Unite 1 Merchan- Exports. Kingdom. dize. Z. Z. I Z. 1828 1829 1830 170,150,000 29,118,000 199,270,000 Average 56,716,000 9, 06,000 66,423,000 Years. 1831 1832 1833 195,698,000 1 31,622,000 227,323,000 Average 65,232,000'10,540,000 75,774,000 Increase on the average o the last three years, as 8 516 000 834,000 9 , 351 , 000 compared with the former " three years He felt, therefore, that he had a right to express confidence in the increasing commercial prosperity of the country. At the same time he admitted that a great commercial country was liable to fluctuations, which it was not always possible to anti cipate, and that he should be wrong, therefore, if he himself entertained, or if he attempted to inspire the House with sanguine expectations on the subject. This, however, he would unhesitatingly say, that the trade of Great Britain was at this moment in a sound and healthy state. Having made these statements, he would conclude with one observation. During the last year the House had thought proper to vote by a large majority the sum of 20,000,0001. for the purpose of procuring the emancipation of slaves. In the statement which he had made, he had shown the means by which he proposed to meet the charge which that vote threw upon the revenue of the country. And yet after providing the large sum necessary for that pur pose he had been able to reduce the taxation upwards of 1,500,000/.—( Hear, hear.) The effect of this act on the part of the Parliament of Great Britain must unquestionably be to excite the astonishment and admiration of foreign na tions. They saw that for the purposes of justice and humanity this country was prepared to make advances of money, which scarcely any nation of the Continent could furnish, even for purposes of extreme urgency ; and yet that in the very same year we were able to provide for the charge which that advance entailed upon us, and at the same time to reduce taxation to a very considerable extent. This was certainly most gratify ing and satisfactory, and it was the more gratifying and the more satisfactory, as the object in view was so great and be neficent. The Noble Lord then moved the first resolution, and sat down amidst hind and long-continued cheers. Mr. BARING would not trouble the House with many ob servations, for there was not much of novelty in the statements of the Noble Lord ; and as to the reductions of duty which the Noble Lord had announced his intention of proposing, the only one which was of much importance was the reduction of the duty on spirits in Ireland. As to the general principles on • which the financial system of the country was at present carnoilit on, it was well k nown that he materially differed on .that t he from the Noble Lord. He would not, however, rel t hat opinions which he had expressed on that subject, knowleF o b. they were unpopular in that House ; but he would merel e te r serve that it was mighty easy for a Finance Minister, Yea r t r ) i e year, to propose a reduction of taxation, and to ta lk to ° leave buoylsncy and elasticity of our fi na nc e s y s tem, and then the country-to all the chances of distress which might arise ' u oble some sudden and unexpected fluctu a ti o n. When the / 1 or Lord said that his predecessors in office left a larger StirP. obis a larger margin, as it was termed, than he, all that the 100, Lord did was to show that Ire was prepared to purchas e larity at a risk which other Finance Ministers, who, as V o ble men, were more conscientious - and scrupulous than the sa id Lord, would not venture to incur. The Noble Lord that he had a surplus of about 400,000/. in the Pre al s o t pt year ; but that the permanent surplus would be_ „ tt io 200,000/.'Notv, to have only a surplus of 200,006/. in a of about 50,000,0001., was, in fact, to have no surpl us a t a d for he was quite sure that the Noble Lord, and those ri b V. e r wised the Noble Lord on financial subjects, must be v er y indeed, if they could predict what would be the resu lt or of financial operations of any given year within the °toe 200,0001. one way or the other. The increase or the deo' reat of the income of the country must of course depend, in an t he measure, on the prosperity or the want of prosperity .110 country. When the country was prosperous, consurnPtwori; creased, and an increase of the revenue naturally fel l° oo d, when the country was not prosperous, consumption decree as and a decrease of the revenue naturally followed. A s 1° c f . as manufactures and commerce went on tolerably well, sli os long as the people were comfortable, the revenue woul d i f- t uy increasing. But these were matters subject to grea t 11 celoor tions ; sometimes going up hill, and sometimes going r t he hill with unexpected velocity and some time or anotbe4 no ` system of finance at present adopted, which not only I f e" . e . surplus revenue, but actually anticipated an increas e o could nue, would give way under those who trusted it, an d : eon' leave the Noble Lord, and those whose opinions were ,11 h i c h formity to the opinions of the Noble Lord, in a condition 'rose, would not be one of exultation and triumph. To th e r „ e o ed tions of duty, amounting to 200,0001., which it was Pr ° t ,r , oo 3 , to effect by the Customs' Bill, he entertained great obi ee- t bel Forming a part of the general reductions of the Ye e ' d t he ought to have been brought forward by the Noble Lor Chancellor of the Exchequer, and not by the Rig h + t i l ers Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. Le"harbe be proposed by whom they might, however, he must say, t r r e , never knew 200,000/. more deliberately thrown away , ° re at ductions of taxation of so little importance. He was t i ° ' the a loss to understand the reason of reducing the duties ` se re as importation of dried fruits, dried currants, &c., They be. much luxuries as any articles of consumption could we', r e , He could not divine why such articles were selected for. 00 duction of duty in preference to a thousand other articieest which a reduction might be more advantageously effe tea. Perhaps the proposition might be intended 'as a r elief r° hoo . growers of fruits in the lonian Islands. Their distres n s , Gree ce. ever, arose from the competition of other parts of h The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) here went throtig n cd various articles comprised in the Customs Bill, and cen de % oil them all, with the exception of the reduction of the duty.? p a used in manufactures. If instead of such propositions l' or of been practicable to relieve the manufacture of glas s of cottons by the reduction of duties, then indeed tbe„, e i f pro' might have derived some benefit from the measure. 1 '1;ot posed reduction of the duty on coals appeared to him t° nde d only a useless waste of the public money, but to be s t ! e ste aa with considerable danger to our manufactures. I f of hiding this proposed reduction in the Customs .- - „po' had been brought forward as an open and distinct P' r - 01 1Y sition, he was persuaded that it would have been ° l ol l, opposed by the great body of manufacturers in the ce, e oen ts and among them by the Right Hon. Gentleman's cees t ' i ct ioe at Manchester. He (Mr. Baring) considered this retltliesty to be exceedingly injudicious, not only as getting rid us c i d e r' of a large amount of public income, but as affording eon enter able encouragement to the manufactures of our Coe tw biee' rivals. To this reduction he entertained insuperable ° ' IO DI tions, not only as it might affect the poor, but on the g t ,. o ° , D y that it would sooner or later strike a dreadful blow at t '''„ o .4 4 nufacturing power of the country. There was in the P r°l- 00 , alteration a positive and serious danger. The other red'il e , io e , with the exception he had mentioned, were foolish ae ° ,, -- f ore cessary, and to consider them further he looked upon as s ma ck waste of time. Then he must go to the statement ju st by the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, alito him that he had kept little of the promise he had maw s theY t lieve the landowners from the severe distress under wl" e b - iiti el' were labouring. That distress the Noble Lord had frequently acknowledged—Ministers proclaimed it in th e 'ref, speech—the Noble Lord had given frequent assurances d, re v al' and it now turned out that the boasted reductions were litt,!er'ses. try taxes on shepherd's dogs, on farmers boys,and farmersl° old —( Hear, and a laugh). In the whole list the Noble lieL uc t an I find no items but these to reduce—none which would eneedoes substantial relief. Could not the Noble Lord have r,, i i o g . s the stamps on leases, and on the insurance of farm buttusib, and stock ? He would have had no difficulty in finding - %, o t , stitute for any amount of loss which the revenue migh t If the He did not wish to raise a discussion- on the subject °toot malt tax—that great burden on the agriculturist, but Ile circ a observe to the Noble Lord, that the sum of fifteen / 0 1 to thousand pounds which, on his own showing, he was an apply to the relief of the country, would h ave a ff o rded ` 17 1 ;: , duction of five shillings on the malt tax, which by the ° be er , tution of other and far less impolitic imposts, might have d to increased to ten shillings. But the Noble Lord prefe r° be yield to clamour, and repeal the h ouse -t ax es, for whi c , i ( l' D ot doubted not, now they had got it, the shopkeepers "u` b°°l thank him, as by this time they had found out that th e n on was to the landlords and not to themselves. He vvishei'r to call the attention of the House to some transactions °` Noble Lord's, or of persons connected with his defer r'ob'e in reference to the financial affairs of the country. Th e 'OO Lord had announced his intention of attempting a eo n in bti b of existing stock into one payinc , a lower interest ; an" fs iles; attempt, if he had not entirely, he certainly had partial' , d tite for the old stock amounted to about eleven millions, t o o< dissentients to his scheme were not less than five 13 1 "" - bie° hear.) Why did not the Noble Lord in the statemen t ;60 0 he had just made giv e th em some i n f o r ma ti on o f his ef er-- 0 h in reference to this pla n ? or , a t a ll e v ent s , w hy did th l7 state what means he had at his disposal for paying / ° , l bac e r large amount of dissentients? He (M r . Baring) shav't thought that such particulars for me d a necessar y P°r To the statement of the financial Minister of the countrY k ' o , c; return, however. It had come to his (Mr. Barinii's); -'1 11 3 " ledge, on authority which he could not doubt, thatbthe: e , j , been some most extraordinary operations in stock go i ,i'pvotiv on behalf of the Government. He was surpriserl,u:be measure to learn that the Government agents were t l3 " l ,;; D e t° ing in one stock and selling out another ; that traffi e- t L° an enormous extent had been carried on by there/ II amount and in a way which was in fact ineiplicab le* certainly doubted his information at fi r st, th oug h it cartfi e r itief 4 the most respectable quarter : but it was very soon e„„ r e ° " - ' by evidence which admitted of no cavil, and he 1 5 moved for those papers, a portion of which had p ea laid that night upon the table of the House. Those by 11 had indeed been refused in the first instance- -- t'bo could not tell, for they were of a class which 1 tits" hitherto been the invariable custom of the Governe le "ee l '" , mediately to grant. He was at a loss formerly to OOP on what grounds the Noble Lord refused these papers ;, was still more at a loss to account for his conduct after I°Tb over the documents which had been laid upon the tabl e ' o' 4 Commissioners for the reduction of the national debt Iniio o year the application of no less a sum of money than (met Sr,' and they had also under their control th e deposits at t,, l j o s s ' vings' Banks, which amounted to upwa r d s o f s i x teen T all er' These Commissioners were, the Ch ance ll or o f t h e El e ' e the Governor of the Bank of E ng l an d, t h e D e p u ty W T .': th e and other persons in whom, f rom t h e i r stat i on an d charae te ie r most implicit confidence could be placed. They were s e cis en as individuals who would t a k e a re li g i ous care o f the fte l st'" trusted to them, and not go about jobbing and trafficit °l : e s•e r ; gambling with the public money. They had not, I , l °:a ber, confined their exertions strictly to their trust, for they f o ol buying and selling, with a view to operate upon the , e r though, he must admit, in the most bungling way that t e ; a rPl had heard of. He was aware that the different Acts e! aoi , ment in reference to these matters, gave a power t ai e nt e ; o with such assets, if the Commissioners thought it Or, but that power merely went to the execution of their trn- ti to ptheewsearfeetfyepoef r t a h t e in ir g property,—and r ndnidthneoftunedxste; nidotothtehre.ol:ootil of jobbing and gambling with that which was not tbei in right, but placed with them in trust. Any Pe rsalj ne eP 4 reads the acts, and to o k a common-sense v i ew ef thueny tion, would clearly see t h at t h ey gave a power -to " - 0 7 t d r e t sell ; but then it was to b uy an d se ll f or the puniest!, trust, and not t o answer anot h er en d . - A n d h e re Pi t ee remark that i n th e Bill passe d l ast S ess i on, i n refe r ` - t ase t the West Indian colonies, this power was given . . 95 ,111,, - , but the word s , " if ex p e di en t," were , w h e th er ' Men, '; 1 , not, others cou ld b e tt er t e ll, en ti re ly l e ft ou t. Of C O° totally acquitted the Noble Lord of any sinister d es this jobbing—he knew he was totally incapable of it. he suspected was, that the Noble Lord was so engre ssc arais; the cares of office—with the breaking up of one t a tration and the formation of another—that the varioustw.ed.4 of late had so distracted his attention, that he was e b ttr:a turn over these matters to some less capable and less d bej, able mind. A grosser misuse of confidence than 11° 00'0 proved in the juggling with the funds of the Savings e° he certainly never heard of. The stock which bad was— Three and a half per cents Three per cents. reduced . Three per cents. consolidated AR 00° Total £ 2 ilt 1 This heavy sum was sold by the Government, or the ir bie W IJ for the purpose of working on the Funds, so as, to 0 1 0 4 Noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to re i a pro Four per Cents. What the Noble Lord's object e tni aid ; 1 ) bly be in converting Stock into Exchequer Bills, be P i t know. The Noble Lord said that by his operati ° ,,, n " benefitted the Funds; but he (Mr. Baring) shoulu; c 4 he would show him in what the advantage consis t a; fi P Commissioners had jobbed and gambled with the 411;rhei bed were placed in their hands specifically as a trust. t , ift been acting in a way that could not be justified. ' lr ol ostor had done good, which he denied, their conduct w a r 00'0 4 prehensible. It was just as if a banker had sent his the oby tial clerk with a heavy sum of money from one encl ° o l ol- ts o o to another, and that clerk had dropped in at L' my th and played the money. He might say, " I 0 311 7,"' o sillg r ed there is the money you entrusted me with ;" but WS, o it had not won the throw ?—( Hear, hear.) The Ft el 4,4 0 . 0 0 peated, had not been benefitted, and the Noble Lord;eaucti certainly failed in his operations with respect to tile