The Sun. — London, England, 1834-03-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF L ORD S, MARCH 18. MESSAGE FROM TIIE COMMONS. Mr. Bernal, Mr. Hodges, Mr. Brotberton, Sir George Staunton, and other members of the House of Commons, brought up the report of the committee on the Warwick election, the Army Mutiny Bill, the Irish Jury Laws Consolidation Bill, the Yarmouth Bridge Bill, and several private bills. DISSENTERS.—UNIVERSITY OF CAMBRIDGE. Earl GREY gave notice that he should on Friday next present a petition from several members of the University of Cambridge, expressing their wish that that University should be open to the admission of Dissenters. The Duke of CUMBERLAND inquired who the petition was from ? Earl GREY replied, from the University of Cam bridge.—(ilear.) INSOLVENT DEBTORS. Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from R. G. Hutt, complaining of the practice in the Insolvent Deb tors' Court. THE DISSENTERS. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented petitions from the Dissenters of parishes in the c .unty of York, praying for a removal of the disabilities under which they laboured. The Earl of UXBRIDGE presented similar petitions from Holyhead and several other places. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented similar petitions from Bucks, Lombard street, Birmingham, Higley, Glamorgansbire, and several other places. PRINTING PAPERS. The Nonts MARQUIS postponed his motion on this sub ject, for the purpose of obtaining further communications on the point. BOROUGH OF WARWICK. Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from the bo rough of Warwick, against the bill for uniting Leamington Priors with that borough, and praying that the petitioners might be heard at the bar. Lord DURHAM, in objecting to the petition, went at some length into the circumstances that took place before the committee upon t! .e subject in the House of Commons, and observed that if the house concurred will the prayer of the petition, it would be a useless waste of time and an extravagant expenditure of the public money. After a few observations from Lord WYNYORD, the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, and the Marquis of SALISBURY, Lord WYNFORD asked the noble Earl (Durham) when he intended to move the second reading of the bill, because he would give notice that on that day he would move that Counsel be heard at the bar of the house. The Earl of DURHAM said, that before naming a clay on which he intended to move the second reading of the bill, be should like to know what course his Majesty's mi nisters meant to pursue, because this was the first of a series of five or six bias that were coming before the house, relative to bribery at elections. Did they intend in all these cases to hear witnesses at the bar of the house, and to incur a heavy expense in going over the same grounds again, and in hearing the same evidence as had been given before the House of Commons ? If they agreed with him in thinking that the other house was the fittest to purify its own representation, he should be prepared to state such a case on the evidence that had been presented, which had been given before the House of Commons, as would entitle him to call for the second reading of the bill. Earl GREY said he did not rise for the purpose of entering into the merits of the case, nor into the fact of whether corruption had prevailed to the extent stated ; neither was he then prepared to give his opinion upon the question of whether the house was bound to hear evidence —be rose on account of the call made upon tbeGovernment by the noble earl (Durham), to state what course, in their opinion, the house ought to take, upon the bill then on the table. It was a matter of very grave consideration, whether upon a question which came before the house in its judicial character, it was right to indict such a heavy punishment upon any individuals without affording them an opportunity of vindicating themselv. s. When the question came on, be would be prepared to give his opinion upon it as an individual; as it was, he had risen to say that he did not consider that it was his duty as a minister to take any steps upon the subject.—(Hear, hear, from the opposition side.) As an individual, he would be prepared to state the views he entertained upon the subject ; but as the case was before the house in its judicial character, be did not think he should be doing his duty in acting as more than an indi vidual member. The Earl of DURHAM said he had made the call upon the government because he remembered that in the case of East Retford a former Government took up the question, and the noble duke then at the head of the Administration stated the views of the Government upon it and took the lead in the matter ; he thought that the same precedent might hare been followed in the present case. He then gave notice that he would move the second reading of the bill on Thursday the 24th April. Lord WYNFORD then gave notice, that he would move on the same day, that the parties be heard by ccun ael et the bar. E.el DURHAM presented petitions from the Pro_ testant dissenters of York-street chapel, Walworth ; of Wandsworth, and several other places in Surrey, prayim; for a removal of the dis ibilities under which they laboured. Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a great number ~f petitions from Dissenters to the same effect. He said he regretted the meagre provisions of the Marriage Bill introduced in another house. In his opinion there ought to be no communication between the ministers of the established church and those of the Dissenters upon such a subject. He also thought that the church ought to be a society separate from and inde pendent of, the state. The NOBLE EARL then presented several petitions from the members of the Established Church at Biggles wade and several other places in the West Riding of the County of York, praying for protectio❑ to the Established Church. CORN LAWS. The Nonts EARL also presented petitions from Liver pool and Nottingham in favour of a free trade in corn ; and gave notice of his intention after the recess of pre senting a similar petition from the metropolie. ENGLISH AND IRISH JUDGMENTS' ASSIMI- LATION BILL. The Marquis of WESTMEAT[I presented a petition from a person in the Marshalsea against this bill, and upon Lord Wynferd moving its second reading, stated that it was his determination to oppose it, if the second read ing was insisted upon at the present moment, as he con sidered the bill vicious in principle. If tbo bill went no further than the preamble, he should have no objection to it. He thought that the further consideration of the bill ought to be postponed till the noble lord (the Chan cellor of Ireland) was in his place in that house. After a few observations from the Marquis of CLAN RICARDY and Lord WYNFORD, the bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday. EXPLANATION. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he understood that what he bad stated last night, to the effect tbat Lord Gif ford and Sir John Leach had repeatedly presided over appeals in the room of the Earl of Eldon and Lord Lynd hurst, hail been misunderstood by these two noble indivi duals. What he meant to have said, although in all pro bability he did not say it, was that Lord Gifford and S.r John Leach had occasionally heard Scotch and Irish ap peals, but not that they bad ever heard English appeal., many of the English appeal cases being considered the peculiar province of the Lord Chancellor. The hills on the table were then advanced a stage, after which the House adjourned till Thurschy. HOUSE OF COMMONS, M.tzes IS. The SPE♦=ER took the chair at twenty minutes past.s. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. The SPEAKER announced to the house that a message had been received from the Lords, stating that their lord ships had agreed to the Marine Duties Bill without any amendments. Mr. H. JOHNSTONE brought up the report of the committee upon some additional provisions to the Dum bartonshire Road Bill. DISSENTERS—(ENGLAND.) Mr. BAINES presented petitions from the dissenters of Leeds, Eccles&ld, Puddesley, Steeley Bridge, and several other places, praying relief. THE PENSION LIST. Mr. HARVEY said that he had been waiting for an open day to bring forward his promised mo tion relative to the pension list. He would now give notice that he should bring it forward on the sth M,iy, and he trusted that he should be afforded an opportunity of doing so. Lord ALTHORP was understood to say that he would afford the hon. member every opportunity in his power. DISSENTERS-ENGLAND. Sir G. STAUNTON presented petitions from the Dissenters of Righy and Throop, is Hampshire, Nunea ton, Rugby, and Atherstone, Warwickshire, praying for relief. . _ Mr. MILDNIAY presented a petition from the Dis senters of Winchester, to the same effect. Mr. BRISCOE presented a petition from the Dim staters of York Chapel, Walworth, to the same effect. Sir GEORGE GREY presented a petition from Tre gony, relative to the Reform Mr. RICE TREVOR presented a petition from the in habitants of Llangavon, for a repeal of the malt tax. 111 r. PLUMPTRE moved for a return of the minutes to be laid on the table of the courtmartial held on Cap tain Aitcheson. Lord SANDON presented two petitions for the better observance of the Sabbath Day from Chester and its neighbourhood. Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from the dis senters of Castletown, praying for relief. Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the Speaker do not issue his warrant for a new writ for the borough of Carrickfergus before the 3d of May. Mr. LEONARD gave notice that he would move for certain returns on the 25th of March. A MEMBER presented a petition from Wootton Under lodge, praying for relief to the Dissenters. COMPULSORY PAYMENT OF CHURCH RATES. Mr. DIVETT, after presenting two petitions from Dissenters, praying for relief, brought forward his motion for the extinction of compulsory payment of church rates throughout England and Wales. That subject, which he had placed on the books of the house at the latter end of last session, and renewed this session, was of a most momentous nature. He would be obliged to claim a large share of that indulgence of the house which was always granted to those who so very seldom trespassed upon its attention. From the first time that he bad paid any attention to the subject o f the compulsory payment of church rates, he had always looked upon it as a subject of great grievance, and although he felt grateful to his Majesty's ministers for the beneficial reforms which they had intro duced, he felt also that now was the time when they ought to remove the grievances under which the dia. 'enters laboured. The opinion of the house ought now to be given upon this subject with a view to its final adjustment.—(Hear.) The meaning of his mo tion was exclusively for the abolition of church rates, but it was connected with many other burdens under which Dissenters laboured, and it was also mixed up with church reform. The noble earl at the bead of his Ma jesty's government had been reported to say in another place that he would resist the vain attempt to abolish the compulsory payment of church-rates as he would resist the attempt to separate church and state. He (Mr. D.) deeply regretted that determination, for so far from its having a tendency to uphold the connection between church and state, it would tend more than any thing else to its separation. The house was aware that in the course of the last two months there bad been a very increasing disposition, not only on the part of the Dis senters, but also on the part of members of the established church, to do away with church rates altogether, and that feeling bad been growing for several years past. He believed that one great cause of the present ter, ng feeling on the part of the dissenters, arose from a measure so far back as the year 1819. In that year an act passed through the house, which granted one million for the building of churches.—(Hear.) This was paid equally by the dissenters and the churchmen ; but in many districts when the dissenters exceeded in number the members of the established church, they were not only taxed with this million to build churches, but incurred a constant tax to keep those churches in repair. This was a very strong ground of complaint on the part of Dis senters.—(Hear.) It was but right to state the amount paid for church rates, which he was enabled to do from a return of the local taxation ending March, 1827. The church rates were there stated to amount to 564,0001., which formed a very important item of the whole amount of the local taxation of the country.— (Hear, hear.) The sum thus received was according to the account expended in the following manner :—The account did not go into detail, but stated in round numbers—for the repair of churches 248,0001., organs and bells 41,0001., bread and wine 16,000/., salaries to clerks and sextons 126,0001.—(Hear, hear.) This appeared to him to be a most serious extravagance, and extremely impolitic, as being not only disgusting to the feelings of the Dissenters, but extremely injurious to the establishment. In calling for the abolition of this cess, he might be asked with very great propriety how he proposed to make up for it. His opinion was, that it was not at all right to charge any man of another religion for the support of a religion from which be dissented. It was said that it would be impossible to maintain the church upon those terms; but let it be re collected that the dissenters bad now 8,000 places of wor ship, and that they raised a sum of not less than one million a year, by voluntary contributions, for the maintenance of their respective churches.—(Hear, hear.) He should be able to show that the sum raised by Dis senters for Missionary and other purposes far t xceeded that raised by the establishment. In discussing this question, he was anxious to separate it altogether from the question of tithes, for anxious as he was to remove an unjust in position upon the Dissenters, he did not wish to touch that property which our ancestors destined should remain for the support of religion.— (Hear.) He knew there was no disposition to do away with the sinecures in the church. He did not wish to attack the church, but at the same time he thought the money thus consumed ought to be applied to other purposes. There appeared to be 300,000/. per annum ostensibly applied to the support of divine service in ca thedrals, and in fact the real amount was much larger. In the case of the cathedral at Exeter 12,000/. per annum was provided, and he understood from good authority that if the property from whence that sum was derived was let at a rack rent, it would produce 70,000/. There were many instances of such property being appropriated to the views of individuals, and in such a way as to beggar the successor and frustrate tt e original object. With regard to the progress of dissent, it would be found to be considerably greater in Wales than the pro gress of the establishment. In the last six months 73,000/. had been raised in Wales for purposes of religious worship. The progress of dissenters hail been very great; the num ber of chapels increased, the congregations that frequented them became more numerous, and with their num bers the feelings of hostility to the establishment always kept place.—(Hear.) Nothing could do more to conciliate the good wishes of the dissenters, and to avert their hostility from the established church, than by according such claims as were just, but notwithstandiug their justice the concession would be received with gratitude.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Nothing would tend more to the interest of the church, or to fix its own stability than by extending the rights that were demanded ; for in all extensive parishes and large towns there was a hostile feeling towards the church, which, though growing stronger every day, it was not impossible to lessen if not remove. He claimed the indulgence of the house while he was trespassing on their patience ; but he had received many papers at so late an hour that evening, that it was impos sible foe him to arrange them so as to come at the infor mation they contained with any degree of facility. He, for his own part, would entreat of that house most earnestly to reform the whole church by removing the grounds of complaint. Inroads were made every day on the church by the dissenters. Let hon. members look back to the time of the reformation. Let them consider whether the Roman Catholic religion was not apparently as strong, at least it was in temporal power, as the established religion of those kingdoms, and still the strong current of public opinion came on rapidly, and taught them at the time that practice at variance with the spirit of Christianity could not stand against it. The established church was situated as the catholic religion was at the timeof the reformation, as regarded abuses. He would remind them that what was possible then was equally so now ; and the dissenters were not less zealous or less effectual in restoring Christianity to its original principles. He was happy to see better feeling springing from the the universities upon this subject.—(Cries of " Hear.") Within the last few hours he had been informed that a petition signed by fifty-four out of 150 of the heads of the University of Cambridge had been forwarded praying that the claims of the Dissenters to be admitted to the Universities of England be taken into the favour able consideration of that house.—(Loutrcries of " Hear, hear.") That formed a strong contrast to the University of Oxford which had in the year 1829 rejected the right honourahle baronet whom he did not then see in his place, in consequence of his having declared himself friendly to civil and religious liberty—( Hear) — and had, during the present year, elected as its chancellor a noble duke whom, he supposed, was the only person they could get to represent their an•iquated opinions.— (Laughter and Hear.) He (Mr. D ) had brought for ward his motion without any wish to excite ill feelings on either side. His object was to relieve the people from the grievances which they justly complained ef, and without which it would be impossible to have peace or tranquillity in the country. There was one obstacle, he feared, to this happy consummation, arising from the indisposition of the clergy to give up any portion of the fees to which they considered themselves entitled. A striking example of this he would mention. An act had passed fur erecting a cemetery at an expense of 40,000/, in the parish of —. The clergyman of the parish, however, had refused to suffer the interment of a corpse in it without payment of the customary fees for burial in the parish. churchyard. He would no further detain ti e house, but would come at once to the resolution which it was his intention to move, namely, " That in the opinion of that louse it was just and expedient that some effectual measures should be k adopted for the entire abolition of the compulsory payment of ch arch rates in England and Wales."—( Hear, hear.) Mr. HALL seconded the motion. Ile was by no means the advocate of a separation between church and state, and from his knowledge of the great body of dissenters residing in the county which he had the honour to represent, he was persuaded that their object was not to bring about that separation, but to obtain the redress of the numerous practical grievances under which they laboured. The in crease of the dissenters was exceedingly rapid. In two parishes in Monmouthshire, 21 new dissenting chapels had within a short period been erected, and no less a sum than 11,000/. was annually raised in those parishes by voluntary contributions on the part of the dissenters. The present question of the church rates was a most important one, and he hoped that the noble lord, if he did not assent to the proposition of his hon. friend, would at least announce the disposition of his Majesty's government to take such measures as might prove satisfactory at once to the great body of dissentere, and to the country generally. Lord ALTHORP begged to state, with respect to the declaration attributed to his noble friend Earl Grey-- namely, that he was as much prepared to support the continuance of church rates as he was prepared to support the continuance of the union of church and state—he was perfectly satisfied, both from his knowledge of the opinions of his noble friend in particular, and from his knowledge of the opinions of his Majesty's government generally, that it was quite impossible that his noble friend could have made such a declaration.—(Hear, hear.) He entirely concurred with the hon. gentleman opposite in the opinion, that the question of church rates rested on very different grounds than the question on tithes. But hoping, as he did, that the motion that he had given notice it was his intention to make would prove generally satisfactory, and as notice of that motion was on the hooks of the house, given by a member of his Majesty's government, not merely in the form of a resolution, but as a proposition for an effective practical measure, he thought the house would allow that it was not desirable, under such cir cumstances, that be (Lord Althorp) should either affirm the principle of the present motion, or meet it with a negative. It was his intention, therefore, to move the previous question upon it. But the existence of church rates was not the only grievance of which the Dissenters complained. Other grievances had been mentioned by the hon. gentleman who had preceded him; a n d h e (Lord Althorp) felt it to be desirable, in the present state of the question, and in the present state of the feeling of the country, that be should not be entirely silent on the subject. (Hear, hear, hear.) The first question agitated by the Dissenters was, that of the payment of church rates ; the second, the forms of marriage ; the third, the establishment of a general registration (the ab sence of which, although inconvenient to all classes, pressed more heavily on the Dissenters than any other); and the fourth, free admission into the Universities. To these he had been reminded by a right hon. friend, that he ought to add the privilege of burying in the church yards of the established religion, without the payment of fees. He would apply himself first to the last mentioned of these subjects. He was sure he need not remind the house how strongly the people of this country felt on all matters con nected with the interment of the dead, and how desirable, therefore, it might be to find, if possible, some other remedy for the grievance of which the Dissenters com plained, than any interference with the church yards be longing to the established church. With respect to the establishment of a general register, lie had already an "Jounced to the house •hat it was the wish of his Majesty's government that some measure of that kind might be practically accomplished. His noble friend, the Paymaster of the Forces, had submitted to his Majesty's government a plan upon the subject; but, after having considered it very attentively, it had appeared to them, that if they made any hurried proposition on the subject, it was so full of difficulties that the probability was, that it would not give satisfaction to the country. Since that period his hon. friend, the member for Southwark, bad given notice of a motion upon the subject of registration. What that motion was, lie (Lord Althorp) knew not; but he should be very glad if his hon. friend could triumph over the various difficulties which beset the question. But although he thought that at present the machinery for car rying into effect such a proposition could not easily be contrived, be nevertheless hoped that when the other great measure which his Majesty's Government had given notice it was their intention to introduce—be meant the mea sure for the regulation of the poor-rates—should be brought forward, it might not be found impracticable to apply the machinery of that measure to the measure of a general registration.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The appoint ment of officers for a general registration alone would be attended with great difficulty, and greater expense ; but if the duties of such officers were annexed to the duties of the officers employed to carry into effect the measure for the regulation of the poor-rates, the object in view might perhaps be desirably accomplished. He could only say, however, that his Majesty's Government would attempt to make some arrangement with respect to that important question, and with every hope that they might be able to succeed. O❑ the subject of dissenters' marriages, his noble friend the Paymaster of the Forces had introduced a bill which, however, did not appear likely to give satisfaction to the parties concerned. He (Lord Althorp) was very much of opinion that this part of the subject could not be satisfactorily arranged, unless the arrangement were founded on some general system of legislation upon the subject; it being difficult suddenly to frame such a system, his Majesty's Government had thought it better to bring forward the measure which had been proposed. The ob jections raised again-,t it had, however, been much greater than could have been anticipated : and if it should be found that those objections could not be obviater', his Ma jesty's Government would, of course, not persevere with the bill.—( Hear, hear, hear.) With respect to the admission of dissenters to the Universities, his honour.. able friend, the mover of the present question, h i d said that he bad just heard that a petition had been signed by a number of the members of the University of Cambridge in favour of their admission. He (Lord Althorp) was happy to say that he had heard the same thing, and also that some of the most eminent names in the University of Cambridge were attached to the petition. —(Hear, hear.) He would at once say, that as far as his opinion went, he could see no objection whatever to the admission of dissenters into the universities. He knew it would be a great relief to the dissenters ; he felt confi dent it would be very advantageous to the universities ; and he was unable to see how it could possibly interfere with the Established Church.—(Hear, hear.) With these opinions, however, and thinking it most desirable that such mea.uses might be adopted as would do justice to the par ties in question, he hoped that the matter would not be pressed too hastily forward, but that sufficient confidence would be placed by the dissenters in the disposition of his Majesty's Government and the house to adopt such mea sures as might, on a deliberate view of the whole case, be considered most advantageous to all parties. With respect to the immediate subject of the abolition of church.rates, he would not enter upon it, as he had given notice of his intention to bring forward a motion respecting it. Mr. WILKS was glad to bear the noble lord state the intention of his Majesty's government, if possible, to in corporate into the system of poor rates, which they were about to propose, an arrangement which might afford the means of effecting a local registration in parishes. After the noble lord had stated that he hoped the measure respecting church rates which it was his intention to pro- pose would prove satisfactory, and that he thought it wou d prove satisfactory, he (Mr. Wilks) did not think that it would be judicious on the part of the dissenters to press forward that question themselves. The period would soon arrive at which the proposition of the noble lord would be opened. It was evident that the question of church rates was with the dissenters a question of principle rather than of money, for the whole sum amounted but to 600,0001., spread over 14,000 parishes. That UM, however, the dissenters ought not to continue to pay, and he had great confidence in his Majesty's ministers that in the measure about to be proposed on the s ubject they would entirely relieve the Protestant dissenters from a charge so unjust. Mr.GOULi3URN alluded to the admission of Dis senters into the universities. He did not know till that evening, that any of the members of the University which he had the honour to represent, had signed a petition for the admission of dissenters into the universities. He bad not seen this petition; and of course Lie could not presume to impugn the vie, s and motives of the petitioners. But this he would say that if the hon. gentleman and the noble lord meant to assert that the university of Cam bridge generally was favourable to the admission of dis senters to the universities, to that assertion he was pre pared to give the most decided contradiction. If that admission were to be forced on the universities, his duty and his feelings would induce him to give it every oppo sition. But if it could be arranged in such a shape as might meet with the concurrence of the universities, he should then consider its merits, and express his opinion accordingly. Sir ROBERT INGI,IS said, was the house prepared to bring the church of England down• from the situation which it at present occupied ? The church rates were opposed by the dissenters only because their existence was a r, cognition of the church by the State. It was not the burden of money, but the burden of this distinction, which the dissenters wished to throw off. With respect to the admission of the dissenters to the universitie. , , lie trusted the noble lord would re-vonsider the opinion which he bad expressed in favour of that admission. As to the petition from the university of Cambridge, it was signed by only a small minority—by not a third of those who were present. The church-rates were taxes not on reli gion, but on property. He would not, however, touch further on that subject at present, but would reserve what he had to say upon it until a future opportunity. Mr. BRISCOE concurred with the noble lord,not only that it was not desirable to press this question to a division but that it was not desirable to occupy the time of the house by discussing it at the present moment. It was much more satisfactory that such a measure should ema nate from his Majesty's government than from any private individual. He was a member of the church of England, but he was quite ready to express his conviction of the impropriety, injustice, and impolicy of requiring those who differed from the doctrines of the church of England to pay the church of England rates. He hoped the mea sures which were in contemplation by his Majesty's go vernment would he satisfactory ; and he was sure that nothing but the complete relief of the dissenters, would prove so. Mr. BAINES could not forget that there was a time when another religion was the established religion of this country, and when the members of the university might object to the admission of Protestants. Those times were past, and he trusted the day would soon come when free admission to the universities would be given to all persons. In his own family there was an instance of the great injustice practised towards those who conscientiously dif fered from the establishment, a member of it after five years' study, having been obliged to forego the benefits of the college to which he belonged, because he could not, consistently with his notions of right, comply with that test, without which he was ineligible to the honours. Now, he thought this was a great hardship on all dis senters. He fully agreed with the bon. member for Bos ton, that the grievance as to church rates was not in the amount, but in the principle ; and he sincerely hoped that the measure to be introduced by the noble lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not fall short of an entire relief from such objectionable imposts. —(Hear, hear.) As to the marriage bill introduced by the noble lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, he must entirely object to it, because it placed dissenters in some certain degree inferior to other persons, by making them do that, in conjunction with others, which they considered, and justly considered, they were entitled to do in their own right. He hoped these things would be altered—that Ministers would so frame their measures that they should have a gracious aspect in the eyes of the country, and prove a real and substantial boon to the dissenters.--(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") No body of mess bad rendered more essential service to his Majesty's Ministers than the dissenters—(Cheers) —no body of men had done so much fur the cause of civil and religious freedom— (Cheers) —no b >dy of men bad such strong claims upon the benefaction of Government and the support of the country as they had.—(Continued cheers.) He would conclude by expressing his opinion, that as the dissenters had ro pay their share of the pur chase money whenever a cemetery was formed, it was not unreasonable in them to require that they should be ; allowed to bury their dead according to the rites of their own church, and not according to one to which they entertained conscientious objections.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SINCLAIR could never support the proposition , of the bon. member for Exeter. Mr. O'CONNELL said this was a plain question, but one involving a great principle—that no one Christian sect should be compelled to maintain another, and be should give his vote so as to forward and strengthen that great principle—the vote being founded on the common. sense view of the matter.—(Hear.) In the Dublin Mil versi,y, Catholics had been enabled to take their degrees for some time past, and the Protestant dissenters had been entitled to do so for some years previously, and yet the students who belonged to the establishment had never been injured, or evoi annoyed by such a practice. Such distinctions were, in his opinion, quite superfluous, and the sooner they were done with the better. Instead of the dissenters living in hope, as they bad been con tented to do so long and so fruitlessly—instead of their relying on others who only played with them—they should pursue a different course, they should take the matter in their own hands; what they "hoped" for from others they should "do" fur themselves ; they should give a long pull, and a strong pull, and a pull altogether, and the matter would be settled as quickly and as quietly as possible.—(Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL was quite as willing as the hon. member for Leeds to give the dissenters their due meed of praise. He certainly had ever found them the friends of civil and religious liberty, and they had ever found his Majesty's ministers, whether in office or out of office, the advocates of their rights, and willing to relieve them from every thing which bore the semblance of grie• vance. They had fought for them on great principles; and even on this, an inferior question, they were anxious for an arrangement which would prove satisfactory. The hon. member for Leeds asserted that the bill, which lie had the honour to introduce, made the dissenters inferior to the members of the church. Now he (Lord John Russell) thought they viewed his bill in an over-jealous spirit, 'for it was never intended, nor was the bill so framed, as at all to make them inferior. Those who in scanced the Quakers, and thought the dissenters could be legislated for on the same grounds as that peculiar but amiable sect, greatly undervalued the real difficulties of the question. At the same time he must say, that in his opinion they would never• arrive at any thing like sound legislation till they established a national registration— (Cheers)—a complete, compu:sory, and civil registration. —(Cheers.) He could assure the hon. member for Exe ter, that as those now composing the government of the country were in early time eager for the concession of the leading claims of the dissenters, so now their wish was not in the least abated, to see them in the full enjoyment of every inferior right to which they were entitled, and he for one should ever promote their cause as long as it was identified with that of civil and religious liberty, always reserving to him,elf the right to maintain that which was attended with so many national benefits—the established church of the realm.—(Hear, hear.) Dr. LUSHINGTON said, it was impossible to suppose the noble lord (Althorp) would be satisfied with proposing to the house merely a diminution in the amount of church rates, for that would be to suppose him utterly ignorant of the feelings of the people in general, and of the Protestant dissenters more.particularly. In his judgment, after what had fallen from the noble lord, the dissenters had nothing to fear on this particular point, for it was well known that his noble friend was not one ignominiously to shrink from his professions.—(Hear.) He knew that the majority of members of that house were favourable to the just claims of the dissenters—(Hear)—and if a cause for doubt should hereafter arise, their votes would soon decide the question ; and he therefore would advise them to wait for the propo sition of the noble lord, satisfied that they would obtain that which they were entitled to—entitled to in the eyes of both God and man. Mr. DIVETT siid, after the declaration of the noble lord (Althorp) he should, with the permission of the house, beg leave to withdraw his motion.—Withdrawn accord ingly. GOVERNMENT OF PARISHES. Colonel EVANS, in asking for leave to bring in a " Bill for the better Government of Pari.bes in England and Wales," said that, considering the taxation of a parish in this county frequently amounted to more than the entire revenue of a secondary state, he thought no objection could be made to any plan which might have a chance of amending the present system. Lord ALTHORP said, that though perhaps it might be better to wait for the general measure which would spring out of the proposed reform of the poor laws, lie should not object to the bringing in of the bill.—Leave given. REPEAL OF THE UNION. Mr. JEPHSON alluded to certain notices which had been given by the hon. and learned member for Dublin, one of which stood, relative to the legislative union of Ireland and England, for the 15th, but had been with drawn, whilst that for the 22d of this month substantially embraced the same question, and still stood on the orders amongst the notices. Now he wished to know whether it was or was not the intention of the hon. and learned mem ber to bring forward the latter on the day for which it was fixed ? Mr. O'CONNELL said if, instead of making the ques tion new put a sort of pretext for making a personal attack on him, the hon. member had in the way of courtesy asked him the question, he should have felt proud to give him out of courtesy an answer; but, put as the question now was, he saw nothing in it which required him to give it particular attention.—( Hear, and a laugh.) CHELTENHAM POST-OFFICE. Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY rose to move for a select committee to inquire into the circumstances under which the sum of Id. was demanded for the delivery of each letter and newspaper within the limits of the town of Cheltenham, and other cities and towns. He should not detain the house at any length in urging it to agree to the granting of the committee which he sought. The charge made he considered unjust, and one that ought to be re moved. He knew not why the Post-office should have sanctioned such an arrangement—why a penny should be asked if individuals desired to send for their letters of the local office. He thought the practice indefensible, and one well worthy the attention of a committee. It the committee were granted, he had no doubt a case would be madc out sufficient for them to recommend the abolition of the impost against which be complained. An Hon. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, seconded the motion. Mr. VERNON SMITH said it was the uniform prac feltthe prac tice of tue house never to investigate questions which should properly come before a legal tribunal of the coon ;advt: try. Other towns were similarly circumstanced with t Cheltenhambey andn advantage a h g e e h o o f n . the m arrangement ge with m ent much aga ingenuity, ns w hich did not overlook them ; they were quite silent, because the house was called upon to interfere. Cheltenham ought to be the last town from which remonstrances on the present subject should come. In 1825, n panny was demanded for the delivery o f eac h l etter, and a few years afterwards it was thought advisable to frame certain re gulations for the expediting of the post; and the conse quences were, that the delivery at present was over by eleven o'clock, which before was wont to extend to three or four o'clock in the afternoon.__( Hear.) Ought Chel tenham, then, to remonstrate?—(Hear, hear.) Lord Mansfield bad said there ought to be limits beyond which, unless specially authorised, no charge could be legally made. Such limits were attended to in the borough in question ; therefore he (Mr. Smith) knew not the reason of the present motion. In commercial towns, it was true, a free delivery might be permitted, inasmuch as trade deserved every attention which could possibly be paid to its interest and convenience. Cheltenham was a place of fashionable resort, where numbers congregated for health and pleasure—where festivity was the order of the day, and where, of course, a slight charge for the prompt delivery of a letter or newspaper could not be a matter of great individual or public importance.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) A committee, such as the hon. gentleman re quired, would saddle the country with a heavy expense, and indeed, in fairness to the gentlemen of Cheltenham, he thought it would not be right to summon them to London to give their evidence. Such a journey might injure their health, by withdrawing them from the scenes of gayety and waters of recovery to which they were so much attached.—(Much laughter.) He doubted the prudence of bringing them up.—(Renewed laughter.) He had before adverted to the trifling charge made upon each letter. Now he (Mr. Smith) knew no place where the prompt delivery of letters and newspapers was more essential than in Cheltenham, nor where they were more required to furnish topics for daily conversation.—(Hear, hear.) He had treated the motion with as much gravity as it could possibly have permitted, and he would now put it to the hon. gentleman whether it was worthy of a statesman's view of the question, to ask a select committee to inquire into such a subject ?--(Hear.) Sir S. WHALLEY would support the motion, and alluded to certain charg es made in London on the delivery of letters, which he said affected himself as well as others, and he hoped the house would concede the committee then sought. Lord WILLIAM LENNOX—If the demand be not legal, it ought to be resisted; if legal, the course the hon. mover should have pursued would have been to have brought in a bill to remove it.—(Cheers.) He must have been aware that many improvements were made, and are making, in the department over which a noble relative of his (Lord William Lennox) presided, and he doubted not every attention would be paid to any arrangements that might be contemplated for the removal of the slightest abuse in the system. The hon. gentleman who had pre ceded him had talked something about limits, but bad not specified those limits. Where were they? An Hox. MEmaEa—No where.—(Laugliter.) Lord WILLIAM LENNOX—No where ! Well, if so, why the complaints they had just heard ? He should not further detain the house, but hoped the hon. gentleman would not press his motion to a division. Lord ALTHORP said a few words, but from the very low tone in which his lordship spoke, it was totally im possible to hear him distincly in the gallery, but as far as we could presume upon his meaning, we understood him to say that he would oppose the motion, as being unneces. sary and uncalled for; and as for the metropolis, it had a most extensive circle, and letters were delivered in so rea sonable a time that there could not be the slightest cause for complaint. Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON would support the motion for inquiry. The impost of one penny was heavily felt in Plymouth, Falmouth, and Stonehouse. An inves tigation was prayed for, and it ought not to be denied. Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY replied, and the gallery was cleared for a division ; but the motion, we understood, was negatived without a division. LOTTERIES. Sir R. INGLIS, in rising to bring forward his motion respecting the Glasgow Lottery, said it was almost unne cessary for him to state the grounds upon which it was founded. He could scarcely believe that any of the mem bers of that house would be parties to the revival of lot teries in this country, and in condemning the system, the noble lord (Althorp) had made use of very strong lan guage, for he said, while advei ting to the Glasgow Lot tery, that the transaction was connected with fraudulent proceedings. In all former cases, where it was proposed to make sale of private procerty by way of lottery, refer ence was made to the existing law, but here there was nothing whatever of the kind. The words of the bill merely were, that its object was making improvements in the line of way from the Cross of Glasgow to the Monteith road. The noble lord (Althorp) did not impute any fraud to the company, the contractors, or agents ; neither (lid he (Sir R. Inglis) yet the transaction itself was fraudulent. All he meant to contend for was that no such lottery as this could be sustained. The parties, therefore who had confederated to obtain this hill were responsible for all the consequences which might result from a measure which the legislature had by law pre vented. But the great object he had in view was not so much to punish the parties for improper conduct as to prevent the recurrence of any similar proceeding. It was no later than within the last week that he bad heard the hon. member for Dublin say that the lottery scheme would be a good mode of raising money for the Dublin Ship Canal, and another hon. member suggested the like mode in the case of the Thames Tunnel. The only apology ever made for lotteries was that they were rendered necessary as a means of raising money for the exigencies of the state ; but he altogether protested against the principle in a case where no benefit was conferred upon the nation in its fiscal elm • racier. In an article which lie had seen in an Irish paper he found that the hon. member for Leominster (Mr. Bish) lamented that the lottery system was abolished. He (Sir R. Inglis) maintained that it was a system which proved most injurious to the morals of the country. He had not called the attention of the house to the Glasgow Lottery till April, 1833. His object was to prevent the system from being taken up in future. At that time he had been strongly appealed to on behalf of the parties who were engaged in the transaction, and a case of ad misericor diam was made out to show that those parties would be utterly ruined by any legislative interference to prevent the plan. lie yielded to the appeal, more particularly as he was told that when the drawing was over the whole plan would cease. A second lottery, however, wasdrawn, and now came a third ; so that the house would see that he did not call for its interference without good and sub stantial grounds. The hon. baronetconcluded by moving that a select committee be appointed to inquire into the origin and present state of a lottery, purporting to be car vied on under the authority of parliame nt, and entitled the Glasgow Lottery, and into any other lotteries, foreign or otherwise, of which, since the legal discontinuance of state lotteries, schemes, tickets or shat e•t, had been circu lated in the United Kingdom. Mr. SINCLAIR seconded the motion, and said that lotteries were regarded in Scotland with the greatest pos sible aversion. thshuiesp supposed gs a ei r id a t c tthehoranti.nhvgeoe gentleman lvvtelaedsmiann implicatedt this i s t q l u e e c s hi t n i ,a o i B ra. though he assured the house - that he h a d no more to do ' hon an d tbhaero agentsnet had o f acquittedany smitvigl‘hihrtt.hpel3osbisSiilblillythfbaenelt , ra t n l s ie 'et c i o ur n . trac T to h r e s, Stil, however, from the speech o f t h e hon. baronet it f t r h a n u n d n u m le p n a t ny t in tention to commit a fraud, but he had not acquitted the oflic.-keepers, and he (Mr. Bish) was one of those keepers. He solemnly declared that he had nothing to do with the bringing in of the bill, or with getting it passed through any of its stages. It received the Royal assent on the Ist July, 1831, and it was only in the February following he hid heard any thing of the Glasgow lottery. He was at Leominster at the time, and could not possibly have been more surprised had he heard that St. Paul's church bad walked to Tower-bill than lie was at hearing of this Glasgow lottery.—(A laugh.) So little had he to appre hend from the motion of the hon. baronet from the very first, that he had given him notice of his intention to second it; but at the same time lie told him that be thought the measure was not called for, and he bad to complain that the hon. baronet had not informed him what course lie intended to pursue, though knowing that be (Mr. Bish) was a member of that house. The hon. baronet, however, did not profess to know that he (Mr. Bish) had been a lottery contractor. Upon this he would only say that lie had spent a great deal of money to no purpose, if the lion. baronet was not aware of a fact which was well known to all the world.—(A laugh.) As a lottery office keeper he had never shrunk from any investigati9n, and he was sure that those who were engaged in the same pursuit with him would be equally ready to meet any inquiry, and he had no doubt that they would come out of it with credit to themselves and the f ggiu" ' country. It was said that this bill ba d bees ' l ' t og• through the house. Now let the house see who tile' ob glers were. The two first on the list we re Mr. "tition and Mr. Archibald Campbell—men of th e highest that!. and character; and the two next were Mr. Dix"' ; s ort right hon. baronet was down at the time member for Glasgow, and Sir Michael Sbaw S The —men equally well known for honour and integr it Y' D i g bt': during the progress of the bill by which the l o ttery t a e io sanctioned, and why did be not take that ° P:rb u aving ' expressing his dissatisfaction with ir, instead into t he skirmish upon the subject every time he came but yet house. He himself was a very humble membe r ' se ou sbi : he was a member of Parliament, and he had _;hostel right to express his sentiments as any, the most tu . _ at t o, tic member there; and he must take leave to rig , I °_,,, to ; hon. baronet (Sir R. Inglis) had forfeited his yet; they him—(Cries of ~ Oh," mingled with laughter) e l _ su lP. hon. bironet had pledged his word to him that b "_. 0 ,4 give him notice when he intended to bring this qU . er oit i 7 : forward, and then when he did bring it forward he ul° Ott give him notice.—(A laugh.) He was of opinion e ‘„ , lotteries had no more to do with morality than he hal r t ~,, do with the Caliph of Bagdad, and that the g overn:P:7 4 . had, by abolishing them, sacrificed four millions wi h!. ; house every extracr se.—C giving four pennyworth of morality. He would refer _.7, a letter from a friend of his, whom be would not d c es . l l.. nate as a moral character, but who svas as respe soak'' a man as any he addressed. This letter contained .11',' general re fl ections on gaming, which, if well found!! o would go to prove that the noble lord (the Chance: , th f a t t h h e Exchequer) opposite was the greatest gatnblecr from a letter containinseveral eke uPe n , t l g rema rks chances of trade and .. Withsome reflections upon • the he ° their uncertainty, b 0 which was A laugh.) The hon. member here res ; a reduction of the inference that, inaslnue.ad the farmers' cro ps upon their bring • cue spared by grubs and insects, his o f s tions must of necessity be more of the natu ,° r depended on the chance of rain, 11- gambling transaction than that of any lottery.offireeekr,ol or stock.broker.—(Loud laughter .) In f a ct ,- con t 7 ,Jli the hon. member, the spirit of speculatio ervad e : it ; . occupations and callings from the highest to the lo"., -64 c` and the lottery-o ffi ce keeper was quite in as fair w,0 3 ' 11 1. get to heaven as any other person. He saw o a r) Iv - 1 for the inquiry proposed by the hon. baronet. Sir R. INGLIS rose in explanation, and obset i. rei t , c that the bon. member for Leominster had accused m i s ," ':. of having violated his word. (The member for e st o p i ster here made some motion, which caused irol,,slitt the occasion referred to by him laughter for some minutes.) Now the bon. Ito. i ought not to have done so, because be had exPr'''„iol frained on into the question of the Glasgow lottery, because /.0 iv' not given the hon. member notice of his intento_ajoi conformity to a voluntary promise on his part. i d l e . .. se' reserved his motion expressly for one of those day s litto which the house was accustomed to go into a Oot a . t he of su'pply, and the particular occasion referred to by ~,,.., hon. member was one when lie merely rose W claim t l i ;l : noble lord's (the Chancellor of the Exc hequer's) at to the subject when he should bring it forward. ~_ 0 / Mr. 13ISH said that the occasion to which he r efs was not that first alluded to by the hon. baronet, b u t eft, in which he had made a speech, as reported in the i tiel of some length, on the Glasgow lottery, withoutlPP him of his intention beforehand. , ; au tlit t Mr. ROEBUCK expressed himself as of aP in e ' s - r •es 0 this patticular lottery was illegal, and that I -06 the general were extremely immoral. He should suPP motion for the Committee of Inquiry. u „, dou bt Mr. WARBURTON said there could be lott ed whatever that the clause by which the Glasgow ley from gebo was justified had been smuggled into anthe G o g e g e g o : l t he provements Bill. He was appointed to salary or emolument—namely, one of the Coo m ",d, 10 for the Exchequer Loan. An application was . 4 " the commissioners for a loan on the security o f „r sea - t r. ill property, to which they could not accede, as s t enten 0 noble lord opposite, from which, however, he der_isvie‘olo:: slid not appear to be su ffi cient. Certain g.OO cordingly then came forward and offered he° . % c oot , was accepted. Mr. Monteith was one of those g i e s : e 10 40; and he therefore stood in the condition of a P a rone reys security in addition, and thiq, being considered a_utieuteor cipally interested in disposing of the Glasgow P. was tl° the valuation upon which the Exchequer los t .00 the vanced ; and as that name was also promine a , ____ r w as t o proceedings repecting the Glasgow bill, t here tu Jr them on every possible opportunity .. additional reason why the matter should be reaso nssi fted f' teries generally, he could only say that bottom. Now had he not stated sufficient .„, 1 0 t , ex twining into the case ?—(Near.) With regar.u_i;d to if be a r „,„,, bring them back again, the very course he w aul i tbel was that adopted in this instsnce, of ba yin g a 1 1; 1 SY / speare, a player, that " All the world's a stage, layers I" hst And all the men and women m erely p . 4 t so the hon. member for Leominster seemed to tng , o ht to /18 as all the world was a lottery, so all the Pe"le Ou; hi e lottery-officekeepers. (A laugh.) Let the h t e o ' t og ever, recollect what havoc these ',Reties used s, ... , h ,,,ir amongst the small means of servants and otberon; of tb; stead of vesting their hard earned "ving' and Oreille/5) banks now established, were tempted to thro and ebeer';s upon the sixteenth of a lottery ticket.--(Bear this ma He certainly should with great satisfaction see . the r oe carefully examined into, and he would su pport s It was said y th e motion for that purpose. ' t ope' J papers relating to this Glasgow lottery Yerc ow cortee r .of he certainly was of opinion that the pera""s ode °t. set ae( in it would not have had recourse to d obtained In tie tf Mr. SPRING RICE had had occasion t n o ar t rov ii, :P ei rid of their property, if they could hove . In fa e , specul a f ished, fu, terms for the repayment of the Exchequer t o h a en bill if Ica; they came forward and o ff ered to grand" the terms, wb affo A r l d r e . Treasury would concede something of ccep tiog' fo r offer the Treasury did not feA warranted ht 11 . bject fan' P t eso' afforded to RinOtelrlelsLteLdYansdaigdrtehe,alyt this was a 00 ,, y. 03- 4 inquiry. Lotteries in general were only B _ ° ,. or s oodi the people, and they were very 6014 t h at a the g°; i e st il motion, as it was certainly, Lord ALTHORP merely rose to say e the P r- to in h i s c pinio u u, a to p to ° l?P_ ° : c ecesta r i.ef , went had not the slightest intention to ascertain whether steps could be taken to p , - here fore , beggio further proceedings in this lottery. ele, v t erruneot wet o f the house to dispel all notion that the o f a corara i° 1 A ke , any way opposed to the ap nt pointme i ., r- inquiry. ct attentiveisr t he Mr. O'CONNELL had rearm theeamber for Ba th ' 0 0 thought, differently from the . to ilet to the law officers of the crown webreeGlasgove lottery-00"J taking any proceedings against te on e for inquirY, ovis merely . keepers. The case vies ter he ea t6o l • for Leomins ter _0 although, had the hon. Mei:Elbe' thought hin3leirrilah of the contractors, he might have _ ~,jr po ol A in complaining if any breach of the contra girlie yet as he had disclaimed all participation it! l ' oe aliti.,o orderlieabo t u o t s s a o c i k ll et their not be injured. All the remarks as to the l' n . ver ed It'd gambling and of lotteries, which had been 011°- : but _,':"( such profusion around him, were perfectlY tr ue i u . Pr o f n a ot the house, in contemning the poor ser/ an : it eigh t 0 ( I, sixteenth share of a lottery ticket , WW I / ' ° „pedios l 4 i the gambling-houses and of the nefarious Pr° — des" i e tioo' to c stock-jobbers, who hid only to concoct oa t p d War , e bloody insurrection or f 6 $0 ; cent, rise or fall upon millions? In fac t ' 9 the P e b ot '. best, the biggest, and most credible lie W A w ords ~, who made his fortune the quickest ; and n a n o . at bey , e these wholesale gamblers bad been uttered i to be : He would support the m otion. e ta ° 'oo t to reply to 10 80 Mr. OSWALD was understood e e ei . 0 , stations of Sir Robert Inglis, irtho . usands in . the stbbarp;3estb:el:va-lehtfos°llrf"oor t' 11 but he was v relative to the passing of the bi , suob h .l perfectly understood. ... a mbling' a - e l Mr. CURTEIS said other modes of b ,0 _ - ' a llowed' , e that carried on at Worse-racing, was _ ro om 0 , therefore, could not ate why these were p ro , ore!„.4 such an outcry raised against lotteries. Parliament "- , and to give sow r_ er y I which the bill had been smuggled throug h P _ t o , not creditable to either house. or rSOX e r 4 ,.. , After a few words from Lord w• coul n3itle motion was agreed to, and the following F. pointed : lionsillYolooel Inglis, Sir R. 11. How*, Lord vi,roo, 'J. p It Pcel, Sir F rem antle, Sir T. 8 .00 ,0, e ' f . W. Althorp, Viscount Grey, Sir G. Glails t l Goulburn, H. Finch, G. Shav i ' Rt. 1-I°P. Rice, T. S. Oswald, J. j o-eY, sir W. Herries, J. C. Nicholl, J. flO re ' C. Ridley, Sir M. W. Ord, W. PciVs' ton, ft Bish, T. Sinclair, G. War h bu j Somerset, Lord G. Ewing, . 0 Was, • Baring, A. Willoughby, si r . P e Lincoln, Lord did ° et ° • e ° l ' 4° Sir ROBERT INGLIS said h e b e coulai ltte k cifrhg the name of Mr. Bish on the list of t" hut as t" e b or ground that be bad been a contractor ; 'L o , be t, , mittee might require his assistance as o not o lde°,,, 1 4 it would be better that his name should notr ae d ltil After a few words from Mr. Ctlos e e t itt ,e, b ill SCROPE, Mr. Bish was added to the c0r0....5. . _ WEIGHTS AND MEASUBirLAug is je Lord EBRINGTON moved for leave to.Tof bring he to amend and render more effectual two A.` o , 0 01 1° .. !WO ola of his late Majesty Geo. IV., for estau a A 0 as . lot" tiefr in weights and measures. tilde 00 Mr. WARBURTON thought the n , _ a d extend the provisions of his bill to lb e terta 0 bject to laceo F~