The Sun. — London, England, 1827-02-16 00:00:00

.he • coliceiveti, be carried too far, for recent events had showh, that. emigrants ef that , description had been very successfdl in Upper O* soda. There was, indeed, a peculiar dis tinction between the agricultural and manufactuiing population in one respect, that it became extremely difficult, from the na twa of_the employment of the manufacturer', and from its fre quent variations, to say whether there was at any particular time a redundancy in any branch of trade. They had seen thousands out of employment to-day receiving high wages and in full work on the morrow; and in such sudden changes and ebullitions it became extremely bard to say at what time, or to what extent, any branch was to be relieved. In his opinion, the only method of ascertaining the state of a population under such circumstances, was by the rate of wages; and he would say, that if the wages of any man were sufficient in a time of what was called prosperity. to support himself and his family, it would he too much for that House to say that there was any redundancy of hands in that branch of manufactures. It followed, therefore, on the contrary, that if the wages of labour were invariably and for a long period insufficient to the maintenance of a man in employment, there must bee redundancy of hands in that employment, which ought to be reduced. He supposed that none would deny, that what governed commodities of trade themselves might be said to go vern those who produced them ; and that when the supply be came greater than any possible demand could consume, the market must be cleared of that superabundant produce before a fair remunerating price can be had for the remainder. If, therefore, the market could by any means, such as emigra tion affords, be cleared of those hands which were at the pre sent. moment superabundant, it followed that the remainder would find the wages of labour increased to such an amount as would afford them an adequate remuneration. To take the parish of Blackburn, in Lancashire, for example. In the year 1814, the average price for weaving was nine shillings and sixpence for each piece, of which there were then 27,000 made in a week, and the produce to the weavers was 12,095/. In the year 1826, the ave rage price of weaving a piece of the very same description, was ls. 9d. Was not that, he would ask, a state of things which re quired remedy? and did it not show that something more was re quisite than a mere increase of demand? These persons had peti tioned the House in terms of the bitterest feelings of distress and despondency ; but he would vesture to say, that they had ascribed their misfortunes to things which had no conceivable reference to their present condition. The great cause of their misfortune arose from the state of the Poor Laws, and the system which had been introduced under them, of obtaining a legal settlement, The pre sent method of employing power-looms and machinery had been introduced into that particular trade upwards of ten years ago; and yet, in defiance of that fact, and in ignorance of the real cause, they persisted in asserting that their• situation was produced from the employment of machinery, and that they would be. relieved by its destruction. He would ask, was it not of some importance that they should be made to under stand, through the investigation and inquiries of a Commit tee,s what was the real cause—that they should he made to appreciate the consequences of the superabundant hands intro duced from Ireland and other places, and he made to com prehend that theip causes had no reference to the effects ? Sup pose that the machinery in- a parish was destroyed, why the manufacturer would erect new machinery in another, and the means of employment in the parish from whence he removed he altogether taken away, without, in the slightest degree, diminishing the production of which they complained. In Manchester, there was a population of 120,000 persons, and vet there were at the present moment 3590 families, making upwards of 14,000 persons, altogether destitute of employment. If there was a hope that all the present distress would be re moved, and the cloud which at present hung over their pros pects would clear away—if it was possible to find any other method of permanently employing their families, and leaving the supply equal to the demand, then God forbid that he should be 1. he first to recommend emigration from this country to any other; but if the question rested upon the point of whether the distress was temporary or permanent, he feared there was very little chance of any relief by employment, so as to place those who were now suffering beyond the reach of distress. would be- unnecessary for hid; to say that the introduction of machinetymust, under every circumstance, be considered a most desirable object; but it was for the House to judge how far that machinery had contributed to the present distress. One thing was certain,- that the productions by the means of machinery had be come great enough to prevent any fear of a rise in the price of any commodity by the withdrawing of workmen through the means of emigration. - The Honourable Member then went into an expla nation of the details, as shown from the labours of the last Com- nattite, stated the maximum cost of the transport of every igdividual Cans4s, to be about 201. Many of them, indeed jt, itid there been fort4nate; and there was the beet ground for believing ti4t the condition of repaying the advances made to them by Government could not, under any circumstances, be considered hardship. He Was cal aware that the subject of emigration, c, , 4,rmected with the manufacturing districts, required ainch fur ther exculination, and he did not pretend to deny that it might not lead to 4 consideration of the whole state of the Poor Laws— * subject on whieb, more had been said than any thing he had 'fated. This only he would venture to declare, that unless they f a i dy wt , t h e ev il, an d applied some real and substantive remedy; the demands ttutjer those Laws wonl4 soon absorb the whole rental ,e 4' capital of the country. To that subject the Committee would apply ;liernselves, and if they, or any others, could suggest any other or tittter expedient than.emigration, he would most gladly „imbrace it; altlsough he bad ria hesitation in saying, and after the most mature opusideration, that it was his deliberate conviction no better remedy could be found. The Honourable Member, after eulogising the Committee of last year, and declaring that the re sult of their labours showed the propriety of the plan he recom mended, concluded by proposing that a Committee be appointed to consider the subject of Emigration from the 'United Kingdom. Mr. JAMES GRATTAN was decidedly of opi nion that the Committee: recommended by the Hon. Gentleman would lead the public astray. The intention of the lion. Mem ber was, he had no doubt ; very good ; but Emigration was his hobby, and if carried to the extent he recommended, could nit be justified. He began, indeed, rather in an Irish way to carry his intentions into effect; for after having spent some 20,0001. in sending emigrants to Canada, he now came to the iruse requiring a Committee to inquire whether emigration would fie proper—(Hear, hear.)—Nothing, in his opinion, could :.;e more .uniqstitiable, in the present state of the finances, than ; to come to the Howo of Commons, requiring it to advance 201. 47-head-,--for such waa the minimum—to transport people to eanida. If they wished, fait was said, to make the people com foitthle, let them apply the saw sum to make them-comfort able at. hnuag, and they would find their efforts much more be neficial. The number of Irish who came to England was, he ,amitted, A - TtrY great hardship upon the augl,4 to recollect What had - b een u y people;b.lr but they Mr. Hodges, teat, a.s t o n g as the 'lrish - couhl live in hovels, or li e i n lanes, sir ,;.itches, while the English labourer or manufacturer required tc well lodged end well fed—Lio long even the encouragement to emigration could 4ot save the English from the effect of their i:oropetition. They ought to rieform the systetii; they ought to compel the Irish landlords to adopt means for the improvement of the condition of their tenantry, and give the people employment at home. The flon,urable Gentleman bad talked a good deal of the employment of capital, and of a superabundant population; but did'tie recollect 'what Mr. Nimmo said (not an Irishman, but a Scotch Man, end it' 'Very; intelligent gentleman)? He declared _ . that he had gone over Ireland repeatedly, and that he was con vinced there must be something wrong, with which they were not as he had frequently seen land let it fivo po u nds an yet acquainted, cre, without any icarrity of work, or any disturbance. The :Honourable Member concluded by moving, as an Amendment, e` That•the state of distress existing in this country at present, and she stilt greater distress which has existed for so many years in Ireland,- require • some more immediate and permanent remedy, than that ;which could be expected to result from the re-appoint. meat at a Committee on Emigration." Mr- 1 40 MBE rose to second the amendment, but Was scarcelraolibl e i n the gallery during the greater part of his speech. We undeistood him to say, that if the honourable gen tleman opposite wtadd;come down to that house with a fair and honest scheme atelatiisalion, he should have his . cordial support; but this. wail a mereaelatilon." As to Ireland, there was but one course to .be. parstaiL...ogn wh , emancipation must be granted. it was said_ that the lifts ". °Me present distresses of that country Was "viag to want ' fst hlklattit e and that there was no capital to furnish that employment. Why was there no capital? Because of the disturbances which existed there, and which would prevent any capitalist in his senses from risking Lk in the p t coun try. Remove the disabilities under which the Catholics laboured, and these disturbance would cease. He spoke, the sentiments of every honest Irish Man when he said that,if . th; e " , disabilities were removed the people of Ireland would beco me PO and peaceful subjects, and that the English capitalist might themeettle there perfect security. This would certainly be, the result; and if i t were brought about , the Hon. Gentleman opposAte Weald, in all probability,, come down to the House and ask how pe o pl e were to be made to meet the exigencies of the capitalists. He trusted that the great question of Catholic emancipation would pass that House in i few - dais ; and if it were not, he hoped that he should Eve to see the day when the people of Ireland would come in a body to the doors of that House, and snatch by constitutional means those privileges which they had co long prayed for in vain. Colonel ToRR ENS rose to offer his sentiments upon the question before the. House, and to answer the objections of the two Hon. Members who had preceded him. They had laboured. to show that the proposed measure of emigration was a bad one ; but he had to assure those Honourable Gentlemen, that the arguments which they had used, and the facts which they had stated, were calculated rather to confirm the opinion that emigration was the only mode by which the present dist resses could be reliev e d. Th e - Hon Member for Wicklow had said that Irish labourers, pressed by the distresses of their own country, came over to this, from whenae they were sent back again to Ireland; now he (Colonel Torrens) would ask whether it would not be better to remove and provide for them permanently, than to have them sent backwards and forwards from this country to Ireland like so many shuttlecocks, as was now the case, and that to without their condition being at all bettered ? The other Hon, Gentleman had talked about a portion of the capital of this country being transferred to Ireland. Now, the very passing of this capital to Ireland, and fixing it upon the soil there, would immediately throw a large portion of the population of Ireland out of employ, and the redundancy of the population would still exist. It was not the want of capital that caused the distresses of Ireland ; it was the fact of her territory being too small to support her population, and thus it was that the redun dancy of population met them at the very threshold of the argument, and was the evil to which a remedy must be first applied. This important question must be tried by its own merits. In Ireland there was 4 redundancy of population, and the Hon. Gentleman under the gallery had proposed to remedy this evil by increasing the capital of that country. Now, he would inform that Hon. Gentleman, that where there were not fertile lands on which capital could be applied, it might happen, that in one and the same country both capital and labour might be redundant. Tie need not remind any Hon. Gentleman who was conversant with these matters, that when double capital was applied to land, it would not always give a double result. There was a point at which, after repeated applications of capital to a farm, any succeeding application of capital could not he success fully made, any more than it would be successful in the result to apply large portions of capital, to lands of a certain degree of want of fertility. The state of the question was this. England had a redundant capital, and a redundant population; Ireland had a redundant population, and in the colonies land was redundant. Emigration, therefore, was merely the application of the redun dant capital and population of the United Kingdom to the redundant land of the colonies. This would be to increase the national wealth, and he would contend that it was the only means of putting down our poor laws, which were a Spencean system, that would, if persevered in, break down aristocratical distinctions, and reduce every state to the same level of misery.—(Cheers.)—With respect tc Ireland, he wished as heartily as any man, to see all disabilities removed, and to see that country one with this, and governed by the same laws ; but he must say, that he thought it a little too much for the Hon. Member (Mr. Lomhe) to mix tip the question of Catholic emancipation with that of emigration, and he would venture to say, that if Catholic emancipation were granted to morrow, it would not relieve in the slightest degree the distresses of Ireland. He would add one word about the expense of cann ing this projected emigration into effect. Great stress had been laid upon this.; and some Hon. Gentlemen appeared to think that the greatness of the expense would be fatal to the project ; lie, however, was of opinion, that the expense of sending out a million of people to Canada would be well repaid. They would occupy 20,000,000 acres of the best land which Government could give them, and if capital were supplied theni, these acres would in a few years be worth 1/. an acre, and . could they not then afford to pay .a shilling a year rent ? Honourable Members looked at Canada as she now was, and not as she would be, in the case of this emigration. They forgot that the benefits of this measure would not be confined simply to agriculture. He was convinced that this measure was founded upon the best principles of political economy; it was collecting the scattered elements of wealth, and applying them successfully ; it was enabling them to remedy the distresses of Ireland, and to get rid of the poor laws ; and it would spread the British name, the British laws, and the British religion throughout all climes of the world. Mr. BRIGHT, although not prepared to agree entirely with the Hon. Members who had preceded him, yet did not think that the measure proposed was calculated to succeed. He denied that the proper mode in which the emigration ought to be conducted was pointed out by the report, although convinced of the benefit which must be derived from emigration wisely regu lated. The Hon. Member proceeded to comment upon the evi dence contained in the report, from which he contended it ap • peared, that the results stated could not be accomplished. The experiment of emigration from Ireland, as far as it had been tried upon a different system, had answered. He approved of the grant of a sum of the public money for the settlement of persons in Canada ; but in order to the immediate success of that measure, the country ought to be properly surveyed and mapped. To ac complish this object, he should gladly support the expenditure of 40,0001 or 50,0001., and he thought it would be a meanness un worthy of this country, and of the object to which it was to be ap plied, to object to a grant which, if well laid out, must in the end prove highly beneficial as well to the nation, as to the persons for whose relief it was immediately intended. He objected, however, to the fantastical modes in which it was intended to carry the pro posed measure into effect, by prohibiting the building of cottages, because it was proved that as soon as the poor who had inhabited them were removed, others would he found to supply their places. The effect of this would be to introduce a sort of new poor law into Ireland. He had hitherto heard that it was a blessing to Ireland that they had no poor laws. He had never felt nor be lieved that it was so ; but whatever might be its advantages, they would be destroyed by the proposed measure. He referred to the state of the Irish colonies, as a proof of the value of the boon which a well-regulated system o 4 f emigration would prove to the population of Ireland and Scotland. Mr. -BROWNLOW rejoiced that in all the ob servations which had been addressed to the Home by Hon. Gen tlemen who opposed the measure, their objection had been con fined wholly to the details, the principle of the system remained untouched. It was clear that the means of the country were not only disproportioned to the population, but that the population had become vastly redundant, as measured with the means of em ployment. He believed he might say that two-thirds of the people of Ireland were unemployed. The Hon. Member for Bristol had objected to the details of the measure, although lie had azreed must fully in its importance. It was said that the plan proposed was a crotchet of the Hon. Secretary ; that as every roan had his hobby, this was that which the lion. Secretary chose to ride; anal yet it could not he denied that the evidence and the reports were va7uable and authentic. These, however, might be dispensed with, and yet there would remain enough to make out a very strong case as to the superabundance of the population in Ireland. He alluded particularly to the evidence given before the Irish Corn mates by Major Wilcox, who stated, that in the county of Lime rick there was a great superabundance of population, owing to the people living together in cottages in great numbers, and having a scanty means of subsistence from the few acres, of land which were attached to them : to that of Mr. Dunn, who said that in the Queen's County there was so great a want of employment, that not more than one person in six had sufficient work ; while from 4d. to sd, a day was the average rate of payment to labourers; and to that of the Knight of Kerry, who said that the poor people in his neighbourhood were glad to go a long way from their homes to procure employ ment, by which they earned no more than twopence a day. He believed that, as a general position, these facts might be somewhat overstated ; but he knew that starvation existed to a great extent in Ireland. It was one of the results of this state of things that had caused so extensive art emigration to Scotland, the greater part of the west was peopled by Irishmen. But it was not to Scotland alone that the evil effects of the redundancy of the popu lation in Ireland extended themselves. None of the steam-packets came from Ireland to Liverpool, without bringing some of the people of the former country, who could now procure a passage for 41. or sd. per head. The consequence must be, that the same results must he experienced here as in Ireland; labourers would be to be had for 4d. or sd. is-day, and riot only the labouring peo ple would be reduced to a privation similar to that which was felt in Ireland, but the moral feelings and the people's ways of thinking and acting would be reduced to that standard which he was ashamed to admit existed in Ireland. The evil would then be, and thie would be at no distant period, felt and complained of in England, as it was already felt and complained of in Scotland. What then must be done with it? Hon. Gentlemen said, do nothing, and it will cure itself. What ! let famine and pestilence do their work ? Leave such a state of things alone, and leave the wretched people who suffered under it to die by starvation or disease ! Anti this because it was thought the evil would cure itself; that in a few years improvident marriages would cease, and all would be well again. But what was the fact ? The population of Ireland had doubled within the last 20 years, arid was still increasing. This reasoning was altogether false—false distress Ireland, tra lesis)elicongregated together gd b rte e oug e , a a aat u nne s tdy country, e, an,,ier esunkfalseaaspa edrpiiptioltrioi, as i it was opposedfor when t ofa p r. e t e ;) oi le r they became desperate and reckless of all conseq uences. The evidence, too, of Dr. Doyle, stated that the people together for the purpose of keeping up the . animal beat in the inclement season, and by this means also the popu lation was increased. There was then no alternative but emigra tion. He was asked what security he could offer to the House, that, when even this had been adopted, to whatever extent, the country would not still be in the situation of the 50 daughters of an uufortumate gentleman who were doomed to till tuba from which the water escaped as fast as they poured it into them, and that although they might be always changing, they would never lower the level of the population. The security which he had to offer was, that which had arisen from the experience of the Irish landholders, and which had taught them to adopt a different me thod of letting their farms. They had found out, that to con solidate their estates was better than to subdivide them.— Many landlords in Ireland had anxiously endeavoured to bet ter the condition of their tenantry by allotting their farms on more advantageous terms than formerly, but, with the best intentions, they had failed to effect their object. It was found necessary, therefore, to introduce into Ireland, a new law, called the law of landlord and, tenant, which was now working its progress, but without any beneficial results. He (Mr. Brownlew) knew at this moment, of a gentleman who possessed an estate of 6,000 acres, 4,000 of which were unprofitable hog. On the remaining 2,000 acres there were up wards of 3,000 unhappy peasants settled, whose means of living were as scanty as the space which they occupied was confined.— (Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Member for Wicklow said, leave the Irish peasants where they are, but what was to become of their still increasing families? How were they to be provided for ? How, (said the Hon. Member) but by consolidating farms, and abandon ing that ruinous system of subdivision which had too long brought misery and distress upon the country. But the. House should look to the situation of the unfortunate Irish peasants, if that plan were followed. Driven front their native haunts, they would soon be dispersed through the country, seeking for employment without food or shelter. • Was it not, therefore, the bounden duty of the Legislature to prevent that unnatural, that frightful stream of want, misery, and pauperism from flowing over to this country from unfortunate Ireland, and thus arresting the progress of disease and death in all their dreadful malignity 2—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT explained. Mr. BARING observed, that if particular indivi duals in that house, anti the country generally, seemed to evince a lukewarmness towards the subject now under discussion, he was quite sure that it did not arise from not feeling sufficiently the importance of the subject of emigration ; but that doubts, very serious doubts, had arisen as to the practicability of carrying into effect the views of those by whom the measure of emigration was so ably and warmly advocated, some contending that the plan proposed would prove ineffectual; while others grounded their objections on the expence it would cost the country. Indeed, all gentlemen seemed to be agreed on the latter point ; but when an Hon. Member stated to the House that the settlers at Canada were scarcely better provided with the comforts and necessaries of life than the Irish peasants, he (Mr. Baring) mast give his dis sent to that observation. The Honourable Member alluded to explained. Mr. BARING resumed. From personal observa tion he could state that the condition of the settlers at Canada, com pared with that of the Irish peasants, formed a striking contrast ; for a more prosperous, healthy, and contented race of persons than the former could no where exist. An honourable gentleman had said, that the settlers in Canada, after toiling for some years, were only able to clear about fifteen or twenty acres of ground for their own use ; but even inch a process, attended as it was with very considerable difficulties, must, of necessity, be the work of time, and when the land was once fit for the purpose of agriculture, it was surprising to witness the fertility with which it grew crops of wheat and other produce. Our colonies in that part of the world were producing a race of thriving, rational and contented beings ; and looking to Ireland, we found in her pea santry the exact reverse. Would it not, therefore, be an act of the greatest humanity to devise some means of relief for the unfor tunate peasantry of Ireland ? What the means were by which an object so desirable could be effectually accomplished, was ano ther consideration ; and although there might be differences of opinson as to the extent to which relief should be afforded, still it was quite clear that whatever _plan should be finally adopted, and however limited that plan might be, it could not fail of doing good. The Honourable Secretary (Mr. Horton) had, as he un derstood, brought forward the present motion with a view not only to learn the feelings of the house upon it, but also to ascer tain how far the country at large was interested in the discussion. The first question which naturally arose was this—whether we could open a sufficient vein for the purpose of emigration, and how far the opening of that vein would be consistent with the resources of the nation. The greatest advantage that any country could enjoy, was to be able to spread its population. It was that power of spreading her people over a vast extent of country that gave to Russia a great superiority over other countries; and the conse quence was, that in no part of Europe there existed less of phy sical distress. To the United States of America the same obser vation might be applied. The people of this country subscribed large sums to alleviate the distresses of Ireland when her unfortu nate population were sinking from want. But the sums collected on those occasions only deferred the evil day, and afforded no ulti mate relief. He was satisfied, however, that if some proposition were suggested that would be likely to extend permanent relief, that the people of England would again come forward and lend their aid in promoting so humane a cause. The Hon. Secretary (Mr. Horton) had suggested a plan of raising money by the parishes, but it was his (Mr. Baring's) opinion, that such a measure could never be carried into effect with the least probability of suc cess. He had made himself some experiments, and the result proved that it would be very difficult to obtain from the parishes the necessary funds ; anti supposing that plan were adopted, and that 400,000 or 500,000 persons were sent out of the country at different periods of time, would any Honourable Member ad vise such a method of paying off debts ? He repeated, that the experiment would be dangerous in Canada; and with all his re spect for the Honourable Mover, of whose zeal in the cause of hu manity there could be no question (Hear, hear), he must beg leave to differ from him with respect to this part of the measure. Gentlemen who knew any thing of parish rates, and the way in which they were in general collected, must see that the proposi tion o( the Honourable Secretary, respecting the raising of money by annuities, must fail, and they must feel the utter impossibility of effecting such a measure with the smallest prospect of success. lie begged the particular attention to the subject now before the House of the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for the Home Department. He hoped lie would look into the question, and he was sure that the Right Honourable Gentleman would find it less repulsive than lie seemed to consider it. The Honourable Gentleman then alluded to the Acts by which captains of ships were restricted from conveying passengers from the United King. dom, without complying with certain regulations regarding food &c., and seemed to infer that those Acts might operate agains emigration. Mr. HORTON observed that the restrictions to which the Hon. Member alluded were removed. Mr. BARING in continuation observed, that if something like a bounty were given to captains of ships convey. ing emigrants, it might operate as a stimulus to their exertions to promote the comfort and- convenience of those whom they con veyed. Some suitable preparations should also be made to pro vide for the reception of the emigrants on arriving at their desti nation ; care should also be taken that they should be sent with all convenient facility to whatever settlement they were intended for, otherwise a great deal of inconvenience might arise. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by observing, that the country was very much indebted to the zeal and talents displayed by the Hon. Secretary fur the Colonies, who brought forward the present mo tion.--(Hear, hear!) lAtivrithßarrei Mr. PEEL felt anxious, in consequence of the pe mad rso e n t a o l h re im fe , re t n o ce ewxphliaclint th:islvioien;_sGanendtlfe.emelianngs( the important subject which was now before the House,snpge)c t had o and he hoped his Hon. Friend, the Colonial Secretor would do him the justice to say whethe r lie (Mr. Peel) had not always taken a warm and lively interest in the • piesent question, whatever the Hon. Gentleman wliu last addressed the House inferred to the contrary._ Mr. BARING said something in explanation. Mr. PEEL-resumed. If he had taken rather a me diumiview of the question, if he bad not advocated it in a way that its supporters might have wished, he hoped that he should not, therefore, be accused of displayin g coldness to wards the question. His Hon. Friend who had introduced the measure to-night, knew that he had frequently and anxiously consulted with hint on the subject of emigration. In the view which he (Mr. Peel) had taken of the question, it struck him forcibly that it was essential to success not to proceed at first on a scale of emigration too extensive and magnificent, but rather to proceed by a rational an d quiet mode to e ff ect the object in view. —(Hear !)—That there were facilities for carrying the plans proposed into execution none could deny. His Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department, his Hon. Friend who brought forward the present motion, and himself had repeated in terviews on the subject, the result of which was, that a gentle man, a Mr. Cockburn, whose zeal and talents were unquestion able, had gone out to Nora Scotia and elsewhere, for the purpose of personally observing how f ar th e p r oposed plans of emi grat i on were likely to succeed. H e had instruct i ons t o ex t en d hi s inqui ries to various subject s connected with t h e agr i cu l tura l prospects of those places which he was.to visit, and' he was to make obser vations respecting the equality of the dit.Terent lands pointed out for settlers.--(Hear, hear !)-I.lis Honourable Friend (Mr. W. Horton) proposed no plan at present. He merely threw out sug gestions for the consideration of the House, and what was the amo un t o f th e objections raised by the Hon. Member for Wick low? (M r . Grattan.) Why, that the House should abatalQa the plan proposed by his Honourable Friend, because it did not go far enough for his purpose; but if the suggestion of the Honourable Gentleman were to be acted upon, the House might, in despair, abandon, in utter hopelessness, every plan that would be at all likely to alleviate that deep-seated dis_ tress which could never be sufficiently deplored. He was of opinion that a rational system of emigration would lead to effects the most beneficial to the country, by affording facilities to its im poverished inhabitants of bettering their condition. And it was idle to deny but we must expect a redundancy of hands, in a coun try where the mechanical arts were carried to such perfection. The effect of the recent improvements in mechanics was to throw upon the country a vast number of men who bad hitherto support ed themselves by labour. Such, for instance, had been the effect of the discovery of the astonishing power of the loom. It threw out of employment hundreds of thousands. If, therefore, we were to go on improving mechanics as we had heretofore done, our working population must be thrown out of employment according as new inventions sprang up to supersede the labour of man. Would it not, therefore, be an object the most to be desired, that some efficient plan should be adopted by which those poor unemployed persons might be rescued from wretched ness, and raised to a race of happy and contented beings ? (Cries cf " Hear, hear, hear." )._.:.He was not prepared to pro. nounce an opinion on the particular suggestions which had that evening been referred to—he meant that relating to the inquiry how far it might be practicable for the parishes, whose poor-rates would be diminished by the removal of the labourers chargeable upon them, to remunerate Government for the expense which it must incur in their removal, and that relating to the inquiry how far it would be expedient to re quire from the emigrants some remuneration for the parishes in the shape of a quit-rent. He thought that those suggestions deserved the deepest consideration before they were adopted, and whe ther they were practicable or not, nothing but good could result from inquiring into them. It appeared to him desirable, that the first experiment in emigration should be made with men of fair character and industrious habits. He thought that the suggestion of requiring from the emigrant a certain sum as a quit -rent, was deserving of consideration. Whether it might not fetter his energies to have the prospect of re-payment conti nually before his eyes, and whether such a prospect might not be a temptation to him to quit his farm, after he had exhausted it, were points which he considered as well worthy examination. He conceived, however, that if the plan answered, the Government might be amply repaid without a quit-rent. A quantity of 'land might be reserved to Government in the midst of that allotted to the emigrants. He had merely risen to state the qualifications with which he approved the plan of his Hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary ; and he trusted that what he had said would not lead any person to suppose that-he was lukewarm in the support of a plan which he verily believed to be of paramount importance. Mr. HUME then addressed the House amid con siderable confusion, occasioned by the number of Members who left the House, and the loud conversation of many of those who remained. He contended, that to employ 20,000,000/. in car rying to a foreign country one out of every 18 members of our population, was a wasteful employment of the public capital, inas much as the void occasioned by suck& measure would be made up in three years. In proof of that position, he read a long extract from the evidence attached to the Report on Emigration ; from which it appeared that the void which had been occasioned in the population of the village of Marsden, in Kent, by the emigration of 52 of its inhabitants,—which was one in eight,—had been immediately made up by the arrival of fresh labourers from other places. He likewise argued, from the evidence of Lieutenant- Colonel Cockburn, that at the end of seven years from their first settlement, the emigrants would by no means he able to repay to Government, or their parishes, the expenses of their emigration. The practical result of this project for emigration might, in his opi nion, be expressed in a very few words--it would be to send away beggars from England to make beggars of those who remained in it behind them ; for what other result could follow from sending 20,000,000/.out of thecountry, which if it were left in the country, must be expended in some way or other among the working classes ? From every information which he had been able to obtain, he was convinced that this project of emigration would both imme diately and ultimately be a losing concern to the country. It had been said, however, that it would lead to increased prosperity. Now, if 20,(700,000/. were to be divided in this country among the persons whom it was destined to take from it, it would pro duce to them an annual annuity of 15/. a year, (a laugh), and would keep them in happiness here. Besides, the evils of Ire land could not be cured by emigration. The system which pre vailed in that country was bad, and required a stronger cure than that of emigration. If the House wished emigration to be pro ductive of any good effect, they must repeal the absurd restric tions which they had placed upon it. At present, no emigrants could go direct to the United States. They must proceed thither by way of Canada, a regulation which imposed an additional ex pence of 10/. upon every person emigrating. The restrictions however, were as useless in point of practice, as they were absurd in point of theory. Whilst he made these objections to the plans now proposed, he thought it right to state, that he was anxious to promote emigration upon proper principles, and to add that the sentiments expressed by the Hon. mover and seconder of the amendment were such as the House ought to follow. Mr. W. NORTON, in reply, said, that it could only he ascertained by minute inquiries whether emigration on a large scale was advisable ; and it was with a view of making those minute inquiries that he recommended the appointment of the present Committee. An Hon. Member opposite hail told him on a former occasion, that he was not proceeding in this subject upon sonnd principles of political economy. Would the Hon. Gentle.. man give him credit in future for sound principles when he told him a t t h t a en t thioentdadiarat lie had questionswnup,3Osbniittd them e uponem o this subject one bjectw t i o th and care M'Culloch—and that Mr. M'Culloch had answered them, in a manlier perfectly agreeing with the view which he (Mr. W. Hor o fh t: ei n rl e ) ,l .a n d a d slaf p i At e ht v he i previously l ot y ine .teaxkpeen Membermf e t them nuilnd emigrationt a e t fer House ? to pil: a2d A e9 n oi E H lof o l n st . h2 ll 3e I evi dence, ni deuce, he would Bud there an elaborate detail of the success of that plan, from which it would appear that the property of 120 of the settlers who then emigrated was now valued at 7,000/. on a very low t: a ii ss i e b s rt s : i,nnaaet information particular l t al desirable,i rat instance,there n a -a n s tdh l i afi t t) t r l e e truth iagrarn e i ta i s l s ot t on h the CanadalodSetrtit perse vere atn- bast proceeded a f o r i o .fi e n g i t a l w li i:; onrodt country ns f.ro from the United States. He thought Ir. BRIGHT, the amend ment:e-f4lrilfnt-I%eahrs,iisl Wilmot negatived 9 n w , without Secretary ee t l h , e s o i r r ig T in h a o l m r: was g Hri Committeerr rt.Baring, DKaeievtviaitlrhi wDavis, %;rs. Douglas,appointed Torr e n.Bl, r .5 : io Wood, Brown low, 3 ca rr r . rie s d p , r a in n g d t ß he ie f e o , llo A w ir in . Ir. Leslie Fost so e t r Ai Lord, ocnia nd' Lni F aea i b ° a id : u c Li ‘ i e s ecr. L e.. ri eseLv: Leader s ilal o dit n rer.r. Gower, Lord Moberly, Alexander Denison, s c r n . t Stanley,i I ot• p e h s , r M . Henry MauricepPar nell, r Fitz Gerald, Sir James Graham, Mr. Stuart Wortley, Mr. Frank low, Mr. Francis Baring. COSTS ON PRIVATE BILL APPEALS. Mr. LITTLETON said, that the machinery of the resolutions which he had formerly introduced, relative to appeals on Private Bills, would be incomplete, if the House did not sanc tion an additional resolution, subjecting the party appealing to the payment of all costs and expences, in case the Committee of Appeal declared the petition to be frivolous and vexatious. It was necessary that the House should do this with as little delay as possible, because he knew. that one report at least was about to be presented, relative to which it was probable there would be an appeal. He had, sometime since, proposed two measures for the purpose of carrying his object into effect. One was to compel the petitioner or petitioners to enter into recognizances to defray costs as might have been incurred before:;the Committee, in case the appeal should be considered frivolous and vexatious. Some gentlemen, however, especially of the learned profes sion, objected to this, on the ground that there existed no precedent, where one branch of the Legislature assumed the power of taking money from individuals. In all cases of that nature, it was observed, it must he the concurrent act of the three Estates. He next proposed, that the party or parties appealing should deposit a certain sum of money to meet the expenses incurred, if the appeal were deemed fri volous and vexatious. Against that, however, it was objected that where the parties were poor, the call for a deposit of money would effectually prevent the appeal, be the grounds of it ever so just. He had, therefore, in the interval since the former resolutions were carried, endeavoured to collect the opinions of the gentlemen (especially of the legal profession) who had ob jected to these two propositions ; and he had now the concurrence of all those legal authorities in the propriety of the resolution he was about to lay before the House. His proposition was, that one i o fo r r In a o c r e e r toaf ti n e iL la n a , rtes covenanting shouldt o defray e s n u tceh;into a costs and rie charges ;'a l bond, as might be incurred by the other side, in case the committee of appeal reported the petition to be frivolous and vexatious. The lion. Gentleman then moved his resolution, which provided that, Within two days after the prayer of any petition for an appeal had b e en granted, or at any other period which the House might think advisable, the petitioner or petitioners should enter into a bond or obligation, the form of which should be prepared by the chief clerk of the House, in the penal sum of 5001., and two sureties in 5250/. each, to defray all costs, charges, and expences (to be as sessed by one of the clerk, cif the Rouse), which might hays been incurred by the . opposite party, if the committee should report to the House that the petition was frivolous and vexatious ; such hood or obligation to be void and of no effect on the payment of the costs and charges assessed. • Mr. G. BANKES was anx i ous that this question, which was one of considerable importance, should be postponed to another night, in order that it might be properly discussed. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving, " That this debate be adjourned to Monday." Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, that the expellees incidental to getting private bills through the House were enormous ; and, instead of increasing them, some means ought to be devised for reducing them. He was of opinion that the debate ought to be adjourned. Mr. LITTLETON could not acquiesce in the proposition of his Hon. and Learned Friend. Mr. BA'I'LEY was of opinion that this discussion should be postponed till his Learned Friends, the Attorney and Solicitor-General, were in their places. Mr. S. BOURNE was more sanguine than many gentlemen as to the success of the plans introducesl by his Hon. - Friend, with respect to private Committ ees . Mr. G. BANKES said, his Hon. Friend had changed the nature of his proposition, and therefore he wished it to be fully discussed. The House then divided, when there appeared_ For the original motion 32 I Against it lO Majority fur, the Resolution,_22. On the admission of strangers, we found Mr. Hume on his legs, moving for the following accounts " Au- account of the number of midshipmen promoted to be Lieutenants, from the Ist of January, 1826, to the Ist ofJanuary, 1827, the names of the persons, and the dates of their service, dis tinguishing the promotions on foreign stations. " An account of the number of Lieutenants promoted to be commanders in the navy, during the smile period, with their names, the date of their commissions, distinguishing those on foreign stations, and removals by death, and dismissals by Courts-martial. " An account of officers promoted from rear-admirals to admi rals, in the same period, and with the like distinctions. " An account of the number of officers in the British navy, on the Ist of January, 1827, distinguishing the several ranks, and the number of each. "An account of the number of gentlemen appointed to be com missioned officers in the Royal Marines. "An account of the number of officers in the Royal Marines, promoted from half-pay to full pay, from the Ist of January 1826, till the Ist of January, 1827, with the number of each rank. "An account of the number of officers in the Royal Marines, allowed to sell their commissions from the Ist of January, 1826, to Is t of January, 1827."—Ordered. Mr. GRATTAN postponed the adjourned de bate, on the motion respecting the Mallow election, till 111onday next, Mr. WILMOT HORTON preseuted copies of correspondence respecting the slave-trade at the Mauritito. o r _ dered to be printed. The House then adjourned at a few minutes after -1 I o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF COMMONS. ORDERS OF THE DAY FOR THIS DAY. 1. Supply—Committee. S. Ways and Means—Committee. 3. King's Message—Committee of the whole House thereupon. NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR THIS DAY. • I. Sir Henry Hardinge—Ordnance Estimates (in Committee of Supply.) V. Sir Thomas Lethbridge—Bill to amend the General Turnpike Acts. S. Sir John Newpoit—Select Committee on the Petition from the City of Waterford [presented 9th February], for the improvement of the communication to the South and South-west of Ireland by Milford Haven. NOTICE GIVEN YESTERDAY. Monday, Feb. W. Mr. Brausby Ceoper—ResolutiOn against adding Voices" to Com mittees on Private Bills. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE. FRENCH PAPERS. (From the Etoile dated Wednesday, Feb. 14.) CONSTANTINOPZ, from tat to 112th Jll4. " Jan. I.—The Pacha of Damascus was at first banished.is successor to C Pacha of C aesarea Hadgi Salik, who was at M arac h, i s appo i nte d P acha of Caesarea, just fis been A: Pasha , se n t to late cut off his h ea d. Hi ea. at A D h is a3 H and Tchapan Oglou Mehemed Pacha, who was an exile at Tokat, is named Pacha of Marach. "Jan. 2.—Sady Effendi is named Divan Effendi of Wallachia; he will set out for Bucharest as soon as the Capon Kiaia of the Prince has paid him his travelling expenses. 4‘ Jan. 4.—Two Tartars who arrived yesterday, brought some heads, which have been exposed with the following inscription :...._ Some robbers lately appeared at Talenti and lgnoki. His Excellency Redschid Pacha sent against them his troops, the faith ful friends of victory. The enemy, attacked with impetuosity, was completely routed ; 2 cannon, 5 standards, and 150 heads, were the trophies of the combat : they are seen here ignominiously settled in the dust.' " Redschid Pacha announces that he has beaten the Greeks, and that Hissi Bey, with 2,000 men, has made them 117 towards Salona. Among those whom he has lost, and who are pretty nu merous, are Miscorli Ahmed Bey, his kiajah, Hassan Bey, and five other Albanian Bimbachi. • Karaiskaki, who commanded The Greeks, had with him several Europeans. An account of this affair is here annexed in the form of a letter, addressed by the Chief to his countrymen; it circulates at Constantinople with a variation. "The individual there called Dimos Teelias is designated in other copies by the name of Dinionveil ; this alteration, which probably was not made unintentionally, has produced the effect expected from it, and this has given reason to suppose that this individual was a Frenchman. According to another account which came from Egina, Redschid Pacha having sent into Upper Greece his Kiaia Bey, and other Birnbachis, with 4,000 Alba nians, to reduce the revolted villages, this' corps being pressed by Karaiskaki and Agalapoulo-Maeri, was obliged to take refuge in Arahora, a village near Salona, and after a siege of some days, being in want of provisions, resolved to retreat by night. The Greeks who guarded the passages are stated to have attacked them, and to have killed 1,300 men. This action passed on the 6th of December, and it is known from the testimony of those who were near the spot, that the loss of the Turks did not exceed 100 men. " Redschid Pacha has written to the Porte that he was in want of provisions, and that if he did not soon receive them he should be obliged to raise the siege of Athens. " Jan. 6.—Sixteen Janissaries have been brought from Kaa tamboul, whither they were banished in the month of June. They have been executed in different parts of Constantinople. It is said that they used seditious language. " A messenger from the Pacha of Diarbekir has brought word that his master has beaten the Yerides (Curds, who often plunder the caravans of Bagdad) and that he Bendel° the Porte heads and slaves. The Pacha of Monch has retired into the Persian territory, after having been beaten by his successor near Diadornus. "Jan. 7.—Letters from Navarino say, that Ibrahim Pacha had left 3,000 men at Tripolizza, and that when the Egyptian squa dron arrived, he was with 8,000 in the environs of Modon, Coron. and Navarino. pirateng his iu t possessionrepi ere his meerTel :ounded. The vessel was taken s p li t o 7 e7l2 wi o 'i i ch . lovfi tt ` hi ` i e l.N ayb r e e rs F s e k a l r efi n orne f l. r m o T nti ,oi -l e y odffi d b r ey a e , rz t s h awc a ea t er l se i , a la y s ceived were killed, the others have been carried with their vessel to Malta, b tli , ty bo t a h r e , y lin s g en , t s z o a n c i c e . boa ese ts a f l o v r d tl o ia n t where it is affirmed they will he treated as pirates. Jan. B.—The Sultan has been to-day to visit the Seraskier; he was'delighted with the new music, a n d contented with the cavalry which exercised before him. lie then held a council with the Grand Vizier, the Seraskier, and some other officers. The Ex-Segemen-Bachi has been exiled; he behaved very zealously in the destruction of the corps of Janisaries, of which be was one of the principal officers. Jan. 9.-11a"?' Bey is expected to-morrow. It is af firmed, that he will be appointed Diolet-iniziri, a place which has not been filled since the death of Halet Effendi.. The Seras kier has exiled two of hia officers, for having caused some peysoua to be pot into prison, from whom they designed to extort money. " The Elders of the Corporation have been summoned to the Porte, anti informed that there is to be only one assistant in each shop, and that the others must either enrol themselves in the new troops, or return to their own country. " Jan. l 1 .--Selim Bey, son of Veli Pacha, and grandson of Ali Pacha of Jannina, has returned from his mission to Albania, where he was sent to stir up the Albanian Chiefs over whom the remembrance of the family gives him some influence. This you:lg man distinguished himself by his bravery in the events in June. He was with the Seraskier, and directed him. R e h as contrived to please the Sultan, and it is suppoied that he will one day rise very high in favour. " The former Chief Director of the Customs at Constantinople is appointed Askesnazire (intendant of the troops), and has been invested with the caftan of honour. "In the ordinance respecting the coffee-houses s Galata, which