The Sun. — London, England, 1827-03-06 00:00:00

People ought to entertain to a Constitutional Monarch, The pbrsonal virtues of a Sovereign could be no apology for a ser vility of feeling in the itibjects. But the King's Address—the, whole transaction spoke no diffidence on the part of Royalty in the allegiance of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. On the contrary, the expressions to the public were those of satisfaction at the dutiful attachment which his Majesty re ceived from his subjects of every class in Ireland. This. conduct of the Sovereign had naturally made a deep impression upon the hearts of the people of Ireland. No sophistry could ex plain it away. It had induced the Catholics to hope, that the trust which his Majesty had reposed in them was to be followed by some relaxation of the statutes that oppressed them. And in order to make assurance doubly sure, they were, told—at a time too, be it observed, when it was acknowledged that they were good and loyal subjects—that they must not be admitted to au equal participation in the rights and privileges of the Constitution. (Hear, hear.) He asserted again and again, that if this proscrip tion was continued; if the Government intended to act under the delusion which had hitherto clouded its every act towards the Roman Catholic population of Ireland, the acts charged against the Sheila, the O'Connels, and the other leaders of the Catholic Body in that country, would amount to nothing, compared to the feelings which would be excited by again denying to so large a body of persons those rights and privileges to which they felt themselves so fully and justly entitled, and in the hope to obtain which, they again found themselves deluded.—(Hear, bear.)—But it was the business of Parliament to prevent the arrival of such a crisis ; it was their duty to provide for' the union, the happiness, and the prosperity of the United Empire, by removing those disquali fications which disturbed its quiet, and endangered its security.—, (Cheers.) He was almost ashamed to say any more upon this subject ; but, if they looked to the page of Irish History, he meant not to the history of the present day, but of 1798 ; and, unless their minds were made up to a recurrence of the miseries of that period, they must accede to some such measure as that which he was then about to submit to them.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—There Were but two paths left them to pursue. Indeed, he might say in the language of the poet— . . _ . . "Hi; locus est, partes übi se via findit in ambas. Dextera quw ditis magni sub mwnia tendit; Rae Elysium nobis ; at lwva malorum Exercet pcenas, et ad impia Tartars mittit."---(Cheers.) But he hoped that the House would feel inclined to take the right path ; he trusted they would feel inclined to have their "goodness glorified"—that they cherish in their minds the justice as well as the necessity of redressing the long-suffered wrongs of their fel- low-subjects, and thus contribute to the happiness and security of the community at large--(Cheers.)—He had nothing further to add, and should therefore move, " That this House deeply felt im pressed with the necessity of taking into its consideration the pre tent laws, inflicting penalties and disabilities upon their Rowan Catholic fellow-subjects, with a view to removing them." Lord MORP ETH rose to second the motion. He hoped that, even at this late period, Parliament would be found ready to d ea l ou t equa l j us ti ce t o th e i r o pp resse d Catholic fellow subjects.—(Hear h ear, hear!)—Was it not intolerable that so large a portion of the population of these realms should, without any act or fault of their own. be deprived of the greatest privileges and advantages of the Constitution which their more fortunate Protestant brethren had the happiness of enjoying ?—(Hear !)._ Was it not natural that persons so disqualified, without any fault of their own, should resent their disqualifications ?—(llear !)___ That irritation, arising from this cause, at present existed, and that, too, t o an alarming extent, in Ireland, he must be a bold Man who would pretend to deny.—(Hear.)—The Hon. Baronet, in moving his Resolution, had drawn a feeling picture of the state of the Irish Catholics.—(Hear, hear, hear !)--It was not Ids intention to add to the colouring of that picture, it was sufficiently strong and clear. It carried upon • the face of it that truth which must come home to the mind of every man open to conviction.—(Cheering.)—But he would call for the concurring testimony of every Gentleman at all acquainted with Ireland, when he stated that the Roman Catholic popfilation of Ireland were, at the present moment, roused to a man upon this question.—(Hear, hear.)—He agreed with those Hon. Gen tlemen who stated that much had been done for the Catholics of Ireland. But it was the natural feeling and impulse of the hu rt:mu mind, that gratitude was not very great where the benefit expected was not complete--(Hear, hear)—but that gratitude was altogether done away with when the grievance under which the ' Complaining party laboured was warranted neither by necessity or Justice.—(hear, hear.)—Under such circumstances, it was the intention, as it was the duty, of the Roman Catholic body, not to relax in their endeavours to obtain that complete redress to Which they were entitled.—(Hear, hear.)—Let it not be supposed that he wished to sanction or encourage any undue or improper at tentrita to obtain those rights ; on the contrary, his wish, as well' as his hope, was, that those rights would be conceded by the sound and dignified policy of the BritisliAdministration.—(Hear.)—Let tue°4oo l( to recent events--let them consider what has been passing upon the Continent, and then take into their consideration the state oflreland. --(Hear, hear. )- _ He alluded not to any false reports—he adverted not to any exaggerated statements—he took things ase toy were. It might not be impossible that we should have again in cailfor th e a id of the Protestants as well in Catholic Spain as Catholic Portugal well ; we might upo n th e plain's of Salamanca, as before the walls of Bade oe ; and with Jp,orvices, Mien what grace, let him ask, could they call for those rewarded they had found that their former exertions were Senate?` Chitrictions in the service and disqualifications in the i(ers).—With what spirit could any. Roman Catho .lc go forth in defence of his country, when he felt that he must return home the same degraded and disqualified being which his tors had been, and this for no fault of his, but only because he adhered to the faith professed by those ancestors ?—(Hear,hear, hear.)—The main question for the consideration of the House was this, were those who came determined to negative the motion that night conte n t with the present state of things in Ireland?— (Chee r s.)—And if not, we re they p repare d to su b m i t to the House any su b stitute by which the tranquillity of Ireland could be secured ?__(Hear, hear, hear.)—Unless they acceded to this measure, or came providedld b e • with an eff ec ti ve su b s tit u t e f or it, it ylvou in vain to rail a t t h e conduct of the Priests and Law ,and other leaders of the Catholics in that country.—(Hear, hear.) —What he and those who thought with him looked for, was the safety of the empire and the security of their descendants. (Cheers, ) ,—The Roman Catholics,whose reluctance to take the oath . exclud e d t h em from seats in that House, were equally excluded Pcto another ground namely, because they were considered t n eanable o f o b serving the obligat i ons of an oat h . — (H ear, h ear, ilear. 1., )---,- .e was as zealous as any man in his wish to support the Established Church ; but he did not feel that that Church required those outward bulwarks to support it. Let the Jesuit, 11.68 e dark and devious course required such assistance, have it extended t o hi m ; let the Apostolicals of Spain seek to support their wretched doctrines by policy such as this ; but let not the Church of England __ a Church established upon the firm basis of truth and justice.—seek to surround itself with such weak and hollow propa.—( toleratio Hear.)—Let her, on the contrary, show that a and liberality which belonged to her as a Christian Es iz tablishment.—(Hear, hear.)—They had been told that this e ,:lore would not remove the distresses which existed in Ireland that it wou ld not create capital—that it would not promote tr distress. • He w as aware t h at i t would not at once remove those s"exiies; but th a t was not t h e question. The question was, ±h ot' far it would remove those discontents, and irritations, and Zeao: .burnings, which were at present caused by religious dissen that country.—( Hear, hear. )—Some gentlemen had found tfaiwuith the Catholic Clergy, and some had declaimed against were conductn of the Catholic Leaders; but if these complaints wfnounded, why no t a d opt a measure which would take wth e at re':n from these l ea d ers . —(H ear, h ear. ) — Th e country might be callt engaged in support of Catholic Portugal ; they ciliate and unit to interfere with Catholic Spain ; why not con- Protestants of e the, Catholics of Ireland with the Catholics and Mem ber) had he felt Ln g l and.—(Cheers.)—He, though a young at some length upon this question, because Clai ms of warmly and sincerely b sti of tri,th and . a . the Cathor • upon it —(Hear, hear.)—The Justice.—(Hear, succeed, as they were founded on the H tion S t ? .Ll'lepin next Air. G . D A 1 , •--- .. -(liear, hear.) was not hia inten appeals of th e addressed the House. It y generally to the able and eloquent but he must ton. Baron e t in favour of the Roman Catholics Baronet's ar g na utn a ' e e n s t re observations upon one or two of the Hon. that the CathTo • The Hon. Baronet was mistaken in stating Limerick, hiiteefacwtere dealt with in violation of the Treaty of Terence whatever t° W as, that th e T reaty ' o f Limerick had no re joyrnent of the religio P°li tical rights ; it only provided for the en that Treaty they could. innand property of the Catholics, and without ''Wee another Act, of ivi r exercise their religion at all. There milder l am, upon this subject, which was of a n--"ure, requi r i this had as little ref ng the oath of allegiance to be taken; but c atholieB as the etherence to the political rights of the Roman tt_ate of Ireland woul7;magi Any person unacquainted with the real rut such the R O Tie, from the speeches made in that suc h th olan Catholics were in a state of bondage ; Was not and action i n ev e fact —they enjoyed the liberty of speech ore thren.-._(L ota i cr y. Way in common with their Protestant would b e led t cries of ‘‘ hear, hear," and a laugh.)—One mein was a ° think, too, that the disqualification as to Parlia - e di sturb matter which met him at every turn, which tortured an 1 ed his ' ‘ ,,.,,, i not the Poi i magination. It was not, however, so ; this b c'dy of the point which formed the bond of union between the B oman Catholics a.nd the Aristocracy of the country; that Union was formed and cemented by the Catholic Priesthood. -.(Hear, hear !)—'They were the bond of union ; and not the sufferings, the privations, the disabilities, and the thousand other matters of which so much had 'been said and repeated in that House. The habit of the 'Priests was to call upon their congre gations to adhere to the religion of their forefathers, and they were in the constant habit of reviling the established religion of the country—(Hear, hear !)--and calumniating its Mi nis t ers . The Hon. Member proceeded • td read a long extract from Le land's History of Ireland, for the purpose of showing the opi nions entertained with respect to the motives and objects of the Catholic Priests, as well as Laity. What, he asked, was the cause of the war in which Oliver Cromwell was engaged ? It was pretended to be for the restoration of the Royal Family, but it was, in reality, for the restoration of the Roman Catholic Re ligion; and in the reign of James the Second the leading Pro testants were pointed out and attainted by name.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—The overturning of the Protestant Religion was the great object aimed at by the Catholics. They always invoked hosti lity to - the Protestant Church. They gloried—they triumphed— in the prospect of the downfall of that Church, and spoke with exultation of the approach of the danger which might be appre hended from the invention of the steam-boats to Ireland.—(Hear!) —What was the result of all this ? The natural result was the animosity and disorganization which had prevailed in Ireland. But the worst part of the disorganization which had lately taken place was still to be described. A new body had lately sprung up in the political concerns of the country. The Roman Catholic Clergy who had before confined themselves to the spiritual inte rests of their flocks, had lately interfered in political matters, and wielded a despotic authority all over the country. A body, of men, unknown to the Constitution—not recognised by the laws of the land, and educated and brought up in hostility to the Protes tant Establishment—had now got the whole of the political power of Ireland into their hands ; and it was hardly possibly to calcu late how much the natural bond between landlord and tenant had been weakened by this mischievous influence. He had in his hands incontrovertible proofs that such was the manner in which the Roman Catholic Clergy had used their power. The docu ments to which he alluded related to the County of Waterford Election ; and when he had examined them, he declared that they exhibited the existence of such a power and influence, exercised by the Priests over the Roman Catholic population of Ireland, as lie had never before known ; and he would not do his duty to the people of England, unless he laid before them some of the proofs of that influence of the Catholic Priests of Ireland over their flocks, the depth of which it would not he easy for English Protestants to fathom. First, then, he called the attention of the House to an Address from his tenants to the Lord Waterford, some time before the election—the voluntary Address of his Catholic tenants ; for his Lordship knew nothing whatever about it, until the deputation came to him to present it. The persons who signed the Address stated, " that it was with the strongest feelings of regret that they had heard it represented that his Lordship was an enemy to their holy religion ; that they did not believe such representation• and had never known any instance in which his Lordship had given any preference to Protestants, at the expence of Catholics ; that his Lordship had always conducted himself with great im partiality ; that they would be sorry to suffer any insidious prac tices to separate them from their landlord ; that they knew their own comforts, and would not fail their landlord when the day of trial came." This Address hay fi been signed by MO Catholic tenants. Now, he would ask, whether any language could have better expressed the feelings of a grateful and happy ten nantry ? What was the result ? Why, that in the space of two short months after this Address was presented, the greater part of these 510 tenants voted against their land lord..—(Hear, hear.)—This was monstrous treachery, and when the Addressers were reproached with it, they endeavoured tb excuse themselves by saying, that they had been compelled to vote as they did, as they could not contend against the de nunciations of their Priests.---(Hear.)—To shew the way in which these people had been practised upon by the priests, he would beg leave to call the attention of the House to the substance of some affidavits concerning this matter. It was sworn that a priest (Michael Tobin, we think he stated) would neither hear the confessions of those who -voted for such candidates as opposed the Catholic Claims, nor give them extreme unction, but would suffer them to ,die like beasts.—(Hear, hear! and a laugh.)—ln another affidavit, a priest at Dungarvon had said that he would refuse the rites and benefits of the Roman Catholic Church to those who voted for such as were opposed to the Roman Catholic Claims; another priest had stated to his flock, after service, that he had a few words to say to them, and these were to beware of the gates of hell, otherwise the gates of Curraghmore (a seat of the Marquis of Waterford), which were now open for them. Ano ther Priest threatened his flock with all the vengeance of the Church unless they voted for Mr. V. Stuart; and a witness swore, that on attending a chapel in that county, on the 15th of Match, previous to the election, he heard the priest say, that if they voted for those who opposed the Catholic Claims, he would neither confess them, admit them to the benefit of the Jubilee, nor attend them on their death-beds. Another priest, it was wit nessed, had stated to his flock, that all the priests had orders from their bishops to say, that no Catholics ought to vote for Lord G. Beresford, or if they did, they would go to the He might state similar facts against sixteen more Priests, but what be had said sufficiently showed the manner in which they had pro ceeded. He had heard, with the utmost astonishment, some re marks made by the Learned Attorney-General opposite (Plunkett), relative to the interference of the Clergy of the Protestant Esta blished Church in elections. The Protestant Established Clergy had a right to interfere in some measure, because they themselves had freeholds and votes ; but they had not certainly interfered in the manner to which the Catholic Clergy had resorted. The Roman Catholic Priesthood were looking for Catholic supremacy in Ireland ; and unless the evil should be carefully guarded against, the Protestants would be put down and a Roman Catholic supre macy established.—(Hear. ) Mr. SPRING RICE rose (at the same time with Mr. Villiers Stuart, but the latter gave way), and said,. the Hon. Baronet who had introduced the subject, and the Noble Lord who had seconded his motion, had thrown out a challenge to his Hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Dawson) and those who con curred with him, and called upon them, if they did not choose to agree to the motion, to state precisely what was the alternative which they contemplated. His Hon. Friend did not appear at all disposed to be clear on that point, and appeared to be afraid to exhibit the horrid lineaments of the only other alternative that remained. It would be, to recall the worst times of all countries, and. the bad times of that worst governed of all countries,, Ireland. —lt bad been well suggested by the Hon. Baronet and the Noble Lord near him, that the state of Ireland was, at present, not only calamitous but dangerous. There were but two courses to be adopted—either to grant the Roman Catholic claims or to put an end. to Catholic opposition. If they persisted in refusing to grant the Roman Catholic claims, the only other alternative was, to suppress and subdue the Catholics. He would draw the atten tion of the House to the Question relating to the 40s. freeholders, and endeavour to trace the origin of the disassociation between the landlords and tenants. The Hon. Gentleman contended that it originated at Waterford, but he (Mr. S. Rice) maintained that it was much older, although it took place on the eve of a general election. It was not in 1827, and in the county of Waterford, but it had originated with the friends and predecessors of the Hon. Gentleman in the county of Londonderry. It was an appeal against the landlord's by the Protestant delegates of Dungannon to the Protestant Electors of Ireland, and it called upon them on the ground of duty towards themselves and Heaven. He (Mr. S. Rice) did not apprehend that the Hon. Gentleman would assert that a tenant was hound, under all circumstances, to act under the directions of his landlord ; and if there ever were an exception, calling upon the Roman Catholic Clergy and laity to abandon every thing but character, it was in the late case. The poorer classes might not expect or feel a direct benefit from Emancipa tion ; but its spirit, like the air, would influence them ; and if a Constitutional reproach were fixed upon the Nobility, it descended in degree to the lowest grade. He was ready to put the whole question upon this point ; had any man ever met a Catholic pea_ san. of mature years who did not know that there was a distinc tion in the law between Catholics and Protestants? With regard to the conduct of the Members of the Association, he was not called upon to defend it ; but he would ask of those who objected to the Association on the score of its violence, whether they were willing to abide by this test; and whether, if the Association were tranquil, they would consent to Emancipation? If the Asso ciation ceased to exist, and Mr. O'Connell employed himself at the Bar, and Mr. Shiel confined himself also to his profession, would the Hon. Gentleman, as an opponent of Emancipation, acquiesce in what was now required? If he would, then he had a good right to quarrel with the Roman Catholic leaders ; but, if not, he only used an argument which was a make-weight in the scale (the House e xhibiting some signs of impatience, the Speaker was obliged to call it to order, and Mr. S. Rice paused until order was restored. )_Honourable Gentlemen approached this ques tion with different views. come looked upon it as a poli tical struggle ; but it was to be decided on higher prin ciples, and to be weighed and measured by another stan dard. It was not a question of a political power that ought to govern the the discretion of the House. It was now the eleventh 1 hour, and he would appeal to the opponents of concession as to the time already lost ; he would inquire of friend or enemy, whe ther it was possible now, by a combination of political wisdom or legislative authority, to regain the ground lost within the two last years. Some parties or other were responsible, and he regretted it the more, because they were aware of the nsagnitude of the good and evil. At the Union; the Irish had been told to trust their lives, properties, and hopes, to a British Parliament.; and they might depend upon it, when a general feeling was expressed, the English people had too much generosity to allow it to be over borne by numbers. There was a great' number of Members pre sent now for the first time, and they ought to hesitate before they connected themselves with a cause against which the great body of the Irish people were united. It was not a question of a mere sugar island, but of a mighty people on the other side of a narrow channel ; it was a question of Irish interest and British connexion, and he looked to the result with anxiety, inasmuch as, if it were decided in the negative, it would entail misery upon Ireland.— The Honourable Member concluded by thanking the House for having shewn him so much indulgent patience. Mr. V. STUART—It was not his intention to de tain the House by going at length into the discussion of the general merits of the Catholic Question ; but to-night there were features —features of a modern character—to which he felt himself en titled to allude—features which had been pointed out and criticised by the enemies of Catholic Emancipation, as affording grave reasons for opposition, but on which he, on the contrary, would rely as grounds for concession. He referred to the conduct of the freeholders, and to the interference of the Catholic Clergy, at the late general election in Ireland. He would first speak of the body of men which he had mentioned last in order —men, whose unostentatious piety, and zealous discharge of their profes sional duties, where unsurpassed by the Clergy of any other per suasion —(Hear, hear !)—but who, unhappily, had been the ob jects of as much'uninerited obloquy as, he would venture to say, party spirit, even in Ireland, had ever bespattered the victims of its malice. God forbid that his motives, in defending the Catholic Clergy, should for a moment be misunderstood : God forbid it should be supposed that he was about to vindicate the interference of Churchmen in temporal affairs: So much the contrary, that he protested he knew no language strong enough' to express his condemnation of such a practice ; but owing its origin to the crabbed and crooked policy of the very men who were foremost to cry out against it, it excited in him no surprise, but souse re gret that the Catholic Clergy, from the peculiar hardship of the situation in which they were placed, were forced, in self-defence, to follow the example set them by many of their Protestant brethren, without any of their excuses and palliations. (Much cheering.) He repeated, that after all, they had bet followed the example set them by others ; for he should be glad to know the occasion when the Clergy of England had been slack in exerting themselves politically. In reference to the conduct of the Priesthood at the County of Waterford Election, he would state to the House' what occurred. ror some months previous to the election instructions were given by the Clergy to the Freeholders, as to the manner in which they were to discharge their duties at the election. They were told that they were to he guided in giving their votes by the dictates of their conscience; that they were to vote for the person best qualified to represent their feelings and their interests ; and that, in short, they were to vote consistently with a faithful observance of the oaths prescribed for them to be taken. This was the whole of the con duct observed by the Catholic Clergy—this " the head and front of their offending." As to the charges adduced by the Hon. Mem ber against any individual Clergyman he could only say, that he wally disbelieved them. With resneet to the conduct of the forty shilling freeholders, he was himself favourabl- to' the fair in fluence of the landlords over their tenantry, though he was not an advocate for an absolute controul. He wished to see a tenantry grateful for the kindnesses of a protecting landlord ; but there were limits to gratitude, as to generosity, and other virtues. A nation could not be generous with her honour, a woman with her virtue, or a freeholder with his franchise.—(Cheers. )—He would ask, would not a freeholder be unworthy of the exercise of that fran chise which the Constitution gave him, who would vote for a Candidate who, even by his own avowal, was ready to brand him as a traitor to his King, a perjurer to his country, and an idolator to his God?—(Cheers.) _ _ " IVas•ever voter in such humour woo'd? Wasever voter in such humour won ?" (cheers and laughter). If a Candidate was to, canvass a manu facturing town, who was to declare himself favourable to a high price of corn ; or a Candidate for an agricultural district declare himself for a cheap price, could either expect to meet the support of those to whose interests he declared himself opposed t hear, hear, bear!)? Or was it reasonable for an Anti-Catholic Mem ber to expect support in becoming the Representative of a county when he was opposed to the religion of a majority of its freehold ers (hear, hear!)? Ile•was adverse to the interference of the Clergy of any religious persuasion in political concerns; but the interference which was now complained of, was the natural and necessary consequences of the law; for that interference there was but one cause—Catholic oppression ; and but one cure—Catholic Emancipation—(cheers). Mr. G. BANKES admitted that the measure brought forward by the Honourable Baronet was supported by the mighty names which formed that constellation of intellect described by the Honourable Baronet, which was capable of shedding the greatest light on any subject or effecting any ob ject, in the accomplishment of which they engaged. But it was a defect frequently in persons of surpassing talent, that they overlooked difficulties that struck upon the attention of less gifted persons. If the Catholics were admitted to political power, was it not natural that they should endeavour to obtain an ascendancy of the members of their religion ? The consideration of the succession furnished another palpable objection to the con cessions required by the Roman Catholics. Was. the exception of succession to the Throne to be made? or, if it was not to be pillars,K , Kingdom dTino The still eh t eninggreaterw Catholic, a a sthi io e ma Constitution. h e l anomaly yet presiding a o on l ud, d t i o fe c i tur Houses was a o e f r no t afe l a I l ri e ay a din Protestant ae nn o d f t t m t hh Church.aee de essential that the Ki ng s h ould be a Protestant, he owned he was desirous of seeing the pillars of the constitution also talihit"Dnisataeituntteerd athewere soundnessvere admitted o f to the Parliament, hol whole ed i x fi v c h e n . IR P dIi tie s r of f o wme t : e aae s cinbd t u a s f ra n t ci t odt h — amt het i nho t tc e s a h E hn s au t d a l d b , i ha Its be e d eionnt C ae h irde u es r rt c e h di n tmhsaoutrbeDv subverting i a enn n gt eßtr the e r i si i ron C z a t: t t ha Protestant as in i its religion—(hear, (h ear it 11 .na3 ea,r)t_o the spirit r with av i i t o n v f otfhasertetliingginnupheanbs objected.— There were many respectable authorities which considered super stition more dangerous than even Atheism; of these he would refer to an eminent one, Lord Bacon, who said, that " Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation : all which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, though religion were not; but superstition dismounts all these, and erecteth an absolute uncontroulable monarchy in the minds of men "—The Priesthood in Ireland, and the manner in which they exercised that influence at the County of Waterford election represented this uncontrolable monarchy.—(Hear, hear.) He Wished to disclaim any invidious or offensive comparison be tween Atheists and members of the Roman Catholic Religion._ The Honourable Gentleman then referred to the travels of Captain Head in the New States of South America, to show the great power possessed there by the Catholic Priesthood. At one place, they had excited a rebellion, and seized the Governor in his bed, for the purpose of putting down the Charter of Toleration, which was, by their orders, publicly burned by the hands of the common hangman. This was the case with regard to republican, regene rated, South Anierica.—(Cheers.)—How was it in Monarchical Europ Had e?• Had France made no retrograde steps w ith respect to religious freedom ? Had the Jesuits made no progress When there been no attempts made against the liberty of the press ? di t the House considered the systematic efforts ma kin g , in eve to increase the power of the Churc h of Rome, this was, surely, a strange moment to select for admitting its adherents to civil rights, which it had been hitherto deemed advisable to deny them in this country? Mr. BROWNLOW felt that it was perfectly idle, on his part, to add anything to the unanswerable arguments that had been adduced by the Honourable Baronet (Sir F. Bur dett) in support of the claims of the Catholics. But he could not avoid joining his prayers and entreaties to those of the Ho nourable Baronet for the success of this great Question. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. G. Bankes) who had preceded him, had travelled over every land on the face of the Globe, in search of materials for his speech. There was no country, he believed, the Honourable Gentleman had not mentioned, except unfortunate Ireland, which was the subject of the discussion—( a laugh.)— He had heard that some of the opponents of the Catholic Ques tion had declared their determination to " show a good fight in defense of their cause, and if necessary, to nail the colours to the mast, and go down with the ship." Now, he asked any man of common sense on the other side of the question, who was dis posed to speak the truth, whether, if they succeeded by a few miserable majorities, in defeating the Catholics, they could be lieve the system they were upholding would be safe or perma nent? Any man who would answer that question in the affir mative, must be ver)" , little versed in the history of the Catholic Question. Dean Swift, in writing to a friend on the subject of the Sacramental Test, observed, that the Catholics at that time were without leaders, organization, or power. How different their condition in 1790, when the petitions were set on foot for the repeal of the Penal Laws? The state of Ireland was like that of a man on the edge of a hill, where he could not stand, but must move either backward or forward.—(H ear !)—What, then, was to be done ? Was Parliament to go back and re-enact the Penal Code ? If that was the meaning of the Hon. Member for Derry (Mr. G. Dawson), he wished that Hon. Gentleman had said so openly. Certainly he did understand that Hon. Gentleman to mean, ! by " firmness and decision," that he was disposed to have recourse to violence against the Catholics.—(Cheers.) — But the Hon. Gentleman, however strongly disposed he might be, would. not avow that such was his intention. Indeed, the project of re-enacting the Penal Code Was altogether impossible. No man in Ireland would hear of it for a moment.—(Cheers.) — Since then the question could not continue as it was, nor be car ried back—for nohOdi had ventured to make any such proposi tion, though the Hon. Member for Deny (Mr. G. Dawson) had darkly and mysteriously hinted at it—what other course remained but that of carrying it forward ? Justice, better late than never, would enforce a total repeal of that Penal Code which was par tially relaxed in 1793. • The Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) had stated this part of his case with admirable truth and decision. No thing could be more ridiculous and untenable than the present state of the law in Ireland. When it was proposed to extend the elective franchise to the Catholics, the Irish Parliament was asked whether it would bring ignorance, bigotry, and numbers within the pale of the . Constitution, while the countervailing influence of the education and property belonging to the Catholics was still excluded ? Yet this was precisely what had been done. A favour was given with one band, and a blow with the other.— (Cheers.)—The Honourable Member for Derry objected that the . Priests had interfered with the elections.—He (Mr. Brown low) had seen a good deal of this kind of support, and he had felt the full efficacy of it himself. In some instances the Priests had succeeded, and in many others they had failed.— But he bad seen the ties of landlord and tenant broken as fre quently for Candidates both equally zealous in the Protestant in terest, as in any contests in which the Catholics had been con cerned.—(Hear.)—The Priests, during the late elections, had made use of no unfair influence, as far as his observation had gone. The consequences of deferring the settlement of this ques tion would be increasing danger and insecurity to all classes of the Irish people. Already, there was no safety for life, liberty, or property, in that country. 'I here was no such thing as law or authority in any part of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)—The Consti tution was tumbling to pieces, and society was dissolving.—( Hear, hear, hear.)—lt was to such . a state of things as this that he invited the special consideration of the House. They had been told that the Catholics were, to a man, discontented. There could be no doubt of that fact. The spirit of freedom bad spread its sacred flame throughout the country, and every man was de termined to be emancipated, or cease to exist. But - the House was told Oa- , state of things had been produced by an unlawful Associatiffi: How it had been produced, it was comparatively immaterial to inquire. The fact was, that the evil existed, and the question was, how it was to he remedied ? The Catholic Association undoubtedly possessed the affections and confidence of the Irish people; it wielded the physical force of the country. If Parliament wished to wean the people from the Association, sod consolidate them into one mass of loyal snldects, it must .he by giving them all a share in the Constitution. He implored the House, therefore, to adopt a measure which would conciliate Ire land, and place the country in a state of security,—(Hear.) Mr. CIIST opposed the motion. Mr. G. MOORE, said, that this was not a question of national injury or oppression, but of relative constittitoaal rights. It was a question to he considered not with refereno- to the.fed ings of any particular class ofliis Majesty's subjects. it with re ference to the security of the whole kin t ,:cloni„ rt w,s obj ec t e d, to those who opposed this measure. that they,opposed the rights of the people; but there was no foundation for this obi slim'. He, for one, did not resist the concession of political pow( r to the Ro man Catholics on account of their faith alone, or on account of their adherence to that faith, with reference merely to religious considerations, but because they held tenets which went to the re cognition of a system of ecclesiastical domination—which went to ttie recognition of the supremacy of a foreign power, exercising a jurisdiction theoretically ecclesiastical, but directed practically to political objects, and too often executed by political means. It had also been objected to those who opposed concession, that they opposed natural and indefeasible rights ; but as this argu ment had not been insisted on to-night, it was not his intention to dwell upon it. The notion of abstract right had been aban doned in argument both by Mr. O'Connell and Dr. Doyle. In arguing this question upon the ground of expediency, he did not think it had been stated so fairly as it ought to have been. They were not now debating upon the elements of a constitution to be formed and adopted ; they were not called upon to discuss what should be the form of the Constitution, but to change the existing Constitution, which had been established upon a principle to which this measure was opposed. - He.maintained, that before and up to the time of the Norman conquest, independence of the See of Rome was a governing principle in the Constitution of this country. The guards which had been established by our ancestors for the safety, of the Protestant Establishment had been wisely, deliberately and cautiously adopted ; they had been adopted by men who had experi ence of the fatal effects resulting from Papal domination. Such were the men by whom the Constitution was settled; and by whom was concession sought to he obtained? It was sought to be ob tained by those who had no experience of the evils against which our ancestors erected these constitutional safeguards, and who had every experience of the blessings which had resulted from these salutary restrictions. It was the Constitution which had secured the Protestant Religion—a Religion which was the source of that force,i tT n hh d i si e m p wi e v, n avas d hs e itt n ehhh c ec e :Cica o , f innssit e .ti l it i. itu a sue dit•tai Constitution 11e B that i t ,tsvih,h s e p iyEc i r i,mi i v t eptr etioirefey, called odt were heightenterprise, t that at of moral pros perity, and carried British resources into every qua eu r p t c e oa r nli o et f do tl ue l l e pi g aon l n o g b et e . . ; on achieve an experiment which, if once made, could never be recalled. The agitation which prevailed in Ireland had been designedly e x_ aggerated by those who had caused the agitation. No , doubt the leaders of the Catholic Association had been too successful in aug menting or keeping alive any existing discontent, but , there was abundance of evidence to show, that the people of Ireland were not in the state in which they had been represented to-be; and in whatever state they might be, the measure now proposed was least of all calculated to tranquillize that. country. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by apologising for having troubled the House at that late hour, and sat down by declaring his opposition to the proposal of the Hon. Baronet.—.(Hear, hear !) • , Mr. R. MARTIN rose amidst loud cries of ad journ; but after a short time succeeded in obtaining possession of the House, which, howeVer, manifested many symptoms of im patience while the Hon. Member was speaking. The Hon. Mem ber entered into a history of his own contest for Galway, and expressed his gratitude to Mr. O'Connell, by whose assistance he owned, and by that of the Catholic Priests, his election, had been secured against the power of that Government he had faithfully served for 30 years.—(Loud laughter and cheers.)—He owed his return to the Catholic Clergy and Mr. O'Connell. The Hon. Member, remarking the impatience of the House, concluded by declaring that he would support the Catholics. On the Hon. Member resuming his seat, there were again loud cries of adjourn, and on the motion of Sir John Newport, we be lieve, the Debate was adjourned till to-morrow (this day.) The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House Adjourned at One o'Clock. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. • HOUSE OF COMMONS. NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR THIS DAY. 1. Mr. Fynes Clinton—To discharge the Order for consideration of the Hedon Election Petition. 2. Mr. Sykes—Select Committee to take into consideration the Petition of certain Freemen of the Borough of Leicester, complaining of the conduct of the Corporation of that town at and previous to the late General Election. 3. Mr. Villiers Stuart—Papers connected with the Appointment of a re sident Stipendiary Magistrate, under the Constabulary Act, for the District of Kihnacthomas, in the County of Waterfo rd ; viz. the Certificate of the Magistrates to apply for, and the Memorial of the County against, that Appointment. 4. Mr. Alderman Walthman—Receipt and Expenditure of the Society for the Refuge of the Destitute. ORDERS OF THE DAY FOR THIS DAY. 1. 'Berwick-upon-Tweed Election Petition—Ballot for Committee at three 2. Readin "lection Petition—Ballot for Committee at half after three. 3. Writ et i.ght Bill—Second reading. 4. Canada '2lergy Reserves Bill—Second reading. 5. Roman Catholic Claims—Adjourned Debate. NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY. Wedriesday, March 7. Herries—Bill to repeal Act 28 - deo. 3, imposing regulations on the manufacture of Ounce Thread. 'Thursday, March 15. Lord Viscount Althorp—Select Committee to consider the mode of taking Polls at County Elections. The Law Library of the late Recorder of London (Sir John Silvester, Bart.) was brought to the hammer last week by Messrs. Saunders and Hodgson, of Fleet-street. It included, besides the Statutes at large, Journals of the Lords and Commons, and many other important works, 67 volumes of the Old Bailey Sessions Papers (from 1751 to 1821), which sold for 30 guineas. The statements which have gone abroad concerning Mr. Elliston's new theatre are only true as far as this :—A theatre is proposed to be built in the eastern part of London ; and the Royalty license is to be given up to the new House, which is to contain about three hundred pounds at Haymarket prices. A piece of ground admirably adapted to the purpose has been already taken on a lease for one hundred and fifty years in Lemon street.— Opera Glass. SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS. We insert a second letter, disavowing th e c h arge o f enmity towards the Constitution, on the part of certain Rev. Gentlemen, and others at Lisbon, and modestly attempting to recriminate on The 77 mes, for being sway e d by a wish "to calumniate their rel i gion, and injure their country," &c. &c. Whether this purnal, or the volunteer emigrants from Ireland to Lisbon, will have proved themselves in the long run the most upright and useful friends to the Irish interests generally, and in particular to those of the Irish Catholics, we shall not now raise a question. But for this especial nega tive upon our former statement, which went to accuse a number of Irish Friars settled in Portugal, with inveterate hostility to the free Constitution of that kingdom, we do not hesi tate to repeat that it is a fact notorious—and besides its notoriety, one of which proof the most direct and unanswerable exists in the hands of the Portuguese Government—we believe we may add of the British Government also—that not merely all the Lisbon con vents, but all the convents in Portugal except one, did contribute SUM of money for the support of Chaves and hir armed bands of rebels. Our Lisbon letter give few or no facts, but lean to the opinion that the rebel cause is rapidly deelining,—a belief, in which we need not say what happiness it would afford us to con cur.— Times. " We, the undersigned Irish Roman Catholics of Lisbon, having seen an article in The Times newspaper of the 2d inst., denouncing us as the most furious enemies of freedom—as ca _ bailers' against the existing government,--abettors of arbitrary power, and as ' moving Heaven and earth' to prevent the Portu guese people from enjoying the gift' of liberty,—deem it due to ourselves and to our country utterly and indignantly to deny the truth of that statement, which we solemnly affirm to be a foul, false, and malignant slander, totally destitute of foundation. " Mingled with other British subjects in a foreign land, there is nothing in our political principles or conduct to call for a dis tinction, and the animadversions of 77te Times, apparently for the purpose of stigmatizing us, calumniating our religion, and in juring our country, we conceive to be uncandid, unwarrantable, invidious, and unjust. " We likewise further declare, that, yielding to no class of persons in ardent attachment to civil and religious liberty, we would willingly extend to others the blessings we prize highly our selves ; and we do fervently hope, that the free institutions TeR oreal to this country by a beneficent Monarch, may prove permanent in duration, and productive of those advantages which well-regulated freedom 11 , 1 been ever found to produce." Lisbon, 20th February, 1827. The discussion of the Catholic question, MR our rea''•ere will see from our Parliamentary Report, is adjourned over to this day. The fliti'lllllll , Clit tick place at or earlier hour than usual, am' stoel,! -!.e House proceed at the -same rate to-night, a tr. usual speak eprsebottitte this inti s t qu e e x s t t e io n i ( t i probable, that the ' e v v il e i n no to t l a 'al tlir i t ' l een clay } . lear ß d' ut o , r it th i e g much longer deb ri a i t ‘ e isi th n at s i vil t l h t a .a t ke of Pi ll e s e t ttoli-gligt.,lte'oanfct-eera - nience dictating the reserving the .severestAiseuesion for the second day, on account of the rest which may then be taken. 'Die heads of the opponents of the Cathotee Claims seem very oddly constructed. TILT affect libe rality, dread Catholicism as a slavish religion—a religion hostile to good government. We have always understood, that Government was for the benefit of the people, and that the Government, under which the great body of the people were in a state of misery and discontent for genes rations must necessarily be bad, as failing to effect the nb.- ject for which Government is instituted, Now, aceorde ing to Mr. Dawson, the Church and State GOvernment of Ireland, so far,from promoting the peace and prosperity of the country, is the cause of all the disorder and discontent prevalent in the country. " The overthrow of the Pro testant I eligion (he says) was the great object aimed at by the Catholics, and from generation to generation they had been supplied with arguments for the overthrow of the glorious Established Church, by the harangues of Ca tholic demagogues. For this object the priests had been always struggling. What had been the cause of the deso lating wars which had so longoverspread Ireland ? Catholic hostility to the established Protestant Church." But if Catholic hostility to the established Protestant Church be the cause of the desolating wars which had so long over spread Ireland, the established Protestant Church is, on the other hand, the cause of the Catholic hostility. Nov the Pro testant Church may be a glorious Church; the Protestant establishment may be a glorious Protestant Establishment, for the Protestants to whom it gives an ascendancy ; but if that Esta blishment, and the ascendancy which it involves, provoke the hostility of the Catholics, and cause desolating wars and disor ders, this only proves that the glorious establishment which is so irreconcileable with the peace of the country, is condemned on every just principle of Government. ' Human nature is- the same its every country, and if Irish Catholics differ.from-the Catholics elsewhere, we must place the difference to the Government and laws under which they live, and not to their religion. Now, out of the two hundred millions of people in Europe, there are not above thirty millions of Protestants,—with the exception of the members of the Greek and Mahometan Churches, and the Jews, all the rest are Catholics. Yet we find the most of the Catholic nations peaceable and orderly enough, and sufficiently disposed to live on friendly terms with their Protestant neighbours. Of the people speaking the German language, little more than one-third are Protestant, yet the Catholics do not -oppress the Protestants on account of religion, neither do the Protestants oppress the Ca tholics. If an impartial person were to compare the Netherlands or the north of Italy with England, we fear that he would not give to the population of the latter the palm of superiority for correct conduct, industry, and good feeling. If, then, the Catholics elsewhere are not disorderly, and if they live on good terms with their Protestant' neighbours, while .in Ireland they are inflamed with animosity against the Church, that alone is almost a proof that the peculiarities of the Irish Protestant Church are the great cause of the difference be tween Irish and Continental Catholics, and, consequently, one great cause of the misery of Ireland. Accordingly we find, that in all the countries in which the Catholics and Protestants live harmoniously together, there is no ascendancy—the law interferes to protect each, and not to enable one church to oppress the other. The Irish Protestant Establishment, says Mr. Dawson, is a glori ous Establishment. Mr: Dawson is a Protestant, and it is glori ous for him ; and with a selfishness too common in the world, he thinks every thing ought to give way to himself and his likings. If Juggernaut were established in Ireland, and church lands and tithes secured to its worshippers, they would. also say it was a glorious establishment which enabled them 'to live - so splendidly, and to trample on the great majority of the people. But the liberty for which Mr. Dawson and his associates contend, is the liberty of the Popish Lord and the Virginian Planter, He did not die guise , • for their own (the landlords') benefit. The Irish tenants, it ought to he recol possessions the ma to tte t r h . e t ‘ e ‘ n T an h t e s linrisahglarenadtlomnrisas(,lizsays) had given their make them freeho lds, and the tenants were .in some mea sure, henotleases l s ike we t r l e te co E n n f g er li r s ed h te i n n an: u s e . h A a gr ma ea n t aer po a r a tio t n o o recol lected, C r e t eth,d:'for w a certain season, considered as trustees for the landlords." This is the Irish landlord's reading of the British Constitution—that Constitution which is the envy; of surround ing nations and the admiration of the •world. The freeholders, trustees of the landlords for a certain season! The landlords are every thing—Government, Constitution, Church-=-the People nothing ! This is one of the most 'barefaced aiowala ever made. The freeholder is to be a mere pipe for the landlord to blow. The moment he has a will of his own, he is an invader of the property of the landlord, to whom his actions belong as much as his ox or his ass. Impudent Aristocrats ! To hold such a lan guage before that Europe which they are every day stunning with their hymns in praise of British freedom ! Would it not be better to spare the torture of the poor wretches, to give the landlord at once a number of votes in Ms own person, corresponding to the number of his acres ; or if he must make. &show of dominion over animals, to allow to drive his cows to the basting!, and count a vote for each cow? With this contempt for thepeople, their feelings, their religion—this assumption that whatever the .ruling. castling, set their hearts on is super-excellent, and : ought to be placed beyond challenge, how is it possible that the country should. be anything but a scene of desolation? Can any country be possibly tranquil in which the opinion of the great body of the people passes for nothing ? Would the Scotch have been tranquil if their religion had been trodden under foot like that of the Irish Catholics, and the Church of England, ,of which they kicked out the Clergy at the Revolution, been permanently fastened on :them ? If the Scotch had not succeeded iu doing themselves justice, that tur bulence which distracted Scotland so long would have grown with the growth of the people; and we should have.had .the. Dawson and other profiters by the glorious Establishment, attributing. all the mischief to the hostility of the Presbyterians to the Established Church ? The finest part of all this is the complaint of the Pro testants that they are oppressed. Their meaningno doubt, is that the Catholics occasionally wince under the oppression to which