The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-31 00:00:00

. 1. / -- r" I meat thian it would probably have expelieoced had it been i n ' , lppon of Reform - instead of being against it. 'I he ATTORNEY-GENERAL would yield to no Gentlemen present in respect fur the Onivcrsity of Cambridge, and it was therefore must unfair to interpret any of his observations as in the least degree disrespectful to that learned and venerab:e body. He had, moreover, a right to complain of certain allusions which had been made to his conduct at a former period of his public life; but he owed no apology to any one for the course that he had pursued upon the trying and melancholy occasion so needlessly referred to.—(Hear, hear.)—Personalities, it Was true, had been uttered ; but his most painful duty to his unfortunate and much-injured client rendered such personalities unavoidable. But since this unhappy subject had now been invidiously obtruded on the notice of the House, he would not shrink from declaring, that an illus trious individual whom it would be unparliamentary more partictilarly to allude to, bad in his person given more &gnat example of generous magnanimity than history had ever recorded of any sovereign since the time of Henry V., when that high-minded and chivalrous monarch presented the sword and balance to the Chief Justice who had per sonally offended him.—(Cheers.) Mr. ATTWOOD, in explanation, had only stated that the Attorney -General had employed inflammatory language which might be productive of the most injurious conse quences in the present excited state of the public mind. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could by no means admit that the public mind was in a state of excitement which the Hon. Member described, although, certainly, attempts had been tnade to inflame it.—(Hear.) Mr. H. TWISS supported the petition. Sir J. SEI3RIGHT took occasion to allude to the sup posed probability of a dissolution of Parliament, but the Hon. Baronet was very imperfectly heard in the gallery. Mr. G. PRICE should have no desire to sit in that House after the passing of a Bill which would destroy the Constitution. Sir R. Vl' VYAN referred to the recent rumours of an approaching dissolution, and animadt;erted on the decla ration of an Hon. Member, that it was the undoubted pre rogative of the King, in such an event, to issue ❑o writs for certain boroughs which at present enjoyed the right of returning Members. He could not, however, for a moment believe it possible that Ministers would presume to advise his Majesty to adopt such a monstrous alternative, after their recent experience of the result of an unconstitutional interference with the right of election in the neighbouring kingdom. The Hon. Baronet concluded by charging the Noble Lord who was now Chancellor of the Exchequer with inconsistency, iu having last session voted that the distress of the people was general and not partial, whereas he had subs, queue!) , opposed a motion for a select Com mittee to inquire into the causes of that general distress. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had op. Posed the Committee alluded to from a conviction that it would not promote an aHeviation of the distress which he acknowledged to have existed. It was intended to inquire into a variety of subjects, and amongst others to investigate the currency question, any agitation of which he had no doubt would increase the an:ount of public suffering, in stead of mitigating or removing it.—(Hear). Mr. G. R. DAWSON said that the menace of a disco. lotion was a most offensive attempt to intimidate Members, for the purpose of deterring them from the discharge of their duty. Ministers might as well say to Parliament " We despise your opinions, fur we shall soon have an op portunity of kicking you out of the House."---(Laughter.) Sir J. SEBRIGHT explained. Sir G. MURRAY said the Hon. Baronet and the other advocates of the measure seemed to overlook the great ar gument which those who called out fur still further changes in existing institutions than those which that measure would effect, extensive as they were, would derive from the fact that such a measure had been passed by a Parliament professing to act in obadience to the wishes of the people. If, in this instance, a House of Commons not chosen fur the purpose should effect such important changes in our representative system, a fortiori a House of Commons chosen under those changes shoulego much farther in yield ing to the most extensive demands of their constituents. Mr. TWISS—I wish to know from the Hon. Baronet how he would vote, should it be proposed to disfranchise the county Which he represented, or raaluce its Members to One, the principle of disfranchisement (wing the same as in those boroughs which the Bill he supported went to de prive of their Members ? Sir J. SEBRIGHT—Most decidedly I would oppose the proposition.—(" Hear," front the Opposition.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, begged leave to say, that what he had said touching the King's prerogative extending tis the power of omitting to send writs to places returning Members to Parliament, had been misunder stood. At present all writs were sent in the King's name; and though he had his doubts whether his Majesty con stitutionally possessed the power of omitting to send writs to every place which may have returned 'Members, he had no doubt of the improbability, amounting to an impossibi lity, that such a coup d'etat would even be bad resort to. He was inclined to think the King did possess that power, it certainly was exercises in ancient periods of our history, and had not been formally curtailed ; but, as he had said, need not be apprehended. By the Bill the power thus formerly exercised would be defined and exercised by an act of the legislature. Mr. 11. GURNEY was one of those who saw no reason why the two Universities should not have the power of returning clergymen to repres e nt th e i r i n t erests i n t h at }louse, if they felt that members of th it body would be their most fitting representatives. The Act by which clergymen were excluded, it was well known, was aimed individually at the celebrated Horne Tooke, and might he repealed now that the circumstances of the times were so much changed. The Hon. and Learned Attorney-General was in error as to the constitution a l law with reference to the King's power to omit sending writs to places returning !Members to Parliament ; fur in the times of James I. the Ho u se passed a resolution declaratory of the fact that he pos sessed no such power ; and since that time no attempt had bee n made on the part of the Crown to asset t tli,:t right. Sir H. HARDINGE said, that the borough which be represented possessed more voters under burgage tenure at present than at the Revolution ; and, therefore, would cont e nd, that to deprive it now of its two Members would be to violate the corporate rights established and guaranteed in 16S8. Mr. HUME was not surprised that the Bight Hon. !t . epr esentat i ves of the twenty-seven burgage tenures cf Newport should he opposed to measures which went to put an end to such a mockery of representation ; but he teat p ut i t to the common sense of the House whether !lac system was defensible under which twenty-seven bur_ gage tenures should have the power of returning two Aletubers to that House, while the large and pipulous to wns of Birmingham and Manchester hail no represen ttahtives?—(llear.)—Hon. M e mber s rang t h e c h anges on e danger of innovating upon the Constitution, as if the paramount excellence of the English Constitution were not its facility of accommodating itself to the changes ' v h 4, h time and circumstances effect in all human insti tutions, and as if, in fact, every new Act of Parliament I V" not pro tanto a change in the Constitution.--(Hear.) Air. HOY felt himself called upon to offer a few obser vations against , the Ministerial plan of Reform. He had listened to the several speeches which had been delivered °o both s id e s of the question in silence, but now s h ou ld '74 mere listener no longer. " Server ego auditor tan ;‘,44, nunipianine reponanr ?" His first objection to the d i was founded on its great disfranchisement principle, b y which not only the pourer classes but the very highest `of:l4'4l he deprived of the power of voting for Metnbers of 4r iiatuent. Of the borough honour representing, which he had the ' , Presenti ng , hi s p re s e nt Majesty was a freeman, and ) ,: f e c t could not ten d er hi s vo t e , as the present Bill lapped ii all non-resident voters, of which his Majesty was one. e a lso übjected to the Bill on account of the glaring in conais,,wy e „ ' of its provisions . Its advocates assert that it A vv Y- "‘ hilt to restore to the people their just rights ; but that pe 4 : l ,l,, fl LeY, for that House hail akn no rights front the th e :dm' therefore hail none to restore to them. Besids., b y t r Bill . did not grant tile people asked for, judging I what the} 'asked f,, le 'r petitions, 280 (out of 600 altogether, presented bye-rethe introduction of the Bill) of which were for vote a n d shallo,,c reduction of taxes, :aid the abolition of tithes oq e '', o u!es. Did Minist.ers Franceshut t a li , e ) i , i i i l e 3 y e e lg s i z , al o e , via , , it , t the democracy in . . cou t 4 i .i2"'Pared to fake - the latetafiroonce,editniges fe rr a i re t , l i i o a st s ! mad, '' w , a nuidel th e :sli, itil nen he recoll f e o e i t . eirt r he t emphatic'the early period of the ° Chancellor of the Exchequer in . declaration of of d'el,,,,Pitlre,ent session, in favour of the triN-toieutiLeoiritiibtlieiant) the't Pr t .„: 1()11 . but they were told by the .1 in t ,;4tuet measure would be c onervativ . e l n s w e , .'t • C . ". Conservative, indeed, which o B q : It Iv kn ock off sixty-three Members der fatmou.nee:sii:l:llolisliegl.) of that House. ita ; 4 ti. 4 evident that Ministers did not themselves un :,,, l ' s ; t t , Q, ;I:Pidrineiple and ' tendency of their own Ine: su !. y e : s° 0' 4 to their guidance would Le only to ot ( 4, 1 , the bli nd le,- •blind,and both falling Into v e lai,,_ , t i ling the , o ' tile' k ,"e for one would not be so led : he saw b.e.- 'ern . the ,' 01, 1 „t' l ei l t ," a ''n ; and, like the heroic Roman a old . : frcoN e into it to save the Constitution of his country ma • tO tel t ' n • ' er,,,13i1i - N i „ rHORPE was a reformer, a real conseien trit w,,1 1 , 1 1. ) but had voted against the second reading, 0 , o,fraak t n. ‘ v ould continue his opposition to it, so long. th at hylii,:uePriv e a l arge portion of his constituents of IV -c to 4 . 4 , r ights the at resent enoyed. It was true is gturnt s ha y d expressed their approbation of the Bill whet first promulgated in that House, but he was sure they would not continue to favour it when better ac quainted with its provisions. At present there were 1,233 voters in Lincoln, but by this great franchise extending Bill that numher would be reduced to 434 voters—(Hear, bear)—lnd by the freehold provision the county electors would also be diminished, In the same way Grimsby, which at present possessed 324 voters, would by the Bill he deprived of one Member, and would have but 94 electors.—(Hear.) In opposing the Bill, therefore, he felt he was consulting the interests of the people at large as a real reformer. Mr. R. GRANT considered the present petition as one of great importance, as expressing the decided opinion of a mutt important and enlightened body, proverbially slow to propose any change in existing institutions in favour of the principle of Reform.—(Hear.) The petitioners, it was true, did not ger the length of the Bill, but neither did they go the length of its opponents, and between both extremes chose the middle ground of moderate Reform.— This declaration of the petitioners, joined with the una nimous sentiment of the veriest opponent of the Govern ment measure in favour of some Reform, was a highly im portant feature of the times, and augured well for the speedy success of that measure.—(Hear.) He would ask the moderate reformers, who grounded their hostility to the Bill on the assumption that to grant it would he only opening the door to mote extensive popular demands, whether their r,r, , itment did not apply with increased force to their own less yielding proposition?—(Hear.) If, after granting much, they would still be asked far more, surely to grant little would not be the way to check the demand of the public.—(Hear.) The Hen. and Learned Gentle man proceeded then to say, with reference to a declara tion of the noble Chancellor of the Exchequer a few nights since, that but one or two petitions, the result of public meetings, had been presented against the Bill, while numberless petitions bad been presented in favour of it; that be had himself presented a petition from the city of Norwich, signed by upwards of seven thousand of the adult male population, highly approving of the Government measure, which would have been still more numerously signed had time been allowed ; and that no petition against the measure had been pre sented fram Norwich as the result of a public meeting, as had been stated. Since be had heard the lust assertion, he had inquired into the matter, and had learned that so far from a public meeting having agreed to a petition against the Bill, the opposite was the fact. The gay be fore yesterday a meeting was convened, by a public printed notice, of the Mayor and corpora'ion of Norwich, at the Guildhall, to, among other matters, petition against the Bill ; but the respectable Tory gentleman who was to mave the petition, so far from going on with his motion, moved its adjournment, and his proposition was seconded and supported by the leaders—most respectable gentlemen —of the Tory party, without any comment or opposition on the part of their opponents, thereby yielding to what they felt to be the unananimous sense of the meeting. The petition was then ordered to be printed. Lord I'ALMERSTON next presented a petition from the bachelor graduates of the University of Cambridge, highly approving of the Ministerial plan of Reform. On the question that it be pt - Sir R. VI( VYAN rose to say, that he wished it to be distinetly understood that the Attorney-General had in his place stated it to be law that the King could omit sending writs to any boroughs be thought fit to deprive of the right of returning 111embers.—(u Hear," and " No.") The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had only to repeat, that the Bill went to effect by an Act of Porliatuent whit the Crown formerly accompilshe.l by the exercise of its pre rogative. Mr. 11. GURNEY would still contend that the King possessed no such power, imd that since the reign of Richard 11. thsr'e was but one instance of intermission of a writ to u place returning Menikrs. Mr. WY NN entirely agreed with the Hen. Member for Norwich ; for, as he had correctly stated, a resolution was passed in Parliament of James 1., drawn up and sup ported by some of the highest names in our constitutional history, declaratory of the const , tutional principle that the Crown did not possess the power of omitting to send writs to places enjoying the right of representation—(Hear)— and since that declaration of the constitutional law, the King had never' attempted to assert the possession of such a power—(Hear)—and writs had been accordingly issued to, among other places, the borough which returned Hampden.—(Hear.) An HON. MEmnnit, whose name we could not learn, said that the statement of the Attorney-General had been misunderstood. All the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said was, that the Crown had exercised the pow,r of omit ting to send writs to places returning Members in an early period of our Parliamentary history, and that the powei• should only be exercised wider a statute of the Legislature in future. Mr M. FITZGERALD conSidered the question 'then mooted as one of too Serious importance to the independ ence and privileges of that House, to be merely glanced at on presenting a petition.—(Hear.) If, as the law-officer of the Crown had stated, the King possessed the power of withholding writs at his pleasure, it was evident that such an unconstitutional influence might be exercised to the de struction of the rights and independence of the House of Commons, and, through it, of the people at large, of which they were the representatives.—(Hear, bear.) It was highly e xp e di en t, th en, t h a t a q u e stion of such corr al importance should not be lightly passed over, but should be placed beyond doubt by the law autliori tiea.—( Hoar.) Mr. CAPEL considered the petition then before the House was one founded on a delusion of the public mind respecting the measure of Mmisters. That measure was generally hailed as a get at franchise extending one, while it in fact was one of wholesale disfranchisement, as many of its present supporters would soon find to their cost. Sir C. WETIIERELL wished to know in distinct terms what the doctrine of his Hon. and Learned Friend (th e Attorney-General) was on the great constitutional point,—whether the Crown had or had not the power of omitting to send writs to places returning Members to that House ? That was not the proper time for discussing so important a constitutional question, so be would not then condescend to state his views on it. But it was important that it should nut go forth to the public, and that, too, as a strange postscript to two petitions from die Doctors and Bachelors of the University of Cambridge, that in the opinion of the King's law-officer, as he understood his Iron. and Learned Friend, the Crown did possess the power, and therefore might exercise it, according to the advice of its adyi•era, of withdrawing writs from places at present returning Members to that House.- 7 -(Hear.) He main tained that such a power was a usurpation of the privileges of Parliament, and therefore called upon his lion. and Learned Friend to state, in express and direct termln his doctrine on the subject.—(Hear.) Mr. SAILER also considered it right that there should be a clear understanding as to whether the King hail or bad not constitutionally, the power of omitting to send writs to all places returning Members to that House. If such were the doctrine of the law advisers, it was evident that the rights, and independence, and utility of that House were in fearful jeopardy.—(Hear.) Sir 11. VYVYAN could not refrain from expressing also his sense of the dangerous consequences of the doc trine of the Hon. arid Learned Attorney-General. lie did not expect an immediate dissolution, because he thought that Ministers knew too well that a new Parliament would be still more hostile to them than the present, that ithe boroughs which they proposed to disfranchise would t r m ln u nsed to them to a man, and as the late election for not be safe to increase the exci nry of Clare showed that Ireland was in such a fer ment on the repeal of the Union question, that would In a new Parliament Al, iisters te t En vo e u u l t d o n f i a it I m i v a s t s‘ e . e to lee' i t i i r °' ,; . 7se they would doubtless lie " their measure, to fight for their places, whence i rs\eit in the event of a dissolu tion.—( Hear, and a la u e i j , e i actuated by any factions opposition to the present Adtni- In saying this he was not nistrn, but by a sense of thei- li a i. ! , ( !"tY, which he would ever assert, be who may d ir:ter ; and he hoped he should never again see the Ministry must have recourse to an excitement Jtl ." r •l'''" a their only means of retaining offi ce . mt e ,. P u l blic mind ns The petition was ordered to be printed,'"./ Li•ni G. L. GOWER presented a petit' Abraham Bradley King, praying that his ern "11 Sir had bi en agreed to by the late Administration, anenroftjuilt:t. ich taken iroo con-ideration. Iht The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ed, printed. on the part of Goveintoent, to the petition being After a few ohservations from Mr. RUTIIVEN and 111 ( r. DAwsori, the petition was read, and ordered to be ADJOURNNIENT. On the tnotion of the CHANCELLOR of the Ex_ CHEQUER, it was resolved that the House, at its r* • rsiN, do adjourn till Tuesday, the 12th of April. Tile further considtration of the report of the Commit tee on p,Tuniary penalties was postponed to April 12. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the house resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. Sir It. HAPxDINGE inquired if it was inteaded, at that time of night, to go through the whole of the Ord u:ince Estimates ? Mr. TENNYSON said he should proceed with them as far as he could to-night SPANISH REFUGEES AT GIBRALTAR. Mr. G. PRICE wished to ask, first, whether the Noble • Lord bad given any directions for removing from the for r.:ss of Gibraltar persons residing there as Spanish re fugees, who had been far a long period harboured there, and who bad abused its neutrality? Secondly, whether he had any objection to lay On the table of the Heuse the correspondence between the gallant officer who com manded at Gibraltar and the Spanish authorities, as to the violation of the neutrality by those persons. Th e Hon. Member observed, that from the commencement of last summer there had been meetings by persons in this country, Paris, an d Brussels, to raise disturbances in th e territories o f th e Ki ng of Spain,—a King de jure an d d e facto, and who had an accredited Minister at our Court. He contended that this was a violation of the law of na tione, which was the common law of Europe, and the safeguard of the weak to assist the strong. He wished for the correspondence between the Governor of Gibral tar and the Spanish authorities, in order to ascertain whether the gallant officer had exercised a sufficient de giee of vigilance. Lord PALMERSTON said, that in the first place the relations between this country and Spain were those of perfect friendship and understanding; and it was the de sire of his Majesty's Government to preserve those rela• tinny, as mutaally conducive to the interests of both c iuntries. His Majesty's Government would have been liable to some censure if they had connived at, much less encouraged, any attempt to disturb the tranquillity of Spain. No such blame, however, attached to his Ma jesty's Government. They had learned with regret the event which the Hon. Member had alluded to, that in January last a number of Spanish refugees, whose num bers had been greatly exaggerated, since they amounted only to thirty-four, had proceeded front Gibraltar to at tack the Spanish lines. This attempt, so far from being connived at by the gallant officer who commanded at Gi braltar,—so far from it receiving the slightest countenance from him, or being occasioned by any want of precau tion on his • part,—he had, not ten days before, prevented a similsr attack, in consequence of information he had received, and had afforded every opportunity to the Spanish authorities to meet the attack. The attack Lad failed ; the refugees engaged in it were received in the garrison as prisoners, and were placed in confinement, and the others were compelled to quit Gibraltar. All persons of this description were required to depart, and there was not one now remaining in the garrison. It was a standing regulation of the fortress, that no foreigner of any description should be permitted to reside there with out the specific permission of the Secretary for the Co lonies : the Governor could only give a temporary per m'ssion. In consequence of this attempt to disturb the tranquillity of Spain, the Governor had been directed to put this regulation in force. Mr. FITZGEEiALD confirmed the statement of the Noble Lord. RELIEF OF IRELAND.-ISSUE OF EXCUIE- QUER BILLS. After some conversation, as to the course of business, between Mr. DAwsoN, the CHANCELLOR of the Excua- TUER, Sir li. HARDINGE. and Mr. HUME, the House re solved itself into a Committee of Supply. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that it was necessary for him to detail the principle of the measure which lie was about to propose to the House. The House was aware of the vast numbers of the labouring poor of Ireland who were out of employment. It was must extraordinary, that in a country with such a fertile soil as Ireland, where capital could be roost advantageously applied, it should he wanting, particularly when capital was so abundant here. So it was, however, and the ob ject of the House should be to take steps'to pro Mote the transfer of capita. to Iceland. It might he said that it was contrary to • principle for Government to advance money in aid of that object,—thit if capital could-be pro , - fitably employed, capital would be 'attracted there. 'But? front the experience they had had, it war evident this *A5' not the ease in respect' to Ireland, at `least to• -any extirit, though he admitted that capital was inerasing•there. 'Un's der these circumstances, he did not knoWilrat it was-Cona • trary to principle for GovernmentittOtiVetolierlitAby;tiit.' aid of the legislatUre, or - artificiateapitaf. Herlid nOt the country should be taxed to giVe that capital—that would be unjust a but he did not propose this. His object Waseel that the security of this country should be given -to raise' the sum necessary, to enable Ireland • to call its-iiiirgieS into action. Ile admitted that'-the 'measure . i•iqUirettP great caution in order to prevent- 'misapprehension.- One] great danger -which might be apprehended was, that the application of this money would h e to o muc h acte d upon I by local - influence, and that therefrom would result great abuses, which would not arise if the money was kept tinder the controul of Government. • He was of opinion that such controul was n cessary, in -order to secure the (Inc application of the money. But while he thought it essen tial that 'the controul of the Government should be placed in the hands of the Government, he, at the saute time, thought that local knowledge was necessary to direct the application of the various some. There was one thing to be carefully guarded against—that nothing like party or political feelings should interfere in the application of the !now.) , —( Hear.) What was most of all to be avoid e d was; that political feelings should eontroul the applicatio n of any part of the money which Parliament should vote. These were the principles upon which his Majesty's - 11 Ii• sisters had prepared a plan for the application of the sum, and he would state shortly the heads of the plan which they intended to propose in the shape of a Bill. AS be was not at present going to propose the Bill, it would not be necessary to enter minutely into the details. He would however, state as much as would make the Committe e compteitend the object of Government. It was proposed that the money should be applied through the agency of a commission, appointed, not by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but by the Treasury in London. The commission was to have the power of disposing of the money to be voted, and it was proposed that the commission should ab sorb the existing powers of the Commissioners of Public Works, of Inland Navigation, of the Board of Works in Dub lin, and also the power of the Postmaster-Geueral of Ire land, which enabled him to direct the repair and improve ment of post roads. The C tmmissioners were to be paid certain salaries. lie considered such an arrangement very important, for, without it, the Government would not have that controul over them which was necessary. A t the saute time, no additional expence would be imposed on the country thereby ; because • as the proposed commis sion was to occupy the places of those other commission s which he had jest mentioned, and for the maintenance of which the public money was now applied, not only no ad ditional expence would be incurred, but a saving, if any thing, would result to the country. The Comtnissioners, as lie had stated before, were to he entirely subject to the controul of the Treasury in London. They were to have no communication with the local Government of Ireland, but were to communicate directly with the Treasury. They would be bound to make reports at stated periods; and in order to prevent any works beiog, commenced in consequence of improper local influence, the Com missioners would not be allowed to undertake any new work,' without the approbation and sanction of the "t:io• vernment in England being first obtained. When the Commissioners took into consideration the applications made to them from which they were to select those to be referred to the Trtasury in London, he considered that their object ought to be to take into consideration first of all the public benefits likely to result from the proposed works, next the immediate employment of the labouring popula tion, and the probable effect which the undertaking of the works would have ett the future employment of the people— that is to say, whether the proposed works would tend to the increase employment in the districts in which they were undertaken --(Hear, hear.) Above all things they aught to see that good security was given for the money advanced. The present loan of money was not proposed on the same principle as former loans had been—namely, th it when the money was repaid to Government, the fund should cease. Ile intended that the money, when repaid to the Commissioners, should form a fund for the improve ment of Iteland, for a lung period of time, and that the intere•t of the money would lie constantly rep a id to Go- Velnuivnt. The inch it: which he proposed to raise the money was by the issue of Exchequer -bills. The Com missioners would have to report all their proceedings to the Treasury in London ; and their report would he annually laid before Parliament. They would also have to enact for themselves s•rict rules, which would be submitted to Parliament for alteration and improvement. The money would be lent on the security of freehold property, of county rates, and of tolls. In every ease of private secu rity, the security must be real, and consequently no risk of loss would be incurred. Hitherto no loss had been experi enced; for the money lent had always been r e p a id, w ith ad . vantage and benefit to the country ; and even in case of money being advaneed in the way' of gift, the revenue had amply been benefitted by the transaction. Under these circumstances, lie herd that when the time came for him to propose the adoption of the measure, no material objet toms Would b e be tak en to i t . B ut t h e Committee moist nature, be time, , aotuolldof hec on c s o id n e , r u a , b r l e e d lel i i i g t i p li ;ssin Cgon ite awar e , t h a t .a Bil l to effect the object he had in view must he o e f q a u e complicated)a tU!' through the House ; and, befor e it could take effect, the time most requiring its application in Ireland would be passed. Ile therefore thought himself justified ro posina to the House to vote a smaller grant, a I • P be applied at the present time in Ireland. v ,tr t right mittee was probably aware that the months during . which P was most wanted in Ireland were the latter end of April, May, June, and the commencement of July. I Now if. the Haase were to wait until the ptoposed 831 was passed, which, according to ordinary calculation, could not be before the end of May, the season most requiring relief to be afforded to Ireland would be past before any could be applied, and that at a time when it was said, and truly said, that the country was suffering under a state of great distress. He therefore thought it necessary that same immediate steps should be taken ; and this consideration induced him to come. down to that House and propose a resolution before the holydays. It might be said, that by now proposing the resolution he would not be effecting the object he had in view, because the resolution could not he reported until after the recess. But it should be considered, that it would be impossible to get the _ proposed system into operation without previous nquiry ; and that if the Committee agreed to the resolution, the Irish Government would then be enabled to receive applications for the loan of the money, and to make the necessary invest4,ation. He had already „.. _ •itated, that be considered it most essential that the com-. ruission, when established, should he entirely separated from the Irish Government. He conceived that there would be great objections to allowing the local Govern ment to have any connexion with th e ma tt er ; b ut h e did not think that objection would apply to a temporary mea sure, because it was necessary to get it into work in such time as would make the relief which was proposed to be given effectual. He therefore intended to move that 50,000/. should be raised by the issue of Exchequer-bills, and put under the disposal of the Lord Lieutenant of Ire land, but with the same restrictions as would be placed upon the commission to be ultimately established; that is to say, the Lord Lieutenant should not have the power to undertake any work without the sanction of the Treasury in London. The disposal of the money would be under the controul of the Treasury,—not from want of confidence in the Noble Lord at the head of affairs in Ireland, but because he thought it desirable that whatever restrictions were to be ultimately determined on, should be adopted at the first outset. It was not his intention that any assess ments should be made in Ireland, but that the money should be lent en freehold security, on the security of the county rates, and of tolls. The Noble Lord concluded by moving, that his Majesty be authorized to direct the issue of Exclie• quer-bills or to advance - a sum of money out of the con solidated fund, to an amount not exceeding 50,0001., to be applied for purposes of local and temporary relief in Ireland, eta sufficient security being given for the re-pay ment of the same. Mr. WYSE said the state in which Ireland was could not long continue without producing a total disorganiz tine. There was scarcely one county in a wholesome con dition ; and there were many on the verge of insurrection. The great evil of Ireland was the want of employment ; and that had occasioned a continued series of servile wars of 'the poor against the rich. The Hon. Member then went into a variety of calculations with the view of show ing that any money applied to the improvement of Ireland would be amply repaid by the increase of the revenue of the country. No money, he said, could be more bene ficial:y applied than for the purpose of opening roads and improving the inland navigation of the'country. No less than thirty rivers might he rendered navigable, and a com munication established along a territory a thousand miles 'in extent. A great part of the western coast of Mayo was completely itre, while the people were perishing with want. The inhabitants of the place dare not to go opt to fish, because there were no piers to agrd shelter to their boats ; and actually the fishermen from Dublin, who had larger boats, had the Monopoly of the fishery. die thought re public money could not be better applied than in building a harbour at that place. With respect to the al k e d st,ees, he knew no way of compelling them to return tolheir estates,_ unless by the imposition of a heavy rat e oh' theil'Propetty. 'But of this he was" convinced, that feltbeir 'Absentees must be co:Ripened . reside on their estates, -nr s tise some meausAmost be takeu.to benefit the peasantry. fle..bad inteuded • ,pose the appoi n tm e nt o f a b oar d o f ;PO& works i 'lid the establishment of a Cotu . i Akin c .o communicate with the Board irf Worksivliut .. , ould support :the plan of Govern inerttptfar as it went, and leservc: his proposition for a ft~tur period. - . SADLER said that no adequate relief could be trVlreland by:a measure of the description of the one :Proposed, and he hardly knew whether or not to give -it his ,uppoliation. He thought some measure ought to be taken to compel the culpable alscutees to support the poor in laland, arid until the House adopted some moderate systeAs of poor laws for that country, be did not think it wookt , haiT done its duty. He urged Ministers to pro teed 4a,more decided course. Coro - net TYRELL said be pledged himself to his con stituents to advocate retrenchment and economy; and he wished to know, from the Noble Lord opposite, whether, considering the sufferings of the por of this country, he should act consistently with his promise if he supported the present vote for 50,000/. He hoped the Noble Lord would take the distreies of the people of this country into consideration. Mr. O'BRIEN was of opinion .that the Government greatly deceived themselves if they imagined that by the advance 'of this money they would afford any permanent relitf tOlreland. To assist that country effectually they must ut.„l / tst•come to a qualified system of poor laws. Sir R I WILSON sail that the adoption of a well-regu latetFtem of poor laws was the best thing that could be done for Ireland. • Mr. GKATTAN was quite satisfied that some plan of poor I ,ws must be carried into effect with ;espect to Ire land. Pert anent good could he effected by no other means, Mr. G.DAWSON gave the Government credit for an anxious deSire to do full justice to Ireland ; but still he considered the present proposition as a complete delusion (and he did,rot mean to use the expression in an offensive sense) on the people of Ireland. He objected, whether the sum to be granted was fifty thousand pounds or five hundred thousand Rounds, to have it placed under a Board of Cmninissipners, because he believed that a system of jobbing woull be the inevitable result. The great ques tion was, lunv the poor of Ireland could be raised from their present deplorable state of destitution to one of de cency and respectability ? Having considered the subject much, he had come to this conviction, that unless some system of poor laws were adopted, their situation could nut be permanently ameliorated.—(Hear, hear.) He be lieved that machinery could tie found in Ireland quite suf ficient for carrying such a plan into effect.—(Hear.) _ . Mr. STANLEY defended the Government Iron the charge that this proposition had been brought forward for the purpose of obtaining a temporary popularity in Ire land. The Right Hon. Member for Harwich had depre ciated the report of the Committee of last Session which had been drawn up by his Hon. Friend the Memher for Limerick, but he (Mr. Stanley) would maintain that it ryas er and masterly document. the a Ri eery ' rad s a id, that of th e ni ne t een , r t. . c o G r e n i t: t r l e e l l t r e e n n s‘ i i Bills recommended in that report, none had been brought forward by the Government. Now several of those Bills had been already introduced, and several had been prepared and would have been introduc e d before this time but for the imp) taut measure which now almost exclusively engrossed the attention of the House He (Mr. Stanley)would not pledge himself against the introduction of any species of poor laws into Ireland, but,not intending to enter upon that ques tion at present, he should content himself with saying, that he had never known any measure of that kind, as yet p e p. which did not appear to him to be calcu lated to ha attended by results that would countet balance any advanta;es which might he derived from it. He was sure that this proposition would he accepted with grati tude in Ireland by persons who had opportunities for em ploying capital to advantage there, but who did not pos sess the means of doing so without the assistance of Go. vernment. It had been said, that if money should be advanced in this way, it would never be repaid to the Governm - nt. Now several sums had been already ad vanced in a similar way for similar purposes in Ireland, and such had nut btom the case; ant he held it) his hand a statement, horn which it appeared ,!hat of the 500 0001. which had been advanced to Ireland in 1522, both of principal and interest, there remained only 15,0001. not r e paid. The advance which it was proposed to make in the pros nt instance would be only a fair advance of money which any private capitalist would make upon equally good security. It appeared from the report, of the Committee of last Session, that the most beneficial effects had re ,•ulted from the advancer which had been already made front time to time for the carrying on of public works in the southwestern districts of Ireland ; and he was con fident that the advance which it le as now proposed to make, was calculated both to relieve distress and to increase the revenue, as had been the ease in the former instance. Mr. GOULBURN did not believe that this sum of 50,000/. would at all go to the extent which was antici pated towards alleviating the distress which existed at pre sent in some districts in Ireland. Mr. M. FITZGERALD said, that so far as this mea• sure went, it should have his complete concurrence ; and if a compulsory assessment had been also proposed, he should he most willing to give his assent to it. The Right lion. Gentleman then went on to contend, that if the pro prietors of land in the distressed districts did not consent to charge themselves with the Jclittf of the poor in the vicinity, they would disgrace themselves. Mr. T. P. COURTENAY hoped the'Nohle Lord opposite would give an en-1y opportunity for the discussion of the motion of the Hon. Mensber for Ennis, for making some provision for the poor of that country by legislative enact mrot. Unless some compulsory means of relief were alapted, no tamp3raty measure of this kind woul 1 be effectual. Colonel TRENCH feared that if money were to be lent out only to borrowers upon adequate security, it would not answer the end in view. Immediate relief was what was wanted An immediate application of relief would alone be effectual Mr. ATT WOOD deprecated a discussion on the ques. tion of providing security for the insignificant advance of 50,000/. at a moment when distress existed which re quired immediate relief. He would not believe that the propc,ed sum was intemle,l to coact popularity ; but he must say that it would be inadequee for the relief of tie distress which existed. Mr. D. BROWNE regrAted to find that some Hon. Members should attempt to throw cold water on a propo sition of this kind, and talk of a poor law at a time when instant assistance was required If they wished to avert all the horrors of famine in several parts of the country, particularly the district of Erris, to nhich be had before called the attention of the House, they should give imme diate and gratuitous assistance. Mr. LEADER regretted that when the Right Hon. Member for Armagh stated the advantage of the course he hiMself had adopted, he had not recommended the aloption of a similar course for the relief of the present distress. A loan of 50,000/. might do some good, but it was useless to disguise the fact that that sum would not relieve the country to the extent it required. England had gain,d by the loans she ha I made in this way to Ire land; she liiirrowed money at 31 per cent,. and she lent in Ireland at 5 per cent. interest, besides a repayment of 5 per cent. of the principal ; and she also gained by it in the increased stimulus it gave to Irish industry, which always re-acted ben •ficially on this country. He was sorry that the present Secretary for Ireland did not follow the example of his predecessors in office, one of whom (Sir R. Peel), when he found 25 banks there on the eve of ruin, advanced a sum of public money which pre vented that ruin. The money was reps d, and tl.e loan was an advantage to both countries. However grateful he felt for the proposed advance, he looked upon it only as a temporary !Leasure. It might allay for a time, but coultl not cure the evils of Ireland, one of the greatest of which was the desolating evil of absenteeism. The war of poverty against property had already commenced. It was not as heretofore the war of political or religious opinions, but the war of gaunt famine leading to desperation and striving for food. After a few observations from General HART, which were not audible in the gallery, Sir J. BURKE did not think the project would he useful to Ireland, because, even where the proper security could be given, the country g entlemen would not be agreed as to the application of the funds. In former grants tie case was different, because persons were appointed to apply them. The motion was then put and carried. The House re sumed, and the report was ordered to he received on Tues day the 12th of April. A number of petitions were then received—several for Reform, and others for the abelitiosi of slavery ; after which the other Orders of the Day were disposed of and at Three o'clock the House adjourned to Tuesday the 12th of April. SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS. A conversation sprupg, up in the House of Lords last night, which presented two or three remarkable features. A sort of hint (we suppose we must not call it a threat) VVai thrown out by Lord Farnham, which we will give in his Lordship's %voids, as con tained in our report : " This measure of Reform was not at all wanted, and the effect of it would he to send forty or fifty representa tiveS from Ireland to Parliament, who would be the mere nominees of the agitators, and the inevitable result would be the attainment of the objects which those agitators had in view,—namely, the repeal of the Union, the destrtu of the Protestant church, and the establishment of Catholic ascendancy in Ireland. If the Protestants of Ireland once saw that their interests were deserted by the united Parliament, the consequence would be, that they would unite heart and hand with the Catholics for the repeal of the Union ; and that if they did, they would and must carry it. They might talk of force, but, under such circurnstances, the people of Ireland would laugh at the threat.. He would tell them, that the united force of England would not, and could nut, put down a brave, united, and detertnined people." This threat circumstantial, but hint direct, was repelled with great animation and force by the Lord Chancellor and Earl Grey, the latter of whom in ose plain sentence put down ull the cant which is now so rife about the alleged unconstitutionality of the Reform Bill, by stating wlrat the Constitution really is,- 4 , He contended that the boroughs were not only not a part of the Constitution,. but that they were derogatory from the principles of the Constitution—nay, contrary to the principles of the Constitutior.—(Hear, hear.) The Constitution was founded upon representation, not on no mination." This plain truth, tittered with simple enet, the effect of magic, and the Duke of Buckingr, eagerly started forward to " denounce the disgrace ful traffic of sews in Parliament ;"—that traffic which, as Lord Goderich pertinently and forcibly remarked, had been eulogized elsewhere,* as one of the most valuable attributes of the Constitution. This is a great point gained, for as the soft Dean never mentioned hell to ears polite, so, in the House of Commons, a most sacred horror has been felt of directly using such a phrase as the " sale of bo roughs." It has been well remarked by that saga cious observer of human nature, Mrs. Slip-Slop, that some people's ears a:e the most delicate parrs about them : and we have seen worthy Members who have dealt in seats all their lives ready to swoon when the practice was called by irs right name. We are grateful, therefore, to the Duke of Buckingham, for speaking out, with straightforward manliness and indignation, against the base and profligroe conduct of the buyeis and sellers of seats in Parliament. In the House of Commons, after some conversation on the report of the Committee on the salaries of public officers (not yet published), Lord Palmerston pre sented the Cambridge petition : a long and animated disclis , iun followed, during which Mr. W. Ba•.kes, " con la boeca dace," seemed to anticipate a morsel which, however, we prophesy his lips are not destined to touch. We suspect that his Alnza Mater has no great sympathy with his longings. But let us pass from the amusing, trifling of the Member for Marl borough to the noble candour of the Attorney- General. That Learned Member having Leen grus•ly attacked by Mr. Attwood, for his conduct during the trial of the late unhappy and ill-used Queen of Eng land, replied in the following strait; : "Personalities, it was true, - had been uttered; but his most painful duty to his unfortunate and much-injured client ren:iered such personalities unavoidable. But since this unhappy subject hail now b:en invidiously obtruded on the notice of the House, he would not slnink from declaring, that an illustrious individual, whom it would he unparliamentary more particularly to allude to, had in his person given a more signal emarnide of generous mag nanimity than history had ever recoMed of any Sovereign since the time of Henry V., when that high-minded and chivalrous Monarch presented the sword and balance to the Chief Justice who had personally offended him"— (Cheers.) Nothing can be more manly than this mode of ex pressing himself, and most gLidly do we avail our selves of this opportunity of adding our tribute of sincere and respectful admiration fee the genuine and almost unexampled greatness of mind evinced by the Royal personage alluded to. From a mind so unaf fectedly generous, so unfeignedly noble, nothing but truth and honour can emanate. With what utter scorn, then, may we repel the insinuations of those %A. , bastly attempt to throw doubts on that confid ing frankness and kindness with which he has uni formly treated his Ministers. Never was there a cicser union between a King and his Ministers than that subsisting between King William and the Ca binet of Earl Grey.—Times. The lesson of mercy which the French people ❑ve the world in the case of t' :e guilty Ex-Ministers of the dethroned King has not tended in the least to humanise the spirit that presides over the political tribunals of despotism. Their vindictive ci uelty, profaning the sacred name of justice, takes her stand, and for real or imaginary offences against power, asks for blood as tl e only fitting peace-al ring to despotic wrath, and delights in multiplying sangui nary examples. Clemency is never considered a virtue by a certain description of rulers of mankind until they are reduced to the necessity of soliciting This is the technical name by which each House of Parlilment designates the other. its interposition on behalf of themselves or the minions of their tyrannical power. Even the Ex- King of France, after deluging the streets of Paris with the blood of his subjects, became an ad vocate for the Gad-like attribute of mercy when the infatuated instruments of his guilty ambition were the culprits for whom its saving protection was im plored. It might have been well then if he could have pointed to any signal examples of Royal mercy to persons convicted of treason which either his own reign or that of his predecessor had ded. The French people had not forgotten the fate of Nev and Labedoyere—of Berton and Bories—and others ; and yet they spared the regal nraleractors who were convicted of treason against the nation—of treason attended with mere a2gra tvnary t i g h as ee circumstanc e s orded. T t h h e a than usurper aty whichof P o modern to establish his title to the legittmate honour of " _Divine right," by equalling aoy thing that ancient or modern tyrants have done in the way i rt ° rg d a '. l ni seemshis of vindictive and barbarous cruelty Yet, if tc morrow he were hurled, by an act of Divine Hui . . but ion, from the seat cf his demoniac authority, and were to stand on trial for his crimes at the bar of oulibc justice, we should hear of every Govirnment in Europe interceding in his behalf, to save him from the condign punishment of his enormities, as in the case of the Ex-Minister, to whom _France owes the carnage and the triumph of her revolu tion. Is the humanity of Governments only that one-eyed virtue which watches exclusive's over the srivation of regal rebels ? Shall Miguel and Fer dinand rival Nero and Caligula in the fero cious and wholesale 'butchery of cold revenge under judicial forms ? and shall none of those Statesmen, who, when the lives of the French Ex- Ministers were in peril, professed themselves ad verse to the shedding of blood for political offences, interfere to recommend moderation in their vet. , geance ? The latest exploit which we hear of Fer dinand VII. is the putting to death, in one town in his dominions, 4.5 political offenderi, with as little compunction as if they were so many dogs. If the Constitutionalists had succeeded, and committed such a massacre in cold blood, what an outcry would have been raised against the " sanguituvy spirit of democracy !" But we dare say this work of blo o d will only be looked at as an instance of energy in the Sovereign, whcse malignant power broods like a moral pestilence over degraded Spain. Don Miguel has also had his human sacrifices, and though nor, in the present instance, in as great a number as his relation of the Escurial, y:t the atrocity of the cir cumstances may suffice at the present as making ample amends for the deficiency of victims. Only seven. of the persons charged with participation in his pre tended plot at Lisbon I.rave yet fallen on the , ceffo!d but the " energy" of the tyrant %‘ as cannel to the highest point in this ;—he cared not whether they were guilty or innocent of any political offence who!. ever—he had thought proper to accuse them, and that was sufficient reason why they should perish, and why any Judge who might dare to art upon proofs of their innocence should be denounced as a' Constitutionalist ! Besides, if we look at the style' in which tire execution was conducted, it speaks highly for the degree of ferocious perfection to which the pious Miguel has brought the art of political butchery. Only think of the dramatic effect of the executioner, when wearied with the work of stran gulation, searing himself on the fatal platform and coolly smoking a cigar, and then, refreshing himself for the funkier operations of his disgusting office by quaffing a bottle of wine ! When regal power fa• miliarises the public mind with such scenes, need we ask how a populace comes to be barbarized, and where they learn those 1(s-ions of revenge which are sometimes :wally retaliated upon tt:eir rulers Morning Herald. We return to the debate on Lord Wharneliffe's motion in the House of Lords, last Monday, which equalled, if it did not far exceed, in point of interest, the best of those which had preceded it on the Re-- form Bill in the other House of Parliament. It brought out the great strength and flower of the Government, in the persons of Lord Grey, Lord Brougham, and Lord Plunkett, as it did the most conspicuous weakness of the Anti-Reform party, in that of the Duke of Wellington. His terrace ap pears to pride himself on being consistent. . Alas! he is, on Reform at least, not merely " the un-' taught" but " the untesehable."' It is, at the same time, but justice to draw a line between the fralk and manly declarations of the Duke of Welling ton ,' -who throws away the scabbard and leaves himself Jut a single ally or adherent in the empire, by , •ing in his open enmity to all roantier of Re , ..,—and certain shufilers, who are in tlie'r hesrts no less devoted to boroughmongering from sordid motives, than his Grace confesses himself to be from public ones, but who admit the necessity of some (however vague and indescribable) alteration in the demerits of the House of Commons,—just so far es the concession may liable them to catch a few timid and faltering votes in opposition to the present mea sure. The ground of the Doke of Wellingtoe's dislike to the Bill, as explained by him on Monday even ing, is t.ullieiently broad and eharacterisric,—such ae 110 man could be bold enough to occupy, who was net utterly, arid even instinctively, blind to the real uses of a tepresentative Constitutton. his Grace's ' objections resolve themselves into these two:- 1. That the elective body will be principally com posed of shopkeepers ; 2. That the body eleeicd by them will he no longer obliged to vote as the Mini ster of the day may diceee. Both objections, as It seems to us, may be disposed of without difficulty. If Hampshire be so situated as to contain a number of populous towns unrepteseeted, but with a large p ()portion of their inhabitants possessing those qua ofieeiions as to property which will entitie them to vote fur Knights of the Shire, it must be obvious, even to the prejudiced mind of the Duke of Wel lington, that such inhabitants of the towns of Hamp shire must have a stake aid interest in the country, independent of their several shops ; and that voting —not in their character of shopkeepers, but in that of 101. copvholders, or of leaseholders to the amount of 501. per annum—they must act more or le s under sympathies which bind them to the landed interest, and to a certain degree enlarge the narrow ness of the counter, or deaden its partialities with them, When we look, moreover, et the im mense accession to the numbers of the real country constituency—the yeomen and farmers, who have no connection with any trade but that in beef or corn—which is secured to the kingdom by this Bill, it would seem that the Duke of Wellington must have done considerable violence to the coolness and vigour of his own intrepid spirit, when he exercised so much ingenuity in hunting out causes for :drum. The nonresident voters for most boroughs or counties" in England, consist pretty generally of the class of men who, when they embark in any course of trade, can do so no otherwise than as shopkeepers, that order of people are usually found either in London or in the larger provincial towns, and voting for representatives of the place which they inhabit; they are debarred from any privilege as to counties.. We have heard it often said that the trading inte rests are likely to be losers by this Bill, in so far tee the opportunity of purchasing seats may be ex tinguished—a loss abundantly indeed made up to them by the direct enfranchisement of so many considerable towns. But indisputably we have never understood from any respectable quarter, except the Duke of Wellington, that the shop keeping inteeest was to be favoured in pre ference, and in detriment to the land. lf, nes er tireless, the shopkeepers of Great Britain do gain— and gain considerably at the 'expellee of age culturists—to us it will be no occasion of A:grit- The middle classes of English traders, forming it , a great measure the body in question, contain amonget them, as a whole, the most intelligent and List . : portion, perhaps, of the community, _ l s e e v c i o n i g nm a Zn- • understanding. the general interest R es g. -e t a i t , ti e r i f s s ts c , o m ir re t r i e ie d e ratio otturnr.:(9,l,odr;let. to o% rank eoir be:a g " fr :Brit i s e the revolting member of m, h House of Commons of because it would ere. t t a ion of the Reform Bill, st.eech twits leis condevre