The Sun. — London, England, 1831-07-14 00:00:00

IMPERIAL Pint. I XMENT. HOUSE OP LORDS, Jute - 13. TITHES IN IRELAND. The Bishop of FERNS rose to present a petition from certain beneficed clergymen in the dist; ict of Grange, in Lel ind, which had been lately disturbed by disputes about tithes, an I lie begged in the first instance to move that the ictition should be read at length. The petition was accordingly read by tie Clerk. It complained that there existed in that pert of Ireland a sys tematic opposition to the payment of tithes, and that it was impossible for the incumbents to collect them without having recourse to the aid of the coesiabohary or military power. The RIGHT REV. PRELATE then proceeded to observe, that previous to moving that the petition should 1;e upon the table, be wished to a Idress a few words to their Lord ships upon the subject to which the petition referred. Ile was the more anxious to do so, because the petitioners complained of the evils to which they drew the attention of their Lordships upon no slight ground, and because calumnies had of late been heaped in profusion upon the Clergy of the Irish Established Church by all t h ese w h o hated the religion which they taught, or who envied the advantages which they enjoyed, or who were desirous to effect the destruction of the Constitutien of which that ehuich formed an immortal part.—(A laugh.) He was anxious, under such circumstances, to state a few facts in reply to the calumnious attacks made upon that establish ment. In a Recent publication of a Rumen Catholic Bishop, entitled, " Letters recommending the Introduc tion of Provision for the Pear into that Country," the meet calumnious attacks had been made upor, the Irish Clergy.. Ile (the Bishop of Ferns) should not dwell mitten the extraordinary daring which was ma eiFested b'. addressing to a 31ernlier of his Majesty's Goreeettnent letters in which a disobedience to the haw, Ansi tt hatred towards that provision given by the law to the clergy, were recommended to the Irish people, nd in a hope was expressed that resistance would be made to every law, civil or ecclesiastical, which should he brought forward in support of that provision for the Irish c l er gy,. The first calumny which this publication con tained on the clergy of 'eel ind was, that they were gene tally non-resident. Now, would it he believed by their Loteishipe that in the county of Carlow, under the iimnee 4Viiete eye of Bishop Doyle, the author of this publication, there was only one incumbent who had duty to perform, non-resident, and the cause of his non-residence arose &nen the cirentnstance of his neither having a glebe nor 'env grionnil to build upon. Teat incumbent had further serri:lseavoured to get a house within the distance from the Vrish church regulated by law, but he was unable to ob tain one. There were 22 beneficed clergymen in that county, and there was only amongst that number one men-resident who had any duty to perform. There were two 'other parishes where there were no churches, and ebetetfore where the incumbent if resident would rot have ett7 duty to discharge. The facts were as he (the Bishop of Ferns) had stated, and they were as well known to Dr. Doyle as they were to him. Dr. Doyle next proceeded, in the publication he had mentioned, to state, that the provi sion allotted for the maintenance of the Irish Established Church was immense and extravagant. It was unneces sary far him (the Bishop of Ferns) to go into a refuta tion of that statement nom. The evidence of Baron Foster, which was on their Lordships' talc—of an individual intimately acquainted with the details of the subject, and not ineined to represent that property as less than it really was—would at once show that the statement of Bishop Doyle was (pits; unfounded. Bishop Doyle represented the parish es in Ireland as being worth from 5,0001. to 4,0001. 3,000/. and 2,0001. each, in many instances. Now he (the Bishop of Ferns) be lieved that there was not ne parish in Leland which al - ogether afforded to the incumbent 3.000/. a-year, and he knew that the average amount yielded by parishes was greatly below that. In Carlow, which was a highly cul• tivated county, the average amount derived by an incum bent from a parish was 350/. a-year, as was apparent from the returns under the Tithe Composition Act. There had been disturbances in the district from which this peti tion proceeded, through the opposition which had been offered to the payment of tithes. These disturbances had taken place in the parish helot by the Rev. Mr. Allcock, who had been incumbent there fur 20 years, who had constantly resided in his parish during that time, and who hid exerted himself absolutely to court the favour of his Catholic parishioners. When he became the incumbent of tie parish in question, he had resigned 2001. a-year out of the total amount which the proceeds of the parish had averaged ; and the fact was, that this avaricious rector re ceived from his parishioners not more than about 7d. per acre. Was that too much for him ?—(Hear.) He (the Bishop of Ferns), after he had presented this petition, should certainly move for a return of the parishes in Ire land which had compounded for their tithes, specifying the number of acres in each parish. When that return was upon their Lordships' table, they would be able to refer to it when any missstaternent was made with respect to the amount of the revenues receivi d by the established clergy in Ireland. Ile wished he could point out an efficient remedy for the evils of which the commissioner complained. It was easy to describe the multiplied and vexatious obstructions thrown in the way of the collection of tithes, but it wee not so easy to remove them. It was even a hazardous thing at present to send a person to view a parish which had not compounded, not to speak of the danger of at tempting to collect the tithes there. Not only was that the case, but even in parishes where the Composition Act had been introduced, the recovery of the tithe was pre vented, for no man would venture to serve a process there when the serving of it was menaced with the penalty of death by persons who never menaced in vain. It ap peared to him that the recovery of the tithe under such circumstances might be made an additional duty on the part of the police. The tithe should be considered as rent in such instances, and if the opposition to the payment of tithe-rent in those places should be successful, it did not require much sagacity to foresee that opposition would be made in the next instance to the payment of the rent itself. The Right Rev. Prelate then moved that the petition should lie on the table, which was agreed to. He was proceeding to move fer the return which he had already mentioned, when it being suggested to hint by Lord MELBOURNE that it would be more regular to give notice of the motion for to-morrow, he accordin g ly did so. The Earl of DARNLEY presented a petition from the High Sheriff, gentry, and ineholders, of the county of Meath, in favour of the Reform Bill. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from the Protestant inhabitants of the pariah of Nun's island, in Galway, in favour of the Galway Franchise Bill. NEWTOWNBARRY AFFAIR. Lord FARNHAM, in rising to bring forward the pre sent motion, felt considerably embarraes•d. He felt that premature discussions cn subjects of this nature, before the legal investigation which they must necessarily undergo had been brought to a conclusion, were attended with great inconvenience. Entertaining as he did those senti ments, he should never have thought of bringing this mat ter under the consideration of their Lordships at the pre sent juncture, if the same line of conduct had been adopted by every one else, and if it had not been endea voured by one party to pre-occupy the public mind, to interrupt the stream of justice, and to heap the foulest ca lumnies on persons concerned in this unfortunate affair, by the publication of the meet scandalous libels and flagitious mi -statements that had ever disgraced the Press of any country. But even the publication of such calumnies and misrepresentations would scarcely have induced him to take the step which he was now about to take, bad they not gained additional weight from observations made in ano ther place, to which he did not deem it expedient to refer more particularly, where the grossest misrepresentation of the facts of the case had been promulgated, and where the phrases " indiscriminate slaughter," " mas sacre," and other opprobious terms, had been applied towards the acts of individuals, whose .conduct had as yet to underg o a judicial investigation.—(Hear, hear.) It was under such circumstances that he felt it necessary to call on their Lordships to agree to the motion which he was about to make. for the presentation of an address to his Majesty, p ray i ng hie Majesty that he would he graciously pleased to ord e r the production of certain papers which would throw he wan sincerely owa proper light upon this unfortun a t e t ra nsaction, and which hi l convinced would e stablish the correctness of th e view y w ie( (Lord Farnham) had taken of it. So g ross had been rho mis representations sent abroad of this transacti on , t h at in many of the provincial towns of England handbills had been circulated, with descriptive figures in them, contain ing the most exaggerated account of the affray at New townbarry. He held in his hand sue which had been dis tributed in Wolverhampton and Birmingham, which spoke of " the dreadful slaughter at Newtownb my," and which gave the most libellous and abominable description that it was possible to give of the whole occurrence. Their Lordslaips Would recollect that early in the last session of Parliameot, he (Lord Farnham) had called their Lord ships' attention pretty much to the subject which his Right Reverend Friend had pressed upon the ir consideration that night. He had upon that occasion called their Lordships' attention to many disturbances connected with the collec tion of tithes which bad taken place in the parish of Graigue, in the county of Kilkenny'. lie at that time took occasion to state that be was firmly convinced, and what had since occurred had confirmed him in that opt niun, that a s)stemitic conspiracy had been formed in that pert of Ireland to oppose the payment of tithes, and he mentioned the names of those whom he considered as foremost in organizing that conspiracy. At the head of that conspiracy he hid placed that Rev. Prelate, to whom his flight Rev. Friend had alluded that evening, end who hail lately addressed a letter to Mr. S. Rice, the Secretary to the Treasury, urging the necessity of an establishment of a provision for the poor of Ireland. Ile would take the liberty of reading to them a pawege from that letter to which his Right Rev. Friend had referred, end he trusted that their Lordships, on hearing it, would he of opinion that any thing less likely to allay the excitement which existed in Ireland against tithes could not be composed than the passage in question. Talking of the Irish nation in this letter, Bishop Doyle remarked—" The Irish people, since their first conversion to the Christian fiith, always understood rightly the Gospel dicensation. They were 11Ways too rational, and too acute, to sul‘init wihingly to an unreasonable, I might add an unjust imposition, and the law of tithe, whether civil or eccleeiestical, has never had —tither in Catholic or Protestant times, no, not to the present hour—the assent or consent of the Irish nation. They have always been at war with it, and I trust in God they will never cheerfully submit to it." Truly, the Irish people had been at war with it, and this letter was well calculated to encourage them in keeping up that war. The Doctor went on to say—" There are many noble traits in the Irish character, mixed with failings which have always raised obstacles to their own well-being ; but an innate !eve of justice, and an indomitable hatred of oppression, is like a gem upon the ft ont of our nation, which no dark ness ran obscure. To this fine quality I trace their hatred of tithe. May it be as lasting as their love of justice !" He (Lord Farnham) must say, that he could not avoid expressing the indignation which he felt at finding a person filling the situation which Dr. Doyle did, sitting down in his study and coolly disseminating, through the means of this pamphlet, such sentiments as these throughout Ire loid,—sentiments which were calculated to effect so much mischief. He did in his conscience believe, that to hint and to his writing, in a great degree, the state of Ireland with regard to tithes was to be attributed, and he did think that Dr. Doyle was morally responsible inr the blood shed in the late unfortunate affair in Newtownbarry. Their Lordships would recollect that, in the former session, he (Lord Farnham) alluded to the conduct of an individual of the same name as Dr. Doyle. He was then informed that he was mistaken in supposing that that Rev. Gentle man was a near relative of Dr. Doyle, and that he was only a distant relation of hie. That Rev. Gentleman lied resided in the parish of Clonegal, which adjoined that of Newtownbarry, for several years, and he (Lord Farnham) was aware that he had been in the habit if ex citing the people there against tithes. He would assert that one of the chief conspirators in the conspiracy excited in Ireland against tithes, was the eelebtated person from whose letter he had just read an extract to their Lordships. A singular consideration here arose. He had been told— at least the fact had been stated on newspeper authority— that this Rev. Prelate had been made a Magistrate of the county of Carlow. _ . Lord PLUNKETT nodded dissent from the statement. Lord FARNHAM said the fact might not be so,—he enly spoke from public report. Lord PLUNKETT said, that if the Noble Lor d meant to say that Dr. Doyle had been made a Magistrate, he (Lord Plunkett) had no recollection of any such thing having taken place ; if it bad taken place, it was very unlikely that 100 should have forgotten such a circumstance with regard to so remarkable a pea son, and he had every reason to think that such was not the case. Indeed, it was quite impossible that it could lie the case. Lord FARNHAM now came to the subject which he wished to bring more immediately under the considera tion of their Lordships. No person could lament more deeply than he did the unfortunate result of what had taken place in Newtownbarry, where he supposed that from fifteen to twenty liven bad been sacrificed,as he thought it would appear, unavoidably, in consequence of the resistance of the people to the payment of tithes. The Right Rev. Prelate had correctly stated that the parish of Newtownbarry was under the operation of the Tithe Com position Act, and the incumbent could therefore recover his tithes there by distress, which enabled him to recover them in as full and ample a manner as any of their Lord ships could recover their rents. With regard to the Rev. Gentleman who was the incumbent of the parish, as he bad been most unjustly attacked, he wished to say a few words in his defence. It had been said in another place thet this Rev. Gentleman had been at variance with his parishioners. Now he had resided in the parish for the last twenty-four years, and tap to the present moment he had not had the slightest difference with hie parishionar4. lie had, in fact, lived upon terms of the greatest 11:u-- mony with them until this conspiracy against the pay ment of tithes had been got up in Ireland. He was one of the most pious and exemplary Clergymen in the diocese in which his parish was situated. He had lately been appointed to the care of an additional parish in the neighbourhood of Newtownharry, and though the income from both the parishes, if lie could recover it, would have been considerable, this Clergy man, with a family of nine or ten children, to his (Lord Farnham's) knowledge, would have been in absolute want if his (Lord Farnham's) steward hail not allowed him to take some of the sheep of his flock without payment. Was such a thing as that to be tolerated in a land where law existed, and where it should be respected ? In the in stance out of which this melancholy transaction had arisen, this Rev. Gentleman had levied a distress for tithes due to him. Cattle were seized for that purpose,. and in making the distress the Rev. Gentleman did not go to a poor man, but lie went to a rich man, who could as easily pay the demand as any of their Lordships. The cattle being bailed out, the day of sale was fixed for the ISth of June lest. The day preceding. namely, the 17th, was the far d ay of Newtownbarry. He would here read to their Lordships a copy of a placard, which was printed in very large type, and carried about on a board, so that every one could see it, in the fair of Newtownbarry, and which had been distributed in every town, village, and hamlet within twenty :elks of that place. This placard was headed with the ominous words—" Reform ! The Church in danger ! !" and it was couched in the following terms :—" The Go vernment have sent circular letters to all the incumbents io Ireland, requiring them forthwith to furnish the lowest accounts of all their incomes, with a view in (realer, in future, to pay them out of the Treasury. Inhabitants of the parish of St. Mary Newtownbarry, there will be an end to church plunder ! your pot, blanket, and pig, will not be here after sold by auction, to support in luxury, idleness, and ease, persons who endeavour to make it appear that it is essential to the peace and prosperity of the country, and your eternal salvation, while the most of you are starving ! Attend to an auction of your neighbour's cattle, on Saturday next, the 18th inst., seized for tithe, by the Rev. Alexander M'Clintock." That placard was carried through the fair by a boy, who was paid Is. for carrying it by the son of the nian whose cattle load been seized. It was printed in Dublin. He (Lord Farnham) knew the printer who printed it, and he knew the person at whose solicitation it had been printed. Any thing more calculated to create a riot could not have been pro mulgated. What did the Magistrates do ? They imme diately took precautions to assert the dignity of the law. They sent letters to the captains of the different yeomanry corps in the neighbourhood to attend, and they also called on the police to attend the sale next day, in order to assist the civil power. One of those Magistrates had been groas'y calumniated, anal his whole conduct vilely at tacked—he meant Captain Graham. That gentleman possessed property in several counties in Ireland ; he had served in the Peninsula; he had shed his blood in the cause of his country, and he was distinguished for a most humane and benevolent disposition. Another of the Ma gistrates who acted on that occasion had resided in the neighbourhood for 25 years. He was aware of the dis position of the people, and, apprehending a riot, he saw ' it was absolutely necessary to call in a military force. The force which was called in consisted of about 150 yeomen and about 40 police. In order that the yeomanry should not come into unnecessary collision with the people, they were placed in an enclosed yard, not to be called out uuless the police force should be found insufficient to prevent the apprehended riot and to enforce the exe cution of the law. The cattle were brought from the pound into Newtownbarry to be sold, and it appeared, that while in the custody of the bailiff, for the purpose of being sold, they were rescued from him. The police being sent after them, took them and replaced them in the pound, when they were surrounded on all sides by a multi tude of more than 2,000 1 ersons. The magistrates, ap prehensive that the police would be overpowered, directed that the yeomanry should be called out and sent to the pound, which was about a quarter or half a mile from Newtownbarry, in order to bring the cattle into the town to be sold. The yeomanryhavingaccordinadv come down, yeomanrytwl e tr e c atot n tiwere marchedbmroa br in ought t they ee outy rear.,avn r i e placed aassailed While wt i front, i,teh esaohr yeomanry were ch of stones and missiles of every description. In return, they merely kept off the crowd with their bayonets. When they got near the tow n w i t h t h e cattle, a rush wes made on them, and shots were fired upon them. A ye man was killed, and the son of a ye oman was shot also o : ' several of the yeomen were wounded, and severa l were knocked down by the stones which were thrown at them. The yeomanry certainly did then tire, and it would app ear from ;the evidence given at the coroner'e i nquest, that the tiring on their part did not continue for more than t.t.o or three minu'es. They therefore fired in their own defence, and the firing only lasted as long as the danger continued. The LORD CHANCELLOR put it to the Noble Lord whether they, being the highest court of judicature, might thus prematurely and prejudicially to occupy them selves with the merits of a case which the law had con rigned to ether tribunals?—(Hear, her.) He put it to the Noble Lord whether, because the Newspapers had t! , ,ought proper to embark in a discussion upon this affair, that was any reason why the House of Lords should an ticipate the course of the common law ?—(Hear, hear.) He thought the good sense of the Noble Lord would lead him to perceive the inconvenience and the impropriety of that House pronouncing an opinion upon 's case which was abaft to he brought before a b•gal tribunal, arid thereby incur the imputation of interfering with the fair • and even course of justice.—(Hear, hear.) Lord FARNHAM readily agreed that it would be most improper for him to go into any facts which were likely to become the subject of investigation before a criminal tri hunal—(Hear, hear)—and in the few observations, there fore, which be had now to trouble their Lordships with, lie should carfully abstain from touching upon any such facts.—(llear, hear,) Let their Lordships consider what hail been the conduct of the Magistracy. He thought that there could be no doubt that the Magistracy had, under the circumstances that he had stated, exercised a sound discretion in assembling a force sufficient to main tain the peace. A Magistrate was entitled to call both the civil and the military power to his assistance, and whether, therefore, the yeomanry was to be denominated a civil or a military force, the Magistrate was elect ly en titled to call them cut to assist him in the preservation of the peace. This power was given to Magistrates in Ire land by the 3d of Geo. 111., c. 98, which Aet also em powered a Magistrate as well to take rioters into custody as to disperse a riotous assembly. The Magistrates, there f•re, had a right to call out the yeomanry, and the yeomanry hail a right to obey the orders of the Ma eistrates. He would conclude, therefore, by moving, " That an address be presented to his Majesty for a copy of the evidence taken before Mr. Green, K.C., who had been sent by the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland to inquire into the affray which had taken place at Newtownbarry on the I Sth of June last. Also for a copy of the report id the Chief Constable of Police, and of the. Inept etor General, respecting the occurrences of that day." Viscount MELBOURNE, in the few observations which he should think it necessary to make to their Lordships in opposition to this motion, shou'd not enter into any dis cnasion of the tithe question, which had been very pro petty introduced by a Right Rev. Prelate, because the peti tion which the Right Rev. Prelate had presented was upon that subject, but which he joust be allowed to say the Noble Baron had no such excuse !or having entered upon. —(Hear, hear.) Still less should he think himself justi fied in entering upon the discussion of the disputes about tithes at Newtownhairy. Neither should he make a single oh creation, much less give any opinion, upon the case which the Noble Baron had laid before their Lordships. The Noble Baran had expressed a strong confidence that that case would tarn out to be a; he had opened it to their Lordships, but surely it would have been wiser in the Noble Baron to have left their Lordships' knowledge of that ease to the certain intimation of the law, instead of hurry ing their Lordships into this premature, this precipitate, and, he must add, this dangerous discussion.—(Hear.) As to the papers for which the Noble Baron had moved— the first was, the report of a gentleman who had been sent, in his opinion most properly, by the Lord Lieutenant to investigate the affair. This r port, however, was of a confidential nature ; it was framed only for the information of the Irish Government ; it consisted of evidence taken before no suthorized tribunal; all that evidence was voluntary, and had not been given upon oath. Now he did not mean to say that •iich a case might not be made out as to call even for the production of a do cument of this nature ; but then he was quite sure that their Lordships would take care that a very strong and special case should he made out before they sanctioned the production of such a document.—( Hear, hear.) 'With respect to the second papa for which the Noble Baton had moved, that also was a document of a confidential nature. It was the report of an officer of police, com- • innnicated confidentially to the Irish Government, and was necessarily ex parte.—(Hear, hear.)_. lie believed that that officer of police had conducted himself in the affair with great prudence. Thus much he had nu hesitation in saying of that individual ; but then that individual was engaged in the affray, and might be affected by the ulterior proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) Such was the nature of the two documents, and he was sure that Noble Lords would see, that when the first step of the investigation Was nut yet completed,—while they were without even the verdict of a Coroner's jury, nothing could be more improper than the production of such documents.—(Hear.) The Noble Baron had referred to discussions and proceedings on this subject in another place. Now, if their Lordship; would take the trouble to refer to the Journals of the House of Commons of the 30th of June, they would find that a motion for similar papers was made in that House, and that that motion was withdrawn by leave,—which termi nation of the motion was, as their Lordships knew, a proof that both the mover and the seconder of the motion had been convinced that it was a motion which ought not to he granted.—(llear, be Ir.) Lord FARNHAM, with the permission of their Lord• ships, would withdraw his motion. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. TITHE BILLS. The LORD CHANCELLOR intimated to their Lord ships that the Earl of Eldon would not be able to atten 1 the House to-morrow, the day for which the discussion of these Bills had been fixed. He had communicated this fact by letter to his Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury, and asked his Grace if he had any objection to postpone the second reading of his Bill till Monday, seeing how de sirable it was that the Noble and Learned Earl (Eldon) should be present at the discussion. lie had not yet re ceived an answer from his Grace, but he Lad no doubt that his Grace, with his usual courtesy, would allow the second reading of the Bill to be fixed for Monday, instead of for to-morrow. He mentioned this in order to save their Lordships the trouble of coming down to-morr, , w. Lord DACRE should fix his Bill for what,ver day might be appointed for the second relding of that of his Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury. Shortly afterwards, The LORD CHANCELLOR informed their Lord- ships that be had just received a note from the Archbishop of Canterbury, in which his Grace readily acceded to the proposal for deferring the second reading of the Bill till Monday. He would therefore move that the order for to. morrow be discharged, and that the second reading of his Grace's Bill and that of Lord Dacre be fixed for Monday. Agreed to.—Lords to be summoned. BANKRUPTCY. Tie LORD CHANCELLOR gave notice, that he should on Friday move for leave to bt ing in a Bill, which had been stopped in its progress by the dissolution of the last Path 'meta, for the establishment of a Court of Bank ruptcy. COURT OF EXCHEQUER (SCOTLAND.) The LORD CHANCELLOR gave notice, that he should on Tuesday next move for leave to present a Bill for the abolition of the Coutt of Exchequer in Scotland, and for making provision for the discharge of those duties which had !lithe- to been performed by that Cout t. Adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, 13. Tne SPEAKER. took his seat at Four o'clock, when seTeral private Biila were read a third time and passed. BEERALSTON ELECTION. Mr. MABERLY rose and begged to call the attention of the House to a petition which he had presented at seven o'clock that ntorning, praying fur an extension of time for the petitioner to give security to prosecute a former petition against the return of one of the Mem bers for B:eralston. The petitioner had given in the names of the sureties, but after ti.e expira tion of the seven days fur examining into their sufficiency, one of them refused to swear he was worth 5001., and consequently the petitioner would have to ob tain another surety, and he now prayed an extension of time to enable him to effect that object. The Hon. Alem her said the object of the petitioner was a bona fi de one, one of the objections to the return beitig that the sitting Member was a minor, and therefore incapable of sitting in the House. The SPEAKER wished to pause before th ey agree d to a petition which rendered the resolutions of the House a nullity. t I, petitioner . had to give se cur i ty, hi mself i n 1,0001. and two sureties in 5001. each, the names of which we're to be given seven days before the security was ac cepted. This had been done, and on the seventh day one of them refused to swear he war worth 5001.; now, the peti tioner, who caused the sitting Member some expellee in preparing himself for the 19:h Jul„ prayed for an exten sion of time, by which the meeting of the Committee would have to be adjourned until the 26th July. After some discussion All'. MABERLY withdrew the petition. TOLLS UPON STEAM CARRIAGES. Colonel TORRENS presented a petition from Mr. Gurney, the proprietor of several s t eam - carr i ages, com plaining that several Turnpike -road Bills bad been introduced into Parliament, according to which steam carriages would be subje,:t to toll. The Gallant Colonel said he was confident that it was not the inten tion of the Legislature that a tax of such a nature should be imposed on steam, but the Turnpike Bills lately intro. duced would have the effect of actually prohibiting the use of steam carriages. Mr. HUME supported the prayer of the petition, and sa , d it deserved the serious attention of the House. BiAs were passed without much attention—(llear, hear) — by which the employment of steam carriages would he actually prohibited. H. was sure ouch was not the intention of the Legislature, and he bord the House would adopt some measure to remedy so great a grievance. The petitiot.cr had devoted a great deal of time to the im pruvement in the application of steam, and his prayer was entitled to much attention. _ _ Mr. DAWSON was sure that it never was intended to levy this tax upon steam:carriages, which were charged I Is., while other carriages were charged 2.s.—(Hear) — and he hoped the Hon. and Gallant Colonel would not let the subject rest, but would proceed further in it.—(Hear.) Mr. S. WORTLEY was of opinion that steam carriages (lid considerably more injury to the roads than carriages drawn by horses. Colonel TORRENS said, with regard to the suggestion of the Hon. Member (Mr. Dawson), he would like to see the subject pressed upon the House by someone more experienced than himself. Mr. HUME said that the Gallant Colonel would find it extremely difficult to procure any individual Member to bring it forward.--( Hear, hear.) He suggested that the. Gallant Colonel should give notice that he would move for a Select Committee to examine into the complaint, and report the result to the House. The petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the table. Colonel TORRENS then gave notice, that on the sth of August he would move for a Select Committee to examine into the matters contained in the petition. Mr. SADLER postponed his motion for a provi,ion on behalf of the poor of Inland till Tnesd iy, August 2, and his motion Of which he Lid formally 2iven notice for that day relative to the same subject until Monday the 11th. Mr. M'KINNON presented a petition from an individual residing in Park-lane, aainat the Bill for abolishing oaths before the Lott) Steward. Mr. MOUNT presented a petition from the merchants, clergymen, freeholders, and gentlemen of the Isle of ight, praying that they might have two knights to represent the Tile in Parliament. Mr. FITZGERALD presented a petition from Seaford, one of the boroughs in schedule A, against the Reform Bill. If the Bill passed in its present firm into a law, he was of opinion it might well be termed a Bill of Pains and Penalties against his constituents and many othtrd. Mr. HUNT presented a petition from a place in the county of Lancaster, describing the evils suffered from the Corn Laws, and praying fir their immediate repeal. It was the deliberate and unanimous conviction of the petitioners that the corn tax alone was a greater evil to them than all the other taxes pnt together, wicked in its principle, and partial in its operation. It bad subjected them and many millions of his Majesty's subjects besides to a state of misery that had no parallel in any na tion in the world, and had sent many thousands to an un timely grave. He hoped that Governn:ent would devise sonic means of correcting the baleful effects of this un holy law.—(Hear, hear, hear.) lie had given notice of a motion on the subject for Friday next, but :ts he be lieved the House would on that day be occupied with a measure of much importance, he would postpone his mo tion till the 28th. Mr. WEYL AND presented a petition from Hinder), Wilts, against the Reform Bill, which proposed to destroy their right of voting at elections. He thought this prayer quire compatible with the principles of a just and consti tutional Itrf Mr. BROWN presented a petition from Newpoit, county Mayo, Ireland, praying for two Members to repre sent that town in Parliament, Mr. J. CAMPBELL presented a petition from the owners and occupiers of land in the neighbourhoad of Westmoreland for the regulation of the tithes. Mr. J. WOOD supported the petition, and stated that in one parish (Kirkby-Kendal) not fewer than 220 suits in Chancery Laud, within a short intervAl, been insti tuted for the payment of tithes. Sir E. SUGDEN was not indisposed to have some reasonable limitation introduced upon this subject, but he was decidedly opposed to any legislative enact ment upon an abstract proposition like the present, or a point so important as this was, while the subject, too, wan sub judice. Ile believed be was Counsel in some cause on the very question ; but on which side he could not recollect, and that was of the less importance as it would make no alteration in his feelings. DISFRANCHISEMENT OF FREEMEN. Mr. HODSON presented a petition from the freemen and inhabitants of the city of Coventry, praying that the freemen of that city might not be disfranchised by the present measure of Reform. Sir CHARLES WETHERELL was glad to find that the people of Coventry were beginning to understand the operation of the present Bill—beginning to understand that it was to operate as a sys!em of disfranchisement. It rcis highly gratifying to him to observe that at this late, this posthumous period of the Bill, the eyes of the people of Coventry were beginning to be opened. It was a privilege which freemen undoubtedly highly prized, the right of voting, and which undoubtedly they ought not to be deprived of. Mr. ELLICE believed that the petitioners had called public meeting for the purpose of petitioning that the elec. tie.? franchise should be reserved in the Bill to the fi eemen of the city of Coventry. At that meeting an amendment was proposed that the elective franchise should be granted to the householders generally, and which was carried by a considerable majority. As almost a necessary result, petitions from both parties were sent to the House, but neither the petition of the one nor of the other had been entrusted to him by his constituents, well knowing that he would bring forward nothing which might he calculated to impede the progress of the present Reform Bill. Mr. GOULBURN said it appeared distinctly to him ' front what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman opposite, that the inhabitants of Coventry were divided into two parties and that ho h parties were opposed to the system of Reform, brought in by his Majesty's Ministers. Mr. ELLICE, in explanation, said the meeting he alluded to bad been called, in consequence of the six months' occupation clause b;:ing supposed to interfere with their rights Mr. ROBINSON said that neither of the parties were opposed to the present Reform Bill ; while they were grateful for what his Majesty's Ministers proposed for them generally, they simply prayed that the ancient rights which snme of them enjoyed might not be disturbed. Sir E. SUGDEN was of a different opinion. The pe tition only complained of the Bill as it affected the peti tioners themselves, but they were utterly heedless of the manner in which it might press on any others. Mr. HODSON was ignorant of the facts attending the getting up of the petition. It was signed by 2,430 highly respectable individuals, and consequently highly deserving in his *pinion the attention of the Huse. Sir CHARLES Vr'ETHERELL said, however de serving the Honourable Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice) might be, it appeared clearly that be was not to be con fided in by either of the Coventry parties, because neither of them would entrust the presenting of their petitions to him. Having taken the liberty of avowing himself to he decidedly hostile to the present measure of Reform, he (Sir C. W.) had received letters from numerous places remon strating in strong terms against the course he had taken; but certainly not one of those letters had come from Coventry. H e liad never known to great a delusion to exist on any subject throughout the country as had prevailed on this subject, but now undoubtedly their eyes were beginning to be opened. Mr. ELLICE said he could assure the Honourable arid Learned Gentleman that he had presented him self to the citizens of Coventry with the Bill in his hand, and they had placed him, by a very considerable majority, at the head of the poll. He believed further, that if he were to go back to Coventry at another election, he would cer tainly stand upon the poll at the same distance from any opponent, notwithstanding the part be had taken on the present occasion respecting these petitions.— The petitioners, undoubtedly highly respectable, though presented this p e titi on f o r the extension of th e they load osesi elective franchise, yet there was not one of them who had not signed a petition in favour of this Bill. Alderman THOMPSON rose to take this opportunity a explaining what had fallen from him last night, and also to correct a misinterpretation of the motives whi c h had induc ed him to vote on that occasion. Both last sess i on and this present Session he had invariably sup pin ted the Reform Bill, and it was his intention to go hand in hand with Government. He supported schedules / t and B, but haying some local knowledge of the borough (App l e by) under consideration list night, and know ing that one parish in that borough had been omitted in the population returns of 1821, and a l so as many burgage tenures were situated in that parish, of which no return was made ; knowing also that an application had been made to Government, and no answer returned, he felt it his duty to state that the omission could be proved at the bar. He did not wish to embarrass Go vernment : the time had arrived when nomination bra. roughs should be done away with ; the principle of the B:ll was clear and coruptehensive, and no danger what ever could arise to the Constitution, by admitting such class of persons to the elective franchise. It was a mea• sore that would give a fair representation to all classes. The Hon. Member's sentiments had undergone no Chang. noon this subject, and he felt confident that if the Noblc Lord opposite was aware of the omissiou in question, L. would allow Appleby to return one Member. REFOIINI BILL. On the moticn of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, the Order of the D,ty for the H°u-e r,solv ir:z itself into a Committee of the whole linue on thi, 13ill was read. . _ . Mr. CROKER would take that opportunity of pi ttit 4 a question to the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had state(' that by consent of its noble proprietor, the bormigh of Downton was to be taken from schedule B, and to be in serted in schedule A. This change of arrangement, it appeared, had been fietemined on in consequence of a. communication which a nother Noble Lord had trim witted to the Noble Paymaster of the Forces. N ov , he (Mr. Croker) hail formerly moved for returns of all the correspondence received by Government in refe rence to these schedules, and they had been accorilino laid upon the table of the House; but the communica tion in question, he found, had neither been mentione, nor alluded to in the returns so furnished. He wished therefore, to be informed, first, what was the date of that communication ; and next, whether it was in writing or merely verbal ? Lord J. RUSSELL had not caused the communicatiot • elluded to to be laid before the House, because it was ;1 private and personal note from Lord Grenville.—(Hear., With respect to the authority on which Government hat acted, he might add, that subsequent to - the introduction of the Bill, he had met the Noble Proprietor of the bo rough, who informed him in the lobby that he had Brea' doubts whether the population of I)ownto❑ was really of the amount at which it had been estimated. After a few words from Sir E. Sunuex, which did not reach the gallery, Sir R. PEEL observed, that one point of importance had arisen out of the discussion of last night, to which he wished to invite the attention of the Noble Lord and o: His Majesty's Government in general. The House, it was true, had decided against hearing - counsel in support of tie allegations embodied in the petition frem the berough of pplel-y, bat it appeared to him that that decision mule not be understood as peremptory against receiving evi dence i❑ support of that petition. Ile would put it to the Noble Lord whether it was not very possible that Ap pleby, Askbourne, or Wareham, for example, rui,sht peti tion for the purpose of being permitted to prove bona fide that they were really entitled to their present franchise no the principle laid down by Ministers them selves, and rot with the dishonest design of unfairly inn peeling, obstructing - , or defecting the Reform Bill.— (Cheers from the Opposition.) If any case should b proposed for re-consideration where mere vexatious del.. was evidently the object sought, then surely it was op r. for the msjority summarily to reject the proposltion ; hu he could see no just reason why they should shut the doo indiscriminately on every complaint of grievance on th, assumption that it must necessarily have originated in fee tioul and improper motives.—(Hear, hear.) Anothe, difficulty in connection with this subject also present, itself to his mind, and he would take that opportunity, very briefly to explain its nature, in the hope that the Noble Lord might be induced to remove it, the rather, as the objection would still hold whether he were disposed to recognize the principle or not. Conadseioners, appeared, were to be appointed for the purpose oi dividing the counties, with a view to carry into effect the provisions of the Bill ; and, pursuant to their report, the House of Ommums hereafter would be in some degree re-modelled. This report, then, must, of course, have a very material bearing on the ques tion itself; fur certain counties, according to the principle of the measure, were henceforward to be allowed four re presentative., and the distribution of these representative would entirely depend on the decision of the Commissioners. Now, if he could be informed by what principle the Corm missioners thus appointed were to be guided hi such divi sion*, it would in a great degree simplify the subject, so a n, enable him more distinctly to understand it, and, there fore, disemberrass him of the diffictfty which he could not at present satisfactorily get over. He \less the more desi rous of idol-math:la, as a Noble Lord, favourable to the principlesof the Bill, had given a notice of motion, to the effect that such counties, instead of Icing divided into two separate districts, should remain undivided, and, as a whole, return their four representatives. In the case of Warwickshire, for instance, it was highly important to know whether Birmingham and Coventry were to be in• eluded in one division, as every Hon. Member must see that the landed interest would necessarily be materially in fluenced by an arrangement which might give the free men of those places a double franchise. lie mentioned this one instance merely in order to illustrate the nature of his objection. Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to the Right Hon. Ba ronet's question, whether Ministers would empower the Committee to receive evidence, should only observe, that he saw no great probability that a c se would occur in which such a necessity might exist. It; however, there were a probability that any case of this description would present itself, it was nevertheless not requisite for the House to instruct the Committee as the Right Hon. Ba ronet desired ; for should it appear in the Committee that any particular case did deserve a separate reconsideration, it would be easy for the House to resume, in order that the Committee might apply for power to receive evidence on the subject, if necessary.—(Cries of " Hear" from the Opposition.) As fur the division of counties, that hap pened to be a part so essential to the Bill itself, that he could not then possibly give a satisfactory answer to the Right Hon. Baronet; hut he might state, that it appeared to Government the most judicious course not to act in a matter of such delicacy and importence, without leaving it first to the arbitration of efficient and well-selected Com missioners, appointed for that purpose alone. There had certainly been complaints against the appointment of a body to whom it was proposed to delegate such authority; but he trusted, that when the names of the Commissioners became public, it would sufficiently appear that they sveme all of them entitled to respect, for their knowledge, their capacity, and personal weight, both in that House and with the country at large. The Right Hon. Baronet's ob jection, as far it went, in fact applied to the whole Bill, and he feared, therefore, that it would not be in his power to alter or remove it. Had Ministers pursued any other course than that which they had adopted, they would in effect have involved the House in a tedious and protracted debate about the respective merits of particular divisions, and he thought it better on that account to leave the mat ter wholly to the Commissioners, who, it was to be hoped, would dispose of it in a sufficiently impartial manner to he satisfactory to all parties. Sir R. PEEL, in explanation, had never expressed any suspicion of the partiality , of the Commissioners, but merely complained that it was a little hard to call upon hint to decide up , sn the division of counties without being informed on what principle that division was to be ar ranged.—(Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL could explain to the Right Hon. Baronet how Government wisher! the Commissioners to act with respect to one or two counties—such as Stafford or Warwick, although it was not in his power to supply him with any further specific information upon the subject. Sir C. WETHERELL expressed his apprehensions that the divisions might be so managed as to cause the com mercial interest unduly to preponderate. Lord J. RUSSELL said that further discussion of such a point on that occasion was irregular and irrelevant. Mr. EWART made one or two remarks which were inaudible. Sir E. SUGDEN was understood to recommend that ev.dence in the cases of certain complainant beroughs might be referred to the Commissioners. Mr. C. W. WYNN exclaimed that a more arbitrary or absolute power had never been delegated to any body of • men, and insisted that the House should lay down some fixed and properly-defined principle by which the Commis sioners would he guided in its exercise. At present the House was ignorant whether the principle was to he geo graphical, or to relate to the number of large towns, the number of voters, or the amount of popularion.—(Hear.) This he conceived was one of the most material objections to the Bill, and he hoped that Ministers, when the Com mittee came to that clause, would he prepared to state the principle on which their Commissioners were to act. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed that the subject was one of extreme difficuity, and assures' Hon. Members that Ministers were quite wihing to attend to any practical suggestion for improving the arrangement. As the House, however, bad approved of the principle of the Bill generally, they could not consent to any alteration of this part of the plan, unless some better mode of ar rangement could be substituted.—( Hear. ) Mr. C. PELHAM offered an observation which could not be heard. Ott the question " That the Speaker do leave the chair," Captain GORDON rose " to resume his position of last night," and endeavour - 0 to persuade the House that neither he, nor those who acted with him, had been in fluenced by factious motives ill pressing fur an adjourn ment. . After discussing the principle of the Reform Bill at some length, the Hon. Member proceeded to eulogize the existir.g system of representation, which when freed from the filth and falsehood of radical virulence and a re- .-olutiouity Press, would he found to contain the only trte!y conservative principle mileulated to maintain our ,ppy institutions unimpaired. The Bill was the off toring of rsdie II petitions and blind el onour, and many of hose who supported it did so with a view to the attain ment of a more sweeping Reform. All that was diseased, ofected, and corrupt in the community, was in favour of .he measure—(Laughter from the Treasury benches)_.. he object being ultimately to overturn our venerated in titutioes. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to institute t comparison between the revolutionary feeling existing n this country in 1791 and at the present time; ascrib ng the excitement at either period to the revolutions in 'ranee. He spok • in terms of commendation of the erong measures (su 'h as the suspension of the habeas Corp's A,• - ) adopted by a firm Minister and a Con ; itutional King, with a view to repress the revo. utioeary feeling in 1791. He could have wished hat that example had been followed now, instead Mioisters weakly complying with popular ela nottr. He observed, that at the present moment -lie delegates of a national union were meeting in '.ondon.—(No, no.) Did Hon. Members mean to deny eis ?—(Yes.) Ile asserted that it was the fact—that hose delegate..., were now sitting.-- -(No, no ; where ? vhete ?) Gentlemen asked where, he replied in Oxford-- nat ket ; that, he believed, was what they called the place. --(Cries of "Oh ! no, no," anl laughter.) He was bliged to the. Hon. Member for Preston, fur the exprms cii of his dissent front the proposition, because it re labeled him th it these delegates had passed a vote of hanks to the Hon. Gentleman, who now most ungrate st eared disposed to question their existence. the ton. Member proceeded to read from a printed paper an scent of the proceedings of a body, denominated " The N'ational Union of the working classes and others"—(oh, h !)—and contended that his assertion was fully sustained ty it —(No, no.) He had spoken of the delegates of a 'ational Union, for the purpose of making out the simi ttreity of the occurrences of the present period to the events .11791, when the Cifresponding Society was in existence old full operation. The constitution of the society in question began o ith a declaration of the tights of man, and terminated with a vote of thanks to Mr. Hunt ; he tvas mistaken as to the latter particular—that had occurred at Manchester—(Oh, oh)—but he rather thought the Gen leman had also beer, thanked by the London lelegates. He believed he hail now established his position Oh, oh," and cries of " No.") He had only as -.old the existence and locality of the society—he did not pretend to go into its character.—(Oh, oh.) He ,ad seen statements of hundreds of delegate, coming up et London, from rations parts of the country, fur ti e purpose of obtaining information, and being put in the vay of approaching the House. lie found that their sys anti of of ttion extended throughout every part of the min t it e. It existed in Glasgow, where the people were orovided with black flags, in readiness to march up to the uetropolis if the Lords should reject the Bill. Telegraph'c :ignels had been estildtshed alone the roads, and there was ?very where evidence of combination. In Birmingham, the people boaste t of being able to turn out, at a few days' notice, two armies as large as fought at Waterloo, every nan of which should be armed with a musket and bayonet. Viewing the character of the measure with reereoce to he time at which it was brought forward, when a revo !utionary spirt was abroad, be deprecated the Bill the none strongly, because he considered it c deulated to divest he House of a power which it had hitherto possessed and -xereiscd with advantage—the power of moderating and ,pea-sing xecssive manif stations of popular feeling. Co'oriel LINDSAY compl tined of the extraordinary haste with which Government had pressed forward a mea sure so important to the best interests of the country.— (" Oh, oh," and laughter.) lie defended the existence of lose boroughs on the ground of their forming one of the tiost ancient parts of our r. presentative system. Mr. C. WYNN movvd that the several petitions re 'ating to the details of the Bill be referred to the Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had no ohjection to that motion. It was put and agreed to. On the question being again put, that the Speaker do leave the chair, Mr. HUNT lied no wish to delay the House from go. mg into the Committee, but he felt called upon to say a ew mods after the observations of the Hon. Member far Dundalk. lie denied that there was any similarity be tween the National Union of Trades and the Correspond !rig Society of 1793 and 1791. There was a National Union of Trades, and of these some four or five delegates (tame up from different parts of the country with petitions which had been presented to the House; and if any of them attended at the meeting of the London Union, it was not from any connexion with them, for tl ere was no car r'spondence kept up between them. lie admitted that he was a radical Reformer, bur in being so he considered him -elf and those with whom he was connectil, as far as he knew them, as loyal as any Members of that House, ,ehether Reformers or otherwise. The Honourable Member then went on to contend that Ministers were not influenced by the petitions for annual Parliaments, universal suffrage, and vote by ballot, for they had intro {uced none of these into their Bill. But there was no riling in these inconsistent with the ancient principles it nor Constitution. They were, except the ballot, the sam e which the great Duk e of Richmond had introduced in his Bill into the House of Lords, but the Noble Duke forgot them when he was Master-General of ae Ordnance. He next contended, that nineteen out of twenty of the peo pl e in the country bad supported the Bill, not for the empty name of liberty, lent from the hope and belief that they would be relieved ley it from the burthens of t , xation ; and he would defy any Government to be able to go on af ter this NI passed, unless the people were relieved. Ad verting to the cry raised for " the Bill, the whole Bill, anti nothing but the Bill,'' he obset vett that there were parts of it now which no persons not in the secret of Ministers could unders'and. He hid no fears as to the consequences of the rejection of the Bill; but lie had hear—and was not afraid to state what he heard—that if it should be re jected, there would be a refusal to pay taxes in the country. There was no excitement among the people now in the emmtry—tleey were calmly discussing the measure, to which he admit'ed they were still warmly attached. The question was then put and carried, and the SPIA XER, leaving left the Chair, the House went into the Commit tee. In answer to a question front Mr. CaoKeit, it was stated, that the preamble had been postponed, and the Chairman then proceded to read the first clause, which is in the following words :—" Be it the, efore enacted, by the King's Mo.t Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice of the Lords Spiritual and TempFral, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the sane, that each of the Boroughs enumerated in Sche dule A, to this Act annexed, shall cease after the end of this prcsent Parliament to return any Members or Member to serve i❑ Parlimiet.t." Mr. C. WYNN hugged to draw attention to the great hiportance of this, the fast clause of the Bill. He had • several objections to it, which he thought possessed some weight, and the fist was to the form of words in which it commenced.—(hear.) No reason was stated for the disfranchisement of these boroughs, nor no cause shown why the should he selected from the other boroughs of the kingeoln.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord who introduced the Bill iota that House bad informed them, that the objec tions to the present system were not founded on any hos t:li y to the ancient form of representation, but on the lac', that the great and populous towns and cities, which had grown into importance since the first summoning of Mem bers of P rliatnent, were not entithl to participate in the tight of electing their representatives, and could not iu consequence of the Union with Scotland, be called on by the Royal sumtnonses to do so. If that Union had not taken pace, he was fully prepared to contend that such sumitioases might have ;soled ; and he had voted a gainst the giving represent 'lives to three of the large towns last si sqon, not li,icause lie disapproved of the mo tion, or was opposed to the principle, but because they woull by that means have added additional Members to that House when the number was already positively limited aiid ii,,b declared. ners, Ti R e ios.. had, however, come to a deter mination now, that the representative system must un dergo a great a lt erat i on , an d it was now become their d u ty to consider, if th e l arge t o wns were to be permitted to re.. turn n t t h o o h: ( 1% 1 e t ded b ers they ti lerlg inconvenienth could t make increase without any smo r s o t o o m for nunthers of the llouse.—( l kar.) The Noble Lord pro pose,' 1 5 do this in the Bill by taking away the franchise front the boroughs e numerat•-d in the clause. But how did be do it? The clause merely stated that each of the boning, there e numerated shall cease to send.—(Hear.) Not aword about the I eason w h y t h ey cease to Bend.— ( H ear.) Surely it should, at least, say, because they do not come within the rule of possessing 2,000 inhabitants. Now this brought him to the question connected with the principle of this clause ; for, as far us he recollected, the Noble Lord and his colleagues had ncvar fully explained to ( y .f had per s t o a n k s e taken out t): of t i n o b i e n r oft o hu 1 electors o as s t i t : l t iiee a lv l l:' l : c lY 7 l i e t:e 'vn r it'e v li v t ii ribt t i o 're b e select, d, or whether they felt they must disfranchise elsewhere., and had selected all the smallest boroughs to he sacrificed. It the Noble Lord was prepared io say that 2,000 inhabitants were the smallest numbers in which they could find a nucleus of three hundred 101. house holders fir the maintenance or their principle, then, he would IA them why they did not take the population