The Sun. — London, England, 1861-04-20 00:00:00

the spiritual head of the Catholics throughout the world, must remember that we have no regular diplomatic rela it cannot be desirable that her Majesty's Government should tions with Rome, and that the Pope would be apt to re take the initiative. (Hear, hear.) Not merely would such ceive any irregular communication with suspicion. He a proceeding involve us in discussions which we are not might very fairly say that on the political part of the ques the most capable of conducting, but any proposal that we tion we are not impartial, because we are determined at might make, even though the proposal might be good in almost any price to secure the unity of Italy; and that on itself, would not be likely to be received with favour by the the religious part of the question our interest as Pr . o- Catholic Powers of Europe. The noble earl pointed out I trust testants inclines us to regard with favour whatever will . the possibility, as he thinks, of some arrangement by weaken his power. But, my lords, means . may and m ind e e r p a e l n p d e e w n e c r e which the temporal sovereignty of the Pope might be dis- will be discovered for reconciling the connected from his spiritual authority, but the difficulties of the Holy See with the exercise I believe p that those which would beset such an agreement between the Catho- of the King of Italy in that territory. of a') i tl i e t e ua t e l government, order, tranquillity, lic Powers must be apparent to your lordships, and if, in means will be found in theop ov ra te ion rY Of time and in the pro addition, the question were to be discussed by the Protes. - gross of events, in the good g • of th e e countries adjacent to the about Powers, lam sure no ingenuity of man could bring and increasing prosperity ' Pope , and in his straitened growing dis. about a solution of the question. (Hear, hear.) For these dominions of the p o o p p e s e rl a ty nd above all in the e reasons, although her Majesty's Government certainly do content of the Pope's 0 subjects , . ..revenues, not view with satisfaction the continuance of a state of and in the impossibility f . his continuing to resist the pres sure from all sides. I think that the Pope might then no things in which the independence of one of the States of ea for the fullest and Italyd reest exercise of his spiritual Europe—l mean of those provinces which still remain nomi - gala-- - the King would indeed be most unwise zany under the authority of the Pope—is entirely at an end, andpower' notmeet if he did . of any such overtures from the Holy See in owing to the occupation of that territory by foreign troops, a_spirit h the kindest and most reverential liberality. I must yet decline to follow the noble lord through the dif ear.) Our efforts should be confined, as they ferent questions which he has raised. I cannot help observ- (li tfv e e ar , hitherto been, and as I am sure they will con ing that for many years the temporal authority of the Pope h . has altogether ceased to exist. Since the year 1849 the inde- tinue to be, to an endeavour to check the interven pendence of the Pope as a Sovereign has not existed for a tion of other P owers i n the affairs of Italy. We single hour. His authority, which had been destroyed by must never disguise our determination that the moral that movement in 1848, the full effects of which we are feel- influence of England will be used to prevent the restoration ing at the present day, was only restored by the troops of of Governments which must bring vengeance in their train, Prance and Austria. As long as those troops rem a i ne d i n and which can never c l a i m th e con fid ence and affection of his territory, the sovereignty of the Pope was nominally the people ; and must continue to do what we can, as it was sustained ; but on the day on which the Austrian troops left expressed in the Speech from the Throne, to secure for the the territory which they occupied, it ceased to be under even Italians liberty to manage their affairs for themselves. As the nominal authority of the Pope, and it is notorious that far as they have yet had an opportunity of doing so they on the day on which the French troops shall be withdrawn have shown remarkable prudence and moderation. (Hear.) from Rome the sovereigntyof the Pope will altogether cease For years past they have been reduced by oppressive Go bi every part of his dominions. It Is for this reason that the vernments and foreign bayonets to that state in which men solution of the question immediately depends upon whether are most unfit for a free constitution ; but during the last the French Governs/lent shall or shall not withdraw their Year and a half they have exhibited a patience, moderation, troops from Reme; and it is clear that, while the reasons and good sense which have exceeded the expectations of which may have induced the Emperor of the French to con- of their most enthusiastic friends. (Hear, hear.) The last tinue that occupation are reasons which it is not desirable general election has been conducted with so much peace that we should upon this occasion discuss in this house, and order, the people have displayed so much sound judg there are as the noble earl ha s p o i n t e d ou t, man y argumen t s ment in resisting the a pp ea l s ma d e t o th e i r pass i ons and in selecting the men whom they de eme d b est fitted to pr omo t e tendingto prove that it wou ld b e f ar b e tt er po li cy to with the national int eres t s , th a t, th oug h t h ere are many and draw tho se t roops . Her Majesty's Government have not dis . most formidable difficulti es y e t t o b e overcome, I think we wised their opinion that it i s d es i ra bl e th a t th ose t roops cannot feel otherwise than h o p e f u l th at b etter days are in should be withdrawn ; b u t it i s c l ear t h at t h ere are many store for Italy, and that she ma y ye t f u lfil h er d est i ny as an tholic Powers, and that altho ug h th e ma tt er h as b een other considerations which me e t h ave we i g ht w ith Ca united nation. (Hear.) I und ers t an d an d respect the desire much discussed, no one ha s y e t p o i n t e d ou t any means b y of many Roman Catholics, th a t th e supreme head of their Church should exercise, i n all its plenitude, his temp ora l which, after the withdraw a l o f th ose t roo p s , th e sp i r it ua l authority of the Popo can be reconciled with his new po- and spiritual power; but I agree with my noble friend the sition. Ido not say that that problem may not be solved, Under-Secretary that they are not justified in saying, either but it certainly is not for her Majesty's Government with regard to her Majesty's Government, or with regard to devise the means of such a reconciliation. It seems to the noble lord at the head of the Foreign Department, that a most erroneous idea prevails in some portions that the temporal or spiritual authority of the Pope has of her Majesty's dominions, and in other parts of Europe, been interfered with. We desire only to behold the subjects as to the part which her Majesty's Government have taken of his Holiness prosperous and contented, and we are not and are taking in these transactions ; because it is stated, debarred from looking at the Pope as one of the Sovereigns and it is believed, I suppose, by some persons, that the chief of Europe, and from seeing—what it is impossible we can object and end of the Government, especially of my noble close our eyes to—that he stands in a position different from friend who is at the head of the Foreign-office, has been to any other Sovereign, for he has, in fact, no temporal power put an end to the authority of the Pope. It is supposed that at all. He has delegated his power to other authorities, one he is the chief enemy of the head of the Catholic Church, in the capital and another in the provinces, who exer and that his aim throughout has been to undermine the cises it for him. There cannot be the slightest doubt authority of the Pope, and to place him in a situation in of what my noble friend the Under Secretary has said, that which that authority can no longer be maintained. All. I the moment that the pressure of foreign forces is with can say is that her Majesty's Government have carefully drawn the nullity of the Pope's, power will become manifest. abstained from taking a prominent part in the discussion of Nothing can be more certain than that the day when the ,those questions which especially affect the Pope. They take French army quits Rome the Pope's subjects will throw off a deep interest in everything which relates to the Italian their allegiance. The reason, it appears to me, why the Peninsula, and they have used their moral influence to secure Pope can never retain his temporal authority is, that his for the Italian people the opportunity of carrying out their subjects can never rely on the establishment of such a own views, but they have all along thought that it was not Government as shall justly command their obedience and for a Protestant Po wer t o t a k e a prominent part in the dis- loyalty. For this Ido n o t bl ame th e present Pope or any cession of questions rel a ti ng to the head of the Catholic of his predecessors, because, without destroying the basis on -Church. (Hear.) As regards the ether portions of the noble which the Papacy has always rested, and without departing earl's speech, I might be excused from entering at all upon altogether from the system which has prevailed for cen -.the very important and very varied topics which he has dis- tunes, I believe it to be impossible for any Pope to cussed, more especially upon that most important question grant those reforms which the spirit of the age and the as to the possession of Venetia by the Emperor of Austria. exigencies of the times require. Advice and warnings have My lords, all that I can say upon that matter is that her for the last 40 years been given to the Pope by the Catholic Majesty's Government are most anxious—as, anxious as the Powers of Europe, and the answer which has been returned noble earl can be—that peace should be maintained. (Hear, has in substance been invariably the same as that which hear.) The advice which they have given to each of the Cardinal Antonelli lately gave, to the Marquis de Gra parties is, not to be the assailant ; and la m con fid en t th at mont—Le Pape ne transigera jamais. The Pope will not he who is the assailant will not only incur a most grave an d grant those political reforms which he believes to be incon weighty responsibility, but will not receive the sympathy sistent with his spiritual rights. The Papacy is the purest which the party who is attacked will always command. A absolutism, and in all those questions which vitally affect great work has been begun and has been carried out in the social wellbeing of the people the Church claims to be Italy, and I cannot help hoping that those Italian statesmen the sole and exclusive judge, and never has consented, and - who now sway the destinies of that peninsula will be wise never will, to any compromise. (Hear, hear.) It is the enough to - see that time is required for the consolidation of custom in this country to regard the secularisation of the the fabric which they have constructed, and that if they Papal Government as the p anacea f or a ll the evils from can present to Europe th e spectacle of an united people, which the subjects of the Pope are now suffering ; but in peaceably working out their own independence, they will be the immutable and inevitable condition of the Papal Go doing more to promote the solution of those questions as to vernment such a process is impossible. A cardinal must _Rome and Venetia which they so ardently desire than they be Secretary of State, for he is the President of the Council ,could accomplish by any attempt to destroy the present of Ministers, the pivot, in fact, on which the whole ma- Aerritorial arrangements of Europe. (Cheers.) chinery of the Papal Government works. Ecclesiastical The Earl of CLARENDON, to whom the Earl of Derby Ministers are necessary at home, ecclesiastical agents gave way, said—Although I was fully prepared for the an- abroad. Civil causes must be tried before ecclesiastical swer which my noble friend has given to the noble earl tribunals. The Pope is himself at the head of the Inqui opposite, I cannot help expressing my satisfaction at learn- sition and cannot delegate his power to a layman. As the ing that her Majesty's Government have not been em- temporal must in all respects be subservient to the spiri ployed in matters where I think their interference would teal authority of a Sovereign, the Pope can grant no sub _he prejudicial, and my confident hope and expectation that etential reforms, and this alone would be an insurmountable . they wilt adhere to the same prudent policy of leaving the obsticle to the re-establishment of his temporal power .settlement of the Roman question, which is essentially a under a system of constitutional government. I think, Catholic question, to the Catholic Powers of Europe. At therefore, that the Pope must already see or will soon the same time, I must say that I entirely agree with the become sensible that his lost provinces can only be recovered noble earl opposite in the speech which has been listened to for him by a foreign army, and that his present territory with equal admiration on both sides of the house. I think can only be retained under his nominal authority by a that the Roman question is of vital importance to Italy, never-ceasing foreign occupation. That is simply impos and that Rome most certainly ought to be the capital of that sible, and I trust some means will be found of reconciling -country. If it be not, the differences between the various what is called " the inexorable logic of events" with the Mates will stand in the way of the unity of Italy, whereas personal independence and spiritual supremacy of the Pope. All the States would agree in choosing for the capital the I think, however, that we Protestants have nothing to do city of Rome, which combines all the requisites, historical, with an arrangement of so delicate a nature, which may religious, and local, for the capital of a great country, and safely be left to the operation of time. (Cheers.) which, moreover, has none of those municipal recollections The Earl of DERBY —Whatever falls from my noble which would interfere with the establishment of constitu- friend is well entitled to the attention of your lordships, Lionel government. But this can be effected only with the and I feel that we are indebted to him for the clear and consent of Frangkand in consequence of the convictions of manly statement which he has made. (Hear, hear.) He the Catholic Powers of Europe that, Rome being the capital has stated in the fullest and frankest manner what are his of Italy, the independence of the Pope can be secured, and own views on this important question. In some points I that the civil authorities would not interfere with spiritual entirely concur in the opinion of my noble friend. He has matters, or with the power and authority of the Church. laid down the principle that the rights of Austria over her I say that we could not interfere in such questions as these Venetian territories are as valid as the rights of any Sove -without prejudice to the result at which we desire to arrive ; reign over any portion of his dominions. (Hear, hear.) I we could not help to settle either of those questions which agree with him, and at the same time I concur with my must be solved before there is any chance of Rome being noble friend in thinking that the continued possession of constituted the capital of Italy. We may address ourselves that territory by Austria may be a source of constant diffi to the French Government; we may ex p ress our d es i re, i n culties and difference s b e t ween Austria and the Italian terms as earnest as those which have been employed kingdom, between whom it is most important that, if it be .4 the noble earl, that the French gar r i son s h ou ld b e possible, all causes of diff erence s h ou ld b e w i thdrawn, and that those States should b e un it e d i n th e b onds of harmony withdrawn from Rome; we may appal t o th e p r i nc i p l e o f non-intervention in the affairs of Italy whi c h was vo l un - and peace. (Hear.) I fu r th er concur w ith my no b le friend, and I am sure your l o rd s hip s w ill concur a l so i n th i nking, Wily adopted by th e E m p eror hi mse lf ; we may declare that as long as th e R oman quest i on i s unsettled Italy will that whatever may be our per s on a l f ee li ngs — w h a t ever we le unsettled, and that, as th e no bl e earl has said, the dan- may wish, whatever may be the sen ti men t s o f th e country ,ger of war will constantly b e i ncurre d ; b ut, argue as we —the Power which first resorts t o th e f ear f u l a lt ernat i ve of nay, we shall not be able to disguise from ourselves that war will incur an awful responsibility, and lose altogether 'the question of Rome is a French almost as much ae it the sympathies which, but for the means adopted, she would is an Italian question, and that, with the grave political otherwise command. (Cheers.) In the very few observations .snd religious considerations for France which it involves, which I shall make I shall confine myself exclusively to the the Emperor will claim to be the sole judge of what it is subject to which my noble friend's question more imme 'expedient to do in the interests of that country. (Hear, diately referred—the particular difficulty with which not we, 'ear.) It is perfectly true, as the noble earl has said, that but Europe has to deal, viz., the question of the Pope. And the expedition of 1849 was undertaken in order to repress I think I may congratulate your lordships and the country Alemocracy. It was a great error. It has proved a griev- that, whatever differences of opinion there ma be between sus misfortune to th e su bj ects of the rope, and continues us as to the final settlement w hi c h is desirable Y i with regard ;to be a sore embarrassme n t t o F rance. The French Go- to this Italian question, there is on all sides of the house— 'vernment were not slow in di scover i ng the error of that l am sure there is on this side, and I rejoice to hear there expedition, because even while the Pope was still at Gaeta is on the part of her Majesty's Government and on the part le positively rejected those admini s t ra ti ve reforms of th ose w h o represent more or less independent opinions, which were proposed to him and refused to return to Rome like my noble friend who has just sat down—one concurrent except in the plenitude of the most unrestricted power epinien, that with regard to the internal settlement of the which had been enjoyed by any of his predecessors. Upon Roman territory h er M a j esty ' s Government is not only that condition he returned. With that condition he ha s justified but required to maintain the principle of the tolerated no interference, and for the past 12 years the strictest non-interference. (Cheers.) I entirely concur in French army has been the Roman police, the passive spec- what f was stated by the noble lord the Under Secretary of tators of acts which they have reprobated, and the respon- State the for Foreign Affairs, and confirmed by the expression esible protectors of the worst Government in Europe. I be- of tat ifepanin t o hi ns a, of my noble friend who had just sat down, lieve that the humiliation of the position of the French army of this question y eitweroe would d anted to complicate the difficulties set Rome has long been felt by the Emperor. (Hear, hear, t cstant country—takingwu be the fact of England —a Pro ,from Lord Derby.) I believe t'. it his desire to withdraw settle the affairs of the lora an an ue S active part in endeavouring to Shat army is perfectly sincere. There is abundant evidence (Cheers.) So strongly have I always felt upon this question a that in the papers which have b e en laid before the French i the Government with whichl I had dn that at the ti me w h en the ho nour to b e con- Chambers, and in those deepatches of M. Thouvenel which d using all their efforts t o pre vent the war which netted were France and A us t r i a, we sit the time they were written, were cer t a i n ly no t i n tended b k unfortunately roe• out • between . for publication. I b e lieve th a t t h e Emperor perm i tte d unfortunately pressing both parties to endeavour to co me t o some fieneral Lamoriciere to take serv i ce w i t h the Pope i n the expectation that ha would orgauise, a f orce suff i c i ent terms of agreement with the very object which the question has in view—namely, of reconciling the spiritual supre . to maintain tranquillity, without f ore i gn a i d to secure the personal safety of the public, and to repress the rnft(tY and authority of the Pope with the general peace and just discontent of the Pope's subj ec t s ; an d th at i f G enera l tranquillity of Italy. Th e f orma ti o n of a kingd om o f I taly Garibaldi' s expedition to Sicily had b een d e l aye d f or ano th er was not then contemplated by an y one , but in g i v i ng our month, the French garr i son wou ld h ave b een w i thdrawn advice we did not hesitate t o s ay that the Catholic P owers were particularly, and especially the Governments, bound t o from R ome . B u t, h av i ng re f erence to the events which have deal with the Roman question, a n d that, while we w ou ld Mace occurred, p ar ti cu l ar l y considering the feelings and Z i nions which have rece n tly b een man if este d i n the French 1 giveo every assistance, we felt that to place ourselves in th e ._ tirst line would n o t o n ly b e o bj ec ti ona bl e i n p o int of prim cio' "'allge whi c h notor i ously exists at Rome, I think that the tubers, and th e na t ura l i mpat i ence of the existing state ciple, but a serious i m p e di men t t o th e p ra ctical success of ~;_ -eonaeror of the French to any undertaking or any effort to bring about a settlement. withdraw at garri s onmay well say that if he were now __ . (Hear.) Therefore, I cordially assent to the principle laid Trance but Catholic from Rome, not alone Catholic down by the noble lord the Under Secretary of State—that Europe would hold him personally re- this is Aponsible for any Sustain. (llcar.)3i in,alt or injury which the Pope might this is a question in which it is not expedient for this coun. the Emperor will usay' therefore, that we may be sure that try to interfere either by diplomacy or by negotiations. hoar sooner than hootthwithdraw his forces from Rome one (Cheers.) We arc less likely to do gold than to do harm by and expedien t for Pranc e that it will be safe for himself • such interference—(hear)—a n d I rejoice to hear from the do se-a -unless, indeed, the Pope noble lord that her Maje,ty's Government have not engaged were spun tencously te til t : ,of Italy, and to the inst all :ll, to Rome becoming the capital ' in any such negotiations or any such correspondence. Government and Parliaments airilidthat city of the Italian (Cheers) Nevertheless. I roust be permitted to say that I look upon this Roman question as one which as long as it that by measures to and Were spontaneously to announce remains unsettled must keep unsettled the prospect of en 11 had assent d his own independence would be secured, and ti le •• ' retaining (Hear.) r)lt is privileges and peace. a . a question of the greatest s of the Church would be p reoarrd po vier u.ndiminished, difficulty and of the greatest delicacy. It would be a ques such an event is im 'No one can say that Posinble. N o one tion of no difficulty whatever were we dealing with it is hi , lily improbable, but I certain - o nly a can deny that , e would render i t a still Any interference on our part(Hear.) I cannel: more nn- and embarrassment when we are dealing with one :who likely, if not impossible. e'er,: with the unites in his own person the capacities of a temporal Sove occupation of tioble earl opposite that the that theme by th® reign and of the spiritual head of another Church. (Hear.) Trench army is unpopular. I belie v e .more we I must also be permitted to say that it is not a matter of in " the more it will be believed that we difference to • press for its cessation this country, as regards English interests, in more difficult will what have some selfish object in view, and the his position the Pope should stand. It has ever been the troops, We principle o f It become for the Emperor to withdraw British policy that the head of the Roman Emperor THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 20, 1861. Church should be independent. It is a matter of the utmost consequence to this country that he, to whose spiritual authority and power large numbers of our fellow-country men, as well as many millions of our fellow Christians in other parts of the world, give a ready and willing obedience —that he who claims at their hands that obedience and those obligations of duty should be himself in a position in dependent to act, free from the dictation and control of any foreign !Power- , which, by maintaining that authority in his hands, which it is very difficult to separate within the limits of spiritual and temporal authority, may be exercising an amount of authority extremely dangerous to the wellbeing and safety of this country. (Cheers.) Let no man suppose that it is a matter of indiffer ence to us whethar the Pope is an independent prince or not. The extent of his temporal power is a matter wholly and entirely distinct from his independence. Indeed, my noble friend adverted to the possible idea that, while wishing to put an end to the present state of things, some Protestant object might be served by some weakening of the spiritual power of the Pope. I confess that, if I were de sirous of destroying or injuring that spiritual power, I should think I could do nothing so effectual for the object as to promote a continuance of the present state of things. (Hear, hear.) I cannot conceive a position more embarrassing to Europe, more painful to conscientious Roman Catholics, or more painful to the Pope himself, than the self-contradic tory position in which he is at this moment placed. My noble friend who has just sat down, and also the noble lord the Under-Secretary of State, have pointed out that for many years the Pope has not possessed any temporal power, in the way in which we speak of it with regard to other Sove reigns. He is maintained in his temporal authority in oppo sition- to the will of the vast majority of the people over whom his rule extends, by the intervention and presence of foreign troops. If this were the case of a temporal Sove reign we should be justly entitled to call on France at once to cease that intervention, which in the case of a temporal Sovereign would be absolutely indispensable, to withdraw her troops and to leave Italy for the Italians and Rome for the Romans. (Hear, hear.) But in the case of the Pope, where the interests of religion are supposed to be at stake, he must at all events be protected and maintained in such sovereignty and in such state as he can enjoy under the support and dominion of foreign Powers. Until some solu • tion can be found for the difficult question raised by my noble friend it is impossible, whatever may be the objec tions felt by Europe, whatever may be the objections felt by France herself, whatever may be the sense of embarrass ment—and I have no doubt the Emperor himself labours under a great sense of embarrassment—it is impossible, I say, to urge France to withdraw that protection which she at present affords, and it would be useless and worse than useless—it would be idle and criminal—to urge the Emperor to adopt measures which at the present we know he cannot adopt. (Hear, hear.) Only look at what took place in the Legislative Council the other day. Five deputies only, I believe, supported the withdrawal of the French troops. The whole body of public opinion in France is that the Pope must be maintained in independence, and so long as he can be maintained by no other Power it is the duty of the eldest son of the Church, as the Emperor is termed, to maintain the Pope in his authority. (Hear, hear.) 1 will not express so strong an opinion as my noble friend behind me, or even as my noble friend opposite, with regard to the absolute necessity of Rome being the capital of the Italian Kingdom. I confess I concur in the opinion, which is stated in papers laid before your lordships as the original view of the Secre tary of State for Foreign Affairs, that, desiring the indepen dence of Italy, he thought it would be infinitely better effected by the formation of two separate kingdoms. I maintain that opinion now, and I believe that although it sounds very well to speak of the unity of Italy, the diffi culty of accomplishing that object would have been infi nitely less, and the prospect of ultimate success infinitely greater, if the mode adopted had been the formation of a Northern and Southern: kingdom—in which case the Roman question would have been easy of solution, because Rome would have laid between the two, and not been, as at present,. the centre of the United Kingdom. As there is one Italian kingdom, I heartily hope and earnestly desire that the union may not be a formal but a real and practical union. At the same time, notwithstanding the moderation displayed and the self-sacrifices made, I cannot but see the greatest difficulties in the consolidation of this union. I cannot look to the state of Naples at the present moment with satisfacticn. Ido not believe that if the people of Naples and:Sicily had been left to themselves they would have desired to be associated and subjugated. (Hear.) I do not say they would have desired a continuance of their then existing monarchy—but, if the former dynasty had been well advised and had acted in time, that Government might have been established on a satisfactory and sound basis, and I believe the :monarch might have continued in amity and friendship with the constitutional monarch of the North of Italy, not interfering with the exceptional jurisdiction of the Pope in whatever remained of the Roman territory. That, in my opinion, would have been a more practical solution of the question, and would have avoided many of the difficulties which must be encountered in the present state of affairs. (Hear.) Nothing can,be more natural, if there is to be an united Italy, than that the Italians should desire to have Rome for their oapital. There are a thousand considerations which lead to that. But the very fact of that necessity enhances to an infinite degree the difficulty of coming to any solution with regard to the independence of the Pope, because, diminish his territory as you will, if he is to be independent at all, he must exercise absolute authority, and he must have uncon trolled dominion over that territory; he must have a provi sion made for him sufficient to maintain not only the dignity and splendour, but the practical utility of his office. (Hear, hear.) He may have the guarantee of the Catholic Powers of Europe—and that is an arrangement which I should pre fer—but he must obvipusly within his own limits be uncon trolled master of his own movements, he must be able to act without being subject even to the suspicion of being con trolled and overborne by any foreign Power. (Hear.) My noble friend has brought the question of the temporal power of the Pope to a reductio ad absurdum. He stated, and stated truly, that without the aid of a foreign Power no Government can be maintained which is not in accordance with public feeling and public opinion, and that no laws can be maintained which are not in accordance with the spirit of the times and the extension of popular rights, and then he goes on to argue that such extension of popular rights is inconsistent with temporal power ti the Pope. The reductio is very obvious—that the maintenance of the temporal power of the Pope as a sovereign —I mean reigning over anything which may be dignified by the title of a territory—in the present state of Europe, is morally impossible. But suppose it to be morally possible, I can truly say that, if I were a conscientious Catholic as I am a conscientious Protestant, I should feel the deepest pain and the deepest mortification at the position in which the head of that Church at the present moment finds himself. If the maintenance of his temporal power is essential to his spiritual authority, and if he finds that the exercise of that temporal authority at every point comes into opposition and collision with the feelings and wishes and desires of his subject, I can con ceive no heavier blow which could be aimed at the spiritual authority than that it should ba supported by acts utterly at variance with the feelings of the people. (Hear, hear.) If I were a devoted servant of the See of Rome, I would say, "Bring the See of Rome • into harmony with the people of Italy and with the Catholic feelings of the world ; away with the temporal sovereignty and the temporal possessions, the cares of -which and the respon sibilities of which necessarily, according to my noble friend, bring the Papacy into daily conflict with the feel ings and wishes of the people; but let him maintain that in dependence which it is absolutely necessary the head of the Church should possess, and let that be secured, in such a manner as may seem best, separate from the temporal power —by which I mean reigning as a sovereign over a certain extent of territory." (Hear, hear.) The two might be easily reconciled, and in that manner alone can I conceive it pos sible to devise an arrangement of this difficult question. How it is to be arrived at Ido not pretend to say. Tt is a difficulty with which, however much we may desire to see it settled, we in this country have no means of dealing. For the solution of it we must look to the feelings of the Catholic powers of Europe generally, and to the growing conviction which must force itself upon the mind of the Sovereign Pontiff—if, indeed, he has a right sense of the superior importance of the spiritual authority over the main tenance of the temporal power. We can trust to nothing except the conviction on the part of the Catholic Powers and the Papal See that such a solution is the only one by which the spiritual authority can be reconciled with its tempera independence. But I concur that the less this Protestant country interferes, the more it leaves it to the Catholic Powers of Europe, and the more it abstains from interfer- once and intervention, while at the same time it does not close its eyes to the importance of maintaining the real in dependence of the Sovereign Pontiff, the better is the pros pect of arriving at the solution which we all desire, however difficult it may be of attainment. (Hear, hear.) The subject then dropped, and their lordships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. Mr. H. LEWIS took the oaths and his seat on his elec tion for the borough of Marylebone. PRIVATE BUSINESS The Neath Water Bill was considered . and ordered for third reading; and the Edgware, Highgate, and London Railway was read a second time. ABERDEEN BOROUGH. Mr.. H. VIVIAN moved an address for a copy of two reports made by Captain Donolly to the Lords of her Ma jesty's Coußcil, on the subject of the petition of the inhabi tant householders of the borough of Aberdeen, praying fur a municipal charter.—Ordered. NEW WRIT. On a motion of Mr. BRAND a writ was ordered to issue for the election of member for the borough of Southwark la the room of Mr. John Locke, who had accepted th e situ• lion of Recorder of Brighton. STREET RAILWAYS. Mr. BRADY gave notice of a motion for the appoint ment of a select committee on this subject. RELIGIOUS PERSECUTIONS IN SPAIN. Sir R. PEEL asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had any objection to state to the house the nature of the communications which had passed be tween Sir A. Buchanan and the Spanish G6vernment, with reference to the recent persecutions in Spain ? Lord J. RUSSELL said there had been a• epraratulica tion with the Spanish Government on this subject, and made scene :other statements, which were not audible in the gallary, from the low tsne in which the noble lord spoke. THE MANAGER OF THE MARYBORO' DIS TRICT LUNATIC ASYLUM. Mr. DUNNE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland when the decision of the Lord Lieutenant with regard to the manager of the Maryboro' District Lunatic Asylum would be carried into effect ; and whether the manager, when removed, would be appointed to any other asylum? Mr. CARDWELL said that an inquiry had been made into this subject, and the result was that it was determined to remove: the official in question, which would be done shortly. • CONVICT REFORM IN IRELAND. On the motion for the adjournment of the house at its rising until Monday, Mr. W. EWART inquired of the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the system introduced by Captain Crofton into Ireland for the discipline and reform of convicts would be taken into the consideration of the Government. Mr. CLIVE said that any advantage resulting from the reform in question by Capt. Crofton would be considered by the Government. INDIA. Mr. LAYARD asked the Secretary of State for India whether a bill had been introduced into the Legislative Council of India to enforce contracts for the delivery of agricultural produce ? He expressed pleasure at seeing the right hon. gentleman (Sir C. Wood) in his place. He be lieved the question to which he drew the attention of the house was one of extreme importance, and if he was correctly informed, our countrymen in India were guilty of the most reprehensible conduct. Last year there was an outbreak in Bengal in consequence of the proceedings relative to the question of indigo cultiva tion in that presidency. A bill was then introduced into the Indian legislature, which rendered the breach of contract in the cultivation of indigo punishable by fine or three months' imprisonment. The cultivation of indigo was promoted by the system of advances, and the effect of this system enabled the planters to act in the most oppressive manner towards the ryots, who were the owners of the soil. An inquiry had been made into the subject, and 4,000 answers were obtained from different witnesses who were qualified to give correct information, who had made a report, from the perusal of which he had risen with mingled feelings of horror, indignation, and dismay which he could not ex press. (Hear, hear.) The law in question was en trusted to young magistrates in many cases, and it armed the planters with a power which they exercised most ex tensively, and the consequence was that numbers of the unfortunate ryots were imprisoned or fined for a failure in the fulfilment of their contracts. The hon. member then read extracts from the statements of Mr. John Peter Grant, Lieutenant-General of India, and other resident authorities in India to show that the result of the system was to inflict the grossest injustice, and he contended that unless some alteration took place there were grounds for apprehending an outbreak in Southern Bengal. In re gard to this act there was great want of faith towards the natives„ for when it was first passed it was with the distinct understanding that it was to continue only for six months. However, it was reintroduced last March, and he strongly condemned this policy, which had only for its object the benefit of a few planters in Southern Bengal, and was calculated to render this country hateful to the in habitants. Mr. VANSITTART asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention had been drawn to the report of the Indigo Commission, with the minutes of evidence taken before them, and appendix, dated Calcutta, April 27th, 1860; and, if so, whether he has taken any steps to carry out the recommendations contained therein. He said he had gone carefully through this report, and contended that the planters were exonerated from the charges brought against them. In his opinion the conduct of Mr. Grant was most objectionable, for he threw the whole weight of his authority into the scale against the planters. He said that in many cases the ryots were a money getting body, and were in many cases ab sentees, and they induced their fellow-ryots to act in such a manner that the planters were unable to meet their liabilities, and their pro perties were sold. He could not see the policy of acting in a hostile manner towards the planters in India, to whom the zemindars and ryots were indebted for much improve ment, and this country in a considerable degree for the maintenance of its power in that country. He referred to the testimony of several competent authorities in India to show that the planters were the friends of improvement and progress, and that instead of being open to censure they were entitled to the greatest praise. Mr. KINNAIRD asked the Secretary of State for India whether he had received a copy of the correspon dence regarding the cultivation of indigo, between the Government of India and the Government of Bengal, which took place between July and November, 1860; also of the correspondence connected with the issue of the Indigo Proclamation, dated September, 1860; and, whether he had any objection to lay the same on the table of the house. He defended the statements of the hon. member (Mr. Layard), and he expressed a hope that the house and the Government would not blind themselves to the emergency that bad arisen in India in reference to the question. The facts stated by his hon. friend (Mr. Layard) could be proved, and it could be shown that the cultivation of indigo was impolitic and oppressive. He trusted the papers for which ho asked would be produced, and that justice would be done to the unfortunate ryots. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE referred to the debates on the subject in the Indian Legislative Council, to show that the statements of the hon. member fin : Southwark (Mr. Layard) were not justified by facts. He also passed a eulogium on the planters, who, he argued, were not inferior to any other j body of her Majesty's subjects. Mr. H. SEYMOUR said that the greatest injury would be inflicted on India and this country by the expulsion of the planters ; and for that reason he felt bound to differ with his hon. friend (Mr. Layard). Sir C. WOOD said that the majority of the papers ap plied for were already on the table of the house: He agreed in what had been said in praise of the planters, but at the same time he agreed that there was truth in the statement of the hon. member for Southwark. He did not approve of the renewal of the act in question, and he did not think there should be special legislation in regard to indigo, the forced cultivation of which was impolitic. He condemned the Principle of contracts in regard to the cultivation of indigo, and believed that in enforcing that system great injustice was inflicted ; bed-ridden, blind, and deaf ryots having been imprisoned for breach of contract, which, from their condition, they could not fulfil. He believed a very serious crisis had arisen in Lower Bengal, and he regretted extremely the introduction of the bill alluded to into the Legislative Council of India, as he considered it a great mistake, no case having been made out to justify the Legislature in in. terfering in regard to the cultivation of indigo in India. ATTENDANCE OF VOLUNTEERS -AT ELECTIONS. Gen. PEEL said—The question lam about to put to the noble lord the member for Tiverton arises out of a report which I have seen in the newspapers respecting the election for the borough of Tiverton. The report stated that the elec tion was fixed for 2 o'clock at the Town-hall, but that long before that hour the streets were crowded, and they were enlivened by the Tiverton Rifle Corps, and Lord Palmerston was escorted by them from his hotel, the Three Tuns, to the hustings at the Town-hall. My object in asking this question is to prevent a precedent being established upon what, in my opinion, was a very novel and most improper proceed ing; and I hope to hear from the noble lord an assurance that orders will be issued from the War-office to prevent, in future, the appearance of volunteers at elections. (Hear.) I, myself, should be prepared to go much further, and to say that with the exception of drill and exercise, and every thing connected with them, I should like to see the volun teers prevented from appearing in arms without the consent of the lords-lieutenant of their different counties. (Hear.) I think it ought to be left to the volunteers themselves to decide to whom military honours were to be paid, but I think the house will agree with me that their appearance at elections is undesirable and improper. (Hear.) We know the objections which exist to the appearance of regular troops at elections; those objections are much stronger with regard to volunteers, who might be actuated by local and party feelings, and who moreover were not subject to the discipline of regular troops, which can alone render it safe to allow the presence of armed men in crowded assemblies. (Hear.) I may be told that this was not a contested elec tion, and that the only object of the volunteers was to pay a mark of respect to a very distinguished individual, and whose connection with Tiverton was a great honour to it ; and if this had not been an election;so far from complaining I should be one of the very first to approve of what they had done; and I can assure the noble lord that it is out of no disrespect to him I make these remarks. (Hear.) But to say that an election is not to be a contested election before the question has been put by the returning officer was hardly possible. - How do we know that Mr. Rowcliffe may not have been intimidated? (Hear.) I own that a man of his nerve is not very likely to be intimidated, but still a man of less strong nerves might have been intimidated, and felt unable to act up to what be considered to be his duty at that oppoi tunity. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had put it to the volunteers whether the army was to be reduced, and was met with loud cries of " No, no." (Laughter.) Ido not say that much harm was occa sioned by the presence of the volunteers on that occasion, but I wish to prevent a recurrence of such an event. I trust the house will agree with me that this is a question which ought not to be passed over in silence--(hear) —and I hope some steps will be taken to prevent its recurrence. (Hear.) If the volunteers have the right to support one man they have the right to support another; and what would be the case supposing a popular colonel of a volunteer force were to become a candidate in a locality with which he and his corps were connected ? (Laughter.) I mean no disrespect by these remarks to the noble lord—(hear)—l mean no disrespect to the volunteers. (Hear, hear.) No man can feel more interest than I do in the volunteer move- ment, because I am responsible for having reeommended the acceptance of their services, which had been refused by the previous Government, but I certainly wish to see lima course on account of the sensitiveness of the Spanish Go vernment. The noble lord said that the Spanish Govern. ment were most anxious—he (Sir R. Peel) believed the noble lord said that Marshal O'Donnell and also the Mini ster of Justice were most anxious—to give every liberty to the exercise of political rights in that country; but the fact was that these persons who call themselves Spanish Pro testants ware men who held socialist principles, and were about to attempt to establish a republic in Spain. But the indictment against these men stated that they were being punished solely on account of their religious convictions. It was no doubt extremely easy for the noble lord to have this clever answer put into his mouth. But why did not the Spanish Government try these poor people? (Hear.) They were now treated worse than if they had been mur derers and thieves. They were called heretics solely on account of their religious opinions, and on this ground were excluded from all intercourse with their families. He (Sir R. Peel) had letters from many of these people, which if read would draw tears from the eyes of hon. members, stating that they were positively dying, and praying that the Government would bring them to trial. And these persecutions ware extending. (Hear.) At Seville some 20 or 30 men were taken up who had merely assembled to gether for the discussion of newspapers and pamphlet's of that kind. The rest were discharged, but two of them were thrown into prison. These acts were an insult to the 19th century. It was high time that the noble lords the mem bers for Tiverton and for London should, from their ante cedents on this question, show some spirit, and tell the Spanish Governme n t h ow th ey l oo ked upon this subject. They should ha ve th e mora l coura ge to tell the Spanish , Government that this conduct was quite incompatible with the liberal feelings of modern Europe. Until the other day the Austrian Government was the most arbitrary Go vernment in Europe on religious questions. The concor dat made with Rome was supposed to be one of the most extreme documents ever published in Europe ; but on the Bth of April last the most complete liberty had been given to the Protestant religion throughout the Austrian dominions. N4w here were the Spaniards con tinuing in this dreadful course of persecution, and the noble lord got up in the House of Commons and pretended to say that these men were suffering not from any question of faith, but solely because they were connected with secret societies whose principles were subversive of the authority of the Government in Spain. Jord J. RUSSELL (interposing) said he had never stated that these men were suffering in consequence of their belonging to secret societies ; nor did he say that the alle gation of belonging to secret societies was justly applicable to these persons. What ho had said was that the Spanish Government declared they would have been glad to release these men, who were imprisoned, as his hon. friend justly remarked, in consequence of their not agreeing in the doc trines of the Roman Catholic faith, but that they could not do so, because, since they were in prison, certain secret societies had been discovered, who were endeavouring to bring about the establishment of a republic in Spain. There was no allegation that the persons imprisoned had them • selves been members of secret societies. Sir R. PEEL continued. Then why were these men not brought to trial ? (Hear, hear.) The noble lord knew that this was an allegation which was always brought against men who did not conform to the established religion. He could assure the noble lord, on the faith of these men, that they were in no way connected with any political movement in their country. He charged the Spanish Government with the most direct perversion of the truth in saying that these men were in any way connected with secret societies in Spain. These poor men were suffering the most bitter punishment ever inflicted on criminals of the worst descrip tion, and he hoped her Majesty's Government would act in the matter as they did in 1853 and 1852, and endeavour to represent to the Spanish Government that these persecu tions solely on account of religious principles, were wholly incompatible with the feelings not only of this country, but of the whole of Europe. BRITISH CONSULS AT SHANGHAI AND JAPAN. Col. SYKES rose to call attention to a consular notifi cation, dated Shanghai, Feb. 8, 1861, and to ask the Secre tary of State for Foreign Affairs what circumstances had occasioned this notification; and to ask on what grounds the consul-general in Japan had abandoned his position at the capital ? Lord J. RUSSELL said that, before he adverted to the questions put to him by his hon. friends who had last spoken, he would advert to the answer which he had given to a question put to him last evening (Thursday), respect ing the sums payable for the Chinese indemnity. He wished to state, with regard to the sum which had been actually received, and the sum which we were entitled to receive—. first, that he had ascertained the sum which had been ac tually received to be not £650,000, as he had stated, but £212,000; and secondly, that the sum which we were en titled to receive was 2,000,000 taels, or £650,000. With re gard to the question of his hon. and gallant friend near him (Colonel Sykes), it was quite sufficient to state that Mr. Meadows, the consul at Shanghai, last year asked for further assistance, and that the Government gave it. In February last his health failed him, and he then said he was not equal to the performance of the duties of the office, and that he should confine himself to the mere routine duties for the present, leaving to the second consul the more active duties. He regretted that Mr. Meadows was not in good health, because he was a most deserving officer, and he, in common with his hon and gallant friend appre ciated his services. With regard to the statements which his hon. and gallant friend had made, he would merely ob serve that they had belonged to the arrangements made some time ago by which the Custom house duties were col lected by Europeans. It was supposed that such a system would prevent a great many abuses which prevailed amongst those in the service of the Chinese Government at the vari ous ports. Whether the arrangements had been completely fulfilled he could not state at present ; but he should not propose to put an end to them. As to the anarchy which was said to prevail in some places in China, it did not sur prise him, because for many years past the Chinese empire had been in a very weak state, and those in the administra • tion of affairs had shown how feebly they managed them. The British Government had not attempted to prevent it, but they had endeavoured to prevent wrongs being com mitted against British subjects in the Chinese empire. He could not discover what course his hon. and gallant friend wished the Government to pursue. What they had done was to acknowledge the existing Government of China, and between that Government and the Taepings her Ma jesty's Government had remained neutral, but they had de fended Shanghai against an attack of the Taepings simply because it contained the property of British subjects. They had not defended, nor had any intention of defending, the Chinese authority against the Taepings. (Hear.) His hon. and gallant friend had also asked on what grounds the con sul-general in Japan had abandoned his position at the capital. The reason for his doing so was contained in the despatch which the consul had written and sent to the British Minister of Japan, and which he (Lord J. Russell) would have no objection to lay upon the table of the house. The circumstances were shortly these :—For a considerable time there had prevailed at Jeddo a system of intimidation towards the foreign Ministers, and though not counte nanced by the Japan Government, yet they allowed it to proceed, and in the end a servant of the French Minister was murdered, and no redress could be obtained. Some time afterwards the secretary of the American consul was mur.• dered, and when that took place, the foreign Ministers met, and asked the Japan Government for redress, but none was afforded to them. Nothing, in fact, was done, but when the foreign Ministers proposed to attend the funeral procession of the murdered secretary to the grave, the Japan Govern ment said it would very likely lead to a general massacre of the foreign Ministers, and that they could not protect them: Although that threat was held out, the foreign Ministers did attend the funeral, and they subsequently held a meet ing for the purpose of considering the course which they ought to pursue, and they asked that full protection should be given to them and all persons trading at Jeddo. The resolution was acted upon by the British, French, and Russian ministers, and the Turkish consul, and they left Jeddo, but the American consul did not agree in the resolu tion, and he remained at Jeddo. The Foreign Ministers had not broken off relations with the Government of Japan. There had been no rupture of friendly relations, the Minis ters had simply removed themselves to a place where the men-of-war would protect them from danger, and there they would remain until relations should have been placed on a more satisfactory footing. He had no objection to pro duce the papers, but he should prefer to wait for a time longer for further accounts before doing so. (Hear.) He observed that there was a question at the end of the paper as to " whether he had received any information respecting:the case of a British subject, the owner of the cargo of the Mio Teo, and the alleged injustice and injury to which ho had been subjected, with the sanction of the Spanish authorities of Poi t Mahon, in the Island of Minorca." Now that was a question entirely for the Spanish tribunals, and the law officers of the Crown could not properly interfere in the pre sent stage of the business. He (Lord J. Russell) must take notice of what had been said by the hen. baronet the mem.• ber for Tamworth with regard to the religious persecutions of certain persons in Spain. He had merely stated what were the allegations of the Spanish minister, and he begged leave to remark that he did not attempt to justify all those allegations. (Hear, hear.) The Spanish Minister never said that those persons were not in prison, or that they were connected with certain republican societies. Far from it. But what he said was that they were persons who had been condemned to a period of imprisonment for allowing a form of religious worship, not authorised, in their houses. They were not charged with being members of a secret society. It was said by the Spanish minister that he should be glad to give British subjects every kind of indulgence compatible with the law, and that he should also be glad to appeal to the Crown for a pard on f or th ose p ersons who were suffer ing from expressing their religious opinions; but at that moment there were a number of religious societies scattered over Spain which were connected with republican socie ties, and therefore the law must take its course. That statement might be good or bad; he (Lord J. Rus• sell) was merely responsible for stating that such were the allegations of the Spanish Government. With regard to the subject no one could for a moment doubt that, holding the opinions he did, he must be in favour of religious liberty, and opposed to religious intolerance. But at the same time he could not instruct the agents of this country to inculcate his views in every part of the world. (Hear, hear.) He would refer to an incident which happened last year, and from which he trusted the cause of religious liberty was in some degree promoted. There were two Governments in Mexico•—the Church Government and the constitutional Government, and the Governments of France, Spain, and Britain wished to mediate between them. The Government of France did not agree with him because he would not recommend anything unless the principle of religious liberty was acceded to. The consti tutional Government had established itself, and the prin ciple of religious liberty had been proclaimed. He should have opposed everything tending to intolerance, and pro• meted the view of religious liberty for every man in Mexico. But with regard to the Spanish Government, they knew well all the hon. baronet' had recommended—viz., that he should let them know the principles which the Government of her Majesty professed, and that those which the Govern • ment of Spain sanctioned were wholly opposed to the feel• ings of right thinking people in these enlightened time s . (Hear.) He stated this to a deputation which waited upon him, and the Spanish Government knew what he then stated, but if he were to make an official representation, on the subject the Spanish Government might say, " Our prin ciples may be right or wrong, but that is nothing to you, we have a right to maintain our own laws and our own con stitution." There was an article contained in the„Spanish constitution which was quite repugnant to his feelinsaAtld opinions, but, at the samo time he must use a certain de gree of discretion in treating with an independent Govern ment. Ile begged the house to believe that if he did not interfere Actively on this subject it was not because he was not in favour of religious liberty being fully practised throughout the world. (Hear, hear.) In answer to the question of the hon. member for Glasgow (Mr. Buchanan) he wished to observe that he had not been able to find any irelieved from occupying that p os iti on w hi c h th ey occup i e d at the late ele c ti on f or th e b oroug h o f Ti verton. The ques tion. I wish to put is to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if it be true that at the recent election for Tiverton he was escorted to the hustings by the Tiverton Volunteer Rifles, and if it is the intention of the Government to sanction the attendance of volunteers with their arms at elections ? Lord PALMERSTON, who on rising was received with cheers, said—l am sure, sir, I have no ground of complaint nor have the Tiverton volunteers any reason to complain of the manner in which the right hon. and gallant gentleman has asked this question. (Hear.) I quite admit that as a general principle it is quite improper that armed bodies should participate in elections. I do certainly remember that on the occasion of an election for Sligo some few years ago the police were put in confinement, the militia were or. dered:out of the town, and the regular troops were brought in merely to insure the freedom of election. ( Laughter.) That was an exceptional case. The statement which the hon. and gallant officer has made is quite true. The fact is, that when I was going from the hotel to the court-house I found that the Tiverton Volunteers, who are a fine body of men—and it would do the hon. and gallant gentleman's soldier-heart good to see them, both on account of the fineness of the men, their precision of step and accu rate movements, wished to accompany me to the court house with their band; and I really thought that as there was no contest and no probability of one, it would be a piece of political prudery on my part to iefuse, and I therefore accepted the honour which they proposed to do me. (Hear, and laughter.) Now as to intimidation, the right hon. and gallant gentleman says that even Mr. Rowcliffe might be a candidate, although as far as he knows he was not likely to be intimidated. But I say, notwithstanding our occasional sparring matches, he is a free-born Briton— " Si fractus illabatur orbis Impavidum ferient ruinm," —(cheers)—and that he was the last man to be intimidated by the Tiverton Volunteers. Well, that was the case. I should state, however, that although the volunteers marched with me to the court-house, they went and deposited their arms in the usual place, and appeared at the election, though in uniform, as part of the unarmed population of the town. After the election they marched with me back to the hotel, and in the evening when I left the town they insisted on accompanying me on the first stage—(a laugh)—and while I was waiting for the train at the Tiverton Junction station, they performed admirably several military movements, and gave me two volleys. (Laughter.) With reference to the last question of the right hon. and gallant gentleman, I believe it is the intention of Lord Herbert to send a circular letter to the lords .lieutenant of counties, stating that it is not advisable that the volunteers should take part in any way in elections. (Cheers.) SALES OF LAND IN NEW ZEALAND. Mr. HOPE wished to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it was intended to endeavour to institute a tribunal in New Zealand to decide upon conflict ing claims of natives in cases of proposed sales of land by them to the Government. Mr. C. FORTESCUE said there was no native tribunal in New Zealand, and no English court which took cogni sance of those transactions. It was true there were Eng lish courts of law in New Zealand, but they found them selves incompetent to take notice of those sales of land. The practice therefore had been that the Government acted by direct negotiations with the native owners, proceeding in each case by the prevailing custom of each particular dis • trict. It was a course which had been attended with very great success, and by it a very considerable amount of native land had been secured for the purposes of the colo • nists, without leading to any serious difficulty, until those unfortunate circumstances occurred which had lately been taking place. It was a course which had been justified both by the letter and the spirit of the treaty of Waitangi, and also by the necessity of the case. The fact was, there did not exist any such native titles as admitted of being treated by any uniform or well-defined code of law. The condition of the native people had presented an insurmountable ob stacle to the establishment or the working of any court of justice to decide upon their land claims. The natives of New Zealand were to a great extent merely nominal sub jects of the Crown, and in many districts they had remained practically independent. So much so that the small por tion of them who were unfortunately engaged in hostilities against her Majesty's troops could not fairly be said to be in the position of rebels. (Hear, hear.) He would admit that for some years past it had been strongly felt both by the Government of New Zealand and by the Government at home that the existing system was unsatisfactory ; but the difficulties which had arisen were not till lately difficul ties between the Government as purchasers and the natives as sellers. It had been felt, however, that the communis tic tenure of the land—for it was always held by comnm.- nities—was extremely detrimental to the improvement of the natives. It led to indolence and demoralisation of every kind ; and it was, therefore, most desirable to in troduce a better system. In 1858 a bill was sent home by the Colonial Government, called " The Native Territorial Rights Act ;" but after mature deliberation the Govern ment of the day—in which the right honourable baronet the member for Hertfordshire (Sir E. B. Lytton) was Secre tary of State for the Colonies—decided that they could not give it their assent. Last year a bill, with similar objects, was brought in by the noble duke (the Duke of Newcastle) ; but the House of Commons was not disposed to entertain that measure. Within the last month a third bill had been received by her Majesty's Government from the legislature of New Zealand for the purpose of creating native titles, similar to those that would have been created under the bill of last session. The object of that measure was to enable the Governor by and with the advice and consent of gentle men of the highest authority in New Zealand to examine claims, to grant certificates of titles, and to induce the na tives if possible to submit their disputes to the arbitration of some regular tribunal. At the same time he must can didly say he did not believe that any such tribunal would have sufficed to prevent the recent unfortunate occurrences. The entire conviction of the Governor throughout the whole transaction had been that William King never made any claim of any sort to the land that would have been ad mitted by any authority, whether by commissioners, or by a land court, or by any other legal authority. Their convic tion was that this chief, King, had not intended to make any such claim. If he had, it would have been investigated as all such claims had invariably been. It was clear to the government that the position which King had assumed was that of a native potentate who disputed the sovereign claims of the British crown. The authority of the Government over the colony was very limited. The power of internal regulation and of taxation had been given up to the local legislature ; and there remained little to the crown beyond the difficult and invidious task of extinguishing native rights, and handing over the land so obtained as waste land, to be disposed of by the local government. No doubt it would be a great gain if means could be devised of pre venting for the future the bloody disputes which occurred from time to time between the native owners and those unfortunate differences which they had lately had with the Government. If, however, this war should teach them that their wisdom lay in submitting themselves absolutely to the Queen's authority, he had no doubt that it would in the end prove to be of the greatest benefit to the natives them selves. (Hear, hear.) Lord R. CECIL thought the Under Secretary of State (Mr. Fortescue) had misunderstood the drift of his hon. friend's question, namely, the institution of a com • potent tribunal in New Zealand to decide upon the con flicting claims of natives where land was proposed to be sold to the Government. He (Lord R. Cecil) contended that the course pursued by the Government in recent cases was of such a character as to prevent the natives having confidence in the Government. What was wanted was the establishment of a Court of Arbitration, in which the natives could repose confidence, (Hear, hear.) THE SPANISH PROTESTANTS. Sir R. PEEL was anxious not to let the evening pass without making some remarks upon the statement which the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) had made with reference to the communications that he had received from the Spanish government. He did not know whether he had accurately gathered what the noble lord said, but if he had, he felt sure that the noble lord had rather spoken what had been put into his mouth by interested persons than given ex pression to his own sentiments. Lord J. RUSSELL—I gave no opinion at all; I merely stated facts. Sir R. PEEL—That made it a great deal worse. (A laugh.) There were men in Spain who were persecuted solely on the ground of their religious faith. He (Sir R. Peel) had himself presented petitions, very numerously signed, from different parts of the country, urging upon her Majesty's government to take some steps by the exercise of their influence to procure the release of those men who were thus suffering persecution. (Hear.) The noble lord stated on a former occasion that he declined to take that EVICTIONS IN IRELAND. i s sOf Mr. V. SCULLY asked the Chief Secretary for lr e t a whether he had yet received official information ree d , of the recent eviction of 280 inhabitants from the 1 ari .,09 Derryveagh, in the c oun ty o f D onega l ; an d whetheri" intended that the landl or d w h o cause d th os e eric tio should hold the commission of the peace ? 4 , 6 of Mr. CARDWELL sa id h e h a d received infornis'*4d what had occurred on the occasion to which his bon. 00 01 referred. The stipe n di ar y mag i strate, with a large f°`:;cp constabulary, was present in the district when 47 eif , e 4 ments, involving in the whole 244 p ersons , were rslll,l. into execution ; and what he learned was that the p e0, „,4 stood by calmly and s a w mos t o f th e i r h ouses unro of ~ that while some of th em expresse d th e i r intentO rk . emigrate, others said they would seek relief in the W ° o 4 house. The hon. g en tl eman as k e d w h et h er th e reli ed officer received a note un d er th e s t atute to b e present,o i 0 whether he discha rge d hi s d uty. H e ha d direct tor inquiry into that part o f th e case, an d so far as hi s 1 01° 0 tion went the relieving officer did receive the An ti : r ot note, but he had n i t yet rece i ve d i nformat i on as t° passed with regard to the relief of the people under W it ' law. He had n o i n f ormat i on w hi ch induced himt°,so g pose he wa s no t i n a t ten d ance according to the 10 '..a received, or that th ere was any f a il ure w i t h regard 0 to carrying out the provisions of the law. With rer —, these wholesale evictions, they were now becoming 0f tremely rare in Ireland, but it was not possible to ll et f ae ro' case of the kind w ith out f eel i ngs of the deepest COnita't tion for those who were the subjects of it. There 03 I t many persons involv e d i n th e su ff er i ng who coul d n ot 0 .0 4 been parties to any gu ilt y t ransact i on. His hon. friol would find, when the p a p ers move d f or yesterday Wet:, on the table, that w h en G overnment heard it was $ll tontion of the landlord to proceed to so extensi T ;oo exercise of his right s , th e y f e lt i t t h eir duty to eno attention to the serious responsibility which In of incurred by 733 doing. With regard to the renloc7ili this gentleman from the commission of the peace, 0 4 ,34 heard theday before yesterday that his hon. friend fa te t"hto to put the questi on , h e a t once communicate d wit) ti learned friend the L or d Ch ance ll or, w i th whom the " e j rested of advising the Crown in-such cases, and he retin ll oo , him an answer, i n w hi c h h e th oug h t the house wou ldc cur, that the gentle man h a d no t b een shown to him 0. i 41-14 acted in excess of th e r i g ht s w i t h wh i ch he was invested iii the law, or to have been guilty of any breach of his d litl o of his capacity of magistrate; and that in the absenoeofP t o of his having act e d o th erw i se h i s learned f r i en d thoug h ' would be an undue exercise of power to expunge 111911° from the commission of the peace. dot; The motion for adjo urnmen t unt i l Monday was agreed to. DUTY ON FOREIGN PAPER. „ 11 0 8 Mr. TURNER asked the President of the Board of A do whether it was the fact th a t i n c h arging the ouster° ;al on foreign paper a tare o f 31b s. was d educted on the vis Tris of each ream on account o f wrappers, the duty bery charged only on the naked paper, whereas in charging ao excise duty to the British manufacturer the whole 11 d 1 including the wrapper, was weighed for duty; and i f te e was the fact, what reasons could be given why this Pre tion was given to the foreign manufacturer. ay e Mr. M. GIBSON said that he had made inquiries' te d he found it was not c orrec t th a t a tare of 31bs. was ded li ne c , from the weight of each ream, on account of the 'VOA ) , The practice was for th e cus t oms to charge in the fill' stance the whole duty, and afterwards to deduct 2 per l e d on the whole weight, an d return that to the parties ellsr_.,eo with the duty, and th e exc i se did pretty much the 57:44 thing. So that it was not true that any protection 7 given to the foreign manufacturer. MEXICAN BONDHOLDERS, ecc. Mr. BUTT moved for as address for copy of anYal'oe donor conventions providing for the appropriation 0 ' d customs duties of any 15f the Mexican ports to the paP 9 4 of the claims o f th e b on dh olders of the State en 00 re, into between Gover nor J uarez, or any other person rti seating the constitutional Government at Vera CrOP Captain Dunlap or Captain Aldham, of her Majesty's n ii r ie and, copy of, or extracts from, any correspondence or spatches relating t o the affairs of Mexico s i nce the assulj32 tion of the presidential power by Miramon. Lord J. RUSSELL said he had nothing new to cons rs ti o ll' nicate on the subject, but there was no doubt whatever a gross felony was committed. There was a large 01 1 0 4 money at the British Legation, and a base and undise:4l robbery, for which the Briti s h G overnment must dent/ reparation as soon as p oss ibl e. There was some diffisw as to what they should do, but it was under considersii°; There have been so many outrages committed at Itie lj b y that Mr. M a tth ews, th e British Minister, was directeclberf him (Lord J. Russell) to leave Mexico before the rob pe t occurred. It was, therefore, not his fault that he Was present when the money wa s t a k en away. O f course itAatt no wonder the Briti s h b on dh o ld ers f elt just indigun'.o but Sir Charles White was now on his way to Mexico I t o special instructions from the Government. As to the P a r e , moved for, he should lay them on the table of the hous e Monday next. CHELSEA NEW BRIDGE. Sir J. SHELLEY moved fora return of amount of - ot collected on Chelsea New Bridge from the 31st day 0 March, 1860, to the 30th day of September, 1860, and I, the 30th day of September, 1860, to the 31st day of 3Wvg, 1861, stating the exp enses i ncurre d i n the collection of tcLiii repairs, and maintena nce; a l so th e quant i ty of land erSo Battersea Park disposed of for building or other purr" since the 31st day of March, 1860. On the motion of Mr. HUBBARD, Mr. Baxter viO i r charged from attendance on the Select Committee 01 4 0, come and Property-tax, and Mr. Buchanan added the" o , Mr. KINNAIRD obtained l eave t o b r i ng i n a bill to r ri vide additional means for the establishment of refornia , schools in Scotland. Mr. VANCE moved for a ret urn o f a ll art i c l es entere6- ty for exportation to France from the various ports of United Kingdom, together with the value of the from the Ist day of April, 1860, to th e 31 s t d ay o f lea 1861, both inclusive; and similar return for the ea period in the previous year. PUBLIC OFFICES EXTENSION BILL. Mr. COWPER nominated the following member's 70 committee on the above subject : —M r . C owper, Sir Will Dunbar, Lord John Manners, Sir Stafford Northcotey John Shelley, Viscount Enfield ; and five members W oo nominated by the committee of selection; five to b° quorum. Mr. SCULLY complained that there was no Irish tli g th a ber on the committee. If the Government t ri er.— 0 , Irish members, why not let them have their own Irish .iro t liament, where they cou ld manage their own affairs ara°'' themselves. nt Colonel DUNNE wished to know if the Govern— e o meant to repeal the union altogether by excluding members from important committees of that house. Mr. COIVPER said he never contemplated that P,l members wished to act on this com m itt ee , the obie .. , e co which was to make arrangements to purchase five h"'" (A. laugh.) •tt After a few words from Colonel FRENCH, th e eorara l were appointed. VOLUNTEERS' TOLLS EXEMPTION (N o . 2) b—og On the motion of M r . BRISTOW, leave was given to D in a bill to exempt th e vo l un t eer f orces o f G rea t fillo i, from payment of tolls. SUPPLY. Mr. MASSEY brought up the report on supply, was agreed to. QUEEN'S PRISON BILL. 0 4 , The Queen's Prison Bill, the Burford Charity Bil" t bira the Reading Cha r iti es Bill, were sever a ll y read a.,1 time and passed. The Temple B a l sa ll H osp i ta l Bill al read a third time and passed. e a of, The other business on the paper havi ng b ee n dispose d the house adjourned at ten minutes to twelve o'clock. , [Any ERT ISE M E r :ijg . T.l—Holloway's Oi n t men t and Tumours, Sci oful' us Swellin gs , an d Gl an d u l ar Abscetgo At this season of the year, while the temperature variable, such diseases are constantly presenting t te ecl selves in sanguine and feebl e f rames . All have P"', e s within their reach the a n tid o t e t o th ose d re adful scourg e d which, at their c om men cemen t may be readily arrestea°ol cured, but, when ne g l ec t e d, resist for along time the o° o r appropriate remedies. Holloway's Ointment, rubbed el ) o f near the affected part, will thoroughly eradicate the c,ausero, these maladies, and expel their seed fromi. the syst 6 a r Scurvy, scrofula, and all kindred disorders disapP.7o, before this cleansing Ointment and these purifying which cleanse and invigorate. For scurvy in every su s r they are unfailing specifics. - ' ---- -- - LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG , 01 (it No. 112, Strand, Printer, at TUE SUN Office, No. 112,Stra n w in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the C ounty o f kliddlel e ' Saturday, April 20, 1861. such correspondence as that to which he had calle d attention. If discovered he would lay it on the table. Mr. BLAKE said the case to which he wished to call:; noble lord's attention was this : a Mr. Robinson freig li a ship with a cargo from Constantinople to London , o i l the vessel proceeded on her voyage and put into gent; repairs. The captain subsequently went to Port !Lig u ori , in the island of Mi norca , an d i n d uce d the Spaniel' altlithe ties to determine th a t th e cargo was i n suc h a state w e t . ; could not proceed o n hi s voyage. Th e owne r then e el c l argo employe to inquire i n t o th e ma tt er, and he found the is in a sound conditi on . N o d ou b t t h e o bj ec t o f the delay to not deciding the questions was to Compel Mr. Re bius .„ °ll make terms with th e ca pt a i n, an d un d er those e'l oo iers : stances the Spanish authorities would reap very ro' ble benefit. The ca rgo h a d b een d eta i ne d five inent:s'ite no decision had yet been arrived at upon the subj ec " • oa og bbl! oti presentations were in February last made by Mr' to the Foreign-office, and the noble lord gave an ci re P ll . ll bgt that he could not, under the circumstances, int erf A e— w heo he (Mr. Blake) thought the time had now arrivZ or s. something might be done to induce the Spanish n' 0 ment to do justice between the parties, and eapee isw ' Mr. Robinson. 40 Wer e Lord J. RUSSELL said that if a further applie e ","„ e ll tb. made to the Foreign -office he would lay the caseb e ,; ( o) legal advisers of the Government for their opinion. 1 / 4 ` .- THE DOCKYARD LABOURERS. Seas e' Mr. ANGERSTEIN ca ll e d the attention o f the Se 4 of the Admiralty to the wages of the dockyard labor, Lord C. PAGET said the pay of the established in the had not been red uce d ; th ey st ill got 14s. a week, ell;;00 superannuation system was a g rea t b oon t o then 3. • a t t i jo i only the junior class who were reduced to 135., 911 40 were eligible, by g oo d con d uc t an d stea di ness , to be 1 - the established list. Tend And si under I Lomb Di 5,N ew It 9 prcE earnest U 14 , , Tc /tank tild co R ° This Pitiabl€ disease, qUate s its w „, eat n go bed ,Tost w .ousty , average VOnti E Ranson Payne, Barclay Co.; 0 street . and Co __ Tin Offices, Lond bourn This t he Ini revenue 41,260,0 , The • tiros 01 thug cl' inium the ehx lary. The I additioi gYatem of part amount I the _ nsi are !lite lnnal • 48 £707, The y Every f enable Venient -A. N fortune dressin road, V : , ratin g , adoptio ' A m Bold in Pre-em ti°ll dT , , their Er kornii Per tame, the pri he Sti tirmir Physic Surge. CONS Nervo' 1\ n prom o With a on A' from r supply In sue] jeaty's let Jug S P T'