The Sun. — London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

` ^. • the popish= tow'neiram interfering with the elective fran chise of that borough, and declaring that it ought not to be placed in the same situation with themselves, for that its claim was influenced by that of a respectable Nobleman, whose character, u well as his property and wealth, had given him the power of purchasing their suffrages ? With reference to the opinion, that there was no middle course between the opinion of Earl Grey and the Duke of Wellington, he must remind them, that the gentle man who now entertained that opinion, bad not always held it, and that when the Right Hon. Baronet oppo site held a more elevated situation than he did at pre sent (pointing to the poet in the third row of seats on which Sir J. Graham used to sit), he had recommended the formation of a m iddle. party of country gentlemen, who should check both the others in the extremes that either might possibly fall into. He now returned to the Bill itself, to which he had the strongest objections ; and first and chiefly that it went to create a great change iu the mode of voting, and thus decidedly altered the coned tuency of the counnry. The number of bout.eit in Man chester rated between 101. and 201. was 1770, while those rated shove 201. amounted only to 851 ; the amount of the assessed property above 201. was 29,3001., while the amount below 20/. was 22,1301. ; so that, according to the first proposition of the Noble Lord, the representation of Manchester was to be given to bl,OOO/., while 240,000/., because it belonged to out-voter,, was to be ex cluded from the right of giving any vote —(Cheers.)-- The Noble Lord, however, had at length discovered his mistake, and, to use the expression of the Lord Chancellor, was now about to sluice the 2,621 houses with 4,500 be longing to non-residents. And then, after this, what be came of the principle of the Bin ?--(Loud cheers.)—He would not absolutely say that this was against the principle of the Bill, but it showed the neoessity of the Ministry deeply considering the measure before they proposed it to the House. The Noble Lord concluded his speech by asking—anal no doubt it was an important question— supposing, after examining this measure, you reject it, who will you find capable of governing, the country ? H e (Sir Robert Peel) had heard the same ques tion asked (themeh be believed in a different mode and time from that adopted by the Noble Lord); but he had heard it said, "if we are incapable of administering the public affairs, at least we will render them impossible to be administered by others.—(Cheer ing.)" But, surely, even in the mitigated sense in which the Noble Lord used it, it was a great objection to the Bill, if it was to have this effect, viz., that those who consistently opposed it, and believed it, in its ultimate consequence, to be pregnant with ruin, had the alternative offered them by his Majesty's Government, either to ac cept that which they believed to he radically wrong, or to be convinced that it had become impossible for others than the present Ministry to conduct the affairs of the Govern ment. He should deeply lament if this indeed was the alternative. He knew not whether it was or not; but this he knew, that he saw no advantage in relinquishing the exercise of his deliberate judgment, or in yielding against the dictates of that judgment to the popular clamour on this Bill, or in yielding to the infuriated menaces of that Press which exerted in so degrading a manner—(Loud cheers)—which exerted in so degrading a manner the irreeponsible power with which it was en dowed, and which ought to be exercised with the most scrupulous care.—(Cheers.) Besides, if we were to give way to those motives, what security bad he that he must not persevere in the resignation of his own judgment and conviction to the same influence ? His conscience, in act ing on his own judgment, was at rest. lie could not be looking to gain anything by the defeat of the measure.— ( Hear. ) The Bill interfered with no interests of his. Quite the reverse : for if it was to prove the effect which it was said it would have, it would add to his influence iu every county wisere he possessed any property.—(Hear.) He, therefbre, could not he influenced by what lie had heard ascrilicd--and, as he believed, most unjustly ascribed —to honest men, who bad endeavoured, from the sincere convictions of their iniuds, to resist this measure as per nicious and destructive.—(Cheera.) What might be the conseluearcee of the Bill he would not say ; but if it should prove prejudicial to the interests of the country, lie should hold responsible for it that Ministry which had pre pared the Bill without due ea neideration to its importance, and b 3 so doing, had reduced them to such a state of em berraesanent, that they most either acquiesce in what they believed to be injurious to the Constitution, or witness the melancholy prospect of the affairs of this realm being soh roitted'to misrule anti anarchy.—(Continued cheering.) Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that with respect to the motives diet hail been attributed to the opponents of this measure ley the friends of the Bill, before any weight was put span that, it should be remembered that the basest motives had been attributed to these who had brought forward this measure—(Cheers) --though he must ob serve that his Noble Friend (Lord Althorn) had on the previous night well answered such insinuations, wlaau he had observed that the Ministry would have been unworthy of the slightest confidence, could it for one moment be supposed that iu !whining forward a measure which he (Sir James Graham) would readily admit to he of the most iniportant since the acceeaiou of the House of Brunswick, to the throne of these realm,, they bed attended to either private:or party interests, or done other than pursue an open, manly, and straight-forward course.—.(Hear, hear.) Tie Bight Hun. Baronet bad mistaken his Right Hon. Friend the S,cretary for Ireland, in thinking that he had complained of any combination among the open eneniii.s of the measure. The Right Hon. Beronet himself had given an even anti smanly opposition to the Bill; and when lie (Sir James Graham) eat at that pest to which the Tight Hon. Baronet had referred, and where it might, perhaps, be his destiny to returc—for he agreed with his Right Han. Friend that the vote of that night would be vital to the Bill itself, and that if defeated in this, it would be a question of aneious deliberation with the Ministers whether they could venture to urge the rent of the Bill on ti,e fature attention of the House. He rememliereS th e arguments of which the Right Hon. Baronet bad made use, arid was willing to admit that they were consistent with tho.T now employed liv the Right Hee. Baronet. The arguments of lilt Right flaw]. Friend, however, had referred to those who professed Oahe friends of the measure and who had voted for the second reeclieg of the Bill, but who now (like the iron. Member fur Southwark) had united with the Gallant Gellert], who, if he mistook not, had voted against the sevond readiog of the B:11. It wee remarkable enough, that the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, in defence of the Gallant General's motion, not only impugned the principle of the Bill, but bad gone considerable length even into the details of the measure. But if there could be any doubt that the principle of the Gallant General's motion was , against that of the Bill, he thought that it was set at rest by the fact that they had net yet learned from any of the friends of that motion that it wag politic to efiefraoehise a single borough, or to give the right of representation to a single large town. If this was the case, how was it pos sible to carry the Gallant General's motion into effect, and not destr oy the principle of the Bill ? And bow could those who voted for the second reading of the Bill now support this motion ? The Right Hon. Baronet bad hien self felt the'difficultv, and asked, if they must not add to the number of the House ; hut, most assuredly, he (Sir 3. Graham) and his colleen s - ea . :es were not prepared to con sent to such an increase ; and it was singular enough that when last year it was proposed to add six Members to the House for large unrepresented towns, the Right Hon. Baronet hail altogether objected to it, though the addition WAS not to be permanent, but to be balanced by the de duction of such boroughs that might be proved to have been guilty of bribery and corruption. While on this sub ject, be would quote the authority of Mr. Southey, which would probably be of weight with the opponents of the measure. That gentleman had stated, that the cumber of the British House of Commons was inconveniently large, rather resembling a popular dem a deliberate assembly. Now, though he could not perhaps go the length of Mr. Southey, yet he certainly thought, if any means could be devised of abridging the number of the Members, it woold be found desirable and csnvenient.—(Hear, hear.) But the alteration in the respective representation of the three portions of the United Kingdom, had necessarily followed on the 'deliberations of the Government. After determi ning the boroughe that should be disfranchised, and giving new Members to such counties and towns as appeared most to require them e the attention of the Government was di rected to the state of the representation in Scotland. It was found to be moo f refer to the aalmistuetY' and, indeed, on this point he need only of Edinburgh (siiro;s of the H on . M em b e r for the county eellerk). upon which it was deter mined to extend the franchise in that county. Government having th - to e s e ri t e iv et et. l to add to the represen tation of Scotland, had felt th at: would be unjust not to give fresh Members to Ireland a lso and laante arose the necessity for the extension of the re pr esentation tteter be e ation in Ireland. On these points he bad endeavoured with respect to what remained, he would not sa e y xp tl l l i a c t it tb e Bill would be abandoned if the Gallant General's motio n carried ; but at all events it would be matter o grav e w" consideration with the Government. He, therefore , warned all the friends of the measure, that if they ha d hitherto been sincere in its support, this present step was a most important one. He did not use this in the way of intimidation ; all that he wished to do was to make them aware of the clouds and darkness that overhung the pro. grea of the Bill. Fur himself lie should return with pleasure to the rank of a private citizen, and en deavour to 4o his duty in that situation; but at all events the conso- lation of his life would be, that thinking the interest of the Monarchy were at stake, and that the strength of the Constitution depended on bringing back the affections of t! , e people which bad been lost—entertaining these opi nions, he said, it would ever he a proud reflection to him that he had endeavoured to urge on the House a measure without which the stability of the throne and of all the institutions of the country would he shaken.—(Cheers.) General GASCOYNE said, that he would confine himself strictly to explanation. He had spoken to the Noble Lord on the subject of the motion he had introduced, end the opinion of that Noble Lord had been, that it would not affect the principle of the Bill. Under this circum stance, he had conceived he was brand to persevere in the motion.—(Loud cries of " Divide.") Mr. MUNDAY said, that as he bad voted for the se cond reading of the Bill, and intended with great reluc tance to give his vote for the motion of the Gallant Gene ral—(Cheers)—he beeged to stet; that be did so because the resolution had reference to the diminution of the num ber of English Members, a step in his opinion of most fatal tendency, and not because he was against the prin ciple of Reform. He declared he did not act in this way from any party motive, or from any wish to detain the House from going into Committee (the voice of the Hon. Member was here drowned amidst the moat tumultuous cries of " Question, question.") The ATTORNEY-GENERAL then rose, but was for a lone time unable to obtain a hearing. He could assure the House, that if they would favour him with a little in dulgence, he would trespass upon them but for a very short time.—(Renewed uproar.)—He did really think that any Hon. Member who stood in the relation which be did to the House, the Government, and the country, was entitled to an opportunity of explaining the principles which regulated his condnct. The question was, whe ther the resolution was to be agreed to, which would pre vent the Committee from diminishing the numbers of the House of Commons. Upon that point he should have to make this simple observation, which he conceived would he decisive of the course which the House ought to pur sue ; it was, that when they went into Committee, they ' would have the same power in their hands which they had at present; but if, by adopting the proposition of the Gal lant General, they pledged themselves not to diminish the uudeljers of that House, they might find the pledee exceed. ingly inconvenient. Suppose, for example, they agreed to certain disfranchisements, they might find considerable dif ficulty in filling up the vacancies which those disfranchise ments would necessarily create.—(Much impatience mani fested from several parts of the House.) He bad a solemn and important duty to discharge, and he would not be de terred from discharging it by any manoeuvring, let it pro ceed from what quarter it might—on an occasion such as that he was not to be cried down, or coughed down. Cla mour ont of doors had been spoken of, but if a continuance of the interruption to which he was exposed were conti nued, he would not hesitate to call it clamour—he would not hesitate to designate it as a measure to keep the House from coming to a vote, and getting rid of the motion for the present. Now supposing they succeeded in getting rid of the measure in its present form, seed prevented a reduc tion of more than twenty Members, leaving the whole number 638, they would still have left to them a variety of perplexing considerations which might really prevent their coming to a s .tiefactory conclusion upon the subject during Cee present Session, and that result, in the hands of an enemy, might be made the means of defeating the Bill. He therefore conceived the friends of the measure could not adopt a course more unwise and imprudent than to give the sliglitek sanction to a proposition which should have the eff_ feet of embarrassing the operations of the Committee. Pos sibly the Gallant General, the Member for Liverpool, might say to them, they might split Liverpool into several districts, and give to each a representative, and so fill all the pos sible vacancies. That certainly might be a mode of dis posing of the measure ; but after what had recently oc curred in Liverpool, he should have little.difficulty in affirming, that no More effectual means could be adopted far defeating the measure than the adoption of any such proposition.—(Cheets.)—Yes, it would defeat the mea sure, and the Hon. Gentleman opposite denied the obser vation, plainly avowing that he admitted its truth. He wished to know was the Hon. Gentleman a friend to the Bill ; did be propose the amendment in amity, and with the view of doing the Bill a service? if so, he could in form him that nothing could be more calculated to do the Rill an injury ; in fact nothing more calculated to defeat the measure altogether ; there was certainly no proposi tion upon which the enemies of the Bill would dwell with more pleasure. It bad been said that the present Bill was a Coneesion made to public clamour. • He hoped he might be permitted to say that there was not in that House —not in the country, one man 1.1111 disposed to yield to that degrading influence than he was. He would not go one seep in obedience to it ; but at the same time, would say, that the possible imputation of yielding to such an in fluence would not deter him from manfully avowing his determination to support to the utmost that which he thought was likely to carry into effect the long-cherished and always unchanged opinions which had governed his political conduct—would not deter him from labour ing to promote that which the country had received with acclamations, awl which, if rejected, they would hear of the reject'on with the deepest disappointment, and which, if adopted, they would receive with rejoicings and gratitude.—(Cheers.)—He was putting the matter hypo thetically, but it was an hypothesis which was supported by pretty stout petitions—it was an hypothesis which did not demand the clamour of " an infuriated multitude" fa. its support, nor the aid of " a tyrannical press" for its propagation. A Noble Lord had refarred to the fact, that it had gone forth to the people, end been believed by them, that the present Bill %mild neither give them food or clothes--he believed there was no part of England, with the exception of those districts which in the month of November were disturbed, where such gross ignorance prevailed. Suppose they were inquiring into any similar cese, referring to a different body of persons, how would they proceed ? Would they not proceed by inquiring into particular acts of delinquency; and if it were agreed that the House was not adequate to the discharge of the duties which the Constitution imposed upon it, what remained to he done but to reform it, and how were the means of Reform to be devised except by in quiring into particular cases of delinquency? Much Lad been said of intimidation.—(The uproar, which, daring the greater part of the honourable and Learned Gentieman's speech, was kept up with little intermis %ion, here rose to a height which rendered him quite inaudibly.)—He wag next understood to advert to an observation of an Hon. Member opposite, that if the present Government were not in a condition to carry on the afiltira of the country themselves, they would at least place these affairs in such a situation as that no other Ca binet could take their places; but that was language which ought not to be held, and which certainly should not have the effect of influencing the conduct of the pre sent Government. lie conceived that the vote of the pre sent night would lie decisive of the question of Reform. It bad been said that the Duke of Wellington and Lord Grey dictated to their respective partied. Sir R. PEEL denied that lie had said that either of those Noble Persons had assumed the office of dictator. He merely sold that they were possessed of great autho rity. All he meant tg convey was, that they represented the two extreme-, and between those there was no inter mediate opinion - . The ATTORNEY-GENERAL resumed, briefly ex plaining the view which he had taken of the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet, proceeding to observe, that Hon. Members on the other aide of the House might per bans attempt to form an Administration without the Duke of Welting ton ; for, rafter his declarations, he could not, again mutate efface with those who though against the present measure, were favourable to a Reform of their own devising ; and he could not help saying, that an Administration formed of them without the Noble Duke, would be like the performanee of the tragedy of Hainiet, the part of Ilandet being ►eft out by particular desire. (The noise and confusion again attaipipg a great height)— Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to claim a patient and hnpartial hearing for his Hon. and Learned Friend ; though the hour was late, it was not so late as they had debated upon other occasions, and both lie and his Hon. and Learned Friend would, he conceived, be entitled to a hearing, Tie ATTORNEY-GENERAL in continuation, went on to say, that lion. Membera opposite made no propesi tion, lest, as they alleged, it would embarrass the Govern ment ; but calmly nothing could be more calculated to create embarrassment than the course which they had taken. He had net the slightest doubt that, Bonner or later—and but a little sooner or later—this measure must pass. It had been prepared! in integrity, with an honest desire to remedy greaieting and acknowledged abuses, and it had b. en dictated by necessity—the necessity of main taining the valued institutions of the country in their en tireness and purity. He lead co doubt that this diviaion would decide tine fate of the Bill"; and he, fur one, should be must happy to find himself by the aide of a Noble Lord who addressed the House last night ; and who, con• sistently with the tenor and opinions of his life, after the question had been put, would be surrounded by the friends of his youth. himself u J p . o r th S e S a E tt L e t ran A , l o t c h . o t t e gh t reluctant to m ob i tru .n de the part he hail taken, and that hienulstra.'dyet, t cot it g upon this particular question, was compeller)no yet t request spoken the indulgence of Hunoureble Members r a few minutes, while he gave an explanat'on upon points in which Ile only was concerned. A motion had .certainly been men tioned last week, to declare that the total number of die floosie oueht not to be diminished ; and his Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) and himself had stated, that they would take it into consideration ; but the proposition of the Ihin. and Gallant General was entirely different.. It was not that the total number of the House—including England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, should not be diminiehedl..— but that the total number of Members for England and Wales. should not he diminished. That was a motion of Parliamentary tactics, brought forward, indeed, by the lion. end Gallant General, but concocted by more wily advisers, by which an attempt was made to bring to gether all the enemies of the Bill, and to entrap such of its friends as might be dupes and gulls enough to fall into the snare.—(Much cheering.) With deep regret he found that the first dupe, the first gull who ran headlong and blindfold into it, was his Honourable and Gallant Friend the Memler for Southwark, whom until this moment he (Lord John Russell) bed looked upon as a not more staunch, but more strenuous reformer than himself.—(Laughter.) Upon the paint of population, he would say that neither Lord Somers, the great author of the Union with Scotland, nor Mr. Pitt, the able pro moter of the Union with Ireland, had ever thought that there should be necessarily a particular rate and propor tion between the number of inhabitants and the number of Members. In the same way Ministers had thought that they had an opportunity, not of adding to the proportion of Scotland or of Ireland, but of giving Members to large populous and commercial towns; and upon the principle. of Lord Somers and Mr. Pitt they had proceeded. Where they thought there was a - want of representatives, they wished that representatives should be given. If the mo tion were carried, and Ministers were called upon to deli berate on the fitness or unfitness of increasing the Mem bers of the House, to decide on the affirmative would seem little less than an act of folly ; and supposing it decided that the English Members should continue as numerous as at present, what would become of the assurance of the Hon. and Gallant General, to the Scotch and Irish /Mem bers, that they wets not prevented from having additions to their number? If, indeed, the conduct of the Bill, and the determination of the House, were in the hands of the Hon. and Gallant General, he might order it as he pleased ; but be (Lord J. Russell) gave warning to the Members for Scotland and Ireland that if they supported and carried the motion before the House, they must relipquisb for ever the hope that new representatives could be given to either.—(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that the Irish Members would feel it as he had put it; but not so the Scotch, who, by a little sophistry and a great deal of special pleading, hail been led te htlietie that the two objects were compatible. The motion, worded as it was, had been de signed merely to put the advocates of the Bill in a dilemma, and to re-try the question of the second reading. Minis ters bad thought that the vote of the House in fatoor of the recond reading was conclusive, that the measure should be referred to the Committee, and hr (Lord J. Russell,) said with the Noble Earl at the head of tl.e Government. that any improvement which left the efficiency of the Bill unimpaired would be adopted ; hut that by its efficiency the Government was ready to stand or fall.—(Hear. ) When lee had last night introduced the names of Earl Grey and of the Duke of Wellington, be had had no other object than to show, in the shortest form and in the plain est manner, that there were but two courses—Reform or no Reform. The Duke of Wellington had avowed himself the friend of all close boroughs, and had defended the pre sent system and all its abuses, as the most perfect that the wit of man could devise. Earl Grey, •n the contrary, had applied himself to secure the confidence of the people, by obeying the universal call far Reform. If the Bill were thrown out, the consequences might he various. He would not give it out as a threat, but he might allude hypothetically to the results. The Crown might, in the fir t place, appeal to the country, in order to ascertain whether it approved of the decision of the House of Com mons.—(Much cheering.)-=That was at least a poetsitzle ease, and it would be a very constitutional course. But suppose some modified plan of Reform were introduced and adopted before the dissolution of Parliament, it must be dissolved afterwards, in order to give the people the be nefit of the change. Would that be accomplished with peace and satisfaction, and would not the first step in the new House of Commons be for some Member, favourable to this rejected measure, to bring forward a motion to re vive it? He (Lord J. Russell) could not imagine how any of the supporters of the present Bill could refuse to vote for such a motion, and then, instead of peace and satisfaction, there would be- a continual struggle between the people, on the one hand, to obtain effectual Reform, and the 'House • of Commons on the other to resist it. ' It had been said that this Bill would only be a stepping stone to those who wished for greater changes; but be (Lord J. Russell) appealed to any man whether a more moderate Bill, which satisfied nobody, and offended many, was not much more likely to be converted into a stepping stone. Indeed the objection of the Hon. Member for Preston was, that this Reform would be final, and that, when once it was made, nothing more would be granted. He (Lord J. Russell) contended, therefore, that this Bill was not only much more likely to preserve the enduring excel lence of the cz:nstitution of the House, while it secured the contidende of the people in its deliberations and decisions, and confirmed their affection and loyalty to the throne. The object of the Bill was to raise a bar to the accom plishment of this great end ; and, in conclusion, he en treated all who were friendly to the measure to vote with him and his friends. Mr. HUNT s:.id a few words in explanation. The House then divided— For General Gascoyne's amendment 299 Against it Majority against Ministers —8 On re-entering the Gallery, we learned that, on the motion of Lord ALTiIORP, the Bill was ordered to be com mitted on Thursday. The decision on this most important motion was re ceived without the least manifestation of disappointment or of triumph, either by the Members in the House or by the strangers, who, even at that advanced hour, remained to hear the result of the division. The Orders of the Day being then disposed of, th e House adjourned at a few minutes before Five o'clock. SECOND EDITION. SUN OFFICE. Seven o'Clock. M PE RI A. L PA RLI ENT TINS EVENING. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER took the Chair precisely at Three o'clock. Several private Bil!s were forwarded a stage. Sir 11. PARNELL took the oaths and his seat for Queen's County. Mr. BELL presented a petition from the county of Northumberland against the plan of Reform. Mr. BEAUMONT did not consider the petition as corn in: from the county of Northumberland, but from the Duke who note that title, and his tenantry were obliged to sign it for fear of being turned out of their farms. Sir IL HARDINGE denied that the Duke bad• ever turned ont a single tenant on poltical feeling. A more amiable or kind-hearted man did nut exist. Mr. BEAUMONT did not wish personally to attack the Duke. The onus lay on his Commissioners. After 'mile observations from several Members the petition was brought up and ordered to be printed. Mr.. - BELL then presented several petitions against negro slavery. Mr. HODGSON presented a petition from South Shield., praying that they might not be disfranchised for voting for Members for Newcastle. Mr. MACKIN.NON presented a petition front Ipswich, praying that that to.vn might not be disfranchised. Mr. FOLEY presented a petition from Stowbridge in favour of Reform. Colonel LYGON was.in•tructed by his constituents to say this petition did not express the general opinion of the town, and he had a declaration from a number of persons who attended the meeting, disserAing front the resolutions that were passed. Phis declaration w , to signed by ten Magistrates, who stated tL•ey were Dot advtrse to Reform, but they considered that if the Bill in its p►e•ent shape passed into a law it would en danger the glorious Constitution. lie profor3ed in this opinion he perfectly agreed. Mr. C. FERGUSSON presented a petition from Kirk etalliright, against the plan of Reform. After some observations from Sir G. MURRAY and Sir C• FORBES, the petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. C. FERGUSSON then presented several petitions from various places in favour of Ref .rm. Sir J. JOHNSON "presented a petition fi om Bishop's-- Cagle against Reform. Mr. 134AUMONT presented several petitions in favour of Reform. Mr. JOHN WOOD presented a petition from Preston, against the Beer Bill. Mr. JOHN WOOD presented a petition from Pres ton, signed by. 2,400 inhabitants; and also one from the M i ncliester Political Union, signed by 6,000 individuals . h i and near Manch es t er , i n f avour o f t h e presen t plan (!t Reform, and expressive of their indignation at what his 'Urn. Colleague (Mr. Hunt), bad said respecting their disapprobation of he measure. • Several Hoi.r. MEMBERS presented petitions from various parts, for and against the measure. SUPPLY AND ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. • The House resolved itself, on the motion of Mr. DExt- SON, into a Committee of Supply and Ordnance Estimates. Mr. HUME, who entered the House after the Com mittee had been formed, observed that for the first time in his life he should not oppose the votes of cert i alu sums being now passed to his Majesty for the purposes stated in those votes, in the hope that it would enable his Majesty's Mi nisters very speedily to bring t' , ,e affairs of that House into a state in which his Majesty might be disposed at once to dissolve the Parliament, in order that lion. Members might be sent hack to their constituents for neck and neck—(Loud laughter)—as the two p trties in that House were after two trials. It would be perlect folly to attempt to discuss anything of any importance. It could not be very satisfactory to suppose that that House wasexactly divided in opinion, and tl:at with one half the whole 01555 of the people should be. In such a state of things it was impossible any good could be dune. LIFT SITTING. HOUSE OF LORDS. Lord BOLTON took the oaths and his seat. Lord KINNOULL presented a petition from the Free-- holders, Justices of Peace, and Commissioners of Supply, of the county of Perth, against the measure now before Parliament, on the subject of Reform. Lord SUFFIELD presented 152 petitions from different parts of the country against slavery. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several petitons from Castle Raynard, against Reform. The Duke of GORDON presented petitions from Elgin and Ross, against the Reform Bid. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Lord KING presented a petition from John Joseph Lawson, the printer of the Times newspaper, acknow ledging his error, and trusting to the consideration of their Lordships. The petition was read, after which Lord LIMERICK observed, that as he had stated yesterday he was actuated by no personal motives whatever in bringing the subject before their Lord ships yesterday. The House had come to a deci sion that the charge he had made against the indivi dual now in custody was a most gross libel, not only upon himself but upon the whole House. He did not wish for the infliction of severe punishment, but he had authorities chewing that for offences of a similar nature in former times, individuals were in prison for three and six mouths in private. The Noble Lord then alluded to the case of Mr. Perry, of the Morning Chronicle, which took place in March, 1795, and for an offence of a similar nature committed by him, that individual was sent to Newgate for three months. He had only mentioned this to their Lordships for the purpose of showing what had been done in former times. He certainly had no desire whatever to push the punishment of this individual to a peat extent. Ile left him in the hands of their Lordships, and whatever coarse they might think proper to adopt would b: per fectly satisfactory to him. The Earl of MANSFIELD moved that the petition be , laid on the table, and taken into consideration to-morrow. Lord KING thought the proper course for their Lord ships to pursue would be, considering the punishment which Mr. Lawson had already undergone, and the con trition which he expressed, to order his attendance at the bar to be reprimanded by the Lord Chancellor, and then discharged. The Earl of MALMESBURY perfectly coincided with the Noi.le Earl (Mansfield) in taking the petition into con sideration to-morrow, and the more publicity was given to subjects of this nature the better. If, however, the Noble Lord (King) wished that the course he had stated should be adopted, the regular Rirliamentary way of proceeding would be to give notice of a motion to that effect for to morrow. Earl GREY thought that considerable advantage was derived from subjects of this nature being discussed in public. He was no friend to secrecy. He thought it would be much better that the House should take tiii to morrow to consider, and then a motion might be made by the Noble Baron, if he chose, that the offender should be called to the Bar, reprimanded, and discharged, and he trusted there would be no more discussion upon the sub ject to-day. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not understand that by the course which had been pursued yesterday it would not be open to any Noble Lord to deliver his fur ther sentiments upon the petition which had been now pre sented. The House had came to the determination that the matter complained of by the Noble Earl (Limerick) was a scaudalous libel on its privileges, and he considered the small punishment which Mr. Lawson had now undtr gone was not sufficient fur the enormity of the offence. He certainly thought that the House would best. consult its own dignity if it was to visit upon the individual a greater degree of punishment, and a marked disapprobation in such practices and conduct; and be trusted further that the House would institute measures to bring up the Editor, for he could not bring himself to believe that the individual now at the bar was the real author of this libel. He trusted the House would find means of discovering the -individuals who had masked themselves under the name of this man. He thought the individuals who wrote paragraphs for these Papers would have bitter pangs of reproach on their minds when they saw their Lordships inflicting the reprimand on this individual. He had also felt exceed ingly astoni-hed at the speech of the Lord Chancellor last night, - which had almost induced him to believe that he was Counsel for the offending party on this occasion. —(Order. ) The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to order. So little did be dread the Noble Lord, that be had nu objection whatever to his going on making what expositions lie pleased tither of him (the Lord Chancellor) or himself. He cared not one rush for his sarcasms, insinuations, awl threats, but he would much rather meet in open hos tility than by covert insinuation. He called on the Noble Marquis to charge him with something. uLONDONDERRY hod too hthought respectti e Noble fo Lr ole hea and could o Learned en n m o d t . T rd he k s t i te a s r v ilui v s e e ry f ‘ vell h grey ; ta b le u n t ts th t is o h c e h ria airgsetli say,im with t any that the Noble N thing Lord, with all his eloquence and skill, nor any other Noble Peer in that House, should put him down in the discharge of which he considered the conscientious discharge of his duty. Ile knew the Noble and Learned Lord by his great eloquence, and deep erudition, might by force of argument make that which was the worse appear the better cause, yet pigmy as he (the Noble Mar quis) was in comparison with the Noble and Learned Lord, if he had formed an opinion, no man should put him down. Time LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, I believe that this is the first time, and it may be the last, that I have called no Noble Peer to order, and I know not whether I should not best consult the convenience of your Lordships and myself, I took no notice whatever of the speech of the Noble Marquis. But I must set myself right in some few particulars. The Noble Mar quis has accused me of acting as Counsel for the offender. The Marquis of LONDONDEBRY—No ; what I said was, that your Lordship to„k that course which almost induced me to believe you were nounsel for the offender. The LORD CHANCELLOR —Well, good arguers, like the, Noble Marquis, have got a way of wrapping up their meaning in words little capable of being under stood. I am a plain man, and will state to your Lordships without any of the semi-professional subtlety of the Noble Marquis about what I really did yesterday. The Noble Lord is perfectly right in allowing no mau to prevent him discharging what he conceived to be his duty, and far be it from me to say anything that would tend in the smallest degree to make him retire from his duty in Parliament. But I wish if the Noble Murquis has any charge in connection with thin subject to bring against me, or any other Member of this House, he would come boldly, straightforwardly and manfully, anti, put it in such a shape as that I can meet it. The charge of the Noble Marquis would almost make your Lordships believe that I had acted as counsel for the culprit. The Noble Marquis has found it very convenient, however, to give but an imperfect ac count of what I did say ; and I am in the judgment of the House, whether I did not state, that whatever might be the advice I should feel called upon to give your Lordship that it was a case absolutely clear ag minst the of fending party. The result of my experience is, that the dis cussion of the privileges of this House tend nothing to support its privileges and keep up its dignities. But, my Lords, that I should agree, for a breach of privilege of this destiption, that a man should be sentenced to pay a fins of 1001., and imprisoned for six mouths would be ut erly impassible. Before I did so, I must have the nitt:er well silted. I could never agree that an - individual should undergo such punishment, who had been tried by no jury, who had had rru counsel to take up hie defence, but merely on the sug eestion of a Noble Lord who thinks proper to get up in his rest and make a complaint against bhp.— If such timings were to be allowed every individual in his Majesty's dominions would no doubt be liable, on the the application of a Noble Lord, to be sent to Netvgate, and confined interminably. if the Noble Marquis thinks it is a matter of course that his Majesty's subjects should, be sent to prison every time *hey were charged with a breach of privilege, he and I must argue that point. For these reasons I, a friend of the privileges of this House, and an enemy to any thing like a breach of them, trust your Lordships will have the otudence and the discretion. to pause on your give in so solemn and grave a manner your Lordships countenance to such questionable proceedings. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE proposed, that Mr. Lawson should be ordered to appear at the Bar again to•morrow, then to be reprimanded, and afterwards fii arged ; but should any Noble Lord propose to carry , the proposition further, it should have his decided oppo sition. Earl GREY, who spoke almost inaudibly, was sup posed to say, that discussions on such subjects did not enhance the dignity of that House. Lord TENTERDEN said that when the Court of Common Law ordered a fine to be paid, it invariably ac-, companied that sentence by ord, ring the party to be con fined till it was paid ; and he could not conceive but that both the Houses of Parliament had the same power. The power was given for the sake of the public at large, and if the blouses of Parliament had not the power of vindicating. their privilege., there would be an end to all good order. The LORD CHANCELLOR was surprised to hear the Lord Chief Justice cf England declare that Parliament had that power, which bad been disputed by the stoutest, periods of Parliamentary privileges. This was a disputed. power. Let any man bring forward a motion, and the Noble and Learned Lord might be abla to persuade the Houle that they had the power, but if lie did, he the Lord Chancellor) should feel himself mistaken If they had the power, the very circumstance of the Noble Members of that House being the Judges of their own cases—sot always the most calm, temperate, and dispas-, sioaate Judges ought to satisfy them that when an individual was brought before them without knowing the nature of, the charge, without an indictment, without the assistance of Counsel, that that defendant to Drake them abst.in from exercising such power unless in Cale of absolute necessity. The Noble and Learned Lord iad :aid, that because Courts of Justice had the /power of A ling, and committing a man unail be paid that Lae, that, therefore, he thought the Houses of Parlia mat had the same power. Good !God ! Who had en,. heard before of the House of Commons having such a, p•or.a. ? He supposed the Noble and Learned Lord had aaso meant to say that the House of Commons also had the power to examine, and did examine, witnesses on but no such thing was ever heard of before. Whenever the Noble and Learned Lord, or any other Member of that House thought proper to bring forward a regular motion on the subject, lie should be prepared to meet them. (LErr SITTING.) DISSOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT. It is confidently expected that, in consequence of Mi , nieters being in the minority last night, that an imme diate dissolution of Parliament will take place. This is the general opinion in both Houses of Parliament this evening, and it was generally thought that some of the Ministers would hare announced the intention of the Cabinet on the subject. This, however, had not been done up to the time of our second edition going to press. STATEMENT of the VOTES of the SIXTEEN REPRE SENTATIVES of MIDDLESEX, LONDON, WESTMIN STER, SOUTHWARK, and HERTFORDSHIRE, on the 19th of April, for his Majesty's Ministers and the Reform Bill, and of those against it and absent. , •=1 ' ~" ~,.. Place. Name. ?, i . ‘,.. _____......_ .._._ hf IDDLESti X. -- County — Byn t ,, ,, George — Waithman, Robert \ s o: o ' n l i , e ll ji i W s a .. m illiam London r 1 lil. ‘l-I‘ v ‘‘l. Bu rdett, hu'ai:blmronP:u,s Matthew JosephS irt'F. B a r t — Westminster.. Southwark..... I. Calvert, Charl C e S a. irßobert —: me ATFORDSIIIatt i County elrigh —t, Sir J. Bart. Calvert, Nicholson Hertford i late"orme'be, Viscount?T. Tennant, Charles — St. Alban's.... Grimston, Viscount i-- - I I Total 112 3 I I LAW INTELLIGENCE.-(THIS DAY) COURT OF CHANCERY. EXTRAORDINARY OCCURRENCE. While Mr. Knight was arguing in an appeal of the Attorney- General v. the Corporation of Newbury, in which the question was a question of account, The LORD CHANCELLOR enquired whether the Ledrned Counsel meant him to infer, from the strain of his argument, that if a set of men were trustees for two distinct charities, they would, with impunity, apply the funds of the one to the purposes of the other ?-31r. Knight said that while the law of the Court remained as it was, that certainly was the case. In pro ceeding with his argument he referred to a report of the " At torney General v. the Mayor and Corporation of Exeter," in support of a proposition raised by him, which occasioned the following extraordinary scene, The LORD CHANCELLOR—What is the name of the case, Mr. Knight ? Mr. Knight—lt i s " Th e A ttorney- G eneral against the Mayor and Corporation of Exeter." The LORD CHANCELLOR—Where is it ? Mr. Knight— I will let your Lordship know. My Lord, in one of those nu merous cases of the Attorney-General against the Mayor and Corporation of Exeter— The LORD CHANCELLOR—No ; but it would be conve nient if you would just answer the question. I ask, what is the name of the book ? Mr. Knight—And I say I will state it. The LORD CHANCELLOR—WeII, where is it.—(Taking up the book.) Mr. Knight—l have it before me. The LOltb CHANCELLOR—Then why don't you state it ? Mr. Knight—l mean to do so. The LORD CHANCELLOR—WeII, where is it? It is not a sealed book. Mr. Knight—No, certainly not, for I have it now open before me. The LORD CHANCELLOR—Sure it is not one of the Druid's books P Mr. Knight (smiling in a sarcastic manner) — It certainly is not. The LORD CHANCELLOR —Then what is it? Is there any thing indecent in the name ? Mr. Knight—No, not at all. The LORD CHANCELLOR —Or is there any thing here that prevents the Judge of this Court asking such a question as , is asked every day and every hour in every other Court ? Mr. Knight—No, Ido not say there is (still standing, and holding the book open in his hand). The LORI) CHANCELLOR—Then what is it?—(Warmly and authoritatively.)—l beg to know the name of the book ? Sir E. SUDDEN—(In a low tone directed to Mr. Knight)—No, no, state it Mr. Knight,—statethe name. Mr. KNIGHT--My Lord, I was going to state it. The LORI) CHANCELLOR—Then do state it ? Sir E. SUGDEN--(Again across to Mr. Knight) —Give the name, give the name. Mr. KNIGHT—Why really my Lord, when lam stating a case. The LORD CH A NCELLOR---(lnterrupting, rising up abruistly and apparently highly displeased)—Really I don't un derstand this. I shall leave the Court until you have learnt to answer a question. Mr. Knight---(As his Lordship was walking from his chair to the door—l am going to state it, my Lord. The LORD CHANCELLOR---I shall leave the Court and come back, Sir. His LORDSHIP then at once disappeared, and was instantly followed by the Noble Lord who had been accompanying him on the bench. Very soon afterwards the benches appropriated to Counsel were much filled, conversing and expressing their dif ferent opinions upon what had so unexpectedly and so astound ingly taken place before many of them. —His Lordship left the Court at twenty-five minutes past eleven. His LORDSHIP returned into Court at a quarter before two, and, on taking his seat, said—Now, Mr. Knight, will you tell me the name of the book. Mr. Knight—yes, my Lord. The LORD CHAI'iCELLOII--If it's not a secret. I don't wish to ask you to tell me any secrets of your clients. Mr. Knight---The case, my Lori, is— The LORD CHANCELLOR—Stop a moment, Sir Charles Wetherell wishes to make a Motion Mr. KNIGHT bowed and left the Court. tek ope.' swe LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, APRIL 20, 1831. Shortly after the House of Commons broke up last night summonses were issued from the Foreign office, for holding a Cabinet Council this morp'ng, at eleven o'clock. By half-past ten, however, all the Ministers had assembled at the residence of Earl GREY, in Downing-street. (The Council being held there on account of the indisposition of Lord HOLLAND, and the difficulty his Lordship would have experienced in ascending the stairs at the Foreign-office.) The Council remained in delibera tion up to two o'clock, when the Ministers left for the purpose of attending his MAJESTY'S Levee, at St. James's Palace. During the sitting of the Cabinet Council this morning Earl GREY left his colleagues two or three times, and proceeded to St. James's Palace, where his Lordship had an audience of the KING. The Debate of last night on General GAS COYNE'S notable amendment will be reid with in_ tease interest. A more momentous one never 'yet engaged the attention o f a British House of Com mons. We deeply deprecate its result. We fear it will create a most alarming—indeed an unpiral leled—agitation, from one extremity of the king dom to the other. Among the speakers who took part in this-trtethor able discussion, Mr. HAWKINS deserves to beSinkled out for the masterly way in which he -canvassedtthe great question. A happier union of sound reasoning and impassioned eloquence, than the Hon. 'Nem be.r's speech developed, we never read. Its effect ow the House was prodigious. Mr. NORTII talked in his usual ranting stra;n about the great danger to be apprehended by Church and state from the passing of the Rebrin Mil. On this point, we will just beg leave to ask alp Hon. Member one question. Was thee ever yet an al teration, no matter how frivolous or how important, projected in existing public institutions, which was not met by its opponents by this stale old clamour ? When the Test Acts passed the I-louse of Commons, its enemies swore that it would put Church and State in jeopardy. When Catholic emancipation was carried, the cry was precisely the same; the same also when ,the Forgery Bill was under discussion ; and now, for at -least the hundredth time, when the clamour is ab solutely worn out, Mr. NORTH steps lurch with an abortive attempt to revive it. We envy not the in tellect of that man who can find no newer arguments to ,urge against Reform, than those which have been worn threadbare, and laid aside, by the op ponents of the Test Acts, the Emancipation, asd the Forgery Bills. Sir R. PEEL'S speech differed only from the gene rality of this wondrous statesman's orations, in the absence of self-commendation and vows of indiffe rence to office. Singularly 'enough, he neither praised himself, nor asserted his disinclination to return to the cares and fatigues of Government. The country, we suspect, will be in no hurry to put his sincerity to the test. The debate closed at five o'clock this morning, by a majority against Ministers, and in favour of Ge neral GASCOYNE'S amendment, of eight ! A most sieniflcant—and, under the circumstances, a most ominous—silence followed the announcement of the numbers. The anti-reformers could not muster among them all a single cheer. Why was this? They were thinking of more important matters. They were anticipating, in dread and silence, what would be the probable results of their disastrous triumph. We have little doubt that the liberal and en lightened electors of Southwark will see the neces sity of instantly calling on Sir ROBERT WILSON to surrender back into their bands the representation of the borough. But if they desire to benefit the cause of Reform, they must be speedy in their deter mination. Not an hour must be los•. To vacillate, or procrastinate, at the present awful crisis, is to peril the great question. The boroughmongers must be taught that the people are deter mined on Reform, and will have it. Mean time events are fast hastening to their consum minion. The parley is at an end between the friends of liberty and its opponents. The great battle is now b-gun between them. Timid and narrow minded men despair of success, while the more enlightened and energetic pin their faith on the justice of their cause, and resolve to conquer, . We learn from the pirate correspondent, dated April 16, of a morning cotemporary, that Paris has been again in a state of agitation, in consequence of some riots which the Government expected, and to prevent which they made a prompt display of a vast military force. This display, which. appears to have been premature, produced the very effect it was meant to prevent, and considerable crew& collected in•many of the principal streets, c►ying out vocife rously for a Republic, as the only mewls of producing skating tranquillity. By the lust accounts received order was completely restored. _ . THE MARKETS.-(THIS DAY.) CORN EXCHANGE. There are moderate arrivals of English Grain this week but another large supply of foreign Wheat and Barley. The Wheat trade is extremely heavy today, fine parcels alone support Mon day's prices. Barley tOr Malting is unaltered, grinding sorts are cheaper. Beans and Pease are unvaried. Oats do not meet so free a trade as on Monday, but are not cheaper. lu the flour trade there is no alteration. ARRIVALS. - Wheat. Barley. Oats. I Flour. English Irish - - 85.5 Foreign -- lats. THE FUNDS.-(THIS DAY.) CITY, TWELVE O' CL CK. "We have received by express the Temps of Monday, April 18, from which we give the following : AFFAIRS OF POLAND. • A new victory is announced to-day over the Russians by the Poles. Although no authentic report is arrived, we are enabled to give some details from extracts of letters from Germany, which has caused the above report. It was on the ftth, on the side of Zelechow to the north of Skladevo, one of the branches of the river Wieper, where the Russians wished to concentrate, where the affair took place. They speak of twelve thousand pri soners killed and wounded by the Poles : also thirty or forty pieces of cannon taken ; and that Marshal Diebits,ch was on the point of being made prisoner, when he ordered his corps d'armee to concentrate and retreat, and to pass the Bug on the side of Volhynia. The Caurrier of Warsaw announces, that on the sth of April they learnt in the capital that the Polish troops occupied already the environs of Laskargen and Zelechow, and that the Russian aimy was on the retreat, and its head-quarters were to be at Ryki. A decisive affair is expected. Two hundred and fifty Saxons arrived at Warsaw on the 6th of April, as volunteers. The Journal of Konigsburg gives the following from Sarno getia :—" The Imperial garrison, Russians, evacuated Polangen in the nights of the sth and 6th, to proceed to the Prussian frontiers. All the line of the frontiers, on the side of Georgen. bourg, are still occupied by the insurgents." HALF-PAST TWELVE. • We have experienced a great sensation in the city this morn ing, owing to Ministers being in the minority last night in the House of Commons, which has caused a general outcry and dis satisfaction, and the public are in hopes that his Majesty will be staunch to his people and immediately dissolve the Parliament, which, report from the West End says, will take place this day. But what is more singular, is the rise in the Funds, as there is a prevailing opinion on the Stock Exchange that the Tory Admi nistration will come in. Great.anxiety prevails as to the future operations of Ministers on this event. THE FUNDS. Consols, which left off yesterday at 79N % for the account, opened this morning at 79, and rapidly went up to 79% % and 79% for money. There are no arrivals of importance, and in the Foreign Mar. ket there is nothing doing. . _ HALF-PAST ONE. It appears by the express itom Paris, that all was quiet there ou Monday morning, which commenced with a review by the King, at which his Majesty was received with great enthusiasm by an immense crowd. A person,well dressed, cried out in the Place de Greve " long live Napoleon II." He was immediately arrested. If the intelligence received at Paris of another defeat of the Russians, and their losing 12,000 men, killed, wounded, and prisoners be confirmed, General Diebitsch will be obliged to re treat on the Russian frontiers to re-organize his army. We hear the French Reines are 58f. 89c. - All is conjecture in the City in regard to the intention of Mi nisters last night on their defeat in the Commons. Consols, which were in the early part of the mornin g a t 711% for the Account, have receded to 7914. The well informed ex pect that Ministers will not dissolve Parliament. In the Foreign Market little or nothing doing. THREE 0' CL O CK. Commas 79k. FOUR O'CLOCK.—CLOSING PRICES Consols .... 79/ Danish 6O Ditto for Account 791 Greek, 1825 — Brazilian Bonds.. 57 4 Mexican, 1825 Buenos Ayres.... Chilion Ditto .... Colurnbiiui, 1824 14i Peruvian ........ Russian . B9i Spanish ...... .... 16 NEWMARKET FIRST SPRING MEETING. The Two Thousand Guineas Stakes was won yesterday by Lord Jersey's Riddlesworth, beating Sarpedon, Boh e .. wian, Ciudad Rodrigo, and Philip. The Proprietor of the Oriental Game of Parmelee, or Twenty-five, has had the honour to pr esent to his MAJESTY a Board of this new G ime, wh,,,, h as been most graciously accepted, and this pleasing Chile •will become a fashionable amusement at the Royal evening parties. ______............--,_m_ PRINTED AND PURR... ED DIURDO YOUNG, AT Ilia SUN OFF, 112, • STRAND, LONDON. T Mi tic OTil Sec of t Gut the • ent • abi ✓ is t • bra Ilk 1 r ant eh, irtv tioi l'el ofti of lic Ch No the de] Ca Cr 11 111 in, PI