The Sun. — London, England, 1842-05-12 00:00:00

y °tit wiutiti,n SUN-OFFICE, Seven o Clock. SPIRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS. FROM THE EVENING PAPLMS OF THIS DAY. GLOBE.—Time —the infallible test of sincerity— has effected the object of Tory hopes, by placing the powers of government in Tory hands. The New Poor-laWaWhich at the last two elections was used by the Tory candidates as a topic of inflammatory in vective against the Whigs, on whom they charged not only its original authorship, but the severities which incidentally arose out of its administration — this mitch-midigned law was about to expire just as the Tories possessed themselves of the Govern ment. . One of their first acts, as a Tory majority, was to consent to a Bill thr continuing the law in its pristine form until the :ilst of duly next. This the public. - Were assured by the Tory organs was only to enable theaCabinet of Sir Robert Peel to mature those comprehensive changes in the law that Were in con templation, by which the Bill would be so completely deprived 0C every stringent test and severe provision, that when' it 7:'esas finth from the Cabinet to the House of Commons, and was exhibited to • the country, it Nvuttl4l be a. monument of praise to the ne‘v, and a standing ropeaaelm to the old Government ! It has been, We doubt not, carefully and anxiously con sidered. We do not qu estion that each of its leading provisions has been the subject of deliberation, not metely by the department of the Government on which more 4immediately devolved the ditty of preparing the new Bill, but by the entire Cabinet. With what result' With the exception of the bastardy clause, which t. be somewhat modified, the machinery and operation of the Will are to replant substantially the same a, under" the pre snit law.. In the language of the Time 3, :fames Graham's Biil is a mere copy of that brOnatht in by Lord John Itussell. The occu piers of, the Tory benches, who had vituperated the lase and its authors from the hustings, now listened to the: , announcement of a- similar measure from her „Ilimyesty's ;overnment with perict acquiescence in its and humanity ! As though tci afford a demonStration' 'of the perfect subjection. to which the linuleat c lamourers against the Bill have been redueed. - by the discipline of the Tory Premier, the " Gilbert Unions " are swept away by the proposed Bill. Thus the united parishes, which possessed the powers of local government by the Act, generally known as the " Gilbert Act," and which powers were. claimed •for the parishes of the . entire kingdom by those who advocated the abolition of the Central Commissioners, are brought under the general law. ' The invidiousdistinction between the " Gilbert Unions," and the " New Poor-law Unions," which was employed for the purposes of instituting compa risons between the treatment of the paupers under the two systems, and the powers of out-door relief to able , bodied paupers given to the guardians of the former and, withheld from the latter, will now no longer exist. 'lime law will be, as we think it ought to be, universal in its operation. STANDARD.—The draft of the New Poor-law Bill, and the speech by which Sir James Graham in troduced the measure last night, place us in a very painful situation—a situation which, we believe, will be equally , painful to all - the honest supporters of Sir Robert Peel's administration. The Bill, will, doubtless, pass; because men will. prefer any alterna tive to a return to - Whig-Radical" government; but it will pass at a fearful cost to the Conservative party: , All the declarations against the vices of the sew Poor-law, which turned so many elections l4st, sum Mer, will be set down as sheer hypostaiky, ; s and. the charge will derive counte llamas-I)nm tco many manifestations of selfishness, made in opposition to the Corn-laws, the Income tax, and - the Tariff. It will he said, and plausibly said, that the poor are thmight of only on the hustings. We du not disguise from ourselves that the Ministers are placed , in a position of great difficulty with re spect to the Poor-laws: They‘ find a law in existence which has been long enough in force to have struck roots, brariching through all the orders of society : to tear up this law at once by the roots would produce little short of a social revolution. That the law has utterly failed of all that was pfomised for it; that, in stead of raisin , the price of labour, it has lowered wages'; that, instead of improving morals, by its baa tardy clauses, it has greatly corrupted the mo , rals of the lower orders; that, instead 'of di minishing the number of paupers, it has fright fully augmented that number—for who will ven ture to say that eight years ago every six teengm, ,EngliShrimu was a pauper, absolutely and totally dependent npUn the poorrate ?—that these. -have been, the effects of the-new law is note rious, and even confessed. Equally. notorious is it that "the conilitioo - 'of the pauper clans, now :mg mentemtiiioe tletn eile 'million of our fellow-citizens, has isein Made infinitely more miserable. And what has beam iheseountorbalancing good . s.-s-eis saving in the ' poor frees of a aunt .lass than used to be wasted in liti ~•a ion under the old law. and which, therefore, might e ' ; 'avelliANAVed isthotit, t. etching the legitimate autho rity orilieTatepavers, or the condition of the poor; which might have been saved by the erection of a cheap tribunal to determine settlement cases; or, better still, by a comprehensive reform in the administration of the law, rendering all law proceedings cheap. This is. the history of the working of that law which Ministers have inherited, and which we acknowledge it would be dangerous to extirpate by a summary enactment but surely between its con tinuance ha all its vices, and a summary extinction there might be found a better mean than that which Sir James Graham appears to suggest—some mean, corrective of the principle of the law, •for there is its greatest vice. That principle is to treat poverty av a crime, punishable by death, or the petin., y . time workhouse. That out-door relief has been allowed proves nothing against the principle. Relief may mean anything—half-starvation, or three-quarters starvation, or whatever else falls short of suffering the object to die of famine; but that the out-door relief spoken of must be something worse than the work house treatment and dietary must be plain, for, as men do not love imprisonment, were not the out door relief worse than the workhouse, every work house The' - `kinealom would be untenanted. COUltlEll.-LSIr James 'Graham, ably prepared and courageously priinel, ventured last evening to approach the .most momentous 'question of all the Session.' After a speech of :unquestionable power, and. remarkably disciplined temper, he asked and obtained leave tots bring in the Bill long talked about, yet ever shriiikingly postponed till now, for the con tinuation and amendment of the new Poor-law. He preluded the motion and the main argument of the measure by a laboured dissertation on the history of poor-laws, and he cited carefully, as the chief au thorities in support of the new Vstem, two names of very opposite character, of opinions very dissonant in gen era), of talentsstrangelycontradictory,andofwei g ht in the mind's eye of the nation most unequally dis proportioned, but who yet, on this one most important itiestion of questions were singularly unanimous in accord—we refer to the Great Duke and ex-Lord Chancellor Brougham. On almost any subject to which he may apply the extraordinary acuteness of his comprehensive mind, we need not say that we are disposed to bow with almost unquestioning de ferenee to the conclusions of the Duke of Welling ton.. Therefore it is always with the deepest re gret•tthat We feel ourselves conscientiously compelled o wOl3l - li7aw.' as it were.; our allegiance on the sire sent; 'as on all occasions, where the new Poor-law and its administration are the order of the day and of dis cussion. Our own_ minds have long been made up on the tact that , the new Poor-law system is neither more nor less than an unconstitutional abrogation of the rights of the subject, for, in despite Of Lord Brougham, we hold that the right to relief is abractedlY a right its sacred at the least a's that o f . p roperty,, however practically it may be abolished, or cut, carved, and crippled in it proportii sis b y s And the new system moreover is as unchristian in its provisions as it is unconstitutional in p r i nc i p l e. And what does the argument of Sir Ja mes G raham amount to, when labouring to show that the sys tem has not worked with the unvarying hardships !harged upon it, for that in truth the system,' as a whole, has not been astiplied in all its naked' hide easness of uniformity. Wlmv, such being the fact, one of the great and leading features of the new Poor-law, one which in Lord Brougham s eyes, and in the eyes of all its eulogists and advocates, constituted its chief recommendation, has been abandoned, vitiated, viblated, at will or dis cretion, by the very authorities to whom its enforce ment was delegated. That leading feature was its Ntated uniformity ; its chief beauty was said to be, that by one simple law, and by one uniform and un varying administration in practice, the 12,000 bete regeneous and differing systems prevailing in as many parishes of the kingdom, would at once, with all their almsea and confusion, be remedied and harmoniously replaced. QUEEN'S BENCH. -(THIS DAY.) Lord DENMAN disposed of a few , short causes this morning of no general interest, after which the Court c;iseharged the jury, and adjourned at half-past twclvP o'clock. EXCHEQUER.—(THIS DAy.) CLOVE V. DENT AND ANOTHER. This was an action framed in several counts, the principal of which were, that the defendants had im properly disposed of certain goods, the property o f t h e plaintiff ; that , they had continued in posses s i on of the plaintiti 's 'house ; and that they had assaulted the plaintiff's wife and imprisoned her. It appeared that the plaintiff rented a house from the defendant Dent, in Seymour-place, - Bryanstone-squar e , in which he carried on the business of a pubhcail, An arrcar of rent, to thcaniount of 181, having heeoine.dne. to the defers last on the 25th of September last, he levied distress on the goods of the plaintiff, and employed a person of the name of Morgan, who was the - second defendant .in the case, to distrain tht goods. Morgan continued for a week in possession, without being authorised to do so, it was contended, and con trary to the Statute. An arrangement (the precise cha racter and attendant circumstances of which it was very difficult to determine from the evidence given on both sides) was entered into between the wife of the plaintiff and a persOn of the name of Woodgate, who was to become the new tenant of Mr. Dent, by which it was agreed that she should give up possession of the house and the fixtures, on condition that this should be accepted in payment of the rent due, and that she should receive a sum of money in addition, for any goods that might be on the premises. On the Monday following the day of this agreement, the plain tiff's wife came to claim of the defendant the money which she supposed was due to her. There arose on that occasion some misunderstanding between the par ties ; the woman became very violent in her conduct ; and she was then given into the custody of two police men, who deposed to her having been drunk at the time. The charge against her, on her removal to the Police • office, was abandoned on condition that she should not return to the house, or molest the defendants. She was then dismissed ; but having again returned, and secreted her: of in the house she was again removed to the sta tion-house 1- lelit The Jury, after a short tie. ~:ra for the defendant in the sum of 5L n, found a verdict FOREIGN MAILS.-(THIS DAY.) A numerous and highly respectable meeting took place to-day at the London Tavern, Bishopsgate-street, pur suant to advertisement, for the purpose of considering the Lest measures to be adopted for effecting the more spee.ty delivery of the mails from the East and the West Indies the Al Qditerranean, the Levant, and the Peninsular. Several Members of Parliament were present, and some of the most influential gentlemen of the City. W. Calwronn, Esq., the late Member for the City, en taking the chair, observed tha, before they pro ceeded to the business upon which they had met, he had to express his deep regret that the Chair was not filled 'by a gentleman who had given his pointed attention to the subject of their proceedings that day—he alluded to Sir G. Larpent, whom, he was sorry to say was confined to his house by indisposition. He (Mr. Crawford) had, in :hat gentletitan's absence consented to take the Chair, in the hope that the proceedings of the present meeting. would, at an early day, Le productive of. much good. It was the wish of those through whose instrumentality the present meeting had been convened, to impress upon her Majesty's Government, by the weight of such an as- semblage as the present, the necessity of their interfer ence its the topics for which the meeting was called. The course that was proposed to be taken to-day was, merely to confine themselves to the. fact, that for the purpose of communication with the Peninsula, the Mediterranean, the ,East and West Indies, and the Levant, the port of Soythampton . was by far more convenient for the . ',arrival and departure of the mails than the pOrt of Falmouth. It was not proposed to enter into any discussion with respect to the question that had been brought forward else where with respect to the ports of Dartmouth, because he felt convinced, that if it could Le shown that that port was preferable to Southampton, there was no gentlemen present who would not gladly accede to that. That was a matter in embryo, but this he might say, that his own opinion was, that the expec tations in that respect would never be. realised. The object of the meeting that day was clearly set out in the circular which had been issued, showing the advantages that would be obtained on the receipt of letters brought di rect from Malta to Southampton. It was not disputed that with respect to the Peninsular mails, great advantage had been derived, particularly in the change of the day. Under the present syStem, persons engaged - in commerce with the Peninsular, if they chose to evade the Post office regulations, could carry on their correspondence with greater facility than those who obeyed the law.— (Hear, hear.) 'With these observations he would call upon the gentlemen entrusted to move the resolutions that had been prepared for the adoption of the meeting to do so. Mr. BAGSHAIVE then rose to propose the first resolu tion. It was so comprehensive that be need not apolo gise to the meeting for any inability On his part to do it justice. He thought he could not do better, therefore, than read it to the meeting. The numbers and respectability of which the present meeting was composed, and the fact of the requisition being signed by the members of every house connected With the Mediterranean and Pen insular and Eastern trade, gave hope that what would emanate from that meeting would have the desired effect. A memorial had been drawn up, to the Lords of the Treasury pointing out the advantages derivable from the removal of the Packet-station from Falinouth to Southampton, and re questing that object might be carried into effect. The resolution which he should have the honour to propose for the aEoptiou of the meeting was as follows : "That it appears to the meeting that the existing arrangements by which the contract steam-vessels em ployed in the transmission of the East and West Indian, Mediterranean, Levant, and Peninsular mails are compelled to take on board and deliver their .mails at the• port of Falmouth, is productive of very serious detriment to the public interests, inasmuch as nu merous instances have been and continue to be furnished • by the arrival of the vessels, to prove beyond contro versy, that were they permitted to proceed direct from and to Southampton. and there receive and deliver the ' Mails, -the letters would, under ordinary circumstances be delivered in London considerably earlier than they now are, in consequence of being landed at Falmouth. That the alteration is the more important, from the fact that Whereas the Mails are now necessarily dispatched from London on the last. day of each month, another day would, by the contemplated change, be gained, inas much as they would then be forwarded on the evening of the first of the ensuing month, as shown by the state ment before the meeting.". DALLAS, Esq., seconded the resolution, which he observed was so full in details, that little was required of him to say on the subject. Previously to the formation of the Government contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, great delay oc curred in the dispatch of the Mediterranean and Eastern Mails, one day was lost at Falmouth, four at Gibraltar, and three at Malta. All this was now done away with. But still a delay which might be guarded against, occurred even now at Falmouth, where the lettere for the East which were transmitted in a bulk from London, were assorted for Alexan dria, Bombay, Calcutta, and other parts of the East. The delay thus occasioned could be remedied by having the letters assorted in London, and transmitted at once to Southampton. E. DIVETT, Esq., M.P., would trouble the meeting with a few observations, and at the same time suggest an amendment to the resolution now proposed. The point on which he was at issue with the Gentleman who had ' just preceded him, was the indication of any particular port. He thought that there object ought to be to con . - sider the best means of ascertaining by an impartial exa mination what might be the most eligible port at which to establish the mail station. His opinion was that it would turn out on examination that some port consider ably to the west of. Southampton, would be found the most eligible. It was of the utmost importance to have the letters carried es far as possible by land; and if they could have a port at ~Land's-end it would be the best place. The Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving an amendment to the effect " That the importance of the rapid and early trans mission of the mails to and from this country, the. Last and West Indies, the Mediterranean ports, &c., be made the subject. of earnest representation to and from the merchants of London to her Majesty's Government, in order to the selection of a port which should best secure that object at all seasons of the year ; and that letters, which should arrive after the departure of the ordinary mails,"should he forwarded by mails established espe cially for that purpose." 111 HusT, in seconding the amendment, ebserved, that if they persisted in pointing put:Sonthampton as the best station, they would not , have the, whole country unanimously with them. It would be otherwise if they left the selection to the'Government. • Captain THORNTON, R.N., trusted that as Director of the Universal Life Insurance - Company, and also of the Peninsular and Oriental - Steam Navigation Com pany, he might be permitted to make a few observation's - on the present subject. Those Companies considered 'a r apid communication with India as of paramount im= portanee to them. At present they obtained their let ters via Marseilles, but as they expected their couimu ca tions with the East would greatly increase, they were. anxious .to promote the facility and rapidity of the trans mission or letters to and from that quarter and this coun try: Ile - said it as a seaman, that it was of the ut m o s t i m portance that there should be one point only selected from which letters should be transmitted to and at which • they should be received from both the East and the • West Indies. To have two ports for that purpose was not only unnecessary, but was attended with great danger to, and frequently great loss of life. Freedom from great danger, and much in convenience would result to the Company of which he , was the director, if their vessels had not to call at. Pal month: after having left Southampton. He trusted that such a representation of the matter would be laid before Government as to render nugatory the influence 'of any local interest in the matter. After a few words from Mr. I.l,tcsilAw, to the effect of influenced convin ce d t h at M r. D i vett was incapable of being by any private or interested views in the course which that Hon. Gentleman had adopted on the present occasion, The am en d ment was put from the Chair and negatived. v The original resolution was then put and carried with but one or two dissentients. The next resolution, proposed by Mr. Fost er an d se conded by Mr. Scholefield, was as follows : " That with regard to the Peninsular mails, besides this disadvantage in retarding their delivery, theadcli tional and very serious e vil of a week's delay in the course of post is incurred, as there would be ample time, were the letters delivered at.Southarepton, t o re ply to them by the outgoing mail of the same week, whereas, by the existing arrangement, the letters are de livered never less than two days after the departure of the outward mails ; and that an alteration in the day and hour of departure of these vessels is required to be made simultaneously witk the change in the post of arrival and departure. Mr. DIVETT, M.P., said, that as he must now leave the meeting, he would take the liberty of departing from the usual course, and now move the thanks of the meet ing to the Chairman. Mr. BAGSIIAW seconded the motion. The CHAIRMAN observed that he should acknowledge the compliment at the proper time, namely, the close of the proceedings. • - On the motion of Captain MANGLES, the memorial re ferred to was then read by the Secretary, and adopted by the meeting. S. Moos, Esq., seconded by HUNTER, Esq., moved a resolution, thanking the Doha of Egypt for the ties which his Highness afforded for the transmission or English letters through his dominions.—Carried. After the dispatch of some routinebusiness, the Chair man returned thanks, and the meeting separated. TATTERSALL'S.—THIS EVENING. Six o'CLocx. 5 to 2 agst Frederica 7 to 2 agst Attila 9 to 1 agst Canadian 12 to 1 agst Auckland 12 to 1 agst Jack 22 to 1 agst Chatham 22 to 1 agst Lasso 30 to 1 agst Meteor 40 to 1 agst Tiptoe 40 to 1 *.:gst Barrier 45 to 1 agst Agreeable IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. (THIS EVENING.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour, but there being only 32 Members present, the House adjourned. HOUSE OF LORDS• The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at FiNe o'Clock. THE ADJOURNMENT. The Duke of said, he should to-morrow move the adjournment of the House to that day week the 20th May. Messengers from the Commons, brought up several private Bills. The Earl of..oaroaD was introduced by the Earl of Roseberry, and Lord STOPFORD, took the oaths and his seat. The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL moved for a re turn of all resolutions passed by the Boards 'of Guardians, under the Poor-law Commission, in Ire land, since sth May, 18 41.—Ordered. Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from Halifax against the Corn and Provision-laws. POOR-L- AWS. Lord WHARNCLIFFE laid on the table the eighth annual report of the Poor-law Commission. DUBLIN POLICE BILL. On the motion of Lord WHARNCLIFFE, the Dublin Police Bill was read a second 'time. The Noble Lord said, the object of the Bill was to place the Dublin police force bn precisely the same footing as the London police. HOPS. The Earl of WINCHILSEA presented a petition from Maidstone, praying for an alteration in the bas tardy clauses in the Poor-laws. Also a petition from Kent against the reduction in the duty on foreign hops. The petitioners stated that the reduction con templated by the Government of 2/. per ton would ruin their trade. He was happy to say that it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to pro pose so low a duty as 21., for if they did so it would entirely annihilate the trade in this country. Earl FITZWILLIA AI said that, supposing the reduction in the duty on hops would injure the trade, the land would remain capable of being turned to any other purpose. Now what he wanted to draw the attention of the House and the Noble Earl to, was another point. The other night a conversation arose respecting . the employment of per sons in mines. His Noble Friend then expressed great anxiety concerning the morals of that part of the population, which he said was seriously injured by, the employment of females and children in those mines. IN ow, as his Noble Friend was so exceed ingly desirous of protecting the morals of the inhabi tants in the manufacturing districts, he would recom mend the Noble Earl to look a little more to the morals of the persons in the districts with which he was more immediately connected. He (the Earl of Fitzwilliam) would turn his attention to what 'occurred in the ground during the time of hop picking.—(Loud laughter.) If he would look to those females, then it would be more useful than his turning his attention to those who delved in the bowels of the earth. The LORD CHANCELLOR—They go from London.—(Lau.,, ,, hter.) Earl FITZWILLIAM—Yes ; they went from London to corrupt the fine morals of the districts with which the Noble Earl was connected. Now, surely the Noble Earl oughtto endeavour to prevail upon the Government to which he gave his support, to put an im port duty upon those articles which were brought down from London into those very pure places lest they should corrupt the morals of the females, and it might perchance be bythe males—(A laugh)—in the very pure districts of Kent and Sussex. The Earl of WINCHILSEA—The injury in flicted by taking away the protection from the hop grower would not affect the hop-grower only but would be very detrimental to the agriculturl interest. There were thousands of acres of woodland in the county of Kent. which would be utterly valueless if it were not for the hop-gardens. He himself sold about 125 acres of woodland yearly. It was cut down and used for poles for the hop gardens. If the hop gardens were destroyed he should not sell more than 35 acres, for ash poles, and elm poles, and all these poles were of no use except for the hop-gardens. Now that would be a great loss to the labouring classes who were employed in these wood-lands. Great numbers of labourers were likewise employed in the cultivation of the hop-gardens ; it was true in some districts they had induced an artificial increase in the population, and if the duty was taken off foreign hops, they would all be in a state of distress. The Noble Earl had recommended him to look to the morals of the population in his own immediate neighbourhood. He begged to state that there was no district in which he had not established schools capable of affording edu cation for the whole of the population. All he asked was, that the hop-grower should have a fair protec.. tion such as was given to other classes. Earl FITZWILLIAM said that it appeared then that the protection was to be continued, not so much for the sake of the hops as for the sake of the woodlands. The Earl of WICKLOW rose to order. If Noble Lords made speeches on the presentation of petitions in this manner, they would never be able to get through the business. Earl FITZWILLIAM would move that the House do adjourn, and thus put himself in order. If the Noble Earl opposite had always interfered when any thing disorderly had occurred—whenever any conver sation had taken place across the table, on the presentations of petitions, he would have bowed with submission to the Noble Earl's interference. In moving that the House do now adjourn, he should make or two observations on what had fallen from the Noble Earl on the subject of these woods ; ,it appeared that they were to protect the hops, not for the sake of the hops, but for the sake of the growers of the wood —where woods became less valuable, it was customary to destroy them, and he had no doubt the Noble Earl had himself been a great destroyer of woods ; so in the case of woods cultivated for the sake of hops, if they became less valuable. they might be destroyed, and that should be the case instead of protecting the hops for the sake of the woods. He would beg to direct the attention of the Hotise to the alteration about to he made in the duties on foreign timber, which he apprehended would have more effect in deteriorating the value of woods—and he did not regret that, be cause he thought timber ought to be cheap—than any alteration in the hop duties would have in diminish ing the value of woods grown in the counties of )sent and. Sussex. He had some knowledge of tlie woods there, some of them might be cultivated for the purpose of hop poles, but he thought by far the greater part was the natural produce of the coun try. He begged to move that the House do now adjourn .—(Laughter) The question was then put, and after a few words from the Earl of WINCHILSEA, in explanation, . Earl FITZWILLIAM said, with regard t o the employment of females in mines, he did not run into such extravagant opinions as he had seen expressed. The condition of those employed was influenced by the width of , the coal teams ; perhaps it might be desirable to prohibit the employment of children in mines, but the necessity of employing children arose from the thinness of the seams. If Noble Lords would read the Report with any knowledge of mining, they would see that the employment of children was almost entirely confined to the thin seams of the coal-mines of the West Riding of Yorkshire and Lancashire. The Earl of WICKLOW rose to explain that he meant no disrespect to the Noble Lord when he called him to order ; it was caused by the Noble Lord's irregularity ; if they were to take the House collectively, there were no three Members of it who were guilty of so much irregularity as the Noble Lord. On a recent occa sion he had made no less than five speeches on a sin gle. petition. Lord REDESD ALE said, in the discussion the other night, the Noble Lord had himself got up in his place and observed, that he hoped a new rule would be established, in order that the proceedings might be more orderly. Earl FITZWILLIAM—Make a rule. Lord REDESDALE—The Noble Lord said make a rule. There was a rule already in existence, which AN as for general purposes sufficiently strict, but unques tionably that rule might be abused. He thought that when a Noble Lord was called to order he should bow to the call, and not put himself in order, by moving an adjournment, thus evading the rule of the House, and causing great inconvenience. The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the mo tion for an adjournment, which was negatived without a division: . f t n9,71-fl.f T 'Fiat; ‘:l_7N LONDON, THURSDAY EVL-4 -1 N N , MAC' F ) ,, 1842. INCOME-TAX. I }The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he rose in conformity with:the notice which he had put upon the paper, to move for certain returns relating . to the ex emption of foreigner& from the operation of the tax, commonl y c alled the Income and Property-tax. In doing so he did not wish to • engage the House in auy premature discussion with regard to the me rits of the property. tax rpon the contrary, he would confine himseic,s4l4ly. to .the point to which these returns related ; • and if he deemed it . his duty to make some observations in moving for such returns, his justification must be the great importance of the subject. The rea son why he called. their attention to this sub 7 ject was, that unquestionably this was the first time the income enjoyed by foreigners • in other parts of the world, arising from property in this country, had been made the subject of taxation. There was, he believed, soon after the Revolution, an at tempt made to place a duty on income, but early in the course of the first French war; Mr. Pitt intro duced an Incometax upon all 'incomes - enjoyed by parties in England, - but it never occurred to Mr. Pitt that it was just, equitable,: or expedient, to include foreigners is in the - operation of that tax. Subsequently that tax- was , determined with the war with which it originated, afterwards Lord Sidmouth proposed what,. Was called a Property-tax, but which did not materially differ from the other tax, and that imposition was not ex tended to foreigners. Two years afterwards it fell to his lot, in concert -with the Government with which he was connected, to propose an alteration and modi fication of the Property -tax so introduced ; but it never occurred to those with whom he had acted, that it would either be expedient or just to extend the Act to foreigners possessed of property in the funds. I . le might here say that a very natural change did take place in the measure, which so far altered its forM and appearance with re spect to the funds, as to suggest the, idea of fo reigners being taxed. By the consent of all parties and the Bank, Directors they * were enabled to act as Commissioners, and th e y received at the Bank that portion of the fund which was sub, to taxation, and subje c t a l so t o go i n t o th e public purse. But they did so as CommissionerS. It was a deduction made from the tax on incomes, which they would find was gradually and carefully provided for in a clause of that Act, constituting the Directors to act as Commissioners under the Income-tax, showing that it was not a tax en the funds, but a tax on incomes, for which purposes they Were made Commissioners. It was then suggested for the first time that it would be ex pedient to include foreigners in' other countries, not being subjects of his Majesty, ander the operation of the tax, But he (i,ord L.) recollected that the sug gestion was resisted with the very general concur rence of House, and in the course of what had passed very strong opinions were given that it would be both ,unjust and inexpedient to subject that species of property to the tax. He adverted to this, because he heard that Mr. Fox, whose opinion was naturally considered to be of great importance, had objected to the inclusion of foreigners in the tax as a matter of expediency only, and not as a matter of justice. Ile (Lord L.) entirely differed on that point, and he referred to . the . report of Mr. Fox's opinions, the words of which he had read to their Lordships, and he would leave them to judge whether they would consider Mr. Fox's opinion to be one found e d on ex pediency. Mr. Fox said, " that he differed from the opinion expressed by the Honourable Gentleman (Sir P. Francis) on the subject. For his part, he considered a tax such as he recommended a shameful confiscation. The Bill under the consideration of the Committee was not one for taxing foreigners, but British sub jects. He thought such a measure was a flagrant breach of faith, and that if the revenue was to cease, yet he thought it his duty to reject it. Now, whether right or . wrong, he apprehended that the opinion of Mr. Fox was opposed to the injustice, and not alone to the inexpediency of the tax ; and let it be recollected that Mr. Fox was giving his opinion conformably with the course of conduct pursued by Mr. Pitt, and again by Mr. Addington, and which, when Mr. Fox unhappily ceased to exist, was pursued by Mr. Percival when the question was brought under the consideration of Parliament. He affirmed that there was here a mass of authority against the inexpediency and injustice of including foreigners in the tax; and when the Bill for taxing the property of England was first introduced, the declarations successively made in Parliament were calculated to give foreigners an inducement to become creditors. to this country, and that the property which they placed in, the funds would be free from taxation. These foreigners should be treated in the same way as a mortgagee in this country should be treated by his mortgager. They said if these foreigners who were their creditors were disatisfied they must sell out—that was an argument which might be carried a great deal too far, because, it might be applied some day to the English creditors, and it might be said to them if they were dissatisfied, that they might sell out It all those cases, however, where the Nnglish creditor should be hurt it would be his own fault, because he was represented in Parliament, but the foreigner had no means of being represented in Parliament, he had 'lent them money on the promise that he should receive the dividend free, and without de duction. That was the opinion he entertained as to the justice, or rather the injustice of this proceeding ; and if lie entertained so strong an opinion as to the injustice of the proceeding, he also entertained a strong opinion on its inexpediency, be cause he could not see that the adding- of some 10,0001. or . 20,000/. or 3 0,0001. a-year to a tax of many millions, was to be in the least compared with that reputation and established credit for . which so long distinguished in this al country parts of thelaad i b v e o e r n l d A case might occur at some distant period, .when they might be called upon to uphold the security o f the British in other countries ; and then they might employ, if they could, the argument that .they Thad in the midst of all their distresses they carefully guarded themselves against the slightest deduction of that in terest which they had to pay to the foreign creditor. He had seen with great sorrow any att e mpted deviation from that cause which had been adopted for so many years in this country, and which had the sanction of so many Parliaments. He had taken the opportunity of stating his opinion on this matter, in moving for these returns. He did not know whether the papers for which he moved could be produced ; he knew it was very likely that a great part of them had been involved in that sort of auto da f e which had caused such de struction amongst the papers. If, however, they were not destroyed, they might, perhaps, be obtatned from some returns which had been moved for in the other House. The . Noble Marquis, by moving for a re turn of the exemptions given to foreigners from the Income-tat on former occasions. The Earl of RIPON did not apprehend that there could be any objection to the motion of the Noble Mar quis, or any difficulty in complying with it. The sub ject was undoubtedly one of great importance; and the Noble Marquis was perfectly entitled in forming with respect to it the opinion to which he had come. H e (the Earl of Ripon) confessed, however, that he had not been satisfied by the reasoning of the Noble Marquis, that the proposal to subject the property of foreigners to the same impost, as other property, was an unjust proposal. He did not think that there would be any violation of the principles of justice in calling upon all parties who had an interest in the maintenance of the public credit of this country to contribute to tha public burdens. Mr. Pitt had no doubt ex empted the property of foreigners from the Income-tax ; but it appeared to him (the Earl of Ripon) that in doing so he had been influenced, not So Much: by - Considerations of abstract justice, as by considerations of policy and public expediency. At the time when Mr. Pitt's . was imposed this country was Property-tax bjeeted to great and unusual burdens ; and it was thought admissible under those cir cumstances that every possible means should be resorted to for the purpose of ruining the credit of the country, in order to give increased facility for raising that Mr. d M i l l • 0 . tF seeox shewewm circumstances public loans. The same remark applied to the taxes were imposed ; although he was ready to admit under which subsequent Property egsonapep7 on the prin ciples'of abstract justice. He confessed, however, that e t d ie to pr l i i n a c v i e ; 1" • ' • 1 .• .d in the case. The property-tax was imposed for the purpose of avoid ing perpetual borroWing, consequently in that point of view the foreigner had the same interest in any measure that might have the effect of avoid ing that necessity in the holders of that property a Englishman had ? He had the same interest in the welfare of the public credit, as any other person who had property in the public funds. He (the Earl of Ripon) coutd; therefore, see no grounds of abstract injustice, in calling on the foreigner to contribute his share to the tax. Lord MONTEAGLE would take that opportunity of saying , a few words on the subject. The Noble Earl who had just sat down had made no answer to the observation of the Noble Marquis behind him (the Marquis of Lansdowne,) in respect to the altered cir cumstances of the country since the time of the first enactment of the Property-tax. He (Lord I.lonteagle) would admit, for argument sake, and for argument sake alone, that f ore i gners had ) . een exempted upon selfish grounds, for the mere purpose of keeping up the. fund. Assuming this, the foreigner would expect that he would be protected by the Legislation, as he had been previously with respect to a case of expediency, the expediency was now felt more than ever. This course must effect British invest ments in foreign st oc k s . Let the Noble Earl compare the list of the funds in 1797 or 1798 to 1803, or 4 in 1814, or 15, with the list now and he would then find the enormous mass of British capital, which a t the present moment was in vested in the foreign f un d s , all attendant upon the fate of foreign Governments. .I.intorior Governments had been scrupulous on this point, and he thought the present Government ought to be equally semi—!, and what was the sum to be raised by this muse ? The Noble Earl estimated it at from 10,0001. to 30,0001. a year, but it Wonld certainly be below the mean of that sum. He thought this' course would endanger British cipital abroad. Lord BROUGHAM said he did not wish to pro long the discussion which perly introduced. He entirely agreed With his Noble Friend that it would be exceedingly unwise to extend the Property-tax to foreigners, that it.,would , be highly inexpedient for the sake of the trilling sum which could be obtained from foreigners by means of this- tax, to give a pretext to other countries to deal in a similar way with funds of ours which were under their control. He thought unless the justice of it was so manifest that no argument against it could be adduced it would be exceedingly impolitic, especially when he consi dered how much larger was the stake of this country in foreign funds than the stake of foreigners in English funds. He thought the authorities which his Noble Friend had cited on the subject—the authority of Mr. Fox, of Lord Grey, and of Lord Grenville, entirely established the point, and he hoped that after what had been stated his motion would be acceded to If the matter was delayed until' the Bill came up ibr discussion, it would be too late for his Noble Friend's purpose. The Earl of WICKLOW could not see any in justice in taxing the foreigner who had money in our funds ; and he thought, if foreigners were exempted, a door would be opened to fraud, inasmuch as E nglishmen residing abroad would put money into the English funds in the name of foreigners. If they escaped taxation it must fall heavier on our own subjects, and with regard to the precedent set to other countries, he thought they would not hesitate if they imposed a property-tax, in making foreigners contribute to it. Lord BROUGHAM explained, that he did *not allude to foreigners resorting to a measure of a precisely similar nature. But human nature was so unfortunately constituted, that if we did one unjust act, the probability was that the would resort to another still more unjust, and quote our own injus tice as the precedent. The Duke of NEWCASTLE objected to the im- J position of,the IncOme,tax. He could, not agree with the Noble and Learned Lord in considering it expe dient, and was surprised at his approving of it. Lord BROUGHAM—I said it was unfortunately necessary, and that I yielded to the painful necessity. The Duke Of NEWCASTLE could not see the necessity---of-iti-- -He-thought they could do without it, and although he was glad to give his support to the Government, he objected to to the Property tax and the Tariff. Lord MELBOURNE rose, and was (LEFT SPEAKING.) We have reason to believe that her Majesty's Mi nisters are in possession of a late dispatch, forwarded by Alajor Pottinger to the authorities at Calcutta. The dispatch in question. we understand, adds nothing to what was previously known of the state of affairs in Affghanistan ; but it completely exonerates General Elphinstone, assigning the blame of the late disaster to a different quarter, or rather to different quarters —for the council of war comes in for a share.—Evening Paper. A Gentleman in passing through a village in De vonshire, asked a boy if he had been taught the Church Ca techism, he replied, " Yes, Sir." " Do you know what is meant by your ghostly enemy ?" " Yes, Sir, my mother says that our jack-ass is my ghostly enemy, for he is always trying to kick me." The village schoolmaster is, indeed abroad. AUPEhIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMO S, May 11. POOR-LAWS. Sir J. GRAHAM rose to move for leave to bring in the Poor-law Continuance Bill. He said, since the commencement of the session, the attention of the House - had - been - directed to various sub jects, involving the interests of large Asses of the community, and in expressing opinions on those topics much animosity and angry feeling had been excited. But with respect to the important subject which it was now his duty to bring under the consideration of the House, though it involved the interests of a very numerous class of society, yet it was the class of the pour and needy, and destitute, and no angry passions need be excited in the discussion to which he then invited them. On the con trary, the subject appealed to the compassion, and kinder feelings, of every gentleman he addressed, and he hoped the House would entertain it in the genuine spirit -of charity, benevolence, and good-will. He need not enter into a history of the Poor-laws ; it had always been a distinguished boast of their policy that throughout England and Wales the law had made pro visions for the poor and needy, and had taken precautions that none should perish of want, or that the sick, the aged and infirm, should be deprived of proper care. From an early period of the reign of Elizabeth up to within the last fifteen years, no material alteration had taken place in the machinery for affording relief. There had been an annual appointment by the Magis trates of an overseer, to whom the care of the poor had been entrusted—the power of con trol over those overseers being vested in the Magistrates. Until the year 1819 this machinery had continued unaltered ; under that system the annual sum required for the relief of the poor rapidly increased, and although the attention of the Legislature had been frequently directed to the subject, little of a remedial nature had been suggested—(Hear)— until the year 1819, when Mr. Sturges Bourne, 'whose name he could not mention without offering a passing tribute of respect to him, as a Man who had made an effort to remedy a great public grievance, when, as lie had said Mr. Sturges Bourne introduced a . Bill vesting, instead of in the hands of the overseers, in the_ hands of a select body appointed by the . magistracy, the power of granting relief. That power, however, was still continued under the control of the ma gistracy. That • measure, however, bad been only partly adopted, and some remedy . was required for the increasing evil. This increase in the charge for the maintenance of the poor was but a small portion of the evil. Coincident with that increase, there had arisen a frightful system, utterly destructive of the independ ence of the lahourer—(Hear, hear)—a system of affording relief in aid of wages, by which the employer shifted the burden of paying the labourer to the shoulders of others who did not derive any profit from his labour. So matters stood until 1831. In that year, by the Go• vernment of Lord Grey, a Commission was appointed spe cially to inquire into the subject of the relief of the poor ; and when he considered the abuses which were pointed out in the Report of the Commission, he thought all 'gentlemen whom he had the honour of addressing would agree with him, when he stated that he was not exaggerating the importance of that Report in the least, that no public document had ever exposed a system of snore alarming evil,. or of greater abuse, than had been exposed in that Report. At the time when it was presented, it commanded great attention, and a direct remedy for such evils threaten ing property and the peace of the country, was generally demanded. That Government, upon con sidering the Report, did not hesitate to endeavour to apply a remedy. They brought forward, on their responsibility as a Government, a mea sure founded on that Report. After ample discussion, much 'debate, and full consideration, the measure, with seine modifications, was passed into a law. That law was now upon our statute-book; that was .the law which, at the pre sent time, regulated the relief of the poorin England. and Wales. With the exception of one portion of the statute, the enactments were of a permanent character. It was thought expedient at the time when that statute passed into a law to limit the duration of the Commission to the period of five years, and the end of the next session, after the expiration of five years. Two years ago, a Bill was introduced by the then Government for the prolongation of the term, which passed into a law. Last year a similar course was purued, and the Commission was prolonged until the 31st of July in the present year, when its powers a ould expire. The first question, therefore, to which it was his duty to direct the attention of the House was, the question whether it would be expedient to prolong the duration of the Corn mission, and if it were expedient, for what length of time. Now it was, upon mature reflection, the intention of her Majesty's servants to propose to the House that the Commission should be renewed for a period of five years, and also until the expiration of next Session of Parliament, after the expiration of the five years.—(Cheers from both sides of the House.) That was the time for which it was originally appointed, and no circumstr.nces which had since intervened, had shaken his belief in the slightest degree that the existence and the full authority of that Commission was as, requisite at the present time, as when the original measure first became law.—( Hear, hear," and ironical cheers from Mr. Wakley.) As the Hon. Member for Finsbury cheered, perhaps he would allow him very shortly to state the reasons why he entertained that opinion. It had been said that the professed object and intention of the appointment of the Commission was to secure uniformity in the mode of administering the law. He must be permitted to say that that was an entire misrepresentation of the motives fur which the Commis sio a had been formed. If the House would permit him— for he could not so well express his vi ews o f t h e r e asons which led to the original appointment of the Commission, and which in his opinion made its continuance neces sary, he could not so well express those 'reasons as in the words of one who was then his colleague, and who, at the time this measure was introduced, was the first law officer of the Crown, the Lord Chancellor of Eng land—if the House would give him leave he would read his opinion, which was remarkable fhr its perspicuity and accuracy.. He (Sir James Graham) did not know if he held the same opinion now as the Noble Lord, but the reasons then given for the appointment of this Commission he (Sir J. Graham) confessed were good reasons for the re-ap pointment of the Commission now. The Noble Lord then said, " one part of the country recnires one mode of treat meat, and another the application of a different mode. The .agricultural districts require very different treatment to that employed in the manufacturing and commercial neighbourhoods." The circumstances of an agricultural parish being different from another, rendered one course inapplicable to both. Now, if it was necessary to have dif ferent modes applied to various cases, it must be presumed that a discretionary power should be lodged somewhere. That hand which possessed this power, felt its way, and formed its course according to the obstacles which might come. This was his opinion why this discretionary power should be given; which" was ills() given in the grap!lie de!eription of t: • Com mission given in - the speech froui which he had quoted, and it was for _these reasons and others he sl ould state that be beieved it necessary to rear point this Commission. Ile would, with the per mission of the House, state, in a few words, the opinion given •by the Dalte•. of Wellington in the House of Lords. He said he disapproved of the administra tion which did not differ under circumstances. There were twelve hundred parishes in the country, all differing in'their character. It was impossible for Par liament.to- frame any law that could apply to those which were so various in their character, Lni hence it had became al. - 4)ltitely necessary that such an appointment as - a Central Board should be made, with the power to control the whole . parishes. in the land, and to adopt such remedies as would secure the same administration of the power throughout the eountry. He contended that the Commission was appointed, and Was still necessary, for two objects—that it should secure diversity of operation where the cirdumstances were diffe rent, and that it should prevent diversity of operation where the circumstances were not different. Further he would say, that some such body was indispensably necessary, unless they then could show that, for all the various circumstances of this great community', one universal scheme of relief for the poor could be made applicable by the Legislature. The principle of local administration was in conformity with the principle defined by law. One portion of the body was composed of persons chosen by the rate-payers ; the other of Magistrates appointed by the Crown, and controlled by a central authority, emanating from the Crown itself. That was the original scheme and plan of the enactment, and he saw nothing in the subsequent woilting of the mea sure which led him to doubt of the wisdom, policy, and necessity of the principle of that enactment. On the contrary, experience had demonstrated that the mea sure was necessary ; and, believing it to be so, he most strenuously proposed to Parliament the continu ance of the Commission for the time he had mentioned. They would allow him to ask, if they did away with this Commission, what ware their intentions with respect to controlling the. administration of relief ? If they went back to the old 'syStem they would find a local• board. in the whdle history of the Poor-law they would not find .the local administration uncontrolled by authority. Froth the time of Queen Elizabeth, down to the Act by which the great change had been introduced, the local 'Magistracy controlled the , administration of re lief. If they went back to the old system, they must necessarily . change the boards. of guardians: Those were now partly composed of rate-payers and partly of Magistrates, who were, ex officio, members of the Board. If they restored them to their control they, must change the form of the Boards of Guardians, - and they would thus go back step by step until they had returned to the system Which the Act of 1834 had de clared to be intolerable. He had now stated enough to show the grounds "upon which he thought it necessary -to adhere to the Central Commission, He had already stated the opinion of Lord Brougham with regard to the existence of the Commission, and he should now state that Noble Lord's opinion with respect to the charaeter of the persons of whom it ought to be composed. He said, "' However widely I may differ frOm an individual on party subjects, yet if the individual be • a man of firm mind, of extensive -experience as to the working of the Poor-law, if he be a man - whom I can trust for his temper, one of the prime requisites in such a work, that man I shall choose before any of those with whom I agree in politics." That was the rule laid down by Lord Brougham. And what had been the practice of Lord Grey's Go vernment ? Why, they had selected parties to carry out the law from among their po litical opponents.—(Hear.) They had selected Mr. Frankland Lewis, whom they had placed at the head of the Commission, and who was opposed to them in politics. Again what was the course pur sued by the present Government ? Since they had acceded to office, did they make their selections solely from among their own supporters? They did not ; but they had adhered strictly to the rule laid down at the first formation of the Commis sion ; they had exercised their honest judgments with respect to the appointment of those gentlemen whom they thought, upon the whole, to possess most of the requisites that were desirable ; they had exercised the patronage of the Crown, in conformity with those principles which had been laid down by their predecessors. They had already made an appointment which he believed the House would consider unexceptionable.—(Hear s hear, hear.) He had thus endeavoured to show, first, the necesssity of a Commission ; he had next slightly touched on its composition ; and he certainly did think that the -Commission, as at present composed—composed of two gentlemen differ ing in opinion—was so formed as to command the confidence of the House, and the approbation of the country. No difficulty, thsrefore, he hoped would arise respecting the. composition of the Commission. He should next pass on from the Commission itself to the questionaf the Assistant-Commissioners. On the first introduction of the measure, from the novelty of its arrangements, it was thought necessary that nine Com missionera.should be appointed ; but, although nine was the number originally intended, it was found indis pensably necessary to add considerably to that number. He believed the number had, amounted to somewhere near thirteen or fourteen, but that number had after wards been reduced, and at the present moment there were only ten Assistant-Commissioners employed. It was his intention in the Bill which he asked leave to introduce to adhere to the original limit, and to fix nine as the number of Assistant-Commissioners for England and Wales ; his view of the matter being that, with a considerably enlarged experience of the Board of Guar dians, the services of the Commissioners were not SO ne cessary ; andahat their visits might be less frequent, as suming rather the character of visits for special "purposes than of visits in order to direct the general proceedings. He would not on the present occasion dwell further upon the subjent.of the Commissioners or ;assistant-Commis sioners; and he would pass on to the next point, one 'of considerable importance, namely, the power of the Central Commissioners to issue general orders. When the subject was last under discussion, he confessed that he had a strong opinion that the original Act made it necessary that general rules should be passed by the Commons, subject to the veto of the Secretary of State; by which the Crown had the power of reversing those rules. He did think that, by passing special orders and not passing general rules, the s pi r it, if not the letter of the origina enactment had been obeyed. But he was bound to say that, since lie had had access to official formation on the subject, he was of opinion that, until. the unions throughout England were formed, it would be impossible, with advantage, to issue general orders. Since he had succeeded to the office he now filled, it ap peared .to him and the Commissioners that the time had arrived when general orders as to Poor-law administra tion might be issued. It was his intention to lay on the table of the House the Report of the Poor-law Commission for the presentyear, which contained several orders ein brae s ing all the topics on which general orders were necessary. If he obtained permission to introduce the Bill, that measure would contain all the relief that was intended for the destitute. With respect to prohibitory orders, various alterations had from time to time been made, and much error existed as to granting out-door relief. In England and Wales, in the quarter ending March 31, 1842, 1,072,000 persons had received parish relief, and out of that number 513,860 were relieved out of the workhouse, and only 159,000 were relieved in the-work house. This might be attributed to the caution which the Commissioners had shown in selecting the places where the prohibitory order was to be enforced. A painful case had just occurred in the Stourbridge Union, and which from temporary circumstances it was necessary to suspend the order, and doing ..see had produced the best effects, as the temporary distress was removed, and the labourers had now returned to their work. So far from the rule against out of door relief being inflexible, there were to the rule itself seven,exceptions, in which the Board of Guardians had the power of suspending it. The Board of Guardians had power of granting out-of door relief, first, in all cases of Urgent necessity -; se condly, in cases of sickness and accident ; thirdly, for defraying the expenses of the burial of any person related to the person so receiving relief ; fourthly, to a widow within the first six months of her widowhood .; fifthly, to a widow having any legitimate child ; sixthly, to the wife and family of aspenson:Cotifi tied in a:gaol or a limatic asylum ; and seventh, to the wife and family of any person in the service of her MnjestY, as a soldier or a sailor. The Hon. Member for Finsbury had pointed out the conti deuce which he had in the ...local authorities. In those seven-cases the local authorities had power to grant .out door relief, but the powers were not restricted to these seven cases, for even in 'eases not specified, there was an ar.ticle.enabling the Board of Guardians to depart from the regulations of the prohibitory order if, within fifteen clays, they report to the Poor law Commissioner the fact of-their having . so departed from those regulations, and the reason for inducing them to do so. The Poor-law 'Commissioners, had, moreover, in certain of the manu facturing districts, in which they had not deemed it ex pedient to issue the prohibitory order, issued an out-of door relief order, to enable the Board of Guar dians to grant out-of-door relief, provided one half of that relief was given in kind, and that no able-bodied person should receive relief who was in the employment of any other person, and that such person should be set to work by the guardians out of the workhouse, subject to the approval of the Com missioners, and under the superintendence of an officer, and that subject to a condition which he consi dered indispensable— that a person receiving relief should not be in the employment of any other indi vidual. The out-door labour test had been adopted by the Commissioners. He would now leave the question of general rules, ,and would proceed to state that after the best consideration which her Majesty's Government could give to the subject, they had come to the de- - cision that it was expedient. to abolish expressly and in terms, the Gilbert Unions.—(Hear, hear.) In a former discussion he had stated to the ,House his own opinion that the original Act abolished the Gilbert Unions ; he believed that taking the clauses together that object was accomplished. But to _prevent all mis takes upon the subject, he proposed to introduce a clause plainly and expressly abolishing these _unions. On what grounds did he rest this proposal ?. In the first place, he begged to state to the House that out of a community of sixteen million persons there were now under the operation of the Gilbert Unions a number of-persons not. exceeding 155,000, and the inconvenience arising from the scattered locality of these unions had increased in a great degree. But besides this he must state to the House his deliberate conviction that the Gilbert Act, and the Poor-law Amendment Act, stood upon two opposite principles which could not co-exist.- lie knew that some persons said, " Gilbertize all the unions ; abo lish your present law, and make the Gilbert Act univer sal in its operation."-e-(Cheers from Mr. Walley.) It would be for the House to decide .which principle it would adopt, but it might be proved to demonstration that the two principles were diametrically opposed to each other, and were so decidedly at variance, ft t the 'Ruse rro.tf betvc,-;!Pri principle of the G-ilberi, Union ? rile principle of the Gilbert Union was, that oTery able••bodied man seeking reAef should have that relief found for him at his own. h, use, and the guardians were subjecte I to a penalty of 1. if they dil not provide relief. The Right Ho rcurable Baronet then read the clause to this ef fect, and which provided that employment should be given within five miles of the labourer's residence. Now let it bo observed that it must be near the place of residence—the pauper was not to receive distant work, nor was he to change his residence to obtain employ ment five miles off. Instead of the man going to the employment, the employment must come to him. If the employer moved to six miles off; thn - guardians were obliged to see tliftt he provided for the .labourer it suit able residence within the lawful distance of the place of employment ; and there was also a clause by which it was provided that, under certain circumstances, the guardians might agree with the employer, that the parish should pay one-half of the wages and the etaployer , the other- half. There was nothing in the. Act to prevent the guardian and the manufacturer.being the same person ; there was nothing to prevent him, as guardirn, making a bargain on the part of the parish with himself as the employer. The rule under the Act was to give in-door relief to the aged and impotent, and out door relief to the able-bodied poor. The rule of the new law was, to give to the old and impotent, that is to aged persons of sixty years and upwards, relief out of the workhouse, .and to apply the test of the workhouse to the able-bodied.—(Hear, hear.) He would only say further, that it was the intention of the Government to propose the repeal of the Gilbert Act, and to leave it to the House to say which principle was the best. As to. the Local Acts it was not intended to alter the present , law. It had been decided by the Court of Queen's Bench that, the law is that when a governing body is constituted under a Local Act, the Commissioners under the new law cannot interfere with the body except` only as to the mode of administering relief ; in which respect, the Commissioners have the same power, as the law now stands, as they have in any other parish. So competent were they under the present law, that it.wes not the intention of the. Government to interfere with • the choice of the governing body under the Local Acts, • but at the same time to exercise a complete control over the ;node of administering relief: •It was, however, in- ~ tended to limit the power of adding to the governing body under- Local Acts, as : it was liable to great abuses. One of the most important clauses which he intended to introduce into the Bill, was one which had been fully discussed in the,last session of Parliament, and related ;, a e to the important question ,of education.. He had the ad- -1 e;4 vantage in bringing in the Bill in the present session of '.ela" having ascertained what was the opinion of the House upon a l 7 this point in the last Parliament. It was their intention ' to propose a clause for the purpose of limiting the appii ' - 1 Cation of the power of' the .Commission in large districts. ea ; They proposed that there should be a maximum distance e‘l i j of 15 miles from the further point of one union to an- .-, other. For the appointment. of this school a mejority of _-a / t the board would be necessary. This limitation would 1 1 71 comprise the Metropolitan districts, and in the neigh- 11 . 1 , bourhood of Manchester, and four or, rive miles rpunti the principal manufacturing and commercial Itowns in Lug- aa ee land the limitation would also operate. He had been in asf duced to make this limitation far various reasons, first Of all ;0 4 that the limitation would enable the experiment to thrive ' s 'a in the most densely populated places.. in the first the provision for the education of the poor gave great dissatisaction, on account of the children. being removed twenty or thirty miles from their pa rents or natural guardians ; .but narrowing the li mitation would place it in the power of tbe children's relatives, on Sundays or holidays, tovisit their children at the establishments, thus - giving them the pleasure and advantage of more or less superintending them. At the same time, in bidding . this provision, they • ~ intended to act up to the recommendation made in the last session of Parliament, whicie he hoped the House , would consider salutary-7-viz., thot of introducing the mode adopted at the school at la'reewood in schools of this description. These school s wh e n established would, be subject to the. control of the Centrsel . ComMitteee* Education Land they would be inspected by the- COMA' mittee on Education; and the Committee would have OR •., ) ,f power of calling for any information respe s eting there: e"a; they might require. He thought that that %meld be prudent advance in the education of the poor. He J thought that nothing could be more conducive to the ftaa e ' ll e l ture advantage in life of the poor than a • system: o v sound education, conducted under such superintendeneei as he had mentioned. With respect •to the casual • poor, he proposed that the rellef given to them should ea . be charged on the funds of , the union. He had next- to ;iJ): state to the House the provision which was intended to meet objections that had been frequently urged agahls t the existing law. It was applicable especially to union* • a in the north of England, which were of large size. It e' had been felt, and rightly so, as a grievance that whore & family applied for relief, before the case was decided one the head of the family should go before the Boar d of Guardians, and where the Board assembles at the extremity of the Union' the necessity. of 0° attending there on the part of the head of the family' lost to him a day's work. It was proposed, then, tha t . poWer should be given to the Board of Guardians where - any parish union should be distant snore than miles (the blank to be filled up in Committee) from th: place of meeting of the Board of Guardians, to aPPl ae ; • p r p e e ce r ie e ' receive l a ts p oo p ho l i in c ine a t o i o o tn e h e s trh a ea l e ra proposed a t t l i i l l e e oc e c a a x l s is e t e s i o . r .:H m la e i :h . e a e d l t t o a desirable not to encumber the Bill wide with the law of settleMent ; and he was satisfied th''t that law would upon its own merits command the Sn t s a serious consideration of the Legislature. But he ask • not think it would be expedient in the Bill be asa e leave to introduce to raise that important question. aav the same time there was one case of such crying hard ship that although it was connected with the law o f settlement, its urgency had induced her Majestys Ministers to endeavour to apply to it an immediate remedy ; he alluded to the case of those who being re-- sident in a parish or a union without a settlement, but to which they had for years given the benefit of their industry to the advantage of the in' . habitmits ,and the ratepayers of that union• but who still, under the pressure of sickness, were dented any relief except on the condition that, if they receive: a shilling, they and their families should be remove • lie had reason to know that at this very moment, under ! the threat of an immediate removal, in districts where: very great distress prevailed, parties who were out of work, not having any settlement, were debarred from any relief whatever, from the fear that if- they applied for relief the application would lead to their subsequent re' moval and consequent ruin. He did not propose to go the whole length, upon that occasion, of dealing wit h any atte -19:rNen'tenricyriet - such cases of destitution, but he dal propose that in cases of sickness, persons becoming chargeable were to be re lieved where they were resident, and should not be re; ' moved, or should not be liable to removal, until they 1 0° ' been chargeable for forty days upon the Union.--aiieat ) Those were the principal provisions of the Bill he as ked leave to introduce, with one farther addition. He pro posed to make one other material alteration with re spee. to the law of bastardy. On the passing of the Poor-la vr Amendment Act through the other House of Parliament clause-was introduced which gave the power of ape** before the Quarter Sessions, and the Quarter Session' only. That remedy was found very soon to be inoper five, and the further remedy was given of an applicatioae • not fo the Quarter Sessions, but to the Pettit Sessions. But still no sufficient remedy was given against fugitive • parties. It constantly happened that the sons of wealthy yeomen, or independent labourers, allowed their childre n to go into the workhouse, where they were supported by the contributions of honest farmers who had a family of their own to take care of. But as the law now sto od ` there was no remedy in such cases. He thought in moral point of view, and in an equitable point of t'in' s '' he was bound to go to this extent, that where there wor • ii, return of niella bone there should be a power of imp!'" coning the father for three months. This certainly 10_ volved a most important principle, it was a d"" a,; cided change, but upon the best deliberation 13° " could give to the subject, it was the bests mild adopt. There was another circumstance. great importance to which ho wished to adveit, ands"ths t ae was with respect to the election of the Board Guardians. Now, with respect to that, he proposednief e place the owners and occupiers on the same footing!" pr,) equality. He proposed that no person should have mse/4 than four proxies. He declared to the House most sisl,ff', cerely that nothing should have induced him to POP", responsible for a Bill of this description, if, in hie celt i a ;a science and judgment, he was not convinced thatJh e teJa measure would be found to be conducive to the or' of the sick, the aged, and the infirm. He would. aa o snore, he believed it would be equally conducive to thij independence and welfare of the working classes. TPV,' was his sincere and most decided opinion, and he hora e ar d that in the discussion that might take place, the greatite, i r temper and discretion would be shown. The Itig", Hon. Baronet concluded by moving for leave to brim' in the Bill. •a a , comforeee Mr. DUNCOMBE said he did not rise to offer d ic. ' slightest apposition to the measure, but merely toed. . press his sincere regret at the statements he had hel l :, from the Right Hon. Baronet. It was with extreme f o e e gret he had heard that the Right Hon. Baronet in tend to continue for six years—(" Five, five")—for five Yewr,, and a Session of Parliament, which made it almost O a° , a measure that was so offensive and obnoxious to tila public at large. He did not wish to go back to thee° a system, and the control of Magistrates, but he aris' i le te • to have the Board of Guardians properly elected , an ‘ give them a full discretionary power. From the teams. ment having refused inquiry Into the Gilbert Ceorporatio!lie it was supposed it was their mten Lion to suppress them. -fia was sorry to find that such was the intention ; and vvhia regard to that suppression, he should feel it his due): id offer it every opposition, and throw every impedirae° 'li its way that the forms of the }louse woul d allow hine o a, would be a gross breach of faith toward s these Core of tions to abolish them without obtaini n g the consen'i et, two-thirds of the`Buard of Guardians, according to e • of Parliament. Mr. LIDDELL asked the Right Hon. Baronet whe, t i l i ' c c e f the Local Committee, .appointvd by the clanse to he referred, was for general or for limited and sr; . , purposes Sieeeet, rJ. GRAHAM was understood to reply , " .. a Committee would be appointed to hear casesaand e a a th a report of them to the Board of Guardians. the Mr. WAKLEY said lie had often found that e cw ' at was no agreement between the clauses of Bills lerTaiel4 i a into that House, and the kind and merciful tone o .o a - 10 speech that introduced them. The Right Hon. 13}1at,' l a t easo had expressed himself in .a most benevolent t 1 G wards the poor,-and expreseed his conviction t!iaa the measure were carried into effect, benefit to the poorer classes throughout the Itina J ae Ha had aj_ways objected to the principle of the <) e r aso it would Pr fae ee Amendment Act, and no alternative in the details' i (a )ja s: o measure could ever reconcile him to the Fri° ` ta d (Cheers.) The principle of the Bill was t° tha' a from the rate-payers the management ° a cai.f a . own. fyillq end to traeefer that manageta 0,„e• tle• r a - e .•s! ee • •''eelerese-- - I inaleiug ttea a , e a the scupe-guat for all the cruelties practised in a a - 0 au nagemont of the poor throughonp England. It v I Iv as t Onti (ice.