The Sun. — London, England, 1831-08-30 00:00:00

at it striae 1 I. 1.'16 the • • sdations of the Committee ya„._totnph _ I et.•°muse! , s ru" the Irish Miscellaneous Estimates in 1829 ? That ulan gat . other things, had they thrown open the ad rotaston members with the ballot ? They could have 4th his (Mr. O'C onne l l ' s ) money as we ll as th a t o f many '' a ` l.• gentlem en , twenty years ago , if t h e y w o uld condo thend to take it.__(llear, hear.) He had been proposed P r e i n e ,',, a°4 his admission had been seconded by his Hon, l a - ` 13 ' the 'aletnher for Kilkenny ; hut he was black liaa'n.---(Hear, and a laugh.) He thought it was ton that they should come to Parliament for money, when theywould make no effort to obtain it at home. For his Part, he was ready to give them his twenty guineas any i ad e ' i , e4 an experiment to see how they could support the onptt-naution from subscr ' iptioas, if they threw the Society - -(Hear ) Al t A• • the A. LEFROY thought that the Society deserved m u liPort of the House. b e y f r ' RICE said that his Right Hon. Friend the Mem sa4 .4 Kilkenny obj-cted to the grant as being too small, all. th i ,: 11 " 0 . Member for Kerry objected to any grant at m ania 'olv be (Mr. Rice) thought that the middle course Far hi be the best—that is, to agree to the present grant. ts a " I t Part, he should be willing to give a larger support to Societ having for its sole object the advanc a'tacf arts and y manufactures in Ireland. But he did ss ' a tuin k that a Society, conducted as if it were private p,ritlelusive property, had such strong claims. The e- Soe rt ee en4 of making a charge for lectures at the Dublin f ur Y had been tried, and without success. The charge far the m ineralogical course was as low as 71. ilk, that lao e lm , 3t4ll Y 71. 55., that for experimental philosophy, the 44:attractive perhaps of all, was 211. 10s. ; and . the o th t 'bowed either that the lectures were not interesting, fat at there did not exist a sufficient demand in Dublin t-or matters of that kind—at least, that the demand was at: 41 , 4 , 11 as to justify Government in reducing the proposed le as "Y asnm of 1,500/.—especially as the original grant W j l a ad e upon th e assumption that the local contributions be co ns id era b le. 41 1(1 1.. e R . GORDON approved of the reduction made , a clea t w i t essed an earnest hope that his M ijesty's Govern ould carry the principle still further. Qo ' s ( e r ; RICE said, that the reductions which the present toasta - " t ent were engaged in bringing about, were to a litai ti :able ext e nt th ose which the former Government eoii„,, ed, together with some others which the Finance tor C o : 44 'e recommended. Thus, for example, the Char otket,t'-"°°la had been reduced to 5,000/. ; next year it was kat t h' - ' that they would be brought as low as 3,0001. ; In apt Year after the grant abolished altogether. The Wi tt ' '' :) t the Fo un dli ng H os pital, he expected, would like- Ak ylu eeo e, as well as that for the Richmond Lunatic clit te ln • The Marine Society, he could assure the C . sun oesactra' would b e con d ucte d u p on p r inciples of the strictest arlq,'y, and suc h as lie trusted would render the grant h%da " "tY for the future. The Royal Dublin Society to e.,"lredlleed to the extent of 1,500/., so as if possible ros a . 4 4° et the am oun t pa id by Government nearly corn thilr'te with the sum arising from local contributions. tatd e e Nice and the stationery, large reductions would be Fti th ', l 4 nd in the I r i s h Offi c e in London, his Right Hon. oil e au a the Chi ef Secretary for I re l an d was carrying con e reductions into effect. Lear a . H UME was sorry to hear from his Hon. and a g ed Fri en d , t h e Mem b er f or K erry , an y complaint 14,14 rt the re d uct i on made in the grant to t h e R oya l Dub ' to tat tki etY ; it w as a mere c l u b, a nd of the narrowest and I tav e : lei "sive kind—it was a party club, got up anti pre bf a , 44 a pleasant lounge—he would not say for the heads kle a e •" t atige party, but for the great Protestant ascend lbs'coPev,°Pl! in Ireland. The facts were so strong before 4 0a , aainittee, that the then Hon.! Member for Derry, ' , l.4a, t a u e Right Hon. Member for Harwich, was himself ta g k V: admit that there was great difficulty in obtain k4t 7 'ion into that club. There was also an import triLt, which he hoped would not escape the attention for a ' e House; namely, that the public paid nine pounds IfIc t : 11.1 "Y one that arose from the individual subscriptions establish ICE did not approve of any exclusiveness in any A f , - "tnent supp or t e d at the public expence. Ni, ana '" a few words from Sir John Burke, Sir John t he r"tti Mr. W yse , M r . H enry G rat t an , an d Mr. Shea, 441‘'tte of 5,500/. for the Royal Dublin Society was put liiagreed to. A t 4 "t was 3001. for the Royal Irish Academy.- 0111001' to. . for the Board of Charitable Donations and Bequests. ' I 4Pe r , r ;, °' CONNELL said, that as the public paid the `" of the Board, it ought not to be confined or apa k r - a in its operation. I CE, though agreeing with the Learned Member to tl u t e-- Ys th at t h e B oar d oug ht no t to be close, yet he , 75 0/1„ "1 "ot observe that the sum paid amounted only to s aece ed '„,, t ue present estimates, and the Commissioners had t t L e- `" in recovering for charitable purposes a sum not 4, 5 (1 11 230 ,000 i. 4 Wa r i, h ' - '' () ULBURN defended the. Board, and pronounced 114 — „e,ulogiuni upon their exertions. Lail a„" CONNELL said that the late Irish Chancellor, I f a - i 'anners, had made a decision which had the effect c lOs l , s t ' 4 ring that Catholic were as valid as Protestant . be lt th at ' lie then wished to see some Catholic Clergymen Board, though he did not desire • that -they should kyr' II salaries. Is tioa„-• tHialE wished to know . if addition A al .t Ci p tn a ' r. 'isi a -I could be appointed without a new of Alniant a i r ' RICE was understood to reply that they could not. to la t. * O'CONNELL said that the addition of fifteen lines tat" Administration of Justice in Ireland Bill would ,Wer all the purposes required. kt.it.le. RICE thought that the further consideration of the ma tter ought to be postponed.—Vote agreed to. t e ,4 1 1 next was 1,5001, for the Belfast Academical Insti qua. f k% i‘ t t f; RUTHVEN stated that the inhabitants of Bel aea(r largely contributed to the maintenance of the ih "nY ; and it was worthy of observation, that those tkr :i(istliti i4p,ott.hilo,e gznsesihad in crease d in consequence of the reduc .. itr ant effected by his Hou. Friend tbe Member' HUME said that the grant to the Belfast Academic te tit i e ttlti°° Was one of the few grants which met with the aftapprobation of the Committee. !N s ; O 'CONNELL and Mr. WYSE both bore testimony the a -re sPectability and usefulness of the establishment, for e of w h ich this grant was intended. l ia t% ,-, R ICE then mov e d, " That a sum not exceeding 4 1‘a - ti 'l• be granted to defray t h e expellees of the Board 1144 in Ireland." they h th that there was an apparent saving of 3,400/., but 4 'lia L W been obliged to pay out of that a sum of 1,1091., o at si I to 'e real saving was only the difference between n tl i i x e P ao sale and the other. In the works at the Pho3 4 • oa. „ ao nsiderable saving had been effected by his Right krariend the Chief Secretary. otiai ts ltisi'ary hoped that the office of Lord Lieutenant Ai r dispensA with. ' ' CONNELL said, that such a change as that atvcertainly bring about a repeal of the Union, ke t el :al Hon. Members rose ; but . I) 4 ICE hoped they would not go into the question 4 % ta -b icn. He could assure the Committee that it ' t t aa ) , e intenti on o f hi s M a j e sty's Government to sweep tit}, asuch as possible of the unnecessary parts of every „est aalishrn en t, i lin t "'AIE was persuaded that the great mass of the sa a " n t Portion of the people of Ireland desired to put 11/ r• to the ofllce of Lord Lieutenant. I ,:tt f u C.llO observed tha; they were flip upon a cial wo r i, t def ray i ng the expenses d the 13oard of public l'a L s - Vote ag ree d t o . I !to(' noXt vote w as 30,419/. fur the salaries of the Chief 110611 "et' Secretaries ' and for the expenses of their offices &c. I ' 4 oo / ')4 e l SII3THORPE recommended a reduction of M the sa l ary o f t h e Chi e f S ecre t a ry. I ;441,•a . : SP RING RICE said, that this was one of the % ohnaitted to the revision of the Committee up ttlhet a' u t r Td the pom F _lttee thought that_ this t salasva n s . .e than adequate to the ctutsea and 11!, expenses , ' fart . f : 4 ." , - , LBURN said the salary was not more than ' 5 ,%; ' r , 1 - " lti t t and he was afraid the .reductious made by the Is•Nr, b e nt in Ireland were carried too far. ' ,", UME knew what might be expected from the t ►'°, °)y i'` ° l'a Gentleman, but he was persuaded the The Government would promote the public see -e was persuaded Government deserved the highest tet e the reductions it had made. „ithiI;`I;CONNELL was of the same opinion as the lion. 4 11 i\l'd and :ass sure that the superannu- It ' °I " ' e2 " ' • to e ta '.'orne of the bfficeis would be of great service 4ntry. tfa - gola 1 0Y took the opportunity to eulogise Mr. Iseisaf .) t he late Tander-SearetarY in 4elimer. A moor? . ot, ; PUhlic s ervan t never served any Government. was the opinion of S r Anthony Hart. to; Wh o - •°NNELL was glad to hear this, as it showed 40 0 ., ',ad been the adviser of Sir A. Hart, in relation % 1 1 4 ' n g the Magistrates in Ireland. He considered teia le g *as a complete partiaan, and he was glad he al -ow, tt 4 . a. Q, l iron, office. `.4ILBURN said the Hon. Member himself was 1 , 11 4 at tattislied partizan, and Mr. Gregory, though a par it tv et Buff dpolitical opinions to influence his It lia t ' i nducC ert • P I:).e() NIVELL said that the Government of the of t h ` his ( 01 lier, av it S . , But tt ry had" ' an d tb€ eocg.)- - co rldoe Nor ai,l amoto' yea r hol:c another, on wir f the fe !nee ue .iend ( t/ ` e r h a sty - eh °' ,hur ianger;.,/ Oa tn ~t staterfle,' case it ser v ie° be pa r "; .ector .t of Pr a 60°6 Protes t►°l the 11 09 1 o f y, that ia the Andr e the 1• 1 1:1 lie r t. Met e there navy egal. nd W I • " s ' yew) b 0 Di e sente, Catli4v .cially )een agr4 g song petition tl, d that ,f ., t, rish of eral state°!, of l'; 1 , /4 0 asion or no' was of I°°,l) insp~ t ,t , Or Vetl 2001. cool, lied, 15 0 i just refoH, the b°°' cotrt"vl please' 01 e Abbe denibello, he Cor, , 13 'di of ri,l at it in the rrunitteetr, y .or 00 e l retn n ,0 1 i n goil* 1 1 °' tb (lt ) 1 :one, p pose. 7 e tab le irs in / e' .e, ial ezPeli‘sll isters o' l ' ‘ ; I readingv e day, 45 in ougb t id supP' f i it were , ,0 M a ny P i cid ed ° i f e r rtby irs as ie nior those cv the sip itill to , the a a i obserVats so 'et, the Right Hon. Gentleman was not impartial. Mr. Gregory was impartial, like the Marquis of Limerick, who said that he was perfectly impartial, for he had quartered as many soldiers as possible on the Catholics, and as few as possible on the Protestants. The Government of the Right Hon. Gentleman had employed large sums of money to pay as venal a Press as ever existed. He admitted he was a par- tizan ; he had been made one by his situation ; but he was not therefore fit for a public situation. He knew that, and wanted no public office, and any Government which ap pointed him to one would do wrong. Mr. SPRING RICE deprecated anything like a dis cussion on personal character. The question before the Committee was a vote for a sum for public service. Mr. GOULBURN thought he was justified in defending his personal friend. Lord ALTHORP said his Hon. Friend (Mr. Spring Rice) had not wished to censure the Right Hon. Gentle man. He had had an opportunity of defending his friend, and it would be better that the discussion should now drop. After few words from Sir H. Hardings, Colonel Co nolly, Sir J. Newport, Sir George Murray, and Mr. Lain. bert, Mr, SPRING RICE said the time was come, when the House was pledged to go into the motion of the Hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr. Sadler.) After a few words from Mr. GouLuunw, the vote was agreed to. The resolutions were ordered to be reported, and tho House resumed. The Chairman reported progress, and was ordered to sit again on Monday next. THE POOR OF IRELAND. Mr. SADLER, in bringing under the consideration of the House the state of Ireland, and in attempting to per;- suade the Members of the Legislature to adopt some measures for the prevention and the cure of those evils with which its population had for centuries been afflicted, com menced by observing, that although he m :de the attempt often before, he could not avoid feeling that on the present occasion he made it under more favourable auspices, and with well-grounded prospects of ultimate success. One circumstance connected with the agitation of the subject was particularly cheering. It was free from everything connected with party. They were at liberty to discuss it without exciting any of their passions or prejudices, which unhappily were mixed up with other questions ; and they advanced to an examination of the arguments on, as it were, a friendly and neutral ground. One point, he might premise, was so plain, that it required no effort of language to enforce it. That was, that the poor had a right to re.. lief for their necessities out of the surplus property of the rich. This right was as inalienable and as clearly esta blished as the right to the possession of property it-elf. It was supported by the authorities of the greatest men of the country who had written on the subject; but with out fatiguing the House by a repetition of their names and opinions, he would sum up all by reminding them that it was the father of English philosophy, the great Locke himself, who, in discussing the rights of pro_ 4erty, observed, that it was founded on the nature of things, and that God had not intended to leave one man at the mercy of another, but, on the con- trary, gave him a pressing right to a share of the surplus of his wealthier neighbour. The laws which protected property were most severe ; most severely, too, were they administered ; and he would ask how they could reconcile it to themselves to place the first law of pro perty and the first law of nature in irreconcileable hos tility? In every country on the face of the earth, and at all periods since the commencement of civilization, pro perty was guarded by laws, but the poor were at the same time provided for and protected. In Greece, in Imperial Rome, in Carthage, in China, in every country where ci vilization had made the slightest progress, laws were to be found for the protection of property, but at the same time relief was administered for the effectual support of the , poor; and the great moralist of this country, and he might add, of the world, had expressly declared that he considered a just provision for the poor as the true test of civilization. Why then was Ireland to he an exception to these rules ? Why was she to be excluded from the ordinary rules of humanity and shut out of the pale of civilization? Perhaps he might be told that the distress of the poor there was not deep enough. Per haps he would be told that to afford them relief was im practicable. The extent of the distress be thought he could place beyond question. He could not descend to particulars, but be believed he could in a few short state ments prove enough to excite the sympathy of every friend of humanity. All writers who had touched on the state of Ireland, agreed in their picture of the poverty and distress of its peasantry. Spencer, Dobbs, Sir W. Petty, Swift—all were agreed in describing the poverty and misery of the Irish to be unparalleled in Europe. If there were any who had doubts on the subject, he would ask them to look at the effect produced on the situation of the people by the failure of a single crop. A misfortune of that kind reduced the great mass of the people to the lowest state of distress—famine and death stalked over the land— hundreds of thousands of human beings perished, for it was on them, not on the animals, the infliction fell. The animals were preserved because they belonged to the rich who could provide for them, but the people were left to perish. To what then was this state of things to- be attri buted? There might still be found those who would deny it in despite of all the dictates of common sense or the lessons of experience, but lie would contend that much of it proceeded from the evil of absenteeship—frorn the resi dence in other countries of those who drew all their wealth and their enjoyments out of the labours of those to whose comfort and sustenance they contribute nothing in return. As long as the great landlord lived in the country he must be something less than man if he saw so much distress around bins and contributed nothing to its alleviation; but the evil was this, that being removed from the scene of horror, and running no risk of having his eyes wounded or his feelings affected by the unhappy aspect of his ten antry, he easily reconciled himself to the continuance of a system which brought him a large rental from his estate, and listened with callous indifference to the details of affliction which reached him, through his agents, while the middlemen were permitted to drain the unfortunate peasantry of the whole produce of their toil, and they were forced to emigrate in crowds to find a market for their labour in this country. It was the custom to say that the distress of Ireland proceeded from excess of population. He de nied that. The distress was the same one hundred and fifty years ago, when the population was little inure than a million. Any one who took the trouble to consult the works of Dobbs or 13olton would find it so, while the owners of the soil were revelling in luxury in every ca pital in Europe. It was impossible to overlook one im portant fact—that the distress was of:perpetual recurrence in Ireland, and that disease followed always in its train. A century ago no less than 40,000 human beings were carried off by the pestilence in a few months ; so that it might be said every cottage in the country had at least one corpse among its inmates. Again, without dwelling on other periods, in 1817 the medical historians informed them that 1,500,000 persons were affected by the epide mic which at that time accompanied the distress in Ireland and which, it is well known, was aggravated in all its symptoms by insufficiency of food, and the despair which their misery produced ; for that despair rendered them more open to infection, and gave the disorder a more fatal character, there could not be a question. it was the duty of that House to adopt some miassures to stay Use course of the destroying angel, to step between the Hying and the dead, and to take some more creditable and humane plan of relief than any which was to be found in the passing of a begging box annually through this country.--(Hear.) Spch means of relief were inadequate t 2 the er - ul ; and a mockery of the situation of the people.—( hear, hear; hear. ) That in Ireland, a country fertile and healthy beyond compare, the people perished peritidically from tire state of misery and distress in which they were compelled to exist, could be provpd hriond the power of refutc.tiop,, by the examination of a few tables of figures, With which every Member of the House was familiar, and the accuracy of which ecoirl not be doubted. In the returns of the popu lation of 1821, there were two classes. One containing those under forty years of age, and the other tlor ze allove it. Now in England he found that there were 8 ,600,000 persOris under ' the age of forty years, and 2,469,667 of forty years and upwards. In . Ireland 'there Were 5,593,885 persons under forty years of age. £3ut bow the many did the th e same class in England bad be en pre . proportion of house stippor , ab' o y e that age ? served there would have bet:n.1,111,014, but on the con trary, there were only 1,199,815, so that half a million had been cleared off by the effects of famine and disease. To illustrate this further, he would take Wales, which in many points much resemble d Ireland, and particularly the province of Connaught:, tine roost rout the thinnest peopled portion of the kingdom. In laVadlestbotlsiee offorty popula tion under forty years Were 503,770, n years and upwards were 169,449: Now in Connaught .110 bear the due tale h oopla un , Lp• forty we . ..e' Ptopiortion to - Wales, the pOpulation of 'the other class should have been 296,050 ; but what was the number found to be ?—why 181,644. (Hear, hear, hear.) So that in fact the return gave a difference of 126,0 0 0 in every million, in favonr of the longevity of the people of England. He had beard too, from good authority, that the mortality, on a late occasion, carried off six in every ten in the district where it raged. The House might con ceive the state of suffering and distress which such a state ment implied, and that too in a country which be was pre pared to prove to be as healthy and as fertile as England, if its population were not subjected to the inflictions which arose from inaproper or insufficient means of subsistence. A General Officer; of some character, who had been much employed in Ireland, had observed, in speaking of the mortality among the people, that it was good to get rid of them in any way; and if this was, as he (Mr. Sadler) understood it to be, a general opinion --(No, no, from the Ministerial benches)—then he would not say more on the subject. He was glad to hear such a disclaimer, for it vindicated all the arguments he had applied to the ques tion; for if something was not done to put a stop to these periodical calamities, it would be better for their governors to have recourse to the Spartan system of reducing the number of the helots ; for, as Dr. Woodward observed, with some truth, it would be better to adopt the [tidier' custom of knocking out the brains of the people with clubs, than suffer them to perish under the lingering miseries of famine and disease.—(Hear, hear.) One terrible consequence of the insufficiency of food in Ire land was the spread of that painful disease—lunacy— which, all who applied themselves to a calm consi deration of the question, now admitted to be most alarmingly on the increase. It was true that large sums were devoted to the erection and support of hospitals for the reception of those afflicted by it ; but how much better—bow much more politic and humane would it be to take means to prevent than to cure that melancholy in fliction. The consequence of the system pursued towards Ireland was that they must become either stupid or despe rate ; stupid, it was found, they could not be made, for ail classes of the people of that country were remarkable for their shrewdness and ability ; but desperate they would speedily become, unless the Legislature interposed its power to save them from the miseries they endured, through the negligence or indifference of their natural pro tectors. Again be would ask, why was Ireland plunged into so dreadful a distress as that which now oppressed it? Was there anything physical in the state of that country that caused it ? He thought not; and he was convinced, , in fair argument, that he could show that he was justified in that denial. One re ison that was given for this dis tress was the excess of population ; hut lie could not admit that as a reason, when he fiaind that the same dis tress had existed when the population of the country was actually not sufficient to possess the land : there had been a time when this was so much the case, that exertions were made to tender the population more numerous, and Sir William Petty actually recommended colonization for that purpose. It was also a noto rious fact, that a hundred years ago, when the popu lation did not exceed one or . two millions, the same starvation as now was experienced, and collections were made throughout the empire for the relief of the suffer ing poor. Others laid the cause of the pervading distress of Ireland at the door of the minute divisions of the land in that country ; but on actual calculation—one that de pended on figureealone—it could be shown that, throughout the country, there were thirty or forty acres to every agri cultural family ; besides which, before this was tagged as a reason, it would lie well for its supporters to look to. the example of Flanders, where the population was much mole numerous in proportion, the land much more minutely divided, and yet where poverty and distress were scarcely known among the agricultural population. Others con tended that the capital of the country was not sufficient to find employment for the poor. With respect to this, he was aware, that while absenteeism was allowed, it could not he expected that capital would accumulate—(Hear)-- but still he would say, that a lack of capital was not the real hindrance of the improvement of the people. The great moral solution, however, of the distressed condition of Ireland was, th it the population increased too much in proportion to the capital. Now, he would not deny that there was too little capital for the poor, but be did not think that that was the case in general ; and if the House would look back to former times, it would be seen how much Ireland had improved in this respect. At the end of the seventeenth century the capital of Ireland was estimated at one million sterling; it was now esti timated at from fifteen to twenty millions. He would, however, consent to tuke it at ten millions, though, perhaps it was hardly just to his argument to do so. England, at the time of which he had been speaking, was estimated at fourteen millions—ten from land, and four from other resources- The capital from land was now estimated at thirty-five millions. Thus the increase in England had only been at the rate of three and a half per cent., while that of Ireland had been at the rate of ten per cent. ; but, at all events, if the capital of Ireland was not sufficient for its population, it only afforded a fresh proof of the neces sity that there was to bring the system back to that of sound policy and enlarged benevolence.—(Hear, hear.) The argument of others was, that the condition of Ireland could not be remedied, on account of the indolence and improvidence of the people ; but he denied the fact totally. The truth was, that the circumstance of the involuntary indolence of the people had been noticeable from the earliest period of history. Both Davis and Petty spoke of this, but attributed it to the abstraction of the wealth of the country.—(Hear, hear.) And how, lie should like to ask, could any one say that the Irish were an idle people, when they were found travelling throughout England in search of a few weeks' employment ?—(Hear, hear.) Were they not even willing to undertake that labour from which others turned with squeamishness ? Were they not to be found in the depths of the mines—at the bottom of sewers ? Did they not bear more hardships than slaves, and live more sparingly than ascetics ? And when they took their slender earnings home, well would it be if they were made offerings on their domestic altars, in stead of which they were sacrificed to the demands of an absent landlord.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He need not disguise his opinion as to what remedy was necessary for Ireland. What that country wanted was a well-digested system, which should support indigence, encourage labour, and bring forth the energies of the country. There was, however, one difficulty which he believed every body con.. tetnplated—even those who were well disposed towards the introduction of Poor Laws into Ireland. It was imagined that the people were so degraded, that their poverty was so extensive, and that their situation was so hopeless, that, in point of fact, an attempt of this sort would only involve the country in worse ruin than that which already threat ened. He knew that it would be difficult to meet such an objection as this ; and he therefore trusted that the House would permit hint to call to its recollection the condition in which England was in the time of Queen Elizabeth, when the great Statesmen of that time resolved on giving poor laws to this country ; and he thought, that when the House heard this statement, it would arrive at the con elusion that the state of things then in England was far worse than the state of Ireland was now. When the bounty that flowed from monastic institutions ceased by the suppression of the monasteries themselves in the time of Henry VIII., distress throughout the country became ex treme. Sir Thomas More, in alinsiao to thie, said, Therefore ie it that one coyetoua and insatiable cormo rant, and very plague of his native country, may compass about and enclose many thousand acres of ground within one pale or hedge ; the busbandmen be thrust out of their own, or else either by covin and fraud. or by vieleas op. pression, they be put betide it ; os Py Wrongs and injuries they be so wearied,'that they be compelled to sell all. By one means, therefore, or by other, either by hook or by crook, they must needs depart away—poor, silly, wretched souls! Men, women, husbands, wives, Wiser : less children, widows, weecei mothers with their young balite, and the whole household, small in substance and touch in number, as husbandry requireth the many bands. Away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accustomed islo, es, eahoiidds:ll l l, i eff o , u al s av e lb s :i;c fi hy n iei d si i v n t)e g ly n g o ; i ts p itil l :tl i c (l e veg : t rest h,ti tii( i ) ;; II a i i t l their might y thrust our, they be constrained to sr-11 it as a thing of nought. And when they have wandered abroad till that be spent, what can • they then do but to steal ; and then justly, paedie, he hanged, or else go about e-beeg',ng f And ' e ct then, also, they be east into Priadn as vagabonds, because they go about and work not; Whom no men will set at work, 7 though they never so willingly prefer themselves thereto." Strype and Hollinshed also bore testieeeeei to the Seine effect. Under these 9;reetossanees, What did Lord Bur , leigh dictate, and' What did Lord Bacon achieve? They would, perhaps, have been justified, under such circuee stances, in saying that they could malee no provision for the pony; hot even these circometancee doubt not Make • them slacken their herecijolere't endeavours, for lifter; try;rig volunt4ry'esSista'nce and othey reesraeuree, they proceeded to pass that esslebeated law which, with all its imperfec t tionse was one of the most exalted exhibitions of human benevolence that had ever been displayed in any country or by any nation.--([Tear, hear.) But it 'fag aaid, that even if Poor Laws for Ireheteel vet:: eranted,'lt would be a digice,lt tesii to Mid eniployment for the poor. This part (tithe subject, however, appeared to him to be the easiest - ofoir wereed off ered e s d p fi o t i h a ee l . The hills, the rivers, the reeiees ef retry country, appeared to offer ceapleftoeut on the grandest scale --Ow oppcveck to missed opportunities for lab Our, waiting be undertaken ; but, above all, the wastes of Ireland to t in he th r o o f lifi a c ,.e fi s e o ld ; co a r ste ein la p n lo d re m trillions st P poorewl) ire would. be;linelr'elanitill,eroef which it was eeleeleted, on the 'most autlientie'infOrma• tion, that 2,500,000 acres were among the most fertile sell Let immediatelythe ln be supplied.cultivated, ut time , n p • e a r n h t a s p o s , f it might be asked, were there any markets at which such produce could be disposed of? He thought that if lion. Gentlemen would refer to the - • • quantities of various commo dities that had been exported from Ireland in the course of the last.year, they would soon see what capabilities in that respect offered themselves; and it was not difficult to un del 'stand bow those resources might be improved as soon as Ire land had the power of acting on a more enlarged system of policy. Another point worthy of observation was, that in proportion as this country received fresh supplies from Ire land, in like proportion would increase tl e demand fur oat • produce, by which means the looms of England would fin d incitement to fresh activity.—(Cheers.) But it was I that there was no machinery in Ireland to carry so grt •at a plan into execution. He had already shown that •re was far more power in Ireland than there had been itx England,at the time of the introduction of the poor laws intf r this country . ; and when it was found that there was mad ahinery enough ready fOr every act of oppression and in just ice, to say that there was not enough for the purposes of I renevolence, was an insult—not upon Ireland--but upon but nan nature.—(Hear.) But the grand machinery th..t war in motion for the purpose of effecting this object was the extension of education in every direction ; formerly the peo pie of Ireland were in a lamentable state of ignorance and deg radation ; but now it was calculated that nine out of evi_!ry thirteen were in a course of education; indeed lie 'night say generally, that the very attempt to establish this plo n would of itself be the means of establishing the machi ner y.—(Hear.) He meant to have combatted at length one of •the most obvious objections to his intended proposition— viz, , that individual charity would supply the wants of the poor—but he would only make one or two remalks upa n the point; and the first was, that the experience of centuries showed that the Irish population should no lorn ;et. lie left to the mercy of individuals, many of whom, he fairly admitted, were not capable of contributing largely to. She relief of the poor. The demands upon distant pro prie tors of the soil might be said to have produced nothing. and the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, when adverting so ably to the condition of the peasantry of G Away, had allowed the vanity of any appeal to the richer and more influential orders. In the diocese of Limerick no more than 901. hail been obtained by application to most of the rsssidents of the greatest wealth and consequence. He b tlieved that the introduction of poor laws into Ireland would be an economical plan ; first, because the effect would undoubtedly be to increase the value of property ; and, secondly, because the large sums now raised nominally for the employment of the poor, but in fact spent upon jobs to enrich those who were already too rich, would he entirely saved. Here, too, he might notice the interests of the labourers of England, for he totally disbelieved those who argued that the result would be that not one Irish labourer less would visit this country. The natives of Ire land would be loth to quit their native soil and incur the perils of a sea voyage if they could get anything like adequate employment at home. The poor Irish, who were driven to 'England by stress of poverty, were not the most culpable absentees, although so much ignominy was sometimes heaped upon them. However, he rai d not rest his proposi tion upon selfish considerations only ; he appealed to the House to adopt it on the grounds of justice to Ireland. The subject of a provision for the poor of Ireland at an early date had occupied the attention of the Legislature— just after the revolution it was under discussion, and it was again recommended to consideration early in the suc , ceeding century, until, on Nov. 20th, 1771, the Irish House of Commons unanimoustly adopted a resolution, " That it is the duty of Parliament to snake such regula tions as may relieve the real poor, and suppress the nui • sauce of begging." It would be unpardonable to omit the recent efforts upon this subject by the Hon. Member for Wicklow (Mr. Grattan), who had done himself so much honour by his efforts on behalf of his impoverished countrymen.—( Hear.) He (Mr. Sadler) was satisfied that no time ought to be lost in adopting some measure upon the subject. The natives of Ireland were most sus ceptible of kindness, and if the concession were now made, it would be accepted as a boon and an act of grace. If it were postponed, it might be claimed and extorted as a r i g ht. They would now he grateful for what they might hereafter demand. Should the House by its vote affirm the necessity of making a provision for the poor of Ireland, he should be prepared, either before a Committee or other wise, to submit the features of a plan to accomplish the object. He earnestly hoped that the House would attend to the rights of the poor, and learn " to do justice and to love mercy."—(General cheers.) He concluded by read ing the following resolution :—" That it is the opinion of this House that it is expedient and necessary to institute a legal provision for the poor of Ireland." Mr. STRICKLAND complained that the Hon. Mem ber had dwelt too much upon the general question, and had not with sufficient minuteness pointed out the mode in which he proposed to carry his plan into execution ; he was thus reminded of an observation, he believed, of Lord Holland, that it was easy to describe the distresses of the poor, but very difficult to suggest a remedy for them. He bad listened with the greatest attention, but in vain, to learn what was the plan of the Hos. Gentleman—in what respects he meant the poor laws of Ireland to differ from those of England—and by what safeguards he would avoid the evils experienced in this country. The late Mr. Whit bread had truly said that it was a physical impossibility to provide for the whole labouring population, and it was, therefore, necessary to confine relief to the sick, lame, and impotent. He admitted that to introduce a regulated system of poor laws into Ireland would be a great good, but without proper regulations they would only multiply existing evils. The endeavour ought to be raise the ideas of the poor, and in order to avoid the necessity of parish aid, to teach them to respect themselves. Colonel TORRENS concurred in the principles so ably stated by the Hon. Member for Yorkshire. He (Colonel Torrens) was decidedly favourable to the introduction of a modified system of poor laws into Ireland—a system by which the majority of rate-payers is each parish should voluntarily assess themselves for the relief of the impotent poor, permanently incapacitated from earning their own subsistence.—(Hear.,) But with respect to the other sys tetn advocated by the Hon. Member who introduced the m otion, he must venture to express his dissent. H e h a d given his best attention to the plan of extending to able bodied l a b ourers, w h en wages were deficient, the right to compulsory re li e f ; he had endeavoured to view thia im portant quest i on i n a ll its bearings, and to trace it through out all its c o nseq uerwes ; and the result of his deliberation was an increasing conviction of the danger of rushing upon a path whose termination they could not see, and from whose windings and labyrinths ther.s would be no retr?: - .3, He was surprised at the hasty and inconsidnraW rnanner in which opinions upon important snlnecta were taken up and promulgated. question of compulsory relief involved all trlte mast important questions of political economy, of social Government. The causes which detei'mincd the ci wages o f l a b our , the profits of capital, th e zot anki value of la n d— a ll t h ese were more, or less involved i n th e w id e and mo men t o us tiesticn establishin g a poor rate i n Ireland.,EHear.7 Yet, strange as it might appear, the lion. Member advocated this measure without reference to n. the p r i nc i p l es o f that science of whi c h it f orme tlse ntost important portion. Nay, it was a fact,--,a fact which the next generation would cca.rne.y credit—.that lion. Mem bers w ou ld I ,fours denouncing and di sc l a i m i ng t h e prin ciges o' 'political economy in the same breath with which they propos e d m easures for improving the condKer.oZ tl4 people. Th e l a bouring classes comrocyd the great bulk of every communityt a7d, r, country} must be cons id ere d miserable 07 I„ l appy in 'proportion as these classes were well or ill supplied with the necessaries, comforts, and 4.j0y . - inents of life. The study of political. es.onproy tec4llo.a us the way in which labour ;rag oht4p, an adequate re : ward : and if it ;lid not teach its this, it might, l"''.eed, Itorioyio4euiturai parishes psuprepcousleastiovfe practicalcuriosit curiosity, , u t l u i t t y„ could it claims the peculiar attention of the benevolent amid good, and thT.-eLy points out the means by which ma inly because it explains the which depress and ate the distresi and improve the condition of ' s se c r a v i l i t y o geroantdt: to merelyy : vl i ee e vil'a g t r ae e l a w i n ln te a is i g :iilY of mankind. Political ecepomy is not, as has been erroneously stated, the appvopriate or exclusive science of the . Statesman the Legislator ;it is empha tically of the people. The Hon. Member had ' eU,cultrbered and overlaid this question with a modtitude of H". Member that our details. He (Colonel T.) would ventnie to suggest to the kzowlecip of statistics was la mentably itniie s ts Nye ‘haVe no very ao.cur;,te or cer tainand'aa to the n'swohiirs of the employed, partly ern -1)a p,tol aitogether unemployed labourers in the several of England. Now, if thus; facts, ;hid) are passing almost before our e . ,x - es, have not yet been sufficiently examired e,n;i ascertained, how uncer tain, how Lutv utterly unworthy of credence must be t,1.; multitudinous statistical details which the Hon. Si en ,her has gathered from distant co , :ntilia and remote') a ges? But even if the Hen, liember had established his alleged facts by tneT.cient 'eViderice, still lie would have pe.:lo-,Jiied only half his task - . The faculty whi.nh accu rately observes and records particular ;:latQomena is widely different from that which c!.i:Cinguishes between accidental coincidetic!.! necessary connection. Facts, however a ;:,;:orately ascertained, may be thrown toE-,:ther so as to present a chaos of heterogeneous ana unconnected eleMent; confounding the imagivaion, rather than enlightening the un derstanding. Facts accurately ascertained Lein the o nly foundation Upon which sound principles can be erected. But in enabling us t.o judge of the future by the past, facts are of little value until they have been arranged and generalised, -and subjected to that inductive prose-s which extends individual experience throughout the infi nitude of things, and imparts to human knowledge the cha racter of science. For these considerations he (Colonel T.) did not estimate very highly the Hon. Member's multifa rious statistical detail., hoivever laboriously acquired 'or ~:~~ oquently displayed. Without entering a labyrinth t, f which there appeared to be no clew, be would apply him : self directly to the question before the House. He (Colon,' , T.) objected to instituting a legal and permanent provisit it for the destitute and suffering poor of Ireland, from ti, conviction that this species of proeism, instead of reliev ing and removing, would aggravate and perpetuate the misery of that country. It was acknowledged that the population of Ireland had rapidly increased, and that it was still rapidly increasing; and it could not be denied, that as long as the supply of subsistence was increased by compulsory assessments upon property, the progress of fyi pulation in Ireland would be accelerated. At no distant period the whole rental of the country would be inadequate to the maintenance of those for whose labour there was no demand. Two shillings in the pound, or ten per cent. upon rent and profit, to be levied by compulsory assessment, and distributed to those who could not obtain adequate wages—the relief which this would afford would be immediate, but, unfortunately, it would be of short duration. As giving a tenth of the incomes de rived from rent and profit in aid of the incomes der!ved from wages could have no conceivable tendency to diminish the number of births, or increase the number of deaths, the people would c-ntinue to breed up to the extreme limits of the most scanty subsistence ; and want and mi sery would inevitably return. If, on witnessing this re newal of distress, the compulsory assessments were raised p frx e s l s o , t ‘ o 2 ,,,u 0 1 d p e b r e ce r n e t. upon repeated—temporary a ted_ rents teni p r a a nd ry profits, relie the f would i same again afforded, and permanent distress would again re turn.—(Hear, hear.) If 30, 40, 50—nay, if 100 per cent. were assessed upon the landed proprietors and capi talists, and the whole amount both of rents and profits given in aid of wages, the process and the result, wit), respect to the labouring class, would be precisely as before. But although this system, which distributed amongst the mass of the people not only all the rent of land, but also all the profit of capital, could afford no permanent relief to the working classes, it would inflict the greatest injury and degradation upon the whole community. In the first place, when a country possessed, in the form of rent and profit, a considerable surplus revenue beyond what was necessary for the subsistence of the population, it may, when a deficient harvest occurs, export a portion of its superfluities and luxuries in exchange for food ; and thus avert the miseries of famine. But when, by means of compulsory assessments, rent and profit, instead of ex isting as a net surplus revenue, are given in aid of wages, when the people (as must inevitably be the case, should the principle of population be uncontrouled) breed up to the point at which the whole revenue of the country is ab sorbed in mere subsistence, then there cannot be by possi bility any surplus articles for exportation. This universal poverty of the country must render the purchase of foreign corn or other food impracticable; and every deficient crop must lead inevitably to hopeless and unmitigated famine. In the second place, this partition of lent and profit amongst the people would very speedily de stroy all leisure, would put a stop to every species of intellectual culture, and would confine each and all to the business of providing for merely animal wants. Nat a single mind would be left to cultivate the field of thought; the progress of knowledge would be arrested ; nay, so far from the human mind being, under such circumstances, capable of further advances, the attainments already achieved would speedily be lost; arts, literature, and science would be no more ; and the darkest barbarism re turn.—(Hear.) This state of hopeless misery and uni versal degradation would be the natural and the inevitable result of giving the unemployed poor a compulsory relief from the landed capital of the country, supposing such right were allowed to operate freely and unchecked. The advocate for Poor Laws, established on the principle of granting to the people a right to compulsory relief, con tended that such rights would not be allowed to operate so as to increase the population, but, on the contrary, would be so controuled and modified as actuilly to check and controul the principle of population. It is maintained that the necessity of providing for the wants of the people would cause the landed proprietors to exert their power to prevent the increase of the people, and to keep the supply of labour within the limits of the demand. But what did•this doctrine involve? It involved one of two things —either a feudal system, under which the proprietors of the soil should become irresponsible tyrants and the people ' abject and passive slaves, or else an agrarian system, under which the people at large would be co •proprietors of the I land, and contesting with its nominal owners the distribu tion of the produce.—(Hear.) Twenty years back, end I this feudal system would be admitted to be impracticable; to pursue the agrarian would bring us to the law of the strongest—to the state of nature,,lo " The good old rule, the simple plan, That he should take who had the pow", And he should keep who can." _....(Hear,) If the Hon. Member would confine his pro position to introducing into Ireland such a system of poor laws as would leave it in the hands of the majority of he rate-payers to levy a poor-rate for the support ef the blind, the impotent, and those permanently ince,p4ble of labour, he (Colonel T.) should give s uch r, proposition his support (Hear, hear) --but when he proposed to extend his principle to the wht.le of the population, he (Colonel T.) would take the liberty to tell him it would have the e4ect of abrogating the rights of property, and thmty destroy all the motives which stimulated to t 1.4 production of wealth, and dry up the very sourcea whence charity was derived.—(Hear, hear,) 'if they thus threw all into common, who would found to cultivate the soil? Who ' would mite the produce whence all was derived a The cyctem thus engendered was, in his opinic,;,,' destructive of the principles of civilization—product:,;; industry would cease, and the land be thrown back itiVl a desert state. He (Colonel T.) sincerely admired the benevolence and charity of the lion. AieMber who brought forward this resolution 3 bqt he would venture to remind bins that te neyolc.nce and charity, when not under the 14W ance of economical science, might become the itsvc.%.ntery instru ments of mischief, aggravating tho :ails they endeavoured to remove, and resemblinz their effects those splendid but baleful meteors,. which shed a deathf u l lustre on the disorder they Mr, : , :iA/SLElts.—W e ll, then it wattld clear the evils all off, Mr. ROBINSON thonghi Sault the two preceding speak ern had totally failed to answer the arguments of the Hoe, Moyer or' She resolution. He was inclined to agre e with the proposition of that gentleman, and ha thought that if the House would affirm it, they should find no in superable difficulties to obstruct them in applying a remedy. From his own observatiou he could bear testimony to the frugality and ir., , d;„-. 4 try of the Irish labourers. Witness their arAnual migrations, which were occasioned by nothing le,nt the desire to obtain employment, Whatever other difficulties might be found in th.e. anticipation of remedies to the distresses of Ireland., sane would originate from the habits or dispositicns of the labourers themselves. Nothing but the e'iLif.k.noe of the poor laws, with all their evils, ca - ,;:id have saved this country from beiug flaw in the state in which Ireland was placed. He thought the exertions of his Hon. Friend on thin subject highly praiseworth\;„ and he earnestly, e7;horted him to ;:erservere, fully larfieV ing that he. would retp at IP; distant peri . W . 4 02a - fruits of 4iq benevolent labours . • Mr. STIH r IaAND explai.ned. T"7,1 ALTHORP wished to address a few woths to the House on this important subject. The question which had been started by the Hon. Gentleman opposite was one of extreme diffisulty, and derseeving of the most serious consideration of his Mojiaty's Government and of the Leltislature. The Hon. Member had given a true account of the condition of Ireland. He had truly stated, not only that great distress prevailed at present in that country, bit that extreme distress—..(anal he might almost say peed -1 fence occasioned by it)—prevailed tb.ere periodically.— (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Althop) was sorry, indeed, that he was not able, from his own knowledge, to advance I the. least contradiction of the Hon. Gentletuan',.; statement. I(Hear, hear.) But he must at the same time remind the House, that on this and on otlte - a. subjects calculated to excite greatly the feelings of the people, there was a peat sip,toitt er find n d liability to exagge;atiou ; if not as to the extent ar degree of the tlit:t:ass, at least as to its progress..,Hear, hear) and although it was quite true the,lia: the present moment ilreland was in a state cf 'eery great distress, ye: that country was, on tlle 'whole, in progress of iruproVement. He thought '4es condition would appear, upon calm invest t gution, to be now much bettai than it usually had been • in former times.—(Heite, hear.) At the same time, that comparative prosperity gave no. reason that they should net look to the cause of the existing distress with a strong wish to reliev,e, it, or that they should not ' apply their whole :marls to the discoveu of the proper remedy.—fCiies of'.• Hear,. hear, hear.") But to, ex, relief. The Hon,. - i';(entleman who had truly stated that or , o of aNaiate the nature and c,..csent of the distress could in - contribute s n p o o t k v e ay last cr . Robinson)t 'st. F the causes, indeed the main cause, of all the distress was the want of proatable employment far labour. In that statement he (Lord Althorp) fully concurred ; and. it seemed to him to be indubitable, that if by any means the House could create such employment, it would at once re move the. distress.—(Hear.) But he confessed that he had his doubts respecting the adequacy of the Ron. Gentle man's own plans, who, although he acknowledged that the of England. was onf t t for, Ireland, yet l l a i w is object to be the relieving of all those who could profitable employment for themselves. I How did the Hon. gentleman suppose that their compulsory sup port without employment could afford the means of cm . ploying them profitably ?—(Hear.) To him it seemed I extremely doubtful that the measures intended to be pro posed by the Hon. Gentleman would tend much to relieve the in destitutefaetin r c e o s e u n n t t r didistress d o y f a I rellaarngde. proThvisereionway, ro T v h i e s r i o e n w f a o s r , t t h h e at p part of the population. There were in most parts of that country hospitals and other institutions for the relief o f the distressed. There were, in effect, instruments by whi c h a more extensive, indeed an adequate, relief could be ap plied. He believed that the Legislature might avail itself Of the means afforded by such.institutions, without having recourse to anything like the poor laws of England.-- (Hear.) It was true that the Hon. Gentleman only called on the House to affirm a general proposition ; but it was impossible to a cce d e t o th a t p ro position without know ing the details of the plan which was afterwards to be submitted to the House. If the House acceded to the resolution at present before it, without having first ascer tained that it could command the means of removing the distress, it would give rise to an opinion in Ireland that systematic relief had been determined on ; and if after wards it should appear that the plan yet to be proposed by the Hon. Gentleman was not satisfactory, the Legislature would have excited hopes in the country which never could he realized. It had been said by the gentleman who spoke last (Mr. Robinson), that the Hon. Mover was by his perseverance upon that subject, gaining the confi dence of the public; and he (Lord Althorp) was reedy to admit that the lion. Gentleman was shaking the opinions of many who before were decidedly hostile to the introduc tion of any system of poor laws into Ireland. Although that was certainly the case, and he had himself seen many instances of change of opinion, yet he had met with ten defined plan amongst . all the plans that had ken pro posed, which could be expected to lead to the permanent benefit of the country. It was his (Lord Althorp's) opi nion, that the institution of poor laws in Ireland would give an immediate relief; but that it would ultimately preserve that country from the recurrence of the present evils he very much doubted. He thought, therefore, that it would be very injudicious then to relieve Ireland (and England also, he would say) from difficulties (which equally oppressed both) by a measure which would sub ject them to future evils of greater malignity.—(Hear, bear, hear.) They had been referred to the pros perous condition in which England continued for so;long a period under the operation of the poor laWs. But he would ask what was it that for so tang a Cane preserved the country from many evils, which were now felt with extreme force? It was that feeling of ho nour and independence which prevailed amongst the labouring classes, checking them from applying for parish relief, and which the alterations of the currency and the in creasing scarcity of the means of subsistence have at length. to a great extent, diminished. That high spirit of inde pendence having been broken down, the poor laws became more detrimental in their operation than formerly. But he would put it to the Hon. Gentleman, es hetner there was at present in Ireland that high feeling of independence amongst the labouring classes, which would lead those people to think that application for relief under the Poor Laws was a degradation ?—(Hear.) But if that feeling did not exist in great strength at the time of the introdu a tion of those laws into Ireland, it would be very difficult to present them from leading to very great evils.-_( rear.) Beaides, the Hon. Gentleman seemed entirely to 'overlook the:difficulty of finding in Ireland the machinery for car ry* such laws in effect.—(Hear, bear.) He, were there to ipe found in the severel parishes of Iralaesd, considering the s present state of education there, pereona capable of executing the important trust which must be committed to those who have to act under these laws ? Of all the nu tnerous witnesses who were examined before the Cemmittee of inquiry into the state of the poor in Ireland, although so many were favourable to the introduction of Poor LaWs, only one could point out a means of find inge-nachlnery to put such laws in operation. Well, what was the opinions of that witness? Why, that there must be a Government offic e in every parish. Now, if the plan of the,Hon. Gentleman who moved the resolution could only be carried inta effect by Government interference in every tvlatehlef:c.le: folly tawintoy established.ob f a d the , t advantages enliekiln.daslyn e o z et p o, e n c si t e : on d :c f : r .te , pedals of Ireland, he (Lord A.) should not give it his sup park,ti i h o a plan n. Gn until disposed to give a direct negative to the proposition of the to put it ok from day to day, for the purpose of accent_ t t h b eHo r u e s , e ad a o t p t t h t e i same am m e id t d i le me i jo t a hraset ,thbeyremsoolvuitnio:t,hien medating him (L or d A . ) ; and he, therefore, much re gretted that th e d eta il s o f t h e plan were not explained to respect binding th em to i t, was proposed. He should, erefo o u s mr. `'FEY LAND question, E p s r o e m vi e - LAND (as we understood) was of opinion, that if once adequate employment were provided for the Irish people, they would not relapse into pauperism. If ths'capital of that country were extended at home, it would be sufficient to furnish ample employment for the people; and it was his opinion that the poor laws would lead to that result._—( Hear„ hear.) SHEIL said, that between the application of poor lank to large towns end to agricultural districts, there was a great distinction. In a city like Dublin many of the evils of an , agrarian rate would scarely arise. There would be found, in the first place, a committee of unpaid ; of dili gent, and disinterested managetnent—th e operation appre hended upon wages and rents would not, in asty large de gree, be produced. The assessment might lee compulsory, but relief might be discretionary ; and that relief would its all cases be so small, as not to afford incentives to im providence. The minimum for life would be the maxi mum of aid, Besides, if the experiment failed, the Le gislature might retrace its progress, the mischief would not he irremediable, for the mendicity association might he restored to its present amiable, but he was sorry to be obliged add inefficient, relation to the public. in Dublin, then, let the tentative process begin. Dublin had peti tioned for the power of relieving pauperism from want, and benevolence from the burden of its exclusive sustain ment. This demand bad originated from the failure of the association. Even if it had succeeded, he should de sire to put an end ma system by which charity was mulcted, while parsimonious opulence escaped from contribution.._ (Hear.) The tax which pity levied on its slender resources enabled insensibility to hug itself in the ignominious con sciousness of its privilege, and gave a base immunity to men without a heart.—(Cheers.) He would, he owned, disturb the saselid luxuries of men who, in the midst of the ?tablic scorn, turned their self-applauding con templation to their chests of gold. But the society to which he had referred had failed, and it would be vaine to argue the question upon an hypothesis of its success. If private benevolence could support its weight, it mere well ; but when it sinks beneath it, it was but reasonable if he. might borrow an illustration from a source so sacred, to give it an auxiliary, and enable it to hear the hurthen which it had no longer strength sufficient to sustain.-- (Cheers.) Should the Legislature refuse to extend to the Dublin vestries the right of making an assessment in aid of the Alendicity Association, it must close its gates on four thousand paupers, and pour whole shoals of beggary, weh all its worse accompaniments of loathsomeness, both moral and physical, into the public streets. • The institu tion oaf a rate in the Irish metropolis would prevent this serious evil—it would equalize contribution —would be a resource to indigence and to benevolence—would be guarded from abuse by the vigilance of good and kindly men, and would be a precedent for adoptioa by its success, or, if it should unhappily fail, would dispose by the evidence of experiment of the entire question, by furnishing an ex ample which would not only deter from imitation, by,t put to these speculations for the improvement of Irelarol a sa lutary end, With respect to the general question, it was to be lamented that the Committee on the state of the poor in Ireland did not report on whet seemed to ho the essence and marrow of the matter which was referred to theise consideration, It must he confessed, however, task they had doze important ; service by pub so large a hotly of valuable testimony. The tees) witnesses moss conspicuous were Dr. Chalmers and Dr. Doyle, wie, dissenting in opinion, coincided in huma nity, vied with each other in lofty faculty and in pure eneeSion,--diff e red its dogma, but agreed in benevolence, . and exhibited such a unions of truly Christian attributes, that they should reconcile the two religions of which they are the ornaments, and induce Rome to forgive Geneva, And Geneva to pardon Rome.--(Hear, hear.) When men so distinguished took views so opposite, it was difficult to arrive at a conclusion free from doubt. He thought, , however, that Dr. Doyle must be allowed to have, as a witness, this signal advantage,—he spoke of what he had seen, the other of what he had beard. Dr. Chalmers talked of human nature, Dr. Doyle of its peculiar modifi cation in his own country. ' Dr. Chalmers was afraid of congealing the pure sources of gratuitous benevolence.-- Ile did not know that in the heights of society in Ireland, the morel temperature was already below the freezing point, and that there was a crust of ice upon the fountain of sympathy which charity could not melt, but which the law perhaps must break.—(Hear, hear.) Be owned that he thought it is paradox in others to maintain misery. • the retired sensibility at the cost of wor m: r en t° find It was sts&cient to look at Ireland w i h n ere the premises painful answer to, those moan gi in order to keep kindliness in practice, and to . cul t ivate in c h:aims was so practi were so amiable, at .sthiClll"e:onoznist he would paint cally cruel. would lhuddei and confute him, There enough to wake him- ij open the door and show hint an Irish hovelohea he 11°°. ;hat ail, tabli9lo. elution Pt a lread! ,hree but i 5