The Sun. — London, England, 1827-05-08 00:00:00

d I 1 r )'-fPi - ~/ ~yt. 11 No. 10,814. to the end of the Session, without knowing the Govern ment? I cannot but look back to the names of Pitt and Fox ; and- looking at those names, I would ask, would they ever have entered into such a Government as this, under a declaration that it stands as a Provisional Government? Now, if the Noble Lord will stand up and state in the face of the House, that that is not the case, then I will waive the calling for those papers, which I shall now propose to have brought forward ; but, if not, I will day after day, and time after time, do my duty to my country with respect to what I conceive to be so con temptible an imposition on every honest man. That is my firm and honest opinion—(Much laughter)—(a long pause)—l will go a little further before I sit down— (Loud and long continued laughter. )—lf the state of things continues, I shall certainly feel it my duty, although I do not profess to be able to prove before this House what I have .:card, yet I shall feel it my duty to submit to this House the reports that are iu cireulation.—(bursts of laughter.)—Now, in respect to those reports nothing is so easy as a simple and distinct contradiction ; and if I hear that contradiction given, I will not only apologise to your Lordships for having unnecessarily occupied your time, but acknowledge that I have been guilty:of a most unpardonable indiscretion— (Hear !)—if not, I will state to this House, and to the country, all the details that have came to my ears, with re spect to this provisional Government. And though I may be arrested in tbis House—though I may be attempted to be written down by the vile and venal ; - ,,ess of this country— though that press may ridicule me, and endeavour to place me in a situation which, I will venture to say, would be very painful to any man betbre the public—(Laughter.) whether I am arrested in this House, or put down by a venal press I say—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition, and great laughter.)—l will tell them both that all their satire passes by me as the idle wind, which I regard not —(continued laughter)—and I will stand up here and distinctly state those reports which I have heard, and which may, perhaps, induce Noble Lords in this place, and persons in another place, to deny distinctly what is alleged in public.—(Loud cries of hear.)—lt is said that a certain great and eminent Barrister did make certain overtures, not only with respect to himself and his party, but with respect to a Noble Marquis and his party, to the first Lord of the Treasury. I state what I now say from mere rumour—(hear hear, from the Opposition benches) —but if it be not true, nothing can be so easy as to deny it. But it is stated, that those overtures were received and put up into his pocket. It is stated that no communication of those overtures was made to his colleagues. Subsequently the First Lord of the Treasury went to Windsor, and while there, as I am informed, certain use was made of those communications ; but without entering into what passed at Windsor,. I will say that the result has proved what took place. On a future occasion I may perhaps go into details, but at present we see the Learned Advocate to whom I have alluded, and the Noble Marquis too, ranged on the other side of the House.—( Hear, hear. )—From what I can understand too, the colleagues of the First Lord of the Treasury were ignorant of all this till a fortnight afterwards, and entirely igno rant of any ace having been made of the overtures at Windsor. Now you may talk of a Cabal, but if those reports are proved, there is another word to be made use of, which I must call something like intrigue. If those reports be true, that the Noble Lord should have received those over tures, and that subsequently the negotiation should have proved their effect, I do think the country will record something like what occurred in our annals in the year 1609. , When the Secretary of State for the Home Department I heard of this communication, he expressed his surprise that it should have been in the poss=:ian of the Right 11 Gentleman for ten or fourteen days, and yet be kept secret by hint. I have no information on these points.— ( Cheers and laughter. )—I admit that I have no information I declare to my God that I have none.—(Continued laugh ter.)—l speak entirely from report, and until that be un contradicted, lam bound to believe it. If what 1 charge these Noble Lords with be untrue, I will throw myself on their indulgence, and most heartily beg their pardon ; but if the provisional Government ex:st, I will sift oil th.. circumstances, and trust that in the end we shall see ranged against us an intelligent Administration. As to the Noble Marquis who has lately left this side of the House, lie is like a fish in the water, propelled by his tail, for I understand that he has been urged on by the tail of his party. The Noble Marquis then proceeded to express his regret that a Noble Marquis, who lately held the House in admiration of his talent, should have de stroyed that high opinion which they had entertained of him, by consenting to act as second at the op. polite side of the House. It was a matter of surprise that the Marquis of Lansdown—(Loud cries of Order) —that the Noble Marquis of Lansdown, who was leader of the Opposition, should be now stationed as he is on the Ministerial Benches. The Noble Marquis con cluded by moving for several returns, of which the followinglis the substance:— A Return of the Appointments in the Foreign Depart ment at home and abroad, including the name, station, and emoluments of the persons appointed, together with the total expenditure of the Foreign Department. Several Returns connected with the expenditure of the Foreign Department. A Return of the names, rank, and station of persons allowed to retire upon pensions, specifying the circumstances under which they have received their pensions. A Return of the persons appointed to situations in the Foreign Department at home and abroad, specifying the cause of the appointments. Lord DUDLEY, after defending his conduct in accept ing office, which he did when the services of every subject were more than usually necessary to his Sovereign, express ed a hope that the Noble Marquis would withdraw his motion for the present, and give nu:;:ice for a future day. He pledged himself to their Lordships that every exertion should be made meanwhile to furnish the required infor mation, if possible. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that as the papers were made out quarterly, no great delay could arise i❑ furnishing them. He had, however, no disposition to press the matter, but he was deter mined in getting at all necessary information. The Noble Marquis heard that great alterations were con templated at the Foreign Office, amongst other things he learned that it was intended to build a magnificent house for the Foreign Secretary.—(Hear, hear.) After some further conversation the Noble Marquis with drew his motions, with notice that he would renew them on Thursday next. The Earl :if WINCHILSEA informed their Lordships that he had not made up his mind as to the day when lie should submit his motion respecting the State of the Nation. He would be prepared, however, to inform their Lordships, very shortly, what time he should fix. 3 4 , ...4 ilYial,t*i.,.._.4• 4lS ) (' ~,..-- -" "...e0 4. .."' . -. ' '1"44_,, _.•,.• j ev • .- 4 ,•,•, • r l• - til'.,.' -. ."•••:;,--„,ii ) s• ( - * (----- ' ,i.4,W... - V;-!.7"/' ' ` ~ ...° Bk j r: -44 t AI N I Z --,— :>-' ' '', ./‘ v ' . . 4 .",,. _ • , e .,..,. .: ,••.2.A . „,ii*,._, Q -.. p•:..._ _..,,,, 3.-.=_ -- ----__ ~, ,,i r , ,, .....,.._„, ,,_ , , _ • - tt' . •fA . •• •* 7 l its.:•': A t ; ,1 ~ , - A IL - - -A-W.‘ ', _ . 1 / ‘ ' .' i FM ,- . _ •,,„1, V 4 -' - ---'''.- --, \ _.lll . y * ' d e_ .4r ii , t r c,,,, ~...,* .- ~ „.)/ - . • - (10""•''. . , ,-,, ,. 0 AT. - - _,-, , - •'' 1 - -, . l r' ''' .il,t+ 'NUliff ••1 1 111" 1 - N1ON• i to - r , , I;Ill' 4.,'N . 1 , . -'1:_ 1 ,1:,i.. ' PRICE 7D. t hat he deprecated discussion on this question. He had voted against Catholic Emancipation ; but he saw no rea son why those Gentlemen who favoured the question should not choose their own time, and what would best suit their own convenience, to introduce the question. With respect to the principles of the Administration which now exists, lie wished some opportunity would arise, when the Right Hon. Gentleman would declare to the House the nature and extent of those changes which have taken place. Till that time he would suspend his opinion. At the same time, he hoped the time of the House would not again be occupied in this manner. Lord ALTHORP thought it incumbent on him to take this opportunity of stating his opinion, on the subject of the late Ministerial arrangements. He had at first some doubts on the subject, but was now prepared to state that these doubts had been completely removed.—(Hear, hear —lt was impossible not to see that they had now a straight plain course before them, which was one great benefit &- rived from the recent arrangements. He, and those whe thought with him, had no other alternative than to support those who, upon the whole, were liberal and enlightened Statesmen; or, by opposing them, to make way for the introduction into the Administration of the country, o' Toryism in its most hideous form.—(Hear, hear.) — He had differed from the Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of the Administration cti the question of Par liamentary Reform, and the repeal of the Test and Corpo - ration Acts, and he differed from him on these questions still. But he should he rgad, if he were to wish to throw the Right Hon. Gentleman and his Administration out of office on account of that difference, when he could onh have in their stead persons from whom he differed, not only on those questions, but on every other—(Hear, hear.) —With respect to the Catholic Question, he had thought and still thought, that the Emancipation of the Catholic, ought to be brought forward as a Government measure. But here again, if he were to succeed in turning out the Right Hon. Gentleman, he would only have in the places of him and his colleagues, persons who were on principle hostile to Catholic Emancipation, and who would, nuclei any circumstances, refuse to make it a Government mea sure—(Hear, bear.) Mr. COLBORNE concurred with the Noble Lord who spoke last, in the sentiments and opinions which he hat; expressed ; and, with respect to the finances, he agreed that everything should be done, for this year, as quiett, as possible, since the subject would probably next yea] be fully investigated by a Committee cf that House. 1-h had always felt considerable confidence in the Administra tion as recently arranged, and that confidence had beet not a little strengthened by the tone and temper of the late debates.—(Hear, hear.)—As to those v;ho had retiree: from office, he thought it a matter of very little conse quence whether they had resigned collectively or not but they did resign either collectively or separately, and were not turned out; and, besides, it did not come witl the best grace from them to dwell so much on difference, of opinion among the members of the present Adminis tration, because it was well known what differences o' opinion prevailed in the Cabinet to which they themselve, b e l onge d. With respect to what had been said by the Honourable Member under the gallery about the Whigs, it might be justly said, that, for some years past, the Whigs had acted a most honourable part. He regretted the tone and temper which had been evinced in the recent debates—whether proceeding from resentment, or disap pointment, or whatever other motive, he di cl not not know, but he could not help observing, that where there was much want of temper there could not be much discreti, —(Hear)—and the Gentlemen in Opposition were acting in a way than which none could be worse for themseives i,ord NUGENT.—As some in that House had com menced a systematic opposition against the Ministry, he hoped he might be allowed shortly to aL.,.te the reasons why he supported them. His opinions on the Catholic Ques tion had been often mentioned, and he had earnestly de. sired that the new Ministry should stand pledged to brim forward the Catholic Question as a Government measure; but on looking round the Cabinet, he saw no clear indica tions of any such pledge, and lie had been prepared to oc cupy his usual station on the Opposition side ; and it was not till Tuesday last that he had altered his intention, ante he had heard the speech of the Right Hon. Member fot Oxford, the late Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment. That speech told him that the Right Hon. Gentle man considered the chance of carrying the Catholic Ques tion as an insuperable objection in his mind to any Go vernment, and that what he would consider a good Government must stand in some measure pledged t( deny the Catholics what it was wise in policy and just in the name of God to grant them. He found that the Right Honourable Gentleman could only be sa tisfied with a Government which stood pledged against the Catholic Question. An Honourable Gentleman, had asked what was the bond of union between tht Reformers and the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Administration. To this he replied, that the present Opposition themselves were the bond of union, the prin cipal bond of union, among all those who supported the Catholic Claims. He and they who agreed with him ha,: been twitted about Parliamentary Reform, and the Test and Corporation Acts. He was sorry that the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Administration had thought it necessary to declare that he would oppose the repeal o! the 'fest and Corporation Acts; but his opinions on that matter remained unaltered, and he would always maintair those principles upon which he had acted when he sat or the other side. But the Catholic Question was by far the greatest question of the present day, and therefore both h( and his friends were deeply interested in the support of this Government, the head of which was favourable to Catholic Emancipation. And on this account they were deeply in• debted to Mr. Canning for the loftiness of his mind and the soundness of his heart. In the meantime, the present Ad ministration had his full confidence, and he trusted woule continue to act so as to deserve the confidence of the bes; and most valuable portion of the community. Mr. MABERLY, adverted to the financial measures of which he had given notice, and to which he would most certainly have called the attention of the House before now, had it not been for the altered circumstances which had taken place, which might render a change in the mode of proceeding desirable. He had been taunted on thi, subject, and could no longer defer his explanation. It ha(i been said of some Gentleman, that he had willingly sacri ficed his principles ; that was extraordinary language, and language which certainly did not apply to him. He had given notice of a Motion relative to the Sinking Fund, the Dead Weight, and in short, to the whole of the funde(l, and refunded debt of the country ; and he still maintained that an inquiry into these matters and into the whole con dition of the revenues and experebture of the country was I , tr _ • NS. *,-., • . n • N., .k .. .. t,, House, more particularly as the attest) of t l 4-4Ulselials been a second time diverted from th`li:btaiee .:,. the speech of my Noble Friend, as I I 131 7 ' . ... AO. him. lam pleased, also, with the opportelltY,of Answer ing the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last," and answering him on what he is courteously pleased to say, he does not put to me as a question, but as a recommendation only, and in respect to which the House, I think, may probably be glad to hear me state my present intentions. Now, Sir, it is undoubtedly my intention to propose early in the next Session of Parliament, a Committee of Finance, similar to those which were appointed three several times in Mr. Pitt's administration; after him in 1807, during Mr. Per ceval's Government ; and again in 1817, on the motion of Lord Bexley.—(Hear, hear.)—lt is my intention to pro pose such a Committee, and to submit to its consideration the whole state of our revenue. I ought, in justice to add, that it was fully the intention, during the last Session of Parliament, of my Bight Hon. and now my Noble Friend (Viscount Goderich) to lay before this House such a pro position, and that intention would have been executed ham not public events taken so extraordinary a course as to drive him, at that time, from his purpose ; and had not the state of the country been subsequently such as to preclude any immediate expectation of bringing such a measure to a successful issue. lam the rather glad that that measure was postponed, because, without desiring, by this state ment, improperly to raise the hopes of the country, I du feel justified in saying, that its condition is gradually, slowly, but perceptibly improving.—(Cheers.)—Under these circumstances, whatever may be the ultimate disposi tion of this House, after we have looked our financial situa tion fully in the face, and after this Committee shall have brought its labours to a clo►e, I shall hest discharge my duty, and best consult the interests of the country, by keep ing all things this year as quiet as we possibly can, by avoiding all resort to extraordinary measures, and by shun ning every thing which would promote agitation, or excite speculation of any kind in the community. Hat.lue,- stated thus much, in the hope that it will not be un acceptable to the House, I shall, in the next place, pro pose to proceed on Friday, in Committee, with the votes -f Supply; and I have to state to the House, that unless any accidental cause shall arise to prevent me, it ha my present intention to submit to the House, my financial statement for the year, before the Whitsun holidays. (Cheers. I will proceed with the votes in the Committee of Supply, next Friday evening, and then will be the legitimate opportunity for all those who have made up their minds to evince their loyalty to the King, and their anxiety for• the interests of their country, by postponing the supplies-- (Loud cheers)—to proceed with their opposition—. (Cheers)—then I say will be the legitimate opportunity, not when the motion before you is merely to postpone the Committee. I should hope Sir that this will be the last of these extraordinary debates, and that the House, seeing that an Hon. and Gallant Officer has a motion before it, relative to the shipping interest, and that so many gentle men connected with that interest are knocking at its doors, it will, at least, condescend to hear them.-- :leers.) Lord MILTON hoped that he might still be permitted to say a few words, the design of which was to express hie grateful satisfaction at the intention of the Right Hon. Gen tleman to refer the state of the finances of the country to a Committee of that House. This was a measure which was now imperiously demanded; and unless the Right Hon. Gentleman could, with the aid of that Committee, find means to make the Revenue commensurate with the expenditure, or the expenditure with the Revenue, the calamities of the country, instead of being relieved, would. !se greatly aggravated. His Noble Friend near him (Lord Althorp) had exactly expressed his sentiments with regard •o the present Goverment, and in what his Noble Friend `mad said he fully concurred. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN had no hesitation in say ng that it was his wish to support the present Govern nent, and hoped that their measures would be such as to 'table him conscientiously to support them. This much ought it desirable for him to state, being one of the 2epresentatives of the capital of the kingdom. Sir H. HARDINGE did not understa"3 the myste pious and shuffling r.-anner in which the Catholic Ques tion was attempted to be smothered. The petition was then ordered to be printed. Colonel DAVIES withdrew a notice of his which •tool ..n the Order Book for Wednesday neat, fur the passing of 11 , ,..olutioi1—ths'.. in future zhe Estimat,a c' fr.e year ihould, previously to th it being printed, be referred to a Select Committee. highly expedient, and it was his intention to do every thing in his power to see that point fully followed up. Certainly lie would not willingly sacrifice his principles—whether the Right Hon. Gent. was or was not opposed to such an inquiry he then did not exactly know; but at the saint time, he distinctly stated, that he would not he satisfied with the semblance of an inquiry. But if the Right Hon. Gent. would promise such a Committee of Inquiry as he con tended for early in the next year, lie would, in the mean time, suspend his objections to the Estimates, and go along- with him in his financial measures. He did not insist upon an answer from the Right Hon. Gent. at present, as that would perhaps be hardly fair ; but he did most earnestly re commend this course to him, as one which would give great satisfaction to the country, and prove no slight means of es tablishing his Government. With respect to the question M Parliamentary Reform, he had voted for reform; and if the question were brought forward with the real intention of pro moting that object, he would most strenuously support it.— But if it were brought forward plainly with the view of em barrassing the Government, and putting an end to the pre sent Administration, then he would move the previous ques tion upon it ; for he did not think himself called upon rashly to lend his aid to the destruction of an Administra tion in which all the talents and all the discretion of the House were united, to an extent that had hardly been ever before witnessed.—(Hear, hear. )_Among whom was In likely to find the greatest liberality in carrying his designs into effect ? Certainly among the present Administration. One Hon. Member had been against the postponement o his propositions on the present occasion, although his object in doing so was to procure a more perfect inquiry, and, indeed, formerly, some objected to all inquiry, and nothing would serve them but to plunge headlong into all manner of ,xpence and extravagance. This choice, how ever, was made, and he certainly would support the Right Hon. Gentleman and his Administration.—(Hear.) Mr. CANNlNG—Although it was certainly my deter mination not to be provoked to take any part in this dis cussion, arising on extraneous matters, I am yet, not pro voked indeed, but induced, Sir, by the speech of the Lion. Member for Abingdon, to address a few words to the ~ 4~; ROYAL ACADEMY, SOMERSET-PLACE. THE EXHIBITION of the ROYAL ACADEMY is now OPEN. Admission (from Eight o'Clock till Seven) Is. Catalogue Is. H. HOWARD, R.A. Sec. Under an Engagement with the Honourable East India Company to Sail on the 310 May next, FOR MADRAS, (With liberty to call at MADEIRA), THE remarkably fine new , coppered Ship, PRINCE REGENT, W. B. LAMB, Commander. Barthen 400 Tons. Lying in the West India Export Dock. Has superior accommodations for Passengers. Per Freight or Passage apply to BUCKLES, BAGSTER, and BUCHANAN, 33, Mark-lane. INCORPORATED LITERARY FUND SOCIETY, Under the immediate Patronage of his MAJESTY. THE THIRTY-EIGHTH ANNIVER. Er SARY FESTIVAL of thi s SOCIETY will b e cele ° ated in FREEMASONS' HALL, on WEDNESDAY next, the 9th of May, when Grace the Duke of SOMERSET, the President of the _ . Institution, will take the Chair. The presence of such Noblemen and Gentlemen as are "trourable to the objects of an Institution, so immediately ected wi t h t h e interests of Literature, is respectfully k olicited on this occasion. The Right Hon Lord Audley. The Right Hon. Lord Morpeth, The Right Hon. Lord Gorlerich, The Hon. G. Agar Ellis, M.P. Sir William Ashburnham, Bart. Sir John Edward Swinhurne, Bart. _ . The Venerable Archdeacon Narea, Mr. Sheriff Winchester, Alexander Dawson, Esg. M.P. • 11. r. Alderman 'Thompson, M.P. ; 101k - ' • • Williatii Adams, - Esq. Gee. E. Bevis E. Green, Esq. - John Hatchard, Esq. Richard Ravenhill Oakley, Esq. R. Percival, jun. Esq. F.S. A. William Pickering, Esq. Andrew Ramsey, Esq. Ticket s 208. each, to be had of the Stewards ; also of 11 . Snow, at the Chambers of the Society, No. 4, Lin- Lan-fields ; and at the Bar of the Freemasons' Tavern. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAT 7. Their Lordships met to-day at Four o'clock. Lord FIFE took the oaths and his seat. FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from the a t tereb ants and Manufacturers of Leeds, praying that their : 4 441 4 , s might take into their consideration the state of it , rad e now carried on between t hi s country an d I n di a. e h 7rl red f o b e laid on the table. , 'Te House adjourned at a quarter-past four during pleasu re, and resumed at five o'clock. CATHOLIC CLAIMS. Iteje ter heßishop o f CHESTER p resen t e d a petitio n f rom against any further concessions to the Catholics. e 'tightt Re v . Prelate assured th e i r L or d s hips th a t h e h a d 4 ; 4 ,s Was imputed to him, interfered in getting up the ee ,nee with w hi c h th e pe titi on or i g i na t e d. t.,!lfier fen?" words from Earl GROSVENOR, the pe a was la;d on the table. t h e T b li e Duke of SUSSEX, in presenting a Petition from N t .'"mnart Catholics of Connaught praying for Emanci -I,IM, said that his opinions on that subject were perfectly i t " a 'tered. It was a question sf the deepest importance, and ca w as but wise, that in endeavouring to get justice for the 0 ,, 41 k5, their friends should go with the feeling of the t e, -11t rY, and not act with violence or attempt to influence i t e Public m i n d . Th e quest i on requ i re d t i me an d cons i- Z ati ma, and as it h a d never b een , so it o ught not now to he t o 7" e a question of party ; it had hitherto been left open hi k t l e tY man to vote for it as he pleased—as such, continued • "°Yal Hi g h ness , I h ave voted for it, and as such I will ve roostte for it; but if it is to be made the standard of a party, roost certainly will not Tend my hand to it. T he petiti on was ordered to be laid on the table. NEW ADMINISTRATION. r,,:rhe Iklarquis of LONDONDERRY, in moving for a of the exact state of his Majesty's present Ad theistration, said, I want to knotv in what position jelr Lon Government of his Majesty stands. Will the ti ll ," Lord on the opposite side rise and state to the House 114,:i t i' is not a Provisionary Goverrunent ? Are we to Of e tand that there are shadows in the great Offices t o s tate.? My Lords, I have read very lately a his -47 s ab out t h e s h a d ow l ess man , b ut i n my op i n i on ° s rv tl ' e Present occasion there is a First Lord of the Tree- W ith many shadows. But I want to know in the State th e F ore i g n Department is as contrasted with ha s - i L lt ate of th e l a t e G o vernment. I understand there lie 7n very c ons id e rable expenditure incurred lately ; I be iftf fa rther that the First Lord of his Majesty's Treasury, / w a s; informed rightly, has within a very short time— %eet a% say received, but that he has made his ground sure t ee heremains in office or not,—that he has actually sid er , or is to receive, a pension of three thousand to Per annum fir his services. Now, I want th e ° w exactly in what condition that office is, and it is, „.n th a i e T r e, with a view of having that knowledge, that I cowl humbly propose to your Lordships for the return lam eth e g° , i ng to move for. My Lords, if the Noble Lord on the side ea rl I s distinctly that it is not a provisionary Pt °v s , e , ra ' n '"t, do declare that I will then on no account kp e d my motion ; but I ant determined, continually f st repeatedly to call upon him and this House, ts ar 4l t t his night to the end of the Session, if necessary, to f s e ,_ 44 point. 1 ant sure, my Lord, the Nuble Secretary s e in - Xte, who holds that office temporarily, would be very - I ,''',2bliged to me to have the return I now call for, because it tr ° ,7 giVe him an opportunity of seeing the very large amount Patronage that is to be disposed of. It is said there is a l'e re„ great desire existing to have the office of First Lord `lse T reasury, on acCoun tof the patronage that is attached kr t r °f fice. Crtainly I have always allowed that there frequently reasons for giving great favours, and those NT —'1. s L 1 I believe have been given on the present occasion to obi side Lords who have passed over from this to the other t o the Hou se; b u t it wou ld b e very satisfactory for us • ha s : ar n what return the First Lord of the Treasury thlai ° m ake. lam told, that in a very short time we s f E see him the Secretary of War--that he will take the ha ce of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that we shall rlo v e a Fi rs t L ord of the Treasury in Ireland. Now w h en pro Msu will tell me that the present arrangement is not Iri psional, I w i s h to examine into the grounds on q oi c h this g rea t l ove - for off i ce i s esta bli s h e d . G oo d ! when we see the chancres that have taken place Z ee t he Go vernment, which has been, by the wisdom of our rit , 'tors, or by th e w i sest and greatest men i n t h e t , te, establi s h e d upon a regular system—when we see j'eus overset--I speak w ith great humility, for I know no ling of the present Ministry ; but I will speak as an of at 7er with respect to the army, and I will say, that looking this arrangement, I cannot for the life of me understand W O h w ole mana gement is to be conducted, unless it is meant to throw the anagement of the army s into the hands of a Minis ters and that I most strenuously oppose. have an individ ua l to tak e Let us always this department, who would be aide to select good °fficera—wh would kive officers their merit s and promotion, and who would - be competent to ! e rve with them in the fi eld ; b u t if our army i s to directed dby a Secretarg. And it y s at no off' why that is quite iy in this d, be differ en t thint I will say , i n all the dep artments of office, epartment there is a t ti ' l replet e and entire deficiency, and for this reason, that ~,,° b° , l ), knows whether those now in offic e are to retain their r"'''cee or not. I say, and when I state that I see my Noble e 4 i i ea rl opposite me, let it be understood that no one has more si : v ,a,_te friendship for him than I have, when I see him te it c 4 s other side of the House, haying, in his ranks the tiq r t° Pions of Reform, and who have passed . over from this th e °T the House, I declare I think there is a revolution in th at ?Pinions and feelings and sentiments of this country :\ %lough to paralyse every rational man.—(Laugh throCZTY Lords I will not trouble your Lordships further 4 4 I declare io m Noble Friend, that I shall on every ad, bring the thing forward, humble as lam and in it 1 , 114 ' aa I may he to the task, but forward I will bring 'Ail the • y i s eas se e Informationpro d uced, I now call for, be of the ' would not press for it if I did not see by the state fat c° ntry, one of the mo s t contemptible arrangements ever 'save was proposed t o th e B r iti s h nation. • I beg hit s r guard myself against saying or using a word that f e :g a _ rd to any local circumstances, hut at present there k id most degrading, the most mean arrangement, to arrest th at c4 ` 3 ° o P p the fair declaration . and opinion of the country I‘l o b l u Possibly have existed. Good God ! When the gr , ot e Lord who used to head the House on this side, can eq uir er to the other side and lay himself down among gr on l i 3 he to delay till that period arrives when all the inf o "Ines& of the House is over, bringing forward the rre s mien now called for, and that then we are to be dto the right about,—(Great laughter) —ar e to re -. 44 here having our hands tied behind us from this moment CORN LAWS. Lord GODERICH thought it was desirable that some day should be now fixed for the second reading of the Corn Bill. He should be prepared for the discussion at any time, and, therefore, he would fix an early day. Monday next appeared to him a good day for that purpose ; but if that was inconvenient to Noble Lords, he should be very willing to change it to another day. The Earl of LAUDERDALE had no objection to the day now named, but if it was convenient to the Noble Viscount, he should wish the appointed day to be fixed with certainty. A conversation then ensued as to the day that it would be most convenient to fix for the second reading of the Bill, and ultimately Friday week was fixed for that pur pose, and their Lordships were ordered to be summoned for that day. Lord GODERICH, in the course of this conversation, called the Earl of Lauderdale " the Noble Earl." The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, that the Noble Viscount had made a mistake with regard to his rank and dignity in styling him an Earl. He begged to say, that although honours had been scattered lately in a very liberal manner, he had received no accession of dignity—(A laugh) : he sat in that House not as an Earl, but a Baron. [The Noble Lord sits as an English Peer as Lord Lauder dale, in Scotland his title is Earl of Lauderdale.] CATHOLICS. The Earl of MANSFIELD gave notice, that upon the 7th of June next he should submit a motion to their Lord ships regarding Catholic Emancipation, and he should therefore move that their Lordships be summoned for that day. Earl GREY said, he should not now oppose the discus sion of that question, whatever he might think of its intro duction at this moment, but he much wished to be informed in some way or other what WZY the purpose and what the intention of this motion ? From what had passed on a former night, he did not exactly understand what was the TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 8, 1827. course intended to be pursued on one side with regard to the Catholics ; but he did understand that their claims were to be met with a more decided opposition than before. Now wishing, as he did, that every thing which took place with regard to them might promote their ultimate success, he did desire to know what was the object of this mo tion ; and he should also wish, if it was convenient for the Noble Earl to afford the information, to be made acquainted with the manner in which it was framed? The Earl of MANSFIELD was ready to give every ex planation in his power, but he must be excused if at that moment he was unable to detail very precisely the form and object of the motion. However, he was able to say, that it was his wish and intention to lay before their Lordships a Resolution, declaring that the country was now in a fit state to require them to express their decided opinions with regard to the exclusion of the Catholics from power, and to say whether that exclusion ought to he abolished, or limited, or maintained in its pre= sent state. He should also propose to them to declare that they approved of the principle .of exclusion, and that they considered it to be founded on and immutably connected with the principles of the British Constitution ; and further, it would be his wish to obtain, by means of this motion, a declaration from the Crown that would allay the alarms of his Majesty's Protestant subjects, by making it known that it was his Majesty's intention to prevent aey encroachment on the ecclesiastical establish ments of the country. This was the purport of his mo tion, although these_ would not be the precise words of it. Whether he proceeded or not in this motion would depend in a great measure on the opinions of those with whom he acted. His own opinions with regard to the policy and propriety of exclusion were (he was obstinate enough to say) likely to remain unchanged, but he should not act upon them alone. The motion he intended to submit was one which, if it succeeded, he thought would be attended with general benefit—if it failed, he knew that ridicule would be attempted 'to be attached to it. All that ridicule he was himself prepared to submit to, but he should not press tie motion if those for whose opinions he entertained the highest respect should think he ought to defer it; but he should not be prevented from persisting in his motion by any apprehension that by withdrawing it he should be blamed for weakness or indecision. The Order for summoning their Lordships on the 7th of June was then fixed. to that office, he would only sit there to assist the House, and he would be bound to give the House such opi nions as the House might exact from him. That there had been a change in the Constitution of that House, with regard to the hearing of Appeals, he was ready to acknowledge ; but it was a change effected by no other power than a majority of that House, and not only so, but at the express recommendation of the Noble Baron (Lauderdale.) When that alteration was first introduced to the House, he (Lord Holland) had warn ed them of the inconvenience of it, as it seemed to him it would introduce the practice of deciding appeals by sonic individual members, and not by the whole House. The Lord Keeper, the Speaker, and the Deputy Speaker of that House might be Commoners, and they would then only give their assistance to the House, not to decide the ap peals brought before them. Even the Lord Chancellor himself, though aPeer, did not possess any additional power as Lord Chancellor, in the decision of appeals ; and when he spoke upon any subject under discussion, be was obliged to quit his seat, and to speak only as a Peer, though he took, at the head of the Dukes' Bench, that high rank to which he was entitled by the dignity of his office. If the Deputy Speaker was sitting, and the Lord Chancellor came in, he must also take that seat as the first Peer in rank. These were the rules of the House, and he was sorry that in the expressions used by Noble Lords they seemed to have been forgotten. It was nut because they had the satisfaction of havir some Learned Law Lords among them, that ex piessions were to be used calculated to mislead the people, and to make them imagine that these Learned Lords, and not the whole House, sat to decide appeals. Lord LAUDERDALE explained ; and Lords ROSSLYN and WINCHELSEA said a few words, which were inaudible. The Commission appointing the Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer to sit at the hearing of Scotch Appeals was then read. GAME LAWS. On the motion of Lord WIIARNCLIFFE, their Lord ships went into a Committee on the Game Laws' Bill.— Several Clauses and Amendments were agreed to. Lord SHAFTESBURY moved that the House, on Wednesday next, do ballot for a Committee to hear Ap peals upon Writs of Errcr. At Eight o'Clock the House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, MAY 7. The Speaker took the Chair this evening at the usual hour, and upon the door being opened, the gallery was immediately filled. Several new Members were then sworn at the table, amongst others the Hon. Wm, lamb, who had vacated his seat by accepting the office of Secretary for Ireland. Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD withdrew his motion on the State of Ireland, which stood for to-morrow evening. The Marquis of CHANDOS said, that the Hon. Gen tleman having changed his seat since he had given notice of the motion in question, sufficiently accounted for the withdrawal of that motion. The Hon. Gentleman and those who, like him, had changed their seats, did not feel it convenient, nor were not at liberty now to express the opinions which they held when at the Opposition side.— (Hear, hear.)—But Le (the Marquis of Chandos) would inform those Honourable Gentlemen, that if they failed to express the opinions they so lately held, the country would know to what the change of sentiment ought to he ascribed—(Hear, hear,)—and the character of an English Whig would no longer be an object of admiration. Mr. M. FITZGERALD sail. he did port feel himself at all accountable for acting according to his own discretion in withdrawing any motion, last of all was he accountable to those who oppo..nd every proposal for the improvement of that country which his motion was intended to affect.— (Hear, hear.) Sir T. LETHBRIDGE rose to order. Ile submitted that there was no question before the House. The SPEAKER said, that . the Hon. Member un questionably was out of order, hut he wished Hon. Members who were watching the regularity of the pro ceedings, would have the impartiality to interfere before an Hon. Member had spoken on one side of the question. —(Hear, and laughter). Upon the presentation of a petition from Chester, by Lord BELaRAvr, against any further concession to the Roman Catholics, _ Sir H. HARDINGE rose to express hisaurprise at the extraordinary manner in which Hon. Members on the Mi nisterial side attempted t') smother the Catholic question. It was not a sine 'qua ;;.on, as the Hon. Member (Sir F. Burdett) termed it, but a sine die question. He (Sir 11. Hardinge) always had and always would vote in favour of Emancipation ; but he could not forget that the Hon. Mem bers who now wished to postpone the question of Emancipa tion, had a short time ago asserted that the frequent dis cussion of that question was the only way to promote it— (Hear, hear. ).—An Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Brougham) talked of the persecution and oppression of the Catholics, and yet that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, now consented to abandon those claims, and to support the present Ad ministration upon principles which God only knew. He was justified in this observation, because the Honourable Gentleman and his party, only agreed with the pre sent Prime Minister in one question, differing with bins in all others.—(Hear, bear, hear.)—He could not forget that the Hon. and Learned Gent. to whom he be fore alluded had charged the Right Hon. Gent. at the bead of affairs, with truckling for office, and surely other Hon. Members might now retort, for the Hon. and Learned Gent. had taken his place at that side of the House with • out any satisfactory reasons for such a change. In his (Sir H. Harding's) opinion, in Consistency, honesty, and good faith, every Member who postponed a question was bound to state the reasons which occurred between March and May, to induce him to take such acourse.—(Cheers.) Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD had no hesitation in stating that he had withdrawn his motion, because he feared that by persevering in bringing it on, he should inflict an injury on the Catholic cause, and his opinion on this point was borne out by the unanimous opinion of the Catholics themselves. He was not accountable to any person for choosing his own side of the House, but he had no hesita tion in declaring that he stood at the side he now did to advocate and support the same opinions he held when at the opposite side of the House, and also to sup port an Administration which, however embarrassed by faction, he was convinced intended well to the Empire, and particularly to that country, the inte rests of which he (Mr. Fitzgerald) had most at heart. For those reasons he stood where he now did, and he had an additional reason, in the desire to oppose that cabal to which the Noble Lord and the Gallant Gentleman had leagued themselves. A 'MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, said it had been observed in that House that there was no dif ference between the Tories and the Whigs. For his part, he thought there was a great difference between them.— They (the Whigs) had been induced to enlist under the banner of the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was firmly opposed to any reform in Parliament. It does not now, indeed, suit their convenience to take into consideration, or grant, Catholic Emancipation. They are afraid, on their own account, to agitate the question. He deprecated the practice of raising the Catholics at one time to the highest pinnacle, and at another dashing them down to the deepest despair—not by their open opponents, but by their friends. In this case the Catholics would be justified in going into open rebellion. Lord HOTIIAM said many cases had concurred to make up his mind to give his confidence to the Right Hon. Gentleman to whose discretion his Majesty had intrusted the formation of an Administration. He would say, how ever, that he highly respected those Gentlemen who had seceded from his Majesty's Government—and those were wrong who arraigned them either of cabal or conspiracy ; but although there might not be a conspiracy, there might have been a tacit understanding between those Gentlemen as to the course they were to pursue, in the interval be tween the melancholy event which deprived the country of the services of the Earl of Liverpool, and that period when the Right Hon. Gentleman was intrusted by his Majesty with the formation of an Administration. Can any man believe that during that interval no communication was made between them ? He thought, for one, he must come to the conclusion that there was a tacit understanding, though not a direct one, as to the course they were to pur sue. He had confidence in the present Government, and that confidence was not diminished by seeing those well tried friends around the Right lion. Gentleman. He could see no incongrity, no impropriety in the part taken by:those Gentlemen, when he saw but an ideal shade of difference between the moderate men on one side and on the other. He, therefore, could see nothing incongruous or extraordinary in those men joining heart and hand in fellowship to work together for the public good. A MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, said DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE LORDS. The Commission for the appointment of the Master of the Rolls, as Deputy Speaker, was read by the Clerk of the House. The Earl of LAUDERDALE wished that it should be explained by some Member of the Government, whether, by the commission they had just heard read, it was intended to make the Learned Person therein mentioned the Chair man of the House, for the purpose of hearing and deciding appeal cases, without, at the same time, creating him a Member of the House ? If such was the object of the Com mission, he thought it involved a strange anomaly, since, after having heard the case, and drawn up the judgment, that Learned Person (for whose talents and learning he entertained the sincerest respect) must put that judgment into the bands of a Peer to move that it be received by their Lordships. He (the Earl of Lauderdale) thought that the present Administration had been pledged to act upon the principles of Lord Liverpool's Administration. Now he wished to know whether this appointment was a pact of their performance of :the promise? There had been some time since a Deputy Speaker introduced into their Lord ships' House; but had the Noble Earl, then at the head of the Government, introduced among them a person who was ❑ot a Peer to fill that situation ? Certainly not—for it had been filled by Noble Lord whose decease they had recently had reason to regret. He wished, therefore, upon this subject, to know what were the intentions of the Government ? The LORD CHANCELLOR (who, as usual, left his I seat, but then, by mistake, spoke from the head of the Treasury Bench) said, that in answer to what had fallen from the Noble Baron, he begged to take upon himself the whole responsibility of the measure now introdJced to their Lordships' notice. He thought they would be of opinion that, considered as a temporary measure, and with respect to the business of the House and of the Court of Chancery, it was both prudent and proper. The Noble Baron had alluded to Lord Liverpool's Administration, and had spoken as if there was no precedent for this measure. Now he might have recolleetedand, if he pleased, no man could recollect such matters better than the Noble Baron—that there was a precedent to be found for it. However, without going into the circumstances of that case which furnished a precedent for the measure now adopted, it would, perhaps, be necessary, that he (the Lord Chancellor) should state what had been the course pursued in this instance, and what the reasons which.had induced him to adopt it. He would first recal to their Lordships the state of the business of the House on Appeals. There were now before their Lordships 70 Appeals from Scot land, and 40 from the Courts of England and Ireland. In the epurse of last Session the Noble Lord to whom allusion had been made, with all his talent for business, with all his quickness of perception and legal learning, and with all his perseverance and industry, and he (the Lord Chancellor) did not hesitate to affirm, that to his perseverance in the duties of his office he had fallen a victim, could not get through more than 40 of the Scotch Appeals. In this state of things what was the course pursued? It was pro posed, and he (the Lord Chancellor) again declared, that it was proposed un his advice and responsibility, to dispose of the Scotch Appeals by the assistance of the Learned Lord Chief Baron of the Court of Exchequer, who was intimately acquainted with the Scotch law, and who was to devote two days in the week for the hearing of the Scotch Ap peals. More than that time he could not devote to that object without injury to the suitors of his own Court. The assistance, therefore, of the Learned Individual named in the Commission just read would be required for one day in furtherance of the same object. It was absolutely neces sary that the Lord Chancellor should sit for two days iu the week, to decide English and Irish Appeals ; and he was quite sure that if Noble Lords referred to the business of the Court of Chancery, they would be convinced that the Lord Chancellor could not be spared from that Court more than two days in the week, without prejudice to the public interest. By the system thus proposed to be established, there would be five days in the week devoted to the hearing of Appeals. The Scotch Appeals would have three days employed upon them by two individuals of great knowledge and talent, and both well conversant with the laws of Scot land, and the Lord Chancellor would himself sit for two days in each week to dispose of English and Irish Appeals. This arrangement would give bins four days for the Court of Chancery—a period which, he trusted, would be found sufficient to keep down the business of that Court. He must say that it would not have been just towards him to launch him at once into the hearing of all the Appeals now before the House, and to require him, at the same time, to dispose of all the business now in arrear in the Court of Chancery.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lf their Lordships would grant bins the indulgence which, he thought, he might in justice require, he would pledge himself, before the next session, to perfect a plan, with reference to the business of his office, that should secure its performance regularly, faithfully, and accurately.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—The ar rangement now proposed was merely temporary ; and, not withstanding what had been said about Lord Liverpool's Administration, he might observe that it had had the good fortune to meet with that Noble Earl's approbation. The Earl of LAUDERDALE did not object to the ar rangement of the business itself, and did not wish to throw all the heavy duties of the Court of Chancery and of this House upon the shoulders of the Lord Chancellor alone ; but his objection was, that whoever might be appointed to take part in the performance of those duties should be en abled to do so as a Member of that House. He was sure there was none more capable, in every respect, than the Learned and Hon. individual whose commission had been now read ; but he objected to the anomaly of appointing an individual to try appeal cases there—an employment of the highest confidence—when that individual, after having formed his judgment, must propose it to a Peer before it could be received by the House. Lord HOLLAND said that, as a Member of this House, he rust object to Noble Lords using expressions which seemed to convey the idea that the Learned Law Lords sat in that House to try and decide Appeals. The right to try and decide Appeals was not limited to any one Noble Lord or to any particular Peers in preference to the rest, but re sidea in every Member of that House equally. They were all," Peers," and that one word showed that they were all equal. It was the duty of every man in that House, as a Lord of Parliament, to sit and assist in the hearing of Ap peals. If the Deputy Speaker or the Lord Keeper was, as by the constitution of that House he might be, a Com moner, should the King choose to appoint such a person CONSOLIDATION OF THE CRIMINAL LAW. Mr. PEEL adverted to what he had stated on a former evening, that he would postpone, from that day, the not : ',.‘ which stood relative to the Bills for Consolidating the Cri minal Law, in order to give an opportunity to the Gallant. General opposite (Gascoyne) to bring forward a question immediately interesting to the shipping concerns of the coun try,. He was now ready to do as he had promised. He had informed his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Sturges Bourne), who had succeeded him in the Home Department, that he was perfectly willing to take any- course with those Bills that might be consistent with his wishes.—(Hear, hear.)— He had told him that he would either continue the manage ment of them through their remaining stages in that House ; or if his Right Hon. Friend chose to take that duty on himself, he (Mr. Peel) would give him every assistance in his power.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—His Right Hon. Fri( ni thought that as he (Mr. Peel) had been occupied several months preparing the clauses, it would accord better with the public interest, as it would probably meet the general concurrence of the House, if he continued to superintend the Bills. He assured the House that he would undertake with the greatest pleasure, both now and atlany future pe riod, that or any other task, having for its object the simpli fication and consolidation of the Criminal Code, and the mi tigation of severity in the administration of the law.— Every exertion he could render for that purpose would be given with the same devotion as if he had remained respon sible for the conduct of the Home department.—(Hear, hear.)—He should not name a distant day for resuming the progress of those Bills, but one sufficiently distant to enable him to have the services, not only of his Right Honourable Friend, but of the Attorney and Solicitor-Ge nerals. He could not avoid adding the expression of the gratification he felt on having received from a Noble and Learned Lord (Tenterden)—at whose elevation to the Peerage he cordially rejoiced, and who had contributed, as he had before stated, so materially to his assistance in framing these Bills—a declaration, that if it pleased the House of Commons to send those Bills to the House of Lords, he (Lord Tenterden) would willingly take charge of them there. The Right Honourable Gentleman finally named Monday, the 21st, as the day to which be would postpone the orders standing for this evening. The Orders of the Day were then read for the further consideration of the Reports on the Larceny Laws' Con solidation Bill, the Remedies against the Hundred Bill, the Malicious Inquiries Bill, and the Larceny Laws' Re peal Bill, which are severally postponed till the 21st inst. SHIPPING INTEREST. General GASCOYNE, pursuant to notice, rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the present distressed state of the British ship-owners. He congratulated him self on having given notice of this motion so many weeks ago, that his bringing it forward could in no way be attri buted to political hostility, and he disowned any feelings of a personal nature. The subject involved the question of how far it was expedient to depart from the policy of our ancestors as handed down from generation to generation, and to adopt maxims altogether contrary to it. At the time England began to establish her system of navigation l a ws, she was only on a par with all the other nations, being as poor as the least civilised of them in general resources. Yet the Government of these times thought it proper to enact prohibitory laws. But when, under circum stances wholly different, with a heavy debt, which affect ed all the articles of life, and made open competition with less burdened countries actually impossible, it was proposed to repeal those laws ; this was, indeed, a subject for them to inquire into. The extent of this distress could not be denied, though the Right lion. Gen tleman might object to the causes assigned for it. Not only had it been represented by petitions to Parliament, but the Board of Trade had been petitioned, and the _Right lion. Gentleman had been assailed by particular applications without number. By papers which he the capital invested in shipping alone, without any of the traffic inci dental to building, rigging, and navigating ships, amounted to 7,000,0001. sterling ; and there had taken place upon that investment a diminution in value of 25 per cent. When this question came on at a past period, the views of the Hon. Gentleman had been greatly supported by the Gentlemen sitting on the opposition side of the House ; ono of them had called his Hon. Friends his Majesty's oppo sition—and with the additional force which had recently joined them, they might now be called " The King's Own" From that circumstance, complaints had scarcely obtained any inquiry, as the complainants were scarcely represented. The petition of the port of London to the Board of Trade had shown, that long previous to and at the time of passing the Reciprocity Act, and at the time of signing the treaties, reciprocity was perfectly impossible. In reference to the treaty with Prussia, the Hon. and Gallant Member read a passage from the British Vice-Consul in Prussia, object inv to the imp...st of a duty, not laid upon goods, but in a ...lore hostile shape, on British shipping. The conse quence was, that appeals come from all quarter; to the Board of Trade and the Hwise of Commons. A Coin mittee was granted, and a very able repOrt drawn up. lb. course taken upon that report by his Right Honourable