The Sun. — London, England, 1831-06-25 00:00:00

reports and ininouts otn different individuals on the subject Lord ELLENBOROUGH heartily disbelieved V e se rum:diem. • The conduct of the Noble and Learned Lord, during the whole, period of his life, had been such as not to of ,rd the slightest ground in his mind for a doubt upon the subject. TSut the Noble and Learned Lord should re.- collect, that although he (Lord Plunkett) knew that what had been stated with respect to his conduct was perfectly untrue, the individual by whom the statement had been made could not know that of his own knowledge. At the same time he must admit, and indeed declare that it was not consistent with the duty of any man to say that which might be injurious to the character of another, before he was well assured of the grounds on which he pro eeeded. He considered it to be a duty incumbent on the individual in question to investigate the mat ter further, and then distinctly to declare whether or not be adhered to the charge. If he found that be had been misinformed, be was bound to say so; if not, he was then, as a gentleman, and a Member of Parliament, hound distinctly to bring forward a public charge. While, however, in common candour to wards the Noble and. Learned Lord, he expressed this opinion, he must observe that he regretted that in the heat of debate the Noble and Learned Lord had charm:- t,rised the statement made by a Member of the House of Commons as part of a system of misrepresentation re sorted to by those who were in political opposition to his 'Majesty's present . Government. He roust say, not for himself alone, but for all with whom he had the honour to net, not only that they did not resort to any system of mis representation, but that they bad not been guilty of any misrepresentation whatever. Although he was sorry to be or:lined to give so pointed a contradiction to the expression of the Noble and Learned Lord, yet knowing something of what was done by those on that side of the House, he felt bound to say, that whoever asset ted that they resorted to a system of misrepresentation, in the words of the Noble and Learned Lord, asserted a colourless falsehood, The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in answer to one of the observations which bad just fatten from the Noble Lord observed, that every man roust be guided by his own sense of duty. His Hon. Friend was quite as fit a judge of what he ought to do as some othrr persons, and perhaps fitter.—Here the conversation dropped. TITHES. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY laid on the Tab!e of the House, a Bill for the Regulation of' thg Composition of Tithes.—Re id a first time. Lord DACRE expressed his intention of submitting to their Lordships a Bill, which would be in a manner sup plementary to that of the moat Rev. Prelate, to provide means for the equitable commutation of tithes. The Earl of MALMESBURY observed, that both these Bills involvei questions of immense importance. He trusted that they would not be pressed in the present tea aims, ht' that ample time would be given for the deliberate cons%deration which they would most undoubtedly require. E•,rl GREY remarked, that the subject to which the Bills in question referred was not only of immense im p,,rtance, hut of immense difficulty. It certainly was of the greatest importance to endeavour to establish some system respecting tithes (on the rights connected with which no one could entertain any doubt), which might have the effect of remedying the evils which were pro- (limed by the present system. It was a subject to which he would give his most attentive consideration. A com mutation of tithes, if it could be effected so as to settle the question finally and for ever, would certainly he most desirable. But, adverting to the extraordinary difficulties which would in the first instance oppose themselves to any satisfactory arrangement, the bias of his mind was to the belief, that the best way of ultimately striving at a satis factory commutation of tithes would be in the first place, to adopt such a Bill as that which had just bren presented by the most reverend Prelate for facilitating their compo sition. By the working of that Bill it would be seen what further proceeding might be advante.geously adored, Both of the Bills in question were of so much importance, and their provisions must be attended with so much diffi culty and complication, that he certainly very much doubted the expediency or practicability of carrying either of them through Parliament (luring the present Session. —(Hear, hear.) Perhaps the best course to pursue would be for the most Reverend Prelate and the Noble Lord so state the nature anti tendency of the proposed arrange- ments, and then to leave the subject to be considered in the interval before the commencement of another Session of Parliament. It was not for the sake of delay, or for the purpose of avoiding difficulties, even in the present Ses sion, when so many important matters were to be dis cussed, that he threw out this suggestion ; but because he was convinced that the postponement would enable their Lordships to come to a more satisfActory and effective conclusion upon the subject. There was one objection ;chic part of the present system of Church preferment, which he thought would, among other matters, be well worthy of the most Rev. Prelate's attention—he meant the system of a plurality of livings. It gave him sincere pleasure to see a meisure of improvement of this descrip tion originate where undoubtedly all measures of a similar character ought to originate; and he trusted that there would be no indisposition on the part of any of the heads of the Church to such a Reform as went! not be incon- sistent with their principles. He and the House were touch indebted to the most Rev. Prelate. He repeated that he would give the subject his most attentive conside ration, and be should be most happy if he found that he could conenr in a measure which, if it proved a satisfac tory one, would be pregnant with the highest benefits, both to the Church itself, and to the community at large. Lord DACRE observed that this measure would by no means be opposed to the B;11 introduced by the most Rev. Prelate. As to passing it or not this Session, that of course must depend on their Lordships. Ile hoped he was not pertinacious; but still he was desirous to lose as little time as possible. SCOTCH DIVORCE. The Earl of ELDON introduced the Bill to settle the law on the subject of Scotch divorces in cases of English marriage!. It was the same Bill wtich he lied laid on the table in the course of the last Parliament, in behalf of the Earl of Lauderdale. It was highly important, as he stated, that the law on this subject should be settled. At present, if a party or couple who had been married in England wanted to get divorced without delay, they scent to Scot land, and on residing there fur forty days, they became so far domiciled as to enable them to apply to the Scotch Commissary Court for a divorce ; and the Scotch Coln t claimed the jurisdiction to grant a divorce a tinculu ma trimonii. But it had been determined, in solemn argu. meat, by all the Judges of England, that an English mar riage could nothe set aside except by Act of Parliament ; and in a case where a man got a Scotch divorce in the way which be had mentioned, and then married again, he was indicted for bigamy and convicted, and sentenced to seven years' transportation. It was highly desirable that such a conflict ing state of law, on one of the most important of subjects, should not he allowed to exist any longer. He would enter wore fully into the subject on the second reading of the Bill ; and in the meantime he hoped their Lordships would allow it to be read a first time. The Bill was read a first time. FOREIGN POLICY. The Earl of ABERDEEN rose to call the attention of the House to the Foreign Policy of Ministers, as explained in the Speech front the Throne and in the Address to the King. It had been his intention to avail himself of the answer to the Address, which was brought down the day before, to advert to the topics to which he was now about to draw their Lordship' attention, but thought it right to postpone his observations till a Noble Earl (Grey) shou'd be present, whom he now saw in his pace. He was un wilLng to enter upon the subject during the long discus sion which took place the other night on the various topics touched upon in the Speech fr.-m the Throne and in the Address, more especially as the matter of his observations was rather foreign to those points which their Lordship appeared most disposed to discuss on that occasion. It was, indeed, natural, that when the Constitution was threatened with such extensive changes, their Lordship' ehiet attention should be directed to the domestic concerns and condition of the country. But still there were topics eonne cte!l with our foreign policy which touched very nearly the cha rac t er an d th e i n t e r e ,ts of the country, and it was of great import ance t h a t th ese should not be lost sight of, but, on the contrary, ofe kept prominently in vies. Minis ters, at the titne g upon their offices, had ostenta tiously held out the preservation of peace as one gran ! principle and object of their policy ; but certainly we could not look around at was at present passing in Europe without seeing cau,efo considerable apprehen sion that the general peace could not be preserved. No doubt his Majesty's Ministers desired Their decla rations on that head, and the ostentatiTs ce. they were put forth , p rove d that they werem resolved anner n Cn mten t ‘ O -h p ih r c e .. set Ye peace, if peace could possibly b e preserved consistently w ith a due regard to t h e hon o ur and interesto s ftli l7 cou ntry ; and perhaps they also p roved th at they felt that there was great danger of being forced into a war. Whether it was prudent or proper in the Ministers to make theSe de might perh ips be doubted; el tr.:thins in such a ma nner, but be the policy o f the Ministers as pacific as they pleased, it could not be more pacific than the policy of their Prede cessors. If there was one thing more than another which rendered the want of the services of the Noble Du the ke (Wellington) near him a loss to his country, it was powerfu l influence which he had for the preservation of peace by the character which he here in the estimation of foreign Powers. In this w.,y the Noble buke bail unri valled advantages for the preservation of peace over au) other man that could be appointed to the situation of Prime Minister. The agreement among the great Powers of Europe certainly did afford the best ground of hope of the preservation of peace, from the removal of mud' of the - . - - causes of war. His Majtsty's Alihisters had not told their Lordships much about what had been done in the con- ferenceS on the subject of Belgium, but they had told them what was the principle on which they were conducted. principle, they said, on which the bottfcrentes bad been con ducted, has been that $5l tint interfering with the right of the people or Belgium to regulate their internal affairs, and to establish their Government according to their own views of what may be most conducive to their future welfare and independence, under the sole condition, sanctioned by the practice of nations, and founded on the printiples of public law, that in the eierciae of thtt undoubted Eight the se curity of nei b ghbourihg States should not be endangered. This principle had his entire concurrence. But, at the same time, he might say that this eras to more than the principle which bad In Modem times been always re cognised by C.Mlized nations. There was no State in Eurts..p which pretended to interfere in the internal affair , of another, unless with a view to its own security. The five great Powers had before done exactly that which was now doing at the conferences of London. But still he might say that this same condition or princ'ple of inter ference for settnity was a very elastic one, and knight be alleged as a ground for interference to a very great extent. Suppose the Belgians thought proper to establish a Repub lican instead of a Monarthital form of Government, would this be reckthed consistent with the security of the neighlftring Powers ? The French Government, too, professed to act on the principle of non-interference ; but yet, he would a sk whether it had hot interfered so as to prevent the Belgian fivm choosing a certain Prince for their King, because that Prince happened to he a son of a Gel:feral who had become Emperor of the French ? He would ask whether, after they had actually nominated a Sovereign, they had not been prevented from Navin; that in dividual for their Sovereign, from an apprehension enter . tained at the conference; that, if he became the Belgian Sovereign, the security of the neighbow ing Powers would be endangered? He was far from blaming the proceedings of the five Powers at the conferences. He only meant to say that this principle of non-interference was one of a very accom- . . modating nature, and was what might be called, accord ing to a phrase that was very much in fashion at present, a quasi non-interference. But it was not for the purpose of animadverting on the principle thit he now intruded himself on the attention of their L9rdship4. He had, however, very serious apprehensions about the result of these conferences. He very much dreaded that the con- sequences would be highly injurious to the peace of Euro pean society. He found the five Powers employed in draw ing up, in a summary manner, articles of separation be tween Belgium and Holland. He did not mean to sty that these articles were unjust ; but so it was, that the five Powers had prepared nine articles of separation, which they held out to the parties concerned as fixed and irrevo c,ble, and as conditions which they must adopt. The King of the Netherlands, wishing to stand well with the five Powers, did accept them, but the Belgians not only did not accept but, on the contrary, returned them with insult. Neither of the parties were present when these terms were fixed. Ti e King of the Netherlands was no party, although he was to lose oae half of his domi nions. The five Powell; were bound to keep faith with him, and Set it SO happened that one of these irrevocable articles had been already revoked ; and, in short, there was reason to apprehend that these articles would still be made the subject of endless discussion. There certainly did ap• pear something extraordinary in these proceedings. When the conditions were returned by the Belgians, the five Powers at the conference fixed a particular day on or before which they must be accepted, and the Belgian Nlinister was called upon to accep► them within the limited period. The Minister di-obeyed the order, and then some proceedings followed, against which the King of the Ne• therlands protested. All this showed that the Five Powers, or, at least, that Great Britain, had not kept the great interests of the King of the Netherlands sufficiently in view. And then it was generally understood that a Prince particularly connected with this country was to be the future Sovereign of Belgium, if the arrangements for that purpose could be carried imo effect; and if that Prince should be placed in that situation, he was very ap prehensive that his particular connection with England would very much endanger our future relations with Hob i land. He considered this a matter of particular impor tance. He might here observe, that as the Speech and the Address had recognised the right of the Belgians to regulate their internal affairs in the manner which might appear to them most conducive to their own interests and welfare, some notice might also have b en taken of the rights of the King of the Netherlarads. No foreign nation was more worthy of our sympathy than Holland—a free, enlightened, and religious people, rallying round their King in a manner that was unparalleled even in the history of their own country. That nation ought certainly to have been noticed as deserving of countenance and support —(Hear.) He would at present say no m ,re on that head, as his of ject was merely to point out the dangers that might he apprehended from the re oceedings at these conferences. He proceeded in the next place to notice the manner in which the late proce. dings with re gard to Portugal had been mentioned in his Majesty's Speech, and he mill not help saying that the manner in which these occurrences had been adverted to was 416- ingenuous, and that the statement itself was somewha, erroneous. " A ser4s of injeries and insults (as the Speech stated) for which, notwithstanding repeated remonstrances, all reparation was withheld, compelled roe at last to enter a squadron of my Iket to appear before Lisbon, with a pere,nptory (brined of satisfaction. A prompt compliance with the demand prevented the neces sity of further measures ; bit I have to regret that I have not yet been able to re-establish my diplomatic relations with the Portuguese Government." Now, front this it would appear that the injuries complained of had been committed by the Government, and that the Government had refused satisfaction. But that was not the case.— The injury was not committed by the Government, and when such sitisfection was demanded it was not refused, although he admitted that it had been culpably delayed.— Indeed, the satisfaction ha I been in a great measure given before the squadron was sent out. But that most vexa tious delays had been interposed, he himself was perfectly well aware. Same all nuance ought to be in ide for the difficulties which the Portuguese Government had to con tend with ; and, urn the whole, he thought that the proceedings of Ministets with tegard to Portugal had been neither of a dignified character nor consistent with tie alliance between the two countries. A regret was expressed that his Majesty had not been enabled to renew his diplomatic relations with Pot tugal ; and it appear, d as if Ministers wished to put an end to the system which was acted upon by the Sovereign of that country. Now he did not stand there as the apo logist of the Sovereign of Portugal, but even if he had deserved all the vituperation which had been heaped upon him by the most absurd exaggeration, it was not for us to pretend to dictate to him as to the mode in which he was to conduct the internal affairs of his own dominions. We were to look to the stability of his Go vernment, and to bis power to execute the treaties which he made with us ; and as to the rest, it was for the Por tuguese themselves to prescribe to him how he should act, if they chose. He bad been Sovereign of Portugal now for three years with the full approbation of a great majo rity of his Portuguese subjects, and there appeared no reasonable ground fur apprehension that he would be die , placed by any intetual commotion. There was no fear of a change, for the Government possessed the affections of the people. It was clear that it did so;. for a Govern ment having no support from without, could not have existed unless it was satisfactory to the people of the country. He Was therefore quite at a loss to comprehend the ground of the reluctance on our part to acknowledge that Government. It would be much better to acknow ledge and renew our diplomatic relations with it, instead of persevering in our present injurious system. But he would ask what were the relations of France with Portu gal ? We heard of vessels captured, of expeditions sent, and of devastation threatened ; and he wanted to know what seas the relation in which France and Portugal stood with respect to each other ? These were matters which might very seriously affect the interests of the subjects of the Bt itisit Empire. British subjects had great privilege in Portugal, and great commercial advantages far exceed ing tho-e which they enjoyed in any other foreign country; and what did Portugal receive in return for all this? Protection. Portugal was to lie protected by thi country. He did not mean to say that Portu gal was to he protected or assisted in wagin. an unjust vier ;• but certainly that country de served all just protection from us in return for the greet commercial advantages which the British enjoyed in Per tat should eu tuga. When Portugal, then, had differences with foreign powtr s , th e i nterests o f B r i t i s h su bj ects wou ld be se rouslyth affected the ed it understande s ohe rtehfeorsei,tuonft situation great n import oncewhici Portugal stood with reference to France. The complaints grounds of complaint a sufficient cause of the French might have foundation ; but were the bound by treaties with Portugal, war? We were Portugal there was no treaty, and they 'Vera Rance and only by the common law of nations ; and altehrs'ougehnFreeted alight have sow.; reason to call for explanations, it was lifficult to conceive that she could have any ground for going to war with Portugal. But, at ail events, he hoped that Ministers were duly impressed with the serious injury which might be the consequence of thesedifferences. He hoped that they were ready to interpose their good offices and mediation in favour of Portugal. We were not bound to support Portugal in an unjust war, but Portugal had a right to our good offices and mediation. Betbre he .quitted this part or the subject, he would advert to an other matter connected with Portugal. He alluded to certain transactions which had taken place at Terceira and the western Portuguese islands. The people of whit was called the Refeney of Terceira, had seized a British vessel, for the purpose of an expedition to another island. Th e Captain whose vessel was seized was now in London, and was known to have made his complaint to Government. They had forced the Captains of other British vessels to make an agreement with them for the purpose of a hostile expedition into another island. The fact was undoubted. The expedition sailed, and troopswere landed from .British ships in the island of St. George's, and committed the most horrible excesses, certainly much more horrible than any that bad ever been ascribed to the present Sovereign of Portugal. They even massacred a great number of people in cold blood, as he was credibly informed. But by the way, what sort of reparation was to be got here ? Good God were these people to be allowed to carry on a barbarous and piratical war, and to rob and plunder the neighbouring islands with impunity? He asked again what reparation could be got from these people for the ex cesses which they had committed ? These people could not exist in their present situation without committing acts of piracy, and they would continue to commit acts of piracy as long as they were allowed to remain in posses sion of the island of Terceira. There were other subjects to which be might justly and properly have called the attention of his Majesty's Ministers, but he would say no more at present, except again to ask what reparation they expected to obtain from these people of the Berney of Terceira? Earl GREY—He did not find fault with the Noble Earl for not having made his observations on our foreign relations on the night when the Address was moved, as there were some other topics Which more immediately called for attention and discussion on that occasion. But . _ still he thought it would have been better to have intro duced the subject of the Belgian, Dutch, and Portuguese questions into the discussion than to have wasted the time in talking of illuminations and broken windows, and let ters written by Members of Parliament to their constituents and toasts given at dinners. The Noble Earl might have then stated his views of the foreign policy of the Minis— ters, and if that was not satisfactory to hisn, he ought not to have concurred in the Address to his Majesty. There was another preliminary observation which it might be proper to make before be came to the consideration of the particular points to which the Noble Earl had adverted.. He did not mean to question the right of tie Noble Eul to discuss the foreign policy of the country or the conduct of Ministers, and yet it was a tight that ought to be exercised with a great deal of caution and discretion ; if ever there was a time when that discretion was called for, it was the present. Ministers had come into office at a time when they had a most difficult duty to perform, and that difficulty would be greatly increased by the agitation of these questions. It ought to be remembered that this was a period of great personal excitement—a period in which popular feeling was strongly alive—a period of great public agitation. It was a time when the greatest jealousy was entertained. by Rations about the interference of foreign Powers; and the minds of the people were kept in such a state of effervescence, that a slight addition to the causes of agitation would raise the excitement to such a pitch as to lead them to overwhelm their own Govern• ments. These were circumstances that ought to be con. sidered ; and the Noble Lords on the other side ought to take care not to manifest their hostility to the Government in such a way a way as most seriously to endanger the best interests of their country. In such a state of things Ministers claimed the confidence which was nee, ssai y to enable them to perform their duty in the manner best cal culated to promote the public interest ; and they hoped that they would receive that confidence from Parliament and from a generous public, without having the peace and hest interests of the country put in hazard by poisonous arrows being scattered in the dark to wound her to the heart. He appealed then to the House, whether Minis ters ought net to be allowed to discharge their duties without any premature disclosures upon the responsibility under which they acted ? Sooner or later they must, no doubt, give an account of their conduct, and answer for it. In the mean time, premature disclosures would be at tended with nothing but mischief. The Noble Earl said that the present Ministers had talked in a most ostenta tious manner of their desire to preserve the peace of the country. He certainly did venture to say that the pre servation of peace was a great object with Ministers, but lie was not aware that he had said so in any ostentatious manner. As to the superior advantages which the Noble Duke had enjoyed for tle purpose of the preservation of peace, he certainly did not mean to enter into any comparison of the merits or demerits, advantages or disadvantages, of the present Government as compared with the last; but while he acknowledged the great services of the Noble Duke in the field, lie certainly bad no great opinion of the services which the Noble Duke had rendered as a nego dater. In his opinion, the difficulties and dangers among which they were now placed arose from the very errone ous principles on which the nations of Europe had been settled at the close of the war. It was by the unfirrtu. nate diplomacy of that period that the seeds were sown of those agitations which had now sprung up in so fertile a crop. This was no new opinion of his, for it was the opinion which he had all atong entertained and stated. But still his Majesty's Ministers did entertain good hopes that they would be enabled to preserve the peace of tire country. Having now disposel of these preliminary questions, he would proceed to answer some of the Noble Lord's ob servations with respect to Belgium. To the principle on which the conferences on the subject of the affairs of that country had been conducted, the Noble Earl - (Aberdeen) expressly stated that he had no objection. The principle of not interfering with the right of the people of Belgium to regulate their internal affairs, and to establish their Go vernment according to their own views of what may be most conducive to their future welfare and independence, suhject to the conditions sanctioned by the practices of na tions, and founded on the principles of public law ; that in the exercise of that, their undoubted right, the security of neighbouring States should not be endangered ; then the principles laid down distinctly and plainly in his Ma jesty's Speech (ruin the Throne, the Noble Earl stated to have his complete and entire concurrence. But then the Noble Ertl, having thus stated his concurrence in the principle, then proceeds to ask, what is the security to he found for neighbouring Stares;—what tire the principl es which are to he enforced so that their rights may not he endangered?—(Hear.) Being thus - questioned by the Noble Earl, Ire would say at once, without hesitation, that no form of internal Government which a nation might choose to adopt could, in his opinion, have that effect, or justify the interference of other and neighbouring States. There might, he would admit, be some danger to the established institutions of other States, if the Belgians determined to establish a republic ; but he was prepared to say at once, and he gave tire Noble Earl all the advantage he felt he might derive from it, that if the Belgians had resolved to place- themselves under a republican form of Government, he for one never could have given his con sent to any interference for the purpose of preventing them.—(blear, hear, hear.) Undoubtedly, all nations • had a right to choose their Sovereign, or the form of Government under which they choose to place themselves, witeout the least controul or attempt at dictation on the part of others ; but, like all other rights, even this power placed in nations was subject to limitations and restrictions. 'Tuffs uteres ui aliena non heelas was a maxim in private life which must be considered applicable also to the affairs of nations.—(Hear, hear.) This was a principle which had been acted on over and over again in the history of Europe. To go no further, he might ask on what else were founded the wars of the Succession? Wiry the whole of the long contests of that period were founded on the principle that the Crowns of France and Spain should not be allowed to devolve on the same head, so as to create a predominance of strength which would en danger the integrity of other States, and disturb the ne cessary balance of power in Europe. It was an attention to this principle which had re g ulated the proceedings with respect to religion. The people of that country were at liberty to choose whom they pleased ; but it was required of them by the principles of international law, that they should not make choice of a Sovereign whose elevation might affect the safety of other States, or tend u:timately to affect the interests and the tranquillity of Europe.-- (Hear, hear ) Now he really must say that in all the propositions and arrangements of the Government with respect to the settlement of Belgium, nothing had come to his knowledge, nor had he seen anything prepared in vio lation of the principles which in these matters regulated r.lse position of nations. The Noble Earl had, however, stated a variety of other objections to the course pursued oy the Government, and the manner in which they were thus brought before the public formed, he (Lord Grey) conceived, another and still stronger proof of the difficul ties and embarrassments which those engaged in these aegociations had to surmount in their progress to a satis factory conclusion. At present he must, as he bad .sald eefore, content himself with begging to defer any further explanations until the negociations were brought to a con- lusion. When that time came, whether those negot ia- Lions terminated, as be hoped they would, with com plete success, in the establishment of the peace of Europe on a permanent basis, or whether they unhappily had a different result, be was bound to ten der an account of the proceedings of the Govern ment, and would he prepared to explain and to justify, and defend the course it bad pursued. There was, how ever, a point of of taken by the Noble Lord which he could not allow to pass without some ob , ervation. The Noble Earl, in the course of his speech, intimated an opi nion that the Government had not attended sufficiently to he interests of one of the Sovereigns of Europe (the King of Holland.) In compliance with the declaration he bad already made, he would not follow the Noble Earl into the question of whether the Powers represented in the con ferences had or had not attended sufficiently to the int-- rests of the King of Holland in the negotiations between his Majesty and the Belgians ; but he might state, that the perfect preservation ti the right and privileges and in dependence of the kingdom of Holland was an object of the first importance to this country, not only on account of the long and intimate connexion which bad subsisted between England and Holland, to the great advantage of both), but also, on account of the advantages which all Europe derived from the integrity and independence of Holland, as a State, in the maintenance of the general system, which it had been found conducive to the general welfare to support.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever form of Government the Belgians might ul imately adopt, he be lieved that it would be found that the perfect security of the kingdom of Holland had occup;ed ita full share of the attention of the other Powers of Europe; although he certainly did hope that neither party woul.l continue to make too material an insistance on points which might stand in the way of a speedy-and satisfactory arrangement of the matters in dispute.—(Hear, hear.) Sonic allusions ba , l been made to the Prince 011 Wl.= it was, at present, contemplated to bestow the Crown of Belgium. On that point he would say a very few words. With that high sense be entertained of the Prince of Saxe Coburg's cha racter—with that confidence which he felt in his good sense, his moderation, his strength of mind, his abilities for governing, and his enlightened views of policy—he was laJur.d to declare, that if the negotiations terminated in the elevation of the Prince to the Throne of Bel gium, it would be a most fortunate circum stance for the country which be would he called on to govern.—(Hear, hear.) That course had been adopted by the Belgians, independent however of us, or any in• fluence exercised by us. He thought that they had made a good choice when they elected the Prince ; but the choice was mask in perfect independence of the Govern ment of England, or of its exertions to carry the resolu- tion into effect.—(Hear.) And no one word as to the danger which might be apprehended from the feelings or prejudices of the Prince as a Sovereign. These appre hensions of danger might in his (Eirl Grey's) opinion, be very safely discharged from the minds of the Belgians; for he was satisfied that the Prince, if circumstances turned out so as to enable him to accept the throne of Be!- gium, would prove himself neither a French nor an Eng lish, but a true Belgian Sovereign, anxious only to pro mote the welfare of Belgium, and sensible that he was charged with the duty of maintaining its interests, and supporting its power and importance and independence in the general system of Europe.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Some observations had been made with respect to the conduct of the British Plenipotentiary disobeying the instructions o the powers of the conference. On that subject he would not enter now, for the reasons he had already stated, as well as others ; but thus much he would say, that the French Plenipotentiary had felt it necessary and expedient to adopt the same course as the English ; and that he be lieved, when the matter came to he investigated at the proper time, it would he most satisfactorily explained. Thus murk would add, that a more honourable, more enlightened, more ta'ented Nobleman, or one who had proved himself better qualified to conduct a difficult and delicate negociation, never was employed in the service of his country.—(Hear.) He would say, moreover, that lie and the Government were perfectly satisfied with him con duct in tl.e matter to which the Noble Earl referred ; and iF he had been guilty of some disobedience, he had taken the re-ponsibility - of that act on himself, under very diffi cult circumstances, and with the hest possible motives; and he had acted in the emergency, which he thought rendered it justifiable, with that firmness and discretion which became the representative of a great power on such a trying occasion. —(Hear.) He now came to the severer part of the charges of the Noble Earl ; be meant that part in which he introduced some comments on the decla rations with respect to Portugal in his Majesty's Speech ; and affirmed his belief, that the assertions of the Speech were not true—that they were not borne out by the facts. --(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl says, that there were no series of insults and injuries received at the hands of the Government of Portugal which could justify the course adopted by the Government. He (Lord Grey) had heard this with the more surprise, because, if he recollected right, some of the Noble Earl's own despatches had spoken of both insults and injuries received from the Government of Portugal.—( Hear, hear.) Surely the many violations of treaties— the impcs:tion of duties cont ary to express sti pulations between the two nations—the inflicting illegal fines en British subjects—and the arbitrary and oppressive conduct of the police, who derived its authority directly from the Government—surely these- and other outrages, with all demands of restoration of satisfaction respectively refused, formed a sufficient justification for the measures at last adopted by the Government of this country. But then the Noble Earl seemed to be of opinion that repara tion was not refused. That was not, however, the ex piession used in the Speech. The word was withheld.— (Lord Aberdeen said across the table, that he used the ex pression culpably delayed, but not refused.) He took the expression of the Noble Earl,and was prepared to show that all satisfaction had been rot only culp (bly delayed, but al together withheld, until a peremptory demand for that purpose was sent out to Lisbon, with the means of en forcing it in the event of it refusal, and all further Dego ciations or complaint rendered thereby unnecessary. The Noble Earl, however, remarked on the fact that the British Government had not since that time been enabled to re-establish its friendly relations with that of Por tugal ; and he asked, if that event coal not take plait: at present, when could they hope it would come to pass, when it was well known that the sovereignty of l)on Miguel had been now for neatly three years more safe than any other in Europe, as it must be manifest to all, that the present ruler of Portugal could not hate continued to maintain his authority it he did not possess the affections of his subjects?—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Eid observed, it was true that he did not stand forward as the advocate of Don Miguel ; but yet it was something in Earl characterised this Su his favou p t r a in ev e l e mi a t pi clue stbleivNin''gthiaend reigning in the hearts and affections of his subjects.—(flear, and a lugh.) The Noble Earl called on the Government to recognise Miguel, and establish diplomatic relations with him ; but although the lase Government, of which the Noble Earl was a member, had been for two years and a half in office, they (lid not establish relations with Portugal. On the con trary, they distinctly stated they could not do so, but they looked forward to the time when Miguel might, by the passing of an Act of amnesty for political offences, enable them to consult the interests of both countries by re suming their friendly relations. He (Lord Grey) recol lected well having, at the time this declaration was made, pointed out the inconvenience to which it would subject the Government in practice, if, after having recognised Miguel on such conditions, be afterwards failed to fulfil them. IPe pointed out to them the possibility of some of the refugees from Terceira returning under the gua rantee of Great Britain, and being disappointed in their expectations. He had pointed out the impossibility of insisting on the performance of conditions which were to be fulfilled in the jurisdiction of Miguel himself, and he had been answered by the Noble Duke, as plainly as words could convey his meaning, that, under such circum stances, they could employ remonstrances and friendly advice, but would not be justified in doing anything more. He (Lord Grey) did not mean to contend that if the worst Government on earth was chosen by the people, and able to fulfil the usual relations established be tween nations, that the Government would be justified in refusing to establish them accordingly; but the Noble Earl had not assumed that the Government of Miguel was ca pable of fulfilling these relations, for the amnesty which formed the ground on which the Noble E trl would have consented to recognise Miguel had not been granted to that h o ur. The conduct of the police was more tyrannical and oppressive than ever, and the prisons were crowded with th.ir victims. He might, therefore, assume the pri vilege of putting to the Noble Earl the question the Noble Earl had put to him, and ask him, under what other cir cumstances did he look for the power to recognise the Go vernment of Miguel ?—(Hear. ) :Now, one word with re spect to the relations at present subsisting between Portu gal and France. He was g la p n r d ep aarneti Portugal, i which l tadnit that .ie h did there we re treaties between England not subsist between Portugal and France, and that Eng land was bound by these treaties to yield to Portugal her countenance and assistance when an emergency required it. H e was ready, also, to admit the necessity of to eservings for the benefit of both countries, all friendly relations with Portugal ; but, at the same time, he denied that England was bound by any treaty to assist Portugal in a matter which plainly arose out of her own misconduct, in a gross s k e w of justice. England had 'demanded reparation for ;njories, and when thatNsparation was, aeco4ng to the Noble Earl, culpably delayed, it had been enforced. Im mediately afterwards complaints were made on the part of the French Government of nearly similar outrages. Did the Portuguese Government attempt to palliate those of 'ttees or explain them? No ; on the contrary, the French Consul, who made remonstrances and demands on the part of his Government, was informed, that as his functions ,vere wholly commercial, and his demands related to politi cal matters, they could not be listened to, and no answer wou ld, therefore, be given. The French then proceeded, as tie Government of this country had done before it, to enforce its demands; and he would now ask the N:thle Earl, whether he would have said to a Government like that of France, and under the same circumstances, " You are proceeding to enforce your demands against Portugal, as we have done, but we prohibit you to do so, and will de cide the matter for you ?" Would that Government, be would ask, acquiesce in such a course? Would the Govern ment of this country listen for a moment to such a demand or prohibition or pretension on the part of France ?—( Hear. ) This was the dangerous position in which Portugal was placed. The Noble Earl, however, asked if there was war between France and Portugal ? He (Lord Grey), in an swer to that question, must say, that be did not consider an order for reprisals a declaration of war ; but whether thecourse pursued by Portugal led to war or not, he haul no doubt, if an opportunity offered, that the Government of this country would lose no occasion of doing everything that could be done in the way of advice and mediation, in order to hying about an atnicable settlement. This much he would add, that the Government of this country never would look w;th indifference on any event which would affect the intei,rity or ind.pendence of Portugal ; and trusting that the Portuguese Government would speedily set itself right with France by offering the reparation she was entitled to demand, he could assure their Lordships that the Government were at all times anxious to prt serve the faith : of treaties, and to secure the prosperity of Por tugal. The Noble Earl, passing to the question Ter, e:ra, described the conduct of the Government est ddislied there in terms on the justice of which he could not then pro nounce an opinion ; and complained of the attack made by it on the neighbouring islands, and of the manner in which it was carried on. Now did the Noble Earl mean to say that the Government of this country was really bound to inter fere for the purpose of preventing that attack? The Noble Earl spoke as if the honour of England bad been tar nished, by permitting the vessels of its subjects to be seized for the conveyance of the troops on that occasion ; and be spoke of the Government of Terceira deriving its support from piracy. If it were true that that Government practised piracy, is was the duty of this and every other Government to put it down ; but he confeKed he was icmorant of any of the events mentioned by the Noble E 721-1, until he heard them in that House; and having sent to the Foreign Office to inquire, he had just received the following answer :—" A Captain of a vessel has made representations on the subject to the Foreign Office, but many of the facts are positively denied, and the whole case i 3 under consideration." lie thought it could scarcely be denied, that there was nothing in thi4 which showed that the honour and interests of England were not steadily maintained.—(Hear, hear.) He had now stated to their Lordships all that was is his power to communicate, without prematurely and perniciously enter • ing into the examination of negeciationa which were still pending, and the issue of which might be seriously affected by discussion in that House ; but he repeated, that lie could not shrink from the fullest investigation, when his duty to his Sovereign, and a due regard to the honour and interests of the country, permitted him to enter on it.— He imp:ored their Lordships, however, to consider the de licate and difficult situation in which the Government was placed, when it required this indulgence with the elements or revolution so spread around them, that the slightest seark might kindle such a general conflagration as would involve the institutions of this country and of Europe iu the greatest hazard of ultimate d struction. One word he would add with respect to France. He agreed with the Noble Earl that it was of the greatest importance to the interests of the world that the present Government of France should be settled on a secure foundation, for he be lieved, in common with the Noble Eirl, that it was sin cerely desirous to fulfil its engagements with all other States—to promote the prosperity of France, and to pre serve the peace of Europe. It was, therefore, extremely desirous at the present moment, not to do or say anythiag through which that Government might be either forced, by public opinion, to adopt a different course of policy, or overturned in its resistance to it ; for in such a misfot tune the balance of power could no longer, from the hand into which the Government must then fall, be effectually pre served, and the consequence would probably be the com mencement of a devastating and destructive war.—(Hear. ) Under such eicumstances, these discussions were, in his opinion, most prejudicial, and ought, if the Government of this country was considered worthy of any confidence, to be carefully avoided.—( Hear. ) At the conclusion of the Noble End's speech there wete hard and general calls for the Duke of WELLINGTON. His Grace then rose and observed that he cert duly did not wish to prolong the discussion, but he thought he was bound to say one or two words in reference to the. obser vations cast on the policy of his Government at the time he occupied the station now filled by the Noble E (Grey). Before he did so, however, he would take leave to observe that his Noble Friend (Aberdeen) was quite justified in the course he had pursued iu commenting on the language of the Speech from the Throne, and in warning the Government of the dangers it incurred in deaarting from the principles it hail laid down for itself in the regulation of its foreign policy. The Noble Earl (Grey) had complained of the difficulties in which he found himself placed at the time he took office. Far be it from hint (the Duke of Wellington) to depreciate the difficulties of that situation, for he had experienced their full force; but what he wished their Lordships to understand was this, that the difficulties the Noble Earl complained of were not due to him or any of his Majesty's servants. They grew out of the unfortunate events of the month of July, August, and September—events which it was beyond the power of human foresight to prevent, except by those who ruled in the countries where they took plate . His Majesty's Government of that time did not, hoe ever, applaud these events.—(Hear, hear.) They fore.aw the difficulties and mischiefs to whirls they would give ri c. They laid down a plats to be pursued with respect to them, and he was gratified to be able to sty, that that plan had been put sued by the Noble Earl and his Govern ment since it cline into office ; and as far as they had hitherto gone, he might add, with the best success.— (Hear, hear). It was impossible, however, to understand fully the course of policy which we should pursue, without looking beck a little at that which had hitherto been adopted.—(Hear, bear). The policy of this country had always been to keep Belgium out of the hands of France, and none had advocated that course more stre• nuously than the Noble Earl himself and the Noble Baron (Holland) who sat behind him. His Noble Friend who conducted the foreign relations of the country at the con clusion of the general peace (the late Lord Londonderry) had taken the same view of this question, and the whole of the negociations which he entered into, and of the treaties he took such pains to conclude, had that object in view as necessary to the paramount rrpcse of Europe.— And what wits the consequence ? Why, that this country and Europe has enjoyed since 1814, with the short interval of war caused by the invasion of Napoleon, a longer period of peace titan it has known almost for centuries.—( Hear, hear.) That period of tranquillity was broken up by the events of July in France, and of August and Septembo . in Belgium.—(Hear.) He did not seek to qualify his expressions with respect to these events. He would not qualify them further than by expressing his conviction that the situate-n of the countries which those events affected was, at that time, the best for the people them • selves, as well as the fittest to preserve their internal tranquillity, and to maintain the peace of Europe.— (Hear, hear.) Unfortunately, however, that state could not be subsequently restored, and the Powers of Europe being called on to interfere in Belgium, an armistice was proposed between the parties then engaged in hostilities ; and, at that time, commenced those difficulties which the late Government had foreseen at the moment the events took place. He entirely approved of all the steps taken from that time to this, in order to give that security to Belgium which Europe had a right to require. He en treated the Noble Earl to persevere in the course he had so ably pursued ; and he implored him not to depart from his principles, bat to act in a spirit of perfect cordiality with France and the Allies. If he did so, there could be no doubt that he would overcome ail difficulties, and achieve the settlement of the affairs of Europe, with honour to himself and the highest advantage to his country.(Hear.) With respect to Portugal, he believed it would not be in the power of England (however much the injunctions of treaties and the interests of both countries lay in the same direction) to defend her in the manner which the existing treaties enjoined ; b ut l ie thought it became the duty of the Government of this country, that all doubts respecting the acknowledgment of the present Sovereign should be put an end to, and the more so, as there could be no question that an invasion of Portugal by the French would , under present circumstan ces, ' involve the Peninsula in a general confltgration. He entreated the Government to consider, too, that this would be the re sult at a time when Spain, as far as lie could lea, n, was and, he believed, of ge neral prosperity. The question of disputed suc cession had in a state of pe rfect tranquillity, been for some time, a, it was will known, put an end to by Din Pedro declaring t hat he possessed arms and re sources to vindicate the rights of his daughter, and now that he no longer possessed power, and had lost . his own kingdom, and the prosi►ect of any attempt to recover Por tog it at an end, it became more then ever the duty of the Government of this country to get over the difficulties which had surrounded the question, by bringing Portugal into the society of nations, and rendering her ava.l ibis far the purposes of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) He recom mended the Government, therefore, to acknowledge Miguel at once, and, by doing so, induce the other Powers of Europ to follow their example. As to the st ite of the Western Isles, he would merely observe, that unless some thing was (Witt to put an end to these practices, there could be no security for the other Powers of Europe. He was sorry to have troubled their Lordships at such length, but he felt that what he had said was due to the station he had formerly occupied. and he thanked them for their attention.—(Herr, hear.) The Earl of MELBOURNE laid on the table a report on the subject of the duties of Magistrates in Ireland, and gave notice of his intention to move, on Monday next, for leave to bring in a Bill to revise and renew the appoint ment of Magistrates in that kingdom. Adjourned at a Quarter past Eight. HO USE OF COMMONS, JUNE 21. At Four o'clock the SPEAKER took his seat, at which time the House was unusually full. The gallery was . , crowded with persons anxious to near the inq;ortant question of Reform, which was fixed to ba brought on this evening. Several new Members were sworn in. After which the House was occupied a considerable time in receiving pri vate Bills and reports of Committees (in'private Bills. Mr. C. DUNDAS brought in a Bill for amending and' altering the several Acts fir making navigable the river Kennett, which was read a first and second time; also a Bill to alter the line of the Gloucestershire railway, which was read a first and second time. Mr.LITTLETON brought in a Bill for settling disputed tithes in the parish of Ashton-under-Lyne, by the pay- went of a certain sum, which was reed a first time. Lord SIANLEY brought in a Bill to amend and en large the sevcral Acts relating to the Bolton and Leigh railway, which was read a first and second time. Mr. JOHN FOLEY brought in a Bill for erecting a County Ha!l, Courts of Justice, and for affording accjrn tnodation to the Judges of Ass , ze, in the county of Wor- cester, which was real a first time. Mr. EWART obtained leave to bring in a Bill for erect- ing a new churvh at Liverpool, to be called " The Church of St. Ilri.lret." Mr. I'ORTMAN brought in a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to the highway 4 in England, which was re id a first time and crdered to . be printed. Mr. BURGE moved that an address be presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty would be pleased to order certain Bills, passed by colonial Legislatures, to be laid be fore the House. _ . . . . Mr. O'CONN ELL presented a petition from son 8 parishes in Wexford, praying that their rights might b respected in the proposed Refirm BM. The lion. Member then presented a petition from Trate aglinst the grant to the Kildare- street Society. The peitioners stated that they had built Ncho44 in that town, in which 1,000 children we re being educate" gratuitously. Mr. WM. BANKES presented a petition front the Mayor, hurgesee:;, and householders of the borough of Ma, thorough against the .Reforen Bill ; the petition was agreed to at n public meeting. Mr. LONG WELLESLEY asked the Hon. Member whether this was the petition which was to have been presented last Sssion. Mr. BANKES—It is. Mr. L. WELLESLEY observed that if he had been aware of that, he would most certainly hive felt • it his duty to argil himself of some instruptions which he had received relitivo to the manner in which . . . UtIA petition Lad been got up, and on its being presented now he wEs taken entirely by surprise. ife had been infoluid that the meeting at which this petition was got up was concocted by some persons belonging to the Cor poration, awl that so far font' the petition containing the sentiments of the inhabitants of the borough, it was di rectly opposed to it. lie (Mt. W.) had heard that there was a charitable foul in that town under the controut of the Corporation, and that many persons were threatened to be deprived of benefit from it if tiwy did not sign the petition. The gtestast proportion of the inhabitants of Marloorough were decidedly in favour of Reform, and even a very large portion of the tenantry of a Nob:e Lard, who was suppo..d to be a proprietor of the borough, were in favour• of the Reform Bill. He was theref ire justified in saying that this petition did not express the sentiments of the inhabitants of M elbarough. Mr. W. BANKES was at a loss to conceive why the Noble Marquis, \rho had been introduced by the Hon. ➢le:nber, was so introduced, but he must confess that he was not surprised at it, be:anse of the calumny that had been sn indu , triously circulated to the prejudice of the Noble Marquis. With regard to 011 e part of the Hon. Member's charge against this petition, the signatures themselves were a su ffi,.-ient answer to it ; it was signed by 140 of the most opulent, if not the must respectable, inhabitants of Mt:libitum:oi. Oat the motion that di? petition be read, _ . Mr. L. WELLESLEY said the Hun. Member bad not yet given a!eply to his statement ; he begged to ask the bon: Mewber whether he was not aware that at the meeting at which the petition was agreed to, it was stated that persons had been threatened with the loss 31 their share of the charitable fund if they did not sign the petition ; and whether a person who was the bead waiter at the great inn t Marlborough, was not produced, to state that he had been so threatened. He (Mr. W.) had not uttered any cedumny against the Noble Lord alluded to, the calumny was on the other side ; in deed if the Hon. Member knew what he (Mr. W. ) had stated was fact, he was guilty of more than calumny in denying it.—(Cries of older.) Mr. BANKES was aware that such a story wos in circulation, but he had been informed it was entirely false. The only fault he imputed to the Honourable Member was, that before he mole such charges be did not make the necessary inquiries. The petition was real, aml ordered to be printed.- Mr. ESTCOURT presented a petition from the Chan cellor; masters, and scholars of the University of Oxford, against the Reform Bill, unless it underwent considerable modifications. Tile petitioners stated that if the proposed Bill was to be the same as was brought forward last sea ' sion, it was their deliberate opinion that many of its pro visions were of a very dangerous tendency. They stated that they had never withdrawn their confidence from the House of Co:nmons; if Parliament should think it wise to alter the system of representation in a more moderate manner they would offer no opposition to it, but they were of opinion that various wise laws might be introduced to abate the cor ruption that prevailed at the electien of Members to serve in Parliament, but they received with alarM the reduction or material alteration of the numbers in this House. They also deprecated the giving the franchise to such a , huge :lumber of persons who held small properties, and they prayed that some more moderate alteration might be The Hon. Member considered the petition en titled to great consideration, as coming from a - highly talented and learned body of individuals, who were not supposed to be affected by local connections or prejudices. The petition was then read, and. ordered to be printed. Mr. HUGHES (we believe) brought in a Bill to.pre vent the application of corporate property to the expences of electing Members to serve in Parliament, which was read a first time. CHOLERA MORBUS. Mr. BARING moved that an humble address be pre sented to his Majesty, that his Majesty may be graciously'_ pleased to order to be laid before the House copies of a ll the documents and information that had been received by Government upon the subject of the infectious disca , c that had been desolating so many pats of the east of Europe. The Hon. 11Ieuther thought it was highly neces sary that the House should have this information, and that the public might have the advantage of a gene ral discussion thereon. Mr. WARBURTON seconded the motion. He con sidered that in this production would be included the copy of any opinions or plans which the Board of Health may have submitted to the Government, and that it would also appear whether any of the individu tis composing the Board of Health had any personal knohiedge of the dis ease, or had had any opportunity of treating it. Mr. P. THOMPSON was sure the Government could have no hesitation in granting the production. He was as certain that that production would tend more to allay the f.ars of many, than any thing he could say. He lved. however, the Hon. mover would have uo objection to alter the terms of the motion from all copies to extracts' otherwise the production would include copies of a Nast r number of documents, a great part of which were nel connected with the question. Mr. HUME considered it necessary that all the o pinions that' had been given, and every thing else relating to the subject, should b e pro d uce d. H e was very d es i rous of ascertaining the extent of experience and pretensions of those composing the Board of Health. There might be persoll' there giving opinions who had never seen the disease' he meant the Indian or Russian cholera, either in this of any other country, whilst there were in this town Irons fi fty to Rixty pew) of the disease, am who may not have . . eir information Mr. ROBINS( n t relax in which they had of preventing the this country. After a few w tl;e motion was origind terms or r at that moment in COM The CHANCE] that the whole He _ The SPEAKEI for she Supply h,l Lord JOHN IN on the The Chief Cler jesty's Speech rela Lord JOHN I Purpose .of prop Ineut a measun eulated to mainta Crown, the author the rights and lit propose this meas took place on a Ikue6t of a patien Planation which l Principle of the RH thought it f•xped en this occasion g to thought,hn that purpose. repent th ose s d or e si r n . e i v g e gt : . the ridicule of a p w e been, I fee Majesty's Minista consequence of th hear, hear)—nor position of the m sentation and I sought ta be di position, which great ta'ent and I roux weapons wi might impute to that of his coned powerful as they have prevented People from punt to those who love and to all wlr) at the reople.— ( 1 Sovereign to lit become me in Proceed any fu h'ne much I ath a all praise an, Evglmd.—(Lou 'Oefence to ally so highly sanctio Nation of his 31 pendently, that devotedness of they thought w example which the latest genera Sir, it has been governed not b hear hear.) If their country, 1 out of love to a zeal unequal hiasto, which their own pea • patriotism °llly in the to giv e up all tl '•fferell to theu in which competent I ill. LaneAs 38th of t there was n Member col from povert was constit htTs consul tun e to tin or tlispens4 county °vet to send the fore, be see that nothin fystetnatic However, 1 Henry the 1 -JPoo look tebedule Places wh of time; of borougi of the coup dots to sen Feteed it n it prove, ?vise to (Hi included h No w I do inure i■ o