The Sun. — London, England, 1825-05-11 00:00:00

the vien , order of reasoning. The friends of that measure ad vocated a great principle, and those who opposed it supported the. exception to that principle—and after legislating in this- Way for thirty or forty years, could they now affirm that they kid pl ace d Ireland in a situation in which we could rely on nne loyalty and fidelity of its inhabitants ? The course pur sued with respect to the Roman Catholics was something like that which hitherto had been adopted with regard to f , Artign trade. Whenever a proposition was made to reduce tne duty on importation, some one immediately rose and ex cleimed—" See at present, notwithstanding the high duties and restrictions, to what an extent smuggling prevails—if you reduce them it will extend still further." In like manner, whenever the reduction of the Distillery Duties In Ireland was named, a similar alarm broke forth of the rapid production of illicit spirit which such a step would generate. But when his Right Honourable Friends dared to make the experi ment in spite of these prognostics, the decrease of smuggling' end illegal distillery instantly ensued. Instead of wasting time .with a symptom, they struck at the root of the disor der—they .removed the cause of the evil, and it vanished.— So he. would say of the Roman Catholics—if they are disloyal, remove the occasion of it—if the existing laws produce disaf fection, take that as the ground to operate from, and rescind those laws—if the Catholics indulged in illegal- proceedin g s. deprive them of all r eason or pretence for doing so ; and if they gave their confidence and support to an Association which it became the duty of Parliament to suppress, let not the . House, by a pertinacious adherence to the policy which created that Association, perpetuate in the hearts of the Irish its memory and its name. But then it was objected that the present measure would introducr anomalies in the Con stitution, and open a passage to dangers. Let all these anotna des and dangers be heaped together by Hon. Gentlemen, and then he would say to them the same anomalies and dangers ,t in . the present state of things. It was easy for his en. Friend to remark upon persons having two oaths to ake on entering office, if this Bill should pass. But he had an neiwer to inform him that the anomaly of two oaths had existed the last 110 years. His Hon. Friend also noticed the ano em Ily of having a King who was bound to be a Protestant, -fan le. his Parliament and Councillors were exempted from- the lition. - But let him bear in mind, that although the Act of le dement provided that the King should be a Member of the eite.stant Episcopal Church, it allowed him to have his whole enn ., euncil Dissenters or persons of no religion at all.—(llear On_ F..7.t was now said, too, that this Bill for the first time would ac 'knowledge the right of British subjects to hold spiritual com munion with the See of Rome. But by the 18th of Geo. 111. by which the Popish Bishops and Clergy were obliged to swear that they do not acknowledge any temporal foreign audtority in the Realm, did not Parliament, by implication, re. connise their voluntary submission to the spiritual power of the Pore ? In the Establishment of 'nlaynooth College, which was expressly sanctioned, and the doctrine and discipline of which is by law vested in a Board of Roman Catholic Visitors, was not voluntary communion with the See of Rome acknowledged?— And this led him to another of the anomalies, namely, that henceforth no Protestant Member could take the oath of Su premacy.—He should, however, he glad to know in what sense Protestants have heretofore taken path, when, as he just'de, monstrated. the spiritual authority of the Pope for the I isSt half century had been recognized by various Acts of the Legisla ture.—( Hear, hear!)—He meant a voluntary submission to the religious supremacy of the Pope- e not• any thing which could have the force of law. 'With respect to those who contended that dangers would exist from the repeal of the Jaws affect ing Catholics, he should only ask, was the moral operation of laws so ,utterly forgotten, as to let such a sentiment escape.— Did Hon. Gentlemen forget that in Ireland the laws would operate not on passive beings, but on those having feelings susceptible of every attraction. Of every free Constitution this principle was at the foundation, and it was the source of our own greatness and freedom. Just laws worked their own objects, and secured the loyalty and support of the.commu -nity for which 'they were framed. But his Honourable Friend referred to the evidence taken before the Committees, to chew that the Catholics ought still to he excluded ; he Pin C. Grant) was confirmed by that evidence in the opposite ; and when he reflected that this evidence was now not only before the. English people, but would be disseminated over the Conti nent of Europe, his expectations of its beneficial consequences we're much increased : for all who were accustomed to converse with enlightened foreigners must have felt the severity of their taunt whenever any instance of intolerance or apprehension abroad was mentioned—namely " look at the. state of Ireland." Hear, hear!) —Was there net cause then to rescue England from the stain thus cast on her—was it not time, he would not say to emancipate Ireland, but to emancipate the English people from the stigma which the Penal Laws fixed upon their chit racter ? Hear, hear,. bear I)—But to return—he should not enter into the details of the evidence which his Honourable Friend bard adverted to ; although he thought be had dealt too severely with Dr. Doyle, a Prelate whose private virtues, lie understood were equal to his acknowledged talents.. He • certainly regretted that Dr. Doyle had allowed himself to write the letters signed J. K. .14., or at least that to the energy and the eloquence of Bossuet he had not added, in those productions, the meekness and Christian charity of a reneron. He did not at the same time see much discrepancy between the writings and the evidence of' that Bishop.— The 'latter appeared to be given in the spirit of one friend conversing with another, and the other to have been composed. under feelings of acute exasperation. And when. he considered the charges which proceeded from the press and the pulpit of this country against the Catholics, it was not astonishing that they felt their natural feelings of indig nation rise up against such calumnies, moreover when the Le gislature stamped their religion as a crime —(Hear o—and exn eluded them from that wide field of ambition in which the rest of the nation expatiated at pleasure. His Hon. Friend,,(Sir it. Inglish) and likewise maintained that the e . xisting, laws did not affect the mass of the people. Now he put it to his Honourable - Friend's constitutional knowledge, if' it was not one of the most sound and sacred maxims of this free State, and the highest offi ce!' were open to persons from the lowest orders of the people. Were the Catholics then so different a race from the Protestants that to them this solitary maxim would not apply ? Could his' Hon. Friend recollect the inspiring influence which this Con niitutional truth had on the people of England, and exclude the people of Ireland from its benefits ? Many there might be upon whom the maxim had no effect; but oil the other hand, to its operation we owed all that energy and exertion which charac terised us as a nation, and raised us to the exaltation at which we had-arrived—it excited that hope and ardour which diflbsed itself through all the ramifications.of our affairs, et magno se corporc ;nivel. It descended and animated the lowliest cottage in this country, and why should it not be felt by the humble peasant of Ireland? Why should the Hon. Barn disbelieve the testimony before the Committee on this subject—Why, if Par liament firmly relied on the evidence of. Dr. ill`Nevin and Mr.- 'Pandyeshould they now discredit that of Mr. O'Connell and Dr. Doyle? Bat he should not refer to the testimony of Ca tholics—he should adduce the testimony of the lion. Member for Loudly (Mr. Leslie Foster). When he was asked did he think the Catholics generally conceived themselves interested in the fate of Emancipation—His answer was, that all the upper ranks, and all those immediately above the mass of the popu lation felt the greatest anxiety on the subject, and the greatest discontent at the existing laws." He was then asked, did not this feeling tend to repress the exertions of the upper classes ill putting down movements of. insurrection among their infe liars? and his reply was, " That .he certainly thought it had that effect." Was it to be presumed then that some, of this discontent would not overflow on the mass of the people, could . Honourable Gentlemen persuade themielves that such a system, which paralyzed all the natural checks upon popular commotion and turbulence was one that oughteo be persevered in ? And yet such was the state of Ireland, that while the present laws. created and spread discontent among one class, they prevented the • other class from counteracting the evil. ( Hear i)a , -He should. not, however, go into the gene ral evidence before the Committee, but he would suppose those witnesses misinformed, and that, to know the real situation, it was neceaaary to come to his Hon. Friend for a check and com ment on their te.stimonynn-(Hear; bear !)—They were at all events persons of .the. greatest influence in Ireland, and let the erroneous impressions be removed from their minds. lle should not presume to trespass further respecting the evidence but to say. thanit con firmed the opinions he always entertained on this question. When he first voted in favour of the Catho lies he had done so froni conviction, though at an early period of life. afterwards, when entering an office in Ireland, he was told that experience and acquaintance with .with that country and similar circumstances would change his opinion, and so earnest and constant were these warnings that he almost doubt. eat the propiiety of his own past conclusions. Ile determined however to examine the subject impartially, and he did so—but that cool investigation so far from having shaken, confirmed his previous conviction—(hear.)—however it might have mellowed his feelings and tempered his enthusiasm as to the immediate results of such a measure. He spoke of course se an individual, yethe might' be permitted to observe, that he found in Ireland a strong harrier raised by the law between the people and the Government. There appeared none of that instinctive sympathy between the ramifications and the centre of society which prevails in this country—there was nothing of that delicate sensibility by'which the-connection of between six millions of the people and the Head of the State might be traced—which . . Feels in. each thread, and lives along the line." The population of Ireland was a vast mass moving in an orbit of its own, and presenting only its dark side to the Government of the country. It was not, however, to use the words of Burke; an inert masa, it was one covered with- living beings, and having disc-ontent lodged and nourished in its heart by the: law itself. --(Hear, hear !)—The Penal Laws at present were, j only efficient to'punish the Catholics, not to protect the State from danger.--(Hear !)—They tore the people from their natu ral leaders, and subjected them to the influence of the Clergy, • which if tempered by other feelings would be wholesome, but in its exclusive operation was pernicious. The system drove: the Catholics to take a rude and wild justice upon the laws that, oppressed them.—(Hear !)—How lamentable that a Nation so capable of every generous and grateful sentiment should, by,. legal compulsion, have .contrary feelings engrafted on their nature. In the time of the Henrys and Edwards it was said that the Irish were not fit to enjoy the English Con stitution, and the assertion had. worked out. its-own veri fication. Ireland was not in a situation to feel the quiet operation of our Constitution—it acted, - if he might use the expression, by paroxysms in that country—it moved by ef forts. Hence the frequent recurrence to Insurrection Acts to preserve peace arid the enactment of a recent measure, which no man in that House more regretted 'than he did. Thhty: years_ago.all things were under a code of restriction in Ireland—now all were free but the Catholics, and they, while every thing else was melting and subsiding around them, re rnaM ed a monument of the injustice of the Laws.—(Hearf)—He admitted that he found . among the Catholics, as among .the Professors of all Religions, varieties of characters, some of them were severe and rigid, others were mild and imbued with the purest charity, nor in mentioning the latter could he refrain from alluding to an Irish Roman Catholic Prelate now no more, Dr. Everard, the late Bishop of Cashel. No man, whether Protestant or Catholic, was ever more worthy of the office of a Christian Prelate than Dr. Everard, and so tar from being im bued with bigotry lie and the, Protestant Archbishop of the same place lived through life in habits of fraternal amity.— - They were besides both sincere and zealous in their respective religions, and residing for the most part under the same root, spent their time in brotherly affection, and a truly pastoral attention to their flocks. He also hoped that many similar instances would occur in Ireland if this - Bill passed into a law. (Heow, hear !)—The varieties of character in the Catholics, to • which he had alluded, was strongly exemplified throughout , Europe during the wars of Henry IV. The one party of ' them, severe in principle and atrocious in conduct, was head- • ed by the Duke of Guise—but as if to show host- great a discrepancy could obtain in persons of the same creed, the opposite party who supported Henry, IVe a Protestant Prince, were mild and benevolent both in . faith and prac tice. A Catholic Historian, too.e. in recording this fact, ascribed it to the belief which the Catholics of France enter tained that Henry was destined by Providence to reign over them. What too said that Historian Thuanus in the Preface to that history. With the permission of the House he would read a short extract, which showed the liberal and tolerant spirit of the writer. It proceeded—"- Tempe ad cmterke quihus hoc • infestum virtuti sawolum scatet male, relieionis dissidium accessit, good jam toto pa=ne sectilo orbem Xtianuin conthmis moribus vexat et deinceps vexabit, nisi tempestiva remedia, atque adeo alio quam (ut hactenus adhibita aunt, at) ins, quorum prsecipue interest. adhibeantur. Nam experientil satis 'edocti sumus, ferrum, flamnius, exilic, proscriptiones, irritlisse potius quam samisse . morbtim mend inlimrentem : ad quern paoinde curandum, non _iis gum in corpus. tantum penetrant, sell doe trines et sedulll institutione, qute in animum lenitur inatillata descendit, opus esse." What .did he conclhde from these facts, that indiscriminate charges against whole bodies of people were false and absurd. Wherever good laws have pre vailed there Roman Catholics were found good subjects—(hear) • —and his object was to surround them with such genial influ ence as would render. them good and loyal members of society. He should not detain the House longer, hut to wake one obser vation. In expressing himself as he had done, he trusted it would be believed that he was not indifferent to the religion he belonged, or ignorant of the distinction between it and that of the Catholic.—(Hear ! )—Were that the proper time and place he hoped he should be able to convince Honourable Gentlemen that the most sincere anti ardent. attachment to our creed was compatible with the most charitable feelings towards all others. He detested the sentiment that no man could be liberal on mat ters of belief who was indifferent.—(Hear, hear!)—ln conclu sion he had only to say, that although this measure might be delayed for one, or perhaps two years, it must pass.—( Hear, hear I)—He saw that event in the anxiety which the people of England took in the , affairs of Ireland—in the improvements which they were desirous to introduce into that courarT—in he measures which Parliament had already adopted to serve Ire land; and in every stop of the liberal policy which iris Right Hon. Friend had taken.— (Hear, I)—He put it then to those who opposed the Question, whether it were not better to crown: I their work at once, when it Mielit now .be rendered both ac ceptable and delightful, as well as benefieial. He pitt it to them whethertheir consistency would not be best preserved by, generosity, and voluntarily advancing to do that which their resistance might retard, but could not prevelt.—(Hear, hear I) • The SOLICITORtGENERA L expressed his deterrnina. tion to oppose the bill. He cootrasted the writings of Dr-- Doyle, on whose testimony so mucfi stress had been laid, with his evidence on the same subject, and contended that, with every respect for his station and talents,- such discrepancy did not entitle him to confidence. It was impossible to argue the present question without reference to the other,bills which were. connected with it, and therefore must be considered as a part of the same measure. .He agreed hr the opinion his Hon oorable and Learned Friend the Member' for Winchelea had pronounced on the Disfranchisement Bill, and, lie be-, lieved, that if carried into effect, the di.tra-chised freeholders of Ireland would feel disposed to exercise that vague anti rude justice on the severity of the law. to which - his Right. Honour able Friend (Mr. Grant) had alluded. What with its object but to sacrifice a great class of the .community to • the ambition of the few ? That Mr. O'Connell should sit in that House, have a silk gown, or be elevated to the Betich—that the Doke of Norfolk anti the Earl of Fingal should be summoned to Parlia ment, a great body of freeholders were to be disfranchised. The , rights of the many were to be sacrificed to saosty the ambition of the Patrician and Equestrian order of the Cal 11011C3. laugh.) He would ask the Hon. Baronet, the Member lot Westoiinster, what would be the consequence, if it were proposed to disfran chise the tailors, shoemakers, carpenters, et Itoe genus Omnr, of the city which that .Hon. Baronet had tire honour to repre sent? What did the Honourable Baronet suppose would be the result, if it were attempted to disfranchise the ehininey-swoepers, who, as the _Hon. Baronet well knew, lived in many of the alleys of Westminster,while the shopkeepers and higher: orders of the inhabitants were allowed to retain their rights? It was said, that these forty-shilling freeholders io Ireland were driven to the place of election to vote, at the discretion of those by whom they were so treated; but in that respect they only resembled the individuals in the well known case of the . Isle worth mill, who, possessing each a forty-shilling yearly inte rest in that mill, were driven to Brentford for the purpose of giving each his vote in favour of the return of. the Hon. Baro net, fbr iddiesex. But then all this was for the purpose of conciliating those who would otherwise not be disposed to sup port. the Catholic Relief Bill. The supporters of the Elective Franchise Bill, did not wish the success of that measure, for the purpose of putting an end to the fraud and perjury, the existence of which they asserted, but for the political advan tages which the other Bill secured.. So indifferent were they to the cause of religion and morals, that they were quite dia. posed, if the Catholic Relief Bill were not agreed to, freely to relinquish the Elective Franchise Bill. It was evident that the present friends of what was called Catholic Emancipation, had no objection whatever to rob one class of the Catholics for the purpose of benefiting smother -class. Should the whole of the proposed Bills receive the sanction of the Legislature, some cu rious dialogues might possibly take place in Ireland on the re turn of the gentlemen who had been delegated from the Catho lics of that country. For instance, he could imagine a meeting between-Mr. O'Connell and one of the unfortunate disfranchised 40s. freeholders, in which the latter might say, " Well, Mr. O'Connell, and what have you. got ?" " Oh," the answer would be, " I have got a silk gown and a seatin Parliament.". " ! that's very well indeed for you ; but what have we Aot ?" " You ! why, while we have got well robed, you have got well robbed !"—(A loud laugh.)—A robbery it unquestion ably was; and he had no hesitation in declaring it to be his decided opion, that a more -unconstitutional measure than this Elective Franchise Bill, had not been introduced into Parliament since the grand forfeiture of the charters under James 11. In the well known case of Nottingham, the proceedings were founded upon evidence on oath. There was not upon the Journals a single case of the disfranchisement of a borough for corruption or mal-practices, except upon evidence on oath. .Yet they were Pow about to disfranchise a large body of the people without any evidence at all, and with the utmost discrepancy of opinion as to the amount of qualification to which the right of voting might advantageously be limited. He would now proceed to the. other measure, .he. meant to the re solution which had been agreed to.on the motion .Of a Noble Lord, which wens to the establishment in this country of a Papal Church armed with full powers and right of jurisdiction. He did not believe .that many Honourable Members were aware of the, extensive, and intolerable nature of those powers, anti of that jurisdiction. Did those who.agree to this hasty vote know that the Papal Church had a right to interfere with baptism, with marriage, with burial, with the sacrament, with going into the church, with receiving charity, &c.? Permission with respect to all these matters might be granted or withheld according to the will of the Catholic Clergy., No such power existeriitt the hands of our Clergy ; for since the Reforma t io n those rights which, until that period, had been spiritual, awre converted to civil; but by the constitution 'of the Romish Church they were spiritual rights. Under the Church of Eng land, those - subjects were brought before legal Courts;_ pre sided over by the King's Judges ; but by the vote to which he had alluded, the Catholic Bishops in Ireland were invested with the sole and entire jurisdiction over them a and had the ,power of coercing the whole Catholic population of that country. Adverting to the form of the oath to be taken by the Catholic Bishops, he expressed himself at a loss to un derstand why, as' the Catholic BiShopO' in Spain and in other Catholic countries of Europe, took en oath of entire submission to the State, the Catholic Bishops as Ireland were not to do so also. In France, and indeed in every country in Europe, the Crown exercised entire controul ever the Bishops. In none were they permitted to possess the powers, which, if these mea sures were sanctioned by the Legislature, they would possess. —But it was said that the' Bill contained an efficient security against any improper conduct on the part of the Catholic Church: What was it ? The establishment of a Board of Catholic Bishops ! Suppose it were required to secure the country from the danger of suffering embezzlement or imposition from a Chancellor of the. Exchequer, would it be considered a very judicious proceeding to establish for that purpose a Board con sisting of four Lords of the Treasury ?—(A laugh, and cries of Hear !)-Really it was not a subject on which a grave man would throw away the powder and shot of an argument. The very proposition for framing any Board at all implied the exist ence of jealousy, the necessity for inspection; and then the par ties respecting whom that jealousy existed, and whose conduct it was thought necessary to inspect, were made comptrollers of their own acts, anti judges of their own cause.—(Hear, hear !) In none - of the former measures of a similar nature had so great an absurdity been introduced. In the Bill proposed by Mr. Grattan, whose name was inseparably linked with the recol lection of the most eminent talents and the most ardent pa triotism.— (H ear, hear !)—The Secretary of State and a Lay Board - were to be appointed, for the purpose of inspecting the documents received - by the Catholic Bishops from the See of Rome. In Mr. Plunkett's Bill, the Chief Secretary for Ire land, and one of. the Secretaries. of State for England, were to be appointed the inspectors. But it had been said that it was a principle of the Roman Catholic Religion not to allow un hallowed eyes to behold these sacred .documents. Against this assertion, he would confront the whole practice in France from the time of Henry IV. downwards ; the whole practice in Spain, - and in every other country in Europe; in all of which those. communications from the Papal See were submitted to the in spection of the Ministers of the Crown. He begged the House to consider the state of publicopinion as to this question There were 263 petitions against it, and only 5-1 for it. The petitions against the present measure were not the emanations of the Clergy, • they were the spontaneous presentations from the Lally. He should forget his character of a constitutional lawyer if hr voted for the Bill, and supporting it, he should consider .himself as supporting a system of trickery and char latinism. Ile should therefore consider it his duty to move, that the Bill be read this day six months. Mr. HL'SKISSON protested that, after the course of his long Parliamentary life, there were few things he could look back to with more entire satisfaction than the votes he bad given for the partial relief, and general removal of the disabilities of the Roman Catholics. He considered the present measure as having nothing to do with the doctrine of the Hierarchy, or as affecting the morals of individuals, either in their relations of private life, or in respect to their obli g ations in civil society ; but he viewed it solely as a ques tionbetween - subject and subject. On this ground lie should vote for the present measure, and he was convinced that it would tend to allay the discontents that had prevailed in Ire land so much to the prejudice of the general interests of the empire. Vie disunion that had been created upon this subject, and which still existed, had the effect of retarding the progress of prosperity in time of peace, to render the period of peace less durable, and to endanger every interest whenever war should arise, dissevering the feelings of the country, at the pe riod when it was the most essential that they should be concen trated.--( Hear !)—He conceived that as to the principle of the question, all discussion was long ago at an end, and he should- therefore confine himself solely to the convenience of the question, as far as it immediately concerned Ireland.— In this point of view, the evil generated by the present sys tem of the laws -was one of the greatest magnitude. lie would beg the House to consider die extraordinary circum stances under which the Protestant religion had been first in troduced into Ireland—it had merely transferred. the endow ments of the Church, • without transferring the opinions and feelings of the people. This was the basis of all the diffi culties which had arisen in the management of the Catholic Question with reference to Ireland. Many considered the trans fer of church property which had taken place in Ireland upon eke Reformation to be as irrevocable, and that the present right of ownership in the Protestant church was as valid as the gtheral possession of property in either country—and that to unsettle the property of the church would be to unsettle all other property, and to disturb the Government of the chun try. Putting aside such questions, which at least admitted of diseute, he thought the present measure amounted to this— was the evil of the present system of religious intolerance in : Ireland, of such a nature that it might wear itself out, or whe ther it was likely to increase or ti continue to the extent of in juring the country ? Was it fit to - let an evil of this nature take. its course, and go on year after year, or was it requisite to check it by Parliamentary influence? The question, however,. seemed no lOnt.;er to be whether any thing ought to be done, the difficulty was rather to ascertain what the Government ought to do. Al! consideretions of converting the Catholics to-Pro testantism were - now at an end. The hope of converting 6,000,000 of Irish to the Protestant Church, was too absurd to merit attention, and the point now was, to consider these people aconfirnied Catholics, and to deliberate upon the extent to which the House might go in removing the disabilities under which such Catholics laboured. It had become the duty of the House to inquire and ascertain what the difficulties of Ireland really were, and it behoved -all parties to acknow ledge-that the question did not admit of being longer post poned. Lte would refer to time opinion of one Military Commander of authority, who knew well what the value . of ten thousand men was in tranquillizing a country, and . be was of opinion that the granting of the present ques tion would do more to tranquillize Ireland than keeping up an army of such an amount In that .country. The greatest loss that Ireland suffered tinder the present system, was the diversion of millions of capital into other chan nels, which lied otherwise been employed in the encourage s merit of her industry, and the improvement of her advantages. . She had, however, advanced considerably in other respects -e in knowledge, in education, in liberality.and was in every respect better qualified to receive the boon than she had been • some years ago. It was said that oft ancestors had provided by these disabilities against speculative \langer, but it became that House to contrast with th ose specu l at i ve dangers the real and pressing emergency to which the system had given rise. • The Catholics came before them as supplicants,; they were hacked by a great portion of the intelligent Protestant popula- - tion of both countries. What danger then was likely to• arise from the grant ? Some persons might think that the Catlin i lics spent every hour of their lives • in deliberating how they might best destroy the Protestant religion all, over the earth.— But what was it they now demanded ? To be admitted within the pale of the Constitution. - Was it likely to suppose, that,if i they were admitted, they would apply themselves the next. moment to destroy what they were so anxious to participate in ? If they did, what would they theta become ? • Not supplicants for justice, which constituted their strength-( Hear, hear !)---but aggressor's :ind enemies to the Constitution, whom_ I they were bound t o res i st . B ut i t was a b sur d to ant i c i p a te ! such result, unless we could believe that they were at the same time the most desperately wicked, and desperately foolish of Mankind. The Secretary for the Home Department, though . lie seemed to think that something might still be granted to the Catholics,. under certain circumstances, maintained the neces -1 city of their exclusion froth the Bench and from both I-louses of Parliament. He seemed to think that there might be an in-. divichsal of that persuasion possessed of such transcendant ta lents as to command a situation in the Coundils of the country, if there was not a law to prevent it. But if, on acquiring such a situation, he proceeded to-use his•power for the overthrow of the Constitution, he must, with all his talents, be not only a bigot but a hypocrite, and the slave of an ambition such as had' never actuated any man before in any popular assem bly. In that House he would be taught to move in the legitimate sphere of his ambition, but if shut out of the pri vileges of the Constitution, he would become here, as in Ire land, an eccentric and blazing comet, over which they could have no controul. He would warn the House again And again, that it.would be their fate to deal with combinations as formidable as those of the Catholic Association, if they did not get rid of those childish prejudices and apprehensions which induced them to persevere in refusing their claims: He wished it to he distinctly understood before he sat down, that neither his Right Honourable Friend, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, nor himself, had any concern in the framing of those measures, which were called the wings of the Catholic Bill, nor any knowledge of them until they were stated to the House. In voting for the other measure, he was influenced by a desire to chew that he was prepared to concur in carrying . the great question of the Catholics into effect, by agreeing to pecuniary arrangements, if it should be necessary ; but when Honourable Gentlemen talked of details which were not before the House ; of allowances to Archbishops and Bishops, and others of the Clergy, lie begged to be considered as not pledging - himself to any such proceeding. As far as lie could judge at present, upon a subject so difficult, lie thought he should be unwilling to place the Catholic-in the condition of an established church, but that the provision for the' Clergy should be left dependent on the Crown, like that of other Dissenters. He would not now enter into a discussion which was not before the House, nor could lie until the principle of the measure of relief was agreed upon. Ile would therefore conclude by entreating the House to deal with that important question in the manner and with the tone of .men who were fully apprized of its importance to the prosperity and well-being of the State. Mr. PEEL said he was anxious, before lie made any obser ttoeaarnnoebdsearae-nataioemn rations on the immedi a t e ques tion before the House , to allude last.. The H onoura bl e an d L earne d Gentleman had said-upon a w n h i ( c 3 ll r h . a ß d r o dropped ugiam ) f r i o n m th a e n d H e b o a n t o e u o r a i l I F e r d a n a ( 3 1 , . . that occasion, thgt Dr. O'Beirne, the late Bishop of 11Teath, had received his ordination originally in the Catholic Church. The widow of the Bishop of Meath having seen thatstatement in the papers, had addressed a letter to him (Mr. Peel), requesting that this error might be corrected, and declaring that the Bishop had never been at any time ordained into the Church of Rome. The fact, he believed, was, that Dr. O'Beirne had been educated at Paris, where, at an early period of life he saw reason for changing to the Proteistant faith.. Ile subsequently became a member of the University of Cambridge, and was there or dained for the first time, he believed, by Bishop Watson. The House, he was confident, -would excuse this trespass upon their time, as the widow had expressed considerable anxiety on the subject—(Hear, hear, hear !) In proceeding to the question itself; it was not his intention to occupy them long ; he had already offered every opposition to the measure which he was capable of giving, his opinions were on re cord, and be should not seek for novelty where he could not find it, nor abuse their indulgence by exhausting their pa tience. He- would, however, avail himself of that oppor tunity to express his decided adherence to the opiniOns which he hail already avowed. Ile could not concur with those who thought that nothing more could be granted to • the Roman Catholics, for he had repeatedly expressed his willingness that the Roman Catholics of England should be placed on the same footing with those of Ireland— Hear, hear !)—and the Noble Lord who had brought forward a proposition to that effect would give him credit for the sincerity of his intentions, as he must recollect that the measure had his entire approbation. — But his opinion was unaltered as to the expediency of reserving the Executive Government and the. Chief Officers of State to be - filled by Protestants, under this. Protestant Constitution. When he saw the Civil contest which had arisen from religiohs feeling, both in Scotland and in Ireland; when he saw that the Reformation and the Revolution in this country were brought about by such means; he could not help thinking that religion, at all times a powerful motive, would still continue to influence the transactions of mankind, and the great occurrences of em-, pires. It was therefore that he did not not think it right to • remove these barriers which had been set up for the protection of the Protestant ascendancy (Hear, hear !)—An Ilonpur able and Learned Gentleman had done them the favour to read a most learned treatise on the Constitution, for their edi fication, but he seemed to have lost sight of an imPortant'faet. This principle was, that the exclusive laws against the had their origin at the time of Charles IL when the coun try was in a state of ferment upon these subjects. But that was not the period to which they were to be referrelea- They were coeval with the Reformation. The Honour able and Learned Gentleman would find that an Act passed so early as the eighth year of Elizabeth, imposing an oath upon such Catholics as were elected Members of that House, which, if the Honourable Gentleman -would propose as a substitute for the present form, might readily be adopted by the most anxious advocates of exclusion. The authority of a peamble in the time of Edward the Sixth, had also been al luded to, as if the policy of that period was peculiarly favour able to the views of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. —According to the eloquent language of that preamble, the season of summer required a more light and liberal clothing than that of winter, and so of more quiet times. But he (Mr. Peel) had taken the pains to look at the enactment of which this preamble was the exordium, and he found that the " light and liberal clothing" was of a very different nature from .what the House might beled to suppose. It was, in fact, a measure under which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman might have suffered death for delivering such a speech as that in which he had pronouced its eulogium.-•--(A laugh.)—He found in this enactMent that any person Who maintained, either by speech or in writing, that the King was not the supreme head of the Church; sheu'd be deemed guilty of high - treason, and: should suffer the penalties of death and confiscation ac cordingly.—(A laugh.)—The apprehensions, which lie can didly avowed, upon contemplating the admission of Catho , : lics into Parliament and the high .offices. of State, were not lessened by the guards proposed to be introduced, and which seemed to give satisfaction to many.. His Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Buskisson) seemed to take a little alartn upon that part of the subject when he protested against being under , ' stood to approve of making the Catholic Clergy independent. of the Crown, or . placed, on a different footing with respect to their allowances from the other Dissenters. Yet, what was the meaning of the words " provision,by law," contained in the Bill for which lie had voted, if they did not mean that such a provision .should be made independent of the Crowh,. which should have no discretion to exercise in the case ? Ir ever there Was a question that ought to be left to the Executive Govern-, ment, it was. that of conducting the arrangement with the clergy, and he did not think it was likely to forward the object •of that negociatiop much, to shackle the negotiations on both sides with a resolution of this nature. It was true that the plan was: not yet formally before the -House, but he would appeal to the House - Whether the _plan of remuneration for Archbishops, Bishops, Priests, and other Clergy, was not distinctly explained. The words of the resolution indeed were. general, but the lan guage of- the mover was explicit- enough. It was competent to them to take die provision for the Clergy either out of the pockets of the people or the funds of the Established Church. This was the alternative proposed twthem ; for his part, lie had strong objections to either. If hereafter it should be deemed expedient to adopt some such provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy, he would shew that they could not be too cautious in deliberating upon - the arrangement, when they knew, from th e mo u th of Dr. Doyle himself, the extreme degree ofjealousy with which they looked updn any interfer ence on the part of the Crown in matters.with which the Pope, as the head of their religion, was in any way connected. He thought the House would have done better, if theyhad paused before they agreed to the resolution for making a provision for the Catholic Clergy, and leaving that matter entirely to the Exe cutive Government, who could alone conduct it to a satisfactory result. He thought that the chief Executive Officers should.still he Protestant. It implied no degradation •to the Catholic; nor would it lead to animosities which could interfere with the:im partial administration of justice, to which every man in the community had an equal right. He was aware that much use had been made by the advocates of the Catholic Association of the alleged inequality in the administration of justice. But after all the evidence that had been—gone into for the purpose of investigating that charge, the proposition was not made out. Hit had been made out,-or it he saw the slightest reason for supposing that such inequality realy did exist, there was no concession that he .would not consent to I make, in order to give them that security which, as members of the state, they were entitled to demand from its laws. Ile would not deity that the hopes of the Catholics had been excited by the great talents they had seen engaged in their favour. His,Right Honourable Friend had advised him to re lax his opposition, but he had heard no arguments which could induce him to take that view. On the grounds he had always stated,. he still thought that exclusion to the extent he had de scribed was necessary. to the safety of the country. He pre ferred acting on the dictates of his own judgment, after having heard all that could be said on both sides of the question, to following the advice of any other persons. He thought it stets slue to himself, due to his • public character, and due to his own consistency, a° take the part lie did, he did it with re gret, as differing from gentlemen with whom, :on all other questions, he had acted with the greatest cordiality, and for whom lie had the highest respect.(Hear, hear !)—He took on himself the responsibility which might belting to this line of conduct, but he had been no party to the hopes of the Catho lics,. and it was his determination to adhere to his duty, and oppose the measure. _ :Mr. BROUGHAM rose amidst some cries of Question, and began by assuring the House, that after twelve nights' discus sion—due, however, to the great interest at stake, and due to the Catholics—it was not his intention to trespass on the House at any length, when there could not possibly be any novelty of argument—when the question had been over and over again exhausted—when he had previously given his reasons for his opinion --but he felt himself called on to make a few observa tions as to something which fell from him on Friday evening, and which had drawn forth an observation from the Right Hon. Secretary; and he should add a few words as to the measure itself, which he hoped would preclude all further debate. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then entered into an ex. planation relative to what he had said of Bishop O'Byrne. IC had been understood lie said that the Bishop had, in the early part of his life, received orders from the Pope which had been afterwards repealed. This was not a solitary instance, as he understood a gentleman, at present a very pupular preacher, had never received any but a foreign ordination. If Bishop O'Byrne had not received Popish ordination, it was singnlar . that this should haVe been so generally credited. He (Mr. Brougham) in saying so, only said what was generally under. stood. His friends denied it, and he had himself stated the same circumstance about five or six years in the House.:— Bishop Finchley, it was said, gave him the Protestant ordina tion, but it was always a matter of doubt.—[Mr.. Peel here shewed the Honourable and Learned Member a letter.]—He (Mr. Brougham) said he did not deny it. He was himself sa tisfied, but there were other people Who were not satisfied ; though it was probable the mistake might have arisen from the brother of Bishop. O'Byrne having been a Catholic Priest,— [There was here some interruption, and the House manifested symptonis of impatience.] -111 r. Brougham assured the Meni hers he should not be long, but that he should necessarily be longer in proportion as he was interrupted. The Honourable and Learned Member then proceeded' to make a few observa tions - on the measure itself; and, in reply to M r. Peel, spoke nearly as follows : —Si r, the arguments which have been most strenuously advanced,- and OR which most stress has been laid, both as th ey apply to this measure and its two ad juncts, ref e r c hi e fl y to the dangers to be appfel i ended to the Protestant E sta bli s h ment, both in Ch i nch an d S t a te, `! by granting any political power to the Catholics, who, it I is said,. will be bound in close and intimate union by the bond of their eornrnon faith and a large majority of the Irish people being Catholics, they will return to this House a ma jority of Catholic Members, who being also united, will endan ger our establishment both in Church and State. To me, Sir, this apprehension of danger seems as nothing, for I find the very same argument urged, and the very same species of alarm founded on them 120 years ago. We have had expe rience that the alarm then sounded was groundless, that no mis chief has been the consequence ; and I call on the House' to dismiss from their minds all alarm of danger from the present • measure, as equally grounless with that with which our Pro testant establishment was threatened 120 years ago. At that period, when the Union with Scotland was proposed, the House of Lords was told by the Bishop of Bath and Wells, the worthy predecessor of the present Bishop, who was un derstood to be one of the violent opponents of the Catholics, that _the Government and - the Protestant Church' woohl be exposed to great danger by the admission of sixteen Presby terian Peers to sit in the House of Lords, who could not be suppesed , well affected to the Church of England as este- ' hlished by Bishops, Priests and Deacons. Danger too was ap prehended in Scotland, but there the 'matter was viewed in a different light, and it was said, do not send sixteen Lords and forty-five Commoners, the flower of the land, up to the English Parliament, for if they go to that land where there is a Church provided with Bishops and Deans, they will be converted from Presbytery, and will bring much danger on the Church of Scot- • land. The argument is equally good on both sides ; the , alarms arc both equally groundless, and the experience that they were groundless, which we now , have, should make the ' House reject as equally groundless.the alarms which were now propagated, and suppose that 120 years hence they would he regarded by our posterity with the same sort of sniile with which we now regard the violent apprehensions of the Pro testant Bishop. Violent fears, Sir, are also nourished against the Protestant Priests, and loud alarms are hounded more especially against the Jesuits. But may not Je suits be found, or men whose doctrines are like those of the Jesuits, even in this House, and among the person s w h e ar e th most friendly to e Protestant Establishment ? I have heard, Sir, of such aperaon, a great friend to the Protestant-Establish ment, a great eneiny to the Catholics—a Prelate, Sir, for iyhoui I have a great respect, a verylearned and pious Divine, Who says, that when a man signs the Thirty-nine Articles, he • is not called on to believe eves's , oneof them, but to have a gen ral belief in the whole s there being, Sir, I suppose some, whirls are overpowering in their evidence,' overdone with belief, while there are others which are deficient in belief, and others which ; are null ; sonic, Sir, which are at flood, and others at ebb, and Some standing still; and- out of all this a man, - I suppose, makes up an average belief,. sa that he assay swallow down the whole, and take the living and the ankles together.—(Hear ! and a laugh.)—Or perhaps thesearesiiallowed pareMhetieally, as it is always in a parenthe: that such things go down:— (A laugh.)—l must object, too, against that injustice of select- s' ing an individual, and taking his sentiments and opinions as the sentiments and opinions of a ,whole .mass, charg ing on it whatever absurdities and whatever errors he may have fallen into. There can be no greater injustice; but- this '• is not all, for the pamphle - s written , by- Bishop Doyle at one time, are contrasted with his examination taken at another ; and though the writingsSaf Bishop Doylai contain Many things ' which I do not approve of,. which _I wish he had never said, and which the Bishop himaelf probably wishes he had never , Said, yet May not the contrast observed between his writings, and his evidence, have originated , in that kindness which 'the Catholics have since received,—they have since seem the door of Parliament thrown open to them, and the House condescending for the first time to go Seriously into their case; - candidly listening to their. complaints, honestly allowing that , their grievances ought to be taken into consideration, and bending our minds to give them redress; and if this is the causes` of such an alteration in the sentiments of the Catholics, what • more reason, Sir, can I, or . can any man give why we . should carry this alteration further-eadiniteing the Catholics to ' all the benefits of the Constitution, incorporating them with us, encouraging these kindly feelings, by doing away all dis tinctions;and if so much good has bi,en done by just allow-:".. ing them to see a part of the •Conititution through a chink' as it were—if they are so - much reconciled to us by this mere glimpse, what May •We not 'expect by thiowing the doors wide open. to them, and admitting them to all the honours of the Constitution ? if the, doors- are thrown wide open, Sir, there will then be no difference, and that confidence in our-Government. and in the Ptotestant,Establishment will be '2 completed, of which we now see the beginning. But I must, Sir, protest against taking the Opinions and expressions of one person. as the criterion for judging of the opinions of a large class of men, and of making the opinions of that one the stand- , ant for all. flow would gentlemen here like to have,themselSose judged of in - this manner ? Are there no individuals-in the House ? Ate there never any speeches made here, which Geo- - tlemen would not like should be adopted as the standard for the whole ? Such an lion 11Ieniber made a speech the other night, in which there was .no, great. portion of Sense, no great accuracy of grammar, would the Right Hon. Secretary like that this s peech p should be adopted as the criterion foie:judging of all those who opposed the CatholiC Questi on ? Vapid lie be l e ased that Such-a-one, or Sir Somethi ng Such-a-one, should be taken as a sample of ? all those who opp ose d t h e Catholics, and that the whole of the opponents of t h at measure s h ou ld be described , according to the speeches of one or two individuals ? Persons , too, may be found out of th e H ot i se , great supporters, of the establishment. Hon.• Baronet s , or Honourable and Reverend Baronets, who write books and letters against the, Catholics ; and the Right, Honourable Secretary will n o t c e rtainly that all the -friends of the• EstahliShment, all the enemies of the Catholics, should he described.-as these persons are.-- Again, Sir, it is said that there is danger of persecution from' the Catholics, and that the Catholic Church is essentially per- seeuting; but this does not belong to it as Catholic ; it belongs - . to it as possessing superiority; and the same spirit has be-- longed to every Church. Persecution. is not 'reserved for one Church, but belongs to all Churchei at th a t p ar ti cu l ar period e ; When any one has oairied the ascendancy, and a ll difference of opinion is not put crown by reason, and at this particular crisis every church is persecuting.- Give priests power, and let there , only be honest men living under them who have the courage td think for thernaelves, and differ from the Priests, and the priests will always be ready to persecute and Crush them. Not only, I repeat, has the Catholic Church, but every Church been persecuting. Even. Luther, Sir, I fear, the first person to protest against the Catholic, the great reformer, ;Vas not exeroPt from the spirit of persecution. Our Church is not Lutheran' but Calvinistic, and of th a t Ch urc h w hi c h ta lk e d so -much of the persecution of the Catholics,. Lord Chatham said, • that we • had a•Calvinistic Creed, an Arminian Clergy, and a Pop'sh . Ritual. And what did Calvin; whose creed we follow, do . Why he burnt, he tortured- Servetus, for differing from hits`e about some iota of faith. Cr anmer h as b een re f erre d to ; h°:' Cranmer was not without the persecuting spirit—but I need not go abroad to_ seek for instances of persecution, nor g° so far to find them', nor seek for them beyond the Pro testant Church; for • there was in - Scotland, not more than -- 120 years ago, as bloody a, persecution as could be found in the annals of any Catholic country—a persecution carried on by ;a - tyrant, the Sovereign of this country, and his more tyrarooe Minister against the Covenanters, who m th e y p er s e cuted untodeath like the primitive Martyrs, whom these people resembled , both by the constancy with which they suffered, the virtues they possessed, and the torments they endured. They were the honest men who had a different opinion . from the Priests, and they were persecuted. Now we hear' violent language, puted heresies, and apprehensions of still more violent proeee ings ; but let us open the door of the ConStieution, and we shall hear no more of this crimination and recrimination —n ° more bandying about the charges of Jesuitism—no mo re " agitation and violence, and - they will only be knowts matters of history for our children. Let us remember the. • memorable words, of Thuanus, as they were quoted by thf, Right Hon. Gentleman. " Proseriiiiiones, at the very top (3 ` a climax, he exclaims, wounds, death and proscriptiOn—" pr ° '" scriptiones irritasse potins quart?, snnasse - morbun: menti inhce rentem." The country, Sir, is now at Peace—but are there no s circumstances which may ma k e t hi s -transient ? A n d if this peace should be transient, where are we to look to bu t Ireland for the interruption ? If , the peace be national in e England, -but if in Ireland i s i s k e pt by tae point at point of the bayonet ; if th ere t h ey see on l y t h e h an d of Mal ready to oppress them, or t h e h an d' o f G over n men t surf; with a scourge ready t o t orment them ; can the peace We enjoy be secure? If th a t p eace were gone, -there is no poin t .s of so much danger as I re l an d. T o t hi s spot foreign P9vve turn delighted ; those who like to seek out our blenushf s ' turn their views on I re l an d. Th ere i s not one par t of Irish; affitirs which does not find its way into every Gazette 0 _! - , Europe, and these is not one o f th e H o ly Allies who - do e ; not dwell with rapture on the troubled state of Ireland• would take this pleasure from them. I would deprive th of all hope froM Ireland. There is not one feature in case which . 'is not published in' the Vienna Gazette —it is filled with the events relative to Ireland, while it never no silent tices any - other point in our domestic policy ; it is silent on those domestic reforms which are pouring.the peasn' of the world into our country, but it is careful to, record_, every circumstance connected with Ireland. This may :T bi . ,,, as an exaMple for all the fsreign urnals. Ireland is time they delight in, and this blot I would take care to remove, I . they should not have one spot to dwell on with pleasure; and wOuld Dublin ma ke and theomrk,loowkitwhitii whichthe satzydinstoewmpreergedardfeeltiognsdoll ha and Edinburgh. There may be foreign causes which sfre break up this peace, and whenever that shall collie , , land will b e the point of danger. Let the House reinea ber the American* War,'-the beginning of the French' volationary war—let diens remember little more than ten ye t 7; re ago, when it was a receivedopinion that Ireland was . not +strength but the weak ness of the Empire, when she hardly ape peared to belong to us, an d was a l most looked on ai a provw'