The Sun. — London, England, 1825-03-04 00:00:00

••weilid be eons uitia by the Legislature ; and that Measure, which could alone secure them, be granted to the Cath olics of Wetland. He took that oppor tunity of protesting against the about to come under their Lordship's discussion. The House then divided, and the numbers were — Contents - - 23 Not Contents - - - - 69 Majority against hearing Counsel - SECOIsID READING OF THE MIA.. Upon the re-admission of strangers to the House, The Earl of LIVERPOOL was addressing their Lordships upon the motion for the second retulieg of the Bill. The Noble .fir art said that the measure appeared to him to rest upon grounds an distinct and different from the general question of the Ro rnan Catholic Claims, that he declared, if he were the most eident friend to the concession of those claims, he should still Mira this measure necessary. Their Lordships had alreadyhad some discussion of the question now regularly before them, and the Noble Lord who succeeded his Noble and Learned Friend M that discussion, accused him (Lord Liverpool) of not hay ;nit taken a very manly mode of argument in describing this a.s a general measure, when he must know that it was in tended for the suppression of the Catholic Association. He ra ns when he before addressed their Lordships, as he said w, that the Catholic Association was the chief object and a nas e of the measure. But did the Noble Lord see no diffe eenee between the application of a specific remedy to a spe cific evil, and the application of a general measure in which a remedy for a specific evil was Included ? It was thought necessary that all Associations of all descriptions should be included in the measure, to shew that they wished to ligis late impartially ? but he did not deny, and had not denied, rat the suppression of the Catholic Association was one of its leading objects. It had been said that the acts of the Association did not come within the intention of the Con v_mtion Act; but he thought that part of the question had een entirely disposed of b the argument of his Noble and Learned Friend. lie had no hesitation in declaring, that such a body as this Association was inconsistent with the permanent peace of Ireland, or of any other nation in the work'. He was prepared to admit as broadly as any man the eight of the people to meet and petition, and he considered that right as one of the most important and valuable privileges of the British subject. But he denied that such was the only -object of this assembly. They did not limit themselves to the exercise of the right of petitioning. When they assumed to themselves a permanency of character—when they acted by subordinate agents in levying money upon the country, and in interfering with the administration of public justice—he said that such a body was not only inconsistent with the. peace of the country, but inconsistent with the principles of any Go vernment in the world. If this was the character of the Asso ciation, let •their Lordships look to the circumstances under which it had been formed. The Catholics of Ireland might, indeed, still complain—and bring their complaints to the Bar of the House—that the Legislature had not thought fit to make the remainder of the concessions which would admit them to -all political rights. But he would say that the acts of the pre aunt Government had done more good for Ireland than had been done for more than a century before. Her revenue had been reformed throughout, and in such a manner as to satisfy those who called the loudest for the measure. Her taxation had been reduced to an unparalleled extent, until she paid less taxes than almost any country in the world. England had .taken upon herself the debt of Ireland. The administra tion of justice had been purified, the Magistracy revised, and the Government had lent its aid to put down every abuse that could be detected and exposed. lie enumerated these acts to shew the affectionate disposition of the Govern . mein of the Uni - ed Empire towards that country, and to shew that she had not only been treated with justice but with in • dulgence. In the midst of all this the Catholic Association had risen up—a body of such a nature that it was only said not to come under the Convention Act, because there was no previous delegation from the people ; but the evilwas in the effect pro- Ahmed by the acts of such a body upon the people • and this lie contended, was the same as if it had been assembled under delegation. He did not think it necessary to enter into the par ticular acts of the Catholic Association ; for he grounded his argument upon the general principle of its injurious tendency. He believed there were many innocent, well-disposed persons belonging to it who neither saw nor intended evil. But his ob jection to the Catholic Association was, that no such body could exist without producing evil. He agreed with the Noble Earl opposite, that public bodies ought not to be judged by particular expressions or hasty acts. But it was because he knew that no body of men could be assembled in such a man ner without falling into intemperance, that lie wished to sup press the Catholic Association. He believed that no man who elleard him could think that such an Association as this could •_exist permanently without producing mischief. They might think it a good instrument for gaining a particular object ; but - if that particular question of the Catholic Claims were carried, what security had they that this Association would disperse it self, or stop there ? It was wall known that they had other - objects. They had been told, he knew nothing of it—but it • had been said, that they were to have Catholic Emancipation granted, if that would satisfy them. He repeated that he - knew nothing of such a proposition, more than from common rumour. But what was the answer to this? They did not hear . that the Catholic Association had said they would be satisfied,and abandon the other objects which they had proclaimed. It had —been said• that other Associations existed for the purpose of carrying on prosecutions. But let their whole proceedings and - charactar of this body be taken into consideration, and then let any one tell hint that the history of the country would afford another_ example of the existence of such a body. He came now to what was called the Roman Catholic Rent —not sub acription, but rent. What was the nature of rent ? Did it not •• imply obligation, and was there not in its very essence some ahieg more than subscription ?—(Hear, hear !) But call it rent, call it subscription, call it what they would, a communi cation was kept up with every village in the kingdom, and -money was raised upon the whole Catholic population. This could not ba voluntary. It might be called a voluntary sub scription, or by any other name they pleased, but in a country • so divided by party as Ireland, if it were only as a proof of the • aim, e ity of a man's principles, the contribution could not be re fused. But, in addition to this, who were the Collectors of the Roman Catholic Rent ?—the Roman Catholic Clergy ! And the places where it was collected ?—the Roman Catholic Chapels. There was •nobody who heard him that did not know the influ ence exercised by the Catholic Clergy over their flocks; and, - 'knowing that, was there any man who would tell him that these contributions were not compulsory ? He had been in formed that, in one particular instance, the parties had pro cended to distrain for rent, and that the person so distraining • had been tried at the Quarter Sessions and convicted. He wanted no red book or black book to show, that those who did not subscribe were known. Every man saw what his neigh , • hour did, and was he to be told that nine men out of ten would not richer pay their contribution than be subjected to the fear of being looked upon with an evil eye by the whole neighbour heod. These must be the necessary consequences of the exist ence of such an institution ; and it was not, therefore, upon any particular facts, but upon its general nature, that he would proceed to remove it. The Catholic Association avowedly in seterfered with the course of public justice. He conceived it im possible that any man could laudably make such an inter , ference whatever might be his intentions. And when he was told of their millions, he felt his objection grow the stronger on that account. He remembered hearing an observation from Mr. Fox which struck him as being one of remarkable wis dom, and he had ever since remained of the same opinion. Jt was this :—" I hate the tyranny of the few over the many, • but there is one thing which I abhor still more, and that is the tyranny of the many over the few." He fully agreed in the sentiment, and the more formidable and numerous the e body ' the more powerful was its influence when it took upon • itself to interfere with the administration of justice. Upon -a another point, it was said of the Catholic Association, that in Ole first place it had done no harm ; and secondly, that it had done much good. He wished to know whether it was no harm to excite the alarm which had been felt by a large • portion of the country at its acts ? With regard to the good that it had done, he would say that if it had promoted the tranquillity of Ireland, so much the worse. He looked to the power of doi ng so as a most danzeroua one in such hands. He did not believe there-were any such, but if he could believe that there were individuals in that Association who wished to disturb the county and eventually to overthrow the Govern ment, their Lor slops well knew that nothing was so danger - out as this power of creventing a premature display of their - intentions until their plans were ripe, and that none had a . deeper interest in preserving peace until the proper time ar . r i ve d. Let them look to the example of 1798, at which time it was said that nothing prevented the success of the rebellion but • the premature rising Of -the people. .lf, therefore, they pos sessed the power of p romotin g t r anquillity, they had also the power to promote disorder.; and that was- to. him one of the strongest grounds of objection. But he ascribed the present tranquillity-of Ireland to the growing prosperity. f the cowl try. 'They foun d t hat in England the question of reform, and other subjects of agita tion, had given way before the full ern_ playrnmt and pros perity of our commerce, manufactures, and agriculture. In Ireland there was more idlenes s for such excitements to work upon , but where the cause o f that was em ployment, lie hoped to see the removed by the growth of same effects produced, It was said they could not be sure that this or any measure whic h Parliament could adopt would be effectual. lie had seen measures of. this kind adopted in England and he remembered tha t in 1796, when his Noble and • NI Friend brought in his Bills into the House of Cornaions for putting down Seditious Societies,one of the most able Members of that House, Mr. Sheridan, exercised his in - gemlitY in a sneech against the third reading, b y shewin g ' now the mesas might be evaded. But still, some how or esitherf they ne'rnt were evaded, . and these provisions were effectual. Another example of the same kind was supplied in the vase of the Six Bills. lie would not believe but that in Ireland, although there was a difference in the two countries, yet he would noe,believe but that which Parlia ment passed as law, would he respected. But if he thought the measure would be ineffectual,. still he should humbly recom mend their Lordships to adopt it : because heknew the con sequence would be—if they left this Association in existence, that otherawould rise up of an opposite nature. If they said that one party must associate, they could not prevent the other from doing it. And their ordships must not suppose that the Protestants were so insignificant in number, or that they did not possess wealth, power, and means sufficient to support their Association in turn. Under such circumstances as the country would then be placed in, how could it be possible for justice to be administered ? They must proceed upon the great principle of putting down all Associations. Let them try this measure first, and if it did not succeed in preserving the tranquillity of the country, they would have the satisfac tion of knowing that their best efforts had been made in the cause. His Noble and Learned Friend had said that he should have liked the Bill as well, or better if the Catholic Associa tion had been named in it. He was ready to admit that upon a first view this appeared to be the more manly course, but after much consideration he thought it best not to evince hostility to any particular body by name, but to go upon the great prin ciple of putting down all Associatious whatever. His Lord ship concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill. Lord KING thought that to carry this measure into a law would be to strengthen the comparison which had so long been supposed to exist between Ireland and , Hell ; for what could be more fiend-like than :to take away the defence from the weak, and leave them unprotected from oppression.— The .Noble Lord contended that all the statements and cases upon which the measure was at first supported, had only been abandoned by the Noble Earl because they were no longer tenable. The Noble Earl had said that the conduct of the Go. vemment had been nothing but kind and conciliatory towards Ireland. But he saw that in the year 1323, in the County of Tipperary, there were 497 commitments under the :Insurrec tion Act, and of these 462 were acquitted. For the same pe riod he found that the commitments in all Ireland amounted to 1707, and the acquittals to 1466, This he supposed was what the Noble Lord called the conciliatory kindness of the Go vernment. The Cabinet was divided in every thing bnt in a Bill of Penalties, and then they were always united. Upon this occasion he feared the penal principle would as usual prove the Strongest. Lord TEYNHAM supported the Bill, and said, that he thought the Government would not have done its duty if such an Association had been suffered to continue. Earl GROSVENOR rose, it was quite impossible for him to agree to the proposition of the Noble Lord opposite unless it were coupled with a proposal of conciliation towards the Catholics of Ireland. It was his opinion that they ought to postpone the Question until the restoration of the Catholic Rights and Privileges ; if these were granted the Ques tion when brought forward would be instantly disposed of. He was convinced that if proposals of conciliation were offered to the Catholic Association they would tend to neutra lize it. He had no doubt that the Association had important objects in view, but what these views were few could tell. If a proposal of conciliation had been brought forward along with the measure, the Catholic Association would have been satis fied. He only wished that these proposals should be made, be cause it was his firm belief, that unless they were restored to their rights and privileges, and this would be the first step towards that restitution, there would be no peace in Ireland.— He would relate one circumstance which appeared to him very remarkable, viz. the Noble Marquis (Wellesley) was at the head of Ireland, and _possessed of supreme power in that king dom, he had entrusted to a Noble Lord (Donoughmore), then in the House, his right of proxy. The Catholics had no inten tion of endeavouring to evade the law. The Noble Earl (Liverpool) opposite said, that it would be injudicious not to put an extinguisher on the Catholic Association. This extinguisher, he was of opinion, would have a contrary effect to that which the Noble Earl anticipated. It would render them more firm, more compact, and more decided than before. He • would ask the .Nobla air what would I have been the consequences if the Catholic Association had' been in England ? What had this Association done to create such dismay ? But we now come to the Catholic Rent : the Noble Earl has said that there was something remarkable In the name of Rent ; he (Lord Grosvenor) was not aware of any thing remarkable in the appellation. The Noble Earl alluded to a case of distraining for Rent ; but he could assure their Lordships to the contrary ; the fact was, that no process to that effect had been issued. There were several places where a refusal had been given instead of the rent, but no prods ses had been served. Even the Protestant Clergymen, in enfOrcing the King's letter, extorted the money rather ttuin raised it by voluntary subscriptions. The Catholic Rent certainly was nut illegal; it was intended to protect the Catholics, in Courts of Law, from the oppression of the Orangemen, and even the Judges had borne testimony against them. This circumstance was one of considerable importance, as it tepded to show to what extent their prejudices would carry them. Ile himself had at one time entertained doubts on the subject of the Ca tholic Association. lie could recollect the time when the walls in and about the metropolis were chalked over with inscriptions of "No Popery," "Down with the Catholics," These inscriptions had : been effaced to make room for Day and Martin's and Warren's Blacking, which, in his opinion, was a very good change.—(l laugh.)—lf this Bill had passed eight years ago, it would have produced no sensation, and it was his candid opinion that, if it was to pass now, it would produce no greater effect.—(blear, hear !)—How , many noble and distinguished families had been obliged Ito quit the kingdom of Ireland, and migrate to foreign countries to seek an asylum. What did this arise from but from persecution on account of their religious principles? He could not speak, he said, with any patience on the conduct of Ministers ; they were the persons, to speak metaphorically, who held the thun der and lightning of the Administration. They were the per sons who induced the King to say " Aye" to the Catholics, and " No" to the Catholics of Ireland. If the question of Emancipation had been carried, they would have then their " Io Pram's," and the motto would be " Nunc cst bibeisdoni, none pulsar:dam est terrain libero perie."—(Hear„ hear!) Lord GOSFORD said, there was not a single pettifogging attorney in Ireland, who was not trying to- carry this bill through. It was his firm opinion, he said, that the only way to give peace to Ireland, was to give further concessions to the Catholics. Lord LONGFORD Said, that a large body of the people in Ireland regarded the bill rather as a protective than a coercive measure. The Duke of SUSSEX, in addressing the [louse on a sub ject so important as the present, would crave their Lordships' indulgence for any unusual warmth of expression lie might happen to be betrayed into by the nature of the discussion.,- He begged they would attribute it to the right cause—the in terest he felt in the question, and not con strue it into any dis respect for their Lordships. It was not without diffidence he addressed them ; but he felt he should not be discharging his duty to the country; and supporting the liberty of the subject, as he was bound to do, did he not express his decided opposi tion to the measure now before the House. He did not think a sufficient cause had been shown for the present enactment. — Noble Lords had on former occasions asked for additional in formation. In the case now before their Lordships they had no facts to go upon. It had been stated in the Speech from the Throne that there existed a necessity for the adoption of fresh restrictions and new measures with respect to Ireland ; but no case had been made out—no documents produced— no proofs offered, of that necessity. They were called upon.' to legislate upon the alleged notoriety of the facts. Was hearsay evidence, which would be rejected in a Court of Justice to be received where the liberties of 'the subject were concerned ? Ile thought not; The propriety of granting or refusing Catholic Emancipation constituted no part of the present question. If the House were dis-e posed to put down the Association, let them first inquire into. its nature, and hear evidence, before it determined. He would say to the House, grant the prayer of the Catholics— temove their disabilities—anti you will have put downalle As sociation in the most effectual manner, or rather it would fall to the ground of itself. Noble Lords might smile at the idea, but it was his conviction that it would be the case were they to pursue the course he had mentioned. The Noble Earl had ex pressed his apprehensions of the efforts of the Catholics. The best of things might be abused and carried to extremes; hut the House ought not to legislate upon possible dangers, but positive facts. If that candle were to he placed near the cur tain by an aukward hand, it might set tire to it ; but was such a possibility to induce them to say it would be better to sit in the dark? He was prepared to admit great privileges and ad vantages had been granted to the Roman Catholics since the year 17711 ; and so far from occasioning injury to the State, the country had benefited by the concession. Ile was persuaded. that when the Legislature granted those privileges, it was with the intention of conceding t h e re maining ones , alway s bearing in mind wh a t h e was not now disposed to forget— the safety of the Constitution and religion of the .country. Their Lordships should treat the subject as one of pure le gislation. If they granted the Catholics their Claims, it should be on a conviction of their justice and propriety, al ways looking to the proper guards and securities to be exacted. the State. Cath i o v li e cs were at a The concessions to w hi c h h e h a d alluded were g ranted to msuornroluenntdoefdgrbeyatenaenmd e nemies, and danger to the courage were beginni ng anti our name and to- s ink in the struggle : but the effect of those' Well-timed concessions had been to strengthen and combine the sinking energies of the cou ntr y . Our army and navy were recruited with brave and daring men, and the British fla was again enabl e d t o float triumphant- through the contest, ansi British glory was once more untarnished. .Looking to the immense force necessary ttbe kept up in Ireland, lie would put the question—whether it tould not be better in those days of economy to grant concessie to the Catholics; and by .uniting them with us, enable us toemploy that force elsewhere, or re-. duce it altogether? It waild be better to rely on the' good feeling and unanimity of tic country, than upon a large and expensive standing army. The laws against Roman Catholics had been enacted for poliical reasons, and he doubted not they were •wise ones. Bit he could not see that the same necessity existed for their continuance as for their enact ment, At that time there was a Sovereign who bad, by a bold measure, been. driv.enfrorn the country 14 misgoverned for his arbitrary projects. He had retired to Ireland, where he found protection and 2ssistance. This excited a reason able jealousy against the roman Catholics of that day, and the Legislature had to proect the Protestant succession and re-. ligion by force of arms, ant fight with a party avowedly under the influence of a Catholic ilonarch and the Pope. The conse quence and authority of the Pope were now no more. We our selves had raised bins up frim the abject state to which he had been reduced by Buoriapate. We had set him up—was it to be afraid of him.? - the House would take off the remaining restrictions which affected tie Catholics, they would unite that body to the Sate ; and, sounited, they mi g ht bid defiance to the world. .He was anxints we should take care of our own liberties; if we did not, IR one else would. His conscientious vote should ha given against the Bill now before their Lord ships, reserving to himself he right of watching aver its further progress, and opposing it is every stage. Lord CA VISE u tt y supported the Bill. Earl .G nosy Es op. exphined. Lord Kisc.sTO . N stated that a fact had come to his know ledge worthy the attention of the House: Ile was on the Bench in Ireland when a caarge was preferred against a person for distraining a sheep for Cat folic rent, and upon inquiry it appeared that the sheep had been seized for straying to the pre , mimes of a person who had no concern with the Roman Catholic Question.—(Hear!) • .. The Marquis of LANSDOSITN considered the statement just - made by a Noble Lord was proof that the House were in the dark upon the real -conduct of the Roman Catholic Association. It was, in itself, sufficient to induce their Lord ships to make inquiry.' The Noble -. Marquis, on the general subject before the House. was convinced that the state of the Catholics of Ireland required the consideration of Parliament. Ile was bound to look co the provisions of the bill, and ask himself whether, if it were passed, it would be a remedy for the existing evil. He: was bound to conclude that it would be ineffectual. - Ile did not find there' was any intention to put down meetings of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. On the subject of Rent he would say it was impossible to prevent money from being given and received. The purposes of the Catholic religion could not be carried on without subscription, and it was impossible to stop it. Without troubling the House on the object of the law, he was justified in contending that the evil they attempted to defeat would not be defeated. The root of the evil was in the state of society in Ireland: The people of Ireland were denied the rights of the Constitution, and mixed as they had been with those who did enjoy the privi: leges of the Constitution, expressions of • disappointment and displeasure would naturally break out. The heart would feel, and the pulse beat. It was vain to expect tranquillity in that unfortunate country until the cause - of complaint is removed. A people, equal to any upon the face of the earth, claimed a share in the benefits afforded by a free Constitution. They might be described in the language of Milton, who said— " Think ye, Lords and Commons, what it is you are to govern —a nation not equalled on earth, acute to inwent, subtle in conversatiorr,7•and not void of capacity to accomplish any ob ject.'.' Such : were.the.people of Ireland, and the Noble - Marquis called upon the House to redress their complaint. The occur rence in another part of the Legislature within, the last forty eight hours. ought to induce the ,HOUse to pause before they passed a 'Bill restricting - the libeity. - of the Irish population. The Noble Marquis toaluded, - by aayinglie should rely on the measure to which he. had , alluded, as the means of restoring the people- of.-Ireland to peace, happineas'and the blessings of the Constitotion. The Earl of HARROWRY supported the 'Bill. What would be the state - of Ireland with a rival Parliament ?He to provide for the - tranquillity of Ireland , T he Noble Earl wished the to p ass , because it was the duty of Pa rliament was also CCaitous of passing this Bill, because it was necessary for the benefit of the Roman Catholics themselves. The Ca , tholies ought to rejoice. that they had nn opportunity of proving. I aliat although they had been misled they were still loyal, and ready to submit to, the law. That - .conduct would shew they I were entitled to participate in the b*Ssings of the Constitution. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House '" vided, when. there appeared For the Second Reading Against it - - 1411 - 44 Majority - - - 102 - The Bill was then read a second time, and the House Ad journed at a QUARTER PAST TWELVE. HOUSE OF COMMONS. SHIP CANAL FROM THE ENGLIifI TO THE BRISTOL; CHANNEL. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE obtained leave to bring in a Bill for making a Ship Canal from the English Channel to the Bris tol Channel. It was brought in and read a first time. On the question that it be read a second time, Sir 'l'. LETHBRIDGE then said, he wished to state shortly to the House the nature-and objects of the Bill. The project of connecting the Bristol Channel with the English Channel had been undertaken' by men who were perfectly aware of the great national advantage of the measure. It was a speculation which was not likely to fail for want of the means to carry it into execution, and could not be classed with those delusive projects-of which they daily heard mention, and which were his view highly injurious to the community at large.. T he sum r equired was 2,000,0001., and the whole of that sum had been subscribed. The proposed Canal would pass through a line of country, a part of which was poor land, but the rest very rich. The property to be purchased for this purpose be longed to 1,000 different persons, of these 918 had been ap plied to,• out of which number only 50 were opposed .to the project. It would pass through or near several towns, and would, therefore, be productive of much local as well as' national ad: ant; The channel (which would receive ships of 200 tons burthen) would commence at Seaton Bay (be tween the Start Point and Portland Race) in Devonshire, and would run into Bridgewater Bay, in - the Bristol Channel. At each end would be formed a safe and convenient harbour, so that both in the English as Well as in the Bristol Channel, ves sels would have additional .shelter in bad weather. It would also afford additional facilities to our commerce with Ireland, and would prevent the -delay and danger which attended the navigation sound the Land's End. The ground had been ex amined by able engineers, and also by that skilful and expe rienced officer, Capt. Nicholls, who concurred in opinion with them, that the thing was practicable, and would be of the greatest national advantage. Sir J. YORKE threw it out for the consideration of the le thought, constructer! for be 2 House, whether this would not di m i n i s h our coas ti ng t ra d e , and thereby in part remove th e nursery of our seamen , w h o now acquired skill and expe r i ence i n the difficult navigation round the I.a c n o d u s l E b n o d t . be I si,oleBoo,,otohOlt the canal . • Mr. DICKINSON conceived th at t h e pro j ecte d cana l w o u ld a harbours be great national advantage. Mr. ROBERTSON concurred with _the last speaker, and obserVed, that it would "also prevent the great loss of life and property, which frequently h.appened in the navigation round the Land's-end. ~ • Sir 'l'. LETH BRIDGI,I said, that the canal could not lessen our coasting trade, as no . vessel could commence or terniinate her voyage in it ; every ship would therefore. require in her sea voyage the same number of sailors as before.' With respect to T estimatew was,. s , w i a lo s w1e,y1e7r5,,00 calculated 01. Estimated ti were le c x n P o c t n c a e l 'w t. : h i y e s ° correct rgii nal ; 2,000,0001. would cover - t h e w h o l e expence. B ut w h et h er i t that cost two millions or three millions was of little importance when its general national advantages were taken into consideration.-- The petition was ordered to he read a second time. LIVERPOOL AND MANCHESTER RAIL-ROAD. Mr. S. RICE, in presenting a Petition from Drogheda, in favour of the Manchester and Liverpool Rail-road, assured the House that he spoke th e sense of every commercial body, aye, of every merchant and trader in Ireland, when he stated that the establishment of that Railroad would be of the greatest advantage to the trade and commerce of Ireland----(Hear, hear I). The Petition was read and ordered to be printed. MISCELLANEOUS. Mr. C. CALVEIIT presented several Petitions against the South London Water Works Bill. 1 of measure. At Ettc i t quo y presented a Petition from Leith against the Leith Dock Bill . Mr. DUNDAS was anxious for a full and fair discussion the easure. • - - ' • Bill should ge to a-s econ d Mr. A REH cnom BY said he was himself desirous that the . rea ding.—The Vett t ion was order ed .40 be. printed.... Boston, Lin- Mr. 1-0.-artycoTE presented- aPetition fr'orn Lord J onN P •dered to lie on the table. - colnshire,f-in favour of the . Catherine's Docks' lilt.— Or- Company Bill, which was read a first time. Petition from the Mr. Alderman l'HoursoN presented a Water Works' Ward of Cheap, in faVettr of the London Works' Company. I r red from the sus , The Marquis of 'l' IT4RoY brought up the Aletropolitan Fish . AvlsTocK Was i a di"'a lit fees. tody of the Sergeantat Artns, havin g P at ti Lord Graves be ex i Sir T. LETHBRIDGE moved that ' cused.from the order made .that he should be taken in custody by the Sergeant at Arms, in consequente of the illness of his eldest son.—Granted. _ Mr. S. WORTLEY postponed the second reading •of the Gome Bill till Monday next. Lord A. Hint presented a Petition from Downpatrick, in favour of the Catholic Claims. Lord LYNDSAY presented a Petition from Wigan against the Assessed Taxes. Mr. Di c Krx sots presented a Petition from Somerton against the House and Window lax. Another from Glastonbury, in favour of the County Courts Bill. Another from South Brent against the Assessed Tuxes. • • - Mr. C. DAWSON presented a Petition 1 1 •rom Dublin in favour of Provincial Banks; and a similar Petition from London derry.—Ordered to be printed. 31r. 11. Davis presented a Petition from St. Stephen's, Bristol, against the House and Window Tax.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. KENNEDY presented a Petition from the Notaries Pub lic of Kilmarnock against the Attornies Tax. Mr. C. CALVERT presented a Petition from St. Saviour's, Southwark, in favour of the Repeal of the Assessed Taxes. Mr. BROUGHAM said that the Repeal of the Assessed Taxes would dimish the patronage of the Crown, and save the country from the very vexatious visits of the tax-gatherer.— The taking off other duties did not always reduce the price of the article. Sir R. WILSON objected to the Assessed Taxes as being of an inquisitorial nature. After an observation from Mr. CALVERT, the petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. D. BROWNE presented a petition from certain inbabi:. tants of Ireland, in favour of Provincial Banks.—Ordered to be printed. Sir W. INC LEB r presented a petition from Ilolbeach against the Assessed Taxes. Col. Panm ER presented a petition from St. Michael's, Bath, against the House and Window Tax.—Ordered to be printed. Captain MABERLY presented a petitios from Northampton in favour of the County Courts Bill. 'Mr. IILT.‘II.I presented a petition from Londonderry against the Catholic Association Bill. The lion. Member corrected some statement respecting the appropriation of the Catholic Rent in that City. After a few words from Sir G. HILL and Mr. HUME, the Petition was read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. HUM} begged leave to move the discharge of the no tice relative to the t rish Church, which stood for the 10th of March, and in lieu thereof to substitute the notice of a motion for dispensing with the Sinking Fund.—(A laugh.) - ORANGE ASSOCIATIONS. Mr. BROWNLOW presented a Petition from some Mem bers of an ,Orange Association in Ireland, praying for leave to be heard in answer to the aspersions thrown out against them. After a few words from Lord AnTisostrz and Mr. C. H. HU TCIIINSON, Mr. A BERCRO3I BY expressed his gratification, that from this moment the Orange Societies in Ireland were to be consi dered extinct. If it was the wish of these Societies that every thing relative to them should be made known, he had no ob jection to the Petition being laid before the Committee sitting above stairs on the affitirs of Ireland. But if that step should lead to the revival of antnosities, let the blame lie at the door of those who sought to have their objects and conduct investi gated, when the peace of the country required that both should sink into oblivion. The pass word of these Associations he never.considered a real cause of objection to their formation to continuance, but the tendency which their existence had or keep the public divided. . Mr. PEEL had signified, the other evening, his, unabated opposition to the Catholic Claims; but whatever he thought or felt on that subject, no man had heard with greater satisfaction the intimation given by the Hon. Member for Armagh, tha after the passing of the law now before the Parliament, Orange Societies were totally to cease. He highly applauded their determination not to enter into a contest with the Legis lature, but to submit to the declared sense of. Parliament, and act in conformity not only to the letter but the spirit of the law, The petition referred - to the terms in which lie had spoken of the Orangemen in 1814, but no language of his could be more flattering to them than what the - Honourable Baronet the Member for Westminster had made use of or. Tuesday evening last. At the same time lie thought no degree of loyalty could Compensate for the evil tendency of such associations, of which the very calumnies that were uttered against them af forded a convincing proof. In name and principle, therefore, he trusted they would be abolished as well as in law. He took that opportunity to state, that the reason why many persons of rank and connected with office had continued attached to these Societies, after the Bill which passed that House two years back, was for the sole purpose of exerting their influence to prevent irritation among the inferior members. He thought, however, that every person holding 'Alice was bound to dissolve all connection with Orange Associations. Air. ABERCRO SIBY explained. Mr. BROWN LOW did not say that Orange Associations were at present extinct; but he believed he might confidently say, that as soon as the law was passed, those Associations would come within its spirit and cease to exist. After a few words from Lord A r.TitonrE, the Petition was received, and ordered to be referred to the Committee above stairs. Mr. A BERCROM BY presented a Petition from the Catho lics of Bandon against the Bill for suppressing Associations. Mr. M. FITZGERALD presented petitions from theßoman Catholics of Killeen, and another place in the County of Kerry, against the Unlawful Associations' Bill. The Hon. Member then adverted to the petition presented by the Hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Brownlow) on Tuesday evening, respecting the persecutions endured by a schoolmaster in Kerry from a Catholic Priest, and begged the House would suspend its opi nion on the subject till he should be able to obtain specific in formation as to the alleged facts. Mr. BROWNLOW should be happy to find that the state ments in that petition were not correct ; but, before he pre sented it, Mr. Gordon, whose name was familiar to the House, had inquired into the facts, and assured him he was justified in laying the petition befere the House. APOTHECARIES' BILL. Mr. BROUGHAM brought in a Bill to amend the 55th of the late King respecting Apothecaries' Licences.—Read a first time. On the motion that it be read a second time to-morrow, Mr. BROUGHAM said he wished to correct a misrepresen tation which had gone forth when he moved for leave to bring in the present Bill. It was stated that he had spoken in terms of disparagement of the University of Trinity college, Dub lin ; he was, however, in the recollection of an lion. Member connected with that University, - that he said nothing of the Uni versity of Dublin but what was most respectful. Mr. CROKER bore testimony to the accuracy of the state ment which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had just made, nor was he himself ever more surprised than at the misrepre sentation alluded to, except to find that he himself was made to approve of censure alleged to have been cast on his Alma Mater. Ms. HUME said it was erroneous to suppose that any of the Colleges in Scotland, except those of Aberdeen and St. Andrews, granted degrees without personal examination. lie had also the pleasure to inform the Douse, that the 3lareschal College of Aberdeen had lately resolved to reform itself in that particular, and he trusted the alteration would be extended to the College of St. Andrews likewise. Mr. BROUGHA3I thought nothing could be more satisfac ectlamt to in t t i o i r e yt i h e a rn n b e tl r i e for fa ll c i t 0 j n u tr s o t se m , e fo n r tio u n n e f d ort b u y ni l t i t i e s ly H t o h t e i F; the Aber. for i l e i k n - e i t n h e r s e t a o l r i k t y in o n t l l i y e a fa t t b a l e e h , a " share s o ' of t he E s t el l g i n I Tl b a u ~r g w h h i deer and St. Andrews. Mr. P. GLIENFELL moved for Returns of the number of Ships which had entered th e Port of London for the l ast year, and also of those which ha d entered the several Docks during the same period. ASSESSED TAXES. Mr. MABERLY presented a Petition from the Parish of' Marylebone for a Repeal of the Assessed Taxes. Mr. 31ABERLY then rose, pursuant to the notice he had given to move the Repeal o f t he Assessed Taxes, and assured f.he douse that he believed if . the whole country were polled, 11y out of every 100 persons would be found in favour of the measure. However eloquently the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer h ad ' stated hi s Financial Plan to the House a few days ago,. he (Mr. Maberly) thought he could show that the Right Hon. Gentleman's measures were at variance with h i s own \ principles. If the people were ten tim es b etter o ff than they were, in his opinion they h a d a t l east a r i ght to be heard in support o f t heir prayer for a repeal of the Assessed T axes . In bringing the subject before th e House, he should no t attempt the arduous task of following the Right Hon. the . Chancellor of the Exchequer through the details of his state ment—but briefly show, first, the nature and bearing of the Bight Hon. Gentleman's measures; second, that those Inca surer t w t h h i e eh b n es e t t f 3 o i r t. at iv lo i p a. - s t i u o r n e s ; f t o h l i l r o d w l y in , g h l e i i ;h o o w o n l d p r o n n c t i r p a l s e t s berly) proposed with that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; and, fourthly, show that a greater reduction of taxes might be effected than was now contemplated. The first article on which the duty was reduced was Hemp, but as 15 per cent. still re mained on its importation, and that he considered almost a prohibition on a raw material, whi c h, t o enc ourage our own i industry, ought to be admitted on the easiest terms. The next article was Coffee, whichonoumb might 1 e Gentleman b econsidered and was not in such general u se as to ren d er t h e re mission of ' the duty a relief to the publi c . Th e next ar ti c l e was Wine, which, although the Right Honourable inge niously endeavoured to con vert i nto a necessar y, instead of e enlan h a had luxury, luxury,—but he (Mr. Maberly) considered that it was the . surrender of 230,0001. per annum to the affluent alone,—and" yet to prevent a large loss of Revenue, it was calculated that everry person who before drank one bottle, would now drink two. The next article was British Spirits, and here the Right Honourable Gentleman laid great stress on the expediency of preventing smuggling,—which certainly made a deep im pression on the House. But there were many other articles, the remission of the duty on which would produce the same effect, without demoralizing the peOple. - Last year they had - legislated by halves when they reduced the duty on spirits in Ireland and Scotland to 2s. 6d. and kept it at 10e. 6d. in Eng land. They had merely removed the sniugglere.from the moun tains to the 'tanks of the Tweed,—and even now there was a duty of 6s. per gallon on English, above Irish or Scotch Spirits. To be effectual the duties ought to be equalized. The next article was Rum,-but upon that he should have a future op portunity of stating his opinion. He now came to the Assessed - Taxes, which the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to repeal, but although themost vexatious, perhaps, were given up, good was not done to the extent required.' The next article was iron ;. and he only wished that Hemp had been laced on the same. - footing as to duty with that commodity. lie should now ask, would not the remission of 'duty on Tea have given more re lief than - of that on wine and spirits. Would not tea too be paid for by our manufactures as well as wine, either directly or indirectly ? The one, however, tended to demoralize, the other to the comfort of the people—the one would give general, the other partial relief. Another article to which he should allude, was Tobacco. It yielded annually a revenue of 2,500,0001., and was much more an • article of -necessity than , spirits, while its' increased consumption would occasion an increased elportation of manufictures in return. If smug gling was an evil, there was no branch of trade in which it existed to a - greater extent than in the tobacco trade, or in which it would be more surely destroyed by a reduction of duty. Other articles ,be might also mention—soap, candles, hides, tallow, indigo, and cotton wool, on all of which. the . duties were enormous, anti the reduction of which would be ,mere judicious than those proposed by the Right Hon. the Chancellor ' of the Exchequer. He should now refer to the main object of his motion, the Repeal of the whole of the Assessed Taxes. Some persons only demanded a surrendei of the Window and House Duties, but if the whole were aban doned the country would get rid of one entire establishment, and save an annual expence of about 300,0001.. There would then remain but the Customs, the Excise, . the Stainps, and the Post Office, as the collection of the Land Tax might be trans ferred to one of those establishments The people were anxious to get rid of the Assessed Taxes altogether ; .and in support of the correctness of the judgment, be might to quote a speech of a Noble Lord in 1823, in the other House of Parliament. The • Honourable Gentleman then read a passage from a speech, we believe of the Earl of Liverpool. stating the obvious relief which a remission of direct taxes afforded to the public. ' The duties en IVindows and Houses were a partial property. tax amounting to twenty or thirty per cent. For the average of the next three years • he believed the Right ,Honourable - Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had estimated. the Sinking Fund at 5,600,0001. per annum. He, however. was prepared to demonstrate that the Sinking Fund was a per-' fect fallacy. - From the year 1715, when first introduced by Sir Robert Walpole to the present time, the Public Debt, instead of being reduced, had increased. In 1816 it was 868 millions', and three years ago when a Noble Lord (the Marquis of Lon donderry) made a Financial Statement for the then. Chancellor of the Exchequer, lie alleged that a Sinking Fund of-five mil lions was indispensable to the Public Credit, and to pay off the above sum. Fourteen days afterwards, however, the same' Noble Lord came down, and under the plea of disposing of what he called a dead weight, added an annuity of two mil lions eight hundred thousand pounds, or a capital of 60 mile lions to the 868 millions previously existing. Subsequently, one of the very first acts of the Right Hon. Gentleineri opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) when he came into office, was to bargain with the Bank for that annuity, and absolutely to thus give up two millions out .of the five millions a-year of the Sinking Fund, which Ministers had declared to be a sacred appropriation. What then was the fact, that adding the above 60 millions to the 868 millions existing in 1816, the National Debt had since actually increased twelve millions, and now amounted to 868 millions. It was manifest that greater advan tages would be derived from giving tip the Sinking Fund in re duced taxes, than by retaining it under the idea of paying--off our burdens. The energy and industry of the country,im pelled by the remission since the war of twenty millions a-year of direct taxes, had enabled Government to reduce - the Five and Four per Cents. and save a great sum annually in interest of the Debt. He should, on those grounds, propose that the Sinking Fund be relinquished ; and if not the whole of the Assessed Taxes, at least that of the Window a'. s . d house duties should be remitted. He gave credit to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite for the uprightness and honesty of his intentions in the course he pursued. He was satisfied. he believed that he was doing the best for -the country, and be certainly did not by his measures seek the popularity at his command.• All he (Mr. Maberly) claimed, was to have the same justice done to his motives on the present occasion. After apologizing for detaining the House so long, the Hon. Mem ber stated that the whole amount of Assessed Taxes which lie should move to remit, was 3,970,0001. per annum. Ile had divided them into a series of resolutions : in the first of which were embraced the ditties on windows and houses, in order that those who disapproved of repealing the others now, might have an opportunity of voting for their remission. Before he so; down, he must observe, that notwithstanding all the praise any' support which the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exche quer's propositions had received in that House, outside its walls; he found nothing of the sort. The Hon. Gentleman then move' the first resolution. Mr. LE YCESTER seconded the motion, and in an inaudibl e tone of voice enlarged on the positive and negative advantages' which its adoption would confer on the public. He did not, however, mean to question the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, than which nothing could be more enlightened , more word's , of support; but he would abolish the Sinking Fund, and with it the Assessed Taxes. There weretwo oast of discharging debt—paying it off, and increasing the wealth of the debtors ; and he conceived the latter was the best mode fot" the nation to pursue. A very general feeling existed again St. the Corn Laws, anti he for one wished to see them altered,. bu t lie thought that could not be done till the Assessed Taxes were repealed. Mr. IIEATHCOTE should support the motion within cer tain limits, because he was sure the country deserved it. He shOuld not, however, attempt to abolish the Sinking Fund, be cause if the plan continued, it went to pay off our debt; while, should war occur, it was a means of enabling the count*" t o e ' t , meet the inquiry without laying on an additional farthing taxes. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did / I ° C think it necessary to trouble the House at any length in or posing the motion of th e H on . G ent l eman oppos i te . H e w oo confess, however, he was somewhat surprised to find that the sole ground upon which the remission of the Assessed. Te, was proposed, was th e Ab o li t i on o f t h e Si n ki ng , F un d. A': .though the Member for Aberdeen had that very 'night give' notice of a distinct propo s i t i on o f th e same nature f or next Thursday, it did seem strange, that without having laid all basis in the first instance, to prove the expediency of •surren' Bering the Sinking Fund, the Honourable Gentle Man (M r ; Maberly) should proceed to argue a point which -involve(' a decision of that question. His plan at the - same time was not brought forward without some ingenuity ; for by taking. the stems of it separately, h e h o p e d t o ca t c h th e s upport 0; those Members to parts of it who might be averse to adop t it in the aggregate. Y e t h e argue d t h e su bj ect, an d, indeeot confined his proposition to a repeal of the whole of the sensed Taxes--laying peculiar stress upon the Window an d House Duties. By the way, too, there was another motion specifically directed against the latter taxes, to come on in few days at the instance of the Hon. Member for Westminste r ' The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Maberly) had done him sh e honour to say, that lie believed him to a c t s olely With &view "" the benefit of the country, and he (the Chancellor of the J. chequer) w a s equa lly w illi ng t o a d m it t h a t no consideration of popularity, or connected with a general election, influenced 1 , 1 , e feelings in submitting this motion t o th e H o u se . Honourable Gentlemen, though he disapproved -of his plan' had not contested any of his principles. He did not even sI I J that any of the duties proposed to be remitted should be r e ; tained, but by getting rid of the Sinking F un d h e w i s h e d to b e able to superinduce a total repeal of the whole of the Assess& Taxes on the plan already laid before Parliament. He saw n ; however, that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was I'",„ nr consistent tiele hit would oureducinghalfpenny p fifteener p ound, to dut: bo ,l ,s o o u f nt t ed he Hemp ; and it was certainly true, that at the price of per c e a n : * a as lo to we b r e p e e x r p e e e c n t t e a d ge tl t t i a ta t n tl i me t p r r io i w ce nopfphearenlell4' from the increased demand, would rise, and then the halfpel p th e a r t po su u m nd . He was however given to understand by those who, as 1 ,.." as their own interest was concerned, understood the 0 . ..1 ject well, that the reduction made was considered gr_f t - D boon, and had given satisfaction, The next article ‘r, which the Honourable Gentleman found fault was COu ee 'l which he asserted was not in great use among the public. -„ a (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not know on what grat t `fe the assertion was advanced,—bilt he believed Coffee. was in vela general consumption, anti but for the high duty on it, We ll have been much more so. Since the duty was raised, the can" sumption had no doubt fallen off, and it was a principle of e te e t urged on the other side, and which he himself admitted, tr,"; the criterion of a tax being too high, was to find that it J." peded consumption. Nor was coffee, as the Hon: Member Or posed, a luxury to the poor, but an article of necessity. 4 these reasons, because it w ars g i v i ng t h e poor a c h ea p wholesome beverage; be cause, m a mercant il e sense, it . 1)!-:.; motet commerce: and be cause i t cou ld b e ra i se d i n t he AY:a Indies by less severe slave labour than sugar, he had redofrr - o the duty on coffee. He re the gm Gentlemp . tnlked of Winec