The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-04 00:00:00

justified in calling the measure which had ken brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers a revolutionary mea sure. When the present measure was first brought for ward by the Noble Lord .opposite oa Tuesday night, be (Mr. Hobhouse) sitting as he did in that region of the House (on the Opposition benches), which had been his abode from his first entrance into Parliament up to the present moment, could not help observing (and in making the disclosure he supposed he did not maintnit any breach of confidence, or violate what was due to proper privacy) with astonishment, not the indignation, but the delight With which the proposition of the Mile Lard, as he un folded it to the House, was received by the Hon. Members who sat around him. The Hon. Members well knew what were dangerous sul jests to propose; they had themselves experience in that way, and they viewed the proposition of the Noble Lord as one calculated to drive out the present Minister and replace themselves in their former situa tions. They appeared then to think that the day was not distant when they were to regain their old placer, and when his (Mr. Hobhouse's) friends opposite would be sent back to that side of the House to advocate still, but with less chance of success, the rights of the people. I n the conversations which passed amongst those Hon. Mem bers while the Noble Lord (John Russell) was speaking, be (Mr. Hobhousej heard nothing about the measure being a revolutionary one; be heard nothing from any one of them but the language of con gratulation.—(Hear, hear.) — Since, however, that measure had been denounced by his Hon. Friend the Member for Corfe Castle as a revolution ary measure, it had been also denounced by the Hon. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge; and the lion. Ba ronet, the representative for the University of Oxford, had shadowed it out as something equally as bad as the murder of Charles I. He had heard much abuse levelled against this measure, but he begged to remark, that in the way of argument, or proofs, or document, he had heard no thing urged against the proposition of his Noble Friend opposite. Nothing had been adduced to prove that if this Bill passed the people of England would lose their consti tutional rights,—that the Monarchy would be destroyed, — a nd that the three estates of the reahn—the King, Lords, and Commons—would cease to exist. To listen to the language which had been employed by some of Owe who, opposed this measure, one would think that these, if not more dreadful consequences, would result from this Bill; but where were the proofs to substantiate such absurd asset.- tions ? His Hon. Friend (the Member for Curie Castle) had adverted to the authority of Mr. Huskisson. He did not mean to undervalue the authority of Mr. Huskisson, and, indeed, for some time previous to his death, in his ca• reer of Parliament, he believed that he (Mr. Hobhouse) was More inclined to pay attention to the authority of Mr. Hus kisson than his Hon. Friend was. As to Mr. Huskisson's opinions, however, upon Parliamentary Reform, lie (Mr. Hobhouse) had never participated in them. He had never been the disciple of Mr. Huskisson, and if his Hon. Friend meant to convey a sarcasm in turning towards him (Mr. Hobhouse) when he quoted the authority of Mr. Huskisson, it was a rather waggish mode of attacking some of the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—(A laugh.) As to the authority of Mr. Huskisson, therefore, on this subject, he (Mr. Hobhouse) begged to say with all due respect, that it was no authority for him. Hie lion. Friend had also quoted the authority of Mr. Pitt, he had quoted from one of the most distinguished speeches that that marvellous man had ever made,—lie alluded to the speech pronounced by Mr. Pitt on the 31st of January, 799, on the subject of the Legislative Union. Now, in answering his Hon. Friend, he thought that he could pro duce a most complete answer from the lips of that same great man, to the learning as well as the law with which the House had been favoured by the Hon. and Learned Member far Boroughbridge. What did Mr. Pitt say to the right of the Parliament of England and Ireland, to take away corporate rights, and to disfranchise such bo roughs as it might think fit? Let the House mark the masterly and overpowering manner in which he disposed of the trumpery precedent which was then set up as it had been now, that the Parliament of the country had no right to alter the represesentation of the country,—that it was a fundamental principle of the Constitution that the Legis lature could not entertain the question as to the disfran ehisement of boroughs, and the taking away of corporate rights, unless in cases where delinquency had been proved. What was Mr. Pitt's answer on that occasion to such arguments ? He (Mr. Hnbliouse) should read ;t to the house from his speech ueon the Union. He might, in passing, remark that he could not possibly divine, while looking into Mr. Pitt's speeches that morning for the extract which he - was about to read, that lie and his Hon. Friend the Member for Corfe Castle, should be poaching in the same manor—(A. laugh)— and that they should have gone to the same speech for their authority. The decisive passage which he should quote from Mr. Pitt would settle, as far as authority could settle any thing, the arguments which had been put forth last night by the Hon. and Learned Member for Borough bridge, on this point, and which, indeed, had been already tolerably well settled by the Attorney-General. And in quoting that, passage he would beg to say, that though Mr. Pitt might not have been as learned in the subtleties and difficulties of the law, as the Hon. Member for Bo roughbridge, he was at least as high an authority in mat ters connected with English history and the principles of &Institutional government.—(Hear, bear.) The following was the opinion of Mr. Pitt upon this subject :—" If the principle of the incompetency of Parliament to the deci sion of the measure he admitted, or if it be contended that Parliament has no legitimate authority to discuss and de cide upon it, you will be driven to the necessity of recog nzing a principle, the most. dangerous that ever was adopted in any civilized state. I mean the principle that Parliament cannot adopt any measure new in its nature, and cf great importance, without appealing to the consti ruent and delegating authority for directions. It that doe trine be true, look to what an extent it will carry you. If such an argument could he set up and mainta'ne I, you acted without any legitimate authority when you cr eated the representation of the principality of Wales, or of either of the counties palatine of England. Every law that Parliament ever made, without that appeal, either as to its own frame and constitution, as to the qualification of the electors or the elected, as to the great and fundamental point to the succession to the crown, was a breach of treaty and an act of usurpation. If we turn to Ireland itself, what do gentlemen think of the power of that Parliament, which, without any fresh dele gation from its Protestant constituents, associates to itself all the Catholic electors and thus destroys a fundamental distinetion on which it was formed ? God forbid that I should object to or blame any of these measures. lam only stating the extent to which the principle, that Pallid snent has no authority to decide upon the present measure, will lead ; and if it be admitted in one ease, i: must be admitted in all. Will any man say, that (although a Pro testant Parliament in Ireland, chosen exclusively by Pro testant constituents, has, by its own inherent power, and without consulting those constituents, admitted and com prehended the Catholics who were till then, in fact, a se parate community) that Parliament cannot associate itself with another Protestant community, represented by a Protestant Parliament, having one interest with itself, and similar in its laws, its constitution, and its established re tigion ? What must be said by those who have at any time been friends to any plan of Parliamentary Reform, sad particularly such as have been most recently brought forward, either in Great Britain or Ireland ? Whatever may have hove thought of thee propriety of the measure, I never heard any doubt ofthe competency of Parliament tta eonsirler and discuss it. Yet I defy any man to maintain the principle of those plane, without contending that, as a Member of Parliament, he pomestes a right to concur in disfranchising those who sent him to Parliament, and to select others, by whom he was not elected, ha their stead." Having read that extract, be should suppose that they had now completely done with the arguments about corporation robbery, and about the incompetency of Parliament 'to deal with corporate franchises.—(Loud cheers. )—lie thought that he had now done with the law with which the Hon. Member frit Boroughbridge had favoured them, with regard to this point. Again he would say, that with respect to the details of Chancery practice, he would not piece the authority of Hr. Pitt in competition with that "f the Hon. Member for Boroughbridge ; but Mr. Pitt knew something of constitutional law, and he did not think that there was any thing illegal iu the disfranchise= Mt" of ef'tinsrate boroughs, or that such a proceeding on the part r h arliatrient would: be looked upon as an att spoliation and r o h‘ ey nutelf —(Cheers.)—Mr. Pitt rill More strongly expressed .himself ago st the principle insisted _upon by .the Learned Membe r for Boroughbridge, in the passage immodiately succeeding that which lie (Mr. Hob . house) had quoted. " I et a ' ur. continued Mr. Pitt, " that no sufficient distinction, it;: ' Point of principle, can be successfully maintained fur n d :ngle momint; nor should I deem it necess ar y A upon th e a e t t i : o i ilt . point iu the manner I do, were I not convinee d in part, with all those false and dan iody s notions on the subject of Government which hays. too prevalent in the world. At may, in fact, be traced toe that gross perversion of the principles of all political societ T which rests on the supp osition tha t there.exists c o a t i_ nually in every government a sovereignty in abeyance (as it were) on the part of the people; ready to be called forth on every occasion, or rather on every pretence,whe n it may suit the purposes_ of party or faction, who are the advocates of this doctrine, to - Support an occasion for its exertion." It was thus -that Mr. Pitt disposed of that prineiple, sn that it would be found that he (Mr. Hol). house) was traveling to the same constitutional end as bia ' Hon. Friend, only it happened that they were going by different roads. Ilis Learned and Hon. Friend had fallen into the most unfortunate trap that had been laid for him by the Hon. Memb2r for Boroughbridge, with respect to the Parliament in the d lys of Oliver Cromwell. He bad warned the Learned Ex-Attorney-General last night of his error, but there were some gentlemen that would not take advice, and Last of all from an enemy. If the Learned Gentleman had only extended his reading of Mr. Pitt's saeech, and had c :cried kis reading still further, be would not have quoted that portion of that celebrated harangue. If he had only looked into a page of Hume—certainly a very po pular and commonly read author,—he would have found a full and accurate statement, why Oliver Cromwell dis . missed the Parliament in the short space of eighteen days. —(llear, hear.) So far from the Learned and Hon. Gen man's assertion being founded in truth, he would have learrie from the historian that Cromwell dismissed that • Parliam-nt for the very reasons fur which some of those seho heard lii7n would wish - to have just such a Parliament now. It was because he found by their proceedings that the Parliament completely represented the people of Eng land, and was swayed by the public voice, and influenced by the good of the country. What was it that Parliament ' did ? As Hume said, these very intemperate popular gen tlemen did not want to flatter the government of the Pro tector, but they wished to begin to pull to pieces t' e in strument of government, and Cromwell in the Privy Council said, that although they were called together to con sult for the good of the country, they forgot the authority by which they were called together, and that therefore they should sit no longer. This was because they really were the representatives of the people of England, and bad the good of the people at heart—they were the representa tives whom Lord Clarendon said were worthy of more war rantable authority, and deserving of better times,—they were, in fact, representatives whom Cromwell's sagacity at once saw were totally incompatible with tyranny. No man better knew how to speak lucidly and forcibly than Cromwell when he found it necessary and wished to be understood ; and, on the contrary, no man knew better how to involve a speech or pet plex a subject—not even the Hon. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge.—( A laugh.) This was the declared and open reason why Cromwell dissolved this Parliament, and this was the reason of Clarendon's giving such an opinion of that assembly. The Parliament was tit for the people of England, but not fit fit the purposes of Cromwell. That was a popular Parliament, a Parliament solely and entirely for the people, Cromwell soon found out ; and in eighteen, days he pronounced it to be an un manageable assembly. Had Cromwell lived in these times, it would have been quite another thing.—(A laugh.)— lie would have found out the modern secrets of managing a Parliament. He would have gone on allowing the pleasing contention of parties, with sometimes one set of gentlemen in office, and sometimes another set of gentle men out of office, whilst the people and their interests were left out of consideration. The Learned and Hun. Mem ber for Boroughbridge was excessively jocose on the pre ceding evening, and, with all due admiration of the Learned Member's talents, he (Mr. Hobbouse) must say that he lied never passed a happier hour in his life than during the Learned Gentleman's speech.—(A laugh,)_ The Learned Gentleman had talked to the House about Oliver Cromwell's and Pride's purge, and tried to saddle the term upon the Noble Lord, the present Paymaster of his Majesty's Forces. It hail not, however, been con venient to the Learned Gentleman to consider what the Parliament really was that Pride had applied his medi cine to, and he had talked of it as the regicide Parlia ment. The Hon. Member for Oxford had claimed a sort of privilege of making an ex officio blunder upon the occasion, and had indulged himself in a mutilation of the History of England, as the University of Oxford itself had done before now. The Hon. Member for Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis) ba , l said, that if ever the country had had a popular House of Commons, it was that which ended in murdering the King. Now this, he conceived, was not the time to talk thus of crowned heads, dead or living, for they had enough to do to keep their stations without further endangering their position—(Loud cheers fro:n the opponents of the Bill, which were re turned from the other side.) He spoke advisedly. He was fully aware of what he had said. The reason why he had objected to the words of the Hon. Memb( r was, because, he thought that the error ought to be contradicted, avd it might be contradicted with all the good humour of the Hon. Member for Boroughbridr, who at another time might, without great mischief, enter again into the dis cussion. If he had been aware of the cheer, he should say the same thing again. It was not the time when it was ne cessary to slur over what tended to detract. from those un. rirtunite men who were placed by birth, or other rireurn stances, upon thrones. He might, had he been disposed to quibble or be captious, have quarrelled with the Hon. Member's phrase of " murdering the king." The Hon. Member for Oxford perfectly well knew—for he (Mr. Hobhouse) well knew his learning. and it did not require much to know that—(A laugh)—that the unfortunate and ill-advised monarch, Charles 1., met his doom, not in con sequence of any determination of the democracy to put him to death. It was very well known by this time, —it vas not a very modern discovery,—who it was that put the King to death. So thoroughly were understood all the circumstances that led to that event, so well were known the motives, views, and objects of those who in fluenced or were concerned in the transaction, that he felt astonished that the Hon. Member for Oxford should com mit himself by such a mis-statement before the House, and in the eyes of the country. Was it not known to every hotly the least acquainted with history, that when attempts were made to come to terms with Charles I , it was un fortunately discovered, that. at the very time that the treaty was pending, the King was preparing to sign the compact, with a mental reservation that when he should .be placed upon the throne by these means he did not in tend to stand by his bargain ? He was therefore put to death on a principle of self-defence, and by those who were guided by the paramouat consideration of their own purposes. The Monarch was brought to the scaffold by an usurper, and not by a democracy; and well did the Hon. Member fur Oxford know the fact. But did not the Hon. Member likewise know that the Parliament was not what he had termed it—a popular Parliament ?- It %vas in every respect a borough Parliament. It was a Parliament composed of only sixteen Members for coun ties, six Members for cities, and all the remaining Mem hers were fur boroughs : only 84. Members coin ' posed tl,e Parliament that condemned Charles to death, and mere than sixty of those Members were fur boroughs. The Learned Member, therefore, was wrong, entirely wrong, in a sserting that it was a popular patty or a popular Parliament that brought the King to the block. If he travelled from. ancient to modern tunes, the Hon. Member for Oxford . would be found equally wrong in all his fact, and equally confused and mistaken in his view of them. He had said that whatever domestic or popular assemblies had been tried, they had bean found in practice to be utterly inconsistrnt with a monarchy. - What were the two instances he had quoted to make out such an extraordinary opinion ? First, the Hen. Member had quotel the recent political history of Spain. Ile (Mr. llobhouse) would ask whether it was the Curbs of Spain that dethroned Ferdinand VII. He was dethroned not by popular violence, but because the French army, in violation of all the treaties of Eur Ope, entered Spain, not being prevented by this country, as unquestionably it ought to have been. This was the reason why the power of the monarchy anl of the democracy was found incompatible; and until the French invaded the country, the kingly functions and the rights of the popular assembly had been found perfectly consistent, as the Constitution of England had long shown them in every respect to be. Next the Hon. Member referred to Sicily, and had triumphantly asked why the experiment had not succeeded there. Ile would answer, for the best of all reasone, because Lord Caetlereagh's settlement of Europe (of which Europe was still enjoying, wed likely for some time to enjoy, the fruits) had not tended to any settlement, but to revo . This was the reason why popular assemblies had pot recently been foUnd compatible with tl.e monarchy. He had thought that the merits of the Frenchrevolu ; Lion of 1830 bad lesen settled in every man's mind. ; He had thought that all parties in that House had acknow ledged tbat it was as experiment which the French people Were not only justifted in making, but that it was one which they were imperiously called upon to make, and he was extremely sorry that any individual could now be found capable of blaming it. If that experiment had not succeeded, and if France were not now tranquil, it was not because the Parliament of France was too much the repres ntative of the people, but because the people com plained of the very'reverse. This was the cause, and the sole cause, why there were likely to be any disturbances in France. - He had listened to all that had been said upon the subject of the present debate with attention, and be had not heard one single argument, or any thing worthy the name of argument, to show that there was any danger whatever that could arise, or was likely to arise, from adopting the project of the Noble Lord. The Hon. Mem ber for Newport, who had been Member for Wootton Bas set (Mr. Horace Twiss) had expressed himself very much alarmed lest the present plan of Reform should throw the elective franchise into the hands of shopkeepers and attor , ni es• He should like to know where the elective franchise rested at the present moment. Were there any indivi duals in the country that now exercised so much power at elections people were as very this n proscribe d butbe d d notcla:rs,tl see a why that gn t to rni ee. Soeme. tleman, of all others, the Hon. Member for Newport, should be so nice respecting attornies. Of all men, the Hon. Gentleman had least reason to -be restive on this point. By the Bill of the Noble Lord, the elective fran chise would be thrown into the hands of that class who ought to possese it,—namely, of people of a certain de gree of property, and of those who had the greatest hold upon the higher claSses.... This was as good and as proper a basis of representation as could be proposed.— He could net understand why so many Honourable Members had expressed their surprise when the measure bad been proposed. Did those who heard him know what the plan of Reform had been which Mr. Pitt had proposed to that House? Mr. Pitt lead proposed to leave out 160 Members from the House, and to take away and disfranchise 36 boroughs ; and nobody had o bjected to his scheme upon the grounds of its being a revolutionary mea sure. When Mr. Pitt had changed his opinions as to Par liamentary Reform, and when Mr. Grey, in the year 1797, had brought forward in that House his project of reform. ing the representation of the people, Mr. Pitt did not ob ject to Mr. Grey's scheme, or to any part of it, upon ' the ground of its being revolutionary. All he had said was, that it would not do, just at that time, to make such a change, but his own opinions were too well known for hint to obj ct to the motion on the ground of its hieing in consistent with the Constitution. The Learned and Hon. Member for Boroughbridge had even quoted Mr. Fox in support of his opinion. Mr. Fox, in speaking of the pro cession of the Goddess of Reason at Nottingham, had merely said, that had he been there, he should have looked to the security of the skirts of his coat, and he objected to the people of Nottingham being deprived of their rights on account of the disturbances that had taken place in that town. The opinion was pelf. ctly compatible with any scheme that should give the franchise of Not ting,hatn to the adjoining hundred, or take it away from it. Mr. Fox, speaking of Mr. Grey's plan of Reform in 1797, had sa'd, that the plan might be called a radical Reform —that 'it changed without the destruction of any esta blished right,—it restoted what had been injured by abase and reinstated what time had Mouldered away. No man could complain of genuine property being assailed, and he used the expression genuine property to distinguish it from what was called property, but which was not genuine. As far, then, as Mr. Fox's opinions went as authority, he had shown that they were direely opposed to those of the Hon. Member for Code Castle (Mr. Bankes.) He could excuse a little warmth upon such an occasion, and he should even say with a French author, that he never knew a kingdom lost so gaily, for, as Caesar hail said on one occasion, that he fought not for victory, but for'exist ence, those who opposed Reform . might make the same exclamation. He did not mean to say that gentlemen of a certain description would be excluded from the House if a Reform took place. The anti-reformers had shown such resolute and able advocacy of a worthless and sinking cause, —they had evinced such ability in support of what was odious, and such courage in defence of what' was weak and contemptible,—that he could not help thinking they would be found hereafter among those whom a free constituency would choose for the advocacy of their rights. He bad said before, and he now repeated it, that he did not think that by this or any plan of Reform the com plexion of the House as to the Members returned to it would be much changed. The motives, however, that sent men into it would be totally different—(lean). — Let Parliament he reformed,—let it be restored to its an cient constitutional principle, by the plan now proposed by the Noble Lord, the Paymaster-General of his Majestys forces, they would still have the best men in that House that constituents could find, for the support of their inte rests anal the defence of their rights. He would beg those whose disputed this to tell him whether they really thought that there was any peculiar and egregious igno rance in the people of England, or in any people, to make them unable to judge of those who were best able to serve them. The people had wisdom enough to get the best at-ilities they could obtain for every purpose, and they would likewise get the best they could to serve them as Members of Parliament. He was not aware that the people of England, in contradistinction to the people of the boroughs, had shown any such peculiar marks of igno rance and folly ; lie was not aware of their possessing any peculiar quality which incapacitated them for the impor tant trust which they were called upon to exercise. He well knew that wherever he could discover a popular con stituency, he could discover something like adequacy to the great duties it called forth, and the first and most indispensable of all qualities in such cases was honesty,—a quality that appeared to have been entirely forgotten or lost sigdt of by those who talked so much of introducing clever men into that House. --(Hear, hear.)—lt was scarcely possible to believe that any gentleman was sincere when he expressed an appre hension that a system of public rectitude and intelligence in electors would give vice and ignorance an ascendancy in the choice of representatives, and that a system of perjury, and bribery, and corruPfron, was essential to the success of virtue and knowledge. Why should such a feverish anxiety upon this subject be . expressed? With respect to men of talents, doubtless capacity was one of the necessary qualifications of a Member of Parliament; but he had seen as many instances since he had been in Parliament of ra pacity being used in a wrong as in a right direction. Who, in the name of wonder, would approve of any sys tem or scheme that sent men of talent into that House, if these gentlemen of talent were placed there under circum stances that rendered it probable that they would do more of harm to the country than good ?—(Cheers.)—lf he ran over the list of the clever men, he could show the House that the necessity was to make men speak honestly the sentiments of their constituents; or to retire from the representation. If a MeMber 'of Parliament differed from his patron, he thought it necessary to take off his hat, make his bow, and retire from his seat. He thought it necessary to consult his patron's views and opinions, and this, in, his (Mr. Ilobloniie's) opinion, was the best of all answers to what was called virtual re presentation. There was no such thing as virtual representation with a patron. The patron must be listened to, —lie must and would be obeyed : he would hear of no nonsense about virtual representation. Sir W. Jones bad re marked that virtual representation was actual fully. The Hon. Member for Oxford had said, there was no necessity for a Member's consulting his constituents, and that he would go on in the stern path of what he deemed his duty, in spite of any constituents whatever. This ought not to be the principle upon 'which Members should lie returned to that House ; nor was it a principle upon which any patron of a borough ever put his Member into the House. He saw no danger whatever in the plan pro posed by the Noble Lord, although an alarm had been sounded, as it always had been sounded, whenever any great moral changes had been attempted to be introduced. At the time of the religions Reformation, the historian Robertson said, that those who opposed the Reformation took care to spread an alarm, that certain evil dispositions were riding about the world to overthrow all that was esta blished and to undermine all religious systems. This, they said, was not owing to any thing above the earth or under the earth, but owing to the sinister influence of the stets. At present alarms were equally spread ; but he (Mr. Hobhou-e) thought there was no danger, except from those who opposed Referm. The danger proceeded from that cold, blared, selfish sect of politicians—if politicians they could be called—who, in spite of all past expe rience, when truth pressed her Fght upon the whole nation, were still left in ignorance and sunk in corruption.. They woulihratlier that the whole State should be lost for ever, than that they should resign one of their pi try interests, or forego one of their much-cherished prejudices.—(Hear , hear.) If any cries of alarm were spread, they would be the organs of that alarm, but he trusted that there was in the country a good sense as well as a temperate feeling, which would not permit any use being made of such fears. If those with whom he agreed in opinion had been accused of appealing to the fears of the people, lie must accuse the gentlemen oppn elte, not of appealing to the fears of the people, but of doing what was infinitely worse—they had appealed, by the worst of artifices, to the fears and selfish passions of those whom they called the aristocracy of the country. The Hon. Metnber for Newport (Mr. Horace Twiss), in his speech, had advised gentlemen to look after their rents; another gentleman had sounded an alarm upon the secu rity of tithes; and another had exclaimed, that if the Reform were carried, there would no longer be security for property of any sort. —(Cheers.) When such gen tlemen talked to him of appealing to the feats of the people he had a right to taunt them of appealing to the fears of that class which seemed to think that they possessed their itited propertyvery yl people ja i u t t l s i tl t ia i y u r without es a .a n i dyi‘a,:r,rdet.ilt,ainijoti:otinikieet,po who rights exovras Es on a g titl itnet feelingsquoted,ba(ioof, They interest never to benefit, e proved fit, n p is i e t i r y p e o s se to to ha s v e e rve a , s ny b , y — d n is;: t ra t e h r ii .. people of England —not those for whom he was appealing d pp o ai s .r e ol who aettaeylif tinnhe bt were e : yr_ileritiohn: iree l lo • their e L e l :sree o belo f e pikarfedpeople, theoep rllnieepe, r fg, i ,rr g teieeh: l is.ya i ot t tso s tig anti nh :ri t mee l eactrpseo.nprnryerrisitsillil in clination d n t h o i s k e o e b o dewFilif:idiiitn n ithah o nto t eaiofoi t tisen h ., speak the voice of millions, but he spoke the sentiments of his own heart ; and having received the same educa tion, being born on the same soil, and having the same recollections and the sante wishes as the gentlemen whom lee addressed, he did believe that he spoke the voice of the people ; and lie did hope that a great majority of that House; by voting for the present measure, would be the faithful in terpreters of the wishes of the people of England. He had no hesitation in saying, be should feel indispeserl to object to any plan calculated to let in any class of his fellow-sub jects to the enjoyment of privileges which they could exercise with safety to the state and advantage to them selves. But he should be acting unjustly by the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, unjustly towards the country' and the great cause to which he had all his life devoted himself, and used his feeble but sincere exertions to pro mote, if be were now able to do his best in support of the Noble Lord's proposition—(Hear, hear)—a propositinn which he trusted, and believed, would be supported by the great mass of the people of England,—(Cheering.)— And here let him warn the people against being led away by certain insinuations that had been somewhat insidiously thrown out in the course of the debate, and against the quarter in which they originated. The Hen. Member for Newport had said that the Noble Land's plan would not satisfy the people; but he begged to say he knew as much of the sentiments of the community on this subject as the Hon. MembsCr possibly could, and he boldly asierted s speak ing upon that knowledge and upon the communications which had alieady reached him from various quarters, (although it was true only forty-eight hours had elapsed since the platewas made known), that the people generally would be satisfied, and, he might add, ought to be satisfied, with the meesure.—(Hear, hear.) —Taunts had been thrown out against Ministers, but the people of England cared nothing about such taunts,—they cared only about the measure; it might be a very good joke to mix up comments upon a little mistake in the budget,. or on suspected divisions in the Cabinet, with the discussion of the Noble Lord's proposition; but the people cared nothing for all this, their only care being to ascertain who her this measure would give them what they bad a right to expect, and what they had loudly raised their voices to obtain. As to any changes of opinion in the sentiments of a Noble Lord, or a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, what had that to do with the msrits of the present question ? Well did he recollect the conduct of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) below him, when he pursued that manly and magnanimous career with respect to an important subject some time since disposed of ee —a career which never would be for gotten, and which had secured the Right Hon. Gentleman the everlasting gratitude of the country. And what had happened to the Right lion. Baronet at that time? He was reviled, not merely by his former political associates, but had the pain of hearing one of his nearest and dearest relation', who" rose up behind him and read an extract from one of his own speeches, against himself. If the Right Hon. Gentleman had shrunk from doing his duty on that occasion, and abstained from avowing the change that had taken place in his sentiments, through a weak fear of the obloquy to which the avowal must expose him, instead of the station which he now held in the estimation of the country, and the -prowl and unsullied character which he had maintained—a character to which posterity would do justice as well us his contemporaries,—what would have been the Right lion. Gentleman's position? He would nut be considered the great and wise politician, which most acknowledged him to be, but would have been looked on as a man unfit to play a distinguished part on the theatre of public affairs—unfit to take a share in governing empires, because unable to govern him self.—(Hear.)—He (Mr. Hohhouse) repelled the cant of inconsistency, when the charge applied to a conscientious and wise change of opinion. But the very same diverting jokes had been cast upon the Right Hon. Baronet which were now again dealt forth against the present Ministry— (Heer)—and from the same quarter. It was not then as now, " Altherp and Cu.," but " Peel and Co."— (" Hear," and laughter.) He recollected the very words, the refined and facete expressions, learnt, no doubt, by the Hon. and Learned Member in the academic groves of Oxford, or the congenial bowers of Lincoln's-Inn— (Laughter)—and so pleasantly and unsparingly applied by him to the Right Hon. Gentleman. The phrases were too expressive and witty not to deserve being revived, and accordingly revived they were, in nil their original splen dour, by the facete Member for Boroughbridge, the last time he treated the House to the erambe recocta of "Peel and Co."—(Cheers and laughter.) Last night it was " the expiring Member for Boroughbridge," formerly it ' was " the expiring Attorney-General."—(Laughter.) This was another of the waggish and facete gentleman's jokes, too good not to deserve and bear repetition, and it had been again inflicted on the house by the Hon. Mem ber, who originally rung the changes on his then also last dying note, so very long that one would have thought it might content him to utter it once in his life.—(Hear.) But no : the Hon. Member's joke I were not so easily worn out : it was then his turn to be waggish with the Right Hon. Baronet below, and try how far a good-humoured sarcasm and a joke might divert him from his great object of saving the nation, and securing the tranquil lity of the country even at the expense of the friendship of " the expiring Attorney-General."—(Laughter.) Now the expiring representative for Boroughbridge applied his stores of humour to an attempted diversion of the present Cabinet from its important determination, he (Mr. Hob house) trusted with precisely the seine degree of success as before.—(Hear, and a laugh.) All public men must make up their minds to things of this sort, and the pre sent Ministry, like their predecessors, would bear as beet they could, the sarcasms and wit icisms of the lion, and Learned Member. He must here observe, that the House, in showing itself so delighted with the lion. Member's jokes, evinced either that it had very little memory, or that it reckoned tire jokes so good that they might be re peated. However, as lie had before observed, Right Hon. Gentlemen must make up their minds to listen to the facet lee of the Hon. Member. Supposing that Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite had not thought it necessary to bring for ward this great and healing measure,—and in doing so to sacrifice some degree of private opinion,—let him ask where, how, or by whom, was a Government to be formed? Could gentlemen who now opposed Ministers so violently, make up a Government among themselves ? When the Right Hon. Gentleman failed to do so, could any one else succeed in the attempt, if made upon the same principles? If the tiring were to be made by mortal man, the Right Hon. Baronet 'could have accomplished it. But a ministry could only he framed on one of two principles—anti- Reform or Reform. 'fhe late Government went out chiefly because it was found impossible to carry on the bu siness of the country on principles of anti-Reform.— (Cheers from the Treasury, iniugled with cries of "No," from the Oppositions benches.) He certainly understood the Right Hon. Gentleman to say, it was not so much in consequence of the ill success of Ministers upon the ques tion of the Civil List, that the late Government had re tired, but rather because it appeared that things had come to that point in the country, that it was necessary to try some new principles of government, and a new set of men. He again asked where was a Government to lie harmed unless from among the ranks of Reform ? and what Government but one thus constituted could carry on the business of the country ? It was because he was se tisfied that no Ministry but a Reforming Ministry could act with safety, that be had felt so anxious to see the late Government (earning the humble supporters of which, upon many points, he had long been,) quit their places. He might here observe (as he had made up his mind to take the first opportunity of doing), that if on the night of tine division upon the Civil List he had shown any ap pearance of indecorous haste or improper exultation in proposing a question to the Right Hon. Baronet, as to whether it was the intention of Ministers to go out, he now frankly begged the Right Hon. Member's par don, and expressed himself sorry fur it. li e was not actuated by any hostile feeling again s t th e Ri g h t H on. Gentleman or his colleagues, he was m ere l y conv i nce d , an d on that conviction he spoke, that so lon g as Mi n i sters at tempted to go on without a majority o f t h e House i n the i r f av our, and with the people a ga i nst t h em, it was hopeless see o to expect tranquillity or security.—(Hear.) He hoped to v uthseqdudayrtewrsheann' this d parti g e r s ea i e n q t u h e : ti p o u n bl b ic ei s n e g rvi a c d e - . ie ilturo'ti'e:lo %, . a there r e i would b e a combination men of talent Under such circumstanc es , i t was poss ib le, and he hnped no t improbable, that th e Ri g h t Hon. Gentleman an d some of his friends might be ind uce d, i n t h e great cr i s i s o f public affairs, to put thei r s h ou ld ers ` to the wheel and en d eavour to drag the car of state to a place of security. He had seen great changes inn his time,—lie had seen great and long-rooted prejudices give way,—he had seen penal re atrictions removed, commercial re , trictions abolished, reli gious disabilities disappear, before the spirit of inquiry and truth which was abroad, and its all these great triumphs the Right Hon. Gentleman had borne a distinguished part, and in one of those conquests he had achieved a still greater victory—a victory over himself. lie trusted that the Right lion. Gentleman would yet be induced to add iris own nanny to those who, late converts though they ivere, had at length become advocates of tlnis great cause. —(lean) In acting thus, the Right Hon. Baronet would not have to encounter the difficulties which best him in the Catholic question. lie called upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to take this course, and add another wreath to his laurels, and, inn recommending this course, he asked for no destruction or annihilation of ancient and established rights; but he asked the Right Hon. Gentleman and the House, in the words of the poet Waller, in his famous speech on episcopacy, " to Reform, that is not to abolish, the Parliament."--(Cheers.) Mr. H. DAVIS and Mr. BARING rising together, the latter was loudly called for by the House, but gave way to the Hon. 'Member for Bristol, who proceeded to speak frtm Ma place under the gall, bet amidst such noise and confusion, that not a single s entence of a 20. minutes' speech reached the ears of the reporters, so as to enable them even to conjecture the side taken by the Hon. Gentleman. . , Mr. BARING being loudly- called for when Mr. H. Davis resumed his seat, rose and said, be approached the question then uro'er dis ension with the greatest anxiety and hesitation, as every . thinking man in the country must do. He thought every body would be sensible that the House bad not before it no ordinary act of legisla tion, or even a mere alteration in the construction of the House of Commons, but a measure which, in point of fact, amounted to a new Constitution.—(Loud cheering from the Opposition.)—Gentlemen on the Treasury bench might declare that our old Constitution was worn out— that it bad lost the affections of the people—that it was found to work so ill, and cause misery among the people to such an extent, it behoved us to remodel it Still they would at least admit that the effect of the proposition of the Noble Lord went in substance to produce a new Ciinstitutien.—( Hear, hear. )—He repeated, that although on the fees of it this was only a Bill to alter the repre sentation, it was essentially, and in point of fact, a new Constitution. The only Constitution that had ever been tried with success for the purpose of mixing up a popular form of Government with a Monarchy and Aristocracy, was that which had been adopted in this country—( Hear, from the Opposition )---And which, he did not say by the wisdom of our ancestors, but through the fortuitous occur rence of events, or perhaps he might with greater propriety say, by the gift of Providence—(Cheers) —had brought nisi to the state of prosperity and security which ha i hitherto been the envy of r the world—(Hear)—and which, till late years he thought was also the pride and satisfaction of Englishmen —(Hear, hear.)—Hitherto it had been held that the Constitution of the country con sisted in three estates—King, Lords, and Commons t but he feared that if this measure were adopted, we should at least have to reverse the order of these estates (supposing that they all remained in existence), and that in future it would be no longer King, Lords, and Commons, but Commons, Lords, and King.—(Hear.)—He repeated that the Constitution of this country was that of King, Lords, and Commons; and living under that Constitution the empire ha I enjoyed the highest prosperity. He might be told that the existing system was corrupt and rotten ; but it appeared evident to him that the state of things which hod been long established in this country had secured to it a degree of prosperity and of freedom which was not to be found in any other part of the world.— (Hear.)—Here was a popular body slightly subjected to the influence of the (*.own, connected also with the influ ence of the aristocracy, representing much of the property of the nation, and providing for all those various corn pounds which entered into the composition of society.— (Hear. )—The question then was, whether a body so corn posed was calculated to forward the welfare of the country ; and whether it bad done so? In his opinion both these questions must be answered in the affirmative.—( Hear.) When he considered this, and heard the Hon. Member for Middlesex tell them that if the people were left to themselves they would establish a different House of Commons from that which the country now possessed, be could not help considering it as an argument against giving them an opportunity of effecting a change, which, in his opinion, would be any thing but beneficial.— (Loud cheers.)—He thought, in some parts of hie speech, his Hon. Friend seemed to lean to the opinion, that the House of Commons was not quite so unworthy of con fidence as some individuals asserted. In his view of the case, the state of the representation was not so corrupt, or so defective, as it hod bLen descrtbed, although ignoran , , and perhaps unthinking, people, endeavoured to find fault with it. He would contend, that if all the constitution mongers in the world exerted their abilities for that pur pose, they would not be able to frame a form of govern ment under which the same extent of population would be blessed with the same extent of rational liberty.—(Cheers.) What had been effected under that Constitution, afforded some proof that the wit of man could not go beyond the skill which was manifested in its formation; and if they threw aside that jewel for the purpose of adopting a theoretic plan, he thought they must be considered as the wildest visionaries that ever existed.—(Loud cheers.) Such was his opinion, and he boldly avowed it in the presence of his Hon. Friends below him. He had sat for many years in that House—he had approve , ' of many acts of his Hon. Friends ; but when a question of this sort was brought forward, be would st.tte his opposition to it without apology.—(Cheers.) Those who supported this measure said, " Let the King stand by himself; let the Lords stand by themselves, and let the people stand by themselves,— let there be no mutual connexion between them. Such was their doctrine, but such was not the Constitution of this country.—(Cheers.) He should be glad to know what was the practical grievance, under the existing system, of which that House had to complain ? II ad the other powers which forme I part of the Constitution interfered with the people in any way ? Had they interfered with the fullest freedom of action and of speech in that House,— the fullest, he would say, that was allowed in any country in the world ?" No such attempt had ever been made ; and, if they extended the popu'ar branch of the Constitu tion with a view to the diffusion of popular liberty, his fear was (being himself a friend of freedom) that the alteration would en.l in the destruction of those liberties which he was anxious to preserve.—(Hear, hear.). — What grievance, he would ask, did any man in this country suffer from the conduct of the other House of Par liament? Did they find those Peers pressing on them in any way? Did they find them making laws that were directed against the popular branch of the Legislature? Did they, in the courts of law, assume any superiority ? Did they not find their rights secured as well as these which appertained to the House of Lords ? He knew of no such interference; he was not aware of any such inter position; and he was firmly of opinion that the mixture of different powers and interests in that House had been the great protector and promoter of public liberty.— (Cheers. ) 7 -That mixture tended to check and to resist' those . _ erroneous feelings which were occasionally visible in that House. There was sufficient popular feeling in that House. The feeling which was manifested out of doors was re sponded there, as evidently appeared from the lively ex pression of popular opinion on this occasion. There was much restlessness out of doors ; but he felt no apprehen sion on that account. The people, it appeared to him, did not much know what they wanted, neither did the House of Commons seem to know exactly what they de. shed. They had turned out one Administration and put in another, and they appeared to feel no great disposition to support either. Mr. Windham had observed, that one great benefit of the House of Commons was, that when measures were introduced there, time was given for the people to reflect on them. It would certainly be absurd for them to decide on what should be done, by proceeding from market-town to market -town, and inquiring of the people—. Ia such your real opinon ?" He had known instances (not to speak of Catholic Emancipation) where the House hail wisely opposed that which appeared to be popular opinion ; and the measures thus carried, though condemned at first, had afterwards proved highly beneficial. He could not agree with the Hon. Member for West minster, that a popular call should be atqtace obeyed, without any intermediate consideration on the part of that House. Such a course of proceeding would lead to the eatest evi:s. With respect to the conduct of the House of Commons, it could not be supposed, be denied that they were ever re rely to make the fullest inquiry into the distresses of the country. No branch of trade got out of joint—no body of the people was thrown out of e mployment—no general grievance was complained of, without causing the formation of com mittees to investigate the facts. On all occasions the most pa rental care was manifest for the well-being of the country: and he thought that those who maintained a contrary po sition were either guilty of a gross misrepresentation of facts, or else were labouring- under the illusion of most perverted judgments.—(Cheers. ) —Such was the course uniformly taken under the existing Constitution of the eountry. Ent new lights had now broken in upon us ; and what consequence was to follow ? Why, in obe dience to these novel views, the whole aristocracy of the country was to be swept away.—(Cheers. ).—The principle which these reformers thought proper to set up wag, that the influence of the aristocracy in Viet House was illegal— that it was ir great evil, and ought to be removed alto gether.-Hear, bear.)—Their opinion was, that the in fluence of P eers i n th e nom i na ti on o f M e mbers—that the ir.. fluence of l an d e d propr i etors , w ith res p e ct to seats in Par liament, w as productive of great mischief, and ought to be gut rid o f. — (H ear, hear.)---He should be as sorry as any man to see the lower classes, even the lowest cla , srs cf this country, without considerable influence in that House. They had considerable influence, and thereforeit was right that there should be a c ornttevailing influence ; because it was the influence on the one side, that enabled them to bear the pressure of influence on the other. It w.lB by that means that they were enabled to take (using a short phrase) low popularity into their system. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to argue, that the proposed qua lification was too low. In France, where there were 32,000,000 of people, the constituency was something short of 90,000. The qualification was about 121. sterling, or the one-fifth of an income of 601. a-year ; which, consider. irg the difference in the value of money, was equal to about 100/. What was recently proposed there was to reduce it from 601. to 401. Having gained that immortal victory, in the achievement of which he rejoiced as mueh as any 14 late pArgon, yet amidst all those cireumstanees of popula e th e , 1 element which that event was calculated to In " d i man dreamt of going beyond that qualification. In referenr e l th e e _eigh to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Preston 1011 f eo , l 7l l ati night, he at once admitted that it was useful and rlesirsio - th e _the that the class who returned him to Parliament-should M i l c e ;"essu i represented in that House. To them it must be a source:it', p s i t r etue great satisfaction to have their views explained 100 l th haf . grievance stated in Parliament. It was certainly right t hat tlisti;" such great popular bodies should he so represented --bu t g - "Oah e " they, he would ask, allow that principle without bl ele ta a „,. eers something to counterbalance it? The keeping up of itore"!. ST and steady balance between all interests Iva th e s '?, e n ' 4 t h lf • t all stitulion of England. Those who looked at it othelletthe: took, in his opinion, a shallow and narrow vie/ t Pent if ti question. It had become fashionable to abuse that Ifoutte'i bed„ if and to hold it up to censure, as being unfaithful t° t4 n fau; interests of the people. He believed, that if the acl e di t ;_l tla y th ? l ' that House were examined, they would justify a v er _,Y; t i i . ,th s ,; 4114 , 111 ferent kind of feeling. If those acts were looked to rs oit se out that excitement and agitation which some individat., 1 4 , 1 4 41 Pr ; Mop i felt, they would be found perfectly in accordance W" - A t se Na il , • public interests. He had been long in that House, au"iro.htthe•". had never called ee v r o ta t il:e d , affs ,; n e,e o cet r p would ionfg a ever lßteer l f i i. e nrgrritr .et I, v , va. t ht tt eR e f f o r, : armin u e . do ieh 04, t , 0 th % would Of the lo g 01 ; ly 4 Constitution.—(Cheers. ) With respect to granting 0 a,* not lut right of representation to great manufacturing toar°,,,r, ap thought it would be most useful. He never could rt' t , 'art it caul tain the slightest doubt of it. He also thought .that S co ii I I th i : 4, 1t land ought to have a more extensive representadelb, !II:1 0 :"Y . I would, lie conceived, ere itly benefit that country, be !itsi,,, l • out impairing that Constitution the workings of willo w ) tts had most inadequately attempted to describe. nut'Aler b It % I p le ; st lie said that Scotland would be benefitted by sae ";,-yeti tion, he must, at the same time, state, that he b't t e• i ttattl t h e "' Scotland to he at present virtually and beneficially L e rab I toki 0 a ' . rented in that House. He had never known any 4 as -.15 question that was not earnestly attended to--(lleart 1;4 that i e ) ed as hear)—and he had known the Scotch interest o, des r, it st d of n, lie avre.r E )_ n w g o l ll l u s le h d ,acvin,andsseltuhr consent thus far f i a n ar te n t if v er s ai t esnu o ,ri u t of the field. --W . , at i t tt ph" exped'ency or safety of which el l ) : i e nvt c Po o l u v l iß d ngef ;: r t em t h3; P eqbgruec:i : l:4; He should like to know on what ground that his Noble Friend left the right of representatr,de We to - L e si certain sweet-scented places ? His Noble Friend hau v tipe 1, 4 414 4 ,"e on a reforming tour, but he had taken care to Ot es ' e , t to stay at Tavistock.—(Loud cheering.)—With rel e ‘ ht "hick ' the borough which he himself represented, he tl ol l',(re right to declare, that as to corruption it was perfecl;bie `Rs ve ,h l maculate compared with 50' or 60 places' which id' ' l` lotalklrefs' -t " Friend had not interfez hea4oo( election for that borough, he had not spent one 0 t „tti lli , - , 9 u that he was not willing to sub:nit to the greatest P,, h at with respect to elections, that 'sat in the House. ;; , I : ,Lore e r,. 4 4 was not any one item of expence which he was n ot tby Ito rn to produce. It had cost him 1501., and he wold"or ingly publish every item of which it consisted at 0 4 0 )The cross.—(Hear.).—Shaftesbury, and Sudbury, *OLIO i Rid V other places were, it appeared, to be retained, 00`"fichi VII standing all their impurity, while many other b °r° :e.l• El a vl were, without any sufficient cause, to be disfranebto i ty -l !' A It would be impossible under the new system fa, itr ßyi t merchants to procure seats in Parliament. If w e ', t ttl ea 4 tempted to fix themselves on any of these very Ptsti' " 4 utal t. ,s ti places, the chances were that their exertions would I'oo S tat le nate in bankruptcy and the Gazette. —(Hear.)-- -13 ,1", 1 4 1 itti s i plan, boroughs containing less than 2,000 inhum;ooP were to be disfranchised, and 47 boroughs, having, " a pil L' 41 41 ) , inhabitants, were to be allowed one Member each• then, lad.; w he would ask those persons who were acquainted with, / " l alt L I % in some degree, favoured places, whether the alteraticliol, „'4l le - v e likely to introduce a greater degree of purity than c, 5 . ,1 1 ll s a ao " . ? there at present? Was it to be supposed that the , 4t would make inquiry as to the purity of the m otiv e ' fig rpßee :ndidate ? They would do no such thing. l' be ft# quiry would be confined to the length of his par e• r N4 el; L AIla 1- " 1 candidate must not indeed have committed any j. 'e ls, r fence; but, independent of that, if he acted ilberSZ,lo generously, he would be well received. No man ' e _." - e l e ba'l7,, e acquainted with the facts, could listen without di47 Ai' this cant about purity.—(Hear, hear.) Instead e ' ir effl,t 4 riti er e ,7; proved morality and purity, an effect directly the eo t e t a4 l , l t c i would be produced. When it was stated, in exeluitVi " 4 4 et ' the impartiality of the new system, that because ' l*°. or c hil e T a y el was on one side of the proposed line of distinct o !„ete , ki .„ 4ti Callington on the other, the former should be conutV r 1 W, at and the latter disfranchised, he should be glad to who it was that drew the line ?—(Tremendous 0 be • for several minutes.) It was true, that the one. -0 . 0 1, „Nti, -- „ 4 ,' larger 'dice than the other, but both were smal l ' A k t o , " " 7 , or ‘44y r and, with respect to purity, he would only say( • tc , election for Callington, where there were 200 vott' f ;,er ~;4 t him 1.50/., not one sixpence of which was improP e Au 'e , is had b pended.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that the 01 " 41° pa t which was now exercised with reference to those 1)1 0 1 0 , 1 41 1i 4 t0 -t end by men of rank and wealth enabled them to kn°ij 0b i"ltayttre' - confidence at the door of the Treasury. But svi lvi Vlow , those persons who got into that House by treatirlSworon.:, not beer and gin the electors in populous places be as th e ,( :nati on ' nate as those who attained the same end merely' 1)) 0 ' er th '4l, l R i v : money? It was set forward as au argument in . 0 .10, , ir k t t th; the plan, that as boroughs were now constituted, !dit l i 4,e% 0 14 11 of them might be placed in the hands of a fo v ;p i ; °1„ mate. ll duals, who thereby acquired the power of asc e. c . otl` commanding Ministers. But the new plan would j oi‘' k %ell medy that evil. Would not the borough of To 10 0 . 4%, v A t i for instance, belong to the Duke of Bedford 3 ' ) r, after the alteration as before it?—Great( checriP, the Noble Lord who represented the borough dolib te ;,/ top Pea h , fact, he would insure him his e'ection fur half-a•er° j4,11y (Laughter.) He would still have his two Aleit' l ' e au°' • he t Bedford. lie would have the same influence tha t I le°, li ie °ll, tr ei possessed. He would have that influence that v o .l ° . We, 44 , am able hint to knock at the Treasury door, Wi, it „l i i rg e tej„-' 4l Members wished to get rid of by the propose u ,-;di O f it „ s " nap When he said this, he meant not to cast the slig d ,,;fs' f , i(l‘l4,t only putation on the Noble Duke, or to imply that he (O t q t .!' hi, 4 l made such use of his influence ; and here, for ~,g e eo6 0 0 ,, 541 1hg part, be would beg to state, that lie had now 0 o ar , ' Of t ,rti ltle five years in Parliament, and during that time belie .o l? co o ' , ver once knocked at the Treasury door, as the P. l !N:ted or ever asked a favour from Ministers in Ili tt 1 ,4 0 . 01 far) ° ,, t4 Ip begged pardon for thus introducing his own n ani- oe§ r discussion of this kind. To return—the real 1`,;'41 g i was, whether the Bill (lid not destroy one iine r a terest in order to create another ; whether--fo r c ' o a minor consideration, whether the influence in tl"dot did t iu has, lusted to was exercised by the Duke of B6 11°1. 00: 0 , r j 4„,. 1 1t other, for the purpose of making an alteration--; o ,,eif' or N ot Cer to not cut off the interests of the lower elasse , ° ef f ic t :e s o He said this, not as an advocate for universal t pd . dh e t lk lor II any thing like it, but still lie thought that opr 11°' 4 1 llk ( 1.! °4 . such as now existed, should be given to represented , tv t of the humbler classes of society. lie was v/11 e , , '4 „ 4, t a few days ago by some of the pot-wallopPer"l djt ge/ told them that there could be no extensive 0. 0 1 ,1 1 44 \v „liat which would nut sweep away:their boroughs. 11 ,. ° ,1;ig 1 ,1 t( ts- e hers might be assured that the intelligence '10; W e , of Reform would not give satisfaction among th e ple r pf classes. The country shopkeeper might b e . 14,al Mile; but his pa. rer neighbour would be greatly di ssa t t i l' 1 1 1 , , i 4 „ t ' l i t „ 44 t it was certain that his interests would be gre 3 'lo ,l "! l it" % t. At by it. To that part of the plan which cut 'tit t44 l t voters, he had no objection ; but he thought the P of continuing the votes in the boroughs w hieb c asy f l 'ls diieter of during the lives of the present voters was it' fle 01 0 44 't rc with the general principle advocated by the 1 , 41 )4, 11 i , nutted the general principle that prima fac ie s a o ol' in the kingdom, being a natural-burn subject, d i .e 0 4 1% 4 : 11 to a vote, unless it could be shown that its exe r .,;r o o l / 1 prove injurious to himself, er to the general co Lj . it' t t 1., 4 , 4 t the community. If the person having this rigoeil Pia r a°B e convinced that he ought not to be permitted th t c oo llr f l 1 ; 11 well and good •; but by what sort of iirgut° °- , 1 0 7 tP liners convince lion that he might exercise it vitith u t ~fter o l I the general welfare fur twenty years, but ta i : 0 1 0 t ot b elt I e l time the exercise of it would be g reatlY a sho I, k , 4 11; t the state? Ile owned he could not understa°. , theoe, the' of reasoning. The 10/. qualification name d ld 1)e hol l e • 11, ‘ ; 4 Y; cl was, he took it for granted, the lowest that e°t'scere 4. ,it 4 1 4 tioned consistently with safety, far 31 inirteo svereo,o to go lower if they could do so with safct)'. ri d then fur the next twenty years, during a P e l , eg l Grp of it was probable would be one of no ni'di u , l, ,,, tc pr h c to have the existing voters in boroughs Wit'',cre r P i j ts tl V qualifications—with qualifications which _ `safery' (t itt't tots, by the Bill itself, to be too low for the, • du i state,—were they, he asked, to hav e t tic og ca j tai s'JU more dangerous, because lower qualifief t o /it' s , j, l li ew t ing freemen to continue in full operation • toePbc Lem it would have been more consistent to sa)'' a la y esv ,o . ti s, fi atmosphere looks cloudy at present, let let 4 44 0 , 1 lification as high as 15/. for the next th eorithi P .i i o and after that we shall see if we can go P as to 0 " I ,e titt, - ,,kli te qualification. Ile would now say a W° l-u f per' et ! 1 1;'e of the measure with respect to the clasa n ode . it' , siov, ge might bc introduced into Parliament t' s 1 13 1 5 1/1 , f re hit 4 tiol t Inuit contend that as independent 3leinbert of I t o a Nl t eit not be improved ; for, considering the e til l a now represented some of those close h . ° too t O r s l ef icr ,, t h ; were called, the temptations to abuse the' r j 0, ti tie Ih°tee et much less than in the case of those retu rije Jiti° lila °P , se° 1 , 1, 54 inept chosen under the new plan. lu , op e this plan would destroy the Ca' institution_4oecce,;. N y tt t an entire change by taking awa y thoseue79o 0;00;0,4 shi had so long existed, and which had ,“". th i e . a g 441 1 thing he feared,—that it might go f °r. %tot° that in rejecting this plan they were no