The Sun. — London, England, 1825-06-28 00:00:00

ttn - reency ? There could . be no doubt of our having such a sail'- - elency as long as. our commerce should exist ; or of retaining it until some such calamity should Laid us as the-wit.or powers --of man should prove to be unavailing to oppose with success. .He had yet a word or two to say Amu other remarks that had fallen from Hon. Gentlemen in the course of this discussion. In•-point of fact, if a man came to }fan, as a.banker, and thought proper at once to ask hint for his balance, he (Mr. Smith) was net, .by law, bound to pay hide, Bat his creditthat upon which alone he existed—that upon which was the foundation of 'h:s whole subsistence—what, - in such a case would be become of that? It would be gone"; . for -who would trust him a second tins. But the present was a case-totally different ; itaroscout of a refusal to comply with a legal request. The refusal, was • occasioned entirely by the. intemperate manner, as it hat. heen teemed, in which-it-was put but alit refuaal. was very soon after wards retracted. This was, however, a. delicate subject; and whenheheardHon. Gentlemen throw out such impute • :.t.ous as they had done, eipecially at a time when,from the great ainonnt of our exports lately, the exchanges, though not abso lutely against us, were, if any thing; a little on the wrong, side, he could not but-deprecate the unnecessary introduction of go many extraneouS'and grave topics. He soleentely protested that he -did • not believe there were three country bankers ,an the kingdom who would refuse to give gold for their own notes. at was not ,quite clear whether, under- any circenettances, it -would be posaible for ue to divest our circulation altogether of all paper currency of a small amount. It 'Might be possible, • but he did not think it was. Ile took vcrylittle personal inte rest in such question; for he knevhfull well, that of all, the modes of banking which could be adopted by country bankers, that of circulating 1/. bank notes was the least profitable and . the most dangerous. Indeed, he knew no man of respectability or eminence in the banking line who bad not. contracted to a great extent his issues of this kind thr was thelast which a man of sense would willingly resort - to.. Upon- the whole. he did hope that - the House would not alter the law of the cur rency as it now stood. As. it now stoo(1, - it:was very much the - same as it was anterior to the year 1797',' With the exception of 11. notes.. In regird to all payments, it' was the same. On such a subject the House, he trusted„hwould deliberate very maturely indeed; behsre they effected any such change as had been suggeeted. 31r: E. ELLICE and Lord T4:A.KEsToNE severally ex - • • - plained. Mr. ABERCIIOMrty thought that this was not a question that properly involved all those nuni.rous .extrinsic coesidera dons .into which Hon. Gentlemen .hod. so largely enteredae. (Hear, hear !)---The main. question 'here' vias,.indeede yery int,. - portant e and if the facts were such as were 'Stated in ththpeti . tion,. undoubtedly they .were very deserving of the attention of - Government. It was the case, as lie understood it, of an indi vidual meeting difficulty' or obstructions in obtaining gold for certain notes which he tendered to those who had hisuedthein ; and it would seem that that difficulty had envie solely from some misunderstanding -or quarrel between the parties, but that subsequently•gold was offered to the Petitioner for his notes. Now if the .bankers refused to pay - in -gold when asked for it, they might have occasioned' a good deal -of in -convenience and . injury,. no doubt, to the individual ; and such a practice, were it' to grove into one, would be' highly injurious and inconvenient to the country. It' the existing law was defective as.to that clause of the 37th of George 111. which his Hon. Friend (Mr; Home) had pointed out, the country banker, to be sure, could be little apprehensive of this demand for gold in exchange _for his paper, being, in many instances at least, made upon him ; because a large proportion • or those who held the notes of his .bank-woulthrather_be sub jected to the inconvenience of retaining them, -than sustain' ac tions against the bankers, which might be prolonged to the ex- tent that had been suggested. - But such a practice in country banks would amount to a diminution. of the salutary facilities for the convertibility of paper into-specie; and would have a direct tendency to increase the issue of notes. - Now the stand ard at which the currency stood in 1797. - was - that •to which it aught to have been restored, butdo which it was not restored by the Act of 1320... The only question was, whether the °mid. - stun that had been counniued in that Act should not be.advert ed to, and amended before the House separated ? As the cur rency geed in 1797, so it continued till Midi. The Act of 11122, • which went to authorize-the issue of the I/. noteee'dld not con, tain the provision of the Act of 1797, already omitted in the intervening measure. . But if no good reason could he assigned vetey that prevision should not be now supplied, anti the last Act of 1822'sefar amended, the public good really seemed to re quire t'net that amendment should be now effected. It•was fni m convertibility, and that alone, which constituted. our security touter the present system of: currency. •IVitli respect to, 11. notes, that was the only pert ofthe arrangement to which, when tlds.greae question was settled (as he had hoped, finally), he objected., If good ground : could.. be sliewn, however, even ~ her that measure now, he -wouldnot object - to it. But he - did' net apprehend there could .be; and-he- earnestly recommended ~:.the other measure he. spoke of to the co:msideration of the House - Mr. PEEL perfectly coincided in tbatremark with-which die 'lion. Member for Caine (Mr. Abercromby) had-'prefaced his :speech, that this was not a question prOperle involving the nu -.meepus extrinsic considerations. which had- been gone - into by the Hon. Gentle Man who-preceded hint. 'Ar the time he (Mr- Peel) 4PPrellended die House was about to be drawn into a.de - hitie of - the most delicate kind, without: soffleierit - hiformation, inquiry, or reflection, more particularly as there was not one person connected with .the Batik of ..England ; then - -present.= ( Gentleman - so. connected.hatt, indeed, subse ouentlyetinie in, to whom he (Mr. -Peel had. just been very I!:perfectly describing what had been said on the-subject. It seem to hint unnecessary to enter into the discussion which Lad been _commenced, -The transaction; as. he understood it, Ras simply this—a country beaker bad 'been applied to on - one occasion for seven sovereigtoein exchange for 71. in notes ; and on another foraitil. The banker reineed in the first instance to give the party gold ; but that .bankerhimself afterwards came torwerd, as the House hail heard, saying that his reftesal had . . arisen solely out of the intemperate manner in , which the gold. - had been deinanded.—(Hear !)—The banker admitted that if . the application were to conic over again lie must pay the parry . . in gold., This was the whole transaction. He (Mr: Peel) was" very sorry that the lion. neither (Mr. Ellice) thought the rir-' culation to be in so bad a state, and prophesied ee • darkly of it; future condition. • But he was happy, also, to hear the Hon.. Cet!tletuan postpone the fulfilment-ales - present predictions to a time much later titan the • evil anticipated,taccording to his own view, ever ought to he,—(A laugh )—At least he (Mr. Pee.) could not help imagining that the circulation was in - a r -, och more satisfactory •statetitan -it, would have •been - had the 11Oneurable Gentlenaan'aproposition for a Committee - to arrange arid - adjust the settlement of all contracts,- or the other measures - in respect of the currency Bugg eeted. , by.-the lion. - Member • for Essex (Mr. Western) been entertained by the House. As the the ;question of the currency, he. deemed it to be one of the most serious moment, and he -thedefore-Was one of . those -who' would paus . for some time before he-- approached it. (The Right Iron. Gentleman then stated the substance of the 59th Ger. 111. (Mr. Peel's Act), which, he observed; did not re. peal restrictions, under which theissites-Of the Bank it d been previously placed. - As - to the policy 'of entertaining a metistire ore this subsea, it certainly appeared to - him that it eiould be e insidious to ititrodace one, on - . a matter where so many- interests, were concerned—particularly as it wait stated by his..llOnOtifable- Friend behind.- hint . (Mr. 11.--Davis) that • the' barkker acknowledgtd, he was -wrong in refusing to pay in gold. He thought, therefore, it was not necessary to conic to a diViaion even on the is:toted-point which had beenalluded tri=(Hear • 'l'lr. ABLRCROM BY wished to -know -whether the Right • Hon. Gentleman meant unsay, that. he ente.rtainetta doubt as to proviso cf . the Act of -1797 -having been repealed ; and if not, Whether he thouetliteliat it-ought to• be repealed.? and . whether a •deumeary process-ought not to-be afforded to the holders of those,notes? . - Mr. P1 7 44.45a1f1,-,the .I.earrted Gentleman hid asked hint - - titetttio - tirp,t!rei en the. sudden—nand:l . y, whether, if e. per , .• Nor asked a banker to pay in gold, he ought not he have agent:- tarp: Pte, cs to Lain:pc; him to pay in a week, thi instance, or ten GT-three jekfs :tow ,that was a que.etiote e taltichetw was • 'not competent to answer, ‘l'llat lie had -all-along contended' • •• for was, that there was a liability, under the existing -state of • the law, to' . pay in gold. If the. banker did not se pay,. the • law woOld - conipel Blum. But if he were asked, at whet period, afteie demand,_ the hatiker odionld be obliged to pay in gold, lie must at mice say,. that he -was . not. prepared to Answer'. the • eitestion. . . - Mr. 3IABERLY said, if the. complain t of' the present petie tioner werereceived, the House would;-: be bouud to receive the -. petition of every teadeernati 'who chase- to make application to that House,'because he could notecn the moment, procure gold • - for a bank -note, or for any legal.written instrumeneopromieing to pay a - Certain sum of motley on a certaih day... :His Hon. -.Friend (Mr. Abercromby) had called on the House to enact a.. summary measure on this subject immediately. But did. he • not know that any.such measure would alter dre-avliole Of , .the • law between debtor, and creditor ?-4Hear !)—And wtnild .he call on the House to change that most important portion df the • law before they separated this session ? This was one of the: must monstrous propositions he had ever heard since he had the . - honour of sitting in that House..—(llear !)—lt was especially.•,. - so, as it came from a member of the legal profession. He did, toot - think that the. House ought to receive this petition, which appeared to him eta contain very doubtful allegations. They ought, at all events, to have it very attentivelly, read, before they received it. If it were allowed to belaid on the tahle, they could not refuse the petition of any individual whatever, com. • plaining that he was not paid in-gold. Mr. CANNING said, time Learned - Gentleman certainly had a right to draw the attention of the House to the doubts which he entertained, even though his opinions might not be correct on this subject. For his own part, .lie had not the shadow of &doubt on; his mind, that, as the law at present stood, the -country banker was as much liable to pay his one., pound bank-notes in gold, as the Bank of England was to pay its notes of any amount in specie.—(Hear!)—With this feeling, he thought 'that an attempt to legislate on that which - was:- at present so clear, would only have the effect of creating doubts which did not now exist; a nd which doubts would be fraught with . very great evil.--( Hear, hear !)---It was asked under what Ise , those parties might he compelled to pay in gold ? 'He would answer, under that general laW of the. land which,made gold a legal tentler.—(Hear 1)—No fight, was giien.to the barker to, pay through any 'medium, except that which was the sole legal tender, if payment in that way.evere demanded. The creditor et the Banli was empowered to den rd gold, and to insist that his note should be paid in that mital. It had been said, that a protection was taken away by the with drawal of a claue which exited in the' Bank Restriction Act. Now he would state to the House the object of that clause, in order that the subject should.hzeproperly.anderstooel. It lad been the desire of all those who were anxious for the restoration of-a metallic currency,' to get back, as nearly as possible, to that state. of society from which circumstances . had compelled • ' the legislature to depart. That was the principle on which thi Bank Suspension Act was removed. Ni'lien that measure was taken; the legislature had to consider whether it WAS or was not' better, for. th convenience of the country, that the ordinary small circulation should be continued. It was understood that it would he , better. , But when that small circulation was first enacted, it was enacted under the Bank Suspension Law ; • and in order that it Might be satisfactory, it was plaCed under a new sanction and a new liability. And why? Because the general sanction of the law, which compelled the banker to pay ' in gold, was suspended: Under this state of things it was neces sary to protect the holders of notes under the new system by a ' farther enactment—that enacteneet being the clause which had been referred to. But the law suspending cash payments was done away with--ehe machinery of that part of the Bank system no longer prevailed, and the old law was in full force and effect. By that law it was_ settled, that every description of .hill or - note, whether written . or printed, purporting to ,represent a sum of money, should be paid in -- gold. That law being com pletely revived, there was T po species of bank circulation- that required, or could have, a better sanction or . protection. The same law applied to all palter issues, whether of the Bank of England hr private hankers ; and any 'attempt- to discriminate between them would'onlv produce dissatisfaction and confusion. --(Hear, hear !)—He tfi'al thotteehf it - necessary thus to give al short statement of the .case, which, in his opinion; had` been greatly - perplexed by hiie lion: Friend the Member for Coven- try (Mr. Ellice), and -his Hors. ,Friend the Member for Essex (Mr. Western). They,had . strayed very much from the real question'for the purpoSe,:as it appeared, of harping back on the opinions which they had-given four or five years ago on the Subject of the cureency, and-of censuring Government for not taking the advice and opinion which they then delivered. The Hon. Member- thr Coventry hid said, that difficulties would, in consequence of the present system, be entailed on the countey, the inconvenience of which must be so severely felt by Parlia ment, as to inducethem, as - the only remedy, to renew the Bank Restriction Act of 17,97. ' Now he, for one, would say, that his imagination could not form the idea of any difficulty to which lie would not sooner submit, rather than depart from the system that was now in operation.—(Hear, hear !) Mr. BARING said, •if he understood- the question, it was this—that COUntry .hankers, who were allowed to put out small notes, were not compellable, by summary process, to pay tbent back in coin. This power, however, to make them do so exist ed before '1797, and all that .was now sought was to place the creditors of those banks in the same- situation as they. then were,. He thought it would be •expedient,to give this summary process. .'the Honourable Member for Abing don said, that to do this would be to • interfere between debtor and creditor; but' he- (Mr. Baring) did not think so. In the country, „all small transactions were carried on lin country notes, and as long as bankers had the privilege-of issuing their notes,- they should be compelled to pay then in coin by some express provision, and that with a view of preventing any alarm in the country. The gold circulation should be increased; or elSe it could not meet that expansion,. and other difficulties. which circumstances might render neces sary. He saw no danger now that we were in a state -of peace; but other circumstances might -occur to change the nature of things, and hence it would be now highly necessary to have the, gold currency - resume a healthy state. The grossest injustice had been done. by withdrawing a gold cur rency, and then by resuming it ; property had fluctuated to an enormous amounts and no- man could say that we should not now. set about preventing an . evil,, the existence of which had been productive •of so much distress to so many in dividuals. • 31r. IRISKI&SON said.that-he.agreed with the last senti ment uttered ty the llon:Gentleinan, and he would go farther anti say, that under no 'circumstances should the Government be induced-to countenance-or t° sanction any alteration in the cur rency. Their object was to keep up good faith between man and inan.--(.llear, hear !)—lle would also admit that the cir culation of 11. notes was a subject highly worthy of considera tion, but neither in the.present- state of the Session nor of the Country did he feel it necessary, to come to any hasty decision: Looking at the general state of the currency, it was highly. ne cessary to continue such a circulating medium, and as to. the matter more immediately contained in the petition, he scarcely • considered it as requiring .the • interference of Parliament. It was saki that a special protection should be given to the holders of those one pental notes; but in Scotland, where bank notes were the general circulating medium, no such protection was• ever asked, anti - yet no injury was complained of. During the, restriction of cash payMents in this • country, it was alnio.l lutely, necessary to give a.. power. of levying by summary pro. cess, if those who issued country notes did not pay them i n notes Of the . Bank of 'England . . But then it should- be re-1 collected that there.. was a suspension of cash payments ; now cash payments were resumed, and . it. was necessary to make the Bank of England as well as other bankers liable to pity their .engagements on demand, and-. that in 'the legal current coin of the realm. It' a compulsory power of demanding. payment in ' coin - exists as tell. notes, surely it must equally apply to the case of issues of 5/. notes, .and now no such application was made. It was alio said that the.poor holder of a 1/. note would be put to considerable expense, to the amount of 401. or 50/. to obtain payment-for it in coin ; but the same difficulty existed in every other transaction, between persons issuing their paper and persons holding and demanding currency in return for such paper. In the county of Lancaster, that great trading county; there were no It. notesincirculation ; they were generally notes of '51., and no incouveniciwe.was felt because the compulsory power existed of demanding the coin of the realm in payment for such notes. lie took the law to be, that all payments in silver must be to the.anionut of 2QY., and all -payments above that sari in the gold coin of the realm, so that no paper could I be issued, and no security exist other than that, all . su.c.in paper fshOuld be satisfied by the money currency, as by law establish ed. He knew of no better security. While the restriction of cash-payments Continued,. the matter was different, but now a new" process payment was adopted ; and when they change was made, it was necesary..tp meet that change by the operation of 'the law, which equally applied to-all dealings of this nature.-- Ile had - no doubt .that every hanker would pay in specie, be cause his credit depended upon it in a great degree.—( Hear 1) He was anxious that no misconception should prevail through-, out.the country on -this important subject, and he would again yepeat, that no corporation issuing notes, from the Bank of England down to .the smallest banker in the country, but were liable to pay, their notes,at sight, in the legal coin of the. realm. There could be no discharge of any such obligation as that con.: tracted by the issue of,Bank or other notes, except made in the [ coin established by law. Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW contended that the renewal of the summary process would .be an evil, instead of a benefit. The petition was then broughtatp. Mr. Et. LICE And 31r. rLEt. said. each a few words in expla , nation. . • . --.•_ , ...... 3lr. J. SMITII, as we . understood, was favourable to the summary• process, and wished Gaverament.to turn their atten tionln the subject. . I Mr.. CA NN 1 NG said; the :if, nnte , Watrprecisely that which, if paid at all, must - be . paid in - cash: The U. note might be paid in 'five one-pound notes; and _it. might be proper to pre vent the larger note from being exchanged for the smaller.- But as there was no note fur less than lt., it must be paid in cash, if paid at all. Mr. HUME said,great inconvenience resulted from the pre sent state of the law ' and if Ministers did not take up the sub , ject, he would, in the next Session of Parliament, submit a motion; having for its object the protection of persons 'holding bank paper. • Mr. 31AIIIIIX said, if he conceived that the allegations in the petition were true, he would willingly refer it to a Com mittee !Or the purpose of having some measure devised to cor rect the evil. ll'hat did the petitioner complain of ? He complained of what he called " a great, a disgraceful,- and a growing evil ?" New lie would ask the House, was this really a great evil ?—(Hear, hear !)—Was it not a mere iso lated case, which no Gentleman had heard of before ?- r -( Hear, hear !)—lle really wondered that his Honourable Fr iend (Mr. Hume) should recommend such a course as he had done, since, ifit were carried into effect, it would annihilate the" whole of the paper of the country to which he belonged. He would ask Whether the prosperity of Scotland had not arisen from its paper circulation ? And yet the lion. Member started up, and with out any foundation but this isolated case, proposed a course which would overturn the whole paper currency of that country. If the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to his object, he would do more injury to the country than ever he had done good in that House.—( - Hear!) Mr. HU3I E would state distinctly, that he had no objection to paper. lie had no objection to seeing the country deluged with paper to the heart's content of his Honourable Friend. What he wished .fee was, that it should be convertible into 91)ecie; antl for that purpose he thought a summary process was nec4.-ssary. The petition was then read, and ordered to lie printed. Mr.' F..' PALMER presented a petition from the cotton. 'spinners. of Stockport on_the subject of the- Comfiination Laws. Laid ()II table. - - • . ..• FOREV.:N TRAM: DEN.,T*Ir 1!3( wished to ,ask. 'orthe - Right Hon: Gent: op peeqe tMr. Buskissdriya question of great importance to the .foreign trade. of the country. - .ile would ask, whether. it Was allowed to. the ships •of a diffeient. nation to import into; tlits.icanntry: the produce of another country ? Fur in stanee,"whetlier a - Swedish ship would beillowed to take a cargo to the llediterranean—to sell it there—and, having taken in an. t . other lading in a. French port, to bring that lading, the produce of France, to this country ? If that were the law, he con ceived our merchants must l a b our u n d er a considerable disad -vantage ; because - he - believed the foreign Veesel could be fitted out at much less expellee than a British vessel. The foreigner .could procure his pork and beef AO per cent. cheaper than the - merchant in this country; and if the foinier were alllswedto import here the produce of France, the - situation Of the latter must be considerably deteriorated. ;Mr. BUSKISSON did not know whether the Hon. Gentle man was speaking of any supposed alteration that was about to take place: in the Navigation Laws of this country, or as to the alteration which had been made in them some time ago. Before the revision of the Act of Charles IL, goods, the pro duce- of Europe, were allowed to be imported into Epg- land, in ships - of tile country to which the articles belonged: - There were, however, some bulky articles to which this provision did not extend, such asilax, timber, masts, tar, - and several others, which were commonly known - Under the nahte of enumerated articles. These were generally.exempted from - the operation of the law, which allowed the htinging . of goods, except those specified . , from any ports in Europe. By an 'Act brought in by an Honourable Friend of his in 1822, 'the - law of Charles 11. was so far altered, that the enumerated articles were placed under a new provision. That new.provision was, that the enumerated articles might be brought frilm the• countries where they were grown in the - ships of that .country, or in-'British :ships ; and from any other countries where they w;et., not grown;' if carried -in ships of the coun trirs...wherke-they happened to be, so deposited. Titus masts cou ld net be bronght h ere f rom Russia except by Russian or ..BritishAships but if those masts tOund their way to Holland, or any other country in Europe, and.were landed there; they might be. brought to England in the ships of that country, or in firirish ships. Trior to the Act of 18-2 . 2 those enumerated articles could not be: imported except in . ships of this country: The alteration as to the carriage of those articles to this coon-, try. in ships belonging to a country where they were not grown, but where they had been landed, was found to .he a-most 'use ful and wholesome provision. The general provision of the Act of Charles 11. was, that no article, 'the produce of-Europe, should be brought to England, except in British ships, or in shipii of the country where the article was grown. But they had been obliged to modify that provision. Since the United States became an indepen , l - int state, European articles were al lowed to be imported in-ships of that-country ; - and it had been subsequently found :necessary farther. to alter the clause, in con sequence of the new states which had recently sprung up. HOBHOUSE presented,a . petition from J. D. Burrell, coinplaining.of certain illegal practicespracttces.in the borough of Lyme- Begis.—Lraid on the table. COll BI N A TION -OF WORKM EN BILL. 111 r. WA MACE Moved the Order of theTDay for the House resolving itself into a Committee of the whole on the Combination of Workmen Bill. The Right Bon. .Gerifle manaaid he would, in moving " that the Speaker do now leave. the Chair,".briefly state the ground on which the present mea surewas fOunded. The statements made on a former night by allight ,IlonOurable Friend near hnii (Mr. Huskisson), though it had. not been substantiated in all its particulars by the evidence, yet was so far borne out, as to the general ex tant and nature of the combinations that existed through out the country, 'and the effect of those conibinations, that it was gait:, clear, from what had come to light, that some. farther intervention of Parliament was absolutely ne cessary. lippeared to him and to others, that the only practical view that could be taken of this subject was` to examine the. actual. state of those combinations, to see .if aAyr alteration had taken place in the conduct of - the parties, n consequence of the repeal of those laws, which itwas,Conti alently asserted had given rise to the cornbinatipaa that for merlv existed—and also to inquire whether the Character of tluess;.: combinations was in, any degree softened or mitigitt ed-„All those points were duly considered, and e it did appear that . the character of those conthinations wai in., ~come degree altered—that they were greater in extent, but moreopen hitheir proceedings,.than they used to be. No less than 13 cases of absolute combination were stated to the Committee, and of these seven had-grown up since the sitting of the ,Committee. With retest , to.alie constitutional .character of those combinations, they had foiiiid it much the same as heretofore. - The: parties met, regularly. and constantly, with presidents, secretaries„ and. committees.,, .Thtyattempted to take from 'the matters all re sources,reStraming them from taking. apprentices: They were.allunder the snperintentience of Committees, which cost:-. - niitteea appeared to,he composed of leading members in the trade-over the great'body of which they presided. The manner in which they, iesaied theirorders, and the . promptitude with which those orders were obeyed, sufficiently shoWed owe. 1 - filifew that in the estimation of many geritlernen,thole comhinatioua were cons,idered as light and unimpOitart. `fire ' , confessed tliat he was of a different opinion. lie viewed the , of 'S4 . VOCt °We very great importance. Ile knew it had !seensaid, that ...47.4 dial of difference might he traced between allectinge, whigli took place about .a round-table aml 'abbut a long.aahle. There - was more eluality at the round—in.- ' dividuals conld niore readily deliver their opinions.; but, at the- langetable, -those who were at Alia - tipper end, . who acted as . direczors, could contrive to have their projects - carried without much interference front those at the lower end, l_helieved was the case in those combination meetings, where the measures were generally carried , by the . worst and Most violent, characters. It appeared that the intervention of journeymen. had for its Object to settle when they would Worlcv. whom the master should -employ, what they should receive, how many, if any, apprentices should be allowed ;—in short, to take all power out ofthe bands of the master. Beyond thili they had, in some cases, painted out men to be : assassinated-7a_ a circumstance which ought not to escape froni the memory of Gentlemen.. lie declared that he had not overstatedalsocasel he had confined hit - itself - to the evidence. In Ireland.it was stated. that 70 or -80 persona . had been wounded.. Of these 30, or 40 had their skulls fractured •, and two had been actually. inur,:, dered, in the open day, without the possibility of bringingthe. murderers to justice. In Scotia:4l, a still more organiied system prevailed, afid he begged leave to call the attention of, the Bouse to the oath 'which was said to be taken by the persons: engaged in Scotland in those combinations. It had been produced before the Committee by a respect. able manufacturer, - and ran thus:—" I, A. B. do Yoe. luntarily swear, in th e aw f u l presence o f Almighty God,, and before those witnesses, that I will execute, as far WI in me . lies, every task or - injunction which the majority: of my society. may impose on me, whether it be the assassination -of opprese sive entltyrannical masters, or the demolition of shops .dearned: incat•eigible.; and I will also cheerfully contribute to the support . 'offery telldiv-workmen who may have left their employment in consequence of any reduction of wages. And I do tardier swear, never tOelivalge the form of dila -obligation, unlet4dulY an thorizedito divulge it by the proper authority." New; stlPPos-: ing this to be a real obligntion (" Hear !" from Mr. Flame) what must be . .the . state of soci e ty amongst those who would not. scruple subscribe it ? Was it fit that such a state of thingS should beSuffered to remain ? Could any thing be more dread : : ful than a Ciatibination. in which vast numbers of personsavere bound together by such a tie ? The Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to detail theevidence OfJohn Kean, al ardian of Glasgow, 'whoin his confession declared that the objecf-or. the workmen in thefr combinations was to keep. up,; their, wages. That there.- were-two committee-men in the general association at Glasgow, whose duty it was to report to the select committee ; and that these committee-men were changed every two months. Be proceeded to describe the orgeniza. don of thesetimirnitteetnand stated, that it appeared by the same_ confession that'it had been resolved to take the lives of four of the workmen, Wright, Dunlop, Lindsay, and Ewers, as soon as possibl e . Thi s committee, it appeared, met every 'Saturday night bet Ween nine and ten o'clock. The confession to which he alluded, had been made by a man who had been convicted of shooting a workman of the nanie of Graham, who had goae' contrary to the wishes of the Committee.. He. felt that it was unnecessary forhim to dwell upon this case, because the atro city of it must strike every 'one, and the opinion of every lion. Gentleman must be, as his was, that a state of things in which such crimes could be perpetrated ought to. be put a stop to without delay. He believed that the same motives were com mon to all the committees, and that they all purified the same course. The evil which resulted from it was perhaps greater than could be calculated at the first sight. The most innocent persons might be led, step by step, to become participators , in acts of the most atrocious description., and from which, if left to their own unbiassed feelings, they would recoil with the ut most üblairrenCe. It was very well known that to ensure suc cess to the designs of any committee like those he was speaking of, numbers were in the first place, and niost of all, necessary. 'To gain these, - every inducement was put in practice. First of all, persuasion and the milder plans were tried ; then money was offered to such as wanted it—then warnings. —then threats and intimidation—and if these were found to be insufficient, then murder, or an attempt to murder, h was resorted to, as h a d been seen in some recent instancea. — All these - v ar i ous means had,' indeed, been lately practised. wro and i the withdrawnneighbourhood from the p o e f m i to en n y d m oni t m of d quietly left their worn, his ,certain Masters. The thipwrights of Bristol bat gone a little farther, and had resorted - to threats. • The coopers of London had made all the workmen who would not_ obey the tales they laid down, as they called it, uncomfortable. It was difficult to say exactly what they meant by " uncomfortable;" but its effects were easily understood. The consequence was, that all the. workmen who had - been made uncomfortable became Mem bers of the Aisociation. The weavers of Yorkshire had pro ceeded as far as threats, and th'e workmen in Scotland had gone even -greater, lengths.. An instance occurred a few days of a man Who had striick;, - . with 'sabers, and who had re ceived a small stun froM the Society ; afterwards, conceiving that lie had permission to leturn to work, he had done so, and was called to accouritlii the society, and punished his'ofFence. In Scofield there had been. more than one attempt to murder, - and in Ireland even sonic men had actu ally.been, murdered.... For_these reasons it was that he, wished: to see the law relating to combinations made stronger, and that the people might be guarded against the possibility of running, into excesses, which in the end must be dangerous to themselves ; and that they should not, as they did now, think it was pieritorious to enter into:combinations against their mas- - ters. He.was no friend to - the - principle of the laws which had been repealed ; lie did not wish to see them re-enacted, but he wished that the common law as it had stood before should be again brought into force. This, he believed, would be quite sufficient for the purpose ; and he expected that in saying this he spoke the general opinion of the House. By that law sufficient powers were given to the workmen for the pre. servation of their own interests: they were permitted to meet for the purpose of, obtaining an increase of their wages ;• but if they went beyond this, and attempted to mix up any ihtirriidatiOn of others in their scheme, it was going too far, The object of the present Bill was to keep up this distinetion, and, every thing beside was left to . the opera - - doh 'of the common law. He thought the . of year went too far, because it gave the men an °ppm , - tunity of controtilling their masters in their trade, and opened to them the power of exercising a compulsion which was unjust and impolitic. The attachMent which some worlimen : had to their masters were very strong; , their affection to their families must of course be much stronger; and yet'the in fluence which their societies exercised over therri was found to be stronger than either, and induced the workman in many in, stances-to neglect - both.; and in prEfdreliCe to obey the orders of the societies. The principle of the bill new before the House' Was to make all associations illegal, .excepting those for the purpose or settling 'such amount of. wages as would be a fair reMuneration to the workmen. ,Ile_ knew it' had been objected that this was not enough; but he thought it was safer and better to point 'out the description of association which was legal than to specify all which were illegal, in doing which there was great danger either of putting in too much or of leaving - out something which might be necessary. - The bill - of last„year was the same in principle - as this, but it - went-411We further, and this, he apprehended, was, the cause of the towel= venience now universally felt. The present bill gave a sum mary jurisdiction. to magistrates ; it did away with the neces sity of a, previtius information, and permitted a 'conviction upon the evidence of one witness only.. These were the principal features of the bill. Re was aware it would disappoint many persons; for there-were some who, listening to their prejudices, thought that the utmost vengeance of Parliament Might to be called down upon these combinations; and who thought that rigour and severity were the best teats of power. For his part; he thought the_bes; test of the Power of Government was shewn in its clemency and nooderatinn. If any future necessity should arise, it would not he difficult. to make the laws more strict, and to vindicate the authority of. Parliament as well as to giro tect the best interests of the country.' If it should happen that the-consumers were inconvenienced by the consequence of these c6mbinations, the Government must take care to provide sup -plies at a-reasonahle rate,. by admitting the productions of other countries. - fle - felt- all the disadvantages which such a Meastire must bring with it, but he felt also that, great as their disad vantages.were, it was better to endure them than to submit to the tyranny of the combinations of the workman. The Hon. Member concluded by moving that the Speaker do leave, the Chair. _ • - - Mir.: ROBERTSON then , rose for the purpose, he said, of offering his opposition to doctrines which appeared at . present to have liecome..fashionable. He then proceeded to argue that the interests of the British navigation and commerce were injured by the existing system. • • Mr. FIUSKISSON submitted that the Hon. ltiember's ob servations were out of order, inasmuch as, they had no reference whateeer to the subject before the House. The:SPEAKER. said, it wac extremely difficult ,to - say whether the observations of the lion. Member had been strictly in orderenenot, they having been applied to the state of Com merce all over the,world. He had, however, no hesitation in saying ; that what had fallen from the Hon. Gentlemao at pre sent had, no:reference-10 the subject of the present discussion. • 11 r.ll 0 BE RTSON resumed,and said he thought that what ever concerned the . general interests of the country might be pro perly enengh introdneed • into this debate. The Hon.,Gentle man ehenprciceeeled s in his olveeryatiOnteL . Mr. PEEL, was conipelled t.,tp. say, :that, after listening for :some time with much attention,he could not see how the obe servations of the. lion. GenileMan bore in any degree upon the. 'question before the Thinee, -It was difficult certainly to. say in •what way a speech might end; but at Present he did not, per ceive any promise orapplichtien. ' ' . . . 11Ir. RORERTSONeafterdefending himself from the charge 'of being out of order, declared that. the repeal of. the Combine don Laws would, in his view, be attended -with the most inise chieeous - consequences to the workmen themselves. - Being enabled, to_extort freur the e ametere any. rate of wages they pleexed, -they Would, pass one half Of their week always in idleness, and contrart . the niostelangerous habits of excess and inn - t itatione - Mr. HU.llE.said, that. the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, (Mr. Wallaee)'had given the workmen any thing - rather than fair play.. None of the abuses of which the masters complain ed so loudly Were at all proved in the evidence before the Heuer,' and at leaSethe existing system had . this advantage. over the state of law - Which was gone by,—there were no more cases of illegal oaths, .no more secret societies. Nndoubt there had been faults, and of late,•on both sides': but-the masters were at least as much to blame as the mechanics ; and he denied that 'any proof of violent conduceat least - to any material extent— had been- given. • •In 'ehe coniplaitiets of . the 'master paper s makers, he thought the-masters were ilecidedty in the wrong._:. So with the ' coopers ; there had been .no violence ; and the House could not legislate to prevent petty feuds and differencee. The journeymen shipwrights had Offered to' meet the masters half-way • the latter hail refused ; and he repeated that the men were entitled to as full a hearing—and: their petitions had - not had it-e-as their employers. And after all, what occasioned these existing combinations, with which the - House was called upon to deal so vigorously - ?—The corn lawe;--the combination of the land-owners, which had raised every necessary of life within the last three years from 30 to 60 per cent. in price. It was aI i ttle hard :to allow the corn grower to bring; his commodity as he chose into the market, andeo shut out all-competition, that he might obtain , hii own price for it ; and then to punish the workmen, who was compelled to buy this artificially . raised commodity of the land holders, for making what efforte he -could to get The • best 'eteseible price for his own. For, if the Masters were to be pro tected by the , Bill of the Right Hon. Gentleman, themen surely had a right to protection too. 'And had they this ? They had not. - If the. masters combined to give their men only half a sufficient rate of- wages, and had strength enough to starve them into taking it, there was nothing in the Right, Hon. Gentleman's Bill to precent them from doitig iere A teditoiv cOuld this danger he met by the workmen, :except by coil:Met-combinations ; - for which, short of carrying them to the theeectepeof violence, lie still 'thought they ought to have the fullest permi ssien ? Besides this; he objected to the discretion which the Bill' proposed to lodge in Magistrates, and thought it would open theitoor to every kind of injustice and abuse. ' When the Bpievasfri the Committee, he should endeavour to get some of its cladses modified; . but, •AS.it istood.at present, he was - bound t 6 ceif4ider" many parts of it objectionable. , • - • - • - It was farther, ' The House then went- into a Committee upon the Bill. ' i rIie,SPEAKER having left Chair, p he re s a u titte c -Of the-Bill, there IIir.',CALCRAPT objected; generally, ; that Sufficient in theellouse. against com. aiy,eaest faulti g n a o t i l o n n ~.I,h i sad.n declarationet opinion,( ! b t e . e t n thhe g a given nn iotohnnet of hinations altogether, whether of_ masters or workmen.— .It Was well known - that a hasty Act ' of: - Legislation had passed in the last Session. That Act, he would admit, had been introduced with the best intentions, .but it had not pro diteed the effects expected from it, and therefore they were now called upon to, consider the - measure before them. H e hop e d that as te subject was again under -consideration, the Com emitted would carefully watch every clause as it went on, so as effectually to guard against the mischiefs which had resulted from thei of the cl ause w hi c h ma d e it penal to ind uce . , . . his work by th reat, or i nt i m id ation, or i nsu lt, et. On yi‘ n the a objected to the wording 'of the clause as too any-man i last tou reading3iieE, leave Ac vague. - The word :' insult" might be construed a thousand ways, and that which might be considered as an insult to one man, would nothe so understood as applying to another. fle thought the clause should be put in a more defined shape: The ATTORNEY-GENERAL defended the clause as it then stood. Mr. MANSFIELD objected to it, and observed, that as he had heard the work men o bj ect to it in strong terms , an d as h e had not heard any d e f ence of it on .the part of the masters, he should oppose . it. If it were to be carried, be did hope that the power of enforcing it would not be left to the discretion. of a magistrate, but that all offences under that clause should be left to the decision of a jury: -Mr. PEEL hoped, that as the Hon. Meinber objected to the clause, he would state his reasons; for it was too much to-call on the Committee to reject the clause, without assigning saint' ground fOr, Such rejection. The clause was inserted for the protection of those individuals who chose to work when - the , great, .body of the per s ons in their' trad e we r e combin e d no t to work , except under-particular circumstances. In fact, it was nothing more than the fair protection of freedom Of labour. - Mr. M ANSFIELD read a letter which he had received froth 'scone of his constituents on the subject, in which they complained of the inquality of the proposed law, as it affected the journey' men and the masters. It was, he contended, unjust to deprive the workmen of the power of fixing the price of their labour. while the tnasters'were al wed to fix the price which they would give. 1101/ HORITOUSEoppoSed the clause as too undefined. l c was the more objectionable, as the decisions upon it were to be left to the discretion' of:a magistrate, and not to a jury. He should not concur in the remarks which had beers made upon the committee of last session. Tlcat committee had proceeded in the most deliberate manner ; they sat from February to May, had examined 100 witnesses—sixty piasters and forty opt' ratives-and- were attended by some of his Majesty's Ministers/ and- occasionally •by 'the Law Officers, of• the Crown. It was therefore unfair to say that - they had come to a hasty conclusion on the subject of their inquiries. If any proof were wanted that the result of their labours were not looked upon with general dissatisfaction by the masters, it would be found in the faet that there'aras.not one petition from the master mechanics of Westminster against the He did hope that if any severe .enactenenta against the operatives were proposed by this Bill, it would not be sanctioned by the House.. • Mr. HUSRISSO,P; said, that the bill of this year was found' ed•upon theresoltitions of the Committee of last Session. The bill Oflast year was not calculated to , give full effect to those re. aohitions . As.Was intended by the present measure. He had na intention of acting harshly towards the operative mechanics•--' All he Wished was, that the. most full and free competition 'should beseiVen,totlie capital,.of the poor man, which was his lab Our, as well as to the capital of the rich. If an Hon. Mem her WoUld,paint , Ql4any.clause .of this bill which operated un justly or With unnecessary severity upon any class, he would oppose it.. The.Ohject,of the bill was to protect the weak against the strong,-to atibrti-pi the man, who chose to give his l a bour for a certain value, that protection •against ,the combination of large 'bodies to which every man was entitled. - Mr. 1 - 1(1111•10USE observed, that lie was willing that the comPetion. - bflabour should tie.as free as air. It was not to an! clause which:Would have the effect Of encouraging such comps; titibn that he objected, but lie did object to the word " insult, as being entirely too vague thr a penal - enactment. Sit l 'WILSON concurred with him Hon. Frf. ad in opinion to the *6O knew .of He kne.of no penal. enacunent S° undefined';eircept at Naples, where a punishment of 100 blows was decreed'against any one who should act in any way " di9• respeeti'ul" to the Austrian .Authorities. As far as this men' Sure went - to 'prevent combinations, he agreed-with it; belt be th 'ought cerdbinateins might be prevented by less objectionabl e causes than that. before the Committee. Mr: CALCRAFF.said he wasnot anxious to press the word CC insult" in the clause ; all lie wanted was, that sufficient pro tection •slintild be'afibrded 0 those-o did not wish to join io combinations. - 'The 'ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, if the / word "insult" was thotight tOo'undefined, he would not press it; but he lia°, preeedent for the adoption of words in a penal clause, wbie a admited of full' s great a latitude of construction. In an Ac , then before him. were the words " molesting or obstructing IV thie-ats, intimidations, or any taller means." , SCARLErr suggested 'that those words should be •adopted In' the Bill. • Caphiin 111ARERLY objected to the clause, as too uncle' fined, particularly as it was to be eAforced by the decision of s ~Magistrate. Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought. ,the . word " insult" s 0; - ciently measured ; but it' the object of th e Bill c ou ld be tained by any other terms, h e would not opp ose th e a lter a tion; The Hon: Baronet then defended the Committee of the preset', Session; which he contended had taken great pains to come s the'truth, by. the examination of witnesses at both sides. . Mr.-HUME contended, that the evidence taken before th e CoMmittee did not warrant the . Right lion. Gentleman 4 statement as, to the ship Margaret. There was not one seei man on board of it belonging .to the Union. He maintaine i e thatthere had not been a single case laid befere the Committ ee on affidavit; which had been made out, when the necessarf witnesses were examined in Support of it. • Mr. PEEL hoped that th e C om Mitt ee .wou ld procee d to' the details of the Bill, - as •sufficient ti me -- had now been co n '‘ sinned in attacking and def e ndin g th e C omm itt ee o f the le., ', and of the present year. A s wor k men were now su bj ec ted ' II such molestations•as tarrin g an d •feathering;or throtr, horaepenids.if they did not join in the combinations int: against their masters, it w as n ecessar y to g i ve th em some he titer protection• than they -lead at present.' Mr. Iftiaesi and Mr. PEEL mutually explained. Mr.. NV. WIIITAIORE contended, that as the Magistrat' in the manufacturing districts were generally inflaters, and the persons who combined were 'generally Workmen, this would give to the masters a power Or oppressing the men, Wt' s which they:ought not to be entrusted. If the re ' were a`Clau) time Bill,'. providing that the' lll ae, •, istrates in those dis trict ShoUldhe paid.by the state ; anti constquently should he directlf f responsible to the,Governtnent for their &induct, a great P art :t his objection So:it..would he removed. jie thought that a Po p ofleppeal ought -to be:given:to the men. If it were not, it wen t , belound necessary in aVkly short time' toprepose, ftir the r'i s s in ry tl , l 3a e l ni g a is n tl u rite fac s, tu . ring dig rifts there . should :4 n a on ju e s b ti n c t e' that stipetitlia 111 i. HUME again.objeeted to time word mmolest,'' est' vague and inexplicit. • •. • • • • . • • The. Committee then divided, - when there appeared— For the. clause, - •- • - • Against it - -• -• •• - - 18 • .' • . - ./1 I ej - . ' - On our re-:tdrnis.sion into the'gtltery, - we found Mr. 1 1 ' ; '-a , on his legs,,contending that the Committee, in giving iti'.ol/' probation to, the, last :clatisa; had been guilty of an act of pressicn towards the people.—( Hear!) . c f , Lord A. HAMILTON:, Mr. W. Sts'yrk, and Mr.CAT,CII,I n . defended. thei r con d uct . in supporting the last clattse,.ina le er throned*the .language which the Hon. Member for A be r ` fe t f a' .had applied to the supporters of it as highly indecorous alga proer. • - rio lls. Sir FRANCIS. BURDETT ohjected - to.this Bill for o reasons ; first, because Sufficient time had not been allow lot c a l; .a trial of Welt it was intended to amend and TeP 4 (l secondly, because it lingi.tage was vague and indefinite; thirdly, because it deprtved the people -of the trial by s J7 s , • and- left them to 'the ar bi tra iy discretion of a single 143'f0; trate. - Be defended the conduct of the Hon.. Membe r s pa Aberdeen. on the present Occazion, and declared that it w" 10 41 wonderthat the Hon. Member was a little warm since he _ . „ c o had - to-contend single-hande:tl against alt the other' Men - as of the Committee. He maintained that the last clause tr a , it) vague as vague could be; and observed that jus ragurt the.opinion of . every,wis c lawyer,-the ite phis ultra of fyla__nr o le, Mr. HUillE prop ose d t h at i nstea d o f t h e wor d s ," o af tation or otherwise-insulting," , the words "to force.or Oa° to forge?' should be used.- •••• -jd The ATTORNEI%OENERAL,said the substitution ",,ef make the clause'unintelligible; for immediately afterwards had the words " forcing or endeavouring to . force.” Mr. HUME then :withdievitheauggestion. Mr. DEN3IAN proposed that the conviction for an ioi r t; ' , tion of this Bill . be:had-by v&rdict of a jury, instead °.' • fore two magistrates.. - There- was no;ippeal froin the deco_ to and therefore, the. old institutions of, the country ought to preserved. . -• ' • The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that the old pro ee c efi a ; ing by indictment •was still preserved, and the suMmary, PT; or was only . necess ar y to afF.)rit , the etiicack of prompt punis' for After acts of violence. • ' a few words from-Mr- Scariett, ;11r. flobbotiSe , r te • Maxwell, And Mr. the Coirmii i ttee divided, when numbers were, 25. • For the Amendment,.s3l4tgainst it, 78 I Majority , u faC l Mr. HUME moved an amendment that no master ma" t he turer, or son of a_rnaster,,, shall sit as a magistrate to enfor ce prdvisions of this Act: - ' • The Committee divided,- • - For the Amendment, 16.1. Against it, 60 Majority , 45 4/0 The House reluroed--ihe %Report wa s ord e r e d. to be rc ev to-morrow (this, day).. - • MR. KENRICK. Mr. DENMA N postponed the further corAderation 0 f Committee on Mr..Kenriek till, to-morrow. • tD c Mr. Abercromby, Mr. Baring, •Mr.- Peel, Mr. Dentha t icl Attorney-General, Dr.. Phillimore, and Mr. C. WY""' 8- few words each. Mr. DCNMAN beggesl•leave, in the most explicit wa ll o p' to disclaim hairing cast any imputation (as be might b e ty ok lo posed to . have done, , from the speeches of some 1 1 ° n e ct„ 111emtiers that evening) upon Mr. - Kenrick, -with Te s ti/el' his having been actuated by any thing like corrupt 10° , these proceedings.. In the Caul of Mr. Martin Canfor,:,ol:v doubtedly desired to be.undeistood.ascharging Mr. Kenrie'. l il4 having manifested extreme partiality, when the whole V.:, of, the case Was Considered; and that charge of partia!!` t asa, did not conceive, was inacle out;.upan the 'evidence ltd"ti a ti` been offered at the bar. He now brought up, a paper r,", C oo' to the caseof C. Franks ;• and , upon which, inasmuch 'ell; tamed the grounds of the charge against Mr. . 1 to •that in respect of Franks he had unjustly proiounced bi t l o oli s o guilty of a felon and had afterwards proposed to comPt it y the affair on the condition that Franks - sliouldpleadi f T Pe h r„; such-felony, which Franks had declined to'do—lie ("`"„: 0 11'" man) gave notice that he would to-morrow submit a In° considering such paper. t9 yoA Mr. AILENCILOMILY and Mi. BAILING were averse.