The Sun. — London, England, 1842-06-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY 14_;VEN1NG: JUNE 18, 1842 ‘ sr t he 1 Penp e out of door s th an t o th e reason i ng f acu ltie s of e mbers ol the H ouse. H e trusted the question would be dis- Pweed with c a l mness and argument, without any appeal to p-e -'hicta He considered the establishment of educational as of questionable policy. It would lead to great ex e, and and be thought it unfair that illegitimate children aban -1""ed by their parents should receive a better education than tialeflest parents had it in their power to bestow. He thought se e er g az nzalinn of district committees most. judicious, and he te 'Rrad to find the Go , ernment had adopted measures fir the er e r -414ti ° 3 of apprentic ' eships. He also was of opinion that it naost important that the Gilbert Unions should not be ai:ed to interfer e with the unity of action which was so de evera le I °' the rood working of the Poor-laws. There were aaomissions in the Bill, however, which he regretted. karn n a ° r was of a clause authorising the boards of guardians to tnean rangements for the payment of the comity .r . Lees, by 4 0 61, cif which the office of high-constable might he for " re ," e d , and the other was the omission of a clause was — g ul ating the rating of small tenements. He ele e ,.4 lll ch obliged to the House for the indulgence with tk e L ," they had heard his remarks. He had net adverted to fate,,,'",.'ag of expense under the new system ; previously the ex t ., " n ` of rates had been ruinous. However, the saving of ei ls e was not the object of the law ; it was to restore ha this of industry p to this British peasantry ; and le s ,ohject the Poor law was greatly calculated to advance. ,7-tinlselleved, on the whole, that it was founded on sound and et,,e'oree principles, and he would not be deterred by any 6uPtliarity from ' supporting the Bill now before the House. there such J OHNSTONE said that upon no question was i Houseeach contradiction of opinion as on that now before t Il es ; L - Much had been sa:d of the uniformity of the system , . , e ac i see lion. Alember gave up that point. The present la se ee l't one man against another to an extent beyond any tetp7" that had ever been passed. It had created a hatred ore e ateleyer and employed. His chief ohjection to the icssi re as tne unconstitutional power which it gave the Com e"- He sho u ld b e g l a d t o k now o f w h a t. use th e A s - Itedees 4 Co enrnission ers were at a ll? O ne part o f t h e measure sa t 've e..' ° Cally overlook e d by th e H on . M em b er w h o h a d the homely, the great difficulty the poor had under enntresent lass of obtaning medical relief. He (Genet al ) 11 144' l irls'ance o f a man having to walk twenty-nine miles sae r e °La end f orwards for medical relief. No medical man enor till:th e third day. and en the fourth he was dead. aie ne " objection to the law was, that the vicious poor and hie "'.'"ere treated alike. With respect to se hat had been he ha relive to the Bassin.- of expense under the present system el ic i n toebserve that, 'during three years previous to . the ace d!.° l ' the present law the poor-rates were diminishing, 'atri et ri ng the last three years they were increasing in every a d e e ; 'As to the difficulty of getting the guardians to attend, fiend, ado ss was o f much consequence to the farmer, and if his lth -n " as a guardian was 30 required he ought to be paid. at eni u. lit a y: e t r e e r c e t w tO as th n e n Commissioners, if they had been of any ground for continuing their pewee so . long bet a .. nkttle Proposed. In some of the items of t! e Bill now te e te Home they did not go far enough. Naeth respect gildfa he r , 6,,itardy clause, he must say he saw no reascn why the d not be compelled to support the mother of the e w ais k ., "ag the time she was incapable of supporting herself. ki t h r ri a lfosed to the workhouse test, which had been so bj ent ` t eth'd on by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, and be must ‘lfea r i :the secon I reading ef this Bill as long as the extraor tirdeed.unlimited [rawer of the Commissioners was con olin e4l thas t'Ls SI BTHORP objected to the Bill, on the grounds t waot' : ailed heavy expense, and useless expense on the ei elhe' ,"" I theut in a n y w i se , t h oug h it had had a trial of leve,eieeteesree bettering the condition of the poor. There . t . vere 'atilt Uses at Uses its th e present Bill upon w hi c h, w h en i n Com 'het i te . "*.sustlel take th e sense o f th e H ouse . Ile regretted 'theo:4oUlti find hims e lf o bli ge d t o su pp or t th e m o ti o n of AleTt i jkietriber f or Rochdale ( Mr. S. Crawford). RIMSDITCH regretted to find such a Bill as the ke-ealenating from the Conservative side of the House. Sel ci ir : that in every part ef the country this law, as now set n it fored under the direeti in of the central power, which the es'3omerset House was condemned by the great mass of tolie r , : i l4 - Upon a careful ' revision of the present Bill, he 11,,..415Need the e Member et/ 01,1 -that it was nothing mare nor less than the Bill of the for the city of London (Lord John tir see s t : _ 'which had .been introduced. It was, to be sure, see t ,'4, nt differently. He did,,not know why the Commission_ Ise* "Ze.corninued for five years longer ; that meant that it !Dale be. Perpetual, and if so, the people of this country chin arms against it.--( Hear, hear.) The prin shocid9n wh his law were based were unconstitutional. Why Z 0 the the his have the power of a veto given cie ns 7s , all eases. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in the Vac eett7 Bill he introduced, treated the Commission as per teet7,:and be opposed it on that ground. He was of opinion 1) 16 7° Powers of the Commissioners ought to be annihilated. teernittPower was despotic and tyrannical, and ought not. to be ida. se e any free country. He trusted the Right lion. ltire as ' e - l e ; would apply his master-mind 3. to the subject, and make ani on acquainted with the evils of the present system. The te,, 4l ,at present were too extensive, and he hoped they would seZie,rs In•pecters ought, in his opinion, to be introduced .tett l e l :lntend the workine of the , who would make e ets to the Secretary ef h State. ( These appeared to him to i"nlee regulations, and would, he felt persuaded, be beneficial print.°4lseed. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the erociples promulgated by Malthus, and adopted by Lord le v e g l i tan'e and said that the principles were unknown to the of E t , egielation of England en the subject. From the time ols ep "!abeth to William the Third the laws relating to the poor sle d rfed in the mo s t b ene fi c i a l manner, but in the latter reign, 11 4 gl s ubsequent ones, Acts wer e p asse d to w hi c h t h e evi l s of 1 4, e oorsiew s)stern might be traced. Then came the present % Del and he conten d e d t h at i t was quite inapplicable to the 1 0 re this country. Why should the people, if reduced ci;na situation which would demand relief, obtain it only on the situation of being deprived of their homes, and having their P atti and chattels sequestrated ?—( Hear, hear.) It was Hu hieh'u'e for the Commissi ners who pre.ided over . the execu poef the law to enter fully into the wants and wishes of the fie e '• Ile should feel it his duty, therefore, however unwil " te differ from the Government, to vote against the second t e , d , er of the Bill. es e l t es e. NAPIER said that there were some things in the ,C i reforelaw of whicilhe approved, and others of which he thet n agl p ova" He objected, in the first place, to penees.WerYs of isa th -) e r Commissioners. He did not see why an ex ehitißl'lallowance should be made to those gentleman, for car *tee; — " at r ,"a law among a class into whose wants they could tot otit.` the objected to the principle of refusing, in all cases, lie Zrelief. He could only say, that in the union in which aithersettlerdian they had felt it their duty to grant out-door Tat v_to.aged men and women, and they had not found "„eate'",l'es to the parish funds had thereby been incurred. I ,l'enis:l;: e / had not insisted en compelling parties to recrea'e sn ints ut'eond the walls of the workhouse. He did not orki n3 P°lftre to create among the people a feeling that the i n see s ", whieh should be a refuee for the destitute, were el ahire . ,-Ytlnt s tateepristins. He also ° objeeted to the bas . tardy "tele • efe did not think that it had had the effect of discou lleeittannorality • while it a eared to him to be cruel and s „. tt nahl charge' unfort as p e p women with the whole of the -mi ttn •-• brineae ; 6 g up their un illegitimate children. In his .t was unwi se to compe l a mot h er t o res id e i n 'le th n "'lose with h er ch i ld. It wou ld b e f ar b etter , and . 4 t. aht s to allow the cl ot mother to leave the workhose Eith"at ena l flo yment'elseehe re which would enable her e to iettic,wa.towards the support of ' her offspring. The present ' v at' eleont°llprevented her from leaving the workhouse without a e de"' was cruel, oppressive and unwise. With respect to le . s. he had understo d that they had given 44 ' Ikea and why, then, not let well alone ? He did thn e se e n so . n why the Right Hon. Baronet should lay tvil assa , t.,„„ unions. 'There were parts of that measure, he i n leea n t - ats of which he approved ; but considering it as a 4 4 felt it ►to be hisd t to vote against the second read , Al e, u tktli,lettli-nafeßnillik NI? said that the people of this . . coun .. try were p et the se Mous in their opposition to the .. .tiewould sei th " ( nl a se that in the north of England the lawearn ts e Otelate n "achy and oppression which was a disgrace to t, 13 th e f e •• He challenged the Right Hon. Baronet, who jt"t-lesseliTa.arthe pre - sent measure, to show ins old tre, s o been ad 'west inefficient, and that the manner which Kr 4eee rs "eel ' ted necessi'ated the appointment of Com "' Somerset House. That law had protected the the had "': 4. • and 1 called upon *li t fterp,-_ , ‘"erl general satis f ac tio n ; he 'ti tale i s , i , "'cot to assign ally reason why they should sub 'tete, ts stead mime" ure which was repugnant to the Con eiti 4 4 , this c ory.ln the south of England, no doubt, the 'a le ` 144 be ( 4 '4 ' 1 (.4 00 _ en abused ; but if properly executed it would have tly t t e , "Y Purpose which a Poor-law should . accomplish. k e et raet Ctan extract from a Report of Dr. hay, showing tne as utte) Ween the labourers of the north and those of the re Ha h , °lig e ~ bad thus proved that the old Poor-law was well ki,; l o eg - i r et '''` ted °Y the proprietors of the north . of England, , but , o , , eattee „ and abused by the proprietors of the south tereasi nn tie thought, therefore, it was a mighty system of th e 'aas l e:4 1 1 1 1 4 1, the poor of the north should be punished for. l i e 'Nth . cif omission and commission ef she proprietors o toeNee, t, The Commissioners found they could net carry out s or t' as i t :°r-laws unless they removed the surplus popula esZY th at. ti, s called, from the south of England, and he was e t im i atry h claim of the poor to a share in the soil of the eeld have . been treated so lightly. They had a co:in t:as- 6Motet.t „n il to it, and he hoped it would never be forgot - de 14, 'late ral "3' of the poor of the south of England clung d e keen affection to the homes of their birth, and she Poor- P" l ee ra's'loners actually recommended . that they should be 41 14•;: ad t a their homes by starvation.—(oh, oh ! ) Oh, ' he c't: he art of a Report from an Assistant-Commissemer. 4, 7 ` 4 1, Jul „ „ re , ,eetornends it. It was a Report dated Man- If t ee to te ‘ - ‘ O , lef3s, in which he says, "Necessity must , e of the eto rt teale now present population f om their homes.' read them a lett e r f r om a manufacturerinthe t o l ithe , p o n n g r l , a i ll a d ; who had b een it s cons t an t communication %io n ! , L, e h "? Commissionets. It was from Mr. Greg t he Iters es . ad wick, the Secretary of the Pour-law Comis of 4allsfi on l e n s g a wish to open a correspondence with him on ta t ,: f ul Procuring a supply of labourers from the south the ember the n ort h. N o R epor t had ever been made of t o ale th e r'f the p oor k i dnappe d in this manner ; and he was 141 ter 4 1 6 ' 1 ' as le it, but he thought he could prove enough . e interference of the House. '1 he communication t e „ u tletr e i mmense number of different descriptions et e s ,atee tha t would be r. quired • and it was this he de to"Nier''t manufacturers of the. north should have th o rb see a conspi racy w i th the P oor-law Commissioners w ese, tari surplus popu l at i on of the south. The Right f re 'thi t h )4e,t might think h e h a d not g i ven su ffi c i ent proo f s the a Ash; "ad stated; he, therefore, quoted another letter 13 4 1 4 4 firth. to E. Chadwick Esq. giving an account of e n 'in g ", a family of four persons, ' w ' Ito had migrated from th at kalushire. Another letter stated that employment otsh "Was. ti r , n ished to twenty thousand of the poor of the south ; the svas a proposal to kidnap that number, and was oh ) in which to treat the poor of England?—(oh, It;rcui4nlllloshrotuulnditbyeagflaandsiwfearniny, Hon Gentleman would give a speech . of his, in which he ":le.seeeaent.ain that this was not he case. Another letter to et:•elelvtirsk stated cettieso ,Stalk that twelve stout girls and boys had been tl.O 11 0 t-a, ges and considered that too many hands siettles,„ forwarded. Ile would not have trespassed on eke m '',"ilon of the House, if he had not thought veit,414„:441111 r esponsibility attached to him, and as tii-" lit r - of that etwohatio House, he was going to hold up to d ze soli a a. publieservant of the Government for be ng into the most oppressive slavery those poor 441.niserable wretches. -- Dr. Kay, an Assistant pl Isenittelssioner, had published a work called the 4-tßeical Condition of the Working Classes ems kr110164 tkucenCotton Manufacture of Manchester." In this te l i ‘le ig fr ee , °° the degrading and depreciating influence treve„, Ills ceaseless and monstrous employment. And s loenie7sconelition into which Dr. Kay became a paid agent N." le the labo u fe st ifersh rers of the south from their green fields tk q t ext r • (The licesourable Gentleman read some ttat,.ll‘...lac_st:r describing the debased condition of the menu tss7nin evhithruth er aattiseC n ''' . li:it:their low diet, and inconvenient dwellings. onev esation as then went on to quote from Dr. Kays e Learned Gentleman spoke of the manuface being freently the victims of inflame ";e4lise lat afa ue h rla re a .. " ." e '• — (Cries of " Oh, oh," cheers, and n aseeh7,l l ;e• ne knew what that cheer meant, but he e wh . q-nge any H on IC i. Leh h e sits , an etnber to lay his finger on a single die 3 / 4 41friv at, se x 4f. herrd) had ever uttered, either in pub to , the • • t to inculcate loyalty to the Queen and obe efirftaasms,."s•—(Cheers and leughter.) He would say entillt.ttese)lsnocriploysite, " Go,. and . do likewise."—( Shouts t11 7 11, ,aeu z444. : 14! gaenfiterfehr litUardne sp ti o t l c ti o r pinion s of Dr. Kay before he .g the poor from the south to reee esee, p. . e a becom e an Assistant Poor-law erasetot-n -blessings o f t h e cond i t i on of the 15,.446.,.._ ;"---serJf aboglowing ,e l'un th u e e d se sn the mostcolours. Would Commissioners power for five years • ' 7 111 14 the Commissioners tome to the bar, and say that the labouring population of the south were beguiled? Would they express their sorrow for lending themselves to the system of kidnapping the poor from the south to the north? Where, he would ask the Right Hon. Baronet, were the poor who had already been passed to the north ? Could he render any account of them to the poor relations immured in the bastiles in the south ? If he could not render an account of what had become of these poor the people of England would not submit to this measure much longer. The laws of God had been trampled on, and Ilis word scoffed at by the New Poor-law, which denied the authority of the Bible. From tho moment the Peor-law had become tin , law of the land the trade of the districts to which these wretches had been passed had deca4ed daily. These wretches had been passed from the south of En, land, not fur their own benefit, but to save the pockets of the rate payers. Saving of rates was the burden of the song of the Poor-law Commissioners. When the law was first brought forward it was declared by Lord Brougham that there was no intention to carry it out in an oppressive mariner, and that it was not intended to separate man and wife, or parent and child. He (Mr. Ferrand) knew that those opposed to the law frit as strongly as he did on the subject. He would ask the Right Hon. Paronet, if the Commissioners had been able to carry the law into force in the north ? They had not. They could not. The mass of the population would prevent it. In Isis own union ii had been attempted to be carried out in the most monstrous and unjustifiable manner. It was a large manufacturing district in a state of deep distress, and yet. the Poor-law Commissioners, in order to carry out their absurd ideas, had prohibited out-doer relief. If the Guardians tempted to carry out that order, a worse state of ruin would in stantly ensue. They would have to summon the poor by thou sands for nun-payment of rates, and incarcerate them in the county gaols, which would have to be made larger. They de ducted from the relief granted by the Board of Guardians to the paupers the amount clue from them for summonses for non payment of poor-rates. Was it not monstrous that persons of 70 or 80, or 90 years of age, should be torn from their homes and placed in a union illerkhouse, at the will of these three Commissioners. How would the Right Honourabte Barcni t carry the Poor-law out ? In his (Mr. Ferrand's) neighbourhood, the relieving officer was obliged to go about the country escorted by a troop of cavalry. The men of the north had always done their duty by the poor—they challenged any man to produce an instance of their having be haved ill to the poor whilst they were permitted to have the management, of their own affairs—and all they asked was to be pet mated to continue as they had hitherto gone on. It was not twelve months since they had all appeared on the hustings before their constituents. At that election how many of them had expressed their utter detestation of the new Poor-law, and pledged themselves to resist it to the uttermost.—( Opposition cheers.) Were they determined to stand true to their prin ciples and professions. The electors of England were eas ly satisfied. If they performed one twentieth part of what they had promised, the Bill would not be carried.—( Cheers.) He saw Pie lion. Member for Montrose shake h s head. He hoped that those who were opi oscd to the new Poor-law were not die. posed to vote that black was white. He trusted they would not desert their pledges ; if they remained true to them this hill would no longer disgrace the St ttuteebook of England. The poor wou'd be properly treated, and not be delivered over to the tyrants of Somerset House. Sir. J. GRAHAM said that the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had asked if any Member would, after the state ments he had made, venture to press the second reading of the Bill upon the attention of the House? Notwithstanding that challenge, he ( Si: J. Graham) was prepare d to press the see cond reading of the Bill. With respect to the observations of the Hon. Member, in which he alluded with a sneer to the benevolence of Dr. Kay, he (S.r J. Graham) must say that a more truly charitable and accomplished gentleman, and one more fitted to discharge his duties th n Dr. Kay, he had never known. As to what had been stated about the power of the Poor-law Commissioners, and their mode of using it in issuing prohibitory orders, he must say, that if he wished for any test by which to try the discretion of those functionaries, he would take the manner in which they issued those prohibitory orders, and abstained from them as the case seemed to require. The Right Hon. Baronet here proceeded to quote at considerable length the Report of Mr. Mott, showing the mismanagement that had characterized the mode of giving relief to the poor, and the necessity of applying a remedy, and then went on to show the jobs which had been committed under the sanction of the Guardians in various Unions, and particularly in the Union of Keightley, where, accarding to a resolution in the minute-book of the Guardians, the trials of settlement eases were to be given in rotation to the attorneys of the town. The consequence was that the law expenses for the last year in that union were upwards of SCOI. He had not in ter (led to rise on the present occasion, but having heard so unjust an attack upon Dr. Kay, as the Hon. Member for Knares borough had made, he could not sit by without rising in defence of that gentleman's character. But to return to the subject before the House, who were the Hon. Members that proposed and seconded the rejection of the Bill ? One was an Irish Gent eman (Mr. S. Crawford), who could not have seen the working of the measure, anti Who being Member for the only large town in England (Rochdale) which was not under the operation of the Poor-law, could not be practically conver sant with it. The other gentleman was the Hon. and Gallant Member for Brighton (Captain Pechell), which was under the operation of a local act. On the o her hand those were the most ardent supporters of the law, who were connected with places where it was in full operation. The real question now was, whether the Commission was to be continued, or not; fur the other parts of the Bill were mitigations of the existing law.—( Hear, hear, hear.) When Hon. Gentlemen proposed a substitution for the Commission, the substitute they sug. Bested was something very like what they would do away with. The Honourable Member for Roch dale proposed an ambulatory Commission, which was the existing Commission without the mime, and the Hon Member for Macclesfield proposed district Commissioners.— ( Hear, hear.) There were four reasons on which he justified the continuance of ,he Commiision. The first was that relief was given gradually and safely ; the second, that what was found to be injurious in one union might be remedied by them in the different unions thri.ughout the country ; the third reason was, that if an ythi ng ill ega l was done, relief might be had from the Supreme Courts of law ; and the fourth, and strongest reason was, that recourse should be had to the local Magistrates, which would let in all the abuses of the old sys tem, of which an illustration was afforded by the recent pro ceedings in the Keightley Union. He had troubled the House at greater lergth than he intended, but after the calmest and fullest consideration of the subject he came to the conclusion that the original enactment was right in the main, a: .d believing it to be right he was regardless of the censures that might be passed on him and on his motives ; but he (lid not think he would be doing his duty if he did not urge upon the House the second reading of the Bill.—(Cheers.) Mr. FERRAND, in explanation said, that he. plelged him self that the report of the Assistant-Commissioner with regard to the Keightley Union was false. Mr. S. WORTLEY did not think it necessary to detain the House for any length of tittle, and for this reason, that the main point was whether the Commission was to be continued. He was determined to maintain the opinions he expressed upon the hustings, and he would be belying his convictions if he be lieved the Eight Hon. Gentleman,_ or the Commissioners, or Assistant-Commissioners; were what they were sometimes re presented to be—demons and tyrants.—(Laughter.) He cer tainly differed wi-h them in opinion upon the :subject of the Poor-law, but with regard to the continuance of the Commis sion, he held it to be impracticable and impossible to remove the central Commission at present, and if he voted for the se cond reading he did so in an abstract sense. But that did not prevent him - from evincing a general hostility to the Bill. lie, therefore,suppot ted die continuance of the Commission only while a necessity for it existed ; but they should not forget the grounds of its institution, and that it was established only for specific purposes. He should not, therefore, be considered as supporting the Commission as a permanent institution, but only so long as the exigency for working out the purpt ses in which it originated existed. With regard to the Bill Wore the House, he admitted there were improvements on the existing law ; and one very considerable improvement was the afford ing temporary relief to families under certain circumstances. These were, however, but matters of detail. The principal question before them was, whether it was a lvisable to agree to the second reading of the Bill, taking it as a whole. Of the powers of the Commissioners he could nut app►ove ; and he could not but express at the same time his dis approbation of the manner in which those gentle men had constructed the unions. Many of the unions were too large ; and this had been found to be a source of great inconvenience. He earnestly wished that the House, taking into account the inapplicability of the measure, would re-consider the whole question. He thought that they should take into considerat'on the pr, pt iety of intrusting the execution of the Poor-law to the local authorities. The principle of self government was one of the most valuable principles of the social condition of England. 'I hey might, under the authority of the Commissioners, gain greater uniformity in the adminis tration of the Poor• law ; but that advantage would, in his opinion, be too dearly purchased by the loss of those habits of self-government which had become familiar to the people of this country. He did not say that they should at once get rid of the new system; but he thought they should endeavour gradually to return to the old principle of entrusting she administration of poor rates to those who, by their posi tion, were best acquainted with the wants of the poor. Colonel WOOD (Brecon) was one of those who would wish to see the Bill divided into two parts. He would be glad to find the Government prol•ose that the authority of the Com missioners should be continued for a limited time ; and he thought they should afterwards consider, in the next session of Parliament, the propriety of introducing many alterations into the present system. He disapproved of the principle cf making the casual poor chargeable to all the unions, instead of making them chargeable to the parish in which they were living. Mr. LIDDEL thought that the House should not at once put an end to the authority of the Commissioners. He thought such a proceeding would be impolitic ; but, at the same time, he could not vote for so long a duration of the Commission as had been proposed by the Government. fie should not, how ever, vote against the second reading of the Bill, as he believed it might be materially improved in Committee. The principle that the workhouse shou:d be taken as the test of destitution was not, he thought, applicable to the manufacturing dis tricts. In periods of deep and general distress, such as the present, relief should be given out of the workhouse to de serving objects. It appeared to him that a greater degree of discretion should be placed in the hands of the local boards; and he did not wish to see the entire administration of relief under the immediate control of Commissioners resid ing at a di-tance frorri the scene of distress. He had expected that his friends now in power would not have sanctioned the present system of Poor• laws, and he was sorry to find that he had been disappointed. Unless the Bill were materially altered, he should certainly feel it his duty to vote against the third reading. He was decidedly opposed to the power as sumed by the Government of at once, and arbitrarily, abolish ing the Gilbert Unions. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House di vided, when there appeared,— F.r the second reading Against it Majority far the second reading -199 The Bill was then read a st cond time, and ordered to be com mitted on Monday. FOREST OF DEAN. The Report on the Forest of Dean Ecclesiastical Districts (Advance of Money) Bill was reported aftei a short discussion, Mr. Hume withdrawing his opposition to the bringing up of the Report. upon an understanding from the Right Hon. Ba ronet, at the hi ad of the Government, that the next stage should be taken at an early hour, and full opportunity given to discuss it. On the motion for the third reading of the Dean Forest Poor Bill, Mr. G BERKELEY moved that the Bill be read a third time that. day six months, Mr. T. DUNCOMIIE moved that the debate should be adjourned. After a few words from Mr. HOME and the Earl of LINCOLN, Mr. G. BERKELEY suggested to the Hon. Member for Finsbury to withdraw his motion for adjourning the debate. Mr. T. Duncombe acceded to this suggestion; the motion was withdrawn, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the third reading of the Bill Against it Majority in favour of the third reading The Bill was then read a third time, and passed ASSESSED TAXES BILL. The Assessed Taxes Bill was then read a third time, and passed. MERCANTILE MARINE. Sir CIIARLES NAPIER. moved for a " Seeet Committee to inquire into the state of the Mercantile Marine, with a view to ascertain whether our seamen are on the increase or de crease, and whether the Registration Bill is effective or not." If the motion were likely to lead to debate, he would with draw it. On an intimation from Sir R. PEEL, we understood that the motion was withdrawn. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. In answer to a question from Captain PECEIELL, Sir ROBERT pEEt .said that the public business would commence at Half-past:T4ii'euqtionday. The House then adj(itiriled :it a'Qualerio One o'Clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, june 17. Their Lordships met at Fixe o'Clo k. On the motion of-Vt - Ihtiti4 ii_ , OLLINGTON the • Sugar Duties Bill wa,*: r^eAd4,:Onrd..titne and passed. H E (4t)T.E:;s 7 li-f41411'E11 , . Lord CLONCURltVin'qiiied-'is - liather any portion of the money collected,- in7ronsequence of the Queen's letter, would be applied to the relief of the poor in Ire land ? The Duke of WELLINGTON said that if the Noble Lord had given notice of his question he would have been prepared to answer it. Ile would give the answer on the first day the House met again. Lord FPI ZG ; ERALD said that the collections were all made in England and Wales, and Ireland had cun• trihuted nothing. Lord CLONCURRY said that subscriptions had ben raised in Ireland, but they were inadequate, in conse quence of the incomes of the gentry being spent out of the country. The Earl of RADNOR wished to ask one or two questions before the business of the Income-tax came on. lie wanted to know what was the reason of the distinc tion of 21 in Scotland and 31 in England ? The Earl of RIPON said that in the former Income tax Bill the tenant was charged upon two-thirds of his rent. But it was found that this operated unequally upon the Scotch tenants, who paid higher rents in pro portion than the English. T 111;; INCOME-TAX. The Earl of RIPON rose to propose the third reading of the Income-tax, and in dohig so, he would have to draw upon their Lordships' attention noire largely than he should wish, but ho would endeavour to compress into the narrowest compass what he had to say, by treating the matter as one merely of business, and by avoiding the introduction of topics which would lead their minds from the consideration of the Bill itself. The first thing would be to bring before them the actual state and condition of the fina,nc.s of the country, which was the foundation of the Bill. During the last few years there had been a ct.mtinued deficiency in the Revenue in the following ratio:—ln the year 1833 the deficiency was 1,423,0001.; in 1839 it was 430,0001.; in 1840 it was 1,457,0001.; in 1841 it was 1,51,000/., and this year, 1842, up to the sth of April the de ficit ncy was 2,139,0001. The deficiency had been largest in the two last years. Titis alone would be euf cient to show the unsatisfactory state of the country, es pecially when the circumstances were considered which occurred whilst the habitual deficiency was going on and it would be impossible to melt the exigencies of 1843 without resorting to some new measure of finance. The revenue of the year amounted only to 48,353,000 L, whereas the expenditure, reduced as far as cir cumstances would permit, amounted to 50,944,000/. the deficiency being 2,594,0001, and taking toeseiher the deficiencies of the six years there was an actual defi ciency of 9,593,000/. The deficiency of 1841 was greater than that of any of the antecedent years, although there had been an actual increase of the re venue from the finanbial measures of the Government, which however, although successful to that extent, was not sufficient to meet the expenditure. The great increase in the expenditure of late years was entirely in those great items of expenditure denominated our military establishments, and which it had been found necessary largely to increase, with a view to ensure the honour and character of the country. In the year 1838, the expenses of cur army, navy, and ordnance, amounted to 12,827,000/. In the year 1839, these expenses amounted to 13,273,000/. ; and there was in that year an additional expenditure in Canada of 500,000/., making the total military expen diture of that year 13,773,0001. In the year 1840, our military expenses amounted to 13,762,0001, and the ex traordinary expenses of that year were 716,000/., making a total of 14.478,0301. In the year 1841, the ordinary military expenditure was 14,012,0301. ; and the whole expenditure, including the entlay in Canada and Chins, amounted to 14,617 ,000 E In the year 1842, that was to say, up to the month of April of the present year, the oral- • nary military expenditure was 14,705,000; and when to that was added the extraordinary expenses in Canada and China, the entire expenditure of the year amounted to 15,348,00(i. There had, therefore, been an increase in our military expenditure, eince the year 1838. of upwards of 3,000,0001. Neither did he see any prospect that that expenditure would, for sonic time to come, be diminished. They had wars in the East of which the) could n t cal culate the termination ; and it would even re. w be necessary to make good a deficit of 700,000/. in the axpcnses of the China war. T__e total deficit in the r. venue at the expiration of the year 1812 amounted to 10,000 0001. ; tint! as there was no prospect that that eficiency would be :upplied by a fortunate t oncurrence of events, that was the basis of his arguments for the imposition of the tax upon incomes ts hich he was about to propose. The necessity of equal sing our revenue and ex pendiaire, he thought he need not argue. It was plain that it was not safe to leave the revenue of the country with an in creasing deficiency. One of the reasons of the deficiency was the reduction or, the postage, and on that occasion the defi ciency was 2,332,0001. ; and then Parliament proceeded to enact new takes to the amount of 2,337,0001. It became ne- CO, ary, when the present Government came into office, that of many articles which were imported from foreign countri..s, and upon which duties were levied, a thorough revision should take place. This was shown the more necessary from the im port duties having but a year or two ago b: en raised in some eases as high as twelve per cent. Having had some experi ence in these matters, he had always found it more difficult to take a tax off, and more likely to create dissatisfaction, and un easiness, and alarm, than it was to put that duty on. Ot course they had had to contend with those difficulties, and he thought no one would say that they had not done their duty in laying a foundation for a better arrangement and adjustment of those duties. They could not of course carry this object into effect without incurring a considerable loss of revenue. They had, then, to consider what the amount of deficiency would he without an alteration of th" tariff, and also what it would be with that alteration. The estimated deficiency, supposing that no alteration had taken place in the tariff, was 2,594,0001., and the estimated loss in consequence of a reduction in the tariff was taken at 3,780,000/. It was, therefore, necessary to impose additional taxation. The Income-tax was estimated to produce 3,700,000/., and alteration in the stamp duties in Ire land 160,0001., and the spirit duties in Ireland were estimated to produce 250,000/. It was also briginally estimated that 200,000/. would be realized from an export duty on coal, but owing to some modification it would not exceed 160,0001., the whole of these taxes being 4,310,000/. Out of that they had to deduct the deficiency for the year of 2,700,0001., which would leave 1,740,000/. From that they had to deduct the loss by the tariff, which would leave a surplus after meeting both cases of 520,0001. It was therefore impossible to meet these deficiencies by any other plan which possessed so few objections. The addition of 10 per cent. to the assessed taxes did not realise the expectations of those who had of iginated it. He therefore thought they had sufficient ground for the proposition of her Majesty's Government. He was aware that it had been said that they could re-establish taxes which had been taken off in 1815. Nothing could be attended with more difficulty than this. It appeared that since the war the reduction had been no less in the Customs than 9,921,0001. In the meantime, however, Parliament re-imposed 3,746,000/. It was, therefore, clear that any attempt to make good the deficiency by raising the Customs duties, which had been reduced upon the very principle which regulated the new tariff, would fail. For instance, the duty open cotton wool which supplied labour to so large a portion of the population. Since the war the duty upon that article had been reduced to the amount of 1,324,000/. What would be the consequence of re-imposing that duty ?—( Hear.) In fact, ' nothing Lut the consideration of revenue could justify the re taining of the duty that was row levied upon it. The next was the duty upon tonnage. He thought that no one would say that this duty should be again raised to its former amount. He believed that, looking to the increasing competition of foreign mar.ufacturers, no one would say that it would be right to raise the duty upon raw material. . As to the duty upon coal, would any one say that it should be increased ? Again, look to silk. Would you recommend that the duty upon that commodity should be increased, when it was of such vast importance to our own manufacturers? If he were to go through the whole of these items, he could convince their Lordships that it would be impossible to raise 100,0001. in that way. Coming to the Excise. There had been since the peace a reduction altogether of 10 000,0001. Would they re-impose that ? Take the first article, malt. Ile was one who had always resisted the total repeal of that tax. But would any one say that it should be raised? The next article was salt. Was it not the general outcry against that tax, whilst it existed, that it deprived the poor of one of the necessaries of life? He was sure that none of their Lordships would recommend the reimposition of that tax. He said the same of the tax upon leather, for the collection of which the most clumsy and vexatious contrivances had been necessary. Great reductions had taken place in the Excise upon spirits. In the late regulations of the Government there bad been an increase of one shilling upon Irish spirits. But in raising the duty upon that commodity it was necessary to take care that they did not give encouragement to that most demoralising of all practises —smuggling. In that article there could be no increase. With respect to printed calicoes, no one would think of re-imposing there a duty of 2,500,0001. for the sake of a revenue, which. with the drawbacks, yielded only 525,000/. It could not be supposed that it would he palatable to the country to reimpose the stamp duties on law proceedings, which were very properly designated as taxes upon justice.—( Hear, hear.) Next was the tax on advertisements. Those yielded 147,0001. ; they ' had been considerably reduced, and although the revenue had not quite recovered from the reduction, still the number of ad vertisements had been greatly increased, and the public pro portionately benefited. Then there was the reduction of 391,000/. taken in 18.36 off the tax upon newspapers. He did not think that the House of Commons would be disposed to re-impose that tax, and he was sure that such a proposal would not meet with the approval of the members of the late Administration, with whom the reduction had originated. It might, however, be said that they might increase the revenue, by an addition to the assessed taxes. He doubted, however, whether such a course would be acceptable to the country, or whether it would in itself be politic. They had, for instance, abolished the house dax, and he questioned whether it would now be advisable to re-impose it. No tax would be felt more grievously by the poor, than such a tax • it would render their dwellings still more uncomfortable than they were at present. So, again, with respect to the window tax ; its re-imposition would press severely upon the humbler classes. It might, however, be said that they could impose those taxes exclusively on the rich. But it should be observe I, that if they were to adopt such a course, they would hold out an inducement to parties to evade such taxes, by reducing their expenditure. He thought he had said enough to show, that by no change in our taxation could the present deficiency in the revenue be supplied. There were some parties, however, who thought it advisable that we should increase our revenue by a fixed duty upon corn. Now, he should say that he doubted the polio) , of making a duty upon corn a part of a fixed fiscal plan. It would be most unsafe to rely upon it as a source of revenue, as the amount of duty to be raised by such means, would necessarily perpetual:y fluctuate. Then then:: were the articles of sugar and corn. They could not, consistently With good policy, raise a large duty upon timber, which was an article of hourly use, and of the utmost importance. It entered into ma' ma nufactures, our buildings, and cur shipping ; and he did not think that any party would wish to see a large amount of revenue raised by a high rate of duty upon such an article. Sugar was the next item. The idea which had occurred with respect to sugar, had been recently sta . ed elsewhere. It was said that a reduction in the duty would benefit the con stirrer. Now he was ready to admit that a reduction of the duty would do so if it were carried far encugh ; a small reduc tion would have no good effect. Let them see the effect on the revenue. The proposition was 4s. on one-sixth of the present duty, and on foreign it was 30s. instead of 635. Now, what would be the (fleet of that, ? In would, in the first place, be to diminish the revenue derived from British sugar one-sixteenth. In 1841, the net revenue derived from sugar was 5,114,000/. ; consequently, if that duty of 20s. had been levied instead of 245., the effect would have been to reduce the amount of that one-sixth, and there would be a loss of 852,000/. But the as umption was not only a loss, but that there would be an increase to the_ revenue, arising from that charge, estimated at 700,000/. ; so that, by this plan, they were to lose 852,0001., with a gain of 700,000/. to meet it. The consumption of the last year was the largest ever known in this country. The c onsum pti on wa s equi valent to 24ilb. per head, and th e average price was 375. IV., exclusive of duty. The duty being 205., according to this hypothesis, would raise the price to 575. lid. In the years 1830, 1831, and 1832, the price of sugar was remark ably low: Years. Price. Duty, Total. In 1830 1831 1832 ...... 275. 6d, the average price for ti:e three years being 50s. 3d. Now, to reduce the price from 245. to 305., would have the effect of re ducing the price down to the average price of those years. Now, what cold be tie amount of that addition to the con • sumption, which was about Ilb. per head, and would an - .ount to 8.328 tons of sugar ? The total amount of consumption would be 218,7:1 tons, producing an increase to the revenue of 218,0e01., and this to meet 820,0001. loss. These were the grounds in on which he defended the course adopted by her Mejeety'e Government—the situation of our finances, without any prospect of a reduction in the expenditure, would justify the course they had pursued. It was absolutely necessary to make a great shirt once for all, and therefore he conceived, that in spite of all the objection—in spite of all the supposed beeefits offered by other schemes—schemes more plausible, in one sense— in spite of all, lie still thought their Lordships wauld do well to follow the example of the other House of Parliament, and pass that 13111 as the most efficient mode of meeting the exigencies, which must be met somehow, and which, if they oid not meet, they would expose the.country to the greatest i.ossible evils. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose to more the resolution of which he had given notice for the second readine of this Bill. He was happy that his absence had not retarded the progress of this Bill, which it had never been his wish to ob struct.—(Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington.) All that he widsed was, to have an opportunity, with those who agreed with bins, of expressing his disapprobation of the mea sure. He entirely agreed with the Noble Lord who had just addressed the House, that it was necessary that the revenue should be raised to an equality with the expenditure, and that the deficiency ought not to be made up by an addition to the national debt.—( Hear.) Neither did he think that anything could be done by reducing the establishments of the country, which were rot greater than the exigencies required. As to the present difficulties of the country, he was neither so san guine as to suppose that they were immediately to terminate, nor was he so desponding as to apprehend that they were to be permanent. But he agreed altogether with the Noble Lord that the deficiency was to be dealt with, without these conside rations ; that it was to be supplied without considering whether it was for this year only or for many in prospect.—( Hear, hear.) But then he came to the question of the Income-tax as a substitute for all those taxes which at present were in existence. It might be a great and beneficial change from the present system of taxation to cne of income— it might be a beneficial change : but it was one which they were not in a condition to discuss. It was a change, which was not warranted by a deficiency of two millions ar.d a half. It would stand to reason at all times that when they were called upon to make good a deficit they should do so as far as pos sible by modification of existing taxes. How much more so was that necessai y when they considered the distress and suf fering of a large portion of the population ? In such circum stances, if they w ere compelled to resort to direct taxation, it should be to tiiat mode which would be the least burthensome and the least unpalatable. Let them see how this applied to the Income-tax. The book was on the table; it was large, thick, and voluminous; it was a gigantic offspring of a five months' labour.—( Cheers.) It was certainly an effieacious tax. So was the lancet an efficacious instrument. The tax would surely draw the mosey from the pockets of the people as the lancet would draw blood from the veins of the patient., or from the arteries perhaps, as there was litt'e discrimination in the mode of applying it, or regard to the consequences which would follow to the constitution or comfort of the patient. Efficacy was the sole recommendation of the new tax. It had been elsewhere boasted that the tax would affect the rich alone, that, in fact, they were taxing themselves; but was it not really the case, that this tax struck immediately at that capital which put the labour of the country into activity, and that. the only savings by which those who paid it could relieve themselves of the burden, would came from that fund from which employ ment was given to the people? An Income-tax was a gigantic instrument, which had been used in cases only of the greatest exigency ; and he could not but feel surprised that the Govern ment had thought it necessary to have recourse to it to meet a deficit of 2,500,000/. It reminded him of a party who had an elephant sent to him, which he employed in his garden in seve ral trifling services ; but he soon found that the trouble of keeping the elephant more than counterbalanced the services which the animal rendered. The Income-tax had in addition, the great disadvantage of being essentially an unequal tax. It was unequal, even with respect to the landed proprietor • for although parties might seem to have the same int e rest inland, there were various circumstances which, in reality, rendered their interest very different. It was very unequal as regarded tenants, whose interest in their hold ings was influenced by various circumstances, which could not be taken into account by the collectors of an Income-tar. But the tax pressed still more unequally on trades and professions, which were for ever varying and uncertain. He had a still fur ther objection to an Income-tax, in the fact of its being one of the most inquisitorial nature. He thought he hail said enough to convince their Lordships that nothing but an abso'ute neces sity could justify their agreeing to this tax. He denied that this necesdty existed. He believed that there were other means of increasing the revenue. He was not going to revive the discussion on tie Corn-laws, but, the principle of protection having been confirmed by both Houses of Parliament, he must say that this tax seemed to be, not for the purpose of benefiting the people, but merely of protecting those laws passed for pro tection. The corn introduced last year, if a fixed duty had ex isted, would have produced 500,0001. in addition to what it had produced. He then came to the question of sugar, and if ever there appeared to be created by Providence an article made to be subservient to the wants of the pe,ple, that was sugar. It being an article pro duceel abroad justified a small duty on its introduction: This article demanded the care of the Legislature, and that care was given not absolutely to deprive the poor man of this article, but to extremely narrow .his consumption of it.—( Cheers.) Noble Lords could hardly believe the suffering of the poor cottager from this deprivation. He had had personal oppor tunity of witnessing this. The consumption had been reduced by this sort of legislation to less I er head than a convict's al lowance. In 3r'ine cases it had been reduced to one-fourth the amount of a convict's allowance. It had been found that a cottager had at first taken sugar from one member of his family after the other, until it was found that he only pur chased at last enough to sweeten the food of a sick child.— ' ( Hear, hear.) Water did not rush to its level sooner than did a disposition arise to purchase sugar in large districts upon a sud den reduction i f price. Thousands of tons of sugar were kept out of the country by this species of legislation. He could name many articles, the consumption of which had rapidly in creased upon a reduction of duty. One of these articles was coffee. It appeared from the statement of Mr. 11Iartineau that the moment the price fell to below 60s. the demand was un limited. An immense demand suddenly sprung up. He was not one who thought that there should be a complete equaliza tion of the duty between the colonial produce and foreign produce, but nothing could be more pernicious than a system of enor mous diffei ential ditties. It was proved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year that a reduction in the duty on sugar would produce to the revenue an income of 500,000/. There was one argument with respect to those duties which he was glad to find his Noble Friend had not made use of. It was an argument continually made use of in the other House, that however desirable it might be that the people should have cheap Lugar, still it could not be given to them while a state of slavery existed. He thought it did honour to his Noble Friend. But there were persons who recommended the people to starve, and the country to go without revenue, in the hope—resting on a weak foundation, a foundation their pi oceedings were calculated to take away—in the hope of the slaves being eman cipated in various States of South America. There was a sort of conscience which flitted over the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer so well trained, that it knew when to appear and when to disappear—when to show tself, and when to with draw itself.—( Laughter.) He supposed they would not re fine any more sugar for them. Oh no. They had refiners at home, and it was necessary that their interests should be pro • tested ; they did not mind refining a little sugar ; it was only when sugar came into the home consumption that they began to be discontented.—(Hear.) When he stated that he thought these were rather shallow pretences than solid arguments to induce foreign Governments to adopt a different policy from their present, he trusted they would not think that he was less impressed than any of their Lordships, with the horrors and abominations of slavery, and with the positive necessity for the abolition of so cruel and disgraoeful a practice. But it was the threats that he objected to. It must be by the moral example which they set to other nations, and by proofs of the efficacy of free labour, which they could afford, that they could ever hope to induce foreign nations to abolish the slave trade. He did, however, protest against any attempt to interfere with the in ternal arrangements of other countries, knowing, as he did, that such attempts were attended only with failure, and were calculated to induce resentment on the part cf the country in terfered with. It had lately come to light that a most barbarous and cruel system of labour had existed for some time _in the mining districts, with which their Lordships had hitherto been unacquainted. Why, what would their Lordships think if the French Ambassador here should suddenly rise up and say that that country would no longer continue its commercial ar rangements with us unless we consented never more to employ females or children in such a manner in cur mines? Why, whatever might be the feeling of their Lordships upon the im propriety of that kind of labour, they would most unquestionably think that such an interference was must presumptuous and uncalled for on the part of any other country.— ( Ilear, hear.) They should not, then, threaten other countrie3 to abandon their commercial treaties with th em ; but the y should set themsuch an example of the efficacy of free labour as would convince them of the benefit which' woul d arise to themselv es by adopting that course in preference to slave labour.— ( Hear, hear.) He he had stated sufficient reas ons to show that no time . a srhegoaurlddiugbe sugar Ile effectinginueshuuld briefly adv er t t o t h e ar ticle timber. His H o neurble Friend 'calculated last a change i n t h e l aws year that the reduction of the price of Norway timb er wou ld r dd so m e thing like 600,0001. to th e revenu e ; it wa s known that the price of Norway timber regul ated the p rice o f other timber, b and if ss. were taken off N orwa y timber, forei g n tim ber of a quality could be purch ased much chea p er th an at pre • sent, and the consumption, in consequence, would considerably increase. He must say that, having considered the measures proposed by the Government last yeast,. he firmly believed that people than they would produce a revenue of something like 1, 700,0001., and if a deficit to that amount could be made up by these measures, why should they have recourse to anag rieneoe:bemloee Income-tax h w e posed tax was always much more such a tax as an Income-tax hic A h se th i e f- t i a rfl x - - by a self-imposed tax, he meant one by which it rested with the people, whether they would pay it or not, by using or rejecting the articles on which the duty sum, calculated a upon the earnings of the individual, without the slightest g w a a i s h i e m re p r o c s e a t d i n a t o p t p h o e s i doorstion to gn a d tax demanded_ con sent of the party taxed. He ha d not brought forward this the present re solution with a view of oppo sin g Government— ( Hear, hear)—but he believed that other measures might be adopted which would at once b e more beneficial to agieculture and manufactures; aid, believing h t at, firmly as h e did, h e thought that he bad done nothi n g more.th an his d u ty i n pro posing the amendment which bad beenlaid upon the table of the House. —( Loud cheers.) On the question being put, Lord COLCHESTER rose to make a few remarks relative to the article of sugar. The Noble Marquis, with his usual re of the es , ) 1 eloquence, had described the desi P e to be able to oar which, he e t obtain an increased quantity of sa„ on the could not obtain unless the duty on foreign sugar were lowered. Ile (Lord Colchester) would beg to call the attention of the House to a Committee of that House which was appointed two years ago, open a petition from the East India Company, for the pur l ose of inquiry into the capabilities of. India for produ cing sugar. A great deal of evidence W s . taken before that :Committee, from which it appmed that a sufficient quantity of sugar could be obtained from those Islands to supply the whole of this country at the price which the Noble Marquis men tioned as a desirable one, sixty shillings ;.and if that were the case, he could see no reason for reducing the duty upon forcgn sugar. The late inadequacy of the supply in those islands had not arisen from the change from slave to free labour, but f , om the uncommon droughts which prevailed. Ile rr.ust dissent from the proposition of the Noble Marquis, be cause he thought that the revenue upon which the Noble Mar quis calculated would not be realized by his proposition, whilst our colonies would be considerably damaged if it were allowed to pass. Lord BROUGHAM thought that the business would be ex pedited if he rose early to express the opinions which he still entertained upon this subject. He agreed with the Noble Marquis in all his remat ks upon the inequality of the Income tsx, upon its too faithfully performing its office of extracting money from the pockets of the community, but unjustly, un equally, and oppressively ; and he agreed with the Noble Mar quis, above all, in the feelings to which he so eloquently gave vent upon the inquisitorial, necessarily inquisitorial, nature of such an impost. There was one quality of the tax, however, which the Noble Marquis omitted to consider, and which he owned, more than all the rest, gave him a repugnance to it, and that was its powerful nature for all purposes. Not that, like the elephant, its proboscis was was equal to picking up a needle, but that it was equal to tearing up a tree or destroying a rock. That was a weapon he would not put into the hands of any Government, as it was a resource carefully to be con fined to times of exigency. As an ordinary source of revenue, it was one that ought never to be entrusted to ail Government. His consent they never should have to raise by a stroke of the pen, any sum of money that the patience of the people would bear. They had had a sample of the consequences of introducing the Income-tax in 1616. In March ot that year they destroyed the Income-tax, and as it was in 1816 so it would be now. He entertained the same objection he had always felt to this tax ; but when :he question was between the discredit of the country, between a continuing deficit, }ear after year, in the revenue—when that ficit went on increasing from year to year, the Parliament was called upon, and positively bound, if it would not desert its duty to its country, to put an end to a state of things which had gone on from bad to worse. The question being how to meet a deficit—a growing deficit. which was, according to one calcula tion, upwards of 3,000,000/. and another, 2,soo,oool—such being the deficit to be met, the only question was whether his Noble Friend's plan or tine Income-tax was best to be adopted, it being admitted that the Income-tax would be 'the worst, if the other was possible. They had had from his Noble Friend a restatement of the plan of last year, with a slight alteration in the sugar duties. Now he could not help thinking, if his Noble Friends behind him had always entertained the same hostility to the Income-tax they did at the present moment, they wwuld have adopted a different course of dealing with re spect to it. When the Government brought it forward, they would have resisted it ; they would not have allowed one single instant to elapse from the moment the proposition was made, before they announced their hostility. liras such, however, the course taken by his Noble Friends ? Did they oppose it when it was first brought forward? Certainly not. It was intro duced on Friday, 11th of March, and a whole week was allowed to elapse before they could make up their minds to oppose it. When it was brought forward, a Noble Friend of his avowed that, as a whole, all parties must clearly admit it was a great plan, and worthy of the Ministers of a great country. That was all the resistance, opposition, and protest that was made against the plan. On Monday, the 14th, an opportunity was given to his Noble Friend of recalling the admission he had 'bade on Friday, but that opportunity was not embraced, and even on Thursday, when the debate was brought forward, his Nehle Friends had not made up their minds upon the subject of the Income-tax. Even after a meeting had taken place in the ssity, complaining of the injustice of the tax on terminable an nuities, they did not make up their minds; and it was not till .he next week it was deteimined to oppose the mea sure in the House of Commons ; and has Noble Friend now opposed it candidly, certainly, but faintly. Again, this was to be taken into account, that when grain s €l, as the ports would be open, and the B s. du t y w o u ld be ob tained. But in that very year there would be a deficit of Ex eife, which would have to be set off against all the gain from the fixed duty ; so that upon the balance it would give actually no revenue at all. Last of all came the objection which was the most important and weighty—that it was a tax upon food, a bread-tax, which Parliament had no right whatever to levy. —(Hear.) Still he preferred any fixed duty to a sliding scale— as much superior to the present slidings tale as the latter was to the former one. The Government of last year (according to the declaration of a Noble Friend of his, not made in that House, nor in the other, but elsewhere) brought forward the proposition of the Bs. duty neither as a measure of finance, nor as a measure of relief, but because they were urged by the importunities of their friends and goaded by the taunts of their adversaries. Coming next to the sugar duties, the same per eentage of differential duty was maintained. But he felt it his duty to protest against the doctrines laid down on this subject by his Noble Friend behind him (the Marquis of Lansdowne). If his Noble Friend would favour him with his attention, he would endeavour to show him that the reduction of the duty would not be compatible with a desire to discourage the slave trade. It was not to protect the planters be desired, but to protect the Africans in Africa against the slave-trade. What was the ease ? Our own colonies produced too little sugar. What were the means—the easy means, by which his Noble Friend proposed to raise a revenue? By taking off 4s. from the duty upon the foreign production, so much revenue, I amounting to 750,000/. yielded by the colonial sugar, must be abandoned ; and to gain the 800,0001. of revenue wanted, and expected to be derived from this tax, 1,500,0001. must be raised upon sugar from Cuba and Brazil. This proposed sub stitute for the Income-tax—this positive and certain means of supplying the deficit in the revenue—must be raised by import ing Ii)0,000 hogsheads of Cuba or Brazilian sugar. It was mighty wed to talk of all the good that would be done to the population of our own country—of their comforts, their in creased trade and wealth. But what did it mean but that some 20,000 or 40,000 unhappy Africans should be torn from their homes, carried through all the horrors of the m'cltile passage, to raise, in the West Indies, the sugar which was to give that duty?—( Hear, hear.) He agreed with his No ble Friend that sugar was no 4 the only article of slave-labour production. But the tria things passing by the same name, were as different as two things similarly named could be. There was no possible cpmparison, except in the name, between the employment of slive,labour in cotton and in sugar plantations. The slave trade kas not to be regarded as an institution of Brazil or Cuba—it was an institution of no country. Tie Legislature of this ceuntry, of all others, owed it no respect.—(Hear, hear.) But the whole propo sition of his Noble Friend went directly to encourage, to foster, and, if possible, to perpetuate it.—( Hear, hear.) He held it to be plainly demonstrated that the instant they lowered their duties en the sugars of Spanish colonies and- the Brazilian empire, 40,000 or 50,000 negroes would be taken from Africa to the horrors of the Vest Indies. This view of the case re. conciled him in some degree to the Income-tax. He woel4 now, however, state seine of the objections which he enter tained to this measure. Knowing the impossibility of making any material alterations in the Bill as it stood, he would not urge his of at any great length. lie would first suggest to the House that the course which common fairness towards that House would have seemed to dictate was to divide the Bill into two parts. If their Lordships would give their careful attention to the details of the BM, they would Fee that there were defects in it which the warmest friend of the measure must desire to see remedied ; but there were some facts relating to the levying of the tax itself, which he was perfectly certain must be altered as soon as their errors were made manifest. He now referred to that part of the Bill which related to the appointment of the Commissioners. The way in which this was arranged appeared to him to be altogether unintelligible. The Land-tax Commissioners were to meet and to set down in writing the names of such Com missioners as should be appointed under the Act. Then came a provision " that any seven, or any seven of the whole num ber, and not less than seven, or any less number than seven, riot being in any case not less than three of the persons so set down, and in the order in which they shall be, or set down in such list, shall be Commissioners for the general purposes of this Act." Now observe, if the Act required him to take upon him the execution of this Act, he was liable to process to compel the execution ; but how was he to know whether he was to take upon himself the execution of the Act? How was he to be indicted and by whom? He could not tell, nor could any one else, whether he was one of the seven. Then it was provided that in ease there should be a sufficient number of Com missioners chosen or appointed for general purposes, and so on, and it was not said by whom they were to be chosen. Now, with respect to courts of justice it was provided by the 30th clause that the Lord High Chancellor, the Chief Justice, and the principal officer or officers of each Court, should respec tively have authority to appoint Commissioners. There was nothing to show what was meant by the term ":principal officers." By the 191st clause which was the quorum clause, " only two Commissioners" were enabled to execute every power of the Act. Now, observe the consequence. If he put in a claim for exemption, two Commissioners might refuse to grant it, but he might go to the other two, and those two might sign a certificate which was binding upon the Commissioners for special purposes. Therefore ary two Commissioners might give him the exemption, and the special Commissioners had no option, any . more than the Receiver-General. By the 44th clause persons in the situation of trustees, agents, guardians of infants, and committees of lunatics, were entitled to deduct from the incomes of those parties coming into their hands whatever sums they had been assessed with. But then came the 61st and the 165th clause, by which if a person should not have been so assessed as to enable him to deduct, he was to be entitled to be repaid the money which he had advanced. Vut there was no provision to prevent the party from applying the money repaid to his own use. The 166th section was very remarkable. It was there provided, that whoever should be guilty of any fiaud, or whoever should fraudulently conceal or —not " and"—or untruly declare any income—not falsely or merely, but untruly, in optima fide—should be fined 20/., and treble the duty charged. That referred to the principal. What was to be the line inflicted upon an accessory ? They would naturally say less. But no—the principal being fined 20/. and • treble the duty, the accessory was to be fined no less than 501. The parties appointed under this Act had most important func tions to perform, they were judicial functions, and quasi judi cial funct ons. He could not help thinking, that it would have been better to have divided the Bill into two parts, one relating to the portion of the Bill to which he had alluded, and the other to the money part of the Bill. They might then have made alterations mist uselul to the measure, and creditable to the Legislature. The same observations seemed to him to apply to the only ether matter which he should call their Lord ships' attention to—viz., that part of the Bill relating to the examination of witnesses. There was the schedule F contain irg five forms of oaths, to be taken by various functionaries and officers employed; new, there had been unquestionably great improvements made in Bills which had passed through their Lordships' House ; that of reducing the number of oaths as far as possible, and substituting declarations for oaths alone, could be effectually and useftelv done. Ile had no mania rof ch.uld that one of the best changes they could have made in this 13111, would have been to have subotituted declarations in the place of oaths. So, also, with respect to the exa mination of persons under the 124th section. He had no manner of doubt, if the suggestion he had formerly made of di viding the Bill had been acted on, that their Lordships would readily have leant to the proposition of altering those provisions to which he had alluded. He particularly alluded to section 125. It was lawful to the Commissioners to exa mine any persons whom they thought likely to be able to give evidence re-pecting the asses-ments made on any other person —neighbours, friends, relatives, all but with one exception, viz., agents. Persons confidentially entrusted might be called up n and examined with respect to the income, and circumstances, and the expenditure the whole mode if living. The Commissioners might examine any per son but the agent. It might be said that a person might escape from this examination by payment of 20/. But many persons could not afford to pay that, and he was sorry to say that there would be persons ever ready to give evidenc , to the Commissioners. But solicitors might. be examined as to the amount they had paid to counsel. Correspondents could be examined as to all that passed between them and their met-. chants. Consignees of merchants in the same way. Trades -1 men as to the affairs of their customers, when they paid their last account, a d what was the amount, and what money was due. There could, therefore, be no confidential trust between tl.e customer and the tradesman. Bankers cculd be called to give evidence will respect to their customers, and what the ba lance was in their hands. Father could be brought against the son, and the son against the father; brother against the sis'er, &c. Having said so much, he thought their Lordships, from the necessity of the case , must accept the measure. Ile need not attempt to prevail on their Lordships to do that which would be hopeless—even if he did not feel the necessity of that measare—to reject the measure, except he did so again to re ' . mind them of the consequences of that rule being so erro. neously adhered to which excluded their Lordships from a re vision or correction of those most important Acts which came up fiem the other House of Parliament. They had the power by the constitution of that House, by the manner in which the business was transacted, by the manner in which that House was composed, having within its walls not only statesmen who had adorned this country—men of their professions, if he could cab statesmen professional—but the sages of law, as 'well as the statesmen, judges, these who presided in the tribunals of the country, who were best versed in its laws, the House itself being the highest judicial body, as well as a great branch of the Legislature—they had the power and the capacity to alter arrangements, principles, and details, such as the arrangements and det;•ils of this Bill, as accurately, as s'ringently, as usefully, as fruitfully as the other House. He had no manner of doubt but that if the treasure had been framed as he had recommended, he had no hesitation in saying he would not say tkey would have made the measure better, but they would have rendered it more palatable. This Bill, in its pre sent realm -the immense mass on the table, from which his Noble Friend almost shrank, was hideous in its aspect, the arrangements were odious— " Monstrum, horrendum, monstrum infernum, cui lumen in gens ademptum."—(Loud laughter. ) Had they been allowed to make those alterations he had re commended, the measure would hare been more palatable. It would have been relieved from some of its worst defects. He had deemed it his duty, as a Member of that House, to take the course he had done, and to attack the point of privilege claimed by the other House. Lord MELBOURNE said that he fully agreed with the first pact of the Noble and Learned Lord's speech, wherein he said that this was a question of paramount importance. It was a question of very great importance ;it u - as, in his opinion, a question of greater importance than any which had been sub nutted to their Lordships for many years. This was a question which involved not only an immense difficulty, but it involved the safety, the strength, the future power and security of this country. He must say that it was the greatest question since the great question of Reform in the representation in Parlia ment. phis was a question not involving party feeling, and ought to be considered only with respect to the well-being of this great community. He should therefore take leave to consider the question, and trusted it would not be at too great a length, but he should trespass upon their Lordships to consider this question in a general point of view. He thought his Noble and Learned Friend found himself in an awkward position.—(Laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord had altered his position since 1816, as he was then its most active opponent ; he then covered the measure with in vective, and now he came forward in another character as the supporter of the measure. This seemed to place him in seine difficulty, and his situation seemed most inconsistent. Cn the former occasion he -heaped his invective upon it, but he gave it his opposition, he now came forward with all his in vective, but he gave the Bill his support. He (Lord Mel bourne) could not help thinking that this was something like inconsistency.—( Hear, hoar.) His speech and his act were different on that occasion, he denounced the measure as hor - resident nostrum—(Laughter)—and he, therefore, could not think he was consistent in giving it his support. He (Lord Melbourne) had the misfortune not entirely to agree with the Noble and Learned Lord. He could not agree with the Noble Lord in supposing that benefits would arise from this measure. Nor did he see the necessity which made this measure neces sary. The Noble and Learned Lord said that this was a tax rendered necessary by war. 'l'he Noble and Learned Lord had stated, and he (Lord Melbourne) entirely agreed with him, that this was a tax only to be imposed in time of very great emergency. This applied to any tax. 'I here ought not to be a duty im?osed upon any article, of consumption, or any other tax whatever, that pressed on the community at large, unless there was an absolute necessity for the imposition. Calamities we re predueed in the time of peace. The greatest calamity which had befallen France, the revolution, was produced in a time of peace at the time of the greatest triumphs which had greatly humiliated this country. Calamities were just as likely to befal nations in a time of peace as war.—(Hear, hear. ) It had been said that the present Prime Minister did not de ceive the people, but he stood by and allowed the people to de ceive themselves. He (Lord Melbourne) did not say that that was true, but he thought it was very well expressed, most capi tally expressed.—( Laughter.) He did not know that it was altogether unjustifiable to do so, but he thought it was taking a very great advantage.—(Great laughter.) He thought this tax was a measure which would be productive of a great deal of good ; he admitted its inequality, but at the same time he thought that the principal objection to it was its equality.— ( Great laughter.) It was impossible to deny that it was of an inquisitorial character, and that having to make a statement of their pecuniary affairs was a great aggravation of the sufferings of the people; at the same time he must say that a strong ob jection to this tax was the political feeling that raged so high. He only hopeil that the Commissions would not be at all influ enced in their conduct by such feelings.—(Hear.) Another great objection to this tax was hat it would tend to drive ca pital out of the country, but the same objection applied to every tax which was calculated to raise a great revenue. Other ob jections had been raised. His Noble Friend said that it would produce too much revenue—that it would go beyond the time—but that was very easily remedied. Other taxes could be reduced, which would restore things to their equilibrium.—( Hear, hear.) It had been stated that Govern ment would be extravagant, and the year 1816 had been in stanced as an example which would be followed. He must say tis: t s did not see any great danger on that score. He feared I ex: wvagance, but it was .the extravagance of the fancies of Members of Parliament, and not of the Treasury benches, who would be economical enough if they let them alone. He must say that he did not feel generally the objections to this tax so wrongly as they were felt by other persons, but he did not think it a prudent or wise measure in the present state of the c untry. Ile was well aware that the management of the finances of the country during the Premiership of his Noble Fr; end, Earl Grey, was not according to strict princij le. They always trusted too much to the surplus, and did not sufficiently tax the country. But there were cases in which a departure from principle was the right principle. Ile thought, then, that the country could not bear such a measure as this ; that it was better not to go on always forcing, forcing, and so he thought now. He had no objection whatever to raising a revenue upon the importation of foieign corn, and the revenue which might be raised from that source would be, in his opinion, of a more certain character than Noble Lords opposite seemed to think. Because the supply and prices fluctuated, and they could not calculate exactly upon the amount of revenue, be did not see why they should not raise as much revenue as they - could on that article from a fair and moderate duty.—(llear, hear.) It did not seem to have been denied, that a revenue could be raised .from sugar, ard he (Lord Melbourne) did say, considering the stringent nature of this measure, and the prejudices _which prevailed against it, that it was not,wise and prudent to try it till they had first tried every other measure.—( Ilear, hear.) He did not think the case suffieiently urgent to justify such a measure ; and he thought they were throwing away what might by and by be very useful to them. He should say, as Solon said— (Laughter)—when he was asked whether he had given the Athenians the best possible laws. He said, " No; but khave given them the best they can bear ;" and he thought that that saying would apply to his propositions, when he held the high office of Premier. He submitted these measures to the court- I try, and he said that the country refused them; but Noble Lords opposite said, " No ; they did not object to your mea sures, they did not object to your principles, but they objected to yon."—(A laugh.) That had been said a thousand times, but he could not admit it.—(Laughter.) But it was perfectly competent for Noble Lords opposite, who contended that it was not the measures that had been rejected by the country, to propose them again. He could not do so, but they might ; and he thought it would have been a better course to have adopted, than the one' which had been adopted. Noble Lords opposite should, however, recollect that having once entered upon this course they could not re tract, they must follow it up—once entered upon that course, to recede would be dishonour and ruin. He said this because he wished to guard himself. 14 should vote against the present measure, but he wished to be distinctly understood that if this course should be adopted, he should reserve to himself the full right of supporting her Majesty's present Government, or any future Government which might happen to be in office at the time, which should propose to continue this measure, or to carry it out even to a greater extent.—(Hear, hear. ) The Duke of WELLINGTON said, whether the country in deciding against these measures decided against the measures or against the men who made them, he did not know. He sup. ported this measure upon his own views ; but those measures to which the Noble Viszount had referred he thought should not have been proposed, and ought not to be adopted. He agreed with the Noble Lord that this measure was totally different from that of 1816. He considered that it was one absolutely neces sary to enable Parliament to meet the deficiency in the revenue, and the exigencies of the country. The Noble Via-• count thought that a duty should have been laid upon corn, sugar, and timber ; but he said little in reply to the arguments of the inadequacy of the duty upon corn. They wanted a cer tain revenue—( Hear, hear)--all they wanted was certainty.— ( Ilear. ) It -was quite possible that in scare seasons no corn might be imported, and in other seasons very laige quantities might be imported, and in neither case could the revenue he depended upon. Now, with reference to the duty upon sugar. The Noble Lord opposite had objected upon financial grounds to any alteration in the duty upon foreign sugar. He (Duke of Wellington) had taken a very simple view of the case, which was this : This Go vernment had enterectinto treaties with the _Spanish Govern ment and other Powers for putting an end to the slave trade. Those treaties had not been strictly carried into execution, and they knew that large quantities of slaves were exported from Africa up to this moment; and he did think, that when ever this country made such a concession as to lower the duties on foreign sugars, it would be adding a premium to slavery. He thought these duties ought not to be lowered, without some security for putting an end to the slave trade ; particularly, as he believed, the full demand of this kingdom might be sup plied from their own possessions in the tropics. Under these circumstances, he thought they ought to consider maturely be fore they lowered the duties on foreign sugar. Considerincr that the increased per centage on the asses - ed taxes had failed,' and the Excise duties being deficient, he thought no other course thEn that of the Government could have been adopted. But if the revenue raised by this tax should be more than was necessary, there could be no reason why the surplus should not be applied to the remis sion of taxes that should benefit the commerce of the country. This was the purpose to which it was intended to apply the overplus. The tax must be maintained as long as it might be necessary. He hoped the Government would so maintain it, but not one hour longer than it should be so re quited.—( Hear, hear.) But if these new duties should be come productive, then they would be able to repeal this tax, from the increase of revenue consequent upon the revival of commerce. By former measures an attempt was made to supply the deficiency of the revenue, but the promise of those measures had remained unfulfilled to this day. He had already stated that the Government would maintain this tax as long as it might be necessary, and he would declare for himself, and he believed for his colleagues, that from nothing but necessity should they impose it. He was aware of the nature of the tax, and of the objectionable powers it imposed ; and the public too, he believed were aware of its necessity. They had for some years been engaged in a series of operations which, it they were not war, were as much like it as could well be, and they were now called oh to pay the bills, to the amount of ten millions sterling. The deficiency of the Government for this year was more than two millions, but he trusted that this tax would supply the deficiency in a manner that should also conduce to the prosperity of the nation. Nothing but necessity could have induced them to impose the tax, and he would repeat that nothing but necessity would lead them to continue it. The Earl of WICKLOW rose amid loud cries of question. Considering the nature of the measure, and that only four Noble Lords had had an opportunityof giving their opinion upon it, he thought their Lordships might carry on the debate beyond a quarter past eleven.—( Hear, hear.) He was perfectly ready to accede to an adjournment.—(No, no.) It appeared that this was a tax that was necessary, but that should not have been imposed could a substitute have been found for it. But from the admissions of Members of the late Government, and the fact of the period of the session at which their measures were brought forward, he came to the conclusion that this tax was an indispensable one. It was the only one that could touch that large portion of the wealthy of this country who sought the pleasures or the conveniences of ofa fo reign residence ;_ all other taxes this class 2 . ~ per sons could evade. He regretted that h e r er lreland. l j e n I Y I e s Government had not extended its provisions t9_ n for paying regretted this, not from any partteular be passion that Ire taxes, but because he thought it was to at p a ro ll v i i :be si r o s n o s ns w w e h r o e I p n i n r e d . should They not mu s b t e arnohrer take pothertßioinuoftetheirtbtiude,nsanodf thheeez-s p anxious pi y to o to a yn m il e: f t o h ti o n_ w d its th resided six months of the year in England, or Members of Par • learn efor°urintrtyheatGalovl i liament who resided here during the session of Parliamekt , and for forty days before and forty days after, were exempted. IY II, how did this act with regard to Irish proprietors resida."'g abroad ? Why, it was a bonus to them to reside abroad. The Irish tunas not being taxed, and yet being part and parcd of the funds of thiikountry, an English fundholder cou'd evade, the tax by transferring into the Irish funds. On the other band, cases might arise in which an Irish fundholder residing in this country might be obliged to pay double. He, therefore regretted that the tax had not been directly extended to Ireland. He bel eyed that a large portion of the wealth of Ireland was spent in this country and Ireland would not get credit for her real share in the contribution. The Earl of CLARENDON would occupy the House but a very short time ; yet there had been some charges against the late Government, which he hoped the House would allow him to remark upon briefly. He was glad to observe that the embarrassed state of the finances was not attributed to the mis management of the late Government. The scheme of the late Government was to increase consumption, and thereby to aug ment the revenue. Their first measure respected corn, and he was glad to see that the rrescnt Government commenced th. ir scheme with the same item.—( Cheers.) With respect to sugar, the estimates of the late Government were never disputed. The Budget' of his Right Honourable Friend was nor, therefore, the contemptible thing that it had been de scribed. It was not conceived with recklcsness, nor brought forward without an intention of earning it into effect. There was no more doubt then than in March, 1842, that the system of protection by which our country was so long oppressed must be broken down. He was glad that the present Government had come into power.—( Cheers.) He was glad, because no measures of general utility could have been carried by the late Goverment in the face of an opposition which now supported the same measures, and asserted upon the hustings, and in the other ticuses of Parliament, that they voted, as the supporters of the Noble Duke opposite voted in 1829, against tie ir coesciences, to keep their party in power. It appeared to him that the scheme of the Government was one which would drive industry into unnatural channels, end thrive it from those in which it hal formerly flowed. He was convinced that the new Corn-laws would afford no benefit to the country ; whilst by the new tariff most of the articles of general consumption were left untouched. It was impossible to regard the tariff as a compensation for the Income-tax. The necessity for this measure might easily have been obviated by acceding to the alteration in the sugar duties, which was pro posed by the late Government. The policy of this country on the subject of the slave trade was carefully watched by every country in Europe ; they were watching eagerly for the financial, caring little for the phi lanthropic results of it ; and if they found that we de rived no pecuniary advantage, they would have little induce ment to emancipate their slaves.—( Hear, hear.) The only plan of putting an effectual stop to slavery, was to show that sugar and other articles could be produced cheaper by free la hour than slave labour. If they proved to the world that their experiment had failed, they would give a greater impetus than had ever been given before to slavery and the slave trade. In conclusion, he would ask the House whether it was proper, having refused to relieve the country, by means of an altera tion in the sugar duties, to impose upon the people a tax of so inquisitorial a character as that under consideration Lord Fitzgerald, Lord Melbourne, Lord Brougham, and the Earl of Clarendon explained, Lord WHARNCLIFFE raid he had thought, up to the time when the Noble Earl (the Earl of Clarendon) had risen, he had never heard a debate conducted with so little party seirio The Noble Farl stated that they had adopted the mea sures of the late Government. He denied that such was the case. Wiser, the budget was proposed last year, they did not deny that it would be a benefit to relieve commerce from its re strictions ; but they stated that those who brought forward the a easures of relief were not fit persons to carry them into exe ctrion. Why ? Because they had lost the confidence of both Houses ; because they were occasionally in a minority ; because they had thrown themselves on the support of individuals who declared that. they were squeezable.—( Hear, hear.) In his opinion there could not be a worse Government than r.e which did not possess the confidence of the country —( Hear. The mode of proceeding by Noble Lords opposite was to make experiments. sugar was one, corn was another, and timber was a third. What the present Government said was, The country has a debt to pay—it has a deficiency to make up ; be , fore you try experiments make up that deficiency. In the case in which they were placed, the Income-tax was the most suited to the emergency. They were satisfied that the ptopositions of the late Government were entirely failures. With respect to corn, which had been al luded to by the Noble Marquis; the Noble Marquis said they could have tamed 500,0001. lie ( Lord Wharncliffe) did net doubt this; he might have made 1,100,0001.; but then this was of all taxes the least to be depended upon. It wholly de- Wpended on the seasons and the weather. Now with respect to sugar, 'What they said with respect to slavery was, that if, an the pre sent state of slavery they imported a large quantity of sugar from foreign countries, they gave a great encouragement to slaetry. 'they must re collect that there were other places hick produced sugar Lesides the West Indies ; there was the sugar from the East Indies, which was not slave-grown. He fully believed that the treasures they had proposed were calcu lated to benefit the country at large; and finding the state of the country was as they found it, they would have been blame able indeed if they had not brought them forward. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought there had been great waste of time by the party on the opposite side. Ho would not go into the question of the Income-tax then, es there would be another opportunity of doing so. Lord LYTTEL'I ON could not bring himself to oppose this tax, on the ground that it was adequate to meet the deficiency, wiihout pressing on the working classes. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, said, that as he had been accused of being an uncompromising opponent to the Income-tax. he begged to say that he did not think there were any circumstances justifying an Income-tax. There were such circumstances, but they did not consist in a deficiency of 3,500,0004 He had never said that slavery ought not to be a constant subject of solicitude ; what he had said was, that, on the subject of the sugar trade negotiations for the suppression of slavery were contracts on paper, anal as such were waste paper, and would obtain nothing for the unhappy people on the coasts of Africa. The Earl of RIPON explained. He bad stated that the whole of the plan was erroneous, and justified him in calling upon the House to testify their want of confidence in the Go vernment. ..... Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided un the amendment, when there appeared— Contents 52 Non-Contents Majority against the amendment. . 60 On our entrance into the gallery the Marquis of CLANRI. CA RDE was on his legs, and moved the adjournment of the debate till; Tuesdry, amidst loud cries of " Go on, go on," arid Question, question." Lord KINNAIRD said that he understood the Noble Duke to say that there should he a sepal ate debate on the third read ing.—(" No, no." from the Duke , f Wellington.) The Duke of WELLINGTON said he could not govern the debates a the house. What he said wa, that the Noble Lord might c:cli:er his sentiments, but he did not say that a. debate was to take }}place. The Earl of RADNOR did not understand the Noble Duke to say that there should be a debate on the third reading. The Duke of WELLINGTON had certainly explained him self clearly on the poi t, though he might have been misunder stood by the Noble Lord. The Alirquis of CLANRICARDE said if his motion were resisted he should certainly take the sense of the House upon the subject. This Rill had been hurried through the House in a most unyrecedented manner ; the discussion had been taken upon the merits of the financial measures of the Govmriment generally compared with those of the late Ministry, and as they could not discuss the third wad ing of the Bill at that late hour, he should, for the sake of de ' cern', press for a division upon his motion. The Duke of WELLINGTON contended that clear and sufficient notice had been given of the third reading. The Earl of BADN( /It supported the adjournment. The Marquis of LONDONDERR Y could not see any rea son for such anxiety for deferring the thirst reading. The Earl of RIPON said that the object had been already discussed at great length ; and he did not see why the Bill should not be read a third time that evening. The Earl of WICKLOW hoped that the Noble Duke would accede to the proposal ;or an adjournment of the discussion. There were, it appeared, many Noble Lords who were stia anxious to address the House on the subject; and under those circumstances he did riot wish that the debate should be at once brought to a conclusion. Viscount MELBOURNE would remind their Lordships that a majority, however powerful, was cot omnipotent on a question of adjournment. He had often been made aware of that by his experience in another place. The Duke of WELLINGTON said he was in the hands of the House ; but he could see no reason why they should net immediately come to a decision in conformity with the under standing which had been come to on a former occasion. The Duke of NEWCASTLE raid he would take every op. port unity of voting against the Bill. The question having then been lee that the debate should be adjourned until Tuesday next, the House divided. The num bei s sec re for the adjournment : lc. tent..... Proxies N 4 c n'ent Proxies. 9l-186 Mcjority f —l3l On tur return to the gallery we found Lord DENMAN stating that he should vote against the Bill on every stage, and objecting to the House preeeeding with the Bill at that hour. ' •lhe Duke cf WELLINGTON said it would be very incon venient if the Bill did not pass that night. The motion had been postponed from Thursday to Friday to suit the conveni ence of Noble Lords, and he trusted the 13ill would be passed. Lord RADNOR suggested that if the Bill were proceeded with, either then or on Monday, no inconvenience would arise. The Duke of WELLING"! ON said he was not in the habit. of stating what he did not believe to be true. .He repeated that great inconvenience would rt-suit if the Bill did not pass that night. The Marquis of CLAN RICARDE said he thought it was too much to ask the House to pats the Bill at that hour. Lord CAMPBELL said in the other House it was a mat ter of course to adjourn the debate upon the statement that there were several lion. Members who wished to deliver their sentiments, and he did not see why there should be one :rule in that a lembly and another rule in the other. He thought that to force on the third reading of the Bill without giv ing an opportunity of further discussion, would not tend to raise the character of that House. Lord FITZGERALD considered that the principle of the Bill had that evening been fully discussed. He would leave it to the imblie to decide whether the debate of to-night hail not been substantially on the merits of the Bill. To whom was the lateness of the hour to be imputed—to whom vc,;s the loss of time to be attributed? Had no time been lost by the motion for adjournment—had no time been lost by the call for proxies on the motion ? He protested against the as sertion that the Bill had been improperly forced forward. It had been postponed this night selnnight, out of courtesy to a Noble Marquis. He would leave it fur their Lordships to de eiir e if this motion for adjournment was calculated to add to the dignity of the House in the eyes of the co unt ry . The Earl of RADNOR did not impute it as a fault to any body that the Bill had been repeatedly put off. The postpone ments had been occasioned by the illness of his Noble Friend and of the Noble Earl opposite. The debate on the amend ment of the Noble Marquis had lasted until one o'clock in the morning. They had had no discussion on the principle of the Bill, and he would as k if it was decorous that they should enter upon that discussi on explained. at half-past two o clock in the morni ng ? The Duke of WELLINGTON, Lord CAMPBE LL did not im p ute any blame to any perm for what had occurred, but he t houglit that if it were now e l at l e et eighted that o'clock idivision the morning, o n Ruf , forced on at this hour, blame certainl y w ould be imputable to thoseloorrm Lord who j f i chr h c Ea e is d i D i t t aAk fo Le r nE o w i a l r ra d ece . ,: wheiit so that they 11:1,1 five hours good yet for debating. lord WII A lINCLIFFE said it was very necessary g to past this Bill at once, as there were arrangements entered into at the Bank for the 14th of July. The question ii iqie o st u ie ,e n d Chit the debatehebenuamb djoeurrsnewderweasfortisreenadpiuntg, and the Bill a third ts Tuesday— Proxies 11— 36 Not conte n t Prosier Majority. ..,....123 On our return to the gallery, 82-159 The Earl of RADNOR was on his legs, and moved the ad. jourment of the House. a rid se wi its till., sy ,va tb° .1 0 the iislif ice" . 90