The Sun. — London, England, 1842-04-15 00:00:00

,~P•IRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS. PROM THE EVENING PAPERS OF YESTERDAY. - - - - GLOBE.—Ministers have got the* income tax majority—much good may it do them. Our readers will remember (we may at least be allowed to put. them in mind) that, on the f est introduction of the Peel Budget, we admitted the Opposition were, in II great measure, disabled from resisting the pro ject effectually by the defectiveness of thel Whig Budget in providing for the immediate finan cial exigency. The practical demands of the day are what are first. looked to by the English public—and the late Ministers expiated their short comings of those. demands by the failure "of effective support from tlae most active and influential classes. The present TN, nisters, as it appears to us, have risked discredit 'With those classes by the opposite course of exaggFr.ating the demands of the present crisis, and throw] n the burthen of making them good too heavily Oil the, middle and mercantile classes. The Whig fault was a, fault of weakness ; the Tory fault is a fault of dam-strength. If the late Mhiatry are to he blamed, it is for not having thrown 'the reins of Government sooner to those who now hold them : but to their last acts, it -oust be remei nhered, we owe the first acts of the present, so far, as those are of Liberal tendency. What the pi:esent Government have exclusively to themselves is the responsibility of the income tax. We are much mistaken if this responsibility will prove a light :matter. Is it supposed that, in its pre t shape, m. ch a tax can be permanent ? Th e inten tion is discbii med on the part of its authors. We are not to have a , permanent income tax. So they tell us ; and whateve: they may mean, the public will hold them to thei r word. But, on the strength of their income tax, they are actually preparing to part gratuitously with 1,200,000/. of revenue from a pro ductive and unobnoxious impost l They are doing this in thee face of an annual deficit, only filled un by an incce ne tax ! We desire to know how, as matter of principle, their conduct differs in this re spect from t bat of their predecessors, whom they charge so vehemently with relinquishing 1,500,0001. from the Post-ofi ice? Is it the 300,0001. that makes the difference between prudence and imprudence ? It will be replied that our finances may , be expected to have improry ed five years hence. The same plea may be urg d for the probable increase of the post age, and other revenues. All that is clear at present is, that Ministers, with the warning example before ther a--for as such they choose to parade it—of their Whit ; predecessors, with the ruinous effects of their cond tact, as they choose to assert, staring us in the face, it a itate that example in the very first steps of their cow se, abandon a tax, the abandonment of which wa s not even asked for by the public, and do this at a moment when the accumulated dangers of deficiency have forced them, as they say, on an im post so odious that they dare not proclaim it' perma nent—so odious, we add, that the public will take good care that they shall not make it so ! STAND. ARD.—The adjourned debate upon the income tax - terminated last night in the adoption of the measure by a decisive majority—a majority of one hundred and six, in a House of 51.5 Members. The numbers were—for bringing up the Report, 308; against it, 2:02. It is thus that the representatives of the people Eh! England proclaim to Europe, and to the world, their determination to maintain the honour and interests of their country, at whatever sacrifice may be necessary. We have 'lately heard much of the confession of weakness involved in resorting to an income tax. We are willing to trust to the judgment, of the world for the decision, whe ther to. go on year after year, nursing defi cieneks after deficiencies into cumbrous debts, or getting rid of deficiency and debt by a bold, ener getic, and generous sacrifice, is the greater proof of f,veakness. The most intelligent of the, foreign jor.rnals has already given its decision on the matter. "lhe late news from India," says the .journal des Debats, " was received in England with a profound feeling of pain ; but likewise with remarkable dig nity. * 1 41 * The eminently practical and positive spirit of the English has postponed all other conside rations to a future period. They are occupied in esti mating the real injury sustained, in taking measures to repair it, and acting with all the energy the gravity of circumstances requires." This is a true picture of what is nowpassing in this country, and a very faith ful indication of the character and temper of the British nation ; our great poet has described them with inimitable precision and force : " Beware Of entrance into a quarrel, but being in Bear it, that the opposer may beware of thee." This is the nationalTharacter, and to a nation or to an individual such a character is the highest claim of respect and good-will, the safest guarantee. against wrong or insult. It is not by the amount of the resources of the wealthiest people in the world that the safety of danger of provoking a quarrel with that people is to he measured, Init by the greater oiless prompti tti&- with which they will use those means their pos session of Which can be doubtful tu•nO one. In this ' light we cannot but regard. the Ministerial victory Of last light as of the highest political importance—as the: cheap and bloodleSs equivalent .of, many military triumphs. .10.uw.:14 - • ELECTION COMMITTEES. Ipswich. (Continued froth our Afternoon Edition.) The question basing been objected to, the Committee de eided, af'er considerable: discussion, that the witness might be asked, whether there was a report in the borough that bribery had been practised by both parties. The witness stated that there had been a report to that effect. James Adams was next examined—Witness stated that he hard Mr. Wason say. in a speech which he had made at the Bell Tavern, that. there was a report that he would not come down to Ipswich again, and that he had got no money ; " but," said Mr. Wason, Rigby Wason has come again, and has money; and neither 1.0001. 2,000/. or 3,000!. expense will stop him." Mr. Wason used to visit thehouses at which his friends were in the habit of a , seunbling. Witness had seen Mr. Wason and Mr. Rennie together at the warehouse, near the market place. - The ero‘s-examination of the witness was commenced, but had not concluded at the rio!ng of the Committee. LONG FORD. I=l DAY. The Committee met yesterday at eleven o'clock, and pro ceeded to the examination of the qualification of John Dogherty. Henry Johnson was called and examined as to a qualifica tion, and deposed that, it was of the value of 11. 6s. 6d. per acre, per annum, a value which would not amount to a quali fication. An argument on the iWerpretation of the worth " clear yearly value," ensued, which continued till four o'clock, when the Committee adjourned; Mr. Robinson resumes his argu ments to-morrow. LLOYD'S SHIPPING. EAST INDIA SHIPPING. Arrivals—Her Majesty's ship Wizard, Somerville, from the Cape of Good Hope, at Plymouth, sailed Feb. Ist, St. Helena, 13th ; Barbara, from Mauritius, off Crookhaven, sailed Dec. 13. Arrivals at St. lielena—Ons Genonen, Feb. 10, from Ba tavia to Amsterdam ; Russell, 11th, fvom Manilla, and sailed 12th to Boston ; Batavia, Pronk, I 1 th, from Batavia, and sailed 13th to Rotterdam ;;Gezins, Abdoll Aerdt Van Nes, Bodeman, and Stad Schiedam de Boer, 11th, all from Ba tavia, and sailed 12th to Amsterdam ; Fortarshire, M'Carthy, from China and Singapore, sailed 13th to London ; Mary, Severance, from whaling to New Bedford ; Otterspool, Little, 12th, from Calcutta to Cork ; Seymour, Davies, 12th, from Calcutta, and sailed 12th to London ; Minstrel; Burton, 13th, from Manilla to London ; Unioa barque, 13th, passed for —. Departures from St. Helena—City of London, Martin, Feb. 10th, to London; Olga, 11th, to Hamburgh; Mary, Robertson, to Cork; Countess of Dunmore, Snowden, to Amsterdam ; Pondicherry, to Bordeaux ; Sarah, Heidrick, and Trusty, Els don, 12th, to London. _ • Admiralty, April 12, 1842. Slll,—l am commanded by my Lords' commissioners of the Admiralty to acquaint you, for the information of the Com mittee for managing the affairs of Lloyds, that her Majesty's sloop, Scylla, and the Alban, steam-vessel, have been ordered to the Chops of the Channel, to assist any merchant ship de tained thereby the easterly winds. I am, Sir, &c. &c., . . (Signed) JOHN BARROW. To William Dobson, Esq., Secretary, Lloyds. CHINA AND INDIA. The view the Treasury authorities have tak en re specting the " Odium Scrip" given by Captain El hot, as indemnification for the drug delivered for destruction by the British merchants, at Canton, when the first rupture occurred there, in refusing the allocation of any portion of the ransom money for the liquidation of it, is naturally regarded by them as ominous of a total rejection of their claims, ttnd therefore the last letters from India mention the subject with some degree of concern to their con nexions here : seeing that the appeal w hi c h was made for the appropriation of the " sycee silver" to this purpose was not entertained, but that it was specifically held to he a droit of the C rown , t h e holders of the scrip despair of Parliament ever making good their loss from the public exchequer, inasmuch as it is stated, that although no doubt the primary demand of Sir 11. Pottinger, when the Emperor is brought to reason, will be the reim bursement of the expenses of the war, these will have swelled to so large a n amou nt, that any con s ide ra ti on which might b e entertained for the 2,000,0001., the estimated value of the drug destroyed, will be fore borne, should it in-any measure be su o-ed to im pede the other and i larger settlement. finder these circumstances, it ssaid, not, however, with the idea e of weakening the rights of parti who ever hold the Go vernment responsible f or such claims, but rather as a mitigation of their loss, sho u ld the Treasury'it i autho rities still exclude them fram re li ef, co nsolation to learn that the loss, thatsustainedsb somethe delivering of the 20,000 ch es t s of opium toy the Chinese has been, if not altogeth er , i n a great mea sure, made up by the gains which th e merchants have made in their subsequent opium transactions. The destruction of so large a quantity of the d rug did not fail to give it an enhanced v i alue n the market, and thus contributed to reimburse those who had been sufferers. The report of the Agricultural Society of India had made its appearance just prior to the despatch of the journals received by the last overland mail, but Unaccompanied by the papers which are read at the usual meetings, and which illustrate the progress Made in the various experiments of cultivation. It, • however, states, that the chief objects which have en gaged the attention of the Society during the year 1841 were the condition of rice cultivation in Bengal, and the benefits likely to result from the introduction of Carolina Tice, and the interchange of the Baraset grain wit!i other districts of Bengal ; the establish ment of hop cultivation in India, and the production of rip e hops at Bangalore ; the planting of timber trees throughout the north-west provinces, and the recrdipt and distribution of a large supply of Ameri ca• a cotton-seed, to the extent of eighty-two maunds, v ,Thich are stated to have been despatched to almost every district in llindostan, as well as to the neighbouring countries. At the nursery of the So ciety the greatest attention has been bestowed on the culture of the sugar-cane, of which 41,400 had been distributed through the provinces, the aim being the raising of the character and value of that product. The Society, o n th e w h o l e, appears to b e i n a flourish ing condition, and the native members were increas ing ; the ratio at present, as compared with Europeans, was however as 1 to 16. Immediate below the abstract of the report of the Agricultural Society, in the India papers, is the account of the failure of the cotton experiment at Surat, where it will be remembered it was com menced under the three American planters whom the Court of Directors procured, at so heavy an expense, in order to improve the cotton cultivation of India. The ill success attending the experiment seems to have arisen from the bad management of the general superintendent, the Chief Collector of the district, who appears to have been a person but little adapted for the overlooking of an experiment so important in its character, connected as it is with the manufac tures of the mother country. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, April 14. Their Lordships met at Five o'Clock. EDUCATION (IRELAND). The Earl of WICKLOW presented a petition from a place in the north of Ireland in &von. of the Church Education Society. METROPOLITAN BRIDGE TOLLS. The NOBLE EARL also presented a petition, numerously signed, from the inhabitants of the northern districts of the Metropolis, for the abolition of tolls on Waterloo and other Metropolitan Bridges. POOR-LAWS. . Lord PORTMAN presented a petition from a parish . in Devonshire, praying for certain alterations of the ex isting Poor-laws. CORN-LAWS—THE TARIFF. Lord WESTERN presented a petition from a num ber of farm-tenants in the county of Lincoln, against the alteration of the Corn-laws proposed by the Government, and also against the new tariff. Nothing could exceed the consternation of the petitioners that such measures should be proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Govern ment, who had so long professed to be the friend of the agricultural interest. The petitioners felt that they had been deceived by the Government and their own re.. presentatives.—(Loud cries of " Hear," from the Earl of Winchilsea.) The petitioners gave the lie to the malig nant charge which had been circulated through 1 the Anti-Corn-law districts, that the Corn-law was a landlord's question.—(Hear, hear.) The farm tenants felt that it was their question.—(Hear, hear.) They felt that if the whole of the rent were given up it would not compensate them for the reduction of the ' price of corn by 10s. in the quarter.—(Hear, hear, from the Earl of Winchilsea.) He felt that they had been deceived by the Government.—(Renewed and vehement cries of " Hear, hear," from the Earl of Winchilsea.) They had also been deceived by their re presentatives, who pledged themselves to maintain the old law.—(Hear, hear.) The Duke of WELLINGTON said—My Lords, as there is a day fixed for the discussion of the measures proposed to the other House by my Right Hon. Friend at the head of her Majesty's Government, I think it will be as well if Noble Lord 3 would refrain from those harsh expressions.—(Hear, hear.) I think it would be ' as well it they would refrain from saying that the coun try had been deceived by the Government.—(Hear.) I think that those expressions ought to be avoided, till the House can come fairly to the discussion of the question, and the Noble Lord :,an have an opportunity of stat ing how, when, and where, and in what language, my Lords—l say in what language —my Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government has deceived the people. —(Cheers.) I think that the Noble Lord in his can dour ought to have stated how, and when,- and where my Right Hon. Friend has deceived the people. My Lords, I deny the fact.—(Loud cheers.) I deny it as firmly and positively as the Noble Lord has as , sorted it.—(Cheers.) I say it is not true, and there I leave it.—(Cheers.) Lord WESTERN said that the Noble Duke might say that the statement of the petitioners was not true; but he (Lord Western) must repeat that the general belief of the farm-tenants thr o u g h ou t th e coun t r y was . ' that they were deceived by the Government , and by their representatives. The Right Ho '• nourable Baronet had given them reason to believe, by his conduct in 1838, 1839, and 1840, that he would take a course directly opposite to that which he had taken.— (Hear, hear, from Lord Winchilsea.) He would not say that the Right lion. Baronet had wilfully deceived them, but his conduct had led them to believe with confidence that ho would never introduce such measures as were now before Parliament. Messengers from the Commons brought up several private bills. The Earl of STANHOPE presented a petition from the occupiers of land in Basingstoke, praying their Lordships not to allow the present pr o te c ti on on l an d to be withdrawn. Also, a petition from Newbury, which stated that the petitioners looked with dismay and alarm at the measures pr e p a r e d by h er Maje'sty's Go vernment, and praying that they might not pass into law.' . Also a petition to the same effect from Greenwich. Also a petition from Westport, in Ireland, praying the House not to sanction any alteration in .the existing duties on foreign corn and oat-meal. Also a petition from the labourers of Kent, praying that the present protec-• tion given to land should be continued. Upon that oc casion it was not necessary for him to anticipate the ob servations which he should have to make when the new Corn-Bill was before the House. He should, therefore, content himself by expressing his cordial and complete concurrence in the prayer of the petitions. The Earl of RIPON laid on the table certain papers relating to the West Indies and Canadian emigration ; also papers relating to Jamaica and Barbadoes. The Noble Earl presented a petition praying for a reduction of all duties upon the produce of the Canadas. THE A INCO3IE TAX. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the in habitants of St. James Limehouse, in vestry assembled, against the proposed income tax—as not justified by the financial difficulty of the Ministry, as inquisitorial in its character, and unequal in its operation. The Noble and Learned Lord here adverted to his late speech on the income tax. He certainly was persuaded that property alone should not be taxed, while what was called professional income should escape ; for, on this prin c ipl e , the ample income o f hi s N o bl e and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, and that of the Archbishop of Canterbury would not pay anything, while the small tradesman who derived 1801. to 2001. a year from bwiiness would be taxed as a holder of property. But property and income should not be taxed to an equal degree. He should again draw their Lordships' attention to the question. The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition from St. Mary's, one of the Orkney Islands, against the Provi sion-laws and in favour of free trade. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. The Earl of WINCHILSE A presented a petition from a place in the county of Tyrone against the na tional system of education in Ireland. The Noble Earl also presented petitions from the Isle of Shepley, in Kent, and from Long Sutton, against the proposed duty on foreign corn, live cattle, and other articles. COLLEGE OF MAYNOOTH. Lord KE NYON presented several petitions from Essex, Denbighshire, and other counties, against a continuance of the Parliamentary grant to the College of Maynooth. The Noble Lord observed that the cause of the grant had long ceased, and the gr an t oug ht t o h ave cease d also. The course of education in the College was of the most injurious tendency, which he pledged himself to prove if their Lordships would grant a Committee. Lord CLONCURRY was convinced that all persons interested in Maynooth would prefer an inquiry into its system, as it would establish its merits, for nothing could be better conducted as a place of education. It was under the management ofsome of the first men in the coun try of the Catholic religion. His opinion was, that instead of the present grant being withdrawn, it should be made five or ten times as much, if their Lordships' were anxious that the priests brought up in it should be of the same class as those formerly educated on the Continent. Their Lordships should remember that the grant was first given as an indemnity for the sums invested for educa tion on the Continent ; and also because there was great fear of the Catholic clergy holding intercourse with the Continent. He (Lord C.) was old enough to re member the Irish priests brought up on the Continent, and he could say that they were men of a high Class as regarded learning and deportment.—(Hear, hear.) Ile did not mean to disparage the men now educated at Maynooth, but the fact was, the sum given for their edu cation was so small that people of the humbler classes ' generally entered it. He recollected when men of the first families were priests in Ireland, but, considering the origin of many of the present clergymen, it was a matter of surprise that their conduct was so excellent—indeed. they were principally the authorities who maintained public order and tranquillity in periods of distress and agitation. Tho Earl of WICKLOW concurred in a g,reat deal of what had been said by his Noble Friend. Indeed to petition Parliament to overthrow the grant for Maynooth, was the height of absurdity—(Hear, hear) — and no person who knew the country would recommend ' it. The best policy for Parliament would be to increase the grant, so as to enable the Institution to educate the priests of the present day equal to those the Noble Lord described as formerly educated on the Continent. ' Nothing could promote the tranquillity of the country more than such a step. Lord •KENYON asked the Noble Lord whether he was aware of the course of instruction in Maynooth, and whether he had ever seen the class book ? If the Noble Lord had, he would no doubt admit the necessity for a Committee of Inquiry. The Earl of WICKLOW had not inspected the course of education at Maynooth, but if it were not such as it ought to be, that was the fault of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, the Lord Chief Justice, and other functionaries, under whose inspection Parlia ment had placed it. FOREIGN FLOUR. The LORD CIiaIsICELLOR presented petitions from THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 15, 1842, Grainge and Ardfinnen, in the county. of Tipperary, against the proposed duty on foreign flour. The Duke of SUTHERLAND presented petitions from Staffordshire, praying for free trade in corn. The Marquis et NORNI,ANBY gave notice that he should to-morrow present the petition to which he had before alluded from Bull, relative to the late decisions of the Magistrates of that town. MERCHANTS AND FACTORS BILL. The Earl of RIPON, in moving the second reading of the Merchants and Factors Bill, said he sh , uldpostpone the discussion on the Bill un til it was i n Committee. THE EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. On the motion of the Duke of WELLINGTON, the Exchequer Bills Bill was read a second time. On the motion that the Bill be committed, Lord CAMPBELL said he did not wish to point out any mode upon which to act with respect to the pro ceedings of the Commission, but he thought that if they had not the assistance of counsel they would 'Niter be able to get through the business. He thought ,that a discretionary power should be left entirely to the Com mission. The Duke of WELLINGTON thought it would be best to leave it to the Commission themselves to make any regulations with respect to their proceedings. After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM, The Bill was committed, reported without amend ments, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. SPIRIT DUTIES (IRELAND) BILL.' On the motion that the Spirit Ditties (Ireland) Bill be committed, The Earl of WICKLOW said he wished to say a few words on the subject. He did not wish to offer the slightest objection to the measure ; on the contrary, he thought it would be a most beneficial Bill, as he be lieved it would tend to moralise the !people. But with the recollection of the effects of the old duties, he felt this to be a proper subject for taxation, and nothing would have induced him to have given his sup port to it, if he did not believe that her Majesty's Government, in bringing forward that measure, had given the fullest and most mature consideration to all the circumstances attending this measure. tide did not mean with respect to increasing the revenue, for that was a mere trifle, but to the moral effect it would have on the people. This measure would tend to put an end to illicit distillation, and thus be a great moral benefit to the people. Lord MONTEAGLE did not agree with the Noble Lord who bad just sat down, for he believed that it was a measure entirely for revenue, and that it would be productive of all the mischievous effects of the'old tax. He considered that it would contribute largely to the purposes of revenue, but at the same time have the effect of demoralising the country. He thought that authority not only of a legislative character, but also of a deliberate character, could be appealed to on this subject. It had been brought under the consideration of a Commission, and after a full inquiry on the subject-they reported that they were convinced that in the remote parts of Ireland and ScOtland it was impossible to levy the high rates of duty. When the duty was increased Is. on Irish spirits, the increase, which had formerly been 9,000,000, was reduced to 8,100,000 gallons. There was then a further inquiry, and a Commission was held, of which Sir Henry Parnell was the Chairman, and after a full inquiry, they reported that, whereas an increase of duty had led to a loss of revenue, a reduction of one shilling would lead to a gain in the revenue ; and they, therefore, recommended that step. In 1844 Lord Althorp, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, proposed a reduction in the duty from 3s. 4d. to 2s. 4d., stating that he anticipated that the production would be increased from eight million to ten million gallons ; the effect was, that in the second year it rose to eleven millions. Thus stood the spirit duties till 1840, when Mr. Baring added 4d. to the amount of duty, and on that occasion the present Chancellor of the Ex chequer objected to the proposition, asserting most dis tinctly that a loss of revenue would ensue. From this it would be seen that in the same proportion as they re duced the duty they . augmented the revenue—(Hear) — and whenever they increased the duty they decreased the revenue. The case was most serious now, and if illicit distillation should again prevail, the Noble Duke must know" in what an unpleasant position her Ma jesty's troops would be placed if they should be called on to repress it.—(Hear, hear.) There was no service on which troops could be engaged which was so destructive of their organisation as that. Out of 16,000 commitments in Ireland for criminal offences, 4,000 alone arose out of illicit distillation. The inducement to distil was now greater than ever, and it used to be notorious that in Ireland there used to be a criminal connivance between those who distilled and the farmers and inhabitants of the district; and a Scotch distiller, examined before Lord Wallace's Committee, when asked what market he got for his production, replied," Principally officers of the army and dig,nitc-ies of the Church." He thought it duo to himself to have made' these observations, and to call the attention of the Government to the necessity of taking instant measures, by way of precaution, to pre vent illicit distillation. There was now an excellent police force in Ireland, under the command of a distin guished officer, Colonel Brereton and he hoped that would lead to a decrease o f illi c it distillation and crime in that country. The Duke of WELLINGTON said that the Go vernment had taken every precaution, and it was their firm opinion that this Bill would not increase illicit distillation. The Earl of RIPON said, one point to which his Noble Friend referred was the difference be tween the duty on Irish and Scotch spirits. In Scotland the duty was Is. more than in Ireland. This was a proposition to equalise the two duties, and he could assure his Noble Friend that the greatest possible incon venience had arisen, especially to the free trader, in con sequence of that difference in duty. It would have been imprudent to have reduced the duty on ScOtch spirits so as to have made it equal to that on Irish ; therefore, un less it could be shown that raising of the duty on Iri s h to that of Scotch would be att e nd e with the result men- tinned by his Noble Friend, he thought it would be desirable to increase that on Irish. His Noble Friend had referred to the reduction of duty, but the duty at that time was considerably higher than it was proposed to make it now. He (the Earl of Ripon) brought forward the proposition, but the reduction was not, in his opinion, a desirable one ; yet it was, in his opinion, the only way to cut up by the roots the immense system of illicit distillation. But when they had destroyed that, it did not follow that they might not at times endeavour to raise the duty to as high a point as it would bear. They had consulted the Excise authorities and others, whose experience was most valuable, and the result was a persuasion that the additional shilling would not increase the practice of il licit distillation. Lord MONTEAGLE agreed that the equalisation of the duty would be a great good both to Scotland and Ireland ; but he feared that the additional shilling would induce a recurrence to illicit distillation in the remote parts of Ireland, and this practice would, he feared, offer a most dangerous temptation to those who were members of the admirable temperance institutions there.—The Bill went through Committee. GREENWICH SCHOOL. Viscount DUNGANNON proposed a resolution to the efieet that an inspector from the Privy Council should in future inspect Greenwich school and examine the boys. When boys were first sent into this school it was expected, that after going through their education, they would enter the Royal or mercantile navy. It was found that very few did so ; and the education the school gave them was so bad and impracticable, that when they were sent home at the age of 14 they were a burden to their parents or parishes. In consequence of a com plaint from the late Governor to tho Admiralty, an inspector was sent down : his Report represented the boys to be in an astonishing state of ignorance and stu pidity. Boys who had been there three years scarcely understood or knew anything. The Admiralty, therefore, requested the Woods and Forests to re-organise the school. In consequence of this an alteration took place, and a master was appointed qualified for the office. The boys i were more or less placed under the charge of the master. Great opposition was manifested to the master having influence over the boys out of school. He was happy to find that his Noble Friend, the Earl of Haddington, in tended to get rid of all the evils mentioned in those re ports. Ile (Lord Duncannon) could not see why a school under Government control should be theonly one exempt from the inspection of the Committee on Edu- cation. He hoped his . Noble Friend would not allow the school longer to remain without that inspection. The Earl of HADDINGTON said, that although there was a partial difference of opinion between his Noble Friend and himself, they were at least agreed in this, that they were extremely anxious to preserve and perpetuate the Naval School at the Royal Hospital, Greenwich, and the advantage to be derived from the interposition of the Privy Council. The statements of his Noble Friend were too freely made, and would most positively be denied, and that by persons of the highest respectability and some of the facts were not so clear as his Noble Friend had said. His Noble Friend said that the late Admiral Fleming complained that very few of the boys entered the navy. Now he (Lord IL) had a document signed by persons of the highest respectability in the Hospital, to the effect that, of the whole number of boys, 133, about one-third were discharged every year, of whom an average number of from 60 to 70 went direct to sea, and several others followed after they had visited their friends. He (Lord IL) had also another complaint to make of his Noble Friend's third resolu tion, for his Noble Friend took no notice of the success .. ful labour of Mr. Riddle. True, the elementary branches had been defective, the others had been omitted or were not ~volt attended to, but the nautical department was eminently successful under Mr. Riddle, as several ex perienced officers of the navy could prove. The Ad miralty sent two Commissioners to examine and report on Mr. Riddle's method of instruction. Nothing could have been more triumphant as regarded Mr. Riddle, than the report of these gentlemen, for there was nu doubt that the boys turned out by Mr. Riddle were some of the best navigators in the service. From a report from the Astrea hulk, from which boys were, distributed to other vessels, and on hoard which there were twenty boys educated by Mr. Riddle, nineteen of whom were very smart and exemplary, and whether the twentieth was not so from incapacity or bad conduct he could not say. His Noble Friend had made out no case for the interference of the House, and he (Lord H.) hoped the House would not interfere, as the Admiralty wished to conduct the school on their own responsibility, and they desired to give a full trial to the change they had introduced.—(Hear, hear.) Their plan was, so far as regarded conduct, to leave the internal control of the school to the master, but to introduce the discipline of the navy into the play-ground, and the out-of-door pro ceedings, and to exclude all necessary severity. He proposed that there should be no punishment on the part of naval officers, but there should be a mild discipline, at the same time that it should be suited to the character of the place. What he wished to press on their Lordships was, that there was no ground laid for the inquiry. They (the Government) had declared their conviction that the schools wanted improvement, and they wished to de sp, and they asked that they (the Opposition) would leave it to them, on their own responsibility, to propose a plan for their improvement. His Noble Friend seemed to have some jealousy relative to the inspector re porting to the Board of Admiralty. These schools were placed under the control of the Board of Ad miralty, and it was only natural that they should feel anxious on behalf of them. He should propose that when the Report shall be laid on the table of the two Houses, there should also be laid before them a Report of the state of these schools. He hoped their Lordships would consent to wait for the development of the Government plans. The Noble Lord concluded by moving that the house do now adjourn. The Duke of WELLINGTON seconded the motion. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that be thought it his duty to say a few words on this question previous to the adjournment of the House. The Board of Admi ralty, feeling itself incompetent to amend the gross evils which had grown to such a height in these schools, called on the Privy Council to appoint an inspector. It was very inconvenient to the public service that in each de partment there prevailed a sort of domestic spirit in every corner, which rose in arms whenever any in quiry was attempted —(Hear, hear.) He had on other occasions endeavoured to impress upon their Lordships that when a provision was made for the endowment and maintenance of schools, provision should be made at the same time to regulate the details of the system of educa tion to be pursued. The neglect of this had led to the greatest disorders in the Greenwich schools, which were so splendidly endowed. According to the report of Ad miral Fleming, one of the inspectors appointed by the Privy Council, those schools were a striking instance of establishments splendid in their outward appearance, but in their interior perverting the purposes for which they were established.—(Hear.) ho badly were the schools managed, that the Commissioners were obliged to dissolve the girls' school altogether, and send the in mates back to their parents, so utterly corrupted had been their morals from the want of all proper superintendence. And this was the case with an , establishment which was endowed to the amount of 20,000 L a year.—(gear,) He considered the remedy contemplated by the Admiralty would prove inadequate. The Privy Council had always attached great import ance to having its inspectors subject to its control alone, and they had refused to allow schools of great magni tude to be inspected, unless the reports of the inspectors should be made to no other bOdy but itself. He thought that under any arrangement it would be necessary that the masters should have the entire control of the boys, without the co-ordinate authorityof sergeants and masters. Lord COLCHESTER read extracts from the letters of Admiral Fleming and the Privy Council inspector, to /show that the schools had not been so great a failure as the Noble Lords opposite (Lansdowne and Duncannon) supposed ; but that many young men sent out from there had done themselves great credit as officers, not only in the merchant service, but in the Royal navy. With re spect to the alle ge d dissolution of the girls' school, the Noble Marquis was incorrect. The recommendation of the inspector was, that it should be removed to a dis tance from the establishment for the boys, but not that it should be dissolved. Viscount DUNCANNON replied. !lie did not mean to say anything disparagingly of Mr. Riddle. His (the Noble Lord's) objections applied to the lower, and not to the higher departments of the school, except as re garded religious instruction, in which they were all equally deficient. The question was then put, and the amendments being carried, their Lordships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 14. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. SUDBURY ELECTION COMMITTEE. Mr. REDINGTON reported to the House, as Chair man of the Committee appointed to try the merits of the petition against the return for the borough of Sudbury, that the Committee had agreed to resolutions, to the effect that Mr. F. Villiers and Mr. Dyce Sombre were not duly elected to serve in the present Parliament, for Sudbury, at the late election for the borough and that the said election was a void election. He begged also to impress on the House the following re , solution :—" That Mr. Villiers and Mr. Dyco Sombre, at the said election, were by their agents gUilty of bribery, and the Committee were of opinion, from the , evidence they had received, that gross, systematic, and extensive bribery had prevailed at the said election. The Committee further thought it their duty to express their unanimous opinion that the borough of Sudbury ought to be disfranchised, and that a new writ ought not to be issued for the said borough."—(Hear.) Mr. REDINGTON then moved that the Speaker do not issue his warrant for a new writ before the 7th of May. The question was then put and agreed to. CORN-LAWS. Mr. BRAMSTON presented a petition from the Farmer's Club of Chelmsford, in Essex, expressive of the anxiety with which they viewed the proposed altera tions in the Corn-laws, which would tend to damage the welfare of the agriculturists. THE TARIFF. Colonel FERGUSON presented a petition from boot and shoe-makers against any alteration in the duties on leather. Sir J. TROLLOPE presented a petition from Bolton. against any alteration in the tariff. RIGHT OF PETITION. Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Edinburgh, stating that the petitioners had prePared petitions to that House on the subjeeL of the proposed financial measures, but they had been prevented from presenting them by the rules of the House. They now claimed the right of petitioning, and prayed the House to do away with any usage to the con trary.—(Hear.) CARDIGAN ELECTION COMMITTEE. Mr. J. O'CONNELL said he regretted the absence from the House last evening of his Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Mayo, who was prevented from attending by con trary winds, whereby he had lost the mail. His Hon. Friendteirnshbeedr, 1:: (Zr. toex o p , r c e o ss nn h el i l s ) regretiopedthe House for having e broken the rules or the Hous e; and as he was o n ly a young Member, would take his case into consideration. He begged, therefore, to move that Mr. M: Blake be discharged from the custody of the Sergeant -at-Arms on paying the fees. Sir VALENTINE BLAKE seconded the motion. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said that it was difficult for the House so to act as to properly mark their disapprobation of the Conduct of an Honourable Member without inflicting too severe a punishment. There were constitutional as well as other grounds why Members should not be confined in custody for any length of time, but the expense to which other parties were put by their absence required that they should be subjected to such a pecuniary fine as would indemnify the parties ; and the question now was to what extent i the Hon. Member fur Mayo was to be fined. The amount of' the fees were about 251. or 301., and as that might not be sufficient to ensuro the attendance of Mem hers. he would propose that such a sum of money should be exacted from the Hon. Member as would indemnify the parties. But he scarcely knew, in the present in stance, how he should shape the motion. Sir G. GREY concurred in the observations made by the Noble Lord, that some fixed sum should be imposed upon Members who absented themselves. If that were not the case the expense of a messenger to be sent to Ireland to arrest the Hon. Member for Mayo should be added to the usual fees, whereas if the Hon. Member for Finsbury, or the Hon. Member for London were the offending parties no such expense would be incurred. He was glad, therefore, that the Noble Lord threw out the suggestion of a fixed sum, but the House should retain the power of increasing it, if any Hon. Member set it at defiance. Lord DUNCAN said he considered the notice which Hon. Members received was too short. He thought that they should receive 48 hours' notice instead of 12. Lord G. SOMERSET said that he was guided by the provisions of the Act of Parliament in the notice which was given, and it was taken to the usual residence of Hon. Members with all convenient expedition. But if they once went outside the rules and regulations of the Act, it would put them to great inconvenience. The question was then put and agreed to, that Mr. Mark Blake be discharged from the custody of the Ser geant-at-Arms.______ Lord KELBURNE presented a petition against the propositions of her Majesty's Government (as we un derstood).__ Mr. MURPHY presented a petition from the shoe makers of Cork, signed by 547 persons, against any al teration in the duty on foreign manufactured leather. Col. ACTON presented a petition from a place in Ireland, praying that means might be devised for an ex tensive system of education under the direction of the Church Ed, cation Soc'ety of I_ 'lnd. Mr. VILLIERS presented several petitions from York and other places, praying for a repeal of th e C orn -l aws. Sir GEORGE CLERIC presented a petition from Stamford, against the proposed reduction on the duty on foreign boots and shoes. TIPPERARY AND DEVIZES ELECTION. The SPEAKER informed the House that he had re ceived a communication from the petitioners against the return of the sitting Members for Tipperary and De vizes, stating their intention of withdrawing the petition. RIGHT OF PETITIONING. Lord F. EGERTON rose, and said that, on bringing forward the resolutions of which he had given notice, relative to the presentation of petitions, it would not be necessary for him to go at length into a subject already so fully discussed. The object which he had in view was of a twofold character; he wished in the first place to open the doors of th e H ouse to the petitions of the people, and in the next pl ace h o was d es i rous that that s h ou ld be done under such regulations as would prevent undue interfer ence with the control of public business in that House. He begged leave to say, that in putting himself forward i on that occasion be did not wish to interfere with the claims of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. He was fully prepared to admit, that all the honour that could follow a settlement of the question, belonged exclusively to that Hon. Member ; and he (Lord F. Egerton) had inter posed solely from a conviction that an individual like himself, without influence or authority in that House, would not have to contend with obstacles to which a leader of any party might be exposed. He could assure the House that his only wish was to put an end to a state of things which he found was likely to lead to great public inconvenience. The Noble Lord concluded by moving the first resolution as follows :—" That every Member offering to present a petition to the House, not being a petitio for a Private Bill, or relating to a Private Bill before the House, do confine himself to a statement of the parties from whom it comes, of the number of signatures attached to it, and of the material allegations contained in it, and to the reading of the prayer of such petition." Mr. WAKLEY seconded the motion. _ _ Nfr. WAELAC - 117rOiested against the passing of this resolution, as actirg prejudicially on the House during the present Session; but he also more strongly objected to making it a standing order. They i were proceedi ng i n a w rong course n refusing to debate on the presentation of petitions from the people. It was owing to the adoption of that practice that their debates were protracted night after night ; because by being precluded from speaking on, presenting petitions, Members - were forced to speak during the debates, and to reserve themselves for those great occasions. He might mention the late debates on the income tax and on the Corn-laws as cases in point. Formerly Members were allowed to discuss questions on the presentation of petitions, and the consequence was that many Members taking that opportunity of delivering their sentiments, the debates were conducted solely by the leading Members of each side ; but, in consequence of the present prac tice, Members were forced to d e li ver their sentiments during the discussion of great questions, and hence the necessity for the frequent adjournments of de bates, a practice to which he always had objected, and always should object. In consequence of this, the first four hours of every evening were abandoned to the minor Members, and the great guns never went off until after ten o'clock.—(A laugh.) He should certainly divide against the resolution, and also against several of the others of which the Noble Lord had given notice. How could the people know if the petitions had been attended to unless they were debated ? What did they know about the Committee on Public Petitions ? How could they ascertain whether their petitions had been read by that Committee or not? They had no means of ascertain ing from thelpapers of the House. Those papers were now sold instead of being distributed in the profuse manner in which they formerly were, so that the people did not now receive them from the Members in the same manner as they had done formerly. He should divide the House against the resolution. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE could assure the Noble Lord that he was actuated by no feeling of jealousy against him for proposing those resolutions. Any such feeling would be unworthy of himself (Mr. T. Duncombe) and un worthy of the subject. He did not altogether approve of the resol u ti on of the Noble Lord in the terms in which it was couched. He thought after the manner in which the consent of the Government to the practice of presenting these petitions had been wrested from the Government, the concession might have been made in a more gracious manner.—(Cheers.) When he (Mr. T. Duncombe) had moved that the House do discontinue the practice of refusing to receive petitions on the subject of taxation, he never supposed that those questions would be received in a manner different from that iu which peti tions were usually received ; and if so, what was the use of coming down with a string of resolutions, re affirming a practice which had already been affirmed by the decision on the motion of the Hon. Mem ber for Greenock ? The present Parliament was pledged by the existing resolutions, and no debate on the pre sentation of a petition could take place without rescind ing them. The Noble Lord proposed to make that a standing order, to be binding on future Parliaments. It would be always competent to future Parliaments to take whatever course they chose on the subject. If the resolution were made a Standing Order it must be submitted to any future Parliament be fore it could be binding on them, and they would have the power of rescinding it if they chose. The sixth resolution was certainly embodied in the reso lution which Om (Mr. D.) had proposed on a former evenin . g, " That petitions against any Resolution or Bill, imposing duties for the current service of the year, be henceforth received, and that the usage under which the House has refused such petitions be discontinued." But then there were certain words in the commencement of this resolution, namely, " sub jecct to the above regulations." Now he (Mr. D.) never proposed that those petitions, which he presented, should be treated in any other mode than the House had been accustomed to treat all other petitions laid before it. It was not much of a " feather bed " upon which the Honourable Member let down the Right Honourable Baronet in proposing these resolutions; but it was down, hard and heavily, on the bare ground. The introduction of the words " subject to the above regulations" was perfect surplusage, and he should propose, that they be left out o f the resolution. He also thought, that the words "for the current service of the year" should be left out, and that the word " and taxes" should be inserted after the word " duties." The very principle of the resolution which he (Mr. D.) had proposed, was, that any petitions should be received against a measure for the imposition of taxes or duties, whether they were for the present or future years. He (Mr. D.) should cer tainly vote with the Hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. Wallace) if that Hon. Gentleman pressed his motion to a division. Mr. AGLIONBY said that the resolution now pro posed was but a mere transcript of the resolution agreed to by the House on this subject at the beginning of the Session. He wished to know if it was competent for him, or for any other Hon. Member, to move that that resolution be rescinded. The SPEAKER said certainly not. Mr. AGLIONBY said that that being so, he appealed to them whether the resolution now proposed could be put in its present shape? The effect of a majority on the resolution would be to rescind it, and could it be that they might do indirectly that which it was not in their power to effect by direct and immediate means? He should feel it his duty to divide against the resolu tion. Though the House might find it convenient, in some respects, to treat the petitions of the people as they had decided to treat them during this session, the people out of doors neither appreciated the rule nor understood the practice. There were other means by which the interruption of public business might be prevented he recollected the time when the petitions of the people were presented and discussed in the morning, and the public business of the House in the evening expe dited. But now Members, who would express the opinions of their constituents at this period of the day, spoke during the principal debate, and was not the time of the House thus occupied ? If the prac tice were again adopted, the great authorities of the House would have the evening debate to themselves. The Right Hon. Baronet had twice insinuated during this session that, from there being very few Members present at a certain part of the evening, the subject was not regarded with very great interest. This was not the case ; it was because Members absented themselves till the important part of the debate commenced. If petitions were allowed to be presented at another part of the day, they would find that those Members who spoke at a particular period of the evening, would then express their opinions on the discussion of the petitions, and leave the evening to the great authorities of the House. Sir R. PEEL said, that after be had fairly avowed that his opinion was overruled, and that he thought he was substantially in a minority, he did not feel at all uneasy about the matter.—(Hear, hear.) It could not signify to him how the resolutions were worded. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he had not sug gested one single modification, w ith a view to break his fall. He could not, agree with the Hon. Gentleman as to the disadvantages attending the practice which now prevailed. He thought that the rule which con fined gentlemen who did not occupy a prominent political station to debating on petitions, placed them in a much worse position than they were at present, when they took part in the general debates. The Hon. Gentleman com plained that the interesting speeches did not co mmence till after half-past nine o'clock. In that respect he could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman. He had sat there before that hour, and he must say some o the most interesting speeches which had been made during that debate, had been made in that part of the evening. He had heard, for instance, the speech of the Hon. Member for Leeds—a speech which displayed great ability, and contained powerful arguments against his (Sir Robert Peel's) proposition.—(Hear, hear.) He had also heard the Gallant Commodore opposite (Sir Charles Napier) make an excellent speech, and he must say he had seldom heard a better speech on the subject, or that he had ever heard an Hon. Gentleman state his opinions more fairly, and he would be glad to hear the Hon. and Gallant Commodore more frequently on subjects of that kind.—(A laugh.) Then there was the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool, in which the Noble Lord spoke of the advantage of facilitating the consumption of timber, of the encourage ment which should be given to ship building, and of the importance of letting in the raw material ; it was one of the best speeches that the Noble Lord had ever made. He did assure the Hon. Member that if he attended at that period of the evening he would hear some of the very best speeches that were made in that House. AGLIONBY said he was scarcely ever absent. Sir R. PEEL said when that Right Hon. Gentleman said the debates were not interesting he had concluded that he was not present to hear the speeches in question. The petitions used to be received in the morning ; if that were set apart for the presenting of petitions and 'hearing speeches on them, then, as the Hon. Gentleman said, the spirit of the debate would evaporate by the evening. The present regulation was simply one against the reception of petitions against taxes for the current service of the year. He was perfectly willing t 4 depart from the old practice, if the House would establish some other feasible plan. Mr. AGLIONBY briefly explained. Mr. WAKLEY said the Noble Lord had brought forward this subject, in the spirit in which his Honourable Colleague had proposed it a few nights ago. If the present resolutions were adopted, the popular party would lose a very valuable privilege, and under the circumstances, he did not see why any compromise should take place.—(Hear.) It the present resolutions were adopted, they would be in a far worse position than they were at present with regard' to petitions. His Hon. Colleague, after his motion was lost on the first night brought up a petition contrary to the rules of the House, but if these resolutions were passed that could not be done any more. No dis cussion could take place, because the words of the second resolution were that "No Member should be allowed to speak upon, or in relation to, such petition," and, therefore, no incidental matter could be discussed or noticed, because the Speaker would desire the Member to take his seat, and he would be obliged to do so.—(Hear.) Ho would, therefore, ask the Right Hon. Baronet, who frankly owned that he had not changed his opinion upon the subject, but was over-ruled, to consent to the motion of his Hon. Col league, and that would be the frank and honest mode of action, and would give satisfaction to all.---(Hear, hear.) At present the Right Honourable Baronet was aware that it w as impossible for any Minister to prevent those proceedings on petitions jwhich had already occurred ; but if the present resolutions were adopted, and became Standing Orders, the practice with respect to petitions would be even more stringent than at present. He hoped his Hon. Colleague, therefore, would bring a substantive resolution on the subject be fore the House.—(Hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he agreed with the Honourahle Member that the first resolution which was brought forward would be the best to adopt, and that it would be quite sufficient.--(hear, hear.) The only diff erence b e t ween th e t wo courses was, that the proposition of the Noble Lord would convert into Standing Oiders the p H resont resolutions of the ouse, which the Speaker e-rned d ar i ng the present session, and which was binding on the present Parliament. Now, although he thought that the resolutions might b( liable to some objentions, he so far approved of them in substance, that he was not induced to off.ar any opposi tion to the Noble Lord. The Hon. Member for Green ock, and the Hon. Member for Cockernesiith,were ßu for t renewing the old practice of speaking on petitions. he did not agree with them in that particular ; and he could not vote against a practice which he had himsel been instrumental in establishing. It appeared to bin that a return to the former usages wouldlead to great in convenience. Let them suppose a case with respect to the new tariff. Petitions against the tariff. could be received ; but if the old practice were enforced, they might have debates upon the presentation of petitions upon any matter containing the tariff ; and no man could say upon what point' the debate of the evening might turn. An Hon. Member for Worcester might bring forward the case of gloves — another Hon. Member might bring forward the case of boots and shoes—another Hon. Member the case of copper and tin ores ; at the same time, none of those debate could come to any practical end, nor could any one say at what time the business on the paper would be likely to commence. Even on the day which the Right Hon. Gentleman might happen to fix upon for the con sideration of the tariff, it would be impossible to say whether the debate would commence before ten or eleven o'clock. In order to remedy that inconvenience. the House had fixed a certain hour at which the presentation of petitions should cease, and the business of the evening should begin. AU the evils of the ancient practice would be renewed if they were to have recourse to it again. This further inconvenience would follow from such a course, that a petition relating to some particular in terest might occupy the House during the even ing, while no petitions could be presented upon other subjects of great importance. He could not, therefore, concur with those Hon. Members who were for reviving the former practice of the House. He should certainly have wished that the Noble Lord had contented himself with the sanction already given to the new rules relative to the presentation of peti tions ; but as the Noble Lord thought that it would be desirable to put that resolution in a more formal shape, he should not oppose the course taken by the Noble Lord, and he was, therefore, ready to vote in favour of the resolutions before the House. Mr. JAMES said, that he entirely concurred with the Noble. Lord. If they were to return to the old practice of debating petitions, they should bid farewell to sessions of five, six, or seven months, they should sit from the Ist of January to the 31st of December, all day and all night.—(Laughter.) Lord F. EGERTON said, in explanation, that in adding the words for " the current service of the year," of which the Hon. Member for Finsbury had com plained, it was his intention to meet the case which had already occupied much of the attention of the House. Mr. ROEBUCK said that it was clear the addition of the words for " the current service of the year" would narrow the proposition of the Noble Lord. The more large the proposal the greater number of pe titions it included, and of course narrowing the pro position meant bringing down the number of petitions. There would be a smallr number of petitions presented on questions affecting the revenue. The motion of the lion. Member for _Finsbury being lost by one, the Noble Lord comes forward with resolutions not confined to the question, whether such petitions be presented or not, but travelling back to a resolution of the House affecting all petitions whatever. The Noble Lord, and the House had found that petitions must be presented, but they declare .that it is inconve nient they should be discussed. The Noble Lord came forward to cover the retreat of his friends with a string of resolutions, granting them (the Liberals) the honour of their victory, but depriving them of its substance (Hear, hear)—thus reversing for Ministers the order of English proceedings, by which it was usual to gain the victory and lose its substance; and following the course of foreign diplomacy by which it was usual to lose the victory and gain the substance thereof. In proving the right of presenting petitions to the House at present, he believed they were only fighting for shadows. If they placed the Right Hon. Gentleman in a minority to-night, they would gain nothing by it, for the right of petitioning had passed away. Lord HOWICK said, according to the existing rules of the House, petitions avowedly on the imposition of duties could be presented, with the single exception of those on duties for " the current service of the year." This was proved by the number of petitions presented from both sides of the House relating to the imposition of a duty on corn. No petition could be ex cluded by . the words of the resolution. If there was anything in the presentation of petitions that. de served to be called a farce by the Honour. able and Learned Member for Bath, it arose from the manner in which the right had, he must say, been abused. When petitions were presented by the cart load, it was impossible they could receive so much attention as when a smaller number were presented. At the time they were presented in the early part of the day, no one was ever present, but the Members presenting them ; there was no audience except one or t wo o f th e subordnate Mem bers of the Government. No one attended but those Members who were anxious to make speeches, by whom speeches were made containing statements which went forth to the country uncontradicted. • He thought he had shown considerations quite conclusive :against returning to the old practice of the House. Mr. C. WOOD said, that there were some petitions which could not possibly be presented under those resolutions. He thought that the 4th resolu tion ought to stand in the place of the 3d, and the sth in the place of the 4th, and some alteration should be made in the third resolution.—(Hear, hear.) The House at present sometimes exercised the right of refusing to receive petitions, not because they were di rectly contrary to the rules and orders of the House, but because they were in themselves improper to be received. Now it appeared to him (Mr. C. Wood) that the House, by acceding to the resolutions of the Noble Lord would be giving up that right, as such petitions would then be brought up as a matter of course, and re ferred to the Committee on Public Petitions. Sir GEORGE CLERK rose amidst loud cries of "Di vide ! divide !" He wished to ask the Hon. Member for Halifax what, according to his proposition, would be done with public petitions referring to matters not be fore the House? Mr. O'CONNELL had heard with regret what had fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland in reference to the petitions of the people. Mr. WAKLEY moved that the word "description" should be substituted for the word " statement?' Sir T. WILDE said that he considered that every ob ject would be accomplished by taking the 6th resolution alone, and excluding the others, and by saying that such petitions should be received according to the rules of the House, and not discussed if it was contrary to the rules of the House to discuss them on their presentation. —(Hear, hear.) He thought it was unnecessary to consider any other question at present.—(Cheers.) Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when the numbers were— For the resolution Against the resolution . Majority The remaining resolutions, which are as follow, were then severally put : " 2, That every such petition not containing matter in breach of the privileges of this House, and which, ac cording to the rules or usual practice of this House can be received; be brought to the table by the direction of the Speaker, who shall not allow any debate, or any Member to speak upon, or in relation to, such petition, but it may be read by the Clerk at the table if required. "3. That if the petition relate to any matter or sub ject in respect of which there is any proceeding before the House, or any notice given, it be referred to the Com mittee on Public Petitions'without a question being put. "4. That if the petition relate to any matter or sub ject which the Member presenting it is desirous of bring ing before the House, and if such Member shall state it to be his intention to make a motion thereupon, 'instead of such petition being referred to the Committee on Pub lic Petitions,' such Member may give notice that he will make a motion on some subsequent day That the peti tion be printed with the Votes.' ee. That, in the case of a petition complaining of some present personal grievance, for which there may be an urgent necessity for providing an immediate remedy, the matter contained in such petition may be brought into discussion on the presentation thereof. " 6. That, 'subject to the above regulations,' petitions against any resolution or Bill imposing duties for the current service of the year, be henceforth received, and the usage under which the House has refused to enter tain such petitions, be discontinued." On the fourth resolution being read, it was proposed to omit the words " instead of such petition being re ferred to the Committee on Public Petitions." On the sixth resolution being read, the following addi tion was proposed—" That all other such petitions, after being ordered to lie on the table, be referred to the Com mittee on Public Petitions, without any question being put." On the motion of Mr. T. DUNCOMBE, the words " subject to the above regulations," were struck out of the sixth resolution, which was then agreed to. On the seventh resolution, "That the said resolutions be made Standing Orders of this House" being put, Mr. AGLIONBY said, that this was the resolution Which he particularly objected to. The first resolution, which should not have been entertained, was unneces sarily introduced by the Hon. Member for South Lanca shire. If it meant nothing why was it proposed, and if it meant anything was it not to make more stringent the rules at present in existence against debating the: peti tions of the people?—(Hear, hear.) If that was not the object, why did they seek to turn the present rule of fife House on that subject into a Standing Order? The present re olution had always been acted on, and the Speaker had never had any trouble in enforcing the regulation. The Ministry had been all but beaten on the subject—the concession had been wrung from them unwillingly; but they could not make a concession to pub lic opinion without at the same time endeavouring to re strain popular rights. Had the concession been made fairly by the Right Hon. Baronet it would have been received with gratitude ; .but now the people would feel that in making the concession an endeavour had been made to withhold all that possibly could be withheld. It was taking an ungenerous advantage of the House to act in such a manner. After the decision of the House just now he would not press the matter to a division; but if, as he believed to be the case, there were several Gentlemen who on the former division had voted in the majority, but who objected to making the resolution a Standing Order, if those Gentlemen wished to divide against the resolution he (Mr. Aglionby) would not shrink from going to a division. Mr. CURTEIS said he agreed in all which had fall en from his Hon. Friend, the Member for Cockermouth, and he begged to propose " That the said proposition! be made, and considered regulations of - di; . He thought all who had voted with the Hon. Member for Finsbury must support that proposal. 10 The SPEAKER informed the Hon. Member tb notion was quite nugatory. The re solutiet s ,.. t already in existence ; the object was to make tu iolutions Standing Orders. Mr. WALLACE said he had intended to support resolutions, but a s th e mem bers both of the late 01,.. merit and the present one were combining' I,Y; strict the presentation of petitions, he must decP, do so.—(oh, oh, from the Ministerial Benches.) abject seemed to be to enable lion. Member -3 011 5 sides of the House to secure one particular timo dinner hour. He was extremely . sorry to " 1 101 speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Sundt f t . 01 the constituency of Sunderland were of 111,e ";p1 I l' which he believed them to be, he ",, c iE hte taken to task in the proper place.-- - (L 10 He could not say how it would be done, but if Pi e r) one of the Noble Lord's constituents, he w ould be to call him to account on the hustings for what k said that night. He had been accustomed to tk i; the Tory party were moreinirnical to the interest s 0 0 people than their opponents, the Whigs, but 11°1_,0 now alter his opinion. He would be much astno and deeply grieved if that Noble Person, a . n oth!f who had taken an active part in advocating the tr i 0 of the people, were teget up in the House of I,°'"" express such sentiments. (ai Mr. LAMBTON said that he rose to pro tesVs.sl/°0 what had been said by the Hon. Member for Ge with respect to the Noble Lord, the Member fa6grio;. i p land. The character of that Noble Lord, and th. would agree with him, stood too high to be mJ what had fallen from the Hon. Member. Hie 81 0 went to the right of petition was too well know!, f h north of England, and particularly in the bore ; Sunderland, to be affected by what had fallen fr° Hon. Member; and it was too hard for No n- 316 6 to be attacked and taunted because they voted in, tain way, more particularly when they were absellof Mr. WALLACE said that he was not aw ld absence of the Noble Lord, and, if he was, he Ttrer have said what he had. But her now Ivggell. the same words he had used.—(Laughter.) „l a t if 9, Lord JOHN RUSSELL would only sat , object of the regulations to prevent the di s's s , i ll o ef' petitions was to allow official persons to go t ° i ibe a particular time, when he was in office hiaafP, riot able to go to dinner, and he believed the It .4 '„beil' Gentleman would not be able to go to dinner pleased.—(Laugh ter.) The question was then put and agreed to. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. o ld, Dr. BOWRING gave notice that he t iod-t morrow, move for a return of the amount of 3 in the county of Lancaster. NEWSPAPER STAMPS. o ( 6°' Dr. BOWRING said that he would, "". o, h " move for a return of newspaper stamps; and the ow' of duty paid for advertisements for the last three THE INCOME TAX. i d, oti, Mr. WALLACE gave notice that he Tiro t t l he iner t morrow, on the bringing up of the report on, cbo ul', t tax, move that each proposition of the tariff ' bo olu d discussed, and that the opinion of the House 6 01 c o l' expressed before the income tax should be fur pl o seeded with than a second reading. . The fictoole o .4 also gave notice that he would move that the i:feov should not be continued longer than a years 11 tioned by the House. MEMBERS' SEATS IN THE 1100, Mr. WAKLEY said he wished to put an; the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair, re' a ,f matter which he should not have brought 110' House, were it not that it was one which coace' convenience of Hon. Members generally. ii „, during the debate he had left his seat, for the F o f consulting the Sergeant-at-Arms upon a poinL i i and during his absence an Hon. Gentleme n P the seat, and abruptly refused to give it up be. Wakley's) return. He added that he hau d VI 0 1 formed by several Hon. Members that he ha h r it , hat in the seat which he had been occupYing . tr00 . , 4 17 ' source of great inconvenience, and his object . 1 11 2 1 4 a prr re t the House was to ascertain what was the u s , fol of the House, and whether there was a rw e Pleo the conduct of Hon. Members in this res.': r derstood that a seat might be secured by ..;;esio n at the time of prayers, and taking P a seat. If this were the rule i known, as it was an extremely ince to find a seat occupied which had bee' or three hours by an Hon. Member. Hr of that seat for the purpose of catching eye, and he found that it was a very co) that purpose, and there were many seal from which it was very difficult to do He was anxious to know what was the House. The Hon. Member to whom he of " Don't name")—but he would name Member for Leicester. The SPEAKER said no Hon. Membi to claim a seat unless he was present at Hon. Member fixed his name to a seat, ab it was generally given up to that Hon. Members who had not taken their seats who took possession of them afterwards , House, leaving a hat or a book behind h. practice was, to allow the Hon. Membe , seat by courtesy, but there was no rule u Sir J. EASTHOPE said he was rea , but he could only assure the House that move the hat, and at the tithe he did not the Hon. Member's hat.—(Laughter.) A who was sitting without his hat, took up seat, and instead of his putting it on his under the seat. The Hon. Member for that the application was made in a ra tone ; but he could assure the House tha, rather given up the seat if he had than _ _ Member had been entitled to it, but he the peremptory tone in which the demand t he ask the Hon. Member whether he bad take" 0 4' the time of prayers. He said that he had ) 0 (Sir J. Easthope) did not,.Withdraw Colonel ACTON Moved for leaVe . of eb 3eile -40 ° Litton till the Ist of June. he Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET, said J • cl• the application ought not ,to be grante 4 ol) lo 4 were some explanation given that some fag "d stance required such a 'length of absence a n s After a few words from Sir G. .G V. BLAKE, t hsv Colonel ACTON was understood to s a y dC was the cause of the . app T lication. 00 0 Lord G. SOMERSET suggested that ° lle sufficient. Leave of absence was then granted to the Kos , ,tiivft for a month. fron v O l ` Mr. BORTHWICK presented a petitionf t he „ hill and its neighbourhood, complaining °,, 00( 1. to „I" the lighting of the roads in that neighboa r ' st ion,,,, 1 / i ; Mr. AGLIONBY begged to put a ( I I ,: Ifri, t er. Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for tm vi bet r k• partment, of which he had given notice,. : burg i „"leo` l " 1841, there had been any executions Wo o 5' V , * tended with per s on a l v i o l ence , or whether ;17° had been commuted to t r anspo r t a tion? iv Sir J. GRAHAM said, since the chan'ites fordo ; fit . there had been, in 1838, three convic ti° , - 0 0 4 ,, e e 0c ° 0 accompanied with 'violence ; in 1839, oir . r etw,, 1840, thirteen convictio ns ; a ll o f which muted to transportation for life. In 1 ° thy' had not been made ; there had been snore viction, but no execution h a d t a k en Place' • THE TARIFF. pear e ipto Mr. HUTT asked wheth er , a s it 1 1 0 0 0 ,• tariff, the new timber dutie s were not t ° ° ration till Oct., 1843? fi,cv, tw •t Sir G. CLERK said there wer e Lo ~fart i' dOk7 l" one would continue till Oct., 1843. Wh en 5 01 ' tion would be made, 't o commence "` e that year. _____ -- Oi II given'r h R i O ch P n O toh L t iec l ye T , p A , , N s fs7R:oo:AjohiPrep chi ril . it tp e r cl l er ,ti t ,r 0 - h : vee Or ) t o C li K tan ro n s o e a t d o s b b riu y tr.,. recoutin e.hi, o . foto th e A' Or ei d'Er of eltirloV t i he Metioaors had be but ig to l. e M a lda e hM e T r u t r h n e p 2 ik 9 e th Con P im l issi p ° p ne l r e s at i tt o l ° l 6ce od l ::: I.2irrnoniel4egf:isitg:hlphythiteelhheristcAib.edi:in:Prhatvgloby;:hayrßhltpdoenlills:tsi parishes, i the sh e sC,Commthatissionerstheywould had p g i o r, ri o n . o ti: b u : f cl i r o l made by many of the par" 1 Sept. to t h e SeCre- Ge o.., t he for the Home Departm - ent is le l he Right gun' il e a ° I ith recommended r h a a t t p ersor t he different that r g i s s h s e h: uilad,.choriVeirtlin, : t r, 0 1 4 : 4113 0e f . the provisions of the Act of Pau' oro got tlr th deavour to obtain the consent of ra ts ' f ish° the rate-payers to the imposition of 11 0 01 11 thel purpose of lighting the roads. In 6: 01 1 ° c oo t the rates had been obtained, het ill I n t he reStive c$ they had been refused, and in o red li n ,j i° ; been left in darkness. This had bee n den ts ; 6- to much inconvenience, and of many accid e o pyigd bee recent case of murder, which was noly n c hicli I' II e bg of the public attention, and the details ef t " e 'l e tha p i , 0 given with more fullness than good l ev er lin, d ,'„ : l be e/I f prints, the escape of the supposed ma not huvAie of probability, been facilitated by the roads th, e " p i nt , lighted. The parties, who ought to bear ibbebionot the lighting these roads, were doubtless the „ d, and P IV the parishes through which the roads pass: sid i e g in 4 passengers, inasmuch as the parties, ryderived to neighbourhood of a great public road , did 'non se s e t e great advantage from the situation. ge_ io tiou, 00 pate any opposition whatever to the in t_r s v" ed to ettec_ i iti measure. The plan by which he pro' ) t u x the Act 0.0 object, was by applying the provisionS to the psfrto, 3d and 4th Will. IV., chapter 9° ' WO u r n- i° tlfr included in the Bill, making it colni? __ c pro w ,„, to light the road according to tu i T be en„, He proposed that inspectors `of the po or tp r ot 4 cred to call upon the overseers or . h , r ote W ll5 re be l 01 a rate for the purpose, and, in case h e yiols!' ,tr the parish should be indicted for (pond by rf, oi t I 1 lecb t#l law. The Hon. Member c onclu a __, in re eg f i lso leave to bring in a Bill for the better . u. jr „„ gl li „ te Metropolis. ~e ~,,,... • ..„. The SPEAKER inquired whether t he ._,_ w ow: lighting of turnpike roads in the neighbour°hood ° ter ..te had given notice in the public papers of u" `0 bring in the Bill ? n othing Mr. BORTHWICK said he had given. ~ to e. k ric than the usual notice on the Journals of the 6 pi n t u The SPEAKER said that, as the 13111 5 . ,_, publici one, e t L on 1 4 * e t hGeutzl couldeointe. notiNa and in ril)eett of his I t ibbi t ls o i cili:tpevruei Itiit g s t:i e o n t h i l ue. ° ,ri „, 13 : 00 e e; i I Mr. BORTHWICK said if the House ero 10 ~,,x g h itg lie th w e o p u r l The motion was then withdrawn. le r . CORONERS. proper notice. his motion for the flirr notic e '," Captain POLHILL moved, pursuant to , leave to brig in a Bill to empower county and !11,,,bt , ri Coroners to admit of bail in cases of matisurcr 4 The Hon. and Gallant Member mentioned 0.5.:.041:.! of the propriety of vesting in Coroners the pun',,fe. he lied asked for. the case of a man who hnn o l 0 . 0 . . i an imprisonment of seven months on a chaTie,_ A ;o o " slaughter against his brother ; and another. Pl'. ill C 1 the',! g Pu — bs '. O it oug , o t I b ' • ' too Leouveard pi's,: '.. et been t e sse° , ' th e le too", iall :.,,, , him 1 ig ib e .„ o tg ° s ei ‘• - kW; )ny oil , of iloti ~ i ts in t b o gbtl '.,,, It ] so.---M (1i t ll . ,'t in , .cticeAri# . pr . , , fO ,, :,•• v(Ti re ferre' t bel i ` Me. 3 ; it vi° ls " o o f lec . i. etl , II tte abet "15 %1e0., nrilyeit I t °i, ho r. Lion t hd keo,." t o - S. Meratr e '' et`' ,bei 1 111 D sat polo .At a-`7,' ards, all 6g th e l [ 'lin , ale Pi - I%i er to occ ti 4 , • mitt upon it- . .., rie pion ally Yr:j pO be ex i s at he (I , it Seer, b ..-atr >t believe 0 0 ,0 L A Goill' Pl f r oce, i ) the ha t , e v0,,0 i heAtl, P,s,iori",i : I t t n i t u t tratlFtlehirilesei:ooll:ll?::; '-dtrzo,,:t tough . A ti Ce 1 .7 : o r i n . e , , v s ofr i i 0 i N and 01 , 5 1 , e i° i 46 1 ' tr,, trali rie ce Wer( - , tIX".( 0 thro Nisi Whic th tt , 4 h7 ) , (l e Nit ] 11, dir ( '4 k4 Ili(' ~ Ivl "cvl 11i th rna if no, th( .~ t V~ ng, 1,11,A tlc 110, the 'c'ar. t'or in a of str u , ti) stat the t)ou Lo a Ho any 1 140 S lop c and the log turr the Wit}