The Sun. — London, England, 1831-02-23 00:00:00

ropolitan Commissiol line of the workings 'missions are, in trutl rage and emolument, I 'fortunate bankrupt as ,at there should be fie 'se should be Barrister that the Commissioner and two bares be barristers dent i sure , canro', or wi ee are left to ad with or themselves by ever, the question brougb ass of every kind--fo --to increasi of sittings late on from the enjoy' to my intention exteM I now propose for the content myself by re. hall, front t i me to time, misters residing in the at for the purpose, t°', " pectable solicitors, 31 returned M the Keeper e may select from them 2ommission which the 2e to time require. 1Y le Commissioner; bet' I propose that toper- I the country cases 011 Th ese cases being at , not more than 700 in •ous and comparatively am h a ppy to say , lover laving said thus inceh of bankruptcy, Ifol. subject, the moue • office, and those other administration of Propose, the n, that the ay advantage from 0, fu sters were paid Po': g of the suit ors' re. This mon e y tbel interest for their Oa lasters, tempted 11 South Sea Stock, °- Ts, six of then' weed& 'telY on th is the 3lasters His Lordship then ety seasures adopted with nts o f the ma,ters from Chancellor Northing'. vhen the Committee "t would be abolished:a'. is, and in comPlial, now . propose that t in Chancery sb 9ll ., b ,i e II be paid a sum ri e '"; ,cted an d pa id as Ora tion of exp,nces a°, ame time afford to emolument to the Pre ie advancement of tP" seep them from falli4 ' ino l d umen t s en joye both the Ma -ter 89 Lions to their salariet; a year °earl averge' y handsome alio , /ne of the Masters, he spoke with s ll re his clerk enjoyed 8:1 4 er these clerk s) 1. ; but be:diel aottA , among those fees, ogie ,ty money, which 9,.; -age for, it could uot that by which it els ght for justice, sal in to speak of it, ry name of a brit the Master. I wisb and the notorietY °. troy all its pernicioB' denounced be fore. ; , s the time of Sir:,,t° ornittee to inqu ire jay i. to of one of the iractice of taking ftfroi ust to the assertioom xisted), purely on P o Samuel, that the fit ' nation of Sir Sa quent y real ititte.,, frequently .01 made and • • anquarte inner that no sant n, e x ce pt on one oc vas requisite, and tho yards the fact caste °ha at this very nro i e nd ived fifty pounds , appeared that his eti, ar in additio n to t' legitimate soorcee.: gratuities ee3.4Cl fre 'or, the duty of th° take care that prar tbe in all. It 18 sore keep his tn°: , thus, but to take Or free from reprosel'; o one , because I W lt ell, ni self-interes t. vii " )gilled to me ddle () mom I am 0 11 trllos , ause I cannot hope • to 9 ears, to bring it i Lit it is the boun, n to begird himself fo ss noe94 ilities he may a obi mplishrnent o f in' j high can be fairly B'llo of abuses —if he °eel! t count thee*, but rests the responildbleoy consequences (lf ( 1 t a le right horse , 00 of y Part in' the O v rii ri , 'efore, 6 0 to support nle , 4 1 1 5 nay own boson) esi3O th e reflection. ttot as long as I s it ino t' herefore there 81'',10$e n o shale Cr 511$ fl ° said, as of the,bile s clean without,;bere n ucleanness. ',lto in m y effo m y rtroy I shall us e d t bo Parliament 01:000 ; these crying 1 ' l a te; rn efors I cootell of me that I 112/ hes l, o o tside of this ge,itorod it ? Why the ate i 1 sing ? No , he 9' expedition inosePtot ere I would sal..rt, 'll purposes of d iet, rt to protect the c b ' o ,l3 'ss quicker, 11'400 so to all. If be t ` i ,,r of some other sti l b ;01 any view•• , Whe t , e a ght that it soW.eted ter question con7o, receives this Pr9,o bie action attached 00 of difficult opera" 1041 ttorney who 1'9908 at of using e 9 P,, e bee, r Lordships n°7llear.) r a wile tions. tor 'romt the solici it will be Peec'e the to Avant-40i the on accoutit,,aoes. th tf 2, when it _' olo repays thi, passisg might not., ° I) 1 ' e sty. It 01" 0 ho t '. judicious 10.0 j thP, ate calliog, , 9 , at and a most eICeLo 11(1 the 111;10---' • F ed' they for hi' loge e client, Much _ M tge view, as Much odsoriog it of his vieel .0j however, coolers:0; of ortant Pe ; h ogs inlr, a , these aot say tn hey are • _I believe 1 40 1' are, gene'. „' the at' t of Men WI" 4 e)" WhO repr e s ent t h e came situation in the Courts of tt,4')o ; but what I wish to say is this, that the e y P,ttability of the solicitor is the only security possessed elieut for his abstinence from practices like those tt. ar e a l ways in his power. That fact of its being i Power therefore, in my opinion quite sufficient Ls t 'ht ' f' Y all measeres for putting an end to the system; although it may be proved, as indeed I believe it," he prov e d, t h at such tricks are seldom resorted to, t i t est be enough unless it be also proved, which it te 44 ,', t b e, that i t i s not i n th e power o f t h e so l ici t or to til a s k. , t ° them. I come now to the separatii si of the eti -ug trative an d j u di c i a l f unc ti o ns, and t o th e a tes tit t u t lo tl of viva voce examinations in the Mas- to til 2fliee f or t h e system o f i nterrogator i es, an d N it stelae s!, means to be adopted for the improvement of 1 6t c t ra neh of th e C our t o f E qu ity. I thi n k, th en , th a t Lo a 4B tars should henceforward sit in open Court, at such spi llsl° ti t s the ev en i ng as ma y b e agree d on ; a n d I am o f t it i l , l that such arrangements can be made with respect elliVensina with their attendance on your Lordships,.. 0 4 'lll t 0 , enable tots to carry that plan into effect with little T e onvenience to us or to them. I propose, there ee'c that three of the Masters in Chancery should sit their evening for the purpose of hearing exceptions to th e h e wn report s , anti that portion of business which at iii t ir e lent moment occupies so much of the time of the Wt, Courts toy s "*, but which, from its very nature, can el te :e More fitly determined by the Masters themselves; 6"ri that ar r a n g e me n t i s carried into e ff ect , I am Ifs:" that the number of appeals from decisions of th e 1 a -r , Will be red uce d t o th e p ro p or ti on o f 99 t o 100. If l) l r iglit in speculating on this result, and I believe I , - at will come t h e quest i on o f re d uc i ng t h e C ourt o f i6 p , tt i , e ,'''Y to i ts natura l an d anc i ent li m i ts o f two C our t s , ihe,4'`ch the business may be speedily and effectually dis hit, ° I, without the assistance of the Vice-Chancellor, feil l Y ti Other additi ona l Judg e; and then I hope will he tin e ' the declaration of Sir John Leach arid Mr. Can kb': In the celebrated debate on the subject of the ap ,olookßt of th e Vice-Chancellor—that it hail Judges Na g : t ° go on without such an appointment. I hold ' 4 tek„,,."ertle°w to h e p oss ibl e , an d I h o p e t o ma k e suc h 'nts in the course of the summer as will enable lett'il)Ret rid of the greater part of the arrear before the isitti C hancellor, while the Master of the Rolls has pre -4 Plan fo r th e d espatc h o f t h e arrear b e f ore t h e Vice \r,cellor. That second Judge--the Master of the Rolls Qh n ot name to your Lordships without paying my ''hos e of respect d ue t o his e xalt e d worth ; he is a Judge '''iti i - k 'elight it is to decide, whose quickness keeps pace los "'" learning, and who, in all that constitutes a great 'a' rqound lawyer, is equalled by no one, save . that . e t C ° 4l j t n 'ao, one fhs predecessors in office (Sir Ila tt e , l ' e ' with whom he is, to his honour, to he compared. "ith - ''er great aed important alteration which I propose 'ate ui rel iPect to th e M asters i s , t o re l ease th em f rom th e t o ee t ,,' t y of re v i ew i ng bill s o f costs , an d sen di ng th em at , - ", t he office of the Six Clerks. I postpone, however, orations t so: -P ' on the d e t a il s o f t his a n d s om e oth er p or e ls pl bseause they are as yet not fully f and becaule although the nature and extent 0 Mined nd the system of taxing costs, have b!•en . fully l i et a ---the arrangements to be substituted in lieu of At, ar e not yet fully digested. The proposition for of . recourse to viva rove examinations instead 44terr ogatories is, however, I am glad to say, uW have an d approved of.— (H ear, h ear. ) —l ti;, o " wished to give a Jury to assist the Masters, jtd" on th e i r d ec i s i on s h ou ld d epen d t h e issue to be !ri ti, 4 B in other Courts, and like as in other cases of Jury 1 111 ,.ti; b is ut I find so many difficulties in my way, there is • ° Pposition, so many conflicting interests are to be 4 is e - " e d , So many adverse claims to be settled, so many i.lt:lll.ie reasons ar:e advance!! why that change should not ''f st e---reasons too plausible in appearance fir me not t kl t6 t hat they m i g ht concea l somet hi ng w hi c h ought to ,:st4 hesitate, th oug h t h ey are , per h aps , not we ll ' 4 I 4 ' and I could prove the error lurking below them t i!y,, ,, uld bolt the bran from the meal ; yet fearing that m a i d conceal something, and wishing not in making I t rsp• ,', 1 % ' r ut to subject myself to the charge of rashness, I l 'tsr", ci tOt• the present to stop here, being willing to look o t° a more favourable time for making-the improve- , e tl ii:OPlete. There is no consummation, however, which '614 Wo re to be desired or more important than to in hllaiatei t he assistance of a Jury into this branch of the t 4 th ” rat ion of justice. That would put an end to el P e nee, and the system of dark . iicerrogatories, 41 iel a n ) anxious not to omit it, but, as I . have e the time is not yet come when all the difficul , a tila te t t l i ' e way can be aurmounted. The next point, 1 6 1 4 of to which I shall proceed is, the great ex t;4l fee s, and the vast expence of copy-money ; v et s t 'd that on all motions, and in all cases, these ale I,:ltitYfogrreat importance to the suitors. .For every matter, i t re tioj e . eveiy Master, copy-money . is dem , anded, fees hilt'ed, and, however disgraceful it may appear, n ohe done without them. To show your Lord t„"t4ti:t I do not speak without foundation, I shall refer C,, ',Port of the Commissioners who had to inquire iLYI, OI , - ,''ciart of Chancery. I find, then, to put one case, e,, 115 , that the fees of the Master's Officers were 2381. 7 tli>ste e ° ,, i the Clerk of the Court, 1041. ; gratuities and vi,"”eY amounted to 1321. In another case, my Lords, ole t , tU m a ttiount of this bill in which was 171., 111. was .11,N ch arged f or f ees. I n f act, I fi n d t h a t f ees an d 11 4 tte fo g y' t eo Y form t h e hulk of the expence o f a ll su it s . I hi si ; that thes e copy i ng c l er k s c h arge 6 s. Bd . per folio stationer would charge three . farthings, and all t atter stain is an unnecessary expence. But :ts t a a part y d oes not want the copies. " Good 1 11: 1‘1 ! C 'aYs, "do not trouble me with copies, I Ut be l T n ahL Good clerk, copy me na copies, I better without them. Kind Sir, Ido not Yn ' , l N But then comes the mischief, for e s , ' t copie s he taken nothing is done, which aW s tr r e ",' l 'iPti will say in Chancery is a very great re o ,,Y; 1 4 , - ;', f 'o the suitor would think if he could run You have an estate in Chancery, if you want e tail• lecae y ou °l the Court, you must take copies, or not on g ot ce i) i e Proceed. " Why should I (says a suitor) . ! li t he 2 , 5 en Ido not absolutely want them ? I have kul v e t e l ; e l g it i l l?al in my answer, my attorney made a ,, eopy, It o , t tilk s in the briefs for which I have paid." You, to il ' each , e l ° Pies' is the answer, " and must take them ei l °Rse t , -"Partment, or your suit will make no progress, sc tie e °me t o an end." I will suppose that there is fr om uet i"o held, the perties are called upon to re li,4`l f t ,: t he Master a bill of particulars, the clerks de- V p . Day t ' ll the bill is printed, the parties pay for that bill, e " Why," they say, " must we have i tt: ll :ls%. "It," says the Master, " that won't do, you Y, A e writt ''tt o . ' 4 (11 4 .. co copy ;" and when you have a ts . tritten . e0,114a paid your fee, you are provided like age (t to {'" the Court lend its authority to these gen , 'ha lend c's no—the sy s th 'lose tiemanas, Tle out tict uali at x'o more copies shall be charged than the C Z; e Ptrti ' ;,"' °d e, on whi c h i s f oun d e d t h e c l a i m f or a ll . 1 6 'ley, ' 0 Pay for w r i t t en cop i es. Th e or d er o f t h e 'br:jeth t 141. 11 sera‘l n° loose copies shall be paid for than one— from recollection, for I have not lately t„ t ss t '4 one for each bidder. Do I blame Curt 111 do not. I i m p u t e no bl ame to t h em , 1 1 1 4 j I, 4 qt a n att kno wn an d sanct i one d i t . The Master gl ans ‘ 4lll ing of sa l ary — i t i s t h e sys t em , t h ere f ore , the Pt thate---the M asters h a d not a f art hi ng o f sa l ary, 7tot which was voted to them in 1798, out of r k te ti i 4 ' l, of 600/. a year . Th ey were made to k il e '4 to tzi e c omes to taxi ng th e su i tors . I t may be p,eist,e,.3 t ees from t h e su i tors, to levy on them all t hae t , es of the proceedings ; it may be proper to ,xii,nYecle4uitors pay the Judge on the bench, ant al; Kh• t Oat ti of the Chancery Court—it in . ay fro butt tit the' suitors should he taxed ; all this I will ad. tLe „ I Contend that no more should be taken *l t tl),:c,ke, ,ofthe suitcr than goes to pay the ex ° p ay f .,, ° . ut t and tun Judge. He is obliged, li?we t ; l s s Y l, s, t,u much necessary writing, which is a 4 ,6„ li tlre" i' ll , unjust method of raising from the public ;te ll p ty ' tt at e id from the suitor three times, as much as th . one Master and the one Master's Clerk, Mt* necessary. I repeat again, that h U anY t„ e Master ; I blame the system. These, at lt{ F': v e il a i re the hulk of the changes . which I pro d a 1 4 "Lieh . 01 :11y shortly advert to the advantageous it 't t ire tt `ter o `""ik will take pl ace. We shall get then th s see 4 l ; v hedge of the cause; we shall get better I,:th a t i r oth ; e s hall get them quicker; we shall get at e'l4 g st we shall feel confid• ace in our Judges, arid 1 ,! 4 '0 14 „ 1 , reZ e t q Y justice; and, as a condition of all these . 1:1Rt th e "itY Lords, we shall get a great dim:- 1 t 4 11 4 , 1 , 11 ' , ti; e e e t P e uee ; so ;hat we shall make,. I hope, j t i ; t t. ve ethy l': of Chancery so rapid in its proceed . - t 4. (44, Pease with one of its Judges. 1 will tesoltsof cry briefly refer to the general and ulti t4si,oltik,ll4,ptpreeavtelriet it,olterations I pro Kos But before Ido another Subject. i e. I have on several s r ed to myself e th , it. aft er , as if had forgotten some ...laving sought for in vain I have now `" te, 1 41.. 4 will .1,, se, giv e h p ee back to that, as it is a subject w ip e ,n ve, great satisfaction in the city of 4i % g esti b t an t i ka I believe, one great improvement. • os.ellte o. .a gr eitt estates, as at present consti ttiott rit y of ()tree of expence—and for this I have Wised Lord Eldon, who has on more than one dissatisfaction with the present eye °th al "editor eln general chosen from among e Qoae _ ato generally, and having s great "n, are suppesed to be more anxious. to make as much, as possible of the estate.. They may be supposed also to regulate the expences in the best manner, and to understand the whole business. It is ob vious from their functions that much must depend on the choice of assignees, and, as a general principle, the person who has most interest in the bankrupt's property, and most concerned in winding up his accounts expeditiously, is a proper person to be chosen assignee. But the misfortune of this system is, that the assignee acts alone, and there is no check over him to whom much must he confided. I pro pose to add to the ordinary assignee one in whom the Court can confide. Take from that list of respectable persons, merchants and others, who are well acquainted with the affairs of the world, though they no longer devote there selves to active business ; I would take one assignee from those men, who are all known to he gentlemen of great ex perience, and who are now the special persons of the City of London. Many of them would do honour to any situ ation or any place—they are active men of business, of most respectable characters, of unsullied integrity, and would do honour even to the Bench itself. I have seen them in the box at Guildhall, and I know that it would often be in vain for the Judges to try causes wi,hout their assistance. Let, I say, a list of twenty-five or thirty of these gentlemen be formed after due deliberation, and let the Chief Justice at Guildhall, or the Chief Justice of the New Bankrupt Court, always appoint one of the gentlemen from this list as the assignee of the Court, to be a guide and a check on the oth(r assignee ; and let there be one to each Commission of Bankruptcy ; and that will, I think, give to the creditors of the bankrupt a good security that the estate will be properly managed. It will, per haps, astonish your Lordships to learn, that at present the amount of unclaimed dividends is not less than 250,000/. They ought to he divided : the last Act orders unclaimed dividends to be divided ; but sundry excuses are found to avoid complying with this part of the Act of Parliament. A great many persons would be glad to have their divi dends ; but they are too small sums for them to seek them, or they are at a distance ; and so, as I have stated, the amount of unclaimed dividends at present is not less than 250,0001. It happens, too, sometimes, that the assignees, who are in trade, fail themselves, after they have obtained possession- of the bankrupt's property. Even this morning a case of this kind came before me in the Court of Chancery, the gentleman having in a short time lost 81,000/., which would break half a dozen ordi nary men : he was an assignee to a bankrupt's estate, and though he is yet a rich man, your Lordships will see, when such an event occurs, in what difficulties it involves cases that are already complicated. The assignee has, I take, no business indeed to retain the property of the bankrupt estate in his own hands, he has no business to make a profit on that property—it is his business to divide it, and this will, I think, he accomplished by appointing the Court's assignee, a man en whom the Court ran place confidence. This is the outline of my plan, and its bene ficial results will be these :—lt will, I think, shorten, cheapen, and facilitate the business of the whole depart ment of bankruptcy. As to the expense, I will set be fore your Lordships one example of the diminution of ex pense which my plan will effect. I have calculated the expense, and it will be much less for more efficient work. In the first place, my Lords, we shall get rid of 70 places filled by gentlemen at considerable salaries, and we sub• stitute fur them only 10 places. I shill propose, too, that one conveyancing Master be added to the Court of Chan cery, in order to save it from th ,t stigma which is now thrown on it, of having to refer to a common convey ancer to ascertain if a title to an estate be good. At present, my Lords, when any question concerning a title comes before the Court, the Court is obliged to refer it to a conveyancer. I say that this is not fit and proper. I hold that the Court, which has especial cogni zance of such cases, is bound to say if the title be good. That is a high branch of the law, and the Court cannot plead ignorance for not performing this part of its duty. I remember, on one occasion, that there was a dispute be tween my excellent and Learned Friend, the Solicitor- General, and Lord Eldon, on a point of the kind, and the Solicitor-Generul, refusing to take the opinion of the Court, insisted on the question of title being referred to a • conveyancer, who had thus to decide, for a ten guinea fee, what the Court had to decide. I wish then to have a Conveyancing Master; and if it be supposed that twelve Masters are not . too many, or rather, 1 should say, ten, for the Master of the Rolls, and the Accountant-General, who are included in the number, cannot do any of the ordinary duties of the Masters ; but if twelve be not too many, and they have to examine evidence, and perform many other important duties, and if two Masters ought to be added, I shall propose that one of them be a convey ancer, and thus we shall cut off 70 offices, and have an increase of 11. We shall cut off 70 small offices, and we shall have all increase of 11 large ones. Your Lord ships will not suppose that these two descriptions of offices are the same. For a man who delights in patronage, who wishes to oblige his friends, 70 small offices are much more convenient than 11 large ones. fie can give away the 70 small ones among his friends; he can oblige a colleague with one; but he cannot, he dares not make a Judg e of a man who is incompetent ; he dares not go himself into a Court, over which he has placed an unfit person. At pre sent the persons who ore made. Judges are not made by favour; they are not obliged by the choice : it is their right, and God forbid that they should hold their office by any other title. I say they are not made as a favour ; they rather confer a favour by taking the office. By sub stituting officers of that description then for 70 small offices, I knock off from one of the Ministers of the Crown a great deal of patronage ; it will be a great diminution of patronage in the hands of the Crown, which, in a consti. tutional point of view, cannot lie unimportant. That will be a great benefit if no other good effects result from it ; hut I think delay will be abridged, decisions improved in their quality, and will be given with greater expedition, and the expence, that great and tangible evil, will be much diminished. The saving, in the first place, will be at least 6,000/. a year in the Secretary of Bankrupts' de partment, as that will be diminished from 9,000/. to 3,000/. In the whole bankruptcy department, the clear net saving will be 26,000/. a year. I do not include lu nacy, which is not now a subject of expence, and will only he as far as the new Board is concerned. There will then be a saving of 26,000/. in the bankruptcy depart ment. The saving in the Master's Office, and in the Re gister's Office,will be 20,000/. leaving an ample allowance for Clerks, Masters, and all that is necessary to the esta blishment. To this 46,000/ , 5,000/. must be added for sinecures, when those who now hold them cease to exist. To thiS also must be added 11,0001. for other sinecures which were given by Lord Thurlow to his son, and were afterwards held by his nephew, who is now their possessor. The sinecures held by the Rev. Mr. Thurlow amounted to between 9,0001. and 10,000/. a year. I know that these are vested interests, but I hope the owners of them may come to terms. Mr. Thurlow has long enjoyed his in come, and will not be averse, I am sure, to consider the circumstances of the time. I may, perhaps, be said to be hasty in these matters, and I may be blamed, as I have hem blamed for getting rid of the Registrar,:and for wish ing to abolish the Six Clerks. When I first took my seat in the Court of Chancery, I found a Master caine there of a morning, who was described to be always ready to give any information to the Court as to its practice, which must have been done by some curious method—l fancy by means of a speaking trumpet, or some such instru ment, fur he was sitting in Chancery-lane while I was sitting at Westminster. Although it was, there fore, a great innovation, I dispensed with the appear ance of the Master in Court of ii morning, and I do not find that the Court has yet needed his assistance. So it is said, that the Chief Registrar is an office of great importanee ; he keeps all the other Registrars in or der, and I have no doubt that this was done by Mrs. Eleanor Gwynn, commonly called Nell Gwynn, when she was a Registrar of the Court of Chancery, though, I suppose, none of the other Judges took any notice of it in Court, except, perhaps Lord Shaftesbury. The Patentee for making out Commissions of Bankruptcy, Ike that lady, had no business in the Court of Chancery. By the reform I propose, I deprive myself of great patronage, should I live long enough to enjoy it; and if the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench received 4,000/. a year fur his patronage, I might, perhaps, take some credit to myself for sacrificing so much patronage, without look ing to any consideration. I am aware, then, that the holder of the patent place I have alluded to has vested rights in it ; but if he should be very e x or bi tant in his de mands, let him not think himself very sure of the tenure by which he holds (Ace ; if lie aliould think that a sum equal to that which is given to aif a ft er a lif e of labour for his retiring salary , and if my tenure of effice is secure, I will net fail to grapple strait it : and that I shall go out there is no chance—(llear, hear)—for I am sure that I ant at present well fixed in it ; b ut if I should not go out or office I will grapple with this patent place ; I will let the patentee see that can exercise the power which the law confers on me. The fees for making all Commissions of Bankruptcy, wh ence the patentee derives his revenue the law gives me the power by a side wind to put an end to , b y preventing the seal being put to Commissions. If Ido than what then becomes of the patentee? I will not say that the patentee has not a vested right, but it is a joke to say that he bolds it on the same tenure as your Lordships hold your free hold estates, of which you cannot be deprived but by the failure of the seasons or the conquest of an enemy. The vested rights of this patentee depend on the clause of an Act of Parliament ; and he who holds the Great Seal can pia an end to them when he pleases. I think, then, that the holder of this place, if he attend to morality, to ho nourable f elings, or if he take counsel of common sense and pro - knee, will take into his consideration what I have now stated to your Lordships ; that he will consult his attorney, his counsel, his conveyancer, and take all those de=al steps necessary to make up his mind to accept the liberal r:ffer I shall make. From the abolition of this sinecure, then, we shall save 8,000/. a year out of the 11,000/., which, added to the 51,0001. I have already mentioned, will make (his Lordship mentioned another i'em, which we did not hear added) the whole saving amount at least to 73,000/. There is one officer about whom I must say one word, though, as I have at present a ;rent interest in it, I should be the last person to say any thing on the subject. If 'the - reform I propose should be carried into effect, it will cut off between 7,0001. and 8,000/. from the income of the Lord Ch inceilor. It will put an end to a large poi tion of the: income of that officer, and certainly I would not give up, nor would any man give up, the large profits of a professional income, to take an office which is held at pleasure, and may he taken away by a change in the Ministry, unless there be attached to the office a sufficient reward.—(hear, hear.) It would be at least proper, I think, that the Lord Chancellor of Eng land, the Chief Law Officer, should have a retiring salary equal to that enjoyed by the Chief Justice of the King's Bench, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, when the Lord Chancellor is liable to be dismissed, and the Lord Chief Justice can scarcely hold his office for less than 15 years, and is not obliged, like the Lord Chancellor, to keep up any great scale of expence. It is most unfair that the Lord Chancellor should not be as well provided for as these two Judges. Another point, my Lords, to which I must allude. Something, my Lords, must be done for the Appellate Ju risdiction. From the Island of Jersey there came in three years 6,000 appeals, white from the 76,000,000 inhabitants of India, there came only seven appeals in the year. This arose from the arrears of the Court of the Privy Council, and something must be done to make the machinery of the Ap pellate Jurisdiction mere perfect. It had at present no one good quality. It ought to be presided over by the highest officer—the very best Judge of the kingdom. Without a Judge of this description, the authority of such a Court would be obeyed, but it would not have any weight ; it would not be respected—it would not be, venerated—;t would not make decisions that would be followed hereafter. It is necessary, therefore, that the highest officer of the kingdom—the man of the greatest talent, should be placed at the head of the Appellate Jurisdiction. The 73,0001., my Lords, which we shall save is now paid by fees, which come out of the suitors' pockets. In one year there are about 1,200 bills of costs to be taxed ; to this may be added 750 cases that are not t tied, making on the whole 2,000 suitors, among whom the cost of 73.000/. is dis tributed. But your Lordships must also recollect, that, besides these fees, the attorneys swell the bills of costs by some charges of their own. I know that there are some attorneys who say no, but these must be extraordinary men—the only men i know who lay out their hard money without expecting any return for it, and these attorneys are so different from other men, not, as is generally sup posed, from being more greedy, but from baying. a ro mantic generosity, such as I have never heard of in any other men. The savings, then, will amount to 73,0001., and that now comes principally out of fees, which are enhanced by the charges of the attorney. The sum is distributed, indeed, unequally : some costs amounting to 18001. and others not above 181. But the diminution of expence is the least of these benefits. If the re fiarms I have recommended he carried into effect, they will reduce expences, and make equity as cheap or cheaper than law; they will promote dispatch, and they will make equity as certain as law; and they will make it, I hope, as satisfactory to the whole community. The project may, indeed, fail ; for projectors and inventors ate never mistrustful, and they find, or fancy benefits that no other persons can ; but if I fail, it will not be, my Lords, without having exerted all my talents and industry on this subject, and without having sought and obtained all the professional assistance I could command, both in the Court to which I belong, and in the other Courts. I might have had more advice, my Lords; I might have moved your Lordships to appoint a Com mittee; I might have got a Commission to inquire fur the asking ; to that Commission, or to that Committee, I might have referred my ideas ; and after months had elapsed, when the long vacation had passed, and the next Session had arrived, a report would be made—a discussion would ensue—the report would be torn in pieces by pam ph'et after pamphlet—no measure would be founded on it —no good would come of it—and we should find all our labours thrown away, and the report and the inquiry would he stifled under conflicting opinions. I thought, my Lords, that the course more fitting for me to take in the p esent circumstances was, first to judge of the whole matter myself—to - make myself master of all its hearings —to form ray own Opinions and my own plans—and, hav ing matured those opinions, and drawn up an outline of my plan, I sent it to three bodies of learned professional gentlemen, the Judges of the Common Law, the Masters in Chancery, and the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Court of Chancery in 1826 ; anti I requested them to examine the plans; and I stated, that I was anxious that they should sift them, and point out any opinion which might seem to them to he erroneous; for, though I knew that I had well and maturely weighed my own opinions, I wished to learn by what ar guments they could be met, and to what objections they were liable. These gentlemen met day after day ; they conferred together ; they did as I wished—they examined tile plan ; they tore to pieces, to rags, to tatters, the ideas I laid before them. By this I got at the truth ; by this I corrected many defects ; and aided by their experience and their sound and deliberate judgment, the measure was subjected to a more severe and rigid scrutiny than per haps any measure before was ever subjected to; for the bodies to which I submitted it have different interests, and are in the habit of viewing things tinder different aspects. From their examination I have derived far greater satisfaction than I could expect ; and I hope it may he found equally to satisfy your Lordships. It now, my Lords, only remains for your Lordships to perform your duty, and to you I commit the measure which I have prepared. My Lords, I entertain great respect for the Court of Chancery, knowing what it has in it of good ; and therefore it is natural that I should attempt to put away the abuses from it, and to cleanse it from the weeds which may have grown around it ; and in sweeping away abuses and in clearing away weeds, restoring and retaining all that was originally good, and w as a d a pted to the cir cumstances of the times under which it was established, reforming only those parts of it which the altered state of the circumstances under which we live require to be reformed to adapt it to them ; and by so re forming and purifying it, make it adequate and fit to perform that duty it was originally and is now in tended to perform, I have omitted till now to defend myself against one charge. I may, for these propositions of reform, be called an innovator and an enemy to the institutions of the country. Do you believe him, my Lords, to be au enemy to an institution who found it covered with moss and weeds, and labours to cleanse it and render it bright and beautiful ? Do you believe him to be an enemy, who, sensible both of the merits and defects of an institution, is anxious to show those merits, and not blind to its defects? Do you call that man an enemy to his country who is firmly resolved to resist the putting of any hostile foot on its shores, who is determined to die in the last ditch rather thou see the smallest of its rights sa crificed ? Do you call that man an enemy to his country who exerts all his power to crush conseleatms, and root out rel'els from her soil, and put an end to those conspira cies by which her peace is endangered? Do you, my Lords, call that man au enemy to the Constitution and the insti tutions of the country who watches the progress of the times, and notices what those institutions have congenial to age, hut alien to it, and who, noticing that, would root out the defects, and purge them of the dross, that the noble minerals d m if ay r, tak u n w e mi a l l d l t n h o ei t r , a n d i t , ni L ra o b rd le s, qu c a a l l i i ti s c u s a chr a neither, my Lard s , w ill you call hi m an tna r n en a t u ? eneiny, enemy to our institutions wl.O endeavours to clear them from those defects which reader them unsightly, and are certain to produce dissatisfaction in the community. If he be an enemy who endeavours in time to correct abuses—if be be an enemy to those institutions who wishes to make them more worthy of attachment— if he be hostile to the country who strives to introduce measures of moderate improvement —to that charge I pl ea d guilty. Be it Parliamentary R e f orm —b e it re trenchment, or be it abuses in the administration of justice, it) all the departments my feeble attempts are all directed 1)v the only hostility I can feel, or that I ever did feel, to the institutions of the country—the hostility of desiring to make them perfect. My Lords, I present to your Lordships the first Bill I have mentioned. Lord LYNDHURST said that in most of the state ments of his Noble Friend he concurred ; but he wished to ask Lim when he intended to bring in the other Bills, and at what period he meant to forward them? The LORD CHANCELLOR was understood to say, that the two other Balls should lie laid Ott their Lordships' table on Friday, and that on Monday lie should be pre pared to say what course he meant to pursue. Adjourned at a Quarter-past Nine o'clock. HO USE OF COMMONS, FEnnu4RY In consequence of there being ballots for Election Com mittees to try the petitions presented agar the returns of Alenlets for Oxford, Taunton, and Carrickfergus, the gallery was not opened until after Five o'clock. After several petitions bad been presented on various subjects, and some private Bills forwarded a stage, CA RRICKFE RG US PETITION. Sir IL INGLIS brought up the report of the Com mittee appointed to examine and pronounce upon the gig nitures to the petition against the return of Lord A. and the report declaring that fourteen out of the thirty A ignatures were forgeries, and had been forged by J. M. Eccleston and another, the Hon. Member moved a resolu tion of the House to the same effect. After a few words from Lord ALTHORP, Sir R. IN-. Grim, Sir R. PEEL, and Mr. WyNis, the discussion was adjourned to this day fortnight. EMIGRATION. - Lord HOWICK said, the transfer of a part of our su perabundant labourers to the colonies would be beneficial to all parties; to the labourer here, by diminishing the overwhelming competition from which he now suffered severely—to the settler there, by affording him the means of more fully cultivating the land he occupied—and to lioth this country and the colony, by relieving much of the :istress now existing in the former, and by adding to the productive industry of the latter. The mode he proposed to adopt in effecting that transfer wets shortly this. He proposed by his Bill to empower the Crown to appoint Commissioners for the purpose of superintending the busi ness of emigration, and regulating its details, which were now altogether neglected, or left almost wholly to the operation of chance. It would be the business of these Commissioners to give to the emigrants ad vice and assistance, and to put them in the best way of getting employment in the colony. I❑ proposing this, he did not mean that any expence should be thrown on tile general income of the country—it was his intention that individuals or parishes should bear the expense thus in curred. He proposed, therefore, that with the consent of two-thirds -of the inhabitants of a parish, the overseers should be at liberty to enter into contracts with individuals who wished to emigrate. Of course this part of the Pili could not extend to Ireland, where there were no parish officers and no parochial rates, and he acknowledged that on this point his Bill was defective; but he trusted that the deficiency would be in some measure supplied by giving to individuals the power of making contracts. Ile would, however, take that opportunity of observing, that a Bill for the purpose of enabling persons in Ireland to make these contracts for emigration ought to be passed, in order to give the measure its best and most extended operation. In consideration of the facility for emigration which he thus intended to give, he proposed that the pau pers, in the event of their failure in the colonies (a failure that, kens the nature of the circumstances, could only be attributed to themselves) should waive all claim to relief upon their return• to this country. There were at this moment twenty millions of acres of disposable Lind in our North American colonies. Ample means of employment would be afforded to the labourer in the cultivation and improvement of such an immense tract of country. The next thing, therefore, to be considered, was the expense of carrying the scheme of emigration into effect. The passage of a man, his wife, and two children, it had been estimated, would cost 661. Now the expense of maintaining such a family in England was, at the lowest calculation, 25/. a year. For much less, therefore, than the parochial ex penditure, this country could relieve itself of a great arid growing burden. He had made these statements upon the supposition that-it woul-1 be necessary to establish the pau pers on the Crown lands but he did not believe that ne cessity would ever occur ; for he believed that the means of labour could be easily found elsewhere, and the labourer would have the most easy opportunity of ameliorating his own condition—an advantage which, derived as it would be from his own, would be a greater benefit than if it were bestowed on him as a boon. Upon this part of the subject he should beg leave to refer to the evidence given before the Committee by Mr. Hamilton, in 1827, when that gentleman stated that the number of persons who had emigrated to Canada in the then last year amounted to 10,000. That number, however, was absorbed speedily; for though Mr. Hamilton thought that emigration carried on at that rate would be a great evil, it seemed that no less than twenty-eight thousand landed at Quebec in 1829, 18:30 ; and the Quebec Gazette stated that the " numbers who had arrived last season were now comfortably esta blished and provided for." A letter from the agents to the Canada Company which he had seen, contained statements to the same effect. All that the Commissioners would have to guard against would be a temporaty excess of la haul., if the emigration was conducted on a great national scale ; but against that evil their care and caution must pro vide. The Commissioners might employ the labourers on their arrival i❑ public works, in order not to throw them at once on the general marker. Taking wages at 2s. 6d. a-day, a man would earn 39/. a-year. The Government only claimed the merit of having adopted the ideas of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had so long and perseveringly urged on the country the consideration of the subject. The Noble Lord concluded by moving for " leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate voluntary Emigration to his Majesty's Possessions Abroad." Mr. SCHONS%VAR should give his support to the pro position of the Noble Lord. Sir G. MURRAY believed that this was the best mode of relieving the distress at home. There was, however, one feature in the plan proposed to which he much ob jected; he meant the appointment of Commissioners to manage the system of emigration. The first objection he had to their appointment was, that Commissioners resident here ought not to have the power of allocating lands ; and his second objection, that they ought not to have the power of directing details, which might better be entrusted to per sons livin g in the colonies. While the subject was under his consideration, he looked out for a man who might be trusted to make the necessary inquiries, and be selected Mr. Rich ards, whom accident had made him acquainted with, and who in every possible respect, seemed calculated to discharge such a duty with the utmost efficiency. That gentleman had resided for years in America, and had besides been em ployed in the business of valuing and settling lands there. On that gent'eman's integrity he felt be could as much rely as on his talent and experience. To him, therefore, was entrusted the task of examining into the matter. That gentleman had now probibly made his report, for it had not been made when he (Sir G. Murray) left office. The plan he intended to have acted upon was this—that no thing should be done that appeared like holding out encou ragement in a pecuniary point of view, or giving a bounty upon emigration, but that thosa who voluntarily wished to emigrate, or whom their landlords wished to quit their estates, or who were willing to go out with any humane soci e y, should open a communication with the Colonial Office, and should have every facility afforded for ending out th e ir way to the Colonies. He intended to have established at certain ports of the United Kingdom, agents, whom, he would have selected from the half-pay Lieu- ' less nits r e sident there, and who shouhi have been the in termediate agents between the shipowners and the emi grants. There would have been in that no further ex pence, but a slight increase on the half-pay of the gentle- That was the wh o l e sys t em , so f ar men thus employed. as he contemplated it at the time. The power of the agents on the land granting departments in the, colonies should have been regulated—they should have been obliged to make surveys of the grounds, and to give directions etoooling the emigrants to proceed to their settlements and enter on the possession of them. He thought the prin ciple of interfering too much was quite as bad, if not worse, than that of interfering too little ; and he believed, that when Government interfered too much in matters of this kind, they were generally guilty of much mismanage ment. He had, therefore, avoided that error as much as possible. That was the b as i s o f t h e p l an h e contemplated carry i ng into effect. m e . TENNANT, impressed with a sense of the evils of a superabundant population, was still snore convinced or the necess ity that the country should not rush into the evils of an excessive taxation. The measure before the House would produce an increase of taxation in this over burtheneul nation, of which the House seemed to have no conception. lie wished to know what was intended by the Noble Lord, respecting_ the location of the emigrants under his Act, upon their a rr i va l i n t h e colony .' Ids (Mr. , Tennant) had himself considered the subject of colonize lion, and the House would allow the measure of the Noble Lord to stand over, until lie (Mr. Tennant) should be able to l a y before them a brief statement of what he conceived to be the sound principl es of emigration. Mr. GRATTAN objected to the principle of the Bill, But as he still hoped that good might, perhaps lie effected by t h e Bill, he would not oppose it. Lord ALTIIORP reminded the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that his Noble Friend had explained t at the Bill was perhaps faulty in one respect, which was that it would not apply to Ireland. As there was in that country abundant room for improvement, it was the inten tion of his 'Majesty's Ministers to employ tile people in ef fecting the most practicable improvements within the country itself. Time plan of his Noble Friend had been misunderstood by the Bight Hon. Baronet oppasite. It was not intended to have high paid Commissioners to c,..ny t h e provisions of the Bill into effect.--( Hear.) It had also been objected that the granting of lands to emigrants wmot injudicious, and had produced ill effects. Pet the objection did not apply to the measure of his Noble'Friend, whose object was to supply the colonies with the labUur in which they were at present defieient. A's time supply of labour in the colonies was inferior to the demand, whilst on the con trary the supply was superior to the demand at home, it was the object of his Noble Friend's 11111 to increase the supply of labour when it wes :r.le.flleient for the demand, and to diminish it at home where the redundancy was an acknowledged evil. He contended that the immediate expense would be no more than the anopunt of three years' support of the poor by the parisl , Coless the pressure of t ; on e nt v‘a p s, o h o lei r nn l d a tel ia r : sptalea•erloeh,:ri original in should stitution did not see bow it was possible to improve their administration.—(Hear, hear.)— tpiolanceodf in nthtoisele same anus. would be able to administer them according to their ori einal principles. II wing given bi 4 attention to the Bill of his Noble Friend, he had, upon the fullest consideration, resolved to support it. Sir GEORGE MURRAY explained. Air. SADLER said, that there were no terms which (Mr. Sadler) had at command, that could express his ohjection to the principle of the proposed measure. lie halieved that it would give no relief; but that it would rafter increase the miseries which it was expected to alle viate. Was it to be expected, that the promises of pledges o f the present Government to relieve the distresses of the nation would be realised, when they now found it neces , aary, after all, to come forwald with a plan to send 'away e portion of the people? And what portion was it pro ' l eveed to part with? Was it the aged, the decrepit, the helpless? No; but the most useful of the whole po pulation—that part, of which no portion, at any period of our history, has been ever superfluous.—(Hear.)— Why should they not first cultivate the thirty millions of waste land that are enclosed within the British shores.— (Hear, hear.) Why send them to people the desert of mother land, while there remained deserts to be cultivated et home?—(Hear, bear.) lie referred to the cowlitien of the Flemish population, which amounted to three times the proportion of the British. The former amounted to 700 persons to the square mile, or about one to the acre ; whereas the population of England was no more than about 270 to the square mile. But if distress existed, and was increasing, under the very circumstances which would naturally diminish it—he meant, under an increase of numbers, by which alone the fertility of the soil, and the proportion of production could be increased—he would ask, was it sa`e policy to diminish the productive part of the population ? He repeated, that it was a mis take to suppose that part of the population superfluous.— A Committee of that House had come to the complaisant vonelmion, that the people were redundant—that the super fluity ;was irremediable—and that rank and power were exempted from investigating further the causes of dis ssess, and from attempting to alleviate it. Whereas, if there be. difficulties in the way of that alleviation, it was their indispensable duty to grapple with them ; or, if the relief was easy, to undertake it without delay. In the evidence before that Committee, it was shown that there exiatsd no redundancy in the mat ket of Ipbour ; he disliked to use the degrading term, though he was compelled to do so in conformity with the phraseology of the day. The first witness called was very competent to answer the question. Being asked whether, in his parish there was a redundancy of labour, he replied, that in summer and harvest, labour was extremely scarce; but in the wirier it was sufficiently attendant. Therefore, if the Noble Lord would carry his principle of the equalise_ tion of labour into effset, he must either change the sea sons, or there would be a redundancy every winter. But would it not be the more natural way to provide winter employment and subsistense for the people whose labour the country would peel in summer ? It would also he less expensive than emigration. If that Bill were carried into effect, it would introduce a new system of morals as well as of political economy, and the word patriotism would he abolished from the, list of virtues.—(No, no.) He had paid much attention to the subject—and he said so without ostentation. But he would not trespass on the House, as it did not seem inclined to hear him.— (Hear, hear.)—That man must knew little of the history of colonization who did not know that misery was inse parable from colonization.—(Hear.)—He did not wish to be misunderstood. He would not throw impediments in the way of emigration.—(Hear.)—Frown all the accounts which had been received in this country front emigrants, left no doubts on Oe minds of those whom they reached, that the distress was greater abroad than at home, and that they would have ben infinitely better off if they had never left the land of their nativity. It had been said by some lion. Members that the West India intersst was at the present moment suffering under the pressure of distress. Now, if the relief for this country front the effects of sus perabundance of labour, anti that the mute cause had pro duced similar effects in the West Indies, then, according to that argument, the best course for the West India , planters would be to send off some of their people to Africa. It was really no longer to be endured that those who took a part in the discussions of the Legislature should continue to lead mankind as if they were nothing better than beasts of burden. Political arithmeticians had, as it were, by a negative series, made out men to he worse than nothing, and contended that it would be a great political object to get rid of them.— There could not be the slightest doubt the condition of the labouring. classes was rapidly deteriorating, and the means of providing for them profitable improvement rapidly passing away. How could it be otherwise, when of set purpose many of the Aets passed its that House were di rected to that object alone—he did not mean to say inten tionally, but the effect eas as complete and perfect as if the insidious desien had been at all times present in tl.e minds of the Legislators. To the plan of the Noble Lord opposite he could certainly not give his support, for be thought it certain to lead to expence, calculated to wound the feelings of the people, and likely, altogether, to defeat the objects which he h .d in view. Mr. F. BARING denied that there was any thing cruel in the plan of his Noble Friend, and he entertained not the slightest doubt that it would lead to beneficial results. Air. WARBURTON observed that it had been calcu lated that the annual increase of the population of the United Kingdom amounted to 200,000 souls. Did any man imagine that a forced emigration could be carried on to any thing like that extent. The emigration to Canada could not amount to more than 24,000 annually, and he conceived it to be perfectly vain for any man to talk of a plan of emigration which did nPt extend the length of 200,000 persons every year. Mr. BARING was of opinion that upon the solution of this question depended, in a great measure, the happi ness of this country and the welfare of its agricultural labourers. He agreed that the House ought to be vers , careful how it lent itself to visionary schemes ; yet he did hope that the House would bestow its most serious atten tion upon the investigation of so momentous a question. He had listened to the Hon. Member for Newark with that attention which the earnestness of the Hon. Mt mbar always commanded, at least from bins. The Hon. Mem ber (Mr. Sadler) had told them, like t;ie Hon, Member for St. Alban's (Mr. Tennant), that he had an excellent and infallible scheme in his pocket ; and yet the Hun. Member had sitten down without condescending to emmounictre it. Now he could not help regretting that the Hon. Member had not trespassed upon the House jo. , t five minutes longer, in order to impart this scheme to them.—(Hear, and laughter.) As it was, he could find nothin g but declamation in the speech of th e H on . Mem ber for Newark —( Hear, hear.) Far be ii from him to deny that distress existesl lint hi, would venture to say, th it since the war,---or rather since the strugeles which had been caused by the turrency,—there had beeß 7„o pe riod in which there had been manifested st!.;:h an improve ment in the agricultural, the m?.n - ,,facturing, and the com mercial interests of the country as at the present moment, The fact, however, was that labour was superabundant in this country, and herein consisted their chief difficulty. The Hon. Member for Newark had, ha knew, denied this, but let him entreat the Hon. Member to give some reasons for, his denial,—to speak in a language that was to be under stood, and nut to dee!aim so much about the ennrse of human nature --(Hear, and laughter.) Let !inn put to the Hon. Member fur Newai k this aimple fact,—where could there be a more con7incing proof of the super abundance of labour trim That when our farmers had applietl deb, - ,;,r to every work in which labour could h., used, they were still com pelled to turn lahourevs ttpon the roads, tar into gravel pits ? He would ask the Hon. Member fcr Newark wlc,Aliek it would not be leis revolting to humanity to carry out our superabundant labourers, as this Bill proposed to do, to a land where they we, , ,;id get employment and sub. sistence, than to employ them as they hid been Irvc.ly em ployed by over,eera in several parts of tha country ? The only real way to provide a remedy fair the evil which confessedly existed in this etas, was to see if you could giYt.• some valucto 1a1.,,0ur. The m.rket for labour was glutted at the pro-ent moment. He was well acqoaintcd %i•ith the Cmadas, and he was opinion that they were quite healthy, generally speaking. There w..ae many parts of Es.ex worse than any of the unhealthy portions of the Canada,. By atllirding ilia,. me ins to our distress,. I population to te movc to a country where thoy would find proper value f. 0,7 labour, by doing that, they would confer a goiter benefit upon the pour of this country thaA by all the con tributions which it was possible. fur them to make to einstitutions N a 'i r u k had sp o k en o f t h k: cu ltiv a ti on tbe relief of the poor. The • Hun,ri 0: waste lands at home, as a niean for affprding relief to our labouring poor ; but he (Mr. Baring) would ask, where were the SQ,POD.,P,W.of acres of waste land of which the Hon. Al : ember had spoken ? He wished to state one fact to the House, as illustrative to the !ertility of the land in Canada. Land was known in Canada to produceBs I.,ushels, of wheat per acre, which fur ten yeare had Ikea under incessant crops of wheat, and where the stumps of e,e trees which had been cleared away were still visible. That was a refutation of the statement with regard to the s'erility of land in Canada. Fut it was said, that if thi , system of emigr a ti on was t tl, sirable thi ng, w h y s h ou ld we not leave it to it se lf ? The obvious ans wer was , th at in the first place, the poor people did not k now o f t h e renefits which they would reap from emigratio n ; and. ill the second place, even if they were aware of the bene ficial consequences which would attend their emigrating t a country like Canada, they had not the 11 , r i n of gai n th ere . It was to supply them with such means that the present commission was proposed. lle (Mr. Thr ng) Lew several parishes where a superabundance. of !bon rrs had existed, and where relief had been afforded by athip!- log a plan of emigration. The way in which the thin;; was done was this—the leading persons in the palish called the people together, explained to them the lon-fits which would arise from the emigration of a certain por tion of them, and gave them the option of going out if they liked to do so. There was no coercion used, tlx • flier was accepted by several, and the most bt neticial re o,lts followed from such emigration. It was a curious fact how very small an excess of labour was required in a strict to produce there a great depreciation of labour in e merket. That fist would appear from the fidlow ing statement:—ln the county of Sussex the popu lation amounted to 233,000, and the wales in that population, from the age of fifteen to sixty, were ,-,0,000. Now if they took off the population of such ol:ices as Brighton, and substracted also tiee artisans in towns who were pretty well off, the male agricultural ie.pulation, from the age of 15 to 50, employed in agri culture slid not exceed 25,000. Now lie felt roniVient that the superabundance or excess of that population be o.td the labour was not more than one-fourth. He might fairly state the number, the removal of whom would no s ore labour to its proper value there, at 6,250, and that demonstrated clearly the small excess which was requited to produce a depreciation of labour. It should be recol lected, too, that the county of Sussex was that county int England which was in the worst state as regarded the su perabundance of agricultural labour. The amount, it ap iwared, which it would be necessary to remove in tin' county of Dorset, to afford a similar relief, was only 1,250/. These were strong facts in proof of the good effects which might be expected from a well-regulated system of emigration. He was of opinion that at all events the"- were lound to look at the case with calmness and delibe ration, and that they should endeavour to see whether great Fo li c ( might not be afforded to the country in the manner in which it was now proposed to afford it. Mr. SLANEY said that the question was, whether this Bill might not be the means of remedying an admitted evil, at least to some extent? The question was net as to a general redundancy of population in this country, but as to whether they could not lay their finger upon parishes and districts in this country in which there was a greater number of labourers than could find employment or obtaits independent wages. That such was the case in cer- Lin districts in the southern counties had been abundunt4 Droved by the reports of Committees of that Houno year after year. A general enclosure act had been often called for in that House, and he regretted greatly that one had not been passed.—(Hear, hear.) He was confident that the measure proposed by the Noble Lord was calculated to, facilitate the means for the people of this country for going; out to a country where they would get a proper value for t . teir labour, and he should give it his support. Sir EDWARD SUGDEN did not rise to oppose the motion; for though he agreed with the Hon. 'Member for Bridport that such a measure would not afford great. general relief, yet as it might afford some relief, he shouldi support any proposition for that purpose. He was. wartn friend to emigration conducted upon proper prin ciples. He concurred, however, with the Hon. Member for Bridport, in thinking that this was a forced measure of emigration—he did not use the word " forced' in the sense of compulsory, but he meant to say that the pro posed measure went to force emigration as you would force grapes in a hothouse. It did so by holding out a prem4sm to the people to emigrate. The scheme of the Noble would never repay the thousandth part of a shillin , t vanced, and whatever vacuum it made would soon are filled up again. Mr. BENETT thought that the taxes whi.lll, premed upon productive industry ought to be removed, and do mestic affairs better attended to before emigration waL thought of. Mr. W. WHITMORE felt convinced that the poor !aws. could not be ameliorated till 'Some such inemure a that now proposed was introduced. Mr. HUNT had listened with the_ greatest atti..ntion to the debate. The. question was Qx the greatest import ance, but it was one which he had never expected to have discussed in that House. He was cane who, out of that House, had always treated the subject with derision, not to say disgust; but since he had heard the dis. cussion in that House, he felt that it was one of the greatest importance which could be taken into consi deration. Every body who had spoken that night was a mere theorist except the lion. Member for Wiltshire. and he was a practical man, a large land-owner, and a farmer; and he (Mr. Hunt) agreed with him that there was not any redundancy of population. The evils ar cs , from a want of capital in the cultivators of land. Tuts, away the taxes that pressed upon the lauded ir..etick, and establish a commutation of tithes, and there would- he no. redundancy of population. The time, however, was gota' by IT a commutation of tithes, and nothing but then abolition would effect any good.—(Hear, hear.)—H'- disapproved of the plan of home colonization, as stitch he did of that of ti reign colonization. ientlrtnen talked of colonizing Hounslow-heath and Dartmoor,, toed they might just as well talk of coloniz'ng the top,, tp4. St_ Psure. There was good land enough in elth's , l4 - 41, if there was any remunerating pt ice for the pi 11 1 „ was not such a Goth or Vandal as to rore'.e.tnet the use of improved machinery, but he knew well t'.iat where thrash. ing machines had been destroyed, in those porishrs the. , farmers had not a sufficient number of men to flutist' out the corn to supply the mi:rket, though prior to the de-. struction of the machines there had been a surplus popula tion. The scheme of the Noble Lord was one of the most preposterous he had ever heard of. Mortgage t4e, poor rates ! In God's name did not the Noble Lord know. what state the poor laws were in ? Why they were no* worth ttiree years' purchase. The Hon. Member for Ca/_ lington had said, that the surplus popnlation existed ors).,. in the southern counties, and that it was o n ly them counties that the poi r se driven I v l "W p r 'nass to com mit acts of insubordination. Wait the - 1-lou.e to he told that this existed only °te su " * :.sern counties ? Why, it existed in the wanuitto metropolis itself. "arinz distilets, and even in the 1 . - le had been informed in the lobby of th.it Ilin;se, by the overseer of St. Leonard's, of tie distressed state of the poor in that parish, and he know that in Birmingham the poor were employed to wheel heavy harrows of sand up hill, making a distance of eighteen miles, for one shilling. This aroFe from the ex cess of taxation. In Essex, the Hon. Member for that county had stated that some of the test lands were not half cultivated. In such a stage of things, were they to relieve the poor by such a . measure as that now proposed to the House by the Noble Lord ? lie would divide the House again o,ad again, before such a meanie as that of rnorgag 'Lg the poor -rates should be adopted. Though those who took the part which he did had once heen decried, and the terms of swinish multitude and similar words of reproach bad been east upon them, he was happy at length to see a growing disposition to listen to the poor, when at least taxes were to lie leivied; but when petitions were pre , ented it was quite. the reverse.—(Cries of " N0,.n0 ")—He knew this to be the fact. He hail been down to the House for .. week to present petitions, without finding an opportu nity, and the time - silotteil to their reception was not suffi cient. Tat land had been raised three-fold in rent, and yet tbe rate of wages had not been raised in proportion, and it was the first duty of the House to preveist labourers being paid out of the poor-rates. If the Noble Lord's scheme took effect, farmers would not let their licit men emigrate, and none would go but purrs and theworst, pints of the population. Recently 150 persons had been sent out front on:. parish to New York, hut they would not let them land. They had been obliged to put again to Nea, and had never been heard of snore Ile believed that the Noble Lord's plan would lead to a great deal of emi gration of this description. Mr. BROWNLOW supporttoi the Ml'. He described the population of Ireland to be in a state of absolute vstion, and he was therefore surprised to hear Hon. Mem bers deny that there was any redundancy of population. The poor would flock front Ireland to England to fill up the vacuum vi hich the plan might produce, and he thought the measure ought to .z.tend to Ireland. Mr. BRISCOE rose, but amidst a coughing which ren dered him inaudible. He entreated the attention of the House for a few momeots.—(Coughing.) Those Mm hers who had coughs had better stay at home.—(Continued coughing, and laughing.) There was a redundancy of po pudation, :and it was a problem how to employ the poor. With respect to the question of colonization, it wholly de. !Tr.:led upon the question of its details.—(Coughing.) No consideration should induce him to sit down till lie met t oi :: with patient and re s p ec tf u l attent i on . —(A l aug h.) H . ,- would move an adjournm e nt. Th e Hun. Member c nued for some time, but the noise and cries of question" prevented our hearing him. Member for Preston (Mr. Hunt) with ..c1 by the Hon. put u. contrasted the tours: HOWICK replied. He