The Sun. — London, England, 1831-10-05 00:00:00

• been greatly overlooked ; a due balance of power and a just proportion of influence ought to have been pre teemed in the Commons' House of Parliament, which are absolutely necessary, not only for the welfare and pros perity of the country, but for the safety and existence of the Constitution. Here, my Lords, let me state one of the most insuperable objections I feel to this measure. I have alieedy said that I am willing to go the length of g iving Members to large manufacturing towns—they have separate local interests; but I am by no means ptepared to give my consent to that part of the Bill which gives new representatives to places anti districts which have no separate local interests, and whose interests I defy any man to skew me have not been duly represented and fairly pro tected in the present state of the representation. I refer to such places as Woolwich, Deptford, Greenwich, the Tower Hamlets, Blarylebone, and Finsbury.--(Cheers.) My opinions are not new---I have long entertained them, after the most mature reflection. I declared myself a lie- former when first I entered your Lordships' House, and I am a Reformer still ; but I maintain that the opinion I have just stated would he aupported by nine-tenths of the bankers, merchants, and tradesmen of this great eP..y. Do we not all know, without their evidence, that the preva lence of political excitement at the return of a general election has always materially tended to reduce their wealth end injure their prosperity?--(Cheers.) If we pee this Bill it is my firm belief that the state of the oily of Lon don would soon resemble the melan'ch'oly condition of Paris, where the population is kept in a constant state of ferment and agitation.—(Hear.) In that unhappy capitals total star netion of trade and commerce prevails, and I fer vently implore your Lordships to have the PAernness and th e wisdom to save the metropolis of Great Britain from this great calamity. I feel that I hwe already occupied too touch time, but there is one point more to which I must take tlm lilsety of adverting. I have stated the points of the Pill of which I disapprove, and I now come to the ttnestion what vote I shall give? If I did not 'consider the objec tions I have already stated, of a most insuperable charac ter., I should still find elsewhere in the measure clauses of which, under no circumstances, I could approve. I object to the right of voting given to the occupiers of land of the low rent of 501. a-year, because I think 'such a class of men must be open to the worst speties of influence. I object to the right of voting given even to certain occu piers of houses of 50/. a-year, especially in the counties ad joining London, and particularly in that in width I chiefly reside. I believe that the constituency to he thus derived from towns like Margate, Ramsgate*, and Tunbridge-wells persons who have not the slightest connection with the county, who are resident this year and non-resident the next, will overbear, if not overwhelm, the wholesome constituency of the county. As the ten-pound franchise clause originally stood, I thought it infinitely too low; it was too low when it was a bona ftde yearly rent of 101. in the parish books, where the houses are usually rated at about two-thii ds of their actual rent. But, my Lords, if I thought this objectionable as it stood in the Bill intro (Need into the last Parliament, how much more objec tionable do I find it in the present measure, where a right of voting is given to an individual who only pays a weekly rent, provided be has occupied the same dwelling for a cer tain period.. Tam fully satisfied that this claim, as it now stands, is in itself a much greater abuse—a much greater via/otiose of the just principles of representation than any which - the measure professes to correct e —(Cheere.) This provision will create, and, indeed, has already created, as could be proved by evidence at your Lordships' Bar, a wholesale manufaCture of fictitious votes.—(Hear, hear.) In many populous places, and especially in this great me tropolis, every man who nightly shelters himself in his hovel, and pays for it only a rent of 3s. Id. per week, will enjoy the right of voting for Members of Parliament. What does this amount to ? I say that it amounts in fact to universal suffrage.—(Much cheering.) Then I will ask Noble Lords to what conclusion I must come ? Here let ine remark once more, for it cannot be too strongly impressed upon the minds of your Lordships, that if in legislating upon this important question you take one false step, that step can never be retraced.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition side.) lam ready to allow that an undue degree of influence may lie given to the Crown—that art 'unconstitutional power may be usurped by this House. These ere evils capable of correction ; but once give too much rower into the hands' of the people and I defy the " fore most man of all the world"—the greatest and boldest statesman that ever existed, to deprive them of that power. The conclusion I come to, then, is this : if this clause be pas:ed, the just balance of power between the three estates, the equilibrium which forms the beauty and symmetry of the Constitution, will at once be overthrown.—(Cheers.) What then would become of that Constitution which has raised this country to the loftiest pinnacle of glory, and has given a degree of power and prosperity unknown to any nation of the new or the old world.—(Hear, bear.) That equilibrium once over thrown can never be restored. It may be said of me that I am no Reformer, because I shall vote against this Bill. I deny it. I have stated my views of Rtform, and I will pledge my existence that nine-tenths of the people of Kent, at least, prefer those views to the ill-digested measure of the Noble Earl and his coadjutors. When I consider the undue influence used to carry this Bill—(Hear) — when I consider what efforts have been made to destroy the independence of this House—(Continued cheers.)._ when I consider my total want of confidence in his Majesty's present advisers, I may truly say, that I cannot but be aware that I stand on the brink of destruction ; but the only chance of standing securely is to stand firmly.— (Much cheering.) 1 honestly and fearlessly say that I will vote against this Bill. I vote against it not as the enemy, hut as the friend of that Constitution, for which I am ready, if necessary, to lay down my life. I know that in stating that I am a Reformer to a con siderable extent, I differ from many of my Noble Friends ; but I am as thoroughly convinced that some change is necessary, as I am satisfied this Bill is not necessary. It has been over and over again asked, " What will the Lords do?" I answer, that they will honestly. conscientiously, and fearlessly, discharge their duty— (Cheers) —to their King, to their country, and to their God.—(Cheers.) To that King, whose honour and dig• pity it is our bounden duty as well as our anxious wish to support ; to that country, for whose welfare we are prepared to niake every sacrifice ; to that God, who hes greatly protected this kingdom, and who will continue to protect it if we remain true to our principles.—(Cheers.) These are times when we should look to the principles actuating other States, and especially that State which has. proved the curse of Europe.—(Hear, Lear.) That State which has no principle, and is governed by no principle. It is time for us to see faction in that unhappy country , striking at the root of all society, and to be aware that the same principles have reached our oven shores. It is time for us to see a spirit of anarchy abroad under the mask of a corrector of abuses.—(Cheers.) It is time for us to see that the ship of the State is in danger—that she has been deserted by those who ought to have preserved her ; she is surrounded by rocks, and unless your Lordships remain steadily at your post, she must strike, and become a wreck What! let me ask you, will become of the aristocracy of England if once they lose the respect of their country ? (Cheers from the Opposition ride, re-echoed from the Ministerial benches.) I do not envy the man who can abandon the vessel of the State at such a mo ment of peril : I do not envy him his sleepless nights, or the stings of a wounded conscience. To you, my Lords, I appeal, in whose veins the pure blood of a long line of Noble ancestors, mantles with an invigorating current. Remember your high stations, your high duties, and prove yourselves worthy of your forefathers.—(Cheers.) You have justly earned the honour you beer—assert your in dependence.—throw out this Bill, and entitle yourselves to the good wishes of your contemporaries, and to the gratitude of posterity. Do not forget that you are called upon to act in perilous times, and display that cool ness and courage which becomes a period of peril. I do not pretend to the historical learning of the Noble Earl, nor would I wish to possess it, if it is to teach me not to take warning by the sufferings of other nation.. He has alluded to the French Revolution ; but the impression left by it upon my mind, is far different from that stated by. the Noble Earl. I should say, that a base spirit of con cession was there the destruction of the Aristocracy, and that submission to intimidation brought the unhappy Louis to the scaffold.—e(Much cheering.) An appeal has been made by the Noble Earl to the clergy. We look to the Prelates in our time of .need ; we call upon them tip help us in the great and glorious work of saving our country.—(Much cheering.) I feel the utmost confidence in their exalted characters, and I know that every virtue that adorns human nature shines forth in their every action. On this occasion, let those virtues shine with double lustre. if-once this Bill goes to a Committee, there is an end of this House.--(Cheers.) I have done, nay Lords, and I thank you for the kindness with which you have beard m e. It this Bill be rejected, I hope it will be succeeded , I by a different measure—although, to point of form, it cannot originate here--whiehwill not b e li a bl e to t h e same objections; for I fairly admit that there exists a strong feeling in favour of Reform, and the expectations of the country ought not to be disappointed but tlotsootally the that there exists generally a disposition h Bill. Prc4 Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but t e . The Earl of HARROWV begun by apologising . for w ho had risen taking precedenne of the Earl of Roseb er y , d ues at the same time. He was unwilling to allow the cl tion to be decided without some expre ssion of opinion on his part, and personal indisposition would render it jai- possible for him to address the House at a later hour. The House had been told, from the highest authority, that it must yield—that the people Must be satisfied, and that they would not be content with any less extensive mea• sure. This, too, had been said by a Noble Earl in a tone which be (Lord no would not venture to characterise as a menace, because the Noble Earl had so repeatedly dis claimed any intention of the kind, as if lee had good ground for apprehending that many parts of his speeches would be liable to that constrnetion. Such declarations seemed to show an impression on his mind that the deliberations of the House were intended to be overawed.—(Mttch cheering.) He wished to debate this question with as much coolness and calmness as possible, coafsideling that the Constitu tion of the country was at stake, and he would advert first to the personal interest which many Noble Lord* were supposed to 'slave adverse to the measure. It bad been admitted by the Noble Earl that the privilege of nomina tion to seats in the HoaSSe of Commons did not belong to their Lordships as Peers, and that it was shared by them individuals in various ranks and occupations. The 'same remark would also apply to int i luence in counties, should they ever be diehdet% as proposed by the Bill upon the tables tie fact, however, was, that those who were 'nick-named boroughmongers, and iron were !aid by some to be constantly preying 'upon the vitals of the country, were by no nrestris a united body; and that, as upon most great 'questions, nominees were found in about equel proportions on both sides, it was satisfactory to knoaar that only one-half the number was Usually preying upon the vitals of the county ea the same moment. —(Cheers and laughtero He (Lord Harrowby) had been included in the list n those who possessed Parliamen tary infltrenete And he wished to take this opportunity of settiete himself rectos in curia. Nearly a centtity ago hie grandfather, then Solicitor-Genera% had been returned for the borough of Tivertott, and in his legal capa city be had done it esame service, and had formed a personal int;tesacy with many of the resident merchants and fktiiilies. That interest had descended to his (tord Harrowby's) father, and when he came of age, he, like his father, had been elected to represent the Corporation. In 15V the borough, on the death of one Member, proposed to choose his (Lord Harrowby's) younger brother, then at the bar, and his father had doubted extremely the policy of thus diverting him from his legal pursuits. From that time to the present, a pe riod of 36 years, the same influence bad been preserved, anti he hoped that the fri sully connection would descend to his children. During the whole period of that con nection, neither lie nor his ancestors had owned an acre or land within one hundred miles of the borough, and not a single voter or inhabitant was indebted to him a single shilling.—(Cheers.) Yet he should have heard without the slightest alarm that a couple of Nabobs, with 20,000/. each, had gone down to canvass the voters. The connec tion was merely that of mutual kindness and regard, and he owned that lie should not be deprived of it by this Bill or otherwise without the most sincere regret. Neverthe less, he was bold to assert, that it would not have the slightest influence on his vote; and he had alluded to the circumstance merely in illustration of the sort of disinte rested connection which many other Noble Lords main tained with other. boroughs.—(Cheers.) Another part of the Noble Earl's speech (continued his Lordship) con sisted of a needless vindication of his own consistency. In different Houses of Parliament, from the first moment of his political life, the Noble Earl has unquestionably been an advocate for Parliamentary Reform ; but I had appre hended that his ideas upon that question had of late years been somewhat narrowed : I had thought, after the zeal and warmth of youth had subsided, that the Nob'e Earl, in maturer life, had adopted nations of a less general and sweeping character.—(Cheers.) The Noble Earl denied all intention of proceeding upon abstract principles of right—the only right he acknowledged, he said, was the right of the people to be well governed.— To that doctrine I most cordially subscribe ; but then I contend, that those who set about forming a Government for the people ought to take care that they establish such a system as will ensure good government.—(Cheers.) If my memory could be trusted, I think that I could make the best speech that ever was delivered in or out of Par liament in favour of this Bill, simply by putting together the speeches and writings of men who are now titbir the opponents or the supporters of Reform.—(Hear.) Do 1 say this because I wish to reproach any man for changing his opinion ?—I should be ashamed of such a paltry argumentam ad liontinena ; but when I consider the weight and authority of persons who have spoken and written, and who now tell us they were mistaken, I think we have a right to demand from them more than from others a full and satisfactory statement of the grounds upon which they have abandoned their former opinions. It is not a vague declamation about what we consider the rights of man—it is not a vague declamation about the sup posed deficiencies of our present Constitution, or about the possible conveniences of another—it is not that, but if grave and statesmanlike exhibition of those reasons which have in duced them, the proposers of this Bill, to believe that another mode of Government, to be formed under the provi sions of this Bill, will be better for the country than the mode of Government under which it now exists. I say, my Lords, that that is the sort'of argument which I have a right to expect' from the Noble Lord, much more than that sort of argu ment which he did, in fact, bring forward.—( Hear.) There is one reason which he has stated, and which he seems to think is sufficient for all the purposes of advocat ing this Bill,and sufficient, too, as an answer to all the 6- iections against it, and that is that this Bill, or a meoure of (evil efficiency, is that which cannot, and which ought not to be resisted. The Noble Earl has told us that the coincidences of the French revolution threw the minds of the people into a considerable degree of perturbation on this subject; that this question of Reform had thrown out some scintillations before that event; but upon its .iccurrence, the embers in which it lay were raked up, and through that unhappy coincidence burst forth into a blaze. ft was subsequent to that event that the two Houses of Parliament, if not absolutely nonine contradicente, at least without much opposition, declared that they were fully .ensible of the blessings of the happy Constitution under which they lived, and which had for so many years con. fared such manifest, such unequalled advantages upon the country. Now, however, it seems that the feeling has so much changed, that so far from the people being sensible the blessings they enjoy under this Constitution, they have an anxious desire that it should he changed. The Noble Earl said that observing this, and being anxious to introduce a measure that should satisfy what he deemed the just wishes of the people, he considered most care fully whether any such treasure could be produced— whether any plan could he brought forward—or u Nether the of in formerly proposed by a Noble Person in the other House of Parliament could be safely and prudently adopted. On this last point he came to the conclusion that no such plan as that would be sufficient to satisfy the peeple. My Lords, the Noble Earl much underratts his own powers if he thinks he could not have framed a measure different from this, and yet fully capable of satisfying the wishes of the people ; if he thinks that at this time he was bound consistently with his duty to recommend such a plan as this to the consideration of Parliament. I will not spe culate on what might have happened had he thought other wise : but I must say, that I believe he would have been fully able to concilitate a snore grateful and solid support to his Administration, and would have disarmed as large proportion of those who now oppose this plan, because they think that this change must carry with it the cause of further changes, had lie proposed a different measure than by bringing forward, as he has done, that which he has thought fit to call a hold measure of Reform.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, in that epithet I agree—(Cheers)—so hold a measure never was brought forward by any man.— (Cheers from Lord Londonderry.) Your Lordships will not expect that I should fatigue you or myself by going through the history of all other countries; but I ask on what plan of Reform they proceeded ? I wish they would point out a measure which, in point of extent, or im portance of consequence, ever (quelled this measure. It -is on account of the extent of the measure that the Noble Earl thinks the people will be satisfied with it. I confess I do not think that that is a circum stance which will recommend this measure to the favourable adoption of this . House. The speech of the Noble Earl has been, with only one exception, directed to bring to the notice of your Lordships a few prominent features of the defects of the present system. On that object he has em ployed hie eloquence and ability, such as he must always di s play on any occasion of the kind, and has directed them both in strong and direct attacks upon the whole system of the nomination boroughs. I have not strength, nor have I bad enough diligence to go back to those periods to which the Noble Earl has alluded, as offering the instances of elections pure front this system of nomination, periods to which the Noble Earl proposes to restore us. Remem bering, however, what the Noble Earl has said on that point, again I express my desire that either be or some of the supporters of this measure will point out the time at which the Constitution of this country bore any resem blance to what it will be under the operation of this Bill. —(Hear, hear, hear.) In this unlimited attack on the influence eenibcreut in which consequence propertyinudividuals possess—not by virtue of th eir po upon the of r representation accidental enta tion of f circumstances the —I defy them to point out a period at which the traces of that influence are not found to have existed.—(Hear, l t i h e o a r r i ) T ties on this Earl has jethavestated deemed that c all ha he change gte of great thi u s sorta advisable. There are some which 4 could quote to the Noble earl, who Were of a different opinion—some, too, *hose opinions will be deemed by all as well deserving of credit. I name Mr. Pitt, when time and experience had matured his judgment. I name Mr. Burke, Mr.Wyndhatn, and, lastly, Mr. Canning. Can I mention the names of men who, united with great knowledge of politics and extraor dinary talents a greater degree of knowledge of human na -1 ture, and of the actstal workings of human society? Yet they were all men who found their way into Parliament through these torought; and who deemed the preservation of theSe boroughs 'necessary for the purposes for which 'they thenetaves had thitS employed them.—(Hear, hear.) I assert, my Lords; with little fear of contradiction, that 'nearly, withoht exception, all the men who have made a disting'aisbed figure in Parliament, first found their way there through the medium of these boroughs.—(Hear, hear.) That was not an immaterial circumstance, unless you can show me that under the new Constitution the entrancie of Minh persons into Parliament will not be more slitcuft. These boroughs are admitted to have been useful in the early period of the Constitution; but it is said that the time of 'their usefulness no longer exists—that there has been a change in the times, and that these institutions 'MO to change with those. changes. There has been a change in the times, and a change too in the manners of the world; hut is it shown that when these boroughs no longer exist, there will be no inconvenience felt from their loos ? That assertion cannot truly be made. This, then, My Lords, is one of those instances which perfectly prove the true philosophy of Mr. Fox, when he said that the practice of our Constitution was admirable, but the theory of it was absurd.—(Hear, hear.) Yet we are now called upon to bring back these absurdities of theory, and to throw aside, at the same time, all those benefits which the country has hitherto derived from the practical working of the Constitution, and which has been found to be admirable. I have now come, ray Lords, to the old story, and I am afraid that if not ungrateful to your Lordships, it may be so to that wider assembly which may, perhaps, bear something of what we are now saying, that we ought not to make changes in our Constitution because it has worked well. There was a time, my Lords, when that eulogy of the Constitution would have sounded well in the ears of the teople.—(Hear, hear.) It is an eulogy that has been re peated in all ages of the world—(Hear, hear)—it has been proclaimed by the philosopher and the statesman, and echoed by the people—(Hear)—and yet we are now told that we are not now to receive it as deserving of our sanction. We are desired, on the contrary, to say to the people—f o it is all a mistake for you to fancy yourselves great, g'orious, or happy, or that you are the best governed people in the world—it is a mistake to fancy that you enjoy blessings under your Government—you enjoy none, and you are the most ill-governed people under the sun, and at the present moment your sufferings are dreadful." Are we to address them in such language?—is it true? and if they leave the shelter of that Constitution under which they have so long found protection and security, will this Bill provide them with a great advantage, or will it not, on the con trary, increase those evils which are now so much depre cated ? When our legislative assemblies come no longer to govern, hut to be governed, and governed too by those numerous assemblies of another description which have recently been formed in the north, and especially at Birmingham, when they come with their directions for our conduct thundering over our heads ; what, I ask, will be the kind of Government then presiding over the interests of the country ? Shall we have fewer taxes in consequence of this measure ? have even its advocate ven tured to tell the people that it will procure them cheaper bread. Have not all the attempts of the Noble Duke, lately at the head of the Government, to reduce the bur dens of the State—attempts which, in some instances, 1 have been induced to think were carried too far—have not all these attempts been directed to the welfare of the people and the good of the Government? After all these attempts made to gather gleanings from a field that has been so well reaped, who is there that will say (be the assembly as democratical as it may) that it can reduce the present amount of the public taxes? Some there are, per haps, who may be bold enough to say so, but if they do say so, I ask how can that end be obtained ? It cannot be obtained but at the sacrifice of the faith, honour, credit, and character of the country.—(Hear, hear.) War is another point en which the supporters of this measure have addressed their assertions to the people. In the time of the democratical a , sembly it is said there will be no wars. Can Hon. Gentlemen and Noble Lords who make such assertions have looked into their books, or do they remember what they have read ? No wars indeed—where was the Democratic Republic that was not the most warlike of all the States around it ? Why will there not be wars ? Because, it is said, the Parliament have hitherto entered into wars against the inclination of the country. Is that true ? Look at the I wars of King William. Perhaps that is one of the cases of the most doubtful kind ; and I ask whether a Reformed Parliament, like that which we are now to have, would have supported William against James ? From what we know of these times, I think it more than doubtful whether a Reformed Parliament would have supported such a war so much against the inclination of the mass of the people ; but surely that the then Parliament did sup port that war well will not be made a ground of accusa tion against the Parliament by those who call themselves the friends of the liberty of the c ountry.—(Cheers.) Again, Ist us look at the war of I'7ll. That war was actually forced upon the Government by the people. I am not certain as to the conduct of the Parliament exactly at the beginning of that war, but I know that the was highly popular.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the war with America. No man can doubt that at the commencement of that war, and for a considerable period after it had been carried on, it was a war of the country. It grew un popular at last, because it was unsuccessful—(Hear, hear) —and I do not deny that that war was then carried on after it had ceased to be popular, in consequence of the excessive degree of influence possessed by the Crown in the House of Commons.—(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.) But bow did matters stand at that time with reference to the influence of t , h 0 e .... C .n r 0 0 t n2 9 Its influence was then as great as in t he time of Sir : 0 Robert Walpole. There were then I be li e ve, 200 men in the House of Commons, all under the direct influence of the Crown. Now there are not more (A Noe.E Loan near the Earl of Harrowby whispered 109); i —nothing like the number, unless you count as such those Members of that House who happen to bold commissions in the army or navy. Notwithstanding all the advantages which I state, I believe the present Constitution of the House of Commons secures—it is, I admit, one of th e parts of the Constitution, the advantages of which are not so easily perceived try minds unaccustomed to political speculations, and unable to observe matters which are not palpable to the meanest comprehension.—(Hear.) I there fore f el much tike the Noble Earl who has just sat down, that at this period, when attacks of so serious a kind are made upon the Constitution, and appear to produce such a deep impression upon the country, I ought, though not satisfied that the present system is perfect, to hesitate before I consented to changes, which, made at such a moment, may he made too hastily and too extensively. While I say this, I am ready to declare that I am so far a Reformer that I should be glad to see part of our system improved, and the probability of corruption and bribery diminished, by diminishing the number of places that have exposed them selves to the imputation of those offences.—(Hear.) There is another part of the speech of the Noble Eal to which I now wish to allude. It is that in which he mentions the want of representatives for the great towns that have lately risen into importance. On that part of the subject I agree with him. I ant no new convert to the doctrine; for never has an occasion arisen—and there have been a few in my time of proposals for a transfer from a convicted borough to a large town in which I have not given my support to the proposal, and I have not confined my sup port to votes in this House, hut have strongly and fre quently pressed the necessity of the measure elsewhere.-- (Hear, hear.) For a considerable time, even when the snhject of Reform was much in agitation, it did not ap pear that on the part of them towns there was any great impression that their interest would be much advanced by having representatives. That feeling appears to me now to lie in an entirely different direction ; but I doubt much whether their interests would be better attended to by having representatives of their own, than now when they are represented by means of those mercantile men who have seats in the • other House for different boroughs with which they are connected. But if you do admit a prin ciple, you should not be inconsistent with respect to it. I see, therefore, no objection, but the objection to change it self; yet I should support that change, notwithstanding I agree with the Noble Duke, that no system likely to be established is likely to work at first so well as that which has hitherto existed. I should support the change, there fore, because I think that it is not enough for a country to be well governed, unless the majority of that part of the population in any degree capable of judging think that it is well governed.—(Cheers from both sides.) Do not misunderstand me. I think that much of the power of a Government exerywhere exists on the confidence w hich the people have in it—(Cheers) —and if that confidence does not exist, be the Government in reality g ood or bad, it is the interest and duty of the GovernMent to take such rea sonable measures as suggest themselves to recover that confidence and assure its continuance.—(Loud and con tinued cheering.) That, however, is not to be always done by making changes that may endanger the tranquil lity of the country. If such changes should be proposed, it would he the duty of the Legislative Body to resist them. —(Hear, hear.) Such a change was now proposed, and he should resist it, in the hope that the quiet good sense of the people of England would recover from its present delusion ; and, however indignant the people might at first be with those who dare to oppose the wild suggestions of their phrenzy, I am sure they would soon return to the old feelings of love and attachment towards those who had so properly performed their date in arresting the wildness of the popular career.--(Cheers.) I think the details of this 13111 are bad, but that they are capable of correction in the Committee. But is that a ground to go into Committee upon it? I think not, if I am satisfied that the prin ciple of the measure is bad.—(Hear, hear.) I think that the principle is bad, because I believe that that on which the whole of this Bill is founded is such that no amendments made in the Committee can after the objections to it so as to mike it our duty to pass the Bill.—(Elear, hear, hear.) I confess that when I first heard of the proposed changes, I flattered myself that some amendments could be proposed which would render this Bill, if not a desirable acquisition for the coun ry, at least a measure of less dangerous import than I now con sider it. I set to work—l made the attempt—l put my band to it, hut I found it impossible to do what I wished. —(Hear, hear, hear.) I was met at every step by the principle which I considered so objectionable. The prin ciple is, that population, t then by itself, is the basis of the representation. It is said how can it be so, when the Bill requires that in each borough there should be at least 300 voters composed of a class of persons renting 101. houses? That provision is certainly contained in the Bill ; bat still I say, that population is the basis of repre sentation. That is seen in the fact, that a population of 2,000 alone secures one Member ; a population of 4,000 enjoys two Memlera ; and to make up this number of 4,000, you are to go, in many instances, into the ne.gli bouring part of the country, and having obtained that amount of population within the given limits, you secure the Members, whether they are paupers or not. When I show these circumstances, I ask whether I have not made out my proposition, that population is to be the basis of the future representation ? I will not go into the argu ment, whether that is or is not the Lest basis of represen tation, for I believe that in no country but the United States has the experiment ever been tried. Even in the wildest times of the French Republic, population, as a basis for representation, was to be checked by taxation ; and both taken in combination were considered as the essential qualities of the system of represents t;on. But if population alone is to he taken, and you set out on that principle, and hope to find a resting place from attempts at future changes; you will he mis taken. However, if you do adopt that principle, you ought to follow it out consistently. Has that been done here ? You will indeed find great difficulty in fixing the line, and that is a reason why you should not adopt the principle at all. What reason can be given to the bo roughs, some of which, for want of the requisite number of people, are to have hut one representative, while in some others the elective franchise is altogether to cease? What is the reason that can be given in support of the system, which, under the appearance of an equality of voting, gives the right in some places to but few person, while in others it is so extended as to amount almost to universal suffrage? What reason can he given to satisfy those large towns, which, with a population of 100,000 souls, are yet to have only the same number of Members as a small town that, with the addition of a rural district, just possesses a population of 4,000 ? This surely is an anomaly in this Bill. We have them now, and they are complained of; but this Bill will not remove them. But in order to have anomalies, you must first have a principle. It is our pride that in the formation of our Constitution, no principle was consulted.—(Hear, from both sides.) It was the result of the wisdom of successive generations act ing upon no system, but governing themselves by the dif ferent circumstances in which at various times they were placed. They made such changes as the circumstances of society required, but in making them they did not adopt any regular system.—(Hear, from the Ministerial Benches.) I understand those cheers, but 1 repeat my former statements.—( Hear.) I say, therefore, that my o' jection is to the principle of this Bill. There is no ground whatever for supposing that the towns which you have selected are more fit to send Members to Parliament than any others. That is my first objection, and you may hope in vain to give satisfaction by thus estabishing injustice by an Act of Parliament. Another objection is to he found in the extraordinary addition made by this Bill to the influence of the manufacturing interests. It is certainly right that they should have their peculiar repre sentatives, though you must permit me to observe, that without attempting to establish a- balance of these inte rests, a representation has existed for them in the present frame-work of the House of Commons. Let me add, that if you establish the representation solely on the basis of population, 1 do not know what you will be able to say to the claims of Ireland. We who oppose that principle should have answers enough—we could say that they did not pay a sufficient amount of taxation. That was the principle adopted by Mr. Pitt, who left only a repre sentation to those boroughs in Ireland in which the greatest amount of population and of taxation were found to be united. I wish any Noble Lord who supports the Bill to tell me what answer he could give. I know that no an swer can be given to the agitators there, for nothing will satisfy them; but I think that no answer can be given by the supporters of the Bill to those who fairly wish to see the representation of the two countries placed upon the same footing. I have another objection to the Bill. I think, that though the Noble Earl was able to state rea sons why representatives should he given to the large ins nufacturing- towns, and why some should be added to the extensive counties, he is unable to state reasons why be pursues the line he has adopted with respect to the bo roughs in schedule B, against which no complaints of corruption have been proved. We know what they will produce--what sort of representatives they have sent to Parliament—and yet there is no one place, with the ex ception of the two Universities, in which a single right of election has been left unchanged. Although Ido not assert that the sort of property which exists in boroughs is to be considered property in the strictest sense of the word, yet I think that every right of that sort ought to be most lightly touched, and nit touched at all without some strong reason, and without a fair prospect of afford ing to the man whom you compel to part with it the ad vantage of improved Government, and all the compensation which that advantage can secure. Now, with respect to all these boroughs, without saying a word of corporations, of freeholds, of burgsee tenures, of potwallopers, of scot and lot payers, and all the infinite variety of voters, which I believe sincerely, in the working of the Constitution, have produced the best consequences to the State, I find that they are all to be swept away at once, and swept away without, as I see, securing the advantages of per manent good Government. There is another objection I have to the Bill, and that is the enormous number of per. sons it will introduce to the enjoyment of the elective fran chise. I ask whether that is a trifle ? where is the example for it ?•—where is the country that has the same number even as we have now? Look to France, which has been just regenerated—France, which bas been regene rated upon a democratic principle—had not, I believe, more than 80,000 voters; and now I fancy I am not in correct in stating that the democratic faction have been satisfied with an increase which makes the total number of voters abont 200,000.—(Hear, hear) But France, my Lords, contains, if I am not mistaken, thirty-two millions of inhabitants, yet there her democrats thought that a constituency of 200,000 made the country suffi ciently democratic. Here we have only twelve millions of inhabitants, and yet we had, I cannot exactly state the number, but something between four and five hundred thousand voters; in addition to which, it is now proposed by this Bill to create half a million.—(Hear, bear.) Thus, my Lords, are we, with the twelve millions of in habitants, to have one million of voters ; while democratic France, with her thirty-two millions of inhabitants, is con tent with about 200,000 electors.--(Cheers.) My Lords, I think that with respect to the inconvenience which must arise from this enormous increase in the constituent body, no man can venture to express a doubt; and whether there may be provisions he, eafter to obviate this inconve• nience it I know not; but of this I am certain, that so great is i the Influx —so grea t the access of new voters— that s impossible it should not be attended with confu sion and disorder.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords , the ano malies of the Constitution have been much insisted on, and the evils under which the country is stated to labour have be en f orc ibl y p our tr a yed ; hut where has the Noble Earl f oun d out the panacea for all evils— this univesrs tl medicine—to be substituted for the whole some diet by which England has bsen so long nou rished, by which s h e h as gr own, and by which she has flourished? You found it in the intelligence and sh concurred, inde pendence of one c l ass o f voters.—(Hear, hear.) In one class alone—governing in all places and in all parts of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Formerly, my Lords, we were in the habit of co ns id er i ng that a variety of electors was good, because th ere b y an op p o rtunity was afforded for men o f different pursuit s , an d oc cupations, and situations in life, to find their way i n t o t i me House of Commons. The t E hle a , r y l vi t e v w ill o p f er g h i a v p ing perhaps remember a pamphlet which was written Noble a person high in his confidence, and written e some advice to the Cortes of Spain. my Lords, with many of the ob-er rations which I found in that pamphlet; and I particularly agreed with the recommendation not to create a uniform mode of electron, or a uniform right of vAling thrsiighout the country.—(Hear, hear.) They, too, my Lords, who think an equality in the suffrage desirable (I confess, my Lords, I am not of that numoer). might, with great justice, ehject to this measure, the eff-ct of which it must have in different places—in some creating in fact universal suf frage, and in others (I wish they were more numerous) leaving but a few qualified to elect the representatives.— (Hear, hear.) My Lords, there are some omissions in the speech of the Noble Earl which I regret, and of which I think this House and the country have some reason to complain.—(Cheers.) The Noble Earl has entirely left out of consideration what 1, in my igno rance, thought the real, the great problem for a States man to consider, when about to construct a Legislative Assembly.—(('heers.) The first question I shall ask the Noble Earl, is in what manner does he propose to arrange the elections, so that he may be likely to produce an assembly fit to govern this c ountry.—(Cheers.) For my part, I should have thought that looking to history and experience would have been the best way to qualify men to become judges of what was in truth the best constitution. But history and experience have been thrown aside.—(Cheers.) To an individual like me, I allow it might be rema,ked, you do not seek for the best Constitution for the country, because you say this which you now enjoy is decidedly the best. But still there is a question which one might ae k, and it is, when the clauses of your Bill come into operation, what will be the sort of persons elected by the populous places in which there is a constituency of nine or ten thou sand—a constituency not merely paying 101. p‘r annum, but 3s. 10,1. a week.—(Cheers.) What probihility is there, my Lords, that these people would be guided in their choice by that sound judgment which, upon such m occasion, ought to preeaii.—(Cheers.) I ask, too, my Lords, if, as has been sometimes stated, a very nume rous cons•iturney will really be a cure for bribery? I ask you, my Lords, to look to Dublin and to Liver pool.—(Loud cheers.) I ask you, my Lord•, to re member Westinin-ter, when Westminster was contested. —(Great cheering)—and I ask you if it did not, on both sides, present a scene of the grossest bribery.--(Conti nued cheering.) Ought not then the Noble Earl, be fore he decided on an increase to the exiting nunaheis of electors, to have paused, and considered, and asked his own conscience, whether if his desire were to pro cure good Members of Parliament, he was likely to produce such a result by the adoption of such means. --(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Should he not have asked his conscience whether it was probable such a con• stituency would be directed by motives which would lead them to select god persons in their choice of a represen taeive.—(Cheers.) My Lords, it has be'tn said that such persons are bad judges of measures, hut that they are good judges rf men. This, my Lords, I believe to be a fallacy ; although I have more than once heard it brought forward by good authorities. When you say these people are good judges of men, it is meant they are good judges of the conduct of men. What is the conduct of a public man ? How is it to be estimated ? Simply by his votes upon certain great measures. If these be in accordance with his pledges and professions, he is open to no reproach from these judges. But in order to judge rightly, they should be capable of judging of the measures.—(Hear, beer.) As it is, if he vote right or wrong on all great measures, according to his pledges at the hustings, his public conduct is irreproachable, so fir as they are concerned, however in jurious to the interests of the countiy, and however wild and irrational may be these measures he has supported.— (Hear.) But now, my Lords, when I declare that popu ler representation is not the le•st mode of securing good Members of Pali tment, do I wish it to be excluded on this account ? No ; I rejoice that popular franchise has formed a great part of the constituency of this country. I rejoice in it, because it has tended to give the people that exalted idea of their own freedom which distinguishes them from the nations of other countries—(Hear, hear)—because it has given them an interest in the affairs of the State, and fostered in all classes, even the most humble, a spirit of pure patriotism. —(Cheers ) There is not, therefore, one place in which popular representation prevails from which I would take the franchise.—(Cheers.) If the Bid were to leave all the boroughs exactly in the state it found them, it would be something in its favour. But for many reasons I op pose it; and among them, especially for this—that I would not alter anything of the ancient franchise.—(Hear, hear ) While I confess that there are certain portions of the existing system which are liable to condemnation, I do so most reluctantly. And I consider that the Noble Lord should have dour so most reluctantly, fearing lest his sweeping condemnation of certain parts would lead the people to the belief that there wae not one part of the Con stitution which should be unchanged.—(Cheers.) The dreadful effect to be apprehended from this proposal of change is, that it may unsettle the minds of men as re gards the whole system.—(Cheers.) If we may say to the people, all the rights of such and such classes of persons, heretofore voters, are to be sacrificed, and this without their judges deigning to assign any reason, what must be their feelings? Will they not say, the Govern ment which sacrifices the rights of its subjects is not that under which we wish to live.—(Great cheering.) Being, as I am, so deeply interested upon this question, deprives me of the power of expressing myself with that facility I could desire. But let the Noble Lords opposite tell toe what hardships arise from the anomalies in the Constitu tion ? cr what rational hope can they entertain of reme dying them by the course they would pursue? Do they i magine that they will he able to procure proper re presentatives from that large set of boroughs for which they have appointed 300 voters? My Lords, I always under stood, that boroughs with 300 electors were precisely those in which there was the most direct and grossest bribery— (Hear, hear,)—becato.e men could, by a small sum of money, secure a majority, and thus always sought those places as affording the cheapest way by which they could get into Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if this be the case, do you expect to attain the end you propose to your selves by increasing the number of poor electors in those places?—(Hear, hear.) Again, too, I would ash the Noble Earl what sort of Parliament can they hope to have under the operation of their Reform Bill ?—(Hear, hear.) We have heard my Lords, of a Parliament which acquired the title of Parliament rim indoctum.—(Cheers.) I fear that under the cit cumstances to which I have alluded, a good claim to this enviable designation might be once more set forth.—(Hear, hear.) Under the operation of this Bill, that must useful class of Members who have been brought up io the public service, and have thus aquired that knowledge of public business which no man can acquire except by serving his country in an official station, and which is most essential to the House of Commons, would be excluded. For how were they, except by bribery, to obtain admission to the House of Commons?—(Cheers.) How too, I ask, is the West India interest to be represented in the other House ?—(Hear, hear.) Some of our great manufacturers, it is true, may find entrance to the Com mons ; that is to say, if he be not supplanted by some noisy demagogue, whom he is deterred from opposing by the salutary fear of having his house burned down by the mob. (Cheere. ) Such a man, I say, may find entrance into the other House, for some place which has been elevated to import ance by manufactures. In some of the ports, too, mer chants may be returned to Parliament. But is this a House to represent all the great interests of the country— all the great interests of the empire?—(Cheers.) Will the House of Commons possess all the information neces sary to manage all the complicated affairs which frequently come before them, without the aid of professional men— without the presence of his Majesty's Attorney and Soli citor-General to correct those mistakts into which a want of legal knowledge must infallibly lead a legislative as sembly.—(Cheers.) But how were these persons to get in? How could they, consistently with their attention to a profession so laborious, devise means of entering that House unless, as in the other case, by bribery ? Let the Noble Lords answer me this.—(Cheers.) Not only law yers would be excluded from that House, but others who, perhaps, formed its most useful Members ; but whose wealth, whose constitution, whose habits, all forbade them to face the expense, the trouble, and the annoyance of a popular election.—(Cheers.) I ask the Noble Lords how are such men to come in ? Another question, too, I have to ask the Noble Lords, and I wok that my doing so will not be considered as proving that we have, as the Noble Earl asserted, a peculiar interest in this Bill—for I declare if we have any interest in this particular it is only in common with the nation at large. I mean the possibi lity of your Lordships getting your eldest sons into Par liament. I ask the No'de Lords, how is this, except in a few instances, to be effected under the Reform Bill ?—(Cheers.) And I ask, if there is to be a House of Lords, is it not fit that it should be able to display that knowledge which must be painfully acquired, and that talent which is matured by the habit of exertion? 11y lnds, I have heard many celebrated Members of your Lordships' House during the 50 years to which my memory extends, but I caunot recollect more than ten men who have taken a distinguished part in your Lord ships' debates, who had not their schooling in the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) It is not that this is bene ficial in exercising their talent as ape keys alone, but it gives them an opportunity of learning how to transact the public business, and what is, perhaps, more important still than any thing else they can there learn, they are led to intercou rse with their fellow-sub j e ct s, and w i t h p o p ular bodies, by wh;ch they are taught to feel and appreciate English born a loibertys--(Hear, hear)—and English independence, they are to hereditary homage, and in most r minds and less powerful in actuating their conduct thal.ll, V. cases to hereditary wealth, might be less present to 11 '0; they never had been elsewhere—than if they bad !grebe,. 1 no other atmosphere except that of your Lordship; 11°utbis* —(Clleers.) My Lards, Would not, hwver, Re v ', , t as a reason why your Lordships should notepass th e „0, t except that the country are equally interested with r id 4 a . 1 Lordships. My Lords; I have yet another questio!.., , th, ask the Noble Earl : I desire to know if be does heir,' t th it a body, constituted after the manner he pron .. : a for his new Parliament, would assist his GoveriTeg.: it, in carrying into of 'act their views On what are T . . 4 'II liberal principles? No, my Lords, Ido Pogitt_j tar declare, that if we had had a Constitution fri'7 l o a, upon a model similar to that now set forward, stil l vt , ° o r !In the people have been labouring under a multituareao:, 'I u th ose taxes which were imposed in the ignorance of f, fr ' 4l times, and entangled in all those trammels of law " me- ' t with society was formerly embarras sed ;--I ask the 1 4°14 : ' pt Lord, would the gnat measure of Catholic Emanele°l ' i have been passed by a Reformed Parliatrient?--40ear.)_ ty do not consider that it would. I offer my conjectot7 ; p The Noble Earl has not offered his.—(Cheers.) I be t i i : : I.l ° therefore, that I may hear from him, or from some of 0 It , Nob'e Louis near him, his conjectures respecting the nap , I t h r e tars to which I have adverted.—(Hear, hear.) A re Y: le p. Lord-hips prepared to make an entire change in the ef . ttio : tllttt t ei representative system, simply upon the conjeettireS nlh.„, Noble Earl.—(Great cheering.) No. Thisis my 0 r i, . ti 4: tion ; I oppose all measures which propose to alter l e d, / t o ' if you leave uninjured all the ancient rights;siroPlY thing.—(Caeers.) If you leave schedule B untonch.....t, I,cl, diT icif : ing your disfranchisement against those boroughs sc t o. ,: are incontestably nomination boroughs, would Ibe sabich tar fled ? Would you stand blameless? No. The injorY vi a, ~,-,.. you have done is irremediable. Ido not speak ail? ,-, /0.,.., h e but of proposing the measure.—(Cheers.) ships may prevent some portion of the evils which 1 5 4 1 . " -- f ~,g . 11$ °. ' ' lotherwise result, by not permitting the Bill topsaf men he law; but, my Lords, neither you nor the migh t a lo a all can revoke the mischief of proposing it.--( VerY wat 4 1"1 cheering.) It is for this I blame the Noble Earl, thatlior of the shadow of any reason which could a itisfy any i oug ht ou t able man, he has done that which no Government ° 7O) N 1 to do. He has proposed a measure which I lame n t „,„. fri allow it is equally dangerous to adopt and to ofrcjecdindr 4 (Great cheering. ) The Noble Earl is a man guished talent; I have . heard him but seldom °Ss 0, House—but seldom is it that I have not heard bit e r Pi pleasure. I should have been happy to see his ab i . ii ;j, 4 o u Id at ployed in directing the affairs of thi s country--" f tube °I have been delighted to see him guiding the ya wl o cbe a ; oi State through the sea of troubles on which it wasiLn,,As 8 ' but Ido really think, however great might be the , 1 . 0 ',. ti it could have been his fortune to confer upon usr t hig ) I 11 position would cancel all obligations.—(Hear, he ar was li say 'his " more in borrow than in anger." I neve r l. 1 in a situation to stand as a rival to the Noble f a f f t aa t never was hia political enemy. I wished thaticiest ( strength of the Noble Duke's Government vsas su s i g h) to carry on the affairs of the country he s hould On with, ' plover. But findina this was not the case, I he 4 ': he hes ; pleasure that the Noble Earl had been advanced ° " - t - bill' ' of the Government. I was ready if passible to stipP e rt the 1 I trusted net in Mr. Grey of ninety-three, butt 1 Olt l ' Lord Grey.—(Hear, bear.) I trusted in In lecls rel ! and Ido now believe in his sincerity when he r ig , ' that in proposing this most sweeping measure o u t F OY P and of confiscation, he is not proposing rnore--0 bi! 4 posing any thing contrary to what he put forth ' ri , 1 it Majesty's Speech.—(Hear, hear.) Still, my flii t think there is nothing to justify the priuciple $ l o i t sr t main portion of the Bill.—(Loud cheers.) I,llepatis° im of the Noble Earl, when he assumed the cln e o we 4 ior the Government—a situation which in a gee et eoc e g ii such as this must always be regarded with high r e t ;i e eto t —was one which might well be considered a° ; 3 ;1 , 1 0 , l , peculiar envy. He had it in his power to co ° ash P g ' and aermaaent good upon the country.---( Cir e- t . ae 11$‘ I stood balanced, as it were, betwei n twoararties! rm .. I dicals and the party which objected to all B , ,e' ° Tight 1 party wh'ell, I think, was wrong.—(Hear.) rt;saed,sl have introduced a measure which would have 11 10 el 1 large a portion of those who can be satisfied wi lt !, . 1 thing as this Bill can possibly satisfy, and he tnigwboal reconciled to Relot in a larger proportion of those ir Ole dissarisfi -d with the present Bill. He might he Ye tt hos t l the valuable support of a large portion of those .der ,4 called the conservative party, arid might ha v iL e f j lO Ol ,l them to rally round his standard.—(Cheers.) dead P he might have stood between the living and the , the r in my conscience, I believe, he might have etrtior plague. —(Laud cheers.) (Here the Noble Pl o t Ile T h h a i s s, bro m u y gh L t o u ri s l . s, i i t s is th i e n s m t o a r t r Noble. Earl a passage fr• m a Latin author, which we (lid nthicicui llis - eosv ior sa w ypeo .;: tti Noble Earl will probably remember, that o ... . bfi t aertr, ' other House of Parliament he was taking . ut i v " - will',;l ' using language which Mr. Pitt thought tatra: he a 01,8 inoculation of the principles of those who were w hich" r a ' radicals, he gave him a warning—a "og warm pa ean. may recollect. He told him to beware of that . f ;aor a . which theme was neither honesty, nor heart, 0 0t 1b 0r : r y beware of it, because it was a party that was eq":„(1 1 1:a to talent and to mind, wherever it might apags r ' gl ay s'oo I think that what the Noble Earl is doing, n°"" t a Waif intention of doing, will give a degree of streng tra i, r to radicals which he will never be able to Th e y 109'04 authorities abg re the leaders of that party ""tl# l , - of support this Bill, not because we are satisfied, rot ° a ia if a change to this extent he once effect ed, the d e F t to work is easy.—(Cheers.) If the carriage 1$:-ets.sigts, motion at this pace, it must, by its o wn 1 00—e 0 IP; p hurried down the precipice.—(Cheers.) If /,: e oas' 0 0 them, why persist in a measure that must be 11 ,,:? P e , 'lie you do not believe them, what are their groooTectdoot doubt their intentions ? Oh, no ; that I rl'iS 0 ° bog indeed a sin.—(Loud cheers.) My Lords, 1 4;00 "Cie their intentions ; but I at the same time con" if, thy that should they hereafter come into collision halos/ te l a vernment, their power will be broken in the airing all.. will ensue.—(Hear, hear.) My Lor ds, o I rt il t ioas ae on sion to the details, have thus stated my o br - bat lt or principle of the measure, and I do no t think 'l4OlO be consistent with my duty to myself, your 1" .. ..) !ell the country to vote for the Bill.—(Loud ebee'laliat Noble Earl told us the Bill must pass, or, if fl tl oif f atr as efficient.—( Year, hear, hear.) No 13 '", ibis,. til t which does not carry disfranchisement as fa : bo rt "0 14 sure, can be deemed as efficient. Nothing be , is v Bill, we are told, can succeed, What h0pe,10,0114 1,1, of doing any good by amendments in t be liti o s til 0 00 (Great eaeering.) In the other House it , tae 0 ; TO, the Gov( r n 'tient that they would recei ve , ° ledg e , ft° . amendment. But how did they redeem th a. p i o t sotacct/ a single amendment did they consent to, en d p ut ' I LO; ful trifle which in very shame they n' tl ' an i iP 'tf (Cheers) —save upon the one occasion, wheat n' be amendment was cat 6..41 against them 1 1:4 tit, fil their own friends—an amendment of w a , m a i- e olon';atr a Earl does not approve.—(Loud cheers.) 1";pal$010, says the people are tar the Bill. He has i' l l a l the . 0 tb, 1 of bribery. I now ask him, was there eve: f 4l,erflas , ', of bribery any thing to the extent of the L' ao per' a o " Bill, which he positively directs to 5 00, 0 0 f p 00,0 1 (Loud cheers.) He declares a certain chaos: pot ' lit ") , be alone the electors of the kingdom; 80 (11e 3r ,' 01 1 4 bribe to induce them to be fur the Bill bat rs, But even with all this, while I adinit tb il l, SO I SCO °I O I general feeling that there should be a ell' llP i e jous e t orns a a no small change, in the constitution 0f ti re a syn . '? ~f coons, I must declare that I do not see e ll 'f a yoo r 0 try 1 the people being as decided as they vg re :,.) i t t , g Bill now before your Lordships.--(elle.e„i a t 51, 1 ,;, tO if have been presented, and I ' gi g ': a or e bell treat petitioners with respect; they have c° 3l i tiel o ;i heard and to be attended to ; but wl'e ° aht,eet.it o I us, we must consider the nature of the of Jo gre 60 2 0 o i If it should happen to be a subject I t c oo Pe r h ie difficult, anti complicated a n ature, t h , If and t he f s" the highest talent, the highest ilifornrat° ' t he ve'' d o, knowledge—possessing, in addition T o w i t iali lo ne o r, knowledge of the mind and heart of o r apply theln'd f, make a good politician—when tbeY : o neot , a .00r. its consideration, are involved in einhnrri...h ~..gighty !_ i ii shrink with awe from a matter of su i v iety . e t the; I / and are to the last doubtful of the pror r el r the s he; sion, may we not, with all respect °" they be P, 0 ,6(i Cene r send us those petitions, doubt wh ,beer 6.) V rtgo: o) qualified to judge and to advise? c .. ' - ' OlO t hose Pe .) titions conic, with few excevticias, timei )01. sc' te s iaol r ir whom the bribe is given--fen„in__land, and Oaf i" though I admit that this class in r : A:a ia, are oul. since the schoolmaster has been to ° the exclusive r ol/ gent, and have a better claim they are for the ts, aeo , than in other countries; but as . which they acquire which i" employed all day in that labour_ li)' Ited with an intuit,: I , 0 , subsistence, unless they be l a is does not rea ch t e oPe f i of acquit ing knowledge which leisure and better loofa, orders, those who have more capable of I' f(OT be slides to learn, they cannot _ .vhat cot they tea 7 0;. opinion upon the Bill.—(Hear.). gives then' vet II I . a ° . know about the Bill, except that it brew. , - 0 0 i i A • ill give diem cheap then they are told it on rest cap u pon s ti 01 0 1 1 a imself to them with a presents b and the other e t he 1 two loaves of bread, one lag?, t oil will hit' hav e d if you vote for such a candy., te a Y oi. ..,,T) o ly ~.o.r i ' ''' 1 ,01 'r ha loaf; but if for the other candidate, y d tbus P."; sif small one. Thus are they delude -. 5 0 , 0 pre , a false excitement, and by the exertion I it onnecesf n sufficien