The Sun. — London, England, 1856-06-18 00:00:00

onvictions, or the creed of their parents. If lam right in thus reasoning, and the right hon. gentle Man opposite is, I am sure, following me, you have the religious ele ment to preserve, and there is the religious difficulty to be avoided. The religious element you have preserved by giving your pant to religions bodies only, and the reli gious difficulty you have avoided by extending those grants to every one of the religious bodies without excep tion, for if you make an exception, thenthere is one class of people who may be exposed to a system of education in which the parents do not agree, since you give schools to which the children of the other classes may go and be educated in their own religion. These are the great prin ciples on which yort have acted—encouragement to edu cation —encouragement to private efforts—large contri butions fromthe public funds to assist those efforts—no compulsion on any children to attend any public school, and no exclusion of anyreligious sect from aparticipation in those grants. Those principles are essentially just. They are so just that I cannot conceive how you can still withhold the application of them from any class of people— only one class of people, and that class, I regret to say it, the members of a portion of the United Church of England and Ireland. (Cheers.) And, why do you withhold any portion of the education grant from that class of people f It is net because they are not willing to assist you in promoting the education of the people, because no class of men are more willing to promote its object than the Irish clergy. (Hear.) It is not because they refuse to submit to your religious inspection. That they are willing to accede to as soon as you give them a portion of the funds. (Hear.) Neither is it because they wish to force children to agree to their formula or their Creed ; for by the rules of the Church Education Society, not one of thode formulas shall be imposed on any child whose parents object. (Hear, hear.) Then why do you refuse ? I think the members of this house will blush while they hear it. Because they require—conscientiously require—in carrying out the great purposes of education, that the Scriptures shall not be excluded from those schools. I cannot believe that such a system will be long permitted. I appeal to you whether it is just ? I appeal to you whether it is consis tent with your own principle of action? I appeal to Eng lishmen to say, would they allow such a system to pre. Tail in England? If not, then I ask you whether y will permit it to continue in Ireland, if you can meet the difficulties which have been urged? This condition to pre clude the schools to which I refer from any participati in this grant is so harassing, so unjust, and so unreason able, that if it ware not for one reason which I have of en heard addressed to this house I do not believe there could be a single objection to the resolution which I intend to propose. But I have heard, however, one argument urgt d .agaiest what I ask for, which, if true, is a very sound one. The objection is that what I ask for would destroy this combined system of education in Ireland, which yen have taken so much pains to establish. Now, I shall presently show you how this combined system of edu cation of which you are talking, does not exist in those vested and non-vested schools to which you lend your aid ; but that in many cases the system is almost a sepa rate one ; and I shall further show you that in those schools to which I ask you to lend the aid of a participa tion in the grant, the system of combined edbeation is carried on, and they in fact carry out your wishes with reference to a combined system of education. Without desiring unnecessarily to occupy the time of the house, I feel that it will be necessary for me to make a very brief review of the progress of the system of national education in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) The present system of national education was established in 1830 as a substitute for a system that had prevailed be fore in what were called the Kildare-place schools. The object of that system, as stated by those who are its authors, by those who supported it, and by those who are familiar and acquainted with it, was to give the benefits of education as extensively as possible to the peer of Ireland. That was the first objee, and, consistently with that, to unite as much as possible the children of dif ferent religious creeds in the same school without any dis turbance of their religious principles. (Hear.) Now these national schools were, as I said before, a substitute for the Kildare-place schools; and the reason why they were sub stituted for the Kildare-place schools—the reason why the latter were superseded was this—that in those schools, which extended throughout the length and breadth of Ire• land, which were, in fact, universally spread through mt the country, .here was a preliminary condition that the Scriptures should be read. (Hear, hear.) Well, objections were taken to that condition on the part of Roman Ca tholics. They objected to it on the principles of their own Church which does not permit the study of the Scriptures without the assistance of their clerical supe riors, It was to satisfy the conscientious opinions of the Roman Catholics that the system was altered by the in. troduction of the present system in this way—by exclud ing from the schools the Holy Bible—the free use of the Holy Bible. (Hear.) In acceding, however, to the conscientious convictions of the Roman Catholics, which would not admit of the frets use of the Scriptures in the schools to which their children were sent, you went into the opposite extrerne—(hear)—for neither the Presby terian, nor the Wesleyan, nor the members of our own Church would assent to the rule that the Scriptures should not be admitted into their schools. (Hear.) Now observe, to satisfy the conscientious convictions of the Roman Catholic, you must exclude the Scriptures ; and to meet the objections taken by the Presbyterians and the Protestants, you have agreed to admit the Scrip tures into the schools, thus materially altering the fundamental principles upon which this system was adopted. (Hear, hear.) Several great changes have taken place in that system, and the only change which I am asking of the house is onec irresponding—l mi g ht almost say ide n ti ca l— w i t h the themes which you have adopted in favour of other classes. (Hear, hear.) When the system was first established, the great object being joint-instruction, Lord Derby, then Lord Stanley, brought forward the only means by which that object could be accomplished. He foresaw that if you were to have a real bona file joint instruction you must have joint management ; and, accordingly, you will find in his celebrated letter to the Duke of Leinster this state ment—that inasmuch as the great object was to unite the children of different denominations together (these are nearly the words of his letter), and inasmuch as that would mainly depend on a joint application for the grant, and a joint management, he !required, as a fun damental rule, one of these three things :—Either the application was to come from the Protestant and the Roman Catholic clergymen of the parish, cr it was to come from the clergy of one denomination and the parishioners of another ; or it was to come from the pa rishioners and two denominations. Now, the object of Lord Derby was exactly what I have stated—to insure joint management, bringing with it joint instruction cor Repent on a joint application for the grant. Here, how ever, commenced your first step, and if the house will permit me to say so, I believe I am stating nothing but what I can prove out of those two great volumes which contain the proceedings on the inquiry into the system before a committee of the House of Lords. (Hear.) The Presbyterians objected to this joint application ; they insisted that they were entitled to a portion of the grant on individual application. Thus the fundamental prin ciple was coming to an end. (Hear.) The Presbyterians were authorised to apply for a grant without being joined by any other denomination. The result has been, in the words of Mr. Cross, the able secretary of the National Board, that the applications are now, and have for a long time been, coming from one denomination of Christians • and further , in the w or d s o f M r . C ross, the pre - co ndition to which I have adverted as the fun damental rule of the system has become a dead letter. (Cheers.) Now, that was the first change. The second great change you made has an immediate bearing on the motion now before the house. (Hear.) When the sys tem was originally established, it was intended essentially for the purpose of having a combined system of secular instruction, with a separate religious education, to be given at a distinct hour. And it was also deemed al essential rule —as necessary as that to which I have just referred —that all national schools should be vested in the National Board, and that they should go by the Dame of "vested schools." Now the Presbyterians again objected. lam quoting the evidence of Mr. Cooke and Dr. Henry. They said, "If we have schools, we have a right to have them under our own power." That ob jection was attended to, and the schools, instead of being vested schools, as they were intended to be, were allowed to become what are now called "non -vested schools." (Hear, hear.) Instead of being a system of combined instruction, through the medium of schools vested in the board, and carried on by a grant obtained on joint application, the system has become one of "non vested schools" carried on by a grant obtained on the ap plication of a single individual or a separate denomina tion. To such an extent has this been the case that out of 5000 schools, or nearly that number, which are men tioned in those two great volumes, only 1,600 are vested schools ; the renaainderbeing non-vested schools. (Hear.) Now what has been the c msequence of that ? Why, that You have no system of combined education now in opera tion. That system is entirely done away with is those schools. ( 1 -lea na st ad h e e m ar..) That has been effected by that alteration could not, and wouldu""ur of the Presbyterians, who schools snhjee) not., consent to have their tedxotnuesc,tnih!,lsrolling power of the board. • (Hear, hear, w i i s il the very hinge of the question, perhapi the house upon p i a t rd ni me for being specifidin my observatio ns for referring to evidence that will demonstrate' an d tlse truth of my assertion. The first evidence to which I shall refer in support of the representation that the system of combined education has been done away with by thin concession to the Presbyterians is that of Archdeacon Stoptoerndh.a. t 1 e s hee well-known gentleman. Although this very rev. g man was very averse to the national system at firs`, - has since b ecome one o f its stoutest advocates and fore, when citing his authority, I am nut quotin g f rom a witness partial in my own case. In pages 4,585 and 4,588 of the blue books I find these questions put to Archdeacon Stopford, and the following ans wers given by him in reply thereto : " You are aware that the system as originally contem plated comprised only vested schools? —I am. " You are aware that subsequently the non-vested sys tem was introduced and added to the other ! —Yes. bular statement, which furnished the committee with the amplest materials for judging of those schools which were under joint management, and those which were under separate management ; and from which they could see at a glance whether the schools - bad separate or united education. Speaking then of Roman Catholic and Protestant schools, how many do you think were under joint management? Why, there were 4,600 schools in all, and of these only 48 were under joint management. Lord Derby asked question 120 : "De I rightly understand the returns you have now read as showing that the whole number of schools under joint management is only 43 of persons of different religi ous denominations?" The answer is that "up to the date specified in these returns there are very few schools under joint management, and I should add, as far as my experi ence goes, those under joint management have given the committee more trouble than any others, for they have found it very difficult to unite parties of various religious opinions." So that here you have not only testimony to the effect .that the combined system is not carried on, but you have the secretary himself saying, the greatest difficulty we have experienced is, attempting that which we know to be impossible in England, and which of course would be impossible in Ireland. Now we have often bad dis cussions in this house upon the subject before, and it has often been attempted to obtain official and accurate information as to whether this system was separate or waited, but without avail. A return was moved for in the House of Lords in the year 1835, 20 years ago, in order to have that information furnished to Parliament ; but the answer to the motion was that it would be con trary to the spirit of the instructions given to the board to furnish it ; and from that time down to the time when Lord Eglinton acquired the information as Lord-Lieu tenant of Ireland, the return was never furnished. It was at length produced, however and may be found in the appendix to these volumes. It shows that in three out of the four provinces of Ireland there is no such thing as united education. In Connaught the proportion of Roman Catholic to Protestant children in the national schools is as 31 to 1 ; in Leinster as 37 to 1 ; and in Munster as 90 odd to 1. This is a return which has been furnished by your own officers, and yet we are told that We are doing injustice to the clergy of Ireland by dis turbing the combined system. I have poitted out two great changes in the fundamental rules of this system which you have made, and rightly, to carry on education r satisfy the conscientious convictions of others. But are these the only changes you have made ? No. The Pres byterians had a third objection. They objected to the choice of the books, whether secular or religious , beirg under the control of the board ; They objected also that they had not the right of using the Holy Scriptures in their schools. What was the answer given to these objec tions ? It was this, that the Presbyterians should In their schools have the power, subject of course to information being given to the board and to the non alteration of their rules afterwards, of choosing the ; books they wished to lye ; and with regard to ,the Scrip tural part of the question—l am now citing the evidence of Dr. Cooke—that they ehould begin their school busi ness w:th preyer, and use the Scrii tires and extracts from Scripture in school hours. That i 3 in the evidence of Dr. Cooke. My right hon. friend (Mr. Horonan) looks astonished, and well he may ; but I am so thoroughly convinced that I am right, that I do not scruple to give you every argument you can urge against lie. The only answer you can give , to show that this is a distinction from the case to which I have adverted is, that whilst it is true the Presbyterians say they use the Scriptures in their schools, yet they do not compel any child to read theni. Yes, that is the distinction made, and the argument against me and those who advocate the same cause that in the Church schools we require as a sine qua non that the Scriptures should be read. Nuw, I meet that argument by this observation. If these were the only schools in Ireland which, like the Kildare-p'ace schools, required the Scriptures to be read in every one of them, and by every child, then your argument ought to prevail; but, inasmuch as every other denomination of Chrstiene have got their own schools—inasmuch as the Chur_h merely wishes to educate her children according to her own views, and in her o wn way, not a single child who objects to that rule need go to the school, cenee quently the objection fal:s to the ground. I have pointed out to you the changes you have made in this system. But you say that you cannot accede to my application, because it would have the effect of deetroyieg the cem • bided system of education in Ireland. I have told you that it would do no such thing. But where, I ask, is the combined system ? I will tell you where it is. It is in the Church Elucatiou Society. The very schools you neglect are the schools which carry into effect your own principles, and that much better than your own schools. (Cheers.) What testimony you require as to that you may find at page 6,822, where the numbers of Dissenters, Church children, and Roman Catholic children who have been in the Church schools from 1848 until 1853 are set forth. And here, again, I will give you . the benefit of answers which you may contend go against my own case. (The right hon. gentleman here read again from the secretary's examination portions of evidence to the ,effect that the number of Roman Catholic children at tending schools was diminishing ; that the attendance of those children was at its highest point in Use year 1848, when there were of Church children 58,000, of Dissen ters 15,000, and Roman Catholics 46,000 ; that in 1849 there were 58,000 Church children, 15,000 Dissenters, and 37,000 Roman Catholics ; in 1850, 60,000 Church children, 15,000 Dissenters, and 33,000 Roman Catho lics ; in 1851, 59,000 Church children, 14,000 Dissen ters, land 29,000 R )man Catholics ; in 1852, 61,000 Church children, 15.000 Dissenters, and 28,000 Roman Catholics ; and in 1853, 61,000 Church children, 15,000 Dissenters, and 22.000 Roman Catholics.) Now it is perfectly true that the prop o rtion o f R oman ,Catholic is smaller in 1853 than in 1848—(hear, hear, from an Irish member)—but as the hon. member evidently at taches weight to the fact, perhaps he will allow me to read the next question and answer in order to explain it. (Here the right hon. gentleman read another extract for the purpose of showing that the diminution in the Ro man Catholic attendance was in some degree, owing to the withdrawal of schools from connection with the Church Education Society for the purpose of establishing schools of an entirely missionary character in the west of Ireland.) This shows undoubtedly a diminution of Roman Catholics in proportion to Protestants on a com parison of the years 1848 and 1853 ; and you will bear in mind the reason for that difference when the argument is put forward, that the teaching of the Scriptures is with a view to proselytising Roman Catholics, and that the priests would not allow the children to go to the schools on that account ; moreover, that where the schools are merely intended for missionary or proselytising pur poses, the children are withdrawn from the Church Edu cation Society. I said, however, that I would show you that the combined system does exist in the. Church schools and not in the national schools ; and in proof of this I turn to evidence that cannot be doubted-- the evidence of the Right Hon. Alexander MgDonnell, the chief paid commissioner of education in Ire land. Observe what he says on the subject. He is asked, question 1920. (The right hon. gentleman then read an extract from the evidence of Mr. M`Donnell, to the effect that the attendance at the Church Education Society's schools was very large ; and that the national system had not attained any great degree of success with regard to providing a united or combined system of educa tion.) I think, then, I have proved in the plainest possible manner that to talk of supporting the combined system of education as a reason for refusing the address I am about to move is, I might almost say, absurd. (Cheers.) The combined system does not exist in the national non-vested schools. It does exist in the Church schools, yet it is to those schools you are denying any portion of the educational grant. I will now call the attention of the house to the distinct principle upon which, I think, it ought to sonde to my motion. I have shown to you that the Kildare-place schools were entirely done away with, and the present system established, out of re gard to the conscientious convictions of the Roman Catholics. I have shown you that that system when so established was materially relaxed in its fundamental rules out of - a proper regard to theconscientious convictions of the Presbyterians. And to neither Presbyterians nor Roman Catholics do I grudge the advantages they enjoy. (Cheers.) On the contrary, I hope they will be continued to them. (Hear.) Bat this Ido say, that in carrying on this great work of education, whilst you pay respect, and properly pay respect, to the conscientious convictions of our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, you ought to pay the same respect to the conscientious oonvictions of the mem bers of the Protestant Church in Ireland—(cheers)--and that, having relaxed your system to overcome the objec tions of Presbyterians and Roman Catholics, it is not very wise, even if it were just, to refuse to attend to the rea sonable objections, equally conscientious, which are en tertained by the members of your own Church. (Loud cheers.) You have thus accommodated your system to meat the objections of those from whom in religion you differ, whilst you will not accommodate it, even in the smallest degree, to gratify the honourable, the sincere, the praiseworthy convictions of those with whom you agree. I am as confident as that I stand here, that whether you accede to or refuse my request now, the time must come when you will certainly have to comply with it. (Cheers.) And now having said this much upon the great alterations you have made in your system, it is but reasonable that we should ask ourselves for what purpose you are now refus ing any portion of this grant to the members of your own Church? (Hear, hear.) It. is right that I should ask my self this question, and that every member of Parliament should ask himself the question—why are the members of the Established Church alone to be put, as it were, under a ban of exclusion? Have they done anything that disen titles them to your favour and regard ? Have they done anything that should subject them to coldness and neglect ? Sir, I believe there is no body of men in the kingdom who are more conscientiously desirous of promoting popular education than the Irish clergy. (Cheers.) They have been discouraged and they have been discountenanced by the Government and by Par liament (hear, hear)—but in spite of that discouragern• nt and in spite of that discountenance they have their schools in many parts of the country. (Cheers.) I un !,erst_a_nd they have up war d s o f 1800 schools, and upwards iOO 000 children are b e i ng e d uca t e d at this moment ; tthatete.h;ristyria na :a expended nthe ait m em uc p h t to money raised by volun oleectaccomplish: this great t the annual cost of these schools is tshysetseemciorfeettetaatnio4l A s b ove all, they are promoting a united nearly 100 ,0901. so excellentlti rtPl'ulaneg more than you yourselves ; and under aome.. I ask you whether you can longer refuse to do oa l f willwasoiriks assisting tell g T y h o the u re em w what ne by and bye—for tho mcarry inganyna,:2tom.otord?,,, otfhialtealinnlagc;viptleirentkines out question cannot hat. t wr u eh ; o bl )hn n as c v e ew o h f hiy t t h h e eyro c tu o or m b b :e i r n ue e l l t s y a s i t l e y m°: vuelp opposed e( l o m anyin attentiont idoitnor changed their views; especi the evidence of a gentleman, the brother of a former mem ber of this house, and wh o was much resp e cted in mean Mr. Buxton. He went to Ireland for the purpos e of ( I f inquirier , into the subject himself; and he went—with an unprejudiced mind ought I to say? No, hat. t with a prejn diced mind, for he was of opini o n tha t would be dan gerous to disturb the combined system. He returned, how ever, with a thoroughly different opinion, gave his evidence before the House of Lords to that effect, and has Since pub. liehed a pamphlet oa the subject, in which ho decl ares that he thinks you must give some port ion of the grant to the members of the Church in Ireland. Turn to questions from 4119 to 4435, and you will find what I state to be strictly correct, He is asked to state to the committee the extent of the modification which he would room: " 3. That the adoption of the rul s as to religious instruc tion in free or vested schools be earnestly recommended to pa trons of non-vested schools receiving aid from the board." " 4. That the board be authorised, if they shall think fit, to grant similar advantages to those enjoyed by the non vested schools to any schools now existing or hereafter to bo built, whatever their regulations as to religious instruction, the patrons of which shall be willing to place them in connec tion with the board, and to receive officially the visits of the Government inspectors." Now, these two resolutions are embodied, in fact, with the condition annexed, to which I will presently refer, in the address lam about to ask the house to agree to. Lord Granville also proposed a set of resolutions, which, to a certain extent, were in conformity with those of Lord Derby. But those resolutions have been subsequently with drawn, and in the room of them the noble lord has pre pared others which do not mention the point he proposed to deal with in the first sit of resolutions he submitted to the committee. The nature of the first set of resolutions we can only ascertain through the instrumentality of a member of the committee, who has published them to the world, and, as far as I can learn, the accuracy of the ver sion so published has never yet been contradicted. I be lieve, it, indeed, to be a cDrrect representation of what the noble lord proposed; and, as such, I will read it to the house. I take it from the charge of the Bishop of Ossory— " He (Lord Granville) suggested, as what appeared to be the best plan for securing both objects, that church education schools should receive grants of school books and school re quisites from the National Board; and that the benefit of in spection by the officer of the board, and of access to the train ing school should also be extended to them. He added, how • ier, that Government would only be prepared to act on these suggestions if they were recommended by a clear majority of the committee, and also accompanied by a recommendation that under no circumstances should a grant in money be made to any school, either for building or for the teacher's salary, unless it were conducted strictly in accordance with the rules of the national system." The difference between Lord Derby's and Lord Granvill's plans is plain and simple • Lord Derby would give pay ment to the master, as well as books and other requisites; Lord Granville would give only books ' buildings, and in spection. He adds that the Government could only act on this suggestion if it was recommended by the majority of the houses. I have reason to believe that this resolution was not proposed, because the Government did not think they had a clear majority. The difference between Lord Derby's and Lord Granville's propositions is only in de gree, not, in principle. I save since had some conversation with Lord Derby, and I know he concurs in the resolution now; that he thinks it a reasonable modification of the system, to meet a just demand. But he says, also, that he thiuks it would bps reasonab'e to annex a condition to the grant—namely, to make it more or less dependent upon the progress of the schools. The Bishop of Ossory has stated that the whole difference between Lord Derby and Lord Granville is, that Lord Derby would give salary as well as buildings and boAs ; while Lord Granville would give buildings, books, and inspection. The only difference, therefore, is, that Lord Dells)/ would give money grants. That is, however, the object of my motion ; which is for this house to address her Nl ., jesty to enable the members of the United Church of England and Ireland to obtain from the public funds some aid in furtherance of that g od world` which they are carrying out more in consonance with our desire than the national system is doing. I will nut say any more. I will not spoil this plain statement by tiling to add anything further to it in the way of illus tration or recommendation. I know that the House of Commons, when it sees its way, will do an act of justice. I believe the power of . ..acting justly is now in our hands, as well as the opportunity. And, believing that, I shall therefOre simply put my motion. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman then moved " That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that such modifications may he made in the rules of Vie national s ystem of education na Ir e l an d as will extend the advantages now enjoyed by non•vosted :schools to any other than 'rooted aohools now Mr. HORSMAN said that the proposition of his right hon. friend opposite had been brought forward with so much ability that it was almost difficult for the house to resist it. But he felt that there was so much difference, both in principle and policy, between the views of the Go vernment and those of the right hon. gentleman, and the consequences of adopting those last views would be so dire estrous, that he should be disappointed if he failed to con vince the house that it would be doing an act of injustice to Ireland if it did not reject the motion. The right hon. gentleman had said that the present system had failed in Ireland. He (Mr. Horsman) trusted that he should be able to show the contrary. The right hon. gentleman had said the system was not an united system. He (Mr. Horsmar) would show that it was perfectly united. The right hon. gentleman had said that the motion would lead to harmony. He should show that it would lead to dis cord. The right hon, gentleman said that his measure only was permissive in allowing the reading of the Bible to Protestants. He should show that it Made the reading of the Bible obligatory on all. The right hon. gentleman had cited authorities to show that they ought to abandon the principle on which they had hitherto acted. He should cite authorities to show that that system ought not to be relaxed, and that it was their duty as well as their policy to keep it up. He perfectly agreed with those who said that religion should be the basis of education. But he differed entirely from those who sail that religion did not enter largely into the system of instruction pursued in the national schools. The Bishops of Oxford, of Dine ham, of London, and of Carlisle, had all taken up the principles of religions teaching in their schools, and had given them their sanction. The light honourable gen tleman had said that the difficulty was as to the funda mental principle of national education, and those princi ples were with respect to schools of vested and non-vested rights, and the rights to be allowed to the patrons of those schools. Now he (Mr. Horsman) was not accustomed to consider these as fundamental principles. To prove this he would go further back, and show what their past expe rience had bejn, acknowledged that the education of the Irish people was a nationel concern, and with this view they bad legislated for many ages. Acts of Parliament bad been passed on the principle which then prevailed, that the ignorance of the Irish people was to be attributed to their religion, and that the conversion of the people was a necessary preliminary to their education, so much so, that by act of Parliament the Roman Catholic clergy were prohibited under severe penalties from imparting instruc tion to the people. The result was, that the Irish people were in a lamentable state • that before the present cen tury the schools were noted for disloyalty and for every kind of vice ; so that royal commissions and parliamentary committees were appointed one after the other to investi gate the cause, and to suggest remedies. All these came to the same conch +ion, that there had been no attempt to ex tirpate ignorance from Ireland, bat to promote prose lytism, and for that reason the people of Ireland stood aloof from the school. He begged the house to see how slowly, yet how strongly, the conviction on this point had been expressed. A royal commission had been issued in 1806, which had made its final report in 1812. It consist d of tie Archbishop of Armagh, the Archbishop of Cashel, .air. Corrie, the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer, Dr. Elric, the president of Trinity College, Richard Lovell Edgeworth, and ono or two others. Irdl these, with the ex ception of Mr. Edgeworth, were opposed to all concession to the Roman Catholic claims. There were two archbishops and one bishop among them. Yet, in 1812, long before any concession to the Roman Catholic claims was ever dreamt of, the commission reported that no plan of education could be carried into operation, unless its leading principle was not to attempt to influence or distill') the peculiar religious tenets of any part of the population. Here then was the ac knowledgment that the base of all education should be not to influence or disturb religious opinions. The second royal commission was issued in 1821. It was unanimous in its report, which said that iu a country where such ma terial differences in religion existed, schools should be established free from all suspicion of interference with religious feeling. The committee of the House of Com mons was appointed in 818, and in its report it says, that no system of education could be expedient, if it was calcu lated to influence or disturb the peculiar religious tenets of any part of the population. The committee then adopted the very words used by the first royal commission. In 1830 another parliamentary committee was appointed. That committee recommended that no farther time should be lost in giving the public the benefit of the experience and the recommendations of the commission of 1806 and the committee of 1828. It desired that no time should be lost in giving effect to the principle that non-interference with religions views was the only one to insure success in the education of Ireland. Were they, then, prepared to say that all these opinions were wrong ? because if they did not, they would not agree to the motion of his right hon. friend ; for if they were to do so, they would adopt the principle that it was right and advisable to interfere with the religious opinions of the people. The right hon. gentleman had referred t o th e Kild are - street Society. Ehat society had adopted the words of the committee of 1812, not to interfere with the religious tenets of any part of the population. Yet that society had failed, because it eoul.l not acquire the confidence of the people, when that confidence was necessary to its success. Yet all the difference between the Kildare-street Society and the Church Aducation Society, as far as the confidence of the public was concerned, was to the advantage of the former. The, former authorised no interference with religious opinion, the latter interfered with reli gious opinions. The former had a mixed board, composed of members of all denominations; the latter had a board composed solely of members of the Church of England. The school teachers . of one were of all denominations, while the school teachers of the other belonged exclusively to the Church. The Kildare-street Soolety authorised the Douai version of the Bible without note or comment—the Church Education Society permitted none but the autho rised version. The Kildare-street Society did not allow the formulary or catechism of the English Church—the Church Educ. ti , n Society allowed both the formulary and the cateehi m. So that as far as confidence was concerned, that coefidence was more likely to be secured by the Kil cl .I,re-street Society. Yet that society had completely failed. It had been found by the committee that in the sch sole of the Church Education Society there were 400,000 children, of whom 80,000 were Roman Catholics, while in the Kildare-street schools there were 39,000 Roman Catho lics to 29,000 Protestants, and this in a population almost entirely Catholics. The Kildare-street Society was given up, and the Government found it necessary, in 1830, to establish a new system. Lord Stanley on that occasion acted, not with any foresight of what the future condition of Ireland was likely to be, but in accordance with the re port of the commissioners, whose very words Lord Stanley adopted in his letter to the Duke of Lehister, in which he said that the system they then adopted was that of no interference with any religious opinions. Lord Stanley then proceeds to the system of the report of 1812, which recom mends the banishment of even the suspicion of proselytism. This Lord Stanley further inferred in his answer to the Synod of Ulster, and says, that there never was any ob jection to religions teaching in specified hours, but those hours must be specified to avoid any suspicion on the part of the Roman Catholics. His opinions seem to have gathered strength as he proceeded. He goes on, in a letter to the Dean of St. Patrick, to show that the object was to give to the Roman Catholics as extensive a knowledge of Scripture as was permitted by the reli gious circumstances, by means of a combined literary and a separate religious instruction. The system of Lord Stanley encountered great apposition at the outset—all the clergy of the Established Church opposed it—the Presby terians only gave their adhesion in 1840 the Roman Catholics still later, while a certain part of the Established Church still, as it appeared, held out against it. Ha did not understand his right honourable friend to say that the Roman Catholics and the Presbyterians had refused to avail themselves of the system, but that one section of the Established Church had refused to avail , themselves of it ; and he had asked whet crime they had committed that they should be thus excluded from educa tion. The answer to this was that the Government estab; lished a system which had been welcomed by all others, and it was their own refusal, in accsrdence with a conten tious spirit, which deprived them of the means of availing themselves of it. It appeared that when the system was established in 1833 there were 779 schools, while in 1852 there were 5,178 schools with 551,128 scholars. So suc cessfully had the system worked that two millions and a half of children had passed through the schools without an attempt at proselytising them. No single complaint had been made on this head, and the system had gone on until it was received by nine-tenths of the population of Ireland. The late census returns showed that wherever the system most prevailed there education was at its height: 11 ap peared that Ulster stood the highest on the list, where s t t h e e r r e and w e r 1 e 5 1 4 , 1 8 y 7 , 5 e s o c n ho o na s ig t n , e i x a t w c a b rn i c o h t Lei h e n r s e t w e r e , r e then 7 Mn e . 558. Of t'lle counties which had adopted the system the highest three were in Ulster, and it appeased that those who could not read or writ e formed in Ulster only from 20 to 24 per cent. of the population, while in Connaught it was from 70 to 75 per cent. ; but of the 8 lowest counties 5 were in Cennanght.and 3in Leinster. This said something in fa vour of the system of education of the national board. It began under great disadvantages. It had inflicted upon it severe blows by the secession of important member.), by the opposition of tLe clergy and landlords, yet it had suc ceeded because it was supported by the great mass of the people ; it had for the first time succeeded in rebutting the influence of the priesthood. The people in general gave their adhesion to the way in which the system was ad ministered. He must now refer to the rival system. When the grant was withdrawn from the Kildare -street Society, and the present system established, certain of the clergy joined in csrrying out locally a different system, and raised means for doing so. After a short time it was found that the central body was necessary, and in 1839 the Church Education Society was established. He would take the principle of that society on their own showing. The great difference bet teen them and the National So eiety lay in this, that in the latter the reading of the J 3 ible was permissive, while in the former it was copapui., statement made by the Home Secretary till the November following nothing was done, but in the course rf November Lord Derby communicated the result of his lauours to:the House of Lords. He stated, that dosing the recess Its and his colle.rgares in the Government, together wi h the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, had directed their at tention to this question. The Lord-Lieutenant had con sidered it Isis duty to devote greet attention to the sub ject, and that neither himself (Lord Darby) nor his noble friend (the lord-lieutenant) could see his way to any ehange that would not disturb the present system, which would be a very serious evil. The Government would not therefore bring forward any alteration which they thought must necessarily lead togreatevils which they world most sincerely deplore. Now, when the Earl of Derby made that statement, there ware three prelates connected with the Church Education Society in the House of Lords, lent not one word was said about the matter at the time. The Earl of Derby offere I a full inquiry, but it was not accepted. Honourable gentlemen opposite had seen their way clear enough in Opposition, but when in office they were struck with blindness. Now, after three years in Ospositien, they had recovered their vision, and came for ward with their plans. He (Hr. Herssnac) thought that too much importance could not be attached to the convic tiens of Lord Derby when it was remembered how these convictions were aro iced at. If, bowever, there was nay aosihority better than that of the Earl of Derby, it was un doubtedly that of the End of Eglettou, Vie Lord-Lieu tenant of reland under Lord Derby's Government, who eated ;hat, after the most unremitting attention to the sub ject, he could see no way by which the aarty of the noble earl could be satisfied without driving all the Roman Catho lic children from the schools—without driving, said the noble lord, 400,100 children from even the means of secu lar e bleat:ion. (Hear.) He (Hr. Horsiness) could not with held his tribute of esteem from Lord Eglinton. Ile went to Ireland a ereng party man. Ho went to Ireland to give effect to the views of his party, and on the subject of national education he was deeply pledged. He had not a single official adviser in Ireland who was net committed against the national system. If the noble lord had committed himself to viclent partisans and unsafe coml.. sel'ors, had he gone headlong into the passions of his party, he would ha ,, er committed a mistake which would have made his admieistration in Ireland a curse. Instead of taking that course, he applied his mescaline good sense to the subject, and ho made known his conclusions honestly and manfully to Lord Derby, thus saving his party from a great blunder, and his country from a greet calamity. For this the noble lord deserved the gratitude of his friends and what ho (Mr. Horsinan) was prepared to pay him, the respect of his opponents. (Loud cheere.) He had listened with !great attention to the speech of the right hen. gentleman who had introduced the subject that night, but there was a matter on which the right hon. gentleman had not touched—he had not attempted to reconcile his conduct as a member of Lord Derby's Government in 18:.2 with his opposition in. 1856. Could the right hon. gentle man deny that the plan which was under the consideration of his Government in 1852 was that of the Bishop of Os sory, and that the result of the adoption of that plan would have been, as Lord Eglinton had said, to drive 400,b00 Roman Catholic children from the schools ? Could he deny that that was the plan to which Lord Derby re ferred when he made his statement in the House of Lords ? And yet that was the plan which the right hon. gentleman now said he was eurprised the Government were unwilling to adopt. There had been no changes as regarded the right hon. gentleman and hie friends except that they were now denuded of the responsibilities of office ; but yet he came down to the house and advised the Government to adopt that plan which the Government of Lord Derby would not undertake, and to face all the calamities which they looked upon not only with apprehension but with dismay. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman had stated that the national system had entirely failed:as'a united system ; but ho was prepared to say that, as far as any rational expecta tion could be formed, it had eminently succeeded. Look ing to the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, it would be admitted that it was very difficult to establish a united system where the preponderance was so much on one side or the other. In such a state of things it could never be expected that they would have an equal number of children in their schools, but still the system had not failed, for its great object was to provide good secular instruction, and that it had accomplished. One reason why it had not proved so united 'a system as it might otherwise have been was, that the clergy of the Established Church of Ireland had done everything in their power to defeat it. The clergy had carried their opposition to the system to the fullest extent, and they had lost in consequence much of the sympathy of the laity ; for it would be seen that while in all other denominations the schools established by the clergy very far outnumbered those established by the laity, those established by the laity of the church far outnum bered those established by the clergy. (Hear, hear.) In all the provinces of Ireland there were only 156 church schools established by the clergy, whereas there were 452 established by the laity. But there was another fact still more remarkable, in the case of workhouse schools, which had been put by the laity, having the management of these unions, under the National Board. There were in Ireland 163 unions. in 13J of which the workhouse schools had been placed by the beard of guardiaes under the national board. The ci rgy of the Establish() I Church kept away from the national schools because they were opposed to their religious convictions ; but they did not keep away from the national schools of workhouses, which were con ducted upon precisely similar principles, because they were retained as chaplains to the boards of guardians. (Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) Now there was only one other point to which, in cost lesion; he would refer. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole) came forward in that house as the representative of the clergy, or of the church, and he asked why they should be excluded from the benefit of the grant? Ho (Ur. Horstnan) had before him the opinions, one after another, of the highest authorities in the State, all of them expressing their great disapprobation of the course the clergy of Ireland had taken. Lord Derby had expressed that opinion in very strong terms indeed. The Duke of Wellington and Sir IL. Peel had taken the same view of the case. Lord Eglinton boldly referred the failure of the system to the clergy. The noble lord had stated in strong terms that the clergy had hod opportunities they had thrown away. He (Mr. Horsman) wo add not say how long theclergy had had exclusive resources, or allude to any in i tating topics of that kind ; but he would ask the right her. gentleman what was the position of those he was now re presenting? There was a system of education established in Ireland by the Legislature, upheld by successive admi nistrations, which nine Governments had failed to touch: which two committees of the House of Commons had failed, to shake ; to which one public man after another had given' . his adhesion, and none so much as those who were strongest against it; and yet the clergy had set themselves in oppo sition to it. They had placed themselves in direct ante gonisna to it, and had clamoured for the abandonment of a principle which was admitted on all hands to be advan tageous to the country. Was it nothing that every public man who had held high office had condemned that opposi tion ? The clergy could not inculcate the religion which the people of Ireland believed, and would not teach what the Legislature supported. (Hear.) The principle laid down by Government was one from which they could never shrink. It involved freedom of conscience, and religious equality as the basis of sound education in Ireland. That was a principle upon which her Majesty's Government would never hesitate or falter. It was long fought for and at last tri umphed in England and ,Scotland, though reluctantly grented e and once g ranted for Ireland it should never be withdrawn. (Loud cheers ) Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, on the part of the Protestants of Ireland, effered their thanks to the right hon. gentle man member for the University of Cambridge (Hr. Wal pole), and to the right hon. baronet the member for the , 1 University of Oxford, for the efforts they had made to re- 1 dress hardship and injustice. Ho was also desirous of stet ing that the proposition male by the right hon. gentleman would have the effect of settling those long-disputed ques- 1 tions, and of removing that feeling of injustice which pre. 1 vailed amongst the people of Ireland. He deeply regretted that the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Horan% oi), in the tenour of the observations lie bad made should have departed from the moderate and conciliatory tone which characterised the speech of the right honourable gentleman who introduced the question. The sight hon. geatlernan had imptited to Lord Dolby inconsistency and some impropriety iu his conduct in reference to the ques tion. He had referred to the interview which the sight hon. gentleman the member for the University of Dublin (Hr. Napier) had bad with the noble lord, and said that he had allowed the period of his Administration to pass away without fulfilling the proteise he held out. The real facts of the case were that during Lord Derby's Administration there were no opportunities of having that inquiry which the noble lord was so anxious to support. No one could doubt that Lord Derby as the founder of the national system must have viewed with suspicion any plau by which its fundamental principles should be disturbed. (Hear.) It was no new system that the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Cambridge wished to intro duce, and it would not in any way disturb the present ar rangements. When the schools of Roman Catholics, Pres byterians, and others were deducted from the aggregate number, there would only remain about 1,300 schools to which the right hon. gentleman's principle would apply. The clergy of the Irish Church occupied a certain position in their parishes, and therefore felt it their duty to adopt the course they had pursued. The whole number of schools where the Scriptures were taught aas 673, but from that number must be deducted 79 of a mixed el a actor, 214 in which there were virtually no children except those beleng. ing to the Established Church, and 12'; vested school,. The number, therefore, of schOols in Ireland that would be af fected by the proposition of hit right hon. friend was only " Are yon not of opinion that while the principle of the vested schools was one of united education, the principle .of the non-vested schools wr.ts as clearly one of separate education ?—I think it was, and I think it was tacitly admitted by the board themselves in their sixth rep,rt ; for they said that such schools must be looked upon as bearing a peculiar religious aspect. " So that from the moment that the board began to give aid to the non -vested schools, they departed from the great kriaciplo of their system, which was united education ? Practically, they did establish a system of separate schools, under the name of a system of united education." Well, I have another testimony which is stlll more strong than that—the Secretary of the National Board himself. At the conclusion of his evidence he was asked if he had any more , to say, and these words cotnrnenced his an swer Perhaps I may be permitted to state, in con clusion to my examination, that the national system of rincation, as a united system, has failed to a consider able extent." In his answers to questions 119 and 120; too, there is a remarkable confirmation of this statenient, In answer to 119, quention he put in a ta . THE SUN LON.DON, WEDNESDAY EVEN_Iik:I. C 4 JUNE ..---...---- ,h mend in the rules,, and in reply he describes what was the . existing or hereafter to be established, whatever their sory. According to the rule of the National Board, Ro- • 253, and he would put it to the house whether that was a COll Itry ihTarkets. • hs feeliag of the clergy upon the subject. And now that I ' regulations may be as to the mode of religious instruc- man C a th o li cs m i g ht a b sen t th emse l ves from religious in- sufficient numb er t o warrant the bringing forward of that -o• re am dealing with that particular question, allow me to re- 1 tion ; provided that no children shall be compelled to struction, or mi g ht rece i ve th a t re li g i ous i nstruc ti on as th ey propos i tion. With respect to the national system, he did lo mind you that two years ago ITresented a petition to this learn any catechism, creed, or formulary to which any c h ose ; w hil e th e Ch urc h Ed uca ti on S oc i ety made rel i g i ous not complain of it, but when his right hon. friend stated, LIVERPOOL-JUNE 17. h ouse , s i gne d by 5,400 clergymen of the Church in Eng- : parent or guardian may object; and provided that the instruction a condition of admission, and superseded the and produced statistics to show that that system had been Dr land, praying that relief might be given to their brethren 1 p a t ro ns shall be willing to place such schools in connection authority of parent and ga srdian. It had been well said entirely successful, he must join issue with him. The hon. theAttotow - in Ireland, not from any desire to break up y our com bi ne d w ith th e b oar d, to permit the board's control over books that the two systems were incompatible. The society had gentleman then quoted the evidence of Inspector Mac• wheat was mostly confined to a few retail purel?` better re ~, system-not from any desire to proselytise R oman c a th o . t o b e use d i n general instruction, and to receive officially declared that it would not modify its rules to meet the ready, who was so highly spoken of by Mr. C ros s (th e se . generally the full prices of Tuesday last. Flour In I s n ßd ost . 'u lie or other children, but simply from the desire to see jus- the visits of the Government inspectors." views of the Government, and would continue to make the cretary of the National Board), given before the Lords'com- demand, but without alteration in value. 0 advance of at tics d one , cons id er i ng , as th e y expressed in that petition, Sir W. HEATHCOTE seconded the motion. The im. reading of the Bible a condition of admis s ion. The Arch- mittee for the purpose of showing that the standard of meal were in moderate request, and a further a nd besns that the clery of the Irish Church, in steadily refusing portanoo of this motion could hardly be disputed by any bishop of Cashelhas expressly admitted that it was a pro- education was anything but so high as might have been LI per .151 b and is per load established. Barley but sale s to connect themselves with the National Board under member of the house, and least of all by those who were selytising society when he said that its objects were to en- expected. He also quoted from the census of 1851 totown a y's anti market country trade,et a s a o n n d l y t a b e thin b n sin e gi c_iB attendance se ? : f t held for 21 par 601 b and is per qr. more money, but * were limited. Indian corn in fair request, but 6 d 32s 6(1 conditions which would prevent their teaching the attached to that system of education in Ireland. The lighten the people. Thi s was a d op ti ng ru l es w hi c h expe- show that whether the civic or rural districts were taken, holders asking 31s for prime yellow and mined, an ted• sr H o ly Scriptures, had acted in accordance with the prin- only objections he had heard to the motion were, that any rience had shown to be injurious. The statistics of the the highest points of education had been arrived at be d- ciples of the Church and in the fulfilment of their ordi- alteration in the present system would tend to break up society had shown what the result had been of its opera- tween the years 1817 and 1837. From that period to 1841 , to nation vows.. (Hear.) Whether they were right or united education in Ireland ; and the other was, that if it tions, and how unwise they were. In 1848, the year of tho standard fell considerably. There was large increase a Or HULL-JUNE 17. • wrong in that opinion it is not for me to say ; but it is for were adopted it wonlh tend to proselytism ; but he cond. the famine, the number of scholars at its schools was of those parsons who could neither read nor write between our Win e" ll le me to say that when gentlemen who niake such high and dered these objections were opposed to each other, and 120,000, and its income 37,000/. ;of these scholars 46.000 the ages of 16 and 25, in 21 countie s o f I r el a nd. There- We had a very small supply of wheat from he e e ices praiseworthy efforts in the cause of education, and who could not have any force together, because if they were were Roman Catholic. In 1849 its scholars were 111,000, fore_, in spite of that national system which had been to - day , and which met ready sale at 2s above to it 4.. at the fs" per qr. for best white, only a moderate business resul ve have such honourable and conscientious convictions. feel divided into separate schools there could be no chance of and its income 39.0001. In 3350 its scholars had decreased spoken of so highly by th e right hon. gen tl eman , ignorance paid last Tuesday. Foreign in good request e the ma t h' us th a t they cannot bring up the children of their flocks as proselytism. This question should not now b 3 considered to 108,000, audits income increased to 4',0001. • in 1.851 had greatly increased. Taking Wexf or d only, the increase advance noted down. Barley is dearer ; bean s seeh Liu' th e y ought to bring them up without the free use of the on the documents and reasons assigned twenty years ago, the scholars were 103,000, and the income 40,0 ;in 1852 of illiterate males was 4 per cent. bet ween thel and 1851, and few offering. Oats good to sell at qtwtarh - e h c akes let Scriptures, it is a little unreasonable to deny them a por- but on the present altered circumstances, which warranted The scholars were 105,000, and the income 40,0001.; in 1853 while in 1841 the scho o ls were only 44, b u t in 1851 there seed very firm, with a large business in both o- a .- wa r t ted• Du ti on of the grant on those grounds. This however, bY the change contemplated, and which, to a certain extent, the scholars had fallen to 99,000, while the incense . was were 108. In Wicklow th e increase was also 4 per cent., for forward delivery. Rape cakes scarce and way of parenthesis, before I finish Mr. Buxton's evidence. had been-recommended by the Commissioners. 44,0001. ;in 1854 the scholars were9s,ooo, and the income while the schools had increased from 39 to 72. In Clare The bone season about over: ' BO ii )W " One could not help feeling (says he), on visiting the Mr. KENNEDY objected to the motion of the right 44,0001. ; and in 1855 the scholars were 20,000, and the in- the increase of ignorance was 1 per cent., and the increase a s I id Protestant schools, that there was a great want of the hon. gentleman, and submitted the following amendment come 55,0001.; so that f r om 1848 t o 1855 the o: schools from 33 to 130. In the whole 21 counties, the Wheat, English, red 71 to 76 Peas, grey is. advantage which the state could give in the way of books and to the house in opposition to it :-"Whilst this house feels scholars had fallen from 120,000 to 90,000, while increase of schools had been from 1,505 to 2,971. With Ditto white 1 • "a B 1 k Sea.** '''' n 76 to 80 lensee , ae oh to b it apparatus, and salaries for teachers, and so on, it to be its duty to facilitate the extension of those advan- the income had increased from 37,000/, to respect to the clergy, they had suffered enough already Dantzic and Konigs- (Ditto Petersburgh ... Arch- Heir; then asked- tages now enjoyed by schools in connection with the Beard 45,1001. Moreover, the Roman Catholic children bad for their adherence to the high principle of maintaining berg 74 to 82 i Ditto Rigaand , e to 46 eta fallen from 46,000 to 17,000. The falling off was, there- the Bible in the schools, and he thought it was too hard Pomeranianandllam- angel .............. . * - A " . "On all these grounds you probably think it would be of National Education in Ireland, to other suitable schools and o r very desirable if there could be a settlement of the question now existing or hereafter to be established, it feels it to be fore, not from want of funds, but because they were act- that imputations should now be thrown out a.gainat them. burgh ! 11 which, without interfering with any good b e it smaller great, equally its duty to express its conviction that no such ex- ing upon false principles. He had thus shown, as far as If he was rightly informed, their patronage was now re- Danish,Holstein, and Memel ........... ...• h° Pol l en. in w hi c h the national system is doing in Ireland, would Satisfy tension ORD, be carried into effectual operation unless it be figures would let him, the success of the one system and duced to the small number of 77 schools. Upon education Friesland 63 to 7 Os to 9: 0 ill t ; th e scruples of the clergy, so as to allow their schools - to bo explicity avowed and clearly understood in each such the failure of the other. The right hom gentleman said generally he would say that he did not believe state ode- Russian and Odessa 58 to 68,Lins. c., Eulll sh s od in- connected with the National Board 9-I think so, certainly school open to children of different denominations, that no that with a view to encouraging membersi of the Esta- cation was congenial to the feelings of the British people, Oats, English te n, lol .rd "Have you in considering the question, been able to ar- attempt shall be made to influence or disturb the peculiar bushed Church in Ireland the Government thought that and that the policy of the Government should henceforth Ditto Danish 0010 8 t • sw nd en rive at any scheme for such a settlement ?- I .do not see religious tenets of any sect or denomination of Christians, some variation ought to take place in the distributien of be to give aid as much as possible to local effort. It was Ditto Friesland - I a Od t° ;11 , why the system which has answered so well in England and that the rules therein bo so explicit as to remove all the educational grants, and that the clergy ought not to be evident to commence with that state education must be Ditto Russian 27 to 28 1 1 tape cakes •-• th . to -4 should not be applied to Ireland, though, perhaps; with grounds for apprehending any such interference with their excluded because from conscientious motives they were founded upon some religious principle. But what did Barley, malting e h_ 4 ,, 0 , ors precluded from adopting the national system. Now he (Mr. that mean? If it meant teaching children the formularies Ditto grinding 34 to 381 Ditto foreign ..... se .s s ,;hoo he some modifications." respective religious principles." He proceeded to argue Re is then asked this question, to which I would particu- that if the house and the Government adopted the motion Horstnan) begged that the house would remark how of the church ho believed that the time was ill chosen, Beans I - A ela to ....."' '''. rut strongly the Government had made up their minds Upon and that system would fail. The object of education was Ditto foreign laxly request the attention of the Government- of the right honourable baronet, it would produce all those n g, " Will you suggest any modifications which you think it religious feelings of bitterness and rancour that formerly this subject-(hear)-and that they had a plan in their to impress upon the mind those great principles which Peas, white and yel. 38 to 421 Flour, per bri• • .... 0 ' ought to undergo T-I think, as I have heard suggested by ' existed in Ireland to a great extent, and he called on the minds by which inquiry was to he followed. Accordingly, fitted a man for this world and the world to come. Oppor eal D r . T renc h, that the plan of the Church Education Society house not to disturb the present system, which had be en the Church Society held a meeting at which the Bishop of tunities for doing that would continually occur in all IPSWICH-JUNE 17. and black -- al to w 5 1 a 11E11"ea in should be, to a certain extent, adopted-that is, the plan of the only real boon that the house had conferred on Ossory (Dr. O'Brien) propounded his plan, and on that 00- schools, such, for instance, as when two children gave The supply of wheat was very small, and only r qr. e. _ _cation.bhetook theopportunity of giving the Government way to their natural animosity and quarrelled. That was !en only giving aid in proportion to the qualifications of the Ireland. . , Mr. HORSMAN said that the proposition of his right every facility of settling the question hy the co-operation the moment to teach a child the lessons of Him who corn- ce on the sales of last week. In 0 tat children in the school. It appeared to me that the schools hi s . I visited in Ireland, particularly the national schools, hon. friend opposite had been brought forward with so of the clergy. At first the Church education party de- mended them to forget and forgive. So throughout the advance done, principally with the mllers ti • 00 014 wanted a stimulus; many of them were in a very languid much ability that it was almost difficult for the house to nounced the national system as anti-Christian, godless,,and whole of the great truths of Christianity, he believed they est . I wo change can be noted. PER QUARTER. --0 to -- sinful ; hut eventually they altered their plans, and in were far better impressed upon the mind by selecting op-state indeed ; and if the system were altered it would be an resist it. But he felt that there was so much difference em 1852 a fuither modification rock place, and the Church portunities of that kind than by teaching portions of the excellent thing to let the teachers feel that the grant to the both in principle and policy, between the views of the G e o'. ion school would be in proportion to the advance of the children vernment and those of the right hon. gentleman, and the education party put themselves under rules of the national Church formularies at stated titres every day. He fully Ditto (new) -s to -s Beans ........ . ,t o ....• Wheat, rod (old) 69s to 72s Barley, grinding .. . „ te o o hs t are in learning." consequences of adopting those last views would be so dire board as regarded secular education, reserving, their coo- maintained that the Bible should be held out to every chill ant us convictions with respect to religious instruction. a s the groundwork of his religion ; and he thought, except Ditto, white...., 76s to 80s Peas ..... 7 ........... 1, 1 7 : 4,t9 -s to -spitto (white) ...... ete h•O res- Thera is a good deal in that suggestion and it leads estrous, that he should be disappointed if he failed to con- Dittoßerl Barley, (old) yi viR A malting the me besides to the last point with which'l shall trouble vines the house that it would be doing an act of injustice But what was the result of all that? From the time of the in special cases, that that principle should be adopted in all ' l r g tho house, and that is to state distinctly what I pro- to Ireland if it did not reject the motion. The right hon. statement made by the Home Secretary till the Noveniber State schemes of education. It had been said that the GSB FOR THE Wean ENDING JUNE 14, 1856. 7d following nothing was done, but in the course of November master made the school, but it must not be forgotten that Wheat • 2lOO quarters, at 68s , ' hat pose to ask. I think it is clear from what I have said, l gentleman had said that the present system had failed in -el Flour, per sack ...-° : • --8 0 11 Lord Derby communicated the result of his labours Oahe the patron made the master, and that anything tending to Oats tin that your system cannot always continue exactly as Ireland. He (Mr. Horsman) trusted that he should be - *ll -II ea . House of Lords. He stated, that during the recess' he prevent fit persons becoming patrons of schools tended Peas - jee- it is. At the same time I admit that you ought able to show the contrary. The right hon. gentleman had 1 9 .-.4 O a . and his colleagues in the Government, together *i h directly to prejudice the utility of those schools. For the Barley - weir to make as few alterations as would enable you to continue said the system was not an united system. He (Mr. OD the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, had directed their at- reasons stated he was not satisfied with the national sys- Bears d on that system without unnecessary disturbance. What, Horsmar) would show that it was perfectly united. The tention to this question. The LordsLierttenant had con- tern, and should support the proposition of his right hon. i of . therefore, I would ask, is that you should grant "that right hon. gentleman had said that the motion would lead culered it his duty to devote great attention to the sub- - system hee such modifications may be made in the rulesof the national to harmony.. He should show that it would lead to die- friend. . T. Jed, and 'that neither himself (Lord Darby) nor his Mr. HUGHES said that the importance of this question COURSE Oil' gxonAisroß.-YESTEB DA --' of education in Ireland as will extend the advan- cord. The right hon. gentleman said that his measure rip- • r tages now enjoyed by non-vested schools to any other than only was) ermissive in allowing the reading of the Bible to noble friend (the lord-lieutenant) could see his way to • mighobe judged of from the fact that 2,500,000 persons bad „. o h . km5terdam............ 11 'B% • Gibraltar ..•• .• " .. 30 .'„, L he e vested schools now existing or hereafter to be established, Protestants. He should show that it Made the reading Of any change that would not disturb the present system, been educated by the educational board, and there were Ditto, three months .. 12 0% Leghorn .. ........ '. .23 SAM 1i..1- whatever their regulations may be as to the mode of religi- the Bible obligatory on all. The right hon. gentleman had which would be a very serious evil. The Government now in course of education 550,000. There had been an aotterdam ............ 12 0% Genoa ........... •" ' xis ous instruction." Now, I wish the house to beer in mind cited authorities to show that they ought to abandon the would not. therefore bring forward any alteration which ex p ress pledge formerly given th at the religions principles entwerp ............. 25 07% Milan ............ •!••.' nee the difference betwetn vested and non-vested schools. principle on which they had hitherto acted. He should they thought must necessarily lead togteat evils which the .. 13 1014 Naples •••••••••••• . 132 would most sincerelydeplore. Now, when the EarlofDeiby sent proposition of the right hon. gentleman contained a `, l ?-m on b a nrgh •- •• •• •• - Y of the children should not be interfered with, but the pre- itrusseis .... ..s. ...... 25 o'N Venice-h."... ...h . ,. 441( eke Vested schools are those towards the building of which the cite authorities to show that that system ought not to be hly commissioners have contributed money. Non-vested schools relaxed, and that it was their duty as well as their policy made that statement, there were three prelates connected condition that every child should be compelled to read th© with the Church Education Society in the House of Lords. holy Scriptures whether the parents dissented from it or i ce are those towards the building' of which lay patrons have to keep it up. He perfectly agreed with those who said it t ar it is...111:: •• .:::::::. • 20 - 42% Messina ... ........ • h 3 4 but not one word was said about the matter at the time. l e contributed, and to which no contributions have been made that religion should be the basis of education. But he ma D rs it e t i o n , e t s linuaonths .. 25 7755 ;Oporto Lisbo7 .. .......... ........ 53.2 i n not. The people of Ireland, therefore, naturally enough The Earl of Derby enrol a full inquiry, but it was Hot believed that a trep was being l a id to proselytise their Bourdeaux ~.........-.. - R:0 Janeiro ..... •'• ' •-- • '' by the board. The vested echools are placed under the con- hitfered eutirely from those who sail that religion did not . o ... Ante' ion trol of the beard, and are, therefore, kaown by thet title. enter lergely into the system of instruction pursued in Berlin - ..... ..... .... - New York,6o ay ilet Honourable gentlemen o pp os it e had seen their I children. There were at the Pressnt moment 5,178 schools Frankfort-on Maine .... 121% Buenos Ayres. d .,•7 B • lo 'l i - w - a7cle - a ' ;'enowth in Opposition, but when in offiee theY in operation under the system promulgated in 1832, re- The non-vested schools are left under the control of the lay the natioual schools. The Bishops of Oxford, of Dun. Vicuna-. ......... 10 20 Philadelphia •• •• •• '' ..: 1 0 °S.,. ref ' patron, and in carryin,g on the work of education receive ham, of London, and of Carlisle, bad all taken up the were struck with Windom. Now, after three years in specting all of which a guarantee had then been given that 10 21 1 PRICEB OF BULLION, ._ , 7 2 to state aid only in the shepe of salaries to teachers, books, principles of religious teaching in their schools, and had Opposition, they hail recovered their vision, and came for- no religions interference should take place. The present eartatPeclee 00 motion. if acceded to, would be a direct breach of faith vadrie ..........; ~.. 49% Portugal Gold Coln • „ t s o no re igt- gtven em etc sanc ton. e lig onoura e gen the and other school requisites. In the vested schools 1 . • ' th th • t . Th • Irt h bl w t ard with their plans. He (Hr. Horsrnan) thought that oo much importance could not be attached to the conva Cadiz ......... • • ...... -- 1 Mexican Dollars .... 7, 0 ,me oue instruction is given during school hours ; but after tleman - had said that the difficulty was as to the fuuda - New Dollars .. •••• ;', 5 I's Votersbutz ............ 37% P F al or e e nn ign o ill . 111 . . 13 . 15r5 ... ....g u ; ?. I: 0 2 , 0 0 NAPIER observed that the fallacy which pervaded h e a v rgc 0 10ni,............. . fine school hours the school-room is accessible to any person by mental principle of national education, and those princi- tions of Lord Derby when it was remembered how tho.see. with rho Irish people. Silver in bars ...• o. " • . convictions were arrived at. If, however, there was any all the speeches on the other side was that it had been 6i" ............ - set whom the parents or guardians wish to be educated in the plea were with respect to schools of vested and non-veste d authority better than that of the Earl of Derby, it was tin - assumed the purpose of the motion was to deprive Roman ehh,,,....................,-,.,---...... e , the religious faith which they themselves profess, and to which rights, and the rights to be allowed to the patrons of those t ttbtediy that of the Earl of Eghoton, the Lord-Lieu- Catholics of the opportunity of enjoying education in the ace they belong. In the non•vested schools the religious in- schools. Now he (Mr. Horsman) was not accustomed to SEABORNE MAILS. m th ai e l m s errant if ;reland under Lord Derby's Government, who schools which at present existed. He fully admitted the struction is prescribed by the lay patron • but in the case consider these as fundamental principles. To prove this ee me s ated` that, after the most unremitting attention to the shb- advantages which Roman Catholics enjoyed. They had got t 0 61 " of those children whose ►%rents object to the relisious in- he would o further back, end show what their ast exne- • - gat . P . o . g - ' P e ject, he could sea no.way by which the party of tho noble the funds of the State for the purpose of educating their struction so prescribed, opportunities are afforded, not in rience had been, acknowledged that the education of the earl could be satisfied without driving all the Roman Cathos_.----•"' 1 of , school hours, for the children being educated by their own Irish people was a nationel concern, and with this view o children according to their free will and pleasure ; and if 0/. , v." . AC children from the schools-without driving, said the the effect of the motion were to deprive thorn of education, tle minister. - Now, observe, Ido not propos® to inzerfere they had legislated for many ages. Acts of Parliament noble lord, 400,C00 children from even the meaus of secu- and to force upon them the principle of the Church Educe y , the te le ,g i ti ft t el an d that m the by o a r r n e in ee g t a fr es om pate th h o o ing with the vested schools. I think they should continue as had been passed on the principle which then prevailed, ChtOnosum. In General Post- run N , Wei_ lar education. (Hear.) He (Hr. Florstnan) could not with- lion Society, then the argument urged by the supporters of iild they are. Neither do I propose in the least degree to inter- that the ignorance of the Irish people was to be attributed hold his tribute of esteem from Lord Eglinton. He went th e present system would apply. But he entirely denied ----..---- . _, lee- fere with the workhouse school, with the mo'riel school, or yens their religion and that the conversion of the people was , secelhh 4 that this argument applied to the case before the house, -- to Irelarel a strone party n.an. He went to Ireland to . ric fbyn-it pack 'every Prides- ... Liven:ow • ter' with the school for training teachers. I believe them all essary preliminary to their education, so much so, subject.of motion • give effectto the views of his party, and on the sin , to be gOol, not to say excellent, and I think, therefore, that by act of Parliament the Roman Catholic clergy wore national education he was deeply pledged. He had not a connection with those that existed, tmerice (by United Sts r. Every - nesday .. Livernoot ••• packet) .........._ they should remain as they are. With regard to non-vested prohibited under severe penalties from imparting instruc- • 1 in who • 1 : , n, sing e official adviser Ireland was not commuted and to enlarge and extend the present system. tnecrice (by U. Stars, 54 0 Y ad w c il e e , L i nd a :: London. irrsisp°meGteventhl:eraa.l r°46.l_,olna schools, Ido not propose to make any alteration which lion to the people. The result was, that the Irish people , m- against the national system. If the noble lord lead M DEA. bring other schools in SY said the right honourable gentleman who packet) ..........1 , , o• .... . - 0 I'll would deprive the Presbyterians or others of any advan- were in a lamentable state • that before the present eon snstrana(via Liver- .. Itve • .committed himself to viclent partisans and unsafe corm- introduced the motion would have led the house to suppose 7°u tsge they now enjoy contrary to the original fundamental tar the schools were noted for disloyalty and for every the rules of the board. Bat what I do ask is this, that you kind of vice ;so that royal commissions and parliamentary ' sel'ors had he gone headlong into the passions of his party, that the Protestants of Ireland were precluded from giving oitto (via efarseilles) ii ......... Dover ••••••• • • hi he would haoe committed a mistake which would have religious instruction to their own children, but he did not elutedppone after e outer o inves 1- 'L" should extend to those non-vested schools, and to those committees were atht • t - fotto (via Cape of Good • . ~met , made his administration• Ireland curse Instead of ina . quote any rule of the educetional board of Ireland which /3100 .:., .. .. .. .4 .. N .. .... . 1, •:. e h pir roll alone, such modifications of your rules as will enable the gate the cause, and to suggest remedies. All these came to p ee l) ............ e 4th and 19th .... Liverpool taking that course, he applied his mescaline good sense to Wl3 members of the Church in Ireland to educate their the same conch ion, that there had been no attempt to ex , the subject andhe made known his conclusions honestly and prevented from doing was from forcing their own religious elexanhria........ ••t. 10th St 20th of no. Dover ..•„ .), • 1 4 , t 11siou tended to restrict this liberty. What they really were &trice (west Coast) .. 1, 555 , of tho montt. . Plymout ... 4 t I tTh_ Ile, childen in their own way. (Cheers.) In asking that I ask tirpate ignorance from Ireland, but to promote prose- the upon Roman Catholic children. And if this 4.1exandria..........31 t,a, &20cn of mob. iouthanll-.__ L ed , gotithaBlo OP de rou no snore in substance than. what you have already granted lytism, and for that reason the people of Ireland stood to ' Lord Derby, thus saving his party from a and country a great _ motion were carried would step _ , seghum ... h „h. hh 0 , 11 y...... .... 1 ,,f 1 6. manfully atblunder hisfrom calamity.For * it be another in the same to others ; and I ask itsubject to certain conditions, and aloof from the school. He begged the house to see how ire, great the noble' lord deserved the gratitude of his friatids retrograde course of which the recent vote on the subject ht" Omen .............. es 9th of the month.. ionthaml3! ' ''Z i '; 16 . the conditions; aro these :---First, I think these schools slowly, yet how strongly, the conviction on this point had Vie and what he (Mr. Horsman) wasprepared to ay him, of Ma nooth was the first. It was said that the resent . ought to pat themselves in connection with the National been expressed. A royal commission had been issue(' in , P y . . P Buenos Ayres ........M Valina ports quo are respect of opponents. (Loud cheers.) He had system was either exclusively Protestant, or that the Ca- C a pe o f the his Good Hope „Is Uncertain . o r att. so , Board ; secondly, that they ought to submit to govern- 1806, which had made its final report in 1812. It consist d listened with ! reat attention to the speech of the right tholics did not derive commensurate benefits froth the sys- Cape of Bahamas ...........10 17th of the mono aeuthamoro , o , , h Of oth , •r. - .... n u ; Southampton 9t _ ~. °"" moot inspection ; and, thirdly, that they ought not to of ale Archbishop of Armagh, the Archbishop of Cashel, hon. tl g introduced subject that night, of the Boardof Educational Cape de Verde .. N but gen eman who had the Ceylon ,s__ India) 10th and 26th is IS '' 26 WO he allowed to force -upon any children whose parents or Mr. Currie, the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer Dr. Good Hope ..N there was a matter on which the right hon. gentleman Commissioners showed that this was entirely a fallacy. °t.e l" "a) 4th d2O h '4IS it on ) guardians are not members of the Church any of the formu- Elric, the president of Trieity College, Richard Lovell h hey10n..............14 as t ao had not touched-he had not attempted to reconcile his Wh a t would be the result of the vote they were asked to hhioneo id e5 ....,...N t0•,,e..,et houthanithen t _ se 2 0 9 the lonia's, catechism A, or creeds of the Church. These are the Edgeworth, and one or two others. Adl these, with the ox- conduct as a member of Lord Derby's Government in 1812 come to that uight ! In the first place they were asked Chi1i................114 id &IV' , of monii 3outhamp 0 pin , - '4 am ,0 at- coudltions which I would annex to the grant if the Govern- caption of Mr. Edgeworth, were opposed to all concession i - • • • th his opposition in 1856. Could the right hon. gentle- to remove the conscientious scruples of the Protestant china .. . - *, .na s* man deny that the plan which was under the consideration clergy. But he was convinced that those scruples could Constantinople ••....h ••• • 3 0 m a sapto , 1-- 48, request lam asking no more than what I believe the and one bishop among them. Yet, in 1812, long before any en . House of Lords woul I have agreed to after they made concession to the Roman Catholic claims was ever dreamt of, of his Government d in 1852 was that of the Bishop of Os- be removed - without encroaching on the rights of others. y .... .„ Dover ..•••• L..- -Ail/ f that 1 eery, and that the result of the adoption o t pan Mr. DE. VERB moved the adjournment of the debate. 349 their inquiry. These two volumes furnish the fullest the commission reported that no plan of education could be Egypt (see India) Tlrfa' - I ' 400 ave been, as Lord Eglinton had said, odrive Mr. DISRAELI appealed .to the hon gentleman not to trrance ........ At & N 'style° daily-- Dover ...• ~ 7 , 44# information to Parliament upon the subject ; but, unfortu- carried into operation, unless its leading principle was not to "r. 3 - ' nately, whether from the lateness of the season when the attempt to influence or disturb the peculiar relieious tenets ,600 Roman - Catholic children from thehchools ? Could press the motion, considering the late period of the session. Gib ra lt ar ..........70 4,7.17,20,274 m Southamote . ° . 2nd Is 17th of mon iouthampt , : , 1 '17; he deny that that was the plan to which Lord Derby le- The house divided- Greece (see India) Cont. CnBta onftEhrirPoleee•hdge...g: 4th : '2 cl lol ai l l till-li runthan"w7 • dirt: rch ' ,_ h inquiry terminated, or from any,other cause, Ido not . know, of any part of the population. Here then was the ac- ferred when he made his statement in the House of Lords ? For the adjournment 32 uu no report was presented founded upon the evidence, knowledgment that the base of all education should be not And yet that was the plan which the right hon. gentleman Against it ....... ~ lB4 London ... es li m os° ;en- although I understand several draft reports were prepared. to influence or disturb religious opinions. The Second now said he was surprised the Government were unwilling Majority against the adjournment.... -152 Holland .......... 4. M DallY •••• • • • Dover ....... 1 ''' 000 . One of these was prepared by Lord Eglinton, another by royal commission was issued in 1821. It was unanimous CIL -I t : ern :a t: n u : nr g a b h .....• .:.• .: ..• .....• Y..11' Daily 1 i o f the . mobti Southarapt , I , ' .90 0 3 to i adopt. There had been no changes as regarded the right Sir J. FITZGERALD then proceeded to address the El oo d uras ..........m 17ta of the month. iouthamptoi . ...29 nan the Bishop of Ossory, a third by Lord Derby, a fourth by in its report, which said th-.t in a country where such ma -000 Lord Monteagle, and a fifth by Lord Granville, the Presi- aerial differences in religion exioed, schools sheuld be on. gentleman and hes . frie . n . ds except that they were now house on the motion, amidst loud cries of "Divide," and India (viaSouthampt.)3l ith k '2oth of moo Plymouth ..• I"- denuded of the responsibilities of office ; but yet he came much interruption. His observations were quite inaudible India (via Marsoilles)3l 9tti&26th of month Dover ...... t, is dent of the Council, and so far the representative of the eatablished free from all suspicion of interference with r o m an was (see India) 10 1k `. 4th . Dover.... •• down to the house and advised the Government to adopt in the gallery. s , i s Government upon the subject of e location. Lord Gran- religious feeling. The committee of the House of Com- Ireland ........M & N Twice daily ..... Holyhead .. that plan which the Government of Lord Derby would not The house then divided on the motion- an ville's report goes to recommend the making of new regu- mons was appointed in - 818, and in its report it says, that lations which would have prevented that difference again no system of education could be ex edient, if it was alm- undertake, and to face all the calamities which they looked For the motion Madeira ............31 stn of the mon.: Sonthamptae ,6, ' ' at arising which has unfortunately led to the retirement lated to influence or disturb the Aculiar religious tenets upon not only with apprehension but with dismay. Against it . 3 to from the board of two such men as the Archbishop of Dub- of any part of the population. The committee then (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman had stated that the Majority in favour of the motion... -10 Malta (see India) 1 5, , I It. lin and Mr. Blackburne. (Hear, hear.) The report of adopted the very words used by the first royal commission. national system had entirely failedhs'a united system; but The announcement of the numbers was received with Malta ............ N 4, 10, 20, and 26.. Dover eees s- 4, 21 ' for Lord Monteagle is in favour of the system. That of the In 1830 another parliamentary committee was appointed. he . was prepared to say that, as far as any rational expects- great cheering. Menritius (see India) -.. 4. 21 Re- Bishop of Ossory is an able document, giving the That committee recommended that no farthertime should tion could be formed, it had eminently succeeded. Look- THE FRANCHISE. Mauritius ........ ts• :20 .ft of the meal ing to the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, it would be Sir J. WeALMSLEY postponed his motion for leave to Mexico ....h. h ..M -sea of the mont• . 3 00 ty sti mpt•v ta ' I to Church views in the fullest a n d clearest manner ; be lost in giving the public the benefit of the experience admitted that it was very difficult to establish a united bring in a bill for the extension of the franchise and for hew Granada ~....!‘ 9 Dal d & 17th of mom' Dover 3ontbampte the and anybody who wishes to know what those Church and the recommendations of the commission of 1806 and system where the preponderance was so much on one side the amendment of the representation in England and New Eea1and.......... D ui se a month . various por, , he eoll l og views are will find them stated in that report with the the committee of 1828. It desired that no time should be or the other. In such a state of things it could never bo Wales. Papal Mates .... , ..N aily.... -•••• .. Dover .... a ° , eat power of argument and force of reasoning usually cha- lost in giving effect to the principle that non-interference Peninsula .....,....31 2outhamptor expected that they would have an equal number of children RAILWAY TRAFFIC BILL. of racteristie of that right rev. prelate. But the only reports with religions views was the only one to insure success in in their schools, but still the system had not failed, for its Peru ..............31 id & 27th of mor southamptot. which bear more immediately on my motion and the appli- the education of Ireland. Were they, then prepared to lir. BLACKBURN moved the second reading of this peet Natat ..........o ay private ship.. various port , „ ho rti on- great object was to provide good secular instruction, and bill, the object of which was to compel railway companies 8-oily ..............N Every Saturday.. Dover .....• v - ' cation I now make are those of Lord Darby and Lord Gran- say that all these opinions were wrong ? because if the ear villa. Now. I remember that when this question was last slid not, they would not agree to the motion of his righyt that it had. accomplished. One reason why it had not to charge all passenger and other traffic after the same Ti cans ............N Ditto.... .... .... 'rover ..... ix seta l proved so united -a system as it might otherwise have been Venezuels .. ~.. .. .. 31 2d it 17th of mont inuthamptor ant before the House of Coinrnons the right hon. baronet (Sir bon. friend ; for if they were to do so thewould adopt rate, according to distance. As an instance of one of the ith .. J. Graham) made an appeal of a mos t earnes t character to the principle that it was right and advisable to interfere was, that the clergy of the Established Church of Ireland evils which the bill was intended to meet, he would refer Vail Disipe ' sAnd (se ` i • had done everything in their power to defeat it. The Australia) ........ 4th of mon the the Conservative members of the house not to take any with the religious opinions of the people. The right hon. to the case of the London and North-Western Company, W h o r e el, ~ -,u .. . '• • " tae lDlits h' trn- , •,,,..., 40nthamn , ols step that was calculated to disturb th e foundations.of the gentleman had referred to the Kildare-street Society, clergy had carried their opposition to the system to the which recently charged, for the purpose of competition, . dal 0 d e* . fullest extent and they had lost in consequence much of double the amount of fare for passengers to Blisworth, that When any of these dates fall on a Sunday, the mans ea- hi el o are system of education which Lord Derby h a d laid and carat- That society had adopted the words of the committee of the sympathy: of tlhe laity ; for it would be seen that while they were charging to Peterborough, although the distance s? o a u t t c b. h , e m ci p o to n n th ban e Scioltlbowie m ng al d t r bo wi th th sf th w e hi e c x b ce w p i t l i l e b n e o d i e t s h p e s ghsd V s ur- limbed in Ireland. For m y se lf, I can t ru l y say th a t, owing 1812, not to interfere with the religious tenets of any part was double. The abject was to compete with the Great i u . as Ido to that great man-and proud Ism to avow it-my of the population. Yet that society had failed, because it in all other denominations theschoolserttablishe t d be lay the thosecergy very . far outnumbered . those established by laity, Northern Company for the Peterbsrough traffic preceding day. . tau political allegiance, I should be extr e mely sorry to utter could not acquire the confidence of the people, when established by . the laity of tho church far outnum- . one word here that was contrary to his opinions. Fortu- that confidence was necessary to its success. Yet all Mr. BLACK moved that the bill be read a second time .. bared those established by the clergy. (Hear, hear.) In reit natal however however, in this case lam not driven to the di - the difference between the Kildare-street Society and a ll the provinces of Ireland there were only 156 church that day sloe months. i n A . 3 °' lemur'. of diffsring from the noble earl. He was the author the Church Atiucatiou as far as the confidence Mr. LOWE seconded the amendment. The avowed ob. LOOA.L SHARE MA.RKE Im ' schools established by the clergy, whereas there were 452 ject of the bill was to obtain aco strol by the Edinburgh ---.0...-.--. I -- of that measure of education for Ireland at a time when of the public was concerned, Society,wlls to the advents e g established by 41 , the system was imperfectly understood-at a time when the former. The former authorised •ed no interference the laity. But there was another fact still and Glasgow Company over the Caledonian Company. LIVERPOOL, JUNE 17. .nt more remarkable, in the case of workhouse schools, which rej n o b o dy would have dreamt of giving grants to all religious with religious opinion, the latter interfered with real- had been put by the laity, having the management of these ver y Isti°/ - t Mr. GLYN also opposed the bill. STOCK EXCHANGE -The mark t h been - is bodies as is done now ; when it was necessary to do some- gious o pi n ions. The former had a mixed board, composed unions, under the National Board. There were in Ireland Mr. BLACKBURN would not put the house to the t d• • e as ' titer° Len thi ng for Ireland, with the view of making the education of members of all denominations; the latter had a board 163 uione in 13) of which the workhouse schools had d• idi trouble of iv ng. o- ay, ender rho influence of Lord Palmerston a 8 ' 10 burn n ia rpu the e ,r6icent- O x, American foclrods q : question s tsitoena Worcester,i i n l y t . a h ne Caledonian, ei of f bn ; C T n o 3 : 1 ; 00 ° ;I p 8 ri t o o to there more expansive than it was before, and when it was composed solely of members of the Church of England. been p laced b the board of guardians . under the national The amendment was agreed t, and the bill rejected. night, and rices mast be noted et an advance of froys3lo4#. ion equally necessary to get rid of the religious objections which The school teachers . of one were of all denominations, hoard! The the riy of the Establisa e 1 Church kept away The house adjourned at ten minutes past one. cal Boman Catholics entertained to the previous system. But - while the school teachers of the other belonged exclusively from the nationa schools because they were opposed to ith now that 20 years have passed over our heads, and mate- to the Church. The Kildare-street Society authorised the their religious convictions • but they did not keep away hir , ,s, cent. stock, 101i-Midlands 80 i -East Lanfa e .,__Elcur . , „. ri a l changes have taken place both in England and Ireland, Douai version of the Bible without note or comment-the from the national schools of ' wi;hlthouses, which were con- . PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION. -Ditto, Pref., 1-sth shares, ' Five per cent., 6 .tf s v a ster' ale lam happy to say that i n ma ki ng th e presen t proposition Church Elucation Society permitted none but the &nth°. ducted upon precisely similar principles, because they were of lam making identically the some proposition which Lord. rise(' version. The Kildare-street Society did not allow retained as chaplains to the boards of uardians • (Hear, . . -_-_-..- - Eastern, 211 2-North Eastern, Berwick, 201 i I ,r, '''DittoP put Derby mad;to the committee of the H ou s e o f L or d s on a the f ormu l ary or catechism of the English Church-the hear, and Oh, oh.) Now there was only one other point HOUSE OF COMMONS.-JUNE 17. Counties, 104 -Great Western of Canada, 2 " , ; new shares, 33 p.-Shetlields, SW -Dutch Rhenishdh' he careful examination o f th e w h o l e su bj ec t. H e proposed Church Educe II .n Society allowed both the formulary and to which, in_ couchilion; he would refer. The right hon. ' EDUCATION (IRELAND). y o L :I I. I IZ. e - e - t l e T e c . asitge i aimil_YAlliod.iileilevr94.i-d.lsio_n d ri l dot ed four resolutions, the t wo l as t and mos t i m p or t an t of which the catechi m. So that as far as confidence was concerned, gentleman (Mr- WalPole) came forward in that house as Motion made and Question _proposed, " That an humble ll it were • 51.... t. nrs.lfi.farongt was me... 1:1-1.- s.- t._ -------1 L.- ...t._ -rr:i .. Motion made and Question proposed, "That an bumble Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that such roottifications may be made in the rules of the National System of Education in Ireland, as will extend the ad vantages now enjoyed by non-vested schools to any other than vested schools now existing, or hereafter to be es tablished, whatever their regulations may be as to the mode of religious instruction ; provided that no children shall be compelled to learn any catechism, creed, or for. mulary to which their parents or guardians may object; and provided that the patrons shall be willing to place such schools in connection with the Board, to permit the Board's control over books to be used in general iustruc. tion, and to receive officially the visits of the Govern• meat inspeetors."—Motion made and Question put : Ayes, 113; Noes, 103 . LIVERPOOL, ,jurril 17. „ a vaDti, STOCK EiCOHANGE.—The mark e t h as been very o u t ' e - n )el to-day, under th e i n fl uence o f L ord Palmers t on 's 8 on the American question in the House of Comln°ns to night, and prices must be noted at an advance of froys3lo4cr 14 per cent., closing steadily. Caledonian, 3 11 6 per barn, 61—Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverharnptonfre, q() cent. stock, 101 4 ,—Midlands 80 4—East Lanfa s , bl igottaz_ —Ditto, Prof., 1-sth shares, ' Five per cent., 6 1 g - -g ig itsP l Eastern, 211 2—North Eastern, Berwick, 20i,,17 . '"Ditio , Counties, 104—Great Western of Canada, : 4 " „j o b, P; W new shares, 33 p.—Sh e t li e ld s , S-Dutch Blier LI 1.11.3. —Lancashire an d Y or k s hi re, 94i—Lonu °- n gorth Westerns, 1034 14-Ditt o , new, d. 1 -4 " 0 Perth, and Aberdeen, 9i. MANCHESTER, JUNE 17. nd STOO S EXCHANGE.—The market has been im oteu' as regards prices, and a very good business was tram ' pd Sheffield,, 301- Ditto, 31 p er cen t. , 68 n.—ge,nd9t Windermere, 10k—East —East Lancashi re , 101 —Lee" , itiebi —Doyen -- , 211 15-16 4Midlands, 80 i i—lsThrth 6 /.16 9—Great Western of Canada, 264 i-131ackblusso - --Ditto, Pref., 184. BIRMINGHAM, JUNE 17. 0 i 0 STOOK EXOHANGE.—ThiS ma r k e t was nnustlaly r os s aP to-day, and p r i ces fi rm . Midl an d s, 79) i ---4 - 411 , 3 perbP North-Western, 103—Midl an d , Bi rm i ng h am , an d 49) 50—Great Westerns, 62) if. LEEDS, JUNE 17. STOCK EXCHANGE. —North E as t ern , L ee d s , 18 'int Midland, 70/ 80—Sheffield, 30i—Leed s , 914 --Birja ham and Derby, tOh. DIE PANAMA. RAlLWAY.—lntelligence is brought 7, the West India pa c k e t L a Pl a t a , w hi c h h as just arr!• n g that the directors of the P anama R a il roa d are repa ir ' and strengthening their line. The sleepers and brlio have given way on account of the native wood use al p their construction rapidly decaying. The directors for no w using lignum vita for sleepers and iron bridges. The line has p a id a di v id en d o f 12 per °eat AYES-113. Adderley, C. B. Graham, Lord M. Fakenham, Capt. E Alexander, J. Greenall, Gilbert Palmer. Robert Archdall, Capt.M. Grogan. Edward Robertson, P. Rennet, Capt. P. Guinness, R. S. Rushout, Capt. G. Bernard, Vist, Gwyn, Howal Rust, James Blackburn'''. Hamilton, Lord Claud Seymer, IL Boldero, Col. 11. G. Hardinge, Hon. C. Shirley, E. Bramston, T. W Hardy, G. Sibthorp, Major Buck, Col. Herbert, Sir T. Stubllett, A. Buller, Sir 3'. Hill, Lord A. E. Spooner, It. Bunbury, W. B, Ilolford, It. Stafford, A. Ilurrowes, Robert Ilume, W. Stanhope, ,r. Butt, I. JoWife, Sir W. Starkie, Le G. Cairns, IL Jolliffe, 11. Stracey, Sir 11. Child, Smith Jones, Admiral Stewart, Sir M. Cholmondeley, Lord Kendall, N. Stuart, Captain Christy, Samuel Kinnaird, A. Taylor, Colonel Cocks, T. S. Lacon, Sir E. Thesiger, Sir. F. Cole, 11. A. • Leslie, C. F. Toliemache, J. Coles, H. Lindsay, Col. J. Vance, John Colvile, C. R. Lockhart, W. Vansittart, G. Conolly, T. Lushington, C. M. Verner, Sir W. Corry, H. T. L. Maeartney, G. Vernon, V. Cuhitt, W, MacGleam*, James Waddington, 11. Davison, R. Matins, Richard Walcott, Admiral. Disraeli, B. March, Earl of Walpole, s, buncombe, aon. Col. Maxwell, J. Warner, E. Dundas, G. Michell, William Warren, S. Du Pre, C. Montgomery, 11. L. Whiteside, J. East, Sir J. Montgomery, Sir G. Whitmore. 11, Egerton, W. Moody, C. Wigram, I,oftus T. Egerton, Edw. Morgan, 0. Willi .ms, T. Farnham, E. Mowbray, J. R. Wyndham, Gen. Fellowes, E. 3luflings, J. R. Wynn, Lt.-Col. Foyer, J. Naas, Lord Wpm e, John Forst, r, Sir Geo. Na ler, J. Franklyn, G. Newark, Viscount TELLERS. Frewen, C . 11. Newdegate, C. Heathcoate, Sir W. George, J. Northcote, Sir S. Hamilton, t+, A. NOES-103. Agnew, Sir A. Fox, W. J. North, F. Antrobus, E. Gall'irtY, Sir W. O'Brien,'P. Baines, Rt. llon. M. Gladstone, W, O'Brien J. , Ball, J. Glyn, G. O'Connell, J. Bass, M. Grace, 0. O'Flaherly, I. Beamish, F. Graham, Sir J. Palmerston, Viscount Bellew, T. Greene, John Peel, Sir R. Berkeley, F. Greville, Colonel F. Pilkington, J. Bethell, Sir R. Grey, lit Hon. Sir G. Pollard-Urquhart, W. Black, Adam Grey, R. Price, Sir R. Bland, L. H. Hadfield, George Price, W. Bowyer. G. posit,. Alex. Ramsil , is, Sir J. Brady, J. Heard, J. Ricardo, S. Brand, IL B. W. Heywood, J. Ithl'ey, George Burke, Sir T. Holland, E. Sale, C. Byng, G. H. C. Horsinan, E. Scully, F. Cobbett, J. M. Howard, Li rd E. Seymour, 11. Cockl, .rn, Sir A. J. E. lin ;hes, W. Smith, R. Corbally, M, E, Hutchins, E. Stanley, Lord Cowan, C. Ingliain, It, Stanley, W. Cowper, W. Keating, R. Steel, John Cranford, E. H. J. Kennedy, T. Talbot, C. Dens R , . Kershaw, J. Thompson, G. Denison, J. E. Kirk, W. Thornhill, W, De Vere, S. E. Laboucliere,RLTlOn.H Tite, W. Dillwyn, L. L. Luce. T. Walmsky, Sir J. Duncan, Viscount MacEvoy, E. Wells, W. Duncan, George 11.PCanti, J. Wickham, 11. Estnonde, J. Nagai], W. Wilson, .1. Fagan, W. Maguire, J. F. Woo l, Sir C. Fenw ck, H. Martin, P. Wrightson, W. t ..rgusou, sir It. , Militg,an, R. Fitz Gerald, Sir John Millies, R. TELLER 4. Fitzgerald, J. • Moore, G. Fitzwilliath, C. • i Morris, D. Rayter, W.' • ' Forster, Chsrles Nurrough, J. 1". 74 9 1 10 k, VII, BIRTHS. 07 A BON. On the 17th inst., at 36, GlN:ester-gardens, Mrs. George May. 13: the On the 13th inst., at Lewiston Castle, Edinburg wife of John C. Craigie Halkett, Esq. OP A DATIOIITZE. „Arks On the 16th inst., at 13, Porehester-sqttare, Hid the wife of Stafford Sommerville, Esq. in t ir Of On the 14th inst., at 7, Arlington-street, PiecauD••o wife of Thomas Wakley, Esq., F.R.C.S. MARRIED. Ufa , On the 17th inst., at St. Margaret's,Westminater , Wriothesly Digby, Esq., of Meriden Hall, Warwielo P k . ; o ; to Adelaide, daughter of the Eight Hon. George , M.P. 01 the 17th inst., at St. Savi our ' s, D ar t mo uth, P e r i , Mr. Lewellin A. Crowley , 13 : don, to Mary Eliz that', eldest daughter of the late ‘l*"' o of the Stock Exchange, -1- Daly,'Esq., of Dartmouth. • 1) I E D s i b u gli On the 17th i ns t., at Lambeth, Dr. Thomas S. IP" -- late .A. -Distant-Physi c i an , Renkioi Civil Hospital. , dor On the 16th i ns t., M r . Th omas Hood, o f 9, S"a°l- place, St. James's. • gtovt On the 15th inst., at Phillimore-terrace, Sens i n g I, Harriet Eli za b e th , re li ct of the late Jo h n wins Esq., of Lloyd's, aged 77. - 4 EsOl.n, On t ta h hg e eed th inst., at Cheltenham, Rachel, wi 'dew 0 15 4 t 1 h . inst., at-Bath.r.oad, Reading, Joshua Br :: o f O the t l h a e t e ls S t i h r Hon. Andrew Ramsay, aged 72. . ',sof, On the 14th inst., at 55, Strand, Mr. Wm. S i aged 42. La dy S i ' On the 14th inst., at Lime-grove, Putney, - Aubyn, aged 87. . i c n i s n t i . s , t a o t p lC he e r n s si w ng ee to d n ia , n S d o . phia Pitt,.dauglit'er ___.....4 ZOSDOIt Printod mrld Publiehei by MT:MOO T-r \‘ of No. 112, Striind, Printer, at Me d'ei Office, • Strand, In the Precinct of - the Savoy; in the colin t Y Middleeezi Wednesday, June_lBl.lB66. I tiE cc INDIA ,-,,,aitAL co ' en -zraiaus n k in the ti g a Ballot i th if % the u tiLth'e deelsiont -w ibir the Ba