The Sun. — London, England, 1831-02-16 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY. 15. Lord GODERICH presented several petitions on the subject of the truck system, the abolition of slavery, and the extension of the elective franchise. Lord DACRE presented petitions from Bishop Stortford and several other places, praying for Parliamentary Reform. Lord KING presented petitions from Clamorganshir e and Sonaersetshire against the tithe system ; also a petition from the Manchester Political Union, praying for Parlia mentary Reform ; also a petition from St. James's, Cler kenwell, and Mile-End, praying for Parliamentary Reform. Lord RADNOR presented a petition of rights from the town of Birmingham, praying for Parliamentary Reform. The Noble Lord in doing so expressed a sin cere hope that the ballot would form part of the proposed system of Reform, and took occasion to refer to how that saystem worked in America. He firmly believed that no plan of Reform would he satisfactory, unless accompanied by the ballot. Lord CALTHORPE did not agree with many of the sentiments contained in the petition, considering that it asked for that which Parliament could not grant con. sistently with its own dignity. COMMISSIONERS OF BANKRUPTS. The LORD CHANCELLOR then rose to present a petition from a most important body of individuals, the hankers, merchants, and solicitors of the metropolis. In doing so his Lordship observed that, in looking over the names which were attached to that petition, upward. of four thousand five hundred in number, he found many with whom he was well acquainted. and he had no doubt that if the petition had remained for a longer period for the purpose of signature, many thousands more would have been added to it. The petition stated that the present system of the Bankrupt I.aws was so bad as griev ously, to affect the trade and traders of the city of London. It objected to the whole arrangement and system of the a dministration of the estate and effects of bankrupts by the 14 lists of Commissioners; and then set forth, shortly and clearly, some of the principal evils of this system : and this it would be necessary to remember was the result of long experience and the subject of much discussion in the city of London, for he himself recollected many debates on the subject; they also prayed that their Lordships would adopt such measures as in their judgments seennal necessary to abolish the 14 lists of Commissioners, and in lieu thereof to establish such a Court as would give to the public that convenience which it was entitled to. It might be supposed that be (the Lord Chancellor) had taken some interest in this proceeding, after the notice which had been given for Tuesday next to bring forward his proposirion on this subject. He assured their Lordships that he had not had the slightest communication with any person who had been instrumental in bringing forward the present petition till he had been requested by the peti tioners to bring the subject before their Lord-hips. He, however, could assure the House that the petition did not present any speculative doctrines urged by these indi viduals. The parties signing the petition were men who had bad experience on this subject, and . who were now suffer ing from the effects of the system of which they com plained. Under such circumstances he particularly re quested the attention of their Lordships to a petition of such importance. REPEAL OF THE UNION. The Earl of SHREWSBURY presented several peti tions films different parts in Ireland, praying for the repeal of the Union. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY asked if the Noble Earl meant to say that be supported the prayer of these petitions for the repeal of the Union Act? The Earl of SHREWSBURY was not prepared to an swer the t l uestiou. The only answer he could give was that Le had not made up his mind on the subject one way or the other He bad great confidence in the present Go vernment exerting themselves for the relief of those (and many time were) who were and had been suffering in Ire land, and towards whom the late Administration had been avowedly hostile The late Government had done nothing towards removing the complaints that issued from the sister country beyond granting emancipation to the Roman Catholics, and which they had only done through com pulsion. The Duke of WELLINGTON had not the smallest objection to the Noble Earl's paying every compliment to the present Government, but he felt bound to protest against his stating that the hate Government wad hostile, avowedly hostile to Leland. The measures which the late Govern • anent had in preparation, end which the Nobie Duke believed the present Administration were now bring ing forward, respecting Ireland, would spew that the late Government could not have been avowedly hostile to that part of the United Kingdom. Further, the measures recently adopted and put in force by the Government of Leland itself, and which he trusted had tended to the pertnauent tranquillization of Ireland, adopted by the very Noble Individual who, during the late Administration, had Leen dieectly opposed to such measures, went to prove that the late Administra tion could not have been as bad been described. The Earl of SHREWSBURY had already said that he was not prepared to answer the question that bad been put to hint. He then only answered it in the best way he could. He certainly, though he did use it, did not mean to have used the term avowedly hostile, he meant to state that, in the late Government granting emancipation to the Roman Catholics they had done it not from a sense of justice towards the people of Ireland, not with a view to conciliate or satisfy the people of Ireland, but because they felt the time was coma when they could no loner resist the measure. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had put the question to the Noble Earl for the purpose of knowing distinctly whether lie, possessed as he was of large estates bsth in England and Ireland, could really stand up and declare that he supported those prayers, which he in his heart believed, if granted, could have no other possible effect than that of subverting the happiness of the people of Ireland, and proving a total dismemberment of the empire. Lord STRANGFORD withdrew his notice of motion whiels stood for Friday next, in consequence of Lord Ellen boronret having a motion standing for the same day, and fixed it for the 21st instant. CHURCH BUILDING ACT.—TITHES. The Bishop of LONDON present,d a Bill for amending the Act for facilitating the erection and endowment of churches and chapels; in doing so he was anxious to cor rect a mistake as to what fell from hint in last night's debate, which had gone forth to the public. He bad been wade to say that the average of the livings of the clergy in England was 3551., and that the average of the income of archdeacons was 600/. a-year. What he had said was that the average of incomes of clergy in England and Wales was /135/., and that archdeacons had not 6001., but that the average slid not exceed 100/. a-year. Lord KING expresed his surprise that the tithe should :amount only to so small a sum. If that sum were multi ;Asa/ by 10,500, the number of clergymen, 4' would make the whole tithe only 2,000,000/. It was quite inteetlible to suppose that tithes and church lands amounted only a' 2,000,000/. or 3,000,000/. a-year ; he thoughts .5,000,000/. would be nearer the mark, The Bishop of LONDON said he had taken flits ealelf=' lations from returns made in 1811—the livings maleing, on the average, the sum be had stated ; but taking perpe tual curacies and all into consideration, the average was under 2001. a-year, assuming that the returns were correct. The Earl of RADNOR supposed the Right Rev, Pre late included only the tithe. The Bishop of LONDON said he included the whole revenue of the church, and out of the average he had mentioned the pay to curates was to he deducted. Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from the per sans employed in the m inufacture of kelp on the western part of the county Galway, praying fur the protection of that manufacture.. The Noble and Learned Lord ex pressed an earnest hope that a branch of industry which gave employment to (as we understood) 500,000 persons, might receive due protection and encouragement from the legislature. FRAUDULENT DEBTORS. Lord WYNFORD presented a petition to which he was anxious to call the attention of their Lordships. It was from three young ladies named Skerrett, residing in Staf fordshire, complaining of great hardship, from the want of such a law as that to which he was soon about to call their Lordships' attention, in the Committee on the Bill he had introduced. The petitioners stated that their father Trill lent the sum of 10,0001. to a Mr. F—., at that time a Magistrate of Staffordshi re ; that soon after that their father died, and that his executors sued this gentleman for the money, and in 1824. obtained is judgment against him, on which he was taken in execulion, and had remained in e.ustody in the rules of the King's Bench pri;on since then w ith property in his possession ; but that the petitioners, though in a state of the greatest distress, had never since been able to ob tain p a y ment of any part of the debt . They therefore prayed t h at tome means might he ad o pt e d to compel debtors acting under similar circumstance s to give up their property to their creditors.—The petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table. The NOBLE and LEARNED Loan then moved the Order of the Day for going into the Committee on the Fraudis lent Debtors' Bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that inconsequence of a communication made to bins by seine of the Judges of Westminster-ball, one of them o.:Xlember of their Lord ships' house, lie was induced to request his Noble and Learned Friend to put off the Committee till some day next week, which he presumed his Noble and Learned Friend would not object to, as the second reading had passed without discussion. The principle of the Bill he concurred in : he and his Noble and Learned Friend had the same object in view—that of preventing frauds on the part of debtors; but the difficulty he felt was, that the Act, as his Noble and'Learned Friend proposed it, would have the effect of bringing the business of the Insolvent Courts into the courts of common law. Lord WYNFORD said he could not resist the request of his Noble and Learned Friend, but he was rather surprised at the ground on which it was asked, as the Judges Lad had the Bill before them eight weeks. His Noble and Learned Friend was mistaken in supposing that the Bill would have the effect he had described. It would not in terfere with those who chose to go to the Insolvent Court, but it would bring those who would of themselves never go to the court; for nearly all who went to the Insolvent Court had nothing to give up. Those who had any thing stayed away, aryl remained in prison. His great object was to prevent fraudulent debtors from living in compara tive affluence in the rules of the King's Bench or Fleet, while their unfortunate creditors were starving. He would compel such parties to give up their property, but he would not compel them until judgment had been obtained against them. According to the present law, a man might go before the Insolvent Court when in custody on mesne proces ; but in this Bill he could not be compelled to make a surrender of his property until in custody in execution. The Bill was then postponed to'Friday week. The Earl of SHREWSBURY presented several peti tions from many parts of Ireland against the Subletting Act, and for an alteration of the tithe system.—Adjourned to Thursday. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 15. The gallery was not open till a Quarter before Five o'clock, on account of there being a ballot for two Election Committee,. WIGAN ELECTION. The following are the names of the Committee to try the merits of this election :—Messrs. V. Fitzgerald, Faza kerly, R. 0. Tennant, J. Wood, Seymour, Egerton, R. Palmer, D. Howard, Lord Mandeville, and two other Members, whose names we could not learn. WEXFORD ELECTION. The following are the Committee :—The Hon. G. Dundas, Messrs. G. Harris, C. Freemantle, Clive, H. Creighton, Buxton, Pringle, E. W. Pendarvis, Hon. C Pelham, Mr. E. J. Cooper, and another, whose name we could not hear. Several petitions were presented on different subjects. FOREIGN AFFAIRS. Sir R. VIVIAN said, feeling aware that it was com petent in any Member to propose a question relative to foreign affsirs, and seeing the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office in his place, he wished to ask him one or two questions. In rising to do this he had notthe least wish or intention to throw any obstacles in the way of his Ma jesty's Government, but as certain publications had gone abroad, the time had come when, for the honour and interests of this country, an explanation was required. The subject to which be alluded had been spoken of in the Congress at Brussels ; it had &so been widely circu lated through the medium of the French newspapers. Surely, then, the time had come when some explanation ought to be given on this great and momentous question.. An HON. MEMBER rose to order, when a question was about to be asked, it being not regular to enter into a debate. The SPEAKER hoped the Hon. Baronet would con fine himself to the bare question, and not enter into argu ment. Sir R. VIVIAN—Then I will read the letter to which I allude. The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member will see that it is obviously the general rule in asking questions, that they should be put as dry and short as possible.— This, most certainly, was an arrangement that all agreed to, for the convenience of the House. Every . , Member was entitled to ask a question of his Majesty's Government ; but it was not incumbent on the Minister to whom it was addressed, unless he thought proper, to give an answer Sir R. VIVIAN would then read only the letter, unless he thought it necessary to explain. The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member will see that he has fallen again into the same error. The explanation is the very thing which involves the point of disorder. Sir R. VIVIAN had read a protocol signed by the French Minister in England. A letter had also appeared in the public newspapers of the French Minister for Foreign Affairs. The Hon. Baronet here read the letter, as follows : Paris Feb. L 0 Sir,—lf, as I hope, you have not yet communicated to the Belgian Government the protocol of the :20th of January, you will oppose this communication, because the King's Government has not assented to it. In the question of the debt, as well as of the limits of the Belgian and Dutch territory, we have always under stood that the concurrence and consent of both states were ne cessary. " The Congress at London is a mediation, and it is the intention of the King's Government that it should never lose that character. :''l'o M. Bresson." " HORACE SEBASTI ANL" The question he wished to ask was, whether the Noble Lord had received any official notice of this letter. He wished to know whether that letter was official or not. He was officially aware of the fact that there were large bodies of troops at the present time assembling on the north-east coast of France. Lord PALMERSTON said, respecting the first ques tion he could only say that his Majesty's Government had certainly received from Brussels a copy of the letter to which the Hon. Baronet alluded ; and, having said thus much, be trusted the House would think that he would be justified in not adding any thing more in answer. For be • was sure the House would bear in mind the inconvenience 1 that must arise to the public service, if subjects were to be folly entered into whilst yet under negotiation. With respect to the second question, he could state it was cer tainly true that a certain force was assembling ou the north-east coast of France, but he believed the numbers of that force bad been greatly exargerated. He would, however, state, that his Majesty's Govern ment continued to receive from the Government of France, not only as regarded the object of assembling this force, but on all other subjects, the most earnest wish and desire that all intercourse between each nation should be maintained in the greatest friendship and amity. The Government of Franco not only expressed these friendly wishes towards England, but r.lco wished equally to main tain a friendly intercourse among all the great Courts of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) GAME LAWS. Mr. FYLER wished to ask the Noble Marquis (Chan dos) whether it was his intention to persevere in the motion he had given relating to the Game Laws. The Marquis of CHANDOS felt himself placed in ai awkward situation. He had given notice of a motion on the subject, and ;r:. doing so his motive was to make such an alteration in the Game Laws as would satisfy the country. Since then, however, the Noble Lord opposite (Altborp) had expressed his intention of bringing mu - a Riil on the same subject. Such being the case be had proposed to the Noble Lord that the Bills should be re --ferred .to a Cominitize pp stairs ; end, thet:efore, before by . answered the Hon. Mernbee3.p.e.„'Aion, he shiiuld wish to know whether the Noble Lord agreed t. 7 07., proposition ? Lord ALTHORP said, that after seeing the :-Johle Marquis's bill, be considered it of that nature that left him no alternative 1),.t to bring is a new Bill, in which it certainly was his intention t. persevere. EXPORTS AND INIPOT: , . Mr. Alderman WAITHNIAN rose to submit certain resolutions of which be had given notice on this subject. His resolutions were founded upon returns which were presented to that House. Ever shies he WI-Ivan itt that House be bad observed the greatest - fidlacies prevail wit!, respect to the condition of the country. The distress of the country had -aiw,us been declared to be of a temporary nature, whilst our exports were referred to as a proof Of increasing general prosperity. It n,ow began to be ad mitted that the distress had assumed a permary;O:character. It had always been his opinion that this distress was mainly atiribUtable to the measures adopted with respect to the currency, b 1 which the burdens of the country had been doubled. Looking to the acknowledged distresses of the country, it way the duty of Coat House to consider `Low far the measures hitherto suggested, such za emigra tion, a revision of the poor laws, or remission of taxation, were calculated to remove them, or afford sul , stantial per manent relief. In his opinion they would always prove abortive, futile, and inefficacious- The disclosures in the documents which he should have occasima 1,..? produce, were in themselves so extraordinary and apparently ira, probable, that he could not help feeling a good deal of astonishment at the apitthy ecbibited by he ' House or Commons, for *a long series of years, Loader sg e.t.a:urn stances ; yet so it was, for no Hon. Member 114 d liLrett -fine ever thought of devoting his attention to • their ade quate elucidation. For the first five years of the preselit century, for it was not requisite for him to refer farther back than the last 30 years, the real value of our exports bad exceeded the official by 15,000,0001. per annum, and in 1813 that excess was reduced to 6,000,0001., Whereas in* 1819 there was a depreciation of 10,000,000/, sines which, there has been a yearly depreciation to nearly the same aitaanat. The real value in 1803 exceeded the offi cial: by 20,000,000/., yet, when they referred to last yea r, they would find that it was, on the contrary, 29,000,0007.- below it. His Majesty's Speech in 1830 had stated that the exports of that year exceeded those of all the former years, than which no assertion, he would venture to assert, could be more fallacious. How could that be called na tional prosperity which gave away annually not less than 4,500,0001. sterling in the labour of the country without receiving a single shilling in return? During the last fiveycars the depreciation amounted to 28,000,000/.per annum, hart they were told at the same time that the foreign trade of the country bad increased. It appeared, however, that during the first 10 years of the last 30, there was a depreciation, amounting to 15,000,0001. ; and during the average of the last years preceding 1830, there was a si milar depreciation to the amount of 9,000,0001. This gradual depreciation was certainly a point well worthy the serious consideration of the House, at a time when it was proposed to administer relief by a remission of taxes. To the tax on printed calicoes he for one was not inclined to object, but the Noble Lord, he trusted, was aware that such an act must necessarily entail considerable losses to the amount of 20 per cent., if not absolute ruin, on all who had stock in hand to any serious amount, unless they should be afforded compensation for the injury which the Legislature would otherwise inflict. He charged the Government, as well as all Governments ge nerally, for the last twenty years, with having devised measures ostensibly to promote the export trade, which had, nevertheless, quite a,contrary eff,ct. There was to doubt sufficient property in the country to prevent the ex istence of such severe distress as the large body of the lower classes had so long been enduring, but it was the inequality of its distribution to which he attributed the privations of the people. During the ten years which had elapsed from 1808 to 1819, the average real value of the exports had increased 4,000,500/. per annum, while there was a cor responding increase in the population ; but in the ten years previous to 1830, although the population had then also proportionally increased, the average real value of the expom is had actually decreased annually 6,500,0001. At present, there was no doubt whatever that profits were at once low, while trade had diminished—two fads, he sub mitted, sufficiently formidable to people in business, al though no very unfavourable inference could be legiti mately deduced from the existence of either unconnected with the other. The Board of Trade he bad always looked upon as one of the greatest nuisances of the country, under the system of management which had been adopted hi therto. Amongst the measures recently brought forward by Ministers, he regretted to perceive that they intended to destroy our Canadian timber trade for the purpose of establishing commercial relations with the Baltic, where only a very small proportion of our produce (and that little chiefly colonial) was consumed *; whereas the con sumption of British produce was very general in the Canadas. This might be fully attested by a reference to our exports of cotton twist, amounting to 5,000,000, of which eight-tenths at least were exported to America. The home consumption of the necessaries of life among the lower and middle classes, he was sorry to find, had not latterly by any means increased, notwithstanding the frequent assertions in Royal speeches to the contrary. He had also to mention what was no less to be lamented, that the losses on goods exported of late years had fre quently been immense. The whole of the Honourable Alderman's statement may be found to be embodied in his resolutions. The Honourable Alderman said, that though he had great confidence in the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer individually, in his can dour and high-mindedness of purpose—(Cheers)—he was convinced that the Administration of which he was a member would lose their hold on public opinion if they persisted in the present delusive system of export trade. Ministers might rest assured, that either they must reduce taxation to existing prices, or raise prices to a level with our taxes. There was no alternative. As he had stated, he would not repeat the numerous resolutions of a former occasion, which had appeared in the public prints, and to which he had then directed the attention of the House, but should move one embodying the principle of all. With this resolution the Hon. Alderman concluded. Mr. IRVING said, that the greater part of the speech of the Hon. Alderman had been a recapitulation of inte resting returns printed by order of the House, and exhibited great industry on his part. The Hon. Alderman had re lied much upon the difference between real and official value ; but he should have recollected that the reduction of taxes and several other causes had contributed to di minish the price of every article, and that circumstance alone was sufficient to account for the difference between the real and official value in these returns. These causes acted upon the scale in the ascending and descending line, so that when prices were high the returned value was high, and when the prices were low the value in the same manner became low. _ _ _ , Mr. ,ROBINSON contended, that the Government, had in their free trade system, began at the wrong end. It they wished to make the experiment fairly, they ought first to establish a free trade in corn. There could he then no objection to a free trade in manufactures ; but, so long as the absence of prohibition existed towards the manufactures alone, so long must the experiment be'un successful. He expressed himself favourable to a pro. perty tax, and thought it would be better to impose a graduated property tax at once, t h a n thus to contin ue coldly to tamper with duties comparatively trifling. If the Noble Lord had the courage—the moral courage— to propose such a tax, he doubted not he would succeed, and would be thus enabled to relieve the people from the burthen of the excise and assessed taxes, and to im. pose an impost in their stead, which never could press so severely on the poor. He did not see why the fund holders should be exempted from taxation ; and said, that under the existing state of things, the large fundholder, either by living in a garret, or in a foreign country, might altogether avoid contributing to the burthens of this nation. He also remarked that by the repeal of the excise and assessed taxes, three millions now expended on their collection would be at once saved to the people. Ile anxiously maintained that home and colonial traders should be encouraged and supported in preference to all ethers. He disapproved of the diminution of the duty upon French wines, and suggested the imposition of a tax on machinery —the improvement in which had, he stated, thrown vast bodies of men out of e mployment. Mr. W. WHITMORE was of opinion that wi re it net for the great improvement in machinery, we never should have been able to maintain the struggle with foreign natims. He did not wish to encourage foreign trade at the expence of the borne or colonial trader;— but he thought it better to leave trade alone, than to place it under the controul of any Mini.. ster, even if he possessed the e nlightened views of the Honourable Member opposite. He was strenuously opposed to a property tax, and was convinced that if it were now laid on, the clamour against it would be ere long greater than that against any tax at present felt to be oppressive. He agreed with the Hon. Member that an alteration should be affected in the corn laws— and a repeal of the monopoly they supported, and all kindred monopolies. He remarked, that the atnazement of the Hon. Alderman periodically repeated in that House respecting the difference between real and official value might have well ceased before OW, the reasons fur it beir.g so very obvious. To prove the increase of manu factures, it was only necessary to look at the immense in crease. in the importation of the raw material k. cotton within the last fifteen years had increased fraPi 450,000 bales to 800,000 bales, and silk and wool were nearly in the same proportion. Never was there a pet iod, in 'fact, when tha manufactures of the country were in a more healthy state. Only leave men to manage their own interests—on l y leave the home, colonial and foreign trades to them selves, and there would still be a vast augmentation in the production of the country. Mystifications like those attetripte4 by the Lion. Alderman and the Hon. Member for Worcester alone 9cc,: - .sioned danger and depression. Mr. MORRISON adverted to the extraordinary theo ries broached li , various Hon. Members on all sides ; for instailcL, Ile lion. Alder man had contended that the foreign trade of rise ;;opntry was diminishing, and that taxation was no evil. He rejc.lezd that the currency question had been set for ever at rest, but the conatoorce of the country could never be securely prosperous until the great question of the Corn Lows was finally settled. Hi' opinion was thi.t. grain should be subject to no tax ; but, if a tix were impOse4, t ought to be fixed and intelligible. He believed that at no period since the ileace h a d trade been so thriving, and for so long a period as during the lirss; three years. Ile termed the return to cash payments a stug oadaots operation, which would never have been effected ha;; p:;o0's known what they were about; hut luckily a Minister was fo - ,ind hold enough to assert that twenty-one shillings were equal to tweriti. e iih; s hillings, and a Parliament base enough (he might be allowed to ap?tili,yi.tal,i,a g atepit;; l e t t t t h o e th g e lo d o e m ad y ) v to iel a v g s le o e f %tsiiiethllboittils. A . man and those who iigi,;24 7ith him, h e was co nvinced that the country' was not on the CYC of der:bate-ion, Many complained of the weight of taxatio n , an d , no doullt it wa,a top great, if less would be suffi c i ent - f or t h e .purposed of the btate; 1;;;t ;11:_3 true reason for reduc i ng taxes was that Government could he carried on w i t h ou t them, Not " r- de w and not that the people could not afford to pay them.- To state that the people could not afford tb pay them, was only to say that because they only eat bread and c heese, wants people o l they ought not to be taxed, but that if they eat beef and h s e v t a i s ie t r he b ph:nib-pudding they ought to be taxed. The fact was, the ‘ o v i o d i y ild ex i c )e us t e he fo s r at t l aiexew s were the well State, oarnil ill they The Statute-book contained Acts against the departure of .. ' mechanics from the kingdom ; but if we could export tilst machinery itself, it would be just as beneficial a branch of trade as any other. The existing law against the export of machinery operated as a bounty to our neighbours and rivals, and the result was, that France could now manu facture machinery as cheaply as Great Britain. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer were desirous of relieving the lower orders, let him lower the duties upon tea and sugar, which now had become necessaries of life, and found their way into every cottage of the kingdom. To remove a tax from an article of consumption was to give the con sumers the immediate as well as the full benefit ; but to reduce a tax upon an article of manufacture often only put an additional and an inordinate profit into the pockets of the retailers. It was a total mistake to suppose that taxation raised the price of labour; it raised the price of the article on which the tax was imposed, but it did not raise the price of labour. The importation of foreign ma nufactures only rook place when they were better than our own, and articles brought from Lyons, and thought excel lent before the late improvements in our silks, would now hardly be considered fit for wear. The present state of trade and manufactures warranted the experiment, and he had no duubt that in three or four years, we might throw our parts open to all the world, and defy competi tion. At present, wherever our manufactures were sent they annihilated those which were the produce of what was commonly called cheap labour, and he instanced Mexico in proof of his position, and he concluded by asserting that he was in a condition to demonstrate, that the labour of this country was decidedly the cheapest in the whole world. Mr. WARD, after thanking the Hon. Member who last spoke for the information he had given, and after express ing his entire dissent from the views of his Worthy Col league, begged to repeat a question he had already more than once put to the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer; he wished to hear distinctly what part the Governor of the Bank of England had had in the proposition of the duty on the transfer of property? It was essential that a right understanding should exist upon the subject. Lord ALTHORP—He had stated last night what had passed between him and the Governor of the Bank of England, although he bad, in part, been misapprehended. That gentleman had authorised him to say, that the measure proposed was perfectly practicable, and that there would be no difficulty whatever in distinguishing between transfers of stock for loan, and of stock for sale; that the duty could, therefore, be easily collected; and that no bar would be placed in the way of such accommodation as the Bank had afforded in the year 1825. T-le had not said, as he had been represented to have said, that the Governor of the Bank approved generally of the measure. He (Lord Altborp) had been particularly cautious upon the point, and all he had stated was, that the Governor of the Bank thought the plan perfeetly practicable. As to the general question he would make a few observations, without pretending to touch the various topics that had been urged. In reply to the Hon. Member for Worcester, he must ob serve, that he never meant to encourage foreign trade at the expence of the home trade or of the colonial trade ; but he objected to support colonial trade at the sacrifice of the home trade. By the alteration of the duty on wine he hoped to raise a million of revenue, without increasing the pressure on the consumer. His great purpose had been to promote the domestic industry of the Empire, and he had proposed the repeal of the duty on coals, because it pressed with great severity on the lower orders, while it also checked the increase of employment. The most effectual mode of relieving the labouring classes was to furnish them with work ; there was no room to relieve them by a repeal of taxes, and he therefore endeavoured to accomplish this end by promoting different branches of industry. As to the question of the currency, it was now happily in a healthy state : to make another change would at least be dan gerous, if not destructive. Early in the Session, there fore, he had said that it was not his intention to disturb what was now so well settled. The utmost caution ought at all times to be used in tampering with the currency. Mr. HUME took this opportunity of setting the Hon. Alderman right in what he had advanced regarding the difference between the real and the official value of exports and imports. A return on the table, for which he had moved, showed, that on what appeared 59 millions of official value, duty had been paid on articles consumed to the extent of 35 millions, and yet no less than 73 mil lions remained to be exported. The fact was, that the rates of value had been fixed a century ago, and it was different on the export and import; thus, cassia was va lued at Is. 6€l. on importation, and at 2s. on exportation. For the last twelve years the matter had been well under stood to all who had attended to the subject, and he hoped the time was not far distant when the tables of valuation would be changed. Mr. P. THOMSON expressed his acknowledgments to the Hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Morrison) for the practical information he had so ably supplied upon these subjects, and proceeded to observe, that he should move the previous question upon the resolutions, which the Hon. Alderman had for some weeks put in circulation, and which had already occasioned so much discussion. The Hon. Gentleman had fallen into a great mistake when he looks to price and not to quality. It was im possible for any trade to be, ;9 the Hon. Alderman stated it to be, carried on with loss. It would be, under such circumstances, very soon abandoned. It was not necessary for hint to go further into details, as the statements of the Hon. Alderman had been so fully denied by the Hon. Member who had preceded him (Mr. P. Thomson). He would refer to the statements which had been laid before the House last year, to show that there had taken place a very great increase of the consumption, as well of necessaries and luxuries, as of articles which are employed in manufactures, within the last two years. Another fact to which he wished to refer was, that wages had improved in the manufacturing districts. But he confessed that the manufactures of cotton were an excep tion.—(Hear.)—But he could not admit that their dis treas was to be attributed to machinery, farther than as machinery had rendered their trade one very easy to be acquire:l. That circumstance had led to an excessive competition of the people employed in the manufacture, which was still further aggravated by the numbers of Irish p ,or, who crowded into the northern districts of this . country, and in consequence of the facility with which they learned some branches of the cotton manufacture, contributed greatly to bring down the rate of wages. Mr. WARD rose for the purpose of disproving a state• ment that hail gone abroad, aff:cting the Governor of the Bank of England in his public capacity, and which had just TION been alluded to.—(Order, order.) He earnestly requested of the House to favour him with its attention for barely one minute, whilst he should read a paper which he had that morning received from the Bank, re specting what had been said of him in the matter of the transfer tax. In that paper the Governor of the Bank distinctly states that "he never was applied to for an opi nion respecting the propriety or impropriety of the pro posed tax upon transfers—(Hear, hear)—he had made himself responsible only for his opinion, that if the tax were imposed, its c,Rection was practicable. lie had left the imposition of the tax to the Noble Lord's own discre tion.—(Hear, hear.) But, for his own part, lie (the Governor of the [link) would give all due assistance to his Majesty's Coves fluent, whether it was composed of Whigs or o f T or i es . H av i ng b een a ppli e d to o n th e sub ject of the transfer tax, by a person unconnected with the l i Government, he had given his decided opinion against the measure."—(Hear.) Mr. ATTWOOD said, that the communication re ceived by the Hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the House, was perfectly in accordance with what the Noble Lord had already stated.—(Hear, hear.) As to what had been said of the improved condition of the country, he would say that it had been ever the practice of suc cessive Administrations to delay the application of effec tual remedies to the distresses of the country time after time, upon the plea of recent improvement. There never was a thue, be the distress what it might, but the Go vernment of the day were aisle to show, from Treasury and Custom-house returns, that the country was in a state of improvement—(Hear) —and those returns were always referred to, as if they proved a general, and mot merely a partial, improvement—if they did redly move improve ment at all.—(lfear.) He hoped the House would pass a resolution, forbidding any Member of the Ministry to read a return from the Treasury or Custom-house, to illustrate the improvi ng condition of the people, without paying the pe na l ty of reading immediately afterwards some petition of the people, in order to show whether they agreed with the Ministers respecting their condition, which they would certainly be allowed to know best.— (Hear, and laughter.) The same observation would apply ;:o the epeech of the Hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Mor rison), who had attempted to contradict the statement of the people themselves respecting their own state. Mr. T. P. COURTENAY did not understand the Right Hon. the Presi4ent of the Board of Trade to make a general statement of national property ; but he thought with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the documents upon the table of the House bore him out in the assertion that the condition of the country had been in a state of grade 11 improvement for the last two years. Before lie sat down, he would take that oppo:tunity of assuring the llon. Member for Middlesex, that if he brought forward any measure respecting the corn I.lws, he should not find til,,iill,c(!tA so ulrmr:Ccigolou lamented e en, na tih v) ,:t u lling, at least , to con s id e r it. d --(hear, hear.)—He would r a e s n i i m ind po t s h s e ib Ilefotno. Gineanitriletamhaina, s.i i i ; W l ow ness of the prices o f ma • high puce and to promote extensive exportation to fereign countries.—( Hear. ) Mr. HUNT, notwithstanding the great research of the Hon. Alderman who had brought forward the motion, could not have understood the subject from what the Hon. Alderman bad said. He could have understood but little of it, had it not been for the clearness with which the Hon. Member for Bridg north (we understood Mr. Hunt to say) had spoken upon But the corn laws, to which allusion had been made, were a subject with which he was better acquainted. He had always been hostile to them, and he agreed with an Hon. Gentleman near him, that nothing would be set tled in the affairs of the country, until those laws were abolished. He admitted the truth of those statements which showed that the country was wealthy whilst the mass of the population was exceedingly poix.— (Hear, hear.) —Amongst the luxuries--of which an encreased consumption was shown by the documents alluded to—tea was one of the most prominent. He denied that an encreased consumption of tea was any proof of the encreased comfort of the people.. He knew many a cottage in which tea was used, and with, perhaps, sometimes sugar, in which there was at the same time the most miserable want, squalidity, and rags.—(Hear, hear.)—He did not mean to coneleinn the use of tea. It was a most pleasant and refreshing—indeed, a most bewitching beverage.—(Laughter.)—Yes, lie would give it a con trary character to that which he had given tobacco.— (Hear, and laughter.) When he heard the improved wages in the manufacturing districts spoken of, he was prepared to admit that in one branch—even of the cotton manufac ture—the workmen (cotton spinners) earned from 16s. to 255. per week at present. But how was that ? They were compelled to work sixteen hours a day, the effect of which was that they seldom lived beyond forty years.— His business led him into more than six thousand shops within the bills of mortality, and never, since the memory of man, were those tradesmen in such deep distress.— (Hear.) Many of them were on the verge of the work house.—( Hear. ) Mr. MORRISON explained. After a few words from Sir W. Jonsisow, Mr. EWART, and Mr. T. MARTIN, Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN rose to reply, contending that the distress at present prevailing was exceedingly great• In one parish with which he was acquainted, containing 800 houses, 200 householders were summoned for the payment of poors'-rates within the past year. As to the facts that he had stated in his first speech, not one of them had been disproved. He had been referred to official ac counts. He had established his positions upon the most impregnable grounds. Some Hon. Membeis had thought proper to tell him to come forward with some specific measure—that was not his business ; let them but place him in the situation of Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and they would soon find that he should bring forward something definite and specific.—(A laugh.) Much had been said, he observed, respecting the silk trade and its alleged improvement, that be begged altogether to deny. The resolutions of the Hon. Alderman were then put and negatived without a division. APPRENTICES' LABOUR REGULATION BILL. Mr. HOBHOUSE rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of the hours during which apprentices should be employed. The Bill which he should then have the honour of submitting to the House, was one which he had every reason to suppose would meet the views of all the master manufacturers, and that they would most readily concur in it. It was their opinion, and it was also the opinion of all with whom he had an opportunity of communicating, that the measure of which he contemplated the introduction would put an end to the system of immorality and of cruelty, which now unfortu nately prevailed to a very distressing extent. He had been informed by master manufacturers, that unless the legisla ture interfered effectually to alter the present working hours of apprentices in the cotton factories, the large establishments could no longer compete with the poorer ones. The first alteration which he proposed to make in the existing law, was to extend the protection afforded to apprentices from the age of sixteen—the period at which they ceased to become objects of care to the law—to the age of eighteen. At present, the hours of work were, in fact, twelve. They spent thirteen hours and a half from the commencement of their daily labour till its close— within which they were allowed one hour for dinner, and half an hour for breakfast. That he conceived to be too little ; and he should accordingly propose to limit the period of active employment to eleven hours and a half; for he thought—and the masters agreed with him—that for persons under the age of eighteen, eleven hours and a half were as much labour in the course of the twenty four hours, as they ought to be subjected to. The House had always recognised the principle, that it was the right and the duty of the legislature to interfere in these matters; and he was sure the more it was looked into and examined, the more the advantage and necessity of it would be found apparent. Mr. FYLER seconded the motion. Mr. HUME objected to any general prohibition of working during the hours of the night. If any such regu lation was contained in the proposed Bill, he should cer tainly oppose it. Mr. SADLER gave the proposed measure his most cordial anent. Lord MORPETH observed, that it was called for loudly with the masters and the operatives. Mr. LITTLETON also gave the Bill his support. Leave given to bring it in. BUCKINGHAM PALACE.—WINDSOR CASTLE. Lord ALTHORP brought up papers relating to the New Palace, in St. James's-park, and the cost of the fur niture of Windsor Castle. These having been read and laid on the tattle, the Noble Lord proceeded to say, that when be first ca he into office, he found a great number of papers on the subject of those buildings, setting forth many and urgent complaints of non-payment—they stated that large sums of money were due to them, and that, in consequence, they were suffering great distress. The ob vious cause of this was, that the estimate had been greatly exceeded. The original estimate for Buckingham Palace amounted to 496,0001., which estimate had received the sanction of Parliament ; the expenditure to Midsummer, 1830, was no less than 576,353/. A further sum of 3,1101. had been granted upon official responsibility, which left the whole excess over the estimate somewhere about 76,000/. It was calculated, that by the sale of machinery u-ed in the building, and of rejected materials, there would be realised a sum of 5,0001., leaving the net excess 71,000/. As to the state of the works at the New Palace, it was indisputable that they were not at all so far advanced as to render that building habitable, or anything approach ing to a habitable state. The estimate of what remained to be done was very considerable; the estimate made by Mr•. Nash of works not yet begun amounted to 21,0001., and of works commenced under the orders of the late King and not included in the foregoing calculations, the esti mated cost was 25,000/., and that also was exclusive of 4,000/. for the garden. Thus, then, there were 121,000/. still to be provided. It would of course be not at all fair towards Mr. Nash, to say that his estimate had been exceeded to any thing like that sum; in fact, it had not been exceeded more than about six and forty thousand pounds. Under the circumstances which he hail stated, it became necessary for the House to see what course it would be proper to pursue, In his opinion, and he thought the lion. Members would concur with him, that opinion was, that the most expe dient mode of proceeding would be to refer the whole mat ter to a Select Committee.—(Hear.) The expence of the furniture of Windsor Castle was the next subject to which he wished to direct the attention of the House, and which he thought ought to be referred to the Committee, of which he meant to propose the appointment. The original esti mate for the furniture of Windsor Castle was 143.0001. The bills for it amounted to 203,9601. A Right Hon Gentleman opposite said, that he would not pay any sum beyond 35,0001. until that bill should have been examined and looked into. The excuse offered by the tradesman who made the estimate, and who so far exceeded it for this furniture, was, that it was so extraordinary and unusual, that it became impossible for him to form a correct esti mate of its cost. The excess in that case amounted to 61,9601. ; with reference, then, to this matter, there were 269,000/. provided for by Parliament, and 295,0001. for which no provision had been made. From all this, it appeared to be a case which absolutely required being re ferred to a Committee to inquire how this expenditure had been incurred. Lie certainly was bound to say that no thing could be more handsome than the manner in which Windsor Castle had been furnished, and it was, therefore, difficult for tradesmen exactly to estimate the expence of such furniture. This might, perhaps, be a reason to in;: duce the Committee to declare that the charges were not unreasonable ; but, at all events, he thought that, before the House could vote the money, there ought to be an in quit y into the circumstances.—(hear, hear.) lie there fore moved that the papers should be referred to a Select Committee. . Colonel SIBTIIORPE should take the sense of the House as to suspending the works at Buckingham-hous e and Windsor Castle, till they had ascertained the capabi lity of the people of this country to maintain those exor bitant demands, which he must designate as unwarran table luxuries and superfluous extravagance.--(Hear.) Mr. HUNT stood up for the people of Eng Lind ; and if the House agreed to a Select Committee, he trusted that it would be such a one as would satisfy the public. The countryprnfi profligate, t w e, wi n n m ne u n c e h aa i a n r d y e , h a t n ed d teoxtthraevPagraensst ef;peundlit if the country had been in the greatest state of p - he should protest :against the payment of any P the charge till the whole had been investigated thing, lius e . all He himself bad long ago described it at a publ ic as a mixture of mud and magni fi cence ; bes i4eB ( m H a e n a k r, , i n h d ea h r hear.) unanimously With r regard d d to e c i t d h e e d t so u p te. o was built in such a way, that if any of the fain tly out at the windows they could see nothing bu t fi t lic-houses. Never had there been such a b p e a f y o . r f e nr ; ita,ohdenopwrottheaattedthere against AV a 2toheo,opoaClyi. t i the di' 1 shilling, till the House was fully informed of ''''' the charge. Colonel DAVIES reminded the House that tbe Lord could not have made a more popular POP" ' that of the appointment of this Select Coralnittee. Mr. HUME asked if they were to be called on Y e .t year to examine the estimates of overrun and u l 'i u o ' expenditure, where the duties of the House We jt, o 1 If any individuals had incurred this expe.nse vi' — ‘ , ° ing the sanction of Parliament for it, let then pt —(A laugh, and hear, hear.) If the late gATtioreg taken it on th emse l ves t o di rec t a l arg er exP ellu- o rt the House had sanc ti one d, h e thought tha t 7- ,,, 11 ought to be made of it, and that they s hould be ;de to pay. Th e on l y quest i on was, w h e ther the the y bad received orde rs or no t ? If t h e y had oot , : 1 7' d pay for it ; if th e y h a d, t h ose w h o b a d given --e were responsible. - Mr. HUDSON GURNEY had heard the 0° ..,r n. her for Middlesex say th a t h e w i s h e d that a Pr°r . should be built for the King of England. b e d Mr. HUME certainly had said that be "1: t Palace should be built once for all ; but tba quired that the plans and estimates should be .. 18 40 0 Parliament, and that there s h o uld be no devP;the them. When Lord God e ri c h wa s Chancellor of the chequer in that House, he rose on the occasioo and pledged himself that there should be no e r j estimates, and he (M r . H ume ) h a d sa id o ver on" ths t IP that the Noble Lord ought to be imp eached is for the excess which had t a k en place. '1 Sir J. SEBRIGHT was o f opinion that e to .-9 were so greatly exceeded, the House was bou nu f li inquiry by whose authority it had been done•-• e ee, He entertained a moat unfeigned respect for the el and its dignity, but he must say, that these e s r - ,:y i done more to give the people a dislike not only O r 00 0 titular individual, but for the monarchical forroefjeli meat itself, than any speech that had ever beet ! , ° f Mr. GOULBURN concurred in th e W i t - reo . , Noble Lord, at the same time h e c o u ld not n e ' r ,rool l ing, that he thought th e H on . M em b e r for 0 6 , 4 ' 1 41 (Sir J. Sebright) had gone rather far in prooee tl ; thr character of the expenditure, as it Wes V i n o - Bible that he could be acquainted with the facte t. ; o f In the paper that had just been laid on the to House: 0t Sir J. SEBRIGHT had only made a stateol A e 14 witi supposition that the orders h a d gone ber i : e g Pi been sanctioned by Parli amen t ; an d it wai ' - t btr e that those estimates had b een excee d e d, a nd 0 4. . h. been a most shameful an d scan d a l ous w a ste of money.—(Hear, hear.) ad 9' After a few words from Mr. GOULBUO SIBRIGHT, Lord JOHN RUSSELL was sure th a t hie li p :ii bad not been expr ess i ng any op i n i on as to anY 2 e ,:,iile l but only with reg a rd t o th e system t h at had P. r , - ,114 ' t , exceeding the expendit ure t h at h a d b ee n " 4 " - hil ,e house: and as to that, h e th oug h t t h at th e re O u rP' one opinion in the House.—(Cheers.)--Th a t t er e was a most impr o p er one , an d s h owe d that 0- ot it , to be laid down a fixed rule which should Pr ev id e i of d ., r, murrence—(Hear)—by d o i ng w hi c h they NO u ty to t. be acting b e tt e r, and better di sc h arg ing their du ,e3ri constituents. In the Committee appointed It' a ' i ti , respect to Windsor Castle, when theme was 3 gp o od recommending a vote of 100,0001., it W 39 l , e at)< : 70,0001. had already been exp en d e d--(Hear, Po ii sl''' in consequence remarks, in which the late o . ' l , tb e , had assisted, had b een d rawn up , an d i ns erted l j vs .! port; and he thought that if that was refetr'eerli might find some sort of guide for their future P r 0 1) In that r e port it was p ropose d t h a t b e fore a _ s ec ( work should be comm e nc e d th ere s hould be a3Pteoefi laid before that House, t oge th er with a yearly ' t t e , how much had been laid out, wheth e r the e't io t ot 1 1 been exceeded, and what was the probable O ' ''' • hi d would be required to complete the work , ph . means Parliament would not be voting 1104 , ii e' but be enabled to see their way b e f ore then' , -o to r i reject the vote as too expensive, or if theye l3° ' e lmed' i be able clearly to see what the amount of the e',‘ if I would IP. With respect to the furniture (Soptli,i Castle, they had not been able to find out h° W .. to tl , been expended beyond the vote of P a rliame fi c ,"o o € l l therefore, rejoiced at the appointment of this o e because it would enable Parliament to come to i cision on the subject. C" ° ;: Mr. CALCRAFT was the Chairman of the d ,$ t that had been just referred to by the Noble Lo r ;$ ll agreed that the paragraph in the report that is s , l mentioned would be of assistance in the fettirefsV ment of such votes. With respect to the furniture ° a I ,V Castle, it was true that a conversation bad.ta k , e se the subject ; but it was held that it forme d is ta'c the duty of that Committee to inquire minut el y We t ' Mr. LABOUCHERE had no objection to 3 pi er, in favour of Winibor Cast'e; but with re spect t° ,,( l ham Palace he hal quite a different feeliu r g s - ,el o hear.) If, however, h e un d erstoo d t h e Noble.' - • °f there was to be no f a rth er expense i ncu rred tnereo:o all events, the works, for the present, were 0 10 14 Lord ALTHORP (as we understood him) i ° : o ct all the works were suspend e d a t B uc kinghs 0 7 (s el Mr. GOULI3URN was s ure th at the NO 'bd P , do him the justice to bear out his position w hen , tii s that the moment it was known at the Treisau r ' t ee''' estimate had been exceeded, that moment we re e" put a stop to. had b , Mr. CUST said, that any gentleman who Buckingham Palace would soon sea that one ,ber there had been so great an expense was becau se no cne to controul the architect. of br Mr. CAMPBELL said that on the accessio°p.so t " sent Majesty, it had been stated that an open itig e sft,„e' ' t made from \Vaterloo-place into St. Jamea9l,en now, however, wished to ask, whether thePt? t ie j Sion was not lik e ly to be altogether disappaiu t td tro t p's Lord ALTHORP was afraid that he co t °, very satisfactory answer : but what be kn es state. The works were in such progress that s iee i o the plans and drawings ; but h e b e lieved th at :i , eulties arose front the owners and occupier' °' 1 1° Carltou-gardens. bee„ iv,o Lord LOWTHER sa id t h a t th e re ha l s it? which had been obje c t e d t o ; b ut w h e n he (I .o l ' he had left a plan in th e office to which tl:ere ° A s' objection or difficulty. oe so ,l Mr. HOIIHOUSE said that this discuss ' " i) tisfactory to the House, wo u ld a t least be 90 Led it ii try ; for the admis s i o n s m a d e by the Nob le , e r tai the Noble P 9 master of the Forces, tog etl y",, little responsibility which attached to those °,oge9 public purse, must s ho w th a t some new 51r , 0 0 t iord these matters was necessary. And it w" s quisite to wait for the decision of the Ccu°l;ile; House to come to the opinion that the I°, l l , roost grossly abused by the manner in wine rot diture had been heretofore conducted. I t •er observed that there was no controuling P°stlie architect. But was this understood wht,, 0 0 0 40 required at the hands of Parliament S I V ° 0 1 that the demand for that grant was a were e sCr only received as might suit the abstird' io 0 0 0 1 1 " bizarre, and ridiculous taste of any perso" ll, xo ele •o f . ; the superintendence of the work ? The v erb to told them that the orders for the f ur niture, e ;$ 10. 0 0; vagant and unheard-of that no tradesma° t ti s .: s g• mate their expellee; and now that the t",coo°)joifi, it appeared that there was no one to be 00 the fact. The Right Hon. Member for M kt handsomely s a id, "If th ere i s any blame, is a d o p t, amongst us; but I do not think that thellootie„s s i But he begged to ask that Right Hom en jt simple qu es ti on . H a d ther e not been a gr e Pig], tot the amount of the estimate ? And i f t be 'll'OJ rt Gentleman allow t d that, he ought als o t° eo eit f them on whose r es p ons ibility he ha d l i st ioo t e l fa r e (Hear, hear.) Nor was this merely a Pl e d st i ' oat shillings, and pence. It ought to he C arr ea re'l for on Mr. Nash's own testimony it 9 0 „ee expenses had been incurred " in conseque'srtj 11 tb~ of his Royal Patron and Master :lie " own words.__ hear, hear.) lf, them four ei to p a a e tt lie wanted to know how there had been t his 51 , rea , ly to pand er t o suc h com mands? , se a came a serious constitutional questio";_otioo',fitek that as such it would meet with full o' o sp pol ceo tr; true that a set of commissieners had baede they what was it that they had done ? rad io I' l° ti any expense? Had they placed any r e st "00000 operations of the architect? He h a das a iie ° lelf thing—so that, in fa c t, they only figu re ~11. of gentlemen, who had done i wthing at o o °I however, that the House of Cumulous is'