The Sun. — London, England, 1834-06-07 00:00:00

Would consent to the alienation of them to purposes not connected with the church." Again, the right hon. gentle- Man having said that he should oppose the original motion, thus proceeds :—" In justice to himself it was also neces 'a y, in an wer to the declaration of the noble lord that it was tLe.intention of his Majesty's Government to propose the appointment of a commission to inquire into the state of the chu:ch in Irela. - 4, and to prevent its being sup- Posed that by giving his vote he appeared to sanction the appointment of su h a commission, distinctly:to declare that he altogether disapproved of the appointment of such a comm:sion." Thus the drift of the speech of his right hon. friend was evidently that in the event of an ap- Proprit tion of the revenues of the church, they should be applied strictly to the purposes of the church ; this prin ciple ran through the speech from the beginning to the M. He had risen on the present occasion, thinking it (Ile to their lordships and the country, and of considerable 'Prortance, that the speech of his right hon. friend should htt be misunderstood. Earl G ltE V said, that there was not much difference after all betwe, n himself and the noble lord. All he meant to say was, that the principle of dealing with the church o,)erty for the purpose of a different appropriation from the present was asserted in that speech to which the noble lord and himself had alluded. he Earl of ELDON, in a very feeble voice, said that ago and infirmities prevented him from debating this ques t 41 ; but he would leave this as a legacy to their lordships ng whatever he had of professional reputation to its tura c y—that the state had not the right to appropriate t e revenues of church. _ Thy Duke of ttICHMOND said, that after the speech °I ii s noble friend in this house, and of his right hon. fri lid the late Secretary for the Colonies, and of the lionow,ble baronet in the other house, he eo 'd no t cons,der it necessary for him to go into the b ec at any length ; but agreeing with his noble tr.e.nt in his proposit.on, that public men had no right. to 'l' it office without affording some explanation of the cir 'tuns ances, he thought it his duty to say why he had se kined himself from the administration. It was with the deepest regret that he felt himself compelled by a paramount tense of public duty to sever himself -from those colleagues w ith whom he had acted for so long a period on terms of the greatest cordiality—from colleagues with whom he 'greed in the great and liberal measures which had been ,cLeir a rried, in hia opinion; fortunately for the country, by exerti,ns to a successful conclusion: ( Hear, hear. ) A s regarded the point in difference, he would appeal to thei r lordships whether he had ever disgraced his opinion? ( Cheers. ) 1 hey would do him the justice to recollect that this was not the first occasion on which he had avow& d luring the debate on the Catholic question he invariably stated that one of the greatest objections which he' enter tained to the passing of that measure, called a measure of 'on cession, was, that it would i ncrease th e d eman d s o f t h e a gitators of Ireland. He then stated to their lordships that th e y appeared to wish to gain one step, but what they r,eally required was to displace the Protestant clergy of I reland, by establishing there the Roman Catholic reli- Pn°o• These w ere hi s o pi n i ons th en ; an d notwithstand g the confidence he felt in the honesty and just Intentions of his noble friend at the head t f the G ov ernment—for he believed that no man i n thi s coun t r y as more anxious than he was to protect the church est ablishme n t- - et he differed from him in thi s : h e th ought that the appropriation of the revenues of the bViureh to secular purposes was wrong in principle. (Hear, ear.) He maintained that if it were once admitted, the lurch would not long be able to stand where it did now. 1 f they descended from this position, they knew not to W hat point they might be h urr i e d . If they conceded to she agitators of Ireland now, that th e state h ad the right to Ppropriate the church property to secular purposes, they Would go further, and it would end with the Catholic urch being the established church in Ireland. L e t th em look to what would be the consequences. He was one of those who were disposed to think that the Catholic ministers to be paid by the state. He knew that several noble IJi - ds opp os i te did not agree w i t h hi m i n t h a t op i n i on , b u t oped. they would give him credit for maintaining it con ,s9,,,ientiously. :suppose the country became involved in con siderable diffi ty andcul distress, and it was necessary to raise additional taxes, it might be said, " You have established pre ce d en t ; instead of imposing fresh taxes, take the La . oney you want f rom t h e revenues of the established e ,ierch, and appropriat e it as you w i l l to secular purposes. " tie had gone to greater length than he intended on this question when he rose ; but he trusted that he might be perinitted to add a few words, inasmuch as he should hot like to have hi s op i n i on on these important matters isconstrued. No man would go further than he was Prepared to go in th e removal of every abuse in the church Ziatiltshment in Ireland as we ll as i n E ng l and , but then e inust enter his protest against an alienation of the rch property. (Cheers.) He was quite disposed to 7: 3 into an inquiry as to the abuses with a view to 'Pair and restore, but not to overthrow and destroy, With a view to amend those defects which had crept atva 4 ; in the course o f t i me, b ut hi s on l y o bj ect wou ld b e, t h atH es 4ending th e influence and usefulness of protestantism: wo ng 'avowed hi thus much he trusted their lordships to ';' allow m to say, and , would believe, that he came 84 ,the determinatio n of l eav i ng hi s colleagues from a deep b ase of public duty, and that he did not, on that occasion, dduce 831 Y feeling having r e f erence t o hi mse lf a l on e to him to quit the service of hi s S overe i gn , f rom h__, ge lia, on every occasion, and under all circumstances, he 117-o received every mark of ki n d ness an d a t tent i on . N or the he.have quitted hi s no bl e f r i en d f rom any fear of - e responsibility, and still less fro m any appre h ension of en dering himself unpopular. He was well aware that th e „.._ rse he had taken was much more likely to render him hPopular throughout the country than remaining, under is e c ircums t a nces, in the ad m i nis t ra tio n . H e , a t l eas t, `Pd that in retiring from his noble frien !, his two claim right hone friends and himself had not forfeited their to iergood opinions of . th e i r l or d s hi ps; an d t h oug h t h ey d i f- Je ed so he for l one trusted th a t h e had om their late colleag not lostues in ththeir eir pprivate olitical ',w s , friendship. (Hear, The Archbishop of CANTERBURY had heard with surprise and regret what had fallen from the noble earl. That confidence which he had ever felt in the government ‘: 1 the noble earl a s t o th e pr i nc i p l es on w hi c h h e wou ld act. t7.wards the church, h e mus t re f er , m i s t a k en as it was , to et.e misapprehension which often occurred as to general pressions. He hoped that the noble lord was most hartnly attached to the Protestant Church of England ; :had al ways h ear d t h at the noble lord's private character a a quit e consistent with his public professions. He enter warted no doubt, then, but that the noble lord wished to (.I, c 'e on as firm a f oun d a ti on as h e cou ld t h e P rotestant d i l och of Ireland ; but h e , a t th e same ti me , entirely ' s agrted with t h e no bl e lord as to the measureby which op proposed to effect that object. Taking the declaration the noble lord with respect to the principle of the appro priation, of the revenues o f the church to any of the pur- Zses of the state that they might think fit, and combining hwith the.appointment of the com m i ss i on — an i ntention • ed l ea, he believed, was avow by the noble l or d- h e must th ,that he saw nothing before him but the subversion of ot „; Irish Protestant Church. (Cheering.) On every si oh -as ioll op which concessions had been mae in past ses th;tl thcy had heard from the friends of concession that tueo„ln which to strengthen the church—to place it on tip as - „,'"odation that it could not he shaken—was to give ehat h . " lt ch as was necessary to satisfy the people. Now, g kiri L e Must deny ; every prophecy of what they were to tn , concession had been entirely falsified. He had ) , T°sed that the measure which was brought forward last ti; We w ould be fi na l, b u t i t appeare d t h at h e h a d b een en 3. mistaken i n f orm i ng any suc h conc l us i on. H e, yer, was not the only individual who had entertained I _is ~ t nilaropinion, an d who had, in that respect, experienced ; , Onsiderable disappointment. The noble earl had made h a lstinction between th e c h urches of England and Ireland. le said th a t the circumstances in which the church of. Ire and placed were very different from those in which church of England wa s pl aced. He (the Archbishop i t ': Canterbury) lately admitted that there was a difference i t b the circumstances of the two churches ; but he wished be understood that he did not admit that there was 5 1iCer etice as to the footing . on which both were esta -14i.„"(1. ' (Hear.) They were equally the . establish e d re. ' ll of the country. A different supposition would be etra r .. 3 to the Act of Union. What was the object of I „, a t 4nion, but the security of the churrh in Ireland ? It b e ts ., ° l 4 Y on the express condition that the church should preserved as she then existed, that the Irish Parliament ..onsented to Ire land a merge itself in that of Great Britain, and . that th e greed to be the subject of the Joint legislation of t wo Parl iaments. It was, he repeatid, distinctly d o . ) i . vt'd at th e time of the union, that t h e c h urc h of Ire. should, in all respects, be considered and treated the Ole a s t h at of England. Whatever might happen, he, 7 t o h ne, would never remain a silent spectator' of the ruin ofside e Iri s h church (Loud c h eers f r om the Opposition p • • tle house.) Th e noble earl had spoken of t h e pro 'lPiety or making eoncessions to the spirit of the age, and ied the present measur e by that name. The concessio_n . , need not tell their lordships, a lesty's government would be would not stop here. His tt e compelled to - go from one t° another, until there was nothin g further left to con the (the Archbishop of Canterbu r y) thoug he t ht that Ili a noble earl at the head of his Majesty's government had ev ening avowed, in sufficiently plain terms, the course l'h e l e e :ded to pursue with respect to the Irish church. woni ci rt of the measures on which Ministers had resolved Proved that ruin of that church ; and all past exp er i ence with 'nal the c h urc h of England would suffer e qua ll y teltat of I re l an d . ( H ear, h ear .) i hr , a s h a m Earl of WINCHILSEA cou ld n ot help reproach jiglooi,ifseltewli bein g a t ra it or t o his country and his re ipol tau on antzt not raise his voice against the measure . of ,admitted h e u in which the noble earl had that evening Ireland He 1 ere eci f Eni tht a p t la h t i e a d th w a i n th ks raegndardthtoe tthankschurch of their orclships w .iesty' s government fouthe noble earl at the head of his Ma ,°owed his intentions the candour with which he had `ljear, hear.) He c ou i r d e garding the church of Ireland. not refrain from expressing his .rn approbation of the e jounsdtuct pursued by the noble earl :,'" 1 noble duke who had ,n;.; occasion. (Hear, hear.) ad dressed their lordships on '' l ent of a com mission for suc h e regarded the appoint ilull,equivocally expressive of 4 1 , 1 e r Pres as had been stated esi s which his Ma -tY s government had on the I r i s h church. It was in vain to deny that such a measure was only preliminary t her spoliation and ruin. ( Hear, hear.) Let the principl e be once granted that the scat,' has the' eight to interfere with the revenues of t . lio and clef ly them to other than the purposes of the cstanslied rel -non, and where, he would ask their lordship, were they to end? 11, (the Earl of Winchilsea) had on former occasions accused the noble earl at the head of his Majesty's government of the intention of making Ireland a Roman Catholic country, and certainly the present measure would justify him in re peating the accusation. He could prove to their lordships that within the last few years the Protestant population had greatly decreased in that country. In that short pe riod no fewer than 100,000 Protes+ants had been obliged to quit the country in consequence of the conduct of the Roman Catholics towards them, carrying property with them to a considerable amount. If justice had been done to Ireland, she would long before now have been a Protestant country. ( Hear, hear.) The noble earl had spoken of the necessity of yielding to the spirit of the age. he must tell the noble earl that he himself had in a great measure called that spirit into existence. He had indeed raised a spirit in this country which he would never be able to quell. In advising the present measure, the noble earl had given counsel to his Sovereign which his Majesty could not follow up consistently with his coronation oath. 'That oath bound the Sovereign to maintain the established church both in • England and Ireland inviolate (Hear, hear) ; and he trusted that his Majesty would see the matter in its proper light. He trusted that the ruin with which the church was threatened would call forth a mani festation of that spirit of attachment to the Protestant religion which he knew to exist in the-country. He called on the Protestants in Ireland to show that they valued their religion. He called on them by the love they cherished towards their country, and by. their sense of the duty and the love they owed to God; to come boldly for ward and offer their resistance to this measure. What, he would ask, would be the agony of any parent that now heard him, if his children were to be deprived of that reli gion which he venerated, and in which he had brought them up ? That was the prospect which the Protestants of Ireland had. Their lordships were aware that there were now two great -parties in , this country—those who thought that all religions should be regarded as the same in the eye of the state, and - thOse who cared for no religion whatever, and whO were, censequently, opposed to the existence of the church. Against these two parties the Protestant establishment had now to struggle, and he again called on all its friends to come forward and rally round her. (Hear, hear. ) The Bishop of LONDON and the Earl of HARE WOOD rose together. The latter, however, gave way. The right rev, prelate commenced by observing, that in the course of the last session of Parliament a measure. had been introduced materially affecting the interests of the church establishment of Ireland, and to which he was op posed, and indeed to some of the provisions of that mea sure he entertained most complete objections, but he had been induced to give his assent to the bill, for, after a most patient inquiry and investigation, it had appeared to him that the passing of the bill was the only chance of saving the Protestant church of Ireland from the dangers which surrounded it. But even alarming as these dangers were he must now add that nothing would have induced him to give his assent to the measure, had it not been for the as surance (which was given, and which he had every reason to believe)that the bill was.intended to be a final measure. ( Hear, hear.) When he now rose for the purpose of pro testing against the principle that the property cf he church might be alienated to other purposes, he felt called upon in justice to himself to state, that it had last session been de clared by the noble earl at the head of his Majesty's go vernment, a declaration which had been repeatedly reite rated in both houses of Parliament by the advocates of its adoption, that the bill of last 'year was the measure re quired for settling and tranquillaing Ireland. He must now, however, ask noble lords to see how the matter stood. The machinery of the very bill, which had been con structed to effect the object s w hi c h h e h a d already stated, had scarc e ly yet been brought into operation, and before the experiment had been tried—before the church of Ire land had ascertained' the effects of the measure, and the people themselves allowed an opportunity of judging of those effects, the whole provisions of that act were to be virtually upset by the appointment of such a commission as that which had led to the present discussion. (Hear, hear.) Sufficient time had not yet been allowed for the allaying of the excited feelings of the people to such a degree as to give the former bill a full and fair experiment ; but, on the contrary, by the proposed commission of inquiry, whole parishes would be disturbed, and new agitations created. He must remind their lordships, that during the last ses sion it hat been over and over again stated that abundant information had been acquired by different commissions which had already issued, on which to ground all the im portant changes that were effected and brought about by the bill he had referred to. lie was at a loss to conceive the grounds which could warrant the issuing of a new commission, except that some further encroachment was designed. After duly weighing the terms of the commis sion as stated, he could not see any object for which it was : appointed, except the taking away the property of the church, and bringing into operation its alienation in the worst possible of manners. ( Hear.) The commission, as he understood it, set 'out with the dangerous principle of perversion, that it would leave to the Protestant population of Ireland just sufficient property for their own ecclesiasti cal wants, and it held out to those who professed an oppo site creed, that a portion of the revenues of the established church would be transferred to the purposes of their sect. Such a principle was alien to every fundamental principle of any ecclesiastical establishment, and its inculcation was at complete variance with the peace and tranquillity of Ireland. (Hear.) He could not in satisfaction to his own conscience remain silent on the present occasion, neither could he, after the consent he had given to the bill of last year, on the assurance, more than once stated, that it was final, avoid now protesting against the course of proceeding proposed. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of HA REWOOD was understood to say, that he understood, from what had fal.en from the noble earl at the head of his Majesty's government, that it was con templated that a portion of the church revenues should go to the Roman Catholic church. Earl GREY expressed his dissent. The Earl of HARE WOOD now understood that such was not the intention of the noble earl, but beyond that denial the noble earl had given no specification as to the mode in which it was contemplated to apply or appropriate the revenues of the church. No .explanation had been afforded as to the proposed distribution of the surplus funds that might remain if such an allowance was made to the Irish Protestant church as accorded with the numbers of the professors of that faith. It was true it had been de nied that it was intended to give this surplus to the Roman Catholic priesthood ; but it had 'not been denied that the power would remain to his Majesty's government to make whatever use or distribution of it they might please. He believed that the same principle would also be applied to England ; for though it was true the Roman Catholics of England bore no comparison with the Roman Catholics of Ireland, in respect to the Protestant population of the respective countries, yet still there were persons in Eng land who objected as much as the Roman Catholics of Ireland to the established church, aril hence it was that he apprehended d.nger to that institution, from such a prin e.ple being once opened. (Hear.) Their lordships had been told .hat the issuing of this commission was an act of most mature deliberation. He (Earl Harewood) did not believe one word of that statement (Laughter), and he would give the grounds of that opinion. The noble earl op posite (Earl Grey) had stated that such a commission had been recommended to him by the Lord Lieutenant of Ire land in January last. When, however, did the commis sion come forth, and was it after mature deliberation ? No ! 'But on the night of Mr. Ward's motion in the other house of ,Parliament, and the manner and period of its proposition raised a strong suspicion, at least, that it was put forward in a crude and premature, if not incomplete state. (Hear,.hear,) It was painful for him to remind their lordships that they daily saw petitions brought before them, emanating from the people, and praying for protec tion to the.religious institutions of the land. Did not this fact alone argue that the "ptitiple entertained suspicions against those who governed this country ? (Hear, hear. ) He had heard speeehet from the noble earl opposite, and others, in defence of the church and state, but th e se afforded no proof of sincerity in the views they entertained. Would any man who had heard or read his Majesty's speech at the tt o ah p ia e nt n e ing of th e tdh,e present aun.diotnhebeiitr..et eesn sacenhstsuirrocenh,l religion on declaring,nd upheld, statephe ds a ,h s ohu i a t t hba,eudhmoduoagni main tained, o s m af rseontmot the hh was ee it:nnubmcioiissnhstiEceprhlsautriincoh.no.shtuot appear ss a u n e a a m t 00 übn be aoti-fisaEu com missionrittasaprtl: u et take s t G v l oea a a nt il u E rn d e thatGREY was surplus uod er understood obde taoppolbiesdertoele.aoctlrioesrsptuhreptaosbelse?, that the speech from the throne did not touch upon the subject of the church, or at least had not to do with the present question. The Earl of HAREWOOD repeated that no mall, on reading the King's speech, could have imagined any such commission was intended, though the noble earl had stated it had been recommended long before. He contended that so far from this course of proceeding being the result of the mature deliberationmwhiurche ohardigbineuetniudgesfcrroim pressure bed,it another instance of a measure without. (Hear, hear.) In making this statement, he h h o ad us n es o o o f bj p ec a t rl t i o am br e i n n t g ; a o b u out th a c e eo oll ut i r s ur i o y n , b h e e tw n the would submit P to grineoardtedreaito h a a v d oi h d e a en co h ll e i ar sio d n , .. u .Nel n uch a former occasion, about their lordships taking warning not same warning adopt a n y s t e p th a t mig ht l ea d to collision. The warning had again been now repeated; but it so happened that collision could sometimes be useful, even to the noble earl himself. He (the Earl of Harewood) could prove this from the noble earl himself. A few days ago a bill, objectionable to the Government, was passed a stage by the other house of Parliament by a large majority ; and, in order to arrest its further. progress, the noble earl in this house gave notice of a motion which was calculated to pro duce that result. After this, he would ask if their lord ships were to be told what measures they, might or might not be at liberty to act upon? (Hear.) There had ever been in this country a prevailing feeling in favour of the church establishment, connected as that establishment closely was with the throne itself ; that feeling had hi therto been backed up by the Government, and though for want of such a support it was now left to its own re sources, he was satisfied the people of England did not wish to do away with the institutions of their country. (Hear. hear.) If a further change was desired, it ought to be ef fected by a measure submitted to, and disposed of, by the Legislature, instead of resorting to the expedient of a com ' mission, which was not only dangerous in principle, but in effect would only create irritation, jealousy, and ill blood. (Hear. ) The Earl of LIMERICK made a few observations to the house, but in so low a tone of voice as to be almost wholly inaudible. The noble earl was understood to pro test against the commission of inquiry which had been is sued, on the ground that it was impossible the existing state of the church could remain. It had been said that the church could not rest as at present, and the authority upon which the interference or change was taken was the prin ciple which had actuated the great General Napoleon Bonaparte. He (the Earl of Limerick) for one would never consent to take either weapons of offence or defence from, such an armoury. The Marquis of WESTMEATH, who spoke from the cross-benches, deprecated the issuing of the commission of inquiry. The result, as he well knew, and so indeed did e very Irishman, would be t o raise and excite the Roman Ca thol.c population of every parish, peaceable and anxious for qu,et as they might be, to the expectation of some greater extensions of relief than would ever be realized. It was well known that the priest was the adviser of his flock, both in temporal and spiritual matters, and the question whether the clergy should be . paid would, he doubted not, be answered by a direct allusion to the commission of in quiry into the revenues of the established church, and their anticipated apprOpriation. In consequence, agita tion and irritation, at present in many districts allayed, would be revived and increased. He (the Marquis of Westmeath) would not bow to the opinions of any indivi dual, but he hesitated not to tell his Majesty's government that they would be disappointed in their anticipations as to the effect of the course they had adopted. _ _ The Marquis of CLAN ItICARDE commenced by ob serving that it had been assumed by the other side throughout the present debate, that the advice of the commissioners would be implicitly followed by his Majesty's Government,. whereas, as he understood it, the commission was sent forth to acquire a knowledge of such facts - and other information as would enable their lordships to come to a proper judgment and decision on the question. .( Hear, hear.) He thought, from what had been admitted on all sides, that a prima facie case fo r i nqu ry had been made out. Without in the least degree bowing to the judgment of any man, he could, from the his' ory and the records of the country, form an opinion of his own upon the question ; and in the first place,. he would deny that which had been suggested—namely, that the legislature could not appropriate the church revenues in Ire land from their present ecclesiastical destination. If, on inquiry, it should be found, as he anticipated would be the case, that the surplus revenues of the church in Ireland only assisted in overloading the wealth of individuals, and thereby deteriorating from the propagation of the Gospel, what, he would ask, ought to be done with this surplus, and could it not be more advantageous'y and more justly applied to other purposes ? He had the authority of a right honourable baronet (Sir Robert Peel) for a different appropriation. That right honourable gentleman had said, that it might well be applied to schools for reli gious instruction; and yet would not this be such an appropriation as had been deprecate 1 in the course of the present discussion? (Hear.) There were as stood Protestants on his (the Marquis of Clanricarde's) side of the house as on the other, and he should be asglad to see an unity of faith established in Ireland as any man ; but the present question was, how was the Protestant religion to be maintained in that country ? Much had been said upon the upholding of the Protestant religion, but as yet all the speeches had dealt only with its temporalities. In Ire land no less than 930,0001. were annually expended for the religious instruction of 800,000 Protestants to 6,500,000 of Roman Catholics, and only 14,300/. per annum were expended for the instruction of 600,000 Presbyterians. This statement alone showed a most Unequal disposition of r..venue, but even the sum he had already mentioned as appropriated to the Protestant church was not all that had been given; upwards of 500,000/. had from time to time since the union been granted by Parliament for building new churches. There was another point to which he felt bound also to call the attention of their lordships. Under' the provisions of an ancient statute, he believed the Bth of Henry VIII., it was provided that the clergy were bound to maintain the several diocesan schools in the country ; but the 14th report of the commissioners, in 1824, showed that of all the diocesan schools only 13 were open. Would any noble lord, then, venture to contend that such a state of things could be permitted to continue ? The effect of all these circumstances had been to raise a resist ance on the part of the people to the collection of church temporalities, and to expose the Proteitants of Ireland to the odium and reproaches of the rest of the people. Did not this case alone demand that inquiry and searching into facts which, would enable the legislature to come to a just and proper conclusion and determination upon the case? Again, the evidence which had been taken before both houses of parliament showed most distinctly that the church establishment in Ireland was mixed up with all the discon tent, grievances, and disorders in that country. Such, in deed, was the testimony of every man acquainted with Ire land. Whatever might be tfie result of the commission, he (the Marquis of Clanricarde) did not doubt but that the life-interests of the clergy would be most strictly pre served and maintained, and therefore a prospective Chang( would be beneficial to that most deserving body, inasmuch as it would remove much of the troubles and difficulties to wh ch they were now exposed. In conclusion, he was dis tinctly of opinion; that the more the truth was known, the greater benefit would be conferred upon the Irish church establishment. The truth could only be elicited by in quiry, and such an inquiry would, he was satisfied, con duce to the happiness of the whole community. (Hear. ) 'I he Bishop of EXETER said that the noble marquis had stated that it was necessary to inquire into the facts before acting, and that therefore the commission proposed to be instituted was necessary. Now he would remind the noble marquis that there was already a commission of eccle siastical inquiry in operation in Leland, and they heard f om the statement of a noble and learned lord not now present (Lord Plunket), and wjio was on that commission, that, as regarded one province of Ireland at least, the re sults of that commission were likely to be exceedingly im portant. The noble marquis had also asserted, that he too nevi r hard any one speak of the wealth of the church in I.eland except as enormous. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—As compared with that of other churches. The Bish p of EXETER—Even thus corrected, he could not help feeling astonished at the assertion, for he h .d last year, through the courtesy of the other House of Parliament, heard the leading Minister of the Crown in that house declare, that on no subject whatever did such gross exaggerations prevail as relative to the church 01 I -eland ( Hear, hear.) The noble lord added that he ha,. himself shared in the prevailing error till an examination o the facts convinced him of its groundlessness ; for that the property belonging to that church was by no meati. exoroitant. ( Hear, hear.) The noble marquis had also remarked upon what he was pleased to call the violation o; the duty imposed upon the parochial clergy of In-land 11)k an ancient act of Parliament , with respect to provid.ng for the education of the people. He must confess that he was n, less astonished at this than at the former assertion of the noble marquis, for he could hardly have supposed that a noble lord of the acuteness and accuracy of the observa tion and memory of the noble marquis, could have for gotten' that this complaint embodied what had for som( years been a standard grievance against the church of Ire hod, till it. ceased to be urged, because exploded and found to want foundation. The noble marquis had stated, an, * - to doubt accurately, that it was by a statute of Kink Henry VIII., that the parochi a l c l ergy o f I re l an d wen :messed to the tenths, and were bound to see that a school be .maintained in every parish, not out of their own funds as the noble marquis supposed. The Marquis of CI. AN RICARDII—I spoke of the d:ocesan The Bishop of EXETER—The object of the statute to which he alluded was, that the parochial clergy assessed to the tenth in Ireland should be bound to see that a school wa3 provided for the education of the children of their pa rishioners ; but there was this further provision in the act, that they should not charge more for the instruction given in these schools than the ordinary price. This was a very diffcrent thing from the parochial clergy of Ireland being bound to maintain a system of education at their own cost. Having said thus much with respect to what had fallen from the noble marquis, he would now take the liberty of saying a few words upon the same important subject now under discussion ; he meant the principle embodied in the commission which his Majesty's ministers had advised the King to issue. That commission was avowedly issued by the noble earl at the head of the government, on the prin c pie that the property of the church was held by a different tenure from other property (Hear) ; not only so, but that it might be dealt with by parliament on very different grounds from other property ; that it might be assailed in eases and under circumstances not justifying the assailing f private property. To be sure the noble lord did not deliver this as his deduction of right, but as the deduction of the spirit of the times. Now whatever that might be, they knew, not only from the professions of the noble earl, eoomuch th r a t t he whatever ehh the of i spirit now toldthem, dofwas the t t o i m b e es Earl GREY—_I said no such thing. The Bishop EXETER—He did not pretend to quote the precise words of the noble earl, but that was the sense of his argument ; if be were wrong, the noble earl could correct him in due season. He contended that the argument of the noble earl was, that all legislators, but particularly that house, should be p repare d to act up to the • • s pirit of the times, and that it was in consequence of the s pirit of the times that he had advised the i ssu i ng o f th e co mmission which was to be laid upon their lordships table. Th s commission was to ascertain, among other things, the amours rai c' to n of thethe principlewealthof otfhethcohuhrochhleofeaLr,elwanhdat, whatever r d ac ea spirit of the times _should deem sufficient, was to be the measure of its supply. He should not occupy their ford ships' a.tention further at that late hour of the night b, a discussion of this paint in language of his own, but would borrow that of a noble and learned lord whos absence he had already regretted, and who, he should have thought, it would have been particillarl`e desiralll? to consult on a question relating to the church o irelaid, he meant the Chancellor of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He held M his hand a record of what was uttered by the noble and learned lord on an occasion exactly similar to that under the con sideration of the other house of parliament a few nights ago ; for they must recollect, -that as there was nothing new under the sun, so even the vagaries of liberalism were not permitted to be distinguished by much novelty—the novelty was only in the way in which these vagaries were received. (Hear, hear.) Ten years ago an exactly si milar motion was made in the House of Commons as was made the other night, and on that occasion the noble and learned Lord High Chancellor of Ireland, then Attorney- General for Ireland, said—" That the property of the church might not be interfered with as well as other pro perty in the state, in a case of public necessity, he would not assert." Perhaps the noble earl thought that a case of public necessity had arrived ; but let him and the house listen to what the noble and learned Chancellor proceeded to say_." But it ought to be observed that on the same principle the property of every man in the kingdom was equally liable. He maintained that the property of the church was as sacred as any other. if they began with the church, let the landholder look to himself," (Hear. ) Ile really thought that these words, as might have been expected from words coming from such high authority, deserved the serious attention of all the noble persons around him, and not least, certainly, the attention of the noble persons who were members of his Majesty's government, and as such had advised the issuing of this Commission. Perhaps he should be forgiven if he . took the libeity of saying, that it was particularly worthy of the attention of the noble marquis at the head of his Nlajesty's councils in Ireland, from his very great pos sessions—and greater they could not be than he would know well how to use for the purposes of usefulness to his country, and honour to himself—must weigh down in amount the whole clerical income of some of the dioceses in the country from which his wealth arose. He would do well to take the warning given him by the noble and learned Lord Chancellor of Ireland in the speech he had just quoted. He need not remind the noble marquis, or their lordship s , that the great estates which the noble mar quis held, h e held under the Act of Settlement of Property' in Ireland. That Act of Settlement was founded upon the declaration of Charles IL—a declaration which did him honour, and which deserved to be borne in mind by every man who, by the w.ll of God, sat upon the throne he so unworthily filled—that he owed it as a testimony of hum ble gratitude to Almighty God for restoring him and his people to the happiness of the established and ancient mo narchy of this country, at a time when, to all human ob servation, such a restoration was hopeless. Therefore it was that he endowed not only the noble marquis, but the church ; further, being determined to carry into effect the pious directions of his murdered father, which were to in crease the income of the church in Ireland. " These last endowments," continued the rev. prelate, "he placed upon the altars of the King of Kings. Touch them if you will —touch them if you dare—and may God not visit upon you his curse for the sacrilege. The noble earl at the head of the government has made one appeal to your lordships, which I had hoped would have been answered by some noble lord on the other side of the house ; but as it has not been answered, I trust I shall be forgiven if I presume to attempt it." The noble 1 earl said that if this commission had not been issued, the hreissoAlulatiioens:s present in the House of Commons would have been carried. (Hear, hear, hear.) And then he said that t haveminis ters m formeds t have ; resigned; an a idr address t a o new administration mustesen the I Crown, framed upon Mr. Ward's resolution, would have been presented; and what, asked the noble earl, would have been the answer such an administration would have undertaken to advise the Crown to give? Now let us see what that a dd ress wou ld h ave b een? It must have been founded on the motion of the hon. gentleman, as we find it in the votes of the House of Commons, on the table— [The right rev. prelate here read the resolution. ]—lt is obvious that any answer must not only have confirmed this address, but have called upon his Majesty to carry it into effect. Then comes the question, what. answer any noble lord opposite would have advised his Majesty to make ? I cannot presume, my lords, myself in the positron of those who may be expected, under any circumstances, to be called to his Majesty's counsels; but this I will say, that any high-minded, any truly conscientious man, would have found no difficulty whatever in giving his answer when his Majesty called upon him to advise him on the subject. An honest privy councillor, one who remembered the oath he had himself taken, would have told his Sovereign that he had imposed upon him a most painful duty, a duty, however, from which he could not shrink, for the very position in which he stood before his Ma jesty, as his sworn councillor, compelled him to dis charge it. He would then have thus addressed him: " Sire ' painful, most painful, must it be to a Prince who throu g h his whole reign has shown but one sentiment of affection for his people, and of regard to the wishes a el happiness of that people as expressed to him through use House of Commons ; painful as it must be to such a Prince to reject any prayer coming from that House of Commons, I, as a faithful councillor of your Majesty, mindful of my own oath, cannot help recollecting the oath which your 3lajesty has taken. I must tell your Majesty what I am sure you would yourself tell me if I did not remember it, that as you !lave sworn that you will preserve all the rights of the clergy and of the Church of England and Ireland to the best of your power, you must refuse to assent to the prayer of the House of Commons." Any one of all his Majesty's councillors, in such a case as is supposed, might, perhaps, have added, " Some of your Majesty's councillors have thought that your .Majesty stands in a different relation to the oath as a legislator, and as a member of the executive emvernment ; but we are bound not to conceal from your Majesty, that all that nicety and subtlety, be it well founded or not, does not apply in the present instance ; for your Majesty is not now called upon to assent to an act passed by the two houses of parliament, and which will become the law of the land on your giving it your as sent, in your legislative capacity, but you are applied to, in your executive capacity, about which the most liberal construers of oaths have never yet raised the shadow of a shade of doubt, to do that which is in direct violation of your oath. T o th e p l a i n meaning of that oath your Majesty is bound to your God to adhere ; and at whatever hazard, even to your throne, you must remember what you owe to your God." ( Hea r . ) That, my lords, I would venture to say, would be the an swer of any one of the noble lords who sit on the other side of the house, if called upon by his Majesty to give an answer to such an address, founded on such a resolution. But the House of Commons who could approach the throne with such an address, would not be, in the language of the law, " the Commons of England," that is, the re presentatives of the people of England (Hear, hear), for he people of England are not yet prepared to laugh to scorn the obligations of their Sovereign's oath—they are not prepared to trample on that religion which they have tiways considered as their comfort and happiness in this vorld, their hope in the world to come. As to the Tait of the age, is the noble earl so slow in marking the changes of that spirit, as not to have observed some indi ,esiens, within the last week, that the spirit of the age will ere long be far different from what it was when he tdvised his Sovereign to sign this commission ? My lords, here has been raised a feeling of determined resolution, in the part of the people, to meet as they ought to do the iuble declaration of our Sovereign, which is yet sounding n their ears, as it will be for ever impressed upon their warts, that it is his firm determination to " maintain the ..eligion, and the rights of the Chur c h o f E ng l an d and of Ireland." (Cheers. ) The Earl of RADNOR next rose to address the house, but the first part of his speech was very mperfectly heard n the gallery. He was understood to remark upon the strange mixture of ecclesiastical and poLtical denunciation txhibited by the right reverend prelate, and to animadvert u pon, his continual appeals to religion, and in the same breath dealing out the curs es of God upon the house and the government. The right rev. prelate had told them that they were not, in the administration of the govern ment, to attend to the spirit of the age ; but if they were to govern for the benefit of the people, they must at tend to the spirit of the age. The rev. prelate and friends had acted upon that principle, for they now held a language very different fron'i that which they held a few years back. Bad not the house heard it admitted that there were no abuses in the church which required removal? Had they not safevkyea in r sa t g h o e , a pl u n ra u l t i as abuses - c hurch, he would h ave b een reprobated by every bishop in veng r dt pluralities venturednto denounced? the house. (C r i es o f " No, no. " ) No one could deny that the right rev, b enc h had felt themselves influenced by the spirit of th e age, an d on l y a f ew even i ngs since they had heard the r i g h t rev. pre l ate h i mself state that one of the greatest ab uses i n the church was the existence of pluralities. H e ( Lord Radnor) had read, in a pub lished letter of the right reverend prelate, a dd resse d t o l r y one Canning, a hadhe x to speak what amounted to saying, in so man y words, that h e would not accuse Mr. Canning of a violate his coronation oath by relieving the Catholics of their disabilities, for he would not believe that any one could be so debased; and yet the right rev. ' prelate afterwards accepted his present situation from a minister who did the very thing which he said it was im possible to suppose a man could be base enough to do. (Laughter and cheers.) Surely, if the right rev, prelate thus found it convenient to bow to the spirit of the times when his oven priv a t e a ff a i rs were concerne d , h e s h ou ld I allow the sam e l i b erty in the administration of public affairs. (Hear, he ar. ) But the right rev. prelate said, that this ' commission involved a gross violation of the coronation oath. The Bishop of EXETER—What I said was, that if the King had been, in the event of the resolutio n p r op o sed to the Ho use of Commons having been carried, advised to comply with an address founded upon that resolution, it would have been a violation of his Majesty's oath. The Earl of RADNOR did not see what difference there was between his Majesty's signing a commission of his own mere motion, and signing it, or, taking some other equiva lent step, upon the receipt of an address from the House of : Commons to that effect. But after all he could not un eerstancl how the step now taken could be pretended even tc. be violation of the coronation oath. The object of e ccinimissicin was not even to take away any property from the church, but to inqUire into the facts of the case. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Was it irripr*r . that his Majesty should be informed of the state of the church of Ireland? • i Was it improper for the head of the church to re . vue n 7 fdrinetion concerning its condition? (Hear, hear.) But that fie ihicierStood Was the whole object of the commission. ( Cries of " No, rick") Of course every body must feel, that if parti cular facts were Mticle td ap'peaas the result of the inquiry, certain consequences rang, follow ; but the strict object of the commission was to make inquiry: Ho ippretendetl that the spirit of the coronation oath was, thit the King should support the Protestant establishment to the Uttnosi of his power; and if the result of the inquiry to be insti tuted was, that the Protestant establishment was injured by the present state of things, he could not understand how setting matters right for the benefit of the church could be construed as a violation of the coronation oath. All this, however, was matter of subseqttenf. consideration ; for it was not all before the house at present. 'The right rev, prelate had told them that their own property would be en dangered if that of the church was touched. Now he (Lord Radnor) could not admit that the property of the church and of individuals stood upon the same footing. The property of the church was given in trust, for the perform ance of a particular trust for the benefit of the whole king dom : whereas that of individuals was theirs by the law, to be engaged by them for their own benefit in every way not prohibited by the law. But it was a strange argument to address to noble and ingenuous persons that they must not touch the property of the church because their own might be made to suffer in a like manner. Now, no one wished to touch the property of the church except for the benefit of the country ; so that the argument came to this—that if their lordships suffered the property of the church to be touched for. the benefit of the country, their own might also be called upon for the benefit of the country, and that they were bound to resist. He could not suppose, how. ever, that any man would be found bold enough to say, that if ie salvation of the country required it, his property ought not to be called upon to make any sacrifice. The Bishop of EXETER begged to say a word in ex planation. The noble earl had represented him as dealing oat imprecations on their lordships. He did no such t ing. He specially expressed his humble wish that those imprecations which might seem to be dealt out against what he considered a great sin, would not fall upon their lordships. The noble earl had also said, that in his (the Bishops) letters to Mr. Canning, he had said that the King could not assent to a measure giving relief to the Roman Catholics, without violating the coronation oath. Now he never had said, he never had written, he never had thought any such thing, and he defied the noble earl, at any time or occasion, to justify his reproach. (Hear) he Earl of RADNOR explained that what he said was, that the right reverend prelate, in his letter to Mr. Can ning, said that he did not conceive it possible for any minister to do anything so base and disgraceful as to advise the King to violate his coronation oath by relieving the Catholics. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE fully concurred in the sentiments that had been expressed by his noble friend at the head of the Government, and was anxious distinctly ti state the grounds on which he had not withheld his con currence in the commission which his Majesty had been advised to issue. It was admitted on all hands, in that house at least, that he had nothing to retract. It could not be forgotten, too, that an address had been presented to the throne, expressing a determination to uphold the institutions of the country, and to pass no enactment that should tend to injure them. In the spirit of that dddress he fully concurred, and it was in the same spirit that he had acquiesced in the issuing of this commission, the ob ject of which (though frequently stated before, it had been as frequently forgotten in the course of the present debate) was to inquire into facts, and not to report opinions. ( Hear, hear.) He believed the statements of the wealth of the Irish church had been much exaggerated, but this inquiry would not only set at rest these doubts, but would be direqed as to the manner in which the duties of the church were performed, and what duties were actually re quired to be performed. The noble earl opposite (the Earl of Wicklow) had assumed that the whole object of the commission-was to ascertain the proportion which the different religious sects in Ireland bore one to another, and to frame the church establishment in that country in accordance to that proportion. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne), however, begged to say, that in common with the noble earl, and also in common with his noble friend on the cross-bench (the Duke of Rich mond, we believe), the loss of whose assistance the govern ment had so much cause to regret, he protested against the adoption of any such principle. In his judgment, nothing cou.d be more mischievous than to attempt the arrange ment of the church establishment upon such a principle. While, however, he rejected the solitary pri nc i p l e i n it se lf, yet he thought hat no noble lord would contend that it ought not to be made a component part to be considered in any contemplated arrangement. He considered that he took the best possible care of the church of Ireland when he saw that the services of its ministers and its revenues were applied to the objects for which they were properly intended. He believed that it would have been most for tunate for the church of Ireland and for Protestantism in that country, if, not fifty but if thirty years ago, a com mission such as that in question had t een issued, and an improved application of the funds had taken place in con sequence. In making these observations ho begged to be understood as altogether excluding the idea of the formation of any other establishment, at the expense of the church of England. If there should appear to be a surplus, he only contemplated its appropri ation to pious and charitable purposes connected with the established church. The great object proposed by the commission was to Obtain facts and lay them before par liament for its consideration, and unless it should happen that they doubted the authority of the commissioners they would be bound to rely on these facts. If they showed that there was a surplus after supplying amply the spiritual wants of the people, he considered that s u r pl us wou ld b e at the disposal of the state, for such purposes as he had intimated. He was only anxious that the subject should be fairly brought before their lordships, and should receive due consideration, and he hoped they would not be de terred by any idle apprehensions from taking the matter into their own hands, which would insure it more calm and more beneficial consideration than it could have in any other quarter. The Duke of WELLINGTON said that certainly the noble marquis was difficult to be satisfied in questions of inquiry. No one subject had ever been more fully in quired into than that upon which the noble marquis was so solicitous for additional information. At that moment were there ecclesiastical commissioners appointed to in quire into the affairs and circumstances of every pa rish, and the emoluments of every living in Ireland. Com missioners had been before engaged in inquiring into all the circumstances attending the population of Ireland, and the state of society there. (Hear.) So that all things respecting the population and the state of society in Ireland ought, or at least might be better known to the noble marquis than the circumstances of the population iii England, or indeed, he might say, in the metropolis. What then was the object of the measure? Surely it rnus , be something more than the mere attainment of superfluous knowledge ? The noble earl who commenced the discus sion had found fault with his noble friend because he hat, brought the question forward. He considered that hi, noble friend was not alone perfectly justified, but that ht would have been wanting in his duty it he had not brough it forward. His noble friend, as a representative Irish peer, was a representative of the Irish people in their lord ships' house, and therefore was it his especial duty to cal for an explanation of a measure so materially affecting th. condition of the people, and the more particularly afte, what had been put forth in another house. The noble earl opposite had said that the measure contemplated b‘ Government was in reality very d.fferent from that which it was represented to be, and he observed that his (the Duke of Wellington's) noble frieLd ought rather to have moved an address to the Crown to remove tht present Ministers from their offices, and while doing this, the noble earl adverted to the spirit of the time, anti rather appeared to threaten the house with the spirit of the time. ( llear, hear.) Their lordships had heard a grea deal of the . spirit of the time. No man had a greater de ference for that which really was the spirit of the time than he had himself, but why, he asked, should the noble earl suppose that his noble friend had no regard to the spirit of the time, because he felt it his duty to call upon him for some account of a transaction which certainly wore a very strange aspect ? (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had given an account of the commission—his owl. account. It was not the same with that given by a nobl. lord representing the government in another place. ( Hear, hear.) Still the two accounts were not inconsistent. 11, must, however, examine the matter further. The noble lord who spoke in the other house stated that this commis. sion was-intended to be used as the commencement of a course of proceeding for carrying into execution the reso lution upon which he had moved the previous question. He begged to read the resolution to the house,—" That tht Protestant episcoi.al establishment in Ireland exceeds tht spiritual wants of the Protestant population ; and that, it being the right of the state to regulate the distributior of church property in such manner as Parliament may determine, it is the opinion of this house that the tem poral possessions of the church of Ireland, as now esta blished by law, ought to be reduced." And this beint the resolution, how was the commission to work? If thn noble earl looked rightly to the details, he would see that the inquiries of the commission applied not. only to tin revenues of a district and their direction, but absolutely tt the numbers of each sect, with the view of ascertaining by this what were their relative rights as regarded the ap propriation of revenue for spiritual purposes. Nor come the noble earl plead surprise, or want of ample time ti make himself acquainted with this measure. It was ne y hic u h po h rt ad tb b is ee s n ub c j o e n et t ! mp it la b t n e t, lsoundgd beforesudden measure t the u ; in fact been i n contemp l a tion for two years, and it had b eet abandoned rep ea t e dly, in consequence of declarati ons ( al we understood th e no ble duke) of members of th e govern. sd it del 'as di ° ffi n c c u l lt . went against it. There was a letter written by a noble lard, lately Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which had beet. read in the other house, and in reference to this the noble earl hai in his place declared, in the most positive terms, , that he never %%mid agree to the proposition which was get forth in it. _ . Earl GREY, in explanation, stated that what h 3 had said was, that if the letter contained any proposit on for the destruction of the established Church in .trela id, he could #ot, and he would not, agree to it. bus he had not admitted, that the letter contained any such propo sition: of well. k , ihit n ies e e d el n "l "fht-would after C irlDod(daiggthoiehietf Onlya Tlee in t Er t h l . i ejP e t i 4 l stl t s r hl i t etn is rn i g i i t n : t tki c o vii: l ce e N: ;; P r i th i ph c r s i h ol it e c eod acioett:oir proposition a r ti ael r t ntn a h t :e t i t' i llhel lG er i oe . y s s o % letter,l t e ß e lt .. i tt - r . Now, irat ( h ll e e tl r k , ed, he ala hair.) They this T bill heyhadto have been been eeni wasformed, nae e t , tfiet, the present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had made ano ther pteposition—a proposition for inquiring into the state of the Irish eb. - iirch: He should like much to see it. He should like to knott if it were a proposition comiccted with the resolution moved iii the other house, and which Le had read to their lordships, and whether it was absolutely true st t. that 6d t a h e par p o t p i a ss s s e vi present oen L f Lod d mH li ea . a e ss u pke t c e ed n e h a t n h t de i rl t i ad ,i.aerrt( c u, o dh m bp e forward ys thois allow i‘ with (hs ti .7 and referring to these matters :—" I recommend to you the early consideration of such a final adjustment of the tithes in that part of the United Kingdom as may ex tinguish all just causes of complaint, without injury to the rights and property of any class of my subjects, .or to any institution in church and state." Well, this the Government brought in the Irish Tithe Bill, in which they continued the appropriation for the be nefit of the church of Ireland. And as to the com mission of inquiry which had since been issued, he be lieved that no idea of it had been entertased until the difficulty had arisen on the 6th of May as to the propriety of the appropriation of. church prorerty. Now, when on a recent occasion the question was brought forward in another place, the noble lord, the leader m the House of Commons, declared that die commission was but the first step.. Neither was it a very regular step. The noble lord stated that the commission had been signed and sealed on Monday last. He happened to know that the great seal could not be put in motion without the concur t.en,-;~ of the Privy Seal, and knowing that the noble earl opposite ( Ripon) had expressed his dissent to the commis- sion, he felt a,..!tired that he would have sooner put his hand in the fire than have facilitated its issue by affixing the privy seal to it, so as to render it fit tor the reception of the greet seal. The fact was the noble eats had not put the privy seal to this commission. ( Hear, hear.) The great objection to the commission was, that it hael been made to proceed from the King ( Cheers), and not L'-om either branch, or through the intervention of either brazteh, of the legislature. (Hear, hear.) It was the King wiz , ordered that the great seal should be pot to the commis sion. (Hear, hear.) But there really was no reason why a writ of emergency should have been resorted to, and the powers of the crown called into action. ( Hear, hear.) He said his Majesty was not well treated when he was brought forward on this occasion. (Cheers.) There was no emer gency. The government might just as well have waited until that day (Friday) for a noble lord holding the privy seal who would not hesitate to affix it to the document. No point was gained by it.. Nothing had been attained by it, excepting that which indeed was the apparent object of the whole transaction—to carry a few votes in Parliament. (Cheers.) He had professed always, and he did so now, his unwillingness to pronounce a judgment as to the obli gations of the coronation oath, but this he decidedly would say, that even if his Majesty were not bound with respect to legislative proceedings, yet that his Majesty's advisers should have paused before they recommended him to inter fere personally, as he had done, in a case such as the pre sent, one affecting the church, and this the more especially when there was no necessity, no reason which could be fairly and honourably urged for a writ of emergency. ( Hear, hear, hear.) He felt that it was unnecessary for him to trouble their lordships with any thing more upon the subject, so fully and ably had it been already handled by his noble friend. He would conclude by protesting against the commission of inquiry as highly . dangerous, and by expressing his strong disapprobation of the course which his Majesty's ministers had thought proper to pursue. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he did assure their lordships that he had most sincerely wished, not only that he himself should be relieved, after having sat, as he had done, since ten o'clock in that house, but that likewise their lordships should be relieved—he from the painful necessity of uttering, and they from that of hearing, the few observations which he now felt it his duty to offer upon the subject. Some short time since he should have boldly said that such would have been the infallible result from the state of the discussion. Unfortunately, however, about that period a new degree of velocity and of violence w s given to the debate. The right rev. prelate had risen, and he indeed had given a new impulse to the lagging debate. The observations which that right rev. prelate had thought it fitting to make had called up his noble friend; he had been succeeded by the noble marquis, who was followed by the noble duke, and now he (the Lord Chancellor) felt himself, albeit unwillingly, compelled to trespass for a few moments upon their lordships' time. In the speech of the right rev. prelate there were most offensive allusions, in which he loved to indulge ; and a most offensive introduc tion of the name of the Supreme Being. had most justly excited the indignation and called down the reproof of his noble friend. There was not in Parliament, he be lieved, any other peer who dealt so lavishly in allusions of this description: others there were, too of an opposite de scription, equally idle—more harmless, if not less to be condemned. He gave forth imprecations in a spirit of the most unbridled liberality. ( Hear, and laughter.) The noble earl and the noble duke, and others, were called up. file cloud of error which had been already raised was ren dered thicker and more thick, grosser and more gross. They had been arguing and contending, and supposing, concluding about which they knew nothing, about which nobody could know anything, except his Majesty's mi nisters. The noble earl moved for a copy of the commis sion. He was aware it was not an unusual course to move for a document with the contents of which one was per fectly well acquainted, for the purpose of making such ob servations as you might deem expedient upon the ques tion ; but here the noble earl moved for a paper of the contents of which he was profoundly ignorant, and yet, nothing daunted, he made his speech upon the sub ject. The noble earl was most perspicacious as to the present, most wise as to the past, though he did not ac tually know everything in the category of things past, (Laughter); but as to the future—wise as he was—perspi cacious as he was—he begged to remind him that not even the most perspicacious or the wisestcould divine the future, and in the future was enwrapped all things respecting the details of this commission. (H ear , hear.) Now the facts were, that there was nothing in the commission of all those formidable matters which the noble earl apprehended. It was to be purely a statistical inquiry,—one relating altogether to numbers and distances. Not one matter of opinion, or doctrine, or discipline, or observation, or re .nark, was to be embodied in the report, was to be made )bject of inquiry. If then, the noble lord the Chancellor .if the Exchequer had said that the government would act .in the report of the commissioners, what more had he said than that government would act upon the authentic infor 'nation which was supplied to them by trustworthy an .:.ompetent persons ? What, then, would be the interpre tation of the noble lord's words but this,—that government would feel itself bound—compelled, he might say—as any government, even one under the leading of the noble duke, might feel itself compelled to call upon the legislature to adopt such measures as would appear not alone advisable, Jut necessary, from the results of the inqu ry a:.d the facts :licited thereby. The right rev. prelate had been pleased to make a speech upon this subject for the noble duke, much more concise if not so orthodox an orator as himself. (Hear, and laughter) But for this the noble duke I lid not appear to be properly grateful, for he began by an swering it, contending as he did that there had been already _Tough, and more than enough, of inqui r y with respect to church affairs in Ireland. While introducing this, the right rev. prelate had indulged in a multitude of imprecations, if which his noble friend had accused him. Certainly they were not imprecations after the ordinary fashion • hey were obviously implied, not directly expressed; as, or instance, as though you were to say to a man , " M uc h good may it do you : ' whereas at the moment it was notorious you desired that he might suffer all manner of harm. (Hear, hear, hear.) So it was the re verend prelate said to them, " Take care you are not committing sacrilege ; take care you are not provoking the Almighty vengeance." As to the real facts and cir cumstances respecting the commission, he had only to say hat he and his noble friend (Lord Grey) had entirely dis missed from their consideration all abstract points.' When effects were brought before them, when the state of the Irish church was fully and truly known, when it was no longer a matter of surmise or of speculation respecting the Protestant population e de nb of et ht eh i e r r i e er l l a . ed u n d uutmn a f ye l :o d mool afb t h tstieuohr e bne i t r rnfhe hr s iao p t:m i trtoihit church thev spiritual a snr vv sidet a n g.at ihnst verydes. —when it was no longer a matter of doubt whether the established church was sufficiently provided for—whether there was a surplus or whether there was not a surplus-- Ind if a surplus, what was its amount, then would it be for .hem to consider what steps should be taken, and what p rii r ge t s pu members r ttbo el po . pa t , drs i r o et T ni ‘ n si o.eohshnnteoi presented ade w e l eet o o rnu r ai u I.dvdseevldlnei spiritual dt ii w .roi n o t u u A l af d l rorcmeo noblea great object was to see if they could find in Ireland the me ans of spiritual instruction for the people. That the d%,,vashicha Protestant, estawnz andb,ooo friend parish ofinhislrehlaand in 200/. a year — was inhabitants, not- one of whom yet a considerable sum—some paid for supporting that which the petitioners described as a nonentity. Now who, he asked, would have the audacity to state that if they were to entertain the proposition of providing for the spiritual wants of a people, they should not consider the numbers ? Suppose that there were no Protestants at all in 'lreland, would they still be bound to keep up the establ i i t s h h i p m r e a n a t t .? , If the arguments of noble lords were good for anythin g , they went to that. He, however, mainta ine d t h at it was idle, that it was absurd, to say that th e L egis l ature sad not the right and Parliament the pow er t o des with c lurch property as they did, not unfrequently w pmperty on matters of public policy. de contended that ooble lords laboured under a strange delusion respecting