The Sun. — London, England, 1831-07-19 00:00:00

FACTION UNMASKED. " The will of the people once known, it must be prevalent. It would be dreadful indeed if there was any power in the nation capable of resisting its unanimous desire, or even the desire of any very great and decided majority of the people. The people may be deceived in its choice of an object ; but I can scarcely conceive any choice it can make, to be so very mischievous, as the exist ence of any human force capable of resisting it. to the Buckinghamshire Elcctors, 1780. "—Burke's Letter The factious conduct of the Opposition, on Tues day night, did not in the slightest degree surprise uis. Scruples about means are not to be expected of own who have no scruples about oliycts. It may amaze us to learn that Mr. BliPtl has resorted to le vying contributions on the high road; but knowing that such is his pursuit, it does not amaze us to learn that he fought tooth and nail with the officers of justice. No one that snatches a bone from a dog's jaws reckons on good manners, and the punc , ilious government of the disappointed tooth. A booty is a thing which neither men nor dogs will surrender without a desperate struggle, per fe-c rvut ntfas, for possession. People pay a very undeserved compli ment to the borouglimongers, when they wonder at the extremities to which they carry their factious hostility. It were strange, indeed, if their conduct was better than their cause. The cause is booly. and it is defended as booty is commonly defended, not with more scrupulousness than it \VHS acquired with. It is an affair with the constable. The gen tlemen will not be handcuffed without kicking foully. The power of moving the adjournment of the House, and dividing on it, is one which might be used by any four Members, so as to stop the political machi nery of the country. Two and two, who watched and slept, and moved and seconded lii turns, might prevent the course of the most necessary business, and there would be no constitutional resource but in a dissolution of Parliament, which would send such persons to the judgment of the country, to be visited with its resentment, if factious, or supported, if the ritject justified the obstruction. But in an Unre formed Parliament a dissolution might not allow of the redress, one way or the other, by means of the public judgment. Suppose the Members were Mem bers for Gatton and Sarum; bow could they be re movable for the most wicked and wanton obstruction of public business. What but revolution could cast them out, and free the political machinery from its dead lock ? It would be a case of calculus in the State. This is an additional argument for Reform, illustrated by the recent conduct of the faction ; for without Reform it is clear that four wilful Members, responsible to no constituency, might paralyse the Government of the country, and that the (Ilse would be without remedy. What would he the value of the Constitution, incapable of expelling this evil ; and the Constitution as now vitiated by rot tenness in representation is incapable of disposing of such a mischief. With all its boasted elasticity, it could not fling off the pest of four factious men once established in the Legislative power, by purchase of a couple of rotten boroughs. No matter with what flagrantly mischievous objects and effects, the Mem bers for Gatton and Sarum stopped the public busi ness; by no Constitutional means could they be dis pus'essed, for their right of moving adjournment would always be exercised in bar of any attempt to cast them out of the Legislation : and, as they had no constituencies capable of resenting the public in juries, they would be unaffected by dis,olutions. - - We remarked, in our last number, upon the joyful acclamations that burst from the Opposition on the mere use of the words " buy up !" in Sir James Mackintosh's speech, and the cry of " money, money !” from some Members. Those simple terms acted as the " open Sessanti .!" to the robbers' cave, and unlocked the secret of their hearts. Who can fail to perceive, that if" buying up" had entered into the Reform project, the amount of objection would have been wonderfully reduced. The market-price of a borough has been, we believe, about 40,000/. Now let us suppose, that instead of unconditional disfranchisement, it had been proposed to give compensation of 100,000/. for each borough, and 20,000/. to the sitting Members : in this case what would have become of the Con , titutional apprehensions ? The plan would not have been so bad, though the industry of the country had been crushed to squeeze out the means of ear: ying it into effect. The sordid considerations s; hich really de- termitic the opposition to the Reform Bill will ap pear, notwithstanding all the arts of deceit, and the subtlety of false pretences. The language is to describe the Btll as a measure of confiscation, or spoliation, and to represent electors as deprived of a property which they have not forfeited by any mis conduct. The very fact, however, of the con‘er sion of the franchise to a property works its for feiture. Wherever the franchise :s used as a trust for the good of society, the withdrawal of it for a better arrangement for that object, will not be felt as a hardship : wherever, on the other hand, it is turned to profit, it is vitiated, and should be cut away, according to the acknowledgment of all parties. Mr. Connolly, however, plainly says, that " the elective franchise is as valuable to any imam as any property he can passes., and no thing can justify its spoliation;" and Mr. Att wood asks—" \Vas it ever before proposed to the Commons of England to take away the eights, not as in the present Bill, of the third of the electoral body, but €%en of a single set of electors, except after compensalion, or as the punishment of convicted crime ?" Compeusstion compensation for what ? How is the claim to be stated without infamizing the claimant ? The right of tde elector is vested in him in right of society; extended to bins, not as a personal privilege, but fer the benefit of society, and is of course subject to any arrangement for the better furtherance of the object. The privilege of voting at elections would be considered like the duty of serving on Juries, had not the perception of its proper nature been coto founded by abuse. Before corruption made the franchise a propel ty, it was deemed onerous. Elec tors have precisely as much cam to compensation as unpaid Magistrates would have were our system of rural justice reformed : the answer would be, " Show us how ssou made your gains, and we will show how you deserve the pillory. It is clear that the clamour of " spoliation," " confiscation," &c., all implies abuse of trust, and illicit profit. But the persons who hold this language will, in the very next breath, coolly assert that, " they are ready to visit with disfranchisement any electors whose ye. nality is proved. God forbid that they should be enemies of Reform—thry are advocates for Reform, and oily enemies of injustice—they would dis franchise for bribery, arid merely watt the bribery to be proved before they disfranchise." They profess their readiness to punish bribery, with out which there cannot be nomination ; and they contend, at the same time, that nomination is east n tial to the safety of the Constitution ! What a maze of contradiction ! They would punish the means of an effect they pronounce indispensable to the safety of the State. They would punish voters tainted with bribery; and they would give compensation to voters deprived of the franchise which can only be made profitable by bribery. Further, so nice are these men in justice, they must have proof of every thing—proof that there is proof. To disfranchise Appleby without trial at bar, and counsel in defence, is pronounced horrible. In the time of Lord Castle reagh, of blessed memory, certain districts in Eng land were declared disturbed, and subjected to laws of particular severity : where were the scruples of these Tory gentlemen when they suffered those places to be so affected without receiving evidence in their behalf at bar ? Why were not Lancashire and Durham heard by counsel ? Why were the Lud dites judged without defence ? Why did legislation proceed upon representations of their offences, which they had no opportunity of rebutting ? And to im pose severe laws is surely more harsh than to with draw privileges. When the Habeas Corpus was suspended, why was not the whole country heard by counsel at bar ? Why was society supposed to be extensively affected with sedition, and its most valued rights withdrawn, without defence and proof of the alleged facts ? A new police was lately established. Why did not a Mr. Sadler, or Sir Robert Inglis rise, and say, " Prove there are thieves, before you chart! the town with this ex pensive improvement. I",u say -pockets are Pickcd in the Strand, houses broken open in the Regent's Park, people knocked on the head with blud geons, and robbed in broad daylight. I have no knowledge of the truth of these stories. I will not brlieve such things are done in . a city wh• re there are churches, and in a country blessed with an established church. Let us examine the folks of the Alpha Cottages touching burglary and bludgeons; and call the Strand to answer before us by counsel as to pickpockets. Soames and Ikey Solomons are talked of; but God forbid we should legislate with reference to imputations on them unproved—let 'hem be heard by counsel at the bar. Before we establish a police, let it be proved that there are . thieves." The answer would be, Legisla-ion must proceed upon representation of facts of sufficient ge neral notoriety ; and legal evidence is not necessary to show that Sarum is rotten, awl Soames roguish, —that Appleby is corruptible, and Ikey Solomons not particular as to ownership in his purchases of property. There is, indeed, one cause for which a nation might justly demand to be heard by its ad vocates at the bar of the Commons, and that is to defend itself against unauthorised taxation; but its vo:ce on this subject is so potent, and has been so loudly and distinctly expresed, as to have pene trated the walls of Parliament, and commanded re dress. The judgment of the country in its own cause has been bad, and it will be obeyed. Faction can only make itself more hated by delaying what it cannot avert.—Eraniiricy. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 16. The Assessed Taxes Composition Bill, the Writer to the Signets Widows' Funds Bill, and several Private Bills, were brought up from the Commons and read a first time. Lord lIAREWOOD presented a petition from certain persons in and about Halifax, in Yorkshire, praying for the extension of the Poor Liws to Ireland ; also a petition from mill-owners and corn dealers in and about the same place, praying for protection against the importation of foreign meal and flour. The Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND presented a peti tion from certain Roman Catholics of the c :unty of Gal way, praying for an extension of the e'ective franchise to the Catholics. Lord RADNOR presented a petition to the same effect from Galway; also a petition from Hamerton, praying ful an alteration in the Game Laws ; also a petition from Macclesfield, in favour of the Reform Bill. The Duke of NORFOLK presented a petition from Cork, praying for the further extension of the Education Grants to the Catholics. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a petition from a certain place in Inland in favour of the Reform Bill, and also a petition from Drogheda against the Re peal of the Union. The Marquis of SALISBURY presented a petition from the Society for the Reduction of the Poor Rates, praying for the extension of the Poor Laws to Ireland. He asked his M ijesty's Ministers whether they meant to bring in any Bill this session for the better employment of the poor in Ireland ? The Duke of RICHMOND answered (as we understood him), that there was such a Bill in preparation. All these Bills were laid en the table. TITHES COMPOSITION BILL. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY moved the second reading of the Tithes Composition Bill ; and the Order of the Day being read, his Grace proceeded to explain the nature and object of the Bill, the principles on which it was founded, the means, or machinery, by which it was to b.! carried into execution ; but in the first place he begged for the indulgence of their Lordships, while he stated the reasons which had induced him to undertake the preparation of the Bill in question. He assured their Lordships that in doing so he had not been actu ited by any predilection for the task, for of all the official duties to which it was incumbent on him to attend, the least agreeable were those which pertained to the temporal con. cerns of the clergy of the church ; and he also assured their Lordships, that he had not been urged to undertake this duty by any opinion of his own particular compe tency or superior knowledge of the subject. He brought to the execution of this duty only that understanding of the subject which might be possessed by any man of common sense, whose attention had bean frequently called to it, and who hail occasion to consider it, along with many sur veyors of tithes, and whose business it was to be some what conversant with the matter. lie had had ample communications on the subject with professional persons and others ; with many whose sentiments were in favour of the plan, and also with many who hail considerable oh jectioas to it ; and he believed that he had in consequence of those communications been put in possession of almost all the objections which could be devised by human inge nuity to the particular measure now before their Lord ships. But lie had been urged to undertake this duty by the wishes of the body of the Bishops, who were desirous that an arrangement of this nature should be undertaken by him, from an opinion that if it should be brought for ward by him with the sanction of the bench of Bishops, it would be the more likely to be received with satisfaction, both by the great body of the clergy, and also by the payers of tithes; and the subject was certainly of great import ance, as it involved a very great share of the property of the church. Being applied to in this manner, he did not think he would be justified in declining the task. Many concurred with him in the general view which he had taken of the subject, and be hoped that it would prove generally satisfactory. As to the delay which had taken place in bringing it forward, that had been owing to va rious unavoidable circumstances, and not to any dilatori ness on his part. The Bill differed in several respects from that which which was brought forward in 1930, al though the general object was the same. The great object was, to remove the objections which he heard had been made to the payment of tithes either in kind, or by composition. To the payment of tithes in kind it had been objected, that this mode of payment was extremely injurious to agriculture, and to a great extent prevented the investment of capital in the employment of agricul tural industry ; and to the payments by composition it had been objected that these compositions were variable, uncertain, and of short duration ; and it was one great object of the Bill to remove these objections, and an other great object was to put an end to those contests about the payment of tithes, which often interrupted the amicable feelings and good understanding which, for the interests of religion and morality, ought tr prevail be tween the clergy and their congregations. Indeed, the state of the law, as it now stood, encouraged the toiler. tion of the tithes in kind, for, when so collected, the in cumbent had inunediate possession of his whole pro. petty, and hail the power to dispose of it in such man ner, and at such times, as best suited him. But when the payment was by composition, the incumbent had to wait for the previous payment of the poor rates by the tithe-payer, and he had also to wait until the landlord was paid, and the consequence was, that be fore he could get what was due to hint, the whole property of the tithe-payer was swept away by tie landlord or by creditors. Under these disadvantages it had been found very difficult to enter into a satisfactory composition ; but he hoped that the provisions of the Bill would have the eff,ct of obviating these disadvantages, and of proving sa tisfactory both to the clergyman and the farmer. The composition would be advantageous to the farmer on ac count of its long duration and its unvariableness ; and cer tainly it would be advantageous to the clergyman, as the Bill gave him a power of distress in order to recover what was due to him, and thus put him on an equality with the landlord, so that he would have the means of prevent ing any violation of the agreement between himself and the tithe-payer. This was intended to be the effect of the measure; and it now remained to be seen how far the pro visions of this Bill were calculated to produce this effect. The Bill provided both for the general compositions of whole parishes, and also particular compositions. The Bill provided that whenever the Rector, Vicar, or other incum bent of any ecclesiastical living, and the owners, for the time being, of not less than two-thirds of the value of the farm, lands, and tenements subject to tithes payable to the said Rector, Vicar, or other incumbent in right of his living, shall desire a composition of the said tithe', it shall be lawful, under certain regulations, and with the approbation of certain parties mentioned in the Bill, to enter into such a composition for a term not exceeding 21 years, and this composition would be binding on the sue censors of the incumbents entering upon these compositions. He could have very much wished that these compositions would have been effected without compulsion on any indivi dual or set of men. But as an agreement of this kind might be defeated by the refusal of a small party, or even of an individual to concur in it, he had been unable to find any better when eiptend,oie-nthtitrhdrin the tot make of the the agreement of binding uu all sub jectamo amount the t 6 payme nt oftithes money tob e c o p n a c i u d r r b e y d the tithe-payers, to ay e t r h s e , that might - be settled among the owners and occupiers of land subject to the payment of the tithes, cr it might be adjusted by Commissioners to be appointed .for that pur pose. These Commissioners might be appointed by the parishioners, and it would be their ditty to appoint the particular sums to be paid by each of the tithe•payeis, and esenerally to act so as to carry the provisions of the effectually into execution, and they would have to make an award on the subject, which would have the force of an instrument binding on all parties. Suppose the payments were to be made upon the plan or criterion of corn rents, then these payments might be adjusted every seven years; and if the compositions were agreed to be paid by fixed money payments, then these might be adjusted every fourteen years. These were the regulations under which it was proposed that the general payments should be made. But in the next place there was a clause in the ' Hi lenabling individuals to enter into compositions for the tithes of their own lands ; and he understood that this was a clause which was particularly acceptable to many owners and occupiers of land ; and for that reason he thought it would be advisable that the provisions of the clause should be extended. By this means these individuals might mak e compositions for themselves for short periods without any necessity far having recourse to the provisions of the Act. As to the recovery of the: money payable in lieu of tithes, the incumbent was to have the ordinary remedy as it tx isted at present ; and also the further power of recovery by distress on the tithe-money being in arrear for one year ; this latter power to he analogous to that which was possessed by the landlords under the statute of the 14th of Anne ; and it was but fair that it should not be allowed that the incumbent should be anticipated by the landlord in the recovery of that which was his own. This was the principle of the Bill, and a general view of the machinery by which it was to be carried into execution ; which ma chinery appeared to him to be on the whole as plain and simple as could reasonably be expected, considering the difficulty of the subject, although that machinery had been objected to. There were some clauses which might appear rather formidable to those who had not thoroughly examined the subject ; but these were such as would be but seldom resorted to in practice, and were in serted only to give an effectual remedy to the incumbent in case be should be under the necessity of having recours e to it. He believed that the method of proceeding pointed out by the Bill would be as free from trouble and expense as any that could be devised. lie might be asked, why it was that he had not adopted the plan of a perpetual commutation of tithes, instead of resorting to temporary compositions ? His answer woe, that the measure of per petual commutation would be attended with extreme diffi culty ; and that the measure of temporary compositions was much more expedient and much more easy of execu tion in consistency with a due regard to the interests of all parties. It would be very hard on the church incum bents that their allowance should be perpetually fixed, when the real value of the tithe might be so different at different periods. It ought to be considered that it was extremely variable in respect of the value of the lands liable to the payment of tithe, and also extremely variable as to the persons to whom it was to be paid. Tithes were payable to Rectors and Vicars in different proportions and out of different subjects ; and the amount of the great and small tithes was constantly liable to change; and there was at times a great difference in the expense of collecting them. Corn lands might be turned into garden lands, and garden lands might be turned into corn lands, and by this means a Rector had a great advantage over the Vicar at one time, mid at an other time the Vicar might have a great advantage over the Rector. In this manner great changes were constantly taking place in the interests of different incum bents, and it was hardly possible to make these things the subject of fixed and perpetual commutation. Add to this that a great difficulty would arise from the dif ferent manner in which tithes were estimated in dif ferent parts of the country ; and it was observable that in those places where the estimate was least, the cla mours against the tithes were the greatest. But it might he said that the commutation might be effected by the exchange of tithe for land, or by the sale of lands for the payment of tithes. But this, too, would be attended with great difficulty. There was a great dif ference in the value of land from the different modes of cultivation and management, for the land might be in a at ate of high improvement, or it might he almost to the last degree impoverished. An incumbent might have a considerable glebe, and let it out to a tenant, but it was his opinion that where an incumbent depended on the rent or income to be derived from land cultivated for himself, be could not be in a worse situation, for an incumbent was almost the most incompetent of all men to engage with advantage in agricultural speculations. Then, suppose that the tithe were valued and sold, and that the amount were invested in the public funds, the matter would not be in a better situation. The public funds were constantly affected by variations in commerce, and by the convulsions that occasionally tools place in the country, and it might happen that the income of the clergyman mi g ht be reduced • at times almost to nothing. But even if it should be found practicable and expedient to resort at last to a commuta tion, it would still be desirable that, in the first instance, the amount of the temporary compositions for the tithes should he settled by the agreements ; and besides, if these compositions should be properly acted upon, they would have the effect of a perpetual commutation. Then, he mght be asked, why he had confined his measure to the tithes p iyable to the clerical incumbents, and did not includ e in it the tithes payable to lay impropriators ? Hi s answer was, that he thought it highly desirable that the present measure, which lie had been called upon li to arrange, should be confined to the clergy, and that the law impropriators should not be included. Ile thought it much better that the lay impropriatois should be left to arrange matters for themselves. In fine, he thought it highly desirable that this measure, if approved of by Parliament, should pass into a law as soon as p ea _ slide, since great expectations had been excited in the pub. lie mind on the subject, and it was proper the community should be apprised, with the least possible delay, of what it was the Bill really did. Great expectations were enter tained in the country; and if the Bill had been calculated to answer all their expectations, they' would soon find that they would be in some measure disappointed. It happened in many instances that those who were called upon to pay the tithes entertained a notion that if the tithes payable to the clergy were abolished they would he relieved to the amount of their payments. It was scarcely necessary to obsesve, that in this expectation they would be disappointed, for if the tithes were not paid to the clergy, the amount would be paid in rent to the I mdlords. He was anxious, therefore, that a speedy arrangement should take place, and the plan proposed by this Bill he considered the fairest and most proper that could at present be devised. H e hoped the owners of land would facilitate the execution of it, as without their existence and co-operation nothing could be done. The measure was the best that, after ma ture consideration, and with the aid of many of those who were the most competent to judge, he could devise. The Session was, indeed, far advanced, and several per sons whose opinions it was highly desirable they should have, were absent on their duties on the circuits, or were prevented from attending by other reasons. It would have been very desirable that such persons should be present, as several alterations had been made, so as to make the Bill somewhat different in its provisions from the Bill of 1830. But be hoped no unnecessary delay would take place in the progress of the Bill, as, for the reasons he had already stated, it was highly desirable the measure should be passed into a law as speedily as possible. The LORD CHANCELLOR.—IIe was induced to in trude himself thus early on their Lordships' attention, from the anxiety which he felt that, considering the situation which he held, his opinion of this measure should he known as speedily as possible. He had given the utmost attention to the plan of the Most Rev. Prelate, as it was his duty to do, and he had only to say that he felt great satisfaction at the result of the Most Rev. Prelates judicious labours. Great thanks were due to the Most Rev. Prelate, both from the church, and their Lordships, g a i t t i u m d e e % t i e> , a t s h i d s u t o o s t h i i mt m o a r : a l i n e t ‘, , subject pec ; u a n r d l y s:i p t ai he i more and the country, for having devoted so mu c h o f hi s vain e to arrange a measure of this kind, from his great experience and knowledge of the matters with which he hail to deal. With respect to the subject itself, it appeared to him, that those who might be disposed to discuss this subject, e ither in or out of the House, might be reduced totwo classes: —First, those who thought that the measure did not go far enough, in the whole, for the due execution of its owl' purpose ; secondly, those who thought that the object could be better accomplished by another course. With regard to the fist class, it was not to be supposed that they would make any sweeping opposition to the Bill. As the law now stood, although a liege proportion of the oc cupiers of the titheable lands in a parish should be willing to enter into a composition with the incumbent, and ' although the incumbent should be willing to accept of the composition, and although the owners of the lands, and the Bishop, and the patron of the living should ap prove of it ; and however reasonable in themselves the terms of the composition might be, still it would be available only for those who entered into it, and the other payers of tithes in the parish could not be brought into it unless they chose ; and even an individual m ight prevent the cemposition from applying to the whole pa rish. Any individual might thus prevent a general com position from being entered into; for, however reasonable the composition might be in itself, the "law required con sent of all before it could be established as a general paro chial composition. This evil was remedied by the Bill 0! the most Rev. Prelate, which adopted a rule analagous to one which prevailed in the Sister Kingdom, by which the consent of tyro-thirds was made binding on the whole. ' Another defect in compositions made under the law as it at present stood way, that however reasonable and proper !he composition might be in itself, and however generally it might be adopted, and however satisfactory it might be to the incumbent who had accepted it, still it was avail able only during the life-time of that incumbent. This was the case, although the c omposition should have been approved by 1 9-20ths of those who were concerned ; and not only by 1 9-20ths but by the whole 20; for although all should have concurred, the composition was at an end at the death of the incumbent. This defect also was re medied by the Bill of the Most Rev. Prelate. He, for one, thought that in all eases where there Isere so many diffi culties to be encountered, and where there were so many conflicting interests to be reconciled, a cautious mode of proceeding was the most proper to he adopted when you came to apply the remedy. There was certainly consider able difficulty in providing the proper remedy on the sub ject to which this Bill referred, and this he himself had experienced when he applied his mind to the subject four teen years ago, and had introduced a measure relating to it in the other House. For his own part, he would not say that he saw his way so clearly before him as to go consi derably further at present than this Bill had gone ; and he thought it most expedient that a Noble Baron (Lord D :ere), with whom he concurred on so many subjects, should with draw his Bill for the present, until they could ascertain, by experience, bow the measure of the Most Nob , e Prelate would work, and how far it was likely to answer the im portant purpose which they all had in view. The mea sure of the Most Noble Prelate went to establish composi tions of a temporary nature ; while the Bill of his Noble Friend had or its object a permanent and perpe , ual com mutation of tithes; and he had so much deference for the plan of the Most Noble Prelate, that. he felt disposed to acquiesce in it for the present, in order that if they should find it proper to come to the consideration of his Noble , Friend's plan at a future period, they might do so with the warning of experience with which the Operation of this Bill would supply them. He preferred the plan of his Right Rev- Fiend, because it was capable of expansion. It might be improved in its provisions, or he itsttrafred upon that proposed be the Noble Lord (Deere) if found to operate beneficially ; whereas, on the contrary, if it were not proved by experience to be good, it might be stopped. In this respect it was greaely preferable to the other Bill. Ile had another objection to the plan of the Noble Lord. He did not consider it expedient to leave it entirely to two thirds of the proprietors of the land to determine that a composition should be effected without the consent of the patron, the incumbent, and the ordinary. Ag tin, the adjustment was to be made by two Commissioners— one appointed by the parishioners, and the other by the incumbent. If these Commissioners could not agree, they were to choose an umpire. Now, he con sidered the arrangement faulty in this respect. It required only that the Commissioners against the tithe-payers should be appointed by the incumbent. He thought that teas an arrangement which might be attended with many difficulties. For, to take a case of negligence in the parson, or of imprudence, or of signal disregard of worldly concerns, in such a case, the Corm:di-donee ap pointed by the incumbent, might agree to an arrangement contrary to the interests of the church. But that was net the worst case. If the parson were under the influence of a patron, as the law of the title always supposed him to be, might not a case arise in which the parson, acting under the influence of the patron, should appoint a commisaien by whom the interests of the church would be sacrificed to those of the patron? Or, suppose the incumbent to be on old man, with one foot in the grave—might not the patron, owning, perhaps two thirds of the tithes, in such a case induce the parson to appoint a valuator indifferent or hostile to the interests of the church by giving him a life annuity greatly exceeding his proportion of the tithes ? He objected also to that provision of the Bill by which the composition was made compul-ors, leaving no option to the patron, the incumbent, or the ordinary. He thought it his duty to explain himself to their Lordships fully on this Act, as it proposed to make a great change in the rights and property of the Established Church. A change of that nature must be proceeded in with very great can tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would not say that such a change might not he necessary. It might be necessary that something should be done for the relief of the land owners and the agriculturists, on whose produce tithes cettainly operate injuriously as a tax. It might be neces sary that some greater alteration should take place in the tithe system than even the Noble Lord's Bill proposed to make. A larger measure might, perhaps, be called for. He was convinced that if some measure could be enacted which should establish a universal and uniform system for the payment of the clergy, and preclude all the inconveniences arising from the present mode, such a measure would be for the benefit of the church and the clergy, as well as of those committed to their care. For he (lid not think that the wit of man could have devised an arrangement more calculated than the present system of tithes to alienate the parishioners from their pastors, and to produce that disunion and dis content, to preclude the possibility of which ought to be the end of all ecclesiastical institutions. But there was great difficulty in finding a remedy for those inconve nienciea, and providing at the same time for the main tenance of the church, and to keep up the condition of the clergy to time level at which it should be maintained to secure for them the respect of man. Such an arrange ment ought to provide for the increase of the incomes of the clergy in the sonic proportion as the incomes of the lest of the community increased—(Hear) —and for the payment of their incomes in such a way that they should be given ungrudgingly.—( Hear.) He did not think that the mode in which they were at present paid was of that nature ; but be had this advantage over the plan of the Noble Lord, that no improvement could take place in the incomes of the parishioners, a ithout producing a corresponding increase in the incomes of the church. Under the existing laws, he must look upon the clergyman and the landowner as joint proprie tors in the farm, nine-tenths being the property of the landlord, and the remaining one-tenth as abso lutely the property of the parson. The landlord could no more turn round upon the clergyman and deny his right to the one-tenth, than could the latter turn upon the landowner and deny his right to the nine tenths.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was precisely the same case as if a field were divided into ten part., of which nine were allotted to one of two proprietor', and the tenth were set apart for the other. The owner of the nine-tenths had no right to seize upon the remaining tenth, the property of his neighbour. The clergyman anti the landlord might be looked upon as co-partners, of whom the latter was the acting, and the former the sleeping partner.—(Hear, hear.) He meant to call the clergyman a sleeping part ner, only as to agricultural labour. He did not work t u h p e or c a o t m ha m • land, but ~‘v h hich e inlalrmetuurre return allotted elsewhere liim for a the good plop of proportion of the produce of the soil.—(Hear, bear.) It would therefore be a great violation of property, that one of thole co-partners—the clergyman or the landlord—should oust the oth e r from his possession, without asking his consent. Wh a t would be the consequence, if such a law were enacted respecting other co-partnerships ?—partners in commer cial property—if one should be allowed to say to the other, " You must go out. You must consent to take stock now, whether you like to do so or not ; and, if it he valued at ten thousand pounds yeti must take one thou sand, and we shall teke the remaining nine. You shall ' have the one thousand for yourself, your heirs, and assigns, for ever : and then should the •alue of the property be in creased, you shall be shut out for ever from all participa tion in that increase, the advantage of which shall be alto gether ours."—(Hear.) But the measure proposed by the Right Rev. Prelate was not liable to the same objections in its whole exten's It contemplated re-adjustments, re gulating the composition according to the variations in the price of agricultural produce. In that way the evil to which he pointed would be somewhat miti gated, if it could not be entirely done away with. But still he did not see how it was to be provided that the income of the clergyman should be increased in proportion to the increasing value of the property of his parishioners. The Bill only provided against the inconvenience which might arise from the fluctuations in the value of money. It was necessary that this subject should he considered and exa mined. There were various and complicated interests connected with it. Although he saw defects in the plan of the Right Rev. Prelate, he was unable at present to s uggest a remedy. He was sensible that the mode in which the clergy now received their incomes was open to much objection. As a friend to the agriculture of this country, as a friend to the Established Church, to its welfare, permanence, and peace, and to the important in see terests committed to its care—for all which it was neces sary t' at a good understanding should subsist between laity effected c d t e e e d p 1 d i e w p r l f o e r c e t d .e consonance ance wished wi with h o a nd ecclesiastics—he should be glad to see his way through t he difficulties with which the subject was embarras-ed, prin ciples of justice, having due regard to the rights of the c hurch, and carefully consulting the interests of all par sichbi lie eigras dr . rbieitel:oydi os ( beiwidlys It might after fci r , tcn , uhet rti ghyuh‘eavati much atrcos.ho)antevhcoeeenSs deliberationcie c eocct h nutt eer arri from e n arrangementdo:t,aioatnt with their That consummation so devoutly to be wished, a ra n n d gel l e i n c t h part a'a—ili ne t nsxc f; h l h n(( a ls a ai t t t ti47eno t n :i measure of his Noble Friend was like that great measure of commutation which was effected in the • reign of the ar ruttei Scotland,ue Charles the First. But it was to he remembered, the circumstances of the times favoured that arrangemete of the tithes in Scotland. It was much more easy the. to effect such a commutation in Scotland than it wool. he to bring about a similar measure in England. Every one acquainted with the history of Scotland, must kno‘: that the clergy were never other than stipendiary in than country since the Reformation, whereas in England they never were stipendiary.—(hear, hear.) The laws of thi, country hold any contract between the.incumhent and tit , patron for the reservation of any portion of the tithes t. the benefit of the latter to be a misdemeanour, and punito able by a penalty. But so fir seas that from being case in Scotland, that the I, w expressly recognized corn pacts between the patron and the incumbent for the pat. titian of the tithes ; and over all Scotland every one par son was stipendiary at the time when the commutation w effected. Now in such cases , w h ere th e cl ergy were sti taen o d n i r t y i d h e e could r the same s''enhi sn4 easier than such it compo sition, would be varied an. as well secured as it was before. The clergyman was cer tainly a loser, in so far as his income was fixed at flit) pounds or five pounds, and remained unchanged, when value of money had been so much altered since tlia period. But he would have received no more ha l th. Act of Charles never existed. In some cases the parson received part of the composition in grain and part in mo ney, and in that respect the arrangement of !hat day re sernble I the measure of his Right Rev. Friend. 11 trusted that he had said enough to show their Lordship that the rights of the tithe•owner to that species of pro perty was as legal and as complete as that of the land owner to his estate.—(Hear, hear.) The misfortune we• that tire laws had fixed upon a mode of collecting tt, tithe-owner's income which was attended with many an, serious inconveniences. By mutoal agreement', however, between the p attics concerned, an arrangement might, a, he had said, be come to, whereby those evils should be re moved, neither party standing too much upon their own claims, or denying pertinaciously the el rims of the other, The Earl of ELDON did not intend to oppose this measure, but to look at its provisions calmly, temperately, and deliberately. It was a difficult thing to attempt t,, a'ter the property of the church in tithes. He would nor say that it was not lit to make that alteration. Bit It thought it his duty to state to their Lordships, that although he should vote for the second reading of those Bills, y. t it was not possible for him to say what vote le might feel obliged to give after it had gone through th. Committee. The recital of the two Bills differed mucl from each other. One preamble set forth that it was desirable that the tithe compositions should be temporary The other asserted that it was a great inconvenience t have temporary arrangements of that kind, and that all compositions should be permanent. Now both Bills could not he right. A great deal had been said of the right of the clergy to their tithes. But the same things might be predicted as well respecting the rights of the I ry impropria tors to their tithes.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was seme.what dangerous to make distinctions between the rights to different kinds of property. He did not say that it might not be necessary to make laws which should alter the rights of property ; but he thought all such inter ference shou'd be attempted very cautiously. IL: would, therefore, beg of their Lordships to look well to these Bills. and consider where those measures were to stop.—(Hear, hear.) He would take the liberty to say, that if the Bibs were to come out of the Committee in the same state io which they went into it, then it would he impossible for their Lordships to give their assent to them. There was no law so little understood as the law relating to tithes in this country; and he thought he should be able to show in the Committee, that there was not one clause in those Bills that must not undergo considerable alteration before their Lordships could pass it. According to the present tithe laws of this country, the Bills could not, without being tnuch altered, effect the purposes for which the) were intended. He should give his utmost exertion to make the 811, if it must be passed, such as could become a law. The Bishop of LONDON had heard with great satisfac tion the speech of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack. That Noble Lord had placed on its proper basis the property of the church, when he stated that which it was their duty to press upon the attention of the public—namely, that the property of the church is held by the same tenure:as all the other property in the king dom, and that the clergy have as good a right to their possessions and incomes as any landed proprietor has to his estates.—(Hear.) If that property were taken from the clergy, into whose hands would it go? Certain!y not to the labouring classes of the people, but to the landed proprietors.—(Hear.) If, then, the clergy were to he maintained, on whom would the burthen fall ? On that part of the people who now contribute nothing to that purpose. For it could scarcely be disputed, that, with the exception of the Easter dues and some customary fees, the labouring classes contributed nothing to the support of the clergy, but the whole burthen was borne by the landed proprietors. The Noble and Learned Lord would excuse him for remarking up .n one expression which had fallen from the Noble Lord, when he was proving the indefeasi ble tight of the clergy to the one• tenth part of all the pro duce of the land in the kingdom. The Noble Lord then compared the clergy to the sleeping partner in a trading concern.—(Hear.) He was aware that the Noble Lord did immediately explain the sense in which he used the expression. But still he (the Bishop of London) did riot wish the expression to go forth without comment ; becau‘e everything which fell from the Noble Lord was much and justly attended to by the public—(Hear, hear)—and that expression might be taken hold of, and the meaning of the Noble Lord misrepresented. H t did not mean to find fault with the expression as used by the Noble Lord, who had himself at once explained that he did not use the words in the sense to which he (the Bishop of London) was then objecting.—(Hear, hear.) But they had been often used before in au invidiSats sense. —(Heer, hear.) He not only fully agreed in the principle laid down by the Noble and Learned Lord, that the clergy held their property in tithes by as good and legal a right as any other property in the kingdom was held by ; but he would add that no property in the kilte d= was expended more beneficially to the country. The greatest part of it was expended on the spot where it was collected, and much of it was employed in works of charity and benevolence. He thought it was important to the welfare of the country and to the permanence of our in stitutions that the rights of the clergy should be maintained, and that everything should he done to secure their resi dence in the places committed to their charge. As to the subject of commutation or comp-nsation, nothing could be added to what had been said by the Noble Lord. He (the Bishop of London) was friendly to the measure of his most Rev. Friend. But he wished a clause to lie added which should allow the commutation of tithe for land. He could say from his experience, that where the incumbent, ti e patron, the tithe payer, and the ordinary agreed to such an agreement, it was effected to the satisfaction and the permanent advantage of all parties. lie did not see why a clause could not be inserted in the Bill, empowering par ties to effect such an arrangement in all cases. Ile wished to say one word as to what had fallen from the Noble Lord, respecting the inconvenience of that mode of paying the clergy, which had existed in this country for more than nine hundred years. Since 1610, acd not before that time, much inconvenience had certainly arisen from it. Wherever political' discontent prevailed, or grievances were complained of, for the last 150 years a clamour was raised against tithes ; and all the evils were attributed to the Established Church, and to that system which had given to this country the most learned and respectable body of clergymen that had ever flourished in any nation. —(Hear.) He attributed much of the evils that were c o mplained of to the compli ca t e d mac hi nery of the tithe laws, on m account of which he would not say th at t h e sys te was not justly unpopul ar . He was d es i rous o f see i ng some measure adopt e d, b y w hi ch the people h i should ea r) e enabled to know what p ar t o f t h e land was titheable, and what was to be exempte d front tithe—(ldeas, and not be compelled to go front one court of justice, which decided that such land was not titheable, to another which would decide that it was so. He wondered that such a state of the law had been so long allowe , l to con tinue in this country. He was more friendly to the pay ment of tithes in kind than to any other mode. The LORD CHANCELLOR explained as to the phrase " sleeping partner," which had fallen from him : be hid not intended to use it invidiously, but merely to explain that the clergyman did not take any part in ploughing, sowing, or reaping the land ; nevertheless, the law re• cognised the dutica he discharged, and for their disch age gave him a share in the profits of the land. The Bishop of LONDON hoped that the expiate aion had been delivered in such a tone, that it would go Mal, to the country. The Bill was then read a second time, and the Com mittee fixed for I hursday next. PRINCE LEOPOLD'S ANNUITY. Earl GREY referred to a question that had been put to him on a former day, regarding the disposition of the in come of Prince Leopold after his a cce p tance of the throne of Belgium : on that occasion he had thought it expe dient not to give an answer to the Noble Marquis. The in come of his Royal Highness was se cur e d b y Act of Par. liatnent, and it was, there fore, en j o y ed under the same sanction which gave a title to ever y other s p ecies of pro perty—the law. Whatever was done, must, of course, be and on the previous day it a pp eared to him ( Earl Gre y ) voluntary and gratuitous on the p art of Prince Leo p old ; t, hat it would have been most improper and indelicate even - o have hinted at the step which was likely to be taken by nis Royal Highness. as it relatmd either to the Govern' nent, or to the Parliament. He (Earl Grey) had, how' iver, previous to the question tieing put in the Hou-e, bad communication with Prince Leopold, and be had thin bought himself precluded from offering any sutzgestionsm Ills Royal Highness, nevertheless, stated what was his in ,ention, in case the event contemplated occurred, and since runt interview Prince Leopold had repeated in a letter what had then passed. It certainly was in the nature of a private miommunication ; but as considerable anxiety had been ex pressed upon the subyct, he (Earl Grey) altar mature con sideration, and with a view to put an end to invidious , tatements, had determined to read it to the House. Ile b-gged to repeat that the letter was merely a re.statcment }1 what Prince Uoi;o1-1 had expressed verbally before the mestion bad been asked by the Noble Marquis (London• delay) ; ard he (E al Grey) could further add, upon his -twit knowledge, that from the bone the acceptance of ti : e krone of R-leium was contemplated, it was the determi nation of his Royal Highness not to draw front this country any part of the income sett'ed upon him.—(Cheers.) As he most authentic, if not the most unobjectionable mode of proceeding, he would read the express words of Prince Leopold, written on the evening of time day when he (Eat' Grey) had had the verbal commun;cation with him : " Marlborough House, July 13. . 4 MY DEAR Loan Gary,—Before I quit the country, I am de sirous to state, in writing, the intentions and views which I had the pleasure of communicating to you verbally this morning on the subject of my British annuity. " As Sovereign of Belgium, it is not my intention to draw from this country any portion of the income which was settled upon Ine by Act of Parliament at the period of my marriage. Your Lord ship is, however, well aware, that up to the very moment of my leaving England, I have maintained my establishmcr, s here upon their accustomed Iboting, and that, consequently, there remain to be fulfilled and discharged pecuniary engagements and out standing debts, to an amount which it is quite impossible for me to state at the present time with precision. As soon, therefore , as I shall have accomplished the payment of these demands, it is my intention to make over, into the hands of trustees, whom I will without loss of time appoint, the whole of the annuity which I receive from this country, in trust for the following iurposcs "I shalt require my trustees to maintain, in a state of com plete habitation and of repair, the house, gardens, and park, at Claremont; an I farther, to pay all the salaries, pensions, and allowances, which I shall deem a proper reward to those persons who have claims upon me, for their faithful services during mY residence in this country. I shall, in addition, require them to continue all those charities and annual donations to charitable institutions, which have been allowed or subscribed to, either by. the Princess Charlotte or by myself, up to the present period. " All these objects having been fulfilled, it is my wish and de sire that the remainder shall be repaid into the British EN. chequer. _ _ . I remain, Inc dear Lord Grey, most faithfully yours. (Signed) " LEOPOLD." (The reading of this letter was followed by repeated sheets from all sides.) It was impossible (Earl Grey added) for Government, Parliament, and the country not to acknowledge the extreme liberality of the views of his Royal Highness.—(Cheers.) Another question had been pot on the form. r day respecting, the regiment of which Prince Leopold was Colonel. Undoubtedly nothing had pass, d between his Royal Highness and himself (Earl Grey) upon that subject ; but he had concluded, from the general spirit of the Prince's conduct, that he would think it unbecoming the Sovereign of another nation to receive pecuniary emolument front this.—(Hear, hear.) Hence he had felt assured that Prince Leopold would relinquish his regiment. Upon this point, he (Earl Grey) had ree ceived a communication front the Commander of the roes, mentioning that Colonel Cust had waited upon Lt r 1 Hill, and had stated, that it was the intention of Prince Leopold, before he set out for Belgium, to resign the Colonelcy Of the sth Dragoon Goer& ; but that, in the hurry of departure, his Royal Highness had omitted the fiental announcement of his wishes. Colonel Cust, how.- vet-, did not hesitate to state that such, certainly, had been his Royal Ilighnesi's intention ; and he felt himself author'zeil to make a communicalion to that effect t° Lord Hill, in ord e r th a t a report m i g h t b e ma d e to his Majesty. Colonel Cust bad added, that Baron Stock' mar would fully confirm what he had mentioned ; and et° rehrence to the Baron, by Lord Hill, such undoubtedlY appeared to be the fact. In justice to his Royal Highness he (Ertl Grey) had been called upon to make this state' ment ; and he had nothing to add, but his confidence that the motives of Prince Leopold would he duly appreciated , and that his conduct would give the highest satisfaction"' Parliament and to the country. (]Much cheering.) The Duke of WELLINGTON expressed his gratified" tion at this arrangement, not at all doubting the full righ t of the Prince to retain his property had he thought proper to do so. On the same principle he might also have c°°: tinned at the head of his regiment. Having examine d the subject cn a former occasion of a similar charactert he had found that Isis Royal Highness held his property hY, the same tenure as that by which all their Lordships bed° their property—the law of the land. The charges upon _ it rendered it absolut e ly i m p oss ibl e f er hi s R o yal ni g hness entirely to resign it. He congratulated the House that Prince Leopold had made this arrangement, nut becau se he pi.ssessed that feeling repeatedly stated by the public Press, but bee mse he rejoiced to find that his Royal High" ness, called to the Government of another country, W ag anxious to ,how th a t lie was entirely independent of Eng' land.—(Cheers.) That was the ground on which he cd°: gratulated the country, and not for the sake of any truck, ling notion. I COMMUTATION OF TITHES. Lord DACRE moved the second reading of his Cow m station of Tithes' Bill, and in a low tone of voice, I t went over its principal provisions. He agreed that the right to tithes was as fr II and complete as the right to ad other species of property, and professed his readiness tO adopt the suggestions of time Noble Lord on the Woolsaci° No man was less inclined than himself to injure time int e rests of the church, and the 'feet of his Bill would be t‘' give it greater security. It would also tend to produce good understandiag and harmony between the pastor 3 °' his dock. Lord WYNFORD su pp or t e d compos i t i on as op pose d to commutation, and contended that the tithe-owner se • tithe-p iyer ought to be placed upon an equal footing' Such would not he the effect of the Bill of the Not Lord, and therefore he resisted its further progress. ,- also praised in animated terms the liberality of Engl . i°' landlords to their tenants, and expressed Lis convictOef that they would act towards the clergy on the subject ° tithes in the same spirit. By this Bill the commutati°A proposed wit one-fifth of time rent for arable land, on e ' eighth for past ure , an d one - tent h for wood-land. 111 '4 was not a commutati on o f ti t h es , b ut a d estruct i o n " them altogether ; it was an attack on the property of 't church, whi c h, l ie h ear d w i th great pleasure, was te consider e d sacred. In a commuta ti o n, sides oug ht t o be placed upon an equal footing ; they were n ot o" place I here. Of the two parties who were to arbitra te upon this commutation, one might be a Di s senter, th e other tnigi the a Quaker. The religious scruples of th e latter m a d e hi m r e fu se t o recogn i ze t i t h es at a ll, a nd Ye t he might be appointed a Commissioner under this 10 1 ; and if the two Commissioners should disagree, the umPir e ; instead of being appointed by a Justice of the Peace, e d by the Lord Lieutenant of a county, was to be elected I ' 7 the parishioners at large. These objections went to the principle of the Bill, and were not mere details that cot% be amended in Committee. Feeling as he did upon subject, lie felt hound to mov e th a t t hi s Bill b e read '" second time this day six months. The Earl of CARNARVON said that this 13111 r ° ,.; posed a measure to which, for many reasons, he felt !e ll strongest objections. In the first place, this commuta n : r could not be made a commutation of land for tithes ; J ce the great objection to such a plan was, that it would Pli i he a large portion of the kingdom under the operation of t ea , Statutes of Mortmain. To such an' arrangement th ey were the greatest objections, as it would tie up all t lands in the kingdom in the hands of an ecclesiast ie "l corporation. So much for the general consequenel, t su ch a plan. But another objection was, th a t these ls° he thus handed over to the clergy, would not partake of . t vg improvements of agriculture, for the incumbent ha vi th e only a life interest would not exp en d hi s mon ey i° ,fier e i m provement of lards w hi c h m i g h t i mme di ate ly wards pass into the h an d s o f hi s successor. At the ea l9 , time that he raised th ese o bj ec ti ons , h e f e lt that 0 ; 0 measure was necessary to quiet those feelings of of/O il e d, to tithes which sufferings of distress had lately proticc tc Before any m easure was i ntro d uce d , h e t h oug ht th e y ought to be inquiry, and he should be most ready W 3 tend the Committee. b y Tie Archbi s h op o f CANTERBURY w i s h e d the IS° Lord would withdraw the measure ; for otherwie e ba should be compelled to give a direct negative, whic h e et did not wish t o d o ; f o r h e e nt e rt a i ne d th e hi g h es t rel for the motives of the Noble Lord who had introduce 1 0 e The Commutation proposed would be none in reality, e t the nominal commutation would be subject to the paY c °,ol of rates. He thought that the Bill he had intro'' would effect the object which the Noble Lord had in V o gt and lie trusted, therefor e , th a t t h e N o bl e L or d w ool' further press the Bill at this moment. OO Ertl GREY recommended that the Noble Lord st- () " , not procured in this Bill till that of the Archbishop of, the terbury bad been f u ll y di scussed. He was a f r i en d °f e ll Most Rev. Prelate' s Bill , t h e pr i nc i p l e o f w hi c h, as as the details, he muc h admired, and believed that it vi- io' produce most b e n e fi c i a l e ff ects. Th at Bill was 11,0•1! tended to make an alteration in church property- - "? a bler strictly a Bill of R egu l at i on. I t wou ld b e most dent d. if it were pos s ibl e , t h at th i s su bj ect s h ou ld be Bett e ttO the provisions of one measure, but lie did not thin!' co d , it would be possible to accomplish so desirable al i ppi He respected the benevolent motives of the Noble indul : nfall Rev. prolu of the draw the Bi lent a Oa rya 1 a At '"vera Jr. .1 o f ch MoPec Ho u „ to gra An LEEN, Marco the wt N wig: