The Sun. — London, England, 1827-02-17 00:00:00

Revs& also, that his Majesty's character was as humane as that of NV Member of the Royal-Family, and therefore he could not be lieve that Ministers,had laid before the King a true statement of the condition of the country. He could not believe, for a moment, that with any knowledge of the state of the working population, .hisMajestynouhl have been induced to send down to that House the: Measage which they were then discussing. He was satisfied that it was by the advice of Ministers the King had recommended this, subject to the attention of Parliament. Ministers were in this case, as in that of Prince Leopold, worshipping the rising snn,, and sacrificing to their own interested views the welfare of the people. What could evince a more profligate disregard of the public good than in allowing so large a sum as 50,0001. to descend, as in that instance, in consequence of the accident that had befallen the Heiress Apparent ? He repeated, that he could not believe his Ma jesty was so destitute of the feelings ofhumanity, as to have sanctioned this- pro position if he had known the miseries of his people. His Majesty had been advised to adopt a course which derogated from his honour; and all who felt for the true honour and dignity . of the Crown must deeply regret that such advice had been given. What ! when his Majesty had so recently addressed a circular to the Clergy, calling upon them to collect subscriptions for hie starving people—when, in consequence of that circular, the public officers of parishes had been seen going from door to door to solicit pence from every inhabitant in aid of the public distress,—how was his Majesty's letter to be reconciled with the Message which his Majesty bad been advised to send down to that House? The public purse had been deemed inadequate to afford the smallest pittance in aid of the sufferings of thepeople ! and he should be glad to know from those who advised the begging col lection, what that collection had produced. Had it produced half what-the people were now called upon to add to the in come of the Duke of Clarence ? Had it produced twelve thousand pounds ? had it produced six thousand pounds ? The Ministers who could advise his Majesty to recommend these begging applications round the whole country ought not to have advised his Majesty, after the lapse of a few weeks, to act in so contradictory a manner. If, in the present state of the country, they had money to spare, let them give it to those who were dying for want of it.—(Hear, hear.)—Let. not that House be a party to a measure which would render the whole Royal Family odious, who felt that they were perishing for want, while Parliament was lavishing 9,0001. a-year of the public money upon an individual who had already 29,5001. a-year. He was told that state was of importance to the maintenance of royalty, if not, why all the paraphernalia with which the King was surrounded—why all the names which graced the Red Book, and consumed so large a portion of the million which was destined to support the Civil List? But to those who knew any thing of the disposition and mode of living of the Duke of Clarence, it was well known that no man was more averse from all unneces-. nary display and expenditure, in matters of forms. The Duke of Clarence was well known to be a man of plain, good, Eng • lists feelings, and indifferent to all these puerile distinctions.— The Chancellor.of the Exchequer had admitted, that the grant was proposed to be made, not to the person, but to the rank of the Duke.of Clarence, as Heir Presumptive; but he had to tally ailed ..to make out a case that this money was neces sarily_wanted,.even had the Duke been Heir Apparent. Instead of lavishing the, public; money, as it was now proposed to la vish it, a.reduction of the Civil List was the first thing which that House ought to look to. It was their duty to cut down un necessary expences, and, if they had any money to spare, to give it to those who had not a loaf of bread to put into their mouths. The peke of Clarence and his family were living as private individuals ; they had a house in town, and a house in the country ; they were supplied with every thing they wanted by the public. What possible necessity or pretence then could there be for adding 9,0001. a year to the 29,000/, a year already enjoyed? He felt deeply hurt at the manner in which this proposition had been brought before the House. He was not pre sent when the Message was brought down to the House ; but when he heard of it, he really could not believe it possible that any men bearing the humane, charitable, and excellent character which the members of his Majesty's Government, those at least who sat in that House, bore—(a loud laugh).—lt was certainly rather invi dious to make ex,ceptions ; but he spoke more particularly of the character of those whoN he knew of his own knowledge, and whom he believed, as far as his humble testimony could go, to be gene rally entitled to the character for which he gave them credit. He did not r therefore, believe it possible that the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite could have advised his Majesty to take the step which had been taken, and he did hope and bust that the House would pause before they committed themselves—(Hear, hear, heart)-,-Let them allow a little time to pass over, that the voice of the people might in some degree guide their decision. Let them hesitate before they exposed themselves to that reproach which must fall upon them, if they refused to afford any assistance to a starving people. He would ask the Right Honourable Se cretary for the 1 . -19 me Department, how he could receive the various applications from Glasgow, where thousands and tens of thousands of people were borne down by want to the last degree of misery—how he could possibly meet the appeals of men, who, with the mod perfect obedience to the laws, were starving quietly and dying of want, when he had recommended his Majesty to ask for an addition of 9,0001. a-year to the Duke of Clarence's income, having previously refused the pittance of a penny to these unfortunate individuals ? If the House of Commons supported this vote, they would abandon the interests of the people which it was their duty to guard; they would not prove themselves guardians of the public purse ; they would prove themselves anxious to please the few, at the expense of the many. He would rather see the many satisfied ; he would rather that the people should have confidence in their proceedings, and feel that justice was done them—that they should be placed in the situation in which they would be placed if they agreed to this vote. The money was not called for by the Duke of Clarence; it was the act of Ministers alone; and it was an act to which the House ought not to yield their accustomed passive obedience.— It was a question which involved the honour of the House, and the honour of the Royal Family themselves. His Majesty's Mi nisters had already compromised, in a great degree, that respect which he had entertained for them, for the care which he thought they were disposed to manifest for the public interests. He did not call upon any Hon. Member at once to reject this motion, but he trusted the consideration of the question would he adjourned. ooly called upon the House to take a little time for considera tion, b e fore they proceeded to vote an additional grant of 9,000/. a-year to ,the income of the Duke of Clarence, when the Duke was already I:4 possession of 29,500/. a-year. He moved, there fore, that the ,Siseaker do now leave the Chair, and report pro- ETES& Colonel WOOD regretted that the Noble Lord (Althorpe) had opposed the print motion. Nothing was more unpleasant than to make comparjeons ; but he was driven into this course by the proceedings of the Hop.ourable Gentlemen op posite; It certainly was not desirable or j tudici,ons to contrast the distresses of the people with the allowances which were necessary to uphold the dignity of the Royal family of England. If e did not think that there was any wish, on the pert of the public, to do so. On the contrary, he was persuaded, that it was the gene ral feeling in the House, and out of it, to enable the illustrious person on the Throne, and those who were likely to e ceed to the Throne, to support their exalted rank, and pay a their i way as they ought to do — ( A laugh.)—The addition of i year to the income of the Duke of Clarence would, in fact, be no- addition to the general expenditure of the country. it would not be an additional charge to the country of 9,0001. a year, but a diminution by 9,0001. a year of the savings which fell into the public by the death of the Duke of York.—(A laugh.)—His welt Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alluded to the domestic vi r t ue s of the Duke of Clarence and his Illustrious Consort: Now he (Colonel Wood) lived at no great distance from those I;:untrious Persons, and he had, therefore, opportuni ties of knowing and seeing the quiet, economical, and proper way in which they were sdisposed tritium Friend, the Chan: to conduct their affairs. His Thus ellor of the Exche q u er —(L ou d l au ghter.) —He should not do his duty if he did not state his conviction that there was not, at this moment, P. man in the country who enjoyed his family circle in a quiet way awe than this Illustrious person enjoyed it. He cordially supported th,,, ;notion, and he trusts i that Honourable Gentlemen would be induc,aii to withdraw their oppositicai to it. Mr. CURWEN regretted that this subject hgl been brought before the House; but, although the sum proposed t° be added to the income of th Duke of Clarence was not large, Wtelt - that he should not do his duty, if he did not sepport the Amendment. Mr. MONCK declared that he had not heard a ,ogle argument from .the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which couldjustify the present port the Amendment ; an laposition. He should certainly sup e only regretted that the Honourable Member for Aberdeen, instead o f moving for an adjournment of t h e discussion, had not met the m otion ?tion by a direct negative. M r , BROUGHAM_man can be more wil ling than I am at all times to l en d my assistance ing the just state and di g nit y of the Crag towards support n; and if a case had been made out to justify any increased allowan ce to the Illustrious Pe rs on w h o is the subject of the present discussion, I should have been foremost to lend my aid in support o f the the pr upon a esent question rests entirely u_ p roposition. But, o fact. Is it, or is n ot true, that i n cor,se q uence of the melanchol yevu s t , whic h . has lately taken p lace in the Royal Family, Hi g hness the Duke of C laren c e is exposed t so 'neater Royal than he w v a s before that event ? I f it _an 7_ ex be shopence wn that he has any enlarged state to keep up, any dignity to sup port now, as Heir Presumptive to the Throne, which he had not to keep up as one of the Illustrious Princes of the House of Bruns • wick—if, it can be proved that the scale of his expenditure for which provision was made before by Parliament, must of necessity —or I will even go farther—must fairly and reasonably be consi derably enlarged now, then the question would rest upon a different footing. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer took no such ground, he made no such statement; but he rested the preposition upon what •I am satisfied will turn out to be a mere misconception, or misrecollection of facts. The Right Hon. Gent. has said, that on all former occasions, in making provision for the younger branches of the Royal Family, regard was had to their proximity to the Throne. Now no such distinction was made in the last ad dition of 6,0001. a year to the income of all these illustrious per sons, with the exception of the Duke of York, who had been pro vided for before. The Right Hon. Gent. argued, that as often as a person became heir apparent or presumptive, his income was aug mented. This was not, however, the case; for when the Duke of York became heir apparent, upon the death of the Princess Charlotte, not one farthing was added to his income. But then it may be said that this has been done often enough before. When has it been done before ? Was the provision granted to the Duke of York on his marriage in 1792 granted to him as heir presumptive ? No such thing. The Duke of York was not heir presumptive, for there was an heir apparent to the Throne--his present Ma jesty, then Prince of Wales. The allowance to the Duke of York on his marriage, he it too much or too little (and I will say a word or two on that subject presently), was not made to him as heir presumptive, nor because he was the elder of the younger branches of the Royal Family. No distinction what ever was made between one Prince and another, nor any preference shewn to one of the younger branches of the Fa mily because he was older than another. This proposition I take to be demonstrated by the conduct of the Govern ment in MG, as well as by the course taken on all pre vious occasions. With regard to the Prince of Wales, as heir apparent to the Throne, a distinction has always been taken, and most justly, for he stands in a peculiar situation. He en joys by law certain ample rights and privileges, which belong to the station he occupies in the kingdom. The King, tl 4t Queen Consort, the Heir Apparent, and the Princess Royal, stand in a peculiar situation, distinguished by law from that of all the other branches of the Royal Family. Every one feels, that when the law raises a man to an eminent dignity, and puts upon him the expence inseparable from an eminent station, it is fitting that Parliament should provide the means of defray • ing that expence. The constitutional principle has always been, that as the law places the Queen Consort and the Heir Apparent in a different situation from that of the other branches of the Royal Family, their dignity should be maintained by a larger expence, and consequently a larger income. But the law recog nises no other distinction, and the Heir presumptive stands in no other situation than that of any one of the junior branches of the Royal Family. He is not called upon to incur any extraordinary expence ; and when the Right Hon. Gent. attempts now, for the first time, to make out a case for a larger allowance, it is incurn. bent upon him to shew that there is, legally and constitutionally, some difference in the situation of the Illustrious person in ques tion. This he has not done ; his reference to precedent, when examined, however lightly, entirely fails. I, therefore, with whatever reluctance, feel myself compelled to vote for further de lay, in order to inquire more minutely into the state of the case. The Duke of Clarence is not called upon to incur any additional expellee as Heir Presumptive to the Throne; and I look at the case, without any reference whatever to the public conduct or private virtues of the Royal Duke, simply as I would that of any other Member of the Royal Family filling the station which he occupies. The character and conduct of that illustrious person are calculated to leave no other feeling in my mind than that of deep regret at the course which my sense of public duty compels me to take, and also of regret that this question should ever have been brought under the consideration of the House. Mr. Secretary PEEL was fully sensible that there were no more unpleasant subjects of public discussion than that now under the consideration of the House. It certainly did not admit of rigorous demonstration that the sum of 9,0001. a-year was exactly the sum which ought to be awarded to the Illustrious Individual who filled the station of the Duke of Clarence. If the subject were one which admitted of his going into minute details, he believed such details would lead to the inference, that placed as the Duke of Clarence was in the situation of Presumptive Heir to the Throne, the addition of 3,000/. a-year to his income, and a grant of 6,000/. a-year to the Princess, his Illustrious Consort, was not an unreasonable proposition. Such, appeared to him, would be the general impression. He was perfectly willing to admit, that at this time, when considerations of expense were most important, no unreasonable proposition for the maintenance even even of the decent splendour of Royalty ought tp he made. But he did not think the state of the country was such as to preclude a reasonable addition to the income of the per son filling the station of Presumptive Heir to the Throne. He could not help thinking that, although the precedent of the allowance made to the Duke of York did not exactly apply in point of law, it was practically a precedent precisely in point.— He could not agree with the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, that his Right Hon. Friend had overstated, in point of fact, the example of the allowance made to the Duke of York. If, as the Hon. and learned Gentleman had shewn, the Duke of York did not stand in the situation of Presumptive Heir to the Throne, this was a still stronger instance of the liberality of Parliament on that occasion, and there was the less reason for objecting to a mmlerate addition to the income of a person standing in a nearer degree of proximity to the Throne than the Duke of York did at that time. The Honourable Member opposite was mis taken in stating, that a much larger grant was now proposed to the Duke of Clarence, than that which had been made to the Duke of York. The difference did not amount to more than fifteen hundred pounds ; the whole sum voted to the Duke of York and his Duchess having been 37,000/. ; and that to the Duke of Clarence and his Duchess being 38,5001. the Honour able and Learned Gentleman was wrong in supposing, that on former occasions, proximity to the Throne had not been taken into consideration. When the grant was made to the Duke of York, Mr. Pitt founded his application to Parliament on the Duke's proximity to the Throne. Mr. Pitt, in proposing the Grant on that occasion, declared in the plainest language, that be did not consider it at all as a precedent to be followed with regard to other Members of the Royal Family. He required, he said, that the grant should he given solely on account of the proximity of his Royal Highness to the Throne, and if similar settlements were to be proposed to other Members of the Family, he would not consider himself bound to regulate them by the example of the settlement bestowed on the Duke of York. In Mr. Pitt's opi nion, therefore, the proximity was the ground of the grant to hie Royal Highness the Duke of York, and the proximity, notwithstanding what may be asserted respecting the legal part of the question, was the ground in the present case. The Hon. Member for Wincheisga (Mr. Brougham) had argued that his Royal Highness was not the Presumptive Heir to the Crown in the eye of the law, and he had unqueetionably stated the point with g reat fairness and with p er f ec t l ega l accurac y ; t i ,)ut although he admitted that the Duke of Clarence might not legally be placed in that situation, it was not to be denied for an instant that he filled the place of an Heir Apparent—that he would be recognised in that situation for many important purposes—and that, in point of expence, he would be subjected to all the claims attendant upon it. If the Hon. Member for Aberdeen chose to deal in expressions of exaggeration, and to meet the question by details of the distress which unhappily prevailed, and. to say that the nine thousand pounds then demanded for the establish ment of the Duke of Clarence might be much snore usefully employed in purchasing bread for a starving people, be could only observe, without in the slightest degree affecting indiffer ence to the sufferings of those to whom he alluded, that there was no period, even of the greatest prosperity, when the Honourable Member -might not be able to use the same argument, and to say that they must not indulge themselves iu the expence of any national object, because there might he some persons unhappily placed in a state of distress, upon whom the money might he bestowed. Nothing, however, of all that the HonouraWe Member said, excited in him more surprise than the assertion, that it was a disgrace to his Majesty's Govern ment to send that Circular Letter, which called upon the Bishops to g. °licit relief for the distressed. That Leger had been written by his ad,eief.. ; it bad been at his express solicitation that an at tempt had been ma).e to produce a fund for the relief of the sufferers, through the aid of religious worship ; and so far from the application having been made in Fain, and having produced only six thousand pounds, he believed the Honourable Member would find, upon ipquiry, that very nearly fifty thousand pounds had been collected. He could not but regret that the Honourable Member in the opposition he thought proper to give to the mo tion, had chosen to mix up topics which had no possible con nection with the question, and instead of following the steps of the Honourable Member and the Noble Lord (Mr. Brougham and Lord Althorp), who preceded him, and whose opposition and whose protest were founded upon public grounds, had attached to the question arguments and accusations which hi:ordered very strongly upon invidiousness. Mr. ABERCROMBIE said, the main point rested upon public grounds, and must be dealt with, however painful it might be to the feelings of individuals, by the conscien tious discharge of a public duty. The single question was, whe , tiler the income of the Duke of Clarence was to be increased beyond the sum of 29,500/. a-year ? and looking at the present situation of the country, and the-circumstances in which they were placed, he was prepared to maintain that it ought not. Under the circumstances of the country, it was his determination therefore to oppose the grant of any additional allowance. Mr. CALCRAFT addressed the House under circumstances rendered doubly painful—first, from the nature of the subject, and next from the necessity under which he found himself of differing from thoseHonourable friends with whom he usually acted. It was his opinion —and the whole was a matter of opinion only—that no Member of the Royal Family could change his situation from that of a younger brother to the condition of Heir Presumptive to the Throne, without a vast change in his habits of life and expenditure. They ought not to forget either, that the Duke of York enjoyed a fortune infinitely larger than that which they were now about to vote the Duke of Clarence, and that the Princess Charlotte had, by an unanimous vote of the House, received a grant of 50,0001. a year. As far too as the matter was to be influenced by character, he might add that no two individuals of their station bore a higher reputation, or were more deserving of the approbation of the House. For these rea sons he would vote for the grant, and feeling that the country must approve of the grant, unless the state of their distress per verted their understandings, he could not think he fulfilled his duty unless he supported it by his vote. Mr. FERGUSON was not known to many of the Members of the House, but those who did know him could bear witness that he was not likely to give a vote unless conscientiously satisfied that lie could give it with propriety. He felt himself, therefore, bound to declare, that he must vote for the present grant, because convinced that the situation of his Royal Highness was changed, and, that he could no longer remain in his present retirement. Mr. JOHN MARTIN said, that if the measure was so popular as the Right Honourable Secretary (Mr. Peel), and the Honourable Member below him (Mr. Calcraft), seemed to imagine, he thought they could not do better than write another letter to the Bishops, calling upon them to raise the money by public contribution in the churches. (Loud laughter, and cries of hear, hear.) For his part, he did not see the popularity or the propriety of the grant, and he must, therefore, give it his decided negative. (Hear.) Mr. G. ROBINSON, although he usually voted with his Majesty's Ministers, yet felt himself bound, under the pre sent circumstances of the country, to give his negative to the pre sent grant. Mr. HUME then rose amid loud cries of question, and stated, in explanation, that he had been asked by several of his frie7.ds why he did not at once propose to negative the grant, instead of deferring its consideration. The reason for the course he had pursued was this—that by proposing to defer the grant until another'opportunity, he hoped his Majesty's Ministers would in the meantime see the propriety of withdrawing the proposition altogether, and save them from the reproach of giving a negative to a provision for a Member of the Royal Family. The Hon. Member was proceeding to make some further observations, when he was interrupted by loud cries of " Question."—Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided— For Mr. Hume's Amendment 65 Against it 167 Majority for the Grant 102 The House then resumed, and the Chairman, after reporting progress, obtained leave to sit again on Monday next. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, that the Speaker leave the Chair, and that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply on the Ordnance Estimates, Mr. MABERLY rose to oppose the Speaker's leaving the Chair. He was induced to do so, principally for the same reason that he had stated on a former evening, when the Navy Estimates were brought before the House—namely, an un willingness to concur in voting any Estimates, until the House were put in possession "of what were the probable resources of the country, from which these Estimates were to be supplied.— The receipts and expenditure should be laid before the House, and an opportunity should be afforded of comparing them with the amount of the estimated receipts and expenditure contained in the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If this amount was laid before the House, he apprehended that there would be found a great defalcation, from the expectation of reduced expenditure, which the Right Honourable Gentleman had, from time to time, held out to the House and the Country. With a view of ascertaining what comparison the real expenditure and income of 1826 bore to the estimated one of the Chancellor of - the Ex chequer, he moved for an Account of the Net Public In come in the year ended the sth of January, 1827, after abating the expenditure thereont, defrayed by the several Revenue De partments, and of the actual issues or payments within the same period, exclusive of the sums applicable to the redemption of funded property. Front that account, which had been since printed, he observed a very great falling off from the prospect for merly held out to the country by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He regretted to say that there was so great a defalcation as from 3,000,0001. to 4,000,0001. The House would bear in mind, that it was provided that there should be a sinking fund of 5,000,000/. of unredeemed funded debt, which, together with in terest on redeemed debt, the money in the hands of the Bank of England to pay off 5 per Cents. gave an amount applied to the redemption of the funded debt, of 5,621,231/. Now, in the ac count laid before the House, the following was the amount of the Income and Expenditure:— Net income paid into the Exchequer (total) £54,894 10 3 Net Expenditure (total) Surplus of income over expenditure— £1,009 BOf Now, although this was very much below the standard of com parison which, from the statements of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, the House might expect the expenditure to bear to the income; yet, what he was now desirous of calling the attention of the House to, was, that in this account the Sinking Fund was not at all considered. There was, it was true, a balance of 1009/. of income over expenditure ; but so far from this sum being a real surplus of expenditure over income, that it must go towards the further sum of 3 or 4,000,000/. which was requisite to make up the charge of the Sinking Fund, which, as be had before estimated was put down in a balance sheet at 5,621,2311. 6s. 2d. The next point that presented itself to his attention on an inspection, was the contribution towards funding 8,000,000 of Exchequer Bills, and the money raised in the year, ended 1827, by the creation of Un funded Debt. And this, it should be borne in mind, was created after the House had come to a resolution to diminish the Unfunded Debt of the country —a wiser measure could not be adopted than to abolish it altogether. He would now proceed to compare the statement which the Right Honourable Gentleman made to the House in March, 1826, with the results of the state of the Reve nufrome;baenidngthreeaHlizoer aH-oeulwdolpeddredeoivseohfootrvthfearptulriaptossetaotfemgueanrtd‘ivnags the House from being misled in future, by any high promise which might be held out to them ; and to guard, at present, against any lavish expenditure, in the Estimates, which they might be now called upon to vote, On the occasion to which he referred (March, 1826) the Right Honourable Gentleman stated in his place in that House— The whole sum to he'received, during the present year, would be £ 57,043,000 If from this sum be deducted the Expenditure, amounting to " 56,328,421 There would remain to be dealt with a clear surplus of This surplus the Right Honourable Gentleman seemed to think the House would have to dispose of in whatever manner it might please ; but so far from there being such a surplus, notwithstand ing the appearance of a surplus of 1,009,4481., there was on the face of the accounts themselves a defalcation of three or four lions. He had already shewn, how an erroneous impression might be taken from a statement of the printed account to which he had referred, by the omission in that account altogether of the Shaking Fund, and by its being transferred to a balance-sheet on the back of the account. He would proceed to remark upon further variance in the printed account now laid before the House, and the items of charge as originally estimated in the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in the charges in the printed account, a cons id era bl e i nc rease was t o b e f oun d i n the latter u n d er t h e f o ll ow i ng heads of pspence • Expenditure from the Chan- Expenditure according to the cellor's Statement. Printed Account. For the Interest and For the Interest and Management of I Management of the PUblicnehtl£27,ll7,lB6 the Pa1icDebt.£27,245,750 The Army .... ..... 7,747,000 The Army Navy 6,135,000 Navy The Hon. Memb er pro c ee d e d t o advert to other items of charge, all of which exhibited an increase beyond the estimated calculation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In the Ordnance Depart ment—the Civil List—the Miscellaneous charges, and, he might indeed say, in every branch of the Revenue, there had been a remarkable failure of the realization of the expectations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He knew it might be said, that there was always supposed to be a variance between the estimates at the commencement of the year, and the result of them, as ezhi - bited at the close of the current year. He saw no reason why there should be such a variance, or why there should not be laid before the House a statement of the expences of the year with accuracy—with more accuracy, at least, than should admit of so large a defalcation, as upon the face of the accounts now ap peared. He wished to know if any additional sum would be re quired to meet the deficiencies he had noticed ?—whether it was intended to put up another portion of the Dead Weight for sale ?—or was it intended to impose new taxes ? For to either of these modes must the Government resort if they in tended to keep up so great an expenditure as that of last year.— He condemned the sale of the portion of it to the Bank that had been sold, and for this reason, among others, because he thought the Bank, from the relation in which they stood to the Govern ment, the very worst purchaser that could be found for it. As to the imposition of taxes, he apprehended that in the present state of the country, it was not in contemplation—yet it was an alternative not more dangerous and to be avoided than the mea sure he referred to. Again, he begged to call on• the Chancellor of the Exchequer to explain what were his intentions as to the Dead Weight, the Sinking Fund, and the Taxes? The House should not be called on to vote the Estimates in the embarrassed financial situation of the country ; in the distress which prevailed; and in the ignorance in which they were placed, as to the re sources from which these Estimates were to be drawn. He did not appear there to embarrass the Government, but to watch over the voting of those Estimates, which were generally too little at tended to by Hon. Members. Large sums were voted in very thin Houses, which would not be so lavishly applied, if Hon. Members paid more attention to this important part of their Par liamentary duty. The Navy Estimates were already voted, on a large scale. He besought- the most rigorous inspection of the House of Commons to those which remained—the Ordnance, the Military, and the Colonial ; especially to the two latter. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt himself placed in considerable difficulty by the question put to him, and the inquiries made by the Honourable Member. It was not from any unwillingness to give the fullest information in his power on these topics, but he could not do so now without giving a partial explanation upon them, as he was net prepared to bring before the House other subjects intimately and necessarily con nected with them. As he could not at that moment bring the whole financial state of the country fully before the House, it would be unfair to all parties to enter into partial discussions,which might convey erroneous impressions. It was bis anxious wish, during the period that he held the office of the Chancellor of the Exche quer, to bring forward the consideration of the financial state of the country at as early a period of the Session as possible. He hoped shortly to bring it forward, but, at present, he owned he was not in a situation to do so. When he should bring it forward, he hoped to furnish a full and satisfactory explanation on all the matters referred to by the Honourable Gentleman. But beeause he was not at that moment prepared to enter into the extensive subject, was that, he would ask, a fair rea son, in the present situation of the country, why a shilling should not be voted for the support of a single sailor, a single soldier, or a single artillery-man.--(Hear, hear, hear.) — Although it was not his intention at present to enter into any minute explanation of the state of our finances, there were some points in the Hon. Gentleman's statement on which he would make a few remarks. The Hon. Member had taken a very im perfect view of the subject. He (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) did not deny, that on the face of the balance paper, instead of there being a surplus for the year to the amount of four or five millions, which he had flattered himself there would have been, it appeared that the surplus was little more than one million. There could be no doubt that that was the case, and he very much regret ted it. If, however, the Honourable Gentleman was war ranted in arguing as he had done on the defalcation of the pre sent year, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was undoubtedly entitled to ask the House to recollect what had been the state of the balance-sheet in preceding years. In 1823 he had antici pated a surplus of only 5,000,000/. the result, however was, that the surplus was no less than 6,700,000/. ; so that in that year the fact had outgone his anticipation of it by 1,700,000/. In the next year, 1824, he had stated that it was reasonable to expect that the surplus would be the same that he had antici pated in the year preceding ; but it exceeded that amount by 1,400,000/. In the year 1825 the surplus exceeded his antici pation by 160,000/. In the three years the actual surplus of the revenue over the expenditure had exceeded his estimate of it in that House by upwards of three millions. The fair thing was to take a view of all the years together. That indeed was the course Which he originally asked the House and the country to pursue. In 1824, he had submitted to Parliament the expediency of view ing the probable circumstances of the country through a series of years. Looking at the question in this point of view; regarding the series of years during which he had had the honour to hold his present situation, be thought it would not be considered that the an ticipations which he had ventured to make with respect to the finances of the country justly deserved to be called excessive.-L- Thus taking all the years, the deficiency of four millions and a half in the present year on which the Honourable Member for Abingdon had dwelt, must be reduced by the three millions of surplus in the antecedent years. Let the House read the balAnce sheets of all the years, and they would find that deducting the sur plus of three millions in former years from the deficiency of four millions and a half in the present, would leave the actual defi ciency in the series of years only a million and 'a half, instead of four millions and a half —There was another point to which the Honourable Member had adverted,and on which he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) wished to say a few words. In these balance-sheets certain sums were introduced which necessarily appeared to belong to the expenditure ; but which were only advances made by Government in pursuance of Acts of Parlia ment, and which advances would of course be eventually re iptaeint olff thisthe H d o o n so . r N ip le ti m oo be w r f i o th r Aalblintgdhoonaowcoourladcygowhthiorhouigth was well known he possessed ;---if he examined both sides of the account, for the last four years, and compared the sums which had been thus advanced by Government with the sums which had been repaid, h having been only Exchequer) had conte nded for, it had been consid erably wouldasthead vance t e hree wo m ul i d llio find os , that whioh instead he(th of fthe Chancellor surplus of the t proveeonoetrchae : hat, even taking the last He even at la i sttems.Onew year into th e calcula tion been no deficiency at all. This was a fact which ju b ti e on r sh , e'and h o u h therel be perfectly ready to whenever yparoppor tunitysceen by shouldeeortnt n arrive noticeent f o u r af that fith, of sumof 24 purpose. e of the Leith Docks , with the dues arising from th em ;—a great and beneficial national object. The gre a t er part, if not the whole of this sum, would he eventually repa id . N ow that could 07e. r for a proper he purchase s not, in the strict sense of the word, be called an expense, because the !urn which had been advanced bore an interest, and because the principal would revert to the count'l-' The Duke of Ath o l' s annuity was the next it em o f this description which he would notice., It was well known that the family of the Duke of Athol had ancient claims on the revenue of the Isle of Man. In the year 1605, an Act of Parliament passed, by which a pension was granted to the Duke o f Ath o l, f or a surrender of a part of these claims ; he retaining a portion of the duties paid in the Island.— Subsequently, the duties paid in the Island were considerably in creased. The Duke of Athol, however, was not entitled to any share of the increased rate of duty. But this was felt to be an exceedingly inconvenient state of things. He did not know that it occasioned any inconvenience to his Grace, but to the Treasury it was the source of much embarrassment and difficulty; and it was thought desirable to simplify matters by purchasing from the Duke of Athol the right he claimed to a certain part of the Revenue of the Island. The Duke naturally felt indisposed to part with his right except upon terms commensurate with its value. An Act of Parliament was passed enabling the Lords of the Treasury to come to an agreement with his Grace, and referees were appointed. The referee on the part of the Crown was a man of the highest character; once a distinguished Mem ber of that House, and now holding an important official situation in the other House of Parliament ; he meant Mr. William Cour tenay, whose honourable character and habits of business rendered him an excellent choice on the part of the Treasury. The re ferees met, and minutely discussed the subject; and, after various elaborate calculations, determined that 150,000/. was the value of the annuity which the Duke of Athol derived from the duties of the Isle of Man. The present times were unprosperous ; but nevertheless in the present year this 150,000/. was bringing in au improving revenue, and was now paying five per cent. He repeated, therefore, that this could not be called an item of expenditure in the ordinary meaning of the expression. Then there was the money advanced in pursuance of an Act of Parliament to the Corporation of London to assist in building Lon don Bridge. That stood on just the same ground. It was impossible for him at the beginning of the year, before the Cor poration of London knew what would be the expence of the undertaking, and whether it would be necessary for them to en force the provisions of the Act by calling on the Treasury to ad vance them a loan on the credit of the Orphans' Fund, to intro duce to Parliament any estimate on this subject. In fact the City of London would never have applied to the Treasury for pecuniary aid for this purpose, had it not been for the peculiar circumstances which last year attended all money transactions, and drove them to the wall when they endeavoured to obtain the requisite supply else where. For the sum advanced by the Treasury on this account, they had the tangible property of the City of London pledged to them as security ; and until the repayment of the principal, interest of between two and three per cent. per annum. This item, therefore, did not belong to what was ordinarily called expendi ture, The advances of the Commissioners of Exchequer Bills in England, and of the Commissioners of the Consolidated Fund is Ireland, came under the same rule. But with all the labour and ingenuity by which the Honourable Member for Abingdon was so eminently distinguished, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) defied him to anticipate at the beginning of the year what the amount of those advances would be. Here was the hardship of his case. The Hon. Gent. always considered it desirable that the financial state of the country should be detailed in the begin ning of the year, a practice which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) always objected to. But it was very hard that the Hon. Gentleman having called for this financial statement, at the beginning of the year, should then (to use a favourite phrase of his) turn round and reproach him (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer), for not having anticipated that of which it was utterly impossible he could have any nowledge previous to its occurrence. The Hon. Gentleman complained, that whereas he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had estimated the expense of the army, &c. for the last year, at 7,747,0001. ; it had actually amounted to 8,297,000/. That was perfectly true; but how did it happen ? All that he could possibly do at the commencement of a Session was, to state to the House the sum which he thought it would be expedient to vote in the supply. It was, however, utterly im possible that all the money voted in the supply for the year should be drawn in that year ; for a great part of that supply was applicable to services in distant parts of the world, and could not be comprehended in any limited period. A great part of the 8,297,0001. was on account of grants of antecedent years. It also happened that in 1826 the services were paid more rapidly than was usual. At the close of the year, a state of political circumstances arose which rendered it necessary to draw out money for the services of the year more rapidly than ordinary. Had it not been for the armament which had occurred, the balance sheet on the table would have presented a very different appearance. It was also clear that in exact propor tion as the payments in 1826 for the army had been rapid, the grants remaining to be disposed of had decreased. It was the same with the navy and the ordnance. As to the miscellaneous estimates, they were made up partly of the grants of former years which became payable in the year, and partly of grants within the year. The difference between the estimate and the sums actually paid was not considerable. It amounted only to about 100,000/., and although he did not pretend to assume any great credit for that quality, he really did not think that it was any reproach to his foresight that he had not been nearer in his anticipation. The Honourable Member for Abingdon had then fallen upon all his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) errors with respect to the estimated receipt of the year. It was perfectly true he had been too sanguine ; it would be absurd to deny it ; he had expected the revenue would be more productive than it had turned out to be. But the Honourable Member had not quite fairly argued this subject. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had anticipated that in the year 1826 the Customs and Excise together would yield 3 6,846,000/. The actual produce had been 36,450,000?.; being about 400,0001. less than he had anticipated. Now really such a difference on a revenue of nearly thirty-seven millions, between the estimate and the produce, that estimate too framed under circumstances of con siderable difficulty, and which baffled all attempts at rigid calcula tion, was comparatively speaking so small, that upon his word, if he did not know that a prophet had no honour in his own country, he should be tempted to claim credit for his accuracy, in stead of admitting the justice of the Hon. Member's reproach,and allowing that his want of foresight ought to withdraw from him the confidence of the country. On the article of Stamps he cer tainly had been decidedly wrong. He estimated their produce at 7,400,000/. ; but he got no such thing, he got only 6,007,000/. The fact was that he had been too sanguine. It was, perhaps, the error of his character. But however that might be, he'most willingly allowed that he had been widely wrong in this estimate. But he could by no means admit the justice of the Honourable Member's remark that with respect to the miscellaneous estimates he had not dealt quite fairly. Undoubtedly those estimates had not pro duced the amount which he supposed they would pro duce. He had estimated them at 1,350,000/. ; they had pro duced only between 900,000/. and 1,000,000/. One of the items of these miscellaneous estimates was the return which he expected from Ireland of the old silver coin which had been called in. In the antecedent year the sum of 500,000/. had been voted for a new silver coinage in Ireland ; and he had anticipated that the return of the old silver coin to the Treasury would amount to 400,000/. ; whereas it had amounted only to 260,0001. More, however, was receivable, and no doubt would be received in the present year; the delay in its payment having been occasioned by no immediate demand having been made for it. From this source arose a deficiency of near 200,000/. ; which was undoubt etedrl m y i h n i a s t e io rr n or o . f th H e e L h o aci tt e m iy ad b e e a h n a o d the b r e e m n i ledstak t ß u e the re m isthteafien ofal conceiving that a certain portion of profit remained to be received by the public from that source. He had not found out his error until it was too late to rectify it ; and had therefore anticipated a receipt of 180,000/., which never accrued. These were the cir cumstances which reduced the produce of the miscellaneous esti mates below his estimate. But then the Hon. Member for Abing don said that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had taken credit for repayments made to the Commissioners of Exchequer Bills in England, and of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, to the amount of 273,000/. Never. He had always excluded items of that description from his statement; it being utterly impossible to anticipate either the issues or the returns. It would indeed be a miserable trick, of which he was sure the Honourable Gentleman could not suppose that he would be guilty, had he taken credit for repayments without noticing issues ; but the fact was, that the Honourable Gentleman was wrong in imagining that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had adverted to the subject at all in his anticipation of the receipt and expenditure of the year. He was not aware that he could at present go more par ticularly or minutely into these points. When a fit opportunity should occur for a full discussion of the subject, he should be ready to prove to the House, and he thought satisfactorily, that although on the face of the balance-paper there appeared to be a surplus. of only one million, there was no reason whatever to in fer from that circumstance that we were incapable of making every effort that might be required for the maintenance of our honour, and for the support of the various establishments which were necessary for the good of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MABERLY explained. Mr. HUME admitted that the Right Hon. Gen tleman had satisfactorily explained the deficiency in the produce of the Miscellaneous Estimates, and hoped he would have the power of affording the further explanation of which he talked. He did not mean to throw any imputation on the Right Hon. Gentle man, but merely to say, that in his Estimates of last year he was too sanguine. He would confine his remarks to the ordinary re venue and expenditure ; to the amount received from taxation ; and to the amount paid for the maintenance of our establishment, and for the interest of the debt. If the House would do him the favour to attend to him, he would endeavour to explain the matter. In 1825 the revenue was 52,000,000/. ; in 1826 it was 49,600,0001., being 4 diminution of 2,400,0001. Out of this revenue the Act of Parliament required that a net surplus of 5,000,000/. should be applied as a Sinking Fund. Instead, how ever, of a surplus of 5,000,000/., the Right Hon. Gentleman him, self admitted that he had only a surplus of 1,000,0001. It followed that there was a deficiency in the last year of 4,000,000/, The expenditure of the country had increased as follow :—ln 1825, the Army, Navy, Ordnance, &c. had been 17,212,000/. ;in 1826 • they had been 19,344,000/. ; being an increase of 2,132,0001. Combining the deficiency of revenue with the increase of expend i ture, it was easy to understand why the surplus should not exceed a million. The question for the House to consider was, whether we were in a condition to go on in the same manner next year. The Right Honourable Gent. said that we were; he (Mr. Hume) said that we were not. Why? With that surplus million we had pretended to reduce five millions and a half of debt. But how ? In the old way. By borrowing four millions and a half, and adding to that sum the million of surplus, we made it appear on paper that five millions and a half of debt had been redeemed. He must protest against such a delusion. He would show that the surplus million was already altogether absorbed by the expences which had been incurred, leaving out of the question all considerations of loans or sinking funds. He would take it fer granted that the revenue of the pre sent would not exceed the revenue of the last year. In the first place, there were Life Annuities to the amount of 580,0001. a year, which, strange to say, were never brought to the public account, but were always paid out of the Sinking Fund. Then there was the sum of 200,000/. increase in the interest-of, the outstanding debt ; occasioned by raising, on the Ist of January, the rate of interest on Exchequer Bills from three halfpence to two-pence ; and lastly, there was nearly the sum of 400,0001. to supply the deficiency arising from reducing the 5 per cents. These three sums would make it necessary to pay 1,160,0001. more in 1827, than in the last year. The consequence was, that, supposing the surplus of 1827 to be equal to that of the last year, there would, nevertheless, be a bona fide deficiency of above 140,0001.—We had incurred a debt of 3,000,000/. in the management of the Dead Weight of only 13,000,000/. --so much for attempting to bolster up the Sinking Fund. We had been proceeding in this unneces sary accumulation of debt from the period of Sir Robert Walpole to the present time. If, under the name of a Sinking Fund, Ministers had at their disposal, a surplus Revenue of 5,000,000/. they would sooner or later find means of expending that stupluo,