The Sun. — London, England, 1834-07-03 00:00:00

iteration of this measure till next session, believing that, so far from having a beneficial result, it would have just the reverse, and lead to a great deal of mischievous agitation throughout the country. The idea of dividing the bill, as proposed by the noble earl, had not escaped the attention of his Majesty's Ministers ; but after due consideration it was thought unadvisable. He believed, too the noble earl was mistaken in supposing that that house had the power of originating measures upon either bastardy or settlement, as he supposed. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the house would enter calmly and deliberately into the con sideration of this measure, which was the most important he had seen introduced since he had entered Parliament, nearly half a century. Even should it be necessary for their lord ships to extend their sitting to a late period of the year he hoped they would diligently apply themselves to the con sideration and discussion of this measure. The provisions of the bill would more properly come under discussion at a later stage ; and to this principle he believed no objection erns entertained. The noble earl certainly had expressed an opinion that the present state of the poor laws did not call for interference on the part of the legislature. It might be true, and no doubt it was, that the evils complained of arose in a great degree from the mal-administration of the poor laws, and that improvement had taken place within the last one or two years ; but those circumstances did not absolve them from the duty of adopting any measures they thought would be advantageous. He must repeat, that after the time the subject bad already been under considera tion, after the length of time the report of the poor law commissioners had been before the public, and the full discus sions had in the other House of Parliament upon the sub ject, he did not feel disposed to postpone the second reading of this bill beyond the day he had named. The Marquis of SALISBURY thought that they could not possibly have time to read through a bill with ninety clauses in it by Monday next, se as to come to the dis cussion with a proper understanding of the subject. He hoped the noble earl would consent to a postponement to Friday week. The Duke of RICHMOND observed that, if the noble marquis's proposal were adopted, there would be no time to consider the bill in committee. When they allowed the bill to be read a second time they adopted nothing but ita principle. What was the principle of this bill ? The great object of the bill was to reinstate the labourers in the condition in .which they were some years ago, so that they might gain their livelihood by their own honest indus try, instead of being dependent upon parish relief as paupers. The bill did not go so far as the Poor Law Commissioners recommended. He hoped it would be read a second time on Monday. If postponed to Friday week many of their lordships would be out of town. The Marquis of SALISBURY said that if he thought the principles of the bill were what the noble earl had re presented he should be as anxious as he was for its speedy passage through the house, and so he was sure would every noble lord ; but he could not look upon that as the real principle of the measure. Judging from the number of clauses devoted to that object, he could help consider ing this as a bill to establish a set of commissioners to take the management of the poor out of the hands of their natural guardians, and give it to them. Such a principle might be good, but it struck him, and the public also, that much greater powers were given than ►ere ne cessary. It would be two or three days before the bill worild be printed, and it would take a long time to read with proper attention. The Earl of MALMESBURY observed that his ob jection applied to the bill's being proceeded with this ses sion. If it was to be gone through with this session, the sooner the better the second reading took place. Lord WYNFORD thought the sooner they began upon the bill the better, if it was not intended to put it off till next session. He should be glad to think with his noble friend that the principle of this bill was to restore the la bourer to the condition he was in some years ago ; but he feared it would have a contrary result. He hoped that sufficient time would be given, to enable their lordships fully to understand the character and bearing of the mea sure. In that event he was satisfied it would not pass this session. The LORD CHANCELLOR pressed his noble friend not to accede to the suggestions of the noble marquis. He was sure by delaying the bill till next session, no calm or temperate discussion would be the effect. It had already been fully discussed, and by postponing it it would only be giving time to array the sinister influences of parish agita tion and vestry jobbing against this measure of paramount importance, as on all hands was admitted. The question involved in the passing of this bill, which his noble and learned friend had told them would not pass this session, was simply this : whether the estates of their lordships should be taken from their lordships and transferred to ether hands altogether ? That was the real question, and that was the way in which the commissioners viewed the matter. Were they then to discuss such a question calmly and temperately, and with a total absence of all party feel ing and party bias and passion, without reference to any feeling against the Government, or any division against the Government, bringing to the consideration all that the most enlightened and impartial minds had contributed for their assistance ? That ' was the way in which it was proposed to have it discussed in that house in the present session. But if, as proposed by the noble earl, the question were al lowed to stand over for a whole summer and winter, that all the enlightened that parish agitators and vestry jobbing could cast upon the subject might be brought to bear against it (" No," from the Earl of Malmesbury) he did not say that the noble earl had said so, or that such was his object, but that would be the effect of his proposal being acceded to ; and it was his duty t o p o i nt out t h at such would be the consequence of the postponement, to which he hoped his noble friend would not accede. The Earl of MALMESBURY had no such parties in his mind when he made his suggestion ; but he wished to have the opinion of the magistrates at quarter sessions, to whose opinion he attached much consideration. He also wanted the practical opinions of many gentlemen through.. out the country who were accustomed to take considerable interest in the administration of the poor laws in their several districts. The noble and learned lord imputed to him motives which he did not entertain. The Duke of WELLINGTON observed that the only question was whether the bill should then be read a first time. As to the second reading he thought they ought to have time to acquire a proper understanding of the bill, and to refer to those acts which the bill proposed to repeal. Excepting for these very proper objects he was quite sure that no noble lord on his side of the house desired to post pone the second reading of the bill one moment beyond the necessary time for its being printed and circulated amongst their lordships. All that he knew about the bill was that it was a very long one, and that it had yet to be printed ; and he was sure the noble earl could not wish to press the second reading upon the house before they could have had time to make themselves masters of its provisions. The Bishop of LONDON wished merely to state to their lordships that, although it might possibly turn out that this bill was not calculated to give effect to its prin ciple, yet the principle of it undoubtedly was to reinstate the labourer in the condition he was in about half a century ago. Such was the intention and feeling of the commis sioners with regard to the bill, and although the alterations it had experienced in the other house might have impaired its efficiency, still he thought the noble marquis had mis taken the machinery for the principle of the measure. The central board was the machinery of the bill. The com missioners had recommended nothing in their report which had not been tried in some important parish in the kingdom, and which, in proportion as it was persevered in, was suc cessful in bettering the condition of the labourers, and re deeming them from the degradation of flying to the parish funds upon every trifling emergency. He was sure that by passing the bill into a law their lordships would do an act not less consistent with the sound principles of hu manity than the most approved means of political economy. Earl GREY then agreed that the bill should now be printed, read a second time on Tuesday, and committed at the end of the week. The press had been kept standing so as to expedite as much as possible the printing of the bill, and he had no doubt it would be delivered by Thurs day or Friday. The bill was then read a first time, ordered to be printed, and read a second time on Tuesday next. Earl GREY moved the second reading of the Pensions and Civil Offices Bill. Lord ELLENBOROUGH made some observations not distinctly audible in the gallery. The Earl of ROSE BERY b roug h t up the report of the select committee on the Scotch Entail Bill, which after a few words from the Earl of Haddington and the Lord Chancellor was agreed to. On the motion of the Earl of ROSE BERY copies of the report were ordered to be sent to the Judges in Scotland. —Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 2. There was no morning sitting. The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past four, th e chair h av i ng b een prev i ous l y occupied in balloting for a committee t o t ry t h e county o f M onag h an election petition. The committee was appointed. Mr. S HEIL said he wished to put a question to the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland. He understood that the barony of L ang f or d, i n the county of Galway, had b een proclaimed and placed under the operation of the Coer cion Bill, contrary to the recommendation of the Marquis of Clanricarde, the Lord Lieutenant of the county. He wished to ask whether such was the fact ? Lord J. RUSSELL said his right hon. friend (Mr. Lit tleton) was not then in his place. The hon. and learned gentleman had better postpone the question until his right hon. friend was present. Mr. SHEIL gave notice that he would to-morrow move for a copy of any communication made upon the subject by Lord Clanricarde to the Irish government. COERCION BILL. Mr. O'CONNELL said he wished to put another ques tion to the right hon. Secretary, but not seeing him in the house he would make it the subject of a notice. He be lieved the Coercion Bill which the noble lord at the head of the Govomment obtained leave to bring in yesterday was introduced against the wishes and the recommendation of the Irish Government. He now gave notice that he would to-morrow move for copies of any communications made by the Irish Government to his Majesty's Ministers upon the subject. On the motion of Mr. HUME various returns were or dered connected with the Merchant Seamen's Society. Mr. HODGES presented a petition from the parish of Sedloe, in Kent, in favour of the Established Church. They wished, at the same time, that every fair indulgence should be extended to the scruples of Dissenters. The hon. member presented similar petitions from Chifney and River head. Mr. BAINES presented petitions from various Metho dists and other congregations in Leeds, praying that com pensation might be given for the wanton destruction of pro perty which occurred in the West Indies. Captain ELLIOT presented a petition from Kelso-on the subject of intemperance ; one from Gallashiels, com plaining of the heavy duty on coals ; from Hythe (as we understood) praying for the sep ara ti on o f Ch urc h an d State ; and from the schoolmasters of Kelso praying for remuneration. Mr. P. THOMSON presented a petition from various persons in Manchester against alterations in the Lancaster Courts. Mr. HUME presented a petition from Brecon against the application of public money in payment of church rates, and from another place for a free trade in corn. Lord NORREYS presented a petition from a parish in the county of Norfolk against the admission of Dissenters into the Universities. Mr. PEASE presented a petition from certain ministers of Methodist congregations at Stockport against the union of church and state ; and another petition from persons employed in steam navigation, praying that they might be admitted to the benefits ofthe Merchants Seamen's Society. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought in a bill to empower his Majesty to enable certain companies and asso ciations to sue and be sued in the names of their officers. Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday next. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL also brought in a bill to amend the law relative to wills, &c.—Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday next. In answer to a question put by Mr. O'Connell, the ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that this latter bill would apply to Ireland as well as to England. REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS. Lord J. RUSSELL mos ed the further consideration of the report of this bill. The bill was then recommitted. After a short and unintelligible conversation in com mittee, The ATTORNEY -GENERAL said that a registra ion of births of Dissenters was necessary even to Protest ants and to all persons who had or might be left property. Without a proper and legal registry of births, marriages, and deaths, it would be in many cases, and in cases where Protestants and every other sect might be concerned, very difficult to decide in a court of law to whom property be longed. In the course of his practice he had seen in courts of law forgeries and many other expedients resorted to to obtain property, all of which would have been prevented if there had existed what this bill contemplated, namely, a full registry of births, marriages, and deaths. Lord SANDON objected to that part of the proposed measure which enjoined a penalty even on the poor man unless it was found that he registered within a certain pe riod. Besides this pecuniary punishment, he considered it harsh that a family should be disturbed at a time when death had brought them under affliction, and that they should be put to the cruel inconvenience that would result from this bill. Lord ALTHORP said that the bill was brought in because the present mode of registration was extremely de fective. The principle of it would be to cause the collec tors of taxes to receive the registers, which were to be supervised by the surveyors of taxes, and transmitted by them to a general Registry Office. This seemed to him the most convenient mode of registration. He saw no reason whatever why the machinery of the bill should not work well, and he considered that this was the very best mode that had yet been suggested for the purpose of the registra tion of births. Colonel DAVIES said that he quite agreed in the im portance of the bill, but did not see any objection to pro ceeding with the discussion of it at that time. He should have preferred it if the duty of keeping the parish register had been thrown on the clergyman or the parish clerk than on the tax gatherer. He thought that by this means the register would be taken greater care of, as it would be locked up with the other documents belonging to the parish. Mr. BAINES thought that there would be many ob jections to such an arrangement as was proposed by his honourable friend (Colonel Davies). One of the chief ob jections to the arrangement of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) was that it created an appearance of dependence on the church. Dr. LUS H I NGTON had not expected that the bill would have been proceeded with during the present session. He agreed with the Attorney-General as to the absolute necessity of some general registry of births and marriages. He could state from his own experience that the present sys tem was productive of the greatest inconvenience to the country at large, and he was therefore willing to lend his assistance to any measure which would remedy the defects of it, so that there should be a complete register of births, marriages, and deaths. At the same time he was bound to state that it appeared to him that the question was replete with difficulties, and it required the greatest deliberation on the part of the house, both as to its principles and details, to apply a remedy. He doubted whether the measure before the Committee would in its present stage attain the ends in view. If, however, his Majesty's Ministers and the house thought there was time in the present session to frame the bill in such a way as to overcome all the difficulties which might arise, he would concur in carry ing it into effect, and would render every assistance for that purpose, but it would be most objectionable to at tempt to carry any measure into effect which was not almost perfect. He thought it most desirable that they should have a registry to refer to in cases of difficulty ; but the present bill admitted the registry as evidence in cases in which he believed that it would not be altogether prudent. He agreed also that the machinery contemplated by the bill was too expensive, and doubted whether the conse quence would not be the keeping a number of registers, and thus diminishing the security. He would not oppose pro ceeding with the bill, but would wait till it came out of committee, when he should be able to judge whether the measure was sufficiently improved to be carried into effect. He thought that the advantages of a registry were so great that he never would agree to a measure for the purpose, unless it could be easily carried into effect, and at the same time afford security. Sir J. WROTTESLEY was most anxious that the mea sure should be carried into effect. He thought that the tax gatherer was the best person who could be selected in each parish to keep the registry, as he was generally an intelli gent man. He would be in constant intercourse with the collector, to whom he could refer in case of difficulty, and the collector would be able to refer, if necessary, to the Board. After a few words from Mr. PEASE, the clause was agreed to. On the next clause being put, Mr. FINCH asked what would be the probable expense of the registration ? Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was intended that the general register should he under the control of the commis sioners of taxes, and two or three clerks in addition to the present establishment would be necessary for that purpose. He did not anticipate that the annual expense of central re gistration would exceed 1,000/. per annum. The clause was then agreed to. Clauses 5 to 12 inclusive were severally amended and agreed to. Clause 13 having been put, Dr. LUSHINGTON said he wished to ask the hon. and learned promoter of the bill, how it was possible to re concile clause 11 with the clause now under consideration? There was nothing in this bill which could enable the re gistrar to ascertain the fact of either birth or death with positive accuracy. As the clauses stood, the foundation of the entry in the registry would be no better than hearsay evidence, and as such evidence could not be received in a court of law, it followed that a registry so conducted would be of no possible advantage. He had not been aware that it was intended to press this measure through during the present session, or he should have examined its provisions with greater care ; but in no point of view ought they to agree to this clause as it stood. He was now told that a clause was to be introduced to correct the defect to which he had alluded, and all he could say was, that in the fram ing of any such clause, great care should be taken to pro vide that the entry in the registry should only be made on the information of a party who had means of ascertainin g the fact stated, positively and beyond all doubt. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he felt the full force (": his hon. and learned friend's observation. The defeat w l ,;i c he pointed out was one wh i ch ought to be remed; e_„and d, and therefore he hoped th a t hi s h on. and learned fri'nd assist in framing such a c l ause as would meet #:ne diffi would difficulty to which he adverted. Sir R. PEEL said that in the case of births it would he extremely difficult, as they all knew, to obtain such infor- THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, JULY 3, 1834 motion as could be relied on ; and the same observation would apply to the case of deaths, though not perhaps with equal force. As far as related to the members of the Church of England •he was inclined to believe that the present system of registration would be preferred to that now proposed to be adopted in its place. The present system of registration kept up the spiritual connection which ought to subsist between the minister and his con gregation ; and for his (Sir R. Peel's) part he should object to any measure the tendency of which would be to discon tinue that connection. There was another point on which he thought the promoters of this bill were bound to furnish the house with some information, and that was as to the probable expense which would be incurred in carrying this measure into effect. Day after day committees of that house were employed in cutting down the public and local expenditure of the country, but how could the county rate or any other rate be reduced if bills of this description, im posing new burdens, were accumulated, as had been the case of late ? On principles of toleration the Protestant clergy should be suffered to keep the registries which they were now bound by law to keep, if they were willing to do so, and if the members of the Established Church were satisfied with the present mode of registration surely it would be unfair to fix new burdens upon them. He (Sir R. Peel) was convinced that the mode of registration proposed by this bill would not be half so satisfac tory to Protestants as that which existed ; and therefore, although he attached very great importance to a general registry of this nature, he must object to any measure which might have the tendency of undermining the regis tries kept by the clergy of the Church of England. He was satisfied, however, that no person belonging to the communion of that Church would avail themselves of the new law, even if it were enacted ; and therefore it would be as well at once to limit it to Dissenters, and other per sons who had no registries of their own. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BROUGHAM said that the bill was intended not only for the relief of Dissenters, but he might say of the whole community. When he introducd it, he stated that it was not meant to interfere with the registries kept in churches, or the fees consequent upon those registries pay able to the cl erg y. Thi s was apparent i n the first clause. There was no intention whatever to disturb the existing law relating to the registration of baptisms and burials ; on the contrary, the act of the 52d of George 111., under which such registries were kept, would remain in operation. Sir R. PEEL asked if it were proposed to make any alteration in the mode in which marriages were now re gistered ? Mr. BROUGHAM was understood to reply in the ne gative. At present there was no record of births and deaths, and the great object of this bill was to supply that defect, which was severely felt in cases of title and other proceedings in which reference to those events was made. He thought that such a record would be a great benefit to the community at large, and therefore hoped the committee would agree to the clause. Sir R. PEEL—Then it would seem that the statute of the 52d of Geo. 111. was to continue in operation, not withstanding this bill passed into a law. This fact in itself created an almost insurmountable difficulty. By the 52d of Geo. 111. the clergy of the Church of England were bound to produce the books in which the registries were to be kept, and that being the case, where was the necessity of this double expense ? But there was something, he must say, very anomalous in having two sets of registries. The registry of baptisms and burials was to be kept by one party, while that of births and deaths was to be kept by another, but would not such a system lead to endless com plexity? The person who made a search would have to consult two distinct authorities, and if those authorities happened to disagree, or did not tally exactly with each other, what would be the consequence ? In such a case, and it was one likely enough to happen, where would be the advantage of either registry ? Such a mode of regis tration would, to say the least of it, be a most cumbrous proceeding, and therefore, however willing he was to admit that there ought to be a record of births and deaths as well as of baptisms and burials, he could not give his assent to that which, even if adopted, could lead to no beneficial result. Mr. BARING observed that the whole merit of a re gistry of births would depend upon the fact of the child being named in the entry ; for without the name the entry would be unintelligible. What information, for instance, would an entry furnish which stated that Henry Thompson and Mary Ann, his wife, was born on such a day. The registry of birth and baptism must, to be worth anything, be contemporaneous acts. (Hear.) Mr. PEASE said that although he belonged to a body who would not give up the mode of registration which they had adopted for any other, he still thought that a correct record of births and deaths was desirable. The 17th clause would remove the difficulty which had been raised with re spect to the name of the child. Mr. GOULBURN said that a double registry was cal culated only to embarrass the investigations of titles. Evi dence of birth derived from one source and of baptism from another would involve titles in such difficulties that it would be impossible to get over them ; but if the registry was to be kept by the same party the objection to which he alluded might be got over. Mr. CARTER was understood to approve of the clause. Sir R. INGLIS said that he believed the members of the Church of England would prefer the system of regis tration now provided for than to any other that could be proposed. It might be very well to provide registries for those who required them, but certainly there was no occa sion for doing that which was wholly uncalled for. His right hon. friend (Sir R. Peel) had asked a question - re specting the expense which would be incurred in carrying this bill into effect ; and he (Sir R. Inglis) should like to have that question answered. Mr. E. DENISON was understood to say that he disap proved of the bill, and thought that even if it were adopted it could be of no possible advantage to the public. Lord J. RUSSEL stated, in reply, that the register to be proposed should not be in any way the same as that now kept in churches, but a sort of civil register for general pur poses of information, which he thought could not be better collected than through the means of the tax officers throughout the country. It had been asked how much such a system of registry would cost the country. He believed it might pretty confidently be estimated not to ex ceed 60,000/. or 70,000/. per annum. After a few observations from Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Hume, Mr. Finch, Mr. Verner, and Mr. Briscoe. The ATT()RNEY-GENERAL said that registration would be altogether useless unless it was done upon the authority of some one personally acquainted with the fact. He admitted that the present measure was imperfect in many respects, but still it was certainly a great improve ment upon the system that had hitherto prevailed. Lord ALTHORP made a few observations in support of the bill, which were generally inaudible in the gallery. Mr. WARBURTON was favourable to the general principle of the bill ; and as to the objections made to its impracticability, he would say that two years would be enough to carry it into full operation. Dr. LUSHINGTON liked the principle of registration, but he could not say that he was so favourable to the de tails and the minor registries pointed out in the present bill. They were calculated to lead to jealousies, disputes, and liti gation. He would prefer one large comprehensive measure. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was a friend to such a general measure ; but in the absence of that measure he would not cast away the advantages of the present with its particular registries, and even its imperfections. The citi zens of London availed themselves of the old inconvenient London Bridge until the new one was erected. The clause, after some conversation, was carried with some verbal amendments. On clause 14, respecting the registry of births, deaths, and marriages, being read, Dr. LUSHINGTON said that he thought a small fine would be a most desirable substitute for the pro posed punishment for concealment of births. (Hear.) Horrid cases occurred at present respecting the conceal ment of births, especially illegitimate ones. He knew of the case of a young lady of high rank who was confined at seven in the morning and appeared at her father's dinner table in the evening, in order to lull all suspicion of her condition. (Hear, hear.) An Hon. MEMBER thought there should be additional evidence of births besides those of the parents. Mr. BERNAL, though he did not like the bill as a whole, yet he would take it, in the hope that a better in time would be introduced. It was not practicable to get much evidence in cases of births, especially as regarded the poor ; and to require it indespensably would in some cases be attended with injury. The clause was agreed to with some verbal alterations. Several clauses were then agreed to. On the question that the first blank in the 17th clause be filled up with the words " five shillings" being proposed, Mr. ESTCOURT moved that the sum be reduced to half-a-crown. On this amendment the committee divided, when there appeared—__ _ For the amendment 55 Against it 73 Majority Clauses to No. 21 were carried with sundry amendments, and without any division. Clause 22 was postponed, in order to its being placed after fl ause 28, The clauses from 23 to 29, with some verbal amend rnents, were then agreed to. The other clauses of the bill were then agreed to, the house resumed, a n d th e re p or t was or d ere d to be tak e n i n t o consideration on Monday. CUSTOMS ACTS. Mr. P. THOMSON moved that the house resolve itself into committee on the Customs Acts. On the question that the Speaker leave the chair, Mr. LYALJ 4 objected to this, as he had an order of the day which stood previous to that of the right hon. gen tleman. A conversation arose as to the propriety of government orders having precedence on Wednesday, in which Mr. Hume, Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Robinson, and Mr. P. Thom son took part. The house ultimately resolved itself into committee. Mr. P. THOMSON said that at that hour of the night he would not take up the time of the house for more than a few minutes. He thought that it would be more conve nient if he, on that occasion, simply stated what was the subject matter of his resolutions, and if those resolutions were agreed to it would be his duty to bring in a bill founded on them, and it would be better to take the dis cussion at one of the stages of the bill than go at any length into the subject at present. He proposed in the present stage simply to state the nature of two or three resolutions which he had to propose, and on which a bill would be founded, and also to state some other resolutions imposing a change of duty on certain articles. It was very well known to many hon. gentlemen that last year the question of the duties on dried fruits was brought under the consi deration of the house by his hon. friend the member for the city of London (Mr. Grote). His hon. friend made a mo tion for the reduction of the duty on currants. He (Mr. P. Thomson had opposed the motion in the first place in consequence of the state of the revenue, and because he knew that his noble friend (Lord Althorp) could not spare a portion of income equivalent to the duty on currants, and also because he thought that it was inexpedient to take up a single case, as he felt that if they reduced the duty on currants they must make a correspond ing reduction of duty on other fruits. He had told his honourable friend (Mr. Grote) at the time that it would be his (Mr. Poulett Thomson's) duty, at as early a period as possible to propose reductions in the duties on the articles in question. It was therefore with the greatest pleasure that he was able to inform the Com mittee that he was able to propose a reduction of the duty of currants to the amount of one half now paid. (Hear.) And joined to this resolution he should propose a reduction in proportion in the rated duty to an ad valorem duty on raisins, prunes, and other dried fruits imported into this country. (Hear.) Besides this, he had to state that one of the resolutions which he had to propose applied to an article the reduction of the duty on which had been much pressed on his Majesty's Government, and indeed there was then a motion in the book to that effect by his noble friend the member for Yorkshire : he (Mr. Thomson) meant the duty on olive oil. Every hon. gentleman at all acquainted with the manufactures of the country knew that olive oil was an article of great importance, and was much used in connection with machinery. He need hardly say that it was in conformity with his principles that they should have it at as cheap a rate as possible. It was clear also that he could not reduce the duty on this article with out making a corresponding reduction on articles of a simi lar description. He therefore accompanied his proposition for the reduction of the duty on olive oil with one for the reduction of the duty on cocoa-nut oil and palm oil. It had been pressed on him to take the duty off this article alto gether, and his own feelings would induce him to afford the manufacturer the raw material at as cheap a rate as possible. In the first place, however, they had to consider the amount of revenue which his noble friend could allow to be reduced ; and secondly, that it was not right to take off the duty on this one article without taking off the duty on similar articles, which would involve such a sacri fice of revenue as it would not, under present circumstances, be desirable to make. He thought, then, that by reducing the duty one half he should confer a great benefit on the manufacturers of the country. (Hear, hear.) He had also to state to the house that if the resolution for this reduction were made, it was intended in a bill that he should have to propose that the duty on olive oil should not be taken off with regard to that article when it was the produce of the Two Sicilies, unless his Majesty, by an order in council, directed that it should be done. By this clause he would reserve to the King in council the right of reducing the duty on the article coming from this part of the Continent when he thought it expedient to do so. There had been for some time negotiations going on between the two Go vernments as to a greater commercial intercourse between this country and the Two Sicilies, and he was sorry to have to state that he did not find that there was a disposi tion on the part .of the Sicilian Government to remove restrictions on our commerce, or to impose reasonable duties. He thought that this country had reason to com plain of such treatment. Therefore he did not feel it to be his duty to recommend to the house immediately to re duce the duty of articies arriving from that country. At the same time he was prepared to admit the principle that the interest of the consumer should be looked to in our com merce with foreign countries ; but he still thought that it was expedient under particular circumstances that there should be such a power in the hands of Government as he proposed. There were some more articles on which he intended to propose a reduction in the amount of duty, on certain articles which did not to any considerable extent involve a question of revenue. The articles he alluded to were the produce of our West India Colonies. He need hardly say that he thought it most desirable to reduce as low as consistently could be done the duties on articles from these countries, but in consequence of the reductions he had proposed on many articles from these countries, not much remained for him to do. The chief articles on which he proposed to reduce the duty were plantains, liqueurs, pickles, pimento, and matting. It might appear to many hon. gentlemen that the articles the duty on which he pro posed to reduce were trifling in importance. This he did not think was the case. The fact was , however, that with the limited sum which his noble friend (Lord Althorp) could sacrifice for this purpose, he (Mr. P. Thomson) was forced to make reductions on those articles by which the greatest good could be done, and of course he was limited in the amount of the reductions when he endeavoured to extend the benefit over the greatest surface. The apparent sacrifice from the reduction of the duty would be 150,000/., although from the increased consumption he did not think that the loss would be so great ; yet he made an allowance to that amount. V He begged hon. gentlemen not to suppose, because some of the articles on which he proposed reduction of duty were ap parently of trifling importance, because they were hardly known to them by name, that it was not worth while to reduce the duty on them ; on the contrary, he could state that the reduction of duty would be of very great benefit. He could refer on this point with great pleasure to what had been done within the last two years ; but at that late hour he would not trouble the committee at any length with going into details. He could not, however, abstain from mentioning some striking instances of the advantages that had resulted from the reduction of duty—sometimes almost prohibitory—on certain articles probably scarcely known to many hon. members, and showing how much the consump tion had increased in consequence of such reduction, and also the great benefits which had resulted to the commercial classes generally since this change. He hoped the com mittee would permit him for a few minutes to allude to the beneficial change that had taken place in consequence of the reduction in articles in 1831 and 1832, and this would show how much might be done by a judicious reduction of duties. In 1831 he was much taunted in consequence of the long list of articles on which he proposed to lower the duties, and a great many of them Were stated to be merely medical drugs. Hon. gentlemen, however, forgot that many of these were mixed up with the manufactures of the country. He was asked how he imagined that he should be able to afford relief by merely reducing the duty a halfpenny a pound on some drugs. Several of these small articles, however, which apparently were of no sort of con sequence, were of essential importance. _ Some of them were very bulky, and it would not be worth while to import them unless the duty was low. The first article he would take would be boracic acid, which was now greatly used in the manufactures of the country. He had reduced the duty on this article and borax in 1832. In 1831 the amount :-- Imported was 300,0001b5., butin 1832 the duty was reduced from 4d. per lb. to 4s. a cwt., or 11-12ths of the amount. There was a comparatively trifling sacrifice of revenue,while the consumption increased to 775,0001b5..in the following year. The next article he took would be zaffre, also in great use in our manufactures. The duty was formerly one penny per pound, but he had made it one shilling per cwt. The consumption had risen almost at once 329,0001b5. In the article of quicksilver, an article of great importance, from the various beneficial uses to which it was applied in this country, he had made a reduction in the duty from 6d. to a penny, and the consequence of that reduction was that the consumption of the'article hadlincreased from 100,0001bs. to 260,0001b5. In bitter almonds, in which a considerable reduction had been made in the duty, there was an increase of consumption from 2,000 cwt. to 8,000 cwt., and this rise took place almost at once. On cocoa-nut oil the duty was reduced from 6d. per lb. to 2d. per lb., and the consump tion rose from 500,0001b5. to 1,268,0001b5. in one year, without any loss to the revenue. On the whole, the sum of all the duties reduced was about five-sixths on the average, while the loss to the revenue was not one half. Hon. gentleman might turn up their noses at these trifling reductions, but they should recollect that, small as they were, they had a great effect in giving an impulse to the trade of the country, and in encouraging new channels for industry that were never thought of before, to the great be nefit of the general interests of the country. He had thus stated the principal reductions which he proposed in the duties on the several articles he intended to introduce into his resolutions, but there was one other article on which he intended to do away with the duty altogether ; he meant the article of coals. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Warburton) shook his head, he supposed be cause he had on a former occasion propliesien that there would not be any coal left in the country in 1,500 years. (A laugh.) But he (Mr. P. Thomson) did not anticipate any such want, although the trade should be thrown open. Ho considered that taking 4 the duty on coals would be a great advantage to the shipping interests of this country, because British vessels would have the alinost exclusive benefit of the export trade, for it was not his intention to remove the discriminating duties on this article as regarded British ships. He was the more disposed to dispense with the duty on this article, because the reduced duty of 2s. that had been put upon small coal had entirely-failed to produce the benefits that were expected from it, for, in 1830, under the larger duties, the export was 240,000 tons, and now the export was only 23.5,000 tons. The same was the case with round coal, although the duty had been re duced one-half. There was another object which the reso lutions embraced to which he had not as yet alluded. He meant the reduction of duty on the importation of foreign books. The duty as it at present stood was 5/. per cwt., and this he proposed reducing to 21. 10s. per cwt. In the bill which he intended to found upon the resolutions which he should propose to the committee he meant to introduce a clause of regulation and rectification as referring to the bill of last year. In making these statements he hoped he should not be accused of taking the house by surprise, and more particularly as respected the power which he meant to propose should be given to the Lords of the Treasury, of permitting the establishment of warehouses for bonding in inland towns. This measure he anticipated would have a great effect in preventing the practice of smuggling. (Hear, hear.) He should not now go more fully into the subject, but should propose his resolution to the committee. The CHAIRMAN having read the resolution expres sive of the opinion of the committee that it was expedient to make the reductions proposed in the duties on the various articles named, Mr. ROBINSON said that he concurred generally in the propriety of the reductions proposed by the right hon. gentleman, and particularly in the duty on currants, a re duction which he himself had long since suggested. He felt quite certain that the revenue would not suffer by those reductions, but would rather derive benefit from them. He did not, however, approve of giving any advantage to the productions of the Sicilies. He rather thought that encou ragement should be given to the growth of our own Colo nies. He could still point out to the right hon. gentleman fifty trifling articles the duties on which did not produce to the revenue more than 40,000/., yet the increased consump tion of which, if these duties were taken off, would be of great service to various branches of our home manufactures. He hoped the fight hon. gentleman would . look to these, and carry out still farther the principle of reduction which he was so creditably pursuing. Mr. WARBURTO N expressed his satisfaction at the reduction of duties which the right hon. gentleman had proposed, except that upon coals. The c oun t r y t o w hi c h the coal might be exported would alone have all the advan tage of the reduction. The quantity of coals consumed in our manufactures was great, and if the duty were taken off, the manufactures of other countries would have the advan tage of getting coals on the same terms that we had them, except the mere cost of carriage. It was well known that the price of coals had greatly increased in this country within the last forty years, and he did not think that there could at any time be a supply greater than the demand at home. He disapproved of this part of the right hon. gen tleman's plan of reduction, but he fully concurred in all the rest. Lord ALTHORP said that the object of the reduction of the duty on coal was to relieve as much as possible the producers of the article, who were known to be in a state of great distress. Alderman THOMPSON wished to know if foreign ships were to have the same advantage as the carriers of coals with British ships ? Mr. P. THOMSON said certainly not. There was to be a much heavier tonnage duty on foreign ships than on British vessels. Lord MORPETH was glad to find that there was a reduction to be made in the duty on olive oil, as it was an article so much used in the woollen and soap manufactures of the country. He hoped there would also be a reduction made in the duty on Russian tallow. Mr. GROTE regretted that no reduction was made in the duty on barilla. It was an article of the utmost im portance, and if the duties were continued at their present height it would cease to be imported at all. There was not this year one-half the quantity imported that there was in the last year. Mr. G. F. YOUNG approved of the reductions pro posed, and thought that the shipping interest would derive peculiar benefit from taking off the duty on coals. He feared, however, that Holland would not reciprocate this advantage with us, and in that case a duty would be laid on our exported coal in that country, and the Dutch Exchequer would have all the advantage. He did not ap prove of bringing forward the subject of bonding in inland towns at this late period of the session. Lord SANDON approved of the proposed reductions, and hoped that the right hon. gentleman would pursue his plan so as to facilitate the introduction of coals from this country into France. Mr. BROTHERTON was favourable to the reduc tions suggested, and he particularly approved of the bond ing system for inland towns. Colonel TORRENS fully agreed that the exportation of coals would be exceedingly injurious to the manufac turers of this country. Sir M. W. RIDLEY was fully prepared to expect op position to any plan which would encourage the exportation of coals from the friends of the manufacturers. Coals, however, could be had from Russia, Prussia, Holland, and France, and therefore if it was wished to supply the fo reign markets from this country the duty must be reduced. Major HANDLEY and Mr. A. CHAPMAN expressed their approbation of the resolutions which the right hon. gentle man had proposed. Mr. HILL thought that so important a subject as that of allowing the bonding system in the seaport towns should not be brought forward at that late period of the session. Mr. PEASE disapproved of the reduction of the duty on coals. It would only be taking the money out of the pocket of the coalowner to put it into that of the shipowner. Mr. HUME hoped that the right hon. gentleman would lay before the house a schedule of the reductions and alterations he proposed making in these duties. He thought the reduction of the duty proposed to be made on coals ex- ported would be advantageous. After a few words from Mr. RUTHVEN, The several resolutions were agreed to, and the house having resumed, the report was ordered to be received on Friday. MERCHANT SEAMEN'S REGISTRATION BILL. Mr. LYALL moved that the house should resolve itself into Committee on the Merchant Seamen's Regis tration Bill. Mr. ROBINSON proposed as an instruction to the committee that the sum of 20,0001. of the revenues to be collected under this bill should be applied in aid of the fund for supporting the Merchant Seamen's Hospital in the River Thames. Mr. HUME seconded and supported the motion. Mr. HODGSON hoped his hon. friend the member for London would not agree to any such proposition. Mr. E WART said that he should oppose the instruc tion. Mr. ROBINSON was willing to adopt any course the house wished respecting the motion he had submitted. (Cries of " Withdraw, withdraw.") After a few words from Sir M. W. RIDLEY, Mr. ROBIN SON withdrew his motion. The house then resolved itself into committee on the bill. The several clauses were agreed to as verbally amended. The house then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday. UNIVERSITIES ADMISSION BILL. Mr. G. W. WOOD moved the Order of the Day for going into committee on the Universities Admission Bill. He desired only that the bill should pass through the emu- mittee pro forma, in order that it and the amendments which had been made in it might be printed. Sir G. MURRAY said, that before the house agreed to the hon. gentleman's motion, he wished to make a few ob- servations with respect to this highly important measure. He was as desirous as any one could be to see the grievances which pressed upon any portion of his Majesty's subjects on account of their religious feelings removed, and in proof of this he had only to say that he had supported the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, and lent his humble assistance conscientiously and zealously to relieve the Ro man Catholics from the disabilities under which they laboured. (Hear.) Religious toleration was the principle on which he always wished to act, and to show that these had always been his sentiments, he had only to refer to the efforts he had made while holding_ the office of Colonial Secretary, to throw open a College that was founded at York, .in _ Upper Canada, on exclusive prin- ciples, and to establish One at Montreal to which persons of all religious denominations should be admissible. The difficulty he felt with respect to the present bill did not rest upon the admission of this principle, but was founded rather upon the impracticability of its application in the case of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge; and what he thought the hon. gentleman failed in chiefly was in showing how it could be practicably applied in reference to these institu- tions. As far as he had been able to consider this measure he thought it indefinite and contradictory, and what he de sired was that the Government should take the subject into their own hands, and adopt as the bases of any measure they might think fit to bring forward the principles laid down in the petitions which had been presented from certain members of the University of Cambridge by the Premier and the present Secretary for the Colonies in the month of March last. He e n ti re l y concurre d in the views enter tained by these petiti oners , b u t s till he did not see how it would be possible to conduct the universities upon the prin ciple of this bill, unless all religious instruction were ex cluded. The universities in Scotland were very differently circumstanced, as residence was not required ; but s u re ly when the s t u d en t s were o bliged to reside within a university religious instruction should form an indispensable, ingredient in the course . of education. (Hear, hear.) Another (it culty which he felt regarded the granting of degrees. It, a Dissenter hi mse lf, b e i ng a member of the Church o f Sew land he should be glad that the honour or reward to which st'' perior knowledge and industry entitled persons was granted ti / t all without any religious distinction ; but then he did 11° see how this co u ld b e d one, unless they at the same time gave to dissenters a p ower i n t h e universities to w hi c h be thought they had no manner of right, and from which were, in his opinion, justly excluded. (Hear, hear.) l i l c a power he argued s h ou ld on l y b e enjoyed by. members o f the established reli g i on ; an d, t h ere f ore, however glad herak b be to see degrees granted to dissenters, he should not 1 0 4 them to posse ss any contro l over the universit i es. ' though the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for the lonies supported thi s bill, he did not seem to assent to thj / principle. But whether that was so or not, he (Sir Murray) wished to see the matter taken up as a GoveT ment measure, and d ea lt with on'the same principles as t e Roman Catholic Relief Bill. If t h at course were purss h eu e the matter would b e d e lib erate d upon and s if te d by t Cabinet ; and un til thi s was d one h e did not b e li eve , b°ie ever they might m o dify it, th a t i t wou ld b e acceptable ,0 the country. (Hear.) The LORD ADVOCATE said that he heard with aiP tress and mortification the sentiments which had been e b r t pressed by the right hon. and gallant baronet. The rif i g hon. and gallant baronet said he wo u ld su pp or t a ' to founded up on the principles put forward in th e p e titions I , which he r e f erre d ; b ut he (the Lord Advocate) would ssh; where was th e diff erence b etween those principles an d t principles upon which this bill was founded ? (Hear, iten r i i It was their duty as Scotchmen, as. dissenters—for su e they were—to support this measure. Sir G. MURRAY desired that so important a sior should be taken up by the government and not left to st i individual member of that house. Mr. RUTH VEN expressed surprise that such a disc ° sien should have taken place at such an hour, and reel mended that th e y s h ou ld move t h at the candles be put 011 in order that they might proceed by daylight by way of riety with the public business. (Laughter.) The house then resolved itself into committee. Mr. G. WARD proposed that certain verbal ame nd ' ments be made in the clauses. The SPEAKER said that before the amendments Prf; posed by the hon. gen tl eman b e hi n d hi m were put t o the house, and as be would have no other opportunity of e r t pressing the sentiments which he entertained with resPe c to this measure, he hoped they would, late as the hour wa s ' favour him for a very short time with their attention. (Hear, hear.) The observations he had to make had n ° reference whatever to the amendments which the hon. gem tleman had proposed ; with respect to those amendine fi l , : therefore, he would give th e comm i ttee no trouble. -P,:e objection, he must fairly conf ess , was to the principle of t's bill, and he knew not how that principle could be carrie into effect without leaving his objection unaltered and in r alterable. (Cheers.) The principle if adopted 'would b e ' he was satisfied, destructive to both the universities as tbeY now stood, and useless, as far as any good purpose was CO cerned, to the Dissenters themselves. (Cheers.) Ire to not believe that any a lt era ti ons w hi c h m i g h t b e ma d e in t" .. , bill by the co m mitt ee cou ld ren d er i t effective, and be IrLw r quite sure that if suc h a. measure were adopted, no matt; how its provisions were mo difi e d , i t wou ld comp l e te . destroy the present s y s t em upon w hi c h t h e two un i vers ine , were conducted, and introduce into them an utter religit i , indifference, together with constant and acrimonious relig; ous differences. (Cheers.) With th ese f ee li ngs t h e boo would not be surprised that he entertained the most um conquerable objections to the bill ; and that being the cas e' he would not be dischar g i ng th e d u t y h e owe d to the l ear ned body he had the honour t o re p resen t, h e wou ld not be do; charging the duty he owed to hi mse lf as a mem b er of that house, if he did not avail himself of the only opporl he was likely to have, as som e p ersons m i g h t per h aps thi f of committing an act of imprudence, but as he thought stating manfully the feelings with w hi c h h e cou ld no t he'p. regarding this measure. (L o ud c h eers .) H a d h e no t oat, this declaration he should no t h ave p er f orme d t h e which he owed eithe r t o th e U n i vers ity o f Cambridge at; himself ; and if he did not believe 'that it would be inle t sible to adopt the principle of this measure, he wo uld 11° have trespassed at that late hour by stating what his con' scientious judgment on this subject was. The right gentleman thanked the house for the attention which th e ' had paid him, and sat down amidst loud eheers. , After a few words' from Colonel WILLIAMS, 14 ' clauses with the amendments were agreed to, and the hous e having resumed, the report was ordered to be received to' morrow (this day). Mr. POULTER moved the order of the day for bring' ing up the report of the Lord's Day (No. 2) Bill. ,„ Mr. WARBURTON o bj ec t e d t o t h e motion, on the ground that the bill should be re-printed and re-committe d After some conversation, in which several hon. gentlemen took part, the house divided. The numbers were— • For bringing up the report Against it Majority —23 The report was then brought up, and ordered to be take into consideration on Monday. 130 1 The second readi ng o f th e I mpr i sonment for Debt - was postponed until this day. The SPEAKER was proceeding with the orders of the day, when— Mr. F. O'CONNOR moved that the house be counted' The gallery was cleared, and there not being forty met' bers present, th e h ouse a dj ourne d at h a lf- past f our o'eloc AMUSING ANECDOTES. Many of our young military officers are most wo nder ,, ' fully well-inf orme d ; per f ect orac l es i n their way ! v711°.5- ~ decisions a re sans appe ll. I recent l y w i tnessed a v e 4 ", comic " Qui-pr oquo .' The amiable Frau V on B---- 1 "" reading a verse of Dante from an admirable translation' one of the most fashi ona bl e warr i ors i n t h e sa l on d eman d' , the name of the author. The lady answered, "My belovet Dante." "Is it p oss ibl e ," cr i e d t h e son o f M ars, with astonishment ; " I never cou ld h ave b e li eve d that Yuti.,. Tante (aunt) was equal to such a composition." The errors of the old warriors are sometimes even more ridiculous!, and their blunders are an endless source of merriment. Wi le ' the present President of Columbia was in Berlin, about tit° . years since, I ac c id en t a ll y over h ear d a conversat i on b etw ee him and a Prussian officer ; instead of German it was Ca r- a tied on in h or ribly b a d F renc h. A p i cture o f a b att l e le them to spe a k o f th e ce l e b ra t e d one o f W ater l oo. " M°st certainly," exclaimed Santander, "at that great battle' without the assistance of your immortal hero, Platoff, 141 v poleon would not have b een conquere d !" Th e P rus sit' i ll general smiled, politely rec tifi e d hi s m i sta k e, and cont i nu e' saying, " But your campaigns are not less remarkable ; foriu # stance, what a march was that of Bolivar to Mexico and half" across the Tschimborasso—the short time in which 1 ; was effected is scarcely credible !" " I beg pardon , said Santander, i n hi s t urn , h a lf sm ili ng ; " you h ave mad° an error in some th o u san d s o f m il es , f or B o li var was nee , '. engaged in war in Mexico ; th ere f ore h e cou ld never hav,° come in collision with the T sc hi m b orasso . N otw i t h s t a o°, ing, our marches are really as t on i s hi ng ; i n f act, our me thoo of conducting war is entirely different from the Europos tl mode ; our soldier s are a bl e to support themselves f°rr , months without bread, meat, or spirits, living entirely ° a i dried ox-skins and water." " Comment! Monsieur!" cu e d our general, in an inimitable jargon, and with a voice an manner expressive of the greatest astonishment,—" COO; ment! pas de bain, pas de poissons spirituel: Q pas n l6lll- ( 1 de 1' eau forte !" It required all my powers of self-commas to preserve my ch arac t er f or po li teness, w h en Monsie°.r Santandar, not appearing to observe the errors of P I friend, replied, with an air of the most important grog:, " Non : rien de spirituel, monsieur, pas memo de lea forte !"—Prince Pucklcr Muskau's Tutu Frutti. The noble authoress of " Flirtation" is again abou t to gratify the public with a new wo r k o f fi c ti on , to b e c allS " The Disinherited." Her ladyship k nows more o f t h e gre" world than perhaps any living writer, whilst her high 'imellef A tual endowments justly pl ace h er among th e most d ist in gu isb` - novelists of the day. On the publication of some former v v lumes by Lady Charlotte Bury, his late Majesty George I„ said in an autog ra ph l etter ,• t h at " t h e y conta i ne d t h e most all tided evidence of refined intellect and high breeding which had ever seen in an? production of the kind."—Ag e. BIRTHS. On the Ist inst., in Great Russell-street, Bedford-square, *rot William Kaye, of a daughter. On the Ist inst., Mrs. T. Hewlett, of Harrow, of a son, wh ich survived its birth but a few hours. .13 On the 94 inst., at Downhill's, Tottenham, the lady of J. Haynes, Esq., - of a son. MARRIAGES. .1. On the Ist inst., at H am bledon, Bu c k s , b y t h e R ev . v ,-. . t o Ridley, the Rev. W. M. K. Bradford, Rector of Hambledom Mary, eldest daughter of the late Rev. H. C. Ridley. On the Ist inst., at St. Giles's, Camb erwe ll, E. Browne,to M. Russ, daugter of W. Pugh, Esq., of the Old Kent-roaa.j, On the 2d inst., at St. Pancras Church, by the Rev. to Judkin, M.A., Edward T. Teale, Esq., of Leeds, solicitor, 8, Eliza, eldest daughte r o f W . E ssex, E sq., o f U pper Wohurz' DEATHS: On the Ist inst., Isaac Smith, Esq., of Osnaburgh-tern', Regent's Park, a ge d 83 years. et On the 31st of May, Mr. H. Parkes Skidmore, nail-ironroo e g Delph, neat Stourbridge. On the 2Jth ult., of the Rectory-house, Off or d Cl un y, °— the ev. E. Edwars, n his 7th ear. ..." R the 22d inst., at i Chelte B nha y m, Elizabeth, wife of the ge l H. S. Beresford and daughter of Archibald Hamilton, Esq . ' Killyleagh Castle, in the county of Down, Ireland. of On the 30th ult., Mary, the beloved wife of Mr. R. 13 e c ' the Poultry, in her 24th year. London : Printed and Published by MURDO YOVIVG► at The hn Mace, Ncr. 112, Stated hea d T Itnde Well fui v, don T B not q 'twix passe • L( S' a pply `, . . _ _ .. T feet be en tor in . i3asi; ril upper tleok, adapt O P arid T and eastl( betty, to th, and aow F 0 and 1 T r ir galle r fast _ .en T W earri q as had Curli Antly ever 3 Po Medi At hi iat IN At ti 1 3; ble26 to i, thos cone givit catic ef a 1 IC'