The Sun. — London, England, 1825-02-12 00:00:00

-be +ll7-Alit have added, to certain Newspapers. 'There was an iatense expectation throughout Ireland that Catholic Eman cipation was ultimately to , be effected by the labours of the Association. He traced to this feeling the enthusiastic sewn . nem with which the people contributed to the rent. If that ex pectation were crushed by tae present measure, the re-action would be dreadful. He did not mean to justify all.the pro ceedings of the Association, if indeed all he had heard were true ; but from his own inquiry he had learnt but little, and in spite of all he had heard or seen he was still very ignorant of the real nature of the Catholic Association. There were many others in the same state of ignozance with himself. Measures so important ought not to be passed without solve previous facts. He did not believe that the Association had done any 'harm in Ireland, though he feared it had retarded the. cause of -Emancipation in ,England. Where he could not justify the -conduct of the Association he would excuse it. When they • were few in number, and the subscriptions were trifling, they were taunted as not being the Representatives of the Catholic -Body; and now when their number had increased and their rent was large, they were accused of wishing to intimidate the Government into concessions. lle was of opinion that the As stniation ought to be left alone. It' it were put down by vio lenee great confusion would be created in Ireland. It was im possible that the Catholics could remain much longer in their present condition. They must either be reduced to the state of helots, or perhaps of extermination, or they must be admitted to an equality of privileges and rights with the rest of the comutunity. Whether Emancipation-were granted now, or at a liner period, sill it must be granted, or e thee country- would be • reduced to the most lamentable state ofaliaorder, rebellion, and ruin. Sir N. CO um-ICIEST said, that he had ,always been the advocate of Catholic Emancipation, yet as that measure was' _ deferred on satisfactory grounds, he felt it his du s ty, in the mean time, to vote for the proposition of the Right lion. Se cretary for Ireland. Allowing a great deal for popular &fens eacence, and the excited passions of a large assembly, still he could not overlook the systematic attempts of the Catholic Association to innate and disturb the country. They had formed themselves into a most tremendous tribunal, and had levied taxes by the most despotic agents. The Hon. Baronet read a letter from one of the agents of the Association to a Gentleman in the South of Ireland, who had persuaded his te nantry not to pay the rent. The letter-writer hoped this was not true, because if it were he should be obliged to declare his name and offence to the Catholic Association.—(Cries of hear !) —lle wished to see Ireland governed, not in this way, but by the medium of the laws. ,He never wished that Ireland should hold its tranquillity by so precarious a tenure as the will of a self constituted Association.—( Hear !)—The present tranquillity of that country be ascribed to other causes, to the judicious exer cise of the extraordinary powers entrusted to Government, to the impaoved condition of the people, and to the increased at tention paid to theinwants, aided by English capital, English habits, and English example —(H ear !)-As he did not believe that the Cailtolic Association furnished any such desirable as sistance, and as it outraged Protestant feeling without advanc ing Catholic EmancipatisT„, he should vote for . its suppression. Colonel DAVIES said that he was ready to admit cases might arise where strong measures like the present would be necessary and just. In any such emergency, if the Catho lic Association were brought within the limits of the neces sity, he would readily join in voting for new and severer laws, and for aiding, if it were necessary, such , laws bjenilte - power of the Government. But he did not belinve.srliia was now the cause, and he was convinced that thesmeasure now submitted to the House, instead of alayiag : .any - unquietaspirit in Ireland, would only inflanin and make -it more dangerous. Some part of the measure appeared to aim at the _Orange .Associations ; but when he considered who., the reputed framer of the Bill was, when he recollected that Noble Lord's (Lord Eldon) sagacity and known ?pinions he could not but suspect it to be done for the purpose of blinding the Catholics of Ire land. If these Orange Associations were put down, they would • start up in another way. The Bill was directed against So cieties which excluded any one or more religious sects. Sup pose the Orange Societies were put down, they would be opened as Clubs, to which all religions were eligible. But as all mem bers ultist be elected by ballonnone but Protestants would be cho sen. The Catholic Association might do the 'same, and so far the Bill would be a complete failure. As to the oaths to be taken, every one who was acquainted with the state of Ireland must know that the oaths were necessary, inasmuch as the Orange men were held by a stronger bond than that of hatred to the Catholics, and a wish to retain their usurped power. The troth was that the Bill struck at the Catholic Association alone, and the Orange Association.% would be left untouched. He was not the advocate of Catholic Emancipation, nor of the . Catholic Association, but wished to keep a neutral position.— It was beneath the dignity of Parliament to take notice of the speeches delivered in that Association. The Right Hon. Secretary had greatly overrated the Catholic rent, when he . stated it at 160,000/. per annum. It was evidently falling off until the violent intentions of Government were made known, - and then the feelings of the people were roused, and they in creased their subscriptions. Even now there were massy-parts of the country where not a shilling bad been contribated. Ile „.• did not believe that Ensanbittation, if granted, would do so .mach towards tranquilizing Ireland, as would a better and ;nore impartial administration of justice. The present measure would not assist to improve the administration of justice, but -would exasperate and insult the feelings of 'the Catholics, and he should therefore vote against it. Mr. DOGHERTY observed that it had been his lot more • than once to bear testimony to the opinion, that the:Catholic body had not so great an enemy asnire•Catholic Association ; and if he-had before airy doubt upon that point, the two speeches that the 1-loinse had heard would justify the observation. The Ga.lant Colonel who spike last had told them, that he had always been against the Catholic claims. but he sopportednhe'l aeCatholie Association. ellis . litiribitiable 'Velentl (for so he hoped -he might lie - permitted to call him) who had spoken 'E.:air lint one, the Member for Cork, bad stated that he had always supported the Catholic claims, .but at the same I titre he had said, that he should vote for putting down I the Catholic Association. He had never bad an opportunity • of givin:, , an opit:ion upon that great question Catholic Ernanci . patien. In that house no occasion had beenafforded to him, and cut of it he had carefully abstained from expressing his wishes, —wialen were most ardent in behalf of the Catholic cause. He sin , tet7 - dy hoped that no intemperate conduct on the part of the Ca • tholic body, no obstinate perseverance in a course that could not he tolerated, would prevent him from giving that vote, that he so n;:azh desired to give, which he always halved would be a bles sin,g to the country. He claimed no merit for this feeling;-it was that of every one of his Hon. Friends around him ; but this was not a question of feeling. Every one would much more m-i:lingly take the popular side of a question, anal therefore it was that upon this difficult, delicate, and momentous question, respected the opinions or those had come to the deter - minal.!on they had come to. Ife 'Was sorry that he had been led so much as he even had be'eti into what was called the Ca •tholic Question. It was beside the question a little ; but it was - .iro;mssible to approath'the measure before the House without - going fully as much as he had done into it. He thought that no one could ;Achy that the Association which was now existin ,, io Ireland . fiad been carrying on proceedings at variance with the An- alarm 'was now general amongst the PrOeeStants, and in his mind in was a just alarm. It was an -4-piehension existing amongst the Protestant body generally not particularly amongst the Orangemen ; but every sober, rational, and well regulated man, who viewd the subject with calmness, and without the feelings of "arty, considered this association as subversive of the best interests of Ireland. The Hon. Member then went en to state, that it was an undeniable fact, and well known to every person acquaLited with the his tory cf this country, that the political vice of the Irish nation consisted iatheir proneness to indulge in illegal conventions_ as the grand evil which afflicted England from time to time was the prupensity of the - people to. break oot into sudden and vio lent enpressions of their feelings. , In other words, convention waa the curse of Ireland, and a mob the evil most to be appre hended in England. He Would maintain that the object of the Catholic Association .was to overawe Parliament into conces sions or connivance, and that it - Was impossible there could exist any freedom of, sentiment or argument calculated to lead the louse to a wise - determination on the subject of Ireland, if it • was to be joist down by the daring efforts of the Catholic Asso ciation. No other delegated body that had preceded it had ever ventured to go to the same lengths as this hail done. The Hon. - Member for Northampton (Capt. Moberly) had said Ministers had offered no proof to the llouse, even of the existence of the Catholic Association. The speech of the Hon. Gentleman him self had proved it • for he had informed the Ilouse that he was present at one of their meetings. Ile likewise added, that he • h a d witnessed very little intemperance in ,their proceedings.— He could assure the lion Gent. that he had been extremely fortunate in witnessing anasaembly of that nature, which had been only in a small degree intemperate. Others had not keen equally. fortunate. lie had attentively watched the operations .df the Association, and read the publications, which professed to ide their organs,.and it would not be hazarding an inconsi derate assertion to say, that no body of men had ever joined in putting forth documents so inflammatory, otsoonuch calcUlated to excite the worst feelings and effects. What was the tendency of their famous p ro clamation' to the people of I re l an d , b ut to produce such consequences ? It had been called a positive good to the country ; he looked uPon it as its greateat.eyil _ an evil, for the existence of which they should not make them selves responsible. The Catholic leaders had established an AS3ociation ".To fright the Isle from its propr i ety. This they were said to have done,in pursuit of their privileges; but, he would ask, was •sio•li- conduct argun.ent, or - was it in timidation ? Such an Association would not be tolerated an in stant in this country ; it would be put down in a week. If such a body wou ld be dangerous in England, what must it be is Ireland, whtre irascibility and irritated political feeling were the characteristics of the population. One who knew the coon try and its inhabitants well had said, that there existed in Ireland a dense mass of population, ses.Seeiag feelings the most inflammable, ready to mount he scaffold. in defence of their prejudices, and always easily allured to join the cause of a foreign invader. This was not a mere abstract ptinciple; it was untbrtunately no longer a hypothetical case ; it had been submitted to proof in theonstance of the French inowion of Killaloe. The grounds assumed by the Catholic Association, and their invariable representions were, that they only sought an extension of the privileges of the Constitution to their body at large, and what they were pleased to call an equal distribu tion othjostice to persons of every creed and profession. 1f they seek for a just constitutional share of privilege, he ‘ was most anxious they should not be debarred from.it, but he was sure: they had no reason to complain of an unequal distribution of justice. He would assert, without fear of contradiction, that justice was measured out with an even hand in Ireland : rile Courts...were open alike to rich and poor, and without distinc- ' lion of religion or party. Two years ago the Roman Catholic Body had entrusted their petition to the hands of the Hon. Member for Wiachelsea (Mr. Brougham), and the Learned anal Eon. Gentlemon had thought it necessary to state to the House, that the petition which ho presented was one of mere general propositions, without actual details, and, in short, con- • taining every thing but facts. In the course of this very day the minutes.. of the evidence taken before the Committee of Irish Affairs last Session had been laid upon the table. An inquiry into the state of the administration of justice in Ireland formed a prominent feature in the report. Several witnesses had been examined upon this subject, men of respectable cha racter and competent information. The first witness was Mr. Itlackburne ' a gentleman of talent and the highest respecta bility, and his evidence went to establish, in the most satis factory manner, the equal administration of justice in Ire land. Mr. Bennet gave similar testimony. The next he should , mention was a gentleman of the most irreproachable character, and possessing opportunities for coming to a correct conclusion rarely enjoyed by an individual; he meant 'dr. Day, late one the Judges of his Majesty's Court of King's Bench in Ireland. This gentleman was of opinion that the body of the population in Ireland received equal justice, and were, in that respect, on a correspondent footing with the inhabitants of England. The con duct of petit Juries, he considered unexceptionable, as far as had come within his knowledge. These bodies were composed of .Protestants and Catholics indifferently. The (rand Juries were composed of Protestants only, and he called the attention of the Gallant Officer (Col. Davis) to this point more particularly, because in fact the Protestant gentry are far more numerous than the Catholic. To return to Mr. Day, - he declared it as conviction, that the consideration of religious distinctions never entered into the imaginations of juries, when called upon to the discharge of their functions, which he was persuaded they fulfilled faithfully. He was not aware of 4ny_ exception to this remark, which applied equally to every part`of Irel .nd. God grant ! (said the. Hon. Member) every J udge in that country may have it in his power cueXpresa a similar sentiment; but in his opinion they woold,hof, were the Catholic Association to be left in the undisturbed'exercise of its arrogated power. He could not admit that any reform in the mode of administering justice was necessary ; no case had been made out to that effect—if it were,' he would not accept the reform from such hands. If .justice required to be purified, that was not to be effected by a subscription. The Association have interfered with the adMini stration of justice, and erected themselves into a body for the purpose of directing prosecutions. They have, at this instant, promoted an action, which now stands tin trial against a most re ,spectable Protestant gentleman. The jury who woujelhavetratry the case would be in the proportion of 1(1 Catholica to?.' Protest ants. This action was, as he had said, raised by the Catholic Association and under their immediate sanction. The motto and principle of the Association iSas, " Whoever is not with us is against us. They were acting upon principles similar to those adopted by the Convention of 1791, which, as was stated in the report of the Irish House of Lords, had collected large funds, turd expended them in the defence of persons accused of political and other crimes. Under such circumstances, if the ASsOciation were not only constitutional, but strictly legal, the plea of legality could not be permitted to avail it, when it ar ror'ated powers so hostile to every principle of sound policy and sehoy. Ile had the authority of the Learned Gentleman op posite (the .Member for Winchelsea), on this subject, who had expressed 'similar seetiments in the case of the Consti utional Association. The conduct of the Convention of 1791 was trifling when compared with that of the Catholic Association in. the present day. What was to be thought if an assembly should sit from February to .luly, under the ostensible pretence of petitioning, and should do any thing and every thing but petition ? The levying of a tax to be applied to secret pur poses was the principal object of tile Association. It had been asserted that the cororibution was voluntary on the part of the Catholic population ; he took leave to dissent from that opi nion. It was a mistake to suppose the peasantry of Ireland had money disposable to such purposes. The contributions were not obtained till :the - powerful engine of the Catholic Church was brought to bear upon the feelings and prejudices of the people. Ile could not admit the propriety of permitting tire existence of two Houses of Parliament. The Catholic Asso ciation was a Parliament sitting from week to week. They did not adthit themselves to be the representatives of the people, that they might not come under the provisions of the Convention Act, but however. they might cloak or disguise the fact, they openly professed to be their virtual representatives. They stated theroselyes not the appointed but the adopted representation of toe Catholic body. If the Catholics were to have a representa . tive assembly, he would rather it were a regularly appointed and recognized one, which might be held accountable fur its acts, than such an association as the present. He was not of the opinion of Gentlemen who imagined this assembly ' 'to- - posseSs the entire Confidence/of the Catholic' Aasociation: A Roman Catholic Gentleman of tire greatest respectability (Mr. Dunn) had informed him, that through not a Member of the Association, Ire had acted upon a-Committee appointed for the collection of the rent, but withdrew himself on the institution of prosecutions by the Association, and expressed his strongest disapprobation to their measures. His ooinion was, that the Catholics disapprove of the acts of the Association, •Ile hoped in God they did ; for if they would e pot separate themselves front that body, they would be indefinitely postponing the con. summation of their wishes,„ The Association attempts to ex ercise a tyranny over the Catholic body, and he could very well understand the reason why persons of retired habits and reluctant to expose themselves to the violence /of the Associa tioo, should, in appearance, acquiesce in their measures. The Association lays claim to the tranquillization of Ireland. He was happy to say it was tranquil, but its tranquillity was en tirely awing to the wise, prudent, and temperate measures adopted by tire present Chief Governor of Ireland. Ile agreed; with the Honourable Member who said he would not owe the tranquillity of Ireland to any other power than the Government of the country. Ile certainly would not be indebted ibr it to an Association whose feelings were utterly hostile to the Con stitution. and whose admonitions to the people were, that "they, would find each field a redoubt, and every hill a tower of strepgth, and Ireland might shake off her enemies Like dew-drops from a lion's mane,'" It wag, not his wish to impute an actual desire. to theleaders of the Catholic Association to excite sedition or effect separation between the countries. They had doubtless said many things::' incautiously, and without any fixed purpose e led away, as they ;night have been, by tire excitement of popular enthusiasms anti applause. lie hoped, though the House. should think it necessary to put sdown the Association, there would exist no necessity to double the army, as had been asserted by Gen,. tiemen on the other side. He felt persuaded the Cadrolics would not attempt to oppose the determination of the house. It was not from the Catholic Peers, front ...such persons as , Lord , Kenmore and Earl Fingal, they were to expect oppositiopa The Hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. lt'illiams) had misconceived the intention of the Convention Act of 1793. That was an Act levelled not against the Catholics, but another and distinct body of persons. He thought he possessed a little more expel ience on the subject than the lion. Gentleman, and he felt convinced . the Roman Catholics would oiler no resistance, but submit to the of the House be it what it might. Gentlemen of the lion: Member's profession were in the habit of holding one pre cedent as better than many arguments, and the Catholics had .a precedent which he had no doubt they would follow in this in stanne. He alluded to the resolutions of the Irish House or Commons, relative to the volunteers in 1782. When tire vo lunteerssent in their proposition for reform in Parliament, they passed the celebrated resolutions to which lie adverted, on which Judge Day, who had been-himself one of the volunteers, thus expressed himself:—" The House, roused by tire eloquence of Mr. Velverton (the then Attorney-General), .startled fvorn its lethargy, and annihilated the-Convention." Tire -volunteers of that period were like many Catholics of the present day, net aware-of the ;;legality of theirseonduct. 'They received the re buke of the 'Luse with humility, and immediately disbanded. That the conduct of the House would be equally decisive on the present occasion, and the conduct of the Catholics similar to that of the volunteers in their submission to the authority of Parliament, he hoped and trusted, for the sake of the-well being and tranqinillization of Ireland. Mr. DOMINICK BROWNE was .of opinion •that .the distracted state of leeland had . been -always owing to the. circumstance that every man, Protestant as well as Catholic,, which itecontained, was placed in .4.1 wrong position._ It was : impossible that justice could be pure ; for either the Catholics or the Protestants must be More than men who did not suffer their religious feelings to influence thou in the Jury box. It was the law itself,and not the administration of the:low, which ought, t r be complained of; -stud until the-situation of the country was altered, and tine Catholic put in the same condition with the Protestant, the former would c onsider himself as belonging . to a degraded and oppress e d caste. Whatever might - be the . I other merits of the .Catholic Association, it Lad certainly united all the Catholics, not only of Ireland, but of Eng land; and if he were .a Catholic, he should say, that how ever they hail frightened the timid, and excited the alarm of the weak, they had done more for the furtherance of the Ca tholic Cause than had been done by any other means within the last twenty years. Ile was not prepared to say, that ab stractedly, this body was consonant to the spirit of the British Constitution.—(llear, hear!)—But when he looked at the pre sent false situation of Ireland, he would say that it was the smallest evil he could expect. There were other things in Ireland far from according with the spirit of the British Constitution. The Insurrection Act was not according to the spirit of the British Conatitution( Hear !)—the Whiteboy Act was not according to the spirit of the British Constitution —(Hear !)—a standing tinny of twenty thousand men was not according to the spirit of the British Constitution.- 7 ( Hear !) He did not mean to say that these acts -were unnecessary, or that the army should be withdrawn. He had always supported the Government when those measures were proposed, because he was Convinced that the situation of Ireland demanded them to avert greater evils. But he was not prepared to go. fUrther. If they still refused to grant the Catholics their just rights, he would go no further in abridging the liberties of the people. He was convinced that Catholic Emancipation never could be carried until it was brought forward as 0 5 Government measure, and to suppose that it could, had al- . ways appeared to hint to be a mere dreani. Ile objected to its being considered by the Government as a secondary and not a primary question. To him it appeared that the recognition of the South American States, or a good under-. standing with the Holy Alliance, were as nothing in compari son to the momentous importance of Catholic Emancipation. , The worst Government which Ireland could possibly have was the present divided one. Next to that he thought would be. one which was united against the claims of the Catholics. But the best of all would be a Government which would honestly come thrwaril and tell, this country that the people of Ireland must be admitted intoe the Constitution. Ile was ready to• admit that he believed the existence of the Catholic Associa tion to be fraught with some danger; but that danger would not be dimino•hed by the passing of the proposed act. He did not fear, like some, that the people were likely to be driven into •rebellion by it, but it' they were doomed to axoerience disappointment after disappointment, they must' eventually be driven to disaffection. And it should be remem bered that the people were not in the same state as fbr merly. They were now taught to read and to write, and they were gradually acquiring knowledge and riches, which must invariably carry with them no increase of power. If the- Government determined upon a system of coercion they could not stop at this Bill, but must in a few - years call on Parlia ment for. 4_ c,Alscrship of'tlie press, a perpetual Insurrection Act, and o em army of 811 or 100,M0 men. He -was not speak• tug of present danger, for lie believed all Ireland from the , highest to the lowest were at the present moment full of hope. Hut let the House take care that hope was not too long deferred. If the people of Ireland were too often and too long toidohan they were not fit for the British Constitution, they might begin to think the British Constitution not fit for them. For the reasons he had stated to the Haus* he should vote against die bringing in of this Bill. Mr. W. 11"II,LIAJIS looked on the Catholicoissociation as most inimical to the interests of the Ctoliolic Body.• .If it were the desire of the Association to defeat all hoPes of emancipa tion, they could not adopt surer means than the system which they pu-stied. The career of the Catholic Association was viewed with disapprobation by all thinking people in the king dom. It was a notorious fact, that religiousdiffrences and, religious aniniositiex pervaded eve:y . 6ms of persons in Ire- . land. There was no question with which those feelings did not interfere, and it was die interest, as it was the duty of the House, to do all that was possible to allay those animosities. Ile, therefore, would ask those Honourable Members who op posed this Bill Of the Bight Honourable Gentleman, if they did not contribute to cont , nue those animosities. It was on this ground that he meant to give his vote for the introduc tion of the Bill. It would at present become a most serious evil to give a triumph to the Catholic Association. Ile firmly believed that he was conferring a great and permanent benefit on the whole country when he gave his support to this measure. (The Honourable Member was here interrupted by a noise made in the passage, outside the gallery door, by strangers : some of whom were, by the command of the Speaker, taken into custody by tite Serjeant-at-Arms.) When the noise ceased, die lion. ,Ilember resumed and said, that at the present mo ment the. people of England were, to a man, determined to resist the Catholic cle.inis.(llear, hear!)—lie, for his part, reviewed the whole proceedings of the Catholic Board as cal, culated to do the moet lasting injury. Mr. DENNIS BROWNE supported the measure. He said till it was mentioned in that House he had never heard of either Protestants or Catholics carrying their religious preju dices into the Jury„box. Mr. I) )111 I N ICII It 1:0W N explained. . . 11r..iL , AARTIN wan perfectly ready to admit the state ments made by the Right Hon. Gentleman when ht brought, in the Ilia ; hut granting them all, he should feel it his duty not to give his consent to the Bill, as he was persuaded it would tail in its cifects.—The Hon. Baronet had formerly repudiated the claims of the Catholics. It would not advance the Catho lic claims, if die Members against it were out of the Cabinet. He should NAs for the motion. . , Mr. WA It 11 E should decidedly vote against the motion, as it ottld neither restore tranquillity to Ireland, nor preserve the' trariqUillity that ak ,pr - cent dwelt there. The state of Ireland required a different remedy. In the county of Tipperary, out of 497 committed under the Insurrection Act, 40 had been ac quitted. Should that A;sociation be put down, it would revive in another shape. That Association arose from the anomalous .state of Ireland, and wasrthe expression of the opinions of six people.. . Ile .recollccte4, the • language of the Fo reign Secretary, when he stated what had taken place, on the contentions with respect to the equal•priyilegeS Of all religioms„ By the constitution or Hollantrand Belgium no disqualifica tions took place froni'iliff . erence of creeds. In tills country we stood,Ktill; while all the would ras advancing in the career of toleration. He believed the Bill would tail, and would place the country in a worse state than it no ,a was. _ _ Mr. W. W NN admitted, that the present measure would not tranquillise Ireland, unless accompanied by the great mea sure of Entancipation.—( H ear, hear !) —He lamented the ex istence of the Association from the injury it bad done to the Catholic Cause. That great measure would take away the power cf doing mischief. But if that could not be obtained, he must assent to.nther measures for putting down the evil. If Protestant Association could address its Members by the hatred they bore to Catholics, what would be the feelings of the Catho lic.population ? He had , always been hostile to Orange Asso-, ciations, because, b,,sitles the evil they produced in themselves, they gave rise to such Associations as the present. Wherever these Associations obtained, the administration of the law could not be impartial, nor properly dispensed. ;Shat, at a firmer period, had been the case m Scotland, where a man, of the name of Stuart, expressed his astonishment that lie should have been acquitted by a Jury of Campbells. Ile would never have consented to an Act fbr putting down this individual Association . ; but the tnewure .before the House extended to all Soeieti,s. He trusted, -notwithstanding the predictions ,to the contrary, that the measure would lee eactual, as speaking the opinion of Parliament, and he trusted that the discussion of this and the former night would contribute - to that effect. The measure proceeded from the whole of the Cabinet. lie would at all times support the ques tion of Catholic Xmancipation, from whatever quarter it came.— (Cheering.) Mr.-CA ',CRAFT-said, that.till the Catholics obtained their rights, Ireland would experience similar visitations. lla.d not the ,last speaker staled that he was friendly to the Catholic Claims, he could not have believed it, when he saw the Right Honourable Gentleman a Member of that Cabinet, that, as a Cabinet, was decidedly hostile to the rights of the Catho lics.' 'The present Association arose from other and oppo site /Issociatiors,—(lfear, hear.!)—Redress the , grievances of the Catholics, anti those Associations would soon dis appear. lie hoped the Catholics would continue united, and would press legahy upon the . House and the country, till they obtained th e ir rights. He had never known an .in stance of a Bill being brought into prevent the loyal exercise of undoubted rights ; 'he believed there was a pretended alarm in Ireland, though the Government was made to believe the reverse. He was, therefore, agreeably surprised at the Speech Flom the Throne. Long before the Bill could be sent to Ireland, the Association would have disappeared, and would revive in another form. But to suppose the Catho lics would be prevented ,from meeting and collecting money , was a gross mistake. At the time of the King's visit to Ireland, the Catholics were the most loyal of-all. But what could have been ultimately expected when the King was accompanied by Lord Sidmauth on the one hand," and Lord Londondery on the •other " the bane and antidote." as what the one should propose in favour of the Catholics, would be opposed by the other. Much stress had been laid on the expression, `•By the h a t e you b ear t h e O rangemen ." That seemed strange to English ears; but the meaning was, the hatred you bear to tyr a n n y an d m i sru l e ;an d b y which they wer e forbidden to, join ill eg al soc i et i es. —"( Lau g hter 1) —N o one could doubt the corr u pti on o f the Irish Govvrnment u p to the Union. He felt it hi s d u t y to-oppose the Bill to the utm ost of his power, though not from -any partiality for such Asso ciations, wheth e r Catholic or Protestant. He denied that the Association had made the Catholic Claims more unpop u l a r than they were be fore. Vie reverse he believed to be the fact. The tranquillity of Ireland spoke for the Association. While the Association 'legally, • went on he would offer no interruption to, it. Tha amount of the B ent t h at was s o dangerous to the State, was 9,G(M., a much smaller sum than was collected tbr Bible And other Societies, to whom no blame was ever imputed. The Right Honourable Gentleman had stated the 'measure to be from the Cabinet. In .another place it bad been stated to have come from the Irish,cAbinet. Be was surprised at the temperate conduct of the Association. It had been stated as a matter of complaint of that Association, that thty were all of one mind. Ministers, indeed, were so fond of divisions, that they had them even :n the Cabinet, which was only kept together by the.fear of Gentlemen on his side of the House. 'Eke real remedy seas Emancipation. When "the non. Gentleman was appointed Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, he foresaw what would ensue, and particularly when coupled w:th the fact, that the Chancellor of Ireland went out of town, that he might not swear in the Lord Lieutenant. In a few years emancipation must be granted—the real remedy for all the grie, vances of Ireland. Mr. PLUNKETT had little to add s to what had been al ready stated on this subject ; he had never risen with so much pain, nor fslt so much apprehension 0,1 any question. Hearsay imputation - had been cast upon the measures from persons of the highest authority and sincerity. lie hoped it would appear that the meaauresdid not injuriously atTect the Catholic ques tion. The safety of the state made the adoption of the mea sure imperative. The operation of the measure was not con fined to Catholics but to all societies. This, too, was coupled with a recommendation from the Throne to take into considera tion,the state oflreland.—Thus coupled, he could see no ob jection to the measure front any friend to the Cathclic• Claims. He (Mr. P.) believed Ireland was then in a state of the greatest prosperity, and had shared in the general prosperity of the country. by the wise measures of the Nobleman at the head of the .Irish Government. Ireland had been wrecked on the breakers when that Nietle Lord undertook the Government; by him the vessel had been righted, and made to partake in the general prosperity. (Cheers.) —He could rot be lieve, as had been stated, that the public tranquillity was due to the efihrts of the Association ; for tranquillity had been previously restored. Much was owing to the peace and loyalty inculcated by the Catholic Priests, often a much ca lumniated class of men. Ile never recollected so much politi cal excitation in Ireland, and much alarm prevailed among the inhabitants, though much greater than was warranted, anti in many places artificially raised. Ile wished to Heaven the Catholic question could be granted ; but it' that could not be granted, what was to be the consequence? Was the refusal to be reaisted or to he submitted to ? Such an alternative called -for the attention of Parliament, and of the friends as well as enemies of the measure.—( Hear !)—The Catholic Association was alifferent from all others. It was not con fined to the Catholic question, but was extended to Parliamen tary Reform, the repeal of the Union, the adjustment of Church property, and an interference in all the Courts of Justice, front .the highest to the lowest. This body had associated them selves the Delegates of 1791, most of the Catholic Nobility and Clergy, and had Committees in all parts•of the kingdom. se-There were 12 surveyors of the rent in the 25,000, Catholic parishes of Ireland. There was an army of 30,000 collectors, aided by 2,500 parish priests. This he ad'nitted was illegal, elite they had no need .of applying to Parliament. But he con tended That such associations were contrary to the spirit of the Costitution. When such• a hotly acted as a representative body, it was an encroachment upon the privileges of 'the .Com- MMIS, and was incompatible with the safety of the State. The physical power of the country was called out by the Association. Such a state.of things no Government could permit ; or, if they did, it would be a gross abandonment of their duty.—( Hear !) —Could the Government allow such a mass of , physical power to he wielded by individuals ? These men were accountable to none, and possessed of no responsibility. The Associat on was both an executive and deliberative body, without that re sponsibility which the Constitution required. What would become of the Constitution, if the house of Commons could assemble at pleasure, and sit as long as they chose? Yet here was a body exercising the same power, and sitting from one end of tile year to The other. The Association interfered in the administration of justice, and acted as the Grand Inquest of the people of Ireland. The Courts of Justice would thus become arenas for angry passions, and the purposes of justice would be defeated. Were the Protestants of Ireland to remain uncon cerneel spectators ? Must they not form themselves into oppo site Associations ? Ile believed the Catholics to be perfect'r loyal, but they were under the controul of their Leaders, nor were even the Leaders their own masters, but might be thrown over that precipice, on the brink of which they meant to have stopped.—( hear, hear !I—The house was called upon to legislate in the spirit of the Constitution, and upon the prin cipal of the safety of the State. He was of opinion that Catho, lie emancipation was a claim of strict justice, and the longer it was delayed it was the worse for the country.—(Che'ers.)--IVas it because emancipation was not to be obtained they were jus lied in resorting to other measures ? He entreated that if, in the coerse of his observations, any thing severe against them should escape him, lie hoped it would be recollected that he was himself then upon his trial, and in his own defence it be cause necessary that he should put them upon their trial at the same time. In 1013 lie had come forward as • a zealous advocate for the claims cf the Catholics, and had in that Session made a speech front which several quotations had been made the preceding 'evening . to !thew that he at that period condemned the conduct of the Government.—(Hear!)—lle then thought that he could not honourably join the administration.—(lfear !) • He had since then changed his opinion.—( hood cries of Ilear ! from the Opposition.)—He stated the charge against himself without extenuation.—(Cries of Hear!)—]hit the fact was, that circumstances had changed, lie had to ask portion of his Right lion. Friend (.fir. Canning) though he was not then a Member - of the Government.— (Loud. laughter and eheers.)—At that time: the ; Lord Ellenborough, with the Chancellor and others, were so decidedly against the measure, that he despair ed of its success ; but he subsequently found that even in that session it did make away, and subsequently made a triumphant progress through the House, although rejected in the Lord;. — He had entered that Houae.under no. particular •influence, and and although continually acting with some of those whom he was still proud to call his lion. Friends ; yet, on several occa sions, and some - important ones, he diffeled from them in opi nion, and acted accordingly. One ins'ance was that of the late war. He had no right to be called to account for his conduct by any person, but he would state that he accepted office in obedience to the commands of his Sovereign ; and he who insi nuated that he hod bartered his honour and his political prin ciples for place only, convi c t e d himself'; for it would be found that he had m a d e l arge sacr ifices to both, could the tenor of his whole life be examined. Whatever some Gentle-. men might think, as to his acc e ptance of Office, the Ca tholics did rot withdraw their confidence from him ; for ,duce that period, he had 5 times received votes of thanks from that Body, whom he was still willing to serve; and if the lion. Baronet would bring forward the measure of Emancipation, he would find in him a warm advocate, who would not quit the House when its propriety came under discussion --(L ou d cheers, anti cries of Hear, hear, hear! from all parts of the licustn)—ln most of the speeches which he had heard on that and the preceding night, he was attacked as if the whole wens. of the measure lay on his shoulders ; and the utmost efihrts were made to fasten a political inconsistency on his career; as even if such existed, it could have any reference to the subject before them. If one lion. Gentleman, who had quoted his thriller speeches, had done so fairly, and had read passages-, immediately prior to those quoted, he would have found that he ' had condemned in contemplation such an Association as that which had since arisen. As to the threat held out of separation of this country, it was an idle menace , for it could" never take n e i tfislo:eliaci.tirlu—int,he Catholics Englandbtibut a smightton perhaps, involve b ot h m one cam , separation, it was totall y i mposs i ble. but Ireland must ac company i t in : Still it,svas of i m portance that Foreign Powers mi g ht enterta i n no doubts of the integrity o f the empire , which might have the t continuedeadigto a war.—(hear, hear!)—H e , was a l ways n to be a friend to th e C at h o li cs, and was a fii: i c t still o f firmly of opinion that he c ould not render them a greater ser viced e than les i be byfo lending his assistance to the pas s i ng o f t h e mea sure re the House. Sir. O'Conn e ll was a Gentlema n of great eminence i n his p r ofession , and was also to b e revere d as a father and a husband ; a nd he trusted, notwithstanding t h e w ild ne ss of his politics, that lie w ou ld h ave too much good s ense to resort to petty - fogging attempts, to eva d e ' t h e tnca sures which the wisdom of that Hous e mi g h t d eem necessary. r. TIERNEY said, that i t was a most extraordinary thing, that when any measure was propo se d aga i nst t h e liber des of the people, the Cabinet were hand in hand • unitec 1 in ca rrying the measure; but if it were to conciliate any portion of the empire by making even the slightest concessions, then were they at variance with each other, and nothing beneficial could be enacted. He was unable to follow the Honourable Gentleman through all his arguments, for he felt a want of ability, of strength, and of memory, to do so ; but some of his arguments lie mild not help noticing. The-suppression of the Catholic Association was called for without any proofs that it ass was dangerous—that w as to be • • •umed. Why did ' not the Right Hon. Gentleman refer his proofs, if he had any, to a Com iniet.ce, whose labours wo u ld p l ace th e House in a situation to legislate with more propriety and better effect. ' They were not then legislating for a small k - not of suspected persons, but for no less than six miilions'of (as the Attorney-General for Ireland had ackno w l e d ge d ) unite' d p eop l e. Th e Hon. Gen tleman had said that th e A ssociation had * got an army of 31,0)0 men, armed with-_a leathern bag (a laugh), anti a slate to register names, and officered by two thousand five hundred Priests. Was it, lie would ask, matter of•alarm that the paltry sum of 10,000/. had been collected ? Why if the present Bill were passed, a sum to twice that amount might be collected— secretly collected ; and was it not b etter t h at t h e i r proceedings should be open than'' concealed? The Catholics were driven to their own resources, and they were justified in their measures by the speech of the Hon. Geatleman, who said that they had no chance of obtaining that to which they had an un doubted' right by his own acknowledgment—( Hear, hear !) and that if they persisted in claiming it, Ile would send them to gaol..—(Loud laughter.)—On a former occasion, when the i; measure had passed through that House, it h a d been re,,,s tectev the other by a majority of 2ii ; and out of those 23 nO` o vei 25 wore white sleeves—(Loud laughter) ; — an d ifthe 6 ,vo i ment had changed their sentiments, the white slaveld t , have changed also.—(Laughter.)—On the question vio-• war, the Attorney-General for Ireland, who had pr e . f sawn his (Mr. T.'s) side .of th 2 House, took alarm' Six Acts put him in ilisniay, and som e thing e's"dco then, and he took a panic, a n d th en a pl ace —(Loud fl o ill , tinued laughter.)—He still, however, did not deaP% ir tfe r . joining them again. Six out of thirteen of the eal.'''. - fy i re convinced that they held a measure which would 1 33c ,,„ 1 5ti". land, but they d a red n o t men tio n it,. for it was tav"btle (Loud cheers.)—There was one Gentleman who, tt i l 0 if the measur e were propo se d, wou ld h ave h e arings i"i If' s ,. hearings without number—(Lodd laughter)--and , il eati ° ' they would recoive by way of answer—" You may I,or it . again next Tuesday.''—(Continued cheers and laug,„ers°' If, however, a proper representation were made to that Pie, he woula, no doubt, rather than resign his place , Ice' , the measure to th e f ee lin gs o f th e w h o l e p o p u l a tion of ti l io k try. He was firmly of opinion that Catholic EmanclP 3l ito been lost solely from th e w a nt of fi r mn ess on the part ° he art', vocates in the Cabinet. He would give his vote mo st 0 1 ' against the mea s ure, a l t h oug h by s o doi ng h e did not 11',40 be considered as approvin g of a ll the measures a t he ciation. h .. /1 10 -,, Mr. BROUGHAM then rose and moved the 0.0 1 of the debate, amidst loud and general cries of " 0° °,, The House divided, when the numbers were— For the Adjournment — 1" Against it . . . . .__ 25 3 a Majority - - - - „Iv- A second division took place upon the same question, For the-Adjournment - .. .: - 76 Against it - - - 0 1 • 15 3 Majority - ' • - - ' _____.oo The question was again proposed, but the 0pr:01, 1 10 0( being abandoned, the House adjourned at. Two OLi Monday. .-_...,4 I NI6 P.A.RLIAMENTARY PROCEED TIOCSE OF COMMONS. Pencils, 11 0 die Februarii, IS 25 * ROADS—Dublin and Diogheda, Ross-shire Kirkby. - and ?lawcs, Borou g hhrid g e an d C at l ier i c l, and Amesbury—Petitions for Bills referred to C ° ". - Penwortham, Wigan, R c nf " rew,-Lanark and Ayr. "":0 1 ; . and Whiteburn a nd Dunse—Bills ordered. DcrbY. - dek' toxeter, Cainscross and Stroud, Hinckley, and SP' and Bridge-erid—Bills read a first time. frq RA: EWA —Belfast and Dublin—Order for referrinkTerfc for a Bill to a Commi t tee di sc h arg ed ; P et ition 1 00' Select COmmittee on Standin g O r d ers . -B o lton al* dill Bill read a first time. Liverpool and Manchester . "' dered. • for l , ? DOCKS—St. Katharine's—Petitions from Colcheste r, e o London, Portsmouth (;rimSby, Jersey, and G r tii; mouth, infiwour—to lie on the table; Bill read n e l. I P 0 V P.: 3f E T—A rdwick and Stulbury , L-Birs crle r c i c r et . 6 ham—Petition for Bill report e d, R e p ort rea d, all to Select Committee on Standing Orders. Stronola' pot" verpool—Bil's read a first time. York Minster, 3 11 ' —Petitions for BIN referred to Committees " VP' .0 INCLOSo RES —Westorr(Norfolk), ; " 0 and'Aberford (York)—Bills ordered. llockering . ,,„ 3 :,o l ! ton :(Norfolk)—Petitioa for Bill, stating tl'atStaao,T4o l3l have not been complied w i t h, re f erre d to S e l e ct on Standing Orders. Two PENNIES SCOTS—Dalkeith—Bill ordered. 0 1)1' NAVIGATION—Weaver—BiII ordered. Caller a" aP' Petition for Bill ref erre d t o a C omm i ttee . S to ur s" „ , wich Haven—Bill read a first time. A # GAS - LlGHT—Glasgow, and Birmingham—Bill rea d time. eof i g HlGllWAYs—Ledbury—Three Petitions for Bill, 01 1 ! i 1 „I V stating that Standing' Orders had not Petitions referred to Select Committee on Drt.trtiA GE—Eau Brink Standing P et itionsto t t o refer r' n) Botolph without Aldgate, and St. ;)lave ( Hart-street) COMPANIES—DabIin Gas Light, Hiber nian Gas Light, and Imperial Conti nental Gas PAVlNG—Southwark (East Division), and I Norfolk J . COUNTY COURT S BlLL—Petition from York. 10 w itt o ,; lie on the table. Bill read a secon d ti me , an d con l r a COAL DUTlES—Petition against, f rom PEXIOIi 3' •if Ellnhanl-10 lie on- the table. Bat s o To wx DUES Petitions from Dublin, u rick. 'Waterford, New Ross, and other parts 0 ' to . agaigst—to lie on the table. ,tctr- STATE or IRELAND—Minutes of Evidence preseo on the table and be printed. , Col° lll CANADA TRADE—Act [3 Geo. 4, c. 119] reau; -thereupon on Monday, March 14. a 0 1 ' WEIGHTS AND MEASURES—BiII " t o p ro lon b 4.00 c the commencement of an Act of l as t S ess i on of I,%tbise: for-ascertaining and establishing unifo rm ity of li c rod Measures," read a first time, to be read a s croll Wednesday next, and to be printed. NOTICES which now o s f t a n il d lO in T t l h O e N o S R , D a E n t . 0 8 12 0 IZ S o o f t f b c tb j e j of COMMONS, for the ENSUING WEEK . . Monday, Feb."l4._ ORDERS OF THE DAY. • l. Usury Laws Repeal Bill—Second reading. 2. Supply—Report. 3. Supply—Committee. Lb . ° 4: Unlawful Societies (Ireland), Motion for Debate. NOTICES OF 310TIONS. 1. Colonel Davies—Return of the number of persons c to the Gaols of Great Britain and Ireland, f c% vending Foreign Goods. Opp 2. Sir Ge o . Cl er k V ote of Seamen. (In Committee of Tuesday, Feb. 15. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. Al ' 1. Sir henry Parnell—Bill to amend the L a w of Tenant in Ireland. 0. 41°‘ 2. Sir H enr y P arne ll—Bill to regu l ate t h e Offi ce of j , Peace in Ireland. 3. Sir John Newport—Moticn regarding the LeVY °f Rates in Ireland. a l e 1 0 ,o ° 4. Mr. Alderman Heygate—Bill to alter and amend d ie against Usury, and to mitigate th e P ena lties the _ tained. le ltti4' 5. Mi. Goulburn—Re.appointment of th e S e l ec t .C° ll3 last Sessio on the state of Ireland. - 6. Mr. Ilume n —Return of the number of British s ol)l A l cis " 4 have been banished from British Indi a without tr l 1813.. 7. Lord Viscount Althorp—To refer the County Cc 41141 a Select Committee. Wednesday, Feb. 16. NOTICE OF MOTION. t i t fl Mr. William Smith—Bill for granting relief to cl : r d eP senters, in relation to the Solemniz a tion o f Ner r '' • onntit OF THE DAY. Weights and Measures Bill—Second reading. Thursday, Feb. 17. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. 1 18 ,11 1 1. Mr. Stuart Wortley—Bill to amend th e G a me lA -2. Lord Viscount Lowther—Select Committee to the management of Turnpike Trusts in the Vicl"" etropol is. FHday, Feb. M. ORDER OF THE DAY. House to be called over. 3. I. Last Day for receiving. Petitions for Private BO' NOTICE GIVEN YESTERDAY; co / Thursday, March 15. Mr. Wilmot Horton—Bill to amend Slave Log tion Act of last Session. DEATH OF MR. J. H. PARItY, - THE BARB' pe , This Gentleman. on his return to 111 1,1 ) 6' in Burton-street, from P en t onv ill e, on S atur d a y Dt came in contact with a man of the name of Bennett, f is cl layer, whom he h a d previc'isly seat at the Prince ° 0 Ofel Tavern, in North- s t reet , w h en a scu ffl e ensue d, Mr. Pantry received so severe a blow that he die i 'coto li f lt minutes after he was brought hack to the tavern. A... 00 0. 1 0 1: Inquest sat on the body on Thursday. Some ile_ mi oev, ;e o' witnessed the scuffle, deposed ,that they saw the (ley — , ode : tempting to defend himself. The Rev. Mr. Herber” o 9l l ,o l the witnesses, said to Bennett, " What a villian youe, you have killed the man." To which Bennett rein/ A he had b een i nsu l te d an d struck first by his oppallotOV William Symes, a surge o n , saw th e d ecease d' on og e Le r night; he was quit e d ea d, h e was bl ee di ng f rom the . 7 13 0 rj d seemed to have received a viol en t blo w , th e t o p lip " rated, and the bottom one was very much swollen' Y p) p c , since seen the body, and find a severe blow on the ba 4 bso,o , head, as if h e h a d f a ll en w i t h hi s h ea d aga i nst a hard 911tItelid which produ ce d a c on cuss i on o f th e b ra i n , w hi c h o' o o " h id mediate cause of his death. The landlord told me he i s ts oo ii_ t o o in a fit. The J ur y re t urne d a ver di c t o f " Mang against Wm. Bennett," who has been apprehended b/ p t, and Reynolds,_ two constalles, on the Coroner's warts conyeyed to Newgate.