The Sun. — London, England, 1834-02-22 00:00:00

' 411 3' as he agreed With his Noble Friend that it was impossible to_ gipivre r e!ief to an y one class, without every other class in the nnsi e Particip a ti ng in the benefit. tonl. et:tHENRY WILLOUGHBY b egged to occupy the atten anYin.he ' 4 -sense for a few moments. He would not go into telect of general discussion, but would confine himself epx.entusively to the question before the House. What was the principle unon which that question ought to be determined . ? *ash of• frodr Whiaam Pledged to any particular proposition, it to endeavour to redeem that pledge. :_nt.ishat was the P r inciple which the House had to proceed ttnutiliteherehdeunction of taxation, that of endeavouring to asc- e're nnititry p Th in e ode of reconciling the conflicting interests of th bea n ad ,,,,, great distress of the agricultural interest had tha t i. , ,: ua ted, and distinctly proved. It was no doubt . also true the ' "ad been pronounced by the report of a Committee, that It 4. efrfa s .roorcial interest was not enjoying any great prosperity.. i5..7 "'en well observed by an Hon. Member, that in essti -o,7eting thei, h ,,, ,rosperity of any manufacture, it should be con i it w d . "` °Y how much business was done, but at what rate 'lnc as e -Ile ' \VbY not pursue the same course with respect to e tpetttlture as that Hon. Member had recommended withr ough„°rcariUfactures ? The object of all reduction of taxation t he r ' tobe tw ofold not only to allow the producer to h p u r t od a uc so e t o es for home co inption at a cheaper ra , N "a ble hi nsu - with fa. ! o kark in to enter into a.successful competition ta xation . e ,k Such should be the view taken of agricultural • an inm, she repeal of the malt tax would not only produce briag'"ediate effect, but would enable parties growing barley to there ol ' . m ore cheaply into the market, and would enable Ide. I+ilinately to compete with foreign growers. I S l 'e I resentAWELL strongly recommended a tax on absentees. ' °. it e riah sYstein was an absolute premium on ab . sen ma• r; anq to ed ab sentees to draw their income from this co whi c h iv e abroad without being subjected to those burdens ' • i Ntr, t sse d so heavily on their countrymen. 4 ors "NELL said he meant to vote for the motion. th e tioldd state briefly why, It was because it would pledge Whi c h uB e to repeal the Malt tax, and every other tax . by l'ortheagriculture was kept in a state of undue depression. w ar not al l very well knew that the Noble Lord (AlthorPn) c o l d t ake a single step in that direction, except t upo r th e Pte:,„ 4 * Another reason which induced him to vo Memberefo for w„ '''t Motion was that it would afford the Hon. L thot.preester a rezison, for pressing on the Noble Lord (A l Lora (ial telaxation of the duties on shipping. The Nob e t°Preser,t,h°ll,) wou ' ld, no doubt, yield to all these pressures, c t ,,,,, e wises e t tb , e , PoPularity of the Government. Surely th . is , - "ltnit t °' an possible countries, and yet surely it had +0 it s dal e , d the greatest of all possible blunders with . respect ot°;,,thePublicdebt, The country owed nearly one- thousand millions nentosa,,., ',editor. Now , a private individual in the same .h ; `t edit or •'''', who owed as any thousands, would go to . . his ' 4 the pound and would remonstrate against paying thirty shinni n g 4 1 w as titt!td instead of twenty. Yet that was what . the . co on u se - . "ence of with reference to the public creditor, in . c the vah . „ _ _ the 1 eoll , or the e..'egislative change which had been made in otn, urrency. hie ' was th • Another proof of the wisdom of the reli ef. , , e propensity to take off taxes wi new . A hat relief' would the commercial or landed inted_ A ltho r by the rem' • shp , P e E xe r emission of . taxation o p l r d opo m s a ed xim by , byilhg saved w t on the principle of the that Lnr a "cat e „, as a shilli e got they would obtain no relief t -I. ' lie had n- - ' elief to the coup. enuld hi , , heard it argued that no r . I t i odau s . ' e,, n tt, s ,o w gfu e - i n ia , a r t: t h ( : as r et d r ell ieepat b ini y eou t i a d ki tgeo ff taxes. To this he would k to try.—(A laugh.) There agti etilto r Y between l his Majesty's speech and the 'ord Althorn His Majesty's speech declared . tha . c 'Ples of e w as ill a state . of great depression. On the princi. that co_ P°litieal economy, the seconder of the address proved sat horp unt er e , ,___ a "ss greatl ' y depresse and then came Lord 'citner' a nd declared that he was earnedp to give relief to a n+ed c ee + and to no other interest . He (Mr. O'Connell) t hat ',,•,° 'ober sadness , whether it was not agreed on all hands a gric a it e niture was in ' a state of great distress ? Did any tat e, 4 '. l trist receive a third of his former income ; at any t hird . 41 he receive half? in Ireland, a few received a gr eatl y l ie, would tell the House, h owever, who enjoyed meat de Inc reased incomes—the proprietors of th e Govern _ 'eivetletd• The interest which those proprietors now re_ W othp,notlid purchase three times the quantity of the meat , , th 'hen - neeessaries which it would have pure ased at the time +. h e i e debt was contracted. Parliament must look to it. strike of% ntenest of that debt must be reduced. They would must effect a saving Of to,:ll,'"til_orf that interest at once. That 0 01 th , l4 i l 1 008 and a half. No doubt thecr h ed r itors would cry hati ooa 7 s . uch a proceeding' would be a rob e y a breach of he coo t fa 'th, and national honour. All that was ca l l o lt n ; g w co h n a . t ho o ,, sehded for was, national justice.—(Loud and Bai ' u.,, . 4 , ° ,uts of " Hear, hear.") They had been struggling te st. °L,..this landed]ong enough. They suffer give up h • : as Itivi" ._"e interest was deeplying.. H . ope tr ei . ;:ay ; and the darkness of despair was difflising itselfhe as fa ce of the land, enlightened only by the fires of Was th em The The only interest that prospered in the country had ~` Moneyed interest. The substitution of gold for paper p r ,,,Th to that interest an undue advantage and influence. It adc'etct,inated over the other interests of this country. It was eheap_..!.° them. The other interests wanted every thing as As a ha , `_°e Moneyed interest every thing as dear as possible. aim', ;ajiee.to this p r edominance, let the House strike off a (spearti4 !feels thath a t t a' l ' 'I- n i a t °e t r i s a tt .sof the Government debt, and reduce taxa (shonsttoiat, If at the end of a twelvemonth, it should . wer e degsinir n rei : eb t ni : , 7 a Sufficient; zn, lessening strike produce ofr a al n l o t t h h e er b s e i n x e t fi h c . Lal sch eno _ f ‘, Hear, hear, hear.") The Noble Chancellor of the th, ~, ,, i , ,,,e :,, i n th etauberance of his imagination, had talked of oeselripttioniorroshof the country, and had luxuriated in the themselves to 11 Which had occurred to n h* s 0". h , ° t!e . eni to have ever Tire .But among the other modes 7:,!r2 try his (Mr. O'Connell order to oblige the thiaerenspaectiot he e de d b i t d . foible Lord to resort tO Some Plan of this kind, he would vote ‘t_nrestnotion of the Noble Marquis. feb 7 . TANLEY begged the indulgence of the House for a 4,;;ltihnutes and would endeavour to keep his time mare ex_ far f t a n the Hon. and Learned Member had done. He was ,$) I. lasgnsve.atrilhlieno:sgl'les w which presented forced disputing many of tile propositions which had . b t ee n n ce en o . t. aoi t - w u tu Y the Noble Marquis, nor could he deny t t h h e e r e e x po i e xistence C o mmit t r e at distress, corroborated as it was by 0 .._ _ Majesty's of the 'ke el , e e of last year, and by the expressions of his if th e r et t the opening of the present session of Parliament, and hiat ot , y - - QP,.csition under their consideration were merely contir_ useful + that fact, he (Mr. S. could not deem it either a very hi t , t or a very desirable proposition. It seemed, ilideed, to stela ° f ort e b e ho specific effect, but to introducedhave dis b e ee ns n smn.Letit Purpose of raising an angry seei l e suPposed that he was disputing the facts, but he must h ° Wed to 411, doubt the judgment and propriety of introducing , 4 l'4, Qti°4 to the House as that which was under discus. li o lit acti '°r, what th w as Proposed t o b e d one,—w h at was to be e n ? c al effect in the event of the House agreeing to the mo cshm4 Let Hon. Members consider the point well. Let them 'cllc' . the fundsgr on Which the proposition had met the Ile ~,;:- e nce of n. and Learned Member for Dublin. Il ea, „not pretending to impute similar motives to any other w a4 ell'i.t.Zber who thought fit to support the motion, but he t t 'ere , 1 , a to know, Plac4 ° ,,. be carried, if by a combination of various interests 1, 50 , 0ett ith countinrywhat situation the House would be r egard to the reduction of taxation and the future "'° 'ber: Of the ter ed , to .. consider this?-;o( il:ttbit4i.i.niffeeeresen. i i - I n t e a r , h T e h a e r . ) p r 0 He o e s it besought io n was s Hon. np. the :v4ll°wed the nttPersdiis on . very'different grounds, but the Would cet•tainlybe univ . er t s e a n l d c ed onfusion. Might Land be done in keto t Zt Of the atto:otat:qufiriel motionwas in The Hon. and Learned Alth ro r f°' bUblin h m o t t . . e t h ' t his Noble Friend Lord i' r ess h eo r Wo uld nev es • id ley) , , and for€ 4 .ogive up any tax unless he were driven, t the uttermost. Now, this he (Mr. Stan he a fault to which his Noble Friend was not peen iziecahrtilli ma, :o_,• aoyvi, ihe had confessed only the other day that tha t . r ed the re ~, it , ,duction of taxation to too great an extent, and ne to the elastic resources of the country,.. em. „ raas, + 4 l) the de fi ciency, that considerable financial far , - .+eritdi d p uohlin I not ensue _(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member ? ''''alls he l ad said he would vote for the resolution. Why . awbotitio4''oefexeected it would be followed by the immediate ~, Well , the Inalt tax (Hear hear.) He (Mr. Stanley) 11' , .e dell 'Ware that such an ' act would ' be very popular ; that ea atir Was of v erY lar „, ot e ou the i.. g . e amount, and occas . i t o e n re ed sts co o n f si l d re er la a n b d le , p er „Which th ',tided interest. But the in v aa j " l "arly so ,. ! Hon. and Learned Member always seemed vo; h e i e d by thlett4us, surely her interests would not ke e p ''d Put it h t re peal s of the malt.tax ?—(Hear, heaf.Y He tP, , th to the RI the t, aver iißight Hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir R. th,.'',.°/1 a oil e was prepared to support the propli t it t i a o x n to , i ,"` eigh t ~" 1-earned Member for repealing the ma ool t -2 tha t it w t :',"• Mernber who asserted that 1,200,0 th . c w on e n re . 1 7 , by a dis tix)s,ble to take oti' from the burdens of another her 1 0 , 4 , 51 ° I • i li t4 t . e to. hinrr,iptrihrooetiioiiio of taxation ? h hitt eti , He would ask . t fan o! , nikeh e „, __ ached the Government o. Member for Essex fo ( r M e r i . ic ß r a o r a i c n h t, g wl o i n o th e s`r th e ".', “largin of taxation, whether he was prepared to nothatio4ai noieos.tractiou of 5,000,0001. from the interest of 'W hic ' h ft°4l h t : ' ) Partial reduction of the malt tax would the ta " ,, sorn e tiodegree of relief to the agric T u n itu t r ak al e i o n ff te h res al t f exp eh : Wooi ti nuoi beeNlrnbers might expet. Pr esen et eoll rly as at , a removal of half the burden, for the th t, li ection would remain pretty lien cost of the t ax i ta t s kin g Ott the whole tax you took the entire fait Of cone,. el l; because , you also got rid of d oc s , , you Ic on of affo m _ , out take off part of the tax, rh a e n • Right elo,, eqenti,,.`..tnntopertionate relief —( Hear.) h ad ' i v .. and so ' l ti a va .theit proceeded to say that . a moreHocusone h had 4s t hea t , ' t ! ct.rY statement than that which the win ti o 1.. ne ver w r i ci t ill the Hon. and Learned Member for Du hieh for w t ea '°ed Ge,ll',"ed—a statement in the course of w .de r . lat the li()lttetilan showed that he was prepared . to pror t i he ° f a t' of tax,ti:j rleiliber for Essex once denominated ina o , 'e "bin: debt ' by a direct encroachment on the interest 1- 10 0. 8 mode of h;Cheers.) This was the Learned Gentle. The or o _ aim 1,,,,, 0, ,' lt i,g up the margin.—(Hear,. hear.) the z‘i xth or ti - , 1 1 , G. entleman proposed an immediate reduction . inonth:" be s'ittc innerest of the national debt, and if . that Inention. He h, ,t e l e , rit, lie would reduce another sixth in 12 with;hill r. ade o f ~ , e ,ard the other night with surprise some nitel y n 0 0, ,, ime pretext of an Act of Parliament ; u rZtoht,c,inati talk iii aaisit?nisliment did he now hear the Learned the oto-,--(L'olld and Jitish Parliament of" the cant of national reeeive u d e i o ,hipli th e ery e signiticant cheering.) He . f o r n an was by Le tour sent repetition of that exp . r h ess "Y the *lginalhr - et °f c ontemptuous derision wit which it ch arge . rr ied J m when gravely stated and put forward ---, , tt 6 , e `d PartakGinentleman, fully vindicated the House pin the ~,t i. 0 1n e„,,,, i elle : . in any such absurd and profligate ons. io th_gtexpreasion )coing_- He owned " profligate" was . a • very e o ose or Principle's urse lie meant " profligate opinions" leading directly to acts of political profligacy—but he could not make use of a lighter term when characterising the sentiments referred to.—(Hear, hear.) He rejoiced to hear the tone or derision with which the house had received the hon. gentle Ilan', observation, inasmuch as that unequivocal expression of feeling, saved the house from all sus picion, vindicated it froni the imputation of participating in the sentiment, and sustained within the walls of Parliament, not " the cant" but the high principle of integt ity, and national faith and honour.—(Loud cheering.) He had merely risen for the purpose of commenting on the Learned Gentleman's expres sion, and also to call the attention of the house to the fact that a great number of those who were prepared to form part of what he expected to be the majority, might do so without entering into every financial consequence, but simply because they would not, by so large an abolition of taxation, endanger the national honour, which they were determined to uphold and vindicate.— (Cheers.) He should only add, that according to every maxim of political prudence, the house ought not to accede to a reso lution on the ground that it merely contained the assertion of a truism, without being prepared to follow out the principles of that truism in the way which its supporters advocated. [The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded amidst loud cheering.] Sir R. PEEL concurred in nearly all the sentiments implied in the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, more particularly in re fer6nce to the maintenance of national faith—(Cheers)—and concurring as he did in those sentiments, nothing could be more painful than to find himself compelled by a sense of duly to vote on the same side as those whose doctrines he totally repudiated—doctrines founded on an avowed violation of every principle of national faith and honour.—(Loud cheer ing.) But he should be ashamed of himself if he allowed that circumstance to prevent him from taking the course he had intended to adopt, or if he wire to permit himself to be thus deterred from the performance of a plain duty. He was not sorry, however, that the Hon. Gentleman had avowed his political creed.—(Loud and marked cheering.) When we came to consider the question of a repeal of the union between England and Ireland, we should be able to collect what politi cal principles would be likely to prevail in the event of that measure being conceded.—(Cheers.) Oh, (continued the Right Hon. Baronet) oh ! all you who are interested in the public funds in Ireland ; oh ! all ye Protestants who hold lands or other property in Ireland, learn by this indiscreet declaration of the Hon. Gentleman what you have to expect when you shall be handed over to the tender mercies of a popular as sembly in which the influence and principles of the Learned Gentleman prevail.—(Vehement and continued cheering.) " Cant," exclaims the Learned Gentleman—" Cant !" (turning round and fixing his eyes on Mr. O'Connell) " I thank thee, Jew, for teaching me that word." —(Great cheering and laughter.) You have dedided the ques tion of repeal of the union by this preliminary declaration. — (Renewed cheering.) Oh! know every man who has property of any description—who has any interest in the national funds, that on such slender pretences of state necessity rests the doc trine which justifies a violation of national faith—a doctrine which, being once established, no description of property is any longer safe.—(Repeated cheers.) Therefore, though I vote with the Hon. and Learned Member, I cannot avoid expressing strongly my abhorrence of his principles.—(Cheering.) The Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to say, that he was not prepared to admit that, as a necessary consequence of a compliance with this motion, a violation of national faith must follow still less did he mean to imply that he was ready to grant any relief to the agricultural interest at the expense of disturbing the confi dence reposed in national faith. The Noble Lord had explained, in an incautious and premature declaration, that the national funds were exceedingly prosperous, and, accordingly, that he had a certain sum to be applied to the remission'of taxes. The Noble Lord had said, " On the whole, my inclination is towards a remission of the house tax : however, I make no such proposition, but I leave each of you to a certain period within which to make your claim, and propose your plan for the relief of such interests as you please to patronize : mark, however, that if you succeed, I won't repeal the house-tax.—(Hear, and laughter.) A certain period." continued the Noble Lord, " I will wait before I make any pro position; meanwhile, you can urge your claims for a participa tion in the surplus of 1,200,0001." Nothing could be more orfair candid than this declaration of the Noble Lord—(A • laugh) —and it would be perfect treason to any interests requir lofgtlZselP interests laughter.)did not l avail ft h e t r h e em , o se u l l v d es b o e of a s n o y libe ral fair arbitrator supposed to require a remission of taxation if the friends —(Renewed between the conflicting claims which • ° fre r. might arise , it must be the Noble Lord himself, who said—' , In very truth I think the remission of the house tax not the best proceeding that could be adopted." Now, if we could relieve the Noble Lord from his difficulty by suggesting another tax, the remission of which he must approve of, it would be well.—(A laugh.) " I spoke of taking off the house tax (said the Noble Lord), but I don't think that is the best thing I could do." Never was there so clear an intimation of a wish to be ravished as that.—(Great laughter.) " I have consulted my political economists (says the Noble Lord) and they have convinced me that this is not exactly the tax that ought to be remitted, that there are others which might be re moved with greater advantage; therefore I give you six months, a clear stage, and no favour. Try what you can do."—( Hear, and laughter.) He was quite aware of the necessity of main taining the national faith, and would not go beyond the ad. mitted surplus of 1,200,000/. ; but, confining hi if within that limit, he asked the Noble Lord whether ther7 were not other taxes which might be more conveniently repealed than the house duty'? The Noble Lord had said that the agricul tural interest was so intimately blended with all others that the true way to insure its prosperity was to increase that of the country at large, to give freedom to commerce, and promote the active play of the ordinary springs of wealth. Did the remission of the house-tax comply with aq of these conditions? Admitting the Noble Lord's principles—supposing his views of political economy to be correct, did a repeal of the house-tax promise a removal of the burdens or obstructions of trade and commerce ? Or did it hold out a prospect of materially aug. menting the national wealth ? He thought not. Indeed, the Noble Lord appeared to say, " Secretly I am of the same opinion myself, but last year I gave a promise to take off the house-tax." In his opinion it would not be difficult to discover a tax much better to be remitted. The house-tax was, in fact, in the na ture of a property-tax, without the inquisitorial and objec tionable character of that tax, besides which, it applied more to the higher classes than the window-tax, the remission of which latter would be a greater relief to the agricultural in terest. The remission of the house-tax was not a removal of duty on raw materials which burdened the springs of industry. The house tax was a direct tax upon a principle not objection able in itself, and he was by no means satisfied that it was proper to remove it. With a surplus of 1,200,0001. he was not clear that any one tax should be entirely remitted—of this he was satisfied, that there were many other points much better adapted for relaxation than the house tax. A sound alteration of the poor laws was necessary not only for the relief of the agricultural classes, but in order to promote the best interests of the country at large, inasmuch as the independence and corn fort of the lowest classes were intimately interwoven with the well-being of the highest. But the evils of the present system of poor laws being inveterate, relief to be sound or effectual must necessarily be tardy. It was mere delusion to hold out to the occupying tenant in the midst of his distresses the ex pectation that any measure connected with an improvement in the poor laws could operate as an immediate relief to the agricultural interests. It was only by slow and gradual means that any real and permanent amelioration could he hoped for.—(Hear, hear.) Returning, however, to a point he had nearly forgotten, he wished the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Althorp) would appoint a Committee (or Commission, we could not gather which), of intelligent gentlemen, to con sider the operation of those taxes to which the landed interest was subject—including, of course, the expense of criminal prosecutions—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear,)" —repairs of bridges—(Hear, hear)—poor rates, and all local burdens, and to report whether these burdens were justly and fairly appor tioned.—(Cheers.) He very much doubted whether, in pro moting morality, or, more correctly speaking, in punishing crime, the landed interest had not much more than a moiety of the burden—whether the towns did not contribute most to the increase of crime, and the country to the expense of its punishment.—(Cheers.) The country people did not stand on an equality with the inhabitants of towns. For a surcharge in the country there was at best but a slow and tedious relief; but let an individual be subjected to a like grievance in town, and he immediately confederated with his neighbour—com binations were formed—(Hear)—deputations attended at the Treasury—(Hear, hear)—and the demand for redress suc ceeded. Now what farmer could do this ? He had that morn ing received a letter on the subject of surcharges, the contents of which he would detail to the House. It was written by an individual of whom he knew nothing—not having a single friend to apply to, he had addressed him (Sir R. Peel) ; and as the letter came from a county of which the Noble Lord (Al. thorp) was supposed to know something—he meant Northamp. tonshire—(A laugh)—he was sure the Noble Lord would lend a willing ear to its complaints.—(Hear, and laughter.) Now this letter came from a grasier—(A laugh)—who held an estate under 2001. per annum, and who kept one horse, which horse had been surcharged as a riding horse. The grasier ap pealed against the impost, but the liability was confirmed on the ground that a grasier was not a farmer, or one who got his living by husbandry. The commissioners were asked if they could produce any legal authority for their decision ? Oh, yes, they could easily do that—they had looked into authori ties—and so they had produced a folio edition of Dr. John. son's Dictionary—(Great laughter) —yes, they were prepared for the objection, and so armed with this huge Dictionary, they hesitated not to encounter his unfortunate correspondent.— (Hear, hear, hear.) In this great law authority—(A laugh)— they found that husbandry meant tillage, and that tillage meant ploughing only, and they unanimously confirmed the original decree.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Now he did hope that the Noble Lord would consider how he could best apply his surplus revenue, and that he would do something for the agri cultural interest. He had no more to say at that time ; indeed, he did not intend, on entering the House, to have taken any part whatever in the debate ; nor should he have spoken at all, but that he wished to distinguish his support of the present mo tion from that of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, whose conduct that evening strongly reminded him of the well. known story of the elephant, which, when wounded in battle, was generally found much more dangerous to friends than to foes.—(Cheers and laughter.) There was one other point to which he would for a moment only refer. It struck him very forcibly that the high price of wool at the present time was an exceedingly strong proof of the depth and extent of agricultural distress.—(Loud cries of " hear, hear.") There was also an unusual difference between the price of meat and the price of corn ; and it was a well-known maxim amongst farmers, that this could not last long ; the meat could not be high and corn low, without producing very lamentable results. — (Hear, hear.) He (Sir Robert) begged to observe that he should strenuously resist any attempt at repealing the torn laws ; for he would not consent to run the risk of 'an immediate and fearful revolution of society.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was not seeking for further protection-- he wished no protection to butter or other produce—but he was not prepared to consent to less than they how had. In conclusion, he observed that the Noble Lord, having the power to remit a certain quantity oftaxation, ought to select those taxes which directly or indirectly bore hardly upon agri. culture. It was his duty, instead of repealing the whole of the' house tax, to remit those taxes the removal of which, by in. creasing the wealth of the country, or affording relief to agri culture, directly or indirectly, would assist that class which was most distressed, and possessed the strongest claim to consi deration by the loyalty, submission, and patience, with which it had borne its long and severe sufferings —(Cheering, and cries of" Divide," " Question.") The House divided— For the the original motion, " that the Speaker do leave the Chair" 206 For the Marquis of Chandos's amendment 202 Majority for Ministers 4 The result of the division was received with loud cheering. BARON SMITH. Sir E. KNATCHBULL was well aware—no one, in deed, more so—of the delicate situati m in which he stood, in asking the House to re-consider a vote which it had once agreed to, but he still thought he could produce such lair and reasonable grounds as would induce com pliance wi , h his motion. In recalling to the recollection of the House the circumstances which had already marked this case, he could not but bear in his mind the strong feeling which attached to the question beyond those walls. —(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") In the course of the previous discussion, be believed that the Right Hon. the Secretary for the Colonies had been led into the course he had adopted by the tone which the debate was made to assume, and this had led many independent men to vote in a way which they would not otherwise have done. In many respects the debate had become a party one. Now be hoped he should gain credit for sincerity when he de clared he did not bring the question forward as a party man, but that he submitted it with a deep impres sion on his mind of the danger which might at tach to anything like an attack on the indepeo ,knee of the judges of the land.—(Cheers.) Among the litany difficulties under which he laboured in bringing forward this question, the least was not the fear of unwittingly baying aught which by possibilimy might hurt the feelings of a Judge, whose character for upwards of thirty years had been without taint or suspicion. He (Sir E. Knatchbull) did not despair of bringing the House back to the full consideration of the question which he was desirous to press upon its notice. It was stated by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin that it was an Irish subject, and therefore that it should experience the neglect and contumely of the House. This he (Sir E. Knatchbull) strongly and emphatically denied.—(Hear, hear.) The interests of Ireland were not neglected in the Imperial Parliament. Every Minister was alive to the vitality of Irish interests, and it was a mere waste of words to assert they found no echo in the House.— (Hear.) The arraignment of Judges was, thank God, unusual.—(Hear.) With the exception of Lord Macclesfield, late years did not afford an instance. The cases of Judges Fox and Johnson did not come under the consideration of Parliament. They were merely made the subjects of preliminary proceedings. To accuse a Judge of mal-execution of his solemn and imposing functions was to declare the existence of corruption and ignorance, wh ch, whether they resulted from premeditation, or want of knowledge, were alike destructive of those feel. ings of sanctity and omnipotence with which the sacred majesty of justice should be clothed.—(Hear, hear.) The charges of the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin were twofold. He denounced the Learned Baron for neglect of duty, and for being a violent political partisan. With respect to the first, that should not be an individual which was a general subject of complaint. He was charged with coming into Court at a late hour. Was not that a practice which obtained in the sister country ?—(Hear.) Was it not the general custom of the Judges ? He (Sir E. Knatchbull) boldly, and without fear of contradiction, asserted it was, and, therefore, must look to other motives to those already announced for being desirous to drag a venerable Judge of the land to the bar.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, as counsel in the cause— (Laughter)—has not told us that any representation was made to the Learned Baron, that any peculiar charge was brought. Was it fair, he would ask, to bring such accusations forward, and charge Baron Smith Mr. O'CONNELL denied it; he did not so charge the Learned Baron. Sir E. KNATCHBULL—Had not the Hon. and Learned Gentleman done so ? Had he not made a charge of laches ? Mr. O'CONNELL had not done so for two years. It was of another Learned Judge. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL—If that had been the case, was it not cruel for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to have made such averments ? Baron Smith had for many years defended the rights, and advocated the great question of Ca tholic Emancipation ; but now, indeed, he was opposed to the principles, and hostile to the plans of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and consequently he was to be denounced, and an inquiry instituted into his conduct. The only tangible charge of neglect of duty rested at the Armagh Assizes; and even here, no reflection was made on the purity of his administra tion of justice.—(Colonel Verner—" Hear, hear.") This charge he (Sir E. Knatchbull) confidently, in the face of Parliament, would assert, would never have been brought forward but for the offence committed against the views of the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin. He would not deny that Baron Smith had so charged the Dublin Grand Jury in the terms stated ; and he should not stand up for the extreme accuracy of his judgment. He was induced to address the Jury, in con. sequence of the state of the county. And here he would ask, was every one to be amenable for every error they might by possibility have committed ?—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Judge had only followed the custom of his predecessors. He should adduce one instance—he should allude to the charge of Mr. Justice Day, in 1811, and he was not aware any animad version had been made on this charge. The charge was to the following effect : This happy state of the country is perhaps the more grati. fying when we reflect upon the activity of incendiaries to in flame and corrupt the public mind. At no former period have orators, scribblers, and printers circulated with more busy in dustry their maddening poisons through the land. These mis chievous advocates of civil and religious freedom, as they call themselves, have engaged in their service a number of the prints of this city, and those prints, instead of sustaining the character of the Irish Press by liberal, fair, and candid discussion, have lent themselves to sedition. " The professed object of all this is Roman Catholic equalisa. tion, figuratively called Catholic emancipation; but do these libellers fancy that a measure the most momentous, pregnant with the most serious consequences to the whole empire, is to be carried by storm ? " For myself, I uniformly and earnestly supported every re laxation of the Popery laws; but, in the hottest moments of my zeal for that measure, I always presumed to think that there was an object of still more value to the State than even Catholic emancipation—and that is the public peace. " The public peace must not be resigned by its best avengers, the Grand Juries and Petty Juries of the country, to factious and turbulent men." Now, he would ask whether Baron Smith went farther than this ? Mr. Justice Day had been a Judge, on whom the breath of censure had never fallen. This was fully admitted. Still was Baron Smith to be impeached for doing that which Mr. Justice Day was eulogised for so fully effecting ? He protested against the course which had been adopted. He besought the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin to be tranquil. He had left nothing in the sister country which he had not assailed; let him spare the majesty of justice! He should move for the re. scinding of theprevious order respecting Baron Smith. Mr. ROBINSON seconded the motion, in brief and ener getic terms. Mr. Secretary STANLEY considered that even with respect to the usual and general practice of that House, and in accord ance with it, the matter ought not to be allowed to rest here, but the inquiry ought to be fully and fairly prosecuted. There were, in his opinion, sufficient , grounds for having the charge made against the Learned Baron carried before a Committee. Besides, it would be better for the Learned Baron to hear the charge solemnly made before the Committee, where those who brought it would be obliged to substantiate it, and where the accused would have an opportunity of justification. If the charge were not fully substantiated before the Committee, they would discharge the accusation, and, of course, honourably ac quit the party against whom it had been brought. On these grounds alone, lie thought the Learned Baron ought to court inquiry. The Hon. Baronet (Sir E. Knatchbull) had appealed to him, and asked him what course he would pursue if he were so circumstanced as was the Learned Baron, and he had added, that if the censure of that House should be passed on the Learned Baron, it would be impossible for him to retain his situation.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now his (Mr: Stanley's) answer to such an appeal was distinctly, that if an accusation was brought against him in that House, and that if it were sought to institute an inquiry into his conduct, he would feel bound to oppose every attempt to stifle it, and would instantly prepare to meet it boldly. He said he thought it far better to have the accusation fully sifted, rather than remain as the Learned Baron would if the matter proceeded no further, burdened with half a vote of censure of that House. That, he assured the Hon. Baronet, under such circumstaces, would be the course he should pursue, and that he felt confident would be the line of conduct all honourable and high minded men would unhesitatingly adopt. The Learned Baron, he believed, was a highly honourable man—and he might add, a high-minded and proud man—and, of course, a man that would be deeply sensible to any stain that might be cast upon his character by any proceedings of that House; and fur that reason he must be desirous that no stain should remain, and be anxious to vindi cate himself before a Committee of that House. For his own part lie did not mean to cast the slightest stain on the honour and integrity of the Learned Baron, yet still he felt bound to express the opinion that the Learned Baron, as he believed from what he had heard, had de viated in his charge from the strict path of his duty.—(Hear.) He did not mean to dwell on the charge brought against Baron Smith on account of what had occurred at Armagh, but he would beg the House to recollect that the very same charge was brought forward last Session of Parliament by the Hon. Mem ber for Monaghan, arid that the opinion of the House was then asked on the matter. With respect to the other accusa tion, now first made, namely, that the Learned Baron had in troduced certain political topics into a criminal charge delivered by him at the last Dublin assizes, lie must confess that some very weak arguments were brought forward to justify him : he really could not see how it was possible tq vindicate Mr. Baron Smith, by adducing the practice and example of other Irish Judges, nor did he think that the case of th e c h arge d e li vere d by Judge Day, in 1811, was at all in p o i n t . Th ere was a .vide distinction to be drawn between a Judge travelling out of his way in his charge to a Jury, and a Judge who, in his charge confined his remarks and allusions to the nature of the crimes mentioned in the calendar. The Hon. Baronet had contended that both charges were the same; but such was not in reality the fact. In the one charge, the political state of the country was unnecessarily introduced; whilst in the other(Judge Day's) it was necessary to do so, since seditious publications were the objects of prosecution; and in telling the town grand jury what was the nature of these prosecutions, it was almost impossible not to introduce political topics. He agreed with the Hon. Baronet about not prejudging the question ; though a charge was brought, no one could consider it substantiated until they had the report of the Committee of that House. Upon the question the House had come to a resolution, which resolution could not, without considering all the circumstances of the matter, be hastily rescinded.—(Hear, hear.) As he had said in the outset of his speech, he thought that Baron Smith him self would not ask them to rescind their original resolution, but would beg of them to proceed instantly with their investi gation. They ought to proceed with that investigation, unless previously some circumstance or circumstances should arise to induce the House to pause and modify its first resolution. It was on these grounds that he took his stand, opposed the pre sent motion, and advised the House to adhere to their first vote.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SHAW said he had new circumstances, and new facts, and something of importance to state to the House, which he had obtained since they had come to their late decision. When the case was first brought forward, it was under peculiar and embarrassing circumstances, and particularly so far as it re garded Mr. Baron Smith, who had no notice of the charge the lion, and Learned Member for Dublin had thought fit to bring forward against him. He never thought that the charge would have had so grave a conclusion—he thought that it would have been treated lightly, as the Hon. and Learned Member's charges are when they are brought forward in Ireland. More over, he felt considerably embarrassed by one circumstance. From what had occurred between him and the Right Hon. Secretary opposite (Mr. Littleton) he had fully expected to have had, with respect to the original motion, the support, and not the opposition, of his Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.) He was completely surprised that the Right Hon. Secretary should have changed his mind for so trifling an alteration as that made in the first notice of motion given by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. In the first instance, the Right Hon. Secretary had distinctly stated to him that it was the intention of Government to oppose the motion, and that he (the Right Hon. Secretary) in his comments on the charge— for he said he felt himself bound to comment on it—would .refrain from saying one single word that would in any way tend to hurt the feelings of Mr. Baron Smith. Now he (Mr. Shaw) maintained, that the two motions of the Hon. ourable and Learned Member for Dublin were substantially the same. The first notice of motion was to call the attention of the House to the conduct of Baron Smith, with a view to his removal from the bench. The motion that had been agreed to was the same, since the result of it would be the same, and since it was evident that no inquiry could be instituted unless it was for the sake of having the Learned Baron removed from the Bench. He would say with respect to the statute alluded to by his Hon. Friend, thatif this inquiry were prosecuted, and that House made a Court of Appeal, then would that statute be only so much waste paper ; and in a short time they would see the table of the House strewed with petitions from their constituents, complaining of the judgments, and the acts of the Judges on their Afferent Circuits. He insisted that if they made that House a Court of Appeal, the Judges of the land would be made the slaves of every caprice and passion that might agitate every passing popular assembly.—(Cheers.) With respect to the charge of the• Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, it might be divided into two parts—the first of which related to certain returns moved for last session by the Hon. Member for Monaghan, but which motion was aban. Boned by the Hon. Member. If the House would bear with him, he would now consider the first part of the charge, in which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had en deavoured to mix up other and extraneous matters. The Honourable and Learned Member had spoken of Nisi Pries sittings, and was completely mistaken in what he said thereon. Baron Smith did not sit at Nisi Pries. It was the Chief Baron who did so, and who sometimes deputed in his place some of the Puiane Barons. The Hon. and Learned Member had thrown out something that had occurred in Munster while the Learned Baron was attending the Lime rick assizes, which was a proof to him strongly indica tive of the anxiety of the Honourable and Learned Gentle man to rake up all the sweepings of the little indiscretions that might be committed by any of the Judges. But the real fact was that the Learned Judge in question had not for eleven years gone that circuit.—(Hear, hear.) He would now come to the returns alluded to, and he would show that there was not a shadow of a foundation for the charge made upon this point. Baron Smith had not sat in the Town Court at Mona ghan until the last day of the assizes. In the county of Down he had never sat longer than from half-past eleven in the morning till half.past six in the evening. He now came to Armagh, and to the assizes alluded to by the two Right Hon. Secretaries opposite, and to the statements relative thereto, upon which they.both relied. The Learned Baron was occu pied about four or five days in Armagh, and he held in his hand a letter from the High Sheriff of the county, stating, that when he sent 'the calendar to the Learned Baron at Mo naghan, there were only twenty-four cases upon it. At the assizes at Armagh the Court was opened at the usual hour, and sat until seven o'clock in the evening. The next day it sat from half-past eleven i'n the morning till half-past seven in the evening. Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated that it was the usual practice in Ireland for the Chief Justice to take the Bench at eleven o'clock in the morning, and for the Puisne Judges to sit about half an hour earlier. Now Baron Smith had sat each day at Armagh at eleven o'clock. He would come to the Saturday mentioned by the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies, since upon that head a statement had been made the other evening, upon which day the Court sat from half_past ten in the morning to half-past eleven at night. It could not sit later without infringing upon the Sabbath. The reason for late sittings was, that in four days the calendar had been trebled, on account, as the High Sheriff said, of the num ber of persons coming in who had been out on bail. The Judge, therefore, consulted how he should best dispose of these cases, and discharge the gaol ; and every one at all acquainted with County Assizes must see that it was a less evil to sit late, in order to discharge the gaol, than to allow it to stand over. On Monday the Learned Baron sat at half-past 11, and he sat for eighteen hours. He would ask any one in that House whether it could be rationally for one moment supposed that an old man of 75 would sit so long merely for the sake of sitting late. On that night he had been in bed only five hours, and he returned to his duty on Tuesday at half-past eleven in the morning, and at until past eight o'clock that evening. He took no fur ther rest at Armagh, but ordered his carriage, as he had a jour ney of 6(I miles to perform, in order to be at his post in time— (Hear)—and was that, he would ask, anything like a neglect of duty ?—(Hear.) If it suited the purposes of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin—if the Learned Baron, in his charges, had countenanced, instead of denouncing, agita tion, what an excellent ground it would be in the eyes of the Hon. and Learned Member for moving to the Learned Baron a vote of thanks of that House?—(Cheers.) The consequence of this excessive exertion on the part of Mr, Baron Smith was, that he was confined with illness to his bed for a consider able time afterwards. He trusted he had not said too much to explain this part of the charge. With respect to the second part of the charge—and to which he had now come—he felt confident his answer would be as conclusive as it was to the first part. It would be superfluous in him to remind the House of the state of Ireland last year, and of the allusions in his Majesty's speech as to the insecurity of' life and property in that country. Baron Smith was accused of neglecting his duty, and of mixing up political matters in his charge. He did not know how many charges he was accused of making, but in Baron Smith's last charge he had said, " that for the last two years he had thought it his duty, from the peculiar state of society in Ireland, to depart from the ordinary course in his address to the Jury, and to deliver a series of charges, in order to settle the minds of the people." The Learned Baron commenced his charges in the South of Ireland, and there spoke against predial agitation, but in the North lie pointed at Orange processions, and his charges—for instance, that delivered in the county of Antrim—contained excellent advice to the people to abstain from those processions. He had now come to the gravest charge made by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and he would show where he was at issue with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. Baron Smith sat with two Puisne Judges at a Special Commission, which was held periodically in Dublin, for the purpose Of dis posing of extraordinary cases. The charge to the Jury alluded to, was there delivered ; and he contended that it was the more properly made at that time, since there was not on the calendar any of the offences it pointed to; and sine there could be no fear of his biassing the minds of the Jurors. The House should besides bear in mind, that in Dublin—the very centre of Orangeism—Baron Smith had strongly alluded to Orange processions, and exerted himself to have them put down. In the commencement of the charge, it would be seen that the Learned Baron stated, that " when the state of the calendar, or of the country, called for observation from the Bench, he had given such admonition as the case seemed to him to require. When, on the other hand, no such necessity existed, he had not been in the habit of stringing together a chain of nothings, and thus wasting time that might be more beneficially em ployed. A consequence had been, that while upon the whole, during the many years for which he had a seat upon the Bench, he had seldom charged Grand Juries, yet during the last two years he thought it his duty repeatedly to address them. When the alarming situation of the country did not seem to he under, stood, he had sounded the tocsin, and sttbseqnent events proved that this was no false alarm. The audacity of factious leaders was augmented by impunity, and the progress of that sedition which they inculcated increased in the same proportion, until, upon this state of things, tardily came the Coercion Bill, at once to check the mischief and demonstrate its extent." He (Mr. Shaw) could not see what offence this could be to the Government, though it undoubtedly was of great offence to those factious leaders whom it denounced.—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Baron then goes into a consideration of the Coer cion Bill. Mr. Shaw here entered into a lengthened analysis of the remainder of the Learned Baron's charge, and went on to say, that he (Mr. Shaw) contended that the Learned Baron was entitled, if these were his opinions, to express them.—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Judge went on to say "that the Coercion Bill had been preceded by frightful tumult and lawless confe deracy and insurrection— secondly, its coercion produced a valeat quantum calm; and therefore, thirdly—to refuse for_ htod restorerepress ra tumult, hquilli s t u y pp t e ort u t e h l e . n la d w s , F d a ef r e w n cl as the , g iveness to this strong measure, was to pronounce that it was from so disparaging the higher o r d ers Ohio country. however, constitution , unpardonable as to assume that those who might constitute its separate Par liament, would be so culpably neglectful of its peace ; and he concluded with a hope that it would not be found necessary to keep it long in operation." Now he ( Mr. Shaw) had formerly alluded to a charge made by the L.arne i naron to the Orange. men in the north of Ireland. I'h:a cliar,re had been highly approved bf by the Government itself— (Hear, hear.) Yet every argument used in it was the same as those used by the Learned Baron in the charge, the consideration of which now, on the recommendation of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, they were about to refer to a Committee. He would now call the attention of the House to that charge. It was published by the House itself; and approved of in the report of the Committee, and still it contained everysingle charge now brought against the Learned Baron. Both charges were of the same nature. The one referred to predial, the other to political agitation—(Hear, hear)—both condemned the crimes so prevalent in Ireland; both tended to repress breaches of the peace, and both were within the Learned Baron's pro vince as a judge —namely, the observance of the laws of his country. The Learned Baron was not only justified, but bound i n duty to the course he had pursued. Even the word " vulgar," so much complained of by the Noble Paymaster of the Forces, was used in the former speech, in the same sense that it was in the speech at Dublin. They, therefore, did not only not object to that word, in the sense used in that speech, but highly ap. proved of it.—(Hear.) He talked, too, of tithes, and of the resistance to tithes leading to resistance to rents, and that was now brought forward as one at the charges against him.— (Hear, hear.) Now this charge was not only not censured by the House, but was treated with high commendation ; yet the same opinions, and some of the very words, which were thus commended by the House and the Government, were now to be made the subject of Parliamentary inquiry. As political of fences were likely to come before him on that Commission, he made a political charge. Mr. STANLEY—It was a Special Commission. Mr. SHA W—Both were Special Commissions.—(Hear, hear.) If the one was a Special Commission, so was the other. But would the Right Hon. Secretary say that more was said in the Dublin charge than had been said and approved of in the other charge—in the charge published and commended by the Government ?—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Baron might be guilty of impropriety, in thus delivering his sentiments ; but if so, he was equally guilty in that approved of and printed by the House as in the charge for which he was now to be brought before a Committee of the House. Now, after Baron Smith had made this charge in the North of Ireland, he was sent, during the time when the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies was Secretary for Ireland, on another Special Commission—(Hear, hear)—when, if his conduct in making them was culpable, or the opinions stated erroneous, he should have been the last man in Ireland to be picked out for such a duty.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the charge brought against the Learned Baron, of keeping late hours in his Court, he (Mr. Shaw) would ask if there ever was any communication made to the Learned Baron with respect to themby the Govern ment, save and except that the Government would support him against the charges of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin ?—(Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Shaw) could not but own that there was a portion of the charge of Baron Smith of which he disapproved when he read it—he meant that in which he had spoken of his own acts and services. But though he might be considered guilty of egotism, he (Mr. S.) did not think that mere egotism was a proper subject for a Parliamentary inquiry --(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin himself admitted that the Learned Baron was a distinguished Judge. Mr. O'CONNELL—I never said so. Mr. SHA W—lf the Hon. and Learned Member had not said it, some other person must have said it out of his mouth.— ( Hear and laughter.) The Hon. Member then referred to the report of a meeting which he found in the Dublin Evening Post, of Dec. 1827. At that period a Roman Catholic clergy man was tried for some offence in the Court of Exchequer, in Dublin, and acquitted, after which a meeting of the Catholic Association took place. At that meeting an orator rose and spoke of the Judge who had presided at the trial. He spoke of him as truly learned, and as having talent almost super human. He said that his mind was like a diamond, the bril liancy of which astonished as much as it pleased. vt ho now would they think this learned and talented Judge was? The very individual whom they were now to bring before their Com mittee.—(Hear, hear.) And who passed the eulogium ? That very Judge's present accuser.--(Cheers and laughter.) In 1827, the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, which Baron Smith ad vocated, had not been granted, and a Roman Catholic had been acquitted; the Judge was therefore learned, his talents were superhuman, and were pronounced as such by Daniel O'Connell in the Catholic Association. In 1834 the repeal of the Union is the subject of agitation; the Learned Baron is opposed to it, and has the audacity to proclaim his opposition, and now the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin declares he never called Baron Smith a Learned Judge.—(Cheers) He was only a poli tical preacher, sowing the seeds of disturbance and religious enmity.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member, who was more anxious to obtain his ends than scrupulous how he arrived at them—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—had stated the Learned Baron to be a political partisan, and as a Judge who encouraged disturbance and animosity; but he (Mr. Shaw) would say, that none who knew the Learned Baron could hardly believe him to be in earnest. Whatever slight indiscretion he might be guilty of in his language, he (Mr. Shaw) would defy the Hon. and Learned Member to show one act of agitation on the part of the Learned Baron.—(Hear, hear.) He defied him to point out one single act of corruption or of partiality, or any other crime. —(Hear, hear.) He would ask the House if they would grant this inquiry on the evidence before them ? Would they cast such an imputation on this distinguished and venerable Judge—the father of the Irish Bar—the pride of the Irish Bench, and now in his old-age, when he had reason to ex pect that he should retire from his long labours to peace and retirement, to drag him from his home toanswer such charges as were now brought against him ?—(Hear, hear.) Was there a generous mind in Ireland which did not recoil against such wanton cruelty and injustice ? He entreated the House to consider who was the person accused, and who the accuser. Who was the accuser ? The man admitted, even by himself, to be at the head of that ,agitation which distracted the country—the man who induced the passing a law against such 'practices, yet yio. lated its provisions, but contrived to escape the punishment he had incurred—the man who, at this present moment, was suffer. ing in his own person—no, not in his own person, but in the person of another—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—and in that there was a material difference—what the judge pronounced to be a libel on the Government, the man whom they could neither keep within his allegiance nor the bounds of the law, without inventions different from the ordinary laws of the kingdom, and contrary to its constitution.—(Cheers.) Was that the man on whose accusation they would drag this respectable and venera ble Judge before them ? Would they subvert the authority of the Judicial Bench, to place it in the hands of despotic fiends ? —(Mr. O'Connell here rose, and there were loud cries of " Order, order.") He (Mr. Shaw) said, that if they placed it in the hands of such men, they would spread panic and dismay throughout all parts of Ireland—they would render insecure life, property, and personal liberty—they would dispel all security and peaceful content, and make over Ireland to the midnight murderer and assassin, and even overturn the altars of our sacred religion. He (Mr. S.) was an advocate for Roman Catholic Emancipation, because he thought that they would be content, but he now saw that they cried aloud for the destruc tion of the Established Churoh, and for even the life-blood of Protestantism.—(Oh, oh.) He had been a sincere friend to the Roman Catholics, but he would never consent to yield to them in their attempts over the Protestant faith. He would entreat the House to pause before they agreed to a motion which would establish a most dangerous precedent against the independence of the Judicial Bench. If they agreed to it, they would stab to the heart the laws, liberties, and prosperity of Ireland, and with them would fall all hopes of amelioration in the unhappy people of that most unhappy of countries.—(Loud cheers.) After sit ting down, the Hon. and Learned Member again rose, and said that some friends near him stated, that the impression in the House was, that he had used the words " life's blood of Protes. tants"—(Cries of " Yes, yes") —his words were, life's blood, or life's blood of Protestantism.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL said no man wished to discuss the subject with more perfect tranquillity than he did, and he would, therefore, as much as possible, in what be had to say, endea vour to form a contrast to the spirit displayed in the corichicling part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speeCh. lie had had, in bringing forward the charge, a painful task to perform, but he gave to every Member the completest latitude for personal attack. In replying to the observations of the Hon, and Learned Member for the University, he would be as brief as possible. In making the charge he had been actuated by no personal or political feeling. He h a d moved for in quiry into the conduct of an Irish Judge, and his motion had beep granted. A motion had been made to rescind that resolution, and he would ask the House if they would stultify themselves by such a course of proceeding ? A great deal had been said about individual character; but what would be thought of the character of that House, if it were to re. verse a deliberate vote come to, but a week ago ? When, last Session, on a motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the House rescinded its vote on the malt tax, they did not hear the end of the affair for months; and would not there be the same result in the present instance, if the motion were agreed to ? The Hon. Member then recapitulated the charges he had brought against Baron Smith at first, and with little variation. The only new proof of the charge fur neglect of daty. he gave was, from a letter by a Mr. Egan, a solicit.er, describing the trial of the police at Castle pollard. It appeared from this, that the Judge did not come into Court till half.p as t th ree, and sat till half,past seven. The consequence of whi c h was, that one of the jury caught cold by sitting up all night, and had been deaf ever since.—(A laugh.) So far for the first charge of neglect of duty. That part of the case, he thought, was proved entirely and completely.—(Hear.) He (Mr. O'C ) had been called a prosecutor in this case. He did not mean to refuse the designa t ion. He was bound in this case to be a proseeutor ; and he was ' ready with the proofs of the chargek he had snbmitted.' Who was it was shrinking from the inqpiry ? It was the Hon. and Learned lktember lOr the Unive rs it y o f D u bli n, an d no t he ( Mr. I O'Connell). t was his party who was shrinking from the charge; and finding he had but one chance, he endeavoured to awaken the sympathy of the House by an appeal favour of a Judge venerable from his years. That, in his judgment, was an improper proceeding, and one to which the Learned Gentleman should not have had recourse —(Hear.) In the accusation which he (Mr. O'C.) had brought forward, he would appeal to the House had he displayed any symptoms cf party or of factious feeling?—(Hear, hear.) Why then was it sought to be made a party question ? In the defence which had been set up, many of Baron Smith's charges were referred to, while he had merely grounded his accusation upon one—that del n iyered at Dublin To be sure it might be said that in his notice he had used th • word " charges," He had done so, and he had done it from the i) ilitOui-ic. , sole motive that Baron :riiitit', i: , ,_. 7 el:4 ... itit 't, i l n ,'he Cons mittee of Inquiry, have any advan ois th, could bt derived from his other charges. He had do ft' m ere ly to gia`e them c eore an opportunity of defending him by re ne e to a f/ hisicsiairges. if any extenuating matter could be found in' Life r / 1 ' ; .b at t' th e li s Committee, and not that House, would have been the g roper place to have referred them to.—(Hear.) What was the de. fence set up for that charge ? Why, that there was poll deal agitation existing at the time in Ireland, and that therefore Baron Smith was bound to deliver the charge. He should &al with the fact before he came to the inference. In polat of fact. it so happened that for the preceding fifteen Yeats there never was a period in which there was less agitation than at the time that charge was delivered. The charge was deli vered in October, and from the preceding February not a single meeting had taken place in Ireland.—(Hear.) To the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland he would appeal for the truth of this statement. He was in Ireland for several months before, and could bear him (Mr. O'Connell) out in that statement. Si that the charge was not to put down agitation, but was itself the begininag of agitation. The agitation which had slumbered from the preceding February was recommenced by Baron Smith's "sounding the tocsin."—(Hear, hear.) Now, he would suppose the case to have occurred in England. He would suppose a Judge, in London, presiding at the Old Bailey, who took upon himself the duty of sounding the tocsin, by making a political harangue. Would that be tolerated ? Would the House for a moment refuse to grant an inquiry into his conduct ?—(Hear.) It had been said, indeed, that it was a " special commission" at which the charge was delivered, and that it was necessary for the Judge to deliver a political charge at it. He had often heard of special pleading; but grosser special pleading than that he had never heard. " You have approved," it was said to the House, "of political charges made at special commissions; this was a special commis sion, and, therefore, why not approve of this ?" More un founded reasoning could not be attempted to be imposed upon the House. That commission was appointed to be held six times a year, and the Judges presided there in their robes, and there was nothing " special" about it, no more than there was in the Recorder's own commission, where he presided in a King's Counsel's gown and wig. At a special commission Judges were unquestionably bound to explain the nature of the crimes which had called for the commission—but in a regular commission, such as that at Dublin, with no political crime upon the calendar, what excuse was there for launching into a long and inflammatory dissertation ?—(Hear, hear.) If the House refused this inquiry, let ihein look to the monstrous principles it would establish. It would establish the right o Judges at every commission to enter into political dissertations, to deliver lectures upon agitation, to neglect their duty,' and say to Grand Juries—" As there is nothing upon the calendar to call for observation, let us talk of the state of the country."—(A laugh, and hear.) That would be really the principle the House would establish. It was the principle contended for by the Hon. and Learned Member for the Uni versity of Dublin. It was right in the opinion of that Hon. Gentleman for a judge to dwell upon any topic or every topic but that to which it was his duty to advert ; it was quite right for him to spread the seeds of religious animosity, and to halloo Protestant against Catholic and Catholic against Protestant. That was the Learned Gentleman's doctrine. The House had seen in that gentleman's address a specimen of the party which he represented ; and; they might judge from it what a poli tical thraldom the people of Ireland had escaped. There was —and he regretted it—a party spirit fn Ireland, and the House had seen a melancholy instance of it that evening. But the defeated had a right to be angry. He could not quarrel with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman when lie reflected upon the desperation of his cause.—(Hear, hear.) There were two fac.. Goes in Ireland, directly and mainly opposed to each other. lint was it not desirable that justice should be fairly administered between them ? Was there not to be at least one spot free from the influence of factious feeling, to which both parties might look for impartial justice?—(Hear, hear.) Ought not the Bench at least to be free from partiality ? And could it for a moment be held that Baron Smith had steered clear of party feeling in the dispharge of his duty ?—(Hear.) Why to such lengths had he gone as even to include Cabinet Ministers in his dissertations.—(Hear, hear.) If the House then stultified itself so far as to refbse the inquiry, after having promised tt, who could suppose the people would have any con.. fidence in the administration of justice ?—Hear, hear.) And the only excuse they could offer to the country for so strange a step would be that the Hon. and Learned Member for the Uni. versity of Dublin, who, it would be recollected, was no party man—not at all influenced by any factious prejudice--(A. laugh)—had made an appeal tothe passions of the House which had influenced them to retrace their steps. When speaking or that Learned Gentleman he did not at all mean to deny that he had discharged his official duties efficiently and impartially. He (Mr. O'Connell) had no personal feeling in depriving the Learned Gentleman of the merit he deserved, and he could readily pass over his attempts to be severe upon him ; for, while he was rewarded by the confidence of his countrymen, and that they were pleased to think his exertions were of ser vice, he could afford, in the consciousness of the purity of his own motives, to overlook the attacks made upon hint. All he wanted of the House was, to give fair and impartial justice to Ireland; not to stiffer the kindly disposition which was just springing up towards his country to be thus wantonly crushed.—(Hear, hear.) He wanted them, in fact, to. preserve Ireland from her friends—from such friends as the Hon. Baronet, whose acts were at such direct variance, with their professions.—(Hear.) He wanted the Howie not tc,, suffer judicial negligence to pass over with impunity.—(Hear.) He should conclude where he had commenced, and call upon the House not to extend, in the present case, that imptinily" which had so long appeared to be the chartered right of a patty` in Ireland. For a long time the people of Ireland had been accustomed to see this impunity extended even to positive acts of oppression, and it was not till the accession of the present Ministry that they indulged a hope of fair and im , ,Artial justice. He implored the House then not to destroy the feel,- ing of confidence they had created, and stultify tkrpvtves by deliberately rescinding a decision which they had as deliberately formed. Colonel CONOLLY rose amid loud cries of " He did not deem it necessary to add any thing in defence of Baron Smith's character to the eloquent defence Of him which had been made by his Learned Friend tha IVerrxber fbr the University of Dublin. That address had been replied to by the Member for the City of Dublin, in a strain of scurrility—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh," and " Order.") The SPEAKER rose. The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman surely could not apply the term to the observations of the Member fbr Dublin. Colonel CONOLLY was ready to retract the observation, which, however, he had certainly thought he was perfectly jus_ . tified in making.—(Oh, oh.) He considered Baron Smith was very harshly treated by the course the House had pursued, for he thought, if there was one mass upon the Irish Bench snore free from censurable conduot than another, that man was Baron Smith.—.(hear, hear.) The Gallant Member's observations were scarcely audible in the gallery, from the cries of " order," and " Question, question." Sir R. PEEL was quite sure that the House, upon 11 )0 second discussion of the subject then under considuation, were most anxious to bring it to a close. The House were at present pieced in a very critical situation. The prei , edent they might establish by granting the inquiry would be one of very dan gerous tendency, and if the House were convinced of that, he (Sir R. Peel) felt convinced they would have the courage to re. trace their steps, and discharge the order.—(Hear, hear.) Tsg ' charges had been brought against Baron Smith, into which tt was asked to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. The Right Hem Gentleman on the other side said that it would be the interest of Baron Smith that the House should appoin. a Committes ). " Here are distinct charges," said he, brought against Barae, Smith, and surely it is only justice to him to inquire into them.". Would the House sanction the principle involved in, suph, ri proposition ? Would the House establish a priugiple which would hind them to grant an inquiry into every chars , e of ju. tlicial indiscretion which might happen to, be plausibly ported ? Was the public time to be occupied by such inviesti, gation ? Surely before the House granted an inmsisy thp• ought to consider whether er not the charges brought Baron Smith involved an accusation against his impartiality or his integrity.—(Hear, hear, hear).--The firs.% charge brought agains: him was a charge of neglect' (Hear, hear, hear,) l'he proof of which amounted to the fact that three days, consecutively the Banns had devoted, upon an avcsage,. fifteen hours to the discharge of his official duties.-..(Hear.) That was absolutety the amount of the first chm,ge,.—that negleet. Wen though by devoting too much tape: tO charge of his duty he may have impaired A1)5,4424411, still is he chargedwith having neglected it.--(Hear, bear.) He (Sir I, Peel) did not mean to say that trials shoU,ld not commeneti,as, early in the morning as pos,silsl,e-,,at ten o'clock suppose, k but then, before the House concluded upon the guilt or the,impro_ Priety of Baron Smith's conduct in sitting at a latex hour, it would he only right to inquire what were the habits of the country.-4Hpar, hear.) Let the House itwiiire were profes. sional gentlemen in Ireland in the habitofh,oldingtheircoosislta.- I ions in the afternoon ?—(A laughor- was it in. the morning and was not the habit of the bench then the result of the habit of the bar ?—(Hear, bear.) Why then should that be ~, laid . tq Baron Smith's charge as a crim e which was the practice of ts.„ Judges merely to con,venieuee the profession. Vietna the ,ame principle as it was sought to support the present charge against the Irish Judge, might a charge of a ',similar nature he maintained against his Majesty's MilliAers with respect to the early sittings of the House,--(Hear, hear, hear.) The charge against Baron Smith imputed te„ him no crime of partiality—contained no imneachmsntof integrity,—(H ear x,_ and if the House entertained it, they would be taking the moss effectual means to ieterfere with the independence, and to da mage the character of the Irish Judges.—(Hear.) By what evi dence it was sought to support the charge against Baron Smith i• The Hon. Gentleman said he would bring witnesses—. be said he would not rest upon the official returns before the House, but that he would institute an inquiry into. the habits of the Judge, to show that be was accustomed to enter the Court at a very late hOW. Would it not havebeen at least fair to have given Baron Smith some sort of notice that such a thing was intended ? Should it not at least have been hinted to bins, that fault was found with those habits said to be peculiar to him ? ,But no; without the Learned Baron's having been previously apprised of kt, a serious charge is brought against him, greiunded upon an alleged habit, in which it did not appear that he differed from the other Judges.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir Robert peel) would appeal to the Noble Lord opposite, if it were not customary to open the Quarter Sessions at a very late hour of the day ? He would appeal to him to know what was the practice in his own county ? (Hear, hear.) And if ally charge hod been brought upon the subject, would that House think itself called . upon ,„ institute any inquiry upon the subject ? (Hear, hear, he .1 . .) what course theyvt uld Again, let the House well confider 3 k P r ly r f it A ,e4e 'lce !tal the ali• 1 1