The Sun. — London, England, 1831-07-06 00:00:00

be fitivetneuent. lie gave the Noble Lord (Russell) 'credit for his intentions when he said that the object of his Bill was to maintain unimpaired the prerogative eof the Crown, the just authority of both Houses of Parliament, and the rights and liberties of the people of England. He believed the Noble Lord was sincere in his statement, but what was the plan proposed by Croto well ? He would take it from the statement of Mr. Hume. That Hon. Member said that Cromwell, in the Parliament which be called in 1647, deprived of their right of elec tion, all the small boroughs moat exposed to corruption. Of 100 Members who represented England, 2.70 were chosen by the counties, and the remainder of them were elected by London and the moreconsiderable corporations. An estate of 2001. annual value was necessary to entitle any one to vote; now on a comparison of the system..., This most material difference was to be found, that Cromwell in his changes paid respect to the Corporations, which the pririciple of this Bill went wholly to destroy. And that an estate of two hundred pounds sterling which would, now-a-days, amount to between 6001. and 700/. was to be lowered to the almost no qualification of 101. Admitting that Parliamentary Reform was necessary, and that the demand was for an uniform instead of a varied election—a position which he only admitted for the sake of the argument—he could not but feel surprised that Ministers should not have grounck 1 their measure in ?acne such way as to have erenfined the elections to persons of property and undisputed respectAlity. By such a course that corrupt system which had been so much spoken of as existing in boroughs, and parti cularly in those places popularly represented, would have been removed. It had been proved by experience that it Ministers had introduced any measure of a more restricted nature, it would have been easy at any time to have ex tended its provisions ; but it had always been difficult, and in many instances dangerous, to attempt to curtail liberties when they had been once extended. As, however, a Noble Friend of his had stid, this measure was undoubtedly and avowedly a measure of experi ment, and if Ministers failed in it, what would be the consequences no one could foresee. He would a.k if either his Majesty's Ministers, or any respectable persons in the kingdom, could suppose that the highly agitated hopes mid feelings of the people would ere: again quietly subside into an acquiescence into that system under which we had been now living (should the present measure fail), and which he conscientiously believed to be by fir the more beneficial and discreet system. He felt canaileet there was not an individual in that House who teas ready to suggest a remedy should the roe:nitre fail. And when he looked around him, and saw the incentives there were to action—when lie referred to his own country, and observed the prudent management of the inhabitants there, of their domestic affairs—the marked prudence even in their speculations, he could not help being astonished at the political mania that now raged throughout that country. He did not hail these ebullitions of enthusiasm with the same eagerness as did Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the Heuse. He could not believe they were the harbingers of either good government or social order ; and whatever the result might be he was certain that they augured no good er any hope of permanence even in the state of things which would succeed the passing of the measuro.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If the people were eccired on this occasion, that excitement was attributable not to their own conduct, but to the conduct of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who, while they were out of office, held up their imaginary grievances, but grievances which, while they had been in office, they had not been able to ap ply any substantial remedy to. He could not help adverting to the comparison of popular feeling forty years ago made by the Noble Lord who brought in the Bill, and the popular feeling that existed at present. Ile was sensible that if lie brought forward statements in detail to contradict the analogy that bad been drawn, he should be met by corresponding speeches respecting every town. But admitting the pro position of the Noble Paymaster of his Majesty's Forces, that a Reform and an extensive Reform might be necessary in the representation of some parts, an univer sal sweeping measure, like the present, could on no account be called for. Again, as to the Union between Scotland and England, and the subsequent Union between England and Ireland, being made (and it certainly had been so argued) a ground for the disfranchisement of many of the towns of England ; it was clear that both the teeotch and English Commissioners struggled `hard to have as extensive a system of franchise for their respective counties as they possibly could ; what was done was very soon considered on all hands to be then equitable and just, but it was as different from the present sweeping measure as day was from night ; and if the present arbitrative form of legislation was to be adopted he could not see why the same sort of policy should not enter into dealings with private property. He was sorry that the Noble Lotd (the Secretary fur Foreign Affairs) was not now in his place, but he trusted the House would soon have tic benefit of his talents and of his experience —the opinion of that Noble Lord on the disfranchisement of the hie!' forty- shilling freeholders was so clear sail so de. cisive, and his reasons for opposing that measure so strong, that he (Mr. Dundas) would advert to it. The Noble Lord said, it had been argued in support of that measure that it would put an end to a vast deal of fraud and perjury that was usually committed by that class of voters, but he, the Noble. Lord, said he was decidedly opposed to such a sweeping act of in justice, and that it was most unjust to make the exist- ence of one evil the cause for committing a greater. Now, it was more unjust in the present instance to dis franchise individuals by this Bill, than the measure of dis franchising the forty-shilling freeholders, for in some degree the latter persons received compensation by the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Bill, while the per eons proposed to be disfranchised by this Reform Bill would receive no compensation whatever. He tvould admit, for the sake of argument, that the English Reform Bill was founded on strict justice, and that it was proper to dis franchise so many boroughs; but if the English Bill was just, what was the principle upon which the Scotch Bill was founded ? Why was not the same principle applied to both countries? It was said that the object was to destroy the nomination of Members, amid to extend the right of voting to great towns, but when lie found the measure for Scotland conducted upon a dif ferent principle he was at a less to divine by whet rule the Ministers had been governed. The principle of the Eng • fish Bill seemed to be to disfranchise boroughs, while in Scotland it was to disfranchise counties. Many of the Scotch counties contained a greater population than some of the English counties. Another material point was this, that while in England a town of two thousand in habitants was to be disfranchised in schedule A, and a population of under two thousand in schedule B, the whole of the disfranchisement as regarded Scotland was to operate in a far different way. When he was told that the signs of the times called for Reform, lie must confess that it was his opinion that the signs of the times called on them to unite and rally round the institutions of the country. An Honourable Baronet (the Member for Knaresborough) last night stated in his speech that he would touch with delicacy on the events which had taken place on the continent. He was right in eking so, but he (Mr. Dundas) recollected that nine months ago, during the Duke of Wellington's Administration, when he had the honour to second the ad dress to his Majesty, he stated that he apprehended danger would arise to the constitution of this country front what had taken place in France. He admitted that the revolution in that country arose from the arbitary measures of the King and his Ministers, rather than from tl e bad fee ings the people ; but there was now al individual of property in France who would not exchange his promised hope of security, for the Govern ment of the House of Bout bon. Never was there an occasion when there was less necessity than the present to trample under foot those institutions which raised this country to its present eminence, and which have conferred on the peopl e a greater share of happiness that has hitherto fallen to the lot of any other nation on the face of the cent'. I l v V a hen he thus spoke in defence of the Constitution, he raising his voice perhaps for the last time in its be half. H e th ought it might be compared in some degree to the works of the creation, respecting which a philosopher had said, that if parts of them appeared inconsistent with each other, yet that the whole was perfect : o And if e ac h system m vatron roll,Alike essential t o the atnir The least confusion but iiionnge,whole'l That system only, b ut the Whole n i o n t iV fall." Captain BERKELEY suppo r t e ,l the Bill to its whole exten t. It had been said that the people of England had made use of this great measure as a cl oa k and disguise for revolution, and still worse proceedings. lle (Cap taut Berkeley) considered this a most gr oss libel ot; the people of England, for he was satisfied as far as his own constituency went that no such feeling was in existence. He trusted that when the present measure was passed. into a law, all enmity would be dropped, and he hoped the cuckoo cry of the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill, which gave so much offence to parties, would be buried in the same grave with the raven cry.—(Hear.) Sir L MALCOLM was sorry to see in these debates so little reference made to the Colonies. Yet in one of them alone we exercised a Government over eighty millions of men, to whom thirty more had recently been added . Ile belonged to Schedule B, and was, consequently, among chi. nomination boi magi's. It was said that per Sous repre senting these boroughs were dependent on those who no minated them. The answer to that was given by the Right Hon. Member for knareshorough, who, in painting his condition, had described that of other Borough 'Mem tiers. The Hon. Member for Kircudbright had talked of persons being dependent for their vote on others under the operation of the present system. Why he knew of no condition of civilised society in which !nen were not de pendent on each other. There teas not one of the objec tions which he had to the present that he did not state to the last Parliament; and now, after calmly and delibe rately reconsidering those objections, he only found his persuasions upon the subject more and more confirmed. If there were any one thing more than another established' by the experience which history afforded, it. swat this— that to yield to popular clainonr was one of the grossest et roes which those in poseession of political power could possibly commit. There was little to he apprehended from popular elanaotr at any time, or almost under any circum stances, in this country. Front an early periral of life he had always held it to be an its - ra',Mtable truth, that of all the people upon 'aaalit, the English were the most difficult to he: i2al into any offence against the laws ; and though great pains had been t iken at different times for the purrse of exciting a.ppre- Iteredetea in the event of the present Bill being raejee:;ted, vet most advisedly he undertook to say ; that iis not pass ing that House would never peoelnee. The slightest degree of violence out of dunes t 'tar 'the English, above all man kind, submitted the most patiently to the dominion of the law. In the. - earlier periods of our history, the boroughs which were to be disfranchised under the present Bilk heal been represented by the sons of Noblemen, or by be ntlernen resident within them or in their in:met:ate vicinity ; but that was at a time long Isacote cur domestic trade, our commerce with the other nations of the world, or our colonial relations had attained to any thing like the height or importance which belonged to them during the last and present centuries. By degrees strangers came to those bit , rou a hs ; and at length they almost ceased to have stny l'e presentatives excepting men, who, when extending the fame and property of their native l ts 4 in the remotest quarters of the world, net>tte tetiSed to cherish an attach ment to her institution!) acrd an admiration of the princi ples of justice r.. 4 aarional freedom upon n hich they were founded L anti r Lo, coming home to enjoy the rewards of tleeir long and laborious efforts, desired to take a part it the government and councils of the country, front which they , had been so long separated, but from which their af fections had never been estranged. Those were the class of men who supplied the places of those who had previ ously filled all the boroughs in the kingdom, and by the Reform Bill all persons of that stamp would in future be excluded from the representation of the interests to which they belonged, and from any chart In the councils of their country. As matters stood under the system by which the teUntry rose to its pre sent p'teli of wealth end greatness, not only were the people represented in that House, but the interests of the cotttstry were represented ; but haw would those in terents now stand ? He would leave to the other Hon. Members to plead the causes of the C , nadas, of the West Indies, of our possessions in New South Wales and in Africa ; and he would strictly limit himself to the East Indies. He had mentioned 0n , .. peculiakity of Englishmen, Ie should now advert to another ; it wa., that wherever they went, they invariably entertained a strong predilection for what was callest the British Constitution. Now, really, he was unable to comprehend the policy which went to destroy that feeling ; he thought, on the contrary, that the great aim of legislation should he, to uphold that feeling, and encourage its being cherished in the breasts of 'hose who were exiled from their native land. As re spected India, it was of the highest importance that Par liament +should legislate upon sound principles. It was emtally a matter of certainty, that no man possessed useful information, unless he happened to enjoy the advantages of local and practical experience ; but if there were an end to the nomination boroughs, there would-, at the same time, he an end to the introduction of Members into that House possessed of the requisite knowledge for treating subjects connected with our empire in the East. If the Bill were carried, which he hoped it would not be, he trusted that something would be done towards catablish ing for the colonies something like a constituency, and so affording them the means of malting themselves heard in that House. He wee not so unreasonable as to con tend that a constituency could be formed out of the native inhabitants of Countries which we had conquered ; wither (lid he suppose that a good constituency cool(' ha formed tout of the British residents in those places ; but he thought that a constituency advantageous to the best interests of the mother country might be formed out of the men who had large stakes in those colonies. Having made these few remarks upon what appeared to him a matter of the very highest importance, he would next advert to . subject of less magnitude, but of which on trift,ing use had been made, and was likely to he made, in the course of the debates upon the Reform : he alluded to the measures which • 114(1 been resorted to for the purpose of effecting the adop tion of the Bill.—(Hoar, hear.) The oratory es...seated to upon the present occasion—he meant with rference to the menaces—reminded him of the first piece of oratory he had ever heard in his life, the conclusion of which was certainly the most effi.!cti , :e conclusion he had ever listened to. Ile was on board an Indiaman that returmd from a long voyage; the First Lieutenant of a man-of-war came oh board, and being a person of very small stature, he found it necessary, in order to snake himself seen, to use the cap stan as his rostrum. Ile addressed the sailors—he en larged upon the vast advantages presented to those who entered into his Majesty's service...An expressed his full conviction that the persons ht Was then addressing came the entire length of their long voyage for the express pur pose of entering Into that glorious service ; " sod now," said he, " presuming that every one of you sill be delighted with so early an opportunity of gratifying your wishes, give three cheers for the King ; and any man who does not, I will have him tied neck and heels and thrown into that boat.".--(A laugh.) That certainly was the most effec tive piece of oratory he had ever heard ; but ht deprecated the application of such oratory to the business of that House. Sir F. VINCENT began by observing that the op. posers of the Bill were only the delegates of those who sent thtet there ; but it was to be remembered, that if there were delegates of the people in that Hoitse, there were also delegates of certain Noble Petra, and to those Noble Peers, or other nominator.; to boroughs, pledg es h ai l been given which net one of their nominees would ever think of violating; and surely if the owners, as they were eaFe(l ) of those boroughs had a right to obtain and exact the redemption of such pledges, had not the people to equal right to demand pledges? Suppose a oantlidate ap peared at the hustings and profcssed himself a moderate Reformer, might net an elector get up and sty, will you support or will you not, the plan of moderate Reform, which his Majesty's Government has proposed to Parlia ment ?—(Hear and a laugh from the Opposition.) Y es , notwithstanding these cheers and laughter, he tvotlll re peat that it was a plan of moderate Reform—fully as mo derate as the people would be satisfied with.—(Hear.) Under circumstances such as he had described, pledges of the nature he had stated might he demanded from can didates, but those pledges would merely bind the individual giving them to the support of the principle of the measure, not to every minute and insignificant detail. The Bill that was then before the House was in prin ciple the same as that of last session, it went to destroy nomination boroughs—it gave representatives to large towns not hitherto represented—it gave additional re presentatives to large counties--and it extended the elective franchise to men whose respectability afforded a sufficient guarantee that the, franchise would be properly exercised. Those were the great principles of the Bill, and to the support of those would the friends of the Bill be pledged. The people had during the last fifteen years made a progress in intelligence and education, and know ledge of their own rights, and skill in as•erting, as the result of the last election most distinctly proved ; and now that he had touched upon the subject of those elec tions, he would say that they had been conducted in a manner highly creditable to the intellectual character and good feeling of the people of England. He could not but repel with indignation the accusation that the late elections were the result of popular commotions, and be would repel, with equal indignation, the charge that the people expected that the passing of the Reform Bill would lead to reducing the prices of the necessaries of life. No, they had no such expectation; hut they did expect that the Reform Bill would lay the foundation of a series of measures which would afford them substantial relief. Colonel TRENCH began by adverting to the address of the freeholders of Surrey, published by %Ir. Drummond, and to the use made of it by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir James Mackintosh) at the other side of the House on the Preceding evening. The Gallant Officer complained that the Right Hon. Gentleman bad not made enough of the address in question, to do justice to the sentiments of its iirthor, contending, that if lie had continued his quotation somewhat further, it would have made much less in fa vour than . again s t hi s argument. For his part he fully greed with the w r it er o f that address, and felt it his duty to caution the House and the country to be on their guard tgainst a Government which could impute to inadvertence an alteration, of the effect and tendency of which they had been apprised by the gentleman who drew up the Bill. In his opinion the Noble Lord had altered the Bill much or the worse, when compared with those Parliamentary iteforni measures which had formerly betas introduced into! that House utie!er the same auspieea. While the present Bill had been in agitation infinite pains bad been taken to influence the bad passions of the people ; he would confess %' 6 0 1 e p u e t e v o % U r 'l7l t b o e a i r n r i t v b e ; that if the fatal day of outraagliedanidia lie should look to theM, House of isotds, because it was bete r able to cantroul with itidgrnent those measures which might he forced on the House of Commons either by violence from without, or by eloquence and passion from within ; and he therefore trusted, that should so undesired an event arise, the elder Aristocracy of the other House, and the younger Aristo cracy of that, would be found tohave the he ar t s o f t og _ ~ islimen, and to be reads' tn withstand those violent at tempts which, if Snecessful, must inevitably cause the ruin Of the more valuable part of the Constitution. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose to explain. H e did net see why blame was to be attributed to him for not having quoted the whole of Mr. Henry Drummond' s ad dress ; and the chaste L'iOught against bins on this account by . the Ge‘ila'ut Colonel, put him in mind of an aneciote o M;. Canning, who chancing to meet him (Sir J. Mack- , intosh) in the lobby the day after a gentleman in his • speech h a d intr o d uce d a ver y l ong siS'astatiou from Virgil, asked l im, " When does Ana. friend intend to give us the rest of the st'taiitl i"—(A laugh) Now that he was on hts `sews he would take the opportunity of expressin g hi s reget that a Morning Journal of great influence and con siderable circulation hail represented the c onclusion of his , speech of the previous night exactly es , r-t.ra'-Y t t the meaning it had been intended to VoliVeY. That Journal had made him s!.os'a ti speech with giving the opinion that pontie , .l privilege was property. He would appeal to who had heard him, whether the whole gist of his argu ment throughout his speech, as well as the last sentence of it, was not intended to express that he held the very contrary opinion.—( Hear). Mr. G. VERNON (as we understood) said that great stress had been laid by the Anti lieformers on what had taken place at tte. late elections, for the purpose of allowing that the people had been misled into giving their support to those who professed their readiness to support the Go verninent in the present measure that had so entirely at. tracted the attention of the country ; and in particular a great deal of taunting had been thrown out about the cry that had been raised of " the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill." Now he was ready to acknowledge that he himself hail assisted in teaching that phrase to the people—(Cheers)—and he had done this in older to en deavour, as much as possible, to prevent the country from mistaking pretended ft iends for real friends of the mea sure; and for the purpose of showing that the adoption of that, or some similar phrazie, was of great service, he might just mention the word " Reformer" was, in large letters, applied to his anti•reforming predecessor, from which the necessity of having some test to assure the people of the intentions of the candidates was made evi dent. But though he had taught the people that phrase, lie did not mean to teach them that they were to cavil about pet , y• details in considering the claims of the candi dates that presented themselves, fir he well knew that if that was attempted they never would be able to arrive at any satisfactory result. It was their general adoption of this phrase that was the reason of the phenomenon which the Hon. Member for Aldborough had not been able to solve. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that such a feeling was never known to have existed before. And why ? Because never before had there been presented a practical measure to which the people could give their hearty support, and by which they could find it worth their while to stand. Pe ; for one, was ready to admit that moderate Reform would not have satisfied him. When the genius of Re form should appear before him, lie would not crouch to it with dismay or dread—he would not be content with inertly sacrificing to it a hecatomb of venal boroughs—he would not grudge it those offerings which were necessary for its establishment upon a sure and permanent foundation: on the contrary, instead of attempting to appease it, as the Motto() Pagans did their idol gods, he would be prepared to hail its approach as the approach of an era of good. He would tender to it all that savoured of nomination, as a reasonable homage and a dutiful expiation—be would glory in those very effects which its appearance peomised ; and which bad so deeply excited the auger of the Anti-Re formers, though they also offered their little modicum of incense, and trembled as they offered it. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) had taken an op portunity to deprecate the introduction of all party feeling; and to express a hope that this, tabtorhing subject would be discussed with that ebolness and deliberation which the great intetevs which it involved so fairly demanded at the hands of the Legislature. If by party feeling the Right lion. Baronet meant the acrimony of party feeling, no one would more cordially join in the furtherance of that sentiment than himself; at the Same time bear ing testimony that from no one could it have come with a better grace than from the Right Hon. Baronet, who was ever most careful to avoid any thing like an approach to such an exhibition on his part.—(Hear, hear.) But he thought that in addition to this abstinenee front party feeling, it was still mots, neteaSary that gentlemen should make a et - :::halo with themselves to abandon all the pre judices to which they had formerly submitted their minds. There were two hinds of pr•ejudices—the one an adhe rence to old-established feelings, which by long !mint had become, as it were, a portion of our nature; and the ether a too great readiness to snatch at speculative theories, in the expectation that they would lead to those result) which a sanguineness of disposition had deplete 1 as de sirable. There was another feeling against which lion. Gentleman would also do well to guard themse lv e s, and that was the working of self-interest. He knew that it was easy to gloss this over, with the idea that for the re presentatives of close boroughs to vote for their easitinetion was tantamount to the cemmittal of a Sort of suicide, or perhaps patritide would be a still better term, in addition to which a favourite argument with the Anti-Reformers IV as, that every thing in the Constitution of the country was so sacred, that it could not by any means admit of a change. In his opinion, however, the gentlemen who taok this view ef the subject ) took a narrow view of it. The Constitution of the country was a practical thing, instituted for the good government of that country, ant! therefore it would always be wise to call in aid of it the lights that experience might be able to afford. One of the reasons why political economy bad fallsti so Much into dierepnte l;ecanse it attempted to lay down a theory for the government of certain matters, without pay ing sufficient attention, having sufficient regard to the facts that were in existence. But if this was objectionable in political economy, how touch more so would it be in le gislature. The present plan, however, Was not open to this objection c it vas One unlit uponpractical experience, and taping their stand on the ground of a free Press, he thought that they might gist without dismay at the alarm that had been raised of violence on the part of the many on the one hand, or on the other of tyranny' op the part of the few. In his opinion they ought not to admit into this Reform T3ill anything that had not been already tried, and by adopting this course, they would have the advan tage of having experience for their guide in all that they did. In saying this, he did not intend to intimate that he was pinning his faith upon what took place in the time of the Plantagenets and the Tudors ; but his desire was, that if possible every improvement &Fmk! at once be adopted, so as to tender the Measure, as far as practicable, a complete measure, awl not leave it open to any subse quent alteration.—(Hear, hear.) A great deal of re ference had been made to the feeling which had returned the present Parliament, and it had been said that the ma jority which now existed in &vent. or the Bill, had been pinduted hy Making the minds of the people fe verish, which in its turn had been produced by the Go vernment for party purposes : but the gentlemen who made use of this argument might as well suppose that lightning was produced by those philosophere who constructed and diluted eenductors to diatrin it of its dang-er,(Hear, hear.) The only desire of Govern ment was, to avert the peril that on coming into office they had already found to exist : the Government did not claim this as their thunder. On the contrary, it might be attributed to that first great cause, who " rode in the whirlwind ; and directed the storm," for it was he who had inspired his creatures with the spirit of liberty, and had given them free will wherewith to execute it. Another argument made use of by the opponents to this measure was, to refer to the victories and prosperity and power of the country as it had existed under the representative aye tens, which it Wes the object of the present Bill to de molish ; but it should he remembered, that while our an nuals were full of victories, they were full also of reverses, that while they told of our grandeur they told also of our losses ; and that while the Gazettes contained an account of our triumph, they contained also a list of the bank ruptcies which had followed upon those triumphs. But the grand mistake was, to suppose that the principle of the Bill was disfranchisement. Its principle was not dis franchisement, but enfranchisement; for the great object that it purported to affect was, the association of a larger body of the people with the Government, and by that means to improve their patriotism, and identify their feel ings with the Legislature. The excitement that the agita tion of this measure had produced among the people he looked upon as a good instead of an evil: and even if the Government were mistaken in the advan tages that were expected to accrue f rom t h e Bil l, h e its should say that having been brought forward would be a benefit (unless it contained things absolutely pre judicial), inasmuch as it would have taught the people to look forward to a change from that system which had subjected them to so many grievances, The Gallant Ge oeral (Sir J. Alalcolm) had complained that under the proposed alterations the colonies would not be represented ; but h e begged to obsetee, that they were sent there to go vern the colonies, and not to be governed by them. With respect to the Gallant General himself, every Member 'oust feel obliged and henefitted by the perusal of the ela erate works which that Hon. Gentleman had written upon India, and which he would venture to say would rive more information to the House than five Members sent from that country could ; and, therefore, with such sources of information at tt:eir command, he did not see why it should be expected that gentlemen coming from those distant parts should have the priVilege of stepping into the Hearse through the Medium of a cheque on their hankers. But another class of persons who, according to the Gallant General's view, would be excluded by this change in the representation of the country, were officers who had spent the early part of their lives in the service of the country : on this point, however, he begged to re mind the Gallant Generl that Sir S anuel Hood, Sir Alan Gerdner, and Lord Cochrane, all of whom came within the description of the Hon. Gentleman, had found seats in that House through the representation of places much more populous than many that were about to receive their enfranchisement through the medium of this (Hear. ) The real question, however, alter ali t carne to tllie —whether it was releisaVes that the system tif nomination which nosy existed should be still allowed to exist ? If it were thought that such a system was wise, he certainly was of opinion that it would be much better to adopt a direct theory on that subject, rather than to allow the thing to take place in the dark, without knowing how far it might extend, or what might be its absolute re ults. To what purpose was the solemn mockery of an election, with its writs, and returning officere, and hustings, and candidates, if a little inconvenience, a little expense, a little of the wi dam of our ancestors, in ;the shape of drunken brawls and tipsy fights, were the sole flowers that were to he gathered from that decayed field of bribery and corrup tion? It was said, indeed, that the system of nomination tended to time advance and encouragement of raising talent; but, in his opinion, an extended franchise, where success depended on the display of ability and the soundness of character, was much better calculated to produce emula tion, and to elicit the genius of the country.—((tear, hear.) 'The next point for their consideration was the extension of the suffrage as proposed by the new Bill, and on this bead much cavilling had arisen as to the anomalies to which this extension gave rise. But it was remarkable how suddenly sensitive the feelings of the Anti-Reformers had become upon this topic. In the system that at pre sent existed, they had never been able to di-cover any of these anomalies ; and yet there were some who had the hardihood to assert that the anomalies of the present system were much more numerous and much more glaring than those contained in the new system according to the Reform Bill. With respect to the ex pence of elections, he could as sure the House that an alteration in that respect was not pro posed from any selfish feeling on the part of the Members of the Government, but because they felt that the Reform Bill would accomplish no Reform without that accotnpani ment ; and that to leave the expellee as it now was, would virtually be to put the returns in the hands of the rich, and not in the hands of the people.—(Hear, (rear.) The word " Revolution" bad been used again and again, to scare the timid from their purpose ; but he would tell gentlemen, that though they ought to fear their own pre judices, they n ed not fear the people whom they would enlighten by this measure, for the result would be the conciliation of the people, whom they would identify with their interests as soon as they had associated them with their power. At the Reformation they had left their civil liberty at the mercy of the Sovereign, for the sake of their spiritual freedom; at the Restoration they left their liberty for the sake of their loyalty ; at the Revolu tion they left their loyalty for the sake of their liberty ; but now, at the present juncture, they were fortunately in a situation to be able to consider both their loyalty anti their liberty.—(Cheers.) Allusion in the course of the debates on the Bill last Session had been made to Burke's day-state He (Mr. Vernon) would be content to see that star set—he would be content to see its lustre diminished, and its splendour fall away; and he said so because he felt that it could only be extinguished by the superior light of that day of ta hich it was the harbinger—of that sun which was now commencing to dawn upon them in token of its future glory, and which would bring the diffusion of light and the equality of liberty with healing in its wings; even now that long-expected luminary was rising out of the deeps of moral right—even now it was reple nishing itself from its original sources of existence with fresh energy and renovated life; and never would it set n those itamo regarded it with reasonable and reveren tial homage—on those who were prepared to walk in the paths of liberty, cheered by its lustre and guided by its light.—(Hear, hear.) Sir E. DEERING rose to oppose the Bill. With respect to what had been said about the anomalies existing ie our Constitution, he thought that it could be shown that they were the cause of benefit rather than of disad vantage. Mtn of influence in other countries had tried to assimilate the Constitution of their own country to that of Great Britain, but by neglecting to borrow our anomalies, the utility of which they did not understand, they had in general failed, anti had always fallen short of that prac tical utility which we found in our Constitution. With reference to this Bill, he must say, that the Noble Lord who introduced it had not established the existence; if any great practical grievance, and he accordingly could find no practi cal benefit which would result from the Bill. The two lead ing objections which he took to the Bill were—the nature of the enfranchisement, and the improper distribution of the peter cf electing representatives. Ile objected to the 101. qualification, because it disqualified and disfranchised a large part of the country, and would be unequal in its operation in the towns and in the country. In the former it would give almost universal suffrage ; in the latter it would embrace but a limited number of voters. It would give, also, great advantages to the 10/. voters in towns over the occupier of time soil. The Noble Lord who brought in the Bill professed a wish to give the landed interest its full share of influence ; hut by the distribution of the re presentatives the landed interest would he left in a consi derable minority. It was said that the Reform was to uphold the kingSs prerogative; bet, though he could not foresee what might happen, he much doubted that this Bill would have any such effect. Without claiming any foresight, he might venture to affirm that it would be the forerunner of great and extensive changes. The Noble Lord bad referred to a former plan he had enter tained of leavineethe small boroughs to return one Mem leet ; and he had explained, that the reason telly he thought that plan now not practical was, that a reformed Parliament would instantly do away with that other Member —(Heat., hear.) The Bill, however, in its pre sent state, left many anomalies ; anti thus it laid the ground for a more extensive Reform than it introduced ; ad c o l o i pened Ni, a t s i f e e a d r o f o u r l to to v c a o st nte d m i n ni p er tt e: . ; t con did s n e g o u t enc of He e impute any ulterior or improper motives to the Nelde Lord, he did not doubt his honesty, but could he answer for his allies?—(llear, bear.) The Noble Lord had now with him, and ranged on his side all the turbulent and seditious spitits of the country-=men disposed to run down and tie stroy all the ancient and venerable institutions of the country. He had hearth nothing to convince him that there was any practical grievance, and he was quite sure that the remedy was worse than any theoretical or practical defect in the Conetitution. MILES addressed the House, amidst such confu sion, owing to Members leaving the House; to repeated calls for for order and a somewhat singular anti shrill hurrah, which every now and then encouraged the Hon. Member, and was beard loud above the other voices.— W e node: stood the Han. Member to advert to the con tinuance of taxation as a cause of the cry of Reform ; and tosmy, that if the taxes which pressed on industry had been removed, and a tax on property to the amount of 51: per cent , substituted for them, the country would have heard nothing of the demand for Reform. Ile saw no option left but to accept this new and untried Constitution, or boldly to take his stand on the Constitution which had been handed down to us by the wisdom of our ancestors; which had carried us through many dangers and difficul ties, and been the safeguard of the country for ages. As lie was not a theorist he had no hesitation in making his c h o ice, and he was determined to hold fast by the Consti. tutthough he might be classed by the Noble Lord tgrthe ignorant worshippers of antiquity. He would noti°,7lg:owever, desert the ancient temple of rational liberty for the gewgaw altars which were to be erected by the Noble Lord and his Right Hon. and Noble Colleagues.— 'e ar• ) Time Hon. Gentleman proceeded to object to the details of the Mr. GODSON would briefly state to the House the rea pass, by which his mind was convinced the Bill ou g ht to ln the first place, there could be no doubt of ,h e power of the House to change the nature of the elec tive franchise. That bad been sufficiently evinced in the Union with Scotland—in the Unisn with Ireland —and on the several occasions when the right of election was thrown into t h e adjoining hundred. The power, therefore, being ecknowledged, the question became one of degree. To what e xtent was it expedient that the power should be ex ercised? Much in that respect must depend upon publi c op i n i on . Now he had for some years observed the cause , m e Reform advancing against wind and tide ; advancing A gainst the influence of all theboroughmongers in England ; advancing against all the eloquence that could be directed against is. Wby ? Because the public voice was raised loudly iu be favour. Having ascertained, therefore, that the !louse had the power of effecting a Reform, and that the public opinion was favourable to it, the next question was, had the proper time arrived for carrying it into effect ? Now, what time could be better than a period of profound peace for entertaining a proposition in which the interests of so large a portion of the community were involved ? The general principles of the Bill were the disfranchisement of decayed boroughs, the extension of the privilege of repre sentation to large towns, and the increase of the number of Members for counties. To the fist it was difficult to conceive any objection. With regard to the second, he had never heard any rational objection ti granting the right of representation to such places as Birmingham and Man chester. And the third would be actually a bonus to the landed interest and the Aristocracy. To the argument. that persons connected with the colonies and others would e unable to obtain setts, his answer was, th at such per sons, by purchasing land in counties, would find a much better mode of entering the House than by means of rotten boroughs. Contrasting the good, therefore, with the bad, the former appeared to him so greatly to preponderate, that he felt bound to support the Bill —( Hear, hear.) Mr. EDMUND PEEL was sure that the most Mit,- rious consequences would result front depriving of the elective fratichi'ae a large body of the people by whom it had been so long enjoyed ; and that the effect would be pregnant with danger to many of the long-established and avell-tried institutions of the cnuntry. He was unknown in that House, but be had had much experience of the manufacturing classes ; and he could not conceal his fears of the consequences which might ensue when the people found that all the expectations which had been excited—all the imaginary advantages which they had been taught to anticipate from the Bill, ended in disappointment. The Bill went at once to dis!ranchise fifty-seven boroughs, and to deprive of one Member each forty more, all of whom were unconvicted of any wrong.—(Hear, hear, hear). He could not but think that the day was not far distant when the effects of such a sweeping proposition weuld show themselves in the diminution of those feelings by which the various classes of society ought to be bound together. It could not be maintained that the Bill would do away with the abuse of non-res:dent voters ; because it gave the elective franchise to individuals occupying warehouses and counting-houses—a privilege never before enjoyed. —( !fear, hear.) Why give the rich non-residents such a privilege, and take away their privileges from the poor non-resident fieetnen ?—( Hear, hear.) It was almost the only civil privilege which the lower classes had. It was almost the only opportunity they possessed of obliging their opulent neighbours. Why then dispossess them of that right which they had exercised for so many ages, and dissever the only connection between them and the House of Com mons ? But it was said that the present voters were open to bribery. Was he to conclude that the voters of 101. a year would be inaccessible to it ?—(Loud cries of ‘f Hear, hear.") Among the many absurdities of the Bill was the difference which would be made by it in the privileges of the children now in existence, and the children who would be born immediately after its adoption. He would not trespass longer on the House. He only hoped, that what ever might be the result, it would assume the character of a solemn act of legislative wisdom, and not that of the concession of weak timidity, and a thoughtless love of popularity.—(Hear, bear.) Mr. E. LYTTON BULWER said, that so far as the people were concerned, it was not denied that the Bill was already carried ; and the late election alone had rendered it idle and superfluous to insist on those more popular measures, which, though founded at first on just reasoning, might now assume the appearance of unnecessary decla mation. Ile should proceed, without further preamble, to what had long seemed to him the strongest, anti is now the most ostensibleground on which the Anti-Reformers rested —namely, the probable manner in which the proposed Bill would affect the power of the Aristocracy. And when they spoke of the power of any political body distinct from the people, they must remember that that power was at this day solely the creature of public opinion ; and that it was only in proportion as it lost or gained in public opinion that that power could really be said to be lessened or increased. Admitting this fact, which was so indis putable as to have passed into a truism ; and al arcing over the aspect of affairs, would any man say that the power of the Aristocracy was now so safe—so secure in public opinion—that it ought, at the first blush, to resist the idea of change? On the contrary, could any man note the commonest signs of the times, attend any political meeting read any political writing, have the most shallow acquaint ance with the organs of political opinion, and not confess, that so deep was the demarcation between the aristocracy and the people, that it had become sufficient alone to obtain popular suffrage, to declaim, however ignorantly, against aristocratic privilege? The Anti-Reformers com plained of this more loudly than the Reformers, and yet they referred us to causes much more terrible and irre mediable than those which really existed. Again and again—usrpte all nataeum—they fad referred us to the first French revolution, and libelled the English aristo cracy by comparing its situation with that of the French. But at that moment, when the English aristocracy were not popular, it would he well to remember, that there was no analogy in the cases. The people of this country had not, as they had in that, a long and black suns of offences against their superiors, to be scored off on the great reckon ing day of revenge. The English aristocracy might occa sionally be charged with a haughty neglect of the people, and with too obstinate a stand upon harsh laws and uta gracious prerogatives. But they could not he charged with the same terrible misuse of power that absolutely characterized the French ; not with the saute grasping oppression---not with the same unblushing venality—not with the same degrading sycophancy to Royal vices, or the same ruthless indifference to national distress.— (Cheers.) The great wealth of the English aristocracy, and their comequent independence of the Court, had pre served them as a body from the double necessity of meanness and extortion, and enabled them as individuals to purchase popularity at the cheap cost of pecuniary expencc. And if the cause of any odium they may have incurred had no analogy in those Causes which directed the vengeance of the French people against their noblesse, neither, on the other hand, could it be vaguely referred, as some Hon. Gentlemen had attempted to do, merely to the general growth of liberal opinion ; for it would be an assertion altogether without proof to say that there has ever exi-ted a period in this country, at least since the time of Jack Cade, when the doctrine of equalization of rank or property had obt a in e d so extensively, that the people had formed a hatred to their superiors merely from their superiority, or that they have cherished a hatred for power solely from a love for experiment. Whatever arguments might be alle ged in favour of Che Loetwithiels and the Old Sarums, it was not attempted to he denied that t h ey had made n ot only the Parliament, but the Aristocracy thus influencing the Parliament, unpopular to so great an excess, that nut only the ills of all the State, the wars, the expenditure, the debt, but even the very calamities inflicted by Providence —the scarcity ; and the drought—have been laid to the charge of this noxious influence; and the very extrava gance of these attacks, if matter of ridicule to the defenders of the system, were a proof at least of the extraordinary odium which the system had incurred. Here, then, at once was the cause of that great and growing division be tween the classes which was so deeply to he feared, it is obvious, for the sake of the Aristocracy alone (for if he was right in saying their power was the creature of public opinion, it was the Aristocracy alone who could lose by a violent collision of public opinion) ; for the sake of the Aristocracy alone they ought to he II the division ; and it was equally obvious, that in order to heal the division they must remove the cause. It had bean said that if you remove the nomination boroughs, you bring the House of Lords in direct collision with the House of Commons; and that the influence of the House of the Lords, felt on the floor of that 'Luse, often preserved the former froM the odium of rejecting po pular measures befOre their own immediate tribunal. But was there ever anything so glatingly inconsistent as the application of this argument? Hon. Gentlemen are willing that the House of Lords should now be brought into direct and violent collision with the House of Commons, lest it should be brought into collision with it hereafter. Hon. Gentlemen were willing that the House of Lords should now incur the certain and collected odium of the country, for f ear i t s h ou ld i ncur i ts poss ibl e an d p ar tial odium here after in s ome imaginary e po c h of futurity. By passing over the notable inconsistency of the application of th e argu ment, and granting the argument itself in its f ull force— granting that th e re are times and occasions in wh ich it is well th a t th e influence of the House of Lords should he felt in that House, and that it does serve to prevent any collision between the assemblies, was it not evident that that influence would still remain, only exercised in a consti tutional, not an invidious channel. Did Hon. Gentle men imagine that after the passing of the Reform Bid, the Aristocracy would suddenly be left alone in the world, with_ hurt a single tenant possessed of a vote, or a single friend to whom that vote could be g iven. To hear the Hon. Gentleman, one would suppose that they, the hard-hearted and ruthless Reformers, were not meditating the petty victory of a Parliamentary Re form, but the much g rander , N t , r et o Li k D e of shipping , Lard eff the whole of the Aristocracy to at least, that by schedule A - hey should not leave them a n acre, and that b y schedule- B they should cut them off with .a shilling ; and yet, was hese miserable, victims of radical ;ferocity would nut perfectly (dear t h a t t . still have sons , and brothers, and c ousins ; or, and friends in that House; and they will still exercise a rest atel paramount influents in the towns near which hey resided, and the counties which were now about, in (eceiving additional Members, to give the certainty of al. litional seats to the Aristocracy. If lion. Members insist that the moment that House mirrors in some degree the opinions of the majority of the people, the House of Lords :nui.t succumb and perish, they do not prophecy its future, they utter its present, condemnation. If this be true, the House of Lords is gone already ; while they debate on its lefence, the seal was put upon its abolition.—(Cheers.) .1 celebrated philosopher had felicitously observed " that :he greatest discoverer in science cannot do more than accelerate the progress of discovery." So in the career of rations as of knowledge, you may ad vance, but you cannot contradict the genius of a people ; the most demberatic law eannot do more than hasten a democracy, which, before tiuLt Veottld 110 qieeived, must have already beeotne inevitable, at a time vhen ituthority can no longer support itself by the solemn plausibilities and the ceremonial hypocrisies of old—it was yell that a Government should be placed upon a solid and .ore foundation. In no sac of the wet Id, but least of all in the present, could any system of Goeernment long exist which was menaced both by the moral intelligence and the physical fence of a country.—(Haar, hear.) In the present instance, he 'SAW a system thus menaced, and thee fore thus feeble, modified into one place not only on the iffections of the populace, though at this juncture he could .circely consider him wise who held even the affections of tee populace in contempt; but also on the opinions of that Chi,: which, in this country, filled up the vast space be tween the highest and the lowest, and whose members w e ee opposed to every more turbulent revulsion by all the habit, of &imintitte, and all the interests of wealth. But so entirely did he agree «full the Hon. Gtutlemen oppoeite on one principle—namely, that it u'.is the practical titabi lity and not the theoretical improvement of the ct.itiol wealth, th it ought to be our first object—that he wouiti become a willing and a cheerful convert to the rest of their sentiments on this great measure, the moment they' (emid show him, amidst the tumults of neighbouring na tions, and the crash of surrounding thrones, a better secu rity for the institutions of power than the love and confi• donee of an united and intelligent people. C•donel TORRENS warmly supported the Bill. What was desirable was, that the [louse should have a constitu ency so extensive as to be identified with the country at large. If that point were secured, whether the qualifica tion was 91. or 101., or whether the leases were long or short, was a matter of little importance. That was the principle on which Reform should proceed. The object ought co be to ascertain what was the voice of the people ; for the voice of the people was the voice of God. For many ye are the spirit of Reform had been working its way, not in this country only, but throughout the civilized world. So general had been the ferment on the subject, that it could not have been the effect of accident ; but must have been the result of a strong and grooving and uni versal desire. It hail been maintained that the present Bill would he but the commencement of an extensive system of innovation. This was a most visionary apprehension. The Bill would give the people larger elements of power; hut it would, at the same time, give them additional mo tives for the preservation of order. The higher the pri vileges of a community the more interested they became in the preservation of those institutions to which they were indebted for their privileges; the more anxious were tiley to ward off those convulsions by which they would themselves suffer. The danger was created by the oppo nents to the extension of popular privileges. The respon sibility rested upon those who when the machine of society wds working at high pressure, closed that safety valve to which alone the country could look for safety.—(Hear.) Mr. RICE TREVOR could not consent to a measure which, under the specious name of Reform, threatened the Constitution with destruction. Why was the poor and industrious freeman to he deprived of his right ? Why were the ties between the upper and the lower classes to be suddenly severed ? Why was a large body of the com munity, convicted of no crime, to be treated as if it had been guilty of the deepest ? The people of England had nut been allowed time for deliberation. Every thing had been done to excite their passions ; and the name of his Majesty had been most unconstitutionally used in further ance of that object.—(Hear, hear.) " The King, the People, and Reform," were the watch-words which had he, n resorted to for the purpose of deluding the people. NV hen from that delusion they awoke, as awake they must, what would be their feelings on discovering, not only that all the holes which hid been held out to them were fal lacious, not only that all the blessings which had been pro mised them had disappeared, but that they and their children were deprived of sonic of their dearest privileges— privileges which had for ages been enjoyed by their fore fathers.—(hear, hear.) Ile would not resign a tried, ad mitted, practical good, for an untried, visionary, and pe rilous experiment.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MACAULEY—Before I proceed to examine what may ha termed the political arguments applicable to the question, I wish to notice one position, which, if it were a sound our, I admit would he decisive against Reform. That position is—that the elective franchise is property— as much property as the dividends of the fundholder, or the tents of the landowner.—(No, no, hear, hear.) It must either he property or not property; and if it be property, to seize what belongs to the rich man in order to give to the poor man, would be to break up the very foundation of social order. I support this measure be cause I am convinced that the elective franchise is not property, and that the Bill ought not, therefore, to give e ompensation.—(Cheers.) I.ooking back at the earliest times we shall fiud that if the elective franchise be property, the present system is founded upon the most monstrous system of injustice and robbery. The great disfranchisement of the reign of Henry was an act of unheard of plunder, and the same remark will apply to the Reform iutro:luced by Oliver Cromwell. I will not argue on the merit or de merit of his system, but this I will say, that the best and wisest men of that and subsequent times never treated the elective franchise as property. I speak of all the de bates in which Maynard and Hale partook under the vigorous Oliver mid his feeble successor. Sir Henry Vane said that it was a Reform which the Long Parliament would have made had it lasted, and Lord Clarendon de , dared that it was a Reform which the King ought to have made had he then conic. to the Crown. Lord tendon, the most distinguished of Royalists, who leaned rather too much to legal ietinetnents on political questions, describes it as a Reform which was lit to be made by a more warrantable method, and in better times. This, then, I say, is that more warrantable method ; thia that tttr time.—(Much cheering.) What Cromwell at tempted in a country lately convulsed by civil war, and still agitated by religious factions, we are now called upon to accomplish in a state of perfect peace, and under a Prince whose title is as undisputed as his person is lieloved.—(Loud cheers.) The only cir cumstances which, in the opinion of lord Clarendon, were wanting in the Reform of Cromwell we find in the Reform of William the Fourth.—( Hear, hear.) [After adverting shortly to the Unions with Scotland and Ire land, and to the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders, the Hon. Member thus proceeded :]—lf the elective franchise were property, these, I contend, were most m kt:sive and sweeping confiscations ; but for the sake of the great institution of property, for which all other in stitutions exist, which is ,the source of all knowledge and of all industry, Ido most deeply lament to hear the sanc tity that belongs to property claimed by that which is not property. If you mix political abuses with the institu tion of property, you must expect that property will con tract the odium of political abuses.—(Hear, hear.) If eau bind them up that they may stand together, take care that they do not fall together.—(Hear, bean).— Many have before used the argummt which we heard repeated last night, and which, it I mistake not, wane originally employed by the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir It. Peel). It is true, say they, that the Act of 1829 was a confiscation of the plopettv of the 40s. freeholders tit he:and, and spew us a case of 'necessity equally urgent, and we will vote far Reform. Let them, however, beware how they set a precedent for the invasion of property on the ground of political convenience. Considering the dee; tive franchise as not property, we have only to discuss and aside this question—whether it is expedient at the pte s,nt moment to touch it Hon. Member here paid a high compliment to Lord Dorchester's speech last night, and went (tier some of the facts connected with the French Revolution adverted to by his Lordship, in order to show that the arguments built upon them were without founda tion.] I protest (be continued) against the analogy, and I deny that the cases of England and France are alike. I deny th a t we h ave h a il any parties here even remotely re sembling the re volutionary and caunter-revolutionary par ties of France. I deny that there is any analogy between the two Houses of Peers. I regard the Chamber of Peers of France as an unfortunate experiment—as a kind of f irtaal production—an exotic : there was nothing in the prorrty or in the state of society in France which required such an institution it had no root in Cie roil, and its decline and fall need not give the aristocracy of England the slightest alarm.—( Hear, hear.) fhe principal and most plausible argument against Cie Reform Bill is this—mark how rich, bow great, how .i.ippy this country is, an d h as b een; the admired of all !nen, and the e n v i e d o f f ore i gn nat i ons ; will you then eltange a system which has produced so many and such ing henefits ? lam far from denying that Englandie great and prosperous ceuntry. I am as tar from de- 143 ;i Q to the cloy No (b; Ru'si free in tion ?• that al propor society 6ecom we reigne land, I),en of cent said t! Cite w, praise tiotis? that tl their 11 great tion 01 sure— are a:1 the ir every upon I agains (Owe every the Ti ventio are—' ten t.it iost Dcy 0 and If we not In has e 4 (Hear see SO turn c a soil count cal aci pre-el (iepen combi iii4titi mirat steam veyau exau volu one ttx oth Wit pal all( sea Cot bez ret N.( tilt