The Sun. — London, England, 1827-05-18 00:00:00

Con to the question which I advocate, afforded me sufficient grounds for opposing them. But when I find that there , are topics on which I can agree with that Right Hon. Gent I feel, is I always have felt, ready to afford him my sup- • port, ha order to further those. measures in which we both concur. There are topics on which we may still disagree, ' and one of which, I mean the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, will probably soon conic under the consideration of the House ; and I declare, that if I amn ealled upon to move it, I will do so let me sit where I may —(hear, hear, hear.)—l would ask those who idolize the memory of Mr. Pitt—and I will speak of him with re spect, because I know there are some who do idolize him —whether he never formed part of an Administration where differences existed upon certain subjects? I ask them whether, while he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not move the subject of Parliamentary Reform ? I ask them whether year after year he did not recommend the abolition of the Slave Trade? And although I have heard, that if he had applied all the abilities he possessed to the carrying of that measure, it might have succeeded sooner, yet I never did hear him attacked for forming part of an Administration in which be differed from many of his colleagues upon those two subjects. If those Noble Los& will go into the history of Mr. Pitt's life, they will find that he advocated measures in whichhe differed from those persons with whom he was associated, and they will also discover that he even formed part of what he himself thought at the time a provisional Government. To the utmost extent, therefore, can I defend myself and my conduct upon the example of Mr. Pitt. I beg to apologise to your Lord ships for having detained you so long upon this subject ; but perhaps you will permit me, as I have entered upon the discussion, to say a few words on what has fallen from Noble Lords on the other side of the House upon another subject. I art ready to acknowledge their right of resigning: I will suppose that all that has been said upon the subject of concert is mere stuff and idle rumour, but then I must say—and they will excuse me the use of this term—that they acted very foolishly, if, on determining to resign, they did not concert together for the purpose of rendering that resignation effectual in the way they proposed, and if they did not combine together for the purpose of inducing his Majesty to reconsider the appoint ment of those to whom he had committed the administra tion of his government. I find no fault with them for having exercised the right of resignation ; indeed, there is no proceeding that has given me such hearty joy for many years past—(hear and laughter)—since I think with them that what has happened must be a great step towards the accomplishment of those measures which they deprecate, but which I have always supported.—(Hear, hear.)—But the Noble Lords must not take advantage of these things in both ways--they must not say that they will oppose the Government, because they fear the consequences of its measures will be to exclude the exclusionists, and will ultimately lead to some relaxation of those laws which we wish to see relaxed; and also, at the same time, turn round upon us, who disagree with them, and call for our support in their opposition to measures with which we concur. Some of these Noble Lords are opposed to the Right Honourable Gentleman, because they say he will carry the question to which they are hostile, and to which we are friendly—while others maintain, that we must be stupid or blind if we do not see that it is his intention to abandon that question entirely. They give us both sides of the picture—they !hew us the black and the white—they tell us what they like and what they dislike, and would have us agree with them in both ; hut I say, that they as well as we must make our option. Mine is already made. I think that lam justified in supporting the Government, because I agree with them in some things, although there are circumstances which I could wish to he otherwise.—(Loud cheers from both sides of the House.)—l will give the Noble Lords opposite all the ad vantage which they think they ran obtain from this declar- ' ation. I speak openly, and I say again, that there are cir cumstances in the present Administration which I could 1 wish to be otherwise. I think this will generally be found to be the case in human affairs. I think we shall seldom ' witness an instance in which, *hen a number of men are united together, there may not be some among them who will not see things they could wish to be altered. The 1 obedience of men to the interests of party, for the support ' of principles which they hold just and necessary, is seldom ' known to he founded upon an entire concurrence with every petty measure which their party may find it nece9- 1 sary to propose. It is sufficient if in the majority of the great objects of their union their opinions con cur. In the present instance I give my support to 1 rime Administration, because I believe that by so doing, ' I am assisting the cause of civil and religious liberty, more than I could do by joining in the Opposition. The Noble Lord who has, till recently, maintained his I seat upon the woolsack, made a declaration a short time since, the sincerity of which I acknowledge, although ' J believe that he came to a mistaken conclusion, since I cannot but think that throughout his life he has been op posed to the real liberty of the country. I have, there are, always been hostile to him in his political capacity; but I have received so much courtesy from him, that I en tertain, if he will permit me to say so, a great regard for him personally. From our political differences, therefore, it is not to be wondered at that I should be surprised when I heard him make the declaration 1 have alluded to, and. when I heard him state that his reason for resign ing was for the sake of religious and political liberty. I could not but be surprised at such a declaration, be cause I saw that he imagined he forwarded the inte rests of religious liberty, by refusing one-third of the peo ple of this country admission to civil rights on account of their religious opinions, and because I recollected that during the thirty years in which I have been in Parliament aNre has not been one measure for the abridgement of c i v il liberty, which he, and those now connected with him h ave no ,, uniformly supported—(Hear.)—l have changed my seat, for the purpose of resisting and contending against those measures a 7hich these Noble Lords have so long sup ported, and in dohie s so 1 do not think that I am liable to the least charge of po in;:cal inconsistency.—[His Lordship from all parts of the resumed his seat amidst c:Leering House.]. The Earl of WINCHELSEA sal 4- he was not pledged to support any particular set of measures, and he should therefore give his independent support to any which seemed to him deserving of it. What confidence could he have in the measures of the present Administration when he took a view of past events ? What confidence did the late coali tion afford to him? What pledge—what security did they give for the uprightness and integrity of their conduct ? It was not merely upon the measure of the Catholic Ques.. Zion that he thought the principles of Lord Liverpool's Covernment had been departed from, but there were others which proved to him that he could not give his support to the Government. The Noble Baron who had just resumed his seat, had said that this Adminis tration was not the same as the last. He thanked the Noble Baron for the avowal, and he now knew how they stood. A sacrifice had been made on one side ; and it ap peared from that declaration, that it was not made by the Whig party who had joined the Administration, bat by the Right Hon. Gentleman to whom they had given their support. When he considered what that Noble Baron had stated, he could not but think that the Right Honourable Gentleman had sacrificed his Tory principles as a stepping stone to the high situation which he at pre sent held. He (Earl Winchelsea) bore that Right Hon. Gentleman no private_lmstility, but he felt towards him the strongest degree of political hostility, which he should never hesitate boldly and openly to avow. That hostility was founded upon the recollection of events that he could not erase from his mind. He did not think that the conduct of that Right Hon. Gentleman towards his late Noble Colleagues, who stood deservedly so high in the estimation of the country, was marked with that openness and candour which ought to be expected ; and his (the Earl of Winchelsea's) feelings upon that subject were so 5 -trong, that if every one of the Administration were Gen tlem:ita possessing Tull' principles, and that Right Hon. Gentler:24n was at their head, he should stand where he now did. It was not, therefore, on the Catholic Question alone that he should oppose the Administration; but it was because he had not witnessed that uprightness, integrity, and consistency, which could aloue entitle it to the confi dence of the country. However, on that question he had a strong opinion ; and when it was considered that it was now almost openly avowed, that those who possessed the power of the Government would exereiae that power, if not openly, at least clandestinely, for the success of that ques tion, which, he bad no hesitation in saying, was against the sense of the British Nation, he thought himself justified in exercising the most direct opposition to the Government. If that question was to be carried, in God's name let it be done openly and fairly. Let the people of this country be told that their political and civil liberty depended upon their granting these concessions to the Catholics. Let that declaration he made openly, and he would to the last hour, raise his voice against it. He thought the present Administration was one which every individual who had supported the last, and who wished to preserve his political character, should oppose; and of th is be was certain, that at least it had not the support of'the nation. Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that the Noble Baron who had spoken from the opposite side of the House bad exhibited some soreness—which be must designate as an official soreness—at the conduct of those who were now in the PPl"aiticin' for taking the opportunity of raising little debates ;Thenever that opportunity was afforded them. In condemning that 1,711*, the Noble Baron had little re 4:* isrd to the useful rights of itie Qprositieu, when be suf -4.„. .1 • matized as factions those who shewed a disposition tc look closely into the acts and conduct of Government. He had always umlerstoed that two things which were equal to the same were equal to one another ; and he could not, there ' fore, understand how those Noble Lords who, it now ' seemed, had agreed with the measures of the late Govern talent, could have been, as they always had been, its oppo nents in that House. The Noble Baron had said, that the present Administration was not upon the principle of Lord Liverpoel's ; other Noble Lords were inclined to support it because it was ; while a third class had avowed that they did not know what those principles were. Now, there being so many differences upon this subject, he wished the Noble Viscount opposite would state what, were the principles of the present Government; and further, that he would give an answer to that question which had been put to him, and would say, whether there was any engagement on the part of Government, binding them not to use that influence, which, as a Government they possessed, to carry the Catholic Question.—(Hear, hear, hear.).—What secu rity had Noble Lords, who had now joined the Administra tion, taken to carry into effect the principles they had long advocated ? Was the Mint a security—were the Woods and Forests a security? Did their Lordships see any of those Noble Lords occupying situations which gave them a guarantee that their favourite principles would be carried into effect ? Did they look to the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman for that security? If they did, in what situa tion did they stand ? Was it not known to their Lordships, that but a few short weeks had elapsed since that Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed to his Majesty—and hold ing the opinions that he did, it was impossible to say how he reconciled that proposition with his oath as a Privy Councillor—the formation of a Government entirely hostile to the granting the Catholic Claims ? Was not that Go vernment to be founded upon the principles of Lord Liver pool's Administration ; and did not that Right Hon. Gen theman himself express the greatest anxiety to retain in the service of his Majesty those who were well known to he hostile to those claims ? Did that look like a sincere desire to forward the interests of the Catholics ? It was impos sible to say, therefore, to what part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's conduct those Noble Lords looked for security ; ,but it was evident that, look where they might, in no part could they find it. No one could doubt that, in going over to the other side of the House, the noble Baron had some great object in view ; and great indeed it ought to have been, for much had he sacrificed to attain it. The Whigs, as a party were annihilated. Their very name was gone ; that name with which all his fame, and that of his Noble Friend, was connected ; that name which had distinguished his public character, and the public character of his an cestors, was annihilated. The Whigs, as a party, might have had their errors ; but their party was looked to as one in the possession of many honours, and of much influence. It was now extinct, and its extinction had been accomplished by a prostration of personal dignity,ofwhichtlierewas no example in the former history of the country. That circumstance was much to he regretted. The dignity of public men was part of the strength of the people—that dignity the Whigs had once possessed, but now they had sacrificed it, and with it their public usefulness. They had sacrificed it, too, with out receiving one pledge that any one measure they advocated should be carried into effect. He would not look back merely for three weeks, but for three years, and then he should see the commencement of that system of adulation which had disgusted the public mind ; of that system which had placed one Minister in contrast with his Co-- leagues, and which had made his conduct and opinions the subject of particular praise, though it was well known that there was no measure of the Government with which all the Administration were not equally identified. A Noble Earl behind him (Earl Grey) had recently, in a speech of the utmost eloquence, and of eloquence of the hest kind, because it was the eloquence of consistency and candour, struck all the grounds from beneath—they were all gone, or if a part of one remained, it was only the half of the ground of religious liberty. The country now knew how to estimate those who had taken place under such cis cum stances, some of which seemed to him to be very suspici ous. It was known that it had been intimated, in a certain quarter, that there were several persons, not great in number, but weighty by their tact and influence, who would support the Right Honourable Gentleman if he were placed at the head of the Government. On this circumstance he (Lord Ellenborough) had some observa tions to make. In the first place, that communication should have been public. It should have been made in Parliament, and ought not to have been concealed from those who could haNe assisted his Majesty with their Council. In the next place, lie (Lord Ellenborough) ob jected, upon principle, that the leaders of a responsible party should go over to an Administration, and not hold responsible offices. He trusted that the bad example which bad been set in this, would not be followed; and he trusted also that on no future occasion should a gentleman, entrusted with the leading of the Government in one House, he seen acting in concert with those who had ge nerally been opposed to that Government, and thus ousting his former colleagues. He acknowledged that these things might, prima facia, appear to be worse than they were ; but they were bad enough, and lie should take every op portunity of holding up to public indignation such conduct. His Noble Friend, who had gone over to the other side of the House, seemed to think, that if he had not gone over the present Administration could not have been sup ported. Perhaps in one respect he was right ; but be (Lord Ellenborough) was convinced that if that Noble Baron had not gone over, an Administration would have been formed, much more consonant to his wishes than the present. The Noble Lords who had gone over reminded him of the well-known lines of the Poet . " Stabant orantes primi transmittere cursum, Tendebantque menus ripe ulterioris amore." That being the case, the Noble Baron had no power on the subject. The Noble Baron would do him the justice to acknowledge, that he had not acted in that manner. He had told that Noble Baron some time since, that he felt every disposition to support that Noble Baron's Adminis tration, but that he could not bring his mind to support that of Mr. Canning. The opinion as expressed he had deliberately formed ; and if he had not formed it at that time, the circumstances connected with the creation of the present Administration would have given rise to it. The Noble Baron thought lie had acted the best for the attain ment of the Catholic Question, in pursuing the course lie had adopted. He (Lord Ellenborough) admitted the sin cerity of that opinion, while he was disposed to doubt its accuracy. He did not believe that the Government would do anything for the Catholi.,72. ; or it, as a Government, they do any thing, they would be deceiving all parties, so that by their present conduct they afforded a good rea son to both Protestants and Catholics to oppose them. He was no Member of a factious Opposition. He spoke in that House merely as an individual ; but when he saw that no part of the Government went on without an abandon ment of principle—be cared not on what side that aban donment was—be thought there could be no better ground for mistrusting. He should offer them a constant opposi tion—not a factious, but an unceasing and vigilant observ ance of every measure of the Government. It was stated that the Cabinet were not to interfere upon a particular question. What was the result of that statement, but to ex? cite improper hopes and fears, which might produce in Ireland a situation of things of the most terrible and afflicting kind ? No man was more desirous than him self that that question should be finally set at rest, but at present he despaired of it. Wherever lie turned he met it, till it became a burthen too intolerable to be borne. It he went into the Cabinet of the King he met it there. If he went into the ChUrch he met it there. It deprived his Majesty and the country of the most efficient men for the public service; but not satisfied with its public mischief, it invaded the sanctity of private life. It divides father from son, and created dissension where all ought to be harmony. In England it was a grievance, but in Ireland it was a 1 1 malediction. With that feeling lie could not but desire its final adjustment. If events were left to their natural course, they would produce all he wished. He did not like the Government to pursue such a line of conduct as would make them appear to give promises they might not keep, exciting hopes and fears, and justifying neither, by which they would create incalculable mischief to Ireland, Since they would create despair by pursuing so deceptive a course. _ _ Lord HOLLAND explained, denying that be had called the Opposition factious, and— Lord ELLENBOROUGH repeated his questions, re garding the communications that had passed between Mr. Canning and the Whigs. Lord Viscount GODERICH observed, that the Noble Baron who bad just sat down had frankly stated his inten tion of taking every opportunity convenient or inconve nient, of manifesting to their Lordships and the country his determination to carry on that which he had, in the early part of the Session, described as an uncompromising hostility to the present Government. He had plainly avowed, that his object was, by those separate, inconve nient, and unsatisfactory discussions, to produce an impres sion on the public mind. Such might be his object ; but, in effecting it, they who were thus put upon their trial had the most unjust imputations cast upon them, and were re viled as me❑ almost incapable of honourable and proper feelings, and as only influenced by the paltry abomination of gain. He complained of this course as most unjust ; and he declared that if fair dealing was intended, it would no longer be pursued. If they were to be told that they did not deserve the confidence of the country, for God's sake let a motion be brought befoie the House for that pur pose ; be sought for nothing else, He declared that it was I impossible for those who were engaged in the service of his Majesty to do justice to the duties they had undertaken, if they were to be attacked in this way. When those im putations were thrown upon them they were expected to treat them with indifference. For himself, he must de clare, that he should meet the decision of such a question, when it came—if ever it did come—with that calm and fearlessness which he had hitherto shewn upon political questions ; and if the results should prove different from his anticipations, he should still feel the greatest indiffer ence.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But lie was not indifferent to the language with which he and his friends had been fan• some time assailed. It was impossible to remain altogether insensible to the violence of that language.—(Hear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord imagine that Ministers were ice or stones ?—(Cheers.) True it was, that they had hitherto thought it necessary to their honour and character to re press the feelings which the language to which their Lord ships had recently listened, was calculated to excite in their breasts.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It had hitherto been the duty of the side of the House at which he sat to repress those feelings, but he trusted that in future such a distress ing necessity would cease to exist, as he expected, that in candour, a question and a vote to determine what the real sentiments of the House were, would be introduced. He did not quarrel with the Noble Lord for doing all that it might be in his power to do, to hurl Ministers from their present seats. If it was the opinion of Noble Lords in that House, and of Hon. Gentlemen elsewhere, that he, and those with whom he had the honour of acting, had forfeited the confidence of Pediment and of the Country, in the name of God, let their Lordships de finitively pronounce an opinion to the effect, and let the present Ministry be sent about their business.—(Hear, hear.) But if, on the other hand, we have not deserved to be thus stigmatised, let there be an end to that petty and harassing warfare. All that he or his friends could say was, that they were anxious to meet the question fairly, if any Noble Lord would have the goodness to bring it fairly forward. But he must, once for all, protest, in the most decided manner, against being thus baited, night after night, with questions so artfully contrived, as that silence, upon the part of himself and his Colleagues, could be tor tured into the most unjust and injurious constructions. The questions which the Noble Lord had, that night, thought proper to put were not, however, of a nature, even though unanswered, to justify such conclusions; but he would, nevertheless, give, without the slightest hesitation, the most explicit answer to those questions, still maintain ing that he might, with perfect safety and propriety, stand on his right of refusal. The Noble Lord had enquired whether, in the formation of the present Government, such as it then was, there had been any stipulation either in favour of or contrary to the Catholic Claims ? For him self„ as well as for his Colleagues, he could assure their Lordships, that he had never heard of any such stipulation, either the one way or the other ; and that, as far as he knew, it only had existence in those vague rumours and reports to which the Noble Lord had thought proper to lend the weight of his name and character. If any such engagement had been proposed to him, he would at once have rejected it—he would not say with scorn, but in a manner which must have for ever precluded the renewal of a proposition of a similar nature.—(Cries of hear, hear,) He had spent some time in Parliament ; and he must say, that during his political experience, he had never heard made, against any Administration, a charge more false and groundless than that which their Lordships had recently heard.—(Cries of hear, hear.)—For himself he could only say, that he appealed to the tenor of his whole life, as the best refutation of such a calumny.—(Hear, hear.)---While making this assertion, he was far from accusing Noble Lords with having alleged that which they knew to be un true. He doubted not that their Lordships believed all they asserted ; but he was sure that their Lordships and the country would concur in his opinion as to the error under which these Noble Lords laboured. He professed to know nothing concerning the proposals of assistance and conjunction asserted to have been tendered by Noble Lords, whose usual seat was at the opposite side of the House to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman who was at the head of the Government. But even were be better instructed in this respect, he saw no reason which could induce him to be communicative.—(Hear, hear.)—He was totally at a loss to understand how Noble Lords could possibly justify to themselves a system of hostility, founded upon idle and groundless rumour. Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that his questions were grounded on admissions from Noble Lords opposite. Viscount GODERICH said, that the only admission of which the Noble Lord could avail himself, was, that the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Administration bad done his utmost to form an efficient and powerful Ad ministration, without any sacrifice of public principle. Lord ELLENBOROUGH agreed with the Noble Vis eount, but still asserted that that Administration could not go on. Viscount GODERICH said that that remained to be proved, and he most anxiously desired to have the question solved by a Parliamentary vote. The mode of assault to which lie was now directing a repulse, was not of that species which the manliness and candour of the Noble Lord would have induced him to expect ; lie bad thought that the Noble Lord would have immediately come into collision with Ministers, and fairly contest the debateable ground, instead of skis mishing at the out-posts, and annoy ing his opponents, without any definite object. It was con trary to the expectation which he had formed of the Noble Lord's conduct, to be bemired, and baited daily like a male factor. The Administration was not tried, and all he de sired was fair play. Ministers wished to justify their cha racters; they were mutually anxious to rescue themselves from such a species of harassing persecution as the pre sent. He would not touch upon the Catholic question, as it involved too much discussion. On the present occasion, he could not, however, refrain from testifying his advocacy of that measure—(Hear, hear.)—as sincerely as any of his present or former colleagues. But that attachment had its bounds, and would not carry the question by main force, neither would the Noble Lord himself, under the circum stances. The concluding part of the Noble Lord's speech con tained a most extraordinary charge. It implied that there should be an equality on both sides on the Catholic ques tion. He would ask the Noble Lord, if that was not the state of the recent Cabinet, at the head of which Lord Liverpool sat for fifteen years? And yet that Cabinet did not receive the Noble Lord's support. He had often wished its dissolution, and now proposed it as a model. He (Lord Goderich) did not adopt the principle of necessary equality upon the Catholic Question ; and he felt that, as the Ca binet was formed with respect to it, he was left open to take office under the Right Hon. Gentleman. The com ponent parts of Lord Liverpool's Government still remain ed, and let the test be its acts. The remaining Members of that Cabinet had given their counsels to the King for more than fifteen years ; and had, through good and through evil repute, borne the country through all itsgreatest and most alarming perils. Could anysacrifice of principle be alleged against the Merabers of the present Government? The political Members of it repelled any such insinuation. Their principles were unchanged, and all he asked of their Lordships was to suspend their censure until proofs were adduced to justify it. Lord ELLENBOROUGH explained, and said that his questions were founded upon admissions by the Noble Lord. The Marquis of SALISBURY made some observations, which were rendered inaudible by the noise in the body of the House. The Marquis of LANSDOWN was anxious to give to their Lordships every explanation which his political con duct appeared to require, when a fair and fitting opportu nity was offered, but he declared th a t no oonsideration— however anxiously he might feel upon the subject—could induce him to he accessary to these irregular, unfair, and lie would add ungenerous discussions.—(Hear.)—He should take care that, as tar as it was in his power to pre vent it, Noble Lords should not pursue discussions of this nature in such an irregular way. But while he said this, he wished it to be understood that he was anxious for an opportunity of explaining, item by item, every charge, founded or unfounded, which had been made against him, whether taken from the actual circumstances of the case, or collected from the idle rumours of the day.—(H ear .) —He assured their Lordships that he looked with the most unmixed confidence to a removal (when a fair op portunity offered) of every shadow of blame or prejudice ' with which his conduct had been assailed. He trusted, also, to prove to their Lordships, that the present Govern ment had been brought together under feelings as honour able as those which influenced the formation of any Ministry mentioned in any period of our history. He repeated, that the admission given by the Noble Lord and Noble Earl opposite was false. When he said this, lie did not, of course, mean to assert that the Noble Lords were guilty of a wilful misrepresentation. He merely requested, as an act of justice, that the House would not condemn him or his friends unheard. When an opportunity occurred to exculaate themselves from such a charge as one which had been adduced against them, it would be most gladly taken advantage of. In the mean time, it would not be too much to hope that the House would not be car ried away by the torrent of eloquence or invective in which the Noble Lord was pleased to indulge without any foun dation. He might also hope, that their Lordships would not be disinclined to credit the assertion of his readiness, ' on the first occasion, to vindicate himself and his Noble Friends from the charge which had been so studiously and so undeservedly cast upon them. If, however, only the tithe of what was alleged against them were to be believed before the juncture of redress, it would he a gross injus tice. The Noble Lord, who had launched into such a strain of phillippic, might have acted more prudently, if he had deliberated more maturely, and considered what the nature and composition was of the Government he at tacked, and the merit of the Opposition with which he leagued himself, before he ventured to vent such virulent censures as those by which he had committed himself so extensively. He (Lord Lansdown) would not trouble their Lordships with any more words on this subject, which was on the present occasion irrelevant. He would wait until a fair opportunity presented itself for their Lordships to form an accurate opinion on the Government, and the op position which had elevated itself against it. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Multsynr, MAY 17. Mr. lIERRIES brought up the Estimates of the Ex traordinaries of the Army. NEW WRITS. The Marquis . of CHANDOS moved for a new Writ for Buckingham, in the room of the Right Hon. W. Free mantle, who had accepted the Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds. Mr. PLANTA moved for a new Writ for the Borough of Calne, in the room of James Abercrombie, Esq., who had accepted the office of Judge Advocate of Scotland. Mr. PLANTA also moved for a new Writ in the room of George Tierney, Esq. who had accepted the office of Master of his Majesty's Mint. Mr. PLANTA also moved for a new Writ for the Borough of Caine, in the room of Sir James Macdonald, who had accepted the office of one of the Commissioners for the affairs of India. Mr. WARD gave notice of a motion for to .morrow, to amend the regulations for the sale of bread in London. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL presented a petition from Dale, in the County of Kent, praying that' the Bill before the House, relative to the licensing of ale houses, might not pass into a law. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a similar petition from the Licensed Victuallers of Ramsgate. Mr. WARBURTON moved for returns of the quantity of wood imported into this Country since January 1, 1824, to Jan. 1, 1827. Alr. HUME moved for leave to bring in a Bill to pre vent vexatious and frivolous arrests, and also for leave to bring in a Bill for the better recovery of small debts in England and Wales.—Leave granted. Mr. SPRING RICE presented a petition from the Cotton Weavers of Limerick, praying that the House would take their case into consideration. The Petition after a few words from Mr. Calcraft was referred to the Committee on Emigration. Mr. WESTERN presented a Petition from the Owners and Occupiers of Land in Clare, in the County of Suffolk, praying that no alteration might be made in the Corn Laws. It was passible, he said, that that Act which had recently been passed might be seat back from the House of Lords with amendments, or should be lost, as he hoped • most sincerely it might.—(Hear, hear.)—He should then move for the revival of the Act of 1822, to which a fair trial had never been given prior to its repeal. Mr, WESTERN presented a petition from a number of ' his Constituents, praying that some alteration might take place in the present system of Game Laws. Mr. WESTERN presented a petition from the tants of Coggleshall, in Essex, praying that the Stamp Duty on receipts might be repealed. Mr. HUME brought in the Bills of which he had pre viously given notice, relative to vexatious arrests, and the more easy recovery of small debts, both of which were read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time this day se'nnight. Mr. HUME postponed his motion for the repeal of the 60th of George 111. until Monday next. Colonel WOOD moved the first reading of a Bill for suspending for two years the laws which prohibit the sale of Game.--Agreed to, and ordered to be read a second time On Thursday next. Mr. BANKES gave notice of a motion for Tuesday next for relieving persons. professing the Roman Catholic Reli gion from the double assessment of the Land-tax. Lord MILTON presented a petition from the Coroners of the County of York, praying for an increase in the amount of their fees. Mr. W. HORTON rose to move, that returns be laid before the House, of certain papers connected with the Government of the Cape of Good Hope. In moving for these returns, he said that he should not have made any remarks upon the subject, had it not been that Sir R. Don kin had sent forth a statement, which professed to be an answer to a speech of his, which speech, he (Mr. W. Hor ton) had never made. There was a notice of motion be fore the House for a future day, the object of which was to institute an inquiry into the mal-administration at the Cape. It was far from being his intention to say one word which could at all touch upon that question.-- He would only call the attention of their Lordships to the charges brought by Sir R. Donkin against the late Governor of the Cape, which charges had been circulated through the country. Sir R. Donkin had represented that he (Mr. W. Horton) had said, that he (Sir R. Donkiu) was actuated by acrimonious feelings towards Lord Charles Somerset, and Sir R. Donkin contended that it was wrong . to impute to him such feelings. He also alleged that a new system had sprung up in that House upon the pre ferment of a complaint against any individual, which was to turn round upon the accuser, and charge him with personal hostility to the accuser. He could only say, in reply to this assertion, and without qualify ing the statement, that there were few cases in which personal feeling was more evident or more strongly deve loped. But that had nothing to do with the question as to the truth or falsehood of the charge brought forward, though he would say, if a person suffered himself to be so far carried away by his feelings, as to act with great in consistency, then, indeed, the same weight would not at tach to the accusation which he might prefer. In proof that the conduct of Sir R. Doiikin justified this remark. he would state to the House a few facts, which 'would enable them to judge of its justice. When Sir R. Donkin came to this country from the Cape, in June, 1823, he wrote a letter to Lord Bathurst on the 17th of that month, in which lie expressed himself to the effect, that if lie was forced to do so, lie could make such accusations against the Governor, which would asto nish and shock his Lordship, and cover the individual with ruin. By the desire of Lord Bathurst, he (Mr. W. Horton) wrote to Sir it:Donkin in reply, and said, that in the respect to the charges he had intimated against Lord Charles Somerset, Lord Bathurst felt called upon to ask him immediately to communicate them, for lie felt it an imperative duty upon his part to have them investigated. On the 28d of June, Sir R. Donkin again wrote a letter, in which he alleged that he could not do himself justice without coming so close in contact with Lord C. Somerset, as to cast censure upon him. In reply to this letter, Lord Bathurst directed him (Mr. W. H.) to write to Sir R. D., to the effect that with respect to the charges against the Governor of the Cape, he Lord Bathurst in no degree re laxed in his desire 'to have them investigated, and that he could not consent to their being withheld, unless Sir R. Donkin was prepared to retract them altogether. To this Sir R. Donkin replied that he could not, in the com mon acceptation of the word, retract the charges he had made, unless he meant to forfeit all pretension to the cha racter of a gentleman, and the rank he held in the service of his Majesty. If the word retract was to be taken in the real grammatical sense,—that is to say,—to draw back,—he bad no objection to admit that his charges had been hastily made and were ill-timed, as interposing between his Lordship and the Commissioners at the Cape, and in that sense of the word, he would rather retract them. In consequence of this refuel, on the part of Sir R. Donkin, to proceed with his charges, Lord Bathurst had no other resource but to send to the Commissioners at the Cape, which was accordingly done, and their Report was then ready to be laid upon the table of the House. The charge made by Sir R. Donkin is, that Lord Charles Somerset reversed all the measures adopted by Sir R. Donkin for the benefit of the Colony; and this charge is an swered by his Lordship, who retaliatee-411eging that Sir R. Donkin has done the very same, while acting as locum tenens for his Lordship. With respect to the rea sons previously adopted for the Government of the Cape, if ever there had been an unanimous feeling in that House, it was at the time when it was agreed that Lord Charles Somerset should come over and meet his accusers. The charges against his Lordship were of a very different na ture. With respect to the papers relative to Bishop Burnett, he would say that after having been so long upon the table of the House, if no Hon. Member thought proper to follow up those charges then Lord Charles Somerset should stand acquitted.— With respect to the motion for the 13th of June, he would entreat the Honourable Member, who was now he perceived in his place, to make known to the House something definite relative to that motion. The motion merely stated mal-administration at the Cape, and it would be too much to expect that he should be prepared at all points. He thought, in con.mon fairness, that some intimation should be _privately given of the particular charges which it was intended by that motion to have investigated. He had shown to the House that Sir R. Donkin at one time brings charges, at another not. Whether the good of the Colony was frustrated by the measures of Lord Charles, would be conveyed to the House by the Report of the Commissioners. But why should Sir R. Donkin complain, when according to his own wish, the case had been referred to the Commissioners. The papers which he wished to have laid on the table, were those relative 'to the town of Bathurst—those also relating to the defence of the frontier, and those con nected with the financial Administration ; the dispatches from the Government at the Cape; the opinions of Major Holloway ; also the correspondence between Sir R. Donk in:and Lord Charles Somerset. Upon the merits of the case, he would not say one word ; it would be inexpedient to do so, without entering into details; and he deprecated discussion altogether on that evening. One accusation however, he could not help alluding to. Sir R. Donkin had alleged that a Mr. Parker had been sent over specially at the public expence, for the purpose of criminating him, and the Colonial Department here had lent themselves to this proceeding by receiving him. The Hon. Member went on to say that this was wholly incorrect. On the 12th January, 1820, Sir R. Donkin wrote to say that he thought he could not do better than follow up the plans of Lord C. Somerset ; yet afterwards he says, that in conse quence of Lord Charles Somerset's personal conduct, he could not communicate with him, and that Lord Charles had therefore lost the benefit of the measures adopted by him (Sir Rufane) whether right or wrong; if right, that they might be pursued for the benefit of the colony ; or if wrong, that he might profit by the experience, and reject such measures for the future. In reply to this, he had only to observe, that Lord Charles Somer set had written to Sir Rufane Donkin, requesting him to call on him ; but no interview took place. The next thing to be considered was the expectation entertained by Sir R. Donkin, that he was entitled to some particular mark of honour at the hands of his Majesty. Now Sir Rufane Donkin had been only one year and a half acting as Governor of the Cape, and then only as locum tenons: for Lord Charles, and he very greatly deceived himself if he supposed that such a length of service could entitle him to any particular mark of distinction. Marks of approbation he had at various times received, and it was right that he should know the practice adopted, not merely with respect to official personages, but with every private individual at the Cape. If a letter is missed, they receive a private copy until the original can be found ; and in the case of Sir R. Donkin he could assure him, that the remotest idea was never entertained of withholding from him the original of the letter, in which the marks of approbation were contained, and of the non receipt of which he complained. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for the produc tion of certain papers. Mr. MABERLY would not be doing the duty of a friend if he did not put the House in possession of some facts not stated by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Horton) in behalf of the Gallant Officer. Instead of accusing Lord Charles Somerset, the Gallant Officer himself was the per son accused, and in defending himself he found it necessary to bring forward some circumstances which reflected on his Lordship. The Hon. Member then read a letter dated in 1821, from Lord Bathurst, approving of the gallant Officer's Administration, and another let ter from the Chief Justice and the Colonists, ex pressing great satisfaction with his conduct. The Hon. Member then proceeded to observe, that it was far from his intention to make any attack upon Lord C. Somerset; his object merely was to do justice to the character of the Gallant Officer. He did not mean to contrast the Ad ministration of the Gallant Officer with that of his Lordship; he was determined to preserve the utmost impartiality, and to examine the matter with firmness. He hoped, from the documents read, the House would be satisfied that the Gallant Officer had a high character, whatever that of Lord Charles Somerset might be. Lord E. SOMERSET would not now enter into a full defence of his Noble Relation's conduct, as a future occa sion would be afforded for that purpose. In the mean time lie besought the House to suspend their judgment until the whole facts should be before them, and then to exercise their judgment with their usual candour and re gard to justice. - An Hon. MEMBER under the gallery whose name we could not learn, the❑ made a few observations, which were understood to be in favour of Lord Charles Somerset. Mr. HUME said, the question was not at present whether they were to go into the inquiry upon the conduct of Lord Charles Somerset, but whether certain papers should be laid. on the table of the House. A great deal had been said of the conduct of General Donkin ; and he now hoped, that as the Hon. Gentleman had at last laid the correspondence on the table, he would consent to produce all the papers which might be wanting. He did not, he hoped, misunder stand the Hon. Membe., whe asserted that every Paper and Petition which had been laid on the table of that House, implicating the conduct of Lord Charles, had been regu larly sent out to the Commissioners at the Cape, and made the subject of inquiry. Now, if that was really the case, and that they had been fully reported, it was not a little ex traordinary that the House had never been put in possession of the result. It was very strange, too, that any Hon. Member should charge others with not bringing forward charges, or wish them to rest the course of ten years upon a single act. They were to take the whole series of actions, in order to judge of the nature of the conduct pursued in the Government. The Hon. Member then defended the conduct of Sir Rufane Donkin, and declared his opinion that he had acted rightly in leaving the matter to the Com missioners. After one or two observations in defence of Sir Rufane Donkin, the Hon. Gentleman concluded by ex pressing a hope that the Hon. Gentleman would now con sent to lay all the papers before the House. Mr. BROUGHAM could not avoid making one or two observations upon some expressions which had fallen from Hon. Gentlemen with respect to the course he had pursued. It had been said that he had brought a charge against Lord Charles Somerset, and that it had failed. Now the fact was, that lie presented a petition ; and lie thought it due to the Noble Lord, who had on that occasion, as well as on every other, when the case has been mentioned, de fended his Noble relation with the greatest regard to .ho nour and propriety, as well as with the greatest spirit, and it was but fair also to himself, to declare that he had never taken any step upon the case, except in presenting that petition. He had then stated most distinctly, that lie de sired not to be under the slightest responsibility for the ve racity of anything contained in that petition —a fact of which he was the more certain, as lie had, in addition to his own distinct recollection of the circumstances, even looked into the debates of the period, which he found to be, as they almost always were, exceedingly correct. He had then, he repeated, most distinctly guarded himself in opening the charges of Bishop Burnett against Lord Charles, from being considered answerable for even one tittle of the allegations; but he had, at the same time, felt himself bound to say, that he had seen the accuser, Bishop Bur nett, and examined him upon the facts—that be had, upon the strictest cross-examination he had been able to give him, adhered to those facts—that he had been consistent in his statements, and that he had been clear in his an swers ; and he had concluded by observing, without saying anything further, that all these circumstances were prima facie evidences of the truth of the accusations—slen der proofs, he allowed, but that still they went somewhat to support the allegations. The presentation of that peti. tion was the only act of his connected with the question. As to the progress which the Commissioners had ma de, • or as to the failure of the charges, he knew nothing ; 1101 ' did he wish, without further information, to say any of those Commissioners. One of th em , M r . Bigg, been a most particular and esteemed frie n d o f his for man! years, and he certainly felt disposed to sp ea k with respec t , of any Commission which included him as a M e mber. Al` he would say at present was, that if th e c h arges had be , as it was said, disproved, then Lord C. S omerse t had not been fairly dealt with. The charges ought no t to ha" been left hanging over his head so long. If th e y were es pable of being disproved, he would s a y a t once that they aught to be disproved, or totally aband one d. M r . Bishop Burnett, he understood, however, p ers i s t e d in these charges, and had even given publicatio n t o seve ral adtli tional and explanatory accusations ; and h e agree d, there' fore, most fully with the Noble Lo t d, th a t th ese charges ought to be either dismissed if they w ere f a l se , or prove d if they were capable of proof. It h a d b een sa id, how' ever, that he pledged himself, on the o ccas i on o f that tie bate, to impeach Lord Charles Som erse t. Th e House had this night heard that all th e c h arges aga i ns t Lora 61 Charles Somerset have been inquired into, save one; bu t that one he considered to be one of the gravest character, the only grave charge he had met with ameng all those preferred against the Noble Lord. The charge was no less than one of Judicial Corruption—the taking a bribe in s Court of Appeal, *here he sat as a Judge. It had been his opinion at that time that the charge could not be true , he said he could not believe it to be true—that he could not for a moment believe that Lord C. Somerset had been guilty of such an act. He had felt himself bound al° to say, when the Noble Lord (Lord C. Somerset), 00 that occasion as on this, repelled the idea of such guilt that the charge was to be found certainly in a parenthesi s only of Mr. Bishop Burnett's statement, and did not form an integral part of the accusations. Now the Commis sioners might have been right, or they might have been wrong, in saying that Lord C. Somerset was not guilty, and that the charges of Bishop Burnett had been disprove ), but this charge had not been inquired into ; and although he declared he thought Lord Charles could not be guilty,. yet, if he thought that the statement was founded in fact, it was his duty to impeach the person who had been guilt,' of such an offence. It had been Isis determination, then,. to have the whole matter investigated, because he thought it due to himself, as well as to others ; but within four or five days after that debate, lie was called upon to appea r before the Privy Council in his professional character, uPon a case which very much surprised him. He had the brier , he believed, for ten days before, and previous to the eve' ing of the debate ; but the House and every one Imo'', well that it was no t th e pract i ce o f l awyers to look rime': into their briefs before the time they were called upon to argue, and in the hurry and pressure of business he had not opened it until the time he mentioned. He wa s ;- therefore not a little surprised to find, that he was a Coon' sel in the very cause which was founded upon that' grape charge against Lord Charles Somerset. It was an sr ' peal cause from the Cape of Good Hope against a deci sion pronounced by Lord Charles, sitting, by one of the ridiculous regulations which prevailed in the Colonies and most of our foreign possessions, as a Judge or Chan cellor—a regulation, by-the-bye, just as absurd as if Lord Wellington was to he made Lord Chancellor here or thereabouts.—(A laugh.)—The appeal was against the de eision of Lord Charles as a Judge, and he was Counsel for the Respondent. The Appellant objected to the decision , among other things, upon the very ground stated bf Bishop Burnett in his charges--that of corruption ; and it was the part of the Respondent to repel, by every means in his power, the charge of that corruption. Now, he would put it to any Hon. Member to say, whether, while he 1 05 arguing in one place that there was no corruption in the case, and that Lord Charles Somerset was innocent, he could appear in another place for the purpose of attempting to support charges proving him not innocent ? He though t he was bound to keep separate the duties of the Judge nil the Advocate, and he had th ere f ore th oug ht it fitting an right to cease from any further prosecution of those charges, while he remained in that condition. He now, however' agreed most fully with the Noble Lord, that the time was come when they ought to determine whether Lord Charles Somerset was guilty or innocent; so that the Goversingat ' might be at once able to determine whether he w as to ! be confirmed in, or dismissed from, the Government in which he was placed. Mr. WILMOT HORTON briefly replied, and conten d ; ed that the papers on the table would show the conduct 01 Lord Bathurst unimpeachable, and that Sir Rufane Donhin had no cause of complaint. The Hon. Member for Mon trose (Mr. Hume) had inquired the reason why the Go; vernment (lid not bring forward charges. Nothing conl" be more inconsistent than such a course, or more at vari ance with the practice of any Government. Mr. FYSCHE PALMER thought the question ought to be settled immediately. He thought that all the page' l ought to be produced which could throw any light upon the subject. The motion for the production of the letter addressed by Lord Charles Somerset to Lord Bathurst on the 90th April, 1827, and for a copy of the letter addressed by I. or , Charles Somerset to Sir Rufane Donkin in September 19 2 1 , as well as for extracts of a variety of letters and documents' was then read and agreed to. CRIMINAL LAW. Mr. PEEL gave notice of his intention to move to-ranr, row, for leave to bring in a Bill to improve the Adal'" nistration of Justice, by doing away with all the formal'' ties and distinctio ns w hi c h d epen d upon w h at i s cane' Benefit of Clergy. NEW SOUTH WALES. .../1 I Mr. W. NORTON moved for l eave to b r i ng i n a ,7h" to provide" for the administrati on o f J ust i ce i n New son"- Wales, and for the Civil Government of the Colony. Mr. HUME begged to know whether there was any in tention to improve the Governm en t o f T r i n id a d, with respect to its Council ? • Mr. W. HORTON said, there was such an intention, and measures were in progress to carry it into effect. Leave was then granted to bring in the Bill. " ELECTION EXPENCES' BILL. On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the Election El:. ponces' Bill went through a Committee; t h e Report °` which was ordered to be received to-morrow. • SPRING-GUNS' BILL. The Order of the Day for taking into consideration the Lords' Amendments to the Spring-Guns' Bill having been read, Mr. CHARLES CALVERT observed, that by t he f Amendments introduced into the Bill in the House ° Lords, it was rendered general ; and Spring-guns w ere , prohibited from being set for the protection of any b oth perty, except in houses. In houses they might he set b°' day and night; which latter permission seemed to hint an extraordinary one, and calculated to produce accident. l' at meant, therefore, to move, as an Am en dm e nt to th ia Amendment of th e L o rds—that nothi ng i n th e Act ab° ll be construed to ren d er illegal the s e tti ng o f spring-guns 'n man-traps in houses—the addition of the words, " di any garden, h o th ouse , or conservatory, enclosed by. a, w.- o f seven feet high ; due notic e b e i ng conspicuously O ren - their being so set." Mr. H. BANKES said, that the Bill, as a mended D / the Lords, differed from the Bill agreed to by the Cn tre ' t mons, not only in detail, but in principle. He was 13 . ° 0 disposed to confirm th e singular alterations which had b ee t ! made in the Bill .in the other House of Parliament, 31 ,1 1 0 should, therefore, give them his decided negative. By Bill, as it at present stood, various descriptions of proper`l would be left in a state of the greatest insecurity. Mr. PEEL had always maintained, that it was imp s ; sible to countenance the practice of setting spring -o° B ' the protection of game. However desirable that Pro t i 1 tion might be (and he was not i nc li ne d t o un d e rvalue t it certainly was not of such importance as to justify a P 0; ceeding which was acco m p an i e d w i t h h azar d t o Inn ee , life. But a wide distincti on oug ht t o b e d rawn bet tc t be the protection of game and the protection of property, 0 , security of which was essen ti a l to t h e ex i stence o f the P r se , prietor. To set spring-guns in gardens, having wa ll i ! ro n ven feet in hei g ht, was , sure ly, a ver y diff eren t thing ' 6OO setting th e m i n o p en woo d s an d co p ses f or the prnte e I ke of game. It oug ht a l so t o b e cons id ere d, that the of the country was no where so imperfect as in the ne' b ri c h bourhood of large towns. Precisely the districts in W ore the market-ga r de n ers r e sid e d, w ere th e di s t r icts which L .„,. , left the most unprotected. Ile had himself moved f or Committee to inquire into the state of the Police in 0 .. districts bordering on London. The fact was, that th e vvs , tural s; consequence of the good Police in London i t 0 04 . the banishment, to a distance of four or five miles all roxio, of that description of rogues who were the most obnoesidel to the possessors of market-gardens. They who n asnt near Richmond and Twickenham must have had "'H e be opportunities of knowing that such was the case. ta ken lieved that the increase of crime which had la tel y place, was principally confined to offences connected "vi such depredations ; and the frequent occurrence offences he ascribed, in a great measure, to a defescvasi r e - r , lice in the districts in which they occurred. It tainly most desirable to improve that police; but:ve improvement took place, he could not consent .F„ nu elr. otteth.f. the existing protection. An efficient police would be . better than spring-guns ; but until that police be , i blished, it would not be wise or just to take from_r r seseors of property the only protection they en j o y ed• Vir. it . PALMER oupprted the Menektieq t