The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-18 00:00:00

it was, therefore, material to save expense ; and he had 'Vended his sittings for an hour longer than expected, in order to kesp down an expense to that party of SOL or 901. ilut as the time approached when he should be at the drawing-room, he thought he should greatly shorten tltv road if he ordered his carriage to go through the Horse guards. H e should mention that he had been through the Horse-guards on the occasion of the Queen's drawing room, and when he was stopped on the occasion in ques tion, he supposed it was done by mistake ; and on being told by the officer of the guard that the Speaker of the House of Commons had only• permission to pass, he observed that it was very extraordinary that the same privilege should be denied to the Speaker of the House of Lords. The officer then said that Lord Shaftesbury also had the privilege for that day, and when he heard that he was confirmed in his opinion that the whole arose from tnistake—for as their Lordships had been occupied on the subject of privileges, it was to be observed that his Noble Friend was only Chairman of the Committees, and he concluded that he was not the person to whom the accommodation, as he thought, meant for the Speakers of both Houses of Parliament, WAS intended. The officer, however, satisfied him that there was no mistake, and he (the Lord Chancellor) said then that he must turn back. He would row mention a circumstance which he had been compelled to withhold from the Noble Marquis when he had the kindness to in form him of his intention to bring this matter before the House —namely, that he had given orders to turn back, but he supposed the footman had not communicated them on the instant to the coachman—and certainly he was neve r more surprised in his life than when he found his coachman had taken him throueh.—( Hear, and laughing.) He, however, thought it would have been ridiculous to have turned back—(Hear, and !aughing)—and the coachman had acted upon hi, former peremptory orders to go on.—(Hear.) had, in his conversation with the Noble Marquis, taken the whole blame upon himself, heine desirous to save the man ; and he could only assure their Lordships that he was the last person, either in or out of the House, to set an example of placing military discipline at defiance, and that he was far from enter taining the ides of forcing the Horse Guards, either by the mace or purse. English guards were not to be forced by the one, or to he bribed by the ether—and far be it from him to make the attempt. Nothing could be more foreign from him, than to sanction the breaches of any of the orders of his late or his present Majesty ; and he enter tained too high a regard for, and was too well aware of the necessity of military discipline, to attempt to violate it. He had only to add, that nothing could have been more correct than the conduct of the officer who commanded the guard—and he must also say, that the corporal and the soldier behaved with strict propriety. After a few words from the Marquis of LosnoNnteistr, which were not heard at the bar, the matter dropped. The Earl of FIFE presented a petition from the Rsyal burgh of Banff in favour of Peritamentary Reform, and he took that opportunity of correcting a misrepresentation of what had gone forth respecting what he had said on a late occasion. The observations he had then made re ferred, not to the Lord Chancellor's Reform of the Court of Chancery, hut to the Bill introduced by another Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Wynford). He disapproved of the latter, but he entertained the highest opinion of the nature of the former—and he considered that the Lord Chancellor conferred a lasting benefit to the country by the course he was pursuing.—Adjourned at Half-past Six. JUDGMENT. The LORD CHANCELLOR and Lord WYNFORD gave judgment this morning in the appeal respecting the elective franchise of the borough of Dundee, affirming the decision of the Court of Session, by which Dundee was deprived of its franchise, thus rendering the return of the Lord Advocate inegal, and null and void. HOUSE OF COMMO.A'S, 17. The House balloted for Committees to try the merits of the Colchester and Galway , petitions. There was not, however a sufficient number of Members to ballot for the Liverpool Election Committee, and it was therefore post poned till this day. REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. Mr. BODGES presented petitions from Rochester and other places in Kent, in favour of the measure proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. Mr. BERNAL cordially supported the prayer of these petitions. Mr. TWISS—Sir, I rise, not for the purpose of en tering into the merits of this petition, but to repel a charge which has for the last week been daily repeated against me, that in the original debate on this Bill I spoke of the middle classes with ridicule ; and though at the earliest possible moment—that is, when the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, concluded the speech in which he misunderstood me as implying such a ridicule— I distinctly disavowed any expression ar insinuation to any such effect, yet the charge has been circulated in a most industrious manner out of doors, and even repeated here, in a way which, after my itn mediate explanation, I cannot but think was as unparliamentary as it was calculated to be injurious. Sir, the classes in whose hands I said, and still say—not that all franchise would be dangerous, fur they have much already, but that it would be dangerous to place this monopoly of franchise—were not those who, even in the largest phraseology, could be termed the middle classes of this country. Of the middle classes I never spoke at all ; the phrase " middle classes " never passed my lips ; the idea of the middle cl isses was not even in my mind ; for my argument related to a totally different order of persons it was to the predominance of a body far below the middle class, both in property and intelligence, that I objected ; and even of this body, as a body, I spoke in no terms of disrespect ; on the contrary, though I objected to place the overbearing majority of votes throughout all the town elections of England in the hands of a single class, and that the lowest in property and intelligence, and compris in!, together with many whose respectability is unques tionable, many other very dangerous politicians, yet I distinctly and more than once repeated, that I meant no sort of disparagement to the general hulk even of the lowest rate of voters. I did, and do still, protest against giving to the inhabitants of houses rated at from 10/. to 20/. (as the printed returns show that this Bill will give to them, in every, quarter of the king dom, except the metropolis) a decisive majority—some 'what more than three-fifths of the elective power of all the towns in England. I did objsct to placing this overbearing force within the immediate sphere—not of the respectable solicitors of the country—but of inferior practitioners of the law—the description of persons whom the Act for Petty Courts would bring into operation against the more respectable members of the profession. I did object to increase the franchise of that lowest kind of shopkeepers, who, whether as out voters or as residents, have always been found the most open to bribery; but I did not object, as has been unaccountably represented, that even the humblest class of my fellow subjects should enjoy, proportionably with every other interest, its just share in that elective power. Neither did it enter into my thoughts to attempt what has been called making merry at their expence. The absurdity which I endeavoured to expose, and that in no strain of merriment or levity, was the absurdity chargeable not upon the voters, but upon the Bill itself, in making the whole Government of this country, its Constitution, its legislation, its finance, its foreign policy, responsible to a majority ; for it is a majo rity, composed of the uninformed, however respectable householders of the manufacturing towns. And as to the middle classes, to one of which I myself belong—classes which I never once named, nor even alluded to, but which I am daily calumniated, as though I had endeavoured to libel men, who in whatever branch of their various pro fessions, or trades, or pursuits, are placed by their cha racter and intelligence altogether upon a different level from that of the indiscriminate multitude now proposed to be made absolute in all the towns. In a word, as to all the middle classes, so far from uttering one word of ridi cule, I did not even deny their competency for the possession of political power, although I avow myself unwilling even for the sake of these valuable electors, to make any exten sive alteration in the principle of the existing Constitution. An Memera presented a petition from Kidder minster, in favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform. Mr. JOHN MART IN presented a similar petition from Tewkesbury., and declared he w ould feel it his duty to sup port tie Bill—the whole Bill —and nothing but the Bill. Mr. L. KECK, a similar petition from Losghborough, Harborough, and Castle Donnington. Mr. EVANS, similar petitions fro m the borough of Lei cester, signed by '704 persons ; and from Nlelton Mowbray and Seilby, in Leicestershire. Mr. HUNT presented a petition from a parish in York shire, praying fur Reform and vote by ballot. Ile said he thought it right to state that this petition was agreed upon before the promulgation of the Ministerial- measure. He also presented a petition from the Political Union of Worcester, in favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform. Also a petition for Reform from Elackley, in the parish Manchester. TIMBER DUTIES. Sir M. S. STEWART rose to present four petitions on a very important subject, to which he entreated the fa vourable consideration of his Majesty's Ministers. These petitions came from the ship-owners and merchants of Glas gow, Port GI tsgow, and Greenock, from the Chamber of Commerce of Greenock, and from the great body of trades• men and merchants, depending for subsistence on the equipment of British shipping in the Clyde. They in fact represented the whole of the shipping interest of the west of Scotland employed in the colonial timber trade, which constituted one half of the whole tonnage of the Clyde. He thought, therefore, these petitions well entitled to the attention of this house, and to the deliberate recon sideration of the intended alteration of the timber duties by the Government ; which alteration, if carried into effect, would most grievously affect the petitioners. The Hon. Member then stated some of the strong points of the case, and said that the petitioners, adverting to the irre parable injury which must then be inflicted upon the colo nial interest, could not forbear the strongest expression of their grief at the political results which must follow the measure in question, viz., the abandonment of a very large tonnage, and consequent annihilation of the property of the petitioners—the throwing out of employment and reducing to indigence a large number of valuable efficient seamen, and the infliction of severe distress upon numerous classes dependent en the colonial trade in the Clyde. He therefore trusted this House would, in compliance with the prayer of these and thousands of other petitions, prevent any alteration in the rate of duties payable on foreign and colonial timber. ST kGF, COACHES. The Nor. MEMBER also presented a petition from the stage coach proprietors of Glasgow, praying that the duty on stage coaches might be reps ded. CHRIST-CHURCH (SURREY.) Mr. HUNT, after stating that the inhabitants of this parish, although it actually is in Southwark, did not enjoy the right of voting for that borough, remarked, that it was left out in Lord John Russell's Bill, in the enumera tion of parishes to which the franchise was to he extended. This he considered an unconstitutional omission upon the part ti the framers of the Bill, and now begged to ask the Noble Lord if it were not so ? Lord ALTHORP replied, that he knew nothing of the case brought forward by the Hon. Member; but be had no doubt, that as the Bill had the power of adding parishes to the adjacent boroughs, the interest of Christ-Church would he attended to, if it were really necessary to inter fere in its b••half. Colonel BERESFORD presented a petition from the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed against the Ministerial plan of Reform. It was signed by several persons who had served a part of their apprenticeship, and they claimed to be entitled to their freedom as it would arise to them under the present state of the law. Colonel SIBTHORPE, as it was then seven o'clock, wished to have the time for presenting petitions further prolonged. He had two which were of considerable importance, which he was most anxious to present, and which he had used every endeavour to obtain an oppor tunity of laying before the House. There were many others; but those two especially caused him much solici tude. The time was now fast approaching when the question of the second reading of the Reform Bill was to coolie before the House ; and he really saw no other way of getting the petitions presented, except by prolonging the time every evening. . Colonel.DA . VIES protested against any pvolongation of the time. Any Hon. Members having petitions to present might wait until the orders and motions we:e disposed of and then bring forward their petitions. _ Lord ALTHORP said a few words which were not audible in the gallery. SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS. Colonel DAVIES rose, pursuant to notice, to move for a Select Committee to consider of the best mode of giving effect to secondary punishments. The increase of clime in this country was most alarming ; it seemed that the more we advanced in civilization and social improvements generally, the grievous exceptions of increased offences against the criminal law should go on augmenting. From the year 1811 to the year 1827 the number of convictions increased from 3,163 to 12,561, while in France, in the year 1826, the total number of the accused amounted only to 6,988 ; those acquitted to 2,640 ; those found guilty to 4,348 ; while in this country, in the same year, the number of committals was 16,147 ; those acquitted to 5,052 ; and the convictions to 11,095. Those were facts against which no reasoning or theory could prevail— neither could any Government be entitled to the appellation of a good Government wisich did not repress the commis sion of crime. They had heard much, on many occa sions, of the glorious uncertainty of the law, but in no ease was it more uncertain than in its criminal depart ment ; the chances of escape were much greater than those of conviction, and the obvious tendency of that was to increase the amount of crime. Then convicts were infinitely better off than agricultural labourers—better clothed, better lodged ; and to commit a crime, and be sentenced to what was called hard labour, amounted, in fact, to providing a very comfortable provision. The lion. and Gallant Member then referred to evidence given before Committees of that house upon the subject of the crimi nal law, for the purpose of showing that the convicts in the gaols were in a more comfortable situation than those who were possessed of freedom, but at the same time en during the existence of wretchedness. He next called the attention of the House to the inequalities which prevailed in the several systems of prison discipline, observing, that he should rather propose solitary confinement and bread and water, than a perseverance in the old system of what was termed hard labour, and what happened to be its ac companinasnt, comfortable living. Ile entertained not the slightest doubt that two months' solitary confinement on bread and water would prove greatly better calcu lated to prevent crime than twelve months' hard labour; thus would a saving be effected by relieving the pa rish from the expense of maintaining the families of prisoners, and the county rates relieved from the expense of maintaining prisoners. The hulks had been mentioned as a means of punishment, and he certainly thought, that if the labour was rendered more se vere,and the provisions and accommodation less attractive, the hulks might prove a good punishment. Transportation also might be a very efficacious method of punishment if properly followed up; but our system of transportation was as often a reward as a punishment. He had known a soldier, who was transported for several thefts, made a ship's steward on his way out, and liberated as soon as he got there, and taken into the Commissariat Department; so that he got rewarded for his guilt, while his comrades, who were innocent, had all the hard duties of soldiers to fulfil. To prove to the House what was the state of the convicts at New South Wales, he would read a description from an able and excellent work, in which the peculia rities of the society of New South Wa'es were accurately described. The work he meant was Mr. Cunningham's book on New South Wales. The Hon Member accord ingly read several copious extracts describing the demand for labourers, the condition of the convicts on their arrival, and the rapidity with which some of them made money and became men of distinction. It should be remem bered, that this colony, which, as a penal colony, was so inefficacious, had cost this country 400,000/. ; and if it was to be retained for the purpose, it ought to be made more suitable. His object in moving for a Committee was, to have the gaols, and hulks, and prisons, and penal colo nies, all places of punishment ; and if they could not be made places of punishment, to substitute some other pu nishment for them ; and lie would conclude by moving ' for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the efficacy of secondary punishments. Sir. LAMB did not mean to follow the Hon. and Gal lant Member through all his statement, or to refer to all the facts he had collected with great industry, and of which he (Mr. Lamb) had no doubt the country would reap time benefit. He only wished to suggest to his Hon. and Gallant Friend, that there were probably more difTl culties connected with the subject than he seemed to sup pose. At the same time he was ready to admit that, from the great and continued increase of crime, he con ceived it was the duty of every good citizen to pay atten tion to the subject, and devise means for checking the growing evil. The objections made by his Hon. and Gallant Friend were, that our prisons, and hulks, and gaols, were all too good as places of confinement. He ad mitted that they were conducted on too humane a grin ' ciple, but that, he believed, was the natural consequence of the very horrible state in which our prisons had pre viously existed. They were then not only the nurseries of idleness and vice, but destructive of the health of the 1 prisoners, ruining them both morally and physically. He admitted that the Legislature hail not intended that impri sonment should be death, and therefore it was their duty to provide healthy prisons for those who were confined. It was, perhaps, true that the living in prisons, also, was at present as good as the living of the labourers, or even better ; but that was time case only of late years. The prisoners must have the means of subsistence, and they get no more. His Honourable and Gallant Friend proposed to substitute for these punishments solitary con finement. He did not object to that being made a subject of consideration, but it ought to be remembered, that it was an unequal punishment, and, to most people, a very horrible punishment. He knew that solitary confinement was looked upon by many people with great dread. Punishment, to be equal, ought to be proportioned accord ing to the powers of individuals, and to do that was a most difficult task. It appeared by the police reports, that solitary confinement had no e ff ect on some persons, while on others it had a mo s t d rea df u l and terrible effect. He was deeply impressed with the necessity of adopting some of the useful suggestions thrown out, and should not oppose considering them in a Committee. With re spect to transportation, that was a punishment of which in general he highly approved. It removed suds men from the country, and allowed honest men room to thrive. It allowed to such men as had once been guilty of an of fence, and afterwards wished to return to the paths of honesty, an opportunity to do so. As to its not being a punishment, he knew from seine experience as a barrister at sessions, that many people felt great horror at transpor tation. He knew, too, from his own connection with the Home Office, that the applications to be allowed to return were very numerous ; and that numberless applications were also made to be permitted to stay at home. The Honourable and Gallant Member de scribed New South Wales as a healthy and fer tile place, which it undoubtedly was; but would he there fore wish to fix our penal colonies on some barren rock— some place like Fernandez Po, which he hoped would soon he abandoned ? He wished to acquire the fullest in formation on the subject of his Honourable and Gallant Friend's motion. He meant to throw no obstacle what ever in his way, but only rose to suggest that there were considerable difficulties belonging to the subject, and more, he believed, than his Hon. Friend was aware of. Mr. AUNT meant always to speak whenever the sub ject of prisons and confinement came under the consi deration of the House. There were then present in the Hesse Barristers, and Judges, and country gentlemen, all ready to legislate on the subject, hut they, he believed, knew nothing about our gaols. lie knew what a gaol was, for he had been confined in one. He had there seen something of solitary confinement, and he agreed that is was a good species of punishment—prop e r, perhaps, fur hardened criminals. He knew what it was, for he had suffered it.—(A laugh.)—The Hon. Member might laugh, but if that Hop. Member were t o suff confinement, it would make him laugh on the ot h e r si de e r solitary of his mouth. In the gaol where he had been, the gaoler had power to inflict solitary confinement.—(No , no, no.) He said yes, yes, and the Magistrates who pretended to regulate the gaols knew nothing about them. lie had seen men sentenced to solitary confinement by the gaoler, but he never knew those who had been so confined to again commit the offence for which they had been punished in that manner. Besides solitary confinement, there Ni ere some species of torture in our pole. The tread-mill was a species of torture. To the man who was accustomed to walk tip anti down stairs, and out in the fields, and who could sway his body to the motion of the wheel, the tread-naill was no punishment at all; but to the tailor, or any man whose business was chiefly performed sitting, it was most grievous punishment. If the visiting Magi strates were good for anything—and they were good for very little—they might regulate these matters more equally. All punishments, however, were unequal ; but if the teeect of the Government was to prevent the increase of crime, and to decrease that which, unfortunately, was increasing, it would not ohj ct to try some other plan. It was plain, from the increase of crime, that the pre sent method had failed ; and the country was surely not so wedded to its present method, as not to be willing to try some other means of checking the increase of crime. There was none better, he believed, none which had more influence on profligate and hardened offenders, than soli- tary confinement. He, however, wished that it should be introduced by degrees. He hoped that what he was about to say would be communicated to some of the Ministers connected with the navy. He knew that great dissatis faction prevailed among the workmen of Portsmouth dock yard, because they were obliged to work with the con victs. He had received a great many letters on the sub ject, and thought it was one which ought to be attended to. Formerly political offences were punished by solitary confinement. In 1819 and 1820, the people who peti tioned only for a moderate Reform, and did not use halt such strong language as was now used in petitions on this subject, were put into prison. Then the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended, and the poor petitioners for moderate Reform were shut up in solitary confinement—were de barred the use of pen, ink, anti paper—were secretly moved about from place to place, so that their families and friends could not tell where they were. There was a horrible case happened at York gaol. Two brothers, of the name of Riley, were put into solitary confinement for a political offence. They had done nothing but sign a petition for moderate Reform. One of these men was a weak-minded man, and he was thrown by the solitary conineenent into such terror that he cut his throat. What did the gaoler then do? Why, in order to punish the other brother, he threw him into the cell yet dripping and streaming with the blood of the brother who had committed suicide.— (No, no I—an exclamation of horror !)—That statement was Intiet true. The Reformers were then exposed to punishment for demanding moderate Reform, and now the Ministers brought forward large and comprehensive Re form. But he hoped those days were gone by. As to what was practised in gaols, he knew that in Uchester gaol two pretty women, who were sentenced to transpor tation, had been kept there by the influence of the gaoler, arid kept there for several years. One of them had a child in the prison, which was six years old, and had never been baptized, though among the visiting Magistrates were clergymen; but they knew nothing about the gaol.— (Hear, hear, and no, no.)—The way the gaolers exercise their power was to send the female prisoners into solitary confinement, that they might be in private with them ; anti these things were performed at Ilchester, which Mr. Fowell Buxton had stated to be one of the best conducted gaols in the kingdom. That might convince the House what was done in other gaols. Sir EDWARD SUGDEN had no inclination to ad dress the 'louse at any length, but he must say that be never had heard a speech in that House whic h so much deserved to be remarked as that which the Hon. Member his just delivered. Anything moro •outrageous than to refer to the proceedings of 1817 and 1819 at that time, when no motion connected with them was before the House, he had never heard. He remembered the circum stances of that time very imperfectly, but when the Hon. Member stated that the case of the brother, who was most unfeelingly shut up in the cell'yet with his brother's blood, who had committed suicide, and shut up for pu nishment, I e must say that the statement wa snot credible. —(Heer, hear.)—That a man should be so punished by any gaoler, anti because he was a Reformer, no man would believe. It was an unheard of cruelty, and he challenged the lien. Member to bring it before the House in a proper enanner. If such a thing had happened, he was sure that, without any respect to political feelings, the Members on both sides of the House would have risen up to protest with one voice against the nefarious transaction.—(No, no, and a laugh.)—He was sure that he was speaking the sentiments of Members on both sides of the Httuse. Any man who had so conducted himself would have met with the severest reprehension.—(Bear, hear. ).---No punish ment would be too great for such a wretch, and be could not believe that any gaoler had been guilty of the offence described by the Hon. Member. The Hon. Member, too, had attacked the gaolers in their absence. Was that pro per? And was it proper to asperse the characters of men who had no means of defending themselves? Were the gaolers to be stigmatised without any chance of defending their characters ? These gaolers had families and friends who would feel such assertions. It was particularly the duty of the Hon. Member not to make such observations, and lie ought, if lie wished to make them, to bring for ward a motion after giving notice, so that the guilty 0 1 4 might be condemned, and the innocent exonerated. He denied what the Hon. Member said of the. visiting Magis trates. He had been a visiting Magistrate himself, and had gone into all the wards and holes of the prison. lie had asked every person if he had any reason to complain. He was sure that the visiting Magistrates of the county were men of honour and feeling, and did their duty a , became them. With respect to the motion before the House, he thought it of great importance. He was one of those who wished to find a good secondary punish ment ; because he wished to see the punishment of death for forgery abolished ; and lie thought that hardly practi cable, unless such a secondary punishment were found.--- He would certainly support the motion, thot . igh he did not expect much good would result from it. All punish ments—even the punishment of death —were necessarily unequal, depending on the habits and manners of indivi duals ; and of all punishments, perhaps, solitary confine ment was the most unequal. He would roost readily ac quiesce in the motion, and give to the Committee every assistance in his power ; and he hoped that the result of its inquiries niight prove more favourable than he expected. Mr. HUNT explained. The lion. Member said, that if he, (Mr. Hunt) wanted to make a statement, why he did not bring forward a motion ? He did bring it before the House. his had sent petitions to the House, and Commissioners had been sent to llchester—(Sir E. Sugdcn said his observations applied to York ; Mr. /hunt repeated Ilchester.)—An investigation had taken place, and the Commissioners had proved that all his assertions were correct. The charges were proved, and the gaoler was dismissed. With respect to the occurrences at York, that, too, had been brought before the House by a petition—( A voice demanded at what time ?") In 1816 or 1817.' At that time there were 16 or 17 persons sent to prison for petitioning in favour of Reform. He defied the Hon. and Learned Member to contradict his assertion. Lord SANDON supported the motion. Solitary con- Elneinent produced different effects on different constitu tions, and one man probably would deriv e grea t er a d va n tage from it than another ; but he thought that, under proper regulations, anti with due care on the part of those applying it that it, was preferable to other kinds of pu nishment. Mr. H. SUMNER defended the Visiting Magistrates from the imputation cast on them by the Member for Preston. According to the regulations laid down in the Act of 1823, the female prisoners were kept totally sepa rate from the males, and placed under the superintendence of governesses and governors, that it was now impossible for the one to have access to the other. He believed, how ever, that the prisoners were invariably treated with too much indulgence, and enjoyed too large and liberal an al lowance for any purposes of }-roper punishment through the means of confinement ; but he had known cases in which a due applicatien of solitary confinement produced beneficial bffects on the most hardened offenders.—(Bear.) Alderman WOOD supported the statements of the Member for Preston, with reference to the had discipline of some of the gaols, and reminded the House that al though the facts of the petition of that Hon. Member were wholly discredited, and even denied by the Members for the county, at the time he was confined in Ilehester, yet, on the appointment of the Commission, which he (Alderman Wood) moved for, the whole of the accusation, against the gaoler were completely proved. (The Hon. Alderman then proceeded to say that he had one or two observations to offer on the hulk system, when an Hon. Member below hint rejoined, in a tone loud enough to be heard in the gallery, " Aye, do ; but make haste then.")—(A laugh.) He was sure it was quite out of order fur any Hon. Member to make use of such exprestions to another, and he thought the House should interfere to protect him. Ile was not to be put down by such observations, nor would he abstain from saying one word leas than he intended. He repeated that the hulk system was as bad as any system could be; omen were paid sixpence a day, when the country was charged one shilling and ninepence ; and he really must say, he thought it all a dead robbery on the country. With resitect to the Penitentiary, although so touch was said of the excellence of its discipline and of the good effects of con finement there, he believed that the millions it had cost were thrown away. It was well known that no men would be taken from Newgate for that place of confine. ment unless they had a perfect character for good conduct. They must, in short, he the best behaved convicts in the gaol ; but it was frequently found, notwithstanding the be nefits of a four years' confinement in the Penitentiary, and a previous good character, that they found their way back again to Newgate a very short time after they obtained their discharge. Convinced that the whole system of con finement was bad and demanded inquiry, he cordially supported the motion. Sir CHARLES BURRELL also supported the motion. Solitary confinement, as it existed at present, was not so great a punishment as it might be made, because the pri soners could speak to each other when the windows were open ; hut he thought tiro means of making it more effi cient as a punishment were well worth inquiry. Mr. SHAW said, he had always considered a fortnight's solitary confinement equal to several months' imprison ment. The House would therefore see, that even if ex pence was considered, the cost of solitary confinement would be less than time common imprisonment, which was found to be so ill calculated to produce good effects on the prisoners. After a few words from Sir T. Fremantle, Sir J. Car rington, Mr. Martin, and Mr. Wilks, in favour of the inquiry, the motion was agreed to, and the Committee appointed. MALT DUTIES. Mr. CURTEIS, at so late an hour, and with so small an attendance of Members, thought it might be supposed he did not think his motion on the malt duties to be of much importance, if he brought it forward o❑ that occa sion, and he therefore postponed it till the 2Sth of April. Sir W. RAE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to facili tate the transfer of heritable securities for debt i❑ Scotland. Mr. S. WORTLEY moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the fees and emoluments of officers of the Su preme Guirts in India. Mr. C. GRANT acceded to the motion, reserving to himself the right to object to any of the details of the measure. After a few observations from Mr. C. FERGUSSON, Mr. W. WHITMORE, and Lord SANDON, the motion was agreed to. The Sugar Duties' Bill was read A second time, and or dered to be committed to-morrow. The Interpleader Bid went through a Committee, the report of which was ordered to be received on this day week. The Witnesses' Examination Bill went through a Com mittee, the report of which was ordered to be received to morrow. The Prohibition and Mandamus Bill went through a Committee, the report of which was received, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. The Arbitration Bill was read a second time, and ordered to he committed on Wednesday. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and at a Quarter past Eleven the House adjourned. SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS. The Berkshire meeting, held on Wednesday at Abingdon, both in its proceedings and issue, may probably be taken as a fair sample of the. other county meetings on the same subject. The persons present, of all kinds and shades of opinion, were unanimous for Reform ; but its enemies professed only their objections to certain parts of the Bill pre sented to the House, and of course mean to attack it in the detail. But we should beg leave to'ask, whelce it is that they who but till yesterday were hostile to the slightest change, are now disposed to make such concessions ? They are no voluntary converts, and therefore must be watched, as de serters usually take some occasion when in battle, arid when their defection can do most mischief, of going back to the enemy. It would have been matter of regret, and probably of injury to the great cause and to the country, if we had not arrived at a crisis at which the present Bill was necessary; but we are convinced that if there had been pre viously the least disposition to concede any thing just to the people, the question of general Reform might have been eluded, arid We should have gone on patching for many years more. It was only the determined defence of every thing crazy, rotten and corrupt, by a mere oligarchic faction, — the insolent rejection of claims, however reasonable, —that made the people unanimous as one man in demanding a total abrogation of the borough mongering system, and a proptr extension of the elective.frauchise. And now our enemies turn upon us and say, " We always thought you had a right to so much : we never meant to deny that there was a great deal requiring alteration." Why did not you give us, then, so much ? Why did not you make the requisite changes ? You have had power enough to prevent, obstruct, and defeat the very minutest attempt at Reform, in spite of the people; and therefore, with the people to back you, might, with the greatest facility, have carried those improvements which you now tardily and unwillingly acknowledge to have been DO more than our just due, and what the Constitution, even in your view of it, required. Such an unbought, unprompted unanimity of sentiment never prevailed in this or any other country, as now exists here on the sub ject of the Bill before the House of Commons. Counties, towns, boroughs, parishes, hamlets,—all unite in calling for its enactment. The King joins with his people in the wish. He sees, in truth, where the Royal strength lies,—not in the selfish and effected devotion of a corrupt faction, which has obstructed the free exercise of every prerogative of the Crown, but in the love and attachment of his subjects. The meeting of the county of Hants took place yesterday. In short, we might dedicate our whole journal to these expressions of the public will, and should still want space. The Bill. has been in juriously and stupidly styled " a corporation rob bery," and Mr. Monck properly enough wiped off t hi s a spersion. It might, with perfect justice be designated—a recovery of stolen goods, from cor porations who have received and retained them, knowing them to be stolen.—Times. A great meeting was held in Dublin on Tuesday last, at which the Lord Mayor presided, and where a resolution in favour of the Reform Bill, moved by the Duke of ',duster, and seconded by Mr. La touche, v,act left by the latest accounts far advanced in i:s progress towards a nearly unanimous accept ance by the meeting. The fact of the opposition to it being set up by , Sir Harcourt Lees, and defended by the Rev. Baronet on his own very peculiar prin ciples, may be taken as an earnest of the fate which was about to befall it. We do not yet find that Mr. O'Connell's complaint of unfairness towards Ire land in the authors of the Bill has gained much ground in that countmy. The Learned Gentleman re proached Ministers for not having given Ireland a large augmentation of her county Members, England having received an increase of fifty-five. In sup port of this claim, Mr. O'Connell pointed out some counties—Cork and Tipperary amongst the num ber—which he stated to be more populous than any or most of those counties at this side of the water which are to profit by the additional representatives, It is possible that there may be more inhabitants in Cork than in Cheshire; but we should like to ask what description of-,inhabitants are they? Does Cork contain as large a number of individual: possessing 10/. a year freehold, or paying 501. per annum on a lease for yews, as the counties with which he has compared it ? If not, according to the principles of the Bill, which contemplates pro perty as the qualification, and dismisses numbers, the extra population of the Irish counties is a pauper. population, and ought to be treated like that of England,—that is to say, not intrusted with the pri vilege of voting for knights of the shire. But, Rays Mr. O'Connell, the county representation of Eng land has been increased by fifty-five Members, anti that of Ireland not at all. We answer, look at the amount of taxes paid by Deland generally, and see how she fulfils the terms of the Union contr:rct. By that treaty she ought to contribute towards the revenue of the empire three parts out of seventeen. Taking the whole revenue of the United Kingdom at 48,000,0004 in round numbers, three-seventeenths would be something near 8,500,000/., whereas the revenue raised in Ireland has not for some years pa=t, as we hear, exceeded 5,000,000/., or there abouts. Yet Ireland has retained the whole of LI representatives, though she has fallen short of her revenue by more than a third. But if England has gained fifty-five county representatives and thirty five or thirty-six others, let it be remembered that she has surrendered 168 borough members ; so tha' the comparison Letween English and Irish repre sentatives before the passing of the Bill and after it is as follows : In the former case, England had 513 Ireland Excess 413 WLereas, after the Bill— England will have 436 Ireland Excess . 333 Ireland thus gains by the Bill, in the proportion of 413 to 333; that is, England loses of her majo rity not less than SO votes. We trust, therefore, that Mr. O'Connell will be more at ease respecting the impartiality exercised towards Ireland in the preparation of this great measure.—Times. The French papers of Monday and Tuesday, from which we gave extracts yesterday, are full of inte rest, though they contain no news of striking no velty. They afford strong indications of the grow ing uneasiness and agitation in France, and of the general state of anxiety—insecurity—fear of change, and preparation for war, all over the Continent. As the watchword of revolution end the example of popular triumph went forth from Paris after the " glorious week" of July, so Paris has since become the centre of revolutionary movement,—the sense rium of revolutionary intelligence for the whole of Europe. Hence the National Guard of Warsaw fra ternises with the National Guard of the French ca pital, and old Lafayette is arrayed in the garb of a defender of Polish freedom. Hence volun teers, who fought the battle of July in the streets of Paris, are equipped by Committees of French revolutionists, to assist the Piedmentese in diffusing liberty over the north of Italy. Hence the popu• lace of the suburbs insist that Austria shall not re pel the proselytising aggressions of the " Italian Union," and are prepared to break the windows of Count d'Appony, as they have broken those of Pozzo di Borgo, should Austrian troops cross the Milanese frontier. Hence long descriptions of all the political insurrections which occur, and of many which do not occur, are greedily received and in dustriously propagated. Though the party for in ternal order and external peace seems now to have ' got the ascendancy in the King's Council., there appears rather to be an increase than an abatement of this disaffected, revolutionary, and warlike spirit. On pretence that the constituted authorities of the country and the powers of the general Government are not directed with sufficient zeal or energy to maintain the national sovereignty of July, or to repel foreign aggression, an association has been formed to resist the Bourbons and the stranger. The members of this society give the'r names, and 2d. a month to insure the independence of France, and the perpetual exclusion of the fallen dynasty ! In addi tion to this liberal subscription they pledge their lives and honour in the same glorious cause. But though the apparent means may be insignificant— even including the life and honour of the sub gproealitticeanldagpirtaotpioosae,d, or t a h s e a a k s i s i o il c i i o a- f t s i c o r n ib , e i r ts s— a f f o o c r u t s h o e f complement to the power of the ultra-liberal press, must be of extreme importance. The class of per sons who will enter it, the increased impulse whi c h it will give to ultra-liberal projects in the capital, and the dangerous action which it will exert, by affiliated coteries, all over France, may be inferred from the places to which the subscribers are invited to send their_ signatures, and the organs which they will be able to employ in disseminating their prin ciples. The offices of the Constitutionnel, of the Courrier Francois, of the National, of the Journal du Commerce, and of the Tribune, are axed upon as the subscription-rooms for this new uni versal club. The other ultra-liberal Journals will follow the example. The muster-roll will become nearly co-extensive with the number of readers whose passions are inflamed, or whose opinions are directed by the liberal press; circulars, addresses, and manifestoes, will multiply and find a ready mears of extensive propagation ; and in a short oacfgsaaubai against et t an nhoi political si una nimous Pirci al ready time, if the club is not checked at its commence. ment, it will command public opinion, direct the electoral colleges, domineer over the Chamber, and possess more power than the Legislature and the Crown put together. As the first intimation of this intended society appeared only in the papers of Tuesday, which arrived last night, we do not know how the proposal will be received by the public, or be treated by the Government. Its objects being legal and laudable, it is only the probable perversion changeionih)'asn 3‘ey u l . e s r a l en 'The vt,'ocehereeeducstBo: n c h s. of its power that can excite alarm or justify inter s ference. Journalism was considered under the Vil lele and Polignac Ministry as a new species of Go vernment,—or rather as an antagonist authority in the state, and, following out the same idea, we may say that this universal club will compose the army of the new- sovereignty. It is easy to see that it will rbiet-r directed,Cabinet in jhu aso t :f h e e fcoon fi r; r d s tee t instance, taitld. Teieshlsiiesd branded with disgrace by the ultra-liberal n o r; p o A i n u t g m u e s nt 1829,0 f t e asPtoilliiganatevhAilcih tits:ointter/P,e,riheirnattsid a l t iis ia f u ri l e ts n , ds an t d o hesitates dislike ;" the Courrier Francais boldly announces its distrust and aversion ; the Journal du Commerce declares open hostilities; and the Revo lution, the 7ribune, the Nati ona l, and the Globe, foam with absolute rage. M. Cassirnir Peder is calumniated as the friend of the fallen dynasty, and the enemy of the late revolution. Baron Louis supplies as many weapons against himself as he has exhibited inconsistencies in politics. M. d'Argout is denounced as the negociator between Charles X. and the Hotel de Ville ; M. Scbastiani is declared as the enemy of liberty, because he has refused to declare war against Russia on account of the invasion of Poland; and Admiral de Rigny is only pardoned for becoming Minister of Marine on account of the laurels of Navarin. We are not addicted to poli tical prophecy, but, from a knowledge of the power of the French press, and the recollection of the causes which have within the last few years given so many changes of Ministry to France, we should predict, that the new Cabinet will even be more short lived than the last, unless it changes its prin ciple:, and yields to the popular current. In order to put its system to the test, it will be immediately called upon to decide on the affairs of Italy. The notices in the German Papers leave little doubt that ant f A r, o u n s t t a i n a t n r d o o h p a s have Tintes. There was a nu merous mee ting yesterday at tl/1 Chancellor of t h e E xc h equer ' s i n DOWlliDg'streetl t he Members of t h e H ouse o f C ommo ns friendly to t r 1 plan of R e f orm b roug h t f orwar d by Lord J°ll, e Russell. Lord Alth or p state d that his object , v v entered alreatdhyepdauscsheyd of th jel requesting th e i r a t ten d ance wa s, t o request that te'' as friends of the measure, would, out of the 1 1 °" e i make known to ins Majesty's Grovernmeut, 0104 himself Lord John Russell, or any Cabinet INlM i is t i ß e td r i, (In it views as to any modifications in the ue ": 0 , compatible with the strict maintenance of the I ) r i , eiple of the Bill, of which they might think it 6 : l b l e ceptible. Lord Althorp further pointed mi lt h g danger that the whole measure might run a' " e ; -n- , defeated, if the friends of the measure were to forward alter at i ons i n d eta il, while the 0 0 °11e t il h ' e 5 .'ere contending, against the principle itself; m 1 eri >ther hand, that, by private communicat ; o n, reasonable modilicetion might receive considerao without disturbing that unanimity in th ° , 14t155 1: both at the second reading and when the 13' 11 s 'a s a l t Committee, which could alone ensure trittal-il:t success. The feeling among the Members P /I „ fi t ' e vi at the meeting was unanimous in adopting th e e d taken by Lord Altho r p, an d mere than one declAr his determination to s u pp ort th e whole -rne es „ u i r t e l; to • her titan press modifications incompatib le the principle, although, by so doing, they miglit l eo l a t t cur the risk of displeasing constituents befor e I soo they should have again to offer themselves. county Member declared that, s o c onvinced "' o t of the necessity of supporting Ministers in this gg o it end patriotic measure, that he should, for the ri y time, act with the thoroughgoing zeal af a in man. Lord Altborp expressed his confide oee se the passing of the Bill, and in reply to an inqu ir ,, f ne e to the day of its being com m it te d, sa id that, ref, elc- 'd ' being had to the importance of th e measure, D e 1, 1 1 not think that an earlier day than the first ore il d ....- after the Easter recess could possibly be tis e " . Herald. s l i We said yesterday that Lord Broughat” 5' watchful obstrver of public -opinion. He , 1.- ;pt feels its weight and its effect upon his ha °l " l :fie scheme. The alarm is sounded. In his Pl'i ce p d of Noble and Learned Lord pathetically compla' ll "i t e a " damage and danger to his Bill," and forth' e rit regiment of secretaries, purse-bearers, train-beat el, and philosophical followers, more act i ve alai i , eir t ee more numerous than " the Septuagint," tin e s. field in its defence. 'lO the charge of icreas e ' t he tronage the Times and Chronicle reply, th at Judges, Registrars, and Cl e rks "ere not at t ie posal of the Lord Chancellor," but are to ,L pointed by the Crown; and the Chronicle adds , the Lord Brougham will not accept the patronage ° 1 country Comm'ssioners—they are to be na me( 0 5 the Judges who go the circuits!" Such sta teale are hardly calculated to impose upon the al e `;.,, n . t s understanding ; and we will, with a few plain rye bi break through these defences "of fine did woven." In the first place, the original Big t o to authorize the Lord Chancellor, in express leOlhe appoint the registrars and chief clerks; but i n iott amended Bill, printed and issued on Saturdat - t he after publication of our exposure of the scheill e 'l proposed enactment is " cunningly" altere d "use the expression," of course, " according t° t , t he ancient rather than the modern understandieg °doe word"), and the power of appointment i 9 ferred, nominally, to the C'rown. We saY l ", j or tinily, because it is well known that whateve, f t4e, vial appointments in England are made by pi p er jesty are so made on the recommendation eit,,:feio the Prime Minister or of the Lord Chancellor. ''.eed of this patronage is at the disposal of or even e ° B ll ,iff in the Cabinet, as the Chronicle appears igro f sa id to assume; and between the Lord Chancellor ill the Prime Minister their distinct privileges ar e ;tt' understood and defined. fi s The Bankrupt , e `llr naent,lVlaster.hips in Chancery, &c., like b' s oie jesty's Ecclesiastical Benefices, under a e , e ,; 0 4 1 value, are in the absolute and uncontroulled Prier, of the Lord Chancellor. To the puhlie'O,e doubtedly, it matters not whether the patron a edilt the twenty offices in question is to be ve' te rn ett Lord Grey or Lord Brougham ; but if the Lord can now acquit his Noble Colleague of hip - that, and is willing to relinquish in his fav c/ e :se', wen undoubted privileges, let him grace ft " nounce the fact in his place. The sacrifice 013 Y.,;:(°, be borne by his Lordship—there will reil,(o3 him " thirty official assignees" and the 01 , 1 , 7 " - e 10; number of eighty country Commissioners. " - 5 03 elude the latter, notwithstanding the assertilo the Chronicle, because, according to the terra' ° „ t of clause, at page 11 of the Bill, the appointat'''oll) country Commissioners is really and v. ll ° lB° l'o l vested in the Lord Chancellor.—The Judge ° : p er several circuits are to r eturn list s of etii ifie- 0 11 ' sons; but the Lord Ch a ncello r i s to apprav e t i . n e d . ,l nate, and appoint. A n acc id en t a l er ror aPP e4 e . er our statement of yesterday. The sum of was printed instead o f 41,000/., th e sum prvl T - 0 0( mentioned. Correcting this e rro r , the ne w ,.' ti e v g al e ue o ........ ...... . .... .... 411 In London, 50 Offices, of the annual value of ...........•y' 0 4, ' 1 of In the country, 80 Conunissionershi f o tiVe .. 31 . 1)-31 >/` Total, 130 Offices in the patronage of the Lord CW.0,1 cellor, of the total annual value 0f... ...................... —Morning Post. On Tuesday a meeting of the frie ods , t ° I . subscribers of the Association for the Encouragenlionpur' Literature, was held at the British Coffee-house, Cc)°,o,g,e; street, for the purpose of electing a committee of °,tb A ment, and transacting other business connect ed ; l l o o /r , Society. Amongst those present were Sir PHILLIPS, Bart., Sir GEORGE DUCKETT , O rd o f CAMPBELL, the poet, Dr. GRANVILLE, Folt' S " a freO C A t ta CONOLLT, of the London University. In the " n his Grace the Duke Of SOMERSET, who e 1 ,% e ,,1 6 ,P — ,;; preside, the chair was taken by W. A. illAcxlSTyre.e-rt F.R.S., author of " The Rise, Progress , en' he re fi t State of Public Opinion." The Chairman rota ci t ac ol e o : o of the Provisional Committee, and from tha t 171 Abe and a series of resolutions which were ad°P, t b Wpb' meeting, it appeared that the objects contemlo,teti by to Association were to raise a capital of 10,0001.4 arjelirid scriptions of 501. each, from 200 gentlemen, o f°"„i i i; be enabled to publish works of merit, the auth t °p o l)* o # :night not be able to sustain the expense 0 ' l e ' r gee c o their productions ; that in cases of peculiar en' t ts v er suns not exceeding 1001. should be advanceAL W iye of class of persons ; and that authors should r ece proP t to centage, varying from 50 to 90 per cent. o n t))e ,t fg g filie the sale of their publications which should be ° do n: . st ied world under the auspices of the Assoei l peci" in of Chairman also stated, that the finances of tl ' e A l e ovi were already in a very prosperous condition,° bieoo ee p t 3,0001. having already been subscribed by 13 A o U f ei gentlemen who approved of the undertaking'preoeo the former were the Duke of SOMERSET, th e 2t pe ril° OP LONDONDERRY, and the Earl of DUDLEY. scoi°ole°, Committee, amongst whom were the Duke ° , vizo t the Earl o e; f taa D rui t (e • i n s LEI-, and Sir GORE 0 1 -T° l' ef° e° O s) a th, p av p vo o i n sg t e e ca i r l i w been na (Urn Committee nn..ed t e CAMPBELL, of it. e G t enuge.rall%,:lari jr : 1 1. :1 A i,go oel, DIED.—.III figeff,',ll't 86, Mr. JOHN BELL, proprietor of Beir , of the British Library, Strand, and pu sh Poets," " British Theatre," & c. - ladr , the j. BIRTHS. qr . On the 15th inst. in Baker-street, Portmao-4 , o f ' W. Corrie, hail of a daughter. to On the 13 st. in Northam ton-square: H. Seabrook, of a daughter. P 'l l4 MA RRI ED. Mick.'" 1,404 ' On the 15th inst. C. Atkinson, Esq., of the c d ~4 . Miss H. Swinley, of Lower Grosvenor-streetiv,ipe,e:ros, On the liith inst. at St. Pancras, Mr. J• late J. g ' s ß t u ea r f .y l, p t iac o l e ?l ß en ioe , youngest sury daughtctot the la Esq., On the Fah inst. at Clapham, J. Jones,,,,, t o 14' Merionethshire, and Finsbury-square, Lonau" ter of the late J. Gilliatt, Esq., of Cltipliai n. .11: l ' °° 10 03 blj' DI ED. 61, 110 1- On the 15th inst. Thomas Payne, Esq. , - of " seller, in his 79th year. vk rporl: Pg. (.1. 11 On the 14th inst. at Streatham; .T. •• 1 - O. sati house Academy, aged 78. ,„„). the " On the 14th inst. in her 611th year. ' t oe p er court, Esq., of Bermondsey. On the 15th inst. Mrs. Logan, of York-Pla ce, felt in her 54th year. A thi the tail inst. at Great Marlow, 1301514cflrie On the 16th inst. in Upper Baket-stree Marie, wife of Mr. J. H. Brown, aged 26. At YOLj l.l6' PRINTED AM) PUBLISHED RV IWO. SUN -rice, 112, Srmsrio.4"'" IE hallt, c f eff , f, fou th e Pr„ Horn 4 Majes e , h, lh ere 4 a d rt er kk, i4 u l 1 by 1 1 ..} . 'Pc( f 7t i i lat a p Co n , it `Co 114 f o ~dthe Petii '" a th ereaft er C~aUt, Al atom ( 4 . 1 4 ,! co 4.P l i of 7' in the In the 11 Perfi. Thai 1 1 to tlie lIEFo Cr a 1 I e ha , rm, " inst ' 44 1)r e h !! tt , Peril i t ~ ? bin atio