The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-22 00:00:00

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NOTICE is hereby given, That a GENE t4d RAL MEETING of the FRIENDS of the above ' ert aking will be held at the London Tavern, Bishops t°le-street, On FRIDAY next, the 25th of March instant, T 'velve o'clock, when the Public are invited to attend. men .vvetc Pot po whe re , and the ir hild Iy'° E. L. STEPHENS, Secretary. ft No. 12,020. LONDON, TUESDAY E ENING, MARCH 22, 1831. PRICE 7D. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS; IPIABem 21. The SPEAKER took the Chair precisely at Three o'clock, at which time there was a very full attendance of Members, and every seat was labelled. The gallery, and all the avenues leading to it, were excessively crowded. It being the last day for receiving private Bills the House was oc cupied until near five o'clock with private business. Which it could have been written. I thank my Honour_ able Friend for having brought forward this motion ; for, having now brought it forward, the House cannot shrink from voting it a breach of privilege —you cannot suffer the press to be brought before the attention of the House after this long series of attacks on the privileges and liberties of the House, you cannot pass over it in silence, without, in my opinion, a great dereliction of the duty to the country asd Constitution. ,vin been ' torn t hold o f un der lark g reen ad i-, of N 4 l . where the bundle to that day. the ad . a rs. i -en cawed t h e charge tted. ° Pa'slona • investla )athy. her a m oo he left the oogo" attr ibutab le ,,, t heir P . , rl-bridge the ), befO re A c e t 'vine seri.,, at the C°'l, 1 their iPtnenii, attar] of 7 u. , becau! .an, )ted towPtile *Gb ; but. 0 app., to trtiSt ee6' 11 14' MO 3 150 L 1 • `II b 45 wero to e Jnonu-bridi t o of . y Via , tight er father for' Vol'' • der' IC, CD II of Cant !der , do n) r sttn ich° l of tt ' Ir. j. 5 fatlirlfc vtre P iA'' '' 'ol°"e -r )V ?4 De' 1 I T MARY-LE-STRAND REFORM MEETING. March 21, IS3I. kT a numerous MEETING of the Inha bitants of this Parish, held this day, for the purpose 1 4. _N;ressin z their admiration of the principles of Lord Russell's Bill, to agree to a loyal Address to his Ma on the subject of Parliamentary Reform, and to Pe k. the H ouses o f L or d s an d C omm o ns th a t th e same Pass into a law, ' l r. T. ROBERTSON, Senior Churchwarden, in the Chair; Resolved unanimously, That th e i n habit an t s o f thi s P ar i s h f ee l th e most l i t l el lY and unmixed satisfaction in viewing the principle of for re f orm i ng th e representat i on o f t h e peop l e i n ; ; C omtnons House of Parliament, as proposed by hi s agI tYN Ministers ; and this Meeting cannot refr a i n l i li 4 expressing their sincere conviction that such Reform ke restore the true principle- of the English Consti " that th ere f ore i t d eserves t h e cor di a l an d ar d ent sup 'l of the whole British nation. tti !. That this Meeting feels called upon to demonstrate 15: 4 unbounded gratitude to their Most Gracious and h9tic Sovereign, who has sanctioned this wise and t measur e , and wh o h as pl ace d hi s con fid ence i n a 111 - N it 7 so well eatenl tted to relieve the distresses of the th i " by their manly and constitutional advice. That ) 4 : Meeting cannot Separate without expressing their p rnest th inks to his Majesty's Ministers for having pro gi so wise and liberal a m easure , justly calculated to satisf a ctio n to all classes of his Majesty's subjects. V.• That a dutiful and loyal Address be presented to his That Petitions, founded upon the foregoing Resolu -0;', be presented to both Houses of Parliament. F. ° ' That Sir Francis Burdett or John Cam Hobhouse, ( 0 1 . be requested to present the Petition to the House of (brnons. ; 6 . That Earl Grey be respectfully solicited to present petition to the House of Lords. A d ; That L o rd M e lb ourne b e reques t e d t o p re s en t the "es s to his Majesty. e• That the thanks of this Meeting are justly due to k r eC hurchwardens (Mr. Robertson and Mr. Bellringer) 1 41 , t h_e promptitude they have evinced in calling the pre '.Nleeting, and to Mr. Robertson for his able and hal -411!al conduct in the Chair. ha the above Resolutions be advertised in The Sun, °r ning Chronicle, and Morning Advertiser Newspapers. T. ROBERTSON, Churchwarden. VINTRY WARD. T a numerous MEETING of the Inha bitants of this Ward, held at Cutler's Hall. Cloak i4l:'etohel9tliof March, 1831, for the purpose of taking kp.ti °fnsideration the propriety of addressing his Majesty, petitioning both Houses of Parliament in favour of ktii:,'asure introded by his Majesty's Ministers on the Ject of Parliamucentary Reform, Mr. Deputy WHITpY in the Chair; t jite foll ow i ng R esolut i ons were moved, seconded, and tied unanimously equally disclaiming all attempts at Parliamen 'Worm, founded on Universal Suffrage, or of public 6ttltetnent, which may lead to a mischievous or revolu pegptry tend enc y, thi s M eet i ng i s ar d ent l y d es i rous o f the Representation of th e P eop l e es t a bli s h e d on a basis, and therefore hail with satisfaction the intro -Ition by his M a j es ty' s Mi n i s t ers , h av i ng a l so , as we un tstand, th e sanct i on o f our b e l ove d S overe i gn , o f a Bill , tl O the Commons House of Parliament, which, even with ;eh tuodifications as the wisdom of Parliament may deem i t qUisite, is calculated to secure the rights, and satisfy the expectations of an intelligent and increasing popula o, and is entitled to the admiration of the great mass of 'Majesty' s loyal subjects. 41442.f,0 ,12(ng 4 ) i a an humble and dutiful Address, founded upon Resolution, be pr e s e nted to hi s mos t graci 4;.4ajesty, expressive of our highest gratitude for his tr n ieb tY's paternal care, ev i nce d by th e un d ers t oo d sane lit°; ° I a measure so well ca l cu l a t e d to secure th e stabi eOPle,°f the Throne, and the liberty and welfare of the That Petitions be presented to both Houses of Par 111ent, found e d on th e f orego i ng R eso l ut i ons , praying , t ) , - , t he Reform Bill, now b e fore th e Hon. House of ,kl,l. 4l °°`, may be passed into a law, and that the 4th ;ells to his Majesty be signed by the Chairman, on kV of the Meeting, and the Petitions to the two t, t1 , 44 of Parliament now read, be adopted and signed "' Inhabitants. 1 .4 .hat the Thanks of this Meeting are due to his t ra Ministers f or th e i n t ro d uc ti on o f th e Bill i n to kit t :'Pent, and that the Address to his Majesty he trans to the Right Hon. Earl Grey, to be by him pre tiCito hi s Ma j esty, and that the Petition to the House Iti th °4l e be p resente d b y t h e L or d Ch ance ll or , an d th a t 1 1 % e House of Commons by the Ald e rman of the Ward, 6'}' Winchester, Esq. M.P. it tril That th e Th an k s o f t hi s M eet i ng are d ue t o th e ir es !,i4dett Alderman, H e nry Winchest e r, Es q . M.P., for his 44 1 " gentlemanly eL.,,luct iu acceeding to this Meeting tl4. e onvened ; and this Meeting is equally desirous of 4 114 / 4 1 to him the full exercise of his private judgment ko k j. e ° agency, as a Member of the Legislature upon this 6 . tt° Portant subject. N., That th e Thanks of this Meeting are due to Mr. i ti Z, Whitby, for his impartial conduct in the Chair. lo tti 'hat the Thanks of this Meeting be given to the I le:" Council present,—Thomas Whitby, Deputy, ktt th l, John Dines and John lon, Esqrs. for their prompt ItiiT e t : 4l and able ' s ' uppor t of these Resolutions, and to the B . „,°f the Inhabitants at all times. That the foregoing Resolutions be inserted in the alotnin' • g Papers. I ' v b 1 9 1831 JAMES LAWSON, Ward Clerk. , taS MAJESTY'S SHIP THETIS. .'ENCE ON THE CAPTAIN, OFFI CERS, and CREW of H. A S. THETIS. Th e PORTSMOUTH,:SIARCII 21. Court having been opened at eleven o'clock, Mr. read a very long defence for Captain Bargees, ~,,° c oupied on e ho ur an d t w enty minutes, in which v entedltq"a fully on the evidence of Mr. Gowdy, the 4 N„ , s bein g a t var i ance w i t h th a t of the other wit ' ill a° well as with the narrative of Captain Burgess, fl ed, truth of which narrative the master had before de ttlhttn.,e,eile particularly pointed , out . that the assertion of rs that when the Captain desired the course of b e to be altered, he (the master) had objected to th 'her t* t4set a , on, was not borne out by the evidence of any t, n i, "Bl and with regard to the testimony of Bur ,44ttedtue quarter-master, that when the Captain t the cou rse t o b e a l tere d a t hi r d t i me, t h e mas t e r t ° l : Present, it w as u tt er ly i ncorrec t, an d h e was qu ite thi B the would know how to estimate the evidence *ltness, from its very contradictory nature as corn ti:lth th a t o f a ll t h e ot h er w i tnesses, and dwelt muc h tilutct that the unfortunate occurrence arose entirely ' 4 °l lyt, unkno wn curren t w hi c h ex i ste d en t h at coast, ou eh carried the ship between twenty an d thi rt y t of her reckoning. Captain Burg ess th en ca ll e d ter Austi n a n d C a pt a i n C o ghlan, wh o spo k e i n very I,lar,of th e zea l an d a bilities of C a pt a i n B urgess, k 4 Ye ik ` al Y had k nown f or per i e d s re specti ve l y o f 28 an d c a, the master, then put in a written state tc''sve;'''uoh was read by the Judge Advocate. This, ti kt ,: tv as snore a narrative of the transaction than in 11f --re of a defence, and gave a detailed account of 4 l t4s 4t -rtu nate accident. The master then called several ti ,o(l put in several testimonials as to his cha qitlo;:licla appeared in a very advantageous light,— O r hili 7rl Y in two certificates, which were read, from Sir le ‘lniore and Sir F. Collier. ghse'it°urt was then (two o'clock) cleared, and re ,,,italf-past five, when the substance of the gen ytte Was as follows :—Considering the state of the "'° much dependance was placed on the dead te g , and that the soundings had been neglected, tb t kl 4t ,_ 4 attribut e d t o C apt . B urgess an d M r . G ow dy, Pk tt o tl ' e ,r but, in c o nsid era ti on o f t h e i r f ormer serv ic e s, tte ( l td adj u d ge C apta i n B urgess to lose one year's .. •Gowdy to lose two years' rank. The re• Neff '' d eers and the crew to be acquitted. t ilt:i:: 4 T paid a high compliment to Mr. Geach, for in savin g so many of thee rew. COLCHESTER ELECTION. Sir ROBERT HERON reported from the Contmittee on this election that the return of Mr. Spottiswoode was null and void. On the motion of an HON. MEMBER a new writ was ordered to be issued. GALWAY ELECTION. Mr. WARD brought up the report of the Committee on this election, which declared the sitting Member duly elected. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Sir R(51;;-1RT INGLIS said he had to request the at tention of e7rj House to a subject which he was about to Wring under their notice. It related to a newspaper which he had had put into his hands. It was a consolation to him however in bringing the subject forward that he was not oar qf the pirtieractly affected. 1 - .te never had at any titss4,..e . asists 4:01%101.14 of any paragraphs affecting himself, but he should be unworthy of a seat in that House if he had not, when such a paper was put into his hands, called attention to it. It was extremely important, when on the eve of a discussion like the one of that night, that Hon. Members should not be labouring under the influence of threats. He, there fore, requested the serious consideration of the House to the attacks that had been made on what was called the constitutional conduct on the part of all those who opposed the measure. The paper to which he referred was called the Times.—(Hear, hear.) He understood it was a re spectable paper as regarded talent, but he could nut think it respectable as regarded its motives.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Other papers had been equally violent, but he had chosen rather, as the Times was one of the greatest circulation, to select that. He was not in the habit of reading the Times—(Hear, bear)—but he was told the paragraph he complained of was only one of a series that had been daily issued since the Ist of March, the day on which Lord John Russell brought in his Bill of Reform. They had regularly continued up to the present day, and were calculated to degrade the House, and hold it up to odium with the people.—(Hear.)--- They were legislating with doubie odds in the gallery against them.—( Hear, hear, hear.)—He should therefore, as a Member of that House, betray his duty to his consti tuents, as would also every other Member, if they allowed one of its Members to be insulted in the measure they had been by this paragraph. The Hon. Baronet the❑ read extracts from the Times leading article of Mon day, the 14th of March, the reading of which was received by considerable cheering in the House. Isle had no wish to check fair discussion; he bad no such object to obtain, but it could not be endured that paragraphs like the one in question were to he published day after day with impunity. He would repeat, he did not stand up there to crush free discussion ; but it was very desirable that a breach of privilege, calculated to disturb freedom of debate, should be brought under attention. He believed the last time that a similar motion to the one he was about to make, was made by Mr. Fox, against a paper then in existence, called the Public Advertiser. He (Sir R. did not consider himself affected by the charge, but he considered that by allowing such a paragraph to go forth to the world, without the expressed opinion of the House upon it, the respect and confidence of the people would thereby be forfeited. He, therefore, moved that the para graph in question be read by the Clerk of the I louse. The paragrapla_was accordingly read. " When, night after night, borough nominees rise to iffiest the proceedings of the House of Commons with arguments to justify their own intrusion into it, and their continuance there, thus impudently maintaining what the lawyers call an ` adverse possession,' in spite of judgment against them, we really feel inclined to ask why the rightful owners of the House should be longer insulted by the pre sence of such unwelcome inmates ? It is beyond question a piece of the broadest and coolest effrontery in the world, for these hired lacqueys of public delinquents to stand up as advocates of the disgraceful service they have em barked in. Of two conditions, these persons must be in one or other: they must either have bought the close bo rough seat which they fill, or they have sold themselves bodily to him who has the disposal of it. It is impossible to get into Parliament for a close borough but on either of the above conditions. Yet, is there a single individual amongst them who has had the truth or honesty to tell the House of Commons, I have paid 5,00 u/. for this seat, the continuance of which I am now defending;' or, I have sold myself to the patron of the borough, for his permission to be one of his members?'" The HON. MEmsEtt then resumed. He felt it unne cessary after what he had already spoken to say another word upon the subject. He should therefore move that the paragraph read be considered as a false and scan dalous libel upon the House, tending to deter Mem bers thereof from the discharge of their duties therein, and tending to alienate from the House the respect and confi dence of their fellow-subjects. Sir R. GRESLEY seconded the motion, and com plained of an attack made by the Press on himself. He did not speak unadvisedly or without due deliberation on the subject, but he felt it was the bounden duty of that House to check that course of abuse and invective, in which almost the unanimous Press of the country had joined. Lord ALTHORP rose merely to put it to the Hon. Member whether it were advisable, on the eve of such an important discussion as pressed then upon the House, to propose such a resolution without giving previous notice to the House') Sir 11. INGLIS considered it was not usual to post pone the consideration of a question of libel.—(Hear, from the Opposition. ) Mr. CALCRAFT did not believe that the paragraph in question could at all have the tendency which the Hon. Member for Oxford seemed to conceive. He thought there was nothing so much calculated to lessen the confidence of the people in that House, as any attempt o❑ its part to infringe on the liberty of the Press. He did not believe that the paragraph in question was libellous, bat even if it were considered so, the Attorney-General was the proper person to take notice of it. Mr. BARING agreed, but on different grounds, with the Honourable Member who had just sat down. He hoped the subject would be left as it was, that what had passed would operate as a notice, that while the liberty of discussing what passed in that House with freedom, might go on, yet that those discussions were to be carried on with a little more decency. Mr. PERCEVAL rose with considerable difficulty, as he had not intended addressing the House on the present occasion. He certainly could not by any means agree with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that the subject having been brought before the House ought to be passed over. He bad not long ago given his opinion upon the state of the Press in this country, and it now being again mooted, if the house of Commons got rid of it in the way proposed by the gentleman who had last sat down, that House would lose its authority and lose its character by any such a proceeding more than by any act of violence the House could be guilty of—l say (continued the Han. Gentleman) the question having been brought before the House, if we decline to proceed, if we decline to visit this gross breach of privilege as we ought to do, if we shrink from doing our duty cm this occasion, we give an ascendancy to the Press which it cannot obtain by any other means.—(Cheers.)—lt may be a question whether at this time the subject ought to have been brought forward, but it having been brought forward I ap prehend there is but one course to pursue, namely, to vote it a breach of privilege, and to follow that up in the usual way. I was not present when the Hon. Baronet brought forward his motion, and I do not know, therefore, whether he called the attention of the House or not to this being a part of a long continued series of paragraphs, which could only have been written for the purpose of preventing Hon. Gentlemen from doing their duty, to prevent them from giving their votes against the Reform Bill, and for the purpose of libelling their characters if they did vote for that Bill. The paragraph to which my Hon. Friend has called the attention of the House was the climax of this series; and it is impos sible to doubt that the writer meant thereby to deter men from doing their duty—to hold them up to scorn and reprobation if they did—to represent them as in. famous Members for boroughs, who would not dare to again face their constituents if a general election took place —to render the whole discussion of the House of Commons contemptible in the eyes of the country, and to promulgate a belief that that discussion was conducted by men who had no right to be there, and to vote in the affairs of the country, being only the slaves—the hired lackqueys of corrupt Peers. —(Cheers.) This was the only intention with Sir FRANCIS.BURDETT rose and said, I am not exactly aware of the exact words that have been used, but I agree with the Hon. Member who has just sat down, that the Press has with very great perseverance, with very great integrity, and with very great ability etteo ceted the cause which is now at. issue between the horookh mongers and the state of this country. I am not the least afraid of any course that may be taken on this occa sion. Any course that may be taken will tend to bring to issue the opinion of the country upon the corrupt system which has so long existed ; and I will trust to any Jury —to any tribunal—to any collection of English men who have the slightest feeling ; in a word, to any collection of men in England, except those who I have now the honour of addressing within these walls—(Hear, end a laugh)—the subject with more than perfect confidence. I declare that I am perfectly sa tisfied of the fate of this House. Had the fiat not gone forth ? and as to their character being libelled by an honest writer in a public paper stating that fact—(Hear, hear, hesr)—are they ashamed of it ? The corruption of returning Members to this House is as notorious as the sun at noon-day; and when we are forced to see Members get up because the privileges of the House of Commons are violated forsooth—because the,Press states the exact state of the thing—(Hear, bear, hear)—l should like to ask the Honourable Mem ber, who is so tender of those privileges, why he overlooked the vital and fundamental privileges of the country, that of Peers, or the Press, or any man, however high, not being allowed to make a traffic of the seats of that House, without its being considered one of the greatest breaches? The Hon. Member continued to debate the question at con• siderable length. He was satisfied that the time was now come when the base and nefarious traffick ing in boroughs would be put an end to. Which ever course might be decided on, lie considered that that House was certainly not the proper forum to pronounce a decision on the conduct that had been complained of. It was against reason to suppose that the House was both accuser and Judge. He himself had been consi dered. as a libeller of that House, an d h a d su ff ere d what he considered its greatest punishment. He re membered the time when such a system as was at present pursued would have to be spoken of with the utmost tenderness; but since the year 1807, when Lord Castlereagh and Mr. Perceval were detected in this scandalously traffickine system, and when they turned out an Hen. Mt /Weer for not being present to vote in favour of the measure they brought in there, the public had taken notice of this corrup tion and handled it in a very different style.—(Cheers.) He agreed with the writer in the Times entirely, that the boroughmongers ought to have the decency to withdraw. —(Cheers.)--He could hardly flatter himself they would do so, but he thought that this was the right course. He was perfectly satisfied that if they voted against the present question of Reform, their votes would have no more effect than if they had whistled to the wind. In his view of the case, it was a matter of perfect indifference whatever course the beroughmongers pursued. He thought they would hardly be so indiscreet as to adopt any proceedings against the writer of this pa ragraph at this period of fermentation ; but if they did, he was quite sure that the damage or compensation awarded for any infringement on their supposed virtue would be extremely small. Sir C. 'WETHERELL said, that there was no man who was more an advocate for freedom of speech, and no man more permitted himself freely to use his speech, than the Hon. Member for Westminster, who was a great friend to freedom of debate in that House.—(Hear, hear.) The Hun, Baronet set out with being a lover of popularity —he was an advocate of freedom, a great theorist, and a great practiser of the doctrines of liberty and equality.- -(Cheers, and " No, no !")--but, at the same time, since he (Sir C. Wetherell) had had a seat in that House, a more dictatorial speech, more dictatorial in language, more dictatorial in manner, more dictatorial in principle, more full of usurpation, more full of that arrogance which carries the dictatorship of tyranny into the freedom of de hate, he had never beard. The declaration of the Hon. Baronet had never been equalled in that House. The Hon. Baronet bad the presumption to recommend the bo rough Members to retire, of whom (said Sir Charles) I am one.—(A laugh.) Does he dare (continued Sir Charles) to call upon me—does he dare to call—does he presume to call upon me—(A laugh)—does he dare to call upon Honourable and independent Gentlemen —Gentlemen as honourable and independent as he is— (Cheers. )—Does the Hon. Baronet, I say, dare to call upon me to go out of the House, and not to vote on the question which is to revolutionize the Legislature ?—(No, no !) I say yes. The Hon. Baronet advised the borough Mem bers to go out of the House. This is the most ultra dic tatorship—or I will say, as the Noble Paymaster of the Forces said of one the other day, the plus ultra dictator. ship—over the debates of this House that ever was known in a public assembly. Shall I retire when the Hon. Ba ronet keeps his seat ?—(Hear, hear.)—Shall I go out while he keeps his place on a leather cushion?--(Hear, hear. )—When the Hon. Baronet, with due liberality, re commended me to go out, does he think that lie is to be allowed slyly to blackball all those Members who will not vote for the revolutionary principles of a Jacobin revolu tion ? He could tell the Hon. Baronet (Sir Charles continued) that the borough Members would do their duty. After commenting at some further length on the dictatorship of the Hon. Member for Westminster, the Hon. Baronet proceeded to discuss the question before the House. The Hon. Baronet had only drawn a short cons elusion from long premises, he had indeed had nothing but premises, anti he hoped that the House would allow him to lay down his premises before he came to a conclusion. He had been a reader of the Times. The foreign articles of that Paper were written with greater ability than those of any other Paper, and for those he read the Times. His name was not, he believed, alluded to in the paragraph referred to by the Hon. Member for Oxford ; that paragraph was not one of those which might apply to A, B, or C, but it described the case of all those whom it was proposed to expel from the House, or not less than 160 Members. That pe.ea graph was a libel on that House and its Members, and proscribed 160 of its Members. In his view of the para graph he did not agree with the opinion 51 the late Pay master of the Forces (Mr. Calcraft). If his Right Hon. Friend looked at it, he would sec, that it did not depend on the Press if its libels did not take effect. His Right Hon. Friend did not like the form of expression in which his Hon. Friend had clothed his motion, but, for his part, he did not object to it. He did not know that be should, himself, have taken notice of such a libel; but it having been taken notice of and brought before the House, there could be no doubt it was a libel ou the House, and a gross attack on its privileges. He woeid conclude by saying, that be had never given a vote of which he was more con vinced of the propriety than lie was of the .vote he should give in favour of his Hon Friend's motion.—(Hear.) Sir CHARLES FORBES regretted that the motion of the Hon. Member had not gone further, and taken into consideration the ether numbers of the Times. If he had gone to the paper of the 2d of March, he might have in troduced some more revolting specimens of the gentlemen of tile Press, and of their endeavours to stigmatise as scandalous those who dared to show their faces again in t h e House, should the Parliament be dissolved. That paper said, and he remembered the words well, " that the now infamous and marked-out nominees of Peers and other opulent persons would be justly handed over to condign punishment or popular indignation, if they should dare to obtrude themselves into Parliament." That and similar passages had struck him so forcibly, as being ex ceedingly offensive and of an infamous character, so con trary to the just and proper liberty of the Press, and so licentious, that he carried the paper down to the House, in tending to call the attention of the House to the subject. He consulted persons of high authority on these matters, bta i whichn g. and they preferred treating the matter with silent-con tempt, saying, that if it were publicly mentio ne d it the would give the paragraph ivas t(liieastironuosteroif o notoriety Editor of the Times (Hear, hear.) There was some truth, but, be thought, mere (sager in that opinion. It was evident that the House encourages, by its silence, and by not noticing such attacks, the Press to proceed in its present course, He saw this, but he was in part reconciled to silence by its being observed, that these paragraphs were the mere productions of an anonymous libeller. Those who wrote such libels were no better than cowardly assassins ; and if they were not as cowardly as they were licentious—if they bad the spirit—tbey would be cowardly assassins. He hoped that the people would have more good sense than to allow their judgments to be led astray by what these papers said. He had heard no person speak of these paragraphs but with indignation. The Hon. Biironet (the Member for West tninster) had attempted to defend them, and in his opinion the defence and the cause were worthy of each other. He trusted that no Hon. Member would be intimidated from doing by the th reats o f suc h men . H e h ope d that th l eyw ty ould do their duty conscientiously, and be trusted they would stand firm, though they should pay with their lives for the performance of the duty. He at least was determined to resist, at every step, this most re volutionary measure ; and if it were carried, he did not believe that the same class of men as at present would find their way into the House of Commons.—(Question.) — The ornaments of the House, the greatest men, the -riofightest patriots, had found their way into that House through the means that were now denounced by the Noble Lord—with no great consistency, as the House and the country might know by comparing the Noble Lord's plans with his written works; and if those denounced means were done away, such men would no longer find their way into Parliament.—(Question.) Lord ALTHORP—Sir, it is impossible for me to deny that the paragraph brought under the notice of the House is a breach of the privileges of this House— (Cheers)—but I think it is a different question, in what manner we ought to treat this publication. Upon a question which interests the people of the country in the way and to the extent that this Reform question interests them, it is true that violent language—that unjustifiable language—is used by advocates and writers on both sides the question—(Cheers from all sides)—but when the Hon. Baronet says no attacks have been made, except upon those against the measure, I must deny the truth of that remark. Do sot we who advocate the measure see • ourselves daily called revolutionists ?--( Cheers. )—Do we not see ourselves attacked forendeavouring to produce revolution. * --(Cheers.) Upon a question of this kind I must admit that the public Press has used language that cannot be justified, but I ap peal to the prudence of the House, whether this is a case in which the privileges of the House should be vindicated with any degree of severity, when the public feeling is so strongly excited. I have experience enough to know that when questions of a breach of privilege are brought forward, it is difficult to induce the House to look at it in a temperate manner. But if we are carried away by our feelings now, I ask the House, whether such proceedings will be likely to reflect credit on this House, and if not inconsistent with the forms of the House, I beg to move the previous question, instead of coming to a decision on the motion. On the amendment being put, Mr. CAMPBELL referred to the cases of the Queen's Trial and to the period of Catholic Emancipation,, toshow. that in periods of much popular excitement warm and in temperate language had generally been overlooked. He complained of the Hon. Member not having brought for ward the subject immediately after it had occurred ; it ought to have been on the moment. The House had sat every day last week, even Saturday, and yet not one word had been said on the subject till that night.—(The Hon. and Learned Member made some further observations, which, as ha spoke from under the gallery, were not audible ) Mr. C. WYNN regretted that he could not vote with his Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear.)—Whether or not it was desirable to have brought forward the subject was one thing, but now that it had been brought forward he was compelled to say _that the House could take no other course than to declare that it was a libel, and au infringe ment on the privileges of the House. Considering the na ture of the great question before the House, the para mount interest it had excited in the country, and the great talents that had been called into the discussion, he thought some greater latitude might be allowed than ordi nary circumstances. If the discussion had been confined to the defects of the Constitution, and to show the neces sity of reforming it, he would allow great liberty. But what was this writing ? It went to deprive a great part of th e M e mbers of that House of the freedom of deliberation. He hegeed the second pa r ,graph referred to might be read. The Clerk accordingly read the following paragraph When night after niKht, borough nominees rise to infest the proceedings of the House of C ommons w i t h arguments to j ust if y their own intrusion into it, and their c on ti nuanc e there, thu s impudently maintaining what the lawyers call an adverse i possession,' n spite of judgment against them, we really feel in clined to ask why the rightful owners of the House should be longer insulted by . the presence of such unwelcome inmates ? It i s beyond question a piece of the broadest and coolest etfron_ tery in the world, for these hired laequeys of public delinquents to stand up as advocates of the disgraceful service they have embarked in." The Hon. Member continued—lf that were not the despotism of that arbitrary system of liberty which they had seen elsewhere—if that were not the introduc tion into this country of that system of tolerant intole rance which would allow no liberty to any opinions but its own—be did not know what was. It was said that it was not prudent to commit the House to a contest with the people, which was undoubtedly a subject of serious consideration. But it could not be doubted that these lib e ls would go on increasing if they were unnoticed— would not any person who might be brought up at a fu ture time justly complain of the House in allowing writers to go such lengths, and havi ng passed over these l ib els as u nw orthy of notice? To that c ourse , th en , h e cou ld not assent. He knew the inconveniences to which public men exposed themselves by embracing the course he re commended; he knew the penalty they must pay, and he was not afraid to meet it.—(Hear.) Sir JAMES GRAHAM had heard the speech of his Right Hon. Friend with regret, but not with astonish ment. He was aware that his Right Hon. Friend had a partiality through his whole life to support the forms of the House, and, therefore, he was not surprised at his speec h . He bad heard, however, that speech with great regret, for though he was aware of the opinions of his late colleague and Right Hon. Friend o n th e su bj ect o f Re form, he was himself sincerely and ardently desirous that the House slionid come to a favourable decision on that great T4estion.—(Calls of " Question.")—lf the House would allow him, he was anxious to be permitted to say a few words, though he should be reluctant to infringe the rules of the House. He knew its general courtesy, and should be ready to bend to its wishes. He was about to say, that though no man was more ardently desirous than he was, that the great measure which had received the sanction of the administration should be approved of by Parliament, yet there was one feeling in his heart which was more ardent still, and that was, that the discussions on this question should be conducted so as to preserve the peace of the country, and the stability of our institutions, and that there should be no excitement of any angry feelings either in that House or the country. Entertaining that wish, he thought it was most unfortunate that the Hon. Mem ber for Oxford should h ave regar d e d i t as hi s d u ty to bring before the House a question of that nature, when the eyes of all the country were turned on the House, and all the . nation was waiting i n b rea thl ess expectat i on for its dem • sion. H e was sorry th a t hi s H on . F r i en d bad deemed it his duty t o t urn as id e a tt en ti on f rom t h a t great question to a conflict between the privileges of that House and the freedom of the Press. It was desirable that there should be no such discussion between the House and the Press before they came to settle the great question of the even ing. He hoped he should not betray any soreness on such a subject, hut week after week—Sunday after Sunday.— (Hear, hear)—some kind friend of his who hadprobabl y left the warm precincts of office—(Hear , hear)—" cast. ing long lingering looks behind him"—(Hears and a laugh)—made attacks of somewhat the same description on him and the Right Hon. Friend who sat near him. r tl ec e ted to wasrer in i a nd i e n d tbdeayeouarfsteerofdatbye o d f eba t t h e e bqyuetbsteionHodni: Member for l3orou g hbridge (Sir Charles Wetla!rell), and he asked what will your constituents . at GJekerm out h saytoth terms this.—(A ( trus of rcas Alaugh s . a )l ir a ie t nd was vilified and abused in the coarsest ridic u l e; but was he deterred from the fulfilment of his duty b y t h e repetition of these attacks ? No. If he wanted any addi tional stimulus to pursue the course he had undertaken, and to discharge his duty to his country and to his consti tuents honestly, fairly, and conscientiously, he found that stimulus in the attacks to which he was thus subjected.-- (Hear, hear.) If, however, these attacks are to be taken as questions of privilege on one side, they are equally so on the other ; and those who would punish the news ' papers for what they may consider as libels, will be bound themselves to abstain from many of those observations which had been used but too freely in the course of the debates on Reform. It will be their bounden duty to sup press all those paasages in the speeches of the Members which stigmatise the measure of Reform now proposed by the Mi nisters, under the sanction of the Sovereign, as tending to bring about a revolution.—(Hear, hear.) Why, it was the other evening, in the course of the discussions, that an Hon, Baronet (Sir H. Hardinge) declared that the Re form Bill would, if carried, shake the Crown from the head of the Sovereign.—(Hear, hear.) That sentiment had been since repeated in the Muse, and echoed in the newspapers—(Hear)—and yet no one on that side of the House had thought of t rea ting it as a breach of privi lege, or an invasion of the right of free discussion.— Better at once shut up the gallery of that House, and pro claim to the world, by a rigid enforcernent of the standing orders, that no strangers shall be admitted, nor no account of the proceedings of that House go forth to the public.— They might as well put an end at once to all free discus sion as to attempt, by a proceeding like that recommended by the Hon. Baronet (Inglis), to endeavour to prescribe the limits in which it is to be carried on. Of the danger of that course to the country and to the Constitution he had not, however, the slightest doubt ; and in so much dread would he hold the prospect of such an event, that although the passing of the Reform Bill was one of the objects dearest to his heart, and which he considered likely to prove most beneficial to his country, yet he would be content to forego Reform itself, rather than abandon that freedom of discussion and publicity of their proceedings which was 30 essential to the preservation of their con stitutional liberties.—(Hear.) If he was called on to ex press an opinion on the subject of the article in the Times, he would say with the Noble Lord (Althorp) that he could not defend it ; but he called on them, at the same time, when they proposed to deal with this question in the man ner recommended by the Hon. Baronet (Inglis), to con sider that they were a deliberative assembly, and that they could not, as parties, exercise a sound discretion in the ca pacity of Judges.—(Hear.) He agreed in the force of the observations of the Hon. Baronet (the Member for Westminster), with reference to the language of some of the petitions which had been presented, and which that House had not hesitated to receive and to allow to be printed. The Members of the Duke of Newcastle had been,spoken of in these petitions ; the boroughs of Lord Fitzwilliarn had been alluded to ; and could they, after having thus admitted themselves to be nominees, declare they were the real representatives of the people.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet concluded by observing, that he thought what had been already said and done on this sub ject would operate as a salutary warning on both sides; but if the Mon. Baronet pressed his motion to a division, he must oppose it for the sake of the peace of the country, and the safety of our public institutions.—(Hear.) Sir H. HARDINGE thought, that the Right Hon. Baronet who had just spoken, although he deprecated further discussion, was one of those who had done his utmost to prolong it.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had gone out of his way to select au illustration for his argument, and had chosen to mix up an expression of his in reference to the Reform Bill, with the subject then before the House, as if there was something in his obser vation in common with that libel which every Member of either side condemned. —(Hear.) Was there anything in the expression of an opinion that the Reform Bill had a tendency to loosen the crown on the head of the King, to be found in common with the language of the libel in the newspaper, that the Right Hon. Baronet should find it necessary to advert to it so poir.tedly?—(Hear.) Was he (Sir H. Hardinge) to be debarred from the expression of his opinions in that House, because libels were published out of it ? Did the Right Hon. Baronet mean to make it a parallel case, and to say, that the expressions which fell from him with respect to the Reform Bill, and that he had expressed his opinions on the Reform Bill as indiscreetly and coarsely and improperly as the libeller in the news paper ?—(Hear) Another Hon. Member had atigma• tised him as a boroughsnonger, who ought not to have a seat in that House. There were, however, some borough mongers even among them most closely connected with the Government. He srw sitting beside the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) at that moment a Member of the Government, who sat for a borough closer by far than that which he represented, and, indeed, one of the closest in the country.—(Hear, hear.) (We believe Lord John Russell was the Member alluded to). He begged, how ever, to remind the Hon. Member that he had re presented the city of Durham in that House for more than nine years, and that the number of his constituents were at no period less than 1,200. He now, however, represented a place where the constituency was not so numerous, but lie could conscientiously declare that he was as free to speak his opinion and to give his vote on any subject at that moment as he was before. What right then, had the Hon. Baronet to stigmatise him as unfit to sit in that House from being a boroughmonger.— (Hear, hear.) If it was possible for him to forget the courtesy which was due to the Hon. Baronet (the Mem ber for Westminster), he would say, that if the Hon. Baronet presumed to insinuate he (Sir H. Hardinge) was not at liberty to express his opinions freely and fairly in that House, he flung back the imputation with scorn.— (Hear, hear.) He regretted the debate which had now taken place. He regretted that the Hon. Member for Oxford had brought the question before them, and he was sorry for the occasion of it. He was not, however, to be deterred by clamour from the expression of his feelings with respect to the Reform Bill. He respected the opinion of the people and their claims ; but when the Constitution of the country was at issue, he was prepared to come before the people and resist the fulfilment of their view of the subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by declaring that he was determined to do his duty, and to express his opinions fearlessly and conscientiously, in spite of the taunts of the Hon. Member for Westminster, or the clamours and at tempts at intimidation of any party either within or with out that House.—(Hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL defended the expressions of his Hon. Friend (Sir James Graham), and denied that his Right Hon. Friend intended to draw any comparison be tween the expressions of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Hardinge), and these of the writer in the newspaper. His Right Hon. Friend merely wished to show the heat and strength of expression which had been occa sionally drawn forth by the discussions in which they were engaged. The Noble Lord then proceeded to observe that the House should pause before they committed them selves to sanction the proceedings now recommended— for they who proclaimed the language of the newspaper to he false and seditious—they who were attacked were now about to inflict the punishment; and, with their pas sions inflstned by hearing the offensive passage read to them by the Hon. Member, they refused even a day for con sideration before they cams to their vote of censure and condemnation.—(Hear.) lie confessed that be thought the course they were pursuing would have an effect the reverse of that which they anticipated. The people at large, who disapproved of that House constituting itself at once a❑ accuser and Judge, were too much in the habit of taking a very different view of such proceedings, for they frequently pronounced those who suffered by them to be martyrs, and elevated them into heroes.—(Hear.) He had, at one time, in vain pressed the House to pass over a vote of the same description as that which was then re commended. Au Hon. Member had written a pamphlet which gave great offence to that House. It was deter mined that he should be committed to Newgate ; aqd what was the result ? He was returned most triumphantly as Member for Westminster at the next election.—(Hear.) If he could suppose that, by supporting the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxford, he cc,cid deter others from similar offences, then he should not hesitate ; but as they could not hope that, he .thought that the preservation of freedom of discussion would be materially affected by con senting to the course which was proposed. Sir F. BURDETT said he was always disposed to adopt that course which lie thought best fitted to secure the rights of the people. The Hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Hardinge) said lie had no constituents.—(Cries of no ! and spoke! during which the Right Hon. Baronet re sumed his seat ; but he immediately rose again, in obedi ence to the louder and more general call from his own side of the House.) However much lie might be disposed to regard the Hon. Member, lie must be permitted to say, without intending to give him any offence, that when the state of the representation and the vital interests of the people were under consideration, as he understood them now to be on the question of Reform, he was determined to do his duty, in spite of all the clamour and in defiance of all consequences. The Hon. Member had placed him in the situation of one of those who had no constituents.— (Cries of no.) Sir H. HARDINGE, in explanation, said the Hon. Baronet had made a mistake ; in persisting to assert that he had no constituents. The borough lie now represented had now, in the year 1931, a greater number of votees than it possessed at the time the franchise was first con ferred on them, and many more than it had in the year 1695, when the representative system was settled, at the Revolution; and he might add, that, for the last fifty year, the number had gone on increasing every year.—(Hear.) . Sir F. BURDETT said, that however distineuisl el the Hon. Gentleman might he as a Mender of that House, end however honestly and efficiently he might fulfil the du ties of office, still he wanted the essential quality of a re presentative of the people—a large body of constituents. With respect to the Reform Bill shaking the Crown from the head of the King, he must say that, in his opinion, i..t would het it more firmly on his brow without that dim ming of its luetre, which was the consequence of its pal ticipating in the abuses of those who had properties in boroughs.—(Hear.) Sir R. INGLIS, in reply, said, he might have concur red in the proposal of the Noble Lord if there had been a single individual found in that House to defend the lan guage of the passages he had brought under its attention. He could not abandon his motion, for. if he did so, he thought he should ba abandoning his duty. The House had a jurisdiction on the question of its own privileges which it was isounsi to support; and unless it was pre- , pared to renounce the rights it possesses) on such occasions, it must, when a subject of this kind was brought before it, be prepared to do its duty. It might be a question whether be had exercised a proper discretion in bringing the matter before the House. In his own opinion he be lieved he had done his duty, and he then:fire persisted in his original motion; adding, as an amendment, that cer tain passages in the limes Newspaper of the Ist, 2d, 7th, 9th, and 14th of March are false and scandalous libels, and that that they be banded over to the Attorney- General, with instructions to prosecute the writer. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but Mr. HUNT rose amidst loud cries of " Question," and persisted in addressing the House, notwithstanding the noise by which he was assailed. He said their patience must be great to overcome his, for he was determined to speak unless the Speaker told him he was not in order.-- The Hon. Baronet who brought forward the motion wished the Attorney-General to prosecute ; but were they sure, although they might pronounce the articles to be libellous, and the Judges agreed with them, that twelve Jurymen could be found to agree with them? Notwith standing the coarseness of the language used by the writer in the Times, he (Mr. Hunt) asserted that every word of the article was true..--(Hear, hear.)—Tbe question was whether they would agree to a resolution declaring asses.. tions false which every man in that House knew to he true ?—(llear.)—A Member behind him (Mr. Hume, we believe) intimated to him that he would only do the Times mischief.—(Hear, awl a iatih.)—He repeated what he had said ; and be thought that House, in the last act of its life, would be true to the character it had main tained through its career, if it came to a vote pronouncing that false which every man in the kingdom knew to be true. Strangers were again ordered to withdraw; but Sir R. PEEL rose and said that as the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) had in his motion referred to papers which he had not read, these papers should be also read and Laid on the table before the House came to a decision on their contents. Sir R. INGLIS said (as we understood) that they con tained passages of the same tendency as that already read; and his motion now was, that they be delivered to the Attorney• General to consider the nature of their contents, and to prosecute, if he found that a prosecution could be supported. Air. O'CONNELL said the expressions in the Times were coarse, and not to be justified. But u ere they not " true ?—(Hear.)—The Hon. Member for Borouabbritige (Sir C. Wetherell) bad himself partly admitted that they were so. He condemned the whole proceeding as impolitic and unjust, and as a gross attempt to accuse and punish at the same instant. In his opinion, it would be much more decent not to go to a vote on a such a question. The House was following the practice of Ithad;kmantlius— they pronounced the guilt of the accused, and then sent him to be tried.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL said he regarded the present proceeding as purely preliminary, and it should be marked by a spirit of regularity as well as justice. Reference had been made to other papers which were not before the House; and he confessed he could nut make up his mind on the question with respect to them, for he had not read them until they were placed in a connected series before him. lie had heard the first, but the House was about to commit itself on several others, of which it was presumed they knew nothing. He suggested that these papers be also read. Sir R. INGLIS said that they were all of the same character and tendency, and he wished to save the time of the house by abstaining from reading them. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL expressed his surprise that the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) complained now, for the first time, of language contained in paper', not ene of which was less than a week old, and said nothing of fensive in any of the succeeding day's papers ; and he was the more surprised, because the lion. Baronet had spoken to him on the subject. and even put the pipers into his hand, without intimating his intention to proceed in that manner. He would not say be had expressed an opinion that it was or was not a libel ; but coarse he had admitted it to be, although false be really could not call it.--( Hear.) He thought it, and he now said, it was highly desirable that no proceedings should be taken on it with respect to any supposed breach of privilege ; and so far from believ ing that language of that kind would induce any Member to abstain from opposing Reform, he thought it would have a directly opposite tendency, inasmuch as it induced men, front a sense of pride and of honour, to persist in supporting that system which had subjected them to such attacks from their connection with it. He thought, on the contrary, that attacks in language such as that of which the Hon. Baronet complained, were calculated to defeat the carrying of the measure of Reform, and to confirm the opposition of those Members who, although not ac countable to large bodies of constituents, were, he believed, acting on a principle of honour, although lie must say that he thought their opinions were liable to be biassed by their situation. He concluded by expressing his regret that a question of this kind had been brought forward on the eve of the greater debate, and under eircumstinces which bore the appearance of a disposition to delay the decision on the most important topic which ever came under their consideration. After a few words from Sir C. WETIIERF.LL, Sir R. PEEL disowned, for himself, an intention to obstruct the debate which was expected, and observed that he had not even heard of an intention to make such a motion until he entered that House, and heard that it was commenced. He trusted this explanation would clear that ride of the House from the prejudice which might be raised against them by the Learned Gentleman's observations. Mr. SLANEY, amid loud cries of " Question !" con tended, that the people would look on the whole proceed ing as an attempt to set aside the decision on the Reform Bill.—(Hear.) Sir R. INGLIS thought the Learned Gentleman (the Attorney-General) should not have referred to the conver sation he held with him on the subject of these papers, unless he had also repeated the nature of that conversa tion. He (Sir R. Inglis) would not follow his example by detailing the nature of that conversation. Al he would say was, that he had seen some of the papers that day fur the first time, and he was ready now to read the passages to which he alluded, if the House thought proper.— (Cries of no.) The Gallery was the❑ cleared; but we understood that the motion was withdrawn. On re-entering the Gallery we found Sir G. CLERK on his leg., with a petition, we be lieve, against the Parliamentary Reform Bill ; but the anxiety of the House to proceed to the discussion occa sioned loud cries of " No, no," upon which the Hon. Baronet postponed presenting his petition ; ob-erving, however, that was the first time that he had be ind any objection made to the presentation of a petition upon the subject. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. On Lord JOHN RUSSELL'S rising to move the order of the day for the second reading of the Parliamentary Reform Bill, . _ Sir H. HARDINGE said, that he thought it was highly important, before proceeding with the English Bill, to know what were the exact provisions of the Irish Bill? He begged to ask the Right Hen. Gentleman op posite, therefore, whether the Irish Parliamentary Reform Bill was ready, and when it would be brought in ? Mr. STANLEY replied, that the Irish Parliamentary Reform Bill was ready ; and that it could be brought in at any moment; but that as it was understood, that in bringing it in, he (Mr. Stanley) was expected to explain the details of the measure at a greater length than that at Which they bad hitherto been submitted to the House, he was unwilling by doing so, to obstruct the proceed ing on the more general measure. lie repeated, how ever, that he was ready to bring in the measure moment at which it might be required. Sir 11. HARDINGE differed in opinion from Right Hon. Gentleman. He 'thought that the HoLse the measure fur , , ought to be in possenen on of thrrkolip, „ proFIFE HOUSE, WHITEHALL. be SOLD.—This splendid MANSION, vt the resid ence o f th e l a t e E ar l of Liverpool, with jPuperior accommodation for a large family. Held the Crown for a term of years. ~.ratticulars and cards to view, at Mr. Arher's office, 17, Bond-i,tre , ,t.—All letters to he post..p