The Sun. — London, England, 1831-10-07 00:00:00

%widen changes would produce greater evils than the worst form of Government could, by any possibility, inflict; therefore the American Constitution was remarkable for this, that it could not be overturned without the most calm and deliberate discussion, and without being sup ported by such an overwhelming majority of the wealthier classes as placed resistance out of the question. Now he wriuld put it to their Lordships, did the present Bill settle anything, or, rather, did it not unsettle every thing 1" A Noble Earl near him had read an extract from a periodi cal work, the "Notes American Reviev," published at Boston, in July, 1831 ; but, terfortunately, that Noble Earl did not complete his quotation, and it was the more to be regretted, as the work was one of considerable depth of thought, and soundness of reasoning. This writer, occupied in discussing the prospect of Reform in Europe, says— €, The necessity for farther Reform Will also be more apparent as soon as the application of the new and uniform system of suit (rage shall take place. At present the right of. suTrage is very variously exercised in the different boroughs. 'VS hen it becomes uniform, and the election is made to &Vend on the number of the inhabitants in the several boroughs possessing th e flan ,- i t , qualifications, and when great questions come to be derivk'sib - small majorities in the House of Commons, will We 'unre )re y :vented, or inadequately Ve.aresented populatim, to i th - abuse ? Will Leeds, asisl Manchester, and, L'Aerpool, submit t e be represented by the same number et' Members as the old bo o _ rotre;lis, whose population is ever so little over 4,000 ? Surely not. 'Those who suffer by the imperfed application of th e ride orsk re o system—that is, the majority 4' the people—will elambtir to have it carried through; and tlyey will have reason and Conitrion sense on their side. Mr. Canning and the Anti-lieforinists could answer them; but Lord John Russell cannot. The bite of the present sysdem is, that it is the rule of three Plan, ',vitt] a blunder in working the question. The viSteicin is, if the borough A ha's 4,000 inhabitants, and scuds two Members how many . Mehthers shall the borough ' B send, Which has 10,00 ' 0 ? Loot . .I . 6l'in Russell works the question thus :as 4,000 is to 2, so .is '.0,000 to But kt is not. As 4,1n0 is to 0, so is 10,000 to h. 4 1 - ben if Lord John Russell should say, that, after all, he ddes not follow the rule of three principle; the next question trille, what principle &you follow, in disfranchising wholly OA! boroughs under 0,000, and half disfranchising those Under 4,000? It is to be considered fur ther, that the population (*England is exceedingly hotriogeneous. The people, on an average, are as enlightened, and well-inforined in one borough and in one county as another ; and if they were not, Slit reformed plan does not attempt to give any prethrence to the more enlightened few over the less enlightened many. 'l'o tare manifest injustice of such a state of things as already existing, the Anti-Reformer has his answer ready ; and it is an answer in the spirit of the British monarchical :System. We take the re presentation as welind it, among ty'Se traditions of the monarchy. specific abuses of bribery and Corruption, we are willing to cur. sect by disfranchisement in the individual case; but we Will dis franchise no corporation tin the rule of three system. The mode rate Reformer can pis.e ho answer ; he can neither plead tradition nor the rule of three. He sins at once against the genius of the British Constitution and the four rules 01 arithmetic. He can stand neither upon Lord Coke nor Coeszer ' the jus Parliamen &ilium nor the multiplication table. But it is by no means the most momentous consequence of the nese plan of British Repre ssentation, that it must infallibly lead to radical Reform and a geographical representation in the House of Commons. How ' will it affect the other institutions of the monarchy—the House of Lords, the Established Church, and the hereditary Crown ? On what foundation do these all rest ? Is there any other than tradi tion and prescription ? When they are subjected to the test of the political metaphysics, which decide that no borough of less than 0,000 inhabitants shall retain the franchise of choosing Members, can these other institutions stand? We think not. The right of Old Sarum to send Members to Parliament is as suredly as ancient as the House of Lords. Old Sarum was a city before the Peers of England were a MUM of Parliament. The whole Parliament of England once ,at within the walls of this ancient city, now to be deprived of the franchise which it has enjoyed for so many cer.'curiets It la true that Old Sarum, now reduced to a wheat-f-eld s entleved by a mound, is a very different thing from what it was whets It was first summoned by the King's writ to send b;argesses to Parliament. But is it more changed than the House of Lords is changed from its original character and core:position I" He goes on to say— "'While, then, you disfranchise Old Sarum, because it is a theo_ retical absurdity that an individual Nobleman should, as its pro prietor, return two Members to Parliament, how can you defend the still more stupendous absurdity, that some three or four Inin dTCCl Noble individuals, neither richer nor more enlightened than as many thousands in the community around them, should ac tually compose one entire }Rus e o f Legislation, independent of the people and the Crown, and transmit this great franchise to their posterity? We again wish the precise point we are labouring to be mio'lerstood. We are not now arguing against a Rouse of Lords ; to moot that question in this country, would be like reviving the Ptolemaic system ; but we are maintaining that the reasons alleged for disfranchising Old Sarum go the whole length of disfranchising the House of Lords. It may be said, that there is no clamour against the House of Lords, and that there is a s - cltement clamour against rotten boroughs. This is a reason of a different kind ; and the tact, we believe, is partly so. The Whig Aristocracy do not yet clamour against' their own order;' on the contrary, they manfully sustain it; and the moderate Reformers go along with them in this respect But is a majority of the 'mop le of f , England, numerically en ; is t r i !c r, al!y ee t r a ag ke e n i , ,o f i r t i l t a i friendly l t y , it t( t i t t a h n o hereditary douse Read the extracts from the penny Papers in The Quarterly Review for last October. Recollect the manner in which the axe was laid at the root of the House of Lords in the time of Crom svell. We know the Statesmen who bring forward the present measure do not propose to destroy the I'cerage ; but will the like forbearance be observed by the agitators whom that measure will bring into Parliament, and by the people, whom that measure will instruct in their strength, and animate in their zeal ?" These were the opinions and arguments of the American writer, and he called upon any Noble Lord in that House to refute them. But now, to come more particularly to the Bill under consideration, he objected to it for this amongst other reasons, that the old system of representa tion in this country was general, whereas that introduced by the Bill was departmental—with the example of France then before their eyes, he trusted the House would pause before it rushed madly forward into a revolu tionary current which would sweep before it every thing that the country bad been accustomed to respect and reverence. Again, he would ask, was there any thing so inviting in the example of France as to induce us blindly to follow that example? The Noble Earl re erred to the Unions with Scotland and Ireland, hut the analogy did not hold between the circumstances of those countries respectively and of those in which the empire at large was placed at the present moment. What was done at the period of the Union of either country ought to form no rule for subsequent proceedings. Ile really was sur prised to see the Noble Earl endeavouring to justify injus tice by injustice ; but, then, the Noble Earl went off from that argument to take up another argument, equally un tenable—he maintained that the disfranchisement of bo roughs was in perfect accordance with the ancient prac tice of the Constitution ; he would maintain it was no such thing, for the date of the Constitution could not be carried further back with propriety than the revolution of ItiBB—it was then the Constitution was settled. He was ready to abide by the disfrancbisements of boroughs which took place since 1688, hut he would hear of none others, for none others could be brought legitimately within the real practice of the existing Constitution of Great Britain. He would now come to an argument upon which the Noble Earl appeared to lay peculiar stress—that which was founded upon its being assumed that the franchise was a trust, and not a property ; but he would maintain, that if a trust, it was one of those trusts to which were incident many of the rights of property—in truth, it was rather a privilege than a trust. It was somewhat analagous to an ad vowson ; but could advowsons be confiscated ? There was yet another argument of the Noble Earl with which he should have to deal ; namely, that by adopting the pre sent measure, the country got rid of the system of govern ing by patronage. Was there no patronage in the whole sale creation of Peers which had recently taken place ? If that was a specimen of the no-patronage which the country had to expect, he must be allowed to observe that the ar gument could have little value in the eyes of impartial and intelligent men. The circumstances, too, under which the increase was introduced, and the time chosen for it, formed with him powerful objections to it. The period was most unfavourable to calm deliberation. Not only was the state of France and Belgium opposed to anything of the sort, but even our domestic condition was most unfavourable for a degree of excitement heretofore unexampled. Want of employment led to riot, and the disbanding of the yeomanry left the Government without the means of put ting down disturbance. Finally, he had no difficulty in as serting that the measure was calculated to deprive the people of their senses, to drive them to madness, and to produce any thing rather than that which its promoters anticipated. Let the House only look at the effect which the bare announcement of it had upon the people. Let them look at the rejection in their respective counties of such men as Sir Edward Knatclibull and Sir Thos, Acland. Amongst the various arguments by which the present mea sure was attempted to be sustained, one surprised him not a little, recollecting the quarter whence it proceeded. When he looked upon his Noble and Learned Friends, and recollected how the Woolsack was occupied, lie could not but be surprised to find it maintained that the system worked ill, when talents and merit had the fullest and fairest opportunities of being rewarded. No, a closing of the door against merit was not the vice of the present system, whatever its faults might be, and he believed its greatest defect was, that it afforded to its enemies too great facilities in the work of its own destruction. One of the principal seeds of that destruction was, that the schoolmaster was abroad. A vanity had been generated in modern days, which led men to despise all that their ancestors had venerated. Could it be asserted that there existed any where in the world a system at all approach ing the British Constitution in excellence ? In the pro tection of that Constitution he would call upon the Right Rev. Bench to unite. In the time of James the Second, their predecessors had given the tone to public opinion, and be entreated them now to exercise their influence for the good of this country. He had promised that he should not long detain their Lordships, and he should n ow only say, that notwith s t an di ng the respect which lie entertained for the Noble Lord who introduced the Bill, and his high opinion of his talents, his most cha ritable wish for th at Noble Lord was, that th e measure, whether it succeed o r not—(Hear, hear) — m i g h t not bring him down in sorr ow to the grave.—(Hear, hear.) He would not affront the House by much allusion b usioo y to the possibility of their Lordships being influenced the threats thrown out against them from many quarters. Indeed they who hold out those menaces denied that they had any intention to menace the House, although one of those persons, a gentleman of the other House of Parlia ment, spoke of putting their Lordships into schedule A.— (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) A Noble Lord whom be did not now see in his place, had said something which seemed to him (Lord Falmouth) to be pretty nearly of the same tendency. He did not exactly remember the precise terms, but he hoped that the Noble Lord's sentiments were not so cautiously enwrapped, or so delicately expressed, as to him they seemed to be, and that there was less of covered meaning in his language than might at first be supposed. —(Hear, hear.) H e (L o rd Falmouth) would not hear it said that their Lordships were not part of the people. They would prove that they were so, and that they felt with the people, and that they had a due regard for the people's intereet by rejecting the Reform Bill, A Noble Marquis opposite had spoken cf the great Reforms which his Majesty's Ministers had effected in the law. Now he (Lord. Palmontlr) would say, " Show me these great Reforms and I will support them ;" and further, " Show me the imperfections which you say are to be found in the Church, and I will assist you in removing them ; and if yen show me a plan of Reform which is the resters of calm deliberation, which bears upon it the masks of legislative wisdom, and of a faithful regard to the principles of the Constitution, and which has had the approbation of the people properly ascertained, and which has received the sanction of a House of Commons; not de legated in a time of high excitement ; to such a measure I will give my consideration, with the most sincere wish that I may find it consistent with the declaration of the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government that he would re's do anything which could endanger the sta bilise/ of the institutions of this country."—(Cheers.) But then lie could not persuade himself to support the Bill now before the House, or to believe that by any metamorphosis it could lie made such as their Lordships might wisely assent to, and nothing should induce him to take part in the destruction of the British Constitution. The Earl of ROSEBERY said, that after the long die. cussion that had been had upon the Bill, both before their Lordships and in the other House of Parliament, and the consideration which had been given to it by every reflect ing mind, from its first announcement to the present mo ment, he should not feel himself at liberty to occupy their Lordships further than to enter in the most concise man ner into an explanation of the views by which he was in fluenced in supporting the motion now before the House. The question was, that the Bill laid upon the table by the Noble Earl near him, should he read a second time. In voting for the affirmative, he must beg, in the outset, to state, that he had not been at first an advocate for Reform in Parliament ; and that if he had any prejudices to over. come in considering the question before them, he bad, at least, not to surmount the prejudices of an old Reformer, but rather of one who was brought to the support of the present measure from the necessity of the times— (Hear)—that lie was reconciled to it by the wisdom of the views of those by whom it had been prepared, and who seemed to him to have been called to power for the great good of the nation in those particular times --(Hear.) He had for a long time past been of opinion that either the Par liament must consent to a gradual amelioration of the re presentation of the people, or that uncontroulable circum stances would arise by which the whole question insist be brought at once under the consideration of Parliament, and a full, comprehensive, and satisfactory measure be brought forward under the controul of his Majesty's Mini sters.—(Cheers.) The opportunity fur the Legislature to proceed upon the former principle—that is, to effect a gradual improvement of the representation, had gone by. Never, perhaps, had a valuable opportunity been more completely lost than in the last Parliament.— (Hear, hear.) When, therefore, it was taken into con sideration that the neglect of that opportunity led to the overthrow of the late Government, he must say that, neither with a proper feeling of respect to the Crown, nor in justice to the people, who were all agreed upon this subject, nor with a due regard to the interests of the country, to which peace and order were the greatest requisites, would the Ministers of the Crown be justified if they had not introduced a full, comprehensive, and satisfactory measure.—(Cheers.) He had the highest respect for the Noble Duke lately at the head of his Ma jesty's Government, and, in common with the rest of the country, he had the deepest sense of gratitude for the services which the Noble Duke had rendered to his country. Yet he could not think otherwise than that the Noble Duke and his colleagues were (as had been fairly stated on another evening) the real authors of the plan of Reform now submitted to their Lordships.—(Hear, hear.) By deciding against any gradual alteration of the repre sentation of the people they bad left the Government which succeeded them no alternative but such a measure as they had now proposed.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that those who did not see the necessity at the present moment of a great measure of Reform, did not understand the great alterations which had taken place in the state of society in this country, or the wants of the people, or the means to be adopted for remedying those wants.—(Cheers.) Neither did he think that those who characterised the Reform Bill as a revolutionary measure judged correctly as to the sources from which, in these days, revolutions are likely to spring, or as to the means by which a crisis tnay be averted, and the remedies devised for the evils under which a nation may be suffering.— (Hear.) He would assure their Lordships that he did not support the present measure from a blind attachment to the Mem bers of his Majesty's Government. If the Bill should he sent into a Committee he would show their Lordships that lie was prepared to act with impartiality by giving his best consideration to its various clauses, and by voting, un influenced by party, for those improvements of which he might fully approve. He was by no means, as he had already said, a blind supporter of his Majesty's Ministers, and he felt no hesitation in stating that there were parts of the measure which lie could have wished had not ori ginally been engrafted upon it.—(llear.) There were some of those enactments which lie thought inexpedient, it would now be more injurious to withdraw than to allow them to remain. But there were others which seemed to him to he susceptible of improvement in Committee; wherefore it was, he thought, advisable to carry the Bill one stage further and say how it could be improved.— This however he must say, that if his Majesty's Ministers had not introduced a measure of which the grand outline seas the abolishing of the nomination boroughs and the im provement of the representation of the people by the ex tension of the franchise, and by a change in the mode of taking elections--including at the same time some im provement of the representation of Scotland, they would have deceived the Crown, betrayed the people, and have lost the confidence of the country which they now justly , possessed.—(Hear, hear.) If they had introduced a mea °ure which would only have been temporarily con ciliating, and ultimately productive of aggravated irri tation, their Lordships would have far less reason than they now had to give to such a measure the stamp of their approbation. —(Cheers. ) The more prominent objections to the Bill were reducible to two, in which all the others were involved. The first was, that it was fraught with danger to the Constitution ; the second, that it was totally inadequate to the purposes for which it was designed. He believed that the danger was apprehended as likely to arise from too large a democratic influence in the Legislature, to the destruction of the influence of the Aristocracy, which was essential to the preservation of the Monarchical form of Government. No doubt it was true that the Bill would ,innihilate the power of a few individuals who possess ex clusively and in themselves the power at present of sending Members into the other House. But it was not to be pretended that the Bill would not leave to those individuals ell the influence which their rank and title and personal merits gave them a just claim—(Cheers)—at the same I time that it would bring into beneficial action the influence of the great property of the country, which was now ex tinguished or overwhelmed by the influence, to diminish which was the object of the Bill.—(Hear.) If he thought that the Bill would overthrow the just influence of the landed proprietors and the hereditary aristocracy of this country, which influence was, he thought, essential to good Government under a monarchy, it never should have received the least support from him. But he believed that the aristocracy would gain as a body more of that influ ence, which was inseparable from their position in society, than they could possibly derive from the present disreput able and odious power, which it was impolitic for them to retain, as being subversive of the real ends of Parliament. It had been said, and repeatedly said by the Noble Rail who spoke last, and he thought also by the Noble Duke opposite (Lord Wellington) that the House of Com mons would be converted into an assembly of delegates, chosen in such a manner as to be under the sway of every breath of popular clamour. He would be the last man to defend any plan of such a tendency, or to main tain that such a change would be beneficial to the country. But he confessed that he did not think it likely that such a consequence would follow ; looking to the prin ciples of the Bill itself, as to the experience which their ' Lordships had of those who had hitherto beer' the repre sentatives of populous places, it was impossible to assert that the representatives of large towns had hitherto been under the dominion of those by whose votes they were elected. He did not think that those, who opposed the Bill on the ground that it would give a power of delegation, were not consistent with themselves; for be begged to ask them what were the Members of the nomination boroughs ? What were they but delegates, sent to support the opinions of their nominators? And there was this difference be tbsovdeeynof p n e o o m pl i e n , at t in h o at h b o y individua ls ion a a n b d delegation ie populous usbylt delega tion might be, the nomination by individuals was liable to this additional objection, that it was not made for the fur therance of any plan of public advantage, however absurd, but to promote the peculiar interest of the individual who possesses the nomination.—(Cheers.) Again, it was said that this measure would paralyze the influence of the Exe cutive, and deprive the Monarchy of all power. He did not see bow such a result was to be brought about. On the contrary, he thought rather that it would disembarrass the Government of the country from a power which at present disabled them from proceeding in the way in in which they might think their public duty required. —( Hear, hear.) The next general objection to the plan was, that it was destitute of necessity. He confessed be was surprised to bear that assertion made by some Noble Lords who belonged to the late Administration : whereas they must know that the necessity , was apparent from this fact, that it was impossible for them to continue in the conduct of the affairs of the nation in consequence of their inability to introduce a measure of Reform.—(Hear, hear.) It might now be admitted by those Noble Lords that the Government could not be carried on without some Reform. But they never said so before—(Cheers)_ although the Noble Duke retired from offi ce technically for the reasons assigned by the Noble Duke, but substantially, lie (Lord R.) believed, from their unwillingness or in ability to bring forward the question of Reform. But now it was admitted that some plan of Reform was indispens able, but that this was not the plan which could answer. He thought, with all deference to the Noble Lords who argued so, that, before they refused the second reading of a Bill, the principle of which was a full and comprehen sive Reform, they ought to ascertain with mere precision than they had what the system was which should be adopted in its stead. For otherwise this difficulty would arise to their Lordships' deliberations, that the public would think, and that many of their Lordships would also think, either that no system was ever intended to be introduced, or that the plan actually to be introduced would be delu sive and unsatisfactory. He would take the liberty of asking what did their Lordships mean to do if they did not permit the second reading of that Bill, which wa s founded upon principles admitted by most of their Lord ships—(No, no)—and of which the plan was defined and intelligible?—(No, no.) By going into Committee, they would give an opportunity for those alterations which might seem necessary or expedient. They might depend upon it, that whatever might be the opinions in that House, there was but one opinion throughout the country, that if the Bill were rejected, they meant either to delude the people, or to effect no real Reform in whatever they should do.- -(Hear, hear.) No one could deny their Lordships' right to negative the Bill if they should see fit to do so. No one would more warmly than he support the pi isileges and rights which they possessed, for he believed that those rights and privileges were given for the preservation of the just influence of the throne, for security of property. and for the maintenance of peace and order.—( Hear, hear.) Yet lie did feel some doubt as to whether, under the cir cumstances in which the Bill had been introduced, their Lordships were not travelling out of the course which the Constitution has assigned them, in rejecting the second reading of a Bill which had been introduced by his Ma jesty's Ministers, with the nninimous consent of the Ca binet, as a measure which they conceive to be necessary to the welfare of the country. It was to be remarked that that Cabinet was composed of some of the most influential men in the kingdom, and that several of them had hitherto been opposed to Reform, and would not have consented to the measure if the most irrefragable proof of its necessity bad not been brought before them. That measure came to their Lordships also supported by a large majority of the other House of Parliament, seconded by a unanimity amongst the people at large, such, perhaps, as no other measure had ever been received with.—(Hear, hear.) had been said on the other side, that a great change bad taken place in the sentiments of the people on this sub ject. Where was the evidence of that change? Not in the petitions certainly. Fer, by a preponderance which he did not wish to exaggerate, the majority of the peti tions laid upon the table were in favour of Reform, anti not only of the principle of the present Bill.—(Much cheering.) Nay, more, he believed that if the petitions presented on the other side were examined with greater accuracy, they would be found to be not petitions against the Bill, hut praying their Lordships to do what he also (Lord Rosebery) would beg them to do—that is, to take this important question into their most serious considera tion. He thought, therefore, that it was inexpedient—he would not say beyond their legal right, but out of their constitutional province—that is, out of the line of those duties which it was obviously the meaning of the Consti tution that this Mouse should perform—that they.should interpose and forbid a measure which came recommended by the Crown, adopted by a majority of the House of Coin moos, and supported by the people with unparalleled un animity.—(Hear.) The arguments which he had heard from the Noble Lords opposite seemed to be more generally directed against the details of the Bill than against its principles ; or, he should rather say, that their Lordships rather gave way to lamentations of the necessity of the measure, than offered proofs that the necessity did not exist, or that the remedy proposed was not adequate.— (Cheers.) He confessed that, independently of all consi derations of the constitutional propriety of their Lordships refusing to consider a Bill brought before them under such circumstances, he thought it in the highest degree inexpe dient and useless; for, if the Bill were at once rejected, or set aside in the more cautious and less offensive mode pro posed on second thought by the Noble Baron opposite (Lord Wharncliffe), he could not persuade himself but that their Lordships, however opposed to this Bill (with the principles of which so many Lords opposite agreed), would be under the necessity of considering a measure far less consonant to their feelings, and with this great deduction from the benefit to be produced by it, that it will not have the same efficacy in giving content to the people, in putting an end to agitation, and in preventing tumult, as the adop tion of the present Bill.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend (Lord Mansfield), who spoke upon the second day of the debate, with an earnestness which showed his sincerity, but not with the degree of cautious deliberation as was at other times to be remarked in his addresses, had proposed that the question should be postponed for two years. To that unreasonable suggestion his Noble Friend added a proposition no less unreasonable, that such a postponement would not suit his Majesty's Minister., because they did not desire tranquillity, but were anxious to keep up agi tation. But did his Noble Friend suppo,e that a postpone ment of two years would put an end to agitation ? (Cheers.) - It was not a little unkind that they who had endeavoured to put an end to agitation by meeting the question at once, should be taunted with wishing to keep up that agitation.—(Hear.) Their Lordships had been told by a person of grave authority, by an individual for whom (although, on some questions, he differed from him) he had the highest respect, that they ought to discharg e their duty firmly on this question. He would concur with his Noble Friend in that recommendation; but what he thought became them was, in the first place, not to reject the Bill without considering it, but to take it calmly anti fully into their deliberation ; and, as they did not entirely condemn its principles, which had been recommended by the Crown, accepted by the Commons, and approved by the people, they ought, at least, to look into its provi sions. —(Hear, hear.) Could it be their duty, first, to en tertain the proposition that the Bill be rejected, and, when that was thought to he too offensive to the body from which the Bill had come, then to put it aside by a refusal less direct, but not less effectual ? Could it be their duty thus indirectly to negative the principle, which the most influential opposers of the Bill among them stated must of necessity be adopted before long ?—(Hear, hear.) He had looked into the Bill, and he must say, that if he did not approve of all its details, he felt it to be his duty to support at least the proposition that it be taken into con sideration, as an act of civility, as one wou ld say , i n pri vate life, to the Crown and to the representatives of the people. But he would enter into the consideration of its details with impartiality and firmness, and he would sup port any alterations which to him should seem to be im provements, if they w ere so ma d e as t o b e i n accor d anc e with the views and wishes of the majority of the people. The Earl of CARNARVON—BefOre I troubled your Lordships it was my wish to have beard all the grounds on which Ministers recommend the adoption of a measure which will change the whole representative system of the country, and which I took the liberty of calling, on a former occasion, a new Constitution--(Clieers)—a term then received with some reprobation, but which no one will now, I apprehend, venture to deny. Allow me to remark, that we have yet heard no statesmanlike opening of the subject. I do not mean to say that my Noble Friend at the head of the Treasury did not make a speech replete with eloquence, and in which the great powers for which he has been distinguished through life were eminently con spicuous—(Hear)—but I mean to say, that I never knew a measure of such magnitude, not even a Turnpike Bill, laid upon the table without some statement that the state of the road was not practically good, and that the proposed remedy would remedy existing defects, and be productive of great advantages. I have listened with much patience to sundry of his Majesty's Ministers, but not one of them took the trouble to show us the practical evils of the pre sent system, or the practical benefits of the proposed change.—(Cheers.) It is not wonderful, therefore, that I should wish to have waited until the rest of the Cabinet, having seats in this House, had delivered their sentiments, that I might know whether they really had any thing to offer. I felt, however, that if I had delayed until they bad all been heard, I might not have had sufficient strength left to address your Lordships at all. Hitherto Ministers have told us that the sole point for consideration is the general question of Reform or no Reform, and not whether - the plan before us is likely to do any good ; but the Noble Earl, who has just resumed his seat, has distinctly asked our assent to this specific plan. We have now, therefore, to deliberate, according to him, whether the Bill upon the table is likely, by any modifications in the Committee, to be so perfected as to justify your Lordships, in the dis charge of your duty, in substituting this new experiment for the ancient Constitution of the country. If there be no chance that any changes will render the Bill unobjec tionable, I contend that no more bitter insult could be offered to the country, painfully, and I may say fearfully excited, than to hold out a delusive hope that by consent ing to the second reading you have adopted the main prin ciple; when it is in fact your intention so to alter the measure as to change even its principle. Nothing but disappointment and increased irritation could be the con sequence of such a proceeding. But the Noble Lord (Rosebery) tells us, also, that in resisting the second read ing of this Bill we are stepping out of our province. Why, I should like to know ? It has, indeed, been un animously recommended by a Government, the members of which never agre.al upon this subject in their lives before.—(Cheers.) By some sudden and rapid change —sudden and rapid even if it run over three months, much less over only three weeks—those who all their lives have been engaged in resisting the pregress of Reform, at once in nouns consentire onmes videntur, unless in the terms of the proverb we can of them consentire non videntur qui errant. —(Cheers and laughter.) But, what ever may been their change of opinion—whether they are Reformers or no Reformers—l must do them the justice to believe that they have been inflaenced by the most honourable motives. Of all—although with some I am not even personally acquainted—l must speak with the highest respect, of others with the utmost regard, and it is my conviction that they are animated only by a candid and patriotic, although mistaken spirit. With reference to my Noble Friend at the head of the Government, I can only say that I look upon him now, as I have looked upon him all my life, as not only possessed of the most splendid abilities, but of the noblest virtues, and of the most manly and exalted character.—(Cheers.) Some little time since, it is true a little bitterness was exhibited between us, but it arose solely from the expression of my earnest wish that an unworthy cavil about an accidental expression should not be mixed up with this great question, and the stress laid upon which would bring discredit on the Ministers themselves, as if they were catching at a straw to save them from drowning. I feel, therefore, for my Noble Friend the greatest respect; and the sincerest attachment; but upon this measure, the discussion of which has super seded all public business, I can hardly express, without using words personally offensive, my disapprobation, not only of the Bill, but of the mode in which it has been forced upon the country, and of the endeavour now to force it upon your Lordships.—(Much cheering.) The Noble Earl who has just sat down, has put the question on a footing on which I certainly was not prepared to hear it argued— as a matter of civility.—(Hear.) We are not to refuse our assent to the second reading of this Bill, on the ground that it will not be civil to the House of Commons.— (Hear, and laughter.) Ile tells ns that it has been adopted not only by the Ministers, hut by the Crown ; but give me leave to say, that that is only using two phrases to say the same thing. The King was advised by his Ministers that the outline of this Bill should be submitted to Par liament, and I cannot look at it as the act of the Crown merely, but as the act of the Crown under the advice of its responsible Ministers.—(Hear.) That the measure has been approved of by the House of Commons is a point that deserves the most calm and serious consideration ? Have we not, after a pause to reflect upon the provisions, been sitting night after night to debate it? But are we, my Lords, out of civility to the House of Commons, to delude the country by assenting to the principle of a Bill, wh. n our opinion is, that the plan cannot be safely adopted, because it must lead in the end to the subversion of our most venerable institutions.—(Year, hear.) I assure your Lordships that I approach the consideration of the Bill without fear—not that I am not aware that it is surrounded by difficulties and dangers ; but that I blieve by the discharge of our duty firmly and dis passionately we are steering, not only the most honest, but the safest course. If the people are in a state of excitement—greatly increased, I am ready to think unwillingly, by the conduct of Ministers—the re jection of the Bill by us may, to a certain degree, augment the dissatisfaction ; but the danger would he doubled and trebled if we were to display fear in our proceedings; for our cowardice would add contempt to the prevailing ill humour. I will not pretend to say that Ministers have used in this House the language of intimidation; but this I must say, that excepting the present ferment among the people, they have assigned no reason for the adoption of this measure. Whether this be the language of intimida tion towards us, or of timidity on the part of the Mini sters, I will not determine ; but this I know, that the note of fear is the only note they have sounded, but I shall be grievously mistaken if they find it echoed in this place.—(Much cheering.)—lf it he meant as the lan guage of intimidation, I shall know how to meet it ; but if it be the language of terror, I shall lament to see Mini sters, instead of meeting popular excitement with the firm ness and decision that distinguished Mr. Pitt with refer ence to the French revolution in the reign of George 111. and pausing until the frenzy has subsided, crouch ing and shrinking before it, creating the storm instead of endeavouring to avert it.—(Loud cheers.) The painful inference will then be, that under their tuition we have little to hope.—(Hear, hear.) If Ministers are deficient in firmness and courage, it will rest with your Lordships to supply the deficiency.—(Much cheering.) I address myself to the subject with perfect impartiality, because 1 have no personal interest in the result, and I do not be lieve I car. influence a single vote in the whole kingdom. I cannot bring myself to think that a measure of this de scription can ever be permanent law. I look upon it as one of the ephemeral productions of the republican and revolutionary times in which we live. We have seen systems laid down by the score for French republics, for Cisalpine and Transalpine republics, for Parthenopeian republics, and I do not know what republics besides, and philosophy was exhausted in their construction, as it may have been upon the manufacture of this clumsy Bill— (Hear)—but they have all disappeared, the products of to-day's fancy, and the victims of to-morrow's flame. Let us not adopt these rapid and sweeping changes, and least of all let us adopt them at this unseasonable period with the haste recommended not only by Ministers but in peti tions, not indeed presented, but prepared, chiding us even for the delay of a single hour. I might entertain more re spect for the Bill if I thought it would establish a constitu tion more permanent than that which it will supplant, but I do not approach it with any such feeling, and not a single argument has been used to show the practical advantage of the change. All that had been said in defence of the measure was the question, " Can any man believe it is necessary to discuss this question in the 19th century ?" Give me leave to say, that in the 19th, or in any other century, it is fit an evil should be proved before we can be called upon for a remedy.—(Hear.) Was not the year before last also in the 19th century? Yet only in the year before last some of the present approving authors of this Bill declared that they saw such a general apathy in the people on the subject of Reform—that in fact it was such a dead letter —that they almost relt inclined never to advocate the cause again.—(Cheers.) Hence it is evident that there must have been something peculiar in the last year and a half which has called for this sudden and unanimous re solution on the part of Government. Revolutionary doc trines and measures will always produce a sympathetic excitement, but some of your Lordships must remember that in this country it was not less at the period of the French revolution—l knew the Whigs of that day, and here let no man charge me with any change of opinion— I never gave a vote in the Whig opposition of that day : I supported the general measures of Mr. Pitt's government until the rupture of the peace of Amiens, when Lord Grenville made a co-operation with Mr. Fox, and I did then join that party. From that time to the present Par . liatnentary Reform has been abandoned as the watch-word of a party, and it has been left as an open question. I say this in order only to set myself rectus in curia, for I always was of opinion that some gradual Reform was what was pointed out by the Constitution. I always thought that great towns should be allowed representatives, but not without the utmost caution. I was friendly to Reform, but it was to gradual and temperate Reform, To preserve practical identity in the Constitution, I admitted that it was fit that changes, from time to time, should be made, in order to adapt representation to the progress of society. It did not, however, follow, that, like the Noble Earl, I was to take this immense step at once. He told us that e very thing in the world was liable to change but himself. --(Laughter.) I commend his courage in taking this mighty leap, but he must excuse me if I am much too doubting a man to attempt to jump with him. Many Noble Lords on the other side have said, " If you object to our Bill, what Reform do you propose ?" First, let me ask them whom do they address ? Who are we ? They, indeed, are hi s M a j es ty's vaunted Government, who so wonderfully agree upon a question on which they never could agree before—like Puff's characters in a o ell-known burlesque, " when they do agree their unanimity is wonderful."—(Cheering and laughter.) Does it follow that because we do not like to swallow their nostrums, we must be prepared with a piece of quackery of our own ?—(Cheers.) Ministers must surely feel the weakness of their own cause, and the badness of their own schem, when they ask us in compassion to make good their deficiences. Are we to be prepared on the sudden, especially when they would not let us know until the last moment what it was they intended to propose ? I give them credit for the manner in which they kept their great secret—a secret that astonished the world, and took away the breaths of the auditors, when at last it was re vealed. They kept their secret so well that I believe nobody in the Cabinet had the least notion of it, and nobody out of the Cabinet had the least comprehension of it,—(Cheers and laughter.) A skilful General, if weak, carries the war into the enemies' quarters ; but if strong, he maintains his own impregnable position. Ministers have shown their we tkness by the course they have pur sued, for they have attacked us, because, forsooth, we have not brought in a Bill to supersede the ill-digested mass upon the table. Not only do they require that the opponents of the Bill collectively should be prepared with a ne ee Constitution, but they insist that every individual re sisting Peer should be ready at an hour's warning with a substitute for that which has been the growth of ages, and the fruit of the wisdom of our forefathers. Perhaps I may be allowed an illustration of this point, that may appear familiar, but not without a striking applicability. Suppose any man were about to engage a new cook, he might ask some of the best judges of gastronomy to meet in order to decide upon the merits of the new candidate for the kitchen. When the cloth was drawn (if anything so unfashionable occurred), the master of the house would ask his guests what they thought of their dinner, and they might reply that as he had appealed to them, they must say, that excepting two plates of cottage pud ding on the side table, not a dish fit to be eaten had been sot before them—in short, that the new culinary corn. pounder was one of the worst in Europe.—(Cheers and laughter.) Would not the company think it eery sttange, if their host should immediately turn mound upon them, and say, " You have taken the liberty to find fault with my dinner, and I will now trouble you to go down into the kitchen, and try whether you can cook a better."— (Continued cheers, and laughter.) The request would seem most unreasonable, but if by any chance it was com plied with, the guests would at least have the right to say, " Before we essay our skill, the least you can do is to give us possession of the kitchen."—(Cheers and laughter from all sides-) So I may, give us possession of the situation you now hold, and if we do not dress you up a better dish than that which you have set before us, we will al. low you to call us the most incompetent pretenders that ever entered upon the cookery of legislation.—(General cheers.) One of the Noble Secretaries the other night gave us a curious reason for not going into detail into the Bill. He told us that it was too large a Bill for one de bate. I wonder it never occurred to him that it was tao large a measure for cne Bill.—( Hear, hear.) It contains materials for at least twelve different enactments, yet these are all compressed into clauses, and the debates upon them are to be shortened and hurried in proportion. One ob jection I have to it is this.—that it is a Bill to make a Constitution, and that a Constitution cannot be made by a Bill.—(Cheers.) 1 assure my Noble Friend (Earl Grey) that I am no enemy to Reform; to a moderate Resitrm, founded on knowledge and warranted by experience, I shall freely give my ready assent ; and if I am asked to what ex tent I will go, I answer, that there is nu point at which a priori I would attempt to arrest the progress of human improvement. If I did attempt, I should endeavour to do that which is beyond the power of man ; but when a change is proposed, I say, show me first that it is an im provement : when that is established, I will give a full and fair consideration.—(Cheers.) Havirg already assured my Noble Friend (E trl Grey) that I have always for hint the strongest regard and affection, I must now address my self to some expressions which fell from him on the first night of this debate. Whether he alluded to any expres sions which fell front me on former occasions in favour of gradual and progressive Reform, and whether he included me in the number of the most " diminutive nibblers at bit-by-bit ReSorm," I know not. 1 have no pretensions to be considered a Statesman, and therefore it would be no matter of surprise to me if I were ranked among the small fry of Anti-Reformers. This I can say, that there is no degree of diminutiveness that my Noble Friend can attri bute to inn that will not, in my opinion, exceed my di mensions ; but in compassion to my insignificance, and in order that we may discuss this great question upon some thing like equal terms, let me prevail upon him to shrink his greatness, if he can do so without disparagement, for a short time, and excelling even the notorious conjuror at the Haymarket, let us endeavour to put, not only one man, but two into the space of a quart bottle.— (Laughter.) When there we will argue this great ques tion of Reform, and the merits of the proposed change in our Constitution. Here I cannot pretend to raise my nerveless arm against his acknowledged power. I cannot affect to compete with him in this place in eloquence or in argument. To equal him I must in fact be the same, since " none but himself can be his parallel "—(Cheers)— but I shall at least have a better chance if for a brief space he consents to reduce himself to my insignificant dimensions, and if we proceed to moot the point on the footing only of two of the celebrated sages of Lilliput.-- (Hear. ) Nevertheless, when speaking of the high talent of my Noble Friend, I cannot but recollect with pride the glorious constellation of genius and eloquence with which he and I were contemporaries in another House of Parlia ment—a constellation exceeded in number and lustre at no period of the history of any country of the civilized worli. I can well recollect when my Noble Friend was " mighty among the mightiest" there, and with most convincing eloquence advocated the cause of Reform in Parliament. On his advancement to this House he seemed to gross , more moderate in his view and in his tone ; and in sup port of what I state, I beg to refer your Lordships to a speech which he delivered with his usual ability beneath this roof, on the 13th of June, 1810, the year before I took my seat here. He spoke of the lesson of moderation he had derived from twenty years' experience, and then proceeded as follows :—" But though I am disposed so berly and cautiously to estimate the principles of the Con stitution—though, perhaps, I do not tee in the same high colouring the extent of the evil sought to be redressed, and am more doulafnl as to the strength and certainty of the remedy recommended to be applied, still, after as se rious and dispassionate a consideration as I can give to what I believe the most important question that can em ploy your Lordships' attention, it is my conscientious opinion that much good would result from the adoption of the salutary principle of Reform gradually applied to the correction of those existing abuses, to which the progress of time must have unavoidably given birth ; taking especial care that the measures of Reform to be pursued should be marked out by the Constitution itself, and in no case exceed its wholesome limits."—(Cheers from the Opposition benches, re-echoed from the Minis terial side.) Thus, my Lords, you see that my Noble Friend in 1810 recommended you to proceed in the plan of Reform, not hastily, not by wholesale, but slowly step by step ; and he directed the keen weapon of his ridicule aeainst those who would pursue an opposite course—that very course which to-night he advocates.—(Cheers.) I leave it to him to reconcile his bit-by-hit Reform of 1810 with his sweeping measure of 1831. But so anxious was he at the former period to impress upon your Lord ships the fitness of only moderate and gradual Reform, that he made it one of the concluding topics of his speech, and urged it with peculiar emphasis. Here, then, is one of my authorities for a bit-by-bit Reform—here is the speech of my Noble Friend, in the maturity of his ex perience, and when he had seen reason to abandon the more popular, but more dangerous, doctrines of his youth. But, my Lords, I have a still higher authority. It is no disparagement to the Noble Lord to say, that the au thority to which I am about to refer is a higher autho rity, because, in the first place, it is his own ; and in ad dition to his there are the sentiments of a still greater man, to whom, 1 am sure, he would then have deferred, and to whom I am disposed to believe he will still yield his ready deference—l mean Mr. Fox. It was the opi nion of Mr. Fox that sudden changes were always most to be feared, as evils not producing the effect that was wished ; but that gradual ,and efficient changes—(Hear, hear, hear) —might be adopted in the Constitu tion, and in the operation of the Constitution, if they were adopted when a proper occasion offered—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial beuches)—and not at any other time. In speaking .of Mr. Fox's opinions, the Noble Earl uses these expressions:—" If in his political creed there was one article which he held more etedfastly than another, it was, that while a system was practically good he would always abstain from mending it by theories".— (Cheers front the Opposition, answered by cheers from the Ministerial benches)—and never, any Lords, can 1 forget his powerful observations when, in his place in Parliament, he stated his conviction of the absolute im possibility of providing for all the variety of human events by any previous speculative plans.—(Renewed cheers and counter-cheers.) " For (said he) I think that if a num ber of the wisest, ablest, and most virtuous men that ever adorned and improved human life were collected together and seated round a table, to devise a priori a Constitu tion for a State, it is my persuasion that, notwithstand ing all their ability and virtue (unfortunately for Mr. Fox' the virtue and ability of which he had experience were not such as are known to exist now)—(Hear, and a laugh)—they would not succeed in adapting a system to the purposes required ; but must necessarily leave it to be fitted by great alterations in the practice, and many deviations front the original design."—(Cheers from the Opposition.) And this opinion he was wont to illus. previously bestowed upon the plan, was never yet k .at ,u rs trite by t t i h o e ttt fa it n i i ,s il t i a a n r d lLu g t aapllt tehxeamsptinedydabnudilndninndanehorsv:tw,.tig which, supply every want, or to provide all the accommondhe to which in the subsequent occupation of it were fou d (I . " ' la te t ril °l: Bench, and " hear, hear," from Earl Gael%) p he Nob'e Eal desires it, I will read the w hole. I.4 . ° Y'..i e ri used to remark, that however fine to look at a regubeal.)r.teabie bne...(a'eustsiafnlin—s (itHies_ar.(),,lGno'ilninn,ogtoproonc,e”edfrowmiththtehemmisif the might be, no house was so commodious and so.. hear, as one which was built from time to time--gled chee rs from the Opposition benches)--piecem eJl—(l-•° % LOr the Opposition)—" and without any from the Opposition.)" Aye, 4 , piecemeal,' °beer fr o not hit by bit, but 4 , piecemeal"—(Ren ewed (Hear, hear.) While we are in the quart bottle to.ge,'`ite, the Noble Lord will not nibble at my " bit by b : on. form, but will nibble at his " piecemeal," c onfess A f te r I not see much to choose between the two expressions. ,`,l,bie having thus described the opinions of Mr. Fox, the so 0 Earl zaddeh, " To those principles of practical Re 0 0 1: fie d wisely enforced by that great Statesman, I am tle ter __ ° , b i e le to adhere." So that there is a promise, my p if performed, has, as I suppose the Noble Earl tl has now performed it, produced the measure befioirvl;uairt (Hear, hear.) All I say of er this is, that an ind t alms , so little importance as myself, if he has not arrived ,oenbe Frame degree of judgment as the Noble Lord, In Y t o o t hog Justified in doubting whether the pronaise to fulfilled'/adher principles of Mr. Fox has been completely . e est° reg,ular deslgeater, (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lords opposite who desiroc.bt, go int m this question, state that the only question note sere us is pea , whether we will adopt Reform or . u °, think that what we hare heard to-night ought 7 1 to aerially to modify that proposition. They ° us tbst go into a Committee on this Bill. They do M' t ' 4 ,', w ill they will not admit amendments to it, but tha t , tb „ l i e " 1. nut admit amendments th at will touch the princlrgeso, the Bid—that they are the principles lief r rn ble a! is rally—a Reform which they at least think v -u° ,, is efficient and extensive. How are we t° au ° ol - ,, r king call, if we are not ready to pass this Bill with° dopvn the alterations in it, if we are not ready to break an d by whole system of representation at one fell sw °° P.' e in the provisions of this short Bill? There V A : t his, t `, lr going into Committee if we are not ready 7, will, t ° going into Committee under such circumstance ; cou ntry' the result, occasion illuminations throughout , U % n d th en —(Hear,, from drive try a tW oatt , pt_ . i t s ei. l )na m i pass it, l ie u r e at i e na :r f s r . think afo i a n t t .ma h n k s ,t e o:h t ~t a u tA e fh t e ryl ev a e : i t n c o ni , sn if ,yi s s when o tde t,us i e r t ' uro i' i 'a i r i l ei P ts e,.ble°a,',,e'etirnesnmltietlesiMibasi to t hat ,1 1 5., t e d ; a d t, '1 : 5 :h er d t at, tO gee shall pass the Bill as it is; and then, when theY, fi t ri t iee e l e3 ' ) I ny sure, they will }mink that we have broken ou r F r io th en : tau that en:hlv la v n : e l,ei c a kt s i s iian o t f t m ho i; :i f n e n l i l lo o :n vi - e s ir u b o i ,, e ,l l : l t t;ti v at / ieu b ee h ; htport it. that lt they tli s d ho t e , il n d t d t e i r i i in ve k do not g ti r i e e a y t b e w n e e r fie7c ; f i r i: l e dl: ;: i.: Earl, for 1 ant folly convinced of his sinceritYl :01: lieve that there are those in every part of the c 0 l e is he support this measure, and who address the Pe4rtiatiiiy position of this measure, and who assist in suite d ie :1, delusion)-1 say, my Lords, that if I did not e'01",.; measure would involve them in great diffieul ti tress, such as have now reduced almost to sl"t i v . i estr t , emancipated people of Paris and Brussels--. 41 4 ° ,.. t t t l 'j lieve this, but thought that it could be a ben , ' ° t/,, there is no suet ifice I would not make, hardlY ca would not run, even to the extent of two t bst gratify Iliezn.—( Hear, hear.) I have been 0 1 ' 4 j hal% knew their secrets I should think as they did," U 'w,„ different opinion from that which I now preft ° ' o , o' now that this Bill has proceeded so far, sure that we have a knowledge of all their 'onip 1" Whethee the matter is a mystery or not I COO,: the 11) .,, col: but if I had heard all, I rather think I 811"Ulii „ tba e, - the opinion which I now state. I will onlY Tiere' r i f they had condescended to lay their information I'ethat Beringap proac t i l ie e d g : tes ti without n n _ d n e I a t y i anal to ask my opinion, 1 should have told the ru ,,bauldr s l was a great question, the consideration of whiel l i• u istet' ; benches)—but that, as they should lose no time i t 0° great and full of danger and peril—so they sh au ; ra ot°' time in getting information, practical local i"' ° ' d with respect to every one of these great towns °roost; ties, the representative principle of which theY O P 4 is , to change, and so to arrange the constituent b t Tim promote in the greatest degree the public inte r ' s : 0 14 , is the advice I should have given them. should say, say, " You should consider it without del3Yl not with haste, for to act with haste is rashness. :f t f think, my Lords, that Reform,• scat; the feverish ;00)•,, citernent in which the revolutions around us Ilav f ," is us, cannot be considered with that calmness ttrl ue ; 0" c " cessary. I should therefore say to them,---b ef°r l e a t :rile / I do not know whether they would have attend.e:' —" Sed motor prmstat componere guctus• oiro perhaps not—their old habits, a spirit of restlessness,. el have induced them to be deaf to my done, " to ride the whirlwind," end be U ggeStiOriSt; 100, 011[11,11CLIteirlose 00 spirit might have directed them, as indeed it see tus d by tl ;) l e storm."—(Cheers and laughter.) The Noble coiore, his colleagues seem in truth to have adopted this " Eurum ad se Zephyrumque vacant :" c on, But when they called it, they did not see° , tj l,l that they could not send it hack to its cavern Aftevolght did they reflect that when they wanted a breekl i vo ied ; oe r get a hurricane, and that when they bad fatallYiepout hurricane, and made the tempest fearfully I ' O T p 1 ears, they would not longer obey them, thong ° sSy ' e the creatures of their own connivances. t rj•r o ' were the creatures of their contr . " o 13° vi " c contrivances, 4," that they are so through their evil intention' b .O; t P te , designs, for I acquit them of all such ; but I t ' t ' O d e have acted as improvident men, and as end -1 ° 1 , 1 5 ; 61 :0i of conducting themselves with that cautious I"' which ought to have been expected from thecul 0 0 0/ o f that they have talent enough to overturn r„ s eog' Oh ! that they had but a f of few grains common firmness, of common calmness,--mY °-iategf lation is that I cannot add to this list comm, °D , If they have the temper which, notwithstallu'utes)',y u—est(iConheaests cf.rom cent declarations, I hope they do possess, I 11° P e d 00;1;i considered the situation in which they stand' ecif jc d will not render that situation more desperate st l , direct e for it is at present as unwise as it is Mi tt g, er° lb e l, should happen that you should reject the Bib , -„° ° I ;ol all the parts of it are objectionable, but be°ol°-iee'st°o' dercd as a whole, you canna go into the esa o f tbe e air any part of it with the chance of getting °h t - d iore f s urination without creating confusion all d hott lj went to the wishes of the people, vi „ l " ) b r l °l 9ss o l consent to make that examination? e t eose •V I vitae this difficulty by bringing for . 5 01 el of the question which are the most Preis, 0001' opposeabandren t i ii i e g in t ; he b erest. mustli the res y 6t uti b l will dporettehnicsel voi f ta l o t io bt ing, in one measure, of this bulk and 11 ', 'l e did general principle's of this Bill and all its IMlr e-° thiP 05 1 I would not oppose them if, instead of saYld would stand or fall by this measure, they W, °° thei r 1 • 31 ,1e1' e41 if this measure was rejected they would aPP i r r &O h 10 1 to produce one of a more cautious and be tte , nou e desl/,' kind. The Noble Marquis who amused to ' - re atlY night by his eloquent and ingenious s peech g a d 1 a „,itbe pointed my expectations. I knew his talents/0 4 0 1 ; e ee t for some time, expecting from him some e,P 0 5 0 us, ° . fle so' reasons for which the Government ca ll& i tort ye blow to alter the whole of the Constitution• 11ect teeereb from the most luminous speech I ever re e° o the )tae heard within the wall of this House---I T z e3 ,, t . v o'bY, l e l ; of the Noble Earl near me (the Earl of f most convincing reasons against the adoPt'°"t:at h e f,ar e sure ; and when time Noble Marquis told o' he 0 0 1 ' take the different parts of the speech of t i o°, l , and putting them together in a different °rue d va ei. 0 11: the best speech that lie had ever delivered, of , bea r V I jie it in favour of this Bill, I was anxiou s ~ ,s ul t. tV ej proposed to tin so, and what would be `her i! ob i e et Pl_ de wish to have my mind informed upon , 0 : / de/ o s; to th e h a a lsre,,, to keep my mind urn to conviction No ble n manner proposed by the Noble Marquis ; ment. But though the speech of the col was eloquent, it did not appear to me that ,htbetigh of i lye , part of the speech of time Noble Earl; ar'a .. ,, oo ,eut (Jo i n ,e ot e t i l n o ki i r t k . he had the power to refute every "e othe r se' s Noble Earl's speech, for some re c oldly t . ye V I , b elie tio e was half seas over—(Hear, hear)—before o v .); co o ! rous landsmen had quietly dropped d o wx .. i .eli t ege t t able moorings at St. Helen's.—(Hear.) 1 , 11 _ 5 v et °_ ed ril in e f is not the first time this Government. ",.e'ssnte,_„A (Laughter.) He proposed to embark in, i i c '` h s ti r, hark—the same frail Admiralty barge, se, u t ut tot horse"' capsized in the first expedition in whicl u i toito which seems to have been in such a co 'ltt i _ trat ierr oo , l o. 4l deemed necessary to put time wholes,elmtm ° e I , allobpleerilesulr:aiseigationls_e neotiverro as ballast to balance the vessel.---( r, hea.rwill nil. e .{, they will cling to this vessel till it sinks t s th, a , t be), 0 ,0 op and . by their very adhesion Will hasten it i t : eese i cling to it till it looks not like the fl°,Y e a d oat State—till it shows not 'the Royal Stand% for ag e ectt the homage of mankind and been p