The Sun. — London, England, 1834-06-03 00:00:00

in that opinion he was content for one to see them make their way gradually, -but surely and permanently. (Hear, hear.) He was satisfied, if the house could agree in opi tion on the present occasion, that by next year measures could be devisedby which that difficult and momentous ques tion could be arranged in a manner which would be in accord ance with the feelings of the majority of the members of that house. If this, then, were the case, he really thought hon. members ought not to require more. He totally dis agreed with the hon. member for St. Alban's (Mr. Ward), who believed that if government approved the principle, it would be better they should adopt it, and then appoint their commission, for in his (Lord J. Russell's) opinion, it would be most unadvisable to adopt such a re solution without at once acting upon it; and as long as they were not in a condition to do so at that time—as they ought not to attempt to do so in the absence of those facts and details which a commission could alone furnish—as to use his former argument, this was a mere abstract question of opinion, which the hon. proposer himself admitted could not be followed up, or in any way acted upon without an inquiry such as the one to be instituted by government, he could not conscientiously give his support to the motion, but must vote with his noble friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, satisfied that in so doing he was taking the most direct course to obtain a practical good for the people of Ireland, and a permanent settlement of a most intricate and embarrassing question. (Hear. ) Mr. STANLEY rose with several other hon. members, who, however, gave way, the calls for the ex-Secretary of the Colonies being loud and general. Amidst considerable cheering the right hon. gentleman spoke as follows :—I can assure you, Sir, and this honourable house, that there are many weighty considerations, as well of a personal as of a public nature, which make me feel most averse to entering into anything like a lengthened discussion of the important—of the embarrassing—l may say of the perilous question which has at length come under the immediate censideration of this house and of the country. It is im possible, Sir, for any man who has just quitted the service i of his Sovereign—who has within so brief a period been severed by the force of circumstances from those with whom he has so long acted—who has parted from col leagues with whom he had ever proceeded in one uniform, reciprocal spirit of kindness and good-will—colleagues, from whom, during the whole term of whose official life not one angry word have I ever heard— nor reproach nor suspicion have I ever experienced—colleagues with whom on all great principles, whether of domestic or of foreign policy, I have heartily and sincerely agreed—with whom it was equally my pleasure, as it was my duty, to act—l say, Sir, it is impossible under these circumstances to approach such a subject as this without something of emotion and something of pain ; and deeply indeed do I lament that the moment has at length arrived when to me there is no alternative in the course to be pursued—the moment when, from no feeling of unkindness, from no want of affection, from no diminution of respect, but from a paramount and unbending sense of principle and honour, I nave felt the necessity of terminating that political con nection which t is no little consolation to me to be assured wid not be allowed on either side to break in upon private friendship. (Loud cheers.) And if, Sir, I could not but feel this separation before, how much more deeply, how much mtc e keenly, must I feel it now, after the kind ex pressions which have been lavished on me since entering the house ? I did feel the time had come when his Ma jesty's ministers were about to enter into a course which I could not conscientiously approve ; and feeling I could not conscientiously approve it, to have done so would have been dishonourable to myself, and injurious to the public service (Cheers), and that there was one, and one only, alternative left open to me, which, of course, I could not for a moment hesitate to adopt. (Cheers.) The circum stances, Sir, under which I am now speaking, I am sorry to say deprive me of the power of entering into details—of going into those various transactions which preceded my final separation from my late colleagues. ( Hear, hear.) I have not yet been honoured by his Majesty with that audience which is usual on leaving office, and at which, on his Majesty's graciously accepting my resignation, I would ask him for permission to make those statements which are necessary for the vindication of my own honour, and to ex p'a n to that Parliament and that public whose undoubted right it is to know that I have not on slight grounds—that have not for trifling reasons—that I have not for insig nificant causes, abandoned that situation which my King and my country thought me competent to fill. (Cheers. ) Bat, indeed, sir, the speech of my noble friend (Lord John Kussell) has also made such a statement a work of supere rogation, and greatly do I differ from the hon. gentleman the member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume) in the estimate which he forms of the course which his Majesty's ministers have determined to pursue--greatly do I differ from his opinion when he says that there does not appear to be anything like a broad - difference of principle between the late and the present Cabinet in respect to the question of the revenues of the Irish church. A commission has been issued since I resigned the sealsof office involving principles of the most dangerous and pernicious tendency—principles inimical to the best interests of society, principles, whichin office. and which out of office—which in this house and out o this house—which in my private circle and in my publicf career—which at all times, on all occasions, under every circumstance, and in every place, I shall feel it mybounden duty—my solemn duty to oppose and to denounce, involv ing as they do wild and extravagant doctrines utterly at ra iance with the existence, and totally destructive of the whole system of church establishments ( Great cheers) — doctrines, which make the existence of the most venerated, the most ennobling, and the most useful of our many ve nerable institutions a mere matter of proportion, and which will make the support of our exemplary and pious clergy dependent on temporary and fluctuating circumstances — which will render them, in fact, the sport of fortune. ( Great cheering.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Hume) has told us, and told us truly, that we have had many pre vious commissions of inquiry—that the subject has been frequently gone into before, that measures have already been taken in order to arrive at correct principles. He states, Sir, and states truly, that every information which might aid in the remedy of abuses is now at hand ; that commis sions after commissions have sat—that evidence has been taken on evidence—and that we have ample materials on achich to act, if act we must or act we will. Sir, I differ from the proposition now before the house, because I say we have sent commission after commission, because we have enacted measure after measure, which commissions and which measures had for their object to relieve the people of Ireland from any real causes of grievance (Cheers), and to make the church what it ought to be— more effective for the purposes for which it was originally endowed—more efficient in its mode and means of administering to the religious and moral wants of the community—to render its strength more enduring its efforts more successful— its claims on the affection of the people more binding, and to rase out those blemishes which at once disgusted its friends and encouraged its ene mies. (Cheers.) But, sir, on no occasion—no not one (that reproach was left for later days) have we had a com mission to deal with or appropriate the revenues of the church, and the discussion of such a question was studi ously, carefully, but, I hope not dishonourably, avoided in. the Cabinet till the present period, when it has been forced on by circumstances over which ministers could have no control. The question is now before the house in a plain, broad, and fair way, and has been met by my noble friend with a propositien for a commission such as we never, thank God, before heard of, coupled too with a declara tion which I heard with great pain and sincere regret ; the same principle which, as I said, was always studiously avoided in the Cabinet is here broached ; the same resolu tion you are required to affirm ; but the same course of proceeding is not adopted by the Cabinet ; a line of conduct ss chalked out by the present Cabinet which was never thought of by the late one, and that is, that you are to alienate, for purposes other than the support of the Pro estant church of Ireland, the revenues and immunities bequeathed to her; and even if you admit the doctrine (that will be mooted soon) that there shall be a Protestant e l esg y m eat in every parish, you are pledged to degrade that ,clergyman—pll are pledged to torture and insult his feel ings —to ulcer ai: his condition—to mock at his church, by Levelling him to the unhonoured situation of a stipendiary servant. (Cheers.) From that principle I dissent—dissent Sir, unequivocaUy,broadly, entirely—to that principle I here declare an unalterable aversion and unmitigated hostility. I for one cannot and will net submit to see the church, the Protestant church, in this Protestant country, placed on a footing of entire equality with all ether sects and all other denominations. (Great cheering.) I hold that it is the very essence of a church establishment to furnish every member of the community in every part, parish, or dis trict—be the population thinly scattered or be it densely inhabited—with religious instruction, and, with God's blessing, we will so order things that this noble privilege shall not be invaded ( Great cheering)—that the poor and the ignorant have a right to look to the church for re l igious comfort and religious hope, and, by God's blessing, they shall do so still (Continued cheering); and that they are without payment to be allowed to attend the celebration of public worship, according to the rites and practices of a pure religion. (Cheers.) I hope it will never be my lot to see the time when the minister of the Crown shall rise ;n his place in this house to propose the clergy estimates Great cheering)—when be shall congratulate the house ...het, in consequence of the decrease of religious feeling in fifty parishes in Ireland, he will be enabled to take the sum of 5,0001. a year from the burdens of an oppressed and tax-ridden people. (Cheers.) Oh ! I know too well the pernicious, the destructive effects which will follow any attempt at appropriation ; I know what it will lead to in the present temper of the Irish Protestant mind ; I know full well in how many parishes the tide of Protestant emi gration is flowing out—how many additional incitements there are daily occurring to violence, and to the diminution of the already much-decreased amount of property in the hands of those who still cling to their church and their coun try. But say, if the principle is dangerous in Ireland, will it - be no less certainly carried in England? (Great cheers. ) Are you so safe here ? I ask you what minister can ex pert to stand in this house who will do away with the in come of a clergyman, merely because he has, from a slight population—a limited sphere of action, as in the south of Ireland—when, from the number of dissenters, the Pro testants form but a small minority ? Where is the mini ster. who will venture to say in this house that he will. not encumber the state for the religious worship of this parish, because, forsooth, the Protestant church attodauto form but a small minority? (Cheers.) Sir, once admit this principle, and what must follow ? Before you do admit it, however, pray let me ask you to stop, and just con sider what is to follow. Where will you stop ? Now answer that. Before you go on to this, let me, as a prac tical statesman, tell you that you cannot stop--that you have not a glimmering of a hope of being able to stop, if you once admit this doctrine of proportion. (Hear, hear.) If ten is to be the rule, tell me why not twenty, or forty, or fifty, or hundreds, at which I doubt not you will soon arrive. (Cheers.) The hon. and learned member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell) offered the other night to take the Protestants at one fourth ; since that time, however, he has fallen to one-tenth ; and what reason is there that he should not rise again to one-fourth? Once sanction t' .loctrine of proportion, and you will have confusion And bloodshed, and a more bitter spirit of personal and party and religious malignity than ever you have had to contend with yet. (Cheers.) In this country, where all religions are equal in the eye of the law (Ironical cheers from the Irish members),—l thank you for that cheer, and I tell you, that in the eye of the law they are equal—is it a matter of indifference to Par liament to separae the Protestant from the Catholic, so that each may pursue his own form of worship, and be identified with his own church ? Hear, hear.) May I venture to tell you that if you begin to tamper and dabble with church property, and make it appear as if nothing worth in the eye of the country, that all church property— all property derived for religious purposes, will soon be looked upon as having an equally frail and precarious ex istence ? (Cheers.) Now I tell this house plainly—l tell this house boldly—l tell it unequivocally, for I know lam speaking the truth, that if you, the guardians or supposed guardians of property, are ripe for this sort of work, the people out of doors are not ( Great cheers) • and when I tell you this, and you cannot deny or weaken it, I would fain implore you to pause before you assent to bind your selves to a principle which you cannot carry at the present time with the people's consent, and which you dare not carry without. (Cheers.) I did not think there could be found a Minister to propose such a—scheme I must call it —I do not yet think you will find a legislature to carry it ----I am not certain you yet know of a Sovereign who will give his assent to it. (Long continued cheering.) Now, honestly speaking, I consider you have gone the full length that you can or oughtto go, and most assuredly, that I will go, in reforming the abuses of the church so far as these matters are concerned. I think there are questions which have still to be minutely examined, and evils which require to be remedied ; and I for one will go to work at the proper time with no feeble hand—l mean with reference to pluralities (Cheers), nonresidence (Cheers), and the internal discipline of the church. Here purification is wanted ; in this respect you may do good— You may make the church holier in the eyes of the people ; by removing these blotches you may strengthen its supre macy over their hearts—you may strengthen it in its very foundations, but you will do no good by involving your selves in the questn of a new distribution of its revenues, alien to those purposes for which they are now liable. (Cheers.) The hon. member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume) has declared, that the principle now under consideration is precisely the same as the one involved in the 147th clause of the Irish Church Reform Bill, which was passed during the last session of Parliament. I admit that many hon. gentlemen took the same view of that clause which the hon. gentleman himself took ; but he must allow I dis tinctly declared, on the occasion I allude to, that the pro perty to be dealt with by virtue of that clause was property which did not belong to the church—which could not be long to the church—that it was a new property, raised by legislative enactment upon and from an already existing property. That I distinctly declared, as indeed did all my colleagues who spoke upon the subject. (Hear,hear. ) The house certainly did not look at it in the same light ; end finding, from subsequent circumstances, that hon. mem bers would not admit the distinction, I felt it my duty— seeing that it was considered as a question of appropriation —to press its abandonment upon the house. I withdrew that clause simply and solely because an interpretation was put upon it unfairly, as I think, similar to that which can fairly—of course to the only one which can at all be put on the resolution before the house—and having said thus much upon the subject, I do not think it neces sary to vindicate myself further. Indeed, I have al ready taken up more time—brief as it had been—than the observations of the hon. gentleman deserved. (Hear, hear.) If that clause bore the interpretation put upon it, then am I glad, indeed, it was discovered in time ; for it is a principle which, however fair and just in the eyes of the hon. gentleman who brings forward this motion (Mr. Ward)—and I give him full credit for honestly believing it to be so—it is a principle, I say, which, however easily he may assent to and follow up, I never can for one mo ment countenance. He tells us that the state has the right to regulate the distribution of Church property, therefore it is expedient to reduce that property—that is to say, be cause we have the right to superintend the fulfilment of the condition on which this property was left—the sacred con dition that it should go towards the maintenance of the Protestant church worship—which we, by the articles of the union with Ireland, are again bound to maintain—he calls upon us to exercise this right, not by fulfilling the condition to protect and enforce which the right was vested in us—not to turn it to any religious purpose whatever— not to make it amenable to .any charitable object, to any moral end—but to regulate it " in such a manner as Par liament may determine" that is, coolly put it in our own pockets, or the pockets of any other persons that we may at the moment fancy. (Cheers.) Finding that government have, in fact, adopted the resolution, I think that the moving the previous question only makes the whole matter more unpalatable to several persons. Now, my course of conduct has nothing to do with other people's—l have done nothing in concert with any persons, exeepting with those friends who retired with me from the service of his Majesty ; I have spoken to no man upon this subject ; I have advised with no man ; I care not what others do ; I shall follow that line of conduct which my own view of the proposition points out to be the most proper and desirable. But I would beg hard to be allowed to caution the house in its proceedings this night; to warn it of the consequences ; to think how startling may be the results of this night's vote ; and, above all, I would im plore honourable members to abstain from pledging them selves on this momentous question, before they know by what men, at what time, and by what means the ulterior proceedings consequent on this resolution are to be car ried. (Loud cheers.) I warn the house not rashly to play with such a question, which, if once agreed to, it will be most difficult to recede from—a question which will in volve. Ireland and this country in a state of excitement unparalleled in past years--an excitement which will not be of a passing and transient character—which will not be confined within the period of the end of this and the be ginning of the next session—which may not, will not, cannot be controlled, but which will burn for years and years, destroying and blasting all. (Loud cheers.) When I thus declare my adhesion to those princi ples upon which I entered office, which I have clung to during the period I have had the honour to be a minister of the crown, and for the maintenance of which I now retire from that seat which I have pre viously occupied, I trust the house will do me credit for the motives which have influenced and directed my conduct. (Cheers.) Sacrifices have been spoken of, but I have made no sacrifice. I have done nothing that could be con sidered a sacrifice when put in competition with the high principle for which I unequivocally and unflinchingly con tend. (Cheers.) Thus situated, if I have made sacri fices, it can only be the loss of the friendship of those with whom I have so long and so intimately acted, and the loss of whatever character for honesty I may have possessed. (Cheers.) But I feel, Sir, I am not thus placed. (Cheers. ) I feel I have done nothing to deprive me of the esteem of those whom I respect so much. Nothing to put me under that ban which a forgetfulness of what was due to myself would subject me. ( Great cheering.) Having thus spoken so far, I may be permitted to add that I strongly object to the hon. member for St. Alban's motion, but 1 coincide in-the propriety of carrying the . previous ques tion. I have now, in conclusion, to apologise to the house for the lengthened period which I have trespassed on its indulgence (Cheers), to thank hon. gentlemen for the pa tience with which they have heard me. I have been placed in a distressing situation ; I felt myself called upon to enter on this explanation, and if I have expressed myself I strongly, if I have hurt the feelings of any of my former colleagues, God knows such was not my intention. No thing could be further from my thoughts. I have the highest respect for them individually and collectively ; I regret that our views do not coincide ; I lament that what I consider the stern mandates of my duty prevent me from treading the same paths with them. The right hon. gen tleman sat down amid loud and long continued cheers. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but Mr. SPRING RICE, having caught the Speaker's eye, proceeded to state that he had listened most attentively to what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, and could not help thinking, however his admiration went of the ability and force of his address, that he had said much which certainly most materially con cerned himself, but which did not generally bear upon the motion then befo -e the house. With respect to the last observations which had fallen from the right hon. gentle man, he (Mr. Spring Rice) with great respect, considered they were totally inapplicable and unnecessary. Every one acquainted with that right hon. gentleman must be aware of the purity and uprightness of his motives, of his public virtue, and, he might be permitted to add, of his private worth. lie was assured his right hon. friend had acted from the fairest and most honourable impulses ; but then at the same time he would claim for others a like measure lof fair and candid interpretation as to their conduct. He 3lr. Stanley) would of course concede to others what he demanded for himself. If his former colleagues had thought as he did, if they considered the general princi ple of church property would be involved by the vote which they were prepared to give that evening, they would have acte4 as he had done. (Cheers.) They would have taken the position he did. (Cheers.) They had not done so, because they felt the general principle would not be en dangered by the course at present submitted to the house. There were, it was true, differences of opinion in the ca binet ; but upon what question had the right hon. gentle men split? Why upon the principle which resolved itself , to this—that if the revenues of the church of Ireland were ] ever SQ great; if they exceeded its wants, without any re- IR 'TA gard to its usefulness ; still they were bOund to continue them, although by the hypothesis they might en danger, and perhaps be productive of the most se rious and alarming . consequences. He differed from this principle. The right hon. gentleman thought that by departing from it, the church of Ireland would be de stroyed„. This conclusion he ( Mr. Spring Rice) unhesi tatingly denied. He was by birth, education, and reflection sincerely attached to the church as by law established, and he should not consent to any measure that would endanger the stability or security of the church. If it was proved the income was too much for its wants, it would be the principle of safety, and not of danger, to apply those reve nues to other and more useful purposes. For the sake, then, of the Protestant Establishment of the country ; for the security of the church to which he conscientiously ad hered; for Protestantism itself, he would take his stand against the views of the right hon. gentleman. (Cheers.) But further his right hon. friend had proceeded. He had said that he considered the cases of the churches of Eng land and Ireland to be the same; and that that which b ore against one would materially affect the other. He denied this. (Cheers.) He would contend there was no simila rity between the two churches ; they were Coto ece/o diffe rent. The right hon. gentleman had said, that if the house adopted a principle towards Ireland , they must re cognise the principle so far as the Church of England was concerned. Nothing could be more erroneous than this. The two churches were upon grounds totally opposite and distinct, and subject to different modes of legislation. In proof of this he could confidently adduce a recent case, which, legally speaking, might be considered in point. When the hon. gentleman, the member for Cambridge, brought forward his bill respecting tithes, he could not, with any hopes of success, proceed, unless it was stated in the preamble that his measure was entirely different from the one intended to apply to Ireland. (Cheers.) But, de parting from this, let them look to the Church Temporali ties Bill. In it a reduction of ten bishops was called for ; was it intended that the bench of bishops in England should be likewise reduced? Did the country witness such reduc tion ? (Cheers.) No, it did not ; and it was clearly as certainable that no parallel cases existed. Then, putting the Church of England out of the question, was it too much to ask, that if the Church of Ireland exhibited an undue and unnecessary increase 'of wealth, it should not be placed under the surveillance of Parliament ? there was exhibited a surplus, was it, again, he' would ask,' too much for the legislattire of the country to decide how that surplus was to be appropriated ?—how the extra revenue was to be applied ? He considered such a power ought to be vested in Parliament, and more particularly so, for the maintenance of the Protestant religion of the country. (Cheers.) He contended strongly, but he hoped inoffen sively, for this principle—a principle which he felt pos sessed within itself a spirit ofjustness and fairness thatcould not be successfully assailed. He would not go further on the general question, but the truth could not be concealed from the eye, that the Church of Irelandhad gained nothing by an increase of wealth. If it could be proved that in England an incumbent received 267/. a year for performing most severe duty, and that in Ireland an incumbent was paid 2001. a year more for doing comparatively nothing— sure, sure, the house would be entitled to interfere. Feeling thus, and keeping his mind perfectly open 'to any further information that might be adduced, he would vote for the previous question, being perfectly assured it would meet all that the country justly desired. Then, with re gard to the original motion. What were its limits and extents ? Why, it exhibited an absurdity upon the fair face of it. The house was called upon to decide first, and deliberate afterwards. (Cheers.) Was it in consequence of its being an Irish question, that the absurdity was at tempted ? He repudiated it, and would vote for the pre vious question, fully confident that the course he was pur suing was the best for the public good ; and that when the church was to be defended, the position was not to be taken up on indefensible grounds. (Cheers.) He would support the previous question. Mr. EWART rose amid loud cries of " Question," and " Oh, oh !" and spoke so low, that we could not clearly understand the purport of what he said. We 'understood him, however, to declare, that he could not understand why the noble lord had not comb;ned the two principles together, and taken his stand upon that ground. He re gretted the retirement of the right hon. gentleman, but he was sure the country would greatly admire the honesty which dictated the step. He must however state, that he considered the right hon. gentleman's principles more fitted for a former than the present age. The Cabinet was too Tory. He (Mr. Ewart) would wish to " unaristocratise" it, and see it placed upon a footing that would meet the fullest wishes of the nation. (Cheers. ) . Mr. LAMBERT hoped the house would permit him to s:ieak while he gave his reasons why he would support the motion of the hon. gentleman, the member for St. Albans Any member who had voted the other night, and who was then prepared to take a different view of the question, he w mid ask what had since occurred to make him change his mind ? (Cheers.) Trua it was a portion of the cabinet had resigned, but still an influential portion re mained to oppose the principle which was that night ad vocated. The question resolved itself into two material points ; first, the question of amount ; and, secondly, the question of appropriation. Let it, then, be broadly stated that parliament is pledged to appropriate—let it be placed upon the records of the house (Cheers), let it not be blinked, or given the go by to. It would confirm ever:, succeeding administration. (No, no.) Yes, he wouh contend that it would be impossible for any future admi nistration to dissent from a fair and just principle, when such a declaration met their eyes, coming as it did from the first reformed House of Commons. One question presented itself, which he could not avoid putting. Since the differences announced had taken place, a momentous declaration had been made—had appeared in the public prints—and which had not been contradicted. It was a Royal answer to an address from the bishops. Who were the responsible advisers of the crown on that occasion ? (Order, order.) He thought there should be the fullest explicitness on the present occasion. Why should not the ministry say, " We now sanction the principle of appro priation, and shall not depart from it." The time require(' a bold and straightforward principle to meet the public eye, the public wants, and the public wishes. A serious difference had taken place in the cabinet on the subject. They all knew the extent of the ability which they had lost, and he was desirous to know what they had gained? (Cheers.) Would they, hesitate to do that then, which they would be forced to concede afterwards ? Dif f iculties were pressing ; and they could only be avoided by a bold, manly, and straightforward course of action. Ile motioi, of the hon. member for St. Albans would g ive the hous e the power over the revenues of the church; a right that could not be fairly or justly disputed. Mr. O'CONNELL could not agree with the hon. gen tleman who had just sat down, that the noble lord's com mission of inquiry would give any satisfaction under what ever circumstances, and he warned Ministers against being led away by the delusion that this commission would do any thing for them. We had a commission of corporate inquiry last year ; and what good did it do ? How much nearer were we to obtaining relief from the grievance of corporate abuses ? A commission was a mere pretence—a wet blanket to stifle what the country required, and what Ministers, it they had sufficient determination and manliness, could give : he meant satisfaction to Ireland and security - to Eng land, for, unless satisfaction was afforded to Ireland, blessed be God, there could not be any security for England. (Cheers and laughter.) His object in pressing this subject on the attention of Ministers was solely with a view to give satisfaction to Ireland. He had a plan of his own for giving satisfaction in this matter, but he did not now press it on Ministers or the house, and why ?—because he wished to urge the noble lord opposite to come forward and proceed with a satisfactory plan himself. Let the noble lord do so, let Ministers adopt that course, and take Ireland out of the hands of agitators, as they termed them. (Hear, hear.) If gentlemen thought that there was no real grievance, that all alleged evils were mere poetry and the imagination of public men, it would not be hard to satisfy the demands of the Irish people • but if grievances ac tually existed, teal and substantial grievances, *alit. too much to ask for their redress? (Hear.) If Ministers were determined not to redress those grievances, if they , were resolved to continue that most degrading of all conditions, 1 in which the mass of the people were obliged to contribute to the wealth and splendour of a church from which they conscientiously dissented, and which' repaid them with in sult for their tribute—if that were the intention of minis ters, let them take a bold and manly course, and call back the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Stanley) to the situation which he had just relinquished. (Hear) The right hon. gentleman told the house his principles frankly and boldly, and said that there must be a Protestant church esta blishment in Ireland, no matter how few' the Protestant congregations and hearers--this for the sake of maintaining the purity of Protestantism ; it was therefore consistent in the right hon. gentleman to act as he did. But what be came of the consistency of the right hon. gentleman's late colleagues? (Hear.) He laughed to scorn the right hon. gentleman's doctrine, and told him that his principle had been tried in Ireland for 200 years without. effect. It commenced in blood and rapine and plunder—it was con tinued with the like consequences, and had perpetuated heart-burnings and injustice down to the present hour. The right hon. gentleman was for supporting a state religion which was not the religion of the people ; he was for maintaining the old principle, the purity, of Protestant ism ; if the right hon gentleman held fast by ancient prin ciples, why went he not back to Popery at once, and why , not give back to the Carthusians,Benedictines,Dominicans, and Franciscans that property which was originally theirs, but which the right hon. gentleman now insisted on having appropriated for the sake of the small number of Protes tants in Ireland? But nevertheless, and nothwithstanding the absurdity of his doctrine, the right hon. gentleman v , " consistent; he had gone out of office on principle, and Mi nisters had remained in office on principle ; but the right hon. gentleman differed from his late colleagues in this re spect, that he now boldly and openly asserted his principle, while they did not venture to maintain theirs. (Hear, and laughter.) The right hon. gentleman, he repeated, had asserted his principle, why did not Ministers assert theirs? (Hear.) Why, instead of publicly professing and acting on their principles, did they resort to an armed neutrality on the subject? (Hear, and a laugh.) Why talk of a commission Of inquiry, the result of which we might have half a century hence? Wby not affirm the principle which !WM they professed, or were supposed to entertain, and act upon it at once ? (Hear.) The commission was to investigate the revenues of. the Protestant church, and to inquire into how many Protestants there might be in each parish in Ireland ; not • only how many Protestants, but also to ex amine the segments into which Protestantism was divided, and ascertain how many were to be allotted to John Cal vin, and how many to Martin Liither, and what number to John Wesley ? (Hear and' laughter.) Were the commis sioners to take people's adherence to the thirty-nine articles into consideration ? Was there also to be a crusade of that kind ? (Laughter.) If any one said, " I can only sign thirty-eight of the articles," was he to be distinguished from the more completely orthodox, and were there to be thirty-eight article „men as well as thirty-nine article people ? (Hear, and laughter.) Were the commissioners to go into the numbers of the Roman Catholics ? He, for one, was content that they should ; he was willing to have that inquiry, because he believed that the Catholics would be found to be pretty much as they were. Were the commissioners - to go to the police force and count the numbers, and see that the same men should not be estimated twice—told off in Cork, and then again in another county ? Were they to examine the present state of the population, to ascertain the number of births since the last return, to investigate the obituaries, to go on canvass ing all people and looking into all subjects in this vague and interminable way ? Why, such a system of inquiry would prove a Penelope's web, there would be no end to it. (Laughter.) Fever or cholera might make a serious dif fererice in the proportion of Protestantism in a parish, and fresh inquiries would be constantly demanded. This was the unsatisfactory commission which was now offered to Ireland, instead of a full and healing measure ; and yet, even about this paltry commission, gentlemen could not agree, because it seemed to promise -something, however remote or incomplete, for that unhappy country. Oh, how unanimous you were when you were coercing Ire land ! There was then no difference in the Cabinet ; you inflicted courtsmartial upon Ireland without - hesitation or dispute ! When you were about to coerce Ireland you were perfectly unanimous, but now in the work of concilia tion you were for the first time divided! Those who had se parated themselves from Ministers on this occasion had at least acted an open and manly part ; not so those who re mained in the cabinet. With respect to them he would say, ‘lYou shrink from affirming what is or ought to be your own principle ; you offer us a nugatory and deceptive commission ; you throw this tortoise-shell over yourselves in order that you may have a chance of creeping at a. snail's pace out of - the difficulty." (Laughter.) What was the situation of Ireland in reference to the Protestant church ? Arrears of tithes were due to the Protestant clergy, and also to lay impropriators to a considerable ex tent. Were the commissioners to ascertain.the amount of tithes in every parish, or would government stand on the old valuation? In eight teat of ten parishes the valuation was complete. Were the arrears due to the clergy and lay impropriators to be first levied on the country, and then were the police and military to be sent out to collect the new land-tax ? What would be the result of all this ? He did not like to dwell on the subject. Meanwhile, how ever, we were to have a commission to ascertain something or other, when we were like to have a winter of blood and a spring of more coercion. ( Hear.) This was not a ques tion between • two sections of the Cabinet, it was a much higher question—a question of conciliation towards Ireland. That country was never more ready and willing to be con ciliated than at present. But how ? By fair words and pro mises ? No; but by acts. Give us acts and deeds, adopt a decided and satisfactory course in relation to this subject, and then you will conciliate Ireland. (Hear, hear. ) You have now a fovourable opportunity—the Irish Tithe Bill is before the house ; it contains the principle of appropriation. You were wiling to give up that. Give us a proper and satisfactory recognition of the principle. The hon. member for Donegal quoted the hon. baronet the member for Oxford University with respect to " the expansive nature of protestantism." If the observation applied to Ireland, it ought to have been " the expensive nature of protestantism." (Laughter.) What he asked for was to introduce appropriation as a clear and distinct principle of the measure before the house. He had said that the principle should be acted on in parishes where the proportion of protestants was less than one-fourth of the population. The right hon. gentleman opposite erro neously attributed to him " one-fifth" as the proportion which he had referred to. He might have said in private conversation that there was not one-tenth of the popula tion protestant in parishes with which he was acquainted —in Kerry, for instance. He asked, in the name of com mon. justice and common sense, whether under such cir cumstances the present system ought to be supported? ( Hear, hear.) That cheer said " No;" it implied that t ought not to be kept up ; why not put what appeared to be the sense of the government and the house upon record, oy acceding to the motion of the, hon. member for St. Albans, to whom both England and Ireland were indebted or bringing it forward ? The character of ministers was of importance; it was, or ought to be, precious to Ireland—that character it was their duty to maintain and elevate ; but how could they do so when they hesitated to put boldly on record their acquiescence in the principle of appropriation, thereby showing that they were worthy of their trust and true to themselves, by openly maintaining what they at present merely affected Jr pretended to think ? ( Hear.) It was in your power o make the important declaration—lreland looked to you with anxiety. You had told the Sovereign that you were ready to redress the evils of Ireland; by an overwhelming majority you had recently negatived that plan of redress to which Ireland was and would be attached, and from which it could not, be detached, unless by satisfactory concessions, such as were now demanded. It, therefore, behoved the house and the government to do justice upon the present question. When the people of Ireland read this debate, ald saw that instead of embracing the great principle of appropriation, it merely related to little personal matters, and when they saw the ministerial majority against the irofessed principle of the minority, a majority swelled by the late Secretary for the Colonies, and by others, whose support was the result of a cunning and equivocal friend ;hip, would not the people feel great disappointment and indignation, and would not they mock him to scorn if he were to give ministers his confidence? Wouldthey not say, and with apparent justice, " Our supposed friends and ad vocates are miserably deluded, or else they are deluders in supporting ministers ; they are truckling to the govern ment with private views, and endeavouring to promote their own interests at the expense of their country." Sup pose this result to be brought about, in what degree would a benefit ministers? Perhaps they might get another set of agitators in the place of the present ; they might get worse. (Laughter.) He would tell them that, and they might do worse even if they could succeed in ruining the character of men whom he now told the government they could not purchase, and whom he did not wish to suppose that ministers were weak enough to attempt to deter from their duty. (Hear, hear.) England had tried with Scot land the game she was now playing in Ireland. How often d.d the walls of that house echo with declarations of an in tention to establish firmly, and maintain unshaken, the system of episcopacy in Scotland? How often did majo rities here express their scorn at the idea of allowing the Scotch to throw off the surplice and reject the orders and regulations of the established church? But nevertheless, the ministers of that day were defeated by the good broad swords of the Scotch. For fifty years England persecuted a people which conscientiously differed from it on points of doctrine and discipline, but all the attempts to establish episcopacy in Scotland failed. Was a different result to be expected in Ireland in the present day? Was Ireland a Protestant country ? No. It was not by the govern ment calling Ireland a Protestant country, that it could be rendered so, but only by the people becoming Protes tant. Did ministers want a commission of inquiry to show the enormous majority of Catholics in Ireland? Did they want such an inquiry as to the fact of the small minority which the Protestants of that country constituted? He put it to the right hon. gentleman opposite whether he entertained any doubt on the subject ; if so, let the right hon. gentleman go to the parishes of Loughlin and Shana golden, in which he was a considerable proprietor, and see the relative numbers of Catholics and Protestants ; the eight hon. gentleman could not want any . inquiry for that purpose. It was idle to talk of a commission of inquiry. ( Hear, hear.) If you first established the principle of ap propriation, you might afterwards proceed to work out its details by means of a commission, but we wanted no preli ninary inquiry. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Stan ley) said, if you sent out a commission the Whiteboys might soon change the relative proportion of Protestants and' Catholics in certain parishes. It was possible that such a thing might happen, but he hoped and believed it was not likely. He could refer the right hon. gentleman to a county which had been desolated of its Catholic inhabi tants at a former period. Undoubtedly the prin ciple was a dreadful one, and might be mischievously exer cised both against Catholics and Protestants. No man could deprecate any thing of the kind more than him self. But it would be easy to obviate any risk of that kind if a date already passed were selected for esti mating the relative proportions of Catholics and Pro testants—the Ist of March, for instance, might b 6 the day fixed, and thus we should get over that clan= ger at least. (Hear, hear.) But was there no other evil to be dreaded ? Did not the great mischief and evil in Ireland consist in the dissensions existing between Ca tholics and Protestants ? The house had that night heard sentiments of self-gratulation expressed on the part of the Protestants at the prospect of the church being upheld in Ireland; what would be the feelings of the Catholics? See the wretched absurdity and mischief created by youi dominant church in Ireland : .the law gav e th e P ro t es t an t' a superiority in that country, and because they possessed a legal superiority, they were induced to i magine th a t th e y also possessed a physical and moral superiority. Was this fallacious idea to be encouraged? Were the people of Ire land to be set against each other for the maintenance of the principle of pure Protestantism ? (Hear, hear.) Was this gross injustice to be committed? Government and the Legislature were arrived at a period when they might do much good by proceeding boldly and actively, but the method now proposed to be adopted was a mere mockery; and could not be attended with any successful result. Gen. tlemen opposite must themselves admit that if we did not first establish the principle of appropriation the Govern. ment commission would be neither more nor less 'than a rambling proclamation to array the Protestant and Catholics in. e i a t c a h tin o g the d r is . ti ( n H et e io ar n . s ) , I n t would y p e a x r c is it h e party e p i r a :c d e s s against o n , and meetings. Then would come the daily riot, the even ing collision, and fhe midnight murder. (Hear.) It would tcalGLoe Government. r x a o e p t f m e t erermiimnuptre.tenittTh. Protestantism aerr lyhl.deaepiseei rtetep:l be diiseminating in Ireland an additional motive to excite ment—another cause of dissension. They had tried the prin ciple._ to oeehtfi see tr elrelandl3:alisdtrw abandoned—doo for 200 an o o o 4. yearseaexc itnoteive effective to fall into the arms of this country—to join the ranks of minority working out the great principles o b f the Reform Bill with energy andsincerity ; they desired so to strengthen the hands of the administration as not to allow the possi bility of parties in any quarter, either in the vicinity of that house or elsewhere, resisting the King's Government with a prospect of success. (Hear, hear.) Ireland was ready to assist you, but Ireland would not accept chaff for whole some food. She required more than words and • promises she demanded acts and deeds that did not admit of am biguity or mistake. Think not to satisfy hungry Ireland by talking of roast beef, or to assuage her thirst with a drinking- song (Laughter) ; she required something real and substantial, and would laugh to scorn all empty pro mises and professions. Ireland would despise your commis sion of inquiry which you offer, without pledging yourself to anything except to a quarrel with the late Secretary for the Colonies. (Hear, and laughter.) Nobody could more respect the sincerity, manliness, and integrity of that right hon. gentleman than himself, but at the same time he thought the right hon. gentleman's policy the very worst that could have been adopted with respect to Ireland. The right hon. gentleman had swamped the Ministry ; from the first he was its evil genius, a calamity to the Cabinet, but his honour and principles were undoubted (Hear) : high in the powers of his genius, and firm in the assertion of principle (Hear, hear), the right hon. gen tleman could lay claim to the merit of consistency. He was ready to do the right hon. gentleman full justice, but everybody was aware how much mischief he had done the government. However, the Cabinet had parted with the right hon. gentleman on good terms, and reckoned upon his future support. (Hear and laughter.) A very pathetic scene followed, worthy of a novelist's pen ; but although the right hon. gentleman seemed to weep a little at part ing with his late colleagues, he soon resumed his wonted air, and proved his rigid and unbending adherence to his . oven principles. He called upon ministers and the house to adopt the same lion part—they had tinder their protec tion every sect ; and if they began with an equitable prin ciple in Ireland, they would shortly be enabled to do more justice to England. Do this act of justice to Ireland, and you would'soon be able to reduce the pension list and re peal the Septennial Act, When gentlemen once felt the sweets and advantages of popularity, they would be led on from good to better. (A laugh.) Let them, then, begin with Ireland in this instance. He had indulged in some appearance of hilarity, but his mind sunk when he con sidered the hopeless and irreparable loss that gentlemen sitting on the ministerial bench had experienced. (Cheers and laughter.) You could not get back the right ho nourable gentleman (Mr. Stanley) if you wished—that was out of the question. You had cut the bridge be hind you, there was no retreating ; then go forward. ( Hear, hear.) You heard the cheer of Tuesday at the noble lord's announcement ; vitt would hear that cheer again if you were to embrace the principle of appropriation. ( Hear; hear.) Never was ministry so strong as you, if you would declare and work out that principle ; but never was Ministry so weak, if you stopped short or hesitated. ( Hear, hear.) If you chose you could be thus strong, and in no other quarter could there be any competition. If you now shrank from your duty, you had had your warn- ' ing, although from a quarter which you might distrust or despise. The learned gentleman proceeded to say, that if Ireland had been happily separated by 300 leagues from England, then would not the blessings of God in the for mer country have been turned into the bitterest curses ; then would not the Irish (a Catholic people) be compelled to support in splendour a Protestant church. Gentlemen talked much of what had been done for us by England since the period of the union, but he could see no trace of any solid advantage conferred upon Ireland, with the ex ception of what had been reluctantly wrung from this c o un try. We now prostrated ourselves before you, not in weakness, but in a spirit of voluntary humility and concili ation, and requested justice at your hands. It was your duty to pacify Ireland. Show your Christian and chari table, as well as just feelings, by doing so. We confessed ourselves in your power —we had no intention of revolt or resistance—we implored you for this boon—we asked you to pass the present resolution. (Hear, hear.) Still more, did you wish to strengthen the administration, support the resolution, support the friends of justice and libe rality in the Cabinet; for lie assumed that it was not yet formed, no new writs having been moved for. (" Hear," and a laugh.) You could not reclaim the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Stanley), he was irrecoverably lost ; but no one else was so pledged, not even the right hon. baronet ( Sir J. Graham), whose loss would be undoubt edly great, if he finally relinquished a department into which he had introduced mo t important reforms. He called upon gentlemen opposite to repudiate the proposi tion for the previous question, and asked how the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Stanley), with his manliness and sincerity, could assent to a vote by which he affirmed the principle of appropriation, at least in some degree? It was hardly consistent with the right hoe. gentleman's charac ter, to meet the resolution of the hon. member for St. Albans in that manner. He had trespassed on the house at considerable length, and if time allowed, would still proceed, but more in sorrow than in anger. Last week he thought he had seen a streaking of the political - horizon, with a new and cheeringlight for his unhappy country ; but he now found it to be a mere ignus fatuus—not the genial light which would shed lustre and happiness upon Ireland. ( Hear, hear.) Did we ask you to persecute or injure our Protestant fellow-countrymen? God forbid. There was not a Protestant in the house who could be more anxious to resist any such proceeding than he was. All he asked was justice. Do this, and you would have all England and Scotland, and everything valuable in Ireland with you. ( Hear, hear.) We only wished to have that incubus shaken off, which had long injured and insulted the Catho lics. We talked not of superiority for ourselves, all we asked of you was that, in the construction of the bill rela tive to the Irish established church, you Should at length do that justice to Ireland which England obtained for her self, which Scotland extorted from you, and which Ire land, through his humble voice, now implored you to grant. (Cheers. ) Mr. C. GRANT said that it was not his intention to trespass at any length upon the patience of the house, or follow in detail the speech pronounced by the eloquent gentleman who had just resumed his seat. However much he differed from that hon. and learned gentleman in general on the subject of Ireland, he always heard him with sympathy and respect when speaking of the wrongs which in former times that country had sustained. But the mis fortune was that the hon. gentleman was equally eloquent' with regard to Ireland whether discussing measures of de cided relief to that country, or complaining that beneficial measures were deficient in extent. He was at a loss to see any argument in the hon. gentleman's speech which tended to support the original resolution on satisfactory grounds : for the hon. member, although professing to be favourable to that resolution, was decidedly against a commission, notwithstanding the hon. member for St. Albans had said that his first step upon the recognition of his resolution must be with a view to the issuing of a commission. The hon. member said, " Give us acts, not words," and yet he objected to an act so decided as the creation of a commis sion. The hon. member for Wexford stated that the re solution received his support, because it would be binding on any subsequent House of Commons ; but that was an inadequate and fallacious ground of support, for not withstanding the resolution should be now agreed Ito, any future house would approach the q uestion quite as freely and in as unfettered a manner as the pre sent. (Hear, hear.) Hon. members ought to produce some other plan which they could commend, for all objec tions to his noble friend's commission applied as strongly to the resolution of the hon. member for St. Alban's, the ob ject of which was also a commission. (Hear, hear.) He desired not to see any triumph of one party over another; it was to afford reasonable satisfaction to Ireland, with a view to the continuance of that union which he hoped would long cement the interests of the two countries, that he sup ported his noble friend's motion. The hon. member for Wexford had asked what circumstances had occurred since Tuesday last to induce the house to adopt 'the proposition now made to it by his Majesty's Government. Events had occurred since then fully sufficient in themselves to justify the adoption of such a line of conduct, and if he could only advert to th e s i ng l e c i rcumstance of e able and eloquent speech which had been that night delivered by his right hon. friend the late Secretary to the Colonies, he would* take his stand upon it, and he would say that that speech alone entitled them to ask the house under different circumstances than existed, on Tuesday last, to adopt a different line of conduct. He thought that every impartial man, that everyman of com mon sense, would see that the proposed appointment of the commission rested upon intelligible grounds, and that the government was fully justified in asking for the vote it did, under circumstances completely different from those that existed on Tuesday last. The hon. member for Wexford had further said that divisions existed in the Cabinet on this important subject ; and he had surmised therefrom that this proposition was the fruit of such divisions. He (Mr. Grant) could assure that hon. member that he was completely mistaken in such a supposition, He would ven ture to assure him, and to assure the house, that there were no divisions in the Cabinet on this subject. ( Hear, hear.) He could assure the house, and he trusted that the charac ter of the members of the Cabinet, as men of honour and of honesty, at all events as men of common sense and common understanding, would be felt as fully bearing him out in the assertion, that they would not have considered themselves justified in proposing the issuing of this commission if amongst the members of the Cabinet there existed the slightest dissent upon such a vital measure, ( Hear, hear. ) The hon. and learned member for Dublin had assailed the proposition of his Majesty's government, as being one cal:ulated to get rid of the real merits of the question, and to divert the house from pronnuniog ou u iit opinion upon it. He (Mr. Grant) looked upondit n a different light; he looked upon it as that whvi erns-neatgl to to be--a plain and direct proposition by the go r!Orff •c , '")'T ?, - rsr". fr. the country of,the line of policy which it was determine to pursue. (Hear.) He would assert, in spite of ,the hon• and learned gentleman, that no man in that hous e ; thet,ne • man of common sense in the country, could mistake fqr moment what that line of policy was. He could not but think, notwithstanding all that had been said by the hon. and learned gentleman, that the warm feelings and the good sense of the Roman Catholics of Ireland would induce •hem to arrive at a different conclusion from the hon. and , learned gentleman with regard to the issuing of this cora mission, and that in spite of his denunciations they would give due credit to the government for its intentions in' bringing forward such a proposition. In that proposition he (Mr. Grant) cordially and entirely concurred.. tie firmly believed that it would constitute the most inaportaut, step that the house had ever taken for the effectual conci-, liation of Ireland, and for cementing the union•betwe en .. the two countries. Without fuhe d si etaining the house, he begged to re se p at that such a p ro n otion had hi s cordial and entire concurrence. • foundlwa t o e S u d i l r d t to i em . create v P s eeElrflE. intelligibleiLn said tthe precludedetphutbt public from t a coo t mm the hn p pe riod importance, when events were passing around them caien interest, if not apprehension, he deeply regretted that he' , could be satisfactory to his own mind, or which he feared. i as made by the hon. member for St. Alban's, distinct l y '..,. involved two principles ; the first was, that the temporal possessions of the church of Ireland exceeded the selri tua . wants of the Protestant inhabitants of that part of the env • .. takingr s i do country.m anyo much c h sucheaoTn anxiety esicourse immensetywhaz iic: ~, pire ; and, secondly, that the house had a right to apin' priate any surplus that might exist to purposes not c°n" nected with the support or maintenance of the Pr e : testant church. He (Sir R. Peel) was anxious t e , tight the battle on those grounds. (Loud cheering., He was ready to declare his opinion on the subject' He was prepared to enter upon the discussion at that moment. (Hear, hear.) He wished to state nothing. in t : tone' of triumph, nor to claim for himself any suPe rl°rl b'e over his fellow-subjects in consequence of the opinion, --.. entertained as a protestant ; but in differing from opilli e ai n ' of others, which he believed to be fallacious, he vilsh`; not in a tone of triumph, but with feelings of the deeP e t ", anxiety for the welfare of the church in Ireland, to eta '' f why he entertained the opinion that they were bound he right to the maintenance of the establishment, why . us ' maintenance of the church was essential to the religw, e motion,,, character of the country, and why the best interests of t".. people called for the maintenance of the establishuler He was then prepared to discuss the question ; h e v ' he prepared and ready to state his opinion on the subject ! in, was ready that night to state distinctly his unqualifienwer tention to uphold and maintain to the utmost of his P ° • t i would h eo e udlidd establishedcnoont smeaneit to c tho anyu assertr church. h c . ha nt ( hg C ae h t eienr unders.t h ) e 1 i ß aoc y teui rta actual u i this t d as t e t a ne e 1 a r ci a s t : i t . i a P e e that when a committee was moved for two years. a.-gn° or said that he was ready to consider any proposal°. sot; established church. It must be in the recollection of many measure which had for its object the removal of any i nb, u ben or defects that might exist in the establishment. tie ' • stated that the time was come when they must review the state of the establishment in Ireland. Bv this he for one moment never intended to assent to the proposition that any portion of the pecuniary means of the establishment might be devoted to other objects, but whether there might not be a different distribution of the funds of the establishment, with the view to the better supply' big the spiritual wants of the people. (Hear, hear.) He, as a member of the church, was ready to een gider any measure calculated to promote a more be neficial or advantageous distribution of the funds ° the church ; but he never would consent to the alielli;: , ;7 tion of any portion of them to purposes not connected 14 : h e i the church. (Hear.) He regretted that instead °f the 1 previous question having been proposed the motion of hon. member for St. Alban's had not been met with 11 -7 1 tinct negative. As it was, he had di ffi culties timewia In 1 ...... he way as to the vote he should give, for whatever co,rhe. might take it would not be satisfactory to his g raint i t he . ,:, noble lord (Althorp) had commenced with incll ' h o n,,-- previous question, and had thus precluded agont, on member from making any proposition as an ame n . 1 b e on the original motion. The question must necessarl amply the motion of the noble lord, and he (Sir IL Nell_ hos . regretted that it should be put on the motion of.s;ubted member for St. Alban's. (Hear, hear. - ) H e s i n the whether there was not a large number of -member they ninety were called upon to give;, but he was sureth at S a o acquainte.l with the proceedi t . aoors not house who did not understand the nature of the vote i... • n.ne out of every hundred persons out of the noble vote woild not be aware of the nature of the e was one 1 ,rd had called upon the house to adopt. Ther . _ in i g ht of three courses for him to adopt. Either nu trusted have absented himself altogether, and ha%eer occur, that an opportunity, which indeed might neY,_ m i g ht would arise to discuss the abstract proposition. ta' e left the have abstained from stating his opinion, and hay but with house, so as not to vote on the previous question, ....1., the intention of voting on the main question. If, how en„ the division had taken place on the main question irtirne'lj ately after the division on the previous question, he con,. not have done so. He felt, however, bound to s ay that n''' felt that absenting himself from the division was one of the: ' most unsatisfactory courses that he could have adopted' (Hear, hear.) He had occasionally done so, but he bad g s of Parliament always felt that it betrayed a weakness of decision tin' worthy of a public man. ( Hear, hear.) He was satisfied that to endeavour to escape from a difficulty by avoiding ' the performance of a duty was a most objectionable course to adopt. (Hear, hear.) If ever there was a difficultY n as e to the vote he should adopt, it was on that e.s. ton that the had not brought these di ffi culties on hiineelf" uN °ti°°nn.e con" nected with him had thrown out any suges Mile tion, and also that he could vote against the previous ques previous question should be proposed. ntleinan give a negative to the proposition of the hon. geedifficulties he might be told that by adopting this course th like the he had stated would be obviated ; but at a time acted present, he was satisfied that if he and those wbo on with him as friends of the church should ally themselves the first division with its declared and determined °PP! . nents, it would not prove satisfactory to the *aim it mf g might be told , questne" ir with his Majesty's government for the prev iou s w.. _,. it might be assumed that he did so on the groun d on .0 /21:7, some of his Majesty's ministers claimed the decis i on . t L", house, namely, by pursuing the course marked out ,t,,t i _t u r. ( Hear , hear.) If he adopted the other course, and ;of . la_ . plied a confidence in his Majesty's governrnen v , ( 0 77 0 ~ hear.) It might also be as§umed that he appre r en state of the Church of Ireland. He at once a e" ed it to . ri h e begg if he gave a vote for the previous questio asons that had appointment of a commission to make an inqui vo Y „ " . be understood that he did not do so for the re te side, for he been stated by hon. members on the o pposi even the not any at once distinctly stated that he had n t. (Loud slightest confidence in his Majesty's ne cessary governmen, is cheers.) In justice to himself it was also . t was the answer to the declaration of the noble lord that i t se 0 the, intention of his Majesty's government totoPthe-statB'°tl appointment of a commission to inquire in __ ven t i § to " the church in Ireland (Hear, hear), and P..,ared to being . supposed that by giving his vote he o... a , PE dist metl) sanction the appointment of such a commis' the appoint'' to declare that he altogether disapproved olho' ri , coulln iss r. ment of such a commission. (Hear.) distinct P re to be appointed was for a purpose involving t h e ..en , o atu . position, but merely to institute inquiries, _',, the roc; of which must be most defective. It involve" a rded• serious difficulties in which ever way it was reg ,er , bath . affected the payers of tithes as well as the recei 0 ; any 0 i Protestant and Catholic, and it did not get rlet ble I ° lll° l the evils which now existed. The result of the no :ssien o , proposition was to be the appointment of a cornn" nv oeil t inquiry, and he (Sir R. Peel) could not for a__ eitis ion conceive how the noble lord could arrive at the can , hire elte' e re that the adoption of such a course was likely to r ~. oi from any of the difficulties under which he labours nitotltlhaet, regret that we were prevented hearing some onse .. ! ht ha. in this as well as other parts of the speech of the . ,r_ l 6 a lled, baronet in consequence of the confusion in t t ; v tlie r ight arising from its crowded state.) We uuderstnlt 0 hc a . , n r hon. Bart. to state that the commission pi i - , 7 4 9: missions. He (Sir R. Peel) did notase thatdiffere foetingfr he thing to justify its being placed ou ar ) The noble lord said that l other commissions. (Ile- * - ind that there was a surp usi pointed by the noble lord would differ from th ll e o r t e h ,, er as e a c i i : thought that, if it should be 1 f el' people of Ireland. Let . th . and religious instruction ob meant by that ohservatio o noble lord explain what had come when it was necessary to (Hear, hear.) The timet e subject. (Hear, hear,) Di_d t he Parliament rhould then direc have an explanation n ° re ligious instruction—and he (Su . to noble lord mean ) :13;estion distinctly and unequivoca ll y the Peel) a s ked the Alie, right out of the possessions °f ~... claim to himse lf . Ireland to makegrants for the cl:' ? Church in . chtiren Protestant the tenets of the Roman Catholic ion h e gemination 0fr0..) If by moral and religious instrue (f i n (Loud cheeroit -°at it be devoted to the niotTael -tru meant moral and religious in' e (Lord .Alth P t to such R. p ee l) did not know that he should obJe c r oy the ea' proposition, as in point of fact it would b e . lu s ,e ith t he esta- based on the doctrines of the Church of Encrian d ' h -, 3 tension of religious instruction in connect i on , did not knoll blishment. (Hear.) He repeated that . fl - g this object jis that he je to to ion the a blessipgeoff re church ; but if the nobl4 lord ink`O ii,.4on in `r fun d s i view. His anxious wish was to cite" ~,, c hictrines . t h e . . ligious instruction in conformityl iC alo el a Te t a h n e d, ri Ll of establishing the Roman Catholic ret s.. of the t peel) to provide for its ma i n tenance out Oil Rober to, Protestant Established Church, her could be iilda ce° . .A would at once state that. he tie 0 (L v o e ud and long-eon assent to such a nrriotridnealled upon the house to evi l cheering.) The nob y sleiould be made w th reference tn o ,), sent that an inquir " wish in Ireland (Hear, I l h ere church in • ag u r.. y , they should discover - that oil and if, after the !ti that .they should cet4ider Whether o re was an ear_ 1 ;, a , different appropriation from Wha t ' obi s i‘ ought not present.HO was far 'from knowin what the , 11, - Was a t h different . g (Sit , meant y a appropriation, and he o oe, lord peel) presumed that was left for after consider:oar But alter the inquiry had bt en completA they ~.t , 5 4 ,„ have to:. proceed to inquire what was the tr i e °,..;oo,' ; '4 of the . . vantageous .course. The appointment of the : or Ow sion would not assist them tit tlia,t Tesf eetz i , . -'ftoi., /: - •1 -