The Sun. — London, England, 1834-04-22 00:00:00

people, there was a majority of dissenters over those in communion with the church of England. But this was the only instance of the dissenters having a majority over the churchmen. When, as he had already stated, the noble lord had brought in his bill, he (Sir R. Inglis) would be prepared to prove that the dissenters, both as to numbers and social condition in life, proved a very incon siderable body as compared with those who belonged to the church of England. He would not go further into the matter at present ; but he could not conclude without offering his unfeigned thanks to the noble lord, for having recognised in his intended measure the great principle that the people ought to be compelled to support a national what were they to do with the resolution proposed by the noble lord? He observed, that by the first part of it it was declared " that' it was the - opinion of this committee - , - that from and after a time to be fixed, the payment of church rates shall cease and determine." To that part ofthenoble lord's resolution he agreed (Hear, and a laugh); but to the last part, which stated that " in lieu of them his Majesty be empowered to grant out of the proceeds of the land tax a sum not exceeding 250,000 L, to be applied to the repair of ;parish churches," he was opposed. (Hear, hear.) He would therefore simply move, as an amendment, " That it is the opinion of this committee that, from and after a time to be fixed, the payment of church rates in England and Wales shall cease and determine." Mr. GISBORNE thought the feeling as to the neces sity of a church establishment for the propagation of reli gion was most erroneous. They might as well propose a national medical establishment, and oblige every one to pay for its support. Whether sick or well, all would then be called on to pay the state physician. If that was an error neous principle as regarded a medical establishment, he was prepared to show that it was not more so than that on which they now supported a national established church. (Hear.) The question before the committee now was merely one as to payment, and what they had to consider was, whether that payment was just or not? It was evi dent to every one, when the Government made a gift of the church rates to the people of Ireland, that the people of England would not be satisfied until they were similarly favoured. (Hear, hear.) That had turned out to be the case, and the only thing they had now to look to was, whe ther the measure proposed for England was similar in its effect to that which the Irish had obtained. To him (Mr. Gisborne) the proposition, as explained by the noble lord, appeared to be a mere trial of the gullibility of the people. (Hear, hear.) It was like one of those plans of finance somehow propounded by ingenious statesmen, the object of which was to make the people believe that when they did not pay money directly out of their pockets, though the same amount was raised indirectly from them, they did not pay it at all. (Hear, hear.) Now what did the dissenters complain of ? They complained that their money was taken out of their pockets to support the established church of England. Would the noble lord's plan relieve them of that payment? No. The money was to be taken out of the general bulk of taxation, to which the dissenters paid their proportion, and the consequence would be, that they would have to pay just as much towards the support of the church after this measure was adopted as now. This pro position was buta second edition of the Dissenters' Marriages Bill, which the noble lord who promoted it said was to have given satisfaction to the whole body of dissenters, but turned out unsatisfactory to all. He (Mr. G.) agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex in approving of the first part of the noble lord's resolution, which . simply declared that the payment of church rates should cease ; but he could not support the plan proposed for raising the funds which were to replace the church rates. He thought either that the church should be supported by those who used it, or funds should be raised for that purpose out of the revenues of the church itself. It was generally admitted, even by the sup porters of the church establishment, that there were several useless sinecures in it which might be abolished without impairing the sufficiency of the church itself. (Hear, hear, hear.) The Deans and Chapters, for instance, might be abolished ; and he was convinced that, however much the destruction might interfere with the festivities of the clergy, it would not affect the real object, nor im pair the service of the church establishment. From this source,ahen, an ample fund for the support of the churches might be derived. It could not be said that the revenues of the church were too small, and could not afford this burden on them. There were some thousands of clergy men in the church wholly without employment, and it was clear that the revenues must be large which would draw so many more than the necessary number of labourers to the same vineyard. '(Hear, hear.) There was another view of the subject, that showed the wealth of the church, namely, this: that for a man of average abilities the church was a better speculation than any other. (Hear.) If he ( Mr. Gsborne) had a stupid son—which, he thanked God, he had not—with whom he did - not know what he should do, he did not know how he could lay 0ut3,0001. or 4,0001. for his benefit better than in the purchase of a presentation to a church living.. (Hear, hear.) It was therefore evi dent that the revenues of the church itself were sufficient n,t only for the support of the clergy, but also for the other expenses connected with the establishment. He regretted that the noble lord had not brought forward a better pro position. He might have brought forward a measure which would have given satisfaction to all parties ; but in stead of that, he had thought proper to bring one forward which he (Mr. Gisborne) hoped would be rejected by the house, he was sure it would ever be unsatisfactory to the country. ( Hear, hear. ) Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that by the resolution moved by the noble lord it did not appear whether the 250,000/. was to be a permanent burden on the land-tax, or that it was to be subject to an annual vote of the house. Lord ALT HORP said it was to be permanent. Sir ROBERT INGLIS—Then it was to be a tax not' requiring an annual vote of the house, but was to be an actual lien upon the land. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord, be admitted, was placed in a situation of some difficulty between the hon. member for Middlesex and himself, who were as opposite and distant in their politics and opinions as they were in their countries, -the one being from the northern, the other from the southern extremity of the country. His (Sir R. Inglis's) objection to the noble lord's plan was not, however, so strong as that of the hon. member for Middlesex. He was glad to observe that the noble lord, _by the, proposition of laying this burden per manently on the land-tax, had recognised the principle that it was the paramount duty of this State—as of every other State—to make permanent provision for the maintenance of the public worship .of God. He thanked the noble lord for this admission (Hear, hear), and he did so the more readily because it was contrary to his expectation. (Hear, hear.) But when he (Sir IL Inglis) stated his approbation of that principle in the noble lord's proposi tion, he could not, but say that there his admiration ended.. For though the noble lord said that this was to be a per manent provision for the repairs of the church, he could not bind even the present House 'of Commons, and far less any future House of Commons, to continue this tax upon the land permanently for that purpose. (Hear, hear. ) Ile begged to ask the hon. member whether, in purchasing a house or landed property, any dissenter was excluded the bargain without havin g previously made a calculation of the amount of church rates to which such house or landed property , would be liable ? The question could not be answered by the hon. member in the affirmative. Well, then, he (Sir Robert Inglis) begged again to ask whether, in that case, it could be said or pretended that such individual paid the church-rates . to which such property was liable in his capacity as a dis senter ? .Assuredly it could not. The church-rates were in this supposed case paid only as an incidence on pro perty, and not because the person making the purchase was a dissenter. He ( Sir Robert Inglis) could not, then, foresee on what principle it could be maintained that the ssurchaser or holder of property had a right to be released 0 ,7, the liability of paying church rates in consequence of h i„tanging his opinions. ( Hear.) He would ask the noble lore bow many cases of successful resistance to church-rates had occurred within the last half year? From a. statement which had been made to him (Sir R. Inglis), and which he could see no reason to disbelieve, it appeared there had only be is l fifty such cases in the course of the period referred to. He would ask, then, what proportion fifty cases of successful resistance to the collection ofchurch rates bore to the 1,200 instances in which resistance had been made, but without success? It could not be pre tended that the dissenters laboured under any heavy bur den as respected church-rates in a pecuniary point of view. The amount they paid was but a mere fraction compared with the rental of the country. The estimated yearly eental of the country was 31,000,0001., while of this sum the dissenters only paid 556,0001. The great burden of the churches also tell on churchmen themselves. The amount of church-rate was 3d. per 1/. Taking the pro perty as rated, he would ask whether the dissenters paid the quarter of a farthing of the sum so raised ? The dis senters, therefore, he repeated, could not complain of the church-rates being a burden in a pecuniary point of view. It had been said that the dissenters ought not to be made xo pay church-rates, because it was centrary to their con eesiences. There could not be a more pernicious senti ' meat s than that one man's conscience should be made the Pipits of another man's rights. If any man purchased pro- ferty with certain burdens attached to it, that person had - no right pep complain of that burden. The hon. m ember for Middlesex had said that the house hd no right to compel any man tn s ad said a thing from which he de rived no benefit. (Here 3jr. Hume cried " Hear, hear," with peculiar emphasis.) The hon. member coolly and deliberately adopts the proposition as his sown, (Mr. Hume nodded assent.) He (Sir R. Ioglis) maintained the very reverse. As a case in point he would ask the hon. member, whether, as the police were appointed for nreventing the depredations of the 30,000 thieves which * tve: in London, those thieves ought alone to be made to for 'he support of the polices (Loud laughter, which gonti4ued for !tome , time.) He begged the hon. member's pardon s in putting his case he meant no personal disre spect to hire, (RenewjA laughter, ) He (Sir R. Inglis) contended that it, must ba a principle in the administratiop of-every state, that alithe members of that state ought to be made to pay for the support of every .institution from which, though only indirectly, they derived a benefit. When the bill of the noble lord should be brought into the house, he should be prepared to enter fully into the con flicting statements which had lately been made respeetipg the numbers and social condition of the dissenters. present he would content himself with saying, that he be lieved that the great majority of those persons, taking the country as a whole, who attended places of public worship, were at this moment in communion with the church of England. (Hear, hear.) When he used the terms in communion with the church of England, he meant those who were members of that church, in contradistinction from those who were members in dissenting congregations. In Lancashire the population was 1,560,000, and the total number of persons not members of the church, even including the Roman Catholics, was only 255,411. He was willing to admit that in one county, in consequence of its being a great plaCe for rnannfactures„ , wh!chle4 to at,. increase "in 'the pispiilation-lii gatvatat ratitr - t hait - th e -40.11.4 was We to provide , for the spiritual wants 9f the chur s ch. - Mr. PHILLIPS differed from his right hon. friend, the member for Oxford, with regard to the comparative num bers of churchmen and dissenters. He maintained that, in the great majority of instances, the places of worship of the dissenters were far better attended than were the churches of the establishment. It could not afford him (31r. Phillips), as he was himself a churchman, any plea- sure in making this statement other than that which must be derived from a desire thatthe truth should be known, He begged to disclaim all hostility to the church in having some time since brought forward a measure for relieving dissenters from the grievances nnder which they labour. He had done so simply from a wish to do justice to all parties. He trusted there would be such an expression of the sentiments of the house on this subject as would satisfy the country that the dissenters were no longer to be com pelled to pay for the support of a church of which they conscientiously disapproved. His right honourable friend, the member for Oxford, had said that there was no hardship in paying church rates out of property bought with that burden. His right hon. friend did not appear to have read the report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ; for if he had, he would have there seen that there were two kindS of church rates, between which a very broad dis tinction was drawn. His right hon. friend, he (Mr. Phillips) believed, had greatly underrated the cases of re sistance to the payment of church rates within the last six months. Whether this were so or not, he thought that all cause of resistance to the payment of rates ought to be encouraged. He was decidedly of opinion that it would be far better for the church herself, as well as for the dis-- senters and the country generally, if the church were sup ported by voluntary contributions - . The people did not like the idea of compulsion in religious matters. Judging from what he (Mr. Phillips) had yesterday seen, in the case of a collection for a church, he was strongly impressed with the idea, that instead of Parliament voting 950,0001. for the building of churches, the people would build as many churches as werenecessary for themselves. (Hear, hear. ) He thought, therefore, he should be acting more justly and properly in supporting the proposition of the hon. member for .Middlesex, than in voting for the motion of the noble lord ; supporting it, he would say, in the broadest accepta tion of the terms. He fully concurred with the hon. mem ber, that no man ought to -be compelled to pay for the support of that from which he derived no benefit. In sup porting the amendment, therefore, of the hon. member for Middlesex, he begged the house would not infer that he did so from any hostility to the motion of the noble lord, but solely because it was a measure far more liberal and just. Mr. WILES said, that the grievances of the dissenters were both numerous and great ; and that respectable and numerous body had now determined to use every means in their power to procure their redress. If those grievances were not speedily and satisfactorily explained, the dissen ters would withhold that cordial, and steady, and powerful support from the administration which they would other wise so cheerfully give it. The grievances of the dissen ters were a great national question, and if not satisfactorily adjusted—if'dissenters were not relieved from the payment of rates to support a church of which they conscientiously disapproved, there would be a constant and very unpleasant collision between them and those whose duty - it was to ad minister to their spiritual wants, in all future attempts to collect those rates. He wished that, in the measure of the noble lord, the principle that the people had no right-to pay for the support of that from which they derived no be -nefit, had been recognised. The numbers of the dissen ters had been greatly tmderrated . they had very rapidly increased of late years. In the principality of Wales, the entire number of dissenting places of worship, 50 years ago, was only 35 ; now the number was no less than 1,500. And taking the whole country, he (Mr. Wilks) would maintain, that the number of persons who atterided dissent ing places of worship was far, greater than that which at tended the'ehurch of England; and, therefore, to vote the yearly sum - of 250,000/. for the support of that church was most unjust.- It had been said that, in so far as the church-rates were concerned, there was no ground for com plaint on the part of dissenters, because the share of those rates which they had to .pay was very trifling. It was not the amount of the sum which dissenters had to pay in the shape of church-rates, but the principle involved, that they complained of. It was from principle that they resisted the payment of those rates. The right hon. ba ronet, the member for Oxford, was one of 'those who said that the amount of church rates which fell to the lot of dis senters to pay, was trifling ; yet the right hon. baronet was one of the small, but honourable minority, who the other night resisted the grant to Maynooth College, though the sum was quite trifling. It was, he believed, from principle solely, that the right hon. baronet and those who acted with him on the occasion, • had opposed the grant in. ques tion ; and it was precisely for the same reason and on the same ground, that the dissenters now resisted the payment of the church rates. On the rock of principle they stood firm, and nothing on earth would ever remove them from that rock. The principle involved was the same, whether the dissen ters were compelled to pay for the support of a church of which they conscientiously disapproved, or whether they were subjected to the pains of martyrdom because they would not conform to that church. The dissenters were prepared to resist, and he would venture to say they would resist, this grievance to the last. Many of the most pious and learned men in the country, and the ablest defenders of Christianity, belonged to that class who conscientiously dissented from the established church. Did the house know what the dissenters did for the support of religion ? They raised from 500,0001. to 800,0001. annually for the erec tion and repair of their own chapels, and the suppcirt of their own Ministers. But even if they did less than this ; if they were less zealous, less pious, less learned, he (Mr. Wilks) maintained that the Legislature had no right to compel them to support a church from which they con scientiously dissented.. Dissenters had ever shown their anxiety to forward the real interests of religion : several times had sums of a million or a million and a half been voted for building of necessary churches ' to which dissen ters had never offered any opposition. As we understood the hon. member, the frequenters of the church could not afford to keep it in repair ; to make up the 250,0001. pro posed would only requirels/. or 20/. from each parish. He trusted that ministers would not press the measure as it stood ; if they did, they would be persisting in a course which their best friends could not but regret, and which would be equally dissatisfactory to all parties. Mr. STANLEY said that this was at any rate the first time his Majesty's Government had been in the situation described of having proposed a measure which was equally displeasing to two parties diametrically opposed to each other in their opinions on almost every 'subject : it ap peared to him (Mr. Stanley) that it would be next to im possible to frame so peculiar a bill. He had no hesita tion in declaring that in introducing this measure, his Ma jesty's Ministers had principally in view the desire and in tention of affording to dissenters that just and liberal relief which they considered that body fairly entitled to on this occasion, and at the same time to maintain and secure for the established church that decent support which they considered to form a necessary ingredient and accompani ment of the very words " established church." (Hear, hear.) Highly as he respected in general the authority of the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, whose exten sive acquaintanee' with the dissenters gave great weight, generally speaking, to his observations - : . on these subjects, he (Mr. Stanley) would be very loath to take his declare tions' on the present occasion ‘as an index of the sentiments of the great body of the dissenters. On the contrary, the sentiments just uttered by that hon. member wholly dif fered from the opinions expressed by many influential dis senters, who denied any wish to dissever church from state, and who, it followed, did not object that there should be set aside out of the public funds a sufficient sum for the due and decent maintenance of the churches, which was precisely the meaning of having established churches. The hon. gentleman had said, no doubt very justly, that the dissenters felt the church rates as a more peculiarly offen svie grievance to them, as not being frequenters of the churches maintained by the rates. The object of the pre sent bill was to do away with many of the annoyances and grievances felt particularly by them in the collection of the rate, and very largely to reduce its total amount. The right hon. member for Oxford had objected to the measure on the ground that it would interfere with the security of the established church. So far from agreeing to this pro ' position, he (Mr. Stanley) firmly believed that the measure would turn out to be the best security of the established church against those dangers which, in the present temper of the times, it appeared liable to. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend had told him that only in " some fifty or sixty parishes had there been any successful opposition to church rates"—possibly—but his right hon. friend had, omitted to mention the very many parishes in which the Opposition had failed, for the time only. (Hear, hear.) He had omitted the consideration that in hundreds of parishes the people only waited to see what would be done for them by ministers before they set about any thing for themselves. (Hear.) He had omitted to take into cons sideration what and how general the indignation was likely to he if Parliament refused to remedy any of the grievances sq universally complained of, or to do away with any portion of the existing rates. (Hear, hear.) But even supposing the right hon. baronet to be correct in his opinion, that actual opposition would be put down, that the rates could be enforced to their uttermost farthing, and every abuse connected with the system kept Up, did the right hon. member think that such a " success" would te nd to the advantage of either the church, society at large, or religion itself ? Had he well considered the heart-burn ings, the jealousies, the recriminations, and the frequent desecrations of the church itse lf, which the collection of these rates gave rise to year after year, and which year :tiler year. 40.Wettiieued41164hUielt &:+4l4.lVlll;l44,PrePared. to sacrifice the church establishment ; far from it ; nor did he think that the great body of the people —nor, he would say, the great body of the dissenters themselves were. (Hear, hear.) He firmly believed that they wished the established church to be supported, not indeed in luxury and extravagance, but in decency and respect, and that they would readily agree to contribute their share towards all reasonable charges for such a purpose. In the proposi tion of his noble friend, there was a very large reduction in the total amount of the sum raised, and an almost entire removal of the offensive nature of the collection. He ad mitted that the amount was a matter of less consideration than the principle of the rate ; but would any one tell him that the proposed bill was not a very beneficial relief in every point of view? (Hear, hear.) His hon. friend had affirmed that the burden and vexations of the people would be augmented _by this " new tax." (Hear.) But how this could be, when instead of 566,000/., the present amount of church rates, it was only proposed to raise 250,0001., he could not conceive. To his unsophis ticated mind, it appeared a clear gain to the people, and peculiarly grateful to the dissenters, of no less a sum per annum than 310,0001. (Hear, hear.) Yet the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hume) cried out that it was a new and additionally offensive tax, a fresh grievance, and a fresh infliction on their consciences. (Hear, hear.) He had, as it was, a high opinion of that hon. member's powers of calculation, but he should look upon him indeed as, like Cassio, a great arithmetician, if he could satisfy him that although people paid only 250,000/. instead of 566,0001. they saved. nothing. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Boston had complained that the bill would relieve the' dissenters from nothing that was peculiarly offensive or grievous to them in these rates. He (Mr. Stanley) alto gether differed from this view of the question, for it ap peared to him that the tax—greatly reduced in amount. as it was--coming upon dissenters in common with every one else, as a tax upon the subject for the support of a national establishment, would come before them divested of muck of its present peculiar offensiveness to their feelings as i " dissenters." He did not see how any gentleman who voted an annual sum for the support of a Roman catholic college, who voted 25,000/., an annual sum, for a Presby terian establishment, and another sum for the Belfast in stitution—how any gentleman who voted for these grants • could get up and oppose the present bill, which was of a similar character with those he had mentioned. The pro testants of Ireland agreed very readily to contributing their quota to the national grant, as a national grant for the .support of Maynooth college, although, if the tax gatherer came round to demand specifically their quota towards the maintenance of Maynooth college, many of them would probably resist - payment on the ground that it would be against their conscience and religious principle to contribute towards the encouragement and support of any Roman Catholic establishment. He trusted that the house would not reject the bill, as it would be in curring on themselves a very great responsibility, whether the church ultimately triumphed, or whether the dissenters ultimately succeeded in attaining their generally unde fined projects—undefined lie called them, though several of their body, whom, he had heard, had expressed their wishes for the disseverance of church and state pretty. broadly. He trusted, however, that the house would do their utmost to effect a reconciliation between the' two elasses at present so opposed to each other. If 'they al lowed the amendment of the hon. member to succeed, it would be impossible for the administration, with their opi nions and views on the subject, to proceed with the mea sure. His Majesty's ministers were most desirous of doing away with all the abuses and grievances,of the system, and of ; limiting the amount : of the contribution of the state to as low a sum as was sufficient to support in decency and re spectability, that church which was the establiiheachurch of the kingdom. This measure they considered as best cal culated to'forward and secure the real interests of that church. He, as well as his colleagues, was most anxious to remove every well-founded complaint ,on. the part of - dissenters, and to conciliate with that body, and he there fore trusted that the house would pass the measure ; if they unhappily should reject it, upon them must rest the entire responsibility, for his Majesty's government had exonerated themselves from any share in it by their anxious care in framing the bill, and their strenuous efforts in aid of its success. Mr. WHITTLE HARVEY said that notwithstanding the declaration made by a distinguished member of the cabinet, that this measure had been framed with much care, and an anxious desire to remove in particular ' the real grievances of the dissenters, he (Mr. W. Harvey) felt he could not conscientiously side with ministers on the occasion. He, as well as other members, had already been under the painful necessity—though desirous of aid ing the ministers, if possible (Hear, hear), of appear ing in the lists of their opponents, from the .most unhappy course adopted by there, of bringing before the house no thing but half measures (Hear, hear) ; measures foUnded on mere petty details, and conveying no great or -praise worthy principle, instead of acting as they should in their character of a reformed administration, by framing effec tive and beneficial measures, founded on a broad, open, and liberal principle. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. secretary declared himself ready to remove every well-grounded cause of complaint on the part of the dissenters. What, then, were those complaints on the part of that disinterested, noble-minded, and generous body, to whose support, and power the present administration had hitherto mainly owed th it continuance in office, and the withdrawal of whose support would go far to shake that administration from their office? (Hear, hear.) They did not object to the amount, however exorbitant it intrinsically was,' of these rates; but they objected to them in tote on principle, as Protestant dissenters, conscientiouslydiffering from the tenets of that church which they were, in these rates, called upon to support. They were a- Protestant dissenting branch of a Protestant dissenting church, and they saw no reason why they should be called upon to contribute, towards the maintenance of another branch of religion, merely be cause the latter described itself as the established church. The friends of this established religion contended, very furiously, that the religion of the majority should be held and supported as the established religion of the cbuntry. If this were the proper sort of rule, how could they de fend their conduct towards Ireland (Hear; hear, hear), upon which country, although the very vast majority of its people were Catholics, was . thrust the Protestant esta blished religion, which the Catholics were' called upon to support ? Religion is and should be considered a personal faith—a feeling to which every man can look for consola tion, and for his peculiar view of which he should not be amenable to any human being. Every man had an altar in his own breast, on which he offered that incense to the Supreme Being, to whom he owes his, reverence, by whose hope he is inspired, and by the fear of whose displeasure he is awed. To break in upon this true faith was to make religion a Romish establishment, by imposing certain .ar bitrary articles of faith, and by enforcing an obedience to those arbitrary articles by laws which, according to their tenor, it was as criminal to break, as, to violate- any other law enacted in Parliament. The Protestant Dissenters of England were not enemies of the Episcopalian doctrines, and he was sorry to hear it said in that house, most of whose members had been educated and nurtured in the bosom of the Established Church, that that church re quired the fact of its being an Established Church, and incidents resulting from such fact, to keep it up at all ; and that without such external power it would fall a shat tered fragment to the ground. He had not thought so ill of the Church of England, as by law established. It was not the church itself which the Dissenters objected to, but to the church's unholy alliance with the state (Hear, hear, hear) : an alliance authorised nowhere in Scripture, and highly detrimental to the true interests of the church itself ; and many, of the most distinguished orna- Ments of that church had inveighed against the alliance as most improper and injurious. As to 'the bill itself, it appeared to him as' a sort of codicil of the noble lord's budget, which he thought had been despatched long ago. The noble lord; in opening his budget, had said there would be a surplus of 500,000/., which his lordship suggested should, in the present state of things, be allowed to remain untouched for contingencies, yet here his lordship was going to expend half the amount at one blow. The bill was a most unwilling one to the dissenters. His Majesty's Ministers professed a desire to be liberal to the. Protestant dissenters ; but if the dissenters looked on this proposition in any other light than as an insult to their understandings and to their best feelings, he most wrongly interpreted their good sense. If the country was to have an esta blished church, he would admit that it must be supported; otherwise it would be like a government without a re venue. The dissenters were, he believed, not prepared to go the length of saying, you shall have no established church at all ; but what they did say was, you have `a re venue nc which is more than sufficient for the proper Main tenae of that church. What declared the right hon. gentleman who had just' preceded him on this subject? He (Mr. Harvey) was particularly desirous to call atten tioni to the remark of the right hon. gentleman, because le was supposed to be a strong adherent - of the church, and anything, therefore, having reference to it that fell from him must be taken to be conclusive—to have, indeed, all the force of a canon. The right hon. gentleman then stated that Protestant dissenters ought to be called on to furnish no more for the support of the church than was ab solutely necessary. The proposition of government was to charge on the land tax the church rates, amounting to a ‘uaxter of a million a year. Thus a quarter of a million .a year was to be charged upon, the public resources, and though at 'the time this sum was demanded, they were told that they ought not to be called on to contribute more to the support of the church than was necessary, they were left completely in the dark as to what the resources of the church were. (Hear. ) He conceived it would not be denied that the proposition amounted to this; that the church rates were to be charged on the revenue ; he conceived that the land tax was' to be considered a portion of the revenue. Now surely, on the principle of the right hon. gentleman, before the proposed measure was adopted by the house they ought to be in formed what were the available resources of the church. Ile (Air. H.) could not think the right hon. gentleman was playing a devoted part to the church, when he allowed its adherents to be constantly referring to its resources with out stating their amount. He (Mr. Harvey) b elieved that if they inspected such documents as were before the house, and that were open to every hon. gentleman equally with himself; if they examined these papers, or if the re venues of the-clwreit-wera -larauglAdairly a,ild- fully- tinder the inspection of the commission which the noble lord talked of establishing; were such a security instituted, the ecde- 1 opinion, however, the reverse was also the fact in other siastical resources of the counteyeef every kind would be 1 instances. He maintained that there might be a church found to amount to not less than 5,000,000/. a year. He ( - establishment in the state, supported too by compulsory contended that he had a right to assume this was the amount, payments, and yet there might be the most perfect reli inasmuch as it appeared to be no less from the best infor- e emus freedom. (Hear,. hear.) While all contributed mation he could collect on the subject, and the noble lord • towards the support of the church establishment, it (Althorp) would not, by opening other sources of infor- could not be . fairly said that it benefitted one class mation, put them in possession of - the fact. Were alone, viz., that which belonged to the establishment, they to be told then that this church,"which was said to I but the whole community derived advantage from it. I be groaning under its wrongs, which they were told num - At the same time, he would refuse to enter into bered amongst its followers half the population of this the, sanctuary, of men's consciences; that should be country ; that this Christian Church, which had an utter left to every man's own breast. . Every man should abhorrence of abuses, whose doctrines were decidedly ini- ibe allowed the free performance of those religious ob . mical - to all worldly grandeur, whose first principle as pro- I servances and that faith which his conscience told him pounded by its ministers was, that their kingdom was not were the best. He (Lord J. Russell) would go along of this world, whose objects were what was more substan- with the dissenters in their efforts to get rid of restriction tial than those artificial distinctions that were thrown around on account of their religious faith ' so long as they had ambitious men ; were they to be told, he askede th at for an y such g rievances to g et removed, but he • could go no this church—the members and supporters of which had further. He certainly could not go the extent of the hon. their minds and lives thus dedicated to things imperish- and learned member for Colchester ; and he must express able, held such a provision to be necessary to its support? Isis regret if in going as far as he was prepared to go--if If so, .he must say, that he thought it a tolerably modest in removing grievances to the extent to which he was ready estimate. (Hear, hear.) Had, then, this christian to remove them, the dissenters would have him proceed church no basis for its support—no basis independent of its farther, would have him do still more. If he under principles on which to stand, without possessing in addi- stood the hon. and learned gentleman, he would' tion the amount in question of 250,000/. ? He would ask, not be satisfied with any principle in which an established on the other hand, by what mode the dissenters supported church was recognised. The proposition now before the their places of worship? By what mode but the voluntary house was that of setting aside a certain sum out of the contributions of those who attended them ? The honour- land-tax of England and Wales to be applied to the sup able baronet entered into a comparison to show, that, in port of the church. The funds were to be applied to the point of numbers, the diisenters were insignificantilhat keeping of the church in repair. He did not think that in point of wealth they were beneath consideration ; yet, there was in this arrangement anything connected with when he found them, barren as they were in resources, and divine worship to which dissenters could object. Where poor iri numbers, raising nearly 1,000,000/. by voluntary dissenters' places of worship were built, there were inva contributions for the support of their own places of worship, riably congregations in want of them; if the congregations what was to be thought of its being said that the were to fall off, the chapel or meeting-house would be al -250,000/. was necessary for the support of the lowed to go to decay. The subscriptions diminishing, the churcheewhat _were they to think of the argument, place of meeting would sometimes be removed to some which came to this—that unless such a sum was other part of the country. • With regard to the churches graeitedethis church, which they were told was the pure of the-establishment it ;. was very differentthey were the church, the very essence of Christianity, would crumble ancient edifices of the kingdom. The people would beneath the weight of its own difficulties ? He would be sorry to see their parish churches •: falling into ask • where was' his Majesty's 'Attorney-General? (A decay, yet such would in the majority of cases occur, laugh.) Where was his Majesty's Solicitor-General? unless some provision were made for keeping them He inquired where was the Attorney-General of England in repair. The churches in towns would probably be re (Laughter) that he was not present to take the instruc- paired out of sums that would be raised from private indi tions of his Majesty's government to go into the, Court of viduals, but in parishes, where the population was small, a King's Bench, and there exercise his authority against sufficient amount could not be obtained, and such he be those whoedaeed thus to calumniate the church? The lieved, would be the regret: of. Englishmen to see their doctrines of a church, to secure the affections of a people, public buildings perishing, that applications would probably should become matters of conduct ; but if, on the` con- at last be made to that house for votes to supply the necese trary, they were violated, the external ministerings would sary funds. The hon. member for Middlesex had offered become - mere mockeries. It was said that dissenters would to the house an argument which, on examination, would now find themselves relieved. Why, so they would be in be found to be perfectly. inconsistent. He : said that the common with all those who never paid the churcherates. measure would not satisfy the church • the hon. gentleman But, then, these rates were to be paid in the shape of a also alleged that it hadthe approval of bench of bishops, tax. He would ask, if they were to extinguish tithes as , whose proposition it might, indeed, be considered. Now it was proposed to extinguish church rates; and they found it must be apparent that if the bishops were its authors, and a substitute, and they were placed on the Consolidated if it had their approval, it was .morally impossible that it Fund, would such an arrangement not be dealing with should not satisfy the church. But the fact was, that it the resources of the country ? The church rates were as did not emanate from the bench of bishops ; there had been .much a charge on property as the tithe, itself. (Hear.) no concert—no communication with them as regarded that Only the other day he paid 14/. on account of Ins house measure. It was brought forward with the view explained in York-street for the repairs of a neighbouring "church. by his right hon. friend the Secretary for the Colonies, If he sought, to dispose of his lease to-morrow would lie viz., to do away with _the perpetual and increasing strife not be asked what were the outgoings, - what the amount and disputes, and at the same time to preserve that which of the house tax, what the- - window tax, what the poor his Majesty's government wished to preserve—the estae rates, and what the church rates? - Were not the 'church blished church. He (Lord J. Russell) and his colleagues rates then as much an incumbrance on property asmould had, of course, little reason to expect the support on this be any of the other rates or taxes that could be mentioned? occasion of the hon. member for Middlesex and others, The noble lord (Althorp) proposed to take the.incum- whose object was to destroy; but they didhope to have the brance -from off property on which it was at present, and support of those Who with themselves wished the church to _eilace it—where? Why, it was to be borne by the maintained, at the same time that they entertained the de poor ;by those who now bore all the great burdens of the' .sire to see its abuses reformed. . . . . country. A system like this was utterly. repulsive. He- Mr. C. FERGUSSON thought it extremely desirable was most anxious to impress on the Government that, that no decision should be called for until the house had however much they might think their measure would re- before it a statement of .the revenues of the established concile itself to the dissenters,- because it would occasion church, in order that it might see whether or not, for the them to be called on for 10s. in the pound, or 250,000/. maintenance of that church, it was necessary to grant some instead of 500,000/.—however much -it might be hoped fund if the present church, rates were abolished. It ap that the dissenters would say, " this is not a church rate, peered, however, that they were to have no such inquiry, because it is not so called," they would nevertheless feel and he supposed, therefore, that they were to conclude that this was a charge expressly and exclusively for the that the noble lord (Althorp) had, gone into the matter support of the church from whose doctrines and discipline and fully satisfied himself that a substitute was necessary. they conscientiously differed. He felt it to be his duty to He agreed with the hon. baronet the member for the declare this much in behalf of that body with whose feel.. ,University of Oxford that the church cess was an impost ings and opinions he might be supposed to be acquainted, upon property • and, doing so, he could not concur in the it being known that he had some connection with them.• proposition before the comniittee. They had relieved the The Government were deceiving theniselves. .It would landlords in Ireland from' the tax, and they might, if they have been far better for them to have left the matter, en- saw fit, relieve the landlords in England, but not at the tirely alone to work its way—for work its own way it as— eipeise of others. . . . ' suredly would—than to deal or dabble in these insighifi- Air. GILLON would be unworthy of being returned to cant and - paltry contrivances. The honourable gentle- that house by a Scotch constituency if he did not take the _man (Mr. Stanley) in remarking on the insignificancy of earliest opportunity of protesting against the measure as the measure, took occasion to allude to the charge against one of confiscation and robbery. He knew not what Eng him; that he waseupposed to be acting in concert with the fish members might think of it, but he could hot Conceive friends of the hon. baronet the member for Oxford {Skit that any Irish or Scotch member could by possibility sup- Inglis). He (Mr.. Harvey) must say that he had no doubt port it. The Secretary for the Colonies had said that it but if the right hon. gentleman had entered the conclave would relieve the dissenters. It might relieve the English of the hon. baronet's friends, and heard - their secret 'opi- dissenters, but how it - could relieve the Scotch or Irish nions, he would have discovered that there. was no plan dissenters he was at a loss to understand. - Again, the Whicll could have been suggested that would: better have right hon: gentleman talked of supporting the established recommended itself to them than the plan now propounded. church in decency as essential to the interest distct of religion. . in It was a God-send to them. The church-rate could not He should say there would b e much more of :decency a last more than another year -or two. They knew that. church gorged with ric hes, and revellin g in the plunder of The noble lord (Althorp) observed on the number of pe- another establishmen t, resi g nin g some of , its immen se and titions from the dissenters. He mentioned some forty or ill-gotten wealth, instead of seeking to_ impose a most pale. lordship from Leicester, Nottingham, and other places ; his iniquitous burden upon th ose alto gether without its lordship did not mention the town which he (Mr. Harvey) Mr. C. W. WYNN was willing to give his support t.o had the honour to represent ; and he appeared. to infer that the resolution, without ex p ressin g any in the country throughout was as pleased with the church- of the noble lord's pla n until he had an Opportunity of rate as it' was with the tithes, and that it was not discon- examining more into its details. Th ere were abuses in tented with either. (A laugh.) Did - this popular . admi- the. church, he was bound to- admit, and -if those abuses nistration want the dissenters to exhibit themselves in for could be removed without endangering the general fabric midable array—to become a species of union, and to march of the established church, every conscientious member of it down-Parliament-street and over the bridge? (Laughter.) was bound to exert himself in bringing about such a dee If he required some demonstration .of .hostility. to the sirable consummation. The existing powers of taxation church-rate, he might have remembered, for he knew it under the head of chureh rates he conceived were much very well, that the storm had been hushed by appeals to too unlimited, and, he was therefore willing that they should the good sense of the dissenters, to whom it had been said be fully considered' by Parliament with a view to their 1 --f' Be still ; the government are your friends; waitawhile ' being in fature confined to those purposes to which they , and bless their kindness !" • They did wait, and this night were properly referable, namely, ' the administration of they had the promised measure, and a precious measure it divine service, and the maintenance and repairing of -was. There surely never was an instance in which good churches. There were. many objections, in his opinion, to intention was so perverted. The excuse the government the fund on which the church rates were intended to be in made was a very poor one. They said, "We can'tdo more; future placed, but he would reserve his observations on why should you ride willing people to death? -Though we that point until the proper season for their discussion are your friends—though we have been in office only four arrived. To place the church expenses on the land tax years, we have had many things to effect, with a formidable was, in his opinion, to place it on a most insecure and enemy in array against us, and all we ask of you is to be varying fund. He thought, likewise, that in their zeal to patient (Laughter) ; tarry awhile, and all will be well." do away with what was called compulsory payments for Why it would have been better for the Government to come church purposes, the government had gone too far. After ferward and say, that the same principle which had been some further remarks, which the increasing impatience of applied to the Church of Ireland ought to be applied to the the house rendered totally inaudible, the right hon. gentle- Church of England (Hear, hear) ; that though they man sat down . repeating his intention of voting in support would not sanction any measure to dissolve the connection of the resolution. . between church and state, yet they were of opinion that Mr. ROBINSON contended that the complaints of the the church, richly endowed as it was, ought, out of its own Protestant dissenters would not be removed by the propo honour, to support itself. (Hear, hear.) If such a proposition of the noble lord, while It would have the effect of sition had been made this night in place of the one they giving cause of complaint to the great body of the country had heard, he was quite sure that it would have secured by imposing upon them, in an indirect way he admitted, an the affections of the dissenters: - Government might have entirely new tax. (Cries of " No, no.") He would main had to oppose themselves to the resistance of another - taro it would impose a new tax, because its 'effect would be party, but they would have found it quite sufficient in that to eat up a quarter of a million of those available resources case to throw themselves on the good sense and good feel- to which the whole country was looking for relief from ings of the people. With perfect confidence they might taxation. For his part, while he was decidedly of opinion have relied on the—he would not say numerical—force of that an established church was necessary, and while-pre the dissenters, but that moral power rather, which was ex: pared on all occasions to uphold it, he was ready to relieve erted' so successfully during the memorable struggle for all his dissenting brethren from the support of an esta ' that great measure through which the present Ministry blishment in which they did not concur. - The effect of obtained power, and from which the dissenters all expected the noble lord's proposition appeared to him to be neither great benefits. (Hear.) Suppose the Government had more nor less than to relieve the landed gentry of the .found a power out of the house too mighty for them, had country by placing on the community at large a new tax of office' become so attractive to them that they could not 25Q,0001. Of one thing he could assure the noble lord, make up their minds to leave it? If this was not' the case, and that was that his plan would not prove satisfactory why did they not act in a straightforward and intelligent either to the dissenters or the public at l ar g e ; and o f the way, that the people could understand ? (Hear.) Why truth of this assertion he ventured to predict the house did they not withhold all speculations till the public feeling would soon have ample proof. and the state of parties enabled them to perfect a measure? Sir M. RIDLEY, as a friend to the established church, As it was, they had been constantly relaxing everything was ready to vote for the proposition of his noble friend, as and establishing nothing—exciting every species of hope being a plan most congenial to the best interests of that and confirming every species of dissatisfaction. (Hear. ) church at the present moment. It might not prove in the Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he felt it incumbent on fullest sense satisfactory to the dissenters„ but he thought him to declare his opinions in opposition to those of the the house ought to recollect that there were other interests hon. and learned' member for Colchester (Mr. Harvey), besides those of the dissenters to be considered and legis and to thelion. member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume). They lated for. , said it would give them pleasure, if, instead of opposing the M r. WALLACE ( who s p o k e amid loud cries of " Ques measure brought forward by his Majestey's government, tion") felt called upon as the representative of a Scottish they could have given it their support, which they might borough to condemn the proposition of the noble lord as have been able to do had it been founded on some broad an indirect and insidious attack on the' established religion principle. There were, no doubt, some measures on of his country. The people of Scotland were quite ready which the hon. member for Colchester, and the members to pay for the support and' maintenance of their religion, s i i n ich tb c e ir in cu a m on st e a r n tb ce e s, n h ob e i c e on lo t r e d nd a ed p , r h opo ad a n it o io r o ig , ht if j o f . h R i s o a ll a l e a l j l e; Majesty's should v b e e n: v en al e i t n i t o 'might g i o e a n a g d r o e u e r ; if y et e h e did c L e n r ol d t a o nd b , e u t n a d x e e r d hiss t a t h e o t n h .e friendreason w we h re y t o h o e nt h in o u n and ai . ly learned disappointed gentleman a t and the prod. adopted, would Mr. BA iN do. E s ( wbo . was ce ceedings of government it was this : there wasa difference of cries of " Q ues ti on ") expressed his ul a be ibe from the l i ief l tbattbep loud ropo. principle between them. The wish of the latter was to sition of the noble lord would prove anything but gratify preserve and reform ; it never would be their object to de- ing to a very large portion of the community, and, More sci onceoti r a rgoeec•dh.a at cho T nah h te ; er.a h itf o ne n ste. . b de, i m i id o e nep m oi nd b t Middlesex ii e todb r nin f sfl o ok r totf(bitiishsgeau pqi seueoe at i stated t a e i In d p h l i ys affect- differ- theover, dissenters.i t would I tb was . as regardedbrou brought as t f o m r i o v s a t r d evidently unsatisfactory i. it b b by a w vi e e r w e s, pr b e ut ai d e e d - v.,uidesgveeoff it ; -it o r u e l l a ief la t v o e th q a u t it c e ia a ss co ; he 'could for such a change, -he would at once brin ph g leis forward a prepared j Lord ALTHORP rose to repi n y bt . ruat;Y H aes e ff c fear o e m t.as meneed by sure for the separation of the church from the state He observing, that as one of the main objects he had in view in (Lord J. Russell) acted on a totally different opinion. He bringing forward his propositien was to give satisfaction to was of opinion that the church was conducive to the pro- the dissenters, he . was somewhat surprised at finding the motion of morality, to the maintenance of good order, and way in which his propositions had been received by ;those to the advancemeot of civilization ; and, moreover, that the who were understood to represent the interest of that class doctrine and discipline of the church of England were con- in the house. It had been, received as though its effect sonant with the feelings of the people of this country. would be to give no relief whatever, in point of principle, • In consenting, therefore, to a measure affecting church- to the dissenters ; but did the house recollect thatithere rates, he consented to it on a different principle from that was even at the present moment one class of the dissen of the hon. member for Middlesex and the • hon. and ters who ever acted on the very principle on which the learned member for Colchester, who would prepare the measure was based. The Quakers, who would not con way for the abolition of the church establishment. -Ho tribute ,to any military expenditure, never refused when (Lord John Russell), by removing the grievances in con- the army was raised to .supply their share of its expense, by nection with th e chu rc h, desired to maintain the establish- contributing in proportion to the general taxation of tho ment, which, when adequately reformed, as he trusted it country. It was said that his plan would add to the tax would be before many years passed over, would , he be - ation of the co untr y , but he denied the assertion in tofu. licved, be conducive to the general Welfare "of the state. It would certainly depriVe Government of the' power of The hon. and learned member for -Colchester stated it as remitting taxation to the extent of 250,000/., but, on the his opinion, that if there was a church establishment, there other' hand, the abolition of church rates would reduce must be certain doctrines laid down to which members of the existing taxation by a sum of 560,000/. The ob the state should conform. This was in effect saying that, jection raised to his plan by the Scotch representatives in the opinion of the hon. and. learned member for Col- struck him, he must say, as much uncalled-for and ill - _there could no t b e a church establishment without- timed.. He really thought that when the .gentlemen f rom _ intolerance. Certeiney_sucleevaaelK_Case• with e thtchurch that part of the country complained ottbe _pipe es . tending of Rome in former ti m e s . In his (Lord John Russell's) to make their constituent's contribute to the crectiofi and 1' - a kIUI '''B 7,T0 CT :1. - W l'l aITTQ 1' - T, . repairing of theatlinrches, _they ought to rieoebt,,T: frequently considerable, _smut_smutliad been voted from ; eneral revenues of the country for the interests 00,,i church of Scotland. (.Hear.) He was ready'to re ~i , e s t mg r o o b y e irtn4 oft thetiiie e n . length. established sthta.b iisilllme e c mi h i t u u; r s c t h . p all the grievances of which the dissenters could reasenau .1 complain,. but.. he was not ready to _go__ to the extenart t' , destroying member of that church ; he had always been a sin 1 e ., , : i of view, he meant'in a political point, he shouldhroegr.e, it any injury.were inflicted on .the church. ' He t 11 oi merely in a religious point of vietibhuet i s n heu a dildffreerfnettp' l'ilj essential to the existence of that church that places worship should be provided for the celebration and, though he was quite aware that he left to .great cie sv ' 0..1 rofHeses was not P t r o e . P b e e .. a , private and voluntary contributions to effect, still he round' maintain the principle of his motion. Upon these p' ° t he his Majesty's government had authorised hirn to brmg ors it question before the house. He hoped that out of __ ° ent gis would not be received by the great body of the this in the mode in which it had been received in th' s " ta iolY and, hoping that this would be the case, he ce, r o t he should persevere in his motion. With respect i : o ftlie amendment which had been mentioned in the sPe ec ee 0 3 hon. member for Worcester that hon. member, if : it ifor I not mistaken him, had said that he was ready the motion, but only on the chance of his beine ro ot ifind some substitute afterwards. This was not theegi.o„el on which he brought forward this question ; aed I , ' l o tt , that the hon. member would not in the first instancebeieg against the resolution With a view of a substituttee 0, brought forward, but he trusted he would s uppor t t r , l 3tit ete tion in the first Instance and bring forward co ' n o o f I that might suggest itself ' to him during the progrrecospeY measure. If the hon. member should bring I ° ' it ols tnioonusoef of f he substitute, and be able to persuade the house that ti ler the better measure, he couldthe hou. tot 1 only assure of its rite I that he for one would be ready to adopt it. l o rd la Mr. HUME rose in explanation._: The noble mit 11 Commons church, t wheno the right hon. Secretary for the Colonial DePartnii each led the house to suppose that he had advocated the ti e o ch thing. All he had said was that it would rot be" - or 0 , to - t , port buildings whilst there w - funds be Ole were ample, , he the church itself which might be so employe°. `l„ s t t' He only asked the house to wait until t. knew w, re 1.. • n . ht h e ~,,, funds were, and then to appropriate what Oh". I' quired. It- would have been better if the moti °D ° ,ltbe hon. member for Kirkcudbright had been canted vote ianwafyietthehepohbalide :0:en:Al:O.: motion. postponed. If' the house rejected hi'atte.O. Hums) amendment, he should move a further dedtos went that the motion of the noble Lord be s ° l ' 6' ~,r Pr future day. - ow - .D Mr. STANLEY said, that since the licm. me If f e , Middlesex had charged his noble friend and lih rist' OP' misrepresenting him, he would confeis that the 1 0 t he' v her had said that he did not, at present, advoea;, lic'l" tire destruction of the church. (Hear; hear.) e f e erl i '' member had said that he did not believe that th t _ tgeg i j of the country went, at resent, to such an ex ha v„, b oiastu e st a : r_ rai . t.til l eitadtt ß nhho u iatst t gotai:tv,eitil views same funds edi otfhu t apt i n m hoen e a.ne t t h sht a e ienb h co o jusra n bhj . ee -ride:lf:li:: r, o e rie r t ,.. ° ,i '' be s iar a. ot b tr i : l6 , e., :irih. t 5l t i, ' what were his inclinations, should he be able t° llidal er e , views into effect. When the lion. mernber te r i, seet`,se ample for all purposes, he begged to remind hi ll ',jiedl a whole income or revenue of the church were etin,"" VIP for wo tu t h d e oolv present v ead m m o l m o e t n h t. e that the house mightunderstand year to each clergyman. • ~,,t0 , ~.., ql.l. - jet Mr. HUME .had only said that these were 0 .,`" la o 'lo what e , I' duty oil sh(Hoeualdr'feaenitlitahliasugdirtuli olei7:01$: if his amendment should be rejected. (`` ''''' .e ' , ' , Ar cries of '' Question, question.") He s hould 01° ` ii ;to ' t ie it appearsto the committee inexpedient to ta-l' b e i i, r evl t il sideration any proposition for charging the l''_ ota bl , ? t yt with the maintenance of the edifices of toe ~,,,-„ to fey church, until it was shown that the funds beloneepo' church were not equal to meet these and oth er its support." .' The committee then divided— 06 For the motion . ............................. ~ 43 For the amendment ........................ " _iiii i. 4 Majority ..... . ....................... .-- -- ,5,00 '' ile t During our absence from the gallery a which sca:4 place on Mr. Hume's second amendment, " 0 0 put ; and, after a further debate, ' a foin at Mr. WILKS moved that the committee dot. s „ oa ie the chai r t o m r a th ri e re m po o r ti t o p o ro . gr ... e . ......... ..................... . t . .. ~ ql ; 3 • °6 ~ The .committee divided— '. .Against it ....................... .. ...... . .... .....'71.„7 Majority .t.•••••” . . 021 •••! . .• .. ese The. original resolution was ° then rec l e ' i h v e. ea h t o o ns ,zu e o r rr e o szed, and the ordered i VESSELS BIL , • ...TONNAOE OF -.- -' - ° ser s ' os' The second reading of this bill, after,` e, few_ .'urn' from Mr. P. THOMSON and Arr. • a. T. In postponedtillaionday. -' ,A tyGif al, t HERTFORP. BQ II- `' - -.- tits bi,• Mr..BERNAL m oved the third - .rd reading of 4 1 of propo , 7 the purpose 1 ~, Colonel EYANS - : r( ! se:Ibr: to the mot ell , amendment to the bill, He objected ow the large addition was to be made to o k Constitu e oo 'sr borough of ,Hertferel. _lt was prop to add ;;; cultural district to the borough, and he had OW' I ; son assigned which could justify such a mode Of .p., :er sde He was convinced that adding agricultural C i lpi,to rear.ort-:4°; t sti, boroughs would be found to be highly inconVeni,•,4so also objected to the bill on the ground that it tl y e t y, the door again to that s p e cies of influence whiPtt,-Aot so much complained of in this case, and wilier e it.ral' ostensible object of the bill to avoid, namlY , t a . ;e: the ascendancy of the great landed proprietors•seje.c9 lint member concluded with proposing thatti-„aney of , mittee be appointed to reconsider the expe „10`r-ti, ape lug a new houndary for the borough of Ilei; t „.„ bu t ~ The gallery was then cleared fora divi , ' fo al t pi, took place. On our return tit the gallery:lo°ot hese'ob',l Mr. •TENNYSOINI on his legs.—lle h a ' hon. '`Vi‘.7 thing in the. original statement of th e - t • iia o''',,, e o as „ p r for Rochester on introducing that hike lOrn t° ,l a: . 01l since taken place in the house, to io( ll ,sf tiertfe r " ki l e . make such a boundary to the borough ''' su ch a n •le l 'd' proposed in the _bill. In point of fact , tit ieg I; pA, would be a complete destruction of everY, i a 1 0 'Hif';,% , pendence in the borough. The fre men• a- f e , l' i le e • t . o t o holders had not . been guiltyof those a' ' ' 1) r s„ ra es,.„„e, A which were stated in the bill ; on the con„,` ti ; e itti; 'el l e specially exempted in the report of the ': o ala r lite' thought that the first clause of the the 'A ttet tfo tt f„rdi sufficient. It would place the borough of, .i . It I l i o, l , a footing contemplated by the Reform 1 31 '004 ' : g' ie si clearly shown by his hon. and gallant l'Aiitoti p E r v e an po s s ) te t i r u t s, th a e n r d e A he ere m n u o s t t a s r a l y y e g v r en oma i ds tidic e r f oti t o s, e a fi ri ,l l t / iiet i e was proposed to the borough of ilertford•,`wo P ia• .ei , 1 To make such an addition to the boroug';iipterill, place it under the control of the agricultur e to '; es . ', i v did not object to add Hceldesdon. and -N i Tg e pla',, acl:' and give the ten-pound householders of thet 3 " t ed; ol . it'gh for members of Parliament. It had been set , hoP ) ,„ii ii tion presented by the hon. baronet the tue'; ‘ , tlia"„flvtD'' ingham that 18,000 acres had been added '' co er '., to/ by the Reform Bill. A noble duke, the e‘ co itiel g al 4 ,l l that neighbourhood, had made a great a n . e 1 3r i0 r,,,,L, number of voters in the borough by dividiniiiti et, ~t`o,' buildings,o ei f ses l ajonr of the h epa H nmE e d9E h shl a a dd improper agreedh th u u silt madee i O n N i V nm h ti O lvut ti coe S hit e lee S tr , ehs stet e:d i a s o i i thep:... al ge: p c:lc o r ; e : , lteith .l :4 i op,wo 04,, : however, not less than 32,000 acres Were to b' to " ',th e , he would ask whether it would not open a u° , e ici, i l ll o) ; gallant colonel, and although he (Sir I t ' lie ( reV o' ll ' vote for the motion of the gallant officer, ''' t sel'A I', could vote with the greatest consisteneY f ° ' . d ' o ,,i'' vi-hich it was his (Sir R. Peel's) intent°l:: the itiJo''; to the house. He was opposed to r eferr g >ii:›9 e , the consideration of ton co mmitt e ,'„ t° ,ed i t '," of' fact, it would be postpng the ina,"' r eng eb 'taili "if sion, when probably the house would.,, w the c 0 V,/ business of great importance, and tdh'iti on tioOdil subject would be forgotten, and lier' ° o f ca r lesileo it was, and those who had been g ui lt `'hat he- sr , , or l 88 (Be' Jet it , escape punishment. ( Hear, hear. ) t ease' e a ten 'el , ,,i ' that an example sheuld be made in O'l ittr ies eL 65„., 4 ,4 The borough of', Hertford had its bonTr;.,, e rs ° Tit C 11' .0,,' r the recommendation of the cornnaio`"They v. , 000 t , boundaries under the Reform Pill; the hilted ls ':,),e' new boundary for the borough, aIW a lea r , 5 1 1" 0 ~1, 1 upon to make a change. The liOn• a n e ,,tens' o ,foro l'a , (Air. Bernal) proposed that a great - f flePoy,,?; , made to the boundary of the boroug h ° ,l tha t it es .' o f commended by the commissioners, . tl 01 lie 9, 1 Y ' add a large contiguous district to it,',,,) tetiwie rural district to the town. (liar , liee-- 0 . t he 1 ., V o i vinced that the best mode of establisleenSerenire ,) i ot the agricultural or landed interest in ° to o , lis p 4,4, 0 J by. adding the proposed district to the 00 t itl e , 9 10.1 1 1? to destroying the character of the f ri , a s 0 1 pur e to t ,1:1 votes in the committee on the Rel ° - ric t :eta e t-e he did not think that the influence of pis , : lo c A( be increased by adding large ru T ' t he b e tarl,k existed between the commercial an he pie ge 1+ ,4 boroughs. If they, wanted to de s tr ° l 0 0 4 : 0 0 ~,st the landed interest in that house,itt etc, oh o f of 1 4, mode of doing so than by throwit'g bor oog 0 9 t ,9 4 0 i. ing districts. (Hear, hear.) T he first eios bets had three classes of voters. The ~.s w as _ t to ~,,r bitant housekeepers :. this class o f vo a te' si ocie4is 11' 0 0 1 and four hundred in number. It w_f tin g. ; t i l e % . 'i t . li i , and lot to constitute the right of "`' to te , ' e 1;, f po stituency of the borough. The" t here at ale tt ' t ey 130, he believed 124 or 125. Thenestittlenc/ hat' t os r householders, which was the c° l a t lie u ' e e t P l ' Reform Bill. A committee of t 1 , coottec.io, ,i, pointed to examine into the courts!:rt e l t ; s !,,, voters, together with tilt' freetnen,,e_ocenrisien w ere T . 1,4 1, these three classes of voters at ,_ n and lot `.fluids IA bet respect to those called the sco t 1 eh note , rat, P!,,,f t t io tr , to , them, as they ought ra, , ro/..- - -- - e tc , 0 4 of voters occupying hou.sesnun, „ i ii,4, li c ir that was not the exact name , 1/c ii ' km" '. t'r ~...Est.o:3l- 1 , a tay_to ,show a , ...ann2At,' , 4 t feg t tion ottlie l ir -colidat;artirsaid, Ina