The Sun. — London, England, 1825-04-20 00:00:00

-`ei7R reposition, through much odium and unpopularity, and - not without some danger, and be now thought it his duty to ..home forward and declare that his hostility to the claims of the Catholics was: concomitant with the growing distress and misery of IrelandoL( Hear, hear! )—Under these circumstances, he . considered that some great national settlement was indisPensie - ble ; and for his part, he was ready to go all prudent, indeed Jell practicable lengths, to promote any measure which could se core the peace of that distracted country. If lie was asked whe ther he now came forward with those marks of enmity, he did himself injustice—his feelings to the Romans Catholics nerer partook of any thing like enmity ; but if he was asked whether he now came forward, distinguished by_ that oppbsition which formerly marked his conduct when this question was htought forward, he was constrained tO.ansWeT"b•Y no means ; his pre sent aelingi;lek quite contrary to -those which he formerly weleh_ehietaele.,,,manyoaFeho grounds. oh which his hostility to Ihe"clairiet or the Cathi4ie stood were: nOw. gone ; many. of The .argumetitth:'whieli behithself find used; and Which he had -} 1 and heed 'lt otheritwere takeh'ainty;• . and those which remain- ed were considerably weakened. ' In' common sense, and in . " .- -tortnooft Witless andeohnieteney, liefelt - hithielf bound to Make -- this Avowal:" If, on-mature - and 'deliberate inquiry, he dlicover edtha--. he had been-in error, - lie Was bound at once to say. sit-- tHear !):--and make every atonement which it was poesilife,-by a:candid declaration of his sentiments. -He was well aware how f-the avowal of such a change of dpinion afforded grouhd fiiients eptcion, anti laid- him . open to ridicule. - lie - should not Wonder if uncharitable presuinprierhi prevailed with - respect to the sin cerity of such a change of opieion. did not coma forw ard with .this avowal of h ispeesen t tipinibnietio set himself right with House, but - he came forvrard in the hope that many who now lords upon the question —apart from Inquiry-4 Hear !) many-Who -are - misled by old facts; and _ of . d prejudices, and in sane degree alarmed - - by the • Wattling notes of the Catholics tilenieelves, may •consider the subject Mare...closely, and judge' after they have inquired. On :sittiik•Sthe _Valtiable • evidence Which was betbre Parliament, it' was to -be hOped that nrany would be induced,- by the light of knowledge and truth; to eon skier. the subject more attentively; and perhaps to grant those prayers which were so ardently -pressed; It . Woe() be hoped, that if both parties were brought forward fairlytogetheiso•they would, he seized with •romptinctious-visitingS r 'and instead of tieba*.ing imaginary difY,:Tences, wOuld consult the peaceand fit ire welfare . of lielandi by. gieing to the grounds of contest dieton tent. Thesc eiprisileratio.i i were forced open hintelind he was obliged to act upon them,.or else to neglect •his duty.. As tir:hi 14 ()Irian Catholic - relieion, es e. form of religious worship,' •aeh, as such -compared with - other religions, heShould;jsat no. Ailing.. Ile did not cliarecterizeit: " Judge nowlesoyett bejudg. ed,"! was a principle eppliCable to this as well as men y othetques ides. With respect to the Rein an. Catholic religion, as a system involvingTractiCalconsequences and the perfarnianceofsocial du ries,as that of weakening the authority which. the Goverritheht had arieln to exercise oversubje - 4s; he ehemlaciiiiy eay,that the dan ger hid ceased, although it was'not - fiirrnerly free from such an imputation. So far, ho from ag'reeing that the Roman Catholic -religion still retained thecherecter deat.belonged to it in • former times, he should say that in liadelimieted so much-that it seetdti now scarcely recognize its identity,. Whet had become of that power which once sported with' -Prinees—which caused crowned heads - to- . tremble, and exercise a despotic sway over almost every country of Europe ? The genies of the age had given it a death-blowe That coloisal power which laid claim ice temporal as well as- spiritn elauthorityehad fallen under its own weight, anti was now confined to rte own spell territory. He had been thus particular. betatiaelie apprehended this question to form the very essence of the' ditihrence.whieh existed -on the question before -the House. !tarns en this occasion lie -had al wive taken a strong groinie in onooeition to - the'- measure now before the House.. If it should Vieproved -that the Catho lics owned only a-divided 'allegiance to the Monarch, then .were the Catholics still- fitobjects foreuspicion, and it Was just as wise as expedient that they should be exclhded from'tinise trusts of - which they now desired to partake. -On this evidence the qhestion entirely rests. Hen) , man doubts the fullness and sincerity ofthe allegiance af-Rotnan Catholics to to the King, liehOpedthat man would have the hardihood to•come.forward and say on whht his suspicions were gounded. If no such doubt exieted'at to the allogiance owned by Roman Catholics, he would say-,-" Grant ' their requestseorlet us close this itivelstigatinnta.nddet no light enter upon the mystery of Irith affitirs."--(Veare heat What said the high-minded men who came oier from Ireland to give evidence ? -With these men, notwithstanding the as. persioeswhich f , d been Meanly thwiwn out; he Was Willing to make common cause.- -After the evidence of these distinguished persons, no argument can be maintained against the sincerity .the Catholics' allegiahce ; and he who shouldprge any thing as argument, must, in a nicinienti be -covered with signal COn fueion.. When the question wae put- to Dr.:Doi - 1e if the Pope -..internieddleti with the right of the King, • or-his authority in -temporal affairs, what -would be - the . consequen ce;—the reply of • Dr. - Doy.te was, the colisequenee would be, • that ive should op pose the Pope by all the means in our power, and by the exer cite of cur spiritual- - authority: It was.. the evidence of Dr. Doyle, that if the Pope t401:10 tto s eXerciSe'any.authority over the temporal. rights of the King, the duty of Catholics bound teem to oppose:the Pope's interference in temporal minters, and te support the rights of the Kitt; athis . subjects. Such was the evidence of br. Doyle, and when the question was put to the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin if the Pope's infltte ease was orelusieely spiritual; the replyto Dr. Murray was, ht . t[ e: wards of: Scripture, ." iflylingdoin is not Of this world.'" words of St. Atiguttin, therefore, we need not be alarm , - ed with. ungrounded fears. 'the Pope now a dispensing Fewer, or does be exercise the right of granting anticipated in- Oulgezicies ? He observed -on -these, because they were-the grounds on which his former Opposition was fortified, and -the - grounds on which hostility was offered in Ireland.- • Now; as to the • confiscated propery, how can it be said that the Ca thclict -seek to recover it ? The Catholics hdie lately beers the erineipah - purchasers of confiscated property. • Confiscated i property s considertel by them to be held Muter tire best - and most _secure title; and what- interest coul' they have in en. e es voii: i tt gto recover the • confiscated property ?—(Hear, lear!)--.The:prineipatilifficultieshri the way of settlement had been, rethought, • retitoved. The only questien.remaining is 'whether-spiritual concerns. are clearly separable from' temporal; and lie did in his.- heart - think that spiritual and. temporal CO7. cerns' were plainly' separable. lle thought, no man could • say that there were any indispensilde connection between them.— lieder Wiese-circumstances he Brotvelete) was "prepared to vote for.the. Min. Baronet's mtithme -at the same tinie he could net think - that the Bill introdticed- by-the tionoßaronet was the most perfect Rill which, could - be framed - to provide for the. wants of- the Catholice, and et the same time secure the tranquillity of Ireland. thohld have contemplated provision • for the Catholic clergy, hind the' diSqUalification of 4tl.e. freeholders. .TheSe measures were indispensible to form a comprehensive notivitlistehding this omission, he, should-vote for the Honourable Baronet's motion, reserving to itriseif -the power of opposing the-Bil/ altogether, or any par tictilar Clause, in a Committee, of -oh the third-reeding, or at tiny period-when he considered such opposition mast likely to be successfel.: With respect to the-provision -for the Catholic :Fwgy, he considered it a Matter of great importance. lie &bought shell a erovisiM: should be reade_not a s a-debt of gra titude due to the Catholic Clergy fur their exertions in restoring -peace; arta Toitieating . hostile. feelings iofi the contrary—vireo- . stPring the habitS of- intimacy with which they live with their tacks, and the undoubted influence • which they exercise-over this understandings of the peopl:i, he did not think they could hsve done much less • for the.peace of the country.. But - the provision for • the Catholic Clergy would confer a benefit- 'as seat, - as. any Which • could arise from -Catholic Ethaneipation. weld - bring • a elate hit() co-oPeratienhadth - the Govern. feet, which confessedly :possesses a' poWerful epirittial ih s Serest overhhe people of Ireland. It was- necessary to- incor porere this- body with the State. and he'hoped when;_ like the • Presbyterians, they discevered that no interference was Intended with- the independence of 'their religidn, they wortlii hem.. a good "allies to the State, , and remain inseparably connected with it. Aktb the restriction of the . elective'fieth , chile, considered la evert point of view, paliticaloneral,sek respects the endless subdivision of -lands; and the endleSs tiplication of beggars in'this" country,. it would he a most usefel 'tneaeure, and one-which could trot isedisaPproved of . by any party.. All parties would rejoice in a measure which joined - Emancipation "With- theelieqUalification of certain freeholders, • -and the provision- for the 'Catholic Clergy. The Roman Ca. italics would be gratified, because the measure.of Emancipa tion -came home to' the heart of every one of them ; and . with regard to the Protestant population, he apprehended that they -would consider the measures- to which he alluded its the very best security tehieli could accompany the etincestion - The House could rade he - ate.cioun to giVe any-triumph. Is must be the wish of the House',-if possible, to pass - the. Measure that -would be satisfactory to all parties. -By granting Emancipa. tidh without accompanying it with the measures to which he bad adverted, Parliament would estrange the Protestants; and altholigh Catholic Emancipation•shoUld be "granted, the con -ffictihg principle would be found meeting every attempt to en ," courage industry, and heal the' disthrbahres . of Ireland. In 1792 political power was given to the rabble, and kept from persons of property and station. Ile now called upon the Hohse -to eetrace -this unwise step, to take away the poiver from the -rabble, and give it to property, talent, and station. - The free holder in Ifeland was now the joint property of his landlord and his priest ; he was incapable ofjudgingthe comparative merits of Mil , candidate, and not sufficiently independent to •do so. even if-he had 'the power. •He (Bin Goulburn) now-proposed to givetthe'elective power to those who possessed property and intelligence, and could estimate the merits of candidates. Re. had now laid •before the .Rouse the foundations of a national itettlement, which, in hiseipinion, tvottld to acceptable - to all, and. he hoped. would insurh the repose of Ireland, and the seCh rttyOf the British - Empire . . o h (LOud cheees.) • °' Mr. BA NKES but, wag' inaudible' in the gallery fin se- ~~ r ._ .. veral minutes. The lion. Gentleman was understood to say, that he was opposed to the measure of emancipation, -because he considered it dangerous in principle, bat if it should be accom panied by the Hon. Member fOr Armagh (Mr. Brownlow) al luded, far from considering it less objectionable, he should count it infinitely more so.--(llciar, hear propoial Io deprive forty shilling freeholders of the elective fra.nefikie was harsh.,and unnecessary, and, in his opinion, would .be tyran- MAL Re now - came to that, part of the subject conritited - wiiii W - p tagvnent of thy* clergjP,,iipon which he would-remark, that all4the odium of collecting tithe would lie upon the Protestant Oirgy,' whilst the Catholic Priests would be paid in the most convenient manner. 'P#:. lion. Member then (as we understood .hhts, for he was nearly inaudible during his whole speech) took a revision of the expence which would attach to .the country by the allowances that were to be paid under this measure, and ob served, that there were 2,500 parishes, and 3.500 Roman Ca tholic Priests, to whom it was proposed to give incomes, and upon this would follow the erection of glebe houseS, which had been. Sa often adverted to in that House. In addition to this.;, the College of Maynooth was to be provided for; for, according to Mr. O'Connell, that establishment was in need of pecuniary assistance., But surely the House would not go blindly into such an expence as this, for the purpose of snpporting, the establishment of a religion inimical to that recognized - and che rished by the State; If this measure were carried, it would' be impossible for the church property to continue as aresent it was constituted. If Catholics were introduced-into Parliament it must be altered. If this boon were granted to the Catholics, he could not see upon what ground it could be refused to every other class of Dissenters. Upon the best consideration that he could give the question, haelt it to be so fraught with danger, that he should move as an amendmentto the motion of the Hon; Baronet, that instead of the wowl-v-now," the words " this day six moths" be inserted. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE and Mr. W. PEEL having arisen at the same time, The spEAKEH. dedareti that M. W. PM had first"caught his eye. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE—Sir, I rise to sound the motion of amendment. The SPEAKER—Does the Hon. Member (Mr. W. Peel) the to second the amendment ? - .. . - Mr,.W. PENI. answered in the affirmative, and proceeded-.' to address the House. The opposition to the Catholic Claims: ' i was, at present, as strong in Staffordshire, Where lie resided, as- • it ever had. been. Though he had beard - most imposing argu— ments and splendid eloquence wasted in the advocacy of the present - measure, he should confess that they_ brought no new ei light. of conviction to his mind. The day of Conversion had not - arrived to him,' as it - had to - hiS - Hoff; Friend. -7- 0 far from that, every. Additional day's experience brought to him new reasons .for .adhering to the opinions which he had hitherto steadily maintained on the questitm. The violence of the Catholics ought not to weigh with.the house as an inducement to pass the Bill--as to the argument in favour of - it adduced from the nome rical importance of the Homan Catholics; he considered it rather as an argument against them, for the more numerous they were, the moredangerous it would be to grant to them political power. If the Catholics were declared admissible to Parliament, a general election, in which Protestant and Catholic candidates may be opposed, would excite a universal conflict of religious and political bad feeling through the country. The presept Bill was accompanied by two measures most worthy of it, according to the old phruse e noscitur ex.sociis, That proposed by the'Hiin. .Member for Staiford,•(Mr. Lyttleton) was as objectionable as it was 'new ; be• the intended measure 'of a :'7 , ble Lord ( Leveson Gower), namely, that for supporting the Catholic Clergy,• was still more objectionable.. . The people-of England ought not to. be taxed to .pay the clergy-of a religion, v:hose doctrines were so different from their own. The miseries •of Ireland did not arise -from the absence of political Power among the Ca tholics, but from the want of capital, commerce, and educa tion. Catholic Emancipation would not relieve Ireland's mi series. The- Bill was a Bill of Catholic Aicerolancy. While he. should continue to revere the religion-in which he had been educated, and respect the oaths of political attachment which }wiled taken, he should consirier himself bound to oppose the concession of further political power to the Roman Catholics of. the Empire. Colonel BAGIVELL expressed his firm opinion. that the . distractions and sufferings of Ireland chiefly-Originated in the baneful effects of the penal laWsee When_ -those laws were enacted, it was under the excitement. caus^ed by the enormities committed by the Reman Catholics; but times had now changed, and the asperities on-both sides had worn down. Was - it then just, was it Christian, that they should be called upon so give perpetuity to the resentment of their ancestors ?.-( Hear, hear !) —He was satisfied that -the- best - security which could be ob tained for the safety of a measure like the present, was the in- ' terests of the Catholics themselves. In Answer to those who objected to the expense of paying - the Clergy. he would say . that it would be met -by a reduction of 'KuOO bayonets.— (Hear,!)-I,le gave his most hearty support to the motion. Mr. G. DAWSON observed, that .in consequence of what had fallen from his Hon. Friend the Member ,leir Armagh, and I , ..erit the Hon. Member Who had just sat down, he was most . anxious to express his sentiments nn the question Were the House, and he therefore begged ' their indulgence for a short time. It was with,grcat pain that 'he rote upon. this occasion, because he felt that the opinionieWhiCh lie was about to declare were such as many or his Hon. Friends around him would deerteerrOneous ; but in discharge of his ; dirty he was bound to declare theth. He fully agreed with them in the importance of this question. It involVed the most serious interests of the people both of England and Ireland, anti- - throughout Europe, he might say a general expectation' had' been excited in this matter. Both the • friends and the enemiea of this country ex pected something of the most vital importance to result front its decision to dila empire, each forming thtiirrown opinions, either of evil or of good, according to their respective dispositions to wards us. It was not surprising, :therefore, that any 'man should approach the question with the greatest alarm_ As . for himself, he could truly say he was alarmed at what might result from the decision of the question .. either way. On the one side he dreaded ' the consequences which might fallow from the upholding of what was Called by some a system of injustice and of political persecution ; _ on the other - side he was equally alarmed at the introduction of a system which had been the dread and terror of many great and illustrious men, as, calculated to operate fatally to the institutions and best interests of this country. On the one tide he threaded the consequences to Ireland that Would follow the refusal of the demands of the Catholic body there; and on the other he dreaded the upsetting of every thing that was established not only m that country but in England also. On the one side he dreaded the consequerices of leaving the unintelligent mass of the Irish', people to be worked upon by the insidious arts of every den gerous demagogue, and on the other side he dreaded to invigo rate and consolidate a party in Ireland which-was adverse to all that was established there either in the Church or in the Go vernment, and which was full of the bitterest rancour and dead-, , liest hatred towards every thing and every person belonging to the Protestant name. Wh&i such conflicting conseqnences were poised and balanced - in the scele, it was not a very pleasant or agreeable duty to docile upon which should or should not be allowed the preponderanCe. Most heartily would he forego such a painful task. -If he 'were convinced, as his lion. Friend the Member for Armagh had been, that peace and tranquillity and subordination among all classes of the . people Would result froth the concessions called foe by - the Bill now before the House, he would most gladly and readily follow his Honourable Friend's example; he would abandon all. the notions - which he had hitherto entertained of the dangers ' that would: ensue from ' granting Emancipation to the Catholics, :end would expose him... - selfeaa his Honourable Friend h a d d one , t o all the.ohloquy that might -be . . cast 'upon him in ctinsequerice 'of - a change in .his opmion. But unfortunately, perhaps; for himself, he was not so_coniiated. - Whatever his cpinioes. bad - been,- whether right or errimeotA, on this great question, he entertained them still, and after the best judgment he. could give the subject, he was compelled to arrive at a different result than that avhieh. the Honourable Member for - Armagh had come to, and he thought :those opinions strongly confirmed. by the "evidence now before [ i the House. .That-evidence..contained - such vast and extensive v , ews of the present state of Ireland ; especially as the opinions and habits of the „people: It psi them. into the cabin of the peasant,-and into the mansion 'of the rich ; into the _Protest, ant Church, the.Catholic'Cliapel; and the Presbyterian Meet ing-house. -In all those places were to be seen the afflictions of the people, and - the sad eTects arising from Catholic disc. bilities. lie agreed with - his - lion. Friend the Member for Armagh, that these evils ought to be removed; hut he difilired from him in beli ev i n g t h at that could •be 'effected by Catholic Emancipation. -He theinght his Hon. Friend had not inquired what the op era ti on of-the 'Catholie religion was when employed in exerting- a dominion over the nmsions. He - thought bis Hon. Friend had- alloWed his mind to bp influenced liy the so phistry and metaphysical subtlety of . the Catholic_ writers.-- Like many others, he was struck with the observation Which was male on the examination 'of the Catholic. _Gentlemen be ration of the piesent system towards such men as Mr. Make fcire the Committee-. - It was impossible riot to perceive the oPe and Mr. O'Cdnnell. -- I t wou ld b e fol l y tot t'. admit that "men - of such talents deserved to he enconeeged;'and to participate in the privileges of their - Profession. It wasimpoasible not to ad_ - patience and p a t erna l ze al o f the Catholic Bishops, a m n i o r mire tt wash invOs s ibl e - not to admire ' Doyle. - ia Invas at . th same time e also the - ability of 1)r. equally impossible to re concile t h e - .turbulence of Mr. O'Connell in Ireland With his maderation in England. His party zea l which broke out into the most inflammatory language while. in .Ireland with - his mild and cautious demeanour when before the Committee.— 'He must sax, he could harldiv understand how • the friend of Mr. Cobbett - could be also the friend, of the Hon: Member 'for Westminster, or how he ioUld tie at "the sante time the 'friend and advocate of Univ e e sa e 8404 7 c . and of his _Majetity's .., . Vovernnient:-4Hear, hear ;these " !)eie ciretinataticeacoMpelled him (Mr. Dawson) to view that Gentleman's conduct with had now acquired wealth, and with that political influence. Of great suspicion and distrust, and his knoWledge of Mr. O'Con- that influence it was impossible. to . deprive them.. We ceuld nein talents only . -served to strengthen his wishes .more than now, as had been observed by the Honourable Member for his conviction. lie was equally astonished at the conduct of Dr. Armagh, re-enact the penal code; and it was :impossible; to Doyle. It was imposSible to reconcile that person's writings stand still. •We should, therefore, if We sought' for the tan rein his evidence before the Committee. In whatever light quillity of Ireland, go on, and grant that now willingly, which thi s might be received, it must excite a lively apprehension mite::: hereafter be wrung from .us by necessity. : With respect a t th e success of a cause which was advocated by a maa of his to the influencesof the propesett e measure on the Established ability and lent-piing, in this double Character of witness aad .ef Church, he thought that t usy measure which would tend (ate lie author. It was without doubt well known that Dr.' Doyle was had no - doubt this would) to the tranquillity of Ireland, would a political writer, and that some pamplets signed J. K. L., had also tend to support the Protestant religion in that country. been sent into the country, of which he was pretty well under- Mr. NORTH said, he could not hope to add any thing to the stood t o be the anther. These pamphlets contained the grossest Persuasive; and he - was - convinced the eirectiVe eloquence of attacks upon every thing and every body connected with Pro- those who had preceded him on his side of the . .question ; but - teat n ntism, which must excite the most lively fears of every man because he was satisfied of the connection of the subject now who was at all attached to - the Church of England. They before the Heine with the essential interests of the country, he breathed the most •rancorotne spirit towards - the laws, the bit- could not be satisfied to give a silent vote. He, doubtless,. terest hatred towards the Church Establishmennand the greatest with many others, had attended to the speech of the Honour. f. intolerance when speaking of the Catholic religion. As a Levis-. able Member f or Armagh (Mr. Brownlow), and had rejoiced . lams, he treated the laws with contempt, and designated them as in the victory obtained‘ by truth over error, while he admitted infamous— as a Divine, he launched out into the most unmea- the candour and manliness of that Honourable Gentleman's sured exoeessions of abhorrence, at thevery mention of any thing observations, and the arguments i n w hi c h he (M r . North) belonging to the Chorch of England he was thrown into agonies, perfectly acquiesced. To • him it was matter of considerable he condemned its principles, repudiated its doctrines, and ana- surprise that the eloqu ence t h at cou ld sat i s f y t h e m i n d o f one • thematized _its defenders.. When speaking of his own religion, Honourable Member, so far as to prove to him the necessity he was arrogantand .bigoted, intol e r a nt a nd overbearin g . Dr. of granting the measur e , had made another. Honourable Doyle, in these pamphlets, presented ,the truest picture ola Member the more convinced of the necessity of opposing it. most passive and adopted child of the Pope. If Dr. Doyle bad The lionoufa'ole Member for Derry (Mr. Dawson) had stated lived in earlier times,. Pope Boniface himself could •not have. that he was utterly unable to reconcile the change of tone on desired a more ready man to upset Ireland, and involve it in the part of 31r. O'Connell and the oth er l ea d ers o f th e Catholic. all the horrors of •a religious vier. But before the Committee. , party—the change of tone in this country from the tone as-' th e Do c to r was a different man altogether. There he was the sumed by them in their own. But he (Mr. North) would ask: friend of E ng landa-ohe admirer of the British Constitution and that Honourable Member if be could really conceive no way : the laws, i m _a_ w as ;Cady ,to suhearibe to every thing, saving the of accounting for this change? ;Was it not the most natural, power of the Pope in religious matters. His answers were so was it not the most obvious, effect of the different courses that . eloquent, so copious, -and so learned upon these matters; that had been pursued towards those_ persons when they were in Ire-. they had produced _coneitlerableeffecte and he ( Air. Dawson) land, and when they were exstnined at the Bar of that House— was sorry to say - a much greater effect than they deserved upon addressing them e "at one time," says Mr. Burke, in the . the mind 'of liis lion. Friend, the Member for Armagh. But language of conciliated friends, and at another in the language' when - the-,Commieree asked Dr. Doyle witether he• had read the of insulted and irritated foes. They had spoken in Ire letters signed " J. K. L."' he answered " Yes."-," Did he land when irritat e d by insult and injustice, and' th e y h a d agree with the principle's contained in those letters?"—" He changed their tone the moment they were called before a Cone dared to:Say - lie ;diel."--q Did he agree with the principle of mittee, and examined at the Bar of the • tlonse,- in order doing a w a y with tiler 40a: freeholds?" Here the Doctor was to discu s s the subje c t of what' Wouht . be - of advantage to getting upon delicate, giohnd, for in the pamphlets ,he had their common country, and they had changed !theia 'language exehtimedniONtlOhdlY atedishii -this 'disfranchise:neat of the Ca. because. their ,feelings and their sentiments•bad . ' Changed. thelic peasantry, .ind,- like •a. ethlful General; but mot like a They had derived a hope • of - success to their cause from their skilful Diving, he appealed to the Committee, evaded giving perseverin g i n thi s li ne o f con d uct . A n d what 'didothis ehenge nrhanawee, and (without meaning; to ofl' e nd, sa id the lion. Of em-. of tone and manner - prove ? What but a foretaate of the tran .ber)he in a jesuitical way got rid of the question—(Laughter). quillity anti calmness that in6t be produced` by the measure But this artifice could not succeed, for the Doctor had published they anticipated ? And if it were found that those persons had his books; - in whiciihiS . opinions on this point were recorded, changed their feelings because of the gleam of !time that shone and-he (Mr. - D.) Wm - Shiny his friend, the Member for Armagh upon- their cause, 'what might we not expect if the measure h a a s o soon decidettitenmakintamp his mind; because, it lie had were ultimately carried, and this dawning increased more and not done so, he (Mr. I).) would have asked_ him to read and more, unto perfect day. He could not help auguring fairly of compare the. evidence With these letters. Hut it was not too late the cause of the. Catholics, from the arguments that had been to Call. upon Hixeourahle Memlith-s to' do this.—(Hear, hear!) adduced by those who had that night opposed the measure, who, lie therefore 'wooldnisk every gentleman to compare what was when the question was brought forward depending on its own stated by Dr. Deylpio the pamphlets, anti what was said by him merits, had applied their argunients not to the general question, before the Chminitteenandthen he would reqhest each Member but to collateral points—points that were not now before the to. ask him Sel- how it was possible that the Doctor could be House. This course he would not follow, but would confine him right in both. ..It anti this inconsistent conduct on the part of self to the true question at issue. To the arguments used in op -31 ra O'Cotinellaind Dr. i)oyle .which rendered the settlement position to the bill by an Ilon, Menther (Mr. Bank - es) who. of this great .question alinost impossible. The Catholics of spoke on the floor, he would reply as-w e ll a s he wa s a ble. Th at Ireland were entireitkguided by • Dr. Doyle and Mr. O'Con- lion. Member had argued, anti his argument,. if correct, would hell. The former: in aecelesiastical matters, and the latter in have been a very.conclusit e one—that the grievanCes complained every thing that - related to politics. Die Doyle taught them of' by the Catholics were imaginary and uofounded: 'Now, : he, that the Established: Church was hateful, and that theirs was wished every Member in the II ouse woitd 14_ hie hand upon the only true' Chits lit • fie was universally beloved by the Ca- his heart, and ask himself whether or not the Catholics had dailies, and hated hetahe Protestants. Mr. O'Connell, by the real grievances to complain of. Ho* did the laws against him Same means, sehtlfebe against every thing that was Protestant. affect the professional man ? He would first take the country The consequence -ofall this was, that there was scarcely a gentleman, who possessed property in the land, who distin- Protestant in .Iceland who did not dread' that a very great guished himself on grand juries, anti acquired by his conduct convulsion would ensue by any concessions being made to the time esteem anti love of the surrounding gentry, whatpower could Catholics; and there was scarcely a Catholic who did not ex- - be have? What privilege could he enjoy ? In What respect was pea some advantages .to arise to their body from these conces- his situation better than that of a forty shilling freeholder ? He skins being made.. 'Bat the Protestants, en the contrary, dreaded would take time lawyer, who was urged to eMploy his talents and such a measure being obtained by the hollow, dangerous, and spend the better years of his life in acquiring a profession by deceitful conduct of their Catholic - friends now in this country, .painful and continued study, and who - had succeeded in gain and they could only: exnect from it the ruin and destruction Of ing the public confidence, the public esteem, and the advantages . the Protestant cause.. -To expect peace to prevail in Ireland, which confidence and esteem bring with them, butwho, when his or to anticipate •better things while such were the feelings and success encouraged him in aspiring to the highest honours of opinions which taiisted, was visionary and delusive. The hie profession, found himself held back until his Protestant bro- Catholics had determined it should not he, for they had they had overtaken him, and had passed on and taken his place already begun to evince theirAtostile spirit. Whiehever above him. Was not this a grievance Most vexatious anti most way, therefore, the... Protestants looked, _ they . saw nothing galling? Was it not.a grievance which no man who had the to diminish the dangerlto arise to them from Catholic conces- spirit ofn man could bear without complaining ?_and was it ,tioD. , lie Would - liere•irefer to history to show the Concurrence not a grievance that would always create discontent and disafa of the views of the . Catholics of the p r e s ent day with those - fection ?—Was it not a deep and a sad grievance that a man of time past. On the 31st Maya-182-1e a • petition was presented_ might have those advantages which were sordid and mean, to this llonee from th e catholic Association. That petition while the honours attendant on his profession could never be was sufficiently longted, complex; and contained some sweep- his—that lie might fill the offices of the money-changers in the ing accusatiOns.of every thing th a t ves Protestant, which ex- Temple, but to those h'iherstations with which rank and - ho cited even the obseFv.ndan ot' the Honourable Member himself nour was connected, he could never hope to obtain ? It had who presented it, 'end who declined moving that it should, be been said that our Constitution was an exclusive 'Constitution : receiva, as he -fist -a' certain conviction that the House would he (I,lr. North) did not so conceive it ;he believed it was the in eipteslhis coadenmation of it. ' It was a carious coincidence, tention of those who framed it, that all classes should enjoy as that the prayer ut thetatetitien embraced the very things which, much liberty as was consistent with nationalpenee: and as to the according th the - writer of the pamphlet signed J. K. L., were assertion that our Constitution was eiLlu - sive, he had nowhere actually carried into effect by the Catholic Parliament of 1687. found it—he had nowhere read it. It was also said, that " You In that year fiord Ty-rent:eel' was 'Lientenant of Ireland, who w ill be giving the Catholics political power." New political power removed all PrOtestanhofroMaheie official situations under GO- would appear, by this argument, to mean something exceed veymneent. • Having -•aucceeded- ire , removing every of who ingly alarming. But what in reality was it? it was devised by law, was a Protestant, the next attack was upon the Corporations. and ilia* it was limited.. It was acquired by thecompetitiOnof Their Charters. wire , accordingly 'taken away. By thus dis- .honourable men, by honourable exertions, and by the cultive 'placing the Proteseanoca and substituting Catholics, a controul tion of intellect and the superiority of mind. Such was poli. was 'obtained over - Parliament. The next step, therefore, was to tical power ; and what dangerous effects were toe be .appre-o give a colour to these acts of injustice. In 1639 an election took heed e d, if such powers were to be given to .tile . Roman Catho- piece,- arid by the. pOsseesion Of all the Corporations by the Ca- lies ? But, he would ask,.have the Catholics no power ?. tholics e . such a Parliament was obtained, that there were only What, have we not given them th e p ower o f eiciting sympathy eight Protestant Members in the House of Commons, and in and r e verence in the minds of millionsa-of eptit countrymen ? the House of Lords there were about - 4G or 47 Catholics. This Have they not a power of altering at will the tranquillity of the Parliament passed.= -Act of Attainder, by which no, less than public mind ? Haste they not a power o f e mb ar rassing—forhe - 2,600 persons were attaintt •I of hull treason. The Parliament . might say of embarrassingeven the Government ? And yet_ of.itiB9 was adtiptedoe an example by the Catholic Association, it was said that there would be a danger in increasing that and the reforms proposed by Dr. Doyle were precisely similar-to eawer, because it would place. two. or -three of their body as those carried by thaoParliament. The Diocese of Dublin were Members in the House. of Commons. Yet, after all, though placed in the hantlee of the Catholics, 'anti Piotestant school- they are in their own country giants, they would be here only masters were prohibited from 'teaching. Several Popish Fellows . pigmies. No—the, true question was, whether. by giving them were in the Dublin UniverSity, anti they appointed a Popish this trifling additional power, you will Make them your own, or Priest the Provost.. As' a specimen of that reform which Dr. permit them to continue in hostility against yOu ? Whether you Doyle had eo much. at heart, tiritt Parliament took the Univer- will bring ,them into an intimate alliance with the State, Or sity of Dublin and 28 churches in the diocese into its own hands, permit theta still to he a 'formidable eneMy ? It was said, that and no doubt would haye establish e d th e C a th o lic ascendancy, though seven centuries had elapsed since Popish domination was if that career of that Parliament had not been stopped by,the unlimited in this country, and thought so many improvements in battle of the Boyne.: :He could give no other definition of the everii. - art, anti in every science, had taken place since that period, Catholic Association than that it was in all respects the Catho- the minds of the Catholics were on this sobject unchanged. If lie - Parliament of 161190 Ile begged pardon for detaining the he could for a moment believe this, lie could only attribute it to House so long, but he had now satisfied himself by expressing his a miracle; and a greater miracle he would contend had never opinion on the measure now before. the House. fie was con- been left on record titan such a circumstance would be. What ! vinced that if thi s Bill were to he carried, instead of its giving 'this doctrine remain stedfast and unchained, when almost every tranquillity to Ireland, it would - only have the effect of produ. thing had so materially altered, and when man had become so • cing a succession of tutbolerice and bloodshed, which would enlightened—this doctrine, hat an individual held the right of terminate in a religious War e Ile,preferred die Protemtant este- unlimited sway over the minds and bodies of millions of men blishment, because it. hiamathed It spirit of liberality towards all as highly endowed as he! : Of such a doctrine he knew and be other denominations-abeeau se it conferred prosperity upon the lieved nothing, but he knew one thing that would answer it__ country, and because it' lied the best and wisest and most learned and - the only thing was h uma n nature; he knew that it was men for its friends and defenders. He (treaded Catholicism , human nature to be grateful for services performed; that it because he tho ug ht it cherished a - spirit of intolerance, and was was human 'nature to give affection for kindness; and that it inimical to the true interests of mankind; and he implored the was h,unian nature to give hatred for opp re s sion. Do ewe be- House therefore to pause . b e f ore t h ey d eterm i ne d to pass the lie‘,'e t"en that the doctrine which declared that no faith is to , present Bill, by which that baneful spirit would be • enabled to, be odd with heretics remains unchang ed ? Do we ima g in e that operate against a nd ultimately overthrow the Government of any such settlement is held by the Catholics? What ! by the the country. Catholics who ranked among them a Fenelon and a Pascal, and . . • • Lord MILTON said, that his feelings on this question, pro ducel by thetspeech.of. .the lion. Member fin. Armagh, were not at all diniinished , by theSe of the Hon. Members who fol lowed oil the opposite side. He was now, as he had been, an advocate for.th.e principle :uf emancipation.- . The merits of that question did not hang upon-the political conduct or the religious opinions of a few, members of the Catholic body ; and in rising 4 to advocate it, he did not.stand forth as the apelOgist of the Ca- . tholic Prelatfb „or -Itte. thictiAtes .wiiiclt. they. taught. Neither did he tea fitinSelrbectind tO reconcile the opinions of J. K. L. with thoSe of Dr. • D4le ' or; Mr. O'COrmell. Their con sistency _wai in their eiwn . Leeping, and it was not the busi. ness of that House to redbrfcile 'their ..differences. Leaving those cliff:re:ices out of consideration, the .question before the }louse leas plair(iind 'Simple. It was, whether the cir.: cumstances of the tines in which eve lived called for the conti nuance of a code, enacted in a period of civil contest,. and having for its object, not the putting down a religion, but apolitical party. The Honourable Member who last addressed the notise had quoted the acts of the ParliaMent of King James in Ireland, but he not quoted fairly, He had looked only to one si!o . of the question. King James, it should be recollected, was a .monarch inclined to absolute despotism. He was one who looked to the divine right of Kings. When lie had that "object in view, what was more natural than that they should endeavour to , cripple . the peewee of his adversaries. These ad versaries were the . Protestants. It was therefore quite natural that he should wish to remove them froM places . of trust and yower. But what application. had that fact to the times and cir cumstances of the present day ? We had now no King James, and it was not for a moment to be supposed -that the illustrious family now upon the throne of this-country could ever in(l,.?l.rge_ a feeling h ost il e to i ts liberties, or ever wish to make use o f tile Catholics a s agents for their subversion. Rernetnbering what _ was done by the political.a gents of King James against thetdid testants, he . was not at all surprised at what the Protestants When they came into power. Looking at the circumstances of the times, he could hardly consider it 'unjustifiable.' They w ere con sistent. the - penal. code; and whether wise or unwise,. they * ri i e s s t : n. and forT h t e h i Their t o bjeet w a s th to e they reduce endeavouredthe o r o e f a t 4 h c e e i rtwhaed popvcrsa e lation to p. state of purpose.barberism. In this they Front J - f , . , a ceeded ; but those times Ware bow gone been releASC4. I fity thogreat mass' of.the Irish people lied long . • unfortunately sstucte so many other. high and eminent ornaments of liitmari kind ? —What ! could such be bslievcd to be the religion of our ; ' because in that own virtuous ancestors ? No, every thing proved thit such a ot intend tb del* 'the Houseought indeed,- her, whether he did not feel convinced that the question hall werebetn rot now, gainingwhether ground i—p not to be conceded to the Catholics, but that it was could be kept from them, and at what period it how long it would become ,necessary .tn grant it—until what time of difficulty and danger it could be delayed—and to what new embarrassments it must owe its final t.,.uccess ? The people of Ireland were acquiring and had acquired property ; to this propertyhad been added education ; and was it now meant to wait until to property and to education they added power, .which might enable them to break down the barrier that had been been raised between them and their rights ? . Was it meant to wait until some ti m e of dancer an d of difficulty should at last alarm their opponents —a tune when, concession would lose every quality of benefi cence —a time when concession would be given without grace, and received without thankfulness? that a certain degree of inconveniencelt would be vain to deny would attend the grant ing of the measure ; but even there w ere d anger , it was the misfortune of the case that pit' toere were six millions of Catho lics : even if there were that would look to danger danger, it would be a weak policy which was near at hand that was remote, and neglect that distant. dan-er, and overlook —that would point the telescope to erlook that which was beneath the eye. But the Catholic and he agreed fully in the h were endowed with much power, e opinion of the H on ourable Mem ber for Armagh, th at w not gone far enough; th e had either gone too far, or we had we must either re-enact the penal code with all its terrors, at or we must do -away . altogether with those disqualifications which still remained. He hoped and trusted that the 11 Le 4 I, • ature would at length see the' necessity for embark'mg in that line polio of y which had been so earnestly. , recoMmended by some of the best' men that had ever lived ; that they would act on the principle that must restore peace to Ireland, and give' so much happiness to so great a yortion, of our fellow subjects, whaeseelLring the prosperity_of the empire at large. • - Colonel" FORD merely rose to. state, that he perfectly con curred in all that had been adatinced. ; by the Hon. Member for Armagh. He did not think that the question could remain as it stood at present, but tlfat the interests of both countries would be advanced by the passingsif the present Tll. Lord ENNISMORE said that he intended to vote against the second reading of.this Bill. He had voted in favour of the motion for going into 'a Committee:on this subject, in the hope that some arrangement .might have been devised in it which would...have been satisfactory to all parties. No such arrange" ment was visible in the Bill. If, however a when the Bill went into the CoMmittee, clauses-should be introduced providing for the Catholic Clergy, and regulating the elective franchise, be shoald have no obj ec ti on t o vote i n f avour o f t h e t hi r d r eading. Mr. JAiiES.DAIX expressed great surprise at the incon sistent conduct ()rids Noble Friend who, had just sat down. His Noble Friend ought to vote for the second reading of - the Bill, in order to give the. House an opportunity of introducing into it the clattes which he recommended ; because if they .were not introduced, he might consistently withhold Ms nip port from the third reading. He should vote in favour of the present measure, because he considered it as one of the very first importance. The system of liberality on which it Ws° founded was calculated to put an end to the party animosities of Ireland for ever. The Catholics had of late years advanced in numbers, in property, in education, and in liberality of feel = ing. Was it extraordinary that under sueli circumstances the'', should ask fora remission of the laws under which they smarte , and should claim an equality of rights with the rest of their fel low-countrymen ? One lion. Member had opposed this well" sure, because part of it tended to disfranchise the freeholder' of Ireland. - 11 e kneW nothing :as yet of such a measure, and therefore should Consider this measure entirely on its own ate' rits. The present was a serious moment. for Ireland. The calm that prevailed there was not thin calm of apathy, but the calm of intense interest. Catholics of that country We° united together, frean the highest Peer down to the lowest OW . sant ; they had put aside all minor interests, and they ?ter! now combined, hand an d h ear t, f or th e recovery o f t h e ir Jut and lawful rights. He could not contemplate without alarm tilc irritation of millions of men. It was true.that the Catholic / 184 , sociatioai was at an end . ; but if this Bill were thrown out, lb ° Catkelles would a sso c i a t e again a though not perhaps under th e same denomination, and would endeavour to take by force Ow l which they could: not obtain. by fairmeans.--.(Hear, hear !) -- la mean When he said by f orc e, he did not to assert that they` would seek to take it by.rebellion, ,but that they would thre w the Protestants, both in Ireland and in England, into such a state of alarm and discomfort, that they would be glad i t f a „ get rid •of it by 'granting t o th em t h e concess i on s th e y : u' - winded. He was bound to speak out freely to the Housel, ,( Hear !)—He had a deep st a k e i n th e country ; an d he w°u'-• ; undertake to say," that all the pioperty in it w o u ld be dilly" nishcd one-half in value, if -Parliament should now dash th e cup of consolation from the Catholics, after it had voluntarily. raised- it to their lips. • In - conclusion, he eulogized the c onducl of the Catholic clergy. In his own county he had witnease" the benefit of their - exertions, and had cveal heard it ackno" ledge - el repeatedly by the judges. Sir N. COLTHURST voted in favour of this measure, b e. cause he conceived it unjust to exclude any class of men froia the benefits of the Constitution, without the existence of an Or quate necessity or of some great danger being f u lly proved him. Now he thought that a necessity was droved for their gu. mission into the pale of the Constitution, and that great l danger a' would arise if they wer e l onger exc l u d e d f rom i t , lie ' o voted in favour of thi s m easure , b ecause h e was conv i nc ed tha t, by so cluing, he should dimini s h th e num b er o f Catholics, o t `.. consequently increase th e s t a bili ty o f t h e E sta bli s h e d Chure" Things could not remain long in the situation in which• they were at present. The q ues ti on nifait be settled ; and in other way could it be safely settled than by conceding to the Catholics the rights th e y demanded, Until such concessi on were made to them, the prosperity of Ireland must inevitabil, be retarded.--(Question, question.) Mr. GOULBURN said, that if he could be induced to-he" Liebe, that by acceding to the present Bill the House would PIT; duce general conciliation and tranquillity in Ireland, he shan' d . have no hesitation in follo w i ng th e h onest an d man l ; course o f the Member for Armagh, and an giving to it his decided appro bation. He. could not, ho wever , b r i ng hi mse lf to en t er t a in suc h ' a beliefaand•lie must therefore repeat the objections which h e had formerly ur g ed a g a i nst this measure. He could not ig'l'o o in the sentiments expressed by the lion. Member for the coned of Galway. To tell him th at t h e C at h o li cs o f I re l an d dernan ia , ed these concessions, a nd th a t if t h e y were re f use d , they vinti,ia take them by force, w as n o t an argumen t to w hi c h he c oo l listen. Ile was willing to yield to the voice of reason, but would be the last man to give w a y to an y thi n k lik e a t h r eat 0 !:,i,„ question of this nature.---(Hear !)—lle had been hostile to “ I ', o • measure on former occasions, on the very same grounds that was DOW. He held it to be inconsistent with the British Cc;, stitution, which was indissolubly united with the church e g ` e ta Main - tient : he held it to be inconsistent with the first e a ' ao plea of that Constitution, to admit those within its tale ` lit were actuated by religio us f ee li ngs o f t h e most bi tter hostt ba to the Church bf Englanda He agreed with the lion. igen' for Corfe-Castle in thinki n g th a t u they should give their woof tion,to this Sill, theywould depart from the ancient ptinciPle.v. the Constitution. , The ,ConStitution was built upon this Pr? ; , ta ciple—to exclude 'every thing that was dangerous to its en c. ence, and to guard against any, evil which it foresaw by eb e a c i a ,. ing its operation.they were told to neglect that prinew and to trust-to the securities which had been formed to nen tr !„ lire the effects of the evil apprehended in the present instai:latcy He was not disposed to take that advice, but felt inelineo adhere to the old princle, and not to desert it for the nevi: o His Hon. and Learned Friend behind him (Mr. North), in "• :4e part of his' speech h a d doubted whether any danger could ar ; ' n from granting these concessions to the Catholics; and yet le another part of his . speech h a d a dmitt e d th a t h e did behold sn l n e f t danger, but a dangeraliat was remote in its operation. lje his Learned Friend to reconcile this inconsistency as he c e . - aa r He should merely remade - that the Bill itself admitted ni, there was some . danger. If there were net, why. should itc c ' er , , lain many precautions? why should it c ont a in a special d i e. tificate as to the loyalty of the bishops ?—(Great uproar in o r House.)—The sec ur it ies w hi c h th e Bill gave aga i n st the the prehended d anger were o f t h ree kinds—the first kind was still declaration s i n th e preamble ; the second, tike oaths in the a l t . ' . itself; and the third, the commission formed to controul ru tercourse cf the bishops with the Court of Rome. He WI r ol a.. ceeding to sh ow th a t . th e y were a ll i ne ffi c i ent , w h en the inc r tis ing noise in the House and the cries of "adjourn," eou'r e ed him to desist. Mr. PEEL' complained of the interruption which was i hoa., to his Ri g ht H onoura bl e F r i en d.. Hi s Ri g h t H on . Frienti_ o , had no opportunity of declaring his sentiment s u pon this cl ; : en t tion, and had been anxious to declare them on the PI T a e t. evening. If it should be I.!e opinion of the House that tOeiec was now come a t which th e y ou ght t o a dj ourn , h e h a d no l' a bti ' a rs,s iion to it, pro v id e d' it w e re un d ers t oo d th a t hi s Hon. Fria' in:possession of the House on the next evening. hie!' Mr. BROUGHAM said, 'that from the manner in t it Hon. Members were leaving the House, it was evident Ur e nt. would be very inconvenient to pro c e e d f ur th er a t that inei'A a n` He believed that no disrespect was intended to the Right aiitt Seeretary, but that Gentlethen were leaving the House a'„ tr! moment because they were aware that 'their votes would . I ,l_v i or, wanted on the present evening. He fully concurred lylt n in Peel, that the Right-Hon. Gentleman should be conside re d a . possession of the House when the debate was re-opened ' future evening. 55 0 " It was then agreectto adjourn the debate. Some disco Tor.. arose as to whether theaadjourntnent of it should be till tu;, er san row or till Thursday.' It w.s - at last settled, after a eon A rk tion across the - table between Mr.'PEEL 'and Mr. Buo t;G .- 1 4 3 0 1 ‘ 1 .-- which was inaudible in thegallery, that the adjournmen t ss; be till• Thursday. • a n d The other Order's or the bay' were then disposed of, . House adjourned at'ONia O'Ctocx. , • His Grace the Duke of. H ATOL has dispos"A • " 1 05 his interest is) the Isle of Man, and of cono e patronage. Three general officers of distina t i llo have applied f or th e hi g h es t situation in island.—(Glasgozo Chronicle.) A new private road is now making for the venience of the Archbishop of CANTERBLI Ft 7it t e It is to . run from. Stangate, at the back °'.. o . i t ti Mitre, to the b ac k o f th e S aw y er s. The . 01 4 ' will then ex t en d over the gardens to filinif,"9 Vieth' Palate. It i s s a id th e t ower use d as ,a to the LoHants, and r e f ra Ct or y Ecclesiasticsl 3 o .: come down. This project, under judici° °s rangement, might be made highly advantagiethe to the publi c . Th e wa lk on t h e banks ° cAj oe River will become a beautiful premenoir, t n .o4Pr, it•should border a gay public road leading the g roun d s o f L am b et h P a l ace to th e main r- eil ts It is u n d ers t oo d th a t c o ns id era bl e improY en : oa d, are in contemplation, and that a c arrlageg• r rie a which has been lo ng wan ti ng , will be , ca aa gb from th e f oo t o f Westminster-brifige, Lambeth, to Vauxhall.