The Sun. — London, England, 1856-02-08 00:00:00

louse to refer the patent to a earemitLee of privileges in terms that actually prejutiged tun whole question. (Hear.) `Thus it should be remembered that a committee of privi leges was a committee of till whole house, and there was . _ no greater opportunity afforis - d in such a committee for deliberation than in the bons.: itself. in a committee of , privileges discussion would be impossible. The noble lord :TV2*.io advocated that courss no doubt had resolutior a pre *tired. He (Earl Grey) should like to see those resolu tions in the first instance. He was most anxious to pre serve the dignity of the house ; and, in the present %spect of public affairs, it was more than ever important that the house should preserve its position in the estima tion of' the country. The noble and learned lord had de clined to give them any intimation as to the course he meant to follow, and therefore left the house nothing for it but t o conjecture what that course might be. If the e 0 tutnittee of privileges decided against the patent, would the house refuse to administer the oaths? Lord CAMPBELL—Most certainly. If the committee of• privileges decided against the patent the house would be ground to refuse the oaths. _ _ Earl GREY could not help thinking that their lordships Would be placing themselves in a false position before the country if, on such nice distinctions as they had heard, they were to refuse the writ of summons to Lord Wensley "de. The house might refuse, and the claim be carried to the courts of law, and be there decided is the affirma ivp. Would not the house then be in collision with the Judges of the land ? Or if it went to the House of Corn ation%, would it be prudent for their lordships' house to Place itself in collision at once with the Crown and the Pother House of Parliament? He advised the house before thy took any steps that might lead to serionsconsequences to refer the question to a select committee of their lord- Ships' house, and not to accede to the motion of the noble and learned lord. He was not going to give an opinion then as to the expediency of granting life werages, or as to whether Government had chosen the proper moment for raising the question, but this he did sly, that whatever might ultimately be their decision, it was not a question Which should be referred to a committee of privileges. The Earl of DERBY then rose— My Lords (said the oble earl), exhausted as the subject has been, and ex hausted as your lordships are at this late hour (half -past 1 ?), I shall not attempt to occupy your lordships at any great length, :,s I am sure I c; - 11 add nothing to the arguments which have been urged. Bat I could not iecon- dile it t ) myself to give a silent vote on a question which involves an organic change of a most important nature in the British constitution. (Loud cries of hoar.) My lords, I Cannot reconcile myself to this, having the honour of being here the organ of the great Conservative party, which never more fitly discharges its high duties than when it defends the rights of the constitution against violent en- croachment, whether from the Crown or the people. (Hear.) cannot, my lords, permit myself to remain silent, feeling 84 1 do a deep interest in the question, having myself the honour of being the 14th representative of an hereditary _ _ e arldom in this house—of a family which for 400 years has 1 1 hereditary succession had representatives in Parliament, * when I find that the privileges of this house are attacked by all exercise of the prerogative for which the faintest shadow S i a precedent mu3t be sought for at a period antecedent io that at which the earliest of my ancestor,: had the honour Ci f a seat in this house--(hear, hear)—and when I say the prerogative of the Crown," I entreat your lordships to consider what is really meant by the " prerogative" in these days. (Hear.) We live, my lords, not in times when the Rouses of Lords and Commons have to protect themselves a gainst the capricious and violent personal encroachments of the Sovereign. Those times are long since past and gene. Itet the prerogative, being the power of doing that which is tot contrary to, or not forbidden by, or is beside the law, that is a power not vested in the person who wears the town, but it is vested in the responsible advisers of the Crown ; and consequently, in fact, the extent of the " pre rogative" is the extent of the irresponsibility of the advisers of the Crown. (Hear.) Therefore on every ground we `are bound to see that the prerogative not only is net car tied to an illegal but to an unconstitutional extent. (Hear.) tut, my lords, we are met at the outset by a most strange objection on the part of the noble and learned lord on the Woolsack—an objection which, it it is to prevail, will effec thanes prevent your lordships from discussing the question. The noble lord says, paying a deserved coLspliment to the 'abilities and learning of Baron Parke, that he thought this most favourable opportunity for trying the question. For trying what question ? The question of the power of the Crown to grant a patent of peerage limited to life? slow is it to be tried ? When your lordships propose to Proceed to try it the noble and learned lord turns round t ',Pon you, and says, you have nothing to do with the ques tion, and cannot try it--(hear) —that you cannot deal with -that you cannot even inquire into it ! (Hear, hear.) ' ,.,- I :hat argument has been repeated by the noble earl (Earl 'reY) who has just sat down, who said—supposing the Patent mere waste paper, and that the learned baron ap. Plied to take his seat under the writ of summons alone, Would your lordships (he asked) dispute the right of the ,Down to issue summons ? Why, no, my lords. We admit re power of the Crown to issue such a writ. (Rear.) But se the writ to operate for life, or with remainder? The noble earl says we may argue the question, but this is not ,the time t o do so ; that the time to argue it is when the 'earned baron under the writ has sat during his life, and when his daughter's son claims the succession. Then we are to argue the question whether the learned baron should e 'v'er have been allowed to sit at all ? That certainly would ..e a strange mode of proceeding. (Hear, hear.) My lords, rather adopt the argument of the Lord Chief Justice of t he Queen's Bench : that if the patent had never been Placed before us there would have been a clear right in the Crown to summons the learned baron to this house. Lord BROUGHAM—That would have operated as a creation of an hereditary peerage. The Earl of DERBY— It has been held at all times that c anneoning a person to this house creates a peerage with i nheritance_ But when the learned baron appears at the tanle with a patent from the Crown, creating a peerage ex pressly f or life, and upon that patent presents a writ—the Patent and the writ are to be considered as one instrument — (hear, hear)—and either the patent is void (and the writ With it), or it must be in the power of the Crown to create peerage for life, which wo say is unconstitutional. Then *hat is the time at which we can ever consider the validity of such a patent? We must surely discuss it at the time 'When it is first attempted to act upon the patent, or else for ever after we must hold our peace. (Hear, hear.) But, my lords, of all the extraordinary arguments ever urged, the Most extraordinary is that which has been urged to-night 1 7 the noble earl (Earl Grey), who says—differing alto igether from the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, ''ho tells your lordships that it is no business of yours at all —that we have a right to inquire ; and, indeed, for what Possible purpose can the patent be presented to your lord ships if it is not to be inquired into? But, says the noble earl, what a hasty course of procedure is this ! What pre 'cipitate resolutions you are to be supposed to be about to 'adopt in referring the question to a committee of privi leges " I confess," says the noble earl, "that there is a great deal to be said against the constitutional character of t he act ; I know that meaty arguments may be urged against peerages for life. I think the Government have ,Cot taken the most convenient mode of raising the clues ion ; but do not refer it to the committee of privileges, conveying a preconceived impression that the patent is not I r at& Such a course is precipitate." My lords, Ido not know that it is so precipitate as the course which the noble and learned lord on the woolsack recommended, who said that if your lordships doubted the legality of the Patent the proper course would be to pass a resolution de dazing its illegality. My lords, of the two courses I think You have taken the more moderate course • because, cer tainly, if you were to declare the patent illegal, and that Ureter it Baron Parke would have no right to take his aeat, the noble atd learned lord would have denounced it ss u'inonstroua proceeding, without inquiry, without exa mination of documents, without consideration of prece dents, to pass a resolution declaring the illegality of the Patent. (Hear, hear.) My lords, I rather desire to have the question fairly considered and argued at the bar by counsel, bringing to bear on it the highest degree of legal learning, and sifting the subject thoroughly, before this house pronounces a decision upon it. But the noble earl (Earl Grey) having, to ray extreme surprise, con demned this course as `• precipitate," what was the course which he was prepared to recommend ? To refer the ques tion to a select committee ! My lords, all I can say upon that, is that as the noble lord moving the committee Would regularly have the right of nomivating it, such a conrse would scarcely be so respectful to the Crown and certainly not so much in accordance with precedent and authority as that which is now proposed, to refer it to the committee of privileges. There have been analogous cases in which reference has been made to the committee of privileges. In the reign of Charles 1., in the year 1627, , 1 % Patent of precedence was given to a certain earl, and this coils° refused to acknowledge it, and referred it to a corn- Mittee of privileges. We have here a patent which we be lieve to be unconstitutional ; we do not call upon your lordships at once to pronounce it so; but we say, do not recognise it as legal until it is inquired into. My lords, having listened to the arguments and precedents which have been adduced, I have come clearly to the conclusion that if there be one case, there certainly is not more than One, in which the Crown has granted a peerage for life, to ;), party who has ever ever sat and voted in this house, uti- Liss the patent had the previous assent of Parliament. And, my lords, I have no respect for precedents as to prerogative going further back than the revolution of 1688. And I confess that I should net have thought any reference to finch precedents very consonant with the spirit or the prin ciples of a Whig Administration. (Hear, hear.) If, my lord s , we are dealing with a question of a prerogative of She Crown, which has never been attempted by any minis ' ter under the House of Hanover—which was never ventured upon by any Sovereign of the House of Stuart; or under the unscrupulous rule of the Tudors—if you have to go back to the times of the Plantagenets for precedents, my lords, instead of one precedent you could produce a dozen precedents of such a period—they would not be worth Waste paper. (Loud cheers.) I hold, my lords, that although the right to create peerages for life may, 200 Years ago, have been within the scope of the law and the Prerogative of the Crown, yet that it is at variance with the whole practice of our form of Government, and uncoil etitutional in its bearing upon the character of this house. I am prepared to lay it down as a proposition which is incontrovertible, that from the earliest period the very essence of the peerage has been that it should be here ditary. (Hear, hear.) I do not mean to say that in the early days of our history that principle was always kept closely in view ; but this I contend for, that originally the great barons of the realm, holding their privileges by tenure of laud, enjoyed the right of hereditary succession, and were in consequence of their tenure entitled to sit in Parliament. The issue of writs summoning the barons to their seats in the legislature first became necessary in the reign of Henry 111., immediately after the battle of Eves ham, by which the Crown, after a long series of civil wars, succeeded in crushing the rebellion of the barons. At the period of which I speak the necessity of attending in Par 'liament was felt to be an onerous burden, and not a privi lege; and the indifference felt by the barons with respect to receiving the writ renders any precedents which may ho • drawn from their times unworthy of practical considera tion in dealing with the question under your lordships' notice. But, in after times, when the constitution began to be better understood, what was the rule of law laid dow n upon the subject of those writs? Why, that not withstanding the absence of all words conveying an inheri tance in the body of the writ, the fact of sitting in Parlia ment under the writ conferred an inalienable right of sitting in Parliament by inheritance. The Crown took upon itself to issue patents limiting and altering the cha • raster of the inheritance; but, I believe, that in every instance in which a patentee) operated it did not proceed from the Crown alone, but from the Crown acting under the advice and sanction of Parliament—(he ar , hear) — and that the Crown, with the assent of Parliament, could do this of course no human being will vanture to • deny In the celebrated case of the peerage of the Duke of Cornwall, which was settled in a manner opposed to ;` THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 8, 1856. they did it without inquiry, and after the Lord Chief Justice of England had declared that it was not legal. Their lordships then divided. Contents—Present Proxies Non-contents—Present 59-138 53 Proxies 52--105 Majority 33 Their. lordships then adjourned at a - quarter to three o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour. NEW MEMBER. Air. BAINES took the oaths and hi, seatfor Leeds. FIRST READINGS. _ The following bills were severally read a first time : Forest of Dean Central Railway, Wandsworth and Put ney Gas, Poole Railway, Bawtrey Roads, London, Til bury, and Southend Railway (Extension), Bagnalstone Railway, Dewesbury Water, Cork Bridges, and Perth Harbour. Mr. SPOONER presented petitions for the repeal of the Maynooth grant. Mr. HADFIELD presented a petition from the clergy of Sheffield against the opening of the Crystal Palace on Sundays. THE RIVER WEAVER. Mr. THORNELY moved for an account showing the amount due for principal debt and interest on the River Weaver on the sth of April, 1844, with an account of the annual receipts and expenditure in each year, and to the latest date; distinguishing the amount annually received for tonnage from other incidental sources of in come and from money borrowed ; also distinguishing the annual expenditure for ordinary maintenance and rqmirs from the expenditure on account of debt and interest, the purchase of land, and erection of churches thereon and er.dowing the same, or other like incidental expenses, and from the amount annually paid over for the use of the county of Chester (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 115, of Session 1844).—Agreed to. Mr. V. SCULLY moved that the Treasury minute made with a view to improve the postal and passenger communication between England and Ireland, under the act of last session, be laid on the table of the House.— Agreed to. Mr. PH[LLIMORE gave notice, that on an early day he should call the attention of the house to the in justice of assessing the clergy to . parochial rates. Mr. MUNTZ said that on Thursday next he should call the attention cf the house to the present monetary system of the country with a view to a remedy more in conformity with the present time. Mr. LAYARD gave notice that on that day fortnight he should call the attentiott of the house to•the report of Sir J. M'Neill and Colonel Tulloch relative to the army in the Crimea during last year. Major REED gave notice that on an early day he should move that the franchise be extended to all who were assessed to the income tax, not being aliens. Mr. WISE gave notice of his intention to move, on ) the 1•t of February, for an inquiry into the consular establishments ahreafl. Mr. ADDERLEY asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why there had been no report made by the Inspector of Prisons in the Home district for five years past ; and when any report, such as the act requires annually, was likelyto be made by that in spector ? Sir G. GREY said there were a number of those reports in arrear, and he had written to Captain Wil liams on the subject. . He had taken measures to have those reports made more regularly for the future. SUPPLIES TO THE ARMY. Sir J. FERGUSON - said the report of the Commis sion of Inquiry into the Supplies of the British Army in the Crimea having appeared, ho nished to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to make any change in the direction of that department ; and whe ther it was their intention to place that department of an army in the field under the charge of a superior min. tary officer, as recommended by the said commission ? Mr. F. PEEL, the suggestion of the bon. member is a very valuable one, but it has not yet been determined to act on it. Mr. MAGUIRE asked whether it was the intention of Government to introduce a bill in the present session for the better regulation of the Medical Charities of Ireland ? Str G. GREY said it WAS not the intention of Go vernment to introduce any bill on the subject this session. he would have given them his support. He enumerated some of the expenses of the ecclesiastical courts, which were drawn ofteu from poor families, widows, and orphans. It was a duty the Government owed the country to re lieve them from those harpies, and allow them to prove their wills without trouble and at a trifling expense. Oa the SPEAIZEIt putting the question, and some re marks by several hon. members, leave was given to bring in the bill. or 30 years in the service before they attained that rank, if they were ever permitted to attain it all. (Hear, hear.) He had heard with pleasure that these monstrous abuses were at length attracting the attention of the Admiralty, as they had long since excited the indignation of the public, and that a proposition for the benefit of old officers of every rank was _ _ under consideration. He hoped that this measure of reform, which, be had no doubt, had been conceived in a benevo- lent spirit, would also be carried outin au efficacious manner, and that no officer would be permitted to remain upon that active list who was not ready to serve his country. (Rear.) Nor was it the . officers only who had now to complain of the neglect and ill-treatment. The seamen also had their griev ances, 'and these were of no trivial character. During the last war, even when the service was disgraced by " impress ment," a practice which had now happily disappeared, bounty money was freely given to seamen joining the navy. We were again at war, but no such inducement - was' now offered. When the Baltic fleet first weighed anchor it might have] been able to cope with the Russian, but most certainly it was not competent to meet on equal terms the navies o' France or of America. (Hear, hear.) Of this he was assured by naval men of the highest autho rity, and among others by an officer on the flag list, who told him that had the command been offered to him he should have declined it through fear of loosing his reputation. On board that fleet there was " lubbers," dockyard-riggers, a few revenue servants, and some Coast Guardsmen, whose presence there had injured one service without benefitting the other. There were landsmen, too, whom the Admiralty fondly imagined they, could convert into skilful mariners in a single year. He wished the First Lord of the Admiralty would go to sea for a year, if only to discover how little of a seaman he would be at the end of that period. (Hear.) It was merchant seamen that were required to man her Majesty's fleets. To such he would offer a liberal bounty ; but be would not givo sixpence for a landsman, for the true qualities of a seaman were only to be acquired in youth. let us retrace our steps—do justice to the navy, or we should rue the day when another war might come with a morn active naval Power than Russia. As to Russia as a naval Power, she was not to be compared with other countries which might be our enemies. If her fleet in the Baltic, where we last year had 100 penants waving over steamers, had ventured to come out, we should have blown her ships to atoms ; lut if, unhappily, we should be at war with America, w'io had onae 20,000 English seamen in her ser vice, what steps must we take to go', them back ? Sailors did not willingly turn their backs upon ther country; but their very calling gave them general ideas of nationality, which illiberality on our part would convert to our prejn . dice. In the last American war it was notorious that many British seamen fought against their own flag, and yet we took no steps to prevent a recurrence of such lamentable conduct. It must be remembered that, although the • United States was comparatively unpre pared for naval war at present, seeing how, rapidly we had constructed a fleet of gun-boats, it could not be doubted but that in two years' time she could produce amost formid able fleet. During Lord Derby's Government a commission was appointed to inquire into the subject of manning the navy, which even in time of peace recommended a small bounty to be given, but no attention had been. paid to the suggestion. He charged advisedly the late First Lord of the Admi. alty with an act of injustice and want of judgment in not having at the beginning of the pre'sent war procured good seamen, as he might by the offer of a small bounty such as was given to soldiers. He thought, too, that an endeavour should be made, when once we had good seamen, to retain them in the service by giving a small additional premium of, say 1./. a year for each year beyond a certain number. That plan of 'progressive pay was adopted in the civil service, awl there was no reason why it should not be acted upon in the naval and military services: Then, again, although the allot ment of prize money had been lately altered, lie thought it might be still more extended in the seaman's favour. With regard to punishments, without discussing the propriety or necessity of flogging seamen, he was clearly of opinion that no lash ought ever to fall on the back of a petty officer, and, unless for mutiny or some other grievous offence, no A.B. should be flogged. Then, again the articles of war were con tinually read on beard ship, and although they were not acted upon in all cases, yet were sufficiently alarming to sea men who heard the penalty of death awarded to one-half the offences mentioned in them. lie would suggest that an altera.- tion should bo made in that respect, and that the penalty of death should only be attached to those more serious offences for which alone it was now inflicted. He was sorry he was not able to read to the house the articles of war, and the naval instructions, but he had applied for the latter to the Secre tary of tho Admiralty, who, no doubt, acting upon the direc tions of his superiors, had refused to supply him (Captain Scobell), a naval officer and a member of the house, with a copy. He could not think that was a proper way for the busi ness of the country to be carried on. The Admiralty was a despotic government . In despotism Russia could scarcely equal it. He knew it well. A naval man - Must mind what he wrote and what he said. He could not give an open opinion upon au open question. It was a harsh government, and all naval men felt its harshness at some period of their service. (Hear.) He knew nothing himself of the last three First Lords of the Admiralty, but the only man who ever received him kindly was the late Duke of Clarence (William IV). His Royal Highness was a naval man, entered into naval feelings, knew something of the service, and, if he dismissed an appli cant without granting his request, at all events he received him kindly and feelingly as an officer and a gentleman. He (Capt. Scobell) had nothing to reap from this motion. He was a retired officer, and could get nothing by it. But his strong. est feelings were bound up in the welfare of the navy and the advancement of his brother officers and brother seamen. If there were not sufficient grounds for inquiry so much the better for the authorities ; but they knew that, if the com mittee were granted, officers would come forward and give evidence of the harshness and coldness exhibited by the Ad miralty towards the great body of naval officers for a very long period. He (lid not blame the men, who met in Cabinet Councils and exchanged favours, the East against the West Indies, the Customs against the Army and Navy, but lie was convinced the sooner the system was destroyed the better for our country and our countrymen. Before they negatived this motion, they would, he trusted, take it into their most serious consideration. The civil service and the army had received abundant attention. The navy had been passed over ; yet, if we were invols ed in a war with a naval country, and did not maintain our supremacy of the ocean, the glory of Eng land would have passed away, and all the armies of the world could not restore it. With these observations he committed the case of the navy to the hands of the House of Commons, with the hope that they would do it justice. Admiral WALCOTT seconded the motion, observing that the army, the Ordnance, the Commissariat, and the civil service had been subjected to the censorship of admini itrative re form, and he saw no reason why the navy should form an exception. He concurred, speaking .generally, in all the views and opinions which the honourable and gallant gen tleman had so ably and temperately promulgated, and, if he differed, it _was to such an inconsequential extent that he would not trouble the house with useless repetition. He claimed for the navy a better system of administration, and would suggest that the power of the First Lord of the Ad. miral'y to give employment, promotion, and recommenda tion for decoration should not be exorcised without consul tation with the naval officers of the board—so that their acquiescence or dissent should be recorded. That would im part confidence to the navy, and conduce to the benefit of the country. To neglect the services of elder officers was not the way to encourage younger officers, or .to provide for the fu ture. Experienced officers volunteered for employment in hazardous enterprises and on unhealthy stations, and received a cold and curt reply, couched in terms of dull routine and indiscriminating formality, entirely devoid of sympathy or consideration, so as to prevent further application and break the spirit of honourable ambition, as if the application wore not only unwelcome but impertinent, and the inherent desire of advancement were a subject of reproach. Many a gallant officer who would have earned distinction under his Sove reign's colours had been driven to seek amore considerate re ception in the mercantile marine. Many a gallant officer from the culpable and cruel disregard of his claims, had returned to nis family with crushed feelings and a broken spirit. (Hear, hear.) He wished not to be misunderstood, he wished not to incur prejudice unfounded or suspicions which he did not de serve. He neither disparaged the services of any officer nor grudged him better fortune. He merely intended to raise his voice against a system of partiality—irreconcilable with jus tice and opposed to sound policy. Unless a naval officer had the advantage of high connexions or could command political interest, or could evoke the compassionate sympathy and con sideration of the members of this and the other House of Par- liameut, he might hope and hope oa for ever. Was such en couragement worthy of a nation that professed to love inde pendence of character, and boasted that the doors of advance ment were open, without consideration of birth or means, to the highest and worthiest of its sons ? He repudiated the phrase so often quoted, of fighting under " the cold shade of the aristocracy." He only bespoke impartiality for good and meritorious service, remembering, as he did, that coronets had received a lustre from the names of Mulgrave, Howe, Hood, St. Vincent, Exmouth, Coll:ngwood, and Nelson. He might not live see it, he might aot, and he cared not to benefit by the tardy recognition of right, but he felt assured the day was close at hand when claims would be impartially consi dered, and the one beaten path to employment, promotion, and recommendation to the Sovereign for honours would be by good and meritorious service. He would only add the words of Mr. Burke, which were most appropriate—" Of all the services under the Crown there is not one that will less bear tampering with than that of the navy ; it is the last that can be supplied in the event of emergency, and any failure of which brings down and draws upon the country the heaviest of all consequences." In conclusion, the gallant admiral de dared his intention lo follow the hon. and gallant member (Captain Scobell) into the lobby, should he divide the house upon the motion. Sir C. WOOD also complimented Captain Scobell for the temperate tone as well as for the ability with which he had brought his motion before the house, but denied that he had shown sufficient grounds for the appointment of the committee which he had asked. It was very true that if abuses did exist the committee that had been asked for would point out the remedy ; whilst, on the other hand, if there were really no abuses at all, the Admiralty would be proved to be blameless by the inquiries of such committee. But unless abuses had been proved to exist, the house would not properly discharge its duty if it appointed the committee for which the hon. gen tleman asked. All the recommendations which were made by the committee to which the hon. and gallant gentleman (Captain Scoball) hacl alluded had been carried into effect by the Board of Admiralty. The hon. and gallant member co►n plained that there had been no sailor on the committee. That was very true ; but that committee was appointed to inquire mat only into the management of the navy, but also of the army and the artillery ; and there was not a single soldier or artilleryman upon that committee. It was, therefore, not correct to represent that any undue favour was shown to any branch of the public service upon that occasion. The hon. and gallant gentleman said that the committee in question had recommended in their re port that a further inquiry should take place into the admi nistration of the affairs of the navy. Now, what was the fact ? Why, the committee simply recommended farther inquiry into the whole system of contract and dockyard labour. He (Sir C. Wood) said last session, and he now repeated it, that al though it w .s no doubt beneficial to the public service to ap point committees of that house to inquire into alleged abuses, the existence of which there, was strong ground for suspecting, yet groat detriment would necessarily be done to the public service by the house continually interfering with the adminis tration of the public departments by the appointment of com mittees to overhaul their proceedings. There could be no doubt that uniformity in the administration of the public de partments was rendered very difficult by the frequent change of the Ministry; but it would be more just to all parties, to permit the Government for the time being to continue unin terrupted their mode of conducting the public departments , unless there was good reason for supposing that the public interests were damaged by them. The hon. and gallant gentle man made it a matter of complaint that promotions in the navy were much less frequent than they were some years ago. Many promotions were undoubtedly made at the close of the last war ; but the object of the Government in making these promotions was, not so much to reward past services, as to enable the many officers who had been employed during the, war, but would not be required when the navy was reduced from 140,000 or 150,000 to 42,000 men, to retire on an in-' creased half-pay. The navy was still reduced in 1835, to 26,500, including men and officers. 1,000 officers were promoted at the end of the war, but the fleet was thou so reduced that A the common law of the land, it is recited in the charter that that opposition could only be justified upon the ground that it had the sancticn of Parliament. There was a remarkable case in the reign of Richard IL, in which a patent was granted by the Crown creating Thomas Woodstock Bail of Bucks, without the consent of Parlia ment ; but in a few years afterwards a new patent was made out, setting forth that this step was taken for the security of the title of the grantee. It was laid down in the reign of Elizabeth that a writ, without the insertion of any words upon the subject, should be held to convey an inheritance ? Now, on what principle was that law passed ? Why, upon the principle that, from the earliest p rind, the right of inheritance lias been deemed an essential consti tuent of the peerage. (Hear.) Well, then, we are now called upon. without exercising any authority upon the part of this house, to assent sub silentio to the introduction of a principle which, practically, has not been recognised in this country for a period of 400 years. (Hear.) This I say, my lords, is a matter which we ought not to pass over in silence. I believe the Crown cannot constitutionally exercise the powers which her Majesty's Ministers now claim for it. I believe it can do it with no more justice than it can exercise the authority to appoint a high com mission court, or any other power which indisputably be longed to it, and which has never boon abrogated. (Hear.) Now, as to the question of expediency, I may obseiva that whether it be expedient that Baron Parke should sit in this house or not is not the real point at issue in the pre sent case. The question is, whether it is expedient that the Minister of the day should have indisputable authority to swamp the House of Lords to any extent by the creation of peerages for life. (Hear.) It is all very well to tell me that the present is an unobjectionable exercise of the power. By so much is it the more dangerous. (Hear.) The most perilous consequences have resulted frou some precedents which in themselves were perfectlyunobjectionable. (Hear.) If it be the opinion or the Minister of the Crown that it is desinkble for judicial purposes that there should be an ad dition to the number of law lords in this house, let him bring down a specific plan upon the subject, so that both the country and Parliament may know the precise limit to which his authority is to be extended. (Hear.) I find it laid down in Blackstone that the constitution has eats.- bliehed certain outworks which tend to preserve the per sonal security of the subject—his personal liberty and his rights of property ; and among these outworks ho enu merates the constitutional powers and privileges of parlia met t, and the limitation of the King's prerogative by cer tain boundaries which it is impossible to mistake. (Hear.) Now, can we say that the prerogative of the Crown in the case before us is defined by boundaries of that description? (Hear.) My lords, if the prerogative of the Crown is to be fixed, it must b 3 fixed by the practice and custom of parliament. (Hear.) The case of Lord Somers has been referred to, in support of the view of the prerogative of the Crown taken by the noble and learned lord ; but the high merit of that individual raises in my mind the strongest augument that such was not the view of the Government of the day. The noble and learned lord, and those of your lordships who commenced this discussion, carefully con fined the question to the assistance which was iu the pre sent instance to be gives to your lordships in the exercises of your legal functions ; but the noble lord who has just sat down does not confine the argument to peerages given to members of the legal profession, but says that men serving with distinction in the army and navy, and men distinguishing themselves in science, may sit in your lord ships' house, and exercise a co-ordinate jurisdiction. The noble earl is logical, and says that if you admit this claim of. Baron Parke, the Crowa will have power to grant peer -1 ages for life in other cases. (Hear.) The noble and learned lord says that the idea of swamping the House of Lords is visionary. Bat, nay lord', although your lordships' house may consist of 4 0, in how many cases has it consisted of less than that numb. r ? (Hear.) And will the noble bid tell me, not that 50 or 20, but even 9or 10, peers taking their seats in this house might not altogether turn or alter its determinations or its votes? (Hear.) Do you think, if this principle be admitted, that a minister might not sup ply the place of a deceased pear by a nominee? But itis said, Them is no danger, because there is the action of public opinion." My lords, I say that is a most dangerous doc trine. (Hear.) What it mean, my lords? Why , that the minister must have' with him the opinion of the House of Commons. (Hear.) The minister may create these peoraaes. We shall be told that he is acting in deference to the House of Commons ; and, then, indeed, my lords, would the House of Lords become a mere cipher. (Cheers.) I say, my lords, that if you give power to a Minister to create one life peerage the hereditary character of this house is gone—its usefulness and its independence are gone. If you allow this to be done you had better at once abrogate your functions, and do whatever the House of Commons may bid you. My lords, you may have a weak Minister, and if he depends ou a majority of the house, he may obtain it by appealing to the worst feelings of that house, and overbearing your lordships, obtain a mporary renewal of power. (Hear.) You cannot argue this case on the ;merits of the individual. Whatever may be his merits, the precedent must inevitably lead to the intr. , - duotion of individuals less worthy, and to the degradation of your lordships' house. (Cheers.) If you admit the principle that the Crown may create peers for life and pleasure, subject to the opinion of this house, and of the other house of Parliament as to qualification—l say that you introduce a principle fatal to the privileges of this house. If you do so, I -say yen have signed the doom of the House of Lords. (Loud cheers.) It may not come this year, or in the next five years, but if you admit this principle, my belief is, that with the heredit try peerage will be sacrificed the hereditary monarehy—(cheers)—and that although the monarchy might be upheld by the per sonal virtues of the individual possessor, it would fall with the very first breath of popular feeling. (Cheers.) To suppose that such a state of things can exist is con trary to all reason, and contrary to all expediency. (Hear.) What, my lords, have we seen in our colonial p assessions ? They sought to imitate the House of Lords by nominating persons for life, and they concluded that by making peer ages for life they would be independent of the Minister of the day ; but the consequence has been that every . colony has declared against the nominee system. Having dis carded the (principle in your colonies, will you seek to introduce it at home? Au Upper House may rest either on the hereditary character of the house- thus giving it a stability and firmness which, in my conscience, I believe no other institution can possess—giving the peer an inde feasible interest in your house—not one here to-day and gone tomorrow ; it may rest on tliat principle which the British constitution has fixed fcr centuries, or it may rest on the elective principle. (Hear.) But between the two questions of an upper chamber and an elective chamber there is no alternative; and if you seek to build your rip per chamber on any such foundation it will crumble to pieces in your hands. (Loud cheers.) My lords, I hope we may not live—l hope our sons may not live—to see this great country degenerate into a republic, however well suited such an institution may be to other countries ; but of this I am sure, that if you desire to retain the heredi tary monarchy and the constitution of this country, you must cling to the one main essential—the hereditary cha racter of the British peerage. (Great cheering.) I, for one, my lords, will not consent without a struggle to see that peerage swamped. (Renewed cheering.) Ido not say what course I shall think it my duty to ke when this committee is, as I hope it will las, appointed. I wish to act with re g ard to that committee with a firmness becom ing your lordships' house (hear) ; but I will not consent to the principle that the Crown has the power of calling peers to this house by a mere exercise of its prerogative, and that we are not to discuss that prerogative. (Cheers.) Above all, I will not consent to deprive ourselves, by our own act, of a power which the House of Commons will not part with, and which, I trust, your lordships will not part with—the power of judging of your own privileges, and of being arbitrators and interpreters of the right as to who shall have the honour of 'a seat in your house. (Great cheering.) I concur in the motion of my noble and learned friend, .and admire the ability and temper he displayed in introducing it to your lordships (loud cheers) ; and as I think the proposal he has made is the most moderate and constitutional course your lord ships could adopt, so I trust that, without any refer ence to party feelings, either on the one side or the other, it will secure the approval and assent of a consider able majority of your lordships' house. (Loud cheers.) _ The Duke of ARGYLL insisted that the danger to be apprehended from the creation of life peers was not greater than it was at present. In a published work of the noble and learned lord opposite (Lord Brougham) to which allu sion had already been made, be found it stated that the Government in 1832 was prepared, if it had been found ne cessary, to create :as many as 80 new hereditary peers ; but the thing was to be done in a manner that would make as little permanent alteration in the Upper House as possible. The list was framed so as to consist chiefly of eldest sons of peers, Irish and Scotch peers, and persons with no fami lies. Yet such was the objection of the Ministers to re sort to such a step, even during the reform excitement, that they could hardly have been persuaded, under any circumstances, to adopt the course he had described.. He (the noble duke) was satisfied that the objection of most of the peers present who were inclined to support the motion was directed not against a moderate exercise of the prero gative of the Crown in the creation of life peers, but to its abuse. He would, however, remind the house that there were many valuable prerogatives of the Crown and privi leges of the people that might be so abused as speedily to bring the constitution to a dead lock. Lord BROUGHAM was of opinion in 1832 that the creation of new peers was a step not only justified, but under the pecu liar circumstances of the case required; and from that opiuion, after the lapse of more than 20 years, he saw uo reason now to depart. He retained the opinion that the difficulty of the Government at that time would have been smoothed by the creation of life peerages. But that was the very reason which made him say that life peerages were highly inex pedient, and he had no hesitation in declaring them most dangerous to the constitution of the court. (Hear, hear.) It was dangerous not after the manner of the gross opera tion of the carving knife, but by the subtle instilling of poison. When there was a danger of a close division in that house, would not the creation of ten or twelve life peers be highly convenient, but at the same time dangerous instru ment in the hands of the Minister. Another objection to the creation of life peerage was the dependent character of them. That was the objection made to the creation of life peers in France, and the answer was that they were necessary to sus tain the power of the Crown. With regard to the legality of life peerages he was inclined to think that he should decide in favour of their legality if called ou to decide judicially. But his noble and learned friend opposite said that be should decide without hesitation that they were illegal. His noble and learned friend at the table (Lord Lyndhurst) was of opinion that they were legal. But, notwithstanding all this variety of legal opinion, his noble and learned thou(' on the woolsack put the great seal to this patent without even con sulting the law officers of the Crown. In matters of far less moment it was almost a matter of course that the law officers of the Crown should be consulted, not for the purpose of be ing bound by their opinion, but as a matter of prudence and etiquette. Tbeir lordships were now placed in these grave c ircumstance that they were called on to decide on the le gality or illegality of these lire peerages. This was not the place, at all events, for finally deciding on that grave ques tion. They were called on now to come to a decision that peerages for life were consistent with the law. If they re jected the motion of his noble and learned friend they decided the question in favour of legality, and they could not draw back ; whereas, if they carried the motion, they only took time to inquire. (Hear, hear.) And in what circumstances were they going to decide on this—the greatest of constitu tional questions that had ever arisen in their day? Were they going to do so on this night, and on one n i g ht' s be bate ? Would it not be more prudent to postpone their de cision, especially as the Lord Chancellor on the woolsack stood alone amongst the law lords in voting for the rejection of the motion. (Hear, hear.) He had no patience what eVer with those who asked them to decide the question on the personal merits of his noble and learned friend Lord Wensleydale. No one had a higher opinion of the talents, the learning, the judicial experience and judicial services of his noble and learned friend than he (Lord Brougham) t o 1 which he might add a personal acquaintance of between 40 and 50 years. He would say nothing in the argument of the result of additional legal force. It did not exi s t. They could call for the assistance of the equity judges 4 they thought proper. If they decided this question now without inquiry, it would be recorded in after years that CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS. Mr. H. BERKELEY said he wished to ask, seeing that the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act expires this session, and that a strong and general opinion prevails As to its inefficiency, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to bring in a bill to renew that act, or to submit its operation to the inquiry of a select committee ? Lord PALMERSTON said it bad not been deter mined by the Government whether they should bring in a bill to continue the act or'refer the subject to a select committee. When it had been determinei what course should be pursued the boast: would be informed on the subject. MR. CURTIP. Mr. H. BAILLIE asked the First Lord of the Trea sury whether he had any objection to lay on the table of the house the correspondence which had taken place with the Prussian Government relative to the employ ment of agents for the enlistment of troops, and in re ference to the arrest of her Majesty's consul at Cologne upon the charge of being engaged in such proceedings ? Also, any communications which may have been made by the authorities of the Hanse . Towns with reference to the subject of enlistment ? Lord PALMERSTON had great objection to pro duce the correspondence alluded to. The transaction had been amicsably.settled ; and the correepoudenne. if it 'were produced, could lead to no good results. With respect to the second question, the Government had no correspondence to produce. COMMUNICATION WITH IRELAND. Mr. CAIRNS asked the Secretary of the Treasury whether, in the contemplated postal arrangements with Ireland, the Treasury had considered the requireventa of trade in the provinces as well as 'in Dublin ; and whether any Communications on the subject had been made to any of the Chambers of Commerce except that of Dublin, or whether any such communication would be made before any tender was accepted ! Mr. WILSON said communications with the Cham ber of Commerce of Ireland had taken place, and the best attention would be given to the subject as regarded the provinces. Mr. CAIRNS asked the Solicitor-General for Ireland whether a bill to amend the law of bankruptcy in Ire land would be introduced by Government, and when ? Mr. HORSMAN would nest week lay a bill on the table relating to that subject. • ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. Mr. COLLIER, in pursuance to his notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill to transfer the testamentary jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts to the superior courts of common law and to the county courts. He said those courts were condemned more than twenty years since, and which had been confirmed by subse quent commissions and committees, and the unanimous voice of public opinion, and yet they had been allowed to continue in their present, state. Fifteen bills bad since then been introduced to transfer the jurisdiction of these courts, yet they had all failed, and he must confess he approached the question with some superstitious feel ing that these courts were destined to live for ever. Three years since he called attention to this question, and was induced to leave it in the bands of the Go vernment to remedy the evils complained of. In the ensuing session a bill was brought in by the Govern ment to transfer the jurisdiction of these courts to Chancery, but some how or other it failed ; in the following session another bill was introduced, giving the jurisdiction not exactly in Chancery nor out of Chancery, but which also failed. In the third session he proposed to re introduce the original motion he pro posed, and which would deal only with a portion of the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts, that of testa mentary jurisdiction—letting the jurisdiction of these courts in matters of divorce and of church discipline stand over for the present; but he would observe that the law of divorce was a disgrace to the country, and ought no longer to exist. It was, in fact, a law for the rich, and not for the poor. The testamentary jurisdic tion of the Ecclesiastical Courts was an usurpation from the old county courts of the country. The ecclesiasti cal courts numbered 372, and were as motley, gro tesqte, and disgraceful a lot of courts as could belong to a civilised country ; and so were their judgments. In the change he contemplated no new tribunals would be required, the existing tribunals of the country being suf ficient. He would give jurisdiction to County Courts in matters under 501. In Scotland, 30 years ago, the Consistory Courts of that country were transferred to Uhe Sheriff's Court, and he bad not heard of any incon• venience arising therefrom. In America and India there were no Ecclesiastical Courts, yet men in each of of those countries made wills, and their property passed without any trouble or difficulty. He would have each County Court a district for registering those wills, appointing some of the present regis trars to the office of registrars, and that a will should be proved in the district where the tes tator died. No attorney nor proctor need be em ployed in proving undisputed wills ; any m an goi n g there should be furnished with a form w hi c h b e could fill up with the assistanc e o f the registrar, and all those wills should be deposited in Somerset House. When the property was under 3001., and any disputes arose, the county court should have legal and equitable jurisdiction ; but where the property was above 3001.,_ jurisdiction might be referred to th e Chancery Courts, Common Law, or a N ew Court. He thought there was no necessity for new tribunals to be established, because the Crown Law Courts had been relieved of some of their business, owing to the establishment of the County Courts, and could well undertake this. If it were transferred to the Chancery Court a new Vice- Chancellor would he required, but he thought that expense need net be gone to. At present, the Com mon Pleas had not sufficient business to fully occupy its time, and he thought this jurisdiction might be given to that court. He was in favour of the jurisdiction being removed to the common law courts. These courts should decide the validity of wills. After some further remarks on the details of the bill, the hon. gentleman moved for leave to bring in the bill. Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion. He referred to the scandalous conduct connected with the patronage of these courts, and also to the oppressive working of these courts, and the number of proctors, surrogates, &c., connected with their machinery. He said there were but 160 proctors in the kingdom whose interests were so anxiously watched over by the upholders of the present courts. He regretted the Government bad not brought forward a similar measure to this, Had they done so NAVAL ADMINISTRATION Captain SCOBELL moved for a select committee to inquire into the naval administration, and the lists of officers, pa tronage, promotions, and retirements, and the efficiency of the service in all the grades belonging to it. He hoped the committee would be granted, because if it reported in favour of the existing system the result would be satisfactory to the Government, whereas if it came to the conclusion that that system was harsh and cruel in its operation upon a large body of officers, come remedy for it ought to be devised by the house. He had brought forward this question last year, towards the end of the session, when it was got rid of by a little amicable mamouvring, in a manner which, in his opin ion, was an insult to the navy, and the First Lord of the Ad miralty had then made a speech, some of the errors in which he would take this opportunity of correcting. Oue expres sion used by the right lion. gentleman was ! that " the sub ject had already been most fully considered by as able a corn_ mittee as ever -was appointed." In the first place, it was e'ght years ago since that committee sat ; the report and evidence occupied about 1,000 pages, and, excepting the official men, he supposed that not mere than half a dozen members, of whom he was one, had read that most volumin ous affair, which' referred not merely to the question to which he would now confine himself, but to dockyards, con racts, shipbuilding, and a thousand things of that sort. No doubt it was an able committee, but there \vas not a single naval man on it; and he must say that, with reference to the no mination of committees to inquire into naval matters, the naval members ,of the house were used very ill. At the conclusion of their report that committee recommended further investigation, and therefore his present motion was not without justification. The next thing the First Lord of the Admiralty said on the occasion referred to was, " that the House of Commons was apt to take at one time a view totally different from what it did at another ; at one time it could net do enough for the members of the naval profession ; great promotions were asked for, and afterwards perhaps the house complained of what had been done." That was all declamation ; the. conn . .ry liked the navy, and wished it to have fair play, and would refuse it nothing in reason. What the country wished was, that one set_of men should not be pushed on at a fast rate, and another set at a slow rate, but that the advantages and promotions should be fairly and equitably apportioned. (Hear, bear.) The right bon. gentleman went on to ask, " Did his hon. friend want ships to be built for the sake of employing officers ?" Certainly not ; but when ships were built he wished every man of skill and merit to have a fair chance of commending, and not merely the men of great family and Parliamentary influ ence. The right hon. gentleman also said that if any one would devise a better system of promotion than the present he would be a great public benefactor. Well, he offered himself to be in this respect a public bene factor. One remark made by the right hon. gentleman was, that if it were desirable that officers should attain. the rank of admiral at an early period of life, it would be indis pensable that young officers should be promoted for distill- guished services. Who could object to such an arrangement ? The complaint was, that officers were promoted without dis tinguishel services. Again, the right hon. gentleman stated that, "if they t oolc the aristocratic names in the navy it would be found that, with the exception of Lord Dundouald, they were almost a elusively on the retired list," but he (Capt. Scobell) would show that, besides that noble lord, there we...e a great many aristocratic names that partook largely of the favour of the Admiralty. Taking only the ac tive list and the admirals, lee found a Fitzroy, who from the time of being a lieutenant :to becoming a post-captain passed only 4 years ; a Percy passed only 2 years ; a Cadogan 5 years; a Itadstock 3 years ; a Crofton :33 i years ; a Berkeley 4 years ; a Dundas 3 years ; a Stopford 3i years ; a Grey 4 years, &c. He found on .the same admirals' list men of the names of Brown, Dillon, Hornby, and so on, who from lieutenant to post-captain had passed respectively 10, 11, and 16 years. Taking 20 of the last-made admirals and 20 of the slow-made admirals, he found the average time of the former from lieu teuaut to post-captain was 3i years; and of the latter 12 years and a fraction. The reference to Lord Dundonald's name put him in mind of that gallant officer having won his honours not because of his aristocratic name, but at the can non's mouth, and no finer career than his was to be found in the British navy ; and yet that noble lord had on a late occa sion been neglected, iu not being allowed to explain before the Admiralty his plan for the benefit of the country. Taking • the active list of commanders the same result presented itself. He trusted that to correct these evils in the navy recourse would never be had to the system of sale and purchase, as had some years ago been suggested, The constitution of the Admiralty was most faulty. In four years and a half there had been four different First Lords, and it certainly was im possible that any service could be properly governed under a system of such rapid changes. Three of these, too, were civi lians, and they, of course, for some time after their appoint ment, from their ignorance of professional details, mnst have been perfectly unable of themselves to transact much of the business brought before them. The noble lord at the head of the Government some time ago, in speaking of the army, said it ought to be commanded by a soldier, and that if the patronage of the army were dispensed by any one sitting on the Treasury bench the number of complaints would be very much multi plied. What was good for one service was good for the other, and if the army ought to be commanded by a soldier, why should not the navy be commanded by a sailor? Why was that system of distributing patronage which, if it were to be adopted with regard to the army, would be open to such great objection to be persisted let in the case of the navy. The manner in which the patronage in the navy was dispensed was anything but satisfactory ; many promotions ware made from motives of mere favouritism, and he was afraid that there were some officers—not many certainly—who had got on so rapidly from one rank to another—land that, too, in a time of peace—that they were really not fit for the situations which they now filled, Such rapid promotions were unfair to the officers themselves, for they did not give them time to learn their duties. The late Sir G. Cockburn, who was 17 years at the Admiralty, when he died left behind him a paper on the government of the navy, in which he denounced the constitution of the Board of Admiralty as • most uusatisfac- tory, and the least efficient for the purpose that could possibly be devised. A noble lord in the other House of Parliament (the Earl of Malmesbury), when speaking on the subject of army reform, declared his conviction that if the administra tion of the army were assimilated to that of the navy it would become a hotbed of political jobbery. The right hon. mem ber for Kidderminser, too, and the Secretary of the Admi ralty had both strongly denounced the evil effects of the pre sent corrupt system. Fortified by these opinions, be thought he had made out a case for the inquiry for which he asked. He had also received numerous communications from naval officers who were personally unknown to him ; and he could assure the First Lord of the Admiralty that, however well the favourites with whom alone he habitually came in con tact might be satisfied with the existing state of things, the feelings entertained in regard to it by five-sixths of the officers of the navy were those of disappointment and chagrin. To these suffering men an inquiry into the state of the navy list and the system of promotion would give the greatest delight. From a return which ha obtained towards the close of the last session of Parliament, ani the results of some further investigations, he had compiled some important facts in regard to the different classes of officers which 'he would state to the house. In the year 1803 we had in com mission 167 sail of the line; and there were in the naval service 120,000 seamen and marines. The number of admirals was 99, and out of these most of them were fit service. At pre sent we had in commission 44 sail of the line. The number of seamen and marines in the fleet was 50,000, and the number of admirals 9.4 on the active, and 215 on the retired list. He did not object to the existence of a retired list ; but he did most strongly object to the system which obtained as to put ting officers upon that list. Since 1850 there had been made 45 acting admirals; and 141 had been placed on the retired list. What he objected to:was, that a man should be put upon this retired list because he had not served 6 years as a post captain ; although lie might have been asking for employment all the time he had been on shore. The result of the present was, that of 4 officers promoted to the rank of admiral last year one, whe was made an active admiral, was 70 years of age, while those who were only between 5) and 00 years of age were placed upon the retired list. The remedy for this state of thines would. be to cou n t a man ' s y ea r s o f serv i ce not in one, but in all grades ; a course for the adoption of which there was the greater reason, because it was in the lower ranks that a man learnt the most of his profession. (Hear.) Of post-captains he might tell much the same story as he had related of admirals. There were upon the list many men bearing aristocratic names who had get on exces sively fast, while the holders of such common names asJohn son, Kidd, or Brown got on equally slowly. In the year 1847, 1848, and 1849, 50 officers were made post-captains, of whom 13 had served as commanders only from 2 to 5 years, while 17 had served in that rank from 32 to 17 years, and of these 14 had medals. In 1846, 100 captains were allowed to retire. They had most of them been some 30 years or more commanders, and their half-pay was 10s. nday. They retired with the rank of a lieutenant-colonel in the army, and an additional 6d. a-day pension. A marine officer of similar rank obtained, upon his retirement, a pen sion of 14s. a day. Was that just to the navy ? There was also another list on which the favourites wore placed, and when on that they received an addition of 2s. or 2s. 6d. a-day to their pension. In the years 1847, 1848, and 1849, 80 officers were promoted to the rank of commanders. Of these 43 had served as lieutenants only from two to seven years, while 23 had served from 12 to 44 years, and of these 11 had medals. There were now 549 officers on the commanders' list, of whom only 196 were employed. Some of the boatmen were shelved on this list and never got any further. A mei morial had been addressed by the commanders to the Admi ralty, and he hoped that it would receive the serious consi deration of the First Lord. The lieutenants were also a most numerous budy of officers, and the state of their list was most disheartening. He know that nothing could be done to im prove the condition of the old men; but he wished to avoid the continuance of such a state of things for the future. He could mention many cases in illustration of the heartless treatment to which naval lieutenants were subjected, but no case was more glaring than that of Mr. John G reene , a mos t deserving officer, who, having entered the service in 1800, and distinguished himself by his gallant bearing in s e vera l en gagements, was appointed to a lieutenantcy in 1809, and, never having received a single step of promotion from that hour to this, had the honour of being a lieutenant at the pre sent moment (Hear.) There were in a similar position some 600 or 700 other officers—men whose promotion bad been brought to a deadlock, and whose service as lieuten ants ranged from 30 to 50 years. (Dean) Last session he called the attention of the house to the fact that there were then afloat 12 sub-lieutenants, each of whom had on an average been a lieutenant for 30 years. Ho was happy to add that the allusion he had made to their cases had not been without its effect, for all of these officers had been since promoted —a circumstance which he had learnt with extreme gratification, and for which much credit was due to the First Lord of the Admiralty. (Hear, hear.) W ere it no t that he feared to trespass on the attention of the house, he could read a list of officers whose service averaged from 50 to 55 years each, but who, not having family interest or po litical influence, had failed to obtain that advancement to which from their merits they were entitled. It was to be hoped that the claims of these ill-used gentlemen would re ceive the attentive consideration of the Admiralty, and that, with a step of.promotion, an increase of half-pay would also bo awarded them. By an order recently issued, from the Horse Guards, military officers were permitted to retire with a step of r snle, and, under certain circumstances, they even received the promotion after their retirement ; but nothing of this kind was knoWn in the navy. He trusted that it would not be always so. Patronage was still, as it e rer had been, the bane of the service. Start two half-dozen of mid shipmen from the same point, and it would be found that one half-dozen would have reached the grade of post-captain in the course of five or six years, while the °them would be 20 became impossible to give employment to any buta few of those officers, At - the end of 1817, the number of commanders were 800, but the number in actual ser- vice was no more than - 40. With regard to the number of lieutenants immediately a'ter the close of the last war, he begged to observe, that so great Has the number of those that were not in actual service, that the last on the list would be 82 ye till of age before they could be employed, assuming that • they were 25 years old when promoted. When the hou. and gallant gentleman contended that a large class of officers to whom he had referred ought to be employed, he (Sir Charles Wood) must say that the idea was preposterous. The services of those hon. and gallant officers were not, in fact, wanted, and ships to employ them in were not wanted. Stiefi was the reduction of the force within the last quarter of a century. There was no denying the fact, as his hon. and gallant friend had stated, that the number of old officers on the list of lieutenants and commanders was very great ; but; with regard to the vast propertion of them, it would be quite impossible to employ them ; and, with regard to the number of old officers, it would bo quite impossible to give them em ployment. When his hon. and gallant friend said that there was no promotion given to officers of the late war, in pro portion to their claims, let him state to the house that, in the fifteen years after the last war, the officers in the service were promoted just as they would have been on the war establishment. Now, let them look to the state i f the list, as it stood fifteen years after the war. In the year 1810 there were 850 post-captains and lieutenants on the list, and there were no means of employment for more than 50 of them; and there were 800 captains, for whom there were no means of employment in the service. The number of officers kept up, however, at that period was as 'Argo in pre portion as if the country was at war ; and the number of officers employed, it should be borne in mind, ought always to bear a lair proportion to the demand for their services. And if they were to take the number of officers on the list at the present moment, they would find that of 99 admirals, there were only 18 employed ; that of 396 captains, 140 were only employed ; that of 569 commanders in the service, 200 only were employed; and that of 1,200 lieu tenants, there but 900 employed ; and taking any time, ex cept the time of war, the number employed-would be more than ample for any force that the country could require. Within the last few years the 'number of captains employed varied fro u6O to 80. He might now state, in reference to the claims and opportunities for promotion, that they hail no:, been met so much by actual employment as by a disposi ti,m to confer just rewards. The hon. and gallant cfficer, however, said that the promotions that had taken plae:! were partial and unjust. (Hear.) Now, if they admlted the principle of " selection," he did not think that they could, on that ground, say the promotions were governed by partiality. If they would confine the question to promotions by seniority bow few young officers could they employ ? Taking promo tions by selection, they would, in alt probabilit y, b y th a t process, get the best possible officers. He did not stand up for selection ; but they must have a rule. Of course such a mode was open to the charge of partiality—(hear) an 1 such I a charge as that night be readily made, and not easily passed over. He, however, defied the whole of the s !rvice not to be open to it. He had now more experience in the duties and working of his department than he had last year ; and he could scarcely say how many applications lie might have had made to him for one appointment. He, of course, selected a man. His hon. and gallant friend on his right might take one man for the appointment, and be, of course, could not complain of the selection. His lion. friend on his left might select another man, and he could not complain of it. But when he reflected, lie must be allowed the right of selection as to who might be the most desirable and fit officer for the duties of the appointment. His honourable and gallant friend said that they had a long list of old admirals in the service, and that there were very few young admirals. That was very true. The list was gradually increasing ; but let them observe that they could not possibly have yo .mg admirals unless they promoted young commanders and young lieutenants. If they promoted young lieutenants by seniority, they could not have young admirals. The hon. ani gallant officer said that the Admiralty were chargeable with the exercise of political patronage. He could safely say, that in no promotion or appointment which he bad made, had be been in the slightest influenced by partiality, or by any influ ence of political patronage. Since he had been at the head of the Admiralty he had not promoted more than ten officers to captaincies ; and be now further asserted, that since he had come to the Admiralty, he had not made a single ap pointment or promoted a single officer unless on the recom mendation of the Naval Lords of the Admiralty. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that promotions were giVen more by aristo cratic influence than upon grounds of merit; but that really was not so, and upon inquiry it would be found that there was no just ground for such a charge. It had been said that Lord Dundonald, Lord Cadogan, and Lord Anson were ne glected officers ; but that was not so. About those hon. and gallant officers' ability there could be no question ; but there were other considerations, and those were as to the general efficiency of officers, for the duties of command. He must say, that he knew not of any duty which the officers ap pointed in the Crimean war had to discharge that they had not performed in a most efficient, a most gallant, and distin guished manner. (Hear.) Unfortunately, they bad not ships to contend with. But take the officers from Sir Ed. Lyons, who was the soul of the expedition, to Captain Lyons, in the Sea of Azoff, that there was nothing that they had been ap pointed to do that they had not performed in the most gal lantjand brilliaut manner. And he mast say that it was highly to the credit of the right hon. Bart., Sir J. Graham, who preceded him at the Admiralty, that the appointments and arrangements he had made were, in all respects, most satisfactory, and had redounded to the honour and credit of the country, and the glory of the British navy. (Hear, hear.) He would, with the permission of the house, follow the hon. and gallant gentleman through the different ranks of the ser vice as he had gone through them, with respect to pay and promotion. The committee recommended that there should be a permanent number of officers of each rank, which should not be exceeded, but there were some, such as Lord Dun donald, whom he would be sorry to see removed from the ac tive service list, although he was above the age which the hon. and gallant officer had named. Even in the time of war we do not employ more than 18 admirals, and lie did not think the number was too large. Lookiag at the captains, he (Ed not think 350 was too small a number. By increas ing the number of persons whom it was impossible to employ, they were only increasing the number of complaints and heart-burnings. The larger the number of persons from whom they had to make selection, the greater the discontent, and, therefore, he thought that the recommendation of the committee of 1848 was exceedingly wise, that the lists should be limited, and that there should not be too many on the ac tive list. He confessed that he knew of no better test than non-employment ; for, although a man mast learn his profes sion in early life, he did not think that an officer who had been serviug as captain should be placed precisely on the same footing as one who had not so screed. A man to be an admiral ought to have had some experience in command ing. Experience as lieutenant was not sufficient ; he ought to have served as captain. The hon. and gallant gentleman had said that there were donttlesssome promotions for merit, but that they were a small proportion of the whole. But what were the feats of the case ? The number of promotions made during the last two years were 66 promotions to the rank of commander and captain, of whom 31 were " First Lord " promotions, that was promotions of deserving offi cers by seniority, and 35 were " Board" promotions, viz., for special services. A large number of these special see. vices were performed by lieutenants, 142 of whom had been made commanders, 32 of them by the First Lord, and 110 by the board. (Applause.) That was, 110 were clearly and distinctly promoted for special acts of gallantry, and the' other 32 were those old and deserving officers whose case the hon. and gallant gentleman has this evening brought before the house. He quite concurred in the observations of the hon. and gallant gentleman as to the language of the memo rial; it was quite natural that people should ask for what they want, and press their claims to the utmost of their power. It was impossible, however, to promote all deserving cases, because they could only promote one comenander and one captain for every three taken off the list. The hon. and gallant gentleman complained of the list of retired captains, but the fact was that there was only a difference of 6d. a day in their pay; one was 10s., and the other 10s. 6d. ; so that, although they rewarded deserving commanders, by promoting them to captains, they gave t hem the rank, but only an extra 6d. a day. (Hear, hear.) He proposed to add 150 to the .eniority list. Let the hon. and gallant gentleman look over the list of retired captains, and point out one single man who had not claims on the ground of service. (Hear, hear.) He defied him. (Applause.) The commanders' list had caused more anxiety than any other. There were 1,2'10 lieutenants, and only 450 commanders, and there were, therefore, large numbers of lieutenants pressing for promotion to that rank. But while almost all the lieutenants were employed, not more than one-third - of the commanders were. They had promoted 140 commanders last year, the greater part of them for dis tinguished service. Sixty-six were promoted the year before, but the number of commanders promoted last year exceeded by twenty the whole number of commanders employed iu sea going ships. Though he felt bound to reward lieutenants, by making them commanders,, for gallant actions, yet when they became commanders the chances of active employment for s eme time were small. They therefore removed ono diffi culty, but created another. (Hear.) He had employed com manders in a class of vessels hitherto commanded by lieu tenants with a view to diminish the evil. It would be seen, therefore, that in the rank of commanders, it was necessary to provide large means of retirement. The complaints of the hon, and gallant gentleman were unjust, because many lieu tenants were made commanders at an advanced age, and there was, therefore, no chance of their finding themselves at the top of the list till it was too late in life for them to expect active employment in that capacity. The list of lieutenants the hon. and gallant gentleman desCribed as " frightful and disheartening ;" hut it hatibeen greatly reduced by the addi tions to the retired list and promotions to commanders, a rank very much eoveted by them, although not bringing any great accession of pay. The list was thus brought to about the limit recommended by the CoMmitteo of 1848. As teethe charge made against the Admiralty of large and indiscri minate admissions into the navy it was unjustifiable. It was gratifying to give a complete and satisfaCtory answer to such a statement as that, although he must confess it was not a little provoking to have a statement made in that house, by 'a gentleman of the hon. and gallant member's authority, which was altogether untrue. If the admissions had been ' ifkire than were demanded by the requirements of the ser vitt, they would have been overdoue with mates and mid shipmen. Bid the lieutenants were only 1,200; so that the mates could notlave been diminished by being promoted to lieutenants. Time fact was, the numbers had been studiously kept down ; and the mates, midshipmen, and naval cadets, were 600sbort of the number recommended by th e coneniV i e:. So much for the charge of indiscriminate a d m issions. I had foreseen what had been adverted to, vtith respe i ct to had,tleye redundancy of officers, should peace ensue; and t ley therefore, kept down the numbers, so far as they coul A d n d o o th s e o r , cons istently with the exigencies of th e se r vice. point was the difference between co t oseartteheyey and th p e ui n .su av ed y with respect to bounty. The was not to give bounty, bat to improve the condition o f the seamen. They lead improved their condition permanently, by increasing their pay, improv ing their food, and i n every way they could. Large bounty had been attended in the army with evil instead of beneficial results ; it had been found unprofitable and demoralising. What were the comparative results of the two systems 7 They were short of men in the army, while the navy was full. Could they have a bettor, proof of success than this? The hon. and gallant gentleman said it was wrong to take the coastguard and riggers; but they were engaged as such under the exprcas condition to be taken when wanted. They were employed on this condition when discharged from sea-going ships. There could he no in justice, therefore, in carrying out the conditions of their em ployment. The great difficulty the navy had always to provide for was to be able, at any time when such a step might be necessary, to make large additions to the number of men, and to make such additi ons ra pidly. They must, therefore, always have at hand numbers of men who could be called at once into active service when wanted. A measure was nearly ready which would materially improve the condition of chaplains, naval instructors, paymasters, assistant-surgeons, and engi neers, The latter was a very deserving class of officers whose condition had hitherto been somewhat anomalous. This was a delicate and difficult task ; for if advantages were given to one, they must be given to all, or dissatisfaction would be excited. The hen. and gallant officer opposite said that there was a large portion of business to be transacted by the Board of Admiralty which could not be done properly by civilians. Now, that was not so, for although it was quite true that he ' knew nothing of the management of a ship, he was perfectly capable of taking a part in transacting the business which came before them. In point of fact 9.loths of it couldbetransactedby i thalami. There was, for amule t the ripply of galtmeat for tho navy, and it was not necessary to have the opinion of a naval officer exclusively on that subject. Now, it so happened, that that very morning he took down the number of questions which came for discussion before the board, and only referring exclusively to naval matters. There was the qucstdon of pro viding stores, of buying different articles, of vict ualling, of medical necessaries, and so on. So that as he had said, nine tenths of the business was exclusively of a civil nature, and on which a civilian was quite as well qualified to give an opinion as any naval officer. Of the six lords composing the board, four were naval men; the first lord was a civilian, but On no occasion, or on any subject which affected the naval ser vice, did he take any step, without consulting his naval col leagues. With regard to promotion, it was regulated by seniority and selection—and in his opinion it was by selection alone that they could get the ablest men to command their ships and promote the efficiency of the service, With re spect to himself, in making promotions he was regulated by no private or personal motive whatever ; and so many applica tions were made, that in making one selection he ran the risk of, probably, offending 900. But, if he discharged his duty to the best of his judgment, as he knew and believed he had, be bad the satisfaction of knowing that he was guided in every act by the most conscientious motives. That the affairs of the navy had been well administered, he might appal), to the navy itself; at no time, nor during any former war, were ships, officers, and men in a state of more complete and thorough efficiency, and ho was perfectly sure, notwithstand ing all that had been said to the contrary, that that was the opinion of the country at large. (Hear, hear.) Captain BOLDER() would support the motion for the ap pcintme at of a select committee, though he did not agree with the hon. and gallant officer who brought it forward, in regard to manu:n; the navy. He believed the navy at present was better mac ne I, better paid, and better fed, than at any former period in their naval annals, They were now better paid than in the mercantile marine, and, therefore, in that respect the greatest credit was due to the Admiralty. He approved, how ever, of the motion for a committee of inquiry, because if the system be good it would redound to the credit of the Admi ralty, if not, it ought to be corrected, The commission to which the right hon. gentleman referred bad made many re commendations, and all of them were carried into effect with respect to the army, but nothing was done regarding the medical department of the navy. That was one of the reasons why he should support the present motion. Everything had • a beginning, for now the Admiralty had not only increased the pay of medical officers in the navy, but directed they should have cabins, so that by a little perseverance they would obtain more. Their pay at present gradually increased up to tau years, but from ten to twenty they re eived no increase at all. Now that was not right or proper. They ware highly educated men, and entered the service to gain rewards and honours. To retain them in the service ought to be the first object of the Admiralty ; but by the present system they were excluded from receiving additional pay after serving ten years. Then let them look at the question of rank, as be tween those in the army and navy. An inspector of hos pitals in the army ranked as a brigadier-general, while a naval inspector of the same class only took rank as a lieutenant. colonel. Now that was a distinction which he contended ought not to be made. Then again he found the other day that iu couferring decorations on those who had distinguished themselves in the Crimea, Dr. Hall, as Inspector-General, was male a K.C.8., while another doctor, who held the same rank iu the navy, was only created a C.B. In the army the Inspector of Hospitals was made a K.C.8., as he had said ; five hospital surgeons were advanced to the rank of C. 8., yet only one medical officer was simi'arly honoured in the naval department, although in all the great actions iu the Crimea the naval medical department had rendered, in those bloody fields, the most important services. (Hear.) He thought the appointment of a comniittee would be productive of great good, and he should, therefore, support the motion. Admiral BERKELEY said, the hon. and gallant member for Bath had picked out, from a list of 300 names, some dozen persons belonging to the aristocracy, whose promotion, he said, had been gained by interest and favour, and not by merit. It was not pleasant to speak of one's self, but he would ask the hon. member for Bath to look at his (Admiral Ber keley's) services, and see if he had not won his promotion by those services. So far from his having any interest iu those days, his father was a staunch opponent of the Admiralty by whom he was promoted, and his father never asked a favour in his life. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman had also al luded to a friend of his, the Hon. Richard Dundas, who com manded the fleet in the Baltic last year, and was pleased to point him aut as one who had gained his present station thrcugh interest, and not through his own merit. Now, he most positively asserted, and he could appeal to the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle for confirmation of the state ment, that no one evenasked for the appointment. He was the person who recommended the Hoe. R. Dundas to the right hon. baronet (Sir James Graham). The right hon. baro net took great pains to trace the career of the gallant admi ral. He obtained the opinions of men of high rank, among others that of Sir William Parker, as to his fitness for the ap pointment, and Admiral Duudas, in consequence of character and not from interest, was appointed to the command of that fleet. (Hear.) He wished to say only one word with regard to the manning of the navy. He regretted that naval officers should stir in that matter. They ought to know they were treading on very delicate ground with British sailors. The fleet had been manned without bounty, and supposing bounty had been offered, without embargo, it would have been of no use whatever. In the last war, when recourse was had to bounty and press, an embargo was laid on merchant ships riot to go to sea until the men of war were manned. The effect was greatly to embarrass trade. No such plan had been resorted to during the present war, and he was happy to say the fleet, at the present moment, wits thoroughly manned. When it was remembered that in two years we bad increased the number of men for the navy by 24,000, he thought little fault could be found that bounty bad not been given, and the mercantile marine thereby distressed. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and' gallant officer had quoted some words which he had used on a former occasion when a &miler mo tion was before the house. Sitting on the Treasury Bench he was just as anxious for his profession as when he was an iacle pendent member. Tnere was a time when, like most naval officers, lie thought tke Secretary of the Admiralty ought to be a naval man, but lie could only say, with 12 years' expe rience of the working of the Admiralty, he had completely changed his opinion. Without wishing to disparage the two naval officers who in that period had filled the office,,he must say he never wished to see a naval man as Secretary to the Admiralty again. Gentlemen talked of, but hardly knew what were . the duties of tue Secretary to the Admiralty. There was nothing naval in them, and if they knew the con stitution and working of the board, they world perhaps change their opinion, as he had done. In conclusion the gal lant admiral said he had risen to make these few remarks be cause lie was convinced his gallant friend would not wish to say anything to annoy Admiral Dundas, and would not again assert that he (Admiral Berkeley) had been pushed forward through interest, and interest alone. (Hear, hear.) Mr. LINDSAY said that after the remarks of the gallant admiral, and of the hon. hart. the member for Carlisle, the house might think the present system of the Admiralty was perfect. Ile, however, differed from that opinion, and thought that on the contrary strong grounds had been shownin favour of the motion. It had been proved that when they had pea c e, as _ _ he hoped they soon should have, they would have more men on the active list, than they could employ, thus creating general disappointment and general discontent among the officers thus placed in inactivity. Look at the list as it stood now. n July last they had 2,225 officers, from flag officers down to lieutenants, and of those only 1,232 were employed, and that in a, time of war. Such a fact as that alone would justify this inquiry. But he had also looked at the cost, and he found the country was paying for 993 officers on theactive list, but who were necessarily inactive, a total of 186,000/., and to those on the retired lists total of 298,2721. , making a total sum paid in time of war, to active officers anxious for employment, and dis contented, audjustly so, at not receiving it, and to those on the retired and half-pay list, of 488,358/. He considered, therefore, that this was an important subject and worthy of inquiry. At the close of the last war—and what then took place ought to act as a warning against the close of this war—in 1817, the total number of seamen and marines voted for the year was only 19,000, and yet the number of active officers, from flag officers down to lieutenants, was 5,891. The result na turally was the greatest discontent, and to show how far that discontent went, he would remind the house of the anecdote of the naval officer, who, after hanging about the Admiralty, without getting any employment, went its his gold-laced uniform and swept the crossing in front ;of Whitehall. Of course, he very soon got an appointment. The right hon. member had denied that promotion went by influence, and 'had spoken of cases being picked out. To avoid that charge, he (Mr. Lindsay) would take a single case, that of the nine admirals who in 1842 waited on her Majesty when she visited Portsmouth, and he found that the united services of those admirals, from the time they left the midshipman's berth to their post rank, when they were considered lit to command a frigate, was just 2.1 years, while, if he went to the flag ship at Portsmouth, in the year pr,ceding the Britannia, he found four lieutenants, whose joint period of service was 56 years, and on board the Victory he found seven lieutenants, whose joint service was 131 years. Be was surprised that the Government would resist an inquiry into discrepancies like these, and, therefore, he trusted the house would grant the very reasonable motion before it. Mr. BASS supported the motion, believing that promotion the navy was given, not to merit, but to interest. He re- membered hearing a conversation in the precincts of the house, after a celebrated dinner at the Reform Club, at which the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham) was present, and on that occasion some distinguished member of that house said, " Now it is all out. We always thought promotion in the navy was given only to Whigs and Radicals, and now Sir James Graham has confessed it." (Laughter.) If such a be lief prevailed in that house—he did not mean to say it was well founded—at all events they should inquire whether it. was true or not. He could not conceive that there could be any substantial objection to the motion of the gallant Admi ral. He should therefore support the motion. Sir F. BARING said it was a difficult thing to get appoint ments in the navy, and lie bad found that in experience as First Lord. His practice was to caxry out Lord Auckland's list, the prior First Lord, but he could not avoid making selections ; for Lord Auckland was in the habit of writing very his owng o too kind letters, which di d not amount to positive promises. (Laughter.) He m ade alterations in favour of old and meri torious officers. Be must say general accu sations, as a First Lord, he thought that of all parsons t h e First Lords had the least justice done them. For himself, o c u i f v ht c ha s ve b ep e bu s ui a cig n hs d etr h f i re n we e .a v i e; lave Sir o au l d C. aN say pp that poAi RtEme h us e : ata lnew biu thfe hid rthe drat, d hopedo motives as o t there was his own motion upon the operations of the Baltic feet that night, but it was then too late. When, however, he found the First Lords of the Admiralty get up, one after the other, in praise of themselves and their own doings, _ . he could not resist giving the house some idea of his own:exi perier.ce on that subject. He was no little surprised to find the First Lord of the Admiralty quote a letter of his (Sir C. Napier's) own ; but that-letter was written thirty years ago, and was not applicable to the)wesent time. His letter was written thirty years ago, when the navy was in very bad order. But this was taken from " Junius." When they saw bad ships built, add promotions made from political influence, things were 'bad indeed. He had not been able to find the passage, butte would search for it. • The right hon. baronet the First, I;ord of the Admiralty (Sir C. Wood) said, that of the promotions made by First Lords one appointment in three was given to old and meritorious officers. He had thought such au assertion perfectly absurd, for he knew the First Lords used to give the appointment to whom they pleased ; but if it was true that the system was c hanged, he begged leave to congratulate the right hon. baronet and the house upon it. But if he meant to say that be never made Th thing rela e right hon. any promotions without consulting the . Naval Lords, he should have thought that monstrous ; but if that, too, wastrue, true, he was delighted to hear it, and ho p ed they would s tick to it. It would do more justice to the service than an ything teir e else t t o ha t t h c e o b u o ld un b i c y another th th ou at gh w t as of g . ive T u b t e o re se w am as en. bart. (Sir C. Wood) said it was very ticklish grou n d , t o touc h upon, and, for that reason, he (Sir C. Napi er ) th ought i t ought to be settled at once. The right hon. bart. said be had formerly brought forward a bill providing that double bounty should be paid to seamen, but he bad pointed out the folly and danger of that bill, for the men who were in the - service at the time would receive a bounty of 4,0001. or 5,000/. a year, w h ereas the object that Conld be kept in view was that a bounty was useless, unless their position was changed into one of actual warfare. He (Sir Charles Napier) was opposed to that bill ; and what was the result ? NVhy, that they could not issue a proclamation with out everyman receiving bounty, which would cost half a mil lion o f money; and the consequence was, that no itlau re ceived apythii With regard to the Baltic ace% he bad told He 'lend were --r--