The Sun. — London, England, 1861-06-01 00:00:00

11•••• f destitution which would affect every interest in the com munity. Commerce would be neglected, there would be a diminution in our exports, and a diminution in our means of purchasing corn. He viewed, he would confess, with the greatest alarm the present state of things in America, and he hoped that the Government would adopt some such measure as would enable them to meet the emergency whenever it might occur. The calamity was one which came upon this country suddenly, and it was the duty of Govern ment, as well as the duty of Parliament, to adopt any measure which might alleviate it. No doubt many at • tempts had been made to improve the quality of Indian cotton, and he only wished he was able to say that they had succeeded. From his experience he would say that the best cotton grown there was the indigenous plant. It had, how ever, a short stem. With respect to the proposal that India should be colonised, the distribution of property there was such that colonisation was impossible without affecting the rights of the natives. To his mind the only way to secure a continuous supply was by creating a continuous demand for the article. lie had no desire to alter the present sys tem of land tenure, when he looked to the present state of Bengal, which was on the edge of an agrarian insurrection, where troops had to be moved about to awe the people, and where it was a criminal offence not to comply with the terms of a sealed agreement. When he was at Allahabad he re collected to have seen a small patch of land, possessed by an Englishman, planted with cotton, one half on the old Indian system, the other on the American system, that the natives might see the immense advantages which the one system had over the other. There was a small house ad joining, which contained two rooms. In one room was the machinery for cleaning the cotton, and in the other the visitor was covered with the most beautiful flaky snow. To his mind that little establishment was the symbol of the past and future history of India. (Hear.) There the pre cept was given by force of example, and when he suggested that a similar lesson should be given to the natives in each of the cotton-growing districts, his suggestion was not very favourably received. It was, in fact, met by a sneer. It was now, however, absolutely necessary that they should look forward to a changed state of things, and he was most anxious to know if her Majesty's Government was prepared with any measure to meet the emergency. Earl DE GREY and RIPON agreed with the noble lords who had already spoken that it was impossible to over-rate the importance of this question ; still, however, he was not able to agree with the petitioners is the whole of their prayear as he understood it from the statement of the noble marquis. The noble earl who had just sa t d own as ked if her Majesty's Government was prepared with any measure to meet the probable emergency of a deficient supply of cotton, but he had not intimated the precise nature of the measure which he desired. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he wished to see the native cotton growers set the example which he had seen at Allahabad. Earl DE GREY and RIPON said he was not aware that his lordship had stated that such was the character of the measure which her Majesty's Government ought to adopt. With respect to land tenure, he had no hesitation in saying that her Majesty's Government was ready to encourage English capitalists settling in India, and every facility would be afforded them for acquiring property which could be afforded them without endangering the sources of the public revenue. It was most desirable that the ryots should have every facility to send their cotton to market, but on sound economical principles the improvement of the staple ought rather to be effected by the agents of the merchants, the going about and letting them know the description of arti cle required, rather than by those little model farms recom mended by the noble earl. That course was about to be taken by those deeply interested in the supply of cotton. Government, on its part, was determined to promote means of communication in India ; the railway works would not be again suspended ; on the contrary, they were fast ap proaching completion. The river Godavera was being ren dered navigable, civil courts with the new procedure were being introduced into the different districts of the country, but above all every effort would be made to increase the facilities of transit. The subject then dropped. The other orders of the day having been disposed of, their lordships adjourned at half-past seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER, took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lords' amendments to the following bills were cons. dered and agreed to :—Berwick, Norham, and lslandshires Roads, Huddersfield Gas, and Midland Railway (New Lines). The North Eastern Railway (Castleton and Grosmont Branch, &c.) Bill was read a third time and passed. THAMES EMBANKMENT BILL. Mr. COWPER begged to correct an error in the state ment which he made in reference to this bill when Eit was before the house the other evening. He said that the bill was promoted by the London, Dover, and Chatham Railway Company. He found that that com pany had declined to take any part in, the undertaking, which was promoted by another company. VESSELS AND TONNAGE, &c. Mr. HORSFALL moved for a return, showing the number of vessels and tonnage entered inwards and cleared outwards at the twelve principal ports of the United King- dom ; also the official and declared value of imports and exports for each of the said ports, during the year 1860 (in continuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 450, of session 1860).—Ordered. THE EVICTIONS AT DERILYREAGII. Mr. SCULLY gave notice that on Monday next he would ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland when the Go vernment would fix a day for the discussion of the subject, which was a matter of great interest in Ireland. ALLEGED GRIEVANCES IN THE POST OFFICE. Sir G. BOWYER asked the Chancellor of the Exche. quer when the Post-office report would be laid before Par• liament, and what her Majesty's Government were pre. pared to do for the redress of grievances in the Post-office ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that there were several papers relating to the subject of the administration of the Post-office which were under the con- sideration of the Government. He was not able to give an answer to the question of the hon. member as to laying any papers relating to the matter before the house, but he hoped shortly to supply full information on the subject. presented thit Father Daly had made in regard to this sub- ject were quite unauthorised. CHINA. Mr. DUNLOP, in moving a resolution on this subject, said that there Ras reason to believe that all the papers relating to this subject had not been laid before the house. The hon. gentleman entered at considerable length into the subject, and contended that unless the Government acted with the greatest discretion, and pursued the strictest neutrality, there was a danger of this counts y being in- volved in another war with China. Mr. BAXTER seconded the motion, and expressed his conviction that the Government had not been acting with neutrality. He read some correspondence in support of this statement, from which it would appear that the British and French commanders had openly favoured the imperialist cause in China. He also cited passages from the work published by Mr. Alcock. Everybody that paid attention to the state of China must be aware that the Tartar dynasty was on the wane, and yet it was that dynasty that this country was endeavouring to sustain. Lord J. RUSSELL said he could have wished that his hon. friend who had made this motion would have had the goodness to wait till some of the papers had been laid on the table. His hon. friend knew very well that he (Lord J. Rus sells had said that when they received accounts from China the papers would be laid on the table. They received some papers some time ago, showinghoWmatters were in progress; but as they did not give complete information he thought it better to wait, and he had this evening laid on the table papers to the present date. This he imagined was interest ing to the house and the country, as showing the actual state of affairs. The hon, gentleman who made this motion, and the hon. gentleman who seconded it, might be light or wrong as to what happened two years ago, when Lord Elgin went up the Yangtze .Kiang, but that was not the question before the house. The present was a totally different state of affairs, and what was interesting was what was the case now. Well, the case at present was that Lord Elgin, having given directions that that part of the treaty which said that the river Yangtze-Kiang should be open for trade, made a provisional arrangement with Prince Kung for that pur pose, and Sir James Hope went up the river, and at Nankin he made an arrangement with the chief of the Taepings. 'The noble lord read the agreement, which was to the effect that British subjects were to be unmolested, both in their persons and property; that British v. ssels of war were to be stationed at certain places mentioned, and their com manders would receive directions to interfere in no way whatever, excepting for the purpose of protecting their countrymen,if it were necessrry to do so.] The Commander in-Chief said that British arms would be used to protect British persons and property, but there was to be no inter ference between the Taepings and the Imperialists. That was what he called neutrality. That was the present state of affairs. Now, with regard to what the hon. gentle man said as to what we were doing there. Very often it was found that persons abroad, who did not know exactly what the authorities were doing, wrote home letters objecting to what was going on, and al most always blaming those authorities of whose acts they had not a thorough knowledge. But surely the papers produced here on the authority of Sir James Hope and others, ought to be a more correct narrative of facts than that which was to be found in the correspondence to which his hon. friend had alluded. His hon. friend said that, whatever faults or crimes might be charged to the Tae pings, the imperialists were very much worse. That might be so, but for his part he was much more critical than his hon. friend. He did not say which was the worst or which had committed the greatest excesses. He had never much admired the civilisation, and still less the humanity, of the Chinese, and he had no doubt that great excesses and out rages against humanity were committed both by the Tae pings and the imperialists, and which was the worst he, being in a neutral position, could not say. Our object was to promote our trade as much as possible, and to endeavour both to act a neutral part and as far as we could to preserve peace. The hon. gentleman who spoke last said it was en tirely the fault of the British Government and the British agents that this civil war had not been long ago put an end to. Now he must say he thought it would have required a very large army in order to put an end to that civil war. These Taepings were a very numerous body. They had got possession of several very important cities and provinces. In what way was it possible that we should interfere to enable them to put down the Tartar dynasty, or to enable the Tartar dynasty to suppress the insurrection ? He con ceived it was our duty not to do either the one thing or the other. But here was what Sir J us. Hope said—" Although large bodies of rebels are stated to be, and probably are, overrunning the country in different directions, it is very open to question whether they are in sufficient strength to overcome the Imperial Government; while, on the other hand, no reasonable prospect exists of the Imperial Govern ment being able to suppress the rebels. Therefore it is likely that the civil war will be of indefinite duration ; that the commercial towns of the empire will be destroyed, and the most industrious provinces laid waste." He be lieved that that was an exact account of the state of things, and whatever might be said by those who were admirers of the Taepings, or by those who admired the Tartar dynasty, he considered that when there were large bodies of men carrying on civil war, many of the worst vagabonds and scoundrels in the country would join the one side or the other, not for the sake of promoting either cause, but for the sake of the plunder and devastation which they would be enabled to carry on by taking up arms. That was a great misfortune, but he did not think it was in the power of the British Government, without being guilty of an in terference of which everybody would disapprove, to put an end to it. He did not think that we could properly do other wise than we have done, viz., to preserve a neutral attitude, Mr. DUNLOP—(Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL—A neutral attitude, and that was what was expressed in the article of the treaty, neither to assist the imperialists against the rebels, nor the rebels against the imperialists, but to protect British persons or British property when they were endangered. That was the course which we had pursued in other instances, and he did not see why we should not pursue it with regard to China. His hon. friend seemed to think that we ought to make some arrangement by which, when a ship came to a Chinese port in the possession of the imperialists, the duty should be paid in such a manner as that it should not be required to be paid again to the rebel forces. But that would be a very strong interference on our part. Mr. DUNLOP said a few words in explanation. Lord J. RU SSE LL proceeded to say that the instructions given by her Majesty's Government had been in all cases to preserve the neutral course which we had taken. Sir James Hope had acted upon these instructions, and was endea vouring to promote trade with the districts that were in the hands of the Taepings as well as with those that were in possession of the imperialists. The accounts which the Go vernment received from China certainly betokened an im provement in our relations with both parties. He had that morning read 'a letter from Canton which stated that the customs duties were regularly paid, and that in every diffi culty that arose the Chinese authorities showed a disposition to remove all obQtructions to our intercourse with the natives. Mr. Bruce had arrived at Pekin. He had desired that there should be no sort of ostentation in his reception; for he said that he was merely going back to a place where he had been before, and his entry had been quite private, but every civi. lity had been shown him by the authorities. He (the noble lord) submitted that when neither the Tartar dynasty was strong enough to put down the rebels, nor the rebels to over come the Tartar dynasty, it was no part of our duty to take the one side or the other. (Hear.) He could assure his hon. friend that the views of the Government were in fa vour of observing a strict neutrality. He would not say that there might not be acts of subordinate authorities — very well intended no doubt—which might be chargeable with the showing a bias. Nevertheless, both the Govern ment at home and the British authorities in China would endeavour to observe that strict neutrality which seemed to him to be the proper one for us to pursue. Mr. BUCHANAN saw no reason to think that the in demnity would be withheld ; but he would be a sanguine man that should venture to think the balance of payments would be in favour of thi s coun t r y. We must keep up a large force in China, and it was more probable that we should have to send out money than that we should have to receive it. The question was therefore a very serious f a a p r p o e u a r r e p d o i o c y hi h m a d t ea that w d e e d h t a o d i li e t r e e r a e s d e 1 0 . n u t r o d a i ffi t r e c autly otinees,?howlt with a Power which p raet w ic as all utterly . powerless. The great little connexion with the central mandarins were tw i l n an d li e cG p h e o n v d ern en ni t, e an nt d be m yo anindta ned people by a process called,, insciuteheeziti pay ing it their annual tribute expressive , language of they exacted from the had d t was certain that part of the world, that although competitive examinatibons. "squeezing:' It centuries been in vogue, and although tionS were supposed to be required of the tislualifica darin, all the great offices of the empire were regularly rcan- put up for sale. Pekin had never till lately been full known to the western world, and it turned out on a closer acquaintance to be a very great sham—powerful neither for attack nor defence. The weakness of the imperial Govern ment was shown in nothing so strikingly as in its utter inability to put down the Taepings, who iu the first instance Subsequently - th e y had adopted many things by had been co m p osed of nothing but ordinary bands of ma rauders. which they hoped to win popularity—such as the opinions of the triad societies (whatever they might be), a form of native or Ming dynasty, which had d e throned by the Christianity, though no doubt a vy been degraded one, and the Tartars. If, however, the Government could have brought against them troops as good as those who had opposed the march of the allies on Pekin, they would at once have scattered them to the winds. The imperialists with whom we had made a treaty were the weakest of the parties in China ; and the Taepings were certainly not chargeable with that apathy and contempt of all foreigners which marked the adherents of the Tartar dynasty. One most obvious breach of neutrality was the undertaking into which we had entered to collect the dues for the Tartar dynasty , for what would the imperialists have thought if we had made the same kind of treaty with the Tien-Wang at Nankin which we had made with Prince Kung, and had appointed supervisors of customs for him ? (Hear.) The hon. member proceeded to comment on the custom • house system in China, which he feared would promote smuggling. China had in all ages been the home of the smuggler, in consequence of the peculiar formation of coast, which was completely indented and intersected with creeks and small bays, which offered the readiest means of retreat THE INDIAN NAVY. Sir G. BOWYER asked the Secretary of State for India if any decision had been arrived at with regard to the future of the Indian navy ; and, if so, when it would be made known ? Has the report of the civil finance commission (recommending a wholesale reduction of the Indian navy on economical grounds) been received by Government; and if it was their intention to adopt the report; if a reduction or abolition of the service was contemplated, what course was it the intention of Government to pursue with regard to the officers ? Sir C. WOOD said that no decision had been arrived at on this subject. It was quite correct that there had been recommendations from the commission in question to the effect that there should be a reduction in the Indian navy, and the subject was under consideration of Government. THE FRESCOES OF THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. C. BENTINCK asked the First Commissioner of Works, whether he had been informed that the frescoes in the Houses of Parliament are showing symptoms of decay ; and, if so, whether he would institute proper inquiries to ascertain the cause of such decay. Mr. COWPETt said that the frescoes in the corridors of the House of Commons were in a perfect condition, but in some others of the frescoes there were appearances of dis coloration. There was no necessity for instituting an en quiry into the matter, for the discoloration could not have been produced by the dampness of the walls, considering the space intervening between them and the frescoes. The cause of this discoloration was,. that the artists who exe cuted these frescoes were not, at the time, conversant with the preparation of colours fur these frescoes, but any inju ries that had taken place could easily bo repaired. CHURCH ESTATES WITHIN TILE DIOCESE OF WORCESTER. Mr. G. HARDY asked the hon. member for Kilmarnock why lessees of Church Estates within the diocese of Wor cet,ter, who had made contracts for the enfranchisement of their leaseholds prior to the late avoidance of that see, and held the money ready for that purpose, were delayed in the completion of those contracts or wast of the usual order in Council ; wheher the delay in issuing such order arises from any conflict of opinion upon the meaning of the existing law; and, if so, whether any legislature measure was contemplated to relieve, as soon as possible, such lessees from the same. Mr. BOUVERIE explained that legal difficulties had arisen which prevented the Ecclesiastical Commission dealing with this property as they had done with other church estates. PROPOSED NATIVE COUNCIL IN NEW ZEA- LAND. Mr. ADDERLEYasked the tinder Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the bill passed by the New Zea land LegiskAure for constituting a native council differing, in its relation to the colonial government, from the bill of last session, bad received her Majesty's assent and confir mation? Mr. C. FORTESCUE said that the question had been left in the hands of Sir George Grey up to the present time. He did not think it would be advisable to discuss the subject until it had been considered and reported upon by Sir George Grey. THE VACANT SEATS. Sir G. C. LEWIS announced that it was his intention to introduce a bill text Thursday for the appropriation of the four vacant Parliamentary seats. THE GALWAY CONTRACT AND THE PAPER DUTY. - On the motion for going into committee of supply, Mr. ESMONDE called the attention of the house to a m atter personal to himself and other Irish members. He alluded to the statement made by Lord John Russell last evening as to the Irish members baying been influenced in their opposition to the financial scheme of the Govern ment by the circumstance of the withdrawal of the Galway Contract, which, on the part of himself and other Irish members, he denied in the most unqualified manner. He sal.' also that the statements which Lord Palmerston re- ....---...—.....„. to the smuggler. The opium trade, so long a smuggling traffic, had tended greatly to inoculate the Chinese people with a taste for contraband. The English merchants were chargeable with that traffic, but in other matters they were as fair and honourable a class of men as any in the world. There was one point in which the new customs system would injuriously affect the British trader. The assessors were joint, namely, English, American, and French, and the two latter would have ample means of obtaining an insight into all the secrets of our trades. He thought it was the height of simplicity in our Government to consent to such an ar rangement. Another defect was that the British merchant was to be deprived at all the Chinese ports of his natural protector, the consul. Mr. Bruce had declared that the consul was not to interfere with trade questions, which were all to be referred to himself. Mr. S. FITZGERALD said that a good deal had fallen from the bon, gentleman who had just sat down with which he entirely concurred, but he thought that to the rights and the wrongs of the quarrel between the Emperor of China and the rebels it was not expedient for us to pay much at tention. The complaint of the hon. gentleman, that the British Goternment had not observed the strictestneutrality between the contending parties was, he thought, most un founded. The hon. member said we were guilty of a breach of neutrality in collecting the customs dues of the Chinese Government. But he begged to state that we did nothing of the kind ; the British Government had nothing more to do with the collection of the customs dues in China than it had with the customs duties in France. At the present moment, however, by the regulations of the British authorities in China, an English vessel proceeding to one of the open ports in the possession of the rebels was bound to go into one of the ports in the possession of the Imperial Government, and pay dues to them. Such a regulation as this placed the Bri tish merchant in a very unfair position, and it was quite Blear that sooner or later it must bring us into collision either with the Chinese authorities or the rebels. If the Chinese Government were in a position to compel us to go into one of their ports before a ;went to one of the ports of the rebels we should not be in a condition to complain ; but the fault he found was this, that it should be by a regula tion of our own Government in China that an English ves sel was compelled to go an imperial port before she pro ceeded to an open port in the possession of the rebels. He also thought our position at Shanghae was a very peculiar and dangerous one. It appeared the British troops ware kept at Shanghae for the protection of the place against any at- tack of the rebels. Lord J. RUSSELL—It is for the protection of British property. Mr. S. FITZGERALD—WeII, it came to this that we maintained a force there to protect British interests against —whom ? Against those who were in arms in opposition to the Imperial Government. He hoped the attention of her Majesty's Ministers would be directed to this subject, be cause everybody must agree in the absolute necessity of ob serving the strictest neutrality between the contending parties. He trusted these facts would be attended to by the noble lord, because the doctrine—and the true doctrine— had been laid down that it was our duty to maintain the strictest neutrality. Lord PALMERSTON said he thought his hon. friend who spoke last but one had not sufficiently listened to the statement of his noble friend the Foreign Secretary, with regard to the arrangements between our Admiral and the Taepings for the observance of the strictest neutrality, be cause many of his observations applied to a very different state of things. He really thought they might dismiss that part of the subject, since what his noble friend had read from the papers before the house must have satisfied them we were observing the strictest neutrality between the con tending parties. Then, what had been stated by the hon. gentleman opposite seemed to him utterly unanswerable with regard to the policy we had hitherto pursued in that country. As long as a sovereign reigned over a country, and his authority was in force, especially in those parts where we traded, we had no choice but to regulate our inter course according to the imperial will. If we had said, be cause there was a rebellion in many of theprovinces of China, and because the Emperor was not able to put it down, we should leave British property and British subjects to the mercy of the rebels, there would have been an outcry from one end of this country to the other. The violation of the treaty of Tien-tsin rendered it necessary to have recourse to hostilities, and Lord Elgin, at a great sacrifice to his health, went out, and eventually succeeded in negotiating another treaty which gave full force and effect to all the securities provided for our commerce which the first treaty had failed to make. He thought it was totally unnecessary to enter upon any justification of the Government for having entered into treaty arrangements with the existing Imperial Govern ment of China, or to maintain that having done so was no breach of neutrality between the two contending parties. Mr. BUCHANAN explained that his observations went to show that he considered the imperial authorities the only de facto government. Lord PALMERSTON was glad to accept the admission of the hon. gentleman. On the one hand they had proved that their policy was to maintain the strictest and bona fide neutrality, and it had been admitted, on the other hand, that they were perfectly right in negotiating with the exist ing government. This disposed of a good many of the observations made in the course of the present discussion. But great fault had been found with the arrangement made by which British subjects were employed by the Chinese Government in the collection of their customs. He thought the objections were nut well founded. In the first place, those British subjects were not acting under the authority of the British Government, but were lent to the Chinese Government, and were responsible to the Chinese authori ties for their conduct. It had been complained that they were not placed under the authority of our consuls, but he did not see there was great fault to find in that respect. It was thought best to place them immediately under the au thority of Mr. Bruce. Generally speaking no doubt it was an unusual course that British subjects should be chosen to collect the customs of the Chinese Government, but the fact was that not only could. no dependence be placed on native officials, but we had a direct interest in seeing these customs duties properly levied, because out of them was to be paid the indemnity stipulated to be handed over to England by the Chinese Government. It had been contended that the present system tended to indirect smuggling. Certainly it was a very ingenious mode of reasoning, that if there was any one argument strong against you, the best course was to affirm directly the contrary. That was the course of logic which his hon. friend had adopted, because unless the Government were exceedinglc misinformed, the present sys tem had a direct tendency to check smuggling. (Hear.) It was said the Chinese authorities had been accustomed to receive bribes from the British merchants, and that if they were deprived of those fees they would be compelled to resort to other means to make up the deficiency. No doubt this was a system which tended to establish a regular and legal system of customs, but he could not believe that the fact cf there being a regular system by which the legal dues, and no other, were collected, should induce British merchants to smuggle at other ports where no custom-houses were established. His belief was that this system was a fair and equitable arrangement—that it would be advantageous no doubt to the Chinese Government, but also productive of immediate benefit to us, inasmuch as it would secure to us tie gradual payment of those indemnities which were stipu lated by the treaty of Pekiri> With regard to the point adverted to by the honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. S. Fitzgerald), that British vessels were compelled to go to ports where duties were paid to the Imperial Government, although they might be destined for ports in the possession of the rebels, he (the noble lord) was not aware of any in formation on the subject, but certainly it was one worthy of consideration and inquiry. With regard to Shanghae, everybody knew that it was a most important settlement, and that it had gradually superseded Canton as a great mart of British commerce. It was also well known that towns unfortunately occupied by the Taepings had not afterwards presented the appearance of wealth and comfort which they presented before such occupation, and undoubtedly the occu pation of Shanghae by the rebels was not a thing which the English community at that place would very much desire. He believed it was of great importance to keep a British force at Shanghae, for the purpose of detecting British pro perty in that town from any attack by the rebels. It had been urged that great advantages would arise from the establishment of several free towns in different places on Chinese territory. If we were masters of China we might establish free towns in certain places, but the Chinese ter ritory belonged to the Emperor of China or to the rebels, and certainly not to us, and therefore we had no power to make any such arrangement. All they could do was to Englisht hs, eries act nc t erow pe: itoh i ntanahr Secretary one hsK .ot EnglishaEt State weref soar avail themselves of the privileges which this treaty gave them. They had no right to assume that the Chinese Government had.ceascd to exist, so long as it continued to govern a large and important part of the empire, and espe cially the seaport towns, in which our intercourse prevailed. All her Majesty's Ministers could be expected to do was to take care not to give either party cause to complain, so that so far as hostilities were concerned we should preserve the strictest neutrality. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WHITE thought that the regulation with regard to vessels, ot i h f e pe c r o s n i t s e te n d di i n n g , must lead us into some con iadGFvo tovahres Foreign Government speech c f ft hahi of dsf hadot b h s the e failedry ec noble do Rars t :p l soot satisfyr: n d i e y t h oo e ff s l t , h oS : Y e D nd u re L m o ll p lio th n e s, n 7 b it y h l Ez e y na cif i l li t i h o p e n e h s o o o p u f e s t: e r , perfect neutrality. Our object ought to be to conciliate the one armed men. his motion. I S u L R A I N m D v O e F d f J o r E t o I S -Pes Y of correspondence Mr. S. ESTCO with the authorities of the Isle of Jersey on the subject of the report of the Royal Commission. Sir G. C. LEWIS had no objection to produce the corre spondence referred to by the right hon. gentleman. An HON. MEMBER moved that the house be counted. There were not 30 members p resent when the mot ion was made; but before the sand had run its course, there wa s a considerable accession to the forces on the Treasury bench, and the benches below the gangway on the Liberal side having received a small reinforcement, the requisite 40 were present when the Speaker proceeded to count. THE NAVIES OF ENGLAND AND FRANCE. Sir J. PAKINGTON—Sir, I now rise to call attention to a subject the importance of which no one will deny. I have received information with respect to the progress of the French Government in building armour-covered ships, to which I think it ray duty to call the attention of the house and of her Majesty's Government without any loss of time. I bring this subject before the house with the ad vantage, not only of stating my facts on what I may call high authority, but also of stating what that authority is. (Hear.) Every one conversant with the state of the navy is aware of the high reputation of Admiral Elliot. (Hear.) It is only justice to him to say that there are few, if any, more able officers in her Majesty's service. I have the advantage of private friendship with him, and I am able to state that during three weeks he visited all the French ports and arsenals with the exception of Toulon. He has given me permission to mention his name in connexion with the statements which I am about to make to the house, but with a feeling which is honourable to himself, as he has lived on terms of friendship with many officers of the French navy, he is anxious that he should not be under the suspicion of having acted in any manner as a spy, or of having done anything unworthy of his high character as a British officer. (Hear, hear.) I should state that what ever information he has obtained was obtained in an open manner, and he visited the French dockyards with the ad vantage of having received the permission of the Minister of Marine. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Lindsay.) I understand the motive of that cheer, and it is only due to the French Government to state, on the part of the French Admiralty, that there has been nothing like anyintention to conceal its preparations. But those preparations are of such a nature that after the communication I received from Admiral Elliott I could not delay calling the attention of the Go vernment to them for a single day. Admiral Elliott returned yesterday morning to this country, and in a long conversa tion m ith him I heard the facts that I am about to submit to the house. lam glad to see the hon, member for Sun derland in his place; in the early pal t of this session, on a motion made by the hon. and gallant member for Ports mouth, the hon. member for Sunderland spoke strongly on this subject. He stated to the house that he had had a communication with the French Minister of Marine; and he gave his impression with regard to the progress France was making in the completion of her navy ; but what I particularly wish to call the attention of the house to is a letter the hon. member told us he had received from M. Chevalier. That gentleman throughout the late negotia- tions with the hon. member for Rochdale (Mr. Cobden) was in frequent communications with him. I believe no one has taken more pains than M. Chevalier to impress on this country, and on thqso Englishmen with whom he has had communication, that it is the desire of the French Govern ment to maintain pacific relations with this country, and that it was making no unusual efforts to increase its naval force. M. Chevalier wrote thus to the hon. member for Sunderland : " You have a full statement of our navy—you have it in a blue-book—you are told officially by the Government and privately, in the most friendly and honest manner, by our Minister, that of iron-cased vessels France has only one fit for use, that in a short time we are to have a second, but that a full year must elapse before we can get two more, and two years before we shall be in possession of a fleet of six iron-cased vessels ; and it is in the face of such a fact that Englaxd feels herself so dangerously menaced that she spends millions without number to get rid of the peril of an invader." (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Lindsay.) The hon. gentleman cheers, but before I sit down I think he will be obliged to acknowledge one of two things—either that M. Chevalier was throwing dust in his eyes, though I have no reason for saying he did so—l know nothing that could justify the imputation —or that M. Chevalier himself knew nothing of the subject of which he was speaking. The noble lord, the Secretary of the Admiralty, also spoke on that evening ; and, with perfect frankness, he said he had no desire to disguise or conceal from the house the real state of affairs with regard to the relative state of the navies of England and of France. The noble lord stated what at the time was strictly correct according to all the information he then pos sessed. He said that the French Admiralty had at that time built, or was building, six iron-cased frigates; two were large vessels of 5 guns ; there were four others, sister shipe of La Gloire. And, exclusive of the old floating batteries of the Russian war, the French had built, or were building, five iron-cased gunboats, and four vessels of a formidable cha racter, called floating batteries; altogether they had nine iron covered gunboats or floating batteries, and six large iron-cased frigates, of which La Gloire is one. The noble lord added, what I think was a most important assurance, to which I beg to call the attention of the noble lord at the head of the Government. He told us,— " That if they found much more progress made over the water or among any other nations in building these ships, it would be the bounden duty of the Government to come down to the house and state frankly and fairly what was going on, with a view, if necessary, to extend the number of our iron-cased vessels." This was an important statement on the part of the noble lord, and the fact that it proceeded from his lips makes me regret that the First Lord of the Admiralty is not in the House of Commons. Though I accept any such statement from the noble lord, and believe it was made in the utmost good faith, and with the intention of fulfilling it, yet the noble lord is not a member of the Cabinet, and it is not un just or disrespectful to him to say, that we cannot receive promises on his part as of the same weight and importance as if they . proceeded from the First Lord of the Admiralty himself. Since this promise was made, the state of things contemplated by the noble lord has arisen ; the position of the French navy with regard to iron-cased frigates is dif ferent now from what it was when that promise was made but the Government has not come down to Parliament and' made the statement thus promised, or asked for the means of extending the number of our iron-cased ships. I must, however, make some exception to this assertion. On Thursday week there was another discussion on the state of our navy ; and the Secretary of the Admiralty took that opportunity of informing the house that the French Go vernment had been making very serious efforts to add to the number of its iron-cased ships since February last. I think he told us there was reason to believe that since that month the French Government had laid down no less than nine more of these iron-covered ships, and so far as the number is concerned this statement exactly tallies with the information I have received from Admiral Elliott. But that information does not exactly tally with other parts of the statement of the noble lord. When I allude to these differences the house will bear in mind that what Admiral Elliot told me yesterday is what he has himself seen in the last fortnight, while my noble friend could only speak from the information he had received from others. Admiral Elliott did not visit Toulon; he says nothing of the ships there ; but at other ports he saw the following ships in vari ous states of preparation ; some were only lately laid down, others were in a forward state ; the Magenta and the Sol ferino are twc large ships, of 52 guns, to be launched in June ; there are also the Normandie, Flandres, Magnanime, Gauloise, Valeureuse, Couronne, Surveillante, Revanche, Heroine, and Quillaine. Here are 12 armour-plated ships in different states of preparation. Of the two at Toulon Admiral Elliott does not profess to speak, but of the other 10 every one is a larger ship than La Gloire, and is intended to be an improvement upon La Gloire, and all excepting two, which are of iron, are wooden ships covered with armour. There are thus, including La Gloire, 13 frigates, besides which there are the two frigates referred to in M. Chevalier's letter, where it was said " Twelve months must elapse before we can get two more," and referred to also by my noble friend last February, and then described by him as being ships of large size, and carrying 52 guns. Now, instead of being frigates of large size and carrying 52 guns, they are line-of-battle ships, two-deckers, carrying two tiers of guns on each side. In ton nage they are very little short of our Warrior. The Warrior is a little more than 6,000 tons ; these two ships are of 5,100 tons, and instead of being 52-gun ships they are pierced for 100 guns each. In short, they are two ships suck as the world has never heard of before, because, while nearly equal in tonnage to the Warrior they will have 100 guns, out of which 52-26 on each side—are entirely covered with armour of full thickness, it being intended to cover all the rest of their guns with armour of a lighter character. I have now mentioned two line-of-battle ships of 100 guns each, and 13 of which 12 are heavier than La Gloire, making 15 armour- plated ships. The two line-of battle ships, named the Solferino and the Magenta, which Mons. Chevalier said would be completed in a year hence, are both to be launched in the approaching month of June, on the anniversary of the battles the names of which they bear. These two powerful ships will, there fore, be added immediately to the strength of the French navy, and the 15 ships which I have enumerated will be in addition also to the nine of which I have no information be yond that furnished by my noble friend—namely, the four formidable batteries and the five gun-boats. The practical point we arrive at is that the French are rapidly preparing 15 powerful armour-plated ships to be added to nine of a different description also covered with armour, giving them in the whole a force of 24 armour-covered ships, exclusive of the old batteries which were used during the Russian war. Now, what is the state of preparation in England ? I am not aware of more than six ships of this description in England which are built or being built. We have the Warrior - and the Black Prince, two ships superior in ton nage, and superior, I hope, in speed to any of the French ships, but very inferior in armament. (Hear.) The War rior and Black Prince will not, I believe, carry 50 guns (Lord C. Paget.—" Forty guns"), while the two great French line-of-battle ships will carry 100 guns each. We have also the Defence and Resistance, one of which has lately been launched. I am afraid that those two ships must be considered as inferior to any one of the 15 vessels I have mentioned (Lord C. Paget dissented), though I hope my noble friend is right in expressing an opposite opinion. Then we have two more ships in the course of building; these are of intermediate size between the Defence and the Warrior, and I know of nothing else except the iron-plated ship of the same siza as the Warrior, which as we have hearl, the Admiralty intend to build at C Latham. I have thus laid before the house the compara tive state of the two navies in this most important respect at the present moment. The French have 15 frigates and line-of battle ships, together with nine powerful ships of a different description : in England, so far as I know, we have six, or at the most, seven. Admiral Elliott assures me that not only are the French iu advance of us to the extent I haverow stated, but that in every one of the yards which alarm by to n a communicateer thiseouter statement. to he visited th e u t mos t e ff or ts are being made to press all those ship s f orwar d to comp l e ti on . I h ave no w i s h t o ex cite it mythel because G mak o e ve i r t ntent and l think the house in this public manner information of so startling t maye r these ihnot atpreparations influenced coetdtve isa being h y which makingnt J c a n d s e uthe in he FrenchFranceac?l will not Government Why efforts. Every one is able t,o judge for himself for what ulti mate end these preparations are intended. The point to which I invite attention is that whatover may be the mo- tive of France the practiced result is that we are rapidly becoming the second maritime Power of Europe. (Hear.) It is impossible to exagger Ate the imyortance of this propo sition. Is it true, or is it not true ? If it be true, what are the intentions of the Government ? Such questions cught to be quite above any party considerations—(hear, hear) — and I will not therefore (enter into any party matters, but I cannot help feeling that I am bringin g this subject under the serious consideration of the house and of the country, at a moment when the Government are, as I think, need lessly throwing away a large ?mount of revenue. (Ironi cal cries of " hear.") Tha.t observation may not be acceptable to hon. gentlemen opposite after the recent Par liamentary struggle in which we have been engaged, but 1 hope my tone will con', , ince the house that I am not alluding to this matte. , .• with any party object. (Hear.) Let me add that no one believes more sincerely than I do I that the noble lord at the head of the Government is as anxious as any to preserve the supremacy of England. (Cheers.) There was recently paid to him one of the highest compliments that any public man could receive, coming as it did from a member of this house who is himself of high position and character. The noble lord was told that in the opinion of that gentleman he has the heart of an Englishman and the head of a statesman. I beg to tell the noble lord that no party differences shall prevent my saying that I subscribe to this eulogium. (Hear, hear.) For myself, I hope 1 may lay claim to possessing the heart of an Englishman, and it is becausel am full of anxiety as an Englishman at the information received by me from unex- ceptionable authority that I now appeal to the noble lord both as an Englishman and as a statesman, and ask him whether he is content to allow this state of things to con tinue, and whether he is prepared to tell us what efforts he will make to prevent its continuance ? (Hear, hear.) He will not deny the gravity of the subject. He can hardly say that I am speaking on erroneous infor mation. I cannot see the possibility of error in state ments made as the result of personal inquiry by one of the most distinguished men in our navy. That officer gives me the account of what he has himself seen within a fortnight from this day, and he allows me to use his name. Looking at the nature of this information, I must say I am disap pointed that the pledge given on the part of the Govern ment in February has not been redeemed. The state of things then contemplated has arisen. Fresh efforts are being made across the water ; no proportionate efforts are being made in England. I hope my object in making this state ment will not be misunderstood—(cheers)—and I will merely add that with great anxiety I await the answer of the noble lord. I hope that he is not insensible to the gravity of this information, and that if, as I have reason to believe, he has received the same information, no financial considerations will prevent the Government from using every possible effort to maintain the supremacy of this country. (Cheers). Admiral WALCOTT said he had received the same in formation, and was convinced by it that our neighbour had at this moment a most formidable number of armour-cased ships. Very soon they would possess a fleet perfectly irresistible in regard to this country if a war broke out, unless we took steps to place ourselves on an equality with them. He felt bound in justice to Admiral Elliott to say that he had waited on the First Lord of the Adiniralty, and acquainted him with all the facts which had been laid be fore the house by the right hon. baronet. (Hear, hear.) It was imperative upon the house to see that England was placed in a position of equality with foreign Powers in this important particular, for if once we lost the supremacy of the sea England's sun would sink never to rise above the horizon again. The noble viscount at the head of the Go vernment had been taunted by an hon. member below the gangway with making a " Rule Britannia" speech, but he felt convinced that, high as her reputation stood, it would be increased by a repetition of " Rule Britannia" speeches. (Hear, hear.) Mr. LINDSAY was surprised that the right hon. baronet if he meant to challenge statements made leyelaim at a former period should not have given him notice; for he could not be expected to carry a whole array of figures in his 'lead. It was only at eight o'clock that he had heard from the right hon. baronet that he intended to call these statements into question. Neither could he see what good was to be done by the right hon. baronet's statement. If the informa tion which he had received was so important, his proper course would have been to wait upon the noble lord at the head of the Government and lay it before him. The only result of the course he had adop'ed would be to create un necessary alarm. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. baronet had challenged the veracity of one of the most eminent statesmen in France, M. Chevalier. (No, no.) Sir J. PAKINGTON—On the contrary, I stated dis tinctly that I had no right to make any imputation on the veracity of M. Chevalier. (Hear, hear.) Mr. LINDSAY said the statement of Admiral Elliot was entirely at variance with M. Chevalier's, and if that was not imputing his veracity he did not know what was. In his letter, written in the early part of February, M. Cheva lier stated that France had then only one iron••cased ship ready, La Gloire, and that in a short time they were to have a second, but that a full year was necessary to get two more ready, and another year for two more. The right hon. baronet would probably admit that on the Ist of February there was but one ship ready, and he had ,not stated that the second one was ready yet, so that M. Chevalier's state ment was quite correct. As for M. Chevalier attempting to throw dust in his eyes, he certainly had had some expe rience of the world, and was not easily gulled, but M. Che valier did nothing of the sort, he simply referred him to the Minister of Marine. He saw the Minister of Marine, who handed him his own repot t of every ship in the navy—of the stages in which they were and where they were to be found, and he offered, if he would visit the dockyards for himself and judge of the accuracy of the return, he would send a gentleman with him from his own office. Those statements were entirely at variance with the information of the Secretary of the Admiralty on which h was basing his estimates, and he wrote to his noble friend from Par is suggesting that he should come over and see for himself, being sure that the Minister of Marine would grant the noble lord the same facilities as he had so frankly offered to him. No doubt, pressing engagements had prevented the noble lord from doing that, as they had prevented him from accepting the offer of the Minister of Marine; but so anxious was he to arrive at the truth that he consulted with his hon. friend the member for Finsbury, and they sent over an engineer who visited the dockyards of France. That gen tleman held opinions in regard to the intentions of the Emperor of the French very similar to those of the right hon. baronet. He had the same idea which the right hon. baronet appeared to have, that the French Emperor was getting together a vast navy, with some remote view of invading England ; but when he came back he confirmed, word for word, the statements made by M. Chevalier and the Minister of Marine. (Hear, hear.) He mentioned the subject, too, to the hon. member for Glasgow and the noble lord the member for Totness, who had been members of the recent commission, and they had visited the principal dock yards, and would be able to say whether the information he had received was correct. Besides that ho had analysed the expenditure of the French navy, and he had shown to the house—as clearly as figures could shove—that so far from overrunning the votes—as it was said that money was voted for one purpose and applied to another—for a series of ten years the expenditure had not exceeded the votes more than our own expenditure exceeded our votes. (Hear, hear.) The vote for the French navy last year was 4900,000, and he had no doubt that the expenditure this year would only slightly exceed that sum. But we were spending upwards of £12,000,000 on our navy. (Hear.) If France was only spending £5,000,000, and if we were spend ing X 12,000,000, what reason was there to fear the power of France? Either we must be managing our business very badly, or France must be managing her business exceedingly well, if France could produce for £5,000,000 that which cost us £12,000,000. He wanted to know why the right hon. baronet who had held the office of First Lord of the Admiralty should ask the Government to spend more money on the navy. What would be the effect of this discussion in France? The story would go about that on the recommen dation of one who had held high office at the Admiralty, England was about to vote more money for the building of ships. There were many people in France who seriously entertained the idea that we intended to invade France. (Laughter.) Hon. gentlemen opposite might laugh, but he laughed at those who thought that France intended to in vade England, and he had far better reason to laugh at them than hon. gentlemen had to laugh at those gentlemen in France who thought that England intended to invade France. If they looked at history, they would find that France had never invaded England, but the flag of Eng land had waved over the palaces of France and ,the armies of England had marched inee its capital. France had never invaded England, but we had invaded France. Therefore when a vast English fleet was cruising in the Channel it was not so ludicrous to assume that England intended to invade her again as it seemed to hon. gentlemen opposite. Itwould go forth that, not content with spending£l2,ooo,ooo on our navy, we'tvere about to spend more money. The people in France would biing pressure to bear on their re presentatives in the Chamber of Deputies. The Chamber of Deputies would bring pressure to bear on the Throne. More money would be spent on the navy of France, and we should have to spend more money on the navy of England. (Hear, hear.) There was some rumour of nine or ten iron cased ships being about to be built in France. The gentle man who was sent across was told to inquire particularly into the matter, and he did not see the smallest preparation. He did not mean to say that France would not build more iron ships, because five years ago the Emperor had deter mined on building nothing but iron ships. (Hear, hear.) He did not say that in the course of time France would not build more iron ships ; but the gentleman who was sent to France could find no trace of them, and dust was not thrown in his eyes, for he was allowed to visit the dock yards. Admiral Elliot's statement was that he had seen nine or ten in course of building. Sir J. PAKIN GTON—Fiiteen in different states of pro • gress, and excepting the ships at Toulon. (Hear, hear.) Mr. LINDSAY thought it very remarkable that Admiral Elliot should see so many ships in preparation, when only a fortnight before the gentleman who was sent over could find no trace of the nine iron-cased ships. He believed that what Admiral Elliot saw were not the nine large ships which it was rumoured were in course of construction. He Was 44 anxious as any man that England should maintain her maritime supremacy. (Cheers.) Not one word had ever fallen from his lips in that house to lead any one to suppose that he desired to see any Power superior to Eng land on the ocean. (Hear.) On the contrary, he had said over and over again that on account of our vast possessions and our enormous wealth always afloat, England ought to be equal to France and any other naval Power in Europe combined. (Cheers.) But he had shown to the house that in efficient ships of war—steamships—England possessed more than all the nations in Europa. He said that we pos sessed 20 line-of-battle ships, and his noble friend the Se cretary to the Admiralty admitted that we possessed 17 line-of-battle ships more than all the other nations put to gether. Setting aside the vessels which Admiral Elliot said he had seen within the last fortnight, and of which no trace was to be found a month ago, France had six iron- cased vessels, mounting from 36 to 5'2 guns each. The two terrible vessels with which the right hon. baronet had frightened the house were the Magenta and the Solferino. They were line-of-battle ships cut down and cased with iron. (Admiral Walcott—Not cut down.) Well, then, not cut down. The right hon. baronet said they mounted 26 guns on each side. Sir J. PAKINGTON—What I said was that they were pierced to carry 100 guns each. But they had 26 guns on each side under armour of the full thickness. Mr. LINDSAY said it was no new information, and the right hon. baronet must know that those two vessels were not at all to be compared with the Warrior and Black Prince. Altogether France had six iron-cased vessels, two of a large size, three mounting 36 guns, and one mounting 40 guns. We had seven iron-cased vessels built and building. If they took the Gloire, the Invincible, or the Normandie, and compared them with the Black Prince and Warrior, why the Warrior was double the size of the Gloire, and would carry double the weight of metal. It was the same with the Black Prince. These vessels were double the size, So that, in fact, in iron-cased vessels we had more of superior size and power than France now possessed. There was nothing to justify the right hon. baronet in ask ing the house to spend more money. The right hon.baronet, however, came down and made a statement which must ex cite unnecessary alarm in the minds of the people, and was likely to lead us into trouble with the Emperor of the French, whigh he was sure the right hon. gentleman was as anxious as any man to avoid. The right hon. baronet should bear in mind that while it was necessary to have a sufficient naval force to maintain our position as the first maritime nation in the world, if we built more ships than were neces- sary, France would go on building more, and then we must go on building more ships, thus entailing on the people of both countries unnecessary alarm and an unnecessary amount of taxation. (Cheers.) Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said that the statements of the right hon. baronet were more alarming when they reflected that the Government,in the face of information to the same effect, had been voting away money which,before the end of the Session, they would be obliged, in one way or other, to replace. (Hear, hear.) The house must bear in mind that they were dealing,not with mere suppositions, but with fact. A British Admiral of the highest standing in the service had visited some of the French dockyards, and had made a report which ought justly to alarm the Government and the people of this country. Evidence had been giv©n that day before a Select Committee of which he was a member —(Order.) On the 4th of May, 1858, the keel of the first iron ship was laid in France, and Admiral Elliot told them that there were now thirteen frigates and two line-of battle ships in a forward state of construction. A two-decker ship was a most formidable antagonist to any frigate, more especially as the former, from their size, would be capable of carryim: ordnance of the same power as the Warrior, and of giving a double broadside. He hoped that the Government would lose no time in instituting a thorough investigation into this subject. A committee com posed of men of science was now engaged in an inquiry as to the power of resistance of iron plates, and the genera applicatiOn of iron to shipbuilding, and would soon be able to furnish very valuable information, on that subject. He suggested that the Government should add to that commit tee a number of gentlemen of known attainments in metal lurgy and the science of ordnance, in order that they might investigate the whole question, and ascertain how our navy might most speedily and effectually be placed on an equality with that of France. (Hear.) Mr. D A LGLISH said that the dockyards of France were by no means in the state of activity which had been de scribed that night when he visited them lately. He depre cated the continuance of such discussions, and suggested that the Government had better send a committee over to inquire into the state of the French navy. (A laugh.) Ho was sure the French Government would afford every facility for the investigation, and had no doubt that the committee would make a report very different from the speech of the right hon. baronet. (Hear.) Lord C. PAGET—Sir, I cannot but agree with the hon. member for Glasgow, that these periodical discussions on the armaments of France are very unadvisable. (Hear, hear.) It is perfectly true that the French are making considerable progress in regard to iron-cased ships. Whin the last few months they have either laid down or have prepared to lay down nine iron ships. Ido not sup pose that my right hon. friend desires to create unneces sary alarm ; but he spoke of these ships, as the hon. mem ber for Sunderland observed, as if they were growing up like mushrooms. The French are really not using any undue exertions at present in their dockyards. (Hear.) They pay undoubtedly great attention to their navy ; they have vast dockyards and a large establishment of artificers, and they are constantly building ships. Of late years they have bestowed undivided attention on this new class of very powerful vessels. But we have no reason to suppose that we are going to be suddenly overwhelnied with a great fleet of these iron ships, although I dare say that in two or three years they will have made great progress. I have no doubt that my friend Admiral Elliot, whose great merits as an officer I gladly acknowledge, has made a faith ful report of what he saw across the Channel. I think, how ever, that my right hon. friend has somewhat misunderstood Admiral Elliot's views in regard to these iron ships. [Sir J. Pakington—Not at all.] I also had a conversation with that officer on the subject. (Hear.) Now, it is perfectly true that the Magenta and Solferino are pierced with 100 ports ; but it does not follow that either will mount 100 guns. Indeed, I cannot conceive it possible that either can do so. They have not sufficient flotation for anything like that quantity of ordnance. The Warrior is termed a 40-gun ship, bat if we were to put guns in all her ports fore and aft she would number double as many. lam sure it would be very un wise to arm those ships with more guns than they can carry in their casemated batteries. The Magenta and Solferino carry 52 guns apiece, while the Warrior carries only 40; but then our ships are intended to mount 100 lb. Armstrong guns. Ido not believe that the French ships are calculated to carry those guns, for they are not so large or powerful as our own. I would rather avoid at this moment entering into too great details as to our shipbuilding operations. I pur posed making a statement of the intentions of the Govern ment on that head when I again brought forward the navy estimates. I may, however, say now that the Government have been watching with considerable interest the proceed ings of other countries in this matter, and have determined to build five additional iron-cased wooden ships in our dock yards. We have not made any addition to the estimates on that account. We have frames of timber cut outfor line-of battle ships, and by giving them additional flotation and length we shall render them capable of carrying a power ful armament. When cased with iron these vessels will be of a f vmidable character. With respect to what fell from the honourable and gallant admiral the member for Portsmouth, I have no doubt we may expect to derive from the labours of the committee to which he has re ferred some very interesting results as to the best means of making iron-cased ships. I will not now further enter into the subject, but will simply say that very shortly we may expect some advantageous results from recent ex periments which will be of great advantage to us in con sidering the mode of construction of iron-cased ships. I think the house will excuse me for entering further into detail upon the present occasion. (Hear.) THE APPOINTMENT OF GENERAL EDEN. Mr. CONINGHAM rose to call attention to a subject which had excited much public attention, the appointments of colonels of regiments. He wished to avoid instancing particular cases or mentioning particular names, but if the principle of promotion by selection were adopted he thought the selection should be based upon public services. There had been much dissatisfaction expressed at the mode in which the appointments to colonelcies of regiments had been made. He would not refer to any particular case, but would ask the Under-Secretary for War what was the principle upon which those appointments were made, and why, in the last appointment that had taken place, the services ren dered by several officers had apparently been overlooked by the authorities at the Horse Guards ? Mr. T. G. BARING said as no notice of the question had been given, it would have been more satisfactory if the hon. member had stated to what appointment he took exception. Mr. CONINGHAM—The appointment of Gen. Eden. Mr. BARING was able, even without notice, to satisfy the house that the appointment 4 pf Major-Gen. Eden was justified by the facts of the case. It had been alleged against that appointment that Major-General Eden was a Guards man, that he had never seen foreign service, and was ap pointed out of due order. Those statements were incorrect. General Eden was not a Guards' officer. He had served in the West Indies in command of his regiment, and so far from being appointed out of turn, he had been several times passed over as colonel by officers who were his juniors, but who had the good fortune of seeing more service than he had. That appointment was, therefore, perfectly justifi • able. The appointments to the colenelcies of regiments were made upon the recommendation of the Commander-in- Chief. It was assumed that officers of good service, al though they might not have seen distinguished service, should not be passed over, but that officers of very distin guished service should be selected for those appointments before officers who had not had the same opportunities for distinguishing themselves. It would be found that in recommending officers for those appointments the Com • manger-in -Chief had always acted with strict justice, and he,believed that suoh was the general opinion of the service. The house then went into committee. THE ARMY ESTIMATES. £2,200,000 was proposed for army stores. Sir F. SMITH thought another committee should le appointed to test the respective merits of the Enfield and Whitworth rif.es, It was quite unaccouAtable that a com- mittee comprising such able gentlemen as Gen. Codring ton, Gen. Hay, Captain Boxer, Mr. Whitworth, and Col. Dickson, should have been unproductive of any result whatever, but he hoped that would soon be remedied by the appointment, if necessary, of another committee. Mr. T. G. BARING said it was intended that there shoull be another trial between the Enfie'd and Whitworth rifles of the same material, and that as regarded the form of the vote he thought that the massing together of the items tended greatly to facilitate discussion. At the end of the year he anticipated that the stock of arms would be in a highly satisfactory state. The increase of the vote for ex periments chiefly arose from the expense of testing iron plates, which fell upon the War Department. Colonel DICKSON moved the reduction of the vote by £112,473, being the excess of the item far stores in the cor- responding item of last year. Capt. .TER' IS supported tine vote, expressing his strong objection to the reduction of the military stores of the country. Mr. CONINGHAM looked with grata suspicion on these Government experiments, and he believed th a t it was gene- rally admitted that the Enfield was a very inferior weapon ,o the Whitworth rifle. Sir J. PAXTON said that the fact was the Enfield rifle had been made what it lms by adopting the bore of the Whitworth rifle and two-thirds of its turn. It was objected that the Whitworth rifle was more expensive; and no doubt those that were inade by hand cost some ten guineas because they were ma de by hand, but if they were made upon a large scale, with the aid of machinery, the price could be brought down to that of the Enfield rifle, while we should have what everybody admitted was a very superior weapon. At the sam 13 time, in these matters the Government had the best oppo Ttunities of knowing all the facts of the case, and he should:, therefore, support the vote against the motion for its redw tion. Mr. BARING explained that the reason of the extra charge for military stores and experiments last year was the adoption of the Armstrong gun and the experiments neces sary to try it. After a few remarks from Mr.. LIDDELL the amendment was negatived and the vote agl need to. The Chairman then reporter I progress and the house re sumed. The Customs and Inland It e venue Bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to, and • 5 as ordered to be read a third time on Monday. EXCISE AND !STAMPS BILL. The house went into commi t tee, pro forma, on this bill, in order that it might be print exl with amendments. On the second clause being proposed, Mr. GRIFFITH moved, as an amendment in the clause, to strike out the word "quart' I and insert the word " pint." The CHANCELLOR of t' b e EXCHEQUER was very sorry that he could not arced e to the proposal of the bon. gentleman. He felt himself to a certain extent entangled, hut he hoped the bon. gentle roan would kindly regard the position in which be was plat ed, and he was sure that, from the kindliness of the hon. get ttleman's character, he would regard that position. It had certainly been admitted that it was a grievance that hither 'to less than two gallons of spirits could not be sold by the a wholesale dealers, but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequi ar) had now come down to a single bottle—(laughter) —an tti he was determined not to lower it beyond that. His hoc t. friend would know that he had no undue sympathy with publicans, still he would be very far from wishing to do t:b tem, as a class, any unneces sary injury. The right hon. gl antleman concluded by relie. rating that he would not, u• 3 der any circumstances, come down lower than a single bot t le. Mr. CON INGHAM begg ;ed to remind the right hon. gentleman that what went u t eder the name of a " single bottle" was exactly an imperi a 1 pint. Mr. D. GRIFFITH the: tt consented to withdraw his amendment. Lord FE Rl‘lOY moved th Lt at the end of the clause there be added, " That notwithstar 'ding any provision hereinafter contained, all penalties to be incurred or recoverable under this section, or in relation th ereto, may be sued for by any superintendent or inspector o l police, upon information and summons before the police co cart or justice having jurisdic tion in the place where the offence is committed, but the appropriation of the penalty . a hall be the same as is herein after specified." The CHANCELLOR of -the EXCHEQUER said he should agree to the introduci f ion of the words proposed to be added to the clause by his noble friend the member for Marylebone. (Hear, hear.) The words were then adde a!, and the clause, as amended, was ordered to stand part of I`. he bill. On clause 3, which created. a five shilling license for the sale of light beer to be consito red off the premises. Sir W. JOLLIFFE took exception to the clause. Ho looked with distrust on this: extension of the system of licensing, which he believed 'would have a most detrimental effect on society. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the object of the clause was not to create a new class of houses for the sale of stronE; liquor. It dealt merely with houses where beer not exceed :ing in value three-halfpence a quart was sold to be censure :red off the premises, under the authority of an order of th F, Treasury. By a recent de cision, which the revenue a sahorities were not prepared to dispute, that order- was not deemed sufficient, and the clause, therefore, was introduced to legalise a practice which materially conduced t o the comfort and advantage of the poorer classes. The beer sold was of a weak and inferior description, and for consumption off the premises. He did not think, under the circumstances, that those beer-houses should be placed under the same supervision and regulations as the other' beer shops, where beer was consumed on the premises. If any specific complaint was made as to the manner in which the beer shops now pro posed to be licensed were mnducted, he would take care that it was fully investigated-. He hoped the right hon. baronet would be satisfied with this explanation. The clause was agreed to. Clauses 4,5, 6,7, and 8 w"are agreed to. On clause 9, The CHANCELLOR of tihe EXCHEQUER said there was a class of men called ")Duffers," who, being substan tially hawkers, sold their g sods by sample. He proposed to alter the words of the clam tse, so as to extend the existing law and make those hawkers: liable. The clause, as also clause 10, was agreed to. On clause 11, which had reference to the taxing of house agents, Mr. AYRTON hoped tbos right hon. gentleman would withdraw it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the object of the clause was to substitute a reasonable for an unreasonable amount of duty, and so to recover a revenue upon lettings of that nature, which they had hitherto failed to obtain. Mr. CONINGHAM opposed the clause. The committee divided, when there appeared— For the clause Against it —ll The clause was then agreed to, and after some further conversation the other clauses were passed and the chair man reported the bill. The Consolidated Fund (410,000,000) Bill sad the Re formatory Schools (Scotland) Bill were read a third time and passed. The Poor Assessments (S cotlaud) Bill was read a second time. The house adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock. FIRE AT A LUCIFER FACTORY.—On Thursday morning a fire broke out in the premises of Mr. J. Hynanif lucifer match maker, 7, Prince's-square, Finsbury. The fire occurred in the drying-house, through the overheat of the stove. The brigade engines were quickly in attendance, and the firemen got the flames extinguished, but not until 180 gross of matches were destroyed. [ADVERTISEMENT.] Pints and medicine invariably ag. giavate and perpetuate diseases; their annoyance, dis appointment, and expense may be avoided by persons in indifferent health sending only their address to E. S. Barry, Esq., 77, Regent-street, W., London, and they , will receive gratis and free by post the " IrivAnrnst Ow if G elm," or Natural Restorer, without medicine or ex pmse, of perfect digestion, strong nerves, sound lungs, and refreshing sleep, to the most enfeebled, insuring the removal constipation, liver complaints, of indigestion (dyspep sia), nausea, epilepsy, paralysis, debility, nervousness, palpitatiot cough, asthma , . consumption, dropsy, flat u l enc y, diarrhoea, dysentery, biliousness, fevers, sore throats, catarrhs, colds. noises in the ears, rheumatism, gout, impurities, eruptions, hysteria, neuralgia, irritability, sleeplessness, acidity, palpi tation, heartburn, headache, despondency, cramps, spasms, sinking, fita, bronobitis.—"Unouestionably the safest Guide to health." BIRTHS. EDEN.—On the 29th ult.., at the British Legation, earls.. ruhe, the Hon. Mrs. Eden, of a son. HATRORN.—On the 29th ult., at Boulogne-sur-Mer, the wife of Rear-Admiral Hathorn, of a son. TOWNSEND.—On the 30th ult., at Queen's-terrace, South sea, the wife of Lieut. S. P.Townsend, R.N., of her Ma jesty's yacht, of a son. MARRIAGoES. LEDSAM—SALT.—On the 29th ult,, at Edgbaston, Joseph Ledsam Esq., eldest son of J. F. Ledeaui, Esq., of Chad hill, Edgbaston, to Anna Maria, eldest daughter of the late T. C. Salt, Esq., of Edgbaston. _ . PEARSE—EYANS.—On the 29th ulc., at St. Neot's, Arthur Pearse, Esq., M.D,, of Botesdale, Suffolk, to Elizabeth Burroughes, eldest daughter of John J. Evans, Esq., of St. Neot's. DEATHS. BAXTER.—On the 30th ult., Mr. George Baxter, of Surbiton. BRODRICK.—On the 29th ult., at Titsey Rectory, Surrey, the Hon. and Rev. George Brodrick, aged 64. BURBEY.—On the 29th ult., at 52, Regent-street, Richard Burbey, Esq., of Suffolk-Jane, Cannon-street, solicitor, aged 53. MACKINTOSH—On the 26th nit., at Dunachton, Inverness, Alexander Mackintosh, of Mackintosh. MACLEAN.—On the 29th ult., at Southampton, Commis sary-General Sir George Maclean, K.C.8., aged 67. PLANE.—On the 29th ult., at Maidstone, Mr. Win. Squire Plane, late or Graves , 3nd, aged 57. LONDON : Printed and Published by AIURDO YOUNG. of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at TnE SUN Cate, No. 112,Stran d, in the Precinct of the ,Savoy, in the Ocunty of 3113.41e5e% SaturdaY, June l, THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING; JUNE I, 1861.