The Sun. — London, England, 1825-02-05 00:00:00

C'tlr. Hobhouse) had certainly hear.l that one of the indi viduals who now aspired to the Presidency of the United States was so hostile to England, that Canada might require to be strengthened. Ile was at the same time ignorant whether that were the fact or not—although such ignorance was not his fault, but the fault of Ministers, who had not afforded adequate information to the public. No one indeed seemed to know why the augmentation took place, nor whether it was owing in any degree to the new line of policy which had been adopted by this country towards the Holy Alliance, yet the people of England had a right to know the reason of such a vast addi tion to our present military force. We had now a regular army of 73.000 men—a body of troops which, twenty years back, 'would have alarmed all the constitutional jealousy . of the nation, and to that number of military a further addition was to he made of, : some said 10, some 15, and some 20,000 men. The inure, before it emitted or approved "of such a mea were had a right to ask the purposes to which the troops were distineer and it also had a right to a categorical answer to the qnestioh. Was it on account of the occupation of Spain by the French troops that the augmentation took place ? And here heconld not - help saying that he was absolutely astound ed not to'fitel the least notice of that occupation of a neutral country in his .Majesty's Speech. Parliament had a right to know why the occupation was allowed to, continue, or was it that account that the army was to be augmented. We had suffered one of onr Allies, (Italy) however, to be overrun by the troops of another of our Allies, and no increase followed that proceeding. We allowed another Ally, Spain, to be overrun in the same way, and still there was no talk of in creasing the military establishment. But now, because the ,Iturman Empire attacked the East India Company, a large 'augmentation was to be the consequence. Another topic to which he must advert before concluding. He should beg to esk the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer,, what the expences were to be of this augmentation, although it was not to the pay of the army, but to the army itself that he (Mr. HobhouSe) objected. Year after year the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House that taxes wonla be reduced, and when the Right Honourable Gentleman did produce his. plan - it was to be boped that in redeeming his pledge he would take • off first of all some of the direct taxes. Much as he (Mr. Hob house) approved of a liberal system of commercial policy, lie was anxious that the working classes should be relieved from those charges which pressed immediately upon their comfort.— If a hen all tie people were in easy circumstances, the restraint on rade. could . be effectually removed, no measure was more to -be desired. But at present the first thing to inquire was, why the public burdens were to be increased. Having trespassed so long on the House, he should not object to the report being trought up. At the same time he did rot concur in any part of it, but in that which rela`ed to the improvement in the revenue of the country, to the improvement of the great interests of the ration, and to the improvement of his Majesty's Ministers.— (4%, laugh.) Mr. t4RESSETT PELTIAM said a few words, which were inaudible in the Gallery. 'We understood him to' say, that in allowing the Address to pass, he reserved the right of freely canvassing the future measures to which it alluded when they sane before Parliament. The CI4ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that at the very moment that the Hon. Member for Westmin an r had made his appeal and put his question to him, he had f. rnisheil him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) with the an sisw which it would be his duty to give. The Hon. Member had said that it had now been the practice for many years to frame his Majesty's speech, and also the reply to it, in such a manner as not to involve the House in any specific pledge as to the course of measures it might subsequently pursue. If such were the case, was it not a little inconsistent in the lion. Gen tleman to call upon Ministers to explain in detail the proposi tions which they intended to submit to Parliament, and also the reasons on which those propositions were founded? The Hon. Member had stated that he hail no &Mtn but that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would be ready, when he brought is his budget, to state the reasons why he conceived this aug mentation of the army neceseary, and also the measures where by he intended•to provide for the payment of it, and to effect a further diminution of taxation.. It would be his duty at an early day to take the course which the Hon. Member had pointed out; and he should then certainly enter into the amplest 'details of the propositions he intended to submit to the House. aright, indeed, be more convenient to the Honourable Mem ber. for him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to explain his me Juan on the present occasion ; but he was sure that the ! I-louse would see very many reasons why it would be highly absurd for him to do so. He should therefore postpone his exp!aoation to a future day; at present lie would merely ob serve, that though the augmentation of the army seemed to him absolutely necessary, he should be able to accompany it' with a reduction of taxation which he trusted would appear to be founded on sound principles, and to be generally acceptable to the- country. He was glad to have this annunciation to wake to Parliament, because he had been told, in the course of the last session, that the reductions which he had made at that time left to the public a blank and dreary prospect for the fu tare. He had not then ventured upon any prognostics; but he felt at the time a strong presentiment in his own mind, that at ti .e commencement of the present session he should be enable to persevere in the course on which he had entered; and he now had the heartfelt satisfaction of stating to the House that that pia sentiment had been fully realized. The whole burden of 1 We speech which the Hon. Member for Westminster had just wade was contained in these words—" What are the grounds as which you, the Ministers, call upon the House to sanction tla s increase of the army ?" The lion. Memb-r, in putting that question, had alluded to what had fallen last night from the Noble Mover of the Address, —namely, that there was no thing in the state of Ireland to require an increase of our mili tary establishment. His Majesty's Government did not pre tend to say that there was any thing in Ireland which required the presence of an additional soldier. The same was also the ease in England. Indeed, His Majesty's speech distinctly stated, that the augmentation of the army had reference, not to the internal, but to the external circurnshincee of the country. 'the Honourable Member had also treated the Burmese war as a matter of great indifference : and that was not gar/raising, considering that most people treated with indifference a distant thinger. The Honourable Member had also said, that he knew nothing of the Ilurman empire, except its geographical situa oon ; but for all that, it might be a very formidable power, tspd calcutated to inflict ne smell detriment upon our posses -114 11$ in India. Arvy man who co usidered the peculiar na ture of our empire in India, and how it had arisen, almost sat spite of its rulers, into its present extent and magni tude, would see that whatever tended to disturb the tran quillity of any part of it. might produce, and indeed was cal culated to produce effects much more important than any which would enter into the imagination of a mere casual observer, or of one who only knew the Burman empire by mere hearsay. It would be time enough for hint to enter into some explana tion of the nature of the Burrnese power, when the matter was regularly brought before the House; and he had doubt that whenever it was so brought before it, he should be able to convince it that this increase of the army was diztated by sound policy, and was not liable to the objections which Om Honourable Member for \Westminster had urged against it ; for it was not an increase madein time of profound . peace, buten increase made in time of active war. With re gard to the words, " our other foreign possessions," he refer red him to the tioie of the debate for information of the details regarding them, which his Right Honourable Friend would at that time willingly afford. He could not conceive how the Ho nourable Member, who generally looked abroad with a philo sophic eye, could look at our foreign possessions without seeing hssw widely different their present state wa.s from their state t eenty years ago. The establishment which defended them' twenty years ago was utterly inade9uate to their present de fence, so great had been the change in their relative situations to each other; wed also in every thing which surroundej. them. —ln England, in case of any sudden danger, the ministers could call upon the people to support the Government with its resources ; and if the call was just, it was certain to be success.. tut ; but in our foreign pos.sesehens, which were widely scat tered over the face of the earth and of the water, those re sources could not be immediately called into action, and it would be therefore unwise to leave them exposed to all the dan gers of sudden invasion. These were the general grounds, wjthout entering further into their details, on which he thought that it would ist - streeteefhtly argil ed that there "were just causes' for increasing the army. He expected, however, that the Hon. Gentleman, if he took his information of the extent of that in crease. from the sources which were to be open to the public, would be greatly disappointed when learned what that in crease was really to be. The Right Hon. Gentleman then sat down amid considerable cheering. Colonel PALMER said, that notwithstanding the speeches he had heard upon the Address, he rose with exactly the sante feelings which he had stated to the House when last he von tared to address it, and which he must still avow, in the face a all the pra ises which had since been showered upon the hiovernment, and especially upon the Right lion. Gentleman, who had been declared to be its brightest ornament, and the object of the esteem and admiration of all . parties. For, if such praises had been merited, his own opinions were as unjust and illiberal, and lie owed it to ' the Right Honourable Gentleman, his colleagues, and himself, to def e nd t h e lan guage he had held, or to acknowledge his error. And, lint, as to -the Right Honourable Gentleman : what had been the ground of the unqualified applause - bestowed upon him in the last Session by Hon. and Learned Friends, whose talents and political integrity had given the greater weight to their opinion. The Right nohow - Me Gentleman was said to have done himself the greatest honour by the way in which be had-spoken of a Gallant Member of the House, because his language had been a severe rebuke to the Governments who had endeavoured to degrade that gallant individual • but .if the Right Ilan. Gentleman's language had been a rebuke to other Governments, how much greater to his own, who, in the very instance, had set the others the example ; nor could he help telling the Right Hon.. Gentleman, as he had told him in the case of her late Majesty, that as a Minister, he would have acted more consistently by the Crown, and by his colleagues, as well as by the interests of the parties, in &lending them in the Cabinet rather than in that House, and by making the atop don of his opinions there, the condition of his holding office. Where then in this had been the great merit of the RighnHon. Gentleman, or wliit the real difference betwixt his colleagues and himself, but that others had acted openly, whilst he would conceal his conduct ; for as Foreign Minister he had stood fore most in the Cabinet, the betrayer of - his country; whilst, like Judas, he denied it to the people, and had thought to screen himself by dining with a radical Lord Mayor, or by his bril liant speeches, which like brilliant tricks were most admired when least understood. If he had misrepresented the Right Hon. Gentleman he hoped to be set right, for nothing could be . further from his intention, .nor more painful to himself, than ' the personal attacks which public duty had compelled him to make; but considering the Right Hon. Gentleman as Mini ster, the enemy of his country, the greater his talents and po pularity the more dangerous he was, anti the more necessary to grapple with, and endeavour to unmask him in the nation. As an actor on the political stage the Right lion. Gentleman stood unrivalled, both as to the variety of parts he could assume, and his excellence in each• But the merit of an actor was no merit in a Minister; for he should appear but in one character, and that so fair and open to leave no room to hang a doubt upon ; whilst that of the Right Hon. Gentleman was neither to be kind in his conduct nor hit speeches, wherein he always charmed his hearers, and brought down thunders of applause, but as to his real policy, contrived to keep them in the dark. What stronger instance than his late speech, wherein he boasted of the applause of the whole nation, to the very echo which applauds again, whilst lie deplored her immorality, and taxed her with being ready to assist Ferdinand to strangle infant li berty in Spain. And who, but himself could understand his meaning ? Whether as the friend of liberty, to exclaim against the baseness of his country, or only as the greater.rogue, to cry oat first, and reproach the majorities of the House in like manner but in less homely terms than were said to have been used by a certain kitchen article when abusing its companion on the tire. 'rise conduct of his opponents in the Cabinet was at least open and intelligible, and in fact more wise; they saw the folly of his half measures, and the necessity of either abandoning their system, or of joining despotism to support it; in the mean time, betwixt the stools of their contention, Spain had fallen to the ground ; and England, without a change of measures,must fall at last. Never yet did she stand so degraded and despised ' in the eyes of Europe anti the world as under her present . Government, composed of parties openly professing opposite principles, whose mutual jealousy and hatred were notorious to the whole country, 'and who iiterally agreed in, nothing but to keep in place at the expence of their own honour and con sistency. A Ministry, of whom one half were endeavouring to destroy the press, whilst the other encouraged hgr de fenders ; who, for instance, had so boldly contended for the freedom of religious discussion, and so loudly condemned the Government prosecutions for libels, as the late 3lem ber for Portarlington ? whose loss was deplored in the last Session by the Liberals of the Treasury Bench, as of one of the most enlightened and valuable Members of the House; whilst the Secretary of the Home Department declared his feelings upon the subject, by rejecting the prayer of a wretched petitioner who had suffered nearly four years imprisonment for a libel not half so dangerous to the system of the Gbvernment as the last motion and speech of the late lamented Member. Or what had been the guilt of this offender compared with the author of a late political history of Ireland, which, at the present alarming crisis of that country, should be read by all who wished for real information upon the subject. He remembered at the close of a former Session meet ing-a party of the Cabinet at the Caledonian Chapel, where a popular preacher concluded one of his orations with earnestly exhorting the Ministers present to carry the Bible with them to their country seats, to purify their souls during the recess ; but considering the little benefit they had derived from the ad vice, he would re,einmend the trial of anodic,- reniedy of a more searching nature, which had been expressly prepared for their own case by the celebrated Captain Rock, being the pub lication he had alluded to ; and if this should fail to move their consciences, he knew of nothing but the liquid lake described by their Scotch Pastor, that was likely to bring them to a sense of their errors. But however that might be, he challenged them to read and answer this book, which contained a short but complete history of the causes of the present state of Ireland, and a true picture of the moral and religious feelings of the patrons of the Bible' Society. The staa grest p t h b ari uu sees der o o f f t C h l e iri 3 stAn ews it w y ith rep be ro i i n iced the High Priests ghhypri hypocrites twku would he have said to the present Gospel-teaching Ministers, who propagated his doctrines throughout the globe in the teeth ' of their conduct to that unhappy country. If further proof were wanting, what stronger than the case of the late Alia. sionary Smith ; for who, after all, were the real authors : of the insurrection at Demerara? Not the zealous Missionary; not the unhappy slaves ; nor their more unhappy_ masters, w whom, he believed, to elievedb,eifunoatnfxoriouhsumto protect anit;at lea th s e t ir for o ti v i a e es ir in terest'snthe estates they worked upon; nor hotly, (lid .he accuse ' the Military or Civil Authorities of the Settlement, placed by the Government in so cruel a state of responsibility and danger; but the Ministers themselves, who to serve theirpoli deal purposes, had encouraged these Missionaries in the teeth of their own admission of the folly anti danger of their proceed ings ; for in the la.'t Session they had de, : ired the Missioeary Smith to hav: been the cause of the insurrection, whom the Bible Society had held up as their best and 'nest exemplary agent. And what was the truth betwixt them ? The Right Hon. Gentleman, with the usual consistency of his speeches, condemn ed the Missionary as guilty, whilst he deeply lamented his fate; but in justice to the character of the deceased, he should have proved his charge and spared his lamentations,which only injured the accused by their semblance of candour. For himself he be lieved that no unprejudiced mind could have read the evidence without a conviction of the truth and sincerity of the deceased's , declarations of his innocence ; that however mistaken in his re ligious feelings, he had been actuated by a pure and disinterest ed zeal in the cause, and like the Apostles, in going forth to preach the Gospel, hid taken neither scrip nor purse. But in thus defending his moral character from the base motives whi c h passion, prejudice, or cold-blooded policy had imputed to it; he must equally avow his contempt of all these Bible Societies, which, whether comp' sed of knaves or dupes, were alike false, absurb, and dangerous to the last degree, but connived at by Ministers to eever the still greater impos.ure of their Govern ment. The Right Honourable Gentleman, to adapt his elo quence to the set rit of the times, and to tickle the Bible Society, as he had tickled his Learned Friends, by his praise of the Gallant Member for Southwark, had declared the Shibboleth of his policy; and comparing its treacherous and inhuman consequences with his far fetched story from the Bible, he could not have hit upon a Netter word ; but for his policy, he had always proclaimed it to be Mr. Pitt's system, or to quote his religious muse, " Elijah's Mantle,", which, accord ing a psalm of his own composing, had been trted by all, and fitted nobody but himself', and now at last he hail got it on his back, he found it too old and threadbare to serve his purpose, and instead of replacing it with a new one, was vainly endea vouring to repair it, but who but himself would patch an old coat with new cloth, in mending his old system with his new principles of Free Trade, which could not hold together. This fallacy had been well exposed by an Hon. Member, who main tained, that without a repeal of the Corn Laws, the attempt would ruin our manufactures—would that the judgment of the • same Hon. MeMber had been equally unbiassed upon the ques retion of that worst of impostures, the Sinking Fund, to support which the Assesed Taxes were contieued. And here he must take the liberty of reading to him his own lecture to another Hon. Member who, in the lastSeemion,had soared above all in his flight of humanity upon a question wherein he had no private interest ; but upon another question' betwisit the Brewers and the Public, stuck to the golden rule of every man for himself; so the other Hon. Member, who had fought like a lion in tile cause of the people throughout all the stages of the Corn Bill, turned tail upon the question of a sinking fund, to which he could only look with the eye of a Loan Contractor. Here lay the root of the evil, which nothing but reform could cure; for it was to this feeling of self-interest, in those who-held- the remedy -in their own hands, that all the miseries of Spain, of Ireland, and of suffering humanity throughout th e world, were mainly to be ascribed. - The Right Hon. Secretary had declared that his Shibboleth was England. Would to God it were so, anti that he would only prove it in s e tti ng t h at exam pl e o f public virtue which alone was wanting to raise her to a prouder station than she had yet filled amonst the Powers of Europe. " Oh England ! model of thy inward greatness, Like little body with a mighty heart; What might'st thou do, that honour would thee do,, Were all thy children kind and natural ;" And what prevented her, but that unnatural system of her Government, which had wasted her strength, blasted her character, and reduced her to the lowest state of moral and political disgrace. For what was her real situation, and the short answer in all the vain boastings of her Ministers? Look to her debt of 800 millions, which neither ten years of peace, nor all he retrenchments forced upon her Government, had one jot diminished; and this was the key to that new system of her policy, wherein the same Ministers who had expended millions upon millions to deliver Spain from France, and uphold the liberties of England in the general liberties of Europe, had now forsooth discovered, that her true interest was to stand alone and (as the the Right Hon. Secretary expressed) to move within the circle of her own Orbit. But for once let him quit his tropes and metaphors, and answer in plain language to the I charge of conspiracy against the liberties of his country. The Ministers, in the King's Speech, had again openly boasted of , I their friendly relations witli,...Those powers, who had as openly declared their hostility to all constitutional governments, and proved their intentions by their acts in destroying that of Spain. What then could be the basis of such friendship, but their mutual understanding and agreement upon that vital question of public liberty, - the existence of which was incom patible with the principles of the Holy Alliance stood pledged to establish; and that this was the factrhe boldly asserted, and as firmly believed; whilst of all parties concerned, the Mini sters of England stood the deepest involved in the guilt.— As to the others, with the 'exception of him whose mon strous .abuse of the power to which .his.brother legitimate* had restored him, seemed to have been ordained by Provi dence to mark the folly of their cause, and the justice Of the cause of the people ; there was not an individual .of those exalted personages whose private character, from all he had seen, heard, and believed, , he did not respect ; whilst he con sidered their political feelings to be only the natural conse quences of the mimes which had excited them ; but he could !find no excuse for those who, born in the land of liberty, edu cated in her school, and indebted to her protection for the wealth and honour they had acquired, should noiv'tlesert her cause, break clown the ladder which had raised them,and trample • on the people's heads.' But, whatever the motives of the parties for which they must answer to their God, it was their conduct the people had to look to .;" and whether the Governments of ',France and Spain, the Governments of the Holy Alliance, or abOye all,. the Government of England, he denounced the whole ai • conspirators arainst the liberties of mankind, and called Upon the ringleaders to answer to the charge. Most gravely and deliberately he .accused them of having wilfully neglected that glorious occasion which the return of peace, and the de struction.of Buonaparee's power, had affinded'ef re-establish ing the liberties of Europe upon a firm basis ; and of setting up a more dangerous and detestable tyranny in-its ; and that instead of availing themselves of that dear-bought, but invaluable lesson which the history of the French Re volution had taught both crowns and people, in pointing out to both their true interests ; once more, like their prototype Pitt, but with still less excutie, they had conspired with the Powers of Europe..against the liberties of the people, solely to prevent reform - in the abuses of their own Government. And let the people rook 'to the progress they had made._ Three years since Spain was free, and France boasted of her Charter; but now, Spain was groaning under a double sla very ; France was plainly told by her Ministers she must ex piate the crimes of her revolutionary by returning to her former state; whilst the Ministers of England, who began their part in the' performance with invectives against Bourbon treachery, and prayers for Spanish independence, were now praying in their hearts for the re-establishment of that system in France, which they found to be the only chance for the continuance of their own ; for they well knew that peace could not be maintained betwixt the twa nations without a fairer balance of the conditions of the people in both; and that neither tithes nor excessive taxation could be much longer imposed on the one, without being regenerated in the other. But if the dis tresses of the pecpJe could not move the Ministers, let them at Least turn their eyes to their own dangers, and the rotten foun dation on which their power rested, for whilst the GOvern- Ment of France rode triumphant over the people, and found it needless to dupe them longer, even with the name of their -Charter; the Ministers of England had no real power what ever, but like dishonest servants, only k:Tt in place by im posing on the credulity of their master—what better illustra tion of the strength, courage, and generosity of the nation, contrasted. with the weakness, cowardice, and baseness of her Govanment, than the act of, the Right Honourable Gen tleman, who, as one of the people, had advertised his sub scription to the relief of the Spanish Patriots, from whom, as Minister, he hal withdrawn the trifling support the Govern ment had allowed them ; and whilst thus meanly truckling .to Foreign. Powers, what greater proof of their tyranny at home, and the insolence of that faction which usurped the pOwers of the Constitution, avid lorded it equally over the Crown and the people, than that the same Sovereign, .who had proclaimed the eqieality of civil and political rights to all his German subjects, was prevented by his Ministers from doing the same justice to the Catholic population of his United Kingdom. And what was their excuse? The danger of the Protestant Religion— But was ever assertion so false, or hypocrisy so great, as that which pretended to believe it!—but which well knew that the danger was not to the Established Religion, but to an enor moue Church Establishment in Ireland, which required the expence of a large standing army to support it, in the teeth of alt justice, and true religion, and the sense and feeling of the people. As .to Catholic:Emancipation, if no other benefit was to accrue from the measure, but the transfer of the tidies collected from the Catholic people to the Catholic church, lie should consitter it an act of justice and sound policy, and ap peal to every arwient i ed the Right lion. Secretary, upon his motion to enable Catheqic Peers to sit in Parliament, to con fisl-m his own opinion ; and as to others of his piebald Cabinet who would scare the nation with the danger of Catholic As cendancy, he called upon them at once to put an end to all re ligious differences, and unite Catholic, Protestant, and Dis sliter, in their country's cause, by graciously permitting their own Sovereign to do that by the people of the United King dom, which he had done by the people of Hanover. No thing short of this multi give that strength to the Govern ment which, *matter whatever form, was essential to support it; and if such lied been the advancement of general know ledge and education, that this concession had been deemed ne cessary to the slaves of despotic Government, to whom the freedom of the press, the only real liberty, Ives still unknown, how mush more necessary to that people who, in the establish ment of their liberties, beheaded one king, dethroned another, and setup a third, to- the exclusion of the legitimate heir to time Crown, whom the voice of the people declared to have forfeited his right'? and unless, the Ministers could make up their minds to this measure, which, if not conceded, would even tually' be forced upon them, they had better at once drop the curtain upon the farce they had so lone' been playing. in that !louse, and either shut its doors, cr at least march those out of it who dared impeach their conduct, as the Deputy Manuel was marched out of the French Chamber. Sir J. NEWPORT, although he was aware that many future opportunities would present themselves to offer his feeble, but strenuous opposition to the measures alluded to in the pre , sent Address, could not mist athiressing the House at present. The Right Hon. Secretary said last night, that no Member was pledged to any specific measure by voting for the present Address, and asserted that the House would be called on to give their assent to nothing but facts. He (Sir J. Newport) denied that the statements in the Speech were facts. He denied that the Catholic Association was the cause of any disturbance in the country; bat that, on the contrary, it was the great source of tranquillity in Ireland. He would ask the Right Hon. Gen tleman at what period it was intended that these measures were to be brought forward ? It was fit and right that the House should know this, in'order that every Member might be present and prepared to speak his mind. This was a measure affecting not Ireland only,: but England also—Wean—for whatever af fected the peace of Ireland, must necessarily have an influence on that of England.—(Hear !)—He should also like to know whether any documents were to be submitted to a Committee, on whose Report a law might be based, or whether a Bill was to be introduced at once to the Uprise, without any facts hav ing been previously submitted. If there were any such papers they ought immediately to be put into the hands of Members, otherwise it would be robbing the people of the country of their right to form an opinion on the measures of their Repre sentatives. The Right Hon. Secretary had said last night, that the people were disposed to draw a li ne o f di st i nct i on b etween the English and Irish Catholics. It was to be hoped that such language had long since been p e lt an en d to. If the Catholic Association walseendged a dangerons institution, no one was to be Thanked far it except the Lord Chancellor and the Right Bon. Gentleman oppoSite (Mr. J'eel). Again and again had it been declared in both'Houses of Parliament, that the people of England did not wish to have the great bar between the re ligions of the country thrown down ; Session after Session had the Catholics been taunted and neglected, and now when they began to act for piemselves, when th e y b egan to spea k out, an d say that as theirlaighta had been disregarded they would exert themselves to obtain them, and would contribute the means from their own exhausted.purses, they were to be accused of acting illegally, and were threatened to be put down by the strong arm of the law. As to the assertion that the intended measure should effect equally silo- •Gatholie aisd irate Associations, he mild not forget what passed in ILI3, when the Right Hon. Pre; eident of the Board of Controul brought forward a measure to call from the House an expression of sentiment against those very Orange Associations, as being illegal. On the part of the Tree...wry Bench (the Right Hon. President was not then on the - Treasury Bench), it was met by the Order of the, Day, but both measures were finally withdrawn. On that occasion the present Right Hon. Secretary of State (Mr. Canning) said, " it was consolatory to reflect, that amidst all the digressions of the evening, no one had denied the illegality and bad effects of those Associations." One Noble Lord went so far as to say, that the mere expression of the sentiment of the House would he quite sufficient, and that the Associations would; cease to exist before the end of the Session. The Attorneir-General of Ireland said they wer e ill ega l , an d m i g h t be put. down by the existing laws. Yet they had not been put down, and were still in fearful activity. The laws might exist in the Satute book ; but how were they to be put in execution ? Was it to be tolerated that high law officers of the Crown should be members of these Associations ? Where was the fairness and equality of such a procedure ? No one could .point out an instance of any of the officers of the Catholic Association holding places of authority under the Crown. Great credit had been assumed by Government last night for its liberality towards Ireland. For any real liberality he was ready to be grateful ; but he could not forget the occasions and circum stances under which that liberality was shewn. The first pe riod was when a French and Spanish fleet was riding view.. rious in the British Channel.—(Hear !)—The second period v. - as in 1792, a petition from the Roman Catholics, though very mo derate in its demands, was driven from the House, almost by acclamation, hut in the next year the state of France created alarm, and the very Ministers who the year before had re jected the petition with scorn, came down to make larger grants than the Catholics themselves had requested.—(Hear !)--Let no man, therefore, be duped with the cant about liberality. It was.fear, occasioned by a large body of discontented sub jects, which produced these concessions. The Catholics were never so strong and so consolidated as at present, and the cause was to be found in the misgovernment of Ministers. He greatly lamented the course events had taken. He had lived long in Ireland, and witnessed many vicissitudes and con vulsion. His .affections, his interests, his title, all w'as wrapped up in the fate of the country, and he could not therefore but deeply - deprecate the -conduct which -Mi nisters had pursued. They. would continue to defer every 'measure of conciliation until all favourable opportunities of conferring a favour gracefully would be lost, and amidst heart burnings and discontent they would be obliged to bend to ne cessity. For 'Must:: he had spoken as he thought and as his sense of duty prompted.—Liberavi animarn ineant..--Ile could - not live much longer, and beforethe present events were passed away lie should be no more; yet were it his last dying breath he would give it as his most conscientious opinion that if Mi nister allowed the present opportunity for employing concilia tory means, to pass away, anti resorted to measures of violence, they would have to deplore the most frightful disturbances, and ultimately the loss of Ireland. _ _ Mr. Secretary PEEL hoped that he should not be accused of disrespect to the Right Hon. Baronet, if he did not follow him through all the topics of his speech, as so many other occa sions would occur for delivering his sentiments on the same to pics. By voting for the address, no man was pledged to approve of the measures afterward s to be brought forward by Ministers. Those measures would be proposed by the Government on its own responsibility. In the course of the night, the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland would . probably give notice of those measures. They would -be founded on observation of the events which had taken place in Ireland, and were not the con sequence of suggestions from any other quarter. Nothing that he had heard from the other side of the House had changed his opinion as to the necessity of submitting some specific mea sure against the Catholic Association. He could not believe that the warmest advocate for emancipation would uphold the proceedings of the Catholic Association. Every one who re spected the administration of justice, and thought that it ought to be pure, must believe that it was greatly endangered, by the principles and practice of the Association. Would the House of Commons permit that Association to levy taxes—to interfere in the execution of the laws, and to institute prosecutions ? Much had he heard about the Constitutional Association, and of its having arrogated the powers of the Atto r n e y -G e n e ral, and yet the same persons who were so very earnest in their condem nation of it, seemed to view wilt great indifference the same arrogation of powers by the Catholic Association. Every man who set any value on the popular part of the Constitution ought to protest against the assumptions of the Catholic Asso ciation. There were laws against all public bodies representing the people. The Convention had been put down by these laws, and though through an evasion this Association might escape their letter, yet they ought not to pass untouched by some other more specific enactments. He could not suppose it possible that this Association received the approbation of the whole Catholic population of Ireland. Surely they could not approve of that Address which had been published, and which called upon the people, " by the hatred they bore to Orange men," to follow a certain line•of conduct. When this Ad dress was voted, a respectable Catholic Gentlemen present im plored them to expunge the passage, but his proposition was almost unanimously rejected, and the very words stood at this moment part of the Address. He could not believe that the Roman Catholic Laity and Ecclesiastics of Ireland entertained towards their opponents and fellow subjects feel ings of such yindictive hatred. He could not and would not believe it. He had often heard it said that the acts of a few were not to be confounded with those of a general body, and now when attempts were made so to confound things, he could not but feel *Teat surprise. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. i Brougham), in his speech last night, had al luded to divisions in the Cabinet, and had said that some indi viduals would sooner sacrifice their opinions than give up their places, and that they were ready to follow the House and the country in whatever might appear to be the prevail ing opinion. Ile did not wish to speak of himself (Mr. Brougham here said, that he never meant to allude to Mr. Peel). He did not wish to separate himself from his col. leaguer. As for the Lord Chancellor, in spite of all the impu tation; throvin upon him, he would go down to posterity as the most consistent politician that ever held the Great Seal. —(Cheers.)—The whole tenor of the Noble Lord's life con tradicted the charges of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. For himself' he should take every opportunity of expressing his opinions on this question, and he trusted the Learned Gentleman would give him credit for sincerity—( Hear, hear, from Mr. Brougham).—The Right Hon. Baronet had said that he (Mr. Peel) and the Lord Chancellor were responsible for the Catholic Association, and that they had always taunted the Catholics. He was not aware of ever having done so, and had endeavoured to support his opinions by facts and fair ar guments. So should' he now Gall upon Parliament to put down the Catholic Association, which was engendering strife, and exasperating the people of Ireland. He rejected the allusion of the Hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. Hobhouse) who said that if the Association were put down by law, it would he necessary for the execution of those laws to resort to mi litary force. Ile had too good an opinion of the Catholics of Ireland to believe this, for they would render obedience to the laws without the . intirference of military power. Other occa sions would arise, to deliver himself at greater length upon this subject, and he would trouble the House when they occurred.-- (Hear, hear!) Sir J. NEWPORT explained. Mr. C. H. HUTHINSON said, that the Catholic Associa tion ought not to be regarded as the representative of the Ca- Mahe body of Ireland.—(Hear, hear !)—lt was the repre. sentative of the feelings and interests of the population, but not of the population itself. After the beautiful speech of the Right Honourable Baronet--(Cheers)--who had been for many years the champion of Ireland—(Hear, hear)--he would not say more on this subject, but begged to be understood as adopting all the sentiments which had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet. It was painful to him to dissent from the Ad dress, which was generally regarded as complimentary to the Throne, but,he should do great violence to his own feelings if he suffered the Address to be voted without entering Ids pro test against it. Ministers had put into the Speech that which was not true ; they wished to register under the authority of both Houses of Parliament a libel against the Catholics of Ireland.—( Hear n-All the valuable parts of our Constitution were gained by associations similar to the Catholic Asso ciation, and this he challenged the Right Honourable . Centle.. man to deny if he dared. It was said the Association created alarm. With whom ? Why amongst the Hon. Gentlemen op posite, and the faction which they countenanced in Ireland, and which lived upon the disturbance of the country. So long as Mr. O'Connell, and other respectable gentlemen, con tinue to trumpet forth the wrongs of the Catholics, just so long would they create alarm in the breasts of their oppressors._ He deplored any thing in the speeches of that body which gave just ground of offence to any one, as he had always *aid nothing could do the Catholic cause harm but the Ca tholics themselves. If they continued steadily to proclaim their grievance, the question would speedily be carried, and every disability, insult, and inquiry, would be effaced from the Statute-book. Until this there could be no security for the country. He protested against this declaration of war against Ireland, and he would continue to denounce it from his seat in Parliament at every peril.--(Hear !)—The system pursued towards Ireland ever since the Union had been partial and oppressive. He had constantly called the attention of Mi nisters to it, but in vain, until very recently. He hoped it might continue to improve, and ended with expressing his sent from the Address. _ _ Sir T. I.EI4IBRIDGE' said that he regarded the question of Ireland with great anxiety. He thought for the sake of Ire land and the Catholics themselves, that the Catholic Association ought to be put down by law. He thanked Ministers for inti mating t,tch an intention, and if they had not done so, the House 'ought to ?mire originated such a measure itself.- He had been surprised to hear any Gentleman attempt to excuse the acts of the Association ; for nothing could be more inconsistent and un satisfactory than these attempts. One Gentleman said it was the representation of the whole Catholic population of Ireland; ano ther said it was not; another that it was the representative of all the Catholics in the empire. He had read of the English Catholics making common cause with the Association, and thus identified they must be regarded as one. The Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Hutchinson) said they were the Representatives not of the population, but only of the feelings and interest of the population. This was a distinction so refined that he could not understand_ it. It was, in fact, n Catholic Parliament ; now one Parliament was quite as much as the British Constitu tion contemplated—(Cheers and laughter) ;—and he hoped the House would not tolerate the existence of another Parliament. —(Hear!)-- Lord Iit.JGENT said, that the Right Hon. Secretary had begun his speech with a most unhappy comparison ; one which drew him into a very gross inconsistency. The weapon he used was double edged, for if the Bridge -street Associ a ti o n was ille gal, why was nor a prosecution instituted against it? In no one instance had the Attorney-General issued a moll prosequi, to give a check to their career. If, however, the Catholic As sociation was illegal, as was alleged, why should a now law be instituted in order to put it down ? The Roman Catholics of England felt disposed to concur in feeling with the Catholic Associ a tion of Ireland, and had actually identified theriiselves hA'i with it. H Ilse would have to submit a Petition from them to t l 1 ~ House with three times the number .of signatures which hao ever before been attached to a petition from British Catholics e t which was a proof that they were not to be deterred from stands ; e t' ing forward to assert, not merely their own rights, but these o se. , A v their brethren in the Sist e r Ki ng d om . Mr. PEEL and Lard NUGEN T mutually explained. Mr. TRA NT wished to correct ane satisfy the mind . e s• s Hon. Member for Curb as to the confidenee or' English e e , lists in embarking their money in Irish speculatiente ' 'I , had the honour of attending a meetin g thi s ver yAltP.i'e , -gs • Provincial Mining Company, and assured the Hcruseto .. 1 ' proceedings went forward with en increased an i tua t t it n ee' - hi` ' ' • was not damped or checked by, anefehing which had occurred i s , either House of Parliament during the sittings of yesterday. ~ 'e Mr. DENMAN was glad that the debate had gone on.WiY's ' ' such animation,. and he trusted that if a measure of''conte - avoe, tion were adopteti against the Association, the Other Assonle" , dons would experience the- full .benefit of such a measure, ac''. cording to the tsnor of the King's Speech. if the Associatin g ) should turn' out to be contrary to law, why should the House legislate to put it down . ? He hoped the Ministers would no te resort to coercive measures, which usually began in cruelty 0 0 1 ended in injustice. He hoped they would not put it down 11 ! i violence; merely because it was hostile to the Governmen t, 1 which had never waged a tongue against the Bridge-street MO' ciation. No t that Association was encouraged and d e tendeo, ' although it was an imperium in intperio— although it usurpe d the authority of the Government, and violated the spirit of the i Constitution! yet because it played the g a me of 4 Power • • , Power ! winked at its proceedings. As for the Catholic Assn' ciation of Ireland, he could better defend their conduct than he - could that of that House—the former acted inself-defence whil e scandalously run down; but the latter were committing an out' rage against those to whom they. denied justice. The Roust o f . Commons had said, that Catholic Emancipation must efettil" ally-be carried, but it was, difficult to fix the period when they would cousent to its adoption. They were then exposing them' selves to all ether Powers, who might attempt to practise an their discontent. It must pass : but he would ask—whe' 1 bloodshed might not intervene from deferring the reasonabl e redress of heavy grievances. The present discussion might be compared td that which occurred at the commencement of the American war ; and he would now predict that they we re about not to enter into a similar war, but to bring America i° their own doors. When the Hon. Baronet 'said that he retire'. sented the people of England, while throwing down the gaunt` let against the Association, he begged to remind him that he (Mr. Denman) also knew something of the people 1 England ; and to the ignorant only be ascribed so° sentiments as those he stated. With regard to the. measures to be brought forward, he could only say, that he would be et his post, and oppose them in every stage of their progress. One Member had said, that he should expect the proofs of tha t which had been stated in the Address ; he, however, tredersto oil from the Hon. Secretary that evening, that no proofs we re to be adduced ; and that without them the sword was to "ne unsheathe d and the scabbard thrown away ; but a hop: of conciliatid il should by possibility be entertained. lie crusted that th e Member for Hertford would not give his powerful support to the measures against the Catholics, now that no proofs wer e to be adduced e at least no other than that Proclamati o , ll which had been made such u se o f, an d w hi c h h e entireil approved of, with the simple exception of the adjuratio n passage which had been turned to such good account ou di! preceding evening. They were to have no other ground-wors for their enactments than Newspaper report, which the Honour; able Gentleman, the Attorney-General f o r I re l an d, woo l I tell them they should be cautious of trusting to. Much had been said about the interference of the Priesthood, although j e t , this country there wer e S oc i e ti es f or the Prosecution o f , Felons; and other societies, which were op e n to all classes 0 ' his Majesty's subjects to become members of; anti why iv: r° Priests to be excluded from all rights of citizenship ?—(1/ 01. :: hear l)—He• had heard of the thunder on the pisicedhhh evening, but here was a Jupiter about to use his thund'l against the Catholics without hearing them in their d e ' fence. He (Mr. D.) hoped there would be no division on the Address ; bet if there should be, lie-could not conscientiouslY approve of it. With respect to the Association, lie would sal' that it was the least formidable mode of proceeding which the Catholics could have adopted ; and to check its progress Wou l ! have a peculiar tendency to a ggr a v a te th e i r di s t resses , i r ritate their feelings, and render the situation of the empire nitinite i r more precarious.—( Loud cheering.) Mr. It. MARTIN bore testimony as to the send:went - t oe the Catholics of Galway in particular, and of Ireland geii,F:' rally, which were, closely identified in feeling with the Catlion' Association. That Association was given birth to almost en' tirely by the Chancellor of England. The Catholics of ire'' land could not b u t re p ro b a t e t h ose w h o h a d re f use d to do tlhae for the loyal C a tholic s o f England which had been done W . ,' , themselves, whose loyalty w a s much more equivoc a l. 'Thee concluded that the man who could act thus, would not hes t ' tate, if he dared, to re-enact the Popery L a ws, an d once 11""". deprive thsni of those privileges of which they were then hei l ; pily in possession. The lion. G en tl eman t h en conten d e d, the the Catholic Priesthood claimed no such power as that of the remission of sins; their form of doing so was nearly theist° as that of the Church of England, and was in _common Pe t : lance, " I forgive y ou , a penitent." He trusted no violen t measures would he resorted to against the Association. Sir H. PARNELL wished to give his testimony as to th e. feelings of the Catholics of Ireland, and lis could assure i" House that they placed the most implicit confidence in the A''',. sociation ; the most perfect union prevailed in order to suPP°' it, and the Catholic Nobility were large subscribers toils fund''' The Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs had rested his whole t' case on the fact that there was no identific at io n b e t wee n '' Catholic People and the Association, but such was not. the faehs and identified as they were, in reality lie hoped that Ministers would beware of the extent to which they were driving matt in that country. The Catholics hitherto had m e t no t on ly Wi t t denial, but a new mode was about to be rdopted, and aggressio n ' was to be added to their other glievances. Mr. M. FITZGERALD had never estimated highly the e knowledge possessed by Ministers w ith respect to I re l an d, bit _ g " in no former instance had that igno ra n ce b een so gross es w'ee. at present displayed. Great danger did certainly attach to tee Catholic Association of Ireland, for if it was not-in law a retire" sentation of the Catholics, it was in feeling. The adheren ce to it by all classes was undivided, 'and it was therefore pref." . nant with danger, for they were - numerous, being rio less tbsi s ' six millions, and possessed feeling which no honest Engli -j : man could condemn—but he would ask; was that danger- t'' - be increased by driving them to desperation, and yet such lf ' feared would be the case. On no occasion had he ever 8U . dressed that House with suc h d es p on di ng f ee li ngs as e t tha t moment, understanding as he' did that it was the inie n ‘ tion of Ministers to put down the Association at all h?,', =eds. Under these imp ress i ons h e wou ld b e di s h ones t if 1 suffered th a t n i g ht t o p ass w i t h out enter i ng hi s protest aga inst that portion of the Address u recommendin summary measurt' S against the Association. Mt had been g said of tire Catholi c rent, which had been denominated revenue, although e t, l ' s mighty sum of 9,0001. fo r med the e xtent of th e i r funds. 'I ; Methodist conf ere n ce co ll ec t e d sums t o w hi c h t h at was a Me r i • trifle ; and as to influence, they sh e w e d th e ex t en t t o w hich 1 ., could be exerted in the c a s e of th e Mi ss i onar y S m i t h. H e hel l heard with awe the close of the speech of his Hon. Friend (Sit; J. Newport) who predicted that the projected measures wool° be regretted when he should be no more—a period which dist House and the country would have reason to regret ; and he fully coincided in that prediction, viewing the Catholic cau s e ' henceforward as completely hopeless. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that if -ate Catholic AsSeciati e , n e had acted as the representatives of the Catholics, they *ono' have been open to the operation .of the Convention act. Il e s had never said that they were such. What he said was, tha t they were virtual representatives, Mr. BUTTERWORTH said, that the Methodist societr levied no revenue,. what they received were all voluntary sub scriptions. He kn ew th a t man y P ro t estan t s h a d l ost their business in Ireland for not subscribing to the Catholic rent. The Report was here brought up. . Mr. HUME intended moving an Amendment to the Addreset which he was only deterred from doing by the state of the House' He had never witnessed any Members so humbled and so de graded as they were by the measures they were about to adoPt' e . ' The Catholics had been trampled upon, because they had been • too long quiet. -.Oppression might be borne to a certain e% - tent, but beyond that resistance must ensue; and the! . , should recollect that they sa t i n th a t H ouse b y v i rtue vi - resistance to oppression on the part of their ancestorses d , . He could not consent to an increase in the army; i l l 1792. it had been only 33,000 strong . I n 1821 he 'Le' himself moved that it should be reduced from 36 to 76,0ew men, but, instead of reducing, he perceived they were about in increase it. Though he would not then propose his amend' • ment, yet, on every future occasion, he would oppose th e Speech—(a laugh) —if lie 'did not like it, and take the same • of the House upon.it, even on the first night of the Session. Sir C. FORBES b e li eve d t h at Mi n i sters were unacqua i nte d with the dangers attendant upon a Burmese war : the marshes which the troops had to encounter were as fatal as the swords of the enemy, and of the last force sent no less than 1500 were sent to the hospitals. He had heard with satisfaction that t he ~ army was to be increased for the purpose of carrying on the war in India . Instead, hoWeVer, of 15,000 men , they should - * send 40 or 50,000, for the purpose of quickly effecting the ter': mination of the war. Mr. C. W: WYNNE said, that the war was provoked by the; Burmese, by unwarrantable demands and aggression s , and no other course cou ld . b e a d opte d. B y recent accounts, the skit: ness at Rangoon had been much diminished, and no blame could . be attributed to - the Governor-General for not providing against such unforeseen calamities. Alderman HEYGATE thought it was incumbent on till