The Sun. — London, England, 1831-07-28 00:00:00

the expedieucy of disfranchising the boroughs in schedule A, but not those in schedule B. The boroughs in sche dule B. had nothing to do with the principle of disfran chising nomination boroughs ; because if they were nomi nation boroughs, they ought, according ro the principle of the Bill, to be entirely disfranchised.—(Hear, hear.) tf the boroughs in schedule I 3 were to be retained) it was bet ter that they should have two Members than one. If a new representative system were to tee framed, he would ra ther have one hundred boroughs r eturning two Members each, than two hundred returning only one Member each, He thought that the former plan was best calculated to preserve local tranquillity, by allowing each party to netel one Member. He now entreated lion. Members tvl o were friendly to the principle of the Bin cot to regard the pletlh;es which they might have given, but to attend to what he was about to state, and to consider well whether it Was - worthy of attention. He would for the sake 4 argument assume, that the decision to which the Committee came last night would be c nnfirmel by the deliberate vote of the House, and that 156 boroughs, and 111 Members, teem, for the future, to be utterly abolished, and struck out of the representative syeteen of England. In order t o s h ow in what manner this act of disfranchisement would operate he would divide England into two districts, the character of each of which was essentially different from the other. He held in his hand a small map which had been lately published, entitled " A Map, showing the places in Eng land and Wales sending Members to Parliament heretofore, with the alterations proposed to be made by the Bill for amending the representation." In this map he would draw a line, not exactly across the centre of the country, but from the indenture made in the coast by the Severn to the indenture made on the opposite cnast by the Wash. This line would leave Lincolnshire: to the north, and the county of Norfolk to the south. A line drawn froth this point to Bristol would effect the division to which be wished to direct the attention of the House. Title line was not a fanciful one, hut one which divided with tolerable accuracy the agricultural from the manufacturing districts. On the north of this line were situated the great coal fields of England, with all the manufactures which depended on them- Taking this line for his guide, he would at tempt to prove that the Bill gave an immense prepon derance to the northern or manefecturing district, and greatly and unduly lessened the weight and distinc tion of the southern district, which comprised the chief agricultural counties of England. If he should succeed in doing this, he trusted that the House would see the policy of enacting that the boroughs in schedule B should be al lowed to ecnd two Members instead of one, as a counter poise to the undue weight which the Bill proposed to give to the northern district. Without indulging in loose de clamations, he would proceed to establish by proofs which he thought no one could call in question his allegation. In the northern division which was effected by the line he had laid dowu, the following seventeen counties would be found ; namely, Northumberland, Cumberland, Durham, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cheshire, Derbyshire, Nottingham shire, Leicestershire, Staffordshire, Shropshire, Worces tershire, Warwickshire, Herefordshire, Westmoreland, Lin colnshire, and Rutland. The four last might be considered agricultural counties, but the first thirteen were the chief teats of English manufactures. To the south of the line were the agricultural counties—namely, Hertfordshire, Norfolk,'Suffolk, Cambrit'leshire, Buckinghamshire, North amptonshire, Huntingdonshire, E-sex, Bedfordshire, Glen cesterehire, Oxfordshire, Somersetehire, Wiltshire, Berk.. shire, Middlesex, Surrey, Kent, Sussex, Hampshire, De vonshire, Cornwall, and Dorsetshire. He would now show bow the Bill affected the two great divisions of the country which he had described to the House. Schedule A com prised fifty-six boroughs, returning 111 Members. How were these boroughs situated with respect to the districts north and south of the line ? The district north of the line lost only five boroughs, out of the fifty-six.—(Hear.) The district to the south of the line lost fifty-one. The district to the north of the line lost ten Members, and the district to the south lost 101.—( Hear, hear.) So much for schedule A. He now came to schedule B, in which 41 boroughs were included. At the commencement of the discussion last night, this schedule contained only 40 boroughs, but after the decision of the Committee with respect to Saltash, he might fairly assume that it now comprised 41 boroughs. Out of these 41 boroughs eight were to the north of the line, and 33 to the south.— (Hear, hear.) By the combined operation of schedules A and B, the manufacturing district lost 18 Members, and the agricultural district lost 134.—(Hear.) He was aware that the reply which he should receive on this point, and of which, perhaps, the Noble Lord was then busy taking a note, was, that though these boroughs were situated in the agricultural division of the kingdom, they did not return Members in the agricultural interest, but, according to his (Sir Robert Peel's) principle, were the means by which men connected with the monied interest and with the colonies obtained admission to the House, and that therefore he should not speak of their disfran chisement as a positive loss to the agricultural district. He did not deny that there was considerable weight in this argument; but then it by no means applied to the po sition which he had taken up on the present occasion, which was, that the 41 boroughs in schedule 13, with the new constituency which it was proposed to give them, and which would destroy their character as nomination boroughs sbould be allowed to return two Members each. He had shown the effect of the destructive clauses of the Bill; he would now refer to the constructive clauses. Here he found no comp , nsatien for the loss which the destructive clauses occasioned to the agricultural division. Schedule C contained twelve new boroughs, each of which was to return two Members. Every one of these new boroughs, with the exception of the metropolitan district and of the town of Dcvonport, was in the northern divi sion. —(Hear.) It was clear that the return of Members for the metropolitan district would be an injury instead of an advantage to the agricultural interest. 'I he Bill created twenty-six new boroughs with one Member each, and of these twenty-four were to the north of the line, and two to the south.—(Hear.) He had hoped that these two would at least be of some advantage to the agricultural in terest ; but what was his disappointment when, on looking at the clause, he found that in these instances the privilege of representation was conferred on Cheltenham and Brighton ? The result of his statement was, that the southern division of the kingdom sustained a total loss of 134 .Members, whilst the northern division sustained a loss of only eighteen. On the other hand, the southern district gained seven Members,and the northern district thirty-three. If the House would accede to his proposition, and give two Members to the boroughs contained in schedule 8., the agricultural interest would possess its due weight in the representative system. At all times it. was necessary to protect the agricultural interest from the augmenting influence of the manufacturing districts. The constitu ency of populous places had greater power of combining than the scattered constituency of agricultural districts. The influence of the Press and of cicha was much more powerful amongst the former than amongst the latter body. He was aware that there were anomalies in the present system of representation, but they had existed for centu ries. No such excuse could be made for the anomalies which disfigured the new system.—(Hear, hear.) He and others had argued that the destruction of nomination boroughs would prevent the introduction of men of talent into the House; but he did not mean to deny that men of talent would find their way into the House under the new system. On the contrary, he thought it would bring into the House men of tremendously active talent, and he feared they would feel too strong a desire to recommend themselves to their constituents to allow theta to interpose their reason between the deliberations of Parliament and, he would not say popular clamour but, temporary popular feeling.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that under the new system of representation proposed by the Go vernment, men of great experience in public life, but of retired habits (and as one of that class he might mention Mr. Sturges Bourne), would shrink from the election contests which the Bill would produce.— Such were the combined considerations en which he most earnestly entreated the House to pause, and to inquire whether or no they might not, consistently with the prin ciple of the Bill, suffer those forty boroughs which were included in schedule B to retain the right of sending two Members to Parliament. But, above all things, he would entreat and implore of the House not to innovate and de stroy further than was absolutely necessary.—(Hear, hear.) He besought gentlemen not to be too active in the work of destruction.—(flear, hear.) The very extensive destruc tion which was effected last night must call upon those who were the most ardent in the cause of Reform, to pause and ask themselves seriously, whether the system of the representation of this country was really so bad, was re ally so defective, as to call for a farther and a more sweep ing destruction ?—(Hear.) He had thus spoken in defence of his long-established opinion ; and in support of the soundness of that opinion he was happy he had it in his power to cite a living witness. He alluded to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir J. Macintosh, we believe); and, without meaning to claim his vote, or to taunthirn with inconsistency—not insinuating or asserting that the Right Hon. Gentleman might not have seen reason to change his opinion, if changed it bad been—be would. plaim upon re cord, in that House, the eloquent truths which that Right Hun. Gentleman had sent forth. When the Right Hon. Gentleman was writing rather on the philosophy than on the facts of history, he observed, that " in former a reci itate de times, when men were either clraimwinereg insi p sting p on their parture from ancient form, t o . rigid administration, their obj ect was always effected with refusence to a wide survey of t..ociety. A constitution could not he framed all at once, according to a given mo del ; but all its forms and powers must grow up from time and circumstances. That bundle of usages which eras tilts collected was made matter of respect and homage, in all instances, before it was recognized and enforced as part of the constitution. Government is not like a machine, or a system that could be moulded and conducted, in all its parts, according to a previous design, by the art and labour of man. It ought rather to be compared with the progress of vegetables or animals. These, by skill and care, might be brought to the greatest perfection ; but they might be ruined by neglect, or destroyed by Violence. By neither could they be strengthened or improved." These were undoubted tenths ; and if the existing form of Govern nicht derived strength from otcaeiottal and gradual altera tions—if it were not like a machine or building, which man might conduct, but rather like a production of vege table or animal life, which might be improved by skill and care, but must be injured by neglect or violence,—then he would call on the House to he cautious in relying too much on their own wisdom, and in distrusting too much the wisdom of past ages, by rashly overthrowing ancient and establish e d usages.—(Hear, bear.) He entreated them to ben are how they carried their efforts too far with reference to this Bill, and to consider whether, by passing it, they would not be sapling the foundation of •that happiness and prosperity, which,however impel feet the Constitution might be., they had hitherto enjoyed under it.—( Hear, hear.) Lord ..1. RtISSELL meant to confine himself simply to one proposition, which had been put forward by the Right lion. Baronet,—namely, that the whole of the boroughs in schedule B should continue to return two Members. He was not prepared to select one as a preferable number, — a fact which w ts clear front the means , e itself, inas much as the scale of this Bill, if passed, would generally give two Members. When, however, the Right Hon. Baronet objected to allowing these boroughs to return only one Member each, the House would recollect, that in some of the greatest changes which had ever taken place in the Government of this empire—be alluded to the union with Scotland and Ireland,—presided over anti directed as those changes were, by individuals of great fame and celebrity as statesmen,—it was remarkable that in the se changes, the voters were only allowed to send one Member to serve in Parliament. The Right Hon. Baronet too was of opi nion, that the conceding of only one Member to a borough would cause the most violent contests. Experience, how ever, led him to arrive at a different conclusion. In the city of Dublin, which returned two Members, there had been snore bitter and angry election contests than had ever taken place in the city of Limerick, which returned but one Member. The opinion that the election of one Mem ber would give rise to severe contests, partook, lie con ceived, of an unfounded fear. He believed that, in prac tice and reality, those contests would be found to prevail more often in places having the privilege of sending two Members, than in those where the privilege was restricted to one. The question was, whether the parties in any given place were very nearly balanced. Whenever that was the case, a contest was sure to follow; because the majority would never be con tented unless they could send two Members to Parliament, while the minority would struggle hard at least to send in one. That was the fact with respect to the county of Bedford ; tte parties there were nearly balanced ; and he believed that there were more contests in that county, with its two Members, than in any place in England, Scot land, or Ireland, sending only one Member to Parliament. The Right Hon. Baronet then passed to another point. He said that the House would do a great injury and injustice by selecting many Members from places lying on one side of a line, which be indicated, while very few were taken from the other side of the line, the counties on the one side being agricultural, and on the other manufacturing. It might be answered to this, that the persons thus alluded to were not the Members for counties, but the represen tatives of certain interests, who found their way through those avenues to that House. But, said the Right Hon. Baronet, " see how your new system will work. Amer sham, and the rest of the boroughs, whether subject to nomination or not, not only reprgtented particular in terests, but did also, to a certain extent, repre sent the counties to which they belonged ; and that source of representation would now be cut away." But the Right Hon. Baronet ought to recollect, that by the new system, four additional Members would be given to Cornwall, Dorsetshire, and Wiltshire, and to several other counties in the south and west of England. A ; erfectly sufficient number of Members was left to represent Cornwall, as that place would, under the Bill, be in the possession of 12 representatives. Cornwall was one of those counties which Ministers thought it necessary ' to despoil more than any. other, having been deprived of 30 Members ; yet the Hon. Member for Truro admitted that it would be better represented under this Bill than it was when it sent 42 Members to Parliament. Ministers had been accused with having unduly and unfairly en riched Durham, in comparison with Cornwall. Now how stood the fact ? Cornwall contained 257,000 inhabitants, and Durham 205,000. The former retained 12 Mem bers, or including Saltash, 13 ; and the latter would send nine Members to Parliament, being in fair and exact proportion with the population. He did not mean to assert that all those counties received exactly all that their wealth or population might demand. But Ministers, in stead of taking the course which the Right Hon. Baronet recommended,—that of carrying their scale more to the south and west,—looked rather to the great population of the northern counties. They found that Lancashire con tained more than a million of inhabitants, while Dorset shire had only a population of 140,000. Therefore Lan cashire was allowed 19 Members, while Dorsetshire would send only nine, being little more, in the former instance than two to one. He therefore contended that the la't charge that ought to be made against Ministers was, that they bad neglected the interests of the southern or western counties, or that they had overlooked the agricultural districts. Theirs was a real plan of Parliamentary Reform. They wished to give to those vast depots of manufacturing wealth, which during the last thirty years had been constantly in creasing, that importance to which they were entitled. The individuals connected with them were in the habit of trading with every quarter of the world : they kept up the relations of this country with every portion of the globe; they were, wheresoever they went, admired for their mechanical skill, and envied for their increasing and secure prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) Having found their way into every pert of the habitable world,—having for years maintained the character and power of this country, yet, strange to say, they had never found admittance into that House, which should have been their proper place.— (Hear.) They ought to have been in that House, assist ing in the representation of the people of England, and legislating for a great, mighty, powerful, and commercial country.—(Hear.) In proceeding as they had done, Mi nisters felt that the representation should not he a repre sentation of any particular el iss of men, strongly addicted to a specific set of opinions. They thought that if they adopted such a course, those so selected might give to the machine of Government an impetus and a velocity not consistent with the established state of things. Therefore it was that they stopped their career at a particular point, and had laid down a line beyond which they would not go. There were forty boroughs in this schedule which would send one Member each to Parliament, and there were thirty others that would still return two Members. These latter did not contain any great body of constituents, hut• still they would send Members to Parliament to represent certain portions of the people, veto had as fair a right to be represented in that House as any other body. By taking this course, he believed that they would add to the stability of the representation, and that they would obtain an equilibrium which was not to be found in any other scheme of legislation which Ministers could devise. They had left to the boroughs in this schedule the right to send one Member each to Parlia ment. They bad not, in doing this, acted from partial or personal views, but because they thought it right and just to stop where they conceived that total disfranchise mint was no longer necessary. The Right Hon. B eronet had argued that, under the new system, persons of retired habits would not .find their way into that House. Now really a person must be of very retired habits indeed, if he could not summon sufficient resolution to ask for the suffrages of electors. The Right Hon. Baronet had men tioned Mr. Sturges Bourne in support of his argument. ' But he could see no reason why Mr. Sturges Bourne could not ask for the suffrages of the voters at Lymington, Christ-church, or any other place in Hampshire, in order that he might come into Parliament to support their in terests. He admitted that if such great counties as Lan cashire or Yorkshire were only to be represented, then men who might be of great service in that House would undoubtedly be excluded. But while such places existed as those to which he had alluded, he could not imagine that gentlemen would be unable to present themselves be fore a small number of electors, varying perhaps from 100 to 300. In consequence of the existence of those small boroughs, individuals could easily find their way into that House, at the same time that the country would get rid of a very great grievance—he meant the nomina tion boroughs. The purchase of seats, and the general system of bribery, would be done away, and Members re o se ppo nta r t t i u v n e i s ty .f o t f he ov peo erp i r e. e sent in for insignificant an d i ncons id era bl e p l aces wou ld 1 n v o o t l i o n n g g t e t e have thee e —rin(glleaanrd.)out- Sir R. PEEL said, the Noble Lord seemed to have mis understood one part of his argument. The Noble Lord cotild sec no reason why 111 r. Sturges Bourne should aot ask for the suffrages of the electors of Lymington. Now what he (Sir R. Peel) said was, that these few places were the only ones to which men of retired habits would repair in order to effect their return to Parliament ; and there fore he contended that they ought to be allowed to send two Members instead one. Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the numberof Members allowed under that clause would be fully sufficient for all the gentlemen of retired habits.—(A laugh.) Mr. SADLER complained, that Ministers and their adherents were going to dispose, by wholesale, of the just rights and privileges of all those who were connected w i t h these boroughs. The argument which bad been recently made use of by the Right Hon. B worst, the more it was examined would les found to be the more incontrovertible. The plan adopted by his Majesty's Ministers was partial and unjust, whether it was viewed with reference to th e agricultural and commercial classes of society, or whether they took the distinction between town and country pip it _ lation. Look at the census to which so many references hail been made, and they would find that the town po pulation did trot amount to more than 4,500,000 persons, whereas the rural population amounted to upwards of 7,000,000.---(Hear, hear, hear.) Suppose that prop- rty was selected as the basis of this new Constitution; h ow , he demanded, did that stand ? how did it bear on the question ? The houses, according to the last retur n of property, averaged 15,000,000/. per annum, while the land reached 30,000,000/. per annum.—(Hear.) Again, if they looked to contribution, they would find the same inequality. The houses in this kingdom, including m ill s and manufactories, according to the last report made to that House, paid 2,000,000/. to the poor-rates, while the land paid no less than 6,Boo,oo ol .—(Hear, hear.) What, then, was the national course for thus, to pursue who were nowattacking the Constitution with such zeal ? They ought to have done that which they hal ne glected and refused to do—they ought to have laid before Parliament some just, clear, and intelligible plan, instead of a scheme which was absurd and c ontradictory. Th e gentlemen opposite called this measure an adjustment of the system of representation ; but let the House see what was the nature of this adjustment. It reeve, he believed, 300 Members to the towns, and about 150 to the country population—that was to say, it adjusted the representation in such a manner that one body should have just half as much of it and no more, us the other holy had.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Such was the iniquitous career—for iniquitous career he must call it—which the Government was pursuing. He well recollected that in the treatise on Government which Algernon Sydney wrote shortly before his death, that martyr of liberty passed a high culogium upon the state of representation in his own country, ob serving that, whereas in Westminster the right of voting was in every inhabitant, in the city of London it was with the Common Council only, in some parts of the country in close corporations, in others in burgage tensnts, and in other places in different persons, so that every class and in terest of the community found itself represented in the House of Commons. (" Hear, hear," from the Opposi tion.) This Constitution, however, which had been the admiration of real lovers of liberty, which hail constituted the happiness of this country, and which had been a model to the world, was now to give way for the hatey, crude, and new-fangled system of representation which had been invented by the gentlemen opposite.—(Cheers from the Opposition, and laughter from the Ministerial benches.) The gentlemen opposite had called themselves lovers of liberty, and hail been constant in urging upon the House the beauty and the wisdom of the doctrines which gave freedom and liberty to the people; but was their love of liberty—were their doctrines of freedom for the people—come to this, that none oh their fellow-subjects who could not affix , ' to spendla a-year upon a house, should be allowed to exer cise the dearest right of a freeman—the right of voting at the election of representatives to serve in Parliament ? He contended, that a measure which left out the great mass of people as this measure did, could not have emanated from any real friends of the people; and he would contend, farther, that this measure drew much more largely upon the doctrine of virtual representation than the old system had drawn upon that doctrine. He had heard, again and again, the authority of Cromwell's Reform cited in support of this measure ; but the Noble Lord who had cited that Reform bad seemed to have forgotten that the basis of that Reform was, in the first place, property, and in the second place, only, population. Cromwell, he believed, had given to that House 156 Members from the towns, and 344 from the county population. These were, as well as he recollected, the numbers, but not twine prepared for this discussion, he could not pledge himself to having stated them quite accurately. This plan, then, of Cromwell was just the reverse of the plan of the Noble Lord. He fully concurred with the Right Hon. Baronet. that places which returned Members at all ought to return two Members. He thought that the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet in support of that position had been unanswerable. He was sure, too, that all history proved that it was not good that none but the mere numerical majority should have any chance of success in a deliberative assembly. He re gretted to see that the Noble Lord oppsite was impatient while he (Mr. Sadler) was delivering these observation s .— (Hear, and laughter.) He had, however, no disposition to take up the time of the Howe unnecessarily. And here allow him to say, that so far from there being any div e _ sition on his side the House to delay the Bill unnecessarily, or to offer any factious opposition to the Bill, the fact was, that there were very many of them who had been most anxious to deliver their opinions upon the principle of the Bill, but who had found no opportunity of being able to do so.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He verily l lieved, in his conscience,that these accusations of unnecessary delay and factious opposition had been made for no other purpose than to anticipate those complaints which were ex pected, because they might have been so justly made, of the haste and hurry with which the Ministers had urged on the Bill.— (Cheers from the Opposition , and " Oh, oh," and laughter from the Ministerial benches.) This Bill had already been many times altered, and must 3' ill be materially altered in many of its clauses before it could be rendered accept. able to the people or even pra ticable. Would any one say that such a measure did not require deliberate consi deration ? Besides, it was a measure of injustice, a n d they who were the victims of that injustice were naturally indignant. For his own respectable constituents, allow him to say that they were deeply sensible of the initneasur able wrong which was done them by this Bill.—(Cheers from the Opposition, and laughter from the Ministerial Benches.) A wrong it was, in flagrant violation of the law of the land, and of the common principles of justice. But this would come home to their own door—to the door of those who were now busy in the infliction of the wrong. They had told the people that rights were to be regulated by numbers, and thus they had established a kind of poll. tical sliding-rule. How could they in future resist the demand of the population of a large town that the popu lation of a smaller town should not be placed on the same footing with them in the return of Members to Parlia ment? He had not intended to take up so much of the time of the Committee, but he must say that he thought the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet worthy of the most serious attention of the House. He would not detain the Committee longer now, but he should take another opportunity of expressing his sentiments both upon the principles and the details of the Bill. Mr. DOMINICK BROWNE bad not hitherto ad dressed the House, because he hail not thought it right for an Irish Member to put himself forward upon the English measure of Reform. What he had seen last night, how. ever, had induced him no longer to remain silent. --He had last night seen the borough of Saltash transferred from schedule Ato schedule B. Now if, of those things which he could not swear to, there win one of mote notoriety to him than another, it was that some twenty years ago the borough of Saltash had been sold for 12,0001. for the life of an individual. He could not understand why such a borough should have been saved. The Hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr. Sadler) had that night dealt in statistics, and upon that subject he always heard the Hon. Member with pleasure. The Hon. Member, too, hail told them, that the basis of what he called the new Co nstitu- tion ought to be population and taxation—not population alone. Now, he begged to ask that Hun. Member who was so anxious to save the boroughs in schedule B, what propor tion those boroughs bore, in population and taxation, to the comainnity at large. According to the census of 1831, the population which ought to return one Member, would be 24,000, and the population which ought to return two Members 48,000. The assessed taxes amounted to about 5,000,0001., and there were 500 English Members, so that a population, to return one Member, ought to pay about 10,000!. of the assessed taxes. Now he would put it to the lion. Member for Aldborough, which of the bo roughs in schedule B contained either 24,000 inhabitants or paid 10,0001. in taxes 2—(Cheers.) For his own part he should have been inclined to have carried the scale o f population a great deal higher than the Ministers had car ried it, and should have been happy to have transferred every borough in schedule B to schedule A. He, how ever, thanked the Ministers for the Bill such as it was, but he begged to tell the Hon. Member for Aldborough that his speech had demonstrated that the anomaly of the Bill, as to property and population, consisted, not in the Bill going too far, but in not going far enough.—(Hear-) Mr. WASON would not trouble the Committee with many words, but being prepared with a few facts, which he thought were worth a great deal more than the speech of the Hon. Member for Aldborough, he was anxious to state those facts to the House. Of the boroughs in ache yule B, 39 contained together only .)0,000 inhabitants; paid only 32,2511. of the assessed taxes, and poVasessed only 4,918 10/. houses. They would, under this Bill, have only 12,000 voters. and would return one-sixteenth of the Members of the House.—(Hear, hear.) Sir T. FREMANTLE had not heard one ground ad duced for the disfranchisement of the boroughs in this schedule. There might have been some reason for the dis franchisement of the boroughs in schedule A, but he could not see on what principle it was that these boroughs should be deprived of one of their Members. if they were nomi nation boroughs, they ought to be totally disfranchised as those in schedule A had been ; and if they were nut nomi nation boroughs, then some reason ought to be given why they were not to be allowed to return two Members each as heretofore. He did not see bow the Ministers could extricate themselves from this dilemma. As Members need not now apprehend being sent back to their con: stituents for mooting the question, he begged to remind them that the subject now under discussion involved the question of whether the numbers of the House should not be diminished. They had List night completed the work of getting rid of 111 Members, which number was all they wanted to bestow upon the large towns, and other places. Thus, then, the main object of the Bill was answered, and why, he wou'd ask, should they go any farther? He thought that if there were any independent Member in the House who had not pledged himself to " the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing Lut the Bill," such Member might safely divide in favour of the Right Hon. Baronet's amendment, without infringing the principle of the Bill. Mr. EWART contended that the principle on which it was proposed to deprive these boroughs of returning one Member in future to that House had been so Ire- quently explained, that it could be of no use to explain it again to gentlemen who still were, or pretended to be, ignorant of it. He thought that the Ministers had acted most wisely in tempering innovation with a certain degree of respect fir deep-rooted prejudices and ancient usages. The lien. Member for Iloroughbridge, and others on that side of the House, ILA indulged in lengthy and sympathe tic lamentations for the voters who were to he disfran chised, but they had no pity for the thousands of their fellow-subjects who, by the unjust and unequal laws of this country, had hitherto been altogether denied the en joyment of the elective franchise, though they had been made to contribute large and heavily towards the exigencies of the State.—(Cbters.) To past injustice these gentle men shut their eyes, and, confining their observations to the present moment, they did not see the prospective ho. pruvementa which must result from the admission of the substantial and respectable classes of the community into the constituency of the land.—(Cheer'.) When the lion. Altmber talked of Algernon Sydney being friendly to the corruptions which had since his time grown up in the representative system, the Hon. Member must suppose that his audience knew nothing of that celebrated man. The events el Algernon Sydney's time proved that the people were then fairly represented, and that the encroach ing power of the aristocracy, and the practice of bribery, had not yet created nomination and corrupt boroughs.— (Cheers.) Had Algernon Sydney lived to see the rise and operation of this lawless and unconstitutional controul, and of these disgraceful practices in the representative sys tem, the just and honest indignation to which he would have given utterance would have prevented his ever bring praised by the Hon. Member for Aldborough.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet, too, bad made a quotation from the work of the Right Hon. Gentleman who usually sat on that (the Ministerial) side of the House; but allow him to say that, looking at the aspect of the times, and at the declared wishes of the nation, he considered that quotation to be in favour of, and not against, the Ministerial mea sure of Reform. Lord EASTNOR thought the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet a great improvement in the Bill. He con fessed that he bad been long opposed to any general mea sure of Reform ; but he assured the Committee that be fore the present Ministry caw into office, he had come to an opinion that a Reform in the representation was ne cessary. He should have been glad, therefore, if he had been able, as he hoped he should be, to support the mea sure of Reform introduced by this Ministry ; but when he saw it, be found it effected so sweeping a change, such a rooting up of ancient foundations, that he found he could not, consistent n ith what he felt it to be his duty, give it his support. He thought that by the preservation of these boroughs, they would preserve in some degree that balance which had maintained the equilibrium of the Constitu tion ; and he was of opinion, that by thus in pat t dis franchising them, they would take away from that due proportion of influence which the agricultural influence ought to possess. They had been told that the additional number of county Members would make up for any loss which the agricultural influence might experience in this instance, but he did not think so, and under such circum stancis he should certainly support the amendment pro posed by the Right Hon. Baronet. Mr. CRESSET PELHAM said, that his Majesty's Ministers were evidently treading in the steps of Cromwell. He would recommend them to adopt the advice of Al gernon Sydney, and to follow a more moderate course of proceeding. The Committee then divided— For the amendment Against it Majority for Ministers ---67 The original motion teas then put and carried. On our return to the gallery we found the Chairman putting the question, " That the borough of Aldborough, Yorkshire, stand part of schedule B." Mr. SADLER did not believe that the whole of Eng- land could furnish a more respectable class of constituents than existed in this borough. He contended that it should be taken out of the schedule, and that the privilege of re turning two Members should be still continued to it. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that all the electors in Ald borough, as well as Boroughbridge, who had an opinion of their own to give, had expressed themselves in favour of the Reform Bill. If they disfranchised this borough alto gether, they would not deprive the constituents there of a franchise which they had ever been &lowed to exercise with freedom. Ile must say, that he for one regretted that his Majesty's Ministers had taken this borough out of schedule A.—(Hear, hear.) If it were not too late to put it hack again into that schedule, he would move that it should reinstated there.—(Cheers.) It was the greatest farce in the world to talk of this borough as possessing a population which should entitle it to be exempted from the operation of this Bill. That population could only be made out for it by culling it from four or five adjoining pa rishes, which had a population in 1521 which they did not possess. He would defy any set of Parliamentary com missioners to find a constituency of 300 electors in Ald borough. It would be a most monstrous thing that the country gentlemen and farmers in the neighbourhood of this borough should be deprived of their -votes for the county on account of the preservation of this rotten stinking borough of Aldhorough. It would be perfectly monstrous and nonsensical to e ntertain such a proposition as that. If the Hon. Baronet (the Member for Westminster) were in his place, he could prove that the seats for this borough had been bought and sold, for that the Hon. Baronet had himself purchased his seat for this borough during the minority of the Noble Duke to whom it belonged. This Was one of those boroughs which, according to the pre amble of the Bill, should be totally disfranchised, and he would therefore move, as an amendment, " that the bo rough of Aldborough be returned to schedule A. (Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches, and laughter from the Opposition.) Mr. SADLER begged to state, that this borough had been separated for many years front that interest to which the Hon. Gentleman had at, unceremoniously alluded. Lord STORNIONT said, that the Hon. Member for Hertford, when he stigmatized the constituency of Ald borough, ought to recollect that his own brother was a free. man of that town. Mr. DUNCOMBE.—No, he is not.—(Laughter and cheers.) Lord STORNIONT continued.—Does the Hon. Mem ber mean to say that he was not? for if he does, he could contradict hint, for when he (Lord Stormont) was Mem ber for Aldborough, he recollected that the Hon. Gentle • man's brother had given hint his vote. He should wish to know if the Hon. Member included his brother in what he was pleased to term the disgraceful constituency of All borough. Ile believed that the Hon. Gentleman's brother had given him (Lord Stormont) his vote independently, and so had done all the rest of the freeholders.—(Laughte r .) The town of Hertford was notoriously one of the most cor rupt places in the kingdom, and nobody could get into Parliament for that town without spending money ; but when he (Lord Stormont) was Member for Aldborough, it had never cost him one single farthing.—(Laughter.) His constituents had not been treated and indulged in d r unkenness.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member fir Hert ford stood up and reviled the manner in which Members g ot into that House, but why did he not adv e rt t o t h e st i ll mo re disgraceful manner in which he himself h a d got i nto Parliament ? Mr. DUNCOMBE was sorry to see that the p ass i ons o f the boroughmongers so completely got the bett e r o f t h em. —(Laughter. ) The ruling passion was so strong i n death—(A laugh)—that out they came,furgot the borough, and engaged in personalities. The Noble Lord had said that his (Mr. Duncombe's) brother had voted for him at the election for Aldborough, and he (Mr. Duncombe) would have voted for him himself, in preference, at least, to those who were opposed to him. In point of fact, 1;11Kak there was but one constituent for Ahlbotough, an hat was his Grace the Duke et Newcastle. The Noble Lord bad said, " Wait for Reform, and see if von will get better Members." Why should they be better? He (Mr. Duncombe) would ask, in return, why they should not get better Menibers? He should like to know in what consisted the superiority of the New , astle norni • trees over Members freely chosen by the people. He could tell the Noble Lord that it was not enough for him to extol his own services. Another tribunal must put a value upon them,—the public were estimating the costs as well as the nature of the services of the boroughmongers, and he could tell them that the result would not be very flat tering to their vanity. The sense and virtue of an in sulted peopl • ht , Al risen against them, and he would advise the Noble Lord not to be indifforent to the facts. Mr. N. CALVERT would maintain that there were not in that House a more independent set of Members than the representatives for Hertford. Lord STORMONT disclaimed any intention of being personal. Sir C. WETIIERELL had been twice the representative for Boroughbridge, and no expense had be been put to except in giving an enterainmerr to the freeholders after the election was over, and he could assure the House the' it was a much cheaper entertainment than that which the Hon. Member for Hertford had given to his constituents. If he were rightly informed, the monition de beadle had cost tbe Hon. Member for Hertford 3,000/. or 4,000/., whilst his (Sir C. Wetherell's) constituents had been con tent with a handsome dinner, which had cost him only a cendecimal of the Hertford entertainment. The attri buting the sale of the borough to the Duke of Newcastle was a calumny. The Hon. Member for Hertford had said that he and his side of the House had treated the Opposi- tion too gently ; but if such was his oil, what mug be hi vinegar?—(A laugh)—if such was his mellient, what would he his caustic ? He wished the Gallant Member had confined himself to the boroughs in schedule B, and had not wandered to the defunct schedule A. He wished that he hail attacked the livin4, arid not the dead. Per haps the Hon. Member recollected Shakspeare, and Ii reflected upon Falstaff who had fought a dead man for nn hour.—(A laugh.) Would he walk over the cadaver— the trunks of dead men ? Was his the courage, the spirit, the genius, the new illumination of the new Parliament? The Hon. Member, in reviling the Duke of Newcastle, ' had reviled as generous and as high-minded a Nobleman ~s any in the country, and he regrett,d that his Aliijesty's Ministers had cheered those revilings.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) The Learned Gentleman proceeded at some length, but was inaudible from the laughter and the expressions of impatience in the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER com plained of the mitiner in which the Learuql Member had been Itti from the point before the House. He contended that the borough of Ahlborough was properly placed in schedule B, and that it was too late to move that it be inserted in schedule A. Mr. CURRIE said, that in justice to the inhabitants of Hertford he could declare that, to his knowledge, the con stituents had not taken a bribe, at least in the two elec tions with which he bad been acquainted. Mr. PRAED wished to point out to the Hon. Member for Hertford that he might at present divide the House, upon the question whether Alaorough should stand put of schedule B, and he could afterwards take the sense of the House whether it should be included in schedule A. Mr. ATTWOOD wished to know whether the Noble Lord personally approved of the borongh being included in schedule B. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was perfectly clear to the Committee that the point before them was approved of by Minister 4, and as he formed one of that Administration, be of course approved of the in sertiun of the borough in schedule B. Mr. DAWSON must remind the Noble Lord that h 7 s observation was not consistent with his vote of the pre ceding evening. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he certainly had voted for leaving a borough out of schedule A, which had been inserted in it, but be had stated bis reasons fur so doing. He saw no grounds whatever for altering his opinion on the present occasion. • - The cries of " Question" became vehement, and after a few words from Mr. O'CONNELL and ➢lr. STANLEY, Mr. DUNCOMBE withdrew his amendment, and the question was put and carried. The CHAIRMAN then put the question, " That the bo rough of Atnersham stand part of schedule B," which was carried. On the question " That the borough of Arundel stand part of schedule B," Alerman ATKINS should divide the Committee upon this question. The borough of Arundel contained 463 scot and lot burgesses, all resident in the town, and this was not a nomination borough. Lord D. C. STUART was independent to the utmost extent of the term, and had been as freely chosen as his Hon. Colleague, but he felt it his duty to vote for the dis franchisement of one of the representatives of this borough. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the population of the place being within 4,000, he saw no reason for its exemption. Aiter some further remarks from Mr. Alderman ATKIN s, the question was agret d to. On the question, "That the borough of Ashburton (Devon) stand part of the schedule," Mr. POYNTZ said, that having voted against the motion for giving two Members to Aldborough, it might appear inconsistent in him to propose giving two Mem bers to Ashburton ; but this was the strongest ease in the schedule. He should read to the House the memorial which had been presented by this borough. The Hon. Member then read a memorial of some length, presentel to the Secretary of State, but the noise in the House pre vented more than passages being occasionally heard. The memorialists stated, that according to the census of 1821 the population was 3,403, the inhabited houses 396, tho-e uninhabited 15 ; total, 411. The difference between the census of 1821 and that of 1831 was nearly '7OO, the present population being 4,091, and the increase of houses being 138 since 1821. There were now upwards of 300 houses of 101. a year. Colonel TORRENS said that the borough of Ash. burton was warmly in favour of this Bill, and when it was known to the electors, they bad met and voted thanks to his Majesty's Ministers. He corroborated the statements of his Hon. Colleague, and added that there had be-n an error in the return of 1821, by which 86 houses had been left out owing to the negligence of the returning officer. The case of Ashburton was stronger than that of Appleby, and he reckoned therefore upon the support of those Members who had voted on that question. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it did not appear to bins that there were sufficient grounds for taking this bo rough out of the schedule. It appeared that there was a manor—the manor of Halsanger—containing 500 persons, which it was said had been omitted in the return ; b u t even adding that number to 3,403, the numbers of the borough and parish, it would mike 3,903 only, which was considerably below the number of 4,000 ; and there fore it was not a case of so much hardship at that of Woodstock, last night. Wiih respect to the mistakes which were alleged to be in the returns of 1821, there might be some occasionally; but it was not necessary to go back to correct them. But with regard to Ashburton, it was curious enough that the statements of the petitioners did not make out their case. They stated, th.tt by the re cent return there was an increase of 138 houses since 1821 ; that 52 only had been built_ ince that period, con sequentlymultiply t a o wt B k h e he 6 a i s c e4h l i I : 1 1 0y : house,9ueasiedg.sdhet added t h e uht r e ote e additioncnoa3uml,mc4uiobtitomitted t ni o (s ; gt t h4 a h e n i e the number of houses built since 1821—namely, 52—and I s ) yf t:b li s tBa t r k3 a ii c n i mg this number from 4,165, the population would be 3,749 only ; so that, on every ground, there was no rea son for exempting Ashburton. After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP and Mr. O'CONNELL, the motion was agreed to. On the que-tion, " that Bodmin stand part of the schedule." Mr. DAVIES GILBERT confessed that he could make out no case, which, on the principle of the Noble Lord, would take it out of the rule. He would remark, how ever, that the voters were highly respectable persons, and that Bodmin was virtually a county town, increasing in size, and rapidly improving. The question was agreed to. The question was then put, " that the borough of Bridport stand part of schedule B." Sir HORACE ST. PAUL opposed the motion. The borough of Bridport, he said, was co-extensive with the parish, but not with the town of Bridport. By the census of 1821, the population of the borough was 3,742. Now the part of the town of Bridport which was not in the borough was a continuation of the streets of the borough, and contained a population of 1,550 souls. As the town of Bridport was still of the same extent as it was in the year 1821, when the census gave the population above that the population at present exceeded . that amount. 4,000, he thought that he was only justified in assuming The number of houses at 101. annual rent in the borough was now 340 ;—in that part of the town out. of the borough, 60. The census of 1831 gave the population of 6 the town and borough at 4,200. He had now stated a another population ;aal l returnnow,wing wouldeg t case which, if gentlemen would recollect figures and num bers, and would only vote impartially, must induce them to take the botough of Ibidport out of schedule B. 1 Hon. Member then moved an amendment to that effect. Mr. WARBURTON opposed the amendment. P i ' Hon C.lleague had stated the population of the borouP of Bridport, which was co-extensive with the parish Bridport, to be 3,742. His Hon. Colleague had, hci l , ever, stated that there were other parishes included in! town of which the population, if added to the popula o of the borough, would make a population of more th 4,000 for the town of Bridport. Now the, urisdiction the bailiff and the burgesses of the borough of Bria was limited to the borough only, and did not extend I° the two neighbouring parishes of Bradpool and Alline ° Now what was the population of those parishes? pool contained 926, and Allington 1,139. He adnnt i that pat t of the parish of Bradpool might be considere d l part ()Idle town of Bridport, but that. part of Bradpool: not colvain more than 200 inhabitants. Adding t' number to the pqpnhation of the borough, you did make the population of the borough more than 3,942. to the parish of Abington, it was divided from the v ) " of Bridport by a small river, and no man who b l ew!' thing of the localities would say that the parish of All , " ton formed any part of the town of Bridport. Indeed', that parish it was impossible to state that any Rut of t' population belonged to the town of Bridport. He the fore asserted that, in 152,1, the population of the town Bridport did not come up to 4,000, and it was beyond questiim that the population of that borough fell very 9 11( of that amount : this induced hint to think that the t rough of Bridport ought to be inserted in schedule and he was happy to say that such was the opinion ni l constituents who had returned him to that House. Sir E. SUGDEN would not ask the opinion of 0101 habitant.. of Bridport, as to whether they would c onseot t l be sacs limed or net. He would only ask what was jut the town of Bridport on the one hand, and to the cotsvi on the other. The Hon. and Learned Member then 1 tended that Minist.rs ()wilt. to apply to this borough same rule which they had applied to the borough Truro, and went over wain the (Xten repeated arguele of the partiality of Ministers in applying one rule to t borough, and another to such paces as Appleby Bridport. The Learned Member dwelt upon this pc at such length, that the House manifested its impatil by loud anour and repeated bursts of laughter. - j Hon. and Learned Gentleman then turn.d round and -buked the House, stating that the manner in whi/ was proceeding to exercise its judicial functions in disfr chisiug boroughs without hearing either argument 4 evidence, was one of the most monstrous exhibitions he had ever witnessed in his life.—(Roars of laughter' The uproarious ,ursts of laughter which be then b around him struck him as one of the worst signs of timts.—(Benewed laughter, and cheers from the OPP ., tion.) Judging from what then took place, he expect when (he reformed Parliament a-sembled, to see ev f measure carried by acclamation. No man would d' t . to eet up in the reformed House and spe.k sensib l i —(R ears of laughter.) He supposed that be bad kk t s w i tething very foolish—(Renewed laughter)—but was not aware of it, and he was only sp u r ing the concretion of his mind.—(Oh, oh, /) laughter.) Were not these signs to lead the II to the conclusion that a Reformed Parliament would by acclamation measures which could not be carried, sound judgment?—(Cheers from the Opposition-) felt convinctd that when the reformed Parliament ' with the inclination of a new body to alter every thi n g the old Constitution which it did not like, they would h ) measures perpetually carried, not by calm reasoning , by clamour, iutimidatien, and violence.—(Laughter , cheers front the Opposition.) The Hon. and Lea r ' Member concluded by charging the Hon. Member , Bridport, who. supported the disfranchisement of elott i3 i rough, with great i ncons i s t ency , i n support i ng this in the manner he did, since that Hon. Member fraukly avowed that it (lid not go far enough for his poses, and that he only looked upon it as a means W/ terior objects. He gave his zealous support to the stn ment. Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that it was very Pnit for houses to adjoin th e b oroug h, w i t h ou t b e i ng et, to be considered as an i n t egra l par t o f i t . The c 3r . s i Truro, on the other hand, was dear and decided, an (l 4d salted no analogy whatever to that of Bridport. he sat down, he could not avoid noticing the mann which the Hon. and Learned Member opp(:site (S ig t Sugdrn) had thought proper to lecture the House un mole of discussing public busines. Now he hap P ei to have ten sears' longer experience of that House tlattf ) ., Learned Geneeman, and begged leave to state, for bee o formation, that there was nothing peculiar in the con" of Members during these debates which could in any, gree justify his sneers or animadversions. When ; and uninteresting detai's were under co nsideration, gee. men had always been in the habit of conversing wit; another as they had done now in the presence of the P Mettok.r for St. latawes, so that he mi g ht set his tni oo , rest with respect to the appreh e nd e d revo l ut i ona ry at' toms. For himself individually, he could take cred,il, being much more fatigued by th e s e di scuss i on s than Pi Men - bets who were exempt front avocations during entire of the mornin.z. • Lord STORMONT urged, that the case of Brodpo closely resembled that of Woodstock as to justify I ) di.po•ing of both boroughs in a similar manner ; but 1. 1 the principles on which Ministers acted one day We ,0 different from those which they had laid down uporrati g o e that he could scarcely believe them to be the same A . 4 nitration. Their imbecility and w e akness were, ill P. ) altogether incredible to those who had not heard speeches and witnessed their actions.—(Laughter.) The resolution was then agreed to, and Bridport aC ingly stands part of schedule 13. The ntxt borough, Buckingham, was similarly of without any olHervation. On the question that Chippenham stand part of dule B, Captain BOLDER° demanded permission to b e' lowed to produce evidence on oath far the purposed ° ing that this borough was entitled to be removed 4 schedule B, as it had contained 4,411 inhabitants in I although the returns of that year had assigned it lation of only 3 506. By parochial returns whir been made out with a view to levy assessments for rates, it could be proved to the satisfaction of the mittee that 155 houses had been wholly excluded fO ril i returns on which they acted : hence the apparel:ol ciency. The case of Chippenham, be submitted, much stronger one than that of the neighbouring b ° ,4 of Caine, and it was therefore to be hoped that the Lord would at least allow him an opportunity to es t6 ' facts so important to the maintenance of the just P, leges of an ancient, loyal, and respectable town, for was none more so on the list.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. STANLEY said it was unfair to discuss the Chippenham by comparison, as it ought to stand ( t . by its own merits, with ou t r e f e r e nce t o the case of other borough, whether adjacent or remote. Since' 1 , ever, Caine had been once more quoted as an ex3l, / partiality, he would mention one broad fact which sufficienly demonstrate the injustice of the ace° 6 . s o The Neble Lord, to who se i n fl uence t h e e xenebt Caine was so generally attributed, had, in fact, a rig o l g property in but three h ouses ou t o f th e 208 o f and !4 the value of 101. a year in the town, which would t , right of elective franchise. As to the case of ChipP r i it appeared the borough and parish together contaief;4, a population of 3,021, and be therefore saw no e° o ,ll reason why it should Am takettopt of the schedule ill it now stood. ti ° Mr. SADLER said that Chippenham had a P r i , claim on the affectionate regard of the House, 0 j e t been so closely connected with the father and fog° the Constitution.—(" Oh, oh.") st" Mr. G. BANKES thought it hard that evidence ( ); not be received on a point of such importance, 7 0 '1 sisted that the refusal of his Gall a nt Friend's rot° a direct violation of the pl e dge which the Chali ce *" the Exchequer had voluntarily given before the went into a Committee.—(Hear.) CIA Sir It. PEEL o b serve d th a t th e borough of haul, in 1821, had contained 576 inhabited house' dj four tithings connected with it were taken into the Istion, but wh a t l ie th oug ht p ar ti cu l ar ly r e marlat by o, the fact that by th e re tur ns of 1811 it appeared !rip , borough, tithings inclusive, actually contained 6 6 :4 bited hous e s. This c e rtai n ly afforded a reasoe r pli gumption that there must be some mistake in the,,o,r,„ serial retarna of 1821, and he would therefore pry Government the propriety of allowing the Hoe.l lant Member an opportunity to make out bis • itsel f, on the first blush appeared so probable in its elf, easily susceptible of proof.—(Hear, hear.) 41 Mr. PUSEY contended that the returns of IS M the houses and the population touch lower than t"h`igliA, were. It could be prov e d th a t th e re t u rns on Noble Lord want were incorrect as to the number `Liti l _d The CHANCELLOR o f t h e EXCHEQUER as i might have b een a m i sta k e as to t h e num ber °f bed hut the retur ns as t o t h e popu l at i on appea red " g rect ; but if they were not, how could they 00 h o the returns of 1821 as to the population ? . Sir C. WETHERELL conten d e d, that 130:71,e80 to hear c ounse l or ev id ence, t h e C omm i ttee i'''OT ( eifid of gross i n j ust i ce if i t re f use d to i nst i tute s ome ) nt s i s eP,',, the statement of Hon. Members of which prod li plin ig o d If they did not, the intimation thrown out by o f that where a case could be made out it would u`'' + O, lg nu tal 01 01 th e that Si tLeil eriea Chi t adios