The Sun. — London, England, 1831-09-21 00:00:00

Govei however/ 10 betteril red aPra a, had laid tA rty sbc :o Chet' Bill 0 that an; I for one nt. long 0 It to 1.0., Th e bl en sufE of only for it to °` iiti, and ° J I .liliate th e it had °I It g i° agaito t i l laugh.), r the aio°,e, i ged to O P After the , ' nbarrasio personal o analyze., He I" t i n the' .' personal 1! ntlernen.l them W_"; rAys Val` the the Te , t opposite:, interes'_, ter; in el t hem• y were the (lit' tlieothe i e l ; ver SO fnifept s it at that tbis Lt, in fa ° e ,'lo a i l s h e xcic:tretdo. acco, 1 , , that it ‘ h, taleilti,;, Arista. the IA ad ,ress n they t' borough ey tbetus uen t s l ive uncomi y this cur,' le of the % :!; but if who had! °old fin! men of :twee el ow were peop!e. tne Atto that not' locraCy• °f aijority td log itonl m y course f vhich among o t b a r ved, he, t y way tt i i , l l' (Mc. ‘ S litional re d i he mo t .d anuing o believe other tyr o " that the of the .1 t ,10 had been, 1 ,0 ad applieuii measure is into aot favour 0, 0 veil vole' . and Leq, sufficient allowances for the situation in which the Govern flt was placed at the time they took office. He was toe of those who avowed himself the advocate of a gra dual but effectual Reform • but from the moment the ellington administration resigned, and the leader of that :Ministry in the House of Commons declared they did so tho se they could not propose a Reform ; nor yet resist who did—f rom that moment it was plain that the oirmttunity of a gra d ua l c h ange was gone by, and he ap- P h aa r i ed the G overnment f or th e p ro d, nt boldness" they ad displayed in the isiswhich had presented itself.— (tllll ear h ear.) He was cr not w one of these who believed in t r ,,''''lcyon d a y s w hi c h were to f o ll ow th e passing of the ". 0 0 the contrary, he knew that a spirit of discon lerlt : f n a : abroad, and that tbe contest between the huhu 11,"i'gthtee.discontented, end all who had amythirtg to lose, Ti c! , "'Lc, in spite of every prtc oitiou.—(Checr i s . .) ,-1 much, however, lie was firmly oiv of, teat V e ', 4att le, if the Bill was passed, would be fought on ata - n Y different ground, and under very different circum- G e .fs * He was one of those who prized the inixe I prepared of Kin;, Lords, and C =mons, and was fie e " to stand by or fall with it. He was grate 'lsnerefore, to the Ministry which had the honesty and f ° nes ' to look the difficu'ties of the country fairly in the th te e; and he was confident, if the struggle carve, that as y would have with them all the intelligence, and power, th e ': °r " l Opinions of the people; and, if he knew any theEngland, lie was revolution that n such a crisis all b e ( n 'iogies drawn from the of France would to X i " coe Bill, mpletely to fail. He gave his cordial support p rafn f i' l E' protested ) against the destruction of the Cor ns, to whom the country owed the expulsion of the t h e '2 , B , th e establishment of the Revolution, and almost th eil - , l4 de of th e liberty it possessed. Of the details of it h he would say nothing, because he was convinced, oth - e Passed, that they would soon be called on to examine ,sr producing still more alarming changes.—(Hear.) ionrionel MABERLY, after a slight examination of d ol e of the details of the Bill, contended that it was sled risiaY., an Aristocratic measure, and that those who exa ien e " it attentively would find that it gave property an p , ne nce with regard to numbers, which it did not before t o °B ,,: s e s • Let the House look to the changes made in the 11.,--71 representation. At the present moment there ti e , 95 county Members in 513 ; when the Bill passed t i f - e t e would be 475 Members in ail for England, of whom e°ll ntY Members would be 157. In addition to th'e, hte. abolition of the system of out voters would render the em e s °oB still more agricultural, while the more objection tik Measure —the giving the franchise in counties to te . • ts,„, ts at will—would place a large portion of the const!- ) o ra - " t cY , under the controul of their landlords. It was said eh al t tle Bill ought not to pass because it interfered with , only e ser te red rights. Theliorough representation wag, how a usage ; and they had as much right to pro fe.'e the alteration of it as the Honourable Member Staffordslii,e bad to propose the alteration of the 1 °f rac e D over. But it had been said that the mea vvould not be final. If by that expression was I i7int th a t there might be some loop-hole which it would Le tiesne ees r it s - all' to amend at a future periodie admd it; were meant that the Bill would , not l have itte a cer ;_ns d egree of d ura ti on , that it would not last as long as it 4 feund consonant to the habits and feelings of the "nnt rY, then he denied the position, and asserted that the , b rzlea 'nce would b e permanen t an d fi na l. While the Bill en . '" i n conson ance w i t h t h e f ee li ngs of the people, he t' uld s ee no ground f o r th e apprehension of the Hon. and earned Member for Thetford, that constitutions would streceeil e ns another with the frightful rap idi ty w hi c h le Za ". Member '• witneesed asked if tbe in France d ßeform Bill was the R nevolot ution an expert Ment. His (Mr. Maberly's) answer was, that if it were 4 . 114 to , passed that would be an experiment, and a most lui one.—(H ear , h ear , b ear .) It h a d a l so been con tenwha-ed th a t no mot i ve h ai l b een ass i gne d f or th e Bill. Y, the motive had been repeated usque ad nauseam. , e „ Bill was introduced because the House had lost the e l l nden ee of the people, which confidence the Bill was o ke alated to regain. What did the people want? A Le ra , cti eal Reform, which should do away with the sale of i n should do away with the unconstitutional 11 0 4-t , l , e° ce - -wbich should secure that a Member of that j a ,,, - "e should have at least some constituents. By‘alopt. P,L th e Bill they would have an independent House of I . T lll°T a'• Believing that such would be the case—be tecN that the House, as constituted by the Bill, would Stl o ,7 ° , 4a Potred of men of high spirit, men of fortune, It e C e n ri t ' b ui and character (for such would always be Se th, ti Y the people), he conceived that, in supporting . and, i ° l , -- s n i n ` he was supporting the liberties of his country, ne w - `"e words of Chatham, infusing into her veins a mrPortion of health and youth. fligh t 4 - TREVOR prayed God to grant that his fears his P rov e vain, but he could not conceal from the House t he ir,Prehen s i ons t h at t h e grea t es t evils would ultimately h t it froth the adoption of the measure. When he looked sot h a t the history of this and other countries, .he could elia husking where was the necessity of this fearful eit op i l e i th e Constitution ? Why risk so dangerous an th;,,,nlent? What more severe censure could be cast on k r VII than the great defect implied by the Hon. Member 131iddlesex in moving that the colotsies should have re ja*Zentatives Allusions, which he had beard with asto tll,—lneot, had been made by the supporters of the Bill, to IVi ti n r O l oiens o f men ce l e b ra t e d in the history of the country. ark ref erence to one of those celebrated individuals, Mr. ves ft e ,.: he was convinced, that if that great man were to ceu e rr ,, ea r among them, he would view with dismay the be.tiLtitiahetYere pursuing, and would exclaim, " Quos !ri s k perdere, prius dementat ." In endeavouring to nn sehi f perfect which , was already so good, the greatest tack, e e s might be occasioned. Notwithstanding the at hllo,: ° I a licentious Press, and the shouts of the mob, he 1 1 4 "ili continue to do what he felt to be his duty. He to i t b e in error—might God grant that it should prove tai nt h must say that he should look upon the passing 14 'DOI as the dawning of the downfall of one of the bee nations of the world. i le . LONG WELLESLEY entertained the greatest Ltliteet fur the constitutional opinions of the Hon. and f i l l !d Ge n tl eman oppos i te , w h o h a d last night opposed /1 0 , I I; and therefore regretted extremely to hear that fite . ., o4 Lear ne d G en tl em an say that it would be de soh eclv e of the best interests of the country. For himself, 5 5 0 ,,, 5 t5 "1n1Y would not give the Bill his humble and feeble ei p rt if he thought it. in any way trenched on the prin tiaeer, of the Constitution. So far, however, from con "ineeirneg, it any innovation on the Constitution, be most b,'Y thought it was a renovation of the Constitution. as s " not been denied by the opposers of the Bill, that it Ptihil t M axine of policy that the House ought to regard the °Pinion of a measure with favourable eyes. Tire ° Pin e l° „ ll s va , , what was the ext,nt and nature of public dei s ,,, l "" on the present subject, and how was that opinion ti(4 l ; ll , Bt rated? To him it was clear that at the late elec or th . " e ,,,Public opinion was pronounced decidedly in favour % el ; 'Jill. He did not, however, place his support to h tee °n that sole footing. All history justified the -.. 4t tiplc of the measure. Adverting to the supposition Pos e ~°°. Members came pledged to that Rouse to sup ifno „ ,-" 1 11 he exposed the absurdity of supposing that ati t c "'able m e n would receive the commands of their con kltire.t/ts to advocate a measure to which they were reaby . fro - ,1: Much exasperation had arisen in the public mind i!i g til rh " . "! Procrastination of the measure.. That was a reel sdile :t iwev er, which would subside, although it was imposo tt "at the people should not feel mistrust from somedid I'4 the which had been made on the subject. Ile it ateo t . "eve that the Bill was calculated to make an undue ,lecti e lna to the aristocracy. On the contrary, his ob- Was that it gave an undue support to those who Ile il ionising f orwar d s to t h e h onours of the aristocracy. land "aught the great difference between the people of Eng cool:l4lthe people of all other countries was that the former any „ e° ,Jay a greater portion of democratic liberty than ' the 6 t o "er, without infringing on the aristocratical part of ia. n stitution. By taking from the oligarchy and add -0116C,. the democracy, they would merely enlarge the basis p osed ° l lt the aristocracy rested. Adverting to the pro atsmid_tvision of counties, he admitted that it would be pio n d With great inconveniences; and that, in his opi -414r it Would h ave been better had the whole of the free- A r i a of a county been allowed to choose the four or the e nne r t i o Y p nl i e s i t a: do f i en iei "'hers for that county. He . also objected to the the n theoverseers of the poor in the - manner Mtßill. He strongly censured the p u b ii Pt , that were made in various uarters to decry Mth e se llien • Ile had never decried thew. He had lived th at ir. `"ern---with men in high situations—and he knew Plit,C I va , a bas e d e l us i on on t h e peop l e t o t e ll them that lead c Men could be found in any part of the world so v i i ti y . a t u o do their duty in so disinterested a manner, and inert of entire a sacrifice of their own interests, as the public to eueb England. He had never, therefore, been a party Le o b . ; a d captandum statements. Reverting to the Bill, ti en th vrved that w h t n b e b roug h t hi s m i n d to th e con vice th at „ at Reform was necessary, it was with the addition h ati re ll t e f orm s h ould proceed on the principles w hi c h c,i.sp'k advocated by the m en w h o h a d b ee n best tic been'! oe: tro l d vi n t e h ed th b e y piee of the C. It was " ground that be ncipl supported . this onstitution ad Bill, which h m i r c his Noble Friend. tin • P EREGRINE COURTENAY considered the er a delu s ion • He believed that bribery wou ld be in cased • sh e ' and th at b y t h e a l terat i on i n t h e constitut i on o f bra nc h lls of 'Comons, the existence a the other two es of th e Le m gislature would be compromised. Be ;Intoslip 1 14 House, o° / Tquile • d o theri te i nil that 8 ..4 1 most 60" of lii hear)--' r , avian, ha d s sense of t r ,l Bear, I jeg .:ireuinstap o such a jo s is the If f f any &O rr After obs e her coun tr y of t 14 close ) I. said he , t 4 ail, inchnity ruin a dlr. country ( 4 , it the ine the liberve6 repeated the Bill was a delusion; for he was convinced it would not remove any one of the grievances under which the people I ibatired, or any one of the evils of which they complained. Be would vote against the Bill, because he was satisfied with the existing institutions, and because he considered no practical benefit, but, on the contrary, in- finite evil would result from the measure. Mr. MACAULEY, after observing that be felt great difficulty in speaking upon a subject so completely ex hausted, proceeded to contend, in opposition to the asser tion of the Hon Member who last addressed the House, that the Bill was not a delusion ; and the Ministers, and those who supported them, had never held out hopes 0 the public of the possibility that this measure would remove all their grievances. The Reform 8,1 l was intended as an alterative, not as a specific.—(Hear.) It wru!d certainly produce no miraculous of fects.for the moment, hut it would undoubtedly be the parent of many good measures.— eers.) It never had been asserted by Government that this Bill would make the people rich and happy ; but it would afford them protecti.in in becoming rich and happy ; and this was all which any legislative measure, or any cede of laws, could do. He did not expect that the 811 would now and at once relieve the nation from all its embarrassments ; but he would boldly assert, that if the Bill lad been passed fifteen years ago we should at present ba in a much more prosperous condition.—(Hear.) The one great and immediate benefit resulting from the measnre would be a Reform in the con stitution of the House of Commons, from which they might anticipate the preservation of peace, the maintenance of order, the restoration of confidence, the increase of nation a prosperity, the destruction of monopolies, the reduction o f many Lurthens, which now pressed upon the community, and the dicrieution of those which it was necessary to maintain in a more equitable manner, and after such a fashion as that they should weigh as lightly as possible upon the lower classes.—(Hear.) No act o(a Legislature could ba expected to he fraught with greater or more im portint results; no Administration could, except in the pure spirit of quackery, promise more for any meastt:e. (Hear, and laughter, from the Opposition.) lie contended that the arguments of an Hon. and Learned Member, who spoke upon the question last night, and who contended that the 101 electors would return none but mob orators or persons of powerful local connections, were founded upon mere theory ; and were, in fact, contradicted by experience. In truth, all the arguments of the Hon. Members opposite, respecting the effects which would be pro luced by the change in the constituent body, were founded upon theory ; or rather, he should say, upon assertion.—(Hear.) AI experience was upon his side. Look (said he) to Leicester ; look to Nottingham, in which there was a right of voting by scot and lot. Did those places return demagogues, or mob orators, or persons of extensive local connections? Quite the contrary. Again. Look to London; see the men it bad selected for its representatives.—(Loud laughter, and hear, hear.) Look to 'Westminster and Southwark; who were the men those places had returned? And what reason was there for concluding that the democra tical principle would be more strong in any of the 101. constituencies, than in Westminster and South wark ? (ILar, hear.) Well, then, who were the men returned by Westminster and Southwark? First, there were the illustrious Fox, Sheridln,Tierney, Sir S. Romilly, than whom he begged to remark, there never yet was a man hss of a mob orator ; he loved the people—he served the people—but he never canvassed the people. He was as averse to the display con , equent upon soliciting their suffrages as a Coriolanus.—( Hear, bear.) He believed he was perfectly right in this assertion. He did not think Sir Samuel Romilly ever once appeared upon the hustings until he was elected ; and even then he came forward to return thanks with infinite reluctance.—(Hear, hear.) He denied that rejecting the Bill at this moment would he attended with less danger than it would have been some months ago. He maintained there had been no reaction ; the people were at this moment as zealous in support of the Ministry, and as eager for the Bill, as they ever were at any period since its introduction. The Bill, with a few exceptions, had no opponents, except those who hated Reform, because it would re move abuses, and those who hated Reform because it would avert anarchy. The Honourable Member then proceeded to give an account of the manner in which the Reform Bill affected the public mind in England. lie observed .that the nation, hiving clearly expressed its sentiments, rested in the calm and satisfied confidence that the expression of those sentiments would be attended with their legitimate effects, and that their favourite mea sure would be attended with the most perfect success; but soon the scene changed. General Gascoigne's motion was carried, the people were called upon for a fresh exertion, and onf e more they struggled manfully, and by one com. bitted effort placed the Bill as they thought, and justly thought, in perfect security; and having accomplished that object they retired to their usual repose. They were now, then, as previous to the deb ite on General Gascoigne's mo tion, calmly awaiting the decision of Parliament, and no inference would be less just than to conclude that because they were nut now so much excited as at the former period, because they were not now under the influence of that feeling which must of necessity be transient, that, therefore, they had become indifferent—that a re-action had taken place, because the people (lid not go abroad lighting bonfires, or remain at home illuminating their' houses. Those who maintained that a reaction had taken place only proved themselves grossly ignorant of the crisis in which they were called upon to act. There was not an opinion arising eut of that supposed reaction which was not founded in error ; those who held and advocated such opinions proceeded upon the assumption that the feeling which led the people of England to support the Reform Bill, and, previous to its introduction, to demand a change in the representation of the people, had arisen suddenly, and would as suddenly vanish and leave no trace behind, and every thing they saw led them to expect the dis • appearance they so earnestly hoped for and so impatiently expected ; but they reminded him of the man described by Horace, whe, standing by the side of the river, expected that it would flow past while he waited, unconscious that it had flowed from time immemorial, and would continue to flow, for the fountain whence it proceeded was inex haustible :—so it was with the public sentiment which sus tained and supported the leading Reformers of England.— (Cheers.) The excitement which the Reform Bill pro duced did not arise from any fLeting or temporary causes—it was the growing effect of that which was deep seated in the heart of every man in England. Did any rational and impartial man imagine that any single motion in that House, or any event which occurred, or any series of events, in the capital of a neighbouring country could awaken such a feeling as that which at the present moment animated the public mind of Britain—could any such circumstances produce such a change in the feelings of the people of this country as to alienate them from the ancient institutions? It was not true, but if true, the fact would be anything but consolatory. What hope could there be of the stability of Government in any country where the mind of the people could be made to undergo such a change through causes so comparatively insig nificant? What! a motion in that House or a re volution in any nation in Europe estrange the people of England from that which anteriorly they had held to be most sacred and venerable ?—the supposition was preposterous. The sentiment of Reform couid be traced back to a period much more remote. For the last seventeen years it had occupied a large space in the public eye—its commencement could be seeo at a period much earlier. During the first thirty years of the reign of George 111. it could be seen extensively and powerfully at work, supported, as it was, by the authority of two great leaders of party in that House, backed and sustained as they were by very respectable minorities. Then came the French Revolution, and upon that followed the war—the long and expensive war—which, followed upon that, threw bark the question for many many years; but, thrown back, it was not utterly destroyed ; suspended it alight have been for a time, but the people never lost sight of their favourite object. At length peace came, and with peace came that leisure and absence of excitement, which proved favourable to a c dm and dispassionate consideration of a question of the highest moment to the interests of the British people. And then distress came, and with it came also a suspicion of unfaithful stewardship and unwise legis_ lotion ; and then the Reform question became an object of deep and anxious attention ; but then the Catholic ques tion stood in its way —the Reform question was, in faet, hidden by the Catholic question—yet still it went on noise lessly. Now, however, the Catholic question was at an end, the cry of " No Popery" could now never be raised again, either to divide the Reformers, or to strengthen the hands of their enemies. At length the Catholic question was disposed of, and at once Parliamentary Reform became the primary consideration ; and the liberal support which carried the one, and all the clamour which opposed it, en f e s r vh l c h t r h e wer e at once given to promote the furtherance of the House had question.—(Cheers.) ad heard s 0 muca d T w he h feelings isno gy p gs n a veiled from one end of the empire to the other, had been attributed to causes that were utterly ioadeqaate to its production. If ever there was a sentiment with which accident bad nothing to do, it was the feeling throughout England—that Parliamentary Reform ought to be acceded to. Circumstances may have accelerated the progress - of the great work; but the sources of the sentiment lay im measurably deeper than had been acknowledged by its opposers. The great religious Reformation itself was accelerated by circumstances; but did any man suppose that the sale of indulgences in a particular part of Saxony, was the cause which brought about that great work. No. In both cases the public mind was prepared for a great and important change. He would repeat, that the feeling and the opinion were seated deeper. than any opposer of the Bill had at any time represented. Ile, there fore; anticipated no reaction. He no more expected to witness indifference to the Reform Bill in England, than he expected to see his countrymen returning to any of their ancient prejudices or s uperstitions. He no more ex pected it than he did a renewal of the practice of burn ing witches—an ordval of red hot ploughshares—or a sacrifice to wooden idols. He no more anticipated a reac tion in favour of Gatton and Old Sarum, than be did the renewed worship of Thor or of Odin. No, he had no such fear, the victory of reason once gained, was veurei fur ever.—(Cheers.) If there were any sign of public feeling peculiarly favourable to the views and wishes of t h e Re formers, it was that very fact of the caltnness now so uni versally preceding. Was it the calmness of indifferenc,, or was 'it not, on the contrary, the calmness of confidence and hope? But in proportion as ti.e confidence of hope was gr e at, so would be the bitterness of disappointment. In that Houk, at least, they would encounter no disap pintment ; but then an appeal had been made to the Lords, as if the wher Howe of Parliament had no com mon sympathies with the g eat body of the people—as if they were powerful through the weakness of the middle c!ass, and ex,lred through their degradation—as if to pu rify and establish the freedom of election would incapa citate the Lords from the . exercise of their functions, and that corruption appeared to be indispensable to the preset , . cation of their authority—as if their privileges and power rested upon a sy,tern full of that corruption,and that low ini quity of which the ordinary Courts of Justice , took cogni zance—and as if the Lords were resolved to stand or fall by a system which the nation had resolved to de•troy. Thus maintaining the, principle th it the power of the House of Peers depended upon the existence of a mock House of Commons. That was the nature of the appeal made to the House of Peers. Could the Peers shut their eyes to what lad occurred in a neighbouring country? Could the most Inobservant spectator—even the least classical-4w Hind :o the tnalks of that just dissolution and renovation of society, which bad taken place in a neighbouring country ? Could any travelhr walk through the long lines of stately mansions which filled the Faubourg St. Germain, with- out being feelingly struck by that great event.—(Cheers from the Opposition, re-echoed from the Ministerial benches.) Could any man, without experiencing such a feeling, walk through those camtles, now broken up into lodging-houses, of an Aristocracy as far descended and as proud, as brave, and as polished as ever existed in this or any country—could any man remember that Aristocracy driven into exile and beggary--(Loud cheering from both sides of the House)—compelled to implore the charity of hostile neighbours—driven to the back settlements of America, or compelled to teach French to English school boys--could any min witness the vestiges of such changes as that, without asking himself why they had so been swept away, and their place no longer known, and their heritage given to strangers, and their Palaces despoiled— could any man fail to ask himself why it was, or, asking, fail to receive fur answer, that those results arose because they had no sympathy .with the people—(Cheers)—be cause those who warned them of their (linger were treated as theorists and speculators—because they refused to make any concession to the just demands of the people? But did he apprehend any such results in England . till the Peers should wholly separate mselves from the people, and scarcely even then. The English aristocracy could, he trusted, under no circum stances, be brought to resemble those of France. But what was the argument of those who suggested that if the Eng lish aristocracy betrayed the slightest sympathy with the people, they would share the fate of their brethren of France? But how could he imagine that considerations such as those could have the slightest weight with an aristocracy, whose leading members, and the heads of whose most ancient houses had declared themselves pre pared to sanction those changes which the just rights of the people of England—the spirit of the times—de manded ? The Talbote, the Cavendishes, and the princely house of Howard, were amongst the avowed supporters of the Bill ; and to those could be added the descendants of the Marlboroughs, the Russells, and the Derbys. For himself, he again repeated that he felt perfectly assured that the Nobility of England knew wherein their true honour and interest consisted; but even still he felt that there would in this country be no danger of the results which in other lands had accrued from resistance to the reasonable demons of the great body of the nation, for there would still be constitutional means of putting forth the strength of public opinion, the enemies of Reform, even if they succeeded for a time might assure themselves of this, that they could only hope for a short respite—for the House of Commons itself was one of the three estates of the realm ; and though they would treat the others with perfect and becoming respect, they would still remember what was due to themselves ; and therefore it was vain to suppose that such results would ensue as had taken place in other countries, from the overweening power of the aristocracy, and their blind resistance to necessary al terations. But there were those who expected other con. sequences from the rejection of the Bill—there were those who, in the event of that rejection, expected that it would lead to the return to tamer of that party which had fled from office in last November; who had fled, and left everything in confusion—the nations of the continent on the verge of anarchy, and the fires of incendiaries lighted up in many counties of England. Appalling and dark was the day of their flight; and far more dark would he the day of their return. Far more dark would be the day of that return, which would be the signal for resistance to the most united people in the world—a people never snore united— not even when the Spanish Armada sailed up the Chan nel, or when Bonaparte formed his camp at Boulogne. It would he utterly in vain that any attempt should be made 1 to trample upon or to crush public opinion ; for if any I I body of men were sufficiently strong for such a purpose as that, they would in their fail carry down with them the whole frame of society. Would it not then be the duty of a faithful House of Commons to warn the Sovereign of the position in which lie was placed—would it not be their duty as well as their privilege to convey to the King the wishes of his loyal people—would not the natural place of the House of Commons be in the front of the na tion? And here, he trusted, they would be found with the virtue, the wisdom, and the energy that would save the nation.—(Loud and continued cheering.) Mr. CROKER, after bearing testimony to the elo ' quenee of the Hon. and Learned Member who had just sat down, observed _ that that part of his speech which was intended to be most successful had proved the least so; but he bad at least communicated the solemn and im portant information of the course which his Majesty's Government intended to pursue ; it was, therefore, to be presumed, that the Hon. and Learned Member had taken office, and that lie (Mr. Croker) hailed the promotion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman with the greatest satis faction—that satisfaction, however, was only diminished by the shade cast upon the present Ministers of the Crown through the splendour of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Hithertothey had only known the Member for Caine as a practisin g barrister, and no more—(Cries of " Oh, oh !")_ but now they found him pouring forth his eloquence in that House under a new character—to him had now been com mitted the task from which his Majesty's Ministers shrunk —the task of schooling that House—of dictating to the House of Lords—of prompting what the people should say to the King, and what answer his Majesty had already resolved upon returning. No man was more ready than himself to admit the eloquence of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman—he had felt its effect too forcibly to deny its power—he - hail felt them too personally.—(Some Hun. Member laughed.) Did any one suppose that he had used the word personally in its ordinary sense ? There was, in rise common acceptation of the term, nothing that could be called personal in the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; on the contrary, he had, throughout, avoided anything approaching to personality; but he would tell the Hon. Member who laughed, that if he could appre ciate such talents as those of the Hon. Member for Caine, he would feel no surprise that another, though opposed to him, should admire them also. But as the highest flights often happened to be the heaviest fall., and in the swiftest courses the most serious disasters, so in a speech, elo quent beyond any which had been heard upon that ques tion, there were points of weakness which no imprudence or lack of judgment had ever surpassed. The Hon. and Learned Member seemed for a moment to foreet that he was addressing a Heuse, or either remembering that what was said there did extend beyond the walls of that House, and addressed the other branch of the Legislature in the words of wisdom, drawing his weapon from the very same armoury to which lie (Mr. C.) would have gone h by not been anticipated ; but be need not suggest that the use and application to be made of such a weapon would have been with him strikingly opposite, though he could not re frain from admitting the general excellence of a speech, though so much of it was calculated to do little else than to tickle the ear and delight the imagination, without sa crificing the reason. But how did the matter stand with the Hon. and Learned Member when he came to particu lars —when he came to describe the conduct and proceed ings of the States General of - Paris, of the events of the French Revolution, and of the fate of the Nobility on the disastrous day ? Did he think that the empty halls of the Faubourg St. Germain would send their echoes to the House of Peers in England, and warn them of their fate, or for what purpose did he use the illustration ?..--(Loud cheers.) He must have known that France, in her ancient Constitution, possessed three estates, and when they met, the House of Peers went into their Chamber, and the House of Commons, as they might be called, retired to theirs ; but the promoters of the Revolution felt, that to leave the Peets in the full possession of independent pow e r would have the effect of defeating the • project of the Revolution, and the first attempt in Paris, as it would be the second in London, would be to intimi date the House of Peers into a servile compliance with the wishes of the other branches of the Legislature. The first project proposed there was the union of the two branches of the Legislature, in order to destroy the power of ono of them. In the case of England it might be thought that the three hundred independent Peers, exercising a separate and substantive authority might yet controul and successfully resist the. ill-digested innovation of the Gar mons ; but let the 659 get the three hundrid amongst th e m, an d they would soon make short work with their less numerous opponen , s. It was said that the Chamber sheaved no sympathy with the feel:ngs of the people How could sympathy be shown or withheld, when the three hundred Members of that Chamber stood with apparent fr ee do m , though really restrained by invisible shackles— ' yielded to the terror and the violence of a blood-stained populace—sub:ritted to the Guards, who paraded within ttte sanctuary of their sitting ? Was that lie example which the Hon. and Learned Member would propose to Englishmen? Did he forget that night of insanity when the abolition of nobility was proposed by a Montmorency ; wh en to destroy the-rights of seignorage was moved by a Nosilles ; and the act for sweeping a way tithes by Cardinal Archbishop? And who opposed those? The Abbe Gregoire. The Hon. Gentleman had said that the object of those who were opposed to the Reform Bill, seemed to be to persuade the House of Lords to do that which they were unable to do themselves. He (Mr. Croker) would arbait that his Lope was to see that Noble House interpose between the Constitution and the attempts that this Bill was making to destroy it. He would admit that his desire was to see the House of Lords stand as it wrre like a proud isthmus—like that which di vided the ocean from the Alerliterranean. But the Hon. Gentleman not only went this length, but also contended that those who were against the Bill strove to persuade the Lords that their House could never have weight or influ— ence in the country, unless there was a mock House of Commons ; but be denied that the House of Commons, under the present systemovas a mock House of Commons; and he would ask, could that be a:mock House of Com mons under which England had for so many years flou rished—under which she had arrived at her present pitch of prosperity ?—(Cheers.) He thought the present House of Commons was in itself a proof that Reform was unne cesiry ; hitherto, for a long course of years, the Tory party had always a majority in the House ; but on this question being agitated, the other party bad gained a ma . jority, and a considerable one: then surely this was a proof that under the present Constitution the people could, when they pleased, return a majority to that House; and this was all that they desired to be able to do under the reformed system of representation. The Honour able Gentleman, in his speech, hod gone on to state that it would be absurd for any one to expect, that even if the Reform Bill was carried, bread would he cheap, or taxes would be less oppressive; and that such results as those could only arise from a long series of wise a dministration. But if that was the case, what was there to hinder the present Admiuistration doing that as the Government wi s at present constituted r Why was this alteration in the representation called for? Did the Mi nistry expect by that alteration to obtain a still greater in fluence and power ? If they did, he, as a Member of Parliament, protested against the Bi 1, on the ground that the power of the. Crown in that House was already suffi cient, and that to increase it any further, would be to render it enormous. But whatever the majority of the Ministers in the House might be at the present time, he begged to observe that they had not the same majority in the country in favour of Reform.—(Oh, oh ?) He was sure that he was right in that proposition, and in proof of it be would state, that in a number of contested elections, in which 34 or 35,000 persons had voted, there was only a majority of 1,600 in favour of the Reform candidates.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that the Hon. Gentleman had ronteneled that the people were still ena moured of the Bill ; but he had quite overlooked the cir-. cunistance—that the present B 11 was an entirely different one front the one in support of which they bail given their votes : in fact, with the exception of the disfranchising clauses, the alterations between the two Bil!s were so com plete, that they could in no respect be looked upon as the same me tsule.—(llear, heir.) It bad been his intention, though the speech of the Hen. Gentleman had in some degree led him astray from that intention to paint out some of those al nations to the House; and though he would not go the length of charging actual favouritism against the introducers of the Bill, he must say that there were provisoes and arrangements in it, which, if actual favouritism had existed, could not have been otherwise proposed. The first of those cases was that of Westbury ; this borough was, in almost every re spect, the same as that of St, Germain's, the proportion of the latter being 2,400 inhabitants, and thirteen 10/. h a n o d u s f el, t and e that of en 101. houses ; fo r and y bung e 2, tst. G e 6 r o m on a n h . ; I t I t! a t a s n a t l together disfranchised, while Westbury was allowed to re tein—not one—but both its Members. So, when he com pared the county of Suffolk with that of Durham, he found that the proportion of Members was altogether in favour d the latter, while the proportion of population, taxation, and square miles, was as greatly in favour of the former. The same might be said with respect to Northumberland and Norfolk, and with respect to Cum. berland and Essex. In fact, taking the Bill as a whole, it exhibited such a mass of absurdity, that to him it was almost incredible how any man or set of men could be found to propose or support such a heap of anomaliee.— (Cheers.) He would point out another of those ab surdities. By dividing the great counties which were entitled to four Members into two parts, every voter of those counties, instead of having the privilege of votin g for the whole four, was only to be allowed to vote for two ; while in the smaller counties, which, on account of that very smallness, were only to have three Members, the voter had the privilege of voting for all three. He really did not know whether such an arrangement as this was more monstrous than ridiculous, or more ridiculous than monstrous.—(Cheers.) The population of Cumber land being 155,000, became entitled to four Members ; though, if the calculation had been fairly made, it would be found to contain a population of only 115,000 ; because, in justice, those inhabitants who, by living in boroughs and towns, became entitled to votes there, ought to be dedu c t e d in c alculating the population of the county. This being the case, the half of Cumberland would give a poptt• lotion o f 57,500 ; and these were to be allowed to return two Members, while Chelsea, which was more populous, was not allowed to have any Member at a11..--(Hear, hear.) These were some of the arrangements of the Bill—arrange ments which were made he mustnotopnlbye,liebvuet,toasheita trick,teere by a trick; and whi c h till h e w a s s hown, that they were not,—(Cheers.) But it was useless for him to attempt to take the House all through there the i t this Bill he fact t was, that similar anomal ies, in j ustice, absurdities, and suspicions of favouritism.—(Cheers.) The smallest boroueh in England was provisions not pagee B in ao f h which h a d been enfranchised was Gateshead.The name must beon the lips of every Member. It was extraordinary, too, that one of the smallest counties in England had received th e most Members. The most flagrant instances of par tiality were to be found in the Bill, which could not be, h e was persuaded, known to gentlemen opposite; some of w h o m, he was sure, had not read the Bill. It was said that the Bill would make elections cheap; but, in fact, as polling place kept open for fifteen there note now only one days, and then th ere m i g h t b e fif teen po lli ng - p l aces , eac h k e pt open for two days, thus making the expence of the public double; that was not lessening the expence.— (H e ar.) There would be fifteen agents, fifteen poll clerks, fifteen tally-men, and there could be no termination to any contest like the one of the two days. A county election, which before cost 10,000/ , would henceforth cost 100,000/.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said they saved the travelling expences_that the people would eat less, and that there would not be so much to pay for eating. But the Noble Lord had himself, on a proposition being made to him to take the poll in parishes, replied, that that would increase the expence Of poll-clerks and agents, and would amount to more than the savings for carrying up the voters. But the expence would be otherwise increased. There moat be nomination, and an opportunity of addrees ing the county at large must be afforded to the candidates. The nomination was indispensable, and all the expellees o f it must be incurred. The voters must afterwards go f ro m the place of nomination to the fifteen polling places, thus increasing the expence. There must be travelling expellee , ' 50 , as he asserted, that nobody but a madman would contest a county, and a mailman endowed with prodigality. In 1767 there was a contested election for the county of Northampton. Mr. went down to Northampton, anti he writes thus to Mr. Garrick The candidate is a certain Lord .Althorp"—(" No, no 1" cheers.) what hae that rt Lord h Spenc er la If d i t d t o VnAeS wouldnot Lord a v A e 1 t d h o o n r e r h f or e d a i n d y n o o t t h a e u t p ut p o t le on the occasion. He would read the letter Our election is fixed for Thursday; Lord Spencer offers 40 pounds and 50 pounds for a vote. At pre sent the other two Lords hive a majority; but how mat- teas may fluctuate between this and the day of election it is impossible to foresee. I hope that Lord Spencer may not treat us to a riot." That showed that a riot even might take place between the day of nomination and the day of election. He would not proceed further into the detail of the Bill ; but to expose all the tire's of that luminous Bill .he must read it from beginning to end. The Right Hon. Member then referred to the Commissioners, to whom, he said, he would trust his honour; but he would not trust them with the power of deciding concerning the constituency of England. - To decide concerning the operation of the Refot m Bill was what he could not trust even to them. He found amongst those Com missioners the names of two Members of Parliament, both partisans to the friends of Reform ; and in parti cular he objected to the Hon. Member for Stafford shire, as a partisan of Reform, and also to the lion. Mem ber for Boilmin, who bad distinguished himself it, favour of the Ministers. He objected also to the Lord Chief Baron of Scotland being made•tbe Chief Commis loner. That was mixing up party with politics ; and if his Hon. Friends had done any thing of that kind, they would have received the most violent castigation possible, and they would have deserved it. Ti e R ght lion. Gent!e• man also objected to Sir Willoughby Gordon as the fourth Commissioner, who was at the same time a partisan. That gentleman had been off. red by Eatl Grey the Master-Ge neralship of the Ordnance, with a seat in the Cabinet, which he refused, out of no ivant of attachment to the party—not to say the faction—and who was still strongly attached to the Ministers. The Right lion. Member then al uded to the defeat of the Whig; at the late election at Great Grimsby, where the Reform B:11 hung round the necks of the candidates like a mill-stone. Would the House believe that one of the defeated candidates at Grimsby was another of the Commissioners ? and nothing but his own modesty would prevent him from sitting to decide on the boundaries of Grimsby. One of the agents o f this gentleman, who perambulated the borough, and who did his employer's business admirably—this agent was asked how he was defeated ? "Oh (he said), that Reform Bill did it."—(Cheers.) There must be a plaster for this defeat al o ; and this gentleman, with an auspicious name, the agent of the defeated candidate at Grimsby, was also made a Commissioner ; and nothine should prevent Mr. B. Kerr and Mr. Tallents from fixing the boundaries of Great G r im.ly.—(Cbeers.) There was another gentleman, ton, with a most auspicious name. He might be sent on the same errant'.—(Laught , r.) The Rev. Mr. Sheepshanks would make an admirable co operative with the gentleman he had mentioned.—(Loud laughter.) He did not, be it recollected, object to him because he was a clergyman. He believed he was an able man, but had also heard that which was not quite so de sirable—that the Rer. Gentleman was a warm political partisan.—(Herr, hear.) The next person on the list was a gentleman against whom no one could take an ob jection, or insinuate ought to the prejudice of his fairness and imp Irtiality, for he bad been made only the other week a Master in Chancery by the Lord Chancellor.—(Hear. and a laugh.) There was no one who knew anything of the eminent and excellent person now presiding over the Court of Chancery, who would not at once repudiate the idea of his promoting any man because he was a through going politician.—(Cheers, and laughter.) But, some how or other, there were tho-e who remembered the new Master in Chancery (Mr. Martin) as one of the most ar dent party men in the House, and as the gentleman who moved the second vote of censure on the Perceval Admi nistration.—(Hear.) After that he retired from public life, whether under the influence of Government or de clining years, he (Mr. Croker) was unable to say; but behold his ancient friend, the martyr to the Government, suddenly emerged into active life as a Master of Chancery. in the place of one who had been, forsooth, superannuates to make way for him.—(Cheers and laughter.) The nes' person on the list was one of the same name as the gen tleman whose Government they all doubtless remembered. and who it appeared had been made a rider, because he could not walk. The Hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Hawkins) had favoured the House last night wit! many meditated informations—(A laugh)—and, anion; other things, he had told them how .grievously it was ti suppose that a son could not at any time, from a sense of duty, act independent of the wishes of a father. Thi Hon. Member having uttered no argument that was not three weeks old, be had hazarded, by way of variety, that one observation by way of anticipation—(Hear, and a laugh)—that Harry Morton the elder, and Harry Morton the younger, were not at all likely to have any prejudices in common, and that they would make a couple of excdent Commissioners. He had now, however, nearly done with them. The Church, the Bar, and the Horse Guards,had been ransacked to find men to fill its ranks, and the Houta of Commons—that House which had never bowed to King or Keysar, had been advised to trust one of the most deli cate duties ever connected with its Constitution to—whom? Why, to the Cterk of the House of Lords. To the Cert. of the House of Lords they were to leave the poison of judging in the Tribunal of the First Instance who were to be the persons to return Members to the House of Commons. H. had now done with the commission: He hoped it would fail. He knew it would ; but he was not, because it would be a failure, to abstain from denouncing the mad and proili 4 ate attempt, or from holding it up to the contempt and ridicult of the House. Look, lie would ask, at the plan for registering the voters through the means of assistant barristers. They were to have five guineas a day. He thought they would be poorly paid at twenty, and by and by, if they asked that, they would get it. He (Mr. Croker) had one summer day, when in office, tried how many papers he could sign, and he found be got through between five and six thousand ; but the assistant barrister must decide casts as quickly as he (Mr. Croker) signed papers, if he got through the examination of the voters of any large county in less than ten days. He could tell the House that those gentlemen who were to be employed not one year, or two, but every year, must be made permanent officers, with salaries of 5001. or 600/. a .yrar ; and thus the House of Commons, which from the jealousy of patronage threw out the County Courts Bill, because it appointed forty bar. rasters as Judges, were now about to give the Govern ment the appointment of sixty-eight Judges of the same kind, who must have large salaries for the per formance of their very laborious duties.—( Hear, hear.) He would merely add the expression of his confidence, that if tl:e House of Lords suffered themselves to ba inti midated into the passing of the Bill, they would at once reach the crisis of insanity, and the revolution might b declared to be commenced. He did not mean that a re publican form of government would be at once established, but he believed it would be attempted, and he was sure the attempt would fail.—(Cheers.) But through what variety of untried theories, through what new schemes and new changes they might pass, who was to say ? There might be blood, there might be rapine and plunder.--(Hear.) He hoped not.—(Hear.) He heard an Hon. Member exp4ess surprise at his using such language,' The allusion was not his (Mr. Croket's). He echoed the language of those who declared that such things must be if .they did not pass the Bill; and he exclaimed now, that, in his opi nion, there was yet safety for England if they rejected the lidl.—(Cheers.) It was the lion. Gentleman op posite who raised the cry which produced excitement. It was the Noble Lord himself who first countenanced it. —(Cheers.) The vote of the House of Commons, and the use of the potent name of the King, created all the ex citement which threatened such alarming consequences.— (Cheers.) He knew the people of England well. They were not so much excited as obedient. They followed im plicitly the commands of the head of the constitutional anonai cliy. The people were not naturally; inclined to blood or to plunder; but they were toll that their entlim= siasm would be considered patriotism, and their viAence held to be legal ; and was it marvellous that they were both earnest and excited ?—(Hear, bear.) If the other House did their duty, they must acknowledge at the same time that the Members of the House of Commons had done theirs. They were a small minority, but they had done their duty to their country, and he would rather be a Member of that minority tha n of that double majority which at one moment voted Aldborough into schedule B, and in the next determined, with singular inconsistency, to keep Downton in schedule A. This much he would say, that lie believed they had done much good. The people were not insensible to reason or argument, and he i had good grounds to believe that the mpression produced by the irresistible powers of reas onin g on that side of the had House ouptoorftiodnooorsf the e h ekn Legislaturee it t o d b i d e within. If f its duty with the same zeal a nd honest y , then he would say he had no fear for Eng l a nd. Fro that that House, in deed, he expected much. Why was it that the Lords sgreat were surrounded with the pomp ,of rank ? Why was it they Were . clothed in ermine, and placed above their fellow men ? He would say it was because the service of the State required that it should be so. It was necessary chat on occasions like the present they should be removed from the vortex of popular prejudice. They were placed a s spectators: They would soon be called to act as Judges; and it was because they were to fill such a si tuation, that the Members of that House, who held themselves to be the equals of all, paid a willing deference w the House of Lords, and, as it were, with a proud hu mility, appeared at their Lordships' bar when summoned —public business lernanded their attendance. The Mem bers of that House—men justly proud of their situation, and holding themselves equal to the most exalted rank of the other free countries of Europe, set an example to their fellow subjects of the deference due to the House of Lords; end of the necessity of their observance which their situa tion demanded. From them, therefore, he repeated, he now expected much, and so far from saying that that House should save itself by yielding to intimidation, be would say that if the House of Lords could bring itself to act from any such base and contemptible motive, he would be against the Lords.—(Cheers.) For what was the House of Lords preserved in the possession of such ex clusive privileges but to act on an occasion such as that which now presented itself ; and it was for this that every friend of rational liberty had for the last few days looked up to the House of Lords for the triumph of the principles of the Constitution. He bad been educated in those prin ciples. He had been taught to venerate the House of Lords equally with the Crown itself, as a branch of the Constitution. He. venerated their office. He venerated their rights, and he would say to them, now or never must you maintain them.—(Cheers.) What, he would say, was the use of the Lords ? Was it to register the edicts of the House of Commons.—(Cheers•) Were they never to differ on any subject which came before them. —(Hear.) They might be supposed to be allowed to hold a different opinion about a Road Bill, correct a mistake on the Wine Duties, or pass a Turnpike Bill. On these and such like pettifogging points, they were, he supposed, to maintain their character of forming a part of the Constitu tion—(Cheers)—but on Ibis question, the moat important that ever came before them, they were not to be allowed any liberty of opinion. —(Hear, hear.) When out of 36,000 voters, there were only to be found 1,600 of a ma jority in favour of the Bill. When in the fullest House of Commons that ever was assembled, with 302 Membe►s dividing against 301—and if that were the time, what might he not say of that one—was it, be would ask, ex traordinary that the House of Lords should be permitted to pause and deliberate before they yielded to the language of clamour and intimidation with which they were assailed? lie said that this was the most important measure that ever cams before them. It was more important, he hesi tated not to say, than the question of the revolution. It was more important, he was prepared to contend, than the Hanoverian Succession. These were mere temporal, or, perhaps, personal questions. They were conneet.d with the natural lives of men, but the present question affected the interests of posterity to a degree far beyond any which that Noef•c had had to decide on for cen turies. It was their duty to transmit unimpaired to their descendants the rights, time liberties, and the glories that had been handed down to them falai their forefathers, and they had contended fur these rights with perfect independ ence of ail interested motives, without the prospect of place, and he believed he might say, without any desire Fur power.—(Hear, hear.) If, however, the Bill came down from the House of Lords with an intimation that it vas not disposed to adopt it as an improvement in the System of representation, he had strong reliance on the wisdom and firmness of the House of Commons in the course which they might determine to adopt. He believed that the Members of that anise were not indifferent to the necessity of preserving the privileges of that body un impaired, and that they were not insensible to the fact that if they drove the Lords from their curule chair., the Commons would not long be allowed to retain possession of their matted benches. Violence dope to the Lords, would he a sure prelude of violence to the House of Com mons, for all history bore testimony to the fact that those who incited the rabble, in such cases, to outrage anti poliation, were always theme:lves eventually sacrificed by the power which their passions had raised. But by a ready and candid obedience to the Constitution ; by that just deference to the determination of the House of Lords, whatever it might be, to which that important branch of the Legislature was justly entitled, the House of Commons vould consult their own peace, and establish the quiet of England. The star of the Constitution was still shining brightly in the heavens. By following that star, they would weather the dangers which threatened them, and although the prospect was dark and lowering, would sur vive the violent tempest in which they were involved.— (Loud and long-continued acclamations.) Mr. STANLEY cordially concurred in the concluding observation of the Right lion. Gentleman, namely, that by following the star of the Constitution, they would weather the dangers which threatened them, and although the prospect was dark and lowering, would survive the tem pest in which they were involved.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that that expectation would be verified by the fact, and he believed that it would be so verified whenever the Bill before the House should pass.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had apologised for his shrinking modesty—(A laugh)—but, unquestionably his ingenuity had been more conspicuous than his diffidence. Nothing could be more ingenious then the manner in which the Right Hon. Gentleman, after the overwhelming eloquent speech of the Hon. Member for Calne—a speech taking ,e:e most comprehensive view of the question, not only as a Reformer, but as a Statesman—nothing coted be more ingenious than the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman pursued. For what did the Right Hon. Gentleman do? Flinching from any examinations of the great principles of the measure, the Right Hon. Gentleman read a funeral oration over the opposition ro it iu that House, and uttered a predic tion of its loss to the House of Lorde. As to the Bill itself, the Right Hon. Gentleman confined himself to jokes on the names of the Commissioners—to stating that one was afflicted with the gout, and that another happened to be called Sheepshanks, and to similar witticisms—and to cer tain details discussed over and over again in the Com mittee, which was the proper place for their investiga tion—the question before the House being simply, " that this Bill do pass."—(llear, hear, hear.) In the frightful sttte in which the Right Hon. Gentleman supposed the country to be, it was some satisfaction to find that be was enabled to withdraw his mind from the contemplation of that state, and to devote it for no less than two hours to lighter matters, and to subjects of comparatively trifling importance. If any stranger had entered the House, and had heard the two hours' speech of the Right Hon. Gen tleman, he would scarcely have supposed, after listening to the language, seeing the gestures, and observing the tones of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the House were en gaged in considering the last and irrevocable stage of a measure which the Right Hon. Gentleman had himself characterised as being more important even than the revoe lution.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In the details into which the Right Hon. Gentleman had entered, he hail been betrayed into the grossest mistakes and mis.statemente. He had renewed the charge repeated over and over agent, and which, whenever it had been made, had been treated with due indignation and contempt by those against whom it was levelled, namely, that his Majesty's Government had been actuated by a base and partial favouritism in drawing the line of qualification which the Bill contained. After having referred to the cases of St. Germains and Westbury, in both of which he was in error, the Right Hon. Gentle man had asserted that the supporters of the measure had been drawn into the division of counties by the sense of the House and by the sense of the country. And yet the division of counties was one of the provisions of the Bill when originally brought in by his Noble Friend. The peop'e never heard of the Reform Bill until they also heard of the proposed division of counties. But the Right Hun. Gentleman declared that so fAr from extending, they had actually diminished the constituency of the counties [Mr. CROSER-Towns.] That was not fair to take a part of the plan. Generally, there was no diminution of the consti tuency. The Right Hon. Gentleman also esserted that the expence of the polls would be increased. That he (Mr. Stanley) denied. It was true that theme must be fifteen poll-booths under the Bill. But so there must as the law at present stood. The only difference was, that at present the fifteen booths must all be erected in one place, whereas, under the Bill, they must be erected in different places. The Right Hon. Gentleman then at tacked the Commissioners who were to be appointed under the Bill—not their personal and private character. Oh, no ! The Right Hon. Gentleman would trust them with his life—he would trust them with his honour—hut he would not trust them with a Turnpike Bill! A proof this that the Right Hon. Gentleman had no very high opinion of political honour.—(Hear, hear.) It so hap pened, that of the two Members of that House appointed Commissioners, one of them had frequently divided against Ministers with reterence to the Bill. But even were the Commissioners as politically iniquitous as the Right Hon. Gentleman supposed them to be, it should be recollected that their award was not final ; but that it must be sub tnitted to, and confirmed by Parliament. On the topic of the appointment of barristers, the Right Hon. Gentleman had supposed that a difficulty would exist which he (Mr. Stanley) confessed he did nut apprehend; and be had amused the House with a conversation be tween five pounds and five shillings, carried on in a tone of pleasantry not exactly becoming the last stage • of " this atrocious and revolutionary measure."—(Hear.) Not one word had the Right Hon. Gentleman tittered from the beginning to the end of the speech, on the effect likely to be produced by the attainment of the great object. de:i eeribed in the preamble of the Bill. Not one wor.dsboan he uttered with reference to all those great . 1; which the minds, the hearts, the a ff ection., 1 ., , , e 1 r, ti I bear.) of the people of England were set.--(!;ear, the Bill The Right Hon. Gentleman had told alone ato th r a r t a ll ud ou u s2 buthad b be e e i n ut co il completely altered ther. leading principle*: on w to_ •. h a d, been altered.—(Hear, hear. f un beds " an' , the •ci of the 11 . 11? Hid I e fuombed o, A ar eche,lttle B been altered ? Hati change been made m me principle l ian tl rev rei l e t ar o t t. s t o h rt e h e people of ye it to, the Ler it had Lord GO yen to it he 1 1 ° W$ nches nd but tb`l en a t i a nd elk ncr he felt s )3r the Pre been no The M'