The Sun. — London, England, 1834-06-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 26. The SPE*KER resumed the , chair at five o'clock. The Sheriffs of London appeared at the bar with a petition from the Lora Mayor, Aldermen, and Com mon Council of the - city of Lonctan,. praying thal they might be heard by counsel against the bill regu- Jilting the office of ward constable. A person from the India House presented papers. —Ordered to be printed. Colonel L YGON presented a petition from Welton against the claims of the dissenters.—Ordered to lie on the table. On the motion of Mr. LANODALE, the Bill for legalizing the marriages of Roman Catholics by their own clergy in England and Wales was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Wed nesday next, Mr. HAWES presented a petition from a benefit society. The prwier we did not hear. On the Intition of the LORD ADVOCATE of Beotland; the Scotch Quarter Sessions Accountant- Geseral Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday. Lord HOTH A M presented a petition against the admission of dissenters into the Universities from Brimstcm (as we understood. )—Ordered to lie on the table. On the motion of Mr. HUME, a return was ordered showing how a sum of 2,0001. advanced some time back to the parish of Bethnal Green had been dis posed of. Mr. WALTER presented a petition- from certain owners and occupiers of land. We could not hear the prayer of the petition. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Lord C H ANDO S gave notice that on the ith of July he should move a resolution relative to the pre sent state of agricultural distress. FINANCE. AND SAVINGS' BANKS. Mr. A. BARING wished to be informed by the noble lord at what time he intended to bring forward his statement on the finances of the country. He %could take :this opportunity of putting another ques tion to the noble lord. Some time'back he asked the noble lord whether it was true, as reported, that any part of the stock standing in the name of Savings' Banks was to be sold. The noble lord told him not. Be admitted that the security of Savings' Banks 'would not thereby be diminished. He now asked the noble lord whether he abided by his former answer? Toe prevailing opinion now was that it must be sold, and that was now employed in paying off the Four per Cents. He asked the noble lord whether it was so or not ? Lord ALTHORP said he did not recollect having tnld his hon. friend that no part of that stock was to be sold. What he stated upon the occasion alluded to, in answer to th e q ue s ti on o f hi s h on . 'friend, was, that it was not to be sold for the purpose of being applied to the payment of West India proprietors under the bill for abolishing slavery. Soine sales in this stock for (as we tuiderstood) the other purposes mentioned by the hon . gentleman did take place, bur not to a large amount. With respect to the financial state meet, he should be prepared to bring it forward at an early day after the close of the present quarter. Mr. BARING gave notice that he should take a future opportunity of moving for a return of the amount of Savings' Banks' Stock sold under the au thority of the Treasury. Mr: HUME asked at what time the return of plu ralities, for which he moved on the Bth of May, would be ready ? Lord ALTHORP did not know, but would make inriry. MR. STANLEY AND MR. O'CONNOR. Mr. F. O'CONNOR said be hoped the house would permit him to say a few words in explanation of a circumstance that occurred yeiterday. On the Morning of that day he presented a petition on the *abject of the Dungarvan election. From what oc curred after in the house, .when he was not present, it appeared that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Stanley) was impressed with an idea that he had brought an accusation against him of unworthy conduct in refe rence to that election. This he could assure him was a total mistake. It would require very strong evi dence to convince him.that the right hon. gentleman had done any thing inconsistent with the nicest ho nour,'"and no evidence could convince him that be was guilty of what he was said to have been charged with. There was more than one mistake in what he was reported to have said. He did not say that he obtained the letters from the member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell), but that he had them from the member for Dungarvan, and that they had been for some time in the possession of the member for Dub lin. As to the charge of the want of courtesy, he be lieved, indeed he was certain, that he had mentioned the circumstance to the right hon. gentleman that the matter was to be alluded to,- not-by him (Mr. O'Con nor) for the fact was, that when he saw the right hon. gentleman he did not know that he would have occasion to introduce the subject. Mr. STANLEY said he could have nothing more to say upon the subject after the very handsome man ner in which the hon. gentleman had explained the circumstance of the case. Mr. LITT LETON would appeal to the members who neard the hon. gentleman, whether be did not say that he received the letters from the member for Dublin, not the member for Dungarvan. Mr. F. O'CONNOR said he might in mistake have said Dublin in place of Dungarvan. POST OFFICE. Mr. WALL AC E rose, pursuant to notice, to bring the department of the Post Office under the attention of the house. He was aware that he had undertaken A. task of great magnitude, and wished it had fallen into abler hands. The truth was, that the department of the Post-office required immediate revision, and it would be for the advantage of the country to put it entirely on a different foot ing. On a former night he had expressed his en tire satisfaction at the conduct of the Postmaster- General, in relation to transactions with France. Ile was at a loss to understand upon what authority a volume of documents, entitled " Papers on the Post office," had been printed and placed in the hands of members, since they had not the sanction of the Speaker, and had never been ordered by the house. The Postmaster-General there took no little credit to himself, but it would be found that every beneficial change he had adopted had been previously recom mended in one of the reports of the commissioners. He would take leave in the outset to lay down cer tain great principles :-1. That the head of no de partment ought to be allowed to delegate his duties to another. 2. That no monopoly ought to be permitted to exist. 3. That the public money ought not to he applied to the purpose of speculation. 4. That it is contrary to all sound principle that any department in the receipt of revenue should also have the right to disburse that revenue.- The. - money received in each department ought to be paid into the general deposi tory of the treasury, mid from thence paid out when sufficient grounds could be established.. An immense sum of money was at this time emphsyed in specu lations, and a system of favouritism and jobbing of a most unwarrantable kind Mil kept up. Nothing could be more unconstitutional than the office of Postmaster-General, and the patent involved even the privileges of the two houses of Parliament.. He de nied the assertion of the member for Northampton, on, a former night, that he had endeavoin# to procure an advantage for the town of Greenock 44.iich he repre sented, and be read a letter he had written to the' Postmaster-General, asking if (as its representative) he had a right to recommend a new postmaster for Greenock, the*Trmer officer having died. fie did not claim the - r*ht, he only asked if he had it, mean-', ing to place the matter in the hands of the Treasury, without exercising his right. The hon. member then complained of the system on which the intercourse by letters was carried on between England and France, asserting that .the expense was too great, and the French post-office had offered the most liberal terms to this country, which had not beetw accepted. He objected also to the detention of the mails in London on Sunday, by which the intercourse with the whole civilized world was suspended for the want of a few servants who could attend to the duties of the Post office on the Sabbath. After discussing this point, the hon. member adverted to the department of the Se cretary to the Post-office, and explained the nature of his duties from the documents upon the table. The next department to which he 'would direct the atten tion of the house, was the mail-coach-office depart ment. The great argument always held out in favour of our mail-coach system was its great regularity and despatch, but he was ready to prove that there were many lines of road in England on which the heavy coaches went with more regularity and equal expedi tion with the mail. He contended that the mails ought to be made of a larger size, so as to carry, not only letters and newspapers, but pamphlets of all des .riptions ; and this he was sure could be done without impeding them, or diminishing their expedi tion. He knew that there were many heavy coaches leaving London daily, which carried double the weight which the mails did, yet they went with equal speed and regularity. There was another subject con ' nected with the management of the Post , office which he could not refrain froth alluding to, as he considered it a great hardship. He meant that system by which no place Was left open in the metropolis for the recept i on or letters between seven o'clock on Saturday even i ng and Monday morning. ( Hear, hear.) He could see nu just reason for this regulation, and he knew that it i was attended with 'great hardship in many instances. He considered it also a hardship on London that there was only one departure of the mails in the course of the day. In the compdratively small town which lie had the honour of representing there were four departures, and in Liverpool there were no less than six. Why, then, should there be but one from the capital of the country ? It was, he believed, given as a reason that the Post-office had too much business. That lie con sidered as no reason. The Post-office was a mere trading company, and it Might to be managed on the principles which regulated the transactions of all other trading companies ; and he never had heard of any trading company, excepting the Post office itself, which complained of having too much bu siness. He contended that there ought to be at least two departures from London. ( Hear.) The Post office ought to be not a mere engine for the gathering of revenue, as it was at present ; its primary object ought to be the benefit and accommodation of the public, and the revenue to be derived from it should be only a secondary consideration. In his opinion, it ought to be put on such a footing that two mails should leave London daily--one at twelve o'clock at noon, and the other at the hour at which the mail at present leaves, or any other hour which might be more advantageous, according to arrangement. This ar rangement would be of particular advantage, especially on the north road, and he considered that it should be dote on the same principle that three mail packets were despatched daily for Ireland from Holyhead. He was not illiberal, he did not wish that the number of packets sent to Ireland should be di minished, for he did not begrudge to that-coun try any advantages it . I enjoyed, but he thought that England and Scotland were entitled to similar advantages, and he therefore contended that they should be extended to them. The next department to which he would allude, was that of solicitor of the Post-office, and he was sure that many things were done within the office of that functionary of which the Postmaster-General knew nothing. In Scotland the solicitor demanded that letters should be sent to him in order that he might prosecute the leiges. This, he contended, was illegal, and such was the opinion in other quarters, for in England the Postmaster-General had put a stop to the practice of his own accord. He contended that those who were fined by sentences under such prosecutions ought to have their money re turned, because the prosecution was illegal, and they ought not to have been fined' at all. A case had oc curred in Glasgow in which a person had incurred penalties to the amount of 570/. It was stated that the prosecution had proceeded on information, but that was not the fact ; for it turned out that the war rant and informations were dated before the offence had been committed. Now, in that case, the post-office must have opened the letters without any information, and he contended that in doing_- so the authorities were guilty of felony. The hon. member then proceeded to contend that the system followed by the Post-office in Scot land, in regard to prosecutions, was much more harsh and severe than in England or Ireland. By the return laid upon the table, he found that in England the number of prosecutions, at the instance of the Post office, was 200, and in Scotland 524 ; while in Ireland it was only 18. The system was to send a person to • the coach offices to open parcels suspected of contain ing letters, and in cases of their containing none, the parcels were closed again and forwarded. In the case to which he had alluded, two parcels were seized ; the one contained no letters, the other contained valuable property, and letters which had reference to the pro perty contained in the parcel. The one parcel *as sent forward, but the other was detained, and the parties were fined and imprisoned. Now, if it was felony to open letters, what was it to open parcels ? ( Hear, hear.) He knew• that the system of opening parcels was felt as highly inconvenient. An attorney at Gloucester haa told him that so severely was it felt, that a number of gentlemen in that town had determined to employ a person to go occasionally to London by the mail to defend their parcels. The hon. member then contended that the return made in consequence of a motion of his was deficient, in so far as it did not give the'places where the informations were laid ; but the reason of the omission lie could understand, as no such informations had been lodged, and it would be inconvenient, therefore, to state the places. (Hear, hear.) He condemned this system of proceeding as an encouragement to the solicitor to institute them, for every fine that put 21. 10s. into the Exchequer, Put 151. into the pocket of the solicitor; so that the solicitor was anxious to institute prosecutions. He • admitted that it was difficult to bring home charges against the Post-office, because it was conducted in such a cunning manner that there was no discovering particulars. ( Hear.) He condemned also the system of favouritism, by which some persons had an earlier delivery of their letters than others. The hon. member then complained of a case which happened to himself lately in having two letters detained, the one for three days, and the other for one day. He had made inquiry of the secretary of the Post-office, but the answer was, that after a most minute inquiry, no account could be given of where the letters had been detained. He left it to the house then to say whether the Post-office was conducted with that absolute security to the public which was claimed for it. He condemned the system of having two post-offices, a general and a two-penny post-office. There could be no reason for separate establishments ; but the two-penny post-office obliged the people to pay a penny or two-pence more for their letters, and this was made a source of revenue ; and this, he contended, was not a time when they ought to derive a revenue from the poor man for the delivery of his letter or newspaper. He admitted that there were many excellencies in the system under which the Post office department was conducted, but there were also many blots, and it was in order to have them rubbed out that he wished for an inquiry. Why should not every country town have the same advantages in regard to the two-penny post as the metropolis ? He contended that if the limits of the two-penny post extended to twelve miles round London, they should be to the same extent in every town in the kingdom. He had before him a paper which showed the French system of charging postage. It was such that no man could be cheated, for every post-master was obliged to have a copy of the laws, and to show them when demanded ; so that every man could see the exact amount he ought to pay. He deprecated the system of the Sunday post. Letters did not come to the metropolis on Sunday, and what was the consequence ? The consequence was, that they remained in the country post-offices during that day, and then _was the time when oppor tunities were given of opening them and extracting money from them. ( Hear, Near.) He ( Mr. Wallace) had moved for a return of 'those who were informed against, but that was refused, and only the names of those who were prosecuted given. The reason was obvious. The heads of the Post-office department took upon themselves the prhilege of prosecuting or not, just as they pleased, and they did not wish to show for' what reasons they forbore to prosecute. He did not believe it was in the King's prerogative to grant such a power, or even to grant the powers given by the Postmaster-General's patent ; for he did not believe them to be constitutional. ( Hear, hear.) In consequence of the mails not starting on Sundays, a letter could not be sent from London under any emer gency. An Hos. MEMBER—The mails go. Mr. WA LLAC E—The mail-coaches go, but not the mails. Ab ( Hear.) The coaches go, because it is the interest of the proprietors that they should carry passengers. ( Heir.) As an instance of the hard ship to which the system led, he would mention a case which fell within his own knowledge. He happened to beat Charing Cross post-office on a Saturday evening, when the mail was about to start, and a man, who stated himself to be a servant of Lord Frederick Fitzclarence, came up and begged to have a letter sent to a brother of his at Birmingham, who was dying, and to whom he wished to send money. The thing could not be done without subjecting the poor man to a heavy penalty, and consequently his letter could not leave town till the following Monday evening. This was enough to show the hardship to which this system led. The hon. member then alluded to the steam packet department, which was undertaken by the Post-office as a speculation, and in the face of the advice which could be given by those who best under stood the subject. Had the motion which he (Mr. Wallace) made at the commencement of the session been agreed to, all this would have been avoided. With regard to the manner in which the Post-office had gone about building their steam-boats, he must say that it was different from that which I was followed in all other cases. In other casetregard was invariably had to the expense as well as to qua lity of the workmanship. It was far differei; here. i The orders were given to, have the boats buil, with out any stipulations as to the expense. Thiconse-- quence was, that the work was done in the thst ex travagant manner. The Post-office ought to ave no beats of their own, but shduld hire them from )ersons who had. This would effect a very great tying ; and, indeed, the committee appointed some tint since to inquire into matters connected with the trans mission of the mails to Ireland, recommendd that boats be hired by contract for the purpose. lie in terests of his constituents were so seriously Acted by the competition occasioned by the Poe-office steam-boats, that they had offered to Government to carry the mails for nothing, rather that their trade should be altogether destroyed, on the c didition that they would withdraw their vessels. Lverpool had made the same offer, but in both cases it Isd been refused. At Holyhead there is an immense number of steam-packets—far more, indeed, than it neces sary; and this immense establishment of paclets was kept in the most extravagant manner. The) carried so many passengers, as seriously to injure the trade of the Liverpool Company. That Company, as he only expedient they could have recourse to in theeircum stances of the case, came to a resolution to redtce their fares ; but in order still to carry on the correetition with the Liverpool traders, and do them every possi ble injury, the Post-office packets actually cane to the determination of carrying passengers for nothing ; and in the short space of a few weeks, did care about 6,000 persons across the channel, without maling any charge. The consequence of the system on wiich the Post-office establishment was carried on, is, thit it has entailed on the. country a very large unnecesswy ex pense. That expense, since 1821, including theinterest of the money, had been estimated at 1,200,00. A. deal of indignation bud been expressed, it refer ence to the way in which the Post-office had been con ducted in Ireland ; but none as to the way in which the Post-office was conducted in Scotland, notwith standing the notorious fact that there had been so much mismanagement there. The house must be aware that a system of fraud had been acted on in the Post office in Edinburgh, some years since, to a very' great extent, and that a great many individuals connected with that establishment had been implicated in it. He wished the house to recollect, that the same parties as had the direction of matters connected with the Post office then, held the same situations now. Sir Fran cis Freeling was Secretary then as he is now. With regard to the transmission of the mails to Ireland, he was certain that if Scotland were allowed to enter into competition with Holyhead, they would soon show Government what could be done in tl:e way of reducing the enormous expense at present at tending their conveyance thither. Why should the mails not be allowed to start from Glasgow ? It was quite monstrous that the existing system should be continued. A board of commissioners was necessary for the conduct of the Post-office business, because it was impossible that any one individual could give it the requisite attention. There was another griev ance connected' with the administration of Post-office affairs, to which he had not yet alluded. That was the inconvenience to which certain towns and districts were put from the arrangements at present existing as regarded the receipt of their letters. The Kelso mail to 13erwick, distance 23 miles, goes to Edinburgh, being 40 miles, thence to Berwick by the London mail from Edinburgh, being a distance of 96 miles ; the consequence is, a letter going 23 miles, which, mea sured by time, is two hours and a half ; four days is oc cupied in receiving an answer in place of six hours. The Edinburgh Post-office arrangements, specially or dered by the Postmaster-General were, that letters for Kelso leave Edinburgh by the Carlisle mail at 7 in the morning, proceed to Selkirk, turn back at Ha wick, thence to Melrose, thence to Kelso—distance 75 miles, direct road 40. The direct mail ; the cur ride one passes within 6 miles of Kelso. The Post master-General refused to fill up the communication of this short space,which would accommodate a wealthy and interesting district. One consequence of the present absurd and inconvenient arrangements as to the deli-j very of letters and newspapers was, that instead of being put into the Post-office they were often given to the coachmen, who scattered them in every direction through which they passed. He was sorry to hear it objected to an alteration of the existing system with respect to a more speedy and efficient delivery of letters and newspapers, that it would be attended with additional expense. The additional expense would only be trifling, and what would that be to an esta blishment which cost the country from 000,000/. to 70G,0001. a year. He would now call the attention of She house to the evidence of the late Postmaster- General, when examined by a committee of that house on the subject of the most efficient way of transacting the business of the Polt.:office. That evidence speaks volumes, and in favour of the appointment of a board. He (Mr. Wallace) denied, however, that the head of the department had any real duties to perform. The whole of the business was done, in point of fact, by the Secretary, and that too in a way that was open to very great objection. All communications ad dressed to the Postmaster-General were dealt with by the Secretary. .He made a minute of his opinion on the outside of them, and in this state they were laid before the chief of the office, who seldom, if ever, took the trouble to • consult more than the out side ; but he denied that this was the proper mode of doing the public business. ( A laugh.) The hon. gentleman complained that the Secretary of th . e L l e r e is s h , Post-office, which was on all hands allowed to have been improperly conducted, should have been sent to Scotland at a reduced salary. He did not mean to convey any reflection on the character of Sir E who was, he believed, a highly efficient and honourable j man, but he certainly must condemn the system as bad in every point of view in which it could be regarded. Sir Edward Lees got no compensation. He (Mr. WO did not complain of this, but the late Secretary of the Irish Post-office enjoyed an official income of 1,450 L, and a comfortable house and furniture in Dublin, but was removed to Scotland at a salary of 6001., with a house but no furniture. Surely if compensation was extended to any one, Sir Edward Lees should not have been excluded. With regard to the office of Postmaster- General, he (Mr. W.) thought that he, as a mere political officer, must always be at the mercy of the secretary. When appointed to the office he could have little or no knowledge of the details of the department over which he was to preside; and that hem.. the case, the secretary had the power, if he wished to exercise it, of keeping him completely in the dark. The late Secretary for the Colonies on a motion respecting the state of Canada called for a committee of inquiry, because he said the government were put upon their trial ; and, haVing now put the Post-office on its trial, he ( Mr. Wallace) hoped the course which was taken with respect to Canada would be followed in the present instance, if it were, only to disabuse his mind of the impressions which he enter tained. If those impressions were erroneous they ought to be removed;. but if, on the contrary, they were well founded, 'surely it was the bounden duty , of the government tit take some step in order to correct the abuses which he had pointed out. In a speech which the noble lord (Lord Althorp) delivered on the 14th Of December, 1830, he said, " I thank God the time has arrived when the system of governing the country by means of patronage has passed away for ever." And now, when there was an end of the influence of the noble duke, he hoped the noble lord would bear in mind this sentiment, which was well worthy not only of his own consideration but of that of the Government of which he was a leading member. ( Hear.) He was willing to admit that the noble duke's administration of the affairs of the Post office had given the utmost satisfaction ; that it was alike advantageous to the public and creditable to him self. ( Hear, hear.) But, notwithstanding he was bound to speak well of the conduct of the noble duke, he was at the same time ready to assert that he had made out a case that called for inquiry. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving----" That an humble address be presented to his- Majesty, praying that he will be graciously pleased to appoint a commission to inquire into the management of the Post-office and packet service." Mr. B LIL WE R thought there were many matters connected with this subject which rendered inquiry desirable ; amongst others of considerable importance, w as the deficiency in the payments to the revenue, amounting on the average to 517/. 14s. 3d. weekly. His hon. friend had alluded to the situation of solicitor to the Post-office. The salary of the individual who - held this appointment was 3001. a year ; and it was generally thought that this sum was all that the gen tleman received from the public on account of his pro fessional assistance. The fact was, however, that this 300/. was paid only as a kind of retaining fee, and that the annual emoluments of the office were not less than 2,500/. Hon. gentlemen opposite might doubt his statement, but he gave it on the authority of the report of the committee of 1829. Now it was an admitted principle that a solicitor ought not to have an interest in creating legal difficulties, and in increasing the correspondence, for his share of which he charged at the rate of 6s. Bd. per letter. The Solicitor to the Post-office, like other solicitors to public bodies, ought to derive his whole emolument from a fixed salary. He would next speak of the Two-penny Post depart ment. The average mileage of the general post was 71. per mile for the year ; but throughout the two penny post offices it amounted to 11/. for the year. Struck with the disparity, the commissioners who were formerly appointed, after investigating the mat ter, suggested an expedient by which they might get rid of the whole of the expense of the mileage. The proposal was that a contract should be entered into with the proprietors of the regular coaches on the roads, who should be made to give security 1 for the proper discharge of the duty entrusted to them ; it was at the same time suggested that their remuneration should consist in their being ex empted from the payment of the turnpike tolls. This it was thought would pay the short stages amply for carrying•the bags, and while the public would get all the advantage of the business being performed, there would be saved the whole of the extravagant charge for mileage. He must say that he did not, as a ge neral principle, approve of the appointment of boards for the despatch of business ; responsibility was unne cessarily weakened by so trusting to five persons a duty that might be discharged by one. But in the case of the Postmaster-General, the individual ought to be one who was accustomed to the routine of busi ness, and who was completely master of all the details connected with his particular office. (Hear, hear.) The principle that ought to be kept in view by him who was at the head of the Post-office, was the great medium of communication of all private and public interests, and how far he could extend the advantages of that communication. Was that principle likely to be acted on under the present system ? Now, if a duke resigned, they must look out for an earl or a marquis to fill his place. ( Hear.) He did not wish to discourage noblemen from taking office, but regard ought to be had to their being in every respect fully qualified. - They at least ought not to be invariably selected to the exclusion of other persons, who, if per manently appointed, would gain greater experience,• and discharge their duties,. more efficiently. During the last ten years education had increased, commerce had increased, and there had been more political' excitement than usual, which always occasioned an additional amount of correspondence. Notwithstand ing this, the revenues of the Post-office during the last ten years had been stationary. (Hear, hear.) - It was calculated that the relief afforded to the public for the last ten years in the reduction of charges, amounted to 25,000/. ; but the postages of letters had increased to the amount of 15,000 letters a day. In 1829 the average number of letters was 15,000 a day less than at present. If, then, they took that calcula tion as their basis, it would be found that the revenue had increased more than five times the amount of the 25,0001. from which the public was relieved. Dur ing the last ten years, in which period the revenue of the English Post-office was stationary, that of the post-office of France had doubled. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that on these facts they must arrive to one of three conclusions. Either our scale of charges for the transmission of letters was too high ; or the revenue of the Post-office was not well ma naged ; or the expenses of the establishment were not in a fair proportion; to the profits. ( Hear, hear.) Whatever the cause of the deficiency, he thought that a sufficient case was made out for an inquiry. In the hope; then, that the noble lord opposite would not re fuse his consent to the proposed investigation, he would conclude with seconding the motion of his hon. friend. The SPEAKER having put the question, Mr. VERNON SMITH said he had undertaken to offer a few observations to the house on this question, having been personally solicited to do so by the noble duke who had lately presided over the Post-office de partment. He trusted, however, that the house would do him the justice to believe that he would not appear there merely as an advocate ; he assured them that his views entirely coincided with the statements that he was authorised to make. He begged further to assure therh that in all the intercourse that he had ever had with the noble duke, he had found in him the greatest candour, combined with the most perfect willingness to entertain such objections as might be made to any of the proceedings of the Post office, and if he thought the suggestions worthy of consideration, and subsequently of adoption, he invari ably carried them into execution with that integrity of purpose which distinguished his manly character, and which made his secession from office, if he ( Mr. Smith) might here allude to such a subject—a severe depriva tion, (Hear, hear.) He would now address himself to a few of the facts of the hon. gentleman opposite, if such his statements could be called, after he himself had told the house that he gave them without being able to vouch for their accuracy. One of the charges made against the Postmaster-General was, that he had produced certain information to the house ; and it was asked, was it ever heard of before that a Postmaster- General volunteered information ? It was rather ex traordinary that at the very moment when this objec tion was stated, the hon. gentleman submitted a mo tion to the house, the object of which was, to obtain information. As regarded the information being vo lunteered, however, it would have been well if the hon. gentleman had searched the journals of the house before he made the charge ; because; if he had so done, he would have found that, on the 4th or sth of March last, the paper in question was ordered by the house, a motion to that effect being made and agreed to. Before the hon. gentleman recommended the re newal of the old commission which had been appointed, he ought to consider to what extent the arrangements he had in view were already in existence. The hon. gen tleman suggested that the revenue of the Post-office ought to be kept completely under the control of a reve nue board ; to this it might be replied, that it was so at present ; for no money derived from the establishment could he expended without the sanction of the Lords of the Treasury. The hon. member for Middlesex might think this an incompetent board, but he must at all events admit it was not correct to affirm that the Post-office revenue was not under any control. The hon. gentleman had recommended that Sunday mails should be established. He ( Mr. Smith) bad per sonally no objection to them ; but he believed that the hon. gentleman would find considerable difficulty in obtaining the sanction of the house to his proposition. ( Hear, hear:) He would remind the hon. gentleman that Sabbath Bill number one and Sabbath Bill num ber two were not yet disposed of ( Hear, hear) ; and he would submit that it might be considered a strange affront to the hon: member who had brought in those bills, to propose, in direct opposition to them, the tra velling of mails On the Sunday. ( Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME (we believe) said the mails go now. . Mr. V. SMITH continued. He knew they did so,; but theY were not publicly sanctioned, as they would be by the conveyance of the mails. He, however, would leave the hen. gentleman to settle this, matter in his own Way with the house: The hon. gentleman, in referring to this point, had brought some severe charges against Sir Francis Freeling. He said that Sir Freeling wished to enjoy his Sundays. Notv he (:Mr. Smith) did not think it very unnatural that such a wish should be entertained ( Hear) ; but it could hardly be'supposed that that consideration alone would be sufficient to prevent the institution of Sunday mails. ( Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman had other grounds or complaint against the Post-office Secretary. He admitted him to be the civilest of all public officers, but he at the same time quarrelled with him for taking on himself authority-. The hon. gentleman's recom inendation was a board with a secretary ; but what board could be mentioned, the secretary or chairman of which had not - the principal authority? (Hear, hear.). The Secretaries of the Admiralty and 'Tree sury Boards were in constant co mniumcatiori with other public bodies. There must be one person who was in fact the executive authority, to whom matters "of detail were delegated. As regarded thecrn o pensation the Secretary to the Post-office t to /ce ceive, that was not p ro perly a subject of Post -0 e inquiry. If the hon. gentleman thought the present salary too much, let him bring the matter as a distinct motion before the house, when no doubt it would be dealt with as the house dealt with every other claim of justice; and he would remark, that he believed the present claim to be as strictly - founded in justice as a claim could be. (Hear.) But if it was not, it was a financial matter for the house, and it was unfair to bring it now forward in aggravation of the charges made against the Post-office. The hon. gentleman recommended that the contracts for the lines of road shoUld be open to competition, and they were.so; but it was not thought discreet to trust in every case to the highest bidder so important a contract as that of the conveyance of mails. The office was limited, therefore, to a certain number of persons, who were known to be responsible, and to be the most likely to undertake the business with all the responsibility • the practice was to take the highest off e r ma d e by those individuals. The hon. gentleman had talked of a new scheme, but he was at a loss to discover in what it consisted. It appeared to him that tho lion. gentleman laid down no broad principle, but confined himself to I little matters of detail. If it were proposed to abandon ! the revenue derived from the Post-office, and to make I the establishment a means of communication only, that ould be a tangible question, and would be a fair matter for the consideration of the house • but the hon. member for Greenock had not gone that length, and he was not aware that the hon. member for Mid dlesex had ( Hear) ; at all events it did not appear to him that such a reduction would be much in accord ance with the present state of the revenue. The hon. member for Greenock asserted that the Post-office was unpopular : he would ask the hon. member how he made out his case ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr. Smith) heard nothing in the country of the unpopula rity of the Post-office. During the present session there had been very few attacks made on it, and what there were had proceeded from the hon. member for Greenock. ( Hear, hear, hear.) There had been, he believed, two petitions from Cheltenham, in which the honourable member for Greenock had taken. great interest, but it so happened that they were laughed to scorn, and turned out of the house. What could make the hon. gentleman so anxious for the appointment of this commission he could not con , ceive, unless, as he bore the name of him who was at the head of the old commission, he wished himself to be put at the head of the new one. 'But the hon. gentleman took such a continued interest in the ques tion, that he might be considered a sort of standing commissioner in his own person. Could the hon. gentleman seriously wish to renew the old commission which had sat for eleven years, and cost the country 90,0001. ( Hear, hear)—and merely to conduct our pro posed petty investigations, there having been as yet no great principle laid down ? Allusion had been made to the opening of parcels by the Post -office. The fact was, that parcels were never opened except on positive information that letters were in those parcels. If the Post-office was to protect itself, it was necessary for it to have this power. But it was said the prin ciple of competition ought to be acted on, and that the public ought to be allowed to avail itself of that I conveyance which was cheapest. This, however, brought them back to the question of revenue, which was one the hon. gentleman' must settle with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and., the house. The hon. gentleman had also availed himself of the aris tocratic ground of objection ; he had asserted that the two-penny post was principally_ collected from the poor ; but could it be said that the inhabitants of Hammersmith were poorer than those of Grosvenor place ? It was proposed by the hon. gentleman to extend the principle of distance at present confined to a circuit of twelve miles round London, to every capital town. The effect of such a change as this would be a material increase of the postage in country towns. The charge for delivering letters in them was at present only Id. Then the hon. gentleman com plained of the difficulty of making complaints to a duke, but if there was ground of complaint, why could it not be as easily stated to a duke as to a board? The fact was, that the hon. gentleman had not been sparing of his complaints : he had railed against the late noble Postmaster-General almost the whole of the time that he was in office. ( Hear, and a laugh.) The hon. gentleman had complained that some returns moved for had not been produced • but it was difficult to comply fully with the wishes of hon. gentleman in this respect, he having moved for a return of all the letters " gone or missing." ( A laugh.) Certainly a preference had been given to government packets rather than bye contracts ; and it was difficult, per haps, to say which was most advantageous ; but it would not be considered that the country had not derived very great benefit from the principle which had been acted on, when it was considered that the government, by the employ of steam-boats, might be said to have brought them to their present state of perfection. ( Hear ) With respect to the letter-carriers, who had been described as walking paupers collecting pennies, he begged to inform the house, that these in dividuals were allowed to receive the pennies for work ing the extra hour, in order that it might act as a greater inducement to them to call at houses for let ters than they would have if they received a fixed sum. It was an accommodation to the public for these per sons to be allowed to receive letters after the offices were closed ; and making their remuneration depen dent on the number of letters they obtained was a se curity against the public convenience being neglected. ( Hear, hear.) The hon. member who last addressed the house had alluded to a weekly deficiency amounting to 5 1 7/. ; but there was an error in this statement, the calculations being made without reference to the in completeness of the return. Reverting to the proposal to establish a board, he must say that he preferred in dividttal to divided responsibility. But the hon. mem ber for Greenock inquired why not apply-the principle of individual responsibility in other cases: for instance, why not, in place of the Treasury and other boards, make the Chancellor of the Exchequer responsible ? He (Mr. Smith) might not object to this if the Chan cellor of the Exchequer could get through the mass of business that would devolve on him under such an ar rangement. But there was this difference ; the Trea sury Board, besides being a board of control, was a board of appeal ; and this power of appeal was princi pally available when property was concerned. As a challenge had been given to point out the improvements which had taken place in the Post-office department, and the . advantages possessed by Individual control over that vested in a board, he would point out the consolidation which had taken place between the English, Irish, and Scotch Post-offices, and the good results which had ensued. The ad vantages derived from this measure could not be denied; and he would not hesitate to call upon the Irish representatives then in the house to bear testimony to their extent. The proposed ar rangement with regard to newspapers was another measure of improvement, which, when carried into effect, would be found greatly beneficial. He would not now enter into details, but he would assert, that there was nothing proposed to be effected by the com mission moved for the hon. member for Greenock, which the house itself was not competent to effect. Already some progress had been made in improving this department, and still more important measures were in contemplation, some of which had been sug gested by the commissioners of revenue inquiry. Amongst these was one of particular importance, namely the free transmission of newspapers to foreign parts, and the receipt at home of foreign newspapers free of duty. ( Hear.) Improvements in the two penny-post transmission were also in contemplation. In addition to these alterations, perquisites would also be abolished. To a question from some hon. member, as to whether Ireland was also to be included ? Mr. V. SMITH replied he belieied it was. The attendance of the noble duke who had been at the head of the Post-office department had been observed upon, but he (Mr. Smith) challenged proof of any person who had filled the office having been more at tentive to its duties. He would put it to the house whether the hon. member for Greenock had made out in so tedious and expensive an inquiry as his t proposi tion involved. What, he would take leave . o and expensive in quiry? Why, its only The calling of officers to give already in progress. evidence would not only prevent the development of e c r o io m d m a i l s l s u i d o e n d ha to d d b id ee n n o p t put meats but also delay the daily busi nessthe proposed improve oppose the improvemenetsfiewe'htiewho he had shown p were of the departments in which they were engaged. With respect to the papers of which the ,hon. mem ber had spoken, they could not byany possibility have were made .out. The reason of this, perhaps, was, nor were they so efficient as end to by a Treasury minute before those papers commissions g th iv e e s n a m becausee t quickness,t the the p been t i l v i i a th t those of later appointment. A better plan than the commission now sought for would be to propose a committee on the Postage Acts. It had been con tended that the proposition for reciprocal freedom of foreign and English newspapers had originated with France. Surely this was a paltry object of contention; but if it were to be considered a matter of importance, he was prepared to show that it originated with tiv,s. noble duke (Richmond), or at least that it was he who brought the plan into execution. They were now about to enter into such reciprocity with France, and it was to be hoped that two great countries, separated only by a narrow neck of sea, and which had hitherto been looked upon as natural enemies, would hence forward have no rivalry injurious to either, but rather enter into an emulation beneficial to both, tending to develope their resources, and enable them freely, and with equal advantage, to interchange the surplus pro ductions of their labour. Nor,was it only with-France that interchange was to take place. It should also extend to our colonial territories, for it would be hard to grant to France that which we denied to our owl. colonies. The duties should be taken off' from all newspapers passing to or from the colonies and the mother-country. The advantages arising from this arrangement would be of great benefit to the former, as instead of their own narrow journals, whose matter was in a great degree restricted to local scandal, they would have the advantage of more e nl a rg e d an d a bl e prints. He hoped the horse would agree with him in the view he•had taken, and he would therefore move that they should proceed with the order of the day for going into committee on the . Postage Acts. The SPEAKER here suggested, that as this was a notice night, the motions should have precedence. If the order of the day were entered upon, any other motion which may be brought forward should be moved as an amendment. Mr. HUME supported the motion of the hon. mem ber for Greenock, and was of opinion that a commis sion of inquiry would be of great service. In the days in which the former commission was granted, it certainly was difficult enough to procure inquiry, and yet, notwithstanding the difficulty and the delay with which in those days such inquiries were burdened, the committee then appointed produced evidence enough to show that the department which they were appointed to investigate was in a most miserable cons dition. Were the few improvements which had been so ostentatiously pointed out sufficient to satisfy the house? The honourable gentleman had sneered at commissions. Was not this rather odd in a member of a government which abounded in commissions ? If the Ministry would grant a committee in the next session on this question, he would advise his honour able fri4nd who had brought forward the moti on no t to ' press it • but otherwise he would advise him to pro ceed with it. Much stress had been laid on the reci procal f ree d om o f newspapers , an d i t was argue d as a greati Still h ben would; but n den y looki ng at e it very as P pence m atter, i t was not of such very great importance. sot und shi l ling considerable advan tages v a n d a n tages which, in another point of view, were likely to accrue from it ' • and he mu s t a d m it that it was a mea sure calculated to put an end to the hostilities which had so frequently existed between this country and France. But he would show, from the handwritingof the noble duke to whom this measure had been attri buted, that he himself did not set a - higher value on it as regarded revenue than 3,5001., and that so far from viewing it as an object of public advantage, he considered it as oflittle import. Bete the honourable member read a letter signed Richmond, written to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and dated July 16, 1833, stating that the free transmission of English newspapers and the circulation here of foreign ones, formed the only emoluments of the officers of the foreign post-office. It stated the amount to be about 3,5001., and added that if those emoluments were done away, and the salariei charged upon the revenue, it would be merely to ac commodate a few foreigners here, and some English abroad, with articles of luxury. Surely, continued the hon. member, after expressing such opinions as these, no credit on this head can be claimed for a nobleman who only acquiesced in a measure when he could no longer resist it. These boasted improvements were put forward to blind the house to the real state of the question—that they may ask, " Will you meddle with a system so complete, or in such a state of being completed?" There was not, he contended, in Europe a system SO defective as ours. How different from that of France, where every year was issued a publication giving every necessary information on the subject. Our system *as confused through excess of legislation. There were no less than 107 acts of Parliament applying to the subject, and if they intended to effect any good pur pose, and do away with the confusion which at present existed, they should consolidate the laws upon this subject. The whole question might be comprised within the single and simple point, was the present Post-office system calculated to work the greatest good at the smallest expense ? No one could say that it was (Hear) ; the present system was conducted at e loss of 70,0001. a-year to the country. Another point he would state was, and he would put it interrogatively , . did the Post-office afford the greatest facilities_ or communication ? Was the system of transmission of letters and papers the safest, the most expedi tious, and the best ? He would say, no ; and the country would respond to him. ( Hear.) It was a grievous delusion to fancy, that because a particular and isolated portion of the system could be defended, the whole body of the Post-office arrangements were, therefore, unassailable. It was like the ostrich, that while it thrusts its head into a hole in the sands, foolishly fancied its body was secure. So, because a particular department of the Post-office was fnobnoxious to attack, the entire system was on that account to be held exempt from reprehension. No doubt, well meaning individuals, maintained that, forsooth, because the mail did not leave London on Sunday, no irregu larities were committed. But those " good easy men' must not have thought that all the mails in the country travelled on Sunday. The people of Barnet may re ceive and send off their letters on Sunday, a privilege the people of London could not enjoy. Was that right? ( Hear, hear.) The people of London surely were entitled to the same privileges as the people Of Barnet, or of any other place. The inequalities between the condition of the people of London and those of almost any other place, would alone deserve the serious interposition of Parliament. Why should not the people of London be allowed to send out and receive their letters two or three times on a Sunday ? (Hear, hear.) In the present advanced state of society there should be no difference between the rate of postage here and on the Continent ; or here between one place and another. He (Mr. Hume) would advance another suggestion that the 2,000, 0 0 now received by the Post-office should be paid into the Exchequer, for in that case the people woe have a more direct control over the fund, and that the payments about to be made should come from that quarter. It would be much better that there should be appointed officers by the Treasury to oak° payments to the Post-office functionaries, than that the present blending plan should be continued was maintained, in opposition to the proposition 0 those who would remove the existing abuses a the • Post-office, that the propounded system of ameliora tion would be attended with 200,0001. additional ex pense • but when the great facilities of convey ance and the improved state of the roads were taken into consideration, that o bje c tion would vanish. The f a c t was, they should take the whole charge of the roads of the country, and introduce a scale of payment on the roads. There should be three posts leaving Lon don on every Sunday, and at twelve o'clock on Sun day there should be a post leaving town, as there w:a every other day. The foreign conveyance to America and the Indies was left perfectly free on Sunday . as on every other day. Why then should the transmis sion of letters from London to various parts of Enr land be suspended on that day ? The Clyde steam boats offered to carry letters whenever they sailed, and they were not allowe d by t he Post office • that . was a gross and wanton act o f infringement on the public interest. ( Hea r. ) He would contrast the eon duct of the French and the Englis h ~overnment, an d by the contrast shovi how illiberal and unwise was the British government. In France they paid according to the distance, not so ,here. In France one should not pay the postage of seventy-miles, though the let ter travelled only forty-seven miles. What he m ainly contended for was, that there should be allowed 'a free transmission of letters and papers on both sides. [The concluding words of the hon. member were lost to us amid the general noise of the house ] • Lord ALTHORP said the • question was, w hether it was desirable to address his Majesty, praying him to issue a commission ? He should, however, at the out set say, that the hon. member who spoke did not con vey any clear idea of what should be done. It was at one time considered whether the question was not one purely of revenue; at another, whether the r e v en ue should at all be considered ; for himself he, tv I ?' bliC u shoutd that the convenience and interest of the p eti t r l ne that he be the chief consideration, at al. c sh ould not be thought the question of re%;iet sue rega rd to the transmis sion of old newspapers, to disre garded. ( Hear, hear.) 3% w hich the hon. gentleman ' (Mr. Hume) a dverted, _ he begged to say that it was not deemed expedient to in clude old newspapers in the arrangement a bout to take plac e. The hon. gentlem an propriety of consolidating the post officehad spoken of the establishment, an d . complained of the delay le bringing forward the bill for the consolidation of the Stamp Office. With regard to that bill, he wou ld and sure the hon. gentleman that it was in progress, that the delay in not bringing it sooner forward 05 ' occasioned only by the great pressure of Govert k nne nt n business. With respect to the delivery of letter had Sundays, to which the hon. member for GreeiTL, did alluded, he (Lord Althorp) could only say h a i rrange _ not himself see any great objection to such reeled feel ment ; but he must say, that in the P_ dient for the ins of the country, it wou ld not b e "Pseition of that Government to brin foard a Pr°P were delivered description. ( Hear, h ear.) If letters Is d in the deli on Sundays, the only persons e mploye ers on very would be the' letter-carriers, and those t y de _ in the Post-office who were connected with _h_a t mi d, tartment. The hon. gentleman the inembeZ t r_ of fi ce dlesex Ind stated that the revenues of the este had not increased , althou g h the expences (?!",`, 5 why blishment had. The hon. gentleman said. w here .• not send foreig n letters to the colonies a o d e se t t vessels instead of Governmen Packets by merchan t __.~~``