The Sun. — London, England, 1842-02-16 00:00:00

3ir own industry might led to get it; they know world are at their cow ; would permit them to , ar, hear.) Instead of I of food, they are to be Government interposei ey do want food, they fleas certain enornmai The Hon. Bart. thee, ill entered into a detail of 'eel, and showed clearly' e high and prohibitor ce, y; r low tone of voi arcely audible in the plans respectively pr John Russell.) Tb° o' id said that his syster th some uncertainti vhen the price .Irc ea r t u re occurred once e r he (Sir William Chil b e ) 4 . 0b1e Lord, tho u g h that, which indicted Compared with dist Right Hon. gember, nor the Righ t 110 f the Board of Trade: m which they lie, er of them made 011 J • imposing such a dat...,l' ,griculture, whilst toe/ a statement of he- comparative c_A iad, but they abstaiacti le subject. Theyll% I, which was no doir, le no use of that itifal; 'ter having heard "a mrable Baronet and leman, he confess‘,- of the. prierr(iiii',l,6, otective system• t y st way what Were ,ty ned one scale of ring approaching t11',." ion. Baronet wa st `;; :der the existing a ' j id he had accoruodstee adeavouring to seen a most extraordiusti -(Hear, hear.) fr o k e l ley stated the 5tt",,,, - ; in those laws, and t'' . ";, Int to which they P l ' the Right Hon. Bartii measure, that he noe!o' the Corn-laws, s:lble he told them tit f to maintain ye t 't Lined under the forieie. fact he could not,o9hr; st care and anxietit,',9 r its introductio n d interest front 51;he the absurdity el ;i1 upon them. It ° le , he food of the peoP' he Right Hon,Baretit it slightest hope d 'i ' ce niblic. He ahsts,,vo that it would re' s t y, or give emplorteo, ar.) Was that, tintu t" months' prepa th e he. Corn-laws „o, admitting the and the unexate_arre -was that the fit ught proper ton e tore eeply did he cd. the Right Hob. 1. 1 7„,1 ar ty ma n be si)" ecause he was c be the fate o f tidministration. The doubt pass his 1301,, the power of anY, ° system of the 1-0.• h ear , a nd 00 0 , power, but it 4o g , The people et 000 ad like all • qacsphef with good wi ll, t iife own pleasure. y) brought or fora'hot ,rn:.laws, and ong his ow n co n ey id given up the Iv. ie hands of the o or s agitated the o_o But what,was the snit at last year the Pt he remedy that v, ,ed it with hano, be content wit h it !ID s fie content now Is would always:,, they were re it; ,e; I e he repeal of the Ivor' He had riCIt tb I five yea rs ag2o 6t ; I effect all the P s ,ioe , At the same L,,,„t 1 of the Ps4ocle, of a free 0 , 0 0/' Teets of ibllereacei remove the our t l j e oMasse s bf 1 1 11 which 11 1 C ' 0 W ° was washd tt , if the Bill ~ a 1 1 1 Le • question:, OP Nagth be comP e Hear.) A ga inst s Id not contend, $O, ther with, the also be swept aes)),,, uld not feel thst e to sent him to r3ort )t trespass fora trot He s uppes bie e , House on the sn J o , option o f any ryes' INN'S was a rOoria ;ses. On theb,reit ,nufacturing in he otal repeal (.jet' acre was a 00111' iord who °pen t ; Jot"' your of a tiset; ority compare` 1,,111 1 ; while he thovioi f contra,dictioa,l4. I certainly the, t v r o or r a ti ve , were 11110, ,t 0.,) Cale.---(lrefir, Jl' l . fi t d not endeavol° Doi the Noble Ler" 0 03 of a fixed duty , po , Honourable „id+ I the Nobl e l's, Government. Ale G , icularly to tli l* it s Government^ ivol uments whiebsiler ten opposite, t ' af er , any duty iv a i , Ol d e were unwertlli if; 3use. Far fr o I, tr too many ,alethiJ ttainments lII' atest respec t, aen—(l-lettr, I'' had express'' , j i,t ding scale 0'41,0 or heard s„ht nion, he thear„jil r 4 to House, e!,: t ere, 6i i i 'sent their ottfr to the consieeroaet. tight flop. 1 3 ,' 1 „ pre , that since it''de: by the 11141'10a jl [auditor)) ' the farme rs ' ,l pt' the Cortrant. th e Govel l „ il t ;ti' l f the ecpresel'oper 1, howev er Ohl io [ought it W. 40 0 wought I° l a o pt s „ l . rests,. he pj‘); e ,•el House t as that ",')011, f tbilt 10, ety o j ad to tPC ,I to had gi bg 7: '.nie. it it is Oleo:01-1S old be pr! ) , l , posed sca' 5:4 iv' ,nly to 50 1 , 0 Id be 2Ongoti.,ol a duty' °; sp' r ' it : , ill 1 !;,. 0 0) 11 ,jo ain llntatth re It i o n is th e o b , measu re a at I had hc' e- it Wad en of wh cil e ffee t that th e se redo ° Add si mt. lof oot sog 0 1 s cale -raduativilik, los lid t O vrotee lave 1 111 1 1 1 0 . tb e otictirre_or, pro' h a ve w eons uinf' o the th ose ' cv ot Y tha t boala duo' s he del l ink th at tfote'ee be r .^ n lightffor ro e a 3 I inferio proSellt4tro,,s BarOne,' bo o 0 here "" to the endinen cale That 5 D 4 no. A Agar e el r e in ot [fich e th e sc iyieni the U°ll' hick • h2 55 ' 1/ e 4,41 bk. ° t ile of that the fa o f tig 5 aPPl:°f th° rotectiori if be wonet• be half Ara ' a; sialenw- of the Hon. Member and his vote on the . general ques- , tion to the Right Hon. Baronet. He might take that course, but it was not the course he intended to follow. He did not wish to take any indirect Means of arriving at the complete end he wished eventually to arrive at. He preferred at once taking that which he thought pre -fteearrfauthiclealar paag,rrt.cat question as a whole, not looking at any After the meeting of Parliament, and • 11 13 , Member not in the councils of her --iii' it h i i er : s d t !n i ' t e y l ie l' ar what was about to be proposed, he made tical c onsult-several gentlemen,.who are prac the 'antlers, as to the scale of duty which British t ha agift would be a sufficient protection to the scale,,. f.amer. He had an opportunity of seeing the believed much was drawn up by Mr. Drews, and which he That had been forwarded to the Right Hon. Baronet. Irauat scale, he found, differed very little from the scale , Nsed hy the Right Hon. Baronet.--(Hear, hear.) fiF.."... commenced With ' 525., but the gentleman who xes that scale contended likewise that a certain Fromamount of duty ought to be maintained. rrorn th e se st atement he had a l rea d y ma d e, i t wou ld b e 8 lei°an that the re was but little difference between the scale • 13 nto him and the scale of the Right Hon. Baronet: in t ' his (the Gallant Captain's) opinion. some ° light t thou obe taken between 555. and 60s. However, he gla that the agriculture of thecountry was called upon point °;ton make some such sacrifice to the trade and commerce .oflie country as that proposed.—(Laughter, aud hear.) 41 n• Gentlemen might laugh, but was- 20 per cent. no satrifice ? The agriculturists were eminent for their loyalty, and he was sure the appeal now read,to them would not be made in vain. Therefore, although he thought that the scheme of the .r laon. Member for Lincolnshire was, erha, to the • , agricultural interest than that which had been pro. , should not more fair ;;Ppo... 'mil by the Right Hon. Baronet, yet he rting se the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet by suppo il h anielidm ent, because he felt satisfied that by taking sue-- hers, he should be inflicting an injury T O t il ivh . those ished to serve.—(Hear, hear.) The „„‘..-, Honourable Baronet possessed information ih":fle subject, which it could not be supposed was in !illnPitossession of any individual Member; and h . e (Cap - Hamilton ) felt that, placed in the situation in which '"ea;l'light lion. Baronet was, he could not avoid con eeTfiguse'lne such measure to the manufacturing into- I."- Ile (Captain Hamilton) did - not deny the exist !once (if distress in the manufacturing districts, but he ,!111)hafically denied that such. distress was owing to denied ,t, raeentas,ll). "le Corn-laws. Of course while distress existed, tall increase in pause tia,e.hvnenld.a:ditrnthoshitne in that distress,- but he again the price of provisions would hatically that the Corn-laws had by lt a h v ad arie b t e y en of c o T h s e e r d e b a y as o e v s e , itrading, allusion h had been e d e o n f tlle inside T to which question. With these re h a y siu t r h ye in ßi b g r h i t ng lii n o g n. fi G uni en a t r l d em th a i n e own particular duty, th f e lot wohno i lye views on the question he felt it his affected h* as a Member of Parliament. legislating "tint rY, but as the representative of his , wilts constituency, whose interests were vitally the Hight question to support the proposition of ght on B , Aft cluL • aronet.—(Cheers.) Who had last congratulated. congratulated. the Hon. Gentleman itients. ast s Nken on such lacable consti 7 t he Gov (A lau g h. ) The Hon. Gentleman admitted that 1.:..,, eminent proposition was one which would mate the m nY affect their interests that it was one to which _ ll );.were , : ea ~..1d not °PPosed—that it was one of which he himself aPProve, and yet he said he would vote for i'_. (Cheers and laughter.) He (Mr. Childers) had Olned with great gratification to much of the speeches p r t e l of the 1 - 1 light Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the d ea lsa rY, and of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Prest t of the cularl Of Board of Trade. . There was one part parti. L ev , Y the of of the Right Hon. Baronet the First ~,e 1, ,,"_ of the Treasury, which would go to destroy . thr"al the which had previously existed t eltighout the country. •He alluded more particularly s ° vhat th e Right Hon. Gentleman had said as to the toyed of averages • before that speech had been ut os_,nads,erlle had hardly ever met with any Member_ of the of t ~.vative party who had not said that the system be + ,. 4l ;ing the averages must be altered, that they must , Ito "I„:,ten from. the sellers, and not from the buyers. lives\ 'IL Childers) had since met with many Conserva th ' and they all agreed with the Right lion. Baronet nnri Elt s t buyers, and not the sellers, ought to be the per- . • t . make the averages.—(A laugh.) But to come_ , t ttee the Inmiediate question before them, viz, the advan Childers di sadvantage of the new scale. He (Mr. eeta,,) could see very little advantage, as the v , a , r ed with the old one. He thought that tr th '''„, a k st Principle of continuing the averages up lie ti. 41 glier prices of 705., 715., 725., and 735., would, nii e ared, practically cause very little diminution of the Ile t ) ,s_ at which corn would come into this country. made looked carefully over the returns lately W hie e h h ° _, the • House of the quantity of corn ' he 01 "all been entered during the last 20 years, and ' only °light that almost constantly it, had been entered - 'it jc n w d n i en corn had reached a great price,.or at least cer n ': ' s een entered at the higher price of duty when c_oa s ,: as lower, so as to be of little advantage . to the n th e , - tr. Re would try to explain his meatmang duty how 1 slluieet. A certain quantity of corn ti . ,. ted but ° ll B. 8(1 ‘' 69 , Bd., ,and 2s. Bd. had been admitted, ,'sin - ad it been amitted.? Not' when the ld pri h c a e v s;l b v e e e r n e 4. Nti g ef and the duty was falling, w h h e ic n h t •a h • - . e ou f allin g , to the country, but when scq ' n ) ,l a nd the duty w as rising ; _ prices were -, -11e"Y when " it shown that there was . otinilgt, 1 corn con- i . • auppi v ~,, IA I the country, and thatbt whenthe additional of - IV co . n "cold he of little advantage ; u cvad b il ,,,, W el'e falling,_and the duty rising very little, corn ''Llos geltntroduced. Look first, for examp e, - Lat .„. N . n '' , , rom 1829 up to the present year ; the quantit 1,. 1. ins e Z e ed when the prices were rising and the duty falling ,_ . 7r 5e1 1 7,, guar ters,whilst there was imported during ,txis e .,, ' Period, when prices were falling and the duty. i . -eh ei . I ;, 11 0 less th an 789, 000 quarters. —(H ear , hear.) the s a f • they took the 6s. Bd. duty they would find the ( „, e le thing ; f rom th e year 1839 up to the present year we r :'antity of corn that had been admitted when prices ooo %Illar te ri , s ing, and the duty falling, was only Me e -'; whilst during the same 14,3114 re falling and the duty rising, no I p e e s r s iod, quantity e d i* l ar ) tra n s 1 . ,; 892 f° 0 0 quarters had been admitted .—( Hear.) .. e. .• t 3 1 0 ;hen • 41 %. —ast occur in the scheme proposed by the Boa vaar Qentleman. Suppose a man had twenty thousand . e very ter s of wheat at 60s. a quarter, he knew that tc,r , a n ti le shil ling that it increased in price he would. hist an - e eo tire or , 3teurrea„ ,it was o w f el t l h a a c t now q n Ua t n h t a it t y the g p ai r n essu l r ,o e o g o e L nen!, F ll 3 "hheatli:;;elntsthis country in the summer seasons, before th e came in—the farmer knew the .price, and h° at ditty I,osm over that ov would be, and whether he could afford to corn until summer ; therefore, the pro ' aid ,4elleme - inducement to apeculate—be- Iv es ae(m Sea s a direct ti °111(1 ru, r'ellilders) feared that the present state of duty -ae °, --rat. • • just as much as 4 . old - against the consumer . a t c , 2 a te best calculations, that :1()04 : 4' 11 P r Z i t l i at i q n • Generally speaki u n n g ies i s t t w he o y ul e d am be e ; t ea l) r ise(l . ' 'ih -ti , , or . even one shilling, p v o e r ry tat in io l n ie N h vas ea n e o i t i th e s --- sein etii ; Prices of corn varied sua n ,„ ill e Year es theyauent.up and . again theyto the con the ' and 44 ' • c onsequently creating injury fellduring In .P‘"atcst ; th e Producer alternately. That was . one of ) - le Pap e I jaries of the sliding sta nces ...,. r ? , ~ ul be '''re the House there .were constantiri- . ' vent 't o a it s h _, scale.—(Hear, hear. th e he . few of vi ii; occurred, bu e t ar h l e B3 l 4 7 th ld e oillje•ea,din fro gliil ling theni. In the y .1-a gU -' t° b ps , .' n began to rise, and th st ,„, :, 1 1 ,00 6 : e l a the year was very l ow ; in it ranged illAduty-Tow S ep . ten l i i ber sw it Then so high that . - aPidly . aearters of wheat, and then_ the price sank to I s. T there c . ame in of b ee -taut in November it again rose, and on the 7th aglii n i ela ber the price reached 755., and the duty was ; the duty'' S ° again th e same thing occurred in 1840 t, it iva sank in the same way. Now he knew that liav, reached extraordinary instance that it should_ such a duty o r i s . i n September, and caused a $i of fluctuations and in . ury to the country. Such t .,.,„,!' lu te _of things could not j have occurred under any . 1 ,,, • J , o b ., but a 18,1 1 .;` , t make ansit:Tliunsgio-nseatioe. a N e V as h e ilewhonichplacesubject he in * i'tl: J r ' the month of August in that year, on the ti t li o s ok i n 0 ,,f that month, the price rose to 765. a quarter. t ' 1., September following 1,000,000 of quarters , honvirat were brought into the country and the prices th e d Ne agifin until on the 24th of September, when \ 4e , ti tY had fallen to Is. ; but Ni'hat was the price ? it S 4 . t i l 'ill Y 638 . ; the, preceding week it was 615., Nutti lat when Com. was most wanted, noneuhi bitl: )1 . mine- in in "°llsequence of ther had i 5.... 4114 !hay, whereas, shortly afterwards the duty •iNow -° Is, Two millions of quarters then . came e 3 Lri e . less ;40 thought there had been on that. oceasion ear 1 ' that t here ° , 411 parties. In the first place, it , N have been . ' the "as " '44 a loss to the consumer who had not received , ten% . .; ° ' ll at the low price. at which it might , said In, the much in- JON,i -ve d• There was also. another party tl eni namely, the speculator.. The Righ e t ry lion. Gen- Vice-President of the Board of Trade, had had la st night that the speculators at that time tood quite rea ped immense profits. , Now he unders r ,„,_, the contrary, and that they had been ;tll,vi,e7ctly ruined. Ile had been informed:the other day htst,,aliefield that a quantity of that corn, introduced . th in Leber, remained there unsold and unsaleable, at any o et Pict! the price that )been been paid for it, because in 13 E ,, (1 "er, when it had been brought in, the duty had 1 1 lap i • instail f ar raised. .He thought that was a pregnant tit , ,ce of the ill -working of the sliding scale, and of the , t T e riority of a fixed duty.—(Hear.) But when he L st ated that he was favourable to a fixed duty, he did not .nitate to say that in his mind that fixed duty should be t Y a step to a total repeal of the Corn-laws.—(Hear, .'. 1 . ar ' from both sides of the House.) He viewed such a r4exult as desirable for the country upon many accounts ; . 8 hi 5.137 motive for not recommending the adoption of a ti 2 i ce 'l duty at present was, that he feared the panic was such bal'nlatlY might not be prepared for a sudden alteration. "' r e believed that in an average of years, after a repeal °f the Born-laws, prices would vary very little, if at all, f r om what they under the present system.—(llear.) the• were h e was much strengthened in that opinion by ' t information afforded by the report of Mr. Mee k' He confessed he felt considerably surprised . : II • at in the speeches from the other side of the House, lie . tid heard no mention made of the Report which afforded an k h ~. 41nu a perfect account of the state of trade in foreign Itr ies. He believed that Mr. Jacob had formerly • ~,r _ .l l seen sent on a similar errand, and his exertions had bs..etvvith a similar return. Hon. Gentlemen who sup ' v " r ed the agricultural interest in the _House observed at th e t. • itne, that " the words were the words of Jacob, tut th .%,,,_ e hands were the hands of Esau."—(Laughter.) t ,,,: . 0 he imagined was obably the feeling entertained „lard Mr Meek ; andhis 'appeared to be con ' • . . evidence .. g enti very injurious to the cause of Honourable Meeks opposite. He found, from the return of Mr. ~,o pn that in Rotterdam, where free trade • Th at d, the average . price of wheat was about 555., . l l ' s ': , yes the statement of Mr. Meek. And, in Th e n to?l, the average price at Ostend was about 50s. tinit _" Prices were so near the English prices as to be a.._, c_astonishing. In rich countries, like Holland tCt._ England, where the population was so great, ' r e tattst be a large tiVl4l4 fur corn, The Right Honourable Gentleman (the Vice-President of the Board of Trade) bad said that because two millions of quarters were 'imported from abroad, the English production would be reduced two millions. He did not believe such would be the case.—(Hear, hear.) Was nothing to be allowed * for increased consump tion ? alear,hear.) He believed the surest means of increas ing the wealth of a country wenid be to increase its lin ports.—(Hear.) Another pointssf view, audit would ap pear to many a novel one, which he took of the pre sent Corn-law was, that the priaciple of monopoly which they had seen to be so injurious in all other cases would also operate injuriously against the farmers of the country'.—(Hear, hear.) He believed if the Corn-laws were i epealed the farmers would, be more anxious than they were to improve the productive capabilities of their farms. He remembered with respect to the silk' trade, that while it was protected by monopoly, old and almost useless machinery was employed, but when the pro tection was lowered, machinery of a better descriptio n w as introduced. He considered the same result would be the consequence in their farming system if the Corn-laws were repealed, and he WftB - the more strengthened in this opinion, because in Scotland, where the best system% of farming prevailed, the agriculturists were not unfavourable to an alteration of the Corn-laws.(Hear, hear, hear.) The causes of the superiority of the SCotch farms, were their great extent, and the system of leases. Under the system which prevailed in this country, a farmer would not however good might be his landlord, lay out his money in the same manner .as he would if he had the farm upon lease. A Scotch friend had told him of an instance in which a farmer who had the remainder of the lease of a farm of which the rent was 700/. a year. He had laid out 7,000/. in improve ments, and there were more improvements required, which would cost about 3,000/. On the landlord consent ing to extend the lease for five years, the farmer made that additional outlay. He believed if agriculture were unprotected, both landlord and farmer would endeavour to effect such improvements, and that the result would be most beneficial to the country. He did not advocate the repeal of the Corn-laws on the ground which was relied upon by the delegates of the Anti- Corn-law Conference,'or ,because he believed that it would, to any great extent, reduce the price of corn ; but he advocated the repeal of those laws, because he believed they formed a great obstacle to free trade all over the world. He opposed those laws on the principles of the soundest political economy, and because he was for removing all restrictions on the freedom of trade. The Right Hon. Baronet had indeed a sufficient majority to carry his measure ; but how long would that majority last ? He ' predicted that 'it would last only till the next dissolution. He trusted, and believed, that shortly the time would ar rive when England, instead of trusting to her Navigation laws and Corn-laws, and to systems of protection and restriction, would trust to her insular situation, her commerce, her water-mills, her steam-mills, her mind, and her freedom.—(Cheers.) Captain RODS, who was at first indistinct and in audible, was understood to say, that as this was a popu larity question, he had made up his mind from the mo ment he set foot in the House that he would speak out upon it.—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) There were three measures to choose between. There was the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, that of the Noble Lord, and of the lion. Member for Wolverhampton, which was in petto.—(A laugh.) Now if Honourable Gentlemen opposite supported the former proposition of the Noble Lord, which implied that agriculture ought to have some protection, they would not keep their words—the) , would not be the high-minded gentle men he had always thought thern.—(Hear, hear.) They would be good for neither God nor Devil—(Hear, and laughter)—if they voted for the motion of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton.—(Tory cheers.) There was a Noble Lord in the other House of Parliament who never made btit one mistake in his life, and that was when he accepted office.—(A laugh.) That Noble Lord said that whoever proposed an alteration of the sliding scale would be only fit for Bedlam. Now in that, he was happy to agree with the Noble Lord.—(Cheers and a laugh.) For his part, he had made up his mind that whenever God gave us a fixed succession of good harvests, he would consent to a fixed duty. But as long as our harvests were variable, it would be necessary to have a variable duty.—(Cheers.) The gentlemen who sent him to Parliament were satis- fled with the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Ba ronet, because they thought that it was framed on the principle of live and let live, and on a due consideration of the interests of the farmers, manufacturers, and working classes. A French diplomatist said words were given to man to conceal his thoughts, and this would appear to be true if we referred to the speeches of the Anti-Corn law party, who talk with such anxiety of saving 2d. upon every quartern loaf for the working man ; but to whom would this twopence go ? Would it be into the pockets of the master or of the workman ? (Hear, hear.) Now he would refer to the wages in other countries where food was cheap. He did not mean the United States, or our new colonies, which were new countries, and where the value of labour was ex ceedingly high ; but take India, where there were 60,000 of our fellow-subjects, and the wages of labour were 2d. a day. In the Valle de Plass the labourer had lOs. a month, out of which he had to feed, clothe, and lodge himself. Look to France, where so many English fami lies lived—not for cheap bread, but for cheap wages, cheap education, and cheap horses ; and it was through the Continent, as in France. In 1795, mechanics earned 3s. a-day, and their labourers Is. Bd. ; the price of corn then was 725. I ld. ; in 1812, when corn was 1225., the wages were the same as they are at ipresent. Bricklayers, carpenters, joiners, stonemasons, 'Ambers, painters, glaziers, &c., earned ss. for a day of ten hours; coachmakers made from 345. to 60s. a week; bootmakers from 365. to 605.; tailors from 365. to 425., wiven they have plenty of work,Did the House imagine that these men, who earned from 30s. to 60s. a-week, cared whether they paid a penny more or a penny less for the quartern loaf, so long as they had plenty of work ?—(Hear.) Take one of the stonemasons—they had their 21b. Of rump steak, two pots of porter, and a quartern of gin to keep them warm, in a day; but if the plan which lion. Gentlemen opposite proposed were to come into operation, they would have no beef, no beer, and no gin, but bread and onions and a good suck at the pump.—(llear, hear, and laughter.) The London tradesmen, now that rents are 30 per cent. higher than they were thirty or forty . years ago, that they pay higher wages, and that articles which they sell still remain at pretty nearly the !same price, were in a ,worse situation, he thought, than any other class ; but if they destroyed the agriculturists they would destroy the trades men at the same—time, because the agriculturists were their best customers.—(Hear, hear.) He would go higher; he would go to the merchant. He (Capt.Rous) was a captain and shipowner ; if he went to Hamburgh he could build a.ship for 2,000/., which at Hull or Liver pool would cost him 3,500/., because at Hamburgh a shipwright's wages were only Is. Bd. , a day, whilst a shipwright's wages in England were ss. The Hamburgh man lived upon a crust of bread—his friends in England liked to have beefsteaks. Then after the ship was rigged at Hamburgh, he could get Prussians, Swedes, and Norwegians, all good seamen, for 15s. a month and rations, which would not cost more than 3d. per diem per man ; but if he came to England his good fellows would want a pound of pork or of beef, which would cost him ls. a day, and besides that, they would - bot go to sea under , forty shillings a month ; that made an odds of 70s. to 225. 6d. against the English crew. The House, he was sure, must agree with him then that he must be a very clever Captain if he could pay his way against the Hainburgh Captain. The stone-masons employed at the Houses of Parlia ment every one of theta got five shillings a-day, and if free trade was established, what wo instanceu there be to prevent three hundred Prussians, for , from being brought over in their stead ?-11ear, ' hear.) He . (Captain Rous) was a practical mail, and clearly foresaw the effects of the measures advocated by Hon. Gentlemen oppesite. If free trade was established, first, there would be no specie in the banks—(Hear, hear)—and, next, the artificers and mechanics who are now employed at ss. a day in London, and elsewhere in England, would not get half that amount of wages if free trade was established. lion. Gentlemen on the opposite side were very fond of draw ing comparisons between this country and foreign coun tries ; they had frequently referred to their relations with America, but lie cCapt. IL) would tisk them to look at their American friends. It was true they borrowed money, in England, but how much interest did they pay for it ? —(Hear, and laughter.) Their American friends sent large orders to Liverpool and London, but how much of those orders were paid ? It was not uncommon for them (the Americans) to come over to this co tuitry and order 2,0001. worth of goods from persons first setting up in trade, one half of which was to be paid in hard cash, and :he other half afterwards ; but there was no instance on record when that other half was ever paid.—(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House further, he would merely say to his Right Ho nourable Friend (Sir Robert Peel) that if he would only go in the middle course, and not mind either the murmurs of the high aristocracy, or the complaints of a de luded people, that. Right Hon. Gentleman must re main in the high position he now occupied —(Cheers.) He should not shift out of his course like a man with one leg in the grave and the other out—(Laughter) —but he should adhere to the interests of the country, and care for nothing so long as he took care of her and himself.—(Laughter, and Hear, hear,) Mr. WILLIAMS rose amidst cries of a " New Mem. ber," He said he should certainly comply with the call of the House, but that he had heard the Honourable Gentleman before ; he could not, therefore, consider him • r in, the light in which he . seemed to be viewed by the House. (Hear, hear.) He (M . W.) felt some what different from a very large number of the people of this country, who never expected any good from the present 4overnment. He had expected that the Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government would have taken a statesman-like view of the • present difficulties in which the trade and commerce of this coun try were implicated. He (Mr. W.) had expected that the Right Hon. Baronet having on a former occasion stated in that House that he considered the trade and manufactures of this country to be the foundation of its strength, power, and greatness, he would have intro duced into this measure, which so deeply affected its interests, something that would afford relief'. He (Mr. Williams) thought that the Government were chargeable with great blame in placing in her Majesty's mouth words which had been h tl t raisin g e theeffect o r creatingexpe t ati g o r n e s a t o d f i s t a P l e p oi country,tm e nt meansonly of h hadul • He considered th at t h e proposition now before-the House would be in its p ract i cal effect, by no means different from the present l aw . W hen the present scheme came into operation a large su r pl us of corn would be in the hands of foreirrn merchants, an d a cons iderable quantity would be intro b duced into this country. In fact inducements would be held Out by the broker and factor in this • country to the foreign merchant, who would not under- rice SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENIN(y, stand at first the working of - the new law, to import large quantities of corn to this country. The consequence would be that by the low price super :induced by the great abundance in the market, the fbreign producer would sustain n great loss, and, taught by his experience, in that instance, he would be careful not to repeat the operation. His impression was that the new law and the old one in their present working would be found to be pretty much on a par, He was in hopes from the manner in which the question had been introduced info her Majesty's speech that the Right Hon. Bart. would have been In duced to alter his determination to abide by the sliding scale. He considered that the sliding sc,ile was a system of levying duties on foreign eorn.most injurious to every in terest of the country, except landed proprietors.—(Hear, hear.) lie believed it would be the interest of the people of thi s coun t r y, ra th er th an b e su bjected to the operation of the sliding scale, .to pay a duty of 20s. per quarter to the landed proprietors for every quarter of corn they used.—(Hear, hear.) They would save a vast deal of wealth by it. They would then know the extent of their loss,' but he would venture to say that no human being could Calculate the loss which the country sustained in consequence of the opera tion of the sliding scale. :During the last four years there had beep nearly ten millions of quarter:: of corn purchased for ,this country. Immediately on the demand, the corn-dealers rushed to the nearest market, and purchased corn at any price for which it could be obtained, especially when it was seen that within a certain period the sliding scale would reduce the duty to Is. In August, 1838, he saw a re markable illustration of this. He happened to be at Hamburgh, on his way to the north o f Germany, and the instant he arrived he\was asked by an English gentleman as to the state of the w(fiather and the crops in England, at the time he (Mr. Williams) left. This gentleman was the representative of large London corn dealers, who was sent out to purchase corn in Hamburgh, under the expectation that there would he it failure in the crops in England in 1838. This gentleman then went to the large holders of corn, and offered them the same prices which they had agreed to take five days before—(Hear, hear)—but not a quarter would they sell, without a considerable' advance upon that price. No doubt th:re had been a great evil in the Corn-laws, by eni harming the price of the bread of the working man, but it had caused them much more suffering by depriving him of employ ment, through the derangement of the currency, and the inter ruption of commerce.—( Hear, hear). As the smallest calcu lation in the last fo ir years, 15,000,0001. in bullion had been sent out of the country to pay for corn—(Hear)—and in those years we had paid full fifty or fifty five per cent. more than if we had traded Oral the fixed duty.--( Hear, hear.) With the fixed duty we 0.,u1d be supplied from the western coast of America in years a deficiency, which could never be the case whilst there was the sliding-scale.—( Hear, hear.) There was another subject which the present system affected very mate rially. In getting into the foreign market in a hurry for our corn, it becomes necessary to employ foreign shipping— ( Hear, hear, hear)—for we have no opportunity of em ploying our own; for if a merchant happened to have one of his own ships on the , port to which he goes for corn, and if she is not ready to sail at once, he cannot wait even a day, but must charter the first foreign vessel he finds ready to sail, or otherwise he would surely arrive too late for the low duty,—( Hear.) The slid ing scale appeared to him in every point of view to be most injurious to every interest except the landowners, The Right Hon. Baronet had seated one most astonishing proposition. He had stated that it was a common doctrine with many per sons in bringing accusations against the Corn-laws to say that they lard a tax on corn, which was paid by the consumer to the producer of corn ; but thathe (Sir R. Peel) denied that doctrine. He ( Mr. Williams) understood that Right Hon. Bart. denied that propoSition, and was astonished to hear him say so. He should like to know what object the Right Hon. Bart. could have in desiring to keep the price of corn up to from 545. to 565., unless it were to protect the landed interest. The Hon. Member for Aylesbury had said the object of the Corn-laws was to protect the landed interest by giving them higherprices than they could otherwise obtain, and he would ask what was a duty imposed for the purpose of giving the landed interest higher prices, but a tax paid to them by the consumers, and who were the consumers, the millions of the working classes of this country, and who derived the benefit of it ? The rich land owners ; therefore, the tax was a direct tax, as direct a tax as the house-tax, and it was taken out of the pockets of the consumers, and put into the pockets of the aris tom-laical landowner. The Right Hon. Baronet had with a great deal of pomp and form, introduced a number of statistical details into his speech relative to the comparative consump tion of the necessaries of life in Prussia and in England by the working classes. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that the authority from which he had derived his information was unquestionable, and that it was believed means existed of 'as certaining exactly the statement which he had established. Sir ROBERT PEEL—I said that Dr. Bowring's report stated that there existed means of arriving at accurate statis tical details. Mr. W. WILLIAMS was aware that the Right Honourable Baronet had said so, but the Right Hon. Baronet had further said, as from himself, that it was believed that there existed means of ascertaining exactly the accuracy of those statistical details. He took the words down at the time ; hut he would only take these words which the Right Hon. Baronet ad mitted. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated upon the au thority of those statistics, that in Prussia they consumed of meat 351bs. a year each person, and that in this country each person consumed 501bs. Another Gentleman, however had estimated the consumption at 100 lbs. Now, taking the meat at 7d. a lb., it would make a difference of consumption to the amount of 12,000,000 lbs. Some gentleman had stated that the con sumption of wheat by each individual, was one quarter annu ally, while others stated it at two quarters. Supposing this to apply to the consumption in England and Wales, and sup. posing the price to be Ms., in the article of bread alone there would be a consumption to the amount of 12,000,000 lbs., and if that was applied to the United Kingdom, it would be up wards of 50,000,0001b5. Now, the next article to which the Right Hon. Baronet had referred was woollen cloth. That ' was an article that was essentially necessary. He had stated that in Prussia the consumption was two ells each parson. These were the great and importantillustrations given by the Right Hon. Baronet as proof of the superior condition of the people of England as compared•with Prussia. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated the relative proportion of con sumption in this country, upon the authority of two gentlemen whom he considered well informed upon the subject ; lnit he would put it to the Right Hon. Baronet whether there was in reality any means of arriving at a correct estimate upon the matter. He would ask the Right llon. Baronet if he had any idea of the average yearly consumption of his owe, family ? He would ask any Hon. Member in that House if he knew the average of his own consumption, or of that of his next door neighbour ? He believed that any lion. Member %%mild reply to the question in the negative ; and the Right Hon. Bart. must have been much in need of argumenta when he had recourse to statements of such a nature. He (Mr. Williams) had travelled through many parts of Prussia, and he believed from his own observation that the working-classes there were in a better condition than the working-classes in thiscountry. He had reason to believe that the condition of the working classes in Switzerland:and in France was still better than in Prussia. The Right Hon. Gentleman had referred to the United States, and stated that one of the causes of the greet depression which had of late prevailed in the trade of this country, was the derangement in the monetary affairs of the United States. Now he (Mr. Williams) had been in the United States at the period referred to by the Right Hon. Baronet, and he had seen no evidence there of distress of any kind ; the people were well fed and well clothed, anti there was ne human being who seemed to suffer from poverty. But he, in common with every Englishman who visited that part of the country, could not but feel regret when they saw the 3,000 newspapers published there daily, containing some accounts of the awful distress existing amongst the working classes in this country, and drawing a comparison between the misery and destitution of the people here and the happy con dition of the people of the United States. He saw there a most extraordinary advancement in the state of their manufac tures. They hail not only supplanted us in their own market, but they had beaten us to a considerable ex tent in neutral markets. Three millions, six hundred thousand dollars, worth of tnanuafactured goods had been exported, during the last year, to the United States. Hear, hear.) He expected the Right Honourable Baronet would have regarded the rising condition, which was advancing in the United States, as producing an impression on the mind of the working classes o f thi s country. Th ey m i g ht depend upon it, that un l ess t h e working-classes in this country were relieved of some of their burdens, our manufacturing trade must decline. He could see no possibility of it maintain ing its stand, unless by that means. He trusted the admis sion of corn free from duty would, to a great extent, relieve the depression on manufaetuting and commercial inte rests ; but he believed that more must be done for the people, ent r and , l ss i t itaeor country.. tic ) on n t mof a )f "An a w t ua i and that they must be considerably relieved from the burden of a ' t. d i s 7 u r e l : a e, ( e i s i k i n d: yf a a could bsu,tita, hteowsu seven :e l gon o o i rney k eae ta b raasc saidka ago,rai ltn t t aw h frit e a:ris l state out:ikoe t B e ed e late to set about any measure, he believed that measures might be adopted yet to afford substantial relief to the manu facturing population, whereby they might recover and sustain their former position. They neither want skill nor in dustry..---( Hear, hear, hear.) No people excelled them in those qualities, but they could not contend with the Swiss people, who paid scarce any taxes, whil,t their taxes were so immense. He certainly did expect that the Right Hon. Baronet would have regarded the present distressed condition of our manufacturing and commercial men with a feeling very different to that which he had manifested in his proposi tion. He could not help thinking that the aristocracy of this country, for whose benefit the.e laws were 'maintained, were committing a great injustice. The people of this country had regarded the aristocracy with every feeling, uf moderation and respect. Now they began to examine into the grounds of their claims to tax the rest of the community. What did the middle classes say of the aristocracy L-those middle classes who had always been their shield, and who would continue to be their shield, if they did not persist in maintaining a system of oppression and injustice ? 1 hey said that the aristocracy who thus taxed them were superior to them neither physically nor mentally, neither in virtue nor in morals; arid they asked, what right had they, in the midst of luxury anti splendour. to tax the fool of the people ? He believed that the tinse was fast approaching, and lie did not say it to taunt that class, he had no such feeling towards them f but he believed the time was fast approaching, when, if they continued to pursue this courre of injustice towards the middle and working-classes, their pre tensions would be very inconveniently enquired into by those classes of this country. If they depended on the military, the police, and the constabulary, for their suppott, they would not be able to maintain that tax. If they placed themselves in hostile opposition to the peple, how tdd they expect the contest would end ?—( Hear, hear.) Let them look to the condi:ion of trance. No aristocracy could be prouder, or have enjoyed greater privileges than did the aristocracy of France, They pursued the same course in levying oppressive taxation on the people, but what was the result? We need not say what is the end of that aristocracy. There is nothing like being wise in time.—(Hear, hear.) There was a feeling abroad among the people that would not allow them to suffer oppression.—( Hear, hear.) He would vote for the proposition of the',Noble Lord the Member, for London, because he thought a lixetHuty preferable to a sliding scale; at the same time that he objected to all taxes on food, and would vote for the propo sition of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton as the only one which would give satisfaction to the country, and which he be lieved ought to be the law of the land.—( Cheers. ) Mr. ORNISItY GORE said that having taken a deep ins tere.t in the present question, he gave it his utmost attention during th. t ecess, and with the assistance of an able and honest neighbour his he was enabled to ascertain exactly to a fraction the consump ion of 13 families, consisting of 69 individuals, all of them labouring in his immediate neighbourhood. Those la bourers were all of them in constant employment, and he found their consumption to be eight bushels and a small fraction, im perial measure, per head per annum —that was one quarter. The consumption by each individual, taking the average at 565. 9d., the measure would be eight bushels for twelve months, which would be Is. 04d. a head per sleek. The duty amounted to ss. 94d., which would be 50. a month er lid. a week on each, and this was the amount that the party op.. posite cried out was destroying the working man. But those were too wise to believe this statemsnt, though he would grant the party opposite had issued violent placards and established a violent league, and had raised money in a very extraordinary manner. Not on account of these five farthings a week, but for party purpcses, they desired to shake the island to its centre. Now to show how their conduct was regarded he would refer to a letter he had received from a working man. He knew nothing of the author of this letter, but he stated that he.was a working man ont ; of employment, and that the tnajo -rity of his class were perfectly aware that the Corn-laws had nothing to do with their misery. The Hon. Member then read the extract be had alluded to, in which the writer advised that the working men should be consulted, and they would state that the great and primary cause of all their distress had re mained unnoticed; they would state that neither the Corn-laws, r.or the currency, nor the banks affected them, while their labour remained untouched ; but that any power that should destroy their labour, would destroy them likewise. They knew that all their distress was-to be attributed to the unlimited ex tension of machinery, which,- during the last two years, had thrown thousands of persons out of employment ; that the same cause was extending, and, unless checked by Legislative enact ments, would end in bringing down ruin on the heads of those who were so anxious for its extension. The Hon. Member thiin gave (we understood from the same document) a coal putatiort of the amount of handlabour that would have been re quired to supply the same quantity as was furnished by a power-loom employing only two men to attend to it. He would not trouble the House with any arguments upon this letter. He (Mr. Ormsby Gore) had risen in consequence of the challenge given by the Hon. Member opposite, and in con sequence of his (Mr. 0. Gore) having in the year 1840 gone at considerable length into the question of the Corn-laws, and therefore he thought he 'ought not to remain perfectly silent. The question had been properly divided by the lion. and Gal lant. Member for Westminster into three parts, a fixed duty one, a sliding-scale, and no duty at all the' other. '\\'hat he (Mr. 0. Core) stated two Years ago, he was prepared to carry opt at that moment. He was strengthened in that opinion very considerably by what he had seen and heard since the commemement of the debate, and from what had fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for Lon don, and the Honourable Member for Bolton. He (Mr. Ormsby Gore) gave credit to the lion. Member for Wolverhampton for his honest, straightforward, and English manlike conduct in coming forward for a total repeal of these laws.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) He (Mr. Villiers) felt that it was to the interest of the country, and therefore lie had brought it forward in a manly and straightforward manner. But when he (Mr. Ormsby Gore) heard the Noble Lord com ing forward for a fixed duty, he could not give him credit for the same motives, feeling convinced, as he did, that it was im practicable. He, therefore, should denounce the measure of a fixed duty, as not being that straightforward, honest, and open system upon which legislation should be founded. He be lieved the system was founded on deceit, and he should have thought that the division of last year would have set it to rest in the tomb of its ancestors; and he hoped that a division on this motion would be such, that it would put it to rest for ever. He was certain that if it was passed into a law, those clamorous for an alteration in the present system would then become clamorous for a total repeal. With regard to a repeal of the duty altogether, lie should rather support that than a fixed duty. But they must recollect that the home trade took two-thirds of the manufactures of the kingdom, and if they destroyed the agricultu r i s t s , they mu s t th en be dep en d en t u p on foreigners for the sale of their manufactures. He did not believe that the labouring classes of this country were at prices q home uiteso stultified, what ltified th,aey as to give geeut elsewhere.pirreadyn7n would have another opportunity of entering into the subject when the money Hon. Member brought forward his amendment, and he should therefore not trouble the House further. Mr. WARD said they were very much indebted to the Hon. Member who had just addressed the House for setting at rest a question upon which there was very great difference of opinion, both in that House and in the country; namely, the precise amount of protection the gentlemen for whose benefit the Corn laws were instituted, received. The Hon. Member had said that he had risen to address the House in answer to a challenge from the Hon. Member for Coventry. He had told them that the question of the Corn-laws and the duty they imposed upon the community were .things not worth con sidering, and that the amount of consumption of each indivi dual was. He (Mr. Ward) did not understand the Hon. Member in his first statement, although he was perfectly in telligible afterwards. He stated that the consumption for each individual was eight bushels per annum, and that the amount of duty was ss. 9d. per head per annum, which, in a family of five individuals, was 335. for the family, making for the whole population, proved to be ab0ur25,000,000, somethino. like 5,000,0001. per annum, which were the taxes levi e d an d sus tained by the sliding scale upon the working people. For this admission the country could not but be grateful, but he (Mr. Ward) dared say that the Right Hon. Baronet would not be obliged to him at all for the admission, but the admission was in his own figures. Mr. ORMSRY GORE—No, no. I said ss. 9d. a head. Mr. WARD—Five shillings and ninepence was fora family of five or six, about 335. while for the whole population it amounted to somewhere about 5,000,000/. in good round num bers. He (Mr. Ward) was not responsible •for the Hon. Gentleman figures, but they were his own admissions, and therefore he (Mr. Ward) was entitled to suppose that the lion. Gentleman meant a poll-tax to be levied on every person not a landowner, and which, when levied, the Hon. Member told them was not worth contending for. The Hon. Member said that that agitation, was a popularity cry and a mere party question, amongst 3-4ths of the population ; and then he brought its a letter from a workingman who said he did not consider that the depression arose from the Corn-laws, but was mainly owing to the mischiefs produced by machinery. Now upon that matter, he was as much at issue with the Right Hon. Baronet, as he was with them. He had heard several gentlemen, and particularly a Noble Lord opposite cheering the most violent passages in that speech with which the debate had been closed the night before. He alluded to the speech of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough—a speech replete with pas sion, and devoid of all that calmness which should attend dis. mission. In that speech all the rules of Parliament had been• transgressed, a speech in which the question was changed to one of mere personality. The attack was made from that (the Ministerial side of the House), and not from those who were agitating. The charges in that speech were of a most. marked character. But to return ; the lion. Gentleman who had spoken last had said that there were three questions before the house, or that there were three divisions of one question—a fixed duty ; the sliding scale; and no duty at all. Now he (Mr. Ward) denied that that was a correct statement of the question. There were a great many opinions upon this sub ject, and he (Mr. 'Ward) must confess that there had been a great deal of misrepresentation as to the question the Noble Lord had submitted to the House. They were not assembled to decide a fixed duty or a sliding scale. They were not called upon to give an opinion upon the Bs. duty or a sliding scale. The Noble Lord near him had never mentioned an Bs. duty as part of his proliosition.—( Laughter from the Ministe rial benches.) lie hadnever mentioned an Bs. duty in any part of the proposition which he had submitted to the House. What the Noble Lord had stated was plainly this, that what. ever peculiar burthens the agriculturist sustained, for these burthens he was willingto give compensation. They were not called upon to name any extent of protection. He (Mr. Ward) had taken the liberty of gi v i ng no ti ce l as t sess i on , an d be should take an early opportunity of doing so again, of his intention to move for a Committee to inquire what were the peculiar burthens agriculturists were subject to in this country. Hear, hear," and cheers)---and whether there were any peculiar burthens at all.—(Lond cheers.) He did not intend to enter into the question of those burthens till after that mo tion. (Lord Stanley made some remarks across the table, ' which were inaudible.) The Noble Lord would admit with him (Mr. Ward) that it was laudable to endeavour to remove any burthens upon trade ; and with respect to the trade in corn, they must all acknowledge the endeavours of the Noble Lord (J. Russell). He (Lord J. Russell) had acquitted himself with peculiar credit l ast n i g h t, i n recommending a fixed duty in preference to a slidi ng sca l e. Hi s (M r . Ward's) conviction was, that the time for a fixed duty was rapidly pass ing away. It was passing away in the way in which every thing passed away, when put i nto t h e b alance o f great p ar ty questions. In these great qu es ti ons great m i sta k es were f re • quently committed, and the public were benefited by it. It was thus that you gave us the Reform Bill. Had a consti tuency been given to Birmingham when it was first demanded, most likely the Reform Bill would never have been carried. It was a great mistake of the Right Honourable Ba ronet, in proposing his scale ; for, as in 1831, it would most likely be the means of giving the people of this country a total repeal of all laws restricting the free importation of food, because the landowners, when they had the opportunity, did not c h oose to accep t the plan which would have given them an adequate protection. He (Mr. Ward) was very well aware that after the discussion of this subject they should have Birmingham over again. He was sorry to see this agitation on that great question.—(Laughter from the Ministerial Benches.) Hon. Gentlemen seemed to think that he had an interest in every species of agitation when he had not, for he did no t like agitation. He came down to that House on Wednesday, he admitted, with a very foolish faith in the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, for hi' thought it was probable that ho was going to make a proposi tipn to that House which would settle the question for years to come.—(Hear.) It was not his (Mr. Ward's) fault if the Right Honourable Baronet had disappointed him. He (Mr. Ward) was not pledged to extreme measures by his constituents. His constituents had sent up a ptition to that House, which hail been presented that day, bearing a large number of signatures, hut be was perfectly free to take any course he pleased, and his hope had been that the Right Hon. Baronet would have made a proposition which he (Mr. Ward) might have thought would have proved an alleviation of the dis tresses of the country. When they talked of having the pri vilege of protection enjoyed by one particular class in the coun try, they must have some very strong public grounds to go upon. They were not to say, as had been said by the Vice- President of the Board of Trade yesterday, that because protection existed 140 s ears, that they . were t o g i ve a protection of 20s. per quarter on wheat. He (the Vice-President of the Board o f T ra d e ) went to show that the sliding scale was a great security against fluctuation of prices, and tried to prove it by the example of Prussia, where he said the prices of corn frequently ranged higher than in this country. lie (Mr. Ward) had referred the principateause of fluctuation. to the work of Mr. Wilson, an authority Tinted by the Right le the Legislature Hon. Vice-President of the Board of Trade', from which he had learned much, and he went along with hthifmaermecneirtisrrneo-lifyalivEnsn.hgii! ld sown guineas argument. He (Mr. W aepredenr)rheteel e: ;:mi h nit t pt t oo b st a sh t i be nluaonet land thought pu s o eg l sh e tw c ti a hl i u ec s h e hwme Legislaturedreb Mous suppositions; they hail brought; intocultivation land which could realize. He thought the farmer had ;;one on upon fella thheioh fallacious hopes never should have been cultivated they and reaped shillings, and, mainly, success of competi tion, and bad legislation, was to . be attributed the excessive produce of certain years, and this was the opinion of Mr. Wilson. He would read a few extracts from the work of Mr. work which stated the opinion 1 writer, that the farmers Wilson. The Hon. Gentlemat o i . th t e i n e read an extract from the i n the whole of argument. There held out by the Legi prices. These ge importations of over-cultivated their foreign corn ; and thus the foreigner took almost the entire benefit of the rise in our prices. Now, thathe (Mr. Ward) went led to large high prices Immediately was a false stimulus to the fume!, and no modification of the evil, thou along with Mr. Wilson, sliding scale could remedy the gh hopes were held out to the farmers which never could be expected to be realised ; land s latur fr e om of fog, as thes Right Hon. Baronet had justly observed, his plan of the Corn-laws was not for the purpose of preventing prices from ranging from 735. to 365. The Right Hon. Baronet adopted a well-known principle He maechanics he did mit waste his power.—( Laughter) experience of 1815, a great deal of . power was wasted in the former Bill—that 38s. was like putting a steam engine of forty horse power where a steam engine . of five-h orse power was sufficient. Thirty-eight shillings, it was well known, never could be realised. The Right Hon. Baronet had said it was quite useless to ask more than Ds., which was a perfectly na tural feeling, for he knew very well that it was useless to waste power.—( Cries of " Hear, hear, cheers, and laughter. ) ' Two millions quarters of corn was the very utmost that could be got from the whole of Europe; for instance, upon a calcu lation of the exports of the three principal exporting towns upon the continent—namely, Hamburgh, Stettin - D • , ant antzic— it would be found that Hamburgh exported three hundred and fifty thousand quarters of corn last year, , 31.etin, '250,000 quarters, , and Dartzic, 315,00 0 quarters, all at an average price of 40s. per quarter ; then, if the freight were added, it would increase it by four or five shillings, so that it was per fectly obvious it could not be bad, at the very lowest rate, at less than 455. a quarter • that was according to Mr. M ee k' s calcula , tions, and it should be recollected that Mr. Meek was the E.BRUA,RYI 6, 84. Right Hon. Gentleman's own agent, and that the Right Hon. Gentleman relied upon those calculations. Lord STANLEY—Oh, no, no ! Mr. 'WARD had given the figures as they were in Mr. Meek's report, and he believed they were correct, they showed clearly that no quantity of foreign wheat, to any consi derable amount, could be introduced into the English markets if a high duty was imposed. The fact was, that the moment the corn in the home markets arrived at a certain price, the i S. duty of last year wduld just have done what the Right Hon. Baronet now professed to do.—( Hear, hear.) A duty of 10s. would bring the price of foreign wheat up to 55.5. a quarter; but, instead of that, the duty upon wheat, whenever tke ave rage price was 545. a quarter (the present price which it was proposed to maintain), was 18s. ; when it was 60s. a quarter, then the duty was 12s. ; so that it must get beyond 515., be for the miserable advantage of Is. cou ld b e had upon thequar ter. The Right Hoe,. Gntleman d en i e d th at h e (Mr. Ward) had quoted Mr. Meek's figures correctly.—(Hear, hear, from Sir R. Peel). He believed the av erage pr i ce of ' 4os. a quar ter in the foreign markets, whi c h was stated by -Mr. Me( k, was only when there was stagnation in the markets ; the first indication of a b a d season or a b ad market ' in this country always had the effect of raising the aserage prices of the foreign markets.—(Hear, hear.) After the eight shilling point was attained, there was in his (Mr. Ward's) opi nion an improvement in the proposed scheme.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He freely admitted that he li4ed that part of the scheme, and he was bound to say he liked it much better than the proposition of his Noble .friend (Lord John Russell) last year—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches, and counter cheers);—because the Noble Lord allowed himself to be foiled by the plans so ably • and so judiciously laid for him by the Rig - ht Hon. Gentleman opposite.—( Laugh ter and cheers.) The Noble Lord placed himself in difficulties, out of which he should now get as well as lie could. He placed himself in a position with respect to that question, in which he (Mr. Ward) begged to state he would not stand with the Noble Lord.( Loud cheers and counter cheers.) At the same time he agreed entirely with the Noble Lord upon the general principles which he developed in the proposition, which he had last year brought forward. In all those prineiples he ( Mr. Ward) begged to state he most cor dially concurred—( Cheers from the opposition)—but he con ceived that the Right Hon. Baronet's scheme was a bad scheme, and founded uponbad principles. All sliding scales produced the same unfavourable results. He thought that if the fixed duty was not made too high there could be a regulation upon which , corn could be had always at a fair price and never rise too high. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, that at all events his scheme would maintain the price of corn at a certain price. New, he (Mr. Wood) had taken an extract of the duties for four years, and found that a variable duty was paid. I Is. a quarter duty was paid on corn in 1833 ; 19s. in 1834 on 263,000 quarters ; 14s. in 1636 on 932,000 quarters ; and 28s. in 1837 for 210,000 quarters. Why was that? Because corn had then become such a drug in all the continental markets, that they could afford to pay any amount of duty, if they could only dispose of it—(Hear, hear)—but it was his opinion, that if this country had a regular supply of corn, it would never have to pay such a sum as would warrant an over supply of foreign corn. He would ask the House to consider what the effects of the present system were, and what their effects had been upon this country? They all knew the dig.. tress that existed ; he considered it impossible totreat that sub ject so lightly as the lion. Member for knaresborougb haddone. —( Hear.) It was admitted upon all sides, that the country was placed in the greatest misery and distress. The Honour able Member for Leeds, who had seconded the address to her Majesty, had candidly admitted it, and made the most feeling confession of the fact. That Hon. Gentleman stated that he had received accounts of the existing state of distress froaa all parts of the country, and that he firmly believed there was no exaggeration in those accounts ; besides, there were many Members in that House ready to testify them, if necessary— ( Hear, hear)—Honourable Members from all parts of the country, and connected with almost every branch of trade, and every large manufacturing depot in the country. They were all aware of the distress prevailing in Leeds, in Glasgow, Paisley, Bolton, Nottingham, and several other places ; from all j branches of industry the same stories of distress had come.—( Hear, hear.) As to Sheffield, the people we c better off there than in many other places. That was owing to local circumstances, and even there the privations of the people were so great that it was impossible for them to contend against the incubus which had been cast apon them by the present Corn-laws.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then entered into a detail of the privations to which the in habitants of Sheffield were subjected, and stated that these privations were entirely attributable to the operation of the laws with respect to the importation of foreign corn. A an instance of the deteriorated and impoverished condition of the people of Sheffield, Mr. Ward stated that there were at pre.: sent . no less than 31,000 houses uninhabited in that towni whereas in 1837 there was not a single house vae.ant there. That was a proof of the exemplary patience !.as the Right Hon. Gentleman called it) with which the people had endured the distress they were suffering under ; the only thing that placed the people of Sheffield at all in a better position than their neighbours was, that under the late law there had been a gradual coming in of American corn into the country, but if the Right Hon. Gentleman's scheme were adopted, it would totally prohibit the introduction of American corn—( Hear, hear)—and upon that ground in itself, if there was no. other, he (Mr. Ward) . was determined to give it every possible oppo sition. His constituents at Sheffield had derived sonic advan tage from their trade with America, and from the introduction of corn even in a limited degree ; but against that trade the present Government appeared determined to close the doors of this country by imposing a high and prohibitory duty.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) The importation of American corn into Sheffield had formed the basis of trade there within the last three years, but the measures proposed by the Government must have the effect of putting a stop to it, although he would beg leave to ask the night Ho nourable Gentleman why he recommended a sliding scale to be adopted in this country, a n d w hy .h e w i s h e d f or 'a fixed ' duty in Canada. Why should there not be a sliding scale in Canada as well as in England?—(Cheers.) The whole arose from a mean jealousy on the part of the landed proprietors.— (Loud cheers.) He hoped the present measure would not be persevered with. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-Pre sident of the Board of Trade, said that the reduction of Ame rican produce would be in proportion with the introduction of foreign wheat. On the contrary, there was a want of em ployment in the country, arising from the prohibitory duties on foreign corn. It was stated that joint-stock banks and an over supply of machinery had a great deal to do with the dis tress which existed in the country. He believed that the • power of production was the groat cause of it. The ROIL Gentleman then went into a detail of the diminution of the home consumption of cotton, and showed that it was clear over-production was not the cause of distress ; it was the want of the power of the population to consume. The Right Hon. Gentleman had but one choice, he should give industry fair play; he should release it from all its shackles, but the scheme he proposed could nut assist bins in doing, that. If the Right Hon. Gentleman could be shown that his proposition was only a modification of the old measure, of which he (Mr. Ward) believed it to be a most servile copy— ( Laughter and cheers)—how was it possible he could persevere with it ?—(Loud cheers.) A better speech against the proposed meas ure, he (Mr. Ward) never read than that of the ltight Hon. Baronet in introducing it to the house—(Hear, hear, hear, and laughter)—he spoke to the last moment with_.l a manifest consciousness that he could not meet even the expectatiobs of the Hon. Gentlemen on his own side of the House.—(Hear, and 1 aughter.) If the Ri g ht Hon. Gentle man thought his own opinion was better than that of every lion. Gentleman who had spoken to the question, lie deserved credit, at all events, for a good deal of self-opirnen.—(Laugh ter. ) But he (Mr. Ward) believed, if a good and an effec tual remedy was sot applied to the existing distress, it would excite the deepest and the bitterest disappointment. Did they think that those flimsy coverings which they threw over their proceedings in this House were not seen through 'by the public? They were.—(Loud cheers, and counter cheers.) He repeated it, they were seen through ; and who ii the people of this country saw that not one man would vote in favour of this tax who had not a personal interest in carrying it, it explained tall that had taken place lately—it explained the dissolution—and it was enough to demoralise the country. —( Cheers, and laughter.) He looked on the measure pro posed by the Right Hon. Baronet as one which would disap point every reasonable man in this country. It could riot give the slightest relief , yet he had no doubt the Right lion. Baronet would carry it.—(" llear, hear," from the Toriss.) But he knew there was a power beyond this House which had actuated the framing of this scale ; he believed the Right Hon. Baronet would have made a better scale if they . would have let him, but' he had sacrificed his own convictions for the purpose of keeping the party together which he had the misfortune to lead. He believed that he (the Right Hon. Baronet) had many reluctant followers, and that he was forced to assume a semblage of union which did not really exist.--(Hear ) He prevented them from splitting, but lie had better have done so by stating his own conviction, instead of bringing forward such a measure as this, which had caused him (Mr. Ward) to give his support to the motion of the Noble Lord, for if they came to choose between a motion like this and a total repeal, he thought there could be no doubt as to which deserved their support • and he (Mr. Ward) should rote for the motion of his Noble Friend the Member for London.—(Hear.) Sir E. KNATCHBULL then rose, but he spoke in ss low a tone of voice, and also turned his back to the reporters, that we were rot able to catch the whole of his remuks. He trusted the House would bear with him for a short time, and he would premise that he should not detain them longer than was necessary. Gentlemen opposite had accused them of not having abided by their former opinions ; he would not stop to inquire whether they were right er not, but he would say, that if Gentlemen on his side of the House had receded from those extreme opinions which had been ascribed to them, those on the other side had been guilty of the same thing. Did the Hon. Member for Bolton remember that he had stated last evening that the people paid 50,000,000. of what he called a tax upon bread.—(lfear.) This night he had reduced it t05,000,000/.—( flear;hear)—and if all the other statements of the Hon. Member were to be reduced in the -. same degree, they would find that the people of this country, instead of being injured by the proposed law, would be greatly benefited by it.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman op posits hid alluded in strong terms to the speech made by the Hon. Member for Knaresborongh ; he had no doubt the Hon. Memlier would defend that speech and the statements con tained in it, nor would he meddle with that speech in order to defend it ; but he must beg leave to say that the Hon. Gen tleman opposite, in accusing the lion. Mehaber for Knaresbo rough in the terms which he had employed, had done more than one Member of that House was justified in doing towards another—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and he (Sir E. Knatchbull) hoped the lion. Gentleman opposite would be more cautious in his future strictures on the speeches which might proceed fora his side of the House.—(Cheers.) lie would now revert to the absolute question before the House. They had,entered at some length into the question of the scale. lie thought this should have been deferred till they met in Com mittee, because he knew they should have to discuss it over and over again ; but in reference to the proposition made by the Noble Lord, whether a sliding scale or any other plan de served his preference, he had said few words on the subject, and an Hon. Gentleman had observed that the Noble Lord had never mentioned the Bs. duty. He had ingeniously given that the go by. But what was the Object of the Noble Lord's speech ? lie either intended to propose the Bs. duty, and to make that the law, or else to have no duty whatever ; but he had left them in great difficulty to know what was his opinion. But if the Noble Lord expected that the landed interest of this country would place any reliance or con fidence in him, he would be very greatly mistaken.-- (Hear.) The plan proposed by the Noble Lord could not be tried with the consent of the interest he (Sir E. Knatch bull) represented. lie had marvelled greatly what the Noble Lord would say when he came to the its. duty, and when he had got there lie had said, what was very evident was the only thing he could say, namely, that they could not retain that duty. He (Sir E. Knatchbull) would now quote from a very high authority on the subject. Mr. M'Culloch had said that a simple fixed duty on corn would be better than anything they could propose , if it w ere possible it could be retained.— (Cheers and loud counter-cheers.) But when it was the fact that when corn reached a certain point the duty must be re moved, they had an entire answer to the whole question.— (Hear, hear.) In e series of twenty years that occurrence might not take place; but who knew when it might occur? It might lie in the first or second year, and ho would warn the Gentlemen who represented the landed interest, that when the time came for the removal of the duty, they might depend upon it, it would not be easy again to renew it. Ile must say that the landed interest had freely received the proposal made by the Right Hon. Baronet, and he (Sir E. Knatelibull) should never have agreed to it unless it gave to the agriculturists such ample security for their property as might enable them to maintain that - Station in society which it was their right t o .it h ad been ionncl ;pre profitable to devote land to grazing hold.J(Loud Cheers from' the Opposition benches.) That purposes. It was therefore clear thatwe could no longer look statement was met by cheers from the Opposition side of the to Ireland for II pl'es as eet fore. (ear hear.) In this . House, but if he had nut made it he should not have been acting state of things: a P nd i at apei l :ii , d ° of acknowledged distress, the I consistently for the cause w hi c h he advocated. They on the Right Ilon. Gentlemai the First 1 1.14nister of the Crown came other side of the House came forward to advecate the cause of forward and anno unce d' to the House' • the distressed manufacturers, for that distress he and his pasty his opinion, the Corn - . laws our ht be a altered. He(Mr. L.) felt is much as they did.—(Loud cries of " Hey, hear,") agreed entirely and the country that, ire with what he had often heard the Right lion. They (the agriculturi s t s ) h a d, h owever , themseNes some Baronet say, that the Corn-law was a question which years back been placed i n th e same di s t ress as that of which ought not to be altered without a great necessity • but if the the manufacturers now complained. What was the course the necessity had arriv e d, t h e alteration ought to be so ' fir sat's agriculturists adopted? They went t o th e L eg i s l a ture and fa c t o ry as to he an improvement in the condition of the people. asked for relief ; but did they ask that their interest should be —(Cheers ) He (Mr. L.) had examined the Scale proposed promoted at the cost of the manufacturers ? No, they tock a by the Right Hoa. Baronet, and his (Mr. L.'s) opinion of it very Afferent course; they relied on the justice aud the w,olom would be given in a few words. There was a great deal of of the Legislature. But what was the course the manufac- a pp are nt masagement in some practical substitution of turers now pursued ? They asked them to grant a measure a sliding for a lumping scale, and oho some posi which would place them in th e same p os iti on as th a t in which tire improvements, for the evils of the jumps were the manufacturers were at present placed —( Cries of " Oh, oh," demonstrative. He believed also that the plan of the Right from the Opposition benches.) Fi e did no t thi n k these things Hon. Gentleman, while most efficiently protecting agricul sheuld be scouted at ; he thought they sh o uld meet a recep- tore, would bring more money to the revenue than the exist tion of a very different character ; they (the Ministers) might i ng one . Still, admitting' those improvements, he (Mr. L.) be mistaken in the views they held ; but they believed they must say that the more he • looked at the subject the less lie were right; and if they gave th em t h e measure which felt that it would afford any practical amelioration of the cors was asked by the Noble Lord, they would fail in relieving elitie,n of thew, Masses who had been aggrieved by the opera - the distress of which they complained. Its speaking of dis- 'tion of the present Owe laws, and that therefore it was not tress. the How Gentleman had especially alluded to the town worth while going about it for the sake of the little improve which he himself represented. He m us t k rue . v , h owever, t h at ment that had beets introduced.—(Cheers.) As for three the principal trade of Sheffield was with the l'inited States (if numerous classes who had so long suffered under the existing America, and that the difficulties which had taken place across system, nothing iti the way of practical benefit would result._ the water, must have been at the bott o m o f that distress. He (Cheers.) But before adverting to the sliding scale in detail, trusted and he believed that those difficulties w ou ld soon cease, there was an important preliminary part to which he first desired that the distres s i n Sheffield would cease with th em , an d t h at to call the attention of the House. the more so as it had not vet the eommes real relations between the two countries would be been adverted to, On comparing the scaleof the Right Hon. Be put on a sound a footing, as he was sure must be the desire of robet with the old one, a considerable diminution of duties must every Member ofboth sides of the House. The Hon. Gentle- undoubtedly be acknowlelged. But, before he made up his man opposite had said that he could not perceive any mind on peculiar burthens on the landed interests, or why, they • the Right minor consid ' erasions. In proposing the new male, this point. Ise (34. Laboachere) must attend to a few should be entitled to any protection at all. Surely this Hon. Baronet proposed several other alterations in taking seas not the time to tell the country of the many burthens on the the averages, by adding no less than 156 tomes to the 150 agriculturists, in the shape of taxes, disqualifications, and the from whirls the averages were already taken, and by taking many disabilities under which the laud laboured, among the the duty of making the averages out of the hands of the corn greatest of which was the prohibition of the cultivation of to- inspectors, who had it now, and entrusting it to the Excise bacco in this country. If they adopted the step of ;removing officers. Of these 156 many were small agricultural towns, the duty from corn, were they prepared to answer for the con and, when added to the p resen t 150, th e aggrega t e wou ld in sequences ?—( Hear, hear, f rom th e O ppos iti on b enc h es .) He elude almost all the large towns in the country. Now this (Sir E. Knatchbull) had had dealings with a farmer in his change would affect the averages, as hitherto advertised, and neighbourhood, who was a very cunning man in his abut the might alter the whole scheme of duties. The corn inspectors farmer said to him one day, " I have been thinking the had made up the returns in a very careless manner. Corn-laws, and these new fangled notions, I think 'should like but the Excise officers would do the business carefully; so far to have a free trade in corn." This surprised him very much, this would he an improvement, though, doubtless, the Right and he said he had never heard him say so before, Hon. Gentleman had no intention to affect the averages. But nor any one else in his situ a ti on —(L ou d cr i es o f " Oh, o h !" f rom t h e op i n i ons o f pract i ca l an d experienced men, he was from the Opposition benches)—" Well, but I think I'm right," enabled to say, that. the effect of those alterations, and of others said the farmer, " I should like to ha ve th e C orn -laws re- w hi c h h e woul d i mme di ately a d vert to, would be to cause a prac pealed, and a ree-trade instead, but on one condition, that lice' reduction in the advertised average of no less than ss. a guar before they are repealed; I should like to sell all my stock, ter. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that he had examined the sheep, corn, and such like, and to lie by till we can see the alleged averages, and that so far as he could make out, the It'd effect of the change." He ( Sir E. Knatchbull) said that feronce of price between the London averages and the gene ra l could not be done. " Oh, then," said the farmer, "I think averages of the country was very small. Now he (:1144- it would be better to have the laws remain as they are."—(A bouchere), after referring to the documents that bad beenwur.. laagh. ) Now, if the duty were taken off corn, what would niched to that House, did not think that that statement of the become of all the labourers and occupiers of land in the agri- Right Hon. Baronet could be borne out. On the ccotrary, cultural districts? A large number of them would be sent to he thought it was clear from the papers to winch the manufacturing districts, which would only cause more he should presently advert, that the Londoa averages in the misery, distress, and destitution than exists at present.— year 1841, by means of fictitious sales—it practice whieli he ( Hear, hear.) If there were one part of the speech made by did no t, mean to defend, but which, nevertheless, had ode lac ) tical effect of lowering the prices —it appeared that the London - the lien. Gentleman opposite, which he (Sir E. Knatclibull regretted more than another, it was that part which insinuated averages were affected by fictitibus sales, maths by p 1 tor London, nie 's. Then, than I t t 4 1 : :e : e a be v e l wa ft e g e e n s s that, their actions were founded or interested motives. Such a t w h h e o a rn ve o r t a i g ag es ed ot t . o th m e a eu k u e t a ,tr d y i , ff e e x re e n lu c d e in o g f statement could leave no impression on the minds of men who h t e hat pr e i • e a e s . sufficienntiy, apsrot;dtlisiye ir )f ar A ed cr upou did their duty because it was their duty, and who stood there fi of ettt l i s e o u n s do u n at w u 4 r h e i( u h f ti g ,u o s v e ern a e le d s_ t on different grounds than to promote their own interest. He (Sir E. Knatchbull) thought it his duty to consider this sues ; that subject. In the six weeks ending the 27t1 P s the quantity sold. Those were•the facts which a tion distinct from the opinions entertained by any one else and he liked it because it would be heneficial in his opinion 1830, 21,630 quarters of wheat had been sold in the London alike to the British farmer and the British manufacturer— market , _. while, in the corresponding period of the year 1 . 640 (Bear, hear)—and he rejoiced to say that the majority of there had been sold 89,000 quarters. In the forn;e° pe •1, those whom he had the honour to represent, were well enough the difference i.t• the average price in the London esiarket,rrnd satisfied with the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. all the other marks is in England and Wales, was sls. 9d. in It was necessary for the well-being not only of the agricul- the latter period there was a vatiatioa of from 6s. 8d ; to turists, but• Tor the whole interest of the United Empire that e s . 6d. ; and there was, of course, a, Corresoonding difference ' the protection which now existed should be continued. The in the duty upon wheat during the two periods. He did Hon. Member for Bolton (Dr. Bowring) in representing the think, therefore, that the Rioht Hun. Baronet succeeded distress that existed in that town, had said that out of fifty in putting a stop to those speculations as he expected; and if' mills in it thirty were unemployed. Now, certainly if they in- he also made the scale more extensive, by the introduction of duced the public to believe that that which was bad enough 156 new towns ; and if the Excise officers did their duty bet was worse than it really was, they did those whom they repre- ter than the corn inspectors, these things, might be perfectly sentcd a very great evil.—( The Right Hon. Baronet then pro- right in themselves ;it was not that point he was disputing, but ceeded to read an extract from some statements of 31r. Ilus- he did think the Right Hon. Baronet need not be startled to kisson, but in so low and indistinct a tone of voice as to be al- hear that the result of the three causes, taken together, would most inaudible in the gallery. We understood it to be to the be to produce an increase of not less than ss. in the averages. effect that Mr. Huskis s on had b een i n favour of a protecting —( Hear, hear.) If that were the ease., it was obvious that . duty on corn.) The Right Hon. Baronet went on to say, that the object of the whole scheme would he defeated, and, in though that opinion w as expresse d by Air. Huskisson in 1814, some respects, they should be worse off under the treasure of yet that, on an abstract question such as the present was, the the Right Hon. Bironet, than under the present system. Let at opini another. on of so high aau n thority was as go at an n one sit be supposed, for instance, th a t t h e pr i ce under the present As for himself he would go od at he cours time a e law was 775., the equivalent average under the scheme of the lie had taken ; and lie trusted the opinions he had entertained, Right Honourable Baronet would be 725., and the duty and the arguments he had advanced on the subject, would be under that scheme would be 225., while it would confirmed by a large majority of that House. now be only 21s.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish Dr. Bt./WRING, amidst cries of " Order, order," "Hear, to weary the House with details; but if there was any truth in hear," rose to explain.—lt was true that when he (Dr. Bow- the statements he had made they would derange the calcula ting) spoke of the state of Bolton, he had in reading from a lions of the Right Hon. Baronet, and with a nominal lower document which had been put into his hands, said that out of ing of the scale they would have, in reality, a higher duty. fifty mills in that town thirty were unemployed. He came One of the evils that had been most complained of under the down spontaneously the next day to the .House, and stated existing system was, the evil of the fluctuations of prices which that the document from which he had read the previous evening it had caused. In former debates he had heard that defect had been incorrectly copied—that a part occurring in the ori- much denied. Ile did not believe, however, that on the pre gitial document had been left out by the transcriber. ' The sent occasion any Hon. Gentleman had ventured in the same expression in the original was, that thirty mills were unem- confident manner to deny that fluctuations had been caused by 'guyed, or working short time. The words, "or working short the fluctuations of the present system. It was no answer to time," had been through mistake or carelessness omitted in say that there might be countries in the world where fluctua the copy from which he had read to the House. If the Right tions were still greater than here. Looking to the geographical lion. Baronet had been in his place when he (Dr. llowring) p os iti on o f England, and to her immense commercial advan had explained, he was certain that the expressions that had tages, he had no hesitation in saying, that under a sound system fallen on the present occasion from the Right Hon. Gentleman of Corn-laws this country would be, he would not say the coun would not have been used. try of the lowest prices, but certainly it wou ld b e t h e country Mr. LABOUCIIERE said, from the time thediscussion had o f the steadiest prices in the world.—(Bear, hear.) That lasted, Ise should have been content to have given a silent vote was an immense advantage which this country might enjoy ; in favour of the motion o f hi s N o ble Friend (Lord John Res- and they could not afford to throw away that or any other ad sell), perfectly satisfied to rest that vote upon the arguments vantage whirls Providence had given them. The Right Hon. which had beer, urged by the, Noble Lord and those who sat on Baronet quoted the instance of rye in Prussia, as a proof that the same side of the House with him, if he (Mr. L,) did not in that country the food of the people had been subject to equal feel and know well, that having lately occupiedan official eitua- fluctuations, or greater fluctuations, than those in the tion under the Crown, connected with the commercial interests food of the people of this country. lie wondered that, of the country, he - could hardly reconcile it to his sense of duty in calculating these fluctuations in rye in Prussia, it did to those interests, not in a few words, at least to express his opi- not occur to the Right Hon. Baronet that they could be Mons upon a questions which so deeply affected them. But he directly traced to the operation of our own Corn-laws. The could assure the House that, in soliciting it fur that patience food of the people of Prussia consisted principally of rye, but and indulgence whirls would alone enable him to express the it also consisted a good deal of wheat ; and was it. not obvious views he entertained on the subject, he should endeavour to to every gentleman that this country, by drawing to it the repay it by being as brief in his observations as possible. t wheat of Prussia, greatly raised the price of that He had listened attentively to the speech of the Right , -wheat, which then became scarce, of course, and the Honourable Baronet who had just sat down. He had I result was, that the price of rye • rose in the same • long known the Right Hon. Baronet to be in that House the I ratio as the price of wheat? He should say that argument of undlinehing advocate of high protection to the agriculturist, the Right lion. Baronet appeared to him to be a very strange and lie (Mr. Labouchere), must say, that the speech of the onc. The Right Hon. Baronet also .aid that he confidently Right lion. Baronet, as a Minister of the Crown, was in no • hoped that the alteration he proposed to introduce would prc degree at variance with th ose o pi n ions w hoa, h e (Mr. La- vent the great fluctuations which had hitherto taken place in bouchere) had heard from him in other places, speaking as a the prices of wheat in this country, because, as lie satfl, he county Member. He (Mr. Labouchere) rejoiced that the found that a more gradual scale in the duty on barley, peas, Bight lion. Baronet had given these, what they had not got beans, and other articles, had been produced, as he thought, by hitherto, namely a clear definition of what the objeot and prin- fluctuations in the price of those articles. Now he (Mr. La ciple of the present Bill, were.—( Opposition cheers.) The bouchere) was surprised to hear the Right lion. Baronet Ri g ht li o n. Baronet had been perfectly plain and explicit on com p are two t hi ngs that did not admit o f compa r is on . Wh ea t that subject. He had told them that the object of the present was the principal food of this country, whereas those other Bill was to keep up the value of the estates of the landed in- articles could he substituted the one for the other. Besides, terest—( Opposition cheers)—to preserve that interest in their these were not objects of the same pressing necessity, and station in society—(Renewed cheers from .the Opposition therefore :.t was impossible to compare those two things with benches, answered by cheers from the Ministerial side)—and any degree of propriety with such an hrticle as wheat, for which lest there should be any mistake on the subject, the Right Hon. there was a pressing and urgent demand, and which must Baronet had repeated the observation a second time. (Sir E. be had at any price.—( Hear.) lie could not make out K natehbull hero nodded assent to the sentiments attributed to that the new scheme of the Right Hon. Baronet would in any him by the lit. Hon. Gent. who went on to say ) —He perceived material degree remove or mitigate those evils which a sad it was acknowledged on the opposite of the House, that that experience had proved to attach to the present system of C orn . was the • of the Right Hon. Baronet. Now he (Mr. laws.—(Hear, hear.) meaning The Right non. Baronet laid great Labouchere) conceived that the just object of a Corn Bill was stress upon the value , Americanarket and he ex of the m of a totally different nature. He conceived that the object petted that advantages would be gained for our commerce with which that House, representing all the various classes of this that country by very wide field for this great empire, ought to have in view in passing a Corn Bill, was importance of nothaving a as But did country to to arrange the subject on such v basis as should be for the go to for its supply of such an article l. co rn. advantage of all classes of the community.—(Cheers.) Right Hon. Baronet really believe that his scale would enable lie ought not to exclude she interests of so valuable a corn- us to deal with America for flour and wheat, any more than the he could labour his munity as the proprietors of the soil—(Hear, hear)—but still present scale could? He did not believe that Isis first and paramount duty ought to be to regard and provide under any such delusion.—( Hear, hear.) He saw his Noble for interests of incalculably grea t er i m p o rtance than the in- Friend opposite, the Member for Liverpool (Lord Sandon), terests of the mere proprietors of the soil—the interests of the I he (Mr. shook his head, and seemed to contradict , that ; but . immense majority of the people of this country.—(Great %diction Labouchere) was surprised to receive a contr. , and cheerin g .) That was what he ( Mr. Labouchere) held to be mire espec i a l ly from hi s N o bl e F r i en d . H e h e ld i n hi s the just and legitimate object of a Corn Bill—(Cheers)—and hand a document of far more value than anything which he must say he had much satisfaction in remembering that in he could say upon that subject, and to which he those views he was supported by the Right Hon. Baronet's i called the • attention of the House with a conlidenee high authority.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Labouchere) was how- which he should not have ventured to put forward for any ob eyer sorry • to say that the principles advocated in some parts of servations of his own. He held in Isis hand a copy of a petition the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet were very different from presented that night by his Noble Friend the Member for the practical details of the measure he brought, forward-- Liverpool to the House, coming from no less important a bod,y ( Hear, hear)—but he (Mr. Labouchere) did agree with the than the merchants of Liverpool, engaged in th e tr a d e w ith Right lion. Gentleman that it would be unbecoming and die- America. lie would not trouble the House by reading the graceful to have it said that the object of this measure was to whole of it, but he was sure it would allow him to read some keep up the rents of the aristocracy, or to enable one class of passages. It was a moderate and ably drawn up petition, and the community to maintain their stations in society. lhe was sure that the House would agree with him, that the He (31r. Labouchere) would be as sorry as any man could opinions of such Gentlemen upon the subject were entitled to be to see the ruin and impoverishment of the landed great consideration. They said that " the United States of proprietors of the country ; but still he meant that when they America laboured under great disadvantages as compared with were legislating on a questions that concerned thu bread of the countries in Europe, in respect to the trade in wisest and people, it was their duty to regard the interests of the people flour, Isy the working of the sliding scale of duties, which 'at largo—(Cheers.) Cheers. ) The Right lion. Baronet in' introduce operated to the prejudice of every country in proportion, and ing this subject admitted that it was one of awful importance. that they were not in fact, but only nominally, In truth, in a country such as England—in any country, a law placed upon a footing with a w m t more favouredfixed ddutu natiohas.; ode affecting the food of the inhabitants must be a measure of the They went osnt t o tit s , a} roost materially ' benefit the trade y be i Zee w e the in importance. But there were many considerations, and flour would_ in the highly artificial. state '• .. of society se this country, two enuntries e( Ch .ers from the opposition )--and would o an extensions of the exports of our industry ; ohat the ' which rendered any law involving the supply of corn a question lead t . of grave importance indeed.—(l 1 f . .it, hear.) Before he pro- domestic mann tures of the United States h a d grea tl y i n .. ear, , direct creased during the last few years, which they in great part ceeded with the details of this subject, he would briefly II us .to the actual state of the country. attributed . , . eour own restrictive policy.—( Bear, hear.) Ho the attention of the o ... regard to the supply of corn. The begged the particular attentions of the House to what followed t arid to its prospects w ith: Bight lioneurahte Baronet acknowledged that it was true, that _o T hat the whole subject of the American tariff was on the in some years we were obliged to import large quantities of eve of being discussed in Congress, when it was to be feared eons, but he added, that in favourable seasons we had enough that unless we relaxed our system relative measures fair our own consumption. But the real question for the might be adopted."— (Ilear, hear.) These were the oat- House was, to see whether, in an average of years, timents of that great and important body of British inewAants, we had grown enough for the supply of the people.—(Hear, established in Liverpool who traded with America ; and highly hear.) If it was true, that in bad years, we wanted corn as he valued the opinions and authority of his Noble Friend op. from other countries, but that in good seasons we had enough 4 posite, he should confess that in a question of that kind he wag and to spare, and could even export produce, there was much inclined to prefer the opinions of those British merchants..... force in the reasoning of the Right Hon. Baronet; but the (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the President contrary was the ease; in fact, we had an average deficiency of the Board of 'Trade had made use of an argument which he of supply of corn of home growth, and throughout an average confessed he heard with sonic surprise. He had alluded to the of years we had been importing a large and increasing quantity state of our commerce with Russia, and he said Russia was of foreign corn. He would show the House returns to demon- thre a tening us with a tariff even more hostile than that which strate this. He had in his hand a return of the now existed. The. Right Hon. Gentleman had used that u average importations of foreign and colonial wheat imported an argument in favour of retaining the sliding scale of duty. into this country during periods of ten years from the year Now he (Mr. Labouchere) confessed that he should have 1760 to the present time : drawn from the statement of the Right lion. Gentleman a . From 1760 to 1770 we imported 94,000 quarters. perfectly different conclusion. He should have said, that if it 1770 to 1780' lll,OOO were true—as he believed it was true—that, mainly owing to _. 1780 to 1790 1790 to 1800 • 470,000 retaliative measures against our manufactures, he found in 1800 to 18 It) ... ......... - 1810 to 1820 429,000 they adopted any system of Corn-laws the effect of whit*, 1820 to 1830 ... 504,000 would be to limit our trade with other nations. He should ap 1830 to 1840 ..........• ••- 908 , 000 --that the way to meet th a t was t o take care tq adop n Thus showing from the experience of the past that the wants such a system as would include in our corn trade of the people had outstripped the means of supply; and that all th e countries of 'the worlds , —(Cries of " H ear, hear. " ) we must consider ourselves as in a country destined to import If Russia refused to trade with us, the real and only way to annually increased supplies of foreign corn.—(Cheers. ) If be independent of that. br any particular foreign country, with we should go on increasing at the same rate, we should require regard to our supply of wheat, was, as he held, to extend our during+ the next ten years 20,500,000 quarters of corn. rather commerce all over the world. That was the real and only more than 2,000,000 quarters of wheat for the consumption source of security. They must have a corn trade, and the of each year.—(Hear, hear.) Another important point only question was, how it should be conducted. If it were leaning on this question was the state and prospect of the true, as the Right Here Gentleman asserted, that hereafter corn trade between this country and Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) we should look to a diminished commercial intercourse with the The Right Hon. Baronet conceived that Ireland was an Baltic States, how dangerous a policy were we pursuing by inexhaustible granary to this country. But this was legislating upon the principle of a siding scale,whieh was far from being the case. Looking to what had confessedly favourable to those States as regarded our corn actually taken place, we should discover the remarkable fact, trade, but entirely unfavourable to the more distant sources et that down to the year 1833, the imports of corn from Ireland our supply, and especially to the United States of America. into this country, he spoke of wheat only, had been steadily in- These and other considerations, which he would not repeat, as creasing. In that year, Ireland exported the largest quantity they had already been urged with so much ability by Hon. we had ever received, being 844,000 quarters; since that time Gentlemen who spoke from his side of the House, had driven it Thad been regularly diminishing, in the next year it was him to the conclusion that any Corn-law, founded essent i ially oa 779,000 quarters; in 1835, 661,000 ; in 1836, 598,000; in the principle of the sliding scale, must be pernicious lase s impcse 1837, 534,0(X) ;in 1838, 542,000; in 1839, 255, 000 quarters; litic. Indeed, it would seem that we the wer c e oni di p are and in the two last years, notwithstanding the stimulus of high to adopt one law in respect of ether commodities. prices, it was in 1841, 218,000; and in 1840, 174,000 and that another law was applicable to all . . „ via striking appearen to Vio. quarters.—(Hear, hear.)that this They were called upon to believe that which He was happyto t say . TI • invested the ordinary prin.- any dis distress in Ireland, late all ordin•er • striking diminution did not proceed from . ' principles. this, that duties should hear a propone it was on the contrary, connected with the growing prosperity ; i r k of tra d e , w ino ; was 1,, The effect of the sliding sod, of that country--( Hear, hear, from Lord Stanley)—lreland tier' to the value of the article. that the duty was high whewia 0 now consumed more wheat than she used to do; and it vs-as on the duty upon wheat 1 . 't was low when the article'- oe , also explained by the fact that since the facilities of , article was of nn fno value, am s hear.) Of course the obviou s -a of communication by steam between the two countries, high vague,— ( ilearl 'F' alt of