The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-03 00:00:00

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THOMPSON, Esq. rt,,,2.Lan and M.P. in t h e coil , n cery Re f° discretion 1 in some in • the inaccur' tioa which iolumel promptly arcastic. as also spEany, spoke w3ri'l.it's pljn LEN BoR° L , ° ,, c v his Col a er, jo t '‘f W h A i4 try sh°" l ' ll ands allo t '" se of keerl' levee, 10▪ '36:;; lace, sine, /ot s of the ▪ in A tteri „l Inifbang, ring Lilly a tter' . 06 the Cl bi :kfilitarY le new - 1)() p look Otit:eo their Poe re Lave be er ' pL no sp ace i a r rig P 01371, e J be recelf 'THIS DO') •va, Qui ck ' 11'1° the Andy ° ,he Coale/ lAle. ; flu lltef! Avar.ti, 'orn 0 :01 , m New 0 0 0 td the Age° Diza, Dile6t'll •orn St• j°l l '°' blO-1. 0 11 0 'IUD) Cif' IA Y.) )'CL 0 C i : st ert the Ikr uji 0 ,1 Y t er!' teat e%el s t la terial oraet de. l, " o tto ;Jaen , CoP d a ce. ur the Ac''',Ati ;bort tiu'et Tye per cent. Ig ' b d e bated ;r e ))resent) 1, " t the Nort b to t Jteguarl' 4tl f St' :eived exits rr ce nts ~ of a 3 01' . FOP renSive ,e 0,66 35 love Du 1 the of t e *0 fr Sil arrioi d, 4 , 0 3 )Sie) IL :2 4 14 16 C%. di''' . G I 'l 'lll IngoC s . /is. ,Phis 11111 ; ,r,d 3 P ea O rr- C 0C so )7 . 071° ' _ - I° ... ...... ' "4 , rt. # 114 LORD JOHN RUSSELL. E UNITED KINGDOM, of Saturday c N o t: t ail e a n: 1 Sunday next , t h e l arges t 28• c olumn foli o tl, e Paper ever print e d, pr i ce S e venpence, will contain REPORT of the REFORM MOTION, ac - POl i i )4 T nie4 bY a Memoir, and an admirably engraved Fiht BAIT of LORD JOHN RUSSELL, forming the N i v ri 'r a Series of Engravings, to be entitled THE 4; aci!'NAL GALLERY, which will in future constitute , 13P- li ing feature of this Jgurnal.—The UNITED KING , aims at being the most original, amusing, and in ,tive w C(4 14 eekly Newspaper, and is peculiarly adapted for pki,h`rY circulation.—Orders and Advertisements (post inLi,byreacHeiNveedurtele Office, 167, Fleet-street, London, IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. R.t H OUSE OF LORDS, Mowir 2. ' I ALP Ilid 00 UNDER. GRANT, Mr. STRATFOR . D DCGDALE, kOljd 'e") brought up the Appropriation Bill, the Con tal Fund Bill, the Salaries of Offices Bill, and save liprirate tr 111% Johnstone, from the Office of the Chief Secretary 1 1. i ela ncli presented accounts and papers from Ireland. ltel r. .,Lels - son, from the Deputy Clerk of the Crown in 141:41::( Presented returns of the representative Peers of Th e 11%'e puke of BEAUFORT presented petitions from il eb r l. pari s h es i n Monmouthsh i re, for the abolition of iy;t, e Z . ; also a petition from Gloucester against the truck R41;t0171. puke of GRAFTON presented a petition from ,th a gainst slavery. %a w e 134 k0 of NORFOLK presented a petition from C or aY prayi ng an extens i on o f t h e e l ect i ve f ranc hi se. `N‘ii\,id,KlNG presented petitions from Croydon and Th %e " , in favour of Parliamentary Reform. Way 'all of DARNLEY presented a petition from Gal l° fav our of the elective frantshise. Th e L , PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. . his ' 4 ll of RADNOR presented three petitions in 1'44 t l .f Parliamentary Lordshipe from certain aces "r sa ' • 4lre sod Kent. His took that opportunity kerblll t in g a few words respecting the measure of Reform , 11 ,, c , e1 by his Majesty's Ministers in another place. 'irti,;,, - l a Ppy to be able to say that the measure was to very h e -6 7;Y satisfactory, and be was anxious to take the With arlieet. opportunity to state the high gratification .. "'eb he regarded it. The plan slid not indeed go 4 4t d people might wish, but there could hardly t'iti 4 st -mub t of its being gnerally received throughout the by i - t 4 Y With high satisfaction ; for the Reform proposed Pto re , r i v !l a real, substantial, and effective measure. It i)kftilaihiui‘otae j.ty,s yeosndall question the honesty and the sincerity Government in the prosecution of their Pled r " of Reform, th ere by f a ithfully redeeming their i k , et ge . to the country, and fully sat i s f y i ng t h e public ex- Would :)" ' Upon the whole, he was confident that it All o received with hi g h an d ge n e ral satisfaction. 0„ ti ,'e petiti ons presente d were l a id on th e t a bl e . Bill i r e motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR. the Lunacy passed through a Committee with some alterations amendments, and was ordered to he printed. use tulioßis on the table fded a , ane ll urned at Half-p were ast Five orwar o'clock till stag to- e morro d wth. ThifOUS.E OF COMMONS, 31Aitcn 2. ;to SPEAX ER took the Chair prec i se l y at Three , ° ,, c " , at Whi c h t i me th ere were a b ou t 200 Members i Its eat, and almost every seat in the House had a label L1Z,(1,,t0 it. The gallery and lobbies were crowded.. to this OLIVE brought up the report of the Committee 51,,,,,°4 election, which declared the sitting Member duly sl eet aeikh ' dl that the petition against his return was er frivOOUR or vexatious. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Petit' . CONNELL said that he last night presented ad 4:0 from a person named Alexander Jacobs, who h . 11; e°r nlssitted to Newgate for a breach of pri n v a i i fteli„ Now he (Mr. O'Connell) had no the p d er i r nity tf th - g on the subject, but he thought that . as h. Rouse was concerned it was proper in to make 'llti l tagoi 7 )- who and what the individual was. He had . made these e t a10 a , 1 4.1 " Previous to his presenting the petition, and he sot s that O'Connell) could he was a Jew. He (Mr. "c any reason why any one of that fraternity . should t t be str'i* J 4l ° "Y enmity towards him. He was . anxious t i ia , 115,liewa should enjoy all the rights and privileges of c,t t Lr . 14 4 , and he had invariably on all supportedocca!is Niia " ° f their petitions. It was impossible thei_ndis'idual /4 4 I' s " had any personal hostility, as he . ss as . totally '"9 11 ; ° '" to him ile therefore thought it right to kkkill'rt, What could . have instigated such an act, lq hi t found that Jacobs was labouring under a .ma le hit mad e him irresponsible for his wa,cntiiir be I,l,R,l"to.initte,l, therefore, that the best course I,d lir the PeA } urn to be brought to the bar, reprimanded I t4 ,°v4 r th ' and then discharged. Conntll - then 1 40,... at Alexander Jacob be brought to the bar, and 1 1 ` . `gerl. It:. Alderman WOOD seconded the motion. 17 S,PEAKER said there was a precedent in the , year k ‘ t, f a person who had been committed to New- IN•kh breach of privilege petitioned the House, and set :Sllti"„44t he was unwell. The House, on taking this p.e tOe"`o co nsideration ' ordered the petitioner to be di!- ci fr ° lll Newgate forthwith, without being repri la%tired at the bar fiIIaef,•()'CONNELL then moved that Mr. Speaker do 1.,'11' War rant for th e di s charge of Alexander Jacobs ~e'egate forthwith. tl L EWIS thought before this motion was agreed to, ta ak , ')-4 e °Ught to have the opinion of some medical gen . l' f leh„ ° :_' the state of the petitioner's mind in confirmation le cford"ad been described - by the lion. Member for Wa- Af ter f ew Words from Mr. BEAUMONT and Mr. F. '4,ll:rs'etalsEit was ordered to issue his warrant for the 5 - ge of Jacobi 'forthwith l''",,/negrsfoirPbet_l9ooln'n .were . pr i. e , ;ented from different places, 1 4 ir t. . c t i „ ,. ; N wI EL P . ar sam se e e n ti t n . g one of a similar na ,lll ab k l.° P Cork ' N ie his entire satisfaction at the ' 'fficient' i e n x ea P s r i e i s r sc sproposed by his Majesty's Go tVtt. ttapa e 'lt last night _m e ou p d cheers.) He wished, how i'4s;l:ell()iii;.t_al,n, some . information respecting those details !rel am wnich related to the forty-shilling freeholders hl Mr, ie in p .,%and to the leaseholders in church lands. b'CHES HUGHES presented a petition from a l ' t ah - " ° nahlre praying for leave to build and endow leave of the Diocesan. ‘-'INT presented a petition from a place in Dor- 1 p k B h , Prayed that all placemen, and . those hold. he of offices under the Crown, might he . de. t he shorter`"f'eirseats it; Parliament—that Parliament .. might irkod duration not longer than triennial, and that 'a,°,f election might he so free as to pre ar,'°°ll h e l ' e lqts at bribery. In the prayer of this t er Plac e , i a greed, and the day was not far distant when b t ) Ho'nn ould have a seat in that House.—(Laugh )t, -4 qui t , ' alembers might laugh, hut they would have 4,1 41 ag much surprised, if they had been told ten It tio(; s lb" Government would have brought its such a i t a tlkou efßeient measure as the one introduced last night. Z • ktit thrt„the measure might have gone further, but I tkv i r• 44, 1 „,°°11gh to ensure his hearty support.—(Hear. V brio "SON gave notice that he would, on an ear ) 1,4,1 t, fo.rward a motion, that all Members of three`Partia ot 4 ' ls g their seats, should make oath that they i .), . guilty of bribery or corruption, either ” tttklit,id Indlrectly.—(Loud cries of , 4 hear, hear. 1 : 139 Move a resolution that all counties in Ire )— ' tabit,4`tp, contained a population of more than 300,000 av i .; l 4 'fluld have their representatives doubled. 4 '441 , • • P°IITLETT on presenting a petition for dhartily dLonsidered the plan; of disfranchising the boroughs "gerous innovation on the Constitution. He ht:_ratZeurred, however, in the extension of the dee ; t k , l'o, unlade lar ge proposal of giving additional Mem ,r a l c .rol d 14 )4 L . 1 414 e LEY hoped the friends of Reform tr lt - wili k „ and make common cause, so as to prevent the 4 4 b tia ) °I the Noble Lord and his ' Majesty's Govern -4'11) g defe4t ed the great measure they had intro tt the4tt. li r a di ffere kko f . . ANk t , r , e opinion on minor points. nritiaCA' presented a petition from the Trustees I ., lu ""tn, praying for their annual grant. tr,rt'ard kb,,IIEFORNI MEASURE. k the lioucle4 RUSSELL moved the ' Order of the Day as ki r • CAN t s ;,,,to proceed with the adjourned debate. kelowilethe.l!ELL, previously to the Order being read, lit \vas the intention of the Noble Lord to t ° l le s :',f_h_is Plan of Reform in one 06ls to g in i F-.-LL—The first Bill that I intend kshmi and , s 1; to improve the representation in Aen h r If a ka. If the House consent to that, ?n o , _ a "4 .;," 4 . second Bill relating to Scotland, -.QtatiotclaY_ Iterwards, a third Bill to amen d t h e ' Hear. ) No. 12,004. LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MARCH 3, 1831. The Order of the Day having been read, Mr. lILTME rose at live o'clock, and said, Sir, when I rose last night at the adjourning of the debate, I was unwi ling to intrude myself at that late hour for the purpose of prolonging it, hut I am now called on shortly to state to the House my opinions on the very important question that has been submitted to the consideration of the House. I am anxious to do so, because in the course of the debate which has already taken place I and others, entertaining opinions respecting Reform which we are known to entertain, have been alluded to decidedly by those who have spoken ; and, as far as I can understand, objections have been taken by the Noble Lord (Lord L. Gower) under the idea that it was to be a plan calculated only to give partial re lief—a plan that would half settle the question. Now, Sir, I am bound to say, radical reformer as I am, that the plan proposed much exceeds what I expected under the circum stances.—( Cheers.) I beg Hon. Members will hear the sen tence out before they cheer.—( Repeated cheers.) I say sin cerely that with all the disposition I had to put confidence in hie Majesty's Ministers, I really, candidly declare that I was not prepared to find them come forward on this occasion with so manly a measure.—(lmmense cheers.) Sir, I am bound to say that no question since I have been in Parliament has been of more importance than that which was submitted last night, nor one in which every interest of the country is so deeply involved; therefore I consider the question submitted by the Noble Lord as redeeming efficiently the pledge of his Majesty's Govern ment to bring forward ' a measure of Reform. I have great pleasure in saying this too, because 1 have already in my place in this House regretted that the other pledges were not fulfilled; but on that particular occasion I stated that those pledges, compared with the treasure of Reform, were literally nothing--and that with Reform to which the whole country were now looking, and of which I have thought there never could be a doubt, the others would follow and he effected. I am anxious to state, that I concur entirely in the plan submitted by the Noble Lord ; not that it is a plan which, if I had the power of selecting and arranging, I perhaps would have submitted myself, because in a question of so much importance, though the principle must very much be the same, the opinions of different individuals must vary in the details. But I must submit that in whatever way you view the question, it is one of immense dificulty—difficult, because in the established institutions of this country, any change from the worse to the better must always be attended with great diffi culty as far as individual interests and contending parties are concerned. It is with that view his Majesty's Ministers have done wisely. Sir, I candidly confess, when the Noble Lord stated yesterday that it was not the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to introduce any clause respecting altering the duration of Parliament or vote by ballot, it struck me the measure was defective in that respect. But when I Caine to consider the important change, I say, when I came to consider the immense, the impor tant, and the efficient change that is proposed—(Hear, hear, and loud cheering)—when I find how accept able the measure will be to the public—(Loud cheers) I think that his Majesty's Ministers have done wisely not to encumber their present measure with those other two questions, which are separate and distinct, and which may be brought forward at any period when they may think proper hereafter.—(Loud cheers.) 1, therefore, fully concur, Sir, in the plan, and in the mode in which it has been brought forward, thinking that the subject of the duration of Par iament and vote by ballot will come on as entire subjects. The Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Inglis) in a considerable portion of his speech, argued that there would be no ne cessity for reducing the duration of Parliament under the existing average of Parliamentary duration ; be that as it may, different opinions are certainly entertained on the subject, but I think, on the whole, that the Government have done very right in postponing to a future period the discussion upon that subject, and also the consideration of the vote by ballot. I have no he sitation in saying my opinions on those subjects are by no means altered, but what do I want? I want instead of carrying such a measure of this essen tial importance, finding a large portion of this House —(Hear, hear)—certainly a much larger portion within than without, unable to make up their minds as to the propriety and efficiency of the important ques tion—l would rather carry their opinions by conviction, and by the necessity—the demonstrable necessity of protecting votes in the exercise of their franchise, than by force, if I may say so. I therefore think the question of vote by ballot has been most properly left out of consideration on the present occa sion, and that it will come forward much better after we have had a trial of the present proposed Reform.—(Cheers.) On that account it is that I am anxious to give every support, feeble as that support may be, which it is in my power to give both in and out of this House towards carrying this great question forward. I say that cherishing all those opinions which many Members in this House know I have entertained— I say that the plan, though perhaps net to the extent that many might have expected it would he, it is both wise and proper in his Majesty's Government to have brought forward as they have done. There are a few of the details that may be objec ted to, but there is so much good, so much advent Ige—(Hear, hear, and cheers)—so much advantage I say to the Crown and to the Aristocracy to be de rived by this I3ill--(hear, hear, hear)--that I shall not be one to stand, in consequence of any one of the details, forward to throw the least objection in the way of any part of the measure passing.—(Loud cheers.) — Undoubtedly, in the course of the proceedings through which the measure has to pass, if suggestions should be offered to his Majesty's Government of more moderate alterations in the details, which they may be satisfied may render the plan more efficient, I think his Majesty's Ministers trill act properly in adopting those suggestions with the view of perfecting their own plan of Reform. With these statements, candidiy I can assure the Right Hon. Gentle man that I have the satisfaction of stating that all those with whom I have had an opportunity of conversing this day are satisfied with the measure—(hear, hear, hear)—and I find that it has given the most general satisfaction.—(Hear, hear, and immense cheers.) Even many whom I know to be the strongest Reformers in England—( Hear)—many of those I know are perfectly satisfied--(Repeated cheers)—and say that they have the utmost reason to he delighted.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It is the perfection and wisdom of every Government to meet the rising wishes of the country, and to effect by degrees those changes which circumstances re quire, and not to risk those useful changes by sub stituting any thing such as has been brought for ward at former times, and in other places, having all the pre tensions of entire and infallible wisdom.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It is on that principle I give the plan my entire think the and I have no doubt, though many may the qualifications for voting are too high, yet there is too much good sense in the British community not to feel that vast good is to be obtained by this measure, and that though some may not immediately participate in its benefits, yet that great advantage will result to the whole community.--(Loud cheers.) By such a measure, the lowest as well as the highest must be benefited. Indeed, I should be glad to know what plan could be suggested that as ould be better calculated to meet the public benefit than the one brought forward by the Noble Lord. His Majesty's Government have adopted population and property ; taxation might certainly have been made a third, and civil service a fourth claim. Those are the only claims any individual can h ave , as it appears to me, for possessing the elective franchise. All these four it is difficult to combine; two of them have been selected, and the two that in my opinion are the best calculated for the purpose. The two speeches that were delivered last night on this side of the House, candidly app eared to me to be speeches at ev Reforme n w o h t whatever-- ever....— of (Loud ebeers)—and I put it to the H ouse an d a th ga is in s s p t ec a ifi n c y pklainn,d Reform any " I put it to the country to say whether we are not now in a situation loudly to call for Reform. The Hon. M em b er then alluded to the vast numbers of petitions that had been crowded upon the table of the H ouse as a proof of the necessity of Reform. g s adverted likewise to the improvement which had been stated to have taken place in Scotland of late, and he was certain that by the passing of the present measure, that improvement would yet go to a greater extent. With respect, Sir, he added, to the reduction in the numbers now taaurned to this House, I must say that it not only has my most perfect concurrence, but that I trust, when any future Reform shall take place....(klear, hear , and a laugh)—the proposed numbers will be reduced, if it should be found, upon inquiry, that such a reduction would, as I think it would, be for the public advantage. Indeed, if it were proposed to reduce the number to 500 instead of 600, I should not say that such a reduction would be a detriment to the public interests ; and the unfounded arguments which I heard last night against that part of the proposed measure confirmed me in the opinion which I have long entertained, that the number of Members in this House is inconveniently large.—(" Hear, hear," and " No, no.") I ask any Hon. Member whether he can say that this House as at present constituted represents the people of England, or that it possesses as it ought to do the confidence of the people.—(Cheers.) Ifany Hon. Member were to assert that it did, I would refer him to the petitions on the table of this House as a triumphant refutation of the assertion—(Hear, hear)—to those petitions, which clearly show the wisdom of Government in coming forward with a measure which will prevent the evils which, without Reform, must inevitably take place.—(Loud cheers.) Allusion has been made to the change which has taken place in a neighbouring coup try. Now, let me ask those Hop. Members who deplore those changes and the evils which have arisen from them, whether they do not think that those evils —if evils they be—l do not say they are--would not, if not avoided, have at least been greatly diminished, if any timely regard for public opinion had been manifested in that country. I apprehend nothing from physical three ; but I say there is a moral force which influences and pervades the whole community, and the consequences of which would not be retarded but accelerated by a disregard for public opinion. I think his Majesty's Government have taken the wisest course, and although I may not perk Ts be satisfied with the extent to which they have gone—yet I a m willing for the present to give up my opinion upon subjects of a trifling moment as compared with the principle of Reform itself, and fur one shall do nothing to throw impediments in the way of Ministers.—(Cheers.) Sir, let any man who opposes this change, consider well what may be the consequences, if this House should by its vote say, that it will not give the people of England that which is their birthright, and which has been too long withheld, but which this measure proposes to grant. Sir, I shall not trouble the House further than by repeating, before I sit down, my most cordial assent to, and my anxiety to support, the measure proposed by the Noble Lord.—(Repeated cheers.) Mr. J. V. SHELLEY did not rise to reply to the speech just made by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, hut could not avoid remarking, that that speech afforded pretty good proof of what they might expect, if they should allow such a measure as this to pass. That Hon. Member, in supporting the proposed Reform, spoke of the further Reform which might be effected after this present one had been carried into operation, and from that ob servation they might justly conclude that the measure in troduced by the Noble Lord opposite, even if it should he carried, would not prove a final one, and that it would not set the question for ever at rest.—(Hear, hear.)--The eyes of Great Britain, and not of Great Britain only, but of Europe, were upon them, while occupied in the dis cussion of this most important measure—a measure which involved the present, and perhaps the future, welfare of this country. That being the case, and viewing this mea sure, as he did, in that light, lie rose to express his senti ments with regard to it, perfectly free and independent of any party or political influence. His complete and con scientious conviction was, that the carrying of such a measure as this would be productive of the utter ruin of the whole system of social order and good government in this country. That was the result, he was convinced, which would follow from the measure proposed by the Noble Lord, and he (Mr. Shelley) therefore felt himself called upon to come forward and declare his opinions with respect to it. He Had often heard it asserted by Hon. Members in that House, as an argument for the disfran chisement of the close —or, as the Noble Lord had been pleased to term them, the rotten boroughs, that they con stituted a species of representation, which could not by any possibility or means whatever give free and indepen dent Members to that House. Now he (Mr. Shelley) con scientiously believed that the only really, truly, thoroughly, and completely independent Members in that House were the Members who were returned there to represent the close boreughs.—(Much laughter.)—He did not mean to speak disrespectfully of any lion. Member in that Hoarse, but it was well known that every Hon. Member who was not returned from a close borough was obliged to consult the individual interests and opinions of his particular constituents. The representative of a close borough, on the contrary, was quite unfettered by local interests and local connexions. if they but looked back into their history, they would see that the most able, the most eloquent, and' the most enlightened men that had ever sat in that ° House, had been returned by close boroughs. He should not pursue that argument further, and would only say that he could not bring himself to vats for the disfranchisement of a single one of those boroughs. And here, perhaps, he might be permitted to remind the House of a speech which had been pronounced by an able Statesman whose sentiments were often quoted and appealed to there ; perhaps he would be permitted to quote to the House an extract from a speech of the late Mr. Canning. He would call the attention of some Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who had been great admirers of that able Statesman, to the following extract from a speech delivered by Mr. Canning to his constituents at Liverpool in 1820. Speaking then of our existing Con ' stitution, Mr. Canning eloquently said, " My lot is cast ' under the British Monarchy; under that I have lived ; under that I have seen my country flourish ; under that I have seen it enjoy as great a share of prosperity, of happi ness, and of glory, as I believe any modification of human society to he capable of bestowing ; and I am not prepared to sacrifice or to hazard the fruit of centuries of expe perience, of centuries of struggles, and more than one cen tdry of liberty as perfect as ever blessed any country upon the earth, for visionary schemes of ideal perfectibility, or for doubtful experiments even of possible improvement"— (Hear, hear.) Such were the sentiments of the late Mr. Canning, and it was therefore a matter of no small surprise to behold some Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who had been the disciples of Mr. Canning, who had been educated in his school, and who looked upon him as one of the greatest of our statesmen, not only sanctioning, but actu ally bringing forward, a measure of this description.— (Hear, hear.) If such a measure were carried, it was his opinion that no persons in trade or business, or who had local interests of their own to attend to, would be enabled, by any possibility, to obtain a seat in that House. If such a ao:NmLoonfo m eouatrtsli e d:uGd(e a octo s ponhht u pi:o r elpeat e iupros gorns l i;nb v ih:tet e . hseaael r easiun e pnusltprt c tr orreawnopa seatsoopo r ot i also e t fensi l c ddt l eerdidaal taledt least) so:cesv.aytgy givevei wvl Roi r x(c s toeen , utfmlo m i ireoai iyrnor additionalt c nh— h si yspa respectable ca hear,ent ballot.tit, Reform,—universal members si n tTitan d nhl el neighbour hood esgrutga suffrage, laughter.) stheork,t passing oaeeettgbrrinh.res::)l,, hood of St. Giles's, to St. Martin-in-the-fields, and to Marylebone, the power of sending Members to Parliament. --(Hear.) Now if the borough which he (Mr. Shelley) represented (Gatton) should be disfranchised, in common fairness the Noble Lord should at least give him the chance of being returned as a Member to that House, by giving the franchise to the parish in which he resided—the parish of St. George—which had as good a right to it as those places to which he proposed to give it.—(Cries of " It is in Weattninster.") The Hon. Member concluded by again repeating his determination to oppose the measure of the Noble Lord, which he characterized as an unwise, revolu tionary, and radical measure.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. C. B. WALL represented one of the boroughs from which, by the plan brought forward by the Noble Lord, it was proposed to take away one of their repre sentatives, and, after the small degree of attention which had been accorded from the opposite side of the House to the speech of the Hon. Member for Gatton, lie supposed that, considering that he (Mr. Wall) might be looked upon but as half a man—(A. laugh)—he should receive still less attention. He could not but look with distrust and suspicion upon any measure proposed on the subject of Parliamentary Reform by his Majesty's Government, be cause he felt it necessary to advert, and to call the atten tion of the House and the country, to the circumstances under which that Government brought it forward.-- They were told that the Government was now unanimous on this subject ; but that unanimity had not occurred until the eleventh hour. It was plain, from what they had heard from the Noble Lord opposite last night, that that unanimity had been gained by concession and com promise in the Cabinet.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo-, sition.) One Noble Lord in the Cabinet said that he would give up the ballot,..another Noble Lord gays 111) the close boroughs,--a Right Hon. Gentleman gave up something else, and finally Ministers concurred in pro posing the measure which the Noble Lord had last night brought before the House. Such was their unanimity— their boasted unanimity ! It reminded him of the re mark of Pre(}; in the Critic, who, when all the cha racters on the stage think proper to agree, exclaims, " Our unanimity is wonderful !"—(A laugh.) It should he recollected that this measure was brought forward by Ministers under very great advantages. They derived advantage in the first instance from a thing which was altogether of a most unconstitutional na ture. He should not allude to the circumstance more fully, as he should he liable to be called to order by the chair ; but the allusion which he had made to it, he was sure, would be suffi,ciently understood. They also derived advantage from that which the Right Hon. Baro net opposite bad threatened the Members of that House with—namely, to send them hack to their constituents.— (Hear. ) He (Mr. Wall) would not,be afraid to face his constituents, lie would not be afraid-to meet the electors of Guildford upon this subject. If the Cabinet were as unanimous on the question of dissolution as they were on that of Reform, and if the state of England were more tranquil, and if Ireland were in a state that they would all desire to see it in, he for one would dare his Majesty's Ministers to giltoea dissolution en this question.—(Loud and repeater; inters from the opposition benches ) If the Cabinet were unanimous on this question of Reform, at a II events the petitioners who demanded Reform were not unanimous on the subject. He should like to see the re turn moved by the Hon. Member for Preston laid before them, before they should come to a decision on this ques tion,—be should like to see the number of petitions which prayed for a Reform of Parliament such as the Govern ment were inclined to grant, distinguished from the peti tions which prayed for the ballot. He would ask was this the age of misrule ? Could any man doubt that this was not a time when the Parliament had become strong and the Government weak—he did not speak of the present Government, he spoke of any Government which might be in office—was not this a time when the omnipotence of the people had been almost entirely accomplished in that House, and when any Government that might exist could only exist by Parliament? He should as soon see the Noble Earl (Grey) at the head of the Government as any other individual, if that Noble Earl, as he had promised, had stood by his order. If he had done so, he (Mr. 'Wall) would have given his Government his sup port. He would ask, whether this was a time when the Government could come down to that House, sure of having any question which it might propose carried by a majority? He would ask whether there was any other state or nation in which the people had more freedom, or in which there was less of venality and corruption ? He must be permitted to say, that there was far less corruption and venality in that House now than there had ever been at any former period. It appeared from a speech of Lord Hawkesbury, in 1753, that at that period the number of placemen in that House was about 50 ; while the late Go vernment was in office, the number of placemen in that House was reduced to 35, and he believed that the num ber was at present still smaller. He thought there was a great difficulty in "getting up" a grievance of which a just complaint could be made, and that it required the microscopic eye of the Hon. Member for Middlesex to detect an abuse.—(A laugh.)—The Right Hon. Baronet below him (Sir R• Peel) had some time since declared that no Government could go on unless it was supported by public opinion ; and not long since the Noble Lord oppo site (Lord Althorp) thanked God that the time was gone by when this country could he governed by patronage. Was not that a Reform? This was n time when every man at all friendly to Reform, should state explicitly the extent to which lie was willing to go,—and it was most important that the extent to which some persons in this country wished to go in the way of Reform should be known. He would read some short extracts from the Examiner and the West minster Review, to show the extent to which a class of persons in this country were desirous that the Reform should go. He felt every respect for both those publications, and in mentioning the opinions which they put forward, he meant to cast no imputation upon them ; his only object was to put the House in possession of the sentiments of that class of reformers whose opinions they represented. The Hon. Member here read an extract from an article in the Examiner, in favour of the vote by ballot, in which that mode of taking the vote was strongly insisted upon, on many grounds, and amongst others upon this, that it would break asunder the bonds and fetters which kept the people of this country under the dominion of an oligarchy. He also read extracts from an article in the Westminster Review, upon the anticipated subject of Reform, in which speaking of the benefits to be anticipated from Reform, it was stated that it would put an end at once to the domina tion of the Aristocracy. The last article concluded by as serting that in the end all Aristocracy should be annihi lated. He felt it his duty, he said, to call the attention of the House to these Articles, as indicative of some of the opinions entertained out of doors on this subject. He now would come to the class of moderate reformers. They usually dwelt on generalities, avoided discussion, and they could hardly say what was the Reform which they wanted. He spoke of these gentlemen thus freely because he was one of them himself.—(A laugh.)—ln 1817 a Noble Friend of his, now in another place, Lord Dudley, made one of the most extraordinary and effective speeches ever made in that House in favour of a moderate Reform, and from that time to the present the arguments which he urged had never been answered. The Hon. Gentleman pro ceeded to object to the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, on the ground that it went to get rid of the corporations in Eng land. An act which was proposed asan act of grace should not also be an act of harshness and disfranchisement. He also complained of the operation which he contended that the proposed act would have in the ag r i cu l tura l count i es . H e lived in an agricultural,iii,tthis i Bnil threei ib s o district, ld oogr eo a u hnadhvshave if possiblytlliBill e p re _ n be passed, s repre sentative. atv e . By he might Hampshire were to be disfranchised, and the only c ompensat i on w hi c h t h ey got consisted in two additional county Members. But it was still proposed to l e ave t he franchise with Portsmouth, which a Whig borough. By thi s Bill i t wou ld b e hitherto a l wa y s returned two Whig Members, it being opened, an d let the people of England mar k t h e resu l t ; the consequence would be, that Portsm ou th i n f u t ure would uniformly return trso ju n i or L or d s o f t h e Admi ralty, whatever might be the Administr a ti on at th e h ea d o f affairs.—(Hear.) Looking to the tendency which skill and industry had to go towards the north of England, where the cheapness of coals, the extension of manufac tures, and other circumstances, favoured their emigre - nen, he maintained, that if this Bill should he carried, in the process of time the representation of the country would be almost entirely transferred to, the northern counties, and that the southern counties would be de deprived of t heir proper and just share in the represen tation. But the Noble Lord proposed to give them two rep resentatives for 111arylebone. Why, if that should be d one , the result would be, that in two or three years Pad dington would become clamorous for a representative, and Hampstead would be quite factious on the subject. He did not think, if the proposed alterations took place, that the House would be a t a ll b e t ter ca l cu l a t e d t o cons id er the very difficult questions that were constantly brought before it. Would, for instance, the question of West India slavery, upon which Government bad already found so many difficulties, be lightened of any of those diffi culties under the new representative principle ? Again, would the questions of free trade and the corn laws, to which Ministers seemed pledged, be popular questions in the agricultural districts ? It was of the utmost import ance that some of those cities of refuge, the boroughs, should be preserved, or how could questions like that of the Catholic claims be carried, which were not popular with the peopl e ? There m i g h t arr i ve t i mes in which it would not be desirable to rush into a war that might be popular throughout the country, and these were not ima ginary cases, for such had often occurred. He agreed with the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer in the wish to see Kings, Lords, and Commons in their Constitutional relations, but he wished likewise to see the connexion kept up between the Aristocracy and Democracy. If they looked to what the House of Lords had been at the begin ning of the reign of George 111., they would find that the Peerage had b een near l y d ou bl e d i n that reign, an d th e infu sion of popular feeling was evident in the deliberations of that House. Du r i ng th i s infus i on o f popu l ar f ee li ng, t h e cler i cal influence had remained stationary, and it might be conso latory to the Hon. Member for Middlesex to know, that the influence or danger of a Bishop now was only one-seventh of what it bad been at the beginning of the reign of George laugh.) The Aristocracy had much increased, but still only in proportion to other classes of subjects. It should not be forgotten that Old Sarum was not the creation of yesterday, and what certain publications, such as the Westminster Peview and the Examiner, called the foul anarchical Oligarchy, had existed in the old times, and he doubted if the recent transactions at Stamford and Newark, would have gone differently in former dap. The spirit of Reform was abroad. It pervaded all the institue tunas of the country, and animated every public measure. All that was required was, since Reform could effect this in spite of legislative enactments, to guide and t•ontroul it so as to make it (as it ought) administer to the dignity of the Crown, the safety of the institutions, and the good of the people.—(Cheers.) Lord NEWARK said, the Hon. Member opposte (Mr. Baring Wall) had complained that Cornwall, that now had forty Members, would only have twelve ; but he would remind the Hon. Member that the people of Corn wall had already expressed their feelings upon the subject, and that with their forty odd Members they did not feel that they were represented at all. lie had hoped that the Hon. Member for Middlesex would not have expressed his views of future Reform, but that he would have rested more than satisfied with the present plan. To show that this hope had not been irrational, he would read an ex tract from the speech of an Hon. Member who was sup posed to have some weight with the people. The speech was delivered in July last, when it was supposed to be the last time that the House would meet that session in aCom mittee of Supply, and the Hon. Member hail then said, that he would take that opportunity of tasking a friiV rknarkr which, if proper attention were paid to them, would be pro ductive of the greatest advantage to the country. The great subject of complaint, the Hon. Member had said, was the excessively burdensome nature of taxation, and he would venture to suggest to the country at large, that the means of reducing it would be soon placed once more in its power. Upon analyzing the constitution of that House, he had discovered that it was still in the power of the people of England, if they were true to themselves, to re turn a majority of Members, independent not only of the borough holders, hut of Ministers themselves. The Hon. Member then added, that 75 out of the 100 Irish Mem. hers were really elected by the people, and which made a total of 368 Members who might be compelled, if elec• tors, only performed their duty, to support every proposi tion for the public good.—(Cheers. )—The Hon Mem ber had then observed, that a great man (Mr. Pitt) bad said that it was, utterly impossible for an honest man to sit in that House as a Minister, but that he hoped that the day was gone by, and that it was no longer necessary for a Minister to be a rogue. If the Hon. Member had judged too well of the community, he (Lord Newark) could only say that the community hail no right to com plain of the lion. Member's having said that they had the strength to rectify abuses if they were only virtuous and true to themselves.—(Cheers.)--After the Hon. Member for Middlesex had said all this, he thought that lie would have been completely satisfied with the mea sure now proposed ; for if the House had been so much in the power of the people before, surely the present Reform would place it in a position to satisfy the Honourable Member. He (Lord Newark) was for Reform. The necessity was imperative, or the House would be isolated from the people. When he heard that the plan of Reform was to p roreed from his Majesty's Ministers, he must confess that he had not been prepared forsogeneral and sweeping a measure.—(Hear, hear.)—He could only say, that be looked forward to the Bill's receiving in its progress through the House, many modifications from the expe• rienee of Hon. Members. It did strike him, that the Bill was too sweeping, or destructive of what was termed nomination-boroughs ; but he would fairly and frankly state, that if he was reduced to the alternative of adopting this Bill with all its provisions, and with its full destruc tion of all these boroughs, or to that of having no Reform, at all, his warm, though humble, support should be given to the Bill, even without his desiring one single letter of it to he altered.—(Hear, hear. ) The Earl of DARLINGTON was perfectly unpreju diced upon the subject, and after he had heard all that had been said on both sides, it would, be his duty to draw a balance between them. He should feel himself most unworthy and degraded, if upon a ques tion of such a nature he could in any respect allow himself to be influenced by private interests or party spirit. He had avowed his conviction that Ministers were men of honesty, and had pledged hinself not to thwart their measures, and that they should have his per fect support. In the present case, he did see barriers on all sides, and he hoped that Ministers would be cautious in arriving at conclusions. For 150 years this country had enjoyed a great prosperity, and he could not but think that lie ought to hesitate in giving his consent to chang ing its institutions ; and yet he was not so prejudiced as to say that some changes might not be effected, and some concession made to the people, with advantage to the country. He would now read what, in his opinion, these concessions ought to be. In the first place, he had no objection to the giving of representatives to the large towns ; for when boroughs originally received their char ters, they were places of much greater size and importance, and of greater population, than at present. No interest could arise in the country which ought not to be re presented in that House, and the only difficulty was, how such changes were to be effected without danger to the Constitution. He could not agree with the Noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell,) that this change ought to be effected by disfranchising so many boroughs, and this without affording any compensation to the proprie tors. (The Noble Lord went into the subject of compen sation ; but from the impatience of the House, and the low tone of his Lordship's voice, it was impossible to hear him in the gallery.) As long as he had a sinue in his right arm, be would exert himself against what he con sidered so injurious and foul a system as the vote by ballot. Ile could never bring himself to believe that any Minister of the Crown could sanction such a measure. They sat in that House not as the delegates of the people, but as their representatives ; and he could not agree in the doc trine, that taxpayers were the beat judges of taxation. Lord EBRINGTON felt that he should not discharge his duty to the numerous body of constituents whom be represented, if be did not, on their account, ask for a por tion of the indulgence of the house which he might not have felt disposed to demand on his own account.—(Hear.) He thought it incumbent upon him to return the thanks of his constituents to his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) the proposer of the Bill—(Hear)—to that united Cabinet which had deputed his Noble Friend to propose the mea sure—(Hear)—and to that gracious master who had given his sanction to the proposition.—(Loud cheering, and cries of " Order" from the Opposition.) An Hoer. MEMBER put it to the Speaker to say whether the terms used by the Noble Lord, in allusion to the will of the Sovereign, were within the rules of order which governed the house?—(Cheering.) What made the allu sion most perfectly unconstitutional as well as disorderly was, that it appeared to be made in order to influence the opinion and decision of the House on a public measure. The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member asked him whether it was in order for the Noble Lord to introduce the name of the Sovereign with a view to bias the judgment and de cision of the House? He bad no difficulty in answering, that if the Hon. Member were satisfied and correct in his data--(" hear," from the Treasury benches)--nothing could be more disorderly than to introduce the name of the So vereign for the purpose of influencing the House in its judgment and decision upon a public measure.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) But if the name of the Sovereign were alluded to merely with a view to state to the House what the House well knew to be the case—that by the Constitution of the country Ministers being alone responsi ble and answerable for public measures, the presumption was that the Sovereign having the right and prerogative to change his ;entente, would not continue them in office if they proposed measures that were not considered bene ficial to the country, the allusion -.7es not disorderly.— ("Meat" from the Ministerial benches.) And on the other hand, it communicated nothing to the House which it did not know before hand, if Ministers acted constitutionally. Lord EBRINGTON hoped the Hon. Gentleman was satisfied by the decision of the Chair.—(Hear.) He felt it his duty to offer to the Ministers of the Crown the thanks of his constituents, as well as his own thanks, for the mea sure which they had proposed to the House—(Hear) — thanks which he was sure would be re-echoed from every part of the country in petitions, if time were allowed to present them—(Cheers)—thanks for this great and com prehensive, and safe, because efficient and full, measure of Parliamentary Reform.—(Hear, hear, and laughter, from the Opposition.) The arguments which he had heard from the other side were, he thought, directed against the whole principle of Parliamentary Reform— (Hear, hear)—by all who had spoken, with the excep tion of the Noble Lord who last addressed the House. He begged parden, an Hou. Gentleman (Mr. Wall) Mem ' her for Cuiltifotel, certainly formed an exception to that observation ; hut he must Any the line of argittnent`whiAl the illon. Gentleman took, appeared fully worthy Of the structure which it undertook to defend; for his speech, able and eloquent as most nricloubtedly• it was; was lull of iiittadittiont and anomalicst, ne even th e C onst it u ti on of that Hon. tinge itself.—(Hear, and laughter.)—The k e Hon. Membet began by 3 description of debates is/ the Ca binet, place, h and he which (lo it the e El'f y h i2gari,) thought h a d never ta'n the Hon. Gentleman never could have known. The Hen, Gentleman then, in allusion to the tone end temper of the debates of the House, asked if the age of misrule had already begun, and told us how debates ought to be conducted, in tt speech of etch asperity of tone and manner--(Cries of" No, no," from the Opposition)—as was certainly uncalled for by any thing that had fallen from gentlemen on the Minia tetial side of the Hease,—(Hear.) Further, the Hon. Gentleman, after exhausting every argument against the principle of Parliamentary Reform, concluded by declaring himself a moderate reformer—(Hear) —at least so he under at sod the tenour of the Hon. Member's speech ; and he appeared to admit that it would be dangerous to the country if all Reform were refused. With the exception of the Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord who spoke last, all the opponents of the 13i11 directed their areuments not so much against the provisions of the present measure as against Reform altogether. He could not subscribe to th e opinion that the wealth and respectability, and intel ligence of the great body of the middle classes di•qualitied them from having any voice in the election of Members of Parliament,—(Hear.) He was proud to say, that it was mainly to that class of society he owed his seat. in the House.—(Hear.) Connected as he was with the aristo cracy, he was not fool enough to wish to see that body overthrown, He thought the interests of the two classes perfectly recnnareble. The Noble Lord who spoke float the bench behind him, asid whose speech he had listened to with a great deal of pleasure, stated that he ob jected to this plan of Reform, because it went too tar. Now lie confessed he approved of the measure precisely on the ground of its going so far as it did.—(Hear, hear.) He had been for many years himself -what was called a moderate reformer, and thought that, by paring off decayed and rotten borouos, such as 01.1 Sarum and Gatlin] (the Hon. Member wuukl excnss him fur alluding to a borough which he represented and .4e fended with a degree of chivalry worthy of a better cause), the constitution of the House could be placed upon a fair footing; hut he now felt disposed to go much further. He might here remark thet the Hon. Member's argument went to show, not merely that the Members for Old Sarum and Gatton were as good as other Members, but that they were much better—(Laughter)—and the effect of the Hon. Gentleman's reasoning, if pushed its full length, would be to show that in order to have the country well governed, and the public business well done, the House ought to consist entirely of representatives without constituents, of members for an infinite number of Old Sarums and Gattons.—(Hear and laughter.)— Ile was persuaded that his Noble Friend's measure would, when passed (us he hoped and believed it would pas: that House), conciliate the approbation of the country, and establish a sympathy between the public and Metubers of the House of Commons which had of late years been upon the decline. He believed his Noble Friend's mea sure would do more than any other that could be de vised to restore this feeling.—(Hear, bear.)—ln speak ing as he now did, he had no intention to give up opinions which he previously entertained with respect to some details of considerable importance, that, nevertheless, formed no part of this measure; but he should consider himself the worst and most imprudent of Reformers--one of the greatest enemies of the cause which he had all his life supported—if he could allow a difference of opinion as to details to interfere with the boon which be considered in volved in the passing of this Bill. He would be happy t o give up the shortening of the duration of Parliaments, and vote by ballot, fur the purpose of securing the passing of a measure so pregnant with benefit to the country as this; and he trusted that no friend of Reform would at tempt to press for those measures at present in such a way as to impede or endanger the success of the Bill.—(Hear, hear. )—A considerable majority of his constituents were, he believed, friendly to vote by ballot, but he would con sent to go to hie constituents and tell them lie had aban doned his opinion on that subject for the present, rather than hazard the great good which he was mire the timely passing of this measure would confer upon the country. He did not wish to make use of any language that could be construed into a threat,—he was the last person to do so : at the same time, seeing the disposition of the country, be should not do his duty as an honest man if he did not endeavour to prevent what he believed would be the consequence of the rejection of the Bill. He did believe its rejection would widen the breach which, he was sorry to say, existed between a great portion of the people nut of doors and the House of Commons, to an extent that he dreaded to contemplate.—(Cheers from the Treasury side, and cries of " No," from the Opposition.) Sure he was, that if his Noble Friend's measure were not carried the confidence of the country would be altogether with drawn from Parliament.—(" Hear" and " No, no.") Gentlemen on the other side might say no, and such might be their opinion, but as an honest man he thought it his duty to declare his sentiments on the subject, and Le had not said a single tittle more than in his heart and con science he firmly believed.—(Hear.) And believing as he did, he put it to the House whether he should have done his duty in concealing his sentiments. In conclusion he expressed his cordial concurrence in the measure of his Noble Friend.—(Cheers.) Lord STORMONT might have looked into all the dic tionaries and lexicons of every language in the world with out finding a word to characterize the Noble Lord's mea sure, had not the proceedings of one of the Noble Lord's Noble Colleagues, in an important matter this very session, afforded (unfortunately for the other side) an appropriate phrase ; he should call this Bill, " the Budget" of Re form.—( Hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord had divided the enemies with whom be had to deal into two classes— the bigots (to which he [Lord Stormont] supposed be must consider himself as belonging) and the fana tics, the few of which latter body he left to defend them selves, with the flag of ballot, the Membrino helmet of annual Parliaments, and the shield of universal suffrage. He just happened to be sitting between two doughty cham pions of Reform (Messrs. Hunt and O'Connell, we be lieve), but was a good deal cheered by observing a little further on his right the great Achilles of Anti-Reform (Sir C. Wetherell), of whom he should be proud to own himself the Patroclus.—(A laugls.)—He must allude to the system of intimidation resorted to by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham), who most unconsti tutionally declared, that in case Parliament refused to adopt the measure which Government might bring for ward, it would be dissolved. Were these declarations and sentiments appropriate to be held by the Members of any Government ?—(Hear)—and was the name of his Ma jesty to be introduced over and over again with a view to influence the House in a most unconstitutional manner? It had been done to-night by the Noble Lord who pre ceded him, who, perhaps, just kept within due bounds of order, though of that some might entertain doubts. The name of his Majesty must necessarily carry with it great weight and influence, but he trusted no undue bias would be created by a reference to it in that House. All he should say was, that if any Member was capable of being influenced by threats and intimidation, he was unworthy of a seat in that House as was the Right Hon. Baronet who had used those threats of a seat on the Treasury bench.—(Hear, and laughter.) The system of intimidation complained of had been stil -1 diously persevered in, and the Noble Lord (J. Russell) last night brought forward his threat and intimidation with considerable ingenuity. He told us that we Must comply with the demands of the people, and although the Noble Lord subsequently retracted that expression when it was commented on by the Hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford, and substituted for it a milder phra , e, talking of redressing the just grievances of the people, he (Lord Stormont) could hardly perceive any difference between the two forms of expression. When the Noble Lord used that expression, be immediately called to mind a passage of one of our great poets, so adapted to the present case that be could almost believe the mind of the bard had dived into futurity, and in his prescience per ceived that a day might come (alas, a dreadful day for England !) when a proposition such as had been last night of f r o o u u g r h t es tr b w l s ad should alarm u ti oi )s. tle ju Addr d e ic ss i i o n u gs forthe the senate a sfe o t n y the claims of the co mmonalty, Coriolanus exclaimed-- Let deeds express What's like to be their words :—We did request it ; ifre are the greater poll, and in true fear They gale us our demands :—Thus we debase The nature of our seats, and make the rabble Call our cares fears : which will in time break °pc The locks o' the senate, and bring in the crows To peck the eagles." • What could be more applicable than this to the present motion? Next, at what time was the Bill brought for ward ? was it in time of peace and tranquillity at home, and with a livelihood of peace and tranquillity abroad, that Government introduced a measure calculated like this to shake and disturb the frame of society ? When we looked abroad, and saw the revolutions that took place almost d a ily, and witnessed the dreadful influence of those con vulsions at home,—when we saw the flame spreading from the southern countries north, east, and when the public mind was agitated a lmost bring. cedeat, that was the time ch osen by Minister.bey.osar PRICE Th.