The Sun. — London, England, 1861-03-05 00:00:00

persons, travelling in Belgium would be telieVed from the atino.l7ance and trouble of giving passports. WAR SHIPS IN JAPAN. Mr. WARNER asked the First Lord of the Treasury -whether it was true that a considerable naval force had been directed to proceed to the Japanese waters, and whether precautions had been adopted to prevent any consul or other civil authority from commencing a war with Japan without ja.ttructions from the Government. Lord PALMERSTON said he believed a part of the squadron which had been in the Chinese waters would visit Japan, not with any hostile intention, but to give more Support to English interests in Japan. PUBLIC BUSINESS. in reply to Mr. BENTINCIE, Lord PALMERSTON said it was intended b go into committee of supply on Thursday evening, but with regard its the army and navy estimates, they would be proceeded with according to the progress made with other business during the week. THE VACANT SEATS. In reply to Mr. BENTINCK, Sir G. C. LE WIS said that the bill relating to the four seats to be appropriated to new boroughs would not be taken on Thursday next. CONSOLIDATED FUND AND EXCHEQUER BILL ACCOUNTS. The house went into committee on this bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the following resolutions : " 1. That it is the opinion of this committee that the principal moneys of Exchequer bills issued under the au thority of Parliament, together with the . interes t thereon, which may become payable from time to timeohall becharged upon and paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom or the growing, produce thereof. 2. That the interest on such Exchequer bills shall during their cur rency by law be payable half- yearly by coupons and shall be paid at the Bank of England. 3. That an option shall be given at the expiration of each 12 months to to the holders of Exchequer bills to be paid the prin cipal moneys of all Exchequer bills held by them, and such principal moneys when paid shall be paid to the holden' at the Bank of England ; and that all Exche quer bills not so paid off from time to time shall have currency for the next 12 months following the date of such option. 4. That, when such Exchequer bills shall be paid off, the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasu r y ma y i ssue the like amount of Exchequer bills to replace the Exchequer bills so paid off. 5. That all Exchequer bills shall be re ceivable for duties granted to her Majesty during the last six months of each year during which such bills shall have currency by law." The right hon. gentleman said the subject to which he de sired to call attention was undoubtedly an important one, although he was afraid it would not be found the most at tractive of all those which might be submitted to their no tice, namely, the present legislative arrangements with regard to the instrument of publie credit called Exchequer bills, and certain proposals he was about to make to alter in some material respects the footing upon which those bills were at present placed. • For a number of years changes had been going on in the monetary condition of the country which had tended very much to contract the market of business for bills of this description. The principal change had been that a great number of securities now existed to compete successfully with Exchequer bills, and thereby narrowed the demand for them. Of course it might have been open to the public to keep on the market amounts of Exchequer bills equal to those which were formerly in use, but it could only have been done by raising the rate of in terest to a point at which the employment of such bills would have ceased to be advantageous to the public. The consequence has been that their amount has been progres sively diminished, and it was to thecause of that diminution and the mode of improving their condition, that he desired to direct the attention of the committee. The select commit tee appointed in 1857 directed attention to this among other subjects, and in the fourth section of their report they made some important recommendations. The principal of these was that Exchequer bills instead of continuing to be voted as part of the annual supplies, and to be made chargeable upon the grants of Parliament for supply services, should be transferred at once to the consolidated fund, and that they should likewise cease to be, so far as the corpus of the bill was concerned, annually renewable, but should be made current, for a period so long as might be convenient, or so long as it might go without being renewed. In the main, the first four of the resolutions were intended to give effect to the recommendations of the committee. They were not, indeed, absolutely bounded to those recommendations, be cause they contained certain particulars which might bo considered developments and applications of the prin ciple on which the recommendations were founded. The fifth resolution, on the contrary, was beyond the scope of the report of the committee. It involved in principle a re currence to the former policy of the state, and in that view he should trouble the committee with a few distinct and separate remarks on the subject. With regard to the ques tion of Exchequer bilhs, he held that the public, which was the borrower, and the holder of the bill, who was the lender, had strictly a common interest. Generally speaking, the confidence of the borrower and the lender were one and the same. But over and above what related to the condition of Exchequer bills on the market there was a separate condi tion. The Exchequer bills with which they were now dealing were called Supply Exchequer bills. They were voted in committee of supply as part of the supplies of the year, and when they were presented for payment they were obliged to be paid under the law of the country out of money which was already pledged to the supply services of the year. The origin of this custom, whldh had now be come exceedingly inconvenient to the regular progress of the public service, was to be found in the nature of the original instrument itself. When they were first resorted to they were simply instruments of credit issued in antici pation of revenues which had been granted by Parliament, but the collection of which had proceeded slower than had been anticipated, and slower than the exigencies of the pub. lie service required. Therefore the practice was to issue from the Exchequer an engagement at a short date, which was to stand in lieu of monies which Parliament had devoted to meet the charge on the establishments of the country, and as these instruments were used inenticipationof such money, it na turally followed that they were to be liquidated out of the monies themselves when they came into the Exchequer. Practically speaking, they had no connexion whatever with the supplies of the year. They looked on them as constituting a great portion of the unfunded debt of the country, and as such they renewed the power to issue the instruments from year to year without the slightest regard to what was originally termed supply. Exchequer bills bore a low rate of interest, and yet they had been compelled to exchange them at a time when the rate of Bank discount had been not less than £8 per cent. They had to expect that a considerable amount of those bills should be presented for payment in stead of being renewed, with a view to a more profitable employment of money by the holders; but out of the whole amount of bills, namely, six millions, only one million had been presented for payment. He now wished to call the attention of the committee to the Course the Government were compelled to take with reference to those bills. They were not allowed to pay them out of the consolidated fund, but out of the moneys which were appropriated by Parlia ment to support the army, navy, civil establishments, and the collection of the revenue. The consequence was that a million must be deducted as the first step from those moneys. In the meantime, how were those establishments to be supported ? That involved a system of double charge. There could net be a more inconvenient arrangement than one which made Exchequer bills payable out of that money. The bills could not be • withdrawn, and they were compelled to renew them in a most compli cated form. They ought therefore to detach wholly the un funded debt from its relation to the supplies of the year, and deal with it as a portion of dAt distinguished essentially from the funded debt, being liable to be paid off at certain times. There were other reasons which made it very dee tellable, so far as the 'public were concerned, that the basis of these instruments should be altered. It was extremely necessary the Government should have in their hands the power of using those instruments in quantities which could be regulated according to convenience. In time of war the amount of those bills was required to be large, but in time of peace the requirement would not be so great, and yet there was no regular and formarmethod of enabling Go vernment to cancel those bills by a direct act. Those bills could not consequently be allowed to lapse except in small quantities, and their re-issue was necessary, whether on financial grounds it might be desirable or not. The con sequence of these proceedings was that the law provided a remedy which was of an exceptionable kind, i.e., it enabled the Commissioners of the National Debt, without any application to Parliament, to go through the process termed the funding of Exchequer bills. Though that was a very defective arrangement, yet as the law now stood it was the only means by which it was possible to effect any material contraction in the amount of Exchequer bills which at any time might bo current-in the market. Again, nothing was more cumbrous than the instrument which the finance minister had at present in 'his hands for meet* any tem porary depression in the price of Exchequer bills. Of course °ln t he great fluctuations i n th e money mar k et o f t hi s country, which Were becoming more considerable and more "pi s, d t n r t henin fiirmar tithes, instrument s o f thi s na t ure mu like other securities under great fluctuations of price ; but what he" wAsfied' fa d6 g° as o as possible the character Of s teadin ess. was give the bills as far sure in the money market Sometimes the pres s of extremely short duration, but whenever it eat " it told on these instruments. Exche quer bills went t o a disc ount , lhenieand it was desirable to have the means of keeping for it was not to the credit of the Sta te at or above par ; t that they should for any length of time be current a t k discount, i or that they should ever go to a discou n t of j eoentateenidsiaterable amount. The only mode in which that ob on the at pr e sent be met was by raising the rate of interest exchequer bills which might be is market, and as the tim e of less . ihanl2 months if it hemp for which the bills ran was net pened that there was a pressure ehertlyafter their issue, the on ly remedy o which could be appli e d was one of a costly character, and might have the effect of carrying the Exche quer bills before the eipiration of 12 months to a premium so high as to be equally intolerable as the discount to wbs e e, they had previously been. The inconvenience s t o th e public might be thus stated : First they were called upon at the expiration of every 12 months to go to the west end of th e town and present all the bills anddeposit them for examine_ Lion. The bills remained out of their possession for some days, and they returned and had the new bills pres ented to e men. Be This was a serious incenvenience to commerc ial Be therefore proposed the 1011041 tie Whalen of the 12 g rec°,P2-71-e - s {:~__ Tilt KIN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 5, 1861. committee, to entirely do away With that necessity for the annual renewal of the bills, Meaning merely the bill itself, not the obligation to pay the money. He proposed to sub stitute for bills annually exchanged instruments of perma nent currency, having attached to them a number of cou pons, entitling the holder to receive the interest at the pro per time. These coupons might be renewal from period to period, but the bill itself would remain in pot session of the holder until, like a Bank note, it became worn from use, and no longer convenient for circulation. In giving perma nency to this bill it was not intended to give permanency to the currency of the bill. The bill would run on from year to year without any renewal, but the currency would be re newed at the commencement of each year as it was now; that was, the holder would be entitled to claim payment as now, tut if he did not claim payment within the proper time a fresh term of 12 months would commence, and so on, toties qualm. Besides these changes, which would be a great convenience to the commercial world, he also proposed to alter the present arrangements, and to entrust the whole of the money business connected both with the liquidation of the bills and the payment of the interest and principal, to the hands of the Bank of England, to be transacted as part of the business of the Funded Debt. The holders of these bills had materially suffered from the great range in the fluctuations in the price of the bills. He did not say it was possible to effect any great change in this respect, but he was confident that something might be done. Those fluctuations had not been so great as the fluctuations in the price of the funds, or in the rate of com mercial discOunts, but still they had been considerable. The right honourable gentleman then referred to a state ment of the minimum and maximum price of Exchequer bills in each of the last 20 years, and said that there were only five at those years in' which the price had not fluctuated-as much or more than 30s. In 1841 the maxi mum fluctuation was 21s. ; in 1819, 265. ; in 1850, 18s. ; in 1851, 235. ; and in 18.54, 245. On the other hand there were years in which the fluctuations were at or above 50s. In 1845 the fluctuations went up to 595. ; in 1847, to 575. ; and in 1853 to 90s. In the fourteen months from the begin ning of October, 1847, to the end of December, 1848, the fluctuation was not less than 98s. in the price of Exchequer bills. It was obvious that those fluctuations were much connected with the difficulty of applying the natural remedy. namely, raising the rate of interest. If the interest were raised for a motivate period of time, that would be an in strument which would be more easily used, and by which the discount would be more readily checked, but if they in terposed to check the discount by using a measure which might cost the public at once £lOO,OOO or £200,000, and might end in leaving Exchequer bills as much too high, in reference to the state of the money market, as they were previously too low; that, he must say, was a measure which eould net be resorted to without considerable deliberation. The last objection was the echeance of the bill, the days when it could be liquidated being rather remote. In mer cantile transactions a bill for six months was considered a very long bill; but Exchequer bills ran for twelve months. The proposal he made was to enable the holders of these bills to claim payment at a much earlier date than they now could. Before 1838 the state of the law, with regard to the presentation of bills, conformed to the original theory on which their whole legal status was founded. They were always made chargeable on the supplies of the year follow ing the year in which they were granted, and that being so, the rule was, that they might be presented for payment on any day from the close of the financial year in which they were granted. This was not a convenient arrangement, as Exchequer bills were presentable for payment at different periods from the date at which they were issued. For example Exchequer bills issued on the 6th of April were not present able for twelve months ; if they were issued on the 4th of April they were presentable in payment of taxes after the lapse of a single day. Practically the effect was this—Exchequer bills were issued at various periods of the year, and conse quently a number of them were payable at short dates. That was the state of the law before 1838 ; but in that year a different rule was substituted. The rule established was that Exchequer bills might be presentable in payment of tax es at any period exceeding twelve months from the date of their issue. The consequence of this was to destroy altogether the privilege which holders of Exchequer bills enjoyed, because as every bill was liable to be discharged in money at the expiration of twelve months, it was not likely that a man who could receive his money in direct payment; votild undergo the roundabout process of pay ing it in liquidation of taxes. What he proposed was that during the last six months of the year for which Exchequer bills should have currency by law, those bills should, at the option of the holder, be receivable in discharge of any , claim for duties or taxes due to her Majesty, This was an important provision 'which he hoped the committee would adopt. The effect of it would be this.. The Government issued Exchequer bills in the middle of March, and again in the middle of June. 'The holder of a March Exehequer bill would be able to claim,that it should be received by the Government in satisfaetion of any duties which might be :owing to the Government in and after the middle of the follovving Sep tember, and until the middle of the March next year, when the full twelve month;"-would have elapsed. The holder of a June bill would be able to make the same claim in the middle of December, and at any period following the middle of December, and until the middle of the following June. Thus these instruments would, in a very considerable de gree, have the character of six months' bills, and the holders of both March and June bills would have the power of liqui dating a portion of them every quarter. There could he no doubt that the substitution of this arrezegement would be considered very desirable b 7 authorities on financial affairs. Would it be attended by any inconvenience to the interests of the State ? It might, perhaps, be feared that when *he revenue was running short, the presentation of these bills in lieu of money might produce a pressure on the public resources, and expose us to some risk of danger with regard to fulfillingour engagements. He, however, did net think there was any ground for that apprehension. He had a :statement showing the practical working of the system during yearswhenlExchiquer bills were presentable for payment of duty. after short periods. From the conclusion of th 3 war to 1825 it happened that considerable quantities were presented, but they did not cause any inconvenience to the State. There werecertain.natural limits within which the privilege was usually exercised. Exchequer bills were held almost exclusively in London, and as - they were pre sented chiefly in payment of customs duties, it would be extremely difficult to make use of them in that way on a scale so extensive as to produce inconvenience to the public revenue. By the second resolution be proposed that the in terest should b& half-yearly instead of yearly. That would be a most useful proposition. A great but indirect advan tage of it would be that the Minister of Finance, in rectify ing the position of tacbequer bills in the market, would henceforth naturally and regularly raise the rate of interest . not for the unexpired part of 12 months, but for the unex. pired part of six months. That being the case, he might venture more freely than he now did to raise the-rate of in terest. He had been obliged to trouble the committee with a number of these details, because the proposition was one of considerable importance. He was not aware that he need go any further than to say he should be very happy to give any explanations which any hon. member might ask of him. But he must say one word with reference to the no• tice given by the hon. baronet the member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby), who intended to move as an addition to the 6th resolution, " That the Commissioners for the National Debt should not be empowered to fund any Ex- chequer bills without the previous consent of Parliament." He did not wish to oppose such a resolution, but, on the other hand, he hoped to induce the hon. member to with- I , draw it. The motion'of the hon. baronet was to prevent the Commissioners of the National Debt :from funding .Exchequet bills. He was himself friendly to the, principle of such a proposition, but last year he included a provision for this purpose. But a provision which was very conve nient in a measure relating to the general finances of the nation would not, he thought, bo convenient in tho measure now before the house.. In point of fact, it was too much and too little. It would be limited to one description of Ex chequer bills, and he meant those that were ordinarily and habitually dealt with in the open market, and it would be very inconvenient to mix up legislation on these bills with other bills that were , scarcely dealt in by the public, but which were of very great importance in regulating the finances of the country- 7 he meant the two descriptions of bills, deficiency Exchequer bills and ways and means Ex chequer bills. By far the most objectionable description of power possessed by the Commissioners of - the National Debt was that of funding deficiency Exchequer bills and ways and means Exchequer bills, because the practical effect was that the deficiency on the year was added to the funded debt of the country without the knowledge of Pediment. It would not do to leave that' power in ex istence and it the same time to deal with a minor power in a bill of this kind. What he wished the hon. baronet b do was to bring forwardhis proposition on, a more suit- I able occasion. He need hardly say that when a Government had proposed by Act of Parliament to part with this power, a representative of the Government would hardly think himself justified in using it. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said one of the propositions in these resolutions would add greatly to the' convenience of the holders of Exchequer bills, and also save some expense to the Governmt nt in their not being called upon for the renewal of the,wholo amount. This was one of the pTopa► sitions recommended by the committee on public moneys which sat four years ago. He asked whether the right hon. gentleman would take an early opportunity of carrying out the recommendations of that committee. Mr. Alderman SALOMONS said he would take the opportunity of expressing, in the name of the monetary in terest in the City, a general approbation of the resolutions. He thought, however, he might apply to the case a homely maxim, and say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had shut the stable-door after the steed had been stolen. It might be useful to review briefly the causesof . the discou ragement that had fallen on Exchequer bills, and he be lieved that it might be tracei to an error committed so far back as 1853. Exchequer bills at that time enjoyed an inte rest of 3 per cent., and Were at a preruitim of 7s. or Bs. and an attempt was made to reduce the interest ton point which prevented thepi floating in the market, and some three mil lionswera paid oft. Since that time there had - been a great increase of fl oatseeirities . of another description, East India debentii;ee and railway debentures, and there was no longer an induceraeut- tp bankers and ittpitalisiSio hold. Ex chequer bills besriAa al9w rate of interest. There.was some 1 expectation that the prospect of the payment of interest in six months would raise the estimation of Exchequer bills when the present discouraging state of the money market would have been dissipated, and when that improvement had taken place they would not hear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had the mortification to acknow ledge that a large amount of Exchequer bills had been sent in for payment at a time when it was inconve nient to the State to pay them. He might state, on the part of capitalists generally, that there was a repugnance to sending in Exchequer bills for payment at a profit of a few shillings, when doing so might be inconvenient to the Go vernment. Mr. CAYLEY approved of the resolutions, and said one effect of them would be that bankers would be able to ex tend more accommodation to their customers. Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the resolutions proposed to give the holders of Exchequer bills the right to receive their money at the end of the year. Would there be a corres ponding right on the part Jf the Treasury to call in the bills at the expiration of the year, supposing the holders of the bills did not want to get their money ? If the bills might be hoarded the Government might be inconvenienced by the payment at one time of a large amount for taxes. Although it might be true that these bills were now held in London, and that the customs duties paid in the port of London were not very large, yet when they could be paid in for duties they might and probably would be held to some extent in Liverpool. Mr. T. HANiCEY thought that the holdersof Exchequer bills had a right to expect some benefit at the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for he did not believe any Chancellor of the Exchequer had done so much to disparage this class of security as had the right hon. gentleman who now filled thlt office. Since ho reduced the rate of interest to a penny a day they had never held the place which they were formerly accustomed to hold as one of the most desir able securities a banker could hold. It was true that at the end of a year the holder might demand payment, but prac tically that was always met by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer raising the rate of interest. Suppose a large amount of these bills were sent in for payment, or for duties, how could they be paid out of the consolidated fund ? In some way or other they must be met out of the supplies, or by a loan. He agreed with the hon. member for Evesham that these bills ought not to bo added to the funded debt with out the consent of the house, and Ira hoped his hon. friend would not withdraw his resolution. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that Exchequer bills could always be kept up by their being received in payment of duties, but he thought the only legitimate way of keeping up these bills was by varying the interest from time to time. If the bills were not paid in for duties, what was to become of them ? He should recommend that the interest should be paid at the Bank of England, so as to prevent the inconvenience of persons having to go to the West-end for it. That was the favourite plan of the late Mr. Masterman, and it was fre quently urged by him upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He hoped, too, that the interest would be made payable per annum instead of de die in diem. There was no other se curity where the interest was not an annual one, and it was just as easily calculated that way as per day. The result of the present plan was to compel the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whenever he did raise the rate of interest, to raise it by a larger sum than he might otherwise have de sired. The smallest increase was a farthing a-day, which would be 7s. 6d. per year; whereas an increase of 2s. or 3s. would probably have been sufficient for his purpose. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said there was no doubt that Exchequer bile had received a great blow from the sudden change in the rate of interest; but not greater than must be given to them by secret operations on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Until they declared that all transactions in Exchequer bills must take place in the light of day, they would do nothing. The late Mr. Goul burn had shown that by the action of the government upon the Exchequer bill market, no less than seven mil lions of Exchequer bills had been converted into funded debt, and that without the knowledge of the House of Commons. By the last operations of the kind, £383,000 of Exchequer bills had been funded at the very high rate of 99f; and another sum, £791,000 at 97g. He trusted that the right hon. gentleman would give some pledge that ho would deal with the subject in the course of the present session. If he would, he (Sir H. Willoughby) should be delighted to withdraw the resolution of which he had given notice. During the four years 1838-41, the funded debt had been increased through the medium of consolidated fund bills, by the sum of £600,000, £500,000, another £500,000 and £600,000 ; and the House of Commons had all the while been in the ludicrous position of knowing nothing whatever of the transaction. What had taken place in 1838-41 might just as easily occur in 1861-4, and he repeated there fore that they would do nothing unless they put an end to the possibility of such proceedings. He thought the daily interest was convenient, and that it would be desirable to retain it. Mr. GLYN certainly agreed with everything that had fallen from the hon. baronet on the subject of concealed operations in the Exchequer bill market. As to the calcu lation of interest, he thought it would be just as easy to compute it per annum as per diem. The Chancellor of the Exchequer this year introduced two measures—the present one and that for abridging the period of closing the Bank books previous to the payment of dividends—both of which he considered to be most material practical reforms as re garded the public debt of this country. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had to I express his great gratification at the general approval of the substance of those resolutions. In reply to his hon. friend the member for Lambeth, he had to repeat what he had stated on a former evening—that he intended to introduce a bill having for its object to give effect to many of the most important recommendations of the Public Moneys Commit tee. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of the relative merits of the per diem and the per annum calcula- - tions of interest in the case-of Exchequer bills, he was open to conviction. (Hear, and a laugh.) He had found it diffi cult to ascertain what the general wish was. He believed that this was the first time the question had been introduced into that house, and perhaps the effect of its having been introduced there might be to place him in possession of the general feeling. There could be no difficulty in making provision in the bill for altering the mode of computation, if such should be thought desirable. (Hear, hear.) The general effect of the changes which he was about to make would be that Exchequer bills would be capable of liquidation through the medium of taxes in six months; capable of liquidation for money at the end of 12; and that, commencing another year, a new term would commence the same as the former. (Hear.) An hon. member had asked him whether at the end of 12 months there would be a cor responding option on the part of the Government to call them in. He did not propose to include in the bill any pro position of that kind. With respect to any apprehended in convenience from the payment of revenue by Exchequer bills, he would observe that there would be a threefold issue. There would be a power of re-issue by arrangement with the Bank of England, or otherwise; there would be a power to allow the bill to become extinct if public conve nience allowed of that course ; an i there would be a power of keeping it afloat by raising the rate of interest. His hon. friend the memb.n. for Greenwich (Alderman Salo mons) had alluded to the injury done in 1815 by reducing the rate of interest, and said that a great amount was at that time presented for payment. It was true that the effect of reducing the rate of interest from lid. a day to Id. produced a diminution out of all proportion to what one would have supposed ; but at the same time it did not lead to the presentation of a single bill for payment. It was on the 15th September the interest on the March bills was re amed; and in March not one bill was presented for pay ment. He granted that in June £3,000,000 were presented, but then a most important change in the money-market had taken place between March and June. That period had been marked not only by a progressive decline in Exche pier bills, but by an alteration in the value of other secu rities, and among other things by an alteration in the rate of discount in the Bank. The truth was that this was a long history, and its whole exposition would require a great deal of detail. The usual amount of the unfunded debt before 1838 was from £24,000,000 to £30,000,000 of Exchequer b ills. It was after 1838 that the greatest re duction took place. It was reduced from ..t!,4,000,000 in 1839 to £18,000,000 in 1842 ; and it continued at about £18,000,000 till 18.53. It was then for the moment reduced by the presentation of £3,000,000 for payment. These were re-issued in 1861, and it was a fact that no great change took place in the amount of Exchequer bill s b e t ween 18 12 _ _ _ _ _ and the close of the Russian war. The hon. baronet (Si; H. Willoughby) asked him, was it his intention to bring in a bill to take away the powers, now vested in the National Debt Commissioners, of funding these bills to which he had _ _ referred ? He could not give any positive pledge on that point, but he was still entirely of the opinion which he had expressed many years—namely, that those powers ought to be taken away. The first, second, and third resolutions weKe then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he pro posed to transpose the fourth and fifth resolutions, and to alter somewhat the language of both. What stood as the fifth resolution would stand as the fourth, and he proposed to make it read as follows :—" That during the last six months of each year during which such bills shall have currency by law such Exchequer bills shall be receivable for duties granted to her Majesty." The resolution as amended wris agreed to. The last resolution, altered as follows, was also agreed to : —" That when such Exchequer bills shall be paid off or received for duties, the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury may issue a like amount of Exchequer bills to re place them." The resolutions were ordered to be reported, Mid the house resumed. ITALIAN POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT. On the motion that the house go into committee cif supply, Mr. HENNESSY called attention to the active interfer ence of her Majesty's Foreign Secretary in promoting Pied montese policy, and to its effects. Adverting to the fawner conduct of Lord J. Russell, whom he charged with a terror of Austria and a morbid desire for interfering in Italy, he accused the noble lord of continuing in the same unhappy course, still truckling to Aukria and imprudently interfer ing in Italy. He entered at length into the proceedings of Piedmont, all of which, both politically and financially, were adverse to good government, and warmly reprobated the policy of the British Administration in aiding and en couraging those proceedings. He detailed at considerable length the injurious fiscal effects of the alteration of duties and other measures adopted by Sardinia since the annexa tion. The injury reacted upon British commerce, and yet more on that of other nations. The honourable gentle man then referred to the attack upon the kingdom of the Two Sicilies, and the issue of that attack ; the manner which the King of Sardinia had fulfilled the solemn obliga tions into which he had entered, and to the more important question of what was then the conduct of the noble lord. The King of Naples occupied a strong position on the Vol turno, and all the correspondence proved that, were it not for the assistance given to General Garibaldi by the Pied • mentese, in his attack upon him, the King could have put down insurrection. They had it on the authority of news paper correspondence of the 10th September, that Garibaldi had only 100 Neapolitans in his service fit to bear arms be fore he was joined by the Piedmontese, and the same organ observed that the revolution was made for, and not by, the Neapolitans. After the battle of the Volturno Gen. Gari baldi telegraphed to King Victor Emmanuel for 14,000 men. Gen. Garibaldi claimed the victory,though it amounted only to the capture of two cannons, and, if a victory, was gained by foreigners. It was an important question, how. ever, who it was that captured those cannons. Through the courtesy of the Board of Admiralty, he had received a letter containing the report of Commander Forbes with re ference to the statement that those cannons had been cap tured by English . seamen of H.M.S. Renown. It appeared that the demand for assistance first arose to the English Garibaldians when the cannons were 200 yards from Santa Maria. The English seamen rushed to the spot at the call, and dragged the guns into Santa Maria. (Cheers.) The British Minister had discovered the strongest Piedmontese tendencies, but his language was not objectionable. Indeed, it was rather creditable, but very different was that of the British Minister at home. The peasantry of Sicily having taken up arms in defence of their Sovereign, the noble lord asked, in one of his despatches with reference to the bar-. barons proclamation of General Cialdini, whether " the peasantry had taken up arms for good reasons." Now that question admitted of a simple answer, which was this, that the arms were taken up by foreigners, and not by native Sicilians. The noble lord declared in another place " that the Italian revolution had been conducted with sin gular temper and forbearance." (Loud cheers from the Government side.) That singular temper and forbearance would not bear the reports which had reached this country on the subject ; one English gentleman telling them, for example, that 30 villages in the Abruzzi had been burned to the ground, and another that in Sicily the nuns had been forced to fly from the convents before the Sardinians. M. Alexandre Dumas, who held an official appointment in Italy under Garibaldi, and a paper called the Nomade, also gave evidence on that question extremely unfavourable to the wonderful temper and forbearance of the Italian revolution. (Conservative cheers.) The ferocious despatch of General Pinelli, which had excited so much horror in Europe, was supposed to be answered by the allegation that he had been dismissed by the Piedmontese Government. But his dis missal did not take place until three months after the issue of that despatch, and he was not idle in the interim. In a single village he shot 123 persons within a fortnight after the date of the proclamation. By the brigade under his orders, at another village, where one house streamed with blood and was riddled with balls, 17 prisoners were imme diately shot; and at Cumano, where 150 prisoners were taken, 50 were instantly shot, the rest consigned to prison, and some of them subsequently sentenced to death. At another loyal village, where some of the peasantry h.ad been seized and sentenced to be shot, the pastor ventured to in tcteede for them on the ground that they were ignorant persons, who had never heard of Victor Emmanuel, and only knew Francis 11. The colonel did not even deign to reply to that appeal, but ordered the pastor to be shot with the others—an order that was carried out within the next hour. He (Mr. Hennessy) had thought it right to call at tention to these facts because the proclamation was alluded to in the noble lord's despatches, though the house was, he feared, not aware of the real facts. The noble lord also referred in the despatches to the late elections in Italy, but as that ground had been already so well travelled over in the other house of Parliament, he would not do more than present a few figures in order to enable the house to judge of the nature of these elections. Taking the elections in Naples, it wax extraordinary to find how few persons voted out of large populations in Southern Italy. Liberio Ro mano, now Minister at Naples, received only 119 votes. Castellano, another Piedmontese Minister in Southern Italy, 99 votes. Rossi only 60 votes, and Salecette only 60 also. ln places with a population of 100,000, not more than 119 persons voted for the members to be sent to the Pied montese Parliament. At Prancenga, a populous place, the Piedmontese cfficials inscribed only 1,213 electors on the list, a very small proportion, but of that small number only 68 voted. At Milan the total number of voters was 234, and at Florence 144. Most members of that house knew Fie nonce, it was a beautiful and formerly a gay and busy city. Its beauty remained, but its gaiety had departed ; when he was last there it was gloomy, deserted, and miserable, under Piedmontese rule. Besides this, the way in which the returns were dealt with by the Government were rather emarkatee. mgnor bath, one or the processors at Oxford, went to Italy, and was returned as a member of the Par liament for one place by 151 out of 162 votes. But Signor Saffi was a Republican, and Count Cavour is just now rather afraid of Republicans, though he has used them as his tools before. The Piedmonteso official in charge of the election was, therefore, directed to institute a " scrutiny," and that "scrutiny" resulted in his striking off 121 out of 154 votes, and so Signor Saffi was unseated. Another point that had been raised was, why the King of Naples did not defend Naples, or, leaving it, retire to Sicily ? He had been taunted by the noble lord for not doing so.—(Lord J. Russell —I never said so.) He was glad to hear the noble lord's dis claimer; but if the noble lord did not other members of the Government did, or at least members on the opposite side, and it was known the press of this country had done so. He would tell the house why the King had not defended Naples or gone to Sicily. It was because the noble lord had in de spatches, some of which were net before the house, but of the contents of which he (Mr. Hennessy) was aware, had actually interfered to prevent the King of Naples from mak ing any attempt either to regain Sicily or to defend Naples. To those despatches Liberio Romano, then Minister of the King of Naples—but in the pay of Piedmont, and the greatest traitor in Europe—referred, when the King was deliberating whether he should defend Naples or not; and it was the tone of these despatches, together with the large British fleet which then lay in the Bay of Naples, which in all probability prevented that defence from going made. Ho said, then, that he had proved his case against the noble lord who proposed non• intervention, but who had again and again actually interfered in the affairs of Italy. Mr. LAYARD trusted the house would not think he was trespassing on their indulgence if he addressed them for a short time; but he had special reasons for doing so. He took a deep interest in the cause of Italy, and although he knew somewhat more about it than the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, he promised them he would not de • tain the house at such length as he had. It should be with a policy in accordance with the opinions of the country. He was ready to divide the house upon the question. He did not want to make it a party question. Upon those grounds and the general sympathy which he had for Italy, he should like to press the motion. He did not mean to say anything disparaging to the Pope ; he believed him to be a good man ; but there was a feeling on the Continent that there was a strong prejudice in this country against the Pope. Now, he denied that. He had no prejudice himself against the Pope. On the contrary, he wished to see the Pope inde pendent ; but there was no man of great and high position in Europe who was not averse to the spiritual and temporal power being united in the Pope. Mr. HENNESSY—Zechi, the greatest astronomer in Europe, was favourable to the union of the temporal and spiritual power in the Pope. Mr. LAYARD—Zechi was a Jesuit. (Laughter.) He knew not from what source the hon. gentleman got his information—he know not whether the hon. gentleman spoke Italian; but this he knew, that there seemed to exist great ignorance in the minds of some hon. gentlemen re specting the state and government of the people in the Papal States. He was sorry to see that the hon. gentleman the member for Dungarvan was not in his place. That hon. gentleman was very eloquent, and had been in Italy at the same time he (Mr. Layard) w as th ere , and he had written _ _ • a book on Italy; but he must say that the hon. gentleman, with all his eloquence, had not shown much knowledge in his book of the state of feeling in Rome. The hon. gentle- man had spoken in his book of the Castle of San Michell° ; but he (Mr. Layard) could state to the house that, to his knowledge, there had been an artist of great celebrity con fined in that castle, and subjected to the greatest mortifica tions for his political opinions. The hon. gentleman here referred to official documents and published works, show ing that strong prejudices were enccuraged in the minds of the Christian population in Rome against Jews and other denominations not Christian, and contended that the Sardinians were justified in making ingress in the Papal States. What, he asked, happened at Bologna ? Why, in one morning 126 perao ns - accused of political offences _ _ were shot by the Austrian power. It might be said that tho Pope was not responsible for those excesses; but he would tell the house how the Pope was responsible. In the case of shooting a boy who was under legal age by tho Austrians, the Pope gave the Austrian general who allowed the act absolution. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to show that the accused prisoners had not had a Fair and impartial trial. Their trial was by Germans, and lie proceedings were carried on i n the German language, He then referred to the massacres at Perugia, and while he - - did not attempt to defend them, he must say that great . _ _ provocation had been given to cause them. There had been also great atrocities committed in other places, and he granted by both sides--by Sardinians as well as by the Pope's troops. The hon. gentleman opposite would perhaps say he did not believe his statements, but he might in re turn say, whether the hon. gentleman did or did not, he did not believe the hon. gentleman's assertions. The popula tion in the Papal States, finding their government intole rable, had cast it off. The hon. member had spoken of 4e state of trade in these dominions. He (Mr. Layard) well remembered Ferrara and the Legations being perfect de serts. Last year, when there, he had found a complete change. Men could breathe freely, and industry was im proving everywhere. He found Bologna the centre of ways, and the trade increasing. Mr. 0 ttway, writing from the spot, stated that as soon as Lombardy was annexed to Piedmont, commerce would extend, the more especially when the Austrian tariff was superseded. It now appeared that the articles most in request in that portion of Italy, under the new tariff, were articles of British commerce. While Lombardy had thus improved, the dominions of the Pope presented a totally different spectacle. There were only two railways, one from Rome to Civita Vecchia, and the other from Rome to Frascati ; and as to the security enjoyed on the latter railway, it appeared that the first train which ran had been stopped by brigands, and the passene gers and baggage ransacked. If they turned to Naples, there the prisons were filled with men who were kept in ignorance of the offences for which they were incarce rated. It was said that some sympathy should be shown for a young king who had nothing left him but the courage of despair. But was no sympathy due to the tens of thousands of unhappy people who had been victims to his tyrannical Government. He would not dwell upon the state of Venice and Venetia, but even here it appeared that two young girls accused of insulting the Austrian flag had been flogged, and the authorities of the place threa tened with the bastinado. A proclamation was issued against the population of Mantua, and political enmity fol lowed a young lady, whose misfortune it was to encroach upon supposed taste by wearing garments more copious than had been the fashion. (Laughter.) The times for reforms, then, had gone by. The secret history of 1848 would no doubt be made known, and although the Pope would turn out to be innocent, he (Mr. Layard) believed that evil coun cillors about him had aroused the indignation of the popu lation. Papal promises had been unfulfilled, even in the minutest details. The Pope had promised that a municipal body should be elected, but its election was hampered by the condition that the electors should first have their good political conduct certified. The hon. member was aware that a man could not go into the Campagna without a cer tificate that he had taken the sacrament and had been to Confeesion. Reform in Naples, then, was out of the ques tion under such a system. The worst thing ever uttered by a Governmentffell from the lips of Baron Poerio upon the occasion of the King having stated his will ingness to grant a Constitution, " Government, said Baron Poerio, is foun led on tradition. The tradition of the Neapolitan Government is perjury. (Hear, hear.) The King will show his legitimacy of descent by perjury. A man cannot perjure himself before he has taken an oath." Naples, by its atrocious and stupid conduct, which spared neither friend nor foe, had left herself without a friend on whom it could trust. It was impossible to hope for re form in Venetia under such a state of things. What were the two concessions which must precede reform ? The aboli tion of ecclesiastical privileges and ecclesiastical orders, and the giving back of the land to the tillers by taking it away from those who had reduced it to a desert. Such concession he understood could notlbe made. It was said that civilians preponderated in numbers over ecclesiastics, but the courts of appeal were filled with ecclesiastical judges, who enjoyed ecclesiastical protection, and in those courts justice could be bought and sold. (Hear.) Natu rally enough the Italian people scouted the idea of an Ita lian Confederation after the peace of Villafranca. Ne a potentate remained in Italy unsupported by Austrian bayo nets. (Hear, hear.) Where would the contemptible Dukes of Tuscany and Modena have been but for Austrian bayo nets ? (Laughter.) If these Dukes had flung themselves on the people—on the Liberal party—they might have re mained. (Hear, hear.) Victor Emmanuel was King of Italy because he was not dependent on foreign bayonets. He (Mr. Layard) believed that the king's ambition to form a united Italy a commendable ambition, but he would not have been King of Italy if the whole of the people had not joined him. He took his stand from ;the first. He said, " I will be an Italian king; I will place confidence in my sub jects ; I will give them their liberties, and will rely on them." (Hear.) When the Confederation was proposed and re jected, the whole of Italy rallied round Victor Emmanuel. He (Mr. Layard) was in the north of Tuscany when the voting to which the hon, member had alluded was going on, and he did not believe that a single man had recorded his vote except in accordance with his conscience. (Hear.) Who, indeed, had been elected to the Parliament of Tus cany. Let anybody go through the historic roll of great men in Tuscany, and it would be found that not a single name of importance was absent from this Parliament. At the head of that Parliament during the interregnum was Baron Ricasoli, a man of whom hon. gentlemen opposite might be proud, who had visited this country to become ac quainted with our latest inventions in agriculture, in order that he might benefit his countrymen with them, and against whom even his adversaries could not utter a word. (Hear.) In the legations likewise men of the highest cha racter had been elected. No set of men could be selected who would more perfectly represent the feelings of the po pulations of Tuscany and the Legations. The most remark able fact was that the foremost men in this Italian move ment were irreproachable on the score of commercial morality. There were no speculators on the Bourse to be found among them, and not a finger of suspicion could be pointed at them. Contrast such a state of things with the normal state of Rome. There everything was bribery and and corruption. If you wanted to see a public building or co read a nook . in a public library, you must bribe. The whole country teemed with bribery. Well, what was the re sult ? Throughout the whole of Italy the feeling in favour of the King of Sardinia extended, and the movement was car ried by the men of the moderate party. The hon. member spoke of intimidation being practised in Naples during the time of the election, but he (Mr. Layard) could assert, on the authority of the commander of the army, that at that time there were not more than 22 soldiers in Naples. The figures quoted by the hon. member were quite a mistake, He thought the Government were quite justified in inter fering as they had done, and he believed the despatch of the noble lord at the head of the Foreign .office correctly ex pressed the feelings of the English people. Looking at the state of Italy he was not surprised at the men who had sprung up to guide the affairs of that country. They had a great constitutional Minister in Cavour, and Garibaldi had been found to direct the energies of the people. Had Italy shown herself unequal to her position ? On the contrary, she had shown herself equal to the emergency of the occasion. Then the mode ration of the people of Italy was shown in the moderation of her Press. Italy united could not be French—dis united, Italy would always be French. He believed that the Italians would now know who were their true friends —namely, the Government and the people of England. Such being his opinion, he could not take the same view of the noble lord's (Lord J. Russell) despatch in reference to Venetia as that taken by the hon. gentleman who opened the debate. The hon. gentleman said that he believed the feelings of the people of this country were in favour of the policy of the Government in reference to Italy—namely the moral support given to the Italians ; and he believed the Italians would themselves feel that the best course which could be adopted towards them would be for us to assist them by moral force rather than by any other means, and he trusted we would continue to act in this way, to enable Italy to assume that position which she was entitled to hold in the scale of nations. Sir G. BOWYER. said that one instance would show the nature of the statements made by the hon, gentleman who had just addressed the house. He had alluded to the publication of a decree by an official at Rome. Well, it was true that a very foolish person did issue the decree in ques tion, but the moment it was seen by the Roman Govern ment the decree was withdrawn, and the person who issued it was dismissed from his office. (Hear.) As to the case re ferred to about brigands stopping a railway, why the whole thing was a hoax, and was well known to be so. When Ga ribaldi invaded the main land, the King of Naples was ad vised by the English Government to throw himself into the hands of the Liberal party. Lord J. RUSSELL—No, no ; it was the year before. iSir G. BOWYER—Rather than let Naples be bom barded the King left, and when Garibaldi entered the city was in consternation. Yes, when Garibaldi entered with his gang of pirates in their red shirts the citizens were in consternation. What was his first act? Why, he broke into one of the churches, and introduced Gavazzi who went through the ceremony of a mock Te Deuna. (Hear.) The policy of Napoleon which her Majesty's Government were fostering would lead to a union between Russia and France for the partition of Europe. (Hear, hear.) He de • nounced that policy, therefore, as contrary to the interests of England, and tending to foster the ambition of Napo leon, and aid him to get the frontier of the Rhine, and to possess himself of Antwerp, which had been described as a pistol pointed at England. By supporting Louis Napoleon they were alienating from us and paralysing the other Powers of Europe. The Emperor wanted the frontier of the Rhine and Belgium, and was steadily progressing from one step to another till this country would be obliged to go to war with him, when we could no longer put a good face upon it. (Hear, hear.) Then it would be too late. Mr. - E. JAMES moved the adjournment of the debate at a quarter to 12 o'clock amidst loud cheers. Lord PALMERSTON said that he was aware that many hon. gentlemen wanted to speak, and that the debate might , therefore not be concluded that night, but if they did ad journ it, he hoped it would only be till to-morrow (this day) —for it was desirable that the interval should not be great between debates on a question of so much importance. He hoped, also, that it might be concluded to-morrow night so that Thursday could be devoted to supply. There were other notices of importance standing on the paper, which he hoped hon. gentlemen would withdraw, in order that this might be accomplished. THE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY AND SIR B. WALKER. Sir J. PAKINGTON—Sir, I understand it to be the in tention of the Government to consent to the adjournment of the debate on Italian affairs. Therefore, although lam very sorry at this late hour to intrude on the house, I feel compelled to ask the Government, and especially the noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty, to whom I have given notice of my intention, for an explanation on a matter which closely concerns the mode of transacting public busi ness as between this house and the Ministers, and which from the nature of the circumstances I regard as very urgent. I have reason to believe that it is not now too late for the Government, if they should see fit, to change the intention announced early in the evening. I allude to the answer I received to a question which I put at the usual hour—viz., whether or not I was to infer from the fact that the. Narcissus frigate had left Spithead that the Admiralty have permitted Sir B. Walker to leave England without giving evidence before the approaching com mittee. I must remind hon. gentlemen of what has taken place on this subject. I had occasion this day fortnight to explain to the house the reasons which induced me to give up my notice of motion for a committee to inquire into the affairs of the Admiralty. In doing so I stated publicly that I had a few days before spoken to the noble lord on the subject, and I expressed my hope that Sir Baldwin Walker would not leave England without giving evidence before the committee. (Hear, hear.) I confess I thought that public statement in the House of Commons would have been enough to ensure that Sir B. Walker would be examined as a witness, and I venture to say it ought to have been enough. Nothing more occurred till Thursday last. On that morning I was told by a friend that I had better make some inquiry, for he understood that Sir B. Walker was to leave England on the following Satur day. I could hardly credit that information, but I imme diately wrote a letter to my noble friend the Secretary to the Admiralty to tell him that in the evening I meant to put a question to him to learn whether that report VT2: B true. When the debate came on that same evening, on the ine, , i7 of the hon. member for Portsmouth, that hon. member anti cipated the question I was about to ask, and made an urgent appeal to my noble friend on the importance of Sir B. Walker's evidence, if the committee really was to be granted. (Hear.) I followed the hon. member for Portsmouth later in the debate, and, pursuing my written notice given in the morning, also addressed an earnest appeal to the noble lord, stating that Sir B. Walker was, if not the most important witness, certainly the most important with only one excep tion, and that it was absolutely essential, if you were to have an inquiry into the conduct of the Admiralty that he should give his testimony. (Hear.) My noble friend spoke immediately after me, beginning with a statement which I confess very greatly surprised me. He said the noble duke at the head of the Admiral tyhad been willing that Sir B. Walker should, if necessary, be detained in this country, but that the noble lord had applied to the hon. and gallant admiral who was about to move for the committee, whether he thought it necessary that Sir B. Walker should be so detained. But that was not all. The noble lord said he had applied, not to the hon. and gallant admiral only, but to " the other members of the committee." Now, the committee was not then, and is not now appointed. (Hear, hear.) What ar rangement, therefore, may have been going on with regard to it I cannot say ; but, perhaps, the noble lord can tell us what he meant last Thursday evening by stating that he had applied to the hon. and gallant admiral and the other members of the committee to ascertain whether they wished that Sir B. Walker should be detained. The noble lord said that the hon. and gallant admiral then expressed an opinion that the evidence of Sir B. Walker before the Dockyard Commission would be sufficient for the forthcoming inquiry. Now, I cannot, in passing, refrain from avowing my aston ishment that the noble lord or the hon. and gallant admiral should have allowed themselves to be parties to so improper and irregular a proceeding. We are informed that the hon. and gallant admiral who moved for the committee is not even to be its chairman. But supposing he were to be, I ask what right or what power he could possibly have to speak in the name of a committee not yet appointed, and to undertake to say what its opinions would be with regard to the propriety of examining any particular witness ? Sir, let me here pro test against the futile, and—l do not wish to use any strong expression —but the untenable proposition that evidence taken before another commission, which evidence is not be fore us—(hear, hear)—can be sufficient for all the purposes of another and a wholly distinct investigation. Even sup posing that evidence to be in our possession, and to be for molly referred by this house to this select committee, how can the noble lord or the gallant admiral say what cross-examination it may suggest to the committee as in. dispensable to the due prosecution of their inquiry ? (Hear.) So much for the first part of the noble lord's an swer. But he proceeded to say what I will now read to the House. The noble lord's words were :—" Even now, 'if it were the wish of the House of Commons that Sir B. Walker should remain a few days, to give evidence before the com mittee, the noble duke would not put himself in opposition to its wishes." Now, I maintain that that was a pledge on the part both of the noble lore and of the Admiralty that this important witness should not be sent away. (Hear.) What did the noble lord mean by saying, "if it were the wish of the House of Commons ?" How was he to ascertain the wish of this House ? Did he suppose that we were going to move a formal resolution ? What test of the feeling of this House could he desire more conclusive than the fact of ono member after another rising and ex. pressing a strong opinion that the testimony of Sir B. Walker was all-important ? It is mentioned in the quar ter from which I took that extract that this intimation was received with cheers. Let me ask the noble lord how many of the gentlemen who joined in that cheer does he suppose thought that, after this pledge given on Thursday night, Sir B. Walker would be sent away from England on Saturday morning ? (Hear, hear.) These are the facts of the ease, 'with one material addition. The pledge given on Thursday night was contingent on the wish of the House of Commons. On Friday night we had another discussion on this subject; and then my right hen. friend the member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) took part in the debate, adding another opinion —and an opinion, I need not say, of no little weight under all the circumstances—to the earnest hope before expressed, that Sir B. Walker would not be allowed to leave England before being examined. (Hear, hear.) Well, there was then still ample time left. We know the quickness of telegraphic despatches. And after this increased indication of what was the wish of the House of Commons, unaccompanied by the slightest symp tom of an opposite desire, I say the noble lord had as clear a 'roof as he could reasonably expect of the feeling of this house, and that the departure of Sir B. Walker is a viola tion of the pledge given in the words I have quoted. (Hear.) I think it right to lose no time in bringing this matter for ward. Here is a committee of no ordinary interest moved for. There are some two or three men in whose power it it is throw light on the inquiry. One of the most prominent of them is Sir B. Walker. And lam sorry to add that, when in the face of all these circumstances we find Sir B. Walker despatched from England on Saturday morning without necessity,—for I do not think the noble lord will pretend to say that the loss of another few days can be of any consequence beyond the mere delay in relieving'Sir H. Keppel at the Cape,—it is impossible to resist the suspicion that there must be some motive beyond what is avowed for preventing the examination of this witness. (Hear, hear,) It will be for the house to consider whether it will, under the circumstances, be of any use for this committee to go on. (Hear, hear.) I do not wish to commit myself to any hasty opinion, but my present impression is, that the committee will be of little or no value without the presence of this officer. This, however, will be a matter for subsequent consideration. For the present I only call on the noble lord to give an explanation of the circumstances to which I have adverted ; and I shall be glad if he can remove the impression that must exist and the belief I have been obliged to express that the conduct of the Admiralty, as it now stands before us, has been disrespectful to the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) Sir I. ELPHINSTONE wished to ask the noble lord whether be could tell where Sir Baldwin Walker was. (A laugh.) After he had weighed from Spithead, a strong westerly wind came on to blow ; it had kept on blowing very hard ever since, and that day three parts of a gale was blow ing from the west-north- west. It was not, therefore, likely that the gallant admiral had got very far, and it might still be within the bounds of possibility to detain him. He ven tured to say that if he were not forthcoming the inquiry would be a mere mockery of Parliament, and the appoint ment of the committee would be perfectly useless. It cer tainly did appear a most suspicious circumstance that Sir Bald win Walker should be sent to sea in a gale of wind for the purpose of getting him out of the way. (Hear, hear.) Mr.:CONINGHAM regarded the occurrence complained of as an illustration of the objections to the system accord ing to which the head of the Admiralty had his seat in the other branch of the Legislature. A charge of something like sharp practice had been brought against the noble duke, but they saw nothing of him, and had no opportunity of forming an opinion with respect to him. He had a n oppor _ _ ;unity of seeing a great deal of the noble duke on a seleci committee appointed to investigate the National Gallery —(" Oh I" and laughter—and he must say that his conduct was not calculated to inspire him with confidence. Lord C. PAGET—I am sure it will not be necessary for me to defend my noble friend the Duke of Somerset's con- duct as chairman of the Committee on the National Gal lery, but this I can say, that the way in which he has per formed his duties at the Admiralty has given general satisfaction. With regard to the question put by my hon. friend the member for Portsmouth, as to where Sir Baldwin Walker is to be found now, 1 have no doubt he is boxing about the Channel. leo not think he can have got very far, and I can only repeat that if it be generally desired tha! the gallant admiral should attend and give his evidence, the Admiralty will not oppose itself for a moment to the wishes of the house. Let me state frankly what occurred. My right hon. friend was in great doubt with reference to this committee. Sometimes he said a committee would be of no service, and then he came down and advocated its appoint ment. His opinions have changed so often as to the pro priety or non• propriety— Sir J. PAKINGTON—I wish my noble friend, if he quotes me, would do me the favour to quote me correctly. Just now ho has put forward quite inaccurately what I stated. Lord C. PAGET—At all events the right hon. gentle man expressed an earnest desire the other night that Sir Baldwin Walker should be made to attend and give his evidence. (Hear, hear.) I then stated that he had very important duties to perform ; and I may now add that he has to meet Sir H. Keppel at Ascension, to make arrange ments for taking up his station, as Sir H. Keppel has then to proceed to America to relieve another admiral. (Hear, hear.) It was thought right by the noble duke at the head of the Admiralty to detain Sir B. Walker until he had pre pared the Estimates ; that delay, though necessary for the public service, was inconvenient, and it therefore became of great importance that Sir B. Walker should start for his destination as soon as possible. I communicated to the Duke of Somerset the earnest wish of the right hon. gen tleman that Sir B. 'Walker should remain ; but I stated also that the gallant admiral who was about to move for the committee had come to me and mentioned that he had consulted several gentlemen whom he proposed to name as members of the committee—gentlemen, give me imo to , say, whose ability and fitness the house o7ill recognise if the committee should come to be named—and that they we're of opinio u with him that there was no necessity to detain Sir B. 'Walker from his important duties, as be had alroady given hik. - evidence fully regarding the branch of the Admiralty with Which ho was connected. My gallant friend stated the saule thing distinctly to the house in the course of the evening. (Hear, hear.) I therefore applied to my noble friend at the head of the Government to decide whether, under these circumstances, Sir B. Walker ought to go or remain, adding that I was sure my noble friend the Duke of Somerset would be ready to consult the wishes of the house. My noble friend replied that he did net think there had been any conclusive expression of opi nion on the part of the house that the gallant admiral ought to remain. That was the state of the case on Thursday. It is quite true that on Friday evening the right hon. gen— tleman the member for Oxfordshire expressed a desire that. Sir B. Walker should remain. (Hear, hear.) It being my duty to make knuwn any observations which may be made in this house to the noble duke and to the Board of Admiralty, my noble friend asked whether I thought there had been any general expression of opinion on the part of the house. I could not say that there had been anything beyond the fact that the right hon. gentleman, w ho seemed to have taken on himself a very leading part in thib matter—(hear)—had made the request, and, on th other hand, that the gallant admiral, for himself and his friends had extprcssed a wish that Sir B. Walker should: proc, , ed on the sorvice indicated. The question, therefore, remains —Did tho house express any opinion on the sub ject ? I can say honestly that Ido not think any decided opinion was e xpresoed. But if such be now the wish -of the house I beg to :'By that I will this night acquaint th e no bl e duke with that w2sh, and will take measur es t o s t o p Si r B. Walker, at whatev 'er inconvenienoe to the public serviee_ (Hear, hear.) Mr. HENLEY—It must be apparent to every one that. evidence said to have be, tn given before a committee having reference specially to doatyards cannot properly be relevant to such a very different question as the constitution of the Board of Admiralty, and tl terefore the evidence of Sir B. Walker, having been so rest rained cannot be applicable to the preseni purpose. Now, the Admiralty does not stand particularly well in public estimation at the present mo ment—(hear, hear) —many persons have not been able to reconcile to themselveo the assent•given to thelappointment of this committee, and I cut it to .the noble lord whether the public would not be apt to say that% the Admiralty granted this committee at the same time that they took care the only man who could really give evidence should be re mtved. (Hear, hear.) If my rec ollection does not fail me, Sir Baldwin Walker was appointed to his late posi tion during the administration of the late Sir R. Peel. See, therefore, what immense experiem.'e he must have possessed. All the changes of importance in naval con struction must have taken place during his reign at the Admiralty. Therefore, it is quite impossible that with out the presence of the gallant admiral the matter can be fairly inquired into. (Hear.) He is the only person who can carry the stream of information through such a number of years, and through all those interesting changes ea to which the public mind is so much excited as almost to haws come to the conclusion that some error, or shortcoming, or mistake, has existed somewhere. If the inquiry is to be useful, let us have the means of pursuing it effectually; but if not, it would be better to come to a resolution condemna tory of the Admiralty at once, and call on the Government to provide a substitute. Lord P ALME R ST ON—What my noble friend has states is perfectly true. On Thursday evening the right hon. baro net expressed a wish that Sir B. Walker should be detained ; but the gallant admiral by whom the committee was to be: moved for stated in the most distinct manner that there was no necessity to examine Sir B. Walker, as evidence amply sufficient for all purposes had already been given by him; and on grounds of public importance he agreed that he: should go to his station without delay. On that I stated tob my noble friend that I was satisfied the gallant admiral had better go. On the other hand, as there appears to be a de sire on the part of those who are to be members of the com mittee that Sir B. Walker should be examined, I am satis fied the noble duke at the head of the Admiralty will give directions to have him called back as soon as possible. I have only to add that there has been no desire to withdraw this officer from examination ; on the contrary, her Ma jesty's Government, I am sure,•have no wish except to give the fullest information on every point to which the atten tion of the committee may be directed. Steps shall imme diately be taken to have him brought back. (Hear.) The debate on Italian affairs was then adjourned to this evening. PAROCHIAL ASSESSMENTS BILL. On the order of the day for going into committee on this bill, Sir G. C. LEWIS moved that it be referred to a Belecs committee. Mr. MOFFATT believed the bill to be so faulty as to be incapable of satisfactory amendment in committee. After a short discussion the house divided on the ques tion that the bill be referred to a select committee, when the numbers were, For the motion . 47 Against it Majority The Local Government Act Amendment Bin was read a second time. The Inclosure Bill and the Marriage Validity Bill went through committee. GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS. Mr. :DUNLOP moved that the Chairman of the Com mittee of Ways and Means shall,maka a report to the house previously to the second reading of any private bill by which it is intended to authorise, confirm, or alter any contract with any department of the Government whereby a public charge has been or may be created; the report of the Chair man, together with a copy of the contract, and of any reso lution to be proposed in relation thereto shall be circulattd with the votes two clear days at least before the day .on. which such resolution is to be considered in a committeeof the whole house, and such consideration shall not take place until after the time of private business ;' nor shall the report of any such resolution be considered until three cleiff days at least after the resolution shall have been agreed•t6 by the committee. After some conversation, The motion was agreed to; and it was Ordered that the resolution should be a standing order of the - house. The house adjourned at five minutes past 1 o'clock. CO UNTR 1 1 MARKETS. COLCHESTER —MARCH 2. A moderate supply of wheat ; best samples barely rea lising the full prices of last week ; inferior parcels difficult of sale. Fine malting barley commands full prices, and, other sorts dull. Beans and peas as before. Wheat, white 6os to 68s Beans, Mazagan.. 36s to 42s red 44s to 60s } Middle & small 44s to 50s Barley 4os to 48s I White peas 4 Bs t o 52. Oats —s to —s Grey,. 42s to 48a CHELMSFORD—MARCH 1. A fair number of samples of wheat on offer, but the business done was very limited, at barely previous prices.' Spring corn firm, with a dull business. Wheat, white 39s to 63s i Peas, Partridge ..43s to 44s red 48s to 60s i White 43s to 46s Barley 29s to 42s Boiling 43s tb - 474 Chevalier ....32s to 45s Dun 39s to 42s Grinding 26s to 37s - Beans, Tick ....36s to 44s Malt 6l s t o 67 8 H arrow Ticks 37s to 47s Chevalier 6ls to 69s Mazagan 30s to 41s Oats 26s to 31s KIRKALDY—MAncx 2. We had only moderate supplies to-day of wheat, bar ley, and oats. Last week's rates receded 6d to is. Wheat _ I Barley I Oats First.... 32s Od 3os 6d I 21s Od Second.. 55s Od 40s Od 27s 6d Third .. GOs 6d 438 Od 32s Od [ADvEIinsEmENT.] Pills and medicine invariably ag gt and perpetuate diseases ; their annoyance, dis appointment, and expense may be avoided by persons in indifferent health sending only their address to IC. S. Barry, Esq.. 77, Regent-street, W., London, and they will receive gratis and free by post the " INv.stans' ()wig GUIDE," or Natural Restorer, without medicine or ex pnise, of perfect digestion, strong nerves, sound lungs, and refreshing sleep, to the most enfeebled, insuring the removal of indigestion (dyspepsia), constipation, liver complaints, nausea, epilepsy, paralysis, debility, nervousness, palpitation, cough, asthma, consumption, dropsy, flatulency, diarrheas dysentery, biliousness, fevers, sore throats, catarrhs, COlds, noises in the ears, rheumatism, gout, impurities, eruptions, hysteria, neuralgia, irritability, sleeplessness, acidity, palpi. tation, heartburn, headache, despondency, cramps, spasms, sinking, fits, bronchitis " Unouestionably the safest Geld 10 health." 13"1RT HS. DAVIS.—On the 4th inst., at 15, Oxford-square, the wife of Wm. Davis, t sq., of a son. DALZIEL.—On the 3d inst., at 1, St. George's-square, Regent's park, Mrs. Davison Dalziel, of a son. HARRINGTON.—On the 3d inst., at Holly Lenge, Han.. well, the wife of Richard Harrington, Esq., of a son and heir. MARRIAGES. STARKEY—SAVILL.—On the 2d inst., at St. George's, Hanover-square, Richard William Starkey, of Hard wick House, Camden-road, Holloway, to Ellen, third daughter of the late Jonathan Savill, of Chigwell, Essex. TEMPLE—SADLER —On the 28th ult., at Warwick, Chas. Temple, Esq., of the Bengal C.S., to Hannah M ar i a , th e youngest daughter of the late Michael Thomas Sadler, Esq, M.P., F.R.S. D E A:T II S. CHRISTIAN.—On the 28th ult., at Fy sc h e Hall, Knares borough, Hugh Geo. Christian, Esq., late Bengal C.S., second son'of Sir Hugh Clobury Christian, Rear-Admi ral of the Blue, K. 8., aged 73. GREAVES.—On the Ist inst., at Weymouth, Josh. Greaves. Esq., of Raby-placc, Bath, aged 71. MoNcx.—On the 27th ult., at Belsay Castle, Lady Mary, wife of Sir Charles Monck, Bart. NPLAUCHLAN.—On the Ist inst., at Bombay House, Bridge of Allan, N. 8., Mrs. John M'Laughlan, only sister of David Roberts, R.A., Fitzroy-street, London. PHILLIPS.—On the 3d inst., at his residence, Garrick's Villa, Hampton, Silvanus Phillips, Esq., aged 85. • LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, at No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE SUN Office, No. 112,Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the County of Middlem, Tueld&Y, Aluch 5, zatt.