The Sun. — London, England, 1827-06-13 00:00:00

actually by law imported, that the corn actually ware housed, shall not be admissible till the price reaches 665. What a strange mode of legislating is this ! Can any thing be more absurd? C an any thi ng b e more puerile? Can any.thing be more contradictory than such an Amend meet ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—l ask your Lordships whe ther one thing can possibly be more lit 'variance with another, than the Resolution for which the Noble Duke declares himself respontible, and the Amendment by which the Noble Duke seeks to defeat the Resolution—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Thee principle of the Bill is founded upon the Resolution; and I ask your Lordships whether the Noble Duke's Amendment is not directly subversive of the Reso lution ? What is the principle of the Bill ? It is the sub atltnaion of a protection by duty for o protection by pruhi 'oition, that duty diminishing as the price rises, and rising as the price falls. It is a substitution of protection to the agriculture of this country by the principle of duty, in etnad of prohibition, and a sudden removal of prohibition at a high price. The Amendment of the Noble Duke is 3 0*tive of the principle upon which the whole measure is f d ; it goes to preserve, pro tanto, the principle of prohibition, of which it is the object of the measure to get rid of. I say, therefore, my Lords, if we have any regard for the consistency of our votes, having agreed to the second reading of the Bill, we ought to reject a Clause which is subversive of its principle, and inconsistent with the Reso lution on which the Bill was founded. The Noble Duke declares himself a friend to the warehousing system. Now if be is really a warm friend to the warehousing system, his attachment to that system makes his Amendment still more at varianee with his real opinions ; for his Amend ment is so directly destructive of the principle of the Bill of Which he approves, that it must end in the destruc tion of the warehousing system. The effect of the I%Toble Duke's Amendment will be, to produce one of two things—either to destroy entirely the warehousing sys tem, or to continue the evils and inconveniences which it is the object of this Bill to remove. The Amendment of the Noble Duke is unjust, impolitic, and disingenuous: If your Lordships wish to destroy the warehousing system, declare that system at once to be impolitic. I could un derstand. though I should not approve of the arguments by which it might be attempted to get rid directly of the warehousing st stem. But when I am told that it is the object of this proviso to give advantages to the fair trader, and to check speculators, I can see nothing in this but a return to those principles which are long exploded in other countries, and which, I had almost persuaded myself, were also exploded in this. What is it, I should be glad to know, that is called speculation? Is speculation to be deemed a crime, and are speculators to be treated as de- Unguents ? Such a notion is tenable only on'the principle men which interference with the dealings of the farmer, the merchant, and the manufacturer was wont to be de fended. The merchant may choose to bond his corn, and the farmer to keep it in his farm-yard ; every trader will, of course, endeavour to make as much profit, and to turn his capital to as gool an account as he can. This is, of course, the principle of all mercantile transactions, and I utterly deny that it is to he considered as unfair ape-ilia tion.—(Hear, hear.)—lt is a fortunate dispensation of Pro vidence that men's interests make them peculate, as it is reed ; and that those speculations, which short-sighted .Levis!ators wish to check, do more good . for us than the misdirected ingenuity of ten Howes of Parliament can do harm by discouraging them.—(Hear, hear.)—Who are these unfair speculators, as they are called ? Who. I :huh! he sled to know, are the delinquents: They are men who bond their corn in England, for the purpose of making e :treater profit of it when corn shall reach a high price, and we have no right to expect them to feed us for any et t, er reason. They are the stewards of the pub lic—they keep granaries for the public during times of. abundance, to supply oar wants during periods of scarcity and distress.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—This, my Lords, is one of the great advantages of the bonding sys tem, which the amendment of the Noble Duke is calcu- , lated to destroy. A more formidable and statesman-like. objection to the free admission of foreign corn is, that it tends to increase our dependance on foreign countries for al supply. But this objection is aggravated by an interfer ence with the bonding system. You may prevent specu lators from handing their corn in England, but you cannot prevent them from lodging it in warehouses and magazines ti on the opposite coasts ; and the effect of interfering with the bonding system will be, that in case of emergencies, we shall have to look to foreign countries for a supply, in stead of having recourse to the warehouses on our owu shores. Another inconvenience arising front an interfer ence with the bonding system will he, to give a premium. to foreign shipping over British shipping; but this he'll been so clearly stated by the Noble Lord who opened the. debate, that I shall not attempt to weaken the effect oft what fell from him, by repeating his arguments. The Noble Duke has expressed his belief that dealers wouldl continue to band their corn, notwithstanding the diead vantages order which his amendment would place them.— If there be any ground for this belief, whydo away with the kw as it now stands ? What necessity would there be for al tering the system of prohibition? The Noble Duke's proviso is, in fact, a re-establishment of the old system, which the. House had so strongly condemned, in one of its most material: and essential particulars—the bonding system. Those Noble Lords who wish to maintain the old system of prohibition ; will, no doubt, best effect their desire of ruining this Bill. by supporting the Noble Duke's Amendment. It may be no unfair exercise of Parliamentary tactics to do so ; and I. believe: that, if I participated in their opinions, my virtue would not be so stubborn as not to give my hearty support' to this particular clause. If the Noble Duke were to walk; round the benches, mad canvass the opinions of Noble' Lords, I believe be would not find a single enemy of the Bill who was not ready to give his hearty vote for the! Amendment. As to the principle of the Bill, this is me the most convenient season to discuss it. For my own part, I do not affect to be very conversant with the theory of the subject, for I never read political economy by any chance; but I must say, that, as far as I can form a judg ment of the subject from experience, from analogy, and from principles of common sense, the present Bill is infi nitely preferable to the former system, and upon that score I have given my hearty vote in favour of the mea sure. There is another point to which I cannot but ad vert—l mean the time during which this important ques tion has remained unsettled, and the pernicious effects which are likely to result throughout the country from its continued agitation. I will ask Noble Lords who support this clause to lay their hands upon their hearts, and say whether they feel assured that another year of discussion; with an intervening harvest, may not be the densequence of the vote which they intend to give this night? This consideration alone ought to induce Noble Lords, who imagine themselves more particularly interested in the land—though, in my opinion, the whole community is in. terested in the prosperity of the land—even if they believe that there is any slight objection to the Bill, to gulp it down, and vote for it. Should a time of scarcity arrive, and this questeo be still under discussion, do those Noble Lords imagine that any Government will be strong enough to pass a Bill, such as that which is now under your Lord. ships' consideration.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lf you get rid of this Bill, depend upon it you will never have such another Take it for all in all, You ne'er will look upon its like again." it behoves your Lordships to exercise some little foreeight, and not to reject a measure for which your Lordships may be under the necessity of substituting one far less favourable to the interests of the agriculturists ? Do I mean to say that your Lordships will be compelled to yield to popular clamour ? No, my Lords, not to popular clamour, but to that strong c:irrent of popular opinion which must influence legislation in a free state, and which every branch of the legislature is bound to respect. I cannot help thinking, therefore, that prudence suggests the propriety of legislating on this subject at a time when corn is comparatively cheap and the people comparatively quiet, instead of adopting a course which will probably have the effect of postponing the discussion of this question to a period when the interests of the agriculturists may be affected by circumstances which it would be invidious more particularly to describe. Such, my Lords, are the general principles upon which I support the Bill; such are the grounds upon which I oppose the proviso—a proviso, which is directly contrary to the prin. ciple of the Bill, which contradicts in terms the Resolu tion on which the Bill is founded, and which i:; calculated to arrest the progress and defeat the success of the whole measure.—(Hear, hear.) Earl BATHURST contended that there was no esseni. cial difference between the Amendment of the Noble Duke and the proposition of the President of the Board oIS Trade, as explained in the speech of the Noble Secretary for Colonial Affairs. The objections which had been urged against the Amendment applied just as strongly to the proposition of the President of the Board of Trade. Thee proposition was, that after the passing of the present Bill, corn should not be taken out of the warehouse, nn. less the average market price was 665. This might hap(' pen th e n e x t y ear , or it m i g ht no t h a pp e n for ten years tft come. He objected strongly to the reciprocity clause, an 4 to the arbitrary power which the Government would posh. noSB of determining what goods should not be warehoused: The Earl of FALMOUTH did not rise to vindicate tl4 Noble Duke from the charge of inconsistency which had been preferred against him. It was unnecessary he should do so, for the Noble Duke had done it: himself tritursi phantly. He was entirely opposed to the Bill, which hi considered to be in the highest degree unnecessary, impoi litic, and unjust. Not only was the Bill detrimental to the national interest!, but he thought the time selected for introducing it was peculiarly ill-chosen. He assured the Noble Viscount opposite (Goderich), that in forming his judgment on this subject, he had taken his advice to dis card all party considerations. There would not be the slightest tinge of party feeling in the vote he should give that evening in cordial opposition to the Bill, unless it was modified by the Amendments which had been proposed. The Earl of DARNLEY had no disposition to enter into the discussion opened by the Noble Earl (Harrowby) as to the prohibiting system. The only question before their Lordships was, whether in the schedule of the Bill, the right point of departure bad:seen fixed upon. He cer tainly was of opinion, that the b.st mode of obviating the inconvenience that might result 'emu the variations of the averages, would be to adopt the proposition of his Noble Friend (the Earl of Malmeshury' to fix the rate of duty at the time of importation, and no: to leave it open to spe culators to throw an immense surply on the market at any time when they might find it their interest to do so. He thought it might also prove useful to confine the amend ment of the Noble Duke to the cern now in bond. There never had been a season within his memory, when the appearance of the harvest was more propitious. There was every reason to expect that the next produce of corn would be more abundant than any for a long series of years. Under these circumstances, it would only be fair to the house-grower to secure him in the first in stance against a great influx of foreign corn into the market, and give him time to adjust himself to the subsequent operation of the Bill. As a permanent measure, he ap proved of the Bill, but he was glad to avail himself of the Noble Duke's Amendment for the purpose he had describ ed. He felt it his duty, therefore, to move an Amend ment to the effect he had stated. Their Lordships would perceive, that his Amendment was contingent on that of the Noble Duke. If they rejected the latter, his, of course, fell to the ground. He concluded by reading his Amend ment, by which he restricted the former Amendment to corn now actually in bond, excluding from its operation that which might be brought into the warehouses after the Bill had passed. Lord GODERICH said, the effect of his Noble Friend's Amendment would be, that all the foreign corn warehoused after the passing of this Act, and entered for home consumption, would be admissible on payment of the duties in the schedule, while the corn which was now in the warehouses would be excluded till the average price was 665. This, he thought, would be a measure exceedingly harsh towards the present holders of bonded corn. The Noble Earl's Amendment would permit the whole world besides to come into competition with the home grower. He could conceive nothing more objection able to that principle than this proposition, to which for one, he (Lord Godericb) could not accede. _ . After a few words from Lori GODERICH and Earl DARNLEY, which we c3uld not bear, The LORD CHANCELLOR put the question, whether it was their Lordships' pleasure that the word " after" should stand part of the clause. His Lordship declared that the contents had it. Lord CALTHORPE thought that the bill, though not the best that might have been framed, would yet be pro ductive of some good. He was decidedly opposed to the amendment of the Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington); and, as to what had been said respecting their Lordships being influenced by their characters as landholders, it was an insinuation utterly bereath notice. The Earl of HABEWOOD spoke in so low a tone of voice as to render several of his observations inaudible below the bar. We understood him to vote for the amendment proposed by the Noble Duke (Wellington) in the discharge of his public duty. He was most anxious at the same time that his vote should not be misunder stood, either by that House or the public. He voted for the clause, as a means of restraining the warehousing sys tem, which at present he thought to be inexpedient, and because he was also desirous of giving the agriculturists a greater protection than was afforded by the Bill in its original shape. He was, :n fact, anxious to provide, in adverse seasons, a compensating price for a diminished production. The Marquis of LANSLOWNE observed, that he had heard a good deal of the necessity of altering the title of the Bill, to make it better suit the real object of its framers; but upon this suggestion all he should say was, that no al teration in the title would have facilitated that great alter ation in the substance, which would have admitted or justified any one of the suggested amendments; and more particularly that of the Noble Luke to which so much sup port had been given. Under these circumstances, he thought it of the first importance that their Lordships should deliberately consider w:iat was the proper title of the Bill, and what was the 1 roposed Athendmeet. Of the latter, indeed, they had had already ample oppor tunities of being thoroughly 1111)1-med. The object of that amendment, as stated by the Noble Duke, differed singu larly enough, and most materially, from the reasons as signed by several Noble Lords rho had given it their sup port. As the amendment came from its Noble Author, it was perfectly consistent with his avowed support of the principle of the warehousing system : others followed in its advocacy, but on the ground that it checked that system, while there were still more who gave it their support because it extinguished—what ? Why, that very ware housing system altogether, which now, forsooth, it was deemed advisable to extinguish, after its adoption into the policy of the country for a series of thirty or forty years, sanctioned by successive Acts of Parliament, and im proved and extended by various practical regulations which the experience of circumstances suggested. This policy was, however, now for the first time discovered, by some new lights, to be inexpedient ; for be it remem bered that among those who talked most disparagingly of " new lights," there were gleams of their own which shot forth, and which were as muck opposed to, the dicta and authority of the greatest statesrueu, and to the wisdom of successive Parliaments, as any that had ever been advocated by the most speculative political economists in their wildest and most absurd crudities.—(Hear, hear.)--Now their Lordships had learned that a measure which he and others had always apprehended had extended the warehousing system, and which was uniformly avowed to have been in tended for that purpose, was for ided upon quite a different basis ; and this they had be a told by a Noble Earl (Bathurst) who had himself baen a party to the measure of 1625, which according to his construction, was meant to limit and restrict that system, although, if looked into, there could not be a doubt but its framers had meant exactly the reverse. For what else was the power given to the Lot& of the Treasury to extend the warehousing system to other ports ? and he defied the Noble Earl to show him a single clause in any one of the Acts to justify any thing like the restriction which was now contended for. Earl BATHURST, in explanation, referred to the second clause in one of the Acts. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not mean to com plain of this interruption, nor was he prepared at this mo ment to go clause by clause with the Noble Earl through all these acts of Parliament; but at the same time he felt the fullest confidence, that he could show from the general spirit of every act, from the first to the last, respecting the warehousing system, that the intention of the Legislature was not to check but to extend and protect that system, which, under every wise view of the whole question, was to give the fairest scope to agricultural industry, and to the security of its reasonable profits. To depart from that po licy at present, would not be, as was supposed, to give a better protection to agriculture, but to V. ithdraw that ca pital which had heretofore, and by a great extension during the last 10 years, been employed in the warehousing sys. tern ; and thus reverse, by an incidental clause in a Bill, the whole current of your salutary policy—and upon what grounds? When Noble Lords referred to the warehousing system, they looked to it as a bugbear of alarm, and, in doing so, he really thought they regarded it more from ap pearances suggested by their own imaginations than by the reality of the view. It was quite clear that if they abo lished the warehousing system, foreign grain would not come into the market, as it now did, to await their good time of giving them a benefit and a remedy for a great evil, against which they all admitted they were bound to guard. Nobody went so far as to propose the exclusion of foreign corn ; on the contrary, it was universally admitted that there was a necessity to stipulate for its admission, and the only difference was, as to the time when that necessity ought to arise. But some Noble Lords appeared to have ent rely overlooked the advantage of lodging that foreign supply in a depot which was pro vided in the safest poesible manner, for it was totally independent of the movements of foreign politics, or, indeed, foreign controul; and where its entrance into the market was regulated, so as to have operation exactly at the moment required by the pressure of the country's wants, and at no o th er . If i t b e ( as it o b v i ous ly mus t) th!interest of the farmer to get the benefit of any rise of price, as soon as possible after c i rcums t ances f urn i s h t h e opportunity, and of the consumer to get the supply ex actly at the season of went, the warehousing restore fur nished the direct means of securing this accommodation for both, with the greatest quickness and certainty. Whereas, if the country was left to depend upon the movements of foreigners for supply, as must be evident if they departed from what he believed to be their better system, the agri culterist would then be exposed to a glut in the market, exactly at the time when his interest would require that the supply should be gradual, and in proportion only to the exigency of the case. WILh respect to the suggested ope ration of the amendment (by this clause) upon the ave rages, he must at once deny that a single fraud could be corrected by such means. In fact, instead of removing the facility of perpetrating fraud, this clause would actually create it, by furnishing the motive and supplying the means for its commission. The effect of the amendment would, he repeated, supply to speculators in the market that strong additional motive to raise the averages, by pointing out the facility of their combining, in one great body, to make the price suitable to the operation which they were bent upon accomplishing, instead of being now left to act as individuals, often counteracting each other in their speculations, and for the decided advantage of the public. The proposed clause obviously pointed out this necessity of combining to bring the price up to that point, which would let in the rush of the foreign commo dity, and thereby expose the home-grower to the constant elternation between probably very high and low prices, without his being at any time able to snake a rational esti mate of his profits prospectively. He wished as much as any man could to support the landed interest ; and when lie reflected upon this question, he had done so with the knowledge that if lei had made a wrong conclusion in this disc barge of his public duty, it was one which must sen sibly involve his private interests as a landowner, it any danger arcse to the fair profits of agriculture. It was, however, the deliberate reoilt of his best consideration, that the proposed clause would extend all the evils which it professed to repair; and lie felt bound to warn their Lordships, that by adopting it they risked the great ad vantage of closing this great question for ever, and also re moved from their own seasonable control that stock of foreign corn which was hitherto safely standing for their benefit under the protection of British law. A Noble Lcrd had said that it was but just and fair to the agricul turist to let him know what he was to expect in the shape of a remunerating price for his commodity. He wished it was possible to furnish this valuable piece of information to the agriculturist ; but every reflecting man must know they had not the power . of doing so.—(Hear.)—Was it possible, from any information which either theory or practice could supply, to secure for any commodity which was subject to the variety of seasons and the influence of speculation, any thing like a fixed standard of price ? The thing was, from the experience of the last 30 years, quite impracticable ; and the only way open to them was so to regulate, adjust, and modify, the foreign admission, as to preserve a fair and steady medium price, and secure the public in the event of a contingency. That object was effected as far as wisdom and caution could accomplish it by this Bill, and the warehousing system was an essen tial part of the operating means of providing the benefit. A Noble Lord had referred to the state of Ireland as one reason why be approved of the clause, because its adoption tended to improve the quality of the food to be used by the Irish people. He (Lord Lansdowne) wished as cordially as any man could, to see an improve ment effected in the food of the people of Ireland, and that wheat should be consumed in a greater proportion by them than potatoes. But the Noble Lord in making this allu sion, really presumed on that confusion of ideas which was sometimes specially attributed to the inhabitants of the Sis ter Kingdom, when he ventured to assert that the way to tielp the poor Irish to eet flour instead of potatoes, was to r line the price of it.—(A laugh, and hear.)--Upon the ge neral bearing of this measure, he felt in common with many others who had given it their attention, that the best way of affording protection to the agricultural interests, and to prevent labourers being thrown out of employment, was to prevent that violent fluctuation in the price, which was al ways injerious to the grower and consumer. He voted for the Bill in its original state, because he most conscientiously believed it to be the best adapted for the real and solid inte r,Lats of the landowner. (The Noble Marquis then went on to correct the misunderstanding created by a passage in the letter a the President of the Board of Trade. The purport of the passage which had been brought into question was, that Government might probably agree to detain the corn now warehoused in bond, till the price should reach 665., with the understanding, that all corn imported afterwards should be subjected to the regulations of the new law.) — He appealed to the House, if this did not differ Coto colo from the proposition as stated by the Noble Duke on the cross-benches. Let their Lordships look at the acts of 1815 and 1822, and they would find that the principle of the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade pre vailed in both of those Acts. And now, in consonance with that principle, he proposed 665. •as the price upon which the corn now bonded should be released ; but that the importation should turn in future on the pivot of 605., the maximum. He pointed out the danger of driving the profits of warehousing to the ports of France and Holland, and of compelling those who had already bonded corn in this country to re-export it, and bring it in under the lower duty, which they could do with a profit. He would, therefore, vote for the Bill without the amendment. Their Lordships ought not, by clamour, to suffer them selves to be diverted from doing that which they thought essential to the public good. But they ought to take with that maxim this qualification—that it was the part of a wise Legislature to choose the proper moment for mea sures of such great importance, when the passions of the people were least agitated,—when, as at present, there was no apprehension of famine or scarcity, and no great agricul tural distress. It was no less for the benefit of the landed interest than for that of every other class within the coun try, that their Lordships should assent to the Bill. Lord REDESDALE supported the amendment, not because it was a sufficient protection for the landed inte rest, but because it was the only protection which they could hope to obtain, instead of the prohibition to which they were entitled, after the legislature had gradually de stroyed the value of the wool, cheese, butter, and all other agricultural produce, except grain. A division then took place. For the Amendment— Content 85 Proxies 48-133 Not Content 78 Proxies 44-122 Majority ll On our re-admission to the bar, . _ Lord GODERICII was understood to waive, in the pre sent stage of the Dill, any further opposition to the other amendments. Accordingly the amendments were carried seriatim, without discussion or division. The Earl of LAUDERDALE asked if Ministers in tended to acquiesce in the Amendments on the third read ing of the Bill, or to oppose them? After a moment's pause, Lord GODERICH rose and said, that the question was not regular enough in any case to require him to answer it; but he would so far inform the Noble Earl, that be himself must have more time to consider, before he could make up his mind as to what course he would take. _ Lord CLIFDEN said, that he was not responsible for the Bill, nor one of his Majesty's Ministers ; but if he were one of them, he would advise them to throw away the Bill at once, and leave all the popularity of such a proceed ing to the Noble Lords opposite. After a question from Earl STANHOPE, as to the time of the third reading, it was ordered for Friday next. Adjourned at Eleven o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, TUESDAY, JUNE 12. The House met for business this evening at the usual hour. Mr. CLERK, from the East India House, brought up a copy of the Resolutions of the Directors, u to Salaries and Pensions.—Laid on the table. A person from the King's Bench Prison brought up a return of the number of prisoners confined in the King's Bench.—Laid on the table. TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. Mr. PRICE presented a petition from Roas, for the re peal of the above Acts. Similar petitions were presented from Bury St. Edmund's, by Sir W. Rowley ; from Ho niton, Devon, by Mr. Guest; from Kirkham, Lancashire, by Mr. Stanley ; from a Congregation assembled for re ligious worship at the High-street Chapel, W arw i c k, by. Mr. 1. Wood ; from Southampton, by Mr. Fleming ; from Kent, by Sir E. Knatehbull ; and from several,places in Cornwall, by Mr. Pendarvee• Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from Dover, praying that a duty might be laid on the importa tion of Foreign Wool. BOROUGH OF PENRYN. Mr. DAVIES GILBERT presented a petition from the Inhabitants of the Hundreds adjoining Penryn, praying that the elective franchise should not be transferred to Manchester or any other City, but to the adjoining Hun dreds, which the petition stated contained above 100,000 inhabitants. The Hon. Gentleman stated, in support of the petition, that he knew the Hundreds referred to conl. tained as many independent gentlemen, as any district of the same size in England ; and that Cornwall had not more than its proportion of representatives; for though it sent a greater number of Members to this Home, a majority of those Members were in some way e,onneeted with this County.—Laid on the table. Mr. LLOYD presented a Petition from the Attornies of Ireland, praying that their case should be referred to the Committee Inquiry, to regulate their fees. Sir NEWPORT had no objection to the ap pointmentir JOHN of Irish NE wi) ofanew Commission, but strongly objected to burthening the Committee of Inquiry with new business. Mr. HUME presented a Petition from a person named Wm. Inglis, representing, that George Warren, convict ed of colouring base money, would shortly be hanged, con trary to law, unless the House interfered, and praying, that the petitioner might be allowed to state at the Bar, the il legality of the sentence against Warren.--Laid on the table. Mr. HUME moved for Returns of the number of Insol vents discharged from the year ISIS to the present time, specifying the number in each year.—Ordered. Mr. HUME presented a petition from Mr. Gourlay, praying an inquiry into the Court of Chancery, and all the Courts of Law. , Mr. HUME presented a petition from the Catholics and 'Protestants of Blackburn, praying for a diminution of taxes of the Irish Church Establishments, for the adjust ment of the National Debt, for the abolition of pensions and sinecures, for the restoration of church property to its :original uses, and for a complete and cc tstitutional reform of the House of Commons. The Hon. Gentleman said, he concurred in all the prayers of the petitions, and parti cularly the last. ROBERT GOURLAY. Mr. HUME presented a Petition from Mr. Robert Gourlay, prating that new Commissioners, composed of Imen of talent, might be appointed to inquire into all the ,Courts of Equity and Law in the country. The petitioner had been engaged in litigation since 1802, with the Duke of Somerset, and he was one of those many persons who had suffered most severely and ruinously, from the delays of the Courts here. PETITION FROM CANADA. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the Inhabitants of the Province of Upper Canada, praying that the orders of Lord Bathurst should he carried into execution with re spect to the naturalization of persons resident in Canada seven years, and their eligibility to office. Mr. W. HORTON said the petitioners really laboured under a grievance by an error which crept into one Act of Parliament, and he should take the earliest opportunity of bringing in a short Bill to amend the former Act. In fact, he should give notice to that effect in the course of the evening. Lord CLIFDEN presented a petition from Canterbury, complaining, tha. one of their representatives (Stephen Lushington) had accepted the office of Governor of Madras, without resigning his seat, and that they under stood it was his intention to leave the country, in which cage the City of Canterbury would be but half represented. The Noble Lord disclaimed all feelings of personal hostility in the presentation of the petition. Mr. LUSHINGTON acquitted the Noble Lord of any improper feelings towards him, but the Noble Lord well knew that the petition came from persons uniformly opposed to him (Mr. Lushington.) The petitioners did not form above one fortieth part of his constituent•, and from the other part of the Electors of Canterbury he heard nothing. He was deeply impressed with gratitude for favours conferred on him by the Electors of Canterbury, and if he received any intimation that it was the wish of a majority of the electors that he should resign his seat, he would con sider it his duty to accede to that wish. He believed, however, that the contrary was the fact. As it had been insinuated that his acceptance of the Government of Madras resulted from an indisposition to serve under the present Government at home, he felt it his duty to state that the Government enjoyed his fullest confidence, and that he thought no better means could be devised for carrying into effect the principles of Lord Liverpool's Government, than the appointment of his Right Hon. Friend to the situation of First Lord of the Treasury.— (Cheers.) Sir J. NEWPORT was clearly of opinion, that, as the law now stood, such an appointment as thtt in question did not vacate a seat in the House of Commons ; and instanced the case of Sir Evan Nepean, whose seat was not vacated until long after he had proceeded to India.—The petition was then ordered to be printed. PENRYN. A Message from the House of Lords requested the com munication to their Lordships of the minutes of the evi dence heard at the Bar of the House of Commons on the Penryn Disfranchisement Bill. The Messengers were in formed that the House would return an answer by Messen gers of their own. TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. Petitions fron► PrOLt7tant Dissenters, praying re.• the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, were presented by Mr. Abercromby from .Calve ; and by Mr. Malisolm, from Portsmouth, Gosport, &c. Mr. W. SMITH had a petition to present, praying the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, which might be said to proceed emphatically from the persons whose opi nions, as a Noble Lord recently stated, had induced that Noble Lord to withdraw its motion on that subject. Al though it was signed by only about 130, or 140 individuals, yet representing as they did numerons congregations, the petition might fairly be - described as signed by many thou sand persona. The petition was of considerable length ; but, containing, as it did, the protest and manifesto as al were of the Protestant Dissenters of the kingdom, in de fence of their rights, deserved the most serious attention of the House. The petition was then brought up and read. It pur ported to he the petition of the Deputies of the several Congregations of Protestant Dissenters, of the three de nominations of Baptists, Unitarians, and Independents, within twelve miles of London.—Ordered to be printed. SPITALFIELDS WEAVERS. Mr. E. DAVENPORT presented a petition from a class of poor, but industrious inhabitants of the Metropolis, the operative Silk Weavers of Spitalfields, praying for re lief from the greatest grievance under which any portion of the community could labour ; namely, inadequate remune ration for their labour. They admitted that there was an improvement in the trade generally ; but expressed their doubts of its continuance, and their conviction of the little , benefit which that improvement would occasion to the working classes, while the masters, by combination, had the power of diminishing the rate of wages. They solicited, Parliament to enact a law, making agreements with respect, to wages between the masters and the journeymen, duly convened, imperative on both parties. For his own part he thought that any measure of that kind would be, merely a palliative, and not a corrective of the evil, which,, in his opinion (as we understood the Honourable Gen. tleman), principally resided in the state of the cur rency. He could never understand how it was possible to withdraw a considerable portion of the currency in the manner in which it had been withdrawn, without para lyzing all the industry of the country. The Act provid-, ing for the abolition of one-pound notes bad already pro duced the greatest distress, and eighteen months, were still to elapse before the whole of the evil would be rendered manifest. If that evil were not neutralized by some mea sure of a counteracting tendency, lie was persuaded that it would arrive at a most alarming height. It was extra ordinary to heat• the contradictory opinions on this impor tant subject. While, in the memorable debate which, three years ago, took place respecting it, one of the Mi nisters of the Crown asserted that the question of the cur rency was settled, a Bank Director, a man of great ability and experience, declared that so far was the question from being settled, that the manner in which, it was left was fraught with the utmost danger, and would speedily re quire some alteration in the law. Was it not incumbent on the House to sift to the bottom such opposite opinions on a subject of such vital importance ? Various reasons had been pressed upon him, but in rain, to induce him to withdraw his notice of a motion for Thursday next, for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the causes of the severe distress which had afflicted the corn mercial and industrious classes of the community during the last and present years. However unwillingly, in some respects, he was determined to do his duty, by persevering in that motion. In taking this course, he was not actuated by the slightest hostility to his Majesty's Government. For some years past, the conduct of that Government had been such as to conciliate his support. It was his intention to support the measures of his Majesty's present Govern ment, whenever his reason and his conscience enabled him to do so. _ _ _ _ —.. The Petition was brought up, read, and ordered to b• printed. TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. Petitions from Protestant Dissenters, praying for the Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, were presentedi by Lord Milton, from Halifax, Sudbury, and various other places; by Mr. Western (who said he joined most cordially in the prayer of the petitioners), from twelve districts in Essex ; by Mr. W. Horton, from Newcastle-under-Line ; by Lord Stanley, from Manchester; by Lord William Ben.. tinck, from King's Lynn, and five other places in Norfolk; by Mr. Lluskisson, from Bethseda Chapel, and seven other c ongregations in Liverpool; and by Mr. Heathcote (whp also expressed his cordial concurrence in the prayer of th petitioners), from Boston. The last Gentleman also prep sented a petition from a most respectable body of the Prof- testant inhabitants of Boston, to the same effect. • WOOL. Mr. WESTERN presented a petition from the owners and occupiers of land,in the neighbourhood of Marlborough? complaining that English Wool was unsaleable at a rerating price; and praying the House to re-impose such duties on Foreign Wool as, while they would not injure the manufacturer, would protect the grower. The Hon. Member said a few words in support of the prayer of the petition ; which was then brought up, read, and ordered to be printed. LAW OF ENTAIL. Mr. KENNEDY, adverting to a subject which was of great importance in his part of the country, namely, the Law of Entail, gave notice that, in compliance with the feelings of a number of persons who were much interested respecting it, be would, early in the next Session of Par liament, propose a measure remedial of some of the evils which at present attended that Law. PEOPLE OF COLOUR. Dr. LUSHINGTON, in riling to make his Motion respecting the People of Colour in the West Indies, ob served, that there were few Members of that House, except those who had local connexions with the West Indies, who had any idea of the number, wealth, and importance of the description of individuals whose Petition he was about to present, and whose cause he meant to advocete. The House had probably very little idea of the relative numbers of the different classes of the population in our West India Islands—in Jamaica for instance. In the statement he was about to make, he could assure the-House, that if any inaccuracy existed, it was in favour of the side to which he was opposed, and not in favour of that which he was desirous of supporting. In Jamaica, by far the most im portant of our Colonies, the population was estimated to be as follows : Whites Free People of Cclour 30,000 Free Blacks lO,OOO Blacks 34Q000 Such were the relative numbers as estimated in 1826. Every hour increased the number of the brown, and de creased the white population; and that for the plainest !possible reasons. In the first place, the climate was hos tile to whites, who, being born in Europe, transferred themselves to the West Indies. So hostile, indeed, that if the details of the mortality which prevailed among the new corners could be displayed to the House, they would regard them with horror. In the second place the whites who went to the West India Islands were principally males, few females resorting thither for the purpose of taking up their residence. These two causeswere perpetually operating to diminish the white part of the population. The brown !part of the population, on the contrary, was increasing with !great rapidity. It had been declared by Bryan Edwards, land by every other author who had treated of the West In dies, that of all the races by which those islands were in habited, there were none so healthy, so free from tendency ! to disease, and so long lived, as the mixed part of thepopu ilation. They were allowed, on all hands, to be peculiarly :strong and hardy. But if it was true, as he was persuaded lit was, that the brown population, as compared with the ;blacks and the whites, was rapidly increasing, it was a cir cumstance of no small importance, and one which, in the course of time, and that at no very distant period, would imperatively demand the attention of Parliament. For let 'not the House suppose that this class of the West India population was low, degraded, or destitute. In Jamaica the brown population was supposed to be worth at least three millions sterling. He had been told by some, that they were worth five millions ; but he took three millions as the most moderate calculation. To show how wealth accumulated among them, he would mention a few in stances of sums that had been bequeathed in several cases. A Dr. Dickenson had left 120,000/. ; a Mr. Swaney, 150,0001. ; a Mr. Kingall 200,000/. ; a Mr. Benjamin • Scott 250,000/. In St. James's Parish, Jamaica, alone, three individuals who had signed the petition in his hand ! were said to be worth together above 120,0001. Not only were the people of colour wealthy, but they possessed ex tensive landed property. With the exception of one estate (belonging to the Hon. Member for Surrey), all the pi mento plantations were in their hands. They also had a great number of the coffee plantations. Many of the houses in Kingston and the other towns in Jamaica belonged to them. Such was the condition, such the respectability, of a race who had nevertheless been for a loug period deprived of those rights originally conferred upon them by charter. It was declared by all the original charters granted to the West India Islands, "'1 hat all children of whites born on the island should be from their birtl , free denizens of England ; holding the same privileges as free-born citizens of England." Such was the practice for a considerable time. At last a practice grew up by which the pri vilege of British subjects was taken away from the offspring of white men by brown or black women. In progress of time, the Acts of the Colonial As semblies to this effect received the sanction of the mother country. Strange to say, in the year 1711 a statute was passed disabling the individuals in question from holding public situations. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman here read the opinion given at that period on the subject by Lord Chancellor West ; who, while he allowed that slaves might be treated as ti,eir owners thought proper to treat them, denied that it could be just to exclude free persons of colour from the privileges of the other free inhabitants of the Colonies. No man could bequeath to a child of co • lour more than 1,400/. These laws were contrary to all principles of justice, and an outrage on every natural feel ing. It was found in practice impossible to continue them amongst any society of human beings, whatever might be their principles or their feelings. Immediately after this, he found an Act, passed in 1762, to enable one W. F. Brown to bequeath his property to his children. In 1784, an Act was passed to permit a woman of colour to leave her pro perty to her child. He should now allude to the law which required that a certain number of white persons should be kept upon every estate, and which imposed a penalty when the estate was the property of the free men of colour. The Government at home rejected this Act, as it amounted to a very severe tax upon absentees. But this objection was attempted to be overcome or avoided, by passing similar Acts repeatedly; and it was only six months ago that the Governor of Jamaica, the Duke of Manchester, was obliged to withhold his assent from such a Pill, upon the ground of its operating as a tax upon persons residing out of the Colony. IR 1786, immediately after the termination of the Maroon war, the free men of colour were allowed to bear testimony against whites in cases of assaults. They were not allowed to produce collateral testimony, and they were to be transported, if guilty of perjury. Lord Bal carras, the then Governor, was an eye witness to a case of the most atrocious assau't upon a person of colour by a white inhabitant, but he found himself unable to convict the culprit, or to punish the outrage. It was afterwards, in re ward for the important services rendered by the people of colour in the Maroon war, that the privilege was conferred upon them of giving evidence against the whites in cases of assault. In 1813 a great alteration took place in the state of the black and coloured population. Their condi tion was materially improved by certain concessions made to them by the House of Assembly, though he regretted to say that the boon bad not been granted with the liberality he could have wished. The House of Assembly passed an Act, by which they gave certain privileges to free per sons of colour, upon their taking out what were called privilege papers. In 1816 an Act passed to enable free people of colour to navigate their own vessels, and to drive their own carts and hackney coaches. From this Act a pretty good opinion might be formed of their previous con dition. Bryan Edwards, alluding to their sufferings, had said, " The mischief of the rigour of the law is, that it tends to degrade them in their own eyes and in the eyes of the community; it is carried so far as to make them wretched in themselves, and useless to others." In 1823 a petition was presented to the House of Assembly, signed by all the principal people of colour in the island. It com plained that they were not allowed to participate in any of the advantages of Government. In 1826 there were unequivocal signs that there had been a great progress in public opinion both in the House of Assembly amongst the persons of colour, and even amongst the slaves themselves. The inhabitants of the two parishes of St. James and St. Elizabeth, petitioned the House of Assembly in favour of concessions to the people of colour. It was impossible for any petitions to have contained more sound principles, or to have expressed them in better language. But the House of Assembly rejected the petitions. They rejected every measure proposed, but they turned round and con ferred the whole of the privileges prayed for in those peti tions upon the Jews. Yet the Jews had never petitioned upon the subject. He meant no offence to the Jews ; he was far from entertaining the unjust, absurd, and mischie vous prejudices which existed against them. He could not, however, refrain from regretting that the House of Assem bly should have extended to them those privileges which they had refused to the free men of colour, who were christians, and who, even in point of complexion, could scarcely be distinguished from the Whites themselves. Some of the free people had, however, been selected, and had conferred upon them all the privileges of British subjects. Facilities were given to individuals to obtain these privi leges by Private Bills, the fees upon passing which through the House were dispensed with. But many persons were above suing for these privileges, upon such terms. What would be thought of the Government of England, if they attempted to introduce a practice of bringing in Bills, one by one, to emancipate the Catholics ? (Hear, hear.) The free men of colour were still excluded fron; sitting upon juries, from holding public offices, and from any exercise of the elective franchise. It was the same in almost all the West India Islands. There were certain public schools in theisland of Jamaica, which were supported by taxes levied equally on blacks, whites, and persons of every shade of colour. - With the exception of the Parisliof St. James; pereons of eolour were excluded from all such, schools. Even in St. James, the system wee: most unjust h He found that in that parish there were '7O free persons f),f,, Colour edacated, at an average charge of five pounds of eae net whilst six white persons were educated at the ext were less than one thousand pounds. Free persons of c; Ileur e prevented from serving upon juries, and the corners ce ;},, an impossibility for any person of that descriptica trial,ie taro justice against a white. He would allude to ai e , sr which two persons, named James Mitchell and 1716-eis Mitchell, bore a most conspicuous part. The broths r at the present Attorney-General (Sir James Scarlett) was, , the time, the person before whom the cause was tried-a:2 He charged the Jury in strong language, but they refit' 'to obey. The Learned Judge had said that the evidence of Hector Mitchell ought not to have been received; B ° 6 the House would not differ from this opinion when the/ were told that the witness, at the outset, had poeitivelf refused to give his testimony at all, if he were not allovect to give it in his own way, and just as he thought pro P e r :. This was acceded to him, and he accordingly did give b , 19 1 ' evidence in a way peculiar to himself, and contrary to a" the principles of testimony acknowledged in our jurispr, dence. He ran on in a confusion of hearsay evidence! $ ll although contradicted by six other witnesses, +he 311 1 notwithstanding this, and notwithstanding the opinio n ° the Judge, gave their verdict against the man of colour, and in favour of the person of their own complexion. strong was the case, that the Judge, without being aPP'LI • to, immediately declared that he would grant a new V,' ' if the aggrieved party desired it. But the anfcrtunateP la '!s tiff replied, "`What trill it avail me to have an irnPal e t ee ' Judge, or excellent Counsel? the Jury will stilt be sv°"'" men, and I have no chance of success." The want of a sob' cient number of %dike men to form Juries often occas ion a most strange, if not ridiculous practice. It frequently hap' i pened that they could not procure a sufficient number ; • white men to form a Coroner's Inquest. In such c ases was the practice at Kingston to send to the barracks, procstre soldiers or to the ships to get sailors to conve rt in g 9 Jurymen. He had taken care to be correct in what he *sated, and his views were not the result of one single in i ‘ stance, but of cases taken indifferently from time to tuna ' ': Free people of colour were compelled by law to serv e in t he Militia of Jamaica, but they could not rise hig her than tiles! rank of sergeant. Thus a free man of colour, possessed 0: ri 100,0001. might be commanded by his clerk. It Ini g h be suppo s ed that the natural effect of such a system o f treat' mcnt would be to oblige the people of colour to throw the selves lar ge ly u p on th e p u blic funds for support. $ o t eo , from this b e i ng th e case , it w a s principally the whites were obliged to resor t t o public charity. In Kingston , t o proportion was as ten to one. The number of brown s "..,e greater than the blacks, and yet they had to contend If:1 3 all these restrictions. The proportionate allowances to ka different classes were most unjust. Thus, to destitute bl 3c tr e wax allowed 55., to browns 6 s. Sd., and to pauper iv''' e o from ten to twenty shillings. It might be supposed t ee the system would have the effect of demoralizing the ibi brown population ; hut he found the offences committ eu the white population to exceed those charged against P e lf sons of colour. In the course of the last forty years, four brown persons had been executed, whilst of the ill` j e , population the instances were trusre frequent. After Maroon war, the House of Assembly passed a vote of the to the free people of colour, for their ,services duri n gl dangerous conflict. In no instance had they - ever been chlie with disloyalty, although the treatment they - had met de might have misled their passions, and they had 2n their 11-!litte a tremendous . power. The Militia of the isiao of not less than .ten thousand men, of which a;:out eel' thousand were persons of colour. There were so done more that . two thousand regular troops up* ti', island. He trusted that the House would undertake t ee measures as were likely to remedy the mischief. le scandalous effect of the present system was, to induce t daughters of persons of colour to live in a state of prt tuition to the whites. The policy of Jamaica was to 0 ;,, courage marriage in any shape, and prostitution was l o t core:neon than could be conceived. If a brown roao e 'et, an illegitimate child by a white woman, it might .it! ate the parent's property ; but if he married her, his legit' lo ,. lo child would be disfranchised. This was practically a premium upon concubinage, and a penalty upon riage. The absurdity of the laws could not adroi t 1 doubt. The children of slaves might be slaves in virtu • ° re the laws of property, but the children of brown person' r he , deprived of their privilegee, for no other reason h e tt ", ge s cause their complexion happened not to be white. "' t b a g the duty of the Government to remedy some of th ese lio y conveniences. He, however, would rather not rePre" e, particular measure, for he thought it desirable that te', House of Assembly should have another opportun it y of dre; cussing the subject. So much did he consider the ri dieW t; the injustice, the oppression under which these uneortOP . people were labouring ; so urgent was the necessity fo r , lief, so replete with danger was the continuance of the 11 ; tern, that he should consider it his bounden duty, in f e, „ a " -;1 Session of Parliament, if his hope of something effer ee e being accomplished were not realized, to renew the subs ea t and to endeavour to bring the House to some ag ree : l3 oe upon the measures of remedy proper to be pursue ,. sm iy had another petition to present from a person so r- se distinguishable from himself in point of conaplexion• comprehensive and uncompromising were these law/. y . the restrictions extended to persons of colour of every f . j d time. They were not confined to the blacks or regre e° lo , Africa, hut they extended to the people of colour of 13 ' Ile rice, anu even to every variety of the Indian race• o f could not help availing himself of the present moro e°l oo l an opportunity to allude to the late deportation of Per of colour from Jamaica. He had investigated the 02 " f o r and he entertained not the shadow of a doubt as to th o e I ture of that transaction. He was willing at the P ir 'itir moment to postpone this case, as he was aware, that sine, changes incidental to the illness of the Earl of Live it had been impossible for Ministers to have made t hv ie; selves perfect masters of the subject. It was necegog the character of public justice that the House shou l ":01 1 this case, protect the injured. He should bring { nest the subject in the ensuing Session of Parliament , the some practical measure was introduced likely to obt 4 ' object he had in view. etev The petition was brought up and read. Upon the q tion that it be printed, Mr. PALLMER said lie should like to know if the jets Member wished to urge that there should be an unretr at ed freedom of the Negro population in the West Jo- 6 10 the present moment? The Hon. Member, after g oe r through a lengthened detail, expressed a hope that this g or ete tion would, upon another occasion, receinethe count ° and support of Go- - srnment. A biab Mr. BROUGHAM said, that from the manner in eo efs Hon. Members thought proper to bring forward qu e it was impossible to do justice to the parties, or plar t questi - n fairly before the House. In the first place I t beig alleged that the Courts of Law were open, and that tbet who wished might enter thee. To this he answereatz.4 they might be entered by those who were sure of obis w oo s suits of them, but by none else, unless they had the ti? ed of paying a heavy expence. An Hon. Member had, ll j oe early stage of the discussion, t a lk e d of a Jury of lnee people, by whom he would consent to be tried. Ile led lieved that the Hon. Member would not wish to be co r by a Jury of Irish or of Scotch, under similar Gi r o e lr stations. The Hon. and Learned Member went on , t sHereved,idthantotit careSvae I,ovlblyetthoertaltkheofbalapckusrezlzitt;setri4%oo3o, included in the calculations made by some HO' 0 00 e r leers ; the question, in his view, was, whether SOf er ito' 40,000 persons, who had been described to be f ill e etir rious individuals, were receiving and deserving oft the° tenance and support? Was it to be expected 'Thin 30,000 men of colour, some of whom had i g e nt ss ° ney enough to entitle them to enter the outer an a ttorney's office, should be able to sustain the d e ere ,.. ; of naturalization, by going through all the fortu s a n d monies of West India Legislature? It was °DIY - rdef t ,'• ' I p o e r l g a e i l n o o; B l :s m it p t ilandne,g andon a wheno Jury. utl only ye practicabley. h founda F d orh is the rpeamr t e, d m yb e ef e p:tb thani 'o s :dio wl ' 1 : 41 a . : hag this charge, they were to be entitled to the; l :ped"` . mous and crying evil, and it was nothing less eg o deg° t o lately inconsistent and absurd to expect that t" s i ve cots i o persons should go through the long and eg iell ec ied, °° „bet pointed out. No man alive, he was Pelt Goa ;ea drive that body to such a course; he hoped 7; o s o_,l ;oic they would never be satisfied with it, and he ' 3 ..0 cP: re . be disappointed, if he ever heard that 30,000Z;ejor ere themselves free, had deigned even to look at e r e w si tod commended by the Honourable Member va . , he be tl ` w r as fore rejoiced to listen to the promised always be happy when it was brought fore oti ver: d i , en d pm t ha raised the Hon. Member success if he peree ver o he would persevere need not be doubted by k. s i tho res ui nlijo was acquainted with him; a triumph must "; d oe. , : 4 , 6 4 patient and unceasing exertions in so good 00 . C 4— e ,e felt somewhat grieved at hearing that hie eear d the ea . :, (Dr. Lushington) was not able to bring forn on; ,17; e of the Duke of Manchester in the present S es3' . an t 0,!1,,, had laboured more zealously or anxiouslyaelled : h e Oa, than his Hon. Friend bad done upon thatir.tr,voolbrlt Brougham) would state what his Hon.}... iic fs , e hatet e would not perthit him to mention, that w ith , of the evidence, with comment', tra'r eeee pe via; Iskill of a lawyer and the profouied !" I '..i a touOttl of a Statesman and a PhilantkrOPlStiiiiior lto no lees than between three hundred And *se . printed pages. His industry and dill acs .. 1 , 1 7 1 46.eid'0 r been almost incredible. He(Mr. Broughatn) tot