The Sun. — London, England, 1825-05-21 00:00:00

_. • but not so hem both in and out of , ---- decision to another ; so—to make excuses of all kinds foe t .Apeseal open to him from one good and he had no doubt it required all his great ingenuity to do the. subject in the British colonies, Ind yet who had only th l e teo I[their h h t to attempt in England seist in prised the whole Indian ernore.,. .1 4- r e y_ P Council to appeal to, and the I , s) *hat importance then was it net, u 1 which , be it remembered , . that the Privy Council some of udernent there was tine n matters of law, es debate p e—o te t em t a the i House — to correspond back and forwards with these A laugh .Ihear")—then to manage matters h in rchects would be just as much as his head was . hould be so composed for its decision 1 1 ued all day with the lawyers, but perspi- . in Parliament , ''.. io. be enabled to adjudicate with leg ag yet all this for 6,0001. a-yearl T e gone y r.ecision and roily . 1 He had known in times ruin to attend precip . b P (for he spoke not of puisne j(tidges,w ereonaynpd when the (Laughter)—not so satisfactorily, indeed, precipitate decisions of the Foreign Secretary . wasp lagu . ed with the present), the greatest it be otherwise, tOe Council. How, indeed, could upon other matters, the lawyers Right acute ithfortheerthearlipanrtlygh, tror members were -persons, however ahit of discriminating in Hon a h d lithdade ofrtennotechwanheeen otfhegyaingrinagppalecaduwseithbyddleay, lsoult whose minds were not in the daily h for the puisne judges : he would pro ; rohenssional experience into the a-year was quite enough to lop off 5001. from the resolution of 5,500.. • teehenical matters of nice legal ce struction, and of bringing . Gentleman o by night. On the whole, he thought 5,0 0 • that particular koowledge and p , did not always arise ; for while . a e year e and h eonslideration which the case essentially' required. He knew pose then, at once, e n a e anod assistance of his Hon. and Learned Friend near him. that this cause of complaint did oubt in this reduction he should have .Shir Wm. Grant attended the Priv y feet constitution, both by na- . Council, they were sure of the Of the most per himself. -MSCARLETT—" No, indeed, you shall not."—(Loud •oe aid of a lawyer . was pOSSible to form of man—one of laughter.) _:ire and education, that it . ional I Let him not be told of the refusal of profess the greatest and most upri th g h t had not always the aid of his —Wear .) characters that ever adorned the Mr. BROUGHAM said, well, then, he must do it beneh—(Hear !)--bnt e 1 I would not take it ; but there were two great knowledge and talenSrfoicr he remembered that at the gentlemen t o as cend to the bench for such a salary. It was easy Scarlet[) and Sir Samuel Romilly ways . of making time when Sir Win. Grant for some reason declined attending for a lawyer kt to u the Privy Council, he (Mr. sa th Y e offer, which reminded him of an observe there , had that it was one had on one occasion to attend• and he recollected thet !ion of saida h a uo g eous friend, w th h m o g was to also ak of a I tt a e u pr to of t e a ss k i e on a , the bottle was on the table before him, and another is to o wheny "Sir , resent thought they should have seven appeals were at that time decided quite contrary to tie dram way in which all the lawyers sa e h ou ? w " il ---( 1 Dom, Now, would it dot be , byemag them members of the p well to call upon retired JudgesyAoulaaollgoiwt. re res y the b and then they would see who would refuse it. e ttp ce p l o la m r tm for en a t fl h . flask to ta ' assist an these occasions' a b much less than that on the feted to l bar, ( )—meOtonlseynledt to the independence of the judges, the King had properly Coanoil ? The labour would a retired Judge could generally As tot he looked upon it as the best means of upholding the bench, and the ditty such as f tigues. In this view he wished said,. that the administration of justice and alsc as being the discharge without oppressive allowances. Before he sat down dignety o d _ cive to the honour of the drown. Here the Hon. _ to be liberal in the reuretnent a opportunity to have the resolution most conducive u d (lend an referred to the message from the late he was anxious to ask for an opinion to rob the Chief Jus- and Learne l. nt, which made the judges not removable on re-considered, which went in his a fund, out of which to King to.Paroia thefParliament, Crown, and _,pointed out the popular mistake d oe of a part of his income, to create the demisefor rendering the could he propose such are- to George 111. the first step the puisne Judges. When which attributed . AS takeu by King William, a y hidges independent, whereas it w. consideration ? E uER doubted whe- J K . o only altering the Act of Parliament to make The Clieti NCEI,LOR of the EXCH Q stood before the House, the late in, . survive the demise of the Crown. The next point to ther it was competent, as the questionl r salary, though a ream-- them sur would direct the attention of the House was the to propose the increase of any permu t e He was, however, which he translation of judges from one office to an den was practicable consistent with l orm. impropriety of the should have the op - for promotion on the bench; as' in the • ious the Ron. and Learned Gent eman other. This looking up make men look rather to their maker anx he (the Chancellor of the Ex. orally tended to time portunity he-required, although respecting the salary of church, nature public good. He would not say that within his t chequer) retained his original opinion than to the he had seen any had consequences the Chief Justice. by way of increaseand ex silence p . .certainly never obtain such promotion—he had _ The SPEAKER said, that no alteration ambition to . the only spoke of•roceedings.their criminal judges, (he . k d in this stage their p seen it to operate amongl e of salary could be propose between the CHANCELLOR andnot of the office of Chancellor, which being paw then took place, of them, must of course more expose the A conversation ETT Um and Mr. SCARL v . i , . dicta andpartly political, of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. Bno report was brought up. On Joule, . fl nee —among them he certainly had never ob • t of form, when the possessor to in ue ) as an honest man, say that upon the poinJudges • ries of the being put served it. He could not, However, the resolution respecting the sale •torte ri effect on some judges front front the Chair, forward the subject of he had not sometimes seen a table bias—he admitted it to b -n are, and unaccoun Mr. BROUGHAM rose to bring the proposed arrangement Particular .rcumstances—but g: erally the bench was which he had given notice respectingf the Judges from one Judi- from peculiar filled. Still the Crown ought, for its own sake, to of the salaries, and the translation o o re-open the whole admirably fille of tendency to which lie alluded, or the pos cial office . to another—in fact, t exception in all remove the sort existence. If they wished to preserve the question. He agreed without a__ H singled Learned Friend, sibility of its in the public esteem, they ought to put that had just fallen from his on. tu a nities and profound purity of the judges He foresaw the difficulty which would whose great experince, varied oppor them above suspicion. I entitled him to great proposition, and the choice which would, be knowledge upon such matters, ju h s e t y could assure the House, be opposed to his the positive prohibition to translate a per weight in this discussion. It was, left to him between . retiring salaries of thedefault of finding any candidate so conipe the universal opinion at the bar, that the son of high merit in to their full emolu - once in half a century, and the other Judges ought to bear a nearer proportion tent, which might occur .. thought the proposed ded of constant translation. Between those meats ; he was therefore one of those who danger which he dreaded the arrange- the first. He did not wish to be driven scale was a bad one, and particularly respecting give up so much vale- two evils, he would elect embrace, by a re- He rather chose to merit for the Chief-Justice, who was to as 800/. addi- to a legislative remedy. h . ci le which had, in the very same able patronage for so inadequate a compensation o f solution of the House, t eprin p . of that brilliant act of the dunes comparison between the adopted for the basis tional a-year. There was no manner, been . a . . of the utmost import- d in the preamble the same intention which rotesse the chief and puisne Judges., and it was _ _ el' enity of last rogn,, p ofsecuring the independence of the so placed, from the le import which he now held—that ace that the former should be thatproper sway which the w who was promoted to be case of Baron Eyre, his station, in a capacity to exercise andwhich could not be judges. The then Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, was, due discharge of• business required,Jed es were to be nearly Chief Baron, and one of the kind up to that period. He practically effected, if the four sitting • g . man conversant in the business he believed, the only d • of the translation of a Master nfessed have less rent of co.ortlinate influence. Every it was that the chief would, heco , In the latter case, the individual of the Courts must be aware how useful intrinsic authority, so -as of the Rolls to the same office. feel the conflict of interest and duty as in should be invested with extrinsic arel of the Courts. The Was not so likely He to would have no predispositions as to questions of to keep a.proper sway over the proceedings business must be done, a the former. libel—hewould have no peculiar feelings acquired front fact was, that in any Court where which should be taken by the p a oli deal I habits in administering the law of high treason—not great deal depended on the lead therefore, in dimishing the .P dicia te eat questions which affected the interests chief Judge. Whatever was done, Pro ]Salo diminish that in any of 1 fi r e revenue, or the tithes. H is wish was, tr emoluments of the Chief-Justice, must p ed with that of the puisne i of the Cr t o o w e i m , emancipate them altogether front any bias on their sway in kind and station, as couairar ood working of the business I however, from any suspicion of bias in the public mind.. l. Judges, with whic • h it was for the g . ChiefJuetice I judgment, and d. Besides a' • He did not recollect any other 'instance of this kind of trans a . of the court he ought to be clothe tit of business peculiar Ithe the time of the Regency. But of late years _ had, as he had already stated, a quan Y than the other judges; I lion up to had increased, so that in thirteen years there had to himself, beyond all comparison greaterd in Lord Ellenborough's I practice less than six acts of judicial translation. This was ' let them remember how it amouote to dispose of a Guildhal4 beennoThe first of these cases was that of Sit V. Gibbs, time, when on one occasion he had he did to the astonishment enormous.of very strong political character ; and therefore, the paper, containing 588 whichcauses,. The business was. not now a Man liable in a considerable degree to and admiration of the profession. calculation, as five times greater than . ordinary to which his observations referred, though, - so great as it was then, but still it was influence . r eld • the proportion was as 60 to l admitted, in practice a very pure, impar in the time of Lord 3lansfie , 1 heavier duties which he very wiling y enlightened Judge. Ile was Attorney-General in 350. When he spoke of the superior and tiol, and ed not to be consi-I n warm ade a Puisne Judge of the devolved upon the Chief Justice lfo.begg very troublous timfe ; h th! ....i.rer.. , rite irtailrcaiifiTs.. ny f whom (par ep-hweedieen.wwinnAftePYtlerik talP2Vors ° Pries sittings feria] side)—no man more readily admitted his hgh qualities . from nine o'clock every morning until four o'clock, the con- andhulicialexcellence, his eminence as a lawyer, and hisainiable - scant taking down of evidence, which was so much more him- disposition. He was first a Master in Chancery, then a Puisne rious than merely hearing arguments at the bar—this business Baron of the Exchequer, then Chief Baron. And here he could of what Mr. Bentham would call " single seated justice." tell not observe how groundless was the fears of not heingable to heavily and laboriouslyupon them, and the Chief' had alw a ys get able men to accept these offices. A Master in Chancery . the great responsibility of di s p a tchi ng it. Asa proof of th e su - I had one of the easiest and most l ucra ti ve s it ua ti ons un d er t h e perior sway which attached to the Chief Justice in proceeding Crnwn ; and yet Chief Baron Thompson gave up all the de with business, he remembered that shortly before Lord Ellen- lights and advantages of it to go into the Exchequer, one of - borough retired, one or two of the Puisne Judges were in the the dullest Courts in the universe—(laughter)—to attend the Old - habit of sitting for him by turns, at Nisi Prins ; but, vexed Bailey, and to drudge upon the circuit, he (111 r. Brougham) ene morning at the accumulating arrear of business, his Lorin having seen him upon the northern circuit in his turn for many • Ail), as if by a sudden illUmination which was to shine out years. At that time, too, the salaries were much less than at before his mental light became eclipsed for ever, resumed his present. The next case was that of Baron Richards, first So place in Court, and swept away in the course of that single licitor-General, then Puisne Baron, then Chief. Mr. Abbott, sitting 17 causes, which stood in the way of the regular and the present Chief Justice, was a puisne judge. He admitted quick dispatch of business. It was this consideration of the that no man more able, more perfectly competent in all re - value and the great additional labour of the Chief Judge,. spects, could have been chosen. .Justice Dallas was the sixth . which induced him to say that 800/. a year additional w as no case; and that of Justice Best was the seventh, and all in 13 compensation for the office—no remuneration for the proposed years. Why, it was vain to talk of any other rule: this was , transfer of its patronage (containing, among others, two offices become the common practice. In his opinion this was the which sold for 20,000/.): and therefore he complained.— wrong course : they ought not to put the judges in that situa His next objection to the scale was re g arding the Vice- tion in which tran s l a tion pl ace d t h e bi s h ops, w h ere t h e i r duty - - Chancellor—an office now filled by Sir John Leach, than to the public and to their patrons must conflict with each other. whom there was not in the profession a more learned A year ago every chief in Westminster-hall had been promoted . ornament. The Lord Chancellor was of course a learned from an inferior judgeship. - The Lord Chancellor had been man—a very learned man—he must be deemed the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. Chief Justice. Abbott had most learned of the lawyers ; but still the value of been puisne of his Court. Chief Justice Dallas and Best, and all these acquirements must be measured by their pub- Chief Baron Richards, had all held places as puisne judges. lie utility, and that almost entirely consisted in their applica- Every one of the Arch-Judges had been a common judge . lion to the dispatch of business ; it was there that the ITice- translated, as an Archbishop was generally made from a 13i. Chancellor shone conspicuous, for lie did nothing else but shop. This ought not to appertain to the appointment of a _ decide causes. He sat in his Court, not from eleven till two judge, who was to be watched by a jealous bar and a no less o' dock, but from ten till four—ay, and lie used to come down jealous public. Men were but men. It was not enough that while suffering excruciating torments from indisposition, and those who held that sacred office should be put out of the way when his physician said that he was fitter for his bed than for of temptation—they ought to be placed above the suspicion of the bench—nevertheless, the Vice-Chancellor was in his Court, it. Reverting to the difficulty which he had before mentioned, and dispatching . business. He was, therefore, to all intents , he preferred shutting out the promotion of the most deserving and purposes, a Judge, if the person deserved that name who judge once in 50 years, awl amidst a dearth of the req u i s it e was really a judger—(A laugh.)—lle knew many who thought talent, to leaving the subject so open to j ea l ous a ni ma d vers i on . so. and even those who would rather run the risk of having He meant no offnce to any one man—he spoke theoretically: their causes hastily decided before the Vice-Chancellor, than He went by his knowledge of human nature. He proposed to never haie them decided at all elsewhere. And yet thi s w as insert in the resolution—" Whereas it is expedient to secure ••. the Judge whose salary in the scale was to bear no adequate the independence of the judges by providing them adequate sa - proportion to that of others in the sante line of rank. God wot, Inlet; ; and whereas it is unwise and inexpedient to promote . where was the comparison of giving 7,000/. a-year to the puisne judges to be chief justices, or puisne barons to be chief • :. Master of the Roll, and 8,0001, to the Chief Baron ? The barons." - business of the Master of the Rolls Was nothing compared with` Th e ATTORNEY-GENERAL t h ought it would he very . the -Vice-Chancellor's, who had the Court of Chancery business,. unwise and inexpedient to adopt the resolution as it was - in fact., to :perform. This scale, therefOre, was wrong, and moved by his. Hon. and Learned Friend. Neither the his must be altered. He also thought that the salary of 8,000/, tory of present or of past times proved it to be at all neces a-year - for -the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas trod too . sary. A resolution of the House in the last reign had been closely upon that of the Chief of the Court of King's Bench, _inserted as thereamble of an Act for securing the rode who was Chief Justice of all England. As to the salary of the pendence of the Judges and the due administration of justice ; - puisne judges--and he spoke it in a place from which his ex- but--that formed no case to justify the resolution now pro , pressions would in a f e w ho u rs be conveyed to the bench—he posed, which, if good in principle, ought to be constituted thought th e p ro p ose d se ek too hi g h, an d that they would be into the rule by legislative peavision. He thought it scarcely . well and t ru ly pa id w i t h 5 , 000 e a y ear ,,—( le ear !)—When he fair to attempt to carry it under the colour of an opinion given - said this, the House must feel he gave a disinterested opinion ; by the House. If it were wise to forbid the promotion of Puisne - for it was not pleas a nt to speak in reduction of the incomes of Judges, let that be expr es s e d. B u t if the matter were to be . those in whose presence he must spend nearly the whole of, his, left to individual discretion, the Crown must be left to ex time, and where it was 'desir a ble f o r him p r ofessionally to hold ercise that discretion. Any particular abuse in its exercise - a good understanding : still he must say, that 6,0001. - a year might form a ground for legislative interference. It was said I was for them quite an extravagant remuneration, and he be- that these translations were more numerous than in former lieved there were none more surprised at it than the judges times, What did th a t a m ou nt to, if in every case a justification themselves.—(Hear !)—He saw that the whole basin Westmin• was found inunthin th e circ u mst a nces ? At the time of the ap eter-hall were in one ferment of a?tonishnient at the proposition pointment of Chief Justice Dallas, the place was offered to on the morning after i t was ma d e, an d t h ey na t ura lly corn- the Attorney-General, wino refused it, Mr Dallas had been pared the emolument and the duties.witle those of other offices. Solicitor-General. Could it h ave been offered to a more fit and . There was the 'Speaker, the first commoner in England, an proper Person—could the situation have been better filled either - office of great responsibility and heavy labour, attended with for the Court or the public ? Hi s Hon, and Learned friend had very great expence, admirably sustained r e jixesent, as all quite forgotten th e p ract i ce o f past ti mes: Lord Coke was must know who partook of the dignifi e d op splendid hospi- moved from the Commo n Pl eas t o the Chief Justiceslihn Sir tains , of the Speaker' s mansion—(hearl)—tud yet his salary N. Hale was a puisine nudge before he was made Chief Justice. • was only 6,0001. a year. What comparison was there between Lord Hardwielte was Chief Justice of the King's Bench, and - ' his necessary expenditure and theta a puisne judge who had then was made Lord Chancellor. Lord Camden was Chief only the circuit expence to maintain ? Than' there was the Justice of the Comm on Pl ea s b e f o re he was Lord Chancellor, office of Secretary of State for the Foreign attliartment, who Yet the Ho n . an d L earne d G ent l eman wou ld lead the House to had to maintain the national hospitality on i suitnble scale, in believe, that since' 1810 a new principle had been adopted.— ' • the presence of foreigners of rank—who had fils household ex- Accident had multiplied the cases, but there was no new prin penditure also swelled by the nearly constant maintenance of cipie. Lord Kenyon was Chief Justice of Chester and Master messengers--who, besides, had no ho use lp ror hoed f o r-him, and of the R o ll s before he was made Chief' Justice of the King's indeed whose business consisted of no sinectsee-th( Heat f)—for i Bench. What did all this prove, but that the line could only he had to listen to the ambitious pretensions eof the Holy Al_ be drawn, h owever d es i ra bl e i n g e n eral to avoid the practice of Dance, to fence off all their medit a ted i s eseel to . u pon. public translation, by individual discretion, and that discretion must liberty, in the best way he could—to keep them off his hands ; be left with the Crown ? it was against the practice of the s oaf, Serjeant, tdenerhmecoi;seli ilipmj,enee deemed dwtae ocidtu,hbl that would been removed rivt iewei ntaibosi Constitution to eMbrae . a proposition of this nature in a reso- House's addressing the Crown, requesting it to withhold alto- House's which, if good t all, ought to be carried into effect by gether the exercise of such prerogative : and undoubtedly the House of Commons had the power, if it should see tit to an Act. Mr. SCARLETT Clad not" reconcile the inconsistency of do so, to prepare and present an address of that nature. It his Right Hon. and ' , tuned Friend in saying that there ought was not a little singular, that while the Hon. and Learned to be no resolution, and the conduct of the Chancellor of the Gentleman opposite had ound so much fault with the Hon. and Learned Gentieman on h . • (Mr. P el' .) side of the House, (br Exchequer in proposinea resolution. If it were inexpedient,but of a private speech no examples , understand the design . of his Hon. and Learned Friend near kind, no instances ,but particular ones; that lion. Member s then why was any resoltition proposed ? le could perfectly having adduced . in his 's e s him, who wished to propose the sentiment of the House (which (Mreßrougham's) own address was almost entirely confined to he must take leave to Say was that of public opinion generally) tehveersyingbloedcyastetionfstMard.mßiatrwonitf:agrrtoe in a way which would handit down to posterity for the guid ance of their conduct. But he invited his Right Hon. and highest talent and learning ; and who ought, in the Hon. and great w ju h s o t m ice l ) ie a i s le a se n t i l a h n eti of (atnhtei Learned Friend to consider the effect of what he had uttered. Learned Gentleman's opinion, to have been raised to the chief He lad allowed no ticalification whatever : he declared every justiceship. But the fact was, that to cite instances of this sort resolution of the kind to be unwise and inexpedient. Again, was only to provoke discussion on the appropriate and relative let him only remark the inconvenience of intrenching himself merits of existing judges ; and both on that account, and be behind individual - case , . ilow was it possible for his opponents cause he thought it would be highly inexpedient to agree to the to argue with him" while he remained in such perfect safety ? resolution proposed, he would beg leave to refer to the terms in " Whereas it is expedient to secure the independence of the I H 'h o e n y . took and g l e i n e c a r r a n l ed an o d a bstract grounds, to which the Right which it was drawn up, or would be afterwards expressed in— estleman, without any reasoning upon udges by adequate salaries; and whereas it is expedient and them at all, opposed individual circumstances. Of course there j could be no argument oe those t er ms. Suppose he were to take injurious to that independence to promote puisne judges to be up the statements of tht Right lion. and Learned Gent. and chief justices . and chief barons." IVell,but the Hon.and Learned In the time in which Mr. Garrow was gentleman himself did not propose to take away absolutely, and PAutttoarnlieya-r(trennlearralaistheer*e I s ere no less shan three vacancies—two under all possible circumstances, this power of appointment. as Chief Baron, and Ste as Chief Justice of the Common " Let it only he exercised," said he, "in cases of rare and dis- Pleas. Were either of these offices tendered to Mr. Garr ? tinguiehed merit." But, supposing this preamble once agreed Was- he not a man of elo q uence equa l to a ny ma n--of conetn. to, and passed as part of the new law, would it not afterwards mate talent in his ProfOsionof hi g h legal attainments v` What be quite impossible for the Crown to promote any person, being a objection could there have been to his appointment ? ould puisne Judge, to the Chief J usticeship, however extraordinary it be pretended that he Was like some o ther g reat men who had might be hi- merits and qualifications, without very great disad. preferred ease and rethetient ? Alas !he solicited and obtained vantage to that individual ?—(Hear !)—Would it not, under the the situation of puisne tidge. It was impossible to offer an ob. import of the Hon. and Learned Gent.'s own language, which jection to his aoPointwtat , and yet three chief judgeships were I went positively, and without any . exceptions, to declare all such vacant, and not one wase ele. re o to hi m . I t cou ld not be presumed ' nominations inexpedient id injurious—would it not be very that the Chaneellor, wheliad the recommendation of the judges, 1 unfair towards any puisne Judge to select him for' a promotion wished to insult l't man of Baron Garrow's character by quietly I that must of necessity. in the face of those terms, appear so passing him by. It wastouch less to be supposed that lie would 1 invidious ? The party's elevation could only suffice to cast a before that have a dviseihis p romo tion to the office of Attorney I reproach upon his character, and a stigma on his independence. General, if he had not bten convinced that he was equal to the I Still, however, there was much in the Learned Gentleman's highest offices of the law. Such was the inconvenience of argu- i (_Mr. Brougham's) general reasoning against which he (Mr. ing upon individual casee. As to the cases of former times, lie ; Peel) was not at all prepared to contend. But all, that he de had always understood that Lord H a rdwicke had taken the i sired to do on this occasion was to show that in a case of this Chancellorship veryunwillingly. The Right Hon. Gentleman kind there was but one alternative for the House to pursue. should recollect, thatit 'only belonged to modern times fors If the Crown should ever abuse the power it was invested Chancellor to hold the seals for 25 years, or half a century.— with in respect to the appointment of judges, it would At that time a Lord Chancellor was considered only as a Mini- always be open to the House to proceed for remedy of such stet subject to removal with his friends; no one dreamed of hold- a grievance by address. To a resolution , like this now sub ing that great and lofty situation for life as in our times. No milted to the House, he must strenuously object, as being doubt the public e.eri .91 the highest advantages from the judge ; decidedly unconstitutional. If the House could . constitu who no held the oe. But could Lord Ellenhorough be I tionally proceed by a resolution of this sort, touching a pre prevailed upon to accept it ? No; he preferred being Chief t rogative of the Crown in a legal matter, it might proceed in Justice of the King's Bench. Lord Mansfield refused the I a similar manner as to the Crown's prerogatives. And the seals :Lord Camden accepted them with difficulty to oblige! Huse of Commons might proceed on the same principle, by hie party ; nor was NO ever known to be satisfied with the address to the throne, in relation to the appointment of almost exchange. Until the Right Hon. Gentleman could get up a every individual holding office by its nomination. As to the joint stock company to insure the possession of the office for Chief Baron of Scotland, who had been alluded to, the Chief half or quarter of a century, the promotion of .a Chief Jus- Justiceship had been offered to that Learned and excellent per- Oa to a Chancellor, such would always be the case. It was son; but was declined by him on account of his deafness; and not proposed to prevent the Crown from translating puisne as to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's observation in rela judges, but only to give expression to the general feeling. tion to the present Master of the Rolls— He remarked the impropriety of quoting the cases of Lords Mr. BROUGHAM, in explanation, begged to say that his Coke and Hale, Who were deposed from their places, and observations applied to Chief Justices of the King's Bench put down to the bar. It was admitted. that the Creiwn was exclusively. not to be restrained, but it belonged to either House of Pare Mr. PEEL was of opinion that the discretion of the Crown lianietit to make propositions of this kind in the. nature of I in these matters ought to he left altogether unfettered, unless it Advising. Was meant to be proposed to take it away altogether; in which Mr. Secretary CAlsZNlNG:hough, Sir, I do not feel case a bill for the specific purpose must be brought in, and must ASS through both Houses of Parliament, where it would of course myeelf so competent to pronounce an opinion upon this question P as some of the Learned Gentlemen who have favoured us with undergo -very considerable discussion. The present resolution their sentienents e yet taking into consideration all that I have Provided matter merely for the preamble ; its principle would herd to-night, I must say that 1 find in the speeches and ar. at once limit the prerogative of the Crown, and impose upon it guments of _the two Learned C ounsel, and in the detailed (Es- a sort of necessity to consult the House of Commons upon al cussion .upon this measure, a reason which I co sure must most every judicial or similar appointment. On these grounds, prevent every iadividual who heard them from consenting to , and considering that the suggestion, if carried into effect, would \ adopt the resolution which it is proposed should form albe an unconstitutional one, he should certainly oppose this re preamble to the Bill. 'lf it is fit, Sir, that no discretion should solution. be vested in the Crown, with regard to the appointment of the Mr. 111331 E, in allusion to the appointment of the present t a lr i , n l i e p t er a a n tt i v l e c* be passed by the Legislature, and let it be Lord Chief justice of the Common Pleas, described it as an iip- UPon the Crown to appoint only persons' such i pointinent which there was not one individual at the bar who situations as may be named by that Act, and under such re- I did not' tleprecate. It was most unpleasant to the . country, re strictions as Parliament may think proper to impose. But if it is tit that the Crown should still retain that discretion in the 1 Crown.—(l - lear !) appointment of the Judges, which I think for the efficient i and most disgraceful to those who recommended it to the Mr. Sergeant oNsLow declared that the Hon. Member 1 administration of justice it should retain, why then, Sic, I for Montrose, so far from now speaking the sentiments of the think it should be left unfettered by any, restrictions, subject bar of England relative to the appointment of Lord Chief Jut only to question on the proof of a grolet abuse of its power tice Best, was tittering those that wets., exactly the reverse of of selection ; put not liable to re-examination or correction without just ground of complaint, and certainly not subject to j a resolution like the one now sought to be introduced into Ithem.—(hear'.)—While at the bar, not only was this eminent udge one of the ablest men in Westminster-hall, and at the head of his circuit, and sought after in his own Cola., and in the preamble of this Bill, which neither perfectly points out all the other Courts, but h : e sti w ce as uesntiiir(shali el"distinguished for the course to he pursued, nor leaves the Crown the free ex- his uncommon industry and research. Since he had become a said, the practice followed with respect ercise of its right of appointment ; but hy a kind of side-long ijudgeolie had manifested the same integrity anhtelaraii_ica_tioti. his former care p e o r nriet ( ua H newn e e diattackspcuee discussion his iol not hint, as aasbilaswoofutlhelactaililinitd, tthliiirnowtismeokuntoawiliiee(itge_neciej;;tbinrgatplipeoainpti and m t r h . a ,D t e: N te A n i s . i l v: l kn , :ledge of his profession that had marked like to know how' exhibitsp ni o e iri n t t m lv e a n ys t et t ro t y f L t s) l et i r e r(ien J v • g a i sl t yc h d e t e i s iel u z: ;l a t :: theß Representatives e n:l l :e a t: c v e e s o f of the t h Il e opuesoep people. s l i e l d io t n o t W he I — No: w in: 1 : i e l _ m a sl e r tl at t: , 1 4. 1 . 1 h a i a k t e .I th: e t: . l fl u g p u o e n e s t l i t l a i r s e ( a t . l it I s i . the Crown ‘,. f , _ ~ , ‘5. I ,....„ 2 r l ,e s l l m i .o. i n i „v i a l l ir o c ipr s 2ai p ls, : s:i c i in t rg o ri f :ti o f:g n i xe e po l, l ii i p. t et i C s a i, l iiosi t ib r i i ip a i 1 111 , 4u: I m i. f p .o o el upon eovfwwelnitihhcteho_ example r e aer ( r :l al r ne . ence to a casewhii, Regency Lill the ~01n e wb at ti i a t r e en tr i n n by its a na r t e t t:e re r : ° o f f ttbhee Learnedmerit resolutions like that u o n n d e er o debate upon the ' I principle : I would maintain. In the but he should i t dHouse, nodiscussion.t e Judges; it would be granting too much power to a year 1810, it was thought of Commons ,rmyeeaßteenennitorwaarys to have the invested with only person about to be remove thought, if the I ' as many Peers as lie thought g };roper during the time of his Re- r w e a m s o s t a T id d. ifa . gency, and it was therefore proposed l power should knowledged merit. T) he limited to tt selection There did not see that whatever w• right, and by giving the the question of right or wrong, latitude w making the House hicli strictly belonged the I V' persons to the Peer; strictly i House assume it as into the merits might think fit to fined i • itself strictly to the h fore, without pronoun s i n t le authority, as it was then to addressthe P the power of making able, by address of that Something by some persons. that the Judge (Mr. Kenricq ta • only of persons of ac- yet nothing had was not a man in the House who neither had the giit be wrong, that was not the proposition they could prevent the House English .Judge had been give satisfaction the ouelt might n have • justified his_ removal, Since the Judges were made on would b e not eevneeendvipil l(aailvaputcerpoeiobnciigeann i el ntslneeo appointed. ro t ns. raised iaasttt He dyee H eryti eo o npec i tha t te s : a. . Ir e sdtel , transpired with respect to a Welsh been done upon the subject • ing to the of his Hon. * ee of Commons a right to discuss to support. The they were getting beyond the Chief Justiceshi andthe country to them ; that they were been a resolution P , parties to the eleva- not be raised to that dignity.. a right,os, and that they were making man universally and almost as a duty, to examine situation, according character of those whom ' - • raise to that 1 honour and to see that it con- meritoriously, odaries of t its liniitation. I, there- The Hon. ;11 Crown ex • ' its • C. W. WYNN ' exercised right of removing, The Journals, 1 o s , f that all tim p e u l i e s g n a e l j p u ro d t g .c e s s si s o l n i o . u 1 d and Learned Friend appeared entitled promotion of Mr. Justice Abbott to the ignity.. illr. Sergeant Lens, a Gentle tionthought the judges must have acted re of appointing the Judges g whether the power vested in the Crown had been * ember had alluded to a Welsh judge. No or not, but with a stro according to its pleasure, be restrained move him. made out, and it was difficult for the Crown to case ed, think that the authtirintPinien that it ought not to be restrain- ference ofhe ile should not exist to him, together. authority both the Crown and this House at the time of 1 House of Commons. The Hon. Gentleman said be taken away, it should be ut if the power of the Crown is to respectable Gentleman appointment of the Lord Chief Justice a most he could not have accepted it ; his state of Parliament; and if that done by law, by an express Act of time hiel • tension which it 1 • power is to be retained, anti that di knew highest encomiums on that excellent Gentleman bu - at has huh should be left wh:)11 ' hitherto had is still to be exercised, it ofiered that if the office of Chief Justice of Chester had the Y subject to the been left subject as this preamblele usual responsibility, but not health did not tion on every occasion, andwould leave it, to be called in ques- Mr. DENllp l Tit him to take it. promotion or appointment '• to the consequence of' haying every tion Mr. Serjeant said in explanation, that he did not men cussion in the Ilouse of , made a matter of canvass aiid clis- theawo individuals. On Lord ALTHO Commons. RPE supported office was open, The Right lion. Gentleman the resolution proposed.-- in a conditi and Mr. Serjeant Lens was in good health and and his Hon. Friend' had (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) Mr. IlltO nn U to t accept the office. contemplated hy the r said, thatif this object, which was office of Chief 'HAM said, Mr. Serjeant Lens considered Learned G I ent.einao (as •• resolution 'submitted by the lion. and which he at all, it must be r. brougham), • was to be carried into could not accept. character, the resolution it by a S'' • of" Mr. ABERCROI . as now 1 - l ie .leave if 1 the ques effectnothing more • stood could serve a foundationthey satisfied themselves than a single in Bill as for a negative on the proposition of • an impor• - • Lent novelty as was clause, a to provide for suck It was a fact thatthe that Bill only. Ilea thus proposed fbr the preamble Puisne three Chief Justices had been not Friend. ted from pound other resolutions-surely it would he very easy to pro- nued, Judges.and they It was a practice which should i not Thi be conti ofthe Bill could be very upon which, in conjunction with this, say it ' was could not leave the law as it stood. The who thought thatPnroPerly brought in. Lie differed from Helmut, utopen to remove a Judge by y might application hope or to Par taken, with the view of introducing niiddle step as this could be tertained in o n t o ' expectation of success could be - such a resplutione e for it would d ucing any bill in pursuance of stances. lie sa n w ot nothingtor; to remove a Judge under such cir en thosepose of providing ' for the r be a bill with the distinct par- that was unconstitutl in the proposition of his lion. Frciuem. justice, by regulating tbe g greater purity of the administration of prerogative of the Clown.io nal. It could not interfere with Friend highly expedient should not exerciseof a power which it was. Mr. Kenrick, it was of importance. With respect to the case the importance. (if we understood the• Noble ie. exerted, as it latterly had been asked—ls there no MeThe question had been of of Puisne 'Lord rightly) in the appointment Member of Parliament Judges to be ' • Mr. PEE Chief Justices.motion against Mr. Kenrick ? .. wh who will make a L thoueht that ' ' was to be left to ibrin thea it the substance of' this resolution which could rot be anti want of confidence, . sition was precisely i. matter of the preamble, that prop°. Ilonou bi .d Learned overcome without the Resolution that night sag , y lab:..; to the objections which had been the ra an Friend was carried. of his therefore - eased on his side ought He considered , seem to • of the House. It did not, the blasterVice-Chancellor to have the same allowance as he denied that therethese objections in any way ; tress lay on the Vice-Ch; he great harshen of Equity busi open to them between was any middle course of this nature salary to the Master of Vice-Chancellor. lie did not say the , addressing proposed abstain ment in all casest the Crown, praying it to business in Equity w done the Rolls was too much, but all the s, and leaving it whatever from making any such appoint- not fair to give hit as by time Vice-Chancellor, which it 1 at present e • power in this respect The SOLICITOR-GENERAL Master of the Rolls. appeared to con • exercised. The Noble Lord and others men made could !Stela H ' conceive that this was an inconsistencyt by the Hon. 111 • d not concur in the state , on. Gentletie ( 1 Chancellor between the quantum of business transacted tonber who had just spoken. The had said /, If an t lei ' Exchequer),t shrwl clhdh) Judgesdh:lindawvaPosri unavoidably la' youenable t f the who itancellor was the the salaries of me to make this liberal increase in Ch greatest; he not allow - that Chancellor, however laborious the business of the Vice to be brought in . the Judges, there • • . is a probability that in the Bill Lord Chancellor., lessenedexertions - future , a clause will be ' introduced to regulate the The • appointment of ChiefJ ' question was then called the pr. • acmeofnominating ustices, and perhaps to abolish For the Resolution fur, and the house divided. Judges," e ~ ( lees, and the them frorn among the Puisne Against it - - - 29 General) w' ie Hon and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney- ' nu laid ar • Majority - . - 112 posing this- resolution.—(Hearargued against the object altogether, in op- On our admission to the gallery - - - ---- 83 the imputation !)---Now he (Mr. Peel) denied of , the EXCHEQLTE we found the CHANCELLOR object of his of inconsistency in this case. T Right Honourable he common cussion, which 11l it opposing further - and Learned r postponement of the dis that instead of 1 • Friend was, The • SCARLEiT had recommended, the case judges being appointed in future(as had Report was ultimately generally during the last " ' upwards of 50, or perhaps -.5 years) not until they were The East I • next, might induce able and 60, years old, this liberal increase night. ndia Judges Bill was postponed to Friday se'n theeeenose important meritorious men to come forward for The Canada 'Tradefrom Bill went en 49 or 45 to 50 and to be read a third t.' through a Committee, and was agreed with his P • Light Hon. Friend in ADJOURNI ' no Middle course between* thinking that there was On th e • . , lENT OF THE HOUSE. nPPointnients leaving the prerogative of these the H motion of the CHANCE unfettered in the hands of the Crown, House adjourneduntil ' LLoit of the EXCHEQUER n, or this journed at Half- Thursday next.—The House ' Half-past One o'Clock. ad- CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL. -- --- LIST OF THE MAJORITY AND MINORITY IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS. On the Second Reading of the Catholic Relief Bill. MAJORITY Earl Mansfield Lord Colchester Charleville Gambier Orford Clandbrassill (E. I4onsdale noden) Ilarewood Meldrum (Earl Cathcart Aboyne) Brownlow Ravensworth Beauchamp Delamere Falmouth Dufferin Verulam Middleton Stanhope Teynham Sheffield Bexley Kinnoul Gifford Viscount Sydney Combermere Sidmouth Grantley • Lake Grey Exmouth Dalhousie (Earl) Beresford Penhurst Lorton Archbp.Canterbury Lord De Clifford York Do la 'Louth Willoughby de Bishop of ndon Broke , Lincoln Hawke St. David's Bolton St. Asaph Dynevor Ely Walsingham Bath&Wells Rodney Litchfield Montagu Peterborough Kenyon Landaff Stuart(E.Moray) Exeter Saltersford (Earl Gloucester Courtown) Chichester Rolle Chester • Bolton Elphin Northwick Down Carberry Bristol Redesdale Oxford Arden Worcester PROXIES. Bishop of Hereford Visc. Arbuthnot Lord Gordon (Mar.. Duke of. Clarence Lord Oriel Huntley) Cumberland Earl Norwich(D. of Earl Chatham. Earl of Coventry Gordon) Marq. of Cholmon- Lord Harris Lord Tyrone (Mar. deley Earl Ferrers Waterford) Lord Newburgh Lord Manners Lord Wodehouse Earl Talbot Earl Harcourt Earl Palllett Lord Ribblesdale Earl of Erroll Earl Nelson Lord Forrester Lord Loftus(Marq. Bish. of Waterford Earl Plymouth . of Ely) Bish. of Carlisle Lord Glenlyon Lord Rivers Ld Fisherwick (M. Duke Marlborough Earl Manners Donegal) Duke Manchester Lord St. Helens Earl of Chichester Earl Howe Lord be Despencer Bishop of Durham Lord Douglas (Earl Bish. of Winchester Earl of .Malmsbury Morton) • Lord Stowell Earl of Romney E. Mountedgconabe Bishop of Bangor Earl Broderick Viscount Carlton Lord Saltoun (Middleton) Earl Winchelsea Earl of carrick Earl Stradbroke Lord Bagot I4ord Vernon Lord Dormer Earl Craven - Lord Douglas - Earl Wemyss Earl Cardigan Lord Ross (Earl of Earl Graham (D. Earl Egremont Glasgow) of Montrose) Earl Clancarty Earl Kellie Lord Gort Lord Forbes • Lord Braybrook paired off with Lord Bayning: Duke of York Lord Chancellor Lord Privy Seal Duke of Richmond Beaufort Rutland Dorset Newcastle Wellington arq.of Winchester Salisbury Hertford Exeter Northampton Anglesey A ilesbury Thomond Lothian • Earl Pembroke Shaftesbury Abingdon Scarborough A ylesford Stamford Macclesfield lmo Pomfret e Radnor Bathurst A bergavenn y Strange Digby Liverpool Rochfort Longford 31 ayo Enniskillen O'Neill Powis MINORITY Duke of Sussex Earl Grosvenor Visct. Melville Lord President Cliefdeu Ilchester Duke of Grafton Wicklow Down Portland Fortiscue Marnard Devonshire Carnarvon Lord Dacre . Buckingham Charlernont Howardof Ef.. ArgYll Kingston fingliam Leinster owad Donoghmore H IWalden of Marq. Lansdown Bute Queensburry Cambden Conyngham Downskire Caledon Rosslyn : Earl Essex Minto King MOntfort Grantham • Holland Foley Gaga Dundas Yarborough Auckland Cawdor Jersey Londonderry Cork Calthorpe AlbemarleSuffolk - Morley somers Darnley Roseberry Suffield Tankerville ' Ormond Bristol Clare - Lauderdale : cagricke Aberdeen • 'Darlington Visct. Duncan St.ic,G,ior Wilton es( yf l eo e rr r i de m a i n s ' Oxford Hereford Napier Spencer Torrington Bishop Norwich ' ' Clarendon Duclleyand Ward PROXIES. Earl Mulgrave ' Earl Carlisle Earl Lucan ' Marq. Sligo Earl of Hopetoun Earl Derby E A . iLv I . vie b i le f,so n r eer c u b yd r o, UCHr ° m ll b g i e l' Lord Amherst Lord Saye and Sele Marg. Wellesley Earl Egrcmont Duke of Hamilton Lord Maryborough • Lord Belhaven Lord Churchill Etirl Cornwallis Earl Elgin Earl Granard Earl Craysfort • Viscount Granville Lord Hutchinson Lord Sondes Marq. Stafford Marq. of Headfort Earl Behnore Duke of Somerset Lord. Erskine Earl Harrington • Duke of Bedford Visct. Melbourne Earl De La Ware Viscount Anson Bishop of Rochester Earl Grenville • Lord Clinton Cord Gwydyr Lord Cassillis • Lord Duncie Earl Besborough Earl Buckingham ' Lord Carrington Lord Crewe shire Marq. of Tweedale Earl Blesington Lord Alvanley Lord Hill Earl IValdegravo MAJORITY Who voted for the Reading of the Leith Dock Joint Stock Company Bill that day six months. Abercromby, Hn.J. Grenfell, P. Robertson, A. Byng, George Grattan, J. Sefton, Earl of 13entinck, Lord W. Gordon, Hon. W. Smith, J. Bright, Henry Grant, G. M. Smith, W. Baring, A. Hume, J. Trent, W. H. Benyon, B. Heron, Sir R. Taylor, M. A. Barne, M. Hutchin son , H on . . T u lk , C . A . Calcrat, J. C. 11. Wood, Alderman Carew, R. S. Kennedy, T. F. Wilson, T. Calvert, N. Lamb, Hon. G. Wilson, Sir R. Fergusson, Sir R. Leycester, Ralph Werlyss, J. Farquhar, J. Monck, J. B. , Western, C. C. Fane, V. Newport, Sir J. TELLERS. Forbes, Sir C. Phillips, G. Grant, J. P. Glenorchy, Visc. Robinson, Sir Geo. Hamilton, Lord A. MINORITY. Buchanan, John Mackenzie, Sir J. Rae, Rt. T.ln. SirW Cockburn, Sir G. Montgomery, J. Ure, M. Douglas, W. K. Onslow, Serjeant Berries, J. C. Paxton, W. G. TELLERS. • Hope, Sir W. Somerset, Lord G. Dundas,Rt.Hn.W. Lindsay, Hon. H. Suttie, Sir J. Clerk, Sir G. Sir John Marjoribanks, Bart. voted in the Minority, but on the motion of Mr. Hume, his vote was rejected, on the ground of being a Member of the Joint Stock Company, and conse quently being interested. MINORITY. Who voved with Mr. Brougham for the insertion of the follow ing words :—" Whereas it is expedient to secure, by an ade quate Salary, the independence of the Judges ; and whereas it is highly inexpedient and injurious to that independence, to promote Puisne Judges to the situation of Chancellor, Chief Justices of either Bench, Chief Baron, Master of the Rolls, or Vice Chancellor." Althorp, Visct. Heron, Sir R. Sykes, D. Allen, J. H. Honeywood, W. P. Scarlett, J. Broughton, Sir R. Johnes, J. Webbe, E. Bernal, R. Kennedy, T. F. Wilson, Sir R. Brougham, Henry Lushington, Dr. Williams, Sir R. Crompton, S. Lamb, I-lon. G. Warre, J. A. Carter, John Martin, J. W e st ern , C. C. Denman, T. Palmer, C. F. Fergusson, Sir R. Rice, T. S. Guise, Sir W. Robinson, Sir G. Hume, J. Smith, W. TELLERS- Abercromby,Hn.J. Grant, J. P. On arrival of the intelliget.ce in the City of ' Coventry, on Wednesday, of the Catholic Bill being thrown out of the House of Lords, the bells of the different Churches com menced ring ing , and continued with little intermission through out Thursd ay. Such is' the disposition of the inhabitants that they are determined to return two .Members at the next General Election, who will support the Established Church, and oppose Catholic Emancipation ; all parties vie with each other in op posing the present Representatives, should they offer themselves. Bishop WREN crlculatcd that he .walked round the earth while a prisoner in the Tower of London. EvenSwlrT counted the number of steps he took between London and Chelsea; and a Reverend Divine wrote one hundred and nineteen Sermons, on the 119th Psalm: *