The Sun. — London, England, 1825-06-15 00:00:00

°eh , .ld be aompetent fo . : their Lordships to discuss whether the P:11,. as it woold then stand, was or was‘not a fit measure for kgisiative sanction ; and he would take care that the twelve :tudoes should be summoned to give their opinion as to its lege,. lily. lie now begged to he understood distinctly as neither admitting or tienyin Coe legality of the company, until -the oiteeit formed a part of the-Rill. Lord DACRE thought it had been very.fairli put by COun eel at their Lordshipi' barn that if any legal Objections existed to ibis Bill, they ought tQ be • removed, du tine -. ground of its public utility: If that utility cool 1. he.proyetiand-he had no doubt whatever that the most satipiactory evidence could he fc - oSen on that subjecto—he.thouOtt their Lordidilps were hound, - in justice to the country, to give every facility tO the measure. 3:lppose this Bill wereio be objected to on the ground of its illegality, what, he asked, would be the situation of the thirty four companies which had already hail Bills passed in their favour, granting them the power of suing and being sued ? After a few words from the Earl of LAUDERDALE, which were sot beard below the bar, l'be LORD CHANCELLOR. said, that. from what was pa swig in the courts of justice, it would be but justice to all ..ne parties ocncerneci in such companies as this, that the deeds 71'10111A form part of all future Bills. It was necessary that the centente of such deeds should be known to all parties, or the Legislature must decide upon altering the practiceof the Courts of Law: Tke Duhe of A THOLL spoke in favour of the Company. lie.soncurred with-his Noble and Learned Friend on the wool as.oli,•that it might be advisable to make the association deeds a pas: of Bills of this kind in future, but he.thought it hard to Leo:al with this bill. Other bills of a similar character had paased without being subject to this condition. • The LORD CHANCELLOR would be extremely_sorry to say - any using disrespectful to individuals. He would there fore pay nothing with respect to the deed anti the Bill, which he tOit rot Mean to condemn ; but he would say, that he would alit no conveyapcer's or professional man's opinion before that et t'e Twelve Judges of England. coovrrsation here dropped. The Bill was ordered to be ecoarlitted to-morrow. It was understood that the deed was be incorporated With it in the Committee. : . ..d . :;atorned at HALF-PAST SEVEN O'CLOCK.. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. JoHNSON, from the Irish Secretary's office, presented a stmt of the number of freeholders in • the counties of Galway and Sligo, which was ordered to be printed. IL:e Irish Mines and Western Ship Canal Bills were read a third time and passed. EXPORTATION Or MACHINERY. LETON had a petition to present which was en titled to the serious consideration of the House ; it was from the artisans of the town and county of Nottingham, and they prayed that Parliament would not repeal the laws which prohibited the exportation of machinery. The petitioners declared their con. siction that it was this prohibition of the export of the perfect mac't•.irery used in so many important branches of the manufac tures of this country, which had made the trade of England the admiration of the world. The petitioners enumerated the num beut end value of particular machines used in the manufacture in w'bich they were interested, and forceably urged the local and general advantages which had arisen from their being kept in this country. If the law which had operated hitherto with so much advantage were now to be repealed, the conntry would have to rue such an experiment, for it would necessarily drive artiaans to accompany their machinery to foreign states. The Hon. Member enforced the prayer of this petition, arid theitight that if any alteration of the, old law were intended, - it'OUght to be left in the power of the Board of Trade to licence or pro hibit the export of machines (Oa particular nature. 31r: BIRCH strongly concurred in recommending this pe tition to the favourable consideration of the House. Mr. HUSK ISSON entirely concurred in the importance of a au*ct which had so excited the feelings of the artisans of this country. But were he to express a general opinion on a subject teat which a Committee was now sitting o he would say that the continuance of the laws in their old state, to which so many of the artisans - appeared attached, was inconsistent with the more liberal policy in trade which the country had recently adopted. Still, however, he would by no means recommend any serious alteration, without the fullest con sideration, and more particularly without hearing the opinions of thew! practical men who ought ' perhaps, to be the beat judges of. what cesined most likely to affect their interest' in several trades.* It would be very well for the Committee to hear all the infor hnation which practical men - were_capeble of affording upon the rehject, and then they could enlighten each other on the gene r.el topics which such a consideration involved. For instance, toe artisene entertained a generel • opiniOn that the great ad veaces made by the manufactures of ,this country were owing entirely to the perfection of theit.inachinery., How far that mold be deemed the sole cause, or , whether it Was connected with other causes, it would be right to determine. And lie re peatekthat no alteration ought to take place without the most .gnat re consideration. Still the llouie ought to consider that they and to a great extent acted upon the principle of the free circulation of labour, and it would - be dilliculffor them to stop a:tag-ether respecting the case of machinery, and particularly when the law of patentsin this country so nearly resembled the law upon the same matter in France and in the Netherlands, ceuetries of which the artisans were most jealous. When as arlean tool; out a patent in England, lie mostly provided hhnielf with the same safeguard in these two other states. He watt most disposed,considering the great alarni which pervaded tea manufacturing interests on this subject, to treat the matter with as much delicacy and caution as possible, and by no means to act without further and fuller inquiry. Ile could not, hew over, coicur in his lion. Friend's recommendation of referring the subject to the Board of Trade, for that Board had already more than enough of business on its hands': and if the further duty were imposed upon them of deciding what ankles of ins adsine.ry should be exported, and those on which an embargo entgrit to be laid, then they would assign to the Board of Trade an invidious and unpleasant duty, for which, as at present con atitated, they were totally unfit. Mr. HUME said, -that as one of the Committee *upon Machinery, he quite agreed in the importance of the subject, ^AO that all parties ought to be fully heard before the law was :littered, although nothing had occurred to alter the opinion he had long focused, that the laws relative to the export of machi nery ought to. be made to partake of the general improvement in the prieciples and policy of trade. Still lie confessed that lie nv put to press at this moment a repeal, against the pre eeiting state -ofeeLarnothat was manifest, which otherwise he had intended`to propose. When they went into the inquiry respecting the causes of the advancement of the national trade, he apprehended it would be difficult to sustain the opinion that -the improvement of machinery was entitled to the exclusive pace re which some artisans had placed it. When the Com hte.e reported, it would be seen how tar they had gone into the general inquiry; it was, however, remarkable that no artisan was found to deprecate universally the export of machinery, so that steps might be taken to classify such articles as an embargo f t woe unnecessary for. And there was another thing which it wait desirable to ascertain—how far it was in the power of the Customhouse officers to execute these prohibitory laws t • for tisose who evaded them could manage to transmit the mach in e io different parts, and from different ports, in forms very diffi cult of detection. .For instance, steam-engines could be ex ported ; and when these were sent out in separate parts, other machines could be equally sent out with them. He wished Retinas to consider what thousands of them could obtain a live lihood in the manufacture of machines which could be exported without any real injury to British manufactures. The Board ui Trade could now, contrary to law, give a permission -to ex port certain machinery : this power ought to be legalized, and made more general. The Committee would report in the pre sent Session, and then. cooly in theensuing, they could consider what further steps they ought to take. BARING entirely concurred in the propriety of pausing while so much alarm was excited among artisans ; but still he that ht it clear that nine-tenths of these machines might be eiportiiir Without detriment to any British manufacture. At alt esente. a discretionary power might he left somewhere, to. permit what ought to be exported, and what ought not to be. slowed. It could no where be assigned with greater ndvan- Lege to the country than to the Board of Trade, the - arduous statues of which were so ably and beneficially discharged at this tame by the President and Vice-President, who were, he must say, so ill-requited for their labours : indeed, so much so, that it was incumbent upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pro pose a better provision for their services ; such a measure should have his wannest support.---(Hear I) Mr. T. WILSON concurred in the Hon. Member's eulo gin in upon the mode in which business was per formed at the Board of Trade, and approved of the proposal to increase the salaries ofthe President and Vice-President. Mr. LA WLEY was convinced that the manufacturing interests would approve of such a proposition, from the man ner in which they always found their business had been at tended to by that Board. Mr.. Pl-11 LI PS praised the . condect of the petitioners, and strongly recommended their opinions to the deliberate consi deration of the [louse. Ile was sure that it would answer every purpoec, - -to except from the prohibition such Machines as could with safety be exported. COM BINATION I. AWS. Mr. ELLICid concurred in the praise which had been be . stowed upon the Board of Trade, and Was desirous to take this . opportunity of asking-the Chairman Of the Committee on the Combination Laws when lie hoped to present their report ; and algae -if it were intended to-found any legislative measure upon it during the present Session. A great anxiety prevailed out of acors on the subject. Mr. WALL. t CE said, that the Committee were at present tag ed - . in preparing their report,. which he hoped to present it either to-morrow or the next day. And as soon a.epossible, was intended to found a legislative measure upon it. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that while the report and the evi dence taken in the Committee were printing, the proposed Bill thnlirbe brought" it and discussed. - Mr. WALLACE said, that such an arrangement would greatly facilitate the object he had in view. The discussion, might be taken on the last stage of the Bill. Mr. ELLICE said, that an assent to such an arrangement must depend en the nature of the propOsed Bill ; for if any thing like the re-enactment of the old law were intended, he should oppose the measure. l t - was rumoured that the inten tion was to repeal the last law, and to leave the whole matter open to die old common law.. This would be objectionable, be cause it would be to carry the parties into Courts of Justice to ascertain the position in, which they stood. Mr. WALLACE replied, that so far as he knew the inten tions of the Committee, they did not mean to revive the old law, neither was it their desire to re-enact the statutes which were so long in operation upon the subject. They certainly wished to leave the parties to the common law, as it stood in particular in stances, and to specify so far as it was practicable in what mat ters the masters and workmen might-be allowed to meet beneficially. - The petition from Nottingham was then laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. E. WODEHOUSE preiented a petition from three gentlemen who styled themselves the French Brandy Company, praying for some alteration in the Distillery Laws. A ?talon was presented from Bolton, praying that there may be no alteration in the law respecting the importation of ! wool. . -- CONDUCT OF A SURREY MAGISTRATE. 1 Mr. DENMAN rose, pursuant to a notice which he had given, to call the attention of the House to the conduct of a magistrate- of the county-of Surrey. On a former evening, when he gave the notice, he had been misunderstood, and that mis apprehension had gone abroad, so that he was supposed very generally to have proffered a petition to the House against the body of the Surrey magistracy. He had not-hinted at any thing of the kind. Ile had particularly stated, though he was un fortunate in not having been plainly heard, that-his petition was against the conduct of a magistrate of Surrey, who was also a Judge in-the principality of Walee, and he then stated that the name of that gentleman was Kenrick. Theconiplaint which he had to lay betbre the House related to two particular transac tions. if the facts alleged should be substantiated to the satis faction of the House, they would form -a ground of a paramount necessity for the House to address the Crown, .praying that Mr. Kenrick may be divested of any judicial situation which he now holds. Since the office of Judge had-cbangeti its dependence from the will of-the Crown to the term of good behaviour, no case of abuse so grievous as these allegations had been adduced before the House. It might be said that-there was a great un willingness to bring charges of a personal nature against that class of men where no honour was to be gained by the ac cusation. - It would have been highly satisfactory to hint if the subject had been taken up ih souse other quarter. It was of that weight and importance which demanded the support -of a person of higher station and authority than he could hope to have in the mind of the House, and would have come much better from any of His Majesty's Ministers. The first part of the question which he had to propose was contained in the peti tion. The second part referred-to a great variety of affidavits, which were produced on Hilary Term last in the Court of King's Bench. From these- two sources he drew the present inference that Mr. Kenrick had acted with partiality, violence, and intemperance on behalf of a party for whom he chose -to - interest himself—that he had wrongfully imprisoned an individual who pursued him by an action, and recovered a verdict" against him. In the other - case he had with no less violence so conducted himself,- that if that which he had -admitted himself in his own-affidavits should alone he taken against him, it would prove him utterly unfit to hold - his pre sent office. He wished, however, to take that course which - best agreed with fairness and strict. justice. 1k would there. • fare refrain front going into particulars at this time, and con fine himself to a motion for bringing- up the petition in order to printing it, and for producing and printing copies of the affi davits before mentioned. - The whole of the case would thus be put into the hands of Members who might increase their informations upon the facts by inquiries, after which the House might-be called upon to declare in some form what steps it might deem necessary to be taken. -If any other course should be thought more just- towards Mr. Kenrick, he had no objec tion to the . House entertaining the-: proposition of any other -Member for that purpose, But he eould not rest longer under the little share of responsibility which attached to him as a Member of Patliament without calling the attention of the House to this case. -He had nothing to urge about general doc trines. The facts, if -true, were matters of such a nature that their toleration would be an open and notorious scandal to the interests and general character of the justice of the country.-- Still bee/as anxious that the louse shoUld suspend its judg ment until the documents were in the hands of all the Mem bers. .He moved that-the petition he brought up. Mr. DENISON said that Mr. Kenrick was a near neigh bour.of his in Surrey—that he was a man of the most amiable and proper deportment in his domestic circles; but it was well knowli thetin public opinion no men differed .much more than he and Air. Kenrick. -He was not the less anxious to do hint •justice, and he had to assure the House that in a conversation which he had had but a few hours ago with him, that -gentle man had expressed his most earnest desire that the House might, by going into an examination, give Mai an opportunity of disproving the accusations. He admitted that no question of greater importance could arise, however this might be taken. He would suggest, however, that it might be an improvement in the system of the tnagistracy, if the supervision of it were placed immediately under the Lord Lieutenant in com munication with the office of the Secretary for the Home De partment, instead of being left to the vigilance and jealousy of -the public, and the occasional exertions of eminent lawyers. Mr. PEEL said, that from the notices of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the House, very likely, was to be called upon to exercise its discretion in a grave and important manner —namely, to consider of measures to be taken for the removal of an officer of justice, whose situation was held as indepen dently of the Crown as any of the Judges of the land, and who could only be removed eventually by the agreement of both Houses of Parliament. He admitted that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had taken the more correct and moderate plan, by moving first tin the printing of the petition. Nor would he have objected at all to the course of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, having no intention to obstruct the investigation, but•that he thought that enough notice"had not been given on the, point of producing the a ffi davits, which part of the motion was now mentioned for the first time. A. question might arise, would the affidavits show the whole -of the case ? If not, should not some means be allowed to Mr. Kenrick to complete the explanation ? There was another objection of an incidental nature, which arose from the lateness of the Session: lf, from the press of business, no opportunity should present itself for going into the proposed investigation after printing and circulating the papers, would it not "be a great injustice, in that state of uncertainty, to allow Mr. Ken. tick to labour under the reproaches meant by them to be CM. veyed, for the space of six months before he could he heard in his own justification. He thought, at any rate, that the aflida. vits ought not to be printed. Mr. DLNAI A N did not wish to press for the printing of the affidavits. There could be no difficulty in finding an opportu nity, before the close of the Session, for this investigation. On the other hand, it was impossible for the House not to see the gross impropriety of allowing a Gentleman implicated in so grievous a charge, to go into another part of the country to ad minister justice among his fellows as the representative of the King's Majesty. Sir it. WILLIAMS bore testimony to the honest and up right manner in which Mr. Kenrick was believed to discharge his judicial dudes in Wales. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in order to temper the opinion into which the House might be led, took this oppor tunity of saying-that the question in the Court of King's Bench had never been. heard on the merits, but was thrown out on a ' point of form. One Counsel only was heard for Mr. Kenrick, but it appeared that he had written a statement of the case in a newspaper, and the Court held that it could not grant a cri minal information to a writer in a public newspaper. All that lie had to request for Mr. Kenrick was, that the House would reserve its judgment for the investigation. He himself was re lieved from much di ffi culty by the - elesire of Mr. Kenrick that the House should proceed. • Mr. SCAR LETT thought that the affiaariti ought not to be printed; they might be laid upon the table; anti Mr. Ken rick could intrust any friends of his within the House. to make the proper answers to the allegations of the petition. Mr. WYNN observed upon the hardship of proceeding against a gentleman upon the matter of sworn affidavits, when it might be urged against any thing which could be advanced for !inn in the unaworn examinations before the House, that equal credit could nut be_ given to it because it was not upon oath. Mr. STURGES iiOURNE thought that there would not be time enough for going through the investigiitiow before the dose of the Session, considering that the House of Lords must go over the sanie ground after this House had done with He thought the Motion ought to have been made a month sooner. Mr. H. SUMNE sible that the R thought it impos 'House or the Governnient should be wiUing to allow tide Gentleman to resume the eaereise of high judicial functions, until he was cleared front this charge brought against him._ What mar, among those who had to look up to him for justice could have any confidence in the worth of his judgment ? He wished while he was up to correct a mistake of his Hon. and Learned Friend near bilu, who lied represented the facts of the trial in which Mr. Keilrick w defendant, as if the prosecutor hid compromised with Mr. Kenrick. The offer of compromise; as he understood the case from very good authority, was first made from Mr. Kenrick. • - 7 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that the verdict was taken against Mr. Kenrick fur the M. damages, and costs as between solicitor and client. The parties themselves did not compromise, and he could not now aver with safety from which of the Counsel the offer first eaine. Mr. PEEL wished that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman hail cast his motioninto a more tangible form, by reducing At to a charge such as the forms of their proceedings might more conveniently entertain. Mc. DENMAN denied that it was any part of his duty to bring a charge against the gentleman whose conduct was to be called in question,. His part would be completed by bringing it to a complete investigation. It had been put upon him as it he had said, or intimated, that the affidavits contained the whole of the case. lie had said no such thing. _What he had said was, that Mr. Kenrick's own affidavits made the whole of the case against him ;• and he now repeated it, that those affidavits (not produced in defence, for Mr. Kenrick was the plaintiff ), - which turned his case out of Court, of themselves proved a case which made him out as utterly unfit for the situa tion of a judge. /llr. WYNN advised the 'House to be cautions,. and to pro ceed by the safest precedents. The proper form for the motion, he rather thought, would be a charge against the individual.= That was the course taken in the cases of Baron Page accused of bribery, and of Lord Ellenbornugh when charged with mal practice by Lord Cochrane. Both charges failed, but the form of proceeding was perfectly regular, and applicable to all other cases of this nature. If the affidavits were produced, it would be impossible for Hon. Gentlemen to divest their minds of this impression—that the charges against Mr. Kenrick would be upon oath, while his reply or defence would of necessity rest only upon his simple asseveration. Ile thought the preferable course would be to refer the whole matter to a Committee, as l in the case of the Chief Baron of Ireland. Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought it would be the greatest kind ness to the individual to proceed with all possibl dispatch to the investigation of this ease. It would be also only what was just towards him. Ile knew that the individual whose name was now brought into question would' willingly, 'ax far as depended on himself, wave all forms in the busi ness ; and that his only .anxiety was for the Immediate insti tution of an inquiry, which he was quite ready totneet—( Year ! —That gentleman felt that he could not, consistently with his own notions of the duties which he had had the honour of being appointed to discharge, continue to execute the important functions of a Magistrate until he had had the opportunity of clearing himself from these serious charges.--:( ear!)—Fie (Sir M. W. Ridley) knew nothing of the matter, of his own personal knowledge ; but . was quite aware of the earnest desire entertain ed by the individual hiniself, that the House would proceed as quickly as possible to investigate the question. Mr. CANNING recollected to have heard something of the imputed misconduct of this gentleman.; but he could safely declare that he had not read one word about the subject up to the present moment. From what he had been able, however, to collect, he thought that the course proposed by the Ilon. and Learned Gentleman was, in principle, perfectly fair; and after what had just been stated by the Hon. Baronet, would be .only just to the individual himself. As he (Mr. Canning) un- , derstood him, that lion. and Learned Gentleman proposed to lay upon the table, however, nut the substantive charge coupled with the documents referred to,but the sworn documents them selves, to which, with all the good-will which in such a case the House might be disposed to indulge towards the party, it was impossible that the party should have any opportunity of op posing testimony of equal authority ; this House having no ,forms by-which it was enabled to administer oaths to witnesses. If i .therefore, this court were to be pursued, the house would effect this inequality between the two parties that would be be fore it—namely, that the charge would.be ou oath, and the an swer would norbe.- . --(fltar!)—tiow, did ,he (Mr. Canning) from hence infer that no charge should be brought before them against Mr. Kenrick ? No such thing. But he contended that the charge should come on as on the solemn assertion of the party preferring it, so as to make the negation of the party against whom such charge was preferred of equal authority, as to form, with the affirmatiOn of the petitioner. On there grounds, but without at all meaning to say that such a duty was necessarily imposed on thellon. Menthes -for Nottingham, he thought that lion. and 'Learned Gentleman should : put the charge •in some shape or other, in which it would be fairly and equally met. Again, the affidavits, if produced, might contain a great deal of totally irrelevantlnatter, so that the individual might not know which of them, or which parts of them, it would be necessary for him to answer. and which not. But if the Hun. and Learned Gentleman would be good enough to put the charge-in some such form as seemed to havibeen appointed in the •case.of Judge Page, the natural consequence would be, that this-case would then be considered as soon as possible by the House. By the Mode at ; present proposed, in the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, there would be this glaring -injustice effected—that the person who was accused would be put, as to testimony, in a decidedly • worse condition than the accuser—that he.would be-disabled from defending himself with as good effect wx the party preferring the charge would be able to prefer it.—("[ear!) The petition 'Was then read. It was from Robert Canfor, of Stoke NewingtOn (a butcher), praying that the House would institute an inquiry into the truth of the statements contained in his petition, and adopt such .measures in relation thereto as it might think fit. • • -On the qtrestion " that it do lie upon the table," 'Mr. DENMAN took the opportunity of noticing the singu lar situation in which any man must stand in that House who brought forward matters of this kind. Ile should rather have thought, that bad he-introduced this question in the total ab sence of any affidavits- to support it, it would have been objected to him " that there was nothing in the case he had brought under their notice—( Hear !)—that it was matter he had picked up on mere hearsay, God knows where—that it was altogether averment merely, and not upon oath." But it now seemed, that the objection arged in this vise was, that the charge ass too solemn ; and that the disclaimer on the other side could not be equally so.—(Hear !)—Now, really in that case of the Chief Baron of Ireland, which was brought forward by the Honourable Member for Limerick, and which had been adverted to by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wynn), he could ,not recollect that any difficulty of this kind was started. There the only objection, if any, that was made was, that the statement was unfortunately but too 1 true. The fact was, that in that case Commissioners were appointed to inquire -into the business; there was no lath stantive charge; but. the House proceeded upon a certain number of facts on which those Commissioner% had report ed. Now, how was the objection in this case advanced on the other side of the house -to be met ? As far as he could be supposed to know -any thing of the facts imputed as against this individual, he (Mr. Denman) charged him with gross mis conduct. But then it wai, said that he should not do that, ex cept he brought in the affidavits upon which the judgment bad taken place. Why, • he again asserted, and for about the tenth time, those affidavits did not contain the charge that was now meant to be preferred. They would only show the mode in which Mr. Kenrick managed to get rid of that question by bringing his charge of libel against-the Morning Chronicle. He (Mr. Denman) now proposed, therefore, to have laid upon the table the affidavits made • by Mr. Kenrick himself, and by him brought forward in support of his application for a criminal information against the editor of the Morning Chronicle, to gether with a copy of that letter-of which lie had been proved to be the author, addressed to the -Stamford News, and which had prevented him from-having-his rule made absolute. Mr. CANNING obierved, that iii the case of the Chief Baron, the party was accused before his accusers were ex amined by the House; and therefore his asseverations and theirs were of equal weight. Mr. SPRING RICE said a few words, which we did not distinctly bear, to correct aome misapprehension of the Right Hon. Gentleman, in regard to the course which had been adopted in the case ()fait Chief Baron. Mr. BARING-really thought that the objections taken to the motion of his Hon. and - Learned Friend were such as might almost induce people to suppose, though he was perfectly sure such was not, in fact, the case, that Ministers had some desire to screen the individual complained of from the effect of the in quiries proper to be instituted by that House.—(Hear!)—lle thought, that great responsibility attached to some quarter or other for not having already brought a case of this importance— after all that had happened in it—before the House, anti leaving it to his lion. and Learned Friend to call upon Parliament to institute the proposed inyestigation. The first intimation which he (Mr. Baring) had received of this individual's conduct was from perusing in the newspapers the speech of the King's Attor ney-General; and when it was considered that learned person had made such charges in a public court of justice, it was quite evident that they must be presumed 'to be known to the whole kingdom. Supposing such aspeech bad been made by the Attor ney-General in respect of one of the Judges of the Courts at West minster, would it be possible that that persona.ge could be allowed to remain one of the judges of the land? (H ear !) or, at least, that , he should continue in that eminent station without the matter of such a speech being made the subject of inquiry and investi gation,before that House ? And because Mr. Kenrick was only a Judge of Wales, it could never be contended that it was not eqtially essential such a course should be adopted in respect to !)—lt was equally impossible to believe that the King's Attorney-General could have made such a speech as he had delivered on this subject in a Court of Justice, if he had not the strongest moral conviction on his mind that the charges which he had brought against Mr. Kenrick in the course of it— The ATTORNEY-GENERAL here observed, that that spe ,, eh was delivered by hi:n in his Capacity Of an Advocate only. Mr. BARING still thought that the. Hon. and Learned . Gentleman would not have made such a speech without feeling that there were strong grounds for it, and consequently for a solemn investigation into the matter. The Right Hon. Gentle man opposite had' told the House that they mutt suspend their judgments on this case.; but, unfortunately, Mr. Kenrick could not suspend his judgments, it should be recollected.— He *as about to go his circuit; and surely because Wales was a little and a distant plaCe, it would never he allowed that he I should do so till Parliament had examined these charges. Was a matter or such import to be postponed to next Session, merely because it was brought in at so late a period of the Session, and in such hot weather? His lion. and Learned Friend now proposed to bring forward the case on the affidavits of Mr. Ken rick himself, who desired, it was said, that the inquiry should be immediately proceed with. Now, on this account, there was an end of all that complaint, surely, which Right lion. Gentlemen had made of a want of reciprocity of evidence as between the parties. • I , Mr. DENMA N • repeated, that he would move for the pro- Auction of the affidavits brought in, in the Court, by Mr. Ken rick ; and also the affidavit of Mr. James, about the letter sent to the Stamibed Newt. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, Mr. PEEL, Mr. CANNING, and Mr. WYNN successively explained, that they had opposed the motion under the idea that Hon. and Learned Gentleman desired :he production of all the affidavits ; but to this modified 'proposition they would consent. . - Mr. DENMAN, after observing that he certainly thought it would have been the most rational course to have all the affi davits, moved—" that there he laid before the House the affi davits filed by Mr. Kenrick, in support of his application for a rule against William Clement; also the affidavit of Mr. James, which was filed in order to prove that Mr. Kenrick was the author of the letter published in the Stamford News."— i Ordered. • Mr. DENMAN gave notice that he would, hereafter move that such affidavits be printed. CHURCH ESTABLISHMENT OF IRELAND. Mr. HUME on rising to .submit a motion relative to the present state of the Church Establishment in Ireland, could assure the house that he was fully aware of the importance of the question he was about to meet, and of the responsibility attaching to any individual who introduced propositions of this consequence into Parliament. But, being strongly im pressed with the opinion that much of the evils which had so long afflicted Ireland arose from the present condition of its Church-Establishment, and that that establishment, so far from answering the purposes of its institution—the advancement Of the welfare and happiness of the peopie--operaterl upon them to imprecisely. contrary effect, he had determined to bring this Most important subject fully before the House. De would haVe de clined to do so, but cleat he believed so long as that establish. molt existed on its present footing, there could be neither peace, unanimity, nor security for Ireland herself. He would now shortly state the grounds upon which he had come to such an opinion and why the House ought to entertain his pro siti' w on, and, at an early period of the next Session of Parlia ment,l to inquire into the state of this establishment, with a view to efFecting such changes in it as the circumstances of the times and the country might seem to require. Having in three preceding Sessions entered at great length into the prin_ ciples, and stated the details upon which that proposition was bottomed, he would not now detain the House by going over the saute matters again. Many of the facts that he had ad vanced on former occasions in the discussion of this subject, and which were then most strongly contested, had been since conceded by those who then opposed him, and much of the argument with which lie was then met had been since, as .if it were by common consent, withdrawn : the main object of his motion, therefore, he could not help thinking had made some progress since he last stated it from that place. He was as well aware as any man could be of the necessity and importance of religious instruction in every com munity of people; and was quite satisfied, from his own ex perience in Scotland, of the benefits to be derived from-a sys tem, the pastors of which attended regularly to their sacred duties—were never absent from the sphere in which they were to be discharged, and were from January to December occupied in the anxious care of those who were confided to their ministry. From a system like this, much real benefit had always been, and ever would, be derived ; the public approbation must sanction it, and it would be found of the highest advantage to the community among which it obtained. He did not object, therefore, to the establishment as an establishment for affording religious instruction to the people, but lie called upon Parliament, as it formerly adopted the Protestant pro fession as the best calculated for the interest of the English people, and the Irish reformed church as lest adapted for Ireland, whether, in regard to the latter country, circuni stances had not since occurred which made it expedient for the legislature to revise what it had so done ? If it should be found that the present Irish Church Establishment was not in any-respect adapted to the due discharge of the duties it had to perform—or was larger than the state-of that country, or the nature of its society, required—or was better, paid than was ne ce.ssary, was it too much to say that the House would not be performing their duty if they did not alter its condition ? ( Hear !)—Paley had described a church establishrnent to be " only a means towards an end ;" and the same authority de clared that " religious establishments could not be shewn to form any essential part of Christianity, but were only the means of encouraging it; for it could not be proved that amonff the early Christians there - was any religious establishment " I• rum this authority he (Mr. Hume) inferred, that as Christians they were not bound to any particular established form of wor ship; but that it was competent to the Legislature,_ as hereto.' fore, to decide, if the establishment which it had formerly au tl:orised should be found not to haVe answered the ends pro. posed, upon altering it; that as Parliament had, once de termined for the Protestant, and at another time for the Roman Catholic religion, as the religion of the State ; so it might again change its determination in this respect. It was a favourite maxim with sonic, that with the estabushed religion of any State, the State itself must fall. Ile thought a more dangerous maxim was never broached, either as regarded the welfare of the Government or of the church. The Hon. Gentle tleman then went on to contend that the church, in all ages, had manifested its subserviency to the Government, which the lat ter had recompensed by the Rif„ of proportionate privileges and property. But lie was of opinion that the Government should always stand upon its own footing, independent of the Church ; for though the religious instructions of the latter might improve the morals, and therefore the happiness of the people, the close connexion of State and Church had never benefitted either the morals or the welfare of a nation. After disclaiming all im proper or unconstitutional intentions, which some, however ; might unjustly impute to him on the score of a motion of this kind, he proceeded to state, that in looking to soinething which took place in the time of King William 111., he really believed that at one period that Monarch intended to make the Roman Catholic religion the State religion of Ireland. In one of his letters to the Irish Government, written preparatory to sonic great public measure, it was well known that he requested them to pass an Act for the establishment ofsuch a religion as might be most agreeable to the general wishes of the people.— (Hear !)—Circumstances intervened to prevent the accomplish ment of this injunction, and matter of endles; regret it must be dint they should have done so ; for . had Ireland obtained the Roman Catholic as her established religion in the same way that Scotland had obtained the establishment of the Presbyterian as her's, there was every reason to believe, look ing to what had happened in Ireland withinthe last 120 years, that she would Intee enjoyed by this time a century of peace, happiness ' and prosperity, instead of anarchy and intserya-that she would now have been a flourishing nation, and England, instead of her jailer, as it were, would have been regarded by her as her benefactress.—(Hear !) — ln what condition was Scotland . when it was attempted to force upon her a ,religion which was not more generally disliked by the Scotch than Pro testantism now was by the great body of the Irish. people ae... Did not bloodshed, violence, and insubordination prevail, till Presbyterianism was finally established a. the religion of Scotland ?—( Hear I)—He was not now going to state whether Protestantism or Presbyterianism, or' the Polytheism of the Hindoos, or the faith of the Mussulmans, would he the best system for this or that country. All his speech would go to would be, to what the feelings, and the peace, and the welfare' of Ireland required for its established form of worship. This it would be the object of every good man, and every friend to his country, to ascertain: He then went on to argue that no history could show so unbroken a series of discontents, misery, and violence as the history of Ireland evinced ever since the Protestant religion had been there esta blished as that of the State. He had been most anxious to bring this subject on at an earlier period of the Session ; but had deferred the motion in deference to what he considered to be one of paramount importance—namely, the proposition of his Hon. Friend (Sir Francis Burdett) for the virtual eman cipation of time Roman Catholics of Ireland. As the measure introduced by his Honourable Friend, however, had failed in a subsequent stage, he was only the more anxious now to bring the question which he was now discussing untier the most serious consideration of the House. While the present church establishment of Ireland remained on its present foot ing, there could be no peace or happiness for Ireland.— Some people made a great outcry about the danger of any proposals touching alterations in the church establishment ; but their alarms, as Sir William Temple had well observed, were rather for the wealth, and power, and dignities of the Church Establishment, than for the safety of the Church. If the number or revenue of the Protestant Bishops and Clergy of the existing Irish Establishment were too large for the means, the circumstances, or the prosperity of the people, surely the system ought immediately to be revised. The lion. Gentle 1111W went on to argue, that the only real right in property was derived from the law, told that the power which conferred upite3 the Church the possession it held, could, if the public good seemed to require it. take it away. This principle had beets acted upon at the Reformation, and experience bad proved its wisdom and usefulness. He denied, however; that it could be said that a churchman had.the same interest in the benefice be held as any other individual Might have in a freehold estate which he had bought ; because there was no right either of sale during his life, or disposition after his death, vested in a Clergy man ; and any provision which the _Legislature might make for the disposition of ecclesiastical benefices. might be enforced with perfect justice (he thought, too, with great propriety) after the death of the living incumbents. The original institu tion of these benefices bed been with a view to provide for the education of the poor; hut this end had not been accomplished. In Ireland the number of Catholics who could not, of course. avail themselves of the advantages of education by Proteitant clergymen, was nearly seven millions. The numbers of the Catholic population of Ireland, compared With the ProteStants, were as one to seven ; the one-seventh being composed of per sons helongbtg to the established church and to dissenting sects. For this small proportion, this one-fourteenth of the established _ church, the numbers of clergymen of various sorts . exceeded' 500. The amount of property in the hands of these clergy men were, as he thought he could convince the House, in every case too large. The bishopricks, the value of which might be accurately estimated as Well from the papers on the table of the House as from the statistical account of Ireland published by Mr. Wakefield, were of an extent cud value which no man could pretend to justify. That of Armagh appeared to contain d 3,270 acres, and was of the annual value of 51,880/. ; that of Cloglier, 27,070 acres, produced annually -31,5891. What he would propose to do with these over- • grown sees was 'what had been sticcesaftilly practised be fore. It bad at a former period been thund expedient in Ireland to reduce the numbers of the clergy by uniting . • bishopric. and parishes. Ele sew, therefore, no mason why the numbers should not now again be doubled up.—(Laughter.)=-- He thought that four Bishops, instead of the present number. of 22, would be enough to direct the spiritual affitiri of the Pro testants in Ireland. He thought that every man—he was sure' every reasonable man—upon considering the amount of pro perty held by the various Bishops of Ireland, would agree with him that it was much too large to be left in the hands of any individuals performing such functions as they were called upon for. He did • not mean, he said, to reflect personally upon any any of the Bishops ; because he durst bay if he were one of them, he should be-as glad as they were to retain the possession of their large incomes. —(A laugh.)- a Still he was sure that one-hundredth part of the sums now paid would be an ample remuneration for as many Bishops as were really necessary. The lion. Member then alluded to a speech tie livered by the Bishop of Limerick in the House of Lords, and which, he said, as the Right Rev. Prelate had chosen to publish -it, and so. send it to the world, he had a right to remark upon. The language of the Bishop, who said that ha• (Mr. Hume) had used in his statement to the House last year language better suited for the table of the convicted libeller on Ludgate-hill than for a Member of Parliament, was at least somewhat harsh and angry. It must be admitted that these were ungentle terms, anti although they came from a Bishop were rather savouring of abuse.—(A laugh.)—But he had • graver objections against the Bishop—that of his statements being untrue. The Bishop charged him (Mr. Hume) with having said there 531 non-residents ; and a Right Hon. Gen tleman not now present (Mr. Plunkett) said in the House, oti the authority of the Bishop, that there were only from 20 to 30- • —This was, however, at the best, -only an evasion of the fact. because lie (Mr. Hume) called' non-residents all clergymen who did not actually reside upon the livings they held; but the Bishops, who looked at these things in a different point of view, thought that although a clergyman was not resident, yet if he had any other duties to perform, this circumstance ex cused his absence, and made him, as lie called it, virtually.re sident. He (Mr. Hume) was however prepared to substantiate . his own statement, and as far as regarded the diocese, of Lime rick and of Ardfert end Aghadoe, to which alone it was neces sary on this occasion to allude, he would read an extract front the Parliamentary Papers of 1824, by which it appeared that in Limerick there were 51 benefices and incumbents, of whom there were 21 non-residents; in Ardfert and Aghadoe, 44 bene fices and incumbents, -of whom there were 22 non-residents making in the whole 95 benefices, of the incumbents of which , 43 are non-residents, including 9 dignitaries of the see. But yet the Bishop of Limerick, in the pointed speech lie had quoted, averred, of his own knowledge, " that in his own dio cese there is not one clergyman who (is non-resident) wantonly deserts his appointed sphere of duty." In the Bishop's sense.. indeed, there were few non-resident clergy in Ireland; for he explained further, that " no clergyman is accounted st non resident who is employed in parochial duties in any part oi the country ;" so that if an incumbent has three or ten bene fices, and discharged the duties in one of them, he was not to be considered a non-resident on the other two or nine. M a i said to th c a o t n iti tr , at ci d . (Mr. Hume s) statement had also encountered another reverend opponent in the person of the Archbishop of Cashel, who , in' thathis c statement harg e to pia s d f i a o r c a es s e r i e n i a l t B e ( 2 1 4 t , o not hesitate lie his see. terford every incumbent was resident, and that in Lismoeconlf six incumbents could be questioned as to the non-residence meaning, perhaps, to give to non-residence the same exteos' e 7 explanation as the Bishop of Limerick. But the fact appe ar to be," by the Parliamentary returns of the same year, that t o Waterford there were 10 benefices and incumbents, of whfl i a , there were three non-residents ; and in Lismore 42 benefi:e and incumbents, of whom there were 20 non-re:Me i * making in the total 52 benefices, and of these 23 were alo e _ g e The reasons given for the non-residence of sonic of these ri e • sons were singular enough. One was supposed by , Bishops to be reasonably exempt from residing on his t en ing, because lie was a -surrogate elsewhere, and had the &P r. % of that office to perform another; because he resided . 0 his deanery in Dublin, and so on. lie should now dittntt e.. this subject, to which he had only been induced to allude , X li , cause the Bishop of Limerick did not hesitate to charge T el/ with having made incorrect statements, and said that if ( t , "Tg were occasioned by the misrepresentations ofothers, sh tt e , regret them, but that if they were wilfully put forward , To • he should find it painful to apply to them the epithet wit e_ they would deserve. This he (Mr. Hume) thought was st,,l'o'4 cinien of what was meant by the common expression of " Win os a man in a genteel way, that he lied." If it were so, be Ir I•iv say that it came with with a peculiarly ill grace from 11 Rev. Person whose book was hill of lies. lie might excuse mis-statements in any ingenious way he would—he mi htLer vide a salvo for his conscience `by means of some quite a se. explanation of what non-residence meant, but still he ( a ir e a , flume) thought he would fail to persuade persons, who e mp g things by their right names, that residence meant any tul a s but an incumbent's living upon his benefice, and among Whe flock the care of whose souls he was enstrusted with. O ho Honourable Member then proceeded to observe, that :re conduct of the clergy, in collecting their tithes, was vet:Y ee :iv • pressive. tie had in his possession warrants which ha d u in s• issued to levy a tithe of twopence-halfpenny. Another p? . , e. . to which he was desirous of calling the attention of the fir t hs was the constitution of Consistorial Courts. It was % i d l e first importance that the judges who had to decide upon_b a ta causes should be impartial; but how could that be, . 1 ' „„i. clergymen were allowed to act as judges ? It was, in Itso nion, extremely impolitic to permit clergymen to estetcoie ee l o . judicial functions. By doing so, they only brought w oo . selves into contempt. In conclusion, the Hon. ittensber, the tended, that if he had shown, as be thought he had, th.` oe s Church of Ireland did not fulfil the object for which Pio, instituted, it was perfectly proper for Parliament to reu t th e it. He then moved the following resolutions :—'` property now in the possession of the Established se" leg ie in Ireland is public property, under the controul of the, slature, and applicable to such purposes as in its ws . . °. d Of may deem beneficial for the best interests of religiOns r „ fd Of the community at large, due regard being had to the eit'7 r o , every person in the actual enjoyment of any part of sue r u in perty." "2d, that this House will early in the next Def et inquire whether the Establishment of the Church of Irelr o lds not greater than is commensurate with its services, b et ase ottic regard to the number of persons employed, and the which they receive." Sir F. BURDETT seconded the motion. be ifY Mr. CANNING said, that however much he migh t for (dined to find fault with the Ilon. Member for Abern e e c nat L the -tone of his speech, and the proposition which h; d oe brought forward, he could not say of him that he ha eu r e ei, about his business in a covert way—that he had kept batesaeo free and frank explanation of the experiment which he f% amble to prevail upon the House to try with respect to the Establishment of Ireland. He must do the Ildn,l re elt Member the justice to say, that he had plainly .an urea stated the object be had in view, which had been t beit,, others on former occasions, as to the neceseary res ult co tan arguments, but which he did not recollect any individual a nd the Hon. Member for Aberdeen to have boldly avowe d the placed in the front of the battle. Before he subroit te"O Hoase a very few observations, he would request the equscil read the article of th e A c t of Union which related to the establishment in Ire read land. 10 1 " the fifth article of the Act Of 0 tiP 1 which declared that d i e c h ur ches of England and Delano s ojee e be united in one P ro t es t an t Epi s cop a lian church, to ti to I ) to the Same laws, and th a t arrangement should he tiu' e a fundamental part of the Union. tha t e Mr. CANNING resumed.—lt was an advantag e sec f a ae use - sO coming to the Consideration of the question, the P ° 100 )9 0 1 placed in no circumstances of uncertainty, they were not i B. atu re o in mystery and forgott e n time. The sense of the isegi s : a oct° l l o the subject was not to be gathered from statutes, t h e con. ve fro of which might be doubtful or which might be ineffeet'o yr disuse: but they had a clear distinct authority, onlY