The Sun. — London, England, 1842-03-15 00:00:00

14,phoen Viand. -'-"..."*."."".".--'" ... ". " ... " . " .. " . ..........7,...0.....r t...e50........ at least to the extent of ss. an acre, i nto ,?ent lion: Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) went nisei. ll°, disc ton, but there were no grounds whatever fo r f il e( ' by the Right Honourable Bat onet as a reason pert atio P c ' s i ng a higher r a t e o f d uty upon the im e„,ht ,! of foreign corn, but the reasoning of the jo;irtntionourable Baronet being of such incalculable be esaidnee upon the subject, he, (Mr. Ward) hoped that j attoen to -night s , - .nlght advert to some of the r e asons which ps land w r - " ilint Mr. Al‘Culloch - said he believed that skies,xmore heavily taxed in England than any other rea son f Proeerty in the country, and he assigned as a e sao ,,,_ ,L or duty on corn, that it should be sufficient to el sia r,r et those burdens ; but that opinion was based taxes assumption that land was more heavily At iii rta any other description of property. Mr. at (44 4 ' 11 also said, " that so long as taxation 41 1 s l i,„ all clas ses equally, none of them had kore se ": to complain, b ut w h en taxat i on b egan to press t he ip,-,. e i rely on one class than on others, that moment Prok eti e Ll avily taxed class were entitled to equivalent timore i t °I.L . The question then was, whether land was ihise queeastviinlyn t a e s d than any other species of property ? not whether the burdens on land in sr or; itry were greater than those of Prussia or Poland, Es g i ar e i eountries--they were to show that the land of Ltird er ; here peculiar burdens—not only that they were aft in ' ,00t that they were imposed upon the land, kbj eet e t re lY for the benefit of those classes who were en t i tio 0 those burdens, but for other classes who were tae nts " I. to protection. Mr. M'Culloch's other argu lkrty r t.. to show that land was a species of pro vio,le t i at could not be concealed—that it was more that it t t an other species of property, and, therefore, I llseel i 6 w as more heavily taxed. Then, as to the he snit f the Right lion. Baronet himself (Sir R. Peel), aseet:dille preferred the principle of the descending and h otivi et l i g B eale of duty on foreign corn ; however, the 410 11.13 . 1 wis upon that subject entertained by the Right, did not usenet at present appeared to be entirely new; he 1 , 44 he c t i ,, l Ftalu them to anything like the same extent Zrousia:',. In 1834. The question was at that time qeart - - 11°Ilard by Lord Chandos, who drew a most sr ehd . tit th at 111 Picture of the state of the agriculturists i ia gwort rlc a, and stated that their condition was becom 'hi 1834 tree day. During the discussion of the question ab out o;l , e re Was a great deal of talk and observation ,i`, se lY e fi„" a ,rdens then borne, but they were not pre --e ext r e - " e o• Every speaker, almost, dwelt upon Other tftaosdiea.ry extent of tithes, the poor-rates, an h d e Profit s of le s; which, they said, would swallow up all t Ives a t he land. There was hardly a subject that Ilea •••,,,,_°t adverted to. Mr. Cobbett, who was at Str , - "e in the House, attributed the whole Lln.Y es t - 0 W hich was then suffered in the coun \',.t% al e° the standing army. The malt tax ;7 4 1t t 3; a dverted to. Lord Chandos represented the TP% e a r „ - ,, tit n en, as amounting to between 70/. and 801. ' l 4 t h 's., ‘ Y termer who had 250 acres of land. At that l iv n 4 sth eni,'leliiher for Lincolnshire said that the malt tax 17 t 4 e t - ' 6B t lojudicious--the most partial, and unjust of ' t ot, 0 ,,, n 1e- ' and the Right. Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) upon 'tots esion rode the storm most gallantly. The Right e° llsecZ a tlet pointed out what must be the inevitable , i , 4 , C a - ,` ll ,ces of the repeal of that tax—ho• said if it ~..s - 4 (3 1, 4 'ed they should come to the property tax. t'sll was, the n Right Honourable Baronet eese lr4 , l4 , that i t was better to bear " the light r ope r t ; O f a malt tax than the dreadful scourge ot; o a r lk I'o4 t ax." The Right Hon. Baronet the Member h ie Q,,"er, who was not then so nearly connected with 4. ,` 4 1441 i„ ve ,rurnent as he was now, enumerated the burdens ''' tia, n4a l. Poo tes, he said, pressed heavily, but as iv -ses Poor -rates, h that something °IN k ; there was reason to hope . 1 i t ,.. 1 *e t _ done to lighten their weight. Then VW the county , ' rates, a reduction of that 41 11% as distinctly promised to the landed interests. te a , e authorities on the subject had overruled the ar ;ll.le le ll a t. s The peculiar burdens which were borne by isle ad were, even according to the Right Honour iikheavr!net, only three —poor-rates, county-rates, and 4 :tiler s ° ,f a tes, and for these it was contended that the teeter were entitled to a compensation far beyond 8s a e • All the other burdens had been removed . — ts , tax a ll s n s l iPon farm servants, upon dogs, upon horses Weed remain()" agricultural labour ; and in those burdens V 'sN t s a.ed, and which the Right Hon. Baronet sup , Fe at "e farmers to bear exclusively, there had been a • t eeald progressive di m i nut i on. I n 1834 the amount, t 4 ,14 4 '.. 1 ag to the returns, was 6,879,0001. In 1837, it was .411 1 84 " ,, 41/, ilv " the which showed a reduction of 36 per cent. But Olt b diminution was only 26 per cent. If you • nt all as ,' l ' a few years earlier, for instance to 1820, _the_ *ll4 it ; would be found to be 9,685,0001. Mow he asked ' 4 th„ l is e r the period of the larger or the smaller amount tear, oturdee the compensation was to be given S__- ' e % tt - ' nea r.) ' If any compensation were given, it would ' , lei e6nlPensation for ma-spending—it would be to , h - ja,,l i e other people to reimburse t . he farmers for hay 'nut ° wed their poor-rates to run high.—(Hear, hear.) -/ di, tr t i t.t all L b„, events the compensation could not be fairly : "Ilete as sed, and in giving it to the farmers you would ,t'ti r T e ~the burden of the towns. Look at the pro tle (I s l e ' agricultural property to otherkinds of property. killi tole rental of agricultural land was thirty-nine trt‘? 43 and a half. The rental of other kinds of pro ' kteioalts thirty-three millions and a half ; and the s i nl - 1 1 -L e en - I, which was to protect the one, was a heavy " 4 1d e toPoo the other, and greater than all the b urtn: ki:iq w , i Press exclusively upon the land. frtPulif 3 ' B Were very heavily taxed. The agriculturists ik aye; 116 - A t a nY that they had done much to ke mil 1, ,p , - ; t it they took good care to tax them when any , ~,, a - a l e(1 , through a parish, and these roads were fri, t -47 ;hi h r d g u r i l to tho poor-rates. In . fact, more than, trs'e ~ ss the poor-rates were paid by property e. o l' it SS'elt with agriculture. The land was furtlT..re • `it a ri; ° ' Part of its share of the burden by the shifting ~_,Ao P oPulation into the towns, which had amounted ~`L; l ttl rS °o o persons since the last census. The agri . - 'or .( Sits had no more right to come to that _H . House tes a : ll Pensation for their poor-rates at the p n u f bli L c aemx eth !lien the parish of Marylebone, or ke; il ad to come for the payment of their I te (514 of the Consolidated Fund. Another e e oee7 so-called exclusive burdens was th 4 t;-tat e• Now that impost was only the means ,_ pre v i a . e e 4 '' llr ig for the administration of . justice the OS 4 , protection of property ‘l6 rOu t y - I, l " r e:than the Legislature took care to compel the town „,b",s to submit to. When the charter was given to 'ltsi ate itch he had the honour to represent, the Secretary 1411. 1 3 -1113°P1 a. provision for a similar impost for similar aPe°ses• Therefore this was no exclusive burden 141 1sac t g r ioniture, nor one which called for com ertc ,1) -- 1 ,? 4.-- (Hear, hear.) Again, looking to h aat °3 / 41 - "uu of arable and pasture land, it would be seen th e en nlpensation to the holders of the one wou d . b t t °C,, p a tlniostice to those who held the other. The quanti y td ‘ , -11r c land was 14000,000 of acres—that of arable Zete ar t" as 20 ,000,000.—(Here the .. Honourable Gen- Pet w as heard very indistinctly.)—With re veret t it ? the highway-rates, why . the roads Z l tl tb,„`_e streets of the agriculturial . districts, i^Nh-,' had no more right to come to the public for the ' r -iotL., e of those ways than the people of the City o Air ~11 would have to come to the House ti ad ;re disbursement of the lighting, paving, all -eansin from the Consolidated Fund. But 1 „ t i t _ g ! s w "le i t . " t. Main trunks were supported by tolls. lit ,e t i ( ! r 'w,ay-rate went . to keep up the cross-roads which a „ the convenience of the farmers alone, and what „ -4 4 farm without roads ? We could . draw a t e-Ortion of our supply of corn from . Spam, but ete a-le are not sufficient roads communicating between I h ere- -g l ic ulturardistricts and the sea ; and in Germany e,"tr s swaB abundance of corn in the interior, but there At .tot • it to the coast. e sufficient means of conveying Lb tke lirfle 3 / 4 , 11 Caine to tithes, which he said were not a Lite t o : ( nt the agriculturists. It was a co-proprietary. l' e o d 'ill s took the land subject to tithes, and they v ' t !tit t i tt lilY paid the less rent. He differed from many n e ed ouse on the subject of tithes. He had his own e , 4, 1 4 : to the purposes to which that property should ',4l' e ''. l ,ed• -But he maintained, however, that it was .s 4 i ths t.r°l3 ertY, and the payment was no more a burden i 3 r - i , farmer than was the payment of his rent. pit\ '''tkos, the were certainly a burden on the te s,7t ' 54,14 for relief th y should look to the Commutation aelitn..dultll„"nr"gressethrough the country, not to the s ates 111, 3 ‘ , , ', s a o t n foreign i corn. But the landlords had 'lt ever to redress on this account. Church ' ,S tl e r w %t al so spoken of as a burden on land, but really 4146 °s t 't I OC e amount was miserable, not exceeding .s iti 'tfl itt Pie .1) on a rental of 40,000,0001. ; one-third of this ~.t ! 's es by Dis e ters The Honourable Member for i 11t.l. - it " hi s n ne ' ' rters called Church-rates a ' ttg e tt e ,, l , l ter t . PrsVer s ty, Sti i,s ° sessed by the Church from l ';; Ite a ,. 4 t,k, • ' lla ea . then they should hot also call them a '. -ttt. (14 land ; f or which they were entitled to com il ker. 14 11. .; . d punt paid by the land for ' lee., l :ttle a I n 1839 ' le L , (4. ti •, 1 q Land county -rates 5,412,685 L, and de (l ,"Y t 5,,4 t ' 11() amount 'at. county .rates, the of justice ‘dministration j il ikl t „," I„, ° ,r and the ' It Their share of the • 'ate,-,,,'hy- ra - ,"(t was 3680,00 u.• making the whole '' l ,4Bi' l lt b tt; ;'s was 534,946/., • . e landed interests 3 / 44,4 ta4 , 376 /. . , t ni local taxation by th. 1 5 4 , 4 (4, 400 / "f the general taxation, .amounting to i t : ver,'' the proportion they paid would be 4 ( I b 14 ' l4 ll 1 sinall ; but coming to the isqutta,x lil t o a nd e e found that it was shifted li","'ut • ''t 411 44 last sea as the latter sprang up. The la . nd- . s. s 4l i 1)e ,!a, on ss.Year was 1,817,341/., of which there had .s'a c , 'aieh 'toes I,ll7The latter kind of property, 4 a . ,1 5 - 11 4 1lie 1 1 ( , ) trmeh of he burden had been shifted, might , \vh; l ,, t4 s tA) - I, 4v° Sprung t up . within the last 150 years. If the 111 leii o o e r ," C f a ; r e noW paid as it was originally imposed, foW''‘'ooS - 1 s - in the pound, the amount would be '' 1 -ton w a d mit, even in agricultural districts, a great t a ' tL' Pr. I:I P : 1 '0 by household property. Though his 1, 4 ; 4 41 "' h, ~ ,' Member for Bolton did not procure the ' il tsr 4tallerted fur the other night,. we had still • . t he e ats p a ., It data as to the proportion the I . a e n n d s e o d f si S tate Paid in other countries towards the burdens • Th as , ' O OO s e whole revenue of Prussia was Tit Ptad.t a ('' thalers, of which the land pa . id . ie3/414141tri 1h_26,000,000, or more than one-half. kiiii Paid 8 7 1 o to revenu e was 164,000,000, of which the •• t he 41.11 and ' ° ° ,o oo. In France the revenue was one fr o 'old savelt hundred and fifty thousand francs ; n , til l s l tiori u 5 t a ti e , 359 ,499,000 francs. In Belgiura ar t g h e e . Itts as tand t ..L' t "! by the land was also very 0 1,. , k tki glit dram, in England was not a fourth thetobacco, t, Ao lir , not 41 ' a r from the poor man's I, V. 0111,1 not in to than the amount raised upon ~...fie " se y . '"ere was the window tax, which no one e k , sxf 4l noue t 1 2 n ." a peculiar burden on the land i 4 i t . th utis th e oi the window tax was 1,400,000/., and 4, 'awl • k w . to t ,i ; th -owners paid, perhaps, one-third. 4, 1 e ~t lls, 44_a vi e taxes on horses dogs, carriages, and er n' J e eted il ga , the landowners -. n o t the only Avg ;.,. , e oati. tia the were _ , ve si., itrofj rid t 45 .. 1 , 11 e • But if they gave them the exclusive 4.5. with NI h eart. ut dnties on dogs, game certificates, and , e s l i *" ken, Lugs, this would be about 389,0001., leaving, ar r em , oth er t 4iSi"liss 4 .xat 4l °f a xes, 1 „812,000/. es their share of the (...a el ega„, tohe ~.___ , tne country. It must be recollected . -''' I ' le 411 Y "ua t il ; r of landowners and occupiers * t bi , r ttr Oix atio B ' ;° OO . Against the local and the' ' ge e' Alt* * il of this class, they had also later ,i4taspecial exemptions. In the first place, el eMptetl from stamp duty, which was of the French !nt of the Coen - - that then 6 !, d satisfied th. nment, but that his opinion, • discussion in o f Deputtei rench MintsW. ter of a British: to expect an ex: t he found tho th, stated that I sent hy [rid, in on to 'the verri me nt.. 11-.; Lich confidol honour 0f,0r.., )11 ic t that ()VIP , ord Aher , ter w 'Minister o terse adopted by, the deliver} whether Lerl despatch; hr., chhe orioles ro the. 1 ',fere' 09 iv frvthat .ta e pro' Jo' be ti 'ipto no voi" ell° red '" I" P • iverl l ' Fish f th e 0 1 0 „„1 , Pl l) ''c ir • i ; 11 a dito rt- v o Y to nt Cotort"6/4 ).ENS r)ronlittee f,O • he" P e et! un to v‘, i ypt .tice the P re h t t b r ouA tent ()rev 3te(l, ln the °'"'" From A : 9 paro yie stateit.,lltecii abOI P It W A ?„0 - 8 1 Ada i" ) >een,ilegr,; t. , •—t, ,a 0 i 06 re rito ° 4 ,oo ;re bus paid by all except the landlords. The probate duty for 1841 was 197,0001., and legacy duty, 1,200,0001., not one shilling of which was levied on real. property.- (Hear ' hear.) The sale of lands, tso, was only occa sional, but the transfer of other property was perpetual, and personal property was always taxed in its transmission. On the transfer of landed. property of the value of seven hundred pounds, and not exceeding one thousand pounds, there was a stamp duty levied of 9/., but on a transfer of personal-property, in consequence of death, of the value of 8001., and not exceeding 1,000/., then: was a probate -duty of 22/., in addition to the legacy duty. On a transfer of landed pro perty of the value of 8,000 i., and not exceed ing tO,OOO/., there was a stamp duty of 851., which on a transfer of personal property of the same amount there was a probate duty levied of 240/. in addition to the legacy duty. If they took the stamp duty at 2 ? 000,000/., the utmost that the landed interest contributed to the stamp duty was half a mil lion, leaving one million and a half to be set against what the landed interest were pleased to call their peculiar burdens. When they came to consi der the exemptions of the landed interest from taxations, they were really infinite. They paid no probate duty, they paid no legacy duty ; and since 1797 upwards of 81,000,000/. had been paid for probate duty and legacy duty on personal property ; and the House ought not to forget, that when the probate duty and the legacy duty: were first proposed by Mr. Pitt, he in tended that both kinds of property should be equally subject to it. The Bill to that effect had been brought in, and had been carried through that House after immense opposition. It had been carried on the third reading by the casting vote of the Speaker, and had afterwards been dropped as a peace-offering to the country gentlemen, and since that time no Minister had brought it forward. He (Mr.' Ward) was sorry to find that even the Right Hon. Baronet did not consider himself powerful enough to propose it. He (Mr. Ward) had heard nothing of a proposal for the extension of the probate duty and the legacy duty to real property in the. Right Hon. Gentleman's statement of Friday. Their exemptions from smaller duties were innumerable. The farmer paid no duty on the insurance of his stock ; every other species of propertypaid a duty on insurace. There was no window tax paid on farms under 200/., and there were none upon dairy win dows. Upon a recent decision of the Judges he found the houses occupied by bailiffs were exempt. He (Mr. Ward) had paid window duty for the house occupied by his bailiff last year, but ho should do so no more ; so that he should gain something from his re searches on this question, whether the country did or no. (The Hon. Gentleman here read the decision of the Judges in the case of Lord Middleton's bailiff; to the effect that houses occupied by farm bailiffs were exempt from win dow duty. Then there was an exemption from tolls, for lime, manure, and agricultural implements ; there were no drainage tolls, and, there was no duty on shepherd dogs. There were, in short, a thousand things in which the fact of a man being a farmer exempted him from duties which lie would otherwise have to pay. From examining the cases of dispute respecting as sessed taxes which had come before the Judges, he found that not only had the house of a bailiff been ruled to be exempt, but a house occupied by a brick maker, who was also a farmer, paid no duty. As a brick maker he paid duty, but as a farmer he was exempt, and his exemption as a farmer covered his liability as a brickmaker. The same decision was given in the case of a wheelwright, a land-surveyor, and a cattle jobber, who, being also farmers, were exempted. Amongst a number of letters which he had received on the subject of his motion was one from a person in busi ness near Edinburgh. He said he 'was living at a little distance from Edinburgh. He occupied a house to which there were tan windows, and these were assessed at I/. lOs. His neighbour, who had a house with fifteen windows, for which, together with land, he paid a rent of 190/., paid no duty. Again, for every 100/. he insured on his stock in trade, he paid a duty of three shillings to the Government. His neighbour being a farmer, was a privileged man ; he paid no duty. Again, lie was assessed for his saddle horse 11. l ls. 6d. His fortunate neighbour paidno duty. If his friend wished to have a public sale of his stock, he could do so without a license ; whilst he himself must employ an auctioneer, or take out a license, and upon every article sold he was liable to pay a duty of 5 per cent. He did not make these remarks for the purpose of instituting an invidious comparison between the farmers and the other classes of society; who were a meritorious class of persons, and deserved every encouragement ; but ho could not see why there should be this distinction, why, if the principle were a good one, it should not be extended to the various branches of trade and manufactures.-(Hear.) At all events, those who enjoyed these exemptions had no right to complain of peculiar burdens. It was very easy to call everything a peculiar burden.-(Hear, hear, hear.) He had no doubt that before another year had expired, they would hear that the income tax was a very peculiar burden on the farming interest. -(Laughter.) Now he would call the attention of the House to the amount of taxes upon the farming interest. The local taxation was 4,336,0001. ; the general tax ation was 1,812,0001. ; making a total of upwards of 6,000,000/. Deduct 2,000,0001., at least, for pro bate duty and legacy duty, and 500,0001. for all minor exemptions, and 4,149,0001., was the total local and general taxation payable upon land with a rental of 130,500,000/.-4Hear, hear.) He had taken some pains' to obtain an account of some assessments paid in London, and at a short distance frotia it. He found a farm which paid a rent of 323/. The poor rates upon that farm were 69/. ; the sur veyor's rate was 17/. 3s. ; the Church-rates, 41. ss. ; making a total of §5/:, without the land-tax, which was 23/. NoW with respect to property in London. In the parish of St. James's a house, for which 200/. rent was paid, was subject to a yearly charge 'of 17/. Bs. for local taxa tion. In Piccadilly, in the same parish, where the rent of a house amounted to 1301., the whole of' the taxes came to 111. 17s. 9d. He took a house in the City, the locality was Bishops.. gate-street, and the rent was 1201. The poor rate was 121.. 10s. ; Church-rates, 71. 10s. although the occupiers were Dissenters ; Police-rates, 8/. 10s. ; Assessed taxes, 12/. 10s. ; Consolidated rate and clearing rates, 2/. 10s.; Sewer rates, 31., making a total of 42/. 10s. upon a house in London, while the rental was 1201. Now, with this fact, how could they " talk of the peculiar burdens which are felt on land, and ask for more compensation than Bs. of duty a quarter on foreign corn ? He did not see that there was a difference between these various species of property ; and he did not see how claims could arise upon one species of property that was not equally applicable to other species of property. He could not see on what grounds they were to compen sate one class at the expense of another, and that compensation to be given by a tax upon food. This was the simple ground brought forward in that speech, from which he had so largely quoted, entitling the land of this country to a large-the Word used was more-protection than would be-given at an Bs. duty, as proposed by the Noble Lord, the' Member for London. The effect of a duty was not to be calculated from the price raised upon foreign wheat imported; but what was the price of the whole amount of corn consumed in this country. It was in point of fact the rise in prices on all food. If twenty millions of quarters of wheat were consumed at a duty of Bs., that duty would produce eight millions, and if at 4s. four millions. which was enough to cover the whole of the burdens which he could discover affected the landed interest. Fourteen or fifteen shillings duty, which was what the Right Hononourable Baronet contein. plated to be the . average, supposing the corn came in at 12s. to 165., that would add 15 millions to the price of corn consumed. This, too, was a tax for the benefit of the landlords ; for the public re ceived but a fraction of it. This had been denounced by many of our public servants. lie could not quote better names than Hume, M'Gregor, and others, who were all unanimous in opinion, as to the effect of any duty being imposed on foreign corn. A Committee was but a preliminary step to any legis lation upon the subject of the Corn-laws. He might be ' told that the present was a matter of mere political economy-of mere opinion-and :has it did not admit of being sifted by a Committee of that House.-(Hear.) But they had Committees upon subjects very analagous in their nature ; they had Committees upon the Import Duties last year ; he hail found a very high authority for the motion which he had submitted to the House ; and which showed that it Would be likely to be attended with the most useful practical effects, The authority in qnestion was that of the Right Hon. Baronet himself (Sir Robert Peel.) He found that in - the year 1839, upon the motion of Lord Chandos, the Right Hon. Baronet recommended a Committee very similar to that which he (Mr Ward) then proposed to the House. The Right Hon. ; Baronet on that occasion complimented Lord ' l Altherp on his determination to discontinne the charges upon the horses of farmers, and other bur dens which pressed upon agricultuists. The Right Honourable Baronet added that " he wished the Noble Lord would consent to appoint a Committee of intelligent Members of the House to consider the whole question of those taxes which bore directly or indirectly upon agri culi,7lsts ; and to inquire whether the whole system of local taxa tion, including the costs of criminal pro secutions, county rates, &c. were fairly appropriated." That was a passage - which very much confirmed him (Mr. Ward) in the belief that the Committee he now pro posed . might produce great benefit to the country. -(hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet had there asked for an Inquiry in favour of the agriculturists ; and he (Mr. Ward) now asked for an inquiry in favour of the other classes 'of the community. The agriculturists were then distressed-the other classes were now suffering. Ile only wanted to arrive at the truth ; he wanted something tangible -something which could form a safe basis for legislation. He did not like to see a suspicion spring up in the country ; that one class, owing to its preponderance in that House, was favoured at the expense of every other. Let them appoint a Committee of intelligent Members of that House, and they would thus, in any future discussion, be enabled to point out the pusullar burdens which pressed upon agriculture, while the country, nu discovering their claims to protection, would be ready to acifnowlafige their justice. With these views, he had certainly felt justified in moving for a Committee before any further progress was made in the discussion on the Corn-laws. He felt his own ineility to deal with it, its if involved many matters of detail which were always nnpalatable to the House. But he did most earnestly beg HIP Right Honourable Baronet to promise to grant them this c om mittee, for, if he did, he was perfectly satisfied, 4 1 , 0 , e 1d is; hp fairly and impartially appointed, that it would Lead to Yen' R*44 Arid satisfactory results. His own opittioft id At t fatOteF.q : , ;Tee pp peculiar burdens on land-(Hear, hear)-Psseept WOW WNW if 6)IS-Wsi in proportion to its value as property ly nen tt was re- membered that it had been stated frequently that the land exceeded t he be o theri) expectedrtpitroo ft there kbe sh naturally a l to it was n some charges on it more th a n on other pro- m, THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVRNIN - Gr. MARCH 15, 1842. perty. He begged, therefore, to move—" That it is in expedient to impose any duty upon the importation of foreign corn, until this House shall have inquired whether there are any special burdens peculiarly affecting the landed interest of this country or any special exemptions enjoyed by that interest, and shall have ascertained their nature and extent." Mr. S. CRAWFORD seconded the motion Col. T. WOOD (Brecknockshire) said he would only address a few observations, as the subject was so mitch exhausted after so many nights' debate, that if he at tempted to occupy the House at any great length, it would not be disposed to listen to hire. Though the Hon. Member seemed to think that there *ere no peculiar burdens on land, and went through a long string of figures, in which he could not very clearly follow him, in order to make oat that the land was not very heavily burdened, yet he held in his hand a paper that had been laid on the table of the House, which he thought would show that there was one peculiar burden in which the poor of the country was deeply interested, and for which the land was peculiarly responsible. In 1826 it appeared that the poor rate was no less than 6,966,0001., of which 4,795,000/. was paid by land, anti 1,814,000/ by dwelling-houses. Ile was unwilling to draw before the House any contrast be tween the manufacturers and agriculturists, and the burdens borne by each, because he did not stand up for the Corn-laws on the ground that the land was solely interested in the ques tion, but because he maintained that renters were deeply inte rested on if.—( Hear, bear.) The Hon. Gentleman put out of his view the price of the cultivation of land in foreign coml. tries ; but a main consideration in the question was the price of labourers production would n e c o ti u n a o t , ri vn e s o , a t n e d f e w m h p e i t o h y e m r e a n t m i f u t l h t l e t u c d o e r n o - f laws were abolished. That is the consideration which regulated the Corn-laws for the last 150 years. Hon. „Gentlemen were mistaken in supposing that the Corn-laws gave the agricultu rists particular gains. It is not the object of the Corn-law to do that, but its object is, to prohibit foreign importa tion when the home supply was sufficient. That was its object for the, last 150 years. In the year 1791 when the price was 51s. the dnty was very large, but when it was 535. the duty was only 2s. 6d. If Hon. Gentleman only looked at the law, they would find its character was to regulate the importation according to the home supply, and not to give agriculturists any particular favour. In the year 1815 a material change took place. and it was enacted that when the price of corn was nnder 80s. foreign corn was prohibited, but when it was 80s. unlimited importation was permitted. He hoped the bonding system would never be departed from. It was one which required a gradual scale of duties to bring the corn gradually and smoothly into the market, and prevent a supply from overstocking the market. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet, in the measure which he had introduced, had endeavoured to hold the scales as evenly as possible between the whole of the interests of the country. However Hon. Gentlemen opposite might endeavour to retard the progress of the Bill he believed that people out of the House were con vinced that the present system was the one most likely to hold out a fair prospect of a regular and steady supply of corn. The whole trade in corn was suspended on account of the delay given to the Bill now before the House: so he had learnt that day from a gentleman from Mark-lane, and he was sure no I greater injury could be done to our poor agricultural and manufacturing friends, for whom he was equally interested, that by de aying that measure.----( Hear, hear.) Mr. GIBSON did not agree with the Hon. Gentleman who last spoke, that we already had had'discussion enough. He (Mr. G.) thought we had not yet had half enough of discussion on the burdens on land.—(Cheers,) We have had, indeed, a great deal about the sliding scale, and the fixed duty, and the various concerns of the landed interest, but on no one occasion yet had we had a solemn and grave discus sion as to the peculiar buydens on land.—( Cheers) The Hon. and Gallant Colonel surprised him by referring to the poor rates so far back as the year 1826, to shew the heavy burdens on land. Why did not he refer to a later period ?—(Hear, hear.) The rates were certainly heavy at a former period, especially in the agricultural districts, because the wages of labourers were paid out of the poor-rates—(Hear, hear) — and thus the traders and the occupiers of land were taxed to pay the farmer's labourers.—( Hear, hear.) The Corn-law question was fairly before the House, and the country was much indebted to his Hon. Friend, the Member for Sheffield, for the able statements he had made.—( Hear, hear.) They now asked what was the reason that restraints should be put on the Corn-law tra le ?—( Hear, hear.) The onus of proving the receipts of these burdens, lies upon the Legislature—it was with them to show that there were peculiar advantages which counterbalance those burdens. The manufacturers contend that they had as good a right to produce corn and other articles with their looms, by inter changing their produce with foreign markets, as the agriculturists had to produce their corn. The manufacturers say they have as good a right to get a price for their goods as the agriculturists have to bring the produce of their fields to market. When the Legislature imposed burdens upon them, they were asked to show why they restrained them by sliding scales and other measures of that sort. The Hon. Member for Sheffield was right in saying that the peculiar burdens upon land in England constitute the grounds upon which these bur dens could be imposed. The head of her Majesty's Government talked of the necessity of being independent of foreign countries for the supply of corn—it was clear his own proposition could not be maintained by the reasons he had urged. In order to keep England independent of foreign countries, as the popula tion of England increased, so ought the protection to increase : the greater the number of the people, the stroger should be the forcing power. If it was otherwise,_ you must inevitably fall into the condition which the Right Hon. Baronet professed his anxiety to avoid,viz., into a total dependence upon foreign supplies of corn. The Right Hon. Baronet could not have any con fidence in his own measure. He (Mr. Gibson) did not wish to use improper terms, but he should say he could not believe that the Right Hon. Baronet had any confidence in his own measure—it looked as if the Right Hon. Baronet was merely pandering to the prejudices of the people.—( Hear, he ar .) The question before - the House relatritt, as the Hon. Member for Sheffield had stated, to the peculiar burdens upon land in this country, and not to the burdens borne by other countries ; because, if the House were to consider the duties imposed upon land in , other countries, they should have a different Corn-law and scale of duty for each of those different countries. Their only desire was that the pressure of taxation should be distributed with justice ; if it were not so they were bound to explain the reason of it, and if possible to dis tribute it 'equally. They had the power of doing so ; it was Lbsurd to say that they had not ; and of all means of making compensation, the most absurd was the grant ing protection, as it was called, because the commu nity was called upon to pay to an almost unlimited extent by • such means. The Hon. Member for Sheffield was right in asserting, that the peculiar burdens borne by the landed inte rest, was the only ground upon which they could ask for pro. tection. It was very well to talk, at Agricultural Associations, of agriculture being the great cause of national prosperity—it was very well to tell the farmers that ; but it would not do in that House, or among sensible men. It was idle to suppose that the safety and prosperity of this great empire, with our colonial possessions, depended upon keeping a few acres of dry sand, or wet clay, in corn cultivation.—(Cheers.) The pe culiar burdens upon land, were the only grounds upon which this protection could be justified ; and if they refused this Committee, there would be good ground for the suspicion which existed, that they were legislating for their own pecuniary interests. Every one knew that, by .increas ing the price of food, they increased their own incomes. 'at the expense of the community—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet had admitted, by his constantly maintaining that all the distress was not attributable to the Corn-laws, that a small portion ef it was so. Now what right had he by his laws to inflict even a little distress upon his country men ? If they refused this Committee, they would justify the suspicions entsrtained of the motives. They had resisted the importation of corn from Canada—they had resisted the im portation of corn from Ireland • nay, at one time the land owners in the neighbourhood of the metropolis had resisted the formation of turnpike roads, because the opening a communi cation with the country would, by inducing competition, act unfavourably on their pecuniary interests. Seeing these things the people would be justified in suspecting that they were actu ated by the same motives at the present time, if they refused the Committee. He would say that this corn question was exciting a feeling among the thinking portion of the commu nity which had never been known in termer times. Hon. Gentlemen mistook the matter if they thought there was not an earnest desire to have the Corn-laws repealed. People were beginning to feel, and to express the feeling, that you have a desire to degrade and depress the commercial and manufacturing in terest, people begin to think, and they have reson for thinking. that you wish to uphold agriculture by keeping down trade —that you want to elevate one particular class by depressing another. He would ask, if that was the feeling, whether it was not calculated to arouse the bitterest animosity between different classes in this country ? Was it fair or reasonable that they should always be seeking to secure power and position to a particular class by means of legislation, instead of endeavour ing to promote the general good, in which all should partici eate ? It was the feeling of this country that they were legis lating with a view to maintain one class in a particular position in the social scale by depressing the manufacturing inte rest. Ile knew that many manufacturers had upheld the agricultural interest, but he could tell them that. this servile opinion was passing away and giving place to loftier views of what was due to the claims of industry and enterprise, and they would not be satisfied till they were placed on a full, fair, and equal faoting with other classes of the country, however high their rank, however elevated their station, or however ancient might be their claims..---( Cheers.) Mr. DARBY said he was not sorry. the House had been counted out on the night the Hon. Gentleman had fixed for his motion, as it had obliged him to develop° his views more fully. If it was the object of the Hon. Gentleman to prove that, if there were no particular burdens on land. there ought to be no Corn-laws, he thought lie had mistaken the result of the Corn-laws in the Corn-laws theinselves. But a small portions of corn could be imported.at a time, a.uti if they threw the corn laud of the country out of cnitivation, by reducing the price below that at which it could be grown, they would soom come to famine prices.—( Hear, hear.) The object of the law was to keep corn at a moderate price, which would en courage its cultivation on our own soil. The authority of the Import Committee had been referred to, but he would tell Hon. Gentlemen opposite that that Committee was of no au thority whatever. It had exceeded its powers. Why, the ' other day, Lord Melbourne' himself declared that the report had brought to his mind nothing new, and had not influ-. enced any one of his opinions. Indeed the Noble Lord, the head of the late Government, said he waa.indignant at its being supposed that the report. had caused any one of his opinions to be changed. If the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) had his Committee, it should not be so narrow. The inquiry , should be made a good deal wider.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gen tleman said that the malt duty was paid by the 'consumer ' and was, therefore, ne burden on the land. But did not the Hun. Gentleman know hew much loss it entailed on the farmer, or how often they went to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ask leave to steep the barley to give to their cattle and it was pe remptorily refused,? Did not the Hon. Gentleman think that the tobacco tax affected the farmers, when he knew that tobacco was cultivated for a time in Ireland at a great profit, and was sup pressed because it interfered with the revenue.—( Hear, hear. ) But the object of the law was not to protect the farmers, or compensate them for their burcens, but to secure a constant supply of corn at a reasonable price ; and if the law was done away with, then the price of corn would be raised to a famine price.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Jacob himself said, that if one tenth of the corn lard of this country were thrown out of cul tivation,_ the deficiency could not b e ma d e u p f rom a ll E urape. Dr. BOWRING thought that the Hun. Gentleman who had just sat down had a right to complain that they were not al lowed tp pultiyate tobacco and beet-root, if they did not want to be protected lay a high duty on foreign produce of the same ki n d. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the Report of the Import Duties C by th o o mm ßi i g tt h e t e. Ho A n. g p r l e tr a o t u t e r t ib ( u s te ir had b ri e e e e n o iri w a h to o t hi tl i d t 4.701;71:d i r s recommendations with respect to 750 articles. —( Hear, hear,) If this inquiry were gone into, Hon. Mem bers would find that there was no ground for alarm, on account of an alteration in the Corn-laws. It was an undoubted fact, that in almost every other country but this, land was the great source of revenue. Mr. : 1 1; i C o u i l ie l i oc h h el estimated ha tb n a d t , tl i i t e a l p an p i e l a t r a ed x in France rtahnecetawxascael called l o t to -one-fifth or one-sixth of the whole reve nue. From returns Infpgf.PPlFiert Rnd Oalf sterling, and the taxes of registration to seven millionssterling. The land tai in France amouutod.to fourteen milliens of the whole reve nue, The land in this eountry was more productive than the land i n any other country, and could bear greater burdens in consequence. But if land here was taxed at tbe same rate as in other countries it should have to pay at least 00,00,000/. In Switzerland they were taxed at one half of the exoe,ises of the State. In Egypt the tax upon land fluctuated at ft om Bto 14 per cent. upon the value of the land. So GI., thttre fore, from land being subject in this country to any peculiar hardship, all the evidence went to show that the history of the leg islation of this country was a history of exemption from burdens.--( Hear.) It was but natural that the landed proprietors in thiti country should have turned the power they possessed to their own benefit. He could hardly blame them for it—it was the course of human nature. All that was now asked was an inquiry into the burdens which pressed in this country upon agriculture, and to which such constant reference had of late been made.. Mr. SCARLETT was much surprised at the motion of the lion. Gentleman opposite, which he must oppose, because he did believe that the land was subject to peculiar burdens, though the subject was an obscure one. It is the opinion of the French economists that the land ultimately paid all the taxes. The landlord being the largest proprietor was the greatest consumer of luxuries, and conse quently the taxes on luxuries fell on him; and this view was not the result of his own genius, but was derived from Adam Smith's chapter 't On Revenue." —(Laughter.) If the House went into Committee it would appear that. the landowners bore all the burdens of the State.—( Laughter.) As the price of corn regulated the price of all other commodities, if they re. duced the price of it by one-tenth, they would reduce the income of the country by one -tenth. Mr. CHILDERS-- here was ' a great distinction, of which they should not lose sight, between land and agriculture. It would be seen that every country in the world had borne burdens on land heavier than England had done. We raised an immense revenue, it was true, but the land paid comparatively a Very small portion of it. He could nut discover anything but the land-tax, which fell exclusively on the land, and that amounted to but 1,400,00 W., or ab mit one-fortieth of the whole revenue of the nation, while he believed-the burdens on land were not greater than in other countries. In Holland it was not thought necessary to have protective duties on the importation of corn on ac count of the peculiar taxes on the land, and yet, though the importation into Rotterdam and Ostend was nearly free, the price was generally from 50s. to 555. They must distinguish between what were burdens on land and what were taxes on agriculture. Thus tithes levied in kind he believed to be a tax on agriculture. Under the old Poor-law, also, the system of labour rates, and of roundsmen, was a burden upon the farmer, but, by the Tithe Commutation Act, and by the New Poor-law Act, those burdens had been removed. The burden that at present pressed the most severely on the farmer was, in his (Mr. Childers) opinion, the Corn-law itself. The Corn-law inflicted the greatest injury on the agricultu rist, for, by holding out to him the t em pt a ti on o f an increased price, it induced him to crop his land improperly. If the Corn-laws were abolished, be doubted not but that agriculture in England would soon be equal to what it was in Scotland ; and that the farmers, by adopting improved systems, would soon be able to defy foreign competition. —(Cheers. ) Mr. G. PALMER would not accuse the manufacturing interest of being actuated by any desire ti injure the agricul tural interest; but, on the other hand, he could not admit that the landed proprietors had any wish to starve the monufac turers. The two interests were mutually dependent upon each other, and whatever injured the one must eventually in jure the other. The manufacturer was merely a bird of pas sage—was here to-day and may be in Belgium to-morrow. Ile should not be very far from the truth if he was to say that some manufacturers had embarked their capital in Belgium. He did not mean to say that they had no right to do so. They had a perfect right if the country permitted it. He would appeal to the manutacturera on the other side of the House, if a bale of cotton could not be purchased in Liverpool on a Monday morn ing and sent to Manchester, brought .baCk to Liverpool, and shipped on the Saturday night? Could the agriculturist plough his land, and sow his corn, and reap it in that time ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton) had stated that the manufacturer used to.get Is. 9d. in the pound of cotton after all the expenses were paid, and that now he could not expect to get more than 61d. Now he (Mr. Palmer) would like to know what he would say to the agticulturalits if he expected even a profit of 61d. upon 5%d., the price of a pound of cotton. Cotton — was purchased by the manu nufacturer at_ sd. a pound, and if he got 6%d. upon that he had no reason to complain. But there were other advantages. Now he (Mr. Palmer) would like to know how many times in a year of full employ the manufacturer turned his capital, He should say from seven to eight times a year, and oftener if there was a demand for goods. he did not merely turn his capital, but he worked by means of bills, a system carried on for the last twenty years by which, in the course of a wee k or t en days after - his original purchase, he could go again into the mar ket, and purchase a fresh supply of cotton. Could the agricul turist do this? He (Mr. Palmer) would like to know how he could manage to work up his capitalmore than once a year, and that a real and not a fictitious one. if he got twenty or thirty per cent., he thought himself well off. The manufacturers of this country were like a great snowball placed in the middle of a large common. It was not with a view to promote individual interest, but it was from a conviction that the whole interest of the country, the existence of the security of the country, of pro . perty and credit, every thing depended on the produce of the soil; in fact, it was that which Almighty God had given to us to support life, and this was the real and only capits.l they had to look up to. He sincerely wished that, before this great measure had been proposed, there had been a committee appointed to inquire into not only what burdens were on one interest or the other, but what burdens were existing which required protection against foreign capital. Not that he would withhold the hand of good fellowship from his neighbor". Far from it, he would encourage foreign trade, but he would never sacrifice home property to any foreign trade whatever. If they were but true to themselves, no power on earth could injure them. What was the case of the administration of Mr. Pitt ? Did he not raise the interest of millions of the country. Did the country not thrive under it —was not every individual at the end of the war in a state of prosperity ? The Right Hon. Baronet would find in levying his tax that therels a great faling off in the wealth of the inhabitants. But he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would succeed in his measure. He (Mr. Palmer) had not the slightest objection to the tax, and it would have his hearty support,lbut he would not attempt to dress his fish before ho caught it. Sir ti. PEEL said he wished to call the attention of the House badly to the time at which, and the circumstances under which, the motion of the Hon. Gentleman was made, he believed upon the fourteenth time that he had occupied this House—( Loud cheers)—in the discussion of the Corn-laws.— (Hear, hear.) And as yet they were not allowed to go into Committee upon it. Some Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House who differed from the Bill, who objected to the principles and details of the Bill, yet who seeing the large majority by which that Bill had been carried—considering to e sense of the House hat been fully and fairly expressed—con sidering that the trade of this country, and especially the trade in corn —( Hear, hear)—was so embe-rassed on account of the delay—seeing that that Bill was admitted to be a great improve ment on the present law—(Cheers)—by many opposed to it— seeing that they admitted that it was a mitigation of the exist ing evils, arising from the present state of the law, have come to the conclusion, perfectly justifiable in my opinion, that the the sooner the question was settled the better.—(" Hear, hear," and Cheers.) The question, in his opinion, for them to consider was whether or not there was a prospect of over ruling the sense of a majority of that House. If there was not, then they ought not further to protre et discussion. Many Hon. Gentlemen having had the whole of last Session to con sider the propriety of this motion —knowing that the Corn laws were under discussion—foreseeing that they would be un der discussion, had full opportunity of appointing a Committee in the last Session. But the Hon. Gentleman permitted them to have thirteen nights of debate, one on the motion for the Bill, three on the motion of the Noble Lord for a fixed duty instead of a graduated scale, five nights debate on a subject identical with it, viz. an absolute repeal, four other nights since that, making altogether thirteen nights ; and on the fourteenth the Hon. Gentleman proposed that the whole of the C o rn-law Bill should be suspended until a C ommittee shall have made its report. Now what he (Sir R. Peel) called upon the Hon- Gentleman to do was in fairness to adhere to his own notice. The object of this notice was not to mislead.—( Loud cheers and laughter.) If the object of it was to instruct the House . ..and inform them what was the nature of the mot i on which ought to be brought forward the Hon. Gentleman would not have had occasion to ransack musty speeches or looking for old debates in 1834, but, after thirteen nights of debate, when the country was expecting the House would, at last, de- tide what was to be the law regulating the importation of corn, the Hon. Gentleman came down and occupied their time; not but resuscitating old s w p i e t reference k t t o t h e t h D e e uze i s toi f eekbiantgeh, am had said, and what he (Sir R. Peel) had said in 1834, and to satisfy the impatience of the country by reference to the proceedings of six or seven years ago. But he (Sir R. Peel) asked the Hon. Gentleman who had given so much time and attention, at lest to make up his mind what his motion would be.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) lie (Sir R. Peel) came down that night, presuming that the Hon. Gentleman would have given so much attention to the subject that he would have, at least, adhered to the notice he had given--a perfectly legitimate notice, which ran thus:— "On the motion that the Speaker do leave Chair, to go into Committee on Corn Importation Bill, to move that it is inexpedient to impose any duty upon the importation of foreign corn, until the House shall have inquired whether there are any special burdens peculiarly affecting the landed interest of this country, or any special exemption enjoyed-by that interest, and ehail have ascertained their nature and ex tent." He (Sir R.. Peel) asked the Hon. Gentleman to stand by his own notice. He asked the Hon. Gentleman to ask for leave to withdraw the motion, rid adhere to his own notice.— ( Hear, hear.) Let him (Sir It. Peel) fairly understand whe ther the House was then to pass that Corn-law Bill, and pro ceed to its completion by that House , or whether o r no it should be postponed ind e finit e ly, unt il the Hon. Gentleman had formed his Committee. He (Sir R. Peel) asked the Noble Lord (Lord J. Bessell) who •sat smear the lion. Gentleman, whether it was not consistent with the usage of Parliament, that he (Sir R. Peel) should ask for the notice being adhered to? When a notice was brought forward by the lion. Gentle man for a Committee, it was competent to him to renew that notice, but the Hon. Gentleman had expressly joined issue with him (Sir R. Peel) as to whether they should go into Com mittee, or whether he should—perfectly fairly and legiti mately, he admitted—take the tense of the House be appointed to in. n forward that mo -0(11: t r h e, s v e o s w t n t s h i s a t t e a n t C ly o a m n m d i f t a t i e r e l y s h t o ou b l d r n g tion, he had ample time, considering the discussion; but it note he ( s h ir a d ßo h b i Robert Peel) if won't( not given notice. consent to the supension of the Corn - law Bill, un til suc h a was perfectly unusual for an Hon. Gentleman t o g i ve not i ce, and not to say one single word to those opposed t o hi m o f hi s intention to change that notice, . and to make a w h o l e speec h , and then at the close of it to bring about a motio n b y with drawing Whether Committee should have been app oi n ted, and made it s repor t. Putting that Report altogether out of co nsideration wh e th er o r not it 'was fit to suspend that bill, they m i g h t depend they this tha t was motion fitt in g o f o r which h would not carry public feeling with them. They knew in the last Session that-he (Sir R. Peel) never attacked the Noble Lord with what amount of burdens there were; but what he said was, that the Noble Lord would labour under great difficulty when he proposed his Bs. daty to cover the burden on land. He (Sir R. Peel) said that the objection would equally apply to any protection, for, if they were called upon to shoW the burthens, the objection wouid apply to a fixed duty. He dSir R. Peel) rested his proposition upon a combination of interest. He stated, in the first place, th a t in consideration of that pro tection, they must look to the 150 years that capital had been invested under a system of protection to agricultural produce. He (Sir R. Peel) stated, that nothing could be more unwise than to risk disturbing new interest by withdrawing that pro tection rapidly, without full consideration, and under which capital had been applied to the cultivation of land. He ( Sir R. Peel) stated, that any person was perfectly right to differ from him. He stated, as another reason, it gave protection whets it was necessary to the cultivation of the soil, and the growth of domestic produce, and to prevent dependence upon foreign countries lie (Sir R. Peel) stated, that it was neces sary that protection should exist as an insurance against any possible calamity. He (Sir Robert Peel) had stated, . that there were especially peculiar burdens affecting land, as co mpared to ether great interest. The lion. Gentleman ridiculed the notion of tithes being a burden. He wondered how any one could be absurd enough to suppose that tithes were a burden on l an d . The Hon. Gentleman was a great authnritys but there were others equal to him, who entertained a different opinion. They wrote at a liras comparatively barbarous.—( Laughter and cheers.) He would mention Adam Smith. What Adam Smith said was, that taxes upon the produce of land were really taxes upon rent, that they were paid by the landlord, and were considered as a land tax. The Right Honourable Baronet then read an extract from Adam Smith, Which stated that the - is tithes fell upen the landlord idconntries where there was an Es tablished Church, and was a great discouragement to agricul ture. But the Hon. Gentleman would say there had been considerable alteration in the tithes as they were commuted. The Right Hon. liaronet then read an extract from Mr. lii cardo, which stated the opinion of the writer, that the tithes were a great, burden on the land, and justified a duty of ten This was the opinion of Mr. Ricardo. He might be entirely wrong, and the Hon. Gentleman right, but they differed from the Hon. Gentleman. He ( Sir R. Peel) would say, en the part of the landed interest, that there was no pressure upon him to resist that inquiry, as the result would be unfa vourable. But he could assure the Hnn. Gentleman, that if that inquiry took place it would occupy rather more than ten days. The authority of the Hon. Gentleman was great ; bur without disrespect to the lion. Gentleman, there were others equally great.—(Laughter.) To what extent the burdens imposed upon land must be determined rather be general rea soning, than taking the entire c h arge. Another burden the Hon. Gentleman had referred to was the poor-rate, and he stated that this burden fell equally upon the tradesman and landlord, but the lion. Gentlemon must remember that the recent alteration took those rates from the trades men, and they were entirely on the land. —( Hear. ) Of late years, however, there had been a more equal and just apportionment, but if lie looked to the amount of poor -rates he must say that a very large proportion of the amount was levied upon land. When he looked to the returns he found that in 1826 the proportion of rates upon lands, houses, and other species of property was, 4,523,000/. upon land; 1,788,0001. upon dwelling.houses ; and 255,000/. upon mills, factories, and other species of property of that sort. He did not quote those returns: as an accurate statement of the relative burdens upon the different species of property to which he referred. Then again there was the malt-tax—that was levied from barley aloae, the produce of the land, not less than 10,000,0001 antually. If soca a sum was levied from one article, it was very difficult to say what amount of restriction there was upon land, for if a restrictive duty was imposed upon the produce of the land, it was just as great a restriction as if it was placed upon the land itself; and after all the lengthened and various discussions of that Committee it would remain excessive. These were the general impressions which induced him (Sir R. Peel) to submit to the House that the present practical question was, whether he should postpone the Corn.law Bill indefinitely. The expression made use of by the Hon. Member (Mr. Ward) who brought forward the motion, that it might be a very " tedious business"—( Cries of " Hear, hear")—so lit might he a very " tedious business" if the lion. Gentleman's motion was adopted, but he (Sir R. Peel) would ask the House to consider what the country would think of him, if he said that he would acquiesce in a motion which would postpone the measure which he had submitted to the House, merely because a very plausible argument was urged in its favour by the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(Cheers, and ironical cheers from the Opposition.) Would it be said that he should postpone the Corn-law Bill—leave the interests of larullords and of tenants, and of men who derive income from corn—in a state of uncertainty, until the Ho nourable Gentleman opposite should, in three sessions hence, have his motion brought to a determination. For these reasons, he (Sir Robert Peel) should give his most decided opposition to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.—( Hear.) ' Mr. STRUTT said there was a great deal of inconsistency in the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet. The question was not whether tithe was a burden on land, but whether it was a burthen on landholders.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet must have weedy changed his opinions within the last one or two ye.rs, for it appears that some time ago he entertained the opinion that those rates were not a charge upon land. On the 24th of July, 1840, the Right Hon. Ba ronet delivered a speech in which he stated that it was exceed. ingly unjust that Dissenters should be expected to pay church rates, and why he should now turn round and say that landlords ought to receive compensation for the burthens imposed upon them, by taxing other persons for them, was most inconsistent. From alt that was said upon the subject this evening it was most satisfactorily proved to the House, that hitherto there had been no sufficient reasons shown to justify the exemption of landowners and the imposition of burdens upon other classes of the people of the country. The burthens in respect to poor-rates were increased generally in proportion with the increase of population, and it seemed to him (Mr. Strutt) most unjust that the landlords should now have any claim upon Parliament for redress, upon the grounds that there were great burdens upon land. The burdens to which land was now subject hail been imposed for many successive centuries. It could be shown that all the old feudal burdens had been com mitted for a specific tax. So that even taking an antiquarian view of the matter (which, however, he did not then mean to take), and even in the whole course of the debates of that House he had never heard any which appeared to him to have been so very decidedly on one side of the question, and that upon his (the Opposition) side, as the debate of that night— ( Laughter and ironical cheers)—he was quite sure, at all events, that a case had been made for inquiry, although he felt it was not easy to satisfy Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) It was objected that his Hon. Friend's motion was too minute. Now, ho ap pealed to the House, whether, if it was shaped in a different way, in order to meet that objection, it would not be said the terms of it were so vague and uncertain that it could never be brought to a conclusion. The Right Hon. Baronet had said something like that even as the motion stood at present. On the whole he would give his most hearty and cordial support to the motion of his Hon. Friend. Mr. COBDeN begged — leaye to remind the Hon. Baronet that immediately after the Queen's Speech had been delivered, he had taken the earliest opportunity to ask the Right Hon. Baronet to state to the House what the special burdens were to which her Majesty's Speech referred—the answer given by the Right Hon. Baronet was, that the proper time to answer that inquiry w as i n hi s speech in the debate ; the Right Hon. Baronet delivered his speech and did not define what those burdens were—he was then again asked to state what they were, and he declined to do so. Then the Hon. Member for Sheffield brought forward his motion, and instead of being censured by the opposite party for doing so, as he had been, the Hen. tientlernan ought to have their thanks for giving them an opportunity of answering these inquiries which it is reasonably expected they should answer. The Hon. Member (Mr. Ward) gave notiee of his motion for Thursday last, on that day there were 30 or 40 Gentlemen on this (the Oppo sition) side of the House, but the benches opposite were vacant—the Members on that side of the House were whipped away—(Laughter)—because he (Mr. Cobden) heard when he came down to the House at four o'clock, that it was determined the motion of his Hon. Friend was (in vulgar parlance) to be "bucked "—he had observed that Hon. Gentlemen who were constantly at their devotions in that House—(Laughter ) —were on that occasion absent—even the Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford, was nit at prayers on that evening.— ( Question, question)—and now that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) had brought his motion forward to-night, and though there was a House, it seemed they were not to have a discus sion ; there was some reason or other why the Right Hon: Baronet would not entertain the question—some said it ought to have been introduced long ago, but he (Mr. Cobden) ap pealed to the Right Hon. Baronet and the country whether, after what had taken place, it should be said that the peoplo were anxious for the passing of the Corn-law Bill. As- far as his constituents were concerned, he could say they were most opposed to it. He had then a resolution which was unanimously agreed to at a public meeting held at Stockport the other day, in the open air, with the Mayor in the chair—( A laugh)— calling upon him to give his most decided opposition to the measure.—(Hear, Hear.) He would tell the Right Hon. Baronet and Honourable Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, that he had come there to represent the wishes and interests of his constituents, and that he did not mean to bow to the behests of the majority which the Right lion. Baronet might command.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir Robert Peel.) The principal object to-night was to show that there were no special be-dens upon land, but it could be shoe a that they (the landed proprietors) were exempted from taxes, and that they were to be exclusively borne by other classes. He could state the opinion of Frenchmen and others for that.—(" Oh, oh," and " Question, question.") He had heard how Learned Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House read similar opinions.—( Hear, hear.) The taxes to which land was now subject have been borne by it for a thousand years. Ile would state what the taxes were 150 years after the Conquest, when the whole of the taxes were derived from land. '1 he Hon. Gentleman then went on to show that for a series of years the proportionate amount of taxes was three fourths of the entire of the revenues of the land—down to the reign of Anne, one-fourth—to the reign of George 1., one-- fifth—George 11., one-sixth—for thirty years of the reign of George 111., one-seventh—from 1793 down to 1816, one-ninth —and from that time down to the present, one twenty-fith of tho whole revenue was derived from the lai.d.—(Hear, hear. ) Then there is the land tax which had its origin in the feudal services—the landowners were exempted, and then the tax of 4s. was put on instead—the tax levied first was 4s. in the pound of the full year's value—it was regularly valued and the Lax paid upon that valuation, but it was never re-valued since 1692 ; that was not the system allowed in the valuation of taxes—the taxes paid on windows for instance would not be according to the valuation of 20 years ago. The land pro prietors had been exempted from their services by the bargain made by them with the Sovereign to give up their feudal 'services for that tax, but they retained their own minor services, which as Lingard said, was a dishonour to the country. The lyre lularities of taxation were arguments against its jus tice.—( Hear.) No taxation ought to be levied unjustly ; and if the pressure were unequal, it was a proof that the tax ought either to be abolished or reassessed. The Hon. Gentleman then showed that in several of the counties of England, taking the land tax of 1815, as a guide of taxation, was most unequal. The highest tax was levied in Bedfordshire, when it was Is. 841. and the lowest was levied in Cumberland, when it was only IlAd. The parishes showed the same inequality of taxation. In some it was Is. 6d. and in others it did not amount to more than the one-tenth of a penny.—( Hear, hear.) What was the reason of that? It was because some counties and towns had become rich and populous ; but he would ask, was that a reason why the others should be exempt from their fair amauut of taxation ? What said Adam Smith on the subject ? He said that " the subjects of every state should support the government as nearly as possible, but the land tax was a violation of that just principle" and Mr. John Wood, Chairman of the Board of Stamps, in his evidence before a committee of the House of Commons, in April, 1836, stated the collection of the tax as three or four times as much as the sum raised and paid into the Exchequer.—(" Divide.") Whatever degree of attention may be paid to the subject in that House, it would be well discussed out of it. They were on the eve of new taxation, and the budget of the other evening would call the middle classes to a proper sense of their political duty, though it had no other good effect. They would have fiscal discussions amongst the class of shopkeepers. And when they discovered that the profits of stock were to be assessed, and that the inquisitors were to be sent into their houses, they would be inclined to inquire into the progress of the rentals of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Hon. Gentlemen were scarcely aware of the powers of the Reform Bill.—( Hear, hear.) They scarcely knew the powers given by that Bill to the middle classes, because they were never called on to try them ; but now that their pockets are touched he believed they would exhibit sufficient spirit to resist those who upheld unjust mono poly.—( Hear, hear.) If the Right Hon. Baronet had come down and proposed a preperty tax to relieve the people, he (Mr. Cobden) would join him to the utmost extent— (Hear, hear)—but, when finding the means of the work ing classes were exhausted, and that they could not bear any more taxation, the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to apply the screw to the middle classes, he believed that those ciasses would look narrowly into the monopoly of bread, and the kindred monopoly of sugar.—( Hear.) They would demand of the Right Hon. Baronet the means of increasing trade, if he meant to get additional taxation. — ( Hear .) He never heard anything better said of the modification of the Right Hon. Gentleman that it was not quite se bad as the present system.—(Question, question.) He thought the mode in which Hon. Gentlemen opposite advocated that law was suspicious, because if the Corn-law was to be repealed, its repeal ought to be advocated by his (Mr. Cob den's) side of the House, and not by the Gentlemen opposite. There was nothing in the law whirls would reconcile the country to it. So fe- as lie was acquainted with the feelings of the manufacturing classes, they did not regard the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman as one that would restore them to prosperity, and until he put corn into the hands of persons generally, and not confined it to a few, he would not reconcile the feelings of the people to it, or render the country contented.--(Cheers.) Lord WORSLEY said that having opposed any alteration of the Corn-laws, he felt it to be his duty to vote against the motion of his Hon. Friend. _(Hear, hear ) If burdens did press peculiarly on any class, he thought it would be only fair that means might be taken to adjust the taxation more evenly throughout the country, But it appeared to him that the object of the motion was to obstruct the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet ; and, hay- Sunderland contended that no measure should be brought far ing alre a dy obtained a majority, he could not vote fur the ward, which would have the effect of interrupting the progress of motion of his Hon. Friend. if his Hon. Friend showed that Government measures. That proposition was reasonable ; but the land did n o t b ear p ecu li ar b ur d ens , h e w ou ld a , k, as a ne- then, on th e ot h er hand, he thought the Government ought to cessary consequence, fur an alteration of the Corn laws. And give every facility on motion night for making a House; and ou that ground also he would not support th e motion. If the not to take advantage of a whipping oat to resist the motion motion was to make the taxation morecqual, he, connected as he ( Bear, hear.) What did Mr. Canning say on that subject ? was with an agr i cu lt ura l county, cou ld riot o bj ect to i t —( Hear, Mr. Canning sai.', he cons id ere d that the most important hear )—hut, as he opposed the motion of the Hon. Member duties of a certain class of gentlemen connected with the Go for Wolverhampton, so on the same grounds would he oppose I vernment, such as Lords of the Treasury, under Secretaries of the motion of his Hon. Friend.—(Cheers.) State, Clerks of the Board of Control, and gentlemen of that Mr. VILLIERS did not think his lion. Friend brought for • genius—(Great laughter )—he eonsidered that their duties ward his motion with any other view than the one he pro.. were divided into three classes ; their first duty was, to make a lesser'. He believed the object was to inquire into the special House; then, second, to keep a House ; and then, third, to burdens on land, but, if those special burdens were proved, it cheer the Minister.—( Great laughter.) It was too delicate a would not, in his opinion, justify the Corn-laws.—( Hear, hear.) subject for the Right Hon. Baronet to mention to those Hon. If such burdens did exist, let them be removed, but let them Gentlemen, and he was sure, therefore, that he would feel very not be made an excuse for the Corn-law.—( Hear.) Ile would much indebted to him (Mr. 'l'. Duncombe) for the. allusion.— not vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend, and, he believed, (Continued laughter.) Be thought they ought to know w h o the discussion on th e su bj ect wou ld b e productive of good, he- was really responsible for making a House, that Hon. Gentle cause, it would open the eyes of the people, and men who gave notice of motions might not be defeated by being the country would sec that these burdens were told, „ 'This is a Government night, and we must, therefore, mere pretexts and excuses. It would he useless to ad- vote against you." He should certainly have voted with the vance anything more than what his Hon. Ft iend had stated on lion. Member for Sheffield last Thursday, and not being like the subject, but the Right Hon. Baronet refused all inquiry. I the Noble Lord (Lord Howick), he would vote for him on that lie (Mr. Villiers) held in his hand the amount of exemption occasion. —( Hear, hear.) which the landed interest obtained since the passing of the Sti angers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House di- Corn-law. These exemptions took place with regard to horses, vided, when there appeared— dogs, carts, &c. In the year 1816 the annual sum of 28,1691. For the motion ... .. ......... ... 115 was given up ;in 1819, 38,608/. ; in 1822, for husbandry Against it horses alone, 47,1081. ; in 1823, 52,7921. ; in 1824, 6,776 ; in Majority against the motion —ll5 1825, 49,5591.; in 1832, 87,1001. :in 1833, 10,1101. ;in 1834, The House then went into Comittee on the Bill, Mr. Guireste 52,000/. ; in 1835,501.00/. ; in 1836, 60,000 ; making alto- in the Chair. gether a sum of 985,824/, within a few pounds of one million The first clause was agreed to without discussion. tie had also got the amount of agricultural stock insured at the On the second clause being proposed, different insurance offices. It amounted to 51,997.751/., and Mr. VA LENTINE BLAKE, pursuant to notice, rese to not a si ng l e s hilli ng d uty was paid.—( H ear , he a r.) The amount move , tin consideration of the increasing an unexampled depres• of duty on all other property was 995,7101. The Poor-law rate sion of trade, and the destitution consequent thereon, which was said to be a pecul ar b ur d en on l an d, an d was much dwelt now unhappily prevails throughout the entire of on by Hon. Gentlemen ; but to give the country an idea of the t h e manufacturing districts. the insertion of a justice o f the dernand for comnsation on that head, he c l ause to suspend the payment of all the specified would select th e par i s h of Marylebone, t o s h ow th a t th e ra t e duties till from and after the Ist day of April, 1843." varied according to the pri ce o f wheat. In the year 1 83 2 , the The Hon. Baronet went on to say that when he coggidered price of wheat was 585., a n d th e ra t e i n that parish was 9 7, 6 7 2 /. ; the likelihood of thousands being sac• ificed by the pressure of in 1833, the price of wheat was 325., and the rates fell to the present measure, and that the persons thus exposed to 93,634/. ; in 1834, the price of wheat was 465., the rate suffering had been the foundation of the trade and the pros was correspondingly reduced ;in Me the price was 395., the perity of this country, Parliament ought to pause. He re rate 53,4871. ; in 1837 th e p r i ce was se s ,, the rate 59,8001. ; gretted that the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had lost in 1838 the price was 645., the rate 61,0911. ; in 1829 the the advantage he once possessed of wielding the de s ti n i es o f price was 705., th e ra t e 63 , 22 11. ; in 1840 the price was 695., this empire, and had thrown his power into the hands of the the rate 76,355/.—(Hear.) That was what took place in one Right lion. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, single parish, and what occurred there occurred in other places. who had only to shake his ambrosial curls—(Laughter) —to He might state an a proof of the absurdity of saying that the give the stamp of fate and the sanction of a god to any mea poor-rate was a peculiar burden upon land, that the amount of sure for the oppression of the people. With resp ec t t o po. rate paid in London was greater than th a t p a id i n all Yorkshire. tato-flour, he mieht be permitted to say that the soil of Ire lie thought that the present was a time peculiarly fitted for land was particularly adapted to the growth of potatns, Th e such an inquiry as that proposed by his Hon. Friend the Mem- constant succession of showers and sunshine in that country ber for Wolverhampt on . N ow th a t th e y we r e about to im- favoured in an especial manner the growth of that root in it. pose a new tax upon the nation it became them in every way It was well known in his (Sir V. Blake's) part of the 'country to inquire into the burdens of the people, with a view, if Pos- that when a married pair had no children, the potato_( Th e sible,_to their mitigation. He did not think any decision which rest of the sentence was lost amids the roars of the House had come to on the subject of the Corn-law itself laughter that r. se from all sides of the Muse. ) could equal in injustice a refusal to grant the inquiry now 'There was another burden which had been alighted on in a moved for. former instance, that had been omitted in this. One burden Lord HOWICK said, that before th e House proceeded to a had been discovered in the fact, that the landed gentlemen division upon the motion then u n de r thei r consideration, he formerly had to keep She soldiers' wives.—( Roars of !alighted.. ) Y Were he not afraid of incurring the displeasure of the House, wished to say a few words upon the subject. He entire! agreed with the Hon. Memb er f or Sh e ffi e ld, th a t it was a h e would give them some more particulars connected with the point of very great importance to determine what were the subject on good authority. The Hon. Member then pro exclusive burdens borne by land. He thought that the subject ceeded to give the House a sketch of the natural history of was one of very great importance to the House and the country t h e potato, stating that it was a root which grew wild after so much stress had been laid upon it during the various but was not generally cultivated till —some date in South America, was brought to this country in debates with respect to the Corn-laws. He was also willing 158 8, to admit that it was a ver y f a i r t o pi c f or Parliamentary in- which was lost amid the loud and general cries quiry ; although lie thought there might be some doubt as to of question, which oompelled the Hon. Gentleman to conclude whether a Parliamentary Committee would be a body which with proposing his clause, that Lo duty be paid on mentioncould satisfactorily institute the proposed inquiry. But still tation of corn till after the first of April, 1843. The he was willing to assume that point ; he was willing to suppose of the date produced fresh bursts of laughter, amid which the that a Committee could sift the question, and present a satisfaetorY lion. Member sat down. report to the House with regard to it. But even making these two The motion was negatived without a division. concessions to the Hon. Member f or Sheffield, he confessed he Mr. J. I'ARKER rose to propose a clause which he be nh, lieved would have the effect of correcting ore of the great could not satisfy himself of the propriety of supporting tion.—(Hear, hear. ) He was bound to admit the force of ob jections of the sliding scale. The observations of the Hon. the arguments which the Right Hon. Baronet had urged Member were very indistinctly heard, but he was understood against the time and manner in which the motion was brought to contend that the sliding scale in its present form, ren forward. He thought that not only the Government, but that tiered regular trade with distant ports almost impossible. The trade thus became of a v er y s pe c ul a ti ve c h aracter, an d i t the public had a v er y grea t i n t eres t i n preventing those days set apart for the transaction of public business by the Govern- precluded any trader from carrying on a regular system of ment from being interfered with by the interposition of motions, commerce with those countries. A, clause, of the nature he which, according to the forms of the House, ought to be is. should have the honour to propose, would, he thought, , cussed on those days assigeed for the motions of individual tend to obviate the objection. The clause was, Members.-4 Hear, hear. ) He thought that would be a very al s o, founded on the representation of the Americas great public inconvenience, because it was well known merchants of the Chamber of Commerce of Liverpool, stating that by the practice of that House only two days the advantage of extending the time of taking the averages, in the week were set apart for the transaction of that vast this, it was considered, would tend to increase the trade with amount of public bu s ine s s whi c h it was the duty of her Ma- America. Ile on ly suggeste d hi s mot i on to the House as a je s ty' s Government to bring under their notice. They well proposition ; he was not enamoured of his own clause, knew the extreme difficulty which every Government expo- as h e was aware of the great difficulties connected rienced, whether it were com p ose d o f lion. Gentlemen en with the. subject.—( Ilear. ) The time occupied in that side of the Nouse or the other, in obtaining the ne- rending a vessel to Odessa, freighting her and the voyage back, eessary time for the proper discussion of measures deeply at- was not less than four months, and he could not include Odessa fecti ng th e public interest. They knew perfectly well that by unless he extended the period in his clause to that time. He t hey therefore moved as a clause that it shall be lawful for " any delaying and obstructing the discussion of those motions, necessarily limited the number of useful and important mea- person, on payment of the duty en any quantity oft oreign corn, sores which it was in the power of the Goverment to bring for- or on giving bond for the payment of the same, at the tate of ward. As the Member of a former Administration, he had duty then ruling, or on givieg bond for the payment of such at the rate which shall be ruling on the day of clearing himself less occasion to feel the extreme injustice of having duty complaints made against him through the business they had out such corn from any foreign pint, to enter the aforesaid submitted to the House, and of neglectine many im- quantity of corn, or any part thereof, for home consumption s portant subjects while, at the same time,' the 'days required although not actually in bond, provided it be imported within for the discussion of those subjects were taken from them by the a limited number of slays from the time of such entry." interposition of other motions. He had a very strong opinion Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the Hon. Member had upon that point. It was not for the interest of the public—he stated his clause to be rather obscure, and had just observed said nothing of the interest of Government—that notice that he was not very much enamoured of his own proposition. should he given which would tend to interfere with the re- He apprehended that the purport of the clause was this, that gular progress of Parliamentary business, except i n cases. of supposing the duty on corn was Is., the party importing might, some great and special emergency Now he could not imagine on the payment of that duty on an unlimited number of quarters. that such an emergency existed in the present instance. He enter that quantity for consumption. Thus, find rig the duty really did not understand the ground upon which they were at Is., he might enter that quantity, •by paying twenty thou called on to adopt the motion in the manner in which it had sand shillings, or even without paying it, since he could do it been brought forward. The Hon. Member for Sheffield said by giving his land for the payment, and had four months to do he had given notice of his motion for Thursday last, but on it in. This appeared to him a most extraordinary proposi that day there was no House. Now he (Lord Howick) did not tion.—(Hear, hear.) In the first place, it would have a very think that the Hon. Member could urge that as a ground of mrial effect in discouraging the bonding system.— complaint against the Government. It was a usual practice (Her,a hear, and diners.) There would not be the least with Members upon all sides to absent themselves when notice necessity for bonding corn at all ; there would not was given of any motion they did not like to h ave discussed. ' be any encouragem e nt f or b on di ng corn, even at Rotterdam No doubt there were more than 40 Members who took an interest or Antwerp, as it might be bonded at Odessa. It was not to Y be necessary to pay the duty, it being merely necessary to give in the otion of the Hon. Member for Sheld ; but if the did not come and form a House they had nonc e but themselves a bond for the payment ; this appeared to 'him a most extra to blame.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He agreed with the Hon. ordinary system to Introduce. It seemed to him, that if Member that the subject was one deserving of serious con- frauds could be practised in the averages, this eideration ; but was it, therefore, necessary that they should clause would give fresh inducenagnts to practise immediately and at once accede to his motion?—( Hear. ) them for not only could the party bonding corn, but all specu- He (Lord Hewick) did not think it was. The charge which lators ; who undertook to pay the duty of Is. a quarter, having the lion. Gentleman himself bad introduced into his motion four months to conduct their operations, might infl uence proved, as the Right H on . B arone t h a d j us tly o b serve d, th a t the average prices. But this clause appeared to he had himself abandoned a s un t ena ble th e p os iti on th a t th e be intended to benefit the the Unit e d States art of Od e s sa .— p (Hear, should be hear.) further consideration of th e C orn Bill s h ou ld be a d o pt e d until lie did not see why Od essa and the report of the Committee, for which he moved, had been benefited at the expense of the ports of the Baltic. Of the raseeented to the House. But if the course of legislation upon many propositions proposed by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, one orn-laws, was not to be interrupted by the motion of was that 1,000,000 quarters should be admitted every year free the Hon Gentleman, then it followed that the present was not of duty ; the one now before them was in effect to enable corn one of those cases of emergency, in which it was desirable that speculators to conduct their business at Odessa. lie would Suchard a motion as that of the Hon. Member should be brought beg of those lion. Gentlemen to try and frame a whole Corn forward in this particular shape, preventing the further consi- Ilsil themselves, and then they would ' see how difficult it deration of a measure which the House and the country must was for him to balance all the opposing interests and plows desire to see settled in one way or t h e ot h er.— ( H ear , hear.) concerned in this question. But he was sure the Hon. Gentle- Those were the reasons which would induce him to give man's clause would defeat its object, for it would have the his vote against the motion of the Honourable Member. effect of depressing the market. Ile (Sir R. Peel) must although, if it had been brought forward on Thursday last, it oppose the clause. was his intention to have supported it. He could not, for the Lord HOWICK supported the clause, as tending to tweak l 1 rp ose of acting with those lion. Gentlemen, with whom he d own t h e monopo l y which otherwite the neighbouringisorts purpose acted, lend his sanction to a practice which, upon wou ld h ave . Th e Ri g h t lion. Baronet taunted his Noble Friend, and also the Hon. Memb e r f or Paisley, for ignoranee e agreed public grounds, and with a view to the permanent interests of the country, he considered extremely prejudicial. H , of legislative routine, anti asked them t o f rame a Corn Bill themselves. Now he (Lord tl. ) would sa y, th a t if hi s H on , with the Hon." Gentleman in disapproving of the Corn-law introduced by the Government; and, in desiring to see the F r i en d, th e M em b e r for Sh e ffi e ld, f rame d a B ill, it would be time when sounder and w i se r v i ews wou ld b e genera lly enter- more simple, intelligible, and reasonable than the measure i now before the House..-(Laughter and cheer s .) If t h ere twined upon the subject, he firmly agreed with him in those it was boeau se it was encum views and wishes ; but he firmly believed that the course I were any fault in the clause, which the Hon. Gentleman was now taking was net calculated 1 bered by the faulty principle of the Right Hon. Baronet-. to promote the object he had in view. He did believe that a 'of this kind was calculated to conciliate the opinions of Mr. HASTIE referred to the speech of the Right Hon. motion i (Laughter, and hear, hear. ) dispassionate people out of doors. He did not believe that 1 I Baronet on a former night, and endeavoured to show that the that was the mariner in which they would be most likely to falling off in the American trade, which was only 6 per cent. make a favourable impression upon public opinion, or to ob- on our whole exports, nor the operation of the Joint Stock lain that support from the country at large, by which alone the Banks, whose bills did not exceed 1)60,000/. could have had no cause in producing- the general distress, which the Right Hon, principles of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, and of those who thought with him, could be carried into effect. Baronet had at last admitted. Mr. WAK LEY wished to say a very few words upon the Mr. I'ARKER did not want to persevere in his clause, but remarks which had fallen from the Noble Lord who had just would be happy to yield to a modification of it made by the sat down, and the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Right lion. L'aronet himself. Treasury. He should confess he was not pleased with the Sir 11. PEEL assured the Hon. Gentleman that he (Sir R. doctrine laid down by the Noble Lord, with reference t o mo - Peel) meant nothing in the least degree discourteous or dis t.ions such as that. before the House. lie thought that doctrine respectful in the allusion he had made to them. was pregnant with danger and utterly at variance with the Alp. p. SCROPE proposed a clause to the effect, that C anc onstituient practice T of the Noble s Land with the tha sp t irit of the British fo re i gn corn en t ere d f or consumpt i on from ship be admitted on on. hes he himself had the requost of the importer at the duty ruling on the day tits Y which such ship cleared out from the port whence the corn been a Member of an Administration, and that he had freentl felt the inconvenience of motions like the present ; that be had was exported. felt his progress used to be impeded by them. Now, he (Mr. Sir It. PEEL said that - there was one general, and, in his Wakley) said so much the better.—(Laughter.) He was very mind, conclusive objecti on t o th e propose d c l ause, that it would glad to hear that the Noble Lord's progress had been checked t effect a positive discouragement to the viarehausinstem in and, h g sye believed, it would have been better for the country if it this country. had been more completely checked.—( Renewed cheering . ) Air. HAWES h o p e d th e Ri g h t H on. Baronet would give the He was glad to find that the present motion offered a little of • clause a further consideration. It would have the effect of re. struction to the Right lion. Baronet. It had elicited some medying one of the greatest evils of the sitting scale s useful facts in the course of the discussion that night; and these which was, that it excluded us, in an emergency, from being facts would be spread throughout the country, and would give supplied from distant countries. He would recommend the rise to instructive observation and re fl ect i on . Th e Ri g ht H on . postponement of the clause for the present, that the l' ght Baronet, in the course of the l as t Session, h a d reminded the lion. Baronet might more maturely weigh its probable effects. House of the ancient Whig dootriine,,with reference LO opposi- Mr. S. WORfLEY opposed, and Mr. HOWARD supported Tierney, who said that the amendment. of . Mr. op . pose every . tion ; he quoted the lan g ua ge the duty of an orpos _ thin g And After a few words from Mr. THORNELY, Mr. POULET SCROPE withdrew his amendment, and propose nothing.' —(Laughter. ) Bowick) completely repudiated t :But the Noble Lord Lord( that doctrine; and, according s h„l anse was agreed to. to him, when any Members objected to a measure, they were Claise 3 was agreed to with some verbal amendments. to allow it to pass in silence. That was a doctrine to which he Clause 4 was then agreed to. (Mr. Wakley) could not subscribe. His opinion was, that On clause 5 being proposed, when any Members disapproved of a measure introduced into Mr. LABOUCHERE w i s h e d t o ca ll t h e attention of the that Honse, they ought to offer it a manly, open, and consistent Vice President of the Board of Trade to the clause which was opposition. He should admit, however that the course pur. copied, word for word, from the existing law. On the other sued by the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Sheffield, was an evening the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that a great por- Y tion of the Canadian flour imported into this country was the objectionable one. He should confess that, in his judgment, an motion to he submitted to the House upon a great question, produce of American wheat. lie (Mr. Labouchere) had eon ought to be fairly put upon the papers ; and there ought not sidered that the wording of this clause was sufficient to prevent 1 any such surreptitious introduction, but on inquiry he found to be one motion upon the notice-papers, and another in the that such was The case, and, therefore, he would suggest the Speaker's hands.--( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) i That line of policy did not give a fair ground of contest upon propriety of amending the clause in such a manner as to remedy the main question under discussion. It was not the course the abuse complained of. which the Hon. Member usually pursued; but he had altered Mr. GLADSTONE agreed that the words of the clause his motion in the present instance, on finding that it appeared sufficiently stringent to prevent the introduction of did not exactly suit his purpose in its original form. American wheat under the guise of Canadian flour, but so. He (Mr. Wakley) felt that a division upon the present motion cording to another of the Customs Acts, manufactured goods would be rather an unfortunate thing; and he proposed on the were always taken to be the produce of the country in which subject his suggestion to the R9ht Hon. Baronet, that he they were manufactured, and under that claus e th e should grant a Committee at another time. They wanted en- flour had been introdu c ed as Canadian flour. If it should be thought advisable . to introduce words, enacting that no flour quiry now; but there would be no use now in going to a div.- sion. His Hon. Friend would, no doubt, be defeated by a should be considered as colonial flour that was not manufacture& large majority, although it would be desirable that they should be acquainted with the special burdens upon land. from wheat grown in the colony, they might b e i ntro d uced into this clause. No doubt the landed proprietorss of this country were greatly sir. LABOUCHERE th oug h t i t would be by no means de. injured and oppressed, and were not in a state of luxury and sirable to re-enact a clause which had already proved ibo independence.—(Laughter.) lie wished the Hon. Member : rative, Pe• for Sussex were in the house to tell them that the times are , Mr. S. O'BRIEN wished t o as k th e Secretary for the CO. not what they had been, and that Darby and Joan no longer , lonics or the Ili =ht Hon. Gentl eman at the heed of the Go rode - upon the same horse.--( Renewed laughter.) E ver y one , g corn to - be imported duty free, or at a nominal rate of duty, pro_ vernment if there would be any objection to permit colonist however, who reflected upon the consequences of the proposed cer n im th i c )or C t o e l d m i s n ia t l o tiLieegi:ollaotnuyrr ev.q•ouualldinplaacemoaundtutoty the o n pro t foreign ec . income tax must see that it would press severely upon the in dustry of the country, while the great landed proprietors would vcoidr escape scot free.—(Cries of " No, no." He hoped, however, tion given to home-grown corn ? that, under all the circumstances of the case, his Hon. Friend , No answer liavAng been given to th e quest i on, the Member for Sheffield wo u ld as k the permission of the House 1 The clause was agreed to, with some ver b al amendments, to withdraw his own moti on .—( H ear , h ear. ) Clauses 6 and 7 were then a gree d to. Mr. T. DUNCONIBE wished to say a few words in reference On clause 8 being proposed, Ito what had fallen f r o m th e N o bl e L or a, the Member for Sun- , Mr. WODEHOUE asked if there w ou ld b e any ob j ect i on derland. The Noble L or d sa id th a t if this , motion had been to introduce a clause ordeting Consuls to inform the Germ• brought forward on Thursday, he should have voted for it. Ile ineut immediately of any prohibition being issued by Foreign (Mr. Duncombot knew not whether the constituents of the Powers against the exportation of corn, and to the publication. Noble Lord would understand his approving of a motion on of those despatches in the London Genetic? Thursday last, and opposing it that night.—( Hear, hear.) The answer was totally inaudible la the gallery. He wished to know who was responsible for making a House. The clause was then agreedo. • —(Laughter.) His Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield , On clause 9 being proposed, was to suffer on that occasion, because there was _il o o se Ho u u n s_e last ; Captain PECHELL rose to propose the following. insertion Thursday. He (M-. Duncombe) was one d of. those that House , rth- foreign core, iii the clause :—" That evergvessel tuiperfing ' nate four-and-thirty Gentlemen who came down . and which shall export Braish manufactured goody shall, in the full expectation of seeing the landed interest, groaning upon proof of such eltKrtation, be w ad e d t o a drawback of under the burdens which they are supposed to suffer-- such part of the k i ty w hi c h was p a yable upon such earn at the Hon. Friend on that occasion • (Laughter)—ready to assist his • , time of its entering into port, as hereinafter mentioned • that but not one of those Gentlemen were present. _(Bear, hear. )is to say, if the value of the goods So exPo---- r&d shall, ' according He recollected that Mr. Carmine had, on one occasion, said to the fair market price ,thereof, to be certified by be that it was the duty of the Government always to mak e a 1 , equal Ile or . exceed the valtte of the corn so ire, a House. —( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for i .