The Sun. — London, England, 1825-04-30 00:00:00

astemplish the beneficial purpose he wished to attain. Whe ther the BM were or were not passed, he should persevere as long as the law continued, as at present, an intolerable nui sance. The House then divided—For the Third Reading, 94 Against it, 69—Majority, 25. The Bill was accordingly read a third time, and on re-enter ing the Gallery, we found Mr. S. WORTLEY proposing an ad ditional clause, but after a few words from Mr. LOCKHART, it was withdrawn. Sir 0. CHETWYND suggested several vefaal amend ments, which were adopted, and the Bill was pass.-d. LABOURERS' WAGES. •- Lord J. RUSSELL moved for an Abitract open the subject a Labourers' Wages. • • PROVISION FOR THE CATHOLIC /LERGY. Lord F. L. GOWER said, he rose to Move a Resolution . whish would record the opinions of. that House on - the expedi ency of making a provision for the Ro man Catholic Clergy of Ireland. If, since the period berore the Recess, when he;gave notice of hie intention to-bring this subject before the House, he had naturally looked forward with some apprehension to the responsibility which such an undertaking involved, and with ausiety which might have led him to wish that some one of these highlyeseiftedindividuals, posessing powers so much be yond any which his humble talents could supply, had introduced this question to their notice—he could not but think, now that circumstances had occurred sine sin nsion he gave that notice, which mtha terially lessened the apprehe which the importance of e eetereeweisetrany excited, when he heard the Hon. and Learned ilernher for Winchelsea attribute an Importance to this question scarcely inferior to that of Catholic Emancipation itself, lie could not but feel, differing as he did, in a degree, aeto the importance that his confidence rose in proportion to the individual benefit which he thought must be-the result of his proposition. While, therefore, he went far with that Learned Gentleman in his opt. inion of the importance of this question, he did not despair of being able to Persuade him to go some way with him in think ing it a fit subject for consideration, as to how far it might be likely to promote the welfare of the Sister Kingdom. Diffident as he felt himself, whenever he had directed his humble means of judgment to this question, still he had always thought, approach ing it with a mind unjaundiced by mean and local prejudice, and unaffected by any illiberal party spirit, that it would materially tend to promote the welfare of Ireland.—(Hear, hear !)—Diffi. dent, indeed, as he felt upon every subject connected with the affairs of that country, he felt happy to find that his opinions were shared by many of those illustrious men, whose exertions were now unhappily-lost to thaellouse-ehappy, he would say; that his opinions had been shared by Pitt, Castlereagh, and Cornwallis. They were supported, too, by one eminent man of the present' day, whose sentiments upon the question he would take the liberty to lay before the House in an extract from the Debates of the year 11312. That Gentleman, the Member for Louth (Mr. Leslie Forster) whose knowledge of the details of this question—whose laboriourexertions--whose extershre research and powerful advocacy classed him high among the enemies of Catholic Emancipation—has said,— " Had the Parliament of Ireland (he meant the Parliament select' first relaxed the Penal Laws) consulted the Welfare of that country, they would not have adopted a policy towards the clergy which has estranged - them from the Government, and yet placed- a power in their hands which may often prove injurious to it. They (the clergy) should not have been left dependent upon the bounty of their flocks, and placed almost hi a statteof pauperism, if they offended or differed from those who contributed to their support. The Veto I consider an idle bauble, not -worth either acceptance or refusal, but if that day should ever-come othen the Catholic Clergy would be paid by the Crown—when promotion would be laid open to them as well as the Protestant—when a regular education may be ob tained at Maynooth—then I, for one, do not hesitate to declare my opinion, that the difficulties in the way of Catholic Eman cipation will be very much smoothed."- These were the record ed opinions of the Honourable Member many years ago. He - (Lord F. L. Gower) only asked that his little bark might sail in the wake of the Hon. Member's stately vessel, and by the advantage of his skilful pilotage, reach the desired haven. He had stated it - to be his opinion, that this measure would be most desirable, if it could be effected ; and while he knew that it was • considered by many Members of the !louse, and among others by the Ilion. Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Leotighatn) and the Right Hon: Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whose absence he re gretted, both in its cause and effect, that it should be preceded by Catholic Emancipation, still he would leave to the sense of . the !louse both that question and the details connected with the Bill of which this motion was intended to form the ground - work. He would be content to state, as a matter of opinion, the objects he proposed to accomplish, and the advantages he hyped to derive from a provision for Roman Catholic Clergy men. And first, he would mention the improvement which it would produce- in the state of the Roman Catholic Priesthood, by giving them an interest in common with the State— the melioration of the condition of the peasantry—and, as a collateral, but not less iniportant circumstance, the security afforded.to the Protestant Establishment, and the con sequent addition to the stability of the empire.—( Hear !)—With regard to the provision to the Clergy, he -must here explain that he did not mean to make any immediate increase o( in , come to all the Priesthood, but to the two extremes, the Bishops and the Curates. He thought, looking at the sources from whence they derived their present provision, that any fixed in came must be a great benefit, as well as a relief, to the unfor tunate Catholic peasant. He wished here to meet is amine an - objection which he had heard mentioned, that this provision was intended to cut off the connection of the peasan try with the priest hood, and place the latter under the immediate controul of the Government. To that imputation or suspicion he begged here -to give the most solemn denial. lie was disposed to concur upon that point with a Reverend Prelate (Dr. Doyle), whose character stood deservedly high in the estimation of that House that the offerings should, in the event of any provision, be al lowed to remain ; and although lie (Lord F. Gower) would wish to relieve the Catholic peasant from a burthen which press ed heavy upon him, and when he looked at the way in which t. • Loo offerings were made, and considered that they were given upon the most sacred and affecting of all ceremonies—that of the performance of the rites of burial—hecould not but allow that - the peasant should contribute a something to the support of him in this world to whom he looks for salvation in the next. There was a circumstance he would mention here which strikes con viction to his mind as to the propriety of the arrangement he - proposed—he meant that portion of Air. O'Connell's evidence , which referred to the state of the Catholic. Clergy. 'That Gentle man says that the Catholic Clergymen were mostly, if not .al. ways, of the lower orders of society. Now, while he (Lordl. de Gower), could not admit there was. any crime of - reproach •in • that which had been the peculiar characteristic of the first Chris tians (Hear), still lie could not but regret that any eircum eeances should prevent the higher orders of Catholics from be coming the pastors of their countrymen, or that any individual should find occasion to repress his reli g ious zeal from the unta - yourable situation in which he would be called to display it.— It was idle to say that Government could have an intention of controulling the people by interesting the priests,. for it was well known, that though in peaceful times they led, in troublesome tittlt they were obliged to follow their flocks. Upon this sub ject lie had been furnished with a letter, addressed to a friend by the late Lord Cornwallis, and as it might be allowed that his Lordship had considerable experience in the affairs of Ireland, he trusted the House would perniit him to read it.—(Hear !) • Hie Lordship then read the letter, which stated, that the Noble writer being long acquainted with Ireland, had frequently turn ed his attention to a consideration of its affairs, and that - no sub ject had more occupied his attention than the policy of making a provision for the clergy.. From all that had come to his know. ledge, he was convinced that no priest could do his as a loyal subject, without incurring; the hatred or displeasure of his fleck. Thi s w a s the opinion of Lord . Cornwallis. He (Lord G.) coincided in it most fully, and lie would say that it was not to be tolerated' that the Catholic Clergyman should continue in - such a situation. - If he, was active, he was called disloyal—if quiet, a plotter of treason—if the advocate of peace, the be trayer of his religion. He would say that ha should not continue • tens to be lashed to the, essel of the State,-subject to all its for. tunes and vicissitudes, teased abeutivith every tempest,-but that lie should be placed in a situation to act, not as the Minister, or tie Government, or the people, should command him, hut as • duty and conscience would direct him.—(lleac!),He•stated this with the mere pleasure, because it was echo -of the semi. nientsof the famous Edmund Burke on the same subject. "sThe -Noble Lord then read the passage from Mr. Pukes Works, 20 whichlie alluded. He believed that much prejudice and ignorance existed on this subject,. and it was therefore with no small pleasure that be (Lord Gower) turned . to that part of Mr. O'Connell's evidence, when he alludes to the monument raised by a Protestant congregation to a Catholic Priest, .and when he relates the. circumstances of the Protestant Rector and his parishioners accompanying the body to the grave. Such an event spoke _volumes ; it was grateful to turn from the records of bigotry and prejudice to the simple recital of such events as these; it was gratifying to view the transition frond sectarianism to Christianity. If it would appear that property has soured -the impulses of Christianity, he would place them in a situation to draw forth the kindlier feelings; and he would repeat it here that he might not be misunderstood ; but he would reject anti remedial measure, if it was intended. to undermine the religion of those who were to be benefited, or to render their ministers .subservient to the tyranny or intolerance ofd Government. He would tell them, in the language of Burke, he preferred his own faith ; but as long as Ireland continued Catholic, and in his opinion there was very little probability of its ever being otherwise, he thought there was justice, prudence, and sound policy, in giving the Catholic Priesthood a distinct interest in the State. Here he could appeal from theory to practice, and call upon the House to look at the Presbyterians, and point out in .ste y instance of the interference of Government. Since the grant ing of that provision which had been forced upon the attereion . . of every Sovereign since the time of James 1., they had been Mr. IIL'3IE rose to oppose the Motion. He looked at the provided for out of the funds of the State; and yet he would proposed measure as distinct from the other to which it was challenge any Member of that House to point out a more re- said to be allied, but while opposing the motion" he begged spectable body of men, or une mute beloved by those who look- to be understood as not yieldin g to the Noble .Lord in his, ed up to them for counsel. Upon; these grounds he would be desire to ameliorate the condition of Ireland. He objected, content to rest the Resolution, as deserving the support however, to any measure which had - for its object to pro. of the House. The adoption of this motion he would further vide for Catholic priests, unless a similar provision were insist upon as some compensationfor the past misgovernment of made forthe dissenting clergy., H e also objected to a „,ea- Ireland, to the people of th a t co u ntry. They had been depriv - - sure of such importance without nny infertnation having ed of almost every thing but of those hopes of a future state, been laid be fore the House, proving a necessity for it, or de which we could not take from them ; and its charity, as well as scribing the fund out of which that proposed provision was to justice, we were bound now in advance the prosperity of that be paid. Had these been .stated they might have tended to country by every means in our powers There was another topic remove the difficulties. which the measure would have to en connected with this subject to which he felt it to be his duty to counter. He was sure no Hon. Gentleman would attempt to advert. Economy was a watch-word that always influenced contend, that the Dissenters were not entitled to as mach con thepassions of the people, anti was peculiarly calculated to ex- ,ideration as the Catholics in proportion to their relative num cite the jealousy and alarm of a commercial nation ; the House, hers. - The Dissentees of Ireland were estimated at 000,000,- he hoped, would bear in mind that principles of economy their clergy at 300 to 400, who were paid about 2001. per an might sometimes be stretched too far, and instead - of being use- Mini each ; the exact sums were 11,904/. for the dissenting ful and creditable, they become a _ disgrace to an individual, clergy, and 4,9891. for sending Members from the Synod, and a curse to a nation.—(Hear !)—That word—that .charined in all 13,894/. Was it upon these facts that the Noble Lord word—would not surely carry force and influence with it, who- eagle I upon the House to agree to a vote of 250,0001. a-year ever may be the magician ' using it.—'hear')- , When it ,was to the Catholic Clergy, and to such, a paltry provision for raised as an 'obstruction to a measure, which was calculated the dissenting ministers. The gallant officer (Colonel Pa-: and intended to give relief to an agitated country , --to tranquil- keidionit said we owed the dissenters nothing ; now he lize a long-suffering pe a s a ntry—to eradicate from their minds (Mr. Hume) would contend, that if we owed the Catholics the host il ity which they entertained against others of their any thing, we owed the Dissenters much more. He did not country, and to " cleanse the foul bosom of the perilous stuff' thipk.the people of England and Scotland would consent to that weighs upon the soul," autioo restrain the arm which was giant such a stipend without previous inquiry ; for these rca hitherto moved for midnight assassination—these were the de- sons lieshould move as an amendment, for a Committee to in sitable objects of the great measure which was now before the quire into the policy of granting an annual suns for the support House, and which -would derive additional force and effect from of the Dissenting Clergy of England and Scotland, and of the those measures by which it was- proposed to be succeeded, one Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland, and also to consider what of which he had not the honour to submit. Although this was ought to be the amount of such grant. not, perhaps, the proper period to allude to the details of the • Mr. W. BA NtiES thought the Noble Lord's motion in .present measure, yet he wished to give the House an outline volved an unreasonable proposition, and one which did not meet of the plan lie intended to submit, which might, howtrer, be the wishes of any party. It appeared from the examinations subject to subsequent alteration: In this plan, the task was before the Committee, that the Catholic Priests would rather simplified to hire by a recurrence to precedent : that prece- do without the stipend, and that the laity would not-consider it dent was fir be found in the establishment of the Preebytee as a boon ; therefore tile Catholic Clergy and laity were both rians in Ireland. A direct salary was first paid to the Clergy opposed to it. The Noble Lord had stated, as one of the bene of that body in the reign of James I. They subsequently re- tits to be derived from this areangernent, that the people would ceived, under a new regulation, the. regium donusti in 1719. in be sewneatedfrein the clergy, which would diminish the in the reign of Geoige 1.., and the last arrangement had been fluence of the latter. There was no necessity for such a conse. made- respecting them in 1803 by Lord Castlereagh, which quence; for if the Catholic. Relief Bill passed, the advocates was the onehe would allude to principally in the motion that of that ineasure.held, that the spirit of insurrection would exist he should recommend. The number of parish priests in Ire- no longer in Ireland—(Hear, hear !)-11e considered that the land were 934, or, to take them in round numbers, 1,008.= argument of the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume) Besides these, there were curate', - who were at present very was entitled to much consi.toration. Ile agreed with that Hon. scantily and insufficiently provided for. As in the case of the Gentleman, that it was not a pleasant thing for the Dissenters Presbyterians, according to the last arrangement, he would to see a large class, standing in the same relation to the Esta. Fropose to divide the clergy into three classes ' • for the first class blishett Church , assuming a new ground, whilst they were left he.would propose to take one-tenth, or two hundred, at 2001. in their old Station. It would be a great grievance for the Dim aenear ; for the second four-tenths, or eight ,lmndred, 1201. centers to be obliged to pay the Catholic Priesthood ; it would a-year ; and for the third class, or one thousand, 601. a-year. oblige them to support no less than three systems of religion.— This would require an annual sum of 196,0001. As to the The Protestant would have to pay his own Clergy and the Ca provision for the Roman Catholic clergy, considering the sta. tholic Clergy; the Catholic would hare to pay his own and the tion they had to fulfil, the obvious demands upon them, and Clergy of the Established Church; but the Dissenter would the charities they were called upon to supply, it would not be have to pay the Clergy of the Established Church, the Roman ' an unreasonable provision to give the four Archbishops 1,5001. Catholic Clergy, and his own Clergy too. If the Dissenters a-year, for the 22 Bishops, 1,0001. a-year, and for 26 'Deane should press those objections, be felt that the argument would 3001. per annum. This would be a sum total of 35;000/., be all on their side. Under all the circumstances, if the pro being altogether a sum not exceeding 231,0001. This 'was, no position of the Noble Lord was carried into operation, he could doubt, a considerable sum, but no larger than was mated to the scarcely consider that the Established Church existed as an purposes for which it was required, or than would be repaid to Established ('Much, anti he should therefore call upon the lion. the State by the advantages it would derive from such a .provi- Gentlemen agreeing with hhts to express their decided negative sion. It would entitle Protestant rulers to address the Roman on the measure. Catholic clergy of Ireland in a different tone from that in which - Mr. I'. P. COURTENA V apologised for addressing the they were entitled to address them now, and to say to theth— House, anti hoped that the same indulgence would be ex. " SVe supply you from our own stores, and we do not ask for tended to him that he might hope - for if he were a new an unfair return in asking you to exercise your. influence as Member. Ile wished, while he had a hearing, to expresi Christians, and for the benefit of the country. We possess a hie dissent front some of those with whom lie w a s hereto power which it would be vain in you to attack, for we possess fore in the habit of acting, in doing ,which lie would go no means to defend it, and we are determined to do so.—(Hear !) further into the general question of Catholic Claims than was But you in your turn possess& power, which, as we alter the necessary for a due understanding of the present measure.— mode of government adopted. by our forefathers, we expect you For his own part lie never saw any objection to these claiMs will turn to promote the mutual advantages of all classes of that did not apply with equal force to the case of all-Protest your countrymen , and eiethehoon is given with a grace and ant Dissenters. In the proposition then before the House, they spirit, you will be disposed to turn it to the promotion of that were called upon tint only to vote for the general question of charity which is the first duty of religion, and the epirit anti Emancipation, but also that which went .to make a provision ob j ect in which, and for which it was established on earth." — for the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church. In their doe (Hear, hear !)—Any effort to disturb that tranquillity, which 'trines, that Church was not more repugnant to the principles of it is their interest as well as duty to encourage and establish, - the Church of England, than-were the received and acknow. must only terminate in common ruin. The measure was one ledgrd doctrines of many classes of Protestant Dissenters.— that would bind the Roman Catholic Clergy more closely to the Nay, On the contrary e he saw finne affinifwbetween the Roman State, mad whatever was the charge to the revenue, would be Catholice and the Established Church, and less danger to be amply repaid by a diminished army list.—(Hear, hear!)-The apprehended from the latter than from the Dissenters. He Noble Lord aoncludcd by moving that it is expedient that pro- did not believe that time Roman Catholics would wish to sub vision by law should be made for the maintenance of the secular vest the Church of England, with any other view than that of Roman Catholic Clergy, discharging religious functions in substituting their own.—(Laughter.) —The Dissenters, he con- Ireland. tended., would destroy it even without a similar view. He would Colonel BAGWELL, in supporting the present motion , ex- ask, was the danger removed or brought nearer by the payment pressed the respect in ;inch he held the Clergy of the Estab- of. the Roman Catholic Clergy ? When their religion ceased fished Church of this country for their learning and piety ;"but, to be proscribed; would not the Roman Catholic Clergy en highly as they merited attention, their remonstrances ought tertain reasonable and natural expectations of seeing their own not, in his opinion, to prevent the House from adopting a men- religion established. For his own individual part he felt the. sure essential to the peace of Ireland and the honour and con- strong conviction ; that the Clergy of the Roman Catholic cord of both nations. He had no admiration for the Houton Chttreh might be brought into much closer, connection with the Catholic religion, bat it was improper, he thought, to impute (2burch of England than they had hitherto been. lie was afraid idohatory to a Christian sect, the more so as the laws w hich that what lie was going to say might subject him to reprehen. were formerly passed against the Roman Catholics , were not sion, but he could not help declaring, that he thought the passed against the faith of the Roman Catholics, but against . Church of England required too great a minuteness of confor the practices of the Roman Catholi c s in this country at a parti. unity, and he was then convinced that the time had arrived when cular period. He would be lenient to the errors of the 'lonian the Articles of the Church of England ought to be revised.-- Catholics, as he hoped that others would be to his own. As.to (Hear, hear !)—lf any one would take the trouble to read the this measure, he supported it on its own merits, and because it elirty-nineelrticles.—(A laugh.)--He would rather close his would render the power and influence of the Roman Catholic observations then say any thing which would make this solemn_' Clergy serviceable to the State. The other measure, relative matter a subject of ridicule.—(Crier of "Go on.")—lie then to the elective franchise, he also supported upon separate proceeded to notice some alterations whiCh from time to time grounds, because he thought the present system of elective had been made in these articles, and observed, that being mat franchise in Ireland wss bad, and required revision ; but he ters merely speculative, no two persons could be found to agree supported them both on separate grounds, and distinct from in them. To this he would only add, that being a supporter the Roman Catholic Question, which he supported as a mea- of the Catholic question generally, he would find it his duty to sure of substantial justice, essential to the prosperity of Ireland, vote against the present measure. and to the safety of this great empire. Lord 0. CAVENDISH did not believe that the Catholics of Mr. LESLIE FOSTER was anxious to take an early oPPor- Ireland expected that their Church would become the este tunity of offering to the Noble. Lord his sincere thanks for origi, Wished one in that country.—(H ear ! that the present measure was intended to erect in that country noting the present motion. n e was desirous also to correct a )—lf he himself thought misconception into which some Personshad fallen, that he (Mr. a grand hierarchal establishment, with a powerful revenue and L. Foster) had maintained that there was any irresistible barrier an influent ial train of instituti ons , suc h as wou ld ena bl e it t o to the concession of the Catholic Claims.----(Hear, hear !)— lt c ompete with the Protestant establi s h men t, h e would certainly was natural dint a difference of opinion should exist upon the oppose the measure ; but be did not think it would have any subject of those Claims. He had his own opinions upon that such effect. lie put it to the Ho use , w h e th er it w a s just or po subject—opinions which he had maintained in early life, and from litic to leave any longer six millions of their Catholic fellow which he saw no reason at present to swerve. With respect to subjects, in the present state of exclusion—whether it would not the Catholic Laity (the aristocracy in particular) lie had never be wiser to attach to the Constitution and the State ? The State seen any difflcoley in the way of concession as far as they were could riot d o with ou t the Catholic Clergy in the Government of concerned. lie had never maintained that they were unfit to Ireland ;it should have moral masters and teachers of the Irish participate in the enjoyment of civil rights; on the contrary, he people.—(hear !)—The payment intended for the Catholic was acquainted with most of the leading men of the Cetbolic Clergy was not excessive, it was merely atr much as would enable Aristocracy of Ireland, with those who, if the measure of Email- the State to give to the peasantry enlightened and educated in cipation passed, would be most likely to obtain seats in that structors. He hoped the House would support both that mea. llouse and his knowledge of those gentleman enabled him to cure, and the great one o f C at h o li c E manc i pat i on ; b ut h e state t hat there were no persons more ca l cu l a ted t o do th em also trusted that the details of this Bill would be such, as to honour by their co-operation.—( Hear !)—The ntisfortune o f remove the Catholic Clergy beyond the undue influence of the this question, however, was, that the laity formed but a part of Crown, or of any Foreign Power. He thought it would be a the Catholic body, and that the most influential and the mo s t great advantage to *lreland, which was, if not in a state of dangerous was the Clergy. Such was his feeling, and it w as barbarism, certainly in a state of ignorance. Many of her with this feeling that he wished to attach the Catholic Clergy t o evils had arisen from that ' ignorance. A well paid re the existing Government, and by that means prevent the evils spectable Clergy would rend to enlighten that ignorance. which he could not but apprehend front leaving them in their The present measure would reform - and moralise the mind present state, forming a kind of imperil / in in is/Teri°, exercis. of the Irish peasant—even though it stood separate from the ing a predominant influenceover the minds of the lower orders, great question, it should have his mo s tco r di a l a nd conscientious and with no motive of attachment to the State. He had been support —( Hear ' hear !) favourable to the principle of the veto, when originally sug. NIL Secretary PEEL next rose, and said, that he was in gested, but had thought it did not meet the evil for which it duced to offer a few observations to the House at that early was proposed as a remedy—because it only gave to the Crown hour, as the debate threatened to last for a considerable period. the right of interference in the appointments" to the highest It was agreed by. Hon. Members on all sides, that the present ranks of the Catholic Clergy.---( The Hon- and Learned Mem- was a separate question in itself, and quite distinct from the con. ber here read an extract from aspeech made by him on a similar sideration of others. The *trine -which condemned civil dis subject, in the year 1817, to prove, that in opposing the ques. abilities, on account of religious opinions, may be proper, or tion at present before the House, be was not acting i ncone i s te may be not.. He would_ not on that occasion utter a word ently with his former expressed opinions.)—He was principally upon it—he would state no opinion on it, upon which the ad. opposed to the measure, because It, was a provision by a Pro. vocates of the Catholic Relief Bill could ground a declaration, testant State, not merely for the support of the Catholic Cl erg y, a discussion, or even a dissent. ' The present question induct- hut to enable them to promote those objects which were a lw a y s ed distinct considerations ; it should be looked at on grounds ' uppermost with them—the advaocentent, greatness. and glory distinct and independent of the subject of Catholic Eman. 9f the,Catholie R e li g ion, H e did not now, nor at any former ciPati°n• The real point b e fore the House was, wheth er period, oppose the claims of the Catholic Laity to th e f u ll be- the State would support and foster the religious opinions of nefits of the Constitution, provided sufficient security weregiven those persons, the payment of whom was contemplated by the against that over-reaching and innovating principle which hi s . motion under discussion. 'He could see no natural bond of tory vroved was the essence of their religion. It was c ontended, connection between the two measures—lie could perceive no that no danger would attend the admission into that House of reason why this particular question should be discussed at this a few R oman C at h o li cs, f or t h at once admitted they would p artic u l ar time. Suppose Catholic Emancipation to be carried lose their di t i nct i ve character. That assumption he denied— in this Session, what would prevent the discussion of this mea and by analogy; for it had been proved that time admission sure in the next. The ensuing Session would be on many ac that no class of risen had had the effect described. The West countsehe more proper. The mind of the Catholics w a s now Indian Proprietore for ex a mple. had they lo st their distinc- in a partial state of fervor. If - the Catholic Relief Bill should tive charact er ? . H a d t h ey in that House c eased to act pass in this Sessi on, both the Parliament and the country w ould together ? Certainly not. F or whenever a question was 1°- come to time consideration of the present measure in the next der discuesion, whi c h i nvo l ve d their -interests as a cl ass, „ th ey f amn il with temperat e f ee lings and unbiassed judgments.-- were to be found actinu together i n n effect . harmony °a — tt•- (H ear i e--No question was more i m p or t a nt than that of .the son—whether i n relate ra t the admission of sugar f rom B en . ,connection of the Catholic religion with the State. None deserved gal, the coffee of Macao, or the cotton of Egyp t. In like man- more cool, more calm , more dispassio nate, discussion. The net_ the Catholics wou ld, if admitted, be •Cound a ctin g as one Hon. Baronet ( Sir F. Burdett) proteosed as a condition o f this man in that „House on every occasion , in wh ich the interests of Bill, that th e S tate should provide an annual stipend for the their .religiuo should b e conce rned. ,But .if the day were to Catholic Clergy of Irel a nd. Now was there any yractical in arrive when the Catholic Cl a ims should be divested of those formation before the Titiuse to enable it to legislate on that dangers which had so f req uently been described as likely to re- important subject ? Was there even a knowledge among stilt from conceding them, he should M hail it not onl y as a mea- embers of th e _r eta il s o f t h e very measure on w hich the y sure calculated to promote time safety of the state, and one of were _called on to give their vote ? Did lion. .3 . letribers peculiar -satisfaction to his own feelings. In his view of the know .what particular sum was proposed to be paid b the question before the House, the character of the proposed stipend State to a Church which was not to be subjec t . to t he e cone () should be a principle of alleviation and not of trod of the State—to a Church which wits intend de State • for remain, unconnected with, provision for the Catholic Religion by a Protestant . , l'• tent details. after the donation of that stipend, to time people, the country? No • he could not see how a Protestant State could conscientiously and independent of, the Governinent of or consistently apply its revenue to the support or extending of Gentlemen knew nothing , absolutely nothing, of those =polo tile power .of the Catholic Religion. Ilow then could they be required, or why should they proceed to enact a law on the subject without a full and clear explanation of those details ?—(Hear !)—ln no country of Europe did the Catholic Church- exist paid by the State, and, at . . the same time, remain independent of the State.— ( Hear !)—But it may be urged that England was an exception in favour of the principle of the motion. He did not think so. Her national institutions -bare directly against it—the payment by the State of 250,000/. a year to a clergy over which the State was to have no controul, was clearly opposite to the principles of the Constitution. Ile did not claim a controul on the part of the State, with a view to increase the influence of the Crown, in the North of Ireland had never been productive of any thing but benefit. The Catholic Clergy were equally de serving of payment and assistance from the State. The Ho nourable Member entered into an estimate of the high character and the useful services of the Roman Catholic Clergy. The evidence taken before the Committee was full of proof on this point, they were ready to make every sacrifice of fortune or of life to promote the general welfare and tranquillity of the country. Ile thought this the most desirable moment to press the Bill, and the expence was scarcely worth a moment's consi deration. The Hon. Gentleman protested, on the honour of a Member of Parliament, and a Gentleman, that he had received the greatest assistance in his .magisterial duties from the ltoman Catholic Clergy, and he felt it his duty to support every mea sure which would give them relief.—(Hear !) Mr. GOULBURN opposed the present measure, because the House was not in possession of the requisite informa tion. The motion of the Noble Lord was general, vague, and inconsistent. If the House were prepared to come to a decision, that the Roman .Catholic Priests were to be paid by the State, that they were to take security for the great measnie, as it was called, the only mode of proceeding~ was to say at once what payment the Priests were to receive. It was not unimportant at the same time, to con.; sider what would be given as security to the country. If he understood the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman, the in tended measure would diminish the influence of the Priests, by promoting a proper system of education • but in proportion as they decreased the influence of- the Secular Clergy, they would add to the difficulties of the Regular Clergy. if they made provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy, it would be unjust to withhold it from the Dissenters. The precedent would be most unfortunate. It would hold out to all classes of Dissenterathat they should be turbulent, and persevere until they gained sup port like the Catholic Priests. The Right Hon. Gentleman did not wish to argue the propriety of making a grant to the Dig senters generally. He should confine himself to the question, which ought to stand on Its own niellts. He certainly could not' view, without alarm, establishments in every parish in Ireland, operating against other establishments. It was scattering the seeds of animosity, and he was obliged to object to the propoli.• tion, because it held out expectations which the House hereafter would not be prepared to realize. Mr. CALCRAFT, in the then exhausted state of the House, was not disposed to make many observations - . He saw how the question under consideration was connected with the great , measure. Looking at the bill for the benefit of Ireland, he thought the three questions ought to be taken together. The sum of 250,0091. could not be a matterof objection, particularlY if they considered the state .of the Irish Clergy, and that the. peace of Ireland was concerned. So anxious was he to cam. plete the measures of security, that he would go further than the proposed sum. The period had arrived when the Roman Catholic Clergy could take the proposed allowance without any disgraceful submission, and Gentlemen should not pause in . making the proposed grant. The resolution had his hearty concurrence. _ _ or to add to its power—he disclaimed any such intentions—he mentioned the circumstance merely for the purpose of shewing the political importance of the subject, the intricacy of its con nections with general principles of State policy, and the anomaly of its provision from the particular maxims of the British Con stitution. The House may, of course, consider whether the State ought to pay the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland in the manner in Which it 'supported the Protestant Clergy of England, or the Presbyterian Clergy of Scotland, or in the Method proposed by the Noble Lord who moved the resolu tion but at all events, he trusted that they would seek some sound and practical information before they should proceed to make it a subject of legishitive enactment.—(lleac, hear !) The allowances made by the Crown at present to the Presby terian Clergy of Ireland could not, in his apprehension, be considered a precedent for granting the provision now required by the resolution before the House, because the House was not in possession of the necessary evidence to form its opinion. He had this very evening inquirtid if the evidence had been printed, and distributed for the use of the Members, and lie had . been told it • was not yet printed. In that evidence he was informed that Doctor Cooke had stated distinctly before the Committee, that the Presbyterians of the North of Ire land did not attempt to dispute any of the doctrines of the Church of England, but, on the contrary, were disposed. to as sent to them. IVavin ,, altogether all theological argument on the subject, the Legislature must, if they made this allowance to the Catholic Clergy, be prepared to alter the fundamental ar ticles- of the Protestant Religion : indeed, it would be vain and silly to ask Members coining into this House to take the usual oath, after having voted 2.50,0001. to support the Ca. tholic Church.—(Hear !)—lt was desirable that the priesthood of Ireland should not, for political reasons, receive their educe tion in a foreign country ; therefore the grant to Meynooth Col lege stood on altogether different grounds from this, which ap portioned 10001. a-year to each of the Roman Catholic Bishops, 1,5001. a-year to their Archbishops, and so in proportion for the various orders of the lesser clergy of that church. Not a single Member had this evening referred to the very important head of providin. , for the regular clergy of Ireland. The provision was only intended for the secular clergy ; and jet it was matter of notoriety, that in Ireland there were no less than forty-two religious houses of the Franciscan or Demi tan Order. Was it not to be apprehended, that if these were not provided for, there would doubtless be abundant ground for controversy between them and the secular clergy ; or that a _spirit of volunteering to outstrip the seculars in the zeal. ous performance of duty might pervade this Body, and mate rially interfere with the purposes of the Legislature in passing this bill ? Besides, the whole of this arrangement was not likely to prove effectual, except a communication took place on the subject with the See of Rome. If the Roman Catholic Priests are to be paid by our Government, will the Papal Go vernment dispense with the obligations and oaths they now are obliged to take. Looking to the evidence of Dr. Doyle, he thought it was not possible they should not come to the conclu sion that they ought not to make the change, without sonic con 'cession being made on the part of the Pope as to his absolute right of investiture of Bishops, Archbishops, and all the lower classes of Catholic Clergymen into their respective livings,— Would the [louse feel disposed to go the length of voting at die rate of 1,0001. a year to the Bishops, and 14001. a year to the Archbishops of this Church, without a change taking place in this respect, so as to affbrd a security as to the right of investiture by the Pope ? rie did nut mean to state this as an insuperabledif ficulty ; but he meant to say. that the two measures should go to. gether, the provision and the security, as it were pari paws. He confessed, for these reasons, he was sorry to find that this ques tion had been mixed up with the Catholic Relief measure, be. cause he felt it would unavoidably prove an obstacle, from its general unpopularity. It .was remarkable that the :piscopa lian Clergy of the Church of Scotland had no regular provision _whatever made for them by the Legislature. It was in itself • sufficient to render the proposed provision for the Roman Ca tholic Clergy unPopular ; that they would in this case derivetheir support from taxes levied for thepurpose whilst hitherto they had each been maintained by their respective parishes. He more than all deplored the precipitation with which this measure was at tempted to be forced at this moment on the House, without ma turely weighinx its consequences: it went to give a qualified eats. blish men t to the Catholic Clergy in preference to the Clergy of the Protestant Diasenters, which appeared to him to be decidedly op. posed to the principles of the Revolution. He begged to be under stood on this occasion as not having said one word On the ins. propriety . .or propriety of this arrangement or provision for the Catholic Clergy. If the Catholic Relief Bill was carried into effect and conceded°, then it would still be a matter of grave consideration for the Legislature, before it determined on its expediency or inexpediency. Finally, lie felt convinced that the House was proceeding with very blameable precipitation, if it now sanctioned that which he could not be induced to think was at all occeSiary to render effectual the political con cessions moved for by the lion. Baronet's Bill; and though not desirous to excite any alarm on die subject, he could not help fearing that the House would yet have to regret the preci pitation. Mr. C. W. WYNNE was not prepared to say that the two subjects of legislation alluded to by his Right Ho nourable Friend were so inseparably connected that one might not pass without the other. 'Bet he thought this measure decidedly a measure of policy, and that its being now passed would remove some of the obstacles interposed to the pass ng of the other Bill through both Houses of Parlia ment. In thinking thus, lie knew that he thought with some of the highest authorities on the subject of the Catholic Claims—namely, Mr. Pitt and the late Lord Londonderry. Mr. Pitt, above twenty years ago, had stated in his place that a provision for the Catholic Clergy was the security, and the only security, which the House could look to with confidence in case it conceded the measure of general political relief. He thought that security was the best which did not depend on assurances as to religious tenets, but in mak ing, the Catholic Priesthood this link and connection between' the government of the country and the Catholic population.— ( Hear !)—Twenty years ago it had been asked, if mere Catholic Emancipation would reconcile the differences in Ireland with out any accompanying securities? He admitted that if the re solution before them were passed it might be highly necessary to r!fer the subject to a Select Committee to examine the subject closely in its detail: for instance, it would be desirable in pro viding for the salaries of the Bishops to restrict foreigners being appointed to fill these bishopricks by the Court of Rome.— Though it was just that die clergy should give up the incomes they now possessed in case this Bill passed, yet it would not be desirable they should be restrained from taking fees on the per formance of those duties for which the Protestant Clergy are uniformly paid fees. It was said, why was not the provision extended to the Dissenters of Ireland generally ? Ile would answer, because the :genie political necessity did not exist for the concession. Recollecting perfectly what was the political condition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland,. their numbers, anti the exasperating influence on their minds in consequence of the galling remains of the old Penal Code, he could not but agree that there was a pressing necessity for this provision, which did not exist as respected the Dissenters. The greater the power, which might possibly become ill-affected or adverse, the greater the necessity for the change taking place imme diately. He remarked, he said, with pleasure, that there was no disposition to interfere with the House by petitions as to its determination on this point, which lie could not but consider a favourable symptom of the state of the public mind, as being completely satisfied to confide the adjustment of this important measure to the wisdom of the Parliament. Under these encou raging circumstances, therefore, he felt himself justified in giv ing the resolution his cordial support. Mr. R. MARTIN said, that he was able to state, from the most intimate acquaintance w i t h a ll the Catholic Hierarchy, that they were wholly disinclined to receive any stipend f r o m Government.—(Hear !)—He believed that the Catholic Clergy thought the Bill would. not pacify the country, and it was un necessary.t at htlee'y,h would receivedoCual Catholic o l l o i a ssc mucher Clergy, ; y no i r - f from e p the e o s ue present e t S . The Catholics did not originate the m easure , b u t At mor e from the voluntary grant of the people th an th ey wou ld i tfi t hue a ey r n o rc s ee e c oe f iv 'r le, o er i d o t any e p m esot b ipp e l r ee s n. d o f t he receive under tho Bill. He, however, would support the Bill, and his reason was, to take away a great reproach from the P r otestants.—(Hear !)—He consented to the measure in justice himself.—(hear!) Mr. S. RICE requested the indulgence of the House for a ve ry short period. His reason for supporting flag vote was because the Catholic Clergy was more powerful than any other class of Dissenters, and because the Catholic people were poor, and unable to pay their Clergy. All relief ought to be carried home to the poor of Ireland, and this measure would be a practical relief to them. He' wished to see the influence the Catholic Clergy prolonged and well directed. He wished to see Christianity taught to every class in Ireland. The ex treme poverty of the lower classes excluded them from the common benefits of Christianity. Some of the most dangerous combinations in Ireland tad been directed against the dues exacted for the Clergy. , lie did not , h ow ever, by paying A stipend to the Catholic Clergy wish to make them depend ent upon the Gov ernment. It would make the Government too strong, and the 'influence of the - Clergy too weak. Yet it was his desire to m a k e the Clergy look to Government and Parliament with affection and respect. The Ilegium Dunum 3lr. CREEVEV was sensible of the wretched state of the Roman Catholic Clergy, and had no objection to, provision'. being made for that body, but to pay them out of the property' of the Protestants of England, he never would consent. if they were to be provided for, it ought to be out of the Church . Establishment of Ireland. Let them settle the mode among themselves. He would never vote for paying a Catholic Priest one shilling out of the pockets of Protestants in England. Thr • Hon. Member concluded by saying he should give a conscien tious vote against the resolution. Mr. BROUGH AM did not wish to occupy the time of the House. He felt after a long debate, and at the end of a week, • that Gentlemen might be excused for expressing itnpatience.---, (A cry of hear !)—And he assured an Honourable Gentleman, who agreed with him in exclaiming hear ! that he would not detain him from his wished for rest, which the Honourable Member had deserved by much watching, or much sleeping.— (A laugh.)—He felt it necessary in justice.to his own cokaii tency, to state shortly the grounds on which he voted fox the question. He felt difficulty about the' (loci:thin. It was one within a narrow compass, from the time Mr,. Fox brought the- Catholic Question forward _ twenty years ago, he had never heard it - - discussed without an admission that something for the Clergy must be done. They had gone through the 'great question before they came to this, and finding it to be one on which his mind had been long made up, he should give his vote for it. He was not called upon to consider the condition of the Catholic Church. The Resolution only proposed that some provision be made for the Roman Catholic Priests.. He had felt alarm lest there should be any increase of the pa tronage of the Crown. All that anxiety was, however; removed, for there was no unconstitutional and dangerouos augmentation of that power proposed. lie should consider this power of the nomination of Priests if conferred on the Crown , dangerous. The sum to be given was about the amount paid to the Presbyterian Clergy, and he readily voted the moneY to the Catholic Priests because they were instructors of, the po pulation. He could not admit that every sect of Plueute rt ' ought to receive money from the Government. If they were to support all sects, they might pay the followers of Joannati Southcote, who believe in Shiloh, and who consist of twelve • persons. Nothing conld be more dangerous to the Catholl4 question than to admit that the allowance was given as a sects- nty. Ile denied that security was necessary, because if they once admitted security ought to be taken, there was proof of. the existence of danger.—(Hear !)—lie would not allow there was any danger in granting the Catholic Claims. If the rues ' sure should pass, security wOuld be found in the hearts of tb Irish people. Mr. PLUNKETT said he should not detain the House-fiv,s, minutes. He rose merely to make' one observation, and he did not think it of importance, he should not have trou bled them at that late hour of the night. Ile concurred in almost every thing that had fallen from his Honourable, and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham), and particularly in his last observation, that this was not to be considered 1 14 a security. It was not dealing fairly with it to look at it in that point of view. But it would allay the apprehen sions of some who apprehended danger to the Protest-* ant Establishment in Ireland. He begged of the House to: attend to the observation of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last but one—(Mr. Creevey)—he did not blame the Hon. Member —he spoke his sentiments distinctly and manfully. The 110.° 10 -- Gentleman seemed fully sensible of the evil of allowing six ". lions to remain without the means of adequate instruction, but 1 1" objected to the mode of payment. Ile said the provision s houla come from the funds of the Established Church. Now the ad— vantage of this measure was, that it would be an answer to thos e who said it was most unfair that the Protestant Clergy should be supported from tithes paid by the Roman Catholics. n'''" s ' cause, if the Roman Catholic made such an objection, woul d they not have here a direct answer—might they not say, w e. the Protestants, contribute to the maintenance of your c h urc h. Those, therefore, who might be alarmed about the effect 4 - , concession on the Established Church in Ireland, should fe e ' that this measure would operate as a buttress to support it. The House having divided, the numbers were, for the Original motion - Against it . • - 205 162 Majority - 43 Mr. HERRIES, upon the part of Mr. Hosmssox, osire notice, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would, on next goni day, state' to the House certain Resolutions respecting W at present in bond. The other OnnElls of the DAY were then disposed of, i lnd the House adjourned at ONE O'CLOCK. LIST OF THE MINORITY Of 47, on Mr. W. 'Whitmore's Motion for a Committee of the Whole House to consider of the Corn Laws.—April 28- Althorp, Visct. Gurney, R. H. , Sefton, Earl of Baring, A. Hume, J. Sykes, D. * • Bentinck, Lord W. Heron, Sir R. • Smith, W. - 6 ., Bernal, R. Hobhouse, J. C. Tierney, Rt. Ml' Buxton, T. F. James, W. Thompson, V • , Bright, Henry Littleton, E. Wood, Alderroa Calcraft, J. Leader, W. Wilson, T. Calcraft, J. H. Lester, B. L. Wortley, J. S. Cradock, S. Moberly, W. L. Williams, .1- Calthorpe, Hon. F. Maxwell, J. - Williams, W- Calthorpe, Hon. A. Milton, Viscount Wilson, Sir.B- Corbett, Panton Monck, J. B. . TELLEUS* Calvert, . C. Nugent, Lord Gascoyne, J. , Davies, T. 11. Phillips, G. Whitmore, Ni • Denman, T. Palmer, C. F. ' PAIRED Orr. Evans, William Robinson ' Sir Geo. Mansfield, J- Grenfell, P. Robarts, W. A. Pares, T. Glenorchy, Vise. Robarts, G. J. ' Wyvill, M. Ue It k stated that the Bank of Ireland is ab ° to establish a Branch Bank at Waterford, and that the 1 0° I ; c 1 of SCOTT and Co., will have the direction. We underso_ the formation of the b ranc h i n our c i ty h as b een a l re ady P r o t ductive of great ad vantages to commerc i a l men, ex clusive, t o the benefit derivable front the reduction of the rate of inte r l t ed . four per cent. Th e di rect i on h ere cou ld scarce l y b e count“ing to Gentlemen m ore lik e l y to promote the welfare of the trail Ire the community than those in wh ose h an d s i t h as b een placed the selection of Mr. POPE, as Law Agent to the Bank °L to k land for this city and district, is no less creditable to the m Directors.--(Cork Paper.) INCENDIARIES.—The final examination of the, Rees's, father and son, charged with the late outrageou 4 :ea tempts at Bishop's Storford, took place on Wednesday , T i l l. the father w as di sc h arge d, an d t h e son f u ll y comm i t t e d for