The Sun. — London, England, 1831-10-01 00:00:00

, of primary importance, without reference to the opi nions and feelings of the people affected by it. The writer of the pamphlet meets this point fairly. " Is the House of Lords (he asks) an isolated and im passive idol, before which men may bow down but not speak ? Is it as deaf to reason as Baal ? So its interested partisans would assert,—so we its con stitutional friends deny. We declare, and are proud to declare, that the House of Lords is a necessary, intelligent, reasoning, deliberative portion of the British Constitution. And, being such, we are prepared to approach it with arguments to point out consequences, to show the temper of the age, the desires of the community; in short, to pour into its ears, the wisdom and petitions of its fellow-subjects. And bold and bad must that man be who bids this House not attend to him. After all what is intimidation ?—the intimidation from which the wise and brave revolt, it is from bully ing threats, unattended by reason. If I see a man walking towards the edge of a precipice, and tell him a few steps will plunge him into a blind abyss, he will probably stop; but if a by-stander thereupon call him a fool and a coward, will he, to show his wisdom, his enurage,and indeperidenee,plunze head long down ?" After all, what is the principle of the British Constitution, but that all who are entrusted with power and authority are liable to abuse it ? The people are justified in looking with jealousy on the Press, more especially in a question, in which many of them have a personal interest at variance with the interest of the nation. When a Judge is disposed to commit injustice, he no doubt feels it unpleasant to be intimidated from committing it. But intimidation is not the less proper, are a ll accountable to one another, for societ y supposes de pendence. The Deity alone . s irresponsible. Many Noble Lords would, no ''.oubt, act purely under any circumstances; bur many also would act under an improper bias ; but for intimidation; that is a pru dential est;•mate of the consequences like to flow from their votes. Well has the writer observed.— " Brave men are little influenced by threats ; they can afford to he afraid. The Great Captain of the day did n o r shrink from confessing his fears of a rebellion in Ireland. He has not that small pittance of courage that shrinks from concession ; and we shall see him now, if haplessly he continue unconvinced, boldly contending upon the broad merits of the question, upon its anti-ultra provisions, and not upon the weak and Buhadil fears of giving way to the stedfast resolves of a whole people. He may deny that the people are so resolved, but I have better hopes of his shrewdness and observation-----of his candour ; for I cannot feel otherwise than probli of that great man to whom his country and Europe at large are so greatly indebted. " If by intimidation," adds the writer, " Is meant an expositionof the dangerous consequences likely to ensue from a rejection of the Bill by the Lords, then there is—there has been—and there ought to be, much question of inti midation. Let those who quail hide their heads with an ostrich courage, and fancy, because they will not see the danger, that it is past; but let the stout-hearted thank those who enable them to look it full in the face, before tbey resolve upon an attack. " What is danger, then ? It is lest the long-growing discontent and disaffection, generated by the almost uni versal belief in the existence of gross abuses in the whole system of Government, should not, now that it is concen trated in one focus by the charm of Reform, burst, should the Lords reject that Reform with overwhelming force upon them and their order, and through them upon the whole nation. • ti • "At the present crisis, truth—bare truth--however unpalatable, however fearful, must bespoken. A rejection of the Reform Bill by the Lords would be the signal for revolution—deliberately, avocrediy, I say, for a revolution. In that single word what awful miseries ate included. It makes the blood run back upon the hardest ',heart, when the mind's eye looks upon the fair scenes of smiling pros perity around, when it thinks upon the gigantic strides in improvement and civilization that this glorious country has achieved,—when it contemplates the noble path be fore it, the bright example it has set to neighbouring states, the marked exemption from internal strife with which it has been blessed ; or when it draws nearer home, and dwells upon the thousand domestic sympathies, upon the eleganciez, the affections, the engagements of social life, and thinks that at one fell word these enjoyments may cease—this affection be broken, prosperity be blighted, civilization thrown hack ; and the example that has hi therto been held up fi,r emulation be hereafter cited as a fiery beacon to warn nations and individuals from obsti nacy and perverseness." The writer seems to be not without hope that the Duke of Wellington, whom he acquits of a cor rupt exercise of his authority—" the laurelled hero of a hundred battles, will not rise up in defence of those boroughmongering trammels which his owl) great exploits in war enabled him to shake off, but which sent the indefatigable Cellingwood broken and disappointed to the bed of death, and Moore, less unhappy, to the glorious grave his valour achieved in their very despite. What is there in common between the frank, gallant soldier, and the corrupt proprietor of ten seats? No; let him and those gallant brother spirits, whose valour by sea and land has written their names in the history of their country, as well as in its Peerage—let them and the two services stand forth and free the future Moores and Collingwoods from the evil influence that so cruelly blighted their career ; let them also liberate the scar-worn veteran, and the enduring soldier of fortune, from tlic griefs of eedh ss super cession, and that hope deferred which maketh the heart sick." No men appreciate more correctly the benefits likely to flow from the Reform Bill than the officers of our army and navy, who, if they have any spirit and feeling, most, long before they have reached the mid-day of life, have a thousand times cursed the day and hour that ever they entered a boroughmonger army. Reform opens the door to merit and service. Anti-Reform says to them, be without hope— • " Lasciate ogni speranza voi rile entrate." Fraud, corruption, and hypocrisy are inseparable from a boroughmongering Government, of which the great object is to discover how little merit it is necessary to employ as a screen for their lazy and stupid connections, that the political fabric may be preserved from tumbling about their ears. Bo roughmongering is another name for fraud. It is the substitution of the substance for the reality. It is, to use the words of the writer of the pamphlet, `• A Government which, under the semblance of freedom, hides certain checks and resources, which, as the curb-chain under the herse's chin, may re strain infinitely more than the light ostensible bit in its-mouth." The notions of the boroughmongers, he adds, " tend to isolate the Peerage and the Throne, to place them behind a well fortified en• trenchment with a strong masked battery of rotten boroughs ready at any moment to open upon the villainous people." The writer concludes with a powerful appeal to the Church, and more particu larly to the Bishop of London, who, in his younger days, professed liberal opinions :—" Let him now s t e p forward, and, having first thanked his God f o r placing such a glorious opportunity of reconcili ation in his hands, let him address and convince his brother Bishops—let him choose between the ill-, fated Bishops of what is called our rebellion and the wise Bishops of our revolution. Let him call upon them, by their duty to heir God and to their Church, to preserve their holy religion from imputation, and their establishment from destruction. Let him call upon them, by the faith they teach, to set their faces against legalized and acknowledged corruption; by the heavenly ex ample of their great Master to lean rather to the lowly than the high, to the poor than to the rich ; to believe with hint in the integrity and singleness of heart of the people." No Minister of England, w i t h a n unreformed Parliament, can preserve his honesty. Mr. Hume, at the Middlesex meeting, the other day, stated that in the course of his Par liamentary career the Ministers had all been more virtuous than the Parliament, and that the', were not allowed to give effect to their intention s to pr e . serve the people from being pillaged. It is curiou s that it should be stated as a characteristic of the system of complete responsibility, that a rogue in power would be forced to be honest. There is, in the New Monthly Magazine for October, an ar ticle on America, evidently from the pen of Cooper, the celebrated Novelist, and Secretary of Legation at Paris, in which it is stated that " the whole se curity of our institutions, and I think of our succe€s, is to be found in the double fact, that the mass will not submit to law s w hi c h i mpose unnecessar y re straints, and that the responsibility of every agent is constant, direct, and severe. We often say among ourselves—' What matters who is President or Go vernor—he cannot do any harm: Now, rely on it, if there were any self-government in the case he could do a great deal of harm. So tremendously effica cious is public opinion, and so constant and sudden the action of popular will, that I do believe a man might be taken from a penitentiary and put into the Presidential chair, and (provided he could be kept from stealing the spoons and abconding) it should he found that he would maintain a tolerably clean life, and a reasonably dignified deportment."— Morning Chronicle. The struggle for Dorsetshire is likely to be much more sharply contested than was at first supposed. The Anti-R?formers have resolved to sacrifice every thing, even money itself, in the hope of securing what they know to be money's worth to them and their friends—the present farce of representation. With this view they have set a large subscription on foot to secure the return of, Lord Ashley. It is said that as much at thousand pounds has been already subeeribed ; and that one gentleman, Mr. Brown, of Frampton, contributed two thousand pounds of that sum. Still the friends of Mr. Pon sonby and Reform arc as ardent as ever; and though our correspondent, whose communication will be found in another column, notices the drain of cash which the popular party experienced at the last elec tion as an unfavourable circumstance for the present contest, he evidently participates in the general im pression that the people will prove true to them selves. After what Dorsetshire has already done, it would be ungenerous to doubt its zeal upon this second, and, if possible, more important occasion. —Morning Herald. The caustic observations which Sir Robert Peel indulged in the other evening, on that splendid specimen of penal legislation, the Spring-Gun Bill, were not too severe for the subject that called them forth. If any thing could make Ministeis in general, and Lord Melbourne inlparticular, ashamed ofladding to a Statute-book, that breathes in all its pages the spirit of barbarism, a new law founded on a principle equally absurd and inhuman, it would be the taunt ing remarks with which it supplied S;r Robert Peel, at the expence of the consistency of the Whig statesmen, who, when out of office, had so long pro fessed a most virtuous and uncompromising zeal in the cause of rational and enlightened criminal juris prudence. It is melancholy to think that the pos session of power should have such a fatal influence upon the understandings of men, that the politicians who had made it a point of duty, as it were, to assail the irrational and vindictive legislation of Sir Robert Peel, should have furnished the legislator whose ca pacity they impugned, and whose reputation they at tacked, with the best apology for all that was objec tionable in his works by surpassing, in their first effort of penal legislation, his least rational examples. It was, if we mistake not, upon principle, that the Whigs a few days ago advocated the abolition of spring-guns, as a barbarous and atrocious invention, unfit to have the sanction of law in any age or in any country ; and yet the Whigs have not been a year in office, when we find the character of the country is again to be disgraced, and the name of preventive justice desecrated, by a revival of this most treacherous and cowardly contrivance to shed the blood of man by a process of assassination which cannot wake any distinction between the in nocent and the guilty. Well might Sir Robert Peel say that " when the present Government was formed he certainly expected that some very en lightened system of jurisprudence would have been adopted ; but what was his astonishment to find that the only measure which Ministers had pro posed, relative to the criminal laws, was a revival of the law which allowed the setting of spring guns 1 It was cruel that the monument which had been erected to the Honourable Member for Stamford, in honour of his exertions for the abolition of spring-guns, should thus be undermined by his own friends." Never was there a bitter sneer more richly deserved. If Lord Melbourne do riot feel it, he must, indeed, be gifted with a moral constitution invulnerable to the force of cutting reproof. We have said that this assassination by machinery is equally absurd and inhuman. It is absurd, notwithstanding the solemn dictum of the Courier on that subject, as a protection to property against fire; for, without taking into account what a morning contemporary has observed, as to the dis charge of a spring-gun itself being a probable cause of setting the stack on fire which it was set to guard, we would remind our readers that the burnings in general which took place last year in farmers' stack yards occurred under circumstances which induced the belief of a chemical preparation having been prc jceted f,om a distance into the stacks and other agri cultural property so consumed, which made it un necessary for the guilty party to enter the premises in order to effect the work of destruction. But under all circumstances, and whether the incen diaries find it necessary to enter the premises or not, we contend that the diabolical contrivance of the spring-gun is more likely to destroy the lives of the innocent than the guilty. The man who has guilty intentions will be wary and circumspect, where the man who meditates no harm will be care less. The one will contrive means of destroying the property with as little risk as possible, while the other will walk into the ambuscade of a spring gun from mere thoughtlessness. When spring-guns used to be set in preserves, not only mere tres passers and nut-gatherers often perished byt hem, but even the very gamekeepers that set them some times fell victims to the blind vengeance of their own sanguinary arts. But in the mean time game was not the more secure, or the poachers the less successful. If there be a notice in the day-time, of what avail can it be in the night; or, even in the day, to a child or illiterate person ? In short, nothing can exceed the barbarity of this contrivance, as a protection to properly, but its folly.—Morning Herald. The question, " What will the Lords do ?" be comes daily of more absorbing interest. We have still to make the same answer. The Lords will do that which their consciences dictate ; a love of their country, and of those institutions which have ren dered their country great and powerful, will point out to them the course to pursue. They will re member, uninfluenced by passing clamour, that the specific object for which Governments are instituted is the protection of property. This principle is acted upon every day in ordinary affairs. The di rectors of commercial associations are uniformly chosen from among the largest shareholders, because their great stake gives them the strongest interest to study the general good. The interest of the smaller liareholders is virtually represented by the larger, and all are protected where the management is prin cipally entrusted to the latter. So in the Govern ment of States. Democratical interests are repre• sented in the aristocratical, but aristocratical interests are not represented in democratical. The public good, therefore, requires that aristocratic interests should be represented in the House of Commons, and it is be cause they have hitherto been so represented that the empire has enjoyed so long a course of pros perity. Democracy ought to have, as it bad, its due share of representation, because all power is liable to abuse ; but if a preponderance were given to it, it would inevitably unsettle, and ultimately destroy, the system by which all interests are now equally protected. The Reform Bill gives this prepon derance; it places power in the hands of those who are incapable of using it fairly, and who have an immediate interest in disturbing the existing ar rangement of property. Unless agriculture, manu factures, commerce, the Colonies, the Church, the monied and shipping interests were severally repre sented in the House of Commons, they would be placed in continual jeopardy. Rank and other dis tinctions can be protected only in the same way; but property is the most important consideration, as it virtually represents every other kind of social pre-eminence. Now it has happened that what may be called the more permanent interests of the country, the monied, colonial, and in a great measure the agricultural interests, have come to be repre sented by means of the small boroughs ; these the Bill sweeps away, and leaves an overwhelming pre ponderance to be returned by large towns. It leaves, in short, a vast mass of permanent and vital national interests at the mercy of democratical caprice. The Lords know their duty ; they will refuse their sanction to such a measure as this, and in so doing maintain the honour and prosperity of the empire.—Morning Post. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 110 USE OF LORDS, Si PTEMBLR 30. The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack Ten Minutes before Five o'clock. Mr. CRAMPTON, Mr.. O'FARRELL, Mr. I:italic's BA mr,s, and others from the Comtnoni, brought up the Public Works (Ireland) BM, the Ir6ll Embankment Bill, the Marquis of Bute's Estate Bill, the Common Law Officers' Fees Bill, the Charity Commissioners' Bill, and a Private Bill. The Eighth Report of the Commissioners of the Holy. head Roads Bill was also brought up. Lord PLUNKETT presented a petition from a parish in Galway, in favour of the Galway Franchise Bill. Lord POLTINIORE presented two petitions from places in Devon in favour of the Reform Bill. Lord ROLLE presented a petitio❑ from Exeter against the Reform Bill. _. Lord CLIFDEN presented a petition from a diocese in Ireland, praying for a full composition of tidies in that country, and complaining of the extreme hardships they were subject to under the present system. The Marquis of WESTMEATH thought the compo sition of tithes in Ireland should be made compulsory. The Earl of WICKLOW supported the prayer of the petition, observing that in that part of the country where the petition came from, there was a regular organized sys tem to repel the payment of tithes, and unless Government interfered, it was his firm belief there would soon be a re jection of payment of every species of tax. Lord CARBERRY was afraid any longer to oppose the composition of tithes being made compulsory. He agreed with the Noble Earl who had just spoken on the necessity of interference on the part of the Government, in that district from which the petition came. Lord MORLEY presented a petition from Plymouth, praying their Lordships to pass the Reform Bill as speedily as possible.—(Hear.) It was his conviction if their Lordships adopted the principles of that great • measure, it would be the means of securing that peace and contentment in the country which was so much desired, and would act as a great stimulus to the disorderly to be come industrious and useful members of society. Lord ROLLE presented a petition from certain of the freemen of Exeter, praying their Lordships not to pass any Bill which went to deprive them of their franchise. Earl 'MORLEY—Iie had in his hand a petition from the inhabitants of Plymouth, in favour of the great mea sure of Reform now pending in their Lordships' House. A petition had before been presented from the same borough in favour of the Reform Bill in the earlier stages of its progress ; and now that the Bill bad come into their Lordships' House, the inhabitants of Plymouth had thought it incumbent on them again most earnestly to petition their Lordships to pass the Bill ; and to show that the feeling in favour of the Bill had not only not abated but bad grown more intense, he had to state that the present petition was signed by three times as many persons as had signed the former petition.—(Hear, hear.) The petitioners stated their conviction, that on the passing of this Bill depended in a great measure the peace and pros perity of the country—that the excitement would never cease until an efficient measure of Reform had passed— and that it was then only that the people of this country would return to their ordinary habits of industry. Even the Noble Lords on the other side of the House, with the exception of two or three persons, admitted that some rek r.n was necessary. But the people would not he satisfied without a real and efficient Reform, and there fore those who approved of Reform ought to vote for the present measure. The Duke of SUSSEX presented a petition from the county of Middlesex, requesting their Lordships to pass the Reform Bill. In presenting the petition his Royal High ness observed that, in consequence of the informality in the petition (it being signed only by the two Sheriffs) lie could present it only as the petition of those individuals, yet he could assure their Lordships that it was agreed to at a most numerous meeting, and where but one opinion ex• fisted on this great measure. His Royal Highness would not, at the present moment, enter into the merits of this great question that was to come before their Lordships on Monday next, as he considered there would be a much more fitting occasion for doing so, and he bt I laid it down as a rule that nothing irritating should fall from him either one side of the subject or the other. His only wish was the interest of his country. His Royal Highness then presented petitions to a similar effect from Ludlow, Ross, Cripplvg - ate Within and Without, Boston, Wintry Ward, Bridgew . iter, Banbury, Epworth, Redruth, Haverton, and Gosford. On the motion of Lord TENTERDEN, the order of the day for bringing up the report on the Prescription Bill was discharged, and the report was ordered to be brought up on Friday next. The Earl of CAMPERDOWN, in presenting a number of petitions from Scotland on the subject of Reform, said in the discussion of the question last night a distinction was attempted to be drawn between Reform in England and in Scotland.—(Hear.) But the people of Scotland knew no such distinction, for they were well aware that if the Bill on their Lordship's table were thrown out, there would be no Reform for them.--(Hear, hear.) The whole of the petitions he had to present were in favour of that measur e brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers. He was sure their Lordships would pass the Bill, as by i t , the privileges of the aristocracy would be secured, and placed on a tirm and sure foundation. The Noble Lord then presented petitions in favour of Reform —three from Dundee, one front Haddington, one from Dunbar, one from Inverkeithing, one from Musselburgh, two from Ar broath, five from Montrose, one from Aueliterarder, and five others from plac,s in Scotland, the names of which we could not learn. Lord KINNAIRD presented a petition in favour of Re. form from nine Corporations of the borough of Dundee; and other three from places in Scotland, the names of which were inaudible at the bar. • Lord MELBOURNE presented petitions in favour of Reortn from Shepton Mallet, Melton Mowbray, and tither places. SUNDERLAND PETITION FOR REFORM. The Marquis of CLEVELAND—He had petitions in favorr of the great measure of Reform, to he presented to their Lord-hips, from Sunderland and some other places in the county of Durham. The petitioners had but a very short time for signing these petitions—only the few days since the Bill had come into this House; but, not withstanding the shortness of the time, the petitions had been very numerously and respectably signed. The Noble Marquis at the table (Londonderry) would recollect that he had expressed some doubt as to the feeling in favour of the Reform Bill being so general in the county of Durham as it bad, by many, been supposed to be. A petition in favour of the Bill had been agreed to at a meeting of the county of Durham on a former occasion, and presented to this House by a Noble F r i en d o f hi s, w h o was now a b sen t from indisposition. H e hi mse lf was not present at t h a t meeting, but he certainly th oug ht t h at i t h a d correct ly ex pressed the opinion of the county. But he was now con vinced that the opinion of the county of Durham, in favour of the great measure of Reform, was nearly as universal and unanimous as it was possible for the opinion of a considerable county to be on any subject. He had resided for the greater part of his life in the county of Durham, and had for a long time had his Majesty's commission there as Lord Lieutenant.- - He had some property in the county, and was very generally acquainted with the rnost respectable part of the population; and he was convinced that the general feeling was in favour of the great measure of Reform. — The first petition from Sunderland was signed by 4,068 persons ; the present petition was signed by 6,725 persons —a tolerable proof that the feeling in Imo'. of Reform had not abated at that place, but had, on the contrary, become more intense. The Noble Marquis had a large property in that c o un ty, an d, un d er th ese circumstances, it might reasonably be ex p ec t e d t h a t h e wou ld vo te with him (Cleveland) and the other Noble Lords on his side of the House.—(Hear, hear.) There was in the c ounty of Durham a great deal of Church property, and be thought it justly due to the body of the Clergy there to say that they had taken no part in this political question. Some individual Clergymen had, indeed, attended meet ings,i and joined with other g e ntl e m e n of the county n promoting petitions for Reform. But the conduct of the Clergy in general bad been such as he had stated it to be. The city of Durham had agreed to a petition in favour of Reform, which was to be presented by a Noble Friend of his. There were certainly some apprehensions entertained out of doors that the Reform Bill would not be favourably receivel iu their Lordships' House; but he hoped that these apprehension, were unfounded, Indeed it would be better for their Lordships to pass the Bill now, for if they rejected the Bill at present it would be brought in again, and must he passed, for• the matter would certainly not rest there.—(Hear, hear.) liisLotensHtr then presental petitions in favour of Reform from Sunderland and Bishopswearmouth, from Darling ton, Banbury Castle, and Gateshead. The Gateshead petition prayed their Lordships to pass a measure which would restore the Constitution, which was now reduced to a shadow, to ancient and proper vigour and power, and render it the bulwark of the prerogatives of the Throne, of the dignity and the just privileges of the Peers, and the liberties of the people.—(Hear.) A NOBLE LORD presented a petition to the same effect from a place in Somcrsetshire, and from Dumfries, in Scotland. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed, that per haps the difference between him and the NU)le Marquis might arise from their being best acquainted with differ ent parts of the county of Durham, but he was still rather inclined to believe that the opinion in that county was not so general in favour of Reform as it had been repre sented to be. He thought that to trouble their Lordship further upon the subject at that moment would be irre gular and inexpedient—when the measure to which the petition referred came regularly before their Lordships, he should give his vote free from any sort of bias whatever. The Marquis of CLEVELAND said, that a Noble Friend of his had a petition to present from the city of Durham itself, as well as from the county. The petition Was laid on the table. The Duke of BUCKINGHANI, calling their Lord ships' attention to the vast number of petitions which were to be presented to the House on the subject of Par liamentary 'Morin, ds'u'ted very much whether there would be time for their presentation, consistently with so speedily • disposing of the Reform Bill as must be the general wish of Noble Lords. Probably, then, it would be thought not inexpedient to sit on Saturday (to -day), for the put pose of receiving petitions. He was sure that great and most inconvenient delay must ensue, unless some ar rangement be adopted. The LORD CHANCELLOR fully agreed with the Noble Duke that much inconvenience must be the conse quence of their not coming to some understanding respect ing petitions. At the same time, it would be impossible for them to sit on Saturday, as that day would be abso lutely necessary for the purpose of completing the ventila tion of the House. He had himself many petitions to present, and, so far as the number of signatures and the respectability of the parties signing them gave value to a petition, those with which he had the honour to be en trusted must be considered as possessing the very highest value ; hut, nevertheless, in opening them to the House, he was resolved to do so as shortly as possible, and, so far as humble example could go, to promote the saving of time upon so urgent and important an occasion. The fact was, that :15 the petitions entrusted to him came from per ' sons of landed property—from persons possessed of cor porate rights—and also from persons of great wealth and intelligence, he should in ordinary times make it his busi ness to address the House at some length upon each indi vidual petition ; but were he to attempt to do so in the present instance, his strength would, he was sure, prove utterly inadequate to the undertaking ; neither would the time of their Lordships suffice, even if they sat till twelve o'clock at night. Ile should now lay before the House some of the petitions which had been forwarded to him. The first was from the great town of Leeds. The former petition from that town, on the same subject, received in seven days the prodigious number of 17,000 signatures; but the present petition, in two days, was signed by no less than 21,400. The next was from Kingston-upon- Hull, signed by 6,277. The Noble Lord then pro ceeded with petitions from St. Saviour's (Southwark), Whiteburch (Salop), Biddeford, Dumfries (signed by 1,000) Kinghorn, Cockermouth, East Wemyss (though a village, the petition was signed by 347 persons, Fal mouth, Keswick, Kettle, Irving, Totness, Kidderminster (signed by 1,572), Scarborough (900 signatures), Rich mond ( Yorkshire), a place, be observed, which, though not extensive or populous, was wealthy and respectable— it had 800 signatures ; Dalkeith, with 1,755 signatures ; Balfour, Andover, Londale, Hy the (Kent), Taunton, St. Mary, Newington, the parish of Paddington (900 names), Portsmouth (with 3,100), the parish of Lambeth, with 2,600, and several other places. The Noble Lord then proceeded to state, that he had a different class of petitions to present—petitions by no means so bulky, nor bearing so many signatures—they proceeded from Corporate Bodies having charters ; and the petitions bearing the seal of the Corporation were to be received as the petition of the Cor poration. The first of these was from the Corporation of Goldsmiths of Edinburgh ; from the Chamber of Com merce, Edinburgh—a body long distinguished for their loyalty. Then followed petitions from the Corporations of Perth, Cupar, Dunfermline ; the Corporation of St. Mary, Edinburgh ; the Ciceronian Society of Liverpool, He observed that some Noble Lords smiled at the mention of that name, but he could assure them, from his local knowledge, that societies of that nature had in Liverpool been productive of much advantage, had diffused know ledge and cultivated a taste for literature and science, and, what was more, had produced much improvement in the art of public speaking. Liverpool could not only number amongst its inhabitants men of considerable literary emi nence, b•.t several who had very saccess'Ully cultivated the art of public speaking. The Noble Lord then proceeded with petitions from the nine Incorporated Trades of Leith, and from the parish of St. Jamt s, Clerkenwell. This pe tition was certainly signed but by the Churchwarden ; it nevertheless proceeded from a very respectable meeting, and he regretted that it could only be received as the peti tion of the individual by whom it was signed. He had now I lid before their Lordships fifty-four petitions, and he need scarcely say, that if lie had opened them at length, the operation would have taken up too much time. He trusted that their Lordships would not allow any thing to delay their proceeding with the Bill itself; at the same time he could not but feel it was of the very highest im portance that the petitions of the people should be received with doe attention ; therefore he should suggest the expe diency of in , eting on Monday at an earlier hour than usual. It might, perhaps, be found convenient to apply altogether to business during the earlier part of the day—(No, no) that he merely threw out for consideration. A NOBLE Lumen presented a petition in favour of the Reform Bill from the city of Lichfield, signed by 400 pet sons. Lord STUART DE ROTHSAY presented similar pe titions from Dundee; from six incorporated trades of Brechin; from Forfar, Montrose, the weavers and glovers of Forfar ; the hammermen of Arbroath ; from Kilsythe, and various other places, being twenty-two in number. ' propose m u id fa several petitions exan,pi e toghetosl set him by his Noble and Learned Friend, and occupy as Lordoe same L€ll.l.2,leNt,D, said n thatrisin little as possible of their Lordships' time in laying before them certain petitions with which he had been entrusted. In looking at these petitions, he confessed it did give him great satisfaction to see such a feeling as that which had been manifested by the people of England ; but he thought the House would best respond to that sentiment by pro cecding, with as little delay as possible, in the great duty which they had to perform. There was another circum stance which, he confessed, he looked upon with great sa tisfaction, namely, that whereas on the former occasions many of the petitions demanded vote by ballot and annual Parliaments, there was now not one of them went beyond the Bill, which stood for a second reading on Monday next. Again, it was to be observed, that on the former, though many of the petitions were most numerously signed in a short space of time, _yet now the case was still stronger, for there were many petitions signed in a much shorter space of time, and by a much greater number of persons. The first petition which he should have to present was front a corporate body, and one with which he had the honour to be connected—it was from the Corporation of Nottingham, a body whose att ichtnent to the House of Brunswick, and the Constitution of 1688, had been frequently proved. Not only had he petitions in favour of the Bill from that, but front other cor porations—petitions in favour of a Bill which went to circumscribe their own privileges. It would thus be seen how far the corporations themselves looked upon that as corporation robbery, which had been falsely so designated. The town whence the present peti tion proceeded contained a population eminently dis tinguished for industry and intelligence. Here there was a petition, signed by 13,000 in the shert spa ce o f three days. It had been said that it was easy to obtain petitions numerously signed from populous districts, where the people expected they would derive advantage from the proposed change ; but that was an objection to which the petition from Nottingham was not open, for the people of that place were already represented in Parliament, and the Bill would diminish the privileges of many of those by . whom the petition was signed : they considered that the most wholesome practice would he, to have the Commons House of Parliament elected by the Commons of England, even though they themselves might be sufferers by the re sult. Thus this House would see that there was not the sl ghtest abatement of the zeal and anxiety felt on the sub ject of parliamentary Iletbrin. The Noble Lord, in addi tion to the petition from Nottingham, presented some others to the same effbct. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said, that what had fallen front the Noble Lord only proved the necessity which there was for their coining to some arrangement on the subject of presenting petitions. It was really impossible for Noble toidi to present petitions withotel stating whence they came, the numbers by whom they B ete signed, the respectability of the petitioners; the circum stances attending its adoption, and those under which it might have been placed in the hands of this Peer present ing it. He need not say that that must lead to prctracting of the debates on the Reform Bill to a degree scarcely consistent with the dignity of Parliament; or the peace of the country. He thought it would be very convenient if the House would agree to meet at four, and take petitions from four o'clock to six, and determine that after six they would not receive any petitions. It was evident that unless they adopted some arrangement they could not get on. The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with the Noble Duke that they must fall on some expedient to advance the Bill, and he thought the suggestion just made was very ju dicious. It had been proposed that they should meet as early as two o'clock, or three ; but he feared that at that hour they could not reckon upon a sufficiently full atten dance of Peers, at least such an attendance as would or ought to satisfy the petitioners. They might, following the example of the other House of Parliament, set apart par ticular days for receiving petitions ; but he always doubted the expediency of that proceeding ; perhaps the other House might make more free with its constituents than that House could with the people having no constituents. In this matter be certainly thought the example of the other House was rather to lyt avoided than followed. For the present, be thought the best art angement would lie to meet on Mond ty, at four o'clock, and agree to stop taking the petitions at six. He hoped, that in presenting petitions, they would feel there was no absolute necessity fur opening them at much length, at least, each individual petition. Lord HOLLAND had no objection to the proposed ar rangement ; but he would maintain that there was no day of its sitting when the walls of Parliament should be closed against the petitions of the people. The Noble Lord then presented petitions from the county of Nottinghatn, front Boston, from Coventry, and other places. The Duke of HAMILTON presented petitions to the same effect from Linlithgow, Dumbarton, Lanark, New Lanark, and front Lancaster. Earl 3IANVERS presented a petition from the palish of Mirylebone to the same effect. The Duke of RICHMOND presented similar petitions from a place in the county of Ayr, from Woolwich, from Wellingborough, from Northampton, from East and West Stockwell, signed by 1,500. The Noble Duke fulls• con curred in the proposed arrangement for taking petitions from four to six o'clock. WINE DUTIES. Lord AUCKLAND then moved the order of the day for the third reading of the Wine Duties Bill. Ile observed, that there would, under the Bill, he a small increase of the duty on some wines and a decrease on others, so as to equalize the duties on all foreign wine. The Noble Lord then stated the scale of duties. Cape nine was form: rly subject to a duty of 2°. 3d. ; French to 7s. 3d., and all other wines to 4s. 10.1.—it was now proposed to make the ditty on Cape wine 2s. 9d., and all foreign ss. 6d. It was ex pected that this change would not have the eff ct of diminish ing the consumption of wine, and it was calculated that the increase of revenue would not be less than 176,0001., so that whether it was viewed as a matter of finance or com mercial regulw ion, it was equally free from objection. Jr was quite a mistake to suppose that the present measure was diet tted by any spirit of hostility towards Portugal— it merely went to remove that which was actual and direct hostility and injury to France. It was in the highest degree inexpedient that between two countries so nearly connected there should exist any bar to the freedom of commercial intercourse. If, as had been said, that mea sure should be regarded by Portugal as hostile to her in• tercets, he could not see what the retaliation was to which some Noble Lords seemed to apprehend the Portu guese Government would resort.—(Bear.) The whole quantity of wine exported from that country was eighty thousand pipes annually, and of those sixty thousand fotind their way to this country. Under those circumstances, it teas not by increasing the duties upon British manufactures the Portuguese Government would attempt to retaliate, as, by doing so, they must diminish the consumption of their own wines in the country in which the greatest quantity of them is used. 7'7 Lord ABERDEEN did not agree with the Noble Baron in considering that measure as one merely of finance, or one of sound commercial policy. He thought that the expectations which the Noble Lord entertairnd of ad vantages to accrue to the revenue from the Bill before the House would be disappointed, and that as a commercial measure, it would prove extensively injurious.—(Hrar, bear.) But he had, besides, other reasons, of a higher nature, which compelled him to view it as impolitic and unjust. He was aware that there had been a great diversity of opinions upon this subject amongst persons of high authority upon such questions.—( Hear.) He was aware that in the discussion of the commercial treaty with France, in 1787, Mr. Fox spoke of the Me thuen treaty as the commercial darling of England ; he knew 5155 that it had been contended that, under that treaty, this country had the right to put an end to the treaty, if we chose to give up the advantages which we derived from it. But he believed that such a course was quite unparalleled amongst friendly nations, when it was intended to maintain that relation.—(Hear.) Nor did his argument rest there. Ile contended existing treaties had already been violated by the manlier in which that mea sure had been proposed. For the last twenty-five years the Methuen treaty did not exist on the same conditions on which it rested before. It became embodied in the treaty entered into at Rio Janeiro in 1810 ; by which it was stipulated that the treaties already existing between England and Portugal should continue unaltered. It was also contracted that each party should be at liberty to re view the treaties at the end of fifteen years, for the pur pose of alteration, on giving notice to the other party. Now the Portuguese Government had had no notice given them of the deviation from the Methuen treaty proposed by the Bill before their Lordships, and the measure was, therefore, a direct violation of the treaty of 1810. If it should be said that the stipulations of the latter treaty did not apply to the treaty of Methuen, he would ask how was it that the duty of twenty-three per cent. imposed by the Methuen treaty upon British woollen and other manufactures, was reduced, by that of 1810, to fifteen per cent. ? That duty of fifteen per cent. was con tinued until the Cortes was established is Portugal in 1822. Now he would remind their Lordships that if ever there was a period when hostility was manifested on the part of a Portuguese Government towards this country, it was under the Cortes.—(Hear.) They restored the old duty of twenty-three per cent. upon woollen manufac tures, according to the Methuen treaty. They said they did not care for a treaty contracted at Rio de Janeiro, but they would adhere to that which had been entered into with Cromwell, and had subsisted from the year 1654 to their time. But the alteration was resisted by this country, and with justice, on the grounds that the treaty of Me thuen, as well as the other treaties, was embraced in that of 1810. If the treaty of Methuen wig to be taken se parately from the latter, then Portugal would undoubtedly be entitled to the duty of twenty-three per cent. If it was not to be separated, then the stipulation of the treaty of 1810 must apply to it, that neither party was at liberty to depart from the , terms of the treaty without notice to the other party of the intended alteration. He had said, that he doubted the expectations of the Noble Lord as to financial advantages. If the consumption of French wines should be increased in proportion to the di minution of the duty, it was equally probable that the consumption of Portuguese wine would be di minished in proportion to the increase of the duty upon it. If the demand for these French wines, of the sorts which had hitherto found their way into this country, should increase, the effect of that increase upon the prices in France would be such as to check the increase of con sumption here. As to the low-priced wines of France, the diminution of the duties would have no effect upon the con sumption of those wines ; for they had not hither to been excluded from this country by the price, but by the absence of desire for them. What had been the effect of the expe riment already made to increase the consumption of French wines by diminishing the duty ? It was first tried in 1825, and the number of gallons imported into England in that year was one million. But the duty remaining the same, the gallons imported in the last year were no more than three hundred thousand.—(llear, hear.) That was enough to show that the experiment had failed altogether. Was it wise, then, ke would ask, to risk the loss of the great export trade which we carried on with Portugal, for the chance of advantages which experience ini e ht convince us we were not likely to obtain ? He would call on the Noble Lords opposite to consider the stagnation of trade which now prevailed amongst our manufac turers and merchants, and he would ask Lim was it. wise, for the sake of an experiment, to run the risk of depriving them of the matlett which they possessed in Portugal? lie would call on them to reflect that one-sixth of all our experts to that continent was sent to the Peninsula. Of our whole European exports, one-sixth part was sent to the Peninsula, for in this case, it should be observed, Spain was closely connected with Portugal. These two nations were their best commercial customers ; and he much feared, if this measure were carri e d, th a t a grea t i reduction must take place n a trade which had long been most honeficially carried on., The exports of this country to Portugal included no less than 67 aril: es ; arid he had no doubt that with respect to some of them a competition, which this 111VAILIIV Was calculated to produce, would would alter her of duties, and that woul be 1100 mt e drive iapsaut u re s e sot. that tH o p f eo : teliomog,a,alrekvwecotroi would Tandhaen. have recourse roebdcl:lobrsot Lordtthoartldri d e i ir t t ,_utu a ol : t retaliation enoug s h a re. deprive this country of a gr t e w ept of that market which England at present almost to pot' possessed. The average amount of their expor the cei) tugal was 2,500,0001 . per annum. While eoer t hird I amount of imports, inclmiing fruit, ulse, was between 500,6'00/. and 600,0001. p the V - I The balance was defrayed by bills or specioe,dti _ lecult' s e ll' benefit of this country. Now there was , T r France to carry on such a trade; because, haveoe o(ioti wine, and Pie,:cli did not drink port %vine, they would One br an ' I j wil°nuded to tbe of woolens. Last year the ex measure. e,.eaatdr i ieot:ifia:nt , :i r r t e ,a c , in d :h o i l r l; t r i s v e f l o y r o a € l , : v d r o g o o e o , de• greatly affected by 1 2 ,, :tuga1 , , ro i led in consequi:ti, to nearly 700,000/. ; and this was el.. c that 'l t o of our enjoying an absolute monopoly 0- where our manufactures paid only 15 Per dto whilst all other countries were subject to a : 0 about 30 per cent. It was therefore clear that of t he! taliatory measure was necessary to deprive us d u ce' benefits, beyond the mere equalization of the m ote: on the part of Portugal. Another branch of coro aiiiic o would be materially afircted by this measure. f le as sure to the trade in fish from Newfoundland. li e e v;- , eslw able colony ; because, when he had formerly that this measure would be the destruction of tl' a t ; p his a sehim hf Alajeaty's Councile, representations were made t° spal great dealers in fish, from almost every port ila cosu od which stated that they found it; impossible t° . at coo , against the American and Norwegian dealers in c olt modity. The English trade there had, in twe nt Y lto ;erk s decreased 1-10th, while that of Norway au' l „. ye elr had increased in the same proportion. The exc' es ' t , the nopoly of the Portuguese market, with reference _ o r; fish trade, was worth 200,0001. a year to this eo.u tit pot: olifilaetdlalastuPi articlee: ehedefiat:bo; and, in addition to thao they o ught not to l ose ''g s ric h the shipping employed in the Newfoundland trader ° ettl' was highly important to the navigation of this trade` and should therefore he encouraged and protectet..e Fa sides, almost the whole of the 1 'ortuguese COrooler' sOO carried on in British re ships. Not less than 100 citra vessels were employed in that tr tde ; and so gr eat nefit would be grettly deteriorat,td it; in con s l i i 0 1 " this ntea~ure, the proper to place 1.1,,t'e0 Britainr a t u sk g e u , e l s , e wo G oh u oy e : f e ob r i n al m ii n e ga n o t 7i s pl l h i i ; o a tbut s ige e lt r i,l tints. lie might the manufactures tempted to take this step before now .? and the M ror tuP l said, he did not would equalize if t pr to - e c ieef a : i eti or: tt t hihteloe)asr:ti but they prevent ,ei,t,):iejonlyG‘n:so at ,r r t jenihrsten)p,e(pi nr,ce,ehitr:;coesnefesnoerp_. the ,se etast ibt 00e rer, i ,ec t was nothing n t ing that step by e (ti r )i n f:)k o , intsi Portugal hail she,vn tA, iherseeratcnrl((mii,outueneongtaftrisi:ll3.;:forlfhofbace,:s nbit.._n.tbeoe,drlewritor:ll,..l::i so proceeding was, the deference which eve tyu°,',,,,iiic3 o every Government of England, until the P„ T r e 'o studied to cultivate.—(lfear, bear.) If tl, eP' d e , otPi wished to make up for taxes that had been re toit e le ociS.- 4 , did p present e n n o t t t i ;, ' e instead u a the distinction between those of Portugal and fr a , n it do ls , at steti to our rnanuEctures at home, and harsh anJ G ott!' dd additional o a n asyl n t e t o s f adopting towards an ancient ally ?—( Hear, hear.) Thi s !tient, he contended, by the present measure, ire ve o , tugal most unjustly. The same tax was levied ot : coo s priced wines of Portugal as on the high-pried „ ol io * France, for it was a mere fallacy to talk of theo o.r wines of France being imported and consumed 11 ! te ,of consequence of this plan was, that Portueol vr l it n ' e joe value of 101. woul pay the same duty as Fr eun i ,, s oP e r the value of 20/. Allusion had Lien made to t':" t Company. He believed that the character of to c a op irY; pony was but little known in this House or in th e ete clli i,l He knew that loony respectable merchants en ' ''' bene 6c o a Oporto Company to be extremely useful OA were "i t both to the trade and to the consumer. h d e g• evil, it certainly was not one of recen t sta°,:- pals; had existed ever since the time of the MarV'oted hal, and its existence could not therefore be' T - ol ees °l , l the present Government. The charter of th e , ea rs, would, he believed, expire in three or four ),,Iter'!g an opportunity would then occur tnr modifying 0: consolercf:i the system on which it was founded, if it Were tiO, to be injurious. That, however, could not °lel''. friendly diplomatic relations w e re renewed with the r t o ; . tugu. se Gevernment. With respect to tl:e P oic o rbetw , ,i o during the duties on French wines, h e would as le o t''./ the conduct of the French Government to" eooa ds country had been such as to d ese rve so gre at :lo°lle Was the Government of the revolution more i d t he Great Britain than that of the Bourbons had i o rs i s had in his possession letters received lay t oe etg e et city of London, which placed the relations or Froth os tv , with trapper Fance in a curioue point of view. ro9 #a s I re these red, that in September last cell° per cwt. in Paris, while in London it Was nn a .eußl P ,, crso cwt. One would have supposed that coati s of 60' f b vre t o , e rta n nu a Gi e e n trie t t r ou e c rs ia t tca l l r iin o p. ni r i“ t t, l i i ma ii e c a u ct u ac n uo t lmd r y eb t i o r tapfodire'r;;;;::;: But it appeared that by the regulations Of ° e el to at om The orders were there;ore sent to Hamburg, r , s t c o . and other foreign ports. Whilst London, ill 0 0 1 : ei was neglected, in consequence of the order ° et ' e ao: eb duce sent fro England ceuld not be rer' i `J ' i bie e e s? bond.—(Hear, hear.) This was a great liar bie s ill th e British merchaer, who was put to coosi dnra f I ,o l e cto r for :insurance, besides running the hazard no de , ' r eY market in consequence of this ro undabou t j ve,r i l o tiO 4 s munication. One of those merchants ash ii soushly, ca Is it because we are placed i" fre eP, o ur by the French Governm e nt, that the duty 0° t (je t is to be reduced ?"—(11e tr, hear.) He Wa s , n :frO c o prised at this illiberality in the conduct of t"; cou' e ,o o ' vernurient ; fin- he had observed, that in thei tb „ or policy, they were apt to act more illibcrallY,ool $ 0 or Sta'es were; and the mason was, becaus e ' ore follY w illiT 4 till interests were moo?. strenuously and 1 3 % pot ported. The French Government, th°" o t slo sv , e ,eag e i . to treat its with common friendship, wer e ?. - 0 0r nee', taming advantages from other countrieea'ie oel! He had fornierly brought under the noticeo'hscitiedeePooiett ships the activity of the French agen t, l e vil h a t W j ., 6 0 1 , 4 to the Tagus to demand reparation for t oe ole o nated the most beastly sacrilege tbat ever vi be oll r n ee tY I ) (Hear, hear.) That individual took t t he t hott; i which his mission afforded, to slip into (ilearigio3 Ji o article in favour of the French comtner n ,% c o he, ° o o 3 , c i,e Noble Lords opposite doubted the fact w" t it° t oo stated it, but they were, lie supposed, be t . e , a 1101 14 or t , the subject now.—(Hear, hear ) fie s ta " l t ool , freo c , wouid repeat it, that the French Adoir4rai,le to e d st' o ) e portunity of introducing an article fa' nu .j 41 ,et 1 .. jog e ,,eor commerce. They might, if they o f to part of the existing treaty at the el'..„oool°`'a vio la ,„4 notice hieing given to the Portuguese ( " The y balbe f ed F, nisters bad adopted a different course. . sl e t , e f the treaty, for they haul given no u' t , ; ( e ) e o jtl 00 1,i d t ' that the Portuguese Government lo ge e 0 a" ,1 1,41, when they had lost the only tolv a lt thei r pet' co derived from this country, to a l j e o r o ld towards it. On this treaty, it : l ee!) Log ,„ g lish',,se all e privileges n scipGioleraaipi:en:isenitreeriadgietmesti Portugal, rhitstttLia:lg°F.:;lasnl on. But rl s ts su l nit c Y"; r :e e ra i t- !: : : e ; a 5;c t lic : br : o ;elf , e) o cin e t o ai f ne tl ( t i o i s n e t c l o i ip t l r a e i a n t t y s , of insults and : o l' a j dr" n f:sol ts tifi d would have been heard ; because they os i o toe rov i o i. o injuries arising out of certain stipulatia_ snacisl related to matt er s which, but for the ot r o old . ' co l e ' r teat f g c: na l : l ,r e ec d itao u i m :,, i , ) ,...ta r ti i ng e t t da i i t; : . s. a ,sv e ldz n , p , o st r , : ib (i ' e t t e o l i i i e j) i ! :P o l' i ni r ,e ttjb° ; ally, and she paid for it by liavint'lniye obt t i i : .o ir ; ,i r an °s re ‘, . to ' the se pr o other countries. It ought to be treaty of 1661 she had ceded to Eut,lo h e r os ol ' $ s the interests of Portugal as if they , i d s. , • this roeas i . i , r io e i, od Bombay, on the conditior. that to all the circumstance he vielv i ; at "1.,.,t ot unfriendly ; and, consideriogt the thinkingi till brought forte nal, lie could no , or,ly view it oe p t c : ) , an act of hoetility• ce'nli‘noticed, to subve r t py , attempt which he had before lie l i e would t1 ,,, Q , 0 h1e bu t rat ing Government of Portug:" .i ___, by the to b Ot opposite,—that would be too strong 114 .-rnitted by til t for tb 5 ere' doubtedly it was pre s puree as et slo p They heard hourly of shIP : soft" , ), el pose of I se rice r rate as well as t publicly stated, %v.'s for ee t and h hid They were all ready, it such an attempt was countenitishreein‘i-itce‘raiv'(.::auidri°ot'vrje,,alorpt4.o‘j, their VP'. one of sorb where they were to take secrecy + but - e5 ~/ iG tainly a conspiracy, without Portugal gal They were, it the authors expressed the most irt.o a v "_s r D e o ;:l ., ' ; oti er ; ,e s ine, t° P °- ' l lt W 3 o s .ic h t tu' ' e se P 110 have done with his tiro cons 1. t. I ft simply to the decision of I, _ o l i, e o a 103.1 05 would be no danger of a convu wo p 0 0' N P° o r. n t o u 1, if the e le eCO France were allowed to interfere; tt this ,c,:irtiontry Woo