The Sun. — London, England, 1831-04-15 00:00:00

ntain la and v the )f his e sup to be 1, and ;it the Lon 3, and Was called rea'e,l able to h the of dis- with (if he In the of in k with some xed or inti ►t Go- 11,1 say ques t gross o him. can to irepre it, as ulation denied . operty Lnd the )axis of ere : a its prin troy—to because iimendn- and sin y of our le people king, not he said univer be eon ; Ficified horn the k that it to satisfy Oly upon produced had been ed in the valent in be eon vied that ey would 'ace, and terland— jeopardy, It not see. ut he re-,. ling their, rered the' Reform ; d an at ! remem- ho heard, ed the tie n tured in ,ing in his ps to be ometirnes the Noble s of what the Bill, h disfran was, that it not be first con in did not freemen, Lordships ch might Freem e n a rigid as 'tang that the privi mg a w a y it be re ;own; and the Noble ie basis of r epresentation according to the Bill, and that it gave to freeholders votes. They hail votes before in counties, and now they were to be mixed up and neutralized with pau pers, In towns, 101. householders would far outnumber tnuse of a higher grade ; and in point of fact paupers would be the persons to return members of Parliament. The House of Commons would be elected by one class in the State. ire calculated that of a certain number of Inernhers, 136 would be returned by the landed in terest, and 29 3 by paupers. It had been said , that 'ne effect of this Bill would be to prevent universal suffra ge; he considered universal suffrage and uni- Vertal plunder as one and the same thing ; and yet he did not know that he should not prefer universal suffrage t° a Bill like the present. There were three principles of r, presentation—population, property, and talent ; the two first were out of the question in this measure, which he ad mitted would bring talent of a certain sort into the repre sentation ; but what wont lit be? Demagogue talent— the talent of persons, who having nothing to low in the s hape of principle or property, would render themselves r eady instruments to destroy and pull down the long-esta blished institutions of the country. Lord FARNHAM was apprehensive that the measure Would be far from effecting the pacification of Ireland, as the Noble and Learned Lord appeared to imagine ; he was equally sceptical on the subject of its efficacy to put an end to th e anti-Union feeling, which, if at present less appa rent than formerly, had only been repressed for the mo uient at the instance of the demagogues. The LORI) CHANCELLOR did not said that the mea sure had pacified, or would pacify Ireland ; be had merely stated that he believed, in parts of Ireland, it had produced a good effect. He had the authority of a private letter for saying, that " the Reform measure had completely put an end to the anti-Union agitation." But he was much afraid that Government would not be able to meet the evil in some parts of Ireland without coercive measures. Viscount MELBOURNE postponed the second reading °f the Sub-letting Act Repeal Bill. The Earl of WICKLOW objected to the postponew4nr. Viscount MELBOURNE wished some time to be al -I)Wed, to enable him to see whether any alterations would be required in the Bill previous to going into C,immitiee. Adjourned at Half-past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF C031.1110.2V5, ArnlL 1 - 1. Mr, Fennell, from the Admiralty, brought up an ac count of the number of seamen in the Royal Hospitals. Lord STANLEY presented petitions from Warrington against negro slavery ; from the cotton-spinners of Lan cashire, praying that their hours of labour might he re 'laced ; and from the Magistrates of Bolton-le-Moor, against the Beer Bill. EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS. Mr, R. GRANT said he would take that opportunity of saying, that in consequence of the all-absorbing question of Reform not being yet settled, it was not his inten tion to bring forward his motion for the emancipation of the Jews, which stood for this evening ; but he postponed it until the sth of May. Lord STANLEY presented several petitions from places is Lancashire in favour of Reform. Mr. WYNNE presented a similar petition from Sligo. Sir GEORGE MURRAY presented a petition from the Presbytery of Scotland, praying that the elective franchise might be extended to them. The Right Hon. Baronet thought that if the measure of Reform was to be carried, more Members ought to be given to Scotland. It Was quite unfair that large counties in Scotland were only to h ave a fourth share in returning a Member while Small counties in England had two, and in some cases even four. There were towns also in Scotland which contained from 20,000 to 30,000 inhabitants that Were to remain totally unrepresented, whilst towns in Eng land, some containing only 4,005 inhabitants, were to return two Members —( Hear, hear.) After some observations from Mr. ALEXANDER HOPE, Mr. HART DAVIS, Mr. ROBERT GRANT stated that the representation of the Scotch Church was a subject yet open to considera tion. He might also add, that the question of giving re presentatives to the Scotch Universities had been submitted to the Government, though he was not authorised to state th e result of that deliberation. A new Member took the oaths and his seat. Mr. HUNT presented a petition from a suburb of Manchester, in favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform. Th e petitioners at the same time declared that they were desirous of having universal suffrage and annual Parlia ments. The Hon. Member also presented a petition from New Lanark, complaining of distress caused by taxation, praying for a free trade of corn, and to be released from serving in the militia until their grievances were redressed, and among them they included not being represented in Parliament. The Hon. Member expressed his regret that neither the Hon. Member for Waterford, nor the Hon. Membl: for Kircudbright, was present, as they both as sailed him last night. What with Hibernia on the one hand, and Caledonia on the other, he had like to have been overwhelmed. He wished p trticolarly that the llon. Member for Kircudbright had been present ; for then lie night have been convinced by that petition that the feeling to favour of Reform was so not universal as he had repre sented it. As those Hon. Members were not present, he would not say more; but that he had quite enough to de fend himself when he was attacked both by Sawney and Blarney.—(A laugh.) Mr. O'CONNELL, who came into the House as Mr. Hunt was pronouncing the last sentence, said, as he had heard the Hon. Member making an attack on him as Paddy, though he hardly knew why, he must reply. Ile was not under much surprise at the attack, for he was fre quently attacked by the Tories, and the Hon. Member for Preston bad become a Tory. He had found out, like the Tories, that the Bill was not good, and he did what he Could to oppose it. The Bill was not all he wanted; and th oug h it was a real and substantial Reform, the Hon. Member for Preston, like the dog in the fable, was for dr o pping the bone to catch at a shadow. He would find, however, that if he let go the bone, he would lose that, and would not get the shadow of Reform which he was striving after. The Hon. Member for Preston had charged him with trafficking for a Judgeship ; he had never men tioned the Bench in that House but to declare that the Mi nisters would do what was very wrong if they placed him on the Bench. He had been too much of a partisan to be proper person to be placed there, for, whatever might be his conviction that he could do justice impartially, that would not be the conviction of others. The Hon. Mem ber bad also charged him with having made a compromise; now h e never had compromised anything, but he had for gotten his own feelings, and declared himself ready- to support the Ministers the instant be found that they were right. As the Hon. Member had made these charges against him, he would also charge the Hon. Member with being a mock reformer. For himself he saw that it Was not possible, in the present circumstances of the country, to olaain all the reformers might desire; and, therefore, he had been willing to take those great benefits which this Bill conferred, and give the rest to the wind. Th e ballot certainly formed a part of his theory of Re form; but when he saw a measure introduced full of prac tical relief--a measure calculated to effect a great public good—he thought it right to sacrifice his theoretical views and give up the shadow to take the substance. As for th e Hou. Member for Preston, he courted his hostility, for he could no longer recognise him as a brother reformer. I le was quite ready to make a present of him to the Tori e s, and a lumping pennyworth they would have of hint. —(A laugh.)—He did not accuse the Hon. Member °f having wilfully misrepres2nted hint, but he certainly had mistaken both his words and his conduct, and so be had probably mistaken the opinions and wishes of the People of England.—(Hear, hear.)—He did not say that the Hon. Member had sold himself to the Tories, for he did not think that they would buy the lion. Member, but be seethed to have courted the offer of purchase by giving earnest of what he was worth.—(A laugh.)—He saw in the proposed measure a means of getting a great practical good, and he did not scout it like the Hon. Member. Mr JOHN CAIIIPI3ELL said he concurred with the s entiments that had been expressed by the Hon. Member for Rircudbright on a former evening, and conceived that the conduct of the Hoe. Member for Preston was at least s uspicious. He had no doubt that the Hon. Member had bad those conversations with the people he had described to the House ; but at the same time he had also no doubt tiat the answers which the Han. Member said he had re ce►ved, were brought about by what the lawyers called leading questions. Mr. Alderman WAITH.MAN said that no measure had ever been brought forward which had given such univer 'al satisfaction as the measure brought in by his Majesty's Ministers. He had had an extensive communication on the subject, and could affirm this, in consequence of infot•- mation gathered from a wide surface. Sir H. HARDINGE said he did not believe that the measure of Parliamentary Reform was at all popular in the country, The Hon. Member for Waterford charged the Hon. Member for Preston with having gone over to the Tories. Now, he thought that charge might be re torted on the Hon. Member for Waterford, for he had d ecidedly gone . over to the Whigs.—(Hear.) He did not W►sh then to enter into the question of Reform ; but he must say that, in his opinion, the property of the country WAS strongly ,opposed to it. Mr. KENNEDY was confident the feeling of the country was strongly in favour of Reform. Mr. HUNT trusted, after the attacks which had been made on him, that the HOLM would iisten to him for a short time. He had always admitted that the people had been fervid, more fervid than he had ever seen them in favour of the Bill. Ile had before mentioned that at a late meeting of the Livery, among whom fur many years Reform could not be mentioned, he was very favourably heard as long as he spoke for the Bill ; but the Livery would not hear him when he spoke against it. He had then stated, that if it were passed, it would be sure to en tail on them a perpetual Corn Bill. There was now, however, a re-action, as he had stated before, and he bad received trait very day two deputations from parties in the city of London ; he bad received one the day before from Spitalfields, requesting him to take the chair at a public meeting to consider the Reform Bill, but he had found it necessary to decline the invitation. He had enough to do there to take care of himself, placed as he was between Caledonia and Hibernia. He must deny, however, that he had made any attack on the Hot. 'Wern her for Kircudbright. He had done no such thing, and if he had, he should have been ready to stand by its con sequences. He was ready to face any man either in that [louse or elsewhere. He had only wished tlat the Hen. Member for Kirkcudbright had been present when he brought the petition under the notice of the House, be cause that would have shown him that the people of Scot land were not, as he supposed, unanimous in favour of the Ministerial Bill. He would then turn round to the Hon. Member fer Waterford, who, coming into the House just as he was done speaking, seemed to consider seine of his (Mr. Hunt's) observations as an attack upon him.— le bad not made any attaek—he had said nothing about Paddy. He had alluded to the attack which the lion. Member had yesterday made upon Lite, when Hibernia h a d overwhelmed him with tears. He had, at the same time, been attacked by Caledonia with great heat and fire, and he owned that between Sawney and` Blarney be was entirely overwhelmed. He did not think, when he saw tears on one side and fire on the other, that he had used any inapplicable terms, but very applicable ones. What attack had he made? It was the lion. Member for Wa terford who had attacked him. He would not appeal to that Hon. Member, he would appeal to the whole House--to the consideration of every Member—if he had attacked the Hon. Member. He had not charged the Hon. and Leaf ned Member with any thine ; be had only iminuated, when the lion. and Learned Member was insinuating against the Hon. and Learned Member for 'Weymouth that he was trafficking for seats in Parliament—that he (Mr. O'Connell) was the last man who should accuse an other of trafficking, for he himself had trafficked for the law. Before he had only insinuated, then he would boldly tell him, in the face of the House and the country, that before the close of the last Session of Parliament he (Mr. O'Connell) had trafficked wit's the Marquis of Anglesea for that seat on the Bench which was now occupied by Mr. Doherty. There would have been no agitation in Ireland if Mr. Doherty had net got the situa tion, instead of the Hon. and Learned Member. Mr. Bennett was the go-between in the negociation. The Hon. and Learned Member said, that he (Mr. Hunt) had sold himself to the Tories—let him prove that --(A laugh.) Whatever the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford 'night say about his (Mr. Hunt) being no reformer, and his (Mr. O'Connell) being a real reformer, he knew that he had shown himself a reformer. lie appealed to the House—he would not appeal to the Hon. and Learned Member. Yes, he would appeal to the lion. Member whether he hid a double way of shooting ? He would appeal to the country whether he had expressed one senti ment to-day and another to-morrow? He had always been the advocate of universal suffrage and vote by ballot. The Hon. Member state 1 at Clare that he was in favour of vote by ballot and universal suffrage. It was the Hon. and Learned Member, therefore, that was the shifter and not be. The Hon. and Learned Member had declared at the election for Clare, that he was the advocate of uni versal suffrage and vote by ballot ; and it was therefore the Hon. Member that had shifted his ground. The Hon. and Learned Measlier agreed with the Ministers—so did he to a certain extent—but he was not satisfied that their measure was an unmixed good, and, therefore, he could not say so. He could not change his sun - timents because the Hon. Member for Water ford did. There was a discussion last night on the discontent which existed in Clare. Did that Hon. and Learned Member not think that a great part of the discontent in Clare arose from his having broken his pro mises? He had promised them that when he was in Par liament he would move for a repeal of the Act for dis franchising the forty-shilling freeholders. The Hon. Member had not done any such thing. For his own part he had never consented to disfranchise any man. He must unequivocally say that the people of England, who were running wild in favour of the Reform Bill, had re. covered their senses, and that the seven millions of adults who were not to receive any share of the franchise by this Bill, were no further in favour of it than, as he had before stated, it would make an inroad into thatsystem which was disgraceful to the whole country. With regard to the measure itself, though what he might say if it would be said to be a proof that he had joined the Tories, he must observe that alterations in it had been announced. The Noble Lord who announced them gave one version of those alteration, the Hon. Secretary for Ireland had given another, and the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had given a third which was different from the two others. Probably all these gentlemen meant the same, but front want of consulting with each other, they did not agree in their stories. He begged to ask then, what they didmean ? A petition had been pre sented from Warwick for the Bill—the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. Nothing of that was to be granted —nothing that he contended for, and he, therefore, was not content with the measure. He had attended a meet ing in Somersetshire a fortnight ago, and at the close of that meeting the people had come to an unanimous resolu tion in favour of vote by ballot. The Members for Somer setshire were not then attending their duty in the Nouse, as they had not attended their duty at the meeting, and he would . not, therefore, present the petition. As to his constituents, he was not afraid to meet them—he was not afraid of the threat held out in the Times of this morning, of a dissolution, he did not object to a dissolution, and was not afraid of his seat. If his constituents objected to his conduct, let them only say so, and be would accept the Chiltern Hundreds. What did he gain by sitting there till two o'clock in the morning, or what could he gain ? Neither the Tories nor the Whigs had any thing to give him which he would accept of. If ever he should accept anything, let the House and the country form such an opi nion of him as he had of the Hon. Member for Waterford. Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSON, in reference to the statement on the foriner evening, explained, that he had said, he believed, the whole population of Scotland were in favour of the principle of the Bill, but they did not agree to all the details and provisions of the Bill. Two or three counties with which be was connected had declared in fa vour of the principle of Reform, but they did not like the sweeping nature of the Bill. One county, in which the people had declared in favour of the Bill, objected to re ducing the rate for voting so low as was intended ; but that was not the case with the majority of his constituents, and he believed the majority of the people of Scotland. There was one occasion on which the Hon. Member for Preston must have been, he believed, much misreported. He had been made to say at a meeting of the people in Manchester that " he would let them into a secret which they could not learn from the newspapers, because there was a con spiracy between the Ministers and the Reporters to carry the Bill. The Ministers had openly avowed in the House that they had called in one million of the middle classes to take a share in e.'.e representation, in order to keep down the lower classes.—(Hear, hear, (torn Mr. Hunt.) That they' meant to raise the volunteers again.—(h ear , hear, f ro m Mr. Hunt) —that they might k eep their hands in the pockets of the people, and that time people might not escape their present work."—(hear, bear, from Mr. Hunt.) He was sorry to suppose that the Hon. Member meant to justify such language. Did he mean to say that Ministers ha d avowed that the y introduced a million of voters to keep down and crush the lower classes ? He denied that such language had ever been used in that House by the Ministers. If the Hon. Member avow e d such language, he must justify it. He supposed that it was not a fair report, and he mentioned it, that the Hon. Member might contradict it. He could not conceive anything more mischievous, anything, more likely to hold up that House to the contempt and even to the indignation of the people. The Hun. Member had stated, that the Mi n i s t ers had done nothing to re duce the price of bread or diminish the hours of labour. Could it be expected of any R e f orm Bill that it should reduc e the price of bread or diminish the hours of labour? Ile expected nothing of that kind from Reform. He expected that Reform would make old noth s n o v o e n sooner ) have s _tha(tHHeaoro,seheaar.rei_orewrfaairtshfNuvlouglduanrdoitahnnovte theeenpsuoblflice,piouertsiet., so wasteful, and i t s o o . e t x h p e en n al at v i c o s o been put an end , represented. But debt, had the people been fully and fair heavily taxed, nor have groaned under .. l i . ts present load of o d uld " . di rniniuish the necessity for labour , was absurd• e could to say that Reform would reduce the p rice of bread or not wish his greatest enemy a greater . evil than, vote by to pro pound a plan of Reform of universa l suffrage ant ballot, on the .gr o und that it would make bread cheap and lab.Jur light, and afterwards to meet the disappointed peo plc. Such language nal exitewely ilangelous, and he was astonished that the lion. Member had not disavowed it. Petition was read. On the metio❑ that it be laid on the table. Major MACNAMARA said, that he was o❑ the hust ings at Clare, at the election of 1529, and then the Hon. Member for Waterford had made no such promises as had been stated by the Hon. Member for Preston. An HON. AIEINIBER said, that the petition could afford no evidence of what were the feelings of the people of Scot land as to the Reform Bill ; for it was dated March the 4,th, before the people who had signed it could know the contents of that Bill. Mr. O'CONNELL would not have taken any notice of the observations of the Hon. Member for Preston, had he not introduced the names of the Marquis of Anglesea and Mr. Bennett, and he was quite sure that, as to them, the charge was unfounded. As far as Mr. Bennett was con cerned, he said, unequivocally, that it was totally with felt foundation. As to the Marquis of Anglesea, the ffon. Member probably knew nothing more of pin), than that he had seen him ride about the streets on horse lek ; and be was sure, that as to him the charge was unfounded. As to himself, he would r assert, iLiat since that House had been constituted, a charge cure completely unfounded never had bees mule. The lion. Member must now shift his ground. Mr. HUNT rose to say, that the report alluded to by the lion. Member was a false report. lie had stated no tiiing at Manchester that he had not stated in that House. he had stated in that House, that what fell from the Mem ber for Caine was, that in the opinion of Ministers the Bill was calculated to unite the middle classes to the higher classes and the Government, and keep down the rabble.— (No, no.) That was stated by the Hon. Member for Caine. lie had repeated it, and it was placed on record in the Times. The principle he had stated was, that with the proposed Reform there would he a perpetual corn law, and therefore bread would be no cheaper; but that with a properly Reformed Parliament the Corn Laws would he abolished, and bread would be cheaper. A Re h;rmed Parliament would get rid of the Corn Laws, but a Parliament Reformed by the Bill would make the Corn Laws perpetual. A Parliament Reformed as it ought to be, would make corn cheap, clothing cheap, and labour less. He bad stated that ; and he had stated that with a Reformed Parliament it would not 'be necessary to work sixteen hours a (lay. A Reformed Parliament would re lieve the people from pensions and taxes. A Reformed Parliament would not have voted away the money of the people as the present Parliament did last night when the Civil List was before them ; and therefore he was friendly to Reform of any kind. He meant nothing offensive to either party, but he must say he was neither Whig nor Tory, and he expected nothing, nor would take nothing which it was in the power of either party to give.—(Hear, and a laugh.) lie required no protection from any one, for he hoped, as long as he had a scat in that House, that he should be able to protect himself. With regard to the Hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. O'Connell), he repeated that there had been propositions for a place sent to Lord Anglesea by that Hon. Member, not only once, or twice, or three times ; and he (Mr. Hunt) was satisfied, that it they had been successful, there would have been no agita tion in Ireland. He did not know this of his own know ledge, but he had seen Mr. Bennett, who was acquainted with the whole proceedings. The Member for Waterford called on the Hon. Member for Weymouth to allow his case to be brought before Parliament. Was the Member for Waterford ready to allow these proceedings of his to lie brought before the House ? Let him call for an inquiry, and he (Mr. H.) would be able, lie thought, to produce abundant evidence of the transactions to which he alluded. He could name two Members of that House who were pre sent with him at the time when Mr. Bennett told the whole of the story. The Member for Waterford accused him of a desire to get place ; let him answer now for himself, lie (Mr. Hunt) had never asked fir any thing in his life, nor he never deserved to have anything offered to him ; for, lie repeated, he could not, nor would not, accept it. The petition was then laid on the table. Mr. HUME said, he had a petition to present from 700 shipwrights of the Thames in favour of the Reform Bill. He particularly wished to direct the attention of the House to this petition because it gave an answer to those who asserted that the lower classes were adverse to the Bill. These petitioners declared, that they expected the advantage of good Government from the progress of Reform. They were satisfied that their condition would be improved by it; and he very much doubted whether there were 200,000 persons in the country who did not believe that the Bill would be advantageous, and that a great boon was given to them by the measures of the Go vern tnent. —( Hear. ) Mr. O'CONNELL, on the question that the petition be _ _ laid on the table, begged to say a few words in explana tion—and it would be really few. The Hon. Member fur Preston had charged him with having negotiated with the Government for a place, but he had not pretended to say that he (Mr. O'Connell) was a party to any of these nego.. ciations. If Mr. Bennett said that he (Mr. O'Connell) had any knowledge of, or connection with, negotiations of that kind, all he could say then was, that Mr. Bennett had given utterance to that which was totally untrue. He believed, however, that Mr. Bennett, when he beard of the assertions of the Hon. Member for Preston on this subject—and hear of them he should on the first moment when his residence was ascertained, so that a letter could reach him—he believed, he repeated, that Mr. Bennett would be quite ready to contradict what bad been attributed to him by the Member for Preston. He Mr. (O'Connell) did not believe that Mr. Bennett had made such a statement ; but it he had, then all that could be said was, that he (Mr. Bennett) had calumniated him, and not the Member for Preston. Lord WILLIAM GRAHAM, in presenting a petition against the Reform Bill from the county of Dumbarton, complained of the sweeping nature of the plan proposed by the Government, and observed, that Ministers had drawn their line with a very impolitic hand, for, by the present arrangement, the influence of many counties would be totally absorbed by that of others. The LORD ADVOCATE said the petition presented by the Noble Lord was agreed to at a meeting where there were only thirty-six votes against twenty-five in op position to the Reform Bill. A meeting of a different de scription—a meeting of the landholders, and including a great portion of the wealth and respectability of the county—was about, however, to be convened, and he was confident that the result of their decision would show a very different feeling with respect to the Reform.—(Hear.) Lord STORMONT reminded the Noble Lord that the majority which decided at the late meeting against the Reform Bill, was composed of men who had twice the amount of landed property in the county which could be claimed by the minority.—(Hear.) Mr. CHARLES DOUGLAS said that the county of Dumbarton contained 27,000 inhabitants, according to the census of 1821, and under a new system, of which population was one of the bases, it was certainly entitled to a larger number of Members than that allotted to it by the Bill. Mr. KENNEDY was surprised to bear so much im portance attached to the division in the counties of Scot land. A few gentlemen assembled in a room in Edin burgh, and determined to oppose Reform, presented a pe tion from the city of Edinburgh. Then they get up an other petition, which they called the petition of the county of Edinburgh, and being Magistrates of various counties, they prim, eded afterwards to them, for the purpose of swelling the majorities in favour of petitions of the same description,—(Hear, hear.) He entreated the House to look at the divisions which had taken place in different counties on the subject of the Bill, and to take into their consideration the number of persons who decided the fate of the petitions compared with the real amount of the inhabitants. In Banffshire, where there were 43,000 innabitants, a petition was agreed to against the Bill, at a meeting where there were thirteen persons, four of whom were in favour of Reform, and nine against it. In Ber wickshire, with 33,000 inhabitant;, 33 persons met, and there certainly they were unanimous against the Bill. Then came Dumbartonshire, in which the petition against Reform was carried, as stated by the Lord Advocate, by 36 to 25. He admitted there was a majority of per sons of property against the Reform Bill, but the mem bers of the minority had greater property elsewhere. —( Hear, bear.) Then came the county of Elgin with :31,000 inhabitants, in which there was a meeting of nine persons. Haddington, with 35,000,in which there were eight in favour and four against; and Roxburglishire, in which the petition was carried by 47 to 23. In that county, however, there was a real meeting of the landholders and inhabitants on the next day, and they . were unanimous in favour of the Bill. In fact, wherever the real opinions of the people could be collected, apart from those of the voters fur the rotten borough system of Scotland, they were unanimous in favour of the Bill. It appeared , indeed, to him most extraordinary that, under such a system so many persons of property should be found to vote at county meetings in favour of the plan of Reform. Sir GEORGE MURRAY deprecated the use of such !anguage with reference to the county votes of Scotland. rile Hon. Member, sitting as he did for a set of close . boroughs, h a d b een d ecry i ng the counties of Scotland, an ti applying to them, most improperly, the same language which he would use with respect to the rotten boroughs of England. If the Hon. Member for Preston bad used such language with respect to Scotland, he could have understood him, for it was consistent with his avowed opinions on the subject of universal *Whey.; but it Cer tainly appeared strange that an Hon. Member, well ac quainted with the nature of the mode of election in Scot land, should characterise the county voters in such terms as those used by the Hon. Member for Ayr, and decry pro perty, while he cried up the influence of numbers. — (Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Member, in his attempt to prove that all Scotland was in favour of the Bill, had alluded to the county of Roxburgh. Now he hap• peeed, by accident, to have in his pocket a letter from Sir Thomas Brisb me, the gentleman who presided at the second county meeting, to which the Honourable Member alluded. Great importance had been attached to the opinions of that second meeting, and he would, therefore, with the permission of the House, read a short extract from the letter. Sir Thomas said in it, " When I attended the meeting of the county of Roxburgh to petition in favour of Reform, it was because I believed it to be a Government measure, and befor e the introduction of the Bill which, I must say now, I consider far too sweeping in its provisions."—(Hear.) "[his was a specimen of that reaction among a higher class, which the Member for Preston had already described as having taken place among a lower. That change had t ken place among men of education and property, as well as among the lower classes.—(Hear.) He never denied that some amendment could be made in the system of re presentation in Scotland ; but he was satisf►ed that the plan fur substituting a totally new system would be pro ductive of very injurious consequences. He applied him self particularly to Scotland, because he was better ac quainted with that country than any other. He could say of it with sincerity, that its county representation was as pure and independent as any to be found in England. For himself, he could declare without hesitation, that he was as free to act according to his judgment as any Member of that House; and that when he was solicited to stand for his native county, for which be had now been returned four times, and the honour of representing which he prized more than any be had ever received, he bad expressly stated that he would connect himself with no party, nor bind himself to follow any course of political conduct, save that which appeared best calculated to promote the inte rests of his country. Mr. KENNEDY, in explanation, denied that he had 4!ecried the influence of property, and said he used the term rotten with reference to those voters who possessed franchises for counties without any property whatever in those counties. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH could not help making a few observations in consequence of something that had fallen from his Hon. Friend the Gallant Officer opposite. He thought his Hon. and Gallant Friend (Sir G. Murray) had shown his judgment, and the integrity of that judgment, in admitting that the representation of Scotland was the least tenable part of the Constitution,. though he had not made his admission in such express terms. He was a little surprised at the reference that had been made to Sir Thomas Brisbane's letter, with respect to showing which of the two meetings in the county of Rox burgh were the most numerous. Sir Thomas was a person whom he (Sir James Mackintosh) had a very par ticular respect for, and that he had changed his opinions after he had been for some time Chairman at the second meeting was of no sort of importance in comparison to the value of the two meetings, because Sir Thomas went to preside there, knowing pulectly that the first meeting had been held, and he could in no way have shewn more distinctly his impression that the state of the county had not been taken when the second meeting was called than he did by taking the chair.—(Cries of Ifear, hear.) His firm opinion was that the middle class of persons in Scotland was still decidedly in favou of Parliamentary Reform, and he was persuaded that a meeting of freeholders might be held in Scotland at which twenty acres of land might not he represented, so greatly were the freeholders separated from the landowners. —(Hear, hear,) Scotland at this moment possessed no free Government. The Parliamentary representation was nothing like what it ought to have been. Scotland never had had that security in her Parliamentary representation which justice demanded, and which the present measure was calculated to confer upon her. There was a medium of representation required, neither was universal suffrage advocated by those who wished well to Scotland, or did they desire to have the present system continued. Sir G. CLERK could not conceive how the Hon. Gentleman who just sat down could be found to support a Bill which was, according to what he had stated, to give to Scotland a similar representation to that which Eng land had heretofore possessed, and which was now so much deprecated as it regarded England, but under which both England and Scotland bad prospered. The meetings that had taken place i❑ Scotland against the proposed measure must be admitted to have been attended by persons who could make it convenient to attend, and who were capable of taking part in the discussions. At the meeting which had taken place in favour of the Bill, and which had been called the more numerous meeting, it was well known that only one side could obtain a hear ing. He did not see how any Honourable Member, who was at all acquainted with the state of feeling in Scot land, could deny that by far the greater proportion of landed proprietors were against the measure. As to its being said that the same persons had gone from county to county and called meetings to petition against the measure, he should be glad to know if those who had presented pe titions in favour of Reform had not appeared in 20 or:30 (Effie ent characters. With respect also to the disturbances which had already taken place in Scotland, and particularly , in Edinburgh, in consequ ence of the introduction of this m easu re, he regarded t h o se as discreditable to Edinburgh, and hoped t he Noble Lord o ppo s ite wo u l d take a ll the care in his power to prevent a repetition of the excesses there. He bel i e v e d that almost every indi vidualti , Ing Ico'fastiomfeopui'noiuolnd that t s i e f e t r h e is eaery Bill ' passed, no great individual would enjoy the right of elective franchise. Sir G. WARRENDER had had communication, from som e o f th e best informed persons in Scotland on the sub ject of the proposed measure, and without entering into the question of how many meetings had been called, and of how many persons bad voted at those meetings in favour, and bow many against the Bill, he was happy i n being allowed to take thus the earliest opportunity of avowi ng the degree of change which had taken place in his mind respecting the Bill, as it affected Scotland, nainely, that a popular election must take place there.--(Loud chee rs .) Now, as a Scotelnnan, he frankly avowed that the present system of sending Members to Parliament in Scotland could no longer exist. He begged, how ever, to tell the Noble Lord opposite that he should differ most materially with him upon many important details in the Bill ; most materially should he oppose the disfran- chising of any plac e whatever either in En g land or else - ' where. With many other Scotch gentlemen he mad e con siderable sacrifice in makin g the concession he no w did in respect ttoecallingfor popular elections in Scotland ; b u t h e sacrifice cheerfully, because lie was now per suaded that the benefit of his count r y requ i re d i t . - Colonel BAILEY was decidedly favourable to the mea sure. A great deal had been said in that House respect ing the state of the elective franchise in the counties of Scotland. He begged to say he had a vote in one of the counties, founded not in a right of his property, bi 'v rit l o ' t e ui r mge e i c, h tele e ii,coa t i t y h e e franchise.-_.( l c , h a is o e d . ( H would Hear.) r t . o ) k wh i c h h e himself owned, but in what—he did not know had t.ac : e a r n d e si :l owii property, byth h e e I:ti oble no Lord d re ‘ N v v h h a o te i v ia e d r how exactly. to describe it—in virtue of superiority—a right over the lands of others; as bile in another county, _ ar, . .. . ‘into s , otninittee immediately General GASCOYNE deprecated strongly the vacil lating A e lin th isters intended to , lt,, y opportunit ylras lws t i o . ask what method his M a j es t y ' s question, c u r s e i t ) h e t P ive i ) u,e ir.ip r o r s o sib g le o , witl, r' out some : r h e ' v ad iou h s .'t examination into the,ity tfnocrasduuree deliberation, i sl b t e h r i a ci t t io t n h , e to immediately decide the withoutsr to o be e an callednppnutptonn eard so much, hut un derstood so little. Was that House alterations had been ex plained. Lord JOHN RUSSELL could only say that on Monday he should make the statements that he had previously promised, with m a jesty's Ministers in the Bill • and when the House had hea rd his statem ents, it might what course should thereafter be pursued.—(Hear, hear.). Mr. FANS said when he considered the principle of the Bill great suspicions were The principle of the Bill unavoidably excited in his mind. was traffic in the suffrage of the people of England — to sell one man to buy another, to sell on e country to b uy two t Bill, induce Scotland and Ireland na tionally to s u p port the by adding totheir represen tations by subtraction from the representati ves of England. He considered that alternative a national insult to the United Kingdom. The petition was then ordered to be printed. STEAM NAVIGATION. Lord WM. GRAHAM presented a petition from the Nobility, G en t ry, and I Freeholders of the county of Dum barton, against any tax on steam-boats. MESSAGE FROM THE KING. Lord ALTHORp Majesty, wht.v., was brought do wn a Message front his to the following etr: t read by the Sp ea k er; an d whi c h was " W. R.--His Majesty, effect trusting to the affectionate regard of his faithful Commons, bosh for his Majesty and for the Queen, recommends-to them the immediate consi ilerittiun of a provision for mainlining her 1 1 / a jesty in hei Royal dignity, in case she should sui vivo his Majesty." Oa the motion of Lord ALTHORP, it was ordered that his Majesty's most graciiTs Message should be re ferred to-morrow to the consideration of a Committee of the whole House. LEGAL BILLS. Mr. JOHN CAMPBid,:tite.rexplaining the nature of the measure which he wished to introduce, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law respecting inhe ritance and descent, and to allow parents to succeed as heirs to their children, and collateral relations to succeed ,s heirs to each other, though of the half blood. Sir E. B. SUGDEN seconded th e motion. Sir R. Peel, Sir C. Wetherell. 111 r. Crampton, and Alr. O'Connell, severally expressed their approbation of the principle of the Bill, but rrserved to themselves the right of separately e)nsidering the details, and, if it should seem fit, of ob - yeting to them. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. Mr. CAMPBELL took the opportunity of observing that he would consider it his duty to the people of Eng land to press for the second reading of his Bill to-morrow --the day for which it was fixed. If it were not read a s coed time to-morrow, he coul I not hope to see it passed this Session. . _ An HON. MEsruEr, said that it would be extremely un fair to the Hon. Member for Weymouth (Mr. F. Buxton) if any thing were permitted to take precedence of the sla very question to-morrow. He therefore trusted the Noble Lard (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would use his ut most influence to postpone the second reading of his Bill. Ca SS the shivery question had precedence, it would be impossible to discuss it to-morrow. Lord ALTHORP declared, that urtainly no exertion should be wanting on his part to endeavour to induce the lion. and Learned Member to postpone his motion. lie 'elt himself bound in honour to the Hon. Member for Weymouth to do his best to secure him the precedence on Monday. Mr. CAMPBELL was not aware of the difference in the privilege of Government, and of individual Members; nor did he know whether Government had or had not au thority in such matters.—(None, none.) But he cer tainly did still feel disposed to press for the second reading of the Bill. Leave was then given to bring in a Bill to amend the tw respecting inheritance and descent, and to allow pa rents to succeed as heirs to their children ; and collateral relations to succeed as heirs to each other, though of the' half blood. Also, a Bill to amend the law respecting Dower Estates by courtesy, and the law respecting entiils, remainders, and reversions. Some further conversation ensued as to the propriety of the Bills now proposed to be introduced, taking precedence of the slavery question, when, Mr. CAMPBELL said, that the importance of the mea sure he wished to bring under the consideration of the House was so great, that nothing but force—(A laugh) —should compel him to yield precedence to any other ; and he reminded the Noble Lord near him, that be had been disappointed in his endeavours to procure a night for the discussion. Lord ALTHORP observed, that as the Reform Bill stood for discussion in the early part of next week, it would be impossible for him to promise that any particular day should be affirded to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman ; but as the Honourable and Learned Gentle man was aware that the Government viewed the Bills he wished to introduce in a favourable manner, he might rest assured that they would do what they could to facilitate the otrject he had in view. Mr. CAMPBELL knew so well the candour of the Noble Lord, that after that declaration he should feel per fectly easy at putting himself into the hands of the Noble Lord on this subject. The Bills introduced by the Hon. and Learned Gentle man were then appointed for further consideration on Wed nesday next. CIVIL LIST. Lord ALTHORP moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Civil List Bill. He stated that he had drawn up a clause according to the suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, which he should now lay before the House. Mr. GOULBURN, as far as he was able to observe, did not see any objection to the clause now introduced. With respect to the Bill itself, he must say that it seemed to him to differ from every one that had preceded it. This Bill, for the first time, dissociated the expences of the Civil Government of the couutry from those that were re quired to maintain the dignity of the Crown. When he proposed the Bill uniting both these objects, he bad not done it merely because he desired not to depart from former precedents, though he certainly had no wish to depart from them, but because he thought that the welfare of the country would be best consulted by uniting both. In his opinion both reason and good sense required that union, for he did not think it advisable to present the Monarch of this country to the people for grants merely for his per sonal dignity and comfort, but as dispeusing favours and offices, and dispensing rewards for the performance of the business of the country. As this Bill had presented the King in the former light only, he thought it objectionable. It might, inded, be thought that at first it would be sup posed the Crown had given up 400,0001. of its expendi ture, but in the present state of the information of the public upon this subject, it must be clear that no one in or out of the House could suppose for a moment that such a saving had been effected. The present arrangement of the Civil List bad been made at the desire of those who said they wished to be able to compare the charges of the pre sent Civil List with those of the Civil Lists of former periods, but he believed that when the present Civil List came to be examined, those who had desired the new arrangement would have little reason to view it with apprehension. So far was it from being simplified, that he would venture to assert that it was more complicated and involved than it bad ever been before. In a paper which he unfortunately had not seen till this morning, he found that arrangements bad been made for those sums which had not been provided for i❑ the Civil List ; and that circumstance alone was sufficient to show that no simplification had taken place. He would give some examples of this. In the first in stance, it was intended in the present Civil List that the Crown should retain the power of superintending not only the business but the sports of the country. The Crown, therefore, had the disposal of sums of money for plates to be run for at races, and 4,5001. were annually expended in that manner in order to encourage the breed of horse.. Now that suns was made up in the following manner : The larger our tion, or sum of 2,4001., was taken from the Civil I,BSO/. were to be voted in the Committee of Supply, and 2201. were fixed as a charge upon the con solidated Fund; so that on one item alone, which was, strictly speaking, an item of Royal expenditure, there were no less than three different sources from which the gross amount was drawn. With respect to the Yeoman Guard in Ireland, the arrangement of the payment to that body had been made for the convenience of the House, as the annual discussions on that branch of expenditure had been found highly inconvenient, yet the present Civil List Bill proposed to go back to the old system which had before been given up at the desire of the House itself. The same was the case with respect to the Royal Palaces, in which 4231. were to be voted in the Committee of Supply,, and 1,300/. were charged upon the Consolidated Fund. With respect to charitable donations, the confusion was very great-13,2001. were to be taken from the Civil List, 4,500/. were to be voted in the Committee. of Supply, and 2,250/. were charged upon the Consolidated Fund. He should ask those who were the adVocates of simplifi cation, whether these instances exhibited any improvement in that respect? It might be supposed that the expenses for the offices of the several Orders of the Garter, the Bath, and St. Patrick might be all put upon the same footing —but that was not the case ; for while some were charged upon the Civil List, others were fixed upon the Consolidated Fund. He-thought, therefore, that under these circumstances those who looked for a simplified expenditure would find themselves much mistaken. The real amount of the Civil List was what it bad been before. The provision fur the King was much the same as that which he had before proposed. He felt numerous objections to the pre sent Bill ; but, as he thought that the grant to the Crown ought to he made in as gracious and considerate a manner as possible, he should offer no objection to it ; and there fore, he cordially gave his approbation to the Bill notwith standing its many defects. Mr. HUME said, that if he had expected the Right Hon. Gentleman would have made this charge, be would have brought down papers that would have answered it. The whole of the last Civil List Bill was one mass of in congruities. He wondered that the Right Hon. Gentle man could stand in his place anti defend such a plan of the Civil List, against one which was founded on a plain and intelligible principle. The former mode of conduct ing the public accounts, had been one mass of mystifica tion, an that .be did not wonder the Right Hon. Gentle man should feel regret that the plan was now so altered, that any man out of doors could now understand what had formerly been quite unintelligible to the'greater number of Members of that House. The Right Hon. Gentleman was in a dilemma, for no man could take up the prese:it Bill without knowing what was the amount: of,that branch of the expenditure of the country, but if he had looked at the last Civil List, or at that which had been introduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman in the beginning of last November, he would find that it was impossible to discover any one principle of classification. He (Mr. llume) had never been able to understand the principle of he distinctioa made with respect to various public officers, of whose salaries were charged upon the Civil List, while others were differently provided for. H e was no Ctr from agreeing with the Right Hon. Gentleman as to •iie impropriety of the present principle of the Civil List, hat lie thought it was for the honour and interest of sb e lionarchy, that all the items of the Civil List should be defy laid before the public, so that the people should not ittribute to tl:c King an expenditure with which his Ma- Hty had really nothing to do. Under the old system the public saw 1,057,0001. voted fin the Civil List, and great numbers among them believed that all that amount was quired for the personal expencer of the Monarch, for his ijesty and his household. The change effected was cal culated to put an end to this error. The Right Hon. Gentleman was the only man in the country who thought that the change was not beneficial. The late Pension List was not, as it affected to be, the Pension List of the Crown, but of the creatures of the Ministry, and Pen sions were granted to ladies among the rest, most of which Pensions, he would venture to say, were unknown to his Majesty. He regretted that the present Civil List so far i:nitated the old as to retain the Pension List. He had wished to get rid of it, anal was sorry to say that he had b .en left in a miserable minority on the point. He was, however, so thoroughly convinced of the necessity of removing this Pension List from the other items of the Chit List, that when the opportunity oc curred he should move to reduce the amount of the sum to be granted to his Majesty by the whole amount required fir the , e pensions. He trusted that the House would then show that they wished to conform to the opinion of the country on that point. He thought that the present Government was entitled to the thanks of that House and of the people, for the reduction they had effected in this: hitherto overwhelming amount of money paid for our Em bassies to Foreign Courts. The expenditure on that bead had never been in the least degree diminished during the last two reigns, and the salaries, by being fixed in the Civil List, could not be interfered with by that House, which could not review a grant for the Civil List after it had been once made. He thanked the present Ministers, therefore, for haying so far adopted the recommendation of the Committee, as to put the salaries of ambassadors en a footing that would enable that House to regulate them in future. The salaries of the present Ministers were about to be reduced, and the Ministers would take care that the salaries of other men should be brought under the review of that House, which never could have taken place under the old system. The next item to which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) objerted, was the taking of 100,0001. from the Irish establishment; and it was very true, that if the Civil List of the Right Hon. Gentleman had been carried, the House would have no controul over that part of the expenditure. After that the Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to the hereditary payments in Scotland, 51,000/. ; but he (Mr. Hume) should be glad to know why any of them should he placed out of the cognizance of Parliament': The present arrangement, by which the Civil List beyond the controul of Parliament was reduced front 970,000/. to 510,0001., was a most important advantage to the com munity ; and he hoped, therefore, that the House would sanction the change. He hardly knew how to notice se riously the remarks to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had been driven, when he lamented so bitterly the loss of 1,000/. hitherto given, as he contended, for the encou ragement of the breed of horses. The Civil List, as it formerly existed, was certainly well calculated for the en couragement of the breed of another and an inferior de scription of animal—(" Hear," and laughter)—but, un der the new system, he (Mr. Hume) saw no reason for retaining even the plates for running horses. It was not fit that the public money should be so spent while the people were starving; and if country gentlemen liked to have sport, it ought to be at their own expense. After thus lamenting over the decay in the breed of horses, the Right lion. Gentleman very naturally descended to the Board of Works, and bemoaned the change that was to be made in this department. Mr. GOULBURN interposed to save time : he had not bemoaned the Board of Works, but merely express' d an opinion that the new arrangement would not simplify the matter. His remark regarding the breed of horse, was of the same nature. Mr. HUME was very glad to find that he was mistaken on the point, but really the Right Hon. Gentleman had no very extraordinary talent at rendering himself intelli gible. Perhaps he (Mr. Hume) was in error also as to the rest of the Right Hon. Gentleman's positions ; he had understood him to bemoan the departure from the good old sinecure system of our ancestors ; but, after all, he might be well satisfied with its abolition; and he (Mr. Hume) should sit down in the expectation that the vote in favour of the third reading of the Bill would be unanimous.— ( Hear, and laughter.) Mr. GOULBURN observed, that if Hon. Members would so condescend, it would be easy at any time to ob tain such a triumph as had beem just achieved by the Hon. Member for Middlesex. The cheers of the three or four Hon. Gentlemen round him were certainly an ample re compenee, and worthy of his ambition. He was not aware that he had made any admissio❑ in favour of the al teration in the Civil List, which, among others, was open to the great leading objection, that the money was to be paid out of three funds instead of one. This change was any thing hut a simplification. Lard ALTHORP admitted that the Right Hon. Gen- tleman bad brought forward two or three instances of want of simplicity in the proem plan, but he had stu diously omitted the enormous confusion of his own mis called arrangement. To show the doubt that was thus created, he would mention, that when he (Lord Althorn) • came into office, he did not know the amount of his own salary.---a point upon which, probably the Right Hon. Gentleman was not equally in the dark. He (Lord Al thorp) had thought that it was something more than 3,000/. a year, but to his great surprise he found that it was 5,000/. a year.—(Hear, hear.) The difficulty arose out of the complication of accounts, It bad been thought right to separate from the Civil List all that relatad to the general government of the country, and this point had been gradually approached ever since the passing of Mr. Burke's Bill. The five heads into which the Civil List was divided were these —one, Privy Purse ; two, —.— ..-. . . Salaries of the Household ; three, Expencea of the House hold ; four, Special Services ; five, Pensions ; and what had been done regarding running horses was merely this —to remove from the Civil List the sums paid for this purpose in Ireland and Scotland. It would be for the House to decide whether it would continue this arrangement, for it was one of the benefits of the proposed change, that if it were hereafter found ,disadvantageous , a different course might be adopted. One principle on which Ministers had proceeded was, to let the people see that the enormous sum hitherto supposed to be expended by the King, was not in fact all for the support of Royalty. For this reason, the sum 'or charities in lreland and Scot land had been removed from the Civil List, and the salaries of the Board of Works would also be voted in Supply.-- (Hear.) He did not mean to say that the accounts were now as simple as they might be rendered, but he contended that they were a great improvement upon those which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. G.) had laid upon the tablc. Mr. GOULBURN explained. Sir M. W. RIDLEY observed, that in the country, nothing was less understood than the paymen's for the Civil Lizt ; it was generally supposed that the King bad, hitherto, bad the uncontrouled command of 1,200,000/. per annum. Such, in future, would not be the fact, even with regard to the much smaller:sum of 510,0001. ; but of this he was sure—that the people of England would think the benefit of a Kingly Government cheaply purchased at that expence. Mr. T. COURTENAY gave notice, that after the Bill had been read a third time, and before it was passed, he would move an amendment, to render it more precisely what it pretended to be. Mr. MABERLY was astonished that even the Right; Hon. Gentleman,(Mr. Goolburn) should be so bigotted to his own plan as not to admit at one:: the superior advan tiges of that by which it t 7 a 3 superseded. The Monarch was thus relieved from a degree of odium that hitherto had been most unjustly attached to him. It was true that in the Committee he (Mr. Moberly) had supported the proposition of the lion. Member for Middlesex, for dis continuing pensions even to thereduced amount of 75,0001. upon the Civil List. He still adhered to that opinion ; but he saw, nevertheless, the clear benefits of the other parts of the measure of the Noble Lord (Althorp), and be was resdy also to admit the impossibility of making calculations on this subject with nicety so as to avoid the necessity of a contingent account to the amount of five or even 10,0001. If the present Government had proposed a plan for the Civil List much more objectionable than that in the Bill, he should have felt himself called upon to support them, as the servants of a Monarch who had already done so much fur his people, and who, by the great measure now pending, was about to confer 7 70 of the greatest national blessings since the era of ()r ag: -,,Ceirivaer,ti a. to sNtaondG with the public. j fu...,..) ti its pledges so fully and s'. f'i' l l f :" Y n 'A o e BM ',rue read •a The question wag dm* Ptt‘,2! y_ , .. ...., third time. clause, to provide ' az.' Lord ALTIIORP proposed a so ove w rr e it l n i, ent had ever an?oclorsobiLie r,..dee, j a i, .