The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-09 00:00:00

threeof former s t h e Constitution was supposed to consist tve, , co -equal and independent bodies, each of which °t ii; ch ecit on the other—each of which was a controul Pee -° , t hers and that no measure of the Legislature could Wittout the concurrence of all three. No measure 110 4 e llh eeonee a law, whether it was for good or for evil ; 4arsure was binding on the people which had not the thil'oneurrence of these three independent bodies. ln car e "Y Were the efforts of the reformers directed to 4 1 , 1 °M0 the Constitution. But he defied any man to (.41 1 t a Constitution less capable of being carried into ex allti4l4) and, if carried into execution, less capable of.p!-o eaa haeneral welfare ; but the answer to the supposition et,' it never was even attempted to be carried so into elite), ex`i el to a theory. The to te 1, , 0 (List by some men bigoted e tre ° had actually carried our Constitution into effect I ^ 14 4 t men bigoted to a theory. They were fe ' r - lito were convinced that the people were nut made madtier '''Y of Government, hut that Government was aep e d, e ur . t he 9eople • and, according as their interests de eme-e it, ant i according to circumstances, the Statesmen k it :" part of the Constitution yield to another ; one heistich PP!) , the d e fi c i enc i es of another ; one part ( ] othat se i ce ryas ne cessary to the happineos of the others, and kopi Pt th em all m ov i ng toget h er i n harmony, giving the see of fi xe d and the Pro tection f or t h e i r lib erty ; an d f ur t h e i r property dir ge stable laws.—(Cheers.) Here of y Power had a natural tendency to fall into the hands a littl e capable of using it efficaciously ; men gene t: : e t f fvshl e talents, anti whose energies were lulled to I ,, ° " e da , c they hed nothing to seek. The House of according to the theory of the Noble Lord's e'erti,-urt's was to consist of an el e cted body, always c h a nge e". tav ing no att ac h ment to sta bi l i ty—compose d , o f ne t ro ;), of rn en the most ambitious—of men the most en men of the grea t es t t a l en ts a nd intelligence 14 ' ' Q uttd in the age and in the country ; and that was, tl,l"te4',Y, t 0 be the result of the new elections, and this ", 5 h e a pure House of Commons. He should be e a 4 ,l `,.° know from the Noble Lord, if this would not f1 e , 11 1.1 Pure democracy ? He should be glad . to learn eo th l e Noble Lord who had introduced the 8111, w lere oan fi nd a single example in history—a single in- Pat t c i e te h aviog the guarantee of experience, of any body, dtriVit:teluocratie, elected by the great body of the people, 41 0144 g its ex i stence from the popular to ." glad to learn wher e such a body voice he its had existe d ago a ection w i t h hered i tary Monarchy and the ve l'aeh T here were no such examples, except such as di rect t them a serious lesson.—(Cheers.)—Let . them ugh 4ri t,, thei r eyes t o th e new C onst i tu ti ons formed the bouts °-n g kingdoms—let them look to the Chamber of tf "' Prarice,an(lthey would find that the Chamber t o b eer, never rejected a measure which had been agreed t ir e aChamber of Deputies, when the latter body did , 44 ' N di ately question the utility of the other Chandser. Lord s -a :P . —Did the House of Commons and the . House . of t differ the dispute went off quietly ; but it was no 14 ( !,', 41 e ' e- In France the result of the Chamber of to c e ' ri r . 'eiectin g a measure was that the other Chamber ins ttistia)teY inquired if the Chamber of Peers ought to ' ll le 's--(Ch eers•)—lf such was the result in France, we not find similar . dangers here? These appeared p ttt a r , , at !east, the kind of dangers which we 'nigh ex liewrimi this untried Bill, which had no experience to da"but which we , were warned against by the } he nets in another country. They blinded their eyes to le-tt!attonal operation, which experience had shown to te pee: result result of such ' a species of Government, and such th e ., l es of law in a neighbouring country ; and blinding hi d ' 'Yes to that, they had no experience whatever to 41t e the m. - -(Cheers.) It appeared to him that the les t a i lt e t, Miportant as it was, had not been adequately e tl o , h e et ,n u the speeches of the Hon. and Right Hon. ko„ -e a "posite. The Noble Lord indeed said that he th ey - "' to taerifice the rotten boroughs, anti admitted that Pr: D „, We re vested rights, but he said that they were not Pt ' tY but a trust, and because they were a trust and not litt — e rt Y , lie mea n t to g i ve no compensation fur them. He s tep --(It know wh ere t h e N o bl e L or d d rew hi s w i s d om 1 he talked of sacrificing any kind of property or anya°Yki" trust. ; What, he wished to ask, toes property o 4 t but a t rust •), All property was of the nature of % at, and f or that. reason he would not s acr ifi ce Old 'l4l(tGa"son that gr oun d he would protect all property— 'fib t hat ground the Noble Lord, in sacrificing the ttrie,n boroughs, might find that he was not giving N V to Woburn. —(Cheers.) The only ground why of the should be protected was ? that it was for the good Pei" community and on the same ground he was pre l'otm,-,,t°,,defend all the Ousts it was proposed to destroy th . th '", o se truets destroyed, was for bins a ground of e He regretted very much retted ve much that Ministers til ' et. old h tittles oave bro ught forward a measure of that kind in agitetion, when there was a sort of Na e.hol olavention sittin throughout the land ; when the t able country was agitated ; and when it was not impro t'l • that by stetting the example of confiscating trusts, )Uti 11:00ight le a d to a- confiscation of property.—(Cheers.) 'd content himself with calling the measure re o- o a f, d dangerous. It was not a measure of re has or what it was about to create never existed ; f o "t a m easure of conservation ; it was not a altbe r repairi ng the structure; it was a measure t ea r in 411tiv. f " o adation s o f the Constitution, and laying them GRAHAM was aware of the difficulty of g the H ouse after five nights ' de b ate, and he I llnil ' . lti ta n t a eut..then h ave risen had he not been led to believe ass tan , tmin ation was ab ou t t o t a k e place without any should not have thought it necessary to " th e 'k arguMents of the Right Hon. Gentleman ope 1° 11; 644 the Right Hon. Gentleman not alluded per hit'', and had he not felt unwilling to allow a d ~that great magnitude and importance to be j a ','ee, t he °' Without stating his opinion.. .In the first 1 ; 4 th must state, that the present Ministry had not 11 0 e "rosele e implied by the Right 4 . t ar s open to the charge Pti 0 6 , 41 . th e 44et ( . 11' Robert Peel) of cowering to taunts rhe a" f:?position side of the House. They had never ' 4 ' 4 4 114, i :1 4 i the responsibility of bringing forward the en at A I " . er On that or any preceding day. He might p 41 qi ta kivate opinion for advocating that partial ai folt,lt at r l Y k ßef°l. ?k, adopted by the House of Commons, ,but Per In the cases of Penrhyn and East Ret ell d conceiving that - Reform inadequate, and that )I .4l (f ee ti d o e t " 4 ,searehing substantial Reform, he, for one, eh r a egr .. e_t tlse Course . . th . at was then finally pursued. of a disposition to avoid void responsibility, pf ft , h ad. no_ wig o u! grace from the ght lion. Baronet, the d the ground taken up by the Duke i g l it b uo, the head of the Adininistration of which liO n or eg o , • Haronet formed a part. Duke of the contended that it was not the universal wish e ta p eople that e e l` Lo effect Reform, and that to suppose . so :11 4t our Or error. The Noble Duke also laid it down trikt presenter' system of representation was so perfect th ' at ll i t of inan could not conceive anthing more so, Pe: a re) k e it ',mild not fancy anything more excellent.— Pl e that he Right Hon. B ironet bad departed from this ] tit ee t 'ote:„," had relinquished this high ground anti state( "glit • - """ore of Reform in the representation, not 4 the responsibility of Ministers, but on that ate N le s.'ner P er s?o--(11,•ar)—on the . responsibility . of are{ether in his individual capacity—that, to such a Would give a reluctant consent. The Right to t ,i 4 d sue - i'' must regret, he thought, that lie brought oot d e l 4 e harge_(llear, bear)—when he htins h c 't Hon den that there was a necessity for Reform, t . ~ re aee bet Gentleman admitting that there was no dif- It t e e , a oly d . w een them as to principle but as to degree. th, h 4,1 I,eusBion could be, whether the step the Mini ort, ta,ken was too great ; and as it was admitted t t o te o k rto was necessary, ry, this step could . only be thepa thextensive. So far from shrinking from re N k r ,Nur ,„„ r e was no responsibility connected with ;tj a , hice e th l a ' ri lc h, he, as an individual had .. not incurred. 's ty, e IL, incurred the responsibility of not delay ad' at; e one dav, or one hour longer than neves °et', step i re t hough it unfair not to bring the measure geration with the least possible delay.—(Hear, ti 4 h ttee elf a tt f ar as lie was concerned, he could say both 41. 1 c1i 0 , his colleagues, that they had not lost a tor4tlo.ebringing forward , the measure. He . was 11 4. th eir ti et that they conceived it was not consistent k;eeDeth duty the tri e 'rehi e Bleats, or Wh at public to bring forward any miser- Mr. Burke emphatically called miser ,' ea ~exPediente--half measures ; neither had they Vt 4 "itrl" 4 ' ec t course for averting the honest and just °I th e People's demand for Reform.. It was l'tte '"en t with the pledges they had given on rtes °trice, that they should nicely balance th, the 4 °f redeem' Ve t ing the pledges they had made t Oh t , i trely „ ,Or that they should devise ,he ON did t,'llol legally to redeem those pledges. f for delay Y think that any justification could be teatthooliehad before r them ' the example ti ts see IPation—they saw the benefit of early tiv a, is t,ha:laying to concede such claim when r.e -I'44' ' I 4 t " ti ' t irnat Ir power, only led to more extensive kl It ti4 in , e y to the necessity of making conces td j ute .nerent in the nature of things that the re t"re claims te (I I th o c ( k en eG. to granting claims that at first % I . "'elit i t j n ". (l of. On that ground the Ministers Otik' to ~ ,neir duty—first, to introduce a measure ; dot h take r cale that it should be such a measure as a~ i tp deiliegaerimit,ion of their pledge, and would satisfy b le tly tor Reform ; and, thirdly, it was their tiele ga4 Measure before the House with the least The Government and the country, be be lieved, were of opinion, that the measure Was calculated to satisfy all moderate men.—(Cheers and loud laughter.) There were, he knew, Ulfra Tories and Ultra Reformers who would not be satisfied ; but he was convinced that moderate men of all parties would be satisfied with it.— (Hear, and laughter.)—The measure would, he believed, remove all just ground of complaint and removing all just ground of complaint, was the principal reason why it was proposed by an Administration deter mined to stand by the Monarchy and support the Govern ment, being convinced that the best means of reasoning was to satisfy the people. The measure was not the offspring of innovation, nor did he deem it inconsistent with the institutions of the country. He had something to regret in the asperity with which the Right lion. Gentleman had alluded to tome circumstances in his poli tical conduct. The Right Hon. Gentleman had referred to the resolution he had moved last Session, to have a return of the emoluments of the Privy Council laid before the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that return was one cause of the great dissatisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) Ile was, not disposed to shrink from the responsibility of that motion. His conduct on that occasion was before the House and the country. He charged the Administration with repeatedly making great public professions of eco nomy and retrenchment—(Cheers from the Opposition) —and he now had charged them with carrying those pro• fessions only into execution in the lower grade of the pub lic service., while they left the higher offices untouched : and he wished to have some returns to show the outline of the manner in which th -v carried retrenchment into effect. His motion was, then, to obtain documents ta show the salaries of offices held by the members of the Privy Coun cil, in order to make it appear that one of the Members of his Majesty's Cabinet held five great offices, and several of them held more than one, His motion was met by an amendment, by the Right lion. Member for Armagh, for a return of all salaries above one thousand pounds, and those extraordinary returns were accordingly laid on the table which had astonished the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman had made an allusion to his salary as First Lord of the Admiralty : he should not have been asto nished at that remark, if it had come from the Hon. Ba ronet, lately a Lord of the Admiralty ; but it was unwor thy of the Right [ion. Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gentleman was one of the Members of that Committee to which the salaries of the officers of Government had referred, and it was competent for the Right Hon. Gentle man to propose to reduce the salary of the First Lord of the Admiralty—(" No, no !" from the Opposition, " Hear, hear !" front the Ministerial side)—and if the Right Hon. Gentleman gave that advice, and the Committ ee adopted it, he could only assure the House that the Mi nisters would not defend the salary so pertinaciously as the Right Hon. Gentleman and his friends defended the super annuation of the sons of two Cabinet Ministers.—(Hear.) He turned then willingly from such topics as these, which lie wished it might be understood were not of his seeking ; but as they heel been adverted to, he could not overlook them. He might have taken no notice of them coming from any body else but the Right Hon. Gentleman, but felt himself called on to reply to them coming from him, and looked upon them as intended to stigmatize him for his conduct. He would then come to the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman, who strongly reprehended the measure, because it severed the lower classes of the country from the franchise which they haul exercised, much to the advantage of the country. lie would venture to oppose to the as.ertion of the Right lion. Gentleman the broad principle laid down by a gentleman whom he (Sir James Graham) considered as the highest authority on constitu tional law. Mr. Fox laid down that that was the best system of representation which secured to a country the I irgest number of persons whose circumstances were in dependent ; and that system, on the contrary, was the worst which embraced the largest number of von rs, who, from being in independent circumstances, were in capable of deliberation. lie would not refer to what had been said by the Right Hon. Baronet, in the debate in 1829, relative to the forty-shilling freeholders; but he would refer to opinions given by the Right Hon. Baronet in 1525, in the case of Penryn. The Right lion. Baronet then laid down a doctrine, to which be gave his cordial assent. Sir James Graham then quoted a short passage from the speedo of Sir Robert Peel on that occasion, in which the latter Right Hon. Baronet said, this franchise was not a property, but a public trust given for the benefit of the people ; and it might be withheld or withdrawn, if there was any violation of the trust.— (Cheers from the Opposition side.) He understood the distinction drawn between the present case and that of the violation of a trust ; but if there were such a violation in the case of Penryn, there was more in the case of the forty-shilling freeholders. There was no disposition ever to refer to any former misconduct on their part. One Hon. Gentleman, indeed, said that it had been given in evidence before a Committee of that House, that they had been driven up to the hustings like oxen, and did not know for whom they were to vote. But between 1828 and 1829 an election had taken place which proved that the fortyashilling freeholders had emancipated themselves from this thraldom, and were capable of exercising a deli berate judgment. The Right lion. Gentleman, in the able speech he made on the occasion of disfranchising the forty-shilling freeholders, quoted a passage from Nathaniel Bacon, in which lie cordialty agreed. Bacon was speaks ing of the effect of that Statute of Henry VI., by which the right of election, that before was vested in the whole commonalty, was restricted to the possessors of freeholds of forty shillings cable. Bacon said, as quoted by the Right Hon. Baronet—" Thus the manner of election is re tained, but the electors are more considerable ; for hitherto any min of English blood promiscuously had a right to give or receive a vote, although his residence was over the wide world. Thus the freemen yielded up their liberty of election to the fteeholders, possibly not know ing what they did. This change was no less good than great. For, first, those times were no times for any great measure of civility. The preface of the statute shows that the meanest held himself as good a man as the greateet iii this country, and this tended to parties, tumults, and bloodshed. Secondly, where the multitude prevail, the meaner sort are upon the upper hand, and these (generally ignorant) cannot judge of persons nor times; but being for the most part led by faction or-affec tion, rather than by right understanding, made their elec tions, and thereby the General Council of the nation less generous and noble. Thirdly, there is no leas equity in the change than policy. For what can lie more reason able than that those men should have their votes in elec tion of the Public Council, whose estates are chargeable with the public taxes and assessments ? But, above all the rest, this advancing of the freeholders in this manner of election was beneficial to the freemen of England, although, perchance, they considered not thereof; and this will more clearly appear by the consideration of these three particulars. First, it abated the power of the Lords and great men, who held the inferior sort at their discretion, and much of what they had by their vote. Second, it rendered the body of the people wore brave for advancing of the freeholder above the freemen, raised . the spirit of the meaner sorts to public regard, and with an ambition to aspire to become freeholder. And thus the mealier sort, sifted to the very bran, become less considerable and more subject to the coercive power, when the freeholder, , now advanced in some degree, becomes more careful to maintain correspondence with the laws ; and thirdly, by this means the law makes a separation of the inferior clergy and cloistered people within this service, wherein they might serve particular ends much and Rome more." In this opinion he agreed, conceiving that to restrict the franchise on this principle was to make the people more free. Applying himself to the question of the charters, he was supported by the authority of Mr. Burke, when he declared an opinion, that charters were procured for a particular purpose, and to uphold the due exe cution of that purpose the Government was warranted in preserving them ; but when they ceased to fulfil those purposes for which they were intended, then their privileges were forfeited, and it was in the power of the Government to take back the power which it gave.—(Hear.) The question which they had to consider, with reference to the charters and to the other parts of the measure, was not whether they had the power to make these changes, but whether it was expe dient to do so; and he confessed, after the fullest conside ration, lie was satisfied that the time was come when the wishes of the people, with respect to these, could not longer be resisted. He now proceeded to the other branch of the subject—the nature and extent of the power exer cised by the Peers and man of property in the return of Members to that House, and the insignificance of the places through which these returns were generally made. In a question of that kind, touching so nearl y the compo sition of the House, it would not , perhaps, be very agree able to the Members if he alluded too closely to the rotten boroughs which exercised such an undue influence; and it might, perhaps, be sufficient to state, that he found there were, under the present system, twenty-eight places returning fifty-six Members to that House, although the population of those places did not in any case amount to one thousand pesrons ; and forty-eight boroughs returning ninety-seven Members, although their population was not in any instance above one hundred persons.—(Hear.) One hundred and fifteen boroughs returned Members to that House at the present moment, although the number of -titers in no instance were above two hundred.—(Hear, hear.) From the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentle man, the Member for Boroughbridge, and some other Members, it would seem to be their opinion) that every rich Peer was almost entitled, as a matter of right, to have a representative in that House. This might be very con. genial to their feelings, but it was not very agreeable to the people, nor did it suit well with their conceptions of a House of Commons respecting the people. Now, what was really the case, with reference to those boroughs? He found that 1•1-) Peers and Commoners return 173 Mem bers as their own nomination ; and that sixteen Peers re turn seventy-six Members to that House—being about, on an average, five Members for each Peer.—(Hear.) This was a state of things which, he contended, must be altered and thes e were t h e ' evils to which the Reform was to b e applied. The lion. Member for Callington (Baring,) in his other objections to the plan, had intimated his fear, that merchants and bankers, and gentlemen connected with trade, would not possess, under the new aye tern, those facilities for entering Parliament which they had at present. Now what was the case at this moment? He found that the Members for Tewkesbury and for Maid- stone, one of the Members for Liverpool, fur Worcester, ' and Chichester, and Newcastle, and Col k, and the two Members for Bristol—all these, and many others he could name, were populous places, open to the influence of the commercial interest, and to men in whom they reposed confidence purely on account of their high character and reputation for knowledge and integrity, and altogether in dependent of any influence of rank or overwhelming pro perty.—(Hear.) The question, in truth, between the Government and their opponents, at the present moment, wan, whether the Members of th'it House should continu e to be the representatives of constituents—the people—or whether they were to continue to be, as at present, the representatives merely of their own property, of the pa tron who grants them the nomination? Members re turned in that manner could not truly repre-ent the :inte rests of the people.—( Hear, hear, and yes.) He repeated they could not. They might, and probably did, do their duty to a certain extent, from a sense of private honour, but they had no immediate and pressing sense of duty, such as that which must be felt by those who were re sponsible for their conduct to a large and respectable body of constituents.—(Hear, hear.) They might, be re peated, be influenced in their conduct. by a high sense of honour, but he feared very much that they frequently carried that sense of honour much higher to their pa trons than to the people. The Hon. Member for Ald borough (Mr. Croker) had commented on the expres sion of his Noble Friend (Lord Tavistock) when he said that the Duke of Bedford would never again use his interest to influence the returns for the borough of Tavi stock. Now, his Noble Friend did not say that the Duke of Bedford would net exercise his legitimate influence with his tenantry, but that he would never again be able to con trend the representation in the same manner as he did now, when there were only 27 voters. The g' misfor tune of the present borough system was, that it mattered little whether property was possessed by a good or a bad man—by the best or the worst of landlords ; the influence in returning Members for the borough where property pre vailed was just the same in either case ; but by the re formed system, character would begin to he necessary, residence would be necessary, and men of property, de nuded of that undue power which they possessed at pre sent, would he compelled to rely more on the exercise of those qualities which would entitle them to the favour of the people.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Callington (Baring) had commented much on the nature of the line to he drawn by the Noble Lord (Russell) for the disfran chisement of the borough, and he had asked who drew that line. He (Sir J. Graham) had no hesitation in saying at once, that his Majesty's Ministers drew the line ; anti he would say further, that if they could, in such a matter, be obnoxious to the suspicions insinuated with respect to the disfranchisement of a peculiar class of boroughs, that Mi nisters were not only unit to hold their stations, but even unfit, as men of honour, to bold a station in the society of gentlemen. With respect to the objections which hail been taken to the making population the basis of represen tation, they bad the authority of Mr. Pitt for such a course, both at the time when he made his proposition with respect to Reform in 1785, and subsequently, when he carried into effect the Union with Ire land. In introducing his measure of Reform in 1785, Mr. Pitt is reported to have used the following expres sions :—" Gentlemen had undoubtedly read, that of the boroughs which used formerly to send Members to Parlia ment, seventy-two haul been disfranchised, that was to say, that the Crown had ceased to summon them at general elections to return burgesses to the House of Com mons. After the restoration thirty-six of these boroughs petitioned Parliament to be restored to the exercise of their ancient franchise; their prayer was granted, and to this hour they enjoy it ; but the other thirty-six not having presented any petition on the subject, had not re ceived their lost franchise. Upon this he would be bold to say that, considering the restoration of the former, and the continued deprivation of the latter, the spirit of the Constitution had been grossly violated, if it was true (but which he denied) that the extension to one set of boroughs of the franchise, and the resumption of it from others, was a violation of the Constitution. For if the numbers could not originally have been constitutionally increased, so they could not constitutionally have been di minished. But having been once diminished, to restore them might by some be said to make an innovation ; and if the Parliament had any authority to restore the fran chise, the principle of restoration ought to have been ex tended to the seventy-two boroughs, and not confined to one-half of them. Here, thin, it appeared manifest that the whole was governed by a principle which mi litated directly against the modern doctrine, that to do what had been constantly done for ages, by the wisest of our ancestors, was to innovate upon the Constitution. In these early periods, such was the nature of representation, that as one borough de cayed and another rose, the one was abolished, and the other invested with the right. The alterations were not made by principle ; they did not arise from any fixed rule laid down, and invariably pursued ; but they were founded in that notion which gave the discretion try power to the Crown, viz. that the principal places, and not the decayed boroughs, should be called upon to exercise the right of election." These were the opinions of Mr. Pitt ; and all the regulations with respect to the distribution of the parishes in Ireland were regulated on the principle, that population and importance were to confer the right of re turning Members. Passing now to the question of the propriety of the rule adopted with respect to population, he admitted at once that the census of 1821 was defec tive ; but it was the best that they possessed, and even its errors were favourable to the extension of the franchise._... It was contended, however, that Caine, Tavistock, and Knaresborough, should have been disfranchised ; but if they had determined to abandon the line that they drew with respect to 2,000 inhabitants, they must have dis franchised a vast number of independent boroughs, against some of which no complaint could be made. If they had disfranchised Caine, eleven of the boroughs must also have been sacrificed because their population was inferior to that burgh. These were Mahon, Harwich, Newport (in the Isle of Wight), Andover, Grantham, Devizes, Hert ford, St. Albans, Bridgenorth, Pomfret, and Dart mouth. If they had disfranchised Knaresborough, th ey must also have sacrificed Ripon, Horsham, Chichester,e Peterborough, ttien: e treuatidp, t s.nns e , eltirc r ,:iorri b p:at ou o tai ifeend r ndtoel Shrewsbury,i:suit itwha g e,oo,en h l yoddtk , byr.:_aTe—Kafiwhvitn( h eei taoHbos r nrnee i ibesefiolsi —(Hear, xteboirreni:of:, aaiel(u, Knaresborough igi h egheet al itd u e,gtirso r ilw.v.dstl c t. nwn , sf at:::nv,‘s-dadrauti T i e ereresta n thileridle ' el ile k t:eapisi Tewkesbury-, baii t iresutpmae(da:dunr,:s ß i eiat hf:rt a atoh aat!c rl yney)d.r : , they standard. had They done h s a u d takenwth thethe In Tl; . y . : ot w o e i r o e , o a b t l i i d g e h d e m uo dn i a tdt e cs r d f oarbnyAd the f o fie r rx o ri u eo g dg b (Croker) had a spoken nge minimum of loss and difficulty in effecting the change.-- The co T ht. it t , e he eHaetofftnee.ent pounds, Member ttohetis,,t!ntdaxarrdetoofrif,rsanto nhe,titieoo,whhaodlere6foerrbeorougths.esteo r b eturr, f prove that the calculations of the d Go to ver i nment were . a c Teseadr: whilehe r there o Tr t e he o nt10yw10,4071.1 shohuesffieseirdateidi nt.ettreeensettp,itsoe that N and pounds d n i f l o ie tu f r o d u eo/ I p is uruti ( on of between s that h that House, Sheffield ther e h a n: l e r o e ~ e, houses shouses trh:tatte dyne; value e Hear.)— ten pounds; than 4, f e Ow with r a o u p g o the i four thousand, the houses rated at ten pounds is were 6,323 while in the parish of Marylebone, which s w n h ati o l l l e erl o m f ro tl u je ghs G , repre sented, he found 10 , 4 2 1 houses rent e d above that sum..— m.— (H ear , hear, bear)—being nearly one-third more than a the 47 berughs.—( Hear, hear, hear. )__The non Member for Bi:roughbridg e h a d c h arged the Government with endeavouring to carry the question by agitation • but he believed the original cau se o f that agitation was to be found, not in the Government, but by the refusal to Birmingham of the representati, n which . she claimed from the justice of that House. He was bound • to say, that he conceded Reform, not on account of any excite ment which was abroad, but at the same time he could not overlook the considerations of safety which must pre sent themselves to every rational mind ; nor could he for get that needlessly protracted resistance alw a y s en d s i n such ca s e s in humiliatingconcession. He did not, there fore, overlook the agitation of the public mind, but he was not overborne by it; and he was willing to giveßeform frankly and freely, because he was convinced of its justice as much as of its necessity.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was said that the cry for Reform was the old story, and that if not attended to, it would exhaust itself. But what said the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) on that sub. jest, when the same objection was urged with respect to the C.tholic Relief Bill ? He declared that it was be cause it was the old story, and because it had been so fre quently urged on their attention, but he thought they ought to erant Emancipation, and set the question at rest for ever. ( Hear.) The Hon. Msmber for Ca lington said, however, that it they waited a little while and made few concessions they might go on for some time longer; but was it not better, he would ask, to change at once, and safely, that which all admitted should he changed, and which they also admitted could not much longer he preserved.—(Hear.) He well remembered, during the late war, to have seen a British frigate undergoing a process which was common in the navy. Her keel was damaged, and it was thought ex pedient to examine it. No dry dock being at hand, it was found necessary to heave her down. Her sails were un bent, her streamers were lowered, I er thunder was silenced, Ler masts were struck, and she lay a vast hulk on the water—no inauspicious enaldem, he hoped, of what Bri tain would be, stripped of her glories. By the aid of me chanical power, a cable attached to a lever Waq brought to bear upon her, and she lay balancing on the water, nearly on her beam ends. Her experienced Commander did nut disdain lo superintend the operation. Desirous to biing her somewhat nearer the surface, and thinking he might safely order another turn of the capstan, he gave the word—when the vessel heeled, filled, and for ever disap peared.—(Dear, hear.) Now let the House understand his application. The Hon. Member for Aldborough had said, that when the waters subsided, the public vessel would right herself. He (Sir J. Graham) apprehended that when the waters of bitterness and strife had risen to a certain height, when the tide of discontent was full, a slight wave, raised by a passing gust, might, at a moment when it was least ;expected, overwhelm and swamp the vessel of state.—( Hear, hear.) Adverting to the threat thrown cut last night by a Noble Marquis, that unless Go vernment adopt the course which was conformable to the Noble Marquis's opinion, he would take the eneans which the forms of Parliament allowed him of stopping the supplies, and disbanding the army ; he (Sir James Graham) expressed his conviction that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would not concur with the Noble Marquis in that line of conduct. The Right Honourable Gentleman, in speaking of the condition of Ireland, had admitted that in his opinion civil war would be a less evil than the repeal of the Union ; but he had aided some thing as '- darkly shadowed forth," which he (Sir J. Graham) did not entirely comprehend. It had been said that, to accede to the proposed measure, would be to en danger the Constitution. He owned that he could not so read the history of his country as to coincide in that opinion. He could not think that the Constitution would he endangered by acceding to the wishes of a loyal people. The stability of the throne, the stability of the institu tions of the country, could not, in his opinion, be en dangered by any such concession. The Hon. Baronet here alluded to the declaration of Charles the Second, on ascending the throne of his ancestors, after his long and bitter exclusion ; in which he stated the, during that ex clusion, the first consideration by which he had regu lated his actions was, his conception of what the opinions of Parliament would be respecting them. Lord Claren don had advised ihat Prince to keep on gond terms with his Parliament, and not to attend to the whimsical fancies of foreign countries.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) What was meant by that was, the conduct of foreign despots, who attempted to put down the opinions of the great bulk of the people.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—When the public opinion was strongly expressed, there were but two ways of dealing with it—by concession, or by force. In all cases, where it was practicable, the former was to be preferred, and more especild y when, in the words of Clarendon, in his advice to Charles the Second, " the true interests of the nation were co-equal with the greatness and happiness of the Monarch." With respect to Parliamentary Reform, he (Sir James Graham) al lowed that he by no means believed it to be a panacea for all the evils under which the country laboured. But when the valuable p art of the people had a Parliament mainly chosen by themselves, and felt a confidence that all would be done for their interests which it was possible to do for them, they would, even under the same circumstances, be much more patient and peaceable than at present. On these grounds he warmly supported his Noble Friend's Bill. Sir PEEL sues sure the House would not be sur prised at. the anxiety he felt, after what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, to explain. He knew he had no right to say a single word in reply, for he had been heard with great indulgence and at great length on a former evening, and he had also contributed his share to the debate of last night. The Right Hon. Baronet had accused hint of personal asperity. He trusted he was not generally optat to such a charge; but the question in these matters was, who was the first to introduce criminatery expressions. The Right Hon. Baronet had accused biro of being enamoured of potwallopers. Now he never said that he was enamoured of potwalloppers, and if the opinion lay between 101. freeholders anti potwalloppers, he might ( p i j e: t h ra aps prefer nehiseinent the of t l h O e l p . ot v ,, us; but a teL ppei he sandti tibj es e c c , t , e t- d ai t , o the d-1 ,)t voters, because that would destroy the existing links be tween the lower and the higher ranks. The Right Hon. Baronet bad alluded to him as being inclined to obstruct the Government, but he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that it would be impossible for him to take any part in any attempt ;to obstruct the Government. He considered himself to have as much right to act on his own conviction of what would be the result of the rejection of the present measure as the Hon. Gentlemen opposite did when they opposed the proposition of the Noble Lord (Blandford) last year, and now showed no disposition to accede to the wishes of the petitioners to that House, with regard to the ballot. Mr. T. LEFROY said it might be inferred from the language of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham), who had stated that one of the reasons for bringing the prasert measure before the House was to redeem a pledge which he and his colleagues had made to their Sovereign that the gracious and constitutional Monarch of England had been metamorphosed into a citizen King, and had re quired a pledge from his Ministry to propose a searching measure of Reform. But he (Mr. Lefroy) believed, from statements made in another place, that his Majesty had nothing to do with the origin of the measure, which had emanated solely from the Ministers. Irk, however, gave them the credit of having no wish to subvert the Consti tution. He would not now discuss the question whether the el e ctive franchise ought to be considered purely as a public trust ; but if it were so considered, the power of that House to deal with the franchise was also a public trust which should be most cautiously exercised. Was the proposed measure agreeable to the Constitution? If not, it should be regarded with the utmost jealousy by the House. Now he called the attention of Hon. Gentlemen to that part of the measure which weut to the disfran chisement of the boroughs. By the Constitution that House was composed of knights, burgesses, and citizens ; and he contended that it was not according to the prin ciples of the Constitution to disturb that balance. Be-- sides, if the balance in that House were destroyed, the next step would he to destroy the balance of the whole Legislature; and thus the proposed innovation would lead to the annihilation of the House of Lords. We under stood the Hon. Gentleman to sty that if corruption existed there were already existing legal means to remove it, without having recourse to the proposed measure, and die curbing the whole system of the Constitution.—(The H o n. Gentleman continued to address the House for some time, but a hoarseness with which he was afflicted, and t he noise in the House, which induced the Speaker several times to attempt to obtain silence, prevented us from hearing any more of his observations.) Sir J. YORKE said he owed it in gratitude to the House, for permitting him to address them after having been occupied for six nights in discussing the important measure before them, to he as brief as possible in stating a few objections to it. He felt that it required no small nerve to rise after the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford, who said he represented 7,000,000 of stout a ble-bodied Irishmen—(A laugh)—and the first Lord of the Adiniralty, whom he might consider his commander to-chief. He had always possessed a certain portion of modest assurance, but under existing circumstances he cer tainly felt considerable difficulty in addressing the Com mons of England. He could not admit that the House ought not to be considered the representatives of the people of England, when no longer ago than at the settlement of King William, in the preamble to the Bill of Rights, they were declared to be the full and free representatives of the people of England.—(Hear.) After having had a seat in the House for forty years; he should not like to part with it, he could not consent to commit Parliamentary suicide, by cutting his Parliamentary throat.—(A laugh.) Mini sters had undertaken to guide the helm of the state in times of considerable difficulty, and up to the present period he had been inclined to give them his support. They had acted with zeal and ability, and he was satisfied that they had the good of the country at heart. The measure before the House, however, was of such a na ture as prevented him from giving it his support. It was h t ß r e u i g ‘ e v il o t t s u 'e , lidnevshneoincttha say a i . ( v l ;e l s ' 1 a o r f e d t h t e h p e e o H pl e u , s e a o n f d C i singular that a Whig Administration framed the Bill of o t , oLo s t o a n s w t r c i i i b g e A t I , ;e . ministration which now proposed to re - mo d e l th e House— to revolutionize it. That there were defects in the present state of the representation he was not prepared to deny. He thought it highly unlit that five or six Peers, who had representatives in the House of Comtnom, should, by combining together, have it in their power to exercise an undue influence over the Government —( Hear, hear)—but he could never consent to disfran chise 60 boroughs, because they did not happen to fall within the Noble Pavniaster i s line of march.—(A laugh ) The Hon. Me m b er 'for Wareham 11.1 , 1 stated the other night, that if he had had only nice months' warning, Le would hive undertaken to supp!y the deficiency of popu lation in his borough.—(A laugh) lie believed that the borough which he represented would not come within the line of March, and though he did not possess the same Malthi:sian power as the Hon. Member for Wareham— (A laugh)--though ho wt as not gifted in the same extra drdillarY Wily, yet he ;and his worthy colleague would have done their best to enable their constituents to send re pre sentatires to Parliament.._( Great laughter.) It was an awkward thing that some doub•s were entertained as to tic impartiality of the pi esente measure. He did not wish to accuse Ministers of partiality, but it had got abroad that there was a little leaning towards the t, , orough of Tavistock. lie hoped that it was not so, l,ut •tach an opinion was entertained. The Hon. Memb a- fur Pr ston had, on a former evening, taken offence at some observa tion which he had made, and applied to them the designs tion of bilge water. 11, (Sir J. Yorke) had latoly ob served that technical naval language was often resorted to. It was introduced into the very hest and genteelcst so ciety. P rhaps this was owing to our having a naval King. In Parliamentary tactics it was now ,trite common to talk of throwing a Member's arguments overboard.— Nothing could be more completely allied to Davy Jones's Locker than that. Adopting the same phraseology, lie might be allowed to say of the ship launched by the Nob'e Lord opposite (Lord John Russell), that it was a clumsy-built vessel, with such amazing large bows in front, and such a clumsy run aft, that the first time ehe should put to sea, she would run bump ashore.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The First Lord of the A.dmiralty had il lustrated his argument by some nautical allusions. His linguage might be bilge-water, but it did not stink in the nostrils. The Right Hon. Baronet, ho sever, ha 1 not been very successful, for he not only upset his vessel, but nearly capsized his argument.—(Hear, and laughter.) lie supposed that in consequence of tie Right lion. Ba ronet presiding at a Nava! Board, and having none hut naval men about him, he thought that he might launch his little barque, freighted with his cargo of nautical know ledge. He be.Teel the Right lion. Baronet to r, mem ber, that the vessel might be upset by a single pull of the fall more than was necessary. About half a century ago the Royal George, at Spithead, went down from this cause. He trusted that the good ship William the Fourth would not upset in the same manner.—(Bear.) lie concluded by stating, that he would vote against the measure. Mr. BE mut, said that the Honourable Member for Burouglibridge had called upon those Members who had numerous constituents to come forward boldly and express their opinions with respect to the mea sure under consideration, and said that unless they should do so, they would be unworthy of the confidence which their constituents placed in them. He assented fully to that proposition, but he was called upon to address the [louse by a still more powerful motive—namely, the great number of petitions which had been sent to the House from his constituents. It had been said, that the cry for Reform which had been raised by the people upon the pre sent occasion bad been produced by recent events which had occurred upon the Continent. He appealed to his Noble Colleague (Lord Morpeth) whether the desire for Reform had not been expressed in Yorkshire before those events had occurred. The demand for Reform had been produced by the conduct of that House. When the House refused to transfer the franchise of East Retford to Bir mingham, they destroyed all the hopes and confidence which the country had up to that moment reposed in them. Could it be wondered at that a strong feeling in favour of Reform should exist in a county like Yorkshire, which was teeming with population, with wealth, and intellect ? In the course of the present discussion reference had fre quently been made to the period of the Revolution ; but he would ask, did the present wealth and population of the country exist at the period of the Revolution? Did the present degree of knowledge exist? Was there the same intense attention paid to every public debate ? Were the means of communication so generally established ? In all those particulars no parallel would hold between the period of the Revolution and the present time. At the period of the Revolution the great body of the people and the gentry were opposed to the arrangements which were then made. At the present moment the feeling which exist, d in favour of Reform was not confined to the lower classes, but pervaded all the middle classes, which was the best and most intelligent portion of the community. In his opinion the House bad lost the confidence of the coun try, and however pure the motives of its members might be—however they might be prepared to give up their time and their labour to the service of the country,—yet lie thought it right to state, th it they were not looked to with that degree of confidence which would alone enahl • them to do their duty. Bat though he was prepared to go a great way in remedying this evil, still he wished that that great measure now before the House had been pro duced with more caution.—(Lead cheers from the Oppo sition.) He could not but know, that in dealing with a question in which euch vast interests were involved, they ought to proceed with great caution, and he could not hut see and feel deeply, that however ill the system worked in regard to the public welfare, still, when a great and untried change w is about to he introduced, like that now before the House, it might be followed by consequences which the most clear•sighted men could not foresee.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He admitted that there might he instances too great and too palpalfe of that influence which was exercised by certain persons in that House ; and when that influence was placed in the hands of individuals who were vast proprietors, it might, in a nicely-poised question, turn the scale, and even bias the Government : and he was prepared to use the pruning -knife, but not the axe.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He did not sup pose that noble families would not find their way into that House, by force of rank and character; nor was be afraid that persons in the humble ranks of life, who were endowed with great abilities, would not be able, by their own buoyancy, to find their proper places : but he wished to learn whether the measure could, in its present shape, be carried into effect, without affecting a body of gentlemen of talent and knowledge,—persons connected with the manufacturing and mercantile interests, who could now readily find their way into the House. But how were such men, who might be well known in a metropolis, to make their character known in a borough ? There were able men, too, who shrunk from publicity.—(Hear.) He was not yet convinced that even the Government itself—he meant the means required for the conduct of it—might not be maternally diminished if this measure were carried into execution to the extent which was proposed.—(Hear, hear.) The House must be prepared to legislate not merely for the sunshine but for the storm and the tempest—( Hear)—and great and wise measures might be introduced, for which the country might be highly indebted to the Minister who brought it forward, yet that Minister might not dare to present him self as a candidate for a proper place, even a University which he had adorned in his youth and honoured in his manhood ; and the King's Government might be left with out an important officer in that House.—(Hear, hear.) These were serious objections in his mini to the measure. He admitted and would join in any plan to break down and diminish, that influence which was so odious and so noxious to the public welfare. He was not one of those who held that the resumption of trusts granted for the public benefit, if they no longer produced that benefit, although the trustee might nut be corrupt, seas unjust; he held that the public had a right to resume them, and that no act of robbery was committed. Under these circumstances, he was prepared to vote for every stage of the Bill till it came to the committee. There such mo difications might be introduced as might remove his ob jections ; but he despaired of their being removed to that degree that would justify him in giving it his support. In such a case he should meet his constituents with the assu , ranee of having performed his duty.—(Hear.) debate alr. o P n ß t A hi E s D said, questi that on,li after te r six n should not hi ofave ris e n t protracted fo 1. rtleincosoiunlsesidne, of consideration that although men of long standing in the H this kn u o t s vn b jcechat without ractera any degreendinteg of mistrust or y, mightsres at or misinterpretation, a young man like himself, without those advantages, could not safely pursue such a course. This was a question of which the peace, not only of Eng land, but of Europe, might depend.—(Hear.) There was one consideration which appeared to hint very impor tant, in which this question differed from any other, which was, that whatever error in principle might be contained in this measure would be perpetuated, and the Legislature would be precluded from after revision. —(Hear.) He would first look to the Constitution we had, before he would consider the new Constitution that was to be given to us. He believed there never was a deliberate body better entitled to the gratitude of the country over whose destinies they were called upon to preside, than that House.—(Hear, hear.) Probably no man of ordi nary habits had not been, at one time of his life, a Par liamentary reformer: but these were only the habits of youth ; the reflection of manhood led us to contrast the theoretical defects with the result of the system. In Psr - liamentary Reform, it was acknowledged by the other side to be difficult to thew how a large portion of talent, rank,l etel upul use, could gain admittance intee : 4at House. The Hon. and Learned Member for Caine had spoken of lucky accidents, and had said that if we took 100 of the tallest men, some might prove men of talent. He (Mr. Praed) would say, that if this system had gone on for a Juste series of years, and the same effects bad regularly and uniformaily arisen, he should be disposed to remain as we were. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, that even under a despotic Government a people might be well go verned ; if so, he should say, he would not change his despotic Government for the Hon. Member's Constitutional Goveniment.—(Hear, hear, on both sides.)—His (Mr. Preen's) objections to this measure were so many and so strong, that he despaired of their removal in a Committee. —(Hear.)--His first objection was to the general plan of di , Bill, which included a number of monstrous anomalies. Whilst it was said that Members were to be returned by population, and that votes were to be governed by pro perty, it was clew that there would be many instances of capital tow'n's in a county. containing houses the inhabitants of which were rated at the proper rate, but the population of which might be infinitely inferior to that of a town where the houses were worse and the voters consequently fewer. This anomaly would create great discontent. It was an anomaly by which the basis of representation was narrowed. With respect to char tered rights:, a great and paramount necessity was the only ground for tearing off the seal of a charter ; but none had h en shown. It had been said that the measure would admit of all interests being represented in the Ilouse of Commons; but where should we find representatives in the West India and the East India interests ? The Learned Judge Advocate's argument last night on this point was an argument in favour of virtual representation, theugh lie contended for an actual representation. The representatives for liuckinghem and Dumfries were to re present those places, and not any other interests. It was atiil that those who opposed this measure objected to all Reform, hut Ile (Mr. Prised) objected only to a Reform that went entirely to remodel that House—(Hear)—and lie epurelteneion respecting such a change was !smell greater than that of the Hon, the First Lord of the Ad atitalte, lie had said there was no danger to be appre s eel for a series of years a growing desire to pull down headed to the House of Peers ; but lie (Mr. Prate!) had that respect for the nouee of Peers in which it ought to be held in the country'. He knew that the sovereign of this country had once ;seen endowed with a veto. lie k new tw e et h a d b ecome of this.' reto,—that it had become obtenlete. He looked wits: seriosts apprehension to this ' ,L ee :heir foot on th e h Bill, and if it were passed by that Hoteee, they would carry Reform iold beyondof the th H a e t us l e do e u f se r , , a e n i d s. He be asked to what Reform he was friendly. He was friendly' to a gra dualter Reform of such grievances as should be proved to exist.—(Hear.)—Cases of this kind often occurred—East Retfted was one. A Noble Lord hail toid that there would be one thing gained by this measure—that the pub lic would be no longer mocked by the lostlanno:ne hypocrisy exhibited in the East Bettor,' case. - lie might live to see the day when a Member in the place of the Noble Lord, would say to the then House of Commons., one thing has been gained by this Bill—the public will no more be mocked by the loathsome hypocrisy of the dis cussions of 1831. lie (Mr. Praed) raid that this was not a final measure.—(Hear.) sweeping as the Bill was, suf ficiently so, as the Noble Lord said, to satisfy all moderate inen,—it did not go far enough for some ; and a Bill might be looked for which would go es far beyond the Bill of the moderate men as the Bid of ti,e moderate men went beyond the state of the Constitution that satisfied high Tories.—(Hear.) It had been urged as an argu ment by the advocates of the present measure, that the House slowly followed in the wake, instead of leading in the Yin of public opinion. It was the case, and he rejoiced that it was so; fur otherwise they would have been the victims of all the evils of democracy. But the House changed its policy when it was expedient that it should du so—when the measures which called for the change were sufficiently ripened in the estimation of the public ; except perhaps in one instance with respect to a great question, which he need not more distinctly specify. It has been said also that if the House had few years ago pawned a Bill for enfranchising Birmingham and the other large unrepresented towns, there would be no excitement of the popular mind now on the subject of Reform; but that argument was fully refuted by the statement of the Right lion. Membsr (Cruker) for Aldborough, that that endow ment of franchise had not constituted the prayer of the few petitions presented to that House on the subject of Reform for the last few years. Besides, if the argument was good for anything, it led to this conclusion—that if such a proposition now emanated from Ministers, it woulti be assented to without a division, slowing that a moderate Reform only would be in harmony with the feelin g s and opinions of the large majority of that House, and not a measure like the present, that went to pull down about their ears the fabric of our time-honoured Constitution. Then, with reference to the diminution of the numbers of that House by 62 seats, which would be the result of the Noble Lord's Bill, they had been told that the Howe was inconveniently numerous, and that the public business could be better managed by fewer Members. He denied the assertion, and contended that whether they looked to the magnitude and variety of the subjects discussed there and in the committees above stairs, there was hardly a sufficient number of representatives in that House.— (Hear, hear.) He trusted that for these and several other equally cogent reasons the Bill would be thoroughly revised in all its provisions before it was next brought be fore the House. He should prefer, instead of the great disfranchising clause, to see one introduced for restoring the franchise to those towns which had lost their right of returning representatives, or, if this propositions should not meet favour in the eyes of Ministers, he should prefer seeing the franchise extended to several districts at present unrepresented, which he thought pos sessed at least equal claims to representation with those towns on which it was intended to bestow the right of returning a Member to that House. lie saw no reason why the several interests of the empire sitould not be di rectly represented there,—why Jamaica, or the island of Berhatloce, should not have their Hon. Members,—which was not less objectionable than the present measure. Ile should like to ask the Noble Representative of the Uni versity of Cambridge, what objection he could advance against—by way of balancing the great democracy infu sion tendency of the Bill—doubling the number of the Members for the two universities ? Such an arrange ment would, he conld assure him, be calculated to allay the well-founded apprehensions of his ecclesiastical con stituents. It had been said that the Bill was but a just concession of the demands of the people. whose excitement it would thus abate. It was not, he main taiued, what the people asked for, judging by their petitions. They prayed for, in some instances, uni versal suffrage; in others, for the vote by ballot ; and in others for a reduction of the public burdens quite incompatible with the public service—desiring the difference to be made good from the revenues of the church ; but in no instance did they pray for such a measure as the present. They therefore would not be satisfied by it. Neither would Mr. Bentham and his numerous disciples ; nor would that large class, of whom the Hon. Member for Freston might be considered the representative. All, it was true, openly approved of it.—(licar.)—But why did they ? Because they considered it the first step to wards further changes.—( Bear, and a laugh.)—The re forming public was told by its leaders, " Accept of this for the present, that we may the more readily wrest more by-and-by. Put this in your pocket as the first instal tnent of the debt so long due to us. The Bill of Minis.. ters will enable us to shake off the old man of the moun. tains : all the rest in good time,"—(Bear. )—This was the reason that the Bill was received with open arms out of doors—(Loud cries of " Hear" from the Ministerial benches)—and not that it went to satisfy the democratic cravings of the public,—(From this point of the Hon. Member's speech, to the conclusion, lie was but occasionally audible in consequence of the murmurs and impatience of the House.)—He begged pardon of the House : he felt he was trespassing on its indulgence, but he would be brief.—(Hear, hear.) He did not mean to deny that some of the petitioners who had approached that House on the subject of Reform were respectable and intelligent individuals ; hut he would main tain, that, take them as a body, they were not thine per sons to whose opinions he would refer on a great legis lative measure. He should have preferred more of the intelligence and wealth of the community its a guide of their decisions. There was one other point on which he begeged leave to offer a few observations—(" Oh, oh !" " No, no !" " Hear !")—namely, the real cause of the pre-. sent excitement on the subject of Reform. lie believed that the distress under which the country I thiourea con tributed in a degree to this excitement, but he looked to the reviving industry and employment of all chooses for the remedy. It had been sale that the excitement had been brought about by Ministers themselves, te favour time progress of their Reform measure. Ile did not credit this assertion,—he should " as soon believe, with kird Sir finger, That old Moll White took wing with cat and broomstick, And raised the last night's thunder." nen that, the Right lion. Gentlemen opposite had raised the present excitement.—(" Oh," and laughter.) What, then, was the cause of all this clamour about Reform ? The cause, in his mind, had been whinny o verlooked by a b l e l those who had preceded him in the de ba t e, and would on tie found, he believed, in the e xcitement consequent p ....eGreat laughter, and carrying of the Catholic question.