The Sun. — London, England, 1842-02-26 00:00:00

into it, and call for some explanation and information respecting it. They had as yet heard very little in de fence of the sliding scale. He did not quarrel with that. They had been rather debating principles, and were not called on to interf ere s o muc h w ith d e t ai l s . They had now, on the first vote to be taken on the sliding scale, an opportunity of asking some of those questions, and receive some of those explanations which he felt satisfied the Government would think it their duty to give. He begged to call the attention of the House to the very resolution he held in his hand, it called on them to decide " whenever the average price of wheat, made up and published in the manner required by law, was, for every ctuarter, under 515., the duty for every quarter should be 205." " Whenever the average price of wheat, as made up in the manner required by law"—why, these words raised the important point of the mode of t ak ing the averages. All the arguments and all th k e . discuss io n s had hitherto gone on the. old system of tangthe ave rages; but the Right Hon. Gentleman st ated , that he un derstood by the mode of taking the averages, a considerable alteration was made in the average price of wheat. They had heard from the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton, a gentleman for whose opinions he had great respect, a corroboration of this opinion. In fact it was quite im possible to meet any gentleme n on either side of the House, without being satisfied that a strong opinion prevailed that a mode of taking the averages would make a considerable difference in the average price. Th e speech of the honourable Gentleman was quite conclusive on this point. He said the difference would be 55., but that was an exaggeration. However, after a careful examination, he (Mr. Baring) found it would be 28. (Hear.) - - He did not mean to impute any intention to deceive to the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he thought he had better prepare and carry a Bill at once to attain his object than to cheat the people in this manner.-- (Cheers) The Honse had a right to receive from the Right Honourable Gentleman that information and those papers which he and his Cabinet had no doubt, before them when they decided on altering the mode - of taking the averages, which, nevertheless, he said, would have no e ff ect on t h e results. It was clear that hitherto London was a certain general indication of the sales of all other markets ; but the new plan would deprive London of that position, whilst we had no means as yet of knowing what quantities would be sold in the 150 new towns Wise added to the old ones. But 'as the effect would undoubtedly be to disturb the averages, he trusted the necessary information respecting those 150 townswould be given to the House. There was anotherpoint on which the House wanted information. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade had brought forward resolutions in which he proposed to place a duty of 3s. on corn imported into Canada and some other Colonies. His Noble Friend approved of the rest of the Bill, but he entered his caveat against . the 3s. duty—(Hear, hear)--however, the question was asked, and as it required an answer he (Mr. Baring) presumed that it had been heard ; the answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman was, that so far as that propo sition, now under the consideration of the Government was concerned, it was not decided whether they should go on with it or abandon it altogether,•and it must be con sidered as a proposition left on the table for considera tion. He (Mr. Baring) thought that they had a right to know what decision they had come to.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Baring) recollected when he brought forward the sugar duties, that between the time he had announced it and the time he printed the duties, that in conse quence of representations mode to him, and in accord ance with his own opinion, so that the proposition might not-meet With a strong opposition, he made some alterations in the duty ; and the Right Hon. Gentlemen told him that nothing but the knowledge of his cha racter could convince him (the Right Hon. Gentleman) that there was not something unfair in the proposition; and the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury, in three set speeches, denounced the measure as one so ill advised and so ill considered that an alteration actually had been made in it between the time of making the proposition and printing the duties. If he (Mr. Baring) then had done as the Right Hon. Gentleman had done now, if he had made a Bill fir Canada, and was in a state of uncer tainty; not knowing whether to go on or not, and were to turn round and say that in consideration of the trade, and so on, he begged of the House to go on, what would have been done to him ?—(Hear.) Why there would have been no end of the attacks which he should have received from the fluency of the Right Hon. Gentleman and his party, to the more solemn and serious attacks of the Right Hon. Baronet, who in three set speeches at tacked him for making a slight alteration in a Bill be tween the time of its commencement and its printing.— (Hear, hear.) There was another part of the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet, of his scale, upon which the House had no information whatever. He had started with the admission that they were to adhere to the sliding scale. That was the principle of the Bill. Now in his opinion, there were two single occasions on which this principle seemed to be exceedingly weak, and he was anxious to learn from the Right Hon. Ba ronet and the Government the principle on which their two rests were to be made. He heard that the Govern ment:placed great store upon these two rests. They began from 51s. to 525. with the sliding scale ; from 51s. to 52.4. the principle was considered good ; but the mo ment they came to 525., and went up to 555., then the principle ceased, and they had no sliding but a fixed hcale. 'Now, he should be glad to know why that which wits good between sls. and 525, should be supposed to' be bad between 525. and 555. ? And then the proposition of the slide between 565. and 595. contained something curious about it. In the Bill proposed 1 Mr. Canning and his colleagues the slid ing seek was adhered to throughout. There was a fixed' principle throughout, showing their reliance and confidence in the principle, of adhering to the sliding scale. They we re t urne d out upon that ; the Bill was rejected, he would not say how; and the Right lion. Baronet and the Noble Duke came in, and formed their Administration. They altered the prin ciple, they followed the sliding scale from 655. to 665., but the moment they came to 665. they introduced what was called the jumping scale.—(Hear, hear.) That principle was now aban doned. It. was recognised at the time ; and it was 'con- Adered one of the principal beauties of the Bill. Now of all the 'absurdities of the sliding scale, he believed that to le the worst ; and he should be glad to know why those who, in 1838, were convinced that it was per fection itself, should think it right to abandon the scale at 665. lie . should be happy to hear from the Right lion. Baronet some explanation of that extraordinay change of opinion.—(Cheers.) For his own part, he would freely tell the Government, that those pauses should receive no opposition from him. He accepted it as an admission that the sliding scale would not do pure and unmitigated.—(Cheers.) It was a confession that the principle of the sliding'scale could not . be carried out.—(Loud cheers.) There could be no arithmetical difficulty in making the scale slide through out ; therefore, there must be some grave and solemn reasoe for these pauses. Now, he should like to know what was the reason that made the principle of a sliding duty good from 51s. to 525., and then made it good for the slide to cease from 525. to 56s.—(Cheers.) He should be glad of further information on that point.—(Cheers.) lie would admit that nothing could be more absurd, nothing could be more unsatisfactory then to discuss the prices at which corn ought to be sold ; but he (Mr. Baring) could not help that; it was the fault of the principle of lion. Gentlemen op posite—(Cheers)—it was the fault of the principle of the sliding scale.—(Loud cheers.) Now he should like the Right Hon. Gentleman to point out the principle on which he made that pause. They had had papers in abundance laid on the table of that House. They had been almost smothered wits papers, and he should like to see how the Right Hon. Gentleman could from those papers make out his own calculations.—(Cheers.) The subject had been introdnced with all due solemnity. Months ago the newspapers had announced that the Government was about to take the subject of the Corn laWs into its most serious consideration; then that the public was informed that the Right Hon. Gentleman had sent a gentleman to the Continent for the purpose of collecting statistical information; and that the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade was instituting inquiries as to the prices in the home market. Then it was announced that the Cabinet was in delibera tion, and behold . the result!—(Cheers.) He wished to know why the Right Hon. Baronet considered that a priceaif 545. to 58s. was a proper price to be secured to the-farmer., -He was anxious to know what had induced the Right Hon. Baronet to come to that conclusion, lie knew how uninteresting it was to' go into a dry det a il o f figures, - 'but -he 'wished to test the probability o f th e Right- Hon. 'Baronet's Bill' having the effe c t w hi c h h e had stated he intended it should have. lie (Mr. Baring) had not at his command all the information to which'the Right Hon. Baronet had access. As a Member of Par liament he could only have access to those papers which the Government had been kind enough to present to the House. He had looked over those papers, and each successive papetihe had read had tended to confirm him in the conclusion at which he had arrived as to the ulti mate -failure of the Right Hon. Baronet's experi ment.---(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman who heal -just sat down had stated that he had gone into calculations as .to what the effect of the Right Hon. Baronets Bill would have been, had it been enacte d i n f ormer times. Now, that was not bada inethed of testing the e ffi ci e n c y o f th e Ri g h t H on. Baronet's plan, and he (Mr. Baring ) had endeavo ure d . to discov er f rom public doc . ument s what would have been the effect of the Right lion. Baronet's plan if it had been enacted in 18 28. As far as he (Mr. Barin g) c ould see, no trade in f ore i gn corn of the slightest impor tance ortanct could be carried on un d er 60s. As far as he (Mr .' Baring) could find, corn could not be introduced into this country under 60s. It was necessary that they should make allowance for freight and other expenses at tendant on importation. The Right Honourable Ba ronet had only alloe e 1 for a 1 ti •;e expenses from four to five shillings per quarter. lie knew where the Right Hon.. Baronet got his figures. He had got them from the Consular returns, in which was given a return of freight. and freight only. But there wire other ex penses, which if they attended to the information g i ven by Mr. Meek, they weuld find would greatly increase the pace of wheat before it could be introduced into the English market. He would only refer the Right Hon. Baronet to the statement of the gentleman whom he had himself selected. Allowing for freight and insurance 65., and for the expenses attending the sale between 4s. and ss. per quarter, the whole expenses of importation, according to Mr. Meek, before the corn could be con veyed to the purchasers in England would amount to los. 6d. It was the Right Hon. Baronet's own officer who furnished that information. Durini the last ses sion Ministers told the House that it was necessary they should make inquiries before they came to any conclusion as to the measure they should pro- Pose. They - accordingly selected an officer, who was no ild4 . so‘ t u m t•tad euid mirabj % fitted for the mission on which he was p_ . l insurance and other charges of ex namely, Ins; . ‘4,,the were - about - the' same as et' Stettin, under notwi4 he price of wheat in England was the change which the Right lion. Baronet made in,Vils'gßill, there ciatabe no eon.- petition between the importer from Dantzic and the English grower. That was his proposition. He found, that in the year 1828, the average price in England was 50s. 6d. ; and it appeared, from a Report of a Commit tee of which the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department was a member, the average of wheat at Dantzic in the same year was 30s. That was apparent from their own Report. Now the duty under the scale of the Right Honourable Baronet would have been 205., and, by adding 10s. for freightage, they would have a sum of 605., a t which, of course, the Dantzic wheat could not be sold, in the year 1828, in this country. He was ready to admit, however, that under 60s. there might have been some relief in the year in question under the scale of the Right Hon. Baronet. The average price in England, in 1832, amounted to 58s. ; the average price in Dantzic was 385., which, with the duty and freight, would make it amount, if exported into this country, to 625., at which price, of course, the importer could not have come into competition with the English grower. In 1833 the average price of English wheat was 525. lid. ; the price at Dantzic was 305., which, with freight and duty of 18s., would make 58s. ; while the price in England, as he had already said, was 525. 11d. In 1834 the prices were extremely low in both countries ; the average price in England having been 46s , and the average price at Dantzic having been 355. The duty and the freight upon Dantzic wheat in that year would, therefore, have made the price of it imported into this country amount to 655., and the duty would have been at the maximum. In 1835 the average price in England was 355., and in Dantzic 295. ; so that in that year Dantzic wheat could not have been sold in this country at less than 595., which, of course, excluded it from our markets altogether. In 1836 the price in England was 48s. 6d the price at Dantzic was 335. 6d.; adding the duty of 20s. to the freight, the Dantzic wheat could only be sold in Eng land at 635., whilst English wheat was selling at 58s. Again, in 1837 the pri.e in England was 555. 10d., whilst the price at Dantzic was 295. 4d., the duty 175., and the price at which it would come into the market 565. 4d. No doubt the prices ran very close in that in stance ; but it must be recollected that there were in that year continued low prices in this country, and that those prices were clearly below the prices which would rule under a free trade or a moderate duty. The Right Hon. Gentleman (the Vice-President of the Board of Trade) had furnished him that morning with a return of the price and time at which certain quantities of grain had been introduced into the English market. That return furnished a conclusive mode of ascertaining the price at which eorn was introduced into England: - He found that the trade was, in fact, very trifling. In the years 1832, 1833, 1834, and 1837, there was undoubtedly some wheat introduced at a great loss ; but if Hon. Gentle. men would consult the paper which had been placed in their hands that morning, th.,y would see that there was no corn whatever introdnced into this country under a duty of 20s. Bd. When the duty was 20s. Bd., the ave rage price in England must be between 665. and 675. Deduct from 665. the 20s. Bd. which the party would have to pay for duty, and that gave the price which he received free of duty at 455. 4d. That was conclusive evidence to his mind, that from 1828 up to that time there had been no extensive im portation of foreign corn under 455. Bd. His Hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth had gone through se veral calculations, all leading to the conclusion that 455. was about the average price, and that was about the price which was given by the returns. From their own returns it appeared that the average price of wheat at Guernsey was 465. a quarter, and at Jersey the price of foreign wheat since 1828 was 48s. a quarter. He admitted that too much importance should not be attached to the average price of corn in those small islands, but yet it was a remarkable fact the average prices even in those islands were rather against than in favour of the calculation. The Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned the case of Elsinore. He calculated the prices at which foreign corn might be in troduced into England by the prices at which it could be procured at Elsinore. The Right Hon. Baronet stated that for the last 25 years, the average price at Elsinore was 28s. 10d. But it must be remembered that that was not the average price of Denmark. One might as well calculate the prices of corn in Russia by the prices at Riga, or of Prussia by the prices at • Dantzic, or take the prices at Elsinore for the whole of the Continent. The average price means the prices on the whole Continent. But what do the papers that come out of the hands of the Right Hon. Baronet himself state ? Again, if the House look at the Returns from the year 1828, Hon. Members would find that the prices even in Dantzic from 1828 down te the present time were above 30s. a quarter, and not 28s. a quarter, as the Right Hon. Baronet had cal culated ; and again, Mr. M‘Gregor stated that from 30s. to 355. a quarter were the very lowest, which he considered were the prices of foreign corn on the Continent. It was admitted that the price of wheat at Dantzic averaged 365. a quarter. The Right Mon. Baronet stated that the prices at Elsi nore should be taken on an average at 28s. a quarter. Now he must he a wonderful conjuror-(Laughter)- if he could explain what could induce a merchant to pre fer to go to Dantzic to buy his wheat at 365. a quarter to pay a greater rate of freight and insurance upon it at Dantzic, when he could get the, same description of wheat at 28s. a quarter at Elsinore.--(Hear, hear.) To persuade him that whilst the average price of fair wheat was 365. at Dantzic, there was at Elsinore an in terminable stock which would be sufficient to furnish this country at 285., and swamp the landed interest (Hear.)-to persuade him to that, exceeded even the ability of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because o n th e face of it, it was incredible and abstrd. Sir R. PEEL was understood' to say across the table, that the statement was Mr. M‘Gregor's.—(Hear.) That Gentleman said that there was in Denmark an inter minable stock.—(Hear.) Mr. BARING thanked the Hon. Gentleman for the correction ; but the statement to which he referred was that of his (Sir R. Peel's) own Mr.• Meek. But he had understood the Right Hon. Baronet himself to say that there was an enormous quantity of corn and of cultivable land, which would be turned into corn land, if the trade with this country were free. The Right Hon. Baronet must see that there was some misapprehension arising out of the use of the word " corn."—(Hear.) That Hon. Gentleman used it chiefly in reference to wheat. An Irish Gentleman would understand oats to be meant by it, and would think from the statement that all the land in Denmark was to be laid out in the cultivation of oats.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The Noble Gentleman who told the House of the inexhaustible resources of Den mark, mixed up M'Gregor, Meek, corn, currency, and Mr. Campbell's Rhymes in one argument.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The Hon. Gentleman said that 700,000 quarters could be furnished at Elsinore alone. But the fact •as, according to the very papers on the authority of which the statement was made, the utmost that had been exported from that port was 160,000 quarters, and the utmost that could be exported of good wheat was 250,000 quarters.—(Hear.) Thus, this great bugbear— Elsinore—last year it was Odessa—(Hear, hear)—could furnish at the utmost only 250,000 quarters to swamp the landed interest of this country ; and Hon. Gentle men professed to think that this was to regulate the prices and the consumption of 26 millions of people.— (Cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman, in conclusion, said that though he had trespassed long upon the House, he had confined himself entirely to the scale. Mr. GLADSTONE said he would endeavour to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, in the several points which he entered upon in the course-of his speech ; and though the Right Hon. Ge ntleman had mixed up a great deal of reasoning in a dis cussion so dry in itself, he (Mr. Gladstone) would con , fine'himself to the naked subject before the House.— (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the new mode of taking the averages proposed by his Right Hon. Friend seemed to him to be materially de fective ; and he was certainly astonished, to a degree beyond what any statement he had ever heard in that House produced in him (Mr. Gladstone), when he per ' ceived the late President of the Board of Trade giving some credit to the statement, that the effect produced on the averages, by the mode of taking them would be no less than ss. a quarter.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Glad stone) designated such a statement as one of the grossest absurdity.--=(erieS of Oh, oh," from the • Opposi tion.) He would beg of Hon. Gentlemen to let him go into details, and show to the Committee the reasons why he designated the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman an asurd one, though he suggested to the House that it was one worthy of attention.--(Hear, hear.) It was important that with respect to this ques tion the new list of towns should not be mixed up with' the subject, because the Right Hon. Baronet had very explicitly declared that if any sensible or serious effect were produced by the new list of towns which were laid provisionally on the table, an alter ation would take I place in them so as to prevent any such effect.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the estimate of the Hon. Gen tleman who brought forward the proposition that the averages would be affected not .to an extent of 55,. but who countenanced two-fifths of that esti mate, he (Mr. Gladstone) was prepared to prove that estimate, even so modified and revised, was one altogether beyond any rational calculation. 7-- (Hear, hear.) If they took the population of the towns which now made returns, for the purpose of ascertaining the averages, they would find that those towns, with the exception of London, contained a population of 2,500,000, and with London added, the amount of population was, I according to the census of 1831, no less than 3,982,000. The new towns included in the list on the table, had' a population of 1,623.000, but for the sake of round num bers, he would say 1,600,000. He did not pretend to give the Committee, at the present moment, all the informati on w hi c h he hoped they would have on the subject. Th a t information' was in course of prepa ration ; and when it was fully before them, he hoped he would be able to show that 'the estimate advanced, whether by the Right Hon. Baronet or by the Hon. Member for Lincolnshire, was altogether unsupported by reasonable evidence. Ile was now going to test the as sertion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Lincolnshire, that the averagt s w uld be influenced 2a. a quarter in the whole by the change. But that Hon. Member was not to be designated an unwilling witness in this matter ; he believed he was anxious, according to his conscientious views, to represent the plan of the Government in as favourable a light to the agricultural interest as he thought it would bear. So far, therefore, from being sn unwilling witness, he believed he was willing and eager to show the farmers of England that the protection came up, if not quite to his mark, yet to what he thought es sential. The population of the new towns was 1,600,000, and of the old towns 4,000,000 ; that was, the new towns were to the old as two to five. He could not prove the precise amount of the corn sold in the new towns, as there had be' n no account kept, but he would take the average quantity sold at the same amount per head as in the old towns. He did not know that any one could object to that estimate, either that it was too much or too little, but let them see how it would operate. The new towns being to the old as two to five, it follows, if the infusion of new ones raised the agregate average to -2s. a quarter, that in these new towns, which it was pro- i posed to insert, the average price of wheat must be lower, by 7s. a quarter, than in the old ones.—(Hear, hear.) Was there any man in the Committee, who would get up and say that he believed this was likely to be the case? It was a mere matter of arith metic. If the new towns were as two to five, and if the quantity of corn sold in the old towns was 4,000,000 quarters, which was about the quantity given by the corn inspectors' return, and if two-fifths of that quantity was to be added, and if the return upon the sum of these two quantities was 5,600,000 quarters, then it fol lowed that before the average could be lowered 25., a quarter, on the whole, it must be lowered 7s. a quarter in the new towns compared with the old ; and did any one in the Committee believe that this would be the case?—(Hear, hear.) This, it should be observed, was in reference to the qualified estimate of the Hon. Member for Lincolnshire, but how would it apply to the estimate of the late President of the Board of Trade? Now, if this calculation were true, it fol lowed that the average price of wheat in the new towns must be 10s. or 12s. more than :in the old towns—a conclusion that convicted itself. But now he called upon the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was so severe upon the Government, to go to the bottom of this matter. He called upon the late Chancellor of the Exchequer as a professor of the art of figures—(Laughter)—to show the reasonableness of the estimate that the average prices in the new towns would be 7s. less than in the present. In looking over the new towns it would be seen, that they had not included the largest markets, because those towns had already furnished the averages, but they had taken the next greatest, as centres of population and consumption, and had made, at least, a comparative estimate of their sales. They had made a reference to London and Yorkshire, as the two greatest centres of consumption, population, and speculation, and they found that in the beginning of the year 1839, sin gularly enough, the prices of wheat, as returned by the corn inspectors, were actually less than the I averages of the rest of the kingdom ; and thik in the latter part of that year the London and Yorkshire aver ages rose to 6s. 11d. above the rest of the country. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read aneaccount of the prices of corn in the London and Yorkshire mar kets, as compared with the prices in other parts of the kingdom during different weeks in the years 1839, 1840, and 1841, showing that the prices were sometimes higher. sometimes lower, in one than ihe other, and sometimes were the same ; from this he argued, that if any man had been so credulous as to believe that the average price of wheat was in one set of towns 7s. lower than in another set of towns, he hoped he had laid enough before the House to undeceive such a one. The Right Hon. Gentlemen then went on to allude in terms of great exultation to a proposition that he (Mr. Gladstone) had the honour of stating to the House in making observations relating to the Colonial trade for laying a duty of 3s on wheat in Canada. Of the charges made against him there, however, he was not the least ashamed.-(Hear.) He certainly was not learned in these matters, but he could conceive nothing so monstrous in a country like England, as that an Executive having made a proposal should be expected to adhere to it whether it were right or wrong. Lord JOHN RUSSELL-That's what you say. Mr. GLADSTONE that was what they said, and he was not aware that they wished to deny it.- (A laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had adverted to the alteration he proposed in the sugar duties, and he wished to have this considered as an analagous case. There was no blame attributable to the Right Honour able Gentleman for seeing cause for an alteration in the sugar duties, but what he was to blame for was, that it was an alteration of a singular character, and one that was proposed before the House was aware of what it was. -(Cries of " Oh, oh.") It was printed on the very morning when the proposed discussion on the resolution of his Friend the Member for Liverpool was to come on, and it was laid on the table so late, that it was not in the hands of Members until a late hour, and his Noble Friend actually came into the House without knowing what it was. With regard to this question no one in the House, he thought, would contend that, with respect to America, any proposition should be brought forward which would raise a barrier between that country and this. If Parliament should choose to lay a purely nominal duty on the importation from Canada, he would not venture to pledge himself th a t i t would not be thought right to adhere to the duty proposed in his resolution. As questions had been raised as to the constitutional rights of the House to make a tax on colonial produce, he might say that a duty upon American flour from Canada was intended to be proposed. The Right Hon. Gentleman, after having alluded to those collateral merits of the great measure, went on to discuss the merits of the sliding scale. He selected, as the objects of his sarcasm, the rests intro duced in the Ministerial scale. The Right Hon. Gentle man did not seem to attach much importance to the level in the first part of that scale ; but he appeared to think that he could make a very strong case out of the level at the other end of the scale. He showed that, at the very point at which the measure proposed by the Noble Lord and his colleagues in 1828, created a rapid descent in the duty, the present scale would create a level. But what was the effect of the former accelerated rate of descent in the general opinion of the country ? It had been, according to the convictions of every one , a tt en d e d w i t h the greatest incon veniences. But was it an unnatural course that the Go vernment should attempt to put an end to these inconve niences by removing the cause of them ?-(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked what was the meaning of the principle which the Government had adopted upon this subject. Why, the object must surely be obvious enough. The object was, when the state of the markets indicated an approach to rise to induce parties, if possible, to diminish such an inconvenience by bringing corn into marks t which they might otherwise be tempted to keep back. The Right lion. Gentleman had said that he aimed at that level as indicating an ap proach to a fixed duty. But the Right Honourable Gentleman should have remembered that the Noble Lord the Member for London, had declared his belief that a fixed duty should be abandoned when prices rose to an extreme height ; and with that confession still ringing in their ears, he (Mr. Gladstone) thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have abstained from the sarcasms in which he had indulged on that subject. Mr. BARING-But what can be said of the level at the commencement of the scale ? Mr. GLADSTONE said that at the commencement of the scale the Right Hon. Gentleman himself had made very little of the proposed level ; but he referred to it then when he found that he had got an inconve nient answer in the other case.-(Hear, hear, and laughter on the Ministerial Benches.) But the answer which he (Mr. Gladstone) would give to the objections of the Right Hon. Gentleman to the kveLat the commencement of the scale was, that if that scale applied rationally to the price, it was but right to establish it; and if it were not right, the Right Hon. Gentleman should first have proved that posi tion. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that foreign corn could not be imported until the price reached 693. in this coun. try; while the Right Hon. Gentleman stated that his (Mr. Gladstone's) Right Hon. Friend had proposed to secure to the farmer a price not exceeding from 545. to 58.5. Now he (Mr. Gladstone) was astonished to find that such a wish had been ascribed to his Hight Hon. Friend, who had befure emphati cally contradicted the assertion that such a wish was entertained on his part. His Right Hon. Friend had merely said that if prices could be made to range generally between 545. and 585., he thought the farmer would be satisfied ; but he accompanied that statement with the declaration that it was totally im possible to fix any particular price. According to the Right Hen. Gentleman opposite they would have no trade in corn until the price reached 60s. Now he (Mr. G.) did not know whether he would be justified in detaining the Committee by any speculations, vague as they: necessarily must be, upon that subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman in his speech had given them a certain set of figures, and the Hon. Member for Lincolnshire had given them another set of figures, each, no doubt, very plausible, but each contra dicting the other.-( Hear.) The Bight lion. Gentleman attempted to demonstrate that they could have no trade in corn when the price was under 605., while the HOPI. Mem ber for Lincolnshire had attempted to show that it would go very hard with the farmers when prices ranged from 50s. to 535. Now, look briefly into some of the facts of the case. The documents which presented them with the most valuable information as to the prices at which wheat could be imported from abroad were the statements of the Consuls, which appeared in the report of Mr. Meek. According to that summary they might import 2,200,000 quarters annually from the Continent, at a price free in bond of 375. There were three places, however, at which prices were higher; namely, Riga, Rotterdam, and Antwerp. But the quantity , which might be imported from those places did not enter into the aggregate of 2,200,000 quarters. Now they might certainly show that no such quan tity as that could be imported, in all probability, when the price was under 605., after they had made a fair allowance for the profit of the importer. But small quantities of foreign corn might he imported at a much lower price. Let them take the two ports of Odessa and Elsinore, and they would find from the statement of our Consul a' Elsinore, that 175,000 quarters might be imported from that port at a price of 335. ; and 150,000 quarters, at a price of 265. 6d., might be imported from Odessa. Mr. Meek collected his information, of course, from the Consuls, and it was ridiculous to suppose that on points of detail any of those gentlemen were to be regarded as infallible. He was firmly persuaded that B s . was about the pro per sum to b e p a id for freight. Persons who had every motive for wishing to extend the foreign trade, agreed that Bs.was a fair aver age price. They must not forget, that for Bs. the corn was brought to the best markets in England, whilst out of the price which the farmer obtained for his corn, he had to pay the cost of bringing it to market. In this way there was deducted '2s. or 2s. 6d. from the profit of the British grower. If they took 53. for Elsinore, and 10s. for Odessa, not as comprsing the whole expense, but the whole excess of expense over the ave rage expense to which the British grower was put in bringing his corn to market, the result was, that there were 150,000 quarters of wheat brought from Odessa into this country at 375. 6d., and 175,000 quarters at 38s. That would give a price of 40s. for 325,000 quarters of wheat. Now, he had proceeded upon the evidence to which the Right Hon. Gen tleman :had referred • him.-(Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition benches.) Yes, this was their evidence -( Hear.) It might have undergone some correction, but it was evidence furnished by Consuls who were under the sway of the late Government. It appeared, then , up o n the authority of the Consuls, that they m ight have 300,000 quarters of w h eat respect l brought into Eng land at 40s. a quarter, showi ng , t h at with a duty of 165. it m ight be withsod a t to 56 s. in Dantzic? the English ma r k e t. B u t what was th e fact He hoped the Ri g ht Hon. Gentleman would not gentleman of his own choi ce , and o ne Hubbard's authority, a disown Mr. who had shown the greatest industry and discrimination.-_ ( Hear, h ear .) A n d t h at gent leman quoted, the average price a t D antzic, for ten years, as 375. 7d. If they took the cost of freight, &c., at 55., that would raise the price to 42 5. ; so that Dantzic wheat could pay a duty of 155., and yet come into the British market at 575.-( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had taunted them (the IVlinisterial side) with an indisposition te refer tothe information furni,hed by the agents of the present Government, and particularly to the report of Mr. Meek. The Hon. Gentleman had been careful in his own quotations of Mr. Meek, w h en h e taunte d th os e Gentlemen who said that co rn was no more than 28s. at Elsinore ; for Mr. Meek said that the average price of corn wheat at Dantzic in 25 years had been 28s. ; but he consid ere d that the prospect of a steadier market for continental corn, by the opening of the trade with this country, would raise the price to 30s. Now if they took that calculation, and added to it ss. per quarter for cost of importation, Dantzic wheat could be landed in Eng land at 355., and, paying a duty of lea., cou ld b e so ld a t 53 5 . -(Hear, hear.) He admitted that this would not be I in quantities that would materially affect British prices. THE SUN, LONDON, . SATURDAY - MORNING, FEBRUARY 26, 1842 No trade in corn worth having could be carried on at a price f from the wends of the Hon. Gentleman himself, delivered on under 60s. a quarter, in this country. There was every reason I the hustings on the day of nomination, when he had stated that to believe that certain quanties might be sold at 535. or 545. a be would oppose every proposition which gave less protection quarter, and rising from that to 60s. But tha Right Hon. ,tc the agriculturists than they then had. Having stated that, a Gentlemen referred to what had teen the case under the former few months aftervVards the Hon. Gentleman took rather a different law. He appeared to rest upon the circumstance that in the line, for he stated that the present scale was too stringent, and course of last year no corn paid more than 20s. Bd. I caused a great deal of obloquy.; for when the price was down Mr. BARING.—No importation worth considering beyond at 365. the duty was 535. Bd., being more than the price of the 20s. Bd. corn, thus rendering them liable to this obloquy, without any Mr. GLADSTONE went on to ask—Would all those Hon. benefit being derived to the agriculturists. He left it to the Gentlemen who had told them so much about the vicious ope- I House to judge of the value of these two statements. It was ration of the old Corn-law, in inducing merchants to, hold • most remarkable, that the Hon. Member had pledged himself back corn to obtain a h'gh price —would they come forward to oppose any measure that would give less protection, yet lie now with the argument that no foreign corn was intro- himself brought forward a measure for reducing protection. duced at a point of price less than 60s.—(Hear)—that be- He would now come to the second part, and let them put cause no increase of the consumption of corn took the Honourable Gentleman's two statements, relative to these place at a duty over 20s. Bd., therefore no considerable in. laws, in juxta-position one with the other. The Honourable crease could take place at a net price to the importer of 40s. ? i Gentlemen stated, that it admitted, on all hands, that the If such were the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman in- i present system of taking the averages gave very great encou stead of denouncing the old corn land, he ought to support it ragement to spa culators and persons of dishonest habits, whilst strenuously. He (Mr. Gladstone) denied the value as to de- the farmer derived little benefit from the high prices, and tails or particulars of any estimates which even the most able got all the odium. He (Mr. Christopher) also said that gentlemen, using whatever information they might, could under the present system of taking the averages the corn make as to precise prices and quantities at which importations I trade was completely in the hands of speculators. The Hon. into this country might be expected to take place. He must Gentleman had told his constituents that he had always ex confess that in matters of this kind he would put more value pressed his present opinions in the House of Commons with Upon the calculations of practical men of business than upon respect to the Corn-laws, and that he would rather adhere to the calculations of Members of Parliament, or Members of the the law as it then stood than 'attempt any experiment in the Government, however able or well informed the) might be. way of legislation. This was on the 25th of June. On the It could not be denied that there was a general feeling in the 25th of October—( The Hononourable Gentleman was country that the trade in corn would be—he should not say about to read an extract from Mr. Christopher's speech, but constantly open to the admission of quantities of grain that was met with loud cries of "Question, question.") It might would greatly affect the consumption or price—but that by be convenient for Hon. Gentlemen opposite to call Question, the present measure of the Government, the trade in but he (Mr. Horsman) wished to show them how one state• corn would be open to a very considerable degree. meat of the Hon. Gentleman was opposed to the other, and On this subject he might be allowed to refer to the testimony how, for some purposes of his own, he had recommended to of a numerous and influential class of men—the millers.— the country measures proposed by one Government which he (Hear, hear.) They certainly were not, as a class, universally supported, and opposed the same measure when introduced by favourable to the present Corn-laws ; and, for several weeks a different Government.—( The Hon. Gentleman again read past, they had been sufficiently urgent in their applications to an extract from the speech of Mr. Christopher, but amidst the Board of Trade, and in those applications, they had pleaded lond cries -of " Question, question," and " Divide.") with great ability, and had displayed an ingenuity he hardly The Honourable , Gentleman having stated so distinctly gentlemen had been that he would not supp or t an y proposition for the reduction leevaedrerssa in w t s h u e rp apsrseesde.o present movement Man of these e nst the Corn-laws, yet of protection, on the que s ti on o f a fixed duty being proposed, he they, one and all, held the doctrine that the trade, under the was ready to a-sent to a modification of the scale, and it must new law, would be opened, not permanently, perhaps, but to be remembered that he was entirely opposed to any alteration such an extent, and at such prices, that. the importation would in the law, because, he thought it would be of no benefit to the be almost constant, and not hampered, as it had been, under community at large, and he, therefore, determined to adhere to the old law ; and, in conse quence , t h ey were better sat;sfied , the law in all its bearings. He (Mr. Horsman) was justified iu Those gentlemen, he should also say, had received great support considering these statements as contradictions. He ( Mr. Chris and countenance from a large body of Members of Parliament, topher) had given a - pledge to his constituents, that •if the net exclusively of that side of the House, but of the other, Right Hon. Baronet attempted to meddle with the Corn-laws, and from gentlemen who were themselves opposed to the Corn- he should withdraw his confidence ft om him, and he (Mr. laws. He would not detain the House at further length ; lie Horsman) left it to the House to judge whether that pledge had endeavoured to show that the effect of the new mode of should be kept or not. taking the averages, even according to the estimate of the Mr. BANKS commenced by saying that if any Hon. Mern• Member for Lincolnshire, and much more, according to the ber had needed an apology it was certainly the Right Hon. estimate of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, had been Member for Portsmouth. The Ri g ht H on . G ent l eman h a d greatly and grievously exaggerated. He believed he had also stated that what he st)led the agricultural Members had been given some evidence to the Committee with respect to the its- called upon to fulfil their promises and pledges given on the portation of corn ; he had referred to the opinions of the trade hustings. His (Mr. Banks') answer was short and clear— in general, as well as to those of gentlemen who most opposed he had fulfilled his pledge, and that pledge was to contribute the whole system, and had proved, so far as such a matter was by every means in his power to the remeval of the Govern susceptible of proof at the present stage of the discussion, that went which then misgoverned the country.—(Loud cheers by the proposed plan the trade would be opened to a consider- from the Ministerial benches.) That Government which had able degree—to such a degree as would facilitate the commerce proposed financial measures only calculated to excite the ricii of the country, and afford relief to an extent consid e rably cule of every man of sense in the country. Those measures below the price named by the Right Hon. Gentleman. which no man co uld b e li eve * ere ser i ous l y proposed with a Mr. LABOUCHERE said, as he had so lately addressed view to their being carried, but solely for the purpose of em the House on this question, he should not have ventured to harrassing those who were to succeed them.—( Cheers.) The address it now, had he not been referred to by the Hon. Gen- agricultural Members, as they had been called, did not get ap tlemau who had just art down. In the first place, he must night after night exp ress i ng t h e same op i n i ons , one a f ter an complain of the s ituati on i n w hi c h the H ouse was placed with other, fatiguing the House and disgusting the country.—(Loud regard to the question of the averages by the conduct of the cheers.) A course calculated to lower the character of Parlia- Gevenament. The Hon. Gentleman said that it was tha in- anent ; and bring it down to the footing of those debating so tention of the Government to lay before them information, of cieties held out of doors. He did not mean to say the discus • which it was in possession, which would enable the House sion was not useful when raised, but he did venture to declare to form a judgment as to the manner in which the averages that superfluous discussion was not only not useful, but it was would be affected by the proposal. He did think that, con- injurious to the country, inasmuch as it impeded public busi. sidering the time during which the Government had the ness. These were the sentiments of the agricultural labourers. question under their attention, and as it was clear that it hai He referred to the poorer classes of his constituents when he also done what it said it would do, instituted a close and ex- said they were pe r f ect l y sat i s fi e d w i t h th e Mi n i s t er i a l mea tensive inq u i r y i n t o t h e su bj ect — h e did think it was hardly sure. The merchants, the traders, and petty or small re dealing fairly by the House not to have laid on the tailers whom he represented were most satisfied with the propo table that information, before they called on them, as sitian of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Hear, hear.) That they had do n e t o - n i g ht, t o decide o n th e sca l e p roposition of the Ri g ht H on . B aronet was ca ll e d a m i te b y of duties proposed. It was very well for the Honourable some Hon. Gentlemen opposite—others called it a mouse.— Gentleman to say, that if they proved that the averages would (Laughter.) But their description of it should not be taken be affected by the scale in a way he had not intended, then he to be the opinion of the peopleesind the merchants or traders would reconsider the plan. It was not fair to ask the House, of the country. He believed that all the people, both small to pledge itself to a scale of duty, with the understanding that and great, were not only satisfied with the measure, but they afterwards. they should receive such information as should be looked upon it as not only much more than they expected, but laid on the table. This was not a logical mode of proceeding, as much as they required. He would not hesitate to say he The Right Honourable Gentleman said it was a very great should prefer the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member exaggeration, when he (Mr. Labouchere) said, not positively, for Lincolnshire (Mr. Christo her) to the plan which had but in the absence of better information, that, as he now re- been suggested by the Right lon. Baronet at the head of prated, practical men were p ersua d e d that the threefold ope. of her Majesty's Government ; having opposed the Ministerial ration of the Government scale, first adding 150 towns to scheme he was told the only course left for him was either to the list from whi c h th e averages • were to be taken, next support the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member for taking the making of th ese re t urns o ut of the hands of the corn Lincolnshire, or vote fur the measures of the Hon. Gentlemen inspectors, and putti ng it i n t o th e h a nds of the Excise, and lastly opposite ; but he would rather do anything than that. preventing, in a very great degree, the practice of speculation Lord WORSLEY next addressed the House, but he was and fraudulent sales (a very great merit indeed), would affect perfectly inaudible in the reporter's gallery. The Noble Lord the aavertised averages not less than ss. a week. This calculation was understood to say, he was determined to resist the Minis was strengthened by the admission of a distinguished advocate terial measure, and that he was surprised Hon. Gentlemen on of the landed interest who denied the probability of a ss, the other (the Ministerial) side of the House, representing change, but said he believed an alteration to the amount agricultural interests, had not supported the proposition of his of 2s. would take place. But then those two shillings colleague (Mr. Christopher). 'I he country saw that what were attributed to one cause alone. It was not unreasonable ever party was in power an alteration in the Corn-laws would to suppose that the other two causes would have an effect of take place. The question with the country was, whether 35. more. He was sure the Right Hon. Gentleman would re- they should accept the measure which had been men deem the pledge h e gave , th a t h e wou ld ma k e a p roport i onate tio ne d by th e N o bl e L ord, or that which had been allowance in hi s s lidi ng sca l e if it were prove d t o hi m t h at t h e proposed by th e Ri g h t H onoura b le Baronet. Had not averages would he considerably affected by his plan.—( Hear, the country most decidedly answered the question ? hear.) But he (Mr. L.) was unwilling to go into the details of He thought they had by the Gentlemen they had sent t o this part of the s ubj ec t un til th e H ouse h a d b een i n possess i on repr esen t th em -i n that House—(Hear, hear)—and he would of the returns that had been moved for, and also the inform- put it to his Hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln whether it Lion and papers which the Government. had promised to .lay would be better that he should sacrifice his own opinion for the before them. In the meantime he would read to the House a sake of unanimity ?—( Hear, hear.) All that they had to-look few figures which a friend had procured for him from the for was that the plan agreed to should afford legitimate protec 'library, respee.ing the effect of the London averages on the ge- tion to the British market. He conceived that this would be extra averages of the county, and be need not repeat that the most completely accomplished by the plan laid dawn by the addition of 150 towns, would geatly affect the London av e r age s. Right Honourable Baronet. A farmer, of great property, said tan the 25th of June last the general average was 635. ; the that he could put corn free on board at Lubeck for Sus. per London average was 68s. 3d ; the average at Bristol was 60s. quarter ; the shipment and other charges from Lubeck to Hull When they thus saw the effect of the London average on the could be ss. 4d., so that the corn of that country would come general average, he thought the addition of 150 market towns into the Hull market without the duty at about 345. I Id. ; might affect the general average to a very material extent. On add the duty, 165., to this, and you have a price of 50s. 11d. the 15th of August the general average was 725. In London Notwithstanding this, he thought the British agriculturist had the average was 765. 9d. He thought these figures proved the nothing to fear from the Danish market ; for, if they lost at important effect of the London average on the general average about the middle of their prices they gained in their averages.— of the country.—( Hear, hear.) And how great must be the (Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) He would state result, if they diminished the effect of London, by adding so the difference of price between the seven large markets and many towns to the list? He confessed, from the perusal ho the 143 others : on the week ending Sept. 10; le4l, when the gave the towns, it appeared to him the Government acted with duty was brought down to Is. in the seven large markets, viz., great haste and precipitation in their selection of the towns.— London, Wakefield, Leeds, Hull, Liverpool, le ewcast:e, and ( Hear.) He would mention two instances of such h as t e . I n Derby, 36,849 quarters were entered at an average price of the list the name of New Pollington appeared--a town which 7 5 5., whilst in the remaining 143 places, where 36,066 quarters was not to be found in the map of England, and which, in were entered, the average price was only 675. 3ed., which fact, was no• a town at all, but merely a village.—(Laughter.) showed the great benefit in his opinion of having 150 The town of New. Romney was also set down ; and as it was others placed amongst the towns from which the averages snould in Kent, the Hon. Member for. that place would perhaps cur- be taken, as they would act as a cheek on the large markets. rect him, and inform him if there was such a market at all.— In conclusion, he was sure that though the Right Hon. Ba ( Hear.) When he found such marks- of haste on the part of eonet's measure might not meet the extreme views of any the Government, it considerably diminished the confidence he party, that moderate men, whether manufacturers or should otherwise feel in the assurance of the Right Hon. Gen- agriculturists, would think it such a measure as the exi tleman that he did n.t intend his new mode shruld affect the gencies of the time, and the increasing population, demanded. averages ; but he (Mr. Labouchere) thought that if he consi- He then should therefore support his scale as far as wheat was de-red the subject more, he would agree with him and the Hon. concerned, and he hoped that his Hon. Friend, seeing that it Member f o r Lincolnshire that the result would be that the aye- was impossible to carry his scale---( Hear, hear)—would give rages, and consequently the duties, would be mate- way in favour of the motion of the Hight Honourable Baronet. rially affected by the manner in which he proposed to Mr. WALLACE said that the people looked on this mea take them. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-Presi- sure as a delusion and an imposition ; for himself, he was so dent of the Board of Trade thought he gave a conclusive an- thoroughly convinced of the advantage of total repeal, that he mfr to his. Right Hon. Friend, when ,:he ; stated the impute- thought it would-be best for him to leave the Honourable tion of the towns, but the population of-the . small towns was Gentlemen opposite, to patch up their work as they pleased, by no means a proof of what the Right Hon. Gentleman and to do their best to oppress the people. He hoped the sought to prove by it. He heard with regret the announce- Honourable Member would bring this motion to a division, merit made by the Right Hon. Gentleman with regard to the which wsuld show to the people who it was that wished for intention of Government upon the point they had so long higher rates.—(Cheers.) The scale of the Right Hon. considered of imposing duties on flour to be imported from the Baronet had been made carefully, cautiously, and most ju- United States into Canada. He would not enter into the diciously for this object, that the wheat growing coun constitutional point, but he heard the Right Hon. Gentleman ties of England should be well protected, because say, as well as he could understand him, that while he gave the greater number of voters in that House were agriculturists. his reasons for retaining the duties on the importation of --(Cries of " No, no ") No, no ! Let them look at the flour from America across the berdere he cons id ere d suc h a course country, an d t h ey wou ld find that what he said was true to the would be a constitutional one.—(" No," from Mr. Gladstone.) letter ; they would find that south of London the .climate for He thought it a strained construction to say it was compe- growing corn was the best in the country, and see how many tent for the House of Commons to levy such a duty. He votes they had from that part of the country. He might be doubted whether they were not violating the spirit of the De- wrong—(Hear, hear, from the Tories)—if he were so, he was claratory Act, in proposing a duty of that kind. He begged to open to conviction, but he was not to be turned from the point ask for what reason, and for whose benefit that duty was pro- by Hon. Gentleman opposite. Ile had deep interest in the laws posed ?He meant to make the widest distinction between those that were passed regarding the colonies, its which he had a deep duties and o th er colonial duties. lie believed the avowed aim stake ; but he never interfered with them, because humanity and obj ec t o f t h e duty was to protect the landowners of Eng- on the one hand, and good government on the other, demand land, and he would say, on the part of the colony, that though ed of him that he should not oppose those laws. He would say, it might not be beyond the power of th e I mper i a l L eg i s l ature, then, to Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that if they were not like yet, looking at the Declaratory Act, he believed they would be Caesar's wife, above suspicion, he would call on them to look violating it. He would not follow the Right Hon. Gentleman abroad, and see whether the working men had any other belief in all the calculations he had made in answer than that this measure was proposed for the total destruction of to his Right Honourable Friend the Member for Portsmouth their interests. See how this affected the country. The Bank He found that the papers laid on the table were at variance with of England was, about to take off the screw, which would give his own statements, and he therefore threw over the whole them a gleam of prosperity. Whether the Government had mass of evidence. 'He stated that he had consulted distin- any interest or not the Bank of England he did not guished persons, and hefound they were of a contrary opireon, know, but he rejoiced that they were going to and that he preferred their st a t emen t s t o th ose of, the different t a k e o ff t h e screw, b ecause though the relief which Consuls that had been mentioned. lie did not think it neces- it would afford would be only temporary, it still would be a sary to trouble the Committee at any greater length, but he relief to his suffering countrymen. He believed the sliding could not sit down without expressing his surprise that the scale would do little or no good to trade, though he expected Right Hon. Gentleman should have emitted to address himself something from the letter from the United States, which the at all to the question brOught before the House by the Hon. Right Hon. Baronet had read to them. If he drew a correct Member for Lincolnshire.—( Hear, hear.) He thought, con- inference from that letter, the result would be that we should sidering the manner in which the agriculturists had been have a trade in flour with America.—( Hear, hear.) Not long treated by the Government, they were in a sorry plight, ago he (Mr. Wallace) brought before the House the state of He had the greatest respect for aim Hon. Gentleman, but he the country. In Renfrewshire, he had heard since, and he must say that his manifestation of hostility to the Bill of the believed it to be a fact, that their countrymen in the United Right Hon. Baronet was not very serious.—( Hear, hear, and States had sent them a gift of flour and pork out of charity, a laugh.) The lion. Gentleman made his speech, and satis- and he (Mr. Wallace) supposed an application would soon be fled his constituents in a manner which no doubt they would made to know whether this flour and pork were to be re appreciate ; but clearly he had no serious intention o f p ress i ng ce i ve d d u t y f ree , or w h e th er these unfortunate paupers were his motion upon the H o use, and i n that he ex?rcised a very t o p a y th e d u ty. F or h is (M r . Wallace 's) part, he hoped that sound discretton.—( Cheers and laughter.) not only on this occasion might flour and pork b e a d m itt e d Sir J. TYRRELL wished to explain his own views upon the duty free, but that soon they should have no duty whatever, question before the House, as Hon. Members on his side of either on corn, or provisions, or any other commodity : He could not retort the interest, and as the representative of an agricult ura l di s t r i ct, the House were taunted w ith being attached to the silent sys- Mr. FLEMING said that as a frien d of the agricultural tem. —( Hear. hear, and laughter.) little • argument.— the measure introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head compliment, for in the seven nights' debate there had been on he felt it his imperative duty to declare his entire approval of the other side a great deal of sound andvery they h a d he had •d on each side of the House this evening, but not said communicationsreceive upon th e subject, that that (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Two Hon. Gentlemen had spoken of the Government. He had reason to believe from all the one word that touched the proposition of his Hon. Friend, the measure had given universal satisfaction to the agricultural in ) But he could terest throughout the country ; and he could not therefore re sayMember for Lincolnshire. —( Hear, bea r .' • partiality induced him frain from expressing a hope that the Hon. Member for Lin that his prejudices and Pa • correct. colnshire would withdraw the motion then before the House. circumstances ofof the might be confidence__that sorry that the Right • Honourable Gentleman the Mr. CHARLES WOOD said that he was exceedingly lieto hope eoosi considered that tba t t h these c t a b lc e ul p a e ti e o u n li s ar Right Hon. Baronet the Vice-President of the Board of • the on both sides of in the House during the delivery of the speech g i l o e u a s t o ta a l o en d ts o , f fr t o b m e the high c io har tb ac e te ß r , ig Trade had not been concededbe eonet and the Government of the Hon. Member for So mersetshire. That Hon. Gentle. . a condition to deal with man, whos e . opinions upo n the subject then under the con theMember for Tamworth, it would the House that the Right Hon. Bar the House any manner sideration of the House were entitled to the greatest respect, by which ,he was supported we b r e e for in e hesitation in saying that from his connexion bo th with agriculture and with commerce, question more immediately throughout the .t coun o try,.and that lad shown the arithmetical mistakes into which the Right they might think fit. He had no there was but one feeling was a feeling of contempt fur the Pr°P (T i ou rn d u che l h t e Noble Hon. Gentleman had fallen. It appeared, from the speech Lord on the other side of the Howe. - - cheers from the of the Hon. Member for Somersetshire, that the difference Ministerial benches.) Ile believed that the Hon. Member between the declared averag es i n diff erent towns had, on one for Li nco l ns hi re was a b etter friend tot he agricult ura l occasion, amounted to as much as 7s. a quarter. The Right by whom he wa s sun. interest than many o f t h ose Hon. the Vice-Pr es id en t o f t h e B oar d o f T ra d e h ad treated niunded. Wi t h regar d to the large majo ri ty of 300 t h e i dea of such a variation as an absurdity ; but the Hon. m e m f or ber .I erhatop:on, Memb er f or S omeree t s hi re h a d di st i nct l y stated that the dif .o against the motion of th e Hon. he rememb ere d w h en l as t h e introducet his measure, th e f erence in the declared averages in sever, large towns' and ]louse was in a n ex t raor d inar y state. e t t 1 m rheebby, and h e to no less than 7s a quarter in the of September, 1841. w as no person t h e rema i n i ng one hundred andforty-three towns, had amounted in the G a ll ery and only two po l icem en i n thought that if he had taken a show of hand.s amongst the cab The Right Hon. Baronet had introduced a great number of men in Pal ace - yar d , t h e d ec i s ion would have been gi ven new towns i n h i s Bill. But he had not given the House tie against hi m. H e must confess t h a t plac h ein g that great con fi - reasons which guided him in the selection of those towns. fidenenceceinwathefeßltigbhytthHeocno-ty t r Gentleman h w hich did, whi c h con- Many. were of opinion that the result of that change in the asa nhembdividual existing law would be considerably t o di m i n i s h t h e averages , should not be doi ng his d un uty if he did not vote for the props,- and thus to raise the duty ; and he (Mr. C. Wood) hoped, sition befo re t h e H ouse. that if it appeared that such would be the result of that provi- Mr. HOR SMAN said that t h e Hon. Member f or Li n- sion in the measure, the Right Hon. Baronet would either colnshir e came forward as the r epresentative of a great omit those towns, or that he would reduce the scale in propor constituency, an d his opinion derived importance from tion. There was another part to which he wished to allude ; the Hon. Gentlem a n being one of a large classs who he meant the proposed duty upon wh ea t i m p or t e d from the entertained th e same op i n i on as the Hon. Gentleman. H e Un i te d Statesinto Canada. He had understood the Right Ho (Mr. Horsman) was prepared to prove, from the Hon. Gen- nourable Gentlemen to state, that if the duty he proposed to tleman's own word s , that he had pursued two lines of conduct ; impose upon wheat imported from Canada into this further, that h e h a d set d own s t a tements which he had co n t ra - country , were assented to by the House, he shou ld t h en dieted, and gi ven pos i t i ve p l e d ge s which he had since broken, be prepared to give up the 3s. duty, which he had intended to First, he had stat e d th a t h e w ould not listen to any proposal for h av e levied upon wheat imported from the United States into any alteration whatever in the Corn-laws; and in the next place Canada. He hoped he had not misunderstood the statement of he had stated that he would not oppose protection, but that he the Right Hon. Gentleman, and if he were wrong, he wished he would oppose every attempt to lower that protection. With might be corrected, as tt.e point was of considerable importance. . regard to the first statement, he (Mr. Horsman) would quote ' With respect to the proposed levels in the scale of the Govern. ► that he would not adhere exclusively to the present Corn-law." That was very good.--( Hear, hear.) " Now, he said notling o' of the kind, but that he would adhere to that law, because he never heard of any measure so just to the agricultural interest as -. it was. If any measure could be proposed that would give. : greater p ro t ec ti on th an th e presen t h e wou ld • u pport it ; but 'l l, . he would opp ose an y measure th a t wou ld t en d to diminish that", protection. H e l oo k e d upon Si r G eorge (M urra y) as one M , i. : e , ;', l the most trimming, shuffiing—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—. ,etiv, persons, an d if Si r R o b ert P ee l a d m i tte d hi m ( Si r G e orge) or. e s ' his brother-in-law George Dawson, into the Administration , he,el ''' would have no con fidence in the Government. He never ; il, had professed o pi n i ons i n one p l ace an d d eparte d f rom them in': 5E' 5 i another. lie never would desert the party to which he wa,s, ,4 '', attached, nor the principles which he professed, so long as that b , is', party adhered to those principles. He was the same now as he e erili," , had always been. The Noble Lord seemed too much s hackles'. I ;t° and controlled by the influence of party feelines in favour of the, ; .f 1, , : present Government. Ile a ll owe d those feelings to preva il to ,e.. „ a baneful extent in influencing a n d con t ro lli ng his judgmen t ,: .•': and he would sacrifice his own feelings to support his party. .4 ' Non', if his (Mr. Duncombe's) e ars did not deceive him, and be , was sure the House too, ho had heard the Hon. Gent., in answer to his Noble Friend, his colleague, say that he would propose 0 duty of .255. He said, that if it came to this, tl.at the carrying of such a measure would throw out the present Government, lie would propose it. He had, he said, S 9 much confidence, •:', in the present Government, and so much dislike to the Whigl that, or course, he should prefer th e l ess o f t wo evils, sn ip should accept the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet at th.! ~ head of the Government. And yet, that Hon. Member claimed. such independence of feeling, and he accused his Noble Friel: d of being so much addicted and attached t o th e p ar ty to %hi e , ' :'!"' lie belonged !—( Hear, hear.) Why, the oth e r even i ng he hes".. the Right Honourable Baronet's talents an d a bili t i e s greed,' . ', praised, but he (Mr. T. Duncombe) must 51 ~n'' !w hen he heard those quslites so praised, th a t th e y wer e prsis ~ at the expense of his political integrity. He (Mr Dunconthe/ .- would not pay the Right Hon. Baronet so b a d a co mplimen t ' ' - He believed the Right Hen. Baronet to b e s i ncere i n the on' •'*. tiers which he had introduced to the House, and laid upon table for their adoption and approbation. H e wou ld be told that the Right Hon. Baronet was drawn back, that there'll's' • a drag behind him, and that be could not go so much in ad„ . .' vance as his opinions and good sense inclined hi m to do. n e -.. (Mr. Duncombe) did not believe one wor d o f it. He he - '") lieved the Right Hon. Baronet had intr o d uce d th e measure r ."',i which he thought best for the benefit of the country. He differ, ;. 2 . with the Right Hon, Baronet, and thought that the m easure .• t was a perfectly delusive anti useless one. - In . 11534, wh en , e ' e : the Right Hon. Baronet accepted office, he said upon th a t e' l "! occasion (and he believed that that w ou ld equa lly aPI4 • , e; throughout the whole of his political life), th it he neve r ; ''l would accept of office to be an apostate from his former prig' 2- 1 ciples. The Right Hon. Baronet wa s no t now an apostate. 3.,. from his former principles. He had advocated the sliding ;' , I scale, and he had given them the sliding scale now, but in ' ln : . ' 1 other form. He ( Mr. D.) was not one of those who wee .1 disappointed at the measure the Government proposed. r''• :,.. never expected from that Government anything better. He never expected any thing good from the Gov. rninen t '. concurring as he now did, and as h e h a d former l y . . • done with the sentiments expressed of it by the Right H° ° 4 e , Baronet at the head of the Home Departm en t, w h en in /c° • the Right Hon. Gentleman said that it was a Government ceni c i ' posed of men who spent all their li ves i n proposi ng ha measures and obstructing good ones. He did not kno w whether these were the precise terms used on that occasion by the Right Hon. Baronet, but the spirit o: his observations oa e such as he had given. He (Mr. Duncombe) must say that th e , eioveroment which they had now, was exactly o f tits' ,• description. How the Right Hon. Baronet, the Me n ': ber fur Dorchester, could reconcile those sentiments with 1; **,. • measures of the present Government, or how he c ou ld reconc , v . ~, his sitting in the same Cabinet which propo se d the measur e r .; , * ;' now introduced, it was not for him (Mr. D.) to say. Ont"i ** , k more contemptible measure, or one less calc u l a t e d to .n * ? the exigencies of the country never was i n t ro d uce d to tha t i House. They had all heard of the man who held a farthing t e' i i i i candle to the sun.—(Laughter.) Now, th a t was a gre a 4 ' statesman—(Renewed laughter)—and it was much ,to be re • • gretted that that individual was no where to be found, for in deed he ought to be a Member of the present Cabinet.l (Laughter.) However in his absence they certainly ou ght, s!, . the best substitute, to place the Honourabl e M e mber fu• • North Lincolnshire (Mr. Christopher) •in the C a ; binet. There were one or two points that had he e l urged as arguments and objections on that (the Oppositio n / side of the House against the present Bill, that had never li! b to the present moment been answered. One of those points " took as the disadvantages arising to America froth the s lidilj scale. The Right Hon. Baronet had the other ev ening stn „ that he knew nothing about America. America was not e r i far off as they seemed to think. The Hon. and Gallant Mem°, for Marylebone (Sir C. Napier) wanted to prove that it v'''' . further off by giving a notice for to-morrow of a motion r_ e to specting the passage of certain vessels to and fru r America. The Right Hon. Baronet said they were not sof a off America, and they thought that within six weeks Ch et ' - could get flour from New York ; that an order might be se ° o out by steam, and would be back within six weeks. Nov r e f,„h this commerce? Was it free trad e u p on a f oo ti ng u pon "n o ..- the American corn trade ought to b e carr i e d on ? What to •*,,' Americans wanted was a certain market to which they c° e b „ bring their corn. They wanted a m ar k e t to wil ; ce ..• they could bring their ships laden with the prou u d ~. of their own country, to go back laden with the manufactu r be , of this country, which they would obtain in e x c hange. 11.° . .„,, • , sure they bad given an answer to the American people, ur: e , this point, with regard to the advantages of the position,, ,- which they were placed. They now for the first time ,o, , posed a duty of 3s. upon any corn coming from Cao, ‘.. - 0 , , !, Of course that was one of the advantages of their postal) .. •^' The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool (Lord Sarl e had last night said that they had sent out, upon a special In% ' , , 1 . , sion to America, a Noble Lord (Lord Ashburton), who se a d e ,ii most courageous Nobleman. Now he (Mr. Duncombe) ha , t o:, ei : no doubt that that noble individual was a most 4 10 _ 1 % 0 ,' v' person in private lite, but that he was a courageous noble on • , ,14 , i he had never heard before. In that House that Noble Per t io' 0 . had ever shown the greatest indecision of cbaractert ne d , „ ; el greatest infirmity of purpose that was ever e e rj- tfie ,-',' on the part of any individual who addresse. o ..ible ' e' House.—( Hear, hear, hear.) . It was totally irer' - ‘ ,ot after he hail addressed the House to know wi.at side be IT I ' - 0 ,) to take. Yet that individual was described as a most courag e , pg. ' . I 'i nobleman.—( Hear, hear, much laughter;*and cries of " Q u ilt, .4'i tion.") That was the question—it was the question last 511 0 , •..1 1 and was it nut so now ? If he was a co uragef., o ' fl i ,e nobleman last night, how had he lost his mu l , r d 7 s t ..: to-day ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) That noble indict h of ',,,e' had always been opposed to the popular interest. Il e die. e 4 during the time of the Reform Bill, evinced the greatest id ~, ,i trust of the popular interest.—( Hear, hear, and crie?,hi .• 1 , r e .. Question," and " Order, order.") They had talked 0t • i s t'; ; d special mission, and yet they did not want to know svh,a e 'i d e , '' .o l it really was. Well, he would not tell tnv ii ,4,, —( Loud laughter.) The Americans would kW/ t ilr' 4 Notwithstanding that that individual might be a c ouragtot! fli t nobleman—notwitl.standing the compliments paid him by ee lf ;" Hon. Member for Liverpool, he (Mr. Duncombe) w e iei'; i s/, tell them that he would not carry out with `,; io te :g it i the confidence of this country, and he would rt..."!' .9 , carry back with him the confidence of America. ,I. fie ,i'l. If the Government would hold out to the country the c°' o .': ,e / . . of free trade—if they would only open their ports to the e° c ot ,''•,' merce and enterprise of America, they wou ld then ° o o' :"* a union between the two countries—they would then hay.r ece e s' boundaries about which to dispute—they would have no fortnio e tions to raise, they would have no jealousies to allay.—((jbeerde, , * If they only held out to that country t h e h an d o f f re e iri s 0 ~' they would cement ::, a union that w ou ld ,redounn. n d, their own honour, and promote the interests of manblest The Hon. Member for North Lincolnshir e had stated r T ee • fourteen nights were usele ss ly was t e d i n t h at d e bate. e ' . ;,, e, (Mr. Duncombe) was not aware that fourteen nights vt,er eee te . 4 0, wasted. It was a calculation somewhat like what hen,' y;st' made with regard to wh at, he had no doubt.—( Hear, 11 7;e. , il . ' But if fourteen nights bad been so con-umed, they were c it, . le, , sumel in asserting a principle which, they mi g ht depend ° sr ° , )•! „ , / e was acceptable to the great body of the people. —( Hear, " t oe '"i But the last night's debate was worth the whole of the Joel ell; tree,. They had heard two speeches last ni g ht which 'a e f j j open the eyes of the people of England. They hear d V i°,il the speech of the Hon. Member for Stockport, whie". ( 14 , been listened to as if he was talking to the ; I v „ Ise e s° i but the people of England would read it, and e sti. ) , hail no doubt, that from its ability, its arg uri t i e r iSE: ae, and its truth—( Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Miril ° Ae;, etP„ benches)—it would make a deep impression upon the Into c e —(Hear, hear.) But there was another speech made blob . ] Hon. Member for Knaresborough, and the manner in : v . ill 0 1 4 ' it had been received by the Conservative Tory P ar ' i c oht ii),/ House, and by the Ministers on the Treasury bench, ° v iol ' e tv, open the eyes of the people of England._—(Loud cheers oh. I >' the 3!inisterial benches, and counter-cheers from the OP- P eori tion. ) It would open the eyes of the manufacturing intetto • , ,s° the country.—( Hear, hear.) The manner in which that sql ( ler el had been received showed that Gentlemen on the other ho ed , and the great Ministerial majority which followed, had de o ,' r . open war against the manufacturers.—(Cries of " NA. O . - 0./ It was too late for them now to say " No, no."-o: l— eder He could only say that that the grosser the insult, the I ° o o were their cheers—the fouler the calumny, the , o na g er rapturous was their applause—e( Cheers, anti cries of ' o plf, ' order")—the intensity of the Ministerial exultation was o f et • regulated by the malignity of the libel.—(Oh, and ° L e wd; * Order, order.") Yes, he said they showed a feeling °' .. 4 0 , tation. He saw the Right Hon. Baronet (the S e crets"ele , State for the Home Department) chuckle.—(Laughte r ees) saw the Right Hon. Baronet (the Paymaster of the eie w ber shake his portly sides—(Laughter)—when the Hon. .°l ii ont •'': for Knaresborough read to the House his foul and no °PR'', ''' communications—aye, and anonymous too.—( Cries of a 0 ,, it,,i., no," from the Ministerial benches.) They might dePe u t 00' , ;' . l these doings would : not last. They had professed gre° te:,,ee,,i pathy for the distress of the people, but Wh en :o o 4)) wards the close of last Session, he (Mr. Dun, c- oertl ! stated what the woes and sufferings of the peop le . 115°' .s' he was told they were exaggerated, hut they we re :06 1 acknowledged and co n fi rme d, an d the lion. M em ber for said that those repre sen t a ti ons were rather un d er than e t io . ..so ) rated.—( Hear.) But let him (Mr: Duncombe) t e h n t ottl i that the suffering people wanted something more su''.' t r i e : r qtr than their lip sympathy. They had been waiting with ottO,isee tience for four or five months to see how you would deal iegrelP their misfortunes—they wanted to see if you had the hnd'Ke.A nuity to untie, or the courage to cut, the Gordis° .tb r el on a ii .. . 4 which a sordid aristocracy fastened, not only oes d d industry and labour of the people but on the comfortS_ t besti, istence of the poor. They find you deficient m et a etS - 01", qualities, and the Ministry might depend upon it they or n . eel"; the hour and lament the policy which induced then to r egsrlo.P . days of peace, and in the plenitude of their povreet ettoi ettLig. • with so little favour and so little indulgence that In° n. ( I r,T o iteti mittedto them by the Hon. Member for WolverhamP t° ,, e o/1 e g r i Hon. Member resumed his seat in the midst of loud c"„ 0 0, th jf", Mr. A. O'BRIEN said it was not his intention t? o _ . " op . OS" House to come to a division without stating his opinion sta til I ° , question before them. He also rose for the purpose ?,, as , 30,,,,,, it, that it was very hard to remember what had been 5 0 ° 0 00: ?„' hustings.—( Laughter.) He did not know how Hot see eblifi,, ,, , , men who were in the habit of haranguing public r oe ,. 0 11 4, :. were accustomed to weigh their sentiments, but he rs ', ooi i vin!,,, when he spoke he spoke to honest men, who undo of si' was honest, and he slid not proceed on the plan o, °! . e 1 ,-; much and meaning as little as possible.—( Lau... 1 ) 1 5 ° 0 4i SI I :_ Noble Lord the late Secretary for Foreign Affair t, 0 0 , other had stated that they received the announcenevreasn 0001;1; Right Hon. Baronet in ominous silence, and suet , , t on the - tuation of the unfortunate country gentlemen, that ce..eit°l side they were te.:used of saying too much, . 4 " osUrie ° ,' other, of saying too little. —(Laughter. ) He (-11r,'.. Barone ii; did not cheer that announcement of the Rigt.t I T on, b it t o but he employed the interval since, not in with to , 0 . ascertaining the sense of his constituents with r e g a. as u f the the announcement. He had consulted as many 0 :„hing „ could, arid be had to tell the House, that after vc . VO , 60 00 proposition of the Government, and considering . tf il ' at pe os ~ stances of the caee, they authorised him to support ' But he "' sition.—(Loud cheers.) He should stop there. iOO w i th, say a few words in praise of that spirit which they met that proposal.--( Hear, ° ls t ea c r ° , ll . _a_n i i i i , ch w ee b l : l ) o - lie thought that when that large mar :_ 4, ,;.„, the landed interest was liai s e to t", e, taken into consideration, they must veld lar t g ° e .e l ) ,E, nter est :7 6 moderation and the concessions made by the lannidnlolists bete (Hear, hear.) If they chose to call them far nu far fron t be bter ~ mist say that so far as their late debates Pr c rate.—( La h ug t in monopolists they appeared to be very in • from the Opp - ssition benches.) He did acceding to that measure he bound himself h neficial t° , of '. 1 tiler mi difications if he considered them country.—( Hear, hear.) 130 locking to theecirctunstaov' notatcaondsti:rrotilfto b r 0. ment, he confessed that he could draw no other conclusion from I the fact of their having been adopted, except that, at a certain point, at least, it was thought that a fixed duty would be of advantage to the agriculturist. What he conceived to be the real point under discussion, was the effect of that duty upon the price of cor❑ in this country. He thought that the protection proposed by the Government was sufficient to keep the price up to 60s. He hoped that the Hon. Member for Essex would find that the Government was right, and he ( Mr. C. Wood) was mistaken in that opinion. He knew not, however, upon what else they could proceed but the official documents produced by the Government in support of the'r own measure, and he must say that those papers by no means tended to show the accuracy of the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement as to the price at which foreign corn could be imported into this country. In considering that question he thought the fairest test would be to take the ave rage prices at which corn could be laid down in our own coun try, because the natural question was at what price foreign corn could come into competition with English corn in the market. It was quite true, as had been stated, that it was impossible for the Legislature to fix the pr ice of corn in this or in any other country, because an abundant harvest must necessarily have the effect of lowering the price ; but, on the other hand, it was not impossible for the Legislature to fix a maximum price by allowing foreign corn to come into competition with Eno-- corn in the market. He had been surprised to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman declare that they could not be sure that the price would not exceed 56s.—he thought it had been assumed throughout the debate that that was the maximum price.—(Hear, hear.) If that were not so, he was utterly at at a loss to understand upon what they had been debating. If that price, or any other price, were assumed, say 575. or 585., then the price at which any great quantity of foreign corn could be laid down in this country, became a most essential point of discussion. Now, upon the whole, it appeared that 455. was the average price at which two million quarters of wheat could be imported. All the returns gave 455. as the average price. The best test which could be applied to ascertain that was the price at which fo reign corn had been sold in this country. It appeared that no quantity of corn had ever been sold which would not pay to the foreign holder 455. If Hun. Gentlemen referred to any year since the passing of the present law, and on finding a great quantity of corn paying a high duty, deducted that duty from the average price of wheat, the difference would, of course, be the price which it paid to the foreign holder. In 1839, there were 130,000 quarters, paying a duty of 20s. Bd., the average price throughout England was 675. ld., leaving a price to the importer of 475. 3d. In the year 1830, 127,000 quar ters paid 20s. Bd, the average price was 655. 4d., leaving to the holder of foreign corn a price of ..4s. Bd. In the year 1831, about 7,000 quarters also paid as high a duty as 20s. Bd. ; the price then was 655., leaving to the holder of foreign corn a price of 455. In 1832, 150,000 quarters paid 20s. Bd., and then the price was 665. ; but the duty soon after wards rose considerably, so as almost to prohibit the importa tion of foreign corn. In 1833, 1834, 1835, and 1836, there was no corn imported. In 1837 a large quantity of corn came in, and the price paid to the holder was only 275. 10d., but that corn had been in the warehouse for four or five years, and was evidently sold from the impossibility of holding it any longer. The Right Hon. Gentleman would not contend ; that that in the least affected the average price. It appeared, according to all the returns, that 455. was the average price, and that at less than that price it was not worth importing. A duty of 16s. added to 455., would bring the price to 61s. It was not till the price in the English ,market had reached 585., 595., or 603., that foreign corn came practically into competition with British corn. He wished before he proceeded to correct a misstatement of his Right Hon. Friend with respect to the ave rage price in Jersey. The average price there for ten years, under a system of free trade, was 51s. 3d It was not, however, alto. gether a matter of price; quantity must be takeu into the cal culation. From the Consular returns it appeared that two millions of quarters was the average quantity, and that there was no probability at present of an increase. If that were so, it was impossible to suppose that the quantity of corn admitted for consumption in this country could materially affect the price, and the agriculturists might be sure that their interests would not be injured by the present or any other measure, if 60s. was the utmost to which they considered themselves enti tled. The question was a mere matter of figures, and though lie knew how dull and tiresome it must be to the House, he was most anxious that it should be dispassionately discussed. It was the only way to come to a reasonable conclusion as to what the effect of the scale proposed was likely to be. There was no difficulty in making exciting speeches both on one side and the other, but he wished it to be treated as a matter of figures and of business, otherwise he perfectly agreed with the opinion that the credit of the House might suffer from such a discussion. He believed that the scale proposed would not benefit the consumer by admitting corn at low prices, but that it scorned was not the opinion of the Government; and he should be exceedingly glad, if it passed into a law, to find that he was mistaken, that the Go vernment was right, and that the consumer had secured a benefit, which he confessed he did not anticipate. That such, were the professions, and no doubt the purposes of the Govern ment, if they were carried out, he believed, though up to the present moment it had not been shown that it was so.— ( Question, question.) There was no other point in what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman to which he thought it neces sary to advert, and though there were some other observations which he should have been gild to have addressed to the Committee, he knew how tiresome and dull a discussion of this sort must be, and he should refrain from doing so. Mr. GLADSTONE explained what had fallen from him in the early part of the debate as to the effect of the new towns on the averages, which was to the effect that to make a diffe rence of two shillings a quarter on the whole averages, the price of corn in the new towns must be 7s. a quarter less than the price in the other places. Mr. LABOUCHERE put a question to the Hon. Gentle man as to the intentions of the Government with respect to corn and flour imported from America into the Canadas and the British cohinies in North America. Mr. GLADSTONE said, as soon as the House had agreed to the resolution of the Right Hon. Baronet he would explain the course to be taken. He stated that it was not intended to levy any additional duty on wheat imported from America into Canada; and with respect to flour, which was at present absolutely.pro hibited, the importation being timed, and contrary to law, it was intended to admit it into Canada on the same terms at which it was admitted into all the other colonies. (Both the question and answer were almost inaudible. ) Mr. T. DUNCOIII BE said, what ad just passed across the table was no doubt of the highest importance ; hut himself, and the Hon. Gentlemen around him, had unfortunately been unable to hear a word of it ; am+ he should nit have ven tured to intrude h mself on the House, if, like his Honourable Friends, he had previously had the honour of addressing them two or three times on this important question. But as far as he was concerned, they should not be delayed from bringing this contemptible farce to a close—(Hear, hear)—by any lengthened observations from him. But. he did think it was due to the great constituency, and the numerous and varied interests he had the honour to represent, that he should tell them what he thought, and, he believed, what they thought of the whole of these proceedings.—( Hear, hear. ) 'she Hon. Member who had introduced, what he, in his sim plicity as a country gentleman, thought. was an amendment to the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet, had laid his tariff on the table, and he wished to tell them what he thought of that also. His opinion was not only formed from what he had seen and heard, but was also collected from the put lie prints in other places. On a former occasion the Noble Lord, the colleague of the Honourable Member for North Lincolnshire, addressed the House, arid alluded to sonic speech that had been made to the wiseacres of Lincolnshire, and had called on her Maje ty's Ministers— an appeal which to this moment had never been answered—had called on them to state whether they had consulted the Hon. Member with regard to the plan they had proposed. They had said they had never consulted him ; he said they had never availed themselves of his great ability—(Laughter).— with regard to the measure they intended to introduce. He was no pilot balloon.—(.Laughter.) Some Hon. Gentlemen had accused the Hon. Member with being the pilot balloon of her Majesty's Ministers. 'I he organ of the party—the Times— also accused him of being the pilot balloon ; but he was not one. It would be an in sult to himself, and an insult to the wiseacres of North Lin colnshire. The Hon. Member ought to recollect that many great men had been in the habit of availing themselves of pilot balloons—geniuses as great as the Hon. Member himself, or the freenolders of North Lincolnshire..—( Great laughter. ) He must know that 111oliere kept an old woman—( Roars of laughter)—his housekeeper, and to this old woman he used alsva3s to read his comedies before they were introduced to the public—( Loud laughter)—and he used to say that he could always tell the impression his pieces would make on the public by the impression which they made on his old woman. —( Cheers and laughter.) Another distin guished individual, a very lively and venerable authority—a Prebendary of St. Paul's, Sydney Smith, had said (he be lieved the advice was given to the Noble Lord, late the leader of that House, but it was equally applicable to the Right Hon. Baronet), that every great man ought to keep a "foolometer." —(Great laughter.) Far be it from him to say that the Mem ber for North Lincolnshire was the " foolometer " of the Right Hon. Baronet —( Laughter) —or that the • freeholders of Lincolnshire were his " foolometers," or the " fool motors " of the Right Honourable Gentleman himself.—(Laughter.) The Honourable Member had denied it, and he (Mr. D.) announced on his own authoritity, that he was not the Right Honourable Baronet's foolometer—that he was not his pilot balloon. He had, however, got up a little balloon of his own, but it was one entirely of hrs own inflation —( Laughter)—he had got it up, but how it is to descend, the Honourable Gentleman did not seem to know ; he was at that moment in the agonies of descent, but whether it would alight on the table, or under the table, or in the galleries, it was impossible to say.—( Great laughter.) All he (Mr. T. Duncornbe) would say, was, that he should not assist him in giving him a safe descent—(Great laughter)— but he would take ease of this that he should not delude the public. —( Cheers.) They would certainly ascertain by a vote that night whether the Hon. Member was in earnest or not— (Cheers)—with regard to this question. He had said in an early part of the discussion, that he regretted the Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet was not laid on the table, because in Committee he might move an a lt era ti on i n the scale of duties; and he found he was obliged to make that motion now. But those authorities to whom lie had appealed had told him that ' he could not do it when the Bill was laid on the table, and they might also have told him that the first step to be taken was to reject the motion of the Right Honourable Baronet. But the Hon. Member was going to sit down without moving at all.—( Laughter.) He (Mr. Duneoml.e) had said with others, "Move, move," and he at last did say that he proposed that a duty of 255. be inserted in, tead of 20s. As usual, that question was put, and the question was merely taken aye or no; fortunately the Hon. Gentleman, the late Chancellor of the Ex chequer rose before " no" was said, or they would never have heard any thing from the agricultural gentlemen, and though the Hon. Member for North Lincolnshire was not a pilot balloon, though he %vs not the Right Hon. Baronet's foolometer, though he was not in the situation of Moliere's oid woman —(Laughter) —yet, he must say that this conduct was the most extraordi- nary ever practised. Never was the agricultural interest, if they were so sensible and intelligent as Hon. Gentleman in their orations represented them to be, so deceived. It was impossible that they could be so imposed on; he was sure that the manufacturing interest and the people of this country would not Ir ! imposed on by this moonshine mo tion of the Member for North Lincolnshire. But if he was consistent with himself—if be (Mr. Duncombe) could believe the speech the Hon. Member had made at the last election, if the book he held in his hand containing a report of the last North Lincolnshire election, was correct, it was impossible that any gentleman who had made such a speech to his constituents, could then come there and mak e suc h a humbugging speech and a still more humbugging motion.--( Order ) What did the Hon. Gentleman say in August last? "He was opposed to a friend of the Anti-Corn-taw League." Very good that. "He did not oppose the influence of Lord Worsley, but the worthless Government he supported." That's good too. (Laughter.) " The present contest was not one of party but of principle ; it was the ejection from office of a Government that would not only ruin the agricul tural but every other interest of the country. He therefore asked tl ern to support his Hon. Friend as well as h:m self.—(Cries of ' We'll have him.') It had been said that he was a bigoted Tory and a blinded follower of Sir R. Peel, and that he would support that statesman let his mea a tres be ever so irjurious to the agricultural interest. A gen tleman had done him the honour of following him about, and had troubled himself to communicate to Lord Worsley all he (11Ir. Christopher) had said ; but he had perverted what he had said—namely, that he should give his confidence to Sir R. Peel, whatever the tendency of his measures might be, 1\ or was his attachment to the agricultural interest so loose art I CO 7 h b e i r e ue : a l s a a e w: (l l : l ' deter trim, in th a t mid give it Mr. e ft been satist any obs er e I%l "nber 14Ie inber 11 1 * fl that 110,;., ePre aent tl who eons • for F ins Puted to ut b Publish ed ' (Hear) • before which th utteredby 1 ed * --- « e rfiber f , or " 1 su onthl r he w 1 / 4 0 ?idd a