The Sun. — London, England, 1842-06-04 00:00:00

reluiti° W. a que stion late for the 'provisi° ll6 °nu? alters.: lich 116ri 26 prOlj led 1 , 66r- . AI r. ,eoer"` , A. • b v; cnno , e than on; shon l6 Of- Suite t , for 1 alteration' h repeettn efe iOt l tO bg LltbYlf ibe r, sv.llY Pr h P e l i , ‘re L ; no Ir . et 11.1.0 1 on. j o u leis- Pro;. • • ph° a h e rstio 1 , ,he C° sl/111 e 4 d itict ) ‘, by A roe• ationi.):lo per a ond 414. '.tided ' ill /e • et to r i ll the 10 uniLO . it-Os er p ;:ne.- e ,- • fry .' sofa eO . (4611. [1 H o y,GC° tie' p . rect" t ici 4 distur bs wheth lti nes the las . tbi in; Pt r i t o 0 very,4- a ill aVer , tp tit rV W to' ligoef.t righ±ftbe ir to (1 0 1' t ll4l f 4 P IT . , ifs . hat 01 1 ;Ar i tted , '-grr," iidst'. 6 „,f" - gt# l iet : l . 3 .-7Tl' ii4 l o 0 0 4 irdi",gbotrl 4Fis ol o . o R d ;, afterP' ,•! vTleiso of / 'SUER t a i - Ale a , • e House having resolved it s elf into Committee of ‘‘. •l and Alean s . Mr. GREENE in the Chair. as 1. . 1 • PAH K ER presented a pet i tion from the Sheffield 1ri 7 1. -Corn-L aw Assoc i ation, praying for a further reduction .•.. the Sugar Duties. rii.llr. MARK PHILIPS presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce at Manchester, to the same effect. .:‘;TheCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he rose 1: 4 11 upon t h e H ouse to make that provision for the supply tiltEtlie sear, which was derived from the Sugar Duties. b Members of the House who had the advantage of hVarillA 7 q's financial statements of his Right Hon. Friend at the • , r tome ncement of the Session, it could not be matter of utrbtthe H s toout s l e i . e course lie was about to recommend It was his intention to move that the present Sugar Duties should be continued Z " another year. It wond have been gratifying to himself if a , emdd, eon s i s t ent l y w i t h t h e fi nances o f the count r y , h ave "Ptrd another course. He should have beets happy if he twld have recommended to the Hottae to have admitted sugar, .Produce of fussier, countries and the colonies, at a lower •I ' l t e - (4 duty, and thereby have given an advantage to the con just'? e . r arid th ‘ e foreign trade. The same circumstances which .',4ou,induced him last year to resist the proposition of the Right ; 1 1 . o. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth, would prevent ro Irateiimtl Tony submitting to the House any proposition of a r i nature. His own opinion A, that whenever any el .:ation AV, b e ma d e i n t h e sugar d ut i es i t mus t—i n or d er i , in conformity with the general interests, be made in such _ it anner as to ma k e a great re d uct i on i n t h e am o unt of th e rteral duty payable on the importation of sugar, retaining at tar ns time a discriminating duty in favour of the colones. . Jaredwasipoe to deal with this question, unless the II ouse wss t t to make a great sacrifice of revenue, and without the , si hi, !, lo nment of many ofthe reductions on articles of consumption sna •: s h , wad been recently proposed it would be impossible to ft large a sacrifice of revenue as would be necessary for ' eDinion !echo:Oen of the sugar duties. Many persons might be of that it would be advisable to reduce the duties on sh e 'it titsar, but although he believed that the supply from _eulonies wou ld b e f u ll y a d equate to meet t h e emends of :"alttre, y, t until he should be satisfied that our colonies d send us a large surplus supply, he could riot consent to a • . ! e k r edtiction of the duty on colonial sugar, because he was Rili e f ueusive that a large sacrifice of revenue might be made are tut any benefit whatever to the consumer, as unless there large surplus supply, the benefit of any reduction would vi . eil li t id tu b the pockets of the producer alnne. He thought it e equally objectionable to reduce the duty on foreign t ss ult _ar• On that subject he adhered to the opinion he had ex- Waled last. year that great moral and political questions were mix - %t w ll hthatprooosal which requi r ed the gravest consitteration. i sg l;' °HI .not consen t t o a re d uc ti on o f th e d u ty o n f o r e ig n re g . a'abile they had no concession from other countries eith stsii-r!.% to slavery. He could not consent to give up the in laa'ent for achieving that for which they had so hog liwuared, and which he believed they were nearer effecting • s s a aa w l t hall when he last addressed them. The British market e cia ° one to which it was most desirable for slave-holding otries to obtain admission, and within a recent period it hail • . tteco ss „ )et treore an object with them, in consequence of the t i ...._ -t eased rate of duty put on foreign sugar by the countries of a i 4 7Pei Fran ce , R uss i a , an d th e G erman League. The !„,,L - f"hOltling commun i t i es were th ere f o r e more prepared than .. f ° , o, to make sacrifices to obtain admission to the British 'res. 14 re t• - He thought it would be gratifying to those who itiC!..-mterested in the suppression of the slave trasle, that in siier'rUreign Possessions from which they expected to derive .hite r su PPlles of sugar, there was a disposition manifested of iSsi ni : a and it was particularly apparent in Cuba, against the cot!- ' siillt* of the slave-trade. It was impossible to read the public " sstis e attsm e msiand papers issuing from the press, without coming , la.ebecluaion. In those colonies, where formerly no per t - "" ictiaald •.• i nttrani eapruss an opinion adverse to the slave trade, the eti,, 7 7 - that would result from its extinction was now freely • s'sd one of the arguments they used against slavery, fro hat It would bring large tracts of country into cultivation, • .. • shit.kbWhich sugar Would be produced, so as to compete with °ld 'ule'ar-groivingeountries. He nett ish to detain the House • ei i i u th t a euments. There was one, however, with which he would • e them. In a letter from the Governor of Cuba, dated a' ll , to the Iloine Government, he stated that a spirit hostile che slave trade had risen up there, so practical in its eha . sj; .'", as to induce many planters to seek for tree labourers for I : A ir estates, instead of makiug use of slaves ; and that seve eihi`iisetlasions on the subject had arisen on the part of periodi sh •.kn the capital city of the island. He (the Chancellor of aoi rit c a vv ehequer) fou . nd, by . the latest information, that that • l a s e as progressively going on in the colony. By the itOdespatehes, he found that the Governor had prevented -.lll_iralidalent introduction of slaves into the colony. He stated ~J'e facts as confirmatory of the views which he had taken on • ais.,.‘tilts aubjeet,' on w.former occasion. They ought not to admit 4lve-grow n produce of that country to the benefit of the .4. l ‘t a ,4 l sh market, for, by so .doing, they gave a motive . to inte sii."- Oa f rties to oppose the growing spirit of liberality in Cuba. s „.. ss il or-theso reasons, therefore, that he could not recom • Ad to the House, during the present year, to relax the duties t .: • s ePPa the sugar of for e ign p ossess i ons . H e h a d a l r eady stated reasons why he thought it inexpedient, without a relaxation , those duties,lo Make any reduction in the duty on colonial 7: t 4 ;it: a gat- The on ly a lt ernat i ve w hi c h was open to him, therefore, L ~7 aato re commen d to t h e House to continue the present duty or another year. In making this proposal, he had the satis 41th, Jactlo n to feel that Ile was not taking a step which would be akel•; , t i o urious to - the consumers of sugar in this country. His Right e „ us Friend stated, on -a former occasion, that from every tai so •40count he could then obtain of the prospects of the production s lit t s e s 4l l•saa• in our possessions, he had reason to believe that the ;N I aap o t P 4 roduction would, during the current year, be amply sufficient aoafford a more than large supply for all parts of this country. 't - sc•., (Hear.) To those statements, which his Hon. Friend made, , from subsequent information, might add his confirmation ; and he believed from all the accounts he had received, whether ik t ~frem India on the one hand, where the growth of sugar had :increased, or whether from the Mauritius, where the annual ! 14 ; production had been for some time past increasing, and where Ailey had the means of labour not possessed by those hitherto „ sellout states; or whether they looked to the West Indies, where they had hall .a fortunate season, and where the drought of t., former years had been superseded by the most genial weather 'te i ' ; ', ,- si-he believed, taking those three sources of supply, that they l e - ,Would have 2-10,000 tons of sugar for the supply of the year. The quantity consumed during the last year was 200,000 tons, ,;elabich was the largest consumpoon ever known in this country. They had before them the prospect of an abundant supply. 'hat, with respe c t al so t o th e pr i ce . C ou ld i t b e ma i nta i ned •, lhat, at t h e present moment, the price was too high ? They „'nevr, in the course o f l as t year , t h at t h e pr i ce was t h e same as •, l i i llatt now, •lt was 365. in 1841 ; and it was 365. now. The • s use would form an erroneous view of the actual price, if they ; a rk it 'f rom t h e average of th i s year, as compared with the i-• • e ta-Oe of last year. With respect to the average of the last ' •: tars it was known that there was in the market, at the time, a ' • a::: Proportion of most inferior sugar. The 365., then, of last ith e - Must be considered as much higher than 365. now, when AS i taltar in the market was of a very superior quality. • esp h i t t price, they found that the rate of consumption o as • ProaL i a any antecedent year, with an almost equally certain at at ,7e, t of supply at, the present moment, tu the amount ‘• th e `,1 4 •, There was no reasonable ground to apprehend that Or b i .r. ri ee would be such as to interfere with the consumption, ,Of i r"Yent the enjoyment of that article by the inferior classes } ,t i It must be gratifying to every one to know that .;lt l 'ctlit v ' W ere able loprovide amply for the wants of the commu•• 44 1 4„' 4 , 11 c1 that they could provide for an extension of the eon '' A si a tan, without infringing the principle which tae country " 1 e,.. 14, :ar a ; - , l° r SO many years contended, the suppression of the sa liliteraste and slavery. It was on these grounds that ' l liti s i ttlt ated the House would concur in ahe resolution with <i si ,' 4, 4 l. h he should conclude. He was quite aware that on that otea.,7 4 i'M he was to bemet by two distinct opposing parties. t -11 e fr° Bath, d the is s r al the Hon. Gentleman the Member for an tte ' '`k!le se er tl al the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Labou- As s isi' It Was not Isis intention to go into the arguments eas t l!' to be used by those Hon.- Gentleman. He had stated Aiss ti re tami which appeared to him to render it desirable to con uQ ta , . 4 114 t he duties as they were at present. He did not feel that ' 1 e,.:911.11 1 : e re in a situation to cause any further risk to the revenue • Ite aii 7 emir se of the present year. He did not think that they " th e 3 : 3ol fied in throwing away the chance of concession on .. - fq;ii s eie e „ sur tiect o f s l avery b y f ore i gn c ount r ies. Under all thesa r'a•eti,";sitlatances. he could nut think but that the House would tsas s ,Cet that the sugar duties should be continued for the pre -" Ile should, therefore, move that the sugar dutii s • ' t alled•—(Cheers.) Ie: : WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE. eil i r House re s umed for the purpose of . a td GRANVILLE NOMERSET moving, that Lord •dl tti t tmt who was now in the custody of the Sergeant - at -1404' would be discharged on payment of his fees. Th. • following Members were sworn in to try the petition sssAttlst th e l ate return o f M em b ers f or th e City of Waterford : 1 4r: r ' Jervis, Captain Boldero, Mr. Dundas, Capt. A'Court , C144; 5 4 1 1 1. 1 . Vivian, Viscount Somerton, and Mr. Hogg VAYS AND MEANS—SUGAR DUTIES. aa,o" House again resolved itself into a Committee of Ways Melon Th • • e Motion of th e CHANCELLOR of the E KCHEQUER m at r i ve to the Sugar Duties having been put, 4; 4 '^ls 'Um,: ROEUC &Aid that by the move he had to bring ta ea ' the consideration , of the Committee, n he only proposed 4, at ,Aei b r i r Y out the principle that the people of this country should Nek s `f 'h at e tu get every important commodity in the cheapest market. 'he at *as the general principle of policy which he believed it ntn ti i,, r n°st universally admitted that we should pursue. .He 1 4 1 1 21 t, ite t - "2 discussing ibat principle, as it related to the subject '4 s t i: t ` 4 ately under their notice, feel it his duty to grapple with • 4 04 is V of the argumen t s a dduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman I tisi" 4 ate t ,7 ks°ll s for deviating from that ordinary rule of policy. in hltif' ° g the s übj ect he had various interests to consider. He s s hies t o i COnsider the consumer in this country ; he had 1 44 1 ' 1 14 - 6 1' , 4 consider our colonial interests; and then he had to a:eort of exotic argument, pressed into the matter for 1:Ica Iffa s t' l 7'atlurpose of . the re it, n_amely, the question of Y• In considering these three classes he would refer to '. . 4 i.i4 111 : - ;; ' Se g ettil ar tll the order he had stated. No pet son would doubt that th at one of the most important articles, and one of the ee statr 'r necessaries of life in the present state of . soc , iets iii this • ,'ltta ea ) , Y ; anti if he wanted a proof of this, he might. r t e s ate that i,,ltYClee k t . e l . l °,ur millions of hundreds weight were consumed in the ~ie:ltvea s. '""i by the people. The cost of that, exclusive of duty, astai',7 4o ething like between seven and eight millions, and in - ”l s 'lAth e Z ( M . to - that there was levied on it four millions. So that if;; , „;; ; ;;pe tded meY ooneidered the enormous wealth and capital ex. is a 4 s . tets„un this article , he could not take it at less than • '4, 4 ,taft' Stitt u s i rnas There needed, therefore, nothing more than to suet sugar was not only an article of the utmost is s 4 hOi, eut e 7 t i artee but one of primary necessity. He would not now et" Oe vie into that wade question, but, looking at it. in a moral point 4 a lts • :the peo l'" , It was an article that tended to in.prove the morals of is . 4l ze. upp,„ j'lei as it induced habits of sobriety, and was altogether t` `po rts to the consumption of spirits. lt was also of great in the ne e in another point of view. He was anxious to raise th e m oral desi res of the people,and do all that he could to make tn h a • Poin t af PPY• Looking at the subject in a moral and fiscal - Itro u s view, it was one of the most important that could be 1, 0 ,g0t before the House. Such bents; the case, let them Pr4 e t the losses sustained by the people in consequence of the ko,ed rate of d u ti es . It appeared from a taper the ave r by the Ch ance ll or o f th e Exchequer, that in 1841 ' the i ge Price of c o l on i a l sugar was 495. per cwt., while a ls. averageprice of foreign sugar from Brazil and Cuba was Peopf e tats Now, he would not take the loss to the British ' 11 :• / it t 28 '* a cwt., he would only reckon it at 20s. a cwt. ga l le e n was clear, taking it at only 20s. a cwt., that the eo triot: En gland had, in the year 5841, paid four millions of • •Y more than they need have paid, for the purpose of ob i t hb i l ly„.. e tame quantity of sugar.—( Hear, hear.) It was a 11 1 e ,, 0f figures. This sugar had cost 493. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No, no. 455. 41 11 'ao r • ROF.BUCK The Hon. Gentleman said 435. Be it '44 " it made ss ° l ' he di I no difference to his (Mr. Roebuck's) argument, ..tnot take the loss at 2)5., which it would be at the ig•ht end; ,f, n• Gentle )04,t i p a i d '„eing it at oo s ., man's showing—he only took it at 205., he repeated that the peoi le of England f, %e l 4 1as "mr millions ( s, oeit i t f 0 . money more than they could have ob i • or elsewhere• "v. I 'll , • He should wish to tear some expla % Ro g s iand 5.--.ne should like to know what benefit the people derived front that expenditure ? Hon. Gentlemen • - Th er vo u j l , l t i g ht saY, that if they were to lower the duty, ff raise the price of Ilrazilian and Cuba sugar. aro ban l t i Y • e u rt. of that would be to lessen that benefit by that Raid did ; I _ , n take it at one half. Say the people of England Ria t ° H e o h li alf more than they ought to pay, he would ask he Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would as k wo u l d whole Government, he would ask the Houses Punr Ise° , a il in authority, why they should impose on the Or ea Pie of this counts - -for it was the poor who were the se.whitirt (..onsumers of suga ) r—a tax of two millions per annum? a dvantage was derived from it ?—( Hear, hear.) Oh said the night Hon- Gentleman, there is the inter-colonial principle to support, which being interpreted into or inary phraseology, meant that the people of this country were to pay the West India proprietors two millions per annum. Was the House of Commons prepared to tax the people of E nF l a sre two millions per annum for the benefit of the West India proprietors? Oh ! it was not for the benefit of the prop' ietors, hut of the slaves s of the inhebit ants of the West Indies. He denird this altogether 1 it did not at all benefit the slaves ; it went entielety into the pockets of the proprietors. And now he time to that shadow of an argument. which was pressed into the service of gentlemen opposite for the purpose of bolstering up a sinister interest. He always observed that when some sinister interest was to be supported, a plausible kind of argument was generally resorted to. Thus when it watt %vented to keep up the price of bad timber, they were told of their navy and their mercantile marine, and to keep up the tax on sugar, they were told of encouraging the slave trade. Now, he would say broarily from the statement of those most conversant with the, subject, and who had taken a great part in the opposition to the slave trade, that all their quixotic attempts on this subject had been attended with mischief and not with good. He would state on the authority of Sir Fowell Buxton, that the importa ion of slaves into South America, had not increaeed, but that there was a larger exportation from Africa ; that they had not. prevented the mischief of the importation, hut they had increased the misery of the middle pas=age. When the French people thought they had got a great idea in their revo'ution, they tried their propaganda; there was then a great outcry raised against it. ; it was said they had no right to force their notions on other coun tries, arid to become the Quixe-es of the earth. And as a matter of argument what was the dif ference between political relations and social ones ? Certain persons formed the op.ninn that the slave trade was mischievous. He agreed with them in that opinion. Ile agreed with them that it was immoral, and ought to be put down. But there was another epinion he shared in common with the propaganda of France—that it was no part of the bu siness of one nation to propagate any opinions, as a nation, on another. The reason he said this was, that if it was once admitted as a principle, there was no line to he drawn where they were to stop. if to-day they put a stop to the slave trade, to-mor row they might put a stop to slavery itself. The sea was nut theirs, and to assert supremacy thereon was as wild as if they said to the Americans that they should put down slavery there. He knew that by stating those opinions he was subjecting himself to much imputation. hut he was too accustomed to that. to mind it now. After a speech delivered by an Hon. Gentlemen with regard to the mode of proceeding by the Government on the subject of the Corn-law, he did not think he was unchari table in believing that this cry was laid hold of as a con venient one for the purpose of exciting the people of this country against the late Government, and taking advantage of a very noble and benevolent feeling which pervaded their bosoms for the purpose of furthering a particular party.—( Hear.) lie believed that if those duties were maintained it would not be because the Government did not believe them mischievous— not because they were not mischievous—in everything cruel and grinding to the poor—but because they were bound as a party, for the purposes of party, and for saving, apparently, their own consistency, to maintain them.—( Hear, hear.) He now came back to his original position, and he asked the Committee and the Right Honourable Baronet to point out to him how it w is that the benefit in prospective which be expected, namely, to induce the Governments of South America to join with him in putting down the slave trade. was any justification to them or to the poor of this country for taxing them to the amount of 2.000,0001. per ahnum The Right Hon. Gentleman said that it could not be the inte rest of this country to admit f reign sugar, till they hail ob tained some guarantee for the suppression of the slave trade, by the countries from which we were to derive that sugar. He ( Mr. Roebuck) believed that if we were to consent to trade with those people, we would have a more cogent influence on them than we could otherwise have. It was remarkable that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not dwelt en any question but the advantage to be derived from withholding commercial in tercourse with those people. Those who argued in tavour of monopoly, on the ground that it prevented the horrors of the slave trade, only showed that misplaced benevolence was as mischievous as malevolence in its effects. He would conclude by moving that all duty on foreign sugar be reduced to 245 , per cwt., the duty on colonial sugar. The CH A IRMAN having put the question, Mr. GODSON said that he would not go into the question relative to the slave trade, or to the policy laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but would confiee himself en tirely to the two propositions put forward by his Hon. and Learned Friend, relative to their going to the cheapest market, and what would be the effect of the present measure en free labour in the West Indies. He did not think that the propo sition would be the means of reducing the prices, as the sugar growing countries would impose a duty upon the export of sugar immediately the present competition was abolished. With respect to the West India slave peasantry, our abolishing the competition must necessarily reduce their wages. Mr. GLADSTONE said he thought the general feeling of the Committee was to go into the question upon the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. This was not out of disrespect. to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but his motion was one of a peculiar nature, going a great length, which perhaps, few Members of the Committee would follow. Hon. Gentleman said the onus was laid upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to show why the retention of the sugar duty ought to be supported against the rules of trade. What were the rules of trade ? When there was a producing interest at home, it was affected by the duty on a competing country. In France, Germany, and America, the ditty had been considerably increased. Ile did not think the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in any country would find those imaginary rules to exist to which he had re ferred. A strong protective interest had certainly sprung up, and it would be most inconsistent in that House suddenly to withdraw that protection, as proposed by the Hon. Gentleman. He did not think the Hon. Gentleman could find a dozen Mein bers of that Committee who would lee prepared to go to such an extent. He was sure the desire of some protection in the case of sugar was as great as the desire for protection in any other article. He could not think that the House was prepared tte Hon. ohmak Gentlemaneanye xceptio p n ro to po tl d, other general rules, so sudden as in favour of sugar. Mr. COBDEN said that one of the main objections to the proposal of his Hon. Friend (the Hon. Member for Bath) was, that they should not, by abolishing the duty upon sugar, afford an encouragement to slavery. But the opponents of the propo sal did not carry out their own principle, for, under the system which now existed, and which they were advocating, we trafficked with the Brazils and other countries,whose produce we exchanged for our commodities. During the six years which had elapsed from 1835 to 1840 inclusive, this country had paid 20,000,000 e more tor sugar than it would have paid if we had been enabled to buy sugar in foreign markets. Now that was as nearls as possible the amount of the • goods sold during the period in question to the inhabitants of the West Indies; and they might therefore conclude that they would have lost nothing by opening the trade in sugar, and at. the same time making our colonies a present of all the goods they had purchased from us. He thought. the change proposed by his Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Bath was founded upon every principle of justice. It could not be said that the colonies had any peculiar claim upon the mother country, for they derived many benefits from their connection with us. There was another vote for the Bishops, all of which was to be paid out of the taxes on the people; there was another tax for the light-houses, and also for troops. It might be all very well for those out of trade not to think of this, but tradesmen wished to know how all this was incurred. There was no plea whatever for a differential duty. The manufacturers were ready to give up all protection, and he would undertake to bring the whole manufacturing iii terest of the country to agree to such a proposition, and they would thank them for it. He would, in conclusion, only say, that he hoped they would not persevere toe long. After a short conversation the Committee ditided upon Mr. Roebuck's proposition to reduce the duty to 245., when there appeared — For Mr. Roebuk's motion Against it... Majority against. the motion Mr. L ABOUCHERE said he was not able to concur in the motion of the Hen. and Learned Member for Bath. He could not justify it t.o himself, after a system of protection had been acted upon in this country for a great length of time, to remove that protection suddenly and at once. But the Hon. Gentleman had truly stated that that was the principle on which they always acted. He could not believe that any class in the country had an interest in doing injustice to another class. If he held that to be true with regard to the mother country, not the less would he apply it to the colonies. His principle had always been to do away with those monopolies and restrictiens which did no good to any class. The proposal was to keep up the present duties on sugar, and he should move, as an amendment, that the duty on foreign sugar should be reduced to 30s. per cwt., and on colonial sugar to 20s. per cwt. They had had an avowal from the First Minister of the Crown, that it was highly important the price of articles of consumption should be reduced. This prin • ciple had not been fully carried out in their measures. He would not say that nothing had been done to this end in the tariff; but what haul been effected had been lamentably small. The good it would de would rather be by the indirect increase it would give to employment, than from any actual reduction in the price of articles of consumption. With the exception of coin, there was no article on which, by substituting a reasonable duty, they could so materially add to the com'ert of the people. The price of corn would probably be much the same under the change of the law, but there was the greatest difference between the price of sugar here and on the Cunt nent. Unless some clear and solid reason could be shown to the contrary, it was the duty of the House to make such alterations in the sugar duties, as would secure to the people an adequate supply of an article so necessary to their comfort at a moderate rate. Before proceeding further, he would shortly advert to the history of the sugar trade for the last ten years. Up t.o that period, although our own colonies had theoretically the monopoly of the supply of sugar to this country, yet practically, the British consumer had not felt the evils of that monopoly, because the supply from the British colonies being much greater than could be absorbed by the home market, the surplus was exported to foreign countries, and the price in the British market was consequently governed by the price in the, foreign market. Within the last ten years, however, the supply from onr own colonies had greatly fallen off, and the sugar cultivation of foreign countries had extended. Our markets were scantily supplied. We paid a much higher price than foreign nations, and practically ex. e atieneed all the evils of the monopoly. Its 1829, the question of the sugar duties had been brought before the House by Lord Glenelg, then Mr. Grant. and Mr. Huskisson. Mr. Grant's proposition was that the duty on foreign sugar should be 285., on East India sugar 255., and on West India sugar 20s. a cwt., so that the only difference which Mr. Grant and Mr. Huskisson proposed to make between foreign and British colo nial sugar was the difference between '2Bs. and 20s. the cwt. Mr. Grant accompanied that proposal by a 'most re markable declaration, namely, that Mr. Huskisson and himself, as members of the Cabinet of the Duke of Wel lington, had submitted that proposal to their colleagues in that Cabinet, and no objection whatever haul been made to the principle which had been fully admitted, that the only . objection had been one of revenue, and that, on the ground of that objection, the pr oposition had been postponed for a year, and Mr Grant had expressed his great disappoint ment-that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who at pre sent held the same office, had not proposed some alteration in the sugar duties. The Right Hon. Gentleman had opposed the motion solely on the ground et revenue—he had admitted the principle contended for by Mr. Grant. Ile ( Mr. Labou chere) would admit, that since that period colonial slavery had been abolished, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer mainly rested his opposition now on the ground that. a reduc tion of the duty would encourage the slave trade. The Right lion. Gentle an drew a distinction between slavery and the slave trade, and surely that objection could have been urged as forcibly against. Mr. Grant's proposeion as against the ?resent one. In 1831 the great measure of negro emancipation was carried, arid it was generally felt that there ought to be an un willingness, immed.ately atter such a change had been made in the social cons ition of our West India colonies, to do anything that should disturb the working of the new.system. On that ground alone had the sugar duties remained undisturbed. not from any idea that the alteration of those duties wou'd en courage the slave trade, but from the necessity whieh existed for allowing breathing time to the colonies, atter such a great change had been imposed on them by the mother country. This, he apprehended, was the sole and sufficient reason why Pailiament should interfere with the sugar duties. It was upon this ground, two years ago, that be (Mr. L.) resisted a motion made by his Hon, Friend the Member for Wigan, stating, however, at the same time, that he rested his opposition, riot upon a question of principle, but solely on a question of time. lie would remind the House that his Noble Friend, Lord Sydenham, some years ago, distinctly stated to the country . that in his opinion it would be absolutely necessary to consider the sugar duties with a view to their alteratio He (Mr. La bouchere) recollected that when he was in Liverpool, three -mass ego. a eery respectable deputation waited upon him, with torn Sydenham's speech in th'it hands, and with an expression of great alarut, they said that they hoped that he was not ping to adopt the plan of his predeeessor. He was not able to give them any satisfactory assurance of this, and the gentlemen let him anything bat satisfied. He recollected that when the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth brought. forward his proposition with respect to the sugar duties, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that they were taking the interests concerned by surprise, and he could not, therefore, help making this statement to the House of Commons. He then thought it necessary to give the West Indian interest hreatlimg time, after the great experiment of negro emancipation; but the time was now come when, in justice to the people of this country—in justice even to those protected interests them selves—it was right anti fitting that the Parliament should consider the subject with a view to its alteration. It was in accordance with this opinion that the Government., of which he had had the honour of being a Member, brought fora ar.l their proposition last year, but which, unfortunately, did net meet with the support of the Legislature, He thought the reasons which existed last year for this step, existed with the same force now. It must be recollected that this was a ques tion distinguished from the other interests in the country. They had had lately alterations made in the commercial system for the general benefit of the community ; but still they could not hide from themselves the fact, that. certain protected interests had been deprived of the protection they had hitherto enjoyed. He held that every interest they had so effected, had a right to complain, unless they dealt in the same manner with the sugar producing interest. It was on this ground tha die complained of the course pursued on the sub ject of the Corn-laws which applied to the prohibiting duty on sugar. But they were told that the present state of the sugar trade, and the present prices of sugar were satisfac tory, arid that they might rest perfectly content to leave things as they were die preceding year ; that no great practical evil could possibly accure by delaying tha alteration of the sugar duties, at least for the present year. He must say, that when he looked to the figure's, he did not find that. those figures bore out the statement of Gentlemen opposite on this subject. Ile began with prices. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, told them that sugar was at a low price. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought the Aight. Hon. Gentleman must have spoken rather in his capacity as West India pro prietor, than as Chancellor of the Exchequer when he said this; but it. certainly was not at all satisfactory to the people of Eng land. He (Mr. Labouchere) supposed from the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that there had been a great and sudden fall in prices. lie ( Mr. L. ) found that from the Gazette of the 25th of alay, the last week, in the last month, that the price of West India Muscavado sugar in bond, was 395. 51d.; at the same period of last year, it was 385.,2id., being rather more than Is. per cwt. difference in the corresponding period. Ile would take a wider range. He found that in January, the ave rage price was 48s. 101 , 4 d., February 375., March 395. 2id., in April 38s. 114 d., and in Max, the first week, 41s. lid. ; so that it would appear that the whole of this year's pricea had ranged high, and that they were not sat istacte r at the present moment. There was also anott:er point. Heyiield this to be the result of the plan on which the sugar market was supplied. There was now continued violent alteration in price, but extend the rnarlset and the effect would be steadiness of price. Rut what he considered as the more important part of this question wag, the actual price of sugar in this country a' compared with the sugar in other countries. By that would be shown what were the burdens on the people of this country by means of the sugar laws, and the great disadvantages they were under compared to their foreign rivals. He believed that Porto Rico sugar might reasonably come into fair competition with British Indian Muscovado sugar. Now the prise of Porto Rico sugar he believed at this moment to be about 19s. or 205., being as nearly as possible one half the price of West India sugar of the same quality. Of course the difference between 19s. and 395. w s taken by the prohibitory system on the supply and consumption of sugar. The next point to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer adverted was the probable supply of sugar for the present year. He told them he was quite certain of an ample supply of sugar, and that there was no fear but that the people would•be abun dantly supplied. He (Mr. Labouchere) had not the same means of information as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had s but he had, however, attempted, by such means as he bad access to, to come to some coarclusion on the question, and from these he was not disposed to form any sanguine expectations of the supply of sugar. He hell in his hand what he believed to be a correct statement of the importations of late years, and he found that from the West Indies there came in the f-cur first months of 1841, viz. from the sth of January to sth May, 314,000 cwt. of sugar ' • and in 1842, '240,000 cwt. only came. He found that, of Mauritius sugar, in 1841, was imported 303,006 cwt. ; and, in 1842, 244,000 cwt. Of British Indian sugar there was a still more remarkable falling off, for, in the first four months of 1841, the importation was 483,000 cwt. ; and, in 1842, 296,000 cwt. during the same period. If they com pared the quantity of sugar in bond which paid duty, and was introduced for consumption in the first four months of 1841, with the same period of 1842, they would find a small increase in the present year. In 1841, the amount was 1,100 to 2,000 cwt. ; and, in 1842, the amount was 1,146 cwt., so that it was quite clear that there had been a large drawing on the stock, and it was obvious that that stock must have been dimi nished, by 320,000 cwt., since the last year ; and that what ever would be consumed this year, of course, would make the stock so much less than it was last year. He also found that this was confirmed by a document which was entitled to consi deration. It was the circular of Messrs. Truman and Cooke, who were generally supposed to furnish accurate information. This circular was written for the purpose of being sent by the overland despatch to their correspondent in India, and dated the Ist of January. ( The Right Hon. Gentleman then read a short extract from the Circular, from which it appeared that the stock since the same time last year had decreased to the amount of 12,000 tons.) Therefore it appeared that the stock at that moment was 12,000 less than the corresponding period of the year before. He (Mr. Labouchere) could not help remarking the altered st ate of the arguments used by Hon. Gentlemen °pro site arid those used last year.— ( Hear, hear.) They had seemed to have pressed all the arguments they could into their service. For instance, one argument last year was that they (the Opposition) wereeareful of the interests of the inhabitants on the banks of the Amazon, but they forgot the interests of the hundreds of millions of their fellow-countrymen, who lived on the banks watered by the Ganges. Th - at was the argioneet used last year, but it would not do now. They had heard that. which would be entirely inconsistent with this argument from gentlemen opposite in the course of the discussion on com mercial subjects, because these monopolies were not even good for those who were said to be benefited by them. He was told that interests had risen up under those pro tecting duties, but those interests would soon find that their foundation was not substantial. There was an other reason why he thought these sugar duties should not continue. He referred to the Bill introduced by the Right Hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, which would make a very material alteration in the West Indies with regard to the cultivation of sugar—he meant the Colonial Passengers Bill. It bore a close resemblance to a measure he (Mr. La bouchere) had had the honour to introduce, and he felt that when this Bill passed it would be highly injurious to maintan the restrictive system in the West Indies, and, at the same time, subject them to foreign competition with regard to the staple article of the country • therefore, both on that account and on general principles, and the consideration of justice to the West Indies, he had felt it to be his duty to introduce that measure. which he rejoiced to see had been adopted and brought forward by gentlemen opposite. But, in doing this, they were giving an important boon to the West Indies. He found this subject treated with especial attention by a Committee which sat upon the West Indian colonies in 1831. He found a passage in the Report of that Committee relating to those re strictions. (The Right Hon. Gentleman then lead an extract from the Report of this Committee, from which it appeared that the annual charge upon the colonies was 1,392,0001. ) This was a charge upon the articles of life, and, conse quently, every article was a great price. Thfs was not natural, for Jamaica,was not far distant from the Mississippi, and the Chesapeake. He trusted soon to see Jamaica, instead of being the deareut place in the world, one of the cheapest to live in. He then came to what he believed the main objec tion gentlemen opposite advanced to the proposition he had brought forward. Ile meant the encouragement it would give to slavery. Now he hoped he was not insensible to that argu ment. If he really believed that it was substantial, however much importance he attached to the question of these duties being discontinued, he would opvose it. But he could not be lieve that the country was called upon to submit to this impost for the purpose of using the influence—the influence which England must always possess with the countries of the world, for the ultimate abolition of that detestable and odious traffic— the slave trade. He could not believe that they were called upon to makes that sacrifice with this ohject.—( Hear, hear.) He supposed when gentlemen talked of making treaties with a foreign country to relax the sugar duty, the Brazils was the place they meant. Now, what was their position with respect to the Brazils ? We had now a very advantageous treaty with Brazils; it was a treaty imposed on them when they were struggling for independence, and was almost too advantageous to this country. Our commercial treaty with them was this: they bound themselves not to impose a duty on any article of British produce, of more than 15 per cent. ad valorem, anti there was no corresponding stipulation for the admission of Brazilian arti cles into this country ; we only engaged to place their produce on the most favourable footing we could. This treaty raised great irritation in the Brazils ; it interfered with all their corn tnercial concerns, and stood very much in their way. This treaty expires, according to us, in 1843 ; according to them, in 1842. It was undoubtedly of the greatest consequence that, before it expired, some commercial arrangement of a fair na ture should be entered into with that country. He appre hended the danger we had to fear was, that they would refuse to have any commercial treaty with us, but would instead place on a discriminating duty, which would be favourable to other countries, but unfavourable to us. That they had threatened to do, and he was afraid they would. He believed it would be very untie,irable to put off negotiating with them till the last moment ; and Honourable Gentlemen opposite said that this was a reason for delaying the alteration in the sugar duties. He would meet that objection, by saying that they would be in a more favourable condition for negotiating wish the Brazils on c mmercial matters, alter we had made this alteration in the sugar duties. Government would then be free to act as they pleased, nothing could prevent them coming to the House of Commons, and proposing to make a dis•inction of duty with regard to count ies where slavery prevailed, and where it did not. He did not say that that was a proper policy, still it would be open to the Government to adopt it if they pleased ; and he would say that if they wanted to make use of the sugar duties as a means whereby to advance our commercial prosperity, they would be in as ativantageous a situ tion to do so after an alteration, as they were now. If he were right in the view which he took on that point, of course the arguments used on the other side relative to slave-grown sugar would tall to the ground. With regard to the West Lilies, they were told that they must delay this measure ; in answer to that, be would beg to place the opinion of one who was often before Committees of that House on questions of West Indian policy, and who was at the same time the most ardent, the most able, and the most indefatigable opponent of negro slavery—he meant Mr Joseph Bevan, who said that an alteration in the duties would tend, so far from checking the progress of the Colonies, to render them quite successful Although the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer rested his. opposition to an alteration of the duties mainly on thepoint of the encout agement which he said would bet iven to slavery, he also looked at it as a point of revenue. He (Mr. Labouchere) was not prepared to deny that some loss of revenue for a year or two must be expected, still he believed that there were no articles on which they could make an experiment of reduc tion, with a greater certainty that the revenue would speedily recover from that reduction, as they could on sugar. There was none of more extensive consumption, none of which the consumption had been more obviously checked by high prices than sugar. and there was none, therefore, with which an expe riment might be made with greater safety. He thought the Hight Hon. Gentleman was quite right in not laying great stress on the loss of revenue. The motion he made now dif fered from the motion of the Government, last year in this. The duty which he proposed now on foreign sugar was 305., and on colonial 20s. ; last year it was 365. on foreign and '24s. on colo nisi. He need hardly explain the reason for that. I.ast year their object, was to secure an increase of revenue ; their budget was based on this, that they must receive a certain revenue from sugar. and they did not think themselves justified, under such circumstances, in trying a bolder experiment than they did. But now they should consider the sugar duties under altered circumstances ; they had got an Income-tax, and if they were to have the evils Of an Income-tax, at least let them have the benefits of it; and here he must say that lie believed that tax would be much more productive to the revenue than the Right Han._ (ientleman bad calculated upon ; he thought, IRE SUN, LONDON. SATURDAX EVENING, JUNE 4, 1842. then, they could' rib( be in '?more favourable circumstances for trying the experiment on sugar than they were now. He would only add that there was another reason why he considered they would come to consideration of. the sugar duties this year, " under favourible - cirournstinces. His Hon. Friend, who w.s not now in his place, the Member for Nottingham, stated to - them what were. the grounds on which he voted against the • sugar duties last year.--:" Don't suppose us," he said, " suds narrow-minded people as to allow any alteration in the sugar suties or the timber „duties; that was all very well last year,' hut now we are able to express those opinions which we always entertained. 'flintier last year meant popery, and' 1 sugar meant revolution, and we- were opposing, not the sugar', duty or the ; timber. duty, but a Government of Radicals and Papists."—(Great laughter.) He (Mr. L.) was sorry the ; Hon. Gentleman was not in his place now; he hoped he would come down in the evening, as he thought he had a right to his vote. He world only conclude by reminding the House , that they were called on to determine this question at a s eriod ' when it was one of vital interest and importance. Her Ma jesty's Government had advised her Majesty to issue her let- ter, in which she had called on her opulent subjects to administer to the necessities of their poorer fellow-country men. No doubt the call would be responded to with that red- ; diness with which the wealth and property of this country ; always answered such appeals ; but he would venture to say that the House bad an opportunity to-night of conferring a boon, of more advantage than could be done by the letter, if they would accede to this motion.—( Rear, hear.) They would at once open new , channels o f t ra d e , and at once reduce the price of one of the greatest necessaries of life. He trusted this appeal would not be made in vain. it was with ~the utmost disappointment he hearth the an nounceinent of the Right Honoarable Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury that he meant to exclude the sugar duties from all amendment. He could riot help suspecting that that course had been adopted, rather through a determination to adhere to the course they pursued last year than any sound policy. Sure he was, at least, that the course the Govern ment now adopted was strangely inconsistent with the principles ohich . kad been announced by them in the course of the dis cussions which they had already had, and especially inconsistent with the desire which the Right Hon. Baronet expressed him self to have for reducing the price of the articles of subsistence of the people of this country; and he would ask them, if they would be doing their duty to their constituents in opposing this motion, when, by pursuing an opposite course, they would he acting in accoreance with those principles of trade which seemed to be universally acknowledged to be sound, and which would confer au incalculable boon upon the commerce of this ) put, c o u o n i t l r they.-- q ( u L ,. o s t u i d o T c 1 b i e e e i r n s g . Mr. GLADSTONE rose. He said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had congratulated himself en what he considered to be the altered tone of gentlemen on his (Mr. Gladstone's) side of the House, and appeared to think that there was a dis position to abandon the arguments or portions of the arguments which were urged hist year in resisting the propositions of the then GoVernment. He could see nothing to be abandoned in the arguments then used.—( Hear, hear.) The discussions of last year extended over no less .than ten nights in a single debate, and in the present state of the public business he saw the necessity for brevity. There was no contest last year on the sugar duties with respect to commercial principles, but it was contended that there were peculiar considerations, from the connection with slavery add the slave trade, which exempted it for a time from being dealt with as it ought to be ; on these, grounds the Right Hon. Baronet opposed the late Govern merit, on the same grounds as he did it now. The whole question still remained as it was then. The Right Hon. Gen tleman lamented hoW little had been done by the tariff for cheapening articles of subsistence ; that was no doubt true. The gi eat bulk of the revenue which they had to give away was not on articles of subsistence, but on articles of indus:.ro ; and in doing so he thought they were more certainly conducing to the comfort and well-being of the people, even than by cheapening the articles of food. The Right Hon.' Gentleman alluded then to a point on which he (MniGlad stone) should touch very briefly—the proposition of Mr. Grant ' in 1829. In 1629 Mr. Grant proposed to reduce the duty on . foreign sugar to 285., and on West Indian to 205., leaving only a protection to the West India over the foreign of es. The Chancellor of the Exchequer then opposed that proposi tion, hut he did not do so on the ground of protection. The Right Hon. Gentleman now raised the argument= ad Immi nent, and said that kis (Mr. Gladstone's) Hon. Friend was wholly inconsistent. But the Bs. duty proposed under those circumstances, would have been a prohibitory duty.—( Hear, In point of fset, what the Right hen. Gentleman advanced as a ground of his (Mr. Gladstone's) Right Hon. Friend's in consistency, showed, on the contrary, no inconsistency what ever in the matter. If Mr. Grant's plan had been adopted, there would have been no loss on the score of revenue. The Right Hon. Gentleman appeared tothink that no great stress would be laid, in resisting his motion, on the ground of revenue. -(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, he (Mr. Glad stone) believed there • were conclusive objections to his motion on the ground of revenue, and that too without reference to other considerations. Looking, at the financial estimates of the year, he (Mr. G.) submitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan was inadmissible on finan cial grounds alone. He had endeavoured to consider what would be the effect of the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan on ..he finances of the country, and he would venture to state to the . House that it was by no means an extravagant estimate to state that the adoption of that plan would cause a deficiency in the revenue of 600.0001., that it was a most liberal estimate to lay the deficiency , at 400,0001. The net revenue from sugar was 5,400,0001. If there should be no increase in the consumption of that article (and from the present state of trade and em ployment none was likely ), the Right Hon. Gentleman's pro position would only admit of a revenue of 4,548,0001. to be derived from sugar, thus leaving a deficit of 852,0001. And what—even admitting that an increase in consumption took place —what would be the amount to put as sett-off against that sum. Why, 218,0001., which would leave a deficit of 632,0001. He would now proceed to another subject. to which he thought it necessary to advert. The Right lion. Gentleman was wrong in supposing that the only ground of opposition to his motion would be a financial one. The price of sugar in the year 1841 was 395. 7d. per cwt. ; in 1842 it was 38s. 2d. per cwt., showing a fall in the year 1842 as compared with 1841. They had also every reason to believe that there would be a much larger supply of sugar this year fro'm British possessions than there had been last year, and consequently they were justified in entertaining no apprehension as to a rise in the price of sugar, but, on the contrary, in looking forward to a fall. There was one material alteration in the Hight Hon. Gentleman's plan as compares! with the pl •si of the late Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman left a protective duty of 10s. sat British colonial sugar, while the plan of last year gave a protective duty of Us. on sugar of an inferior description, and 18s. on •superior. sugar. The Itio,ht Hon. Gentleman had thrown away an additional 6s. without saying one word. That was hardly consistent with the general principle upon which his plan was founded. That difference of 10s.- duty, given as protection te British sugar, would ba more than counterbalanced by the superior quality of the sugar sent from Cuba, upon which cheaper labour could be bestowed, to an extent not in the power of the British producer. In fact, that protection was altogether a nominal one. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman had also presumed that great stress would be laid on the tendency of the adoption of his motion to stimulate the production of sugar by slave labour, and consequently to stimulate the slave trade; and the RigiO floss Gentleman said, with a frankness end sincerity that would not be doubted, that if he believed the adoption of his motion would have such an effect, he would abandon his propo sition. Now the price of sups is the British market was 383. or 395., and the price of sugar in bond was from 19s. to 20s. If then the British market was thrown open, would it not have a tendency to the production of a larger quantity of sugar, arid consequently give a stimulus to the slave trade ?—( Hear. ) With regard to the negotiations with foreign countries, the Right Hon. Gentleman said, it was better to make the change n the sugar duties first, and then proceed with the rsegotia. thins.• But they were wring on with negotiations with States who had the utnuot reluctance on the subject, and were they ; to throw away the consideration for which these treaties were to be obtained? But the Right Hon. Gentleman would throw away that by which they could work on the interests of those States, and then ask them for what they were unwilling to give. It was a material question for the consideration of the House to know the effect of this measure on the slave trade. The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had said that interference was useless, and that they might as well interfere with the practice of domestic slavery. Was there nothing, then, obtained by - the great sacrifices of this country? He re joiced that there was. The low price of sugar in the markets j of Europe, had a salutary and powerful influence on the pur suit of the slave trade; which low price was produced not only by the exclusion of that sugar from the-British market, but by I other measures adopted on the Continent of Europe ; and par ticularly by the doubling of the duty on sugars by the German Customs Union. He would pass over the growing feeling in those countries themselves against the slave trade. be cause lie would be only repeating what had been said by his bight Honourable Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The valuable informatiou given by Mr. Baudinet was clear upon that point. The rate of insurance on slave adventures also indicated the success of the measures which had been taken for the suppression of the slave trade. From the year 1817 until the conclusion of the treaty in 1835, the importation of slaves into Cuba, was 40,000 a-year. When the treaty with Spain, establishing the right of search and ether severe mea sures were passed, the imporation decreased. In 1838, the importation was 38,000; in 1839, it was 25,000; in 1840, it was reduced to 14 417. With regard to Brazil, the facts were still stronger. Id 1838 the insportation into Rio alone, was 47,000 ; and into all the ports it was 94,000. In 1839, the importation into Rio was 28,000 ; into the entire country it was 56,000. In 1640, the importation into Rio was 7,000 ; the total amount was I 4,000 ; making a difference of one •sixth in the course now asked facts k;e .if it th was rout niitt.if of two yaso— .theseweerernoHaer.) He most important most important they should not run the risk of stopping the course of events so satisfactory to the adoption of a measure . which would at once apply a stimulus of a powerfid description to the slave trade, namely, a remunerating price in the markets of Great Britain for slave-grown sugar ?—( Hear, hear. ) And if these was one thing more than another which would be likely eem ba a c n k of and to check the encouragement for the aba n d onmen t o f th e s l ave trade, it was the unortunate influence w hi c h t h e k now l e d ge that there were in that House gentlemen who would, at all ha zards, open the British markets to their produce, must exer• anysuch intention. that it was know rise on the people of Spain and the Brazil s . H e th ere f ore ; on such a subject the late Governm ent were deserted in the hour of their extrem e need, and i t a ß c u q t ui i t t te m d ,a t s h a e s ß at i i g t h fa t et H io o n n. to G lo n ok tl was a still greater sa tisfaction to hope that the present Parliament would, by a greater and still more decisive majority thau was obtained on that occasion, maintain its determination not to pursue that course of policy marked out by the Right Hon. Gen tleman ; and in approaching the commercial consideration of the sugar duties, endeavour so to approach it its to combine the be nefit of the consumer with the more important interests of hu manity at large.—( Cheers, ) Mr. HUME said, that if the House was determined to put an end to slavery, by excluding all articles that were the pro duce of slaves, be trusted they would exclude cotton, tobacco, and other things, and if they did so, then he would believe they were its earnest ; but when Hon. Members talked of slavery abroad, without considering their population at home, , he doubted their sincerity. The Hen.• Gentleman who had just sat down. had had several new lights broke in upon him since lasf Year. He thought they ought to direct their attention to this question as a commercial question, and to consider how far they could reduce the duty. He believed that West India pro perty was never in s 0 bad a state as it was at present, as estates an that country had produced no-profit. What was the cause of all this ? Why keeping uP improper prices. It was a noto rious fact at. the present moment, that a black in the West Indies cOuld obtain mor e in seven hours than an Eng lishman in sixteen. He believed that, by the course that injustice had been adopted, gross was being done both to the consumer and producer.—(Hear, hear.) The course he thought ought to be adopted in fairness to the planter was to remove restrictions, a nd allow him to carry his produce to the best market. Let them free the colonies from every re striction, and the best results might be expected. He thought keeping up this enormous duty was second only to keeping up the Corn-laws. He thought the Hight Honourable Gentle• man's argument with respect to the slave trade ought to be scouted altogether. He wished, instead of his turning his at tention to slaves abroad, he would do so to the slaves at home. The Right • lion. Gentleman said that the revenue could not bear the proposed reduction in the sugar duty ; but in his opinion, the revenue like every other national interest, would ultimately benefit by the alteration. The people of this country had not the means of contributing to the revenue, while they contributed at the same time, as was the case under a system of racholtly) to enrich individualP. He believed that if the Right - Hon.. Gentleman admitted foreign sugar at a duty of 30 per cent., instead of at a duty of 50 pot- rent., he would find that we should have an increased consump. -tirin of one million cwt., and that would give a revenue of 5,500,0001. instead- of 5,000,000/., which was the present amount. - They were proceeding on a most erroneous system— a system which injured -many parties, and benefited none. O n these grounds he supported the proposed reduction ; and in his opinion the course they should adopt was that of gradually, from year to year, lowering the duty, until they had adopted to the fullest extent the principle of free trade. Mr. P. M. STEWART s: that they had had three pro posals submitted to their consideration —The proposal of the Government for a continuance of the present duty, the pro posal of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Bath, for a total abolition of all duty, and the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr Lahouchere), for effecting in the du y a considerable reduction. Now with regard to the proposal of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, he had no hesitation in saying that no man alive to the interests of our colonies could have supported such a motion. With regard to the pro • posal of his Right rion. Friend, he admitted that in principle it was just ; but he could not. under the circumstances in which our colonies were, approve of the proposed reduction of the duty. He thought that it would be unfair to expose them to a com petition with colonies producing slave-grown sugar, and not subject to any of th e b ur d ens w hi c h our own co l on i es had to bear. If there was any prospect of amelioration, the Government. would be to blame if they did not take their stand on the principle of working out the experiment they had commenced, and of which these differential duties were the protection. In lt+33, by wise, because just, interference, the country gave up the system of slave cultivation. What was the effect of the competition into which they were forced by this measure The cost of the production of sugar had been increased. T he colonies now were to be treated as integral parts of the empire ; upon these grounds he could assist in bringing this question to a settlement in a commercial shape ; 'but he could not look only to one side of the qmstion. Ile would enter into com petition with all the world, but he protested against going into the contest with ine hand tied up, and against those who would enjoy at once the advantages of a free trade and slave I labour. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Gentleman appeared to have argued the question without a decided opinion, both as a free-trader and a c - dottrel proprietor. if his opinion appeared at all inconsistent, there were many others who had shown equal inconsistency. Upon the present occasion, he conceived that the House might well consider whether it was not an opportunity in which the House could evince by some prectical proof their wish to diminish the price of the main articles of subsistence. They had heard that this was to be the object of the great changes that were in contemplation; yet though that was the object the Government had the most nearly at heart, and the House wished to accomplish, somehow there appeared to be great difficulties in attaining it, with respect to any of the great primary articles, of subsistence. With regard to some articles, which, to the working classes, were of the greatest importance, the tariff had already been altered so as to give sonic relief front taxation ; on salt, coal, and candles, and other articles, there had been a re duction, or revision, of taxation. With respect to the great articles they were now to consider : beginning with the great necessary, bread, they found they could not make any great reduction in that main article of subsistence ; that for it they must be independent of foreign supply, and they must consider the interest of those who produced forty eight millions of quarters a-year. Then they came to the great articles of cheese and butter, and here they found the revenue was so concerned that it was impossible to make any reduction of duty upon them.— ( Hear, hear. ) On cattle, and on wheat, they had changed high and prohibitory duties for much lower ones, but then it was unfortunate that at the same time they received the un fortunate assurance, and from the same authority,that the!people were not likely to derive any great advantage from a reduction in the price of meat. Then in the very important article of sugar, important from the improved habits of the people, which it was the duty of every Legislature to re mote, he was sorry to hear that they must be content with the promulgation of their wish to reduce the cost of subsistence. They reduced, to au almost nominal amount, the duties on 500 or 600 articles, which never came into the consumption of the working classes ; but on the comforts of the great body of the poor, the change was of little importance. With regard to the great article, sugar, they found a diffi culty in the way. The Vice-President of the Board of Trade could not concede any reduction of duty, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed the continuance of a prohibitory duty, contrary to all the principles announced by the Govern ment. The price of sugar, at the latter end of 1841, was 355. per cwt., and at present he believed it was 38s. The price of foreign sugar, with the duty, was 545. per cwt., The difference in the duty proposed by his Right Hon. Friel d would amount to is. 10d. a cwt., which, said the Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. would make a difference in price amounting only to id. a lb. ; but that, he would remind the Right Hon. Gentle man, small as it might appear, would make a most important differeneo in the weekly bills of the poor man. He (Lord .1. Russell), in speaking of the proposed reduction of the sugar duties last year, had stated that one great object of the then Government in proposing the reduction, was to prevent an in crease taking place in the price. That argument had last year been treated by Hon. Gentlemen opposite as absurd. y lie ( Lord John Russell), however, thought it a sound one ; but this year he had had the happiness to hear the same argu ment made use of by the Right Hon. Geutleman at the head of the Government respecting cattle and other articler. That had been his (Lord John Russell's) argument with respect to sugar ; but so far from being held good with respect to sugar, it was held to be ridiculous, although perfectly good with re gard to cattle.—( Loud cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman took two grounds for refusing to assent to this motion—the first was, the loss which must accrue to the revenue, which was es mated at from 600,0001. to 400,0001. ; but with respect to the tariff generally it should be recollected that they were considering how they could sacrifice one portion of their revenue for the benefit of the people. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that there was a deticiencey in the revenue amounting to two millions and a half. He proposed to lay on additional taxa tion to the amount of 4,300,000/. ; and he stated that the diffe rence would enable him to lessen those duties which pressed in the most burdensome manner upon the people, and that he proposed to do se in the manner the most likely to reduce the cost of subsistence generally throughout the country. If that was the Government plan, there was nothing in which a por tion of the revenue could more usefully be sacrificed than sugar. Other articles on which it was proposed to make a sacrifice of revenue, were not of nearly the necee sity that this article of sugar was of; and throughout the whole range of the Customs duties no reduction could be proposed which would be of greater benefit to the people of this country than the reduction which his Right lion. Friend had proposed. In a petition presented from the coffee-house keepers of London last year, it was stated that twenty-five years ago there were not ter, coffeeLhouses, properly so called, n London, but that now there were 1,800. Surely it was an • portsro to the morals of the people to encourage them to use a refreshing beverage of this nature in preference to having re course to inebriating liquors, and surely a high cost of sugar tended to prevent the encouragement of these moral habits so conducive to the welfare of the people of the United Kirgdom —(Cheers.) Then with regard to the argument respecting the slave trade, if it were proposed to prohibit the importa tion of all articles the produce of slave labour he could un derstand the argument ; nay, if they were to take lower ground, arid to say we will not lower the duties on any fresh I articles of slave produce, there might be some force lin the argument. But he found that. the duty now payable on Brazilian coffee was 15d., and that duty it was proposed to reduce to Bd.—(Cheers.) This reduction was to be made on behalf of slave-grown coffee—(Loud cheers)—so that that which with respect to coffee was per fectly harmless, was, with respect to sugar, an encourage ment of the slave trade.—( Lond cheers.) Then, again, it was proposed to lower the duty on American copper. Why, the American copper mines were worked entirely by slaves (Cheers and laughter)—and the slavery in the copper mines was more horrible than that of any other.—(Cheers.) What became of their virtuous indignation then?—(Loud cheers. ) It was doubtless desirable to put an end to the high restrictive duties on copper, but if they compared the articles of copper and sugar together, lie thought it must be admitted that the welfare of the people of this country would be infi• nitely more promoted by a reduction of the duty on sugar than by any supply of copper that could ever come from abroad. —(Loud cheers.) He could not understand this argument about the slave trade. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, the slave trade was decreasing, but that was in consequence of efforts of a totally different description. That decrease had been brought about by sending cruisers to the coast of Africa, and by treaties entered into with other powers for the sup rression of the slave trade ; and he deubted not but that, by a continuance of such efforts, the slave trade would be utterly abolished. Ile could not see the advantage to be derived from keeping up the prohibition against the importation of foreign sugar, while other articles, the produce of slave labour, were admitted ; and he trusted that, on that occasion, the House would endeavour to carry into effect the principle laid down by the Government, that as the Income•tax had been imposed upon the people, something would be done by the re moval of prohibitions to reduce the cost of living. The inflic tion of the Income-tax was certain ; he feared that the reduc tion in the cost of the articles of living would prove delusive. There could be no doubt as to the heaviness of the impost, but the disappointment would be great, when it should be found that the promises of relief which had been held out had not been fulfilled.—( Loud cheers.) Mr. ROEBUCK supposed that the Noble Lord when he spoke of the necessities of the people, and said that unfortu nately they were unable to lower the price of the poor man's bread, thought, while he was casting a slur on his opponents, to claim to himself the credit of being a person who would diminish that price. That asser--. tion he (Mr. H.) totally denied. The Noble Lord seemed to take pleasure in recounting the difficulties by which the Right lion. Gentleman was surrounded. No doubt the Right Hon. Gentleman was surrounded with difficulties, and ere this he must have felt the working ,of his own iilustration, " that every man had his herring."—( Hear, hear.) The "herring" of the lion. Gentleman who had spoken before the Noble Lord was colonial protection, and if he (Mr . R.) had not checked him by an unfortunate cheer, the Hon. Gentleman would have gone on to demand the re-establishment of slavery, preparatory to applying the doctrine of free trade to the colonies. Did the lion. Gentleman mean to say that the present re strictions upon the colonies in the VY est Indies crippled the West Indian produce, and that. in consequence they were unable to compete with the other portions of the colonies? Because if it was not, it was nothing ; and if it was, he (Nlr. Roebuck) was quite prepared to say that if he brough a motion forward to-morrow, he would be the first to vote with him. Let him try it.—( Cheers and laughter.) But he was the last man to propose it.—( Cheers.) If it was not, that what did it mean' The Right lion. Gentleman came down to the House hound up in the West Indian colonies, and he said that they had crippled their right aria. He said put them on a free trade principle; make us equal with those parties with whom we have to compete, the parties with whom we have to com pete being users of slave-labour. What was the meaning of this proposition, but to restore slavery in the West Indies ? (" Oh, oh.") It was all very well to cry, " Oh, oh;" that was the meaning of the proposition. If it did not mean that, what did it mean? The West India proprietors said it was of ro much importance to this country, that they mutt tax the labour ing classes for whom the Noble Lord felt such a wonderful degree of sympathy and affection, that they were to tax the labouring classes of this country between 2,000,000/. and 3,000,0001. per annum, for the benefit of the %Vest India pro prietors. Now to come to the way in which the Right Hon. Gentleman dealt with the question. They did not wish to give all the glory to the other side.—(Cheers. ) Therefore, they aid, as the opposite party had a stalking horse, they would have theirs, and that should be sugar.—( Cheers and laughter.) They (the Ninisterialists) had given the agricultural c l ass es protection in corn, and they (the Opposi tion) said, they would not have a free trade in corn at all, but in one of those mystifieations which were shown by gentlemen on that side of the House they proposed 'an Ss. duty.—( Cheers.) Why, this was an illusion on the part of the Right lion. Baronet. There would be no dimi nution in the price of bread, and, therefore, it was illusory. The Right Hon. Baronet said fairly he was for protection to to the agriculturists. He (Mt:. Roebuck) quarrelled with him on that. He said he w as f or p ro t ec tion to agriculture, and he proposed it in the shape of a sliding scale. What said they on that side. They wanted to avoid protection, and, therefore, they would propose an Bs. duty. This was the first ; then came the second, precisely of the same description. He (Mr. Roe buck) proposed, not many hours before, the equalization of the duty on sugar, and who o pp os ed him? Why, the gentlemen on his side the House. They said they were for protection ; ;bey werefor keeping out the foreign sugar ; they did not want competition, but they wanted something on that side of the House; aiiil so the Right Hoe. Gentleman and the Noble Lord came with something to go to the country with. They said they wished a discriminating duty of [Os. This was very like the 8.. duty on corn.—( Cheers.) New let them see the consequence. At present there was a duty of 635. upon foreign sugar, and 245. on colonial sugar, which was a difference in favour of our own colonies of ::9s. Now the Right Hon. Gentlemen proposed a duty of 30s. on foreign sugar and •20s. on colonial suga-; making, thereby, a difference of 10s. Now this was the question he wanted answered, would the difference in the duty of 10s. keep out the foreign sugar? If it would not, would it not put out of the market the colonial sugar?— ( No, no.) No; why that was a kind of hoeus pocus.— ( Cheers and laughter.) In the case of foreign sugar he took the figures of the Noble Lord, the price was 21s. H e would take it from the colonies at 395. and the 20s. duty would make 595. ; but '2ls. to 30s. duty made 51e. So that there would be a difference in price of foreign sugar and colonial sugar of Bs. Was that protection to the colonial interest ? It was or it was not. If it eas to keep out foreign sugar it would be no protec tion to the colonial interest. He wanted to know how they could get out of that. Now his proposal was 245. to be paid, so that ' , ls. and 245. would make 455.; and 395. and 215.---03 e, and the difference between foreign and colonial sugar would be IBs., so the whole of the great discussion was upon that point that there should be some distinct-on between colonial and foreign sugar, and by a kind of mystification, they wanted that the country should be benefited by cheap sugar, and the colonies to get advantage from protection. Now, this was a fallacy. It was either one thing or the other. It was either protection or no protection. If it was protection, they had dear sugar ; if no protection, it was at the expense of the co lonies. He did not like to mince matters, but he was alto "'ether against the colonial system. It was a system by which the' people of England were taxed. The Noble Lord was there to quarrel with the proposal which he (Mr. I 1.) had made. Now he had something to say to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, who would not ans wer his proposition, though he did answer the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay). lie could reply to the Right lion. Gentleman's proposal by saying, that danger to the revenue would be incurred by its adoption ; but no such objection could apply to his (Mr. Roebuck's) plan. Instead of doing that, indeed, it would add to the revenue; it would in crease the comforts of the community, and would be of great rcneral advantage ; and that the Right Hon. Gentleman did not deny. Though the Right Hon. Gentleman did not reply to his ( Mr. Roebuck's) proposition, he said it could be answered, and he supposed the answer would be that it would give them some excase for levying from the people of England 3 or 4,000,000/. of money, when the same advantage could be done to the revenue by another plan. with no harm to any individual except those called the West Indian interests—the in terest of a set of barren islands, for which they had dearly paid, and which they only maintained at the expense of the breath and blood of this country. Where :',id England derive one single advantage from this interest ? Jamaica, to the bott m of the sea, and al the Antilles after it !—(A laugh.) He wanted the representatives of the West Riding of Yorkshire to say what advantage had been received by England in the manufacturing or agrie cultural interests from the West Indies. What benefit did - the poor weavers of Lancashire receive in return for paving dear for their sugar? He knew they had fought for those islands, had conquered them, had lost much money, more blood, and gained much misery. He wanted to know the advantage, he wished to grapple the difficulty there, at its head and front. Let no one go away impressed with a notion that he did anything else but vote away the strength, the health, and the happiness of this country, when he voted fur the differential duty. Yes, he would he making the ioor man—he would use the Noble Lord's own expres sion—pay dearly in his weekly bill, pay dear for that food which he earned with the sweat of his brow, from the rising of the sun to his going down, nay, sometimes many hours before the rising of that great luminary, and many hours after his setting. Ile wished he could see the Hon. Mem ber for Knareshorough, who was usually so eloquent a defender of the people of this country in his place ; hr wished he would go to his friends and ask them what be nefit the weavers of West Yorkshire would derive from the West Indian gentry; he would ask of the House, he would ask of the Right. Hon. Baronet, to give them something more in the shape of argument, than the flimsy thing with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer commenced his statement—viz., that he was about to commence means for putting down the slave trade, at an expense of 4,000,0001. per annum, which was to be drawn, be it observed, - from the pockets of the poor, not front the rich, for theirs would be but a drop in the mighty ocean. For the shadow of the Quixotic hope of putting 1 down the slave trade, they were now about to tax the poor of . this country t• their very life's blood.—( Hear. ) Mr. P. STEWART rose to explain, and said that what he stated was, that he was a free trader, and a condemner of mo nopolies.—( Oh, oh !) The Hon. Gentleman misrepresented him in another part ; he said that he stated that he was for the restoration of slavery by the British nation. Why, he argued in a manner directly the reverse. There never was a more un founded statement than that made against him by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath. Mr. BERNAL said that before they came to a division he I he would say a few words on the subject. To sit there for hours together and hear certain documents read, certain state ments made, certain modes of argument advanced, to hear all 1 that with meekness showed more of the stupidity of an irrational i being than the patience of a rational one. But the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) was a philosopher, I and hated mystification and circumlocution, and he (Mr. I Bernal), too, was an enemy to circumlocution, and hated mys- 1 tification, and he wished to enter the lists of plain dealing. His Hon. and Learned Friend started with one argument, which he l (Mr. Bernal) was not able to meet. He said perish Jamaica ; / drown the Antilles ; ruin your colonies. But that ; did not convince him (Mr. B.) as to the inutility of those solo- 1 rues. He would say, long flourish Jamaica and the Antilles, and long flourish Great Britain. The well-being of the mother country was bound up with the prosperity of those dependen- 1 I cies, as it was with that of the counties of York or Durham. 1 When an Hon. Member Who sat behind him, but whom he did , not now see in his place, had spoken to-night of the expenses of Jamaica, did not the Hon. Gentleman know that Jamaica raised taxes—that it had its poll-taxes, its parochial taxes, and that out of those taxes the salaries of officers employed under Government were paid ? It was said the expenses of re giments in the colonies were paid by the mother country—why wes not She expense of reg ments in Scotland paid by the mother country ? He heard it said that Ja maica paid taxes. Why, FO did Scotland. What were I Jamaica and Barbadoes ? Why, were not the prosperity and glory of England founded upon her flourishing navigation and commerce, her sxtensive marine? His Hon. Friend (Mr. F. Stewart) had risen to defend himself, but he did not require it. What his Hon. Friend had said was, that a most sanatory I and important measure had been passed—the negro eroanci- 1 pasion, and that it threw our West India colonies into a most singular situation ; that they were not prepared for so sudden a step ; that eve , y thing had been unhinged; the system of agricultural labour completely overthrown ; and that at, the present moment there was not a sufficiency of labour for the land. In the West Indies the labourers were independent of the landed proprietors. They required but little for their wants, and in a tropical soil two or three hours a day were quite sufficient for the cultivation of land for the production of provisions. They possessed land to which they had a prescriptive right, and from which he would not be answerable for the consequence of their ejectment ; and he would like to know what la bourer would work without the necessity for so doing He was sorry to say, that the price of sugar was much exagge rated in the printed statements. British Colonial sugar might be bought now, duty included, at about. 60e or 61s. in London. 1 He had as much feeling as any person for the situation of his fellow sufferers, but when he heard that three farthings reduc tion in the price of sugar would contribute to the relief of the artisan of Birmingham or Manchester, he could not sit down with common patience and submit to be classed with those who ' wished to oppress his fellow countrymen. A reduction of 3d. or 4d. might be a relief tothem, but he would tell Hon. Gentle men, that though they might get sugar from Cuba and Florida. and the Brazils, they never would have it reduction of 3d. or 4d. in the pound. When the Hon. Member for Bath talked of this being a boon to the West India interest, he forgot the East Indies altogether, for he should know the duties were equalized, and that the East Indian interest would be equally benefited with the West Indies. He did not vote on the motion of the Hon. Member for Bath, because he was an in terested party, and he would adopt the same course on the present motion.—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide.") Sir R. PEEL said he could not waive his privilege of rising, because it was evident if this debate were allowed to go on between the party opposite, there would be a degree of pique and asperity it would not be right should proceed.—(Much laughter.) It would therefore be necessary for him to inter pose between the Hon. Gentlemen.—(Laughter.) It would be requisite to throw oil on the troubled waters.—( Laughter. ) But he hoped the House would come to this practical conclusion, that by far the safest course they could adopt was, to vote for the proposition of her Majesty's Government, and to leave those other propositions in the hands of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite—( Loud laughter)—for it was evident the adoption of either of the rival propositions would produce no satisfaction whatever.— (Laughter.) He did not speak against the motion for the Hon. Member for Bath, but he voted against it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said it would b entirelyi different, if Jamaica was merged in the sea, arid if the Antiilesf ollowed. These were the principles by which he would convert the House. But he (Sir Robert Peel) thought that calm reasoning was hardly necessary to confute them. The Hon. Member for Montrose wished to maintain these colonies, and all his object was, that:each colony should maintain itself.—( Laughter, and cheers.) Yes, but he ( sir Robert Peel) apprehended his proposition to admit those colonies to unlimited competition with slave colonies, was not the -way to effect that object. He would row ask, would this he any advantage to the artisan of Lancashire or Yorkshire ? Was he to go to a distressed weaver of Yorkshire and to ask him what was to be got from Jamaica ; and if he gave hint an unsatisfactory answer, was he to ask the same question with respect to this country ; and, upon such grounds, was he to state that he was prepared to dissolve the whole connection with this country and the colonies ?—( Hear, hear.) If that ' was the course the Hon. Gentleman was prepared to pursue, they must resolve their powers into their own shores, and try what England could do against the world.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask the House whether the Government was not intiticd to demand its confidence with respect to this proposal.-- ( Hear, hear.) The proposal was, that for another year year the annual vote on the Sugar Duties should be granted. That was the proposition on which the House was called upon to decide. He would ask hail the Government taken a course . . with respect to the amendment of the tariff, which disentitimi it to the consideration of the House ?—( Hear, hear.) He would venture to say that the weakest of all interests in that House in political votes was the West Indian interest.—( Hear, hear.) It might in an unreformed Parliament have been powerful ; but, looking at it in its present state, he thought it would be a most unwise step to create enemies in England for the purpose of supporting the West India in terest. The Noble Lord opposite had taunted him with re spect to the course the Government had p ursue d ; now , lie had been ten years in office, and he had never proposed any alteration in the tariff . ; he had never p ro p ose d t o alt e r the duty on the importation of foreign cattle. What, however, had been the course pursued by the present Ministry. The) had done all they could to give a facility to the imporation of foreign cattle. When the Noble Lord talked of the fear of offending powerful interests, he would ask, had he net run as great a risk as Minister ever ran, when he saw a hundred Members prepared to vote against him, and yet was deter muted to proceed ? The Noble Lord had put forth a propo sition entirely different from last year, and he, therefore, could not blame them for opposing a proposition which he now opposed himself. He could not agree with the Hon. Gen tleman who had spoken, that the reductions he had adverted to would be disregarded ; he went upon a different principle, consi dering that the increase of small savings was a great good. But he was not prepared upon that ground to incur a risk of a loss to the revenue of 600,0001. Ile had been told that the Income-tax would be more productive than he anticipated, and that, therefore, they shculd diminish the duty upon a commo dity which entered so much into t he consumption of every class as sugar. Now if he had yielded to the argument in each par ticular case which might be urged, he would venture to say that at the end of next year, notwithstanding the Income-tax, he would have a sleficit in the revenue amounting to 2,000,000/. No doubt it would be a great advantage to re duce the duty upon wool, or upon cotton, or upon various other art icles ; but it was impossible . that a Minister of the Crown conld recommend extensive re ! duct ions in each of those articles. Again, be would venture to say that they could not confer a greater benefit upon the people of this country than by . reducing the duty on the . manufacture of glass; but the public exigences dad not admit of that re duction. He could not now coast •nt to sanction a measure which would lead to a reduction ta r Wl,OOO/. a -Near in the sugar duties, for the purpose even of gaining the benefit. whici he admitted to be a considerable -le, of a /eduction of three farthings per pound in the price of th, it article. On that. ground, therefore. he could not accede to , the proposal of the Bight Hon. Gentleman. But he should ai so say that they could not properly consider the question wit.} out also taking into consideration the effects of the conteml dated changes. upon the West Indian interest.—(Hear, hear.) H e doubted whether the West India colonies, in vi.b.ich slavery had been been abolished, could at rresent competeso - ith coun tries is which slavery existed. '1 hat was also the 01 - onion of Mr. Deacon Hume, a man who carried the principles of free trade as far as an man could carry them. But Mr. Hun, •e w aa of opinion that, 'in considering the competition betweeti th e colonies in which slavery was abolished and those in vei'ich slavery still prevailed, they could not apply the principles of free trade. Mr. D. Hume stated his opinion upon the subject as follows: --'• I cannot concei7e, having thirty years ago abolished the slave trade, and having now abolished slavery,. that any question of free trade could arise between Jamaica and' Cuba ; Cuba, with abundance of fresh and rich soil, not. only having the advantage of employing slaves, whatever that may ise, but notoriously importing the enormous amount of 40,t.00 or 50,000 every year; having, in fact, the slave trade and slavery, and as the law of this country had deprived the planters of Jamaica of that advantage. I consider that is question that is taken entirely out of the category of free, trade." That was the opinion Of Mr. Hume, placed by him deliberately on record. Now was there any pressure at the present moment upon the consumer, in respect to the priest of that article, which compelled them to proceed immediately to reduce the duty ? He found that in 1840 the average price o f sugar was 495. Id. ; in 1841 the average price was 39, Id. : while the price during the last month was only 375. 114 d. Now, let it be remembered that there had been an increase of consumption during the last year, as well as a reduction of the pries There had been a greater consumption of sugar during the last year, absolutely and without reference to the population, than there had ever been before. Tile consumption had amotintvC during the year to 4,0(X),000 cert. The main ground, however„ upon which he opposed the motion of the Hight Hon. Gentleman was that on which he had grounded his opposition to a similar motion last year—namely, that 1:e did not believe that it would be for the honour or the character of the country. He thought that they should not open the markets of this country So the pro duce of slave.holding colonies, without insisting on receiving from them some concession in favour of the slaves, or an equivalent. What was our position with respect to that great country,. with which we stood in such important relations—he meant France? They had recently beheld France refusing to - .atify a treaty whltla had been signed by her, on the subject of the slave trade. Impu , .. Wiens had been cast upon the character, the honour, an& the disinterestedness of this country in respect to its pro ceedings relative to the stave trade ; and he said it was of great'. importance that they should not lightly take any step which would abate the confidence of the world in the disinterested ness of their inotives.-11ea , , hear.) This country hail held out a great example ; and there was a growing conviction among stave. bolding countries that slavery was accompanied with great dangets. In Cuba, in the United States, and in the Brazils, there was a fer ment in the public mind in respect to ~slavery —not merely with respect to the slave trade, but in respect to slavery Itself 1 some: from humane and benevolent motive , , some'from interested tars, were anxiously looking to the great example which this country had set. It was impossible to see the difference of feeling that ex isted between the Northern and Southern States of America, with. out perceiving that slavery stood on a very precarious foisting and the same feeling had extended to Cutia.and Brazil. He read an extract from a letter from a naval ;Meer in Cuba, showing that there was an indisposition to engage in the importation of slaves, from an impression that the system would' cease at no distant day, and consequently to increase the importation of slaves was only adding to the risk and embarrasarrent.of that' time when it came. If this feeling had penetrates! to Cuba, was it not likely that it would prevail still more powerfully among the enlightened people of the United States ? In all negotiations on ti:itsque,tion, eonees_ sions should be mutual; this was the principle aeted on with regard to Texas and Franca; and concessions from slave -bolting countries on the subject of slavery ought to he sintultaneco.'s with any concessions of duty on our part. Tliete were cirscuinstances connected with the cultivation of sugar that did not apply to other articles, such as tobacco and cotton, the cult3vatreo of the sugar plant being eminently destructive of human lite. He believed that, to admit the sugar of Brazil without any stip elation for the welfare of the negroes, would detract from the charac *.er of the country, and its power and infitience in foreign nations. A coeflict was going on in those countries; and while they ma;n tained their present position—while they could repel, by their acts;, the imputation, that in voting the twenty millions for extinguish ing slavery in their own colonies, they had been actuated by other than pure and disinterested motives, they should be able to speak to those countries with authority. But if, while no great tires sure existed, they relaxed the duty in favour of the sugar growers of Cuba an 1 Brazil, their present influence would be materially abated, and they would be unable to make those exertions in, favour of the continued progress of this great cause, on the °anti nuance of which exertions the ultimate extinction of slavery must materially depend.—(Cheers ) Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not suffer the debate to close without alluding to one observation which had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that during the ten years that the late Government had been in. dttice, they had never proposed to remove the prohibition on the importation of cattle. Now, with respect to those ten years, he had no reason to take blame to the Government of which he was a Member for any neglect, for he doubted if in the course of any tea consecutive years, so many important measures had been proposed and carried.—(lmmense cheering and counter cheering.) With, respect to questions of free trade, he begged to observe, that he thought it was at all times in thepower ofan.Opposition, although not by a•iy- means strong in the House, by aiding protected interests, to prevent the carrying out of such measures—at least, he had found such to be the case from experience. It was not difficult to frame some motion by which, without giving expression to prin ciples opposed to those free trade principles which were professed by the Right Hon. Baronet and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice. President of the lioard of Trade, free trade measures might be effectualiy prevented from interfering\ with protected rights.— (Cheers.) Lord Althorp had found that to be the case in IE3I, when he proposed a diminution of the differential duties on tins. her.—(Loud cheers.) The principle of that motion had not been impugned, but yet a motion had been proposed and carried which effectually prevented Lord AltliorV from carrying the principle into effect.—(Cries of " Heat', hear.") Sotne years afterwards a motion had been brouilit forward oi. the subject of this very question of sugar, proposing ii diminution tJ the pro. inbitory duty. A mode was found of opposing the proposi:kth of a re olution founded on this very question of slavery. Such boing the result of their experiment in two Instances, he thought Off were justified in having recourse to other measures of great inapt* • lance, in which the Opposition could not form a coalition with pro. tested interests.—(Cheers.) When the Right Hon, Gentleman re ferred to the risks which he had run, he (Lord John Russell) would aisk him if be had been met With a similar opposition. — (Heir, hear, and cheers.) With respect to this very question of cattle, one Honourable Gentleman had proptsed that the payment of the duty should take place by weight instead of by had. For his (laird J. Russell's) part, lie had no prafereace of one mode of payment over the other. To the one proposition In itself he could accede as readily as to the other. But the proposition of tie Government was brought forward for the purpose of doing away with prohibition, and admitting cattle at a moderate duty, and be cause the other proposition to take the duty by weight had beers brought forward with the intention of raising the duty, without any obligation to support the one measure in preference to theother, but because he thought the Right lion. Gentleman was proceeding upon a right principle, he (Lord. J. Russell) and those with whom lie generally acted, had given him their support—(Cheers.) If they had pursued another line of conduct, anti voted against the Government, the majority of the Right Hon. GentleriMt would not have been a large one; and if all who sat on that side of the House had taken the same line, the Right Hon. Gentleman would have been in a minority.—(Cheers.) But instead of that they had given their support to the Government, because they considered they were carrying out free trade principles. On that point it wile a subject of congratulation that the Right Hon. Gentleman was its power, for he thought that if the late Government had brought fotward a similar proposition for the adritission of oattle, they would have been defeated.—(Cheers.) Whereas, acting as au Op. position, they had had 'lna pleasure of enabling the Right Hon. Gentleman to carry it.—(Loud cheering.) Colonel SIBTHORP, amid loud cries of " Divide, divide," which rendered him frequently inaudible, denied that the late Go. veroment had ever brought forward any one good measure. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Committee divided — For the Amendment Against it Majority against the Amendment . ...... PARISH CONSTABLE'S BILL. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that as many alterations were pro. posed to be made in this Bill, he proposod to refer it to a Corn. mittee tip stairs. The Tithe Commutation Bill went through Committee, pro ,forma. PUBLIC HOUSES BILL After a short discussion this Bill was reported. COPYRIGHT REGISTRATION BILL This Bill was ordered to be committed on'Wednesday next. BUSINESS FOR MONDAY. In answer to a question from Mr. HUME. sir R. PEEL said, that, according to the arrangement entered into in the early part of the evening, the Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) would take precedence with his Bill for the bet ter discovery and punishment of bribery and treating at elections for Members to serve in that House; and then he (Sir IL Peel) would proceed as quickly as possible with the tariff The other Orders of the Day were then disposes' of, and the House adjourned eta Quarter to Two o'ClOak till Monday neat. FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE. ST. JAMES'S-PALACE, JLINF. 1, 1842. The Queen was this day pleased to, confer the honour of Knighthood upon George Hayter, Esq., Member of the Aca demies of Rome, Florence, Bologna, Parma, and Venice, Painter of History and Portraits, and Principal Painter in Ordinary to her Majesty. The ueen was also this day pinata to confer the honour of Knighthood upon William Charles Rags, Esq., A.R. A., :Minia ture Painter to her Majesty. The Queen was also this day pleased to confer the honour of Knighthood upon William Allan, Esq., President of the Royal Academy of Scotland, and her Majesty's Limner for Scotland. The Queen was also this day pleated to confer the honour of Knighthood upon Henry Rot ley Bishop, of Albion-street, fly de-park, Esq. WAR-OFFICE, JUNE 3, 1842. Regiment of Dragoon Guards—Cornet G. R. Hamilton to be Lieutenant by purchase, vice• Cowley, who yetires Sir W. H. Don, Bart., to be Cornet, by purchase, vice Hamilton, June 3. tith Regiment of Dragoon—Lieut. R. M. Peel, from the Ride. Brigade, to be Lieut. by purchase, vice Cathrey, who retires, June 3. llth Regt. of Light Dragoons—Lieut. F. Sutton to be Cap tain, by purchase, vice Vivian, who retires ; Cornet M. C. ii. Cave to be Lieutenant, by pnrchase, rice Sutton ; W. S. . &slides, Gent. to be Corner, by purchase, vice Cave, June 3. 16th Regt. of Light Dragoons—Cornet J. R. O'Conor to be Lieutenant, by purchase, vice ('odrington : who , retires ; J. A. Mayne, Gent. to be Cornet, by purcl to e, b r e ic sco e e oCo nd t L io i r e , u J t u en n a e n 3 t, . dth Foot—W. K. Grettem Gent., by purchase, vice Sutton, promoted in ith Foot, June :3. 7th Foot —Capt. L. W. Yea to be Major, by purchase, vice Sir W. P. Gallwey, who retires ; Lieut. Lord J. Butler to be Captain, by purchase, vice Yea b ; 3 S pu ec r %n a d t.(,, L , v ie ic u e t. Lo F r . d S .r t . it n tc t i , r t i : I f e ro r, rn F 3 'oo . t, to be Lieutenant , June 17th F oo t—Assistant -Surgeon A. Smith, from the 34th Foot, to be Assistant-Surgeon, Fraser, who exchanges, June 3. 23d Foot—G. Philipps, Gent., to he Second Lieutenant, without purchase, vice Raitt, whose appointment has been can celled, June 3. 27th Foot—Captain R. Elli s , front half-pay, 18th Light Dragoons, to be Captain, vice Brevet, Major W. Amsinek, who exchanges ; Lieut. 11. D. Cholincle.y to be Captain, by pur chase, vice Ellis, who retires ; Ensign 11. R. M. Prim: to he Lieutenant, by purchase, vice Cholineley ; 11. Noble, Gent. to he Ensign, by purchase, rice P4or, June :1. 34th Foot —Assistant-Surgeon R. W. Fraser, M.D., from the l7th Foot., to he Assistant-Surgeon, vice Smith, who ex changes, June 3. 42 d Fool —Captain H. Wainwright, from half-pay Unat tached, to be Captain, vice Brevet Major G. Montagu, who exchanges, receiving the difference ; Lieut. H. M. Drummond to be Capt a i n , by purchase, rice Wainwright, who retires; Ensign A. Ramsay to be Lieutenant, by purchase, vice Drum mond ; Gentleman Cadet S. 1). Abercromby, from the Reyal Military Collega, to be Ensign, by purchase, vice Ramsay, Juno 3. i