The Sun. — London, England, 1834-03-04 00:00:00

f or the labia of the Guei is nor to the recommendation • fe ur r tetlin a dtffercnt to ' restore that allowance to its siandard. • Mr ey s nit -`IIII3ETT expressed his astonishment that the _,.. te ra "the Guards could consent to cansume 4,000/. a -I.:itr at their table, while so many of their poor country , v ; Were subsisting on twopence half•penny a-day. %es ti' HEN RY HARDINGE repeated his former argu h sadlt in favour of the larger allowance. ier.HUME observed, that if an allowance of nineteen each did not satisfy the officers of the ?heard!em.: h a e -da Y was at a loss to know what would satisfy This he knew, however, that if they ate and drank more than tot hat amount, they would not be very fit for duty afterwars.—(A laneb*) .Mr, T . ATTWOOD observed that he bad been twitted With constantly introducing his favourite topic of paper th . rn°ll l. It was because he felt its vital importance to the p ops -411 Y) and he would bring it forward whenever the op ' s p. , i n it7 presented i tse lf. Th e b on , mem b er f or Middl e . Ast -s W 4 "minentinz on what had . fallen from him (Mr. ate uU( I) tO the indiffsrence ot Government to British l e o ...414 exhibited in some of the recent occurrences on the %Luke; had imputed to him a wish to plunge the C . t rY into war in order to secure the introduction of iew"l °jar! v enrite pap er - money . H e w i s h to p l unge t h e coun t ry , to - But from the low mind low insinuations were ir e xPected.— (A l aug h . ) es JO HN BYNG said, that the pay of the officers of muds was inferior to those of the Line. The Guards :,; (11 4 ,000/. for their mess, and that was all ; seven ,„:4 14 -I „'ena of the Line were allowed 1, 4 00 1 . fur wine only, seven battalions of Guards were not allowed one - 7414 . ' l 7Aftt %P it . r —en , words from Mr. HAWKINS and Mr. ELLICE, : 'WKS agreed to. ' . (1 1 , - ," e ' n ezt vote w as 122.143/. 3 4 . 5,1., f or th e p a y o f . b3:l l 4lB taff officers and officers of the Hospitals serving Is Majesty's forces, and of the garrisons of the •?!.0,41.e Ports, the Tower of London, and Windsor •41. ,In proposing this vote, !A,),;e; l -LICE said he would state to the house n e had no t b een a bl e t o re d uce t h e S ta ff a s 'these " M conformity with the recommendation of ewe-"Mnsittee last session. In his application to the Lander i n -Chi e f f or t h e usua l reports on which lara;Te the es ti mates o f t h e year , h e h a d entreate d h the attention to thi s point, in ord e r t o c o mply with is rtsbat4Pec t ations of the house, if it could be done with due V4,l;:_ t ° the effi c i enc y o f th e serv i ce . Th e answer o f th e th_ -- "dee-in-Cni e f was not in favour of the reduction, ground that the mode of effecting it—namely, the • -"alidar of and Adjutan•-Gene lo t as -ion the Quarter-/Master etP, Would be anything hut advantageous . to l the d thip - ta v 'raioe. The duties of each department, his or - Itibil - f ed s to be as distinct as possible, one being for the hib, t ram t clothing of the troops, the other for their - ' tsiel y -° ,, n l and any att e mpt at consolidation would b e cer , array - titaental to th e e fficiency and comfo r t o f th e t• '6 ''''Parte D . ...ee letter also stated that the h e ad s o f th ese de aZ4 Were part of the personal staff of the King, and " U gh the army had been doubled since 1792, the wai llat of the sta ff h ad not b een at a ll i ncreased. That ' twillvbat had been written to him (Mr. Ellice) by the " "Ati nlisnde relo-Chief. Still he should, by the next year, j ho re tho roug hl y i nto t h e su bj ect, an d he hoped, - -a wil Zare, the hon, member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume) 10 4 Place co nfidence in his (Mr. Ellice's) pledge, not ,•,,ifelkod one single shilling which he found could with t %t2' be saved.—(H ear, hear. ) On the subject of the tob_ 4 rehip of Windsor Castle, he must also request the tin e gentle f or b earance . Thi s o ffi ce was one which • du e .4 fact an appanage of Royalty, and necessary to its 4 4 444 and dignity. He certainly could nut look upon I. office, and , therefore he hoped if be put it .1 1 ,4„ military n ot o `,,lntne other and more fitting head the house would Myth leot to it.—(Hear, hear.) The right hon. Secre reduced the vote to 121,8481., which was put • 41eta Chairman. `a ME said some persons might think it extraor ‘. • 0 41 0 ,1,__ th at be, a civilian, should choose to give opinions • alee n - i 'r t a Purely military ; but the fact was, there were W itho ut cowing eraning to right conclusions on these matters aaas' a . - ` ef necessity belonging to the service. For his snaur r ta he was not surprised at the letter of the Com beiisper*M-Chiet, for he never yet kneW of any attempt of , r la d e to cut down public departments, but the head • ti4 4 . 1 a 4 those about , found innumerable reasons for bon, :lag it as it stood. He wished to ask the right been - t i ee "arY two questions—first, whether anything had Mitte e 7' LI r egard to the r e c o mm e ndation of the cont . - subject of the es, ablishment of a system of the enor a 'a the navy ? and secondly, on the subject of tented to fees at present paid by officers when pre ! toted the as abroad. Compare the amount oin,B3lbolo.e .aSaupdens es of the staff were in 1792, with those mark the result. In 1792 they were " 144 ' 2 4 pine,teB3°/ 10 4,8001. They were in times of establisb n y ew. ; ?et the enormous charge of the military ln l's office was 76 01., but,92 the cost of the adjutant t -general's !crease of 12,0001. a Year,tn they were saddled _deputy adjutan-genThey had an adjutant general, • Major Frith, all of saeevais Major Gareiiner, and a third Would state, useless;itna, Were Ily mute under those circumstances. most , He could not be quite e could take upon Five of the "l u arters h officers at head himself to state, had nothing head- Whatever to do. Was Such a state of things, be was pre- Ca._ gravely to inquire, to be allowed to exist? He (Mr. ") Well knew that lie should be met by the hon. " Rall • ant officer below him, who would triumphantly N u ; • elpiC te *if our army, in 1792, was in such a state of dis : it . i ne, Presented such an ix posing and adequate force as l i d at present ? Be was prepared to deny the propriety peo lle h a question. The army, in 1792, was not pro- Joel governed, and, therefore, there could be no reason, in White or fair argument, to adduce that as an example, on t heY Were at the moment to draw an accurate con '. 4 10 n 7 ., °No/ . ns . ° Pay of the Commander-in-Chief now was 14,_ .1 the Military Secretary 2,7001. The responsibi . • N L . was in the hands of the Hot se Guards, which was not 41:dor fitting. h e h ouse w bi c h h a d t o pay the momi, t ec u t h i have the ex penditure under its own control. The to lt I t l atY at W arought to he the responsible agent, and Chiep ave to take information from the Commander-in- Itlai.i; Thirty t h ousand poun d s were t h us expended, ;, th e ;0 onder a n economical plan, would be reduced to to W as of that sum. If the responsibility he had alluded hate - i n Operation, the hon. member for Dundee could Was Riven the house more valuable information than he '• ker en : l ' l 'd to do, and an ex-member of that house (a late 1:40 142Y St War) might have spoken, as from his own ka t aa - ',""3, and not have given the dictum of the Com. eat i re :e "3 Chief.--(Hear.) The establishment in India f th ku 'Token of, it was ) on a different footing from that k ltai n : in g's forces ; if the latter we; e to the same effect, i 4th p, n A Of three•fjurths might be made in the present , a„, h ' ur e• Mr. Hume concluded by proposing an e t i n -e nt, that the estimate proposed, 120,8481. 18s. 6d. to 1 12,048/. 18s. 6•!. 44 ee; ilel DAVIES supported the necessity of reduction. Itiese-Yentliture of our colonial establishments was int ' ' 4 6a there ought to be—they imperatively called for— . ' teasel! Most searching inquiry. The lion. member ytit hit - m lo read various extracts from the publishe ' es , in. support of his position. The governor of I f ad „ et seanada had an allowance t f 9,600/ per annum, for other items that could not be defended. 14v or 1 , 9 „ 4i tion existed P to place the colonial government oLf ould " t 'Y Upo n the rincip'e of retrenchment, salaries • 1 th e l kit, th en , be permitted, which were not called for I zet a t-ttl h at ure of th e service, and which the nation could blr v Moment afford to give. Nam; ELLI CE would assure the hon. and gallant 4 it t ,,, vv i that if he had made these objections above st-tits tallertl-Ze,n,t o bservations need not have been made. From eeo s a l ' given tae'ore that comnaittee, he would have :easy "erenlly impressed. Sir James Kempt had . be-n h " v ela s ,l l4 " , and the evidence which he bad given might e Zual. -,,,,,e(Melusive. The Canadians did not require the h,were4,;;e:allant member to t nlighten them, their eyes Z4"reWas al well as hi s . He should have known, and 114,, the Lon member for Oldham knew that therefore • erefore would hear him out in his (Mr. °reld 4,l4;aternents. The gov e rnor of that province, • ar f° h et had a pension-4,0001. a year was not too to ka Ll;,th-at officer. The evidence of Sir litnes Kempt, (4,; a d b..fore allotted to, had stated . that . that noble had to pa 2,3001. for furniture In fact, 414 gal eneral) felt a disi y uclioation to go on such services. • *i l l Eeller a li Al.• rhe a , W Y came back beggars, and the chief question te ,94 •G..- L how they were to live in such colonies. eitae as W ho Gibi s bad paused, and Sir Cohn Campbell, go v „ °t On affluent man, had made objections to go oaa l ` r nor to Nova Scotia. It Lord Aylmer's pen. w - a t it w'ele.n, Mooted up stairs, it could have been debated ttit tne proper place, and he considered the house tl et'at arena for their starting such objections. n lonhilecrety4llolNGE concurred with the right ho Pervi e S t War, respecting the nature of the c . o• ttaa Itt tte h°n, • r , " ; but he could not so far coincide with him in "ns,and gallant member who had preceded him Pro error a„ Per pi a 'n selecting the floor of Parliament as the i y h 4 4 Wei.-eeventee°.ll3alte these objections, which he csnst , bi t h •el• 1, 5 d , and proper to be matte. General . Lord .e ti Ter, h e iihu:en alluded to—he was a most distinguished ,d is lien e k n i'vl,aieryid With honour in the . Peninsula, and b it "It, y q eh he had received for his hard and tlta en i:mat honourable services, ought not to have mio aCcou na i n the pr e sent debate.—(;ear, hear.) There was a difficulty, no one who knew the ser vice could deny it, of Betting officers of that rack in the profession, which slettill cowman" atteirtion, and insure confidence, to take gevsrnor or deputy-governorships in the colonies. The presedt Governer of 13aibadoes was seduced to go out, and the fear of being beggared forced him to entreat to he recalled.—(Hear, hear.) Having stated thus much about the colonial service, he should refer to the staff, upon which he was sorry to find there was a difference of opinion. Mr. ELLICE, across the table, dissented from this. Sir HENRY HARDINGE—WeII, if there be no doubt, there seems to be that approaching to a doubt. General Macdonald was a most distinguished officer, and if there was a difference of epic i,te hetween the right hon. Secretary and the Commander of the Forces, it ought to he referred to the noble lord opposite. The system of corporeal punishment had been mooted ; if it was to be modified, power ought to be given to the staff to re gulate its infliction. Mr. Robinson once said, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he was not to he badgered into concession.—(hear, hear, hear.) He was not desirous that any Minister should be badgered —(Loud laughter)—but he was desirous to state facts. When he had the honour of filling the situation of Secretary at \Star, the hon. member for Middlesex moved the abolition of the office of Army Clothier, and the office ceased to exist. What was the result? Colonel Duffy was examined, and it appeared that the service lost by the suppression of the office—that out of 365 days, the Inspector was employed 350 in the duties of his office.— (Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant member then pro ceeded to enter into some details connected with the Staff of the Army, in which he contrasted the military cha racter of Sir Gorge Murray with other distinguished officers, and contended that his opinion of the necessity of keeping up an efficient Staff ought not to be slighted by the house. Sir Willoughby Gordon was opposed to any reduction, considering this branch of the service to be his first consideration.—(Hear.) The hon, member for Middlesex had stated there was a' Royal disinclination to reduce the Staff, and why did he state se? B-cause the right hon. secretary had not gone into certain details; was it, he would a-k, desirous to bring the noble lord opposite and the Commander of the Forces into collision? —( Hear.) Every effort had been made to obtain most accurate information before the committee; and in page 150, to which he should refer, Lord Fitzroy Somerset had stated there were five majors-general in Ireland. Could the number be more reduced ? Major-General Bingham, when on his death-bed, bad said, that the fatigues of his duties had shortened the measure of his existence. Other general officers had likewise complained, and their number could not he put upon a more moderate estimate. The country should have, in time of peace, a force always adequate, from which a war complement might grow, otherwise it would be had policy, and would lead to a ruinous expense. The hon. and gallant member next alluded to the office of governor of Windsor Castle. It was then held by a most distinguished officer—Lord Mun ster. It was said the appointment of this office would be taken off his Majesty's hands. Earl Munster had served his country for twenty-seven years, seven of which were passed in the Peninsula, and three in India. He had had three horses shot under him, and he thought such an officer could not be too well rewarded. He agreed, however, that it would be much better if the governor ship of Windsor Castle was not held under military tenure. In the year 1833 there were thirty military governments, which were given and distributed to officers for having well discharged their duty towards their country, and in consideration for their able services. In 1792, the number of military governments for the army were half the number they were at present, and there were only about half the number of officers to be recompensed in this way, yet the sum then expended in the shape of mili tary governments amounted to 30,0001. a year. The Committee that sat last year bad reduced these govern ments to the sum of 18,0001. a year. Was it, he would ask, fair, was it just, either to the army or to the officers, that, when their number was doubled, a paltry reduction of 12,0001. should be asked for? As these governments were rather given to officers as honourable marks of die tinction than by the way of emoluments for their services, general officers accepted them, no matter how small they might be. For this reason General Don, on his return from Gibraltar, was satisfied to accept a small govern ment, which did not yield him more than a shilling a day. He accepted it, because he looked upon it as an honourable mark of testimony for his services borne to him by his sovereign. Se far from emoluments of this description being now increased, they were no more than they were at the period of the battle of Minden, and they were less than they were in 1792. The right hon, gentleman con cluded by expressing an earnest hope that his M %jetty's government would take the earliest opportunity of placing the officers of the army in this respect on the same foot. ing as they stood in the year 1792, which would be only doing an act of justice to them and to the service to which they belonged. Lord EBRINGTON•begged to confirm what bad fallen from his right hon. friend below him respecting colonial expenses, and respecting the officers employed in the colonies. In consequence of the recommendations contained in the report of the committee that sat upon this matter, reductions had taken place in those depart ments. With respect to reductions being made in the staff at head quarters, all the evidence given before that Committee, except that adduced by the right hon. mem ber for Dundee, went to show that that staff was not too large. The noble lord here read several extracts from the evidence given before the committee already alluded to, to show that this staff was not too e xtensive. He had one word to say respecting the g overnorship of Windsor Castle. He was extremely glad to see that this vote had been taken out of the estimates—for if the hon. member for Middlesex had moved a reduction in this particular item, he should have felt himself bound to vote for the reduc tion. He had always held that this appointment—namely, the governorship of Windsor Castle—was not an army appointment, nor was it bestowed in consideration of military services. His Majesty always bestowed the place lon one of his personal friends. Sir RUFANE DONKIN made a few observations, most of which were inaud.ble in the gallery. He was understood to say that military governments were regarded more in the light of honourable rewards, than of emolu ments for cervices performed. In France the 811111 of 365,000/ was annually allowed for military goverremen s, whilst we, who were a nation that could so well afford it, allowed only about 18,0001. a year for the sime purpose. Sir• H. PARNELL said, that in the course of the de bate he had been asked whether lie adhered to the opinion he had given while at the Horse Guards, rel ttive to err. tain military appointments there. He certain!) , did still adhere to that opinion, and whilst in office lie had learned much respecting that particular department. The ex penses of she establishment at the Horse Guards ansonnted to 28,000/. a year, arid whilst he was there, he stw that there were many expences which were not of a military nature ; such as expenses for servants, for sixteen her es fir the Commander-in.Citief, sod other items of a similar description. He was surprised that his noble friend should have remarked upon his evidence as he had done, since upon that portion of it there was a note, or parigraph, re commending reduction ;- and if they had not approved of his evidence, they would not have agreed to his report. He would ask whet! er it was necessary that there should be six superior officers in that department for doing what could be done by officers of lower rank equal:) , as well and more economically ? He stated before, and it was still his opinion, that a saving might be effected in this department by choosing persons of lower rank than those now em• ployed, and givi. g them lower salaries and pay. He had not proposed to reduce the grant upon this head, hut he had recommended a reduction of salary. He did not mean to disparage the qtrartermastersgener tl, but lie was of opinion that that department would admit of great reduc tion ; and lie could not see how, if that office was reduced at the Horse Go .rds, it would prevent the having of effi c'ent quartermasters-general for the whole of the service. If this vote should be reduced to 8,0001 , his noble friend would see the services of this department as efficiently and as properly done as ever. Mr. ELLICE that that after the statement of his right bon. friend behind him, it was necessary that the house should see wh•tt they were called upon to do. The amount ex. ended for officers at bead-quarters was 13.5541. 13s. 4d and he did not see how this service could be performed if the vote was reduced to 8.000/., and the recommendation of the committee that s .t last year to so reduce it, was not founded on any reasonable grounds. He did not doubt the knowledge the right lion. gentleman possessed of die War Office ; and lie was cerrain the right bon. gentleman, when lie first got into office, hoped to be able to make several reductions in that department. For his own part, he had atteneed to every suggestion of economy ; but when l:e bad found, almost in every point, and particularly upon this subject, re jections like those contained in the correspon dence of tl,e Commauder-in Chief, he felt it proper to take entice of these objections. That noble lord and distin guished officer was entitled to the thanks of the country_ and no one was more willing than he (Mr. Ellice) to bear testimony to his services—for the creditable way in which he conducted die business of the office. When such was the acknowledged fact, he was not vain or presumptuous enough to put his opinions on this mat ter in comparison with the noble lord's. With out trenching on the efficiency of the service, be had no hesitation in adopting the Commander•in•Chief's opinion on this subject. He had pressed upon the Commander-in-Chief the opinions of that House, cod shown him how eager they were for economy in this de partment. Having made this brief explanation he called upon the bowie to pass the present vote, since the reduc tion proposed would not be of any important good to the country and would be prejudicial to the service. The best way of economising would be, to leave the matter in his hands—to leave it between him and his noble friend, the Commander-in-Chief, who was also desirous of eco • nomy, and of reducing the expenses not only of this but of every other department of the service. Sir H. PARNELL said a few words in explanation. Sir J. BYNG agreed with the sentiments expressed by the right hon. Secretary at War. The house might fairly leave the matter in the right hon. Secretary's hands; for he was sure, that whenever economical reductions could be made, the good sense of the Commander-in-Chief, joined to that of the right hon. Secretary, would seiz e every opportunity of effecting them, if they could do so with advantage to the service and to the country. Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON concurred in the opi. nion of the last hon. speaker, that there was a spirit of eco nomy in the administrationlof the right hon. Secretary at War ; and that it would be better to leave the matter in his hands, since he had taken upon himself half the re sponsibility of bringing about, if possible, reductions in it. The house then divided, when there appeared.._ For the Amendment 59 Against it 243 Majority -184 The original vote was then agreed to. Mr. O'CONNELL and Mr. COBBETT then rose at the same time, hut the latter gave way. Mr. O'CONNELL then moved that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Lord ALTHORP suggested that they should go on to twelve o'clock. He hoped that the hon. and learned member would not object to that course. . _ _ _ Mr. O'CONNELL said, that he was one of those who thought that the time was come when they should make a stand in order to get a change effected in their ploceedinge, and to enable them to do the business by day instead of by night. —(Loud cries of" Divide.") As long as he stood alone he did not venture to put his opin;on in opposition to the universal wish of the house. But now he had 15 or 20 gentlemen who urged him to persevere in his motion, and he was accordingly determined to do so. All they wanted was, that something reasonable should he done.—(Divide.) Lard ALTHORP said, he thought the hon. and learned member for Dublin would agree with him that the best mode of doing the public business was by transacting it when the greatest number of members could be got toge ther.—(Hear.) The question as to the time of their meeting was surely best left to the majority of the house. He admitted that the question whether or not the house should meet at twelve o'clock for the despatch of public business was a fair one to moot ; but be thought it too much that so large a m tjority of the house should agree to this amendment, not on the ground of the policy or impo licy of the question before them, but merely on account of the time at which it was proposed. He hoped that ti e hon. and learned member would not make use of his pri vilege to such a purpose. It was not the best mode of obtaining the end he proposed. Mr. COBBETT said that if the noble lord would agree that none of the members who sat upon that (the Trea sury) bench would give votes or opinions on the several grants, he would agree to go on.—(A laugh.) But otherwise, he would vote for the motion of the hon. and learned member for Dublin. Mr. O'CONNELL could not consent to be bound by such a majority as he knew the noble lord could command. They certainly did get through the public business at those late hours, but they did not do it.—(Hear, hear.) Lord ALTHORP said that this was not a question of principle. If it were, he would not object to the amend. meat.• But he could not see what difference it would make, whether these sums were voted between nine and ten o'clock, or between ten and eleven.—(Divide l) Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON concurred with the hon, and learned member for Dublin, in thinking that much inconvenience and injury was done to the public service by the late hours to which the house sat. if the hon. and learned member wool , ' bring forward some speci fic motion for the regulation of the business of the house, he (Mr. Fergusson) would support him, and he was sure none was more able to grapple with the question than the non. and learned member. He disapproved of taking the business of the very greatest importance to the country alter midnight, but though th it was his opinion, and he should be glad to see the system changed, still he hoped the hon. and learned member would not persist in his motion.—(Divide, divide. ) Mr. HtfAIE said that tke house was not taken unawares by his hon. and learned friend on this occasion, as he had given notice of his intention to make the motion on a former supply evening. The house then divided, when there appeared— For Mr. O'Connell's motion 25 Against it Majority .09 On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. ELLICE addressing the house. Mr. ELLICE stated that it was the wish of the Government to consolidate the three great departments through which the army was at present paid, and bring the whole into that of the Paymaster-General, and arrange ments were now making tor that purpose. It was generally supposed that the office of Treasurer to the Ordnance was a sinecure, but that was nut the c ise, and his hon. and gallant friend who then held that office was in daily attendance upon it. He found that the office of Treasurer of the Ordnance could not be dispensed with till such time as the changes which Le had just spoken of were made. In consequence of the proposed changes, he found that no reduction .could be made in the department of the Paymaster-General. At present there were only 62 cl,rks in the War-office, and these conduct the whole of the accounts of every kind connected with the p iyment of the army. It was gratifying to him to state that such was the manner in which they did their business, that there was not at this moment a single regi ment in the service whose accounts were not regularly audited, and scarcely a quarterly account up to the Ist of January last that had not been examined. He could not miss that opportunity of affording them his tribute of praise. The amount which he should move for was 4,0001. less than the grant of last year. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving that the sum of 90,313/. 4s. sd. be granted to his Majesty as the charge of the al lowances to the principal officers of the several public de partment. of the army from the Ist of April, 1834 4 to the let of April, 1835. Mr. GUEST moved as an amendment that the chair man du report progress. Mr. AGLIONBY said that this was not the proper way to meet the que,tion as to the hours at which the house should sit. He thought the hon. and learned member for Dublin should make a .pecific motion on the subject. Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR said, that he was obliged to artynci there both at the morning and evening sitrin g s, and he found he could not hold ~ u t longer. He hoped the lion. member would persist in his amendment The house then divided, when there appearel For the amendment l7 Against it Majority -182 On our re-admission , 0 the gallery, we found Mr. HUME on his legs. He maintaiued that it was absurd to keep up an es ablishinent, at the expense of 90,0001. a year, which was perfec.ly useless. The office in question was only an impediment to the transaction of public business. He intended to propose to the house that one half of the esta lishinent be reduced now, and the other ball next sear. The hon. gentleman then moved that the sum of 9,0651. to be taken from the present vote. Lord JOHN RUSSELL admitted the propriety of endeavouring to consoliti Ate the various departments as much as possible; but maintained the necessity of keeping the Pay Office as a separate estsblishment. Comparing the 'winner in which the accounts of that office were kept now, with the mode of keeping them in former times, there was a very great improvement. As to the way in which they w.-re kept previous to 1797, no gen tleman who held the office of Accountant General before that time could obtain a settlement of his accounts un•ii several years after his retirement tram office. By the next session of Parliament, he (Lord John Rus•ell) hope.. to be enabled to submit a plan to the house for lessening the expenses of this office, which, though it might not meet the approval of the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume), would, he trusted, give satisfaction to the house and the country. Mr. HUME must say that the system at prtsent acted on, of paying national money was a most absurd one. Let any two intelligent accountants in the country be asked their opinion of it, and they would at once say that a more incongruous system never existed. A commission bad been appointed to examine into this and other mat ters connected with the public accounts. That commis sion had already been sittin L t for nine months, and he (Mr. Hume) supposed it would sit nine months longer, at a great expense to the country ; and yet the recom mendation; of that commission were not acted on. Mr. ELLICE assured the house that no person could be more anxious to practise economy to the greatest pos sible extent than his noble friend (Lord Hill) ; but were The estimate in question to be reduced to the extent pro posed by the bun. member for Middlesex, it would be im. liossible, with that sum, p construct the machinery of the establishment. He had already mentioned that measures were in contemplation with a view to consolidate the ffice in question, and he hoped that the hon. memh,r, under these circumstancts, would not press the house to a division. Mr. COBBETT saw a charge of 26,000/. for army agents. Why, if the army agents were to receive the money from the treasury and give it to the army, where was the nse of a paymaster ? Mr. HUME then withdrew his amendment. Motion agreed to. On the motion being put that a sum not less than 6,977/. Se. 3d. be granted to his Majesty to (Wray the expenses of the royal mili , ary asylum at Chelsea, from the sth April, 1884, to the 31st March, 1835, Mr. O'DWYER moved as an amendment, that the sum be reduced by 2,500/. The amendment was withdrawn, and the original mo tionagreed tn. Mr. BERNAL then reprted the resolutions to the house, and obtained leave to sit again tomorrow. On the report of the Sugar Duties Bill being read, Mr. PATRICK STEWART (we believe) took occa sion to protest against the hnuse coming to a decision on the strength of any medical experiments which might• have been made by Dr. Ur', however distinguished th e talents—and he 'Mr. Stewart) readily allowed them to be so—of that gentleman. The discussion of the Smuzgline Act Amendment Bill was. on the motion of Mr. F. O'CONNOR, postponed till Wednesday. FELONS' PROPERTY BILL. On the motion of Mr. ROTCII, leave was given to bring in this bill, after an objection an the part of Mr. JERVIS who contended that the bill had not been given notice of with sufficient clearness. and that it tended to give too much power to irrespwale magistrates. Mr. F. O'CONNOR also opposed the bill, and threa tened to divide the house. L"rd ALTHORP approved of the principle of the bill. The house did not divide, and leave was given to intro duce the bill. The house then adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock. SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS. The defeat of the Attorney-General at Dud ley, though not altogether unlocked for, is an awkward and " untoward" event to the Govern ment, which gets rid of one law officer, because he proves to be of no use to them in Parliament, while the one of them who was of use to them is sacrificed by succeeding him. It is awkward too, as affording a specimen of the degree of popular; y which the reform Ministry possess in one of the new boroughs of their own creating ; though in that spirit of fairness with which we wish to treat all subjects, we must confess that, as a party matter, this vies of the subject has been carried a little too far, and has been too strongly relied upon by some of the opponents of Ministers. We have good reason for be lieving that two causes, quite sufficient of them selves alone to produce his defeat, operated against Sir John Campbell upon the occasion, and which were quite independent of any feeling towards the Administration—the one, the popu larity, from local circumstances, of his oppo nent ; the other, the umbrage taken by the local authorities at certain expressions said to have been used towards them last year by their then Representative. Be this, how ver, as it may, the probability is that the framers of the Reform Bill will now begin to recognise that as a defect in it which was often pointed out to them—viz., the not providing seats, in virtue of their oE9ce, for all such public functionaries whose attendance in Parliament is essential to the public service. Without pronouncing our selves any decisive opinion upon this suggestion, it appears to us, at all events, preferable to the projected scheme of rendering it unnecessary for persons to vacate their seats on their appoint ment or removal to offices ; which besides being a direct violation of the constitution, would come with but a bad grace from those whose object it has been to improve it. An Attorney- General, perhaps, is the last man upon earth who, even under ordinary circumstances, is likely to stand favourably in the eyes of a po pular constituency ; an Attorney-General who can attack the Press for saying that which a Peer and a Master in Chancery are allowed to say, and one of them to act upon, with impunity, must be strangely infatuated to attempt it. Then why did Sir John Camp bell attempt it, but on the score of mere profes sional etiquette ? The difference in rank be tween the offices of Attorney and Solicitor-Ge neral is merely nominal ; and there could there fore, to our minds at least, be no reason at all adequate to jeopardising, much less to losing his seat, why Sir John Campbell could not have retained the office of Solicitor-General, al lowing Sir Wm. Horne's successor to take that of Attorney. Though partaking very little, if at all, in the exultation or regret which party writers express upon the occasion, we shall cer tainly be induced to look upon Sir J. Camp bell's exclusion from Parliament as a misfortune, pledged as he was to bring in a bill in further ance of an object for which we have so many years been strenuously contending, the abolition of imprisonment for debt, a measure which, we fervently trust, will not be allowed to expire with the Parliamentary exi.Aence of its advocate.— Morning Herald. It is now the daily business of the Tories to run about accusing the King's ministers of hav ing been forced into an accpne , cence in the cum mittee on sinecures by the closeness of the divi sion on the pension list ; and yet these very retailers of falsehood know very well that the sinecure committee was decided on before the other question was brought on. If base motives again have been imputed to ministers for the part they took on the motion respecting pensions, or if it be insinuated that they were adverse to that motion from any selfish views, a minute's reflection must prove to every candid mind the unreasonableness of such a charge. Look over the pension list and see how few names of Whig connection, or Whig recommendation, are to be found there, while it is brim full of Tory lords, ladies, and dependants ; and then for the future, the Whig Ministers had as little to hope for in the way of pension patronage as they had to fear for disclosures or revisions of the past, seeing that they had already cut down the pension list prospectively more than half; and had subjected each grant unreservedly to the control of Parliament. The conduct of Minis ters, therefore, on that question, may have been impolitic,—may have been servile,--we fear that it was the latter ; sure we are that it was the former ; and we should feel ourselves disgraced by defending it, but it was, at least in relation to patronage, disinterested, and we trust that for their own sakes they will, on the next trial, agree to an inquiry into the list of pensions, while for that which has for its object the exa mination of sinecures they deserve unqualified credit.— Times. The Dissenting body, and we are sure the just and considerate portion of our countrymen, s,vill see with satisfaction, from last night's pro ceedinas in the House of Lords, that the petty measure of relief contained in that bill of which Lord John Russell has (reluctantly, we doubt not) consented to be the mediutn of introducing into Parliament, is declared by the Prime Mi nister to be a part only of the concessions which are designed by Government to be i granted in 'avour of the Dissenters. Lord Durham, who is always found on the side of fair and liberal po [ licy, iii presenting a petition from certain Dis- I senters of the North, took occasion to intimate his extreme regret at . the insignificance of that which is ! called:pro forma, Lord John Russell's Bill, regarded as a scheme for the _redress of non-conformist grievances, and hoped that,„io, time the just expectations of that body would fie completely fulfilled. Lord Grey appeared anxious to assure the house, that although the meakure in question related but - to a single subject, each and, all of the hardships which pressed upon the Dissenters were now actually under deliberatiOn by the Cabinet, with a view to afford them relief. Indeed, it seems to us astonishing how a man of Lord J. Russell's known attachment to the cause of the Dis senting body, so far as the redress of their acknowledged grievances was concerned, should nave suffered himself to become the irrputec advocate of a bill so little creditable to i;s authors. We are accordingly much inclined to believe a rumour which has got ground in well-informed circles, that the noble lord was with great difficulty prevailed upon to retain his Cabinet office, when he - found the Sort of task which had : been imposed upon him by the majority of his colleagues, who in this re spect seem to have acted by him as unfairly as he has treated them in the affair of the Chelsea chaplainship.— Times.' • We learn from East Kent that the news of the appointment of Mr. Gleig to the chaplaincy of Greenwich Hospital has given great offence to the Reformers of that part of the country, who have a keen recollection of the lengths to which the reverend gentleman carried his parti sanship. They do not allude merely to his writings, first in the Kentish Gazette, and after wards in the Kentish Observer, which owed its establishment in a great measure to him, but to the prominent part he took in electioneering. Sir Edward Knatchbull was greatly indebted to his. zeal and talents, and the accounts of the Sandwich election, at which, at the head of a party of horsemen, he was a prominent actor, are not yet forgotten. All this only proves that Mr. Gleig was more than a nominal Tory—that he was not ashamed of his principles, and that he was ready to go all lengths to drive the Whigs from office, and to give the ascendancy to his own party. But how Lord John Russell, a Reformer, the champion of civil and religious liberty, the advocate of church reform, should not only pass over every Whig clergyman who had claims on his party, but travel into East Kent in order to find an Anti-Reformer—a Tory —a pluralist (for the rev. gentleman is already rector of Ivy parish, and curate of Ash, about twenty miles distant) fbr the chaplaincy of Chelsea Hospital, is what the public cannot so easily understand. By the bye, we understand that Mr. Gleig is not the only non-resident clergyman in the district in which his rectory is situated ; but that in twenty adjoining parishes, with a rental of between 60,000/. and 70,000/ , there is not a single resident clergyman. So much for Lord Jahn Russell and the rector of vy.—MorningChronicle. The di-cussion of the army estimates was re sumed in the House of Commons last night, and the principal actors on the orca‘ion were Mr. Edward Ellice and Mr. Joseph Homo. This is not the first time that those gentlemen have exhibied together ; their speculations, for inerly, we have heard, were extremely profit able ; their sparring, last night, we thought, was remarkably pretty. It consisted of a series of gentle " touches" and givings way, on both -ides—such as might have been expected to. characterise the discussions of old friends—not parted for ever, but merely severed for a while— and accordingly the army estimates were dis cussed with all the cordiality of the Greek pie. Our space will not allow of our going, to-day, as much into the details of this discussion as we could wish. We have merely time to notice the principal topics that came under consideration the reduction of the staff at head-quarters, and the withdrawal of the vote for the governorship of Windsor Castle from the estimates. The Secretary at War, the representative in the Commons' House of Parliament of the rights and prerogatives of the Crown, as respects the army, last night, in the discharge of his new duties, was placed in a painful position as respected his old alliances. He, however, fought hard to reconcile his duty to his royal master with his consideration for his City friend, and he proceeded something after the following fashion :—" I am as great an advocate for economy and retrenchment, as my hon. friend well knows, as any man ; but official life is replete with difficulties. I thought that great reductions might be made, and ac cordingly I wrote to Lord Hill to say so. Here is my letter, and here is his answer. By these documents my hon. friend will see that I am still a Radical Reformer ; but that Lord Hill is an inveterate Tory. What could I do ? Not being a military man I could not well set up in) opinion against his, and so I wasn't allowed to make my reductions. But let my hon. friend leave it to me. I'll see if I can't settle Lord Hill by and bye, and he shall see that 1 have not forgotten our old acquaintance." And is it thus the King is to be served by his Secre tary at War in the House of Commons ? Is it thus that Lord Hill is to be dragged forward to shield Mr. Edward Ellice from Mr. Hume ? Why, we ask, did not Mr. Edward Ellice, it he did indeed differ from Lord Hill, refer, as he was bound to do, the subject in discussion between them to the Treasury, and take from that superior department an answer, one way or the other ? and why, if he did not choose to abide by that decision, did he not go to his father-in-law and tender his resignation ? No ; that course would not have suited Mr. Ellice. By adopting the other he thought he might both retain his office and bring odium on Loid Hill ; that he should neither separate from the Government, nor split with Mr. Hume ; that he might run with the hare, and hold with the hound. Tliti, , , though the staff at head -quarters was not reduced, Mr. Hume was propitiated. With reference to the Governorship of Windsor Castle, how did Mr. Edward Ellice act tipmi that question, so closely affecting the prerogative and dignity of his Royal Master ? Why there again Mr. Hume was to be propitiated. The Secre tary at War conies down to the house with his estimates, among which the vote for the go vernorship of Windsor castle was included ; and there, with a motion from Mr. Hume on the subject staring him in the face, says not one word upon the subject of withdraN item from this from the estima, es in his introductory speech. On, uo ; that would not be giving Mr. Flume the glory of having diis conceded to his inter ference. That would not be giving Mr. Hume ,he opportunity of making his speech. Indeed had it not been for Sir H. Hardinge's most loyal defence of the office azelf, a n d mos t soi. Bier-like exposition of Lord Munster's fitness ipt..the office ; by reason_ol, his dislitgui,ned Hervices, we are not;, - quite sure whether the governorship of Windsor Castle would not have fallen altogether 'a victim to Mr. Ellice's ancient friendship with Mr. Hume ; and, playing the game,Which.the Right Hon. Secretary at War playing last night, we can well conceive Nhat gall and wormwood it was to him to feel mote entirely the gallant officer led the house vith him when he vindicated (in the tetension )f the office), the prerogative of the King, .vhich had been all hut abandoned by his official servant, and demonstrated the fitness o f Lord Munster to fill it, and not from his connection with the Sovereign, but From his character in the service. But the de nouement came at last, and it was touching to degree ; tender almost to suffocation.—" Oh ! Friendship, what a holy tie is thine !" The member for Middlesex was not to be outdone. The staff at headquarters was retained, to be sure, but Lord Hill was shown up ; the gover norship of Windsor Castle was not to be•abo lished, but the salary was to be paid from another fund ! His motion had not been car ried, hut his feelings had been soothed. All this demanded requital ; and so—" Mr. Hume was of opinion that the Serretarg at War should have a seat in the Cabinet !" One cord in conclusion. We do not object to the old friendship of Mr. Ellice with Mr. Hume, as exemplified in the letters of Messrs. alando and Luriotti".s-; nor to the continuation of it, as exemplified in the debate of last night. But we do object to the abandonment of the King's pre rogative by the King's minister, as in the case of the governorship of Windsor Castle, and to .the introduction of the Commander-in-Chief's name, as in the proposed reduction of the staff at head quarters. We do not object, we say, to these gentlemen for being the strictest friends, but wishing to be thought the sole patriots, in the house ; but we tell them once and for all, that they will hardly succeed in passing them selves off as Ronzans at Westminster till they ceas e to be remembered as Greeks at Guildhall. —Morning Post, BANKRUPTCY COURT, MARCH 1. WILLIAM VENABLES' BANKRUPTCY. Messrs. MERIVALE, FONBLANQUE, and lIOLROYI) sat in a Subdivision Court, to decide upon a point raised of some importance. The bankrupt was an extensive linen-draper in Lamb's Conduit -street, and the proc edings under the fiat have become of more public importance than the ordinary cases by the elaborate decision given by the Lord Chancellor in the case of John Sex Bardwell, who was com mitted by the Commissioners in Subdivision C.,urt, but ordered to be released by his Lordship. The present question was, whether a Mr. Davis, a linen draper, who had dealings with Bardwell, should be compelled to produce his books, to show the nature of his dealings with Bardwell, who is stated to have obtained goods from the bankrupt on terms the creditors think unfair. Since the Lord Chancellor liberated Bardwell he has absented himself, and thus the difficulties of the assignees in inquiring into the bankrupt's estate are increased. The right of the Court to demand the production of Mr. Davis's books was denied, and on this point the Subdivision Court was held, the assignees considering tneir pi o ducticm necessary, as they imagine they can thus trace property supposed to belong to the estate. Mr. ANDERTON, as Counsel For Mr. Dayk, con ten,led that the law would not compel a man to give evidence that might injure him. Mr. Ashurst, the solicitor to the estate, contended poxer was given to the Commissioners to call for papers amid examine witnesses, in order to trace the property of a bankrupt, if they had ref.son to think goods had been improperly removed. Mr. Commissioner MERIYALC said the case was of the first importance. The Tiestion was a nice one, and the Court would take time to consider, and give a format judgment. Mr. Ashurst laid before tli.; Court an affidavit of the absconding of Bardwell, and prayed a warrant for his apprehension. ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE. WESTERN CIRCUI f—WiNenEsrim,MAßcrzs2. Mr. Justice BOSANQUET and Mr. Baron V: IL LIAMS dined at Strathfieldsaye, on their route to Winchester, on Friday ; and yesterday afternoon their lordships opened the Commission in this city. The calendar presents a dreadful catalogue of offenders and offences. There are ninety-seven prisoners for trial, which is very heavy for. this county; among these we find four charged with murder, one with arson, five with rape, six wilt maliciously wounding, and two with unnatural crimes. To-morrow morning, at nine o'clock, the actual husiness of the asszes will commence. Mr. Justice BOSANQUET will preside at Nisi Prius, and Mr. Ba ron WILLIAMS will, for the first time, take his seat in the Crown Court. MIDLAND CIRCUIT—NoRTIT imrroxsitißl7, 111Aacil 3. The commission was opened on Saturday, and the business commenced to-day, Chief Justice TIN DAL pres!ding on the criminal s.de, and the Hun. S r J. LITTLEDALE on the civil. The calendar is heavier than has been known fur many years, there being 71 prisoners for trial, a , ,d the law business is equally so, the list cont ,tin lug nineteen causes, five of which are special. None but the senior members recollect so heavy an assize. DRAGE V. PAYNE. The plaintiff is a horse dealer residing at North ampton, and the defendant also a horse dealer and proprietor of omnibuses living in London. This was an action against the defendant as the drawer aid indorser of a bill of exchange, drawn upon Lord Longford for 2001. payable three months After date, with irverest. A witness was called who proved an admission by the defendant that the indorsement was in his handwriting, arid th it he owed the money. A verdict was accordingly taken for the plaintiff WATKINS V. TAPLEY, CLERK. Mr. Sergeant ADAMS, with whom was Mr. ARK WRIGHT, appeared for the plaintiff, and Mr. HILL for the defendant. This was au action on a judgment to recover the sum of 4,000/. The defendant pleaded payment, but admitted by his counsel, that in the absence of he witness who could have proved it, a verdict must be taken for the plaintiff. A DETERMINED IMPOSTER.--In the course of last summer Al. Dupuytren Was called upon to ex miine a person, who stated that he had been set upon by a,s as ... ,i„ s i n the Bois de Boulogne, but he turned out to be an imposter; and 11. Dupuytren, in making some remarks nn the case, related the following anecdote :—One evening as Nipoleon was walking in the park of St. Cowl, a youn4 man rushed precipitately out of one of the tickets woich terminate the principal avenue, and cried, " Thieves! murderers! S ive the First Consols ". He fell senseless near the group that surrounded B inaparte, and two , urids were found upon his pers , m, which bled profusely. Wnett lie revived he mentioned that he was a student; i l e had been walking in the park, he said, when he hap pened to light upon some conspirators who were in am bush awaiting to assassinate the First Consul ; he hr.the in upon their retreat, and, thus became the victim of his ioya iy. The gate• of the, par k were clos if in a moment, search was 'mute in ab qiiarzers tar the assassins, but in aain. The young man persisted in his story ; he was ex. atnined moss-ex mimed, without deviatiti 4 in the least in any of his &tails. It was shout tifteui y, ars after rha-. he C nifes4,l he inflicted the w.utods on hitnsof.—. Medical Gazette. ■