The Sun. — London, England, 1834-06-24 00:00:00

while I say that, I say on the ether hand that they ought not to be ill-treated. (Hear, hers.) I want that they should not be put in a worse situation than they are at lore -sent. I do not wish that they should pay one penny less. I ask the house if this is not the time to throw ell on the troubled waters ? ( Hear, hear.) I ask you if this is not the time to mitigate the asperities and soothe the rancorous feelings which so universally exist in that coun try ? But what do you do ? You actually do nothing. (Hear, hear.) You are to give a reduction to the land lord, but not for five years—and to the people yoli give nothing. (Hear.) Good God ! Is it not insanity to post pane this for such a period. Five years ! Why, five years is a century in the miseries of Ireland. Why, you might as well prophesy something about millenium as to speak of five years. You might as well sp ea k about some great event about to happen in the year 2,000 of the Christian era, which would bring some happy change. (Hear, hest.) The present plan is, that there should be eto for five years. These years are as ranch an eternity of the evil. (Hear, hear.) . Boet"epresent plan to mitigate the evil Belt? Is it to aggravate it? Yes; for now. only give The lithe owner the right of dis traint !. out If this measure passes into a law, he will not have 'his actio n , but he can se i ze goo d s , ands, crops, end even the body itself. He can invade the sanctity of a 'man's dwelling by night and by . day. You not only give him the lion's share, but you give him the lion's strength. You give him the power without the generosity or lor bearance of the animal. (Cheers.) Let us now look to the change which has taken place in tithes, even in our own time. In the first year of the reign of that deservedly revered Monarch, George IV., the tithe-owner had only recourse against the grower of the crop for his tithes. No one else was liable for them. He could only get them by an action in the Ecclesiastical Courts, and he could not get them by distraint. The occupier had formidable ad vantages. He could say, "I am living in a troublesome neighbourhood, and although I am willing to pay my tithes, cu may not find it convenient to take them away, and I will rawer pay you a certain sum in lieu of them, which will perhaps be more advantageous to both parties." I will do 'the justice to the Protestant clergy to say—l do not speak of the tithe-gatherers, neither do I speak of the Protestant clergy altogether, for I know cases to the cen trary—but I will say, that generally , where the clergy Were themselves on the spot, they and the peasantry seldom quarrelled about the tithes. (Hear, heer. ) The tenants, then, had advantages opposed to those enjoyed by the proctor and larger proprietor; and, as these advantages balanced each other; and as it was for the good of both that they should not dispute, they were generally on good terms. That was the way matters stood at the beginning of the reign of George IV. Now, how stands the case at present ? In the first plac e , th e la n d i s li a bl e f or t h e tithes.. 'The right of distraint is given. An action, as for a civil debt, is given against the occupier, no matter whe ther h.; be the grower or not, and now, to accumulate all the a:lvan:ages on one side, they are made a crown debt, and they are to be recovered as rent. This is to be the sate of i.he tithes, if this measure passes, and what does it signify whether they are to be recovered by the name of tithes, or as the arrears of rent, which the proprietors would never have been able to recover? ( Hear, hear.) Ne 'proprietor receives in Ireland the amount of rent *which appears on his rent-roll. (Hear, hear, and No, no.) -At least, in mast instances, the amount which appears on the rent-roll is much superior to what the landowner pockets; and what will be the consequence under this bll ? The effect will be, that the landlord will be obliged in his own protection to recover the last shilling he is Able, which he inight otherwise be inclined to remit. The f , stering care between landlord and tenant will thus .be real a.ssuscter, and he will become a mere receiver of rent odd tithes—a. torturer, whose only wish will be to extract the last farthing from the miserable tenant. (Hear, hear.) This is- no exaggeration. It is a true picture of what must follow. the pa.ssing of this bill. (Hear, hear. ) At present in the Court of Chancery, it appears a receiver can give the power of abatement in cases where abatement is considered necessary, but under this bill the landlord can not do so. (Hear; hear.) But if the bill have all the effect expected from it by its- promoters--if it have the effect of recovering the arrears of tithes, still I call on the bonito to consider what influence this will have over pri vate property. People talk of the influence which the legis lature have over private property as dangerous, and there fore to be avoided , but what is that danger to that to be created by this bill ? The more I look into this measure the more I am convinced we ought, as statesmen and governors of this mighty realm, to tremble when we mean to enforce the tithes by the strong power of the police. ( Hea-, hear.) See what the consequence will be. If you take upon yourselves to see the clergy paid, then you will have a certificate of the amount to which the clergy man is entitled, and pay it to him. But how are you to recover that sum'? If the honourable member for Mid dlesex falls as'eep, which he is not likely to do, you will have some other member to point-to von that you are laying out half a million to recover thirty thousand poonds. You last year spent 26,000/., and recovered only 12,0001., and I do not see why - what happened last year should not occur in the next. (Hear, hear.) You will be pig hunting one day and blanket bunting the next all over the 'country, and you will come back with the honour and glory of havin recovered 30,000/. at the expense of 50,'1,0001. (Heir. g ) But suppose for a mo ment that vou do recover all the arrears of tithe. Still consider how you are to do so t you must do it by car rying on war front village to village, and from field to field. You must do it by skirmishing and fighting ; you cannot recover the tithes but by blanket-hunting and pig hunting throughout all Ireland. In short, the Govern ment sill become pighunter-general to the Protestant clergy. (A laugh.) If you fail, you must be taunted with weakness ; if you succeed, it will only be by bar barous crimes, and by a war of extermination. (Cheers.) That which ignorance acquired will only be conceded in blood, and retaliation must follow. This is the actual state to which the country will be reduced, and there is no disguising it. It cannot be denied that this bill will make the Government the tithe-owner-general of Ire- land. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I asked but for a redaction of three-fifths of the amount of tithes, but I got n p reduction • I asked for the appropriation, but that is net c .needed. I said that the reduction -of itself would not satisfy the people of Ireland, but that appropriation mast accompany it; I believe the noble lord will do me the jus tice ro acknowledge that I said reduction would not do with out appropriation ; and I will now further state, that the attempt to levy tithes without appropriation will be the malting of unmitigated war upon the people. (Hear.) I therefore say, that if you do not reduce the amount of tithes, give us at least the consolation of appropriation. I admit, willingly, appropriation of itself will not satisfy the people ; but give us appropriation and we can wait for re duction. (Cheers.) I repeat, that I implore the house to give us appropriation. (Cheers. But it will be said that I suggested formerly an improper appropriation—that I wished to give it for glebes and salaries to the Catholic clery. I did no such thing; but I did that which I thought wou'id go far to reconcile the people of Ireland to the Go vernment of England ; I did that which I thought would bring peace—that which I thought would do away with that feeling which makes the Irish ' _people although for 670 years under the dominion of the English Government, still look on that Government as strangers. Give this, and then yeauwill have a right to taunt those who still continue to call you Saxons and strangers. ( Hear, hear.) In at tempting to obtain the adoption of this plan, I risked my own fame and popularity , ; I have lost some already —but I am ready to risk all if I can procure the pa cification of my country. Ido not wish for any part of the revenues of the Protestant church for the Ca tholic clergy, neither do the Catholic clergy theniselves wish for it. It may be asked why the Catholic . clergy are different from all other clergymen—why they should dislike to fake their' support from the Go-' vernment as others do ? I see no difference between' the two persuasions which should make the ministers of the one not like, as well as those of the other, a few of the comforts of this world as a foretaste of the blessings of the world to come ( A laugh); and yet how comes it that they, being but mortal men, and subject to man's weaknesses, should shudder at the notion of any claim being made on their account upon this money to be ap propriated? Does it not bring the foregone conclusion, that the people do not believe that this measure is meant for their benefit, or io bring them peace, and that they would consider that their clergy were going into the enemy's camp and taking pay in order to betray them? Blame this, abuse it, if you please ' • you may abuse and insult ns in your superiority. I talk only facts and state only what I know 1.0 be the disposition of thepeople ; and I say that this disposition is the result of 670 years of unge nial government and misrule. (Hear, hear.) In my motion I throw aside the claims of the Catholic clergy— I ask nothing for them. Tne hour is not come when the Catholic clergy can take it with honour or safety to them selves. I pledge myself that the Irish Catholic clergy will not want any part of it. (Hear, hear.) It has been said in another place, let the property of the Protestant Church be applied to Protestant purposes only ; I say let it be applied to Irish purposes only (Cheers) ; and I am also ready to say--and in that I adopt the language used in another house—" Let none of it be applied to Catholic purposes." ((heers.) Away then with the bugbear of the intended triumph to the Catholic Church. ( Hear, hear.) I am too sincere a Catholic not to wish to see that Church continue disconnected with the State. We are approach ing the time, and I hope it will soon arrive, when no Christian will be called on to contribute towards the sup port of a Church in the doctrines of which he does not be lieve ; and let those who put the least faith in my political principles give me credit for sincerity in wishing that day to arrive. I call on you to take this step, in order that Ireland may be assimilated to England. But have you a church consonant with the wishes of the people in Eng land ? The dissenters complain that they are made to pay for its support, and that they put no faith in the bishops or the thirty-nine articles ; but, alter all, it must be admitted that the established church of England is the church of the people. (Cheers.) In Scotland you find no thirty nine articles—no bishops. The thirty-nine articles are cut down to I do not know what number ; but do you in ScOtLena, „insist on the people supporting the episcopal church?'' You do not—and why ? You tried for fifty years to force them to support it, but the Scotch, with be exception of a few of the nobility, who preferred per- sonal grandeur to the good of their cotintryy were true to themselves. The gentry and the . peeple fought shoulder to shoulder, and the consegnence Was, that you conceded to the Scotch people 'the etereise of their own religion. Yoe tent church to Ireland, too, and the people were stupid enough not to take it (Hear, and a laugh); but still you lodged a party of churchmen thtre, and you are deter mined they shall at least haVe all the emoluments they can draw from the people. (Hear.) Why do I state this ? I state it to show that you do not treat Ireland as you.treated Sootland, when you took away the clergy that they did not want there. You should noe taice the opportunity of apportioning the surpliYl hinds of that church to pur poses of public wilily and charity. You have hospitals, dispensaries, houses for the sick and for the poor, the ;expeYilels Of which you can, in this manner, meet without taking anything from the public funds. Thus, the sick, the maimed, the insane, have claims upon the public (Hear, hear), and to their comfort and maintenance the surplus might well be applied. Public utility also includes public education—and no work of public utility ranks higher than the purposes of public education. (Hear, hear.) There are, therefore, abundant sources of public utility and charity to which that surplus fund could be properly applied. Tell the people of Ireland, then, that at length you are to take one step in their behalf—show them that the idol of Juggernaut is not again to be drawn through the valleys and meadows of their island. Why have you lost the late Secretary for the Colonies? Why is he not still upon those benches? It is not for nothing. You would be insane if you parted with his services for no grounds whatever. (Hear; hear.) You had grounds, and they were not light. You parted with him because he adhered to his principles. (Cheers.) Have you thrown him aside because he adhered to his principles—and have you congregated together because you have no prin ciples of your own ? (Cheers.) Shall I hear it said to morrow that he was no longer fit to be in the same go vernment with you, because he had principles and you had none ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) That supposition is something so monstrous, that I cannot allow myself to entertain the supposition. Merely show how the condact of the right hon. ,member for North Lancashire was such as to call on you to cast him from among you. He would be unworthy Of his noble race if he did not adhere to his principles, and have you got rid of him for nothing ? I cannot think so ; and I hope you will show by your vote, that you cannot be accused to-morrow of being neither fish, flesh, nor good red herring. (Hear, hear, and a laugh. ) Oh, no ; you are English gentle men. I ask, then, is there any shrinking among you from the declaration of your principles ? Did the name of coward ever brand any one of you ? No • morally and politically you are bound to stand high, andlet me not be told to-morrow that you are mere miserable creatures, crawling and crouching down for the sake of place and office, and yet flying from the declaration of the principles on which you hold your offices. ( Hear, hear.) And why not declare that principle, when• the declaration of it would bring peace ? (Hear, hear.) Why hesitate to proclaim it, when the very moment it appears that you have no prin ciple many will speculate on coming in under the wings of the right hon. gentleman, and who would uphold spiritual supremacy ? Bigotry in Ireland was an exotic, nurtured in the hot-bed of English impotence and tyranny, which would have withered long ago, and flowers of peace would have flourished, were Ireland left to herself. But perhaps you are alarmed for something in England. Perhaps you fear that there is some assembly where it may be inconve nient to be just to Ireland. ( Hear, hear.) I know that personal valour prevails in that place, but there is also a comfortable quantity of political expediency. They are bold when you waver—they are courageous when you vacillate. (Hear, hear.) But I call on you to declare for God and the people, and to fear nothing. The time has arrived when you should urge every good man to press forward in the cause of justice, heedless of the cawing of rooks (A laugh), or the screech of owls, or even the petitions from Holy Island. Oh, •for the ghost of poor St. Cuthbert ! He would cut down every thing that impaired his rights—he would not carry reform further than would just suffice to stifle clamour ; but the people of England speak not as monk either of the last or of the present century, and the voice of those croakers is but as a penny whistle to the united vdice of the people, proclaiming liberalism, equally remote from revolution and the darksoine days of Toryism. (Hear.) They' will wit ness your triumph, and loin in proclaiming your fame, .aid the friends of Ireland will at last see the days of do mination cease, a new day dawning, and justice begun. (Cheering.) The hon. gentleman concluded by moving " That it should be an instruction to the committee in like manner to provide for such appropriation of the funds to be raised in lieu of tithes, as, after having due regard to vested interests, and to the providing suitably for the spiritual wants of the Protestants of Ireland of the established church, should dedicate the surplus to purposes of public utility and charity." (Cheers.) Mr. HUME seconded the motion, because it was in effect but giving force to the former promises of the house. He would say no more but that he hoped that, after the manifold promises made to Ireland upon this subject, they would not be disappointed. England felt as much inte rested in it as Ireland, and he therefore called on his Ma jesty's Ministers to come forward and state what their in tentions were. He called on the house, as the represen tatives of the people, to profit by the experience of their predecessors, and not reject this motion, which he believed tote the olive branch of peace. The object of church property was to do good, and promote peace ; but at present it had a contrary effect. He called on the Government then to act like men, and to declare what they would do, and he was sure it would find itself backed by the voices of a united people ; and he entreated of them to remember that their characters would be good or ill with the country according to their conduct that night. (Hear, hear. ) Lord AIORPETH said that when a question was forced upon public attention—when the interests and feelings and passions of the people intermingled in its discussion, then he was sure that the only way for a government to act was to do what was right (Hear, hear) ; to stand up for no abuse, while it gave way upon no just prin ciple ; and in order that it might resist at last an indiscriminate attack , _ not to oppose a justly called for reform. Now, such he thought was the state of the case with respect to the church. He might have felt like others, if the question had remained dormant, no wish to direct the attention of Parliament to the pro priety of effecting an alteration in any portion of the re venues of the church ; but when the question had arisen, when it had grown into great importance, when, in fact, it pervaded every corner of the country, he could not dis guise from himself that, with respect to the branch of the church of England and Ireland that existed in Ireland, there was one circumstance of great importance to be taken into consideration in reference to the question of maintaining a religious establishment at the expense of the state—namely, its coincidence with the opinions and feel ings of the people, and that was a circumstance which, as regarded the Established Church in Ireland, was wanting. ( Hear.) It would be idle and puerile to stand upon the argument that the two countries were one, and that the two establishments should be considered as one. If such an argument as that was to be relied upon, it would in his opinion form a very plausible objection to the union having been made, and would supply a plausible reason for its repeal. (Hear.) He was hound to admit the right of Parliament to interfere with and to regulate the distri bution of the ecclesiastical revenues of the Irish church establishment, and if it saw good grounds for it, to extend those revenues beyond the pale of that establishment, and to other than purely ecclesiastical purposes. ( Hear.) But when he used the word " right," he could not deny that it was a strictly legal right, and he would not allow any just or moral right on the part of Parliament to devote those 'revenues to purposes which could not be properly con strued as analogous to those for which they had been originally destined. Now the phrase " public utility," in the lion. gentleman's motion, might mean anything or everything. If there was to be a distribution of any sur plus arising out of the revenues of the Protestant church, it should be spent for the moral, spiritual, and christian in struction and edification of the country. As he had voted against the motion of the hon. member for St. Alban's, he should also vote against the motion of the hon. and learned member in its present form . With all his respect fo•-• the talents of his right hon. friend the late Secretary for the Colonies, he could not see the force of the argu ments contained in his late speech on this subject. Accord ing to his right hon. friend's reasoning, they should keep up the present ecclesiastical staff in Ireland, even if there was not a single Protestant, with a view to the future pos sible conversion of the dissenters in 'that country. With respect to the church of England, he 'felt assured that with the purity of its doctrines, with the consolations it diffused, with the happiness and blessings parochially dis pensed by it, it might defy all the attacks of its enemies, and even survive the defence of some of its friends. ( Hear; hear.) The noble lord, after ridiculing the idea that the late exhibition at Oxford could have possibly the slightest political influence on the public mind upon this or any other question (and he must remark that the support of Oxford to any party would appear from our history to be singularly unfortunate—of that Oxford which had endea voured to sustain the waning fortunes of Charles, and which had backed as long as it could the struggling hopes of Jacobinism) (Hear, hear) proceeded to express his gratification at the step which government had taken in issuing a commission to inquire into the state of the Irish church. Lord ALTHORP had waited until some hon. members should have delivered their opinions to the house, before he presented himself to its attention, with a view to hear whatever arguments might be urged in support of the pro position of the hon. and learned member for Dublin. He confessed, however, that he had not heard an argument at all showing the necessity of the adoption of 'the resolu tion now under consideration. The hon. and learned gen tleman had charged his Majesty's government with not having expressed an opinion . or, in other words, he com plained that his Majesty's Ministers had not declared their principles upon the subject of church property ; but, at the same time that the hon. and learned gentleman made this complaint ? he afforded proof—proof incontestible— that the government had already fully declared the princi ples on which they meant to act. Because, .when the hon. and learned gentleman inquired why the present ministry had separated from the right hon. gentleman who had lately presided over the Colonial Department, he bad himself stated that the separation Would hot have taken place, un less there existed a serious and most decided difference of 'opinion. ( Hear.) He (Lord A.) might content himself with this proof, because, as the hon. and learned gentle men had stated, it would have been the conduct of insane 'men to separate from such talents as were pessested by his (Lord Althorp's) noble and right hot, friends, unless there had been such a decided difference of principle. (Hear. ) 'pis, ho:vever, was not all ;- for the government had de ciared what their opinions and feelings were; they had declared that they considered that the Parliament of this country did possess the right to appropriate to other than purely Church purposes, such portions of the revenues of .the Church in Ireland as might be more than was re quired for the benefit and advantage of the Protestant population of that country. (Hear, hear.) The Govern ment had not only declared this, but had also declared, and had taken means to carry that declaration intdeffect, that as soon as it was proved and shown, not what was the degree of revenue possessed by the Church of Ireland, but what might be more than sufficient for its purposes, that then it was not only the right but the duty of the Le gislature to consider whether there might not be made a more beneficial appropriation. (Hear.) The Govern ment had never stated, nor intended to state, that it was contemplated to appropriate any part of the church revenues to the purposes of the Roman Catholic religion. On the contrary, they thought that such a mode of appropriation, so far from being advantageous, would be most detrimen tal, both as affected the feelings of the Protestant popula tion of the empire and the feelings of the Roman Catholics themselves. ( Hear, hear, from several Irish members.) Most undoubtedly the Government did think, and he (Lord Althorp) was prepared to say, looking at the question as a member himself of the Protestant Church, that it would be most advantageous to the Protestant religion in both parts of the empire not to continue in Ireland that state of thingsilwhich was consequent upon the present distribution of Church property in Ireland. It was im possible for any man, who looked with reasonable feel ings upon the present system of distribution, not to say that so large an appropriation of Church pro perty for the ministry to the wants of so comparatively few, was calculated to diminish instead of increase the number of Protestants in that part of the realm, because it was manifest that dissatisfaction among the other sects was inevitable. (Hear.) With respect to the right of in terference, he could not conceive on what grounds hon. gentlemen who were oppOsed to the Government on this occasion, but who had conceded the right of Parliament to deprive one corporation of a portion of its property to confer it upon another, should urge that the legislature had no right to apply the church revenues - to other purposes— he meant moral and religious purposes. He could not see how that right was denied, when in fact it was remem bered that when the church was spoken of, it was not con fined to the clerical portion only ; the church was under stood to imply not merely the clerical part, but the whole body of the professors of the Protestant church. ( Hear, hear.) The property belonging to that body had been applied to. the payment of the ministers of religion, but if those ministers could be provided for in a manner suffi cient for the wants of the Protestant population of /re and, and a surplus remained, he contended that the re mainder might with great advantage to the church itself be applied in another way. With these views he felt ser fectly ready to state distinctly his opinions, nor did he wish in any degree to shrink from that expression. He hoped that after what he had stated he should not be thought to be shrinking from the question if he did not accede to the adoption of the resolution proposed by the hon. and learned member for Dublin. (Hear, hear.) From the adoption of this resolution he (Lord Althorp) could not see any advantage to be gained; it was merely a repetition of the motion already disposed of which had been brought forward by his hon. friend the member for St. Alban's, and for the same reasons that he had opposed it then, he must now object to its adoption. It was true that the hon. and learned gentleman had argued very ably, eloquently, and conclusively, for the right of the Legislature to interfere in the matter of appropriation, but the hon. and learned gentleman had failed to advance any argument in favour of the adoption of his motion at the present time. The hon. and learned gentleman bad objected to the Tithe Bill unless the Government gave some declaration as to the intention with respect to future appropriation. The issuing of the commission of inquiry was, he (Lord Althorp) contended, a clear proof of the intentions of the Government ; for it would have been most absurd in them to have issued it, if they did not mean to act upon the report which would follow from the in quiry thus set on foot. (Hear, hear.) That step alone went much further than the mere adoption of the abstract proposition now under consideration ; it was an actual step towards the object to which the resolution proposed by the hon. and learned gentleman would pledge the house. Under such circumstances its adoption was un necessary, and being unnecessary would be most disad vantageous. (Hear.) On these grounds, and not differ ing from the hon. and learned gentleman opposite as to the right of Parliament to apply itself to the questi9 of appropriation, but thinking such a course was necessary for the future peace of Ireland and for the benefit of the Protestants of that country, he certainly was not prepared, and he hoped that the house was not prepared, to adopt the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman. (Hear, hear.) Colonel DAVIES expressed his approbation of the can dour which had characterized the statement just delivered by the noble lord opposite; but he was anxious that the house should compare that statement with the observations which had fallen from a noble marquis and another noble lord at the head of the government in another place. The noble marquis to whom he alluded had said, in speaking of a surplus, " that he only contemplated its appropriation to pious andcharitable purposes connected with the established church." Again, said the noble and learned lord, that " supposing there was a surplus, it should first of all, if not exclusively, be applied to the purposes of moral and reli gious education on the principles of the established church." He had also added, " that the source from which the funds came naturally indicated the objects to which it should be applied." Here, then, was a complete variance amongst the government, and he must ask, would the last declara tion of opinion to which he had alluded satisfy the people of Ireland—would they acquiesce in the continued appli cation of the funds to which they all contributed to the support of an institution from which the majority derived no benefit ? (Hear, hear.) Every clause of the present bill secured with an iron grasp the rights of the church, and' would leave the clergy of Ireland as completely in the pesscssion of their property as if the appropriation (or he should rather call it) the misappropriation clause had passed. The effect, too, of the Church Temporalities Bill would be to produce the same result; the very first clause sufficiently indicated its character, and with these declarations and measures before him, he could not think the professions of the government afforded any security to the house. So long ago as 1830 the noble lord opposite had promised to remove abuses which still remained una bated, and yet the legislature and the people of Ireland were now to be told that they must wait until the report of the commissioners of inquiry was received, while at the same time it was sought by this bill to perpetuate existing evils, by giving to the clergy of Ireland enormous powers, and without which they would be unable to collect their tithes. The time was come to tell noble lords in another place, that if they had any regard to the clergy, and if they did not wish to see that body re- . duced to a state of misery and destitution, they must pass the bill as it was sent to them from this house, for that this house would not agree to it in any other shape. But if the house should agree to the bill as at present framed, securing, as its provisions did, the property of the church, the Lords would treat with contempt any effort to effect the objects sought by the people of Ireland. He repeated, therefore, that now was the time or never, and that the opportunity ought now to be embraced, for it would never . occur again. It became the duty of the house to pass' some resolution to show that it would not be trifled with, and for these reasons he.should support the motion of the hon. and learned member for Dublin. Mr. F. O'CONNOR concurred with the hon. and gallant member who had just sat down in thinking that the present was the fitting time for the house to take some step. He confessed that it appeared to him that the views held by the noble lord the Prime Minister of England in another, and the right hon. baronet, the member for Tamworth, in this house, perfectly coincided, and there fore it was due to hon. gentlemen on both sides of the house that his Majesty's Ministers should speak out on the present occasion. The right hon. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland had manifested great reserve throughout the discussions on the present measure. Although he did not exactly agree with the noble lord opposite (Lord Morpeth), who had said nothing applicable to the question, yet if the proposition of the hon. and learned member for Dublin had been brought forward as a substantive motion, he should have been inclined to hive gone with the noble lord in its support ; but he ( Mr. F. O'Connor) could not for a moment forget the principles on which he held his seat in that house, nor could he obliterate from his memory that the people of Ireland looked for the total and entire abolition of tithes. Less than this would not give satisfac tion to the people of Ireland, and though he entertained the highest respect for the talents and good feeling of the hon. and learned member, yet he could not support his proposition, because he (Mr. O'Connor) would go still further than the terms expressed in the resolution. He declared as his opinion, that the commission would com mence in blood, progress in perjury, and terminate in de lusion. (Hear, hear.) The present measure effected merely a change in the name of an odious tax, and such legislation would not be productive of satisfaction to the people of Ireland, nor would the impost, though its defini tion might be altered, be made more palatable to that por tion of his Majesty's subjects. He had attended numerous tithe meetings in Ireland, and lie could state that the strongest resolutions, urging the injustice of tithes, were generally proposed and seconded by Protestants. By op posing the resolution propounded by the hon. and learned member for Dublin, he was aware that he stood upon ten der grounds—but as he sought not popularity, but merely regarded principle, he should persist in his course, with a perfect willingness to retire to some other occupation, or to seek a constituency more radical than that he repre sented, which, he believed, it would be difficult for him to find. If the right honourable gentlenian opposite (Mr. Littleton) persisted in the measure as it was at present framed, he would indeed require a renewal of the Ito whi c h measures f orme d on t h e extreme pr i nc i p l es o f b ee a u se th e y cou ld no t b r i ng it to any pra c ti ca l resu lt. . Coercion Bill, but as he had already told the right hon. both sides *mild soon reduce it (Hear, hear) scenes which (" Hear," and . ~ Oh !") H e was ready t o cons id er of the gentleman that he was unfit to govern Ireland, he would as yet had been happily unknown. Before he sat down he aPPropriation" ofehe surplus as soon as Parliament had de repeat his hope that the Hot hon. gentleman would stop would make but one more observation. 'lf the Govern- termined on the principle ; but it was net &title to do it short in his mad career. It might be said that the right ment had been deprived of the great and powerful talents now, and the incisive of the surplus must be the wants hon. g en tl eman had been obliged to follow in the steps of of his right hon. friends—deprived of them on the very and necessities of the Protestant Church of Ireland, for he the late Secretary for the Colonies ; but if so, he (Mr. F. I grounds of the question before the house—there might, would not consent to apply the surplus . otherwise than for O'Conn or ) hoped and trusted that in the changes now ,he thought, be found in that very fact a sufficient pledge the religious instruction of the Protestant population. Did taking pl ace , the r ight h on . gen tl eman wou ld, lik e hi s p r e- l o f an honest intent and purpose to carry forward a salu- the hon. 'gentleman, in sincerity, think that he could de decessor, find a higher office in which he might take re- i t a ry reformation in the Irish church. He. asked on these . fend the resent position of th e P ro t es t an t Chu r ch in Ire fuge. (L a ughter. ) He himself lived- in a district which grounds for the confidence of the house—with it Ministers land ?., 1 ray he prepared to stand by it in its present con was called " Parson's Paradise," from the circumstance o f m i g ht d o much—without it, nothing; b ut if it vvere re- dition ? 'NV ould the h u e. g e n tl eman asser t th a t, as cons the gr ea t n u mber of livings by which it was surrounded fused, their sole resort would be, a resort which he should pared with the Church of England, it was not endowed (A la ug h), an d he knew them to have sold their tithes for I most certainly deprecate, an appeal to the people to de. with wealth in excess? If the hon. gentlema n admitt e d 7s. to 10s. to the tithe proctors, after refusing 15s. from tide whether moderate or violent measures were to per- that point, haw could he, as a ma n of common sense, con the tith e p a ye rs on the terms of the full amount being en- 1 vade the councils of the empire. (Load and continued tend that they ought to make a more expen s ive provi s io n forced. He (Mr. F. O'Connor) never would pay tithes in 1 cheering. ) , for the Church of Ireland,' which embraced on ly a sma ll any shape or form (Much laughter) ; nor advise any of his IMr. LEFROY acknowledged that an explicit declare- portion of the population within its pale, than th e y ma d e constituents to do so. 1 tion at least had now been made by'his ; Majesty's mini- for the Church of England, which included nearly the M r . SHEIL observed that it struck him with surprise i sters • but he wished to inform the house with what feel- whole of the population of this country ? How wer e they that after the speech of the. hon. and, gallant member for i i ng t i m . peop i e o f I re l an d looked • upon this newly-issued to deal with the surplus ? Would the hon. gentleman Wor ces te r , one point of the question had . not called forth t commission. They thought that the sole question was, tell him th a t it did not require the interposition of par. some explanation from his Majesty's Ministers, particularly I whether the Protestant o r the Catholic reli g ion should be 'lament ? The Government had been asked—" wFly, as it w as a point to which much importance was attache 1 established by the state. A more mischievous engine for then, do y ou not pa s s this resolution ?" (Hear, hear. ) He thought the opinion of any one of his Majesty's Minis- I the creation of dissension could not be invented. Why His answer was—because he had no evidence whereon ters, openly and candidly declared, would carry much i should ministers act ite this manner? Why did they not to pass it as a parliamentary resolution, and he could not weight with it, and he thought it but fair, for the satisfac- I boldly state that they intended to reinstate the Catholic agree to it as an hypothetical case. If he were to pro tion of the house and the, public, that it should be made religion? He would remind the house, however, that it teed on his own belief, and indeed on his own knowledge known how far unanimity on this point subsisted among the was a Catholic Parliament of Ireland which adopted the ,of Ireland, he should say that there was an excess of members of the Cabinet, or what shades of dissent were to be reformed religion. Ireland, at the period of the union, wealth belonging to the church of Ireland, and that it found among them. (Hear, hear.) A noble lord in another surrendered its legislature upon the'stipulation that the was for her interest that that excess should be diminished ; place—an expression quite parliamentary, if not always . religion of the country should be continued. There was but was his knowled ge or hi s b e li e f sufficient groun d for quite intelligible—was reported to have expressed him- no more reason why a majority of the people of Ireland, a solemn decision of parliament? One gentleman had self favourable to the application of the surplus of the considering Ireland as a part of the empire, should be told them that there were 2,000,000 of Protestants in church property solely to the purposes of the Protestant allowed to alienate the revenues of the church in that Ireland ; another had said there was only half that num- . Ch urc h. Had this been said, or had it not? (Hear, country, than that a majority of any religious sect in any , ber. Was it not material to b o th th a t th e y s h ou ld k no w hear.) Why did not ministers come forward and boldly county or district of England should be permitted to precisely how the fact stood? Whatever view the house declare their sentiments, instead of referring to the ex- alienate the revenues of the church in that district or might hereafter take of this question should be founded on pression of their opinions? They had granted a Me' county. The true question, he contended, for the consi- 1 facts. The commission which been issued was to obtain nession ; but he would ask them, would Ireland be satis- deration of the house was this—were the principles of the i thote facts, and upon those facts, when o bt a i ne d, th e Go fled with the political results of that commission ? (Cheers reformation to be set aside ? These principles were as yet 1 vernment would be found not slow to a c t. Th e r i g ht from the members of the Irish Opposition.) The only untouched—they had not met the fate of the principles of hon. gentleman concluded by stating he completely agr e e d difference between the conduct of the noble lord on the the revolution, and as long as they remained in force, and in the declaration of faith which had heed inside' tint ' occasion of moving the previous question as an amendment Ireland a part of the British empire. so long must the evening by his noble friend, and that he should be reed.;r to the motion of the hon. member for St. Alban's, and on Protestant religion continue to be the religion of that at all tames to act upon it. (Cheers. ) the present, was this—that he had then opposed an im- country. If at any time it should happen that different Sir R. PEEL found it quite impossible to resist the ap- -e- mediate decision on the question of appropriation on the religions were established in the countries, the inevitable peal just made to the house byehis right hon. friend, and ground of granting a commission of i n qui r y, and n ow on result would be the dismemberment of the empire, and he would therefore tell him what were the objections the score of having issued the comm i ss i on . N ow , he the destruction of monarchy in Ireland. There was one which he felt against the commission which had just been would put the question on this single point—was this other topic to which he was anxious to advert—the amount I issued. ( Hear, hear.) He objected to the issuing of this commission sufficient ? (Hear, hear. ) One remarkable of the revenue of the church of Ireland. • He had before commission, because up to this hour, judging from the distinction between this and other commissions was evi- declared, and he now repeated, that the hon. member for speeches of his Majesty's ministers, the motives assigned dent at the first glance—namely, that some time was fixed St. Alban's had greatly overstated the amount of those for it were indefensible. (Loud cries of hear.) He oh for the exercise of the duties which the persons appointed revenues. He had, in addition to the documentary evi- jetted to the issuing of this commission because, if ever to act under the commission were to perform ; but here deuce he before quoted, the authority of a return since there was a time when the King's Government should no time was limited. He need only cite the examples of laid upon the table of the house, and he could most posi- have attempted to settle the unsettled opinions of men upon the education commission and the corporation commission tively sa y, th a t th e wh o l e revenues of the church of Ire- questions of property, this was the time. He objected to to prove this position. Then, _again, how many corn- land for remunerating the bishops and clergy for the du- the issuing of this commission, because all the information missioners were appointed? Nominally there were - 14, ties they performed, ded uc ti ng the sums abstracted by the which was necessary to enable the executive Government but 'three of them were ministers of the Crown, and present bill, would not exceed 534,0001. In this calcula- to form an opinion on the general principles of the measure a fourth resided, he was told, constantly in London,. thus tion were included '277 benefices under the patronage of which they evidently contemplated was already before it. there were in reality only 10 ; these were to be divided laymen, and these he had a l right to deduct fr ao o l; m p ja t e h retc et t o h. t a al t a ( l H re e . ar dy , I c t o ea n r y . u ) lset li t t e ? o i b t j s e c c e t i e i d tre to b t y h the animosity issuing a f . d this d discord c o c : d ra t - 0 calculatedand t o i in aggravate a l l w t h h iacth din perambulated, was.. into pairs, and every parish in Ireland was to be visited number of Irish livings, which, at th , R. u v s eretse taken, h uleh embitter mission, becauseanimosity, i ttms by . the one or the other of these pairs of -commis- reduce the gr t es e s sum by made as amount of 0 w put forth, (Loud cries of hear.) " This commission, indeed !" said night was substantially correct, cord by the nature of the inquiry hcl •t. h • d wiii aut. arize.., p s l e o r n a e m r s b . boo there to were each pair,2,s t Iso parishes commissioners n to d eachto be the revenuessta statement ah previous parish ; on this point the terms of the proclamation were though it appea ula N te o d w , included the r • ' • from the hon. revenues arising right baronet; " you separate yourselves from explicit, and they were on the spot, that was the phrase, and which he observed, as well as from tithes. He was much men whom you admit to be of the highest character, on to collect the information for which .they weee sent out. the glebe-lands re h d ad les m s ad th e an In the first place, they had to ascertain the relative pro- astonished at the conduct of the right hon. Secretary for the great principle, as you say, of thi s commission. The portions of the Protestant, Presbyterian, and Catholic po- Ireland, with respect to the appropriation clause ; it was principle on which they have rather separated themselves pua 1 tion in each parish; next, the average 'attendance at in direct variance with the pledge he had given, that the from you is, that they differ from you as to the mora l right church, of each class, for the last fire years ; then, if there question sho uld be left unprejudiced. of Parliament to appropriate the property of the church. for was a union of parishes, the average proportions of each The gallery was then cleared adivision, but none took You have, however, consented to that separation,andunder in these respects. The next thing was, where there was place. On our return we found such circumstances,with all the elements of confusion which such an union, for them to ascertain the distance b e tween Mr. FINCH on his legs. The hon. member addressed are now abroad, itis too much to ask you what are the prin the parishes eto be sure, this was a piece of information the house amidst much noise and confusio n . H e was u n - ciples on which you are determined to act—what is the not very hard to come by i but, as if what he had re- d'rstood t o b e earnes tly opposed to the resolution. He course which your Government has resolved to follow? . counted was not enough, as if government thought the sad that if it were not for the mischievous exertions of the You objected to the mo tio n o f th e h on . member for St. - • - a n d agitators, who • labours of the commissioners were not sufficiently Hercu- Roman Catholic priests lean, they had to inquire into the, state of education in t he people pay their tithes, there w ould be no nee d for this and you now object to the motion of the hon. and teaseled.— .. each parish, to learn what books were employed for this till. member for Dublin,_ which contains no fact ; but Weds purpose, and to ascertain average attendance of eat h Me. FREN CH said that a sacrifice ou g ht to be made the principle that Parbamentbas a right to approptiald tit sect in the school. But even this w as no t enou gh; by l an dl or d s i n I re l an d, but the important alterations made purposes of public utility the revenues of the church .of they were to report generally—he hoped the house would in th e b i ll h a d d one awa y with some of its best provisions. I eland. You say that your principle is in your commis observe the comprehensiveness of the word— on th e vela- On t h e o th er h an d, a considerable allowance ought to be si..n. I look at your commission and find it headed tive s ituation of Protestants, Catholics, Presbyterians, mad 3 for landlords, who had lost some of their advantages what? A cominissiou for inquiring into the p ro priety of Baptists, all and any . denominations whatsoever, in re- by the omission of an important clause. an appropriation of the revenue of the church of Ireland . to spect to all these particulars. (Loud c h eers .) A n d all lee r . SHAW f e lt that the hon. and learned gentleman se.ular purposes? No, but a commission for inquiring re this was to be done by ten men. (Reiterated cheering.) (M r . O'Connell)' and . the Treasury bench were quite specting the state of religious and other instruction now He (Mr. Sheil) might be disposed to confide i n govern- agreed i n se ntiment upon this subject (Hear), although ex sting in Ireland. (Cheers and loud laughter.) The rnent, but he did not trust in their stability,—he did no t the G overnmen t had not the manliness to avow it. The noble lord says he has made up his mind that the church confide in their permanence ; their determinations might bill now before the house was quite different from the one of Ireland is a grievance, and my right hon. friend Billie be nullified by a change of administration, but a resolution of which the house had "voted for the second reading. ' He site, the Secretary for the C o l oni es, who has more know of the House of Commons was not so mutable. But at (Mr. Shaw) believed that the measure in question had ledge of Ireland than all the' rest of his colleagues put .. any rate we ought to knOw what we were doing. Let us, been done for no other purpose but to gain time (Hear, together, says that he too h as notions upon the subject, . continued the hon. and learned gentleman, have determined hear) • because, if the Government acted on the senti- but that this is not the time to explain them. ( Heat men. (Cheers.) Either we must return to the reign of ment ;hey appeared to entertain, they concurred with the and a laugh.) My right hon. friend is full of informs-, the conservatives, or we must have bold and consistent ad- hon. and learned gentleman, and he saw no reason why tion, he is traught with practical knowledge of Inland. vocates of necessary changes. It was absolutely necessary they should not support him. He charged his Majesty's and he has made up his mind as to the principle on which , to pursue a decided policy, and not have recourse to a Government with endeavouring to evade and shuffle from he will act ; but instead of telling us what that princip le . paltry system of shifts and expedients. The hon. and this question. (Hear, hear.) He would not reply to the is, what is the course which he thinks proper to pursue l learned gentleman proceeded to observe, that it was absurd speech of the hon. and learned gentleman, who had pur- -why truly he selects our trusty and well-beloved Thom to suppose that the Coercion Bill would effect the results sued an open and manly course.', He had only one or two mas 'Doyley, sergeant at law ( A loud laugh) ; The which Ministers proposed to themselves by its adoption. observations to make jointly upon the hon. and learned mas Lister, John Wrottesley, George Barrett Leonard, Such measures had invariably failed. They might re-act gentleman and his Majesty's Government, for they might Edward Carleton Tuffnell, and several other learned the scenes which ought to have struck them with dismay ; be jointly answered. lie -should quote one passage from gentlemen, to make certain inquiries which must be all the atrocities which had been committed might be again the speech of an individual high in the Irish Government, completed on the spot before they can determine on let loose upon the land, but they should remember that the Irish Lord Chancellor, on the occasion of a mo- the principle, and which cannot be completed if they having made those dreadful experiments, and found them tion of the honourable member for Middlesex, in 1925, are properly conducted in less 'than four or fiveyears.; a failure, if they persisted in this reckless pertinacity of not quite so strong as the present, . though there All Ireland is to be embraced in these inquiriece..The: purpose, they would have to pass before God and their was ve ry little difference . between the resolutions. property with which the church is endowed is to be sub.- couetry the ordeal of a most terrible and fearful judg- (Hear, hear.) The motion of the honourable member mitted to their investigation, and this too is to take place ment. (Loud cheers.) for Middlesex was, " That it is eipedient to inquire who- under the auspices of a set of English gentlemen, who be' Mr. ELLICE could not help expressing his astonish- ther the present church establishment - of Ireland be not cause they are 'unacquainted with Ireland are sent to meg& ment at the tone which the hon. and learned gentleman more than commensurate to the services to be performed, minute inquiries on the spot, into the state of every parish, had employed. Among the observations which he had both as regards the number of persons employed and the in the country, and are thus to go on a tour for statiseiest addressed to the house he had remarked, that the Go- incomes they receive." And what did Lord Plunket say? information. Now, with all deference, I beg to inform ' vernment had lost much of its weight and efficiency. by He opposed the resolution, and on the ground that the the house, that all the information of - Whi c h you appear at the defection of the right hon. gentlemen who sat below measure would apply to England as well as Ireland. He present to be in want you have'already— a ll but this 'to him (Mr. Ellice). said, " The hon. member evidently thought that Parlia- report such other circumstances connected with the moral Mr. SHEIL—I beg pardon, but I do not remember ment was at liberty to deal with the property of the and political relations of the church establishment and the having said so. church, exactly in the same way as if it were a tax on any religious institutions of other denominations dissenting Mr. ELLICE—Then it was the hon. and learned other property of the state." This Lord Plunket objected from the Established Church, a s ma y bring clearly into member for Dublin. But he would. merely ask for what to, yet that was the very object of his Majesty's, Govern- view their bearings on the general condition of the people was that loss sustained ? (Hear, hear.) For what was ment, and Lord Plunket was now in office. " That the of that part of our United Kingdom called Ireland.' There that change forced upon the Government? That the Go- property of the church might not be interfered with, as well is a variety of other minute facts into which you order vernment might be able to act on one principle. (Loud as the _property of the state, in a case of public necessity, these gentlemen 'to inquire ; but to send ten learned gen cheers.) He scarcely knew how to interpret that cheer, he would not assert ; but be it o bserved, that upon the tlemen to report on the moral and political relations of the • considering the quarter frOin which it came, but he as- same principle, the private property of every man in the church and the dissenters fro m it in Ireland, is a species sured the house that if he thought there was the least dif- kingdom was equally liable. But he would maintain that of commission which I never expected to find proceed from ference in opinion between the members of his Majesty's the property of the church was as sacred as any other." any government. The details into w hich those g entlemen Government as to the right application of the surplus re- Further, he said, "To take away the ancient rights of one are instructed to inquire may be tedious ; but bear "t t " venues of the church of Ireland, and if he had thought that class of persons to give them to another could not be termed .me while Hell you the nature of the i n f or mation whi ch there would be the slightest hesitation in directing that anything else but spoliation." He (Mr. S.) could not sit these gentlemen are commissioned to obt a i n . The core surplus revenue to ends not dissimilar to the purposes for down without again simply calling the attention of the house mission is instituted for three purp oses . Of these, the which they were designed, he should not have joined the to the only and Administration. in question, the consistencyor inconsistency first is to make full inquiry into the state of religious "e Administration. (Loud and repeated cheers.) He agreed of his Majesty's Government. The hon. and learned gen- other instruction now existing in I re l an d. Now, that with the hon. and learned gentleman that the miseries and tleman had a right to call on the Government to avow his again branches out into three distinct parts ; first, th e oppressions brought upon Irelandby the existence of the esta- principle. The hon. and learned gentleman, in a speech to commissioners are to ascertain o n th e s p o t the population blished Church (Cheers) were, such as were a disgrace to the delegates of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, had told of each •parish and the proportion existing between the those wh o h a d p erm itt e d th e ir continuance, and he was them the people should be numbered, that an inquiry should members of the Established Church and all persons dissent not afraid to say thus much. He. was not afraid to say be made into the amount of church property, the value ing from it; secondly, they are to ascertain the state of each that he desired to correct the anomalies, to remove the of glebe lands, and into the circumstances of the clergy of pansh with respect to the means of e ducation; and, thirdly, abuses of that church, as the best means of giVing it secu- the Established Church, and of the Presbyterian Church they are to ascertain what are the practical revenues t f . t h e rity ; and if h e man if es t e d hi s d e termination to apply, aft er also. ( Hear.) He (Mr. Shaw) believed that the cum- church. Are not these, I ask , th e three points to whichen duly providing for the spiritual wants of the Protestant po- mission would do the greatest mischief ; .it would rake up the first instance the commissioners ar e directed to point I will undertake to prove to pulation, the residue of the church revenues for the benefit the embers of religious discord, and fin the flames of reli- their attention ? Now, on each . of these . three heads the de of the mass of the people, he thought he should have dune gious animo s ities, andall for no other purpose than to patch monstration that you hav e it is practically the greatest something to deserve the confidence of the house and of up a cabinet a little longer which, without one principle to fullest information, and that d t _ the country. (H ear , hear.) He was sure that his col- guide its course, a firmness to pursue any course , was delusion that ever wasy.lalmeiti t he country to send this • to I r eland (Hear.) First, with regard to leagues agreed with him in the ,views 'he entertained on launching on a troubled sea, where they would miserably commission 1 this subject, at least he did not' know that any of them perish. the population, on which shall not make more than a dissented from th em . He' did n o t k no w why the hon. an d Mr. S. RICE began' by observing, that imputations single o b serv ation. Before you proc ee d t o act upon t he of this • learned gentleman should expect a detailed exposition of more grave than had been uttered by the hon. member recommendation of commission, you are to get a report the several opinions of each of his Majesty's Ministers; he were never directed against any set of gentlemen, in pri- on the population the each parish, and on the proportion • at least had not concealed his own. ( Hear.) But to the rate or public. ( Hear.) What did the imputations exis i ting .t. between ie numbers of each sect contained questiOn before the house. The hon. and learned gentle- amount to ? In the first place, to a suggestion of by wittin in t There is to be an inquiry instituted in ever/ Ireland, man had said that the q u estion came before the house in a insincerity in respect to the declarations now made _ . y hi s _ p arish . _and the number of parishes in IreTSild is different shape to that in which it 'had lately come before Majesty's government, imputing to them that which, if 2 : ,50G By the terms of the commission, the commis- • its notice. N ow h e (M r . Elli c e) could not see any such true, was so grave that no individual a m ongst them could stoners are bound to ma ke their app earance i n eve ry parish, • distinction. The honourable and learned gentleman hold up his head in that house or mee t gentlemen in so- and to ascertain these points on the spot by the "best evi' had said that the commission had been granted in or- ciety. The hon. mem ber had i m puted to them that, for deuce they can procure. Now, we have the population enjoying der to delude the p e ople. (~ N o , no from Mr. t h e purpose .of continu i ng i n p l ace , and , a short- returns for every parish in Ireland •up tolB3l. Those re- Sheil.) 'Then if it h a d no t b een issued to delude, lived existence on a troubled sea—in d short, for mere party. turns were only p r i n t e d i n 1533 , an d ye t it' is now proposed why did not the honourable and learned gentleman purposes, they were willing to t c grace themselves in in 1834 that we should issue a new commission to procure g i v e credit to.the governmen t for en d eavour ing to satisfy the sight of the whole country, and former doitas urwisely fresh informati on as to t h e popu l a ti on o f e ach parish in t h e people? (He ar , h ear , hear.) Why did he not as it would be vainly. . a occasion, this come Ireland. Th e i n j unct i ons on t h e comm ission upon this admitted en all hands, give them time to mature their measures—why hurry them mission, 'it had been uonld lead point are distinct and positive. Now 1,200 persons were on with such fruitless rapidity? Th e G ove rnment was to a certain result, and yet the house was now told that it employed i n = ki n an d co ll ect i ng the populatioet,rett . t e rn scarc ely formed, his ri g ht h on . f r i en d (Mr. Stanley) had was a mere delusion and excuse to gain time and prolong I find each enumerator i n The county of Iv a te r" - '''' scarcely quitted the Tr easu ry ben c h, and the Government the Administration. What was the principle i nvo l ve d i n h ad 451. 10s. for his trouble. If, then, the enumerators wa s accused of not makine, sufficient haste forward in the the commission, and what was the principle involved in the were all -paid at the same rate, the cost of enumeration work of reform. He had the satisfaction of informing the resolution ? The principle involved inthe commission was, alone would be 54,0001. Yon -have the returns then, up hon. and learned g en tl eman th a t a - me eti n g of the commis- that there should be an inquiry. into the exact situation of to 1833, and yet you are now Preparing to send out an- , sioners had already taker, place, and the first thing to religious_ circumstances of the Protestant Church of Ire- other commission to ascertain the revenue of the church, land, 'on of the Catholic and Pro was,which they had been desired to_ effect their consideration and if,there was found to be an excess of wealth in and the respective proporti . the Protestant Church Up to this whether their numbers were sufficient for the ade- . of Ireland, that Parliament had a testant population in h eac parish. is hour yon quate discharge of the duties th e y we re to perform. right to deal with the surplus. In what way it was to deal have carefully avoided making that proportion p known. . (Hear, hear.) All they asked from the hon. and learned with it was a subj ec t f or cons id eration hereafter. It had (Loud cries of, ' H e ar, hear, hear. ) You 'have , gentleman was time ; let them have but a week or two to been objected, indeed, that that matter had been left un- been pressed heretofo re u p on this point. - You have been. o bt a in the information that was necessary, an d prepa re ra- defi ne d. A ccor di ng to the of the resolution, how- called upon to make a return of the num ber o f P r otesta n ts tional measures. If the hon._ and learned gentleman wished ever, the surplus might, be appropriated to the wants of the and Catholics respectively employed in the police. Th e for an expression of his (Mr. Ellice's) individual opinions, Roman Catholic de u have always ven u to thi • day, to rgy. With respect to the numbereng answer which yo ~ _ „ , p S all he could sa y was , t h at h e scarce ly knew in what he of the people, there was a paper on the table of the house, such applications was No." (Hear,- hear. ) You ssla differed from the sen ti men t s en t er tained on this subject by moved for last session, which was a return of the number "We have removed the Catholic disabilities—we 1 1,:, the hon. and learned g en tleman iii (self., (Loud cheers.) of parishes which had fewer than fifty resident Protestant rendered all classes of his Majesty's subjects equal 'd r aw H e would assure him that when he (Mr. Eice) expressed inhabita n t s , spec if y i ng t h e num b er o f f am ili es an d th e e y e a the law, and therefore we cannot consent t° lic ~ 1 an opinion, he would no t ex plain it away by qualification s , numb er of individuals in each family. The whole grin- any distinction between Protestants and uabm an °- in s to He did not dissent from the resolution of the hon. and learn- ciple of the commission was involved in that return, and (Hear, hear.) This commission, however, i s to e e ,sts „ . ed member for Dublin, exce pt perhapS as far as the employ- no gentleman had objected to it. l - lis noble friend had al- each parish, to ascertain, slot only the amount of tl ° r_ ho ment of the words " purposes of public utility" were con- ways stated that the inquiry was directed to ascertain the lation, but also the exact proportion between thoseo of the cern ed. Now, this was a . phrase which would extend to the aroma of the wealth of the P r otestant Church of Ireland assent to, and those who dissent from, the doctrines feon. building of bridges, repairing of roads, and maiay other pur- —to lay before Parliament the amount of the property of established church. Thus, as far as the population ish the poses of the same public nature, and he thought the hon. that Church, compared with the number of persons profess- cerned, with the exception of that distinction whic .._.. and learned member ought to have made samelittle expla- ing the Protestant religion ; and that, in the event of its commission is to make between the Protestant and Catn? nation of the very wide term he had used. He didnot • that the wealth of the Protestant Church was lie parte of it—an exception appearing which I consider- as a ve r b' have all the expect on this occasion to be favoured with the support, disproportioned to the numbers of members of the Protes- unfortunate ingredient in its inquiries—you have ) Then as., nor did he intend to claim the confidence, of those who tent Ch urc h, h e propose d t o submit to Parliament the ap- information which you require. (tlenr 'On which • r in had looked upon this measure as one to b e i mme di a t e ly plication of the surplus funds to other but kindred uses. to education. If there be any subjec t it is your _ is complete, carried into execution, but he did lookfor the confidence of ( Hear, hear.) If he were asked wh a t th ese us es might be formation respecting Ireland wilt commence by :reading yet an men who were anxiuus to aid the 'Government in their (Hear, hear), he would answer, they were not now called subject of education. I of 128 ' .• 3 .—‘ Inq uric a fficult task of allaying - the passions of parties, and upon to say. (Hear.) The house had, in the first place, extract ro- from the education report. 8 . . . t_ been instituted both by co ami viding for the public advantage. ( Che e r s f rom th e minis- merely to det e rmine the principle,. whether Parliament have, at different p en ce, b ' arlia missi tners. ._ terial benches.) In sayi ng t hi s h e meant n o o ff ence to might deal with the surplus. He Mr. Rice ) owned that tees of parliament, an d , y_ p ~ mentary com _,, the hon. and learned genfleman. He was not there to he had notions uPmi this point' "lc° ne nad often stated, appointed for the purpose of considering the state of due s" c _ • Ireland. ' Of these the most impertant are the tt 0 irritate or inflame,_ end the hon, and learned gentleman and was ready to state again (Hear), and, .if wrong, to. tion m . 1 Ile first of these commissions was issued in 180th ,-. might believe him when he said that he cared but little for renounce them. (Hear, hear.) But it was premature late . st i _ _ . . . %laced, in six )ears, 14 reports. The second coo" himself, if he could protect the country from those scenes to enter into that discussion now (" Hear," and ' Oh !) and P f _